# Gaming Mouse Sensor List



## Tyson86-88

I thought at g1 and mx510 is established Avago 3060


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## Tyson86-88

As far as I know from Razer Abyssus no prediction


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## rpgman1

So which mice do you recommend if you want the least amount of problems?


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## lb_felipe

Does the G9x work so good as G500 on 9HD?

Through some posts I have read that the negative acceleration in G500 is avoided by using the 4HD/9HD. As its sensor is exactly the same used in G9x (different to used in Xai), would it work well on that surface mousepad?


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## yashau

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lb_felipe* 
Does the G9x works so good as G500 on 9HD?

Through some posts I have read that the negative acceleration in G500 is avoided by using the 4HD/9HD. As the sensor is exactly the same used in G9x (different to used in Xai), would it work well on that surface mousepad?

It's actually positive acceleration and the only difference between the sensors on the Xai and the G500/G9x is the fact that you can tune how much prediction is set. So the answer is yes. The positive acceleration is totally over exaggerated I use them on cloth surfaces just fine without hampering my gameplay. I believe the positive accel is only around 5% or so. Not enough to cause any problems

Apparently this is only in the A9500. Disregard what I've posted earlier

Quote:

So which mice do you recommend if you want the least amount of problems?
Sensor wise, it's the DA 3G/3.5G but it's made by Razer and it's build quality is well, Razer.

OT: Great list. Now it just needs lift distance and it'll be perfect


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## lb_felipe

Now I do not understand. I thought that Avago "A"9500 shows "negative" acceleration on cloth and "positive" (much bit) acceleration on hard pad like 4../9HD.

It may be because I do not know english and Google Translator makes me a fool. Forgive me.

Quote:

OT: Great list. Now it just needs lift distance and it'll be perfect
incumbent

lift distance and grip would be nice. I know that this thread is about sensor, but...


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## yashau

I have also heard of negative accel on the Avago 9500 but have so far failed to reproduce any. I do get a bit of positive regardless of the surface I use. I really can't find any reputable source of info. Your post has got me confused too lol :|
About the lift distance. I thought it depended on the sensor


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## lb_felipe

I am sorry. It depends. You have reason.

And would be very good, in my humble opinion, if add it to plan and too the kind of grip for each mouse.

Sorry for confuse you. I avoid to write here because I do not speak english. I promess to write less until I learn english well.

I found this video:












Thank you for replies.


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## yashau

Oh, sorry after looking it up a bit more yes, it's only present in the A9500. I have tested two mice with the normal 9500 (Xai and Naos 5000) and they both don't have the negative acceleration. Sorry for the confusion :*D. Btw you're being too hard on your English it's all good imo.

Now I have to get my hands on a G500 to see this for myself.


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## Derp

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yashau* 
Oh, sorry after looking it up a bit more yes, it's only present in the A9500. I have tested two mice with the normal 9500 (Xai and Naos 5000) and they both don't have the negative acceleration.

I have tested this with the Xai and two G500's. They all have positive acceleration and they all hit negative acceleration on cloth pads well before their claimed speeds. Qck, Talent, Goliathus it doesn't matter. The sensor is flawed.


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## Bullveyr

I guess you took the max. speeds from ESReality MouseScore and that Japanese Guy (PC-MAX.de also has a benchtable)?
I wouldn't take some of those as "fixed absolute values", ESReality MouseScore is limited to the QcK and the Japanese Guy also has some of his results only on 1-2 surfaces.

Now some additions:

*MS Habu:*

it has the same sensor as the CH (S3018), dunno how put that on Wikipedia.









*MX518:*
Not sure on what version of the MX518 those 2 benches where done but perfect controle speed can be higher than 2m/s.

*G9x/G500/G700*
On what are those speeds based, a mix between the official specs and the benchtable results? (official specs would be 4.19m/s btw).

*Razer DB:*

The Plasma has the same sensor as the Krait (S3018) with an IR LED.

*Orochi:*

Same sensor as the Lachesis, no need for the "?".









*Ikari Optical:*

Afaik the Ikari loads the A3080 srom if set to 1600 CPI, so they aren't interpolated.

*Ikari Laser:*

It's OviationONS *I*, not *II*

Iirc it goes down to 1 CPI (exclusive to SS).

*Xai:*
Actually "Mouse Prediction: No, can enable" would be correct but that's just me being funny.









It's A9500, not S9500, and iirc it goes down to 100 CPI.

*Zowie EX1/2:*

Afaik the same as with the Ikari Optical, so no Interpolation.

Would need a "*" because a different lens affects the tracking speeds.

*A4Tech X-718BK:*

A3080

+ you can add interpolation for every A4Tech mouse

*NAOS 3200:*

From what I have read it only offers 800/1600/3200 CPI.
Whatever that means even more interpolation is present or they really use a 3rd party lens (unlikely).

*Roccat Kova:*

iirc it uses an IR LED

*Philips twin-eye:*

I wouldn't call it V1 and V2, that sensor was around before the Lachesis (originaly used in a Logitech mobile mouse).

Afaik the 3200 CPI version (Silverstone Raven) would be PLN 2030, 4000 CPI is PLN 2031 and the 5600 CPI one would be the PLN 2032.


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## Skylit

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bullveyr* 
I guess you took the max. speeds from ESReality MouseScore and that Japanese Guy (PC-MAX.de also has a benchtable)?
I wouldn't take some of those as "fixed absolute values", ESReality MouseScore is limited to the QcK and the Japanese Guy also has some of his results only on 1-2 surfaces.

Now some additions:

*MS Habu:*

it has the same sensor as the CH (S3018), dunno how put that on Wikipedia.









*MX518:*
Not sure on what version of the MX518 those 2 benches where done but perfect controle speed can be higher than 2m/s.

*G9x/G500/G700*
On what are those speeds based, a mix between the official specs and the benchtable results? (official specs would be 4.19m/s btw).

*Razer DB:*

The Plasma has the same sensor as the Krait (S3018) with an IR LED.

*Orochi:*

Same sensor as the Lachesis, no need for the "?".









*Ikari Optical:*

Afaik the Ikari loads the A3080 srom if set to 1600 CPI, so they aren't interpolated.

*Ikari Laser:*

It's OviationONS *I*, not *II*

Iirc it goes down to 1 CPI (exclusive to SS).

*Xai:*
Actually "Mouse Prediction: No, can enable" would be correct but that's just me being funny.









It's A9500, not S9500, and iirc it goes down to 100 CPI.

*Zowie EX1/2:*

Afaik the same as with the Ikari Optical, so no Interpolation.

Would need a "*" because a different lens affects the tracking speeds.

*A4Tech X-718BK:*

A3080

+ you can add interpolation for every A4Tech mouse

*NAOS 3200:*

From what I have read it only offers 800/1600/3200 CPI.
Whatever that means even more interpolation is present or they really use a 3rd party lens (unlikely).

*Roccat Kova:*

iirc it uses an IR LED

*Philips twin-eye:*

I wouldn't call it V1 and V2, that sensor was around before the Lachesis (originaly used in a Logitech mobile mouse).

Afaik the 3200 CPI version (Silverstone Raven) would be PLN 2030, 4000 CPI is PLN 2031 and the 5600 CPI one would be the PLN 2032.

Alrite, will fix.

Just making it clear that the google spreadsheet is open to everyone. Anyone can edit if they find something wrong.

Edit. Is the habu LED or Laser? It starts with an LED sensor code, but the perfect control and malfunction speeds tested @ esreality were in laser territory.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tyson86-88* 
I thought at g1 and mx510 is established Avago 3060

I'm confused about this as well. Between Perfect control and malfunction rates, none of the 3060's match up with each other. They're either using custom firmware or something along the lines. Sujoy and others on esreality stated that the sensor was indeed a S2020.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lb_felipe* 
Does the G9x work so good as G500 on 9HD?

Through some posts I have read that the negative acceleration in G500 is avoided by using the 4HD/9HD. As its sensor is exactly the same used in G9x (different to used in Xai), would it work well on that surface mousepad?

Hard pad is preferred. May people experience random positive/negative acceleration on cloth. Avago themselves have confirmed this problem with all versions of the ADNS-9500.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yashau* 
I have also heard of negative accel on the Avago 9500 but have so far failed to reproduce any. I do get a bit of positive regardless of the surface I use. I really can't find any reputable source of info. Your post has got me confused too lol :|
About the lift distance. I thought it depended on the sensor

Depends on sensor position and or lens. Take the Ikari Optical and Zowie EC1/2 for example. Same sensor, but the Ikari has a LOD of 3.5mm and the EC1/2 has a LOD of 1.5mm.

Edit: If you want a column for LOD, then sure I guess we can do that, but I'm going to need help filling it in. Just making it clear that it's going to be based on the mouse, and not the sensor.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rpgman1* 
So which mice do you recommend if you want the least amount of problems?

That depends on your grip and surface.


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## rpgman1

For me, I'm mostly a palm gripper (switched to claw on some games) on a hard surface mat. Trying to wonder which mice would work for me.


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## Bullveyr

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Skylit* 
Alrite, will fix.

Just making it clear that the google spreadsheet is open to everyone. Anyone can edit if they find something wrong.

I know but I will certainly not make a google account.









Quote:

Edit. Is the habu LED or Laser? It starts with an LED sensor code, but the perfect control and malfunction speeds tested @ esreality were in laser territory.
Ups, my fault, it's ofc S6018 (ADNS-6010).

Quote:

I'm confused about this as well. Between Perfect control and malfunction rates, none of the 3060's match up with each other. They're either using custom firmware or something along the lines. Sujoy and others on esreality stated that the sensor was indeed a S2020.
Jep, G1/MX310/MX510 have the S2020 which was exclusive to Logitech, just like the A2020 (most likely same hardware).

Quote:

Hard pad is preferred. May people experience random positive/negative acceleration on cloth. Avago themselves have confirmed this problem with all versions of the ADNS-9500.
but they don't say that it will have real accel. probs on cloth in general.









Quote:

Depends on sensor position and or lens. Take the Ikari Optical and Zowie EC1/2 for example. Same sensor, but the Ikari has a LOD of 3.5mm and the EC1/2 has a LOD of 1.5mm.

Edit: If you want a column for LOD, then sure I guess we can do that, but I'm going to need help filling it in. Just making it clear that it's going to be based on the mouse, and not the sensor.
Lens and sensor position is in most cases pretty much the same but there are other factors.

A LOD chart would need many different mouse pads.


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## lb_felipe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yashau* 
Btw you're being too hard on your English it's all good imo.

Thanks for encouragement.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Skylit* 
Hard pad is preferred. May people experience random positive/negative acceleration on cloth. Avago themselves have confirmed this problem with all versions of the ADNS-9500.

Thanks for reply.

So G9x and G500 both have same performance on a same mousepad. Is it right?


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## Bullveyr

Quote:

Avago Sues STMicroelectronics Over Patents for Mice:

March 18 (Bloomberg) -- Avago Technologies Ltd., a maker of semiconductor products, filed a patent-infringement lawsuit against STMicroelectronics NV over sensors used in optical mice.
...
The complaint, filed March 15 in federal court in Tyler, Texas, names the *SteelSeries Kinzu Optical Mouse* that contains STMicro components as one example of an infringing product.
...
Source

Now I can finaly tell that the Kinzu has a sensor from STMicroelectronics.


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## Skylit

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bullveyr* 
Source

Now I can finaly tell that the Kinzu has a sensor from STMicroelectronics.










How the hell does a company manage to make one of the best and one of the worse mouse sensors on the market?

Kinda sucks that they're getting sued over a failed product, but then again, they seem to be raking in the money. http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...26-722349.html


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## Bullveyr

They always got outperformed by Avago, on thze plus side they only had the very low LOD.
(I don't coun't angle snapping because it has nothing to do with the technical quality of a sensor).
They were never able to make a modern sensor (higher CPI and IPS).

The sensor department is surely not the biggest one.








The sensor might be a fail but I would guess SS sold a a not too low number of Kinzus.

Not the first and not the last time Avago sues because of their sensor patents.


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## Skylit

Did microsoft sneek an avago sensor into the newer WMO's? I have a couple of original 2002-2003 models and they look nothing alike, Infact, the original sensor pcb is a lot smaller and looks like it shares the same hardware as the IE3.0/IO1.1. This on the other hand, dosen't...


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## Lemmy

Mouse:GIGABYTE M8000X
Sensor:Avago ADNS-9500
Type: Laser
CPI/DPI: up to 6000
Perfect control speed: ?
Malfunction speed ?
Mouse Prediction ?


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## Bullveyr

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Skylit* 









Did microsoft sneek an avago sensor into the newer WMO's? I have a couple of original 2002-2003 models and they look nothing alike, Infact, the original sensor pcb is a lot smaller and looks like it shares the same hardware as the IE3.0/IO1.1. This on the other hand, dosen't...

older versions of the IMO/WMO/IME had some early Agilent/Avago sensor

http://home.comcast.net/~richardlowens/OpticalMouse/

I had a better source with but I don't find it atm, too lazy to really google for it


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## Skylit

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bullveyr* 
older versions of the IMO/WMO/IME had some early Agilent/Avago sensor

http://home.comcast.net/~richardlowens/OpticalMouse/

I had a better source with but I don't find it atm, too lazy to really google for it









There's no reference of the IE3.0 or IO1.1 using anything other than a OSMLT04. I'm pretty sure the IME2.0 had an Avago/Agilent sensor, but they were extremely rare/limited.

When did the WMO come out? Both of mine have MLT04's D:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lemmy* 
Mouse:GIGABYTE M8000X
Sensor:Avago ADNS-9500
Type: Laser
CPI/DPI: up to 6000
Perfect control speed: ?
Malfunction speed ?
Mouse Prediction ?

Will add.


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## Bullveyr

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Skylit* 
There's no reference of the IE3.0 or IO1.1 using anything other than a OSMLT04.

But the non 1.1 had (older WMO/Intellimouse, and the source of your picture is a review from 2001 and the never mention it's a 1.1.


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## Skylit

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bullveyr* 
But the non 1.1 had (older WMO/Intellimouse, and the source of your picture is a review from 2001 and the never mention it's a 1.1.

Confusing









So the IO 1.1 and IE 3.0 started out with MLT 04's in the year 2002-2003.

The WMO started off with an Agilent/Avago sensor in 2000/2001. Later, they made a 1.1a revision to the WMO in 2002. I think I have this cleared up now lol

Btw. http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Optica...item3a5fff787b

Pretty rare. I wouldn't even want to open it. Judging from the windows 2000 sticker, it's a 2002 model since XP came out in 03 01.


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## Bullveyr

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Skylit* 
So the IO 1.1 and IE 3.0 started out with MLT 04's in the year 2002-2003.

The WMO started off with an Agilent/Avago sensor in 2000/2001. Later, they made a 1.1a revision to the WMO in 2002. I think I have this cleared up now lol

Looks that way, afaik an earlier IntelliMouse Optical also had some Agilent/Avago sensor (but I don't know the real dates) .

PS: Win XP came out 2001.


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## Skylit

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bullveyr* 
Looks that way, afaik an earlier IntelliMouse Optical also had some Agilent/Avago sensor (but I don't know the real dates) .

PS: Win XP came out 2001.









Oh that's right. I have no clue why I was thinking 03 lol


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## lb_felipe

I have a question:

Are 1,800 DPI enough for 2560x1600 monitor resolution?


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## Tyson86-88

Please give me the cons of this sensor: Philips Twin Eye PLN 2031


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## Jalal

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lb_felipe* 
I have a question:

Are 1,800 DPI enough for 2560x1600 monitor resolution?

imo you need at least ~2400 if you play on high sens, so 1800 might work for low sens, i don't know


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## Scarzy

This table is everything I ever wanted. I have printed a copy out and it will be stuck up on my whiteboard, I'm not joking. Great work.

E: Yes bull, i'm stalking you.


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## rmp459

this might be the best thread ever.


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## Bullveyr

About prediction:

The pretty old Hades Ares H1 (Sensor from STMicro) supposedly also had the option to turn it on/off.
That mouse has some general deep sensor adjustments.


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## oblivionlord

Crazy question here but how are these results achieved? What method was used in finding these results? Perhaps I missed a post showing this information?

Thanks


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## Bullveyr

CPI are from Sensor Specs.

Perfect Control and Malfunction Speed is based on 2 benchtables or specs.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679

http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/inde...aximumSpeed_en

There is another one which Skylit afaik didn't use.

http://www.pc-max.de/artikel/eingabe...maeuse-im-test


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## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;11592342*
> About prediction:
> 
> The pretty old Hades Ares H1 (Sensor from STMicro) supposedly also had the option to turn it on/off.
> That mouse has some general deep sensor adjustments.


Is there any difference to the Verbatim Rapier V2? Do you [edit: or anybody else







] know more about the sensor? Could it be the SS Kinzu's?


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## Bullveyr

Based on the Manual the Rapier V2 lacks those more advanced sensor adjustments.

Same Sensor Manufacturer but not the exact same sensor.


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## bojinglebells

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jalal;11191675*
> imo you need at least ~2400 if you play on high sens, so 1800 might work for low sens, i don't know












higher DPI mice don't become necessary until the monitors pixel density goes drastically up, and the largest variation we see on consumer monitors is something like 85-109 ppi, a relative drop in the bucket.

I use 400-800 at 2560x1440 and don't consider myself a low sensitivity player because I usually keep the software setting 1:1.


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## Jalal

lol i cant even play with 400 on 1024x768, it takes forever to pass the screen. guess your ingame setting is also not more than 1:1?


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## Kragarmendes

I found this sensitivity calculation page to be very convenient and correct.
Under settings enter from top to bottom and left to right:
800 1 4.7 0.022 1920 120 0 100
Then hit the first three "calculate" buttons from top to bottom.

What you should learn is:
With *800dpi @fullHD* you should still be able to get a *count : pixel ratio of 1:1* at a real sensitivity of *11cm/360˚* which could be considered middle to high sens imo.

Let me know if you see some major flaws in this reasoning


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## Kragarmendes

Sorry for double posting but at least it brings us back to the original subject









I couldn't edit the google spreadsheet directly - it said I didn't have permission to access this spreadsheet or something like that...

There are a couple of mice I'd find interesting to list at least for completeness:

Qpad 5k (A9500)
Ozone Radon 3k/5k (Philips PLN 2030)
Ozone Smog (A9500)*
Ace EDGE 3200 (A9500)*
Cyber Sniper Stinger/Silencer (A9500)*
Revoltec FightMouse Elite (A9500)*
Prestigio PMSG1 (A9500)*
Prestigio PMSG2 (Cypress Ovation I)
NZXT Avatar (A3080)
Emprex M873u (A3080)
GIGABYTE M6900/M6980
GIGABYTE GM-M8000 (A6090)
SilverStone RAVEN (Philips PLN 2030)
PowerLogic/Leapfroglobal Alien G9
Raidmax Hoorai (Fatal1ty copy?)

*virtually the same

I could find the sensor for most of them but not all. Apart from that, information seems to be difficult to get for those not listed on one of Bullveyr's references.

Any additions are welcome.


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## Bullveyr

*Emprex M873u:*

A3080, could be the same lens as Zowie EC Series or simply interpolated

*Ozone Radon:*

3K = PLN 2030
5K = PLN 2032

*Prestigio PMSG2:*

Do you mean the PMSG3 because the PMSG2 should also have the A9500?

