# [Guru3D]Did EVGA just Steal the Rivatuner RTSS design concept?



## coachmark2

To answer the question posed by the thread title:

Yes. They did. At least,that's what it appears from the information presented in the article linked.


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## rusirius

Unwinder confirmed they stole it. Here is a quote from unwinder
Quote:


> Fun thing, even for the installer of "in-house" product the company copy-pasted my own license agreement from original installer, which contains my own third party components licensing terms and direct restriction on reverse engineering or redistributing them. Probably you'll at least read what exactly do you copy paste, EVGA?]


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## mtbiker033

wow, that's amazing....I appreciate and respect Unwinder's work and I personally use afterburner.

Not sure if he has legal recourse or not but hopefully justice is served.


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## brasco

Quote:


> EVGA stopped royalty payments in December 2013 for Unwinder. Unwinder was not informed about all this, they just never contacted him again, not even the courtesy of an email was send to him that project development would be halted or that his agreement with EVGA would be suspended


Quote:


> Fun thing, even for the installer of "in-house" product the company copy-pasted my own license agreement from original installer, which contains my own third party components licensing terms and direct restriction on reverse engineering or redistributing them. Probably you'll at least read what exactly do you copy paste, EVGA?


Ouch. I was going to say hold off on throwing them under the bus but there's certainly some poor decisions going on if this is all true.


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## szeged

oh boy, this cant be good.


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## Born For TDM

Disgusting, until this is rectified im not purchasing any EVGA products, and i love EVGA's designs...


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## Germanian

wow EVGA shame on you
You better apologize in public


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## Inglewood78

well this sucks.


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## CSCoder4ever

Wow Evga... just WOW.


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## rusirius

All i can say is publicly apologize and pay Unwinder what he is due.


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## Alex132

EVGAs response is awful


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## pilihp2

Probably the most popular Nvidia retailer just messed up reeeeeeal bad. I don't see this ending well.


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## zalbard

This is beyond stupid. Has nobody at EVGA given this any thought at all? Only kids would conceal a copy so poorly...


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## techXplored

Unacceptable...


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## szeged

evga better pay unwinder what he is owed before he sues and gets more than what is owed.


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## AK-47

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Born For TDM*
> 
> Disgusting, until this is rectified im not purchasing any EVGA products, and i love EVGA's designs...


yeah I was eyeing their psu because i need something modular
looks like seasonic or corsair it is


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## rusirius

I can see it now a crowd funded legal team for Unwinder to get EVGA to pay up. Listen up EVGA it would be wise to fix this before it hurts your company.


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## mutantmagnet

Love the response. Either EVGA higher ups are lying or the guy they hired to make their own version of Rivatuner just copy and pasted without telling them. I wonder if there will be a sacrificial wolf.


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## doco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mutantmagnet*
> 
> Love the response. Either EVGA higher ups are lying or the guy they hired to make their own version of Rivatuner just copy and pasted without telling them. I wonder if there will be a sacrificial wolf.


of course there will be a lamb to fire within the team that developed build 15 of precisionX. someone or multiple people had to approve and look over everything before releasing it.


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## Polska

I stopped using Precision because its voltage processes were always eating up cpu cycles. I went back to Afterburner, and reading this do not think I will go back to precision.


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## PostalTwinkie

I expect a hell of a lot better from EVGA than this.....

Until they apologize and compensate Unwinder, I refuse to support their products and company. Just disgusting if true....


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## DoktorCreepy

So EVGA starts redeeming themselves with their solid non reference designs starting with the release of the GTX 780 in May of 2013, then with their G2 and P2 power supplies. Things were starting to seem good.

Now they do this which is probably even worse than their bad joke motherboards they released on the P67, Z68, X79, and Z77 chipsets.

After reading the Guru3D forums Unwinder is actually showing a surprising amount of restraint, If that was my work I certainly wouldn't be.


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## coachmark2

Perhaps we can get an official response from EVGA-JacobF about this before this thread descends into an unholy flame war.


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## Junkboy

*looks at GPU in disgust*

Is this were EVGA pulls of the mask and makes the turn to the dark side? Was the x79 mobo fiasco a blip or just a sign of things to come?


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## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I expect a hell of a lot better from EVGA than this.....
> 
> Until they apologize and compensate Unwinder, I refuse to support their products and company. Just disgusting if true....


I almost want to agree with you but I've been seeing companies do bad business like this left and right.

Nowadays I just buy the best performing product







EVGA has quite a bit of them.

Hopefully they can take the responsibility and do what is needed after apologizing about this.


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## szeged

i see jacob in here, he better tell the guy in charge of this he needs a good explaination lol.


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## EVGA-JacobF

EVGA will issue a formal reply shortly. There is definitely a lot more to this than most people think, or the article seemed to imply. Without a doubt there were no bad intentions from EVGA. I think most can agree just based on history that it is not EVGA policy to steal or deceive.


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## szeged

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVGA-JacobF*
> 
> EVGA will issue a formal reply shortly. There is definitely a lot more to this than most people think, or the article seemed to imply. Without a doubt there were no bad intentions from EVGA. *I think most can agree just based on history that it is not EVGA policy to steal or deceive.*


good to hear.

i hoped there was more to the story than the article showed, but since it was the only thing out about it right now it was hard to judge.

@ the bolded part - evga is easily my favorite company to deal with for hardware for sure.


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## MrLinky

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alex132*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EVGAs response is awful


This. Unwinder is citing specific, verifiable examples. Evga's response was basically "Nuh-uh!".

Unwinder can rude and arrogant sometimes, but I'm siding with him on this one. Hopefully all of this copy-paste work was by a lazy dev and not a conscious EVGA decision. I love EVGA products but if everything said so far is true, I might have to get an ASUS motherboard when Haswell-E arrives.


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## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mutantmagnet*
> 
> Love the response. Either EVGA higher ups are lying or the guy they hired to make their own version of Rivatuner just copy and pasted without telling them. I wonder if there will be a sacrificial wolf.


Got a feeling the latter might be the case, especially if the EULA being a direct copy-paste is true. EVGA themselves don't have the source code available so it's not like they could copy-paste it. But ya, let's just wait it out till the formal response before jumping to conclusions.


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## inedenimadam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> let's just wait it out till the formal response before jumping to conclusions.


What a concept!


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## ghostrider85

Lol, i wonder what their official response will gonna be like, i mean come on, even the License agreement is copy pasted.


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## HMBR

epic fail...

the only thing that could save the EVGA side would be if the guy is lying and they actually have some kind of license agreement, because everything he said makes sense and there is some obvious crtl+c/crtl+v going on... that's very low

or maybe some programmer working for EVGA lied to EVGA and did this copying all by himself!?


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## EVGA-JacobF

Official reply. Regarding T&C, simple oversight we will update on next release. I suppose it wasn't clear where it originated.
Quote:


> First, we value the relationship that we have with RivaTuner Alex/Unwinder since Feb.13th, 2008. With EVGA and Alex/Unwinder mutual efforts, Precision has become a very popular overclocking utility since it launched. Afterburner's first release was in Oct. 2009.
> 
> It was originally EVGA's idea to provide the world's first "simple" overclocking GUI designed for NVIDIA cards that utilizes some of the Rivatuner technology for free. Due to some misinformation floating around about EVGA Precision recently, we would like to clarify several points. Also, EVGA wouldn't have any interest to develop our own version if Alex/Unwinder had showed his interest back then like we've seen today!
> 
> 1. The EVGA Precision main GUI (main Window) and format was fully designed and owned by EVGA, that means Alex/Unwinder did not design the Precision GUI at all. The Rivatuner technology was used for the backend like GPU reporting, OSD and overclocking. Other features like voltage tuning, pixel clock control and Bluetooth function were coded by EVGA. We want it to be clear that Rivatuner source code has never been released to EVGA. A year and half after Precision was introduced, Afterburner was released, that shared a lot of the same ideas and concepts originally set by EVGA's Precision, and also used Rivatuner technology.
> 2. Most gamers knew that some of the key features that have been requested and missed such as 64bit OSD, voltage control and video recording in the early versions of Precision, yet Afterburner had it. You probably don't know that some of those ideas were initiated and requested to Alex/Unwinder by EVGA to implement into Precision well before it was available in Afterburner, but Alex/Unwinder had no intention to add it. One year later they showed up in Afterburner exclusively without any notification and/or offer to EVGA. We felt that we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant if we continue this route.
> 
> We like Precision, the interface and the features, just like most of the gamers in the community, but under these circumstances, it became clear that in order to provide more features that are requested by the community, we needed to recode the back end from the ground up, using our own existing Precision skin designed as merely inspiration, that is why today we have the new EVGA PrecisionX 15. In the latest PrecisionX 15 we have put in some features like 64bit OSD support, Steam achievements and more. We want to make it clear that EVGA PrecisionX 15 is *100%* coded in house without using any code from the older Precision due to we don't have the source code since day one!
> 
> EVGA will continue adding features to support the community on PrecisionX15 for free as usual, and hope to inspire other overclocking utilities to be better for the entire gaming community.
> 
> The bottom line is that EVGA doesn't want any third party to dictate what features the community should or should not have!
> 
> EVGA


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## Inglewood78

Someone is lying and I'm not sure who!


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## VSG

Thanks for the response, Jacob. I have a feeling it's not anywhere close to settled yet but I am satisfied personally if you guys get the T&C dealt with.

Does Unwinder have any rights to the OSD menu and options part like its being insinuated?


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## xnotx2

+1 EVGA Unwinder can swallow an egg, get over the parting of ways and stop trying to deface EVGA.
So If it's all copy paste why aren't the skins compatible. lol


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## Mad Pistol

Afterburner and Precision have always looked similar on the underlying features and design. There's no doubt about that. I was pretty convinced that they were coded similarly, if not exactly the same.

However, what Jacob says is indeed true as far as I can tell and research. Because of that, I have to side with eVGA on this one. They really had no choice in the end, and they should not be held responsible for this debacle.

At the moment, I'm still an eVGA fan.


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## HMBR

I'm not seeing a reasonable answer for this so far:

"All product properties, entire monitoring section, setting and so on came from directly original RivaTuner (and were available in other RivaTuner based products like HIS iTurbo years before Precision was born) and EVGA has no relation to designing them at all. So company directly violated our license agreement terms and reverse engineered licensed binaries to copy data from it and represent it as their own design."

"EVGA completely cloned original RivaTuner's RTMUI multilanguage context help system and localization engine. Contents of "Help" and "Localization" folders were copy-pasted to new product as is from original Precision, including localization and GUI translation databases for different languages. "Help" folder contains direct mapping of dialog IDs to help files, I guess getting easy access to it as direct reason of "copying" original dialog templates with original dialog IDs. So the company also violated our license agreement terms and redistributed parts of original product without permission."

"Fun thing, even for the installer of "in-house" product the company copy-pasted my own license agreement from original installer, which contains my own third party components licensing terms and direct restriction on reverse engineering or redistributing them. Probably you'll at least read what exactly do you copy paste, EVGA?"


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## Nihaan

I remember asking a question to those MSI fanboys at guru3d. God it was so awful and i got called names by many of them including Unwinder. I still remember how he was cursing on the forums and putting blame on Evga users just because of asking for an update, reporting a bug or asking for a feature.

I will be honest here... I won't be sad for him if this is true


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## mcg75

If everything Unwinder says is true, he will have no issue taking this to court and winning.

Anybody think EVGA is really that stupid? I don't.


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## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mcg75*
> 
> If everything Sidewinder says is true, he will have no issue taking this to court and winning.
> 
> Anybody think EVGA is really that stupid? I don't.


I don't think poor Gary from Sidewinder has anything to do with this









I kid, I kid. Unwinder is from Ukraine I believe, not sure he can do anything even if he is right with everything. I am with you though, Precision-X was held back so much that EVGA really had to do something about it. I think they did the right thing, a better implementation would have likely helped out.


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## jtom320

I'm a huge EVGA fan but I don't have much trouble believing that a lot of Precision underlying features are ripped straight out of RivaTuner.

Although I have not used the latest release being on AMD cards atm.

Not going to keep me from buying EVGA stuff but it's not a good look.


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## mcg75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I don't think poor Gary from Sidewinder has anything to do with this


LOL. Don't know where sidewinder came from. Oops.


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## Jaeflash

If you look over on the EVGA forums, there are people having problems that weren't there in the older version of precision. Wouldn't a copy/paste job function just like the original? Not to mention reverse engineering is perfectly legal. EA and Accolade did it to Sega, Phoenix did it to IBM's BIOS, and AMD did it with Intel processors. Seems perfectly legit that EVGA could reverse engineer Rivatuner functionality.


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## Arizonian

1. Regardless of the results of this accusation, EVGA's products such as GPUs and PSU's are still solid products. It doesn't change that one bit.

I expect this to go to court either way, first one to sue would show us who might have the most confidence that they are telling the truth.

2. If unwinder is proven wrong, EVGA should sue him for slander.

3. If EVGA is found at fault then this would tarnish the way they conduct business. May shake some consumers from future purchase who might put this type of weight into their buying products decision.


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## szeged

im siding with evga on this one.

evga products are solid 100%, even if they were the direct cause of a fire in a day care, id still buy from them. besides, i doubt their hardware team had much to do with the software development.


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## rusirius

Based on statements provided by both parties so far and the damn near identical screenshots i have seen. If i was on a jury id rule for unwinder. Sorry EVGA you lose.BTW apple has sued for less and won.


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## Masked

Called this a few years ago when Precision first launched -- In fact, couldn't get it or Rivatuner to work -- Now I know why.

So glad I dumped EVGA after the X79 Classified debacle -- Now the rest of you know why you should, too.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> 1. Regardless of the results of this accusation, EVGA's products such as GPUs and PSU's are still solid products. It doesn't change that one bit.
> 
> I expect this to go to court either way, first one to sue would show us who might have the most confidence that they are telling the truth.
> 
> 2. If unwinder is proven wrong, EVGA should sue him for slander.
> 
> 3. If EVGA is found at fault then this would tarnish the way they conduct business. May shake some consumers from future purchase who might put this type of weight into their buying products decision.


First of all, their product is Nvidia's...So, of course it's solid, it's not their design.

2 -- Unwinder actually isn't wrong -- Many of us said this when precision first launched...Not surprising.

3 -- Oh please, they've done far worse. They didn't refund the vast majority of X79 users after their motherboards straight up died and lied about compatibility for 2 years.

They're more than likely going to lose and deserve it for what they've done to their customer base.


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## Celeras

Either way: to reiterate, eVGA doesn't have anything to prove and Unwinder's own reputation in this regard will be his undoing. Regardless of whether or not he has a legitimate claim. You reap what you sow.


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## MapRef41N93W

No way in hell would I trust the side of a little worm like Unwinder over that of EVGA. I would bet money this is 100% bullcrap, and am glad that EVGA got this guy off developing their utility.


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## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Celeras*
> 
> Either way: to reiterate, eVGA doesn't have anything to prove and Unwinder's own reputation in this regard will be his undoing. Regardless of whether or not he has a legitimate claim. You reap what you sow.


Unwinder's explanation pretty much proves every single response from EVGA to be 100% bunk.

...Considering Rivatuner existed before Precision and they had a "loose relationship" at the time -- This isn't even slightly unreasonable...

Was par for the industry...Still is -- The only question is...Does Unwinder really care enough to sue...


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## mcg75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rusirius*
> 
> Based on statements provided by both parties so far and the damn near identical screenshots i have seen. If i was on a jury id rule for unwinder. Sorry EVGA you lose.BTW apple has sued for less and won.


The screenshots are also identical to previous versions of Precision as well.

The question is where did the code underneath running it originate from.


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## Kinaesthetic

What I'm curious is that if any of the work Unwinder did was while he was under explicit contract of EVGA. Because if so, those contracts almost always have a clause in them stating that the work done during the contracted period is owned by the company offering the contract (in this case, EVGA). So EVGA might have actually had ownership of a lot of the code originally, and are rightfully using it as per the contract.


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## yunshin

I don't care either way, I'll continue buying EVGA products as long as they're built well.


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## Vengeance47

Gotta love this. If this was EA or MS being accused of stealing code people would be all over them hating on them. But because its about the almighty EVGA, the hate seems almost non-existent









To be honest, at this point in time, with the statements provided by both parties. You would have to be a lunatic to side with EVGA. Assuming that what Unwinder posted was true and correct information, then there is no way you could possibly side with EVGA. Sure, we don't know whether he is telling the truth or not but ultimately we probably never will and can only take things at face value. Given what he has listed there, I would have to seriously question EVGA here.

More than likely there is probably some confusion about ownership of code from previous collaborations, which is probably what is causing this issue. But even then, credit should be given where credit is due and claims of "100% from the ground up" should not be made unless its 100% factual, which it doesn't seem to be in this case.


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## rusirius

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vengeance47*
> 
> Gotta love this. If this was EA or MS being accused of stealing code people would be all over them hating on them. But because its about the almighty EVGA, the hate seems almost non-existent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, at this point in time, with the statements provided by both parties. You would have to be a lunatic to side with EVGA. Assuming that what Unwinder posted was true and correct information, then there is no way you could possibly side with EVGA. Sure, we don't know whether he is telling the truth or not but ultimately we probably never will and can only take things at face value. Given what he has listed there, I would have to seriously question EVGA here.
> 
> More than likely there is probably some confusion about ownership of code from previous collaborations, which is probably what is causing this issue. But even then, credit should be given where credit is due and claims of "100% from the ground up" should not be made unless its 100% factual, which it doesn't seem to be in this case.


This in a nutshell. Now if they stopped paying him like its been implied then the should not use his resources.


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## TheLAWNOOB

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vengeance47*
> 
> Gotta love this. If this was EA or MS being accused of stealing code people would be all over them hating on them. But because its about the almighty EVGA, the hate seems almost non-existent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, at this point in time, with the statements provided by both parties. You would have to be a lunatic to side with EVGA. Assuming that what Unwinder posted was true and correct information, then there is no way you could possibly side with EVGA. Sure, we don't know whether he is telling the truth or not but ultimately we probably never will and can only take things at face value. Given what he has listed there, I would have to seriously question EVGA here.
> 
> More than likely there is probably some confusion about ownership of code from previous collaborations, which is probably what is causing this issue. But even then, credit should be given where credit is due and claims of "100% from the ground up" should not be made unless its 100% factual, which it doesn't seem to be in this case.


Well, you can't sue someone for having the same user interface unless you are Apple.

As for the code, well, like what Kinaesthetic said, as long as he signed a contracted to work for EVGA then he probably already gave up his rights and ownership to the code.

EVGA makes great products most of the time


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## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheLAWNOOB*
> 
> Well, you can't sue someone for having the same user interface unless you are Apple.
> 
> As for the code, well, like what Kinaesthetic said, as long as he signed a contracted to work for EVGA then he probably already gave up his rights and ownership to the code.
> 
> EVGA makes great products most of the time


Evga doesn't "make" their products, Nvidia/Flextronics, do.

Also -- Guru3d posted this at EVGA.com -- http://forums.evga.com/FindPost/2191767
Quote:


> Jacob, Hilbert from Guru3D.com here.
> 
> You keep running in repetitive circles that you didn't use any code from Rivatuner, Alexeys observation already indicated otherwise.
> Next to that it isn't solely about the code is it ? You / EVGA literately took any and every idea from the Rivatuner codebase you could use, including the config UI interface. There is no walking away from this Jacob, it is called plagiarism and it is a tag that from now on will always be attached to EVGA PrecisionX.
> 
> As stated in my article, you guys have every right to develop a proper in-house tool. Instead somehow you guys figured it was OK to make a replicated clone of the Rivatuner design interface with your own Skin attached to it. My honest advice here, pull this software while you still can. Go back to the drawing board and redesign the software in such a manner that it doesn't look like a cheap rip-off of Alexeys software.
> 
> You can hide behind statements and brainwash everybody that you didn't use anything from Alexey. But the fact is that even if you coded everything in-house, you guys stole his life-work by replicating and cloning it. Make the right choice while you still can my man, this isn't going to do EVGA any good. We have know each other for many years with great mutual respect, but I am afraid you guys are passing a threshold here that will taint EVGA for the rest of its existence.
> 
> Btw - small note - you guys even copied and pasted the Rivatuner's Llicense agreement EULA - literally.
> 
> Here are the initial findings from Alexey after inspecting PrecisionX 15:
> Original EVGA Precision EXE resources and dialog templates were copy-pasted to this "in-house" project as is, even original dialog control IDs are the same. Company PRs already claim that GUI is 100% designed by EVGA which is sadly not true, company designed concept art of EVGA Precision skin only. All product properties, entire monitoring section, setting and so on came from directly original RivaTuner (and were available in other RivaTuner based products like HIS iTurbo years before Precision was born) and EVGA has no relation to designing them at all. So company directly violated our license agreement terms and reverse engineered licensed binaries to copy data from it and represent it as their own design.
> EVGA completely cloned original RivaTuner's RTMUI multilanguage context help system and localization engine. Contents of "Help" and "Localization" folders were copy-pasted to new product as is from original Precision, including localization and GUI translation databases for different languages. "Help" folder contains direct mapping of dialog IDs to help files, I guess getting easy access to it as direct reason of "copying" original dialog templates with original dialog IDs. So the company also violated our license agreement terms and redistributed parts of original product without permission.
> Even "in-house" skin still uses my original raster fonts from old good RivaTuner. But at least that can be partially justified. Out intellectual property ownership terms of agreement define that I own software product copyrights, the company exclusively owns the product distribution rights as well as non-software intellectual properties like trademarks, product name, logos and artwork I create for them during the contract. So you may try to fit "copied" fonts in this category if you close eyes on the fact that it came from original RT.
> Fun thing, even for the installer of "in-house" product the company copy-pasted my own license agreement from original installer, which contains my own third party components licensing terms and direct restriction on reverse engineering or redistributing them. Probably you'll at least read what exactly do you copy paste, EVGA?
> The most sad and painful thing for me is that the company entirely copy-pasted RivaTuner's unique concepts of displaying data into On-Screen Display. RvaTuner Statistics Server was the first tool in the industry that introduced the concept of in-game hardware monitoring via OSD back in 2005, I spent almost than 10 years on polishing it. And most sad thing for me is that original Precision was not supposed to include such functionality, so it is not included in development budget and royalty fees. I added RTSS to Precision in one of the first versions completely free of any licensing fees just to help the company to promote new tool and it truly became one of the most important application features. So it was used during more than 5 years completely free (and the company was never brave to admit that) and in final they originally "thanked" for free OSD usage by stealing it. EVGA's brand new "in-house" OSD is also open a simple rip of open source FW1FontWrapper overlay. And If I were the developer of FW1FontWrapper, I'd read the story of RTSS and think 1000 times about it.


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## wholeeo

Unwinder should hop off a bridge. His negative posts in the past have ruined his integrity. Meanwhile EVGA have been nothing but stand up for me since my 570s.


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## 161029

If EVGA truly did it by themselves, that raises the question of what is the best way to code for a certain function? There's definitely several ways but I don't think you can blame them for trying to go the "best" way, even if somebody else has done it before them.

Its like a one company's software does the very basic motion of pour coffee while another company makes an entire Rube Goldberg for it. The second company is obviously going to go the easier way eventually so the performance (in this case simplicity and time taken to do the action) is the best. Although then people might start pointing at company 2 and saying they're coping company 1 when its kind of the only thing they can do.


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## TheLAWNOOB

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Evga doesn't "make" their products, Nvidia/Flextronics, do.


New of the day: AMD no longer makes CPUs, APUs, or GPUs.

GF and TSMC makes it for them.


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## armartins

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junkboy*
> 
> *looks at GPU in disgust*
> 
> Is this were EVGA pulls of the mask and makes the turn to the dark side? Was the x79 mobo fiasco a blip or just a sign of things to come?


ROTFL








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Unwinder's explanation pretty much proves every single response from EVGA to be 100% bunk.
> 
> ...Considering Rivatuner existed before Precision and they had a "loose relationship" at the time -- This isn't even slightly unreasonable...
> 
> Was par for the industry...Still is -- The only question is...Does Unwinder really care enough to sue...


Does Unwinder really *has enough money* to sue... This kind of practice is common because of the enormous amount of money required to *properly* litigate in the US.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kinaesthetic*
> 
> What I'm curious is that if any of the work Unwinder did was while he was under explicit contract of EVGA. Because if so, those contracts almost always have a clause in them stating that the work done during the contracted period is owned by the company offering the contract (in this case, EVGA). So EVGA might have actually had ownership of a lot of the code originally, and are rightfully using it as per the contract.


Expeculation. Also if they could say that, they would have already burn'd that card.

*MY OPINION:*
- It's logical that Unwinder was letting EVGA on the backseat;
- But this does not allow EVGA to do this groce copy-paste, Unwinder's clains seen really reasonable in regard the design;


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## Kinaesthetic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *armartins*
> 
> ROTFL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Unwinder really *has enough money* to sue... This kind of practice is common because of the enormous amount of money required to *properly* litigate in the US.
> Expeculation. Also if they could say that, they would have already burn'd that card.
> 
> *MY OPINION:*
> - It's logical that Unwinder was letting EVGA on the backseat;
> - But this does not allow EVGA to do this groce copy-paste, Unwinder's clains seen really reasonable in regard the design;


Yeah, I know what I posted was speculation. But it is a possibility. And businesses won't always burn that card first either. Sometimes the contract prohibits that in the first place, i.e. divulging contract terms to the public.

Just trying to be rational here, unlike many people here who are having knee-jerk reactions.


----------



## BulletSponge

Edit-Still thinking


----------



## jtom320

All you have to do is open Precision to realize you've used it before.

Hell the EULA is the exact same.

Again this isn't really going to dissuade me from buying EVGA products in the future but let's be real.


----------



## Liranan

When I bought my 6870 I bought it specifically because MSI were developing Afterburner, despite it being more expensive.


----------



## sticks435

Let's think about this. What software does Guru3D host. Mmmmm, that's right, Afterburner. What software do they not host. That's right, Precision. Who has been accused of getting paid by MSI to add features to Afterburner and not Precision. That's right, Unwinder. Who's a total dick on the forums most of the time. That's right, Unwinder. Why is the only website this news is on Guru3D. Put some numbers together and I think you can figure out that last answer.


----------



## mk16

oh dis gonna be good.

a huge player in the gup marked is allegedly copying code
theres some proof to back this claim up and evga is just putting out weak comments to buy time to get their own proof that its all in house code.


----------



## hollowtek

Ugh, looks like Nvidia EVGA (sorry i associate the two







). got into the habit of entitlement.


----------



## szeged

nvidia has nothing to do with this though??


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sticks435*
> 
> Let's think about this. What software does Guru3D host. Mmmmm, that's right, Afterburner. What software do they not host. That's right, Precision. Who has been accused of getting paid by MSI to add features to Afterburner and not Precision. That's right, Unwinder. Who's a total dick on the forums most of the time. That's right, Unwinder. Why is the only website this news is on Guru3D. Put some numbers together and I think you can figure out that last answer.


I don't have a problem with that. What I had an issue with was them publishing this as a news article without consulting EVGA or Unwinder, based just off screenshots.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sticks435*
> 
> Let's think about this. What software does Guru3D host. Mmmmm, that's right, Afterburner. What software do they not host. That's right, Precision. Who has been accused of getting paid by MSI to add features to Afterburner and not Precision. That's right, Unwinder. Who's a total dick on the forums most of the time. That's right, Unwinder. Why is the only website this news is on Guru3D. Put some numbers together and I think you can figure out that last answer.


Guru has always hosted everything...Everything...Which includes Afterburner.

They don't host precision because EVGA has their own proprietary hosting so, nobody else would host it, anyway.

That's irrelevant...Because according to Unwinder he was never contractually obligated to add anything to precision...

And yes, he is mouthy but...He's vindicated.


----------



## wholeeo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *szeged*
> 
> nvidia has nothing to do with this though??


Typical jihadist.


----------



## wholeeo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *szeged*
> 
> D:
> 
> this has to do with evga though, not nvidia. nvidia doesnt have anything to do with afterburner or precision x.


Like I said, typical jihadist, look at who made the original post.


----------



## sticks435

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I don't have a problem with that. What I had an issue with was them publishing this as a news article without consulting EVGA or Unwinder, based just off screenshots.


Right, because they are on MSI's D and you could reason Unwinders by association. I had switched to Afterburner because I needed 64-bit compatibility for a game I was playing and wondered why Precision wasn't getting the same ones.


----------



## wholeeo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Lol I bet that's the first time you got called a Jihadist


I wasn't name calling him..lol


----------



## tsm106

It's strange that EVGA would _imply_ that Unwinder's code falls under work product when the real inception of the product is between Unwinder and MSI, NOT EVGA. And if you look between the lines, the reason EVGA was never "given" access to the new components is because the code is under contract/ownership with MSI. MSI dictates the voltage limits on Afterburner and Unwinder has to comply. I doubt MSI would be very happy with EVGA stealing their collaborative product. Unwinder probably could get MSI involved and that could really heat things up.


----------



## wholeeo

Oh look who has spoke. The captain of the ship. loi


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

To bad this had to happen for either side. Dosnt change my stance on evgas hardware. I will always by there stuff. There warrenty service is awsome...


----------



## Kyoujin

Wow, they even copy-pasted the EULA. At this point there's no question that EVGA's software team *stole* from Unwinder. Whether or not the guy is a douchebag is irrelevant; EVGA has done wrong here. If they don't scrap the current version of PrecisionX after these findings then they have no integrity whatsoever.


----------



## OutlawII

I really appreciate all the work Unwinder does but why is he such a douche all the time? Sounds like a measure the weiner contest at best


----------



## wholeeo

Mods deleting post without warning, you guys are feminine.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I don't have a problem with that. What I had an issue with was them publishing this as a news article without consulting EVGA or Unwinder, based just off screenshots.


indeed it was not a professional move.

i am pretty sure they value the internet traffic more than they do resolving the situation considering there is three sides to a story always. yours, theirs, and the truth. Posting one sided articles is the same as gossiping







, they could have easily sent an email to EVGA to request a reply towards the situation


----------



## sticks435

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *INCREDIBLEHULK*
> 
> indeed it was not a professional move.
> 
> i am pretty sure they value the internet traffic more than they do resolving the situation considering there is three sides to a story always. yours, theirs, and the truth. Posting one sided articles is the same as gossiping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , they could have easily sent an email to EVGA to request a reply towards the situation


This is why I never download anything from them or read their reviews. This is nothing but a click bait article.


----------



## szeged

i go to techpowerup over guru3d whenever possible for a download, they are definitely a CLICK US PLEASE website, but still have some good info on there.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sticks435*
> 
> This is why I never download anything from them or read their reviews. This is nothing but a click bait article.


Completely disagree.

I've been a part of Guru3d since...The beginning in fact, we used to have to host our drivers on there because Alienware wouldn't let us host them on the servers...Some of them are still there, actually...Doubt anyone uses a 6800m anymore but, the 17x was a beast.

That being said, I do agree that Unwinder is mouthy but, Guru ALWAYS, sends a notification before publishing an article -- It's their mantra.

The fact that it wasn't refuted, doesn't make this a bait article because Unwinder actually has a leg to stand on.

In fact, he's got a pedestal to stand on in this situation.

His code was taken. The question is: With their permission or, not?

Guru is saying it was stolen. EVGA is saying they wrote it.

I don't quite understand where most of your doubletalk is coming from but, it really is that simple.

My money is on Unwinder considering the timeline -- I bet we could even get a chimp to discern the time difference between the product launches.


----------



## Brutuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vengeance47*
> 
> Gotta love this. If this was EA or MS being accused of stealing code people would be all over them hating on them. But because its about the almighty EVGA, the hate seems almost non-existent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, at this point in time, with the statements provided by both parties. You would have to be a lunatic to side with EVGA. Assuming that what Unwinder posted was true and correct information, then there is no way you could possibly side with EVGA. Sure, we don't know whether he is telling the truth or not but ultimately we probably never will and can only take things at face value. Given what he has listed there, I would have to seriously question EVGA here.
> 
> More than likely there is probably some confusion about ownership of code from previous collaborations, which is probably what is causing this issue. But even then, credit should be given where credit is due and claims of "100% from the ground up" should not be made unless its 100% factual, which it doesn't seem to be in this case.


Exactly, it's clear how little some people know...Rivatuner was around long before Precision or even Afterburner iirc and both are clearly based off of it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HybridCore*
> 
> If EVGA truly did it by themselves, that raises the question of what is the best way to code for a certain function? There's definitely several ways but I don't think you can blame them for trying to go the "best" way, even if somebody else has done it before them.
> 
> Its like a one company's software does the very basic motion of pour coffee while another company makes an entire Rube Goldberg for it. The second company is obviously going to go the easier way eventually so the performance (in this case simplicity and time taken to do the action) is the best. Although then people might start pointing at company 2 and saying they're coping company 1 when its kind of the only thing they can do.


The UI is a blatant copy, and was mostly around before Precision iirc. That's a lot different to having the fastest/best code and it being similar only from that...There is no "best way" to lay out a UI.


----------



## Rayleyne

HOnestly who cares what companies do to eachother thes3days, just buy what product you like the most bas3d on the product itself


----------



## djriful

I'm confused, isn't Precision been like this off Rivertuner? Day one I knew this is coming from RivaTuner and Afterburner copies.

Someone clear this up for me please. I thought EVGA just pay them and skin them for their own brands.


----------



## mtbiker033

It's hard to believe people are attacking Unwinder personally and calling him names, he has never done anything to me except provide me with free software

guru3d is a very reputable site in my eyes, best download speeds for files they host, trusted reviews etc. from just reading what's been said so far it's hard to believe evga is in the right here


----------



## th3illusiveman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtbiker033*
> 
> It's hard to believe people are attacking Unwinder personally and calling him names, he has never done anything to me except provide me with free software
> 
> guru3d is a very reputable site in my eyes, best download speeds for files they host, trusted reviews etc. from just reading what's been said so far it's hard to believe evga is in the right here


i agree with everything in this post. TBH i don't care much for any of this but I'm bored so i'm betting on unwinder in this catfight









edit: surprising how involved Hilbert is in this (G3D Boss), you would think a guy who relies on a company sending him free samples would hold back abit but he isn't lol.


----------



## serothis

I'm not sure what to believe. It's hard to believe that a company like evga would so blatantly plagiarize software but at the same time the evidence is pretty damning. evga's responses have been...unconvincing.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

The EVGA response posted in this thread is a complete joke.


----------



## brucethemoose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> The EVGA response posted in this thread is a complete joke.


Unfortunately, I'd have to agree. They didn't specifically address any of the evidence that unwinder pointed out. Regardless of what you think about the guy, you can go download precision and READ the copied EULA with your own eyes... Which seems to contradict EVGA's official statement.

While this has already tarnished the reputation of PrecisionX (which I wouldn't touch with a 2 foot pole), legally it may not matter. As others have pointed out, EVGA might own all those copied rivatuner design elements, which means they can truthfully claim that it's their design.

