# SOLVED: Suffering judder / frameloss when playing 23,976 on HTPC.



## KrazeyKami

Hi all,

Yesterday I bought a new Samsung TV, the UE46D7000. I have a home-built HTPC connected with the following hardware specs:

APU: AMD A8 3850 / 2.9 GHz - Socket FM1 - L2 4 MB - Box
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-A75M-UD2H (rev. 1.0)
Memory: 4 GB G. SKILL Ripjaws X Series DDR3
HD: OCZ Vertex 2 SSD 60GB

Connected to a (wired) network 1000M, movies are on a Synology NAS.
Furthermore, Windows 7, media browser combined with FFDShow and MPC-HC.

Runs like a train.
But now ...

Yesterday I was watching movies and that was all wonderful (Bitstream through my amp, etc) until I played back Avatar ... I noticed that the playback was quite jerky. It is just enough to be annoying. I then tried a few things (other codecs, other players etc) but it didn't get any better. Only with Win7Codecs Shark and playback on standard WMP11 looked a little better / less jerky, but these codecs + player are not really an option imo.

Now Samsung has a built SmartHUB that you can use to play (amongst others) movies from your network. Avatar I started for fun and .... WOW!

What a smooth playback! No jitter / jerky playback, but even stranger: 10x better picture quality! It seems that the quality is just better.

Then I tried the other films that played back good through the HTPC, e.g. Terminator 4 and it's just a lot better through the SmartHUB!
I have compared a particular scene from the HTPC with the Samsung SmartHUB and it seems as if the HTPC playback has a very fine layer of jitter on e.g. a face of an actor. A sort of interlace. If I had not put both playbacks together, I had never seen the difference, but when comparing the SmartHUB is significantly better.

There are more disadvantages than advantages, unfortunately, media browser can't be used via television and the Folder List / Browser feature is rather basic. Furthermore, the worst: No bitstream.

In retrospect, the difference in quality is still acceptable if you are playing through the HTPC, but I do miss is the playback speed. It has (as far as I can judge) to do with the refresh rate. I've read about ReClock, but this tool would not be needed with MPC-HC (or so I read).
My guess is that MPC-HC can probably be tweaked so the refresh rate is better, but I wonder if this can match the quality of playing through the SmartHUB. What a difference!

I have to say tho, that the 'refresh problem' only occurs with Avatar; other movies play back smoothly. The quality tho is much better with the SmartHUB.

Has anyone else ever noticed this? If not and you have a Samsung LED TV, try it once for fun. You will be amazed at the difference.

If anyone know about this and has the 'holy grail settings' for MPC-HC to get the same quality, then please let me know!









P.S.,
It might all be a 'hardware vs software' issue, altho I hope some1 has perfect settings for the playback with MPC-HC (after all, with Shark's codec and WMP11 it's nearly as good).

Kind regards,
Kami.


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## jbjmed

Thats strange. That hardware shouldnt have any issues playing anything. I just use xbmc to play everything now and dont have to worry about codecs. Maybe somone can help with codec settings.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk


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## katana2k3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jbjmed;15419764*
> Thats strange. That hardware shouldnt have any issues playing anything. I just use xbmc to play everything now and dont have to worry about codecs. Maybe somone can help with codec settings.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk


Second that xbmc seems to play everything better. Running it on my vizio led, without problems. Picture quality is still phenomenal. Maybe try running xbmc-live off a usb stick and see if you notice a difference?


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## Deathviper

Probably nothing, but if you have a spare video card you could throw in there and test to make sure your not having a problem with the CPU/GPU.


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## JeremyFr

I've got no problems with PQ on my HTPC, I use Media Browser/Win7WMC, with Shark007 Codec's, Have it set to use MPC-HC and ffdshow for video, audio is all bitstreamed straight into my Reciever and decoded there. PQ has been quite amazing, no jitter etc.

