# Arctic P12 and P120 / P14 and P140 "Pressure Optimized" Fans : reviews/discussion thread



## AlphaC

The specs vs the prior gen F12 / F14 and Bionix:

Arctic page: https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/products/cooling/case-fan/p-fans.html

P12 PWM specs: https://gzhls.at/blob/ldb/2/c/1/6/417d01d706af1e5b6b69450185948da82423.pdf
* 200 to 1800 RPM , 0dB mode at < 5% PWM
* 56.3CFM @ 1800RPM with 2.2mm H2O static pressure --- F12 PWM claimed 53 CFM at 1350RPM while BioniX F120 claimed 69 CFM @ 1800RPM
* 0.3 Sone @1,800 RPM --- F12 PWM claimed 0.3 Sone @ 1350RPM ; BioniX F120 claimed 0.5 Sone @ 1800RPM
* 0.96W @ 1800RPM
* fluid dynamic bearing
* 10 year warranty


P14 PWM specs: https://gzhls.at/blob/ldb/a/7/a/e/c3a5f3ffa2f7a08d4fd4afc05f38dc2f42ca.pdf
* 200 to 1700RPM , 0dB mode at <5% PWM
* 72.8CFM @ 1700RPM with 2.4mm H2O static pressure --- F14 PWM claimed 74 CFM while BioniX F140 claimed 104 [email protected] 1800RPM
* 0.3 Sone @ 1700 RPM --- F14 PWM claimed 0.3 [email protected] 1350 RPM ; BioniX claimed 0.6 Sone @ 1800RPM
* 1.44W at 1700RPM
* fluid dynamic bearing
* 10 year warranty


BioniX P120: https://gzhls.at/blob/ldb/7/9/8/8/8d3181231e8fa7a7e7a53ec4acc4b7630b75.pdf
* 200-2100RPM , 0dB Mode < 5% PWM
* 67.56 CFM , 2.75mm H2O static pressure
* 1.56W
* 0.45 Sone @ 2100RPM
* fluid dynamic bearing
* 10 year warranty

BioniX P140: https://gzhls.at/blob/ldb/5/3/5/7/04c2807e6b804b0b4a7be06cfc6b683980c3.pdf
* 200 - 1950 RPM , 0dB mode < 5% PWM
* 77.6CFM @1950RPM , 2.85mm H2O static pressure
* 1.8W @ 1950RPM
* 0.45 Sone @ 1950RPM
* fluid dynamic bearing
* 10 year warranty


edit: found reviews


https://www.bitsandchips.it/9-hardware/10938-arctic-p14-e-p120
Bionix P120 about as noisy as Noctua's NF-A12x25 but pushing more air than Coolermaster Masterfan Pro and within a degree or two of Noctua NF-A12x25
Results suggest it is terrible for push pull though


https://www.modding.fr/test-ventilateurs-arctic-bionix-p120-p140-et-p14/5/
Another review with it performing on par with NF-A12x25 as well as SilentWings 3


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## The Pook

If they're out - I can't find them for sale anywhere. They're not on Arctic's site and Google doesn't turn up anything either.


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## kd5151

Give it some time.


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## 8051

Those static pressure ratings aren't much to brag about. My slowest speed fan, a SanAce 140x38mm 109P1412M101 produces almost twice the static pressure of these fans at 1900 RPM and 33% more CFM.


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## The Pook

8051 said:


> Those static pressure ratings aren't much to brag about. My slowest speed fan, a SanAce 140x38mm 109P1412M101 produces almost twice the static pressure of these fans at 1900 RPM and 33% more CFM.



Well yeah... it's a 38 mm fan and you're comparing it against 25/27 mm fans.


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## 8051

The Pook said:


> Well yeah... it's a 38 mm fan and you're comparing it against 25/27 mm fans.


But the SanAce doesn't brag about being a "pressure optimized" fan.


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## The Pook

8051 said:


> But the SanAce doesn't brag about being a "pressure optimized" fan.



Good for them? Assuming Arctic's claimed specs are accurate they look fairly impressive especially if they carry the same price tag as their current Arctic fan lineup. 

If you compare any 25mm fan to a 38 or even 32mm fan they're all going to look bad.


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## doyll

What The Pook said. :thumb:

It's really not fair to compare 25mm thick fans to 38 mm thick fans. It's like comparing a fan that runs 1200rpm fan to one that runs 2500rpm and saying the 2500rpm fan has much higher pressure rating. If we were to test the 2500rpm fan's static pressure at 1200rpm it will likely be very similar to that of the 1200rpm fan .. but we can't even do an comparison of 38mm thick fanb to 25mm thick fan.

Edit; 
Got tired of hearing "they have a 10 year warranty" so looked up warranty to see ifit was any good .. and basically it's not worth much, if anything.

While some love their Arctic P fans some are having problems. and some are going bad after less than 2 years.

Now we get people saying "Arctic P has a 10 year warranty". Well that 10 year warranty depreciated 10% per year based on original purchase price, which is without VAT. At 10% per year a fan that cost £5.00 minus VAT is £4.00 and if it goes bad in 5 years at 10% per year warranty is£2.00. And if Arctic wants fan returned to verify defect with their main offices in Germany it will cost more post than £5.00 original price to send it in.

Here are a few quotes out of Arctic warranty:


> If there are any defects in materials or workmanship in your Arctic product during the warranty period, Arctic will remedy these defects at its own expense by repairing or supplying new or refurbished parts. Arctic has the right to choose the means of remedying the defect. In individual cases, due to the constantly advancing technology, the repair or replacement of the product may result in disproportionate costs for Arctic. In this case, Arctic is entitled to refund the fair value of the product instead of repairing or replacing it. Arctic will calculate the fair value by taking into account the objective nature of the product. The fair value will be at least the amount of the purchase price, less 10% at the end of each year after delivery. For example, at the end of the third year after delivery, the fair value will be at least the amount of the purchase price, less 30%.





> Arctic can only grant claims under this warranty if you send the product along with the original receipt/original proof of purchase showing the date of purchase and the seller to the location specified by Customer Service (for example, to a repair center). The product must be properly packaged to avoid damage during shipping.
> 
> You are responsible for the cost of returning the device and Arctic will pay for the cost of sending the repaired or replaced device to you.


https://www.arctic.ac/en/warranty/

Hopefully the above will show people how little this "10 year warranty" is really worth.


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## JackCY

The Pook said:


> If they're out - I can't find them for sale anywhere. They're not on Arctic's site and Google doesn't turn up anything either.


https://www.arctic.ac/eu_en/products/cooling/case-fan.html

They've been there around a month now? Saw them there weeks ago.

All the manufacturer air and noise specs are to be taken with a bucket of salt.
There are various variants of this fan beyond what is in OP, check the manufacturer site.
Are they good fans? Who knows, someone gotta compare them at equal conditions to other fans and then factor in price. Usually Arctic fans are pretty good bang 4 buck.

In shops ready to buy they are listed at around 5-6 EUR for 140mm variants, with VAT and free shipped right now, in stock.
Elsewhere in EU even a pack of 5 costs 30 EUR = 5 EUR a piece with VAT (often around 20% in EU).


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## The Pook

JackCY said:


> https://www.arctic.ac/eu_en/products/cooling/case-fan.html
> 
> They've been there around a month now? Saw them there weeks ago.


F8/F9/F12/F14, no P anything.


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## doyll

The Pook said:


> F8/F9/F12/F14, no P anything.


Arctic UK has 12 of them listed .. as in 12 different variants in P series fans. 
https://www.arctic.ac/uk_en/products/cooling/case-fan/p-fans.html

Also Arctic EU has them listed.
https://www.arctic.ac/eu_en/products/cooling/case-fan.html

It's possible your browser or Arctic is re-directing you to sites in our area instead of all sites.


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## JackCY

The Pook said:


> F8/F9/F12/F14, no P anything.


You're probably browsing a different website and not knowing. Such as some outdated US variant of their site due to auto redirect where new products will be available later because US sucks to import to.

https://www.arctic.ac/eu_en/p14.html

https://geizhals.eu/?fs=arctic+p14&in=

https://www.heureka.cz/?h[fraze]=arctic+p14&min=&max=&o=3

Even Amazon has them for sell for 26 days now according to tracking but according to Amazon for 34 days already: https://www.amazon.de/Arctic-P14-5er-Pack-Gehäuselüfter/dp/B07HC9ZWDN/


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## The Pook

:sad-smile


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## doyll

The Pook said:


> :sad-smile


:helpingha


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## orlfman

I saw a listing for them on Amazon though they either say temporary out of stock or in stock / ships in 1 to 3 months.


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## Redwoodz

8051 said:


> Those static pressure ratings aren't much to brag about. My slowest speed fan, a SanAce 140x38mm 109P1412M101 produces almost twice the static pressure of these fans at 1900 RPM and 33% more CFM.



Might as well go all in- https://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=FAN-BG1411#


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## 8051

doyll said:


> What The Pook said. :thumb:
> 
> It's really not fair to compare 25mm thick fans to 38 mm thick fans. It's like comparing a fan that runs 1200rpm fan to one that runs 2500rpm and saying the 2500rpm fan has much higher pressure rating. If we were to test the 2500rpm fan's static pressure at 1200rpm it will likely be very similar to that of the 1200rpm fan .. but we can't even do an comparison of 38mm thick fanb to 25mm thick fan.


Then stop claiming its "pressure optimised".


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## The Pook

8051 said:


> Then stop claiming its "pressure optimised".



Why is it so hard to understand that you can optimize a 25mm fan and that it doesn't mean it's better than a 32/38mm? 

People modify their Honda's all the time and make them fast, but I don't think anyone thinks they're faster than a Zonda.


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## doyll

8051 said:


> Then stop claiming its "pressure optimised".


I think you have people mixed up here mate. I've not said anything is 'pressure optimized.'


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## 8051

doyll said:


> I think you have people mixed up here mate. I've not said anything is 'pressure optimized.'


Arctic claims it -- and it's nothing but marketing. The static pressure ratings on these fans are anemic. I'd imagine any restriction in the exhaust or intake path of these fans would result in a large loss in CFM.

I won't be giving up my SanAce 140x38mm for any of these "pressure optimised" fans.


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## kd5151

Keep in mind if the 5 packs are relatively cheap like the F14's. Then we might have new value king on our hands. 

On the other hand. Looking at the design. Seems similar to something cooler master has. A quick google search and you'll know what I'm talking about.


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## doyll

8051 said:


> Arctic claims it -- and it's nothing but marketing. The static pressure ratings on these fans are anemic. I'd imagine any restriction in the exhaust or intake path of these fans would result in a large loss in CFM.
> 
> I won't be giving up my SanAce 140x38mm for any of these "pressure optimised" fans.


How do you know the static pressure ratings are 'anemic'? 
Have you actually tested any of these fans to see what their static pressure actually is? 

Of course any restriction to airflow will result is much lower airflow than the specs., especially if not running fan at full speed. Specified airflow is unrestricted flow .. so unless we are using fan running at full speed blowing air around a room we will never be getting full airflow. Even at full speed with your 

SanAce I'm guessing when mounted in your case it's flowing 80-85% of it's rated CFM at full speed .. because the way SanAce gets it's CFM and mm H2O rating is the same way all these other fan companies get theirs .. although some to cheat a little by artificially 'balancing' the airflow to be identical on both sides of fan when in actual use the intake side will be ever so slightly lower pressure than the exhaust side.


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## 8051

doyll said:


> How do you know the static pressure ratings are 'anemic'?
> Have you actually tested any of these fans to see what their static pressure actually is?
> 
> Of course any restriction to airflow will result is much lower airflow than the specs., especially if not running fan at full speed. Specified airflow is unrestricted flow .. so unless we are using fan running at full speed blowing air around a room we will never be getting full airflow. Even at full speed with your
> 
> SanAce I'm guessing when mounted in your case it's flowing 80-85% of it's rated CFM at full speed .. because the way SanAce gets it's CFM and mm H2O rating is the same way all these other fan companies get theirs .. although some to cheat a little by artificially 'balancing' the airflow to be identical on both sides of fan when in actual use the intake side will be ever so slightly lower pressure than the exhaust side.


Arctic posted the specs on their fans.

SanAce publishes the methods by which they measure their fans specifications here:
https://www.sanyodenki.com/archive/document/product/cooling/technical_material_en.pdf

Please tell me specifically how they're "cheating".


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## doyll

8051 said:


> Arctic posted the specs on their fans.
> 
> SanAce publishes the methods by which they measure their fans specifications here:
> https://www.sanyodenki.com/archive/document/product/cooling/technical_material_en.pdf
> 
> Please tell me specifically how they're "cheating".


Could you please give me the link to Arctic F series fans, specs static pressure rating specs? I can't seem to find it. I find 2.85mm H2O static pressure @ 1950rpm for Bionix 140mm and P14 is 2.4mm H2O @ 1700rpm, but an't find static pressure rating of any F series. 2.85mm H2O and 2.4mm H2O are not 'anemic' to me .. even 1/2 of those ratings while not great is not really 'anemic'.

I think you are misunderstanding what I posted. I did not say SanAce is cheating, I said some fan companies cheat the way they gather data. 

Last half of last sentence in my posts reads 
_"although some to cheat a little by artificially 'balancing' the airflow to be identical on both sides of fan when in actual use the intake side will be ever so slightly lower pressure than the exhaust side"_​The third word 'to' should be 'do', but the key word is 'some' as in 'some fan companies'.


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## deepor

I found the perhaps first test review of these new fans, but it's in German:

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-serie-verspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html

The review setup seems to be pretty good the way I understand it. There's photos about what stuff they used on page four.

The fans then seem to be pretty good fans. The P14 with its price should be a good choice for anyone, the "Bionix" version maybe not. Here where I am the Silent Wings 3 High Speed are the same price as those Bionix P140 right now. The P14 are about half the price, and there's 5-packs where a single fans is getting kind of close to just a third of the price.


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## AlphaC

I had updated the first post with 2 reviews I found earlier 
edit: as far as pricing goes what I've seen on Amazon makes it only compelling in a 5 pack.


5 pack of P12 is $31 / €28
Cheapest P12 for single fan ~$12 / €6
Bionix P120 = $16
P14 ~ $13 / €8 
Bionix P140 ~€18
5 pack of P14 = €41


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## deepor

Oh, I didn't look at the first post. An edit perhaps doesn't pop up in the thread subscriptions, only new posts?


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## doyll

deepor said:


> I found the perhaps first test review of these new fans, but it's in German:
> 
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-serie-verspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html
> 
> The review setup seems to be pretty good the way I understand it. There's photos about what stuff they used on page four.
> 
> The fans then seem to be pretty good fans. The P14 with its price should be a good choice for anyone, the "Bionix" version maybe not. Here where I am the Silent Wings 3 High Speed are the same price as those Bionix P140 right now. The P14 are about half the price, and there's 5-packs where a single fans is getting kind of close to just a third of the price.


Very interesting bit of testing. Thanks for posting the link. :thumb:

While the full speed, free airflow, grill, grill & filter and H5 flow rates and db data tells us little. But the 1000rpm radiator flow is very helpful showing use Arctic P series are as good as NF-A14 and ML140 with only Silent Wings 3 having better airflow (which many of us already know is true). But when I look at the sound pressure levels on radiator at 1000rpm and see Silent Wings 3 being 7dB louder than Arctic P series I started scratching my head and wondering what is going on here. Silent Wings 3 also has significantly higher airflow I'm not saying it isn't true, it does give me cause to wonder. I would be much less skeptical so I can understand noise level being somewhat higher too .. and if the difference was 2, 3 or even 4dB difference it would seem possible. But Silent Wings 3 being 7db louder on radiator at 1000rpm makes me wonder. Maybe they made a mistake in or their test equipment gave them a duff sound reading for P series and/or SW3, or maybe it's because SW3 is flowing 12m3/h more air and that is the cause, I don't know, .. but their 7dB difference between them does make me wonder.

I wish we had performance comparison of fans at same cfm airflow instead of just fan speed. That would give us a much better performance comparison than fixed fan speed .. but it's also more work for reviewer ...


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## AlphaC

Found more reviews


https://www.allround-pc.com/artikel...reezer-33-esports-one-mit-bionix-p120-luefter


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## Ricwin

Whats the verdict on these fans? I'm planning to replace the mismatch of fans in my case with all the same model and noticed the Arctic P12's are available in packs of five for £15 for 3 pin, or £25 for PWM PST. 
The PST version looks particularly useful to reduce cable clutter.


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## The Pook

Curious myself, they hit Amazon/Newegg in the US recently and I've been considering grabbing them too. The specs almost seem too good to be true considering the price and I haven't found any reviews of them doing actual tests with CFM/dBA/SP instead of them opening the box and say "oh wow so good."


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## Brightmist

How's the sound profile on these?

SW3s might look noisy on the sound meter but they actually sound really nice.


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## doyll

Brightmist said:


> How's the sound profile on these?
> 
> SW3s might look noisy on the sound meter but they actually sound really nice.


You are comparing be quiet! Silent Wings 3 fans costing $20-30 a fan to Arctic P series costing $3-7 a fan .. that's like trying to compare a Rolls Royce or Bentley to a Hyundai or Skoda.


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## Brightmist

Tech gets cheaper by day so I don't see an issue. These fans don't cost that too much to manufacture anyway.


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## The Pook

Brightmist said:


> Tech gets cheaper by day so I don't see an issue.



Tell that to NVIDIA


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## 8051

doyll said:


> Could you please give me the link to Arctic F series fans, specs static pressure rating specs? I can't seem to find it. I find 2.85mm H2O static pressure @ 1950rpm for Bionix 140mm and P14 is 2.4mm H2O @ 1700rpm, but an't find static pressure rating of any F series. 2.85mm H2O and 2.4mm H2O are not 'anemic' to me .. even 1/2 of those ratings while not great is not really 'anemic'.
> 
> I think you are misunderstanding what I posted. I did not say SanAce is cheating, I said some fan companies cheat the way they gather data.
> 
> Last half of last sentence in my posts reads


You implied the cheating included SanAce. 

Why don't we get to see the methodology by which Arctic rates their fans? Or Noctua for that matter?


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## doyll

8051 said:


> You implied the cheating included SanAce.
> 
> Why don't we get to see the methodology by which Arctic rates their fans? Or Noctua for that matter?


Enough with your trolling. This is 2nd time you've trolled with near identical post. First time was post #23 with 
"_Please tell me specifically how they're "cheating_."​
I replied in post #24 saying
"I think you are misunderstanding what I posted. I did not say SanAce is cheating, I said some fan companies cheat the way they gather data. 

Last half of last sentence in my posts reads 
_"although some to cheat a little by artificially 'balancing' the airflow to be identical on both sides of fan when in actual use the intake side will be ever so slightly lower pressure than the exhaust side"_​The third word 'to' should be 'do', but the key word is 'some' as in 'some fan companies'."​
.


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## Jspinks020

Or the F12.


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## doyll

Jspinks020 said:


> Or the F12.


While Arctic F series are lower pressure rated than Arctic P series they still have good enough pressure to overcome the resistance of grills and filters used in most cases .. as well as on coolers and even some radiators. Hardware.FR tested Arctic F14 PWM way back in February 2013 with graph of free airflow and through radiator. 









They have an extensive group of fans tested under same conditions for comparison by clicking & hi-lighting the fans you want to compare from list. There is also selection at top for free airflow and airflow through radiator. While it is old and missing many of the newer fans we now have available it does have many that are still considered some of the best available.
https://www.hardware.fr/articles/886-26/recapitulatif-db-a-vs-cfm.html#


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## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> While Arctic F series are lower pressure rated than Arctic P series they still have good enough pressure to overcome the resistance of grills and filters used in most cases .. as well as on coolers and even some radiators. Hardware.FR tested Arctic F14 PWM way back in February 2013 with graph of free airflow and through radiator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have an extensive group of fans tested under same conditions for comparison by clicking & hi-lighting the fans you want to compare from list. There is also selection at top for free airflow and airflow through radiator. While it is old and missing many of the newer fans we now have available it does have many that are still considered some of the best available.
> https://www.hardware.fr/articles/886-26/recapitulatif-db-a-vs-cfm.html#


The Gelid Wing 14 has the craziest graph I have ever seen. Actually curls back, making more noise with less airflow as it increases in speed.


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## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> The Gelid Wing 14 has the craziest graph I have ever seen. Actually curls back, making more noise with less airflow as it increases in speed.


I'm going to assume some sort of glitch in data or in graphing on that one. If you switch the graph to 'sur radiateur' (through radiator) the graph line is more stable. Some of their graph spikes are way beyond the realm of even being possible.  
Some of the other fans' graph lines spike sporadically as well, so while not the most accurate collection of data at least it's much better than most fan testing we see, .. and definitely way better than other sources were back when these were done.. I try to look at what graph would be without the weird occasional spikes.


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## 8051

doyll said:


> Enough with your trolling. This is 2nd time you've trolled with near identical post. First time was post #23 with
> "_Please tell me specifically how they're "cheating_."​
> I replied in post #24 saying
> "I think you are misunderstanding what I posted. I did not say SanAce is cheating, I said some fan companies cheat the way they gather data.
> 
> Last half of last sentence in my posts reads
> _"although some to cheat a little by artificially 'balancing' the airflow to be identical on both sides of fan when in actual use the intake side will be ever so slightly lower pressure than the exhaust side"_​The third word 'to' should be 'do', but the key word is 'some' as in 'some fan companies'."​
> .


Then specifically which fan manufacturers are cheating w/their fan specification measurements? Please provide proof.


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## doyll

8051 said:


> Then specifically which fan manufacturers are cheating w/their fan specification measurements? Please provide proof.


Basically it involves how they setup, balance and monitor the pressure on intake and exhaust sides of fan test chamber so there is no difference in pressure on either side of fan .. but in actual use a fan creates lower pressure on intake than on exhaust sides. This gives fans an artificially higher airflow than they will give in normal open air environment testing .. which is not how we use our fans anyway. Same goes for testing with fan pushing air against a wall or into a sealed box to get the fan's static pressure rating usually only at full speed .. again a situation we never use our fans (Noctua give pressure ratings with NLA & UNLA adpaters as well as full speed). Noctua talked about this in interviews at Computex 2017. That is as far down your rabbit hole I'm going to go.


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## ciarlatano

8051 said:


> Then specifically which fan manufacturers are cheating w/their fan specification measurements? Please provide proof.


Stop hijacking threads. This is a discussion of Arctic fans, not server fans. Not everything is about loud server fans.


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## poah

Just ordered some of the p12 PWN PST fans to replace a load of coolermaster jet flo 120mm (too loud) on my GPU rad and boys case. I may look into a couple of the bionix fans for my CPU rad.


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## cloppy007

poah said:


> Just ordered some of the p12 PWN PST fans to replace a load of coolermaster jet flo 120mm (too loud) on my GPU rad and boys case. I may look into a couple of the bionix fans for my CPU rad.


Please let us know how it goes. I also have a couple of jetflos in my gpu rad. Why would you choose different fans for the gpu and the cpu rad?


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## poah

cloppy007 said:


> Please let us know how it goes. I also have a couple of jetflos in my gpu rad. Why would you choose different fans for the gpu and the cpu rad?


I have a cryorig A40 ultimate. The QF120 fans (performance) are better than the jetflo fans for noise and cooling. The GPU rad came with crapy fans so put the jetflo on them as I had them in the spares bucket. I might try some of the Bionix P120 fans on the CPU rad for ****s and giggles.


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## ShogoXT

I currently have a OCed Ryzen 1700 having heat troubles, while running intensive things like x264 and some games. 

My case is Bequiet Pure Base 600 and CPU cooler Scythe Mugen 5. I replaced all the fans with Cougar Vortexes because I still wanted to keep it quiet. 
I think part of the issue is the Pure Base 600 filtered intake. I was hoping to get higher SP fans to deal with it instead of ditching the filters if possible. 

So 2x 140mm Cougar Vortex HDB intake on front. 
1x 120mm Cougar Vortex HDB on back as exhaust. 
These three go up to 1200 RPM and are hooked to the fan controller switch on front. (usually keep it on middle)
2x 120mm Cougar Vortex HDB PWM on the Scythe Mugen 5 in push/pull toward the back. They go up to 1500rpm I think. 

Think these new fans might be any better? Though it was mentioned it might not be great for push/pull setups. I dont mind more RPM, but id like quiet designs if possible. 

I probably should have gotten the Fuma instead in the first place.


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## gupsterg

doyll said:


> While Arctic F series are lower pressure rated than Arctic P series they still have good enough pressure to overcome the resistance of grills and filters used in most cases .. as well as on coolers and even some radiators.


Been using 6x F12 PWM on MagiCool G2 Slim 360mm rads and coped really well with TR1950X + RX VEGA 64 housed in Be Quiet Dark Base 900 with full mesh front and some modding to top panel.

Now using 3x P12 PWM on FormulaMod 360mm slim rad purchased from Aliexpress, which to all intents and purposes seems like the retail UK purchased MagiCool G2 Slim 360mm, even down to FPI, etc.

Very happy with P12, currently setup is on ThermalTake Core P5 cooling a 2700X. Seen as low as 400RPM, upto 1000RPM seem inaudible to me in reasonably quiet room. 1200-1400RPM hear more of an air movement sound, again not obtrusive. IIRC seen max 1800RPM, which I've profiled out via UEFI settings.

Cost ~£19.5 delivered for 3, so just like F12 PWM great fans for very little.


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## poah

like for like rpm you see a 2-3C improvement with the arctic P120 PWM over the coolermaster jet flo up to 1000rpm. Massive difference in noise between the two. I don't have a sound meter so couldn't do noise normalised.


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## poah

Tried then on my CPU cooler today (cryorig A40 ultimate). Tested them against the standard cryorig QF120 performance fans.

cryorig first then the arctic P12 PWM. 650rpm is the lowest the AF fans run at and they top out at 2100rpm (should be 2200). Arctic went down to 168rpm. I tested the fans in a case as a front intake in push config. 


3x cinebencg R15 runs

650rpm 54c V 57c
1000rpm 53C V 53C
1800rpm 52C V 50C
2100rpm 51C

AIDA 64

650rpm 60C V 65C 
1000rpm 57C V 57C
1800rpm 54C V 53C
2100rpm 53C

For a real world application I used sony vegas to render a 54s 4K video while the fans were set to 1000rpm. This took 5:40 to complete. I couldn't hear the arctic fans over the ambient noise. 

52C V 54C

I can't measure the actual sound level but I can note when I start to hear the fans. For the cryorig this wa at 800rpm compared to 1200rpm for the arctic. The cryorig fans are quite loud at 1800rpm while the arctic fans are not. 

The cryorig fans clearly have the advantage up to 1000rpm but the sound difference is nothing short of amazing. I did this testing in a quiet house. No kids, no TV, no boiler sounds. 

The BioniX P12 fans are slightly better than the standard P120 versions but they are 2mm thicker and top out at 2100rpm v 1800. They are also approx twice the price for one. I picked up a 5 pack of the pst versions for £33.


----------



## doyll

ShogoXT said:


> I currently have a OCed Ryzen 1700 having heat troubles, while running intensive things like x264 and some games.
> 
> My case is Bequiet Pure Base 600 and CPU cooler Scythe Mugen 5. I replaced all the fans with Cougar Vortexes because I still wanted to keep it quiet.
> I think part of the issue is the Pure Base 600 filtered intake. I was hoping to get higher SP fans to deal with it instead of ditching the filters if possible.
> 
> So 2x 140mm Cougar Vortex HDB intake on front.
> 1x 120mm Cougar Vortex HDB on back as exhaust.
> These three go up to 1200 RPM and are hooked to the fan controller switch on front. (usually keep it on middle)
> 2x 120mm Cougar Vortex HDB PWM on the Scythe Mugen 5 in push/pull toward the back. They go up to 1500rpm I think.
> 
> Think these new fans might be any better? Though it was mentioned it might not be great for push/pull setups. I dont mind more RPM, but id like quiet designs if possible.
> 
> I probably should have gotten the Fuma instead in the first place.


No idea why you posted here hi-jacking Arctic P series fan thead. But as it's already done I'll answer. be quiet! I agree that Pure Base 600 front grill and filter are rather restictive and that 2x Cougar Votex static pressure rating is only good enough to overcome that resistance at higher rpm levels (900-1200rpm), especially when supplying cool air for both CPU and GPU.

Have you monitored the air temp into your Mugen 5? Link below is to a simple low-cost way to do it. Ideally the air temp into cooler should only be 2-4c warmer than room when stress testing/running full loads.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319171-post2.html

You might find the basic guide to how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow in link below of interest. 
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319249-post5.html




gupsterg said:


> Been using 6x F12 PWM on MagiCool G2 Slim 360mm rads and coped really well with TR1950X + RX VEGA 64 housed in Be Quiet Dark Base 900 with full mesh front and some modding to top panel.
> 
> Now using 3x P12 PWM on FormulaMod 360mm slim rad purchased from Aliexpress, which to all intents and purposes seems like the retail UK purchased MagiCool G2 Slim 360mm, even down to FPI, etc.
> 
> Very happy with P12, currently setup is on ThermalTake Core P5 cooling a 2700X. Seen as low as 400RPM, upto 1000RPM seem inaudible to me in reasonably quiet room. 1200-1400RPM hear more of an air movement sound, again not obtrusive. IIRC seen max 1800RPM, which I've profiled out via UEFI settings.
> 
> Cost ~£19.5 delivered for 3, so just like F12 PWM great fans for very little.


so from 6x F12 in push/pull to single 3x P12 fans on what appears to be same radiator spec? What is temp difference with same temp air into them?



poah said:


> like for like rpm you see a 2-3C improvement with the arctic P120 PWM over the coolermaster jet flo up to 1000rpm. Massive difference in noise between the two. I don't have a sound meter so couldn't do noise normalised.


Interesting that only 2-3c improvement at same rpm, but maybe if system was working harder/higher temps the difference would be more. From what I remember you have efficient airflow setup to start with, so only a couple degrees cooler is significant. What were the temps before? 

The most significant part of your testing is that it is much quieter, even if only a few degrees cooler. A good pair of ears judging fan noise level is much better than sound pressure level in dB. I've tested fans when one sounded much nicer and seemed much quieter while still giving same SPL dB reading. :thumb:


----------



## psychophat

Has anyone tried buying direct from https://www.arctic.ac any reviews?


----------



## poah

doyll said:


> Interesting that only 2-3c improvement at same rpm, but maybe if system was working harder/higher temps the difference would be more. From what I remember you have efficient airflow setup to start with, so only a couple degrees cooler is significant. What were the temps before



That's off a GPU remember so plenty of heat to remove. recon you'd have to have 200-300 more rpm on the jetflo for the same temp.


----------



## ShogoXT

Sorry I wasnt trying to hijack. Ive seen those threads before and I know I need positive airflow. The issue is its hard to directly compare new fans with older mid range ones. All I have are old reviews and that big fan database thread on this forum to go by. I noticed a lot of high RPM fans that happen to have better sound profiles at high RPM tend to not push much air especially at lower RPMS. Thats why I asked. 500 RPM higher and still quiet and apparently SP optimized seemed too good to be true. 

I was thinking about ordering direct as well since the price went up on Amazon.

https://youtu.be/JkJhmOA1CBw?t=540 

Anyone seen this? You can hear both the p120 bionix and a Noctua redux 1700. Do a lot of the Noctuas hum like that? The Arctic sure does sound quiet, but I guess it doesnt say everything. 
I dont really know what hes saying I just used the google CC translate.


----------



## poah

ShogoXT said:


> . Do a lot of the Noctuas hum like that? The Arctic sure does sound quiet, but I guess it doesnt say everything.


pretty much


----------



## quietpressure

Ordered a Fuma and a value pack of P12 PWM PST. Pretty excited. I wonder how much difference there is between the Fuma fans and the P12.


----------



## ciarlatano

ShogoXT said:


> Anyone seen this? You can hear both the p120 bionix and a Noctua redux 1700. Do a lot of the Noctuas hum like that? The Arctic sure does sound quiet, but I guess it doesnt say everything.
> I dont really know what hes saying I just used the google CC translate.


The Redux hum a bit, but keep in mind that they are Noctua's budget fan and an older design, so there has to be some concession somewhere. The newer designs don't suffer from the same issue. The iPPC, on the other hand, have noise issues all their own, but that is not surprising from something clearly labeled as an "industrial fan" with an IP67 rating. People seem to just choose to ignore the label.


----------



## doyll

ShogoXT said:


> Anyone seen this? You can hear both the p120 bionix and a Noctua redux 1700. Do a lot of the Noctuas hum like that? The Arctic sure does sound quiet, but I guess it doesnt say everything.
> I dont really know what hes saying I just used the google CC translate.


Just another YouTube talking head audio/video probably taken withe phone .. any way you want it view/listen there is no high quality audio or testing to any kind of scientific / industrial standards. 

Most of us pay no attention to YouTube audio comparisons because the audio is not an accurate recording and YouTube talking heads are just that, usually just talking heads with little to no understanding of what they are talking about. 

Read this thread. There are a few good reviews and some other source info about good testing reviews.


----------



## JackCY

I don't see an issue with Arctic F and P fans, they come in 120 and 140mm, 3 and 4pin at an acceptable cost. Now look at other brands and they only make say 120mm 4pin but nothing else in the same design and at a high price...
The warranty nowadays seems to be 6-10 years on Arctic fans too. For regular users they are good fans and I have no problem buying more of them. The only downside I know about is the thin flimsy cable on some of them.

I will buy P14 if I choose to replace the poor FD fans in my case.

Most fans produce very similar noise at equal RPM and size. Some motors though produce unfavorable noise at lower RPMs.


----------



## ciarlatano

JackCY said:


> Most fans produce very similar noise at equal RPM and size. Some motors though produce unfavorable noise at lower RPMs.


I can't agree on this at all. I have tested numerous fans that sound drastically different from others at like rpm.


----------



## poah

JackCY said:


> Most fans produce very similar noise at equal RPM and size. Some motors though produce unfavorable noise at lower RPMs.



no they don't


----------



## cloppy007

poah said:


> no they don't


Thanks a lot for testing those!


----------



## poah

tested the F12 against the P12 on the radiator today. At 650 rpm the F12 have the better cooling ablity by a couple of degrees, while at 900 and 1300 rpm they are virtually identical. Using vegas again this time at 900rpm, the F12's are basically the same as the P12's. The biggest difference is the sound. The F12's are louder than the P12's and the type of noise is different with a more bass tone. 

I'll try the fans on an air cool system at the weekend and see how the CPU and GPU temps are.


----------



## doyll

JackCY said:


> Most fans produce very similar noise at equal RPM and size. Some motors though produce unfavorable noise at lower RPMs.


I disagree as well. Different fans have different dB levels and make all kinds of different noises. 



poah said:


> tested the F12 against the P12 on the radiator today. At 650 rpm the F12 have the better cooling ablity by a couple of degrees, while at 900 and 1300 rpm they are virtually identical. Using vegas again this time at 900rpm, the F12's are basically the same as the P12's. The biggest difference is the sound. The F12's are louder than the P12's and the type of noise is different with a more bass tone.
> 
> I'll try the fans on an air cool system at the weekend and see how the CPU and GPU temps are.


Thanks for the info. :thumb: 

From what I've been able to find out the P series have higher static pressure rating, but your results with F series giving lower temps at low speed indicates better airflow at low speed .. but is it because F series has better static pressure curve at lower speeds or just better airflow? 

I really wish I could afford a 0-5mm H2O meter accurate to at least 0.1mm H2O. Then I would test them at 100rpm increments, 1 volt increments or 10% PWM increments. Probably volt and % PWM.


----------



## poah

the F12 have the samish airflow @ 1300rpm as the P12's have at 1800rpm. No idea of the static pressure of the F12's though.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> the F12 have the samish airflow @ 1300rpm as the P12's have at 1800rpm. No idea of the static pressure of the F12's though.


That sounds rather strange. Assuming radiator has relatively high resistance to airflow and P12 has higher pressure rating than it should flow more air through radiator at same speed as F12 does. 

And what you are saying now seems to contradict what you said before, that at 900-1300rpm cooling is _'virtually identical'_ .. which I assume means airflow is also about the same:
_"tested the F12 against the P12 on the radiator today. At 650 rpm the F12 have the better cooling ablity by a couple of degrees, while at 900 and 1300 rpm they are virtually identical. Using vegas again this time at 900rpm, the F12's are basically the same as the P12's. The biggest difference is the sound. The F12's are louder than the P12's and the type of noise is different with a more bass tone." _​
Arctic say P12 1800rpm has 2.2mm H2O which is pretty good. 

For comparisons, Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm is rated 2.057mm H2O & GT 1350rpm is rated 1.295mm H2O.


----------



## gupsterg

doyll said:


> While Arctic F series are lower pressure rated than Arctic P series they still have good enough pressure to overcome the resistance of grills and filters used in most cases .. as well as on coolers and even some radiators.
> 
> 
> 
> gupsterg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Been using 6x F12 PWM on MagiCool G2 Slim 360mm rads and coped really well with TR1950X + RX VEGA 64 housed in Be Quiet Dark Base 900 with full mesh front and some modding to top panel.
> 
> Now using 3x P12 PWM on FormulaMod 360mm slim rad purchased from Aliexpress, which to all intents and purposes seems like the retail UK purchased MagiCool G2 Slim 360mm, even down to FPI, etc.
> 
> Very happy with P12, currently setup is on ThermalTake Core P5 cooling a 2700X. Seen as low as 400RPM, upto 1000RPM seem inaudible to me in reasonably quiet room. 1200-1400RPM hear more of an air movement sound, again not obtrusive. IIRC seen max 1800RPM, which I've profiled out via UEFI settings.
> 
> Cost ~£19.5 delivered for 3, so just like F12 PWM great fans for very little.
> 
> 
> 
> doyll said:
> 
> 
> 
> so from 6x F12 in push/pull to single 3x P12 fans on what appears to be same radiator spec? What is temp difference with same temp air into them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Nope . I have Threadripper rig and Ryzen rig.

Threadripper has 2x MagiCool G2 Slim 360mm rads, each rad has 3x F12 PWM, configured as push, front rad is as intake setup, top rad as exhaust, see this thread.

Ryzen has 1x Slim 360mm rad (which general size/FPI is same as MagiCool one's), has 3x P12 PWM, configured as push, case is open air Thermaltake Core P5.

I have not had time to do a like for like compare. Only observations as stated. I know in the past I and others may not have been keen on F12 due to white blades with black frame. So based on improved visual aesthetics, RPM operation range, quiet operation and value for money their my no 1 choice for WC setup.

Sorry for delayed response, seems like forum is still not auto subbing to thread from a post in one  .


----------



## poah

doyll said:


> That sounds rather strange. Assuming radiator has relatively high resistance to airflow and P12 has higher pressure rating than it should flow more air through radiator at same speed as F12 does.
> 
> And what you are saying now seems to contradict what you said before, that at 900-1300rpm cooling is _'virtually identical'_ .. which I assume means airflow is also about the same:
> _"tested the F12 against the P12 on the radiator today. At 650 rpm the F12 have the better cooling ablity by a couple of degrees, while at 900 and 1300 rpm they are virtually identical. Using vegas again this time at 900rpm, the F12's are basically the same as the P12's. The biggest difference is the sound. The F12's are louder than the P12's and the type of noise is different with a more bass tone." _​
> Arctic say P12 1800rpm has 2.2mm H2O which is pretty good.
> 
> For comparisons, Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm is rated 2.057mm H2O & GT 1350rpm is rated 1.295mm H2O.


airflow not static pressure.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> airflow not static pressure.


To have airflow we have to have a pressure differential. 

Fan specifications use static pressure to to give us an idea of what the fans' ability is to overcome resistance. 

Both 'airflow' and 'static pressure' fan specifications are measurements that are not really usable. 

We have to have a pressure differential for there to be airflow .. airs flows from higher pressure area to lower pressure area. 

Airflow specification is generally only taken at maximum fan speed with 0 differential between intake and exhaust sides of fan .. an environment that is not even possible in actual use and definitely not a way we use our fans. 

Static pressure specification is taken by mounting fan pushing air into a sealed container, then measuring how much pressure the fan can push into that container .. again an environment that is rarely possible and definitely not a way we use our fans. 

Our use of fans is in an environment where we have resistance to airflow .. a pressure differential is created by fan pulling air in thus creating a pressure differential of lower pressure near the fan that surrounding higher pressure air move into to balance the pressure back to 1:1. At the same time the fan is pushing air out it's exhaust side creating a higher pressure differential in which the higher pressure air move away from exhaust side of fan. 

But that is just the simple physics of how fans create pressure differentials and thereby airflow. How much resistance the fan can overcome is determined by how much pressure differential the fan can produce at a given speed .. that is what 'static pressure' rating is, the maximum pressure differential the fan can produce. 

Not to that we had grills, filters, radiators, cooler fins, etc. all creating resistance to airflow that fan must overcome to flow air. We can use fans' static pressure ratings to give us an idea of how much resistance the fan can overcome .. the higher the static pressure *(at a given rpm) the more airflow resistance the fan can overcome at that rpm. 

You cannot have airflow with a pressure differential, but you can have a static pressure rating .. again, to have airflow we have to have a pressure differential.


----------



## ShogoXT

Do you guys think the CO versions might be a little louder because they are ball bearings?


----------



## deepor

What I'm thinking about ball bearings:

With Thermalright I've seen two similar fans, one with normal bearing and the other with ball bearing. The ball bearing wasn't louder objectively, but I could pick out the special noise that it made which made that fan subjectively worse for me. It was a sort of "ssssss" sound. Just because I was able to pick out that sound over the rest of the PC made the other fans better. This is subjective because the ball bearing sound wasn't ugly, I could see how some people might find that sound comfortable. It was kind of soothing. This whole experience was at very quiet fan settings, something between 400 RPM and 600 RPM for 140mm fan sizes. The PC case I had at that time was also a pretty open design with mesh at the front, and its metal was crappy and thin. It should be a different situation with a case that has a closed front and maybe dampening, and with faster fan speeds.


----------



## doyll

ShogoXT said:


> Do you guys think the CO versions might be a little louder because they are ball bearings?


As deeper said, it's only a miner difference in sound. So miner most users don't even notice it. Like deeper, on a couple of Thermalright fans like TY-141 vs TY-140/147/147A/149 the TY-141 has ball bearing and a slightly different impeller. I couldn't hear any difference in them unless I put my ear almost touching fan. TY-140/147/147A vs TY-143 (ball bearing) on a cooler ran 24/7 for over 3 years at 50cm I could hear a slight 'sssss' from balls, but I have to be listening for it to hear it .. inside of case setting beside or under desk everyone I asked about it (and myself) couldn't hear it at all. 

The advantage of ball bearings over whatever sleeve designs are used in fans is assume all are good quality is that ball bearings last much longer than sleeve bearings, but the life of a good sleeve bearing is 5+ years, often 7+ years .. and that's as longer than most peeps use the same fans anyway.


----------



## ShogoXT

I just bought a bunch off of Newegg. Amazon has went up in price a lot and Arctic official doesn't have all the models I wanted. 

Bought:
2x 140mm P14
1x 120mm P12
2x 140mm P14 PWM
2x 120mm P12 PWM
Didn't get any with the PST. 

For my Bequiet Pure Base 600 and Scythe Mugen 5. The Pure Base has tiny filters so it might have trouble with intake still we will see. I got two sets of the PWMs because of if the Mugen turns out not good enough. It should be enough for a Ryzen 1700 but video encoding loads still go over 80c sometimes 90c. I'll probably run Realbench to test it since it runs x264 in it's load I think.

Maybe I'll look into a compatible dual tower cooler. Besides if they release a 16 core Ryzen 3800x, I'll probably need it.

Running Cougar Vortexes ATM.


----------



## poah

ShogoXT said:


> It should be enough for a Ryzen 1700 but video encoding loads still go over 80c sometimes 90c. I'll probably run Realbench to test it since it runs x264 in it's load I think..



what ambient and voltage are you running to get that kind of temp?


----------



## ShogoXT

poah said:


> what ambient and voltage are you running to get that kind of temp?


Well for ambient its winter and we are trying to save on energy so probably 65-70F, sometimes lower and just bundle up. I ignored the temps in the summer because it was hot and we had open windows, but now I dont think I can ignore it. The filters on the case are small, but I just cleaned them and id like to keep them and just get more static pressure to be honest. 

Im only at 3.825ghz, but it requires more voltage than id like to maintain it. Around 1.38 to 1.4 depending on LLC, and its static clock instead of offset (il do offset once a new bios shows up for X470 Gaming 7). 

I also had a NH-C14S before that had the same issues. I thought it was because of airflow issues so I changed cases, fans, then cooler.


----------



## AlphaC

ShogoXT said:


> I just bought a bunch off of Newegg. Amazon has went up in price a lot and Arctic official doesn't have all the models I wanted.
> 
> Bought:
> 2x 140mm P14
> 1x 120mm P12
> 2x 140mm P14 PWM
> 2x 120mm P12 PWM
> Didn't get any with the PST.
> 
> For my Bequiet Pure Base 600 and Scythe Mugen 5. The Pure Base has tiny filters so it might have trouble with intake still we will see. I got two sets of the PWMs because of if the Mugen turns out not good enough. It should be enough for a Ryzen 1700 but video encoding loads still go over 80c sometimes 90c. I'll probably run Realbench to test it since it runs x264 in it's load I think.
> 
> Maybe I'll look into a compatible dual tower cooler. Besides if they release a 16 core Ryzen 3800x, I'll probably need it.
> 
> Running Cougar Vortexes ATM.


 Your case airflow probably isn't good enough. Ryzen 7 1700X on the same motherboard @ 3.9GHz Prime95 (1.35V) doesn't even push over 80°C on that board with NH-U14S and that's with memory at 3466C14. I also ran 3.875GHz , 3200C16 RAM on X370 with True Spirit 140 Power and obtained similar temperatures. In non AVX I don't break 65°C.

I have the Ryzen 7 2700X on my TS 140 Power now.

I would recommend using Turbo LLC on X470 G7.


If you're looking into a new case I'd get a Phanteks P600S or Fractal Design Meshify S2 with fans swapped. You'll get to use your USB 3.1 gen 2 header at least.


P.S. also see realistic expectations of Mugen 5 : https://www.computerbase.de/2017-12...renz-cpu-zu-raum-mit-serienluefter-1200-u-min


----------



## kd5151

I got to try these fans out. I just build a computer for my youngest brother. He bought a Phanteks Enthroo Pro M Tempered. I think this case comes with Phanteks MP series fans. I'm not sure. It doesn't have a model number on the fan itself but it looks just like the fan. 

Anyways I told him to buy the P14 PST 5 pack. So he did. After installing them and compare ing them to the stock fans. I'd say the arctic fans push more air. I would do more testing but his zotac RTX 2070 was vibrating/rattling really badly from the fans on gpu. So he sent it back to newegg and is waiting for a replacement.


----------



## The Pook

I never got around to buying any, I got tired of waiting and bought two Noctua NF A14 iPPC-3000s instead


----------



## AlphaC

kd5151 said:


> I got to try these fans out. I just build a computer for my youngest brother. He bought a Phanteks Enthroo Pro M Tempered. I think this case comes with Phanteks MP series fans. I'm not sure. It doesn't have a model number on the fan itself but it looks just like the fan.
> 
> Anyways I told him to buy the P14 PST 5 pack. So he did. After installing them and compare ing them to the stock fans. I'd say the arctic fans push more air. I would do more testing but his zotac RTX 2070 was vibrating/rattling really badly from the fans on gpu. So he sent it back to newegg and is waiting for a replacement.


That's a tall order if they push more air than Phanteks MP , but then again the Enthoo Pro M isn't very restrictive.


----------



## ShogoXT

AlphaC said:


> Your case airflow probably isn't good enough. Ryzen 7 1700X on the same motherboard @ 3.9GHz Prime95 (1.35V) doesn't even push over 80°C on that board with NH-U14S and that's with memory at 3466C14. I also ran 3.875GHz , 3200C16 RAM on X370 with True Spirit 140 Power and obtained similar temperatures. In non AVX I don't break 65°C.
> 
> I have the Ryzen 7 2700X on my TS 140 Power now.
> 
> I would recommend using Turbo LLC on X470 G7.
> 
> 
> If you're looking into a new case I'd get a Phanteks P600S or Fractal Design Meshify S2 with fans swapped. You'll get to use your USB 3.1 gen 2 header at least.
> 
> 
> P.S. also see realistic expectations of Mugen 5 : https://www.computerbase.de/2017-12...renz-cpu-zu-raum-mit-serienluefter-1200-u-min


I could probably remove the filters, but I was hoping to find fans with enough static pressure to compensate. Yeah the timing was horrible as a month later the Fractal Design R6 came out, which would have been my dream case. I'm kinda stuck with this though.


----------



## kd5151

AlphaC said:


> That's a tall order if they push more air than Phanteks MP , but then again the Enthoo Pro M isn't very restrictive.


 The front isn't but the top with the dust filter is. I tested the fans in open air also. At max speed. They seem to do better. 

The stock phanteks fans are 3 pin where as the MP series are 4 pin? Like I said I tested them at max rpm. Maybe the stock fans don't rev up as high as regular MP fans? But for what its worth. They are both very quiet.


----------



## doyll

kd5151 said:


> I got to try these fans out. I just build a computer for my youngest brother. He bought a Phanteks Enthroo Pro M Tempered. I think this case comes with Phanteks MP series fans. I'm not sure. It doesn't have a model number on the fan itself but it looks just like the fan.
> 
> Anyways I told him to buy the P14 PST 5 pack. So he did. After installing them and compare ing them to the stock fans. I'd say the arctic fans push more air. I would do more testing but his zotac RTX 2070 was vibrating/rattling really badly from the fans on gpu. So he sent it back to newegg and is waiting for a replacement.


The 3x stock fans in Enthoo Pro M Tempered will move enough air for 99.9% of builds using 2x front intake, 1x top intake near front of case and remove all PCIe back slot covers to make more vent area around GPU.



AlphaC said:


> That's a tall order if they push more air than Phanteks MP , but then again the Enthoo Pro M isn't very restrictive.


Not MP, but similar with only 1200rpm instead of MP's 1600rpm maximum speed.



kd5151 said:


> The front isn't but the top with the dust filter is. I tested the fans in open air also. At max speed. They seem to do better.
> 
> The stock phanteks fans are 3 pin where as the MP series are 4 pin? Like I said I tested them at max rpm. Maybe the stock fans don't rev up as high as regular MP fans? But for what its worth. They are both very quiet.


The Phanteks case fan is basically a PH-F140SP housing and motor with a PH-F140MP impeller. It's a 1200rpm fan. 

Arctic P14 is a 1700rpm so obviously it's moving more air than a 1200rpm fan. 

3-pin is variable voltage speed control and 4-pin is PWM speed control on PWM controlled header .. if on a variable voltage controlled fan header fan will be variable voltage controlled.


----------



## kd5151

doyll said:


> The 3x stock fans in Enthoo Pro M Tempered will move enough air for 99.9% of builds using 2x front intake, 1x top intake near front of case and remove all PCIe back slot covers to make more vent area around GPU.
> 
> 
> Not MP, but similar with only 1200rpm instead of MP's 1600rpm maximum speed.
> 
> 
> 
> The Phanteks case fan is basically a PH-F140SP housing and motor with a PH-F140MP impeller. It's a 1200rpm fan.
> 
> Arctic P14 is a 1700rpm so obviously it's moving more air than a 1200rpm fan.
> 
> 3-pin is variable voltage speed control and 4-pin is PWM speed control on PWM controlled header .. if on a variable voltage controlled fan header fan will be variable voltage controlled.


The case only came with 2 fans. One in the front and one in the back. When my brother gets his RTX 2070 back I will have to double check the max fan rpm of both fans.


----------



## doyll

kd5151 said:


> The case only came with 2 fans. One in the front and one in the back. When my brother gets his RTX 2070 back I will have to double check the max fan rpm of both fans.


My bad. Was think Enthoo Pro, not Pro M. Pro comes with 3x fans. Believe me, they are 1200rpm 3-pin variable voltage motored fans, not MP's 1600rpm PWM motored fan.


----------



## Karch

I hope I'm not stepping on any toes...

I have a Fractal Design R4, and I am trying to get ready for an upgrade to my board. CPU, and memory, and want to increase the efficiency of my cooling.

While I have an older 212 CPU cooler, it was supposed to be good in it's day (2011), I realize I should upgrade. I'm not really having heat issues right now, so I am hesitating until I get the new gaming parts. I plan to go with either the Noctua NH-D15S or Be Quiet Dark 4.

I've been reading about case airflow, but until today, I thought the Fractal fans were supposed to be decent.

I'm now thinking I should toss some new 140mm fans in my case. My questions are:

Which ones? I like the Artic P14 pricing over the Noctua ND-A14 Chromax, but are they sufficiently close enough in performance to spend that much more?

And, how many should I install? I figure I can buy the 5 pack if I get the Arctics, and any extras I can toss into my wife's Antec case. Plus, my younger son's fan is screaming, though I haven't looked into it yet (screaming is an exaggeration, but it's noisy, so I'm sure it's failing).

Thank you for your time.

BTW, I'm an M.E., so I dig this stuff. I don't deal with low pressure flows like what this topic is about, and nobody is mentioning SCFM, just CFM, but that' fine.

Cheers.


----------



## doyll

Karch said:


> I hope I'm not stepping on any toes...
> 
> I have a Fractal Design R4, and I am trying to get ready for an upgrade to my board. CPU, and memory, and want to increase the efficiency of my cooling.
> 
> While I have an older 212 CPU cooler, it was supposed to be good in it's day (2011), I realize I should upgrade. I'm not really having heat issues right now, so I am hesitating until I get the new gaming parts. I plan to go with either the Noctua NH-D15S or Be Quiet Dark 4.
> 
> I've been reading about case airflow, but until today, I thought the Fractal fans were supposed to be decent.
> 
> I'm now thinking I should toss some new 140mm fans in my case. My questions are:
> 
> Which ones? I like the Artic P14 pricing over the Noctua ND-A14 Chromax, but are they sufficiently close enough in performance to spend that much more?
> 
> And, how many should I install? I figure I can buy the 5 pack if I get the Arctics, and any extras I can toss into my wife's Antec case. Plus, my younger son's fan is screaming, though I haven't looked into it yet (screaming is an exaggeration, but it's noisy, so I'm sure it's failing).
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> BTW, I'm an M.E., so I dig this stuff. I don't deal with low pressure flows like what this topic is about, and nobody is mentioning SCFM, just CFM, but that' fine.
> 
> Cheers.


Arctic P series will move more air than the stock Define R4 fans

Old 212 is still as good as it was when you bought it, but there are now many more similar cooler at similar an sometimes lower prices. 

Arctic P series are low cost fans and as such are not built as well as some higher priced fans. That said at $5 each versus $15 each it's still cost effective to use the $5 fan and replace in 3 years than $15 lasting 5 or 6 years.

As for SCFM vs CFM, the pressure differential our fans make is similar to the difference between the pressure on our body when setting with our toes in the ocean versus when setting 10-15 feet above sea level .. it's a very low pressure differential. Fan specifications are not much good. Both CFM & static pressure ratings are usually on at full speed with CFM being maximim airflow with no resistance and static pressure being maximum pressure fan make pushing air into a sealed container .. definitely not situations we use them at in our uses.


----------



## Karch

Thanks for the reply. 

After thinking about my scfm comment, I realize that in my world I deal a lot with higher pressure gas flows, often at temps much different than 68F, so we have to back calculate to get to some ‘normalized’ flow rates. 

But, in this application, and HVAC, pressures are much closer to atmospheric, so like you said about sea level, it’s practically no difference from CFM to SCFM. 

Back to case fans, I guess I’m trying to determine if the Arctic P flows ‘close enough’ to the Noctua or other higher quality fan, say within 10%, to justify accepting shorter life without sacrificing much in the way of airflow. 

Thank you. I appreciate your time and contributions. I’m on a car forum and have close to the number of posts you do here, so I get the time committed, the desire for people to search before asking, etc. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

Karch said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> After thinking about my scfm comment, I realize that in my world I deal a lot with higher pressure gas flows, often at temps much different than 68F, so we have to back calculate to get to some ‘normalized’ flow rates.
> 
> But, in this application, and HVAC, pressures are much closer to atmospheric, so like you said about sea level, it’s practically no difference from CFM to SCFM.
> 
> Back to case fans, I guess I’m trying to determine if the Arctic P flows ‘close enough’ to the Noctua or other higher quality fan, say within 10%, to justify accepting shorter life without sacrificing much in the way of airflow.
> 
> Thank you. I appreciate your time and contributions. I’m on a car forum and have close to the number of posts you do here, so I get the time committed, the desire for people to search before asking, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, these Arctic fans have similar performance to top tier fans, just lower priced and probably won't last as long. That said I have some Arctic F series that have been in use over 4 years now with no problems.


----------



## Ricwin

I cant provide any feedback on the 140mm versions, but I do have Arctic P12's and Noctua NF-F12s: and I have to say that I prefer the Arctics.

They are quieter at similar RPM, have a noticeably lower start speed and still move alot of air (possibly more air at similar RPM) while being a third of the price 1:1 and even cheaper if purchased in a pack of five. 

P12 PWM PST pack of five is £22. 
P12 PWM PST alone is £7
NF-F12PWM is £21

Style wise, they look very boring, just plain black or white fans. There are models with semi-translucent blades which will look awesome with RGB fan frames like the Phanteks Halo.
Build quality is acceptable, but the plastic seems cheap and the overall feel of the finished product is far from premium (very light weight, sharp edges, minimal packaging). 
Overall they are exceptional value for money.


----------



## ciarlatano

At ~$10 each, I'm really tempted to try out a couple of the P140 just for reference.


----------



## Karch

I just bought a 5 pack from Amazon, but won’t be able to install them for a week. 

I’ll also remove some of the rear slot covers, as long as I have positive pressure in the case I shouldn’t get too much more lint in there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AlphaC

Noctua NF-F12 wasn't a lot better than other fans to begin with unless there is a high restriction. Noctua NF-*A*12x25 is a step up from other fans though in practice the difference isn't majorly large. If you recall ehume tested the NF-F12 and Arctic F12 and they performed similarly: https://www.overclockers.com/pwm-fan-roundup-twenty-four-120-mm-case-fans-tested/ There was a similar result over on hardware.fr https://www.hardware.fr/articles/867-23/graphique-recapitulatif.html



Arctic has a 10 year warranty on the P12/P14 and supposedly uses a fluid dynamic bearing so I wouldn't hesitate to get them for case fans. It's probably actually a rifle bearing of some sort.


Arctic is unwilling to provide PQ curves for the fans though.


We should be getting more coverage because the Arctic Freezer 34 uses this new fan. (https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/freezer-34.html https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/freezer-34-esports.html https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/freezer-34-esports-duo.html)


Compared to two NF-F12 on the Freezer 34 esports Duo:
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...l-gekuehlt-von-bionix-p-lueftern.html?start=6
At 1000 RPM:

2x NF-F12 = 52°C
2x Bionix P120 = 56°C
1x Bionix P120 = 60°C


At max RPM of 2100RPM: 

2x Bionix P120 = 50°C
1x Bionix P120 = 50°C


The Freezer 34 cooler is still a 4 heatpipe cooler though, the thermal results have it around Be Quiet Pure Rock performance despite the use of 2 fans:
https://www.hw-journal.de/testberic...on-arctic-freezer-34-esports-duo-test?start=4


Fin count has increased to 54 from 49 and the trailing edge is now serrated for better airflow characteristics.


----------



## ShogoXT

I ordered a bunch a few weeks ago from Newegg marketplace platinummicro. They split my order and sent one box somewhere else. THEN when I complained the replacements were sent from Arctic themselves, but it was split again lol. So I'm still missing two fans after over 3 weeks. 

I have enough to do testing though. Is there any program you want me to test it on? Currently using Cougar Vortexes right now in a Bequiet Pure Base 600. Also Scythe Mugen 5 with PWM versions of the same fans. The case has a 3 speed fan controller and small front filters. 

If you need more details lemme know.

2x P14 
1x P12
2x P12 PWM
2x P14 PWM (missing still)


----------



## gupsterg

Ricwin said:


> I cant provide any feedback on the 140mm versions, but I do have Arctic P12's and Noctua NF-F12s: and I have to say that I prefer the Arctics.
> 
> They are quieter at similar RPM, have a noticeably lower start speed and still move alot of air (possibly more air at similar RPM) while being a third of the price 1:1 and even cheaper if purchased in a pack of five.
> 
> P12 PWM PST pack of five is £22.
> P12 PWM PST alone is £7
> NF-F12PWM is £21
> 
> Style wise, they look very boring, just plain black or white fans. There are models with semi-translucent blades which will look awesome with RGB fan frames like the Phanteks Halo.
> Build quality is acceptable, but the plastic seems cheap and the overall feel of the finished product is far from premium (very light weight, sharp edges, minimal packaging).
> Overall they are exceptional value for money.


I can't really say they look boring to me. I really prefer the nicer black/black setup and the logo on fan hub is printed on plastic disc vs sticker, which I like and to me makes them seem more premium.

I ran fingers all around edges of the frame and can't say felt any sharpness to edges, as rig running at present I won't go near the blades  . To hand I also had some TY-143 and Be Quiet Silent Wings 3 (140mm), really can't say the frames seem any much better plastic than the Arctic, the TY-143 do have some flex, the Be Quiet have the least.

I reckon fantastic fans at exceptional price. When ever I note the low rotation under usage it does make me grin ear to ear TBH and I like the higher rev range when push loop.


----------



## AlphaC

https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzj..._arctic_bionix_p140_i_p12_pst_pwm-8435-8.html


Per the ithardware people the NF-F12 pushes slightly more linear airflow (m/s) at 1000RPM but at higher noise levels on a heatsink (Thermaltake Frio Silent 14).


At the same 1800 max RPM, it supposedly pushed roughly same amount of air as the older Arctic Bionix F120 (note the Bionix F120 was louder at max RPM). So ultimately at the speeds people normally run at (1200-1500RPM) it should be an upgrade for restricted flow.


----------



## microchidism

I had a bunch of F12 fans, great airflow/ noise performance but easily some of the worst fans I owned from a reliability perspective. After using them for a year it made sense why they were so cheap, they fell apart, rattles, parts breaking, misaligned fan blades etc.

I know they could be easily replaced but I didn't want fans I had to replace every 6 months.

I wonder if these would be more durable


----------



## The Pook

microchidism said:


> I had a bunch of F12 fans, great airflow/ noise performance but easily some of the worst fans I owned from a reliability perspective. After using them for a year it made sense why they were so cheap, they fell apart, rattles, parts breaking, misaligned fan blades etc.
> 
> I know they could be easily replaced but I didn't want fans I had to replace every 6 months.
> 
> I wonder if these would be more durable



Yeah, I had a terrible track record with my F12 fans as well . I'm still thinking about grabbing some because my Meshify S2 is coming sometime within the next week and I need more fans, but I'm not sure what to go for. 

I can't afford to deck that case out in NF-A14 iPPC-3000s to match the two on my AIO :laughings


----------



## AlphaC

The packaging is worse than Noctua / Thermalright / Phanteks fans (they use a molded thin plastic shell container inside a cardboard sleeve) so I wouldn't be surprised if they were damaged in shipping.

Be Quiet uses cardboard and so does Corsair , the difference being Be Quiet has a cardboard box inside the outer one. This is inline with Noctua redux packaging.

Also if it isn't a true fluid dynamic bearing, I would hesitate to mount it facing up or down.

The P140/P120/P12 packaging doesn't seem to have been improved.










vs Corsair ML120


> " 05:06
> comparable temperatures at 2100 RPM they
> 
> 
> 05:10
> run
> 
> 
> 05:10
> 8.5 decibels lower than the corsair fans
> 
> 
> 05:13
> but the temperatures are pretty much
> 
> 
> 05:15
> identical the corsair fans can run at
> 
> 
> 05:18
> the higher 2400 RPM but the temperature"


----------



## poah

AlphaC said:


> The P140/P120/P12 packaging doesn't seem to have been improved.



not relevant to how the fan performs though. My 5 pack came in a cardboard box.


----------



## JackCY

I don't know any computer electronics that would ship in a security steel case, it all always comes in a paper box, be it a $5 fan or a $1200 GPU.

What's wrong with this:










Normally you get this, again a paper box:










An extra layer of paper or thin plastic is not gonna save the fan from destruction if you pierce it with something or drive over it with a something heavy.


----------



## gupsterg

The TY-143 I own came just in a card box, no better or worse packaging than Arctic Cooling F12 / P12 I own as well.









At the time of purchase I had seen them at upto £15 from most sources, I paid £7, really can't say I'd pay £15 a piece for TY-143.