Also, don't blame the poor PR guys. I'm sure Jacob and others are having a bad day today


----------



## jumperfly

Image tainted = Lack of sales = Have to start making AMD cards to make money??


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVGA-JacobF*
> 
> EVGA will issue a formal reply shortly. There is definitely a lot more to this than most people think, or the article seemed to imply. Without a doubt there were no bad intentions from EVGA. I think most can agree just based on history that it is not EVGA policy to steal or deceive.


I really hope this is true. First blush doesn't look overly good for Precision X 15 and EVGA is without a doubt my favorite GPU company to deal with. However, if it turns out true that code & work was stolen, I can't see myself buying anything else from y'all until it's rectified.


----------



## brucethemoose

FYI the reply was already posted.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVGA-JacobF*
> 
> Official reply. Regarding T&C, simple oversight we will update on next release. I suppose it wasn't clear where it originated.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> First, we value the relationship that we have with RivaTuner Alex/Unwinder since Feb.13th, 2008. With EVGA and Alex/Unwinder mutual efforts, Precision has become a very popular overclocking utility since it launched. Afterburner's first release was in Oct. 2009.
> 
> It was originally EVGA's idea to provide the world's first "simple" overclocking GUI designed for NVIDIA cards that utilizes some of the Rivatuner technology for free. Due to some misinformation floating around about EVGA Precision recently, we would like to clarify several points. Also, EVGA wouldn't have any interest to develop our own version if Alex/Unwinder had showed his interest back then like we've seen today!
> 
> 1. The EVGA Precision main GUI (main Window) and format was fully designed and owned by EVGA, that means Alex/Unwinder did not design the Precision GUI at all. The Rivatuner technology was used for the backend like GPU reporting, OSD and overclocking. Other features like voltage tuning, pixel clock control and Bluetooth function were coded by EVGA. We want it to be clear that Rivatuner source code has never been released to EVGA. A year and half after Precision was introduced, Afterburner was released, that shared a lot of the same ideas and concepts originally set by EVGA's Precision, and also used Rivatuner technology.
> 2. Most gamers knew that some of the key features that have been requested and missed such as 64bit OSD, voltage control and video recording in the early versions of Precision, yet Afterburner had it. You probably don't know that some of those ideas were initiated and requested to Alex/Unwinder by EVGA to implement into Precision well before it was available in Afterburner, but Alex/Unwinder had no intention to add it. One year later they showed up in Afterburner exclusively without any notification and/or offer to EVGA. We felt that we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant if we continue this route.
> 
> We like Precision, the interface and the features, just like most of the gamers in the community, but under these circumstances, it became clear that in order to provide more features that are requested by the community, we needed to recode the back end from the ground up, using our own existing Precision skin designed as merely inspiration, that is why today we have the new EVGA PrecisionX 15. In the latest PrecisionX 15 we have put in some features like 64bit OSD support, Steam achievements and more. We want to make it clear that EVGA PrecisionX 15 is *100%* coded in house without using any code from the older Precision due to we don't have the source code since day one!
> 
> EVGA will continue adding features to support the community on PrecisionX15 for free as usual, and hope to inspire other overclocking utilities to be better for the entire gaming community.
> 
> The bottom line is that EVGA doesn't want any third party to dictate what features the community should or should not have!
> 
> EVGA
Click to expand...

The big point there: EVGA owns the GUI design rights. So ethics aside, it doesn't matter if they copied it or not.

Aside from that, they point fingers at Unwinder, accusing him of implementing their own (unimplemented) ideas and drifting away from EVGA. Not the best response IMHO :/


----------



## EinZerstorer

I'd care if the trash worked

more fail from evga

failboat full steam ahead.


----------



## AndroidVageta

LOL! You people are a joke now...come on.

Because they MAY have stolen some code or whatever people here are going all "forget you EVGA! Now I'm going to go drive my car that uses gas made by corporations that have severely polluted the environment and has killed untold number of animals!"

It's so hypocritical.


----------



## EinZerstorer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *szeged*
> 
> i go to techpowerup over guru3d whenever possible for a download, they are definitely a CLICK US PLEASE website, but still have some good info on there.


that's funny, gordan mah ung of maximum pc credited them as being reliable and useful in the latest podcast,

I'd say his opinion on the matter holds far greater weight considering his position in tech media over the past 15 years.........


----------



## EinZerstorer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> The EVGA response posted in this thread is a complete joke.


jacob completely lied to me saying that the 780ti updated bios * classified * has a 300 / 345 power limit,

when it really has a max 600 / 690w power draw limit, which could damage a card quite easily if reached.

I dont think he knows I have the ability to look into this these and with help from my ocn friends I've made in my short stay here, I just wanted to ask to see what they would say...

I have no trust nor respect for evga anymore except for vince lucido, that' dude and his close co workers are straight up as it gets.


----------



## Brutuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rayleyne*
> 
> HOnestly who cares what companies do to eachother thes3days, just buy what product you like the most bas3d on the product itself


That type of logic certainly has helped AMD over the years with Intel's biased compiler and unfair sales tactics.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jumperfly*
> 
> Image tainted = Lack of sales = Have to start making AMD cards to make money??


I don't think nVidia would let them, iirc XFX was a big nVidia partner and the day they started making AMD cards nVidia pretty much stopped them making nVidia cards.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AndroidVageta*
> 
> LOL! You people are a joke now...come on.
> 
> Because they MAY have stolen some code or whatever people here are going all "forget you EVGA! Now I'm going to go drive my car that uses gas made by corporations that have severely polluted the environment and has killed untold number of animals!"
> 
> It's so hypocritical.


Nice assumption there, but what about those of us who carpool, cycle or use public transport? You're on the internet, not every country is car-centric nor would you have any idea if you're talking to someone who manages to not use a car for everything.

Not to mention, how many car makers don't do that and make affordable cars that I could use right now? I do drive mainly (50 minute commute to work) but if I could get an electric you sure as hell can bet I would. There's not always a choice in the matter...


----------



## brucethemoose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AndroidVageta*
> 
> LOL! You people are a joke now...come on.
> 
> Because they MAY have stolen some code or whatever people here are going all "forget you EVGA! Now I'm going to go drive my car that uses gas made by corporations that have severely polluted the environment and has killed untold number of animals!"
> 
> It's so hypocritical.


You clearly don't understand how internet boycotts work.


----------



## AndroidVageta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brutuz*
> 
> Nice assumption there, but what about those of us who carpool, cycle or use public transport? You're on the internet, not every country is car-centric nor would you have any idea if you're talking to someone who manages to not use a car for everything.


I could give you examples all day everyday of companies/governments/whatever doing bad stuff all day that people are hypocritical about. Point is that shunning a company because of a mistake that didn't physically harm anyone or do mass damage to the economy or human race is hardly an issue.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> The EVGA response posted in this thread is a complete joke.


yeah, the whole situation seems like a joke.

kids pointing the finger instead of acting like big boys and working through to resolve whatever issues there may have been.


----------



## Brutuz

You missed the edited part of my post.

And a mistake? Yup, they just accidentally ripped the UI off completely and copy pasted the license agreement.







The fact is that someone in eVGA did this on purpose and that people with authority either didn't do their job or didn't care and approved it anyway...What if that extended to the QA process? Their X79 series does make you wonder..


----------



## mutantmagnet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sticks435*
> 
> Let's think about this. What software does Guru3D host. Mmmmm, that's right, Afterburner. What software do they not host. That's right, Precision. Who has been accused of getting paid by MSI to add features to Afterburner and not Precision. That's right, Unwinder. Who's a total dick on the forums most of the time. That's right, Unwinder. Why is the only website this news is on Guru3D. Put some numbers together and I think you can figure out that last answer.


Only? We'll see. Since they do hve a close relationship it's not hard to see why they would be the original source of the news.


----------



## EinZerstorer

" Well, I'll give my official statement on it as well. First, let me summarize the terms of our business relationships with the company. According to the contract I had to develop very simple overclocking tool for the company, take the following features from original RivaTuner and fit them into the concept art of EVGA's skin design:

Core / Shader / Memory adjustments
Ability to link/unlink Core/Shader clocks
Fanspeed adjustment
Monitoring utility (Monitor temps and all 3 clockspeeds, like Rivatuner monitoring)
Ability to save clocks / fanspeed on reboot.

Couple years later we extended the list of official contracted product functionality with advanced fan speed control (ability to define curve) and power target / thermal target adjustment support for modern NVIDIA GPUs.

My business obligations per contract were to provide the following support to the product: launch new versions of software to add support for new NVIDIA cards when they are released and fix bugs in the code if the company reports any. No new functionality development in any form was ever assumed. That's it as it is defined by contract signed by both parties. That's the functionality we included in the development budget and in royalty fees. That's how you had to see original EVGA Precision if it was designed by EVGA. And if the company is brave enough to call it "a lot of the same ideas and concepts originally set by EVGA's Precision" - let it be so.

Yes, I know I made a huge mistake myself, overclocking tools development is a passion and hobby of my life so I tried to combine the hobby and business and started adding new and new things to the project on top of commercially functionality licensed by EVGA. Now I learned the lesson, you cannot do it with business because the companies lose self-control because of greediness.

Anyway, this way Precision was powered up by other advanced features from original RivaTuner: G15 monitoring features, screen capture support, entire On-Screen Display support module, tray icon monitoring and so on. No development budget or royalty fees were ever requested for those features and additionally bundled applications like RTSS and it was absolutely OK for me to develop and support those things freely simply because I liked coding them. So I'm certain that I followed the contract 200%, but if the company thinks differently I see absolutely no problems in terminating the contract. But it is not OK for me to previously licensed things to get stolen. Especially, if the company got free license on them like it was with RTSS. Sorry, EVGA, but it is not OK.

And by the way, the company PR said at least a part of truth: EVGA indeed requested me to add 64bit OSD to Precision before it became available in Afterburner, but did it in rather interesting form. The company expected to add new free feature to RTSS they got freely to use it in commercial product.

Bravo. With Battlefield 4 launch both MSI and EVGA users wanted to get 64bit OSD badly. Both MSI and EVGA knew that it is rather time consuming task, both vendors perfectly realized that it is big job and it is not covered by the contract. MSI preferred to make users happy and invested into development of it. And other vendor preferred to sit and wait while some crazy Russian programmer code it for them freely due to his coding passion. So once again, if the company believe that they can call it " we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant" let it be so, I can only sadly smile on that.

Alexey Nicolaychuk aka Unwinder, RivaTuner creator "


----------



## MagicBox

Theft, Confiscation and Elimination. "Classified" business practice, by EVGA.


----------



## Tonza

EVGA Precision X: U N W I N D 3 R classified edition


----------



## brucethemoose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EinZerstorer*
> 
> " Well, I'll give my official statement on it as well. First, let me summarize the terms of our business relationships with the company. According to the contract I had to develop very simple overclocking tool for the company, take the following features from original RivaTuner and fit them into the concept art of EVGA's skin design:
> 
> Core / Shader / Memory adjustments
> Ability to link/unlink Core/Shader clocks
> Fanspeed adjustment
> Monitoring utility (Monitor temps and all 3 clockspeeds, like Rivatuner monitoring)
> Ability to save clocks / fanspeed on reboot.
> 
> Couple years later we extended the list of official contracted product functionality with advanced fan speed control (ability to define curve) and power target / thermal target adjustment support for modern NVIDIA GPUs.
> 
> My business obligations per contract were to provide the following support to the product: launch new versions of software to add support for new NVIDIA cards when they are released and fix bugs in the code if the company reports any. No new functionality development in any form was ever assumed. That's it as it is defined by contract signed by both parties. That's the functionality we included in the development budget and in royalty fees. That's how you had to see original EVGA Precision if it was designed by EVGA. And if the company is brave enough to call it "a lot of the same ideas and concepts originally set by EVGA's Precision" - let it be so.
> 
> Yes, I know I made a huge mistake myself, overclocking tools development is a passion and hobby of my life so I tried to combine the hobby and business and started adding new and new things to the project on top of commercially functionality licensed by EVGA. Now I learned the lesson, you cannot do it with business because the companies lose self-control because of greediness.
> 
> Anyway, this way Precision was powered up by other advanced features from original RivaTuner: G15 monitoring features, screen capture support, entire On-Screen Display support module, tray icon monitoring and so on. No development budget or royalty fees were ever requested for those features and additionally bundled applications like RTSS and it was absolutely OK for me to develop and support those things freely simply because I liked coding them. So I'm certain that I followed the contract 200%, but if the company thinks differently I see absolutely no problems in terminating the contract. But it is not OK for me to previously licensed things to get stolen. Especially, if the company got free license on them like it was with RTSS. Sorry, EVGA, but it is not OK.
> 
> And by the way, the company PR said at least a part of truth: EVGA indeed requested me to add 64bit OSD to Precision before it became available in Afterburner, but did it in rather interesting form. The company expected to add new free feature to RTSS they got freely to use it in commercial product.
> 
> Bravo. With Battlefield 4 launch both MSI and EVGA users wanted to get 64bit OSD badly. Both MSI and EVGA knew that it is rather time consuming task, both vendors perfectly realized that it is big job and it is not covered by the contract. MSI preferred to make users happy and invested into development of it. And other vendor preferred to sit and wait while some crazy Russian programmer code it for them freely due to his coding passion. So once again, if the company believe that they can call it " we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant" let it be so, I can only sadly smile on that.
> 
> Alexey Nicolaychuk aka Unwinder, RivaTuner creator "


This, along with EVGA's official statement, should be in the original post. I for one sympathize with you, TY for all you've done and don't let this discourage you.


----------



## Nonehxc

LOL'ing.









Has any of you got the *PIRATE THEMED* *PRECISION-X PREMIERE 15 YEARS* e-mail?




The irony is oh so delicious.


----------



## Luciferxy

Unwinder intended to counter this new PX with his own version
http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4874836&postcount=95

Kudos for him if he's really gonna do that.


----------



## s-x

If you read all the updates its pretty clear that they stole it. The only question is if and when is he going to take them to court over it.


----------



## Luciferxy

He's not going to, his own version of Px is the answer.


----------



## NimbleJack

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EinZerstorer*
> 
> " Well, I'll give my official statement on it as well. First, let me summarize the terms of our business relationships with the company. According to the contract I had to develop very simple overclocking tool for the company, take the following features from original RivaTuner and fit them into the concept art of EVGA's skin design:
> 
> Core / Shader / Memory adjustments
> Ability to link/unlink Core/Shader clocks
> Fanspeed adjustment
> Monitoring utility (Monitor temps and all 3 clockspeeds, like Rivatuner monitoring)
> Ability to save clocks / fanspeed on reboot.
> 
> Couple years later we extended the list of official contracted product functionality with advanced fan speed control (ability to define curve) and power target / thermal target adjustment support for modern NVIDIA GPUs.
> 
> My business obligations per contract were to provide the following support to the product: launch new versions of software to add support for new NVIDIA cards when they are released and fix bugs in the code if the company reports any. No new functionality development in any form was ever assumed. That's it as it is defined by contract signed by both parties. That's the functionality we included in the development budget and in royalty fees. That's how you had to see original EVGA Precision if it was designed by EVGA. And if the company is brave enough to call it "a lot of the same ideas and concepts originally set by EVGA's Precision" - let it be so.
> 
> Yes, I know I made a huge mistake myself, overclocking tools development is a passion and hobby of my life so I tried to combine the hobby and business and started adding new and new things to the project on top of commercially functionality licensed by EVGA. Now I learned the lesson, you cannot do it with business because the companies lose self-control because of greediness.
> 
> Anyway, this way Precision was powered up by other advanced features from original RivaTuner: G15 monitoring features, screen capture support, entire On-Screen Display support module, tray icon monitoring and so on. No development budget or royalty fees were ever requested for those features and additionally bundled applications like RTSS and it was absolutely OK for me to develop and support those things freely simply because I liked coding them. So I'm certain that I followed the contract 200%, but if the company thinks differently I see absolutely no problems in terminating the contract. But it is not OK for me to previously licensed things to get stolen. Especially, if the company got free license on them like it was with RTSS. Sorry, EVGA, but it is not OK.
> 
> And by the way, the company PR said at least a part of truth: EVGA indeed requested me to add 64bit OSD to Precision before it became available in Afterburner, but did it in rather interesting form. The company expected to add new free feature to RTSS they got freely to use it in commercial product.
> 
> Bravo. With Battlefield 4 launch both MSI and EVGA users wanted to get 64bit OSD badly. Both MSI and EVGA knew that it is rather time consuming task, both vendors perfectly realized that it is big job and it is not covered by the contract. MSI preferred to make users happy and invested into development of it. And other vendor preferred to sit and wait while some crazy Russian programmer code it for them freely due to his coding passion. So once again, if the company believe that they can call it " we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant" let it be so, I can only sadly smile on that.
> 
> Alexey Nicolaychuk aka Unwinder, RivaTuner creator "


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *s-x*
> 
> If you read all the updates its pretty clear that they stole it. The only question is if and when is he going to take them to court over it.


I am sorry, let me translate unwinders statement into legalese for you

1. Gui was skinned for evga, evga owns it

2. Evga purchased code from unwinder for specific features they requested, evga owns that code

3. Unwinder updated the code with features evga did not specifically request, evga owns that code

Legally unwinder can do nothing, but similarly evga can not sue for slander

That is why he is so cool about this, he is out of luck, he just learned a tough business lesson.


----------



## Krahe

And we all learned something about EVGA's business practices and loyalty to supporters.


----------



## szeged

Maybe his plan is to release his own version of px so evga sues him then he counter sues for stolen code.


----------



## un-nefer

I've never really been a fan of EVGA, but I have to say that it's a bit unfair to scream theft if EVGA actually paid uni-winder for the code to be developed for their own Px product.

But it is also unfair if EVGA is using other code they did not pay for in their new product without compensating uni-winder.


----------



## fateswarm

Slightly related fact for slight benefit. If you disable all AB graphs you go from e.g. ~0.16% CPU usage during all times to e.g. 0.03% usage at all times.

Better yet, you can kill it 10 seconds after start up with a scheduled task.

I've no idea why it eats up cycles anyway, it's supposed to be one-off.


----------



## Stealth Pyros

I was originally giving EVGA the benefit of the doubt. I mean, if they didn't have RTSS's source code, how could they have possibly copied from it? Then came this:
Quote:


> Both MSI and EVGA knew that it is rather time consuming task, both vendors perfectly realized that it is big job and it is not covered by the contract. MSI preferred to make users happy and invested into development of it. And other vendor preferred to sit and wait while some crazy Russian programmer code it for them freely due to his coding passion. So once again, if the company believe that they can call it " we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant" let it be so, I can only sadly smile on that.


Regardless of copying the code or not, the above just grinded my gears. EVGA is trying to play that good guy free consultant role when Alex is really the one that was their "free consultant," coding additional work for them that wasn't part of the project agreement. Of course we don't know whether it really was or wasn't. This could all just be another overblown media headline.


----------



## Capt

wow, what a garbage move by EVGA. Never buying another one of their products.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Capt*
> 
> wow, what a garbage move by EVGA. Never buying another one of their products.


This sort of reaction is just amazing to me personally. Nothing has been confirmed 100% and yet people are ready to jump on the barely justified conclusions train.


----------



## JoeelMex

Damn I just bought an EVGA 750ti FTW for my daughters computer. (We run Linux) so we don't use the EVGA Precision Tool but if I would have seen this before I would have ordered from a different vendor. EVGA should make this right. My 2 cents.


----------



## frickfrock999

Just spoke to a few people close to the story and they revealed some pretty disturbing details that will be coming to light soon.

Expect it.

And we all know how this is going to end.


----------



## Moragg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NimbleJack*
> 
> I am sorry, let me translate unwinders statement into legalese for you
> 
> 1. Gui was skinned for evga, evga owns it
> 
> 2. *Evga purchased code* from unwinder for specific features they requested, evga owns that code
> 
> 3. Unwinder updated the code with features evga did not specifically request, *evga owns that code*
> 
> Legally unwinder can do nothing, but similarly evga can not sue for slander
> 
> That is why he is so cool about this, he is out of luck, he just learned a tough business lesson.


Here is (what I think) is your mistake: EVGA effectively "licensed" the code, and as part of the agreement Unwinder had to update the code for a few things (e.g. new GPUs). They didn't buy it.

Unwinder added functionality for free, but when they asked for 64-bit support he asked for some more money. MSI did too, paid him, and got additional features. EVGA didn't, added their own features, called the whole thing "their own product" and stopped paying for the code of his they were still using.

EVGA does not own the code, they licensed it, and are currently using it without paying.

It's like renting a car, adding a spoiler and stop paying rent. i.e. Theft.

That's Unwinder's side of the story anyway, if I've understood this fiasco correctly, and so far EVGA hasn't given any evidence to the contrary, whereas he appears to have evidence of identical code.


----------



## bvsbutthd101

Didn't feel like opening a new thread but does anyone else have this annoyance. Even when I download precision from evga's website and not through steam. Steam always says that I'm "In-App" unless I close precision. I tried deleting the "steam_api64.dll" file from the precision folder but that causes it not to launch anymore.


----------



## Caples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *brasco*
> 
> Ouch. I was going to say hold off on throwing them under the bus but there's certainly some poor decisions going on if this is all true.


I'd stop paying him royalties, too, the way he treated EVGA and PrecisionX.


----------



## fateswarm

But I like their PSUs


----------



## lombardsoup

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> But I like their PSUs


...had to cringe


----------



## sherlock

If this is true it would indeed be disturbing news. But I don't see this deterring me from buying any EVGA product worth buying(i.e not motherboards).


----------



## szeged

The evga psus are good, I have to cringe at people who are stuck in the past....


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Ok so Maybe Evga messed up. But what bothers me is how some of you guys are getting all bent out of shape over this... For example, Intel basically blackmailed certain company's not to buy AMD and I dont see anybody saying "Intel used to be #1 my fav bla bla bla Now never again, AMD only" Some of you guys are such hypocrites, ... How about we wait till the dust settles before we act like little kids throwing mud? Ill say it again, I would buy evga over any GPU vendor any day because there customer service is awesome, This however dosnt mean i condone what they did if this is all true. If this is true they will get there punishment as they deserve and move on.


----------



## fleetfeather

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> This sort of reaction is just amazing to me personally. Nothing has been confirmed 100% and yet people are ready to jump on the barely justified conclusions train.


I find it ridiculous to think some people here won't be buying EVGA products because of this issue... I'm not saying EVGA did or didn't make a dog move here, I just doubt how anyone can actually claim that they wont be buying products from the dudes who spearhead the Nvidia GPU scene
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> Ok so Maybe Evga messed up. But what bothers me is how some of you guys are getting all bent out of shape over this... For example, Intel basically blackmailed certain company's not to buy AMD and I dont see anybody saying "Intel used to be #1 my fav bla bla bla Now never again, AMD only" Some of you guys are such hypocrites, ... How about we wait till the dust settles before we act like little kids throwing mud? Ill say it again, I would buy evga over any GPU vendor any day because there customer service is awesome, This however dosnt mean i condone what they did if this is all true. If this is true they will get there punishment as they deserve and move on.


Mate, there's no amount of sleezy corporate moves which will result in some of the OCN crowd swinging over to the red team hahah


----------



## fateswarm

Did anyone notify their representatives to check out this thread. I'm sure they will want to know. The backlash appears severe.


----------



## criminal

Shameful if true.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lombardsoup*
> 
> ...had to cringe


http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=346

Oh yeah, 10 out of 10, very bad.


----------



## benlavigne11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Did anyone notify their representatives to check out this thread. I'm sure they will want to know. The backlash appears severe.


Evga Jacob has responded in this thread, so I would say they know.


----------



## AK-47

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fleetfeather*
> 
> I find it ridiculous to think some people here won't be buying EVGA products because of this issue... I'm not saying EVGA did or didn't make a dog move here, I just doubt how anyone can actually claim that they wont be buying products from the dudes who spearhead the Nvidia GPU scene
> Mate, there's no amount of sleezy corporate moves which will result in some of the OCN crowd swinging over to the red team hahah


Well price was the only reason i was considering their PSU in the first place.
I never for for one second believed they were better than Corsair or Seasonic.
I'll spend the extra $30-50 to avoid a shady company
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> Ok so Maybe Evga messed up. But what bothers me is how some of you guys are getting all bent out of shape over this... For example, Intel basically blackmailed certain company's not to buy AMD and I dont see anybody saying "Intel used to be #1 my fav bla bla bla Now never again, AMD only" Some of you guys are such hypocrites, ... How about we wait till the dust settles before we act like little kids throwing mud? Ill say it again, I would buy evga over any GPU vendor any day because there customer service is awesome, This however dosnt mean i condone what they did if this is all true. If this is true they will get there punishment as they deserve and move on.


I used to boycott Intel but AMD just keeps dropping the ball in terms of performance.
Take their own mobile R9 290x for example.
Paired with a Intel CPU it's a great mobile graphics cards.
Paired with AMD's own APU it's garbage.
I kinda didn't have a choice in terms of CPU.
With PSUs and videocards I have a million choices.


----------



## fleetfeather

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=346
> 
> Oh yeah, 10 out of 10, very bad.


Is EVGA in trouble for using Super Flower's Leadex back-end components?


----------



## Kimir

I'm speechless when I see comment that says "won't buy EVGA product ever again". It's your loss, their PSU are the best, one of the best OEM and price lower than the competitors (and 10y warranty!), their Nvidia graphic cards are also the best when it come to non reference design, see the classy and Kingpin 780Ti, there is no better and it doesn't cost more than the competitor(s). On motherboard side, they have history with no so good bioses, won't comment on that as I never owned one.

Precision X is free for everyone to use, like Afterburner. Going on a riot for this, it's sad (if not the other word starting with an s).

And royalties mean getting paid, so saying that has been done for free is just wrong. Doing things that aren't in the contract is up to the creator, but no one can say it free as long as there is money involved.
Not like it's any of our (consumers) business, since it's free for us.


----------



## serothis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Capt*
> 
> wow, what a garbage move by EVGA. Never buying another one of their products.
> 
> 
> 
> This sort of reaction is just amazing to me personally. Nothing has been confirmed 100% and yet people are ready to jump on the barely justified conclusions train.
Click to expand...

I disagree.

The way I see it is like this:

A very serious accusation of plagiarism was made.
very strong evidence was presented.

If that's all we knew then I would agree with you

The problem is that evga has already given their official response.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVGA-JacobF*
> 
> Official reply. Regarding T&C, simple oversight we will update on next release. I suppose it wasn't clear where it originated.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> First, we value the relationship that we have with RivaTuner Alex/Unwinder since Feb.13th, 2008. With EVGA and Alex/Unwinder mutual efforts, Precision has become a very popular overclocking utility since it launched. Afterburner's first release was in Oct. 2009.
> 
> It was originally EVGA's idea to provide the world's first "simple" overclocking GUI designed for NVIDIA cards that utilizes some of the Rivatuner technology for free. Due to some misinformation floating around about EVGA Precision recently, we would like to clarify several points. Also, EVGA wouldn't have any interest to develop our own version if Alex/Unwinder had showed his interest back then like we've seen today!
> 
> 1. The EVGA Precision main GUI (main Window) and format was fully designed and owned by EVGA, that means Alex/Unwinder did not design the Precision GUI at all. The Rivatuner technology was used for the backend like GPU reporting, OSD and overclocking. Other features like voltage tuning, pixel clock control and Bluetooth function were coded by EVGA. We want it to be clear that Rivatuner source code has never been released to EVGA. A year and half after Precision was introduced, Afterburner was released, that shared a lot of the same ideas and concepts originally set by EVGA's Precision, and also used Rivatuner technology.
> 2. Most gamers knew that some of the key features that have been requested and missed such as 64bit OSD, voltage control and video recording in the early versions of Precision, yet Afterburner had it. You probably don't know that some of those ideas were initiated and requested to Alex/Unwinder by EVGA to implement into Precision well before it was available in Afterburner, but Alex/Unwinder had no intention to add it. One year later they showed up in Afterburner exclusively without any notification and/or offer to EVGA. We felt that we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant if we continue this route.
> 
> We like Precision, the interface and the features, just like most of the gamers in the community, but under these circumstances, it became clear that in order to provide more features that are requested by the community, we needed to recode the back end from the ground up, using our own existing Precision skin designed as merely inspiration, that is why today we have the new EVGA PrecisionX 15. In the latest PrecisionX 15 we have put in some features like 64bit OSD support, Steam achievements and more. We want to make it clear that EVGA PrecisionX 15 is *100%* coded in house without using any code from the older Precision due to we don't have the source code since day one!
> 
> EVGA will continue adding features to support the community on PrecisionX15 for free as usual, and hope to inspire other overclocking utilities to be better for the entire gaming community.
> 
> The bottom line is that EVGA doesn't want any third party to dictate what features the community should or should not have!
> 
> EVGA
Click to expand...

evga has had their opportunity to respond and address the accusations. They didn't. At no point does evga's response say "alex/unwinder violated the terms of our contract." and they continue to insist that all the code they used was build from the ground up and no code was taken from RTSS, when the evidence pretty clearly contradicts that claim.

Now that both parties have had a say, I think it's perfectly fair to start reaching conclusions. If new evidence comes to light then it needs to be taken into consideration but at present this is what we have and both parties have had a chance to give their side of the story.


----------



## renji1337

I feel like people saying they'd never buy a evga product again is pretty harsh.


----------



## sherlock

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *renji1337*
> 
> I feel like people saying they'd never buy a evga product again is pretty harsh.


People will say anything on the Internet to make themselves look righteous.







Whether they carry it out IRL is another matter.


----------



## TheLAWNOOB

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *renji1337*
> 
> I feel like people saying they'd never buy a evga product again is pretty harsh.


I'm sure people said the same when AMD sues intel for anti-competitive practices. Where's intel now in terms of market share? Haven't loss any.


----------



## RagingCain

I am sorry, I just need more of the real story.

Frankly, I don't see what EVGA did wrong.

Taking concepts of one product you like and building your own versions is a very common practice. A EULA agreement copy over is not indicative of anything really.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benlavigne11*
> 
> Evga Jacob has responded in this thread, so I would say they know.


I was just going to say that. Im sure hes reading this thread right now. I stand behind Jacob 110% I have personally had many conversions with him over the years and hes a great guy and has gone above and beyond for me in many situations as far as getting things right. I know he wouldn't say something he didnt have the facts. Unfortunately though he may be getting his facts from someone at evga and those facts may be wrong . Jacob is not a programmer so He has to take there word for it im sure.
editnot saying what he said is false)


----------



## Stealth Pyros

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I am sorry, I just need more of the real story.
> 
> Frankly, I don't see what EVGA did wrong.
> 
> Taking concepts of one product you like and building your own versions is a very common practice. A EULA agreement copy over is not indicative of anything really.


I remember WarZ's EULA was copied from League of Legends and everyone shut up about it when the huge backlash died out a few days later and everyone realized it didn't really matter. Not to say anything good came out of WarZ but it really wasn't the scam everyone made it out to be. The game is still alive and updated today.


----------



## NimbleJack

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moragg*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *NimbleJack*
> 
> I am sorry, let me translate unwinders statement into legalese for you
> 
> 1. Gui was skinned for evga, evga owns it
> 
> 2. *Evga purchased code* from unwinder for specific features they requested, evga owns that code
> 
> 3. Unwinder updated the code with features evga did not specifically request, *evga owns that code*
> 
> Legally unwinder can do nothing, but similarly evga can not sue for slander
> 
> That is why he is so cool about this, he is out of luck, he just learned a tough business lesson.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is (what I think) is your mistake: EVGA effectively "licensed" the code, and as part of the agreement Unwinder had to update the code for a few things (e.g. new GPUs). They didn't buy it.
> 
> Unwinder added functionality for free, but when they asked for 64-bit support he asked for some more money. MSI did too, paid him, and got additional features. EVGA didn't, added their own features, called the whole thing "their own product" and stopped paying for the code of his they were still using.
> 
> EVGA does not own the code, they licensed it, and are currently using it without paying.
> 
> It's like renting a car, adding a spoiler and stop paying rent. i.e. Theft.
> 
> That's Unwinder's side of the story anyway, if I've understood this fiasco correctly, and so far EVGA hasn't given any evidence to the contrary, whereas he appears to have evidence of identical code.
Click to expand...

He uses "contractually" and "liscenced" in the same breath, he should clear up that wording because it will dictate which way ithis goes. Either evga hired him to write the code for them, or evga liscensed the code from him. It appears that unwinder signed a contract stating he would write the code for evga, otherwise if this was a liscensing deal the entire wording would be different as well as noticeable difference as regards to copyright markings and such.

Edit: weird spoiler tag, sorry, mobile post


----------



## benlavigne11

I don't know if we will ever find out the truth about the underlying code. Folder structure being cloned does seem odd / suspect though. Regardless of the underlying code I don't think the underlying menus should be a direct clone from rivatuner. I realize this makes it easier for current users and not having to re-learn the UI but this portion of the UI was not developed by EVGA and they did not pay for it from what I can see from their responses.

Sure the initial EVGA branded interface being the same is fine, but inside the menus and opening the statistics / monitoring if this was completely new code, the UI shouldn't be exact.

I think we have more of the story to hear, so I am listening carefully. Based on what I have currently seen though I think that eVGA still has some explaining to do as to why the product looks exactly the same, something isn't adding up.


----------



## TheReciever

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AndroidVageta*
> 
> I could give you examples all day everyday of companies/governments/whatever doing bad stuff all day that people are hypocritical about. Point is that shunning a company because of a mistake that didn't physically harm anyone or do mass damage to the economy or human race is hardly an issue.


That is simply your opinion within what your view allows to see.

Just because you are detached from repercussions doesn't mean the next guy will share your sentiment.


----------



## mtbiker033

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I am sorry, I just need more of the real story.
> 
> Frankly, I don't see what EVGA did wrong.
> 
> Taking concepts of one product you like and building your own versions is a very common practice. A EULA agreement copy over is not indicative of anything really.


it clearly indicates that said party has no problem completely copy/pasting something that someone else wrote/created


----------



## TFL Replica

Threatening to boycott EVGA's entire lineup of products over an issue with PrecisionX doesn't sound very mature.


----------



## mk16

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TFL Replica*
> 
> Threatening to boycott EVGA's entire lineup of products over an issue with PrecisionX doesn't sound very mature.


it may be one of our rules but if you hadnt noticed, being mature isnt something most of ocn is good at.


----------



## benlavigne11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TFL Replica*
> 
> Threatening to boycott EVGA's entire lineup of products over an issue with PrecisionX doesn't sound very mature.


I would disagree. It's not an issue with a utility, it is an issue with a company stealing the gaming community's work.

Granted I am still waiting to hear more of the story but if it turns out EVGA maliciously stole the code and thought they would get away with it then I would have no issue buying from another vendor. There are plenty of good vendors in the space EVGA occupies.


----------



## Roaches

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TFL Replica*
> 
> Threatening to boycott EVGA's entire lineup of products over an issue with PrecisionX doesn't sound very mature.


Agreed!

