# The Quad Rad Roundup



## pc-illiterate

thanks for all the hard work involved with this. im sure we all appreciate it more than you will ever realize or know.


----------



## VSG

Thanks! So far everything I've tested has been for the big TX10-D build so if nothing else, I know now what to use where with the specific components I have. Depending on my time and money (and of course manufacturer interest), I may well add to this with other rads also.

Edit: Can you guys read all the test result plots correctly? I am not sure why but the images seem to have been downsized literally on my monitor here despite it being ok on a few other places..


----------



## hiarc

Awesome work! I was looking forward to when this would show up.









One minor issue; if possible, could you upload higher res graphs so that they are more clearly readable?


----------



## VSG

Yeah I am not sure what's going on with the graphs. It's fine in other places but here and LTT where they host the images themselves, it's the same issue. I will try again or just put up links to the full images soon.


----------



## derickwm

Excellent work man!


----------



## CaliLife17

Amazing work VSG! Glad too see the GTX Nemesis being right there on top, just ordered 5 of them for my next build. I think this will be very helpful to a lot of people. +Rep


----------



## rexr0d

@geggeg that must have been exhausting!

Thanks man! Really awesome work.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaliLife17*
> 
> Amazing work VSG! Glad too see the GTX Nemesis being right there on top, just ordered 5 of them for my next build. I think this will be very helpful to a lot of people. +Rep


Yeah, the whole point of the Nemesis rads as per their marketing was the optimization to work at low-high fan speeds. Definitely seems to have worked. 5 more Nemesis rads though, that's a lot!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> @geggeg that must have been exhausting!
> 
> Thanks man! Really awesome work.


Hah you have no idea. Stren pointed out if I had done multiple runs and that's when I realized I hadn't mentioned that I had done each measurement twice just to be sure. There was no change but always good to be sure!


----------



## Nnimrod

have my babies


----------



## CaliLife17

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Yeah, the whole point of the Nemesis rads as per their marketing was the optimization to work at low-high fan speeds. Definitely seems to have worked. 5 more Nemesis rads though, that's a lot!


LOL ya the 900D just became too small for me, so bumped up to a Gunmetal STH10. I will be housing 2x 560's, 1x 480, 1x 360, and 1x240. I really wish the top part could fit 560 rads without modding, but oh well, already have 2 480s in my 900D.

I am really hapy to see they do great with Range, as no matter what RPM speed you are at, they perform very well. This was a great roundup, and I think it is time you take a vacation


----------



## rexr0d

@geggeg, how do you explain the much much slimmer Nemesis GTS keeping up with the RX and then beating it?

Given how cramp cases can get, it doesn't make any more sense to use larger radiators. I mean if I'm going to get a bigger rad it better justify its place in my case. Right?


----------



## VSG

I think it's both the Nemesis rads being optimized to scale with fan speeds and the RX V3 being quite optimized for lower fan speeds. The GTS has a higher fin density also, and uses thinner fins as well. As I said, there are multiple factors that contribute to thermal performance and one cannot base it on thickness and FPI alone anymore.


----------



## rexr0d

The best range for me is anything from 800 rpm - 1600 rpm. At 2000 RPM maybe on a really hot day, but that's the limit for noise before it gets irritating for me.

The only thing the RX has going for it is the price. It doesn't make sense putting a rad that big and only have it doing well at the lowest fan speeds.

So if it is about price and performance the NEMESIS GTS appears to be best bang for the buck and the GTX an indulgence moving up. The bonus is that it is a much smaller rad too.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> The best range for me is anything from 800 rpm - 1600 rpm. At 2000 RPM maybe on a really hot day, but that's the limit for noise before it gets irritating for me.
> 
> The only thing the RX has going for it is the price. It doesn't make sense putting a rad that big and only have it doing well at the lowest fan speeds.
> 
> So if it is about price and performance the NEMESIS GTS appears to be best bang for the buck and the GTX an indulgence moving up. The bonus is that it is a much smaller rad too.


Note that the results I have at these fan speeds may not be indicative of what you get unless everything is the same (especially the fans). Don't quote performance and fan speeds alone especially when different fans have different airflow and noise profiles. Also remember that the RX has 2 extra ports which is something that the Nemesis rads don't. Judge the entire package together









Edit: Another thing is that the temperature sensors have their own limitations. If there are two rads within 0.5 C of each other, I really wouldn't take that as a legitimate argument to go with a particular rad just based on thermal performance.


----------



## Wolfsbora

It's great to finally see your hard work!! Great write-up, VSG!


----------



## JackNaylorPE

Suggestions / Requests:

Add to cheat sheet"

1. No. of Ports
2. Rad Depth

The second would help in reviewing the results as both fin density and rad depth **can** add cooling capability but the fans need more "oomph" to push it thru.

Question..... I first saw the matte finish discussed in one of Bill Owen's reviews and I both liked (appearance) and disliked (thermals) it at the same time. Looking at the numbers, it becomes readily obvious that the cooling by the rad, and by that I mean the fins, takes care of the majority of the heat load, but that leaves a substantial amount that is tossed off my radiation from rad shroud,s block surfaces, tubing, component surfaces, backplates, etc..... seems to me that this thick coating would "insulate" the transfer of heat in this manner. Did you notice or measure lower surface temps on the rads with the matte finish ?


----------



## VSG

Good idea. I am not sure if rad depth alone is sufficient. One thing I haven't mentioned in there is once I opened up the AX480 and saw the core by itself, I realized that the frame dimensions don't indicate how much of it the actual core is. If you look at the dimensions above, then some rads have done a better job of fitting in a core in a smaller space but then again others may well have more length and breadth of the core for the same outer dimensions. It's hard to explain this in just writing, but without having access to the actual cores in each case, it's mostly just a hypothesis backed by the visible core sizes.

Radiation through air or even the rad frame really shouldn't be a major factor at these temps. Forced convection is by far the dominant heat transfer mechanism. But no, I haven't tested this so I can't rule it out completely.


----------



## opt33

Thanks for sharing, I think that is first testing Ive seen with new rads...and really nice job with data and testing, that is a lot of work. And the black ice nemesis does look like a good all around rad at all fan speeds.


----------



## rexr0d

In no particular order. My check list.
1. Performance
2. Quality
3. Size
4. Price

Really doesn't make sense to put a Monsta when 95% of the time fans are at under 2000 rpm.

Or in this case the RX since it only shines are very very very low rpms and even then its not a worthwhile lead and costs $122.
http://www.performance-pcs.com/xspc-rx480-quad-fan-radiator-v3-black.html

The Nemesis 480 GTS is under $100.
http://www.performance-pcs.com/black-ice-nemesis-480gts-ultra-stealth-u-flow-low-profile-radiator.html

Top ports don't justify the price/size difference. The Nemesis 480 GTX is still too pricey for me.

geggeg would the larger rads show more scaling up better if more heat is applied?


----------



## WhiteWulfe

Many thanks for doing this, and doubly so for adding in some of the things I had asked about! ^_^

I'm especially glad to see that the Nemesis GTS holds out with the GTX at very low fan speeds. What was especially revealing to me was that with the particular fans you used to compare things is that the GTS is outperforming the Coolstream PE's by a noticeable margin (5.5C at 600rpm, and 4.5C at 800rpm), and this (in combination with reading that the case I was looking to put the GTS radiators into you ~really~ want to go with 30mm as the thickest radiators so you can fit pumps and whatnot in there) pretty much helped me decide as to exactly which radiators I'll be going with for my djing rig. It's also nice to see that with that particular combination the Nemesis GTS still outperforms the 480PE even at 1800rpm fan speeds, which is definitely a lovely thing given that their pricing is so similar!

Also great to see that the Nemesis GTS radiators come with screw protectors, PLUS the fact that the Nemesis GTX line has offset channels so even if you do muck things up you won't be dealing with a water leak.

Once again, many many many MANY thanks!


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> geggeg would the larger rads show more scaling up better if more heat is applied?


If anything, the differences should be exaggerated further. I think the amount of heat in the loop is sufficient to not be a bottleneck in scaling as it is.


----------



## rexr0d

Been sitting on the fence for my next build for the longest time and you just tipped me over. Am going with a Nemesis GTS.

@geggeg bro, thank you!







:


----------



## pc-illiterate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hiarc*
> 
> One minor issue; if possible, could you upload higher res graphs so that they are more clearly readable?


right click the images and click view image. its almost a pain but they will show full size, or at least bigger.


----------



## fast_fate

Plenty of hard work done here - Nice Work








Are you going to post the data into the Test Thread ?

Any chance of showing your data collection ?
and out of curiosity, how long was it taking approximately for the coolant temps to equalize before data collection began.
Some of my test are taking over 60 minutes to equalize








Here's how I'm recording, and using the 15 minute average of the virtual temp sensors (colored box's) for the data figures.
I'm in the same boat as you - using fan rpm, rather than air flow, still valuable data I reckon.

Using a heater has the advantage of controlling the power load, unlike using a running system (which I did try first but retired it pretty quick)
Knowing the power load then enables you to begin the watts dissipated part of the data bank.
Go for the aquarium heater set up if you're considering more testing - a 300 watt is plenty....
as I doubt any rad will remove 300 watt in single pass, so the coolant temp will always rise until the coolant temp equalizates and your test period can commence.


EDIT: +1 Rep for you Sir


----------



## Angrychair

RX480 so good at low rpm for price hard to be yes? Even at high rpm the difference between radiators drops to just a few degrees. All are very good!


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fast_fate*
> 
> Plenty of hard work done here - Nice Work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you going to post the data into the Test Thread ?
> 
> Any chance of showing your data collection ?
> and out of curiosity, how long was it taking approximately for the coolant temps to equalize before data collection began.
> Some of my test are taking over 60 minutes to equalize
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's how I'm recording, and using the 15 minute average of the virtual temp sensors (colored box's) for the data figures.
> I'm in the same boat as you - using fan rpm, rather than air flow, still valuable data I reckon.
> 
> Using a heater has the advantage of controlling the power load, unlike using a running system (which I did try first but retired it pretty quick)
> Knowing the power load then enables you to begin the watts dissipated part of the data bank.
> Go for the aquarium heater set up if you're considering more testing - a 300 watt is plenty....
> as I doubt any rad will remove 300 watt in single pass, so the coolant temp will always rise until the coolant temp equalizates and your test period can commence.
> 
> 
> EDIT: +1 Rep for you Sir


+1

FF did a ton of work trying to get a system to work, and it was hard to get it to be repeatable and accurate which is why I was PMing you about your setup. Luckily FF is a stubborn sort and persevering and now has an awesome setup just for this. I think the isolated chamber to control ambient (and shielding from external air currents) really helps, particularly if your temperature sensors aren't calibrated, but you'd be surprised still how much using a full system as a heat load can really screw with results. You can estimate power dissipated in your rads by logging water in/out temps and flow, and if that isn't close to your measured input power to the loop then your system just isn't accurate enough. What I mean by that is that the power being dissipated through the radiator is not what you thought it was, and that can vary from rad to rad leading to an unfair test. The problem is that you don't really know your input power to the system so you can never know how accurate your measurement was. You know it measures 850W approx at the wall, but how much of that power/heat is actually dumped to the loop vs ambients? Then you have the issue of where are your ambients measured. How many sensors do you have, how close to the radiator are they? Your chamber is controlled, but how well is that air circulating inside. If it's moving quickly then other components inside the chamber will then get cooled by the airflow, if it's not you'll get local pockets of air that might take a long time to settle. If you leave the computer actually outside the heat chamber then the coolant is still subject to ambient variation even if you insulate your tubes. Heat from the loop is also lost to the ambient air by other components that are not the radiator - you'd be surprised just how much can be lost that way. We assume that it's the same for each radiator because all those things are held constant. But in reality each radiator gets a different air flow through it, and a different coolant delta because of it's performance. Repeatability of a test of course does not necessarily mean accuracy, it's merely the first step







I think

This sounds like I'm being incredibly harsh and kind of a jerk, which is not my intention. This is good testing, far better than any other user reviews. In reality nobody's loop is held in those kind of quarantine conditions that we like to test radiators in, so there is something to be said for a good shot at an apples to apples comparison. Relative numbers should still be decent despite all of this and it's good to see some correlation between the 560 and 480 set. No one however should take these numbers and compare to another reviewers numbers though. You can only really compare within one roundup while knowing that if your fan setup is different then everything changes. Repeatability is a very good thing too, let's not forget that. With the multiple runs are you publishing the average or best? That's a loaded question though that someone will always say you chose the wrong answer on







Personally I would average, but also plot out the error between each run for each rad just to show which if any data sets are suspect or not.

I also agree that while CFM through the rad is really what you care about, it becomes useless to the end user. No one actually goes and measures CFM through their radiator with their choice of fan, and every fan/radiator combo will have a different result vs rpm. End users start to look at BS CFM specs that manufacturer's publish rather than finding data on CFM through a radiator. Martin did excellent work on that with one radiator, but a low fpi and high fpi rad will respond differently of course to each fan depending on static pressure. Then you have to worry about push or pull or both. It becomes impractical and reviews should be helpful and practical. So I'm glad you didn't go down that path of crazytown.

On to flow rate- there is nothing wrong with 1gpm, though I dispute that everybody measures their flow rate after setting up their loop. I haven't seen many users actually measure their flow rate, I think people guestimate how much pump to use which is not bad but it does mean that the choice of a slightly more or less restrictive radiator will affect the end users loop. Again there is no right answer to this question, because everyone's loop is different and the effect of a restriction change on that loop will be different because of it. Whichever way you do it you either favor high restriction radiators or low restriction radiators. The real answer is to see how they perform vs flow.