I own 6x F12 and 3x P12, the F12 I have owned since ~Q4 2017. I have ran them for a lot of hours, I will do runs of [email protected] of 24hrs+ at a time. I have had 1 only start to rattle when RPM is at higher end of PWM. To me failure rate no better or worse than other fans I've owned.


----------



## ciarlatano

Well, I base all of my fan buying decisions on the fan's packaging. The packaging plays an integral part in the fan's ability to move air, and the wrong packaging can make for a very poor P/Q, as well as add noise at lower rpm.

</arewereallyevendiscussingthis??????????>


----------



## kd5151

ciarlatano said:


> Well, I base all of my fan buying decisions on the fan's packaging. The packaging plays an integral part in the fan's ability to move air, and the wrong packaging can make for a very poor P/Q, as well as add noise at lower rpm.
> 
> </arewereallyevendiscussingthis??????????>


----------



## ciarlatano

kd5151 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLzoi0lHwOc


Oh! Silent videos with absolutely no information are my favorites! I could watch them for hours! :doh:


----------



## tincmulc

I just bough a 5 pack P14 PWM PST for my define R6 build and here are my thoughts.


On airflow/noise performance my comparison is limited by the only other fans I have: the stock fractal dynamic x2 140mms (1000rpm). The P14s are a great improvement in pretty much all areas. I used both types of fans in a two front intake and 1 back exhaust configuration (yes 2 P14s are still in the box), with the rest of the case openings sealed.



Compared to fractals they have no "engine" noise coming from the motor, which makes them much more comfortable ad medium rpms (400-700). Both fans are dead silent below 250 rpm, which is enough to keep idle temps (also browsing/video). If I lean close I can hear a small ticking noise from the P14s, but with the front door closed it is never noticeable over the general whooshing/humming sound. The sound profile is more of low hum + whoosh which is more pleasant than the fractals. Like the fractals they make an airplane propeller noise at high rpm when mounted with a restriction less than 2mm from intake (in my case this are the mounting rails for 120mm fans on the front as they extended in to the fan area of the 140s). I'm looking in to 3d printing some fan spacers.


Performance wise there seems to be less of a difference when opening the front door in the R6 (compared to fractal fans), so looks like "pressure optimized" thing has some truth to it. But since I didn't tune the fan curves very well yet it's hard to say just how much better these fans are.



I can also confirm that these fans have lower noise at same rpm than other fans. I would say they match the noise of the fractals (at 1000rpm) at about 1250 rpm. Just something to keep in mind if you read reviews which test a specific rpms.


One other thing to mention is the startup/speedup noise. Any time the pwm circuit "boosts" the fan they make a terrible clicking noise. This boost happens when there is large change in desired pwm signal and actual rpm (for example you have it running at 20% pwm and switch to 100%, or the fan is stopped and it needs to start up). The boost behavior is normal for a pwm fan, since I notice it on my noctua fans on the cpu cooler as well. But the noctuas don't make any additional noise, they just overshoot slightly. I would describe the noise as if you dropped a tiny marble from 1 cm on a table and it starts bouncing, each time bounding less high and returning to table quicker (click........click......click....click...click..click.clickclickclccccccc). The noise last less than a second and the fan returns to normal after that.


That is all I gathered from owning the fans for less than 24 hours. Hopefully I'll post another update after I tune the fan curves more and try additional fan setups in the case.


----------



## doyll

tincmulc said:


> I just bough a 5 pack P14 PWM PST for my define R6 build and here are my thoughts.
> 
> On airflow/noise performance my comparison is limited by the only other fans I have: the stock fractal dynamic x2 140mms (1000rpm). The P14s are a great improvement in pretty much all areas. I used both types of fans in a two front intake and 1 back exhaust configuration (yes 2 P14s are still in the box), with the rest of the case openings sealed.
> 
> Compared to fractals they have no "engine" noise coming from the motor, which makes them much more comfortable ad medium rpms (400-700). Both fans are dead silent below 250 rpm, which is enough to keep idle temps (also browsing/video). If I lean close I can hear a small ticking noise from the P14s, but with the front door closed it is never noticeable over the general whooshing/humming sound. The sound profile is more of low hum + whoosh which is more pleasant than the fractals. Like the fractals they make an airplane propeller noise at high rpm when mounted with a restriction less than 2mm from intake (in my case this are the mounting rails for 120mm fans on the front as they extended in to the fan area of the 140s). I'm looking in to 3d printing some fan spacers.
> 
> Performance wise there seems to be less of a difference when opening the front door in the R6 (compared to fractal fans), so looks like "pressure optimized" thing has some truth to it. But since I didn't tune the fan curves very well yet it's hard to say just how much better these fans are.
> 
> I can also confirm that these fans have lower noise at same rpm than other fans. I would say they match the noise of the fractals (at 1000rpm) at about 1250 rpm. Just something to keep in mind if you read reviews which test a specific rpms.
> 
> One other thing to mention is the startup/speedup noise. Any time the pwm circuit "boosts" the fan they make a terrible clicking noise. This boost happens when there is large change in desired pwm signal and actual rpm (for example you have it running at 20% pwm and switch to 100%, or the fan is stopped and it needs to start up). The boost behavior is normal for a pwm fan, since I notice it on my noctua fans on the cpu cooler as well. But the noctuas don't make any additional noise, they just overshoot slightly. I would describe the noise as if you dropped a tiny marble from 1 cm on a table and it starts bouncing, each time bounding less high and returning to table quicker (click........click......click....click...click..click.clickclickclccccccc). The noise last less than a second and the fan returns to normal after that.
> 
> That is all I gathered from owning the fans for less than 24 hours. Hopefully I'll post another update after I tune the fan curves more and try additional fan setups in the case.


Thanks for the info! :thumb:

There is no doubt about Arctic P series (even Arctic F series) out-perform Fractal's case fans. Testing with front door closed is best way t0 see the difference .. because with door closed the only venting is the small vents along sides of front instead of entire area in front of fan having only inner grill resistance to restrict airflow to fan.

If you still have your Noctua fans and they are 140mm, it would be interesting to know how they compare to Arctic P series.


----------



## Ricwin

I only brought up packaging because other manufacturers tend to provide more robust packaging and a plethora of accessories: coloured rings or pads, cable extensions, PSU adaptors, inline resistors, rubber pads or washers to dampen vibrations, toolless mounting pins or similar, or at least black screws. 

But you get absolutely nothing with the P12 five pack, other than a very plain but functional brown box and a little bag of the cheapest and lowest quality bare metal fan screws I've ever seen.
I tried one in an old fan and applied a Phillips head driver to see how easily these screws will round off.... they might as well be made from chewing gum.


----------



## quietpressure

Ricwin said:


> I only brought up packaging because other manufacturers tend to provide more robust packaging and a plethora of accessories: coloured rings or pads, cable extensions, PSU adaptors, inline resistors, rubber pads or washers to dampen vibrations, toolless mounting pins or similar, or at least black screws.
> 
> But you get absolutely nothing with the P12 five pack, other than a very plain but functional brown box and a little bag of the cheapest and lowest quality bare metal fan screws I've ever seen.
> I tried one in an old fan and applied a Phillips head driver to see how easily these screws will round off.... they might as well be made from chewing gum.


I'll take the most minimal packaging any day, thanks. Those so called accessories aren't free you know? They cost as much as the fan.


----------



## Dogzilla07

Ricwin said:


> I only brought up packaging because other manufacturers tend to provide more robust packaging and a plethora of accessories: coloured rings or pads, cable extensions, PSU adaptors, inline resistors, rubber pads or washers to dampen vibrations, toolless mounting pins or similar, or at least black screws.
> 
> But you get absolutely nothing with the P12 five pack, other than a very plain but functional brown box and a little bag of the cheapest and lowest quality bare metal fan screws I've ever seen.
> I tried one in an old fan and applied a Phillips head driver to see how easily these screws will round off.... they might as well be made from chewing gum.


You do understand that the arctic p series are between 3 and 5 times cheaper than the fans that do come with lots of accessories ?, and their performance to the average of the best fans currently available is under <20% overall, and probably more like single digit difference where it matters at 700-1200RPM.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, it sounds like you're saying it's cool the Arctic are the best value, but it kinda sucks that they don't come with the fluff that would make them stop being best value ?

This is their selling point and a perfect calculation of fluff+quality to price for their intended target demographic, ... They are the best at this and have cornered their end of the market, by using a minimalistic, utilitarian approach with the highest quality and performance possible to fit a very aggressive price target. It is completely opposite to the usual apple-style/blingy aesthetic over substance, fluff, fluff, marketing, social-validation oriented(opposed to self-validation) spinning style of making profit.

Arctic F and P series are the AK-47 of cooling. And bionix are like a higher barrel quality with a nicer stock american made AK version (splash of aesthetic on the main piece of the product while ignoring everything else like with the non-bionix and a better frame to help performance). They have a double ball bearing fan version, a temp probe version, as well all focused on the main product itself above all else.


----------



## doyll

Ricwin said:


> I only brought up packaging because other manufacturers tend to provide more robust packaging and a plethora of accessories: coloured rings or pads, cable extensions, PSU adaptors, inline resistors, rubber pads or washers to dampen vibrations, toolless mounting pins or similar, or at least black screws.
> 
> But you get absolutely nothing with the P12 five pack, other than a very plain but functional brown box and a little bag of the cheapest and lowest quality bare metal fan screws I've ever seen.
> I tried one in an old fan and applied a Phillips head driver to see how easily these screws will round off.... they might as well be made from chewing gum.


What @quietpressure said. :thumb:
Your talk a fancy story but that's all it is .. a story. Your claim of _"other manufacturers tend to provide more robust packaging and a plethora of accessories"
_ is a half-truth as best. Many of the best fans are packaged in simple cardboard boxes with few accessories. 

Your expectations of economy fans is to say the least ridiculous. If you want top tier fan accessories you need to pick one of the few top tier fans that come with all those accessories. Then you can have a box full of accesories like rubber pads, PSU adapters, cable extensions, rubber screws, etc of which you will only use a couple and the rest set in a box until they get lost or thrown out. 

Personally I would much rather pay half, third, even quarter as much for fan and source whatever accessories I need/want elsewhere .. often from someone like you who pays way over value for fans with accessories that they don't need or use.


----------



## poah

Ricwin said:


> I tried one in an old fan and applied a Phillips head driver to see how easily these screws will round off.... they might as well be made from chewing gum.


no issues at all with the screws but then I used a screwdriver that correctly fitted the screw.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> no issues at all with the screws but then I used a screwdriver that correctly fitted the screw.


Indeed! :thumb:
There are 2 distinct kinds of 'X' head screws; Phillips and Posidriv, and using the wrong screwdriver in either one will likely strip the 'X'. Phillips are designed to slip out when screw is tight. Trying to use a Phillips tip in a Posidriv screw can quickly strip the Posidriv screw head .. same happens when using wrong size tip in screw. There are many sizes of Phillips (#00, #0, #1, #2, #3 & #4) with 1, 2 & 3 being most commonly used. Posidriv also come in may sizes (PZ0, PZ1, PZ2, PZ3 & PZ4) with PZ1, PZ2 & PZ3 most commonly used. 

Key is to be sure which type of screw head you have and then make sure the screwdriver bit fit snugly into screw head. If you can wiggle the screwdriver in the screw head the screwdriver is too small .. or wrong type.


----------



## ShogoXT

I was half way replacing the front fans when I noticed one of the braces was broken on the P14 like on that video. Tried to super glue it with loctite gel, but it doesn't agree with the plastic and won't hold. I have just the front ones in regardless and they seem to make good front fans on my filtered Bequiet Pure Base 600. Though maybe 1700 vs 1200 rpm has something to do with it. 

Still haven't got my last two fans yet time to complain agaiiiinnnn.


----------



## AlphaC

Was it damaged in shipping?


----------



## ShogoXT

AlphaC said:


> Was it damaged in shipping?


The box seemed in good condition, so I dont think thats the case. The plastic does seem kinda brittle/stiff. 

I still dont know what the voltage is on this Pure Base 600 fan controller, but so far im getting lower temps on the middle setting than maxed out on the Cougar Vortex fans. 

The fan noise on middle and max seem to be a higher pitch kind of hum. I had gotten used to the low hum of the vortexes.


----------



## sorance2000

I've got two p12 PWM and changed the fans on my MSI GTX 1060 gt3 oc and couldn't be happier. Quieter and better cooling.
It seems that the weakest part of them is the package/box.


----------



## ShogoXT

So I just did a check and none of the other fans are broken (unless it's causing the high pitch sound because of it). The one that was broken came directly from Arctic as a replacement. It didn't have any padding in box much, but the box seems undamaged. 

Also for some reason Newegg processed a refund on one of the fans I did get in the first place???? What a month.


----------



## doyll

The most common place for fans to break in shipping is the motor to shroud braces. Motor is heaviest piece in a fan and only has the 3/4 braces to fan shroud supporting .. so when banged around the moving inertia of motor if not packed so it can't move will snap brace strap. I've received new cases with same broken braces to fan motor with no damage to box other than one corner being slightly rounded .. and a few other individually boxed fans have arrived with this kind of damage. I've also had a fair few fans arrive with bent shaft / housing causing extreme vibrations. 

Sure, they could design a package that protected these braces, but that would increase the price to consumer .. and of the hundreds, really it's probably many thousands that have been sold by now, how many are reaching consumer broken? I'm betting it's way less than 1%. 

Just out of curiosity, how many of these damaged fans users have received came with no other boxing except the fan box? I receive lots of shipments and 99% of them are double boxed with bubble wrap of some sort between inner box and outer box .. enough padding to absorb the kinds of shock that can break fan motor braces.


----------



## Breslavets

tincmulc said:


> I just bough a 5 pack P14 PWM PST for my define R6 build and here are my thoughts.
> 
> ....
> One other thing to mention is the startup/speedup noise. Any time the pwm circuit "boosts" the fan they make a terrible clicking noise. This boost happens when there is large change in desired pwm signal and actual rpm (for example you have it running at 20% pwm and switch to 100%, or the fan is stopped and it needs to start up). The boost behavior is normal for a pwm fan, since I notice it on my noctua fans on the cpu cooler as well. But the noctuas don't make any additional noise, they just overshoot slightly. I would describe the noise as if you dropped a tiny marble from 1 cm on a table and it starts bouncing, each time bounding less high and returning to table quicker (click........click......click....click...click..click.clickclickclccccccc). The noise last less than a second and the fan returns to normal after that.
> 
> 
> That is all I gathered from owning the fans for less than 24 hours. Hopefully I'll post another update after I tune the fan curves more and try additional fan setups in the case.


Is it possible to run P14 PWM PST as usual 3-pin fan?
Have we got noise in such way?
And what about start speed in 3-pin config?


----------



## alcmdemdsks

I know this is aircooling section, but aquaero will make life so much easier and less painful for fan control...depending on each motherboard's implementation of PWM and hoping to work flawlessly is just...a dream. It's supposed to work 99% of the time, but sometimes it doesn't and that drives me nuts. Waking up from sleep and 100% power to fans? yep. It's capable of slowly spinning at 20% PWM but just dead unless I restart computer? Yep, BIOS sucks.


----------



## doyll

Breslavets said:


> Is it possible to run P14 PWM PST as usual 3-pin fan?
> Have we got noise in such way?
> And what about start speed in 3-pin config?


There should be no problem running the P14 on variable voltage. I don't know of any PWM fan that has a problem running on variable voltage. Just don't daisy chain too many together.


----------



## ciarlatano

drewafx said:


> I know this is aircooling section, but aquaero will make life so much easier and less painful for fan control...depending on each motherboard's implementation of PWM and hoping to work flawlessly is just...a dream. It's supposed to work 99% of the time, but sometimes it doesn't and that drives me nuts. Waking up from sleep and 100% power to fans? yep. It's capable of slowly spinning at 20% PWM but just dead unless I restart computer? Yep, BIOS sucks.


The Aquaero is a fan controller, so certainly not out of place in the air cooling discussion. But....it is also an incredibly expensive fan controller, so it is a bit odd in a thread about budget fans.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> The Aquaero is a fan controller, so certainly not out of place in the air cooling discussion. But....it is also an incredibly expensive fan controller, so it is a bit odd in a thread about budget fans.


While aquaero controllers are not as cheap as others (most are garbage in my opinion). here aquaero 5 LT is £50 and aquaero 6 LT is £90 ... not that much more money than other fan controllers doing a fraction of what aquaero can. Nzxt 2x fans and controller cost £100, and typical fan controllers (basically junk) cost £20-30. I know, aquaero LT does not have a 5.25 panel, but aquaero controls so much it's far easier to setup custom curves and monitor on computer screen anyway.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> While aquaero controllers are not as cheap as others (most are garbage in my opinion). here aquaero 5 LT is £50 and aquaero 6 LT is £90 ... not that much more money than other fan controllers doing a fraction of what aquaero can. Nzxt 2x fans and controller cost £100, and typical fan controllers (basically junk) cost £20-30. I know, aquaero LT does not have a 5.25 panel, but aquaero controls so much it's far easier to setup custom curves and monitor on computer screen anyway.


I didn't realize the 5LT had come down that much. Now I'm thinking about picking one up for myself.....

But, if I am spending $65+shipping on a fan controller, I'm probably not going to use $5 fans. That was my point.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> I didn't realize the 5LT had come down that much. Now I'm thinking about picking one up for myself.....
> 
> But, if I am spending $65+shipping on a fan controller, I'm probably not going to use $5 fans. That was my point.


Indeed, it's not practical to use $5 fans and buy a $65 fan controller .. especially when motherboard fan headers can usually be setup with custom curves.

If I was going to buy an aquaero I'm not sure if I would go LT 5 or LT 6. 6 has 4 PWM channels vs 2 in 5 .. 6 also has solid state variable voltage so no power loss / heat bulidup when running variable voltage fans at lower voltages. I know aquaero are not cheap, but considering how much they can do with a few extra senors, probes, etc they are an amazing bit of kit.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Indeed, it's not practical to use $5 fans and buy a $65 fan controller .. especially when motherboard fan headers can usually be setup with custom curves.
> 
> If I was going to buy an aquaero I'm not sure if I would go LT 5 or LT 6. 6 has 4 PWM channels vs 2 in 5 .. 6 also has solid state variable voltage so no power loss / heat bulidup when running variable voltage fans at lower voltages. I know aquaero are not cheap, but considering how much they can do with a few extra senors, probes, etc they are an amazing bit of kit.


We are dragging the thread OT. Back to Arctic fans!


----------



## ShogoXT

I have been using these for a while now they aren't bad. Might be because it's broken, but the case vibrates slightly at higher speeds. 

I wanted to help the noise a bit more. Have you guys used rubber fan gaskets or rubber fan screws?


----------



## JackCY

I always use silicone/rubber attachment. If I can't due to clearance for a filter for example I use a ziptie or screw or the fan bracket holds fans on it's own as they simply clip in.

Never had a case vibrate from fans. From HDDs... sure but even that I think I tracked down why, usually some part of the case is loose, such as front door or it's construction.


----------



## poah

ShogoXT said:


> I have been using these for a while now they aren't bad. Might be because it's broken, but the case vibrates slightly at higher speeds.
> 
> I wanted to help the noise a bit more. Have you guys used rubber fan gaskets or rubber fan screws?


nope, no vibration on either case or rad fans


----------



## JackCY

So how do people find these P14 compared to F14 fans etc.? Noise/rpm wise and ability to move air through filters? General noise at low rpm?


----------



## ciarlatano

JackCY said:


> So how do people find these P14 compared to F14 fans etc.? Noise/rpm wise and ability to move air through filters? General noise at low rpm?


I'm still waiting to see anything even faintly resembling cedible data or review. No sign of either yet.


----------



## The Pook

I've been waiting for a solid review of them too, been tempted to grab a 5 pack for a while now.


----------



## ciarlatano

The Pook said:


> I've been waiting for a solid review of them too, been tempted to grab a 5 pack for a while now.


I keep thinking about it, as well. Just out of morbid curiosity. But, I don't feel like flushing $50 and time. I feel pretty confident that they aren't going to match up with the SW3, Noctuas, Phanteks MPs, Corsair ML and a myriad of others that I already have on hand.


----------



## Melcar

Reviews seem to be all over the place. Some have it close to the NF-A12 in terms of raw cooling ability but much louder.


----------



## Stolly76

Not sure if helpful for you guys:


https://www.ocinside.de/review/arctic_bionix_p120_p140/5/


----------



## ciarlatano

Melcar said:


> Reviews seem to be all over the place. Some have it close to the NF-A12 in terms of raw cooling ability but much louder.


Which is not particularly impressive.



Stolly76 said:


> Not sure if helpful for you guys:
> 
> 
> https://www.ocinside.de/review/arctic_bionix_p120_p140/5/


Absolutely no data of use in that review.


----------



## JackCY

https://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.p...onix-p140-p14-pwm-pst-doppeltest-p-serie.html


----------



## deepor

JackCY said:


> https://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.p...onix-p140-p14-pwm-pst-doppeltest-p-serie.html


There's also a German version of that same article:

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-serie-verspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html


----------



## ciarlatano

JackCY said:


> https://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.p...onix-p140-p14-pwm-pst-doppeltest-p-serie.html


Comparison to the SW3 and the like is not pretty..... If that review is even close to correct, count me out on these.


----------



## JackCY

And does SW3 cost $5? XD Even SilentiumPC Sigma Pro costs nearly double. Nah SW3 is $24+. So would you rather buy 5x Arctic P14/F14 or 1x BeQuiet/Noctua fan? I would rather buy the Sigma or Thermalright if I had to have that fan blade shape than bother with overpriced BeQuiet/Noctua/...


----------



## BroadPwns

I've recently did a testing of P12 vs SP120 on Raijintek Tisis, Arctics made temperatures on each core 3C lower. And are a bit less audible, tested both on a constant 950RPM.


----------



## Melcar

For the price they seem to be almost Godly. If you average out all the reviews available (not that they are great) and take into consideration the price you get a better than average fan. The F series had some PWM issues, so I hope this series does not. I may get a 5 pack for my spare rig and swap out the Slipstreams I have on there at the moment.


----------



## ciarlatano

JackCY said:


> And does SW3 cost $5? XD Even SilentiumPC Sigma Pro costs nearly double. Nah SW3 is $24+. So would you rather buy 5x Arctic P14/F14 or 1x BeQuiet/Noctua fan? I would rather buy the Sigma or Thermalright if I had to have that fan blade shape than bother with overpriced BeQuiet/Noctua/...


It would depend on the usage. Given that I already have a number of better fans, it would make no sense for me to buy these. If you were me, would you rather spend nothing on five SW3, or $15 per on Amazon for the P140? 

I was interested as certain people are in a bunch of threads stating that they are as good as SW3, Corsair ML, Noctuas of all varieties, etc. But, from the results I'm seeing, that isn't the case and these fans aren't for me.


----------



## AngryLobster

Based on the prior version, I expect these to fail, rattle/click, groan within 2-6 months of use.


----------



## JackCY

None of my cheapo FD, Gelid 5 year runtime or Arctic F14 guess a year, rattle or click or groan. Gelid both vertical and horizontal mounted. Plus warranty on most of these is as long as the 5x more expensive brands, 5-10 years. So who cares if they may fail.
The F14/P14 are also easy to sleeve to get rid of the tiny flimsy cable feel.


----------



## Stolly76

ciarlatano said:


> Which is not particularly impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely no data of use in that review.


Yeah sorry for that Ciarlatano.


----------



## justanotheruser

Are these case fans good? Or should I go with the ML120's 2 pack even though they are way more expensive?


----------



## BroadPwns

I bought a value pack of 5 P14s and will get them at tuesday or wednesday. P12 for radiators is deffinitely a nice choice, very quiet and gives a nice pressure. Though can't really say anything about its airflow, except the air pushed exercised noticeably less force on my hand than SP120.


----------



## ciarlatano

justanotheruser said:


> Are these case fans good? Or should I go with the ML120's 2 pack even though they are way more expensive?


From the reports, they seem to be a very good _*budget*_ fan. If you are looking for a low cost solution, they would seem to be an excellent choice. But, they are not going to give you the performance or sound signature of a top tier fan like an SW3, eLoop, ML120, etc. So, you need to decide what is more important for your situation - the savings or the performance, and if the performance benefits will actually translate in your usage.


----------



## poah

BroadPwns said:


> I bought a value pack of 5 P14s and will get them at tuesday or wednesday. P12 for radiators is deffinitely a nice choice, very quiet and gives a nice pressure. Though can't really say anything about its airflow, except the air pushed exercised noticeably less force on my hand than SP120.



You can't go wrong with these fans unless you want RGB. You can get 5 fans for the same price as one SW3/NF-A12 with very little real world performance difference.


----------



## BroadPwns

I installed 3 P14 to the front, all running at 780RPM plugged to motherboard through a 4-way splitter, one P14 directly above CPU tower and installed P12 on the front of CPU cooling. Just gonna say my temperatures doesn't change when I open side panel and front glass panel. Front fans are inaudible, the P12 starts getting a bit noisy after exceeding 1300RPM but it's a low frequency sound, air noise is dominant.


----------



## JackCY

Do P14 make any annoying/noticeable motor sounds at 500-1000rpm? 3pin nonPWM version preferably but I can live with 4pin PWM although they often cost more so I don't buy them.


----------



## BroadPwns

I own regular 3-pin P14, they're literally inaudible, no clicking, no motor noise, nothing until you put your ear to them, then you can hear the air moving.


----------



## JackCY

Think I will replace the awful FD fans with motor noise, they struggle with any obstruction too, 11 blades for airflow and no pressure or pull.


----------



## tiryn

I thought I'd share my experience with these.

I bought a 5-pack of the Arctic P12 PWM PST's for £33 off Amazon a few days ago for use on a 360 radiator in a custom loop. I was using Corsair LL120's before and although I like the RGB I wanted to see how much difference more optimised fans would make. 

I used 30 mins of Deus Ex Mankind Divided as my test just because that's what I'm playing at the moment.

At 1350 RPM under load my maximum GPU temps were 3c lower with the Arctic P12's.
Also 3c difference with 1800 RPM Arctic P12 vs 1700 RPM Corsair LL120. 

At the same 39 dBa when using Corsair LL120'[email protected] I could run the P12's at 1500 RPM which resulted in 4c lower max GPU temps. 
~40dBa is my sweetspot for noise/performance. 
I measured dBa using my phone in a consistent way with everything active like mechanical hard drives, pump, 3 extra LL120's as case fans at low RPM etc...etc...

So I find the P12's definitely perform better or are quieter than the Corsair LL120 but that was to be expected given how much space the 2 LED loops take up.
I run these at 1500 rpm under load and I'm very happy with them for the price having paid just £6.70 per fan with the 5-pack. 
I'll either sell the 2 I have spare or use them on a second radiator in future not sure yet.
The PST daisy-chain feature seems to work well and is handy if you run out of fan headers.

I did encounter a downside however: At maximum speed of 1800 rpm the P12's make a sort of heavy motor sound that comes and goes quickly and is annoying. Not sure how to describe it. It disappears at 1750-1700 rpm and below though so it's easy to avoid without much performance loss.

I've only tested 3 out of my 5 fans but I did test the 3 individually and they all did it. I thought perhaps it was suffering from a bad PWM signal or power issues or something so I tried without the PST daisy-chain feature hooking each one up to a separate header on my Corsair Commander Pro but it didn't change anything. If anyone thinks using my Asus mobo fan headers with bios or software control instead could make a difference I can try it out for them.


----------



## BroadPwns

tiryn said:


> [blah]
> I did encounter a downside however: At maximum speed of 1800 rpm the P12's make a sort of heavy motor sound that comes and goes quickly and is annoying. Not sure how to describe it. It disappears at 1750-1700 rpm and below though so it's easy to avoid without much performance loss.
> [blah]



It could be resonating with your PC case, have you tried forcing it fan was unmounted?


----------



## tiryn

BroadPwns said:


> It could be resonating with your PC case, have you tried forcing it fan was unmounted?


Aha you are right! I plugged in one of the spare P12's alone outside the case and it doesn't resonate at the max speed 1800 rpm. It sounds pleasant.

Is there anything I can do about this?

I'm curious is this why often fans have rubber on them does it help stop this effect?


----------



## BroadPwns

tiryn said:


> Aha you are right! I plugged in one of the spare P12's alone outside the case and it doesn't resonate at the max speed 1800 rpm. It sounds pleasant.
> 
> Is there anything I can do about this?
> 
> I'm curious is this why often fans have rubber on them does it help stop this effect?


You might try rubber pins from Noctua in example, instead of regular, metal screws. I can't really say about the rubber on fans but for sure using any elastic and squishy material for mounting extra hardware should take care of the resonation. 

Or you could change your case.


----------



## doyll

I second the suggestion to use the rubber mounting pins. All kinds of makers / sellers of them. Look on ebay.


----------



## tiryn

BroadPwns said:


> You might try rubber pins from Noctua in example, instead of regular, metal screws. I can't really say about the rubber on fans but for sure using any elastic and squishy material for mounting extra hardware should take care of the resonation.
> 
> Or you could change your case.





doyll said:


> I second the suggestion to use the rubber mounting pins. All kinds of makers / sellers of them. Look on ebay.


Hmm not so sure it's the case or screws anymore. 

I tried pressing on the screws and/or case to see if the noise changes but it didn't. 

I then removed the screws holding the two of the three P12's between the case front and radiator so they were a little loose and again no change.

I was expecting a change or reduction in that resonating sound.

Anyways I don't need to run them at max so I'm not very bothered by this. 

Next time I open up the panels I'll experiment a bit further. 
Maybe I'll swap in the spares and/or use some rubber washers with the screws. 
Also I'll try running 2 or more of the fans freestanding instead of just one and see if the noise returns.


----------



## TeslaHUN

I made a little video about the P12 pwm pst ( sorry bad quality ) for those who are still hesitant to buy or not this fan.
I think P12 is very quiet still strong , very good all all around fan.


----------



## JackCY

Anyone bought P14 PWM or P12 PWM, how is the noise when running low duty cycle 30-70%?
How are modern motherboards that mostly/only come with 4pin headers with control of 3pin fans? Do they still include voltage control or do many boards don't care anymore and support PWM control only?


----------



## poah

my msi boards will do DC or PWM. fans are very quiet till around 1100 rpm where they become noticable.


----------



## doyll

JackCY said:


> Anyone bought P14 PWM or P12 PWM, how is the noise when running low duty cycle 30-70%?
> How are modern motherboards that mostly/only come with 4pin headers with control of 3pin fans? Do they still include voltage control or do many boards don't care anymore and support PWM control only?



They are not loud at that speed range, but obviously louder at 70% than 30%. 



Many of new motherboards have both PWM and variable voltage, but easy way to find out is download and look at manual of motherboards you are considering.


----------



## JackCY

Yeah I did dig into recent mobos and it seems some may still offer voltage control but it's getting rare.
My purchase plans fell through too, twice... 1st shop sold out the P14 3pin, doesn't sell 4pin, 2nd shop sold out SSD and won't ship other SSD... and their 3/4pin P14s are an addon item. Ha! No buying for me then right now.

Ordered a powered 4pin 1 to 5 ports. Will probably get the 4pin PWM P14s sooner or later.
My question is are the PWM fans more loud than voltage controlled (when in the controlled range, not full speed obviously hence 30-70%)? Years ago the PWM fans weren't that great noise wise.


----------



## Melcar

They are the same fan. Fan noise will be the same. The only issue is that you may get a fan with a noisy (clicking) PWM circuitry, which can be bothersome to some people.


----------



## doyll

JackCY said:


> Yeah I did dig into recent mobos and it seems some may still offer voltage control but it's getting rare.
> My purchase plans fell through too, twice... 1st shop sold out the P14 3pin, doesn't sell 4pin, 2nd shop sold out SSD and won't ship other SSD... and their 3/4pin P14s are an addon item. Ha! No buying for me then right now.
> 
> Ordered a powered 4pin 1 to 5 ports. Will probably get the 4pin PWM P14s sooner or later.
> My question is are the PWM fans more loud than voltage controlled (when in the controlled range, not full speed obviously hence 30-70%)? Years ago the PWM fans weren't that great noise wise.


Some PWM have a faint click, most do not. From what I have been able to figure out it has something to do with the PWM control (in motherboard) vs PWM in fan not woking properly together. Most users don't have any problems, but there are a few who do notice it.


----------



## JackCY

What rpm do the P12 PWM run at around 40% duty? Would their PWM/rpm curve be suitable for a GPU that would mostly run around 40% PWM?


----------



## BroadPwns

100% is 1850RPM, if it's linear then 740RPM would be 40%. My motherboard doesn't have a "set PWM % signal", instead it has a "x PWM signal/C degree" but it doesn't tell what temperature is a baseline value.


----------



## poah

JackCY said:


> What rpm do the P12 PWM run at around 40% duty? Would their PWM/rpm curve be suitable for a GPU that would mostly run around 40% PWM?


couple of fans I tried

850 rpm
846 rpm (daisy chain) 
838 rpm (daisy chain via afterburner on GPU rad)


----------



## JackCY

poah said:


> couple of fans I tried
> 
> 850 rpm
> 846 rpm (daisy chain)
> 838 rpm (daisy chain via afterburner on GPU rad)


That's the P12 PWM version at 40%? Looks good then.

Although daisy chain means series connection which is not the way to connect PWM fans. I think you mean classic parallel connection to either same port or different ports, so all fans get 12V and PWM signal.


----------



## poah

JackCY said:


> That's the P12 PWM version at 40%? Looks good then.
> 
> Although daisy chain means series connection which is not the way to connect PWM fans. I think you mean classic parallel connection to either same port or different ports, so all fans get 12V and PWM signal.


"in a daisy chain configuration by connecting each component to another similar component, rather than directly to the computing system that uses the component. Only the last component in the chain directly connects to the computing system."


----------



## JackCY

Code:


P12 PWM

Sample	1	2
100%	1950	1993rpm
40%	884	884rpm

F14

Sample	1
100%	1335rpm


----------



## gupsterg

P12 PWM, using 4 in 1 cable, 3x on 360mm rad, open air chassis, ear was ~1ft away I'd say whisper quiet, couldn't hear any clicking, etc.



Spoiler


----------



## AlphaC

gupsterg how would you say the radiator performance is?


How many fpi is your radiator?


----------



## gupsterg

@AlphaC

Seems decent to me, bare in mind though I have only had 2 WC rigs, as they use pretty much same rads I have very limited comparative to go on . My aim was just to gain quieter rigs and experience water cooling, so bought budget rads. I think the rads are ~16 FPI. I have had fans like TY-141, TY-143, Silent Wings, Silverstone, Gentle Typhoon, etc before used on say HS or rad of AIO, I really like the Arctic Cooling ones though, best price/performance fans IMO.

The P12's are used on 2700X+C7H. The rad was purchased from Formulamod, 360mm one listed here. When I compare to the 2x Magicool 360 G2 Slim I got from OCuk, only thing that separates them is packaging. The Magicool ones had a printed outer sleeve over the brown box containing rad. I purchased these rads based on xtremerigs rad roundup review. The 2x Magicool 360 G2 Slim are used on 1950X+ZEA+V64, that rig has 6x F12 PWM.

Here's 30% / 20% RPM on the P12s. 30% I had to be inches away to hear them, I reckon I was hearing the pump more than them, 20% was inaudible to me.



Spoiler


----------



## poah

AlphaC said:


> gupsterg how would you say the radiator performance is?
> 
> 
> How many fpi is your radiator?



good - used on a magicool 240x45, cryorig AIO 240x37.5 and have some currently on a bykski 360x30. quite and cool well even with this heat we are currently having.


----------



## JackCY

AlphaC said:


> gupsterg how would you say the radiator performance is?
> 
> 
> How many fpi is your radiator?


The P12 PWM suck (air), I think more than an F14, my custom and sadly very restrictive air filter was getting pulled to the P12 fan more, not that the output seemed any great to my hand when filter was right in front of fan on either of these. The RPM dropped at 100% to around 1800rpm or lower from original nearly 2000 of the P12. They spec them as 1800rpm anyway, they probably know the torque of the motor isn't gonna hold them at 2k when mounted to anything.

To me the 120mm fans look small, I don't know why people keep using these as case fans or on rads. 140mm+ is the way to go for where space allows.

I probably won't be getting the P14 PWM soon, tricky to buy them, I can get non PWM 5 pack and non pack (often cheaper than 5 packs!) for decent price, but PWM variant + shipping... will wait and see if I actually need them or not.

F14 blows air more to sides where as P12 blows air more centrally behind itself. As expected per their blade design.
F14 7.5cm away from GPU was dropping temps. on GPU by around 5C, P12 same 5C, margin of error, it may be hotter now, 100% speed. I don't know what those GPU fans are doing on almost every GPU but it seems their performance is always abysmal.
Hence I plan to mount these two P12 PWM to a GPU.

P12 PWM vibrate more than F14 at full speeds. Motor noise wise seems both OK. P12s had some other slowly repeating noise but faint, might go away after more use or not.


----------



## gupsterg

JackCY said:


> To me the 120mm fans look small, I don't know why people keep using these as case fans or on rads. 140mm+ is the way to go for where space allows.


Prior to building the WC rig that's something I'd have said. If I went 280mm rad I was not getting as much as rad space, 420mm was too big. 360mm was right for sizing and was actually the sweet spot for pricing.


----------



## doyll

gupsterg said:


> Prior to building the WC rig that's something I'd have said. If I went 280mm rad I was not getting as much as rad space, 420mm was too big. 360mm was right for sizing and was actually the sweet spot for pricing.


I agree with JackCY about how small 120mm fans look compared to 140mm fans. 

A 360 radiator has 432sq cm of fin area while a 280 radiator has 392sq cm of fin area .. the 360 is only 40sq cm, that's only about 9-10% more area for 3x 120mm fans than 2x 140mm fans.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> I agree with JackCY about how small 120mm fans look compared to 140mm fans.
> 
> A 360 radiator has 432sq cm of fin area while a 280 radiator has 392sq cm of fin area .. the 360 is only 40sq cm, that's only about 9-10% more area for 3x 120mm fans than 2x 140mm fans.


Every time I see a quote about a 360mm rad being larger than a 280mm rad, I cringe.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Every time I see a quote about a 360mm rad being larger than a 280mm rad, I cringe.


You know I agree with your about usiing 280mm rad rather than360 rad, but I like making your cringe.  
Like I said, it is slightly bigger, but that 10% difference makes very little if any difference in performance .. and 3x 120mm fans on 360mm rad are going to be noticeably louder than 2x 140mm on 280mm rad.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> You know I agree with your about usiing 280mm rad rather than360 rad, but I like making your cringe.
> Like I said, it is slightly bigger, but that 10% difference makes very little if any difference in performance .. and 3x 120mm fans on 360mm rad are going to be noticeably louder than 2x 140mm on 280mm rad.


Actually.....you didn't make me cringe. You pointed out how insignificant the difference in surface area is, and now pointed out the fan aspect which is the other part of why the 280mm is preferable in many cases. These are the factors around me cringing when people talk about 360mm rads like they are 30% larger than a 280mm (because, yes, 360 is 30% larger than 280.....but that is not how surface area is measured).


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Actually.....you didn't make me cringe. You pointed out how insignificant the difference in surface area is, and now pointed out the fan aspect which is the other part of why the 280mm is preferable in many cases. These are the factors around me cringing when people talk about 360mm rads like they are 30% larger than a 280mm (because, yes, 360 is 30% larger than 280.....but that is not how surface area is measured).


Your claim of 30% bigger is making me cringe. Even 360mm length is not 30% longer than 280mm length .. and the 120mm width to 140mm width almost equalizes that difference. 

And that's making the false assumption all radiators cool the same per square mm of surface area .. and they definitely do not!!


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Your claim of 30% bigger is making me cringe. Even 360mm length is not 30% longer than 280mm length .. and the 120mm width to 140mm width almost equalizes that difference.
> 
> And that's making the false assumption all radiators cool the same per square mm of surface area .. and they definitely do not!!


*I'm* not claiming it is 30% larger. I am saying that there are quite few posters who treat it that way, and that it is absolutely incorrect. I am not math challenged, I know how to measure surface area.

I am saying that I cringe when I see people posting under the assumption that there is more than a negligible difference in surface area between a 360mm and 280mm.


----------



## poah

ciarlatano said:


> I am saying that I cringe when I see people posting under the assumption that there is more than a negligible difference in surface area between a 360mm and 280mm.


10% is more than negligible.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> 10% is more than negligible.


Only to someone like you with limited understanding of what that 10% involves. We are tallkng a 20-40c temp differential for 26c ambient to component temp .. meaning that 10% difference is no more than a maximum of 1.4c. 
That is a component running at 65c instead of 66.4c .. 
and that 1.4c difference is definitely not a significant difference in component temps.:thumbsdow

Heck! Most of our homes have room temp changes of more than that 1.4c in a typical 24 hour period. :thumbsdow:buttkick:


----------



## JackCY

360x120x25 = 1080000
280x140x28 = 1097600

You know you can buy a slightly thicker rad if that fin area and volume difference bothers you XD

Water and electronics should not be mixed anyway.


----------



## doyll

JackCY said:


> 360x120x25 = 1080000
> 280x140x28 = 1097600
> 
> You know you can buy a slightly thicker rad if that fin area and volume difference bothers you XD
> 
> Water and electronics should not be mixed anyway.


More numbers with no reference to anything real life .. like some hands on testing of what the actual cooling ability of each. 

Anyone with half an IQ point can post up numbers of total area, even add in fin count and construction materials. But none of that is really telling us anything about cooling ability radiator is. 

Some smaller radiators cool much better than some bigger ones. 

It's not the size of tool that counts, but how it's used.


----------



## BroadPwns

It's easier to extract heat from a thin radiator than a thick one too.


----------



## gupsterg

A Magicool 360 G2 Slim is ~£40 on OCuk, a 280mm XSPC is ~£50, Alphacool ST30 280mm is ~£67.




Spoiler



750RPM 1.0GPM 170W vs 151W +12.5% advantage to the G2 Slim
1300RPM 1.0GPM 273W vs 234W +16.6% advantage to the G2 Slim
1850RPM 1.0GPM 348W vs 290W +20% advantage to the G2 Slim












My first WC rig was the 1950X+ZE+GTX1080/V64 back in 2017. As a noob to WC I used the extremerig data to make my mind which rad I would buy. Plus based on the items I was aiming to cool. I was gonna take whatever advantage going 360mm gave vs 280mm. I also felt the system ended up visually more pleasing by using 2x 360mm vs 280mm. My post is not meant to change anyone's viewpoint, but more so how I came to the decision I did, I have no regret on going 360mm rad / 120mm fans.

As I'd experienced what the Magicool was like, when I wanted to go WC on the 2700X I had no qualms buying a like rad from Aliexpress.









Coupled with the AC fans I reckon good bang for buck.

IIRC when I decided to go F12 PWM on the 1950X rig it was based on review data from overclockers.com, with the P12 PWM I just bought them as I liked the F12 and expected these to be better. Sure didn't disappoint me  .


----------



## AlphaC

I think that shows about 10-15% difference when you put a D5-level pump, but many people using 6W pumps such as the Alphacool DC-LT / EKWB SPC-60 aren't going to see that difference.

The reason why people have 360 radiators is more often due to case clearance. For example in the Fractal R6/S2 if you run a 280 on top you're limited to 35mm motherboard component height (XSPC doesn't make a 20mm thick TX280 radiator only 240/360/480), you'd need something larger such as the Phanteks P600S to fit a 280 up top (65mm top clearance exceeds 30mm thickness + 25mm fan thickness). Cases such as the Meshify C fit 280/360 in front.

Ultimately it's highly case dependent , since a case such as the Phanteks P350X or NZXT H500 for example can fit 280 in front but not a 360 anywhere in the case.


----------



## jura11

Hi there

Recently my Noiseblocker BlackSilent PL2 Pro started to rattle,I think they are 1 year and few months old and I use PC 24/7,I expected they will last bit longer and option have been to get another 3 fans from Noiseblocker or try another fans

I bought 2 value pack of 5 Arctic Cooling P12 and my brother bought me 1 more pack because he didn't know I bought 2 of them

I use these Arctic Cooling P12 PWM on MO-ra3 360mm radiator and on two Magicool G2 360mm radiators, at normal speeds like 700-800RPM I just can't hear them on MO-ra3, on Magicool G2 radiators too they're pretty much quiet on these radiators running them in 650-700RPM and no issues

For price they're very nice fans and 10 year warranty is good thing at least

Hope this helps 

Thanks, Jura


----------



## BroadPwns

Can't you RMA your NBs?


----------



## jura11

BroadPwns said:


> Can't you RMA your NBs?


I tried to RMA them through the OCUK but I think over here in UK NB BlackSilent PL2 Pro do have 1 year warranty,I contact them but nothing so far

For money AC P12 are very nice fans without the question

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura


----------



## BroadPwns

EU law FORCES stuff to have 2 year warranty at least. Else the item cannot be sold on the EU regions. AFAIK UK is still a part of EU. Anyway, what about shop's warranty? I find it hard to believe they gave 1 year only.


----------



## JackCY

UK and warranty... as far as I remember they often had 1 year but of course then they were in EU so one could hassle with them to get 2 years accepted. Unless otherwise stated prior to purchase on the product description and sale information.
Right now they are pretty much "dead"/collapsing or what ever they are doing, failing to negotiate, gov falling apart as they can't pass anything and no one wants to have anything to do with the BREXIT. So they are getting multiple extended exits so far and they should have already been twice out by now.
You can also see who voted how area wise in UK and how crazy the results are that they let it pass with barely any majority.

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/noiseblocker-blacksilent-pro-fan-pl2-fan-120mm-1400rpm-fg-027-nb.html

6 year warranty. But is that 1 or 2 years with the shop? Or all 6? (In my country if it said on their page 6 it would be 6 via shop.) Probably 1 with shop and rest with manufacturer/whoever is what I would expect from UK.


----------



## poah

JackCY said:


> 6 year warranty. But is that 1 or 2 years with the shop? Or all 6? (In my country if it said on their page 6 it would be 6 via shop.) Probably 1 with shop and rest with manufacturer/whoever is what I would expect from UK.


Warranty isn't with the shop but the manufacturer. Probably have to return them via the shop anyway but shouldn't be an issue to do it. 


https://www.overclockers.co.uk/returns


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> Warranty isn't with the shop but the manufacturer. Probably have to return them via the shop anyway but shouldn't be an issue to do it.
> 
> 
> https://www.overclockers.co.uk/returns



I agree with JackyCY. Warranty law is on a country by country bases. Even here in UK I have had to return things bought from OcUK to brand company. Classic was Corsair in Europe trying to make defective product owner pay international shipping rates on warranty returns .. which could be quite expensive on big or heavy items. Of course laws say Corsair had to pay shipping, but most owners didn't know this so got stuck with expensive shipping costs. 

USA is one of the best for defective products. In fact to get return shipping paid by Corsair required calling Corsair customer support in California. 


This was years ago. Things have changed here sense then.


----------



## Baerny

There's 2 version of the P14 pwm fan, the regular and "CO" (for continuous operation). The price difference in EU is very small...
does anyone have insight which has more pleasant sound profile? The CO model is double ball bearing.

https://www.arctic.ac/eu_en/p14-pwm.html
https://www.arctic.ac/eu_en/p14-pwm-pst-co.html


----------



## poah

They are the same fan - at the same rpm they sound the same


----------



## TeslaHUN

poah said:


> They are the same fan - at the same rpm they sound the same


Same fan but different bearing. Must be some difference in sound prof.
Dual ball (CO version) vs fluid (normal p14)


----------



## Baerny

poah said:


> They are the same fan - at the same rpm they sound the same


Of course it's possible that they sound the same. 
However I would not be surprised if there was difference in sound profiles because of different bearing types.


----------



## JackCY

Ball bearing fans have a more grindy noise. I have a BB fan in my PSU and I leave it constantly off because I can't stand the BB noise, it's not loud but it's higher pitched.
If you have any ball bearings at home, well take them in your hand and spin them, that's how it will sound. Metal balls rolling.

FDB fans from my experience are quieter bearing wise. The rest is the same.

Some fan bearings don't like being horizontal especially up side down but I didn't have that problem with Arctic F14 or P12 PWM yet.

P14 PWM was 4.99 EUR on Amazon but not anymore, I may get those but even locally some shops have raised prices of these so I'm waiting if there will be some deal again, I don't want the 3pin anymore and those are always cheaper.
That's why the CO seems similar in price to you now, the PWM version is priced high at the moment.


----------



## poah

TeslaHUN said:


> Same fan but different bearing. Must be some difference in sound prof.
> Dual ball (CO version) vs fluid (normal p14)


didn't know that. get the non-BB fan then


----------



## Baerny

JackCY said:


> Ball bearing fans have a more grindy noise. I have a BB fan in my PSU and I leave it constantly off because I can't stand the BB noise, it's not loud but it's higher pitched.
> If you have any ball bearings at home, well take them in your hand and spin them, that's how it will sound. Metal balls rolling.
> 
> FDB fans from my experience are quieter bearing wise. The rest is the same.
> 
> Some fan bearings don't like being horizontal especially up side down but I didn't have that problem with Arctic F14 or P12 PWM yet.
> 
> P14 PWM was 4.99 EUR on Amazon but not anymore, I may get those but even locally some shops have raised prices of these so I'm waiting if there will be some deal again, I don't want the 3pin anymore and those are always cheaper.
> That's why the CO seems similar in price to you now, the PWM version is priced high at the moment.


Hmm interesting. I don't have any ball bearing fans at home. Got noctua NF-P14s which are listed sso bearing and some phanteks fans which are listed something called UFB "updraft floating balance bearing". I may buy one of these ball bearing arctic p14 CO and a regular one just out of curiosity and see if I can hear difference.

Didn't know they used to go for 5€. At the moment p14 CO fan 8€ in amazon.de and regular model 7,6€ from local shop.


----------



## deepor

@Baerny:

I can also hear that special noise that a ball-bearing creates, same as @JackCY. It's not a loud noise, it's very quiet. I have a theory that the ball bearings aren't actually more noisy, but their noise is special and I can pick it out among the rest of the noise coming from the PC. With the normal sleeve bearings, it could be that those bearings aren't actually more quiet, but instead what's happening could be that their noise disappears into the rest of the "whoosh" from the PC.

The last time I tried a ball bearing fan it was Thermalright's TY-150 model. It's objectively a super nice fan. The sound from its ball bearing wasn't really uncomfortable. That only thing that made it annoying for me was simply the fact that it was noticeable and that I could pick it out. I bet there's people that perceive things in reverse, with the ball bearing sound actually being calming instead of annoying.

I don't know what's happening in a case with dampening mats. Those mats might capture the ball bearing noise?


----------



## JackCY

No the damping mountings are for low frequency vibration noise from the fan being imbalanced. FDB bearings (a fancier sleeve) which is the majority despite endless fancy names of variations of this design are often quiet, ball bearings aren't loud but they make a higher pitched easy to notice sound (can hear them from a PSU inside a case put beside a table facing down, sure they probably last long and are good for servers but even in PSUs EVGA moved to HDB/FDB fan with the next PSU released and stopped this double ball bearing "thing" which was likely caused by marketing and raised cost as well, many think ball bearing is superior and so they love to have it and market it, but it's not for all use cases). Even those expensive Noctua 3000 rpm 140mm "industrial" fans have a FDB/HDB bearing.

Amazon.de has them again at 4.99 EUR but they limit all their P14 fans at least P14 and P14 PWM to 2 units per order. Gonna by them elsewhere. Amazon is meh to buy lower priced items alone, and then they kill it completely with how many you can buy. Can get them cheaper elsewhere for 4 pieces with shipping included.


----------



## Exilon

I just replaced ML140s and NF-A14s with P14s on 16FPI radiators. These move the comparable amounts of air at a much lower noise level.


----------



## ciarlatano

Exilon said:


> I just replaced ML140s and NF-A14s with P14s on 16FPI radiators. These move the comparable amounts of air at a much lower noise level.


What device are you using to measure cfm through the rad? Are you measuring fpm as well?


----------



## Exilon

I'm measuring noise generated by the fans to keep a 400W CPU+GPU loop at 7C coolant temperature over ambient. At the same power dissipation and same coolant temperature difference, CFM would be around the same. 

At 1.5m, the difference was at least 5dB. I'll need to turn down my pump to measure a bigger difference. The fans are no longer audible at load with a closed back M50x headphone, so it's a huge upgrade personally.

IMO, the hwluxx review offered an accurate comparison of these three fans: https://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.p...onix-p140-p14-pwm-pst-doppeltest-p-serie.html

One fan in the 5-pack was also DOA, resulting in my radiators setup having an empty 140mm slot until tomorrow. It's still a blowout in performance and value versus my old fans, so I can't complain too much.


----------



## doyll

Exilon said:


> I just replaced ML140s and NF-A14s with P14s on 16FPI radiators. These move the comparable amounts of air at a much lower noise level.


Pretty good fans considering their cost. Will be interesting to see how long they last.


----------



## ciarlatano

Exilon said:


> I'm measuring noise generated by the fans to keep a 400W CPU+GPU loop at 7C coolant temperature over ambient. At the same power dissipation and same coolant temperature difference, CFM would be around the same.
> 
> At 1.5m, the difference was at least 5dB. I'll need to turn down my pump to measure a bigger difference. The fans are no longer audible at load with a closed back M50x headphone, so it's a huge upgrade personally.
> 
> IMO, the hwluxx review offered an accurate comparison of these three fans: https://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.p...onix-p140-p14-pwm-pst-doppeltest-p-serie.html
> 
> One fan in the 5-pack was also DOA, resulting in my radiators setup having an empty 140mm slot until tomorrow. It's still a blowout in performance and value versus my old fans, so I can't complain too much.


And that review also has results for other fans that don't line up with the vast majority of credible review sites, so......
And this review shows them on par with an Antec case fan - https://www.techfortechs.co.uk/arctic-p12-pwm-pst

How is it possible that there is not a single review of this series of fans from a credible review site?


----------



## JackCY

Can't say, my P14 PWM PST should arrive in a week. Finally ordered those P14s. Hopefully they won't be banged up and broken. The P12 were fine, same packaging as any other fan I've seen that doesn't cost a fortune due to brand name and a couple accessories.
The value packs are often more expensive than individual (at least where I am) and all the broken reports so far are from the 5 packs?

---

Define credible. Almost no one reviews fans as they would have to make their own measurement rig and big popular reviewers/advertisers even could some really be called don't do that, they will run a few GPU benches and that's it.
Similar to how PSUs are on other sites, different sites than where one would look for CPU/GPU reviews.
As long as testing is consistent and well controlled then the difference between reviewers... well is about same as difference in reviews for CPUs and GPUs, different setups to measure.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> And that review also has results for other fans that don't line up with the vast majority of credible review sites, so......
> And this review shows them on par with an Antec case fan - https://www.techfortechs.co.uk/arctic-p12-pwm-pst
> 
> How is it possible that there is not a single review of this series of fans from a credible review site?


 Agree with ciarlatano. 



Their test data is rather inconsistant even with both at same speed. 



We have 2 fans with same impeller and housing except for red pieces performing at same levels in all testing except lattice with on fan being 5m³/h different . 



Only possible reason is an error in test equipment or person reading and recording data acurately .. especially when we consider they don't even mention this anomaly.:thumbsdow


----------



## Exilon

Got my replacement fan in fill in the radiators. Holding 6.5c coolant over ambient at 1400RPM on 280 + 420 radiator setup. It's about as loud as ML140 + NF-A14 setup at 1100 RPM which was only good for 9c. 

How's Arctic able to produce such a good 140mm fan at $6 each? No idea (it's probably fan blade design >> everything else), but these are now my pick for medium speed radiator fans. 



doyll said:


> Agree with ciarlatano.
> Their test data is rather inconsistant even with both at same speed.
> 
> We have 2 fans with same impeller and housing except for red pieces performing at same levels in all testing except lattice with on fan being 5m³/h different .
> 
> Only possible reason is an error in test equipment or person reading and recording data acurately .. especially when we consider they don't even mention this anomaly.:thumbsdow


Or the person reading the specs, lmao. The fan with red pieces run 250 RPM faster at max than the cheaper P14. That's why they're 5m³/h apart at max speed. If you look at the 1000RPM chart, they're within margin of error.



ciarlatano said:


> And that review also has results for other fans that don't line up with the vast majority of credible review sites, so......
> And this review shows them on par with an Antec case fan - https://www.techfortechs.co.uk/arctic-p12-pwm-pst
> 
> How is it possible that there is not a single review of this series of fans from a credible review site?


I'm not going to debate whether reviews are credible or not when the counterargument is some website that strapped theirs to an low restriction air cooler with case air circulation turned off, and got similar results to other fans. What's the point of that test?


----------



## ciarlatano

Exilon said:


> I'm not going to debate whether reviews are credible or not when the counterargument is some website that strapped theirs to an low restriction air cooler with case air circulation turned off, and got similar results to other fans. What's the point of that test?


That's not a counterargument. I was merely pointing out that reviews are all over the place on these, and all from small sites and/or tested in ways that really show nothing. With all of the attention these seem to be getting, I would love to see some testing from someone like VSG.


----------



## doyll

Exilon said:


> Got my replacement fan in fill in the radiators. Holding 6.5c coolant over ambient at 1400RPM on 280 + 420 radiator setup. It's about as loud as ML140 + NF-A14 setup at 1100 RPM which was only good for 9c.
> 
> How's Arctic able to produce such a good 140mm fan at $6 each? No idea (it's probably fan blade design >> everything else), but these are now my pick for medium speed radiator fans.
> 
> 
> 
> Or the person reading the specs, lmao. The fan with red pieces run 250 RPM faster at max than the cheaper P14. That's why they're 5m³/h apart at max speed. If you look at the 1000RPM chart, they're within margin of error.
> 
> I'm not going to debate whether reviews are credible or not when the counterargument is some website that strapped theirs to an low restriction air cooler with case air circulation turned off, and got similar results to other fans. What's the point of that test?


 Yes, it does run 250rpm faster at full speed but the test results I was referring to were with both fans at 1000rpm, not full speed. All testing but one had results for both the same except the one that was 5c off. 



if you are going to post test results be prepared to told when they are not accurate. They tested fans with 5 different airflow resistance levels with 3 being the same and 1 1c differnce .. except for test that was 5c difference. That specific test was too far off the norm to be correct, yet they didn't even seem to notice that. Therefore their testing is bogus like ciarlatano said.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> if you are going to post test results be prepared to told when they are not accurate. They tested fans with 5 different airflow resistance levels with 3 being the same and 1 1c differnce .. except for test that was 5c difference. That specific test was too far off the norm to be correct, yet they didn't even seem to notice that. Therefore their testing is bogus like ciarlatano said.


My favorite result was the ML140 Pro having 50% more CFM than the ML140 Pro RGB......it's a very special article.


----------



## deepor

ciarlatano said:


> My favorite result was the ML140 Pro having 50% more CFM than the ML140 Pro RGB......it's a very special article.



Are you sure you didn't make a mistake there and are confused about "LL140" and "ML140"? Those LL and ML models seem to have totally differently shaped fan blades and different amount of fan blades, and also different speeds. It's a bit hard to find picture online because there's only crappy marketing pictures about how they look like while they are running to show what the LEDs are doing.

Here's photos about that crappy LL140:

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...fter-mit-doppeltem-rgb-lichtring.html?start=1

*EDIT:*

Oh, I think I get what you are looking at. There's that other page where things look different. I was only looking at the 1000 RPM page.

*EDIT2:*

I think I found out what's going on on that other page. They have a test about ML140 RGB here:

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...gnetlager-und-rgb-beleuchtung-kombiniert.html

And there they write that their ML140 is 2200 RPM, and their ML140 RGB is just 1200 RPM. That should then explain the very different CFM at max speed.


----------



## Exilon

Fan speed reduced a bit, pump speed reduced 5%, power load increased a bit since I was doing something else.










38dB at ~1370 RPM










36dB at ~1170 RPM, but it's getting difficult to measure due to background noise

It's getting too hot in the room. Time to turn on the air conditioning (45dB), so that's the end of noise testing.

I'm actually upset at this whole situation. Went through Vardar 140, ML140, NF-A14 fans, all essentially side-grades, and then some $30 per 5 pack from Arctic blows them all out of the water...


----------



## AlphaC

For 16 FPI radiators that result seems better than expected. What is the thickness?


----------



## Exilon

30mm 420mm (HWLabs GTS) exhausting on top with push.

45mm 280mm (EK CE) intake + filter on front with push pull

Some more chart data:

Previous ML140 + NF-A14 setup at ~1150RPM:










Current Arctic P14 setup at 1350RPM and 1200RPM:










1350RPM with the Arctic P14 is quieter than the 1150RPM ML140 + NF-A14 setup. 

Edit: W10 emojis don't work, charts are hard.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> My favorite result was the ML140 Pro having 50% more CFM than the ML140 Pro RGB......it's a very special article.


 Can you post a link to that one? 

The way some members think, RGB gives 50% performance increase.

@ deeper; 

Indeed, how the anolamy of 1 our to 5 different airflow resistance tests of BioniX P140 & P140 is 5 cubic meters / hour lower yet no mention of this anomaly in arcticle .​​


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Can you post a link to that one?
> 
> The way some members think, RGB gives 50% performance increase.
> 
> @ deeper;
> 
> Indeed, how the anolamy of 1 our to 5 different airflow resistance tests of BioniX P140 & P140 is 5 cubic meters / hour lower yet no mention of this anomaly in arcticle .​​


I'm at work, so sketchy Russian sites are blocked. 

I'll point that out when I have a chance. It's on the same chart that shows the 120mm SW3 high speed moving significantly more air than the 140mm high speed.

But, all of that really doesn't matter. The point is......_*why can't we just get a decent review of the Arctic P Series fans???????*_


----------



## deepor

@doyll, @ciarlatano:

Here's the German version of that article, that one doesn't have a .ru URL:

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-serie-verspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html

In that version, they also don't mention this thing with the 55 vs. 60 cubic meters in their 1000 RPM test.

So they either made a mistake and didn't repeat their testing, or there really is something different.

About things maybe being different, on page 2 and 3 they have photos of both models and they are a tiny bit different. I would guess that the differences between the fans wouldn't be enough for a different result, especially as the difference is only there for that one "grill" setup but not for the "grill+filter" and "radiator" tests.

I would then guess they made a mistake. About why they don't mention anything and didn't try repeating to fix it, a possible reason might be that the mistake is just a typo? Maybe the result was for example "58" or "59" and the person fat-fingered things on the number pad of his keyboard and typed "55" instead.


----------



## Exilon

I think there are no decent reviews because they're too cheap and people have been condition to expect performance fans to be expensive.

Normal people use stock fans while the enthusiasts go for the name brand fans at >$20/ea. Fan reviews are hardly hot topics like monitor or CPU/GPU reviews, so not many clicks to go around.

It's unfortunate because these $6-7/ea P14 fans come out on top against Vardar, ML140, and NF-A14 by a large margin on my 16FPI setup in the sub-45dB range.

On the other hand, it only cost $50 (actually $28 thanks to Prime Day credits) to swap out my entire setup on a lark.


----------



## poah

Exilon said:


> I think there are no decent reviews because they're too cheap and people have been condition to expect performance fans to be expensive.
> 
> Normal people use stock fans while the enthusiasts go for the name brand fans at >$20/ea. Fan reviews are hardly hot topics like monitor or CPU/GPU reviews, so not many clicks to go around.
> 
> It's unfortunate because these $6-7/ea P14 fans come out on top against Vardar, ML140, and NF-A14 by a large margin on my 16FPI setup in the sub-45dB range.
> 
> On the other hand, it only cost $50 (actually $28 thanks to Prime Day credits) to swap out my entire setup on a lark.



pretty much the only complaint has been some have been damaged in transit. I'm super happy with the fans. Loudest bit on my system is the PSU which is going to get changed when I get a navi card
.


----------



## doyll

deepor said:


> @*doyll* , @*ciarlatano* :
> 
> Here's the German version of that article, that one doesn't have a .ru URL:
> 
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-serie-verspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html
> 
> In that version, they also don't mention this thing with the 55 vs. 60 cubic meters in their 1000 RPM test.
> 
> So they either made a mistake and didn't repeat their testing, or there really is something different.
> 
> About things maybe being different, on page 2 and 3 they have photos of both models and they are a tiny bit different. I would guess that the differences between the fans wouldn't be enough for a different result, especially as the difference is only there for that one "grill" setup but not for the "grill+filter" and "radiator" tests.
> 
> I would then guess they made a mistake. About why they don't mention anything and didn't try repeating to fix it, a possible reason might be that the mistake is just a typo? Maybe the result was for example "58" or "59" and the person fat-fingered things on the number pad of his keyboard and typed "55" instead.