Quite amusing how this thread quickly escalated from the beginning lol. Will keep tabs on this to see how it develops, I sense lots of entertainment ahead.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I am sorry, I just need more of the real story.
> 
> Frankly, I don't see what EVGA did wrong.
> 
> Taking concepts of one product you like and building your own versions is a very common practice. A EULA agreement copy over is not indicative of anything really.


They actually, according to Unwinder, copy/pasted the entire thing when the Afterburner "enhancements" weren't shared.

The EULA was copy/pasted word for word, as was the GUI and //all// of the base coding.

The only real argument to be had was, did Unwinder give EVGA permission or not.

Unwinder says: No, you stole my code.

Evga/Jacob, with a ton of talking in circles and double talk basically says: Well, I don't think we did but, we're investigating to see how badly we copied him but, right now we don't have an answer.

The GURU3D article sums it up quite well -- It was copied. Did they have permission or not?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Roaches*
> 
> Agreed!
> 
> Quite amusing how this thread quickly escalated from the beginning lol. Will keep tabs on this to see how it develops, I sense lots of entertainment ahead.


Every EVGA product you buy, with some exceptions is re-branded Nvidia hardware. -- What they did with Precision was extremely unethical.

ASUS is getting better and has virtually the same warranty...If I don't agree with EVGA's business practices, there are other options for the same exact hardware.


----------



## VSG

Masked, how do you not realize EVGA sells more than just GPUs? Or are you choosing to ignore all that?

Also, if you really think Asus has vitually the same warranty then I am really speechless.

Agreed with everything else in there other than the possibility where Unwinder didn't own anything to give permission to.


----------



## BusterOddo

Well I for one hope Unwinder gets what he is deserved if his accusations turn out to be legitimate. I have been using his software for years and couldn't be happier with its functionality. EVGA sure seems to buying time with the responses they put out, because they aren't very convincing that they didn't do what they are being accused of.


----------



## sherlock

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Every EVGA product you buy, with some exceptions is re-branded Nvidia hardware. -- What they did with Precision was extremely unethical.
> 
> ASUS is getting better and has virtually the same warranty...If I don't agree with EVGA's business practices, there are other options for the same exact hardware.


Their PSU, Motherboard, case and Mice are certainly not re-branded Nvidia hardware(the only Nv rebrands they sale are GPU and tablet). ASUS may have the same warranty terms, but their warranty service track record(at least in NA) is as bad as EVGA's is good.


----------



## Simmons572

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Masked, how do you not realize EVGA sells more than just GPUs? Or are you choosing to ignore all that?
> 
> Also, if you really think Asus has vitually the same warranty then I am really speechless.


I was thinking the same thing. EVGAs warranty services are far superior to Asus. That is the main reason I recomend EVGA products to my friends/clients rather than Asus, even though both of my computers consist of mainly Asus products...

That being said, I think we need more info about the lisencing before y'all start a riot.


----------



## szeged

I thought I killed my rampage iv black three days ago, I was getting ready to just buy a new one instead of dealing with Asus rma rofl. Good thing it came back to life.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Masked, how do you not realize EVGA sells more than just GPUs? Or are you choosing to ignore all that?
> 
> Also, if you really think Asus has vitually the same warranty then I am really speechless.
> 
> Agreed with everything else in there other than the possibility where Unwinder didn't own anything to give permission to.


GPU's account for over 3/4 of their sales (Estimating but, I'm not far off according to their rumored sales)...So when you actually break this down to Joe Public, Joe Public doesn't care about their re-branded PSU, or their motherboards because all Joe Public cares about are their video cards. Ironically, I'd wager a bet with you that OCN's interest in EVGA is about 80% graphics cards...So, what else they have is rather irrelevant per this discussion and my point.

ASUS, does have a similar warranty...It's shoddy sometimes but, their replacement policy is similar. If you don't like ASUS, there's MSI...Gigabyte...There are OTHER options than EVGA.

My point is that, in this market, there are other options OTHER than EVGA if you don't believe in their business practices.

If they're willing to blatantly rip off Afterburner, blatantly -- It's practically copied/pasted...And their only response is Jacob talking in circles...Than, it's pretty cut and dry what EVGA believes in and that's $$$$. They USED to believe in the customer.

I'd rather deal with the occasional headache from ASUS, than a company that repeatedly screws their customers (X79 Classified, anyone?) in one way, or another.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sherlock*
> 
> Their PSU, Motherboard, case and Mice are certainly not re-branded Nvidia hardware(the only Nv rebrands they sale are GPU and tablet). ASUS may have the same warranty terms, but their warranty service track record(at least in NA) is as bad as EVGA's is good.


Their PSU's actually are with the exception of the largest 2. - At least they used to be...

Double checked with my distributor -- They are -- They're re-branded FSP and Super Flower's.


----------



## fateswarm

To be honest, this will have 0 backlash on their financials, the big picture. So it might be interesting to see the legal details and information only. Chances are, whatever you think about it, hate it or love it, 99.9% of their customers will never even know about it.


----------



## szeged

99% of gpu buyers don't even know what afterburner or pecisionX is, we are the 1%.


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> My point is that, in this market, there are other options OTHER than EVGA if you don't believe in their business practices.


Not for voltage unlocked Nvidia flagship GPUs that don't require voiding warranty, there aren't. But this is besides the point, as is the X79 Classified debacle where I completely agree with you by the way.


----------



## bhav

Why don't MSI make lightnings anymore?

I'm gonna be trying ASUS GPUs next though, because I want some matching red ROG brand goodness.


----------



## gooface

I have an EVGA card, I dont use their app, I use MSI Afterburner on it. Shame on EVGA for doing this. Give the man credit for his work, don't steal it.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TFL Replica*
> 
> Threatening to boycott EVGA's entire lineup of products over an issue with PrecisionX doesn't sound very mature.


It speaks to the company's integrity or lack there of. It's also a consumers right to align with a company they believe in. What's striking is your lack of care over what corporation you use and their lack of integrity. And add to that being bothered by what others feel and how they voice their opinion with the only means they have, their pocket book.


----------



## Feyris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bhav*
> 
> Why don't MSI make lightnings anymore?
> 
> I'm gonna be trying ASUS GPUs next though, because I want some matching red ROG brand goodness.


What do you mean dont make lightnings? Theres a 780 lightning.... 780 Ti lightning will be here before end of year too. Ohgod I love asus but I would never buy a GPU from them. Noisy from what I have heard? or something or other...


----------



## WiLd FyeR

Kool.. Hopefully EVGA would lower their prices down a bit for PR.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> GPU's account for over 3/4 of their sales (Estimating but, I'm not far off according to their rumored sales)...So when you actually break this down to Joe Public, Joe Public doesn't care about their re-branded PSU, or their motherboards because all Joe Public cares about are their video cards. Ironically, I'd wager a bet with you that OCN's interest in EVGA is about 80% graphics cards...So, what else they have is rather irrelevant per this discussion and my point.
> 
> ASUS, does have a similar warranty...It's shoddy sometimes but, their replacement policy is similar. If you don't like ASUS, there's MSI...Gigabyte...There are OTHER options than EVGA.
> 
> My point is that, in this market, there are other options OTHER than EVGA if you don't believe in their business practices.
> 
> If they're willing to blatantly rip off Afterburner, blatantly -- It's practically copied/pasted...And their only response is Jacob talking in circles...Than, it's pretty cut and dry what EVGA believes in and that's $$$$. They USED to believe in the customer.
> 
> They STILL DO believe in customers... I had a perfectly functioning 780 that didnt oc very well. I told Jacob this, and even though ocing is not guaranteed for any vendor let alone a reason to RMA it Jacob did just that.. Also on top of that he threw in free 2 day crossshipping... Id like to see any other vendor do that. This presicion x thing is way overblown. I can think of ALOT worse thing to be acused of LOL...


----------



## bhav

The GTX 780 Ti lightning is far too late if it is going to happen. There's a new gen out in a few months.


----------



## sherlock

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> It speaks to the company's integrity or lack there of. It's also a consumers right to align with a company they believe in. What's striking is your lack of care over what corporation you use and their lack of integrity. And add to that being bothered by what others feel and how they voice their opinion with the only means they have, their pocket book.


If you are going to do that(Boycott the entire product line of a company for their lack of integrity) you might as well boycott the following:
All Intel products
All Samsung Products
Any HDD maker(Seagate included)

How are you going to put a worthwhile enthusiast PC together after doing all that I wonder? All those company listed above committed worse offense than what EVGA did here, yet you still buy their products without hesitation.


----------



## jtom320

The reason people can ignore Intel's shadiness with amd and call out EVGA in the next breath is because (if true) evga is essentially picking on one of us. Speaking personally I am not worried about what corporations do to each other.


----------



## Capt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> It speaks to the company's integrity or lack there of. It's also a consumers right to align with a company they believe in. What's striking is your lack of care over what corporation you use and their lack of integrity. And add to that being bothered by what others feel and how they voice their opinion with the only means they have, their pocket book.


Couldn't have said it better myself! +rep


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> It speaks to the company's integrity or lack there of. It's also a consumers right to align with a company they believe in. What's striking is your lack of care over what corporation you use and their lack of integrity. And add to that being bothered by what others feel and how they voice their opinion with the only means they have, their pocket book.


So if some one offered you a free evga 780ti would you say "Heck no!! I dont belive in evga, there scumbags!! I stand by my morals!" Id be willing to bet youd take that in a heartbeat, as anybody would...All im saying is every company does things that may not be cool. Heck your running an Intel processor, Intel screwed AMD big many times and you dont seem to care? If your going to say what you said try not to be a hypocrite.


----------



## anubis1127

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Feyris*
> 
> What do you mean dont make lightnings? Theres a 780 lightning.... 780 Ti lightning will be here before end of year too. Ohgod I love asus but I would never buy a GPU from them. Noisy from what I have heard? or something or other...


Nope. 780Ti will not be released to consumers at any point. I agree ASUS GPUs are garbage.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *bhav*
> 
> The GTX 780 Ti lightning is far too late if it is going to happen. There's a new gen out in a few months.


It was released, they made somewhere around 12 of them. I think one of them made it to North America.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> *ASUS is getting better* and has virtually the same warranty...If I don't agree with EVGA's business practices, there are other options for the same exact hardware.


What do you mean by getting better? Last I checked they were still releasing rubbish GPUs. Which GPU have they released that is better? None of the NV line has been worth a damn except the reference ones, which don't really count, because they didn't get a chance to mess those up. The last AMD ASUS GPU I tried was junk too, 7970 Matrix Platinum.

That warranty bit is pretty laughable, the length of the "warranty" may be the same, but with ASUS that's all you get is a quote-unquote warranty, actually getting them to replace a defective product is a small miracle, and often takes several RMAs, and escalations to supervisors, etc.


----------



## VSG

Come on guys, getting really off topic now. But then again, without any more facts and Unwinder having said he won't be doing anything legal about this (Assuming he could in the first place), this thing is more or less just speculation now.


----------



## inedenimadam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *szeged*
> 
> 99% of gpu buyers don't even know what afterburner or pecisionX is, we are the 1%.


We are the 1%, you are absolutely correct. However, this does not mean that pissing off the enthusiast community is a good idea. Because we are the people that write articles for tech sites, detailed product reviews, and complain in public forums. So when Joe Shmoe is poking around the internet, goggling his next purchase, chances are he will run into one of our opinions. So yes, we are the 1%, but we are not a force to be taken likely, because our opinion can make or break a product before it even hits the shelves. eVGA would be wise to recognize this.

The steering wheel on a car weighs but a fraction of the whole, yet determines which direction it the whole of the car travels


----------



## Allanitomwesh

So basically
EVGA paid Unwinder for the basics. MSI put up cash for the awesome. Unwinder kept presision competitive as a courtesy. EVGA assumed they deserved free updates. Unwinder told them hell no, pay like MSI. EVGA stole the bits of freebie they had lying around and claimed "in house" . Did I miss anything?


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inedenimadam*
> 
> We are the 1%, you are absolutely correct. However, this does not mean that pissing off the enthusiast community is a good idea. Because we are the people that write articles for tech sites, detailed product reviews, and complain in public forums. So when Joe Shmoe is poking around the internet, goggling his next purchase, chances are he will run into one of our opinions. So yes, we are the 1%, but we are not a force to be taken likely, because our opinion can make or break a product before it even hits the shelves. eVGA would be wise to recognize this.
> 
> The steering wheel on a car weighs but a fraction of the whole, yet determines which direction it the whole of the car travels


Factor in though those that don't take the story to be important or they don't consider it conclusive.

Also I've learned to never underestimate human naivety.


----------



## xentrox

Sounds like a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg... Good luck to all parties involved.


----------



## RagingCain

Do we have proof EVGA is using Unwinder's code and not code they wrote themselves making it an internal application?


----------



## TFL Replica

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Do we have proof EVGA is using Unwinder's code and not code they wrote themselves making it an internal application?


Nobody outside of EVGA has seen the source code, as far as I know.


----------



## Quesoblanco

I love the jumping to conclusions in this thread. There hasn't been anything else put out and the one source is from Unwinder himself. You people are sad. Do you really think EVGA after being so long in the business would just copy it blatantly? Without covering bases? rofl









There are always 2 sides to every story, don't believe one side. EVER.


----------



## benlavigne11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Quesoblanco*
> 
> I love the jumping to conclusions in this thread. There hasn't been anything else put out and the one source is from Unwinder himself. You people are sad. Do you really think EVGA after being so long in the business would just copy it blatantly? Without covering bases? rofl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are always 2 sides to every story, don't believe one side. EVER.


Considering the product looks exactly the same and the EULA even mentions unwinder I don't think they covered "ALL" their bases. rofl


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Quesoblanco*
> 
> I love the jumping to conclusions in this thread. There hasn't been anything else put out and the one source is from Unwinder himself. You people are sad. Do you really think EVGA after being so long in the business would just copy it blatantly? Without covering bases? rofl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are always 2 sides to every story, don't believe one side. EVER.


+1
Until the smoke settles Some of these guys need to chill.


----------



## sugarhell

Unwinder
Quote:


> Hope those are my last comments on this story. First, there are different rumors walking on the net related to the product licensing terms. Some people are trying to justify copying from the previous versions, so Id like to clarify that to prevent any misunderstanding:
> 
> The agreement defines the following intellectual property ownership terms: software product which I develop remains my copyrighted property, but during the contract the company receives exclusive distribution rights on it. Besides exclusive software distribution rights the company exclusively owns all the rest intellectual property, which is not directly related to software and which I could create during the contract: i.e. product name, product logos, artwork. Thats all. There are absolutely no ways to fit any form of previous software copy-pasting into the licensing model.
> 
> Second, I just decided to peek inside "in-house" application EXE. I'd better avoid doing so: even my original EXE string table is inside new executable as is. Including all the messages of original application, including all the messages of my proprietary USF skin compiler / decompiler built into original RivaTuner skinning engine, even including the references to original RivaTuner core libraries (RTTSH.dll). Even including the messages related to RivaTuners G15 LCD output module, which the company probably also tried to clone but couldnt get working yet. Really, EVGA?
> Dear company PRs, take a fair advice and simply stop giving any public comments with fake excuses. Im not going to start a legal action against the company, Im not asking for ANY compensation. I just want to let my users know the truth, protect my software, my ideas and technologies and then forget our past partnership. Just keep your lips sealed and let this story die istelf. Do not beat the dead horse.


----------



## wstanci3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Unwinder


Interested by his "conclusion" to this entire story, to be honest.

He wants this entire thing to just "die".
His stance on this only makes me want to know more about this debacle.

That does not mean I am siding with him just yet, nor with EVGA. Siding with anyone at this point is just folly.


----------



## Quesoblanco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Unwinder


Hmmm no legal action? Must not be that serious.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Unwinder


If a company takes my product like EVGA was accused of, then for sure I would take legal action.


----------



## Quesoblanco

His whole attitude changed. Lol something happened......


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Unwinder


Sugar, may you be so kind as to provide the source for those comments, sir?

Thanks.


----------



## anubis1127

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Sugar, may you be so kind as to provide the source for those comments, sir?
> 
> Thanks.


http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/evga-steals-the-rivatuner-rtss-design-concept-into-precisionx-15,13.html


----------



## Capt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Quesoblanco*
> 
> His whole attitude changed. Lol something happened......


EVGA probably offered him free GPUs for lifetime.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Sugar, may you be so kind as to provide the source for those comments, sir?
> 
> Thanks.


http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/evga-steals-the-rivatuner-rtss-design-concept-into-precisionx-15,12.html

Read the comments below


----------



## szeged

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Capt*
> 
> EVGA probably offered him free GPUs for lifetime.


They probably caught him slip up somewhere in his story and got him in a bind so now he has to backtrack.


----------



## criminal

If EVGA did steal the code and is now trying to pass it on as fully written by them, that does show a lack of integrity. But I am willing to bet that those involved in the "stealing" didn't notify everyone else in the company of what they did. Gasp! EVGA Jacob seems like an up and up guy and may not know the whole story or what to say at this point. Everyone should get a grip and calm down until we know the full true story.

But yeah, there is no perfect company that I know of. If this is all true and they did steal the code, then people show their disgust with their wallets by not buying anymore EVGA products. It would be hard, but when the time comes to upgrade again, I would like to think the outcome of this situation makes an impact on my purchasing decision. Who knows though since I really am on the fence about using someone other than EVGA for my gpu's.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *szeged*
> 
> They probably caught him slip up somewhere in his story and got him in a bind so now he has to backtrack.


He doesnt live in US so he cant start any legal actions


----------



## szeged

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> He doesnt live in US so he cant start any legal actions


I know I meantb his attitude to the situation. First he was furious now he's like " lol let's just forget this happened "


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Quesoblanco*
> 
> His whole attitude changed. Lol something happened......


Did you read only the first sentence? He completely dismisses EVGA's claims on the text.


----------



## serothis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Quesoblanco*
> 
> I love the jumping to conclusions in this thread. There hasn't been anything else put out and the one source is from Unwinder himself. You people are sad. Do you really think EVGA after being so long in the business would just copy it blatantly? Without covering bases? rofl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are always 2 sides to every story, don't believe one side. EVER.


you're right. Unfortunately evga already put out their official reply.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



First, we value the relationship that we have with RivaTuner Alex/Unwinder since Feb.13th, 2008. With EVGA and Alex/Unwinder mutual efforts, Precision has become a very popular overclocking utility since it launched. Afterburner's first release was in Oct. 2009.

It was originally EVGA's idea to provide the world's first "simple" overclocking GUI designed for NVIDIA cards that utilizes some of the Rivatuner technology for free. Due to some misinformation floating around about EVGA Precision recently, we would like to clarify several points. Also, EVGA wouldn't have any interest to develop our own version if Alex/Unwinder had showed his interest back then like we've seen today!

1. The EVGA Precision main GUI (main Window) and format was fully designed and owned by EVGA, that means Alex/Unwinder did not design the Precision GUI at all. The Rivatuner technology was used for the backend like GPU reporting, OSD and overclocking. Other features like voltage tuning, pixel clock control and Bluetooth function were coded by EVGA. We want it to be clear that Rivatuner source code has never been released to EVGA. A year and half after Precision was introduced, Afterburner was released, that shared a lot of the same ideas and concepts originally set by EVGA's Precision, and also used Rivatuner technology.
2. Most gamers knew that some of the key features that have been requested and missed such as 64bit OSD, voltage control and video recording in the early versions of Precision, yet Afterburner had it. You probably don't know that some of those ideas were initiated and requested to Alex/Unwinder by EVGA to implement into Precision well before it was available in Afterburner, but Alex/Unwinder had no intention to add it. One year later they showed up in Afterburner exclusively without any notification and/or offer to EVGA. We felt that we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant if we continue this route.

We like Precision, the interface and the features, just like most of the gamers in the community, but under these circumstances, it became clear that in order to provide more features that are requested by the community, we needed to recode the back end from the ground up, using our own existing Precision skin designed as merely inspiration, that is why today we have the new EVGA PrecisionX 15. In the latest PrecisionX 15 we have put in some features like 64bit OSD support, Steam achievements and more. We want to make it clear that EVGA PrecisionX 15 is 100% coded in house without using any code from the older Precision due to we don't have the source code since day one!

EVGA will continue adding features to support the community on PrecisionX15 for free as usual, and hope to inspire other overclocking utilities to be better for the entire gaming community.

The bottom line is that EVGA doesn't want any third party to dictate what features the community should or should not have!

EVGA



Basically EVGA is claiming that eveything in the new precisionX is built from scratch. Unwinder pointed out that there is identical functionally to his RTSS including exact word for word copies, like the EULA.
Quote:


> Do you really think EVGA after being so long in the business would just copy it blatantly?


That's what has a lot of people stunned. You'd think they wouldn't but the evidence is looking like that's exactly what happened.


----------



## twerk

Cleaned of off-topic/rude posts and reopened.


----------



## somethingname

EVGA pretty mugh admitted to just copying/cloning it. Are they on drugs? get it together man. I still might buy that 1k EVGA PSU because it's cheap but i'm boycotting everything else branded by EVGA

"the original GUI was 100% designed by EVGA", while in fact the only thing EVGA designed was the main skin. The rest is RivaTuner Core architecture (like all UI screenshots shown in our news-post).

"The menus and such look similar too because, well why change them? They work well and people are familar with how they look."

Yep, that's basically saying we copied/cloned it.


----------



## AK-47

just gonna leave this here


----------



## lombardsoup

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AK-47*
> 
> 
> just gonna leave this here


lol


----------



## VSG

That is a random forum member like any of us, nothing to do with EVGA.

Edit: Glad you recognized it and changed your post accordingly


----------



## RagingCain

As far as I can tell.. this is still a he said / company said situation.

I find it odd that EVGA is in this situation as all my dealings with EVGA have been stellar, but I think its enough to warrant some consideration.

I don't necessarily think that Unwinder is lying either, but not to pursue legal discourse can be a sign that he made a mistake contractually/license wise.

He wants to make a big deal publicly, but not officially... ...where the public often leaps to its own conclusion and often requires no proof.


----------



## Allanitomwesh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Cleaned of off-topic/rude posts and reopened.


Like magic.
Basically what I gather from Unwinder's latest comments is that
1.He has realised EVGA's "in house" guys can't code as well and aren't that much of a threat [hence I can do it right and will comments]
2.He feels sorry for EVGA and would rather not see them destroyed by negative PR
3.He really isn't after the money,but EVGA were jerks and he had to make that public.

As for EVGA,you really don't want to be the big bad corprate who robbed the little guy. Look at Monsanto.
Lastly,I always preffered Zotac







yeah I said it!


----------



## fateswarm

Chances are it's a technical mistake that they figured it's not an advantage addressing truthfully.

That attack posted above based on his nationality might be relevant (not that they initiated it).

In a week nobody will remember about it.


----------



## serothis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> As far as I can tell.. this is still a he said / company said situation.
> 
> I find it odd that EVGA is in this situation as all my dealings with EVGA have been stellar, but I think its enough to warrant some consideration.
> 
> I don't necessarily think that Unwinder is lying either, *but not to pursue legal discourse can be a sign that he made a mistake contractually/license wise.*
> 
> He wants to make a big deal publicly, but not officially... ...where the public often leaps to its own conclusion and often requires no proof.


He's one guy and he lives in Russia (or the Ukraine. I forget where). Going after a large cooperation like EVGA is hard enough, but pursuing legal action from another country with minimal resources probably isn't feasible, even if he's in the right.


----------



## Liranan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AK-47*
> 
> 
> just gonna leave this here


Words can't describe this guys mindless hate. He truly is utter trash but he has the right to voice his opinion, regardless of how vile it is.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serothis*
> 
> He's one guy and he lives in Russia (or the Ukraine. I forget where). Going after a large cooperation like EVGA is hard enough, but pursuing legal action from another country with minimal resources probably isn't feasible, even if he's in the right.


He's from the Ukraine. Pursuing legal action is irrelevant considering EVGA's copy/paste is so poorly done their Precision X program is riddled with bugs that, according to their own forums, renders the program unusable at times. They will always be a step behind Unwinder and Afterburner.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serothis*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> As far as I can tell.. this is still a he said / company said situation.
> 
> I find it odd that EVGA is in this situation as all my dealings with EVGA have been stellar, but I think its enough to warrant some consideration.
> 
> I don't necessarily think that Unwinder is lying either, *but not to pursue legal discourse can be a sign that he made a mistake contractually/license wise.*
> 
> He wants to make a big deal publicly, but not officially... ...where the public often leaps to its own conclusion and often requires no proof.
> 
> 
> 
> He's one guy and he lives in Russia (or the Ukraine. I forget where). Going after a large cooperation like EVGA is hard enough, but pursuing legal action from another country with minimal resources probably isn't feasible, even if he's in the right.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, for Unwinder, without proof or a legal foundation, it is technically just slander.


----------



## Liranan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Unfortunately, for Unwinder, without proof or a legal foundation, it is technically just slander.


Have you been following this saga at all or did you read a few comments then decided to post your own? It's been stated repeatedly that EVGA even copy/pasted Afterburner's EULA and that's just the start of it. The UI is a blatant copy and legal redress is irrelevant, he has the better product, EVGA do not. The only slanderous thing so far have been EVGA's responses to this debacles, they are so bad that their PR department should be ashamed of themselves. If you need more proof look at when Afterburner was released with its current UI and then Precision's release dates with their so called 'in house' UI.


----------



## Allanitomwesh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Unwinder*
> I live in the city located in 50km of Russian / Ukrainian border, if you watch news and understand what I mean. There are far more bad things happening here now to start wasting time on suing some company located far in US.


This as to why he won't sue.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NimbleJack*
> 
> I am sorry, let me translate unwinders statement into legalese for you
> 
> 1. Gui was skinned for evga, evga owns it
> 
> 2. Evga purchased code from unwinder for specific features they requested, evga owns that code
> 
> 3. Unwinder updated the code with features evga did not specifically request, evga owns that code
> 
> Legally unwinder can do nothing, but similarly evga can not sue for slander
> 
> That is why he is so cool about this, he is SOL, he just learned a tough business lesson.


Not so clear...

There is selling something to someone and there is licensing something, they are entirely different. Was EVGA licensing features and usage, or did they actually purchase them?


----------



## SIDWULF

Well whatever, Riva tuner programmer is too lazy to program overlay monitoring support for 64bit games...

Seriously He said it was "To much work"


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SIDWULF*
> 
> Well whatever, Riva tuner programmer is too lazy to program overlay monitoring support for 64bit games...
> 
> Seriously He said it was "To much work"












He already did it...


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Liranan*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Unfortunately, for Unwinder, without proof or a legal foundation, it is technically just slander.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you been following this saga at all or did you read a few comments then decided to post your own? It's been stated repeatedly that EVGA even copy/pasted Afterburner's EULA and that's just the start of it. The UI is a blatant copy and legal redress is irrelevant, he has the better product, EVGA do not. The only slanderous thing so far have been EVGA's responses to this debacles, they are so bad that their PR department should be ashamed of themselves. If you need more proof look at when Afterburner was released with its current UI and then Precision's release dates with their so called 'in house' UI.
Click to expand...

So Unwinded says one thing.
EVGA says another.
Unwinder is taking the moral high ground accusing EVGA, where EVGA has zero defense.
Unwinder is not suing them or anything, nor providing proof of his findings.

This is EVGA Precision X's current EULA:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVGA*
> LICENSE AGREEMENT:
> 
> Your use of EVGA Precision X is governed by the following conditions. Please read this information carefully before using this software. By using it you are agreeing to the following conditions:
> 
> 1. EVGA Precision X can be only distributed electronically through or on utility CD with graphics cards manufactured by EVGA Corporation. Distribution through other websites or in any other form without permission of EVGA Corporation is prohibited.
> 
> 2. EVGA Precision X is supplied "as-is". EVGA Corporation assumes no liability for damages, direct or consequential, which may result from the use of EVGA Precision X.
> 
> 3. EVGA Precision X is a registered trademark and copyrighted material of EVGA Corporation. You may not decompile, disassemble or otherwise reverse engineer this product. You may not alter or modify EVGA Precision X in any way or create a new installer for it.
> 
> 4. EVGA Precision X uses licensed third party bundled utilities, core and user interface libraries. These components are copyrighted materials of their author. You may not decompile, disassemble or otherwise reverse engineer these components. You may not use these components in your products without author's permission.
> 
> Copyright (C) 2008-2014, EVGA Corportation


----------



## LancerVI

Regardless of the legal things going on and their consequences; it's pretty clear this was a scumbag move by EVGA.

Never been a EVGA guy. Can't see myself becoming one either.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

I did notice that they removed the "100% reworked" from the precsion x 15 page. maybe they are backtracking or made a deal with unwinder?


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LancerVI*
> 
> Regardless of the legal things going on and their consequences; it's pretty clear this was a scumbag move by EVGA.
> 
> Never been a EVGA guy. Can't see myself becoming one either.


I honestly don't think it's clear at all. I think all parties have a vested interest, therefore biased, at stake and there is more to the story that we will probably never find out about.

The level of features different, missing, and general... instability/issues... Precision does not look like they are in fact using the 17 year old RivaTuner.

It looks like someone has just recently put it together and now they need to work on getting the kinks out. That's my developer opinion, not end user.


----------



## SIDWULF

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He already did it...


when?


----------



## BusterOddo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SIDWULF*
> 
> Well whatever, Riva tuner programmer is too lazy to program overlay monitoring support for 64bit games...
> 
> Seriously He said it was "To much work"


Dude this was added like 10 months ago...


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SIDWULF*
> 
> when?


BF 4 with Afterburner


----------



## mtbiker033

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> I did notice that they removed the "100% reworked" from the precsion x 15 page. maybe they are backtracking or made a deal with unwinder?


that's what I'm thinking, they probably made a settlement with him and he is now trying to calm everyone down

although, he lives 50km from the Ukrainian - Russian border so he definitely has more important concerns atm


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SIDWULF*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He already did it...
> 
> 
> 
> when?
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BusterOddo*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *SIDWULF*
> 
> Well whatever, Riva tuner programmer is too lazy to program overlay monitoring support for 64bit games...
> 
> Seriously He said it was "To much work"
> 
> 
> 
> Dude this was added like 10 months ago...
Click to expand...

Keep in mind though, having multiple OSD capable pieces of software running can ruin it.

Latest version of RivaTuner:
Quote:


> Known limitations:
> RivaTuner Statistics Server can be incompatible with some third-party On-Screen Display software (e.g. XFire or Steam In-Game
> Chat). The limitation is not specific to our product, many third-party products are designed to be the only On-Screen Display
> products in the system and to block their own functionality when any other On-Screen Display software is running
> Anticheat systems of some online games may restrict On-Screen Display usage and block connection to the server when the
> RivaTuner Statistics Server is running
> RTV1 encoder performance in 64-bit applications is currently lower than in 32-bit applications
> *Stealth hooking mode is currently not supported in 64-bit applications, so it is strongly not recommended to run other 64-bit OnScreen Display software in conjunction with RivaTuner Statistics Server*


I learned the hard way


----------



## maarten12100

Unwinder ain't gonna sue well either way EVGA just pulled a Intel in my book if Nvidia cards ever become affordable again I probably won't buy from them again. There is no point as the lifetime and 10 year warranties are gone so who cares really.


----------



## DFroN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bvsbutthd101*
> 
> Didn't feel like opening a new thread but does anyone else have this annoyance. Even when I download precision from evga's website and not through steam. Steam always says that I'm "In-App" unless I close precision. I tried deleting the "steam_api64.dll" file from the precision folder but that causes it not to launch anymore.


This is annoying me also. I'm in game but Steam says I'm currently in Precision X, which means nobody will invite me to their party :'( Only annoyance so far, the rest of the program seems greatly improved.


----------



## SIDWULF

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BusterOddo*
> 
> Dude this was added like 10 months ago...


It has NEVER worked with BF4. I have the latest version.


----------



## LancerVI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I honestly don't think it's clear at all. I think all parties have a vested interest, therefore biased, at stake and there is more to the story that we will probably never find out about.
> 
> The level of features different, missing, and general... instability/issues... Precision does not look like they are in fact using the 17 year old RivaTuner.
> 
> It looks like someone has just recently put it together and now they need to work on getting the kinks out. That's my developer opinion, not end user.


Claiming something was developed "in house" when clearly it was not and copied from another program, regardless of if you had the right to do it, is pretty clear cut scumbaggery in my eyes.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LancerVI*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I honestly don't think it's clear at all. I think all parties have a vested interest, therefore biased, at stake and there is more to the story that we will probably never find out about.
> 
> The level of features different, missing, and general... instability/issues... Precision does not look like they are in fact using the 17 year old RivaTuner.
> 
> It looks like someone has just recently put it together and now they need to work on getting the kinks out. That's my developer opinion, not end user.
> 
> 
> 
> Claiming something was developed "in house" when clearly it was not and copied from another program, regardless of if you had the right to do it, is pretty clear cut scumbaggery in my eyes.
Click to expand...

Except there is no proof that is what they did, other than having the same EULA agreement they have had for all previous releases, which was fixed today, in build 5.0.0.0.17.

I am decompiling both applications side by side myself, even though I am not supposed to.

The stuff that Unwinder is saying is "identical" i.e. "string tables" and more looks a lot like Visual Studio 2008 IDE output of compilation. I know both programs were compiled by Visual Studio.

The decompilations, while messy, do not match save for one or two key words that does appear to be from Visual Studio usage.

EVGA furthermore, have Symantec time stamping and Versign certification.


----------



## BusterOddo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SIDWULF*
> 
> It has NEVER worked with BF4. I have the latest version.


Here is my post from the BF4 thread when Afterburner/Rivatuner was updated to support 64bit. Download links are in the post, but all versions since then support it:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1375478/official-battlefield-4-information-discussion-thread/14520#post_21386127

Edit: I apologize. It has been 8 months since this support was added not 10 as I stated earlier.


----------



## LancerVI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Except there is no proof that is what they did, other than having the same EULA agreement they have had for all previous releases, which was fixed today, in build 5.0.0.0.17.
> 
> I am decompiling both applications side by side myself, even though I am not supposed to.
> 
> The stuff that Unwinder is saying is "identical" i.e. "string tables" and more looks a lot like Visual Studio 2008 IDE output of compilation. I know both programs were compiled by Visual Studio.
> 
> The decompilations, while messy, do not match save for one or two key words that does appear to be from Visual Studio usage.
> 
> EVGA furthermore, have Symantec time stamping and Versign certification.


Well I don't have your expertise, so maybe I spoke out of turn. I will defer to your knowledge of the subject.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I am decompiling both applications side by side myself, even though I am not supposed to.


Nice. It's what the forum should be doing from the start. Instead of going back on forth on the mundanes.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LancerVI*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Except there is no proof that is what they did, other than having the same EULA agreement they have had for all previous releases, which was fixed today, in build 5.0.0.0.17.
> 
> I am decompiling both applications side by side myself, even though I am not supposed to.
> 
> The stuff that Unwinder is saying is "identical" i.e. "string tables" and more looks a lot like Visual Studio 2008 IDE output of compilation. I know both programs were compiled by Visual Studio.
> 
> The decompilations, while messy, do not match save for one or two key words that does appear to be from Visual Studio usage.
> 
> EVGA furthermore, have Symantec time stamping and Versign certification.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I don't have your expertise, so maybe I spoke out of turn. I will defer to your knowledge of the subject.
Click to expand...

