# [Razer] Razer Synapse 2.0 Used For Always-On Data Mining



## SammichThyme

Well, I'm definitely not buying a Razer mouse now.


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## MP-Canuck

That is disgusting. Why would you need DRM for Mouse Software?


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## JoshHunter

This is absolutely outrageous..


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## Nugu

<--- This guy is glad he has a Storm Spawn in reserve for when his Death Adder dies.


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## ceteris

Wow... what a shady ass company. First they make a bunch of peripherals with high fail ratios, and then they implement spyware that locks you out of using your gear if you turn it off. I'm glad I listened to the unfavorable reviews on their crap and stirred clear of everything else other than the mouse pad I got as a gift (kind of hard to mess that up lol.)


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## un-midas touch

I recommend the use of this mouse as a self defense weapon.


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## th3l4st0ne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> I recommend the use of this mouse as a self defense weapon.


Nah, it's not made by Nokia.

Only Nokia stuff is good for self defense.

OT: I'm glad I resurected my trackball instead of buying a Deathadder.


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## NoseKi||s

The buttons on my 2+ year old Mamba are starting to break. This will definitely affect my shopping choice in the near future


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## Darkpriest667

They're going to lose a lot of customers over this myself included.. I havent gotten synapse to work properly since it was installed.. my death adder is double clicking (its been a year and i use it heavily a year for am ouse is good for me) and so instead of RMAing it I am just going to flow with it until it dies and replace it with someone else.

Unfortunate because I love the mouse. They mech keyboard is good too Ive had no problems with it but their software is crap.


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## JoshHunter

All we do now is watch Razer lose sales to Steelseries, Roccat and Corsair


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## NITRO1250

Yeah, I thought about Razor maybe as an upgrade alternative, but now I won't even consider them at all. Logitech all the way for me it seems. My MX518 is still kicking and always in use


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## Shaded War

Yeah they used to give you CDs with the drivers on them but now you have to use Synapse 2.0. It can be nice when doing clean installs because it saves your user profiles, but forcing it on people was quite disappointing.

Now they're using it as DRM? Just pathetic. Who is going to "pirate" drivers for a mouse/ keyboard if they can just download it from their website for free. Plus there's no reason for this in the first place. If you don't own a Razer product, why would you need the drivers?


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## Yvese

As a razer naga user, this disturbs me.

On one hand, I'm always connected to the internet so it wasn't an issue. I also loved the convenience of having my profile save on the cloud, thus making it so I don't have to reconfigure all my macros and whatnot whenever I reformat.

But now this... spyware?

Yea, when this mouse finally breaks I'll search for a different brand with as close to the same amount of buttons.


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## Padishah

The new Synapse software has "cloud" support thats why you need to log on to save and load your profiles.

here is a link to the old software no cloud storage and runs standalone

http://www.razersupport.com/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=viewdownload&downloaditemid=744

also my synapse 2.0 software loads fine without and internet connection.


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## phailsauce

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JoshHunter*
> 
> All we do now is watch Razer lose sales to Steelseries, Roccat and Corsair


This.


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## royalkilla408

This is why I sold my Naga and went with SteelSeries.... I don't need to install anything on my Sensei to customize it at all. Razer will never again get my support and will never buy any of their products again.


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## willis888

As if peddling cheaply made, easily broken crap and poor customer service were not enough of a reason to avoid them.

Maybe they're worried people are going to pirate their mice using 3D printers


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## Mootsfox

Yeah, so I was using an Epic a few days at work because the macro buttons automated like 40% of the entries I have to do. The connection is sketchy enough that the software hangs while doing anything. Hangs as in, stops, locks up and takes 10-15 seconds to resume functioning. I don't understand why Razer needs to update the cloud settings in real time... The idea that you need a constant internet connection for a mouse is just crazy. I've stopped using the mouse and don't plan on using it further. It is not worth the trouble. All it proves to me is that Razer is not capable of making good products. I will not be buying Razer products in the future.


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## 05brando

As the owner of 4 Razer products, if this is true i will *NEVER* buy another one.


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## scutzi128

People are so dramatic. This isn't even DRM it is to create profiles that can be saved so that the mouse settings are preserved. I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age? It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


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## Darkpriest667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scutzi128*
> 
> People are so dramatic. This isn't even DRM it is to create profiles that can be saved so that the mouse settings are preserved. I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age? It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


Heh, says someone that doesn't have a Razer product ( a mousepad doesnt count its hard to EFF up a mousepad) and hasn't dealt with the nightmare of Synapse.

I opened razer synapse today to see if I could turn off the blinking mouse light... It does the same thing its done since August. It says updating razer synapse. It's now been on for 15 hours and still says updating.

the software is crap.


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## For_the_moves

^^ Surprised that someone didn't post the "who doesn't have an internet connection" earlier.

Personally, all this fuss for a mouse, no thanks, I'll buy something else. And to think I came this close to buying a mouse and keyboard from them.


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## Kaldari

A company deciding to use a mouse as a means to harvest personal data is beyond crazy. Knowledge of something like this being implemented would go straight to the core of the company or likely even came from it. No Razer hardware for me.. ever.


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## Thingamajig

Always knew there was something dodgey about Razor.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scutzi128*
> 
> *I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age?* It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


Totally, and utterly besides the point.

An internet connection shouldn't be required to use it. In the same sense an internet connection shouldn't be required to play single player exclusive games. It increases the chances that you may not be able to use the product you paid for (example, lose internet. This is especially applicable to Satellite users). And, as already proven, you could also lose access should the authenticating server go offline. Ie: Something not your fault or within your control.

It amazes me how many people like yourself are willing and prepared to surrender to such rediculous restrictions on things you have legally purchased. A very unhealthy attitude - that kind of thing is why so many people have their freedoms and rights stripped away by individuals motivated by one thing; Profit.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Padishah*
> 
> The new Synapse software has "cloud" support thats why you need to log on to save and load your profiles.


I'm sure that would be their excuse. How long will it be before we'll need internet access to simply turn our PC's on?


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## TwilightEscape

I'm curious if this will propagate to other Razer products as well.

The only product I own is a Blackwidow Ultimate and have to say it isn't bad, definitely a step up from the shoddy G15 I used for a long time but if they're going to be pulling crap like this I'll happily trash it for something better.


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## vitality

I have a blackwidow and deathadder and don't even have the razer software installed.


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## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scutzi128*
> 
> People are so dramatic. This isn't even DRM it is to create profiles that can be saved so that the mouse settings are preserved. I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age? It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


Quote:


> User Generated Information" means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.
> 
> *By using Razer Synapse 2.0 ("Synapse"), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.*


You don't see a problem with that? Not being able to use a *mouse* without activation is already a step in the wrong direction, and the fact that a real-time feed is maintained doesn't serve to eradicate suspicions.

Multiple steps in the wrong direction and plenty of competition means they don't get any money from me.


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## Bal3Wolf

I can say for sure im never buying a RAZER product doing this with hardware is just lame uncalled for.


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## Ch13f121

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scutzi128*
> 
> People are so dramatic. This isn't even DRM it is to create profiles that can be saved so that the mouse settings are preserved. I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age? It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


I don't see that as a problem, however I do see it this way.

It's a MOUSE, that requires an INTERNET CONNECTION to function at its maximum capacity (IE I can't use the macro functionality unless the thing can connect to the synapse system).

Does that not seem really stupid to you? I can set up macros all day on my G700, export them to a small USB key and install them on any computer I see fit.
EDIT: You should have a problem with this based on principle. It's not a good idea to make it always online. However cloud based macro storage is actually a great idea. This implementation is really excessive and unnecessary.

I stopped buying Razer products when I got my FREE Mamba 2 years ago. Mouse never worked right with the games I played, and Razer refused to see an issue with the mouse.


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## HowHardCanItBe

Fixed title & formatting


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## HK_47

It seems that razor is afraid of mouse pirates


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## Ch13f121

Delete, I'm old or something I guess...been with this site too long lol.


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## FLCLimax

old title was fine.


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## SlaveOnDope

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vitality*
> 
> I have a blackwidow and deathadder and don't even have the razer software installed.


Best thing you can do







Imperator owner here.


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## Fuell

Wow thats just sad. They are ready to gamble hardware sales on the chance that they can sell your info to people many times over. Just hope they don't get any hardware sales to mine that data from is all...


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## Ch13f121

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vitality*
> 
> I have a blackwidow and deathadder and don't even have the razer software installed.


Pointless info because those two mice are useless for macro'ing.

There's basically no point to the Naga if the software doesn't work without a network connection.

The whole point to the Naga is the ability to macro and customize.


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## Mootsfox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scutzi128*
> 
> People are so dramatic. This isn't even DRM it is to create profiles that can be saved so that the mouse settings are preserved. I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age? It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


Not true.

It requires an internet connection to make any changes to your mouse. Want to change the DPI? Needs a connection. What happens when it's not your fault? Their servers are bad enough already that it will actually lock the program up while making changes. What if a storm knocks out their servers completely, or a fire, or a flood, or a mad employee. What happens at a LAN with no outside access? The idea of needing an internet connection for a MOUSE is crazy. Why does a pointing device need active and stable network access?

Storage of settings on the cloud is a great idea. Requiring you to use the cloud to use the mouse and then selling your personal data is just crazy.


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## Mikemq2003

Well that sucks. Looks like I'm going with Logitech. No logins there.


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## Starbomba

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> As a razer naga user, this disturbs me.
> On one hand, I'm always connected to the internet so it wasn't an issue. I also loved the convenience of having my profile save on the cloud, thus making it so I don't have to reconfigure all my macros and whatnot whenever I reformat.
> But now this... spyware?
> Yea, when this mouse finally breaks I'll search for a different brand with as close to the same amount of buttons.


According to what i've read, i'm of the few which have really gotten the Synapse software fully working and it has been soft as silk. I've been using my DeathAdder for over month, and it is completely awesome, i can say it's the best mouse i've owned. Plus, i like my profiles saved to the cloud (i would've loved a mouse with onboard ROM, but was on a tight budget) and since i have an always-on internet connection it does not bother me.

Spying on me or what i do with the mouse is what angered me. I was thinking on purchasing a Razer mech board, now i would have to seriously think on it.


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## BodenM

If I had the money, I'd set this BWU on fire and go buy a Ducky Shine.


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## Vikhr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Starbomba*
> 
> According to what i've read, i'm of the few which have really gotten the Synapse software fully working and it has been soft as silk. I've been using my DeathAdder for over month, and it is completely awesome, i can say it's the best mouse i've owned. Plus, i like my profiles saved to the cloud (i would've loved a mouse with onboard ROM, but was on a tight budget) and since i have an always-on internet connection it does not bother me.
> Spying on me or what i do with the mouse is what angered me. I was thinking on purchasing a Razer mech board, now i would have to seriously think on it.


Actually the Deathadder has onboard memory, Synapse just doesn't utilize it. You need to use the old legacy drivers which can be found in an archive on Razer's website if you want to be able to use onboard memory and take advantage of a number of different features that aren't included with Synapse, not to mention that the DA tracks worse with Synapse installed.


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## iCrap

Yet another reason why Razer sucks....


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## Onex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scutzi128*
> 
> People are so dramatic. This isn't even DRM it is to create profiles that can be saved so that the mouse settings are preserved. I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age? It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


You are joking please tell me you are joking.


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## SniperTeamTango

I think people need to remember that the software is still in beta. As for Naga owners complaining about it, there was absolutely no need for you to use it, even if there weren't 50,000 ish mirrors for the older drivers, razer still hosts them. However if you used the software and updated it, the firmware version will have been changed and you are in fact now screwed. Also, the data it collects is relevant to the software surely. Its not like they would have keyloggers or something to collect emails passwords and the like, as that'd be illegal, regardless whether its in the TOS it is still an illegal action.

Also just a random fact to whomever said how long till computers need an internet connection to function lol those already exist.


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## SlowPWNY

i have a first gen mamba and i love it...it will also be the LAST razer product i buy. they are idiots if they think people are going to put up with this...who do they think we are?apple users?


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## MrLinky

It never ends, does it? Well, I will never buy a Razer product and I will strongly recommend people away from Razer in the future. Thank you channelx99 for bringing this to our attention.


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## czin125

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Also just a random fact to whomever said how long till computers need an internet connection to function lol those already exist.


where can I find these?


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## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> I think people need to remember that the software is still in beta. As for Naga owners complaining about it, there was absolutely no need for you to use it, even if there weren't 50,000 ish mirrors for the older drivers, razer still hosts them. However if you used the software and updated it, the firmware version will have been changed and you are in fact now screwed. Also, the data it collects is relevant to the software surely. Its not like they would have keyloggers or something to collect emails passwords and the like, as that'd be illegal, regardless whether its in the TOS it is still an illegal action.
> Also just a random fact to whomever said how long till computers need an internet connection to function lol those already exist.


I don't think anyone is accusing them of keyloggers or of selling our account credentials to various sites. But looking at the wording of their agreement, it's pretty safe to say they at the very least collect the websites you visit along with no telling how many other metrics. What music you listen to, what videos you watch, what files you open, what programs you have installed, etc. are all on the table.

A real-time information feed and their TOS give no comfort.


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## Decade

Wow, that is outlandish! Thank goodness I didn't go for a Razer Naga when I was looking at a new mouse a week ago.


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## Starbomba

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vikhr*
> 
> Actually the Deathadder has onboard memory, Synapse just doesn't utilize it. You need to use the old legacy drivers which can be found in an archive on Razer's website if you want to be able to use onboard memory and take advantage of a number of different features that aren't included with Synapse, not to mention that the DA tracks worse with Synapse installed.


Just changed to the "old" driver. Hell, never knew i could do this much with my mouse. The only thing i will miss is the totally custom DPI selection, but i can live with it.


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## thestache

But of an overreaction but alright.

If you don't like razer don't buy it. The mouse still works offline. The software just isn't implemented in an ideal way but the idea of synapse itself is great. And who doesnt have an always active internet connecion? The spying on you part is bed but origin and other software do it also and millions still use that.

Everybody hates razer. Always has. Everyone loves to jump on the bandwagon and bash on their stuff yet they are still one of the biggest companies in what they do. If you don't like them buy Logitech. Go figure.


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## BBEG

Hm. I don't appear to require or use this software for my Death Adder, just the Death Adder Driver (lets me modify settings). Damn shame the company's doing this too; I really like this mouse but I'm not sure I can buy another if this is how the company behaves...


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## Usario

Definitely not buying a Deathadder after this.


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## NateN34

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> I don't think anyone is accusing them of keyloggers or of selling our account credentials to various sites. But looking at the wording of their agreement, it's pretty safe to say they at the very least collect the websites you visit along with no telling how many other metrics. What music you listen to, what videos you watch, what files you open, what programs you have installed, etc. are all on the table.
> A real-time information feed and their TOS give no comfort.


You have to be kidding..........

I never liked Razor from the start..........but now they are selling spyware mouses? Wow! What a junk company..


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## prava

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scutzi128*
> 
> People are so dramatic. This isn't even DRM it is to create profiles that can be saved so that the mouse settings are preserved. I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age? It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thestache*
> 
> But of an overreaction but alright.
> If you don't like razer don't buy it. The mouse still works offline. The software just isn't implemented in an ideal way but the idea of synapse itself is great. And who doesnt have an always active internet connecion? The spying on you part is bed but origin and other software do it also and millions still use that.
> Everybody hates razer. Always has. Everyone loves to jump on the bandwagon and bash on their stuff yet they are still one of the biggest companies in what they do. If you don't like them buy Logitech. Go figure.


What??!?!?!







Seriously, what?!?!?!?!







For any artificial requirement you build into a product... there better be a reason for it. I don't care how many good things a mouse could do with internet because A MOUSE has no need for internet whatsoever, as the task its meant to do includes, in no way, the use of internet.

So, you are truly naive users. Razer has implemented the crappiest idea I've yet to read about computer peripherals, specially for a product that doesn't need internet for nothing. Also, storing profiles in the cloud?!?!?!?!?!??! Who would EVER use that?!?!?!?! Most useless feature they could have put on a mouse, and the fact that it requires internet to function with the up-do-date drivers is... well... I'm speech-less.

I'll make sure never to touch any Razer product at all... and its funny because at this day and age I'm using mice that require no software at all, pure plug and play mouse and if I ever need some macros I just jump on autohotkeys and be done with it; but to know that some drivers are so crappy that they require internet... no, thank you.

I hope the company goes down.. or a lot of people are fired up there...


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## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thestache*
> 
> But of an overreaction but alright.
> If you don't like razer don't buy it. The mouse still works offline. The software just isn't implemented in an ideal way but the idea of synapse itself is great. And who doesnt have an always active internet connecion? The spying on you part is bed but origin and other software do it also and millions still use that.
> Everybody hates razer. Always has. Everyone loves to jump on the bandwagon and bash on their stuff yet they are still one of the biggest companies in what they do. If you don't like them buy Logitech. Go figure.


Nothing I have said is out of previous hate for Razer or bandwagoning. I think most of their branding and marketing is pretty cheesy, but I haven't come anywhere close to boycotting them for any reason. I was actually thinking about buying one of their mousepads pretty soon; I probably still will.

This did it for me for any of their hardware though. Something like this isn't decided whimsically. It goes to the core of a companies values and standards.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NateN34*
> 
> You have to be kidding..........
> I never liked Razor from the start..........but now they are selling spyware mouses? Wow! What a junk company..


None of that stuff is proven, but their TOS leaves it all wide open. And the real-time information flow doesn't help anything.


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## Mootsfox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thestache*
> 
> But of an overreaction but alright.
> If you don't like razer don't buy it. The mouse still works offline. The software just isn't implemented in an ideal way but the idea of synapse itself is great. And who doesnt have an always active internet connecion? The spying on you part is bed but origin and other software do it also and millions still use that.
> Everybody hates razer. Always has. Everyone loves to jump on the bandwagon and bash on their stuff yet they are still one of the biggest companies in what they do. If you don't like them buy Logitech. Go figure.


No. It does not. You can use it as a pointer device with standard three button click and scroll, that's it offline.

If you want to use any of the features, for example on the Epic, the whole point is the pad of buttons. You MUST be connected to use those. Why is there a need to be connected for that to work? Mouse software has worked fine for the last decade without an always activate connection. This is just a really poor idea from Razer.


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## RetroSpiderman

I just ordered a death adder...


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## ivr56

Deathadders have offline pnly drivers that do not deal with Synapze


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## Someguy316

I had an 1800 DPI Deathadder that I recently bricked (trying to reflash the firmware), so that means I'll need to replace it and I'm pretty much moving on from Razer mice. Many of the new ones don't seem worth it to me; currently using a Microsoft 400 dpi mouse that works just as great. I also never installed the Synapse stuff because as mentioned, the Deathadder drivers were just offline ones and I don't really swap profiles.


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## Xzeara

Wow, While I doubt much will be done about this DRM crap for a mouse... I will vow to never buy a razer product again.


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## djriful

That is terrible OP... good thing I'm not getting any more Razer.


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## The-Beast

Been using Naga 3.0 to avoid Razer Synapse. Its just a terrible piece of software. Naga was uncomfortable for my hand in D3, I switched to the Rat Albino still not as comfortable as my old Lachsis but it has a nicely placed Push to Talk key.


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## Madog

Really hate to here this.. Was about to buy a keyboard and mat from them.


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## tpi2007

I am utterly disgusted with companies that do this, and the problem is that they think they can get away with more and more. A mouse that can only be configured if you have Internet access ? They specifically state they can collect personally identifiable information, and even say "Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below." And since the policy can change, what if to log into the service at a later time you need to agree to the new terms ? Things have gotten beyond ridicule and any customer complacency on this matter should be fought strongly. This is not acceptable at all!

Microsoft is doing the same thing with Windows 8, if you want to buy and use apps from the store, you have to switch from a local account to a Microsoft account, which means the whole OS and not only the store / modern environment is now being used with the Microsoft account, how's that for privacy ? The Smart Screen filter (which is now an OS feature) also comes turned on by default and sends a request to Microsoft to check if each and every one of your downloads is safe. Instead of downloading signature files to check against and preserve your privacy, just like Anti-virus and Internet Security Packages do, it sends a request to Microsoft each time you download something (Microsoft will have data on when you download stuff), with your IP address, the name of the file and some additional information to correctly identify the file besides its name. Yes, you can turn this feature off, and you can use a local account, but thus lose a part of Windows 8's protection and forfeit buying and using apps from the store, so you can see the trend, it's like companies are (some more slowly than others) trying to see how far they can go in harvesting data and habits from consumers.

Also, remember the Cisco routers' firmware from a few months ago ? Same idea.

If people don't come together to fight this, it's only going to get worse and companies will think they can get away with everything.


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## nukefission

Damn... They had some sweet mice
Guess I`l stick to logitech


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## gerickjohn

Maybe they started/activated this new feature for the new batch of Razer gear. My Blackwidow worked out of the box, but the Razer software kept freezing while in the taskbar so, I disabled it from Startup, since then my Blackwidow's been working great.


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## Carniflex

Wow. Thats pretty disgusting - if you are based in EU then it might be reasonable to open a ticket with your local data protection agency and let them take a close look if whats Razer is doing is legal. Particularly in germany within EU the privacy laws and agency enforcing these is quite serious.


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## clerick

Been saying for years that razer is a horrible company with terrible hardware that is all dressed up to look nice and go for the "mac feel".


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## supra_rz

bye bye Razer


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## mosi

So we're talking about a mouse driver that, according to the TOS, can contain spyware? Maybe some data protection agency in the EU will step in as someone already said but actually I doubt it, as their service is based outside the EU. We'll probably see. It clearly shows the attitude they have towards us as customers though and I don't like that.

Thank you channelx99 for bringing this up! Hopefully this'll gain a lot of momentum and they will reverse that policy for the fear of reputation loss among gamers. I'm not in the need to buy input hardware right now but I'll spread the word among friends so they hopefully look elsewhere. I'm kinda glad that one of them just bought a Cyborg RAT MMO this week.


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## czin125

How to uninstall the synapse drivers to install the offline drivers?


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## BababooeyHTJ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ivr56*
> 
> Deathadders have offline pnly drivers that do not deal with Synapze


Thats what I use.


----------



## TrueZarken

Just don't use the Synapse software? I have the 2012 Mamba (liked the feel in store, but it just could never replace the old Xai that died and I am now looking for a new mouse) and the only software I have is the Mamba software that doesn't require a login. You can still use their products to their full potential just don't install the Synapse software. Sure you miss out in storing your profiles in the cloud, but I never really saw the benefit anyway.


----------



## Thebreezybb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vitality*
> 
> I have a blackwidow and deathadder and don't even have the razer software installed.


This.

I never install any software that comes with the Keyboard or the mouse. But, this is ridiculous!!


----------



## Sikozu

https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan?ref=stream

CEO of Razer, flood his facebook with messages of discontent.


----------



## eternal7trance

If you need a Naga that bad, just get a Logitech G600. Same setup, better feel, just as many buttons and the software is really nice.


----------



## Hukkel

DRM on hardware. We're all doomed.

How come when companies grow large they start to make stupid mistakes like this?

I like my Roccat kova+

My next keyboard will not again be a Razer, that is vor sure.


----------



## Razi3l

This is just pathetic. I haven't used a Razer product in a few years now and I won't be considering them again (regardless of this to be honest) but even then, collecting and selling information? As if they don't rip off customers already with their ridiculous pricing.


----------



## Sikozu

From his facebook in reply to my message;

https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan
Quote:


> We invented onboard memory for gaming mice many years ago and called it Synapse to allow gamers to bring their profiles with them on the go. However, we realized that we ran into another issue where we had to keep increasing the amount of memory onboard to provide for more storage and this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers.
> 
> We then invented Synapse 2.0 where we could provide almost limitless amount of storage for profiles, macros, etc in the cloud as opposed to being limited by physical memory.
> 
> We wanted to avoid raising prices to gamers for higher memory space onboard (think about it like having to buy bigger and bigger hard drives as opposed to having all your storage on the cloud) and provide a much better service for our users.
> 
> Synapse 2.0 is NOT DRM. Our products work perfectly well out of the box without Synapse 2.0. Synapse 2.0 provides ADDITIONAL functionality of almost limitless memory in the cloud as opposed to taking away functionality (which is what DRM is).
> 
> We recognize that gamers will want to be able to use their gear without an online connection, and that's why Synapse 2.0 has an OFFLINE mode. Basically you have to register, create an account, save your initial settings and if you so prefer, you can stay in offline mode all the time without going online.
> 
> I realize that we have had issues with the activation server, and we're making sure we get that sorted out.


----------



## KamuiRSX

Wow....so what if you get like last years model mouse? Will it still require this crap?


----------



## Degree

I think you guys are over-reacting on the "spying" aspect of this Synapse 2.0
First of all,
Quote:


> By using Razer Synapse 2.0 ("Synapse"), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.


This is for the cloud service they introduced in Synapse 2.0, which is fetching your profiles you set for your mouse from your computer uploading it to the cloud so you can get it anytime. This is what the information they are talking about, aggregated information: the profiles, personally identifiable information: incase something happens you can verify that it is you and retrieve your account back using the information that Synapse has


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> I think you guys are over-reacting on the "spying" aspect of this Synapse 2.0


I disagree. Its apparent the only reason Razer made online only drivers is to watch what customers are doing and profit off the info by selling it to third parties. I dont understand how you dont think this is wrong?


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KamuiRSX*
> 
> Wow....so what if you get like last years model mouse? Will it still require this crap?


as far as I know older mice you can still used archived drivers before the Synapse 2.0 garbage but Razer is proceeding with making Synapse 2.0 a requirement for newer products like the Naga 2012


----------



## Degree

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> I disagree. Its apparent the only reason Razer made online only drivers is to watch what customers are doing and profit off the info by selling it to third parties. I dont understand how you dont think this is wrong?


They made it online because MANY gamers travel around with their mouse and they can get their profiles anywhere. So many during LAN events and tournies.

They are not watching what customers are doing, they have no reason to at all, and selling to third parties is just crazy, what could they possibly sell to third parties, and what third parties that can use what information Razer can collect?. They have no need to watch over us, unless it is the US Gov.


----------



## crashdummy35

Quote:


> From the Razer Synapse TOS agreement:
> 
> "*User Generated Information*" means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, *you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind*.


I don't own a tin foil hat but, that seems rather vague/excessive for simply being able to use your mouse....

Don't see how that has anything to do with cloud storage. Well, maybe it could be they are looking at user mouse profiles to see how they can streamline their own out-of-the-box profiles but, that seems pretty lame imo.

@Degree, Yeah that LAN access makes sense.


----------



## sumonpathak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> I think you guys are over-reacting on the "spying" aspect of this Synapse 2.0
> First of all,
> This is for the cloud service they introduced in Synapse 2.0, which is fetching your profiles you set for your mouse from your computer uploading it to the cloud so you can get it anytime. This is what the information they are talking about, aggregated information: the profiles, personally identifiable information: incase something happens you can verify that it is you and retrieve your account back using the information that Synapse has


this....


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> They made it online because MANY gamers travel around with their mouse and they can get their profiles anywhere. So many during LAN events and tournies.
> They are not watching what customers are doing, they have no reason to at all, and selling to third parties is just crazy. They have no need to watch over us, unless it is the US Gov.


Saving profiles to the internal memory of the mouse itself would have been the clear way to handle this and other companies already do this. Cloud based, always online software is not needed and was never asked for. The TOS just reinforce what Razer intended


----------



## Degree

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> Saving profiles to the internal memory of the mouse itself would have been the clear way to handle this. Cloud based, always online software is not needed and was never asked for. The TOS just reinforce what Razer intended


You can also use the profiles for other mice too, many people have their own travel/work/home/gaming mouse. Many people want to keep their DA at home and only bring their Lachesis to LANs. Everything is moving to the cloud and Razer sees that. They want to do it too, many of your things are going to be cloud based my friend. Everything is moving to the cloud. Razer is simply transitioning to the cloud like everyone else.
They are simply improving their service.


----------



## slosha69

AHAHA. I thought Razer was a crap brand before. Now, now there is no reason to buy their rice.


----------



## jellis142

The mouse use to be simple; that's over. If your serious enough to have a mouse for one function, and another mouse JUST for gaming, buy a flash drive and store the profiles on that, not on the cloud. Guaranteed to never lose connection, just store it somewhere in your rig when you leave. Not EVERYTHING has to move to the cloud.


----------



## Lxcivic2k1

This makes absolutely no sense. I can see how you can opt to store your profiles online, but forcing is another thing. Storing on the mouse is a much better idea or obviously a better way of doing it. Not everyone has internet access....
I'm glad I never bought any of Razer's products. I'll stick to my lovely G500.


----------



## haxmode

I wasn't even aware people used mouse software.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> You can also use the profiles for other mice too, many people have their own travel/work/home/gaming mouse. Many people want to keep their DA at home and only bring their Lachesis to LANs. Everything is moving to the cloud and Razer sees that. They want to do it too, many of your things are going to be cloud based my friend. Everything is moving to the cloud. Razer is simply transitioning to the cloud like everyone else.
> They are simply improving their service.


So, you are ok with online mouse activation before you can use the software? Its ok the TOS give Razer the right to do whatever they wish with the information they collect from you, and take it a step further by saying if anything happens Razer cannot be held liable and your only course of action is to stop using the mouse? They strip all your rights away from you. This is *not* ok.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH RAZER WITH REGARD TO SYNAPSE OR THE SOFTWARE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF SYNAPSE AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT.