*NZXT Avatar:*

3rd party lens from Kingsis -> much lower max. speed

*GIGABYTE M6900:*

A6010

*GIGABYTE M6980:*

Looks like a PixArt Sensor

*Raidmax Hoorai:*

Yup, that's the same as the Fatal1ty 2020 which had the A6010 sensor

*Powerlogic Alien G9:*

A9500


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## Kragarmendes

Thanks for the corrections Bullveyr - always good to have somebody double check









I find the *Emprex M873u* interesting because it looks pretty much fingertip grip and is the cheapest I have seen to try a A3080. Then again I read reviews of people saying the mouse had some weird auto-fire function when you pressed both buttons at once. I am also unsure whether I wanna put up with angle snapping...

On the *Prestigio PMSG2* I meant like "It says 3200dpi on their homepage and it looks like a Nova Slider X600 which is said to have a Cypress Ovation I so I assume it's the same"









I assume you mixed up the *GIGABYTE M6900/M6980* since the M6900 is optical and the M6980 is laser, right?

Is there any way to get hold of a *Powerlogic Alien G9* in Europe?


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## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;11660712*
> On the *Prestigio PMSG2* I meant like "It says 3200dpi on their homepage and it looks like a Nova Slider X600 which is said to have a Cypress Ovation I so I assume it's the same"


You're right, I mixed somethin up there but I could swear they had different specs on another Prestigio HP when I posted that.
Quote:


> I assume you mixed up the *GIGABYTE M6900/M6980* since the M6900 is optical and the M6980 is laser, right?


Dammit








Quote:


> Is there any way to get hold of a *Powerlogic Alien G9* in Europe?


Not that I know of, try to find some taiwanese shop which ships international.


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## Conditioned

Hey,

Nice info, thanks! Why didnt you include pos/neg accel?


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## Skylit

I'll update this tomorrow. Sleep first!


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## Conditioned

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;11689116*
> I'll update this tomorrow. Sleep first!


Lol, no need, I was just wondering, I certainly dont want you to spend more time on this. It´s just I been interested in this (again) since I started to play bfbc2 (first fps in ~5 years) and I had a lot of problems with the usb bus on my p55.

Sadly it seems that the only mice that dont have prediction and good tracking are wmo 1.1a ie3.0 and da3g. You cant buy the 3g any more and the ms mice are so low dpi they are ****e for my playing res (1900x1080).


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## Conditioned

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;11689116*
> I'll update this tomorrow. Sleep first!


ps. da 3.5 doesnt have prediction and you cant enable it. there is no firmware to enable it.


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## Dirtyworks

I don't know where to dispute something, so I'll just post.

I've had a few A4Tech X7's, I believe it was a X710 and X750, and they've both been ~2400DPI.


----------



## outerspace

I can measure perfect control and malfunction speeds by only software method and my hand. And I can't move mouse faster than ~3 m/sec, so if mouse have better characteristic than this speed, I can't notice that.

My results:

*A4tech X-710BK*
Sensor: Avago ADNS-3060
CPI/DPI: 100-2000 (maby 2400 with newest Oscar sofware, but I think this not impotant because all resolutions over 800 mades by interpolation)
Perfect Control: more than 3 m/s in all resolutions (measurement limit - it can be 3.5 or 4 or 5 or 6 m/s) 
Malfunction: more than 3 m/s (measurement limit) in all resolutions

*A4tech X-718BK*
Sensor: Avago ADNS-3080
CPI/DPI: 100-3200 (interpolation, 1600 is max "real" CPI)
Perfect Control: more than 3 m/s (measurement limit) with 400 CPI, 2.03 m/s with over 400 CPI
Malfunction: more than 3 m/s (measurement limit) in all resolutions

And how can I accurately measure level of prediction? Without painting circles ans lines because it's not accurately.


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## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;11884369*
> I can measure perfect control and malfunction speeds by only software method and my hand.


No you can't.
Quote:


> And how can I accurately measure level of prediction? Without painting circles ans lines because it's not accurately.


Theoretically you can test up to what angle the mouse still draws straight line (but not really simply with your hand).


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## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;11884701*
> No you can't.


I can. I register the speed in counts per second by special logger. And after moves I open log file in the editor and scale graph (with special formula depends CPI and polling rate).

recorded movement for [email protected] cpi:









for 400 cpi:









As you can see, movement with 400 cpi is absolutley clear of negaccel, skips, unstability etc. I can move mouse about 3 m/s and get stable graph too, but it's very hard - I can broke my mouse and hand.








Quote:


> Theoretically you can test up to what angle the mouse still draws straight line (but not really simply with your hand).


I know this method. It's not accurately. I feel a little prediction, but dunno is more than MS mice or same. And if more when how much?


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## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;11885016*
> I can. I register the speed in counts per second by special logger. And after moves I open log file in the editor and scale graph (with special formula depends CPI and polling rate).


Ok, that works fairly well for perfect control speed but not really for malfunction speed (depending on how the mouse reacts beyond its perfect control speed).
Allthough comparing it with other graphs would help to "better guess" it.
Quote:


> I can move mouse about 3 m/s and get stable graph too, but it's very hard - I can broke my mouse and hand.


You need some workout.









Quote:


> I know this method. It's not accurately. I feel a little prediction, but dunno is more than MS mice or same. And if more when how much?


It's the only one besides asking the the sensor manufacturer about the algorithm, which they won't give you.

PS: Those graphs look a little bit "flat" for a fast swipe to me.


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## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;11885277*
> Ok, that works fairly well for perfect control speed but not really for malfunction speed (depending on how the mouse reacts beyond its perfect control speed).


It's good for malfunction speed too. Not perfect, but good. When malfunction speed is reached, you can see skips (jump to zero in a peak) and/or very unstable peaks on graph.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;11885277*
> PS: Those graphs look a little bit "flat" for a fast swipe to me.


It's not sensor unstability, it's my movement unstability (my pads width is 437 mm). It's easy to chek.

And, ADNS-3080 just fall to zero when malfunction speed is reached:

http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?MaximumSpeed_en

***

You can record some your mouse movements with my logger, and I can say its negaccel and malfunction speed (if you reach it), if you move it proper.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;11886583*
> It's good for malfunction speed too. Not perfect, but good. When malfunction speed is reached, you can see skips (jump to zero in a peak) and/or very unstable peaks on graph.


What I meant is that you can only "clearly" see where it hits the perfect control speed but dependant on how the sensor performs beyond that speed it can be hard to interpret at waht speed the sensor complety fails, especialy if the malfunction speed is a lot higher than the perfect control speed.

Quote:


> It's not sensor unstability, it's my movement unstability (my pads width is 437 mm). It's easy to chek.


I meant that I find the acceleration a bit low and assumed a faster stop but my fast swipes would be way over 2m/s anyway.
Quote:


> And, ADNS-3080 just fall to zero when malfunction speed is reached:


That's the thing, not all sensor and mice do.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;11888683*
> What I meant is that you can only "clearly" see where it hits the perfect control speed but dependant on how the sensor performs beyond that speed it can be hard to interpret at waht speed the sensor complety fails, especialy if the malfunction speed is a lot higher than the perfect control speed.


I know how to move mouse to get needed graph, and I know how looks a proper graph. If sensor gets unstabale, I clearly see that. I concede that in some cases it maybe hard to detect malfspeed even for me, but I can do another test where I can see this characteristic more clearly. I think I can get accuracy about +/- 0.1 m/s for malfspeed (if it less than 3 m/s).

Real problem for this test is mice with positive accelation and unstable behaviour in all speeds. For example Kinzu.

And of course I CAN'T accurately detect real malfspeed if mouse have negaccel! It's obviously. I can only say that it more or less 3 m/s. Sorry, I only now understand that you mean. English is foreign language for me. Very foreign as you can see.


----------



## foppa

Does the Kinzu have random accel? Or is just just consistantly positive? Is there any way to gid rid of it?


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;11889292*
> English is foreign language for me. Very foreign as you can see.


for me too


----------



## Skylit

http://www.overclock.net/hardware-news/907615-vtz-cm-storm-spawn-review.html

Potentially the first mouse with an Avago ADNS-3090.

Don't really care for the looks/materials of the mouse itself, but it does shed some light on features of the 3090.


----------



## outerspace

My measurement useless for this sheet? Can I or you add them?

Razer Krait have S3088 sensor, not A3088.


----------



## azeg

Hi outerspace, could you tell which softwares you're using to create these negative acceleration test's graphics, and how ?
Nice idea by the way, kudos.


----------



## outerspace

Hi, azeg.

I used mouse logger + converter (convert .bin file to wav) + Adobe Audiacity editor (scale graph in "25400/(CPI*T)" times by amplification).

I can upload logger and converter with my little istructions.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;11923914*
> My measurement useless for this sheet? Can I or you add them?
> 
> Razer Krait have S3088 sensor, not A3088.


I can add them.


----------



## azeg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;11970435*
> I can upload logger and converter with my little istructions.


That would be very nice of you









Skylit : What do you think about adding a negative/positive acceleration column on your Google Spreadsheet ?
E.g. I've read several complaints about the G500 and the Xai having positive accel build in the sensor ; in my opinion it's a deal breaker for gaming.


----------



## outerspace

*azeg*, logger, converter and instructions.


----------



## azeg

Thanks a lot outerspace ; I'll post my mx510 and my WMO 1.1 results once I take the time to finish understanding how an optical mouse and how your calcul method work.


----------



## Tekgun

Could someone tell me why the same sensor has different maximum DPI settings in different mice?
The Avago 9500 in the Logitech G9X is 5700, where as the SteelSeries Xai maximum DPI is 5001.


----------



## Bullveyr

different srom (sensor firmware)


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;11971976*
> I can add them.


You can, but you don't. Why?









And why you don't write level of prediction in sheet?


----------



## outerspace

*A4tech X-710BK*
Sensor: Avago ADNS-3060
CPI/DPI: 100-2000
Perfect Control: over 3 m/s*
Malfunction: over 3 m/s*

*A4tech X-718BK*
Sensor: Avago ADNS-3080
CPI/DPI: 100-3200 (1600 is max for ADNS-3080, 3200 - by interpolation)
Perfect Control: over 3 m/s* @400 CPI, 2.03 m/s @for over 400 CPI
Malfunction: over 3 m/s*

*measurement limit - it can be 3.5 m/s or more.


----------



## outerspace

*azeg*, It's very easy to understand. I can explain it you even with my bad english, I think.


----------



## outerspace

It's mistake in the sheet. X-710BH is analog of 710BK but with "Anti-Vibrate" technology (with very low lift off distance).

*A4tech X-710BH*
Sensor: Avago ADNS-3060
CPI/DPI: 100-2000
Perfect Control: over 3 m/s*
Malfunction: over 3 m/s*

Can you give me rights to edit sheet? For mail with 8sandr8.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12029797*
> It's mistake in the sheet. X-710BH is analog of 710BK but with "Anti-Vibrate" technology (with very low lift off distance).
> 
> *A4tech X-710BH*
> Sensor: Avago ADNS-3060
> CPI/DPI: 100-2000
> Perfect Control: over 3 m/s*
> Malfunction: over 3 m/s*
> 
> Can you give me rights to edit sheet? For mail with 8sandr8.


The sheet has been open to the public for awhile now


----------



## outerspace

I tested new mx518 and my result is same: http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?MaximumSpeed_en#m467129c

In 400 CPI without setpoint malfunction and negaccel speed is at least 3 m/s on Everglide Titan MonsterMat Fnatic Edition. So I edit sheet.

Add info about X8 from http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?MaximumSpeed_en


----------



## outerspace

Who tested Kinzu? Anybody know?

I want to test it with my instruments. But I need helper with this mouse.


----------



## gordesky1

I added the warmouse too the list I think it uses the twin eye but could be tweaks made too it from the warmouse team. Sense i own the mamba and warmouse and together both of them feel like different mice laser wise. Like on my rocketfish mouse pad the mamba has problems tracking on it, But the warmouse don't have one problem on it.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12041377*
> Who tested Kinzu? Anybody know?
> 
> I want to test it with my instruments. But I need helper with this mouse.


I had one, but steelseries was kind enough to take it back and send me an ikari optical.

To put it simple, the mouse malfunctions way before 2 m/s. It's somewhere around 1.35-1.5 m/s from what I can estimate as an individual.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12044628*
> I had one, but steelseries was kind enough to take it back and send me an ikari optical.
> 
> To put it simple, the mouse malfunctions way before 2 m/s. It's somewhere around 1.35-1.5 m/s from what I can estimate as an individual.


Is it defect? Or regular for Kinzu?

Mouse with malfunction speed about 1.5 m/s is almost useless for gaming.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12053224*
> Is it defect? Or regular for Kinzu?
> 
> Mouse with malfunction speed about 1.5 m/s is almost useless for gaming.


It effects every kinzu.

Besides, that:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> - The mouse comes with really bad plastic mouse feet.
> - Sensor has enormous amounts of positive acceleration.
> - Prediction is set high.
> - Bugged drivers. Disabling Windows acceleration through drivers actually makes acceleration issues in game worse.


----------



## ChieFz

ROCCAT Kova[+]
Info ?


----------



## Bullveyr

Same sensor as Roccat Pyra: PixArt PAW3305DK-H
3200 CPI most likely interpolated


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12044628*
> I had one, but steelseries was kind enough to take it back and send me an ikari optical.
> 
> To put it simple, the mouse malfunctions way before 2 m/s. It's somewhere around 1.35-1.5 m/s from what I can estimate as an individual.


Do you want to test your Ikari Optical?


----------



## Conditioned

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChieFz;12064626*
> ROCCAT Kova[+]
> Info ?


Yea I want to know if it has prediction


----------



## outerspace

I try explain to all how work my little instrument. Who know English better than me (my is very bad), please help me correct the text below.

**

Mouse with polling rate 500 Hz send movement data to OS each 2 ms (1/500 Hz = 0.002 s = 2 ms). What kind of data? It's counts.

Example:
If you move mouse with 400 CPI (*C*ounts *P*er *I*nch) for 2 inch, than OS recive 800 counts (400 cpi x 2 inch). Just imagine that in first 2 ms mouse send to OS 200 counts, in second 2 ms - 400 counts, in third - 200 counts. Sum = 200+400+200 = 800 counts.So in first 2 ms mouse moved for: 200counts/400cpi=0.5 inch. In second 2 ms: 400counts/400cpi=1 inch. In third 2 ms: 200counts/400cpi=0.5 inch. So, speed in first 2 ms: 0.5inch/2ms= 0.5inch/0.002s = 250 inch/sec. Speed in second 2 ms: 1inch/2ms= 1inch/0.002s = 500 inch/sec. Speed in third 2 ms: 0.5inch/2ms= 0.5inch/0.002s = 250 inch/sec.

We can record data of mouse movent by loger into the file and convert that file to wav. When we open this file in sound editor we can see time on horizontal axis (with 2 ms step - OS recived data every 2 ms or mouse work with 500 Hz polling rate). On vertical axis we can see counts recived by OS (or sended by mouse). Now we can convert counts to speed in "mm/s". Method described above. Final formula is: 25,4/(CPI*T), where 25,4 = number of mm in 1 inch, CPI - mouse CPI, T - polling rate in seconds (for 2 ms it's 2/1000 = 0.002 seconds).

Example:
For mouse with 400 CPI and 500 Hz (2 ms) it's 25.4/(400*0.002)=31,75. So we should increase scale (amplify signal in audio editor) in 31.75 times (or 3175%) to get "mm/s" on vertical axis.

Now results of real expirements:

One of recorded movements for Logitech G3 mouse:









We can see that sensor fall to zero when mouse reach speed about 2000 mm/sec. You can think that is malfunction speed. But is not accuracy. We can see that sensor start catch surface in about 1600 mm/sec - it's more impotant for us. And after analyse other recorded movments we can shurely say that real malfunction speed on tested surface is about 1500-1600 mm/sec.

One of recorded movements for IMO 1.1a:









In this graph we can see that negaccel speed of IMO 1.1a is about 1500 mm/sec. And when speed reach peak (it's about 2000-2200 mm/sec) cursor speed don't fall to zero as G3. It just get a little lower than negaccel value. It's good.

So, I measure with this simple instruments perfomance of two mouse in specific surface and estimate negaccel speed for MS, and malunction speed for G3. In my opinion 1.1a work better than G3 on this surface.


----------



## outerspace

Some programmer easy can write good and usefull program that use this simple method.


----------



## v193r

Is this true concerning the xai's dpi?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *clownfart;9187769*
> For the DPI make sure you use steps of 90, it's how the sensor was designed. Use w/e is comfortable.


Also why does my xai reset to 500hz everytime i turn off my computer?


----------



## Bullveyr

yep, everything else is interpolated by the MCU

dunno about your polling rate issue


----------



## v193r

so 450 dpi is fine as compared to the interpolated 400dpi.
wat is the recommend hz to run the xai on? like for the ms3.0 and 1.1 its 500hz.


----------



## Bullveyr

jep, 450 CPI is fine

use the pollingrate that feels best for you (smoth, responsive, stable)


----------



## Conditioned

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Conditioned;12087488*
> Yea I want to know if it has prediction


the Kova[+] is using a little prediction. the Kone[+] doesn't use it at all.

from roccat support.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Conditioned;12133310*
> the Kova[+] is using a little prediction. the Kone[+] doesn't use it at all.
> 
> from roccat support.


I knew the Kova + had prediction due to the sensor of choice, but was unsure as to whether roccat included firmware to enable it on the kone+ like other mice with the Avago ADNS-9500.

Unless someone can find/upload a screen, I'll remove the the "can enable" part.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12018965*
> You can, but you don't. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> And why you don't write level of prediction in sheet?*


I can, but I'll have to switch from a number based system to a personal estimate of "heavy, low and moderate" or something along the lines.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12065832*
> Do you want to test your Ikari Optical?


Sorry, I've been busy with school/uni and just glace the thread's when I have spare time. I'll try when I can free up some time









Your logger looks pretty neat though, I'm impressed.


----------



## v193r

Quote:



Originally Posted by *outerspace*


Mouse with polling rate 500 Hz send movement data to OS each 2 ms (1/500 Hz = 0.002 s = 2 ms). What kind of data? It's counts.


as far as i understood this program check for malfunction speed and accel on given surfuce. can it check for interpolated data? like if i set my windows sens to 7. the program will sense that the mouse move 400dpi however the cursor moves extra, thus interpolated. do you have a link to this program?


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v193r;12144859*
> as far as i understood this program check for malfunction speed and accel on given surfuce.


Any mouse test check for malfunction speed and negaccel only on given surfuce. On different surfaces results may be different.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v193r;12144859*
> can it check for interpolated data? like if i set my windows sens to 7. the program will sense that the mouse move 400dpi however the cursor moves extra, thus interpolated. do you have a link to this program?


Logger collect raw data recived directly from mouse. So windows sensitivity doesnt matter. Link to logger, converter and little instructions.


----------



## v193r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12150330*
> Any mouse test check for malfunction speed and negaccel only on given surfuce. On different surfaces results may be different.
> 
> Logger collect raw data recived directly from mouse. So windows sensitivity doesnt matter. Link to logger, converter and little instructions.


MouseLog doesnt work with Win7.


----------



## outerspace

Work on Win7 x86.

Try to find and install Microsoft Visual C++ Redistributable Package x64


----------



## v193r

@SkyLit
In your opinion. What are the best low-medium sens sensors? Also corresponding pad to it. Im guessing the mx518 is out cuz of prediction. da seems like a front runner.