I just want everyone to stop jumping to conclusions. If EVGA's marketing over spoke or over sold something, or EVGA did rip off of Unwinder's code, that does suck. Point blank, but I am not ready to burn EVGA corporation down. Looking at the application, as a UI guy, I could replicate the menus of the UI (just the look, not functionality) of Afterburner in a day. Just by looking at and having Visual Studio. I am also super lazy too.

Unwinder has done amazing work and has never given us reason to suspect anything nefarious or otherwise from him, but I am not ready to take what he says as gospel. I just want some real facts.


----------



## LancerVI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I just want everyone to stop jumping to conclusions. If EVGA's marketing over spoke or over sold something, or did rip off of Unwinder's code, that does suck. Point blank, but I am not ready to burn EVGA corporation down.
> 
> Unwinder has done amazing work and has never given us reason to suspect otherwise from him, but I am not ready to take what he says as gospel.
> 
> Just want some facts is all.


He has done some great work and I take him at his word, but again, as you rightly point out, that's all I have.


----------



## bavarianblessed

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SIDWULF*
> 
> It has NEVER worked with BF4. I have the latest version.


It works in Afterburner, not Precision X. Both are based on RivaTuner and developed by Unwinder. He was paid to implement the update into Afterburner.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LancerVI*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I just want everyone to stop jumping to conclusions. If EVGA's marketing over spoke or over sold something, or did rip off of Unwinder's code, that does suck. Point blank, but I am not ready to burn EVGA corporation down.
> 
> Unwinder has done amazing work and has never given us reason to suspect otherwise from him, but I am not ready to take what he says as gospel.
> 
> Just want some facts is all.
> 
> 
> 
> He has done some great work and I take him at his word, but again, as you rightly point out, that's all I have.
Click to expand...



There is a lot of garbage I am going through.

I can tell you this claim by Unwinder is not true for build 5.0.0.0.17:
Quote:


> Second, I just decided to peek inside "in-house" application EXE. I'd better avoid doing so: even my original EXE string table is inside new executable as is. Including all the messages of original application, including all the messages of my proprietary USF skin compiler / decompiler built into original RivaTuner skinning engine, *even including the references to original RivaTuner core libraries (RTTSH.dll).* Even including the messages related to RivaTuner's G15 LCD output module, which the company probably also tried to clone but couldn't get working yet. Really, EVGA?


Now that doesn't mean Unwinder is lying, per se. It isn't true as for this build right now.

That could mean old unused source, old comments, old used code removed recently removed, etc. Or my tools/skills aren't as good as Unwinders, which is also true.


----------



## anubis1127

Nice, seems the RivaTuner Wiki was updated recently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RivaTuner


----------



## Stealth Pyros

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SIDWULF*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *BusterOddo*
> 
> Dude this was added like 10 months ago...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has NEVER worked with BF4. I have the latest version.
Click to expand...

Been working for me for nearly a year, from the very moment the first beta/final release supporting it released.


----------



## Aparition

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LancerVI*
> 
> Claiming something was developed "in house" when clearly it was not and copied from another program, regardless of if you had the right to do it, is pretty clear cut scumbaggery in my eyes.


That seems kinda harsh no? EVGA did hire Unwinder to code Precision but the planning and development probably all did take place under EVGA's roof. Development can be a high level project document, doesn't necessarily mean hand written code.

To me this is just a dispute of contract which happens all the time and is basically normal business. There is a lot of sensationalism in this thread. You have to also take into account that Precision has been very stagnant for a long time, it was only a matter of time before EVGA moved full development to 'in house'.


----------



## Stealth Pyros

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LancerVI*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I honestly don't think it's clear at all. I think all parties have a vested interest, therefore biased, at stake and there is more to the story that we will probably never find out about.
> 
> The level of features different, missing, and general... instability/issues... Precision does not look like they are in fact using the 17 year old RivaTuner.
> 
> It looks like someone has just recently put it together and now they need to work on getting the kinks out. That's my developer opinion, not end user.
> 
> 
> 
> Claiming something was developed "in house" when *clearly* it was not and copied from another program, regardless of if you had the right to do it, is pretty clear cut scumbaggery in my eyes.
Click to expand...

Nothing is "clear." Everyone needs to quit spewing this crap. Unless you have sincerely looked at the source code of both, you don't know squat.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aparition*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *LancerVI*
> 
> Claiming something was developed "in house" when clearly it was not and copied from another program, regardless of if you had the right to do it, is pretty clear cut scumbaggery in my eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> That seems kinda harsh no? EVGA did hire Unwinder to code Precision but the planning and development probably all did take place under EVGA's roof. Development can be a high level project document, doesn't necessarily mean hand written code.
> 
> To me this is just a dispute of contract which happens all the time and is basically normal business. There is a lot of sensationalism in this thread. You have to also take into account that Precision has been very stagnant for a long time, it was only a matter of time before EVGA moved full development to 'in house'.
Click to expand...

I think this is exactly what happened and Unwinder has very good reason to think they could be using his code.

However, I think doing this all out in public has blown it up.


----------



## Oopsypoopsy

Still going to buy EVGA

I could care less about Precision


----------



## AndroidVageta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheReciever*
> 
> That is simply your opinion within what your view allows to see.
> 
> Just because you are detached from repercussions doesn't mean the next guy will share your sentiment.


Sure, it's all opinion, I guess, but it comes down to who's opinion is correct?

You may not agree that corporations and governments are corrupt (how could you?) but that doesn't change the fact that they are.


----------



## mtbiker033

LOL

http://steamcommunity.com/app/268850/discussions/0/41973820581398948/


----------



## TheReciever

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AndroidVageta*
> 
> Sure, it's all opinion, I guess, but it comes down to who's opinion is correct?
> 
> You may not agree that corporations and governments are corrupt (how could you?) but that doesn't change the fact that they are.


I can care less about that subject, to which I was not replying to.

Just because you cant see the repercussions ( or refuse to do so ) doesn't make it nonexistent


----------



## AndroidVageta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheReciever*
> 
> I can care less about that subject, to which I was not replying to.
> 
> Just because you cant see the repercussions ( or refuse to do so ) doesn't make it nonexistent


Right, but that was my whole point. People are freakin FLIPPIN OUT over this yet don't seem to give a DAMN about annnnyyyyy of the other ACTUAL problems and issues surrounding them all day.

Let's put some of this anger and energy towards something that ACTUALLY matters, eh?

Either way, still hypocritical.


----------



## TheReciever

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AndroidVageta*
> 
> Right, but that was my whole point. People are freakin FLIPPIN OUT over this yet don't seem to give a DAMN about annnnyyyyy of the other ACTUAL problems and issues surrounding them all day.
> 
> Let's put some of this anger and energy towards something that ACTUALLY matters, eh?
> 
> Either way, still hypocritical.


your missing it though.

2 parties are defending what they believe to be their intellectual property.

The reason they do so, is they stand to lose IP pending the result of this altercation.

IP has value, losing that value can lead to a number of repercussions.

Whether or not you agree with the general positions of the onlookers is entirely up to you.


----------



## RagingCain

I have to get back to work.

My official opinion is that EVGA did not rebuild their program from scratch (like they stated), but after everything I went through (garbage), I am leaning towards believing EVGA.

*Some Reasons Why*:
As an amateur developer, who doesn't know anything, EVGA PrecisionX is approximately 10x in physical size as RTSS, and about 8x Afterburner.

It has verification from Symantec, Verisign, and someone else. They have copyright beginning 2013. Meaning pretty much this was not an over night built program/maneuver. STEAM API code has been incorporated. I know the Achievements you can get for STEAM. I particularly was amused to whatever "Thunder God" is, so I will have to look at the STEAM page later. While buggy, it doesn't appear to be a hack job.

They also have different dependencies, which is odd. EVGA PrecisionX has not named Visual Runtime libraries VC90 as an added assembly.

*A few sections of code do have similar function names.* Which in itself, is not indicative of plagiarism. *At first it did grab my attention.* I am an on again and off again computer science major, so the concept of plagiarism and plagiarism work arounds has come up quite a bit.
This is an example of Precision:


Spoiler: Precision, 5.0.0.0.17



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And:


Spoiler: RTSS



[email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ € ÿÿÿ ¨sA [email protected][email protected]@[email protected]@@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ ¨sA [email protected]@ Næ@»± ¿D ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿþÿÿÿ



Last:


Spoiler: Afterburns



[email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected][email protected]@[email protected]@@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected][email protected]@[email protected]@@ d?D [email protected][email protected]@[email protected]@@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@@[email protected]@@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ € ÿÿÿ ÿÿÿÿd?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@@[email protected]@@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected][email protected]@[email protected]@@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@@[email protected]@@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected][email protected]@[email protected]@@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ d?D [email protected]@ HD



AVCxxxxyyyy, very common, but also using words, that are closely related.

This happens in several locations. The order of the function names maybe similar, but are usually out of order, separated by several other functions, but of the three, PrecisionX has vastly more code.

Now you may think, they simply renamed functions, like I did. Obfuscation. It isn't quite obfuscation either, as the function names are both legible and coherent. At least it isn't computer controlled obfuscation. There are simply thousands of these and of those thousands I went through, I have caught maybe 3 or 4 identical function calls. *Oddly, this program functioned off of RivaTuner just recently, but only 3 or 4 identical calls? I seriously expected more duplication even if it was unintended.* You may think, well that kind of proves they didn't do it, but keep in mind there is so much to wade through and I only went through enough to feel satisfied in being able to see a difference. It would take more work to reword all these functions than it might be to write their own code. It's easy work, but very time consuming. It also doesn't explain why they have more functions in nearly every category. What then? Did they split individual functions to multiple functions to avoid detection? I am honestly thinking no.

I then tried to find similar sections of code by anchor words. By finding "anchor words", that is words or symbols so unique, they should appear very few times, one can often extrapolate they are looking at the same functional layout in the code. Code that probably is doing similar things. In copied code this would be expected to be identical and identically placed. Something that also can't be renamed.

For example:


Spoiler: KERNEL32.DLL, Precision



GetConsoleMode º InitializeCriticalSectionAndSpinCount à LCMapStringA â LCMapStringW z CreateFileA WriteConsoleA › GetConsoleOutputCP š WriteConsoleW © GetCurrentDirectoryA ¼ GetDriveTypeA & GetProcessHeap Ý SetEnvironmentVariableA KERNEL32.dll g SendMessageW ¤ SetTimer Ñ KillTimer Ñ EnableWindow GetClientRect - SetRect ® InvalidateRect -





Spoiler: KERNEL32.DLL, RTSS



GetVersion } ExitProcess ž TerminateProcess ÷ GetCurrentProcess ú GetCurrentThreadId ¥ TlsSetValue ¢ TlsAlloc £ TlsFree ¤ TlsGetValue m SetHandleCount R GetStdHandle GetFileType P GetStartupInfoA U DeleteCriticalSection $ GetModuleFileNameA ² FreeEnvironmentStringsA ³ FreeEnvironmentStringsW Ò WideCharToMultiByte GetEnvironmentStrings GetEnvironmentStringsW HeapDestroy › HeapCreate ¿ VirtualFree Ÿ HeapFree ß WriteFile ª InitializeCriticalSection f EnterCriticalSection Á LeaveCriticalSection ™ HeapAlloc ¿ GetCPInfo ¹ GetACP 1 GetOEMCP » VirtualAlloc ¢ HeapReAlloc > GetProcAddress Â LoadLibraryA ä MultiByteToWideChar ¿ LCMapStringA À LCMapStringW S GetStringTypeA V GetStringTypeW / RtlUnwind KERNEL32.dll



There were a couple of similarities here, i.e. LCMapStringA, LCMapStringW, however, that isn't really evidence of a whole ton. We are looking at garbage. So I compared the full blocks of code to each other.


Spoiler: KERNEL32.DLL, Precision, FULL CHUNK



*SteamAPI_Shutdown
SteamAPI_RunCallbacks SteamAPI_RegisterCallback SteamAPI_UnregisterCallback WINMM.dll steam_api64.dll . SizeofResource LockResource õ LoadResource ; FindResourceW S QueryPerformanceCounter ¹ InitializeCriticalSection î LeaveCriticalSection Û EnterCriticalSection À DeleteCriticalSection ª GetCurrentDirectoryW*

GetPrivateProfileStringW ø SetLastError ç GetLastError ó LoadLibraryW ú GetModuleHandleW " GetProcAddress / OpenMutexW CreateMutexW w ReleaseMutex D CloseHandle / Sleep ö GetModuleFileNameW è GetLocalTime s CreateDirectoryW È lstrlenW ˆ WideCharToMultiByte MultiByteToWideChar { GetVersionExW « GetCurrentProcess & FindFirstFileW FindClose s GetUserDefaultLangID Q FreeResource M GetSystemInfo œ GlobalUnlock ' GlobalFree Š GlobalAlloc • GlobalLock MoveFileW € RemoveDirectoryW Å DeleteFileW ™ GlobalSize GetPrivateProfileSectionNamesW GetPrivateProfileSectionW T QueryPerformanceFrequency r WaitForSingleObject N FreeLibrary ð LoadLibraryA ÷ GetModuleHandleA MulDiv ü LocalFree J FormatMessageW g CopyFileW ¬ GetCurrentProcessId z GetVersionExA ¼ lstrcmpW V CompareStringW Œ GlobalDeleteAtom Ž GlobalFindAtomW ‰ GlobalAddAtomW ¯ GetCurrentThreadId SetThreadPriority ResumeThread » lstrcmpA Ç lstrlenA 2 FindNextFileW FileTimeToSystemTime FileTimeToLocalFileTime S CompareStringA ò LoadLibraryExW ë GetLocaleInfoW ë EnumResourceLanguagesW \ ConvertDefaultLocale ® GetCurrentThread GetPrivateProfileIntW ¡ WritePrivateProfileStringW Í GetFileAttributesExW CreateFileW Ð GetFileAttributesW × GetFileSizeEx Ø GetFileTime ø LocalAlloc c GetThreadLocale h ReadFile › WriteFile ì SetFilePointer C FlushFileBuffers LockFile M UnlockFile Ú SetEndOfFile Ö GetFileSize Ö DuplicateHandle ~ GetVolumeInformationW á GetFullPathNameW B TlsGetValue @ TlsAlloc ˜ GlobalReAlloc " GlobalHandle C TlsSetValue ÿ LocalReAlloc A TlsFree " GlobalGetAtomNameW GlobalFlags Â lstrcpyW ß SetErrorMode ] GetTempFileNameW _ GetTempPathW J GetSystemDirectoryW ¤ SearchPathW j GetTickCount 3 GetProfileIntW h VirtualProtect : FindResourceExW = GetStartupInfoW S GetSystemTimeAsFileTime ¦ HeapFree ¢ HeapAlloc b VirtualAlloc j VirtualQuery ˜ RtlLookupFunctionEntry ž RtlUnwindEx Z RaiseException š RtlPcToFileHeader © HeapReAlloc ExitThread ¤ CreateThread

SetStdHandle Ù GetFileType ExitProcess ¨ HeapQueryInformation « HeapSize # SetUnhandledExceptionFilter > GetStdHandle õ GetModuleFileNameA M FreeEnvironmentStringsW Ã GetEnvironmentStringsW r GetCommandLineW ô SetHandleCount < GetStartupInfoA × EncodePointer ¹ DecodePointer @ FlsGetValue A FlsSetValue ? FlsFree > FlsAlloc ª HeapSetInformation ¤ HeapCreate ; TerminateProcess L UnhandledExceptionFilter Ð IsDebuggerPresent Ÿ RtlVirtualUnwind ' RtlCaptureContext o GetTimeZoneInformation ] GetCPInfo ° GetDateFormatA l GetTimeFormatA T GetACP GetOEMCP Ú IsValidCodePage r GetUserDefaultLCID é GetLocaleInfoA ú EnumSystemLocalesA Ü IsValidLocale @ GetStringTypeA C GetStringTypeW &#8230; GetConsoleCP - GetConsoleMode º InitializeCriticalSectionAndSpinCount à LCMapStringA â LCMapStringW z CreateFileA WriteConsoleA › GetConsoleOutputCP š WriteConsoleW © GetCurrentDirectoryA ¼ GetDriveTypeA & GetProcessHeap Ý SetEnvironmentVariableA *KERNEL32.dll* g SendMessageW ¤ SetTimer Ñ KillTimer Ñ EnableWindow GetClientRect - SetRect ® InvalidateRect - PtInRect k SetCapture O ReleaseCapture GetDesktopWindow Œ GetWindowRect Î IsWindowVisible GetDC E ClientToScreen å LoadMenuW = CheckMenuItem m GetSubMenu ModifyMenuW È DrawTextW Ý LoadImageW Û LoadIconW ß EnumDisplayMonitors R GetMonitorInfoW Á IsIconic q GetSystemMetrics ¿ DrawIcon N GetMessagePos X ScreenToClient

WindowFromPoint 6 RedrawWindow W GetParent # PostMessageW O CopyRect ó FindWindowW À ShowWindow € SetForegroundWindow MessageBoxW I CloseWindow ¸ SetWindowsHookExW á UnhookWindowsHookEx p GetSystemMenu

AppendMenuW ° SetWindowRgn GetCursorPos B RegisterHotKey é UnregisterHotKey É IsWindow SetParent e CreatePopupMenu CallNextHookEx OffsetRect ˜ DeleteMenu ù GetActiveWindow v SetCursor Ù LoadCursorW P ReleaseDC ñ UpdateWindow 3 GetKeyState $ ChangeDisplaySettingsExW R RemoveMenu D GetMenuItemCount E GetMenuItemID ª InsertMenuW K GetMenuStringW I GetMenuState SetFocus † GetWindowLongW GetWindow š SetScrollPos i GetScrollPos " GetWindowTextW ' GetWindowTextLengthW ï FillRect Ï TabbedTextOutW Ç DrawTextExW ˜ GrayStringW GetWindowDC
BeginPaint Õ EndPaint n GetSysColor Ê IsWindowEnabled : GetLastActivePopup " GetWindowThreadProcessId GetMenu CallWindowProcW - DefWindowProcW ® SetWindowPlacement ™ SetScrollInfo h GetScrollInfo - DeferWindowPos ì EqualRect AdjustWindowRectEx : RegisterClassW GetClassInfoW GetClassInfoExW h CreateWindowExW ½ ShowScrollBar j GetScrollRange › SetScrollRange &#8230; SetMenu × TrackPopupMenu [ ScrollWindow ÷ MapWindowPoints PeekMessageW O GetMessageTime ¬ SetWindowLongPtrW &#8230; GetWindowLongPtrW DestroyWindow w GetTopWindow Ò EndDeferWindowPos BeginDeferWindowPos © DispatchMessageW j SetActiveWindow ' GetForegroundWindow T RemovePropW ^ GetPropW - SetPropW

GetClassLongPtrW GetClassNameW GetCapture ¹ IsChild WinHelpW ] SendDlgItemMessageA N RegisterWindowMessageW Ó EndDialog U GetNextDlgTabItem [ CreateDialogIndirectParamW Ï EnableMenuItem Õ LoadBitmapW @ GetMenuCheckMarkDimensions ‰ SetMenuItemBitmaps ú ValidateRect Ý TranslateMessage P GetMessageW ¥ InflateRect G GetMenuItemInfoW ž DestroyMenu Í SystemParametersInfoW 2 GetKeyNameTextW ö MapVirtualKeyW $ PostQuitMessage Ð IsZoomed û MessageBeep ò MapDialogRect © SetWindowContextHelpId ¼ ShowOwnedPopups : CharUpperW o GetSysColorBrush ˜ SetRectEmpty ç UnregisterClassW WaitMessage & PostThreadMessageW L CopyAcceleratorTableW Õ ToUnicodeEx 4 GetKeyboardLayout 8 GetKeyboardState GetAsyncKeyState š DestroyAcceleratorTable Ó LoadAcceleratorsW R CreateAcceleratorTableW





Spoiler: KERNEL32.DLL, RTSS, FULL CHUNK



[email protected][email protected]@QAEXXZ K _crt_debugger_hook
_invoke_watson ? _controlfp_s ¸ FreeLibrary µ GetProcAddress À LoadLibraryA ~ GetModuleHandleA SetLastError j GetLastError GetTickCount ± GetPrivateProfileStringA Ï CreateFileMappingA Ž CloseHandle _ Sleep # GetCurrentProcess | GetModuleFileNameA » FreeResource UpdateResourceA ^ SizeofResource Ø LockResource Æ LoadResource ¡ FindResourceA Q EnumResourceNamesA > EndUpdateResourceA U EnumResourceTypesA n BeginUpdateResourceA " GetVersionExA ö WritePrivateProfileStringA DeleteFileA k GetLocalTime _lclose ñ WriteFile ý OpenFile X ReadFile n InterlockedExchange k InterlockedCompareExchange Ö GetStartupInfoA o TerminateProcess UnhandledExceptionFilter P SetUnhandledExceptionFilter ƒ IsDebuggerPresent < QueryPerformanceCounter ( GetCurrentThreadId $ GetCurrentProcessId ô GetSystemTimeAsFileTime *KERNEL32.dll* l PostMessageA IsWindowVisible å EnableWindow IsRectEmpty [ OffsetRect & GetClientRect 5 GetDC ¢ ReleaseDC ¦ GetSysColor W CopyRect FillRect Ô DrawTextA ´ SendMessageA Ê GetWindowRect ‚ RedrawWindow ý SetTimer KillTimer ½ SetCapture z GetParent 4 GetCursorPos ¡ ReleaseCapture ª DestroyIcon # LoadImageA Ò SetForegroundWindow BroadcastSystemMessageA FindWindowA Ÿ RegisterWindowMessageA 8 GetDesktopWindow D MessageBoxA t GetMonitorInfoA * SystemParametersInfoA N MonitorFromPoint GetAsyncKeyState ³ GetUpdateRect LoadCursorA ¥ GetSubMenu

Then.... much later on.
GetCommandLineA t GetVersion } ExitProcess ž TerminateProcess ÷ GetCurrentProcess ú GetCurrentThreadId ¥ TlsSetValue ¢ TlsAlloc £ TlsFree ¤ TlsGetValue m SetHandleCount R GetStdHandle GetFileType P GetStartupInfoA U DeleteCriticalSection $ GetModuleFileNameA ² FreeEnvironmentStringsA ³ FreeEnvironmentStringsW Ò WideCharToMultiByte GetEnvironmentStrings GetEnvironmentStringsW HeapDestroy › HeapCreate ¿ VirtualFree Ÿ HeapFree ß WriteFile ª InitializeCriticalSection f EnterCriticalSection Á LeaveCriticalSection ™ HeapAlloc ¿ GetCPInfo ¹ GetACP 1 GetOEMCP » VirtualAlloc ¢ HeapReAlloc > GetProcAddress Â LoadLibraryA ä MultiByteToWideChar ¿ LCMapStringA À LCMapStringW S GetStringTypeA V GetStringTypeW / RtlUnwind *KERNEL32.dll*



There are serious differences in the amount of code and the STEAMAPI only appears in the first group.

I have no doubt that RivaTuner was their model/inspiration. However, I see no direct evidence at this time of identical copy and paste nor plagiarism by obfuscation.

*Disclaimer:
Keep in mind, this is not nearly definitive. I am not even good at what I do.
We are talking about approximately 218,000 "words" to go through and I may have erred.
Source code is the only way to know for sure.*

I think it's enough to ask EVGA and Unwinder to get together and release a statement. Guru3d is really firing this up.

One Definitive Conclusion Can Be Made:
*You would have to copy RivaTuner's code over 10x times to match EVGA Precision, so at the very least, EVGA wrote most of their code even if they outright copied RivaTuner.*



Spoiler: First Contact



This happened to Jodi Foster in First Contact. They discredited her due to her video being all scrambled and not having any evidence.

The odd thing being, she recorded 18 hours of it in the span of a moment.

I think something similar kind of applies here. If they were willing to do 90% of the work, why cheat the last 10%?

The evidence, or lack there of, seems offset by the fact there is so much code.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TFL Replica*
> 
> Threatening to boycott EVGA's entire lineup of products over an issue with PrecisionX doesn't sound very mature.


Because wasting hundreds in gaming gear is sooo mature.


----------



## Vowels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtbiker033*
> 
> LOL
> 
> http://steamcommunity.com/app/268850/discussions/0/41973820581398948/


Oh man, there actually is an achievement page for PrecisionX 15.

http://steamcommunity.com/stats/268850/achievements

This one in particular is just asking for the average uninformed user to screw up their system
Quote:


> UNBELIEVABLE
> Reach 2000MHz or higher GPU clock


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## VSG

RagingCain, thanks for that, +1

Ya, it seems the only winner out of this is Guru3D to be honest


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## LancerVI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aparition*
> 
> That seems kinda harsh no? EVGA did hire Unwinder to code Precision but the planning and development probably all did take place under EVGA's roof. Development can be a high level project document, doesn't necessarily mean hand written code.
> 
> To me this is just a dispute of contract which happens all the time and is basically normal business. There is a lot of sensationalism in this thread. You have to also take into account that Precision has been very stagnant for a long time, it was only a matter of time before EVGA moved full development to 'in house'.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stealth Pyros*
> 
> Nothing is "clear." Everyone needs to quit spewing this crap. Unless you have sincerely looked at the source code of both, you don't know squat.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LancerVI*
> 
> Well I don't have your expertise, so maybe I spoke out of turn. I will defer to your knowledge of the subject.


A little late to the party no? So you're kind of piling on now.

I already admitted as much, so leave it at that. There is no need to say more, as I've already said I 'spoke out of turn.' So please, stop running your jib about the 'squat' I don't know about.


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## RagingCain

It's all good, I have updated my post to make my findings a little bit clearer.

I want to re-emphasize all it does is point out the things I can find in the garbage dump of both programs, specifically *BUILD 5.0.0.0.17*

I have nothing against Unwinder, but I am leaning towards EVGA having written a significant portion of the code, if not all of it.


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## VSG

lol I liked the First Contact analogy









As you said, you would need the source code to be sure that any plagiarism has occured and it has been verified multiple times that neither EVGA nor MSI have it. But it doesn't matter though, Guru3D has gotten a ton of views from this.


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## Joephis19

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vengeance47*
> 
> Gotta love this. If this was EA or MS being accused of stealing code people would be all over them hating on them. But because its about the almighty EVGA, the hate seems almost non-existent


But......almost everything EA and MS do is bad.

This is only the 2nd thing I've known that EVGA has done poorly, and their just isnt enough info yet on this situation to blame it on EVGA yet.

For me, EVGA has EARNED the benefit of the doubt at this point.


----------



## nepas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtbiker033*
> 
> LOL
> 
> http://steamcommunity.com/app/268850/discussions/0/41973820581398948/


Quote:


> The only 2GHz overclock that I'm aware of required the user to *solder a total of 16GB of additional VRAM onto the PCB* of his card to account for memory clock limitations


LOL wat?


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## GoldenTiger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AndroidVageta*
> 
> LOL! You people are a joke now...come on.
> 
> Because they MAY have stolen some code or whatever people here are going all "forget you EVGA! Now I'm going to go drive my car that uses gas made by corporations that have severely polluted the environment and has killed untold number of animals!"
> 
> It's so hypocritical.


More bleeding-heart political tripe like posted in other threads. And LOL @ "has killed animals", you do realize in nature animals eat and kill animals, right? Are you going to go whine about lions eating giraffes? I mean, that never happens in nature! NEVER! Right......? Bueller????


----------



## GoldenTiger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Joephis19*
> 
> But......almost everything EA and MS do is bad.
> 
> This is only the 2nd thing I've known that EVGA has done poorly, and their just isnt enough info yet on this situation to blame it on EVGA yet.
> 
> For me, EVGA has EARNED the benefit of the doubt at this point.


Lord Valve and Archbishop Gabe can do no wrong, either... EA of course is hellfire and damnation immediately on forums. :lol:


----------



## bavarianblessed

OT: This guy in the steam forums is spouting some of the most absurd stuff I've ever read!
Quote:


> *Temperature at that speed is barely even an important factor anymore, stability is. Something will go wrong far before it heats to a ridiculous level. These cards are pretty carefully timed. A clock rate of 2GHz isn't going to be possible without also significantly upping the memory bus, and the 700-series cards are pushing it already in terms of what the GDDR5 specification can do. And honestly, it's a pretty silly concept anyway, you're not actually getting better performance if you've maxed out a bus, the cached backlog will cripple your GPU, HDD transfer, and even system RAM.
> 
> The only 2GHz overclock that I'm aware of required the user to solder a total of 16GB of additional VRAM onto the PCB of his card to account for memory clock limitations, in addition to using an LN2 system. Very, very few people are going to care enough to do this. I certainly don't, and I tweak my system an embarrassing amount.*
> 
> I should help everyone who happens upon this, honestly, since this thread is getting some posts.
> 
> The average user never has to overclock. Getting a real benefit from it requires a solid background in the relationship between your GPU's core clock and memory bandwidth, as well as caching behavior between the two.
> 
> But let's say you're really stoked on overclocking because you want that couple frames extra per second. Please, everyone new to overclocking who finds this post, promise me you'll do two things.
> 
> 1) Practice on cards that didn't cost you $300 or more first. An old gpu is fine. Overclocking effectively is a skill that takes practice and research.
> 
> 2) NEVER EVER EVER EVER modify your card's firmware. If you're going to overclock, use software. Modifying the firmware, I can almost guarantee, will void your warranty


On topic: Thanks to RagingCain for the rough breakdown. Sounds like Unwinder is crying wolf


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## bvsbutthd101

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Daffron*
> 
> This is annoying me also. I'm in game but Steam says I'm currently in Precision X, which means nobody will invite me to their party :'( Only annoyance so far, the rest of the program seems greatly improved.


In the mean time I'm going back to the old version. It's stupid that this new version has anything to do with steam when you download it from EVGA's site. If I wanted people to know that I'm using Precision in steam I would of downloaded it through steam.


----------



## wstanci3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bavarianblessed*
> 
> OT: This guy in the steam forums is spouting some of the most absurd stuff I've ever read!
> On topic: Thanks to *RagingCain* for the rough breakdown. Sounds like Unwinder is *crying wolf*


Oh, don't think I didn't see what you did thar.


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## RagingCain

Because I don't want to look like I am favoring EVGA, just producing facts, I just went and ran the Hook DLLs through a disassemble and did find some odd function names in both DLLs, but please read my full analysis before running around like headless chickens.

Precision Hook: http://www.onlinedisassembler.com/odaweb/TtHsoO#
RTTS Hooks: http://www.onlinedisassembler.com/odaweb/p64Zip/0
(They take a minute to load, be patient.)

Again, there are a few functions that have identical names and naming conventions. *You can see for yourself by clicking the letter A.*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PRECISION*
> 0x00171fec KERNEL32.dll
> 0x00171ffc *FindWindowW*
> 0x0017200a ShowWindow
> 0x00172018 SetForegroundWindow
> 0x0017202e GetDesktopWindow
> 0x00172042 PostMessageW
> 0x00172052 LoadIconW
> 0x0017205e GetSystemMenu
> 0x0017206e AppendMenuW
> 0x0017207c SendMessageW
> 0x0017208c LoadMenuW


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RTSS*
> 0x0004c068 KERNEL32.dll
> 0x0004c078 *FindWindowA*
> 0x0004c086 GetClientRect
> 0x0004c096 GetActiveWindow
> 0x0004c0a8 CreateWindowExA
> 0x0004c0ba RegisterClassA
> 0x0004c0cc LoadCursorA
> 0x0004c0da DestroyWindow
> 0x0004c0ea UnhookWindowsHookEx
> 0x0004c100 PostMessageA
> 0x0004c110 CallNextHookEx
> 0x0004c122 SetWindowsHookExA
> 0x0004c136 RegisterWindowMessageA


It is odd in that As correspond to where Ws are. Possibly examples of plagiarism, however, even if it was, we are talking a low percentage.

That being said this same pattern were in the .exes. The Ws correspond to Precision.exe and As correspond to RTSS.exe The other full name rewordings/changes, to me, also indicate function changes. For example above: Rather than using the GetActiveWindow, a function is called to SetForegroundWindow and SetDesktopWindow and possibly that is used to figure out where to inject OSD.

Similar functioning code, but it appears, *APPEARS*, that another developer approached the same problem with a different solution.

That is just my take on it. GetActiveWindow appears twice in different sections of Precision's hook though, but this SetForeground/SetDesktop are not in RTSS's dll. There are a few instances of this.

*Let's get back on this and A and W business.* EVGA are using a lot of function calls ending in W and RTSS has the same function names ending in A. Now it did seem odd to me, but they worked together on development. It could appear that some function names were purposely changed.

That being said there are a few cases where there is a W method and no corresponding A.
AppendMessageW
SendMessageW

As well of several dozen functions that are mutually exclusive to one another's DLL. This level of replication I think could be attributed to possibly plagiarism or cooperation. Unwinder did work with EVGA for their code, it is only natural, someone at EVGA also worked on it too. Hence the "with" part. This definitely though, does not look like a cut paste job from disassembly.

Other Things of Note:
In this instance, Precision's Hook file is significantly smaller. I am assuming that is do with video capturing being non-existent at the moment?
We will never know for sure unless of course we get the source.
Furthermore, I would like to see the agreement between EVGA and Undwinder that was established. I do contract programming work and in some cases, if I agree to it, no matter if it's a past project or not, I release all rights to said code.

EVGA isn't charging for Precision, so keep that in mind. What exactly is EVGA greedy about? They wanted to stop paying Unwinder and do it themselves (according to EVGA.) That isn't so bad in itself and I would do it too if I had the resources to make it so.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wstanci3*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *bavarianblessed*
> 
> OT: This guy in the steam forums is spouting some of the most absurd stuff I've ever read!
> On topic: Thanks to *RagingCain* for the rough breakdown. Sounds like Unwinder is *crying wolf*
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, don't think I didn't see what you did thar.
Click to expand...

Did somebody mention WOLF







<3


----------



## sticks435

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nepas*
> 
> LOL wat?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bavarianblessed*
> 
> OT: This guy in the steam forums is spouting some of the most absurd stuff I've ever read!
> On topic: Thanks to RagingCain for the rough breakdown. Sounds like Unwinder is crying wolf


Yeah, that guy on Steam forums just posted and backtracked about the 16GB of vram and is now stating that Vince used "shared ram" at 2400mhz lol.


----------



## szeged

i wouldnt take anyone on steam seriously about overclocking ever.


----------



## DrFPS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> It's all good, I have updated my post to make my findings a little bit clearer.
> 
> I want to re-emphasize all it does is point out the things I can find in the garbage dump of both programs, specifically *BUILD 5.0.0.0.17*
> 
> I have nothing against Unwinder, but I am leaning towards EVGA having written a significant portion of the code, if not all of it.


