# using solder for thermal paste



## Pyranite

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michinmuri* 
Has anyone ever tried or thought of using solder as thermal paste? I know that it would a pretty permanent bond between the CPU and heatsink but wouldn't it be a better heat transfer than using paste? I'm thinking of doing it for giggles.

doesnt conventional solder have a tendency to melt at lowish temps?


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## cuy50

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pyranite* 
doesnt conventional solder have a tendency to melt at lowish temps?

The lowest melting point of most solder is 90 degrees Celsius, so it would theoretically be safe.


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## Manyak

Sure....Intel actually uses it themselves between the die and the IHS.


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## michinmuri

I just read in wiki that even the lower ones melt at like 430F. They should work and without damaging the CPU. I did some reasearch before asking this seemingly "dumb" question.


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## michinmuri

kewl. is there any evidence that it works better than, say, AS5?


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## 0rion

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pyranite* 
doesnt conventional solder have a tendency to melt at lowish temps?

Computer chips traditionally run between 20C and 100C, solder wont melt at such cool temperatures. It takes a few hundred degrees to get solder to liquify.

OP- Solder is used to keep the IHS on the chip sometimes, especially with newer chips. Its generally considered a pain because of the reason you specified, its too permanent. Plus, It probably doesnt work as well as something like Arctic Silver does at heat transfer.

edit: I take too long to type......


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## cuy50

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michinmuri* 
I just read in wiki that even the lower ones melt at like 430F. They should work and without damaging the CPU. I did some reasearch before asking this seemingly "dumb" question.

The trick would be to keep the solder hot enough so it remains liquid while you add the heatsink, but then I imagine the CPU could get damaged by warming solder on it...and then also solder can get messy....


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## CoolerMasterD

Let me know what the results are if you do it









You live in Lexington! ZOMG!


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## d3v0

I hope you try this on some old P3/Duron or something


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## michinmuri

Well, I guess I need to look at the heat transfer rate of certain solder mixes and the transfer rate of AS5 and all that. They also have some solders that contain silver, but the melting points are very high, but some have been made that are low. I bet that kind is very expensive.


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## michinmuri

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CoolerMasterD* 
You live in Lexington! ZOMG!

Nothing special about that, other than if you also live here, it's obviously a small world. I actually met someone on here that I was in band and graduated with.


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## Vlasov_581




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## TEntel

It wouldn't damage the CPU.

At least on person on this forum has taken a heatgun to his CPU in order to reflow the solder under the IHS.


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## michinmuri

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TEntel*


At least on person on this forum has taken a heatgun to his CPU in order to reflow the solder under the IHS.


I don't wanna go that far (I think.) I just want better conductivity than paste, and was thinking maybe solder would be a good bet even if permanent.


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## 003

This is a terrible idea. In theory, it would work. In practice... it would be much to easy to apply too much heat and kill the CPU. Keep in mind, the die is attached to the substrate via solder. I can't believe nobody has tossed up the most obvious solution here... Coollaboratory Liquid Pro.

And yes, it works and it works well. In fact, it is the best performing TIM you can get today. Just don't use it on aluminum.


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## jtypin

i do not think solder is permanent, just re melt it, take off the HS then keep it warm while wiping it off? btw this is with the CPU OUT OF THE BOARD


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## TEntel

Quote:



Originally Posted by *michinmuri*


I don't wanna go that far (I think.) I just want better conductivity than paste, and was thinking maybe solder would be a good bet even if permanent.



Of course.

My point is that the heat won't damage the CPU.

As long as it is not in the board, running, it can take massive amounts of heat. Obscene amounts.

I say go for it.
I've tossed the idea around a bit myself.

It will obviously work great.
I'm certain solder will conduct heat very well, and it will maximize the surface area between CPU and heatsink.

Keep in mind that too much TIM acts as an insulator, but too little results in less contact area between CPU and heatsink, which means that it is inevitable that you aren't getting optimal heat transfer.
Lapping helps of course, but still isn't perfect.


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## michinmuri

CPU and heat sink are lapped down to copper, so the transferance of heat between those two surfaces will be better than stock. Just wanted to get some opinions/facts to see if it would work better than AS5 andt he like due to it being a liguid versus a paste.

003, I will use liquid pro in my next build, that will not be so permanent. This one I may give to a friend soon and could care less if the heat sink and CPU are (mostly) permanently attached.


