# For everyone with airflow questions about the Fractal Design Define R4



## Masters

Hey guys,

I actually saw a few questions about the R4 case and airflow in it. I thought I'd share what I've learned through a bit of trial and error with it.

First, I have tried both positive and negative airflow in this case. All fans I use are 140mm. All fan slots on the case were used.

Second, one thing I noticed that REALLY helped airflow is to remove BOTH hare drive cages. Now if you have alot of drives, this may not be for you, but the hard drive cages really impede airflow.
The bigger cage is easy enough to remove. But many people don't know you can remove the bottom one. There are 4 screws on the bottom keeping it on. As well as two more screws you can only gain access too if you remove the front cover.

Negative airflow, I only had the front two fans in the front as intake, the rest were all exhaust.

This actually resulted in higher temps. since there is hardly any cool air coming in. Not only did this make the inside of the case really hot, all that was exhausting was very hot air, which made my room a sauna.

Positive airflow, ALL fan slots were intake (And had dust covers on the, including the tops and sides), except the back which was exhaust.

Now with all that airflow coming in and in between the components, you'd think the airflow would be bad. But actually it's pretty good. What I did was move the video card to the lower PCI-E 16x slot so it was as close to the bottom intake fan as I could. Doing this created a sort of air tunnel with the bottom intake, and the bottom front intake. This air gets heated up and either natually gets exhausted out the back PCI covers, or makes it's way up to the top and gets exhausted.

The top portion of the case has the top front intake making direct airflow towards the CPU cooler, which goes through it, and out the back. Now the top two fans, atleast on my MB, are positioned just so that each fan covers both sides of the CPU cooler. What makes this nice is the right fan, over the CPU intake, blows cool air DIRECTLY towards i letting it get even move fresh air. Heres where I found was a nice little bonus, the intake fan on the exhaust side of the CPU, blows cool air directly onto the hot air being exhausted from the CPU cooler. What this does it slightly lower the temp of the air, so when it finally exhausts right next to the CPU cooler, the air isn't hot, it's only slightly warm. NO ROOM SAUNA!

Now is this optimal? No. Could I get slightly better temps if I work better at it? Yes.

But the way it is now, I have nice CPU temps. 41 idle, 52 load. (Will vary with CPU cooler), and the air coming OUT of my computer isn't hot enough to heat up my room.

As well since I'm using low speed fans the sound from all these fans isn't even that loud. Just a low hum in the background. Only thing I'd really hear over everything else is my GPU cooler when I'm playing games.

Hope this helps!

Also for which fan's I've used.

Front two are the two fans that came with the system. Bottom and side fans are a pair of Spectre Pros, and the two top ones a pair of Gelid Wing 14. Stock fans are running at max speed, Spectres and Gelids are running at 7v. CPU fans are a push/pull of Corsair SP120.


----------



## neo0031

Nice guide, + Rep. I haven't got the case (yet, perhaps) but useful nonetheless.

Now since you actually have so much info there (relatively), maybe some pictures of test setup, or even graphs (OCN loves graphs and charts) may help even more fellow Define R4 owners or to be owners.

/random rant.


----------



## Masters

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neo0031*
> 
> Nice guide, + Rep. I haven't got the case (yet, perhaps) but useful nonetheless.
> 
> Now since you actually have so much info there (relatively), maybe some pictures of test setup, or even graphs (OCN loves graphs and charts) may help even more fellow Define R4 owners or to be owners.
> 
> /random rant.


Not really all that good at that kind of thing, testing methadology etc. I can make a really bad microsoft paint drawing. But it's really just all 140mm fans as intakes, with only the rear one as exhaust.

The negative, where only the front two fans are intake, gives slightly worse temps and just makes your room into a sauna like I said.

I'd just been trying for weeks since I got the case to find out the best way to make the air coming out of the exhaust to be as cool as possible.

With all that air coming in, and only really one way for it to get out, the cool air not only cools down the components, but it cools the hot air already in the case.

Now if you want to be a perfectionist and get the airflow in this case JUUUST right, you probably could. I just found this seemed the best way to not only keep my computer cool, but me too.

Heres my really bad drawing



If you use the right fans, it can still be pretty quiet.


----------



## AlphaC

http://www.overclock.net/t/628569/official-noctua-nh-d14-club/2770#post_18359129

^ with 2x NF-A15s on the NH-D14 and NF-A14s instead of Nf-P14s would probably be better , or at least TY-147s

In my opinion:

* Middle HDD cage removed

* 2 front intake (with static pressure for the filters ... such as NF-A14 or TY-147)

* bottom intake

* side intake (EVGA blowers)/exhaust (dual axial fans) depending on GPU

* CPU cooler with front to back orientation in twin push for Phanteks/Silver Arrow/NH-D14 or push pull if a single tower , the exception is for short GPU setups with low <100W TDP GPUs like HD7750 or GTX 650 ... you may run the CPU cooler to push air up instead of front to back as per hardwaresecrets

* rear exhaust

rear top exhaust or top front intake depending on if you have a single or dual tower (basically you don't want the exhaust fan on top of the intake for the heatsink , usually better for front top intake so long as there is no exhaust recirculation into the front top intake)

And then from there you can change your PCI-E slot covers to higher flow ones like the Silverstone Aeroslots http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999181




The fan situation is highly dependent on where the case is placed. If you have a foot of clearance on top of the case to the underside of the desk and very little room behind it, it is HIGHLY likely hot air will recirculate if you use the front top intake position.

If your computer is on top of the table with > 4 feet clearance to the ceiling then the top intake is a good proposition.