You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Razer and its affiliates from all liabilities, claims and expenses, including attorneys' fees, that arise from or in connection with breach of this Agreement, use or misuse of Synapse or any Subscription or any related content, or any User Generated Information. Razer reserves the right, at its own expense, to assume the exclusive defense and control of any matter otherwise subject to indemnification by you. In that event, you shall have no further obligation to provide indemnification to Razer in that matter. This Section shall survive Account Cancellation (as defined below).

Razer may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. Reasonable steps will be taken to notify you of any such amendment. If you do not agree to the amendment, your only remedy is to cancel your Account. Your failure to cancel your Account shall be deemed acceptance of the amendment.

*You acknowledge and agree that Account Cancellation shall be your sole remedy in the event of any dispute with Razer.*


----------



## Thedark1337

quit over reacting, its only used for storing profiles to the cloud so that anybody could travel anywhere and use it without having to reconfigure a mouse. in b4 the lock


----------



## Sir Beregond

GG Razer. Buh-bye.


----------



## XAslanX

1. Lure young customers in with "gaming" products
2. Force spyware software to activate and use said products
3. ?????????????
4. Profit!

So glad I don't use that garbage, Logitech and Microsoft products have yet to let me down.


----------



## Alex132

Who cares really, I mean like who ever buys an MMO mouse deserves this anyway.
Also the OP is overreacting a hella lot.


----------



## Sylon

This is not the first time a company has tried to collect information about their customers, or anyone for that matter.

Nothing new here, move on.


----------



## Tomus

Im glad that i can use old drivers with my deathadder. I've used synapse only for a few minutes and got pretty shocked because it was laggy as hell. If there are no non-synapse drivers for new mice i might have to switch brand after reign of 3xDeathadder 1xLycosa 1xSphex


----------



## Alex132

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tomus*
> 
> Im glad that i can use old drivers with my deathadder. I've used synapse only for a few minutes and got pretty shocked because it was laggy as hell. If there are no non-synapse drivers for new mice i might have to switch brand after reign of 3xDeathadder 1xLycosa 1xSphex


i dont even think i use drivers for my DA, why do you even need drivers?

even if, just use old ones


----------



## Degree

Well all I'm saying is you guys are over-reacting.


----------



## Tomus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alex132*
> 
> i dont even think i use drivers for my DA, why do you even need drivers?
> even if, just use old ones


To set things up? I know that by default the 4th and 5th button are labeled windows button 4 / 5. But if you want to change that to anything else i suppose you need that soft.
The point is that old ones are ok and dont req. internet while synapse does. Synapse is allso really laggy and can freeze your game for a while when you change anything.


----------



## Promark747

cloud cloud cloud. Its all stupid when it comes to the cloud. Why cant they just say its on a server. Anyways I would take any razor product back and buy Logitech or something.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> Well all I'm saying is you guys are over-reacting.


Please explain how? Someone drops $80 on a mouse, and cant use it because Razer requires online activation of said mouse and their servers are down. Would you not be upset about not being able to use a product you paid for because of a companies incompetence? Then you find out the reason they released this software in the first place is to data mine from customers and then further prevent you from taking any action against them by their shady TOS agreement. People have a right to be upset about this


----------



## alpsie

This aint posted in the proper section.
only posted it in newssection so it would be show on front page.
And yea you are overreacting,
again TOS does not overrule LAW
-
and as other stated in your other topic. You can simply use an older driver which dont force you to use synaps. Only them wher eone could complain and throw fits like you are doing now, is if they forced you to auto update.


----------



## Promark747

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> They made it online because MANY gamers travel around with their mouse and they can get their profiles anywhere. So many during LAN events and tournies.
> They are not watching what customers are doing, they have no reason to at all, and selling to third parties is just crazy, what could they possibly sell to third parties, and what third parties that can use what information Razer can collect?. They have no need to watch over us, unless it is the US Gov.


Crazy? Thats why even overclock.net uses cookies to help collect info on each of us for their advertising, it pays the bills. In razors case it buys the boat or big house lol. Google does it with everything and they get away with it. Why wouldnt every company collect our info for advertising?


----------



## Tomus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alpsie*
> 
> and as other stated in your other topic. You can simply use an older driver which dont force you to use synaps. Only them wher eone could complain and throw fits like you are doing now, is if they forced you to auto update.


So there are a synapse and non-synapse drivers for each mouse?


----------



## Stuuut

People are overreacting, they aren't spying.... maybe you guys should go read some other ToS'es from installed programs on your computer (You would think the whole world is watching what you are doing on your computer)

Anyways call me crazy but i didn't install any of the crappy Razer Synapse drivers (the older ones are good tough) but mine works fine with normal windows drivers or whatever.


----------



## IcedEarth

I think people are over reacting in regards to spying.

However I think it's equally ridiculous that you need to be online to register your mouse before use....it's a mouse for crying out loud. I want to plug it in and use it. I don't want a cloud account, I don't need a cloud account and I sure as hell won't buy a mouse that requires online authentication, the ops experience of the servers being down is a prime example of why this is a stupid idea for something such as a mouse.


----------



## Alex132

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tomus*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Alex132*
> 
> i dont even think i use drivers for my DA, why do you even need drivers?
> even if, just use old ones
> 
> 
> 
> To set things up? I know that by default the 4th and 5th button are labeled windows button 4 / 5. But if you want to change that to anything else i suppose you need that soft.
> The point is that old ones are ok and dont req. internet while synapse does. Synapse is allso really laggy and can freeze your game for a while when you change anything.
Click to expand...

you can change them in games too, or even get 3rd party software if you REALLY dont wanna use old drivers.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alpsie*
> 
> -
> and as other stated in your other topic. You can simply use an older driver which dont force you to use synaps. Only them wher eone could complain and throw fits like you are doing now, is if they forced you to auto update.


No, you cant. Theres no other driver available for the Naga 2012. The driver posted was for the Naga Epic. If you read the post you would have seen the driver does not recognize the 2012. There is no choice but to use Synapse 2.0

And to clear things up, the Naga 2012 has 12 buttons on the side alone that are configurable *only* if you use the Synapse software. Some games might let you customize them, but for applications out of games, which a lot of people buy this mouse for, then youre out of luck.


----------



## Stuuut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> No, you cant. Theres no other driver available for the Naga 2012. The driver posted was for the Naga Epic. If you read the post you would have seen the driver does not recognize the 2012. There is no choice but to use Synapse 2.0


My DA works just fine without any Razer drivers.... just plain ol windows drivers.


----------



## prava

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Promark747*
> 
> Crazy? Thats why even overclock.net uses cookies to help collect info on each of us for their advertising, it pays the bills. In razors case it buys the boat or big house lol. Google does it with everything and they get away with it. Why wouldnt every company collect our info for advertising?


What?!?! OCN NEEDS internet to exist, and nobody is paying to use it (you don't have to... if you don't want to). We are talking about a MOUSE that has no need to use internet for anything... but requires you to do so for the most basic things.

How is that not crazy?


----------



## Thingamajig

In regards to spying, though, What bothers me somewhat is many of you imply that "Because one company does it, why cry when Razer does?" to which my only response could be "Well, gotta start somewhere"

Or, alternatively, we could just all lie down and take whatever they throw at us, simply because it's the accepted norm. Now that's madness. The real kicker is this is about a piece of hardware -- a mouse no less -- Thats what's upsetting the most and i can fully understand this "overreaction" entirely. The older i've gotten, the less tolerant to bull i've become.

Yup. Lets just bottle up our objections, shrug our shoulders and do nothing about it. That will end brilliantly.


----------



## SOCOM_HERO

Well, I have never owned a razer mouse. But I do own one of their mousepads, no cloud storage on that thing!


----------



## IcedEarth

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SOCOM_HERO*
> 
> Well, I have never owned a razer mouse. But I do own one of their mousepads, no cloud storage on that thing!


Yet.


----------



## X-Nine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IcedEarth*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *SOCOM_HERO*
> 
> Well, I have never owned a razer mouse. But I do own one of their mousepads, no cloud storage on that thing!
> 
> 
> 
> Yet.
Click to expand...











LOL. That will be the day that all gaming has gone to hell.


----------



## coachmark2

I have firmly decided to take one brand off of consideration for ever buying a mouse. This basically gives them the keys to your data and says they can do WHATEVER they want with it, no restrictions. This is the worst invasion of privacy I've ever seen by a hardware manufacturer. This is absolutely insane.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> I think you guys are over-reacting on the "spying" aspect of this Synapse 2.0
> First of all,
> This is for the cloud service they introduced in Synapse 2.0, which is fetching your profiles you set for your mouse from your computer uploading it to the cloud so you can get it anytime. This is what the information they are talking about, aggregated information: the profiles, personally identifiable information: incase something happens you can verify that it is you and retrieve your account back using the information that Synapse has


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> Well all I'm saying is you guys are over-reacting.


How can you claim to know this is only used for mouse profiles? The TOS specifically allows sharing of your information with third-parties, and the mouse keeps a constant data feed going with the mouse.

Some people in the other thread with later mice where this software is mandatory have complained about the mouse actually stopping working when their internet is interrupted and the mouse has to transition between offline and online mode over and over again. I see absolutely no reason for a mouse to require a constant connection like that. I could understand periodic updates with the server to make sure everything is backed up, but this is overkill.

Something like this doesn't happen by accident. It goes to the core of a company's standards and values. If you want to assume the best and hope the worst isn't true, in spite of all the possibilities the facts represent, go right ahead. The rest of us don't have to.

Even assuming none of the data mining and selling is true, I don't want to support a mouse needing online activation just to be used and then a completely uninterrupted connection or else the mouse ceases to work periodically.

There's too much competition out there for me or anyone else to have to put up with any of it.


----------



## IcedEarth

You want to use your brand new 1440p IPS monitor?

Too bad it's limited to 1024 x 768 until you register it!

To be honest though, this is blatantly the way everything is going.


----------



## Thingamajig

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> Something like this doesn't happen by accident. It goes to the core of a company's standards and values. If you want to assume the best and hope the worst isn't true, in spite of all the possibilities the facts represent, go right ahead. The rest of us don't have to..


Exactly.

And when the worst is true, it's too late.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IcedEarth*
> 
> You want to use your brand new 1440p IPS monitor?
> Too bad it's limited to 1024 x 768 until you register it!
> To be honest though, this is blatantly the way everything is going.


This is basically how i feel. Is it not enough that i've already purchased the item, plus any additional costs (addons, extended warranties, insurance, etc) and pay for the electricity to run it? Will i also need to add an ISP contract to that as well? Anyone who is prepared to accept this is crazy.


----------



## MaxFTW

Im sorry, But is there a lack of mice that save the settings to the actual mouse itself? My roccat kone v2 saves the settings to it but to use the extra buttons thats all i need the drivers installed for really.


----------



## Kaldari

Looks like the old thread has been unhidden and the new one was merged with it. A step in the right direction I suppose.


----------



## Dezixn

Was considering a Razer mouse in the future. Avoiding Razer products for now. I hope the company sees this.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Once again, not going to argue the validity of whether the software does in fact spy on people or not.

Those saying that the drivers require internet to function this is infact not true. The configurator software (aka the hub for all the system changes) does however actually using the macros/currently stored profile does not.

As we all know the mice and keyboards have tiny flash memory in them to store a profile and its associated macros as well as firmware. The configurator used to store other profiles on your HDD but now it stores them on the cloud/server. Your macros/profile that was selected at the loss of an internet connection should still function and for me at least they do. Changing profiles and macros isn't possible as they are stored on the cloud and without an internet connection you cannot access them.

Also, just to point out again, its normal to be skeptical of new change and different technologies than what we're used to. Remember back in like 2002 everyone thought touch screens were an over priced fad that everyone thought would eventually go away. Look at us now a decade later eh?







I'm not saying it isn't new and weird, I'm just saying it might be something that when it finishes being improved, will be something we can live with.

Edit: Wth is with all the moderator hate lately? Its getting old and its really unfounded.


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Okay that's enough of accusing us of censoring. We didn't censor anyone. It was simply a case of a misunderstanding. The error has been fixed. I've also merged the two threads together...


----------



## channelx99

Thought people might enjoy quote from none other but the CEO of Razer
http://i.imgur.com/nCpsH.png


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Razer's response to the whole situation
Quote:


> We invented onboard memory for gaming mice many years ago and called it Synapse to allow gamers to bring their profiles with them on the go. However, we realized that we ran into another issue where we had to keep increasing the amount of memory onboard to provide for more storage and this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers.
> 
> We then invented Synapse 2.0 where we could provide almost limitless amount of storage for profiles, macros, etc in the cloud as opposed to being limited by physical memory.
> 
> We wanted to avoid raising prices to gamers for higher memory space onboard (think about it like having to buy bigger and bigger hard drives as opposed to having all your storage on the cloud) and provide a much better service for our users.
> 
> Synapse 2.0 is NOT DRM. Our products work perfectly well out of the box without Synapse 2.0. Synapse 2.0 provides ADDITIONAL functionality of almost limitless memory in the cloud as opposed to taking away functionality (which is what DRM is).
> 
> We recognize that gamers will want to be able to use their gear without an online connection, and that's why Synapse 2.0 has an OFFLINE mode. Basically you have to register, create an account, save your initial settings and if you so prefer, you can stay in offline mode all the time without going online.
> 
> I realize that we have had issues with the activation server, and we're making sure we get that sorted out.


https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan/posts/439763436081444


----------



## Juganot

So is there any proof that razer are in fact collecting personal information via synapse 2.0? I suspect if they were (even with the ToS) it would be downright illegal and as such not allowed.

Edit:

The response they gave is stupid... why not just have an option to store all macros and settings locally without requiring activation? I am certain every modern computer can handle a few settings.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juganot*
> 
> So is there any proof that razer are in fact collecting personal information via synapse 2.0? I suspect if they were (even with the ToS) it would be downright illegal and as such not allowed.


Exactly. There is no proof but admittedly is is suspicious. We do not know the intent here what so ever.


----------



## prava

Razers response... sigh. So, instead of...

"Ok fellows, we will create a Synapse offline program that doesn't need internet access whatsoever, not even for the first install."

We get... "you only have to access internet once..."

We DON'T WANT A MOUSE THAT REQUIRES INTERNET. Who cares whether it just uses internet once or it uses forever? Its a feature, its DRM. And the excuse that onboard memory is getting expensive... sure, why not use a pendrive for that? Huh?

Excuses and more excuses...

...a mouse with DRM, no less...


----------



## Ksireaper

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The-Beast*
> 
> Been using Naga 3.0 to avoid Razer Synapse. Its just a terrible piece of software. Naga was uncomfortable for my hand in D3, I switched to the Rat Albino still not as comfortable as my old Lachsis but it has a nicely placed Push to Talk key.


Sucks cause i used Naga 3.0 on win 7. But the ONLY drivers that work on windows 8 are the synapsis 2.0. i wish there were custom drivers somewhere.


----------



## Despair

Glad I got an individual mouse driver from the "previous release" section before they took it down. Hehe...tried synapse..hated it. It doesn't even have as many options as the original mouse driver and i think it's stupid. When my DeathAdder dies and they still have this crap I'm not gonna buy another Razer mouse.


----------



## seepra

Okay, boycotting Razer and telling everyone about this. Seeing that I work in retail, I'm surely able to make a tiny dent into their sales, maybe ask the boss to not stock Razer anymore.


----------



## eternal7trance

Like I said before, the G600 is far superior to the Naga. Get one and enjoy the benefits of having things stored without needing the internet and still have your 12 thumb buttons.


----------



## Juganot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seepra*
> 
> Okay, boycotting Razer and telling everyone about this. Seeing that I work in retail, I'm surely able to make a tiny dent into their sales, maybe ask the boss to not stock Razer anymore.


A tad bit extreme. The fact you need to go online once to deactivate it is a tad bit bad but if you don't have internet or a stable internet I dare say a razer keyboard/mouse isn't for that customer.


----------



## tpi2007

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sikozu*
> 
> From his facebook in reply to my message;
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> We invented onboard memory for gaming mice many years ago and called it Synapse to allow gamers to bring their profiles with them on the go. However, we realized that we ran into another issue where we had to keep increasing the amount of memory onboard to provide for more storage and this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers.
> 
> We then invented Synapse 2.0 where we could provide almost limitless amount of storage for profiles, macros, etc in the cloud as opposed to being limited by physical memory.
> 
> We wanted to avoid raising prices to gamers for higher memory space onboard (think about it like having to buy bigger and bigger hard drives as opposed to having all your storage on the cloud) and provide a much better service for our users.
> 
> Synapse 2.0 is NOT DRM. Our products work perfectly well out of the box without Synapse 2.0. Synapse 2.0 provides ADDITIONAL functionality of almost limitless memory in the cloud as opposed to taking away functionality (which is what DRM is).
> 
> We recognize that gamers will want to be able to use their gear without an online connection, and that's why Synapse 2.0 has an OFFLINE mode. Basically you have to register, create an account, save your initial settings and if you so prefer, you can stay in offline mode all the time without going online.
> 
> I realize that we have had issues with the activation server, and we're making sure we get that sorted out.
Click to expand...

I don't know whether I should laugh or be angry at his answer.

Increasing price of on-board memory ? He implies this. He says they needed to add more memory and that "this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers", but neglects to say that memory prices have been falling. Who does he think he is kidding ? Many of the people who buy these products know exactly how the price of flash memory is, and it is going down. And how many megabytes does he want the consumer to believe it takes to store macros ? Lol, I'm sorry this is just too ridiculous of an excuse to take seriously. You can store all your settings and macros in probably 1 megabyte of memory, probably even less, unless some terrible coding is going on. (Edit: just read a reply of him on his Facebook, he does indeed mention between 128 kilobytes for the normal gamer and 1 megabyte for the hardcore gamer. Now that we have that out of the way, who does he think he's kidding about increasing prices of the mice ? What difference would it make ? 20 cents ?)

And then in the last two paragraphs he admits that you do need to "register, create an account, save your initial settings and if you so prefer, you can stay in offline mode all the time without going online.", so you really do need to have an internet connection to get the mouse running at its full potential. This alone should be enough to allow every consumer to return the 2012 model (which apparently does not work with older drivers) to the store because it is not mentioned anywhere in the packaging that an Internet connection is required.


----------



## Darkpriest667

I sent their CEO a message on his facebook wall. check it out add your own two cents.. I posted a picture of where my synapse has been frozen since august.

https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan?ref=stream


----------



## Sh3ldor

Got to say this was a funny read, ty guys and gals.
This place is one of the most paranoid places ever, we have been putting up with syapsis for a while.

Then one tin foil hat doesn't like it or just discovers if for the first time with his new razer mouse and everyone joins him on the hate wagon.

This has been blown WAY out of proportion.

Lmao hunting down their ceo's and all sorts.
Ye lets get paranoid about razer syapsis that has nothing to do with our personal details, but then spill our life all over facebook.
Go logic!


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> Like I said before, the G600 is far superior to the Naga. Get one and enjoy the benefits of having things stored without needing the internet and still have your 12 thumb buttons.


Actually it isn't as it has lower DPI then the 2012. The button count is the same the comfort is roughly the same (I'll be getting one for my mini rig actually because I don't want to have an identical mouse to my main btw, so don't throw the fanboy bomb prematurely







) However I will give Logitech credit on using multicolour LEDs for it while keeping it wired. Giving it an edge over the naga however where I live the naga is cheaper and (as basically anyone who knows me knows) I'm quite ok with blue. This also really isn't relevant to this thread though mate.
(If you have one though please PM me as I'd love to discuss)


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Could we ease up the hostility in this thread please? No need to accuse each other of being "fanboys" Also, could we move on what happened earlier? As mentioned above, there was a case of misunderstanding between two moderators. The error has been fixed and therefore no longer an issue. Let us get back on topic.

Thanks.


----------



## Thingamajig

Quote:


> We invented onboard memory for gaming mice many years ago and called it Synapse to allow gamers to bring their profiles with them on the go. However, we realized that we ran into another issue where we had to keep increasing the amount of memory onboard to provide for more storage and this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers.


How many GB's do i need in my mouse to store macro's?

Also, could always store this data on my own computer. You know, the kind of thing these companies so conveniently forget about to dupe me into using one of their "services". My pc has the functionality, i paid for it. But thanks anyway.


----------



## Blooddrunk

My problems with Razer don't lie with the software and this doesn't really make it less likely that I will purchase a razer product. Though I do think they should let people set up their hardware that they spend outrageous amounts of money on regardless of being online or not.


----------



## Am3oo

Disturbing and disgusting. I also see that I'm not the only one with the 'double click' problem on a razer mouse (it was the Krait, cheap mouse, but still, 6 months 'til it bit the dust)


----------



## TopicClocker

This is messed up, I wanted a Razer mouse as I was looking at them yesterday, but now I'll never touch one.
"Synapse 2.0 is NOT DRM"
Bull!
"We wanted to avoid raising prices to gamers for higher memory space onboard"
So a mouse with a profile, if not multiple profiles will take up all of your hard drive space? each profile should be a configuration file which should weigh in under an an one Megabyte per profile, if not five profiles which are this size.
This is sickening, thank you for exposing this more people need to know that there are a lot of crooked people and companies out there in the public eye and there are many, many people who are ignorant to this.


----------



## Ksireaper

Get a G600. It will be my next mouse for sure.


----------



## tpi2007

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thingamajig*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> We invented onboard memory for gaming mice many years ago and called it Synapse to allow gamers to bring their profiles with them on the go. However, we realized that we ran into another issue where we had to keep increasing the amount of memory onboard to provide for more storage and this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers.
> 
> 
> 
> How many GB's do i need in my mouse to store macro's?
> 
> Also, could always store this data on my own computer. You know, the kind of thing these companies so conveniently forget about to dupe me into using one of their "services". My pc has the functionality, i paid for it. But thanks anyway.
Click to expand...

Between 128 kb for a normal gamer to 1 megabyte for a hardcore gamer. You were thinking the same as me in my post #140. I was doing some rough over the top estimate when I mentioned 1 megabyte, and then I read the CEO's answer in one of his replies on one of his posts on Facebook. Honestly, how expensive is it to get 1 megabyte of flash memory on a mouse these days ? I bought a 128 GB SSD the other day for less than € 100. 1 GB of flash memory costs less than € 1 nowadays, how much does a THOUSAND times less cost ?


----------



## Mygaffer

I think the appropriate term is "failboats away"!

I never liked Razer products so this does not bother me but I would be pissed if I bought the mouse and they had not disclosed this fact upfront. Very terrible to require it and not allow users the option using their configuration software without creating accounts or connecting to the Internet.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darkpriest667*
> 
> I sent their CEO a message on his facebook wall. check it out add your own two cents.. I posted a picture of where my synapse has been frozen since august.
> https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan?ref=stream


The CEO's reply sidesteps the privacy and spying issues, and then goes on to pretty much lie about Synapse 2.0. There is no way to toggle offline mode. If youre connected to the internet, so is Synapse.

The mouse doesnt "work perfectly fine outside the box without Synapse 2.0" either. If you want to configure the 17 buttons on Naga 2012, make macros, change the LED lighting, setup profiles, adjust the DPI and polling rate, then you need to activate the mouse and use Synapse.


----------



## venom55520

I hate Razer Synapse. However, my favorite mouse of choice is the left-handed DeathAdder. I hated using Synapse until I realized that you could download archived drivers for it. It's kind of hard to get to, but it's there and works just fine. However, I realize that you can't do that on the mice released after synapse.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> The CEO's reply sidesteps the privacy and spying issues, and then goes on to pretty much lie about Synapse 2.0. There is no way to toggle offline mode. If youre connected to the internet, so is Synapse.
> The mouse doesnt "work perfectly fine outside the box without Synapse 2.0" either. If you want to configure the 17 buttons on Naga 2012, make macros, change the LED lighting, setup profiles, adjust the DPI and polling rate, then you need to activate the mouse and use Synapse.


1: prove it spys on you. Do it you won't do it.

2: It works just as well as any other gaming mouse out of the box, plug in, DL and install drivers, configure, play. Either use synapse or don't.


----------



## Flying Toilet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> 1: prove it spys on you. Do it you won't do it.
> 2: It works just as well as any other gaming mouse out of the box, plug in, DL and install drivers, configure, play. Either use synapse or don't.


Then don't list the 17 configurable buttons, macros and etc as a feature, but rather an option. People buy a mouse for the features, they advertise the features, people buy that over a similarly polled/DPI mouse. If I can only use the basic mouse buttons, I'll buy a basic mouse.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Flying Toilet*
> 
> Then don't list the 17 configurable buttons, macros and etc as a feature, but rather an option. People buy a mouse for the features, they advertise the features, people buy that over a similarly polled/DPI mouse. If I can only use the basic mouse buttons, I'll buy a basic mouse.


But you don't need to use synapse to do it... nor does synapse require a network connection to allow you to use your current settings, only modify them...


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> 1: prove it spys on you. Do it you won't do it.


The TOS spells it out. The burden lies on Razer to prove it doesnt. When they clearly state they collect personal info and share it with third parties, then theres obviously a big problem.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> 2: It works just as well as any other gaming mouse out of the box, plug in, DL and install drivers, configure, play. Either use synapse or don't.


If you read any of the other posts, you would realize that *it does not.* . Synapse 2.0 _is_ the driver for Naga 2012. You cannot configure the mouse without it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> But you don't need to use synapse to do it... nor does synapse require a network connection to allow you to use your current settings, only modify them...


I own the mouse in question. I dont know how to make this any clearer. You do in fact need Synapse to do it. If you dont install Synapse 2.0 and activate it over the internet, you cannot configure the mouse.


----------



## Darkpriest667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> But you don't need to use synapse to do it... nor does synapse require a network connection to allow you to use your current settings, only modify them...


please show me how to uninstall synapse and get to my configuration options with my BWU and DeathAdder... once you uninstall synapse you CANNOT REBOOT AND LOG INTO WINDOWS BECAUSE YOUR FRICKING KEYBOARD NO LONGER WORKS.


----------



## RoNNeRT

I really do not care at all for having my settings forced to be saved on a cloud. At they very least they should allow you the option to save locally. On top of that, Synapse 2.0 repeatedly crashes on me. This Deathadder is a great mouse, but I'll be searching for an upgrade from a different company very soon just because of Synapse 2.0.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> The TOS spells it out. The burden lies on Razer to prove it doesnt. When they clearly state they collect personal info and share it with third parties, then theres obviously a big problem.
> If you read any of the other posts, you would realize that *it does not.* . Synapse 2.0 _is_ the driver for Naga 2012. You cannot configure the mouse without it.


No the burden is on you not to wear a tinfoil hat in public when the news says "strange lights viewed over airport." The night before.

I have a god damned naga, I've been using Synapse 2.0 since last august, and I've never needed to have an internet connection to use macros or profiles that I had saved on the hardware's flash mem, getting different ones however isn't possible as I opt to store them on the cloud. I don't care what other people say I experience the software first hand and do NOT have the issues described. *Do not tell me things I have done *and will gladly prove I can do with video proof that I can do) are impossible.*

A little openmindedess will go far my friend.


----------



## Rookie1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> Thought people might enjoy quote from none other but the CEO of Razer
> http://i.imgur.com/nCpsH.png


If you try switching steam into offline mode it won't work on the plane (unless your airline has wifi). If you start it offline it works fine. Not the same from what everyone on here is complaining about with this mouse. Sounds like a misbalance of being convenient for the customer and limiting their options; but since I don't own and don't care to own this mouse I'd never know.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> No the burden is on you not to wear a tinfoil hat in public when the news says "strange lights viewed over airport." The night before.
> I have a god damned naga, I've been using Synapse 2.0 since last august, and I've never needed to have an internet connection to use macros or profiles that I had saved on the hardware's flash mem, getting different ones however isn't possible as I opt to store them on the cloud. I don't care what other people say I experience the software first hand and do NOT have the issues described. *Do not tell me things I have done *and will gladly prove I can do with video proof that I can do) are impossible.*
> A little openmindedess will go far my friend.


Again, Im talking about the *Naga 2012*. A *DIFFERENT* mouse. Your old Naga can be used without Synapse 2.0 by using older drivers. I dont understand why youre trying to compare a completely different product to this one, then proceed to tell me Im wrong.

Everything Ive stated before about not being able to configure the Naga 2012 without Synapse 2.0 is truth.


----------



## mechtech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> No the burden is on you not to wear a tinfoil hat in public when the news says "strange lights viewed over airport." The night before.
> I have a god damned naga, I've been using Synapse 2.0 since last august, and I've never needed to have an internet connection to use macros or profiles that I had saved on the hardware's flash mem, getting different ones however isn't possible as I opt to store them on the cloud. I don't care what other people say I experience the software first hand and do NOT have the issues described. *Do not tell me things I have done *and will gladly prove I can do with video proof that I can do) are impossible.*
> A little openmindedess will go far my friend.


The TOS you signed says that they can take the personal information that you gave them during registration and literally do whatever they want with it. Sell it to absolutely any 3rd party company for any purpose they can think up. If that doesn't bother you, that's fine, but I hope you can understand why this is unacceptable to many people.

I personally think it shows an extreme lack of respect for their customers, and as such I'll be abstaining from recommending any razor products until they update their TOS to something reasonable, or make getting on the cloud bandwagon optional.

"we ran into another issue where we had to keep increasing the amount of memory onboard to provide for more storage and this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers."
Memory prices are falling at extremely fast rates due to constant increases in transistor density. There is absolutely no way that storing _mouse settings_ is this much of a storage issue. All that would be stored is strings of text, and even a $0.50 chip could store millions of strings and numbers, I'm assuming they're making up problems in order to justify Synapse being mandatory.

