# [TheDrive]Toyota Made Its Key Fob Remote Start Into a Subscription Service



## Rei86

Yeah its been kind of not big news and yet big news in the auto community.
Apparently 2018 Yota's are also effected by this... which makes me want to scream and shout #F***Toyota.


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## Section31

Normal stuff in the car industry. At some point in your car lifespan (couple years) they longer update the software in your car. So your maps and other stuff are no longer updated and even Online related services no longer work. So the online car tracking part no longer active. There's also stuff like sirius radio that you get free for one year then they make you signup for it.

There was whole fuss made about BMW doing it with it iDrive system. However for German and European cars, most don't last as long as Toyota's since around 6-8year (after warranty), issues start popping and many of the repairs just cost more than the car actually worth. So many just buy new one and resell/trade in the old model. 









BMW’s In-Car Subscription Feature Is a No-Good, Terrible Idea - The Manual


Think heated seats are a given? Think again.




www.themanual.com





I am driving and 2017 Audi A4 Allroad and am starting to look at replacements. Planning to supplement it with an extended range EV as main car. Keeping an eye out for Audi extended range models - SUV or ideally an A6 All Road due in next 2-3 years. EV getting too complicated as installing an battery pack/charger on older houses requires additional costs in electrical upgrades/etc for older homes. Still need the A4 for when you need it and dead beater car for when your going to less desirable areas or even driving it to throw out trash.


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## anticommon

Mine and I'm sure many other people's preference would be to get a vehicle that has nothing but the bare essentials when it comes to electronics. Bluetooth? sure. Reverse camera? sure. Remote start? sure. Power windows? Sure. Giant 15" touch screen that will feel like slow crap in 5 years? no thanks. Onstar? no thanks. Maps that will be outdated in 2 years and is harder to use than phone maps? no thanks. Unlock from Saturn (with extra fee to start from any of Saturns moons)? no thanks.


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## Section31

anticommon said:


> Mine and I'm sure many other people's preference would be to get a vehicle that has nothing but the bare essentials when it comes to electronics. Bluetooth? sure. Reverse camera? sure. Remote start? sure. Power windows? Sure. Giant 15" touch screen that will feel like slow crap in 5 years? no thanks. Onstar? no thanks. Maps that will be outdated in 2 years and is harder to use than phone maps? no thanks. Unlock from Saturn (with extra fee to start from any of Saturns moons)? no thanks.


You need to get the 90's - select 00's cars. They have least amount of electronics are actually self-fixable. I got friends who buy 90-00's Toyota and fix them up. Sure they aren't fuel efficient but they are easy to maintain. I also know friends who invest in cheap computers so they can diagnose whats wrong with there cars and then order replacement parts online. These guys have good car tastes though - not any cars but stuff like Chevy SS (ultimate sleeper car) and cars that historically are very popular.


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## Section31

anticommon said:


> Mine and I'm sure many other people's preference would be to get a vehicle that has nothing but the bare essentials when it comes to electronics. Bluetooth? sure. Reverse camera? sure. Remote start? sure. Power windows? Sure. Giant 15" touch screen that will feel like slow crap in 5 years? no thanks. Onstar? no thanks. Maps that will be outdated in 2 years and is harder to use than phone maps? no thanks. Unlock from Saturn (with extra fee to start from any of Saturns moons)? no thanks.


I personally hate Tesla screen though my parents did buy one in Asia because it's really cheap there at the time. Normally the tax there is 100% onward (not including accessories) on top of the us msrp. Tesla are really popular in parts of Asia because of there aggressive pricing that take advantage of government credits. An 20,000usd gas car in US might cost like 60,000usd plus in Asia.


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## iamjanco

EastCoast said:


> Toyota Made Its Key Fob Remote Start Into a Subscription Service
> 
> 
> Subscription-based features are taking over the automotive industry—and now they're coming for your key fob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com


Makes me wonder if Ted K. wasn't wrong about everything.


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## Rei86

This is dumb and I want to let you know BMW tried to do it, Volvo does it now and Toyota's been doing it since 2018.

