# This is HUGE - US makes all American workers in semiconductor tech in China, resign?



## mike7877

https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/chinas-semiconductor-industry-rocked-by-us-export-controls/news-story/a5b46fb3cfd2651be23a549c38b3e2d6



Thoughts?

Mine? Wow


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## Darkpriest667

Nowhere in the story does it say that. Also it's against the 14th amendment to threaten to revoke US citizenship


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## Malinkadink

Darkpriest667 said:


> Nowhere in the story does it say that. Also it's against the 14th amendment to threaten to revoke US citizenship


As if the U.S. govt doesn't have a history of violating the very laws they create lol

My thoughts are a lot of the things U.S. accuses China of being or doing they've already done themselves, double standards is all.


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## matthew87

USA just setting itself up to allow Taiwan to be taken by the Chinese.

Right now the USA semiconductor industry is dependant on South Korean and Taiwanese foundries for leading edge chip fab.

This poses a risk to not only the global and USA economy, but also militarily. The USA certainly do not want the likes of the Chinese or Russians being able to get their hands on leading edge semiconductors to power their militaries and weapons.

As someone who works in the Defence industry, while I can't talk about what I do or see for a living, I can say semiconductor security is one area the USA are taking damn seriously and rightly so. If Taiwan falls and the Chinese got their hands on TSMC's foundries and tech, so too the customer IP that TSMC hold such as that from Nvidia, QUALCOMM, Apple and AMD, there's both significant economic damage but also military risk to this.


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## th3illusiveman

crazy how important TSMC is to Taiwan.


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## iamjanco

th3illusiveman said:


> crazy how important TSMC is to Taiwan.


crazy how important TSMC is to much of the Western World.


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## Blameless

https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/about-bis/newsroom/press-releases/3158-2022-10-07-bis-press-release-advanced-computing-and-semiconductor-manufacturing-controls-final/file





Darkpriest667 said:


> Nowhere in the story does it say that. Also it's against the 14th amendment to threaten to revoke US citizenship


There is no threat to revoke US citizenship. There is a threat of federal prison for US citizens who continue to support Chinese businesses with their expertise in these areas. In practice the new export controls will force many American employees of Chinese semiconductor and related firms to resign or renounce their citizenship.



Malinkadink said:


> As if the U.S. govt doesn't have a history of violating the very laws they create lol


In this case, that's not required. The 14th Amendment doesn't protect anyone from the consequences of violating federal law.

The de jure consequence of violating the new export controls is being charged with a federal crime. The de facto result of is that almost any American who could possibly be in a position to violate points 7 & 8 of the new rule mention will have to choose what they value more, US citizenship or their job. Not many are going to go with option C, which is keep working illegally and become a fugitive.



iamjanco said:


> crazy how important TSMC is to much of the Western World.


The world.

Prime case of over concentration of resources and a lack of meaningful competition leading to single points of failure for broad swaths of the global economy...and the natural result of blatantly favoring efficiency over resiliency for decades.


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## PhotonFanatic

Malinkadink said:


> As if the U.S. govt doesn't have a history of violating the very laws they create lol
> 
> My thoughts are a lot of the things U.S. accuses China of being or doing they've already done themselves, double standards is all.


They are definitely not afraid to lose in court, and have their decisions reversed while being made to look foolish and evil. Meanwhile, the person they persecuted goes through 8 years of misery.


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## LazyGamer

TSMC is competing on bleeding-edge technology _and price_. Consider that Intel is fabbing their ARC GPUs there instead of setting up their own fab line - right now, Intel needs its fabs for CPUs, and CPUs are more valuable to them, of course.

But Intel is setting up new foundries quickly and they're far from the only ones.


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## Section31

mike7877 said:


> https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/chinas-semiconductor-industry-rocked-by-us-export-controls/news-story/a5b46fb3cfd2651be23a549c38b3e2d6
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Mine? Wow


It won't really matter lol. Read further into the matter, most of the employees in question are of chinese descent so basically it's unlikely they will resign unless they are the pure overseas chinese group (born and raised overseas). The mainland group is very loyal to China. It's more likely they give up US citizenship and avoid worldwide taxation.

It'll only be interesting for the pure overseas chinese group that never actually had strong connections to China (born and grew up overseas and effectively westernized). Will that group give up western citizenship for china citizen. That will be to seen.

Hint: There are many of chinese descent who hold US citizenship (by birth,etc) but never lived or work in the United States for long periods of time. The ones i knew gave up US citizenship to avoid worldwide taxation and future inheritance tax. In Canada, i think some would too but there's the non-resident rule so they go the non-resident route and there's no inheritance tax here. The days of individuals holding dual and triple nationalities are going to end pretty soon.


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## Section31

Blameless said:


> https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/about-bis/newsroom/press-releases/3158-2022-10-07-bis-press-release-advanced-computing-and-semiconductor-manufacturing-controls-final/file
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no threat to revoke US citizenship. There is a threat of federal prison for US citizens who continue to support Chinese businesses with their expertise in these areas. In practice the new export controls will force many American employees of Chinese semiconductor and related firms to resign or renounce their citizenship.
> 
> 
> 
> In this case, that's not required. The 14th Amendment doesn't protect anyone from the consequences of violating federal law.
> 
> The de jure consequence of violating the new export controls is being charged with a federal crime. The de facto result of is that almost any American who could possibly be in a position to violate points 7 & 8 of the new rule mention will have to choose what they value more, US citizenship or their job. Not many are going to go with option C, which is keep working illegally and become a fugitive.
> 
> 
> 
> The world.
> 
> Prime case of over concentration of resources and a lack of meaningful competition leading to single points of failure for broad swaths of the global economy...and the natural result of blatantly favoring efficiency over resiliency for decades.