The monsta result is strange simply because it goes through a transition - you expect there to be some kind of consistent curve that approaches infinite coolant temps at 0 rpm, while bottoming out at some minimum coolant temp at some point before infinite rpm. Possibly a transition from linear to turbulent air flow is my only thought on explaining this, though I believe you'd see worse performance during that transition. This one I would definitely retest to make sure.

My last comment would be to post a pic of the test setup, it's always good for people to see how things worked without asking stupid questions to try and find out what you did. Pics make up for a thousand words







Oh and your airflow plots are almost impossible to distinguish which line is which because there are no markers and the colors are similar









So overall good job, I'm quite surprised how well those nemesis gtx rads do across the range of fan speed. Normally there is a trade off, but this seems very well balanced compared to the others.


----------



## fast_fate

Quote:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> FF did a ton of work trying to get a system to work, and it was hard to get it to be repeatable and accurate which is why I was PMing you about your setup. Luckily FF is a stubborn sort and persevering and now has an awesome setup just for this. I think the isolated chamber to control ambient (and shielding from external air currents) really helps, particularly if your temperature sensors aren't calibrated, but you'd be surprised still how much using a full system as a heat load can really screw with results. You can estimate power dissipated in your rads by logging water in/out temps and flow, and if that isn't close to your measured input power to the loop then your system just isn't accurate enough. What I mean by that is that the power being dissipated through the radiator is not what you thought it was, and that can vary from rad to rad leading to an unfair test. The problem is that you don't really know your input power to the system so you can never know how accurate your measurement was. You know it measures 850W approx at the wall, but how much of that power/heat is actually dumped to the loop vs ambients? Then you have the issue of where are your ambients measured. How many sensors do you have, how close to the radiator are they? Your chamber is controlled, but how well is that air circulating inside. If it's moving quickly then other components inside the chamber will then get cooled by the airflow, if it's not you'll get local pockets of air that might take a long time to settle. If you leave the computer actually outside the heat chamber then the coolant is still subject to ambient variation even if you insulate your tubes. Heat from the loop is also lost to the ambient air by other components that are not the radiator - you'd be surprised just how much can be lost that way. We assume that it's the same for each radiator because all those things are held constant. But in reality each radiator gets a different air flow through it, and a different coolant delta because of it's performance. Repeatability of a test of course does not necessarily mean accuracy, it's merely the first step
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think
> 
> This sounds like I'm being incredibly harsh and kind of a jerk, which is not my intention. This is good testing, far better than any other user reviews. In reality nobody's loop is held in those kind of quarantine conditions that we like to test radiators in, so there is something to be said for a good shot at an apples to apples comparison. Relative numbers should still be decent despite all of this and it's good to see some correlation between the 560 and 480 set. No one however should take these numbers and compare to another reviewers numbers though. You can only really compare within one roundup while knowing that if your fan setup is different then everything changes. Repeatability is a very good thing too, let's not forget that. With the multiple runs are you publishing the average or best? That's a loaded question though that someone will always say you chose the wrong answer on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I would average, but also plot out the error between each run for each rad just to show which if any data sets are suspect or not.
> 
> I also agree that while CFM through the rad is really what you care about, it becomes useless to the end user. No one actually goes and measures CFM through their radiator with their choice of fan, and every fan/radiator combo will have a different result vs rpm. End users start to look at BS CFM specs that manufacturer's publish rather than finding data on CFM through a radiator. Martin did excellent work on that with one radiator, but a low fpi and high fpi rad will respond differently of course to each fan depending on static pressure. Then you have to worry about push or pull or both. It becomes impractical and reviews should be helpful and practical. So I'm glad you didn't go down that path of crazytown.
> 
> On to flow rate- there is nothing wrong with 1gpm, though I dispute that everybody measures their flow rate after setting up their loop. I haven't seen many users actually measure their flow rate, I think people guestimate how much pump to use which is not bad but it does mean that the choice of a slightly more or less restrictive radiator will affect the end users loop. Again there is no right answer to this question, because everyone's loop is different and the effect of a restriction change on that loop will be different because of it. Whichever way you do it you either favor high restriction radiators or low restriction radiators. The real answer is to see how they perform vs flow.
> 
> The monsta result is strange simply because it goes through a transition - you expect there to be some kind of consistent curve that approaches infinite coolant temps at 0 rpm, while bottoming out at some minimum coolant temp at some point before infinite rpm. Possibly a transition from linear to turbulent air flow is my only thought on explaining this, though I believe you'd see worse performance during that transition. This one I would definitely retest to make sure.
> 
> My last comment would be to post a pic of the test setup, it's always good for people to see how things worked without asking stupid questions to try and find out what you did. Pics make up for a thousand words
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and your airflow plots are almost impossible to distinguish which line is which because there are no markers and the colors are similar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So overall good job, I'm quite surprised how well those nemesis gtx rads do across the range of fan speed. Normally there is a trade off, but this seems very well balanced compared to the others.


Yep - without the ability to have stabilized ambient temps this testing is impossible.
Any changes in ambient temp (air in for rad) has an instant effect on the average air in temps which destroys the data set for the test.
The actual ambient temp doesn't matter - but the stability of that temp is crucial.

and as mentioned, a heat/power load which is constant is essential for accurate data.
If that constant heat/power load can then be applied to the coolant without loss to environment from components/fittings in the test loop, things start to get _really_ accurate.


----------



## rexr0d

@geggeg, what is a "hotbox" exactly? Is this like a climate chamber?


----------



## bond32

All this awesome data and testing has me all giddy this morning... Can't give out rep fast enough!


----------



## VSG

@fast_fate: Of course, but posting everything there again seems redundant. What about just the test results (after the rad overviews section)?

It took about 30min on average with some cases like the Monsta taking longer, but I was also multitasking at the same time doing restriction tests on other rads so it wasn't bad. The data was manually recorded because I can't bring in a camera to this lab (for obvious reasons of IP, not my primary lab) and so I have a bunch of excel sheets that I filled in with my numbers later. Most of those numbers are on the sheets, and I can provide them for the liquid/air flow tests also.

Yeah I am still in two minds about water heater with set load vs components- it would make things a LOT easier inside but I am not sure 300W is enough with quad rads for it to not be a bottleneck. You took it even further and measured thermal performance at different flow rates also, that's incredible and a well deserved +1

@stren: Heh, not taking anything like you think- that post just shows how much you take things seriously and that's why I usually adopt your standards whenever possible. Thanks for the time to post that. As I said above, I can't take a picture of that actual unit nor the insulation used but the hot box is essentially a lab glove box which was modified a decade or so ago when there was a ton of money flowing in from NASA and Congress. It can monitor temps, O2 levels, Rh, substitute the atmosphere inside from air to N2 to Ar (to anything else really if you just change the cylinder outside) or even run at vacuum (not a lot, but comes in very handy for some experiments not related to this). The sensors are placed in each corner as well as a floating point sensor for temps and humidity that I can maneuver around and this was the one I used mostly because I could locate it close to the fan intake but far away enough to not affect the fan's performance. As far as the insulation goes, it is very similar to what I used here in another setup:







So in theory I can also heat up the sleeving to provide heat as mentioned in the first post but nowhere enough to use as a primary heat source. Good point about the Monsta, I will check it out. As far as the similar lines go, having 3 rads that are pretty much the same don't help. I tried out different combination and having the points in there made things worse from overlapping over other points as well









@rexr0d: Yeah, pretty much.


----------



## rexr0d

@geggeg, how did you get access to a climate chamber for all that testing? What is it that you do?!!


----------



## VSG

I am a grad student in an engineering/science section. This particular hotbox is never used and is in a lab where the PI (primary investigator) is a very nice person and a collaborator. So it wasn't hard getting permission to use this.


----------



## fast_fate

Yeah, just the data is what I think we need in the test thread, that's all I'm doing with my results atm.
I like your reviews but, that's best in your _round up_ I reckon.

If you could do a separate post in the test thread for each rad, that would be great, and make it easier for me to keep the Index in order.
Don't forget to link to your round up for reader's who want more than just the data








If you're happy to screen shot the data sheets and post them also - some reader's might find it interesting and useful - I know I'ld like to have a gander









I'll try a 480 over the weekend, to see how 300 Watt goes - I'm reasonably confident that it should work fine (at the 1750 max rpm I'm testing to)

Cheers.
And again - great stuff !!!


----------



## VSG

Yeah, I will add it in soon (Along with the MCP50X also). I will have to re-plot for each rad individually in that case so it may not be immediate, but I will do 1 post per component if it makes things easier for you to keep track of









Let me know how the 480 holds up with the 300w, especially if you have something that scales up well with fan speeds. I had my eyes on an in-line Hydor unit but that capped out at 300w so decided to go the old fashioned route.


----------



## fast_fate

Rather than re-plot everything - can you just use the same spreadsheet, but hide other columns except the one you want to display.
Sorry - don't want to cause a ton of extra work for you, so when you can - no rush









I got an inline Hydor also - but the internal chamber messed with flow rate too much, so I settled on a tube type aquarium heater inside a EK 400 res.


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I am a grad student in an engineering/science section. This particular hotbox is never used and is in a lab where the PI (primary investigator) is a very nice person and a collaborator. So it wasn't hard getting permission to use this.


How much more creds can a dude have?


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fast_fate*
> 
> Rather than re-plot everything - can you just use the same spreadsheet, but hide other columns except the one you want to display.
> Sorry - don't want to cause a ton of extra work for you, so when you can - no rush
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got an inline Hydor also - but the internal chamber messed with flow rate too much, so I settled on a tube type aquarium heater inside a EK 400 res.


Oh yeah (Derp) I can just do that. It will be in the same scale so that's a good and bad thing. The software I use (OriginPro except for the bar graphs where it was Excel) allows me to manipulate the image itself so it will be easy.


----------



## bond32

Heck I'm an engineer and I'm jelly of your tests... So when am I coming over? Lan-party/water cooling tests soon??


----------



## stren

Nice geggeg thanks for the pics!


----------



## Silent Scone

nice work mate.

I don't like EK rads. lol sorry I know that's a complete vague and near enough pointless thing to say but I just don't. They feel cheap and rattly.

They might very much be excellent thermally


----------



## derickwm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Silent Scone*
> 
> nice work mate.
> 
> I don't like EK rads. lol sorry I know that's a complete vague and near enough pointless thing to say but I just don't. They feel cheap and rattly.
> 
> They might very much be excellent thermally


I mean how can one argue with logic like that?


----------



## Silent Scone

Don't get defensive, I use plenty of EK products...

You can't argue with rattles either


----------



## derickwm

Have we talked about rattling before? I can't recall rattling...


----------



## Silent Scone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *derickwm*
> 
> Have we talked about rattling before? I can't recall rattling...


Not personally but I'll gladly give you my RMA number(s) if you're that interested? Also the shroud screws come loose easily. No disrespect it's just not something I've ever found with other brands.

You're still king of the hill when it comes to component blocks


----------



## derickwm

I'm good


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Silent Scone*
> 
> nice work mate.
> 
> I don't like EK rads. lol sorry I know that's a complete vague and near enough pointless thing to say but I just don't. They feel cheap and rattly.
> 
> They might very much be excellent thermally


Well according to the review they're not anywhere near excellent, or poor to be fair. But aren't those rads made in China by Coolgate or something? Would explain the shoddy quality.


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Silent Scone*
> 
> Don't get defensive, I use plenty of EK products...
> 
> You can't argue with rattles either


It's EK how can they not get defensive









JK JK

Most rads are outsourced to companies in china, so quality control isn't always as high as regular products.


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stren*
> 
> It's EK how can they not get defensive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JK JK
> 
> Most rads are outsourced to companies in china, so quality control isn't always as high as regular products.


That also explains the quality on the Black Ice rads. Only company that makes their own rads it seems.


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> That also explains the quality on the Black Ice rads. Only company that makes their own rads it seems.


Watercool and AquaComputer do too - hence the very different style. Not sure about absolutely everyone else though, so I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush.


----------



## Martinm210

Great job! I was curious how those new nemesis rads performed. I expected improvements over the old generation but that is even better.

I also kind of expected the monsta to be a hig speed focused rad and it is.

My only review suggestion is the air flow line colors are hard to differentiate. Thermal results were easy to follow though and all that really matters.

Thanks for sharing!!
Martin


----------



## VSG

Thanks Martin!

Yeah, those lines in the airflow plots looked ok to me on a calibrated monitor but seeing them on a regular monitor/TV makes it hard. I didn't include the data points in there either because that messed up things further. I will see if OriginPro allows for a custom palette- I can change the individual colors but the choices are pretty gaudy. Guess they didn't consider having many different entities in a single plot


----------



## GhostHitWall

I havent done reading but this is hardworking data and analysis! Rep+


----------



## ZytheEKS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Thanks Martin!
> 
> Yeah, those lines in the airflow plots looked ok to me on a calibrated monitor but seeing them on a regular monitor/TV makes it hard. I didn't include the data points in there either because that messed up things further. I will see if OriginPro allows for a custom palette- I can change the individual colors but the choices are pretty gaudy. Guess they didn't consider having many different entities in a single plot


Great plots!
You don't need to change the colours/edit the graph, ust pull up paint and add a fat color circle in the colour of the line at the beginning of the lines.