----------



## v193r

Also is it true that any dpi other than in intevals of 90 will give you accel.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *v193r*


@SkyLit
In your opinion. What are the best low-medium sens sensors? Also corresponding pad to it. Im guessing the mx518 is out cuz of prediction. da seems like a front runner.


Low sensitivity 20~inches/360.

*Prediction:*
Mx518
Mx500
Mx300
Ikari Optical - High LoD/Malfunctions early on hard surfaces.
Deathadder 3G w/ Drift control - High LoD
EC 1/2
X-760H
X-710BF
X-718BK/X-748K
X-755K
Salmosa/Salmosa Korean Edition
Naos 3200
Kova/[+]

*
No Prediction:*

Deathadder 3G without drift control - LoD issues
Deathadder 3.5G/Black Edition - High LoD
CM spawn - Most likely same sensor performance as DA with low LoD/better scroll wheel, only problem is shape might be awkward.
Any mouse with the Avago 9500- Positive acceleration on hard surfaces and random pos/neg accel on cloth.

Medium Sens: 10~ Inches/360
*
No Prediction:*

Intellimouse 3.0
Intellimouse 1.1
Wheel Mouse Optical 1.1a

etc~

Moderate prediction is over hyped and mostly just preference. I'll make an exception for the Kinzu and X8.. the correction is pretty bad and noticeable on these two mice.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *v193r*


Also is it true that any dpi other than in intevals of 90 will give you accel.


Uhh.. are you talking about the interpolation with the Xai? Because it depends. I believe Logitech's Avago 9500 SROM is designed in intervals of 100, although, I would set DPI to 900-1800 just to be on the safe side.

The Mx518's is either 80 or 100~

3080= 400-800-1600. 80 or 100.
3080E= 400-800-1800. 100 or 80 interpolated (1800 DPI).

The EC1/2's SROM should be designed with intervals of 100.

I.E. 500-1000-2000, Instead of Avago's standard 400-800. Bullveyr knows more about this than me D:


----------



## v193r

For the DA and its LOD issue is that for all pads? Also, I really didn't notice a problem with LOD when I had my DA 3G on Qck Heavy. Is the LOD really that much?

Also have you heard anything about the Heaton Pad or Zowie Spawn Pad performance wise?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *v193r*


For the DA and its LOD issue is that for all pads? Also, I really didn't notice a problem with LOD when I had my DA 3G on Qck Heavy. Is the LOD really that much?

Also have you heard anything about the Heaton Pad or Zowie Spawn Pad performance wise?


The original DA had the same 3.5/6mm LOD on the QcK.

Quote:



Lift-off distance
Currently the following pads are confirm to have the lift off distances listed below

Wooden table top (yellowish wood): 1.2 mm
fUnc Surface 1030, blue, smooth side: 1.2 mm
Icemat 2nd Edition, black: 1.2 mm
MTW: 1.2 mm
fUnc Surface 1030, blue, rough side: 1.4 mm
Allsop raindrop, black/grey: 2.4 mm
Generic red mousepad: 2.4 mm
Generic green mousepad: 3.6 mm
QcK+, black: 3.6 mm
Steelpad 5l, tested on most of the colours: 3.6 mm
Razer Mantis Control: 4mm
Razer Mantis Speed: 6 mm


http://razerblueprints.net/index.php.../topic,5948.0/

And no, I haven't =x


----------



## v193r

Why isn't this a sticky? It seems to be the most useful mouse related thread.

Also do you think id be worth it for me to get the new da to replace my xai? Does the + accel found in the 9500 overall decrease efficiency/performance?


----------



## outerspace

*v193r*
f0rest dominate in 2008-2009. He was stable top3 in those days. And he played with krait (with "annoying" prediction, and with HIGH sensitivity).

Also, top6 players of 2010 by hltv.org stats:

1. markeloff (XAI) 
2. GeT_RiGhT (XAI and Kinzu in end of 2010)
3. starix (IMO 1.1a) 
4. trace (IME 3.0, he played with acceleration in game) 
5. Edward (Kinzu) 
6. f0rest (Kinzu)

Also Xizt (MVP and winner of IEM5) played with Ikari Optical which also have prediction. Neo played with Kinzu instead of IMO 1.1a and showed good results (stats).

So, you really think what you need replace your XAI?









In my opinion, DA is technically little better than XAI. But XAI is not bad mouse.


----------



## avinin1

Quote:



Originally Posted by *outerspace*


*v193r*
f0rest dominate in 2008-2009. He was stable top3 in those days. And he played with krait (with "annoying" prediction, and with HIGH sensitivity).

Also, top6 players of 2010 by hltv.org stats:

1. markeloff (XAI) 
2. GeT_RiGhT (XAI and Kinzu in end of 2010)
3. starix (IMO 1.1a) 
4. trace (IME 3.0, he played with acceleration in game) 
5. Edward (Kinzu) 
6. f0rest (Kinzu)

Also Xizt (MVP and winner of IEM5) played with Ikari Optical which also have prediction. Neo played with Kinzu instead of IMO 1.1a and showed good results (stats).

So, you really think what you need replace your XAI?









In my opinion, DA is technically little better than XAI. But XAI is not bad mouse.


I pretty doesn't like the examples, these guys can perform well with any mouse you can imagination, and them all sponsored by SteelSeries.
but, you know..if you get used to something, you will perform good with it.

like when I got the mx518, I HATED IT, but when I get used to sweat in my hand non-stop when using it and get used to the heavy prediction, I just perform well with it, the score on deathmatch say it all.


----------



## outerspace

mx518 have light prediction.









And yes, I agree that pro can perform well with any mouse. But, many people noticed f0rest lose some skill when he changed krait to kinzu.

So, I think on amateur level you can play good with almost any mouse.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *outerspace*


mx518 have light prediction.









And yes, I agree that pro can perform well with any mouse. *But, many people noticed f0rest lose some skill when he changed krait to kinzu.*

So, I think on amateur level you can play good with almost any mouse.


http://faq.steelseries.com/questions...cceleration%3F

lols


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12186050*
> http://faq.steelseries.com/questions/194/Does+the+Kinzu+have+mouse+acceleration%3F
> 
> lols


Holy crap....... Is Steelseries trolling?







I never thought I would see SS defend acceleration after preaching about how horrible it is for gaming.

Well umm hurrrrrrrrrr we can't fix this defective sensor so ummm errrr derrrrp the defectiveness is a FEATURE!!!!!!!


----------



## v193r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp;12186148*
> Holy crap....... Is Steelseries trolling?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never thought I would see SS defend acceleration after preaching about how horrible it is for gaming.
> 
> Well umm hurrrrrrrrrr we can't fix this defective sensor so ummm errrr derrrrp the defectiveness is a FEATURE!!!!!!!


Rofl. Im very not sure why they went this route. However pros are using it despite the accel. The only conclusion i can assume is that pro arent pro in choosing mice.


----------



## v193r

Prehaps you can put which mouse have +/- accel.


----------



## GanjaSMK

Any chance on having information for the OCZ Behemoth?!


----------



## dmxdex2020

The mionix is listed as light. Yet its 158g with a cable. That is extremely heavy.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020*


The mionix is listed as light. Yet its 158g with a cable. That is extremely heavy.


wrong thread?


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GanjaSMK;12200023*
> Any chance on having information for the OCZ Behemoth?!


Philips twin-eye (PLN 2030), that's all you need to know.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Wouldn't it be better to have the sheet sorted alphabetically??


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;12207703*
> Wouldn't it be better to have the sheet sorted alphabetically??


Alphabetically as in each mouse, or by brand?

If I have enough time, I'll be able to sort it by brand, but individually can get confusing, at least IMO.


----------



## Kragarmendes

By brand.
Sounded like you agreed, so I just did it - no need to do things like that manually


----------



## dmxdex2020

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12201271*
> wrong thread?


I was commenting on how its light. That is on the list of specs.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;12200214*
> The mionix is listed as light. Yet its 158g with a cable. That is extremely heavy.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;12208211*
> I was commenting on how its light. That is on the list of specs.


Except, I didn't list the weight here







I believe you are referring to this thread.

http://www.overclock.net/mice/786643-overall-mouse-user-comparison-rating-finding.html


----------



## GanjaSMK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;12207456*
> Philips twin-eye (PLN 2030), that's all you need to know.


Yeah I don't know if thats good or bad, care to share?!


----------



## bushwakko

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Skylit*


Except, I didn't list the weight here







I believe you are referring to this thread.

http://www.overclock.net/mice/786643...g-finding.html


According to that page the top mouse is the X8 which has HUGE jitter issues afaik and the Imperator getting a high rating, despite of Z-axis problems and dynamic dpi (which is basically hardware acceleration on slow+ speeds)... I wouldn't trust that rating at all


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *bushwakko*


According to that page the top mouse is the X8 which has HUGE jitter issues afaik and the Imperator getting a high rating, despite of Z-axis problems and dynamic dpi (which is basically hardware acceleration on slow+ speeds)... I wouldn't trust that rating at all


That list is not really a fact sheet, but a user generated list based on personal preference/knowledge. I know it's somewhat flawed, but it gives users a chance to voice thier opinions on mice they've used and I guess that's somewhat better than me telling people that they use a flawed mouse.. :|

And yes, I'm fully aware of all the problems the x8's bluetrack and PTE sensor have









Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


By brand.
Sounded like you agreed, so I just did it - no need to do things like that manually










Thanks, looks good !


----------



## bushwakko

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12232573*
> That list is not really a fact sheet, but a user generated list based on personal preference/knowledge. I know it's somewhat flawed, but it gives users a chance to voice thier opinions on mice they've used and I guess that's somewhat better than me telling people that they use a flawed mouse.. :|


Fair enough









On a different note though, it would be awesome to have some more columns on the table in this thread, to somehow include the various problems with the mice in addition to prediction. Like jitter and on what pads, dynamic dpi (which is hugely annoying) and ofc any other gripes. The list is awesome though! However I couldn't edit it at all by following the link.

edit: maybe even a "comments" column, so one could just add some info that doesn't fit in a specific column.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bushwakko;12232614*
> Fair enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On a different note though, it would be awesome to have some more columns on the table in this thread, to somehow include the various problems with the mice in addition to prediction. Like jitter and on what pads, dynamic dpi (which is hugely annoying) and ofc any other gripes. The list is awesome though! However I couldn't edit it at all by following the link.
> 
> edit: maybe even a "comments" column, so one could just add some info that doesn't fit in a specific column.


That sounds good, I'll be happy to expand this list with more columns if it helps the community.

Oh and are you sure you couldn't edit? Click on Google spreadsheet> and then click on edit this page at the bottom of the screen.

Pretty sure this list is still open to the public.


----------



## bushwakko

Ah! I found the "edit this page" thing now. But I'd like to come to an agreement before just editing away, and adding new colunmns. For example it'd be nice to have either a jitter column that could be "none", "on cloth", "on hard pad" etc. or we could have a "jitter on cloth" and "jitter on hard pad" column with either yes or no in them. Also, the "perfect control" name is a little misleading, since a mouse might track perfectly at 5m/s but fail miserably at 0,5m/s (as my imperator does because of dynamic dpi, and all the jittery mice does). I feel that accurate/unaccelerated slow movement is also important in many games. Any input here would be nice!

I also have a specific question as well. I've seen on this page: http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?MaximumSpeed_en#a82dcc80 that the g9x seems to track very well all the way up to 6m/s in a fairly straight line, but I've also read that all the 9500 sensors have positive acceleration. Doesn't that graph actually contradict that? I am confuse! (on the experience pad the line seems a little wavy, is this accel?)


----------



## v193r

I have an interesting thing to note. About jitter, on my mx518 and im sure results can be replicated with other mice. So what happened was I had a small desk and had to rotate my doormat...opps i meant qck heavy sideways(vertically). I played like this for a while then I tested my malfunction speed for the first time and found it to be pretty low. What happened specifically is if i move my mouse at a certain speed, the Xhair would jump to the sky or floor. It came to me to rotate the mousepad to the original position and then i couldn't hit the malfunction rate as hard as I tried.


----------



## outerspace

Just for fun, guys.

These two devices cost equally:


















1st is Razer Detadder. 2nd is MSI H55M-P31 motherboard. Technically motherboard is much much much more complicated. Only one chipset or video chip is much more expensive than DeathAdder mouse. But both devices market-price is about $80.

It's realy funny.


----------



## Kragarmendes

I find
http://www.overclock.net/mice/786643-overall-mouse-user-comparison-rating-finding.html
to be pretty subjective as well. That's why my suggestion would be to keep this one as objective as possible or at least at a sensible compromise between objective and subjective.

I further suggest adding columns (after Angle Snapping/Prediction) for:

LOD (Lift-Off Distance) [mm]
Z-Axis Tracking
Jitter
Dynamic Resolution Scaling
Other Issues

Weight [g]
(Comments)

I think Perfect Control (maximum speed without neg./pos. accel.) is good as it is, mainly because it is defined like that on ESR and it is at least somewhat objective without being too complicated and confusing. If there are special cases of acceleration like bushwakko mentioned, they could be described in the Other Issues column along with any other unlisted problem.

Weight is not really sensor related, however, I find it highly important for evaluating the feel of a mouse and it is easily measured objectively. If not stated otherwise, the weight should be given as value WITHOUT cable









I suggest that - where available - the source of any information shall be noted in a comment to the respective field. Since on OCN the comments of the Google Spreadsheet are added below as some legend, we might want to decide on some common "tags" (comments) so the "legend" won't grow extensively. This could look something like:
Perfect Control/Malfunction Speed: "user measurement"/one of these: http://www.overclock.net/11620260-post35.html
Weight: "vendor specs"/"user measurement"/URL

We could also decide to include some kind of custom legend within the Spreadsheet so anybody could edit the explanations so far given only in Skylit's post.

Now, that all sounds a bit complicated but I think it only is when you try to describe the changes instead of applying them







If some of you agree, I would just go ahead and edit the sheet. Don't wanna hijack but Skylit has mentioned several times now, that his time is limited









*Edit:* Great -.- Didn't know there was a auto-save on the spreadsheet! So now everything I had planned has been changed already, sorry 'bout that...
Let me know what you think about it nonetheless :-/


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;12270342*
> I find
> http://www.overclock.net/mice/786643-overall-mouse-user-comparison-rating-finding.html
> to be pretty subjective as well. That's why my suggestion would be to keep this one as objective as possible or at least at a sensible compromise between objective and subjective.
> 
> I further suggest adding columns (after Angle Snapping/Prediction) for:
> 
> LOD (Lift-Off Distance) [mm]
> *Z-Axis Tracking*
> Jitter
> Dynamic Resolution Scaling
> Other Issues
> 
> Weight [g]
> (Comments)
> 
> *Edit:* Great -.- Didn't know there was a auto-save on the spreadsheet! So now everything I had planned has been changed already, sorry 'bout that...
> Let me know what you think about it nonetheless :-/


It looks good, although I think we could ditch the z-axis column since its only an issue with one type of sensor (PTE).


----------



## Kragarmendes

Ok, z-axis is removed again. How about the dynamic scaling is that an issue for sensors other than the PTE?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;12271693*
> Ok, z-axis is removed again. How about the dynamic scaling is that an issue for sensors other than the PTE?


That and jitter could be written on the "other issues" Tab, Infact, you can just rename that to "Notes/Issues" or anything that comes to mind.


----------



## v193r

I was bored so tested the LOD on my Xai and MS3.0 and found them both to have 1.2mm(1 CD) LOD. I tried this on my wooden desk, 9HD, and Qck Heavy.


----------



## dmxdex2020

You gotta love these forums.


----------



## v193r

Do you think the LOD is the same for every mouse with the Avago-9500? My Xai's LOD is 1CD as I set on the spreadsheet.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v193r;12330153*
> Do you think the LOD is the same for every mouse with the Avago-9500? My Xai's LOD is 1CD as I set on the spreadsheet.


Not sure.

My G500 Required 2 CD's.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v193r;12330153*
> Do you think the LOD is the same for every mouse with the Avago-9500? My Xai's LOD is 1CD as I set on the spreadsheet.


No, it depends on the setting and ofc the surface.


----------



## Ufasas

Other great mouse with adns-3060 - a4tech ak-47


----------



## dmxdex2020

Does the avago 6090 have any negative or positive acceleration? Does this sensor have angle snapping?


----------



## Bullveyr

I would say: no / no / your choice


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;12332693*
> Does the avago 6090 have any negative or positive acceleration? Does this sensor have angle snapping?


Not really, but If you can reach speed of above 1.6 you'll get negative accel.
angle snapping sets low - so, no.

edit:bullyveyr pass me


----------



## dmxdex2020

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1;12332797*
> Not really, but If you can reach speed of above 1.6 you'll get negative accel.
> angle snapping sets low - so, no.
> 
> edit:bullyveyr pass me


So it doesnt get accel on cloth or hard surfaces? i forgot to ask that lol.


----------



## Tator Tot

This thread is a great service to the community and is now stickied.

Please, everyone, keep up the good work.


----------



## v193r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tator Tot;12368795*
> This thread is a great service to the community and is now stickied.
> 
> Please, everyone, keep up the good work.


Yay, Ive been waiting for this.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;12330930*
> No, it depends on the setting and ofc the surface.


Ok, Im going to try different setting and different pad to test my results.

@Skylit
Do the same with your G500 and report back.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *v193r*


Yay, Ive been waiting for this.


If you have any other threads that you think need to be a Sticky in the Components sub-forum, please PM me and I will review them


----------



## Kragarmendes

I did some testing with the DeathAdder 3G I got from eBay.
Ufortunately, I don't have any good mouse pad available atm. So I just used some milled cardboard like this:









All done @1800CPI.
Blue is mouse x-axis, red is mouse y-axis and unit is mm/s based on the sensor counts.
First a fast (as fast as I could on 30cm) swipe to the right and slowish pulling back to the left @500Hz:








There is some simulated FPS playing (couple of 180Âº turns) @500Hz:








The red line clearly indicates that I am using the firmware (1.37) without prediction









Something similar with crosses indicating data points @125Hz:








Last some high-speed circles (~5 circles/s) to show polling rate limits (circles will have edges) @125Hz:


----------



## predatora

hi guys 
i wonna ask a few things and will be very grateful if someone can help. 
My old mouse was Logitech G1, now a have Xai, but it looks like its hard for me to get the same amount of sensitivy and acceleration in game like i used to play with G1, so here im asking for your help, with G1 i used to play with: 6/11 windows sensitivy, 3/11 setpoint sensitivy ("setpoint implementation" is on) ,acceleration set to "low" and ingame sensitivy "3". Now can someone help me what shoud be in theory XAI setting to get the same amount of speed and acc. I now that G1 laser has angle prediction, so i can turn it on in XAI, but i dont know from 1 to 10 how much ?
10x for all kind of help


----------



## Conditioned

Id try the firmware before that, seems 137 has skipping.


----------



## outerspace

*Kragarmendes*
What an ugly jumps in peaks?

In some mice it happens when polling rate is above than mouse can provide. On 125 Hz all good, so DA cant provide real 500 Hz? It's strange...