Whatever excuse we try and use, it doesn't change the fact they have a serious anomoly in their testing, one that cannot be explained and one they didn't even try to explain. I can't believe they didn't notice that glaring error and comment on it.




Exilon said:


> I think there are no decent reviews because they're too cheap and people have been condition to expect performance fans to be expensive.
> 
> Normal people use stock fans while the enthusiasts go for the name brand fans at >$20/ea. Fan reviews are hardly hot topics like monitor or CPU/GPU reviews, so not many clicks to go around.
> 
> It's unfortunate because these $6-7/ea P14 fans come out on top against Vardar, ML140, and NF-A14 by a large margin on my 16FPI setup in the sub-45dB range.
> 
> On the other hand, it only cost $50 (actually $28 thanks to Prime Day credits) to swap out my entire setup on a lark.


I don't think it's because of cheap product .. possibly because people who buy cheap are not paying attention to performance and quality but I doubt it. 

Both normal people and most enthusiasts are sheep following the herd's lead. Few bother to learn how things actually work and believing almost anything they see in advertising. They simply don't know enough to notice this kind of error, same as cooler testing in cases using air temp taken at thermometer on other side of room at beginning and end of testing instead of the actual air temp going into cooler. 

Sad but true.

The quality of low cost fans can be problematic. Little to no difference in housing and impeller other than possible research into developing a better design, but lower quality bearings, motor wiring and PWM circuitry can be .. and of course packaging that results in shipping damage. 

Sure would be nice to have some test results from a source like Thermalbench and CoolingTechnique who use a more scientific approach to testing.


----------



## liszt17

Hi everyone! I'm thinking about to use the p14 as a case fan. My case is the enthoo pro, without hdd cages. I currently use 2 wing boost 2 140 from alpenföhn as intake, and 2 p12 as outtake. I fairly satisfied with temps, but not with the noise. I want a fan with good airflow at low rpms, because alpenföhns are not so great in this. 
So I want a fan, with good airflow, very silent, and reasonable price.
I like to ask that, _is the p14 a good fan compared to_ Alpenföhn Wb3/beQuiet! Sw3/Sw3 hs/Noctua nf-a14/nb eloop b14-ps?
I live in Hungary, and here the prices are ~11 Euro for wb3, ~17-20 Euro for Sw3/Hs, ~22 Euro for NF-A14, and ~23 Euro for b-14 ps. Compared to theese, the p14 pst price in Hungary are ~*6 Euro per piece, and 24 Euro for the 5 pack*...
So the price of 1 premium fan I can buy 5 piece of p14's.
I registered mainly for this post, so can I ask, _how perform the p14 in same speed, max speed, same noise comparison?_ In real life, not rewiews.
Thank you!


----------



## deepor

doyll said:


> Whatever excuse we try and use, it doesn't change the fact they have a serious anomoly in their testing, one that cannot be explained and one they didn't even try to explain. I can't believe they didn't notice that glaring error and comment on it.
> [...]


I actually think their test is done really well. They seem to have thought a good bit about how to best do it, like for example what setups they chose with dust-filter or radiator or whatnot. And they arranged that tunnel and measurement device. I don't see what's wrong with what they are doing. It should create good results.

Could you notice another thing in their results or testing that looked off besides that one graph? If everything else looks good, their work is probably fine and their results are then trustworthy. At least you know they didn't just hide results when something was off in what they measured.


----------



## doyll

liszt17 said:


> Hi everyone! I'm thinking about to use the p14 as a case fan. My case is the enthoo pro, without hdd cages. I currently use 2 wing boost 2 140 from alpenföhn as intake, and 2 p12 as outtake. I fairly satisfied with temps, but not with the noise. I want a fan with good airflow at low rpms, because alpenföhns are not so great in this.
> So I want a fan, with good airflow, very silent, and reasonable price.
> I like to ask that, _is the p14 a good fan compared to_ Alpenföhn Wb3/beQuiet! Sw3/Sw3 hs/Noctua nf-a14/nb eloop b14-ps?
> I live in Hungary, and here the prices are ~11 Euro for wb3, ~17-20 Euro for Sw3/Hs, ~22 Euro for NF-A14, and ~23 Euro for b-14 ps. Compared to theese, the p14 pst price in Hungary are ~*6 Euro per piece, and 24 Euro for the 5 pack*...
> So the price of 1 premium fan I can buy 5 piece of p14's.
> I registered mainly for this post, so can I ask, _how perform the p14 in same speed, max speed, same noise comparison?_ In real life, not rewiews.
> Thank you!


Welcome to OCN! 

As stated before Arctic P series are probably a good choice considering their low price. |More crictial listeners don't seem to like their sound profile as well and much more expensive fans, but for the price difference most are happy with them.

What is the price of Phanteks PH-F140MP in 2-pack or 3-pack? Here in UK we can get PH-F140MP 2-pack for £16.26, which are a much better fans for only a little more money. 

Another fan to look for is Thermalright TY-140, 147, 147A, 147A SQ. Every once in awhile they sell for very low prices. If you get the rounded ones, they can be squared up quite easily with a saw or sander and I've made thin plywood or plastic 140mm square adapter plates with 140mm fan mounting holes. Link below is the that post.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/23207921-post23.html



deepor said:


> I actually think their test is done really well. They seem to have thought a good bit about how to best do it, like for example what setups they chose with dust-filter or radiator or whatnot. And they arranged that tunnel and measurement device. I don't see what's wrong with what they are doing. It should create good results.
> 
> Could you notice another thing in their results or testing that looked off besides that one graph? If everything else looks good, their work is probably fine and their results are then trustworthy. At least you know they didn't just hide results when something was off in what they measured.


While the test station looks good at a glance, it's not as good as it looks. It is a 5.75" acrylic tube 1 meter in length. While 5.75" (146mm) diameter is fine for 120mm fan testing it is too close to size of 140mm fans (which is what they tested here). It also has an "airflow straightener" of woolen wire screens spaced inside tube that which probably do straighten/equalize airflow across area of tube, it is also creates some airflow resistance. Long story short, the 146mm diameter of tube is going to be restricting 140mm fan airflow more than it will restict 120mm and smaller fan's airflow.

So it's testing results on 140mm fans is tubing size is restricing airflow to some extent, no idea how much.

The glearing abnormality is the grill test with a 9.1% differential between fans. With 5 test total, 3 tests are same flow and one off by only 1.6%. Tthe 1.6% is probably within margin of error for their test equipment, but 9.1% is a glaring abnormality!

As they make no comment about this glaring abnormality, I assume they thing this is accurate and acceptalbe testing procedure and results .. when 3 others have no differences and other one has only 1.6% of difference, how can their results be considerd good?


----------



## Exilon

PH-F140MP are pretty bad case fans, even through a mesh. I tried using them as a case fan on my dual AIO Enthoo Pro build (with HDD cage) after they flopped against Vardar 140 on 30FPI radiators and they disappointed there too.

VSG says they're worse than Vardar 140/NF-A14/ML140 (they all fall within a few %) on 12FPI rads as well. Given how restrictive the front-end of the Enthoo Pro is, I expect VSG's tests to be a decent good proxy.

http://thermalbench.com/2015/08/12/ek-vardar-f3-140er-140mm-fan/3/

http://thermalbench.com/2015/10/31/thermalright-ty-147a-140mm-fan/3/

Just get the Arctic P14 and see how they do. Two of them at 1200 RPM should pull a lot of air without making much noise at all.


----------



## doyll

Exilon said:


> PH-F140MP are pretty bad case fans, even through a mesh. I tried using them as a case fan on my dual AIO Enthoo Pro build (with HDD cage) after they flopped against Vardar 140 on 30FPI radiators and they disappointed there too.
> 
> VSG says they're worse than Vardar 140/NF-A14/ML140 (they all fall within a few %) on 12FPI rads as well. Given how restrictive the front-end of the Enthoo Pro is, I expect VSG's tests to be a decent good proxy.
> 
> http://thermalbench.com/2015/08/12/ek-vardar-f3-140er-140mm-fan/3/
> 
> http://thermalbench.com/2015/10/31/thermalright-ty-147a-140mm-fan/3/
> 
> Just get the Arctic P14 and see how they do. Two of them at 1200 RPM should pull a lot of air without making much noise at all.


VSG has done very good fan testing and reviews. He and I have talked a lot about different fans over the years. You say he says TY-147 is worse, but VGS scores it as good as ML140, 5% below NF-A14 and 10% below Vardar 140. Besides, Vardar fans were a flash in the pan. Making news (not all good) for a year or so and almos nothing sense.



I and others I know have used TY-14x series fans as case fans in many Define cases with excellent results. Same applies to using PH-F140MP as intakes in Define and other restrictive airflow cases, all giving us excellent airflow with excellent low noise levels. 



This is actual hands on experience .. quite different to your reading a reveiw and making claims. 



Your claim of only using 2x 140mm fans as front intakes, regardless of what fans they are will have a very hard time supplying enough airflow to 3x 80/90mm GPU cooler fans and 140mm CPU cooler fan, even if they are running a much higher speed making much more noise. Coolers are not as restrictive as case vents with filters  and 3x 80mm fans can easily be moving about 100cfm at approx 2000rpm, 3x 90mm can be 100-130cfm at 1700-2000rpm .. that's significantly more air then 1 of 2 140mm front intake fans can supply, because 1x 140mm of airflow is needed for 140mm fan/s on CPU cooler. 



Would be nice if @VSG would chime in on this thread.


----------



## Exilon

doyll said:


> VSG has done very good fan testing and reviews. He and I have talked a lot about different fans over the years. You say he says TY-147 is worse, but VGS scores it as good as ML140, 5% below NF-A14 and 10% below Vardar 140. Besides, Vardar fans were a flash in the pan. Making news (not all good) for a year or so and almos nothing sense.
> 
> I and others I know have used TY-14x series fans as case fans in many Define cases with excellent results. Same applies to using PH-F140MP as intakes in Define and other restrictive airflow cases, all giving us excellent airflow with excellent low noise levels.
> 
> This is actual hands on experience .. quite different to your reading a reveiw and making claims.
> 
> Would be nice if @VSG would chime in on this thread.


Why are you saying a fan is X% better on the arbitrary scoring? Look at the performance charts VSG provided. 



















My HANDS ON EXPERIENCE with NF-A14, ML140, and Vardar 140 is that they're nearly identical in performance and agree with VSG's measurements. If VSG says F140MP and TY-14x are worse than those three, I'll trust VSG's measurements.

My HANDS ON EXPERIENCE also tells me that the PH-F140MP are awful at front case fan duty on the Enthoo Pro compared to the the Vardar 140.

Also, I know exactly why the Vardar 140 just kind of trailed off. I have 8 of them sitting in a closet, 4 of them pretty much gifts from EK RMA department, because all of them except 2 had ballbearing issues, grinding, or PWM whining.


----------



## JackCY

Exilon said:


> I'm actually upset at this whole situation. Went through Vardar 140, ML140, NF-A14 fans, all essentially side-grades, and then some $30 per 5 pack from Arctic blows them all out of the water...


Possible, for me the price alone makes it. The performance is not 4x worse at 4x lower price. Making all these Corsair, Noctua, even Phanteks and Thermalright very pricey and poor value. Corsair, Noctua and other big brands (Arctic is big too) make an effort to get their products into shops so people can buy it but some of the smaller brands don't and getting their fans and coolers can be difficult in some regions.



ciarlatano said:


> That's not a counterargument. I was merely pointing out that reviews are all over the place on these, and all from small sites and/or tested in ways that really show nothing. With all of the attention these seem to be getting, I would love to see some testing from someone like VSG.


Thermalbench is not publishing anything if that's what you mean by VSG. Last fan reviewed: October 12, 2017



ciarlatano said:


> The point is......_*why can't we just get a decent review of the Arctic P Series fans???????*_


There is no money in doing so and big reviewers that often do CPU/GPU/maybe some mobos and RAM/SSD don't bother with expensive hardware setups to test PSUs, FANs, even Monitors (at least not properly beyond advertising specs), ...

Finding a decent review of any fan is a miracle because you also need a comparison to other fans. Having a good review without any comparison is fairly useless.



doyll said:


> Whatever excuse we try and use, it doesn't change the fact they have a serious anomoly in their testing, one that cannot be explained and one they didn't even try to explain. I can't believe they didn't notice that glaring error and comment on it.


There are mistakes even in large sites/YT channels reviews of CPUs/GPUs etc. you have to read and spot it yourself, realize it's their mistake, typo, some almost can't make one without it. If it gets popularized by viewers/readers then they will go and fix it, address it in next video etc.
Fans don't exactly get the "reader/viewer" hype as GPUs do so these mistakes would get reported and fixed.



liszt17 said:


> Hi everyone! I'm thinking about to use the p14 as a case fan. My case is the enthoo pro, without hdd cages. I currently use 2 wing boost 2 140 from alpenföhn as intake, and 2 p12 as outtake. I fairly satisfied with temps, but not with the noise. I want a fan with good airflow at low rpms, because alpenföhns are not so great in this.
> So I want a fan, with good airflow, very silent, and reasonable price.
> I like to ask that, _is the p14 a good fan compared to_ Alpenföhn Wb3/beQuiet! Sw3/Sw3 hs/Noctua nf-a14/nb eloop b14-ps?
> I live in Hungary, and here the prices are ~11 Euro for wb3, ~17-20 Euro for Sw3/Hs, ~22 Euro for NF-A14, and ~23 Euro for b-14 ps. Compared to theese, the p14 pst price in Hungary are ~*6 Euro per piece, and 24 Euro for the 5 pack*...
> So the price of 1 premium fan I can buy 5 piece of p14's.
> I registered mainly for this post, so can I ask, _how perform the p14 in same speed, max speed, same noise comparison?_ In real life, not rewiews.
> Thank you!


F14 are airflow fans with older motor (I think, seems to me). Many blades 9-11+, loves to blow air around sideways, small blades steep angle.
P14 are pressure fans with newer motor. Less blades 5-7, with the P14 blade design (CM uses it too on some of their fans) it pushes air more directionally than scattering it sideways, large blades with extended tips and low angle.

If you've cut grills out, don't use filters or any obstructions then airflow fans are fine such as the F14. For everything else the P14 will likely be better as they can push/pull through the restrictions better.
In an unmodded case there pretty much isn't a spot to put airflow fans.

The cheapest for 5x P14 (non PWM) I've seen is 22 EUR shipped. For PWM PST it's 30 EUR shipped, still cheaper than all the PWM (non PST) I found. You have to look around. 4.5-6 EUR a piece is pretty normal.

There are other brands and popular fans but those may be more local/regional, similar price, who knows what performance and from those if one wants a good design (Thermalright fan blades shape) they suddenly cost more than the Arctics.

Plus the RGB cancer has destroyed many fans. You can look at some Corsair fans, 140mm but the blade diameter is small because they had to cram in a giant RGB ring of plastic, etc.


----------



## Exilon

JackCY said:


> Possible, for me the price alone makes it. The performance is not 4x worse at 4x lower price. Making all these Corsair, Noctua, even Phanteks and Thermalright very pricey and poor value. Corsair, Noctua and other big brands (Arctic is big too) make an effort to get their products into shops so people can buy it but some of the smaller brands don't and getting their fans and coolers can be difficult in some regions.


Yeah the price alone makes it, and outperforming the 4x more expensive fans is just cherry on top. I'm just a little bitter at the other brands because I went through like $150 worth of fans and they all got roasted by a $30 5-pack.


----------



## AlphaC

Exilon have you seen the P12 page recently? They claim to outperform Nf-A12x25...


----------



## BroadPwns

I... Wouldn't call that outperform xD


----------



## doyll

Exilon said:


> Why are you saying a fan is X% better on the arbitrary scoring? Look at the performance charts VSG provided.


Because VSG's overall rating is in %. 

As for your 'hands on experience' .. well, it's not what I or 99% of people I know / read about think. Go ahead and use whatever you want. But please stop trying to draw others down your rabbit-hole.


----------



## Exilon

doyll said:


> Because VSG's overall rating is in %.
> 
> As for your 'hands on experience' .. well, it's not what I or 99% of people I know / read about think. Go ahead and use whatever you want. But please stop trying to draw others down your rabbit-hole.


99% of the people you know and you are wrong, according to a reviewer you claimed was credible. My condolences. Please stop recommending bad fans to newbies.


----------



## Exilon

AlphaC said:


> Exilon have you seen the P12 page recently? They claim to outperform Nf-A12x25...
> 
> View attachment 284672


I have not looked at the P12 page at all, but that is a bold claim. I've seen the Vortez.net review in which the P12 lost to the A12x25 by a small margin, but considering the price that's a good result.

I still have the 120mm adapter I bought when I tried the A12x25 on my 140mm 16FPI radiators. The A12x25 was comparable to the Vardar 140 (and hence NF-A14/ML140) from a perf/noise perspective, which is an impressive result considering the size, but the fan+adapter pricing was too high to justify switching away from the Vardar 140s.

https://www.overclockers.com/noctua-nf-a12x25-fan-review/

Overclockers says the A12x25 are better on 140mm 30FPI rads than the NF-A14.


----------



## AlphaC

Vortez review was on a 21FPI Corsair AIO
https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/arctic_bionix_p120_review,5.html
NF-A12x25 at 2020RPM = 30.8°C delta , 35.5 dBA (36.5 dBA when used on a case)

Bionix P120 at 2070 RPM = 32.5°C delta , 39.1 dBA (38.7 dBA when used on a case)

Corsair ML120 at 1610RPM= 32.9°C delta, 35.6dBA (35.5 dBA when used on a case)

However the review also mentions using a single fan on a 240mm radiator , which doesn't make sense to me?


> We then test the fan’s performance both at 1000 RPM and maximum RPM by running an AIDA64 20-minute stress test while running only a single 120mm fan on the 240mm radiator of the Corsair H100i Pro RGB. This allows us to test single fans as well as multi packs by only relying on a single 120mm fan. We mount the fan under the radiator, inside the case, blowing through the radiator.


----------



## liszt17

Hi! Thank You,and everybody else. So as I have read, the P14 very comparable with the pricier fans. Unfortunately, here in Hungary, some prices are SO ridiculous. For example, the nfa12x25 pwm here costs 33 eur...Ty series fans costs are between 12-20 eur. 
But, if a 6 eur fan compatable with a 22-33 eur fan, I think it should be a bestbuy option.
So I can simpler my question:
I looking for a better 140mm fan than wb2 plus, in airflow, and noise, and low rpm airflow. Case: phanteks entho pro, without hdd cages. I like to use it as intake with mesh front and dust filter, and outtake as well.
_Are the p14 good for this solution?_ If the clear answer is yes, then I'll buy and 5 pack , and put 2 of them front and one to bottom as intake, and one to top and one to rear as outtake. The system is vega 56 pulse fan modded (the image under)+overclocked+ryzen 5 1600 with brocken 2. I satisfied with the p12, and just want to know, the p14 performs even better at the same sound.


----------



## Exilon

AlphaC said:


> Vortez review was on a 21FPI Corsair AIO
> https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/arctic_bionix_p120_review,5.html
> NF-A12x25 at 2020RPM = 30.8°C delta , 35.5 dBA (36.5 dBA when used on a case)
> 
> Bionix P120 at 2070 RPM = 32.5°C delta , 39.1 dBA (38.7 dBA when used on a case)
> 
> Corsair ML120 at 1610RPM= 32.9°C delta, 35.6dBA (35.5 dBA when used on a case)
> 
> However the review also mentions using a single fan on a 240mm radiator , which doesn't make sense to me?


The ML120 1600RPM seem to be doing way better than I expected as well. Dropping nearly 14C with a 600RPM increase while others dropped 10-12C with 1000RPM increase.

I could be convinced that it's a measurement error, but then again the ML120 does seem to be a strong fan: http://thermalbench.com/2016/07/12/corsair-ml120-pro-120-mm-fan/3/

One thing that I forgot to mention: These fans are 27mm thick rather than the usual 25mm. This will make 28/30mm screws unable to reach if you have a gasket or pump mount. I ended up using 35mm + washers.









Grinding Vardar 140 for scale

Yes, the P14 fans are a best buy at their prices. Don't be like me and spend $150 on name brand fans to see them all get rolled by a $6 fan


----------



## doyll

Exilon said:


> 99% of the people you know and you are wrong, according to a reviewer you claimed was credible. My condolences. Please stop recommending bad fans to newbies.


 Wow! You obviously don't understand VSG review standards or are just trying to case trouble. 

No!

The fans I've recommended were also recommended by VSG fan in his overall ratings:


TY-147A SQ *85%*, same rating as Darkside Gentle TYphoon.
TY-143 SQ *90%* and it is same fan design as TY-147A SQ with identical performance at same rpms, but 2500rpm vs 1300rpm and TY-143 has ball bearings.
PH-F140MP *85%.*
EK Vardar FF4-140 80%
EK Vardar F3-140ER 90%
EK Vardar F2-140 85%
EK Vardar F1 140 75%
NF-A14 IPPC-2000 PWM 75%
NF-A14 FLX 85%
Silent Wings 3 140 High Speed *85%*
Silent Wings 3 140 *90%*
ML 140 80%
I included GTs, Vardars, etc. to give a better overall look at Thermalbench fan overall ratings, and it is clear that out of ten fans seven are in the 80-85% with two 75% and only one 90% .. which I believe is the best rating VSG gave any fan tested on Thermalbench.

I wish he had tested and reviewed Arctic P140 & BioniX P140.


----------



## Exilon

How is a summary rating is more relevant than a comparative noise vs flow chart of the fans when discussing fan performance? 

When VSG dings % because the fan is too expensive or lacks accessories or the packaging is plain, does it affect how that fan pulls air through a restriction?

Yes, a high performing fan can be a bad fan. The Vardar 140 is a bad fan; it performs well but the failure rate pretty much killed the line. However the ratings don't reflect the post-purchase experience that would ruin the experience with a high performing fan.


----------



## JackCY

And now it has come to this... a % measurement of fan performance.

A lot of the cooler and fan review sites I've seen are kind of dead now. Remain online but no new content for years.

There is always something better, sure Noctua fans can be better performance/noise but they are far from better performance/price.
P14 are better than P12 to who was asking above, they move more air, similar pressure, specs says a little higher. 120mm side by side to a 140mm fan always appear like small babies.

Didn't notice any defects so far on my 4x P14 PWM PST or 2x P12 PWM. Individually packed because those are often cheaper than the 5 packs if you can buy the 5 pack at all.
The F14 has already seen some use and has a different motor, it's fine but it's not 100% perfect but then even almost all GPU fans I've ever had on GPUs are far from 100% perfect already when new. They probably need to run a while and then they improve their sound signature at least that's been my experience so far with modern fans.

Warranties on fans... the cost of return shipping is same as cost of the fan and possibly more in some countries. So yeah they give you 10 years extended warranty on P PWM fans but are you really going to send it back at your cost?
With Noctua they supposedly will refund you the shipping costs.

What does Noctua have in 140mm PWM... oh yeah, one fan A14, that's it. Same fan blade design as cheapo Silentium PC Sigma Pro, Thermalright TY14x, etc.
In 120mm they have the old F12 and now a new Nidec clone, so much innovation, one design copy of another of another of another.
So where is a Nidec GT 120mm styled 140mm fan? Nowhere.

Pretty much all 140mm fans are 27mm thick.

Even if and I gotta stress the if, as I've yet to have any fan die, one fan dies I still got 4 fans for the price of 1 Noctua/etc. So of course Noctua can afford to send you a new fan in case one dies because you've already paid for it.


----------



## doyll

Exilon said:


> How is a summary rating is more relevant than a comparative noise vs flow chart of the fans when discussing fan performance?
> 
> When VSG dings % because the fan is too expensive or lacks accessories or the packaging is plain, does it affect how that fan pulls air through a restriction?
> 
> Yes, a high performing fan can be a bad fan. The Vardar 140 is a bad fan; it performs well but the failure rate pretty much killed the line. However the ratings don't reflect the post-purchase experience that would ruin the experience with a high performing fan.


VSG's overall rating in % is just that, overall. But the bottom line here is VSG likes and recommends the same fans I do, and TY-147A, PH-F140MP, GTs, etc. are fans we both like and recomend. 

As I have repeatedly said, the Arctic P140 and BioniX P140 are not bad if they can be had for less then a fiver, but that's the super low 5-pack pricing .. which is not always available .. can't find any here in UK at the moment. Compound that with BioniX havin a significantly higher single price (£13.55-21.59 here) and they are no longer competative. Arctic website has BioniX P140 at €17.99 with P140 PWM priced at €8.99 .. that prices BioniX same range as many other 140mm fans with proven historys, .. even P140 at €8.99 has competition. 

All Vardars, at least all 140mm models seem problematic, meaning even though they tested out decent they don't last like they should. I have TY-140 fans that have been in constant use for about 9 years now. 

I suspect these arctic fans will be lucky to last more than 3 .. and I'm being quite kind giving them 3 years.


----------



## deepor

doyll said:


> [...]
> 
> I suspect these arctic fans will be lucky to last more than 3 .. and I'm being quite kind giving them 3 years.



Your guess can't be right because these Arctic fans here have a 10 (ten) year warranty. There's no way the business would offer this kind of warranty if there was something crappy about its bearing or motor, it has to be reliable.


----------



## JackCY

deepor: as I "speculate" above, they make you pay return shipping which means you're likely going to buy a new fan instead at same cost as the return shipping instead. It could have 100 years warranty and probably wouldn't make a dent into their finances. Now if we are talking a more expensive product where return shipping in comparison is a negligible expense then yes each warranty day/week/month/year will cut into company's finances as people will return them.
With fans like Noctua you read it not so rarely how people return, get exchanges, get "free" stuff/adapters/whatever, but the products also cost at least 2x compared to most comparable other... so the buyer already paid for it in advance.
And it's all made in China/Asia anyway, even those fancy Noctuas.
Good luck finding purchase receipts after 5+ years lol so you can RMA anything 

I would gladly buy square Thermalright TY or even the 150mm round ones if they ever bothered to sell any in central EU. Only selected small shops (a couple, etc.) or shops operating from Germany actually sell TR products. Nor are they exactly price competitive fans much. The TR cooler I have I also bought from a shop that operates from Germany. It's not only fans, it's all their products. And this happens to many of the smaller cooling brands. Can have great products but their distribution and availability from retailers/etailers is low. And it does not seem to be changing over time. Even if they did they are often stuck in the mid tier pricing while people often either buy expensive products ("gotta have that popular halo product everyone is talking about") and most buy the cheapest/best value anyway (that's where the bulk of sales is).


----------



## AlphaC

If you're talking about warranty then Thermalright only warranties for two years for their fans. Arctic has 6 years on P12 base model which is really high compared to even Phanteks (150K hour, 5 year) or Noctua NF-A14 (150K hours / 6 year). It's 10 year on the pricier Bionix P120.

There might be a motor difference since the Bionix one mentions motor improvement while the plain (non-PWM) one doesn't.

Older Noctuas were made in Taiwan by the way.


----------



## deepor

I saw the ten year warranty on the P12 and P14 PWM models.

Clicking on all of the P fans on Arctic's website, it's six years on the models without PWM, then ten years warranty on all different PWM models (ten years both for sleeve and ball-bearing).

Checking further on their page, they do the same on their old F models. The PWM models are ten years (also the sleeve bearing models, not just the ball-bearing models). The non-PWM models are six.


----------



## gupsterg

doyll said:


> I suspect these arctic fans will be lucky to last more than 3 .. and I'm being quite kind giving them 3 years.


I'm upto ~22mths with the 6x F12 on my TR rig.


----------



## liszt17

Hi! If anyone owns both the p12 and p14 arctic fans, can check the max noise and airflow compared between theese 2 for me? What I asking for is the noise and airflow in same and max rpm. I have 2 p12's in home, and can calculate the results in my case, I hope...Thanks!


----------



## doyll

deepor said:


> Your guess can't be right because these Arctic fans here have a 10 (ten) year warranty. There's no way the business would offer this kind of warranty if there was something crappy about its bearing or motor, it has to be reliable.


 What AlphaC said. :thumb:
Most buyers don't use warranty even in first year unless item was quite expensive. When product fails with warranty (especially lower cost items) they don't think it's worth the time to bother. Add in the time and hassle it takes plus shipping costs to return them and it can often cost as much to use warranty as buy new ones. 

Computer recycle center near me has mountain of CLCs that started shortly after they were first released .. definitely still under warranty but owners didn't use them. I used to check monitors, hdd's etc. for manufacture date and pay a few quid for newer ones, then get warranty replacements .. untill they started requiring sales receipt. :thumbsdow

Many peeps think like you did here; that warranty is a gauge of life expectancy. Reality is it';s more advertising gimmick / false life expectancy than anything else. 

Sme applies for mail-in rebates. Most buyers of items with mail-in rebates never process their rebates.

All that said, I just got my espresso machine replaced under warranty.


----------



## ShogoXT

My judgement of these fans are they are great for the price. I use the non pwm p14s hooked up to a 3 stage fan controller. 

They do make noise if you don't use rubber gaskets or other pads. Also they sound a little high pitched at the middle settings. 

Dead silent on the minimum setting (5 or 7v? Who knows). Highest setting is louder than I would like, but it's summer and can't complain. Besides my gpu is mostly at fault.


----------



## Exilon

Mine are fine without pads, but they're the PWM version.

Interestingly enough, only the PWM version advertises having a new low vibration motor design










Mention of this is absent in the non-PWM spec sheet.

====

Also Arctic P120 review vs ML120 on a high FPI radiator at various RPM


----------



## doyll

While on the surface review it appears Arctic are much better, but there are many things that make me wonder. At 8:40 in his review of ML120 fans he recommended them.  





 If you listen to his talk about his system at beginnng of that video he's running stock fans in Define case .. something all experienced Define case users know doesn't work out well. He also says his radiator and case fans are all running at full speed all the time .. most experienced computer users/builders have all fans speed controlled based on component temps. From that kind of thing I get the distinct impression he's quite new at testing/comparing products and knowing which are best. 



We need test results from people like VSG and Cooling Technique.


----------



## liszt17

Im currently testing the p12 pwm pst against wb2 plus 140 and phanteks f140sp (stock entho pro fan) in the mentioned case, as a case fan. I'll post the results, when Im done. Since I dont have proper test equipment, the noise test will be done mostly by my phone and ear, and because I dont have an anemometer, I have to monitor the temps.


----------



## doyll

liszt17 said:


> tIm currently testing the p12 pwm pst against wb2 plus 140 and phanteks f140sp (stock entho pro fan) in the mentioned case, as a case fan. I'll post the results, when Im done. Since I dont have proper test equipment, the noise test will be done mostly by my phone and ear, and because I dont have an anemometer, I have to monitor the temps.


Monitoring temps with same number & size of fans in case is reasonalbe way to test fans. PH-F140SP are decent fans. No idea about Alpenfohn 140mm Wing Boost 2 plus .. assuming they are what you are referring to.


----------



## JackCY

AlphaC said:


> If you're talking about warranty then Thermalright only warranties for two years for their fans. Arctic has 6 years on P12 base model which is really high compared to even Phanteks (150K hour, 5 year) or Noctua NF-A14 (150K hours / 6 year). It's 10 year on the pricier Bionix P120.
> 
> There might be a motor difference since the Bionix one mentions motor improvement while the plain (non-PWM) one doesn't.
> 
> Older Noctuas were made in Taiwan by the way.





deepor said:


> I saw the ten year warranty on the P12 and P14 PWM models.
> 
> Clicking on all of the P fans on Arctic's website, it's six years on the models without PWM, then ten years warranty on all different PWM models (ten years both for sleeve and ball-bearing).
> 
> Checking further on their page, they do the same on their old F models. The PWM models are ten years (also the sleeve bearing models, not just the ball-bearing models). The non-PWM models are six.


Yes.

4pin PWM 10 years
3pin 6 years



liszt17 said:


> Hi! If anyone owns both the p12 and p14 arctic fans, can check the max noise and airflow compared between theese 2 for me? What I asking for is the noise and airflow in same and max rpm. I have 2 p12's in home, and can calculate the results in my case, I hope...Thanks!


P14 is better. But that's "always" the case with fans given everything else is same. Of course P14 can move more air.

P14 > F14, similar airflow amount and it is focused, similar noise but better pressure
P14 > P12, more airflow, negligibly better pressure (has higher blade tip speed)

Yes the P series spin faster than F series but the noise is comparable at equal airflow.
P series has a focused airflow, that picture in their gallery and on box is not just marketing, this blade design really does that, where as most other fans have a scattered blow to sides airflow and will also struggle to push against a resistance with air escaping around the edges between blades and frame.

Putting any fan's intake closer than 25mm to a grill/fins/radiator will make it louder.

If you can fit 140mm fans then use those, if not then well have to stick to 120mm.
The P PWM motor noise is deep and only heard up close, didn't notice any crazy vibrations but of course it's not a precisely per blade balanced high speed turbine.

I would go for the PWM despite their slightly higher cost, probably better motor and can be easily controlled by any motherboard in any amount.

The only F14 I have is from pre P series era and it's used as air forwarder with no restriction in front or behind it as I cut all the grills out of course from the case.


----------



## ciarlatano

Exilon said:


> Also Arctic P120 review vs ML120 on a high FPI radiator at various RPM
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D0LXN0e_84&t=299


All those monetized links to purchase the product that begin the comments.....do you really think he would give anything but a stellar review??????? :doh:


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> All those monetized links to purchase the product that begin the comments.....do you really think he would give anything but a stellar review??????? :doh:


We notice this kind of thing because we've been there and know having lots of sponsors means giving products good reviews regardless of how they actually perform. Because if reviewers don't they loose sponsors and thus their source of free samples to 'test'.


----------



## liszt17

*Test done*



liszt17 said:


> tIm currently testing the p12 pwm pst against wb2 plus 140 and phanteks f140sp (stock entho pro fan) in the mentioned case, as a case fan. I'll post the results, when Im done. Since I dont have proper test equipment, the noise test will be done mostly by my phone and ear, and because I dont have an anemometer, I have to monitor the temps.


Hi again! I'm done with the test. It takes about 2 days afternoon. Im too tired now to a longer explanation, so lets see the "shorter" one. 
Test enviroment: Phanteks Entho pro, vega 56, r5 1600, prime x370 pro, air conditioned room with a Daikin ftxf35a-rxf35a air conditioner. Room themperature are about 24-25 degree Celsius.
Test method: During a 25 min valley loop, monitoring and logging temps with hwinfo&it's phone app, hwr. Fan speed fixed on the gpu and the rear exhaust. Intake set to 50% and 100%.
Fans: Alpenföhn Wing Boost 2
Phanteks PH-F140SP
Arctic P12 PWM PST
In the single fan test, the p12 and the f140sp are on par, both beated the wb2. But in the noise, the f140sp are the worse, the p12-wb2 are on par, mostly. The noise performance winner are the p12, clearly. _Graphs and detailed temps will be later._
Single fan noise, monitored with meizu m6 note, complete system, gpu and cpu fan on minimum, exhasut fan (another p12 pwm) off, from about 50 cm distance:
P12 pwm pst:
10% 0 rpm 18-20 dba 
20% 394 rpm 19 dba
30% 634 rpm 19-20 dba
40% 836 rpm 19-20 dba
50% 1051 rpm 19-20 dba 
60% 1240 rpm 20-21 dba
70% 1433 rpm 20-21 dba
80% 1603 rpm 22-23 dba (very small humming)
90% 1757 rpm 25-26 dba (small humming with a higher pitch)
100% 1901 rpm 29-30 dba (still small humming with an even higher pitch).

F140sp:
35% 594 rpm 25-26 dba
40% 669 rpm 26-27 dba
50% 811 rpm 28-29 dba
60% 933 rpm 29-30 dba (very little wind noise)
70% 1054 rpm 30-31 dba (small wind noise)
80% 1163 rpm 32-33 dba (small wind noise)
90% 1271 rpm 33-34 dba (wind noise)
100% 1360 rpm 34-35 dba (loud wind noise)

WingBoost2 140:
minimum 339 rpm, 19-20 dba
30% 422rpm 20dba
40% 581rpm 21 dba
50% 763rpm 22-23 dba (small hum)
60% 924rpm 24-26 dba (small whine)
70% 1059rpm 27-28 dba (medium noise)
80% 1196rpm 28-29 dba (wind noise)
90% 1196rpm 28-29 dba (wind noise)
100% 1196rpm 28-29 dba (wind noise)

Then I switched to the 2 intake setup. Since I only have one fp140sp, I used it for exhaust on 50% fan speed, and used two wing boost2 or p12 as intake. 50% and 100% fan speed (or on the matching pwm signal). An interesting thing happened, when used the wb2 this time: Its pwm fan cycle moved upper about 20%. This time, the p12 clearly beat the wb2: p12 50% roughly equal with wb2 100%! But it is much more silent! On 100%, the p12 are bit louder than wb2, but definetly more powerful. Note that, one of my p12's are a bit louder than the other, has more "hum" in the upper rpm field, so that's overshadowed the noise test a little. I think 2 perfect p12 fan should equal in sound with wing boost 2. Even with that, the clear noise performance winner are the p12, again!
Noise:
P12: 22-23 dba ambient
10% 0
20% 0
30% 655 rpm 22-23 dba
40% 865 rpm 23-24 dba
50% 1073 rpm 23-24 dba
60% 1250 rpm 24-25 dba (almost inaudible humming)
70% 1433 rpm 25-26 dba (very little humming)
80% 1591 rpm 27-28 dba (little humming)
90% 1744 rpm 30-31 dba (higher pitch humming)
100% 1901 rpm 33-34 dba (even higher pitched humming, caused of the louder p12)

wb2: 22-24 ambient
10% 0
20% 0
30% 0
40% 300 rpm 22-24 dba
50% 484 rpm 24-25 dba
60% 672 rpm 24-25 dba (little "murmuring"-I hope I used the correct word, english isn't my native...)
65% 767 rpm 25-26 dba (murmuring)
70% 833 rpm 25-26 dba (murmuring)
80% 953 rpm 27-28 dba (little humming, still murmuring)
90% 1076 rpm 30-31 dba (definetly murmuring, well audible)
100% 1178 rpm 32-33 dba (audible clinking, wind noise)

*Lastly, the price performance ranking:
*I live in Hungary. The p12 pwm pst costs here 4,6 Euro, the f140sp costs 7,6 Euro, and the Wb2 costed 12 Euro (it is discontiuned now). Best performer: p12, best noise-performance: p12. So the clear winner: *P12 pwm pst!* Detailed temps, noise and temperature comparison graphs later.


----------



## Exilon

Nice work.

These Arctic P14 do have a slightly higher frequency component to them at max speed than I'm used to hearing with the ML140/NF-A14 setup. It's really a first world problem since the P14s are much quieter overall and don't have the mid-100Hz and broadband noise to drown it out.

These dB measurements aren't to scale between the fans. This is just to illustrate the difference in sound profile.

Arctic P14 at 100% The higher pitch humming is coming from the mid-200Hz peak









Arctic P14 at 66% 









Comparison with Vardar/ML140/NF-A14 at 1500RPM (all those three sounded the same tbh)


----------



## JackCY

Thanks both.

What do you use to show the spectrum of sound like that?


----------



## Exilon

You can do it in Audacity with the built-in spectrum tool.


----------



## liszt17

*Detailed graphs*

Hi! As I promised, here are the comparison graphs. The p12 beats everything at 50% with a small margin at least, while remained the most silent of the trio. On 100%, the p12 makes 4-5 degree Celsius difference, while only noisy as the wb2. Please care it as a guideline, because I dont have a professioanl equipment, but I tried to control every variable, so I think it is mostly accurate, for a comparison at least. The last picture is my modded and overclcked Sapphire pulse vega 56  (flashed to 64).
Some note: the Gpu vrm temp 2=the hbm memory vrm temp.


----------



## BroadPwns

I don't think your single fan P12 setup was done correctly, I own P12PWM and at 1400RPM it's definitely far more audible than your score indicate.


----------



## liszt17

BroadPwns said:


> I don't think your single fan P12 setup was done correctly, I own P12PWM and at 1400RPM it's definitely far more audible than your score indicate.


As I wrote, it is just a guideline. Please read the early post 266, where I wrote something to the sound test to every step, where I notice something. And of course, it is not done with a sound meter, just a phone, and my ear. And at about 1400rpm, the p12 sounded fine here, just on the dual fan setup, they do some almost inadublie buzzing on the lower spectrum. Maybe the the sacrifice of these fans are the overall quality standard, I think there are some variety in this, in exchange the overall price performance ratio. I hope it isnt true, of course, maybe I finally decide to buy something in this week, and check it myself.
For anyone who bought the 5 pack of this fan, every fan arrived in one piece, and same quality? Amazon's user reviews are pretty useless for me, since they collect all reviews of different arctic fans on one page.


----------



## Exilon

Yeah, dB measurements should considered relative unless gain and distance is controlled.


----------



## liszt17

Exilon said:


> Yeah, dB measurements should considered relative unless gain and distance is controlled.


The fan noise monitored with meizu m6 note. It"s taken from the complete system, gpu and cpu fan set to minimum, exhasut fan (another p12 pwm) off, from about 50 cm distance, noise floor was about 19-20dba.


----------



## doyll

liszt17 said:


> The fan noise monitored with meizu m6 note. It"s taken from the complete system, gpu and cpu fan set to minimum, exhasut fan (another p12 pwm) off, from about 50 cm distance, noise floor was about 19-20dba.


We need to keep in mind DB is only sound wave pressure level and has nothing to do with what the sound sounds like to use. Some sounds are not as offensive as others.


----------



## ciarlatano

This thread has become like a Linus video. I feel like I know less about the product after reading it than I did going in.


----------



## JackCY

Exilon said:


> You can do it in Audacity with the built-in spectrum tool.


Thanks I thought it may be but forgot to add it to search and was getting weird useless results. Been a while since I played with Audacity.

---

1x F14
2x P12 PWM
4x P14 PWM PST

All individually packaged, arrived fine, no broken blades, no snapped off the shaft, no broken "spider" legs.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> This thread has become like a Linus video. I feel like I know less about the product after reading it than I did going in.


I like your analogy.:thumb:


----------



## Exilon

liszt17 said:


> The fan noise monitored with meizu m6 note. It"s taken from the complete system, gpu and cpu fan set to minimum, exhasut fan (another p12 pwm) off, from about 50 cm distance, noise floor was about 19-20dba.


Right, and that's fine for comparing between three fans in your tests. My comment was directed at the person who thought the dB values were too low.


----------



## Exilon

ciarlatano said:


> This thread has become like a Linus video. I feel like I know less about the product after reading it than I did going in.





doyll said:


> I like your analogy.:thumb:


You came into the thread thinking it's a budget fan with generic case fan performance. All the user feedback and reviews (however spotty they are) contrary to your expectations is causing your confusion.

If you two aren't going to trust any reviews available or the user reports in this thread, go test it yourself. Be the change you want to see in the world.


----------



## ciarlatano

Exilon said:


> You came into the thread thinking it's a budget fan with generic case fan performance. All the user feedback and reviews (however spotty they are) contrary to your expectations is causing your confusion.
> 
> If you two aren't going to trust any reviews available or the user reports in this thread, go test it yourself. Be the change you want to see in the world.


Or, I had no expectations since I have had both great and average experiences with Arctic fans, and was hoping to see some info without huge holes. Could be that.....


----------



## poah

ciarlatano said:


> Or, I had no expectations since I have had both great and average experiences with Arctic fans, and was hoping to see some info without huge holes. Could be that.....


there aren't huge holes.


----------



## doyll

What *Exilon *said. :thumb:


Arctic fans are not terrible fans, but they are low cost and as such do not have the sound and performance of some higher priced fans. I've used Arctic F a few times and found their performance to be okay. I suspect their P series to be better because they have higher pressure rating, thus being able to overcome resistance better. But they willl not have the smooth sound profile of be quiet! Silent Wings 3, PH-F140MP or TY-147A.


----------



## poah

doyll said:


> What *Exilon *said. /forum/images/smilies/thumb.gif
> 
> 
> Arctic fans are not terrible fans, but they are low cost and as such do not have the sound and performance of some higher priced fans. I've used Arctic F a few times and found their performance to be okay. I suspect their P series to be better because they have higher pressure rating, thus being able to overcome resistance better. But they willl not have the smooth sound profile of be quiet! Silent Wings 3, PH-F140MP or TY-147A.


So you’ve extensively used the Arctic fans to come to that conclusion then.


----------



## Exilon

lol obviously neither of them have used the new P-series fans.

The 3 "smooth" fans lose to NF-A14 and ML140 in dB per linear air flow in even low FPI radiators. The F140MP in particular I know is mediocre since I personally wasted money on that just to watch it get roasted by a Vardar 140ER.

P14 demolishes NF-A14 and ML140. It's not even an contest.


----------



## Dogzilla07

Exilon said:


> The F140MP in particular I know is mediocre since I personally wasted money on that just to watch it get roasted by a Vardar 140ER.
> P14 demolishes NF-A14 and ML140. It's not even an contest.


What RPM, what speeds did you do the testing at ?


----------



## Brightmist

@Exilon
dB is just a measure of intensity of sound. You can have different sounds at the same intensity while one can be so irritating that you can't stand being in the same room with the source whereas the other you might not even notice it.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> So you’ve extensively used the Arctic fans to come to that conclusion then.


If you read what I posted (and understand simple English) you would not be asking if I've used Arctic F seroes fans. I have not used Arctic P series or BioniX P which cost as much as TY-147A SQ in Europe3 



Exilon said:


> lol obviously neither of them have used the new P-series fans.
> 
> The 3 "smooth" fans lose to NF-A14 and ML140 in dB per linear air flow in even low FPI radiators. The F140MP in particular I know is mediocre since I personally wasted money on that just to watch it get roasted by a Vardar 140ER.
> 
> P14 demolishes NF-A14 and ML140. It's not even an contest.


If by _"3 "smooth" fans"_ you mean PH-F140MP, TY-147A and Silent Wings 3, I have to wonder if you have actually used any of them. 

As for your _"wasted money ... roasted by a Vardar 140ER" _, there are all kinds of Vardar 140ER owners X-owners that are / were very unhappy with them.

I'm not buying in to what you think is best. Use whatever you want, but please stop talking like you know all about fans, becuase what you are saying is not what competent testers and reviewers have been saying for years. I've already stated as have many others who have tested / used PH-F140MP, TY-147A, Silent Wings, NF-A14 and NF-A15 have found the Noctuas to not sound a niceat similar rpm giving similar performance.

*ciarlatano* said it best:


ciarlatano said:


> This thread has become like a Linus video. I feel like I know less about the product after reading it than I did going in.


----------



## JackCY

Just get a bunch of fans, air cooler + water cooler/radiator, fixed power/heat output plate and compare it like it should be, same achieved cooling performance/temperate vs noise profile and loudness.
A lot of reviews of fans are useless the way they are done. You can have scientifically the bestest fan but what good is it if in real world use it will not perform well.

The manufacturer ratings are a guidance, looking at the blade design and motor quality are more important.

F series is for no resistance, can achieve higher airflow at lower RPM, classic blow it around fan
P series is for resistance, can achieve higher airflow when resisted, needs to spin faster to achieve same airflow with no resistance but the noises are about same at equal no resistance airflow, focused airflow

There is so much snake oil in fan marketing it's almost as bad as audio industry. You gotta go and use it, listen to it yourself.

For 99% of users and computer cases, buy the P series fans, don't bother with F series. Get PWM variant if you can.

I don't think my Macho Rev.A(BW) on 4690K can generate enough heat for the fans to matter, but that's all I could test P14, P12, F14 vs TY-147A vs Gelid Silent 14 vs FDisaster. But then someone will nit pick it anyway and oh no you don't have a pro mic setup to record it etc. It's all subjective. Well of course it is, everything we do is.


----------



## ciarlatano

Exilon said:


> lol obviously neither of them have used the new P-series fans.
> 
> The 3 "smooth" fans lose to NF-A14 and ML140 in dB per linear air flow in even low FPI radiators. The F140MP in particular I know is mediocre since I personally wasted money on that just to watch it get roasted by a Vardar 140ER.
> 
> P14 demolishes NF-A14 and ML140. It's not even an contest.


Obviously I haven't. I've stated it how many times in this thread? It's really peculiar that you are offended that I am interested in seeing some solid info on these fans, and that I find it really odd that there is none around. Sorry if your say-so isn't enough for me. If I said "stock Fractal Design case fans from the Define R4 move more air more quietly than the Arctic P14 in my build" with really no supporting data would you simply take it as gospel? Cuz, you know, it's now on the innerwebz so it must be true.

BTW - how did the Vardar roast the F140MP? Was the 140MP mounted above the Vardar and the Vardar caught fire? Or was this in an oven with carrots, onions and potatoes? It would seem odd to roast a fan, but I guess they would be considered gluten free, so maybe a dietary thing? Did the Vardar at least share some of the F140MP with you, and if so, how was it? Would it be better paired with a white or red?


----------



## liszt17

I finally bougt a f140mp,wingboost 3, and a p14 for testing. I'll post the results later, but I can already tell that the arctic p14 are the winner. I tested 6 fans from 3 manufacturers, the Phanteks f140mp and f140sp, Alpenfoehn wb2 and wb3,and arctic p12 and p14 pwm pst.


----------



## doyll

liszt17 said:


> I finally bougt a f140mp,wingboost 3, and a p14 for testing. I'll post the results later, but I can already tell that the arctic p14 are the winner. I tested 6 fans from 3 manufacturers, the Phanteks f140mp and f140sp, Alpenfoehn wb2 and wb3,and arctic p12 and p14 pwm pst.


When you are already trying to tell us one fan is better than all the others, now can you expect us to believe what you post after doing your so called testing?

By saying P14 is the winner only proves any testing you do is likely to be untruthful .. because you are already telling us which one is best! :buttkick:
I've seen too many accademic research papers doing the same thing to now think anything you claim about anything to be truthful. :helpingha


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> When you are already trying to tell us one fan is better than all the others, now can you expect us to believe what you post after doing your so called testing?
> 
> By saying P14 is the winner only proves any testing you do is likely to be untruthful .. because you are already telling us which one is best! :buttkick:
> I've seen too many accademic research papers doing the same thing to now think anything you claim about anything to be truthful. :helpingha


I read it that way initially also, but I think (and hope) he is saying that he has done the testing, and has the results, but has not yet put it into graphs/spreadsheets/etc.


----------



## Exilon

Dogzilla07 said:


> What RPM, what speeds did you do the testing at ?


The Phanteks lost to the Vardar 140ER in noise&performance on both radiators and filtered intakes through its entire RPM range. But don't just take my word for it:

You can also observe 140MP losing to the the Vardar 140ER in noise per CFM at every point in VSG's testing:
http://thermalbench.com/2015/08/12/ek-vardar-f3-140er-140mm-fan/3/

The Arctic P-series beats the Vardar/ML/NF-A14 fans in noise per CFM at any point within the P14's operating range. I'm grouping them together because there's really no difference between those three (until the Vardar bearings die):
http://thermalbench.com/2016/07/29/corsair-ml140-pro-140-mm-fan/3/

Probably the NF-A14 iPPC will pull ahead in performance since they can go up to 2000RPM but I didn't run them above 1300 RPM due to the noise. 

The P14 at 1600RPM is about as loud as the NF-A14+ML140 at 1200RPM and outperform them quite a bit.



Brightmist said:


> @Exilon
> dB is just a measure of intensity of sound. You can have different sounds at the same intensity while one can be so irritating that you can't stand being in the same room with the source whereas the other you might not even notice it.


Sure, see the previous pages for my spectrum graphs. The P14 has a much softer mid-200Hz noise that isn't covered up by mid-100Hz and broadband >1kHz noise. They share similar sound characteristics to other highly swept axial fans like the A12x25 and GTs.


----------



## Exilon

ciarlatano said:


> Obviously I haven't. I've stated it how many times in this thread? It's really peculiar that you are offended that I am interested in seeing some solid info on these fans, and that I find it really odd that there is none around. Sorry if your say-so isn't enough for me. If I said "stock Fractal Design case fans from the Define R4 move more air more quietly than the Arctic P14 in my build" with really no supporting data would you simply take it as gospel? Cuz, you know, it's now on the innerwebz so it must be true.


Nah, I'm offended that two guys who've been whinging about the lack of "reliable" reviews in this thread since the first page haven't bothered to test themselves and have the gall to claim that these fans are worse than XYZ based on their feelings.

Worse, one of them is being deliberately obtuse by pretending he doesn't know the difference between a concluding % rating vs the noise/CFM charts. At least I hope that's pretending...


----------



## Brightmist

@Exilon
Yea I missed those.
Frequency analysis looks good, references aren't ideal in Noctua/Vardar/Corsair fans tho.
GTs sound alright but I'd like to see them compared especially to Thermalright or SilentWings 3 if you can.

Fan performance generally ends up being a combination of noise/rpm and sound profile anyway as most of these fans do have enough pressure.


----------



## Exilon

Brightmist said:


> @Exilon
> Yea I missed those.
> Frequency analysis looks good, references aren't ideal in Noctua/Vardar/Corsair fans tho.
> GTs sound alright but I'd like to see them compared especially to Thermalright or SilentWings 3 if you can.
> 
> Fan performance generally ends up being a combination of noise/rpm and sound profile anyway as most of these fans do have enough pressure.


Right, I see those two recommended a lot but I didn't see the benefit to switching to them from Vardars, which is why I went to Corsair and then Noctua as my Vardars died one by one...

In dB per CFM, they both lose to Vardars (which are equal to ML140/NF-A14 see https://thermalbench.com/2016/07/29/corsair-ml140-pro-140-mm-fan/3/)

Data pulled from: http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/11/thermalright-ty-147a-sq-140-mm-fan/3/










SW3 putters out in performance and barely reaches performance of Vardar 140 @ 1200 RPM where it's also slightly louder.

TY-147A SQ wasn't even on my shopping list because it maxed out even lower at Vardar 140 @ 900 RPM performance. At 900 RPM, even the Vardars are nearly inaudible.










Yes, the SW3 and TY-147A are quiet for the RPM, but when comparing how much air is moved per RPM or per dB, they don't look all that special.

Unlike with the P14s, I can't go out and swap my entire setup for $50 and change to test so I'm going to have to take VSG's results at face value.


----------



## Miiksu

Arctic P12 seems same as Cooler Master Silencio FP120. Two to three times cheaper. Coolingtechnique has videos of it. It's not best fan but for the 4.18-6.5€ price I would buy it almost any setup.


----------



## Brightmist

@Exilon
Not sure why you're referencing 900 RPM values as these are the values my fans(GT/SW3/TY-147B) run at when the system's mostly idle and they're all inaudible.

Honestly, I find TY-147Bs mostly inaudible on D15 at 1300RPM(max.) and SW3s are even more silent than that at similar RPMs. SW3s begin to make a bit of noticeable noise when passing 1400-1450 RPM in my experience. My GTs also likely make more noise than my 140 mm stuff. I replaced my A14/15s with these and I honestly don't plan to switch back.

Vardar QA issues seem pretty widespread.


----------



## ciarlatano

Miiksu said:


> Arctic P12 seems same as Cooler Master Silencio FP120. Two to three times cheaper. Coolingtechnique has videos of it. It's not best fan but for the 4.18-6.5€ price I would buy it almost any setup.


I had always thought it looked like a Silencio. I have to wonder if it is a rebranded oem. The Silencio is a good fan, I've had a number of them and had good experiences with them.




Brightmist said:


> @Exilon
> Not sure why you're referencing 900 RPM values as these are the values my fans(GT/SW3/TY-147B) run at when the system's mostly idle and they're all inaudible.
> 
> Honestly, I find TY-147Bs mostly inaudible on D15 at 1300RPM(max.) and SW3s are even more silent than that at similar RPMs. SW3s begin to make a bit of noticeable noise when passing 1400-1450 RPM in my experience. My GTs also likely make more noise than my 140 mm stuff. I replaced my A14/15s with these and I honestly don't plan to switch back.
> 
> Vardar QA issues seem pretty widespread.


The Vardar issues also extend to the sound profile, which most find to be very grating and intrusive. Sound pressure level (dB) is only a part of a sound signature, and many don't realize that. A gentle hum at 40 dB is far different than chalk squeaking on a blackboard at 40 dB.


----------



## Exilon

Brightmist said:


> @Exilon
> Not sure why you're referencing 900 RPM values as these are the values my fans(GT/SW3/TY-147B) run at when the system's mostly idle and they're all inaudible.
> 
> Honestly, I find TY-147Bs mostly inaudible on D15 at 1300RPM(max.) and SW3s are even more silent than that at similar RPMs. SW3s begin to make a bit of noticeable noise when passing 1400-1450 RPM in my experience. My GTs also likely make more noise than my 140 mm stuff. I replaced my A14/15s with these and I honestly don't plan to switch back.
> 
> Vardar QA issues seem pretty widespread.


I drew lines on the charts to show iso-dB and iso-RPM performance. 900 RPM is in reference to the TY-147 [email protected] matching Vardar [email protected] 

Yes, your finding of SW3 being better than TY-147 is correct. There is no RPM or CFM range in VSG's charts where the TY-147 surpasses or comes close to the SW3 in performance. 
At $22 (SW3) vs $18 (TY-147) in my region, the small price difference makes the TY-147 a bad buy over the SW3.


----------



## AlphaC

Silencio doesn't come in 1800RPM , it's 1400 or 2400RPM.
https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/case-fan/silencio-fp-120-pwm/
https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/case-fan/silencio-fp-120-pwm-performance-edition/

It's what Cooler Master is using on their new Hyper 212 black by the way (with 2000RPM speed).


Even if it's the same/similar blade design there's probably a different bearing design as well as frame (the hub is attached via straight flanges rather than swept ones); the 10 year warranty and lower pricing on the Arctic fan makes it a contender while the Silencio FP series _wasn't_ (at ~$15-18 each). The low price makes giving Arctic P series a chance palatable.


----------



## Exilon

They're similar at a glance but the design is different. The Arctic P-series has smaller housing to impeller distance, a more aggressive sweep, and a different blade spacing. It's hard to tell from the photos the differences on blade curvature. 

It doesn't seem that much but the a12x25 vs GT results show how small differences in blade design can result in many decibels of difference in noise.

Aside from the 120mm Silencio, all the CM fans with the same impeller design unfortunately have round frames so out of the box they're much more suitable for air coolers.

I don't even know what they were thinking putting them on radiators
https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/cpu-liquid-coolers/masterliquid-ml280-rgb-tr4/

Look at the giant gaps between the radiator housing and the fan. 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cooler-master-masterliquid-pro-280-cooler,5059-2.html
https://www.kitguru.net/components/...ler-master-masterliquid-pro-280-aio-review/5/

Not a surprise it's losing to a 240mm radiator.


----------



## JackCY

CM and Arctic are nothing alike, they each make their own fans. They may have a similar fan blade shape yes but that's about it. I don't think CM makes fans for Arctic really. The fan shapes have been done to death at this point, copy pasting one another, the only newer shapes we often see are useless gimmicks that look "cool" for marketing. Also there is not much that can be altered on an object in such a small shape and simple design as fan blades. Maybe when they start using AI for design there will be some tiny improvement in fan blade shapes.


----------



## deepor

I tried to find good pictures to compare the Silencio FP 120 and the P12 PWM shapes:



















It seems the fan blades are shaped differently, and the center is a very different size.

The P12 photo I found here, under the "gallery" link: https://www.arctic.ac/de_en/p12-pwm.html

And the FP 120 photo I found in the gallery of a newegg page: https://www.newegg.com/cooler-master-r4-sfnl-14pk-r1-case-fan/p/N82E16835103206


----------



## Exilon

Thanks for the comparison, it illustrates the differences quite well. 

I'm surprised by how sloppy the blade tip clearance is for the CM fan. They've made their housing very thin but didn't fill the gap with bigger blades. This gap allows air to bypass the blade and negatively impacts the mechanical efficiency of the fan.


----------



## liszt17

*Arctic p14 , Phanteks F140mp and Alpenfoehn WingBoost3 review*



liszt17 said:


> I finally bougt a f140mp,wingboost 3, and a p14 for testing. I'll post the results later, but I can already tell that the arctic p14 are the winner. I tested 6 fans from 3 manufacturers, the Phanteks f140mp and f140sp, Alpenfoehn wb2 and wb3,and arctic p12 and p14 pwm pst.


Hi! So, here are the results.
Main participants: 
Arctic P14 pwm pst
Alpenfoehn WingBoost 3
Phanteks PH-F140MP and a p12, WingBoost2 and f140sp fans.
*Test enviroment:*
Machine: Asus Prime X370 Pro, Ryzen 5 [email protected], Sapphire Pulse Vega 56 1647/1100, 1010 Hbm fan modded with 2 Noiseblocker Eloop B12-p fans, Phantesk Entho Pro Case, Arctic p12 fan fixed as exhaust, one intake at a time. Temperature controlled with a Daikin FTXF35A/RXF35A air conditioner. Noise measurement done with a Meizu M6 note phone, and my ear, one time in the case, and one time outside.
Softwares used: HwInfo64 6.0-3620 for logging and HwR phone app for real-time monitoring, and Unigine Valley benchmark extreme preset. For fan controling I used ArgusMonitor
Test method: During a 25 min Valley loop monitoring and logging gpu and cpu temps with different fans and rpms. Exhaust and gpu fans fixed to 50%, cpu fan fixed to 62%~1000rpm. Noise floor are about 19 dba, ambient temps are 24 °C.

Noise measurements_ inside_ the case, cpu and gpu fan set to minimum, exhaust disabled, measured from about 50 cm distance. The mentioned noises only for describe the sound profile:


Spoiler



Arctic P14 pwm pst: Very quiet overall, the mentioned noises aren't annoying at all. When changing rpms, the fan slightly noticeable in some rpm ranges.
10% few rpm 19-20 dba
16% 267 rpm 20-21 dba
20% 354 rpm 21 dba
30% 554 rpm 22-23 dba
40% 745 rpm 23-24 dba (almost inaudible "rouououo", small humming)
50% 938 rpm 24-25 dba (ver-very little "hrhrhrhr", some whining when raising rpm) until this point, it disappears in the background
60% 1099 rpm 25-26 dba (little "hrhrhrhr" sound, audible slightly, whining when raising rpm)
70% 1251 rpm 26-27 dba (whining a little, still "hrhr", humming, quiet but audible) the whinig here are the loudest
80% 1409 rpm 27-28 dba (whining ended, almost inaudible droning, some high-pitched hum, still quiet)
90% 1551 rpm 29-30 dba (well audible quiet droning, very minimal rattling)
100% 1691 rpm 32-33 dba (slightly droning, small wind noise)

Phanteks Ph-F140Mp: Nothing serious, but unfortunately it is the loudest fan of the trio, at least a small margin. It's sound profile however not annoying at all. 
10% 562 rpm 19-20 dba
20% 562 rpm 19-20 dba
30% 562 rpm 19-20 dba
40% 742 rpm 22-23 dba (some very little audible "mnmnmnmn"-like sound)
50% 902 rpm 24-25 dba (humming like "nououououoou")
60% 1053 rpm 24-25 dba (very little high and low pitched droning, small buzzing)
70% 1190 rpm 26-27 dba (very little high and low pitched droning, the low pitched droning are louder, but still quiet)
80% 1264 rpm 28-29 dba (litle higher droning, audible)
90% 1430 rpm 31-33 dba (well audible droning, little wind noise)
100% 1551 rpm 33-35dba (audible motor noise, droning, little wind noise, not so bad)

Alpenfoehn WingBoost 3: In measurements this fan are about loud as the p14, but its sound profile slightly comfortabel at maximum rpm. However, there is a significant difference in maximum rpm, at same rpms, the p14 are much more silent.
10% 474 rpm (minimum) 19-20 dba
20% 474 rpm 19-20 dba
30% 474 rpm 19-20 dba
40% 525 rpm 19-21 dba
50% 650 rpm 20-22 dba (produces very little "hrhrhrhr" sound)
60% 762 rpm 22-24 dba (slightly audible droning, very little "hrhrhr" sound)
70% 878 rpm 25-26 dba (very little whining, "hrhrh", almost inaudible droning)
80% 979 rpm 26-27 dba (little whining, "hrhrh", almost inaudible droning, all at higher-pitched)
90% 1126 rpm (max) 31-33 dba (droning as "hrhrhrhrouuu", little wind noise)
100%

None of the three fans are bad, there is no big difference. Until 50%, all three fans basically very quiet.



Here are the _outside_ fan noise measurements. Now all 6 fans are present, measurement taken from 10cm of the front of the fan that sitting in a sound-dampening material.