Not sure what your problem may be, I can honestly say that since upgrading to my 6450 it's been even better than the old on board video on my Mobo, I know you're running one of the new APU's from AMD, but to be honest I'm a strong believer in discreet graphics cards no matter what at this point.


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## KrazeyKami

Hi all, thx for the replies.

The differences in quality between playing on the HTPC and the Samsung SmartHUB are nearly not noticable, but it's there. I'll try with XBMC and see if that gives a better picture then the current setup.

As for Avatar; it seems that due to it's high bitrating it can be very demanding from certain codecs. I'll try and play around a bit with some other different programs, but for now, the (nearly not noticable) little frameskip only occurs with the HTPC and not with the SmartHUB.

Other movies play just fine tho.


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## KrazeyKami

Ok, i've tested XMBC, and this is what i noticed:

- XMBC playback / refreshrate is better then MPC-HC;
- When checking the 'adjust refresh rate to the display' checkbox, the playback gets _very close near_ to the SmartHUB playback;

- I noticed that it doesn't use bitstreaming tho, so i tried to turn bitstreaming off in MPC-HC; The playback became _much_ better. So it seems, that bitstreaming is messing with my playback refreshrate.

I tried to adjust / play around with all settings in both MPC-HC and XBMC, and compared the playback to each other and to the SmartHUB; I used the first 2 minutes of Avatar (extended cut) to compare playback refreshrate, and the scene starting @ 25:00 minutes to compare the lip-sync with the audio.

However, i nocited a little setback, next to the unability to bitstream audio: The sound sync is a bit off with the picture when using XMBC.

These are the results:

Smoothness of playback (where 1 is best):

1. SmartHUB
2. XBMC
3. MPC-HC

Lip-sync (where 1 is best):

1. SmartHUB
2. MPC-HC
3. XBMC

Best audio / stream:

1. MPC-HC (TrueHD / Master HD DTS Bitstreaming)
2. XBMC (regular DTS)
3. SmartHUB (Prologic II / 5.1)

I also tried to use the 'auto adjust frame rate' setting in MPC-HC, and used these settings:










It made the playback 10 times worse. Any thoughts on the above?


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## KrazeyKami

I did some testing last night, and i must admit, that i had some problems while playing Clash of the Titans through the Samsung. It gave some frameloss, and constant loading... to fetch content. Seems that Avatar didn't have this problem, but it appears alot of others movies don't play well.

I've tried to find the problem i have by elimination:

- first i took out the receiver and connected my HTPC directly to the TV. When playing, the frameloss was significantly better. However, i do see a very small hickup, very rare. I'm getting to a point where i think maybe i'm too demanding and to *****y about 1 little almost unnoticable hickup.

Anyway, without the amp it was better. First i thought my amp might be causing the problem, but then i realised that at this point no bitstreaming was occuring. Then i decided to reconnect the amp, but don't turn it on, only letting it pass through the HDMI signal.

I got exact the same results as with no amp connected. Finally, i turned on the amp, and turned off the bitstreaming through FFdAudio: Exactly the same result as the above 2.

At this point i'm wondering if it might be a problem with the bitstreaming. Also i'm starting to doubt the movies that i've ripped with DVDFab, cause untill now, the problems i'm having occur with movies that i remuxed earlier from a unaltered BD50/25.

I'm testing tonight with Avatar unaltered _with_ bitstreaming to see if the problem is still there.


