# Anyone else think touch screens kind of suck?



## Prophet4NO1

WARNING - RAMBLING RANT THAT IS MOSTLY MEANINGLESS INCOMING - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

I am 38 at this point. Grew up in the 80's and 90's. Watched all the modern tech get better and better over time. Except in one area. The human interface. And this is pretty much across the board as touch screens take more and more of the human interface space. 

Part of the problem is the focus on screens being pretty. This leaves simple controls buried in menus. Stuff that should be a single button/knob. Tesla is a prime example in my opinion. I have driven a few Tesla cars over the years. Aside from the original Roadster, they controls sucked. EVERYTHING is in a menu someplace. And it is not just Tesla. Most of the car makers are moving that direction. I would much rather have some sort of mix like we see in some cars now. My wife's Mazda CX5 is decent. The screen has a BMW like knob/joystick and touch controls. The knob thing works far better when driving if you need to dig through screens. You do not even need to look. You can feel your way. Just like normal buttons. Everything that is used on a normal or semi normal basis is still a button or knob. Even the US Air Force had to learn this the hard way with the touch screens in the F-35. They are looking to go back to older style MFD displays and button/switch panels. Short reason, touch sucks in a fight. 

Moving away from cars, lets talk about phones and other small devices. I am over touch phones. At least full touch. I miss my old Palm with a real keyboard. I would love a Note sized device with a keyboard instead of a full screen. Or maybe bring back the slide out keyboards. Something. Typing on a screen is terrible. There is no real sense of feel. Haptic feedback only tells you that you hit a button on the screen. But you have no way to feel your way to the home row with your thumbs. I have been seeing more and more professional testers and equipment with touch screens as well. Same sorts of issues as with cars. What may have been a simple surface control adjustment on an older version of the tool, not needs a couple menu screens to get to. Or it is on the screen already but will not register touch with gloves on or if fingers are wet. Great for outdoor work... 

And lets bring it back to the more visceral side of things. To me the actual use of touch screens is a very lifeless experience. Modern AV racks no longer are filled with buttons and sliders. At least not like they used to be. All of that, in my eye, looks way cooler than a modern stack of flat boxes that might have a couple screens. Manipulating physical switches and buttons feels better than a touch screen as well. Haptic feedback is better, to an extent, than nothing. But a solid well built toggle switch feels much nicer. 




I know this was a bit of a rambling mess. I think I got most of my point across. Basically I have been getting more and more annoy with touch interfaces for everything. And how most suck. And I just want my buttons back. But, I guess this is just me getting old and crochety.


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## Fluxmaven

I pretty much agree with all these ramblings. I used to be big in car audio and spent a ton of money on my first double din touch screen. All my friends were impressed, but I hated having to look at the damn thing because it didn't have physical buttons for everything. I also miss the keyboard on my blackberry.


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## Paradigm Shifter

Yes, you've pretty much summed up my issues with modern interfaces in general.


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## rluker5

I see the same thing with tv remote interfaces. Here's the remotes for my pc and living room TV's:








First 2 are from my 2014 Panasonic 58" 4k. The smaller one has a quality taptic pad, point mouse trigger on back, voice control, and is nothing but a teched up menu dump. If you want to fish around what may be the best tv options menu ever made this remote is for you. If you just want to push 1 button to get what you want you have to use the big one. I keep the small one in a drawer. At least Panasonic gave me both.
Samsung just gave me the little remote with my 65" QLED 4k. It too is a menu dump control. Except the Samsung menu is slower and much more limited and harder to navigate than the list oriented Panasonic menu. I still had the big one from my short throw Samsung DLP that died in 2009 since it worked with the Samsung plasma I replaced it with that died in 2019. The big one still has VCR controls, but has compatibility with all common features and skips through all menus to do what you want with the right button press. The little Samsung also sits in a drawer.

I like touchscreens when there is no other reasonable option for input due to form factor, but menu skipping buttons are faster, easier and better for tasks done enough to memorize them.