As for me, I bought my Deathadder because it's a simple mouse with a high quality sensor, some of us don't want mandatory bloat!


----------



## Nenkitsune

Man, its like this that makes me glad I dumped by half broken/dying Death Adder and replaced my busted eclipse keyboard for a Roccat Kone+ and Isku. Easyshift+talk= awesome


----------



## Gallien

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alex132*
> 
> "User Generated Information" means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.
> 
> By using Razer Synapse 2.0 ("Synapse"), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.


Yea and it's only a plug and play mouse unless its activated DRM is up and running? LOL


----------



## seepra

There is no logical explanation to why woud they make Synapse 2.0 online access mandatory to access the features the mice are bought for. Unless the explanation to that is, that they want people to agree to the Synapse 2.0 TOS, which gives Razer the right to use the user data they collect. They wouldn't force it if they wouldn't benefit from it somehow, making such a service absolutely mandatory to access features of the mice is in no way handy or ergonomic.


----------



## thegreatsquare

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rookie1337*
> 
> If you try switching steam into offline mode it won't work on the plane (unless your airline has wifi). If you start it offline it works fine. Not the same from what everyone on here is complaining about with this mouse. Sounds like a misbalance of being convenient for the customer and limiting their options; but since I don't own and don't care to own this mouse I'd never know.


If I forget to go into offline mode before I leave the house, Steam still gives me the option when I'm away from the internet unless an update changes a related program [like when I went from IE8 to IE9]. Usually I just stay in offline mode and it allows me to start in offline mode multiple time even after reboots. I haven't had a problem with offline mode that I could attribute to Steam itself since early 2009.

As for the mouse, I see absolutely no reason for this. It's fine ...maybe, for a desktop, since it's normally a stationary system. For the mobility of those with gaming laptops, I think it is more likely to hassle than help.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> Again, Im talking about the *Naga 2012*. A *DIFFERENT* mouse. Your old Naga can be used without Synapse 2.0 by using older drivers. I dont understand why youre trying to compare a completely different product to this one, then proceed to tell me Im wrong.
> Everything Ive stated before about not being able to configure the Naga 2012 without Synapse 2.0 is truth.


The Naga 2012 works with the legacy drivers from the previous revisions. You are aware also that all revisions of the naga use the same firmware right? Every one. The epics have a few extra things due to wireless and LED reconfigurability. However due to how firmware works, you cannot downgrade it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mechtech*
> 
> The TOS you signed says that they can take the personal information that you gave them during registration and literally do whatever they want with it. Sell it to absolutely any 3rd party company for any purpose they can think up. If that doesn't bother you, that's fine, but I hope you can understand why this is unacceptable to many people.
> I personally think it shows an extreme lack of respect for their customers, and as such I'll be abstaining from recommending any razor products until they update their TOS to something reasonable, or make getting on the cloud bandwagon optional.
> "we ran into another issue where we had to keep increasing the amount of memory onboard to provide for more storage and this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers."
> Memory prices are falling at extremely fast rates due to constant increases in transistor density. There is absolutely no way that storing _mouse settings_ is this much of a storage issue. All that would be stored is strings of text, and even a $0.50 chip could store millions of strings and numbers, I'm assuming they're making up problems in order to justify Synapse being mandatory.
> As for me, I bought my Deathadder because it's a simple mouse with a high quality sensor, some of us don't want mandatory bloat!


I agree the cost of memory argument is horsefeathers, however as someone who goes to a LOT of lans a year, I see the function of the cloud service. As it stands it isn't mandatory as there is an offline mode, but remember, its still beta... We don't know what data is being collected but we can assume its within ethical grounds. (Again TOS doesnt overrule law.)


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> The Naga 2012 works with the legacy drivers from the previous revisions. You are aware also that all revisions of the naga use the same firmware right? Every one. The epics have a few extra things due to wireless and LED reconfigurability. However due to how firmware works, you cannot downgrade it.


I tried using many different drivers. None worked including the one for the Naga Epic. When I launched the control panel it would just say Razer Naga Epic not detected.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> I tried using many different drivers. None worked including the one for the Naga Epic. When I launched the control panel it would just say Razer Naga Epic not detected.


You tried naga driver 3.01?


----------



## stevevace2

You guys really go crazy on this stuff
All i see is an amazing convient software for pro gamers and gamers who dont always play in the same place


----------



## eternal7trance

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Actually it isn't as it has lower DPI then the 2012. The button count is the same the comfort is roughly the same (I'll be getting one for my mini rig actually because I don't want to have an identical mouse to my main btw, so don't throw the fanboy bomb prematurely
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) However I will give Logitech credit on using multicolour LEDs for it while keeping it wired. Giving it an edge over the naga however where I live the naga is cheaper and (as basically anyone who knows me knows) I'm quite ok with blue. This also really isn't relevant to this thread though mate.
> (If you have one though please PM me as I'd love to discuss)


Actually the G600 has 8200DPI and the Naga 2012 goes up to 5600DPI.

Edit: Also this cloud service is BS. I prefer mine stored on the mouse like the G600. What if you go to a LAN party and the server is down? Sucks for Naga owners using Synapse. I still have a naga but never use it anymore.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stevevace2*
> 
> You guys really go crazy on this stuff
> All i see is an amzing convient software for pro gamers and gamers who dont always play in the same place


Same here. Except I see the bugs it has, but Im picky as hell


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> Actually the G600 has 8200DPI and the Naga 2012 goes up to 5600DPI.
> Edit: Also this cloud service is BS. I prefer mine stored on the mouse like the G600. What if you go to a LAN party and the server is down? Sucks for Naga owners using Synapse. I still have a naga but never use it anymore.


Idk about the 2012 but my naga goes up to 8200DPI too... Those 4g sensors have more then 5600DPI.


----------



## Acefire

Wow what SCAM OF A LIE response about memory space in a mouse. You can get 32gb microSD cards for cheap now, and I doubt that the data saved on these devices is more than mere kb's.


----------



## Acefire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> Actually the G600 has 8200DPI and the Naga 2012 goes up to 5600DPI.
> Edit: Also this cloud service is BS. I prefer mine stored on the mouse like the G600. What if you go to a LAN party and the server is down? Sucks for Naga owners using Synapse. I still have a naga but never use it anymore.


Lol. You play me at any game you want @5600dpi and I will wipe the floor with you @ 800dpi. ANY GAME... ALL day.

DPI that high is a gimmick to cloud the minds of the ignorant.


----------



## eternal7trance

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Acefire*
> 
> Lol. You play me at any game you want @5600dpi and I will wipe the floor with you @ 800dpi. ANY GAME... ALL day.
> DPI that high is a gimmick to cloud the minds of the ignorant.


I could care less which has the highest DPI, I was just proving a point. Should look at the replies before making such a comment.


----------



## Versa

This is the 4th same topic by the same user about the same thing today, what's the deal?


----------



## Juganot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> The TOS spells it out. The burden lies on Razer to prove it doesnt. When they clearly state they collect personal info and share it with third parties, then theres obviously a big problem.


Completely wrong the burden of proof is on those who make the claims. YOU claim they are stealing information so YOU(or someone else) needs to prove this point. Otherwise all that is seen is a broad ToS that is made to massively protect Razer and their interests. (please note as mentioned before Razer's ToS doesn't protect them from breaking the laws)

Still I agree with the majority that the answer given by the CEO is nonsensical, they could easily make it so the software allows you to dump your macros locally without having to go online along with having a cloud service for convenience for those who travel a lot.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> I could care less which has the highest DPI, I was just proving a point. Should look at the replies before making such a comment.


Yes your comment was totally on point.

Do you have one as I ask before? If so I will PM you as we shouldn't clog the thread.


----------



## tpi2007

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Acefire*
> 
> Wow what SCAM OF A LIE response about memory space in a mouse. You can get 32gb microSD cards for cheap now, and I doubt that the data saved on these devices is more than mere kb's.


The CEO said it himself on his own Facebook page, it takes around 128 kb for a normal gamer and 1 megabyte for a hardcore gamer. Taking into consideration that 1 gigabyte of nand costs less than $ 1 nowadays, a figure ONE THOUSAND times less costs way less too.

*Bottom line is, the cloud service has absolutely no justification.* All the profiles you need could be stored on the mouse itself, and you could start using all the mouse's functions whether you had Internet access or not and edit the profiles whether you had Internet access or not.

People, wake up! Many companies are trying to feed you the cloud with second intentions! Remember the Cisco routers a few months ago ? What was that for ? You could only configure the router if you connected to the cloud. Lol. Completely non-sensical.

What worries me is that some less technically inclined people are buying into this "cloud" concept as if it's something revolutionary and the way of the future for everything, when 1. it really isn't the future _for everything_, as it's not needed for everything unless you make some bizarre and totally ridiculous excuse for it like Razer's CEO with his completely laughable argument about adding more memory increasing the price of the product, 2. people who have been accessing their Hotmail accounts since the late nineties either at home or on the school / university's computers have been enjoying cloud services all along, it's nothing new, really.


----------



## PCSarge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> As a razer naga user, this disturbs me.
> On one hand, I'm always connected to the internet so it wasn't an issue. I also loved the convenience of having my profile save on the cloud, thus making it so I don't have to reconfigure all my macros and whatnot whenever I reformat.
> But now this... spyware?
> Yea, when this mouse finally breaks I'll search for a different brand with as close to the same amount of buttons.


logitech G700


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PCSarge*
> 
> logitech G600


FTFY


----------



## PCSarge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> FTFY


lol i have both and a R.A.T 7, which i prefer over them, my hand feels more relaxed on my rat 7


----------



## eternal7trance

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Yes your comment was totally on point.
> Do you have one as I ask before? If so I will PM you as we shouldn't clog the thread.


I only have the regular naga molten.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PCSarge*
> 
> lol i have both and a R.A.T 7, which i prefer over them, my hand feels more relaxed on my rat 7


No no, the G600 is the one with the side pad, not the 700.


----------



## mtbiker033

wow totally amazing

I can't believe someone at Razer was like, yeah this is a GREAT idea, LET"S DO IT!!

This is probably the worst idea I have ever heard. I have never and will never own a razer product. My stepson bought one of their mice one time, let's just say it died a horrible death versus the concrete of my garage floor.....


----------



## prava

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stevevace2*
> 
> You guys really go crazy on this stuff
> All i see is an amazing convient software for pro gamers and gamers who dont always play in the same place


Convenient what?! Convenient would be to have the mouse have 4GB of onboard memory and use it as a pendrive. Want to have the mouse drivers available? Well, just use the mouse... that works as a pendrive when you need it.

And why is that a good idea?

a) It doesn't add any restriction of use.
b) It only adds new functionality.

On the other hand, a mouse requiring internet for a feature that only 0,0000000001% of the total userbase will ever have any use of it is.... lets say... USELESS? A mouse is a mouse is a mouse. Cloud storage is nice... unless you are REQUIRED to use internet for such a simple task as doing setup to your mouse.

And the fact that somebody support this...


----------



## Pip Boy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtbiker033*
> 
> let's just say it died a horrible death versus the concrete of my garage floor.....


The whole company is going to be doing that if this news spreads far and wide among the PC gaming community


----------



## Broseidon

I honestly am not surprised with the way Razer has been going lately (in other words, downhill). Don't get me wrong - my Deathadder works well, and ideally has been the best mouse I've ever used - but the Lycosa? Worst peripheral I have ever had the misfortune to use. In the future, I probably won't be buying Razer products until they get their act together. (Especially in light of this)


----------



## pratesh

Thats the dumbest thing I ever heard. Razer needs to realize that with companies like Mionix and Roccat on their tail, they need to get their **** together.


----------



## Juganot

I am hoping the CEO takes on the comments (hopefully someone from razer is actually seeing this thread seeing as it has been posted on the CEO's facebook) and comes to their senses and adds an offline option to synapse.


----------



## coupe

This is the most ridiculous interpretation of the reason why Razer needs the initial connectivity.


----------



## Puck

Thats terrible. Oh well, Logitech ftw.

Even my ~6 year old g5 rev2 still works great, and after a bit of a learning curve I am falling in love with my g9x.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juganot*
> 
> Completely wrong the burden of proof is on those who make the claims. YOU claim they are stealing information so YOU(or someone else) needs to prove this point. Otherwise all that is seen is a broad ToS that is made to massively protect Razer and their interests. (please note as mentioned before Razer's ToS doesn't protect them from breaking the laws)
> Still I agree with the majority that the answer given by the CEO is nonsensical, they could easily make it so the software allows you to dump your macros locally without having to go online along with having a cloud service for convenience for those who travel a lot.


When we're talking about large companies who's sole purpose is to rake in as much cash as possible, you have to assume the worst and hope for the best when their TOS has vague, shady-sounding clauses in it. If you don't, you're just setting yourself up to get burned.

Quote:


> *By using Razer Synapse 2.0 ("Synapse")*, the Subscriber agrees that *Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information*. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. *Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.*


Quote:


> *Collection, Storage and Use of Information*
> 
> "*aggregate information*" is information that describes the *habits, usage patterns, and demographics* of Subscribers as a group (which may include *computer system and device data*) but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular Subscriber.
> 
> "*individual information*" is information about a Subscriber (which may include computer system and device data) that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other Subscribers but not in a form that personally identifies any Subscriber or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any Subscriber unless agreed to by the Subscriber in advance of such communication.
> 
> "*personally identifiable information*" may consist of a *Subscriber's name, email address, physical address or other data about the Subscriber that enables the Subscriber to be personally identified*.


Nothing has to be proven. They tell you right in the TOS. If you agree to use Synapse, you agree to have quoted information gathered, including *HABITS* and *USAGE PATTERNS*, among other things, which will then be shared with 3rd parties.

Them getting your name, street address, email address, etc. from product registration is one thing, but they explicitly let you know that they will be monitoring what you're doing on your computer if you agree to the TOS.


----------



## snitchkilla11

i just bought a naga..and its bs..and when i startup my computer im met with 20seconds of wating for my mouse to load up to work..total crap..its going back asap


----------



## czin125

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> I could care less which has the highest DPI, I was just proving a point. Should look at the replies before making such a comment.


Can't you just use 1/7th the game sensitivity for the 5600 dpi to get the same results of the 800 dpi?


----------



## xartion

I'm happy that my Deathadder 3500 doesn't require this synapse software, at least with this mouse you can use the regular driver


----------



## ghostrider85

soon you cannot use your computer at all if you are not online! online requirement will gonna be implemented in every piece of hardware! *i see skynet coming!* hide yo wife hide yo kids!


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ghostrider85*
> 
> soon you cannot use your computer at all if you are not online! online requirement will gonna be implemented in every piece of hardware! *i see skynet coming!* hide yo wife hide yo kids!


I lolled.


----------



## Scorpion87

I'm sure someone will find a workaround for using the mouse with that software without that activation crap !


----------



## Carniflex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion87*
> 
> I'm sure someone will find a workaround for using the mouse with that software without that activation crap !


Why bother. There is plenty of good alternatives with the same functionality that don't spy after you. Only unique thing going for that mouse is actually that its looking over your shoulder 24/7 to see what you like.


----------



## formula m

Razer is doing all of this, because they don't want to put $11 worth of memory in your mouse.

That increases their profits, reduces manufacturing cost and makes it easier on them... also makes the CEo looks like a awesome dude.. but their product suffers. Thus Razer brand is tarnished. Razer brand is no longer in the game.. for the gamer, but for themselves... riding on a "once been/has beent" namesake now.

Heck..Level10 Mouse is better and moAr original than anything Razer has produced.


----------



## Thedark1337

welcome to Overclock.net, where the paranoia runs rampant. Is there anybody here with physical proof that they do data mining? I have been using this mouse just fine without any issues, I noticed the first synapse 2.0 driver for my mouse kept freezing but after the update it started not freezing again Although the TOS is vague, that doesn't mean that they will take your data, all it's used for is the ability to load your settings from anywhere with internet connection in the world. Is that not so hard to understand?


----------



## Carniflex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thedark1337*
> 
> welcome to Overclock.net, where the paranoia runs rampant. Is there anybody here with physical proof that they do data mining? I have been using this mouse just fine without any issues, I noticed the first synapse 2.0 driver for my mouse kept freezing but after the update it started not freezing again Although the TOS is vague, that doesn't mean that they will take your data, all it's used for is the ability to load your settings from anywhere with internet connection in the world. Is that not so hard to understand?


And they will need to share your information with third parties for "just loading your mouse settings"? Right.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Carniflex*
> 
> And they will need to share your information with third parties for "just loading your mouse settings"? Right.


Can you prove that they even do that now? The tos says the can not that they do.


----------



## Carniflex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Can you prove that they even do that now? The tos says the can not that they do.


Huh ?
Quote:


> Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Carniflex*
> 
> Huh ?


may =/= does


----------



## Mygaffer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Can you prove that they even do that now? The tos says the can not that they do.


If you read the current TOS it says they can share all non-personally identifiable information with third parties that they want, and that _most of the time_ they won't share personally identifiable information with third parties. There is definitely data mining going on. Of course data mining is happening on nearly ever OCN member's computer, most of us don't realize how prevalent it is.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mygaffer*
> 
> If you read the current TOS it says they can share all non-personally identifiable information with third parties that they want, and that _most of the time_ they won't share personally identifiable information with third parties. There is definitely data mining going on. Of course data mining is happening on nearly ever OCN member's computer, most of us don't realize how prevalent it is.


It says the can, and if they can they probably do, still, doesn't mean they sell your information illegally like all these tinfoilers think.


----------



## Thedark1337

Quote:


> Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.


Shall not share PERSONAL Identifiable Info.

Quote:


> Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties


notice how it says MAY and not WILL collect? Big difference right there. If they WILL do it then there is data mining, but if it is MAY, then that means that they might be data mining not actually doing it. Show me the proof that there is data being mined.


----------



## Carniflex

So if someone asks you to sign a contract that reads "I may take anything I want from you and you shall not object" you would happily sign it as hey, may is not equal to does .. that is until it is.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Carniflex*
> 
> So if someone asks you to sign a contract that reads "I may take anything I want from you and you shall not object" you would happily sign it as hey, may is not equal to does .. that is until it is.


If I was a multi millionaire and material possessions meant as much to me as what websites I view, then yes I would.


----------



## Carniflex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> If I was a multi millionaire and material possessions meant as much to me as what websites I view, then yes I would.


What difference there is of you own altogehter 100$ or multiple billions if after signing that contract you would end up at 0$ nevertheless if someone decided to take everything you own ?


----------



## Thedark1337

Money doesn't belong in an argument like this. There is no difference because even if you were rich you'd just click I agree just like the regular people.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Carniflex*
> 
> What difference there is of you own altogehter 100$ or multiple billions if after signing that contract you would end up at 0$ nevertheless if someone decided to take everything you own ?


If someone took everything I owned at this time but I possessed the ability to get it all back with measurable ease, I would gladly give it away dozens and dozens of times. Take off your tinfoil hat and realize you have in no way been harmed by the software and go on with your life christ.


----------



## Sh3ldor

You should all work in the xfiles, seriously so paranoid.
It is actually bordering on a condition for some of you here.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *formula m*
> 
> Razer is doing all of this, because they don't want to put $11 worth of memory in your mouse.
> 
> That increases their profits, reduces manufacturing cost and makes it easier on them... also makes the CEo looks like a awesome dude.. but their product suffers. Thus Razer brand is tarnished. Razer brand is no longer in the game.. for the gamer, but for themselves... riding on a "once been/has beent" namesake now.
> 
> Heck..Level10 Mouse is better and moAr original than anything Razer has produced.


Its not $11 worth of memory. The CEO stated gamers use about 128k to 1MB of data for profiles. Someone mentioned earlier that 1GB of nand costs about $1 or less to implement. Were talking 1/1000 of that. Pennies on the dollar. Razer must think their customers are idiots if they expect them to believe this was a feature implemented because of costs. Theyre selling $100 plastic mice, and a few cents worth of memory is too prohibitive of cost. Right...


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> *If someone took everything I owned at this time but I possessed the ability to get it all back with measurable ease, I would gladly give it away dozens and dozens of times.* Take off your tinfoil hat and realize you have in no way been harmed by the software and go on with your life christ.


I don't get it. Why would you do something like that? That sounds incredibly inconvenient, for no real benefit to yourself.

Given the choice between two equally performing products. I will always choose the one that doesn't pave the way to unnecessarily breach my right to privacy.


----------



## [email protected]

I don't know about you but i had this Mamba for 4 years now. No it's not the 2013 version or 4g.

I never knew anything about this and it really does affect my future build if i want a new mouse. Been considering one however.

This is quite disappointing. Is there really any evidence their software will harm our systems or take information as a background application? Certain this doesn't affect your gaming but taking private information off your system and browser is invasion of our privacy. I am sure you'll be secured no matter what by using Windows 8. Esepcially Windows 7, well 8 is more secure from what i heard but we're not talking about Win 8 here anyhow.

Is it worth the $ to get Razer products or not?

that's the question.

Unless i'm missing the big picture here.


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sh3ldor*
> 
> You should all work in the xfiles, seriously so paranoid.
> It is actually bordering on a condition for some of you here.


Well in the fantasy world of the X-Files. Moulder's paranoia was completely justified. So surely that correlates that our concerns are justified in the real world.


----------



## Sh3ldor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> Well *in the fantasy world* of the X-Files. Moulder's paranoia was completely justified. So surely that correlates that our concerns are justified in the real world.


Was getting at that.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> I don't get it. Why would you do something like that? That sounds incredibly inconvenient, for no real benefit to yourself.
> 
> Given the choice between two equally performing products. I will always choose the one that doesn't pave the way to unnecessarily breach my right to privacy.


The benefit being that I get to feel good about helping people less fortunate. the fact is his comparison is utterly ridiculous. If I wanted to find out what websites any of my repair clients used I could easily install loggers, fact is the information is worthless, unless you have something to hide.

Also, at the time I purchased my naga, there was no comparable product, and I really didn't like GW pvp with the keyboard for my skills. My entire guild agreed after they tried it. (Logitech's G600 didn't exist.)


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sh3ldor*
> 
> Was getting at that.


Spit it out man, what are you getting at?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> The benefit being that I get to feel good about helping people less fortunate. the fact is his comparison is utterly ridiculous. If I wanted to find out what websites any of my repair clients used I could easily install loggers, fact is the information is worthless, *unless you have something to hide.*
> Also, at the time I purchased my naga, there was no comparable product, and I really didn't like GW pvp with the keyboard for my skills. My entire guild agreed after they tried it. (Logitech's G600 didn't exist.)


Ah, the old "I have nothing to hide" argument. I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. You need to read a bit more on the subject I think.

http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sh3ldor*
> 
> You should all work in the xfiles, seriously so paranoid.
> It is actually bordering on a condition for some of you here.


Its not about being paranoid. Its about calling a company out on its wrong doing.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> If I wanted to find out what websites any of my repair clients used I could easily install loggers, fact is the information is worthless, unless you have something to hide.


I would hope you wouldnt do that to your customers.

Anyways, that information is far from worthless in the right hands which is why marketing firms pay big for it. Customer information and profiling is big business.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> I would hope you wouldnt do that to your customers.
> Anyways, that information is far from worthless in the right hands which is why marketing firms pay big for it. Customer information and profiling is big business.


Of course I wouldn't without their consent. I do however monitor the internet usage at my school with consent from the users and our system does record every website viewed and all of them go into the report.

Why does everyone have such a problem with it? I am seriously so ok with every website I go to that I'd willingly post them in public if asked to for a reason. I am who I am and I have nothing to hide. If a marketing firm wants my non personal information.

Things that scare me are 7970 CFX rigs that make passwords utterly useless and stuff like that. That I'm not down with, but what sites I view? Please.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Of course I wouldn't without their consent. I do however monitor the internet usage at my school with consent from the users and our system does record every website viewed and all of them go into the report.
> Why does everyone have such a problem with it? I am seriously so ok with every website I go to that I'd willingly post them in public if asked to for a reason. I am who I am and I have nothing to hide. If a marketing firm wants my non personal information.
> Things that scare me are 7970 CFX rigs that make passwords utterly useless and stuff like that. That I'm not down with, but what sites I view? Please.


Its not about having nothing to hide. I dont understand why youre ok with big corporations knowing everything you and what you do? Would you let someone you didnt know install cameras in your house to watch you? They have no business or right to this information unless I voluntarily provide it to them.

How many times have big businesses been the subject of major security breeches anyways?

Not to sound like the tin foil hat wearing person, but we've gotten to the point where companies can buy info on anyone they want to find out about. Imagine being declined a promotion because your boss ran a background check and found you visited a different political parties site than they support.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> Its not about having nothing to hide. I dont understand why youre ok with big corporations knowing everything you and what you do? Would you let someone you didnt know install cameras in your house to watch you? They have no business or right to this information unless I voluntarily provide it to them.
> How many times have big businesses been the subject of major security breeches anyways?
> Not to sound like the tin foil hat wearing person, but we've gotten to the point where companies can buy info on anyone they want to find out about. Imagine being declined a promotion because your boss ran a background check and found you visited a different political parties site than they support.


well that'd be illegal where I live so if that knowledge was public I'd have grounds for a lawsuit.

Im ok with companies knowing my websites, anyone can get that information really easily. I have bigger things in my life to worry about.


----------



## [email protected]

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> Well in the fantasy world of the X-Files. Moulder's paranoia was completely justified. So surely that correlates that our concerns are justified in the real world.


It's Mulder. Shame on you! You should know better


----------



## Jackeduphard

SO glad i got rid of my razor .. lolz


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Of course I wouldn't without their consent. I do however monitor the internet usage *at my school* with consent from the users and our system does record every website viewed and all of them go into the report.
> Why does everyone have such a problem with it? I am seriously so ok with every website I go to that I'd willingly post them in public if asked to for a reason. I am who I am and I have nothing to hide. If a marketing firm wants my non personal information.
> Things that scare me are 7970 CFX rigs that make passwords utterly useless and stuff like that. That I'm not down with, but what sites I view? Please.


A public place does not equal the privacy of your own home.

If some total stranger invades your personal space, and has their head 3 inches from your own. While that person may not be doing anything necessarily wrong. You might just be having a boring conversation about the weather. You might have perfect skin, so "you have nothing to hide". But that does not mean this breach of your personal space, does not make you feel anxious or uncomfortable.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> A public place does not equal the privacy of your own home.
> If some total stranger invades your personal space, and has their head 3 inches from your own. While that person may not be doing anything necessarily wrong. You might just be having a boring conversation about the weather. You might have perfect skin, so "you have nothing to hide". But that does not mean this breach of your personal space, does not make you feel anxious or uncomfortable.


Stop making invalid analogies. That's not the case here. You can keep trying to spin it to be something else but its not, its websites...


----------



## Mootsfox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sikozu*
> 
> From his facebook in reply to my message;
> https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan


I'm impressed he took the time to reply.


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Stop making invalid analogies. That's not the case here. You can keep trying to spin it to be something else but its not, its websites...


Stop being so dismissive. Its an invasion of your basic human right to privacy....

Again, I urge you to read this website.

http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/


----------



## Carniflex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Stop making invalid analogies. That's not the case here. You can keep trying to spin it to be something else but its not, its websites...


Its obvious that you have "nothing to hide" and you are the true believer, however, I'm from the former soviet union and I care a lot what information goverment, some agencies or some companies have out there about me. I remember when I was going to elementary school how my grandmother told me what I can say and what I cant say in the school telling me that if I say wrong things then KGB will come and take us all away at night like it happened to her family. With all the information out there its only a matter of time until it ends up in malicious hands a 'la Sony "oops there went our credit card records". If one day crap happens and some crazy dictator ends up at helm I don't want to be shot bcos I think "the wrong way", whatever the right way happens to be at that day.

So you have nothing to hide, share willingly your private details on public forums and do all other nice things, but I do have something to hide so I'm not going to use Razer products in the future as there is plenty of alternatives. I do know that privacy is an illusion with google, facebook, microsoft and the other companies firmly pursuing the "big data" philosophy, however, I can at least try to limit my exposure to some extent. Privacy is not about hiding bad things, its more about being able to not to be watched in your own home.


----------



## TerminatorXPS15

Good thing I still have my old BlackWidow and DeathAdder Black...


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Carniflex*
> 
> Its obvious that you have "nothing to hide" and you are the true believer, however, I'm from the former soviet union and I care a lot what information goverment, some agencies or some companies have out there about me. I remember when I was going to elementary school how my grandmother told me what I can say and what I cant say in the school telling me that if I say wrong things then KGB will come and take us all away at night like it happened to her family. With all the information out there its only a matter of time until it ends up in malicious hands a 'la Sony "oops there went our credit card records". If one day crap happens and some crazy dictator ends up at helm I don't want to be shot bcos I think "the wrong way", whatever the right way happens to be at that day.
> So you have nothing to hide, share willingly your private details on public forums and do all other nice things, but I do have something to hide so I'm not going to use Razer products in the future as there is plenty of alternatives. I do know that privacy is an illusion with google, facebook, microsoft and the other companies firmly pursuing the "big data" philosophy, however, *I can at least try to limit my exposure to some extent.* Privacy is not about hiding bad things, its more about being able to not to be watched in your own home.


Collusion and Ghostery, for the win.

Oh and Google Analytics Opt-out.


----------



## Padishah

Logitech does the same thing with there software

13. You agree that Logitech and its subsidiaries and agents may collect, maintain, process and use diagnostic, technical and related information, including but not limited to information about your Logitech product, computer, system and application software, peripherals and other related devices, that is gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, product support and other services to you (if any) related to the Logitech software, and to verify compliance with the terms of this agreement. Logitech may use this information, as long as it is in a form that does not personally identify you, to improve our products or to provide services to you.
The Software is protected by United States copyright law and international treaty. Unauthorized reproduction or distribution of the Software is subject to civil and criminal penalties.