----------



## doyll

Bit-tech tested a Define R3 with 0x to 7x fans. Results were surprising
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/02/10/the-big-cooling-investigation/2


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Bit-tech tested a Define R3 with 0x to 7x fans. Results were suprising
> http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/02/10/the-big-cooling-investigation/2


forgot about that study








Quote:


> Generating heat inside the case was an Intel Core i5-2500K CPU overclocked to 4.5GHz (with a Vcore of 1.3V) and a Gainward GeForce GTX 560 Ti Golden Sample.


^ twin axial fan GPU
[email protected] ~110W TDP (bit-tech says ~130W for 5Ghz)
GTX 560 Ti ~ 170W TDP , 210W for 448 core one

So the GPU is the major heat producer
Quote:


> Cooling the CPU was an Enermax ETS-T40-TB cooler


Given that the R4 comes with 3 fans to start with this is the most interesting:
Quote:


> The graph below shows that the side panel fan still continues to have a massive positive effect on cooling, even with three fans installed - the three setups that performed the best in this test all included a side panel fan. They also all included either a roof or rear exhaust fan, which couples up well with our findings from out two fan testing that these mounts work well together.
> ...
> This is interesting as the fundamental setup remains the same (two intakes, one exhaust), indeed two of the fans are in identical positions. The benefits of the side panel fan are twofold though. Firstly, it provides airflow in an important area of the case and secondly, it helps to push the air pulled in by the front intake through the case - effectively it bridges the gap between the front and rear fans. It's a delicate balance though as the Front (L), Roof (B), Floor setup didn't perform nearly as well, despite being relatively similar.


For 4 fans there's a difference:
Quote:


> Four fans is also when the influence of the side panel fan begins to diminish; yes it was still used in the top performing layout, but it didn't automatically put a setup to the top of the pile like it did when only using one or two other fans. Part of the reason for this is because, as we mentioned earlier, four fans is enough to drive a fair amount of air through a case. As a result there is far less of a need for the side panel fan to act as a bridge between the front intakes and the rear exhausts.
> 
> What this means is that the more traditional front to back cooling model with two front intakes and a rear and roof exhaust has chance to reassert itself, scoring some very respectable results. This is because now the front and rear fans can link up and complement each other as with two of them on either end they finally have the punch to interact - something that was lacking with fewer fans.


Quote:


> 1. The amount of venting in your case can have a huge impact on cooling, particularly around the CPU area. If you have fan mounts here that are blocked up, unblock them.
> 
> 2. Generally, all other things being equal, it's better to get hot air out of your case than to pump cool air in, particularly when it comes to CPU cooling.
> 
> 3. If you have a roof mount that's located nearer the front of the case than the CPU cooler, leave it open. Fitting a fan here only causes problems.
> 
> 4. If you have one, two or three fans in your case, the side panel intake mount is the most important. Fill this first, followed by the rear exhaust mount, followed by the roof exhaust mount.
> 
> 5. Bear in mind the fact that fans have an effect on each other and use this to your advantage. For this to work though they need to be close enough to interact - a side intake works better with a rear exhaust than a front intake does for this reason.
> 
> 6. With four or more fans, concentrate on traditional front to back cooling and creating one strong, continuous air flow. Fill the front intakes and the roof and rear exhausts first.
> 
> 7. More fans does mean more cooling, but expect diminishing returns when going above three or four fans.


I think a major reason why front intake didn't do as much as side panel intake is they didn't seem to remove the middle HDD cage. It doesn't help that Fractal Design's stock 140mm fans are 1000RPM low static pressure fans with a max of 0.84 mm H2O (1.07 for the 120mm 1200RPM ones).


----------



## Masters

I actually removed BOTH hard drive cages.

I used velcro to attach my SSD behind the motherboard, and my main hard drive to the bottom of the case. The bottom HDD cage just blocks way too much.


----------



## Masters

The fan situation is highly dependent on where the case is placed. If you have a foot of clearance on top of the case to the underside of the desk and very little room behind it, it is HIGHLY likely hot air will recirculate if you use the front top intake position.

If your computer is on top of the table with > 4 feet clearance to the ceiling then the top intake is a good proposition.[/quote]

I'm a little lucky with my desk. My computer JUST fits under the back support beam of the desk. So the hot air has it's own little space to exhuast to. So it cant recirculate to the top fans.


----------



## TELVM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> ... And then from there you can change your PCI-E slot covers to higher flow ones like the Silverstone Aeroslots http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999181


Or even better, you can chainsaw the PCI slot bars







and shoehorn a 92mm fan in there.


----------



## ohhgourami

Can we get this stickied so we don't get asked how to plain out airflow for an R4 every damn day?


----------



## doyll

After setting up or guiding the setup of many Define R2/R3/R4 cases the best base setup is
* 2x front & 1x bottom good static pressure intake fans
* Case raised 20-30mm so there is 40-50mm bottom clearance for good airflow to bottom fans
* 1x rear exhaust
* Back top vent open
* Side intake or exhaust; dependent on best cooling
* With or without PCI slot covers dependent on best cooling

* A cheapo digital indoor/outdoor wired remote thermometer with a stiff insulated 15cm wire twisted into the end to help position sensor in front of CPU / GPU intakes.. and wherever else you want to check air temp in case.


Case cooling is probably the most important part of a build;.. and the most neglected by most builders. It's often more time consuming than overclocking.

Some may find this helpful. I post this basic but by no means complete tutorial often. It's a work in progress :


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



There is much more to cooling than good cases and good CPU / GPU coolers. Modern GPU's make more heat than CPU... and getting that heat out of the case can be a challenge.

Setting up the case to cool properly is the hardest and most time consuming part of a build... And the most neglected by most builders.

We need at least as much volume of air flowing through the case as the total of CPU and GPU fans flow through their coolers. If we do not have as much air coming into and going out of case as CPU and GPU coolers are passing through and heating up than some of that heated cooler exhaust has to be re-circulated through the coolers. This means the cooler run hotter because the air going through them is hotter.