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## sabermetrics

just wanted to know... how are you going to add the solder? Solder takes very little time to re-solidify, and the amount of time you have to set the cooler down would be very small... and also, how are you going to reheat the solder once the cooler's mounted? you can't really heat up the motherboard along with it..


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## michinmuri

Here's this...

http://www.indium.com/documents/appl...otes/98104.pdf

Looks like indium is the way to go, but not sure where to get it or how much it is.

As for adding the solder; carefully. My vision is toget the CPU as close to the liquid solder as possible, then when it sems like the right time to place it, drop it on there, but use gloves and goggles for protection against a potential splash. Also, just like grease, only a rice or pea sized bit will be needed.

As for the cooler, why would I want to reheat the solder? Oh, I think I see what you mean. It's hard to close the little lever on the CPU lock on the mobo with a hulking cooler on it. I guess you could put the CPU in the socket, drop a small amount of solder on there and then put the cooler on. This might be the only problem with this method.


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## The Duke

This lends a new meaning to "I pulled my CPU out of the socket with the HS"


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## michinmuri

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Duke*


This lends a new meaning to "I pulled my CPU out of the socket with the HS"


I do this all the time. Not sure how to when you (unfortunately) apply too much grease. It becomes more like glue than thermal compound.

Also, look at this...

http://www.indium.com/TIM/

possibly an enthusiasts dream.


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## PaRaDoX_883

I think it would work. But you kinda only got one shot, if you put the HS on wrong then its kinda.. ON, unless you could somehow get the soldering gun under there and heat it up again.

Another fun test would be to see if you could get the CPU hot enough for it to turn the solder back to liquid!


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## PappyDan

solder will only afix it's self to areas where flux is applyed. 
no flux then the solder will just turn in to a ball. 
most solder is 85 to 90% silver, you can even find pure silver solder.

the main problem is how are you going to cool it down before the heat does any damage. 
now you can map the area for contact on the heat sink, flux that space and do what is called annealing. 
that way all you have to do is flux the other part, heat up the heat sink to remelt the solder and just touch the two together to make a bond. 
then your right back at the same question, how are you going to cool it down fast before any damage is done.


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## sLowEnd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *michinmuri*


Here's this...

http://www.indium.com/documents/appl...otes/98104.pdf

Looks like indium is the way to go, but not sure where to get it or how much it is.

As for adding the solder; carefully. My vision is toget the CPU as close to the liquid solder as possible, then when it sems like the right time to place it, drop it on there, but use gloves and goggles for protection against a potential splash. Also, just like grease, only a rice or pea sized bit will be needed.

As for the cooler, why would I want to reheat the solder? Oh, I think I see what you mean. It's hard to close the little lever on the CPU lock on the mobo with a hulking cooler on it. I guess you could put the CPU in the socket, drop a small amount of solder on there and then put the cooler on. This might be the only problem with this method.


Coollaboratory's liquid metal pad has indium
To get it to melt and bond to your CPU, you have to heat it to around 60 degrees (I believe coollaboratory suggests running your heatsink without a fan for a few seconds)


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## vgplayer

Quote:



Originally Posted by *michinmuri*


Here's this...

http://www.indium.com/documents/appl...otes/98104.pdf

Looks like indium is the way to go, but not sure where to get it or how much it is.

As for adding the solder; carefully. My vision is toget the CPU as close to the liquid solder as possible, then when it sems like the right time to place it, drop it on there, but use gloves and goggles for protection against a potential splash. Also, just like grease, only a rice or pea sized bit will be needed.

As for the cooler, why would I want to reheat the solder? Oh, I think I see what you mean. It's hard to close the little lever on the CPU lock on the mobo with a hulking cooler on it. I guess you could put the CPU in the socket, drop a small amount of solder on there and then put the cooler on. This might be the only problem with this method.


We use Indium to attach gold wires to our thin film samples in the physics' research lab I work at. One thing for sure is it is a pain to get it to stick to anything but then again our surface isn't a piece of metal.


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## hiiyah777

So have you done it yet?

I really want to know how it works out.


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## michinmuri

unfortunately no. Don't have the money yet, and I want to get more research. Also, I'd like to get a better heatsink (lapped TRUE possibly) and lap the CPU a bit more. Since lapping I've actually gotten a stable OC of 3GHz, which was my goal when I built this thing. I've gotten it to about 3.15 GHZ, but of course wasn't stable in windows. Also, I might want to track down a 5000+ BE before I do this, just to see how far I can push it. If I get this new job I am loking at, I'l be building something new, but for 4-6 months. Gonna wait for a Deneb BE that has a good stepping. Once I get this done I'll post some stuff.