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## KrazeyKami

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KrazeyKami;15456848*
> I did some testing last night, and i must admit, that i had some problems while playing Clash of the Titans through the Samsung. It gave some frameloss, and constant loading... to fetch content. Seems that Avatar didn't have this problem, but it appears alot of others movies don't play well.
> 
> I've tried to find the problem i have by elimination:
> 
> - first i took out the receiver and connected my HTPC directly to the TV. When playing, the frameloss was significantly better. However, i do see a very small hickup, very rare. I'm getting to a point where i think maybe i'm too demanding and to *****y about 1 little almost unnoticable hickup.
> 
> Anyway, without the amp it was better. First i thought my amp might be causing the problem, but then i realised that at this point no bitstreaming was occuring. Then i decided to reconnect the amp, but don't turn it on, only letting it pass through the HDMI signal.
> 
> I got exact the same results as with no amp connected. Finally, i turned on the amp, and turned off the bitstreaming through FFdAudio: Exactly the same result as the above 2.
> 
> At this point i'm wondering if it might be a problem with the bitstreaming. Also i'm starting to doubt the movies that i've ripped with DVDFab, cause untill now, the problems i'm having occur with movies that i remuxed earlier from a unaltered BD50/25.
> 
> I'm testing tonight with Avatar unaltered _with_ bitstreaming to see if the problem is still there.


Even tho it looks a bit better, i still have this really minor framehop every several seconds. again, barely unnoticable.

Gonna try older drivers, e.g. 11.4 from Ati as opposed to 11.9. If not better, gonna follow 2 more guides that i found.... this thing is driving me nuts.


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## KrazeyKami

Well.... Seems that the only drivers supporting the A8 APU is 11.7 and up. Tried with 11.7, 11.8, 11.9... no difference.

I followed this very extensive guide to the letter: http://www.homecinema-hd.com/intro_en.html

The results: The same crap. However, i did notice 2 things:

- According to MadVR Statistics, i have 0 frame drops, and 0 frame delays in fullscreen playback;
- I do see one strange contradiction: 1 frame is dropped every ~ 5 seconds; Why does it says there are 0 frame drops? (In the example from the guide, 1 frame is dropped every 22 hours);
- My GPU is at 30% load with MadVR;

If there is no frameloss and my GPU can handle it with it's eyes closed, then why i have this jerky playback??

There is one more thing that i can think off: My TV seems not to be supporting true 24P.

Is this a problem? I've configured AutoFrequency to the guide's settings, and there are settings for 24P or non-24P TV's (where everything is changed to 60 or 50 HZ).

Can this be the reason for my jerky playback, and could it be solved with adjusting the AutoFrequency to 24P / non 24P? Totally lost here....

If any1 is out there that can understand why this is happening and can help me, please do. I feel like i'm getting screwed by a God or something, since i've bought top of the line hardware and followed every guide, simple and advanced, and i still get a crappy playback, while others seem to have perfect picture with the littelest of settings.....


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## KrazeyKami

One more thing;
I've changed the refreshrate for 23,976 movies from 60 to 24Hz, and now the judder is much better, only to have problems with audio / lipsync.

When playing @ 60Hz, lipsync is perfect, but suffering judder....


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## SDriver

You should try the Shark Codec pack.


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## daveojr77

Try Zoom Player, I had the sam problems and someone from another forum told me to try it and voila, no more problems....sad to say goodbye to VLC though....


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## KrazeyKami

ok, i think ive found the problem: My Samsung UE46D7000, and to be more precise, its playback enhancers, motion plus...

When i put my hdmi input in PC / game mode, all problems are solved. yet, it seems that with motion plus (which is turned off because of game mode) the playback is much more smoother (apart from the random judder ive been suffering). Thats why at the beginning of this thread, i got confused how much better the playback looked when playing through the smarthub, since then, game mode is off and motion plus is applied).

Ive also tested by hooking up a iiyama 24 inch full hd tft screen through hdmi, thus not using my tv, and i get the same results as with game mode on the tv (and thus without motion plus).

My questions now:

1. Can i expect just as much smoothness with other tvs, as with motion plus from samsung? Or is that an enhancer that only comes with samsung tvs (and gives problems when watching through a pc / htpc device)?

2. Is my TV 24P compatible and if not, could that be the reason for the stuttering when applying motion plus?


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## KrazeyKami

Well, i've figured it out...