Spoiler



Arctic P12 pwm pst: THe vibriation at the end are quite audible, but it isn't noticeable if it mounted in a case. Until 90% this is the quetest fan of all fans!
10% few rpm (Argus Monitor didn't recognize it) >19 dba
20% 414 rpm 19 dba 
30% 672 rpm 19-20 dba (inaudible)
40% 894 rpm 26-27 dba (still inaudible, or only audible with bat-ears)
50% 1119 rpm 30-31 dba
60% 1308 rpm 34-35 dba
70% 1490 rpm 36-37 dba
80% 1654 rpm 37-38 dba
90% 1824 rpm 40-41 dba
100% 1979 rpm 43-44 (vibrating a little)

Arctic P14 pwm pst: This fan is very-very quet overall, especially for it's high rpm range, and this is the best performer of all fans, so the noise-perfomance rate are excellent!
10% few rpm (Argus Monitor didn't recognize it) 18-19 dba
20% 354 rpm 19-20 dba 
30% 556 rpm 19-20 dba (inaudible)
40% 745 rpm 26-27 (still almost inaudible, or only audible, if you are Bat(man)
50% 946 rpm 31-32 dba
60% 1121 rpm 36-37 dba
70% 1293 rpm 40-41 dba
80% 1442 rpm 43-44 dba
90% 1588 rpm 45-46 dba
100% 1753 rpm 48-49 (droning a little, audible)

Alpenfoehn WingBoost 2: Very quiet, unfortunately, this is the weakest fan.
10% 344 rpm 19-20 dba
20% 344 rpm 19-20 dba
30% 429 rpm 20-21 dba
40% 587 rpm 26-27 dba (still inaudible)
50% 771 rpm 33-34 dba (ultra-silent "hrhrhrhr")
60% 931 rpm 38-39 dba (small wind noise, extreme silent droning="bzrzrzrz")
70% 1090 rpm 41-42 dba (whining and droning a very little, some wind noise)
80% 1209 rpm (maxed) 44-45 dba (slightly droning, little wind noise)
90% 
100% 

Alpenfoehn WingBoost 3: In measurements, this is loud as the WB2, but slightly more noticeable due to it's sound profile. Nothing serious or annoying, however.
10% 455 rpm 26-27 dba
20% 455 rpm 26-27 dba
30% 455 rpm 26-27 dba
40% 501 rpm 27-28 dba (still inaudible)
50% 612 rpm 32-33 dba (very little audible)
60% 715 rpm 36-37 dba (slightly audible, extreme low droning)
70% 815 rpm 39-40 dba (little wind noise)
80% 906 rpm 42-43 dba (some "rrrr" noise)
90% 1022 rpm (maxed) 44-45 dba (low droning)
100% 

Phanteks Ph-F140Mp: As in the "inside of case" test, this fan is the loudest. It produces an audible droning sound from 50%.
10% 566 rpm 28 dba
20% 566 rpm 28 dba
30% 580 rpm 29-30 dba (almost inaudible)
40% 748 rpm 33-34 dba
50% 912 rpm 37-38 dba (slightly audible, from this point, it more and more droning until the end)
60% 1071 rpm 40-41 dba
70% 1216 rpm 43-44 dba
80% 1350 rpm 45-46 dba
90% 1470 rpm 47-48 dba
100% 1569 rpm 51-52 dba

Phanteks Ph-F140Sp: This is the stock fan of my case. It isn't loud, but producing the same droning as it's brother, but with lower volume due to the lesser max rpm. Inside of a case it isn't noticeable until 90%. 
10% 0
20% 0
30% 0 (starts from 38% voltage, maybe around 4.5 volts)
40% 622 rpm 32-33 dba (slightly audible)
50% 754 rpm 36-37 dba (slightly audible, very-very low droning and wind noise)
60% 863 rpm 38-39 dba (small, low-pitched droning)
70% 968 rpm 40-41 dba (from this until the end, produces droning and wind noise until the end)
80% 1061 rpm 42-43 dba
90% 1155 rpm 44-45 dba
100% 1231 rpm 47-48 dba (little droning and wind noise, audible).

None of theese fans are very loud or bad, but the Phanteks products are the loudest, the Alpenfoehns are quiet but sligtly weak, and the Arctics are absolute outstanding noise/performance champions. At around 27 dba, all fans almost inaudible. Now next to the performance measurements


 Please take the noise measurement as a guideline, since I dont have any professional equipment or calibrated sound meter.

*Performance:*I made several comparison diagrams, most of them from the three main fans, and a complete diagram with all fans and settings with measured noises for the gpu averages, and a simpler complete averages for the cpu. Measurements taken from the last 15 min of the Valley loop, after the heating up time. 
Here are the diagrams:
Cpu temps of 3 main fan
Gpu Core temps
Gpu Memory temps
Gpu HotSpot temps
Gpu Core Vrm temps
Gpu Memory Vrm temps
Cpu Averages, ALL fans
Gpu Averages and Noise, ALL fans
Noise comparisn graph outside the case, ALL fans
*Prices:*
Here in Hungary, the Arctic p12 pwm pst costs 4.6 Euro, p14 pwm pst costs 5,7 euro, Alpenfoehn WingBoost 2 costed 12.3 Euro (its discontinued now), WingBoost 3 costs 11.4 Euro, Phanteks ph-f40mp costs 11.9 Euro, and the ph-f140sp costs 7.8 Euro.

After all this, I clearly got the winner for me: The Arctitc p14! Best performer, best noise performance ratio, cheap. Only main complain maybe the ultra cheap packing and only four unpainted screws as accsessory. But on this price point, this isn't an issue at all, until the shipping done as carefully. 
Definetly recommend it!


----------



## Exilon

Good work. Getting data out of case fan performance using component temperature is a lot more work than just slapping the fan on radiators and measuring the water temperature like I did.

Can try to mod your GPU with the P12 as well? 

The 120mm eLoops is only trading blows with NF-F12 which is a fairly mediocre pressure fan

https://thermalbench.com/2015/04/10/blacknoise-nb-eloop-b12-4-120mm-fan/3/

http://thermalbench.com/2016/07/12/corsair-ml120-pro-120-mm-fan/3/










If the YouTuber that did the comparison with the ML120 is right, then the two P12s you have should outperform the eLoop especially pressed against a heatsink backstopped by a PCB.

Your optimal setup may be (in order of importance of temperature):

2x P12 for the modded GPU heatsink. You already have them, might as well try?
2x P14 for the front filtered intake
Best remaining fan in free air for exhaust. CFMs will be high for most fans because it's just pushing into a sparse grille, so it's just a matter of what pushes most air at the lowest noise.


----------



## liszt17

Exilon said:


> Good work. Getting data out of case fan performance using component temperature is a lot more work than just slapping the fan on radiators and measuring the water temperature like I did.
> 
> Can try to mod your GPU with the P12 as well?
> 
> The 120mm eLoops is only trading blows with NF-F12 which is a fairly mediocre pressure fan
> 
> https://thermalbench.com/2015/04/10/blacknoise-nb-eloop-b12-4-120mm-fan/3/
> 
> http://thermalbench.com/2016/07/12/corsair-ml120-pro-120-mm-fan/3/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the YouTuber that did the comparison with the ML120 is right, then the two P12s you have should outperform the eLoop especially pressed against a heatsink backstopped by a PCB.
> 
> Your optimal setup may be (in order of importance of temperature):
> 
> 2x P12 for the modded GPU heatsink. You already have them, might as well try?
> 2x P14 for the front filtered intake
> Best remaining fan in free air for exhaust. CFMs will be high for most fans because it's just pushing into a sparse grille, so it's just a matter of what pushes most air at the lowest noise.


I already tried it, and the arctic p12 lost against the eloop b12-p. Not much however, I try to describe it: What the p12 done at ~1860rpm (max) on the gpu, the eloop do it at ~1630 rpm (71%). The heatsink not modified, I just removed the shroud, and ziptied 2 fans to it. Pulse is a short pcb model, the second fan can push the air trough the heatsink. But the p12 at 1800rpm only loud as the eloop 1600rpm. Main reason why I replaced the p12 on the gpu, because I want some backup performance. All this was measured under 240w load (FirestrikeUltra stress), until 200w (Valley), the p12 more than enough. Vega is pretty powerhungry, even if it undervolted, so for a lower povered card, the p12 enough, I think. Unfortunately, the eloop reviews of Coolingtechnique slightly misleading, because the max rpms there not reaching their maximums. The b12-p here maxes at 2074 rpm, there only reached 1600rpm. I tried the eloop b12-4, but that is a sligtly loud fan, and hard to control it. Its minimal rpm around 1138, and I can hear it a little. The b12-p much better, can controlled between 400-2000rpm, with the gpu original fan header.


----------



## ciarlatano

liszt17 said:


> Hi! So, here are the results.


Thanks for sharing and all of the effort that went into it. Some interesting info for sure.


----------



## doyll

liszt17 said:


> Hi! So, here are the results.


Thanks for all your hard work. Some interesting data. I wish testing had been with fans at same RPM instead of % of max speed. Then we could compare how fans perform at same speeds.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Thanks for all your hard work. Some interesting data. I wish testing had been with fans at same RPM instead of % of max speed. Then we could compare how fans perform at same speeds.


There is a good amount of info with the fans at very close rpm. In this particular usage, the P14 is essentially equivalent to the F140MP. The 850-950 rpm range is obviously the most important for most, and they hold up really well there. That's very impressive at the price point. It's a singular scenario, but one that has a lot of implications.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> There is a good amount of info with the fans at very close rpm. In this particular usage, the P14 is essentially equivalent to the F140MP. The 850-950 rpm range is obviously the most important for most, and they hold up really well there. That's very impressive at the price point. It's a singular scenario, but one that has a lot of implications.


Indeed, PH-F140MP & P14 do seem to have similar performance in rpm range we most often use under load .. at least peeps like you and me.


----------



## liszt17

doyll said:


> Thanks for all your hard work. Some interesting data. I wish testing had been with fans at same RPM instead of % of max speed. Then we could compare how fans perform at same speeds.


I have tested the p14 at 36% and 87%, which is about equal to the 50% of wb3, and 100% of f140mp, and tested the wb3 at 80% which is about equal the 50% of p14. I dont have the time for more, unfortunately.


----------



## Elrick

liszt17 said:


> Hi! So, here are the results.
> Main participants:
> Arctic P14 pwm pst
> Alpenfoehn WingBoost 3
> Phanteks PH-F140MP and a p12, WingBoost2 and f140sp fans.
> 
> 
> After all this, I clearly got the winner for me: The Arctitc p14! Best performer, best noise performance ratio, cheap. Only main complain maybe the ultra cheap packing and only four unpainted screws as accsessory. But on this price point, this isn't an issue at all, until the shipping done as carefully.
> Definetly recommend it!



Thank you for a thorough examination of the most interesting fans currently available (silence and power) :thumb: .

Have already placed an order for both Arctic P120 and P140 models (to be used in separate CPU coolers).


----------



## doyll

Elrick said:


> Thank you for a thorough examination of the most interesting fans currently available (silence and power) :thumb: .
> 
> Have already placed an order for both Arctic P120 and P140 models (to be used in separate CPU coolers).


Could you also do some testing? The more user comparisons we have the better. :thumb:


----------



## JackCY

doyll said:


> Thanks for all your hard work. Some interesting data. I wish testing had been with fans at same RPM instead of % of max speed. Then we could compare how fans perform at same speeds.


Speeds don't matter. What does is performance (temperature of cooled item) vs noise. Considering power consumption is borderline irrelevant for these sort of fans.

PWM % comparison isn't far off since the less blades higher RPM fans produce same noise as more blades at lower rpm. Similar airflow, similar noise level. 1300 vs 1700rpm etc.

F14 PWM 1350 rpm 74.0 CFM, 9 blade
TY147A 1300 rpm 73.6 CFM, 7 blade
P14 PWM 1700 rpm 72.8 CFM, 5 blade


----------



## doyll

JackCY said:


> Speeds don't matter. What does is performance (temperature of cooled item) vs noise. Considering power consumption is borderline irrelevant for these sort of fans.
> 
> PWM % comparison isn't far off since the less blades higher RPM fans produce same noise as more blades at lower rpm. Similar airflow, similar noise level. 1300 vs 1700rpm etc.
> 
> F14 PWM 1350 rpm 74.0 CFM, 9 blade
> TY147A 1300 rpm 73.6 CFM, 7 blade
> P14 PWM 1700 rpm 72.8 CFM, 5 blade


Easy to make such claims and hypothesize. Postng manufacturers' cfm rating tells us nothing but how much air they move when there is no obstructions at all .. like mounted in middle of room. 

Now if you posted their performance with 1mm H2O more pressure on exhausts side of fan cfm would mean something. 

I still prefer comparing fans' noise level and compoent temps at same rpm speeds .. like 550rpm 800rpm, 1050rpm, 1300rpm, 1500rpm, etc. 

Now if tester tested fans using db or component temp as baseline reference point for compariosns that would be good too. B ut just using % of total speed does not give us a reference point.


----------



## Elrick

doyll said:


> Could you also do some testing? The more user comparisons we have the better. :thumb:



You're asking an ignorant Old Man to do sophisticated testing here.....?

Might as well ask for the exact calculations for a Mars cruise instead, it would be far easier. Because I concentrate on other areas, PC purchasing has always been a slight hobby to dab my fat toe in.

Hence what I know about PC hardware couldn't fill a thimble half way. I know the young here on OCN would go overboard in examining everything there is about fans and heat-sinks but alas my own laziness prevents me from even putting together a PC from scratch unless I first ingest some Bundy & Coke and waste a lot of time watching some cricket on a lazy afternoon, when the kids are out.

That is why most of my experience comes from eventual failure to assemble anything when it comes to PC hardware. If I listed all my failures and the money wasted here on my attempted projects, anyone here on OCN could build their own house with all of my losses (over a 40 year period).


----------



## JackCY

Elrick: import our solar system in KSP (a game) and try it out lol

---

Don't care about CFMs or mm of H2O lifted in some tube. Noise vs temperature for what price for how long. The rest is irrelevant.


----------



## Bratislav

100% radiator, 1000rpm radiator(Arctic P12 PWM PST - 35 dba), 500rpm radiator:


----------



## BroadPwns

Ich kann nicht into Deutsch. What's the context behind the charts?


----------



## ciarlatano

BroadPwns said:


> Ich kann nicht into Deutsch. What's the context behind the charts?


Apprently, in descending order:

100% fan speed through what appears to be an EK SE 120 (because results there wouldn't be entirely dictated by the fan's max speed or anything..... :doh: )
1000 rpm fan speed through what appears to be an EK SE 120
500rpm fan speed through what appears to be an EK SE 120

I'm wondering if he mixed up the Noctua labels. The two Noctuas perform inverse to what every other test shows, and what Noctua states should be the result of the two used in the test. Also, the BQ Pure Wings 2 should be performing identically at the same speed regardless of whether they are PWM or variable voltage given that they are the same physical fan - not sure what's up with that variation.


----------



## poah

BroadPwns said:


> Ich kann nicht into Deutsch. What's the context behind the charts?


not temps anyway - looks just like air flow and noise against a rad or a case.


----------



## doyll

Translation of text on Youtube says:
_"The fans were tested both as a case fan and on radiators."_
But which grahp is which I don't know. I won't even guess what to guess which is which.
Hopefully a German language member can sort us out.


----------



## Miiksu

ciarlatano said:


> I had always thought it looked like a Silencio. I have to wonder if it is a rebranded oem. The Silencio is a good fan, I've had a number of them and had good experiences with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Vardar issues also extend to the sound profile, which most find to be very grating and intrusive. Sound pressure level (dB) is only a part of a sound signature, and many don't realize that. A gentle hum at 40 dB is far different than chalk squeaking on a blackboard at 40 dB.


I'm too using FP120 fans. It's my primary water cooling setup. Front has 240mm radiator push/pull with FP120 3PIN and top has 360mm radiator with push with FP120 4PIN.

I ordered one and its "almost" same as Cooler Master's. The fan blades are more narrow and longer, because of the center is smaller. Cooler Master silencio fans motor housing is bigger and fatter blades. It has good pressure and airflow and low noise. I'm thinking now to replace all my Cooler Master fans with those. It's also very cheap.


----------



## JackCY

The graphs are named in top comment and he also says it, which for the technical terms is not that far from English, just another Germanic language.

If one wants to pay Noctua's extortion then sure that newest clone fan (A12) of theirs at 120mm is OK performance wise. But where is that fan in 140mm? Nowhere.
Nowadays the focus on small 120mm fans is only because people bought into the CLC/AIO/custom water nonsense at 120mm.

They should use a graph title for sure. For me YT won't ever offer any translation at all either, blocked by uploader or YT fails to offer it.

Performance as expected for the design, both at low and high rpm.


----------



## AlphaC

Isn't Arctic P12 silent slower max speed than the PWM version? The bearing must be much worse (which is probably the reason for the shorter warranty) if the noise is that much higher at 1050 RPM vs the PWM version when both are at ~1000RPM.


Keep in mind EK SE 120 slim radiator is 22 FPI (similar to most closed loop).


----------



## D-EJ915

I'd purchased some NB14-3s for my new rig and with their rather "interesting" (bad) performance with fan filters I decided to get some more random recommended fans and give them a test just for my own amusement. The long thread and extremely cheap price led me to buy some of these P14s. A funny thing about the nb-eloops is if you have them blow through a filter there is more air blowing back the wrong way than through the filter which is funny. Filter is silverstone high flow FF144 which I put on the intake side without them on the radiator sitting on top of the psu powering them on the edge of it.

Noiseblocker nb-eloop B14-3 (3-pin) #1
Noctua NF-A14 iPPC-2000 (3-pin) #2
Cooljag Everflow R121425SL (3-pin) #2
Thermalright TY-143 (pwm) #2
EK Vardar 140S (pwm) #3
Arctic P14 PWM PST (pwm obviously) #4
Phanteks PH-F140MP (pwm) #5

I set my lamptron FC5V3 to have them all at 1080 RPM (it is hard to balance them and its RPM meter goes in steps, I feel it is maybe not the best controller) and had them blow through my EK CE 140mm radiators (2x 420 ones) set next to each other. Fans/rads were all blowing the same direction oriented in a straight line sitting on the end of a table so edge of rad was at edge of table(rads end to end). Since it has 6 ports I swapped out the TY fan with Cooljag, the rest were the same since they 

My testing methodology is me moving my hand in front of it to feel the airflow (lol) which is hardly a real way to test but hey it is just for fun.

Anyway, Noctua, Thermalright and Cooljag all felt the same which considering the fans are basically identical was not surprising. The Thermalright has bearing noise but it is ball bearing. I tried it in 2 orientations and it did not seem to matter that it was a round frame. 

nb-eloop had the highest amount of airflow but like I said it suffers the most from fan filter. It also has the smallest dead spot behind the motor.

The other three performed much worse but the EK was the 3rd best after the tie of the 3 duplicate fans. I had vardars before and they all started making horrible noise (even the 120) so I had them all RMA'd and just put them aside. I would never recommend them to anyone but I bought some new ones since they were 5 dollars on sale and in a pinch they work alright. These were pretty good with the filter.

Arctic was pretty good not quite as good as EK but pretty close, the EK was already making noise I could hear so overall I would pick arctic it had less annoying noise. This one also seems to do pretty decently with a filter. I feel this is a really good buy if you are going for lower rpm fan.

Phanteks was last and pretty disappointing. It had lowest airflow and was the loudest and most annoying noise (besides bearing on TY fan) with bad filter performance too. Mine also has a bad wobble to it but I do not think that would impact performance much but without a second one I cannot tell. (edit: this also had the biggest dead spot behind the motor)

I'm going to keep all of them and put them to use except the phanteks I am returning that one.

Side note is I have phanteks 14PE cooler already so I had an idea their fan would be pretty bad since the fans that come with that are not that good and the fan blades are the same design.

Thanks for joining my fun but hardly scientific experiment.


----------



## ShogoXT

One of my P14 s in the front is now clicking when on full controller setting. I assume 12v. 

That sucks


----------



## Miiksu

ShogoXT said:


> One of my P14 s in the front is now clicking when on full controller setting. I assume 12v.
> 
> That sucks


My P12 does not make any annoying noises. Actually smooth sounding. Hope that clicking sound is not feature. I had some clicky and rattling noises with older Arctic fans.


----------



## AlphaC

D-EJ915 said:


> I'd purchased some NB14-3s for my new rig and with their rather "interesting" (bad) performance with fan filters I decided to get some more random recommended fans and give them a test just for my own amusement. The long thread and extremely cheap price led me to buy some of these P14s. A funny thing about the nb-eloops is if you have them blow through a filter there is more air blowing back the wrong way than through the filter which is funny. Filter is silverstone high flow FF144 which I put on the intake side without them on the radiator sitting on top of the psu powering them on the edge of it.
> 
> Noiseblocker nb-eloop B14-3 (3-pin) #1
> Noctua NF-A14 iPPC-2000 (3-pin) #2
> Cooljag Everflow R121425SL (3-pin) #2
> Thermalright TY-143 (pwm) #2
> EK Vardar 140S (pwm) #3
> Arctic P14 PWM PST (pwm obviously) #4
> Phanteks PH-F140MP (pwm) #5
> 
> I set my lamptron FC5V3 to have them all at 1080 RPM (it is hard to balance them and its RPM meter goes in steps, I feel it is maybe not the best controller) and had them blow through my EK CE 140mm radiators (2x 420 ones) set next to each other. Fans/rads were all blowing the same direction oriented in a straight line sitting on the end of a table so edge of rad was at edge of table(rads end to end). Since it has 6 ports I swapped out the TY fan with Cooljag, the rest were the same since they
> 
> My testing methodology is me moving my hand in front of it to feel the airflow (lol) which is hardly a real way to test but hey it is just for fun.
> 
> Anyway, Noctua, Thermalright and Cooljag all felt the same which considering the fans are basically identical was not surprising. The Thermalright has bearing noise but it is ball bearing. I tried it in 2 orientations and it did not seem to matter that it was a round frame.
> 
> nb-eloop had the highest amount of airflow but like I said it suffers the most from fan filter. It also has the smallest dead spot behind the motor.
> 
> The other three performed much worse but the EK was the 3rd best after the tie of the 3 duplicate fans. I had vardars before and they all started making horrible noise (even the 120) so I had them all RMA'd and just put them aside. I would never recommend them to anyone but I bought some new ones since they were 5 dollars on sale and in a pinch they work alright. These were pretty good with the filter.
> 
> Arctic was pretty good not quite as good as EK but pretty close, the EK was already making noise I could hear so overall I would pick arctic it had less annoying noise. This one also seems to do pretty decently with a filter. I feel this is a really good buy if you are going for lower rpm fan.
> 
> Phanteks was last and pretty disappointing. It had lowest airflow and was the loudest and most annoying noise (besides bearing on TY fan) with bad filter performance too. Mine also has a bad wobble to it but I do not think that would impact performance much but without a second one I cannot tell. (edit: this also had the biggest dead spot behind the motor)
> 
> I'm going to keep all of them and put them to use except the phanteks I am returning that one.
> 
> Side note is I have phanteks 14PE cooler already so I had an idea their fan would be pretty bad since the fans that come with that are not that good and the fan blades are the same design.
> 
> Thanks for joining my fun but hardly scientific experiment.



If you look at VSG's results (and the fan blade angle) the PH-F140MP is meant for high restriction. The noise to CFM ratio is decent, but if you're using RPM as the standardizing method then it is going to look poor.


It's a similar situation for the XP version: http://www.coolingtechnique.com/rec...rumentali-phanteks-ph-f120xp-e-ph-f140xp.html


----------



## ciarlatano

AlphaC said:


> If you look at VSG's results (and the fan blade angle) the PH-F140MP is meant for high restriction. The noise to CFM ratio is decent, but if you're using RPM as the standardizing method then it is going to look poor.
> 
> 
> It's a similar situation for the XP version: http://www.coolingtechnique.com/rec...rumentali-phanteks-ph-f120xp-e-ph-f140xp.html



Yes, that is a situation with the MPs that make testing a little odd. In practical actual usage, airflow/noise is far more important than airflow/rpm.


----------



## D-EJ915

AlphaC said:


> If you look at VSG's results (and the fan blade angle) the PH-F140MP is meant for high restriction. The noise to CFM ratio is decent, but if you're using RPM as the standardizing method then it is going to look poor.
> 
> 
> It's a similar situation for the XP version: http://www.coolingtechnique.com/rec...rumentali-phanteks-ph-f120xp-e-ph-f140xp.html


Hmm in that case it is a bit odd they use that design for the 14PE heatsink since the fin stack on there is not very close together. Aside from it wobbling it seems nicely made and the rubber pads on it are quite nice.


----------



## doyll

Just found below info in another thread. 


BroadPwns said:


> Sorry for necro, but apparently, YOU CAN dismantle Arctics P12/P14. You need to pull it a little bit till you see it caught a distance from the back skeleton, then you gently twist it around and continue to pull with slightly more strength. It will eventually pop out, just did it to my P14 with no casuality. Just like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF9...b3dBk2t1AIHF9-dPz22RtT1r_CNxh16Snqq9DMsnIDb3I


----------



## Dogzilla07

Another awesome thing Arctic can do.

Btw i finished the build for my friend, these fans are incredible, Dead silent at 1050RPM for stock running, I set them to ramp up to 1550RPM at around 75-80 degrees celsius, and the sound profile is really nice, with only the air wooshing, the motors are incredible on the P12 PWMs (the non PWMs use different motors and some people said that they are more loud).

Setup is a stock R5 3600 on ASrock B450M Steel Legend with an Arctic Freezer 34 with 1 P12 PWM on, 3 P12 PWM PST as intake, and 1 as VRM Exhaust, i tilted it so that it blows sideways slightly (tilted towards the VRMs), as much as the case and the zip-ties allowed it. MSI Gaming X 1660 Ti. and Hynix C-die @ 3466Mhz CL16 1.4V manual from dram calculator. Case has just the front mesh and the plastic support frame, no additional filters.

OCCT v5.4.0.b2 15 min test with 27 degrees ambient produces:

Just the small data set no AVX cpu, 78 degrees for the CPU

Combined CPU+GPU same ambient same settings 80 degrees CPU, 66 degrees GPU.

No vrm throttling CPU all core is 3925 with only CPU, and the CPU throttles down to 3900MHz with CPU and GPU, specifically when the cpu hits 80 degrees.

Another person on a forum in my country got them as well for a water cooling setup and he found they perform at 1000RPM the same as EKWB Vardars at 1200RPM, but the P12 PWMs are way more silent.


----------



## BroadPwns

After painting proof that I managed to dismantle it.


----------



## Koniakki

Got a 5-pack off Amazon(P12 dc) a couple months ago. Haven't opened them(box) yet. Glad to read good things here so far about them. 

I do have a dozen SP120's tho tbh and a few NB-loops left for an upcoming build but kinda regretting not ordering another 5-pack or even 2 then. For €4 a pop when I ordered them, couldn't go wrong. 

They are a bit cheaper now too(irc ~€18 for 5pack P12 non-pwm).


----------



## Miiksu

Im happy with the P12 pwm. Improved my deltaT 36,9°C > 36,2°C with two fans. May not sound much but my radiators are already well saturated. Also side panel was closed. It was open when tested New cpu water blocks. I'm expecting to get 1-1,2°C improvement with four more fans. Also the fans are over two times cheaper than old Cooler Master FP120 pwm fans. Noise increased but its not that bad, when gaming you dont even notice the extra noise.


----------



## BroadPwns

0.7C difference is plain measurement error, unless it's load on a constant volume, which is straight out impossible to achieve on PC workload.


----------



## doyll

Miiksu said:


> Im happy with the P12 pwm. Improved my deltaT 36,9°C > 36,2°C with two fans. May not sound much but my radiators are already well saturated. Also side panel was closed. It was open when tested New cpu water blocks. I'm expecting to get 1-1,2°C improvement with four more fans. Also the fans are over two times cheaper than old Cooler Master FP120 pwm fans. Noise increased but its not that bad, when gaming you dont even notice the extra noise.


So 36.9c is water temp from before with case open and 36.2c with case closed and different fans? If true, your 0.6c difference means nothing because test runs are not the same with only fans changing .. or am I missing something in translation?


----------



## Miiksu

doyll said:


> So 36.9c is water temp from before with case open and 36.2c with case closed and different fans? If true, your 0.6c difference means nothing because test runs are not the same with only fans changing .. or am I missing something in translation?


Temp was 0.7°C lower with closed side panel. It was open with old fans and 0.7°C higher. But I'm on water. Temps rise maybe 2 degrees when closed case. I don't have time or energy to make proper comparison. It was also full speed comparison. 1400 vs 1800 rpm. So we talk about 2-3 difference and that is good because the noise did not increase for my hearing that much. 14 dB vs 22.5 dB. Somehow that 22.5dB does not sound too annoying. It sound quite of TY-140 on full speed but it did not sound annoying as Thermalright TY-140.


----------



## doyll

Miiksu said:


> Temp was 0.7°C lower with closed side panel. It was open with old fans and 0.7°C higher. But I'm on water. Temps rise maybe 2 degrees when closed case. I don't have time or energy to make proper comparison. It was also full speed comparison. 1400 vs 1800 rpm. So we talk about 2-3 difference and that is good because the noise did not increase for my hearing that much. 14 dB vs 22.5 dB. Somehow that 22.5dB does not sound too annoying. It sound quite of TY-140 on full speed but it did not sound annoying as Thermalright TY-140.


Interesting observations, most people find TY140/147/147A quiet and what noise they make at higher speed to be quite pleasant compared to other fans.


----------



## Miiksu

doyll said:


> Interesting observations, most people find TY140/147/147A quiet and what noise they make at higher speed to be quite pleasant compared to other fans.


Yeah. I was suprised how pleasant new Arctic fans sound. F-series was bad but they are still better than some China fans. For different than PC purposes TC fans are still good choice. Thermalright TY-fans are very good. But I don't have nor heard P14. You don't break the bank if buy one fan for testing or 10 fans  because its so cheap. I bought one and was impressed. Of course they are not the best fans out there but really good for the price. Suits for atleast for low FPI radiators. I have back ordered some 30FPI rads from the Koolance.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Miiksu said:


> Yeah. I was suprised how pleasant new Arctic fans sound. F-series was bad but they are still better than some China fans. For different than PC purposes TC fans are still good choice. Thermalright TY-fans are very good. But I don't have nor heard P14. You don't break the bank if buy one fan for testing or 10 fans  because its so cheap. I bought one and was impressed. Of course they are not the best fans out there but really good for the price. Suits for atleast for low FPI radiators. I have back ordered some 30FPI rads from the Koolance.


Actually p14 is performing good on high fpi rads too ( EK) :


----------



## BroadPwns

If you count dB/mm3/h then they're not doing good. They're doing tremendously good. But the scores look somewhat strange, in example look at Aers first two scores. Airflow goes down by 11mm3/h on 2nd test and the noise did not lower at all. Maybe Roman explained that behaviour but me deustche esta no gut so I'm keen on calling the test broken at one way.


----------



## doyll

Miiksu said:


> Yeah. I was suprised how pleasant new Arctic fans sound. F-series was bad but they are still better than some China fans. For different than PC purposes TC fans are still good choice. Thermalright TY-fans are very good. But I don't have nor heard P14. You don't break the bank if buy one fan for testing or 10 fans  because its so cheap. I bought one and was impressed. Of course they are not the best fans out there but really good for the price. Suits for atleast for low FPI radiators. I have back ordered some 30FPI rads from the Koolance.


I need to get a couple and test them myself.



BroadPwns said:


> If you count dB/mm3/h then they're not doing good. They're doing tremendously good. But the scores look somewhat strange, in example look at Aers first two scores. Airflow goes down by 11mm3/h on 2nd test and the noise did not lower at all. Maybe Roman explained that behaviour but me deustche esta no gut so I'm keen on calling the test broken at one way.


You believe company specs? You do realize the are artificual data? The pressure test is max pressure fan makes into a box over ambient and airflow is with fan mounted to panel dividing 2 chambers with both chambers at identical pressure. For fan t move air in real life the exhaust side of fan is higher pressure than intake side. Airflow is created by higher pressure air moving to lower pressure in attempt to equalize both to same pressure. That is why high pressure area in atmosphere generate winds moving away from them. Our fans work on same principle.  I would love to see test in text format so we could translate it to our own languages.


----------



## StAndrew

The P12's and P14's are great fans but the material is cheap. I had one P12 arrive with a spider crack in one of the blades. 

Even worse, the Bionix 14 material is squishy; its not a rigid fan. While it has a much better fell than the P fans, its very rubbery. When tightening down the screws, if you're not careful, the shape can distort and cause the fan to click. Another Bionix 14 clicked at full speed as the fan blades would expand as the RPM's reached a certain speed and there wasn't enough tolerance.

That said, I called Arctic and they replaced all my fans with no questions and I didn't have to return the defective fans.


----------



## BroadPwns

doyll said:


> I need to get a couple and test them myself.
> 
> 
> You believe company specs? You do realize the are artificual data? The pressure test is max pressure fan makes into a box over ambient and airflow is with fan mounted to panel dividing 2 chambers with both chambers at identical pressure. For fan t move air in real life the exhaust side of fan is higher pressure than intake side. Airflow is created by higher pressure air moving to lower pressure in attempt to equalize both to same pressure. That is why high pressure area in atmosphere generate winds moving away from them. Our fans work on same principle.  I would love to see test in text format so we could translate it to our own languages.



The hell you're talking about? I'm referring directly to der8auers recent test that got linked here.


----------



## doyll

BroadPwns said:


> The hell you're talking about? I'm referring directly to der8auers recent test that got linked here.


Indeed, a talking head spouting German (I think).  I hate talking heads and prefer to read reviews not watch and listen to them. Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but I can skim/read and ingest written data much faster than it takes to watch an entire video .. not even taking into accout comparing different charts and graphs on different pages instead of having to try finding them in video.


----------



## ShogoXT

I put in the replacement fan. They never asked for the old one back. I approve of good warranty support, it's why I was Logitech loyal for years (probably changing soon).


----------



## gupsterg

Recently my opinion on the P12 has changed.

Originally I had the 3x Arctic Cooling P12 PWM on 360mm slim rad open air rig, I liked them on this setup, but not when I moved to a closed case setup.

When I moved them to a closed case rig and they could hit ~1400rpm range for a while, they had a very odd noise emanating from them. Once I reverted the rig back to Arctic Cooling F12 PWM all was fine again.

I then retested P12 vs F12 on that rig. This time I wanted to see if say the motherboard/RAM, etc temps improved from perhaps the marketed aspect of higher static pressure element of P12. The rig was a closed case, with front rad having 3x120mm fans on outer face to push air into case and a top rad with 3x120mm on inner side to push air out of case. I saw no large difference in temps with 1hr run of Realbench stress mode, it was pretty much a degree or so. Realbench was used as both the CPU/GPU were loaded and both cooled by loop.

I believe the F12 are also decent static pressure and perhaps maybe better than P12. This roundup here, the second chart is ordering fans by CFM through a 30 FPI rad, the Noctua NF-P12 @~1500 rpm = 40CFM, the Arctic Cooling F12 @~1300rpm = 41CFM, the Noctua NF-P12 is rated as SP 2.6, the P12 is rated SP2.2.

I used the P12 from about mid 2018 on open rig til now and have used the F12 from about end of 2017 til now. I believe in which ever case setup I can use the F12, but not P12.


----------



## poah

found the F12s to be better at 550rpm or below but the P12 a lot quieter. above 550 or so RPM the P12s were better. Tested on several different rads. 

you should have both fans set to inlet on a closed case.


----------



## ShogoXT

They tend to be pretty quiet up to 800rpm so don't really need to keep them below 600. If they have a weird noise, maybe they are defective. 

Arctic gave me another easily and I was fixed.


----------



## ajx

Hey, i need your advice, i need 1x120 mm and 2x140 mm on this case



1x120mm for the rear as exhaust

2x140 mm in front as intake

I m thinking about Arctic series, P12/P14, its rated as static pressure

Which one to pick?

I think for intake front case fans, P14 PWM CO ST should be fine
But for the exhaust rear? Still picking P12 over F12?

What about Arctic case fans against Pure/Shadow/Silent Wings even though Be Quiet has much higher cost (especially on Silent versions)

Thanks


----------



## doyll

Arctic fans are cheap not just is price but also quality. That said, many peeps are willing to trade quality and better sound to have fans for 1/3-1/2 the price of good quality fans. Assuming case is Jonsbo C5 and has vents for PSU & 1x 120mm intake, I would use 2x 140mm front intakes and probably 1x bottom intake with all openings in fan mounting panels not covered by fans and PSU blocked so the air they are pushing into case cannot leak back in front of fans. I would remove all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU and thus give better front to back airflow and lower both CPU and GPU temps. I know, PCIe slot covers are vented, but they still block more than half of area they have when removed. You don't need any exhaust fans, just good pressure rated intakes. Think of case airflow being like cooler airflow with only intakes as fan on front of cooler and intake/exhaust as push/pull fans .. both cool the same at same noise level becuase more fans make more noise. Only time cooling is better is fans at same speed and even then it's only 2-3c. Only time it really makes a difference is when fan are running full speed, and with good case airflow our fans rarely if ever full speed. I would use taller feet or open center caster base to increase bottom space so there is more area for bottom fans to draw air in. Caster base design below:
http://phanteks.com/forum/showthread.php?510-Tips-amp-Guides
You might find below link to basic guide to airflow and how to optimize case airflow helpful. Only takes a coulple minutes to read:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319249-post5.html





? Front : 2*120mm or 2*140mm(Optional) ；Back: 1*120mm (Optional)； Bottom:1*120mm (Optional)


----------



## BroadPwns

Please tell in which way are they cheap in quality. Precisely, not in general.


----------



## Blameless

I've been using a half dozen P14's for a bout a year now. I'm rather impressed with them price/performance/quality balance seems exceptional. None of mine have any perceptible bearing noise at any speed beyond about a foot and the overall tonality of the sound they produce is good. They also pull more air through most of the filters I've used them with than almost anything else at equivalent noise levels.

Plenty of 120mm fans I'd rather have than the P12's, if money was no object, but there are very few 140mm fans better than the P14s in upper-mid rpm ranges. My NF-A14s are slightly better up to it's 1500rpm maximum, but the P14 scales higher and isn't that much louder at equivalent air flow.


----------



## doyll

BroadPwns said:


> Please tell in which way are they cheap in quality. Precisely, not in general.


 What Blameless said. 

They are both cheap in price and in quality, but they are a decent fan with very good performance to value ratio. For example they are not and good as NH-A12x25 costing £26.99-29.99, Silent Wings 3 costing £18.99-20.99, etc. costing 4x as much. I don't think they are as good as PH-F140MP / PH-F120MP normally costing about 3x as much, but right now here I can get PH-F140MP 2-pack for £16.26 (£8.26 @) & PH-F120MP 2-pack for £14.99 (£7.49 @) .. compared to Arctic P12 for £5.99 and P14 for £5.95-9.95 so I go with Phanteks fans because they are better with similar prices.


----------



## BroadPwns

Once again you did not answer the question, how are they cheap in quality? They're rigid and could easily sell at 2x their price and they definitely do not look and perform equivalently to their price. I've seen a bazilion other fans that cost at least twice as much and were both awful in performance and not even close to their rigidness, including the top notch trash which is Corsair AF/SP fans.


----------



## ciarlatano

ajx said:


> I m thinking about Arctic series, P12/P14, its rated as static pressure


The last I checked, all fans have static pressure. It would be impossibly to move air without it....


----------



## doyll

BroadPwns said:


> Once again you did not answer the question, how are they cheap in quality? They're rigid and could easily sell at 2x their price and they definitely do not look and perform equivalently to their price. I've seen a bazilion other fans that cost at least twice as much and were both awful in performance and not even close to their rigidness, including the top notch trash which is Corsair AF/SP fans.


 Once again you somehow avoid seeing the obvious, instead choosing to be rude.


For others reading, fan quality can be seen and felt in how well they are formed and how they feel, how they look, don't sound as refined. 

Also many P series buyers have received defective fans, fans damaged in shipping, fans making noises they shouldn't, etc. 

What they "could sell for" has much more do to with marketing hype than actual quality of construction or performance. 

Please define want "ridgidness" in fans means and how it makes them better. 

And I've seen several that cost about the same but are better .. Phanteks PH-F140MP and PH-F120MP 2-packs are very good examples of better fans at similar prices. Go back 3-4 years and we were buying Thermalright TY-140 and TY-143 fans for a fiver .. and they are much better than Arctic P series. 

We can agree Corsair AF / SP are garbage .. but Corsair lives on marketing hype, not quality products.


----------



## poah

BroadPwns said:


> Once again you did not answer the question, how are they cheap in quality? They're rigid and could easily sell at 2x their price and they definitely do not look and perform equivalently to their price. I've seen a bazilion other fans that cost at least twice as much and were both awful in performance and not even close to their rigidness, including the top notch trash which is Corsair AF/SP fans.



I don't think he even has any to look at. mine have worked flawlessly. The P14s are better than the cryorig QF140mm and the Phanteks PH-F140MP.


----------



## ajx

I didnt find any good alternatives for similar price, those phanteck case fans are not worthy on amazon.de for example, cost like 32 eur lol
Maybe should i look into Be Quiet case fans even though its much more pricey?
P


----------



## deepor

@doyll:

Can you try to condense what you want to say about quality of these Arctic fans here into something short? I don't understand what you want to say because your last post got pretty long and you are not clear about what's general to fans and what's concrete about these particular fans here.

I'm guessing you want to say something like this here:

"When I held the P14 PWM in my hands, I got the impression that it is less quality than TY-146, SW3, NF-A14. I don't know how to describe this in words. It just felt like less quality."

Is my guess correct? Or do you want to say something else about these fans here?


----------



## BroadPwns

poah said:


> I don't think he even has any to look at. mine have worked flawlessly. The P14s are better than the cryorig QF140mm and the Phanteks PH-F140MP.



I've got 2 P12 atm, 2 P14 and 2 P12 PWM that came with Liquid Freezer II, 3 more P12, 1 P12 PWM, 2 P14 and a broken P12 (I've tried to dismantle it, failed miserably) in my toolbox. Tested each one of them and all of them perform the same. I'm not saying they're flawless and getting one damaged is impossible, because that is impossible to deliver, one of P12 PWM from LF II came with a severed cable -> motor connection on one line. It works perfectly fine if I am to mess with it a bit.


The chassis is really solid and stiff, blade design is very good, which is proven by multiple tests already, bearing works wonderfully. To me, they make an appearance of a 20+ USD fan, that's why I'm curious what does he mean by cheap quality.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> I don't think he even has any to look at. mine have worked flawlessly. The P14s are better than the cryorig QF140mm and the Phanteks PH-F140MP.


 I have looked at / handled a few of them, but haven't done any testing. 

QF140 are known for having a rather raspy sound and not being very good. I changed them to TY-140 and then to TY-147 on my Cryorig coolers.
You are one of a very few who complain about PH-F140MP, but I as you lumped them in with QF140 it's seems you don't know a lot about which are good and which are not. 



deepor said:


> @*doyll* :
> 
> Can you try to condense what you want to say about quality of these Arctic fans here into something short? I don't understand what you want to say because your last post got pretty long and you are not clear about what's general to fans and what's concrete about these particular fans here.
> 
> I'm guessing you want to say something like this here:
> 
> "When I held the P14 PWM in my hands, I got the impression that it is less quality than TY-146, SW3, NF-A14. I don't know how to describe this in words. It just felt like less quality."
> 
> Is my guess correct? Or do you want to say something else about these fans here?


You more in your reply than was in what you want reworded. I've never heard of TY-146, did you mean TY-147 or something else? Most who have used both don't think NF-A14 series are quite as good as Thermalright TY series 140mm fans. 



BroadPwns said:


> I've got 2 P12 atm, 2 P14 and 2 P12 PWM that came with Liquid Freezer II, 3 more P12, 1 P12 PWM, 2 P14 and a broken P12 (I've tried to dismantle it, failed miserably) in my toolbox. Tested each one of them and all of them perform the same. I'm not saying they're flawless and getting one damaged is impossible, because that is impossible to deliver, one of P12 PWM from LF II came with a severed cable -> motor connection on one line. It works perfectly fine if I am to mess with it a bit.
> 
> The chassis is really solid and stiff, blade design is very good, which is proven by multiple tests already, bearing works wonderfully. To me, they make an appearance of a 20+ USD fan, that's why I'm curious what does he mean by cheap quality.


Evidently either the ones I handled were different contruction (which I doubt) or having handled, used and/or tested upwards of 100 different fans over the years I'm noticing (maybe subconsciously) things other users are not. They definitely didn't appear anywhere near as well buit as $20+ fans I've used. Not even as good as Thermalright's old TY-140, 141, 143 fans from years back. 

I'm not saying Arctic P series and even Arctic A series are bad fans. I've uses A series when they were cheap and nothing else at reasonable price was available. All I'm saying is in my opinion they are not as good and will likely not last as well as some of the higher priced fans .. like PH-F140MP, TY-147A SQ, NF-A14. NF-A12x15, etc. But for buyers on limited budgets with limited availability of better fans they do the job and are low priced.


----------



## BroadPwns

doyll said:


> Evidently either the ones I handled were different contruction (which I doubt) or having handled, used and/or tested upwards of 100 different fans over the years I'm noticing (maybe subconsciously) things other users are not. They definitely didn't appear anywhere near as well buit as $20+ fans I've used. Not even as good as Thermalright's old TY-140, 141, 143 fans from years back.
> 
> I'm not saying Arctic P series and even Arctic A series are bad fans. I've uses A series when they were cheap and nothing else at reasonable price was available. All I'm saying is in my opinion they are not as good and will likely not last as well as some of the higher priced fans .. like PH-F140MP, TY-147A SQ, NF-A14. NF-A12x15, etc. But for buyers on limited budgets with limited availability of better fans they do the job and are low priced.



I understand you, but I still crave for a statement - why exactly, what makes them visibly inferior in contrast to other fans? I don't question the superiority of regular A12s because it has been proven and Noctua stands on top of build quality.


----------



## ajx

My question wasn't about cheap quality from Arctic fans lol
My question is: my Jonsbo hasn't good airflow, at least, its designed for aesthetic, rather than cooling efficiency
I am asking if higher and more premium fans would do a better job in such case?
I have three or four options:

- Arctic P Series

- Be Quiet, cheaper ones (Pure or Shadow)

- Be Quiet, Silent Wings 3

- Noctua, NF-S12A + NF-A14 PWM Chromax (because i dont like Noctua brown color lol)


----------



## gupsterg

ajx said:


> My question wasn't about cheap quality from Arctic fans lol
> My question is: my Jonsbo hasn't good airflow, at least, its designed for aesthetic, rather than cooling efficiency
> I am asking if higher and more premium fans would do a better job in such case?
> I have three or four options:
> 
> - Arctic P Series
> 
> - Be Quiet, cheaper ones (Pure or Shadow)
> 
> - Be Quiet, Silent Wings 3
> 
> - Noctua, NF-S12A + NF-A14 PWM Chromax (because i dont like Noctua brown color lol)


IMO regardless of which fans you go, the front intake is too restrictive to make any seem better than another.



Spoiler














IMO fan on the base would have it's airflow impeded by PSU cover.



Spoiler














I'd probably pick another case.


----------



## Speedster159

I have these fans, but I'm still not sure if they are better performance and quieter than the ML120's that come with my H100i.

Opinions?


----------



## BroadPwns

If you already have them, then test them. I've never seen a comparision between P12 and ML120 tbh. P14 is a bit stronger than ML140, according to hardwareluxx.


----------



## Blameless

Biggest problem I've had with the P14s is that they aren't 25mm thick...they are 27mm+. This has caused issues with a few of my cases, notably my Fractal R5, when using them as front intakes.



doyll said:


> Also many P series buyers have received defective fans, fans damaged in shipping, fans making noises they shouldn't, etc.


That said, I think I was lucky with the box of P14's I bought, they all work and are all fairly consistent. I usually buy more fans than I need because I expect a fair portion of most fans to arrive defective or damaged.

I strongly suspect buying the P14s in the 'value packs' minimizes the likelihood they'll be damaged in handling or transit.



doyll said:


> And I've seen several that cost about the same but are better .. Phanteks PH-F140MP and PH-F120MP 2-packs are very good examples of better fans at similar prices. Go back 3-4 years and we were buying Thermalright TY-140 and TY-143 fans for a fiver .. and they are much better than Arctic P series.


I haven't tried the Phanteks, but I have several TY-14x fans and I wouldn't call them universally better than the Arctic P Series. In particular, at that 1500-1800 rpm range, the P14s move more air, with less noise, when dealing with any significant source of restriction. In open air, the TY-140 is better (in noise/performance) right up to it's maximum rpm and the TY-143 can obviously scale way further than the P14, but there is a solid niche for those P14s were very few fans out do them (at least a non-damaged/defective sample), especially if price is any factor at all.

Also, I've never been able to get the Thermalrights anywhere near as inexpensively as the Arctics. Buying them five at a time, the P14s are about seven dollars each...that's half of what I've ever seen a TY-140 for, and well under half what my TY-143s cost.


----------



## ciarlatano

Speedster159 said:


> I have these fans, but I'm still not sure if they are better performance and quieter than the ML120's that come with my H100i.
> 
> Opinions?


My opinion is that in your rig, the only opinion that matters is yours. And you have both fans, so you can certainly form an accurate one rather than being guided by the opinions of people who aren't using your rig.


----------



## doyll

BroadPwns said:


> If you already have them, then test them. I've never seen a comparision between P12 and ML120 tbh. P14 is a bit stronger than ML140, according to hardwareluxx.


Can you show tell us what your test procedure is and show us test results?




Blameless said:


> Biggest problem I've had with the P14s is that they aren't 25mm thick...they are 27mm+. This has caused issues with a few of my cases, notably my Fractal R5, when using them as front intakes.
> 
> That said, I think I was lucky with the box of P14's I bought, they all work and are all fairly consistent. I usually buy more fans than I need because I expect a fair portion of most fans to arrive defective or damaged.
> 
> I strongly suspect buying the P14s in the 'value packs' minimizes the likelihood they'll be damaged in handling or transit.
> 
> I haven't tried the Phanteks, but I have several TY-14x fans and I wouldn't call them universally better than the Arctic P Series. In particular, at that 1500-1800 rpm range, the P14s move more air, with less noise, when dealing with any significant source of restriction. In open air, the TY-140 is better (in noise/performance) right up to it's maximum rpm and the TY-143 can obviously scale way further than the P14, but there is a solid niche for those P14s were very few fans out do them (at least a non-damaged/defective sample), especially if price is any factor at all.
> 
> Also, I've never been able to get the Thermalrights anywhere near as inexpensively as the Arctics. Buying them five at a time, the P14s are about seven dollars each...that's half of what I've ever seen a TY-140 for, and well under half what my TY-143s cost.


I'm guessing you haven't used a large variety of fans, because lots of fans are 26-27mm thick. 

Needing to buy bulk packs of fans to be sure you get enough good ones to do the job is a sure sign of fans' quality not being very good. 
Most TY- series fans can't go 1500-1800rpm .. like TY-140, TY-147, TY-141, TY-147A, TY-149, etc. Please tell us your test procedure and show us the data from your testing of P14s vs TY-14x fans. 









gupsterg said:


> IMO regardless of which fans you go, the front intake is too restrictive to make any seem better than another.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 323620
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO fan on the base would have it's airflow impeded by PSU cover.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 323622
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd probably pick another case.


 Too bad your opinion is not based on facts and how things really work.
Higher pressure rated fans flow much more air through restictive case venting (like this case) than low pressure rated fans. 

This case has a big vent in top of PSU cover as shown in lower left of image in post #355 this thread. 

Included below image showing vent in PSU shroud just in case you can't find post #355:


----------



## BroadPwns

doyll said:


> Can you show tell us what your test procedure is and show us test results?



According to is a keyword. https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...erspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html?start=4


----------



## gupsterg

doyll said:


> Too bad your opinion is not based on facts and how things really work.
> Higher pressure rated fans flow much more air through restictive case venting (like this case) than low pressure rated fans.
> 
> This case has a big vent in top of PSU cover as shown in lower left of image in post #355 this thread.
> 
> Included below image showing vent in PSU shroud just in case you can't find post #355:
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Thank you for the enlightenment, I'll await the user's happy experience share  .


----------



## doyll

BroadPwns said:


> According to is a keyword. https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...erspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html?start=4


Link is to chart of fans at full speed, and obviously higher speed fans give higher results. Look on next page to see them compared at same 1000rpm speed .. or compare them at same noise level.


----------



## ajx

@doyll
Thanks for the input, my case isnt tempered glass side, its both vented side panels which improve sightly airflow 
Which alternatives to Arctic P Series?
I am little worried about Arctic P Series lifespan


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> @doyll
> Thanks for the input, my case isnt tempered glass side, its both vented side panels which improve sightly airflow
> Which alternatives to Arctic P Series?
> I am little worried about Arctic P Series lifespan


Alternatives depend on what is available to you. Can you give us a couple links to websites you can buy from and what size fans you need?


----------



## ajx

Mostly on Amazon (.de, .es, .fr, .it) because of customer service and its often cheaper 
1x 120 mm as exhaust rear
2x 140 mm as intake front


----------



## Blameless

doyll said:


> I'm guessing you haven't used a large variety of fans, because lots of fans are 26-27mm thick.


Maybe a few hundred different models over the last 25 years.

Not sure where I implied surprise at them being 27mm thick, just that it was a problem on cases expecting 25mm thick fans.



doyll said:


> Needing to buy bulk packs of fans to be sure you get enough good ones to do the job is a sure sign of fans' quality not being very good.


So far, I have proportionally far more defective Noctua and Thermalright fans than I do Arctics.

I always buy more fans than I think I'll need, because irrespective of brand, I expect a fair number to get to me broken...either from being defective, or trashed in shipping.



doyll said:


> Most TY- series fans can't go 1500-1800rpm


Which is one of the main reasons the P14s have the performance niche they do, that's what a niche is. That said even my TY-143s don't move as much air through a radiator or dense filter at this rpm range as a P14 will and the P14s are less audible.



doyll said:


> Please tell us your test procedure and show us the data from your testing of P14s vs TY-14x fans.


I install the fans on the object to be cooled, tune them to the highest speed I find the noise level to remain acceptable, then compare temperatures of those components at a fixed thermal load. Ambient noise and temperature are kept as close as possible, of course.

The only data I have, and the only data I need, are component temperatures at a given loudness...because this is what matters, in practice.

Of course I look at reviews before purchase, when possible, and compare my results after purchase to make sure there are no glaring anomalies.



doyll said:


> Link is to chart of fans at full speed, and obviously higher speed fans give higher results. Look on next page to see them compared at same 1000rpm speed .. or compare them at same noise level.


That hardwareluxx review shows the P14 in a very positive light.

Look at the fan performance vs. noise level in the higher rpm tests where there is significant restriction present. They get quieter faster, but loose air flow less readily, with increasing resistance than most other fans tested. On a radiator they are quieter, while moving more air, than nearly all the Noctua fans. Only the NF-A12x25 is producing (0.8) lower dBA, but it's also moving ~10% less air.

This closely matches my personal experience with the fans and why I argue that, even if you totally ignore price, they are hard to beat in the 1500rpm range in situations where significant resistance must be overcome.

If anything I'm surprised at how well they were doing. According to those tests the P14 is an amazing fan.


----------



## Speedster159

BroadPwns said:


> If you already have them, then test them. I've never seen a comparision between P12 and ML120 tbh. P14 is a bit stronger than ML140, according to hardwareluxx.





ciarlatano said:


> My opinion is that in your rig, the only opinion that matters is yours. And you have both fans, so you can certainly form an accurate one rather than being guided by the opinions of people who aren't using your rig.


Problems is I don't have time to test... so yeah.


----------



## doyll

Blameless said:


> Maybe a few hundred different models over the last 25 years.


That's a decent amount of fans. I'm surprised you how poorly most review testing is and how skewed most review testing results are.



Blameless said:


> Not sure where I implied surprise at them being 27mm thick, just that it was a problem on cases expecting 25mm thick fans.


Sorry, the way you complained about 27mm thickness led me to believe you thought they were thicker than the norm, and 26-27mm is the norm, not the exception.



Blameless said:


> So far, I have proportionally far more defective Noctua and Thermalright fans than I do Arctics.


Either your defective fan rate is extremely off the norm or you are not accurately stating it .. as in how many hours has each fan ran before showing any problems, how many of each fan are you basing your claim on, etc.


Blameless said:


> I always buy more fans than I think I'll need, because irrespective of brand, I expect a fair number to get to me broken...either from being defective, or trashed in shipping.


Interesting. I rarely receive a defective fan .. maybe 1 fan out of 100+ fans. Agian it seems your are the exception to the norm. 



Blameless said:


> Which is one of the main reasons the P14s have the performance niche they do, that's what a niche is. That said even my TY-143s don't move as much air through a radiator or dense filter at this rpm range as a P14 will and the P14s are less audible.


Your claims are not supported by data from accurate testing.



Blameless said:


> I install the fans on the object to be cooled, tune them to the highest speed I find the noise level to remain acceptable, then compare temperatures of those components at a fixed thermal load. Ambient noise and temperature are kept as close as possible, of course.
> 
> The only data I have, and the only data I need, are component temperatures at a given loudness...because this is what matters, in practice.
> 
> Of course I look at reviews before purchase, when possible, and compare my results after purchase to make sure there are no glaring anomalies.


So you depend on your ears to determine noise level, not a meter? 

Are you comparing temps based on actual air temp or assuming air temp is the same? 

Without a definition of "as close as possible" we really have no determining criteria. Same problem as with most review testing. 



Blameless said:


> That hardwareluxx review shows the P14 in a very positive light.
> 
> Look at the fan performance vs. noise level in the higher rpm tests where there is significant restriction present. They get quieter faster, but loose air flow less readily, with increasing resistance than most other fans tested. On a radiator they are quieter, while moving more air, than nearly all the Noctua fans. Only the NF-A12x25 is producing (0.8) lower dBA, but it's also moving ~10% less air.
> 
> This closely matches my personal experience with the fans and why I argue that, even if you totally ignore price, they are hard to beat in the 1500rpm range in situations where significant resistance must be overcome.
> 
> If anything I'm surprised at how well they were doing. According to those tests the P14 is an amazing fan.


 Anyone just looking at hardwareluxx charts is seeing an extremely misleading representation. They lump both 120mm and 140mm fans with speeds ranging from 1200rpm to 1950rpm all in one chart.

The higher static rating a fan has, the better then will be able to overcome resistance and maintain a good flow of air. But looking a hardwareluxx data, it looks like the most restrictive thing used in their testing appears to be H5, I assume Cryorig H5 cooler (I didn't see anything more specifif than "H5"), and H5 cooler isn't what I consider very restrictive. 

They may be better than I think. We are only just ovetr a year into their existance, so still have not real idea how long they will last. That said, (and as I've said before) for many buyers they are a good value fan.


Have you seen the Corsair airflow test unit they supply to reviewers? It is a piece of " clear plastic tubing with fan mount on one end and 2 woven wire mesh screens fitted inside to function as an airflow straightener .. not sure how well tht works. While I can kinda see how a 154mm ID tube might be okay for 120mm and smaller fan testing, but seems a tube 154mm ID with straightenerd in it would be restrictive for 140mm fans. Schedule 40 pipr specs are 168.3mm OD / 154.07mm ID.


----------



## Fish#6

I have five of the P14 PWM fans. Three are used as case fans (inlet) and 2 are strapped to a Prolimatech MK-26 GPU heatsink. Two of the fans have been in use for 12 months and the other three for 9 months. They get approximately 6 hours use every day, but typically only need to run at 350 rpm with this stretching up to 700 - 750 rpm for an average of an hour of gaming each day. These are still fairly early days, but as yet I've experienced no noticeable issues running them. At this 350 rpm speed I'm unable to hear or measure any noise from them beyond the ambient room noise level. 

I've had three minor challenges with them:


The 27mm width made them very difficult to fit to the MK-26 whose fan clips don't quite stretch far enough.
The wires are a bit weedy and quite easy to accidentally damage against the fan frame during fitting. Just need some care.
The surface layer of the frame material around the fitting holes tears fairly easily. I've re-fitted the fans in different configurations 3 or 4 times and this has not yet caused a problem.
Overall I'm very happy with them.


----------



## Blameless

doyll said:


> Sorry, the way you complained about 27mm thickness led me to believe you thought they were thicker than the norm, and 26-27mm is the norm, not the exception.


15, 25, and 38mm thicknesses are what I'd consider the norm for 80-140mm wide fans. Anything that intentionally falls outside those ranges is uncommon for a PC fan. 27mm, while far from unheard of, is a bit of an oddball thickness. Essentially all of my Noctua, Thermalright, Scythe, San Ace, Nidec, Corsair, Y.S. Tech, Panasonic, Delta, Sunon, Fractal Design, etc and so forth fans, that aren't advertised as being thinner (15m) than normal or 38mm thick fans are nearly all 25mm thick, give or take half a mm. Of all the 120 or 140mm fans in my possession that aren't 15 or 38mm thick fans I think only my TY-14xes and these P14s are over 25.4mm.

I didn't realize it would be an issue with these P14s until after I tried to mount them to a Define R5, it was enough of a difference to bow out the front filter than comes with the case to the point it doesn't make a very good filter...actually had to swap them out for a pair of worse performing Bgears fans until I was able to replace the filter.



doyll said:


> Either your defective fan rate is extremely off the norm or you are not accurately stating it .. as in how many hours has each fan ran before showing any problems, how many of each fan are you basing your claim on, etc.
> 
> Interesting. I rarely receive a defective fan .. maybe 1 fan out of 100+ fans. Agian it seems your are the exception to the norm.


I'm sure it's extremely off the norm. Many mainstream etailers do not pack them well and shipping is pretty harsh on stuff in my area.

I have exactly the same problems with almost any fragile mechanical products...like HDDs. Statistically a drive model might have a 2% annual failure rate, but if I order twenty of them from Newegg, I can expect four or five to get to me broken (either DOA or dying during initial testing).



doyll said:


> Your claims are not supported by data from accurate testing.


My claim is that from ~1500rpm to the peak RPM the 140mm Arctic P14/140 series fans are specified to reach, they will have very competitive flow vs. noise characteristics when faced with restrictive filters and/or radiators.

This is what my own testing shows and I have not seen a single test, from _anywhere_ else, that claims otherwise.



doyll said:


> So you depend on your ears to determine noise level, not a meter?


Yes. Raw dBA levels (especially those below the threshold which can be easily distinguished by ear) can be highly misleading and even sone figures are over generalizations that do not reveal any details about the tonality of a noise.

Since I'm only reviewing fans I personally intend to use and am not publishing my results for general consumption, my ears are the ultimate arbiter of what noise levels are acceptable.

In the case of the Arctic P fans, most of the noise is from the blades, in particular the tips, and it's readily muffled as restriction/pressure increases. There is minimal bearing or motor noise and the overall tone is low and smooth...at least for the 3-pin versions. I don't have any of their PWM fans so can't say if there is any PWM noise on those.



doyll said:


> Are you comparing temps based on actual air temp or assuming air temp is the same?


Actual intake temperatures.

Temperature is something where objectivity is both far more important and far easier to define than noise.



doyll said:


> Without a definition of "as close as possible" we really have no determining criteria. Same problem as with most review testing.


More objective noise measurements might satisfy your need for objectivity, but unless you are doing a full profile of the noise emitted and can agree on how to weigh various frequencies and harmonics, it will be just as arbitrary.

Just calibrating fans to the same dBA says very little about how acceptable the noise is. For example, my TY-143s are objectively quiet at low RPM (I do have an SPL meter, I just don't use it often, because it doesn't tell me much of anything useful), but I find the noise from the ball bearings a bit too obvious for me to want to use or recommend them below about 900rpm...after that the air flow itself drowns out the bearing and it doesn't matter, but they are far from my first choice for silent applications,



doyll said:


> Anyone just looking at hardwareluxx charts is seeing an extremely misleading representation. They lump both 120mm and 140mm fans with speeds ranging from 1200rpm to 1950rpm all in one chart.


The charts depicts what they say they depict and I don't see anything misleading about it.

It's not a 'fair' test as most people who could use a 140mm fan for a given application aren't going to be looking at many 120mm fans, but the objective results of the test are what they are, and it should be clear the Arctic P series has a real niche.



doyll said:


> The higher static rating a fan has, the better then will be able to overcome resistance and maintain a good flow of air. But looking a hardwareluxx data, it looks like the most restrictive thing used in their testing appears to be H5, I assume Cryorig H5 cooler (I didn't see anything more specifif than "H5"), and H5 cooler isn't what I consider very restrictive.