THINK about it for a moment. WHY does my remote start needs to be connected to 3/4/5G service to remote start? OH because your fat a... wanted to start the car 1 mile away? Great... and if that's the case WHY isn't the door unlock also not pinging a stupid Toyota Server also to unlock the car?
Also what happens when someone is fed up with this and hacks the Toyota servers and none of you are able to open and or start your car with the app/fob?
Guess your SOL, and better get yourself a slimjim to open that door.
So what happens when you still own this car with 5G connection and once 5G is dropped for 7/8G etc, you think Toyota is gonna upgrade your wireless module for free because you're playing a sub? LOL

And when the car is about four years old (avg American car warranties on the low end ends in 3 years) and I'm paying a sub for this garbage vehicle to use my heat warmer and cooler.
Garbage stops working.
Who is going to fix it? Me?
Why?
I'm paying a sub for that sheet, and won't let me use it even when the hardware heating elements are IN the seats and not something a stupid a... Toyota engineer needs to come out and put in heating elements into my seat every time I turn it on.
So again when the car starts to break down and you're still paying a sub for feature, WHO is gonna fix it?
YOU the owner? Because YES of course you're gonna be paying for it because you "own" the car.

And don't bring in software subscription and things like Netflix etc. Netflix has to add value to their platform to keep you subbed to their service.
Your garbage BMW 440i is gonna be the same the day you bought and the day it goes into the crusher (modding doesn't count, that's money out of YOUR pocket).

Things like this brings my blood to a boil and thinking about makes me want to fly to German and beat up two ****er German siblings and Fly to Japan and swift kick in the balls to Akio and all his male lineage till their unable to have children.

I thought FCA was the only ******s in the automotive world when it comes to implanting dumb tech ideas, this takes it.


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## Section31

Rei86 said:


> This is dumb and I want to let you know BMW tried to do it, Volvo does it now and Toyota's been doing it since 2018.
> 
> THINK about it for a moment. WHY does my remote start needs to be connected to 3/4/5G service to remote start? OH because your fat a... wanted to start the car 1 mile away? Great... and if that's the case WHY isn't the door unlock also not pinging a stupid Toyota Server also to unlock the car?
> So what happens when you still own this car with 5G connection and once 5G is dropped for 7/8G etc, you think Toyota is gonna upgrade your wireless module? LOL
> 
> And when the car is about four years old (avg American car warranties on the low end ends in 3 years) and I'm paying a sub for this garbage vehicle to use my heat warmer and cooler.
> Garbage stops working.
> Who is going to fix it? Me?
> Why?
> I'm paying a sub for that sheet, and won't let me use it even when the hardware heating elements are IN the seats and not something a stupid a... Toyota engineer needs to come out and put in heating elements into my seat every time I turn it on.
> So again when the car starts to break down and you're still paying a sub for feature, WHO is gonna fix it?
> YOU the owner? Because YES of course you're gonna be paying for it because you "own" the car.
> 
> And don't bring in software subscription and things like Netflix etc. Netflix has to add value to their platform to keep you subbed to their service.
> Your garbage BMW 440i is gonna be the same the day you bought and the day it goes into the crusher (modding doesn't count, that's money out of YOUR pocket).
> 
> Things like this brings my blood to a boil and thinking about makes me want to fly to German and beat up two ****er German siblings and Fly to Japan and swift kick in the balls to Akio and all his male lineage till their unable to have children.
> 
> I thought FCA was the only ******s in the automotive world when it comes to implanting dumb tech ideas, this takes it.


That's why people are buying/collecting 90's - early 00's cars. They don't rely on the computer much and if so easy to replace. The new features are convivence more so, i love 360 parking camera but you still got to learn how to park the old fashioned way. That and some of them are still the nice old engines non-Turbo V6-V12. Just matter of buying the right old car as the good ones aren't cheap. The good ones resell for good prices on car auctions and will continue to do so.

That and don't buy luxury cars. Outside of the couple million dollar ones, they just lose money so fast. All those 100-200K cars will lose at least 50% and up to 80% of its value within 5-6years. The used Toyota, Honda have amazing resale value at least. My parents still have one the early 2005's V8 natural engine SLK55 AMG. I think one of the last Mercedes products that partnered up with Mclaren. Car does have that old plastic smell and transmission is bit antsy at time but everything works and is still one of the nicest sounding car engines out there.


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## UltraMega

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the fuss. To me it sounds like you lose the ability to start your car from your phone, and some other audio streaming services. 

It's easy enough to replace the computer in most cars with a good android device instead. I have a Corolla S 2014 and that's what I did with mine. You can find a lot of replacement android devices even for cars that don't have a standard radio mount. Mine was about $300. Granted that won't get you the ability to start the car from a phone but given the fact that these cars have remote FOBs anyway, that seems like a minor issue. 