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## Cakewalk_S

I'll throw in my 2 cents here:
1) Tactile buttons/switches/dials are going away, why? It costs more to make/design/engineer/produce/repair... Think of the unlimited possibilities of where you can create buttons on a screen to be...literally anywhere on the entire screen. There's no limit to what button size/shape you want on a screen. If you go physical switch, you not only have to create the wires/interface for that specific switch but you also need to create a housing for it and there's no unlimited possibilities for that switch. 
2) I like the joystick/scroll wheel of the Tesla Model 3/Y. They have a single scroll wheel that can interface a number of things on a screen. Yes you do have to peel your eyes away from the road to look at the screen when you use it but at least it gives you that physical feedback you're looking for. 
3) I wonder if a soft touch screen would be something your looking for? A material that is smooth and without wrinkles but also can depress upon touching...Would that be the feedback you're looking for? 
Not sure if you're aware but Canon just released the R3 camera and I believe it comes with Eye focus tracking in the EVF (Electronic view finder)...there's a tiny camera that tracks your eye movement and it picks up on where you're looking in the screen to create the focus point. I think that's going to be the next huge interface leap...Phones already have front facing cameras, they just need the software for eye tracking and boom, there's a new interface that you won't even need to touch the screen anymore...not sure how you'll press a button vs panning on the screen with your eye but someone will figure it out. Pretty cool tech IMO...


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## rluker5

Cakewalk_S said:


> I'll throw in my 2 cents here:
> 1) Tactile buttons/switches/dials are going away, why? It costs more to make/design/engineer/produce/repair... Think of the unlimited possibilities of where you can create buttons on a screen to be...literally anywhere on the entire screen. There's no limit to what button size/shape you want on a screen. If you go physical switch, you not only have to create the wires/interface for that specific switch but you also need to create a housing for it and there's no unlimited possibilities for that switch.
> 2) I like the joystick/scroll wheel of the Tesla Model 3/Y. They have a single scroll wheel that can interface a number of things on a screen. Yes you do have to peel your eyes away from the road to look at the screen when you use it but at least it gives you that physical feedback you're looking for.
> 3) I wonder if a soft touch screen would be something your looking for? A material that is smooth and without wrinkles but also can depress upon touching...Would that be the feedback you're looking for?
> Not sure if you're aware but Canon just released the R3 camera and I believe it comes with Eye focus tracking in the EVF (Electronic view finder)...there's a tiny camera that tracks your eye movement and it picks up on where you're looking in the screen to create the focus point. I think that's going to be the next huge interface leap...Phones already have front facing cameras, they just need the software for eye tracking and boom, there's a new interface that you won't even need to touch the screen anymore...not sure how you'll press a button vs panning on the screen with your eye but someone will figure it out. Pretty cool tech IMO...


I don't think the cost difference is significant for anything that costs more than a couple hundred dollars.
Instant access buttons are just more convenient than menu fishing.
In more expensive devices like a Tesla, menu programmable buttons with small integrated displays that reflect your selection would still be better.
Imagine your wife starts your car and she would rather have phone quick access buttons, so she has them. You start the car and you have cruise control and broadcast radio buttons, as an example.
One touch, one action, no looking, thinking, working, just minimal effort to achieve desired results. 

If a new interface makes me work more, wait more, search more to get the same thing done as the older interface then it is not as good. Even if the old interface isn't as trendy.


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## Prophet4NO1

rluker5 said:


> I don't think the cost difference is significant for anything that costs more than a couple hundred dollars.
> Instant access buttons are just more convenient than menu fishing.
> In more expensive devices like a Tesla, menu programmable buttons with small integrated displays that reflect your selection would still be better.
> Imagine your wife starts your car and she would rather have phone quick access buttons, so she has them. You start the car and you have cruise control and broadcast radio buttons, as an example.
> One touch, one action, no looking, thinking, working, just minimal effort to achieve desired results.
> 
> If a new interface makes me work more, wait more, search more to get the same thing done as the older interface then it is not as good. Even if the old interface isn't as trendy.



Pretty much this. Moving things more and more onto a screen has made things slow and clunky. I do not care that you can put the button anywhere. I care about functionality. Hell, a decent multimeter has more functionality in one dial than just about any touch screen based device has. Ever use a multimeter with a couple multi function buttons to control it rather than a dial. It is terrible. Touch would not make that better. You would just move the multi function buttons to the screen. Now, a few multi function buttons AND the dial, amazing! Just about any possible function is a second or two away. No menus needed. 