(Can't tell the difference on them either, but I'm on my laptop so yeah)

Anyways, wow those new Nemesis rads REALLY took the gold it at low speeds... I'm surprised how well the GTS does compared to all those other ones, I wasn't expecting that from that slim of a rad. That newer XSPC unit is performing REALLY well at those low speeds. HW Labs really killed it with those new Nemesis rads, that's for sure.

-Z


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZytheEKS*
> 
> Great plots!
> You don't need to change the colours/edit the graph, ust pull up paint and add a fat color circle in the colour of the line at the beginning of the lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Can't tell the difference on them either, but I'm on my laptop so yeah)
> 
> Anyways, wow those new Nemesis rads REALLY took the gold it at low speeds... I'm surprised how well the GTS does compared to all those other ones, I wasn't expecting that from that slim of a rad. That newer XSPC unit is performing REALLY well at those low speeds. HW Labs really killed it with those new Nemesis rads, that's for sure.
> 
> -Z


The EK PE and both XSPC AX rads have pretty much the same line though


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stren*
> 
> Watercool and AquaComputer do too - hence the very different style. Not sure about absolutely everyone else though, so I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush.


Do they? I somewhat thought they machined some parts and slapped them on cooling coils. Very purty.

Though they are bulky and and inefficient. At least compared to other rads.


----------



## seross69

Love thos thanx


----------



## netdevil

This is a lot of effort and amazing work, good job + rep ! now gonna change that old RX480 for a slim GTS


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *netdevil*
> 
> This is a lot of effort and amazing work, good job + rep ! now gonna change that old RX480 for a slim GTS


Why is this, if I may ask? While I have no experience with the RX480 V1 (assuming that's what you meant), it shouldn't be that difference performance wise to justify a replacement. What other factors are you considering here? The thinner profile? The looks? Genuinely curious what factors people consider when getting something.


----------



## netdevil

Yes that is exactly what I have on the floor of my TJ07. I agree with exactly what you have just said on performance not being worth the change. My opinion is merely preference and its exactly your data that made me realised i could have much more room with a thinner GTS without sacrificing much performance. Thats gonna make it alot easier for maintenace removing those fittings in a cramped space.


----------



## VSG

Cheers, that's a pretty good justification


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *netdevil*
> 
> Yes that is exactly what I have on the floor of my TJ07. I agree with exactly what you have just said on performance not being worth the change. My opinion is merely preference and its exactly your data that made me realised i could have much more room with a thinner GTS without sacrificing much performance. Thats gonna make it alot easier for maintenace removing those fittings in a cramped space.


That's because the Nemesis rads brougth the sexy back.


----------



## Kommz13

Thanks a lot ! I ve been waiting for a nemesis review for so long ! time to change my old RX














+rep


----------



## JambonJovi

Crazy amount of work. REP+


----------



## rexr0d

@geggeg would you happen to have an estimate ratings of each rad based on C/W?

It might help some of us to know what to expect if we add more things into our loop.


----------



## VSG

Without knowing exactly how much wattage was being dissipated, I can't calculate that unfortunately.


----------



## ZytheEKS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Without knowing exactly how much wattage was being dissipated, I can't calculate that unfortunately.


What are the chances you could add the GTS Nemy X-FLow to that list? It'd be history making to finally have a solid GTS vs GTS XFlow comparison. XD

-Z


----------



## pc-illiterate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZytheEKS*
> 
> What are the chances you could add the GTS Nemy X-FLow to that list? It'd be history making to finally have a solid GTS vs GTS XFlow comparison. XD
> 
> -Z


You mean I'm not the only one going to snag 1 of those x-flows? Bet it runs as well as the dual pass...


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZytheEKS*
> 
> What are the chances you could add the GTS Nemy X-FLow to that list? It'd be history making to finally have a solid GTS vs GTS XFlow comparison. XD
> 
> -Z


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pc-illiterate*
> 
> You mean I'm not the only one going to snag 1 of those x-flows? Bet it runs as well as the dual pass...


I spoke to HWL about this (not necessarily me doing the rests). He said, and I paraphrase, that the X-Flows should have better flow performance given ~1/2 the pressure drop of the U-Flows. Also, since it is one-pass coolant, the coolant mean residence times are also lower, roughly 10-15% less by their experience.

It's a conundrum of sorts here- you want to have a high overall flowrate, especially in CPU and GPU blocks, but want to a higher residence time in the rads to get more heat transfer done (all within suitable ranges of effectiveness of course). So while that doesn't help the case of the X-Flow much, depending on how the rest of the loop can take advantage of the overall better flow rates it may well even out as well. So testing out an X-Flow vs U-Flow is a lot more dependent on overall system components/restriction than just the radiator itself.


----------



## DemiseGR

Excellent review, thank you for taking the time to go through it all.

I am curious as for the results of the Monsta480 in particular, given that its the only 80+mm rad and provides with screws for push-pull to be used. The graph of air flow restriction had me thinking that it would under perform the rest unless you ramped the RPM up, however i think It would be quite interesting to see a push-pull comparison of the 480rads for the varying fan speeds.

keep up the good work!


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DemiseGR*
> 
> Excellent review, thank you for taking the time to go through it all.
> 
> I am curious as for the results of the Monsta480 in particular, given that its the only 80+mm rad and provides with screws for push-pull to be used. The graph of air flow restriction had me thinking that it would under perform the rest unless you ramped the RPM up, however i think It would be quite interesting to see a push-pull comparison of the 480rads for the varying fan speeds.
> 
> keep up the good work!


Yeah, I have decided to do a push vs pull vs push-pull test on a slim, high FPI rad (undecided) and a thick, low FPI rad (Monsta). These extreme cases will likely benefit from push-pull more than others, and doing this for all the rads will take forever


----------



## DemiseGR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Yeah, I have decided to do a push vs pull vs push-pull test on a slim, high FPI rad (undecided) and a thick, low FPI rad (Monsta). These extreme cases will likely benefit from push-pull more than others, and doing this for all the rads will take forever


hehe cool, awaiting that thread









you would expect a higher difference for high FPI and/or thick rads, no need to go through all of em, especially since you already proven some rads are almost identical


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Without knowing exactly how much wattage was being dissipated, I can't calculate that unfortunately.


Yeah, I guess we know it's less that 850W, but it's hard to be exact about it
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Yeah, I have decided to do a push vs pull vs push-pull test on a slim, high FPI rad (undecided) and a thick, low FPI rad (Monsta). These extreme cases will likely benefit from push-pull more than others, and doing this for all the rads will take forever


Nice! Yeah radiators are possibly the worst to test in terms of not only accuracy but the number of potential variables, e.g. fan make & model, fan setup (push/pull/p&p/shroud), fan size (120/140/180 etc), number of fan mounts, air flow through the radiator (fixed or variable, controlled as cfm or rpm), water flow through the radiator (fixed or variable). So yeah it's good that you're not taking on too much, I think an example of each is a good way to go. Adding 2 fans vs 1 fan should make a big difference to performance. It's interesting to see if a "bad" radiator with 2 fans is better than a good radiator with 1 fan. I would expect it would be, and I'd expect it to push the higher FPI and thicker up in performance compared to thinner/low fpi rads.


----------



## VSG

Yeah, that's what I expect also. I will retest the Monsta at the same time just to be even more sure of those numbers- that trend was a bit jumpy.


----------



## WhiteWulfe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Yeah, I have decided to do a push vs pull vs push-pull test on a slim, high FPI rad (undecided) and a thick, low FPI rad (Monsta). These extreme cases will likely benefit from push-pull more than others, and doing this for all the rads will take forever


I vote for the nemesis gts due to total lack of bias on my end







Nope, not curious at all as to how they'll perform... ^-^;;;;;


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteWulfe*
> 
> I vote for the nemesis gts due to total lack of bias on my end
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, not curious at all as to how they'll perform... ^-^;;;;;


16 FPI is hardly high though, the AX/PE ones have 18-19 amd the Koolance/HWL Gen 2 GTX ones came in even higher.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *DemiseGR*
> 
> Excellent review, thank you for taking the time to go through it all.
> 
> I am curious as for the results of the Monsta480 in particular, given that its the only 80+mm rad and provides with screws for push-pull to be used. The graph of air flow restriction had me thinking that it would under perform the rest unless you ramped the RPM up, however i think It would be quite interesting to see a push-pull comparison of the 480rads for the varying fan speeds.
> 
> keep up the good work!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I have decided to do a push vs pull vs push-pull test on a slim, high FPI rad (undecided) and a thick, low FPI rad (Monsta). These extreme cases will likely benefit from push-pull more than others, and doing this for all the rads will take forever
Click to expand...

Nice work geggeg.

The data you've tested pretty much falls in line with my expectations. I use a Monsta in my loop too, but only part time for benching with a set of big GT's on it. Boy are they loud. Will wait your P/P results. I really dig the new HWL rads.


----------



## WhiteWulfe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> 16 FPI is hardly high though, the AX/PE ones have 18-19 amd the Koolance/HWL Gen 2 GTX ones came in even higher.


HMmm... Then both the Nemesis GTX and the PE?








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Nice work geggeg.
> 
> The data you've tested pretty much falls in line with my expectations. I use a Monsta in my loop too, but only part time for benching with a set of big GT's on it. Boy are they loud. Will wait your P/P results. I really dig the new HWL rads.


See, if other want to see more with the Nemesis rads ^_^


----------



## Puck

Huge thanks, I'm actually in the market for another 480 and this helped me choose







.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Nice work geggeg.
> 
> The data you've tested pretty much falls in line with my expectations. I use a Monsta in my loop too, but only part time for benching with a set of big GT's on it. Boy are they loud. Will wait your P/P results. I really dig the new HWL rads.












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteWulfe*
> 
> HMmm... Then both the Nemesis GTX and the PE?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, if other want to see more with the Nemesis rads ^_^


Oh you. I will see, but no promises. This isn't happening anytime soon- got another big test in the making.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Puck*
> 
> Huge thanks, I'm actually in the market for another 480 and this helped me choose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Glad it helped!


----------



## WhiteWulfe

I think it's mainly curiosity as to how much of a benefit push/pull provides to the gts as well as gtx. Not that I'm certain it's even remotely possible to do the crazy thing of push/pull Nemesis gtx in a phantom 820.

Those rads are sooooo sexy!


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteWulfe*
> 
> I think it's mainly curiosity as to how much of a benefit push/pull provides to the gts as well as gtx. Not that I'm certain it's even remotely possible to do the crazy thing of push/pull Nemesis gtx in a phantom 820.
> 
> Those rads are sooooo sexy!


My assumption, and it is just that at this point based on whatever I have read from other people's experiences with push-pull, is you can probably approximate it by the next higher fan speed rung's performance. I will think about it as I said but nothing for sure


----------



## WhiteWulfe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> My assumption, and it is just that at this point based on whatever I have read from other people's experiences with push-pull, is you can probably approximate it by the next higher fan speed rung's performance. I will think about it as I said but nothing for sure


Sounds good enough to me ^_^


----------



## JackNaylorPE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> My assumption, and it is just that at this point based on whatever I have read from other people's experiences with push-pull, is you can probably approximate it by the next higher fan speed rung's performance. I will think about it as I said but nothing for sure


Martins push / pull testing showed an increase of 21% ... that's what I used in creating the watts / rpm tables you can find here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1457426/radiator-size-estimator

However, that's for specific rad / fan combo.... IIRC, he reported elsewhere that it can range from 10 to 30%.


----------



## IT Diva

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteWulfe*
> 
> I think it's mainly curiosity as to how much of a benefit push/pull provides to the gts as well as gtx. *Not that I'm certain it's even remotely possible to do the crazy thing of push/pull Nemesis gtx in a phantom 820.
> *
> Those rads are sooooo sexy!


Without a serious mod, it's not remotely possible.



Darlene


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IT Diva*
> 
> Without a serious mod, it's not remotely possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene


That's looks like a lot of work. Might as well get a rad that performs well with one fan.

@VSG (not geggeg) would a single higher pressure and/or flow fan just be a better choice than an intake/exhaust config?


----------



## VSG

That's what the push-pull test is for









I would imagine 2 fans at lower speeds would be quieter and perform close, if not better, to a single higher speed fan- assuming the fans are the same. If different, all bets are off!


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> That's what the push-pull test is for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine 2 fans at lower speeds would be quieter and perform close, if not better, to a single higher speed fan- assuming the fans are the same. If different, all bets are off!


Adding 2 fans is almost like having an extra rad. Space not really so available in most cases.


----------



## IT Diva

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> That's what the push-pull test is for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine 2 fans at lower speeds would be quieter and perform close, if not better, to a single higher speed fan- assuming the fans are the same. If different, all bets are off!


Agreed . . .

From what my testing revealed, a pair of medium rpm / db fans in P-P beat a much faster / higher db fan for airflow thru a rad at a much lower db level.

The take away from that testing was that anytime you can fit a P-P fan setup in the space available, you'll get more airflow thru the rad and with less db overall, than a considerably bigger single fan.

Darlene


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> Adding 2 fans is almost like having an extra rad. Space not really so available in most cases.