The test methodology page shows a Thermalright Macho, so I'm not sure if those charts are just a mislabled "HS" or if they substituted a Cryorig H5.

Regardless, even though neither of those air coolers are particularly restrictive for heatsinks, they are far more restrictive than an open hole, most fan grills, most filters, and even many radiators.



doyll said:


> They may be better than I think. We are only just ovetr a year into their existance, so still have not real idea how long they will last. That said, (and as I've said before) for many buyers they are a good value fan.


I bought my first box of them not long after they were released and all of those fans are still working fine, including two of which have been in near constant use.

This neither a large sample size nor enough time to really get a feel for broader reliability, but I haven't been disappointed, yet. A lot of my ostensibly higher quality fans, even after culling those that were damaged in shipping, haven't lasted a year.



doyll said:


> Have you seen the Corsair airflow test unit they supply to reviewers? It is a piece of " clear plastic tubing with fan mount on one end and 2 woven wire mesh screens fitted inside to function as an airflow straightener .. not sure how well tht works. While I can kinda see how a 154mm ID tube might be okay for 120mm and smaller fan testing, but seems a tube 154mm ID with straightenerd in it would be restrictive for 140mm fans. Schedule 40 pipr specs are 168.3mm OD / 154.07mm ID.


It's probably at least mildly restrictive for most fans that don't have stators or other flow focusing mechanisms, so might not be the best way to test pure flow oriented fans. Regardless, the restriction of that tube should be irrelevant for the more pressure focused tests.


----------



## BroadPwns

Blameless said:


> In the case of the Arctic P fans, most of the noise is from the blades, in particular the tips, and it's readily muffled as restriction/pressure increases. There is minimal bearing or motor noise and the overall tone is low and smooth...at least for the 3-pin versions. I don't have any of their PWM fans so can't say if there is any PWM noise on those.



P12 PWM and P14 PWM does not have any extra noise compared to non-PWM versions, which I also use.


----------



## Blameless

BroadPwns said:


> P12 PWM and P14 PWM does not have any extra noise compared to non-PWM versions, which I also use.


Good to know.


----------



## doyll

Blameless said:


> 15, 25, and 38mm thicknesses are what I'd consider the norm for 80-140mm wide fans. Anything that intentionally falls outside those ranges is uncommon for a PC fan. 27mm, while far from unheard of, is a bit of an oddball thickness. Essentially all of my Noctua, Thermalright, Scythe, San Ace, Nidec, Corsair, Y.S. Tech, Panasonic, Delta, Sunon, Fractal Design, etc and so forth fans, that aren't advertised as being thinner (15m) than normal or 38mm thick fans are nearly all 25mm thick, give or take half a mm. Of all the 120 or 140mm fans in my possession that aren't 15 or 38mm thick fans I think only my TY-14xes and these P14s are over 25.4mm.
> 
> I didn't realize it would be an issue with these P14s until after I tried to mount them to a Define R5, it was enough of a difference to bow out the front filter than comes with the case to the point it doesn't make a very good filter...actually had to swap them out for a pair of worse performing Bgears fans until I was able to replace the filter.
> 
> I'm sure it's extremely off the norm. Many mainstream etailers do not pack them well and shipping is pretty harsh on stuff in my area.
> 
> I have exactly the same problems with almost any fragile mechanical products...like HDDs. Statistically a drive model might have a 2% annual failure rate, but if I order twenty of them from Newegg, I can expect four or five to get to me broken (either DOA or dying during initial testing).
> 
> 
> 
> My claim is that from ~1500rpm to the peak RPM the 140mm Arctic P14/140 series fans are specified to reach, they will have very competitive flow vs. noise characteristics when faced with restrictive filters and/or radiators.
> 
> This is what my own testing shows and I have not seen a single test, from _anywhere_ else, that claims otherwise.
> 
> Yes. Raw dBA levels (especially those below the threshold which can be easily distinguished by ear) can be highly misleading and even sone figures are over generalizations that do not reveal any details about the tonality of a noise.
> 
> Since I'm only reviewing fans I personally intend to use and am not publishing my results for general consumption, my ears are the ultimate arbiter of what noise levels are acceptable.
> 
> In the case of the Arctic P fans, most of the noise is from the blades, in particular the tips, and it's readily muffled as restriction/pressure increases. There is minimal bearing or motor noise and the overall tone is low and smooth...at least for the 3-pin versions. I don't have any of their PWM fans so can't say if there is any PWM noise on those.
> 
> Actual intake temperatures.
> 
> Temperature is something where objectivity is both far more important and far easier to define than noise.
> 
> More objective noise measurements might satisfy your need for objectivity, but unless you are doing a full profile of the noise emitted and can agree on how to weigh various frequencies and harmonics, it will be just as arbitrary.
> 
> Just calibrating fans to the same dBA says very little about how acceptable the noise is. For example, my TY-143s are objectively quiet at low RPM (I do have an SPL meter, I just don't use it often, because it doesn't tell me much of anything useful), but I find the noise from the ball bearings a bit too obvious for me to want to use or recommend them below about 900rpm...after that the air flow itself drowns out the bearing and it doesn't matter, but they are far from my first choice for silent applications,
> 
> The charts depicts what they say they depict and I don't see anything misleading about it.
> 
> It's not a 'fair' test as most people who could use a 140mm fan for a given application aren't going to be looking at many 120mm fans, but the objective results of the test are what they are, and it should be clear the Arctic P series has a real niche.
> 
> The test methodology page shows a Thermalright Macho, so I'm not sure if those charts are just a mislabled "HS" or if they substituted a Cryorig H5.
> 
> Regardless, even though neither of those air coolers are particularly restrictive for heatsinks, they are far more restrictive than an open hole, most fan grills, most filters, and even many radiators.
> 
> I bought my first box of them not long after they were released and all of those fans are still working fine, including two of which have been in near constant use.
> 
> This neither a large sample size nor enough time to really get a feel for broader reliability, but I haven't been disappointed, yet. A lot of my ostensibly higher quality fans, even after culling those that were damaged in shipping, haven't lasted a year.
> 
> It's probably at least mildly restrictive for most fans that don't have stators or other flow focusing mechanisms, so might not be the best way to test pure flow oriented fans. Regardless, the restriction of that tube should be irrelevant for the more pressure focused tests.


We all know most fan publish specs say 25mm .. reality is many (not a few) are 26-27mm and any with vibration absorbiing corners are 26-27mm. 

You don't even know the thickness of TY-14x series .. becaust they are all 26-27mm with published spec of 26.5mm. 

Yes, Arctic P series (even Arctic F series) are decent, especially at the prices they usually sell for. 

Yes, SPL (dBA) is not realy a good measure. Many lower dBA sounds are more intrusive than other higher dBA sounds. Yes, TY-143 ball-bearings (espeically after a few years) to create a rumble audible even at low speeds where that is the only sound coming out of them. I expect new TY-143B with FDB will be a better fan for that reason. I still have 2 systems with very old with years of use TY-140 fans in them still going strong. 

Their charts (bar graphs) are misleading to any viewer who don't know any better and just look at the length of the bars .. and that is why they publish them in that format. The objective results of their bar graphs misleads view. 

But not near as restrictived as many front grills (even bottom grills) with filters behind them .. like in most popular cases sold. 

Not irrelevant for comparisons of 120mm and 140mm fans. I'm planning to build one similar using 8"/203mm tube. Testing fans for data is not easy. I have some expensive gauges for air speed, dBA, etc. What I don't have and need is a resonably priced mmH2O gauge to test fan pressure. If you know of a low cost one please let me know.


----------



## poah

Blameless said:


> It's probably at least mildly restrictive for most fans that don't have stators or other flow focusing mechanisms, so might not be the best way to test pure flow oriented fans. Regardless, the restriction of that tube should be irrelevant for the more pressure focused tests.


I wouldn't waste your time trying to discuss things with doyll. He can't accept someone has a different opinion to his.


----------



## ajx

Pardon for my ignorance, i ordered PWM PST CO, those dual ball bearing? What is it?


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> Pardon for my ignorance, i ordered PWM PST CO, those dual ball bearing? What is it?


Fans have bearings in the motor, well all but Corsair ML which use magnetic levitation. Some of the better .. some consider best fans made like all Gentle Typhoon fans (made by Nidec Servo) and Thermalright TY-143 have ball bearings instead of sleeve bearings.


----------



## BroadPwns

CO is industrial standard bearing, most likely more noisy as well compared to non-CO.


----------



## Blameless

doyll said:


> We all know most fan publish specs say 25mm .. reality is many (not a few) are 26-27mm and any with vibration absorbiing corners are 26-27mm.
> 
> You don't even know the thickness of TY-14x series .. becaust they are all 26-27mm with published spec of 26.5mm.


The overwhelming majority of fans that say they are 25mm thick are 25mm thick within half a mm. A 27mm thick fan that is specified as 25mm thick is something I've never seen (outside of a twisted frame which would be twisted back into shape when it was mounted) and would be a fairly extreme deviation. Fans actually specified at 26-27mm thickness (like these Arctic P series and TR TYs) are quite uncommon. 28mm is actually a standard (though mostly on smaller fans), as is 32mm, but 26-27mm is fairly odd.

Integral vibration dampening (which is also uncommon) might add a little to the thickness of the fans that have them (the only fans I currently have with non-removable vibration dampening are my Cougar CF-V14s and this barely changes their thickness, even uncompressed), but this is rarely an issue because it's compressible. Removable vibration dampening doesn't count because it can just be removed and isn't actually part of the fan.



doyll said:


> Their charts (bar graphs) are misleading to any viewer who don't know any better and just look at the length of the bars .. and that is why they publish them in that format. The objective results of their bar graphs misleads view.


i don't think they were trying to mislead, rather just keep the number of graphs to a manageable level. Separating everything by maximum RPM and again by size would have resulted in a pile of charts with a handful of fans each and made it more difficult to compare things.



doyll said:


> But not near as restrictived as many front grills (even bottom grills) with filters behind them .. like in most popular cases sold.


In the Hardwareluxx test we have: a 102mm deep heatsink with 0.4mm thick fins spaced 3.1mm apart (it's a Macho B); a 16 FPI, 30mm thick Alphacool radiator; descrete wire fan guard/grill (the least restrictive kind); and some very thin/fine nylon filters that Silverstone advertises as being "65%" airflow.

I am not particularly surprised that the heatsink is, narrowly, the most restrictive item in that collection.


----------



## ajx

Why people telling me P12 for rear exhaust isn't efficient as oriented AF fan?
Did anyone have tried SP fans for the rear exhaust?


----------



## ciarlatano

ajx said:


> Why people telling me P12 for rear exhaust isn't efficient as oriented AF fan?
> Did anyone have tried SP fans for the rear exhaust?


Does Corsair still make the AF and SP series fans? They are both mediocre at best, and way overpriced. The P12 is a far better choice than either of those.


----------



## BroadPwns

ajx said:


> Why people telling me P12 for rear exhaust isn't efficient as oriented AF fan?
> Did anyone have tried SP fans for the rear exhaust?


Because they're dumb, I had both SP and AF fans directly before Arctics and Corsairs fans were terrible. Barely pushed any air through them


----------



## poah

Because they are talking nonsense. 


ajx said:


> Why people telling me P12 for rear exhaust isn't efficient as oriented AF fan?
> Did anyone have tried SP fans for the rear exhaust?


----------



## ajx

I wasn't talking about specific Corsair model but Airflow and Static Pressure fan for the rear exhaust in general
Should i pick F12 PWM PST over P12 PWM PST for the rear exhaust?


----------



## poah

Go for the P12


----------



## ciarlatano

ajx said:


> I wasn't talking about specific Corsair model but Airflow and Static Pressure fan for the rear exhaust in general
> Should i pick F12 PWM PST over P12 PWM PST for the rear exhaust?


Pro tip - you should ignore the attempted advice of anyone using the terms "static pressure fan" or "airflow fan" as they obviously have very little grasp on how fans or airflow work. All fans have static pressure, all fans have airflow. What matters is the way the airflow and static pressure interact into a PQ curve, which is the measuring tool which would actually be predictive of the performance in a given scenario, whereas individual airflow and static pressure ratings are not.

And get the P12.


----------



## doyll

I'll add to what @ciarlatano that in most if not all appliations we use fans in the fans with higher pressure ratings will move more air in almost all of the applications we use our fans for. The only time we might see a difference is if we were using them to blow air around a room, an application in which the only resistance to airflow is the air itself .. fans not having to deal with grill, filter, fin, etc resistance. Add the resistance to ariflow of even a wire ring exhaust vent grill and higher pressure rated fans generally more more air. Silverstonetek and PugetSystems have both published info about grill and filter resistance to airflow. 

https://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?tid=wh_chessis&area=usa

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Effects-of-Grill-Patterns-on-Fan-Performance-Noise-107/


----------



## JackCY

ajx said:


> I wasn't talking about specific Corsair model but Airflow and Static Pressure fan for the rear exhaust in general
> Should i pick F12 PWM PST over P12 PWM PST for the rear exhaust?


I have these: 1x F14, 4x P14 PWM PST, 2x P12 PWM.

The F are older design and was meant more as an airflow fan, and yes these terms air flow oriented or static pressure oriented fan are completely fine. The fan is more of a forwarder and blows air out everywhere, lower rpms compared to P series design produce same air volume pushed through when no restrictions exist. With restrictions (grills, fin stacks, ...) the P design fan is better as it can push through and has focused airflow, aka designed to push through restrictions (pressure oriented fan) and needs higher rpms for same volume. Obviously higher rpms also give you higher pressure.
The P motor is better and it's about same loudness overall as the F series at max vs max rpm.

From NIDEC:



> Fan air volume-static pressure characteristic diagram (P-Q curve) is a curve that shows the relationship between the air volume and the static pressure resulting from loss due to the pressure applied to the inlet and the outlet of the fan. The maximum air volume denotes the volume of air flow able to be obtained when the loss due to pressure (static pressure) is 0. And the maximum static pressure refers to the level of pressure (static pressure) at which the maximum loss is caused.


Does any of this matter in reality? Not one bit.

What does? How well does a product perform in your specific application at what cost.
You can look at 100 graphs and argue endlessly, in the end you will still want to look at real world performance vs price. Doesn't matter how much air flow or pressure it has if it works well and costs little. All these numbers and graphs especially from manufacturers can be very deceiving.

For Arctic, get the P series fans, the F are not bad but P are better especially if you're not going to use it as a forwarder.
I have the F14 as exhaust but then I did cut out the grills on my case and more, so there is zero restriction on that fan and P series did not exist back then.

There are some reviews of Arctic fans but most review sites for fans are kind of dead.

Would buy 4 Arctic P fans instead of 1 Noctua fan any time of the day. And I did.

---

Yes cut the grills out, if you don't believe the small percentages in above linked tests.. well easy, take a fan and blow it at your hand, it's nice and strong isn't it, now place a grill behind that fan and put hand at same distance, much weaker now isn't it. The restrictions from grills, filters, fins, are huge. ==> you almost always want a fan for PC cases that can deal with restrictions.


----------



## gupsterg

I still prefer F12 on the 2x 360mm slim rads setup in a closed case. On the open bench the P12 were fine, selling on the P12.

As much as the Silent Wings 3 140mm 1000 rpm fans ooze quality (fan wire is thin, but not as thin as Arctic), I couldn't justifying paying the price they command. I have 3x of those as they came with a Be Quiet Dark Base 900. The attention to detail on the build of the fan is high (excluding cable), rubber edging on fan mating faces, rubber mounts, the ripples on fan blades just add this extra dimension of design detail.

I also have 2x TY-141SV, 5x TY-143. Noise profile in use I like. Frame has more flex than Be Quiet, less than Arctic. Cables are nice and sleeved. The TY-141SV came with Thermalright Archon IB-EX2. At the time of purchase of TY-143 I had seen those at some places online commanding more than I'd pay, I paid £7 per fan.


----------



## Aenra

gupsterg said:


> fan


What heresy is this!? Gupsterg outside the AMD subforum? Talking about .. _other_ things?? :headscrat
And who's doing all the work now, lol!

Someone get the doctor, quick.


----------



## gupsterg

Aenra said:


> What heresy is this!? Gupsterg outside the AMD subforum? Talking about .. _other_ things?? :headscrat
> And who's doing all the work now, lol!
> 
> Someone get the doctor, quick.


LOOL, branching out!  ...


----------



## Aenra

gupsterg said:


> LOOL, branching out!  ...


Be well man


----------



## ajx

ciarlatano said:


> Pro tip - you should ignore the attempted advice of anyone using the terms "static pressure fan" or "airflow fan" as they obviously have very little grasp on how fans or airflow work. All fans have static pressure, all fans have airflow. What matters is the way the airflow and static pressure interact into a PQ curve, which is the measuring tool which would actually be predictive of the performance in a given scenario, whereas individual airflow and static pressure ratings are not.
> 
> And get the P12.


I got P12/P14 from Amazon, they arrived just today :thumb:
Thanks for all you guys for posting good explanations with arguments
I am kinda novice in air cooling in general


----------



## saltedham

so these fans are good? on the level of that 1 noctua fan?


----------



## doyll

saltedham said:


> so these fans are good? on the level of that 1 noctua fan?


We don't really know because they are only a little over a year into use. Only time will tell how long the last. But if the will last 3 years costing 1/3 or less what a Noctua costs for similar performance then they are worth considering.


----------



## gupsterg

Aenra said:


> Be well man


You too chap  .



saltedham said:


> so these fans are good? on the level of that 1 noctua fan?
> 
> 
> 
> doyll said:
> 
> 
> 
> We don't really know because they are only a little over a year into use. Only time will tell how long the last. But if the will last 3 years costing 1/3 or less what a Noctua costs for similar performance then they are worth considering.
Click to expand...

Had my 6x F12 PWM ~2.5yrs, the P12 I used for ~1.5yrs. I had one F12 go a bit rattly at max speed, I pulled blades from motor reseated and in use still. My rigs do a lotta hours of usage, at times continuously for several days.

As much as I like the P12 for price/performance I've twice tried them on my closed case and don't like their sound profile to my ears vs the F12. Open bench the P12 on same rad were fine, but I did use differing fan profile.


----------



## doyll

gupsterg said:


> You too chap  .
> 
> 
> 
> Had my 6x F12 PWM ~2.5yrs, the P12 I used for ~1.5yrs. I had one F12 go a bit rattly at max speed, I pulled blades from motor reseated and in use still. My rigs do a lotta hours of usage, at times continuously for several days.
> 
> As much as I like the P12 for price/performance I've twice tried them on my closed case and don't like their sound profile to my ears vs the F12. Open bench the P12 on same rad were fine, but I did use differing fan profile.


Thanks for the input. Does your case have grill and fliter in front of P12 on radiator? If so that increase is resistance may be what changes sound profile. This was a problem many had with EK Vardar fans.


----------



## ciarlatano

saltedham said:


> so these fans are good? on the level of that 1 noctua fan?





doyll said:


> saltedham said:
> 
> 
> 
> so these fans are good? on the level of that 1 noctua fan?
> 
> 
> 
> We don't really know because they are only a little over a year into use. Only time will tell how long the last. But if the will last 3 years costing 1/3 or less what a Noctua costs for similar performance then they are worth considering.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming "that 1 Noctua fan" is referencing the NF-A12x25. And if that's the case, the answer is a resounding "no". The P12 is a very good price/performance option, and a good fan in general. Price aside, it is not on the level of the NF-A12X25. Anyone thinking so is simply kidding themselves.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> I'm assuming "that 1 Noctua fan" is referencing the NF-A12x25. And if that's the case, the answer is a resounding "no". The P12 is a very good price/performance option, and a good fan in general. Price aside, it is not on the level of the NF-A12X25. Anyone thinking so is simply kidding themselves.


I guess I wasn't clear enough, you state it much better than I did.


----------



## ShogoXT

Yes but it's like 80 percent of the effective performance with a quarter of the cost. 

Considering cases come with crappy airflow fans behind filters, you most certainly get a good increase getting a p14 pwm 5 pack for 33 bucks.

Edit: My current problem now is my new 3950x is cooking at single PC streaming up to 80ish degrees C. Poor Mugen 5 can't keep up even after swapping the fans out with 1500rpm cougar hdb fans.


----------



## gupsterg

gupsterg said:


> Had my 6x F12 PWM ~2.5yrs, the P12 I used for ~1.5yrs. I had one F12 go a bit rattly at max speed, I pulled blades from motor reseated and in use still. My rigs do a lotta hours of usage, at times continuously for several days.
> 
> As much as I like the P12 for price/performance I've twice tried them on my closed case and don't like their sound profile to my ears vs the F12. Open bench the P12 on same rad were fine, but I did use differing fan profile.
> 
> 
> 
> doyll said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input. Does your case have grill and fliter in front of P12 on radiator? If so that increase is resistance may be what changes sound profile. This was a problem many had with EK Vardar fans.
Click to expand...

No problem, no filter, but case has mesh mod.



Spoiler






















Top most panel, the plastic behind horizontal side mesh, I cut to create more free flow of air for exhausting. Between top panel and say end of metal case, any holes, cut outs, etc, sealed with duct tape, so no back draft from fans exhausting through top rad re-enter main case cavity.

Front rad on inside of case, fans on outside of rad as intake to case, then mesh mod to front. I reckon the fans are just over an inch away from front mesh, their outside face is probably inline with vertical mesh on front side of case.

Recently when meddling with RAM OC more, I added an extra F12 PWM on inside of front rad and located a BQSW3 1K rpm fan inline closer to RAM.


----------



## ajx

Hey, i have installed Arctic P12 on my case but i m not sure if its well oriented:
Exhaust on the rear and intake on the front
Did i invert orientation fan side?
Thanks

https://imgur.com/BitoR8L


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> Hey, i have installed Arctic P12 on my case but i m not sure if its well oriented:
> Exhaust on the rear and intake on the front
> Did i invert orientation fan side?
> Thanks
> 
> https://imgur.com/BitoR8L


Side of fan in picture is intake. Fan in picture will move air from right to left.


----------



## ajx

Anyone has good manual curve for P12 PWM PST CO?
I want to try to lower RPM because i can hear it if m close enough to the case
Thanks


----------



## BroadPwns

CO has completely different, more durable dual ball bearing, I'd guess they'll always be audible, more or less.


----------



## ajx

So do not need to set manual curve, can i leave it to auto or silent maybe?


----------



## BroadPwns

Why won't you just adjust them to your liking?


----------



## JackCY

BroadPwns said:


> CO has completely different, more durable dual ball bearing, I'd guess they'll always be audible, more or less.


Yeah ball bearing fans to me always have this grind sound to them from the bearing.

There is nothing one can do about fan noise but alter RPM and remove any close by obstacles such as grills, use spacer to offset it from fin stacks, etc. Pull fans often generate more noise as the grill/stack is near the blades.


----------



## ajx

It makes more buzzy noise similar to a coil whine
I recorded sound on my phone


----------



## doyll

My fan temperature to fan speed is about:
_<_40c = 600rpm
_<_50c = 800rpm
_<_60c = 900rpm
_<_70c = 1100rpm
_>_70c = full speed

Most builds rarely if ever run full speed.


----------



## ajx

I opened case, the noise comes from motor i think
Noctua has similar noise (NF-A12x25) but way more discret


----------



## ajx

Thanks, i have made manual curve for my Artic P12, its much better, but fans only run at 400/500 RPM at idle
At 700/800 RPM its noticeable
I have Ryzen 3600, so temperatures are higher than yours
40/50 -> 20%
50/60 -> 35/40%

400/500 RPM, isnt too slow?


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> Thanks, i have made manual curve for my Artic P12, its much better, but fans only run at 400/500 RPM at idle
> At 700/800 RPM its noticeable
> I have Ryzen 3600, so temperatures are higher than yours
> 40/50 -> 20%
> 50/60 -> 35/40%
> 
> 400/500 RPM, isnt too slow?


Isn't Ryzen 3600 max temp 95c? My 6700k is lower but my i7 920/980 are similar spec. My i7 920 is one of the first released and still going strong @3.8Ghz. I like to think it is partially because it's always ran below 75/78c.


----------



## hazium233

95C is the max temp, which is like a hard throttle limit. But there are other limits in the precision boost algorithm, which define the max clocks in that range, so from that standpoint you want to be a good deal below 95C. 75C is where you enter the high temperature boost limit on newer AGESA.


----------



## Fish#6

*Match your fans if using the 'PST' feature*

I have 5 P14 PWM PST fans in my current pc. All are mounted vertically; three of them as case intakes and two attached to a gpu heatsink. The 'PST' version of the P14 has a handy pigtail allowing you to connect two or more fans together to a single fan header. I've used this to group together my two gpu fans and similarly the two lower of my case fans which feed air to the gpu fans. The nice thing about this is that you have less fan curves to set up. 

The gotcha, which I've only just realised, is that individual P14's _can_ have very different RPM - PWM response curves. You can see below that four fans are very consistent but Fan 3 is miles away (though still working perfectly well). The red rectangle in the graph shows the RPM range I'm interested in - idle @ 350rpm and full load at 800 rpm.








Conclusion: check that fans have similar PWM response curves before using the PST feature to connect them to a shared fan header - otherwise you could end up with two fans running at very different speeds.

Notes: I've connected that 'Fan 3' to a couple of different fan headers and got the same RPM - PWM curves - the difference is real. I bought two of these fans 12 months ago, two of them 9 months ago and one recently but I don't know which of these Fan 3 is, so I don't know if it was always so different or it has drifted (and is maybe on its way out?).


----------



## BroadPwns

WAIT, how do you make a PWM signal that is above 100%?


----------



## Melcar

Fish#6 said:


> I have 5 P14 PWM PST fans in my current pc. All are mounted vertically; three of them as case intakes and two attached to a gpu heatsink. The 'PST' version of the P14 has a handy pigtail allowing you to connect two or more fans together to a single fan header. I've used this to group together my two gpu fans and similarly the two lower of my case fans which feed air to the gpu fans. The nice thing about this is that you have less fan curves to set up.
> 
> The gotcha, which I've only just realised, is that individual P14's _can_ have very different RPM - PWM response curves. You can see below that four fans are very consistent but Fan 3 is miles away (though still working perfectly well). The red rectangle in the graph shows the RPM range I'm interested in - idle @ 350rpm and full load at 800 rpm.
> View attachment 330036
> 
> 
> Conclusion: check that fans have similar PWM response curves before using the PST feature to connect them to a shared fan header - otherwise you could end up with two fans running at very different speeds.
> 
> Notes: I've connected that 'Fan 3' to a couple of different fan headers and got the same RPM - PWM curves - the difference is real. I bought two of these fans 12 months ago, two of them 9 months ago and one recently but I don't know which of these Fan 3 is, so I don't know if it was always so different or it has drifted (and is maybe on its way out?).



Probably some QC issue with the PWM circuitry. Has happened to me with a few different fan makes (recently with a TY-143). Your Fan 3 is probably faulty is this aspect. Annoying when it happens, so glad to tested.


----------



## Skylinestar

What's the cable length of the P12 fan? I have the old F12 where the cable is unable to reach the fan connector of my mATX motherboard in an ATX case.


----------



## doyll

Skylinestar said:


> What's the cable length of the P12 fan? I have the old F12 where the cable is unable to reach the fan connector of my mATX motherboard in an ATX case.


Needing help and asking is one thing, not even Goolging for something as simple as "Arctic P12 cable length" is just being lazy. Third link in list has the answer. Dion't even need to open it.
http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=arctic+p12+cable+length


----------



## ajx

Does anyone have tried P12 PWM PST CO on cpu cooler?
Wondering if it can make a better job than a Noctua F12 (NH-U12S)?


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> Does anyone have tried P12 PWM PST CO on cpu cooler?
> Wondering if it can make a better job than a Noctua F12 (NH-U12S)?


 Noctua NF-F12 is rated 108.3cfm, 2.61mmH2O & 22.4dB(A)​@ 1500RPM. 

P12 PWM PST CO is rated 56.3cfm and 2.2mmH2O & 22.5-24.5dB(A) @ 1800rpm. 

Which one do you think is better?


----------



## JackCY

https://noctua.at/en/nf-f12-pwm/specification

And it's not ball bearing. I'm not sure Noctua makes a single ball bearing fan, they like to use their own HDB bearing.
Ball bearing fans tend to have a noise from the bearing, you will not get rid of it unless you switch to HDB.

The performance difference of fans on coolers is rather low as most improvement to be found is in die thickness, IHS or no IHS, the TIMs, coldplate and how well cooled the plate is using heatpipes or water. By the time the heat gets to fins to be transfered to air... yeah... can't improve much there unless you blast some crazy air vs almost no air.

The easiest way to test it is to buy the fans yourself as almost no one bothers to test such things let alone test fans to begin with.


----------



## poah

ajx said:


> Does anyone have tried P12 PWM PST CO on cpu cooler?
> Wondering if it can make a better job than a Noctua F12 (NH-U12S)?


going by their numbers the noctua has better flow and pressure at max rpm but you don't tend to run fans at 100% in day to day use. I find the noctua fans to sound horridso I wouldn't buy them anyway. Unless someone had actually tested the fans on a cooler you won't be able to tell how they perform. given the price difference between the fans I wouldn't bother with the noctua's


----------



## doyll

Seem's rather obvious ajx has NH-U12S cooler which comes with NF-A12 fan, so I rather doubt they would be buying NF-A12 .. and as it's most likey better than Arctic P there is no reason to buy one.


----------



## ajx

I actually replaced my Arctic P12 fans by SW3, wondering if adding a P12 on Noctua NH-U12S would be worth if?
NH-U12S comes with F12 not A12x25 
Mine is Chromax, i only tolerate black fan


----------



## poah

ajx said:


> I actually replaced my Arctic P12 fans by SW3, wondering if adding a P12 on Noctua NH-U12S would be worth if?
> NH-U12S comes with F12 not A12x25
> Mine is Chromax, i only tolerate black fan


would't bother unless there is an issue with the fan.


----------



## Skylinestar

doyll said:


> Needing help and asking is one thing, not even Goolging for something as simple as "Arctic P12 cable length" is just being lazy. Third link in list has the answer. Dion't even need to open it.
> http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=arctic+p12+cable+length


Just want to confirm as techfortechs review (https://www.techfortechs.co.uk/arctic-p12-pwm-pst) says 38cm while others say 40cm (just like the F12).


----------



## ajx

Its in between, i have measured it


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> I actually replaced my Arctic P12 fans by SW3, wondering if adding a P12 on Noctua NH-U12S would be worth if?
> NH-U12S comes with F12 not A12x25
> Mine is Chromax, i only tolerate black fan


How to you like the SW3 compared to P12? Are your SW3 high speed model?

My bad, I know it comes with F12.  

Even posted specs for F12 a few posts back.
NF-A12x25 at 2000rpm is 60.09cfm , 2.34mmH2O & 22.6dB(A) @ 2200rpm
NF-A12x25 at 1700rpm is 49.7cfm, 1.65mmH2O & 18.8dB(A) @ 1700rpm

Noctua NF-F12 is rated 55.5cfm, 2.61mmH2O & 22.4dB(A)@ 1500RPM. 

I can't find any independent testing of both, but Noctua specs show F12 has higher airflow and higher static pressure ratings than A12x25 at basically the same noise level running 500rpm slower.
Have you monitored airflow temp into cooler? I always do this on new design case builds to be sure the airflow into coolers (CPU & GPU is only a few degrees higher than room ambient, even if system is running cool and quiet. It's the only way to know, and if it's more than 3-4c above room temp I adjust case airflow to improve it. First by increasing case fan speeds, then if needed changing fan placement and/or better case fans.

If you do change them could you run some testing with each? 

You might find the below link is to basic guide to airflow and how to optimize case airflow of interest. At end is one of the cheap indoor/oudoor digital wired remote sensor thermometers I use to monitor airflow temp into coolers.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319249-post5.html


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> How to you like the SW3 compared to P12? Are your SW3 high speed model?


You already know the answer to that - https://www.overclock.net/forum/246...airflow-cooler-fan-data-171.html#post28350112


----------



## Melcar

doyll said:


> How to you like the SW3 compared to P12? Are your SW3 high speed model?
> 
> ...
> NF-A12x25 at 2000rpm is 60.09cfm , 2.34mmH2O & 22.6dB(A) @ 2200rpm
> NF-A12x25 at 1700rpm is 49.7cfm, 1.65mmH2O & 18.8dB(A) @ 1700rpm
> 
> Noctua NF-F12 is rated 108.3cfm, 2.61mmH2O & 22.4dB(A)@ 1500RPM.
> 
> I can't find any independent testing of both, but Noctua specs show F12 has higher airflow and higher static pressure ratings than A12x25 at basically the same noise level running 500rpm slower.
> ...



The NF-F12 should be about 54cfm at max rpm according to Noctua's own spec list.


----------



## doyll

Melcar said:


> The NF-F12 should be about 54cfm at max rpm according to Noctua's own spec list.


Specs say 93,4 m³/h which converts to 55.5 cfm, so closer to your post than mine.  Must have goofed when I converted  m³/h.  At last the rest of specs I posted are correct. 
I've edited mistake out of original post so other readers are not confused by my mistake.


----------



## ajx

I have tested P12 PST PWM CO PST on my Noctua NH-U12S Chromax / Ryzen 5 3600

- Single tower NF-F12 Chromax on Noctua NH-U12S, with silent curve give me around 50c at idle, lowest 44/45c, highest above 68

- Adding P12 for dual fans, around 44c, lowest 36.5, highest 62 (same settings)

- I let F12 on the front and P12 on the rear (F12 oriented to ram slots, P12 oriented toward rear exhaust fan)

Temps have been decreased by 5-6 temp

I plugged F12 into P12 own splitter, dunno if its better to chain them and use native splitter of P12 and plug them into one PWM connector or split them into 2 separate connectors (CPU_FAN and CPU_OPT)


----------



## Skylinestar

I'm from SEA region and this ebay deal for P12 looks like the cheapest:
https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/Arctic-...2934830069?hash=item54809a03f5:i:362934830069

Is there better deal out there that do free international shipping? I'm ok to buy a pack. Is it even OK to buy online (more so international) during this pandemic?


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> You already know the answer to that - https://www.overclock.net/forum/246...airflow-cooler-fan-data-171.html#post28350112


I'm forgetful with short memory. Besides it's in a different thread no dedicated to Arctic P series fans. 



Skylinestar said:


> I'm from SEA region and this ebay deal for P12 looks like the cheapest:
> https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/Arctic-...2934830069?hash=item54809a03f5:i:362934830069
> 
> Is there better deal out there that do free international shipping? I'm ok to buy a pack. Is it even OK to buy online (more so international) during this pandemic?


 OcUK is lower priced, not sure what shipping cost is. I've been member with free shipping for donkey's years. 
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/search?sSearch=arctic+p12

They have Phanteks PH-F120MP in 2-packs for £14.99, so £7.50 each if you can get free shipping. Many, myself included believe they are much better fan. 
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/two-...120mm-fan-radiator-performance-bu-002-pt.html


----------



## bMind

I know it's a bit of a price gap but would you recommend P12 PST CO over let's say..Silent Wings 3 if we're talking case/rack fans to push air (so SP) but with as low noise as possible with still maintaining reasonable performance?


----------



## bigboy678

bMind said:


> I know it's a bit of a price gap but would you recommend P12 PST CO over let's say..Silent Wings 3 if we're talking case/rack fans to push air (so SP) but with as low noise as possible with still maintaining reasonable performance?


The silent wings 3 is a very good fan, will last longer than aan arctic fan, and is a very good performer while be quiet enough for most. That being said price is a very big point as you mentioned. 1 silent wings 3 fan is around $25 where as i could get 5 pack arctic p12 pst for the price same price (a little hard to find right now but still does pop up). personally if you are replacing a few fans i would try to the 5 pack of the arctic p12's first and if you dont like them you can save them for another build/give them away/sell them and then buy the silent wings 3 fans. you have the potential to save quite a bit of money by trying the arctic fans first


----------



## doyll

bigboy678 said:


> The silent wings 3 is a very good fan, will last longer than aan arctic fan, and is a very good performer while be quiet enough for most. That being said price is a very big point as you mentioned. 1 silent wings 3 fan is around $25 where as i could get 5 pack arctic p12 pst for the price same price (a little hard to find right now but still does pop up). personally if you are replacing a few fans i would try to the 5 pack of the arctic p12's first and if you dont like them you can save them for another build/give them away/sell them and then buy the silent wings 3 fans. you have the potential to save quite a bit of money by trying the arctic fans first


On a limited budget 
at Arctic P12 PST while not as good and not as nice a sounding will likely serve you well.


----------



## bMind

bigboy678 said:


> The silent wings 3 is a very good fan, will last longer than aan arctic fan, and is a very good performer while be quiet enough for most. That being said price is a very big point as you mentioned. 1 silent wings 3 fan is around $25 where as i could get 5 pack arctic p12 pst for the price same price (a little hard to find right now but still does pop up). personally if you are replacing a few fans i would try to the 5 pack of the arctic p12's first and if you dont like them you can save them for another build/give them away/sell them and then buy the silent wings 3 fans. you have the potential to save quite a bit of money by trying the arctic fans first


Thank you! I was actually leaning to what you are suggesting - getting 4 x Arctic P12 PWM PST (still not sure if to go for the CO) and seeing how they are. The will be still cheaper than 1.5 of Silent Wings 3. On Amazon.de they're for 7 € atm (CO version, regular is 5.6 € )


----------



## JackCY

bigboy678 said:


> The silent wings 3 is a very good fan, will last longer than aan arctic fan, and is a very good performer while be quiet enough for most. That being said price is a very big point as you mentioned. 1 silent wings 3 fan is around $25 where as i could get 5 pack arctic p12 pst for the price same price (a little hard to find right now but still does pop up). personally if you are replacing a few fans i would try to the 5 pack of the arctic p12's first and if you dont like them you can save them for another build/give them away/sell them and then buy the silent wings 3 fans. you have the potential to save quite a bit of money by trying the arctic fans first


Source/proof of the claim?

SW3 is FDB and while I don't like ball bearing fans due to their noise, the PWM PST CO is Japanese dual ball bearing. So I really want to see how FDB in long terms tests have survived longer than double ball bearing. And what does it even mean last longer, does it mean not grinding? Still spinning?



bMind said:


> Thank you! I was actually leaning to what you are suggesting - getting 4 x Arctic P12 PWM PST (still not sure if to go for the CO) and seeing how they are. The will be still cheaper than 1.5 of Silent Wings 3. On Amazon.de they're for 7 € atm (CO version, regular is 5.6 € )


The CO are ball bearing, so if you want that, get that. Otherwise the regular PWM version is fine.


----------



## poah

bigboy678 said:


> The silent wings 3 is a very good fan, will last longer than an arctic fan,



have you any actual proof a SW3 will last longer than a P12? P12 has a 10 year warranty remember


----------



## bMind

So I got 4 Arctic P14s. They were more than half the price of SW3. I love beQuiet, I really do..but thinking that I need at least 4 and probably twice that amount..just couldn't justify the cause. So far? I am impressed. I just plugged them fast wire-to-wire to the controller, to make sure they're ok and ok they are. With speeds around 900-1100 they are fine to sit by, probably even up to 1300. Totally silent from the living room (my office is open to it on kind of +1 level). I will use home made rubber pads when I will be mounting them in the rack (after I'll drill the 140 mounting holes). I'll report back after I'll get everything in.


----------



## doyll

bMind said:


> So I got 4 Arctic P14s. They were more than half the price of SW3. I love beQuiet, I really do..but thinking that I need at least 4 and probably twice that amount..just couldn't justify the cause. So far? I am impressed. I just plugged them fast wire-to-wire to the controller, to make sure they're ok and ok they are. With speeds around 900-1100 they are fine to sit by, probably even up to 1300. Totally silent from the living room (my office is open to it on kind of +1 level). I will use home made rubber pads when I will be mounting them in the rack (after I'll drill the 140 mounting holes). I'll report back after I'll get everything in.


I often use small rubber grommets as vibration dampeners. Usually need to drill out hole in mounting panel. Link below shows how I use them.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/246...better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data-5.html


----------



## Axaion

doyll said:


> I often use small rubber grommets as vibration dampeners. Usually need to drill out hole in mounting panel. Link below shows how I use them.
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...an-data-5.html


Just popping by to say link is broken


----------



## doyll

Axaion said:


> Just popping by to say link is broken


Fixed it just for you.


----------



## Axaion




----------



## cloppy007

doyll said:


> I often use small rubber grommets as vibration dampeners. Usually need to drill out hole in mounting panel. Link below shows how I use them.
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/246...better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data-5.html


Nice.

On rads and case fans I use silicone o-rings on the screw head, plus something extra between the rad (such as neoprene) and the fan body.


----------



## doyll

cloppy007 said:


> Nice.
> 
> On rads and case fans I use silicone o-rings on the screw head, plus something extra between the rad (such as neoprene) and the fan body.


Should work fine as long as screws do not touch case between o-ring and whatever is on fan side. The reason I use grommets is so fan screws cannot touch anything but grommet .. screws are completely isolated from case so no vibration can transfit from screw to case.


----------



## bMind

doyll said:


> I often use small rubber grommets as vibration dampeners. Usually need to drill out hole in mounting panel. Link below shows how I use them.
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/246...better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data-5.html


Thanks!


----------



## SlvrDragon50

Glad I came across this thread. I thought the P14 was not a suitable replacement for the F14, thanks!


----------



## doyll

Not Arctic, but here is independent testing of Corsair AF140Q and Phanteks PH-F140MP


----------



## SlvrDragon50

doyll said:


> Not Arctic, but here is independent testing of Corsair AF140Q and Phanteks PH-F140MP


Nice! Always knew Phanteks 140s were good. I think I'm still going to go for Arctic P14s though. Just need them to get back in stock!


----------



## Melcar

The PH-F140MP are really good. I have them as case fans on my Enthoo Pro with double filters and they still manage to pull plenty of air inside even at 800rpm. Only problem I have with them is their slightly annoying sound profile at high speeds (they "hum" a lot). Hell, my TY-143s sound nicer to my ears at 2000rpm than the PH-140MP at 1500rpm.


----------



## rares495

I love my P12s and P14s. Better than the Corsair ML120s I bought a while ago.


----------



## doyll

rares495 said:


> I love my P12s and P14s. Better than the Corsair ML120s I bought a while ago.


MLs are marginal at best. Phanteks PH-F120MP vs ML120 in independent testing show Ph-F120MP having much higher static pressure at speed we normaly use fans, and higher pressure ratings translates mean fan is able to overcome more grill and filter resistance (or rad resistance) with more airflow.


----------



## ciarlatano

rares495 said:


> I love my P12s and P14s. Better than the Corsair ML120s I bought a while ago.





doyll said:


> MLs are marginal at best. Phanteks PH-F120MP vs ML120 in independent testing show Ph-F120MP having much higher static pressure at speed we normaly use fans, and higher pressure ratings translates mean fan is able to overcome more grill and filter resistance (or rad resistance) with more airflow.


Yes.....this is grape Kool Aid to cherry Kool Aid changeout.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Yes.....this is grape Kool Aid to cherry Kool Aid changeout.


 LOL Was a sad time. 



I see in today's news people who have Coronavirus are in the White House. Poetic justice?


----------



## rares495

ciarlatano said:


> Yes.....this is grape Kool Aid to cherry Kool Aid changeout.


?? Translate from murican to english, please. I don't speak school shooter.


----------



## doyll

rares495 said:


> ?? Translate from murican to english, please. I don't speak school shooter.


 If you google "*Jonestown* *kool aid*" and you will see the where and why of the cool aird saying. Jonestown, Guyana, on November 18, 1978 918 people, mostly American civilians died. Largest number in history until 9/11.


----------



## rares495

doyll said:


> If you google "*Jonestown* *kool aid*" and you will see the where and why of the cool aird saying. Jonestown, Guyana, on November 18, 1978 918 people, mostly American civilians died. Largest number in history until 9/11.


Still don't know how that applies to fans but ok.


----------



## doyll

rares495 said:


> Still don't know how that applies to fans but ok.


It refers to how people with do stupid things for no reason except others are doing it. The huge following Arctic P series fan has is an example. Reality is Arctic F fans perform about the same as Artic P fans. Both are mediocre fans at reasonable prices. But they are not even close to being as good as many others.


----------



## rares495

doyll said:


> It refers to how people with do stupid things for no reason except others are doing it. The huge following Arctic P series fan has is an example. Reality is Arctic F fans perform about the same as Artic P fans. Both are mediocre fans at reasonable prices. But they are not even close to being as good as many others.


Well I like their sound. Way better than some other fans.

Remember that these are $5 fans. FIVE. DOLLARS. A $30 Noctua A14 will be better, of course, but that doesn't matter. You're paying a lot more for very little gain. You can literally buy 5 P14s for the price of a single A14.


----------



## SlvrDragon50

rares495 said:


> Well I like their sound. Way better than some other fans.
> 
> Remember that these are $5 fans. FIVE. DOLLARS. A $30 Noctua A14 will be better, of course, but that doesn't matter. You're paying a lot more for very little gain. You can literally buy 5 P14s for the price of a single A14.


Absolute truth.


----------



## doyll

rares495 said:


> Well I like their sound. Way better than some other fans.
> 
> Remember that these are $5 fans. FIVE. DOLLARS. A $30 Noctua A14 will be better, of course, but that doesn't matter. You're paying a lot more for very little gain. You can literally buy 5 P14s for the price of a single A14.


You are talking extremes. It doesn't cost 6 times as much to get much better fans. There are very good fans for $8-12.00.


----------



## poah

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Absolute truth.


absolute nonsense. just because something costs more doesn't make it better.


----------



## airisom2

Uh...you guys do know you're arguing over some fans right? You know, those little plastic things that spin round and round. Is it really that important?


----------



## Dogzilla07

So what, I've been arguing about fans, coolers, power supplies and cases for years now, and before that, I was arguing about stuff in video games since forever. There's no such thing as a small or big enough object or topic to argue about, because the act arguing/debating itself is secondary in an argument, the primary important thing is hashing out the truth and/or personal knowledge/experience.


----------



## doyll

rares495 said:


> Well I like their sound. Way better than some other fans.
> 
> Remember that these are $5 fans. FIVE. DOLLARS. A $30 Noctua A14 will be better, of course, but that doesn't matter. You're paying a lot more for very little gain. You can literally buy 5 P14s for the price of a single A14.


 I agree, for $5 plus tax they are not a bad fan. Here at OcUK Arctic P14 PWM PST are £6.04 / $7.59 and I can buy much better PH-F140MP 2-pack for £14.14 which is .$8.73 a fan plus tax. 

Something most don't know is Arctic F series perform about the same as Arctic P series. People say Artic F series are decent and low priced, but don't rave on about them like people do about Arctic P series fans. Link below is to Hardwareluxx.de testing:
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...erspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html?start=5


----------



## rares495

doyll said:


> I agree, for $5 plus tax they are not a bad fan. Here at OcUK Arctic P14 PWM PST are £6.04 / $7.59 and I can buy much better PH-TC14PE 2-pack for £14.14 which is .$8.73 a fan plus tax.
> 
> Something most don't know is Arctic F series perform about the same as Arctic P series. People say Artic F series are decent and low priced, but don't rave on about them like people do about Arctic P series fans. Link below is to Hardwareluxx.de testing:
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...erspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html?start=5



Those numbers are incredible for $5.


----------



## bigboy678

doyll said:


> I agree, for $5 plus tax they are not a bad fan. Here at OcUK Arctic P14 PWM PST are £6.04 / $7.59 and I can buy much better PH-TC14PE 2-pack for £14.14 which is .$8.73 a fan plus tax.
> 
> Something most don't know is Arctic F series perform about the same as Arctic P series. People say Artic F series are decent and low priced, but don't rave on about them like people do about Arctic P series fans. Link below is to Hardwareluxx.de testing:
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...erspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html?start=5


sadly i have not been able to find the PH-F140MP in the US for less than $15. we also have no 2 pack deals to be seen with them. I wish there was


----------



## doyll

rares495 said:


> Those numbers are incredible for $5.


The point of the post was to show that Arctic P are just another middle of the pack fan at middle of the pack prices that are no better than earlier Arctic F series fans. Only difference is this time many who don't know any better are believing they are incredible.


----------



## rares495

doyll said:


> The point of the post was to show that Arctic P are just another middle of the pack fan at middle of the pack prices that are no better than earlier Arctic F series fans. Only difference is this time many who don't know any better are believing they are incredible.


Those charts don't show noise levels. My nazi is a bit rusty but managed to find the info. Those top fans are also louder. Well...maybe except for the A14 but that again is $35.


----------



## doyll

rares495 said:


> Those charts don't show noise levels. My nazi is a bit rusty but managed to find the info. Those top fans are also louder. Well...maybe except for the A14 but that again is $35.


Maybe if you looked at next page you would have noticed that is where all the sound level data is. :buttkick: 

I was showing the have simialr airflow against same resistance, nothing more. Next page is sound level test data.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Maybe if you looked at next page you would have noticed that is where all the sound level data is. :buttkick:
> 
> I was showing the have simialr airflow against same resistance, nothing more. Next page is sound level test data.


You need to pick your battles......


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> You need to pick your battles......


ROFL


Maybe we should tell them drinking antifreeze would them from getting Coronavirus .. or any otherthing else for that matter.


----------



## poah

doyll said:


> I agree, for $5 plus tax they are not a bad fan. Here at OcUK Arctic P14 PWM PST are £6.04 / $7.59 and I can buy much better PH-TC14PE 2-pack for £14.14 which is .$8.73 a fan plus tax.
> 
> Something most don't know is Arctic F series perform about the same as Arctic P series.



the P series fans perform much better than the F series so stop talking nonsense.

Have you any information that shows noise and temp differences between the P series and the TC14PE to back up your "much better" statement.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> the P series fans perform much better than the F series so stop talking nonsense.
> 
> Have you any information that shows noise and temp differences between the P series and the TC14PE to back up your "much better" statement.


Have another glass of cool aid to settle your nerves. 

Can you show me some credible data that shows both Arctic P and Arctic C fans being tested against each other like I did above? 

What kind of "noise and temp differences between the P series and PH-TC14PE" can there be? 
One is a fan and the other is a cooler. 

After you explaining and do that I might show you other things.


----------



## SlvrDragon50

poah said:


> absolute nonsense. just because something costs more doesn't make it better.


? What? You're not understanding what I said at all. I am agreeing that the P14 PWM has great value. To say that it is better than the Noctua is silly though as the Noctua is objectively better.


----------



## SlvrDragon50

doyll said:


> You are talking extremes. It doesn't cost 6 times as much to get much better fans. There are very good fans for $8-12.00.


Not in the US. P14 PWM is the absolute king in the budget category. The only way you're stepping up is to pay $15-20/fan.


----------



## Fish#6

Here are those hardwareluxx.de results for 140mm fans in a more useful format. For methodology please read the article at https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-serie-verspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html
Unfortunately there were a couple of data points missing for the Arctic Bionix F140 and it would have been helpful if they'd also tested at lower rpm than just 1000 & maximum.




























Based on this one set of results: 



The Arctic P14 PWM looks like an outstanding radiator and heatsink fan. Unless you need maximum performance and don't care about noise.
The P14 is in absolute terms only an average case fan, though still very good for the price.
 For anyone who wants to check whether I screwed up in re-typing and plotting the data, here's my worksheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bVMu_YDsG4Lk5AhsbWxGLUNj1H4eAKUcDPbr6heeoKs/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## BroadPwns

Fish#6 said:


> Here are those hardwareluxx.de results for 140mm fans in a more useful format. For methodology please read the article at https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-serie-verspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html
> Unfortunately there were a couple of data points missing for the Arctic Bionix F140 and it would have been helpful if they'd also tested at lower rpm than just 1000 & maximum.
> 
> View attachment 345856
> View attachment 345858
> 
> View attachment 345860
> View attachment 345862
> 
> 
> Based on this one set of results:
> 
> 
> 
> The Arctic P14 PWM looks like an outstanding radiator and heatsink fan. Unless you need maximum performance and don't care about noise.
> The P14 is in absolute terms only an average case fan, though still very good for the price.
> For anyone who wants to check whether I screwed up in re-typing and plotting the data, here's my worksheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bVMu_YDsG4Lk5AhsbWxGLUNj1H4eAKUcDPbr6heeoKs/edit?usp=sharing



Grill is like a top side of cases, right?


----------



## Fish#6

BroadPwns said:


> Grill is like a top side of cases, right?



Don't know - they don't say, but have a look at the gallery in their testing Methodology page. They show two different types of grill, a ring grill and a very widely-spaced mesh grill, both of which appear to be relatively unrestricted.


----------



## poah

SlvrDragon50 said:


> ? What? You're not understanding what I said at all. I am agreeing that the P14 PWM has great value. To say that it is better than the Noctua is silly though as the Noctua is objectively better.



sorry, I was disagreeing with dickle


----------



## pewpewlazer

doyll said:


> I agree, for $5 plus tax they are not a bad fan. Here at OcUK Arctic P14 PWM PST are £6.04 / $7.59 and *I can buy much better PH-TC14PE 2-pack for £14.14 which is .$8.73 a fan* plus tax.
> 
> Something most don't know is Arctic F series perform about the same as Arctic P series. People say Artic F series are decent and low priced, but don't rave on about them like people do about Arctic P series fans. Link below is to Hardwareluxx.de testing:
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...erspricht-hohen-statischen-druck.html?start=5


Got any data showing that the PH-TC14PE is "much better" than the P14? Because the link you posted shows that the Arctic P14 PWM is the best (radiator) fan around, although they didn't test the PH-TC14PE... So overall a very confusing link to post. It doesn't include the fan you claim is "much better", it shows the P14 absolutely CLOBBERING the F140 you claim "performs about the same", and it completely refutes your claim that the P14 is "middle of the pack fan".



doyll said:


> What kind of "noise and temp differences between the P series and PH-TC14PE" can there be?
> *One is a fan and the other is a cooler*.
> 
> After you explaining and do that I might show you other things.


*YOU* are the one who called the PH-TC14PE a fan in the first place. In case you forgot, or overlooked it in the quote from your post above, here it is again: _"I can buy much better *PH-TC14PE 2-pack for £14.14 which is .$8.73 a fan* plus tax."_

Anyway, with that nonsense out of the way, I have an actual topic I'd like to discuss. I recall someone mentioning that they noticed that their P12/P14 fans operated at slightly different speeds for a given PWM speed %. As if there was a variance between units or manufacturing lots.

I had recently rebuilt my machine in a Define 7 XL, which was able to fit 2x 420 rads in push/pull, so I added a few more P14s compared to my old build. After booting up with the new build, it seemed strange that my radiator fans were reading ~640 RPM at my 'idle' speed of 35%. I could have sworn they had ran slower previously, but I brushed it off as remembering incorrectly... until I saw the comment about fan speed variance.

The other oddity I noticed was that my P14 PWM PSTs had a distinct physical difference. I had originally purchased (2) 5 packs of these fans, and purchased another (2) 5 packs when upgrading to the Define 7 XL since I knew I'd need at least 12 fans for my radiators. The "old fans" from my original order had two distinctions. The power cable 'tail' for the "PST" connector was noticeably shorter than the "new fans". Also, on the fan hub where the Arctic logo and other information is presented, the "old fans" have a number "851", while the "new fans" are stamped with the number "940". Otherwise, the fans all look identical. Boxes and part numbers identical as well.

So since I had 2 "old fans" and 4 "new fans" laying around unused, I deiced to see if there were any differences. I ended up testing all 6 fans at 20% through 100% speed (in 10% increments) using the same exact fan output on my Aquaero 6 LT. The results were... surprising. Three of the four "new fans" were relatively close, maxing out at 1650 RPM. The fourth wasn't too far off at 1620 RPM max. Unfortunately I have no idea which of these fans came out of which 5 pack, so maybe the 3 close fans came out of one pack while the outlier came from another. But the two "old fans" were a shocker. One topped out at 1740 RPM, while the other only hit 1630. The linearity of the two "old fans" is much worse as well.

Is this remotely normal? I have no idea. I have 8 ML140s here I could try, but quite frankly, testing fan PWM response is about as boring as watching paint dry, so I had no interest in doing that. All I know is that it can't be ideal to have some of my push/pull radiator fans spinning 640 RPM, while others spin at 575 RPM...


----------



## deepor

@pewpewlazer:

I think that's normal, each individual fan is slightly different. Maybe also every motherboard fan header is different? And I know if I put two fans onto a Y-cable, then I get lower speed on the one fan that I can measure through the Y-cable.

I only have good measurements for two Silent Wings 3 High Speed PWM. Here's two CSV files with my measurements:



Code:


==> sws3-hs-pwm-140mm A.csv <==
PWM output, Fan speed, Fan speed 2, Fan speed 3, Fan speed 4, Fan speed 5
0%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
5%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
10%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
15%, 266, 261, 265, 269, 261
20%, 368, 370, 373, 373, 373
25%, 479, 474, 464, 479, 473
30%, 577, 573, 575, 572, 566
35%, 661, 663, 669, 669, 661
40%, 751, 747, 752, 751, 750
45%, 834, 836, 834, 840, 836
50%, 910, 912, 912, 932, 902
55%, 995, 978, 1000, 978, 995
60%, 1079, 1062, 1080, 1079, 1080
65%, 1161, 1163, 1137, 1135, 1161
70%, 1216, 1244, 1216, 1216, 1243
75%, 1314, 1308, 1315, 1286, 1286
80%, 1390, 1391, 1391, 1383, 1362
85%, 1465, 1465, 1434, 1465, 1467
90%, 1506, 1532, 1542, 1506, 1539
95%, 1607, 1605, 1607, 1569, 1571
100%, 1652, 1650, 1650, 1650, 1687




Code:


==> sws3-hs-pwm-140mm B.csv <==
PWM output, Fan speed, Fan speed 2, Fan speed 3, Fan speed 4, Fan speed 5
0%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
5%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
10%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
15%, 240, 243, 241, 241, 244
20%, 339, 343, 334, 344, 348
25%, 426, 432, 434, 427, 428
30%, 525, 527, 531, 523, 533
35%, 605, 613, 612, 606, 613
40%, 703, 699, 692, 696, 700
45%, 772, 773, 787, 773, 769
50%, 834, 853, 837, 833, 837
55%, 915, 931, 926, 910, 907
60%, 991, 989, 1006, 984, 1006
65%, 1062, 1086, 1062, 1061, 1061
70%, 1138, 1160, 1154, 1155, 1161
75%, 1203, 1204, 1239, 1204, 1206
80%, 1306, 1298, 1268, 1305, 1277
85%, 1377, 1376, 1377, 1377, 1370
90%, 1440, 1416, 1448, 1439, 1454
95%, 1506, 1510, 1508, 1481, 1473
100%, 1580, 1548, 1555, 1557, 1582

I used a script to create these files. The script sets a certain PWM speed on a fan header and then waits a few seconds. Then it checks fan speed five times every two seconds. That's why you see five columns of speeds in this table.

If you look at for example the 50% row, you can see a pretty big difference between those two fans I tested. One is around 840 rpm and the other around 920 rpm.

Here's another file where I've put both fans onto a Y-cable. What's measured here is the first of the two fans I shared earlier. You can see that its max speed drops a bit:



Code:


==> sws3-hs-pwm-140mm A+B (splitter).csv <==
PWM output, Fan speed, Fan speed 2, Fan speed 3, Fan speed 4, Fan speed 5
0%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
5%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
10%, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
15%, 267, 268, 265, 263, 266
20%, 377, 373, 368, 373, 367
25%, 473, 473, 474, 470, 471
30%, 565, 569, 566, 571, 568
35%, 652, 657, 669, 661, 659
40%, 760, 743, 746, 747, 747
45%, 828, 831, 827, 831, 846
50%, 902, 902, 903, 907, 902
55%, 974, 973, 989, 967, 973
60%, 1043, 1043, 1043, 1043, 1062
65%, 1125, 1127, 1127, 1127, 1127
70%, 1228, 1223, 1203, 1228, 1202
75%, 1266, 1266, 1267, 1265, 1294
80%, 1337, 1366, 1358, 1358, 1359
85%, 1416, 1416, 1415, 1407, 1415
90%, 1475, 1468, 1510, 1485, 1477
95%, 1539, 1548, 1539, 1539, 1549
100%, 1614, 1652, 1614, 1614, 1605

All of these measurements were done on the exact same motherboard fan header. The fans were mounted with open air in front and behind them. The fans were in the front of the case, the side panel was open, the front panel was removed, there was no dust filter, there was no drive cages or similar behind the fans.


----------



## sultanofswing

I've got a bunch of P12 PWM PST's in my build and they perform only Marginally worse than my NF-A12x25's and are way quieter.


----------



## Alastair

Anyone give me an idea on how these compare to Eloops like the B12-P or the B12-4?


----------



## Fish#6

pewpewlazer said:


> ... I recall someone mentioning that they noticed that their P12/P14 fans operated at slightly different speeds for a given PWM speed %. As if there was a variance between units or manufacturing lots. ...


Yep, that was me a couple of pages back. I went through a similar exercise of plotting rpm vs pwm signal for each of my 5 P14's. 4 were very close and one significantly different. I also don't know whether the 'variant' fan was a new or an old one. I now have individual fan curves for each fan so that I can closely align their performance. You could obviously do the same, or, now that you've plotted performance, ensure that only closely matched fans share the same fan curve.


----------



## pewpewlazer

deepor said:


> @pewpewlazer:
> 
> I think that's normal, each individual fan is slightly different. Maybe also every motherboard fan header is different? And I know if I put two fans onto a Y-cable, then I get lower speed on the one fan that I can measure through the Y-cable.
> 
> I only have good measurements for two Silent Wings 3 High Speed PWM. Here's two CSV files with my measurements:
> 
> *snip*
> 
> All of these measurements were done on the exact same motherboard fan header. The fans were mounted with open air in front and behind them. The fans were in the front of the case, the side panel was open, the front panel was removed, there was no dust filter, there was no drive cages or similar behind the fans.


Interesting results. I wasn't to terribly surprised to see differences between samples of my sub $7/each fans, but I'd be pretty irritated if I had spent $20++ per fan and still had that kind of inconsistency.

The Y-splitter results don't surprise me, especially since it starts to trail off at higher speeds. The additional power draw of the second fan probably causes a bit more voltage drop.

I just went through testing my 6 front radiator fans and I'm pretty confident that there was a revision of some sort. I left the fans on the radiator, but tested one at a time. My "free air" test results show a similar trend overall, and being "on the rad" doesn't seem to affect speed until above 50%. Anyway, I had 3 new fans on the push side of the rad, and 3 old fans on the pull side. The 3 new fans all behaved similarly, and the 3 old fans were similar as well, but I averaged the 3 samples for each. New vs old however, is not so close:

PWM "NEW" P14	"OLD" P14	OLD - NEW
20% 388 254	-134
30% 556 454	-102
40% 722 650	-72
50% 872 826	-46
60% 1015 984	-31
70% 1156 1141	-15
80% 1285 1290 4
90% 1410 1427 16
99% 1565 1601 36

The low end of the "old" fans is slower, around 250-260 RPM at 20% (even in free air), while the "new" fans all run around 370-390 RPM at 20%. Even in free air, there's a distinct crossover point at around 75% where the "old" fans start running slightly higher speeds than the new ones.

I find 1000 RPM to be about the absolute limit I can tolerate noise wise, so I went ahead and swapped the old fans out for new ones so that all 6 of my front rad fans run close in speed off the same Splitty9. Whether or not it makes a difference, who knows. But it makes me feel better at least.


----------



## pshych0

I've been looking for info on the P14, but there's very little actual testing going around. At least I found some useful stuff here, so thanks for that.

I also wanted to share these German videos I found (sorry if they're buries somewhere in here, i coudn't find them):

120mm comparison with P12 PWM and Silent, NF-A12x25, LL120, B12-PS 



140mm comparison with P14 PWM, Vardar evo, B14-PS, NF-A14, SW3 




So...the guys is Derbauer (guessing most of you know him) and would trust him 100% but the videos are from Caseking (a retailer) so i don't know if this is a legit test or just a "smart ad". Also, I don't understand German, I have no idea how and what was tested. They include just the airflow and noise. I'm guessing people here with more experience can figure out how legit the numbers are by comparison with other independent tests of better known fans like the Noctuas or SW3.

My P14s should arrive tomorrow...really curious about the noise, but i can only compare them with NF-A15.

Hope it helps.


----------



## D-EJ915

Without knowing what radiator he used I can't compare exactly but when I tested a bunch of those fans on my EK CE rad last year at 960 RPM on my controller the results chart basically matches up. My vardar 140s did slightly better but could be from the rad difference so I think his numbers would be pretty trustworthy.