Cases, especially those with filters, usually benefit from fans with higher static pressure ratings than stock fans... "cooler" fans instead of "case" fans.
Intakes are typically more restricted than exhaust; air filter, more restrictive grill, HDD cage, etc.
I prefer more intake than exhaust. And don't confuse number of fans with amount of airflow... or air*flow* with air*blow*

air*flow* is flowing cool air from intake to component and flowing hot air from component out of case without the hot air mixing with the cool air.

air*blow* is lots of fans blowing air with some of hot air from components mixing with cool air making it warmer resulting in warm air not cooling components as well as the cool air will.

Putting fans in case as intake and/or exhaust is only the first step. These fans only move air in and out of case.

This does not mean heated air is not mixing with cool air.

Nor does it mean cool air is going to where it is needed.

Getting the air to flow inside of case properly is even more important. We still need to manage where the air flows inside the case. We can do this several ways; deflectors, cooler intake fans, exhaust fans, removing vent grills, using fans with higher pressure/airflow, building ducts to or from CPU/GPU cooler, etc.

Using a remote temperature sensor to monitor what air temps are is the key to finding out where the cool air is flowing and knowing heated air is not mixing into it. By monitoring this we can than make changes to get airflow the way we want it.

I monitor the temps with a cheap indoor/outdoor wired remote or terrarium digital thermometer. Twist a piece of stiff insulated wire into the last 8" of sensor lead so you can bend it to position sensor where you want it... like 40mm in front of your GPU cooler/radiator intake.. to see what the air temp going into CPU / GPU cooler is compared to room temp. The closer it is to room temp the better.. Shouldn't be more 5c maximum, 2-3c is what I usually end up with after 30 minutes full load on both CPU and GPU.


----------



## JackCY

Intake, volume and pressure fans because of grills and filters.
Raise the case off the ground, the feet are way too small to provide any air from the bottom, the fans will only get loud and suck no air if the case is low to ground.

Front 2x intake
Bottom 1x intake if possible, often blocked by PSU or cage or both in my case ==> ghetto the fan there
Top front intake
Top rear exhaust
Rear exhaust
Rear slots, probably exhaust 80mm fan or even 92mm could fit
Side is weird, too high for GPU intake so it's a hit or miss to put that way or the other, intake would be nice but it probably works better in stock config as exhaust of hot air from GPU.
I use front, bottom and rear. With cage either rotated 90 degrees or removed. Surprised most people don't even know the front cage can be fitted in 90 degree position








Easy to change drives, just slide the drives out the front from the cage. Nicely guides air from front bottom fan to GPU as well.


----------



## doyll

Using 2x front and 1x bottom intake, especially if speed controlled like CPU and GPU fans, will keep everything nice and quiet.


----------



## Blameless

I need the back top as an intake, because that's where the bulk of my VRM heatsink is on my X79S-UP5. Without an intake in that position board and CPU temps are significantly higher on my setup.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JackCY*
> 
> I use front, bottom and rear. With cage either rotated 90 degrees or removed. Surprised most people don't even know the front cage can be fitted in 90 degree position


I didn't realize it could be rotated. Planned on removing it entirely once I'm done transitioning away from 3.5" drives, but currently I have no fan in this position as it makes my HDDs too cold (and because I had a top fan die, so the fan that was in the bottom front is now on the top).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JackCY*
> 
> [*] Side is weird, too high for GPU intake so it's a hit or miss to put that way or the other, intake would be nice but it probably works better in stock config as exhaust of hot air from GPU.


I find the side intake extremely useful for cooling GPUs. It's low enough to blow cool air across the back of a GPU in a lower slot, and almost ideally placed to blow air between two GPUs in CFX/SLI.

Might work as an exhaust if your GPUs are using axial fans, but most GPUs with reference blowers will benefit far more from having it as an intake.


----------



## doyll

@ Blameless
If you have good front intakes and a good bottom intake with case raised you should have no problem keeping everything cool.

Problem with using back top as intake is it is blowing air down and forward .. which is the opposite direction the airflow from front and bottom fans are supplying. What comes in must go out .. meaning we need as much area flowing air out of case as flowing in.









For me the best is having case fan speed controlled by CPU and GPU. I do this with all PWM fans but the new Phanteks PWM controlled variable voltage fan hub with PSU power means we can now control 3-pin fans with PWM signal too. 1st link in sig explains how to use PWM signal to control case fans.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @ Blameless
> If you have good front intakes and a good bottom intake with case raised you should have no problem keeping everything cool.


Board VRM is along the top edge (and only the top edge) of the board and my CPU pulls 220w+ through it. It gets hot enough to affect stability, and heat from the VRM noticeably increases CPU temps if I leave the top fans as exhaust. Flip them around to intake and they blow air directly at it, knocking at least 20C off the VRM and several C off the CPU.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Problem with using back top as intake is it is blowing air down and forward .. which is the opposite direction the airflow from front and bottom fans are supplying. What comes in must go out .. meaning we need as much area flowing air out of case as flowing in.


It all gets pushed out the back regardless, doesn't really have anywhere else it can go.

I've tried the top fans both ways. Having the back rear as exhaust or blocked off doesn't reduce temps anywhere, it just means I have virtually no direct airflow over the CPU VRM or the four populated DIMM slots behind my CPU.

In many situations where the R4 is used, I'd agree that the the rear top should be an exhaust, or just be left empty/blocked off. However, due to the layout of many LGA-2011 boards there are exceptions, and my situation is one of them.