In truth the one I got is a little buggy, probably should have shopped around a little more, but I would definitely do it again if I had some issues with the built-in computer.


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## anticommon

It just occurred to me that we (most poor people) have no right to be angry about this kind of stuff. The bank owns the vehicle for the duration of most of these subscription services, so I doubt many people fall nicely in the bosom of the ven-diagram depicting both people who own the title of their car and the car having free subscription services. In reality I'm not sure why the bank isn't charging us from the get-go to freeload off the services each auto manufacturer provides! Us poors don't deserve the luxuries of modern technology and things like 'car starters'. If we owned the titles I'd imagine we could just pay some peasant to start the car for us! maybe even drive us around...

/s


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## Rei86

UltraMega said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the fuss. To me it sounds like you lose the ability to start your car from your phone, and some other audio streaming services.
> 
> It's easy enough to replace the computer in most cars with a good android device instead. I have a Corolla S 2014 and that's what I did with mine. You can find a lot of replacement android devices even for cars that don't have a standard radio mount. Mine was about $300. Granted that won't get you the ability to start the car from a phone but given the fact that these cars have remote FOBs anyway, that seems like a minor issue.
> 
> In truth the one I got is a little buggy, probably should have shopped around a little more, but I would definitely do it again if I had some issues with the built-in computer.


You lose the ability to use your heat warmer and cooler, steering wheel heater, all audio streaming (which I could give two ****s about, just install a dumb head unit with apple carplay/android auto, because you know.. you suck at programing. Every car UI is crap, has been crap, and is slow and bloated).

Jalop, reddit, the drive and other forums have put out all the crap features they want to tie into the subscription service and ones that are already part of it. 

Its intrusive as **** and dumb. 
I hope DEF CON conventions will have some members showing off ways to disable the connection to companies and still have the ability to use the features.


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## Rei86

Section31 said:


> That's why people are buying/collecting 90's - early 00's cars. They don't rely on the computer much and if so easy to replace. The new features are convivence more so, i love 360 parking camera but you still got to learn how to park the old fashioned way. That and some of them are still the nice old engines non-Turbo V6-V12. Just matter of buying the right old car as the good ones aren't cheap. The good ones resell for good prices on car auctions and will continue to do so.
> 
> That and don't buy luxury cars. Outside of the couple million dollar ones, they just lose money so fast. All those 100-200K cars will lose at least 50% and up to 80% of its value within 5-6years. The used Toyota, Honda have amazing resale value at least. My parents still have one the early 2005's V8 natural engine SLK55 AMG. I think one of the last Mercedes products that partnered up with Mclaren. Car does have that old plastic smell and transmission is bit antsy at time but everything works and is still one of the nicest sounding car engines out there.


That would actually be the SLR, and that thing is a POS junk on service standpoint. 
Can't even lift the dumb thing without shattering all the glass (Yes they made a special lift that you have to use if you want to jack up that thing and do any work under the thing, unless you want to jack it up and bust all your windows.. and good luck finding replacement windows for that thing).
I'm a McLaren F1 dude, and if had 20-30 million blow one of thos would be in my garage. But still doesn't change the fact that it has dumb service intervals like all high end sports/super/hyper cars. And even the newer McLaren's are all junk to service, and is the reason why they all drop like stones in resale value. 

And yeah I'm a car dude before computers, and the newest vehicle I own is from 2011, the other two are from 1993 and one of them is a Toyota.
Probably picking up a older Lexus GX470 as a overlander project along with a Z06 (C6 or C5) to turn into a track toy next year.


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## UltraMega

Rei86 said:


> You lose the ability to use your heat warmer and cooler, steering wheel heater,


Do you mean seat warmer? You can't use the seat warmer at all? I find that hard to believe. You just can't turn it on before you get in the car, right?

I would think most people just connect their phone to their car via bluetooth and just steam through their phone anyway so IDK why anyone would really care about the built in audio streaming options when using your phone instead is such a simple alternative.


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## Rei86

UltraMega said:


> Do you mean seat warmer? You can't use the seat warmer at all? I find that hard to believe. You just can't turn it on before you get in the car, right?
> 
> I would think most people just connect their phone to their car via bluetooth and just steam through their phone anyway so IDK why anyone would really care about the built in audio streaming options when using your phone instead is such a simple alternative.


yes seat warmer and cooling is gonna be tied to a subscription in the future.
and again it isn't just Toyota that's doing this/implementing them in their future models.