I went to the BCC (a AV store in Holland) this afternoon with my HTPC, and i've hooked it up to all TV's in the store: Sony, Philips, LG, Panasonic, Samsung, plasma, LCD, LED, the works.

The problem with the judder is _everywhere_. And now i'm also clear on what my problem is called:

Telecine judder.

The problem is this:
In Holland (and most part of Europe), due to our 50Hz electricity network, you can only have 100hz/200hz TV's. These get upscaled to the 400/800Hz CMR types.

It is impossible to have a 120/240/480/960 Hz TV in Holland. And why is this important?

Because a 120/240/480/960 TV will be perfectly dividable by 24, thus making a perfect seamless output, also known as 5:5 Pulldown.

In Holland, we have 3:2 pulldown with 24P movies, since e.g 100hz divided by 24 is not a perfect round number.

So basicly, EVERYBODY in Holland has the same telecine judder, no matter what people say, as long as they have a LED / LCD TV and try to play 24P / NTSC movies.

What makes the judder more obvious tho, is the 400/800 Hz Clear Motion, or Full Motion technique; the telecine judder gets worse with this.
Because of the artificial doubling of the 100/200 Hz, the effect gets twice or 3 times worse.

So now, i have a dillema.... Either just accept the judder, or buy a plasma screen that has 600Hz, which is perfectly dividable by 24 and doesn't have the issue....

I must admit from all the TV's i've tested, there was 1 TV that had the littelest problems with the Telecine Judder: The Sony Bravia KDL HX820.

For some reason, it was able to play back very smooth, with an occasional small judder sometimes, but not as frequent as with all the other types. Even the Sony Bravya KDL HX920, which has 800 Hz opposed to the 400Hz the HX820 uses, had more judder problems then his little brother.

Community, what say thee?
Is Plasma the way to go in Holland for perfect smooth playback? And if so, what type?


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## KrazeyKami

For more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_standards_conversion#Telecine_judder

Quote from the site:

"Telecine judder

The "3:2 pulldown" conversion process for 24 frame/s film to television (telecine) creates a slight error in the video signal compared to the original film frames.

This is one reason why NTSC films viewed on typical home equipment may _not appear as smooth_ as when viewed in a cinema. The phenomenon is particularly _apparent during slow, steady camera movements which appear slightly jerky_ when telecined.

This process is commonly referred to as telecine judder.

PAL material in which 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown has been applied, suffers from a similar _lack of smoothness_, though this effect is not usually called "telecine judder".

In effect every 12th film frame is displayed for the duration of 3 PAL fields (60 milliseconds) - whereas the other 11 frames are all displayed for the duration of 2 PAL fields (40 milliseconds). _*This causes a slight "hiccup" in the video about twice a second*_."

So basicly, every1 in this country has the judder.
You can see for yourself, google for the UE46D7000. Notice how it has 400/800Hz. Now, google for the UN46D7000. It's the same TV, but the US model. Notice how this one has 480/960Hz AND Full 24P Cinema support. It's because its Hz rate is perfectly dividable by 24.

But, i did find out what makes it nearly unnoticable:

Samsung TV's (the new generation) have a setting, Game Mode, which completely turns off all image enhancers plus the frame interpolation, or Motion Plus technique, so u will get flawless picture. This is the true, original playback. Motion Plus adds additional frames in between the 24P, so it looks smoother than it actually is. It's also called the Soap Opera affect, loved by some, hated by others.

The way to go, is to NOT turn on Game Mode, but to set the Motion Plus to 'Clear'.
Next to this, turn ON the LED Motion Plus.

Now, you will have the sharp, coloured and enhanced picture quality, due most enhancers are turned on, but you don't have the extra judder that occurs when using frame interpolation on a 24P movie played on a PAL 60 Hz system, like the ones we use here in Holland.

Now, the picture looks like it's being boosted with Motion Plus, just a slight fraction less, but it looks definitly better then the Game Mode, in which everything is turned off.