----------



## polymath

hello everyone, i just joined this site







, pretty much because of this thread, it's very helpful and informative







. i've just edited some info on the powerlogic alien g9, i used to have that mouse but it's already sold now


----------



## Kragarmendes

When I have the time, I'll do some more runs with another surface and another firmware. However, I recall it didn't look any better (possibly worse) with the 1.27 firmware it came shipped with. Naturally, I bought it used but it is in good condition.
It is also quite picky on the surface with some horrible effects like jaggy tracking, jitter and cursor trailing on printed paper, for example. On good surfaces, however, it works flawlessly apart from the spikes that I doubt would be noticeable without the plots.
There must be plenty of others with an old DA around (it is supposed to be the best sensor after all). Anybody care to share their experiences?

Welcome polymath, the Alien G9 seems to be an interesting mouse. Too bad, it is not available around Europe.


----------



## bushwakko

Quote:



Originally Posted by *azeg*


That would be very nice of you









Skylit : What do you think about adding a negative/positive acceleration column on your Google Spreadsheet ?
E.g. I've read several complaints about the G500 and the Xai having positive accel build in the sensor ; in my opinion it's a deal breaker for gaming.



I'd like to refresh this discussion. I still don't see any info on this in the spreadsheet, so according to the sheet the s9500 mice looks awesome, but most people and around the web (ariekanarie.nl/archives/231/the-problem-with-gaming-mice) seems to agree.


----------



## Ufasas

any1 tried spawn mouse ?


----------



## Kragarmendes

*@bushwakko:* The way it is, (regular) neg accel is pretty much taken account for in the Perfect Control column. That should do for most mice imo.
Whatever individual issues (jitter, dynamic resolution scaling, z axis tracking, 125Hz lock, etc.) or peculiar accel issues (Kinzu?, pos accel) there are, can be addressed in the "Other issues" column.
I find that a good scheme to keep it from getting too cluttered. Those who disagree, speak up








So all you need to do, is to add the intel based on your experience or a source. I suggest to start with the ones you know about and let others be inspired to report on theirs.

Keep in mind that not everything depends on the sensor. However, if people read that say three PTE mice have jitter and more, they'll probably draw the necessary conclusions without us marking every single PTE mouse as jittery.

*@Ufasas:* This guy says he has:
http://www.cmstorm.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9353&postcount=11


----------



## bushwakko

*@Kragarmendes*: Ok, I get that neg accel is accounted in perfect control (because the "dropoff" manifests as negative accel right?). But in the case of the G5(xx) series (or all 9500) there seems to be a positive accel issue, is this something we should include?


----------



## Kragarmendes

Yes, include it. You could write "positive acceleration" or something like that in the "Other issues" column. I wouldn't recommend creating an extra column for positive acceleration because the problem is not relevant for all mice but if you think that's a good idea, do it and see what people think about it. At least that's how I understood Skylit intended it.

From what I have read, the positive acceleration mice like the Xai comes into play only at high speeds. But it is good to have the info so everybody can decide for himself.

If you own a A9500 mouse, you could even measure acceleration by using the tools discussed in this thread in combination with Excel or OOcalc to sum the recorded mouse counts.

What you would have to do is define a fixed length (e.g. your mouse pad), put it on an elevated position, so the mouse would only track on the fixed length. Then you move the mouse across twice. Once with low speed and once with high speed. The counts reported by the mouse should altogether be equal for each run. There should only be a difference as in the time they are reported in. If the run with high speed turn out with more counts than the other, you have positive acceleration of some sort; if it's less, negative.
Interesting thought... I will try that with my [email protected] when I find the time ^^

Of course, there will be errors if you don't move in a straight line (a guiding ruler could help) and it will be more complicated to take the y-axis into account (Pythagorean theorem should help).


----------



## bushwakko

I don't own any of the 9500 mice. I'm just interested making the list as accurate as possible, I wouldn't want anyone to look at the list and decide that the 9500 mice look perfect (on paper) for later to discover some annoying positive accel


----------



## Maxadus

Anyone know the dimensions(size) of the old World of Warcraft MMO mouse, the one that uses the 6090 avago sensor? I can't find the dimensions on the internet. Oh and will it do 400dpi? I'm reading that the dpi steps are like 800,1200,1600,2000,2400,3200.


----------



## Conditioned

Skylit: you still dont know what sensor is in black edition?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *conditioned;12517774*
> skylit: You still dont know what sensor is in black edition?


s3888.


----------



## Ufasas

damnit, so A3090 gonna have jittering


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas;12520145*
> damnit, so A3090 gonna have jittering


Why Assume? My S3888 works perfectly fine.


----------



## Ufasas

http://www.cmstorm.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9353&postcount=11

was talking about this one :S

btw, there's a small mistake, on the sheet 2 mice are mentioned twice:

A4Tech X718BK/X-748K
A4Tech X718BK/X-748K


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas;12520671*
> http://www.cmstorm.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9353&postcount=11
> 
> was talking about this one :S
> 
> btw, there's a small mistake, on the sheet 2 mice are mentioned twice:
> 
> A4Tech X718BK/X-748K
> A4Tech X718BK/X-748K


Ahh, that sucks. Might just be a specific pad though.

Also, I just noticed that reference [1]

http://sokupochi.com/game_device/mousesensor/

Looks like a direct copy of this thread. I don't mind if it is copied, although I don't understand how it can be a reference at the same time.

I'm only suspicious because I previously estimated "1.5m/s ?" malfunction listed for the kinzu. Those results aren't based on any graph or test unless someone actually used outerspace's logger and I happen to have guessed right.

Another similarity is the Zowie Ec1/Ec2. The "2.23m/s?" I listed isn't the exact malfunction rate, although I suspect it to be slightly higher due to Zowie's custom SROM. I took those results from ESR's MS2007 test on the A4tech X7 X-710BF since they both use the same ADNS-3060 sensor.

Again, it doesn't bother me since this should be public information, although I also don't want people recording the wrong information or results


----------



## Kragarmendes

I had tried to correct the double A4Tech X718BK/X-748K entry. Looking around I found that sokupochi site and it seemed to have some info on that. However, I double checked with an older local copy of *our* sheet I had made some time and that was more like it but not quite right either I think.
On www.x7.cn itself, you'll find the following:

*3200dpi*
X-748K
X-738K
X-718BK

*2000dpi*
X-755K
X-718BF
X-718F
X-718
X-710BK
X-710BH
X-710MK
X-705K

AK-47
X-710FS
X-705FS
X-766FS
X-755FS

*1000dpi*
X-710F
X-710MF
X-710BF
X-710
X-708
X-705F

So now I just assumed "1000DPI" and "2000DPI" are Avagao 3060 and "3200DPI" is 3080. Hope that's not too far from the truth


----------



## outerspace

All X-7x8 have 3080. All X-710 - 3060. Dont know about 708 and 705.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12529339*
> Also, I just noticed that reference [1]
> 
> http://sokupochi.com/game_device/mousesensor/
> 
> Looks like a direct copy of this thread. I don't mind if it is copied, although I don't understand how it can be a reference at the same time.


For a4tech he JUST COPY my results... It's incorrect copy cuz 3 m/s is only my measuerment limit, NOT real malfuntion speed... But he (copier) didnt note that.

So sokupochi.com cant be rference for shure.


----------



## cuad

Added lift-off distance / weight / comments for the Logitech g9. I have a question tho. I've heard that the MX518 doesn't track as well as the WMO at 400 CPI. Is this true? If so, why? and if so, at what CPI will the MX518s sensor perform best, and how do I determine that for other sensors (like the one used by the g9).


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cuad;12545077*
> Added weight / comments for the g9. I have a question tho. I've heard that the MX518 doesn't track as well as the WMO at 400 CPI. Is this true? If so, why? and if so, at what CPI will the MX518s sensor perform best, and how do I determine that for other sensors (like the one used by the g9).


The 518 has a much higher perfect control and malfunction rate.

The WMO will show noticeable negative acceleration past 1.5m/s while the 518 loses perfect control at or around the WMO's malfunction rate of 2.10m/s. The 3080 was built for 400 and 1600 CPI steps although newer iterations of the sensor (3080E) scale up to 1800 CPI. Logitech Drivers are somewhat glitchy with the 3080E and actually lower the PC and MR's, so it's advised not to use them. Concerning polling rate, that can be bumped manually.


Sensor performance: 518> WMO
IF you don't want mouse correction: WMO>518
Lift off distance: WMO>518
Quality: 518>WMO
Weight: wmo 79g, 518 106g (preference).


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12547642*
> (...)
> Concerning polling rate, that can be bumped manually.
> 
> (...)


http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=4
is a good start to understand polling rate overclocking which can be a huge advantage like with a WMO.
However, in the case of the MX518
http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=14
the rates are not affected since it has got a 16bit data path anyway. So it won't suffer from negative acceleration due to the 125Hz.
Also, not all mice are overclockable. Some just respond at 125Hz no matter what you set it to with hidusbf.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;12553380*
> Also, not all mice are overclockable. Some just respond at 125Hz no matter what you set it to with hidusbf.


Some mouse cant provide high polling rate even if they reporting that they do. You can see fake polling rate on specail graphs like I (and you) did above or if you analyze report rates.


----------



## ChieFz

ROCCAT Kova [+]

I have tested it at 125Hz, 250Hz (at 500Hz and 1000Hz video) I can say that is worse at 250 and 125 (Hz). SrollBug amazing, and still not releasing any new firmware.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8241/img3797v.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2941/sgddfg.png





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTaWR8iYZ8g[/ame[/URL]]


----------



## Kragarmendes

Hey OCN,

I have tried to compile information as to how examine various mouse issues using Paint and/or some mouse count logger as described by outerspace.
Feel free to contribute and discuss.
Here is what I found (for some reason I was too lazy to capitalize, bear with me







):

*PAINT*
prediction/angle snapping: draw straight lines (horizontal/vertical) at high speed. see if they are perfect or real. try to find maximum prediction free speed.

interpolation: draw straight lines (horizontal/vertical) at medium-high speed. see if small steps are done as one pixel.

jitter: draw diagonals at low-mid speed. see if there are steps.

malfunction rate: (might want to lower windows sens) move horizontally at mid-maximum speed. see if cursor follows or jumps. try to find maximum speed w/o abnormal behaviour.

acceleration: (might want to lower windows sens) move mouse an exact distance at an exact and constant angle - once at low, once at high speed. see if cursor moves the same distance. try to find maximum speed w/o acceleration.

tracking precision: specify mouse reference point. move mouse away, draw circles, return to reference point. keep the angle of the mouse as steady as possible (avoid turning the mouse). see if the cursor returns to the same spot. try different speeds.

LOD: put CDs between mouse and surface left and right of the sensor. determine number of stacked CDs needed to stop tracking (1CD ~1.2mm).

z axis tracking: lift and return mouse without moving it. see if cursor stays reasonably in one place.

*COUNTS PLOT*
prediction/angle snapping: unnaturally constant count rates (vertical line: x=0; horizontal line: y=0).

interpolation: count rate > 1 on non-moving axis (vertical line: x-axis; horizontal line: y-axis)

jitter: count rates > 1 at low speeds?

malfunction rate: quick swipes/flicks will show as huge bumps/hills in the count rate. when malfunction rate is hit, the count rate _usually_ drops to zero somewhere on the ascending slope).

acceleration: if you move solely on one axis, you can sum up the counts of both runs and see as to how they coincide or differ.

tracking precision: convert all x and y counts so that they inculde their absolute (turn minus to plus). then calculate the distance for each sample using: d = sqrt( x^2 + y^2 ). if you sum up all distances, you will get the travelled distance. now if you sum up all the original x counts and y counts seperately (without taking the absolute) and then calculate d_error = sqrt(sum_x^2 + sum_y^2), you should get a smaller value (ideally zero). 2nd_value/1st_value*100 should give you the difference in percent.

smoothness: move mouse at constant speed (draw circles!). convert all x and y counts so that they inculde their absolute (turn minus to plus). then calculate the distance for each sample using: d = sqrt( x^2 + y^2 ). the d rate (distance travelled per time aka speed) should be constant.

edit: Let me know if this should rather be a separate thread.


----------



## aGeno

CM Spawn jitters ?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aGeno;12624889*
> CM Spawn jitters ?


After the latest firmware flash, yes, but that's entirely cooler masters fault.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aGeno;12624889*
> CM Spawn jitters ?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12625127*
> After the latest firmware flash, yes, but that's entirely cooler masters fault.


Just wow..... CM and mice don't mix well. I have been waiting for the spawn to be available in the US for a long time but I might just have to wait longer for the Valor unless CM fixes it.


----------



## mosi

ahem, someone messed with the DPI value of the first mouse in the spreadsheet


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mosi;12643934*
> ahem, someone messed with the DPI value of the first mouse in the spreadsheet


What was it previously? I'm unaware of the CPI settings on A4tech mice.


----------



## mosi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12645216*
> What was it previously? I'm unaware of the CPI settings on A4tech mice.


No idea, sorry

Wondered about this dynamic dpi scaling entry in the sheet for the mamba and dug a big deeper. Patchnotes for mamba firmware 1.08 state dynamic DPI scaling was kicked out in favor of some "advanced tracking algorithm".

Anyone knows what that thing actually does better/worse? Couldn't find anything around anywhere except some people complaining it still felt odd to them.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;12625127*
> After the latest firmware flash, yes, but that's entirely cooler masters fault.


Don't know Skylit's source but on ESReality jitter was reported from firmware 108 on. Since the mouse is so new, it might have been there before and nobody noticed.
With firmware 108a (latest?) diamond shaped circles @800CPI+500Hz have been reported (angel snapping: OFF).

All the same I agree that CM doesn't seem to utilize the sensor at its best.


----------



## cuad

Added a little bit of data for Razer Deathadder 3.5G.

It'd be great if there were some way for a user to pick two mice and read comparisons. Just had that idea because the comments I left for the deathadder are all in comparison to my g9.


----------



## Maxadus

Can anyone tell me how well the "PixArt PAW3305DK-H" sensor performs? I was thinking of getting the Roccat Kova[+].....Also I hear the first Roccat Kova has some problems with windows 7, could someone tell me more about that? Thanks.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maxadus;12672153*
> Can anyone tell me how well the "PixArt PAW3305DK-H" sensor performs? I was thinking of getting the Roccat Kova[+].....Also I hear the first Roccat Kova has some problems with windows 7, could someone tell me more about that? Thanks.


http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1965958
and
http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2021049
might help


----------



## Maxadus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;12672388*
> http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1965958
> and
> http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2021049
> might help


Nice, thanks.

Also does anyone know what sensor the Mionix Saiph 1800 uses? And is it good?


----------



## Bullveyr

Cypress OviationONS like the Ikari Laser


----------



## Maxadus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;12677950*
> Cypress OviationONS like the Ikari Laser


Thanks, and also, will the software for the mionix saiph 1800 allow you to change the polling rate of the mouse as well? I really like 125hz or 500hz polling rate better then 1000hz.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Maxadus*


Thanks, and also, will the software for the mionix saiph 1800 allow you to change the polling rate of the mouse as well? I really like 125hz or 500hz polling rate better then 1000hz.


Don't really know but it looks like you can't change it in the software:
http://www.testfreaks.com/blog/revie...-gaming-mouse/


----------



## Ufasas

now have been playing with abyssus for 4-5 days, 2 months ago i bought it and played with it for 10 days, and couldn't get used to it, so i put it away, now i took it again to give it 2nd try, well, this mouse is really nice for fingertip style players, as i am too, need some time to get used to the mouse shape, i've got medium size hands, after longer playing my palm hurts, i am using razer goliathus speed omega mouse pad, mouse is set to 450 dpi + 1000mhz, compared to ak-47 from a4tech, abyssus is precise as hell, no prediction, haven't tried other razer mice, but hell, i don't wanna even think about other razer now, old DA, or new DA, after 2nd try of 5 days abyssus feels very comfortable now, feel good control in game, and i get more frags too


----------



## outerspace

For a4tech mice with letter "K" in model name you can set any CPI with step 50. For each mouse you can set cpi more than native sensor cpi by interpolation. For example for X-718B*K* you can set 100-3200 cpi with step 50 cpi. But maximum native cpi for adns-3080 is 1600. CPI above it - interpolation. So I'll edit sheet and please dont touch it.

I doubt what any perfomance different is present between 600 cpi and 400 or 800 for X-718bk (with ands-3080). Never mind about "interpolation" for any CPI before max native CPI for sensor.


----------



## avinin1

*crappy kids!
*Skylit - you should make it private editor and let only the people you trust to edit it (password and such).

some1 remember what's the a4tech models were?
*argh.*


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *avinin1*


*crappy kids!
*Skylit - you should make it private editor and let only the people you trust to edit it (password and such).

some1 remember what's the a4tech models were?
*argh.*



Lol, Hillarous. I can roll back though.

Edit: Maybe I will make permissions. That kid will just do it again me thinks.

Yeah, currently disabled due to vandalism. I'll be doing a major rehaul this week and will be giving permissions to certain people.

If somethings wrong or if you would like to add something just post in this thread.


----------



## dmxdex2020

Does anybody have the steelseries ikari? what is it like? The sensor i have never heard of before. Is it anygood? is it very accurate?


----------



## EarlZ

Whats a good mouse pad for the Philips TwinEye?


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;12789452*
> Does anybody have the steelseries ikari? what is it like? The sensor i have never heard of before. Is it anygood? is it very accurate?


http://www.overclock.net/mice/706033-ikari-xai.html
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EarlZ;12789834*
> Whats a good mouse pad for the Philips TwinEye?


http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/609953-razer-mamba-what-mouse-pad.html
possibly:
http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/635200-post-your-mouse-settings-5.html#post8021468


----------



## runeazn

Logitech G9 jitters on fabric mousepads aka cloth mousepads


----------



## EarlZ

Quote:



Originally Posted by *runeazn*


Logitech G9 jitters on fabric mousepads aka cloth mousepads


I also have the Logitech G9 and it never jitters on the Goliathus mouse pad.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020*


Does anybody have the steelseries ikari? what is it like? The sensor i have never heard of before. Is it anygood? is it very accurate?


Which version?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EarlZ*


Whats a good mouse pad for the Philips TwinEye?


Any of the Cooler Master pads from their Storm Tactics line work well. I personally use the FPS Storm Tactics pad (because it came with my Storm Sentinel Advanced.)

I gave the SSA away and use a G500 now. I didn't like the overall shape of the SSA. Otherwise it was a good mouse.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *runeazn*


Logitech G9 jitters on fabric mousepads aka cloth mousepads


My G500 does not. It could be something wrong with your pad or some dust in your sensors way.


----------



## runeazn

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Which version?

Any of the Cooler Master pads from their Storm Tactics line work well. I personally use the FPS Storm Tactics pad (because it came with my Storm Sentinel Advanced.)

I gave the SSA away and use a G500 now. I didn't like the overall shape of the SSA. Otherwise it was a good mouse.

My G500 does not. It could be something wrong with your pad or some dust in your sensors way.


how could i clean it ?


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *runeazn;12792800*
> how could i clean it ?


cotton swab & rubbing alcohol.


----------



## runeazn

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


cotton swab & rubbing alcohol.


you tell me to put a piece of cotton in that tiny hole is possible?


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *runeazn*


you tell me to put a piece of cotton in that tiny hole is possible?


I've done it with mine.

It just needs to whipe the surface clean.

You could take mouse apart and clean it that way.


----------



## GTR Mclaren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tator Tot;12802936*
> I've done it with mine.
> 
> It just needs to whipe the surface clean.
> 
> You could take mouse apart and clean it that way.


with these ??