----------



## Carniflex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Padishah*
> 
> Logitech does the same thing with there software
> 13. You agree that Logitech and its subsidiaries and agents may collect, maintain, process and use diagnostic, technical and related information, including but not limited to information about your Logitech product, computer, system and application software, peripherals and other related devices, that is gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, product support and other services to you (if any) related to the Logitech software, and to verify compliance with the terms of this agreement. Logitech may use this information, *as long as it is in a form that does not personally identify you*, to improve our products or to provide services to you.
> The Software is protected by United States copyright law and international treaty. Unauthorized reproduction or distribution of the Software is subject to civil and criminal penalties.


Highlighted the different part.


----------



## Padishah

By using Razer Synapse 2.0 ("Synapse"), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties*. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties*, except as described in the policy below.


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Padishah*
> 
> By using Razer Synapse 2.0 ("Synapse"), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, *except as described in the policy below.*


Quote:


> Collection of personally identifiable information may be out-sourced to associates under agreement with Razer. These associates may adhere to their own set of privacy policies.


----------



## charlesquik

This my friend is the hunger for wealth , fame and fortune. All company turn out like this if they are successful. This is capitalism


----------



## Arizonian

Pretty sad really. The new Razer Ouroboros Wireless MMO & Taipan FPS gaming mouse are being reviewed as solid mice. My Mamba after two years has been handed to my kids and still going strong. I'm going to bet the new Death Adder 4G will be as solid with it's upgrade as any other Death Adder that a lot of us have grown to love. All these good products will be held back solely on a software level due their consumers being forced into cloud.

_At the very least_ give an option for both cloud OR local storage without restricting the use of the mouse features that I already paid for. Features that should come included with a mouse like drivers and software. I shouldn't have to give up my privacy for full functionality and if so then my purchase will react accordingly which is my consumer choice.

Like myself the consensus amongst actual Razer owners who do like Razer mice are almost unanimous. We feel this is disturbing which may or will change future purchases. I have a strong feeling weak or dip in sales might reverse this bad marketing decision.

I see a lot of already Razer haters took the opportunity to chime in even though their already drew their conclusions about Razer prior to this news.







If they're e already not purchasing Razer products I don't see how this will have any effect on Razer.









However I fear like myself those who would purchase another Razer mouse will not and that counts. What's the world coming to? Buy a toaster only if you agree to accept solicitations from mail lists?


----------



## Kaldari

I find it funny that people keep asking for proof about whether or not they share specific information with 3rd parties. The fact that they're even just *collecting* it in the first place should be enough, but they go on to say that they will share *habits* and *usage patterns* among other things. Why do you people keep asking for proof when they give it to you?

I've posted this before, but it's as if some of you refuse to acknowledge what they tell you in black and white on their website. I'll snip it down in case a few paragraphs is too much.

Quote:


> *Razer may share aggregate information* and *individual information* with other parties. Razer shall not share *personally identifiable information* with other parties, *except as described in the policy below*.


For people with reading comprehension problems who want to use the "Razer shall not share" portion as some kind of proof that they don't mine and share personal data, let's spell things out. They explicitly say that they share *aggregate information* and *individual information*. They never say they "shall not" share either of those. They do share it. The end. The only one they say they "shall not" share is the personally identifiable information that they mine, but they add the clause *except as described in the policy below*.

Now again.. they definitely do, according to their own words, share aggregate and individual information. Let's review what those two are.

Quote:


> *Collection, Storage and Use of Information*
> 
> *"aggregate information"* is information that describes the *habits, usage patterns**, and demographics* of Subscribers as a group (which may include computer system and device data) but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular Subscriber.
> 
> *"individual information"* is information about a Subscriber (which may include computer system and device data) that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other Subscribers but not in a form that personally identifies any Subscriber or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any Subscriber unless agreed to by the Subscriber in advance of such communication.
> 
> *"personally identifiable information"* may consist of a Subscriber's name, email address, physical address or other data about the Subscriber that enables the Subscriber to be personally identified.


They say they don't share "personally identifiable information" as readily, but the fact that they're even obtaining it in the first place should be enough for anyone. Even if you omit anything regarding "personally identifiable information", they still completely admit to gathering *habits* and *usage patterns* when you use their *peripheral software*.

How can some of you not see anything wrong with that? I don't want my mouse software gathering anything about what I'm doing. For people arguing it just gathers mouse settings are fooling themselves in the face of what I just said.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> Pretty sad really. The new Razer Ouroboros Wireless MMO & Taipan FPS gaming mouse are being reviewed as solid mice. My Mamba after two years has been handed to my kids and still going strong. I'm going to bet the new Death Adder 4G will be as solid with it's upgrade as any other Death Adder that a lot of us have grown to love. All these good products will be held back solely on a software level due their consumers being forced into cloud.
> _At the very least_ give an option for both cloud OR local storage without restricting the use of the mouse features that I already paid for. Features that should come included with a mouse like drivers and software. I shouldn't have to give up my privacy for full functionality and if so then my purchase will react accordingly which is my consumer choice.
> Like myself the consensus amongst actual Razer owners who do like Razer mice are almost unanimous. We feel this is disturbing which may or will change future purchases. I have a strong feeling weak or dip in sales might reverse this bad marketing decision.
> I see a lot of already Razer haters took the opportunity to chime in even though their already drew their conclusions about Razer prior to this news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they're e already not purchasing Razer products I don't see how this will have any effect on Razer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However I fear like myself those who would purchase another Razer mouse will not and that counts. What's the world coming to? Buy a toaster only if you agree to accept solicitations from mail lists?


Im in the same boat as you. I didnt hate Razer before this happened, otherwise I wouldnt have bought the Naga. My first mouse I bought was a Razer Diamondback and I loved it. Still have it today.
And regarding the Naga 2012 mouse, I actually really liked the feel and design of it. But I wont put up with a company forcing me into an online only driver suite that watches what I do and sells my info, and because of that I returned the mouse which is a shame.

According to another user who contacted Razer, they plan to implement Synapse 2.0 into all the previous mice replacing the stand alone offline drivers, and all future Razer products will have Synapse 2.0 as the only option.


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> Im in the same boat as you. I didnt hate Razer before this happened, otherwise I wouldnt have bought the Naga. My first mouse I bought was a Razer Diamondback and I loved it. Still have it today.
> And regarding the Naga 2012 mouse, I actually really liked the feel and design of it. But I wont put up with a company forcing me into an online only driver suite that watches what I do and sells my info, and because of that I returned the mouse which is a shame.
> According to another user who contacted Razer, they plan to implement Synapse 2.0 into all the previous mice replacing the stand alone offline drivers, and all future Razer products will have Synapse 2.0 as the only option.


I never said I hated them....just not interested in being forced into the cloud for mouse functions.


----------



## UNOE

This is really bad .... :facepalm:


----------



## Brutuz

Razer over-price their products to a point where even Apple is jealous, and the quality is utter crap too. I had two Lycosas that died without any help from me (They started spamming a key until I pressed something else, then that key wouldn't work unless I unplugged the keyboard then plugged it backin), seriously at this point if you're still using Razer's crappy, low-end products you kinda deserve it, the only thing I relaly give them credit for is the Deathadder and making mechanical keyboards hit the mainstream.

Want a gaming keyboard? CM, Corsair, Ducky (My Ducky Shine was great for gaming), etc mechanical otherwise just get any cheap condom keyboard. Mouse? Steelseries, Logitech, Saitek, CM, Corsair and the billions of other brands. Nothing else Razer makes is really worth much of a mention to be honest, maybe the 360 controllers but who here is going to have one?


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> Stop being so dismissive. Its an invasion of your basic human right to privacy....
> Again, I urge you to read this website.
> http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/


I will not read an article about something I could care less about. As long as people can't represent themselves as me online, I don't care what truthful things about me are out in the world.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Carniflex*
> 
> Its obvious that you have "nothing to hide" and you are the true believer, however, I'm from the former soviet union and I care a lot what information goverment, some agencies or some companies have out there about me. I remember when I was going to elementary school how my grandmother told me what I can say and what I cant say in the school telling me that if I say wrong things then KGB will come and take us all away at night like it happened to her family. With all the information out there its only a matter of time until it ends up in malicious hands a 'la Sony "oops there went our credit card records". If one day crap happens and some crazy dictator ends up at helm I don't want to be shot bcos I think "the wrong way", whatever the right way happens to be at that day.
> So you have nothing to hide, share willingly your private details on public forums and do all other nice things, but I do have something to hide so I'm not going to use Razer products in the future as there is plenty of alternatives. I do know that privacy is an illusion with google, facebook, microsoft and the other companies firmly pursuing the "big data" philosophy, however, I can at least try to limit my exposure to some extent. Privacy is not about hiding bad things, its more about being able to not to be watched in your own home.


If you have something to hide then it is your right to do so, and not wanting people to fish for your information totally makes sense. Also Im glad you agree that this is at worst comparable to google, facebook, myspace, and many other things.


----------



## azianai

i wonder if the people that are all up in arms about this don't use Facebook, youtube, gmail, credit cards, etc.
Cause google/FB/CC companies all sell your information back and forth

Get a credit report run on you (you can get these for free once a year), you'll be interested how many different companies request credit information on you that you don't deal with (i know Discover/Amex/Honda have asked for my credit rating), especially those you don't do business with.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> I will not read an article about something I could care less about. As long as people can't represent themselves as me online, I don't care what truthful things about me are out in the world.
> If you have something to hide then it is your right to do so, and not wanting people to fish for your information totally makes sense. Also Im glad you agree that this is at worst comparable to google, facebook, myspace, and many other things.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *azianai*
> 
> i wonder if the people that are all up in arms about this don't use Facebook, youtube, gmail, credit cards, etc.
> Cause google/FB/CC companies all sell your information back and forth
> Get a credit report run on you (you can get these for free once a year), you'll be interested how many different companies request credit information on you that you don't deal with (i know Discover/Amex/Honda have asked for my credit rating), especially those you don't do business with.


So now the argument has gone from "show me proof" to "well they aren't the only ones" and "I don't have anything to hide."

As for credit inquiries, I get my credit reports yearly, and I've never seen an inquiry that didn't pertain to something I was doing. They either relate to screening for a loan or are reviewed to see whether or not a deposit is required for a service (ie. cell phone contract, storage, leases, etc.)

If you see an inquiry not related to anything you've been doing or authorized, then there's a problem somewhere. I would suggest digging into the matter and watching to make sure new loans don't get taken out in your name.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> *So now the argument has gone from "show me proof" to "well they aren't the only ones" and "I don't have anything to hide."*
> As for credit inquiries, I get my credit reports yearly, and I've never seen an inquiry that didn't pertain to something I was doing. They either relate to screening for a loan or are reviewed to see whether or not a deposit is required for a service (ie. cell phone contract, storage, leases, etc.)
> If you see an inquiry not related to anything you've been doing or authorized, then there's a problem somewhere. I would suggest digging into the matter and watching to make sure new loans don't get taken out in your name.


Well I already won the "show me the proof point" but people refused to admit they were wrong.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Well I already won the "show me the proof point" but people refused to admit they were wrong.


Go to post 245 in this thread (not very far above you). You've done no such thing. Razer gives you the proof. Choosing to not accept it is irrelevant.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> I find it funny that people keep asking for proof about whether or not they share specific information with 3rd parties. The fact that they're even just *collecting* it in the first place should be enough, but they go on to say that they will share *habits* and *usage patterns* among other things. Why do you people keep asking for proof when they give it to you?
> I've posted this before, but it's as if some of you refuse to acknowledge what they tell you in black and white on their website. I'll snip it down in case a few paragraphs is too much.
> For people with reading comprehension problems who want to use the "Razer shall not share" portion as some kind of proof that they don't mine and share personal data, let's spell things out. They explicitly say that they share *aggregate information* and *individual information*. They never say they "shall not" share either of those. They do share it. The end. The only one they say they "shall not" share is the personally identifiable information that they mine, but they add the clause *except as described in the policy below*.
> Now again.. they definitely do, according to their own words, share aggregate and individual information. Let's review what those two are.
> They say they don't share "personally identifiable information" as readily, but the fact that they're even obtaining it in the first place should be enough for anyone. Even if you omit anything regarding "personally identifiable information", they still completely admit to gathering *habits* and *usage patterns* when you use their *peripheral software*.
> How can some of you not see anything wrong with that? I don't want my mouse software gathering anything about what I'm doing. For people arguing it just gathers mouse settings are fooling themselves in the face of what I just said.


in what universe does this prove anything? You're just cherry picking quotes from something and attempting to sound sophisticated and win an argument with someone who really doesn't care tbh.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> in what universe does this prove anything? You're just cherry picking quotes from something and attempting to sound sophisticated and win an argument with someone who really doesn't care tbh.


I posted a lengthier version before, but whether the version is long or short doesn't matter in the slightest. Tell me where I'm taking anything out of context. Instead of telling me I'm "attempting to sound sohpisticated", why don't you tell me what's wrong with it?

There's nothing to debate. They tell you explicitly what they collect, and it's far more than "mouse settings."


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> I posted a lengthier version before, but whether the version is long or short doesn't matter in the slightest. Tell me where I'm taking anything out of context. Instead of telling me I'm "attempting to sound sohpisticated", why don't you tell me what's wrong what it?
> There's nothing to debate. They tell you explicitly what they collect.


You're taking a vague statement, and saying its right there. They don't explicitly tell you anything... You read into things way too far and can't prove it...


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> You're taking a vague statement, and saying its right there. They don't explicitly tell you anything... You read into things way too far and can't prove it...


It should be pretty obvious to anyone reading your responses that you're well beyond accepting what Razer themselves tell you.

The short of it: They tell you explicitly that they collect and share "aggregate information." Within their own definition of what "aggregate information" is, they say verbatim that this includes "habits and usage patterns."

Tell me where I'm twisting anything. You can't. You just keep spewing nonsense.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> It should be pretty obvious to anyone reading your responses that you're well beyond accepting what Razer themselves tell you.
> The short of it: They tell you explicitly that they collect and share "aggregate information." Within their own definition of what "aggregate information" is, they say verbatim that this includes "habits and usage patterns."
> Tell me where I'm twisting anything. You can't. You just keep spewing nonsense.




In what universe good sir is that specific enough to determine what information razer

*MIGHT*

be taking from you.

Seeing as you've yet to provide that you personally or anyone personally in this thread has actually had information taken from them or any such nonsense, you're all just tinfoilers that probably think aliens can read our brains too. Im not the one spewing nonsense just like I wasn't the one that made huge generic statements about people yesterday. If you're this sensitive about information about you getting out the internet might not be the place for you...


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> 
> In what universe good sir is that specific enough to determine what information razer
> *MIGHT*
> be taking from you.
> Seeing as you've yet to provide that you personally or anyone personally in this thread has actually had information taken from them or any such nonsense, you're all just tinfoilers that probably think aliens can read our brains too. Im not the one spewing nonsense just like I wasn't the one that made huge generic statements about people yesterday. If you're this sensitive about information about you getting out the internet might not be the place for you...


The point is that they're obtaining far more than mouse settings as so many people, including yourself, wanted to argue in this thread up until they had facts presented right in front of their face because they don't have innitiative to read anything themselves.

They didn't add such clauses into their TOS by sheer accident. Besides that, there's no "might" about whether or not they record and share habits and usage patterns. You can make "might" as big and bold as you want, they tell you they do. There's no reason for them to be syncing anything more than mouse settings. They do. They say they do. End of story.

Don't try to lump me with tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy theorists. I know you like to build straw men and ride on their shoulders, but you obviously present more personal attacks than anything else. You sure do fight fervently for things you admittedly "could care less about."

*edit*:

Oh, and pulling the definition of "aggregate" out of the dictionary is irrelevant when they define it themselves in their TOS. They add the very things to that definition that I keep mentioning. Again, building straw men in the face of black and white text on their own website.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> The point is that they're obtaining far more than mouse settings, as so many people wanted to argue in this thread up until they had facts presented right in front of their face because they don't have innitiative to read anything themselves.
> They didn't such clauses into their TOS by sheer accident. Besides that, there's no "might" about whether or not they record and share habits and usage patterns. You can make "might" as bit and bold as you want, they tell you they do. There's no reason for them to by syncing anything more than mouse settings. They do.
> Don't try to lump me with tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy theorists. I know you like to build straw men and ride on their shoulders, but you obviously present more personal attacks than anything else. You sure do fight fervently for things you admittedly "could care less about."





Spoiler: How this works:







Im just saying theres no need to be this paranoid about it... its normal to fear change and be skeptical of it but posting vague information and claiming "it makes perfect sense and is the devil" is a lil insane don't you think?

I don't care what information is taken from my rig. I stopped caring as soon as I plugged the RJ45 jack into my motherboard.

You made this personal when you said _I was spewing nonsense_. Which in no way am I doing. I'm also not familiar with the straw men analogy.

Fact still remains, in all seriousness, if you have this much stuff to hide or are this attached to privacy the internet is really not for you.


----------



## Monstrous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> I don't care what information is taken from my rig. I stopped caring as soon as I plugged the RJ45 jack into my motherboard.


This.

I don't sell heroin to children or traffic slaves using my PC so I couldn't care less if people see what I do on it. I mean, if Razer pass on some info that leads to targeted advertising and people try to sell me things I might actually want to buy, it would literally be the end of the damn world wouldn't it? Could not care less. In fact if you guys want I'll set up a constant video/sound stream so you can see what I'm doing on my PC for the rest of the time I own it. That's how little I care, and I have no idea why anyone would. Unless you were selling drugs to children. Drugs are bad, M'kay?


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: How this works:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im just saying theres no need to be this paranoid about it... its normal to fear change and be skeptical of it but posting vague information and claiming "it makes perfect sense and is the devil" is a lil insane don't you think?
> I don't care what information is taken from my rig. I stopped caring as soon as I plugged the RJ45 jack into my motherboard.
> You made this personal when you said _I was spewing nonsense_. Which in no way am I doing. I'm also not familiar with the straw men analogy.
> Fact still remains, in all seriousness, if you have this much stuff to hide or are this attached to privacy the internet is really not for you.


The nonsense I said that you were spewing was when, over the course of two posts, you accuse me of cherry picking vague statements and saying that I was "attempting to sound sophisticated and win an argument." You even used the word "vague" again in this very post. Nothing I'm saying is vague. The cloud service is for backing up mouse settings, and they tell you very clearly that they parse and share more than that. There isn't anything vague about that.

All of that was indeed nonsense. Everything I have said is spelled out letter for letter. None of it is vague. I guess I'll just take the sophistication bit as a compliment.

That's fantastic that you have nothing to hide and don't care who collects and shares information about you. I fail to see what that has to do with anyone else.

*edit*:

For people who only read the first and last pages of threads: 245 and 258


----------



## seepra

I don't even care about the TOS, but making the online activation mandatory is idiotic, blaming it on expensive 1MB flash memory plain stupidity and underestimating consumer intellect. I would rather have people not make a fuss about the TOS and make Razer mice work without any mandatory online activation, I have about 3TB of HDD space and my mouse can gladly use few MB off that to store profiles..







If they think forcing the cloud on a very simple feature like this is somehow beneficial, *especially* if it disables features from the product I've already bought.

Anyway, not buying Razer mice before they work genuinely plug and play with all the features again.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> The nonsense I said that you were spewing was when, over the course of two posts, you accuse me of cherry picking vague statements and saying that I was "attempting to sound sophisticated and win an argument." You even used the word "vague" again in this very post. Nothing I'm saying is vague. The cloud service is for backing up mouse settings, and they tell you very clearly that they parse and share more than that. There isn't anything vague about that.
> All of that was indeed nonsense. Everything I have said is spelled out letter for letter. None of it is vague. I guess I'll just take the sophistication bit as a compliment.
> That's fantastic that you have nothing to hide and don't care who collects and shares information about you. I fail to see what that has to do with anyone else.


The word aggregate is freaking vague for gods sake! There's plenty of vague about it. You should it was intended as its working. Its not like they say "we're taking your viewing history." or "our software reports what games you have installed" which gamebooster actually does.

I fail to see why you being so paranoid about your computer security has anything to do with anyone else either. Again, why be afraid? Embrace.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Monstrous*
> 
> This.
> I don't sell heroin to children or traffic slaves using my PC so I couldn't care less if people see what I do on it. I mean, if Razer pass on some info that leads to targeted advertising and people try to sell me things I might actually want to buy, it would literally be the end of the damn world wouldn't it? Could not care less. In fact if you guys want I'll set up a constant video/sound stream so you can see what I'm doing on my PC for the rest of the time I own it. That's how little I care, and I have no idea why anyone would. Unless you were selling drugs to children. Drugs are bad, M'kay?


Why are you ok with a corporation constantly watching you? Its not about whether or not you have anything to hide. They have the ability to collect personal information they have no business to.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> The word aggregate is freaking vague for gods sake! There's plenty of vague about it. You should it was intended as its working. Its not like they say "we're taking your viewing history." or "our software reports what games you have installed" which gamebooster actually does.
> I fail to see why you being so paranoid about your computer security has anything to do with anyone else either. Again, why be afraid? Embrace.


Be honest, I see the Razer logos all over your monitors. Did they ask you to come here and try to defend them or are they sponsoring you in some way?


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> The word aggregate is freaking vague for gods sake! There's plenty of vague about it. You should it was intended as its working. Its not like they say "we're taking your viewing history." or "our software reports what games you have installed" which gamebooster actually does.
> I fail to see why you being so paranoid about your computer security has anything to do with anyone else either. Again, why be afraid? Embrace.


Do not confuse defending my right to privacy with being afraid.

The fact that the word "aggregate" is vague, or a blanket statement, should be more worrisome, not less. Beside the actual Mariam-Webster definition of the word, as I said, they go on to further add to their own definition of the term "aggregate information" in their TOS as including "habits" and "usage patterns". Again, quoting the dictionary isn't relevant when they expand upon it within their document.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> Why are you ok with a corporation constantly watching you? Its not about whether or not you have anything to hide. They have the ability to collect personal information they have no business to.


Do you know how many cameras I walk by each day that record my face, my voice, and more? Every day to go into our shop I have to sign a sheet that gets scanned and emailed off, effectively creating a digital copy of my signature. There are so many more things to be worried about in this day and age like identity theft, organized crime, murder, assassination, car accidents, economic fraud, etc, etc but my browser history! that's too far. No. I'm certain everyone in this thread has something more to worry about.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> Do not confuse defending my right to privacy with being afraid.
> The fact that the word "aggregate" is vague, or a blanket statement, should be more worrisome, not less. Beside the actual Mariam-Webster of the word, as I said, they go on to further add to their own definite of the term "aggregate information" in their TOS as including "habits" and "usage patterns". Again, quoting the dictionary isn't relevant when they expand upon it within their document.


Habbits and usage patterns, still vague. Usage of the mouse, usage of the keys, usage of pornographic sites to determine what gets your mojo going?

Yes in this instance I am being ridiculous. If you answer me one question exact detail I'll leave the thread and just call it a day:

What information could they want and why?

don't say "personal information" or anything like that. Something like "my viewing history to determine what sites I like and what I view to sell this information to create more efficiency in the ads I see"

Now if that isn't ridiculous I don't know what is.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Habbits and usage patterns, still vague. Usage of the mouse, usage of the keys, usage of pornographic sites to determine what gets your mojo going?
> Yes in this instance I am being ridiculous. If you answer me one question exact detail I'll leave the thread and just call it a day:
> What information could they want and why?
> don't say "personal information" or anything like that. Something like "my viewing history to determine what sites I like and what I view to sell this information to create more efficiency in the ads I see"
> Now if that isn't ridiculous I don't know what is.


If you don't know what information they could possibly want, you clearly know nothing about internet marketing or how valuable such information is, especially when dealing with such a wide user-base that Razer has.

Again, the fact that they don't list a couple benign details in their own definition of what "aggregate information" is should be more worrisome, not less. I highly, highly doubt they're just sharing which keystrokes you use the most with their partners and people they sell this information to. Let's be real here.

You're using "vague" too loosely, covering multiple things. My explanation that they collect more than mouse settings is in no way vague. The Mariam-Webster definition of the word "aggregate" might be vague, but they go on to expand on that definition in the TOS.

There's very little vagueness here.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> If you don't know what information they could possibly want, you clearly know nothing about internet marketing or how valuable such information is, especially when dealing with such a wide user-base that Razer has.
> Again, the fact that they don't list a couple benign details in their own definition of what "aggregate information" is should be more worrisome, not less. I highly, highly doubt they're just sharing which keystrokes you use the most with their partners and people they sell this information to. Let's be real here.


I don't know anything about internet marketing I'm a machinist. You don't know that they are taking information or even if they are, the option is there.

Lets be real here and admit you don't know anything about it either. You're just worried about your privacy, where as I want the added features, thats the entire difference here.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> I don't know anything about internet marketing I'm a machinist. You don't know that they are taking information or even if they are, the option is there.
> Lets be real here and admit you don't know anything about it either. You're just worried about your privacy, where as I want the added features, thats the entire difference here.










And here I thought we were making progress.









I know plenty about internet marketing and know exactly what information they would want. It's actually how I make my living. I can absolutely guarantee they aren't just accruing benign statistics about how often you hit the letter "N" or how many times you clicked the Start menu last month.

As for me being worried about my privacy as opposed to you wanting more features, when have I ever stated otherwise? Of course that's the case.


----------



## Monstrous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> Why are you ok with a corporation constantly watching you? Its not about whether or not you have anything to hide. They have the ability to collect personal information they have no business to.


Because it provides no downside to me in any way, shape or form, yet provides me with the upside of being able to keep my mouse/keyboard macros and settings when I change computers by just logging in. Their 'watching me' does nothing to affect my life at all.

Why would I care that a corporation is collecting data on me? If you exist, there is a company collecting data on you. They have the right to do what they do when I accept the TOS.

The same way the iTunes TOS has no downside to me, and the upside that I am able to use the program for sorting music on my iPhone. Sure, I can't use the software for co-ordinating a nuclear attack since I accepted the TOS, but I'm happy to abide by that rule.


----------



## Riou

Aren't there already mice that have onboard memory to save mouse settings? Having a cloud implementation is needlessly elaborate. What if you use the same mouse in Linux?


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Monstrous*
> 
> Because it provides no downside to me in any way, shape or form, yet provides me with the upside of being able to keep my mouse/keyboard macros and settings when I change computers by just logging in. Their 'watching me' does nothing to affect my life at all.
> Why would I care that a corporation is collecting data on me? If you exist, there is a company collecting data on you. They have the right to do what they do when I accept the TOS.
> The same way the iTunes TOS has no downside to me, and the upside that I am able to use the program for sorting music on my iPhone. Sure, I can't use the software for co-ordinating a nuclear attack since I accepted the TOS, but I'm happy to abide by that rule.


Apparently you are ok with not having any privacy in your own home and are willing to sacrifice that along with your rights in exchange for entertainment. However I'd hope you could at least appreciate the fact and somehow see that other people would consider this a major issue


----------



## seepra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Riou*
> 
> Aren't there already mice that have onboard memory to save mouse settings? Having a cloud implementation is needlessly elaborate. What if you use the same mouse in Linux?


Bet the mouse will burst in flames if you do that. In all seriousness though, that's another great point as to why forcing the cloud is more of a gimmick than a handy feature. Sure it's a nice extra, but making it mandatory is not wise or necessary. If you plug it into Linux, it will likely just be a PnP-mouse with no adjustments whatsoever. But hey, at least you don't have to accept their TOS then


----------



## SwitchFX

In other new, Logitech suspects their Q4 2012 sales will double for their mice.


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> I will not read an article about something I could care less about. As long as people can't represent themselves as me online, I don't care what truthful things about me are out in the world.


You are an incredibly foolish human being. I pity you, I really do.
Quote:


> If you have something to hide then it is your right to do so, and not wanting people to fish for your information totally makes sense. Also Im glad you agree that this is at worst comparable to google, facebook, myspace, and many other things.


Privacy has very little to do with sexual deviancy, or illegal activity. This is the simple fact that you fail to comprehend. You are trying to argue a case, on a subject. By your own admission, you know nothing about, or care to learn about.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> I don't know anything about internet marketing I'm a machinist. You don't know that they are taking information or even if they are, the option is there.
> Lets be real here and admit you don't know anything about it either. You're just worried about your privacy, where as I want the added features, thats the entire difference here.


What added features exactly?


----------



## Sn0

I don't think anyone here will buy a RAZER product if it's gonna be like that.


----------



## prava

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> 
> In what universe good sir is that specific enough to determine what information razer
> *MIGHT*
> be taking from you.
> Seeing as you've yet to provide that you personally or anyone personally in this thread has actually had information taken from them or any such nonsense, you're all just tinfoilers that probably think aliens can read our brains too. Im not the one spewing nonsense just like I wasn't the one that made huge generic statements about people yesterday. If you're this sensitive about information about you getting out the internet might not be the place for you...