That's good to know. Thank you for the work in this matter! +1


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> *snip*


In reading what Unwinder has said and has "proven", I don't think it's up for debate that EVGA has built upon the original...They clearly have -- Personally, in reading everything on GURU3D the debate/issue is that EVGA had no right to copy Afterburner in the first place because it was never their intellectual property, period.

The EULA was/is clearly a copy/paste as are many of the other functions.

In my opinion -- Unwinder is rather upset at how much EVGA blatantly copied without even blinking an eye.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> *snip*
> 
> 
> 
> In reading what Unwinder has said and has "proven", I don't think it's up for debate that EVGA has built upon the original...They clearly have -- Personally, in reading everything on GURU3D the debate/issue is that EVGA had no right to copy Afterburner in the first place because it was never their intellectual property, period.
> 
> The EULA was/is clearly a copy/paste as are many of the other functions.
> 
> In my opinion -- Unwinder is rather upset at how much EVGA blatantly copied without even blinking an eye.
Click to expand...

According to EVGA's site, the EULA has been fixed. They have obviously used / re-used code from their Precision products and probably have a firm understanding how RivaTuner interfaces with hardware. EULA probably slipped the dev's mind, I know I wouldn't be worried about the EULA and probably forgot to update it.

As far as copy and paste goes from Riva to Precision, the evidence just isn't there in the decompile or the disassembly. A couple of duplicate function names, and some function renaming, but even without my dev experience, there are significant differences.

You all can choose to believe what you want, but you can't change facts.

You can also add to the fact that this Precision has maybe 1/3 the features and users are reporting bugs left and right on the forums. Highly indicative of new software.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> According to EVGA's site, the EULA has been fixed. They have obviously used / re-used code from their Precision products and probably have a firm understanding how RivaTuner interfaces with hardware. EULA probably slipped the dev's mind, I know I wouldn't be worried about the EULA and probably forgot to update it.
> 
> As far as copy and paste goes from Riva to Precision, the evidence just isn't there in the decompile or the disassembly. A couple of duplicate function names, and some function renaming, but even without my dev experience, there are significant differences.
> 
> You all can choose to believe what you want, but you can't change facts.
> 
> You can also add to the fact that this Precision has maybe 1/3 the features and users are reporting bugs left and right on the forums. Highly indicative of new software.


I'm not disagreeing with what you've found but, this was his last comment which, Sugar posted earlier.
Quote:


> The agreement defines the following intellectual property ownership terms: software product which I develop remains my copyrighted property, but during the contract the company receives exclusive distribution rights on it. Besides exclusive software distribution rights the company exclusively owns all the rest intellectual property, which is not directly related to software and which I could create during the contract: i.e. product name, product logos, artwork. That's all. There are absolutely no ways to fit any form of previous software copy-pasting into the licensing model.
> 
> Second, I just decided to peek inside "in-house" application EXE. I'd better avoid doing so: even my original EXE string table is inside new executable as is. Including all the messages of original application, including all the messages of my proprietary USF skin compiler / decompiler built into original RivaTuner skinning engine, even including the references to original RivaTuner core libraries (RTTSH.dll). Even including the messages related to RivaTuner's G15 LCD output module, which the company probably also tried to clone but couldn't get working yet. Really, EVGA?
> 
> Dear company PRs, take a fair advice and simply stop giving any public comments with fake excuses. I'm not going to start a legal action against the company, I'm not asking for ANY compensation. I just want to let my users know the truth, protect my software, my ideas and technologies and then forget our past partnership. Just keep your lips sealed and let this story die istelf. Do not beat the dead horse.


Those were actually failed features on Precision that at the time, failed on Rivatuner.

I'm simply a non-programmer looking back at the versions of precision on EVGA and you can practically mirror each update within 1 or 2 features. (Rivatuner's updates)

Which, is easily reverse-engineered until you bunk it and in my personal opinion, EVGA has done that quite a bit but, once again, update to update you can practically mirror 2/3 features of every launch.

I think Unwinder is difficult...He's a choice word I can't say here but, I'm also not a programmer. So, all I have is Unwinding Vs. EVGA.

EVGA talks in circles, per the usual, verifying nothing...Again, 100% per the usual...And then we have Unwinder, providing more and more evidence each post...Evidence that actually makes sense.

If I take your algorithm and re-write it my way, it's still your intellectual property. - IMO, that's what EVGA did and then tried to build on it...Ultimately, you're right though, it's in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with what you've found but, this was his last comment which, Sugar posted earlier.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> The agreement defines the following intellectual property ownership terms: software product which I develop remains my copyrighted property, but during the contract the company receives exclusive distribution rights on it. Besides exclusive software distribution rights the company exclusively owns all the rest intellectual property, which is not directly related to software and which I could create during the contract: i.e. product name, product logos, artwork. That's all. There are absolutely no ways to fit any form of previous software copy-pasting into the licensing model.
> 
> Second, I just decided to peek inside "in-house" application EXE. I'd better avoid doing so: even my original EXE string table is inside new executable as is. Including all the messages of original application, including all the messages of my proprietary USF skin compiler / decompiler built into original RivaTuner skinning engine, even including the references to original RivaTuner core libraries (RTTSH.dll). Even including the messages related to RivaTuner's G15 LCD output module, which the company probably also tried to clone but couldn't get working yet. Really, EVGA?
> 
> Dear company PRs, take a fair advice and simply stop giving any public comments with fake excuses. I'm not going to start a legal action against the company, I'm not asking for ANY compensation. I just want to let my users know the truth, protect my software, my ideas and technologies and then forget our past partnership. Just keep your lips sealed and let this story die istelf. Do not beat the dead horse.
> 
> 
> 
> Those were actually failed features on Precision that at the time, failed on Rivatuner.
> 
> I'm simply a non-programmer looking back at the versions of precision on EVGA and you can practically mirror each update within 1 or 2 features. (Rivatuner's updates)
> 
> Which, is easily reverse-engineered until you bunk it and in my personal opinion, EVGA has done that quite a bit but, once again, update to update you can practically mirror 2/3 features of every launch.
> 
> I think Unwinder is difficult...He's a choice word I can't say here but, I'm also not a programmer. So, all I have is Unwinding Vs. EVGA.
> 
> EVGA talks in circles, per the usual, verifying nothing...Again, 100% per the usual...And then we have Unwinder, providing more and more evidence each post...Evidence that actually makes sense.
> 
> If I take your algorithm and re-write it my way, it's still your intellectual property. - IMO, that's what EVGA did and then tried to build on it...Ultimately, you're right though, it's in the eye of the beholder.
Click to expand...

See that is the beauty of code. You CAN take my algorithm and re-write it completely. Take my WOLF program, sure it's lame, but if I see a program that does something cool, then I replicate that same idea on my own or from a template/prototype, that is perfectly legit. Anybody can do that.

Nobody can patent it, thank Allah.

Regarding EVGA and their announcements, it's EVGA. A company that just happens to have a large following in our circle. You can't trust PR not to be spinned. Ever. Which is why I just took the basic facts of the situation and analyzed them independently.

Did EVGA replicate RivaTuner\Afterburner functionality. Absolutely. Does that prove they copied the code? No.

All these major programs have been based off of RivaTuner. When RTSS updates with a new feature, Afterburner/Trixx/GPUTweak/Precision all follow suit.


----------



## RagingCain

A double post felt warranted.

Straight from Unwinder:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Unwinder, GURU3D.COM*
> They are not lying in this aspect. Neither EVGA nor MSI have access to the source code.


Source: http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4875214&postcount=156


----------



## mcg75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> A double post felt warranted.
> 
> Straight from Unwinder:
> Source: http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4875214&postcount=156


Yeah, I saw that earlier today while the tantrums where being thrown at EVGA here.

Based on what you've revealed to us Cain, I agree with you.

The new Precision has a look and feel very similar to Afterburner because the previous Precision-X was such a close kin to Afterburner.

But it's a new program that was built to feel like Precision-X complete with all the new bugs a new program brings to the table.


----------



## tpi2007

EVGA's official reply is mostly devoid of legalese making it hard to assess what they actually licensed in the first place. They start by making a vague reference to their relationship with Unwinder, not stating what it was.

Did they sign a license agreement or was this just an informal cooperation agreement with no other obligations than to respect each other's property with no money involved ?

If there was a formal agreement, what was in it ? The use of RivaTuner as it was at the moment of signing ? Were any feature updates put into the agreement, or was it just bug fixes and support for new cards ?

I understand that EVGA didn't want to be left behind compared to MSI, but if MSI was / is paying Unwinder for the extra features and EVGA just paid for the basics in an otherwise informal relationship, then yes, going independent is the only way to go if Unwinder doesn't want to sign an agreement to include that, but on the other hand it would be helpful if EVGA could further explain this:

Quote:


> You probably don't know that some of those ideas were initiated and requested to Alex/Unwinder by EVGA to implement into Precision well before it was available in Afterburner, but Alex/Unwinder had no intention to add it. One year later they showed up in Afterburner exclusively without any notification and/or offer to EVGA. We felt that we became Alex/Unwinder and Afterburner's free consultant if we continue this route.


Under what terms was that request made ? Was it a commercial proposition or they just asked for free ? There is practically no legalese in EVGA's official reply that can 100% clarify this, starting with the first sentence as I said.

In any case, if this part
Quote:


> some of those ideas were initiated and requested to Alex/Unwinder by EVGA to implement into Precision well before it was available in Afterburner


can't be substantiated, it's just another case of he said / she said. In any case, when it comes to 64-bit support, it's an obvious feature, so it's dubious that EVGA should be taking moral credit for having thought of it first and presenting itself as a free consultant when that feature would have had to be implemented sooner or later. I don't know what they mean when they refer to voltage control, since they mention above that voltage tuning was coded by EVGA even before Precision 15.

There is some inefficient communication in all this.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtbiker033*
> 
> LOL
> 
> http://steamcommunity.com/app/268850/discussions/0/41973820581398948/


I have a feeling that actively encouraging overclocking by way of achievements (which is a very mainstream thing) may backfire. After all, overclocking usually voids the warranty. AMD's Overdrive has a disclaimer before you enable it, does Precision have the same thing ?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> It's all good, I have updated my post to make my findings a little bit clearer.
> 
> I want to re-emphasize all it does is point out the things I can find in the garbage dump of both programs, specifically *BUILD 5.0.0.0.17*
> 
> I have nothing against Unwinder, but I am leaning towards EVGA having written a significant portion of the code, if not all of it.


But as you said, they changed the EULA for that specific build, so wouldn't it be plausible that they changed some code references too ? Maybe someone who downloaded the previous version of the software can send it to you for analysis. Of course, the code has new features added, like the Steam achievements, so any discussion will have to take that into account.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tpi2007*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> It's all good, I have updated my post to make my findings a little bit clearer.
> 
> I want to re-emphasize all it does is point out the things I can find in the garbage dump of both programs, specifically *BUILD 5.0.0.0.17*
> 
> I have nothing against Unwinder, but I am leaning towards EVGA having written a significant portion of the code, if not all of it.
> 
> 
> 
> But as you said, they changed the EULA for that specific build, so wouldn't it be plausible that they changed some code references too ? Maybe someone who downloaded the previous version of the software can send it to you for analysis. Of course, the code has new features added, like the Steam achievements, so any discussion will have to take that into account.
Click to expand...

It is exactly possible, which is why I do state which build I analyzed.

To be fair though, it doesn't address my other problems, one, they weren't given the source code. Two: Precision is massively larger in terms of code than RTSS.

Not to mention there has been no loss of functionality, so if the code was removed, or rewritten, the problem is solved and EVGA should acknowledge that and or apologize.

This a huge reason why we study Ethics and the Philosophy Ethics during Comp Science. Even if it was a lazy dev doing this, EVGA takes the full blame, under the guise that it's telling the truth. A project manager can't read code. Only devs, and MAYBE the devs superviser, can read code. Maybe.

Regarding the UI, it was definitely cloned on purpose. No matter how many screenshots of Guru3D do side by side, without the source code, they would have had to rebuild it from scratch.


----------



## cowie

oh well you got it 100%


----------



## fateswarm

Something that bugs me. The news title is in the form of a question. Either report news or don't.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> But I like their PSUs


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lombardsoup*
> 
> ...had to cringe


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *szeged*
> 
> The evga psus are good, I have to cringe at people who are stuck in the past....


i giggled


----------



## Allanitomwesh

W's matching A's eh?
Sounds to me like they played with code to make it look different. Like that essay your buddy wrote but you tweak it so the teacher won't notice....


----------



## Apolladan

If they're gonna steal code, might as well go the whole way next time so that the release isn't laughably buggy.


----------



## BlackVenom

Damn pirates.


----------



## TFL Replica

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Something that bugs me. The news title is in the form of a question. Either report news or don't.


Well, technically, this never was news in the first place (it's a rumor at best). The uncertainty in the title merely matches the uncertainty of the allegations.The burden of proof lies with the accuser, and so far, he has failed to provide adequate evidence to support his claims.


----------



## hollowtek

so basically he's just trying to say that EVGA shouldn't take credit for stuff they didn't actually do. And that give credit where credit is due, which is to unwinder (because we obviously know who made it, him, not evga).


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> In reading what Unwinder has said and has "proven", I don't think it's up for debate that EVGA has built upon the original...They clearly have -- Personally, in reading everything on GURU3D the debate/issue is that EVGA had no right to copy Afterburner in the first place because it was never their intellectual property, period.
> 
> The EULA was/is clearly a copy/paste as are many of the other functions.
> 
> In my opinion -- Unwinder is rather upset at how much EVGA blatantly copied without even blinking an eye.


Did you not read the part where EVGA was paying Unwinder royalties up until Dec 2013? They've licensed Rivatuner for years and from what I understand, actually had rights to it in 2008, several months before MSI even released AB...


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> In reading what Unwinder has said and has "proven", I don't think it's up for debate that EVGA has built upon the original...They clearly have -- Personally, in reading everything on GURU3D the debate/issue is that EVGA had no right to copy Afterburner in the first place because it was never their intellectual property, period.
> 
> The EULA was/is clearly a copy/paste as are many of the other functions.
> 
> In my opinion -- Unwinder is rather upset at how much EVGA blatantly copied without even blinking an eye.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you not read the part where EVGA was paying Unwinder royalties up until Dec 2013? They've licensed Rivatuner for years and from what I understand, actually had rights to it in 2008, several months before MSI even released AB...
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm sorry...did I miss where EVGA specified exactly what those royalties were for? Oh wait, I didn't and it's really none of our business.

At the end of the day you have GUI that was copied 100%. Features that were copied - it only makes sense that the rest was - you know, to ensure that any of it actually functioned?

I agree with ragin to some extent but, Unwinder has enough proof (considering he is the author) that he claims it's a direct copy so, either you believe him or you don't.

Personally, I believe him. To each their own.


----------



## dave12

Dunno if this is off topic but what is fundamentally different between afterburner and precision from an end user perspective?


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry...did I miss where EVGA specified exactly what those royalties were for? Oh wait, I didn't and it's really none of our business.
> 
> At the end of the day you have GUI that was copied 100%. Features that were copied - it only makes sense that the rest was - you know, to ensure that any of it actually functioned?
> 
> I agree with ragin to some extent but, Unwinder has enough proof (considering he is the author) that he claims it's a direct copy so, either you believe him or you don't.
> 
> Personally, I believe him. To each their own.


I'm pretty sure it was stated that The Precision GUI was designed by EVGA all along:
Quote:


> The GUI looks similar, well it should since the original GUI was 100% designed by EVGA, many other elements were too like voltage control, Bluetooth and more.


I mean, are you accusing EVGA of flat out lying in their official statement?


----------



## Krahe

well i can tell which users are sponsored by EVGA if nothing else.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry...did I miss where EVGA specified exactly what those royalties were for? Oh wait, I didn't and it's really none of our business.
> 
> At the end of the day you have GUI that was copied 100%. Features that were copied - it only makes sense that the rest was - you know, to ensure that any of it actually functioned?
> 
> I agree with ragin to some extent but, Unwinder has enough proof (considering he is the author) that he claims it's a direct copy so, either you believe him or you don't.
> 
> Personally, I believe him. To each their own.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure it was stated that The Precision GUI was designed by EVGA all along:
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> The GUI looks similar, well it should since the original GUI was 100% designed by EVGA, many other elements were too like voltage control, Bluetooth and more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I mean, are you accusing EVGA of flat out lying in their official statement?
Click to expand...

Wouldn't be the first time. Lol. X79 anyone? Z77? P67? -- all situations where EVGA/Jacob had actually pretty blatantly lied to their customer base.

Go read Guru3D's thread in which Unwinder actually discusses the coding + original GUI - it's undisputed (except clearly by you) that it was a direct copy - in fact evga even copy and pasted the entire Eula word for word.

At this point, it's up to where you ethically stand.

In my opinion, EVGA crossed the line and took another individuals IP...You're free to disagree...but, the debate isn't if it's a direct copy or not, there's enough evidence there to say it was - the debate is if it was done so with any form of consent - it wasn't. The author of the program says it wasn't.

It would help Majin, if you'd catch up and educate yourself on the actual backstory before leaping to EVGA's defense in an effort to 'knock me down' - just sayin.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

No, I mean, that's fine. Its your opinion. I'm just pretty sure that their are no innocent little victims in this ordeal and I'll just leave it at that...


----------



## MagicBox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *anubis1127*
> 
> Nice, seems the RivaTuner Wiki was updated recently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RivaTuner


Wrong quote, was directed at Raging Cain.

Seriously are you comparing hex dumps? Just open the exes in a resource manager and get direct access to all the string and image resources. I sure as hell would recognize my own work, knowing what code went into my executables. But there's more to it. Not just the control IDs matched, but also his resource strings, all the application messages etc. what not more. This stuff is easy to compare. Just don't do a byte-for-byte hex-compare.

The way I see it: EVGA took the source, butchered it up to un-unwinder-fy it, EVGAyfying it and passed it off as their own. In my career working for multiple comanies in the same field even I discovered some components that I made for company A but ended up in company B's hands, modified slightly, but ever so the same. I worked for company B at a later time that had some exworkers from company A as well. Now I didn't go out to sue, I found it merely funny.

Then there is the codebase plagiarism the owner of Medievia executed. He took a Diku MUD code base, modified some files cosmetically and passed it off as his own. Google "Medievia code theft" and you'll see that this is much akin to this EVGA deal. A party with interests that wants to keep code and conveniently claims it as their own after having modified minor stuff to try to make it look different.

MSI cards it will be for me, with this nice fully functional Afterburner. There


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Didn't Unwinder himself admit that neither company has ever had access to the source code?


----------



## TFL Replica

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Didn't Unwinder himself admit that neither company has ever had access to the source code?


Yup: http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4875214&postcount=156


----------



## LuminatX

I felt the new precision X15 was actually a downgrade :/


----------



## damric

Time for Unwinder to activate the hidden remote destruction code.


----------



## eBombzor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LuminatX*
> 
> I felt the new precision X15 was actually a downgrade :/


Same. X15 is a buggy and slow mess. It almost fried my $700 GPU by not following my set fan curve.

I honestly do not like Precision in general. Too bad Afterburner doesn't work properly with 780 Ti's.


----------



## Luciferxy

AB's working just fine with my card, only the voltage slider that is not.


----------



## famich

A very interesting reading, really. Being not an experienced programmer, I am relying on those of you, who are...

Personally I do favor the Unwinder s stance, though . It is interesting, how some of you are defending the EVGA company .

One more point : we will most probably never see the text of all arrangements between EVGA /MSI /Unwinder, so this issue might remain unresolved.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *famich*
> 
> A very interesting reading, really. Being not an experienced programmer, I am relying on those of you, who are...
> 
> Personally I do favor the Unwinder s stance, though . It is interesting, how some of you are defending the EVGA company .
> 
> One more point : we will most probably never see the text of all arrangements between EVGA /MSI /Unwinder, so this issue might remain unresolved.


if there was something done wrong, people must be held accountable, if not, it's just more gossip on the internet with rumors and opinions
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TFL Replica*
> 
> Well, technically, this never was news in the first place (it's a rumor at best). The uncertainty in the title merely matches the uncertainty of the allegations.The burden of proof lies with the accuser, and so far, he has failed to provide adequate evidence to support his claims.


pretty good way to sum everything up. if his work, outside of contracted terms, was violated/stolen, I am most certain a lawyer would easily handle this situation.


----------



## misoonigiri

Unwinder provided some guidance on RagingCain's analysis, http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?p=4875940#post4875940


----------



## error-id10t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *famich*
> 
> A very interesting reading, really. Being not an experienced programmer, I am relying on those of you, who are...
> 
> Personally I do favor the Unwinder s stance, though . It is interesting, how some of you are defending the EVGA company .
> 
> One more point : we will most probably never see the text of all arrangements between EVGA /MSI /Unwinder, so this issue might remain unresolved.


Problem is that nobody is or rather hasn't publically said they are and can prove it one way or another, and as mentioned nobody has the source code.

Me personally, don't like the guys attitude one bit and I don't like Guru. But I also don't like hanging at EVGA as both sites are effectively fanboy heavens. For me, this is the middle ground where some sanity is kept and I hope it remains that way.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *misoonigiri*
> 
> Unwinder provided some guidance on RagingCain's analysis, http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?p=4875940#post4875940


Not surprised.

A single bit.

Expected actually.


----------



## TheReciever

I like how he says to let the subject die, then switch to LOL @ this guy for not knowing what he's talking about.


----------



## famich

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error-id10t*
> 
> Problem is that nobody is or rather hasn't publically said they are and can prove it one way or another, and as mentioned nobody has the source code.
> 
> Me personally, don't like the guys attitude one bit and I don't like Guru. But I also don't like hanging at EVGA as both sites are effectively fanboy heavens. For me, this is the middle ground where some sanity is kept and I hope it remains that way.


Hi, well said. Me too do not like the guy that much, been banned by him personally already. He s very arrogant and tends to attack people at random







But I think in this case he s got an edge.
But, hey, what si important : the "new "Precision is unusable at the moment, so ..


----------



## pterois

I have been using Precision X for a long time and I love it. When I installed 15 it almost fried my 780 Ti with the temp reaching 98C as it used my previous overclocking settings with 4.2.1. I went back to using the old one.


----------



## cowie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *famich*
> 
> A very interesting reading, really. *Being not an experienced programmer, I am relying on those of you, who are*...
> 
> Personally I do favor the Unwinder s stance, though . It is interesting, how some of you are defending the EVGA company .
> 
> One more point : we will most probably never see the text of all arrangements between EVGA /MSI /Unwinder, so this issue might remain unresolved.


seems like alot are taking the info posted here as someone who knows programing








If you think you have a rebute on what unwinder says you better double check...its false info 100%.
lets not have the "info" spread as fact since the 1 guy that did just look at it is well... unsure of what he is looking at.
If you ask me he posted on behalf of evga


----------



## benjamen50

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pterois*
> 
> I have been using Precision X for a long time and I love it. When I installed 15 it almost fried my 780 Ti with the temp reaching 98C as it used my previous overclocking settings with 4.2.1. I went back to using the old one.


This is probably because it has a 1.3V voltage control enabled with it. I heard, not sure if its true or not.


----------



## pterois

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benjamen50*
> 
> This is probably because it has a 1.3V voltage control enabled with it. I heard, not sure if its true or not.


It wasn't the voltage, the fan control wasn't working. For some reason it crashed, reinstalled and setup the fan curve and it works fine. The only issue I have with it now is enabling and disabling OSD is not as simple as with Riva Tuner.


----------



## famich

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cowie*
> 
> seems like alot are taking the info posted here as someone who knows programing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think you have a rebute on what unwinder says you better double check...its false info 100%.
> lets not have the "info" spread as fact since the 1 guy that did just look at it is well... unsure of what he is looking at.
> If you ask me he posted on behalf of evga


Could be true : I cannot tell if it is true or not . As I wrote I tend to be more on his side, although he is far from being a nice person. But if he s right, he is right. The other problem is taking a legal action from Ukraine to an american billion dollar company.

/Have you seen The Magnificen Seven : Calvera s remark : Only Americans can rob an american bank







/


----------



## Krahe

^oooh boy..are you in for it when they wake up!


----------



## Strat79

I'd say we will never know the whole story. There really needs to be a 3rd party with equal or greater knowledge than undwinder to back up or refute his claims.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cowie*
> 
> seems like alot are taking the info posted here as someone who knows programing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think you have a rebute on what unwinder says you better double check...its false info 100%.
> lets not have the "info" spread as fact since the 1 guy that did just look at it is well... unsure of what he is looking at.
> If you ask me he posted on behalf of evga


If this 1 guy your talking about is ragingcain he said mulitple times that he was staying neutral on this subject... At least he actually tried to do somthing for us and give some insite. instead of acting like all the know it alls on here. and all those guilty of bickering (my self included). give ragingcain some credit .


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> If this 1 guy your talking about is ragingcain he said mulitple times that he was staying neutral on this subject... At least he actually tried to do somthing for us and give some insite. instead of acting like all the know it alls on here. and all those guilty of bickering (my self included). give ragingcain some credit .


You don't try to perform a surgery if you're not a surgeon.

He didn't know what he was doing at all. This is the same as those moms against vaccines.


----------



## RagingCain

So I read Unwinder's post on how he gathered his data.

I went ahead and opened up Precision in a plain Binary Viewer, no attempt at disassembly or decompilation. I had assumed that was his modus operandi. I apologize for any mistakes I made trying to "duplicate" Unwinder's claims without instruction.

Now that I know what he did and instructions on what to look for: I searched "RivaTuner" in unicode on build 5.0.0.0.17.



PrecisionVsRTSS.PNG 266k .PNG file


*There is one instance in there of the term RivaTuner*: RivaTuner Hardware Monitoring Log File .HML. PrecisionX outputs HML files, I am assuming that is to maintain compatibility when viewing in RivaTuner. According to Unwinder, this is the RivaTuner string table section.

Also note the visual displays of Bytes Per Line:
PrecisionX


RTSS


That is a visual representation of the programs. This is what gave me an impression yesterday that the two programs were vastly different when going through the code. I am sure that seeing that it is an understandable conclusion, so I do apologize in not finding Unwinder's claims myself.

Things that I can confirm by Unwinder:
Precision has one reference to the term RivaTuner and that's when it creates RivaTuner Hardware Monitoring Log .HML.

Matching Localization Identifiers / StringTables inside PrecisionX:
Failed to load RTTSH.dll!\n\nPossible cause: Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 runtime libraries are not installed properly!
RTTSH.dll::%s failed with error code %d!
Failed to get RTTSH.dll::%s function pointer!

There are matching control IDs as well as several additional ones in PrecisionX.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MAP, PrecisionX*
> [MAP]
> 
> ; Properties \ General tab
> 
> ID_1010 = Properties\General\START_WITH_WINDOWS
> *ID_1019* = Properties\General\START_MINIMIZED
> ID_1110 = Properties\General\UPDATE_CHECKING_PERIOD
> ID_1109 = Properties\General\UPDATE_STATUS
> ID_1108 = Properties\General\CHECK_NOW
> ID_1160 = Properties\General\ENABLE_BRIDGE
> 
> ; Propetties \ Fan tab
> 
> ID_1113 = Properties\Fan\SW_AUTO_FAN_CONTROL
> ID_1122 = Properties\Fan\SW_FAN_SPEED_CURVE_EDITOR
> ID_1116 = Properties\Fan\SW_FAN_SPEED_UPDATE_PERIOD
> ID_1117 = Properties\Fan\SW_FAN_SPEED_UPDATE_PERIOD
> ID_1120 = Properties\Fan\TEMPERATURE_HYSTERESIS
> ID_1121 = Properties\Fan\TEMPERATURE_HYSTERESIS
> ID_1171 = Properties\Fan\FORCE_UPDATE
> 
> ; Properties \ Monitoring tab
> 
> ID_1015 = Properties\Monitoring\HARDWARE_POLLING_PERIOD
> ID_1016 = Properties\Monitoring\HARDWARE_POLLING_PERIOD
> ID_1076 = Properties\Monitoring\SOURCES_LIST
> ID_1125 = Properties\Monitoring\SHOW_IN_OSD
> ID_1077 = Properties\Monitoring\SHOW_IN_LCD
> ID_1074 = Properties\Monitoring\LCD_FONT_COMBO
> ID_1078 = Properties\Monitoring\SHOW_IN_TRAY
> ID_1039 = Properties\Monitoring\TRAY_ICON_COLOR_PREVIEW
> ID_1147 = Properties\Monitoring\MIN_LIMIT
> ID_1150 = Properties\Monitoring\MIN_LIMIT
> ID_1148 = Properties\Monitoring\MAX_LIMIT
> ID_1149 = Properties\Monitoring\MAX_LIMIT
> ID_1135 = Properties\Monitoring\ALARM_THRESHOLD
> ID_1136 = Properties\Monitoring\ALARM_THRESHOLD
> ID_1164 = Properties\Monitoring\ENABLE_LOG
> ID_1165 = Properties\Monitoring\LOG_PATH
> ID_1166 = Properties\Monitoring\BROWSE_LOG_PATH
> ID_1167 = Properties\Monitoring\LOG_LIMIT
> ID_1168 = Properties\Monitoring\LOG_LIMIT
> ID_1169 = Properties\Monitoring\LOG_LIMIT
> ID_1170 = Properties\Monitoring\RECREATE_LOG
> ID_1178 = Properties\Monitoring\OVERRIDE_GROUP_NAME
> ID_1179 = Properties\Monitoring\OVERRIDE_GROUP_NAME
> 
> ; Properties \ Screen capture tab
> 
> ID_1103 = Properties\Screen capture\SCREEN_CAPTURE_HOTKEY
> ID_1105 = Properties\Screen capture\SCREEN_CAPTURE_FORMAT
> ID_1106 = Properties\Screen capture\SCREEN_CAPTURE_FORMAT
> ID_1107 = Properties\Screen capture\SCREEN_CAPTURE_FORMAT
> ID_1132 = Properties\Screen capture\SCREEN_CAPTURE_QUALITY
> ID_1133 = Properties\Screen capture\SCREEN_CAPTURE_QUALITY
> ID_1127 = Properties\Screen capture\SCREEN_CAPTURE_FOLDER
> ID_1104 = Properties\Screen capture\VIEW_SCREEN_CAPTURE_FOLDER
> ID_1118 = Properties\Screen capture\BROWSE_SCREEN_CAPTURE_FOLDER
> 
> ; Properties \ OSD tab
> 
> ID_1101 = Properties\OSD\OSD_TOGGLE_HOTKEY
> ID_1098 = Properties\OSD\OSD_ON_HOTKEY
> ID_1099 = Properties\OSD\OSD_OFF_HOTKEY
> ID_1126 = Properties\OSD\SHOW_OSD_HEADER
> ID_1014 = Properties\OSD\SHOW_OSD_HEADER_TIME
> ID_1134 = Properties\OSD\CAPTURE_OSD
> ID_1129 = Properties\OSD\OSD_SERVER_BLOCK_HOTKEY
> ID_1100 = Properties\OSD\MORE_OSD
> 
> ; Properties \ Profiles tab
> 
> ID_1062 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE1_HOTKEY
> ID_1063 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE2_HOTKEY
> ID_1064 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE3_HOTKEY
> ID_1065 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE4_HOTKEY
> ID_1066 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE5_HOTKEY
> ID_1067 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE6_HOTKEY
> ID_1068 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE7_HOTKEY
> ID_1069 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE8_HOTKEY
> ID_1070 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE9_HOTKEY
> ID_1071 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILE0_HOTKEY
> ID_1124 = Properties\Profiles\PROFILES_SUBMENU
> ID_1094 = Properties\Profiles\2D_PROFILE_COMBO
> ID_1095 = Properties\Profiles\3D_PROFILE_COMBO
> 
> ; Properties \ User interface tab
> 
> ID_1038 = Properties\User interface\LANGUAGE_COMBO
> ID_1011 = Properties\User interface\SHOW_TOOLTIPS
> ID_1123 = Properties\User interface\SHOW_HINTS
> ID_1128 = Properties\User interface\SKIN_PREVIEW
> ID_1023 = Properties\User interface\SKINS_COMBO


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MAP, RTSS*
> [MAP]
> 
> ; Properties \ General tab
> 
> *ID_1019* = Properties\General\START_MINIMIZED
> ID_1129 = Properties\General\UPDATE_CHECKING_PERIOD
> ID_1130 = Properties\General\UPDATE_CHECKING_ALLOW_BETAS
> ID_1128 = Properties\General\UPDATE_STATUS
> ID_1127 = Properties\General\CHECK_NOW
> ID_1125 = Properties\General\ENABLE_FRAME_COLOR_INDICATOR
> ID_1126 = Properties\General\FRAME_COLOR_BARS_NUM
> ID_1132 = Properties\General\ENABLE_ENCODER_SERVER
> ID_1133 = Properties\General\ENCODER_SERVER_TYPE
> ID_1134 = Properties\General\ENABLE_64_BIT
> 
> ; Properties \ User interface tab
> 
> ID_1038 = Properties\User interface\LANGUAGE_COMBO
> ID_1011 = Properties\User interface\SHOW_TOOLTIPS
> ID_1109 = Properties\User interface\SKIN_PREVIEW
> ID_1023 = Properties\User interface\SKINS_COMBO


One thing that Unwinder doesn't really resolve (or clear up).
EVGA nor MSI have ever had source code, how could it be copied?

Like I mentioned yesterday when trying to analyze this... shtuff, it really is different. There is still a ton more program than in RTSS. I am anticipating that all functionality, except the HOOK, are baked into the executable.

Unwinder has established there are parts of PrecisionX he did not authorize to be there. Depending on his contract he might be completely valid, as nobody really knows the intricacies of the agreement between EVGA and Unwinder. However, I do believe Unwinder has a valid claim going off of what we know.

*EVGA has some explaining, but I want to point out, Unwinder himself has said they did not have source code.*

It is safe to absolutely say, even if it was just what we see above, EVGA have made a false claim of 100% in house code as some of it obviously exists in work Unwinder did.

I don't feel EVGA though is the evil monster everyone claim to be. I do believe a mistake was made. EVGA are not selling this program either, and their motivations are absolutely valid. I also feel that "functionality" of RTTS has not been copied, but any verbose copying is a programming sin.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

He was trying to do some investigating and said all along he wasnt a pro? and that it was his OPINION..Anyway My main reason is saying hes pro evga when he clearly stated he was trying to stay neutral.
edit: some of you guys need to lighten up and give credit were credit is do


----------



## Kimir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> *You don't try to perform a surgery if you're not a surgeon.*
> 
> He didn't know what he was doing at all. This is the same as those moms against vaccines.


Oh boy, what I've just read. That is a bad, if not the worst analogy you could have used.
A surgeon doesn't just become.

RaginCain may didn't knew what he was doing, but he certainly know more than the average here in software development, see his project [W.O.L.F.].