----------



## doyll

I don't agree. You have 2x 140mm exhaust and 4x 140mm intake areas. That is twice as muicj intake area as exhaust area. Add to that back is exhaust, top back intake and top middle exhaust. The back and top exhaust are very likely being cycled back in the top intake. The top front exhaust is pulling air from front intake up and out the top. I would suggest removing all unused PCIe slot covers on the back and closing off the top front exhaust. This is educated guess from building several Define R2, R3 & R4 cases with automatic speed controlled case fans. All have case air temps nor more than 3-5c warmer than room under extended full load.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I don't agree. You have 2x 140mm exhaust and 4x 140mm intake areas. That is twice as muicj intake area as exhaust area. Add to that back is exhaust, top back intake and top middle exhaust. The back and top exhaust are very likely being cycled back in the top intake. The top front exhaust is pulling air from front intake up and out the top. I would suggest removing all unused PCIe slot covers on the back and closing off the top front exhaust. This is educated guess from building several Define R2, R3 & R4 cases with automatic speed controlled case fans. All have case air temps nor more than 3-5c warmer than room under extended full load.


I normally have six 140mm intakes (2x front, 2x top, 1x bottom, 1x side) and zero exhaust fans. Rear fan emplacement is empty and all slot covers are removed. Any air coming into the case leaves via these openings; it has no where else to go.

The top rear intake is likely pulling a small amount of warm air back into the case, but this air is still far cooler than the VRM heatsink, and cooler than the much lesser volume of air that was pulled across the heatsink from below when I had the top fans as exhaust. The top front intake cools the four DIMMs (contrary to popular belief, four fast, tightly packed, DDR3 DIMMs with limited ventilation can get quite hot during prolonged load) in front of the CPU, as well as providing the CPU heatsink with cold intake air. The air from the front, bottom, and side fans is mostly directed through and around the GPU(s).

I've tested several different configurations; this system's CPU, mobo VRM, GPU, and GPU VRM temps are all cooler with an all intake fan config.

Spot cooling is far more effective with blowing/pushing intakes than pulling/exhaust, for the same reason you can blow at your hand and feel it at arms length, but cannot feel air move across your palm while inhaling at the same rate unless you are almost covering your mouth. My fan setup spot cools everything of relevance, and still provides a largely unobstructed exit route for the heated exhaust.


----------



## ladcrooks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masters*
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> I actually saw a few questions about the R4 case and airflow in it. I thought I'd share what I've learned through a bit of trial and error with it.
> 
> First, I have tried both positive and negative airflow in this case. All fans I use are 140mm. All fan slots on the case were used.
> 
> Second, one thing I noticed that REALLY helped airflow is to remove *BOTH hare drive cages. Now if you have alot of drives, this may not be for you, but the hard drive cages* really impede airflow.
> ........


Agree big time - I always remove the hdd cages as I am 1 hdd user. Sure makes a difference to air flow whatever the case used


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ladcrooks*
> 
> Agree big time - I always remove the hdd cages as I am 1 hdd user. Sure makes a difference to air flow whatever the case used


One SSD and eight HDDs in my system... soon to be fourteen drives total (2x SSD, 12x HDD). I still need that bottom cage as two of my HDDs are currently 3.5".


----------



## ladcrooks

no hope for you then - joking


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> I normally have six 140mm intakes (2x front, 2x top, 1x bottom, 1x side) and zero exhaust fans. Rear fan emplacement is empty and all slot covers are removed. Any air coming into the case leaves via these openings; it has no where else to go.
> 
> The top rear intake is likely pulling a small amount of warm air back into the case, but this air is still far cooler than the VRM heatsink, and cooler than the much lesser volume of air that was pulled across the heatsink from below when I had the top fans as exhaust. The top front intake cools the four DIMMs (contrary to popular belief, four fast, tightly packed, DDR3 DIMMs with limited ventilation can get quite hot during prolonged load) in front of the CPU, as well as providing the CPU heatsink with cold intake air. The air from the front, bottom, and side fans is mostly directed through and around the GPU(s).
> 
> I've tested several different configurations; this system's CPU, mobo VRM, GPU, and GPU VRM temps are all cooler with an all intake fan config.
> 
> Spot cooling is far more effective with blowing/pushing intakes than pulling/exhaust, for the same reason you can blow at your hand and feel it at arms length, but cannot feel air move across your palm while inhaling at the same rate unless you are almost covering your mouth. My fan setup spot cools everything of relevance, and still provides a largely unobstructed exit route for the heated exhaust.


Sorry, but using 6x 140mm intakes in a case with 7x 140mm vents has major exhaust restriction. Not saying it's not working for you, but 6x 140mm fans have a combined flow area of 840sq cm opposed to one exhaust of 140sq cm. Granted, there is probably another 200sq cm exhaust vent on the back .. especially with PCIe slot cover removed. But that is still less thant half of the fan forced flow intake area .. and we need more free flow exhaust area than forced flow intake area to facilitate optimum airflow.
I guess my point is just because it works for you does not mean airflow is optimized.









Airflow is a fickled witch. She does things that often seem impossible on paper, but under close examination can almost always be figured out.









What fans are yoi using?


----------



## Wezzor

I am using x4 Noctua NF-P14s redux-1500 PWM fans (they're actually cheap). 2 front intake, 1 bottom intake and one rear exhaust. I've also removed both HHD cages. SSD is mounted behind the motherboard tray and the HDD is mounted in the 5.25 bay with a 3.5 to 5.25 bay adapter. My temperature is only 2°C above my room temperature in idle ofc. I havent tried yet removing unused PCI-E slots covers as doyll mentioned but I'll try it out soon and see if there is any difference.







I could also add that both my CPU and GPU is overclocked.


----------



## doyll

Removeing PCIe slot covers may not help .. and sometimes air ends up flowing in the back.