How much space do you have available? I wonder if you can do push-pull on PE/AX series of rads.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IT Diva*
> 
> Agreed . . .
> 
> From what my testing revealed, a pair of medium rpm / db fans in P-P beat a much faster / higher db fan for airflow thru a rad at a much lower db level.
> 
> The take away from that testing was that anytime you can fit a P-P fan setup in the space available, you'll get more airflow thru the rad and with less db overall, than a considerably bigger single fan.
> 
> Darlene












I also remember your tests showing some fans aren't much better in push-pull compared to just single side as well.


----------



## IT Diva

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> Adding 2 fans is almost like having an extra rad. Space not really so available in most cases.
> 
> 
> 
> How much space do you have available? I wonder if you can do push-pull on PE/AX series of rads.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *IT Diva*
> 
> Agreed . . .
> 
> From what my testing revealed, a pair of medium rpm / db fans in P-P beat a much faster / higher db fan for airflow thru a rad at a much lower db level.
> 
> The take away from that testing was that anytime you can fit a P-P fan setup in the space available, you'll get more airflow thru the rad and with less db overall, than a considerably bigger single fan.
> 
> Darlene
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also remember your tests showing some fans aren't much better in push-pull compared to just single side as well.
Click to expand...

Yea, that was also true, there were some fans that just did not come close to hype or expectations . . .

The general gist though , was that you'd need something close to a single 4250 rpm GT to get the airflow of P-P AP-15's . . .and you know where that would be as far as the noise level desirability.

On a related note, my CFM reading anemometer got here . .

It may be time to do some fan testing, . . of particular interest, is how well the actual CFM thru a rad scales with RPM.

My prediction is that fans with lots of blades and/or overlapping blade design will scale well, while less blades and no overlap, (blasters and akasas) will not.

Darlene


----------



## JackNaylorPE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> That's what the push-pull test is for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine 2 fans at lower speeds would be quieter and perform close, if not better, to a single higher speed fan- assuming the fans are the same. If different, all bets are off!


With the 6 temp sensors, I can do a push / pull test to add to your data set ....

420mm x 46mm
280mm x 60mm

Thinking I'll measure:

420 Rad In / Out Water Temp
280 Rad In / Out Water Temp
Case Interior Temp
Ambient Air Temp
Pump Speed (1500 - 4500 in jumps of 500)
Fan RPM (400 / 600 / 800 / / 1000 /1200)

I will be doing a teardown around Thanksgiving .... gonna Blitz the rads and add new coolant.

What are you plans ? If we can coordinate the test points, data set will be bigger. Open to reconfiguring above.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JackNaylorPE*
> 
> With the 6 temp sensors, I can do a push / pull test to add to your data set ....
> 
> 420mm x 46mm
> 280mm x 60mm
> 
> Thinking I'll measure:
> 
> 420 Rad In / Out Water Temp
> 280 Rad In / Out Water Temp
> Case Interior Temp
> Ambient Air Temp
> Pump Speed (1500 - 4500 in jumps of 500)
> Fan RPM (400 / 600 / 800 / / 1000 /1200)
> 
> I will be doing a teardown around Thanksgiving .... gonna Blitz the rads and add new coolant.
> 
> What are you plans ? If we can coordinate the test points, data set will be bigger. Open to reconfiguring above.


I will PM you then this gets underway. To be honest, it won't be anytime soon so if you can do this earlier then you shouldn't wait for me- that would be great info that a lot of people, including I, will benefit from.


----------



## JackNaylorPE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I will PM you then this gets underway. To be honest, it won't be anytime soon so if you can do this earlier then you shouldn't wait for me- that would be great info that a lot of people, including I, will benefit from.


Well you have my timetable.... if ya see anything that might benefit from changing or to be added, lemme know now.... I;ll never find the post next month


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JackNaylorPE*
> 
> Well you have my timetable.... if ya see anything that might benefit from changing or to be added, lemme know now.... I;ll never find the post next month


Yup, will do


----------



## rexr0d

So when is this going to happen?


----------



## JackNaylorPE

I will finish sometimes between Turkey Day and New Years


----------



## Barefooter

I just had time to read through your review. Awesome review! Thank you again for all you do, you da Man!


----------



## VSG

Thanks for taking the time to read through, I know it's an immensely long read. If this ends up getting updated with other rads, then I will place each rad's overview in spoilers to help with the flow.


----------



## Chunky_Chimp

Giving rep here, really nice work. Any plans to incorporate the Aquacomputer Airplex Radical series when the 480s come out? It's initially dual-pass+dual-row but they'll have a dual-pass quad-row design to augment the lineup later. My eyes might not be what they used to but for further measure the Radicals appear to be 12-14FPI; if Shoggy could clarify that at some point it'd be great.







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stren*
> 
> Watercool and AquaComputer do too - hence the very different style. Not sure about absolutely everyone else though, so I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush.


Thermochill and Magicool make their own, but note that Aquacomputer rads older than the AMS series are outsourced. The rads in the newer Aquaducts are also of the older outsourced design since Shoggy told me they'd have to be completely redesigned to accommodate their in-house rad designs.


----------



## VSG

Hey C_C,

Thanks for the comments. Only @Shoggy can say for sure about the Radical series. I would definitely love to include it in here, or even the 360mm version seeing how I have a 360m Nemesis GTS and GTX which can act as a comparison control.

I believe Extremerigs will have the 360 radical tested soon also.


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Hey C_C,
> 
> Thanks for the comments. Only @Shoggy can say for sure about the Radical series. I would definitely love to include it in here, or even the 360mm version seeing how I have a 360m Nemesis GTS and GTX which can act as a comparison control.
> 
> I believe Extremerigs will have the 360 radical tested soon also.


Yup alongside nearly 20 others including the AMS


----------



## Chunky_Chimp

The AMS isn't that great of a performer, I think, so it's a safe skip IMO unless you want to do it just for the sake of doing it.


----------



## derickwm

C_C do u even lift


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chunky_Chimp*
> 
> The AMS isn't that great of a performer, I think, so it's a safe skip IMO unless you want to do it just for the sake of doing it.


Thanks for the permission







I like to think it's good to measure the old version before the new version so you can show the improvement (or lack of sometimes). It can also act as a sanity check that you're testing makes sense. Plus it gives more comparison points for future and past roundups







A test in a vacuum means nothing.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stren*
> 
> Yup alongside nearly 20 others including the AMS


Show off








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chunky_Chimp*
> 
> The AMS isn't that great of a performer, I think, so it's a safe skip IMO unless you want to do it just for the sake of doing it.


I think the latter part is pretty obvious here









But that ~20 rad roundup will be excellent for people who have older rads and also for those looking at newer ones.


----------



## fast_fate

This could get interesting


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Show off


I always say go big or go home









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I think the latter part is pretty obvious here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that ~20 rad roundup will be excellent for people who have older rads and also for those looking at newer ones.


Yeah I always like the idea of having a huge reference that goes back and forth over a wide period of time. I would often struggle when trying to find a radiator review and see one with 5 rads, and then another with 5 rads, and you could never cross compare. Martin's later reviews like the huge fan and radiator roundups were so useful precisely because he covered so many products. The downside is the work and burnout that can come witht that. Many readers don't understand how much work these reviews can be. The same thing happened with the cpu block review, which was why the big 2012 one went so out of control and ended up with 20 or so blocks







I'd rather have a few bigger roundups than lots of little tests that a user has to try and compare (but never really can). Luckily I'm not doing the crazy amount of work that this rad roundup is










Now enough about ER and more about Geggeg's testing


----------



## VSG

The jigsaw puzzle is now complete









F_F: I keep telling people your test results would be one to check out as well, so better get a nice write up to go along with it. Not having everything plastered on a single page will definitely help lol.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stren*
> 
> Yeah I always like the idea of having a huge reference that goes back and forth over a wide period of time. I would often struggle when trying to find a radiator review and see one with 5 rads, and then another with 5 rads, and you could never cross compare. Martin's later reviews like the huge fan and radiator roundups were so useful precisely because he covered so many products. The downside is the work and burnout that can come witht that. The same thing was how things wen with the cpu block review, which was why the big 2012 one went so out of control and ended up with 20 or so blocks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd rather have a few bigger roundups than lots of little tests that a user has to try and compare (but never really can). Luckily I'm not doing the crazy amount of work that this rad roundup is


Thing is, unless everyone has the absolute same everything else it makes no sense to compare across reviews. Heck, even the trends may not match up as evident by some reviews out there (Bundy, Martin and a few others). So having a ton of rads in the same testing conditions is the only thing to compare with in my opinion. I wish I knew before hand about you and F_F doing these many though- would definitely have been something to consider before starting this.


----------



## fast_fate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> The jigsaw puzzle is now complete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F_F: I keep telling people your test results would be one to check out as well, so better get a nice write up to go along with it. Not having everything plastered on a single page will definitely help lol.


write-ups








JK


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> The jigsaw puzzle is now complete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thing is, unless everyone has the absolute same everything else it makes no sense to compare across reviews. Heck, even the trends may not match up as evident by some reviews out there (Bundy, Martin and a few others). So having a ton of rads in the same testing conditions is the only thing to compare with in my opinion.


Agreed, comparisons often don't work well at all, hence max coverage is best if you can afford the time to do it


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fast_fate*
> 
> write-ups
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JK


I was going to embed a Black Eyed Peas video in here now but then I realized that down under, the sense of humor is also upside down


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I was going to embed a Black Eyed Peas video in here now but then I realized that down under, the sense of humor is also upside down


I was going to embed this: http://i.imgur.com/Y4wUlXd.gifv

but I don't know if gifv's work on huddler








-edit they do not.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stren*
> 
> I was going to embed this: http://i.imgur.com/Y4wUlXd.gifv
> 
> but I don't know if gifv's work on huddler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -edit they do not.


I'll have you know I fist bumped TWICE with Neil deGrasse Tyson last spring. So take that!


----------



## fast_fate

Never got around to loading up the 480 and the 300W heater.
Not forgotten about, just not on the high priority list.
The only 480 I have which is not in use is an XT45 - above average 360mm performer so should be a good check.
I'll get back to you when I get the chance to run it and perhaps post results here also for interested parties - even though you won't be able to add my data to your plots because of the differing test conditions.


----------



## VSG

Yeah definitely would be interesting to have just a single 480 with a 300w load- if only to see if that makes this easier to test without it being a bottleneck.









I owe you some pump numbers also, will have them in the test thread tomorrow.


----------



## stren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> The jigsaw puzzle is now complete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F_F: I keep telling people your test results would be one to check out as well, so better get a nice write up to go along with it. Not having everything plastered on a single page will definitely help lol.
> Thing is, unless everyone has the absolute same everything else it makes no sense to compare across reviews. Heck, even the trends may not match up as evident by some reviews out there (Bundy, Martin and a few others). So having a ton of rads in the same testing conditions is the only thing to compare with in my opinion. I wish I knew before hand about you and F_F doing these many though- would definitely have been something to consider before starting this.


There's no bad thing about having multiple reviews on products, if anything it helps to solidify things and helps to find setup errors, if I'd have known your testing was going to be as big and as detailed as it turned out, I might have done things differently too. There's so many products that need good reviews right now that it's easy for the work to feel wasted when it could have been spent on something else instead, and it certainly can be hard on sponsors who have to send more samples out at the same time of year for essentially the same amount of market exposure. However it certainly isn't a waste of time. Also bear in mind your testing has been with one set of fans only, while FF has been running with P&P which will favor rads that are more "restrictive" to airflow. So it still adds value. Like in academia - having two papers saying the same thing helps, but it doesn't always feel like that


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I'll have you know I fist bumped TWICE with Neil deGrasse Tyson last spring. So take that!


Pics or it didn't happen!


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stren*
> 
> There's no bad thing about having multiple reviews on products, if anything it helps to solidify things and helps to find setup errors, if I'd have known your testing was going to be as big and as detailed as it turned out, I might have done things differently too. There's so many products that need good reviews right now that it's easy for the work to feel wasted when it could have been spent on something else instead, and it certainly can be hard on sponsors who have to send more samples out at the same time of year for essentially the same amount of market exposure. However it certainly isn't a waste of time. Also bear in mind your testing has been with one set of fans only, while FF has been running with P&P which will favor rads that are more "restrictive" to airflow. So it still adds value. Like in academia - having two papers saying the same thing helps, but it doesn't always feel like that


That academia analogy was a bad one knowing how bad it gets in reality









But yeah, coordinating in the future would be great. Having F_F do push-pull changes everything of course, and again is a within itself comparison only.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> Pics or it didn't happen!


Heavily cropped, potato pic one:










That's all you get


----------



## fast_fate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Yeah definitely would be interesting to have just a single 480 with a 300w load- if only to see if that makes this easier to test without it being a bottleneck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I owe you *The OCN Community is waiting for* some pump numbers also, will have them in the test thread tomorrow.


fixed that


----------



## WhiteWulfe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> The jigsaw puzzle is now complete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F_F: I keep telling people your test results would be one to check out as well, so better get a nice write up to go along with it. Not having everything plastered on a single page will definitely help lol.


I agree. I'd love to see a 20 radiator roundup including some of the newest ones ^_^


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> That academia analogy was a bad one knowing how bad it gets in reality
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But yeah, coordinating in the future would be great. Having F_F do push-pull changes everything of course, and again is a within itself comparison only.
> Heavily cropped, potato pic one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's all you get


I wanted the fist bump incident.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> I wanted the fist bump incident.


Unless Doctor Who gets here and takes me with a camera back to that time, it ain't happening


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Unless Doctor Who gets here and takes me with a camera back to that time, it ain't happening


lol For all we know that's big foot in a toga.