As for streaming... I mean I guess its my state. But you have no idea how many dipshits buy cars that has handsfree Bluetooth connection and they still hold their phones up their head and refuse to connect to the car when making a call. 
I've met tons of people who just enjoys having Pandora/Spotify right on their head unit vs connecting a phone by wire/wireless, and says its super convenient that they even have the ability to listen to their app that way. 

Tesla as we know has been doing this BS for sometime now. If you buy one second hand with "auto pilot" feature that was already paid for by the previous owner can and will get remotely wiped off your vehicle, since you're not the 1st owner "That paid for said feature."
They'll only give it back if you make enough fuss on social media.


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## Section31

Rei86 said:


> yes seat warmer and cooling is gonna be tied to a subscription in the future.
> and again it isn't just Toyota that's doing this/implementing them in their future models.
> 
> As for streaming... I mean I guess its my state. But you have no idea how many dipshits buy cars that has handsfree Bluetooth connection and they still hold their phones up their head and refuse to connect to the car when making a call.
> I've met tons of people who just enjoys having Pandora/Spotify right on their head unit vs connecting a phone by wire/wireless, and says its super convenient that they even have the ability to listen to their app that way.
> 
> Tesla as we know has been doing this BS for sometime now. If you buy one second hand with "auto pilot" feature that was already paid for by the previous owner can and will get remotely wiped off your vehicle, since you're not the 1st owner "That paid for said feature."
> They'll only give it back if you make enough fuss on social media.


Good old Tesla and there remote kill button. I remember elon musks saying he had an remote kill button built in each Tesla. Some people had features unlocked they didn't pay for and Tesla locked them out.

I tried the carplay/google music playing music and I actually just use an SD card and play music off it. Only time i connect the carplay thing is for Google Maps and Making Phone Calls. Most of the time i just go drive and forget to even connect the cable. Any important phone call people will leave message and i can call them back later. I rarely go on long road trip (most of the city i live in doesn't require the use of highways) so even google maps i rarely use.

I have noticed the most usage being people charging there phone because of mobile games like Pokemon Go.


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## UltraMega

Rei86 said:


> yes seat warmer and cooling is gonna be tied to a subscription in the future.
> and again it isn't just Toyota that's doing this/implementing them in their future models.


Are you saying that literally it will be impossible to turn on the seat warmer without a subscription? No manual button? How do people turn them on now, can they only do it via remote? 

Again, very hard to believe. Do you have anything that confirms this specifically?


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## Asmodian

UltraMega said:


> No manual button? How do people turn them on now, can they only do it via remote?


The car updates itself and the manual button no longer works. The car knows the status of the subscription and its computer enables/disables any feature they want. It would be very easy to implement and is easy for me to believe.


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## Section31

UltraMega said:


> Are you saying that literally it will be impossible to turn on the seat warmer without a subscription? No manual button? How do people turn them on now, can they only do it via remote?
> 
> Again, very hard to believe. Do you have anything that confirms this specifically?


Currently cars are moving towards tesla touch screen to control everything(as seen in the prototypes). The number of physical buttons are almost all gone. Each manufacturer designs are just slightly different that all. How long it takes before it hits the entry level, that will be seen but the high end ones are all going this direction.


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## Section31

Asmodian said:


> The car updates itself and the manual button no longer works. The car knows the status of the subscription and its computer enables/disables any feature they want. It would be very easy to implement and is easy for me to believe.


It's going to be bigger issue once the other manufacturer come out with there new EV concept and self driving cars.


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## Paradigm Shifter

It's tricks like this (and it isn't only Toyota) that really put me off new cars.

But then, my "dream" car is a 1930's (or so) classic with a more modern engine and brakes so that it accelerates and breaks more in "tens of yards" rather than "tenths of mile".  

I like technology, but the time really does seem to be coming where I throw up my hands, say "screw it" and swear off electronics and go live with the Amish. Or something.


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## Section31

Paradigm Shifter said:


> It's tricks like this (and it isn't only Toyota) that really put me off new cars.
> 
> But then, my "dream" car is a 1930's (or so) classic with a more modern engine and brakes so that it accelerates and breaks more in "tens of yards" rather than "tenths of mile".
> 
> I like technology, but the time really does seem to be coming where I throw up my hands, say "screw it" and swear off electronics and go live with the Amish. Or something.