OK. Lets quote the TOS directly to try to find the issue at stake, which you clearly not understand:
Quote:


> Collection, Storage and Use of Information
> 
> _( a) Definitions )_
> "aggregate information" is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of Subscribers as a group (which may include computer system and device data) but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular Subscriber.
> "individual information" is information about a Subscriber (which may include computer system and device data) that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other Subscribers but not in a form that personally identifies any Subscriber or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any Subscriber unless agreed to by the Subscriber in advance of such communication.
> "personally identifiable information" may consist of a Subscriber's name, email address, physical address or other data about the Subscriber that enables the Subscriber to be personally identified.
> 
> _( b) terms )_
> By using Razer Synapse 2.0 ("Synapse"), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.
> Razer may use customer contact information provided by Subscribers to send information about Razer, including news about product updates, contests, events, and other promotional materials, but only if the Subscriber agrees to receive such communications. Except in the cases described below, Razer will not share personally identifiable information with any third party unless the Subscriber agrees to such disclosure in advance.
> While provision of personally identifiable information remains entirely voluntary, Razer reserves the right to make access to certain value-added services or features conditional upon the supply of personally identifiable information. In such situations, the Subscriber will be given the option to decline use of the particular value added service or feature if he does not wish to furnish personally identifiable information.
> In some situations, personally identifiable information the Subscriber inputs in connection with Synapse may be made searchable or otherwise available to other Subscribers (such as in certain public functions). Razer has no obligation to keep the privacy of personally identifiable information that is made available by a Subscriber to other Subscribers.
> Collection of personally identifiable information may be out-sourced to associates under agreement with Razer. These associates may adhere to their own set of privacy policies.
> Personally identifiable information will be processed and stored by Razer in databases hosted in secure locations. Razer has taken reasonable steps to protect the information Subscribers share with it, including, but not limited to, setup of processes, equipment and software to avoid unauthorized access or disclosure of this information.
> Razer may allow third parties performing services under contract with Razer to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services. In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this Privacy Policy.
> Razer may release personally identifiable information to comply with court orders or laws that require us to disclose such information, without the need of consent from the Subscriber.


This is as clear as a day. Lets dissect it.

*Types of information and how Razer handles it.*

a) Aggregate information: information that describes the habits, usage patterns and demographics of subscribers as a group. Razer has all the rights to share this information as their sole discretion.

b) Individual information: information about a Subscriber regarding individual behavior, but without such information identifieing personally anyone. (AKA everything but your name, e-mail adress, real adress, phone number or IP, but all the rest). Razer has all the rights to share this information as their sole discretion.

c) Personal information: information about a subscriber that personally identifies himself. Name, adress, phone number, e-mail, etc. With this information, Razer may:
c.1) Make this data available for other subscribers.
c.2) Outsource the collection of this information to other parties... which may adhere to their own set of privacy policies.
c.3) Allow third parties to access such personal information only to the extend required by the services provided by those third parties.
c.4) Razer reserves the right to give you access to certain value-added services conditional upon the supply of personal information.

All in all, this is BAD. For instance, not only can Razer do all they want with most information... they may cut services back if you reject to give them your most private data... that they may share upon their discretion with other subscribers or any other third party that they may have a contract with them.

And no, all the MAY you see are specifically for a reason: should the contract state WILL, Razer would be legally binded to DO everything they state... but because they state MAY, they have no obligation to do so, but they can... and they do.

So, please, if you are ok with your personal information being shared IN EXCHANGE TO USE A DAMN MOUSE, fine, I'm not arguing against it... but your comparisons with plenty other services are fairly poor, because:

a) You don't pay to use facebook. In exchange to use facebook, you share your information.
b) You don't pay to use google. In exchange, you let them use your information.
c) You PAY to use a MOUSE and its features. In exchange for this money, not only you are given a mouse... but also you MUST give up your personal information so that you may use the features that make this mouse special from any other... and, as stated in the TOS, should you not give them some privacy information they may require they may not give you access to certain services... that you already paid for.

All in all, its a very stupid, ridiculous and ugly decision, because Synapse 2.0 gives nothing good to nobody (if you wanted cloud storage, you can have it without Razer... and you can use HDD, SD or whatever physical devices you may have lying around to store your profiles) yet gives everybody something very very bad.

So, please, I don't know about you... but I won't buy any other Razer product and I'll talk others not to.. They crossed the line, honestly, because this is too much. We don't need a mouse that REQUIRES and internet connection and ACTIVELY COLLECTS AND SHARES A TON OF INFORMATION REGARDING YOURSELF because, you know, ITS A MOUSE. If Razer decided to make a "social" MOUSE that was 50% cheaper but, in exchange, required you do share information... fine, you could decide whether it was worth it or not... but selling very expensive products, to start with, and putting this crap around them...

nope, thank you.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here I thought we were making progress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty about internet marketing and know exactly what information they would want. It's actually how I make my living. I can absolutely guarantee they aren't just accruing benign statistics about how often you hit the letter "N" or how many times you clicked the Start menu last month.
> As for me being worried about my privacy as opposed to you wanting more features, when have I ever stated otherwise? Of course that's the case.


You have still yet to state what information they would be gathering, and now that you have "expertise" there's even more pressure on you to do it. I'm just saying, no matter what, I don't care what gets pulled from my rig. The one rig I have that has things on it that I don't want going on to the internet, doesn't have any ability to even use the internet.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> You are an incredibly foolish human being. I pity you, I really do.
> Privacy has very little to do with sexual deviancy, or illegal activity. This is the simple fact that you fail to comprehend. You are trying to argue a case, on a subject. By your own admission, you know nothing about, or care to learn about.
> What added features exactly?


Ok well your definition of foolish and mine are vastly different, I'm more interested in how I even went down a road of "sexual deviancy or illegal activity" I simply stated if someone even were to post every website I viewed, I'd sleep like a baby tonight. No, fear, here. However most people would not that you calling me foolish is a lil pot-kettle seeing as once again, I've stated I have nothing to hide, as a result privacy to me in this regard is something I can easily forgo. Seriously if you wish to prove this point I will gladly aid you









I don't care to learn because I know the extent of the law in my country and that if that TOS agreement entered in a court case that broke a law it wouldn't hold water. As for what extra features. I can take my 1 mouse, between any of my 4 rigs, my friends's 3 rigs, my workstation at work, or any of the machines in our shop, and get my profiles and macros (both things I have very many of) and get them anywhere, any when.

Prava bro, sorry but its freakin midnight by my mental clock, TLDNR...


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> You have still yet to state what information they would be gathering, and now that you have "expertise" there's even more pressure on you to do it. I'm just saying, no matter what, I don't care what gets pulled from my rig. The one rig I have that has things on it that I don't want going on to the internet, doesn't have any ability to even use the internet.


How much longer are we going to run around in these pointless circles? The point is not whether or not I can give you the exact information they are getting from people. The point is that I can guarantee you it isn't benign keystroke or mouse click statistics. There is no money to be made from that, and they would be doing this for no other reason than to make money from the info they are garnishing.

How is "habits" and "usage patterns" not enough to convince you that they're monitoring what you're doing? This could include anything from what websites you visit to what videos you watch (which could include offline video in this case), what games you play, what songs you listen to, could include what you do in your email, what programs you install on your computer, how often and how long you do each of the previously said things, pretty much anything to paint a picture about how individuals use their computers and what they do to give marketers an edge in their marketing towards you.

My not being able to prove which one they're doing is beside the point. They're definitely looking at one or more of these metrics. They could be doing them all within the context of their wording for all we know. That's why I said vagueness is cause for more worry, not less. The fact is all of those things are on the table and very likely. They didn't throw "habits" and "usage patterns" into their TOS by accident. There was a purpose, and it most definitely involved making money on whatever information they're gathering.

The service is for syncing mouse profiles. The service does much more than sync mouse profiles. Their TOS opens the door wide open for copious amounts of data collection. Their software, in its current state, maintains a constant data connection anytime you're connected to the internet.

None of that sounds nefarious to you apparently. With any company, especially large corporations, you always have to assume the worst and hope for the best when they start throwing in terms like monitoring "habits" and "usage patterns," and this on top of making some bogus excuse for the service. Flash memory becoming more and more expensive? Right..


----------



## Tehrawk

Yes yes. Blah blah blah, nothing to hide, blah blah blah.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> As for what extra features. I can take my 1 mouse, between any of my 4 rigs, my friends's 3 rigs, my workstation at work, or any of the machines in our shop, and get my profiles and macros (both things I have very many of) and get them anywhere, any when..


There are plenty of mice that facilitate something like this. In fact the way in which they do it means they are infinitely more convenient for using on numerous machines.

These mice store your config files on the mouse itself. This means you just plug the mice into another machine, and all your setting are loaded automatically. No need to install specific software. Just plug it in, wait two seconds for your OS to install generic drivers, and you are done.

Having to log in to load your profile is ridiculous. It would be quicker to just change the dpi settings in the control panel.

Also, you might not have a problem with invasion of your privacy, due to having "nothing to hide". But maybe your friends are not idiots. Also installing something like that on a work computer is really irresponsible.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> How much longer are we going to run around in these pointless circles? The point is not whether or not I can give you the exact information they are getting from people. *The point is that I can guarantee you it isn't benign keystroke or mouse click statistics. There is no money to be made from that, and they would be doing this for no other reason than to make money from the info they are garnishing.*
> *How is "habits" and "usage patterns" not enough to convince you that they're monitoring what you're doing?* This could include anything from what websites you visit to what videos you watch (which could include offline video in this case), what games you play, what songs you listen to, could include what you do in your email, what programs you install on your computer, how often and how long you do each of the previously said things, pretty much anything to paint a picture about how individuals use their computers and what they do to give marketers an edge in their marketing towards you.
> *My not being able to prove which one they're doing is beside the point.* They're definitely looking at one or more of these metrics. They could be doing them all within the context of their wording for all we know. *That's why I said vagueness is cause for more worry, not less. The fact is all of those things are on the table and very likely.* They didn't throw "habits" and "usage patterns" into their TOS by accident. *There was a purpose, and it most definitely involved making money on whatever information they're gathering.*
> The service is for syncing mouse profiles. *The service does much more than sync mouse profiles. Their TOS opens the door wide open for copious amounts of data collection. Their software, in its current state, maintains a constant data connection anytime you're connected to the internet.*
> None of that sounds nefarious to you apparently.


Bolded things, in order of appearance:

You can't guarantee anything as you don't work extensively on this software, or have any way of finding out what it sends out.

They ARE doing it to improve their BETA software, something no one keeps in mind, is that the software needs to be improved. It does not meet the spec.

I know they're monitoring what I'm doing but not to what extent. I can safely say however that if I were suddenly not ok with monitoring my activity my phone company and ISP would get angry calls before Razer.

No its not your making baseless claims because like me you can't prove crap all. Everyone in this thread is speculating based on vague statements in a TOS

I don't see it as a source of worry in the slightest that's why there's a misunderstanding here. Let me ask you, why are you so attached to being aloof and secretive?

Or the purpose could be understanding the users of their software to improve it for their benefit. You know, like all software companies, make what your clients will want to buy.

The service does do more then mouse profiles, it does keyboards too







but seriously. Maybe it does more, maybe, so what? Seriously, not getting why there's such scepticism here. Their TOS does open a door that I personally am ok with them opening, you are not, all I can say there is don't use the software in online mode. Wait for development to finish, DL it, and go into offline mode.

It doesn't sound nefarious to me because I don't believe in buying trouble. For example if I think hard enough that my CPU will die tomorrow, the world will create a situation for it to happen. If I worry over useless things, they become non useless and therefore are more things I have to deal with. Pass on that.

New content:

Again, I respect you wanting privacy. That doesn't change the fact that you are not obligated to use the software, or even get up in arms about it. And this is in a reality where I agree with you which I do not. I do not see this as harmful, especially when compared to game booster. What if your video drivers did this? What'd you do then eh?


----------



## formula m

Moral of story.. don't buy Razer stuff.

The last three mice I've bought from them, were substandard. DPI is not the holy grail...

Razer has become cheap garbage. Honestly, I have a Corsair something-or-other and it makes Razer look kid'ish.

(Though I really am now opting for this new Lvl10 mouse. It has perfect feel & great design.)


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> Yes yes. Blah blah blah, nothing to hide, blah blah blah.
> There are plenty of mice that facilitate something like this. In fact the way in which they do it means they are infinitely more convenient for using on numerous machines.
> These mice store your config files on the mouse itself. This means you just plug the mice into another machine, and all your setting are loaded automatically. No need to install specific software. Just plug it in, wait two seconds for your OS to install generic drivers, and you are done.
> Having to log in to load your profile is ridiculous. It would be quicker to just change the dpi settings in the control panel.
> Also, you might not have a problem with invasion of your privacy, due to having "nothing to hide". But maybe your friends are not idiots. Also installing something like that on a work computer is really irresponsible.


I'ma cut you off here. If you think I can fit over 7000 macros on the memory in this mouse, then I really think you should learn a bit more about them. (That's just for my Torcam profile)

DPI settings is definitely the least of my concerns.

And just because I have nothing to hide I'm an idiot eh? Maybe being less of a condescending jackass would do you well son. You seem to think you know a lot more then you do and are just making this more personal then it needs to be.

And finally if I manage every computer, server, file, flashdrive, harddrive, dvd collection, everything at where I work including all of the images, I will install whatever the hell I please thank you very much. I have netsuppot on all the machines too, stores everything they do too







You want privacy you get it at home.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Maybe it does more, maybe, so what?


This is the heart of your view on the matter. Even if they were doing any of the things I mentioned, you wouldn't care. Having that bias completely throws any argument for privacy out the window with you. Nothing I said is baseless. I know how this game works. Even if I didn't, a company telling me that their peripheral profile syncing software will be monitoring what I do on my computer would be plenty.

You're content with not having any privacy on your computer. Don't tell others they should be too.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> This is the heart of your view on the matter. Even if they were doing any of the things I mentioned, you wouldn't care. Having that bias completely throws any argument for privacy out the window with you. Nothing I said is baseless. I know how this game works. Even if I didn't, a company telling me that their peripheral profile syncing software will be monitoring what I do on my computer would be plenty.
> You're content with not having any privacy on your computer. Don't tell others they should be too.


You still keep removing the fact that the information they take from you can't be used to identify you, as well as its can not does as its worded.

I have yet to tell anyone what to do with the exception of the guy that asked how to fix something.


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> You still keep removing the fact that the information they take from you can't be used to identify you, as well as its can not does as its worded.
> I have yet to tell anyone what to do with the exception of the guy that asked how to fix something.


Un-freaking-believable.

This has been covered numerous times in this thread. Clearly you are not reading what people are saying to you.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> Un-freaking-believable.
> This has been covered numerous times in this thread. Clearly you are not reading what people are saying to you.


I am reading all the theories that everyone is posting. I'm still waiting for actual evidence.

Seriously, chill the hell out bro its a discussion.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> They ARE doing it to improve their BETA software, something no one keeps in mind, is that the software needs to be improved. It does not meet the spec.


So a brand new product I bought off the shelves is forcing me to use beta software?


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> You still keep removing the fact that the information they take from you can't be used to identify you, as well as its can not does as its worded.
> I have yet to tell anyone what to do with the exception of the guy that asked how to fix something.


Removing from where exactly?

They say they won't *share* personally identifiable information, and even that has the clause of " except as described in the policy below." They do say they will *collect* it. I don't want them even collecting this information in the first place. You trust they won't sell personal information to anyone? Riiight.. Let me fill you in on a little secret: A website telling you they won't share the information you're entering doesn't mean they won't - not even close.

Even if the information they're doling out isn't personally identifiable, which that likely is the case, I still don't want their damned *peripheral profile syncing software* nosing around in what I'm doing. Is it really that hard to understand?

The point of the entire thread is data mining, regardless of whether or not it is personally identifiable, and I think it's patently clear that this is truth.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> So a brand new product I bought off the shelves is forcing me to use beta software?


The N2012 assuming it actually forces you to use synapse 2 (which still does surprise me seeing as every other naga revision has used the old drivers) then yes, it does, and that is something that is not cool.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> Removing from where exactly?
> They say they won't *share* personally identifiable information, and even that has the clause of " except as described in the policy below." They do say they will not *collect* it. I don't want them even collecting this information in the first place. You trust they won't sell personal information to anyone? Riiight.. Let me fill you in on a little secret: A website telling you they won't share the information you're entering doesn't mean they won't - not even close.
> Even if the information they're doling out isn't personally identifiable, which that likely is the case, I still don't want their damned *peripheral profile syncing software* nosing around in what I'm doing. Is it really that hard to understand?
> The point of the entire thread is data mining, regardless of whether or not it is personally identifiable, and I think it's patently clear that this is truth.


Its not that the desire is hard to understand its the why. Let me spell this out for you

"If you wanna use our stuff to the best of its abilities, then allow us to collect some information that can't be used to identify you in any way."

You see some kind of problem here, which is what maybe due to my tired ass state I'm not understanding. Please explain to me how this is harmful to you. Like seriously, do you not have a google account either?


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> By using Razer Synapse 2.0 ("Synapse"), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, *except as described in the policy below.*


Quote:


> Collection of personally identifiable information may be out-sourced to associates under agreement with Razer. These associates may adhere to their own set of privacy policies.


So they wont share your personal information with "other parties". But they will share it with "associates". They "adhere to their own set of privacy policies", that is reassuring.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Its not that the desire is hard to understand its the why. Let me spell this out for you
> "If you wanna use our stuff to the best of its abilities, then allow us to collect some information that can't be used to identify you in any way."
> You see some kind of problem here, which is what maybe due to my tired ass state I'm not understanding. Please explain to me how this is harmful to you. Like seriously, do you not have a google account either?


That's the thing.. them collecting anything other than profile info should have absolutely no bearing on their service working properly. It's completely contrived and just another revenue stream.

A program physically installed on your computer can monitor far more than any website in a browser, especially in one with appropriate addons.

Aside from that, complaining about the cost of flash memory as some sort of excuse just stinks. It just goes further to show how contrived the whole thing is.

There are plenty of reasons here to not want to support this kind of behavior.

At the end of the day, this thread is about data mining, whether it's personally identifiable or not. People asked for proof. The proof is definitely there. End of story.


----------



## tommyxv

Thanks for the info... I posted this over on AlienOwners.com to help spread the word. Full credit given to the OP of course.


----------



## Venatik

I'll just chime in with my







here.

I honestly couldn't care less about them collecting information from my computer. I could elaborate on that, but seeing the last few pages it would be kinda pointless. Simply put, I enjoy the products I own and that's that.

The second part, however, is that it would be freaking nice if they fixed the damn software. Collect usage patterns all you want, but Synapse 2.0 is almost as annoying as Steam used to be back in the day. Continually updating or simply not working. It gets tiresome.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> That's the thing.. them collecting anything other than profile info should have absolutely no bearing on their service working properly. It's completely contrived and just another revenue stream.
> A program physically installed on your computer can monitor far more than any website in a browser, especially in one with appropriate addons.
> Aside from that, complaining about the cost of flash memory as some sort of excuse just stinks. It just goes further to show how contrived the whole thing is.
> There are plenty of reasons here to not want to support this kind of behavior.


I can certainly agree that a program installed is more worrysome then a browser. The fact is as it stands the software does not work and they know it. I honestly do not think its a revenue stream to be honest. I think its for "lets see how they use it, and improve that experience" however the part about associates is what makes me believe that you could be right, however still not a concern to me.

Flash memory, Ive been on your side since the beginning on that one.

I don't support companies taking advantage of TOS things assuming the user won't read them, but again, Razer won't be the first on my list if I were to do something about it.


----------



## cdoublejj

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Its not that the desire is hard to understand its the why. Let me spell this out for you
> "If you wanna use our stuff to the best of its abilities, then allow us to collect some information that can't be used to identify you in any way."
> You see some kind of problem here, which is what maybe due to my tired ass state I'm not understanding. Please explain to me how this is harmful to you. Like seriously, do you not have a google account either?


It doesn't have to be harmful to not like it. Personal preference is what you are not understanding.


----------



## jprovido

I have a razer keyboard and mouse and I never install the softwares lol


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sh3ldor*
> 
> WAIT?! They didn't come to your house and force you to install it?
> They didn't install cameras watching your every move and tracking your every browse?
> Surely you must be mistaken, cause that contradicts everything we have read in this very sane thread!


People with Razer's most recent products are forced to install the software if they want to get any of the higher functionality out of it. What does people with previous models not having to install it have to do with anything? The discussions specifically pertain to Synapse.

5 posts and zero rep, all earned in this thread and none of them enlightening.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sh3ldor*
> 
> Got to say this was a funny read, ty guys and gals.
> This place is one of the most paranoid places ever, we have been putting up with syapsis for a while.
> Then one tin foil hat doesn't like it or just discovers if for the first time with his new razer mouse and everyone joins him on the hate wagon.
> This has been blown WAY out of proportion.
> Lmao hunting down their ceo's and all sorts.
> Ye lets get paranoid about razer syapsis that has nothing to do with our personal details, but then spill our life all over facebook.
> Go logic!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sh3ldor*
> 
> You should all work in the xfiles, seriously so paranoid.
> It is actually bordering on a condition for some of you here.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sh3ldor*
> 
> Was getting at that.


Go troll somewhere else.


----------



## dph314

I have a Lycosa and DeathAdder, so, just thought I'd ask- What's the difference between what they're doing and what tons of major websites and other software out there does? I mean, websites...cookies galore. And software, I bet there's tons of programs we all have that you'd be able to find the exact same thing written in their TOS that many seem to be complaining about here. Every company does this, I don't understand why it's such a shock with Razer.

Not defending them, so don't shoot me. Just genuinely curious is all


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dph314*
> 
> I have a Lycosa and DeathAdder, so, just thought I'd ask- What's the difference between what they're doing and what tons of major websites and other software out there does? I mean, websites...cookies galore. And software, I bet there's tons of programs we all have that you'd be able to find the exact same thing written in their TOS that many seem to be complaining about here. Every company does this, I don't understand why it's such a shock with Razer.
> Not defending them, so don't shoot me. Just genuinely curious is all


Website cookies can only track so much, and there are steps a person can take to at the very least subvert them.

Software installed on your computer has the potential to farm much more information, and they even tell you they will in a nonspecific way. Steam may have statistics on what kind of hardware you have and how long you play games, but that's pretty trivial information that doesn't really concern me. If anything, it helps them to do their job better. All this would help Razer do is to sell information to advertisers and potentially help them advertise.

Programmers are usually petty good at whistle blowing programs that carry spyware or adware in them. Certain scanners also have definitions that are kept up to date with such information. It isn't in a dev's best interest to sneak something like this in under the radar. People will find out.

When a contrived system like this is implemented under bogus pretenses and a questionable TOS, it's only logical to question their motives.


----------



## Darkling5499

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jprovido*
> 
> I have a razer keyboard and mouse and I never install the softwares lol


same. i'm currently USING A RAZER NAGA 2012 MOUSE wihtout having installed synapse, and it works just fine. every last button and mode. sure, i don't have the software (via synapse) to make programable macros, but thats what a G15 is for.

i can't believe that 31 pages of pitchforking and witch hunting was done over a lie. YOU DO NOT NEED TO INSTAL SYNAPSE TO USE A NAGA OUTSIDE OF 3 BUTTONS.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darkling5499*
> 
> same. i'm currently USING A RAZER NAGA 2012 MOUSE wihtout having installed synapse, and it works just fine. every last button and mode. sure, i don't have the software (via synapse) to make programable macros, but thats what a G15 is for.
> i can't believe that 31 pages of pitchforking and witch hunting was done over a lie. YOU DO NOT NEED TO INSTAL SYNAPSE TO USE A NAGA OUTSIDE OF 3 BUTTONS.


Even if you didn't need it for any of the buttons, how does that justify anything? Synapse is still what it is, regardless of who uses it. The point of the thread is letting people, who normally may have installed it, know about it.

If people can indeed get all the functionality out of even the latest models without using Synapse, that's great. They should.


----------



## Scrappy

As if I needed another reason to hate Razer. This is insane this is a mouse, this is a mouse you pay big money for (free services like FB are a tad more justified), the fact that you are then data mined is beyond comprehension. No one should be willing to tolerate this and no one should buy any mice from Razer if they are going to push these practices. It's not like their mice are good anyway, all but their first couple are for uninformed COD junkies.


----------



## Darkling5499

i was merely pointing out that fallacy that the first post was based on. you do NOT need synapse to use the mouse outside of 3 button functionality.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darkling5499*
> 
> i was merely pointing out that fallacy that the first post was based on. you do NOT need synapse to use the mouse outside of 3 button functionality.


Well the thread title refers to the connection between Synapse and data mining. If other things have been mentioned and later proven to be false, that's fine.

In all fairness, if you do use Synapse, you have to authenticate with their servers, which you cannot do if they're down. Previous driver versions are archived, so it isn't that much of a stretch that some may not have gone that route after purchasing a new mouse. Most people go straight for the latest software, and it's even recommended with most programs and drivers.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darkling5499*
> 
> same. i'm currently USING A RAZER NAGA 2012 MOUSE wihtout having installed synapse, and it works just fine. every last button and mode. sure, i don't have the software (via synapse) to make programable macros, but thats what a G15 is for.
> i can't believe that 31 pages of pitchforking and witch hunting was done over a lie. YOU DO NOT NEED TO INSTAL SYNAPSE TO USE A NAGA OUTSIDE OF 3 BUTTONS.


You went through 31 pages but didn't read the first post? I already said the mouse works as basic plug and play without the Synapse drivers. And what do you mean outside 3 buttons?

The fact is you DON'T get full function of the mouse unless you activate it and agree to the invasive TOS. No DPI fine tuning no polling rate adjustment no LED customization no side button customization. Do your research next time. You buy an expensive mouse you expect a nice driver suite to tune your mouse. Razer holds this hostage unfairly from you.


----------



## srsparky32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JoshHunter*
> 
> All we do now is watch Razer lose sales to Steelseries, Roccat and Corsair


replaced a brand new deathadder that started double clicking in 3 months with a SteelSeries Sensei. i love steelseries now. rock solid mice, and my sensei has been nothing but good to me.


----------



## akromatic

I have a razer orochi and it works without the software/driver. macro etc is stored in the onboard storage and that is great because I dont have to reconfigure the settings everytime.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scutzi128*
> 
> People are so dramatic. This isn't even DRM it is to create profiles that can be saved so that the mouse settings are preserved. I mean who doesn't have an internet connection in this day and age? It only needs internet connection to initially setup your profile. I see no issue here especially with the enthusiast consumer in mind (its a gaming mouse for gods sake what gamer does not have access to internet). The only issue I can see is that they did not list having an internet connection as mandatory on the box somewhere.


honestly besides the point but not everyone is blessed with always online internet. I still live in the 28k dailup world and its not like games arnt ment to be played offline. if razer requires an always online connection to use the mouse i'd be really pissed though


----------



## Bloitz

Well, I can only speak for the Razer DA Black Edition I have and which I'm very very satisfied with. I don't use the drivers though, nor do I need to have special settings saved or Razer snooping around and collecting data from me (if they so choose to, it doesn't mean they will do it). I really think they should've first let you set up the mouse and given you to the option to save it to the cloud. Why force these features? Big







from me Razer.

The DA works perfectly fine without drivers and defaults to 1800 DPI (you can't switch DPI/ change what the buttons do AFAIK but really, who needs that. We did just fine in the days where we didn't have all this stuff).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akromatic*
> 
> I still live in the 28k dailup world and its not like games arnt ment to be played offline. if razer requires an always online connection to use the mouse i'd be really pissed though


Luckily it doesn't, just once when you first install the software. Still stupid IMHO though.


----------



## XenoRad

Skimming though this thread revealed a concerning recurrence: people don't mind being encumbered with accounts, restrictions and requirements regarding internet access.

Like any of you I have a dozen accounts on a dozen sites and many more which I have already forgotten. Remembering and taking the time to enter all the info. required to access my accounts is taking more and more of my day. I was constantly forgetting passwords until I created a system to recreate them mentally for each account. However some accounts require passwords to be a certain length, others don't accept certain characters. Anyway my point is this is getting out of hand. It's already too much. If we're required to have accounts and internet connections for hardware all it takes is one of the many conditions to happen (server down, server malfunction, no internet access, memory loss, etc.) for us to be locked out of functionality. When you're interlocking things one failure leads to a cascade o failures.

Whether an internet connection is common place or not is irrelevant. Don't use something just because it's there. Don't create overhead just for the sake of moving around large quantities of data. The second decade of the 21st century will be the decade of messing about with data. It's always more and more data required for doing just one more thing. We don't know what data we need, we don't know what we can use it for - all we know is we want more.

It's like : Oh, so you want this function? Then install 200 MB of bloatware, make an account, have a process run at start-up and be prepared to be pestered with updates, requests, malfunctions and such.


----------



## Magariz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> You went through 31 pages but didn't read the first post? I already said the mouse works as basic plug and play without the Synapse drivers. And what do you mean outside 3 buttons?
> The fact is you DON'T get full function of the mouse unless you activate it and agree to the invasive TOS. No DPI fine tuning no polling rate adjustment no LED customization no side button customization. Do your research next time. You buy an expensive mouse you expect a nice driver suite to tune your mouse. Razer holds this hostage unfairly from you.


So create your account and then set Synapse to OFFLINE mode all the time. That's how mine is and it never goes online EVER. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You do realise that most companies with online services gather information on you and how you use their product to sell to others as well as monitor for how their product meets your needs. Gmail monitors your email to tailor ads to stuff that is most likely to interest you. I would be shocked if none of that data was ever shared/sold to vendors to improve marketing. This is market research done by companies without having to shell out fortunes of money to a middle man in order to conduct the research.


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magariz*
> 
> So create your account and then set Synapse to OFFLINE mode all the time. That's how mine is and it never goes online EVER. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things..


Yeah, just get data mined once. I promise it will be gentle.


----------



## prava

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Prava bro, sorry but its freakin midnight by my mental clock, TLDNR...