----------



## The EX1

Nice to see a round up of larger size radiators. Thanks for the hard work.... +rep


----------



## rexr0d

@geggeg, vsg, will there be a round of single/dual/triple rads by any chance?


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> @geggeg, vsg, will there be a round of single/dual/triple rads by any chance?


I do have 3 360mm rads as well so that rads that don't come in quad size can get included in there, but I am not going to go out of my way to buy them


----------



## VSG

The Mayhems Havoc has arrived and is being tested as we speak. I will hopefully have enough time to add it in over the weekend.


----------



## DemiseGR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> The Mayhems Havoc has arrived and is being tested as we speak. I will hopefully have enough time to add it in over the weekend.


looks like an XPSC radiator ?


----------



## Jakusonfire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DemiseGR*
> 
> looks like an XPSC radiator ?


Unghhhh .... Hush, don't say that !!

If you aren't careful you will be accused of downing servers soon.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DemiseGR*
> 
> looks like an XPSC radiator ?


Well that didn't take long!

There has been plenty of discussion on this in another thread so best to let that settle down in private. On my end, I will give it the same treatment as the other 480mm rads in here.


----------



## Mayhem

lol Looking forwards to the results








.


----------



## DemiseGR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Well that didn't take long!
> 
> There has been plenty of discussion on this in another thread so best to let that settle down in private. On my end, I will give it the same treatment as the other 480mm rads in here.


apologies i didnt know. looking forward to your results


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DemiseGR*
> 
> apologies i didnt know. looking forward to your results


No need to apologize, things like that happen and no one can expect people to have looked up this elsewhere









Blitz Pro treatment done, and not surprising that this was one of the cleanest rads out there given they made the cleaning solution as well. Liquid restriction test ongoing now, and I should have everything up by Sunday.


----------



## Faster_is_better

Your reviews are excellent. You might want to add radiator dimensions to the cheat sheet or into another cheat sheet below the current one. They can be very useful to know off hand.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Faster_is_better*
> 
> Your reviews are excellent. You might want to add radiator dimensions to the cheat sheet or into another cheat sheet below the current one. They can be very useful to know off hand.


Thank you so much for the kind words, and yes- it's a good thing to add in along with the number of ports for when I edit in the Mayhems Havoc in here. I might not be able to fit everything in on a single page width but will see what I can do about it.

As far as the Havoc goes, the thermal tests are completed but they didn't finish in enough time for me to finish the write up before I leave for a 3.5 day work trip. So it will have to be Friday at the earliest but likely this coming weekend instead









Spoiler- it's not all that different from XSPC RX V3 in the thermal tests!


----------



## Jakusonfire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Thank you so much for the kind words, and yes- it's a good thing to add in along with the number of ports for when I edit in the Mayhems Havoc in here. I might not be able to fit everything in on a single page width but will see what I can do about it.
> 
> As far as the Havoc goes, the thermal tests are completed but they didn't finish in enough time for me to finish the write up before I leave for a 3.5 day work trip. So it will have to be Friday at the earliest but likely this coming weekend instead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler- it's not all that different from XSPC RX V3 in the thermal tests!


Thats a very good sign (for the testing), FF seemed to see the same thing.


----------



## VSG

I saw his Havoc results, but not the RX V3 ones. It makes sense that the trend follows in push or push-pull though as both these rads are not at the extreme ends where push-pull does more/less than the 20-30% that it is usually associated with.

One thing I was surprised with (till I saw the actual tube orientation and the 1+2 row design) was the liquid flow restriction- it wasn't anywhere as high as I expected if this was a true quad pass, triple tube rad. But that explanation from Mick explains it.


----------



## Jakusonfire

Oh really? I was assuming it would be relatively high seeing as it goes single row for some sections.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jakusonfire*
> 
> Oh really? I was assuming it would be relatively high seeing as it goes single row for some sections.


I suppose my "relative" scale is based on the Nemesis GTS


----------



## Jakusonfire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I suppose my "relative" scale is based on the Nemesis GTS


Yeah I guess its really just the equivalent of a thin, normal tube width rad like the ST30 or EK PE and they aren't high. Nothing compares to those itty bitty, teeny weeny tubes on the Hardware labs rads. I had totally assumed they would open them up with this new generation but it didn't happen. I had Koolance rads that were just as restrictive because of the narrow tubes and hated them. It just feels wrong to lose so much flow to a rad.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jakusonfire*
> 
> Yeah I guess its really just the equivalent of a thin, normal tube width rad like the ST30 or EK PE and they aren't high. Nothing compares to those itty bitty, teeny weeny tubes on the Hardware labs rads. I had totally assumed they would open them up with this new generation but it didn't happen. I had Koolance rads that were just as restrictive because of the narrow tubes and hated them. It just feels wrong to lose so much flow to a rad.


The Nemesis GTX isn't that bad though- even with the thinner tubes. For all the marketing terminology and trademarks employed, they all seem to be doing the right things.


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jakusonfire*
> 
> Yeah I guess its really just the equivalent of a thin, normal tube width rad like the ST30 or EK PE and they aren't high. Nothing compares to those itty bitty, teeny weeny tubes on the Hardware labs rads. I had totally assumed they would open them up with this new generation but it didn't happen. I had Koolance rads that were just as restrictive because of the narrow tubes and hated them. It just feels wrong to lose so much flow to a rad.


The thin tubes actually help with the lower airflow. There are also more tubes now, and t shows that the flow rate has also improved.


----------



## VSG

Mayhems Havoc 480 now included.


----------



## Mayhem

Thank you for you synopsis and review of the rad. Im glad to see the rad is with in the range we predicted and were happy to see we've done well for our first "real" retail rad.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mayhem*
> 
> Thank you for you synopsis and review of the rad. Im glad to see the rad is with in the range we predicted and were happy to see we've done well for our first "real" retail rad.


I haven't been in the PC enthusiast hobby for longer than an year, but I bet most first retail rads did worse. Hopefully the IP issues get settled quickly in private also so people can decide with their wallet what to go with


----------



## ZytheEKS

I'm surprised the Havoc pressure drop is that low, it seems to be right on par with the GTX Nemesis. Seems like the Havoc bottoms the charts up until high fan speeds, then the higher fin density rads push their way after the 2k RPM range.

Great tests geggeg,









-Z


----------



## Mayhem

TBH there is no IP infringement and no issues with us







. As for the pressure drop we've spent a lot of time getting this to work with a few changes internally. Our tests show a little difference in readings and tests how ever we don't have a GTX or a RX3 so we could never compare them against ours so ill heave to get some to compare.

Tis all good though and im very happy


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZytheEKS*
> 
> I'm surprised the Havoc pressure drop is that low, it seems to be right on par with the GTX Nemesis. Seems like the Havoc bottoms the charts up until high fan speeds, then the higher fin density rads push their way after the 2k RPM range.
> 
> Great tests geggeg,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Z


Low is relative. If you take out the Nemesis GTS (which really is in a class of its own restriction wise), then the Havoc is the most restrictive rad relative to the others in there. But then again this isn't really something to worry about too much for most people.


----------



## rexr0d

The Nemesis GTS though raises a serious bang for the buck question.

Not to mention easily justifying its place in a tight case.


----------



## rexr0d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mayhem*
> 
> Thank you for you synopsis and review of the rad. Im glad to see the rad is with in the range we predicted and were happy to see we've done well for our first "real" retail rad.


First real rad with "real split fins"?


----------



## ALT F4

I'm thinking about ordering a few of these mayhem radiators. Does anyone know which ups method they use to ship? The website shows *UPS (N/A)*.


----------



## Unicr0nhunter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ALT F4*
> 
> I'm thinking about ordering a few of these mayhem radiators. Does anyone know which ups method they use to ship? The website shows *UPS (N/A)*.


I suspect that depends on where you live. I'm in the US and there was only a UPS (N/A) shipping option (it was pretty expensive £38.00 = $60 USD) that I chose and not long after I got a "_Your Order has been shipped_" email saying "_Shipping method: UPS_" but it included no tracking number, however a ~ week or so later when it did arrive it had been shipped FedEx. lol



Also worth noting, I had to be here to sign for the delivery. FedEx called the day before to let me know.


----------



## Mayhem

What happens is it actually costs more for us to ship the rads but we chose the best option on that day. Normally Fed ex are cheaper and then sometimes UPS are cheaper but its always more than the stated price. We just pay the difference.


----------



## Unicr0nhunter

Thanks for the explanation Mick. I didn't realize you all were eating any of the shipping costs. That sucks. Shipping shouldn't have to cost that much. No biggie though. I was willing to pay it and it arrived before long in good shape was all that really mattered to me.

Maybe check out DHL? That's who Aquatuning uses and their shipping is super cheap. IIRC they do add some sort of customs fee on top of that, but even then it was no more than I normally pay for domestic shipping options and DHL is amazing in how fast they are. I don't know how they manage it. 2-3 days from the time I order shipped to my door in the middle of the US from Germany blows my mind every time.

Anywho, hopefully it won't be too long before you have your rads being stocked by US retailers.


----------



## Mayhem

DHL will not ship liquids (or refuse to) and this is our big concern. We have to cover every legal aspect of what we do and say for any reason a liquid is spilled then this could ruin other products or parcels and then insurance would be called upon. Now because DHL do not cover liquids who would foot the bill :/. We have to go with the more expensive shippers for this reason because we are covered for sending liquids out this way also to top that off we have linked accounts now to these shippers and we have done all the hoop jumping already so customs documentation is done and ready







.

We would rather foot any access bills and keep good customer relations than save a few quid.







Mayhems makes money through sheer volumes of stock we move not individual items that net us next to nothing.

Some USA and UK retailers has been told by XSPC if they stock our Havoc rads, XSPC will no longer let them sell their products basically blackmailing resellers worldwide. Some big names in the UK and USA have basically got no balls and care more about money than fair competition and this will be evident when the rads are shipped to "other" resellers who won't be blackmailed by such companies.


----------



## WhiteWulfe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mayhem*
> 
> What happens is it actually costs more for us to ship the rads but we chose the best option on that day. Normally Fed ex are cheaper and then sometimes UPS are cheaper but its always more than the stated price. We just pay the difference.


Out of curiosity, is one able to make requests for a carrier when one orders? Asking out of curiosity because FedEx has a fairly low brokerage fee whereas UPS is known for charging insane service fees for bringing a package across the border.


----------



## Mayhem

Ive spoken to steve he said we will only be using fed ex for the foreseeable future. So ive changed the shipping.


----------



## WhiteWulfe

Good to know!


----------



## ALT F4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mayhem*
> 
> Ive spoken to steve he said we will only be using fed ex for the foreseeable future. So ive changed the shipping.


The old one seems better








Fed-Ex (upto 14 working days but should be quicker.) - £38.00


----------



## TheCautiousOne

@geggeg Here to ask your honest opinion. Originally was going to buy 2 x 480 Darkside rads without question. When I priced them (from canada, unbeknownst to me) I realized they were A LOT to ship to the US. Now the retailers in US offer better options, cheaper shipping and so on and so forth. My Question...

If you were to chose a great rad to run at a decent speed (I plan on Using Bitfenix Spectre Pro) Which Run at 1200Rpm (For asthetic Reasons and I am sure they aren't bad performance wise, What rad would you go with if you were to choose from my mind

1. EK 480
2. Hardware Labs SR2 Black ice
3. XSPC 480 V3

Just at a loss really where my money would be better spent! I read your whole review and still can't make a decision? Or would you have a better recommendation?

The Cautious One.

Thank you for Reading.


----------



## Unicr0nhunter

Might want to keep in mind the prices at Dazmode are in Canadian dollars which are currently equal to 0.87 US Dollar, so you'll save more than 10% in the sales price and shipping when converted to USD.


----------



## IT Diva

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheCautiousOne*
> 
> @geggeg Here to ask your honest opinion. Originally was going to buy 2 x 480 Darkside rads without question. When I priced them (from canada, unbeknownst to me) I realized they were A LOT to ship to the US. Now the retailers in US offer better options, cheaper shipping and so on and so forth. My Question...
> 
> If you were to chose a great rad to run at a decent speed (I plan on Using Bitfenix Spectre Pro) Which Run at 1200Rpm (For asthetic Reasons and I am sure they aren't bad performance wise, What rad would you go with if you were to choose from my mind
> 
> 1. EK 480
> 2. Hardware Labs SR2 Black ice
> 3. XSPC 480 V3
> 
> Just at a loss really where my money would be better spent! I read your whole review and still can't make a decision? Or would you have a better recommendation?
> 
> The Cautious One.
> 
> Thank you for Reading.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Unicr0nhunter*
> 
> Might want to keep in mind the prices at Dazmode are in Canadian dollars which are currently equal to 0.87 US Dollar, so you'll save more than 10% in the sales price and shipping when converted to USD.


Might also look at features that could be a big advantage in your setup . . . The EK 480 has ports on both sides and a single (drain) port in the opposite end tank.

I just got some to take advantage of the top side set of ports, since they will make filling a bleeding a comparative breeze in a top rad setup, and another one for the end port to have a good drain location for a bottom rad setup.

Darlene


----------



## VSG

Yeah, check and make sure what the actual price in USD you would have to pay if purchased from Daz.