----------



## airisom2

Surprising after almost 2 years there still isn't a review of these fans backed by a solid testing methodology. But if I'm honest, I really mean VSG reviewing the P12/14 and posting the results on his website along with A12X25 metrics. Oh well. I guess we gotta wait for Gamers Nexus to start posting fan reviews.


----------



## pshych0

airisom2 said:


> I guess we gotta wait for Gamers Nexus to start posting fan reviews.


Tech Jesus will save us 

but probably not


----------



## airisom2

Oh, he already has the setup to test them. Pretty much like VSG's on his TPU testing methodology, but it's been over a year since he's done anything with it or at least given an update. He'll get around to it eventually I guess.


----------



## doyll

The CaseKing testing seems okay, but I don't speak German and with little text to use web text translator on means I don't know exactly how testing was done. They say case and radiator, but list 3 cases so I don't know which one is case fans were tested in or how they were tested. How did they get their m3/h readings? 

Fans tend to blow air out in a cone shaped pattern at different speeds in different areas of cone. Also, not all have same cone pattern of flow. 

Most common airfow meters measure airflow are either hot-wire or cup/impeller sensor. Hot-wire is a fine wire in about 5mm round hole in end of a stick and friction of airflow heats wire, then the temp of wire is converted to m3/h. 4cm round Cup/impeller type flow meter is inserted into airflow and it's spinning rpm is converted to m3/h. Move senor around in airflow and readings change, often dramatically. 

Testing on a radiator the finned core tends to straighten airflow so airflow can be measured so reading are more consistant over area of fan, but case grill and filter are usually in front of fan. But just sticking a flow meter in back of fan doesn't give an accurate reading of airflow. 

But if we try to measure airflow out of a fan with filter and grill in front of it the airflow first needs to be cotained into a tube, then flow through an airflow straightener/equalizer so when sensor is put in it's airflow and moved around the readings are close to being the same.




airisom2 said:


> Oh, he already has the setup to test them. Pretty much like VSG's on his TPU testing methodology, but it's been over a year since he's done anything with it or at least given an update. He'll get around to it eventually I guess.


That airflow test tube is 1m of clear acrylic 6" OD, 5.75" ID. That is 152.4mm OD, 146.05mm ID, so while it might be fine for 120mm fans, I don't think that is enough oversize for 140mm fans. Even 120mm fans into 145.4mm with wire mesh 'airflow straightener' inside is likely restricting airflow a litte, and definitely will with 140mm fan on into 145.4mm tube. Definitely not big enough to compare 120mm and 140mm fans accurately. I did start to make one out of a 1.5m 200mm plastic pipe duct (210mm OD /202mm ID) but never got it done. 
​


----------



## ciarlatano

airisom2 said:


> Surprising after almost 2 years there still isn't a review of these fans backed by a solid testing methodology.


They've got a good thing going, why risk ruining it?


----------



## airisom2

Haha see what you did there. 

Well...they do look a lot like those cm masterfan air pressure fans, and those are pretty average performers so it kinda begs the question if they're as good imperically as people qualitatively say they are. I mean for 5 bucks you can't complain too much, but I just wanna see some good measurements on these fans compared to the other ones (a1225, sw3, etc.) to see where they actually sit.


----------



## ciarlatano

airisom2 said:


> Haha see what you did there.
> 
> Well...they do look a lot like those cm masterfan air pressure fans, and those are pretty average performers so it kinda begs the question if they're as good imperically as people qualitatively say they are. I mean for 5 bucks you can't complain too much, but I just wanna see some good measurements on these fans compared to the other ones (a1225, sw3, etc.) to see where they actually sit.


I've been curious about it since day one. I have a pair of the P14 and still couldn't tell you. They didn't work out in the application I tried them in, but I'm not going to form an opinion based on one somewhat odd application. And while I'm curious.....I'm not curious enough to dig out the old testing gear to see where they stack up. The fact that I didn't care for (subjective) the sound signature makes me even less inclined to put any effort into testing them.

BTW - I've never had the MasterFans, but I have had the Silencio that predated them. The Silencio has a really nice sound signature but wasn't great on the performance end. Also, The 120mm MF is a 7 blade design, while the P12 is five blade.


----------



## doyll

I took the liverty of copying CaseKing graphs from video and putting them in order of fan speed so we could see how each fan does in their testing. But I don't think sticking a airflow sensor inside a case is going to give even remotely accurate airflow readings. Maybe a German speaking member could check their videos and let us know how these airflow readings were taken. But I'm betting it wasn't done to even be remotely accurate fan testing.


----------



## poah

airisom2 said:


> Haha see what you did there.
> 
> Well...they do look a lot like those cm masterfan air pressure fans, and those are pretty average performers so it kinda begs the question if they're as good imperically as people qualitatively say they are. I mean for 5 bucks you can't complain too much, but I just wanna see some good measurements on these fans compared to the other ones (a1225, sw3, etc.) to see where they actually sit.


why not just buy a couple and see for yourself. Are they as good as the A12-25 at full speed although it spins 200rpm more - depends on application, air flow numbers and pressure don't really tell the whole story? 

What application are you want to use them in, what are they replacing and why do you want to replace them. These fans are cheap, quiet and powerful. 

They are not like the coolermaster fan, the blade profile is quite different


----------



## airisom2

https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/case-fan/masterfan-pro-120-ap/

https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/p12.html

Pretty similar, though the p12 got some more curves on her.

In the next couple months I'll be moving up to the Enthoo Pro 2, and I'll need some fans for it.


----------



## ciarlatano

airisom2 said:


> https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/case-fan/masterfan-pro-120-ap/
> 
> https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/p12.html
> 
> Pretty similar, though the p12 got some more curves on her.
> 
> In the next couple months I'll be moving up to the Enthoo Pro 2, and I'll need some fans for it.


When you had mentioned the CM, I thought you were referring to the SF120M - https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/case-fan/masterfan-sf120m/

Brain lock on my part, I totally forgot about the existence of the Pro 120 AP.


----------



## poah

airisom2 said:


> https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/case-fan/masterfan-pro-120-ap/
> 
> https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/p12.html
> 
> Pretty similar, though the p12 got some more curves on her.
> 
> In the next couple months I'll be moving up to the Enthoo Pro 2, and I'll need some fans for it.


only in the fact their blades are curvy. 

For the same prices as one AF12-25 you can buy 5 P12s basically


----------



## doyll

airisom2 said:


> https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/case-fan/masterfan-pro-120-ap/
> 
> https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/p12.html
> 
> Pretty similar, though the p12 got some more curves on her.
> 
> In the next couple months I'll be moving up to the Enthoo Pro 2, and I'll need some fans for it.


You know ooking at fan pictures doesn't really give us any information about actual blade airflow design .. like pitch, curvature, blade to housing clearance, etc. all effect performance dramatically. In pictures they can look the same, but in application one can be very good and other can be horrible.


----------



## airisom2

Yeah, I know, but you can extrapolate more than you let on by looking at pictures. 

The P12 has a square frame, a wider fan tip, closer tip clearance, and more of a scoop design on the blades as well. The square frame prevents air leakage and improves rigidity, closer tip clearance improves airflow and static pressure, wider fan blade will push more air, and fan blade scoop will catch more air than a flatter one. Each one by itself won't give you a dramatic difference in performance, but all of them together should get you something that's at least moderately better.

Here's what speech to text gave me for the testing methodology for that caseking 120mm video:



> Of course, we have to look at the results and first look at how we tested, we have built a fan test for this. This box can be closed and is currently open so that we can get an insight into how it works.
> 
> Two chambers on the left and right of the air for two hours, here we have a Corsair 120mm fan, which is also available in the test. It is then in the left chamber and here and here we have just mounted a plate with the radiator.
> 
> I have here again in the 140mm version, so we can then simulate that we are testing radiators or how fans are on radiators or we just have a plate that just has it, then we test how it behaves Fan if it is installed as a case fan.
> 
> then the air rather the fan pushes air through the radiator into the right chamber and in the right chamber there are these additional plates, these are just two plates with slots in the inside, which cause turbulence in the right chamber because here on the right side in the right chamber are an anemometer and
> 
> open to the return so we can measure the air flow so the air volume that the fan moves through the chambers and it is very easy the more air volume we have the higher the cooling capacity breather more air over a heat sink or direct radiator through it so the cooler easily rises and so we measure when more air is pushed through the chambers to the right towards the anemometer then we have a greater cooling capacity
> 
> In the left chamber in the back corner there is also a small microphone and we can use it to measure the volume of the fan.


Take from that what you can lol. I mean, it looks alright until you get to those plastic plates and the distance from the exhaust side of the fan to the anemometer. I also didn't see any dust filters or mesh screens to emulate case intake, and there isn't much we can do with free air measurements considering the fan will almost certainly face some sort of restriction in real-world use. And those plastic plates don't seem like a good idea because it's shaping the exhaust characteristics of the fan. That said, I don't even know which orientation he puts them in.


----------



## pshych0

I've installed 3 P14 in the front of my Meshify S2. After some basic testing, they seem ok, i have no complaints, they have good airflow through the grill and filter of the case.

At full speed, the sound of a P14 installed in the front of case is similar to the noise of a NH-A15 HS (1500rpm) from the NH-D15, different pitch though but nothing annoying. No vibrations.

Temps are good during cpu & gpu burn test at the same time, but i don't really have time to swap fans around and do proper testing. I'm quite satisfied with them, especially for the price.


----------



## doyll

I didn't watch any of video. Only looked at bar-graph charts.  

So basically only data that gives us anything useful is flow through radiator .. I don't think that's as restrictive as case grill and filter. Noise level at full speed seems extreme, but I don't know the distance meter is from source. Typical specs are measured 1 meter from source. 

Maybe I'll get some ambition and build a decent test station with intake box for filter and grill similar to case front intake. I have decent sound and airflow meters, but haven't found a mm H2O gauge I can afford.


----------



## pshych0

btw, are sw3 high speed still "the best" 140s? I might get one just to compare with it the P14.


----------



## gasolin

How low can i safely go on the P12 3pin dc version ?

Atm the one i have runs just under 400 rpm


----------



## doyll

gasolin said:


> How low can i safely go on the P12 3pin dc version ?
> 
> Atm the one i have runs just under 400 rpm


As long as fan spins you are fine.


----------



## BroadPwns

Like doyll said. If it spins - it works safely.


----------



## Shenhua

I'm seriously considering swapping the 2x120 sw3 i have on my GPU for some p12.

After testing them (the sw3) on the gelid cooler and seeing some videos on the internet, and seeing the overall good opinions of the p12 everywhere, I'm really interested.
Pretty much everyone i recommended them to, are happy with them, and even ppl that used good premium fans are happy with them.

They seem to do well pretty much everywhere, and the noise that F series used to make it's toned down by a lot.

Enviado desde mi RMX1971 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## crpcookie

pshych0 said:


> btw, are sw3 high speed still "the best" 140s? I might get one just to compare with it the P14.


I have 3 of them and they all have this annoying motor noise whine at low RPM. I can't wait to replace them all this year.


----------



## doyll

crpcookie said:


> I have 3 of them and they all have this annoying motor noise whine at low RPM. I can't wait to replace them all this year.


I suspect you have something else rather than be quiet! Silent Wing 3 fan causing your whine.


----------



## pshych0

I did a bit of testing because some of the numbers in random reviews were bothering me.

I removed a Noctua NF-A15 black from the NH-D15 and put it in the front of the case as intake (Meshify S2). At full speed (~1450rpm) it's significantly louder than a P14 at ~1650rpm. With a basic decibel meter phone app the NF-A15 was around 45dB and the P14 was around 41dB, with the phone place at ~20cm in front of the case. But regardless of the dB number, the difference is audible and bigger than i expected.

The noise profile of the NF-A15 changes quite radically (i'm guessing other fans as well, due to airflow obstructions) when mounted on the CPU cooler and like this it's slightly quieter than a P14 as a case fan.

I know this is not proper testing, it was just a comparison for my curiosity, thought i'd share it.


----------



## Shenhua

pshych0 said:


> I did a bit of testing because some of the numbers in random reviews were bothering me.
> 
> 
> 
> I removed a Noctua NF-A15 black from the NH-D15 and put it in the front of the case as intake (Meshify S2). At full speed (~1450rpm) it's significantly louder than a P14 at ~1650rpm. With a basic decibel meter phone app the NF-A15 was around 45dB and the P14 was around 41dB, with the phone place at ~20cm in front of the case. But regardless of the dB number, the difference is audible and bigger than i expected.
> 
> 
> 
> The noise profile of the NF-A15 changes quite radically (i'm guessing other fans as well, due to airflow obstructions) when mounted on the CPU cooler and like this it's slightly quieter than a P14 as a case fan.
> 
> 
> 
> I know this is not proper testing, it was just a comparison for my curiosity, thought i'd share it.


It's not proper testing but it's more useful feedback than most "proper testing".

I had the same experience, and the same happens with nf a14 against material, and many other fans. While it's normal and expected for most fans to change their sound signature against material, some of them stay more pleasant than others.

Nf a14/a15 are some of the annoying ones.
P12/p14, a12x25 are some of the ones that keep a nice sound signature.


----------



## ciarlatano

Shenhua said:


> It's not proper testing but it's more useful feedback than most "proper testing".
> 
> I had the same experience, and the same happens with nf a14 against material, and many other fans. While it's normal and expected for most fans to change their sound signature against material, some of them stay more pleasant than others.
> 
> Nf a14/a15 are some of the annoying ones.
> P12/p14, a12x25 are some of the ones that keep a nice sound signature.


And then you have eLoops.....which turn into howling banshees when they have anything near their intake.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> And then you have eLoops.....which turn into howling banshees when they have anything near their intake.


Seems I remember people complaining about some other fan being prone to similar issue, but can't remember which ones.


----------



## D-EJ915

The 140 nb-eloops don't seem to exhibit the same howling behaviour as the 120mm ones interestingly enough.


----------



## ciarlatano

D-EJ915 said:


> The 140 nb-eloops don't seem to exhibit the same howling behaviour as the 120mm ones interestingly enough.


Yeah, the 140s only do it in very specific circumstances, and nowhere near as badly as the 120mm.


----------



## JackCY

doyll said:


> Seems I remember people complaining about some other fan being prone to similar issue, but can't remember which ones.


You mean all fans hate being in a pull config. At least that's my experience as the blades cut air near other obstacles (heatsink fins) and this produces more noise than when fan is more far away from such obstruction.


----------



## doyll

JackCY said:


> You mean all fans hate being in a pull config. At least that's my experience as the blades cut air near other obstacles (heatsink fins) and this produces more noise than when fan is more far away from such obstruction.


With most fans I think the problem you discribe is because impeller is closer to housing face on intake side than exhaust side. Motor mounting fan is almost always on exhaust side of fan adding to impeller clearance.


----------



## Alastair

ciarlatano said:


> Yeah, the 140s only do it in very specific circumstances, and nowhere near as badly as the 120mm.


I really want to get Eloops because I love the way they look. But no point if they dont perform as good. The howling issue wont bother me as I use a spacer so to speak between my rads and fans so yeah. Are the Eloops still good fans by todays standards?


----------



## ciarlatano

Alastair said:


> I really want to get Eloops because I love the way they look. But no point if they dont perform as good. The howling issue wont bother me as I use a spacer so to speak between my rads and fans so yeah. Are the Eloops still good fans by todays standards?


The eLoops are very good fans in many applications - push on a rad being one of those. They also have a really smooth sound signature when there is no obstruction on their intake side. Take a look at Thermalbench reviews of them, there is some great data - http://thermalbench.com/2016/02/12/blacknoise-nb-eloop-b14-ps-and-b14-3-140mm-fans/3/
http://thermalbench.com/2015/04/10/blacknoise-nb-eloop-b12-1-120mm-fan/3/


----------



## Alastair

ciarlatano said:


> The eLoops are very good fans in many applications - push on a rad being one of those. They also have a really smooth sound signature when there is no obstruction on their intake side. Take a look at Thermalbench reviews of them, there is some great data - http://thermalbench.com/2016/02/12/blacknoise-nb-eloop-b14-ps-and-b14-3-140mm-fans/3/
> http://thermalbench.com/2015/04/10/blacknoise-nb-eloop-b12-1-120mm-fan/3/


Well they will be applied to my 360mm rad. So yeah they will be used in a rad application. But I just saw De8uer's stats and was wondering where Eloops stack up against today's fans since Eloops are from quite a few years ago. And is thermalbench still doing tests? Because I loved their data.


----------



## ciarlatano

Alastair said:


> Well they will be applied to my 360mm rad. So yeah they will be used in a rad application. But I just saw De8uer's stats and was wondering where Eloops stack up against today's fans since Eloops are from quite a few years ago. And is thermalbench still doing tests? Because I loved their data.


VSG now reviews at TechPowerUp. The data layout isn't as good as it was at Thermalbench, but it's still solid.


----------



## Andrew LB

ciarlatano said:


> VSG now reviews at TechPowerUp. The data layout isn't as good as it was at Thermalbench, but it's still solid.



He does? I was under the impression that VSG was living overseas for whatever reason (could be University, some girl, or avoiding extradition... who knows), as he mentioned a few weeks ago in this post.


Regardless, I always found his reviews to be some of the very best on the net. Lots of data and his results never came off as predetermined like you can get with some reviewers. Almost all of my cooling purchase during the past 5 years were based on his reviews. 





That said, i did some searching for a review of these Arctic P14 fans and found this. Never heard of the guy, sponsored by Amazon, but has quite a bit of data on each fan in both free air and used on a radiator.


----------



## doyll

Andrew LB said:


> He does? I was under the impression that VSG was living overseas for whatever reason (could be University, some girl, or avoiding extradition... who knows), as he mentioned a few weeks ago in this post.
> 
> Regardless, I always found his reviews to be some of the very best on the net. Lots of data and his results never came off as predetermined like you can get with some reviewers. Almost all of my cooling purchase during the past 5 years were based on his reviews.
> 
> That said, i did some searching for a review of these Arctic P14 fans and found this. Never heard of the guy, sponsored by Amazon, but has quite a bit of data on each fan in both free air and used on a radiator.
> 
> https://youtu.be/rv1S9RhABa8



What VSG posted:_"I am a couple of oceans away from my stuff, which is packed up in another continent entirely, and it will be a while before I can get everything set up again at this rate of countries under lockdown" _​All we know for sure is he is overseas. No more, no less. 



As for youtube video. Guys testing tells us almost nothing, has no free air or radiator testing, only testing with first one fan, then 2 fans (1x intake & 1x exhaust) mounted in _"Benchmarking rig"_:


_CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X @4.2GHz
_
_Motherboard: Asus X470 Crosshair VII Hero WiFi 
_
_GPU: EVGA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Black_
_Case: be quiet! Pure Base 500DX_
_Cooler: Scythe Fuma 2_
_RAM: Patriot Viper RGB DDR4-3600_
_M.2 Drive: Samsung 970 Evo 500GB_
be quiet! Pure Base 500DX has venting and fan mouts forFront = 3x 120mm / 2x 140mm
Top = 2x 120mm / 2x 140mm
Rear = 1x 120mm / 1x 140mm​Sound readings were taken 4" from front of case, same as audio recordings. Standard is 1 yard / meter. A 40dB reading at 4" is about 21dB at 1 yard. A quiet bedroom at night has an ambient sound level of about 30dB

Quick scan seems he used 1x fan in first series of testing and 2x fans (1x intake & 1x exhaust) in second series. I didn't see anything about free air or raditor testng. Considering how many vents are in Pure Base 500DX, the placement of a single front intake in first series of tests and front intake and rear exhasut for 2nd series of tests leaves way too much open area and venting to be doing decent testing for many reasons. Biggest is intake fan is pusing a cone of air into case. Adding a rear exhaust helps case airflow in this setup. But it's hardly a decent test of fans. 

Now if he had blocked off all openings in front fan mounting panel so air single intake / 2 intake fans was / were pushing into case had to flow through case to get out, not leak around fans and go in circles, we would have a much better idea of fan performance.


----------



## TK421

Andrew LB said:


> He does? I was under the impression that VSG was living overseas for whatever reason (could be University, some girl, or avoiding extradition... who knows), as he mentioned a few weeks ago in this post.
> 
> 
> Regardless, I always found his reviews to be some of the very best on the net. Lots of data and his results never came off as predetermined like you can get with some reviewers. Almost all of my cooling purchase during the past 5 years were based on his reviews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said, i did some searching for a review of these Arctic P14 fans and found this. Never heard of the guy, sponsored by Amazon, but has quite a bit of data on each fan in both free air and used on a radiator.
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/rv1S9RhABa8



all these fans and he didn't test GTs


----------



## BroadPwns

TK421 said:


> all these fans and he didn't test GTs


You mean that one? http://thermalbench.com/2017/05/25/darkside-gentle-typhoon-1150-rpm-120-mm-fan/


----------



## doyll

TK421 said:


> all these fans and he didn't test GTs


 You really do need to stop posting things you don't know anything about as if they are real. People will start thinking you are trolling, trying to cause probems.

VSG did tst GTs, as BroadPwns posted.


----------



## BroadPwns

BroadPaws is ironically accurate to the size of my hands, thank you xD


----------



## doyll

BroadPwns said:


> BroadPaws is ironically accurate to the size of my hands, thank you xD


 You caught it before I did. 
Was fixing it when you posted.


----------



## ciarlatano

TK421 said:


> all these fans and he didn't test GTs


If you are referring to the (awful) YT video in your quote, and I assume you are, why would he test GTs that are only available in 120mm in a test of 140mm fans?


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> If you are referring to the (awful) YT video in your quote, and I assume you are, why would he test GTs that are only available in 120mm in a test of 140mm fans?


 I thought he was referring to VSG not testing GTs. 

Maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## TK421

oops


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> I thought he was referring to VSG not testing GTs.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong.


No clue....the post was totally vague. But, we have answered both seemingly conceivable questions.


----------



## Dollar

Another review of the Arctic P12 against the gentle typhoon and a12x25. Considering you can get a five pack of the Actic P12 for the price of a single Noctua fan the value here is insane.


----------



## Melcar

That motor hum would drive me insane. Not as bad as the Phanteks MP fans however. But yeah, for the price you can get these fans they are a winner. Too bad I can't seem to get them anywhere at the moment.


----------



## doyll

Melcar said:


> That motor hum would drive me insane. Not as bad as the Phanteks MP fans however. But yeah, for the price you can get these fans they are a winner. Too bad I can't seem to get them anywhere at the moment.


You are one of only a very few people who don't like the sound of Phanteks MPs. Not doubting you but I've used MPs and stock Phanteks case fans in many builds and nerver had a problem, and neither did their owners. Wish I could reproduce conditions you got the hum under so I could hear it too.


----------



## BroadPwns

My P14 only hums at the edge of blades, motor is completely silent.


----------



## doyll

BroadPwns said:


> My P14 only hums at the edge of blades, motor is completely silent.


As in blade vibration?


----------



## BroadPwns

I don't know how vibrating blades are supposed to sound like but the hum sounds as something between "vvvvvv" and "ffffff". It's completely silent from the centre of the motor until like half a centimeter away from the blades edge.

Reasearched by changing ear location


----------



## airisom2

Well, I have 10 P12s I'll be putting in my Enthoo Pro 2 when it comes in. The resonating noise in that video might be fixed by just slapping on an anti-vibration pad. I have a couple laying around here somewhere to use if they make that noise.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> You are one of only a very few people who don't like the sound of Phanteks MPs. Not doubting you but I've used MPs and stock Phanteks case fans in many builds and nerver had a problem, and neither did their owners. Wish I could reproduce conditions you got the hum under so I could hear it too.


The MPs can get cranky when in a horizontal position and may hum. The F140MP seems to be much more susceptible than the F120MP. It's also, again, very subjective as people hear different frequencies differently.


----------



## Melcar

doyll said:


> You are one of only a very few people who don't like the sound of Phanteks MPs. Not doubting you but I've used MPs and stock Phanteks case fans in many builds and nerver had a problem, and neither did their owners. Wish I could reproduce conditions you got the hum under so I could hear it too.



I have several MPs, both 120mm and 140mm. The 120mm are not that bad but they do seems to have a slight hum at above 80% PWM. The 140mm ones also have a slight (and more annoying) hum at anything above 70% PWM. Interestingly enough these hum noises are only really apparent when the fans are in vertical positions as case intakes. None of this is a problem for me personally since most of the times the fans are running 500-1100rpm, but the hum is noticeable even with my TY-143s at full blast. I'm a bit deaf, but certain noises are specially annoying to me, so it may be that my brain is picking up on that hum and making a bigger deal of it than it should be.


----------



## Shenhua

The anti vibrations pad thing it's been commented in the replies of that review more than once.

Idk if it's because of that, or the motor, but it seems to be a problem, only around 1000rpm.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## poah

Shenhua said:


> The anti vibrations pad thing it's been commented in the replies of that review more than once.
> 
> Idk if it's because of that, or the motor, but it seems to be a problem, only around 1000rpm.


TBF that reviewer noticed something on his set up. It is not a constant theme with the fans.


----------



## Shenhua

poah said:


> TBF that reviewer noticed something on his set up. It is not a constant theme with the fans.


Good to know.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## BroadPwns

Shenhua said:


> The anti vibrations pad thing it's been commented in the replies of that review more than once.
> 
> Idk if it's because of that, or the motor, but it seems to be a problem, only around 1000rpm.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


Depends on a case, my P14 seems to slightly resonate at 700 RPM and 1300ish RPM while P12s do not.


----------



## Fullereneshift

Here is a video I found that demonstrates the sound profiles of the Noctua A12x25, Nidec Servo Gentle Typhoon, and Arctic P12 mounted on a Thermalright Ultra 120 eXtreme. In the frame is a sound meter placed 25cm away from the intake (Note: this is separate from the camera's microphone and is just for reference). 1250, 1600, and 2000 RPM are shown for each respectively, though the Arctic P12 is excluded from the 2000 RPM recording as it does not spin fast enough.






dBA values from the video @ 25cm, 0.1dBA margin of error because the sound meter was bouncing a lot:
Ambient noise floor - 31.3dBA

1250 RPM
A12x25 - 31.5 dBA
Gentle Typhoon - 33.6 dBA
Arctic P12 - 33.1 dBA


1600 RPM
A12x25 - 32.7 dBA
Gentle Typhoon - 34.1 dBA
Arctic P12 - 34.4 dBA


2000 RPM
A12x25 - 35.3 dBA
Gentle Typhoon - 36.3 dBA

-A12x25 is consistently at least 1dBA quieter than the other two fans
-P12 is quieter at 1250 RPM compared to Gentle Typhoon, most likely due to ball bearing hiss on the GT
-GT overtakes the P12 at 1600 RPM, airflow noise surpasses bearing noise here
-GT still exhibits the typical ball bearing hiss at all speeds shown, while P12 and A12x25 have none

I'm still waiting for the P12/P14 value packs to restock here in Canada, they've been OOS from 1st party seller for 2 months now unfortunately.


----------



## JackCY

Melcar said:


> That motor hum would drive me insane. Not as bad as the Phanteks MP fans however. But yeah, for the price you can get these fans they are a winner. Too bad I can't seem to get them anywhere at the moment.





Dollar said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwftVMGPOiI
> Another review of the Arctic P12 against the gentle typhoon and a12x25. Considering you can get a five pack of the Actic P12 for the price of a single Noctua fan the value here is insane.


In the video the A12x25 has a high pitched noise which usually comes from bearings. P12 PWM, no such noise there nor did I notice it on my P12 PWMs.

All moving devices have a certain resonant frequency so no wonder most fans have a certain speed where air moving around the frame or around/through your heatsink, radiator, etc. creates more noise than usual.

I don't consider 40 dbA as very useful, that's almost max speed for the P12 PWM at 1700 RPM, inside a case I don't mind it up to that point or while in game but as a case intake that is easier to hear, no I think hell nah to 40dbA.

35 dbA, ok, 1250 RPM, no problem, I don't even hear this almost out of my case. And surprise surprise the P12 PWM does just as well as at higher speed.

At least I hope in the video he actually got P12 PWM not a P12 as those are older motor.

The P12 fan design also comes in 10 different color options and none are ugly beige poo.

On top of that just get the P14 PWM instead, don't bother with 120 mm fans unless you have to. That's something Noctua still doesn't get much either and as far as I'm aware they have no pressure oriented fan design in 140 mm much well not beside the "stolen, copied" design this time not from Nidec but from who ever made the infamous 140 mm design that everyone is using: Noctua, Thermalright, SilentiumPC, ...

As far as the P12/14 PWM motor goes, in my own experience the fans vibrate way less than the older Fractal, Gelid, fans. The operation is quite smooth and I've hard screwed all the fans now as dealing with the rubber fan mounts is a royal pain.

The only thing I noticed was starting the P14 PWMs from stop to a low speed, it made a bit more noise, so I would not use them in a start stop situation at low speeds.

With P12 PWMs on GPU that runs in passive mode all the time and keeps the fans starting and stopping when ever it can... haven't noticed a problem but the GPU fan controller doesn't really run the fans (luckily) slow below 1200 RPM much.

Where as my 140 mm fans rarely hit 1000 RPM, that's only when stressing something or doing some intensive CPU calculation, otherwise they run along on their 600-800 RPM range for the P14 PWMs.

The Nidec is unobtainable to many and the sound profile is, well, bad.

There is no doubt Noctua can make some nice fans after many years of waiting and waiting and then comes out one model in 1 size and that's all. Costs arm and leg and looks to be nothing more than a copy of hard to obtain fan from different brand that's been around for ages. Yes it's good but the price isn't competitive at all. All these fans are made cheaply in Asia at similar cost.

And if I want Noctua A14x25? Where is that? Wait another 10 years for it? Or get the same old design other brands have for cheap but Noctua only sells as IPPC at higher max speeds above 1500 RPM. Not worth it to me, not worth it.

Happy camper with the P14 PWM PSTs and P12 PWMs, no need for packs to get a good deal, search around, the packs in my area weren't even the cheapest to get and normally PST cost more well not always.

And the Arctic P design also comes in ball bearing variant. With new motor in 3 pin variant with temperature control.
Pretty much all the options, variants, sizes... hell they made it even in 80 mm. I see 19 models total + all the possible color options. What did Noctua launch? 1 fan, in 1 size, in 1 color, 1 fan that's it lol. The difference is pretty massive. Noctua goes after the beige fans, Arctic makes fan for the masses.



I have the case right now still on table, elbow striking distance, 12 cm from keyboard. The noise doesn't bother me, I hear more birds, wind noise and far away traffic from outside than the computer.


Are they the best performing, highest performance fans? Nope. Get some industrial screamers that chop fingers off.
Are they the best value? Very likely.


----------



## doyll

Fullereneshift said:


> Here is a video I found that demonstrates the sound profiles of the Noctua A12x25, Nidec Servo Gentle Typhoon, and Arctic P12 mounted on a Thermalright Ultra 120 eXtreme. In the frame is a sound meter placed 25cm away from the intake (Note: this is separate from the camera's microphone and is just for reference). 1250, 1600, and 2000 RPM are shown for each respectively, though the Arctic P12 is excluded from the 2000 RPM recording as it does not spin fast enough.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLVdrpIcSGU
> 
> dBA values from the video @ 25cm, 0.1dBA margin of error because the sound meter was bouncing a lot:
> Ambient noise floor - 31.3dBA
> 
> 1250 RPM
> A12x25 - 31.5 dBA
> Gentle Typhoon - 33.6 dBA
> Arctic P12 - 33.1 dBA
> 
> 1600 RPM
> A12x25 - 32.7 dBA
> Gentle Typhoon - 34.1 dBA
> Arctic P12 - 34.4 dBA
> 
> 2000 RPM
> A12x25 - 35.3 dBA
> Gentle Typhoon - 36.3 dBA
> 
> -A12x25 is consistently at least 1dBA quieter than the other two fans
> -P12 is quieter at 1250 RPM compared to Gentle Typhoon, most likely due to ball bearing hiss on the GT
> -GT overtakes the P12 at 1600 RPM, airflow noise surpasses bearing noise here
> -GT still exhibits the typical ball bearing hiss at all speeds shown, while P12 and A12x25 have none
> 
> I'm still waiting for the P12/P14 value packs to restock here in Canada, they've been OOS from 1st party seller for 2 months now unfortunately.


 To be fair SPL/DBa needs to be measured at a meter distance, not 0.25 meter .. or at least give dBA adjusted to standard 1 meter distance. Problem is without a sound chamber ambient noise level is 30-321dBA, so we measure at shorter distance to get SPL above 31

It takes a sound reading of 43dBA @ 0.25m to be same loudness as a very quiet room. 43dBA @ 0.25m = 30.96dBA @ 1m, and a queit room is 30-31dBA .. so just audible if even audible. Basically they all ran at noise levels quieter than we would be able to hear inside of case setting along side of desk.

We also have to keep in mind these sound recordings are not being done with high quality microphones with high quality recording equipment, and usually not played back on high quality sound systems. So what we hear from our computer speakers is probably not the same as if we had our ear where the microphone is.


----------



## JackCY

It's nice to have a histogram of the recording, the volume/loudness level of each frequency. It's not rare for fans, GPUs, etc. to have a specific frequency spike which is annoying but won't be picked up on a simple single number dBA. You can have a quiet fan but what good is it if it has annoyingly audible ball bearing at high frequency. Or a quiet GPU/PSU that whines.

These sort of measurements are often only comparable within the one test, not across multiple sources, reviewers, tests.


----------



## airisom2

8 of 10 are resonating. The other two are on my graphics card and have rubber gaskets. Time to get some more I guess.


----------



## doyll

airisom2 said:


> 8 of 10 are resonating. The other two are on my graphics card and have rubber gaskets. Time to get some more I guess.


8 of 10 what are resonating? I'm assuming Arctic P, and guessing 140mm, but that's just a guess


----------



## airisom2

Oh they're P12s. I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but it has been buried already I guess.


----------



## doyll

airisom2 said:


> Oh they're P12s. I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but it has been buried already I guess.


No problem. I often forget what has been said in a thread. 

Interested in hearing how it works out. Haven't heard a many complaints like this resonating you have. If you hold your hand / finger against case near fans does it stip the resonance?


----------



## airisom2

doyll said:


> No problem. I often forget what has been said in a thread.
> 
> Interested in hearing how it works out. Haven't heard a many complaints like this resonating you have. If you hold your hand / finger against case near fans does it stip the resonance?


Well, I pulled one out and held it in my hand while on 12v, and it emitted the same noise. Having this many in a case just makes things worse, haha. It can be heard from 1krpm all the way up, so I just have them at 800-ish right now with a couple I don't need turned off. This Enthoo Pro 2 is an amazing case for airflow, the best I've ever seen.


----------



## doyll

airisom2 said:


> Well, I pulled one out and held it in my hand while on 12v, and it emitted the same noise. Having this many in a case just makes things worse, haha. It can be heard from 1krpm all the way up, so I just have them at 800-ish right now with a couple I don't need turned off. This Enthoo Pro 2 is an amazing case for airflow, the best I've ever seen.


So definitely from fan, be it impeller harmonic or motor noise.

Indeed, Enthoo Pro 2 is good case.


----------



## Larkonian

Shenhua said:


> The anti vibrations pad thing it's been commented in the replies of that review more than once.
> 
> Idk if it's because of that, or the motor, but it seems to be a problem, only around 1000rpm.


My P12 PWM PSTs also have a VERY annoying whine at about 900-1100 RPM. Wish I had heard about this before buying 6 of them. It doesn't matter how I secure them, it seems to be the motor.


----------



## ciarlatano

airisom2 said:


> Well, I pulled one out and held it in my hand while on 12v, and it emitted the same noise. Having this many in a case just makes things worse, haha. It can be heard from 1krpm all the way up, so I just have them at 800-ish right now with a couple I don't need turned off. This Enthoo Pro 2 is an amazing case for airflow, the best I've ever seen.


I almost jumped on the Pro 2 when I saw it. It looks like an amazing case. Is the build quality as good as the first?
And you are mistaken about noise coming from the P12. It has the capability of moving hurricane force winds in complete silence for $5. I read it on the innerwebz (right here in this thread....over and over and over and....) so it must be true. Any sound you here is purely your imagination, and you should seek professional help for such delusions. 

That said, I didn't notice any resonance from the P14 when I had them installed. I haven't tried the P12, though.



Larkonian said:


> My P12 PWM PSTs also have a VERY annoying whine at about 900-1100 RPM. Wish I had heard about this before buying 6 of them. It doesn't matter how I secure them, it seems to be the motor.


It can't be the fans, see above.


----------



## poah

Larkonian said:


> My P12 PWM PSTs also have a VERY annoying whine at about 900-1100 RPM. Wish I had heard about this before buying 6 of them. It doesn't matter how I secure them, it seems to be the motor.


Thats the rpm 8 of mine run at constantly - I don't hear anything.


----------



## doyll

airisom2 said:


> Well, I pulled one out and held it in my hand while on 12v, and it emitted the same noise. Having this many in a case just makes things worse, haha. It can be heard from 1krpm all the way up, so I just have them at 800-ish right now with a couple I don't need turned off. This Enthoo Pro 2 is an amazing case for airflow, the best I've ever seen.





Larkonian said:


> My P12 PWM PSTs also have a VERY annoying whine at about 900-1100 RPM. Wish I had heard about this before buying 6 of them. It doesn't matter how I secure them, it seems to be the motor.


Was this noise present when new or has it developed with time?


----------



## airisom2

ciarlatano said:


> I almost jumped on the Pro 2 when I saw it. It looks like an amazing case. Is the build quality as good as the first?
> And you are mistaken about noise coming from the P12. It has the capability of moving hurricane force winds in complete silence for $5. I read it on the innerwebz (right here in this thread....over and over and over and....) so it must be true. Any sound you here is purely your imagination, and you should seek professional help for such delusions.
> 
> That said, I didn't notice any resonance from the P14 when I had them installed. I haven't tried the P12, though.


A buddy of mine has an Enthoo Primo, not quite at Primo levels, but I'm happy with the quality. I got the solid panel version with no RGB, taped some floor underlayment to said panel, and just put fans everywhere. 4x 120mm intake front, 3x 120mm intake bottom, 1x 120mm exhaust rear, left the top open. 

Every component in there gets gobs of airflow without even trying. All of the filters are easily removable, and if I ever go under water (probably will when I upgrade 2021), this case has the capacity to give you diminishing returns levels of cooling while being able to feed three rads (2x360, 1x480) fresh air with that free-flowing front intake. For $130, it's a steal imo. 

Only downside is that cable management room in the back is surprisingly tight considering the dual chamber layout, but it's still easy to build in. At 77L, it's in full tower territory, but you can fit whatever you want and not have to worry about clearances and if your components are getting the airflow they need to perform optimally.




doyll said:


> Was this noise present when new or has it developed with time?


My fans are brand new. Oh, and the gaskets did nothing. Pretty sure this is bearing noise I'm hearing. Good news is I can just keep all the fans at 900rpm and not have to hear it, and with the amount of fans I have, I can actually maintain really good temps, but I'm gonna see if I can get these things swapped out with something else in the meantime. I can't tolerate the noise. 

It sucks because these fans actually blow straight and not obtuse, and they don't sound bad otherwise, but listening to a 900Hz resonance tone all the time will drive me f insane.


----------



## Larkonian

doyll said:


> Was this noise present when new or has it developed with time?


From new but seems to have bettered a little with time. Especially the one that is installed vertically. Maybe a lubrication issue?


----------



## doyll

airisom2 said:


> A
> My fans are brand new. Oh, and the gaskets did nothing. Pretty sure this is bearing noise I'm hearing. Good news is I can just keep all the fans at 900rpm and not have to hear it, and with the amount of fans I have, I can actually maintain really good temps, but I'm gonna see if I can get these things swapped out with something else in the meantime. I can't tolerate the noise.
> 
> It sucks because these fans actually blow straight and not obtuse, and they don't sound bad otherwise, but listening to a 900Hz resonance tone all the time will drive me f insane.


Thanks for the info. :thumb:



Larkonian said:


> From new but seems to have bettered a little with time. Especially the one that is installed vertically. Maybe a lubrication issue?


Thanks for the info. :thumb:


One of these days I need to get a few of these to try out and maybe do some testing.


----------



## doyll

While some love their Arctic P fans some are having problems. and some are going bad after less than 2 years.


Now we get people saying "Arctic P has a 10 year warranty". Well that 10 year warranty depreciated 10% per year based on original purchase price, which is without VAT. At 10% per year a fan that cost $6.00 (plus tax) and if it goes bad in 5 years at 10% per year warranty is $3.00. And if Arctic wants fan returned to verify defect with their main offices in Florence, SC USA or Germany it will cost more shipping than what is left of warranty value after deductions of original price to send it in.

Here are a few quotes out of Arctic warranty:


> If there are any defects in materials or workmanship in your Arctic product during the warranty period, Arctic will remedy these defects at its own expense by repairing or supplying new or refurbished parts. Arctic has the right to choose the means of remedying the defect. In individual cases, due to the constantly advancing technology, the repair or replacement of the product may result in disproportionate costs for Arctic. In this case, Arctic is entitled to refund the fair value of the product instead of repairing or replacing it. Arctic will calculate the fair value by taking into account the objective nature of the product. The fair value will be at least the amount of the purchase price, less 10% at the end of each year after delivery. For example, at the end of the third year after delivery, the fair value will be at least the amount of the purchase price, less 30%.





> Arctic can only grant claims under this warranty if you send the product along with the original receipt/original proof of purchase showing the date of purchase and the seller to the location specified by Customer Service (for example, to a repair center). The product must be properly packaged to avoid damage during shipping.
> 
> You are responsible for the cost of returning the device and Arctic will pay for the cost of sending the repaired or replaced device to you.


https://www.arctic.ac/en/warranty/

Hopefully the above will show people how this "10 year warranty" is really just another marketing ploy and not really a "10 year warranty", but a "Minus 10% per year warranty".


----------



## shotround

doyll said:


> While some love their Arctic P fans some are having problems. and some are going bad after less than 2 years.
> 
> Hopefully the above will show people how this "10 year warranty" is really just another marketing ploy and not really a "10 year warranty", but a "Minus 10% per year warranty".


any point starting a fan life span thread? ive got two ek vardar fans that died around two years. i repaired one with some lube. the other is just way out of balance. the noctuas i got around the same time are going strong. 

i was getting nowhere on the ek two year warranty. they wanted me to go through retailer. but retailer said to go through manufacturer. between this and their nickel plated fittings; im done with ek.


----------



## doyll

shotround said:


> any point starting a fan life span thread? ive got two ek vardar fans that died around two years. i repaired one with some lube. the other is just way out of balance. the noctuas i got around the same time are going strong.
> 
> i was getting nowhere on the ek two year warranty. they wanted me to go through retailer. but retailer said to go through manufacturer. between this and their nickel plated fittings; im done with ek.


Worth a try. Maybe opening post with list of fans by brand & model with post #/#s that fan was reported bad. Maybe give some instructions of what info to include, like brand & model number, how old, how warranty was/wasn't honored. Then you could edit opening post to log data and add post # with more info.


----------



## bigboy678

@doyll or anyone really

i was wondering if you could recommend a good alternative to the arctic p series fans around the same price in the US. i know doyll you mentioned quite a few pages back about a good deal on a 2 pack for some phanteks fans but sadly that is in the UK only i believe. the one thing i cant stand is weird bearing noise. i have quite a few gentle typhoon fans lying around because i simply couldnt stand the noise it would make at certain rpms.


----------



## doyll

bigboy678 said:


> @doyll or anyone really
> 
> i was wondering if you could recommend a good alternative to the arctic p series fans around the same price in the US. i know doyll you mentioned quite a few pages back about a good deal on a 2 pack for some phanteks fans but sadly that is in the UK only i believe. the one thing i cant stand is weird bearing noise. i have quite a few gentle typhoon fans lying around because i simply couldnt stand the noise it would make at certain rpms.


I don't know of any others that are not well above $10.00 a fan. 

Honestly you are not going to get a good quality fan for anything less, and it might be hard even at that price. Gentle Typhoon are quite good, so if you don't like them it's going to be hard to find any other regardless of price. I think one of the best is be quiet! Silent Wings 3, but they are definitely not cheap and even may have sounds you won't like.

@ciarlatano 
might know of some other good fans for not too much money.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> I don't know of any others that are not well above $10.00 a fan.
> 
> Honestly you are not going to get a good quality fan for anything less, and it might be hard even at that price. Gentle Typhoon are quite good, so if you don't like them it's going to be hard to find any other regardless of price. I think one of the best is be quiet! Silent Wings 3, but they are definitely not cheap and even may have sounds you won't like.
> 
> @ciarlatano
> might know of some other good fans for not too much money.


Unfortunately, I haven't tried any of the current lower priced fans other than the Arctic P. But.....there are always people around ::cough cough:: who have a stockpile of higher end fans new in the box that would sell them for less than the Ps.


----------



## JackCY

I have no issues so far. 4x P14 PWM, 2x P12 PWM, 1x F14. The P PWM don't really vibrate much unlike older fans I have, hard mounted them with screws, the F14 now too. The P12 PWM are on a start-stop 0 to max (1800 rpm) on a GPU.

Warranty very much depends on where you bought it, here it's all done by seller so only have to get it to seller and the warranty minimum is 2 years with any more depends on seller if they want to offer more because supplier/manufacturer does or not.

The not so greatly balanced stock FD Define R4 fans ran a while now and now one is running 24/7 at 8.5V in basically outside temperature environment, crap ton of dust and debris (I literally banged the old wall surface that's falling off which gets sucked by the fan a few times), it's running fine.
On the other hand the CPU cooler Thermalright TY-147A is a bit loose bearing wise, same run time. The cheapo Gelid Silent 14 are fine too. These all have 5+ years no problem, that's probably around 15k hours at 500-800 rpm.

The only similar price wise and performance wise... hard to find, maybe those SilentiumPC sometimes which have same shape as the TY-147A/Noctua/endless other knockoffs/copies of a copy.


----------



## poah

No issues at all running 14 fans on 3 different computers (p12 pwm pst )


----------



## Thoth420

I went with the P12 PWM PST because they have a white frame and white blades to match my case. I have already decided they will be the fans I use for my AIO(top mounted). My concern is for my front 3 intake airflow fans however. Artic sells the F12 but not white/white. The closest is white blade with black frame. This will be visible from the front of my TD500 so I was wondering if these fan blades come off easy. I would like to grab a few F12s for the front and paint the housing if at all possible. The fans that come with the chassis are aRGB and I am not doing any lighting in this system. I am not sure the quality of said pre supplied fans either. If they are quiet and move air as I expect they do then I guess I can just use those and not hook the lighting.


----------



## BroadPwns

P14 comes off very easily, P12s not an 9effing chance. Broke stiffening frame of two P12s and the blades did not move at all. Maybe it's possible if you manage to completely lock the frame do it won't bend while pulling blades.


----------



## ciarlatano

Thoth420 said:


> I went with the P12 PWM PST because they have a white frame and white blades to match my case. I have already decided they will be the fans I use for my AIO(top mounted). My concern is for my front 3 intake airflow fans however. Artic sells the F12 but not white/white. The closest is white blade with black frame. This will be visible from the front of my TD500 so I was wondering if these fan blades come off easy. I would like to grab a few F12s for the front and paint the housing if at all possible. The fans that come with the chassis are aRGB and I am not doing any lighting in this system. I am not sure the quality of said pre supplied fans either. If they are quiet and move air as I expect they do then I guess I can just use those and not hook the lighting.


Why are you not just using more P12 in white for the intakes? Thet are a _*much*_ better fan in all aspects than the F12 and come in the color you need. Can you not get more P12s? If you can't. there must be a better option than the F12, which is a really lousy fan.


----------



## doyll

Thoth420 said:


> I went with the P12 PWM PST because they have a white frame and white blades to match my case. I have already decided they will be the fans I use for my AIO(top mounted). My concern is for my front 3 intake airflow fans however. Artic sells the F12 but not white/white. The closest is white blade with black frame. This will be visible from the front of my TD500 so I was wondering if these fan blades come off easy. I would like to grab a few F12s for the front and paint the housing if at all possible. The fans that come with the chassis are aRGB and I am not doing any lighting in this system. I am not sure the quality of said pre supplied fans either. If they are quiet and move air as I expect they do then I guess I can just use those and not hook the lighting.


What ciarlatano said. :thumb:

P12 is much better suited as case intake because it's higher pressure rating means it can overcome resistance of grill and filter much better than F12.


----------



## Thoth420

ciarlatano said:


> Why are you not just using more P12 in white for the intakes? Thet are a _*much*_ better fan in all aspects than the F12 and come in the color you need. Can you not get more P12s? If you can't. there must be a better option than the F12, which is a really lousy fan.


I'm not a fan expert by any means but let me explain: I was under the impression that air flow (F12) fans would be better for intake to get cooling across the entire system surface.
The build is going to be running whatever Nvidia's new flagship is so my concern is getting air to the card. If using just all P12s would be fine then I would much rather do that. They are available so I can get more. I already have F12s here but I can return those. Thanks much fellas for the suggestions. It makes my life much much easier. 

Plan is 3 x 120mm intake front. 360mm Deepcool Castle EX top with 3x 120mm P12 exhausts. I am probably gonna leave the rear exhaust slot empty to start and see how it all goes.

PS I tend to just run all my fans at 100% 24/7 because I am lazy and never had a set I can really hear like that. Will this have any effect on cooling? Should I profile in the Q Fan?


----------



## JackCY

Airflow vs pressure oriented fans...
Airflow fan will usually have more blades, short blades or say an air "forwarder" would have very steep short blades and very few of them.

Pressure oriented fans tend to have less blades, large blades to push the air. And spin faster for similar noise level as the blades also transport less air at equal speed.

*The F series for all intents and purposes was replaced by P PWM series.*

The F series and any other airflow fan is only competitive when used in open air configuration, no restrictions, no grills, no fins, no radiator.

I certainly don't run my fans at 100% because that's well over 30 dB and very audible, most 140 mm fans I can tolerate in for quiet use until about 800 rpm. For other use, sure you're gonna drown it out with explosions and demons screaming in pain while being torn apart by Doomguy.

The reason I still have an F14 is because I got it long before P series launched and for my no restrictions exhaust it's fine. All the restrictive intake and heatsink fans are P14/12 PWM.


----------



## doyll

Thoth420 said:


> I'm not a fan expert by any means but let me explain: I was under the impression that air flow (F12) fans would be better for intake to get cooling across the entire system surface.
> The build is going to be running whatever Nvidia's new flagship is so my concern is getting air to the card. If using just all P12s would be fine then I would much rather do that. They are available so I can get more. I already have F12s here but I can return those. Thanks much fellas for the suggestions. It makes my life much much easier.
> 
> Plan is 3 x 120mm intake front. 360mm Deepcool Castle EX top with 3x 120mm P12 exhausts. I am probably gonna leave the rear exhaust slot empty to start and see how it all goes.
> 
> PS I tend to just run all my fans at 100% 24/7 because I am lazy and never had a set I can really hear like that. Will this have any effect on cooling? Should I profile in the Q Fan?


You have fallen for advertising hype instead of science and facts. 

Airflow occurs when higher pressure air moves into areaa of lower pressure air attempting to equalize the pressure differential. 

Grills and filters restrict airflow a lot. Even a very low restriction grills slow airflow by 30-50% (see link below). 
https://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?tid=wh_chessis&area=usa

Exhaust grills are not as restrictive and fancy intake grills. And filters are even more restrictive.
https://silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?area=en&tid=wh12_008

The more pressure a fan can create almost always gives better airflow.


----------



## Thoth420

doyll said:


> You have fallen for advertising hype instead of science and facts.
> 
> Airflow occurs when higher pressure air moves into areaa of lower pressure air attempting to equalize the pressure differential.
> 
> Grills and filters restrict airflow a lot. Even a very low restriction grills slow airflow by 30-50% (see link below).
> https://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?tid=wh_chessis&area=usa
> 
> Exhaust grills are not as restrictive and fancy intake grills. And filters are even more restrictive.
> https://silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?area=en&tid=wh12_008
> 
> The more pressure a fan can create almost always gives better airflow.


Thanks for cutting through the fud for me mate. Now might I ask about positive and negative pressure if you don't mind? Aside dust accumulation what is the real difference?


----------



## JackCY

You mean internal case pressure? Positive means the pressure inside a case is higher than outside and if you have filtered intakes then it won't try and suck in dirty air through gaps or unfiltered openings (to a certain degree and luck).
Negative will try suck air into the case anywhere it can, more exhaust than intake.

The pressure inside is not constant anyway all fans reduce pressure in front of them and raise it behind them.

If you use some good fine mesh dust filtering, it's a RIP for airflow especially if you can't have the filter be of very large area.


----------



## doyll

Please keep in mind the amount of pressure fan can make (static pressure rating) is very little. A fan that has a 1.5mmH2O static pressure rating as about as much pressure differential between intake it's intake side and exhaust pressure in a sealed container (how the measure static pressure) about the same as the difference in pressure on your stomach and on your feet when standing at sea level. Like I said, almost no pressure difference at all .. but it is enough to move air in our cases and if case has more fans pushing air in than pulling air out (I don't even use exhaust fans 99% of my builds) then only filtered air enters case as JackCY said.


----------



## Shenhua

NVM. I'm completely off topic.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

More reviews for you to nitpick... Looking at you doyll 😜


----------



## rares495

Interesting. Might have to take a look at Scythe's entire fan lineup after seeing these results.


----------



## ciarlatano

rares495 said:


> Interesting. Might have to take a look at Scythe's entire fan lineup after seeing these results.


I've had good results with the Kaze Flex in tests on heatsinks (never tested them on rads). Not my first choice in fans, but worth checking out.


----------



## hhkb

This youtube video demostrates the 1000 RPM hum on the P12 at 6m in: 




This was also mentioned a couple months ago by Larkonian. Seems like a deal breaker to me tbh as that noise sounds super annoying. Anyone know if the P14 has the same issue?


----------



## Shawnb99

hhkb said:


> This youtube video demostrates the 1000 RPM hum on the P12 at 6m in:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> This was also mentioned a couple months ago by Larkonian. Seems like a deal breaker to me tbh. Anyone know if the P14 has the same issue?


So just don’t run them at 1k rpm. Hum at only a set rpm is something I can live with for the price.


----------



## hhkb

Shawnb99 said:


> So just don’t run them at 1k rpm. Hum at only a set rpm is something I can live with for the price.


So never run them over 800rpm? What about when your case is under load? I usually rev up my fans e.g. when gaming, and they will approach 1000 RPM or so. Then you get this annoying hum when you play any game. Or just deal with high temps? Even if you ramp it above, it will hum as it passes through the RPM zone.

I agree the price is excellent but I also want a near quiet case - I hate coil whine and this noise sounds similarly annoying.


----------



## Shawnb99

hhkb said:


> So never run them over 800rpm? What about when your case is under load? I usually rev up my fans e.g. when gaming, and they will approach 1000 RPM or so. Then you get this annoying hum when you play any game. Or just deal with high temps? Even if you ramp it above, it will hum as it passes through the RPM zone.
> 
> I agree the price is excellent but I also want a near quiet case - I hate coil whine and this noise sounds similarly annoying.


If only happens at 1k then don’t run them 1k, that’s obviously meaning under 1k has no hum , same with over.
If it only does it at that rpm then I avoid that rpm speed.


----------



## hhkb

1000 rpm is a really annoying RPM to avoid on a 120mm fan, it's right in the sweet spot of where you start ramping your fans under load. It's basically impossible to avoid but you can try to ramp up fast through that range I guess.

Anyways I wonder if anyone w/ 140mm could verify whether they hear it or not at the same RPM? I'm looking at 140mm so that is my main concern.


----------



## ciarlatano

hhkb said:


> 1000 rpm is a really annoying RPM to avoid on a 120mm fan, it's right in the sweet spot of where you start ramping your fans under load. It's basically impossible to avoid but you can try to ramp up fast through that range I guess.
> 
> Anyways I wonder if anyone w/ 140mm could verify whether they hear it or not at the same RPM? I'm looking at 140mm so that is my main concern.


I don't recall any unusual hum on the 140mm when I tested them. That said, I did pull them out to go back to the Phanteks F140MP, which to my ear has a nicer sound signature and was (and is) giving me better performance in my application.


----------



## poah

hhkb said:


> So never run them over 800rpm? What about when your case is under load? I usually rev up my fans e.g. when gaming, and they will approach 1000 RPM or so. Then you get this annoying hum when you play any game. Or just deal with high temps? Even if you ramp it above, it will hum as it passes through the RPM zone.
> 
> I agree the price is excellent but I also want a near quiet case - I hate coil whine and this noise sounds similarly annoying.


no annoying noise at any RPM (hum or resonance). no issue with running at full speed but no need TBH


----------



## Shenhua

I think it's more of an issue with quality control rather than an inherent flaw.
I've seen a lot of feedback from other ppl that are not having this problem.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## Shawnb99

I'll be testing all of mine out on my next teardown. I have 10 of the 120's and 15 of the 140's. I'll see how many if any have a hum at any speeds and also compare them to my Noctua's.


----------



## doyll

Could be a combination of case grill design too. Vardar fans had similar problems with some combinations of grill / filter and fan at certain speeds.


----------



## Melcar

Fans blowing/sucking against those horrible case stamped out grills will always make awful noises. Depends on the grill design too, but generally it messes with the harmonics of the fan.


----------



## Shawnb99

Each brand has it's own harmonics as well. Sure Noctua's can be the quietest, they can also be annoying when ramped up.


----------



## ciarlatano

Melcar said:


> Fans blowing/sucking against those horrible case stamped out grills will always make awful noises. Depends on the grill design too, but generally it messes with the harmonics of the fan.


I'm not sure the grill design matters if the fan in question is a 120mm eLoop. They howl with _anything _near them.


----------



## rares495

hhkb said:


> 1000 rpm is a really annoying RPM to avoid on a 120mm fan, it's right in the sweet spot of where you start ramping your fans under load. It's basically impossible to avoid but you can try to ramp up fast through that range I guess.
> 
> Anyways I wonder if anyone w/ 140mm could verify whether they hear it or not at the same RPM? I'm looking at 140mm so that is my main concern.


I own some P14s and they do have the same hum at a certain RPM (never cared enough to find out the exact number). It is inaudible in a <30dB room. My PC has no side panel atm and is 40-50cm away from my ears.


----------



## hhkb

rares495 said:


> I own some P14s and they do have the same hum at a certain RPM (never cared enough to find out the exact number). It is inaudible in a <30dB room. My PC has no side panel atm and is 40-50cm away from my ears.


Hmm sounds promising... I may give them a shot. Not sure my wallet can stand anymore buying overpriced fans with 20 quid margins... 🤣.


----------



## rares495

hhkb said:


> Hmm sounds promising... I may give them a shot. Not sure my wallet can stand anymore buying overpriced fans with 20 quid margins... 🤣.


Yeah nice thing about the Arctics is they're like $2 each so even if you don't like them you can just toss them away somewhere 🤣


----------



## sleepwithechoes

An Arctic engineer wrote a comment to some Youtube video stating that they designed the fan so that it's quieter overall but the drawback is that annoying hum in certaing small RPM range (somewhere between 1-1,2k RPM). I got hit by it by accident but resolved it by changing the fan curve by a couple %. My other annoyance with P12 is their tendency to be a bit rattly when ramping up (happened to me in a couple different cases). Other than those two problems, very nice fans for the price!


----------



## doyll

sleepwithechoes said:


> An Arctic engineer wrote a comment to some Youtube video stating that they designed the fan so that it's quieter overall but the drawback is that annoying hum in certaing small RPM range (somewhere between 1-1,2k RPM). I got hit by it by accident but resolved it by changing the fan curve by a couple %. My other annoyance with P12 is their tendency to be a bit rattly when ramping up (happened to me in a couple different cases). Other than those two problems, very nice fans for the price!


Seems this curled impeller design is more prone to harmonic noise rpm ranges than others. As long as it's a narrow rpm range issue slight changes in temp:rpm curve generally solve it.


----------



## JackCY

hhkb said:


> This youtube video demostrates the 1000 RPM hum on the P12 at 6m in:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was also mentioned a couple months ago by Larkonian. Seems like a deal breaker to me tbh as that noise sounds super annoying. Anyone know if the P14 has the same issue?


All fans do this.

My 2x P12 PWM on a GPU have a slight whistling sound as in the video at 1170 rpm. I'm scanning the whole range of them right now, it is barely even noticeable, you gotta place a microphone near and crank up the volume to be able to hear this in any recording. At 1000 rpm I can't almost hear the fans at all and I have a side vent from the GPU with case laying on table and this vent arm length away. I can touch the fan through the vent with my fingers. The range at which this happens is very very narrow. I've also had to make the room entirely quiet with window closed so I don't hear the outside tiny birds etc. it is damn quiet here alright. It's not some loud annoying resonance, and again, all fans do this. Every rotating thing has some resonance frequency where it is more audible than at other rotating speeds.

The only thing I noticed was that the P14 PWM are a little louder when they are being started from 0 slowly, but the GPU fan controller for P12 PWM doesn't work like this and start and stop all the time with the controller giving them a kick for every speed change, they don't make annoying sound to me other then airflow as any fan does.

You can go and demonstrate this on pretty much any fan. Find the speed at which it's louder.

I haven't found it on P14 PWMs and I have 4 of them in the case elbow away.

Or one can go pay 5x as much for a 120mm Noctua with entirely different airflow profile, they don't make 140mm equivalent either, and then go cry OMG I found their resonance frequency and demand a refund.

If you have a smart fan controller you could literally find this frequency and cut it out of the operating range. Not all fans have fans have it at the very same speed, see mine are at 1170, the video claims 1000, so for a manufacturer it's not really feasible to cut this range out precisely. You gotta do it yourself if it bothers you. A lot of things are made like this, either to not operate at that frequency at all or simply skip it, run lower or higher.

The range is as expected very narrow, you just need to change the speed very little. This is what my GPU's fan controller does anyway, it doesn't hard lock the fans to one speed as much. Some GPU fan controllers will even run the fans at different speeds to avoid interference, etc. It's all about control.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

For mei t happens around 1090 rpm, 70 or 80 rpm more or less and it's gone. And only on the p12s, it doesn't happen on my p14s.


----------



## hhkb

Now if only the P14 Value Pack wasn't always sold out...


----------



## doyll

I've said it before, but to keep it front and center:

Arctic's "10 year warranty" is almost worthless. While it is "10 year warranty" it's 10% deprecdiation per year based on original purchase price, and owner have to return defective fan to Arctic (see last sentence in below quote from warranty) to get anything. Let's say we buy a 5 pack for $30, so each fan cost $6.00. In 5 years one goes bad so we deduct 10% per year for a depreciated value of $3.00. But it will cost more than $3.00 to return the fan to Arctic. So "warranty" is just a pretty word, that when we look at it's details becomes basically worthless. 


> _"If there are any defects in materials or workmanship in your Arctic product during the warranty period, Arctic will remedy these defects at its own expense by repairing or supplying new or refurbished parts. Arctic has the right to choose the means of remedying the defect. In individual cases, due to the constantly advancing technology, the repair or replacement of the product may result in disproportionate costs for Arctic. In this case, Arctic is entitled to refund the fair value of the product instead of repairing or replacing it. Arctic will calculate the fair value by taking into account the objective nature of the product. The fair value will be at least the amount of the purchase price, less 10% at the end of each year after delivery. For example, at the end of the third year after delivery, the fair value will be at least the amount of the purchase price, less 30%.
> 
> Arctic can only grant claims under this warranty if you send the product along with the original receipt/original proof of purchase showing the date of purchase and the seller to the location specified by Customer Service (for example, to a repair center). The product must be properly packaged to avoid damage during shipping._
> . . . . . . . .
> _*You are responsible for the cost of returning the device and Arctic will pay for the cost of sending the repaired or replaced device to you.*_
> 
> _*Arctic is not willing or obliged to participate in dispute resolution proceedings before a consumer arbitration board.*"_


Last sentences above are last ones in warranty.
lWarranty policies and procedure | ARCTIC


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

The fan cost $6 and performs close to top of the line noctuas that cost 4 or 5 times more. Even if they lasted just a year you can still buy a new one for 5 years for the price of that one noctua... So for the price/performance the warranty it's not really a deciding factor IMO


----------



## doyll

SmOOthWitIt said:


> The fan cost $6 and performs close to top of the line noctuas that cost 4 or 5 times more. Even if they lasted just a year you can still buy a new one for 5 years for the price of that one noctua... So for the price/performance the warranty it's not really a deciding factor IMO


I haven't seen any for $6, except in 5-packs. Individual prices are $12-15 a fan. Please post links to where we can buy them for $6. 
Seems like the $6 a fan only applies to individual price when buying 5-pack. 
I doubt their price will be $6 in even 3 years

But that doesn't change the fact that their "10 year warranty" is nothing but an advertising gimmick. Arctic don't expect their products to last 10 years, or even 5 years. If they did they would have a warranty like Noctua does and send owners of defective fans new ones by simply letting them know you have a defective one. 