Seriously, throwing rocks at someone who's trying, where are we going.


----------



## VSG

Lol there is a new guy in the EVGA forums named "Cain Rage EVGA dog" or something like that and just insulting RagingCain all over the place now. This is getting out of hand for no reason.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> He was trying to do some investigating and said all along he wasnt a pro? and that it was his OPINION..Anyway My main reason is saying hes pro evga when he clearly stated he was trying to stay neutral.
> edit: some of you guys need to lighten up and give credit were credit is do


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kimir*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> *You don't try to perform a surgery if you're not a surgeon.*
> 
> He didn't know what he was doing at all. This is the same as those moms against vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh boy, what I've just read. That is a bad, if not the worst analogy you could have used.
> A surgeon doesn't just become.
> 
> RaginCain may didn't knew what he was doing, but he certainly know more than the average here in software development, see his project [W.O.L.F.].
> 
> Seriously, throwing rocks at someone who's trying, where are we going.
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Lol there is a new guy in the EVGA forums named "Cain Rage EVGA dog" or something like that and just insulting RagingCain all over the place now. This is getting out of hand for no reason.


Meh, don't sweat it.

I have done another analysis of Unwinders claims above. I think some of it has merit.

However, one thing that seems odd, Unwinder has stated EVGA never had source code... so how was it copied?


----------



## Krahe

Cain did his best to answer peoples questions, at no time did I read him say his conclusions were proof either way. And as somebody pointed out earlier, EVGA's quietness on the subject and Unwinders willingness to forget about it suggest the two have made a private compromise.


----------



## sugarhell

Reverse engineer and clone it


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Reverse engineer and clone it


Okay, this is one way of doing it, however, why? RE is not a simple operation, and the result is a semi-functioning free utility?
What's the motivation? Just screw over the RTTS creator? There is no money involved after the fact... infact it will cost time and money to do this.

...I suppose creative control is one motivator, if not a bizarre approach.

EVGA could have simply built their own tool from scratch easier than reverse engineering someone else's work.


----------



## fateswarm

I suspect some references you find in the binary code strings are from common code, possibly the windows API and libraries.

PS. Is visual representation of binary a good guide? I wonder if the output is completely different on another compiler.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Okay, this is one way of doing it, however, why? RE is not a simple operation, and the result is a semi-functioning free utility?
> What's the motivation? Just screw over the RTTS creator? There is no money involved after the fact... infact it will cost time and money to do this.
> 
> ...I suppose creative control is one motivator, if not a bizarre approach.
> 
> EVGA could have simply built their own tool from scratch easier than reverse engineering someone else's work.


Probably they couldnt develop some features from rtts and they clone it


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Lol there is a new guy in the EVGA forums named "Cain Rage EVGA dog" or something like that and just insulting RagingCain all over the place now. This is getting out of hand for no reason.


I was looking for him. Can you provide a link? Lol i want to see this guy ( and have a word with him)


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> I was looking for him. Can you provide a link? Lol i want to see this guy ( and have a word with him)


http://forums.evga.com/Profile/2050813/

I have reported him to the mods there, the guys is pretty much carrying out a personal attack for whatever reason.


----------



## Allanitomwesh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Okay, this is one way of doing it, however, why? RE is not a simple operation, and the result is a semi-functioning free utility?
> What's the motivation? Just screw over the RTTS creator? There is no money involved after the fact... infact it will cost time and money to do this.
> 
> ...I suppose creative control is one motivator, if not a bizarre approach.
> 
> EVGA could have simply built their own tool from scratch easier than reverse engineering someone else's work.


Well,they did go out of their way to sing from the top of the mountain that it was 100% in house. Probably did start from scratch,realised from scratch would put them behind feature wise,so this.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

wow that guy is waaaay out of line... the way he communicates sounds supicously russian
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Allanitomwesh*
> 
> Well,they did go out of their way to sing from the top of the mountain that it was 100% in house. Probably did start from scratch,realised from scratch would put them behind feature wise,so this.


I saw that evga has removed there 100% claim they said earlier. This leads me to believe they have made some compremises with unwinder.


----------



## fateswarm

Unwinder posted a response to RagingCain

http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4875940&postcount=251

Found via that rage guy


----------



## TFL Replica

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Unwinder posted a response to RagingCain
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4875940&postcount=251
> 
> Found via that rage guy


That's already been posted. RC's response is *here*.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TFL Replica*
> 
> That's already been posted. RC's response is *here*.


Yep, I realized later he responded. I didn't notice the Unwinder response posted when I was skipping through the thread.


----------



## Allanitomwesh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> wow that guy is waaaay out of line... the way he communicates sounds supicously russian
> I saw that evga has removed there 100% claim they said earlier. This leads me to believe they have made some compremises with unwinder.


Proof of guilt? Unwinder himself comes of as the kind of guy who doesn't "just rant".It ain't tricking if you can back it up yes?


----------



## fateswarm

This pretty much proves his code is in future versions:
Quote:


> Anyway, you can easily replicate the claims using the following simple steps:
> 
> - All string tables are located inside PrecisionX.exe. You can easily view this application in any binary file viewer (e.g. I use FAR) and view it as UNICODE (all string tables use UNICODE encoding). After opening it simply do a simple search for "RivaTuner" text (once again, in UNICODE). This way you'll easily locate the string table, which belongs to original RivaTuner core with no doubts. For example in 5.0.0.16 (standalone version) it is located in close to 1E2xxx offset. It is also inside 5.0.0.17 as well. There are traces very specific to RT core, e.g. RivaTuner's USF skin compiler/decompiler messages ("Failed to decompile %s skin", "%s skin has been successfully decompiled" etc.), messages related to specific RivaTuner core components, e.g. RTCore driver loader messages, RivaTuner Task Scheduler Helper loader messages ("Failed to load RTTSH.dll") and many more. Those things physically cannot be inside in-house project.


Because that's how you do it, and easily replicated.


----------



## TFL Replica

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Allanitomwesh*
> 
> Proof of guilt? Unwinder himself comes of as the kind of guy who doesn't "just rant".It ain't tricking if you can back it up yes?


Speaking as someone who visits the guru3D AB sub-forum on a semi-frequent basis, Unwinder actually rants VERY often. However, that doesn't prove anything in this case, and I find it unlikely that he would do such a thing. Innocent until proven guilty.


----------



## bvsbutthd101

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Daffron*
> 
> This is annoying me also. I'm in game but Steam says I'm currently in Precision X, which means nobody will invite me to their party :'( Only annoyance so far, the rest of the program seems greatly improved.


I found a temporary fix. Precision doesn't need to be open in order for it to save your OC's and fan profiles and what not. You can close out of it and it keeps all your settings. Now steam want say your "In-app" anymore.


----------



## DFroN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bvsbutthd101*
> 
> I found a temporary fix. Precision doesn't need to be open in order for it to save your OC's and fan profiles and what not. You can close out of it and it keeps all your settings. Now steam want say your "In-app" anymore.


I assume that means the OSD won't work though? This release has far too many other bugs anyway, I just went back to v4.2.1 for now.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Lol there is a new guy in the EVGA forums named "Cain Rage EVGA dog" or something like that and just insulting RagingCain all over the place now. This is getting out of hand for no reason.


Hah, that's comical.


----------



## bigkahuna360

I hate Precision X 15. No matter what I do, I got the OSD in Waterfox and when I right click. Also, the new layout for the OSD is not to my liking either.


----------



## Paladin Goo

I'd use it if I could get the EVGA Server window to pop up. Nothing happens when I click it in the tray. I just went back to 4.2.1 and RTSS.


----------



## skupples

did we get any proof of anything yet, or are anti-nvidia / anti EVGA people still just running their mouths with zero facts accusing EVGA of being an evil corporation & what ever else?

Seriously, it is a joke how assumption based some of these posts are. Arm Chair lawyers who likely didn't even finish college are my favorite.

We know nothing. He said vs. She said.

Unwinder should upload screenshots of his Contract with EVGA if it is as cut & dry as he claims, until then this thread is about as full of hot air as it can get.

honestly though... copy & paste code would work better than PX15 is working (or not working)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krahe*
> 
> Cain did his best to answer peoples questions, at no time did I read him say his conclusions were proof either way. And as somebody pointed out earlier, EVGA's quietness on the subject and Unwinders willingness to forget about it suggest the two have made a private compromise.


it should have been private the entire time. Both of them going public makes both of them look like attention seeking cry babies.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Allanitomwesh*
> 
> Proof of guilt? Unwinder himself comes of as the kind of guy who doesn't "just rant".It ain't tricking if you can back it up yes?


you should go spend some time on his threads over on Guru3D. Unwinder is not as calm & collected as you assume. his program is great, but people need to stop assuming that he is the perfect little corporation screwed over angel.


----------



## Shogon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> honestly though... copy & paste code would work better than PX15 is working (or not working)


After trying PX15 on my folding PC oh boy it needs some work still I tell you lol.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> did we get any proof of anything yet, or are anti-nvidia / anti EVGA people still just running their mouths with zero facts accusing EVGA of being an evil corporation & what ever else?
> 
> Seriously, it is a joke how assumption based some of these posts are. Arm Chair lawyers who likely didn't even finish college are my favorite.
> 
> We know nothing. He said vs. She said.
> 
> Unwinder should upload screenshots of his Contract with EVGA if it is as cut & dry as he claims, until then this thread is about as full of hot air as it can get.
> 
> honestly though... copy & paste code would work better than PX15 is working (or not working)
> it should have been private the entire time. Both of them going public makes both of them look like attention seeking cry babies.


It's been substantiated at this point that EVGA pretty much copied Unwinder's IP.

In fact, there's some evidence of EVGA attempting to reverse-engineer Afterburner's updates...And doing so very unsuccessfully. (If you go update vs. update)

So at this point, I don't think there's a question that EVGA copied Unwinder...The question is, did they have permission and was it "the right thing to do"/acceptable?

According to EVGA: "We would never do that but, we might have, we're investigating to verify but, even so, we wrote it, even if it was/is a direct copy..."
According to Unwinder: "You even copied the Rivatuner assets...So clearly you copied it..."

And as Ragin has proven, it's essentially a copy/paste with some name swapping...AKA not EVGA's IP. (That's my opinion based on what Ragin has proven)

Really what this boils down to is where you stand on the moral fence.

To me, EVGA stole IP that they had no right to...Because Afterburner got an update before them...Stealing is stealing is stealing.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> did we get any proof of anything yet, or


Pretty much

http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4875940&postcount=251
Quote:


> Anyway, you can easily replicate the claims using the following simple steps:
> 
> - All string tables are located inside PrecisionX.exe. You can easily view this application in any binary file viewer (e.g. I use FAR) and view it as UNICODE (all string tables use UNICODE encoding). After opening it simply do a simple search for "RivaTuner" text (once again, in UNICODE). This way you'll easily locate the string table, which belongs to original RivaTuner core with no doubts. For example in 5.0.0.16 (standalone version) it is located in close to 1E2xxx offset. It is also inside 5.0.0.17 as well. There are traces very specific to RT core, e.g. RivaTuner's USF skin compiler/decompiler messages ("Failed to decompile %s skin", "%s skin has been successfully decompiled" etc.), messages related to specific RivaTuner core components, e.g. RTCore driver loader messages, RivaTuner Task Scheduler Helper loader messages ("Failed to load RTTSH.dll") and many more. Those things physically cannot be inside in-house project.


That's painfully regular procedure and easily replicatable.


----------



## deafboy

Either way, we'll really never know for sure. It's going to be a he said / she said kind of thing. I doubt either party is going to post paperwork signed by both parties with the agreement.


----------



## TheReciever

there is a need to spell out the facts or simply keep their mouths shut.

All this finger pointing is just giving an excuse for those with vendetta's to feel justified in their rants.

I would never use Unwinder's software on principle alone, unsavory character that one.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheReciever*
> 
> there is a need to spell out the facts or simply keep their mouths shut.
> 
> All this finger pointing is just giving an excuse for those with vendetta's to feel justified in their rants.
> 
> I would never use Unwinder's software on principle alone, unsavory character that one.


That's just it.

Cain's analysis/unhashing basically shows us that, to a certain extent, it WAS copied by EVGA.

So at this point, Unwinder's claims are substantiated.

Per Cain:
Quote:


> Unwinder has established there are parts of PrecisionX he did not authorize to be there. Depending on his contract he might be completely valid, as nobody really knows the intricacies of the agreement between EVGA and Unwinder. However, I do believe Unwinder has a valid claim going off of what we know.
> 
> EVGA has some explaining, but I want to point out, Unwinder himself has said they did not have source code.
> 
> It is safe to absolutely say, even if it was just what we see above, EVGA have made a false claim of 100% in house code as some of it obviously exists in work Unwinder did.


What this entire situation boils down to is that it was copied.

Is that illegal? Well, not really -- The issue here, for me, is that EVGA essentially lied in their statement...Because they pretty blatantly copied someone else's IP.

This really comes down to where your morals stand. Do you feel that what EVGA did was right or wrong?

This happens in the coding world quite frequently but, those individuals are normally blackballed, hard. (Which, I'm sure Cain can support as being true)

As to if this is public or private? I think the fact that a major computer company copied someone's work and lied about it to be rather newsworthy...We're a small community -- This matters.

Personally, I stopped buying EVGA after the X79 fallout. So, I don't have a horse in this race but, if they're willing to lie about designing a code...Makes you wonder what else is on that table.


----------



## criminal

I would like to say that I could boycott Evga if they did in fact steal Unwinder's IP, but I am not sure who I would get my next Nvidia gpu from. And if I am going to take the moral high ground like some folks here, then I guess I should be running an AMD cpu in my next rig.









But I guess if you are like some who just have an apparent dislike for Evga, you can "pretend" to be doing the ethical thing while spreading your dislike for Evga.


----------



## szeged

the people saying they are gonna stop buying evga products because of this are the same people who buy every EA game and its 500 DLCs after just getting dont complaining about how EA milks people and DLCs suck etc etc.

they arent going to do it. theyll keep buying.


----------



## VSG

I really think it is time to stop this discussion and lock this thread. Unwinder requested we all not discuss this anymore given that we don't have the entire story. EVGA has already given their formal sentence and likely won't have another after this. All we are doing now are being forum lawyers and detectives.


----------



## Simmons572

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I really think it is time to stop this discussion and lock this thread. Unwinder requested we all not discuss this anymore given that we don't have the entire story. EVGA has already given their formal sentence and likely won't have another after this. All we are doing now are being forum lawyers and detectives.


Seconded.


----------



## Boulard83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> I really think it is time to stop this discussion and lock this thread. Unwinder requested we all not discuss this anymore given that we don't have the entire story. EVGA has already given their formal sentence and likely won't have another after this. All we are doing now are being forum lawyers and detectives.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Simmons572*
> 
> Seconded.


REseconded


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I would like to say that I could boycott Evga if they did in fact steal Unwinder's IP, but I am not sure who I would get my next Nvidia gpu from.


I would happily buy from them while I would fully believe they did it. In fact, I'm 99% convinced his code was reused since his binary-strings reasoning seems pretty much solid and common procedure to replicate. Still happy I got a PSU from them last month.

I've been while enough in this world to know no company (or person) is perfect.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheReciever*
> 
> there is a need to spell out the facts or simply keep their mouths shut.
> 
> All this finger pointing is just giving an excuse for those with vendetta's to feel justified in their rants.
> 
> I would never use Unwinder's software on principle alone, unsavory character that one.


I feel sorry for the guy. Can you imagine being bombarded by noob questions over and over for years. No one bothers to google anymore nor verify facts before asking the stupidest questions. And the guy isn't paid for tech support anyways. There is no doubt that he is cantankerous. Whatever your feelings are he's necessary for the community. How far would overclocking have gone w/o his development work for the last... I can't even remember how far back it goes? And for the record and I have not gotten along with Unwinder much but despite that I respect what he's done. He's singled me out on a couple occasions to rant away lol, I do remember. But still the guy is necessary, maybe necessary evil in some opinions.

How far would you all have gotten overclocking w/o AB? And now that it's been stolen, obviously stolen... it's a bit disgusting to see the haters jump out of the wood work. Some even challange that he was even the source of the development lol. Shakes head...


----------



## h2spartan

I will still use and stand by EVGA.The product that they sell me is top notch and they have never done me wrong. I have never had one bad experience with EVGA....Ever.

If they did steal, and are found out with conclusive evidence, I am saddened by it but I will give them a chance to learn from this especially if they continue to provide the exemplary customer service.

I love you EVGA!


----------



## skupples

sounds like the only thing left to do is to get Unwinder, EVGA, & MSI to upload their contracts. Until then, it is STILL he said she said, even with bits of copied code being substantiated.

sigh, told my self I wasn't going to post here, but i'm updating my workstation to win8 so i can use SCCM without jumping through tons of hoops.

I would be surprised if the EVGA contract didn't include a non-compete, but eh, i have no proof, so i can't say that it DOES (hint hint wink wink nudge nudge)
seriously though...

People stating / demanding black lists... If only you knew the things your favorite corporations have done to compete... You would have no where to buy your products from, if only we knew.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> sounds like the only thing left to do is to get Unwinder, EVGA, & MSI to upload their contracts. Until then, it is STILL he said she said, even with bits of copied code being substantiated.
> 
> sigh, told my self I wasn't going to post here, but i'm updating my workstation to win8 so i can use SCCM without jumping through tons of hoops.
> 
> *I would be surprised if the EVGA contract didn't include a non-compete*, but eh, i have no proof, so i can't say that it DOES (hint hint wink wink nudge nudge)
> seriously though...
> 
> People stating / demanding black lists... If only you knew the things your favorite corporations have done to compete... You would have no where to buy your products from, if only we knew.


None of that is possible. He's been under contract with MSI the whole time. He cannot sell rights to one party and sell again to another party. Even the logistics of that are moronic given the time frames here. Someone is not telling the truth obviously. EVGA is acting like they are at the front of the line, but they insult our intelligence when there's MSI right there. The elephant in the room.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Wait a minute. EVGA claims that they had a relationship with Unwinder and working versions of Precision in 2008 which predates AB by several months, or so I thought...


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Wait a minute. EVGA claims that they had a relationship with Unwinder and working versions of Precision in 2008 which predates AB by several months, or so I thought...


This is true from everything I have read. It must not have been exclusive since Afterburner came out in 2009 with a different skin.


----------



## tsm106

Obviously its unpossible!


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

I'm just saying that EVGA was on the scene before MSI and they obviously had some kind of contract with him because they were paying him up until December 2013...


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> I'm just saying that EVGA was on the scene before MSI and they obviously had some kind of contract with him because they were paying him up until December 2013...


And one app keeps getting all the goodies but the other is treated liek the red headed step child. Hmm...


----------



## Kimir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> And one app keeps getting all the goodies but the other is treated liek the red headed step child. Hmm...


Because MSI requested features and funded them. That's why AB 3.0 exist.


----------



## provost

Uwinder is obviously a very talented programmer, but he might be wasting his talents working for the gpu companies..lol
Being a Russian, he has a pretty good shot at working for a dark pool and make a lot more money, if he is that good...lol
Why do I say Russian, because Russians learn how to code by writing it down first, fixing any bugs, since they get limited time on the computer, or at least this is the way it used to be ...








It makes them pretty darn good...lol


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> And one app keeps getting all the goodies but the other is treated liek the red headed step child. Hmm...


Yeah, I can easily see why EVGA might have been a little peeved...


----------



## skupples

funny thing is... I just commented on when PX would get an update, then Jacob quoted me with "well now that you mention it!"

I think we are going to find out the MSI paid unwinder to NOT do business with EVGA for X number of months so that AB could take the front runner. Something about the EVGA Vs. Unwinder back & forth just doesn't sit right with me. I think they are both hiding something.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> And one app keeps getting all the goodies but the other is treated liek the red headed step child. Hmm...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I can easily see why EVGA might have been a little peeved...
Click to expand...

It shows intent or motive. As we can see MSI is getting updates, and both parties are under contract and EVGA does not take priority over MSI. If MSI is getting new developments, they must be paying for them? I don't know of any way to not pay for services and yet to receive new product... The strangeness seems at least to me to point to EVGA. What are they doing wrong to not get the new development from Unwinder? EVGA has already shown a propensity to not pay their contract. But the crazy thing is their intent and lack of proper procedure. They stop paying and then six months later w/o communication release the app with all the things they wanted. That's not suspicious at all!


----------



## skupples

Right, and this is why i think both sides of the story are omitting damming evidence.


----------



## Bulldozer72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> I think we are going to find out the MSI paid unwinder to NOT do business with EVGA for X number of months so that AB could take the front runner. Something about the EVGA Vs. Unwinder back & forth just doesn't sit right with me. I think they are both hiding something.


This has been my take on this situation out of the gate. With AB getting updates Px was not, did MSI have a "no-way-ever-do-you-sell-these-features-to-evga" clause in the agreement/contract? But even if this is true, it does not help evga to tell the world that their new Px was "100% in-house", then side step a little and go silent. Who is hiding what is my only question.

It happens many times a day in many business's people. Not saying it is right, just saying it is more often the norm. It has been happening since man rubbed sticks together to make fire. Yet people still naively deny it.

It takes the common sense of a third grader to view this situation and see that both parties want to sweep this under the rug at this point and move on to other things that reflect them in a positive manner. We are never going to know the whole truth, so let it die.


----------



## deafboy

If you want me to boycott anyone, show me both contracts.... until then, it's all speculation and I couldn't care less.

Until
1) a contract that irrefutably shows EVGA is guilty
2) a better nVidia company comes around
I don't care.

"Stealing" software without the code is kind of hard...."stealing" the idea is something else all together.

Have yet to see proof from either side and likely never will. In the big scheme of things, not that big of a deal either way in comparison to a lot of the other crap that's out there.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deafboy*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> If you want me to boycott anyone, show me both contracts.... until then, it's all speculation and I couldn't care less.
> 
> Until
> 1) a contract that irrefutably shows EVGA is guilty
> 2) a better nVidia company comes around
> I don't care.
> 
> "Stealing" software without the code is kind of hard...."stealing" the idea is something else all together.
> 
> Have yet to see proof from either side and likely never will. In the big scheme of things, not that big of a deal either way in comparison to a lot of the other crap that's out there.


----------



## RagingCain

I personally feel this was a tiny deal that has been exposed as a nuclear explosion.

I think I have proven EVGA wrote most of their own program, and I have proven that some of Unwinder's claims are also true.


----------



## deafboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*


Was that suppose to link to proof?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deafboy*
> 
> Was that suppose to link to proof?


hehe... iwas agreeing with you.

a typical software conflict that likely has blame to place on multiple parties. PrecX didn't get an update for what? A year? The whole while MSI AB is going from an identical product to leaps & bounds better? & people have the gull to pretend that Unwinder is an innocent bystander in all of this?


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deafboy*
> 
> If you want me to boycott anyone, show me both contracts.... until then, it's all speculation and I couldn't care less.
> 
> Until
> 1) a contract that irrefutably shows EVGA is guilty
> 2) a better nVidia company comes around
> I don't care.
> 
> "Stealing" software without the code is kind of hard...."stealing" the idea is something else all together.
> 
> Have yet to see proof from either side and likely never will. In the big scheme of things, not that big of a deal either way in comparison to a lot of the other crap that's out there.


So true









This situation akes me feel like I'm reading someones opinion on a blog.

No lawyers involved? No contracts? No proof? No anything? Why should we care if either side can not substantiate their claims. If they are going to go back and forth that is great for them, but we are wasting our time putting our belief toward either side.


----------



## inedenimadam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I personally feel this was a tiny deal that has been exposed as a nuclear explosion.
> 
> I think I have proven EVGA wrote most of their own program, and I have proven that some of Unwinder's claims are also true.


So should we just write this off as a butt hurt ex-contractor and his old employer squabbling over some grey area code in a free program all being blown out of proportion by a sensationalist media source?


----------



## HMBR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> hehe... iwas agreeing with you.
> 
> a typical software conflict that likely has blame to place on multiple parties. PrecX didn't get an update for what? A year? The whole while MSI AB is going from an identical product to leaps & bounds better? & people have the gull to pretend that Unwinder is an innocent bystander in all of this?


if you read the original link comments he explains his version of why,

EVGA contracted him for a basic OC software, and he did that but also included the RTSS stuff as a bonus, and EVGA had no interest in paying for the additional content, while MSI did, MSI payed for RTSS and for the development of the 64bit version, while EVGA didn't

basically MSI was paying for more and getting more,


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HMBR*
> 
> if you read the original link comments he explains his version of why,
> 
> EVGA contracted him for a basic OC software, and he did that but also included the RTSS stuff as a bonus, and EVGA had no interest in paying for the additional content, while MSI did, MSI payed for RTSS and for the development of the 64bit version, while EVGA didn't
> 
> basically MSI was paying for more and getting more,


Yes, iv'e read about 6-7 updates of back & forth between the two of them.

I want to see contracts, until then I really can't pass judgement.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Well that'll never happen so this story should just die right here. It will have absolutely no effect on my opinion of EVGA, MSI, or Unwinder going forward and I will happily do business with any of them in the future (in fact my shiny new MSI R9 270X Gaming just arrived today!!)


----------



## provost

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> It shows intent or motive. As we can see MSI is getting updates, and both parties are under contract and EVGA does not take priority over MSI. If MSI is getting new developments, they must be paying for them? I don't know of any way to not pay for services and yet to receive new product... The strangeness seems at least to me to point to EVGA. What are they doing wrong to not get the new development from Unwinder? EVGA has already shown a propensity to not pay their contract. But the crazy thing is their intent and lack of proper procedure. They stop paying and then six months later w/o communication release the app with all the things they wanted. That's not suspicious at all!


Although it is unlikely that any contracts will ever be made public, unless compelled by law in a legal proceeding, the above claim does have an intuitive appeal. Regardless of which party breached its respective good faith obligations, there must be a reason why PX did not get an update, and MSI did.
It's pay to play in the big boys league, and it looks MSI paid and EVGA didn't (or not enough to outbid MSI).








I am sure part of the blame rests with both parties which is usually the case when it comes to a money...lol


----------



## wanako

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inedenimadam*
> 
> So should we just write this off as a butt hurt ex-contractor and his old employer squabbling over some grey area code in a free program *all being blown out of proportion by a sensationalist media source*?


Yes


----------



## skupples

sensational media?! No way man! No such thing. All media is 100% legit, no matter which side of the isle you (foolishly) associate your self with!


----------



## wanako

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> sensational media?! No way man! No such thing. All media is 100% legit, no matter which side of the isle you (foolishly) associate your self with!


my sarcasm meter is going off the charts here.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> sensational media?! No way man! No such thing. All media is 100% legit, no matter which side of the isle you (foolishly) associate your self with!


Especially media sites like Guru who have an extensive history with both Unwinder and MSI. No bias against EVGA at all there!


----------



## Allanitomwesh

Time for some Gainward Phantom action







I was going to become an EVGA distributor, but now ...


----------



## _GTech

Without a patent, they can't protect it... :/


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Allanitomwesh*
> 
> Time for some Gainward Phantom action
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to become an EVGA distributor, but now ...


but now what?


----------



## Strat79

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *INCREDIBLEHULK*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Allanitomwesh*
> 
> Time for some Gainward Phantom action
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to become an EVGA distributor, but now ...
> 
> 
> 
> but now what?
Click to expand...

I have to laugh at those types of posts also. It is highly likely any large corporation has done some immoral and/or illegal things to get to where they are. I think of large corporations much like I do of politicians. They all have done wrongs, only a few get caught. Boycotting a company, especially over something like this, is pretty silly imo. Doubly so when the guilt is still in doubt. I've never owned a single EVGA product but I wouldn't hesitate to if something was priced right and I wanted it.


----------



## Nihaan

Even if their claims were true i wouldnt feel sorry for him or i wouldnt stop buying from Evga, why would i ? Jerks like Hilbert and Unwinder can go cry about it all day long, i don't care. This is just their way siding with MSI (a company that doesn't even have proper customer or rma services) and fighting against Evga with this bs.

I'm surprised people didn't dig more into this.

Here we go this is from last year.... Incase they try to remove all those posts from guru3d i will take screenshots aswell. This is just an example you can find many on their forums..

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=371455

http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4691462&postcount=10

http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4691910&postcount=13

Even a simple request makes you get a ban from their site. Look at his tone and look what he says about Precision... How he threatens people.




I'm glad Evga worked on new Precision after cutting this jerk out so we won't wait ages to get a simple feature or to get an update anymore.


----------



## Pantsu

Good lord the entitlement of some people.


----------



## fateswarm

Wow. Would you seriously boycott someone that did something like that? I find it 99% likely he is right based on his binary-strings evidence (easy to replicate so very hard to fake) and I still would not mind buying from EVGA again.

It seems you don't know the world is not a perfect place.

Chances are most of what you buy have done worse.


----------



## szeged

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Allanitomwesh*
> 
> Time for some Gainward Phantom action
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to become an EVGA distributor, but now ...


but now they decided someone who bases their judgment off half a story being blown out of proportion isnt worth their time? yeah that seems like a good move on evga's part.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

What happened to integrity?


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nihaan*
> 
> *snip*


You know, I can take an incredibly 1 sided rendition of your posts as well and portray a similar picture, here.

That individual was actually a racist...And deserved to be banned long before his requests..And everyone else he threatened, again - There's an entire forum there bro, not just 1 window.

I think he is a -- but, that doesn't mean I don't respect what he does -- And what work he does, shouldn't be reverse engineered and stolen by thieves.

Your personal feelings toward Unwinder shouldn't influence how you feel about a company stealing someone else's intellectual Property.

Tell you what, go develop a program. Let me know when you're done. I'm going to take it and build an entire utility program ontop of it! - Let's see how you feel!


----------



## RagingCain

I just posted on Guru3D for the first time since joining 7 years ago. In case I am deleted, I think someone needed to say it. Even if I incur the radioactive force of Unwinders followers.
Quote:


> Well I guess it's time I finally post after 7 years.
> 
> I am RagingCain. Guru3D is the first forum I actually joined years ago to learn about overclocking.
> 
> Unwinder, I have been using RivaTuner as long as I can remember, in one form or another. I thank you for your service to the community. I would not have had a single overclocking accomplishment without your software.
> 
> I would like to clarify my post that you got a chance to read, while doing my original side by side analysis through a decompilation. Which as you know is what 80% undecipherable (on a good day)?
> 
> I do not have any experience in reverse engineering any application. In fact, I really don't know much about anything. ^.^ I just applied my other skills and logic to see if I could to validate your claims. The young ones on OCN were getting a little riley.
> 
> The decompilation strings, or your string tables, is what I used to compare the two pieces of software. Not a binary viewer, so that definitely explains why we didn't see the same things.
> 
> I started in the header and footer file of the binaries, which is the standard IDE injection of data such as things like configuration files, assembly information, library inclusions. That's what I referred to when I meant the standard Visual Studio stuff was both there, in an attempt to look for your claims (the ones you had made prior to evidence.)
> 
> I apologize for not finding the RTSS dll reference, the Unicode search feature of the application was not working correctly and the gaps between the string letters (since it's unicode) were not spaces.
> 
> When you explained how I could see what you saw, I went back and retraced your steps.
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1502290/guru3d-did-evga-just-steal-the-rivatuner-rtss-design-concept/300_50#post_22583571
> 
> I am willing to admit when I am wrong. I do apologize if you felt offended by my lack of skill.
> 
> However, I would like to point out though, these programs are in fact vastly different despite having these string references. I also want to point out that your DLL is not included with the PrecisionX 15 binaries, so despite being in the code, these functions have to be inert. Even according to you, EVGA and MSI have never had your source code.
> 
> Isn't it just possible they built over their old version Precision, replacing the code that was meant to interface with your software?
> 
> *You are absolutely in the right to call them out, for having code that is obviously in both programs (whether it is in use or not). You deserve full credit, and let's face it, your work is the entire inspiration of what they are doing.*
> 
> I just think that had you shown EVGA these findings first, they would have either issued an apology to you (giving credit), replaced the code, and or corrected their marketing shtick. Then had they not yielded, going public seems like a completely reasonable thing to do.
> 
> And if you feel that strongly about this, i.e. modifying the previous version of Precision to embarrass EVGA, just use legal representation via proxy. There are lawyers that specialize in this kind of stuff (often foregoing payment till after settlement.)


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Personally ill be glad when this all blows over..such hypocritical people on this thread.some users say they have such a bad distan for evga for years and yet they own very recent and multiple evga products


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> Personally ill be glad when this all blows over..such hypocritical people on this thread.some users say they have such a bad distan for evga for years and yet they own very recent and multiple evga products


Meh, hypocrites are everywhere -- It's the duality of mankind.

The DISDAIN, comes long before this thread/situation -- EVGA, particularly their motherboard department (Which is clearly a division and part of EVGA), have lied to customers in the past...Very blatantly. Like I said, those threads still exist on their forums and many thousands of users have essentially been shown the door...So, there is warranted disparity.

Quite personally, I haven't used EVGA hardware in my machine since my sponsored build -- So I can understand the GPU debate.

That being said, Cain is absolutely correct:
Quote:


> You are absolutely in the right to call them out, for having code that is obviously in both programs (whether it is in use or not). You deserve full credit, and let's face it, your work is the entire inspiration of what they are doing.


EVGA took something that wasn't theirs to take...Called it their own and claimed they designed it...Stolen is stolen is stolen.


----------



## Nihaan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> bs


Evga did not steal anything from him.. They didn't even have the source code in first place.. Thats what you need to understand.

To me this looks like something else... We all know how they are sided with Msi @guru3d so Unwinder and Hilbert are just trying to make Evga look bad, god knows if MSI paid them to write an article like that.. I wouldn't be surprised after seeing their amazing Classified and Lightning reviews lol









You ask me to believe those two ? Haha no thank you.


----------



## wholeeo

If EVGA is in the wrong I will boycott EVGA PX.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nihaan*
> 
> Evga did not steal anything from him.. They didn't even have the source code in first place.. Thats what you need to understand.
> 
> To me this looks like something else... We all know how they are sided with Msi @guru3d so Unwinder and Hilbert are just trying to make Evga look bad, god knows if MSI paid them to write an article like that.. I wouldn't be surprised after seeing their amazing Classified and Lightning reviews lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You ask me to believe those two ? Haha no thank you.


We know that you hate him. I read everyday 3dguru forums and all the time evga users ask him for features and support when its not his job. Probably you are one of them.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nihaan*
> 
> Evga did not steal anything from him.. They didn't even have the source code in first place.. Thats what you need to understand.
> 
> To me this looks like something else... We all know how they are sided with Msi @guru3d so Unwinder and Hilbert are just trying to make Evga look bad, god knows if MSI paid them to write an article like that.. I wouldn't be surprised after seeing their amazing Classified and Lightning reviews lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You ask me to believe those two ? Haha no thank you.


It's been proven otherwise so, you're full of hot air.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> We know that you hate him. I read everyday 3dguru forums and all the time evga users ask him for features and support when its not his job. Probably you are one of them.