As far as the query goes, I don't have any personal experience with the EK XTX rads so all I know is the same as what you or others reading other reviews know about. As far as the SR-2 vs RX V3 goes, SR-2 and Nemesis GTS trade thermal performance all the time with fan speed, Nemesis GTS has an edge in air flow through it while the SR-2 has a big edge in liquid flow. So compare the RX V3 with the Nemesis GTS knowing what I said (SR-2 review almost done) and see what you want to go with in terms of performance, dimensions/ports/accessories and price.


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Belay my mistake of the price point. I am thinking that when I went to ship the rads the price was over 50$
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IT Diva*
> 
> Might also look at features that could be a big advantage in your setup . . . The EK 480 has ports on both sides and a single (drain) port in the opposite end tank.
> 
> I just got some to take advantage of the top side set of ports, since they will make filling a bleeding a comparative breeze in a top rad setup, and another one for the end port to have a good drain location for a bottom rad setup.
> 
> Darlene


Thanks Darlene! (Btw is that A real picture of you, I've always wanted to ask that) Each 480 rad would be in its own loop, IE: A rad up on the top rack of the SMA8 and the other in the lower chamber for the GPU'S. So that is an excellent point for drain and refill.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Yeah, check and make sure what the actual price in USD you would have to pay if purchased from Daz.
> 
> As far as the query goes, I don't have any personal experience with the EK XTX rads so all I know is the same as what you or others reading other reviews know about. As far as the SR-2 vs RX V3 goes, SR-2 and Nemesis GTS trade thermal performance all the time with fan speed, Nemesis GTS has an edge in air flow through it while the SR-2 has a big edge in liquid flow. So compare the RX V3 with the Nemesis GTS knowing what I said (SR-2 review almost done) and see what you want to go with in terms of performance, dimensions/ports/accessories and price.


Quota on the Sr-2 Review? I think I would go Sr-2 Or Ek 480 honestly.


----------



## wermad

Makes feel good on my monsta and sp120 hp's purchase







.

Nice review sir


----------



## rexr0d

If space is a premium in your case, I would go for the Nemesis GTS. At 1200 RPM if you have the room, the Black Ice Nemesis GTX. I think geggeg's review says it all.

Great rad for low airflow, and scales up in case you need more oomph.


----------



## ZytheEKS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rexr0d*
> 
> If space is a premium in your case, I would go for the Nemesis GTS. At 1200 RPM if you have the room, the Black Ice Nemesis GTX. I think geggeg's review says it all.
> 
> Great rad for low airflow, and scales up in case you need more oomph.


Yeah, hardware labs really outdid themselves with this Nemesis line.


----------



## morencyam

The results of the HWL rads is really surprising to me, especially the Nemesis GTX. Looks to be a good performer at all fan speeds, as opposed to the original line of GTX rads which were better at higher fan speeds. Almost makes me want to swap out my original GTX for a Nemesis GTX. Great work on the comparison VSG!


----------



## VSG

Yeah instead of going high airflow and low airflow as with the GTX Extreme and SR-1, they are doing it differently this time around with the Nemesis GTX/GTS and SR-2.


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Purchased 2 x 240mm V3 Rx 360 XSPC Rad's so far. I need two 480mm Rads around 60mm in thickness. Each will be in push


----------



## VSG

Nice, they will serve you well hopefully


----------



## ALT F4

Do any of you use any inline filters within your loop?


----------



## VSG

Who me? No, I clean everything before hand itself.


----------



## ALT F4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Who me? No, I clean everything before hand itself.


I asked in the mayhems thread, just trying to get some more feedback. Going to be flushing a few radiators this weekend if I have time and was curious for first hand experiences from people with filters. What I'm getting is that the restriction they cause is far too much compared to the amount of debris that later might be caught by the filter.

Trying to dig out information from people who use and those who don't, of course instead of me buying first hand and trying


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Nice, they will serve you well hopefully


Hopefully?? Oh NO! VSG did I make a mistake? I have an RX 360 V3 in my current Rig with corsair sp 120mm and Work like a dream. Now I know this is a 240mm but I Have faith in XSPC. For a 480mm Rad though.. I could still go XSPC but would like a variation of a company I've never used (Have used XSPC and Alphacool)

THe Cautious One


----------



## VSG

Man you are certainly living up to your username! It will be great- that better?


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Man you are certainly living up to your username! It will be great- that better?


"Wipes sweat off of forehead" Yes. Yes. VSG That is much better. Lmao. I've done this trial and error thing already and really dont like buying something more than one out of ignorance or mis-information if you know what I mean. I appreciate all the hard data and try to make as much of an educated decision that someone from Louisiana could make righteously. Phew.

I'm done with coffee already. Moving on to Mountain Dew now.

The Cautious One.

PS: Got my package in the mail for my current build: Contains: 2 x 250mm Bitspower Z tank (Clear) 2 x Ek DDC Heatsinks (Nickle) 2 x DDC Orginial CQC Pump Tops










EDIT: Should Have 2x 3.2v DDC pumps from swiftech (ordered from Sidewinder computers for 160 USD) by Friday or saturday


----------



## VSG

Nice, make a build log for sure


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Nice, make a build log for sure


Oh For Sure its a deal. Waiting on this elusive Caselabs SMA8. I agree to Caselabs to reset my order time to get the XMAS discount for 50$

When It gets here though I will take tons of photos and start the log.


----------



## stangman86gt

I was all set on getting an alphacool 480 monsta when tax time comes around, but then i saw this damn thread(damn research before buying....BAH). Then i saw the black ice nemesis 480 gtx in your testing(impressed).

However, I plan on doing push-pull SOOO now I'm going to have to wait till this thread gets updated with push pull results(any time frame?).

thanks for this thread geggeg


----------



## VSG

Probably around Christmas time depending on how things go. I don't know if ExtremeRigs or @JackNaylorPE might get around to it sooner though!


----------



## fast_fate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stangman86gt*
> 
> I was all set on getting an alphacool 480 monsta when tax time comes around, but then i saw this damn thread(damn research before buying....BAH). Then i saw the black ice nemesis 480 gtx in your testing(impressed).
> 
> However, I plan on doing push-pull SOOO now I'm going to have to wait till this thread gets updated with push pull results(any time frame?).
> 
> thanks for this thread geggeg


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Probably around Christmas time depending on how things go. I don't know if ExtremeRigs or @JackNaylorPE might get around to it sooner though!


ER testing is recommencing - with aim to get repeatability below 2% (hopefuyly down below 1%) so won't have results up in the near future.
However of the rads tested previously for performance (+-5%) the Nemesis 360GTX was the best all round performer in push/pull (only beaten at high rpm by another HWLabs model)


----------



## VSG

GTX Extreme Gen 2 I suppose


----------



## fast_fate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> GTX Extreme Gen 2 I suppose


Didn't get the GTX loaded - yet.
Alpha Xtreme III, which I think was prior to the GTX ??
This a champion


----------



## rexr0d

I still have my old Black Ice Xtreme II somewhere. Those things were built like tanks.


----------



## bond32

This thread... Just gets me all excited in the pants.

What's the word on testing the new HW SR2 series? Their site claims the 480 can dump 2 kW of heat. Bananas.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> This thread... Just gets me all excited in the pants.
> 
> What's the word on testing the new HW SR2 series? Their site claims the 480 can dump 2 kW of heat. Bananas.


Hopefully by tomorrow, I am done with the testing (I got a 360mm version for a test bench that should make things easier than having to re-use actual build components) and comparison with a few other 360mm rads. Writing and plotting takes hours though!

That number is based on a 25 C delta T (loop - ambient) value with decent fans on, one that industry seems to adopt- like Intel themselves.


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Hopefully by tomorrow, I am done with the testing (I got a 360mm version for a test bench that should make things easier than having to re-use actual build components) and comparison with a few other 360mm rads. Writing and plotting takes hours though!
> 
> That number is based on a 25 C delta T (loop - ambient) value with decent fans on, one that industry seems to adopt- like Intel themselves.


I see the value of the delta between the loop and ambient, but one additional number that would be helpful in determining the efficiency of the exchanger is the delta of the cold fluid - air in this case....

Have you considered measuring that? I suppose you would have to either locate a common point say a few inches away from the rad to put a thermocouple, or measure it at a few places... That would give a number in kW of heat dissipated which is a pretty useful number imo... Assuming you hold other variables constant which you obviously are.


----------



## VSG

That doesn't take into consideration the heat transfer from the blocks to the loop though.


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> That doesn't take into consideration the heat transfer from the blocks to the loop though.


Yeah it does, well that's an assumption that any heat that is gained by the water (warm fluid) is transferred to the cold fluid (air). There are a few assumptions that can be made, but maybe along with that is that you can assume any heat that is transferred to the blocks is gained by the water.

I'll dig up an equation that will help make sense if I have time.

Edit: Since I love this stuff, just grabbed a bit from one of my textbooks.



Without getting too complicated (yet), if you know the flow rate, and the air temperature on each side of the radiator of air, you can determine how much heat that radiator is dumping in kW. Just come conversions here and there, and the Cp of air will be from a table, usually its given at a bunch of temperatures so just average the outlet and inlet and use that (the variation is small).


----------



## bond32

No response?

Point is, it would be cool since you're doing all the leg work, to be able to have a useful value for:

1. Heat Exchanger "Effectiveness" - number between 0-1 - this is a value that is determined by comparing the situation to the ideal case, one where the exchanger can dissipate 100% of the heat.

Effectiveness = q/q(max) = [(Cc(Tc,outlet - Tc,inlet))/(Cmin(Th,inlet - Tc,inlet))]

Therefore: q = [effectiveness] * [Cmin] * [Th, inlet - Tc, inlet]

That q would tell us the actual heat transfer rate. Heat capacity rate: "Cmin" = [mass flow rate] * [cp of the fluid]

So essentially, knowing:
-flow rate
-what the fluid is
-inlet and outlet temperatures

we can determine:
-heat transfer rate
-value for heat exchanger effectiveness

Those two values take into account the variation in ambient temperatures. To keep it constant the flow rate would need to be maintained to a set value, say around 1-1.5 gpm.

Probably more information than you need, just a thought though that would provide a more accurate number to compare these.


----------



## VSG

Hang on, where did that previous post come from? I could swear I saw the whole thread just an hour ago. I must have missed it, let me take a look now.

Edit: Ok I know what you are talking about, flashes of undergrad thermodynamics coming in now









I think Aquacomputer uses the same theory to give an estimate of the power dissipated through a rad by having temp sensors on the inlet and outlet. Fast_fate checked it out against his fixed 300w heater and it was pretty off. Now if you go about it using the air temps as you suggested, then it's definitely worth a try. I am just not sure if the temperature sensors are that accurate/precise especially inside a hotbox that is supposed to maintain uniform temps inside.


----------



## fast_fate

I'm using a different method of calculating power dissipation from the rad - as I have a fixed value heating the coolant (variable with the Variac).
Using Coolant temps in and out of the rad, flow rate and one other value to determine Power Dissipation values for each data set tested at.
However, because deltas are so small, I really am not taking too much notice if they are not exact.
I look there for a trend as confirmation of reliable data, but not for exact matching power input values.
Sensors with much higher accuracy levels would be required if I was to aim for exact values.
The sensors available to us at an enthusiast hobby level are just accurate enough I think to get really good data.
I'm now using Dallas DS18B20 sensors throughout the rig.

The main problem with aiming for perfect data sets with matching trends over different flow rates and rpm sets is the variables out of the tester's control.
Power Fluctuation, heat from pump, heat loss for the loop ect ect.
What we're doing is gathering really good data......
but I have come to accept that getting perfect sets of data are unobtainable, and now trust that the rig is putting out accurate data, so what the end results are, is as good as can be


----------



## bond32

The hope would have been to put a thermocouple on each side of one of the fans - so you could measure basically the heat dumped for a single 120mm portion at the given flow rate. I realize that is somewhat difficult to do though given like Fast Fate said, that the deltas are so small (especially on the air side)...


----------



## Jakusonfire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> The hope would have been to put a thermocouple on each side of one of the fans - so you could measure basically the heat dumped for a single 120mm portion at the given flow rate. I realize that is somewhat difficult to do though given like Fast Fate said, that the deltas are so small (especially on the air side)...


As the guys have said the precision required for that just isn't really available to us. The very small delta would require double or preferably tripple decimal accuracy. By instead measuring the water to air delta the range is increased so inaccuracy is limited.

Measuring the air delta across a rad won't give you a 120mm unit of cooling, only the full cooling of the entire rad.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> The hope would have been to put a thermocouple on each side of one of the fans - so you could measure basically the heat dumped for a single 120mm portion at the given flow rate. I realize that is somewhat difficult to do though given like Fast Fate said, that the deltas are so small (especially on the air side)...


The theory is absolutely sound, and I will go ahead and give it a whirl just to see. But I am not optimistic here as you surely understand why.


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jakusonfire*
> 
> As the guys have said the precision required for that just isn't really available to us. The very small delta would require double or preferably tripple decimal accuracy. By instead measuring the water to air delta the range is increased so inaccuracy is limited.
> 
> Measuring the air delta across a rad won't give you a 120mm unit of cooling, only the full cooling of the entire rad.


Measuring the delta if the thermocouples are in the exact same locations in the same plane will.

Also a delta between two working fluids is weird. I can see why, and I understand it gives comparative results, but the discussion here deals with that a temp difference involving 2 fluids is just plain wrong.

Knowing the water temperature reaching equilibrium, is there any noticeable delta across the inlet and outlet of radiators on the water side?