I just want reader of this thread to realize the "10 year warranty" is nothing but advertising hype. That's what I was pointing out.


----------



## ciarlatano

@doyll - It's cute that someone created an account with no purpose other than to harass you about Arctic fans. You have groupies!


----------



## Avacado

ciarlatano said:


> @doyll - It's cute that someone created an account with no purpose other than to harass you about Arctic fans. You have groupies!


He's always had groupies, he's just tired of the older ones


----------



## maltamonk

To be fair his campaign against the fans doesn't really make logical sense either.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

doyll said:


> I haven't seen any for $6, except in 5-packs. Individual prices are $12-15 a fan. Please post links to where we can buy them for $6.
> Seems like the $6 a fan only applies to individual price when buying 5-pack.
> I doubt their price will be $6 in even 3 years
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that their "10 year warranty" is nothing but an advertising gimmick. Arctic don't expect their products to last 10 years, or even 5 years. If they did they would have a warranty like Noctua does and send owners of defective fans new ones by simply letting them know you have a defective one.
> 
> I just want reader of this thread to realize the "10 year warranty" is nothing but advertising hype. That's what I was pointing out.


I understand what you're saying, that 10 years warranty is deceiving but nobody buys this fan for the warranty. And Noctua does all that because you've already paid for it anyway. 
I live in portugal, here you can buy P14s for €6.99 Arctic - Fan 14cm P14 PWM PST Preto. 
And P12 for €4.99 Arctic - Fan 12cm P12 PWM Preto.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

ciarlatano said:


> @doyll - It's cute that someone created an account with no purpose other than to harass you about Arctic fans. You have groupies!


Hahaha people do that! Damn, thats sad.


----------



## doyll

SmOOthWitIt said:


> I understand what you're saying, that 10 years warranty is deceiving but nobody buys this fan for the warranty. And Noctua does all that because you've already paid for it anyway.
> I live in portugal, here you can buy P14s for €6.99 Arctic - Fan 14cm P14 PWM PST Preto.
> And P12 for €4.99 Arctic - Fan 12cm P12 PWM Preto.


If you really believe that "10 year warranty" does not sway buyers you truely have no idea how marketing works.
Many if not most buyers see "10 year warranty" and think fan will last 10 years .. because they think company "10 years" will replace them if they fail. But Arctic is using "10 year warranty" as a fishing lure to suck consumer in.

Even Corsar with mediocre products using very good marketing to grab big market share do not pay consumer like Arctic is. Corsair's "6 year warranty" on CLCs give owner a new CLC either paying return of defective product up front or reimbursing owner the shipping costs. 

Last sentence of their warranty is a lie. 
It reads:
"_*Arctic is not willing or obliged to participate in dispute resolution proceedings before a consumer arbitration board.*"_​While true, if someone disputes Arctic's warranty decision and turns it over to their country's arbitration or whatever consumer protection country has Arctic does not have to participate. But they do have to do whatever laws of that country decide and pay accordingly. So it's just more Arctic garbage talk.

All that said, I'm not saying fans are garbage. In fact they seem to be a good value fan. Just don't fall for Arctic's misleading statements. 



maltamonk said:


> To be fair his campaign against the fans doesn't really make logical sense either.


No campaign against the fans. Just campaign against Arctic's misleading warranty.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

doyll said:


> If you really believe that "10 year warranty" does not sway buyers you truely have no idea how marketing works.
> Many if not most buyers see "10 year warranty" and think fan will last 10 years .. because they think company "10 years" will replace them if they fail. But Arctic is using "10 year warranty" as a fishing lure to suck consumer in.
> 
> Even Corsar with mediocre products using very good marketing to grab big market share do not pay consumer like Arctic is. Corsair's "6 year warranty" on CLCs give owner a new CLC either paying return of defective product up front or reimbursing owner the shipping costs.
> 
> Last sentence of their warranty is a lie.
> It reads:
> "_*Arctic is not willing or obliged to participate in dispute resolution proceedings before a consumer arbitration board.*"_​While true, if someone disputes Arctic's warranty decision and turns it over to their country's arbitration or whatever consumer protection country has Arctic does not have to participate. But they do have to do whatever laws of that country decide and pay accordingly. So it's just more Arctic garbage talk.
> 
> All that said, I'm not saying fans are garbage. In fact they seem to be a good value fan. Just don't fall for Arctic's misleading statements.
> 
> 
> No campaign against the fans. Just campaign against Arctic's misleading warranty.


Oh I know how marketing works and how people fall for big numbers like that but for such cheap fan i dont think that's the case. If I paid $30 for a fan it would be a big deal but not a €4.99 fan. I mean any cheaper and would be free 😉


----------



## Avacado

SmOOthWitIt said:


> Hahaha people do that! Damn, thats sad.


He was talking about you!


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

Avacado said:


> He was talking about you!


🤦‍♂️ sarcasm can be over people heads sometimes, like high ceilings or bright ideas. About that, yeah... I could mention how every time someone says something to @doyll his girlfriend pops out to say something but... don't have time for people that have their head so far up... they seem to think that the world revolves around them which makes sense since they got the head stuck... I digress! Anything about the Artic fans?


----------



## Avacado

SmOOthWitIt said:


> 🤦‍♂️ sarcasm can be over people heads sometimes, like high ceilings or bright ideas. About that, yeah... I could mention how every time someone says something to @doyll his girlfriend pops out to say something but... don't have time for people that have their head so far up... they seem to think that the world revolves around them which makes sense since they got the head stuck... I digress! Anything about the Artic fans?


Glad to see I could be there for you to vent your life's frustrations on. Sarcasm is often over peoples heads because it is text. I do love how over the top your insult was going my way when it didn't seem warranted, thanks!

P.S. We tend to follow people who's knowledge we have come to respect.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

You kinda asked for it a bit. If anyone should clarify who they're talking to should be the talker. I clearly knew he was talking about me ence my reply. But thanks for the help i guess. 


Ps: you can follow anyone you want, you free like that! Cheers


----------



## Avacado

@In


SmOOthWitIt said:


> You kinda asked for it a bit. If anyone should clarify who they're talking to should be the talker. I clearly knew he was talking about me ence my reply. But thanks for the help i guess.
> 
> 
> Ps: you can follow anyone you want, you free like that! Cheers


Ok ToTheSun! Appreciate your take on it. Next time just use your main to comment, would be nice.


----------



## poah

They run quieter than most fans. You cannot equate their price to quality. 



doyll said:


> Again, I'm not saying Arctic P series are bad. I'm saying they are a low cost fan at a low price, and as such will likely not run as quiet near as long as better quality fans will.


----------



## doyll

History of "Arctic" products has shown their "quality" to not be as good as many other brands. 

Again, not saying fans are bad. Just that they are most likely not as well build as many others on the market.


----------



## Owterspace

Arctic has always been a little more "budget friendly" and it has always been reflected in their price. You can tell by how it feels too. Its cool you like them, but they aren't the best, and they never were. If you get 5 years out of your fan then be happy.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

That's one way to look at it. The way I see it, based on personal experience, Artic always makes great performing products considering the price range. Obviously there's better fans but they often cost 3 to 5 times more while performing just slightly better. And then you have those that cost 3/5 more and still get outperformed by Artic p series. The only thing you can really say is that the warranty isn't exactly what it implies and whether it will last or not, but IMO those aren't much of a downside considering how well they perform and how cheap they are. I'll gladly roll the dice, I mean I've owned Artic F series fans since 2016/17 and they still work fine, not using them since I've upgraded to the p series few months ago mainly for quieter operation since the f12 gets noisy a max rpm which was around 1300rpm, but other than that they work just like day one.


----------



## poah

Cryorig push more air than the P12s and do work better but are a lot louder. I own lots of fans



ciarlatano said:


> Until you realize that this is no different than him going on about Cryorig 120mm fans being the best fans on the market, you are just spinning your wheels. He will believe that whatever he owns at the moment is the best available regardless of any facts. He's shown it with every product he's owned.


----------



## jayfkay

poah said:


> Cryorig push more air than the P12s and do work better but are a lot louder. I own lots of fans


Share your experience please? I am currently undecided about which fans would be ideal for both my D15 and my airflow case, for realistic usage (i.e. best cooling at 35-40db).

For example there is this:








According to this chart, the noiseblockers and Scythe Kaze do look more enticing than the Arctics and they can be had for roughly the same money used.
However I heard the Noiseblockers have annoying turbulence noise when pulling air thru any obstacles like meshes, which makes them only usable for exhaust.
I have seen this specific complaint on 3 different occasions, so there must be something to it.

Please share your thoughts and input on any of these fans if you own or have owned them.


----------



## D-EJ915

nbeloop 14 won't fit in the middle of a D15 so you won't be able to use it.


----------



## Shenhua

The one that comes with it is more than good enough. You won't get any improvement for changing the fan on the nh d15, especially with an airflow case.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

* jayfkay*
Your chart is just a bunch of colored lines meaning nothing. 

Reasons why:
40dB is louder than most of us run our systems​No reference to resistance, like grill and/or filter​No reference to component intake air temp (air temp into component vs component temp is almost 1:1 ratio)​
This is a common problem. Too often people make judgements based on graphs with no idea how data represented on it was gathered. Graph is only good if test procedure was good.

As *Shenhua* said, NF-A15 are good. Only way to improve cooling is changing not just cooler fans but also case fans to hi-performance loud fans. *Oweterspace *uses hi-performance fans, just not at full speed most of the time.


----------



## jayfkay

doyll said:


> * jayfkay*
> Your chart is just a bunch of colored lines meaning nothing.


Tech Buyer Guru is small but made some decent reviews.
2 fans placed as front intakes in a 500DX airflow case, then the measuring device 4 feet in front of the case, then he normalized all fan RPMs to 35 and 40db. This can be seen if you actually spent time looking at the graph, because it lists the amount of fans and their RPMs at the bottom.
I'd say with such methodology it's far from a "bunch of meaningless colored lines" and there is absolutely no need to be arrogant and dismissive.



doyll said:


> As *Shenhua* said, NF-A15 are good. Only way to improve cooling is changing not just cooler fans but also case fans to hi-performance loud fans. *Oweterspace *uses hi-performance fans, just not at full speed most of the time.


I see, so it's either noise or diminishing returns.


----------



## Owterspace

To move a lot of air, you have to make some noise. That noise could be from the motor, turbulence/buffeting, you can hear the air scrub your components if you move enough of it. What do you want to do with the air? Are you overclocking and benchmarking? Distributed computing? Are you wanting an efficient gaming machine? Is this an office/bedroom/htpc machine? What are your ambients? Is it hot where you live like +30c or is it winter? There is no cookie cutter setup, a lot of people don’t understand that. There is literally a product for everyone at every price point. Concessions always have to be made somewhere. That could be airflow, noise, quality, price, whatever..


----------



## doyll

jayfkay said:


> Tech Buyer Guru is small but made some decent reviews.
> 2 fans placed as front intakes in a 500DX airflow case, then the measuring device 4 feet in front of the case, then he normalized all fan RPMs to 35 and 40db. This can be seen if you actually spent time looking at the graph, because it lists the amount of fans and their RPMs at the bottom.
> I'd say with such methodology it's far from a "bunch of meaningless colored lines" and there is absolutely no need to be arrogant and dismissive.


The graph you posted image of has nothing at all like what you are claiming. Your just said: _"This can be seen if you actually spent time looking at the graph, because it lists the amount of fans and their RPMs at the bottom."_ 
Graph image you posted is copy/pasted below. Please show me where this information is in that posted image, because I sure don't see anything even remotely like what you claim to see by "actually spent time looking at graph", but than I didn't zone out on it in some sort of meditational trance either. Maybe it's hidden in all those colored lines.


----------



## jayfkay

doyll said:


> Graph image you posted is copy/pasted below. Please show me where this information is in that posted image


On top: Noise normalized tests at 40db measured from 6 inch distance and 21° ambient.
On the bottom: amount of fans used and RPM. The fact that chipset, gpu, cpu, vrm and m2 were measured can tell you that it wasn't just a random test, but probably in a case.
It's not all the info I wrote but it can give you an idea that it's not just "some meaningless colors". I probably should have included relevant info in the first place anyway.


----------



## doyll

jayfkay said:


> On top: Noise normalized tests at 40db measured from 6 inch distance and 21° ambient.
> On the bottom: amount of fans used and RPM. The fact that chipset, gpu, cpu, vrm and m2 were measured can tell you that it wasn't just a random test, but probably in a case..
> It's not all the info I wrote but it can give you an idea that it's not just "some meaningless colors". I probably should have included relevant info in the first place anyway.


I saw that. 

But nothing about what case is used so no idea what grill and/or filter resistance is. Nothing about how airflow is moving through case. No record of air temp entering component coolers.
Sorry, but there are way too many variables not being addressed with airflow that need to be addressed before we can use that kind of graph to determine what fan is better than anothre.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

SmOOthWitIt said:


>


Here's the full review in case you've missed it back there


----------



## doyll

Sorry, I'm just too old-school. I want to read written test procedure, not watch a video. Not saying video reviewing is bad,just no my cup of tea.


----------



## SmOOthWitIt

doyll said:


> Sorry, I'm just too old-school. I want to read written test procedure, not watch a video. Not saying video reviewing is bad,just no my cup of tea.


Fair enough, although just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean it isn't valid...


----------



## doyll

SmOOthWitIt said:


> Fair enough, although just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean it isn't valid...


Professionals in industry write thesis and procedure. 
Thereflore anyone not doing so is not.
Make of that what you want.


----------



## 2600ryzen

The noiseblocker seems to win that benchmark because of the very low chipset temp. Cpu temp is slightly below avg and gpu temp is slightly above average. Going by just the cpu/gpu temps the kaze flex 140mm wins.


----------



## jayfkay

doyll said:


> Professionals in industry write thesis and procedure.
> Thereflore anyone not doing so is not.
> Make of that what you want.


You are judging every info source harshly or denouncing it, yet you said this was great and well done:


Thermalbench.com


Where is the thesis, then? Where are the temperature benchmarks? Where are the temperature measurements of ambient air and air entering the components?
Where are the case benchmarks? Where are the heatsink benchmarks? Where are the noise profiles?

In your own words...


doyll said:


> Sorry, but there are way too many variables not being addressed with airflow that need to be addressed before we can use that kind of graph to determine what fan is better than anothre.





2600ryzen said:


> The noiseblocker seems to win that benchmark because of the very low chipset temp. Cpu temp is slightly below avg and gpu temp is slightly above average. Going by just the cpu/gpu temps the kaze flex 140mm wins.


Yes! That's what I was saying earlier. The Kaze Flex and eLoop look very enticing there.
But then there is this:


Spoiler



















Where the Kaze Flex and eLoop both perform worse than quite a few others.
The only caveat is that he only used a single fan as exhaust in the back of the case for this test, nothing else. Who knows what it would look like if he used 2 fans in the front and 1 of them on the heatsink instead.. etc etc.
Still can't decide on what fans to buy.

There is also the thing where almost all airflow cases only support 120mm fans in the back, except the 500DX, which supports 140mm. Shouldn't this make it better than the others by default?


----------



## 2600ryzen

That test has resistance on the exhaust side with the exhaust grill, the p14 seems to win by miles and it didn't even look like it had any anti vibration around the screw holes..does anyone have the p14 and does it have any type of anti vibration rubber for mounting it? Or is it just hard plastic with metal screws?
I have the sw3 140mm 1000rpm version, I'm happy enough with that but the p14 really looks good in those benchmarks.

Edit: the p14 and p12 are 27mm thick which is almost 10% thicker than most fans, I think the thickness and the motor(low noise = low power motor = lower operating temp = longer life fan) in the p series is why it performs so well in benchmarks. 
An important distinction is how does 36dba on the p14 sound like compared to 36dba for the sw3 140mm or any fan in person? That matters a lot and you can never find out properly until you have the fans in your possession.


----------



## JackCY

2600ryzen said:


> That test has resistance on the exhaust side with the exhaust grill, the p14 seems to win by miles and it didn't even look like it had any anti vibration around the screw holes..does anyone have the p14 and does it have any type of anti vibration rubber for mounting it? Or is it just hard plastic with metal screws?
> I have the sw3 140mm 1000rpm version, I'm happy enough with that but the p14 really looks good in those benchmarks.


Lol nope. I also hard screw mounted them as I was sick of bothering with the endless rubber mounts, having to pull them, break them in half, take some other type, oh sticks here, oh it makes a gap there. Screw it and just screwed the fans in hard with screws. They don't really wobble, rattle, etc. as some older fans do, so not a problem that it would vibrate the case for me.

Some fans may come with rubber mounts, my older Gelids did. Arctics don't, you get only screws.
Maybe some fans come with rubber pads on the face sides (some Noctua) but that's useless when you use rubber mounts. When you screw those, then those rubber faces help nothing. Plus when I needed to raise a fan on it's face side as I was zip tie mounting it, I put a piece of foam there, done.

If you screw this in and not use a rubber/silicone/flexible mount:










Then those "pretty" brown rubbers might as well not be there at all.


----------



## Shenhua

2600ryzen said:


> That test has resistance on the exhaust side with the exhaust grill, the p14 seems to win by miles and it didn't even look like it had any anti vibration around the screw holes..does anyone have the p14 and does it have any type of anti vibration rubber for mounting it? Or is it just hard plastic with metal screws?
> I have the sw3 140mm 1000rpm version, I'm happy enough with that but the p14 really looks good in those benchmarks.
> 
> Edit: the p14 and p12 are 27mm thick which is almost 10% thicker than most fans, I think the thickness and the motor(low noise = low power motor = lower operating temp = longer life fan) in the p series is why it performs so well in benchmarks.
> An important distinction is how does 36dba on the p14 sound like compared to 36dba for the sw3 140mm or any fan in person? That matters a lot and you can never find out properly until you have the fans in your possession.


That graph it's from a "reviewer" that i would ignore completly.
I can understand the p14 topping out premium fans, but the fractal one is complete garbage, and he has more reviews like this. He is also evaluating the looks of the fans and coolers on a scale, which is a completely subjective matter.

If you tell me the guy is on crack everytime he does a review, i would belive it.

Don't belive everything you see.

It's the impeller not the motor. I think noctua, and even Arctic found out what made the nidec GTs so good and copied them. I'm saying this because they perform identically in the 120mm versions, and the p14 uses the same impeller design as the p12.
The nf a12x25 it's almost a 100% clone with tighter tolerances.


----------



## doyll

jayfkay said:


> You are judging every info source harshly or denouncing it, yet you said this was great and well done:
> 
> 
> Thermalbench.com
> 
> 
> Where is the thesis, then? Where are the temperature benchmarks? Where are the temperature measurements of ambient air and air entering the components?
> Where are the case benchmarks? Where are the heatsink benchmarks? Where are the noise profiles?
> 
> In your own words...
> 
> Yes! That's what I was saying earlier. The Kaze Flex and eLoop look very enticing there.
> But then there is this:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 2465249
> 
> Where the Kaze Flex and eLoop both perform worse than quite a few others.
> The only caveat is that he only used a single fan as exhaust in the back of the case for this test, nothing else. Who knows what it would look like if he used 2 fans in the front and 1 of them on the heatsink instead.. etc etc.
> Still can't decide on what fans to buy.
> 
> There is also the thing where almost all airflow cases only support 120mm fans in the back, except the 500DX, which supports 140mm. Shouldn't this make it better than the others by default?


You are mistaken.
I said our graph with lots of fancy colors was misleading because tester does not give wirtten test procedure, and from what you've said doesn't have a good procedure because there are too many unaccounted for variables.

Using a case to test fans is not testing fans on their own marrits. It's testing how well a specific case with specific components performs with specific fans. That is a lot of variables.

I said Thermalbench (VSG) goes good testing. His testing does have written test procedure. His testing uses a 120mm radiator for 120mm fans and a 140mm rad for 140mm fans. no other variables in envolved because ambient air temp in room that is comfortable to be in doesn't change results if it's a couple degrees one way or the other .. it isn't a variable.

And away you go again graph of fancy colored lines meaning nothing because there is no procedure. 

Maybe if I explain that graphs represent results of a given test procedure. 
Without the test procedure results mean nothing .. or worse, lead people to think things that are not at all accurate .. sometimes not even logical.

For example If I posted a graph of same fans you just did but changed the colors of fan model labels to the color of a different fan on that graph, my graph would be a fake, but you would have no idea if it was or wasn't without viewing the video review or looking at test procedure one would be as good as the other.

Ciarlatano and I did testing and reviews for many years. We have seen first hand how inaccurate many testing procedures are. Our working knowledge of computer review industry is the bases on which we post much of what we do. 

"Don't judge a book by it's cover" saying is applicable to looking at a graph and drawing conclusions.

“Figures don’t lie, but liars figure” also comes to mind.
The point of the saying is that you can start with accurate data (“figures don’t lie”), but the data can be manipulated by someone knowledgeable and unscrupulous (“liars can do the figuring”).

Keep in mind reviewers depend on companies giving them samples to test and review. If they give product a really bad review there is a good chance that company will not give them samples for future reviews.


----------



## 2600ryzen

JackCY said:


> Lol nope. I also hard screw mounted them as I was sick of bothering with the endless rubber mounts, having to pull them, break them in half, take some other type, oh sticks here, oh it makes a gap there. Screw it and just screwed the fans in hard with screws. They don't really wobble, rattle, etc. as some older fans do, so not a problem that it would vibrate the case for me.
> 
> Some fans may come with rubber mounts, my older Gelids did. Arctics don't, you get only screws.
> Maybe some fans come with rubber pads on the face sides (some Noctua) but that's useless when you use rubber mounts. When you screw those, then those rubber faces help nothing. Plus when I needed to raise a fan on it's face side as I was zip tie mounting it, I put a piece of foam there, done.
> 
> If you screw this in and not use a rubber/silicone/flexible mount:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then those "pretty" brown rubbers might as well not be there at all.


That makes the p12 performance even more impressive. Anti vibration mounts do improve noise normalized thermals slightly. Some of the other fans there had some form of anti vibration mounts like the sw3 with rubber screw holes.


----------



## jayfkay

25€ for two Noiseblocker B14-PS or 18€ for two Arctic P14 PWM.... 🤔 
cant decide


----------



## sleepwithechoes

@jayfkay I'd go for the Noiseblockers if the difference is 7 euros. P14's have annoying flaws that can be heard in many cases. Eg. rattling sound when ramping up, an annoying sound profile in certain RPM range somewhere around 1050 to 1200 rpm. YMMV but this is my experience with them as case fans on Fractal cases.


----------



## ciarlatano

jayfkay said:


> 25€ for two Noiseblocker B14-PS or 18€ for two Arctic P14 PWM.... 🤔
> cant decide





sleepwithechoes said:


> @jayfkay I'd go for the Noiseblockers if the difference is 7 euros. P14's have annoying flaws that can be heard in many cases. Eg. rattling sound when ramping up, an annoying sound profile in certain RPM range somewhere around 1050 to 1200 rpm. YMMV but this is my experience with them as case fans on Fractal cases.


I agree with @sleepwithechoes. With that small price difference it isn't even a question, you do the eLoops every time.


----------



## JackCY

sleepwithechoes said:


> @jayfkay I'd go for the Noiseblockers if the difference is 7 euros. P14's have annoying flaws that can be heard in many cases. Eg. rattling sound when ramping up, an annoying sound profile in certain RPM range somewhere around 1050 to 1200 rpm. YMMV but this is my experience with them as case fans on Fractal cases.


No problems here with the same case brand and fans. P14 PWM, not P14 though, they have different motor.
The "resonance" is found on all rotating things, all fans. Yes it's in that range and my comment about it is earlier where I tested, found the specific speed. Was it P12 PWM or P14 PWM that people worried about. Yes it's there but as far as I remember it was so quiet that to me that's a non issue. In the video posted it was exaggerated because they don't give you a reference, they just stick the microphone close and record the noise, no matter what noise it is, you don't get a level nor spectrum graph and distance matters for noise a lot.
I think it was for P12 PWM, not P14 PWM.

I have the case elbow away with 3 P14 PWM at front, and a side vent facing up to me, never have a problem noise wise with some annoying rattle or what ever people worry about. Past 1000 RPM the air noise will hide it anyway on most fans unless their motor is bad/loud at all RPMs and yes such fans do exist , _cough_ Fractal.

The fans aren't expensive, if someone is worried, they can buy 1 piece, test it themselves instead of trying to decide from walls of text and bad tests on YouTube. Plus in EU hell you could walk back within 14 days and return it no problem to get your 5-7 EUR back if it's that bad for you.

I could take any fan and find something bad about it. But good luck finding something that offers better value. If someone wants best performance, why are they even looking at 25mm fans and PC consumer market fans to begin with, just go spend a ton on proper industrial fans, not the "industrial" Noctua but proper industrial screamers.


----------



## JackCY

jayfkay said:


> 25€ for two Noiseblocker B14-PS or 18€ for two Arctic P14 PWM.... 🤔
> cant decide


As far as I can find Noiseblocker B14-PS is about 22 EUR a 1 piece, not 2.
The Arctic P14 PWM is 7 EUR a 1 piece.

No idea where you found the cheap Noiseblockers and expensive Arctics but it sure depends on what one can get and prices vary between countries/regions.
I simply checked Geizhals.eu and Amazon.de.

Would be nice if there were better value fans but at these low prices... probably not gonna happen.

Locally for me it stacks up like this:

27.27 EUR Noiseblocker B14-PS
5.37 EUR Arctic P14 PWM

So that makes it a very easy choice where even getting fans internationally makes no sense.

Again be it Noctua or Noiseblocker or what ever "fancier" made in China/Asia brand often anyway, it tends to turn out that I can either equip a whole case (4-5 fans) with Arctic P PWM series or get 1 "fancy" fan instead.

Someone finds better value fans, let me know.


----------



## Shenhua

JackCY said:


> As far as I can find Noiseblocker B14-PS is about 22 EUR a 1 piece, not 2.
> The Arctic P14 PWM is 7 EUR a 1 piece.
> 
> No idea where you found the cheap Noiseblockers and expensive Arctics but it sure depends on what one can get and prices vary between countries/regions.
> I simply checked Geizhals.eu and Amazon.de.
> 
> Would be nice if there were better value fans but at these low prices... probably not gonna happen.
> 
> Locally for me it stacks up like this:
> 
> 27.27 EUR Noiseblocker B14-PS
> 5.37 EUR Arctic P14 PWM
> 
> So that makes it a very easy choice where even getting fans internationally makes no sense.
> 
> Again be it Noctua or Noiseblocker or what ever "fancier" made in China/Asia brand often anyway, it tends to turn out that I can either equip a whole case (4-5 fans) with Arctic P PWM series or get 1 "fancy" fan instead.
> 
> Someone finds better value fans, let me know.


Same here

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## ThomasB456

BroadPwns said:


> After painting proof that I managed to dismantle it.


How did you manage to get the fan blades away from the housing?


----------



## jockerfreak

Could someone please tell me whether to get the P14 PST CO or the "normal" PST? I am currently using the P14 PWM PST on my rads and as case fans and they are great. Planning to build a new PC for my brother and can't decide. Acoustics and Price/Performance are the most important factor. PC could get dusty though, as my brother rarely cleans his PC.


----------



## 2600ryzen

PST CO just doesn't have a 0rpm mode, "CO"=continuous operation. Besides that I think they're identical.


----------



## Dogzilla07

The main difference with the CO is that they have a ball bearing, and not a sleeve bearing like the regular ones, which means they will produce a constant irritating noise, that some people will mind and some not.

It's also gonna have more longevity turned in a horizontal orientation, like on top or bottom of the case, or in a power supply or on a graphics card for instance.


----------



## JackCY

CO are ball bearing as per specs, just check Arctic's product pages it's all there. Ball bearings are not as quiet as fluid bearings, rolling metal balls are obviously more noisy. Some BBs are less annoying than other, I don't like the BB in my PSU so it runs passive but the MSI GPU BB fans are really nice actually, have the same BB noise but it's not loud or annoying, plus they only spin when the GPU is used so my headphones probably cover that fan noise anyway where as on idle the GPU BB fans stop so they don't bother me but the PSU fan I could hear clearly on idle.

PWM and PWM PST are fine. If you want a ball bearing get the CO then. Don't get the non PWM.


----------



## jayfkay

JackCY said:


> Don't get the non PWM.


Why not?


----------



## JackCY

jayfkay said:


> Why not?


The nonPWM does not mention to have the newer motor, beside Arctic I don't remember who else shows this difference or tested it. I only have the old F14 nonPWM. And you don't want that motor if you can use a P series PWM.
I do not think the PWM and nonPWM have the same motor due to different start voltage and rated current.
Maybe it's fine, I don't know, but all the P series PWM versions are fine for sure and easier to control in large quantity with a powered splitter.

The same likely goes for other brands and their PWM and nonPWM motors not being the same.


----------



## 2600ryzen

The non pwm P14 has a fluid dynamic bearing like the pwm version according to arctic website. The P14 is also 27mm thick which is about 8% thicker than most fans, should help it generate some more static pressure.


----------



## doyll

I always get PWM fans, never get variable voltage. PWM fans are variable voltage fans when plugged into variable voltage fan headers, and PWM fans when plugged into PWM fan headers. Simple as that. 

PWM fan headers have 4 pins; 
pin-1 = Ground​pin-2 = 12v power​pin-3 = rpm signal to header from fan​pin-4 = PWM control between header and PWM circuitry in fan.​
Variable Voltage fan headers have 3 pins;
pin-1 = Ground​pin-2 = Variable voltage up to 12v​pin-3 = rpm signal to header from fan.​


----------



## 2600ryzen

A lot of motherboard 4 pin pwm headers do voltage control to for 3 pin fans, 2 of the 3 pwm headers on my asus b350 can do voltage control. I agree you should always get the pwm version if they're the same price, pwm is superior because it uses less power at less than max rpm's which means the pwm fan will run cooler and last longer.


----------



## doyll

Indeed, can't remember what brand / model motherboard it was, but it had a pressure switch that automatically set variable voltage fan header to PWM when PWM plug was plugged into it.


----------



## 2600ryzen

I got 2 x 140mm P14 pwm pst fans today, very happy with how quiet the bearing/motor is. It's the first fan where I'm not sure I can even hear it "clicking" when I put my ear to it at low rpm. It basically has zero motor/bearing noise at low rpm which is good because fan benchmarks don't/can't really show how low the bearing noise on a fan is.
One thing I've notice is the minimum rpm is 300 instead of the 200rpm listed in specs and it doesn't seem to have a 0rpm mode?(I'm not sure if it's meant to though), can anyone else with the p14 pwm pst fan get the rpm down to 200rpm? 300rpm is surplus to my needs.


----------



## ciarlatano

Shenhua said:


> That graph it's from a "reviewer" that i would ignore completly.
> I can understand the p14 topping out premium fans, but the fractal one is complete garbage, and he has more reviews like this. He is also evaluating the looks of the fans and coolers on a scale, which is a completely subjective matter.
> 
> If you tell me the guy is on crack everytime he does a review, i would belive it.
> 
> Don't belive everything you see.


This has been said over and over here. This "reviewer" has "results" that never coincide with the results of known good reviewers. His "tests" consistently have "results" that favor the items with monetized links in his descriptions. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or "hardware scientist" to figure that out.


----------



## ciarlatano

Double post....this new interface really likes doing that.....


----------



## maltamonk

They have afilliated links for every product in the review, just like every modern review. So that's kinda a moot point.


----------



## doyll

maltamonk said:


> They have afilliated links for every product in the review, just like every modern review. So that's kinda a moot point.


Links don't change the fact reviewer publishes bogus data.


----------



## maltamonk

doyll said:


> Links don't change the fact reviewer publishes bogus data.


I specifically said "that point". I didn't say anything about the legitimacy of the review. Calm down and get your knickers out of a twist.


----------



## jayfkay

doyll said:


> Links don't change the fact reviewer publishes bogus data.


No, but you just said that his test results "coincide" with the products linked, when in fact, he links all of them, completely nullifying your theory that the results are skewed for personal gains.

So on what basis, then, is he publishing "bogus data", whatever that may mean?

As far as I'm concerned his testing method is suboptimal for he only uses a single fan in the entire system, but the results are interesting regardless and certainly not without merit.


----------



## maltamonk

That wasn't Doyll. You've mixed their reply up with ciarlatano's. (unless I missed something)


----------



## jayfkay

maltamonk said:


> That wasn't Doyll. You've mixed their reply up with ciarlatano's. (unless I missed something)


It was the hivemind.. but I am Tassadar.


----------



## devoker

I wanna use arctic p12 or f12 for pull in my push pull aio. Which one would be better? Is static pressure so important because I have a high static pressure fan for push? I thought maybe f12 might be better to balance airflow.


----------



## ciarlatano

devoker said:


> I wanna use arctic p12 or f12 for pull in my push pull aio. Which one would be better? Is static pressure so important because I have a high static pressure fan for push? I thought maybe f12 might be better to balance airflow.


You want the P12. The static pressure is important since you are moving air through the resistance of the rad. The F12 is an essentially useless fan unless in an open air application. The P12 is a significantly better fan for your application, and in almost any other application.


----------



## Hawkjoss

Agree with ciarlatano. I have p12 in push/pull on my 360 XE rad - the perform exceptionally well and quiet. The motor DOES have the hum in the range of 1000rpm, but this was beaten to death in this topic. 
i have darkside GT on my other rad which being 360 PE in push - i would say the perceivably GTs are moving more air then p12, but are “louder” then p12s at the same rpm range. By louder i mean they do have very little noise coming from the motor at all rpm ranges. I can pick it up because at idle all fans are at 600ish rpms and max rpm i am currently using when gaming are 900rpms, so the system is dead quiet and it is easier to hear noises from motor when its being the “loudest” part of the system.


----------



## devoker

I asked because the push fan is already breaking the resistance, should the pull fan help with steady airflow? This is probably much more complicated than that including some fluid dynamics.


----------



## Hawkjoss

devoker said:


> I asked because the push fan is already breaking the resistance, should the pull fan help with steady airflow? This is probably much more complicated than that including some fluid dynamics.


Just try to stick to the same fans with push/pull config. It’s not a must, but in that way you are making sure that both push/pull work within the same rpm, thus moving same amount of air. 
Having different fans “might” ( in huge caveats) cause parasitic resonance that will make the setup louder.
PS: i was running vardars as push and p12 in pull before - i tried to match them not by rpm but rather by cfm they are creating. With vardars my rig was sounding like a rocket which is about to take off. Now with p12 on push/pull it is dead quiet, even at higher rpms as before


----------



## doyll

devoker said:


> I wanna use arctic p12 or f12 for pull in my push pull aio. Which one would be better? Is static pressure so important because I have a high static pressure fan for push? I thought maybe f12 might be better to balance airflow.


All this high pressure fan vs airflow fan is advertising hype. 

Airflow is the result of high pressure air moving into lower pressure air. Fan pushes higher pressure air out, and this higher pressure air than move on into lower pressure air. The higher pressure is the more powerful it is, so higher pressure air will flow more air past obstructions than lower pressure air. 

As for using push /pull on your radiator, you will see little to no difference in cooling with push/pull vs just push, especially when at same noise level. 4x fans are 3dB louder than 2 fans, and if we speed up 2x push fans to same 3dB louder level as 4x we have the same cooling as with 4x fans at same noise level.

But if you want to waste your money buying more fans, use all p fans already suggested.


----------



## JackCY

You can stop the PWM fans, that's not a problem but they don't always start quietly in all orientations. At least the P12 PWM on my GPU when they are facing down right now don't like much starting up quietly. Facing to the side it was not a problem. That's why a lot of PSUs and GPUs have ball bearing fans, they are oriented intake down and the regular bearings don't always like that in some situation. In operation it's fine, only starting up is a bit of a short "RRRRR".

So if you plan to use fans facing intake down and start stop them it may be worth it to look for the ball bearing ones.

Oh well, if they ever crap out just gonna get the ball bearing ones then or put back on stock ball bearing fans as those are damn nice for sure but not as good cooling as 120 mm regular fans.


----------



## 2600ryzen

the p12 pwm pst co fans are ball bearings according to the arctic website


----------



## devoker

doyll said:


> All this high pressure fan vs airflow fan is advertising hype.
> 
> Airflow is the result of high pressure air moving into lower pressure air. Fan pushes higher pressure air out, and this higher pressure air than move on into lower pressure air. The higher pressure is the more powerful it is, so higher pressure air will flow more air past obstructions than lower pressure air.
> 
> As for using push /pull on your radiator, you will see little to no difference in cooling with push/pull vs just push, especially when at same noise level. 4x fans are 3dB louder than 2 fans, and if we speed up 2x push fans to same 3dB louder level as 4x we have the same cooling as with 4x fans at same noise level.
> 
> But if you want to waste your money buying more fans, use all p fans already suggested.


The reason I want to add another fan is beacuse I have a pretty crowded sff case (sg-13) and I have no place to add an exhaust fan. I want to add a pull fan to the AIO so I can increase ariflow inside the case and help gpu cooling.


----------



## ciarlatano

devoker said:


> The reason I want to add another fan is beacuse I have a pretty crowded sff case (sg-13) and I have no place to add an exhaust fan. I want to add a pull fan to the AIO so I can increase ariflow inside the case and help gpu cooling.


Which CLC do you have?


----------



## devoker

ciarlatano said:


> Which CLC do you have?


Silverstone pf 120


----------



## doyll

Silverstone PF120 has 28mm thick rad. Stacking fans most likely will not improve case airflow and lower GPU temps. 

Tell us what case, case fan setup, motherboard & RAM do you have and maybe we can help you get better cooling with less noise. Probably best to start your own thread instead of posting here in Arctic P thread.


----------



## devoker

doyll said:


> Silverstone PF120 has 28mm thick rad. Stacking fans most likely will not improve case airflow and lower GPU temps.
> 
> Tell us what case, case fan setup, motherboard & RAM do you have and maybe we can help you get better cooling with less noise. Probably best to start your own thread instead of posting here in Arctic P thread.


Sadly I have no other option left. I have an atx psu and can't replace with sfx because there is only a few choices available where I live and they are very expensive. I tries using psu fan down to exhaust but then the psu fan goes crazy because of all the heat (it is only 80+). Undervoltrd both cpu and gpu around 30% but this case has its airflow limitations. My only options are adding another fan and modifying the case which I can't do because I have no tools even if I have experience.

I have shared my setup here (now cpu block rotated 18 so it won't bend the gpu and psu fan up)
Silverstone Sugo SG13 Mini-ITX Owners Club


----------



## doyll

devoker said:


> Sadly I have no other option left. I have an atx psu and can't replace with sfx because there is only a few choices available where I live and they are very expensive. I tries using psu fan down to exhaust but then the psu fan goes crazy because of all the heat (it is only 80+). Undervoltrd both cpu and gpu around 30% but this case has its airflow limitations. My only options are adding another fan and modifying the case which I can't do because I have no tools even if I have experience.
> I will start a nee thread but I don't have much hopes because I believe I tried all the combinations.


Maybe (probably) true, but doesn't hurt to try.


----------



## RockGamer25

Hello, I was wondering if the arctic P12 or P14 are worth it if I want a quiet, reliable fan. The thing is, I cannot find their MTBF rating. From my understanding, FDB fans should last at least 100k hours, but I'm not sure. Any info on their reliability and QC failures?


----------



## Hawkjoss

RockGamer25 said:


> Hello, I was wondering if the arctic P12 or P14 are worth it if I want a quiet, reliable fan. The thing is, I cannot find their MTBF rating. From my understanding, FDB fans should last at least 100k hours, but I'm not sure. Any info on their reliability and QC failures?


I can't judge in terms of reliability as I am running them for not that long, but they are indeed quiet. They do have a CO (continuous operation) model which might suit your use case better.


----------



## RockGamer25

Hawkjoss said:


> I can't judge in terms of reliability as I am running them for not that long, but they are indeed quiet. They do have a CO (continuous operation) model which might suit your use case better.


Would the CO, with their double ball bearings, be more reliable? I still think the P12 PWM PST non CO are the better deal here, purely because the volume sold is way bigger so I can still study some, thanks for the info on the experience


----------



## 2600ryzen

I'm not sure but I think ball bearings are better if you mount your fan horizontally, I would just go for the normal fdb myself though. Ball bearing might be more reliable in that situation though or I don't know why arctic would make that version.


----------



## RockGamer25

2600ryzen said:


> I'm not sure but I think ball bearings are better if you mount your fan horizontally, I would just go for the normal fdb myself though. Ball bearing might be more reliable in that situation though or I don't know why arctic would make that version.


Honestly, I have no plan in mounting fans horizontally in a mid tower, just 3 fans in the case and 2 for gpu deshroud. Plus I cannot find a 5 pack for the CO version, so the FDB one is the obvious choice so long as someone who has had them for longer (think they launched 2 years ago? not that long) can chime in on any failures


----------



## 2600ryzen

I haven't heard of any problems with the Arctic p series besides the 1000rpm hum on the p12, and being they are FDB they should last a lot longer than non FDB fans. I think their performance up to 1000rpm is unmatched except by Noctua's newest fans.


----------



## RockGamer25

2600ryzen said:


> I haven't heard of any problems with the Arctic p series besides the 1000rpm hum on the p12, and being they are FDB they should last a lot longer than non FDB fans. I think their performance up to 1000rpm is unmatched except by Noctua's newest fans.


Yeah, I did my homework. Quite impressive fans and the 1000RPM hum doesn't bother me as I plan to run them under that anyway


----------



## Hawkjoss

RockGamer25 said:


> Yeah, I did my homework. Quite impressive fans and the 1000RPM hum doesn't bother me as I plan to run them under that anyway


i run then at 900 RPM - dead quiet and effective, no hum


----------



## RockGamer25

Hawkjoss said:


> i run then at 900 RPM - dead quiet and effective, no hum


Very good to know, looking into making a dead quiet air cooled setup by undervolting


----------



## rioja

I’ve got P14 PWM (non PST) and it says on the box that it’s Rev.2 (year is 2019)
What is the difference between Rev.2 and Rev.1 ?


----------



## 2600ryzen

I haven't heard of any difference, have you tried the fans yet? Mine wont go lower than 300rpm for some reason even though it says 200 min rpm. I replaced the 12v wire on a pwm extender with a 5v wire and now I can run the fans as low as 110rpm(they still spin slower than that but the tachometer stops working).


----------



## rioja

Not yet, but I have around 10 other fans and will run my home made shootout soon) Will measure airflow vs noise through a rad
So far I like P14 a lot, considering only build quality/personal impression I would put P14 on pair with ML140, eLoop, A14 Chromax. Only SW3 is better. Very impressive fan.

Also, do you think on CES 2021 (11-14 Jan) they can present some new versions of P14 (by colour in first) or I can already hunt of bunch of them (I need a dozen)

Here a pic with Rev.2


----------



## TeslaHUN

It seems P12 > P14 :


----------



## sultanofswing

In my setup with 16 P12 PWM PST's at right around 1200ish RPM is when I get the hum, I run them normally at 1300-1500.


----------



## 2600ryzen

TeslaHUN said:


> It seems P12 > P14 :


Looks like 3 x 120mm front is better than 2 x 140mm front in that setup, I have a matx case though so I think 2 x 140mm is definitely better for me. He doesn't seal the front panel where there's no fans meaning the 140mm x 2 are handicapped by being able to recycle their own intake air easier than the 120mm x 3 setup - there's big gaps above/below the 140mm fans so really easy for air to just circle around the fans.


----------



## Shenhua

2600ryzen said:


> Looks like 3 x 120mm front is better than 2 x 140mm front in that setup, I have a matx case though so I think 2 x 140mm is definitely better for me. He doesn't seal the front panel where there's no fans meaning the 140mm x 2 are handicapped by being able to recycle their own intake air easier than the 120mm x 3 setup - there's big gaps above/below the 140mm fans so really easy for air to just circle around the fans.


That case supports 3x140 in the front, mounting them on the inside.

That being said, the take away from the video is that generally 140mm are gonna be louder than 120mm and cases are not optimised for 140mm...

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## Dogzilla07

The takeaway from that video is, it proves some general things known and said for the past 20 years (same things linustechtips figured out in the video 4-5 years ago), however it is still lacking in advanced methodology/physics/fluid dynamics.

And most importantly, the optimal fan setup applies to that specific case, not cases in general, ...

Since he's started, he's getting better, more meticulous, adding/changing and adapting to new findings during his testing, I'd compare him to let's say GamersNexus from a few years ago before they started to perfect their methodology.

So I'll say the same I said for GN a few years ago: "Promising, admirable advancement in accuracy, however still not there yet. A channel to keep an eye on in the future"


----------



## Shenhua

Dogzilla07 said:


> The takeaway from that video is, it proves some general things known and said for the past 20 years (same things linustechtips figured out in the video 4-5 years ago), however it is still lacking in advanced methodology/physics/fluid dynamics.
> 
> And most importantly, the optimal fan setup applies to that specific case, not cases in general, ...
> 
> Since he's started, he's getting better, more meticulous, adding/changing and adapting to new findings during his testing, I'd compare him to let's say GamersNexus from a few years ago before they started to perfect their methodology.
> 
> So I'll say the same I said for GN a few years ago: "Promising, admirable advancement in accuracy, however still not there yet. A channel to keep an eye on in the future"


I wouldn't calling it specific to that very case. Meshify C has the exact same behaviour.

All "compact" full front mesh with perforated PSU cage will behave like that, and there's a lot of them.
The most recommended 70-100 bucks mesh cases are exactly like that.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

2600ryzen said:


> I haven't heard of any difference, have you tried the fans yet? Mine wont go lower than 300rpm for some reason even though it says 200 min rpm. I replaced the 12v wire on a pwm extender with a 5v wire and now I can run the fans as low as 110rpm(they still spin slower than that but the tachometer stops working).


Sounds like fan controls on motherboard are limiting limit idle speed (slowest 12v power pulse equals 300rpm). Lowering voltage to motor to 5v means same pulses rate is much lower speed. As you say, lower than tach can register. 



2600ryzen said:


> Looks like 3 x 120mm front is better than 2 x 140mm front in that setup, I have a matx case though so I think 2 x 140mm is definitely better for me. He doesn't seal the front panel where there's no fans meaning the 140mm x 2 are handicapped by being able to recycle their own intake air easier than the 120mm x 3 setup - there's big gaps above/below the 140mm fans so really easy for air to just circle around the fans.


Exactly!
This is compounded by not having enough rear exhaust area around GPU. I always remove PCIe back slot covers increasing exhaust area around GPU which increases front to back airflow around GPU so it's heated exhaust does notmove up into airflow going into CPU cooler .. because every degree warmer air is entering cooler becomes degrees hotter it will run (@ same fan speed and load).

I always remove all PCIe back slot covers, use 2x or 3x 140mm front intakes with all openings in front mounting panel not covered by fans covers (so air must flow thru case, not leak around fans going in circles). This setup with no exhaust fans means less fans needed so costs less. Less fans are also quieter. Some may argue more fans can move more air at lower speed so be quieter, but in my experiences 120mm almost always end up making as much or more noise at same airflow .. and cost more as well. 

If anyone is interested in more about how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow link below is to simple guide:








* * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan...


Got tired of posting instructions and guides over and over and over, so decided to start a thread for them. Please do not post unnecessarily as it will make it harder for others to find what they are looking for. This thread is not for opinions of the data or tutorials. If you have questions...




www.overclock.net


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> I wouldn't calling it specific to that very case. Meshify C has the exact same behaviour.
> 
> All "compact" full front mesh with perforated PSU cage will behave like that, and there's a lot of them.
> The most recommended 70-100 bucks mesh cases are exactly like that.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


How about we call it "specific to any case without optimized case airflow"? Because almost all cases have horrible airflow out of box. The back of most cases (towers included) don't have enough exhaust venting to accommodate their front intake potential. This is compounded by intake venting and holes not covered by intake fans not being covered/blocked so air front intakes push into case has to flow through case, not leak around them and go in circles. 

Problem is few if any case designers have much if any knowledge of airflow and how to optimize it. They are more interested in looks than performance. End result is long history of nice looking cases that don't flow air properly unless user modifies them by doing things like removing PCIe back slot covers, blocks opening in front fan mounting panel not covered by fans, sometimes even blocking all opening in front half of tower case 
, etc. to change case airflow design to give us the airflow we need for our systems.


----------



## Dogzilla07

@Shenhua It looks that way to an untrained eye and someone without loads of experience, but there are significant differences between even those similar cases (especially Meshify C and 500DX), that will produce wildly different results, not to mention, re-seating, re-pasting, and making sure fans perform the same when moving cases (or if using different fans). On top of making sure there aren't any differences in power/voltage, boost in the bios.

Just how much and where the bottom PSU shroud is perforated is gonna drastically change stuff depending on how the front 2x140mm are positioned. And this will show in smaller scale even without any of the optimisation @doyll mentions, but becomes drastic after it.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Shenhua said:


> That case supports 3x140 in the front, mounting them on the inside.


Hm i never heared about this . Do you have picture with 3x140mm fan on front in a 500DX ?


----------



## Shenhua

TeslaHUN said:


> Hm i never heared about this . Do you have picture with 3x140mm fan on front in a 500DX ?


You can belive me, or you can not. IDC.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## Shenhua

Dogzilla07 said:


> @Shenhua It looks that way to an untrained eye and someone without loads of experience, but there are significant differences between even those similar cases (especially Meshify C and 500DX), that will produce wildly different results, not to mention, re-seating, re-pasting, and making sure fans perform the same when moving cases (or if using different fans). On top of making sure there aren't any differences in power/voltage, boost in the bios.
> 
> Just how much and where the bottom PSU shroud is perforated is gonna drastically change stuff depending on how the front 2x140mm are positioned. And this will show in smaller scale even without any of the optimisation @doyll mentions, but becomes drastic after it.


I'm talking about behavior and patterns, not identical results. There's a very big difference between them.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> How about we call it "specific to any case without optimized case airflow"? Because almost all cases have horrible airflow out of box. The back of most cases (towers included) don't have enough exhaust venting to accommodate their front intake potential. This is compounded by intake venting and holes not covered by intake fans not being covered/blocked so air front intakes push into case has to flow through case, not leak around them and go in circles.
> 
> Problem is few if any case designers have much if any knowledge of airflow and how to optimize it. They are more interested in looks than performance. End result is long history of nice looking cases that don't flow air properly unless user modifies them by doing things like removing PCIe back slot covers, blocks opening in front fan mounting panel not covered by fans, sometimes even blocking all opening in front half of tower case
> , etc. to change case airflow design to give us the airflow we need for our systems.


Can we stop stretching the noddle? I'm talking behaviour and patterns.
Who said or implied anything about thermals out of the box. The whole video is about how to best configure the case, and how it behaves.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## TeslaHUN

Shenhua said:


> You can belive me, or you can not. IDC.


Sorry without proof i will not waste my money on 500DX ,since im looking for a midi tower case with mesh front +3x140 support .
.


----------



## 2600ryzen

The pattern is a wall of fans at the front is better, partly because I never see reviewers seal the case like doyll recommends to everyone here to do, partly because 3 x 120mm moves more air than 2 x 140mm anyway, but also because a wall of fans creates a seal between the front panel area and the inside of the case.


----------



## Dogzilla07

Shenhua said:


> I'm talking about behavior and patterns, not identical results. There's a very big difference between them.


Absolutely not, you're generalizing again, and comparing these two things absolutely as either black or white, which leads to wrong conclusions. There are no absolutes, in this case behaviour and patterns are one side of the coin, identical results another side, what's useful to us is the balance between the two.

Nobody needs completely identical results, but they need to be identical enough to a certain point. And there needs to be trust in how accurate those results are, and that requires removing variability/uncertainty.

On the other hand, behaviour and patterns on It's own as an intuitive subjective comparison is useless without a degree of certainty in that comparison. Unless you can express how certain you are in an intuitive comparison with %-percentages, intuition is worthless (u need to remove variability/uncertianty, same as with the results above ). Additionally in this case that would also require comparing and doing that for every part of a pc chassis.
The more experience and knowledge you have about the matter, your intuition gets better, your precision gets better and u can accurately compare stuff without exact calculations/#math.


----------



## Shenhua

Dogzilla07 said:


> Absolutely not, you're generalizing again, and comparing these two things absolutely as either black or white, which leads to wrong conclusions. There are no absolutes, in this case behaviour and patterns are one side of the coin, identical results another side, what's useful to us is the balance between the two.
> 
> Nobody needs completely identical results, but they need to be identical enough to a certain point. And there needs to be trust in how accurate those results are, and that requires removing variability/uncertainty.
> 
> On the other hand, behaviour and patterns on It's own as an intuitive subjective comparison is useless without a degree of certainty in that comparison. Unless you can express how certain you are in an intuitive comparison with %-percentages, intuition is worthless (u need to remove variability/uncertianty, same as with the results above ). Additionally in this case that would also require comparing and doing that for every part of a pc chassis.
> The more experience and knowledge you have about the matter, your intuition gets better, your precision gets better and u can accurately compare stuff without exact calculations/#math.


Behavior and patterns are not absolutes. They're variable.

And no, you don't need close or identical results to have the same behavior. Here's an example. Meshify C with 3 front fans, and p400a with 3 front fans.
Running fans low enough, say 800rpm, will show the very same behavior for the lower front intake, which is greatly improving GPU temps, but you can easily have 5-8°C temperature disparity between both cases, because the foam filter in the meshify C, it's quite restrictive at low rpm.

They're quite different cases as the meshify C has a worst perforated PSU shroud and it's a shorter case in length, which means the GPU has a lot less space to breathe, which means the GPU will get greater improvements in temps from having more airflow in the lower area, but it's because it has more room to improve.

None the less, the pattern it's the same. GPU temps will improve significantly.
For example the person i speak of in my next comment, first hand, in the 500dx, mounted 2x140 front and 140 rear, then because of my suggestion, he mounted the rear on the low front, and surprise to noone got a 7°C better GPU temps and 3°C better CPU temps, which is the same behaviour i experienced with the meshify C.......again, different cases, but similar characteristics....

And yes, I'm aware generalizing it's bad, but I'm generalizing within a bracket with certain conditions, which resonates with finding patterns.


----------



## Shenhua

TeslaHUN said:


> Sorry without proof i will not waste my money on 500DX ,since im looking for a midi tower case with mesh front +3x140 support .
> .


What interest would i have to tell you a lie. It's a forum.
I could go pick a picture from a forum im suscribed where some1 did it because of my suggestion, but I'm not gonna do it, because you're logic it's beyond me. GL.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## poah

TeslaHUN said:


> Sorry without proof i will not waste my money on 500DX ,since im looking for a midi tower case with mesh front +3x140 support .
> .


My phanteks P600s will take 3x140 fans at the front.


----------



## Shenhua

poah said:


> My phanteks P600s will take 3x140 fans at the front.


The 500dx official support it's only 3x120.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> Can we stop stretching the noddle? I'm talking behaviour and patterns.
> Who said or implied anything about thermals out of the box. The whole video is about how to best configure the case, and how it behaves.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


No, the whole video is about fan placement in a specific case. He does nothing else, no venting improvement, no closing off opening around intake fans, etc. 



2600ryzen said:


> The pattern is a wall of fans at the front is better, partly because I never see reviewers seal the case like doyll recommends to everyone here to do, partly because 3 x 120mm moves more air than 2 x 140mm anyway, but also because a wall of fans creates a seal between the front panel area and the inside of the case.


Your "wall of fans creates a seal between the front panel and inside of case" is not at all true. Do you have any idea how little pressure our case fans create? 2.73mm H2O is the difference in pressure of air at sea level and 10 feet above sea level. A fan rated 1.365mm H2O is about as much as the difference in air pressure on your feet and on your chest or neck (5feet of elevation difference at sea level. Fans create higher pressure air on their exhaust side that move toward any area of case, including any holes not blocked of around fans. This is the path of least resistance because the area in front of intake side of intake fans is lowest pressure area around case, so obviously is the path of least resistance for air to flow to, so obviously any openings in front fan mounting panel that are open will let that pressurized air from inside of case flow from inside of case around intake fans and end up going in circles instead of on through case. Keep in mind the flow of air coming out of a case fans is not a nice clean tube of airflow, but a spiraling cone of air. These intake fans create a slightly higher pressure inside of case than we have outside of case, and because air flows from higher pressure area to lower pressure area it leaks out all all around the case. 

I've built a lot of systems based on my suggestions and all cool well and quietly. If you had ever tired out what I suggest you would find out how well it works. Please test a system similar to what is in video with holes in front have of case not having intake fans in them blocked off and PCIe covers removed versus case setup as in video. If you do this you will see why I keep posting what I said here. 

No idea what you mean by not seeing reviews seal the case like I recommend. There are very very few if any reviewers who know anything about how airflow works .. or about most anything else. Many have extremely inflated egos too, and love to hear themselves talk .. often craving higher hit count.


----------



## 2600ryzen

doyll said:


> No, the whole video is about fan placement in a specific case. He does nothing else, no venting improvement, no closing off opening around intake fans, etc.
> 
> 
> Your "wall of fans creates a seal between the front panel and inside of case" is not at all true. Do you have any idea how little pressure our case fans create? 2.73mm H2O is the difference in pressure of air at sea level and 10 feet above sea level. A fan rated 1.365mm H2O is about as much as the difference in air pressure on your feet and on your chest or neck (5feet of elevation difference at sea level. Fans create higher pressure air on their exhaust side that move toward any area of case, including any holes not blocked of around fans. This is the path of least resistance because the area in front of intake side of intake fans is lowest pressure area around case, so obviously is the path of least resistance for air to flow to, so obviously any openings in front fan mounting panel that are open will let that pressurized air from inside of case flow from inside of case around intake fans and end up going in circles instead of on through case. Keep in mind the flow of air coming out of a case fans is not a nice clean tube of airflow, but a spiraling cone of air. These intake fans create a slightly higher pressure inside of case than we have outside of case, and because air flows from higher pressure area to lower pressure area it leaks out all all around the case.
> 
> I've built a lot of systems based on my suggestions and all cool well and quietly. If you had ever tired out what I suggest you would find out how well it works. Please test a system similar to what is in video with holes in front have of case not having intake fans in them blocked off and PCIe covers removed versus case setup as in video. If you do this you will see why I keep posting what I said here.
> 
> No idea what you mean by not seeing reviews seal the case like I recommend. There are very very few if any reviewers who know anything about how airflow works .. or about most anything else. Many have extremely inflated egos too, and love to hear themselves talk .. often craving higher hit count.


I know 3 x 120mm doesn't create a proper seal but it does block the front panel area off from the inside of the case a lot more than 2 x 140mm fans which is part of the reason I think in this review 2 x 140mm didn't do so well. I think it the reviewer tested with the front panel area sealed off from the inside of the case the difference would've been much smaller, though I think 3 x 120mm ultimately does work better in this 500dx case because it gives the gpu more air.


----------



## doyll

2600ryzen said:


> I know 3 x 120mm doesn't create a proper seal but it does block the front panel area off from the inside of the case a lot more than 2 x 140mm fans which is part of the reason I think in this review 2 x 140mm didn't do so well. I think it the reviewer tested with the front panel area sealed off from the inside of the case the difference would've been much smaller, though I think 3 x 120mm ultimately does work better in this 500dx case because it gives the gpu more air.


Quite possibly. But I've found removing PCIe back slot covers almost always lowers temps and thus noise levels .. obviously because the increased rear vent area around GPU flow more of it's heated air out back instead of GPU recycling it or it moving up into CPU intake raising it's operating air temp. 
Using top fans almost always increases CPU temps. 

REALLY wish case designers would learn at least the basics of case airflow .. that and include fans that will do a decent job. Would make a huge difference, especially with users who don't know much if anything about case airflow.


----------



## rioja

2600ryzen said:


> Mine wont go lower than 300rpm for some reason even though it says 200 min rpm.


Well I finally tried my P14 PWM connected to the motherboard R5E10 and here is what it detects










Minimum 254 rpm at 15% and max 1621 rpm at 100%
(probably at 10% it would go to 200 rpm but motherboard doesn’t want to go such low)

I also run quick comparison with Phanteks MP140 using an air flow meter (i e anemometer) and P14 gave air flow through the radiator HWLabs Nemesis GTX 15% higher than MP140 (both fans at their 100%) but it is by the cost of higher noise


----------



## 2600ryzen

rioja said:


> Well I finally tried my P14 PWM connected to the motherboard R5E10 and here is what it detects
> 
> View attachment 2472384
> 
> 
> Minimum 254 rpm at 15% and max 1621 rpm at 100%
> (probably at 10% it would go to 200 rpm but motherboard doesn’t want to go such low)
> 
> I also run quick comparison with Phanteks MP140 using an air flow meter (i e anemometer) and P14 gave air flow through the radiator HWLabs Nemesis GTX 15% higher than MP140 (both fans at their 100%) but it is by the cost of higher noise



Argus monitor lets you select anything down to 0% you should try that for fan testing, but my asus bios software let me select 0% on my arctic p14 pwm anyway but it was still 300rpm min. Going lower than 300rpm isn't really necessary for noise reduction anyway because 300rpm is already silent but it is useful for reducing dust buildup during idle.
I think you should do a test with the kaze flex 140mm attached to the rear of another fan like the p14 and see what/if any improvement there is.


----------



## rioja

2600ryzen said:


> Argus monitor lets you select anything down to 0%


Nope it doesn't work nice on my R5E10 (Nuvoton controller), I can't set value below 40% however I can set 0%
So I can set 0% and 40-100%
At 100% I have 1656 rpm and at 0% I have 370 rpm




















I also rerun fan tuning in Asus Fan Expert and got minimum speed 178 rpm at 11% but minimum controllable value is 18% 270 rpm











I can completely stop the fan choosing the Auto-Fan Stop option

Anyway 270 rpm and 1650 rpm are pretty useless coz first provides too little airflow and second too much noisy)


----------



## rioja

2600ryzen said:


> I think you should do a test with the kaze flex 140mm attached to the rear


You mean rear of pc case? Coz I interested only in radiator performance) And my case are too big with lot of openings everywhere anyway


----------



## 2600ryzen

rioja said:


> You mean rear of pc case? Coz I interested only in radiator performance) And my case are too big with lot of openings everywhere anyway


I mean 2 fans screwed into each other and I guess the radiator.


----------



## rioja

You mean push-pull? That's too much for me also as I already need 12 fans and can't switch to 24)

Btw I found a setting in Argus where can change minimum interval (was 40% by default) but after changing it all broken completely
Now at 100% I have only 550 rpm but with 61% can get 200 rpm, actually it can spin even slower but rpm show 0 although fan is still spinning










*Update *It was a bug. Now I can make the final conclusion. Asus Fan Xpert allows to set minimum 270 rpm at 18%, Argus allows minimum only 370 rpm although I can set even 5% in it, it all has smth to do with scale somehow


----------



## doyll

rioja said:


> Well I finally tried my P14 PWM connected to the motherboard R5E10 and here is what it detects
> 
> View attachment 2472384
> 
> 
> Minimum 254 rpm at 15% and max 1621 rpm at 100%
> (probably at 10% it would go to 200 rpm but motherboard doesn’t want to go such low)
> 
> I also run quick comparison with Phanteks MP140 using an air flow meter (i e anemometer) and P14 gave air flow through the radiator HWLabs Nemesis GTX 15% higher than MP140 (both fans at their 100%) but it is by the cost of higher noise


Interesting. Could you check performance on radiator with fans at same rpm? Say 1000rpm or similar. Then we would know performance at a speed we are likely to use instead of just full speed. 
Again, thanks for you work!


----------



## rioja

doyll said:


> Could you check performance on radiator with fans at same rpm?


Yes I could, it’s actually what I was intending to do but I have encountered with issue which I tried to explain in this post
Fans!!!! The most complete and comprehensive array of...
The problem is that my measuring equipment has lower threshold 60 FPM and when a fan is at low rpm then air flow is just not enough to register it, if use it on open air and having a vane 6 ft from the fan
For example, MP140 at 840 rpm can’t be measured, I need at least 1000 rpm
So I’m thinking whether I need an air duct or not


----------



## doyll

rioja said:


> Yes I could, it’s actually what I was intending to do but I have encountered with issue which I tried to explain in this post
> Fans!!!! The most complete and comprehensive array of...
> The problem is that my measuring equipment has lower threshold 60 FPM and when a fan is at low rpm then air flow is just not enough to register it, if use it on open air and having a vane 6 ft from the fan
> For example, MP140 at 840 rpm can’t be measured, I need at least 1000 rpm
> So I’m thinking whether I need an air duct or not


Again, Thermalbench measures airflow at 6 inches from from fan, not 6 feet. Not sure if that is 6" from fan or from surface of radiator fan is pushing air into. Airflow from a fan at 6 feet is very slow if any at all. Try measuring at 6 inches. Ideal would be to measure a fan VSG (Thermalbench) tested. Hopefully your reading with be similar if not the same. Then we can compare your results to his.