As for cost, buttons are cheap. Most good micro switches and buttons are a few cents each. And the price dives when you order in bulk. Like buying resistors. Piles of them for a few bucks.


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## warpuck

I prefer operating the radio in the 2004 T-blazer. To the radio in the 2016 Trax I also have. Never knew that I need a off button on the steering wheel. Just reach over and feel it.
I got married in 2003 and found out I needed a automatic and 4 doors. That is why I ended up the T-blazer. Then she ragged on me to get rid of the stick shift pick-up.

I am not saying women are the reason. BUT when the army started putting females behind the steering column of standard shifting vehicles. They got tore up too quick.
Women do find a way to accidently break things they don't like.
I guess easy to fix had to go. Also electronics do have a much shorter in use life and storage life vs metal and real switches.


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## GanjaSMK

OP is psychic.


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## Prophet4NO1

warpuck said:


> I prefer operating the radio in the 2004 T-blazer. To the radio in the 2016 Trax I also have. Never knew that I need a off button on the steering wheel. Just reach over and feel it.
> I got married in 2003 and found out I needed a automatic and 4 doors. That is why I ended up the T-blazer. Then she ragged on me to get rid of the stick shift pick-up.
> 
> I am not saying women are the reason. BUT when the army started putting females behind the steering column of standard shifting vehicles. They got tore up too quick.
> Women do find a way to accidently break things they don't like.
> I guess easy to fix had to go. Also electronics do have a much shorter in use life and storage life vs metal and real switches.



My wife knows not to get between me and my manual gear boxes. I still have my old 09 RX8 with a six speed. Only I drive it, so no big deal. Wish I could get a newer truck with a manual. Sold my 98 GMC K2500 a couple years ago. Had a 5 speed and drove good until life finally caught up to it.


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## Prophet4NO1

Another bit of tech I hate, automatic plumbing. How many times have you tried to wash your hands in a public restroom to just end up waving your hands around like a crazy person trying to get the water to turn on. Or it turns on, for about a second, then turns off. Or that automatic toilet/urinal that never flushes on it's own so you have to push the button anyway. And as a side not, the hand dryers that are also motion activated but just do nothing. Leaving you there with you hands wet till you say "screw it" and wipe your hands on your pants. 

I actually am happy when I walk into a bathroom and find a normal old fashioned bit of plumbing and paper towels. Or even those rolling cloth towels. At least everything is likely to work. In a "modern" restroom you it is a dice roll. It is very annoying and pointless tech that really has no need to exist.


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## Paradigm Shifter

Prophet4NO1 said:


> Another bit of tech I hate, automatic plumbing. How many times have you tried to wash your hands in a public restroom to just end up waving your hands around like a crazy person trying to get the water to turn on. Or it turns on, for about a second, then turns off. Or that automatic toilet/urinal that never flushes on it's own so you have to push the button anyway. And as a side not, the hand dryers that are also motion activated but just do nothing. Leaving you there with you hands wet till you say "screw it" and wipe your hands on your pants.
> 
> I actually am happy when I walk into a bathroom and find a normal old fashioned bit of plumbing and paper towels. Or even those rolling cloth towels. At least everything is likely to work. In a "modern" restroom you it is a dice roll. It is very annoying and pointless tech that really has no need to exist.


It's like you're reading my mind... 

The only place I've used "automatic" taps which actually worked reasonably well is here in Japan. And to be honest I think they only reason they work is because they're insanely sensitive - they seem to turn on if you get your hands vaguely near the sink bowl. Reduces frustration, but probably wastes water. That said, they turn off very quickly, which can be frustrating.


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## ciarlatano

Prophet4NO1 said:


> Another bit of tech I hate, automatic plumbing. How many times have you tried to wash your hands in a public restroom to just end up waving your hands around like a crazy person trying to get the water to turn on. Or it turns on, for about a second, then turns off. Or that automatic toilet/urinal that never flushes on it's own so you have to push the button anyway. And as a side not, the hand dryers that are also motion activated but just do nothing. Leaving you there with you hands wet till you say "screw it" and wipe your hands on your pants.
> 
> I actually am happy when I walk into a bathroom and find a normal old fashioned bit of plumbing and paper towels. Or even those rolling cloth towels. At least everything is likely to work. In a "modern" restroom you it is a dice roll. It is very annoying and pointless tech that really has no need to exist.