Just need something like Jay Leno Private Car Garage and then you can make your updated 1930 car.


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## Rei86

UltraMega said:


> Are you saying that literally it will be impossible to turn on the seat warmer without a subscription? No manual button? How do people turn them on now, can they only do it via remote?
> 
> Again, very hard to believe. Do you have anything that confirms this specifically?


Push the button and nothing happens.
Most of the car is now controlled by computers as we know and implanting this to a car that is connected wirelessly isn't very hard.
Now will you find a work around for this online? Yeah. Will we have people hacking and finding ways out of this? Yes.

We already have people who's been hacking vehicle ECU's for years now with piggyback systems.
If you're a 90s/2000 person you would know about Cobb, APEXi, etc piggy back systems. And for the hardcore nuts out there will just chuck the stock ECU for a standalone aftermarket unit from someone like AEM, Haltech, and MoTeC, for more ability to fine tune.
If crap like this continues I can see people like Cobb making a piggyback system to allow for vehicle features to just work again, but they'll need programmers who can crack the stock ECU programming, and GOOD f'en luck if you're model isn't that popular. You'll have to hope that all these system checks and software are all the same for all models in the single manufactures line up (and seeing how lazy they are, most likely).


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## Paradigm Shifter

Section31 said:


> Just need something like Jay Leno Private Car Garage and then you can make your updated 1930 car.


Yeah. First I need to change careers, 'cause while I love what I do, it ain't gonna make me a millionaire.


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## UltraMega

Asmodian said:


> The car updates itself and the manual button no longer works. The car knows the status of the subscription and its computer enables/disables any feature they want. It would be very easy to implement and is easy for me to believe.


Easy to believe it's doable, sure. However I don't think it's accurate that the seat warmers will literally not work without a subscription and I think the person who said that is probably misinterpreting part of this whole ordeal. 

Beyond losing the ability to start the car and some features like seat warmers from a smart device, and some music streaming options, nothing is being lost. Maybe there will be a day where people have to pay for a subscription service to use the seat warmer in their car, but unless there is a big piece of information I'm missing, that's not what this is.


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## UltraMega

I had to read about this more to make sense of it. I think I get it now and I get why it's so confusing.

Toyota's "Remote Start" is a cellular service that allows the car to be started via cellular service if the fob is within 50 feet via GPS. It allows people to start their car via a cellular connection to get slightly better range when starting their car with the fob. It is not something people need to start their cars with the fob and losing it does not disable any other features that the car could normally do, it only disables the cellular network aspect of the key fob and other cellular network aspects of the car in general.

Using the term "Remote Start" to describe the cellular features of Toyota cars seems to be the source of all the confusion. All the articles about this either don't understand that, or are running it anyway because it sounds so much worse than it is. Essentially, this is clickbait.

Confusing terminology aside, it is perfectly reasonable for a car company to charge a monthly fee for cellular services.


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## EastCoast

NSFW


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## Paradigm Shifter

EastCoast said:


> Louis Rossmann YouTube video
> NSFW


I found Louis Rossmann for his Macbook repair vids (I don't even own a Mac, but was watching some PCB desoldering guides for something else and "the algorithm" suggested them) and stayed for the Right to Repair stuff.


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## geriatricpollywog

Oh so its the extended remote start feature of the key fob that Toyota will charge a subscription for.

Kia will just drop in with 10 years of free cell service to force Toyota to compete. For the first time in forever, Korean cars are becoming sought-after in America.


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## MGX1016

Picked up a Lexus UX right before the chip shortage hit hard. It has this sub service for its remote start. It’s actually super useful and really a great app. It provides remote lock/start, driving score. I don’t really want to pay for it, but having remote start on an app is nifty


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## rluker5

I keep my 2013 Fiesta in the garage. If it is outside, like at work, I have to brush the snow off before starting it anyways so I'm already there. It doesn't have power windows, auto transmission or bluetooth. But it does have a headphone jack in for the audio and a nice pocket in the dash for my phone. If I want to use maps and see it (as opposed to the audio reminder for when you almost know where you are going) my phone sits right in front of my steering wheel. Car is not very fast, but cops ignore it and I get to pass basically every other car on the road without getting a ticket. My last ticket was in the 1990s and I'm one of those traffic weavers (that doesn't tailgate unless I'm about to pass the car in your blindspot). The Volvo wagon I used to have also had this nice feature. Being a manual Fiesta also makes it virtually theft proof. I only lock it if I have good stuff inside. 