----------



## fast_fate

I like this kind of discussion








The sensors are in fact really sensitive and I get 4 decimal place readings on each sensor every second, with 16 sensors in total.
BUT it's the accuracy level of each sensor that would need to be much greater for perfectly matching data set.
I use the coolant delta to produce my power dissipation figure - so it is really sensitive to error in the coolant delta which is a very lower number.
Kind of a sanity check - If I get over 275 watts PD I call it a good data set, many are in the 290's, so the rig is pretty well tuned right now.

For the radiator performance, I use the commonly accepted W/10ΔT formula, as it uses water/air delta so is far less sensitive to fluctuation of sensor values.
Maximum of 0.2 degrees over period of the test, often less than 0.1










VSG - It would be a interesting exercise if you run the calculations from bond32, but I don't know if you'll be able to verify the calculated value will you ?
As far as I remember you're rig has an unknown variable for power ??? kill-a-watt reading,
but what is actually getting to the rad is unknow - maybe the bond calculations get around that, I haven't looked at it to hard.

*EDIT*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Measuring the delta if the thermocouples are in the exact same locations in the same plane will.
> 
> Also a delta between two working fluids is weird. I can see why, and I understand it gives comparative results, but the discussion here deals with that a temp difference involving 2 fluids is just plain wrong.
> 
> Knowing the water temperature reaching equilibrium, is there any noticeable delta across the inlet and outlet of radiators on the water side?


That's what I'm talking about - noticable yes, and varies depending on fan rpm.
last test set had coolant delta of 0.75 degrees


----------



## VSG

Aye, actual wattage dumped into the load is an unknown at this point. That's what this exercise would have helped determine in a way. Definitely love this discussion myself, I only get a chance to do things like this via PM with @IT Diva


----------



## bond32

If you guys were to record data in a spreadsheet, I could chalk up some equations for it... Would be later on though, doing the family thing this week









Edit: Any of you know C+? Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DataTaker-DT605-Series-3-Intelligent-Universal-Input-Industrial-data-logger-/121076532692?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item1c30b945d4 plus a real flow meter (wheel type) would be awesome... Could record thermocouples and has a pulse counter function. That's probably the most accurate anyone can get.


----------



## ZytheEKS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Yeah it does, well that's an assumption that any heat that is gained by the water (warm fluid) is transferred to the cold fluid (air). There are a few assumptions that can be made, but maybe along with that is that you can assume any heat that is transferred to the blocks is gained by the water.
> 
> I'll dig up an equation that will help make sense if I have time.
> 
> Edit: Since I love this stuff, just grabbed a bit from one of my textbooks.
> 
> 
> 
> Without getting too complicated (yet), if you know the flow rate, and the air temperature on each side of the radiator of air, you can determine how much heat that radiator is dumping in kW. Just come conversions here and there, and the Cp of air will be from a table, usually its given at a bunch of temperatures so just average the outlet and inlet and use that (the variation is small).


Wouldn't it be easier to take the coolant temp on the inlet, the coolant temp on the outlet, the heat capacity on the water, and the flowrate and figure out the heat removed that way? That way you don't have to worry about precision on the air probes, and possible heat gradient on the radiator due to deadzones from fans.

-Z


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> If you guys were to record data in a spreadsheet, I could chalk up some equations for it... Would be later on though, doing the family thing this week
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Any of you know C+? Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DataTaker-DT605-Series-3-Intelligent-Universal-Input-Industrial-data-logger-/121076532692?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item1c30b945d4 plus a real flow meter (wheel type) would be awesome... Could record thermocouples and has a pulse counter function. That's probably the most accurate anyone can get.


So thanks to the tremendous (as in, next to none) dexterity in the hot box, I go back to the stone age and manually jot down numbers in a book. Luckily it is just once every 30 minutes or so for 2-3 minutes so it is not bad at all.


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZytheEKS*
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier to take the coolant temp on the inlet, the coolant temp on the outlet, the heat capacity on the water, and the flowrate and figure out the heat removed that way? That way you don't have to worry about precision on the air probes, and possible heat gradient on the radiator due to deadzones from fans.
> 
> -Z


Yes! You are correct... However, like we are discussing, the accuracy needed to get that delta between the inlet and outlet of the hot fluid (water) is so small, we actually don't have much instrumentation to be able to get any usable data.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> So thanks to the tremendous (as in, next to none) dexterity in the hot box, I go back to the stone age and manually jot down numbers in a book. Luckily it is just once every 30 minutes or so for 2-3 minutes so it is not bad at all.


No, your hot box was spot on. Really, it's totally fine. I was just suggesting all of this as a way to get some more accurate, usable numbers in the future since you're already going to the trouble to produce all this amazing data.

If it helps, I can spend some time later to make a spreadsheet that outlines in each column what to input and it calculates everything for you.


----------



## fast_fate

Oh VSG - you make me laugh








I got it easy now - import the data from the logger into spreadsheet and voila - magic happens and numbers are spat out with different plots on different worksheets of the workbook.
Depending on what else I'm doing the logs usually have 10,000 ish data points for each sensor (as little as 3000 and I've had up to 18,000)
Of that I choose the the most flat-line 900 second section from the air/water delta plot and copy that into another page which has formulas to calculate the data for the test period.

And you can have a laugh back - on the last rig I was doing manual calculations - as in with a calculator









EDIT
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZytheEKS*
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier to take the coolant temp on the inlet, the coolant temp on the outlet, the heat capacity on the water, and the flowrate and figure out the heat removed that way? That way you don't have to worry about precision on the air probes, and possible heat gradient on the radiator due to deadzones from fans.
> 
> -Z


Yep - that's exactly what I'm doing, (because controlled and know heat input) and the sensors are accurate enough - just.
BUT like I said before, for use as a verification check, not a figure to quote, because I have lost many nights sleep going for perfect data sets.
Just impossible without super accurate temp sensors.


----------



## VSG

Sometimes too much data is still too much data


----------



## fast_fate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Sometimes too much data is still too much data


averaging data points which are taken closer reduces noise on the plots though.

@bond32 about to pm you


----------



## VSG

True that


----------



## Unicr0nhunter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Jakusonfire*
> 
> As the guys have said the precision required for that just isn't really available to us. The very small delta would require double or preferably tripple decimal accuracy. By instead measuring the water to air delta the range is increased so inaccuracy is limited.
> 
> Measuring the air delta across a rad won't give you a 120mm unit of cooling, only the full cooling of the entire rad.
> 
> 
> 
> *Measuring the delta if the thermocouples are in the exact same locations in the same plane will.*
> 
> Also a delta between two working fluids is weird. I can see why, and I understand it gives comparative results, but the discussion here deals with that a temp difference involving 2 fluids is just plain wrong.
> 
> Knowing the water temperature reaching equilibrium, is there any noticeable delta across the inlet and outlet of radiators on the water side?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how well that would work seeing as every fan has a unique spread of airflow, and all are uneven 'in the same plane'. What I mean by that is the air exiting an axial / propeller fan doesn't travel in a direction straight away from it.

You easily see the effect in smoke tests. Most fans focus almost all of their airflow coming off the tips of their blades in a cone-shaped outward moving direction like a continuous smoke-ring that keeps getting exponentially larger as it exits the fan with very little if any airflow straight away from the fan, but some do the opposite and most of their airflow is focused inward in a cone-shaped flow towards the center, and the only fans that have any sort of close to evenly distributed airflow coming off them in a straight direction employ a restrictive exhaust-side grill pattern (ex: Silverstone Air Penetrator) that redirects the airflow coming off of the blades.

That's why you would need some sort of tube air chamber directing the airflow to a uniform collection point to get accurate exhaust air flow rates and I'm not sure whether or not accurate exhaust air temps could be recorded from that sort of distance. Could they? In any case the air flow or temp measured even just a short distance in open air exiting an axial / propeller fan would be a mixture of the air coming from the fan and the surrounding air around it and not an accurate representation of just what is coming through the fan.


----------



## bond32

Haven't done anything yet on that data but it's still on the radar...

In other news, been using one of those nemesis gts 240's with a ST30 360 to cool a 290x and 4790k. Only because I'm curious, I am going to use the single 240 and see what temps I get.


----------



## VSG

So I was going to update this and a few other review threads here with more info but thanks to the _incredible_ OCN rules and mods, I will likely not be making any more test contributions or reviews here irrespective of whether I had paid for all the parts or not. Just wanted to say this here since I mentioned earlier about a few more rads and test results coming in.


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> So I was going to update this and a few other review threads here with more info but thanks to the _incredible_ OCN rules and mods, I will likely not be making any more test contributions or reviews here irrespective of whether I had paid for all the parts or not. Just wanted to say this here since I mentioned earlier about a few more rads and test results coming in.

















I'm sorry.. I thought you just stated that OCN won't let you provide hard data that you paid for out of your pocket.

The Cautious One


----------



## VSG

Seeing how they deleted a thread before even giving me the option to edit out the parts that was from a sample to check out, I don't see any reason to bother anymore. But I won't go anymore on that, this is something that's been happening for ages now with guys like Stren and Martin and yet some obvious ones stay around. No wonder Martin lost interest in testing out after the whole forum participation was taken away from him.


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Really Now? Hmm.. Well deepest apollogies for your Loss of Heart VSG. Keep your head up though and thank your for what you have done already

The Cautious One


----------



## Shpongle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> So I was going to update this and a few other review threads here with more info but thanks to the _incredible_ OCN rules and mods, I will likely not be making any more test contributions or reviews here irrespective of whether I had paid for all the parts or not. Just wanted to say this here since I mentioned earlier about a few more rads and test results coming in.


I'm sorry to hear that. I really liked your reviews as they were full of data useful for all sorts of configurations. Will you perhaps post your reviews elsewhere?


----------



## VSG

Please don't apologize. It's not like I was doing this for money anyway lol. I will still be posting it elsewhere on other forums and maybe make a small blog/website also but I really hope OCN forum managers and admin take a good hard look at what's going on- driving modders and reviewers away is not the way to go for a forum that exists solely for content creation and consumption.


----------



## ZytheEKS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Please don't apologize. It's not like I was doing this for money anyway lol. I will still be posting it elsewhere on other forums and maybe make a small blog/website also but I really hope OCN forum managers and admin take a good hard look at what's going on- driving modders and reviewers away is not the way to go for a forum that exists solely for content creation and consumption.












Truly a shame. Come on OCN, we went through this with Martin, Stren, and they're still pulling this? At this rate they're just sabotaging their own traffic.

-Z


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZytheEKS*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truly a shame. Come on OCN, we went through this with Martin, Stren, and they're still pulling this? At this rate they're just sabotaging their own traffic.
> 
> -Z


To be fair, I can understand why they don't allow sponsored reviews if the reason was that these could be biased and be just glorified ads. But the reason seems to be just that a sponsored review program is not in place yet that would require a fee to allow for these to stay. That is what I have a problem with. But this is not the place to discuss all this and I request the topic be not continued on in here if possible.


----------



## Lefty666

Hey G...........Fantastic Job!!!!! Man what an undertaking you took on testing all these 480's, and I just saw you did a few 560's as well.

I have the Case Labs Magnum TH10A with th 31mm Top cover. I plan on , or should say planned on using all 480- Monsta Rads. But I see the diff in fan speeds really make a Big diff!

I wanted some color also good static pressure, so I went with the Enermax TB Vegas fans. reason is the Led's are really cool, but what I really liked is the fact that each fan has an RPM switch so you can

run them at 3 diff speed ranges. The numbers I'm putting up for each mode, i'll be using the Highest number ( Reason is when I turn down the pent's on the fan controller Lamptron Cf525 60 watts per

channel, the led's turn down too, which kind sux). Ultra Silent 500-1200RPM's SP-0.618-1.504, Silent 500-1500RPM's SP-0.618-1.680, and Performance Mode 500-1800RPM's SP-0.618-2.276.

OK, what I really wanted to ask you or tell you is that what I had planned on doing for the CPU Loop, oh I'm using 3 separate loops. 2 are with Monsoon series 2 Res/pump housings, using Ocool VPP655

Pumps with the Monsoons.The 3rd loop is going to be in the Pedestal, I'm using a Delrin Res http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14763/ex-res-335/Aquacomputer_G14_Aquatube_-_White_Delrin_34009.html?tl=g30c97s165&id=RxeP4uhd&mv_pc=2811 with a Shroud http://www.frozencpu.com/products/15743/ex-res-361/Aquacomputer_AquaBay_AT_Baydream_for_Aquatube_-_Rev_15_34906.html?id=RxeP4uhd&mv_pc=2879 As you can see you can use an led plug ,your color choice with a swiftech MPC655 Pump and a 360 Monsta Rad.

I was saying, I planned on using the AC 480 Monsta rad on top in p/p. But I bought the 31mm top. I plan on mounting fans to the rad on the bottm then comedown from the outside of the top of the case into the Rad. But the monsta is still too wide and kinda covers the MB a bit, so I planned on using an XSPC RX 480V3, but now after seeing your AWSOME Reviews, I'm gonna use a Black Ice 480 GTX [email protected] RPM's. Thank You for showing me the diff, B4 I bought the XSPC!!!!
So for the CPU the Loop will Now be the Monsson to the Black Ice 480GTX to the CPU WB Back to the Monsoon. The GPU Lopp will be From the Monsoon, to the monsta 480(In the Ped) then to the GPU
Water Blocks on 2 EVGA Titan Z cards. The last Loop will be the the Delrin Res, to the MCP655 up to a .Now a Black Ice 360GTX,to the Volt reg, then back to the Delrin Res.