Thanks for not even bothering to read my reply, which was based on the TOS and using a language thats not even my 2nd one. Seriously, I wonder why I take the effort sometimes to look into stupid TOS and legal terms that are really hard for me to fully understand (english is my 3rd language) only for others to not even bother reading what I wrote.

I love how respectful some users are


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magariz*
> 
> So create your account and then set Synapse to OFFLINE mode all the time. That's how mine is and it never goes online EVER.


There is no offline mode you can toggle. If youre online, so is Synapse 2.0. You cant turn it off unless you block it with another program
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magariz*
> 
> Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You do realise that most companies with online services gather information on you and how you use their product to sell to others as well as monitor for how their product meets your needs. Gmail monitors your email to tailor ads to stuff that is most likely to interest you. I would be shocked if none of that data was ever shared/sold to vendors to improve marketing. This is market research done by companies without having to shell out fortunes of money to a middle man in order to conduct the research.


Actually it is a big deal. Nobody should have to activate a mouse before it can fully be used and then be subject to data mining when you already paid a premium on the mouse already.

You fail to realize Gmail is a free service. Ads are to be expected to sustain the model. Razer has absolutely no right to profit off our private info.


----------



## downlinx

just had a nice twitter conversation with Min-liang and yes it true that there is cloud and data mining, but the best news, you have offline option that gives you all options and you do not have to create an account.
Twitter conversation
so now that i know more, i dont really care. I dont buy there products anyway.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *downlinx*
> 
> just had a nice twitter conversation with Min-liang and yes it true that there is cloud and data mining, but the best news, you have offline option that gives you all options and you do not have to create an account.
> Twitter conversation
> so now that i know more, i dont really care. I dont buy there products anyway.


Again, there isnt an option to go into offline mode with Synapse 2.0 its always going to be connected online unless you block it somehow. And yes, you do have to make an account and log in and activate the mouse before Synapse can be used.

I wish he would stop saying people have the option to do that he's making things worse by being dishonest, just like he said 2mb of onboard flash memory is too cost prohibitive to put into mice.


----------



## Bloitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> I wish he would stop saying people have the option to do that he's making things worse by being dishonest, just like he said 2mb of onboard flash memory is too cost prohibitive to put into mice.


Yea, I frowned on that one as well


----------



## Scrappy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *downlinx*
> 
> I wish he would stop saying people have the option to do that he's making things worse by being dishonest, just like he said 2mb of onboard flash memory is too cost prohibitive to put into mice.


Yea IDK man
http://www.amazon.com/512MB-Pen-Drive-Flash-Memory/dp/B0014CA7WO/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1352146322&sr=1-2&keywords=flash+drive
That's an extra $3 for more storage than they could ever use, seems to expensive for gamers buying $90 mice.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrappy*
> 
> Yea IDK man
> http://www.amazon.com/512MB-Pen-Drive-Flash-Memory/dp/B0014CA7WO/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1352146322&sr=1-2&keywords=flash+drive
> That's an extra $3 for more storage than they could ever use, seems to expensive for gamers buying $90 mice.


you in fact can use the offline mode though. Just tried the build I have installed with no internet and it still worked.


----------



## Scrappy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Scrappy*
> 
> Yea IDK man
> http://www.amazon.com/512MB-Pen-Drive-Flash-Memory/dp/B0014CA7WO/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1352146322&sr=1-2&keywords=flash+drive
> That's an extra $3 for more storage than they could ever use, seems to expensive for gamers buying $90 mice.
> 
> 
> 
> you in fact can use the offline mode though. Just tried the build I have installed with no internet and it still worked.
Click to expand...

Try changing stuff.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrappy*
> 
> Try changing stuff.


I did...


----------



## Scrappy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Scrappy*
> 
> Try changing stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> I did...
Click to expand...

You're using one of their older mice that still have onboard memory, the newer ones wont and you will be forced to use online to change anything. Stop defending this terrible company.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrappy*
> 
> You're using one of their older mice that still have onboard memory, the newer ones wont and you will be forced to use online to change anything. Stop defending this terrible company.


Actually AFAIK even the naga 2012s still have memory inside them.

(Also if you even looked at my sig you'd know my gear is old)

I'm not even defending them I'm telling truths you lot are too dumb to test, or can't be bothered to test, which is it?


----------



## Scrappy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Scrappy*
> 
> You're using one of their older mice that still have onboard memory, the newer ones wont and you will be forced to use online to change anything. Stop defending this terrible company.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually AFAIK even the naga 2012s still have memory inside them.
> 
> (Also if you even looked at my sig you'd know my gear is old)
> 
> I'm not even defending them I'm telling truths you lot are too dumb to test, or can't be bothered to test, which is it?
Click to expand...

Not going to waste my money on junk HW to be able to test. I also won't support any company that tries stuff like this, even if there are work arounds the vast majority of people won't know any better and will just be tricked in to giving up information for no reason.


----------



## Virgle144

Is it just me or does stuff like this not bother me. If I like the mouse then the software won't bother me.


----------



## Scrappy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Virgle144*
> 
> Is it just me or does stuff like this not bother me. If I like the mouse then the software won't bother me.


It's just you


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrappy*
> 
> It's just you


No its not.


----------



## Juganot

I can make changes to my razer products when synpase is offline so that in my eyes is a non issues. However, I would have to be a fanboy in order to accept his explanations on why the cloud system is forced onto us.

1) He is telling downright lies when he says there is an offline mode, there is no way to access the features with synpase 2.0 software without having the initial internet.

2) his excuse for not having onboard memory is completely silly. I mean they could easily make separate offline drivers for people to use local storage if they see fit. Also, as many have seen it costs a minimal amount in order to get a required amount of memory onto a peripheral, I suppose razer don't want to increase the price of a £60+ product by £2


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juganot*
> 
> I can make changes to my razer products when synpase is offline so that in my eyes is a non issues. However, I would have to be a fanboy in order to accept his explanations on why the cloud system is forced onto us.
> 1) He is telling downright lies when he says there is an offline mode, there is no way to access the features with synpase 2.0 software without having the initial internet.
> 2) his excuse for not having onboard memory is completely silly. I mean they could easily make separate offline drivers for people to use local storage if they see fit. Also, as many have seen it costs a minimal amount in order to get a required amount of memory onto a peripheral, I suppose razer don't want to increase the price of a £60+ product by £2


1: you need initial internet to download the drivers anyway...

2: Agreed that's complete horse excrement.


----------



## Juganot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> 1: you need initial internet to download the drivers anyway...
> 2: Agreed that's complete horse excrement.


The difference between downloading drivers and having to activate software is massive.

With offline software you can download it and stay offline no problem.

With synpase you need to have that initial internet to activate your device (sounds like a form of drm to me) and then you have no option go offline. All some people want is a completely offline option offered by literally all of their competitors which isn't at all unreasonable to me, if they really wanted to do what the consumer wanted they should release both offline and online software and let people choose themselves other than shoehorning people into the cloud. Also, creating completely vague lines about data mining doesn't exactly want people to go with their services


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juganot*
> 
> The difference between downloading drivers and having to activate software is massive.
> With offline software you can download it and stay offline no problem.
> With synpase you need to have that initial internet to activate your device (sounds like a form of drm to me) and then you have no option go offline. All some people want is a completely offline option offered by literally all of their competitors which isn't at all unreasonable to me, if they really wanted to do what the consumer wanted they should release both offline and online software and let people choose themselves other than shoehorning people into the cloud. Also, creating completely vague lines about data mining doesn't exactly want people to go with their services


I do agree not offering it as an alternative surprises me, but short of spending 200 bucks to get gear that doesn't use it I'm not going back. I appreciate also not having to carry a flash full of profiles around with the mouse though.


----------



## Juganot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> I do agree not offering it as an alternative surprises me, but short of spending 200 bucks to get gear that doesn't use it I'm not going back. I appreciate also not having to carry a flash full of profiles around with the mouse though.


Don't get me wrong I am also not in the position to go back and buy new peripherals either and I don't mind using synpase 2.0 but I can see how some would disagree with being forced into using their drm (that is basically what it is) to "unlock" features to their device and then being forced to stay online and as I said a vague ToS doesn't help with peoples concerns. I suspect we agree in this position.

On a side note while I may not mind using synpase 2.0 I would instantly switch over if offline drivers became available.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juganot*
> 
> Don't get me wrong I am also not in the position to go back and buy new peripherals either and I don't mind using synpase 2.0 but I can see how some would disagree with being forced into using their drm (that is basically what it is) to "unlock" features to their device and then being forced to stay online and as I said a vague ToS doesn't help with peoples concerns. I suspect we agree in this position.
> On a side note while I may not mind using synpase 2.0 I would instantly switch over if offline drivers became available.


There's an offline mode in the drivers. However its buggy as the software is beta. (Don't know why they rushed this.)


----------



## Juganot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> There's an offline mode in the drivers. However its buggy as the software is beta. (Don't know why they rushed this.)


I have looked a lot, how do you go about accessing this offline mode?


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juganot*
> 
> I have looked a lot, how do you go about accessing this offline mode?


I just got pinged for updates on it, let me find out if it changes with the new release then I will reply again


----------



## Juganot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> I just got pinged for updates on it, let me find out if it changes with the new release then I will reply again


Well I believe I am in the most up to date synapse 2.0 version and short of blocking it with my antivirus I don't see how a normal person would go about getting into offline mode.


----------



## Hanjin

I'm so glad I stopped buying Razer crap, crap like this makes me even dislike them more.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juganot*
> 
> Well I believe I am in the most up to date synapse 2.0 version and short of blocking it with my antivirus I don't see how a normal person would go about getting into offline mode.


Not currently able to disable the online... sketchy.

Not gonna lie starting to agree with Kaldari something is going on here...

(used to be able to clicky the down arrow, change user, go offline)


----------



## Juganot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Not currently able to disable the online... sketchy.
> Not gonna lie starting to agree with Kaldari something is going on here...
> (used to be able to clicky the down arrow, change user, go offline)


The situation is a bit odd, some clarification on the situation is MASSIVELY needed and an update for completely offline drivers is desperately needed. Currently have all razer synpase related items in my firewall blocked, sadly the little circle will not turn red (even when my internet is unplugged) so I imagine it doesn't properly indicate whether or not you are connected, or I missed out an item in my firewall.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juganot*
> 
> The situation is a bit odd, some clarification on the situation is MASSIVELY needed and an update for completely offline drivers is desperately needed. Currently have all razer synpase related items in my firewall blocked, sadly the little circle will not turn red (even when my internet is unplugged) so I imagine it doesn't properly indicate whether or not you are connected, or I missed out an item in my firewall.


if you do ipconfig/release in CMD, what happens to it? It goes red for me.


----------



## Juganot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> if you do ipconfig/release in CMD, what happens to it? It goes red for me.


Mine stayed green so for now I am assuming it has been blocked. Hopefully Razer resolve this issue asap.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> 1: you need initial internet to download the drivers anyway...
> 2: Agreed that's complete horse excrement.


I dont understand why there wasnt a driver disc in the box anyways. I know it wasnt a cost cutting measure because they included thick cardboard slabs as part of the option manual. Makes no sense. If I was to mail one of these mice to a buddy serving overseas with very limited internet access, even if I included a copy of the drivers on a disc I burned and sent that along with the mouse, they still wouldnt be able to activate and fully configure it.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *channelx99*
> 
> I dont understand why there wasnt a driver disc in the box anyways. I know it wasnt a cost cutting measure because they included thick cardboard slabs as part of the option manual. Makes no sense. If I was to mail one of these mice to a buddy serving overseas with very limited internet access, even if I included a copy of the drivers on a disc I burned and sent that along with the mouse, they still wouldnt be able to activate and fully configure it.


You ask the wrong guy. Im a machinist, not a marketer.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> There's an offline mode in the drivers. However its buggy as the software is beta. (Don't know why they rushed this.)


The only offline mode for Synapse 2.0 is when it no longer detects an internet connection. Theres no option to set it on or off yourself.

This becomes a very big issue if you have spotty or slow internet because the application locks up for a bit when transitioning to offline mode. If it finds an internet connection again, it automatically goes back online and again locks up while doing so. Every time this happens it switches profiles from the cloud to locally on your computer, and the settings may revert or never be saved while this is happening.

On my Naga 2012 I noticed it would lockup from 30 seconds to a minute sometimes, or just completely force close. On two occasions my entire computer locked up briefly when this happened.


----------



## Arizonian

A little related would be WindowsLIVE for Gaming.

I installed new Windows 8. Logging back into Batman Arkham Asylum and Batman Arkham City I have to log into my *Microsoft Windows LIVE Game* software in order to play the games since it's a freshly formatted system. I had forgot my LIVE account profile where I used to sign in. It would not allow me to play the game. So I set up another one Windows LIVE Game account however I cannot get the game to start because even though I have my registration codes for the games I cannot complete the process by signing into the 'original' account where I registered my game codes. Now I'm in a catch 22 where I cannot play two games I purchased until I figure out what account was the original.

So even though there is no data mining, I'm being forced into a software program just to be able to play and if you don't have that info will be locked out of playing my own game I purchased. Same scenario without data mining. I wish this forced sign up in order to obtain usage of a product purchased would stop as well. It's not just Razer Synapse 2.0 because this started a longer time prior to this.


----------



## Poisoner

Why anyone would buy a razer product confuses me. Anything that says "expert gamer " in the descriptions has got to be a gimmick.


----------



## Microtom

I bought a deathadder mouse and 2 months later after light use the left button broke. Sending mouse back was more expansive than buying a new one.

From my experience, razer makes cheap products, never gonna buy from them again.


----------



## lolmont

I've never used Razer drivers they're always garbage. Razer products in general are bad only reason I have a black widow is I had a $50 off coupon for one.


----------



## GuyTheMod

.....This is why Steel Series is going to get more sells then Razer.


----------



## Liranan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> A little related would be WindowsLIVE for Gaming.
> I installed new Windows 8. Logging back into Batman Arkham Asylum and Batman Arkham City I have to log into my *Microsoft Windows LIVE Game* software in order to play the games since it's a freshly formatted system. I had forgot my LIVE account profile where I used to sign in. It would not allow me to play the game. So I set up another one Windows LIVE Game account however I cannot get the game to start because even though I have my registration codes for the games I cannot complete the process by signing into the 'original' account where I registered my game codes. Now I'm in a catch 22 where I cannot play two games I purchased until I figure out what account was the original.
> So even though there is no data mining, I'm being forced into a software program just to be able to play and if you don't have that info will be locked out of playing my own game I purchased. Same scenario without data mining. I wish this forced sign up in order to obtain usage of a product purchased would stop as well. It's not just Razer Synapse 2.0 because this started a longer time prior to this.


Then they point the finger at piracy when software with massive, intrusive DRM sell a lot worse than software that lack any form of DRM.

I was looking at buying a mouse a week ago and I decided to buy a G400 over any of this Razer nonsense. Those slogans they have on their boxes really make me vomit, they couldn't make it more obvious that their products are mediocre at best.


----------



## eternal7trance

Logitech mouse breaks, they ask me what's wrong and send me a new one.

Razer mouse breaks, they ignore my emails for most of the time and then finally ask me to ship it to them to replace it.

Worthless.


----------



## Dyson Poindexter

My Logitech MX1100 is built like a tank, I don't get how a company like Razer can manage to screw up so badly.

And, you just plug it in and it works. No EULA or software suite required.


----------



## Sir Amik Vase

I swear half of OCN are either wearing tin foil hats or are too scared to go outside because "The man might be watching!".
It's not collecting data, plus you shouldn't have anything to hide anyway.


----------



## The Sorcerer

In any case, signing up/in just to set the mouse settings- whether data mining is done or not- is just plain stupid. To that part do we all agree?


----------



## Sylon

They make some good stuff, some bad. I have big hands, been through MX518, G9x, Deathadder, MS X5, Naga. I have never had a mouse fit in my hands as comfortably as the naga, plus I thought the buttload of button would be useless but damn its good for gaming!

If you're sensitive about data collection, you should probably move into the woods, just saying.


----------



## Thedark1337

I've been through 3 deathadders because it is the most awesome mouse ever with its sensor. Y'all can all be paranoid while I still will buy Razer


----------



## Stuuut

Soooooo what exactly do they gather and sell what the rest of the internet doesn't??? Google does it Facebook and probably alot of other software/websites....

Anyways if Synapse 2.0 wasn't so crappy i would be using it too despite them gathering info, it doesn't change the fact that my DA is a nice mouse.


----------



## Mobius01

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> I swear half of OCN are either wearing tin foil hats...


Not after the recent news story


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> I swear half of OCN are either wearing tin foil hats or are too scared to go outside because "The man might be watching!".
> *It's not collecting data*, plus you shouldn't have anything to hide anyway.


Since when are "habits" and "usage patterns" not data?

Being naked is natural, so you shouldn't have anything to hide. Why don't you let someone install a camera in your shower too?


----------



## Sir Amik Vase

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> Since when are "habits" and "usage patterns" not data?
> Being naked is natural, so you shouldn't have anything to hide. Why don't you let someone install a camera in your shower too?


I meant to write data which could be used against you.
All they want to collect is usage information for the product.

Also we're talking about computer privacy, not privacy around the home. That's another matter.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> I meant to write data which could be used against you.
> All they want to collect is usage information for the product.
> Also we're talking about computer privacy, not privacy around the home. That's another matter.


And you're claiming to know that the information only pertains to their product based on what source?

And no, computer privacy is absolutely no less important than the privacy of your home. People have pictures, videos, and information that they don't want to get out into the world or be stolen as much as anything else. I'm not making a claim that they're stealing pictures, videos, and credit card numbers. I'm just speaking to the privacy of one's computer.


----------



## eternal7trance

That's a nice webcam you got there, would be a shame if someone turned it on.


----------



## StormX2

and I still love my Logitech g5









If I were in need of a new mouse, the Logitech g400 would be my obvious choice.

Ive not used razer since tyhe old track ball boomslang which was great for a long time, but she died sometime ago and my g5 replaced it very well

Razer < Logitech


----------



## Captain1337

The only good product that Razer has ever released is the death adder. After the death adder, Razer's quality has gone down. If you want to wait for razer's imbecile customer support to answer you back in a week or two, to be spied upon, and to receive a crappy mouse or a keyboard with a stylish name, then go for Razer.


----------



## losttsol

Using my old Razer Diamondback 3G since my Mionix broke a while back. Will never buy another Razer product after reading this though.


----------



## Penryn

I have the old software that came with my original Razer Naga and Naga Epic (yes I have both) and use that. It never required an account previously for use of either mouse either.


----------



## StormX2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Penryn*
> 
> I have the old software that came with my original Razer Naga and Naga Epic (yes I have both) and use that. It never required an account previously for use of either mouse either.


if they force you to upgrade then that woul dbe pretty bad.

are they saying that the new mice dont hyave onboard memory for these profiles?


----------



## RazerCult

Hey all. There is quite a bit of confusion out there on what Synapse 2.0 is and what it does. We've got some information here on our CEO's FB page that may clarify some of the confusion.

https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan

For people using our older products who do not wish to use the new software, we have re-uploaded our legacy drivers. http://www.razersupport.com/downloads


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Hey all. There is quite a bit of confusion out there on what Synapse 2.0 is and what it does. We've got some information here on our CEO's FB page that may clarify some of the confusion.
> https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan


Thank you for the link and clarifying one of our questions on how Synapse 2.0 can work offline: Source
Quote:


> Synapse 2.0 works OFFLINE
> 
> One of the biggest misunderstandings is the equation of Synapse 2.0 to always-on DRM. It's a popular notion that anything requiring a login has DRM included in it, and this misconception is one that easily gets the community fired up. In this case however, it's incorrect.
> 
> Once registered, Synapse 2.0 works offline and never needs to be online again. So basically, a user creates an account, saves initial settings, and if there's no internet connection, it doesn't matter - settings are saved on the client PC and are not synced to the cloud. Synapse 2.0 works offline.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Hey look I was right all along!


----------



## StormX2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Hey all. There is quite a bit of confusion out there on what Synapse 2.0 is and what it does. We've got some information here on our CEO's FB page that may clarify some of the confusion.
> https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan
> For people using our older products who do not wish to use the new software, we have re-uploaded our legacy drivers. http://www.razersupport.com/downloads


Im assuming you are someone working for Razer?

I am sure some of the people misunderstood and thought it was alway son DRM sort of thing, but from what i understood, it was a problem with setting up the account in the first place, making the mouse pretty usless until the account is created.

Correct?


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Hey look I was right all along!


You're being fooled by the wording. What that quote says is nothing more than what other people said in the thread. It says you don't *need* to be online for it to work after initial activation. If you do not have a connection, then it will switch to offline mode and still work, as has been stated before. That doesn't negate the fact that if the computer *is* online, it will still attempt to establish a connection. If they add the option to turn it off in the future, then it will be less of an issue. But again, that doesn't change the fact that it's connected when you are.

*edit* - Straight from the quote:

Quote:


> So basically, a user creates an account, saves initial settings, and *if there's no internet connection*, it doesn't matter


*IF* there's no internet connection. "If" is the key word.


----------



## crashdummy35

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SOCOM_HERO*
> 
> Well, I have never owned a razer mouse. But I do own one of their mousepads, no cloud storage on that thing!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IcedEarth*
> 
> Yet.


Laughed out loud.


----------



## RazerCult

Our CEO has made a statement about Synapse that may clarify a few things http://www.facebook.com/minliangtan/posts/441476059243515


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Our CEO has made a statement about Synapse that may clarify a few things www.facebook.com/minliangtan


I just read his full post from an hour ago. It doesn't clarify anything. It's the same stuff we've been hearing throughout the thread.


----------



## RazerCult

Legacy drivers are available for legacy products if you don't want to use Synapse. Our CEO clarified that we're only collecting your user settings and we're working to make a more robust offline mode for Synapse.

Edit: grammar


----------



## ____

Lol this thing is starting to spread. Websites are citing this thread.


----------



## eternal7trance

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Legacy drivers are available if you don't want to use Synapse. Our CEO clarified that we're only collecting your user settings and we're working to make a more robust offline mode for Synapse.


Are you guys trying to make it so that if you take a mouse to a lan party, that you have to use razer synapse because you don't want to spend money on onboard memory? I prefer a mouse that keeps the settings on it versus having to use unreliable cloud servers.


----------



## channelx99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Legacy drivers are available if you don't want to use Synapse. Our CEO clarified that we're only collecting your user settings and we're working to make a more robust offline mode for Synapse.


Except that isnt the case for the Naga 2012. The whole reason I made this thread...


----------



## StormX2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> Are you guys trying to make it so that if you take a mouse to a lan party, that you have to use razer synapse because you don't want to spend money on onboard memory? I prefer a mouse that keeps the settings on it versus having to use unreliable cloud servers.


I too dont trust Cloud, especially after the whole megaupload debacle


----------



## SwitchFX

Razer's product quality has suffered over the years. I use an older Razer at work; IT department gave it to me. It's a decent, solid built product. It's also quite old. Two years ago I checked out some of their higher end products. I could have crushed the unit with one hand if I wanted to. That along with this ridiculous, unneeded and invasive move by Razer is a joke. This is how a company can unravel at the seams, gentlemen.


----------



## makesithappen

Quality these days is hard to come by even when you pay good money. It's absolutely disgusting. On topic that's really terrible. This is a reason why I still use my old lachesis. They sure don't make them like they used to!


----------



## Captain1337

Why do I have to register and make an account for a damn mouse? What's next, register online in-order to use a mouse pad?


----------



## i_hax

Apart from the fact that I don't install mouse drivers, this ends my Razer 'loyalty'. I haven't owned anything but Deathadder's for about the past 6 years, but this is too far. My original one is heavily worn (I wore through 3 sets of feet on it using cloth mousepads) but still works. When and if they fail, I will not purchase Razer products again.

Any company that forces users to create an account and log in to use a driver is not one I will purchase products from.


----------



## channelx99

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ntPxdWAWq8 Very well could have been about Razer and how clueless they are about their customers


----------



## akromatic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> A little related would be WindowsLIVE for Gaming.
> I installed new Windows 8. Logging back into Batman Arkham Asylum and Batman Arkham City I have to log into my *Microsoft Windows LIVE Game* software in order to play the games since it's a freshly formatted system. I had forgot my LIVE account profile where I used to sign in. It would not allow me to play the game. So I set up another one Windows LIVE Game account however I cannot get the game to start because even though I have my registration codes for the games I cannot complete the process by signing into the 'original' account where I registered my game codes. Now I'm in a catch 22 where I cannot play two games I purchased until I figure out what account was the original.
> So even though there is no data mining, I'm being forced into a software program just to be able to play and if you don't have that info will be locked out of playing my own game I purchased. Same scenario without data mining. I wish this forced sign up in order to obtain usage of a product purchased would stop as well. It's not just Razer Synapse 2.0 because this started a longer time prior to this.


but you fail to realize despite you paid for the game, you do NOT own it. you have only been licensed to use it and the game only identifies you via your account.

more and more stuff you buy yet you do not have ownership of it


----------



## gEEKaDE

Why anyone would buy into Razer's garbage beats me. Logitech's mice been around for a long time, true and tried. Razer is made of the same plastic and they charge you 3x more for their items because of what? Materials? Design? No, because they spent so much on marketing and there's always people like the OP that fall for their crap.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

I find it amazing how people do honestly not understand how marketing/manufacturing a product works. You all pretend to understand you know how marketing works, ever thought that if everyone agreed that logitech was the best then Razer/Madcatz/Corsair all would not be in the peripheral business? Companies who wholeheartedly lie to their customers don't last long anyways. IE Enron.


----------



## icehotshot

Wasn't there a post here on OCN about a fake Razer mouse?

Maybe this is to stop mouse pirates.....lol


----------



## Vonnis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thedark1337*
> 
> I've been through 3 deathadders because it is the most awesome mouse ever with its sensor. Y'all can all be paranoid while I still will buy Razer


If I had gone through three mice of the same model, I'd start questioning the build quality and look for alternatives. Just saying.


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vonnis*
> 
> If I had gone through three mice of the same model, I'd start questioning the build quality and look for alternatives. Just saying.


Well I have a Mamba 2 yrs old I just gave my kids and its the best wireless mouse Ive owned. 2ms 6400 DPI dual sensor 8 hr battery life span. The new Ourborous is 1ms 8200 DPI 12 Hr battery span. Logitech G700 5600 DPI is a good wireless mouse but lousy battery life that was too short and I sold it for the Razer in a leap of faith. It proved itself to me and changed my mind about Razer. Different experience yields different feelings about the product.

I digress.....The quality / performance isn't the topic of the thread however. The discussion is Synapse 2.0. and data mining.


----------



## prava

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> Thank you for the link and clarifying one of our questions on how Synapse 2.0 can work offline: Source


Which means that if you are offline, the software works offline too... not that you can turn it off when you are online, which you can't.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Hey look I was right all along!


No, you weren't. This thing is mining data as long as you are connected to the internet.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Hey all. There is quite a bit of confusion out there on what Synapse 2.0 is and what it does. We've got some information here on our CEO's FB page that may clarify some of the confusion.
> https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan
> For people using our older products who do not wish to use the new software, we have re-uploaded our legacy drivers. http://www.razersupport.com/downloads


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Legacy drivers are available if you don't want to use Synapse. Our CEO clarified that we're only collecting your user settings and we're working to make a more robust offline mode for Synapse.


There is no misunderstanding since the TOS and privacy policy is clear as a day. Such policy states 3 different kinds of information and how Synpase 2.0 mines all of them, with different regards... but all of them nonetheless.

All in all, Synapse 2.0 is bad for everyone and good for no one but Razer. I don't see the point in using Razer products with such "features", seriously.


----------



## gEEKaDE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SniperTeamTango*
> 
> Companies who wholeheartedly lie to their customers don't last long anyways. IE Enron.


That's why companies like Razer only lie most of the time, just not all the time. To give you just enough truth to keep you hanging and make your money.


----------



## Deo Domuique

Hell... I just bought a Deathadder. Tomorrow I'll return it, but what to get... That store hasn't many options for gaming mice. Only Roccat and I know nothing about.

Seriously, before I see this thread, one hour ago installed Synapse 2.0 and the first thing I tried to find was "Go to Offline Mode" -but... surprise! Incidentally, can this program tell what's the firmware and drivers I use?

Would be ok if I create a rule in Windows Adv Firewall for RzSynapse.exe to block outbound connection? I don't want this thing to keep trying to connect while I'm playing... This program needs a PERMAMENT offline mode, not just "go to offline" like the freakin' Origin everytime you need to re-apply it.


----------



## alpsie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> Thank you for the link and clarifying one of our questions on how Synapse 2.0 can work offline: Source


So for people whining about it "tracking" you when online.
why dont you just denie it internet acess then? oh right, wouldnt be able to whine then.


----------



## Deo Domuique

I blocked Rzsynapse.exe & RzupdateManager but still connects normally... uhm... why? :S

It goes red some times, then back to green. Meanwhile I log-in/log-out normally.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alpsie*
> 
> So for people whining about it "tracking" you when online.
> why dont you just denie it internet acess then? oh right, wouldnt be able to whine then.


Aside from the fact that we shouldn't have to and the entire problem is equally a matter of principle and not wanting to support such practices as much as it is about privacy, most people wouldn't even be aware that this is going on if they didn't carefully read the TOS or weren't a part of a tech community. Even if they did or were, that doesn't mean they necessarily know how to block programs.

Just because the issue isn't important to you doesn't mean that anyone who says something about it is whining.