Atleast now you don't have the stuttering that happens when Motion Plus is set to Standard and thus used fully.

So basicly, any1 who has a 100/200HZ TV that claims they don't have the stutter problem, is running in a mode that does not apply full frame interpolation, like the Samsung Motion Plus is. Like i said earlier in the thread, if you have never seen full Motion Plus before applied to a movie, you'd never see the difference with a 'normal' 24 playback.

I decided to stick with the UE46D7000, and use the above settings. It gives the best of both worlds. Was tempted to take a Sony Bravia KDL HX820, but this one has problems of its own.

Thanks all for the support, and hopefully other people will find this threat usefull.

Just remember, that when you live in a country that uses 100/200HZ TV's or have 50/60HZ broadcast on cable, you will NEVER be able to enjoy Full 24P Cinema.

For more info and proof on the subject, check this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p

"24p material can be converted to the PAL format with the same methods used to convert film to PAL. The most popular method is to speed up the material by 25/24 (4%). Each 24p frame will take the place of two 50i fields. This method incurs no motion artifacts other than the slightly increased speed, which is typically not noticeable. As for audio, the ~4% increase in speed raises the pitch by 0.7 of a semitone, which again typically is not noticed. Sometimes the audio is pitch shifted to restore the original pitch.

*If 24p footage cannot be sped up, (for example if it were coming through a live NTSC or HD feed) it instead can be converted in a pattern where most frames were held on screen for two fields, but every half second a frame would be held for three fields. Thus the viewer would see motion stutter twice per second*. This was the common result when programs were shot on film or had film portions, edited on NTSC, and then shown in PAL countries (mostly music videos). NTSC to PAL conversion also tends to blur each film frame into the next, and so is seen as a sub-optimal way to view film footage."

Kind regards,
Kami.


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## rmp459

I spent months getting 23.97 fed correctly into my 46" vizio.

My best result in terms of audio, picture, and lip sync/timing was with mpc-hc and reclock while running coreavc for most decoding and ffdshow for the odd balls and raw sub overlay.

Reclock using wasapi out to my receiver or dac and the auto resolution/refreah rate adjustment of mpc to match the content.

The only issue ull have here is that if your using a receiver for surround sound youll need to output 7ch (or w/e) pcm via a newer hdmi gpu since toslink wont pass that many decoded channels. By decoding on the pc you let reclock perfectly adjust your 24p content with the audio and the refresh rate to minimize dropped framea and sync issues.

Once you sort out pulldown and judder and get 24p content @ 23.97hz there is no going back. Regular 60hz content just looks terrible.

I found my favorite viewing settings to be feeding the 23.97 hz signal to my hdtv and then turn the interpolation on the 120hz setting for the closest thing to real 5:5 pulldown without having a true 120hz panel. Plus the vizeo is ips and has full array led with local dimming. Looks pretty nice for the price.

Really makes you wonder what hollywood and everyone involved in tv broadcasting were thinking when they established ntsc standards for video and 24p for film.


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## KrazeyKami

Yes, i now completely understand what you are saying. 2 weeks ago, i was totally flabbergasted that my brand new TV was playing back with some judder / crappy motion. Now that i've dived into the subject, i'm even more flabbergasted that this problem even exists. Basicly, we aren't able to play eachothers movies with the most perfect settings because of this Hz infrequency. And finally i do now understand why there are still people that claim to have perfect playback: They just don't know how pretty it can be with real perfect playback. Glad to see more and more support on the subject.

I even considered to make a specialized power travo to use 110 Volts instead of the 220 Volt we use here in Holland, so i can get myself a 240 Hz TV







But even then like you say, you will have the same problem the other way around.


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## wekeat

Hi Kami,

Thx for posting this. Very interesting.
I'm fighting with the same problem...

What about 46C7000?
It has CMR 600, it divides with 24.
Perfect match for both worlds?

Br,
Wekeat


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