Fickled air witch does things like that :d


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, but using 6x 140mm intakes in a case with 7x 140mm vents has major exhaust restriction. Not saying it's not working for you, but 6x 140mm fans have a combined flow area of 840sq cm opposed to one exhaust of 140sq cm. Granted, there is probably another 200sq cm exhaust vent on the back .. especially with PCIe slot cover removed. But that is still less thant half of the fan forced flow intake area .. and we need more free flow exhaust area than forced flow intake area to facilitate optimum airflow.
> I guess my point is just because it works for you does not mean airflow is optimized.


All that less exhaust area means is increased pressure inside the case. As long as that pressure is not reaching a significant fraction of the static pressure of the fans, flow is fine.

Would air flow be more optimal if there was more area for the hot air to leave? Sure, but that's not practical...not given the box I have and where the heat is being generated inside of it.

I have significant heat generating components very close to all intakes except the front ones, and I need the front intakes to push a mass of otherwise stagnant air where I want it to go (though making the front fans exhaust did work _almost_ as well and is definitely something I will reevaluate once I get my GPUs off the stock blowers).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What fans are yoi using?


1300 rpm Cougars on a basic 5v/7v/12v switch (normally at 7v), except for the side panel fan which is 12v all the time.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Removeing PCIe slot covers may not help .. and sometimes air ends up flowing in the back.


Air flowing in the back isn't necessarily a bad thing if the GPU needs more ventilation...but air won't flow in the openings of a positive pressure setup.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> All that less exhaust area means is increased pressure inside the case. As long as that pressure is not reaching a significant fraction of the static pressure of the fans, flow is fine.
> 
> Would air flow be more optimal if there was more area for the hot air to leave? Sure, but that's not practical...not given the box I have and where the heat is being generated inside of it.
> 
> I have significant heat generating components very close to all intakes except the front ones, and I need the front intakes to push a mass of otherwise stagnant air where I want it to go (though making the front fans exhaust did work _almost_ as well and is definitely something I will reevaluate once I get my GPUs off the stock blowers).
> 
> 1300 rpm Cougars on a basic 5v/7v/12v switch (normally at 7v), except for the side panel fan which is 12v all the time.
> 
> Air flowing in the back isn't necessarily a bad thing if the GPU needs more ventilation...but air won't flow in the openings of a positive pressure setup.


The fans cannot push enough pressure to overcome the lack of exhaust area.

Possible, but not proven.

Haven't used Cougars but don't think too much of them either. As long as they work for you is what's important.

In a Define R4 with 3x TY-147 intakes, Silver Arrow SB-E Extreme and 2x Arctic FN12 TC fans on GPU at full load / speed the GPU fans were drawing air in the PCI slots. Not much mind, but in was a slight inflow, not out. Cooler intakes are less than 3c above room ambient and not motherboard components are above normal levels so no worries.

I'm sure you have good cooling. I just enjoy discussing different theories and possibilities. On my old R2 with X58 I found that removing the I / O plate dropped motherboard temps.. as did keeping case and cooler fan idle at 700rpm rather than 650rom where temps were 55c, but at 700rpm they were 50c.


----------



## JackCY

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> Board VRM is along the top edge (and only the top edge) of the board and my CPU pulls 220w+ through it. It gets hot enough to affect stability, and heat from the VRM noticeably increases CPU temps if I leave the top fans as exhaust. Flip them around to intake and they blow air directly at it, knocking at least 20C off the VRM and several C off the CPU.
> It all gets pushed out the back regardless, doesn't really have anywhere else it can go.
> I've tried the top fans both ways. Having the back rear as exhaust or blocked off doesn't reduce temps anywhere, it just means I have virtually no direct airflow over the CPU VRM or the four populated DIMM slots behind my CPU.


True, for your 2011 it can help but if the fans are too close to the CPU fans or the flow from CPU fans then the top rear intake can slow them down a little as the air goes against each other.

The rear DIMM slots don't get much air from the CPU fans?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> I find the side intake extremely useful for cooling GPUs. It's low enough to blow cool air across the back of a GPU in a lower slot, and almost ideally placed to blow air between two GPUs in CFX/SLI. Might work as an exhaust if your GPUs are using axial fans, but most GPUs with reference blowers will benefit far more from having it as an intake.


I hoped to get all the air in front of the GPU but this sure works too.
Axial, no blower, just normal fans but tha airflow of the cooler is IMHO screwed up, it's "good" compared to other GPU cards but design wise I think it still sucks big time as the air gets trapped in it and does not have many places to escape except the tiny front grill, the rear and otherwise it spits the air out around the fans and sucks it back in. Asus 280x DC2T. I'm thinking of removing the metal cover so the air can blow away, see if that helps or not. It pushes air onto the card but does not have many places to escape away.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> contrary to popular belief, four fast, tightly packed, DDR3 DIMMs with limited ventilation can get quite hot during prolonged load.
> Iin front of the CPU, as well as providing the CPU heatsink with cold intake air. The air from the front, bottom, and side fans is mostly directed through and around the GPU(s).


That's why fast DIMMs have heatsinks







Although mine barely get anywhere near warm.
I'm trying to get as much cold air to the GPU.
Quote:


> I've tested several different configurations; this system's CPU, mobo VRM, GPU, and GPU VRM temps are all cooler with an all intake fan config.


It usually is, contrary to common belief that you need exhaust fans or that the number/power of exhaust fans should match the intake.
All it needs is fresh cold air, the hot will get pushed out.
I'm putting 1 as exhaust and that's it. 3 intakes.

---

Picture time:

Almost empty case:









Front fans installed with a cage rotated 90 degrees.
Yes you can fit the top cage on top of the bottom cage, I've tried. You only cannot secure it on top without making new holes in the silly 5.25" bay's bottom and it may also be a few millimeters tight, the bottom cage is few millimeters higher when rotated. It might get a little close to the motherboard but it should not get over ATX board, graphic card length can be an issue I guess, it takes more space than the original positions.