He is.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nihaan*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Even if their claims were true i wouldnt feel sorry for him or i wouldnt stop buying from Evga, why would i ? Jerks like Hilbert and Unwinder can go cry about it all day long, i don't care. This is just their way siding with MSI (a company that doesn't even have proper customer or rma services) and fighting against Evga with this bs.
> 
> I'm surprised people didn't dig more into this.
> 
> Here we go this is from last year.... Incase they try to remove all those posts from guru3d i will take screenshots aswell. This is just an example you can find many on their forums..
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=371455
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4691462&postcount=10
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4691910&postcount=13
> 
> Even a simple request makes you get a ban from their site. Look at his tone and look what he says about Precision... How he threatens people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad Evga worked on new Precision after cutting this jerk out so we won't wait ages to get a simple feature or to get an update anymore.












This is obviously a mass conspiracy of EVGA forum users demanding things out of spite, that they know unwinder doesn't want to be arsed to do... oh wait..

+1 to you for digging this up good sir.

(people should take a good look at this date, obviously this drama between unwinder & EVGA is quite old)

Show me a company that has reps standing by to file an RMA @ 12:30AM on Christmas eve, & i'll move on from EVGA products.









sigh, thread has devolved into us vs. them?


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Masked you have lightings now? Huh i have a screeny of evga sc?


----------



## mtbiker033

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Especially media sites like Guru who have an extensive history with both Unwinder and MSI. No bias against EVGA at all there!


I have always trusted guru3d hardware reviews and have never detected any bias, they have done really good reviews of evga products...too bad you can't use PX15 on your 290x huh?


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> Masked you have lightings now? Huh i have a screeny of evga sc?


Wow, I'm glad that I don't update my sponsored build in over 2 years (since changing hardware) and now it's a point of judicial review.

Some people just don't care -- Like me.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Masked im not going to get this thread locked.. Just pointing out the obvious







. Its fine you dont like evga just kinda odd that you just changed you rig? Hypocrite's will be hypocritical


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaCk-AtTaCk*
> 
> Masked im not going to get this thread locked.. Just pointing out the obvious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Its fine you dont like evga just kinda odd that you just changed you rig? Hypocrite's will be hypocritical


Like I said, I had a sponsored build that never got completed, in fact the thread is around here somewhere: Return of the Sith.

After it was "completed", I parted most of it out and rebuilt it.

Did I change my rig? No, because I didn't know how actually -- Took me about 20 minutes of experimenting to change it now.

Fact being: I know what's in the case next to me, not a single part on it says EVGA, nor will it ever again.

Bottom line: EVGA stole someone else's IP...It's been proven continuously since Unwinder started his complaint.

Either you stand by thieves (proven thieves at this point) or you don't.

I haven't for a few years and am very proud not to.


----------



## skupples

this is probably my favorite quote of all of this back & forth...
Quote:


> *Unwinder on EVGA forums*
> 
> I hope Jacob can finally understand why I strongly insist on removing OSD from Precision. That's OK that OSD part doesn't bring me any income in Precision project, I added it to Precision per my wish to give people some RivaTuner-styled functionality in Precision besides the thing included in development/licensing budget and requested by EVGA and it was OK to continue doing so until it became the reason of endless insults in my address. But each time I try to get rid of OSD part (it happened many times) I get promises from Jacob that it will stop, that users will be educated by mods, etc, etc. I realize that company simple cannot keep the word. I also realize that company will always protect such users whatever they say simply because they bring money. So such posts will continue and never result in a single ban. I'm really tired of it. I no longer wish to give your customers something they don't pay for in exchange of reading deadly insulting things about "gigantic lazy douche" and so on. If you cannot protect even the name of your partners providing you free services, I'll do it myself by quiting the contract.


He really expects Jacob to be able to control the ignorant masses?









I guess what I don't understand is why people chose to use an inferior product... I know countless numbers of people here, and on other forums that dropped PrecX like a hot rock the minute AB pulled ahead (not that the GK110 voltage mods helped at all







)
[

By the way, has anyone actually provided physical proof of the stolen / overwritten unicode & other bits? I just see people saying "go look for your self! I did!" should be pretty easy to bust it open & highlight the matching bits.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Like I said, I had a sponsored build that never got completed, in fact the thread is around here somewhere: Return of the Sith.
> 
> After it was "completed", I parted most of it out and rebuilt it.
> 
> Did I change my rig? No, because I didn't know how actually -- Took me about 20 minutes of experimenting to change it now.
> 
> Fact being: I know what's in the case next to me, not a single part on it says EVGA, nor will it ever again.
> 
> Bottom line: EVGA stole someone else's IP...It's been proven continuously since Unwinder started his complaint.
> 
> Either you stand by thieves (proven thieves at this point) or you don't.
> 
> I haven't for a few years and am very proud not to.


Ok whatever you say







edit: oh and masked you should prob remove that evga picture by your sig rig while your at it. When you figure it out thats is.
On a dffrent note, actually enjoy reading gurus reviews. Its unfortunate this all had to happen.


----------



## skupples

Masked, you should probably stop buying any product produced by a corporation. They are all thieves, some are just better at hiding it than others.


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Masked, you should probably stop buying any product produced by a corporation. They are all thieves, some are just better at hiding it than others.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Masked, you should probably stop buying any product produced by a corporation. They are all thieves, some are just better at hiding it than others.


+1


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I just posted on Guru3D for the first time since joining 7 years ago. In case I am deleted, I think someone needed to say it. Even if I incur the radioactive force of Unwinders followers.


----------



## szeged

Posts about how you side with evga because you personally had a bad experience with unwinder and how your opinion is wrong.

Thenq goes on to post hate about evga because he had a bad experience with them and sides with unwinder.

Calls people hypocrites.

Is this real life.


----------



## maestro0428

Say it aint so! Loved EVGA until now. Ugh.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

Yup haha i think? This is real life


----------



## EVGA-JacobF

Important announcement:
Quote:


> We understand that there is a lot of confusion and misinformation in the internet community about Guru3D's article titled "Did EVGA just Steal the Rivatuner RTSS design concept into PrecisionX 15 ?". We would like to clarify the following:
> 
> 1. Precision's original main GUI concept was designed and provided to the community by EVGA in 2008.
> 2. The RivaTuner control panel and backend code in prior versions of Precision were developed and is owned by the RivaTuner developer. EVGA does not own the source code for any RivaTuner code. EVGA paid for the development and distribution rights per the contract.
> 3. The new EVGA PrecisionX 15 was coded from scratch by EVGA without copying any of the RivaTuner code.
> 4. Both RivaTuner and EVGA PrecisionX 15 make use of the NVIDIA NVAPI to communicate with NVIDIA graphics cards and drivers, which is owned and provided by NVIDIA.
> 
> Some people mentioned that the file structure in EVGA PrecisionX 15 is similar to the previous version of Precision. During development, we referenced the USF skin format (which has been published by RivaTuner developer at Guru3D forums in 2009 http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=3316361&postcount=8 to allow the community to create their own skins). The above mentioned feature would make it simple to allow users to recompile any previous skins to work with the new version of PrecisionX 15. However, we do understand the confusion caused by trying to maintain this feature and we will change it in the next release.
> 
> Next, it was also mentioned that the code contains text references (not code) to the word "RivaTuner" and the word "RTTSH.dll", a RivaTuner file. This actually came from the user interface localization / help (wording). During the original Precision development, EVGA worked with several outside firms to help translate user interface help files into various languages, unfortunately this is a misprint in the translation files and will be fixed. Again, no RivaTuner code was ever used in EVGA PrecisionX 15. We apologize to the RivaTuner developer for this error.
> 
> Originally our goal was to add more features such as 64bit OSD, Steam, updated voltage controls, and more to a new version without changing the Precision user's experience that they were already familiar with. Unfortunately, the "similarities" between the two programs have led people to believe that EVGA might have copied the code and design from RivaTuner, which is not the case. Given the circumstances, in order to remove any questions and to further differentiate it visually from the previous versions of EVGA Precision, EVGA has decided to listen to the community and suspend the downloading of EVGA PrecisionX 15 temporarily while these updates are being implemented.
> 
> Please remember, Precision was and is built for the community and without the community EVGA Precision and many other overclocking utilities would not be where they are today. It is EVGA's commitment to continue investing in the development of PrecisionX by adding the features the community asks for while providing it free of charge!
> 
> Thank You,
> EVGA


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Hi RagingCain,
> 
> No need to apologize at all, I appreciate your investigations and attempts to verify claims from independent point of view. In your second verification you try to compare internals of new PrecisionX.exe with RTSS.exe. You won't find many similarities there because you're comparing overclocking application executable with overlay server executable (basically just a GUI for hook loader). They are supposed to be different. What I referenced to in my claims was original Precision executable file. If you try to compare new PrecisionX.exe with EVGAPrecisionX.exe from previous 4.2.1 version (which is also my copyrighted material), you'll find much more similarities inside. Sadly, localization engine (Help/Localization folder contents, ID maps etc) and string table are close to be 100% equal. Besides that there are many similarities specific to internal application architecture and programming (skin compiler source code format, skin compiler command line switches, even the names of shared memory interfaces and synchronization objects), which let me declare with no doubts that original Precision X 4 application was reverse engineered and EVGA studied and tried to copy its internal architecture and silently taken some binary parts from it "as is". According to some traces most likely it was done in Taiwan EVGA office, and I'd really like to believe that people from American EVGA office I was previously working with were not aware about new project "development" approach. And of course it was not just a trivial recompilation of previously existing source code, as I declared I never provided it to company. Otherwise new PX 15 would just work without problems and without being so slow. So new project is created with reverse engineering and code reconstruction.
> Talking about showing EVGA these findings first, I see zero sense in it. Even if this situation will be solved one day, I see absolutely zero chances to continue partnership with the company in any form after this story. I don't need any compensations, I just need to protect my ideas, hard work and name. I know that my work is stolen, the person from the company responsible for that perfectly knows that too, now the community knows it as well. That's enough.
> And by the way, I was not going to make any public statements about dirty tricks the company used in PX 15 development. I was going to make EVGA complete surprise and give small panic to new PX 15 "developers" with Afterburner 4.0.0 announce. Anyway, you cannot hide the truth, the story became public from different side.


----------



## mcg75

Thread has been cleaned of off-topic posts and personal attacks going back to the statement EVGA just made.

Above, you have the second statement from EVGA and a statement from Unwinder.

Read them both and decide who you believe and that's that.

*No more attacks on EVGA, no more attacks on Unwinder and more importantly no more attacks on each other when you have a differing opinion.*


----------



## VSG

Seems like the best place to lock this thread to be honest. Most other places have moved on already.


----------



## MaCk-AtTaCk

i agree


----------



## TheReciever

I appreciate the effort of those involved and would prefer to continue receiving updates on the forum I like to call my home and not Guru. Thanks

So PR wise it seems both are sticking to their guns


----------



## provost

As unfortunate as this debacle is, it may turn out to be good news for the overclockers in the sense that they would have two competing over clocking software tools. EVGA would have to prove that it can provide a better product without Uwinder and hopefully EVga won't relegate the software development to some second rate programmer, as an afterthought. And, Uwinder would have to step up his game if he continues to want to have wider adoption of his program ( he may even develop better bedside manners on the Guru3d forum for the sake of it's members







)


----------



## Nihaan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVGA-JacobF*
> 
> Important announcement:


Thank you Jacob. We believe you and we support you.. Just ignore those haters and their false claims we can see what they are trying to achieve with that.

Considering it is only first version of Precision with the new Evga Development team, it looks great already. I can see that it will be the best oc tool with a lot of features with the upcoming updates. Keep up the good work and thank you for doing an amazing job for the community


----------



## blaze0079

lol...


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nihaan*
> 
> Thank you Jacob. We believe you and we support you.. Just ignore those haters and their false claims we can see what they are trying to achieve with that.
> 
> Considering it is only first version of Precision with the new Evga Development team, it looks great already. I can see that it will be the best oc tool with a lot of features with the upcoming updates. Keep up the good work and thank you for doing an amazing job for the community


hopefully it doesn't turn out like their last few motherboard bios'... I just hope this doesn't detract from the quality of future non-ref GPUs.









i guess i'm confused why MSI & EVGA think unwinder is the only person who can write an overclocking utility... There is something more to this, money. He was likely toying with it long before anyone else, but he is likely the cheapest option now.


----------



## error-id10t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *provost*
> 
> As unfortunate as this debacle is, it may turn out to be good news for the overclockers in the sense that they would have two competing over clocking software tools. EVGA would have to prove that it can provide a better product without Uwinder


This is where I get little confused.

Unwinder is "known" to have developed AB and it continually received updates where-as you look at Precision many people didn't know that nor did it get these updates. Only after asking who made it would people say something along the lines.. you know it's done by the same dude as AB.

In the past he has said he doesn't get paid at all to do any updates, he does it because he loves it, then he changed the tune to getting royalties from card sales and that's it (MSI side). Now there is this whole talk of contracts that nobody has seen and stealing code that is only known by him.

Yet this has exploded on at least 3 sites for god knows why without any proof. Someone mentioned suing via proxy, works perfectly well in US where people do this as soon as they wake-up because they feel like it. I say do it if you believe you have a leg to stand on otherwise it's all hot air.

So, yes we now have 2 competing products finally. Previously they were made by one person and one of them was completely ignored by that developer and any/all questions by EVGA owners were treated as troll and told to go back to EVGA forum.

Is there any wonder why EVGA have chosen this path..?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error-id10t*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> This is where I get little confused.
> 
> Unwinder is "known" to have developed AB and it continually received updates where-as you look at Precision many people didn't know that nor did it get these updates. Only after asking who made it would people say something along the lines.. you know it's done by the same dude as AB.
> 
> In the past he has said he doesn't get paid at all to do any updates, he does it because he loves it, then he changed the tune to getting royalties from card sales and that's it (MSI side). Now there is this whole talk of contracts that nobody has seen and stealing code that is only known by him.
> 
> Yet this has exploded on at least 3 sites for god knows why without any proof. Someone mentioned suing via proxy, works perfectly well in US where people do this as soon as they wake-up because they feel like it. I say do it if you believe you have a leg to stand on otherwise it's all hot air.
> 
> So, yes we now have 2 competing products finally. Previously they were made by one person and one of them was completely ignored by that developer and any/all questions by EVGA owners were treated as troll and told to go back to EVGA forum.
> 
> Is there any wonder why EVGA have chosen this path..?


Nope, something obviously happened between EVGA & Unwinder, & it likely happened 2 years ago. Why else would he treat people the way he does? Anyone that asks him about 64bit support on Guru3D is met with "go back to EVGA forums & die in a fire" type responses. So I want to know what happened between him & EVGA 2 years ago (PrecX received its last update before Titan even launched) I realize people are rude to him over the topic (supposedly telling him to die of cancer) but even the rudest internet person isn't really going to strike without being provoked. Owell, if I cared more I would dig further back into the Guru3D archives, but it seems allot of threads have been deleted or cleaned up.

I just hope Guru3D isn't dumb enough to allow them selves to become a contributing party in all of this drama.

As a 780 or titan owner... Why would you even want to use PrecX? Seems like anyone playing any modern games would jump ship to MSi-AB ASAP, unless they are 780Ti / Titan Black owners that run into the lacking support issues. Which brings me to my last question... What is the real reason for Unwinder not adding proper 780Ti / Titan Black support? Does he also have an issue with NV? Honestly sounds like Unwinder may be a drama queen.


----------



## fateswarm

This appears the juice, since it directly applies to the main argument that makes technical sense, that the binary code has string references to his code,

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVGA*
> Next, it was also mentioned that the code contains text references (not code) to the word "RivaTuner" and the word "RTTSH.dll", a RivaTuner file. This actually came from the user interface localization / help (wording). During the original Precision development, EVGA worked with several outside firms to help translate user interface help files into various languages, unfortunately this is a misprint in the translation files and will be fixed. Again, no RivaTuner code was ever used in EVGA PrecisionX 15. We apologize to the RivaTuner developer for this error.


I wonder if he will dispute the reasoning.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Can someone just make an UNWINDER / EVGA meme so we can close the thread and move on with the internets? That is how the internet works right?


----------



## TheReciever

Maybe on the internet, but here we like to have a concise view on things


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheReciever*
> 
> Maybe on the internet, but here we like to have a concise view on things


Which is why iv'e been asking for proof of anything for 2 days now. All I get met with is quotes of other people stating assumed facts, which the quoter then says are FACTS!

If you can take the program & extract its bits, then that content is completely legit to post as said proof of copy / pasta code. That is, if you (not you who I am quoting) have actually done what you claim you have done.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheReciever*
> 
> Maybe on the internet, but here we like to have a concise view on things


You must have missed the joke









I don't think OCN is the home of gossip though


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *INCREDIBLEHULK*
> 
> You must have missed the joke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think OCN is the home of gossip though


Just its neighbor.


----------



## TheReciever

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *INCREDIBLEHULK*
> 
> You must have missed the joke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think OCN is the home of gossip though


my bad lol, some of us here have been mentioning for us to move on as well. My apologies


----------



## Krahe

I hope the competition gives us better choices, tbh I'll use whichever suits me best. I dont think it is a bad thing that the argument between the two became common knowledge, the more information we have the better informed our decisions, whichever way they may fall.


----------



## Allanitomwesh

Seeing as I have been spammed twice already in my inbox by some diehard EVGA fan,I'm gonna ignore this now.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Allanitomwesh*
> 
> Seeing as I have been spammed twice already in my inbox by some diehard EVGA fan,I'm gonna ignore this now.


people from either extreme of the table do nothing but make them selves look like fools.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Nope, something obviously happened between EVGA & Unwinder, & it likely happened 2 years ago. Why else would he treat people the way he does? Anyone that asks him about 64bit support on Guru3D is met with "go back to EVGA forums & die in a fire" type responses. So I want to know what happened between him & EVGA 2 years ago (PrecX received its last update before Titan even launched) I realize people are rude to him over the topic (supposedly telling him to die of cancer) but even the rudest internet person isn't really going to strike without being provoked. Owell, if I cared more I would dig further back into the Guru3D archives, but it seems allot of threads have been deleted or cleaned up.
> 
> I just hope Guru3D isn't dumb enough to allow them selves to become a contributing party in all of this drama.
> 
> *As a 780 or titan owner... Why would you even want to use PrecX?* Seems like anyone playing any modern games would jump ship to MSi-AB ASAP, unless they are 780Ti / Titan Black owners that run into the lacking support issues. Which brings me to my last question... What is the real reason for Unwinder not adding proper 780Ti / Titan Black support? Does he also have an issue with NV? Honestly sounds like Unwinder may be a drama queen.


I always liked the look of Precision much better than AB with the cool speedometer-like gauge. That's the main reason I'd rather use Precision but AB is what allows me to have fun with my Titans so that's what I use...


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> I always liked the look of Precision much better than AB with the cool speedometer-like gauge. That's the main reason I'd rather use Precision but AB is what allows me to have fun with my Titans so that's what I use...


Exactly.

I use what ever provides me with the most functionality. This covers all aspects of my life. Suits, cars, PC parts, lawnmowers, weed whackers, grills, stoves... you get the point. My only loyalty is performance, & I pity those that are diehards for an inferior product simply because they like the name of the company. It makes me question other much more important decisions they are tasked with in their lives.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Lol, I'd definitely use Precision instead of AB if I could get the same voltage control with it as I do with AB! Precision has a far better looking interface (that evga DID design themselves)...


----------



## RagingCain

It's truly a shame, I would love to have been involved in the creation of a new Precision.


----------



## robE

We will never find out the truth as long as there will not be a legal action.

It's hard, evga has nice announcements, unewinder is really mad which probably means that evga did something, we won't really know how much or what did they copied.

This doesn't mean evga products are bad, well gpu's aren't the best but the support is the best so yeah, i'l still buy evga products









The only thing what grinds my gear is: why didn't evga announce that the new precision with x64 is in development the second after msi/unewinder announced the new msi afterburner?? I mean, why would you wait so much for competition to release their software and you don't say anything? Of course it opens up a lot of speculation and we will never know the truth that's for sure.

On the other hand, seeing how bad the new precision is, i tend to agree that the new precision isn't that much copy pasted.


----------



## provost

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error-id10t*
> 
> This is where I get little confused.
> 
> Unwinder is "known" to have developed AB and it continually received updates where-as you look at Precision many people didn't know that nor did it get these updates. Only after asking who made it would people say something along the lines.. you know it's done by the same dude as AB.
> 
> In the past he has said he doesn't get paid at all to do any updates, he does it because he loves it, then he changed the tune to getting royalties from card sales and that's it (MSI side). Now there is this whole talk of contracts that nobody has seen and stealing code that is only known by him.
> 
> Yet this has exploded on at least 3 sites for god knows why without any proof. Someone mentioned suing via proxy, works perfectly well in US where people do this as soon as they wake-up because they feel like it. I say do it if you believe you have a leg to stand on otherwise it's all hot air.
> 
> So, yes we now have 2 competing products finally. Previously they were made by one person and one of them was completely ignored by that developer and any/all questions by EVGA owners were treated as troll and told to go back to EVGA forum.
> 
> Is there any wonder why EVGA have chosen this path..?


Uwinder did develop AB, not just "known" to have have developed it, unless you are saying that others developed it with him. Just because he says that he is doing something out of passion, doesn't mean a commercial enterprise such as EVGA should expect his work or updates for free. I am not sure what was in the contract between Uwinder and Evga, but if I had to guess, I would say that the contract was too vague and the main dispute centered around Uwinder's compensation commensurated with the services provided. Like any business, Evga probably played hard ball and interpreted the contract with the legal vagueness built in. Uwinder probably also realized that he signed up to a crappy deal, and he also "played" the vaguely worded contract to his advantage. Thus, the relationship became too poisonous that evga as a business made the decision to sever its ties with Uwinder. And, given Uwinder's mercurial personality, a rational middle of the road business approach to resolving any impasse probably became improbable.
In the end, it is very likely that evga used his work to develop px15, and it is also very likely that a unwinder did not have stipulations in the contract specifying what constitutes his work vs. a joint developed IP. If it were a well written contract, none of this would have happened, as expectations and monetary consideration would have been clearly spelled out.

We will never know which party abused the contract to their advantage more than the other, but what's clear is that it is contract dispute between two parties, and it should not have become an emotionally charged soap opera ostensibly played out as a morality lesson.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *robE*
> 
> *We will never find out the truth as long as there will not be a legal action.
> *
> It's hard, evga has nice announcements, *unewinder is really mad which probably means that evga did something*, we won't really know how much or what did they copied.
> 
> This doesn't mean evga products are bad, well gpu's aren't the best but the support is the best so yeah, i'l still buy evga products
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing what grinds my gear is: why didn't evga announce that the new precision with x64 is in development the second after msi/unewinder announced the new msi afterburner?? I mean, why would you wait so much for competition to release their software and you don't say anything? Of course it opens up a lot of speculation and we will never know the truth that's for sure.
> 
> On the other hand, seeing how bad the new precision is, i tend to agree that the new precision isn't that much copy pasted.


I've been thinking the same, and at the end of the day it comes out to if there is no legal action to be taken then it's all a bunch of non-sense to be debated over who did what based on hearsay.

If evga sidelined a contract/law and did something, that would be unwinder's fault for not foreseeing the possibility and protecting his own work. We all know you don't skip pages on contracts for this type of work. You know exactly what you are doing, the company is paying for what you are doing, so everything is cut and clear, the grey areas are almost non-existent.

Whatever it may be that happened, did and is unfortunate, but both parties knew what they signed up for.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *provost*
> 
> Uwinder did develop AB, not just "known" to have have developed it, unless you are saying that others developed it with him. Just because he says that he is doing something out of passion, doesn't mean a commercial enterprise such as EVGA should expect his work or updates for free. I am not sure what was in the contract between Uwinder and Evga, but if I had to guess, I would say that the contract was too vague and the main dispute centered around Uwinder's compensation commensurated with the services provided. Like any business, Evga probably played hard ball and interpreted the contract with the legal vagueness built in. Uwinder probably also realized that he signed up to a crappy deal, and he also "played" the vaguely worded contract to his advantage. Thus, the relationship became too poisonous that evga as a business made the decision to sever its ties with Uwinder. And, given Uwinder's mercurial personality, a rational middle of the road business approach to resolving any impasse probably became improbable.
> In the end, it is very likely that evga used his work to develop px15, and it is also very likely that a unwinder did not have stipulations in the contract specifying what constitutes his work vs. a joint developed IP. If it were a well written contract, none of this would have happened, as expectations and monetary consideration would have been clearly spelled out.
> 
> We will never know which party abused the contract to their advantage more than the other, but what's clear is that it is contract dispute between two parties, and it should not have become an emotionally charged soap opera ostensibly played out as a morality lesson.


the contract vagueness was most likely there as it is in many contracts to the extent allowed by law. In all reality, if he didn't have a real lawyer revise his contract, then he basically signed up for what was in fine print.

can you imagine signing up for a credit card with "hidden apr" which is "subject to change" from "1-100%"









laws/statues only allow so much vagueness, so we can't pretend EVGA drew up some 50% grey area contract. Even if it was that bad, simply by having a clause that was unacceptable by a specific law/statute and a lawyer using this as grounds to terminate the contract.


----------



## specopsFI

There is just one party in this drama that actually lost something in my eyes and that is Guru3D and Hilbert. I've come to think of him as a rather fine tech journalist, but there is not a single bit of good journalism in the way he has been reporting this case. That's all I'm going to say about this.


----------



## fateswarm

I think it's pretty easy to find proof. Find a programmer/analyst with big experience in analyzing binary code and analyze the detailed claims of the author(s?). There has been a blatant reference of the original author on binary string references and EVGA had a reply to that.

Analyze that well and I'm pretty sure you'll be relatively confident of what's on.

If you can understand the result.


----------



## tout

Glad I got the new Precision X before they have removed the downloads.... works fine for me.

Unwinder sounds bitter but has shown nothing in the way of proof, people are innocent until proven guilty so all of you jumping on EVGA might want to realize the burden of proof lies with Unwinder. EVGA, on the other hand, just released rather specific information in their latest announcement.


----------



## MagicBox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tout*
> 
> Glad I got the new Precision X before they have removed the downloads.... works fine for me.
> 
> Unwinder sounds bitter but has shown nothing in the way of proof, people are innocent until proven guilty so all of you jumping on EVGA might want to realize the burden of proof lies with Unwinder. EVGA, on the other hand, just released rather specific information in their latest announcement.


Eh? He has provided the exact steps to show the blatant copy/reverse enginering in the related files. Just look up his last comment.

If I were given the relevant files, I could reproduce his results easily using his steps. The undisputed proof is already there.


----------



## tout

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MagicBox*
> 
> Eh? He has provided the exact steps to show the blatant copy/reverse enginering in the related files. Just look up his last comment.
> 
> If I were given the relevant files, I could reproduce his results easily using his steps. The undisputed proof is already there.


All merely words, he has provided nothing. In a court of law this wouldn't even be looked at. Again, it is *his* *burden* to *show* *proof*.

Do you not understand English? He has to *show* proof, not describe how to find it if you had files he won't give you. lol some people.

Also, if he has proof then why has he filed no lawsuit? If it was my property I would. Think about it. All he has done is run his mouth on some forums.


----------



## MagicBox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tout*
> 
> All merely words, he has provided nothing. In a court of law this wouldn't even be looked at. Again, it is *his* *burden* to *show* *proof*.


It would hold in court if a supposed contract would have had a clause that it would be forbidden to reverse enineer the final product while showing the technical proof of the dupe. However we're not talking courts here, all we're talking is "proof" which you deny its existence. But then again, are you proficient in the field of software development to the level you could conduct the test? I doubt so, given your total dismissal of Unwinders steps to reproduce the proof. You have no idea what he is actually talking about when he details the steps to reproduce. Just give it up already.


----------



## provost

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *INCREDIBLEHULK*
> 
> If evga sidelined a contract/law and did something, that would be unwinder's fault for not foreseeing the possibility and protecting his own work. We all know you don't skip pages on contracts for this type of work. You know exactly what you are doing, the company is paying for what you are doing, so everything is cut and clear, the grey areas are almost non-existent.
> 
> Whatever it may be that happened, did and is unfortunate, but both parties knew what they signed up for.
> the contract vagueness was most likely there as it is in many contracts to the extent allowed by law. In all reality, if he didn't have a real lawyer revise his contract, then he basically signed up for what was in fine print.
> 
> can you imagine signing up for a credit card with "hidden apr" which is "subject to change" from "1-100%"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> laws/statues only allow so much vagueness, so we can't pretend EVGA drew up some 50% grey area contract. Even if it was that bad, simply by having a clause that was unacceptable by a specific law/statute and a lawyer using this as grounds to terminate the contract.


And therein lies the rub....lol
Yes, Uwinder should have known better, and should have had competent counsel review and comment on the contract language , prior to finalizing. But, we are talking about a guy sitting in Ukraine trying to hammer out a deal with a sophisticated corporation in the US. Evga conducts business worldwide, and I wonder if the governing law for the contract was not NY or Delaware (would never have been California, as Evga knows better given this states record for silly litigation....lol), but some cowboy jurisdiction in a country with loosy goosy corporate law .
All this lawyering up costs money, and I doubt Uwinder is sophisticated enough, or would have had the financial wherewithal to retain counsel with appropriate experience, when the contract was signed.

Its not true that commercial law permits any vagueness. You would be surprised how any lawyer (read expensive







) can make a meal out of expanding a simple one page agreement into a twenty page document all in the name of clarifying any vagueness and protecting his or her client.


----------



## crazycrave

We know where EVGA stands with Nvidia as an AIB with the right to make there own software for Nvidia products.. I guess Uwinder can only write software as a 3rd party and needs a front man like MSI to keep Nvidia off of him legal as i'm sure Nvidia wouldn't want someone making money off of there products without a piece of the action.

Same thing that keeps Nvidia from making an x86 cpu as Intel and AMD will not allow it without being payed..


----------



## famich

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tout*
> 
> Glad I got the new Precision X before they have removed the downloads.... works fine for me.
> 
> Unwinder sounds bitter but has shown nothing in the way of proof, people are innocent until proven guilty so all of you jumping on EVGA might want to realize the burden of proof lies with Unwinder. EVGA, on the other hand, just released rather specific information in their latest announcement.


If someone steals your work in a country half globe far away , would you start. defending your rights and start showing proofs in , let us say , Russia or Ukraine ?









Come on .. Are you serious ? I know he s rude. And not very pleasant to deal with, but he s got the edge here .
D


----------



## Bit_reaper

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crazycrave*
> 
> We know where EVGA stands with Nvidia as an AIB with the right to make there own software for Nvidia products.. I guess Uwinder can only write software as a 3rd party and needs a front man like MSI to keep Nvidia off of him legal as i'm sure Nvidia wouldn't want someone making money off of there products without a piece of the action.
> 
> Same thing that keeps Nvidia from making an x86 cpu as Intel and AMD will not allow it without being payed..


Its not really comparable. What Uwinder is doing is just writing software, his own from scratch software. Nvidia can't ban that. At best they can make it problematic form an API/hardware standpoint.

x86 on the other hand is an instruction set that relates to hardware architecture and is tightly locked down with patents.

Nvidia trying to legally limit what kind of software people can write for their hardware would be like Canon telling people what they can and can't take pictures off with their cameras.


----------



## StarGazerLeon

What happened to the download links on EVGA's site? I want to give build 15 a go, because I really want 64bit OSD support; that's the only reason I would even bother updating.


----------



## VSG

They temporarily stopped the downloads so they could work out the bugs and change the GUI to avoid further comparisons with Afterburner's layout.


----------



## Silent Scone

Surprised this is still open. How are people even commenting as if everything is fact? Does someone have a copy of the contract?


----------



## ski-bum

Why would EVGA pull the download if THEY didn't have any problems?


----------



## VSG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ski-bum*
> 
> Why would EVGA pull the download if THEY didn't have any problems?


Read post 412. The current version has bugs also, they never said it didn't have problems.


----------



## tout

The comprehension level is quite astounding! I could say whatever I want on a forum and pass it off as a fact. Until I show some form of _physical evidence_ I'm just blowing hot air.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *StarGazerLeon*
> 
> What happened to the download links on EVGA's site? I want to give build 15 a go, because I really want 64bit OSD support; that's the only reason I would even bother updating.


Use MSI-AB. It (finally) has full support for OSD in 64b game engines.


----------



## ski-bum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geggeg*
> 
> Read post 412. The current version has bugs also, they never said it didn't have problems.


OK
Sorry Didn't want to read every post with all the negativity


----------



## Silent Scone

It's good to see there at least a handful of people on here with an ounce of common sense, can't say the same for other forums


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *specopsFI*
> 
> There is just one party in this drama that actually lost something in my eyes and that is Guru3D and Hilbert. I've come to think of him as a rather fine tech journalist, but there is not a single bit of good journalism in the way he has been reporting this case. That's all I'm going to say about this.


Agreed. I've been very disappointed in the way Guru has reported this story...


----------



## Paladin Goo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nihaan*
> 
> Even if their claims were true i wouldnt feel sorry for him or i wouldnt stop buying from Evga, why would i ? Jerks like Hilbert and Unwinder can go cry about it all day long, i don't care. This is just their way siding with MSI (a company that doesn't even have proper customer or rma services) and fighting against Evga with this.
> 
> I'm surprised people didn't dig more into this.
> 
> Here we go this is from last year.... Incase they try to remove all those posts from guru3d i will take screenshots aswell. This is just an example you can find many on their forums..
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=371455
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4691462&postcount=10
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4691910&postcount=13
> 
> Even a simple request makes you get a ban from their site. Look at his tone and look what he says about Precision... How he threatens people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad Evga worked on new Precision after cutting this jerk out so we won't wait ages to get a simple feature or to get an update anymore.


Wow. He really is a piece of work.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Agreed. I've been very disappointed in the way Guru has reported this story...


I guess they figured that bias is the standard in modern media, so why not conform.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *provost*
> 
> And therein lies the rub....lol
> Yes, Uwinder should have known better, and should have had competent counsel review and comment on the contract language , prior to finalizing. But, we are talking about a guy sitting in Ukraine trying to hammer out a deal with a sophisticated corporation in the US. Evga conducts business worldwide, and I wonder if the governing law for the contract was not NY or Delaware (would never have been California, as Evga knows better given this states record for silly litigation....lol), but some cowboy jurisdiction in a country with loosy goosy corporate law .
> All this lawyering up costs money, and I doubt Uwinder is sophisticated enough, or would have had the financial wherewithal to retain counsel with appropriate experience, when the contract was signed.
> 
> Its not true that commercial law permits any vagueness. You would be surprised how any lawyer (read expensive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) can make a meal out of expanding a simple one page agreement into a twenty page document all in the name of clarifying any vagueness and protecting his or her client.


Yeah, it sucks for him. Just one of those things he shouldn't pretend he didn't see coming.