----------



## mnkeyprince

i was just about to get an Ourborous too, dang it

oh well, logitech makes some pretty nice mice


----------



## kornedbeefy

Anyone know exactly what you need to put in your firewall settings to block outbound? I tried the Synapse.exe but not sure that is it.


----------



## sebkow

Just go SteelSeries , better Quality of product anyways unless you like the colour green?


----------



## k1llj0y

Say what you want, still easily one of the most comfortable and popular mouse is the death adder.
Had a death adder for a long time then got the black edition when it came out. Never had a single problem with it.

Tried so many mice from roccat/steelseries/logitech/ mad catz and none have been as comfortable as the death adder or the old naga.


----------



## The Protege

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Hey all. There is quite a bit of confusion out there on what Synapse 2.0 is and what it does. We've got some information here on our CEO's FB page that may clarify some of the confusion.
> https://www.facebook.com/minliangtan
> For people using our older products who do not wish to use the new software, we have re-uploaded our legacy drivers. http://www.razersupport.com/downloads


I uninstalled Synapse after reading this thread, but cannot get my mouse to work using the legacy drivers uploaded by Razer. I believe I tried loading drivers 2.02, 2.03, 3.02, and 3.03. Each time I launch the configuration tool, I get a message that "No Naga Mouse Detected. Application will close" and the mouse continues to behave as a regular PnP mouse, which is as good a uselss to me.

Doing all of this on a Naga Molten (not 2012 or epic). Did anyone else have this problem? Any workarounds? I don't want to ditch an awesome mouse just because the manufacturer decided to farm me for data.

Edit: If this doesn't get resolved relatively quickly, I'm probably going to ditch the Naga and grab a G600. This is BS.


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alpsie*
> 
> So for people whining about it "tracking" you when online.
> why dont you just denie it internet acess then? oh right, wouldnt be able to whine then.


Or even easier, just don't buy their stuff...


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> *Legacy drivers are available if you don't want to use Synapse*. Our CEO clarified that we're only collecting your user settings and we're working to make a more robust offline mode for Synapse.


These are the kinds of half-truths that people have problems with. Either you guys are misinformed about your own products or you are being intentionally vague or just outright dishonest here. Yes, legacy drivers exist, unless you are using any new model razer mouse (naga hex, 2012, Ouroboros, Taipan, etc.), those mice do not have any legacy drivers at all. So no, you can't necessarily use legacy drivers if you don't want to use Synapse.

Maybe you should tell people "you can use legacy drivers as long as you don't buy any of our current product offerings", but I'm sure that would hurt sales quite a bit.

Wait until a really popular model comes out and you don't have legacy drivers for it (ie. the deathadder 4g), this place will go nuclear when hordes of people rush to the new deathadder and don't have any way to use 'regular old drivers'.

People also need to realize that Razer has intentions of _all_ of their hardware to use Synapse 2.0+ going forward. Keyboards, Mice, Headsets, etc. It's a unified driver structure. They've obviously sunk a ton of R&D into this Synapse structure and they are going to cling to it to the bitter end, until their sales are affected, or their public image is hurt enough.


----------



## TheGlow

I wouldn't mind Synapse as much if it did what it is supposed to do.
my Black Widow Ultimate rebinds/macro settings dont do anything. bind to naga 2012, alls fine. Bind to A key on Black Widow, nothing.
Rebind a legit key like Q to R, still types Q's.
Updated firmware to mysterious version number with no changelog.
When done, told me I went from 1.084 to 2.03.
Still macros dont work.
All was fine with old 1.04 drivers. I see the "legacy" is version 1.05 so I will try that tonight out of curiosity.
Also annoying sidenote, I tried using the profile auto switching for the Naga since I cant use the widows key binds.
On game launch it seems the act of applying a profile forces the game to minimize.
I dont know about you, but I'm sure we've all played a game or 2 that when you alt-tab/windows key out, it does NOT play nicely coming back.
Full screen crashes, rendering issues, etc. I have to ctrl-shift-esc the task manager, start typing the name of the games exe and hope it actually highlighted it and hit alt-e.
If synapse did what it was supposed to do, offer just more profile/keybinds with the option to upload to the cloud, and did everything legacy did, good.


----------



## RazerCult

I wanted to pass along an update in case some haven't seen or heard. A manual offline option is coming for Synapse: http://j.mp/TQjtkc
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prava*
> 
> Which means that if you are offline, the software works offline too... not that you can turn it off when you are online, which you can't.
> No, you weren't. This thing is mining data as long as you are connected to the internet.
> There is no misunderstanding since the TOS and privacy policy is clear as a day. Such policy states 3 different kinds of information and how Synpase 2.0 mines all of them, with different regards... but all of them nonetheless.
> All in all, Synapse 2.0 is bad for everyone and good for no one but Razer. I don't see the point in using Razer products with such "features", seriously.


The only data that's being collected is your name, email, and user settings. You can even use a fake name and email address, it's only so we can link your settings back to your product(s).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deo Domuique*
> 
> Hell... I just bought a Deathadder. Tomorrow I'll return it, but what to get... That store hasn't many options for gaming mice. Only Roccat and I know nothing about.
> Seriously, before I see this thread, one hour ago installed Synapse 2.0 and the first thing I tried to find was "Go to Offline Mode" -but... surprise! Incidentally, can this program tell what's the firmware and drivers I use?
> Would be ok if I create a rule in Windows Adv Firewall for RzSynapse.exe to block outbound connection? I don't want this thing to keep trying to connect while I'm playing... This program needs a PERMAMENT offline mode, not just "go to offline" like the freakin' Origin everytime you need to re-apply it.


We've got a manual offline mode in the works: http://j.mp/TQjtkc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The Protege*
> 
> I uninstalled Synapse after reading this thread, but cannot get my mouse to work using the legacy drivers uploaded by Razer. I believe I tried loading drivers 2.02, 2.03, 3.02, and 3.03. Each time I launch the configuration tool, I get a message that "No Naga Mouse Detected. Application will close" and the mouse continues to behave as a regular PnP mouse, which is as good a uselss to me.
> Doing all of this on a Naga Molten (not 2012 or epic). Did anyone else have this problem? Any workarounds? I don't want to ditch an awesome mouse just because the manufacturer decided to farm me for data.
> Edit: If this doesn't get resolved relatively quickly, I'm probably going to ditch the Naga and grab a G600. This is BS.


Make sure you've got the latest legacy driver: http://j.mp/ZeXXa1 Our support can help you out if you've got any other questions www.razersupport.com/email Again, the only data we're collecting is your name, email, & user settings. Feel free to use a fake name and email for your account, just as long as you can reference it so we can connect your settings back to your products.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGlow*
> 
> I wouldn't mind Synapse as much if it did what it is supposed to do.
> my Black Widow Ultimate rebinds/macro settings dont do anything. bind to naga 2012, alls fine. Bind to A key on Black Widow, nothing.
> Rebind a legit key like Q to R, still types Q's.
> Updated firmware to mysterious version number with no changelog.
> When done, told me I went from 1.084 to 2.03.
> Still macros dont work.
> All was fine with old 1.04 drivers. I see the "legacy" is version 1.05 so I will try that tonight out of curiosity.
> Also annoying sidenote, I tried using the profile auto switching for the Naga since I cant use the widows key binds.
> On game launch it seems the act of applying a profile forces the game to minimize.
> I dont know about you, but I'm sure we've all played a game or 2 that when you alt-tab/windows key out, it does NOT play nicely coming back.
> Full screen crashes, rendering issues, etc. I have to ctrl-shift-esc the task manager, start typing the name of the games exe and hope it actually highlighted it and hit alt-e.
> If synapse did what it was supposed to do, offer just more profile/keybinds with the option to upload to the cloud, and did everything legacy did, good.


Is your Synapse up to date? Also, our support can help you get things running www.razersupport.com/email


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> I wanted to pass along an update in case some haven't seen or heard. A manual offline option is coming for Synapse: http://j.mp/TQjtkc
> The only data that's being collected is your name, email, and user settings. You can even use a fake name and email address, it's only so we can link your settings back to your product(s).


Since you seem to be an official source, perhaps you can explain what is meant by your TOS when it mentions "habits" and "usage patterns" in its definition of "aggregate information", which it says is both collected and shared information.

"Name, email, and user settings" don't appear to cover those terms.


----------



## BulletSponge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> Since you seem to be an official source, perhaps you can explain what is meant by your TOS when it mentions "habits" and "usage patterns" in its definition of "aggregate information", which it says is both collected and shared information.
> "Name, email, and user settings" don't appear to cover those terms.


En Garde Razer! +rep


----------



## eternal7trance

I would still like to know if you guys are getting rid of onboard memory in future mice.


----------



## TheGlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> Is your Synapse up to date? Also, our support can help you get things running www.razersupport.com/email


Magically this is now working. I plugged in my old naga to get ready for uninstalling Synapse and testing the legacy when Synapse prompted to update Naga converter and configurator.
I figured Id let it humor itself, said yes.
After 4 mins of it sitting at 5% I figured it froze. Kill the task, reran Synapse which prompted me again.
I said yes, and this time it went through in under a minute.
Popped up and none of the Blue naga keys were working. But I do recall it stating 2 nagas simultaneously wasn't supported.
Understandable, who'd use 2 mice anyway.
I check keyboard one last time, NOW macros and on the fly macro recording work.
Unplugged blue naga and plugged back in, now those keys work.
I dunno. Now if only they could prevent the auto profile switching from minimizing... it might be semi tolerable.

Edit: seems profile switching now works. Maybe it was all a side effect of my not having latest Keyboard firmware.
But perfect example. They say Synapse isnt required when in this case because of a pending firmware update, they then block previously working features.
Either that or plugging in this extra Naga jump started some driver issues.
As it appears now, all is working as expected.


----------



## un-midas touch

http://www.overclock.net/t/1325385/pc-razer-ceo-responds-to-mouse-drm-debacle/0_40


----------



## eternal7trance

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1325385/pc-razer-ceo-responds-to-mouse-drm-debacle/0_40


I wish people would read the thread before posting something that was already posted.


----------



## SniperTeamTango

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> I wish people would read the thread before posting something that was already posted.


I know right.


----------



## MSim

The kind of offline mode we want is the old way of saving profiles on the device and the old software that doesn't have anything to do with the cloud dialing home every chance it gets.
Logitech mice i don't have any problems with, they don't force us to register before we can use the damn thing. Razer CEO needs to get his head out of his ass and do the right thing.


----------



## Onex

This does not bode well for razer. Shame.


----------



## bojinglebells

cloud storage for driver profiles is an interesting idea, however it is folly to rely upon, and ultimately feels like a cop-out for not wanting to put onboard memory in order to save a buck on their end (ie Razer Taipan is still $80 MSRP and yet is otherwise an inferior product to their previous $80 range products such as the Lachesis because it does not have the onboard memory and instead completely relies on Synapse 2.0 for full feature access)

ultimately, Synapse 2.0 is disappointing (if not also somewhat nefarious) for 2 reasons (and this is assuming any potential "data mining" isn't malicious either):

1. it helps Razer milk more profit out of their products without truly benefiting the end user (if they _eliminate_ onboard memory in favor of cloud like we've seen so far with the Taipan, it should at least reduce cost, but we haven't seen that yet)

2. it helps get Razer software onto more PCs because it becomes a "necessity" for full feature access, which in turn helps sell future Razer products (think Steam)

IMO the ideal product is one that is near 100% configurable and ready to use straight from the mouse itself where all you have to do is plug it in and it works the way you want it to. Razer mice with onboard memory are ok because you can at least uninstall the software after you have configured it the way you want, or at least it will work the way you want on the next computer you plug it into without having to worry about installing drivers...Although onboard memory alone is still not quite as ideal as say the Xai/Sensei where you can configure the mouse on the fly without interfacing software. The Razer Abyssus (my current mouse of choice) is also a good solution as it has mechanical dip switches for configuring at least a few DPI settings and polling rates, but ultimately lacks the degree of configuration you'd want with a more advanced mouse.

Cloud synchronized drivers are ok as long as its _purely_ supplemental, otherwise I am not anxious to use any product that _requires_ it for using any feature beyond the absolute basics.


----------



## Kaldari

I think it's funny how the Razer rep regurgitates what the CEO says, which doesn't clarify a thing, but he won't answer what's actually at the core of 90% plus of the thread.

Since they refuse to answer a short question that's to the point, I'll assume they don't have an answer.

*edit*

I'll pose it again so a claim can't be made that it was overlooked.

Quote:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> I wanted to pass along an update in case some haven't seen or heard. A manual offline option is coming for Synapse: facebook.com/ph...
> The only data that's being collected is your name, email, and user settings. You can even use a fake name and email address, it's only so we can link your settings back to your product(s).
> 
> 
> 
> Since you seem to be an official source, perhaps you can explain what is meant by your TOS when it mentions "habits" and "usage patterns" in its definition of "aggregate information", which it says is both collected and shared information.
> 
> "Name, email, and user settings" don't appear to cover those terms.
Click to expand...


----------



## Thedark1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vonnis*
> 
> If I had gone through three mice of the same model, I'd start questioning the build quality and look for alternatives. Just saying.


I stay true to it because of the sensor it uses. One of the best still used in it, I believe it was Avago? And I don't think I want to spend more money on a different mouse, my 3rd one has lasted me a year and a half now


----------



## eternal7trance

I like how they keep avoiding my question on facebook yet they answer the ones around me.

Is it really that hard to say, "Yes our mice will still have on board memory in the future" or "No we are getting rid of that."

The explanation suggests that they want to for price reasons. No way in hell I will buy a mouse with no on board especially a naga.


----------



## MSim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> I like how they keep avoiding my question on facebook yet they answer the ones around me.
> Is it really that hard to say, "Yes our mice will still have on board memory in the future" or "No we are getting rid of that."
> The explanation suggests that they want to for price reasons. No way in hell I will buy a mouse with no on board especially a naga.


Razer policy is to force customers to make an account no matter what, they will not say "we are bring back storage on the device".
The only way to get Razer to bring back storage on the device is to get as many ppl we can to boycott all razer products until they listen and do the right thing.


----------



## prava

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RazerCult*
> 
> The only data that's being collected is your name, email, and user settings. You can even use a fake name and email address, it's only so we can link your settings back to your product(s).


Stop lying, the terms we all have to agree with upon installation of Synapse 2.0 refer to everything you do on the computer, with the only specifics that it separates those things and information you have on your computer and differentiates them depending on how private the information being handled is.

There is no restriction for any information regarding habits, patterns and anything not regarding PERSONALLY to you... and still, any personal private information has very little restrictions since the policy itself specifies that partners of Razer can handle such information.

So, stop with this crap. You are lying all along as what you say is not what the TOS and policy covers... which I'd imagine goes first than any of your comments anywhere. At least don't try to think we are stupid, because we don't.

PS: and Synapse 2.0 only has an offline mode... because of the fuss there has been around this for the past week. If nobody would have complained there wouldn't be any offline mode and people would be data mined all day long. Now at least you aren't being data mined all day... but still you can (per TOS and policy) and the fact that you need a DRM program to make 100% use of a physical good that you pay a premium for it is... worrying.


----------



## Deo Domuique

It's the few apologists who pop-out of nowhere and the majority which consumes whatever without second thought. The bread and butter of corps.

I really appreciate that OP started this and all other who helped spread. Such things is one of the last lines of defense -in order to stop Corps treating us like bags of beans. I'm ignorant paranoid and believe in conspiracies and UFOs, but I'll take it instead; sorry that it causes some guys to get mad.

Personally if I was in the shoes of those who think they can enlighten us all, I'd have taken a second thought and remain silent until it gets solved. What, for instance in this case, people want, is not something that is going to hurt me anyway ( especially for those cases that on the contrary, I can only benefit if proved correct ).


----------



## Nightbird

This is disturbing, I was going to buy a razer mouse but not anymore, I don't buy the cloud argument. Just have enough memory on the mouse for a few things and offer cloud as an OPTIONAL feature.


----------



## [email protected]

After reading information on this, i ain't worried but the only thing i am angry right now is Synapse servers. I cannot even install drivers for my Keyboard at all.

They need to release previous drivers and get rid of Synapse 2.0 because i cannot login and i cannot create a profile for my Black Window Ultimate keyboard.

My drivers work for my mouse though.

Now i need a new mouse due to the fact i made a huge mistake replacing my mouse feet and my tracking is a bit off sometimes so i have to get a new one but undecided at the moment.

Tempted to return to Logitech. Have not had that mouse in years though.

Razer has been good to me though. Never had problems!

EDIT UPDATE:

Upon research here is the answer.

http://www.tested.com/tech/accessories/451160-razer-mouse-requires-internet-connection-set/

Also explained why servers weren't working that day too. Hurricane Sandy has affected most servers.

However the rest of the article is a interesting read what they said about data mining.


----------



## TerminatorXPS15

Well damn. I wanted to revert from Synapse to the legacy drivers, since I was initially unaware of this data-mining thing, but Razer's left this note on their legacy driver for the standard BlackWidow: "Please note: Once you have used the Razer BlackWidow with Razer Synapse 2.0, you will no longer be able to use legacy drivers."


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eternal7trance*
> 
> I wish people would read the thread before posting something that was already posted.


I make no apologies when most of everything here is just a troll war. Anyway to me this all boils down to saving cost to increase profit. No need to increase onboard memory or streamline profile config settings if they just make storage localized. Again I don't care if I missed something that was already said.

It's really a shame either way, since people are paying a premium in the first place. No excuse for them in my opinion, for who is going to use the software without the hardware?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> I make no apologies when most of everything here is just a troll war. Anyway to me this all boils down to saving cost to increase profit. No need to increase onboard memory or streamline profile config settings if they just make storage localized. Again I don't care if I missed something that was already said.
> It's really a shame either way, since people are paying a premium in the first place. No excuse for them in my opinion, for who is going to use the software without the hardware?


At least one person figured it out







Razer can basically streamline a few specific types of Microcontrollers without need to configure memory regardless if the hardware is capable or not.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TerminatorXPS15*
> 
> Well damn. I wanted to revert from Synapse to the legacy drivers, since I was initially unaware of this data-mining thing, but Razer's left this note on their legacy driver for the standard BlackWidow: "Please note: Once you have used the Razer BlackWidow with Razer Synapse 2.0, you will no longer be able to use legacy drivers."


Improbable without a firmware update. I suppose synapse updates after use.


----------



## Darkpriest667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> At least one person figured it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Razer can basically streamline a few specific types of Microcontrollers without need to configure memory regardless if the hardware is capable or not.
> Improbable without a firmware update. I suppose synapse updates after use.


your firmware gets automatically updated when you install synapse 2.0 its the first thing it does. Once you're in you can't get out. I cant even get synapse to update but uninstalling it.. HAH I have a brick for a keyboard and a mouse.

I loved razer. Until about a week ago. I'll never buy from them again.


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darkpriest667*
> 
> your firmware gets automatically updated when you install synapse 2.0 its the first thing it does. Once you're in you can't get out. I cant even get synapse to update but uninstalling it.. HAH I have a brick for a keyboard and a mouse.
> I loved razer. Until about a week ago. I'll never buy from them again.


I'm lucky enough where both the Anasasi keyboard and Mamba mouse which are two years old works on their individual software they came with still. Each pre-loads at windows start up offline with macros enabled fully functional. What happened to the good old days?

Have a new question: Won't updating firmware or future software upgrades require Synapse 2.0 to go back online? For all we know data could be stored and sent as a batch file once ET dials home.


----------



## ____

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> Have a new question: Won't updating firmware or future software upgrades require Synapse 2.0 to go back online? For all we know data could be stored and sent as a batch file once ET dials home.


I think batch files are scripts. I hope Synapse doesn't sent as a plaintext, that would be...bad.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darkpriest667*
> 
> your firmware gets automatically updated when you install synapse 2.0 its the first thing it does. Once you're in you can't get out. I cant even get synapse to update but uninstalling it.. HAH I have a brick for a keyboard and a mouse.
> I loved razer. Until about a week ago. I'll never buy from them again.


It won't do it on all current versions of the Deathadder due to another reason.









I'm quite disappointed that they're cutting corners in areas that most brands will offer, though I do find a lot of the backlash quite idiotic. Whatever, I'm not in it.


----------



## Pip Boy

this mess could literally destroy the whole company


----------



## mechati

Waiting for monitors to have same feature








You can use any other resolution (and color







) ONLY after going through the online setup.
In case of no internet connection you can enjoy our STANDARD 800x600 monochromatic display









O.T.
Glad I didn't buy razer. Still enjoy my G9.


----------



## prava

Funny thing is that some people compare this data mining to others such as Google or facebook... heck, I wouldn't care if OCN did it, why? OCN provides us with a service for no monetary cost at all. So, a counterpart to this free-of-charge service would be no problem but...

...in a mouse? That is very expensive to start with?


----------



## [email protected]

Does anyone here have drivers for Black Window Ultimate Mechanical keyboard? Mines the 2011 backlit version.

I tried Synapse and i just cannot login at all. Servers not working on their end or something?

I have drivers for Razer Mamba older version but i don't have drivers for the keyboard. Anyone?

I might have older drivers burned on my cd somewhere.


----------



## action3500

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mechati*
> 
> Waiting for monitors to have same feature
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can use any other resolution (and color
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) ONLY after going through the online setup.
> In case of no internet connection you can enjoy our STANDARD 800x600 monochromatic display
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O.T.
> Glad I didn't buy razer. Still enjoy my G9.


It might sound funny, but it's not. It's getting out of control.

What's next? Imagine cars with feature like that. They know how fast you go, where you go (they can map location to stores, gas stations, etc), financial arm of manufacturer will know how much you make. I am okay with no privacy online notion . . . but no privacy at home, on the road, in bedroom . . . that's scary.


----------



## TheGlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> 
> Does anyone here have drivers for Black Window Ultimate Mechanical keyboard? Mines the 2011 backlit version.
> I tried Synapse and i just cannot login at all. Servers not working on their end or something?
> I have drivers for Razer Mamba older version but i don't have drivers for the keyboard. Anyone?
> I might have older drivers burned on my cd somewhere.


Go to the site, they "Unhid" all the old drivers.
It should say legacy, and when you dl, should be 1.05 drivers.
Note the fine print, IF you did run Synapse, it will say you have a pending firmware update for the keyboard. It will NOT have any kind of changelog. It will BLOCK ALL features until you install said firmware update.
If you update, you CANNOT run legacy drivers anymore.
This doesn't seem to apply for my Blue Naga, but sure's **** got me in the ass for the keyboard, so now I can't roll back if I wanted to.
I like how the rep asked if I had firmware 2.03. I said how the **** should I know, Synapse doesn't report your current firmware, nor does it supply information on what version is pending or a changelog on why. So on that note changelog should just say:
v2.03: Broke legacy compatibility, force sucker customer to use Synapse 2.0


----------



## hesho

what i find most sad out of all this, in the grand scheme of things, i can see more companies moving towards this direction....


----------



## DeTeWe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hesho*
> 
> what i find most sad out of all this, in the grand scheme of things, i can see more companies moving towards this direction....


Yes... and I think one has to be "strict" and not let them get through with that. So Razer implements an offline mode? Why? Because everyone cried out loud. And they say "we save nothing but your email and name".. for how long? Next year there is an update, and you either buy a new mouse, stick with the old driver (in case you aren't forced to update, remember they first removed all legacy drivers) or agree that they monitor whatever they want. And they will do it more silent, more sneaky, so few enough people notice it and they can stay with it.

*Byebye Razer, Steelseries/Roccat here I come*







(Until these companies screw as well..).


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeTeWe*
> 
> Yes... and I think one has to be "strict" and not let them get through with that. So Razer implements an offline mode? Why? Because everyone cried out loud. And they say "we save nothing but your email and name".. for how long? Next year there is an update, and you either buy a new mouse, stick with the old driver (in case you aren't forced to update, remember they first removed all legacy drivers) or agree that they monitor whatever they want. And they will do it more silent, more sneaky, so few enough people notice it and they can stay with it.
> *Byebye Razer, Steelseries/Roccat here I come*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Until these companies screw as well..).


Mouse companies could become the next gatekeepers of consumer tracking. Imagine a mouse that can track where you're clicking, 24/7.


----------



## Kaldari

I'm not opposed to cloud syncing of profiles at all. The issue is the implementation. Save everything as an INI file locally, and then have the client attempt to sync it with the "cloud" at user-determined intervals, including manual syncing and having the option to turn off syncing entirely. Do this at face value without any shady terms in their TOS and nothing subversive in their actual software, and I'll be perfectly fine with the whole thing.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> Do this at face value without any shady terms in their TOS and nothing subversive in their actual software, and I'll be perfectly fine with the whole thing.


Said the man who invented fine print.


----------



## [email protected]

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGlow*
> 
> Go to the site, they "Unhid" all the old drivers.
> It should say legacy, and when you dl, should be 1.05 drivers.
> Note the fine print, IF you did run Synapse, it will say you have a pending firmware update for the keyboard. It will NOT have any kind of changelog. It will BLOCK ALL features until you install said firmware update.
> If you update, you CANNOT run legacy drivers anymore.
> This doesn't seem to apply for my Blue Naga, but sure's **** got me in the ass for the keyboard, so now I can't roll back if I wanted to.
> I like how the rep asked if I had firmware 2.03. I said how the **** should I know, Synapse doesn't report your current firmware, nor does it supply information on what version is pending or a changelog on why. So on that note changelog should just say:
> v2.03: Broke legacy compatibility, force sucker customer to use Synapse 2.0


Yea i am using Synapse and it worked now. Now i have no problems. Sucks we're forced to use it if we wanted new products from them. Not sure if i am ready to leave Razer yet cuz i never had problems but i still think it'd be nice if they stop making these anyways. Annoying to see command prompt messages when installing Razer drivers. I don't like not seeing what is being installed though but i trust them anyways because we're customers and we can sue if we find a leaked information which i doubt we will.


----------



## TheGlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> 
> Yea i am using Synapse and it worked now. Now i have no problems. Sucks we're forced to use it if we wanted new products from them. Not sure if i am ready to leave Razer yet cuz i never had problems but i still think it'd be nice if they stop making these anyways. Annoying to see command prompt messages when installing Razer drivers. I don't like not seeing what is being installed though but i trust them anyways because we're customers and we can sue if we find a leaked information which i doubt we will.


The shame is that they are a hardware company and I like the hardware.
Then they manage to jack it up from the software perspective.


----------



## Robrain

I've been looking up mouse reviews and was planning on purchasing a Naga Epic during the sales...

I'm absolutely stunned by how stupid Razer could be to make this kind of a decision.

This reminds me very closely of the Western Digital MyBook External Hard Drives debacle, involving their sudden inclusion of "WD SmartWare software", a Virtual CD program that installed itself whenever you plugged in the external hard drive.

Basically it was an unremovable partition on the external hard drive that not only ate up HD space that you couldn't get back, but caused a Virtual CD Drive to appear under My Computer whenever you plugged it into your computer. The problem was compounded if you had more than one of them plugged in at the same time, because then multiple Virtual CD Rom drives would litter your My Computer screen (one for each external hard drive).

Reformatting the external hard drive couldn't even get rid of it - it was hardware locked in some crazy manner. It was on everything (and probably still is) from their most basic "MyBook Essential" line of external hard drives, all the way to their top-of-the-line Professional series.

Upon learning that the company was going to provide no way to disable the software, I promptly returned my drive for a refund, and have never directly purchased a Western Digital product since then. That was ~2010.

This lunacy that Razer is performing with unnecessary software locks is an outrage. Seriously, how much on-board storage space can you possibly need for some drivers and customized configurations? 512MB? 1GB at most? There's absolutely no truth for saying that the reason is to "reduce cost for the consumer" - that little bit memory can be gotten for such a small amount that it should be a complete non-issue.

I'm definitely not buying a Razer product now until this issue is completely removed. There's plenty of other companies selling mice and other peripherals that don't have ridiculous restrictions and invasive software.

Razer: you just broke something that didn't need fixing in the first place. You're not only screwing your customers, you're screwing yourself too.


----------



## tpi2007

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robrain*
> 
> This lunacy that Razer is performing with unnecessary software locks is an outrage. Seriously, how much on-board storage space can you possibly need for some drivers and customized configurations? 512MB? 1GB at most? There's absolutely no truth for saying that the reason is to "reduce cost for the consumer" - that little bit memory can be gotten for such a small amount that it should be a complete non-issue.


The issue is even more ridiculous than that. Razer's CEO said in a reply on one of his own posts on Facebook that it takes.. get this... *128 kilobytes* of storage to store the profiles and macros for a normal gamer, and up to *1 megabyte* for a hardcore gamer.

There is absolutely no justification for this. Just as there was no justification for Cisco routers to only allow you to configure them if you logged into their cloud.


----------



## Robrain

I guess I should expect my next pair of Nike shoes to not allow me to lace them up until I register them online, if this trend continues...

Or the adjustable band on my baseball cap to not be adjustable until I register it online.

Or my new belt to not buckle until I register it online.

Cause that makes sense.


----------



## DeTeWe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robrain*
> 
> I guess I should expect my next pair of Nike shoes to not allow me to lace them up until I register them online, if this trend continues...
> Or the adjustable band on my baseball cap to not be adjustable until I register it online.
> Or my new belt to not buckle until I register it online.
> Cause that makes sense.


You forgot you will have to tell your car manufacturer where you are going to and how fast u plan to do that. And he has the right to sell it to (to the government or private speed trap companies, whoever pays more).

Next: Keyboards recording every keystroke!