I like not having the clutter of redundant electronics that have poor useability. My phone I'm bringing along anyways. My electric garage door opener is my favorite car assigned gadget. I'm totally going to go with some stripped down version of an economy car when my current car wears out in about 2 years (200k). But I will keep my eye out for something like this. Sounds about as appealing as that shut off your engine at a stop light feature. My brother had a 77 Plymouth Fury with that feature. It also had a leaf spring pop open the trunk one day. Was ahead of it's time.

Maybe I'm just jaded because of all of the deer. If you lived in a city where indoor parking were prohibitively expensive, and so crime ridden that you wanted to carry a gun on the way to your car, I could see this subscription being worthwhile.


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## UltraMega

Despite what some news outlets are reporting, as far as I can tell this is only for the cellular service and the RF aspect of the FOB will still work normally.

I seriously doubt a car maker would disable people's ability to start their car via a radio control device to get them to sign up for a subscription. The backlask would be huge and they would definitely get sued, and probably lose. The whole idea that a car company would retroactively disable people's ability to use a radio controlled ignition device without paying a subscription is completely ridiculous to the point that I find it totally unbelievable.


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## ma2k5

Rei86 said:


> This is dumb and I want to let you know BMW tried to do it, Volvo does it now and Toyota's been doing it since 2018.
> 
> THINK about it for a moment. WHY does my remote start needs to be connected to 3/4/5G service to remote start? OH because your fat a... wanted to start the car 1 mile away? Great... and if that's the case WHY isn't the door unlock also not pinging a stupid Toyota Server also to unlock the car?
> Also what happens when someone is fed up with this and hacks the Toyota servers and none of you are able to open and or start your car with the app/fob?
> Guess your SOL, and better get yourself a slimjim to open that door.
> So what happens when you still own this car with 5G connection and once 5G is dropped for 7/8G etc, you think Toyota is gonna upgrade your wireless module for free because you're playing a sub? LOL
> 
> And when the car is about four years old (avg American car warranties on the low end ends in 3 years) and I'm paying a sub for this garbage vehicle to use my heat warmer and cooler.
> Garbage stops working.
> Who is going to fix it? Me?
> Why?
> I'm paying a sub for that sheet, and won't let me use it even when the hardware heating elements are IN the seats and not something a stupid a... Toyota engineer needs to come out and put in heating elements into my seat every time I turn it on.
> So again when the car starts to break down and you're still paying a sub for feature, WHO is gonna fix it?
> YOU the owner? Because YES of course you're gonna be paying for it because you "own" the car.
> 
> And don't bring in software subscription and things like Netflix etc. Netflix has to add value to their platform to keep you subbed to their service.
> Your garbage BMW 440i is gonna be the same the day you bought and the day it goes into the crusher (modding doesn't count, that's money out of YOUR pocket).
> 
> Things like this brings my blood to a boil and thinking about makes me want to fly to German and beat up two ****er German siblings and Fly to Japan and swift kick in the balls to Akio and all his male lineage till their unable to have children.
> 
> I thought FCA was the only ******s in the automotive world when it comes to implanting dumb tech ideas, this takes it.


You are literally a psycho lunatic. Take your meds before posting online. I haven’t posted in god knows how long but the crap you wrote…


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## Rei86

ma2k5 said:


> You are literally a psycho lunatic. Take your meds before posting online. I haven’t posted in god knows how long but the crap you wrote…


I'm not mental, you're just behind.

Western Governments don't want you to own your cars. Hell Brandon wants to talk about taxing US Drivers again for each mileage you drive, even tho that's already factored into tax you pay at the gas pump.

But keep your eyes closed 🐑


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## Revv23

What a load of garbage. 

Charging a subscription for something you already paid for. 

I have a feeling this will get popular across all manufacturers.


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## Milamber

anticommon said:


> It just occurred to me that we (most poor people) have no right to be angry about this kind of stuff. The bank owns the vehicle for the duration of most of these subscription services, so I doubt many people fall nicely in the bosom of the ven-diagram depicting both people who own the title of their car and the car having free subscription services.
> 
> /s


People should be more realistic with their finances and not borrow money to drive a vehicle, if you can't afford it, don't buy it (houses, manors and land excluded) given you can buy a vehicle for under a $1000. Problem is, people are up to their eyes in debt because they keep borrowing and buying stuff they can't afford.


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