----------



## Tator Tot

Yep, you can use those; but the head is generally to big.

Cotton Swab/Ball is soft and malleable so it can fit up in the smaller holes and clean easier.


----------



## Kragarmendes

You can also use a tooth pick in combination with the cotton.
It's really not all that difficult.


----------



## aGeno

the cm spawn still jitters or did coolermaster fix it ?


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aGeno;12825038*
> the cm spawn still jitters or did coolermaster fix it ?


they (CoolerMaster), actually working on a fix right now:
"Dear Storm Spawn owners,

I just had a reply back and I can inform the following information:

Cooler Master/Cooler Master Storm is known with the problem(s). They are working on it on a very serious way. Cooler Master/Cooler Master Storm is not sure when the update/firmware will be released. "We are asking to wait patience and we are putting in all the effort to solve the problem(s) as fast as possible".

For everyone in this Forum thread: I keep you guys updated with the latest news!

Also I would like to know if you have a certain problem; you can send me a private message. Also you can send your problem to: [email protected]

I will pass on the information to Cooler Master/Cooler Master Storm.

Thanks!"

[]http://www.cmstorm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2595&page=4]


----------



## avinin1

update - CM realease new firmware for the Spawn, people replies says that Its fix the jitter but now they notice ton of positive accelration, and also the LoD bug is still there and some says that the 800dpi feels like 1800cpi (800cpi broken/gone-depending on firmware).

and some says that the mouse still show some jitter issue.

dont know what to decide exctly - but look like CM need to continue make power-supplies and cooler systems.
Argh, poor customers.


----------



## EarlZ

Whats this angle snapping all about, especially on the Logitech G700 mouse ?


----------



## cuad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EarlZ;12893551*
> Whats this angle snapping all about, especially on the Logitech G700 mouse ?


Pretty sure that it means if you move your mouse across your mouse pad at an angle below below x degrees above the horizontal, your mouse will assume that you were trying to move in a straight line and it will do that. This should apply to all directions.










Guess which mouse has more prominent angle snapping.


----------



## CMCarter

Hi Guys,

I am with CM Storm, and we are aware of the issues. We are trying our hearts out to get this right. This is the first mouse to use this new Avago 3090. We are having issues with the LOD but the latest firmware has fixed most issues outside of that. We are exploring the idea of having to refine a new lens but hoping we can counter LOD with firmware.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *CMCarter*


Hi Guys,

I am with CM Storm, and we are aware of the issues. We are trying our hearts out to get this right. This is the first mouse to use this new Avago 3090. We are having issues with the LOD but the latest firmware has fixed most issues outside of that. We are exploring the idea of having to refine a new lens but hoping we can counter LOD with firmware.


So you are the guy who says your company uses Europeans as guinea pigs before they release in the US, right?

Generally, it's appreciated if companies show they care for their customers.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CMCarter;12906131*
> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am with CM Storm, and we are aware of the issues. We are trying our hearts out to get this right. This is the first mouse to use this new Avago 3090. We are having issues with the LOD but the latest firmware has fixed most issues outside of that. We are exploring the idea of having to refine a new lens but hoping we can counter LOD with firmware.


Is it true that you have delayed the shipment of the spawn to the US because of the firmware problems?


----------



## EarlZ

Sensor wise, how would you guys rank it from top to bottom ?


----------



## PUKED

Could someone tell me how to use the mouse logger program on page 7? I get how to record mouse movement, but when I open Audition I'm completely lost.


----------



## dmxdex2020

Can the naos 5000 be used in a claw grip style? I do claw alot with some palm.

I also hear that the G500 has uneven weight balance. How many weights would you need to put in the front or back to get it correctly balanced? also which weights to use?


----------



## PUKED

Okay, I figured it out. Main problem was that I was trying to use Audacity instead of Audition.

Here's some better instructions for Adobe Audition:
1) Click the Edit button on the toolbar.
2) Hit the File tab, and pick Import File, choose Vx_Vy_NF.wav
3) Click Edit File
4) Click on the effects tab and pick Amplify/Fade (process)
5) Untick "View all setting in DB" and enter the amplification percentage
6) Right click on the right guide and choose Sample Values
7) Zoom with the mouse wheel until things look right.

Hope that helps, took me a while to get it.

edit: attached a spreadsheet that calculates the Amplification % to use


----------



## PUKED

Sorry for the double post, but here some test data for the MX310 and the Gigabyte M6900 I upgraded to:
MX310 sensor = Avago ADNS-S2020
M6900 sensor = Pixart PAW3305DK-H

MX310 @ 433hz and 400dpi:









MX310 @ 433hz and 800dpi:









M6900 @ 1000hz and 400dpi:









M6900 @ 1000hz and 1600dpi:









It jitters under normal movement and it freaks out when you hit the movement limit, what a great upgrade









Does anyone with a Roccat Kova+ notice the same thing? Maybe Gigabyte just screwed up the firmware.

edit: also here's a flick shot comparison at 800dpi


----------



## outerspace

*PUKED*
You can find some explanations and instructions on page 9. But I think you dont need it now. 

Both graph are look strange for me. In mx310 graph I see some regular drops. M6900 graph have jumpings (1300 to 1900 to 1300 mm/s). I think what 1000 Hz is just too high for "Pixart PAW3305DK-H". Graph means what you cant get real 1000 Hz with this mouse.

I wonder how you reach 3500 mm/s speed.  It's all right with your hand?

update: I think it's something wrong with with your usb. I see some strange drops also on M6900 graph. Zoom graphs for better visibility of sample points.

***

I very want to test kinzu's sensor. But I dont want buy it just for test. I hope that somebody help me some time.


----------



## PUKED

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12982379*
> I wonder how you reach 3500 mm/s speed.  It's all right with your hand?


Lol, I just got rid of my keyboard and mousepad and swiped it across my desk like a maniac.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12982379*
> Both graph are look strange for me. In mx310 graph I see some regular drops. M6900 graph have jumpings (1300 to 1900 to 1300 mm/s). I think what 1000 Hz is just too high for "Pixart PAW3305DK-H". Graph means what you cant get real 1000 Hz with this mouse.


Is that why the movement doesn't return back down to the baseline every other count? No other mouse in this thread seemed to have such weird input.

Unfortunately it's stuck at 1000hz though, I can't set it to anything else with the windows hack and the drivers don't let me change it either.

Also I see what you mean about my USB having problems, I'll try it on my laptop later.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Don't know where to start









@dmxdex2020: I'll try to tell you when mine arrives







When I tried it, it felt really good because of its low profile.
The G500 has a hugely off-center sensor position. Be sure to test if that's your style before you get it.

@outerspace: Don't think 3.5m/s is a problem if you *wanna* do it. However, anything above 1.5-2m/s is far beyond my natural gaming









@PUKED:
First off, may I ask what is your source of the M6900 having the Pixart PAW3305DK-H? So far, the ever only mentioning I have seen about this is Bullveyr's post in this thread. I even tried asking Gigabyte directly but they wouldn't tell me saying it is some kind of secret









A sensor being stuck at 1000Hz sucks imho. If not in general then because of the higher CPU load. However, that kinda approves of it being the Pixart since I have read of the Pyra having the same property.

A MS-paint picture of the reported jitter would also be nice.

*About the graphs:*
You should have a look (in the .log file) how far the sample points are apart timewise (e.g. 0.001s, 0.002s, 0.008s). This might tell you if the 1000Hz are real. Would also be nice if the graphs showed the time axis.

What I find most disturbing is the huge negative acceleration (clipping) of the M6900, and it's so ironic since it's supposed to be 1000Hz. Even if it still had an 8bit-sensor, it should do way better @1000Hz (like the old MS-mice). One could argue that 1.5m/s is enough for gaming if you are not too far into low-sense but it just doesn't make any sense.

I'd be really interested to see comparable graphs with a Pyra or Kova[+]. Manufacturers should just include these graphs in their marketing









*About the MX310:*
433Hz is a strange polling rate. I assume you manually overclocked the mouse. What value did you set it to? There are cases where, if you overclocked your mouse too high, it would report with irregular polling rate. So if you looked at a tool only reporting the maximum or average poling rate you might get something like 433Hz whereas actually the polling rate is jumping around. This would also match the regular drops to zero seen in your graphs. You should definitely have a go with 250Hz and see if the drops to zero disappear.

The M6900's drop in the flick-shot is probably sensor related or tracking was lost due to a slight unintentional lift-off.

Generally, your desk is possibly not the optimal surface for testing your sensors for flawless behaviour


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;12992796*
> @PUKED:
> First off, may I ask what is your source of the M6900 having the Pixart PAW3305DK-H? So far, the ever only mentioning I have seen about this is Bullveyr's post in this thread. I even tried asking Gigabyte directly but they wouldn't tell me saying it is some kind of secret


http://bbs.jetcos.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3496
Quote:


> A sensor being stuck at 1000Hz sucks imho. If not in general then because of the higher CPU load. However, that kinda approves of it being the Pixart since I have read of the Pyra having the same property.


The Polling Rate doesn't have anything to do with the sensor.
Quote:


> What I find most disturbing is the huge negative acceleration (clipping) of the M6900, and it's so ironic since it's supposed to be 1000Hz. Even if it still had an 8bit-sensor, it should do way better @1000Hz (like the old MS-mice). One could argue that 1.5m/s is enough for gaming if you are not too far into low-sense but it just doesn't make any sense.


It sensor itself actually has a 8bit serial port (like almost every sensor) but again that doesn't have anything to do with the polling rate


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;12992796*
> You should have a look (in the .log file) how far the sample points are apart timewise (e.g. 0.001s, 0.002s, 0.008s).


You can see it just by zooming the graph.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;12992796*
> This might tell you if the 1000Hz are real. Would also be nice if the graphs showed the time axis.


Horizontal axis on graphs is time axis with 1 ms step.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PUKED;12989913*
> Is that why the movement doesn't return back down to the baseline every other count? No other mouse in this thread seemed to have such weird input.


With real 1000 Hz you should see clear range withot jumpings.

Ideal pciture for each polling rate (I paint only points or "sample points" as I called them above):


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;12993164*
> http://bbs.jetcos.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3496


Thanks!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;12993164*
> The Polling Rate doesn't have anything to do with the sensor.


Fine. Makes it even more strange though and not any less annoying








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;12993164*
> It sensor itself actually has a 8bit serial port (like almost every sensor) but again that doesn't have anything to do with the polling rate


Ok, I assume "sensor" was not the correct wording. What I meant was, that this this kind of clipping used to show up on mice with 8bit data path (one sample would never exceed +-128 counts) and a default polling rate of 125Hz which equals a maximum speed of ~1m/s @400CPI.
To have a limit of 1.5m/s @1600CPI, even if it had a 8bit data path, you would have to have a polling rate equal to or below 738Hz, right? (150/2.54*1600/128). Pretty sure this neg. acceleration has other reasons - just calculating








Either way, if it's not the sensor, looks like Gigabyte pretty much messed up the firmware/MCU or what else could it be?
On the bright side... Can I expect the graphs would look better for a Pyra/Kova[+]?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12994053*
> You can see it just by zooming graph.


Could have sworn the horizontal axis labels hadn't been there when I first checked








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12994053*
> Horizontal axis on graphs is time axis with 1 ms step.


For this purpose, I still find it more convenient to have a look at the log instead of counting 20 samples between the grid lines. How would you do that reliably if the whole gap counts only 40 pixels...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;12994131*
> Ideal picture for each polling rate (I paint only points or "sample points" as I called them above)


I don't get this picture. With each mouse and every polling rate I have tested, the counts never dropped to zero while I was moving the mouse. At least not in the .log-file. Maybe that's different with the .bin-file, or Audition or the converter is "filling" the gaps with zeros. But that's all not necessary if you use a decent tool for plotting and import the samples straight from the log.

Code:



Code:


Time,ms  XY

   1376.8174
   1378.8144
   1380.8143
   1382.8143
   1384.8164


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13000638*
> Either way, if it's not the sensor, looks like Gigabyte pretty much messed up the firmware/MCU or what else could it be?
> On the bright side... Can I expect the graphs would look better for a Pyra/Kova[+]?


Dunno, there are many things you can mess up.
I'll try to find some time to make some tests with the Dharma DRM26.


----------



## outerspace

*Kragarmendes*, if you use .wav file and sound editor you can get MUCH more graphic (or visual) picture of sensor behavior. With it you can easy to see real polling rate, how accurate sensor in some situations etc. without any calculations. I dont understand about what "counting 20 samples" you talk. You can easy see *all possible things* in .wav file just by zooming and scaling. log-file is not such graphic if you dont add some additional calculations and flexible zooming/scalling feature.


----------



## dmxdex2020

From these two pics am i palm or claw or abit of both? the mouse im holding is my new Zowie EC1. Also would you say my hand size is small, medium or large?

http://img34.imageshack.us/i/210tk.jpg/

http://img69.imageshack.us/i/209jl.jpg/


----------



## Greensystemsgo

sub'd.


----------



## dmxdex2020

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Greensystemsgo;13010543*
> sub'd.


what?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;13013963*
> what?


Thread tools > Subscribe to this thread.


----------



## dmxdex2020

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp;13015932*
> Thread tools > Subscribe to this thread.


Is that what he said lol.


----------



## cuad

sup.

I went to Fry's today, grabbed an IME 3.0 and brought it over to the scales to measure its mass. I tested without the mass of the cable on at least 5 different scales and got results from 86 grams all the way to 117 grams.

Puzzling, but better than nothing.


----------



## Genome852

Wanted to add that the Zowie EC2 has a problem:

From someone elses thread:
Quote:


> This is where my EC2 failed big time. Zowie specifically used a special lens to lower the lift off distance on their EC series of mice and claim a lift off distance of around 1.5mm. My Ec2? It seems to have two stages of lift off, if I lift it up it stops tracking the surface at the advertised distance but then a little bit higher it starts tracking the surface again to idiotic heights....I get cursor movement up until 9.6mm. Fail.


Also, thanks for making this spreadsheet. Very useful.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;13006576*
> I'll try to find some time to make some tests with the Dharma DRM26.


So you got it in the end. Congratulations







Let us know how you like it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13007307*
> *Kragarmendes*, if you use .wav file and sound editor you can get MUCH more graphic (or visual) picture of sensor behavior. With it you can easy to see real polling rate, how accurate sensor in some situations etc. without any calculations. I dont understand about what "counting 20 samples" you talk. You can easy see *all possible things* in .wav file just by zooming and scaling. log-file is not such graphic if you dont add some additional calculations and flexible zooming/scalling feature.


I'm afraid you are misunderstanding me. If I am interested in the polling rate, I check the log. Figuring out e.g. 1376.8 - 1378.8 = 2 is not much of an calculation, is it? For everything else, I do like to use graphical means. However, I find audio software a nice trick but not quite as useful as something of the likes of these which I also used for my DA plots.
Now as long as I am limited to PUKED's pictures, there's not much zooming around, is there? In these pictures the grid comes in units of 20ms (on ~40pixels) so I'd have to check for 20 samples in one square... That's why I asked PUKED to have a look.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;13010443*
> From these two pics am i palm or claw or abit of both? the mouse im holding is my new Zowie EC1. Also would you say my hand size is small, medium or large?


I guess you are the best to answer that...
http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijfs/vol1n2/hand.xml
http://www2.razerzone.com/MouseGuide/html/palmgrip.php


----------



## chadrew

Has anyone done any tracking tests like these on Roccat Kova+? Thanks.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13020739*
> So you got it in the end. Congratulations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let us know how you like it.


Actually I have it for more than 3 months but didn't even open the box yet.


----------



## Kragarmendes

G you must be busy! So how come you still find the time to post on forums?


----------



## Bullveyr

When I got it I had some problems with my wrist, so I didn't play and obviously didn't want to test a mouse with a hurting wrist.

When my wrist got better I more or less forgot I had the mouse (I had allready put it into the locker).
Atm when I start up the computer I think that I could test the mouse but then I think: " screw it, I just wanna frag".









PS: posting on forums when ther isn't really much work in the office


----------



## dmxdex2020

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13020739*
> So you got it in the end. Congratulations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let us know how you like it.
> 
> I'm afraid you are misunderstanding me. If I am interested in the polling rate, I check the log. Figuring out e.g. 1376.8 - 1378.8 = 2 is not much of an calculation, is it? For everything else, I do like to use graphical means. However, I find audio software a nice trick but not quite as useful as something of the likes of these which I also used for my DA plots.
> Now as long as I am limited to PUKED's pictures, there's not much zooming around, is there? In these pictures the grid comes in units of 20ms (on ~40pixels) so I'd have to check for 20 samples in one square... That's why I asked PUKED to have a look.
> 
> I guess you are the best to answer that...
> http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijfs/vol1n2/hand.xml
> http://www2.razerzone.com/MouseGuide/html/palmgrip.php


I have looked at that and am unsure really. What do you think? It does look more claw.


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;13022052*
> I have looked at that and am unsure really. What do you think? It does look more claw.


you are both, your plam is on the mouse, but your finger has more "claw" way.


----------



## dmxdex2020

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1;13027119*
> you are both, your plam is on the mouse, but your finger has more "claw" way.


Dont have a clue which damn mouse i should use then as the DA and zowie are not comfy and things like the roccat kone plus are not comfy to hold. I am looking at the coolermaster spawn but im not sure that will be the right mouse as you said i have claw. I will say some of you palm does make contact when clawing. The back of my hand contacts the back of the mouse. Im sure i am a claw. That is according to the razere grip guide.


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;13027321*
> Dont have a clue which damn mouse i should use then as the DA and zowie are not comfy and things like the roccat kone plus are not comfy to hold. I am looking at the coolermaster spawn but im not sure that will be the right mouse as you said i have claw. I will say some of you palm does make contact when clawing. The back of my hand contacts the back of the mouse. Im sure i am a claw. That is according to the razere grip guide.


the way that someone holds the mouse is not the only thing that should be thinking of.

you should also think about the way you play (how you move the mouse) how your finger sit on the mouse, play style and how big is your hand size.

since all the mouse you report are big and design in the "plam" way and was no comfortable to you enough.
I'd say you need more claw design mouse (Xai, Abyssus, Spawn) / plam design but small size (Valor?).


----------



## dmxdex2020

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1;13027555*
> the way that someone holds the mouse is not the only thing that should be thinking of.
> 
> you should also think about the way you play (how you move the mouse) how your finger sit on the mouse, play style and how big is your hand size.
> 
> since all the mouse you report are big and design in the "plam" way and was no comfortable to you enough.
> I'd say you need more claw design mouse (Xai, Abyssus, Spawn) / plam design but small size (Valor?).


I have a xai and cannot get used to it either. But i also couldnt get use to a diamond back 3g. So i out it down to the fact im not an ambidexterious person. Mice that are dead straight dont work for me. I need ergonomic.

The valor looks huge in lenth. The valor does look and sound very good though. I have been thinking about the spawn.

And too let you know i move my mouse with my wrist only left and right. That is how claw grippers do it.


----------



## biltong

I have a cybersnipa stinger.

I recorded some movements with your mouselogger but I don't have anything to open them with, so if someone would be so kind as to make the graphs for me, the .wavs are attached. DPI = 1400, polling rate = 1000hz.

Also, it seems this mouse does have angle snapping or w/e it's called:









Anything else I can add?

EDIT: DPI ranges from 400 to 3200.