This is the screw holes you use when the cage is rotated, see that's what those raised two holes are for that FD also had to made a cut out in the cage's bottom when it's in normal position. The cage has the same mount as a 120mm fan.









Nicely fits from the front, slide the drives out, I don't know why FD did not design the case this way from the get go. Although I'm not a fan of cages and think there are better and more space saving and airflow friendly ways to attach drives.









Why the heck did the plastic fan holder had an extra grill on it? HAD, that's right.









Thinking whether to cut out the bottom grills or not, waiting for a PSU, it's going to block the bottom fan position so the rotated cage that also blocks the fan position doesn't bother me and may help me to fit a forwarding bottom fan.

Anyone cut the grills? How resilient is the metal used? I've only seen a video once where they did it but not much was shown.
I would use a dremel with a cutting bit. Not sure how well that may got with cutting the metal though, I bet it's pretty tough to cut. Will probably pass on that mess, not worth it.

Also the top 5.25" bay can be fitted with a 80mm fan in front and or a 120mm fan in the back although something like 100-110 would fit best.

Will either velcro the two drives since I don't want to put a HDD in reducers to fit into the 5.25" bay, that's just asking for noisy vibrations. SSD can be velcroed anywhere


----------



## itznfb

I use the default fan configuration with 11 HDDs. 8 in the trays and 3 more in a 3 in 2 backplane. 3770K OC'ed to 4.8GHz running with a H80i. It's a media server that also runs 2 VMs. A Media Center server and a VPN server. Temps are fine. Ambient is a controlled 24c. CPU temp max is about 77c with average 37c. Inside case temp averages 29c and maxes around 34c~35c.


----------



## doyll

Here is a graph of my system from idle / surfing the web to 90-100% load and back. System reaches maximum temp within a couple minutes and graph line goes flat until end of run. Each vertical grid line represents 1 minute. Top graph gold and blue lines are CPU temp. The steady line that drops a couple of degrees as fans speed up is NB chip. Bottom graph purple line is cooler and case fan speed, green is GPU fans. You can see the cooler / cae fans jump in speed, than gradually increase for a minute or 2 .. and stay at about 1200rpm with CPU cores 48-52c max for the rest of each load cycle. You can see the CPU heat doing the same; jump from 25-32c to 45-52c, climb very little for about a minute and than stay flat for rest of each load cycle too. The center CPU graph shows load jump and stay up for each run. Today it is 28c and cooler intake / case is 29-31c.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> The fans cannot push enough pressure to overcome the lack of exhaust area.


There is always going to be some restriction. If air is moving at all, that restriction is being overcome to some degree and fans capable of higher static pressures overcome resistance more readily. A fan also needs to overcome the positive pressure differential behind it, but even in this setup with six intakes, the pressure inside the case is not large relative to the peak static pressure of the fans.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Haven't used Cougars but don't think too much of them either. As long as they work for you is what's important.


They have a pretty good combination of pressure, flow, noise, and cost. I was looking for fans in the ~15 dollar range, and these are hard to beat at that price.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JackCY*
> 
> That's why fast DIMMs have heatsinks


Not all of them, and heatsinks need some air flow do do much of anything.If my memory had heatsinks, they would almost be touching, and with the front CPU fan directly on top of them, air flow would be very minimal.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JackCY*
> 
> Anyone cut the grills? How resilient is the metal used?


I haven't cut mine yet, but it made of 0.6mm thick SECC and should be just as easy to cut as any other steel case with metal of similar thickness.


----------



## kpo6969

Quote:


> Originally Posted by Masters View Post
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> I actually saw a few questions about the R4 case and airflow in it. I thought I'd share what I've learned through a bit of trial and error with it.
> 
> First, I have tried both positive and negative airflow in this case. All fans I use are 140mm. All fan slots on the case were used.
> 
> Second, one thing I noticed that REALLY helped airflow is to remove BOTH hare drive cages. Now if you have alot of drives, this may not be for you, but the hard drive cages really impede airflow.
> ........


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ladcrooks*
> 
> Agree big time - I always remove the hdd cages as I am 1 hdd user. Sure makes a difference to air flow whatever the case used


Couldn't agree more. I removed both hdd bays and used my 2nd 5'25" drive bay for my 2 ssd's and 1 hdd with this adapter:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994163&cm_re=flex_fit-_-17-994-163-_-Product


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JackCY*
> 
> Thinking whether to cut out the bottom grills or not, waiting for a PSU, it's going to block the bottom fan position so the rotated cage that also blocks the fan position doesn't bother me and may help me to fit a forwarding bottom fan.
> 
> Anyone cut the grills? How resilient is the metal used? I've only seen a video once where they did it but not much was shown.
> I would use a dremel with a cutting bit. Not sure how well that may got with cutting the metal though, I bet it's pretty tough to cut. Will probably pass on that mess, not worth it.


Grills are at least 20-30% restrictive. As in they only have 70-80% open area. This means removing them improves airflow. In most all cases it also lowers the noise level. I removed the grills in my R2 with some good aviation tin snips, dressed the edges with a file and it looks okay. Best way is with a nibbler, either power or hand. Clamp a guide onto case to get nice straight lines.
Klein Tools 76011B Nibbler Tool is probably the best hand nibbler.


Define R2 modded to 140mm fans in front with Silverstone magnetic mounting filters. You can see the castor base under case.
  

Rear vent removed and duct from cooler. Removing I / O plate lowered motherboard component temps 4c
 

40mm castor base for ease of movement and better airflow to bottom vents.


----------



## dante`afk

I`m copying that doyll. Will remove the grils tomorrow and the front case and just leave it naked with the dust filter.

About to load all fan positions but the side fan, since the mk26 is too huge, a side fan would not fit.

would you recommend to have the top rear also as exhaust? what to do with the top front?