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## fashionnugget

Quote:



Originally Posted by *PaRaDoX_883*


I think it would work. But you kinda only got one shot, if you put the HS on wrong then its kinda.. ON, unless you could somehow get the soldering gun under there and heat it up again.

Another fun test would be to see if you could get the CPU hot enough for it to turn the solder back to liquid!


I really doubt you would. I'm fairly sure the processor would fail before the metal would melt....


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## tieyouup

Ive added a stock amd 64 (much modified) heatsink to my TT beetle h/s but i had to remove the stock TT mounting brackets first. The only way to get enough heat was to use a oxy torch worked perfectly but the TT copper base also fell off. Got that back on and alinged (scarey tho). Works perfect.

I suggest you try marking out on the base of H/S the exact position of the cpu apply heat to the base (have the H/s in some sort of jig) apply solder carefully place the cpu in place. I think you will only get 1 go at it. Ide like to see it work.


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## Enigma8750

You know I thought about the process that would work to bond the Cpu to the Cooler and I came up with a personal gas torch that you would make the CPU hot enough to accept the solder and the time it would take to bond the cooler to the CPU. Also the resale value of a torched CPU might not be too viable.. but If you plan on this test Please take video. Sounds like a winner for Youtube.


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## michinmuri

One thought of mine was to actually use some sort of drill (possibly have some enigineeer-type person to use a CNC machine) to groove out about a 1mm deep hole (in the shape of the CPU IHS) so the HS will actually cover the sides of the IHS a bit.

Also, anyone have recommendations on what cooler to use? I'm sure my current one will work but if I am goign to do this right I wanna see how far I can drop these temps. With a simple lap job and some diamond-based thermal paste versus AS5, I've gotten my FSB up about 6 clicks, which put me @2.99 Ghz on the CPU and 499MHz on the RAM. I know the RAM can go up to roughly 530 before becoming unstable, so I want to make sure I can get the best solder and HS available so I can keep my CPU from being he bottleneck. Here's some stuff I've been looking at. Anyone of these seem lke a great choice, or does someone else have a better option? I do prefer the ones that have the copper pipes where they will touch the CPU, and would like the base to be as small as possible in order to avoid conflict wih the lever that locks the CPU in place. Also, 4-pin fan connector. Anywho...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835202005

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835887016

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2E16835185046R

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835106075

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835154002

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835202004

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835233014

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835202007

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835101010

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835101022

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835101017


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## DiHydrogenMonOxide

Bumb for an idea I want to see happen.


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## *_*

i wana c this happen

hope it all goes well


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## sLowEnd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michinmuri* 
One thought of mine was to actually use some sort of drill (possibly have some enigineeer-type person to use a CNC machine) to groove out about a 1mm deep hole (in the shape of the CPU IHS) so the HS will actually cover the sides of the IHS a bit.

Also, anyone have recommendations on what cooler to use? I'm sure my current one will work but if I am goign to do this right I wanna see how far I can drop these temps. With a simple lap job and some diamond-based thermal paste versus AS5, I've gotten my FSB up about 6 clicks, which put me @2.99 Ghz on the CPU and 499MHz on the RAM. I know the RAM can go up to roughly 530 before becoming unstable, so I want to make sure I can get the best solder and HS available so I can keep my CPU from being he bottleneck. Here's some stuff I've been looking at. Anyone of these seem lke a great choice, or does someone else have a better option? I do prefer the ones that have the copper pipes where they will touch the CPU, and would like the base to be as small as possible in order to avoid conflict wih the lever that locks the CPU in place. Also, 4-pin fan connector. Anywho...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835202005

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835887016

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2E16835185046R

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835106075

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835154002

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835202004

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835233014

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835202007

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835101010

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835101022

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835101017

None of them

Get this

http://www.petrastechshop.com/thulhecpucos.html


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## Deegan

would you just get better temps from lapping the chip and hs perfectly flat? i did and i dont use any thermal paste and i get great temps that way.