----------



## PUKED

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biltong*


I recorded some movements with your mouselogger but I don't have anything to open them with, so if someone would be so kind as to make the graphs for me, the .wavs are attached. DPI = 1400, polling rate = 1000hz.


Here you go:








Decent, looks like it has a real 1000hz polling rate occording to outerspace.









And here it is skipping like crazy at 2m/s, tracking seems pretty solid until you hit that point though.


----------



## Bullveyr

Sounds quite reasonable for a A6010 mouse (depending on mousepad).


----------



## PUKED

Okay, I found some more time to test this thing out again.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


*About the graphs:*
What I find most disturbing is the huge negative acceleration (clipping) of the M6900, and it's so ironic since it's supposed to be 1000Hz. Even if it still had an 8bit-sensor, it should do way better @1000Hz (like the old MS-mice). One could argue that 1.5m/s is enough for gaming if you are not too far into low-sense but it just doesn't make any sense.


Yeah, I'm pretty okay with 2m/s, I rarely ever hit that. This is my main problem, anything over 1m/s with this thing is a crap shoot:








Oddly when I tried it on my laptop it acted exactly the same, but every once in a while it would bust out one of these:








I think this mouse just really, really wants to be at 500hz.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


*About the MX310:*
433Hz is a strange polling rate. I assume you manually overclocked the mouse. What value did you set it to? There are cases where, if you overclocked your mouse too high, it would report with irregular polling rate. So if you looked at a tool only reporting the maximum or average poling rate you might get something like 433Hz whereas actually the polling rate is jumping around. This would also match the regular drops to zero seen in your graphs. You should definitely have a go with 250Hz and see if the drops to zero disappear.


It's set to 500hz but 433 is the most is can really do. This is what it looks like at 250, seems to match up with Outerspace's graph:









Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


The M6900's drop in the flick-shot is probably sensor related or tracking was lost due to a slight unintentional lift-off.
Generally, your desk is possibly not the optimal surface for testing your sensors for flawless behaviour










I've tried on a couple different mouse pads and on my laptop too, results are always the same sadly.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


A MS-paint picture of the reported jitter would also be nice.


I take that back, it actually tracks really well in paint, there's no jitter and only a little prediction. 1600dpi is definitely the max it can do though, anything above that and the interpolation is pretty noticeable.


----------



## biltong

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PUKED;13033474*
> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decent, looks like it has a real 1000hz polling rate occording to outerspace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is skipping like crazy at 2m/s, tracking seems pretty solid until you hit that point though.


Thanks







I <3 this mouse, the only problem is that it only lasts about a year or so before a wire breaks or it just conks out. This was done on a cloth mat BTW, here is a link.

I doubt I ever move my mouse that fast anyway


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmxdex2020;13027321*
> Dont have a clue which damn mouse i should use then as the DA and zowie are not comfy and things like the roccat kone plus are not comfy to hold. I am looking at the coolermaster spawn but im not sure that will be the right mouse as you said i have claw. I will say some of you palm does make contact when clawing. The back of my hand contacts the back of the mouse. Im sure i am a claw. That is according to the razere grip guide.


The CM Storm Spawn should be relatively good for clawers with all the palm grip mice around. You might also have a look at the Mionix Naos. It is fairly big as well but a good deal lower in hight.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *biltong;13028676*
> I have a cybersnipa stinger.
> 
> I recorded some movements with your mouselogger but I don't have anything to open them with, so if someone would be so kind as to make the graphs for me, the .wavs are attached. DPI = 1400, polling rate = 1000hz.
> 
> Also, it seems this mouse does have angle snapping or w/e it's called:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anything else I can add?
> 
> EDIT: DPI ranges from 400 to 3200.


Try Audacity or get a proper analyst software like Octave.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PUKED;13033738*
> Okay, I found some more time to test this thing out again.
> 
> Yeah, I'm pretty okay with 2m/s, I rarely ever hit that. This is my main problem, anything over 1m/s with this thing is a crap shoot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oddly when I tried it on my laptop it acted exactly the same, but every once in a while it would bust out one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this mouse just really, really wants to be at 500hz.
> 
> It's set to 500hz but 433 is the most is can really do. This is what it looks like at 250, seems to match up with Outerspace's graph:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried on a couple different mouse pads and on my laptop too, results are always the same sadly.
> 
> I take that back, it actually tracks really well in paint, there's no jitter and only a little prediction. 1600dpi is definitely the max it can do though, anything above that and the interpolation is pretty noticeable.


The 500Hz graph does look much better indeed!
Did you actively change the polling rate somehow? I can't imagine how it would change spontaneously by itself. Not impossible but fairly strange, I would say








On
http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/gigabyte_m6900_m6980_review,5.html
the gui to change polling rate for the M6980 can be seen. Is there no such thing for the M6900? Also, which tool did you use for manual USB overclocking? Some tools mess up more than they fix









I was already planning to get a PixArt-based mouse. If there is no jitter and a way to get it to work @500Hz, it looks decent and I might stick to the plan









*MX310:* Ok, 250Hz looks normal. Probably the safer/more stable setting to use.


----------



## PUKED

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13048886*
> The 500Hz graph does look much better indeed!
> Did you actively change the polling rate somehow? I can't imagine how it would change spontaneously by itself. Not impossible but fairly strange, I would say


Did it all by itself, and it's only happened twice so far. Even weirder the speed it hits there is what other mice that use this sensor are supposed to get.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13048886*
> On
> http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages..._review,5.html
> the gui to change polling rate for the M6980 can be seen. Is there no such thing for the M6900? Also, which tool did you use for manual USB overclocking? Some tools mess up more than they fix


The m6900 one is completely different and really basic. Tool I used is HIDUSB.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13048886*
> I was already planning to get a PixArt-based mouse. If there is no jitter and a way to get it to work @500Hz, it looks decent and I might stick to the plan


The one Bullveyr has actually looks sweet as hell:



IE1.1 shape, top isn't all shiny plastic, choice between 500 and 1000hz, and I think it's the only pixart mouse out there with a centered sensor.

The pixart sensor seems decent though, no jitter, only a little prediction, LOD <2mm, and it's supposed to be able to hit 3m/s at 1600dpi. Impossible to tell if there's acceleration though with all the skipping.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13048886*
> MX310: Ok, 250Hz looks normal. Probably the safer/more stable setting to use.


That max speed though D:


----------



## cuad

Bought myself a WMO 1.1a. (It came in a bag!)

It's soooo light compared to the Deathadder omggggg!

Also got an IME 3.0, will be seeing how it compares to the DA.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *cuad*


Bought myself a WMO 1.1a. (It came in a bag!)

Added weight. (88g) It's soooo light compared to the Deathadder omggggg!


The WMO 1.1a weighs 79g (at least on my scale).

Can you take a picture of it weighing 88g?


----------



## cuad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;13065757*
> The WMO 1.1a weighs 79g (at least on my scale).
> 
> Can you take a picture of it weighing 88g?


I use an analog/mechanical(?) scale in oz, estimate and convert. But 1 oz = 28 grams so it's easy to be off by a lot. I went to Fry's just now with my DA, IME 3.0 and WMO and put them all on a digital scale multiple times. Results I got were roughly 80g 95g and 110g for the WMO, IME and DA 3.5G.

So yes your original data is more accurate. I changed it back. It's gonna be interesting though when someone sees my measurement for the DA3.5G at 110, and the measurement for the DA3G at 133, lol.


----------



## dmxdex2020

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cuad;13066732*
> I use an analog/mechanical(?) scale in oz, estimate and convert. But 1 oz = 28 grams so it's easy to be off by a lot. I went to Fry's just now with my DA, IME 3.0 and WMO and put them all on a digital scale multiple times. Results I got were roughly 80g 95g and 110g for the WMO, IME and DA 3.5G.
> 
> So yes your original data is more accurate. I changed it back. It's gonna be interesting though when someone sees my measurement for the DA3.5G at 110, and the measurement for the DA3G at 133, lol.


Thats odd as the DA 3.5 felt heavier to me over the DA 3G.


----------



## cuad

In that case I believe the 133 measurement is wrong. I put the DA on the scale multiple times, and at different levels of uh.. cable interference and didn't get a measurement over 115 (between 105-115) grams unless there was lots of cable being measured as well.

I put the mouse on the scale upside down. It helps reduce the impact of the cable's mass imo.


----------



## EarlZ

What would be the best mouse pad for an Avago 9500 based sensor? I wanted to go and try the Puretrak Talent but it seems that the 9500 would work better on hard surface as skylit has posted..


----------



## Kragarmendes

Mionix Propus seems highly optimized for an A9500.

[edit]--------------------
It is still pretty new. So user opinions are rare. There are a few reviews though
http://www.overclock.net/mice/953521...l#post12579940
Especially
http://www.pureoverclock.com/review.php?id=1223&page=4
since they list a couple of references for the Naos 5000's S.Q.A.T utility (not just a gimmick imo).
I am only worried it might roll up like a ROCCAT Sota on the long run but only time will tell.
Have the mouse but not the pad btw


----------



## EarlZ

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


Mionix Propus seems highly optimized for an A9500.


Anyone else see this as a better option over the PureTrak Talent on the A9500.


----------



## aGeno

coolermaster fixed the jitter on the spawn mouse ?


----------



## Phos

So there was some back and forth about the Roccat Kova[+], is there any verdict on the quality of its sensor?


----------



## hfcobra

How is the weight coming for the chart? I can add some weight settings for the G500 if you need some help. I dont know how to avoid adding the wire weight in with the mouse though other than holding it which seems a bit inaccurate. Any tips?


----------



## cuad

Quote:



Originally Posted by *hfcobra*


How is the weight coming for the chart? I can add some weight settings for the G500 if you need some help. I dont know how to avoid adding the wire weight in with the mouse though other than holding it which seems a bit inaccurate. Any tips?


I put the mouse upside down on the scale.


----------



## hfcobra

I will do that then.


----------



## Kragarmendes

I did a follow-up to my DA plots

Unfortunately, it is still no professional surface but this time one of those plastic desk mats (finely grained somehow).

This is with a Deathadder 3G @500Hz and 1800cpi.
Using the same firmware 1.37 only with the different surface didn't change anything:









However, with the new firmware 1.39 (surprised there are still new ones coming







), things look a lot better:


----------



## cuad

Nice graphs.


----------



## PUKED

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos;13212536*
> So there was some back and forth about the Roccat Kova[+], is there any verdict on the quality of its sensor?


Not really, I think the tests here say more about Gigabyte's firmware than the sensor.


----------



## hades99

http://cgi.ebay.de/HADES-Ares-H1-Plus-Optical-Gaming-Mouse-/370503715094?pt=M%C3%A4use_Tastaturen&hash=item5643be0916

what do think of this mouse guys?

im interested in the sensor this mouse is using , someone has more infos about it?

think Bullveyr already was talking about this one in the beginning here...

// i am in the mood to buy a new mouse in the next few days, at the moment it will me be puretrak valor ... i think the BEST palm mouse on the market, also concerning the sensor avago 3090 with diffrent lens, and not such problems as the Spawn has.//

greets marc


----------



## webstar

Can anyone do those graphs for Xai and Deathadder 3.5G at 1800Dpi and 500Hz?

EDIT: Also, might not be the right place for it, but has anyone else with P67 chipset had issues with polling rate being unstable? I notice the polling rate getting lower when I move the mouse slower and see some kind of "stuttering" like when the mouse is at 125Hz. I didn't have such problems on my old pc with an older chipset.


----------



## PUKED

Quote:



Originally Posted by *webstar*


I notice the polling rate getting lower when I move the mouse slower


That's pretty normal, the stuttering doesn't sound right though. What are you seeing exactly?


----------



## Kragarmendes

Intuitively I would say this sounds like a means implemented by the mouse manufacturer to reduce jitter (time-equivalent to dynamic CPI scaling??). Then again, if it wasn't there on an older board, that's not very likely. Did you possibly update your mouse firmware at some point between switching boards? Have you tried the mouse on another PC yet?


----------



## EarlZ

In corded mode, how good is the razer orochi ?


----------



## webstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PUKED;13315049*
> That's pretty normal, the stuttering doesn't sound right though. What are you seeing exactly?


Have you tried playing on 125Hz, and then switching to 500Hz? On 125Hz, I can definitely see some kind of "stuttering" which could be connected to 8ms of update time, and on 500Hz I don't notice it. Not sure how can I explain differently. The only problem now is that after changing my mobo for the latest chipset I'm getting that same kind of "stuttering" when polling rate is 500Hz.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13316320*
> Intuitively I would say this sounds like a means implemented by the mouse manufacturer to reduce jitter (time-equivalent to dynamic CPI scaling??). Then again, if it wasn't there on an older board, that's not very likely. Did you possibly update your mouse firmware at some point between switching boards? Have you tried the mouse on another PC yet?


I haven't updated firmware at any point. Xai doesn't have any other firmware except 1.4.2, IMO1.1, IME3.0 and MX518 don't even have firmware updates. Those are all the mice I tried both on my new and old pc.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Did you check what kind of polling rate you get?
Like with
dx_mouse_timer_dialog.exe
or
MouseMovementRecorder.exe

Or even better, you simply do some plots with outerspace's logger and some audio/analysis software.

Then you should get a clear picture of how the mouse counts are reported to your OS.


----------



## Maxadus

Anyone know if theres any problems with cloth pads using the Microsoft Sidewinder x3 (which uses the Avago ADNS-6010 sensor)?


----------



## Madstrike

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maxadus;13355480*
> Anyone know if theres any problems with cloth pads using the Microsoft Sidewinder x3 (which uses the Avago ADNS-6010 sensor)?


I have the sidewinder x3, great mouse btw. I have a hard mouse pad(steelseries 4HD) it was the first hard one I got and it works great, it just glides on it, dunno bout cloth pad though, sorry.


----------



## KenRayadon

Does anyone know what kind of a sensor this mouse has?








It's the "old" Saitek Cyborg mouse.


----------



## Maxadus

Does anyone know if theres any difference between the regular logitech mx518 and the korean gamer edition of the mx518? Or are they the same?


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maxadus;13366551*
> Does anyone know if theres any difference between the regular logitech mx518 and the korean gamer edition of the mx518? Or are they the same?


http://www.gotgames.com.au/forums/hardware-133/my-new-mouse-mx518-81245/


----------



## JohnDProb

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13597681/Vx_Vy_NF.wav

if someone would be so kinda to grab my stats from that i dont have an audip program installed atm

if someone grabs this for me can the info be added to
\\/
mouse Cyborg R.A.T. 7

sensitivity 25-5600dpi


----------



## KenRayadon

I just got a message from Mad Catz support, the sensor family used on the Saitek Cyborg "plain" mouse (not the RATs, the first one that was resizeable) can be found here:

http://www.cypress.com/?id=3057

Interestingly, this (likely) is the same sensor as the SteelSeries Ikari Laser.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *JohnDProb*


if someone would be so kinda to grab my stats from that i dont have an audip program installed atm
[...]
sensitivity 25-5600dpi


You can use Audacity Portable, so you don't even need to install anything








So which cpi and polling rate did you actually use for the recording??


----------



## JohnDProb

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


You can use Audacity Portable, so you don't even need to install anything








So which cpi and polling rate did you actually use for the recording??


5600 and you dont get to set your polling rate


----------



## Kragarmendes

I had a look and at first glance it looked like the polling rate is adjusted dynamically (500 or 1000Hz).
If you drop the "mouse.log" file, I will try to get some plots up.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Anyone knows which sensor's in the Tt eSports Azurues?


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13547007*
> Anyone knows which sensor's in the Tt eSports Azurues?


No confirmation, but I heard it was the Avago ADNS-3080


----------



## cuad

Went to Fry's today. Got the mass of 5 mouses: Ikari laser, RAT 5, G700, NAOS 5000 and the intellimouse optical.


----------



## Tyson86-88

What is the sensor of Zowie Mico?
http://www.zowiegear.com/component/content/article/175-introducing-the-zowie-mico


----------



## PUKED

Unknown, but going by the specs it looks like a pixart.


----------



## Maxadus

Does anybody know if the NZXT Avatar has on board memory? Or do you have to keep the software running to save macros/dpi settings? Also what about the double clicking issue, has this been resolved yet? Can anyone tell me more about the double clicking issue? Thanks

Edit: Yea from what I'm reading the double click issue is bad with this mouse....


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tyson86-88*


What is the sensor of Zowie Mico?
http://www.zowiegear.com/component/c...the-zowie-mico


PixArt PAN3305DK-H

http://www.techbang.com.tw/posts/573...se-market-test


----------



## Kragarmendes

How can they, in this day and age, design a mouse with less than five buttons?
Even if it is marketed as a minimalistic approach, there should be no less than five imo!

Edit: Any noteworthy difference between the PAN and PAW PixArt?


----------



## DarthBaiter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cuad;13576528*
> Went to Fry's today. Got the mass of 5 mouses: Ikari laser, RAT 5, G700, NAOS 5000 and the intellimouse optical.


Interested in what you think of the Wireless.















Also would like to know which was the last wireless mouse you had, if any,as a reference.

TIA









Joe


----------



## outerspace

*Skylit*, can you give me access to edit sheet? My mail is "sans.."


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13618502*
> *Skylit*, can you give me access to edit sheet? My mail is "sans.."


Done.


----------



## CMCarter

For anyone still having issues with the CM Spawn. Please find the following.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20368...D+Firmware.zip

These are TRY AT YOUR OWN RISK. As with any firmware, flashing is involved and can "Brick" your mouse if not done correctly.

Please download at the following link.

Cliffs:

30a - Fixes surface issues as well as DPI issue
31/32- These are same as 30a but with LOD enhancements. Please test which ones work for you.

From personal testing, I recommend F/W version 32.

Sorry for the delay!


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CMCarter;13645069*
> For anyone still having issues with the CM Spawn. Please find the following.
> 
> http://www.gamefront.com/files/20368...D+Firmware.zip
> 
> These are TRY AT YOUR OWN RISK. As with any firmware, flashing is involved and can "Brick" your mouse if not done correctly.
> 
> Please download at the following link.
> 
> Cliffs:
> 
> 30a - Fixes surface issues as well as DPI issue
> 31/32- These are same as 30a but with LOD enhancements. Please test which ones work for you.
> 
> From personal testing, I recommend F/W version 32.
> 
> Sorry for the delay!


Any news on when the mouse will be available in the US???


----------



## CMCarter

Now that its fixed. We are waiting on the stock, look for it at the VERY beginning of July.

See the picture below for confirmation on fix.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/firmware32.jpg/

We also have LOD < 2mm


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CMCarter;13647468*
> Now that its fixed. We are waiting on the stock, look for it at the VERY beginning of July.
> 
> See the picture below for confirmation on fix.
> 
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/firmware32.jpg/
> 
> We also have LOD < 2mm


Thanks for this.


----------



## Fir3ball

I know that Mionix Saiph 3200 has the same Cypress sensor
as Ikari laser.
But Saiph 1800 has the same sensor as 3200?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fir3ball;13653707*
> I know that Mionix Saiph 3200 has the same Cypress sensor
> as Ikari laser.
> But Saiph 1800 has the same sensor as 3200?


Hmm. It's seems that there are a couple options here.

They could have either:

Used the same sensor in both the 3200 and 1800 and capped the maximum resolution.
Or
They're using the CYONS2000(1)-LBXC 1600 CPI rated sensor scaled up to 1800 CPI.

http://www.cypress.com/?id=3057&pagenum=all#parametric
Looking at this spec sheet, it seems that the original OvationONSI got upgraded to 30G accel.