----------



## Wezzor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 40mm castor base for ease of movement and better airflow to bottom vents.


Where did you get it or did you make it yourself?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dante`afk*
> 
> I`m copying that doyll. Will remove the grils tomorrow and the front case and just leave it naked with the dust filter.
> 
> About to load all fan positions but the side fan, since the mk26 is too huge, a side fan would not fit.
> 
> would you recommend to have the top rear also as exhaust? what to do with the top front?


I remove unused PCIe back slot covers and let the 2x front and 1x bottom intakes push the air out the back. No top venting .. but the TY-147 fans have 1.89mm H2O and 74cfm rating at 1300rpm, so are capable of pushing air better than stock 120mm R2 fans with 1.07mm H2O and 40.5cfm at 1200rpm or 140mm R2 with 0.84mm H2O and 66cfm at 1000rpm
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wezzor*
> 
> Where did you get it or did you make it yourself?


Made it.
Have been making castor bases for years now. 30mm and 40mm castors on Baltic birch voidless 10mm 7 p0ly voidless plywood. The Define R2 base is not as clean looking as most.


----------



## dante`afk

I got almost -20 celsius on my gpu with just opening the pci-e slots, removing the front cover and opening the side and top covers. alo removed lower hdd cage.

73c on load now. crazy. wonder if i can push that if I install 3 more fans on bottom and top.

also almost -10 on CPU on prime bench load.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dante`afk*
> 
> I got almost -20 celsius on my gpu with just opening the pci-e slots, removing the front cover and opening the side and top covers. alo removed lower hdd cage.
> 
> 73c on load now. crazy. wonder if i can push that if I install 3 more fans on bottom and top.
> 
> also almost -10 on CPU on prime bench load.


Check temps inside of case and on cooler intakes. Second link in sig shows what I use. Cheaper than a low-cost fan and you will know what the temps are. If more more than a couple degrees above room temp than airflow could use improvement, but keep in mind if CPU and GPU cooler fans are a total of about 130cfm and you optimize case airflow you only need 140-180cfm case airflow. My R2 has 210cfm case and 200cfm component airflow at max fan speed. Normal heavy use is about 105cfm case and 80cfm component .. and at low load it's about 60cfm case and 35cfm component.


----------



## dante`afk

on another note.

I have about 7 Noiseblocker NB-Multiframe M12-S2 in the basement.

would they do the same job as TY-140? or even a better one?


----------



## Radd

Hey everyone,

I'm absolutely terrible with hardware and I just wanted to confirm something here with regards to the cooling of the Fractal Design Define R4 case. I will have the following config inside the case:


Spoiler: Config



Processor: Intel s1150 4 Core - i7 4790K 8Mb Cache / 8 Thread 4.0GHz/4.4Ghz Turbo - Graphics 4600 88W
Cooling: Be Quiet Dark Rock 3 / 135mm Silent Wings
Motherboard: Asrock s1150 - Z97 Professional Fatal1ty ATX - Killer E2200 - HDD Saver - Core3D
Graphic card: GeForce GTX980 G1 Gaming 4Gb DDR5
RAM: Kingston DDR3 - 2133Mhz - 16GB HyperX Beast CL11 ( 2x8GB ) + Headspread
DVD: LG Blu-Ray RW 16x Black SATA
OS: Microsoft Windows8.1 64-bit FR Oem + Install & Configuration
HDD: Caviar Blue 1000Gb - 3.5inch SATA 3,6GB/s,7200RPM,64MB
SSD: Crucial 512GB 2,5 (6.3cm) MX100 SATAIII intern retail
PSU: Vanguard V 700W Modular Cable



I will NOT overclock this config or do anything fancy - everything will run as stock









So, the R4 case comes with a stock 140mm intake fan at the front, and a stock 140mm exhaust fan at the back. I am going to add a 140mm intake fan, a Be Quiet Pure Wings 2. Would you advise me to place it at the front as well or on the side? Thanks a lot!


----------



## doyll

I would advise you place it in front or in bottom as intake. Usually the Define R4 will cool very well with 3x intake fans; 2x in front and 1x in bottom. Keep the side and top covers on and use try removing the PCIe back slot covers to allow more exhaust area. Link in my sig to case cooling might be helpful.


----------



## Radd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I would advise you place it in front or in bottom as intake. Usually the Define R4 will cool very well with 3x intake fans; 2x in front and 1x in bottom. Keep the side and top covers on and use try removing the PCIe back slot covers to allow more exhaust area. Link in my sig to case cooling might be helpful.


Thanks a lot man! I'll follow your advice put it in front. Cheers!


----------



## jordaniankng

+rep, how would you go about having a H80i corsair water cool in the build? I

would you still mount the radiator out the rear so it can exhaust the hot air out while it takes cold air in from the other fans, top bottom and front?


----------



## doyll

Yes, I would use the back vent for H80 exhaust and probably vent in middle of top as intake to supply it with cool air with the farther back vent covered. Much depends on where computer lives (under desk, on desk etc.) and what GPU is being used. I would be tempted to duct from top intake to H80. To me it is crazy to put CPU on H2O and not GPU. Most GPUs make as much or more heat than CPU. Much of getting optimum case airflow is trial and error .. finding out what the air temp going into coolers and in different place inside the case .. as explained in case airflow link in sig.


----------



## jordaniankng

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Yes, I would use the back vent for H80 exhaust and probably vent in middle of top as intake to supply it with cool air with the farther back vent covered. Much depends on where computer lives (under desk, on desk etc.) and what GPU is being used. I would be tempted to duct from top intake to H80. To me it is crazy to put CPU on H2O and not GPU. Most GPUs make as much or more heat than CPU. Much of getting optimum case airflow is trial and error .. finding out what the air temp going into coolers and in different place inside the case .. as explained in case airflow link in sig.


computer is above desk, with nothing in its path of its vents. not even me nor the keyboard, sits its self about 2.5 meters away from me.

however I will have to probably take out the bottom HDD trays to get the air flow instead of the top. seems a lot better that way to cool the GPU although I gave a GTX 650 right now, I might make the move to a Sapphire Radeon R7 265 x2 just solely to run 3 monitors.