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## Goolash

How about this: remove the IHS, using a heat gun if it was soldered on (imbed the pins in something that won't melt, so the pins won't desolder and fall off, also be careful not to bump it, or you will spend some time re-soldering the capacitor banks around the cpu itself), then give the heatsink and the CPU to someone who has access to a solder reflow oven (such as myself), along with the purest silver solder paste you can find, and they can sandwich a very fine layer of the solder paste between the CPU and the heatsink base, rub it around, etc, to work the solder paste into the imperfections, just like you would with thermal paste, and run it through the reflow oven. Voila, your fancy heatsink is now your IHS, too, and the capacitors, which filter the power supply to the CPU will now be open to air, which will keep them cooler when you're overvolting the bejeezers outta the poor thing. Better yet, while you have everything apart, look up the part number printed on the top of the capacitor banks, find the spec sheet, and order replacements with a higher voltage tolerance.

Come to think of it, if the stock IHS is already soldered to the CPU, it probably would be rather tricky. CPUs are connected to their circuit board using little balls all along the underside of the chip, meaning the slightest bump during removal of the IHS could create solder shorts all over the place. And if that happens, well, some few of us (the same ones with access to a reflow oven, probably), could possibly remove it and try to clean off all the solder, then reapply solder paste to each of the hundreds of tiny little solder pads, and then, -maybe- manage to realign the chip by hand before running it through the oven, but I imagine it would be pretty tough to do by hand. The solder paste they apply at the factory is probably microns thick, and applied by robots in a hermetically sealed room, or some such.


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## DiHydrogenMonOxide

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Goolash* 
How about this: remove the IHS, using a heat gun if it was soldered on (imbed the pins in something that won't melt, so the pins won't desolder and fall off, also be careful not to bump it, or you will spend some time re-soldering the capacitor banks around the cpu itself), then give the heatsink and the CPU to someone who has access to a solder reflow oven (such as myself), along with the purest silver solder paste you can find, and they can sandwich a very fine layer of the solder paste between the CPU and the heatsink base, rub it around, etc, to work the solder paste into the imperfections, just like you would with thermal paste, and run it through the reflow oven. Voila, your fancy heatsink is now your IHS, too, and the capacitors, which filter the power supply to the CPU will now be open to air, which will keep them cooler when you're overvolting the bejeezers outta the poor thing. Better yet, while you have everything apart, look up the part number printed on the top of the capacitor banks, find the spec sheet, and order replacements with a higher voltage tolerance.

Come to think of it, if the stock IHS is already soldered to the CPU, it probably would be rather tricky. CPUs are connected to their circuit board using little balls all along the underside of the chip, meaning the slightest bump during removal of the IHS could create solder shorts all over the place. And if that happens, well, some few of us (the same ones with access to a reflow oven, probably), could possibly remove it and try to clean off all the solder, then reapply solder paste to each of the hundreds of tiny little solder pads, and then, -maybe- manage to realign the chip by hand before running it through the oven, but I imagine it would be pretty tough to do by hand. The solder paste they apply at the factory is probably microns thick, and applied by robots in a hermetically sealed room, or some such.

...Wow. How long did you think of this?
JK, sounds like a lot of time and effort but would be PURE ACTION.


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## bk8509a

I'm too lazy to backread, but I thought this would interest all of you. If you've ever tried to solder two flat surfaces metal together, IE a CPU Heat Spreader and a Heat Sink, it will not stick. Solder does not "weld" things together. It likes for wires to be put in it so that I can COOL while they're in there, and then the wires are now connected. It will just slide off of smooth surfaces, that's one of the best parts. If it falls on the table by mistake mom wont flip out because you can litteraly just push it off. IMHO, soldering to flat surfaces is out of the question without intense surface prep. Try Welding, but that's too hot.


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## Skullzaflare

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
This is a terrible idea. In theory, it would work. In practice... it would be much to easy to apply too much heat and kill the CPU. Keep in mind, the die is attached to the substrate via solder. I can't believe nobody has tossed up the most obvious solution here... Coollaboratory Liquid Pro.

And yes, it works and it works well. In fact, it is the best performing TIM you can get today. Just don't use it on aluminum.

it stains copper as well

also to all the research ive done its NOT the best, but close


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## simoxiii

the funny thing is that it might actually work. but i would never do it.