----------



## TeslaHUN

I made some home testing ,using cheap VoltCraft anemometer .Its not professional test ,just for myself ,maybe its intresting to others too.
I like my fans run at max 1200 rpm, so i made the test on that rpm
Was wondering if i wasted my money on the "best exhaust airflow" fan /Noctua NF S12A/ or it was worth to buy. I can't measure sound , but to my ear P12 is more quiet on 1200 (Noctua's max rpm)





So Noctua is a bit better for exhaust (i cut out my fan grills on the rear) ,and a bit louder . But I can't justify the 5x price difference


----------



## ciarlatano

TeslaHUN said:


> I made some home testing ,using cheap VoltCraft anemometer .Its not professional test ,just for myself ,maybe its intresting to others too.
> I like my fans run at max 1200 rpm, so i made the test on that rpm
> Was wondering if i wasted my money on the "best exhaust airflow" fan /Noctua NF S12A/ or it was worth to buy. I can't measure sound , but to my ear P12 is more quiet on 1200 (Noctua's max rpm)
> 
> So Noctua is a bit better for exhaust (i cut out my fan grills on the rear) ,and a bit louder . But I can't justify the 5x price difference


I've personally never had good results from an NF-S12A. They have really insufficient static pressure and wilt with even a fan grill. I would take a P12 over them for any in-build application, and that isn't even taking cost into account.


----------



## rioja

TeslaHUN said:


> cheap VoltCraft anemometer


VOLTCRAFT AN-10 Anemometer, 0.3 up to 30 m/s, accuracy +/-(5%+5)
Low threshold is very good actually, much better than Thermalbench used in his review. Only accuracy not good but still ok since you have measurement error came more from the methodic (without chamber or tube) than from the accuracy of anemometer



TeslaHUN said:


> I can't measure sound


You can install Decibel X app to your smatrphone, it is one of the best app for ios/android and has trial period for subscription. At least you'll be able to measure the noise more or less accurately

As for results, P12 I would say 1.8-1.85 m/s at 1200 rpm, S12 2.2 m/s and at 1100 rpm so at the same rpm Noctua has performance by 20-25% higher


----------



## ciarlatano

rioja said:


> You can install Decibel X app to your smatrphone, it is one of the best app for ios/android and has trial period for subscription. At least you'll be able to measure the noise more or less accurately


While it may not necessarily be accurate, it will give you a fair comparison, which would be the important info when comparing two fans.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> I made some home testing ,using cheap VoltCraft anemometer .Its not professional test ,just for myself ,maybe its intresting to others too.
> I like my fans run at max 1200 rpm, so i made the test on that rpm
> Was wondering if i wasted my money on the "best exhaust airflow" fan /Noctua NF S12A/ or it was worth to buy. I can't measure sound , but to my ear P12 is more quiet on 1200 (Noctua's max rpm)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Noctua is a bit better for exhaust (i cut out my fan grills on the rear) ,and a bit louder . But I can't justify the 5x price difference


Yes, probably wasting money. I build several systems a month and haven't used an exhaust fan in so long I can't remember when I last did.

To me any fan that doesn't have ability to overcome resistance of grill &/or filter &/or radiator fins is worthless. This is because we rarely need to generate airflow where there is not resistance IE grill, filter, radiator, etc. Besides, if fan works well on grill, filter, etc it will work well them. 

I think Noctua best 120mm is NF-A12x25.


----------



## JackCY

Yeah the Nidec clone, but they are so damn pricey and still haven't released a 140mm version did they?

So far all good here on my 7 Arctic fans. Only thing I've retired is the Thermalright TY-147A and replaced with some left over Scythe fan, maybe it's quieter now, who knows, it's overall quiet anyway.


----------



## Shenhua

JackCY said:


> Yeah the Nidec clone, but they are so damn pricey and still haven't released a 140mm version did they?
> 
> So far all good here on my 7 Arctic fans. Only thing I've retired is the Thermalright TY-147A and replaced with some left over Scythe fan, maybe it's quieter now, who knows, it's overall quiet anyway.


Are you using any antivibrating rubber padding with them.

Some ppl say that's the reason they resonate at some speeds, some ppl say it isn't.

By now, we should know why they do that sound... and only in certain RPM ranges.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## rioja

Shenhua said:


> and only in certain RPM ranges


120 or 140? At which range exactly?
So far the only noise issue I found with my P14 is quite loud hum at high speed but at least there is no motor ticking


----------



## 2600ryzen

rioja said:


> 120 or 140? At which range exactly?
> So far the only noise issue I found with my P14 is quite loud hum at high speed but at least there is no motor ticking


I've heard of the p12's having bearings hum at around 900-1100rpm depending on the fan, I haven't noticed any hum on the p14 but I haven't really spun them up faster than 1000rpm once or twice.


----------



## D-EJ915

It's possible as well it is a voltage control vs pwm thing too, I use my PWM PST P14s on voltage control and I do get a noise at like 1100 rpm or so.


----------



## JackCY

Shenhua said:


> Are you using any antivibrating rubber padding with them.
> 
> Some ppl say that's the reason they resonate at some speeds, some ppl say it isn't.
> 
> By now, we should know why they do that sound... and only in certain RPM ranges.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


Hard mounted all of the fans, the Arctics don't vibrate for me so I removed the hassle of using flexible mounts.

As far as I know everything that rotates or has some repetitive motion will resonate at some frequency.
Most people would probably not even notice the resonance on these fans I think which is 1 very narrow RPM range (50 RPM or something around that). But because someone on YouTube overboosts their microphone to record it at all now everyone knows about it haha. But has no idea how loud it actually is.

Good luck noticing it in regular use. I didn't notice it before and all my fans are on dynamic temperature control. And I do notice hum from old fan, or higher pitched sound from old different fan I swapped, or neighbor on other side of apartment building running some dryer or who knows what that hums all the way to my room. I ain't deaf and my PC is setup to run as quiet as possible while keeping cool.

The P12 PWM do run over the resonance speed since they are on the GPU, the P14 PWM, I don't think they do unless I torture the CPU.

You can always get 1 fan, try it out yourself and then decide if you want to buy more or not. Or buy all that you need and if you don't like them return them, depends on your country's laws.


----------



## rioja

TeslaHUN said:


> I made some home testing ,using cheap VoltCraft anemometer


Just some note regarding the measurement, such method of measuring of Noctua maybe not correct due to whirlpool from it so that it shows higher numbers than real
So it maybe not even better so much than Arctic

It was tried to be explained here on the example of S12 Noctua fan








A New Way of Testing Fan Airflow - Silent PC Review


In spite of our best efforts, some SPCR readers found fault with a few of the airflow measurements in our recent fan roundups. We revisited the airflow metrology. After much experimentation and some test methods that were rejected, we settled on a new way of assessing fan airflow under some load...




silentpcreview.com


----------



## doyll

rioja said:


> Just some note regarding the measurement, such method of measuring of Noctua maybe not correct due to whirlpool from it so that it shows higher numbers than real
> So it maybe not even better so much than Arctic
> 
> It was tried to be explained here on the example of S12 Noctua fan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A New Way of Testing Fan Airflow - Silent PC Review
> 
> 
> In spite of our best efforts, some SPCR readers found fault with a few of the airflow measurements in our recent fan roundups. We revisited the airflow metrology. After much experimentation and some test methods that were rejected, we settled on a new way of assessing fan airflow under some load...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> silentpcreview.com


I've had good luck using 2 layers of wire mesh in middle of 1 meter long 8 inch (200mm) plastic duct with fan mount on one end and hot-wire anemometer to airflow on other. Corsair made similar using 6" (150mm) tube.


----------



## rioja

doyll said:


> I've had good luck using 2 layers of wire mesh in middle of 1 meter long 8 inch (200mm) plastic duct with fan mount on one end and hot-wire anemometer to airflow on other. Corsair made similar using 6" (150mm) tube.


Yep I also tried practically many different configurations even got additionally hot wire anemometer lol and to the end came to the conclusion that a plastic vent tube is the best option with the measurement point in the center by section and in the middle by length (so that it was classic 2-3 diameters before and 2-3 after the measure point)
Also, regarding those wire meshes they can restrict the flow somehow (especially if they are home made) and in order to measure without them but still to avoid a turbulence a fan can be used as intake not exhaust
So that overall schema will be as
-> air entrance -> 0.5 m tube -> measurement point -> 0.5 m tube -> fan -> radiator
Hope it will work)


----------



## doyll

rioja said:


> Yep I also tried practically many different configurations even got additionally hot wire anemometer lol and to the end came to the conclusion that a plastic vent tube is the best option with the measurement point in the center by section and in the middle by length (so that it was classic 2-3 diameters before and 2-3 after the measure point)
> Also, regarding those wire meshes they can restrict the flow somehow (especially if they are home made) and in order to measure without them but still to avoid a turbulence a fan can be used as intake not exhaust
> So that overall schema will be as
> -> air entrance -> 0.5 m tube -> measurement point -> 0.5 m tube -> fan -> radiator
> Hope it will work)


A radiator does a pretty good job of straightening airflow. Obviously the problem is the resistance radiator has on airflow. Thermalbench fan testing was using a radiator to straighten airflow and provide flow resistance commonly encountered in our systems .. be they on radiator, behind grill &/or filter, or on cooler.


----------



## rioja

doyll said:


> A radiator does a pretty good job of straightening airflow. Obviously the problem is the resistance radiator has on airflow. Thermalbench fan testing was using a radiator to straighten airflow and provide flow resistance commonly encountered in our systems .. be they on radiator, behind grill &/or filter, or on cooler.


I would highlight 2 points regarding it
First, it's interesting to measure the airflow with zero restriction and compare numbers to factory specs thus no mesh can be used in such case (I wonder how much corsair meshes reduce the flow in their wind tunnel)
And then second, to check which restriction gives a radiator along i.e. again no meshes applicable
Thermalbench used low air restrictive radiator MCR140QP (12 fpi, 3 cm depth) and I'm not sure how much it straighten the flow actually, I'm even not sure did he put the rad before or after a fan. And also how he managed to measure such a low flow. In my case with Nemesis GTX (16 fpi, 5.6 cm) the lowest flow I could catch with my wing anemometer was at nearly 650-700 rpm using TY147 fan and it was 0.3 m/s (11 CFM) but still result was not reliable actually so I decided to upgrade to how wire)


----------



## doyll

rioja said:


> I would highlight 2 points regarding it
> First, it's interesting to measure the airflow with zero restriction and compare numbers to factory specs thus no mesh can be used in such case (I wonder how much corsair meshes reduce the flow in their wind tunnel)
> And then second, to check which restriction gives a radiator along i.e. again no meshes applicable
> Thermalbench used low air restrictive radiator MCR140QP (12 fpi, 3 cm depth) and I'm not sure how much it straighten the flow actually, I'm even not sure did he put the rad before or after a fan. And also how he managed to measure such a low flow. In my case with Nemesis GTX (16 fpi, 5.6 cm) the lowest flow I could catch with my wing anemometer was at nearly 650-700 rpm using TY147 fan and it was 0.3 m/s (11 CFM) but still result was not reliable actually so I decided to upgrade to how wire)


I agree, but I don't really care if my test results are same as industry. While they do use very expensive airflow test equipment, they often manipulate that equipment to give better results. 
Example: setting air pressure on exhaust side of fan is same as intake side. 
This is a condition impossible to re-create in actual use. 

Thermalbench mounted fan on radiator. 

No idea about his airflow readings vs yours, sorry.

Look forward to seeing what how hot-wire works out for you.


----------



## rioja

doyll said:


> Look forward to seeing what how hot-wire works out for you.


Well I‘ve got my new toy and to say that I impressed is to say nothing
This is Testo 405i





testo 405i thermal anemometer with smartphone operation


The testo 405i thermal anemometer with smartphone operation is ideal for measuring air velocity, temperature and volume flow in ventilation ducts.




www.testo.com




and everything in it is just top notch - from package to build quality to incredible possibilities

Even whole concept is very interesting and modern - it has no display and controls but instead you connect it via Bluetooth to iPad/iPhone/Android and read numbers in real time

Accuracy and sensitivity is just like hot wire can provide plus you have the app which can build plots, record numbers, calculate real average etc

And now to the real measurements, first I took Arctic P14 PWM fan and measured the flow at the exhaust of clean tube (supply air, no any restrictions like meshes etc) after a 1m distance

Max RPM 1770, 61.5 CFM average (factory spec is 72 CFM at 1700)










Min RPM 350, 12.3 CFM










Then added the radiator - HW Labs Nemesis GTX - in push config










Now Max RPM is only 1630 and flow is 51.2 CFM










And finally - this is what all of this was for - the minimum air flow after the rad, now min rpm is 280 RPM but flow is still measurable, so unbelievably, and it’s just a tiny 3.5 CFM










That’s hot wire madness makes impossible things possible










Finally equipments and method are close to the expected and I can start my ultimate 140mm radiator fan shootout soon)










I also wanted to get SLM meter from the same Testo company but they cost just astronomically so I will use a cheap but good simple Chinese one


----------



## doyll

rioja said:


> Well I‘ve got my new toy and to say that I impressed is to say nothing
> This is Testo 405i
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> testo 405i thermal anemometer with smartphone operation
> 
> 
> The testo 405i thermal anemometer with smartphone operation is ideal for measuring air velocity, temperature and volume flow in ventilation ducts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.testo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and everything in it is just top notch - from package to build quality to incredible possibilities
> 
> Even whole concept is very interesting and modern - it has no display and controls but instead you connect it via Bluetooth to iPad/iPhone/Android and read numbers in real time
> 
> Accuracy and sensitivity is just like hot wire can provide plus you have the app which can build plots, record numbers, calculate real average etc
> 
> And now to the real measurements, first I took Arctic P14 PWM fan and measured the flow at the exhaust of clean tube (supply air, no any restrictions like meshes etc) after a 1m distance
> 
> Max RPM 1770, 61.5 CFM average (factory spec is 72 CFM at 1700)
> 
> Min RPM 350, 12.3 CFM
> 
> Then added the radiator - HW Labs Nemesis GTX - in push config
> 
> Now Max RPM is only 1630 and flow is 51.2 CFM
> 
> And finally - this is what all of this was for - the minimum air flow after the rad, now min rpm is 280 RPM but flow is still measurable, so unbelievably, and it’s just a tiny 3.5 CFM
> 
> That’s hot wire madness makes impossible things possible
> 
> Finally equipments and method are close to the expected and I can start my ultimate 140mm radiator fan shootout soon)
> 
> I also wanted to get SLM meter from the same Testo company but they cost just astronomically so I will use a cheap but good simple Chinese one


Nice unit!

Maybe we should start a thread for discussing fan airflow test stations. I'll include some info here, but hate to keep derailing Arctic P series fan thread. 


Here is pic of Corsiar test unit with 120mm fan:









One I made is 8"/200mm tube instead of 6"/152mm. My thinking is airflow of 140mm fan into 152mm would create much surface friction than 120mm fan and this would reduce airflow of 140mm fans more than 120mm fan in 152mm tube. I think 152mm tube with 120mm fan is okay, but with 140mm fan it is just too close to same diameter as fan. I think bigger 200mm tube reduces (possibly eliminates) this surface friction difference problem .. plus difference in price of tube and fittings was only a few dollars. 

Corsair unit mesh appears to be wires about 1.6mm in diameter with 11.1mm spacing. I think I've found a source of some at reasonable cost to fit and test.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Maybe we should start a thread for discussing fan airflow test stations. I'll include some info here, but hate to keep derailing Arctic P series fan thread.


Not sure whether saying "turnabout is fair play" or "the irony is killing me" is more appropriate......


----------



## rioja

doyll said:


> Maybe we should start a thread for discussing fan airflow test stations. I'll include some info here, but hate to keep derailing Arctic P series fan thread.


Yep it may be a good idea, there are lot of things to discuss actually not directly related to Arctic P fan)
I have several practical notes and links to add

And with P fan itself it’s all more or less clear - this a good fan and it started to sound much better being mounted on a radiator - but test benches is different topic and regarding comparison with other fans I think I will publish it in separate topic

I rather also agree that using 200mm tube could be a better option than 150


----------



## TeslaHUN

I wonder why the 3 pin 5pack is avaible everywhere and it cost half compared the 5pack pwm . Is there any difference between 3 pin and 4pin pwm ? I can buy 10x 3pin instead of 5 pwm .


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> I wonder why the 3 pin 5pack is avaible everywhere and it cost half compared the 5pack pwm . Is there any difference between 3 pin and 4pin pwm ? I can buy 10x 3pin instead of 5 pwm .


Probably supply and demand. 
More of us want PWM fans, so they sell way more PWM than variable voltage, so to move variable voltage stock they sell them at lower price.


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> Probably supply and demand.
> More of us want PWM fans, so they sell way more PWM than variable voltage, so to move variable voltage stock they sell them at lower price.


Yes i know most ppl want PWM but why ? Is it any better then the DC variant ?


----------



## ciarlatano

TeslaHUN said:


> Yes i know most ppl want PWM but why ? Is it any better then the DC variant ?



DC FanPWM Fan3-pin fan4-pin fanVoltage controlPWM controlThe supply voltage is varied for speed controlThe supply voltage is constant throughout the operation, the PWM signal duty cycle controls fan speedPrecise speed control is difficultSeamless speed control Limited in reducing speed below that which corresponds to the minimum threshold voltageThe minimum speed achieved can be below DC fansSpeed can be lowered up to 40% of the rated speedThe lowest speed can be less than 20% of the rated speedPossibility of motor stalling below the minimum threshold voltageNo chance of motor stallingCommonly used as chassis fans with low power consumptionCommonly used as a CPU cooler with higher power consumption


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Yes i know most ppl want PWM but why ? Is it any better then the DC variant ?


I don't think so. While PWM controlled motors have more torque at lower speeds than variable voltage, on our fans this really doesn't make much if any difference. Some motherboard fan software will allow fans to run slower on one or the other, so sometime users run their PWM fans on variable voltage because they can run them slower. Sometimes PWM will idle fans at lower speeds. 

PWM control uses less energy by pulsing 12v power instead of using hardware to lower the voltage (lowering voltage generates heat)., so PWM is more energy efficient, but the difference in electricity cost in a year probably woudn't buy a single can of soda.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> DC FanPWM Fan3-pin fan4-pin fanVoltage controlPWM controlThe supply voltage is varied for speed controlThe supply voltage is constant throughout the operation, the PWM signal duty cycle controls fan speedPrecise speed control is difficultSeamless speed controlLimited in reducing speed below that which corresponds to the minimum threshold voltageThe minimum speed achieved can be below DC fansSpeed can be lowered up to 40% of the rated speedThe lowest speed can be less than 20% of the rated speedPossibility of motor stalling below the minimum threshold voltageNo chance of motor stallingCommonly used as chassis fans with low power consumptionCommonly used as a CPU cooler with higher power consumption


Sorry but common sense shows above to be quite misleading. "Speed can be lowered up to 40% of rated speed" for variable voltage fans is obviously not true. Most of us have used variable voltage powered fans idle at speeds way below 40% of maximum speed. Example is Thermalbench testing of be quiet! Silent Wings 140mm PWM high speed 2200rpm fans idle down to almost 500rpm on variable voltage.


----------



## TeslaHUN

I was bored ,so i tested wich of my dust filter is better in terms of airflow.Nothing scientific ,just some home made quick test. Silverstone nylon vs Akasa aluminium . To my eyes they have equal mesh density . Maybe its intresting to somebody else too :

Arctic P12 pwm vs dust filter(s) airflow test
I will use the aluminium one , its barely block any airflow ,so why not.


----------



## Melcar

So they have 15mm version of the P12 fans now it seems. I wonder how those stack up to the NF-A12x15mm? Quoted stats are 41.1cfm and 1.45mm/H2O at 2100 rpm.

In fact, I have seen a few other brands come up with 15mm slim fans now. Yesterday I saw Thermalrigh has a couple (RGB versions even). Scythe as well. Those would make great GPU fans.


----------



## Raul-7

Are the Arctic BioniX P120 superior to the P12?


----------



## ciarlatano

Raul-7 said:


> Are the Arctic BioniX P120 superior to the P12?


Performance will be the same at like speeds. The BionX has a higher max speed and some aesthetic adds to the frame.


----------



## poah

Raul-7 said:


> Are the Arctic BioniX P120 superior to the P12?


slightly thicker fan but not worth the extra cash over the P12.


----------



## doyll

Raul-7 said:


> Are the Arctic BioniX P120 superior to the P12?


Both use same impeller 
BioniX P120 is 2100rpm max speed with vibration pads on housing corners and PST (PWM Sharing Technology) cable connections 
P12 is 1800rpm max speed with just plastic housing corners.
Anyone who knows much about vibration dampening knows most fan 'vibration dampening' on housign corners is more joke then function.


----------



## DrBrogbo

Heh, it's cool that there's a little community here built around these fans. 

I was looking to replace a failing case fan a while back and randomly stumbled across the 5-pack of the PWM PST fans.

I'm glad I'm not crazy in thinking that for the price and noise, they move a lot of air. Especially since when I bought them, the 5-pack was around the price of a single high-end Noctua.


----------



## IANVS

Perhaps not the best thread to ask this but...what would be a good replacement for the P12 on the Liquid Freezer II 120? It moves a lot of air but the hum is really audible at 1000-1200 RPM (my case is all aluminium and glass and close to me).
Right now, it's in push mode, serving as exhaust, but that may change, I'll prolly experiment with different setups because the airflow in this case (Raijintek Thetis) is wonky.

Anyway, I'm looking for a silent fan that can replace the P12 well, meaning not having to dance around that RPM area to avoid noise, while still delivering enough static pressure for the 38mm thick rad with 14 FPI.
The alternatives available to me are Phanteks F120MP (pretty silent, not the highest SP but behaves well on rads), NB-eLoop B12-P (good but issues in pull) and TT ToughFan 12 (don't know how it behaves in different RPM ranges). Silent WIngs 3 is above of what I'd like to pay...


----------



## ciarlatano

IANVS said:


> Perhaps not the best thread to ask this but...what would be a good replacement for the P12 on the Liquid Freezer II 120? It moves a lot of air but the hum is really audible at 1000-1200 RPM (my case is all aluminium and glass and close to me).
> Right now, it's in push mode, serving as exhaust, but that may change, I'll prolly experiment with different setups because the airflow in this case (Raijintek Thetis) is wonky.
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking for a silent fan that can replace the P12 well, meaning not having to dance around that RPM area to avoid noise, while still delivering enough static pressure for the 38mm thick rad with 14 FPI.
> The alternatives available to me are Phanteks F120MP (pretty silent, not the highest SP but behaves well on rads), NB-eLoop B12-P (good but issues in pull) and TT ToughFan 12 (don't know how it behaves in different RPM ranges). Silent WIngs 3 is above of what I'd like to pay...


Of those three, I have used two since I won't support Tt. The eLoops do perform better than the F120MP, and have a pleasant sound signature provided you keep them in push with nothing impeding on the intake side of the fan. The F120MP are a really nice sounding fan with good performance and will be more versatile than the eLoop.

You really can't go wrong with either of these. The performance difference is going to be really minimal, a couple of degrees at most. The question comes down to whether you value the couple of degrees or versatility more.


----------



## IANVS

ciarlatano said:


> Of those three, I have used two since I won't support Tt. The eLoops do perform better than the F120MP, and have a pleasant sound signature provided you keep them in push with nothing impeding on the intake side of the fan. The F120MP are a really nice sounding fan with good performance and will be more versatile than the eLoop.
> 
> You really can't go wrong with either of these. The performance difference is going to be really minimal, a couple of degrees at most. The question comes down to whether you value the couple of degrees or versatility more.


Well, since I might do some reversing of airflow and I don't know what will my final setup be yet, eLoop might be skipped. I'm leaning towards TT because the price difference is not big, and I might get a couple of F120MPs as case fans...

Thank you for the feedback.


----------



## XtrathiccFan

I just bought two P14 to replace A15. They were the worst fans I have ever bought.(previous worst fan is Noctua F12 tied with Cooler master masterfan pro)
The motor of P14 whines at 1000, 1300, and 1600 rpm, which makes them totally unusable.
You think Noctua fans are overrated? try Arctic P series fans lol


----------



## IANVS

Arctics are dirt cheap and not all of them has issues (and certainly not at 3 RPM spots). 
In fact, I dare you to find a better fan at their price (6€ a piece if you buy a 5-pack, where I live).


----------



## ciarlatano

IANVS said:


> Arctics are dirt cheap and not all of them has issues (and certainly not at 3 RPM spots).
> In fact, I dare you to find a better fan at their price (6€ a piece if you buy a 5-pack, where I live).


He doesn't like the fans, he didn't slap your mother. No need to get so defensive. Between the Arctic P, EK and CLC Kool Aid crews, it's a bit much with this.


----------



## IANVS

Why would I be defensive, he's not after my life or vice versa...The man seems like he's overreacting, that's all. I know these fans have issues, I own them, but he made them look like the worst garbage. If they had Noctua or Be Quiet prices, such rant would be understandable, but for the money they cost his it was really over the top...like I said, if he can find better fans for 6-7€, then I want them too, lol...

I'm not a fan (sic) of their 1000 RPM noise either and I plan to replace them (I'm too lazy to experiment and dance around it) but I also can't call them bad, because it's a straight up lie. Again, one has to look at them from the price/performance perspective, that's where their fame comes from...


----------



## T.Sharp

I was lured by low price and good reviews of the P12’s. Had 3 of them as case exhaust in a Lian Li 205. The two top fans had a really annoying resonance / vibration at med-high RPM. 

Just switched them out for 2 Noctua NF-P14s 1500 RPM on the top and 1 NF-P12 1700RPM for the rear. Putting my hand over the exhaust (a pretty restrictive grating imo), I can tell these fans move considerably more air across the RPM range. No vibration or resonance issues now. Definitely louder than the Arctic fans, but it's the sound of moving air at least.

If they could balance the P12s as well as the cheap Noctua fans, they would be much better. Although the blade design doesn't seem to lend itself to good airflow. The very low angle on the leading edge restricts the ability to scoop fresh air. Good way to keep a fan quiet and still have acceptable pressure though.


----------



## jura11

For money P12 fans are not bad at all, running them on MO-ra3 360mm radiator and running them on two SR-2 360MM radiators and they perform great, tried several fans on my radiators and for money you can hardly find better fans 

I can't hear the hum from them and I'm running them at 700-850RM 

Recently I replaced my PH-F140SP fans for TY-143 with cable ties mod hahaha and man at 1200RPM literally I can't hear them and on other hand Phanteks PH-F140SP been so noisy anove 1000RPM 

Hope this helps 

Thanks, Jura


----------



## Hawkjoss

Have 6 p12s running on my 360 rad in push/pull. Happy with the performance. They do have a “microwave” hum around 950-1050 rpms - i avoid running those speeds. 
on another rad i have GTs and i like their sound profile better, and it seems they move more air. 
however, not willing to shill more money for another fans (yet). Will wait on a12x25 in black, maybe then.


----------



## Dogzilla07

Installed 5 in a friend's build, fixed their RPM at around 1150-1250 RPM (depending on fan, position), no resonance, no hum, he has no complaints.

@Hawkjoss When I was testing them still, I had two GTs running at 1000RPM and 1200RPM, and I liked the P12 sound profile more.


----------



## Hawkjoss

Dogzilla07 said:


> Installed 5 in a friend's build, fixed their RPM at around 1150-1250 RPM (depending on fan, position), no resonance, no hum, he has no complaints.
> 
> @Hawkjoss When I was testing them still, I had two GTs running at 1000RPM and 1200RPM, and I liked the P12 sound profile more.


I also run them at 1500-1200 under load, they have no hum at that range.


----------



## Slaughtahouse

Hi all,

I'm looking to replace the three (3), 3 pin Corsair SP120 Silent fans I have on my radiator (360mm rad). I'm looking for PWM fans.

I would like to achieve the best possible performance within a tight / low level of acoustics. For reference, I usually don't run my fans Corsair AP120 fans above 1200 RPM.

I only need 3 fans but most "good" fans cost anywhere from 20 to 30$ CAD today, per fan! Note: I only have 4 fans installed in my PC at this time. 3 as intake (rad) and one exhaust (top of case).

I found the 5-pack for 75$ CAD and each PWM has its own splitter, which is awesome. Is there any reason why I wouldn't choose these fans? Alternatively, could I better spend $75 CAD on three (3) other PWM fans?



https://www.amazon.ca/Arctic-ACFAN00137A-Value-Pack-Pressure-Optimized/dp/B07HC782D5/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=arctic%2Bp12%2Bpwm&qid=1617906896&sr=8-1&th=1



Thoughts or concerns? Should I invest my money elsewhere considering I don't "need" extra fans? Individually they're 20$.

Alternatively, I could get Noctua NF-P12 redux 1700 PWM (individually at 17$). 



https://www.amazon.ca/redux-1700-high-Performance-heatsinks-Award-Winning-Affordable/dp/B07CG2PGY6/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=pwm+radiator+fan&qid=1617907438&sr=8-6



Any insights would be appreciated


----------



## Melcar

I wouldn't spend that much for the redux fans, but that's just me.
To be honest, most current decently made fans perform about the same in the 1000rpm range, some a bit louder than others. From reviews I have seen on several fans, the differences start to pop up in the 1200-1600rpm range. If you plan to run the fans at 1200rpm or lower just get any of the top rated fans that are friendly to your wallet. The P12/P14s seem to have some slight QC issues and I'm not surprised given how cheap the are, so it's a bit of a gamble.
Some good "cheap" fans for radiators/heatsinks are the PH-F120MPs and the ML120s (two pack). I have no tested the new Thermalright 12cm fans, but they seem decently priced (and surprisingly available).


----------



## Slaughtahouse

Melcar said:


> I wouldn't spend that much for the redux fans, but that's just me.
> To be honest, most current decently made fans perform about the same in the 1000rpm range, some a bit louder than others. From reviews I have seen on several fans, the differences start to pop up in the 1200-1600rpm range. If you plan to run the fans at 1200rpm or lower just get any of the top rated fans that are friendly to your wallet. The P12/P14s seem to have some slight QC issues and I'm not surprised given how cheap the are, so it's a bit of a gamble.
> Some good "cheap" fans for radiators/heatsinks are the PH-F120MPs and the ML120s (two pack). I have no tested the new Thermalright 12cm fans, but they seem decently priced (and surprisingly available).


Thanks for the reply. I think to be more specific, I try not to run my current fans above 1200 rpm because that is when I begin to notice them. They peak at 1500rpm so it's not terrible if they're maxed but I find 1200rpm the sweet spot.

I can't objectively define the amount of noise that is acceptable. So that is why I set 1200rpm as a "benchmark" in my previous post. But if a different fan can operate at higher revolutions _and _offer similar acoustics _and_ better performance, i'll opt for that. If that makes sense. 

Edit: The fans you've listed are considerably more expensive.


Corsair ML120, 120mm Premium Magnetic Levitation Fan (2-Pack): Amazon.ca: Computers & Tablets $50 for two.
Phanteks 120mm, PWM, High Static Pressure Radiator Retail Cooling Fan PH-F120MP_BK_PWM: Amazon.ca: Electronics 28$ per fan.


----------



## T.Sharp

After switching from P12's to NF-P12 and NF-P14s, I definitely think the Noctua fans are worth the extra cost. The Redux P12 has really good static pressure and airflow. They run almost silent at ~1200 RPM but move more air than the Arctic P12. At max RPM the Redux make more noise, but it's the sound of moving air and not fan vibration.


----------



## Slaughtahouse

T.Sharp said:


> After switching from P12's to NF-P12 and NF-P14s, I definitely think the Noctua fans are worth the extra cost. The Redux P12 has really good static pressure and airflow. They run almost silent at ~1200 RPM but move more air than the Arctic P12. At max RPM the Redux make more noise, but it's the sound of moving air and not fan vibration.


Thanks for the context. I think i’ll opt for 3 of those as it will be cheaper (per unit) than the Arctic P12s. Just have to check if my fan splitter supports PWM...

Question: Is there a review that compares these fans (head to head)? I can only find separate reviews, not direct comparisons.


----------



## T.Sharp

Slaughtahouse said:


> Thanks for the context. I think i’ll opt for 3 of those as it will be cheaper (per unit) than the Arctic P12s. Just have to check if my fan splitter supports PWM...
> 
> Question: Is there a review that compares these fans (head to head)? I can only find separate reviews, not direct comparisons.




I don't think I've seen a direct comparison review.


----------



## bigmac11

5-Pack Arctic P12 PWM PST 120mm Case Fan $31 + Free Shipping


ARCTIC Inc via Amazon has 5-Pack Arctic P12 PWM PST 120 mm Case Fan on sale for $30.99. Shipping is free. Thanks to community member molitt for finding this deal. Note, in stock May 20, 2021 ...




slickdeals.net


----------



## ciarlatano

Slaughtahouse said:


> Thanks for the context. I think i’ll opt for 3 of those as it will be cheaper (per unit) than the Arctic P12s. Just have to check if my fan splitter supports PWM...
> 
> Question: Is there a review that compares these fans (head to head)? I can only find separate reviews, not direct comparisons.


One of the big issues is that there really hasn't been a review of the P12 by any reputable reviewer regardless of the fans compared. I've only tried out the P14, not the P12, and they were excellent fans for the price when they are dirt cheap. But, as @T.Sharp stated, they were no match for the likes of the Redux in a lot of ways.


----------



## Slaughtahouse

bigmac11 said:


> 5-Pack Arctic P12 PWM PST 120mm Case Fan $31 + Free Shipping
> 
> 
> ARCTIC Inc via Amazon has 5-Pack Arctic P12 PWM PST 120 mm Case Fan on sale for $30.99. Shipping is free. Thanks to community member molitt for finding this deal. Note, in stock May 20, 2021 ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slickdeals.net



That just threw a curveball in this discussion...










$53 CAD for 5 Arctic fans (delivered by end of May)

or...

$53 CAD for 3 Noctua fans delivered in one day.










I only need 3 for the radiator... My system has only one other fan (140mm Corsair AF Quiet) as an exhaust. So I really don’t need to replace it.

Thoughts? My mind still leans towards the Noctua fans based on my goal plus the comments here but... im open minded.


----------



## maltamonk

Same price to accomplish the same task, as 2 of the Artics would be sat collecting dust. I'd say Noctuas, unless you'll have a use for the other 2 Artics.


----------



## Slaughtahouse

^ No but I have a giant box of Corsair AF / SP 120 fans i've been waiting to sell. So those would just join the bin too. Likely i'll be able to sell all those fans sitting for 60-80$. They're the old coloured ring style ones...

Not as many as this old video but you get the gist... 






Thanks all for the feedback. I think its clear for me. Noctua.


----------



## Melcar

Slaughtahouse said:


> Thanks for the reply. I think to be more specific, I try not to run my current fans above 1200 rpm because that is when I begin to notice them. They peak at 1500rpm so it's not terrible if they're maxed but I find 1200rpm the sweet spot.
> 
> I can't objectively define the amount of noise that is acceptable. So that is why I set 1200rpm as a "benchmark" in my previous post. But if a different fan can operate at higher revolutions _and _offer similar acoustics _and_ better performance, i'll opt for that. If that makes sense.
> 
> Edit: The fans you've listed are considerably more expensive.
> 
> 
> Corsair ML120, 120mm Premium Magnetic Levitation Fan (2-Pack): Amazon.ca: Computers & Tablets $50 for two.
> Phanteks 120mm, PWM, High Static Pressure Radiator Retail Cooling Fan PH-F120MP_BK_PWM: Amazon.ca: Electronics 28$ per fan.



Ouch. Right now I can get PH-F120MPs for $13USD on Amazon (white blades but whatever). The MLs I checked a few weeks ago and they went for $35USD for the two pack. Definitely got for the cheapest in your region.


----------



## ciarlatano

Slaughtahouse said:


> That just threw a curveball in this discussion...
> 
> 
> 
> $53 CAD for 5 Arctic fans (delivered by end of May)
> 
> or...
> 
> $53 CAD for 3 Noctua fans delivered in one day.
> 
> 
> 
> I only need 3 for the radiator... My system has only one other fan (140mm Corsair AF Quiet) as an exhaust. So I really don’t need to replace it.
> 
> Thoughts? My mind still leans towards the Noctua fans based on my goal plus the comments here but... im open minded.


Shouldn't even be a question. You buy the Noctuas.


----------



## Slaughtahouse

You all will hate me  I realized in the context of my post, I was really looking for the best performing, quiet fans and spending ~60 CAD (3 fans + adapter)... I was questioning whether it made sense vs. the SP120 fans I already have.

So I did a 180 flip and ordered three (3) of probably the most expensive fans... Noctua nf-a12x25. Every single review I found regarding Arctic P12s or Noctua NF-P12 reduxs... the a12x25's were in the discussion and performed better (acoustic and thermals). Of course... at a very premium cost.

I thought long term, that would make more sense. As I plan to migrate my system from a Meshify C into a mini ITX case (TBD).

These fans should be more versatile to install those in a small system vs the Arctic P12's or NF-P12 Redux as I can use them on radiators, case mounts, a CPU heatsink, or even on the GPU with the included kit. 

Even though I acknowledge that the P12s and NF-P12 Redux are a much better value, it just didn't make sense when I was about to make the purchase.


----------



## Melcar

They are all 12cm fans with the same mounting pattern. I don't see why the NF-A12s would be more "versatile". Yes, they are arguably the best 12cm fans at a (almost justifiable) ridiculous price.


----------



## T.Sharp

Slaughtahouse said:


> You all will hate me  I realized in the context of my post, I was really looking for the best performing, quiet fans and spending ~60 CAD (3 fans + adapter)... I was questioning whether it made sense vs. the SP120 fans I already have.
> 
> So I did a 180 flip and ordered three (3) of probably the most expensive fans... Noctua nf-a12x25. Every single review I found regarding Arctic P12s or Noctua NF-P12 reduxs... the a12x25's were in the discussion and performed better (acoustic and thermals). Of course... at a very premium cost.
> 
> I thought long term, that would make more sense. As I plan to migrate my system from a Meshify C into a mini ITX case (TBD).
> 
> These fans should be more versatile to install those in a small system vs the Arctic P12's or NF-P12 Redux as I can use them on radiators, case mounts, a CPU heatsink, or even on the GPU with the included kit.
> 
> Even though I acknowledge that the P12s and NF-P12 Redux are a much better value, it just didn't make sense when I was about to make the purchase.


Well they are the best fans money can buy 😛 I can't give ya any grief for going that route. I would have too if they weren't so dang spensive.

That said, the NF-P12 Redux is well suited for all use cases too. Lots of airflow and pressure.


----------



## Slaughtahouse

I mean because it comes with the little rubber mounts to install it onto a cooler and these fans apparently perform great, no matter the amount of restriction (or lack thereof) in front of it. Of course, any fan can be installed anywhere with trusty zip ties 

Anyway, I got a crap ton of fans to sell to fund the new ones..  I'll try to get 10$ a pop for them


----------



## ciarlatano

Slaughtahouse said:


> You all will hate me


Oddly, there are people in this thread who will think less of you for making the choice to buy better fans (really strange, but true). I can assure I am not one of those people, and likely would have wound up with exactly the same fans as you ultimately chose.


----------



## Slaughtahouse

Well, I understand. We’re a community and we want to help each other. I’m all for value but in my context, I realize that even at the better cost, how much of a gain in overall performance was I gaining? Likely still quite a bit but still... it didn’t sit right.

So i appreciate all the feedback and I spent many hours last night reading and watching various reviews. I even placed the order for the Noctua redux’s last night. But when I woke up, I cancelled it and swapped it to the a12x25s.










I’ve logged a lot of data in my own build log thread. So i’ll be able to put up some good data (thermals) comparing these new fans vs. my corsair setup. Unfortunately, I would not be able to validate the acoustics but I don’t think that is necessary considering the fans reputation.


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## maltamonk

I'm just an advocate for diminishing returns, which a lot of ppl seem to hate with a passion.


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## Hawkjoss

Arctic upgraded their p12 with RGB and 0db mode. 








P12 PWM PST A-RGB | semi-passive A-RGB case fan | ARCTIC


ARCTIC's semi-passive A-RGB case fan with 0 decibel mode. Available now in the colors: white and black as well as in the Value Pack | Free shipping i…




www.arctic.de


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## maltamonk

0 dB mode.....Lol. That's called off.


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## T.Sharp

Arctic P12 - 1800 RPM / 95.7 m³/h / 2.20 mm H₂O

Arctic P12 RGB 0dB - 2000 RPM / 82.9 m³/h / 1.85 mm H₂O

Noctua NF-P12 Redux - 1700 RPM / 120.2 m³/h / 2.83 mm H₂O

Noctua NF-A12x25 - 2000 RPM / 102.1 m³/h / 2.34 mm H₂O


I wouldn't call the RGB Arctic P12 an "upgrade". 

Also, hot dang, the Redux is more powerful than the A12x25 even at a lower RPM...


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## ciarlatano

T.Sharp said:


> I wouldn't call the RGB Arctic P12 an "upgrade".
> 
> Also, hot dang, the Redux is more powerful than the A12x25 even at a lower RPM...


First, yes, big LOL at calling RGB, being able to have the fan not run and a performance decrease an "upgrade".

And the Redux convo would be off topic, but refer to Noctua's own comparison regarding your comment. At fan speeds most likely to be used the X25 is better than the Redux.


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## Slaughtahouse

I know this isn't directly Arctic related but I've made the upgrade on the weekend and wanted to chime in on the acoustics/performance. See end of post to understand why I commented here...

For ref:
This is an upgrade from Corsair SP120 _Quiet_ to Noctua NF-A12x25 on a EX360mm radiator (17fpi) in a Meshify C in PUSH config.
Fans are installed directly between radiator and front panel that is filtered / has mesh (meshify eh?).
Fans have anti-vibration corners (case side) and anti-vibration gasket (radiator side)
Fans are all connected to a single 4 pin connector, daisy chained with the included "Y" adapters.



Spoiler: Front view

















Spoiler: Side view
























Disclaimer: No real scientific data / testing methodology.

My approach:

Using my Gigabyte motherboard software, System Information Viewer (SIV), I can manually adjust fan speed via RPM or PWM signal within Windows.
Now, I don't have duplicate setups so I can't necessary compare sound of the SP120s vs the Noctua's side by side.
I also have no intention to reinstall the fans to compare back to Noctua with this testing method.

Results / findings:

What I recall about the SP120s is that they were nearly silent up until 1200 RPM. I could audibly notice them pushing air at ≥ 1200 RPM. At ≥ 1200 RPM (MAX 1450 RPM), the noise volume increased but the sound signature / frequency was low. Still sounds like air and there was a slight *constant* mechanical noise (hum).

With the Noctua's, they are technically louder at MAX 2000 RPM (100% PWM / 12v) but surprisingly... not much louder. If I could add a noise increase as a percentage, 10%.
Additionally, I'd don't know if it's because its my "PUSH" setup but once I am between 1800 to 2000 RPM, the noctua fans are making a quieter mechanical noise (hum) _but_ it's *pulsing*. Not constant like the Corsair SP120s. While I don't run at 100% 2000 RPM, the pulsing hum is very annoying. It's like an uuuuMuuMuuuMuuMuuuM pattern vs. a mmmmmmmmm Corsair SP 120 sound.

With the Noctua's adjusted to <1500 RPM, I don't hear them. At =1500 RPM, I can just start to hear them but it's not annoying.
At about 1800 RPM, they air pushing volume sound is about = to 1450RPM of the SP120s but the pulsing hum is annoying.

The only comparison I can do live / without replacing fans or adjust config is comparing the three (3) Noctua NF-A12x25s vs my one (1) *AF140 *Quiet exhaust fan.

Using SIV, I notice a equilibrium in sound volume when the Noctua's are set to 1500 RPM and the AF140 set to 1100 RPM but the AF140 has a higher frequency (more noticable).



Spoiler: SIV screenshots

























EDIT: Temperature Data:

I ran AIDA 64 (System Stress Test) at various RPM set in SIV. Note: Setting RPM in SIV doesn't equal 1:1. As it's likely still PWM and the level of control is not 100% accurate. In my data, I indicated what RPM I set SIV to within the chart title. However, you'll see in the logs the real fan RPM varies. I.E. 1000 RPM in SIV = 1070 RPM.

In short, at the same RPM, I can knock off approx 2C. However, remember that these fans are much quieter. So if we compare the fans at normalized sound (subjective), I can squeeze out another ~400 RPM on the Noctua's.
I was lucky to find a single, old HWiNFO log from AIDA64 at the same CPU voltage / frequency (YAAY).

Result? 4.5C delta at a fan speed I would use 24/7 (~1500).










*Notes:*
1. All results are here: Noctua NF-A12x25 - AIDA 64 - RPM Test
2. I don't have sufficient data from the SP120s as I wasn't benching the fan speed before.
3. In the 500 RPM Noctua run, my system crashed about 15-20mns into the stress test. All other tests ran for approx 1hr. before I cancelled it and steady state was achieved.

In summary:

Where the fans worth the investment? Hmm.. probably not if I am being 100% objective considering the cost. I noticed in CB20, doing a cold run (without my loop at steady state), I max at 59C. With the Corsair SP 120's, I recall hitting 64C. So it's a 5C drop today vs. a screenshot I took 5 months ago. Impressive right? Maybe but I bet you if I do more testing, I think that delta (5C) will shrink. *EDIT: SEE ABOVE (Temperature Data).*

If I can get rid of the humming, I would say yes, it's 100% worth it.



Spoiler:  April 12, 2021 - CB R20 - Cold Run - 59C peak temp

















Spoiler: December 2020, CB R20 - Cold Run - 64C peak temp















What I like:

They can be equally, near dead quiet at an increase in 300 RPM (1500 RPM vs 1200 RPM).
At 1800 RPM, they are equally loud / audible as the Corsair SP120s at MAX (1450) RPM.
Thermal performance (more data needed to validate local performance).
Build quality / accessories. Feels premium 
What I don't like:

Pulsing humming sound at ~1800 RPM+.
Cost.

*Final thoughts:* If you already have quiet fans and you're looking for marginal increases in performance, the Noctua NF-A12x25s will do just that.

*However,* if you're buying fans to either replace crappy case / pre-installed ones, or you simply need fans, I bet you the Arctic P12s and/or previously recommended Noctua NF-P12 redux are a much better value for similar performance.

Edit: If you want to hear the humming sound, crank your speakers to 100% and listen to this video (timestamp below). They managed to capture it but it's not discussed or addressed by the review. It's subtle but there.


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## T.Sharp

I had the same pulsing noise issue when I was using 2 Arctic P12 fans as top exhaust. It was caused by the fans spinning at slightly different RPM and not being perfectly balanced. The slight difference in speed modulates the vibration. It wasn't just at high RPM though, it would start around 1100 RPM.

When I switched to 2 NF-P14s fans for the top, the modulated pulsing went away. I have my fans on equal length splitters coming off the mobo header, so voltage should be exactly the same for both fans. If you're using daisy chain connectors, the slight voltage drop could be contributing to differences in fan speed.


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## Slaughtahouse

Thanks for the context  I assumed as such but I didn't know the technical reason. To be clear, the pulsing noise is there, even at lower RPMs too. That might not have been clear in my post but it's doesn't bother me. But when I go above 1500 RPM, it's definitely noticeable.

I can try ordering the 3 way splitter I previously had in my cart from Amazon when I was going to order the NF-P12's. It's 10$ for two splitters so I guess worth the try 

I assume each branch / split will be equal length Cable Matters 2 Pack 4 Pin PWM 3 Computer Case Fan Splitter Cable – 12 Inches: Amazon.ca: Electronics

It's odd that it wasn't noticeable with my Corsair SP 120's though. As my existing 3 pin splitter, was a giant daisy chain too. The last fan on that splitter receives voltage 3x further way.


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## T.Sharp

Slaughtahouse said:


> Thanks for the context  I assumed as such but I didn't know the technical reason. To be clear, the pulsing noise is there, even at lower RPMs too. That might not have been clear in my post but it's doesn't bother me. But when I go above 1500 RPM, it's definitely noticeable.
> 
> I can try ordering the 3 way splitter I previously had in my cart from Amazon when I was going to order the NF-P12's. It's 10$ for two splitters so I guess worth the try
> 
> I assume each branch / split will be equal length Cable Matters 2 Pack 4 Pin PWM 3 Computer Case Fan Splitter Cable – 12 Inches: Amazon.ca: Electronics
> 
> It's odd that it wasn't noticeable with my Corsair SP 120's though. As my existing 3 pin splitter, was a giant daisy chain too. The last fan on that splitter receives voltage 3x further way.


Yeah that splitter you linked would be equal length.

I'm not sure how much effect the equal length splitter would have tbh, I've never had fans daisy chained in this system. The Arctic P12 fans have a bit of variation in speed just from manufacturing tolerances of the motors and drivers. I don't think you'll find 2 fans of any brand that will spin at exactly the same speed, so maybe the splitter won't help. That being said, the Noctua fans should have tighter tolerances and be pretty closely matched. Not to mention they should be well balanced 🤔

It's also going to be dependent on the case, fans and particular setup. My top vent grill (Lancool 205) would resonate with the Arctic fans and exacerbate the noise. Every case and panel will have different resonances. I would think that having the fans attached to a solid radiator would eliminate that issue though. If you put your hand on the front panel that the fans are attached to, can you feel any vibration?


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## Slaughtahouse

What i'm going to try first is simply unplug one fan / Y adapter.

So with two (2) fans on a single Y adapter, I should be able to quickly determine if that helps fix the issue.

I can feel a slight vibration (matching the pulse / hum) if I *touch* the *exterior *metal / plastic frame around the mesh intake panel.


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## T.Sharp

Slaughtahouse said:


> What i'm going to try first is simply unplug one fan / Y adapter.
> 
> So with two (2) fans on a single Y adapter, I should be able to quickly determine if that helps fix the issue.
> 
> I can feel a slight vibration (matching the pulse / hum) if I *touch* the *exterior *metal / plastic frame around the mesh intake panel.
> View attachment 2486305


Good idea 👌

You might also try installing the fans in pull config so they're only attached to the rad. The rad has a lot of mass so it should help dampen the vibration before it can get to the case. 🤷‍♂️


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## Slaughtahouse

Yup! That was my first instinct and why in my initial findings / summary on the previous page, I mentioned the system is in "PUSH" config.

I'll troubleshoot both options before purchasing the 3 way splitter. Thanks for all the feedback


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## jura11

T.Sharp said:


> I had the same pulsing noise issue when I was using 2 Arctic P12 fans as top exhaust. It was caused by the fans spinning at slightly different RPM and not being perfectly balanced. The slight difference in speed modulates the vibration. It wasn't just at high RPM though, it would start around 1100 RPM.
> 
> When I switched to 2 NF-P14s fans for the top, the modulated pulsing went away. I have my fans on equal length splitters coming off the mobo header, so voltage should be exactly the same for both fans. If you're using daisy chain connectors, the slight voltage drop could be contributing to differences in fan speed.


Running 18 of Arctic Cooling P12 PWM fans on my loop and absolutely no issues, controlling all fans through the Aquacomputer Aquaero 6XT, although I running them on radiators usually in push and on pull there are different fans Phanteks PH-F120MP or Corsair ML120 and fan speeds on all fans usually sits in 850-950RPM on all Arctic Cooling P12 PWM fans and on other fans in 700-750RPM because Arctic Cooling P12 PWM fans are pretty quiet on my loop, similarly I'm running Thermalright TY-143 fans in higher RPM because at 1200RPM they're so quiet if I'm comparing them to PH-F140SP 

When I'm checking RPM trace in Aquacomputer Aquasuite I don't see there any pulse etc

Dud you run fans in PWM or voltage(DC) mode? 

Hope this helps 

Thanks, Jura


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## T.Sharp

jura11 said:


> Dud you run fans in PWM or voltage(DC) mode?


I forgot about that, the Arctic P12 fans were voltage controlled, the Noctua are PWM.


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## Slaughtahouse

Updated previous post with about 5 hours of AIDA 64 stress testing last night. Results were good


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## EarlZ

T.Sharp said:


> I don't think I've seen a direct comparison review.


Best comparison I can find






I am currently using all P12, P12-Slim (side intake), P14 fans on my system and I have no complaints all 13 of them. I am waiting for Noctua though to release a Chromax NF-A12x25 and a 140mm version, its gonna be a very expensive to replace all fans and chances are it will be with in a 1-2c difference. For the price the Arctic fans are really hard to beat!


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## Slaughtahouse

There is also a follow up review for the Noctua NF-A12x25s vs the Arctic P12's. However, it doesn't include the NF-P12 Redux q_q


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## exoHD

Dogzilla07 said:


> So what, I've been arguing about fans, coolers, power supplies and cases for years now, and before that, I was arguing about stuff in video games since forever. There's no such thing as a small or big enough object or topic to argue about, because the act arguing/debating itself is secondary in an argument, the primary important thing is hashing out the truth and/or personal knowledge/experience.


There is a difference between good-mannered intellectual arguments, and bigoted arguments laced with derogatory remarks, I hope you realize that.


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## The Pook

exoHD said:


> There is a difference between good-mannered intellectual arguments, and bigoted arguments laced with derogatory remarks, I hope you realize that.


you made an account to high horse a >2 year old post in a thread that's been dead >1 year?


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## Always Counterclockwise

The Pook said:


> you made an account to high horse a >2 year old post in a thread that's been dead >1 year?


I guess it's one way to say "I agree with @Dogzilla07, nothing is too small to argue about."?


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## exoHD

The Pook said:


> you made an account to high horse a >2 year old post in a thread that's been dead >1 year?


Yeah, and? I always enjoy a good necroposting


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## exoHD

Always Counterclockwise said:


> I guess it's one way to say "I agree with @Dogzilla07, nothing is too small to argue about."?


Erm, no.

If you want to have an argument, by all means go ahead, knock your socks off, as long as it's good-mannered and prompts further discussion, unlike some of the "I'm right and you're wrong" one-sided discussions seen in this thread. That was my point. Also FWIW, I'm well-acquainted with many tech forums, this just so happens to be my first time stumbling upon this forum in particular. I'd be happy to participate in it.


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## Avacado

The Pook said:


> you made an account to high horse a >2 year old post in a thread that's been dead >1 year?


It's AI learning us broham. I do like the way this NPC writes tho. 🤷‍♂️


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## Always Counterclockwise

exoHD said:


> That was my point.


Mmm, not much has changed, I'm afraid. You'll find a few others, too, alongside the usual tech bro subset with the inclination to interpret most every interaction as some sort of power contest with a winner and a loser rather than having interest in collaboration.

I do seek to be data driven. Which can go badly, people being people, when results don't align with someone's beliefs. This subforum moreso than most, as several prevailing assumptions have proved difficult to replicate.


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## Dogzilla07

exoHD said:


> There is a difference between good-mannered intellectual arguments, and bigoted arguments laced with derogatory remarks, I hope you realize that.


I've met as many, if not more incredible knowledgeable people and successful people, that don't practice saving face, that don't do proper manners, that don't behave socially perfect, with small-talking in drove, focusing on form over function at all costs. That I have otherwise. And I'm not the only one xD.

There's a famous paragraph, excerpt from the a couple of the more famous submarine books about WWII, where a newbie comes on a submarine, and meets all kinds of colorful people. And those prim&perfect on the outside were always the least knowledgable, most problematic, most stubborn, slow to change, and most dangerous to the crew.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you, and I behaved exactly the opposite before when I was learning, and before I was certain of the accuracy of my knowledge and writing. That took incredible time, as the miss-communication and abuse of my good manners, my tip-toeing, and incredible effort to preserve fragile egoes of people I communicated with took a heavy toll on me. Anyone crazy enough to bother sifting through my early postings 2013-2018 will have irrefutable proof if this.

I don't have the time, the patience, nor the lack of knowledge, nor any but the smallest amount of insecurity/if any insecurity about what I talk (when I calculate the chance to be right is high enough). to bother nowadays. When I calculate I'm in between or don't understand know what I'm talking about, for a given subject, I starting doing a completely 180 slowly/gradually, to not antagonize an expert, and politely and patiently learn as much as I can, and better myself).

I don't like it, I find it sad, disheartening, I hope I'll have more time in the future, and be able to return to those posh manners ever so slightly, but for now this is what you get. But it just takes too much of my time to do this on internet. It needs to be done so often, everyone is extremely combative and abuses it all the time, I just chose to focus on real life more, and do the internet, how the internet forces you to, no more, no less. This is the internet, I do everything in as little words and as little time as humanly possible, so everything I do will always come across as crass (but not intentionally).

You can also see that after the immovable crass wall of force of my first few posts, I do in fact, approach things with a lighter touch in follow-up discussion, and also make tons of jokes, and a lot on my own expense xD

Also keep in mind, as I said above, this is my emotionless, purely logical, redacted to the most basic data/information, and clearly separated by and defined subjective vs objective posting, and it only happens in full force on the first reply/first post. The more I talk, The more I know people I'm talking with, talking in private, talking IRL, the more completely opposite I behave.

The internet has punished me time and time again for being patient, mild-mannered, letting people save face at my own expense, not overload with wall of text, give small parts of a discussion over many posts, treat everyone fairly and in dignity no matter how opposite they do that to me, etc, ... I still do this in real life, as why wouldn't you ? I know every social and cultural etiquette, I just chose to focus on the facts and data and information first (and etiquette as a last resort) on the internet xD.

But the internet has taught me a lesson, and I've learned it (just write what you know, all know, in as complex way you can, with minimal balancing, and focus on the data/information, and ignore people's reactions as much as possible (whether positive or negative).

Ironically more people listen to my advice, more people are satisfied and happy, the more crass and direct, and overbearing and wall of text I behave xD

I'm convinced(via napkin math % of chance calculation) I'm accurate enough to figure out how accurate and correct I am in a given situation, and I scale up the directness and crass-ness accordingly. Whether I truly am or not, only time and people double-checking what I wrote will prove. And it might, and it did take months even years before. Everything I say, do and write stands on its merit no matter my feelings, no matter anyone else's feelings, and no one and nothing can change the whether accurate I was, if I was of what I wrote, only the emotional responses to that (which I give my damnest to completely ignore with the first post of a discussion, both mine and everyone else's). Afterwards, of course, with each consecutive post of discussion, I bring my manners into play, and scale down the crass-ness.

I'm sry you've had bad experience with grifters and people who abuse this in the real world, and while it's true that these kind of behaviour is usually used by those covering the completely lack of substance on the matter of discussion). Unfortunately, that's not the case with me, I've done my 10,000+ hours of mastery in these few fields over the last 10 years.

And I'm not all-knowing, my actual knowledge of physics is very amateur and basic (I do have a great knack and understanding for chemistry, but never went to school for it either). What I am a master in is combined and evaluating the accuracy of the knowledge and writing of other people + I've read and covered and learned almost all someone can related to fluid dynamics without actual going to college/faculty for it.

And I do hope to do take the next step and go through actual chemistry and physics books > material sciences > fluid dynamics at some point. (As yes I'm the kind of person who like to go through white-papers and science books, and books of institutions of learning as hobby in free time, and enjoy the challenge of being thrown into the vast extremely-complicated unknown, time and time again. (But have to force myself to do it, have 0 enthusiasm, and have to expertly plan my time/condition myself when it's for an actual exam xD).


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## Dogzilla07

Also, don't misunderstand, I don't do full crass-ness 100% of the time, even when talking about things I really know a lot about. It's not something I do intentionally or set out to do out of obsession/compulsion, whether dark triad related or otherwise. There's plenty of times I do etiquette on the first post as well (just that's its been exponentially less as of late compared to in years preceding). It's fully dependent on real life constraints, nothing more nothing less.


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## Dogzilla07

Always Counterclockwise said:


> I do seek to be data driven.


As should we all. But the caveat is this can easily be in the eye of the beholder, without a meticulous methodology, and restraints to eliminate bias, we people can work out incompletely/innacurate information out of data, or make bad data. Just because someone is testing, just because someone has experience, just because someone has a sciency background, and a degree, doesn't make them immune to mistakes (this is how cults of personalities form).

That the person doing testing does the necessary steps as dictated by statistics and psychology/philosophy is paramount. So is independent proof/testing. As is intended in the spirit of the meaning of word Science/Scientific method itself.

P.S. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not directly referencing you @Always Counterclockwise , I don't have the time, nor did I in great detail try to figure out if you did everything necessary to eliminate bias and error in your testing. you may or may not have, and to what degree. You have and do many things that bring a potential for to elevate the potential of your data/information/testing what u write to a very high degree. The proof is the pudding. But Time needs to pass as well. Continue to write and participate in the forum and let the merit of your contributions speak for themselves. This forum is infinitely richer, and everyone participates in discussions infinitely having benefited from the analytical and test-factual point of view your posts bring.

What I'm writing is more in general than anything else.

Steve from GamersNexus adequately explains the pitfalls of testing (having only 1 or a few pieces of a product to test makes your data irrelevant, u need more to eliminate manufacturing variance). Not remounting and doing multiple tests with every copy of a product you have (to eliminate mounting variance, and connected to no.1). Not keeping all other components not tested constant over a long period of years. Not fixing every voltage, and disabling every auto value, to eliminate variance there. Not having all the steps on a piece of paper, and following that piece of paper (methodology step-by-step). Even if you've done it a thousand times before without a check-list (eliminating human error and bias), and so on.

Having accurate data/information and testing doesn't come from being smart, nor educated, nor trained, nor having high IQ, nor EQ, nor experienced, nor master, nor being published in a journal before (it certainly helps build precedence, set build trust but i digress).

It comes from one thing and one thing only :

Incredible amounts of time wasted on testing, on mundane stuff to eliminate variance and human error.

And again @Always Counterclockwise I'm not directing this on you or anyone else, anything and everything I wrote is just solely for the purpose to express than, I, myself understand the spirit of the scientific method itself, and to show the contradictions between than and my previous post.

So to summarise, You, me, almost everyone on the planet doing any kind of testing, no matter how accurate no matter how experienced, we are, we can only get to Tier 2, and that is grand, useful, and we should be happy and proud (it's not a sin to value personal time more than work time). But only someone of the caliber of GamersNexus is Tier 1 (solely on the fidelity and quality of the methodology), nothing more nothing less.

And until someone else achieves the utter and complete lack of personal time/leisure activities, as they do xD, it's gonna be tough to compete.

The other way to be Tier 1, or well most Tier 1 adjacent (without have a methodology with GN levels of fidelity), and that is to be VSG, to be JonnyGuru, to be Aris (though aris is not grandfathered into Tier 1, his methodology is incredible pristine, and his leisure time probably competes with Steve from GN). The other way is to be grandfathered in, as to have been the highest authority on a subject for 5+ (ideally 10+ years), and to have vast amounts of people having had agreed that you are (in various discussions). And that at least some of those people were reviewers, and or industry professionals, etc, ...


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## doyll

*Dogzilla07*

Nice bit of explaining!

Even with the best equipment, best procedure, best sample base it's quite easy for results to be inaccurate causing reader to believe something that is not true. 

Problem is often same data can be interpreted many ways, even contradicting each other.


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## Pictus

The best compendium about the Arctic P14 PWM PST ARGB 0dB. (It is in Korean)


https://quasarzone.com/bbs/qf_cool/views/320433


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## CrustyJuggler

Pictus said:


> The best compendium about the Arctic P14 PWM PST ARGB 0dB. (It is in Korean)
> 
> 
> https://quasarzone.com/bbs/qf_cool/views/320433


I haven't run the site through a translator yet, but this page provides testing of 4 fan scenarios for a boatload of 120 and 140mm fans. https://quasarzone.com/bbs/qc_bench/views/74139. I'm not sure how these tests are used in the reviews, as those graphs show different results don't include the same fans. Not only that, but I like the Arctic P140 PWM PST in white or white/clear. My grab me a pair to see if they can replace the TL-C14s.

[edit for content and grammar]


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## doyll

CrustyJuggler said:


> I haven't run the site through a translator yet, but this page provides testing of 4 fan scenarios for a boatload of 120 and 140mm fans. https://quasarzone.com/bbs/qc_bench/views/74139. I'm not sure how these tests are used in the reviews, as those graphs show different results don't include the same fans. Not only that, but I like the Arctic P140 PWM PST in white or white/clear. My grab me a pair to see if they can replace the TL-C14s.
> 
> [edit for content and grammar]


If you do please post up your results.


----------