That guy kind of got it wrong too. Most of the us citizens working in china tech sector are probably of chinese descent. So it really depends on personal and family decision if they want to stay in China or return to USA. The executives/managers they hire of non-ethnic chinese though will probably leave China. Though there already is an trend of them leaving. 

The trend of overseas chinese going back to China for employment opportunities, etc hasn't stopped. The overseas group are pure economic sojouners in general, we go wherever we can make an nice living with many economic opportunities. Though again that is personal decision and lot of thought process goes into it. Not every overseas chinese is suitable for china and its work culture unfortunately (lot depends how westernized you are).


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## 1Kaz

This puts pressure on China to take Taiwan. I think they are watching the Russia Ukraine war very closely because it sets precedent for what the US may do. I'm not sure the US could support the burden of 2 wars at once, but Britain and Australia seem a lot more concerned about China than Russia... Australia has been building nuclear subs for a while.


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## LazyGamer

1Kaz said:


> I'm not sure the US could support the burden of 2 wars at once


Supporting Ukraine is like... a _hobby_ for the US. From an industrial, economic, and intelligence standpoint, the US is making bank - and that all before doing it because it's the right thing to do.

China isn't ready to take Taiwan today. In five years, they might appear to be ready on paper, but that's five more years for the US and allies to work on counters. Further - China only gets one chance. They fail, and they give the rest of the world the grounds to recognize Taiwan's sovereignty and will find the island nation now defended as well as Japan and South Korea are both with indigenous forces and with allied forces.

And China doesn't want that. Might also cost their relationship with Vietnam too, supposing they don't simultaneously march south in anticipation. They'll see themselves surrounded and isolated much as Saddam's regime was after getting kicked out of Kuwait, wondering when round two was going to kick off, or perhaps like Russia will be left after the conflict at hand, only holding their nuclear ace in the hole.

Honestly, whatever economic and trade actions are taken against China now, in light of how Russia has fared in Ukraine, are likely to convince them to push any kinetic action against Taiwan another decade or two down the road.


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## matthew87

1Kaz said:


> This puts pressure on China to take Taiwan. I think they are watching the Russia Ukraine war very closely because it sets precedent for what the US may do. I'm not sure the US could support the burden of 2 wars at once, but Britain and Australia seem a lot more concerned about China than Russia... Australia has been building nuclear subs for a while.


Australia aren't building nuclear subs, they want too, but after a decade of flip-flopping between diesel electric and nuclear, they don't even have an accepted design, haven't awarded a construct for construction, yet alone begun laying a keel. Basically the previous Australian federal government wasted a decade and billions of dollars doing nothing. Australia won't have nuclear subs for at least a decade from now at the earliest given the ****show that is their submarine project. 

Australia also don't have the nuclear expertise or capabilities to manufacture their own nuclear submarines without assistance from allies such as UK, USA, France etc.


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## Blameless

1Kaz said:


> This puts pressure on China to take Taiwan.


Taking Taiwan via military force for the purposes of securing TSMC expertise/foundries would be like running down someone with your car to try to steal the very fragile box of glassware they're carrying.

I don't know how a conflict over Taiwan would play out, but I'm pretty sure that whatever was left of TSMC's Taiwanese assets when the dust settled wouldn't be worth much to anyone.


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## th3illusiveman

Blameless said:


> Taking Taiwan via military force for the purposes of securing TSMC expertise/foundries would be like running down someone with your car to try to steal the very fragile box of glassware they're carrying.
> 
> I don't know how a conflict over Taiwan would play out, but I'm pretty sure that whatever was left of TSMC's Taiwanese assets when the dust settled wouldn't be worth much to anyone.


Good point. After HK, i doubt the talent at TSMC would stick around in the country if taken over when they could migrate to the states on golden parachutes into intels arms. A company is only as good as the people it keeps.


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## LazyGamer

th3illusiveman said:


> Good point. After HK, i doubt the talent at TSMC would stick around in the country if taken over when they could migrate to the states on golden parachutes into intels arms. A company is only as good as the people it keeps.


Well, that, and that they have the foundries rigged to destruct. Also pretty sure that those folks could write their own ticket to wherever they'd want to work in civilized Asia, NA, or EU.


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## SpartanVXL

Yea don't bother with reading anything seriously from news.com.au


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## mike7877

SpartanVXL said:


> Yea don't bother with reading anything seriously from news.com.au


Of course not, but most events are usually accurate. Analyses, though, are another thing completely.


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## mike7877

th3illusiveman said:


> Good point. After HK, i doubt the talent at TSMC would stick around in the country if taken over when they could migrate to the states on golden parachutes into intels arms. A company is only as good as the people it keeps.


If they were taken over for their engineering abilities, the engineers would be prevented from leaving.
Just as the owners of all the semiconductor manufacturing machines would be prevented from reappropriating their property.

The West doesn't want China to advance their war-gaming using AI - that's why this is happening.

Everything after Sandy Bridge (so Ivy Bridge, they specifically mention 22nm and FinFET, and every smaller FinFET node after - presumably Intels and others) is the intellectual property they're trying to preserve. 

For some reason I'm surprised China's most advanced nano-scale semiconductors are planar


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## Zfast4y0u

LazyGamer said:


> Well, that, and that they have the foundries rigged to destruct.


ofc they have, you dont really expect if in theory china attacks and takes over taiwan, that those foundries would be intact and standing? I would drop god damn nuke on em, just to make sure chinese dosent get anything. However I dont think anytime soon china will try anything, all their economics depend on western countries coorporations, they themselfs dont produce anything, they just assembly for us, if they decide to go hitler like russians atm do, we can pull all that stuff back and kill their economy.


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