I lived in the Netherlands from 96-99, and all of the plumbing was automatic in public spaces. And it all worked. But, somehow the US can't get it working twenty years later.......


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## Prophet4NO1

ciarlatano said:


> I lived in the Netherlands from 96-99, and all of the plumbing was automatic in public spaces. And it all worked. But, somehow the US can't get it working twenty years later.......



Only made it to Europe once. I was on the Mediterranean coast the whole time. Pretty much everything I came across was manual with the two button flush setups. Did not see to many automatics, even on sinks. Maybe it is a regional thing?


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## kiriakos

In my world, industry of electrical test and measurement, thought as great idea to use touch screens at oscilloscopes.
The long story in short, as products reviewer I did discover two major faults.
a) touch screens can *not *offer the necessary precision (finger movement steps) so the oscilloscope trigger this to be adjusted by precision. 
b) touch screens using electrical frequency, about receiving feedback due fingers movement (for simplicity I will mention as example the150Hz) , if there is a nearby source operating at that frequency and it is a high power one, then touch screen gets tampered and this event turn it to useless.

As closure I will say that touch screens they should be forbiten to be used at products that their work this is critical, as is oscilloscopes and or medical equipment.


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## Prophet4NO1

kiriakos said:


> In my world, industry of electrical test and measurement, thought as great idea to use touch screens at oscilloscopes.
> The long story in short, as products reviewer I did discover two major faults.
> a) touch screens can *not *offer the necessary precision (finger movement steps) so the oscilloscope trigger this to be adjusted by precision.
> b) touch screens using electrical frequency, about receiving feedback due fingers movement (for simplicity I will mention as example the150Hz) , if there is a nearby source operating at that frequency and it is a high power one, then touch screen gets tampered and this event turn it to useless.
> 
> As closure I will say that touch screens they should be forbiten to be used at products that their work this is critical, as is oscilloscopes and or medical equipment.



I can see that being a real issue. In the past I had to run man baskets for my job. Oil field mainly. One of the brands of lifts used toggle switches and a rotary speed control. All the rest used joysticks. At least from the ones I used. By far my favorite was the switch and dial one. That dial gave super fine control when running the lift. It was so nice.


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## kiriakos

Prophet4NO1 said:


> That dial gave super fine control when running the lift. It was so nice.


An Oscilloscope dial, will offer 20 steps of adjustment per a full rotation.
Touch screens even when used with a pen, the text will be full of judged lines.. (poor feedback rate)
Joysticks can not work alone, they need electronics so them to compensate for *normal* and or* fine* control.
Joysticks quality at military applications this is by far superior, but here comes and another factor, of how much more training this is required from the human side.


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## kiriakos

Prophet4NO1 said:


> Only made it to Europe once. I was on the Mediterranean coast the whole time. Pretty much everything I came across was manual with the two button flush setups. Did not see to many automatics, even on sinks. Maybe it is a regional thing?


Next time get accommodation at a five stars hotel. 
Automation costs are high, maintenance costs are also high.
Japan is a known source of high-end automation, for them automation at public places, its a way to advertise their skills even to tourists.


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## umeng2002

Alex Jones rant: It's not about saving money on buttons and switches. I've never had even the cheapest button fail in my life on anything. It's about control. Software is way more protected by law in terms of control and copyright. It's nearly impossible to modify modern equipment without software control. That places all the power with the manufacturers. You bypass something on an old car, no one cares. You hack the ECU on a modern car to mod something, that's technically a Federal crime. Never mind how bad touch screens are for actually using something. I see the new VW GTI, Audi cars are going to almost all touch screen. You know how hard it is to turn on a modern TV with touch screen controls, now image doing that at 80 mph on the highway. Totally dumb. Tesla gets away with it because electric cars are the new hot thing. If Teslas were just normal cars controlled by an iPad, no one would buy them.


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## Prophet4NO1

kiriakos said:


> Next time get accommodation at a five stars hotel.
> Automation costs are high, maintenance costs are also high.
> Japan is a known source of high-end automation, for them automation at public places, its a way to advertise their skills even to tourists.


I was on a cruise. So, no hotels really. Except for when we stayed a couple nights on each end of the trip in Barcelona. But, we rented an apartment/condo for those couple days.


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