Bullveyr can correct me if I'm giving you the wrong information


----------



## Maxadus

edit: never mind my post.


----------



## Fir3ball

Thanks Skylit.
I have one more question. Does the Saiph 1800 have any kind of
problems, like positive or negative acceleration or angle
snapping?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fir3ball;13667287*
> Thanks Skylit.
> I have one more question. Does the Saiph 1800 have any kind of
> problems, like positive or negative acceleration or angle
> snapping?


I'm not sure. Don't have any experience with the OvationONS


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;13659084*
> They could have either:
> 
> Used the same sensor in both the 3200 and 1800 and capped the maximum resolution.
> Or
> They're using the CYONS2000(1)-LBXC 1600 CPI rated sensor scaled up to 1800 CPI.
> 
> Bullveyr can correct me if I'm giving you the wrong information


I would go for the first option, they have a first generation sensor from Cypress (like the Ikari), not the current second generation.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fir3ball;13667287*
> Thanks Skylit.
> I have one more question. Does the Saiph 1800 have any kind of
> problems, like positive or negative acceleration or angle
> snapping?


Shouldn't have angle snapping but the max. speed isn't really high (based on my experience with the Ikari).


----------



## outerspace

Just tested Kinzu. Sorry, but it's really piece of ****.







Terrible negaccel (surely less than 1.6 m/s but I cant tell accurate speed cuz of accel). Skips on almost all movements (but sometimes it's not skips that someone can distinguish from negaccel). Acceleration algorithm looks strange and unintelligible for me. Poorest gaming sensor that I ever tested.

I need additional equipment for accurate measurements but that I see is enough for me for never buy this device.

How players can enjoy it?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13712559*
> Just tested Kinzu. Sorry, but it's really piece of ****.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible negaccel (surely less than 1.6 m/s but I cant tell accurate speed cuz of accel). Skips on almost all movements (but sometimes it's not skips that someone can distinguish from negaccel). Acceleration algorithm looks strange and unintelligible for me. Poorest gaming sensor that I ever tested.
> 
> I need additional equipment for accurate measurements but that I see is enough for me for never buy this device.
> 
> How players can enjoy it?


Yep the kinzu has the worst sensor I have ever used. After using the mouse for 5 minutes I remember thinking to myself, How the hell did this thing get released with a steelseries logo on it? At some point during production someone had to have plugged the thing into a PC to give it a test drive right???? After reading their marketing it sounded like Steelseries wanted to provide quality products without the BS.

That was the day that I realized Steelseries was just another joke of a company that knew nothing about mice.


----------



## HaiiYaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp;13716405*
> Yep the kinzu has the worst sensor I have ever used. After using the mouse for 5 minutes I remember thinking to myself, How the hell did this thing get released with a steelseries logo on it? At some point during production someone had to have plugged the thing into a PC to give it a test drive right???? After reading their marketing it sounded like Steelseries wanted to provide quality products without the BS.
> 
> That was the day that I realized Steelseries was just another joke of a company that knew nothing about mice.


Because the average gamer is not willing to pay the price for a quality mouse with a quality sensor and quality mousefeet. The average gamer want high dpi and as many LEDs as possible


----------



## outerspace

a4tech made cheap mice with very good optical sensors (ADNS 3060, ADNS 3080), real teflon feets (3 additional complete set in package), adjustable dpi (100-3200 dpi with 50 dpi step), onboard memory, macroses support and all this dont need driver. Only problem is quality.







Sometimes it break down soon. But from my personal statistic not sooner than some SS or razer products. In this point logitech mice is the best.


----------



## F u r u y a

Hi,

Just posting to show the tests I did using outerspace Mouse Logger.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F u r u y á;13737820*
> Yes, there is.
> 
> I didn't confirmed whether it trully is 3G sensor though [by opening the mouse to check the sensor chip (and voiding the warranty)].
> 
> From preliminary tests, it doesn't match the numbers for a 3G sensor mouse from Skylit table (perfect control and malfunction speeds) and I'm yet to test it in another dpi's. Here's is the tests I've made using outerspace's Mouse Logger.
> 
> Perfect control
> 
> 1000Hz: ~1800mm/s
> 500Hz: ~900mm/s
> In-game top speed
> 
> Starcraft II: < 250mm/s
> Counter Strike 1.6: < 400mm/s
> 
> As you can see, the mouse easily meets my requirements. I have the dpi I need, with no jitter, no prediction and perfect control fairly above my in-game top speed (LOD is 3~4 CDs though). And, as I said, those were tested only with one specific dpi (1600) which could even be interpolated or something. Later I will make more tests with different dpi's.


When I test it in other dpi's I will post here. If possible I will make available a R script that generates a png file just like those I've made so that any user can plot his own graphics from the .log file and we can easily compare our mice!

I would like to say *thank you* to *Skylit* (for this thread and the spreadsheet), *outerspace* (for the mouse logger and great instructions) and *Kragarmendes* (for showing that we can use the .log file)!


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *F u r u y Ã¡*


Hi,

Just posting to show the tests I did using outerspace Mouse Logger.

When I test it in other dpi's I will post here. If possible I will make available a R script that generates a png file just like those I've made so that any user can plot his own graphics from the .log file and we can easily compare our mice!

I would like to say *thank you* to *Skylit* (for this thread and the spreadsheet), *outerspace* (for the mouse logger and great instructions) and *Kragarmendes* (for showing that we can use the .log file)!










Sorry. Some of the numbers on this thread were originanly from manual testing via ESR on a SS QCK+. Outerspace's logger is software based and may differ from the original perfect control and malfunction rates listed. Same thing goes for a program like enotus mouse test. Things like Mousepads and or different types of surfaces can also effect both the lift off and maximum tested rates.

I'll likely split these sheets into confirmed (outerspace's logger) and unconfirmed since I don't have the proper materials or time to manual test.


----------



## F u r u y a

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Skylit*


Sorry. Some of the numbers on this thread were originanly from manual testing via ESR on a SS QCK+. Outerspace's logger is software based and may differ from the original perfect control and malfunction rates listed. Same thing goes for a program like enotus mouse test. Things like Mousepads and or different types of surfaces can also effect both the lift off and maximum tested rates.

I'll likely split these sheets into confirmed (outerspace's logger) and unconfirmed since I don't have the proper materials or time to manual test.


Not exactly the answer I was expecting.

In any moment I intended to say that your table was wrong; in fact, notice in my previous message that I'm not even trusting that my mouse has legit 3G sensor. Also of course I'm aware that outerspace mouse logger data isn't 100% reliable, but as it was already discussed here it's a good starting point to have some notion about the mouse hardware and it's a very convinient way to test and compare mice without expensive equipment, I even worked hard in the R script but whatever. Bye.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F u r u y á;13740387*
> Not exactly the answer I was expecting.
> 
> In any moment I intended to say that your table was wrong; in fact, notice in my previous message that I'm not even trusting that my mouse has legit 3G sensor. Also of course I'm aware that outerspace mouse logger data isn't 100% reliable, but as it was already discussed here it's a good starting point to have some notion about the mouse hardware and it's a very convinient way to test and compare mice without expensive equipment, I even worked hard in the R script but whatever. Bye.


*F u r u y á*

I'm kind of a selective reader and skimmed over your post. I would like to say thank you for taking the time to compile a R script for everyone to use. If possible, I would like to work with you and others in reshaping this thread. Maybe it came out wrong, but the above post was merely explaining that I haven't had time to work on this thread and would like to re-create a more accurate table with the community as a whole. My apologies.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F u r u y á;13739830*
> If possible I will make available a R script that generates a png file just like those I've made so that any user can plot his own graphics from the .log file and we can easily compare our mice!


It would be very good.

Can you give me .bin file with mouse movement recrods for Abyssus at 500 Hz?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;13740157*
> Outerspace's logger is software based and may differ from the original perfect control and malfunction rates listed.


I just note that logger is unreliable for detect negaccel and malfunction speed when mouse have accel. And it's almost unreliable for detect malfunction speed if it's above negaccel speed. But you can do it if you can make (and record) reference movement with reference mouse







.


----------



## F u r u y a

Alright Skylit, no problems.

outerspace, I'm sending the .log files instead (MouseCnv.exe won't let me generate .bin for big .log files).

CS1.6 and SC2 was ploted for the intervals [39.564e4, 39.6e4] and [2.6278e5, 2.6315e5] respectively.


----------



## Kragarmendes

That's some pretty amazing insights, F u r u y á!

1. It's a "Razer's" 3G sensor, though firmware is a unknown factor.
2. They show how easily (@900mm/s) even 16bit interfaces* meet their limits @500Hz exhibiting clipping as a consequence.
3. They show 1000Hz (at least on this sensor/firmware) tends to be more prone to jitter/regular skipping/inaccuracy in the milisecond range (500Hz must be time-averaging them out).
4. Nice graphs









*AFAIK mice nowadays have a 16bit interface, at least mouse-to-PC wise (USB) which fits the calculation here:
log(897/25.4*1600)/log(2) = 15.786 (a bit weird since having two directions would need another bit ^^)
However, Bullveyr has mentioned before that most sensors employ an 8bit-interface, I guess mouse-to-firmware that is. I don't know the details but common sense suggests that the sensor then needs to be polled by the firmware/MCU with at least twice the USB polling rate, right? Or is it just polling at the specified frame rate? Any insights on that are welcome









A script is great as well! That kinda motivates me to publish my Octave script








I am glad that F u r u y á! didn't let himself get scared away. After all, misunderstandings are bound to happen when our common base, the Enlish language, is not everbody's first (not mine either







).

The logger method is easy and available but it has to be kept in mind (as outerspace himself mentioned) that it only reports what the mouse/sensor "sees" which is only indirectly correlated to reality i.e. physical movements.
So despite their can't-be-easily-tried-at-home-nature, the ESR results and the like should be expected to be more accurate as to the mice's ability to digitalize physical movement but at the same time they give less detailed insight on the implementation (e.g. polling rate fluctuations or similar).
I just hope and think that the results of both, the "physical" and the "digital" approach, deliver close enough results that distinction via comments to the cells of Skylit's sheet are sufficient


----------



## Kragarmendes

Something else...
http://ap.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-imperator/
http://ap.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-mamba/
Just got them in the email. How come I haven't heard a word about them before?








Intuitively, dual sensors sounds like epic win, however, it has been tried in the past without particular success...
Any opinions/expectations about it?

Edit:
http://www.overclock.net/mice/103704...al-sensor.html
http://www.overclock.net/hardware-ne...or-system.html
http://www.overclock.net/hardware-ne...cal-lazer.html
All pretty fresh


----------



## outerspace

Thanks. It's actually not good at 500 Hz... At least for me.









Did you try test Abyssus without driver?


----------



## outerspace

Kragarmendes, I suspect that early negaccel at 500 Hz is driver fault.


----------



## Kragarmendes

I kinda felt, I was going wrong somewhere, thanks for pointing that out








I forgot the 500Hz in the equation:
log(897/25.4*1600/500)/log(2) = 6.820!!
Notice something? Correct, remember 1bit has to be added to consider both directions which has us end up with ~8bit and an embarassing joke by razer to put such an interface (or driver/firmware implementation) in a modern gaming mouse, even if it's the entry level model. In this case I would rather have a Zowie Mico it seems.
Maybe I am going wrong again but it kinda makes sense this time, doesn't it?


----------



## outerspace

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


*AFAIK mice nowadays have a 16bit interface, at least mouse-to-PC wise (USB) which fits the calculation here:
log(897/25.4*1600)/log(2) = 15.786 (a bit weird since having two directions would need another bit ^^)
However, Bullveyr has mentioned before that most sensors employ an 8bit-interface, I guess mouse-to-firmware that is. I don't know the details but common sense suggests that the sensor then needs to be polled by the firmware/MCU with at least twice the USB polling rate, right? Or is it just polling at the specified frame rate? Any insights on that are welcome










1. Max value for 8 bit buffer is 11111111 (binary) = 255 (decimal).
2. 255/2 = 127 for one dirction. Biffer is divided between two directions (axis): X and Y.
3. Negaccel speed for mouse depend on buffer is MAX.BUFFER.VALUE*POLLING.RATE/DPI (inches/s). For 400 dpi and 125 Hz is 127*125/400 = 39,6875 inches/s = 1 m/s (known number







). For 1600 dpi and 500 Hz is also 1 m/s. 
4. Max value for 16 bit buffer is 65535/2 = 32767 in one direction. It's far enough for all possible speeds and mouse resolutions.







For 125 Hz and 5000 dpi (worst situation) negaccel speed is 819,175 inches/s = 20 m/s









I'm shure that Abyssus have 16 bit buffer and early negaccel speed at 500 Hz is just driver fault.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *outerspace*


I'm shure that Abyssus have 16 bit buffer and early negaccel speed at 500 Hz is just driver fault.


How can you be sure when you have just about proved the opposite?








No seriously, I am interested in any information that would hint towards that


----------



## outerspace

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


How can you be sure when you have just about proved the opposite?








No seriously, I am interested in any information that would hint towards that










If it's 8 bit buffer problen then speed must be 1008 mm/s but not 897 mm/s as we can see at *F u r u y Ã¡* graph.









Also look at Abyssus specs:

Quote:



16-bit ultra-wide data path.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Ever had a x52 CD-drive that really did x52?









Edit: Ok, you win







Either way we agree they messed something up they shouldn't have.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


Ever had a x52 CD-drive that really did x52?










Mice with 8 bit buffer give *exactly* max 127 samples in one count. Just test it if you dont trust me. It's *exactly* 1008 mm/s for 1600 dpi and 500 Hz.







In log file for Abyssus at 500 Hz we see max 113 samples in one count. So it's surely not 8 bit buffer problem.


----------



## F u r u y a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13800922*
> That's some pretty amazing insights, F u r u y á!
> 
> 1. It's a "Razer's" 3G sensor, though firmware is a unknown factor.
> 2. They show how easily (@900mm/s) even 16bit interfaces* meet their limits @500Hz exhibiting clipping as a consequence.
> 3. They show 1000Hz (at least on this sensor/firmware) tends to be more prone to jitter/regular skipping/inaccuracy in the milisecond range (500Hz must be time-averaging them out).
> 4. Nice graphs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *AFAIK mice nowadays have a 16bit interface, at least mouse-to-PC wise (USB) which fits the calculation here:
> log(897/25.4*1600)/log(2) = 15.786 (a bit weird since having two directions would need another bit ^^)
> However, Bullveyr has mentioned before that most sensors employ an 8bit-interface, I guess mouse-to-firmware that is. I don't know the details but common sense suggests that the sensor then needs to be polled by the firmware/MCU with at least twice the USB polling rate, right? Or is it just polling at the specified frame rate? Any insights on that are welcome
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A script is great as well! That kinda motivates me to publish my Octave script
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad that F u r u y á! didn't let himself get scared away. After all, misunderstandings are bound to happen when our common base, the Enlish language, is not everbody's first (not mine either
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> 
> The logger method is easy and available but it has to be kept in mind (as outerspace himself mentioned) that it only reports what the mouse/sensor "sees" which is only indirectly correlated to reality i.e. physical movements.
> So despite their can't-be-easily-tried-at-home-nature, the ESR results and the like should be expected to be more accurate as to the mice's ability to digitalize physical movement but at the same time they give less detailed insight on the implementation (e.g. polling rate fluctuations or similar).
> I just hope and think that the results of both, the "physical" and the "digital" approach, deliver close enough results that distinction via comments to the cells of Skylit's sheet are sufficient


Thanks, Kragarmendes.

About the polling: I don't think that USB and MCU can have their clocks 100% synchronized (USB is clocked by motherboard; MCU is clocked by the "mouseboard"), so I definetly agree with you, the sensor should be polled by MCU at higher rates than the MCU is polled by USB. I think that 2 times isn't enought, it should be 5 or even 10 times of the USB polling rate. BUT... those are just my thoughts. I don't have any evidences to support that.

And english is also not my first language









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13800965*
> Thanks. It's actually not good at 500 Hz... At least for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you try test Abyssus without driver?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13801562*
> 1. Max value for 8 bit buffer is 11111111 (binary) = 255 (decimal).
> 2. 255/2 = 127 for one dirction. Biffer is divided between two directions (axis): X and Y.
> 3. Negaccel speed for mouse depend on buffer is MAX.BUFFER.VALUE*POLLING.RATE/DPI (inches/s). For 400 dpi and 125 Hz is 127*125/400 = 39,6875 inches/s = 1 m/s (known number
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). For 1600 dpi and 500 Hz is also 1 m/s.
> 4. Max value for 16 bit buffer is 65535/2 = 32767 in one direction. It's far enough for all possible speeds and mouse resolutions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For 125 Hz and 5000 dpi (worst situation) negaccel speed is 819,175 inches/s = 20 m/s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm shure that Abyssus have 16 bit buffer and early negaccel speed at 500 Hz is just driver fault.


Here is the tests. Without driver it clips exacly at 127









Without driver:









With driver:









As you predicted, driver does affect the performance (it lowers the perfect control speed by 12%; counts and polling looks steadier without driver).

It seems that this mouse has onboard memory that saves my configuration. After I uninstalled the driver, rebooted PC and changed USB port, I had the same feeling in the sensitivity and polling remained the same (500Hz). That's the good news.

The bad news: Am I wrong or it looks like it has 8-bit bus? So is it not a legit 3G sensor? Remeber that this Abyssus is the 1800dpi version (that comes with the Cyclosa bundle). It's not a regular Abyssus 3.5G.

And which bus you guys are refering to?








(bus 1 or bus 2?)


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13801930*
> Mice with 8 bit buffer give *exactly* max 127 samples in one count.


Only if you move it to the right (or up for y-axis).















Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes;13800922*
> *AFAIK mice nowadays have a 16bit interface, at least mouse-to-PC wise (USB)
> ...
> However, Bullveyr has mentioned before that most sensors employ an 8bit-interface, I guess mouse-to-firmware that is. I don't know the details but common sense suggests that the sensor then needs to be polled by the firmware/MCU with at least twice the USB polling rate, right? Or is it just polling at the specified frame rate? Any insights on that are welcome


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F u r u y á;13803813*
> About the polling: I don't think that USB and MCU can have their clocks 100% synchronized (USB is clocked by motherboard; MCU is clocked by the "mouseboard"), so I definetly agree with you, the sensor should be polled by MCU at higher rates than the MCU is polled by USB. I think that 2 times isn't enought, it should be 5 or even 10 times of the USB polling rate. BUT... those are just my thoughts. I don't have any evidences to support that.


Yes, sensors usually have a 8bit serial port, exceptions are the A9500 and afaik also the twin-eye.

The serial port of the A3090 for example clocks at up to 500kHz or 2MHz (depending on mode), so your on the safe side.

Afaik the twin-eye in the original Lachesis only had a 500Hz SPI.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;13807364*
> Only if you move it to the right (or up for y-axis).


You mean that for left and down it's must be -127 (very impotant remark!







)? Or what?

*F u r u y á*,

Can you test it with 125 Hz?

I think it's better if you install driver again, reset settings to default (if it possible) and completely remove driver (check it attentively). After that change polling rate and dpi by microswitches and do another test with 125 and 1000 Hz.









They cant use 8 bit buffer instead of 16 if they said in specs: 16-bit ultra-wide data path.