This will need more airflow I believe, and to get that flow will probably need to remove the bottom HDD tray? that way, the cooled air goes straight to the GPU's.

or just make the complete move to custom water cooling and have awesome loops that connect my CPU and both my GPU's.


----------



## doyll

I believe a cheapo digital indoor / outdoor thermometer with wired lead to outside probe is a necessity to monitor case air temps and setup optimum airflow.

The reasoning for top in to back out on h80 is to supply it with coolest air. Here is a quick drawing of what I think might work. The top fan may not be needed .. or maybe one of the front or bottom .. 3 intakes should be enough. The problem is keeping the heated exhaust from GPU from being sucked into radiator. That is when the remote sensor thermometer is handy .. to monitor the air temp in front of radiator and testing different fan combinations .. like have all 4 intake installed and test different combinations of three running with other unplugged.


----------



## jordaniankng

wow, that might actually work. I might give it a go in a couple of days because of work. ill get a thermostat and stick it in there before and after and show you guys the results of the case, and the result of the GPU and CPU temps. Cheers









sorry, +rep


----------



## Zbyszko

Hey guys, a couple of questions. New R4 build, really like the case but not sure if I have the best flow setup so please let me know what you think. Also, is there a way to remove the bottom drive tray while keeping the top one? It doesn't really look like it but I thought I'd check as I have too many drives for the bottom case but would like to remove it for better flow for the graphics cards. I don't want to do any modding of the case but I'm open to some strategic application of zip-ties.. LOL

1. I moved the 140mm FD fans to the front as inlets and run them at the lowest speed off of the case fan controller
2. On top I have a 120mm Arctic F12 and a 140mm F14 acting as exhaust and throttling with CPU temp.
3. Corsair H90 is in the rear acting as an intake (idea is that the top fans will immediately exhaust the warm air from the radiator. I plan to add another fan for push-pull across the radiator. I will also try to add a filter there so it doesn't keep sucking dust and depositing it on the radiator. Unsure if this will be acceptable for airflow or what my options are though.
4. One Arctic 120mm fan acting as intake on the bottom... this is what I'm unsure about since the two GTX670s are blowing air down, this fan may be counter-productive.
5. PS takes air in from the bottom and exhausts it out back so in-case airflow is not affected.
6. No fan on the side and not sure if putting one there will be beneficial for this setup.

I'm happy with the noise-level.





Just to establish a baseline while playing some Elite: Dangerous with this setup the max temps, as reported by HWMonitor, were as follows:

Core: 48
Memory: 57
Mainboard: 56
GTX 1: 77
GTX 2: 74

So it appears that the graphics cards need the most help right now, especially the top one.


----------



## Duality92

If someone with hard drives feels that airflow is being hindered by the drive cage, you can alternate mount it and sacrifice the bottom intake.

This is what I did when I had a radiator, the alternate mounting doesn't need modification and is built for it (in case someone doesn't know)


----------



## Nicholars

I am thinking about removing the plastic grille on the front for more airflow and top stop it making a whistling noise when air passes though it, has anyone tried this? Does it make much difference and does it let a lot more noise out with the grille removed?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nicholars*
> 
> I am thinking about removing the plastic grille on the front for more airflow and top stop it making a whistling noise when air passes though it, has anyone tried this? Does it make much difference and does it let a lot more noise out with the grille removed?


I modded my Define R2 to 140mm fans,removed stock grill & filter and used Silverstone filters.


With the fans on PWM control from CPU fan header and bottom intake on GPU fan header it works great and is almost silent even at full load.

I also removed the back and bottom vent grills for more airflow and to make them quieter too.


----------



## Nicholars

Might do that at some point... is it possible to remove with breaking them? So you could put it back?


----------



## doyll

It was on my Define R2. Sorry, I don't know how the Define R4 is assembled.


----------



## deadman3000

I have not read the entirety of this thread. But I have some idea's. I have an R4 and currently all the blanking fans are closed (side and top). I think I may need to rethink my layout based upon this thread. Currently I have all hard disk cages in and sideways as normal. I have 4 hard disks spaced between those cages and the two input fans as usual at the front. I have no side fan. It is blanked. My top two fan outlets are blanked. My PSU is mounted so it pulls air from the bottom and blows out the back (PSU at bottom of case) so it is serving no purposes in case airflow. My GPU is in the top PCIe slot. I am unsure how my Corsair 140mm AIO for the CPU is setup. I think just from putting a tissue to the back it is drawing air in from the top with 1 fan to the radiator and the other fan is attached to the other side is either blowing in the same direction (inwards) or outwards I will have to take the side off and check.

I was thinking of moving at least one of the front fans to the side and maybe putting my GPU to a lower slot and allow it to blow over the GPU.

Can anyone make any suggestions?


----------



## mysterpda

What do you people of think of using it with regular-level gear and keeping top closed and all filters mounted? I aim to have a silent desktop but to be able to play the odd game on medium settings. I don't overclock.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mysterpda*
> 
> What do you people of think of using it with regular-level gear and keeping top closed and all filters mounted? I aim to have a silent desktop but to be able to play the odd game on medium settings. I don't overclock.


It should work just fine.


----------



## mysterpda

This review said that keeping it closed may mean internal temp of 70 C and up. Didn't say on which range of specs though, lol. Hope you are right, I think I am going for the buy. Not cheap!


----------