----------



## softgrip

Well, I've signed up here just to vent -

My black widow ultimate no longer goes to "gaming mode" with fn + F11. That does nothing. Also, all the pages in synapse for my keyboard give fatal errors.

My deathadder works great, and the config pages work for that - but all the handy functionality (macros etc) is now stuffed for my keyboard.

Also, if I terminate Synapse, then boot my keyboard in the bootloader mode (hold FN down) - then my keyboard functions correctly after the firmware has redownloaded.

BUT when I press "finish", and synapse starts again, the gaming mode/macros are gone.

I'm not against synapse in principle, but the execution of this piece of software is ridiculously substandard.


----------



## maznetau

I've signed up because this has actually generated a lot of attention that I wouldn't have thought likely.

Anyway. Instead of just complaining about this, I figured I was a capable software developer and I'll have a look into how this all works and my question is:

What features do we want / not want in the razor software?

I feel like a sucker for getting this blackwidow mechanical keyboard after finding that the OTF macro recording cannot remove pauses, so i'll fix that one for myself.
Maz


----------



## MSim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maznetau*
> 
> I've signed up because this has actually generated a lot of attention that I wouldn't have thought likely.
> Anyway. Instead of just complaining about this, I figured I was a capable software developer and I'll have a look into how this all works and my question is:
> What features do we want / not want in the razor software?
> I feel like a sucker for getting this blackwidow mechanical keyboard after finding that the OTF macro recording cannot remove pauses, so i'll fix that one for myself.
> Maz


We don't want the software to dial home upload all the data mining. We want the old method of saving profiles on the device. Razer CEO is out of touch with gamers, he needs to stop taking advice from bean counters.


----------



## ____

Congrats, TotalBiscuit just talked about this thread.


----------



## Fantasy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *____*
> 
> Congrats, TotalBiscuit just talked about this thread.


I didn't see this thread until I watched TB video LOL


----------



## rmstallman

With software, either the users control the program or the program
controls the users. To control the program, users need to be free to
work together studying and changing the source code, then use their
own version. The clue that this program can't be trusted is that they
won't let you and your associates do that.

In other words, it is not free/libre software. (See
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html.)

Malfeatures like this are common among nonfree software.
See http://www.bostonreview.net/BR33.2/stallman.php.


----------



## Deo Domuique

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tpi2007*
> 
> The issue is even more ridiculous than that. Razer's CEO said in a reply on one of his own posts on Facebook that it takes.. get this... *128 kilobytes* of storage to store the profiles and macros for a normal gamer, and up to *1 megabyte* for a hardcore gamer.
> There is absolutely no justification for this. Just as there was no justification for Cisco routers to only allow you to configure them if you logged into their cloud.


They don't even provide CD anymore. I was trying to find the CD when I unpacked the mouse, but... futile! Go figure...

A guy said, "look better, it should be there 'cause I bought that mouse too and there was CD". I was trying to figure if my box had opened before or something, until I realised they don't provide it anymore.

Give me PERMANENT offline mode, at least. Every time I boot the popup window is extremely annoying. Also, Firmware & Drivers version report would be plus... I can't even find the scroll-wheel adjustments, but anyway.


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deo Domuique*
> 
> *They don't even provide CD anymore.* I was trying to find the CD when I unpacked the mouse, but... futile! Go figure...
> A guy said, "look better, it should be there 'cause I bought that mouse too and there was CD". I was trying to figure if my box had opened before or something, until I realised they don't provide it anymore.
> Give me PERMANENT offline mode, at least. Every time I boot the popup window is extremely annoying. Also, Firmware & Drivers version report would be plus... I can't even find the scroll-wheel adjustments, but anyway.


A lot of mouse companies don't offer CD software anymore. My Steel Series Sensei Fnatic (top dollar mouse) came without a CD as well. Have to download directly from the company website for drivers or supporting software is more and more normal every day with hardware products.


----------



## SquallPT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *softgrip*
> 
> Well, I've signed up here just to vent -
> My black widow ultimate no longer goes to "gaming mode" with fn + F11. That does nothing. Also, all the pages in synapse for my keyboard give fatal errors.
> My deathadder works great, and the config pages work for that - but all the handy functionality (macros etc) is now stuffed for my keyboard.
> Also, if I terminate Synapse, then boot my keyboard in the bootloader mode (hold FN down) - then my keyboard functions correctly after the firmware has redownloaded.
> BUT when I press "finish", and synapse starts again, the gaming mode/macros are gone.
> I'm not against synapse in principle, but the execution of this piece of software is ridiculously substandard.


The Blackwidow Ultimate wont go to gaming mode because you, probably, have synapse closed. I'm saying this because I have one and if you dont have synapse opened the keyboard shortcuts for enabling the gaming mode and switching between lighting modes will not function, thats why I dont like synapse as well, you should be able to use all the functions and shortcuts on the keyboard even if the software is closed. Before synapse it worked ok with all the previous software closed.


----------



## maznetau

I cant choose where to store the profiles. Unfortunately that'll just be on a single machine unless I add a button to manually trigger a sync to their 'cloud'? I'm working on having a "check for updates" button too so that I can remove that annoying popup every time my pc starts.

No offline / cd driver is a pain in the ass. When I bought my new keyboard, the server was down. I was unable to even get the ****ty spyware drivers for most of a day.


----------



## softgrip

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SquallPT*
> 
> The Blackwidow Ultimate wont go to gaming mode because you, probably, have synapse closed. I'm saying this because I have one and if you dont have synapse opened the keyboard shortcuts for enabling the gaming mode and switching between lighting modes will not function, thats why I dont like synapse as well, you should be able to use all the functions and shortcuts on the keyboard even if the software is closed. Before synapse it worked ok with all the previous software closed.


Thanks for the reply - I do have Synapse open. If I try to get to any of the tabs to configure the keyboard, I get application crashes.

Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: RzSynapse.exe
Application Version: 1.6.1.10587
Fault Module Name: RazerConfigNative.dll

Works great for my mouse, and rubbish for my keyboard


----------



## Promark747

.


----------



## Promark747

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeTeWe*
> 
> You forgot you will have to tell your car manufacturer where you are going to and how fast u plan to do that. And he has the right to sell it to (to the government or private speed trap companies, whoever pays more).
> Next: Keyboards recording every keystroke!


If you are using Onstar they know everywhere you been, how fast you did it and g forces from sudden stops. It still sends data even if you cancelled your subscription.


----------



## TheByt3

lol this post was on last days Content Patch




At 10:13


----------



## Cpt.Jeff

How exactly do I set Synapse to offline mode?


----------



## Carniflex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cpt.Jeff*
> 
> How exactly do I set Synapse to offline mode?


There should be that "uninstall" button somewhere that does that.


----------



## [email protected]

Well i didn't know you could do that to set it offline. I was wondering about that too. I swear to god something is controlling my Synapse because i seen my mouse DPI go up itself for no reason but it could be just because i pressed the dpi sens button or someone on Synapse servers are actually hacking?

Paranoid? Maybe and maybe not.

It's nice to have macros but do we really need Synapse servers?

I still don't see offline mode though? Would be nice if someone can show us specifically what to do to make that work?


----------



## Deo Domuique

There's no solid, permament offline mode. That's it. And after all this, they still won't give us the choice. They count on the fact that we will forget it.

There's an article on Ars Technica that says "20% of sites may sell data". This only means there's a huge demand for, and why Razer should stop making extra money?

I wake up Sunday morning, I open my PC and it's like I have to give report to Razer -"Officer [email protected], reporting for duty, sir!"


----------



## solongrazer

Hi there all... Just made an account with www.overclock.net to share my thoughts on this topic.

I have been using a Razer Ironclad mousepad, Razer Anansi keyboard and even drinking from a Razer gaming flask (opportunity buy lol)... was all good until i saw Synapse 2.0 on a Razer product and looked it up.

Once seeing it was spyware bull****, i immediately went online and bought a Roccat Isku keyboard, Roccat Sense mousepad, and binned my drink flask. I do not condone ANY company that believes in spyware and over reaching EULA's.

I then emailed the following to Razer 24 hours ago... No reply yet - not even a generic one.

"*Hi there,

My name is X and over the past 12 months I have purchased several Razer products:

-Razer Ironclad mousepad
-Razer Anansi keyboard
-Razer drink flask

For a while now I have enjoyed these products.

Recently I looked into "Synapse 2.0" and was disgusted by what I saw.

I am already tired of the ridiculous state of DRM and copyright in this world surrounding software, and when I read the article linked below I was very disappointed in Razer.

http://betanews.com/2012/11/08/razer-synapse-2-0-is-a-good-idea-gone-wrong/

Hardware DRM and requiring user registration to access full features of your product is a very bad idea. It gives gamers the feeling Synapse 2.0 is spyware or that our details will be sold on to marketing / advertising companies. I only keep accounts with my ISP & an email address through my ISP to try to maintain at least some level of anonymity online and reject any attempts to data mine my personal details.

I feel so strongly about this I literally went onto www.pccasegear.com and bought a Roccat Isku gaming keyboard, a Roccat Sense mousepad and threw my Razer drink flask in the bin. When my Roccat products arrive I will be binning the Razer products on principle alone. I will not stand for data mining of personal info, spyware or DRM.

Just to humour the idea of Synapse 2.0 "cloud" features - All gamers I know including myself game on one computer at home, in one location. We do not take our mouse and keyboard to other locations making this feature seem ridiculous and I doubt many will use it.

I will leave it at that for now, thank you for reading!

X.
*

Bad move Razer, i hope it costs you big time. You have lost me as a customer for life and i spend a few grand a year on gaming gear.

Peace out all, thanks for reading.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *solongrazer*
> 
> Hi there all... Just made an account with www.overclock.net to share my thoughts on this topic.
> 
> I have been using a Razer Ironclad mousepad, Razer Anansi keyboard and even drinking from a Razer gaming flask (opportunity buy lol)... was all good until i saw Synapse 2.0 on a Razer product and looked it up.
> 
> Once seeing it was spyware bull****, i immediately went online and bought a Roccat Isku keyboard, Roccat Sense mousepad, and binned my drink flask. I do not condone ANY company that believes in spyware and over reaching EULA's.
> 
> I then emailed the following to Razer 24 hours ago... No reply yet - not even a generic one.
> 
> "*Hi there,
> 
> My name is X and over the past 12 months I have purchased several Razer products:
> 
> -Razer Ironclad mousepad
> -Razer Anansi keyboard
> -Razer drink flask
> 
> For a while now I have enjoyed these products.
> 
> Recently I looked into "Synapse 2.0" and was disgusted by what I saw.
> 
> I am already tired of the ridiculous state of DRM and copyright in this world surrounding software, and when I read the article linked below I was very disappointed in Razer.
> 
> http://betanews.com/2012/11/08/razer-synapse-2-0-is-a-good-idea-gone-wrong/
> 
> Hardware DRM and requiring user registration to access full features of your product is a very bad idea. It gives gamers the feeling Synapse 2.0 is spyware or that our details will be sold on to marketing / advertising companies. I only keep accounts with my ISP & an email address through my ISP to try to maintain at least some level of anonymity online and reject any attempts to data mine my personal details.
> 
> I feel so strongly about this I literally went onto www.pccasegear.com and bought a Roccat Isku gaming keyboard, a Roccat Sense mousepad and threw my Razer drink flask in the bin. When my Roccat products arrive I will be binning the Razer products on principle alone. I will not stand for data mining of personal info, spyware or DRM.
> 
> Just to humour the idea of Synapse 2.0 "cloud" features - All gamers I know including myself game on one computer at home, in one location. We do not take our mouse and keyboard to other locations making this feature seem ridiculous and I doubt many will use it.
> 
> I will leave it at that for now, thank you for reading!
> 
> X.
> *
> 
> I know their is a lot of apathy when it comes to spyware/drm/data mining in this world (otherwise facebook wouldnt be so huge) ... but i feel gamers are the most intolerant when it comes to this. We are generally smarter with computers and more aware of the sinister motives of these business practices. (Console "gamers" don't count here - almost as apathetic as facebookers).
> 
> Bad move Razer, i hope it costs you big time. You have lost me as a customer for life and i spend a few grand a year on gaming gear.
> 
> Peace out all, thanks for reading.


Uhhhh, welcome to the forum.









First post and now first rep. That's an insane ratio bro. You must lift.


----------



## Darkpriest667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> Uhhhh, welcome to the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First post and now first rep. That's an insane ratio bro. You must lift.


actually 2 to 1 is insane ;-)

Look, I own a BW Ultimate and a DA ... Windows 8 boots up great. Except one thing. (and it did so terrible on windows 7 sometimes the program wouldnt even load) Synapse. The stupid thing actually causes windows 8 to hold on loading for 20 seconds to up to 2 minutes before it will let me start accessing programs. I dont know what the heck its reading and sending but its something!

I checked in the startup processes and if you disable it(synapse). Your keyboard and mouse wont work. I had to plug an old Logitech K 120 Keyboard and a throw away mouse to reset the settings. turning synapse into offline mode? It still is a high impact startup process. Its doing something funky.


----------



## TheGlow

I loved my naga. Got a bwidow ultimate, loved it.
saw a naga 2012 on sale for 40. forced to use synapse 2.
Been in hell since.
I even tried forcing the keyboard firmware down from 2.03 to 1.08. Says successfully, pc wont recognize anymore unless I connect in bootloader mode


----------



## Notwist

I too just joined to throw in my thoughts, which differ only slightly.

For me, I'm ultimately most frustrated by the response given by the CEO. As multiple posters previously stated, there are just so many parts of his statement which are completely untrue. Outright, blatant lies, like his bit on memory constraints and costs, or his own self-contradicting comments on how its fully functional out of the box, but to make it fully functional you need to do x, y, etc.

The biggest flaw, however, is the overarching sentiment that onboard memory/local configuration, and cloud based storage must be mutually exclusive. If Razer REALLY lived by their mantra, "For Gamers, By Gamers", and their company mission statement to develop cutting edge products without holding back, they would have simply updated Synapse with cloud syncing if you chose to make an account (maybe get some other perks too, like pro-gamer settings or whatever). Simple.

But to then respond with obvious falsities, then try spinning it as "we're doing this for YOU GAMERS!", and actually think we're stupid enough that we would accept those kinds if answers? That's f-ing insulting.

Tl;dr : I can deal with poor company decisions, I have a much harder time when a company treats its customers like idiots they can feed blatant lies to. Companies like that don't deserve my business.

...Oh yea, and happy to be a part of the Overclock community!!!


----------



## Jodiuh

This is honestly hilarious as a friend of mine just picked up the 2013 DA despite myself and another pimping our $20 G400's.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *action3500*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mechati*
> 
> Waiting for monitors to have same feature
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can use any other resolution (and color
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) ONLY after going through the online setup.
> In case of no internet connection you can enjoy our STANDARD 800x600 monochromatic display
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O.T.
> Glad I didn't buy razer. Still enjoy my G9.
> 
> 
> 
> It might sound funny, but it's not. It's getting out of control.
> 
> What's next? Imagine cars with feature like that. They know how fast you go, where you go (they can map location to stores, gas stations, etc), financial arm of manufacturer will know how much you make. I am okay with no privacy online notion . . . but no privacy at home, on the road, in bedroom . . . that's scary.
Click to expand...

Strangely that happened, or something similar with a Westinghouse lcd I got for my in-laws. The tv tuner was disabled by default. They force you to go to their website and register the lcd, then you can activate the tuner. What the hell? Why would you have to do that to enable something you just paid for?


----------



## Stickeelion

Razer, you lost me as a customer before I even was one.

$10 Microsoft optical mice FTW


----------



## Jopel

Was looking for a gaming headset these day's, was in doubt between a Creative one and one of Razer.
Guess it is clear now since I'm allergic for methods like this...


----------



## bad_haze

Actually I had a Deathadder. When I first heard of this Synapse monitoring stuff I went and bought a new Gigabyte gaming mouse. Not only is it better, I don;t have to worry about this monitoring stuff. Bye Razer! I'm never buying your products again. My wallet and money will always remain separated from your company. And I'll be letting all my friends know as well







Have a nice fall.


----------



## [email protected]

Funny how it's only 49 people here discussing about this product and while there's still millions of gamers out there that still use Razer and isn't gonna make any difference out of 49 people in this forum.

Yes i do use Razer products and yes i don't like the idea of the software crap they have but i like the mouse and keyboard cuz they are simply designed to be the best gaming products today used for PC games.

They helped me become a better gamer. I would LOVE to try SteelSeries cuz i never tried it but i hate the thought of getting rid of my mechanical keyboard since it has backlit lights and most keyboards out there don't have lit keyboards. I gotta have lights on them cuz i am always on my desktop at night time.

I got no choice but to stay with Razer for the time being.

But i also notice my gameplay improves with Synapse running but i do think they need to update their software where it DOESN'T require a connection cuz it's just silly if you wanna set your DPI settings and etc.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> 
> Funny how it's only 49 people here discussing about this product and while there's still millions of gamers out there that still use Razer and isn't gonna make any difference out of 49 people in this forum.


There are plenty of OCN members who have read this thread and made a purchasing decision without ever posting in it. There are also multiples more who find this thread through aggregated search results. Large topics like this always make a mark when they're discussed on OCN. This thread was the main reason Razer started their PR push. This thread was linked and reported about on quite a few tech sites. To say that it only affects those that are posting and actively discussing the topic is ridiculous.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> 
> But i also notice my gameplay improves with Synapse running


----------



## BreakDown

I had a deathadder before, now i have an original mamba which is starting to get loud button presses, i suspect the buttons will die soon. I was going to replace it with the new mamba, but i wont anymore. Most likely, razer lost me as a customer.


----------



## Pheatton

I assume I dont need to software to actually use the mouse?


----------



## Jodiuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jopel*
> 
> Was looking for a gaming headset these day's, was in doubt between a Creative one and one of Razer.


Neither of those are good options. In fact, they're both horrible choices. Let me help.

1. USB DAC | sound card (see head-fi.org for list)
2. Sony V6 (w/ Beyerdynamic DT250-80 replacement ear pads | Audio Technica A900x | AKG Q701 & amp (see head-fi for list)
3. Antlion Modmic
4. Enjoy good | better | best sound/mic experience

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> 
> Funny how it's only 49 people here discussing about this product and while there's still millions of gamers out there that still use Razer and isn't gonna make any difference out of 49 people in this forum.


Then get loud. Post on Facebook, tell your friends, hand out flyers to folks in a grocery store, scream it @ cars passing by your local intersection. Get a bullhorn, make a difference.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaldari*
> 
> There are plenty of OCN members who have read this thread and made a purchasing decision without ever posting in it. There are also multiples more who find this thread through aggregated search results. Large topics like this always make a mark when they're discussed on OCN. This thread was the main reason Razer started their PR push. This thread was linked and reported about on quite a few tech sites. To say that it only affects those that are posting and actively discussing the topic is ridiculous.


All good points. Though I wouldn't necessarily call another's opinion "ridiculous" if that's all they know.


----------



## zalbard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pheatton*
> 
> I assume I dont need to software to actually use the mouse?


Nope, you don't. You need it for DPI switching, though. Apparently one can still save DPI settings and uninstall the software, though.


----------



## Jodiuh

IIRC, my Deathadder 3.5G would only run @ 1000 hz if the Razer software was running. Please correct me if I'm wrong though!


----------



## DoomDash

I don't understand why they can't have an option to have it offline. It's just not that big of a deal.


----------



## Pheatton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zalbard*
> 
> Nope, you don't. You need it for DPI switching, though. Apparently one can still save DPI settings and uninstall the software, though.


Hmm I havent used a mouse that could change the DPI on yet so I may not need it. If I do then its going back to BestBuy.

Knew I should have bought another Logitech...


----------



## Starbomba

Is this thread still alive?

I'm happy with my DA. While i do agree the always-on stuff is not good, i'm using the offline driver for it, and i'm getting even more customization options than the Synapse software.


----------



## Gigatel

This news was the reason why I ditched my Deathadder. I'll never buy another Razr keyboard or mouse. I'll stick to Logitech, whose software I personally prefer.


----------



## zalbard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoomDash*
> 
> I don't understand why they can't have an option to have it offline. It's just not that big of a deal.


They do. You still have to create an account first, though.


----------



## knd775

Why does this thread keep going, and going, and going? It should have died months ago. It's been discussed to death, and people feel how they feel. It doesn't need to be pushed back through the news feed.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *knd775*
> 
> Why does this thread keep going, and going, and going? It should have died months ago. It's been discussed to death, and people feel how they feel. It doesn't need to be pushed back through the news feed.


Not everyone catches a story when it's originally posted. Unsubscribe and don't click the link in the feed if you don't want to read it anymore. Easy enough.


----------



## Jodiuh

I was thinking the same thing. It JUST came to my attention yesterday and it gives me ammo to fire off @ my local LAN friend who JUST bought a new Deathadder.


----------



## Kinaesthetic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> 
> Yes i do use Razer products and yes i don't like the idea of the software crap they have but i like the mouse and keyboard cuz they are simply designed to be the best gaming products today used for PC games.


Except......they aren't designed to be the best gaming products used for PC games. There are so many cheaper and FAR better options to choose from. That statement of yours is just purely from their marketing.


----------



## Jodiuh

Not 100% on topic, but here's a thousand words:


----------



## Pheatton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Starbomba*
> 
> Is this thread still alive?
> 
> I'm happy with my DA. While i do agree the always-on stuff is not good, i'm using the offline driver for it, and i'm getting even more customization options than the Synapse software.


How did you setup this up?


----------



## Starbomba

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pheatton*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Starbomba*
> 
> Is this thread still alive?
> 
> I'm happy with my DA. While i do agree the always-on stuff is not good, i'm using the offline driver for it, and i'm getting even more customization options than the Synapse software.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you setup this up?
Click to expand...

Just select what you have to the right of the screen on this site, then just narrow down the results until you have the drivers section, then look for the legacy driver for that device.

Some stuff will *not* have a legacy driver, like the DA 2013, but most of it will have a legacy, non-synapse driver, like my DA Black, which has a legacy driver for both PC and Mac.

Here's how the driver looks for my DA Black.


----------



## un-midas touch

How 'bout premium headphones that play advertisements intermittently?

(probably shouldn't give them any ideas)


----------



## GrizzleBoy

I like the arbitrary addition of the phrase "always on" for extra impact.

Oh wait.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrizzleBoy*
> 
> I like the arbitrary addition of the phrase "always on" for extra impact.
> 
> Oh wait.


There's nothing arbitrary about it. There are ways of mining data without a real-time drip feed.


----------



## GrizzleBoy

You missed the "oh wait"


----------



## Pheatton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Starbomba*
> 
> Just select what you have to the right of the screen on this site, then just narrow down the results until you have the drivers section, then look for the legacy driver for that device.
> 
> Some stuff will *not* have a legacy driver, like the DA 2013, but most of it will have a legacy, non-synapse driver, like my DA Black, which has a legacy driver for both PC and Mac.
> 
> Here's how the driver looks for my DA Black.


Thanks guess thats not an option for my 2013 version of the DeathAdder. I'll have to take a look and see what I don't get with the software then decide.


----------



## Jodiuh

I'll tell you what you get. You get what's arguably the very best FPS mouse in existence. I've held/used one and came away w/ rapid heartbeat.


----------



## Kaldari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jodiuh*
> 
> I'll tell you what you get. You get what's arguably the very best FPS mouse in existence. I've held/used one and came away w/ rapid heartbeat.


I wish computer peripherals got me that excited..


----------



## TheGlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Starbomba*
> 
> Just select what you have to the right of the screen on this site, then just narrow down the results until you have the drivers section, then look for the legacy driver for that device.
> 
> Some stuff will *not* have a legacy driver, like the DA 2013, but most of it will have a legacy, non-synapse driver, like my DA Black, which has a legacy driver for both PC and Mac.
> 
> Here's how the driver looks for my DA Black.


Or in the case of my BlackWidow Ultimate, macro keys didnt work with new Synapse, which I needed for my 2012 naga.
Then you update the firmware, surprise, it blows an efuse or something because now you cant downgrade the firmware.
Oh sure, it says it's installing, and completes. But PC wont detect it anymore and need to reinstall the latest.


----------



## X-Nine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jodiuh*
> 
> I'll tell you what you get. You get what's arguably the very best FPS mouse in existence. I've held/used one and came away w/ rapid heartbeat.


Uuuuh, what?


----------



## Jodiuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XNine*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Jodiuh*
> 
> I'll tell you what you get. You get what's arguably the very best FPS mouse in existence. I've held/used one and came away w/ rapid heartbeat.
> 
> 
> 
> Uuuuh, what?
Click to expand...

The slow frequency and shape of the Razer logo when lit by a green LED causes the bionic parts in my heart to sync and speed up. This is only an issue on the 1st and 3rd Wednesdays of the month. It's a rare condition and not at all contagious, so I wouldn't be too worried if this doesn't make sense to you.


----------



## Traphix

They now have an offline mode that works perfectly fine, and you can change it to online, or keep it offline and manually check for updates.

Source: I have a 2013 Naga, and 2013 Blackwidow Ultimate Stealth.


----------



## Defoler

If people want a software-less mouse with zero issues, but an old HP usb mouse with two buttons, and you are done. Never breaks down, never lets you down, never desert you, never break your heat.

I almost threw my G510 and G13 keyboards out of the window because of the crappy logitech software which I'm so very happy to get rid of.
Also note that logitech are using something similar to the razer software. It uploads your key maps and macros to their servers.

I have yet to encounter the perfect mouse with the perfect software attached to it.


----------



## linkin93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zalbard*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Pheatton*
> 
> I assume I dont need to software to actually use the mouse?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, you don't. You need it for DPI switching, though. Apparently one can still save DPI settings and uninstall the software, though.
Click to expand...

Funny that, my G700 still has all my settings in it from my previous build, I haven't installed all the software yet, just the basic drivers, and all my mapped functions still work fine... and the mouse has dedicated DPI buttons that work without the software. It works wirelessly without the drivers as well.


----------



## ElevenEleven

I was browsing Amazon and saw Naga Molten, and thought "hmm, this is right up my alley--love the look and all the buttons". Spent 30 minutes reading reviews, and found out about Synapse and also some terrible RMA service and came here to see what people are saying. For those who claim this thread has lived out its purpose--I disagree. The OP is informative and encompasses a good portion of over 100 1-star Amazon user reviews. The more people know, the better.

I'm glad my CM keyboard has software that I ran once, reprogrammed some keys and made macros, loaded them into the keyboard, and never ran the program again--that's how it should be. Razer products will now have to be off my radar =/


----------



## Anarion

I use my Naga 2 years now. I'm an mmo player so I chose this mouse for the side buttons. I was happy with the old driver but this Synapse **** I don't like it and I found out that after some time it stops working and I need to close it and open again to make it work. I will never buy a Razer product ever again.


----------



## mutantmagnet

Wow. I didn't realize this was a thing. Thanks to the OP.


----------



## mrawesome421

It's funny how many posts end in this thread with "I will never purchase another product from Razer again."


----------



## Anarion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrawesome421*
> 
> It's funny how many posts end in this thread with "I will never purchase another product from Razer again."


It's not funny at all when I bought the 1st Naga and was faulty within 2 months of use the left click button broke and I went back to store and they replaced my Naga with a new. For an expensive mouse like this those issues are not funny. Now this thing with the driver. It's not even working properly. The old driver was ok. But this cloud based driver sucks. Back then I had no other choice of a mouse with side buttons. So it's not funny at all. Bad quality and bad services from Razer.


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## LatinLover

*Too late for me.
Synapse not just consume too much memory ram. I found out synapse increase my internet ping.
When i closed synapse, my ping decrease from 16 to 10.
My last mouse was a cm inferno, that mouse caused me a lot of lag.
I like my deathadder 2013 BE, run smoother and no lag, but what we can do with the software...*


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## Carniflex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *linkin93*
> 
> Funny that, my G700 still has all my settings in it from my previous build, I haven't installed all the software yet, just the basic drivers, and all my mapped functions still work fine... and the mouse has dedicated DPI buttons that work without the software. It works wirelessly without the drivers as well.


Correct me if I'm wrong, have not looked for a while, but G700 is supposed to have onboard memory to keep the settings. Although I think you need that gaming software installed if I remember correct to change the profiles stored in the G700 memory. The only downside of G700 is, I think, relatively low battery life when running at 1000 Hz in wireless mode, but the battery is interchangeable so as long as you have box of spare batteries at hand should not be the major problem. Also wireless reception tends to drop a bit once the battery hits red.

As far as Razer's mouse being "the best of them all" .. well thats matter of opinion. They are flashy but from my rather limited experience with them I have a feeling that you are not quite getting the quality sometimes which you would expect from the price tag. Then again I'm sure you can find some bad apples in every company basket.

Even with the offline mode supposedly added, at last, I'm suspicious towards Razer for at least few years to come. Showing that kind of stuff down the consumer throat does not fly well. Privacy with the net cable plugged in is an illusion, but thankyouverymuch, I already have enough companies datamining me so I dont need my mouse also report for one more company what kind of .. uhh .. "adult sites" I happen to visit.


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## Defoler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LatinLover*
> 
> *Too late for me.
> Synapse not just consume too much memory ram. I found out synapse increase my internet ping.
> When i closed synapse, my ping decrease from 16 to 10.
> My last mouse was a cm inferno, that mouse caused me a lot of lag.
> I like my deathadder 2013 BE, run smoother and no lag, but what we can do with the software...*


Right...
Razer software increased your ping. A very reliable story.
I have already seen several tests around. Synapse does not go online except on the initial start to check for updates, and when you change your macros. Offline mode eliminate those as well.


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## ghost2501

nvm


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