Also when I wrote the law being vague, I meant in the sense of the law/statute itself is vague, for that reason there are the specific clauses to distinguish exactly what is used/enforced







. Even if the document isn't revised by a lawyer and you sign, many times it holds no weight when it hits a judge ( not always the case )

IE: wiretapping laws ( somewhat vague )
Recording via phone
Recording via voip
Recording in public place

For the most part at least our community is not fooled about what is going on


----------



## skyn3t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Agreed. I've been very disappointed in the way Guru has reported this story...


ppl there included the creator are "mood" from behaviors. ban and telling ppl to be quiet in the mood way is not good from his or they image. I have asked once there by the answer " I still think I should hold on my mount by the time" well too late now.

How many software out there has the same functions and operates the same. this is not news for the world. you just need to see it better.

I'm not take any side here or there but I stay and play were ppl makes me comfortable and treat me well.


----------



## antonio8

Out of all this and Evga redoing Precision on their on they take the main feature away that I like. It won't detect after the fourth gpu.

Nice going.


----------



## skupples

um... the guy that does _the voice_ for honest trailers looks like Demented.


----------



## Anonymous->Object

*sign* I guess no one knows Betteridge's law of headlines. Any time an article's headline ends in a question mark, the answer is always: *NO*.

Read this:

Betteridge's law of headlines - Wikipedia.org


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

I have nothing against his work obviously, RTSS is brilliant software and programming. I just think the guy's let his "fame" for lack of a better term go to his head and thinks he can treat people like crap now. Stuff like that goes around and then comes back around (karma) and maybe he's learned something? I dunno, but I'm certainly not taking anything away from his work as it is basically the only game in town (which is crazy considering how much people clamor for OCing utilities). You'd think somebody else would've come in and built something similar to compete by now...


----------



## skupples

I just find it hard to believe that he has done all of this for free. RTSS is on literally millions of PCs, and we are to believe he hasn't made even a penny off of his supposed "passion project?" I think this may be where some of his hostility is coming from on the topic. He has finally realized that he could have monetized the living hell out of his work, but didn't, thus was reduced to only the income from MSI during development time.


----------



## djthrottleboi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> I just find it hard to believe that he has done all of this for free. RTSS is on literally millions of PCs, and we are to believe he hasn't made even a penny off of his supposed "passion project?" I think this may be where some of his hostility is coming from on the topic. He has finally realized that he could have monetized the living hell out of his work, but didn't, thus was reduced to only the income from MSI during development time.


That would definitely make me grumpy. Especially considering everyone would pay for his work to get ahead hell EVGA would hate to be left behind and would probably pay for it.


----------



## dukeReinhardt

Unwinder has always been a bratty, insulting, and self-righteous sort. I've personally had no altercations with him, but, and I don't mean this as an insult, he really needs to feel some love. However, that doesn't condemn everything he says to be a lie. It would be a very weak lie to claim that he's looked into PrecX and found copied material, since any coder could do the same and call him out on it. And furthermore, why is EVGA even bothering to retract the program if they have nothing to hide? I respect them wanting new features that Unwinder was unwilling to provide for whatever reasons, and therefore letting him go. But whether EVGA is lying, or simply being nasty about the contract, PrecX looks like it too closely resembles RTSS and AB in both design and function to be designed from the ground up by EVGA. Whoever believes that would be setting the new bar for gullibility. Even if it was "designed from the ground up" to be an exact copy of Unwinder's work, that's still a rip-off. Whether legal or not, that's unpleasant behaviour; legality doesn't correspond with ethics.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Let's also remember that EVGA has never charged anything for their Precision software so its not exactly the same thing as piracy for profit even if they had straight up copied the code from old versions of Precision. Up until December 2013 Unwinder was apparently getting directly paid by EVGA, don't forget...


----------



## djthrottleboi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Let's also remember that EVGA has never charged anything for their Precision software so its not exactly the same thing as piracy for profit even if they had straight up copied the code from old versions of Precision. Up until December 2013 Unwinder was apparently getting directly paid by EVGA, don't forget...


agreed this is a little much for freeware.


----------



## TheReciever

Im surprised anyone would work with him to begin with. He seems like a PR nightmare honestly.

Makes me snuggly about my home here at OCN.


----------



## misoonigiri

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Let's also remember that EVGA has never charged anything for their Precision software so its not exactly the same thing as piracy for profit even if they had straight up copied the code from old versions of Precision. Up until December 2013 Unwinder was apparently getting directly paid by EVGA, don't forget...


But I believe there's a lot of value to having your own OC sw. Imagine you make the best card for OC, then in the product pages & world records set, the OC is achieved using, gulp, MSI afterburner?

I don't get why Unwinder is getting hate just for being "slow" to add features. Just "add" this, just "add" that - as though it can be done so easily. If its so easy, why didn't they do it from the beginning. Anyway, if say Sapphire Trixx has a problem, and it isn't fixed or updated to support their cards, then the hate should be towards Sapphire. Not Sapphire saying, oh go ask Wizzard. So they don't do that, neither should other companies.

If the program says Sapphire Trixx, its Sapphire to get the love/hate. If it says EVGA Precision, then EVGA to get the love/hate. Don't push the pressure to your third party devs, it should be transparent to the end users.


----------



## tout

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *misoonigiri*
> 
> But I believe there's a lot of value to having your own OC sw. Imagine you make the best card for OC, then in the product pages & world records set, the OC is achieved using, gulp, MSI afterburner?
> 
> I don't get why Unwinder is getting hate just for being "slow" to add features. Just "add" this, just "add" that - as though it can be done so easily. If its so easy, why didn't they do it from the beginning. Anyway, if say Sapphire Trixx has a problem, and it isn't fixed or updated to support their cards, then the hate should be towards Sapphire. Not Sapphire saying, oh go ask Wizzard. So they don't do that, neither should other companies.
> 
> If the program says Sapphire Trixx, its Sapphire to get the love/hate. If it says EVGA Precision, then EVGA to get the love/hate. Don't push the pressure to your third party devs, it should be transparent to the end users.


It would all have to fall to Unwinder because he is the owner of the software and the only person with the source code. So, no, EVGA in this case has nothing to do with it, They are just providing a front end type of UI for us to use. Unwinder is in control of RTSS, only he can add support for something like 64 bit as far as I know.

Anyways, all I ever used Afterburner and now Precision for was to monitor my temps and framerates in game. I was never in to the whole overclocking my graphics cards so I actually just use Nvidia Shadowplay features to track my framerates now and don't worry about my temps since my new cards are so cool.


----------



## Moragg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tout*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *misoonigiri*
> 
> But I believe there's a lot of value to having your own OC sw. Imagine you make the best card for OC, then in the product pages & world records set, the OC is achieved using, gulp, MSI afterburner?
> 
> I don't get why Unwinder is getting hate just for being "slow" to add features. Just "add" this, just "add" that - as though it can be done so easily. If its so easy, why didn't they do it from the beginning. Anyway, if say Sapphire Trixx has a problem, and it isn't fixed or updated to support their cards, then the hate should be towards Sapphire. Not Sapphire saying, oh go ask Wizzard. So they don't do that, neither should other companies.
> 
> If the program says Sapphire Trixx, its Sapphire to get the love/hate. If it says EVGA Precision, then EVGA to get the love/hate. Don't push the pressure to your third party devs, it should be transparent to the end users.
> 
> 
> 
> It would all have to fall to Unwinder because he is the owner of the software and the only person with the source code. So, no, EVGA in this case has nothing to do with it, They are just providing a front end type of UI for us to use. Unwinder is in control of RTSS, only he can add support for something like 64 bit as far as I know.
> 
> Anyways, all I ever used Afterburner and now Precision for was to monitor my temps and framerates in game. I was never in to the whole overclocking my graphics cards so I actually just use Nvidia Shadowplay features to track my framerates now and don't worry about my temps since my new cards are so cool.
Click to expand...

Actually the pressure is on EVGA to fund the additional features they want.


----------



## tout

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moragg*
> 
> Actually the pressure is on EVGA to fund the additional features they want.


Now it is, since they are severing ties but not in the context of our conversation.


----------



## HeadlessKnight

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtbiker033*
> 
> so many hypocrites, but at the end of the day using the software he created lol


This ^^. If you don't like him, then stop using his software, plain and simple. Hypocrisy in this thread is beyond the roof. Without Unwinder.. GPU overclockability wouldn't have reached the point that it reached today, if you don't like his software stop using it and stick to Nvidia/ AMD crap like Overdrive and Coolbits (Not to mention Nvidia doesn't even integrate an overclocking software in its new drivers)
He did the community a great service without a return. I do agree sometimes he overreacts in guru3d but most of the time from those rude ungrateful people who talk to him like he owe them something, and most of the time from those stupid people who don't read his guides and ask the same question again and again without searching or googling their issues.


----------



## Moragg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tout*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Moragg*
> 
> Actually the pressure is on EVGA to fund the additional features they want.
> 
> 
> 
> Now it is, since they are severing ties but not in the context of our conversation.
Click to expand...

No, EVGA should have paid Unwinder to add 64-bit support. They didn't pay, they didn't get the features. That's how the world works.


----------



## Silent Scone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeadlessKnight*
> 
> This ^^. If you don't like him, then stop using his software, plain and simple. Hypocrisy in this thread is beyond the roof. Without Unwinder.. GPU overclockability wouldn't have reached the point that it reached today, if you don't like his software stop using it and stick to Nvidia/ AMD crap like Overdrive and Coolbits (Not to mention Nvidia doesn't even integrate an overclocking software in its new drivers)
> He did the community a great service without a return. I do agree sometimes he overreacts in guru3d but most of the time from those rude ungrateful people who talk to him like he owe them something, and most of the time from those stupid people who don't read his guides and ask the same question again and again without searching or googling their issues.


Yet in the same breath people may not like EVGA given this bad press. Doesn't mean they have to stop using their products.

This is an example of how people don't differentiate between him and a company. It's easy to feel sorry for him without knowing all the details. If you look at his posts on Guru, it's blindingly obvious he had a grudge against both EVGA and Precision users well before they stopped paying him royalties.

In fact, given the things he's been saying, speaking hypothetically if I were EVGA from a PR stand point I'd want nothing to do with him either. Am I saying he deserves to get his work stolen _if_ that is what has happened here legally? No, of course not. But you can't say with a straight face that he's anything close to a Saint. I'm surprised they hadn't done him for slander before v15 was even close to release.


----------



## misoonigiri

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tout*
> 
> It would all have to fall to Unwinder because he is the owner of the software and the only person with the source code. So, no, EVGA in this case has nothing to do with it, They are just providing a front end type of UI for us to use. Unwinder is in control of RTSS, only he can add support for something like 64 bit as far as I know.


If you bought a Sammy TV, and one of its features wasn't updated, you should be asking Sammy and not them saying, oh go ask this person he has source code.

Or if companies come to you to license your brilliant code/feature in their name. But you have different agreements with each so one pays substantially more (their user love it), maybe some just a fraction, maybe some owe you money or have stopped the agreement. So are end users to expect the same for all, not knowing what agreement was made. Are they even justified to nag you instead of the companies?


----------



## Bridden

So, depite my past affiliation with EVGA, based purely on the claims made so far (seeing as no true evidence has been posted as far as code goes) I would have to side with unwinder. The Copying of the EULA definitely shows that there is some blatant infringing going on. However, I have honetly never read unwinder's posts before, and never known the kind of person he is... until now.

THIS is an example of the flawed logic unwinder uses. The more of his name that pops up, the more I see how this could be a claim, and nothing else.

I hope this turns out to be nothing more than him running his mouth, because he seems to do that... a LOT. Even when someone is simply asking questions, he retorts with insults and accusations.


----------



## fateswarm

Don't say "it's free so it doesn't profit". It's wrong. They profit via treating their customers and getting back the promotion of recognition.


----------



## provost

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *INCREDIBLEHULK*
> 
> Yeah, it sucks for him. Just one of those things he shouldn't pretend he didn't see coming.
> 
> Also when I wrote the law being vague, I meant in the sense of the law/statute itself is vague, for that reason there are the specific clauses to distinguish exactly what is used/enforced
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Even if the document isn't revised by a lawyer and you sign, many times it holds no weight when it hits a judge ( not always the case )
> 
> IE: wiretapping laws ( somewhat vague )
> Recording via phone
> Recording via voip
> Recording in public place
> 
> For the most part at least our community is not fooled about what is going on


I am not entirely certain what you mean by an agreement "not holding weight in front of the judge". May be for some made for TV small claims court realty shows, this may happen, or I guess theoretically speaking anything is possible when it comes to judges. But, this is how it works in the real world: If there is breach of contract, the injured party or plaintiff will file a compliant (suit) in the right jurisdiction. The complaint would outline all breaches, no good faith claims, etc. If the contract specifically prohibits legal action in favor of arbitration ( may be this is what you mean by certain clauses being enforceable above), then the defendant will file a motion to dismiss, and most likely the judge will grant such a motion. However, in absence of such limiting clauses (heavily negotiated in a contract, if present), judge would be hard pressed to grant the motion to dismiss, just in case there are facts that support the plaintiff's case. The whole process then moves to discovery, depositions, etc. This is where there is a potential of reputational risk for a company, as all correspondence, internal and external related to the claims in the complaint is subject to discovery. Nevertheless, it is a drawn out lengthy and expensive process, and this is why contracts disputes that make it to a complaint stage are usually between two companies that can afford the legal battle. Most, others tend to get settled out of court, unless you are talking about Gross negligence type class action suits.
Enough with the boring stuff...lol, now back on topic - yes, I agree, Uwinder probably expected Evga to sever their agreement at some point, after. the relationship had been so poisoned for reasons that we would never know, but its safe to assume to assume that these reasons all lead to the dispute around what Uwinder believed he should have been paid for his work and what Evga expected from him as per the strict interpretation of the contract (we have already gone over this issue) and paid for, again, as per the contract. It is doubtful that Evga blatantly breached the contract, as it would too foolish, from a legal standpoint (again assuming the contract had some legal teeth to begin with). However, one doesn't have to breach a contract to put the so called proverbial screws to the counter signing party of the contract, if you get my drift.







.
We don't know anything about the contract , except that there may be one. And, that such "may be contract" allows Evga to use Uwinder's services in exchange for some unknown monetary compensation. That's it.

I don't think that Uwinder was surprised by Evga severing its ties with him (I am just assuming), but rather to the extent that Evga used his work/ip to develop px15,, or so he claims. There are always two sides to the story, and I for one can't pass judgement based on limited information, regardless of my personal likeness of a company or dislike of an individual's personality.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtbiker033*
> 
> so many hypocrites, but at the end of the day using the software he created lol


You know, when I step back from it all, and ask the question what if we didn't have Uwinder' program to overclock Nvidia cards, ( and I have seven of these cards, in case any one is wondering.







. ) I would not be having as much fun just with the locked auto boost stuff that has become the standard now. It is easy to say someone else could have developed it, etc. but, if they could have, they would have. I have used PX extensively, but I have cone to prefer AB , as PX tends to be to more " hands off" and "auto" for my overclocking needs. It also tends to be more buggy (may be because it does not get regular updates - a circular argument, indeed.







). I don't use OSD for either PX or AB much, because it seems to affect my score when benching. However, OSD seems to be a nice feature otherwise.
In the end, I don't think there are any heroes and villains in this soap opera, and I for one am not prepared to publicly crucify an individual ( or a company for that matter), regardless of his personality defects, while I enjoy what he has created.


----------



## skupples

someone else would have stepped forward... Made an equal quality product? impossible to know, but the lack of competition comes from the level of saturation, not the "skill" needed in programming these tools.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> someone else would have stepped forward... Made an equal quality product? impossible to know, but the lack of competition comes from the level of saturation, not the "skill" needed in programming these tools.


It is harder than it looks ^.^

I have thought about taking a stab at it though. Another new project for me.


----------



## un-nefer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> It is harder than it looks ^.^


I'm sure it is harder than it looks, but that is not to say it wouldn't have been done by someone else if uniwinder had not stepped forward.

FYI: there have been opensource/gpl overclocking tools available for GPU and CPU overclocking in Linux for almost a decade.


----------



## Kimir

On the overclocking side only and Nvidia user there is nv-inspector that can be used, don't know if it was released before or after AB/PX tho.


----------



## SeanOMatic

eVGA is clearly lying about this being 100% developed in house. I've never had RivaTuner installed, yet look what library came with the new Precision X:

RTCore.dll

I think there were other DLL files, too, that are RivaTuner specific.


----------



## SeanOMatic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *djthrottleboi*
> 
> agreed this is a little much for freeware.


Branding is still the key here. eVGA gets their name out and increases brand recognition with this freeware. There are even gullible folks who think you NEED an eVGA card to use said software. It's important for eVGA to have the #1 OC utility for GPU's because it increases their value and recognition in the market.


----------



## error-id10t

Exactly the same could be said about AB, MSI sponsored.

Anyway, if there was no Unwinder creating tools well I actually for example wouldn't need it. We can all mod the BIOS to set clocks which still allows down-clocking/volting + AB doesn't even allow me to over-volt, I need to use another tool to do that created by a complete different person.


----------



## djthrottleboi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SeanOMatic*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *djthrottleboi*
> 
> agreed this is a little much for freeware.
> 
> 
> 
> Branding is still the key here. eVGA gets their name out and increases brand recognition with this freeware. There are even gullible folks who think you NEED an eVGA card to use said software. It's important for eVGA to have the #1 OC utility for GPU's because it increases their value and recognition in the market.
Click to expand...

agreed though msi gets the same treatment and msi has all the new functions working properly whereas evga is sitting with a basketball and a garbage can trying to figure out how to fix theirs. Thats why its all pointless as it could be said those are remnants and it could be said they did it with intent but there's nothing to complain about since it doesn't work.


----------



## SeanOMatic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *djthrottleboi*
> 
> agreed though msi gets the same treatment and msi has all the new functions working properly whereas evga is sitting with a basketball and a garbage can trying to figure out how to fix theirs. Thats why its all pointless as it could be said those are remnants and it could be said they did it with intent but there's nothing to complain about since it doesn't work.


MSI seems to have done one thing that eVGA didn't: Paid uwinder for his work and compensated him for developing new features, which eVGA decided to piggy back.


----------



## djthrottleboi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SeanOMatic*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *djthrottleboi*
> 
> agreed though msi gets the same treatment and msi has all the new functions working properly whereas evga is sitting with a basketball and a garbage can trying to figure out how to fix theirs. Thats why its all pointless as it could be said those are remnants and it could be said they did it with intent but there's nothing to complain about since it doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> MSI seems to have done one thing that eVGA didn't: Paid uwinder for his work and compensated him for developing new features, which eVGA decided to piggy back.
Click to expand...

my point regardless is that its freeware to us consumers an and even if evga did steal his stuff the way evga implemented it made it a hulk of crap and to be honest if it was my product i would be laughing like you really tried to steal my stuff and you blundered this bad!?!?!?!? so in the end its harmless because without the source they can't really implement it correctly.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kimir*
> 
> On the overclocking side only and Nvidia user there is nv-inspector that can be used, don't know if it was released before or after AB/PX tho.


Just a few things.

RTSS is what it is due to the in depth level of OSD reporting.

Dozens of overclocking utilities exist, & they all have the same functionality.

MSI-AB's recent fame is two fold. A.) *MSI finally paid Unwinder* enough to adapt to 64bit.exe & the back end allowing for above spec voltage control on Vanilla GK110 cards like OG titan & 780 (non Ti).


----------



## sugarhell

Msi paid unwinder for 64bit support


----------



## sticks435

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Just a few things.
> 
> RTSS is what it is due to the in depth level of OSD reporting.
> 
> Dozens of overclocking utilities exist, & they all have the same functionality.
> 
> MSI-AB's recent fame is two fold. A.) People finally convinced Unwinder to adapt to 64bit.exe & the back end allowing for *above spec voltage control on Vanilla GK110 cards like OG titan & 780 (non Ti)*.


Slightly off topic, but does this apply to the Classy too?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sticks435*
> 
> Slightly off topic, but does this apply to the Classy too?


Classy has its own voltage controller software.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Maybe this is a big leap in assumptions but it seems like they'd be able to afford to pay for whatever software update from him. I mean, he was already working on it. Isn't that cheaper than having "in house" software devs re-do it "100%"?


----------



## skupples

MSI obviously offered him more.


----------



## SeanOMatic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> MSI obviously offered him more.


More like, eVGA didn't want to offer him anything and decided to do their own thing...but instead they did his thing and just said it was their own thing. It seems like eVGA weren't happy with paying and decided to do it 'in house'. Unless, uwinder had an exclusivity agreement with MSI?


----------



## skupples

@EVGA-JacobF he be lurkin!


----------



## SeanOMatic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @EVGA-JacobF he be lurkin!


Nice, I used to talk to Jacob a LOT when I worked in OCZ's Dev Department. We worked together on technical issues and such and my feeling was that he always had his hands full. He's a good guy.

Jacob, if you see this, hit me up. Let's talk.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *provost*
> 
> I am not entirely certain what you mean by an agreement "not holding weight in front of the judge". May be for some made for TV small claims court realty shows, this may happen, or I guess theoretically speaking anything is possible when it comes to judges. But, this is how it works in the real world: If there is breach of contract, the injured party or plaintiff will file a compliant (suit) in the right jurisdiction. The complaint would outline all breaches, no good faith claims, etc. If the contract specifically prohibits legal action in favor of arbitration ( may be this is what you mean by certain clauses being enforceable above), then the defendant will file a motion to dismiss, and most likely the judge will grant such a motion. However, in absence of such limiting clauses (heavily negotiated in a contract, if present), judge would be hard pressed to grant the motion to dismiss, just in case there are facts that support the plaintiff's case. The whole process then moves to discovery, depositions, etc. This is where there is a potential of reputational risk for a company, as all correspondence, internal and external related to the claims in the complaint is subject to discovery. Nevertheless, it is a drawn out lengthy and expensive process, and this is why contracts disputes that make it to a complaint stage are usually between two companies that can afford the legal battle. Most, others tend to get settled out of court, unless you are talking about Gross negligence type class action suits.
> Enough with the boring stuff...lol, now back on topic - yes, I agree, Uwinder probably expected Evga to sever their agreement at some point, after. the relationship had been so poisoned for reasons that we would never know, but its safe to assume to assume that these reasons all lead to the dispute around what Uwinder believed he should have been paid for his work and what Evga expected from him as per the strict interpretation of the contract (we have already gone over this issue) and paid for, again, as per the contract. It is doubtful that Evga blatantly breached the contract, as it would too foolish, from a legal standpoint (again assuming the contract had some legal teeth to begin with). However, one doesn't have to breach a contract to put the so called proverbial screws to the counter signing party of the contract, if you get my drift.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> We don't know anything about the contract , except that there may be one. And, that such "may be contract" allows Evga to use Uwinder's services in exchange for some unknown monetary compensation. That's it.
> 
> I don't think that Uwinder was surprised by Evga severing its ties with him (I am just assuming), but rather to the extent that Evga used his work/ip to develop px15,, or so he claims. There are always two sides to the story, and I for one can't pass judgement based on limited information, regardless of my personal likeness of a company or dislike of an individual's personality.
> You know, when I step back from it all, and ask the question what if we didn't have Uwinder' program to overclock Nvidia cards, ( and I have seven of these cards, in case any one is wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . ) I would not be having as much fun just with the locked auto boost stuff that has become the standard now. It is easy to say someone else could have developed it, etc. but, if they could have, they would have. I have used PX extensively, but I have cone to prefer AB , as PX tends to be to more " hands off" and "auto" for my overclocking needs. It also tends to be more buggy (may be because it does not get regular updates - a circular argument, indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). I don't use OSD for either PX or AB much, because it seems to affect my score when benching. However, OSD seems to be a nice feature otherwise.
> In the end, I don't think there are any heroes and villains in this soap opera, and I for one am not prepared to publicly crucify an individual ( or a company for that matter), regardless of his personality defects, while I enjoy what he has created.


That was quite some thorough explanation of the scenario we know could happen, it was easier for me to post a vague scenario to summarize a possible situation









My point was off of a clause being very vague or unethical with grounds for a judge to completely breach the contract and nothing else in the contract matter.
IE: a contract for a Loan with 4000% apr interest.

You did explain everything out, sure I know there is a legal process, but was trying to just summarize a possible outcome. Trust me, I know first hand







even scheduling appointments between lawyers before all of that can mess burn through months of times before paperwork ever sees a court









Indeed we have no idea about anything, but it's safe to assume EVGA had the upper hand and Unwinder was unhappy about the situation. In the end, consumers pay the price right?


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SeanOMatic*
> 
> Branding is still the key here. eVGA gets their name out and increases brand recognition with this freeware. There are even gullible folks who think you NEED an eVGA card to use said software. It's important for eVGA to have the #1 OC utility for GPU's because it increases their value and recognition in the market.


Well from 2008 until December 2013 they WERE paying Unwinder for usage of his code (while having designed the GUI for Precision completely in-house). So the only possible issue would be with the very last version of Precision (Precision X 15) which is the ONLY version that they haven't directly paid for usage of and its now been pulled from their site. Not really anything else to say at this point, any usage of previous versions of Precision is totally legit as EVGA DID pay for its licensing...


----------



## sticks435

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Classy has its own voltage controller software.


Yeah, I've used it. Just figured if I could use one less program it would be better ya know?


----------



## provost

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *INCREDIBLEHULK*
> 
> That was quite some thorough explanation of the scenario we know could happen, it was easier for me to post a vague scenario to summarize a possible situation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point was off of a clause being very vague or unethical with grounds for a judge to completely breach the contract and nothing else in the contract matter.
> IE: a contract for a Loan with 4000% apr interest.
> 
> You did explain everything out, sure I know there is a legal process, but was trying to just summarize a possible outcome. Trust me, I know first hand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> even scheduling appointments between lawyers before all of that can mess burn through months of times before paperwork ever sees a court
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed we have no idea about anything, but it's safe to assume EVGA had the upper hand and Unwinder was unhappy about the situation. In the end, consumers pay the price right?


Cool.









Can't really comment on who had the upper hand without knowing all the facts, but litigation does add to cost of doing business, and this is why it's best to settle out of court, if possible, as the only ones who really gain from litigation are the lawyers...lol

If your lawyers are taking months to schedule, you may need to get better lawyers.


----------



## skupples

Litigation would show that a viable case *may* actually exist, which doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## SeanOMatic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> Well from 2008 until December 2013 they WERE paying Unwinder for usage of his code (while having designed the GUI for Precision completely in-house). So the only possible issue would be with the very last version of Precision (Precision X 15) which is the ONLY version that they haven't directly paid for usage of and its now been pulled from their site. Not really anything else to say at this point, any usage of previous versions of Precision is totally legit as EVGA DID pay for its licensing...


Right, so eVGA released software and lied about it being based on all-new code and essentially bilked out on licensing fees. There is Rivatuner DLL's in the new eVGA Precision-X. I am glad eVGA paid for licensing up until the end of the year, but what about now? They released software saying it was there's and they coded it and it was very obviously not 100% true. The fact is, they used old code and DLL's from RivaTuner and they weren't licensed.


----------



## INCREDIBLEHULK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *provost*
> 
> Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't really comment on who had the upper hand without knowing all the facts, but litigation does add to cost of doing business, and this is why it's best to settle out of court, if possible, as the only ones who really gain from litigation are the lawyers...lol
> 
> If your lawyers are taking months to schedule, you may need to get better lawyers.


Only reason I assumed EVGA has the upper hand is because if there was a case to be made, we would be hearing about something else other than unwinder internet/website/blog gossip







This may change in the near future though. Or will it!

I did not like the joke at the end























You seemed to have very good knowledge of how courts proceedings work







so I assumed you understand my last statement. I might have not written it proper?

I am sure you are aware that lawyers like to burn other lawyers time. If it is something being done against you, lawyers know how to gain time in any situation







There is always a way to push things back, the reason always varies.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SeanOMatic*
> 
> Right, so eVGA released software and lied about it being based on all-new code and essentially bilked out on licensing fees. There is Rivatuner DLL's in the new eVGA Precision-X. I am glad eVGA paid for licensing up until the end of the year, but what about now? They released software saying it was there's and they coded it and it was very obviously not 100% true. The fact is, they used old code and DLL's from RivaTuner and they weren't licensed.


And those dll's do WHAT exactly? You don't know because no one apparently does. Regardless, Precision X 15 has been pulled so its a nonstarter anyway. Likely those dll's are just inert or are in there to interface with Nvidia's drivers and not part of the actual OCiing utility. Either way, you can't say that EVGA did anything wrong prior to Precision 15 as the EVGA haters some people were attempting to do...


----------



## SeanOMatic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> And those dll's do WHAT exactly? You don't know because no one apparently does. Regardless, Precision X 15 has been pulled so its a nonstarter anyway. Likely those dll's are just inert or are in there to interface with Nvidia's drivers and not part of the actual OCiing utility. Either way, you can't say that EVGA did anything wrong prior to Precision 15 as the EVGA haters some people were attempting to do...


Were those DLL's developed by eVGA, as they said? Why is 100% eVGA software referencing RivaTuner so much, beyond even the GUI being 100% similar?

Sad, I am not an eVGA hater. I actually like Jacob and have used their products in the past (P55 Classified)


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

The GUI was developed entirely by EVGA. I don't know what the dll's do but neither does anybody else apparently. Obviously they refer to RTSS and that is enough to make the 100% claim false I agree but my thing is that the criticism is exaggerated, not entirely unfounded. Its moot though because the utility has been pulled...


----------



## King4x4

I am reading the thread and I always see this phrase "gui was done by EVGA completely".

Good to them. Really good to them being genuine and designing their own unique UI.

How about the tools under that GUI... is it theirs or not? If it is then there is nothing to see... if it is not... Thats like stealing a BMW engine and putting it in a slick Mercedz bonnet and say you did it completely in house.

also about the tool being pulled... Damge is done... nothing to do about it.


----------



## provost

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *INCREDIBLEHULK*
> 
> Only reason I assumed EVGA has the upper hand is because if there was a case to be made, we would be hearing about something else other than unwinder internet/website/blog gossip
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This may change in the near future though. Or will it!
> 
> I did not like the joke at the end
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seemed to have very good knowledge of how courts proceedings work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so I assumed you understand my last statement. I might have not written it proper?
> 
> I am sure you are aware that lawyers like to burn other lawyers time. If it is something being done against you, lawyers know how to gain time in any situation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is always a way to push things back, the reason always varies.


I got your statement, but since paying the lawyers is something that no one likes do, pushing things back only means more money out of the client's pocket. This should probably tell you which side I am on when it comes lawyers.








But, if you are going to lawyer up make sure you get the loudest bulldogs in your corner, and in my experience no one barks louder than the breed in NY.








You don't want the biting ones, since the client should be the one doing the biting, metaphorically speaking of course.
I only know of legal process out of necessity (or as a necessary evil.







).

My point was that whatever dispute Evga and Uwinder may have, I hope that it does not go to court, as lawyers are the only ones who win in that scenario. There is nothing that cooler heads can't accomplish (out of court) compared what can be achieved through a protracted and expensive unnecessary litigation process. Only sometime litigation is necessary to gain strategic advantage.


----------



## tout

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVGA-JacobF*
> 
> Important announcement:


Quote:


> We understand that there is a lot of confusion and misinformation in the internet community about Guru3D's article titled "Did EVGA just Steal the Rivatuner RTSS design concept into PrecisionX 15 ?". We would like to clarify the following:
> 
> 1. Precision's original main GUI concept was designed and provided to the community by EVGA in 2008.
> 2. The RivaTuner control panel and backend code in prior versions of Precision were developed and is owned by the RivaTuner developer. EVGA does not own the source code for any RivaTuner code. EVGA paid for the development and distribution rights per the contract.
> 3. The new EVGA PrecisionX 15 was coded from scratch by EVGA without copying any of the RivaTuner code.
> 4. Both RivaTuner and EVGA PrecisionX 15 make use of the NVIDIA NVAPI to communicate with NVIDIA graphics cards and drivers, which is owned and provided by NVIDIA.
> 
> Some people mentioned that the file structure in EVGA PrecisionX 15 is similar to the previous version of Precision. During development, we referenced the USF skin format (which has been published by RivaTuner developer at Guru3D forums in 2009 http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=3316361&postcount=8 to allow the community to create their own skins). The above mentioned feature would make it simple to allow users to recompile any previous skins to work with the new version of PrecisionX 15. However, we do understand the confusion caused by trying to maintain this feature and we will change it in the next release.
> 
> Next, it was also mentioned that the code contains text references (not code) to the word "RivaTuner" and the word "RTTSH.dll", a RivaTuner file. This actually came from the user interface localization / help (wording). During the original Precision development, EVGA worked with several outside firms to help translate user interface help files into various languages, unfortunately this is a misprint in the translation files and will be fixed. Again, no RivaTuner code was ever used in EVGA PrecisionX 15. We apologize to the RivaTuner developer for this error.
> 
> Originally our goal was to add more features such as 64bit OSD, Steam, updated voltage controls, and more to a new version without changing the Precision user's experience that they were already familiar with. Unfortunately, the "similarities" between the two programs have led people to believe that EVGA might have copied the code and design from RivaTuner, which is not the case. Given the circumstances, in order to remove any questions and to further differentiate it visually from the previous versions of EVGA Precision, EVGA has decided to listen to the community and suspend the downloading of EVGA PrecisionX 15 temporarily while these updates are being implemented.
> 
> Please remember, Precision was and is built for the community and without the community EVGA Precision and many other overclocking utilities would not be where they are today. It is EVGA's commitment to continue investing in the development of PrecisionX by adding the features the community asks for while providing it free of charge!
> 
> Thank You,
> EVGA


Just since most people don't read through the whole thread and throw their 2 cents in without getting any real info.


----------



## Strat79

Unwinder has dropped it so why can't everyone else? Until and if he decides to take it any further than a forum post, I see no reason to debate it. I feel they either worked something out discreetly or he realized he didn't have either enough proof or even a case at all.


----------



## provost

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Classy has its own voltage controller software.


Seems like you walked into a rhetorical trap...lol

What I like about AB is that provides more flexibility for volt control for ref GK110 and other ref cards (released prior to Titan black and Ti series) for overclocking (at your own risk caveat of course). To my knowledge, no other overclocking tool can do this.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Strat79*
> 
> Unwinder has dropped it so why can't everyone else? Until and if he decides to take it any further than a forum post, I see no reason to debate it. I feel they either worked something out discreetly or he realized he didn't have either enough proof or even a case at all.


probably because he doesn't have a case.

You don't just drop an issue that is supposedly as important & theft worthy as this unless you have no case.

What I mean to say is. If unwinder has truly dropped this, it is because he had no case, thus had to drop it to prevent a slander lawsuit from EVGA.


----------



## wholeeo

He threw it all out in the open and now wants people to just drop it.


----------



## StarCitizenGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tout*
> 
> Just since most people don't read through the whole thread and throw their 2 cents in without getting any real info.


This. So much this.

Also, nice Cutlass my friend







Love, Love, Love my Cutties


----------