Vasically I just wanted to Thank You for this AWSOME Review!!!! I already have 2 Monsta 480's, but since I'm only going to be using 1, Thanks to you, i'll sell it on _bay and get a Black Ice GTX nemesis 480 and 360.
I'm using 2 PSU's also. 2 Corsair Axi's, a 1500 watt for the system, and a 1200 watt for the Pumps and fans. Instead of using an Add2Psu which starts both PSU's at the same time. I bought a separate switch so that II can turn on the 3 loops and check for leaks B4 I start up the board. It's really not hat necessary because I usually run my PC & servers 24/7.
But with this Giant Build, i'll be shutting it down once a week to check for leaks. I'm using all Monsoon Hardline 1/2" x 5/8ths. Some 1/2 x 3/4 flex to go down into the Pedestal. then come up wit Bulhead adapters/connectors, to all hardline Tubing.

Thanks Again for the review, I can only Imagine how long it took you!!!!
How much do you Love your Case Labs case????? I build about 10-15 PC's a year. I'm gonna TRY to push the Case Lab Cases . Because after working in this Beast, it's gonna be Hard to build in regular case, even if it's a full tower!

You Really helped me pick out my Rads Thanks sooooo much!!!!

Lefty/Joe


----------



## VSG

Hey man,

Thanks, I am glad this helped. You may want to wait and see how stren's rad roundup looks (it will be on his website, and not here for obvious reasons). He is doing it with fans in push-pull so the Monsta may yet be a decent choice if just going by thermal performance. There would still be better choices overall I imagine. Whatever you end up doing, choose the rads and fans together to make sure they work great with each other.

I personally wouldn't dedicate a loop to the motherboard blocks alone but if you want to go ahead and can pull it off then I would love to see it in action!

The CL cases are VERY functional and can accommodate a large variety of builds, so hopefully you or I won't have to replace them anytime soon. Good luck with the build and have fun


----------



## fast_fate

After a chat with one of the OCN mods last year which had some very carefully chosen words, I believe we will always have a place to post our data here on OCN.
Just data though


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fast_fate*
> 
> After a chat with one of the OCN mods last year which had some very carefully chosen words, I believe we will always have a place to post our data here on OCN.
> Just data though


Get back to me about this once the ER roundup comes up


----------



## Lefty666

Hey G,

Thanks for the Reply!!!! I will check out Stren's review since he is doing it in P/P.

Lol........ it's kinda a bit late because I bought a Black Ice GTX480 yesterday after reading your review. Like I said though, the Monsta is a bit too wide even with me putting 4 fans on TOP of the Case down into the rad and I'm just gonna mount the fans on the bottom to the rad.
But I would like to see what stren came up with.

Your roundup was Awsome ........ and dam I bet it took a while!!!!!

Yeah these Case Lab cases are Amazing. what I really dig about them is the fact that when new tech comes out, you can undo your Loop Connections and slide out the MB Tray, change the MB & Processor, slide er back in and your all new!!!!! Ready to fly!!!!!

I've been waiting for about 4 months with my Build because I'm waiting on finding 2 Titan Z Hydr Copper cards. And Everyone is out of stock n have been for months. Now they're pushing the 970 & 980's. I actually got a Notification that the 980 Hydr Coppers came in a Newegg.
Like an idiot, I THEN looked at the reviews on youtube and found out that the 980's have a lock on them and you can only OC them I think by 1000Mhz. There is a hardware lock on the voltage you can put in......although the card still performs Fantastically! Nothing like the Titan Z Hydro Copper card though. And I do A lot of a/v rendering work with mixing music and music videos.
That's why I want 2 titan Z's

Here is what I watched the day After I ordered 2 of these cards lol........WoW did zI lean a lesson!!! 



 Check out this dudes testing station.....pretty cool huh.

THanks Again G! Your roundup really helped me out!!!!
Joe


----------



## Lefty666

G

I meant to tell you that my Build consist of the Asus Rampage IV Black Edition MB LGA 2011 X79 & the I7 4960X.

In the last mess I replied to I said how you can slide out the MB Tray and just change the board & proc.

Well, I'm thinking about changing to the Asus X99 Pro MB & I7 Haswell 5960X.

I'm waiting to see a build with that combo and the results of the OC ing!

If They can get it up to around 5GHz. I just checked out some benchmarks on the LGA 2011 V-3 5960X

Here are a few links, and after watching these, I'm going to switch the MB & the Processor. I have a few full ower cases layin around & I have 2 buddies that want the R4E Black Edition & the 4960x. So I'll put it together for which ever one bids higher lol. 








The one thing that sux is the price of the DDR4 Ram, ahh it's no t as much more expensive than the DDR3 2133 abot $150 more for a dual/quad 32 gig DDR4 2400 kit Corsair Dominator http://www.corsair.com/en-us/dominator-platinum-series-32gb-4-x-8gb-ddr4-dram-2400mhz-c14-memory-kit-cmd32gx4m4a2400c14
Can prob get it cheaper somewhere else. After watching these vids,and a few others, I'm definitely going with the Asus X99 Pro & the LGA 2011 V-3 5960X. Maybe it was a blessing that I couldn't get the Titan Z'z yet????
Lemme know what you think? Oh her, check out the specs on the MB....outrageously awesome!!!!!!! I meant say the Asus X99 deluxe MB

So Check out the specs http://www.asus.com/us/Compare/

Hope to hear from ya!!!

Lefty/Joe


----------



## VSG

You would get better answers in the Haswell-E club here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1510388/haswell-e-overclock-leaderboard-owners-club/0_50

I would personally tinker with what you have first and understand how the system works before spending a lot of money to go to the Haswell-E platform. Getting a stable 5 GHz core under water for the 5960x is very, very hard from everything I have seen. Of course stability is relative and that's why I suggested posting in the thread linked above.


----------



## sicksigm4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lefty666*
> 
> Hey G,
> 
> Thanks for the Reply!!!! I will check out Stren's review since he is doing it in P/P.
> 
> Lol........ it's kinda a bit late because I bought a Black Ice GTX480 yesterday after reading your review. Like I said though, the Monsta is a bit too wide even with me putting 4 fans on TOP of the Case down into the rad and I'm just gonna mount the fans on the bottom to the rad.
> But I would like to see what stren came up with.
> 
> Your roundup was Awsome ........ and dam I bet it took a while!!!!!


LOL I actually did the same thing after reading this review. Awesome work geggeg, thanks for the time and effort.


----------



## TheCautiousOne

I purchased the 480mm Ek Coolstreams After Reading this. Now just to paint them white....

Coolstream

Bought Two of them. Thanks again VSG

The Cautious One


----------



## VSG

Well seeing how I didn't even test them, I am not sure if I deserve any credit


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Well seeing how I didn't even test them, I am not sure if I deserve any credit










I've made.. a huge mistake... Oh no..

THe Cautious One


----------



## Unicr0nhunter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheCautiousOne*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *TheCautiousOne*
> 
> I purchased the 480mm Ek Coolstreams After Reading this. Now just to paint them white....
> 
> Coolstream
> 
> Bought Two of them. Thanks again VSG
> 
> The Cautious One
> 
> 
> 
> Well seeing how I didn't even test them, I am not sure if I deserve any credit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've made.. a huge mistake... Oh no..
> 
> THe Cautious One
Click to expand...

No mistake. Good rads!

http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/19/ek-coolstream-rad-xtx-360/

Might be a bit of a middle of the pack performance-wise, but that's not bad, and they are well-built. Also really nice they have ports on both sides and a bleed port on the other end. I used two of them in my nephew's build. You should be happy with your purchase.


----------



## VSG

Yeah, no need to worry about anything there.


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Unicr0nhunter*
> 
> No mistake. Good rads!
> 
> http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/19/ek-coolstream-rad-xtx-360/
> 
> Might be a bit of a middle of the pack performance-wise, but that's not bad, and they are well-built. Also really nice they have ports on both sides and a bleed port on the other end. I used two of them in my nephew's build. You should be happy with your purchase.


Good STuff!!!

THe Cautious ONe


----------



## B NEGATIVE

Great test thread,well worth a read.


----------



## VSG

Thanks man. There will be more coming in soon.. elsewhere.


----------



## TheCautiousOne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Thanks man. There will be more coming in soon.. *elsewhere.*


----------



## ENTERPRISE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> So I was going to update this and a few other review threads here with more info but thanks to the incredible OCN rules and mods, I will likely not be making any more test contributions or reviews here irrespective of whether I had paid for all the parts or not. Just wanted to say this here since I mentioned earlier about a few more rads and test results coming in.


Please see your inbox. Lets chat


----------



## VSG

PM replied to, thanks for the reach out either way- I definitely appreciate it


----------



## TheCautiousOne

THis is so... so.. Nice.







Hope it works out.

THe Cautious One


----------



## 2002dunx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Well seeing how I didn't even test them, I am not sure if I deserve any credit


I thoroughly enjoyed the analysis and appreciate your hard work on this project....

But, I went out and bought the item that was in stock nearest to me ! LoL.... Even though I have room for a Monsta 420mm, I didn't want to go to 2K rpm to get it to perform.

I managed to find a white Alphacool UT 60 420mm radiator and as predicted by your data it's working great at low to medium fan rpms.

+Rep to you Sir ! And thank you.

dunx

P.S. Still have room for a Black Ice Nemesis GTX 420mm radiator in the back of the machine too ! LOL !


----------



## VSG

I tested the UT60 360mm in the SR2 review linked in my sig. It's a good performer as you well found out yourself. Just clean it up properly!


----------



## Lefty666

geggeg,

I'm gonna take your advice on just tinkering with the R$E Black Edition MB & th I7 4960X. Because as you just said the answers to ALL of the vids I watched wit the X-99 MB's n the I7 5960X.

The Highest OC I've seen is 4.75. I now every system is gonna give you diff volt stings that work. but that's not the only problems I can see. I have the ROG ASUS Radidr 240 Gig PCIE Card.

Now it does work on the X-99 platform, but from some of the articles I've read, you lose certain slots. Another thing is if you sli only 2 cards , which is what I am doing, 1 of the cards Block or as the article says KILLS the connection to the upcoming SATA Express Port. I found the link again, so I'll post it & u ca see what I'm talkin about.
Tha article is called secrets of the X-99??? I THink????

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/printpage/ASUS-X99-DELUXE-Motherboard/1877

Check out the slots part. This article is called ASUS X-99 Hardware Secrets. there is ASLOT of good info you definitely should look at if your going to upgrade to the X-99.

So Bro,

I'm takin your advice and stickin with the 4960X & R4E Balck edition MB

Hey , Thanks again for all that hard work you did on the roundup!!!!!!!! By the way, do you have a link to Stren's p/p Roundup????
Thanks dude,

Lefty/joe


----------



## VSG

His roundup isn't done yet I believe. I already have an x99 rig which is working great, and good to hear your x79 setup is working well for you!


----------



## skline00

geggeg: First THANK YOU for all the work you have done. Your review was quite helpful to me in my build. I just purchased a Thermaltake Core X9 case in February of this year and decided to put a 5960x/RE5 combo together.

I have a MO RA3-420 but decided to sell it and my 3930k/ x79 combo to jump to the 5960x/x99 setup.

My case is a BIG simple, relatively inexpensive case that can internally hold 3 480 rads plus push fans. Since I already owned an EK 480 PE rad from a FX 8350 build I was going to just buy 2 more EK 480s and be done with it.

In my 3930k build I started with a XSPC RX360 rad and added the external MO- Ra3 instead of sinkling all the $$$ into a Caselabs type case.

Mainline case builders didn't have a case to fit 3 480 rads, even the Corsair 900D, until the release this Jan of the Core X9.

Your review was a godsend to me! I'm still using the EK in the loop but opted for 2 XSPC RX480 v3s for the other 2 rads. Your review and my prior experience with a much older RX360 convinced me they were the way to go. Was actually thinking of ditching the EK and going with all 3 RX 480s but why spend another @$125 for not a ton of gain?

I was also luck to snag 12 Gentle Typhoon AP15 GT fans. What great fans. I'm using a NZXT 6 channel fan controller (2 fans per channel) and I can vary the upped depending on load.

Keep up the good work. You have no idea how much your research has helped water coolers such as me!

PS. To the poster above, I "had to have" a 5960x/x99 combo (not really but my birthday was coming up so I figured that's how I would justify it). From my experience with a 3930k to now the 5960x, 3930ks could clock higher BUT that is to be expected.

I would be VERY skeptical of a 5960x that's listed at 4.75 GHZ as being a stable chip 24/7 unless that person won the silicon lottery AND was applying LN to it.

My 5960x sits with a manual vcore of 1.32 clocked at 44 x 100 and is rock solid running Asus ROG RealBench stress test hours upon hours.


----------



## VSG

I am happy to hear this helped, do check out the XtremeRigs roundup also if interested!


----------



## kaistledine

awesome read !
Thank you


----------



## PePoX

heey! im here im late i dont care xD but i wanted to ask

with 2 pumps (couple d5) at 50% speed and with the e-loop fans @800 rpm (quad radiator 480) the best choise here would be the XSPC RX480 V3 right?

btw great great review i appreciate the effort you put in this!


----------



## VSG

Hello,

Sure, that will do a great job. You can also look at the Black Ice Nemesis GTS/GTX if you are space limited.


----------