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## michinmuri

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Goolash* 
How about this: remove the IHS, using a heat gun if it was soldered on (imbed the pins in something that won't melt, so the pins won't desolder and fall off, also be careful not to bump it, or you will spend some time re-soldering the capacitor banks around the cpu itself), then give the heatsink and the CPU to someone who has access to a solder reflow oven (such as myself), along with the purest silver solder paste you can find, and they can sandwich a very fine layer of the solder paste between the CPU and the heatsink base, rub it around, etc, to work the solder paste into the imperfections, just like you would with thermal paste, and run it through the reflow oven. Voila, your fancy heatsink is now your IHS, too, and the capacitors, which filter the power supply to the CPU will now be open to air, which will keep them cooler when you're overvolting the bejeezers outta the poor thing. Better yet, while you have everything apart, look up the part number printed on the top of the capacitor banks, find the spec sheet, and order replacements with a higher voltage tolerance.

Come to think of it, if the stock IHS is already soldered to the CPU, it probably would be rather tricky. CPUs are connected to their circuit board using little balls all along the underside of the chip, meaning the slightest bump during removal of the IHS could create solder shorts all over the place. And if that happens, well, some few of us (the same ones with access to a reflow oven, probably), could possibly remove it and try to clean off all the solder, then reapply solder paste to each of the hundreds of tiny little solder pads, and then, -maybe- manage to realign the chip by hand before running it through the oven, but I imagine it would be pretty tough to do by hand. The solder paste they apply at the factory is probably microns thick, and applied by robots in a hermetically sealed room, or some such.

Sounds interesting. One day I'll get to this. My taxes are going to help me pay off about 4-5 credit cards, so spare change is in the horizon.


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## Zoki318

I don't see this working. I would say instead of soldering the HSF onto the CPU try to get pure silver or gold foil and place in between the 2. I can't imagine that a small piece of foil (silver or gold) can be that expensive. Just cut it to size.


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## DuckieHo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Zoki318*


I don't see this working. I would say instead of soldering the HSF onto the CPU try to get pure silver or gold foil and place in between the 2. I can't imagine that a small piece of foil (silver or gold) can be that expensive. Just cut it to size.


A piece of foil will not conform to fill the microscopic gaps.


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## minion71

Well

there is a trick to redo solder in badly solder board and you use the over its a control environment an you can set the temperature you need

this trick use a oven at 385 degree to melt solder put it in the over you cpu should not suffer from heat shock and when the solder have melted just close the oven and wait for it to cold down

im not sure if a heat tube will support the prosses

i guess you can sandwich between cpu and the heatsink some solder


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## Sinlok

You'll have to try it with the CPU mounted. I don't know of a heatsink that doesn't cover the rentention latch.


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## andrews2547

if you are going to do this then make a video of you doing it and getting it to work then paste a link once you have uploaded it to youtube or what ever video sharing site you prefer to use


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## hazarada

assuming you are going to wreck any chance of warranty and put your cpu in high risk anyway - why not pop off the ihs all together, all it really does is add insulation. from there you could go nuts and do something like build a real IHS.

hollow out a cpu sized small copper block so it looks like a really short box
cast a plastic plate on the cpu covering the now exposed side except the dye and the copper box upside down along with it so the insides is airtight
make a tiny hole, drop in a tiny bit of water (just enough for the vapor to fill the insides) and take it to a boil, when there is no liquid left solder the hole shut and you are now in posession of the first ever heatpipe/ihs hybrid!


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## Glancey

3 year old thread guys. Don't hold your breath.


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## Ishinomori

Talk about thread necro-ing... hope you guys aren't after a reply!


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## trailer park boy

make your heatsink red hot make a small coil of silver soldier on top of cpu press red hot heatsink down on cpu should work in theory. i repeat theory! good luck


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## AddictedGamer93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *trailer park boy*


make your heatsink red hot make a small coil of silver soldier on top of cpu press red hot heatsink down on cpu should work in theory. i repeat theory! good luck


A 1000 degrees probably isnt so healthy for the cpu....


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## Glancey

OP clearly isn't going to do this, or if he has already.. he obviously isn't going to post how much of a catastrophic failure it was.. it's been like 3 years since the thread started. Move along.


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## CircuitFreak

I know it's a dead horse but the best way IMHO would probably be to fully lap the CPU and heat sink base with full copper exposed and get surface mount PCB solder that has the flux built into it spread on the CPU and HS and bake it together. Good luck ever getting it back off though. Someone has to be crazy enough to try this.


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## inVain

so, does the cpu dead already?


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## davidjones25

Computer chips traditionally run between 20C and 100C, solder wont melt at such cool temperatures. It takes a few hundred degrees to get solder to liquify.


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## trev179

Ahhh its 3 years old he obviously got in over his head


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## subliminally incorrect

THHREEEAAAADDD NECRO!!!

well it is october...


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