It's fraud.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13807685*
> You mean that for left and down it's must be -127 (very impotant remark!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )? Or what?


The range of delta x/y is from -128 to +127.


----------



## F u r u y a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13807685*
> You mean that for left and down it's must be -127 (very impotant remark!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )? Or what?
> 
> *F u r u y á*,
> 
> Can you test it with 125 Hz?
> 
> I think it's better if you install driver again, reset settings to default (if it possible) and completely remove driver (check it attentively). After that change polling rate and dpi by microswitches and do another test with 125 and 1000 Hz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They cant use 8 bit buffer instead of 16 if they said in specs: 16-bit ultra-wide data path.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's fraud.


As I said my Abyssus is the 1800dpi version suposedly 3G sensor (instead of 3.5G) and doesn't have switches (haven't you read my post?







). I will test for 125hz and 1000hz later, now I'm lazy eating breakfast and watching GSL


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F u r u y á;13807932*
> As I said my Abyssus is the 1800dpi version suposedly 3G sensor (instead of 3.5G) and doesn't have switches (haven't you read my post?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). I will test for 125hz and 1000hz later, now I'm lazy eating breakfast and watching GSL


My english is bad and sometimes I just dont notice/read some things.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;13807740*
> The range of delta x/y is from -128 to +127.


Intresting.







For all mice? I test mice for movements only from left to right (for some technical reasons) so I never notice it.

*Kragarmendes*,

If it have max 127 counts in 1600 dpi @125 Hz and @1000 Hz then it's 8 bit buffer problem and strange driver behaviour just misinform me.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13808265*
> Intresting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For all mice? I test mice for movements only from left to right (for some technical reasons) so I never notice it.


Dunno, I haven't read every sensor data sheet but I don't remember seeing it the other way around (-127 to +128), it's certainly the same for PixArt.
Because of the "zero" you allways have an uneven number but it doen't really matter if max. positive or negative x/y value is 1 higher.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Haha, #322 opened my eyes! I read 3G all along but didn't think about it at all because I had never heard of different Abyssuses and was sure there was only one









Probably Razer had some spare, dusty Salmosa PBCs lying around and squeezed them into Abyssus shells







Did the Salmosa have an 8bit data path??
Funny how the driver is messing it up even more









In case it is not clear yet, the 8 vs. 16bit talk is about "Bus 2". "Bus 1" is the one Bullveyr has reported as being 8bit in most cases and polled at speeds several orders of magnitude higher.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;13807364*
> Afaik the twin-eye in the original Lachesis only had a 500Hz SPI.


What does the SPI stand for? Is what the sensor vendors specify as maximum frame rate equivalent to the maximum polling rate ("Bus 1")?

Edit: SPI I see... So the Lachesis had 500kHz or really just 500Hz??


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


Is what the sensor vendors specify as maximum frame rate equivalent to the maximum polling rate ("Bus 1")?


No, FPS stand for Frames per Second or how many images the sensor makes per second

Quote:



So the Lachesis had 500kHz or really just 500Hz??


500Hz, at least that's what I was told.


----------



## F u r u y a

Yes, it has 8-bit buffer. (btw, is it the length of a buffer or of a bus?)

125Hz (no drivers)









1000Hz (no drivers)









with driver: [1000Hz[/URL], 125Hz[/URL]]


----------



## F u r u y a

*Kragarmendes*, I want so much to open this mouse to actually see the sensor chip but I don't want to void the warranty :/
If the 3G sensor has 16-bit buffer, then my mouse (labeled as being 3G) it's a fraud as *outerspace* stated!









*Bullveyr*, how do you know those details about mice? Do you design mice?









Some time ago I had to implement a firmware to a Set-Top-Box and eventually dealt with SPI. So, if it's a SPI link between Sensor-MCU, "bus 1" is at most 4-bit wide. Nice insights about the mouse hardware









Btw... maybe I answered my own question (about the 8-bit beign whether a buffer or a bus)... if the link between MCU-USB is also serial, so definetly it's a buffer that we're talking about


----------



## outerspace

*Kragarmendes*, Salmosa have "16-bit ultra-wide data path".


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F u r u y á;13814177*
> *Kragarmendes*, I want so much to open this mouse to actually see the sensor chip but I don't want to void the warranty :/
> If the 3G sensor has 16-bit buffer, then my mouse (labeled as being 3G) it's a fraud as *outerspace* stated!


Unlike the normal Abyssus yours has the S3668 instead of the S3888.

http://mouse.zol.com.cn/197/1979463.html
http://auction1.paipai.com/6CA0D71000000000006C399206330D0A

It also has a different MCU.
Quote:


> *Bullveyr*, how do you know those details about mice? Do you design mice?


No but I know someone who does.
Also a lot of that stuuf you can simply find out by reading the datasheets.


----------



## F u r u y a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;13819182*
> Unlike the normal Abyssus yours has the S3668 instead of the S3888.
> 
> http://mouse.zol.com.cn/197/1979463.html
> http://auction1.paipai.com/6CA0D71000000000006C399206330D0A
> 
> It also has a different MCU.
> 
> No but I know someone who does.
> Also a lot of that stuuf you can simply find out by reading the datasheets.


Oh nice info you got there about the 1800dpi version.

But, still, DeathAdder 3G (S3668) perfect control speed was measured as 3.92m/s (ESR MouseScore 2007) whilst mine was measured as 1.79m/s (outerspace logger).


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F u r u y á;13819310*
> Oh nice info you got there about the 1800dpi version.
> 
> But, still, DeathAdder 3G (S3668) perfect control speed was measured as 3.92m/s (ESR MouseScore 2007) whilst mine was measured as 1.79m/s (outerspace logger).


What CPI did you use? The 3.92m/s measurement was done at 1800.

1.79m/s sounds closer to the DA's 450/900 CPI steps.


----------



## F u r u y a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;13829371*
> What CPI did you use? The 3.92m/s measurement was done at 1800.
> 
> 1.79m/s sounds closer to the DA's 450/900 CPI steps.


1600cpi.

Actually is 2016mm/s without driver (1794mm/s with driver).

Either I'm







or mine hasn't Avago S3668 (or even it does have it but with 8-bit buffer).


----------



## webstar

Bullveyr, since you obviously know alot about mice and sensors... how important is the FPS of the sensor? I've used Xai for about a year (ADNS-9500 has like 12k FPS) and then I got back to MX518 cause it doesn't have any neg/pos accel but it somehow feels less precise and less smooth.


----------



## Bullveyr

It's obviously a good thing to have high FPS but that alone doesn't give you a high performance.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *webstar;13836413*
> Bullveyr, since you obviously know alot about mice and sensors... how important is the FPS of the sensor? I've used Xai for about a year (ADNS-9500 has like 12k FPS) and then I got back to MX518 cause it doesn't have any neg/pos accel but it somehow feels less precise and less smooth.


Are you overclocking the MX518's polling rate? It defaults at only 125hz. The prediction might also be bothering you after using a mouse with so little prediction for a year.


----------



## webstar

Yeah, I overclocked the polling rate to 500Hz. It could be the prediction, not quite sure until I try a different mouse with no accel and prediction.


----------



## Skylit

I will be updating the spreadsheet over the next few days. I have started by creating a simplified Sensor list and adding a few mice.

[ame="[URL=https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AosJbEwEG9GpdENDZGJCcl9ITzdvSW5mcGJLYVB2YVE&w=48&h=650]https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AosJbEwEG9GpdENDZGJCcl9ITzdvSW5mcGJLYVB2YVE&w=48&h=650"]Simplified[/ame[/URL]]

I am open for suggestions as to what you guys would want as a complete reference sheet.


----------



## AquaSurfer

A4Tech XL-740K - Avago ADNS-6010
http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?Mouse

Tt Azurues - Avago ADNS-3080
http://forum.pclab.pl/topic/248063-S...st__p__9203629

My suggestions:
-when someone adds Perfect control/malfunction speed it would be nice to write what surface the test was taken on because the result may vary a lot 
-same as above with LOD
-maybe links to graphs if available
-change the title because "Mouse Sensor Reference and Performance Sheet" suggests that there won't be any info about mice.
-Add quick info (youtbe videos maybe) under whole table what is z-axis tracking problem, what is prediction, jitter, skipping...


----------



## cuad

I got a suggestion for ur chart skylit. Make "sensor name" and "type" the last columns. they're not important.

you should put the important stuff first. i made a comment before about having the cpi column to close to the left. it's the first thing i see and it makes me think that cpi is the most important thing along w/ whether or not the sensor is optical or laser.

I agree with the title change idea too.


----------



## Skylit

Alright. I really want to wait for more input, but I'm open to suggestions for a title. Maybe something we can all agree on.

-I do want to remove the entire CPI column but instead list off specific values the mouse was tested with. Of course, same thing applies to LOD, surfaces or what not. 
-I would like to incorporate F u r u y Ã¡ 's R script by either hot linking images as results or whatever else comes to mind.
-Maybe there could be Two list's. One with mice we all have, and the other just with the sensors they use. Some mice are guilty of guesstimates and I really don't want them to represent false info.

Thanks guys.


----------



## Kragarmendes

I think referencing the test surface and linking graphs would be fine. Other than that, I don't see much need for changes.

Why would you remove the CPI? At least the native CPI of the sensor would be useful information imo.


----------



## Eagle1337

Hey sky does it mean you are getting rid of the perfect control and acceleration and what not? Although I do think they should still be around but maybe on a different spreadsheet and a Sensor name specs etc. As I find right now it's too busy to find what i'm looking for, the Second list(I think the one a bit above mine) works rather nicely, just need another one for sensor and sensor info.


----------



## Skylit

Not really, but I may have two spreadsheets going. Just waiting for more input!


----------



## Eagle1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;14015777*
> Not really, but I may have two spreadsheets going. Just waiting for more input!


I recommend having 2. This way one can easily find their mouse and which sensor it has, then search the sensor up to find the specs and what not.


----------



## yashau

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eagle1337;14016364*
> I recommend having 2. This way one can easily find their mouse and which sensor it has, then search the sensor up to find the specs and what not.


I don't think that's a good idea. There maybe one mice that performs exceptionally well with one sensor while another works horribly with it. For example: CM Spawn and Puretrak Valor


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

i'm looking to replace microsoft mouse wheel optical (coffee spilled over it). found this one interesting: http://www.microsoft.com/uk/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=152&active_tab=overview (microsoft optical mouse 200). looks just like something i need, clean and simple for cs. but for the life of me i haven't been able to found out does it use the same sensor (mlt 40) like my previous mouse, or is it something new? please advise.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Why not get a new wmo if you liked it?
ebay


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

well to be honest, it's the best mouse (at least for me) i have ever had the pleasure of playing with. tried many top level (at least price wise) mice, and none of them come close (after overclocking usb rate, of course).

this new one seems to have 800dpi from what i have gathered, and if it's the same sensor, this would surely kick ass in an awesome manner. i'm always up for trying something new (razer mouse excluded, they brake too easily







.


----------



## Tator Tot

On the topic of the spreadsheet change that was had before; I think you should keep it as is. It's a collection of almost perfect information. 
The only thing I would change is possibly add a column for recommendation or not.


----------



## Farih

I am looking at a new mouse, the spreadsheet is very detailed but i have no idea what to look for really.

got a CM storm sentinal now and overall happy with it, anoying thing is that slow mouse movement on high dpi sometimes can get a little bit jiggy.

I love the quality though, its the first mouse ever that has lasted me over 2 years now.

What sensor should i be looking for if i want perfect control on around 1800-2400dpi ?
i use steelseries 5L pads, similar to 9HD pads i think


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Farih;14136352*
> I am looking at a new mouse, the spreadsheet is very detailed but i have no idea what to look for really.
> 
> got a CM storm sentinal now and overall happy with it, anoying thing is that slow mouse movement on high dpi sometimes can get a little bit jiggy.
> 
> I love the quality though, its the first mouse ever that has lasted me over 2 years now.
> 
> What sensor should i be looking for if i want perfect control on around 1800-2400dpi ?
> i use steelseries 5L pads, similar to 9HD pads i think


What is your preferred grip?

http://www.razerzone.com/mouseguide/html/palmgrip.php
http://www.razerzone.com/mouseguide/html/clawgrip.php
http://www.razerzone.com/mouseguide/html/fingertipgrip.php


----------



## Farih

i use somethign similar to claw/fingertip grip

Hold it still and move slowly with a claw grip but with fast moving it tuns to fingertip grip


----------



## Wararchon

G9? Mx518? I would recommend a lot of really good optical mice but I don't know how well they would track on your hard pad. However I'll give them to you anyways.

Claw: CM Storm Spawn (the best mouse for claw grip, no contest), zowie mico
Palm: Zowie EC1/2, g400 (can be clawed as well), Mionix NAOS 3200, Roccat Kova or Kova+

They all have very good tracking, top tier sensors, good perfect control/malfunction speed, and very low acceleration.


----------



## Farih

I thought if i know the best type of sensor for this i could find the best mouse myself using the list on the first page

The mx518 die's really quikly in my hands and i think its way to light.
still have the mx518 but dont use it anymore, if i will it will die fast again so.
allready got 3 mx518's back from RMA lol


----------



## Wararchon

Ok, but remember that a sensor might be good, firmware and build quality can still screw it up:

Best sensors (optical, since laser ones have accel):
Avago ADNS-3090 (CM Storm Spawn, Puretrak Valor)
Avago ADNS-S3080 (mx518, Kova)
Avago ADNS-3060 (A4Tech opticals, Mionix NAOS, Zowie EC1/2)
Avago ADNS-S3888 (Abyssus, 3.5G Deathadder)
Avago ADNS-A3070/A3080 (Diamondback)
Avago ADNS-S3668 (3G Deathadder, Boomslang, 3G Diamondback)
PixArt PAN3305DK-H (Kova+, Pyra, Zowie Mico)


----------



## Skylit

*
Good sensors: Optical/IR*

PixArt PAN3305DK-H (Open Source)
Avago ADNS-3060 (Open Source)
Avago ADNS-3080 (Open Source)
Avago ADNS-3090 (Open Source)
Avago ADNS-S3668 (Razer Proprietary)
Avago ADNS-S3888 (Razer Proprietary)
STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04 (Microsoft Proprietary)
*
Laser:*
Avago ADNS-9500 (Open Source)- High Perfect control/Malfunction rates on hard surfaces, Low perfect control and malfunction rates on Cloth. 5-10% positive acceleration issue, but it generally won't effect users with high or should I say low cm/360.

As for recommendations, I'm not really sure if you lift your mouse and swipe or just pivot it with your wrist.

The Cooler Master Spawn would be one recommendation, but it may feel very awkward due to it's sensor position if you do indeed pivot.

Zowie Mico should be perfect for a fingertip/claw grip, but it lacks side buttons if that's an issue.

Both of these mice are scheduled for release in the US within the next 2 weeks.

Edit:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Farih;14136663*
> I thought if i know the best type of sensor for this i could find the best mouse myself using the list on the first page
> 
> The mx518 die's really quikly in my hands and i think its way to light.
> still have the mx518 but dont use it anymore, if i will it will die fast again so.
> allready got 3 mx518's back from RMA lol


Way too light? D:

Never mind my previous recommendations then =x

Only thing I can really think of is the G9x.. You can load up the weight and it's designed for a Claw/Fingertip grip.


----------



## HaiiYaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wararchon;14136693*
> Ok, but remember that a sensor might be good, firmware and build quality can still screw it up:
> 
> Best sensors (optical, since laser ones have accel):
> Avago ADNS-3090 (CM Storm Spawn, Puretrak Valor)
> Avago ADNS-S3080 (mx518, Kova)
> Avago ADNS-3060 (A4Tech opticals, Mionix NAOS, Zowie EC1/2)
> Avago ADNS-S3888 (Abyssus, 3.5G Deathadder)
> Avago ADNS-A3070/A3080 (Diamondback)
> Avago ADNS-S3668 (3G Deathadder, Boomslang, 3G Diamondback)
> PixArt PAN3305DK-H (Kova+, Pyra, Zowie Mico)


the zowie mico use a different sensor than the pyra and kova+


----------



## HaiiYaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;14136746*
> *
> Good sensors: Optical/IR*
> 
> PixArt PAN3305DK-H (Open Source)
> Avago ADNS-3060 (Open Source)
> Avago ADNS-3080 (Open Source)
> Avago ADNS-3090 (Open Source)
> Avago ADNS-S3668 (Razer Proprietary)
> Avago ADNS-S3888 (Razer Proprietary)
> STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04 (Microsoft Proprietary)
> *
> Laser:*
> Avago ADNS-9500 (Open Source)- High Perfect control/Malfunction rates on hard surfaces, Low perfect control and malfunction rates on Cloth. 5-10% positive acceleration issue, but it generally won't effect users with high or should I say low cm/360.
> 
> As for recommendations, I'm not really sure if you lift your mouse and swipe or just pivot it with your wrist.
> 
> The Cooler Master Spawn Would be one recommendation, but it may feel very awkward due to it's sensor position if you do indeed pivot.
> 
> Zowie Mico should be perfect for a fingertip/claw grip, but it lacks side buttons if that's an issue.
> 
> Both of these mice are scheduled for release in the US within the next 2 weeks.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Way too light? D:
> 
> Never mind my previous recommendations then =x


Thats a great post skylit, you should put that in the first post


----------



## Wararchon

Well then the charts a liar. FIX PLZ


----------



## Skylit

I can fix it as soon as someone posts the correct information if it is indeed wrong.

I never researched or filled in the Kova+/Pyra.


----------



## Wararchon

From what i've gathered on the internetz, pyra and kova+ has the same sensor, supposedly pixart PAN3305DK-H. Same goes for mico. I'm not sure whos right, so until then I'm gonna say that they have basically the same sensor.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Just read carefully.

Kova+ and the like are PAW
Mico is PAN

No need to fix anything.
Besides Bullveyr posted links where you can see photographs of the actual sensor.
However, any information as to how they are different would be welcome










Edit:
http://www.pcwaishe.cn/viewthread.php?tid=178084
http://www.techbang.com.tw/posts/5739-zowie-mico-dedicated-small-rts-gaming-mouse-market-test


----------



## Wararchon

Booo just when I saw the W. Makes me look nub.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit;14136746*
> Only thing I can really think of is the G9x..


Would have been my first suggestion as well. However, only if you can live with the rattly build and the horrible mouse wheel (I can't







).
The Alienware TactX Mouse is virtually the same mouse but without the exchangeable grips never touched it though.
The Mionix Naos 5000 is also a great mouse. Not sure though if it will suit your claw/fingertip grip.


----------



## Farih

Thx for all the reply's.
With the list of sensors Skylift gave i should be able to find a good new mouse.
ill just look at all the mouse's that have a good shape and weight for me and see if they got one of the sensors Skylift suggested, i am bound to find a good mouse like this


----------



## Farih

i cant find any Zowie mice's at my retailer










so far i found these mice's:
.Cm Storm Spawn
.Razer Abyssus
.Razer deathadder
.Logitech G9x
.Gigabyte M8000X
.MS Intellimouse

Thinking of the abyssus, its looks like a good shape and its cheap.
CM storm Spawn looks allright but might feel strange in me hands coming from a storm sentinel.

Whats the difference between a Abyssus and deathadder btw ?


----------



## Wararchon

The sensor performance are the same with the latest firmware. Only difference is design and buttons. Abyssus only has 3, while deathadder has 5. Abyssus is an ambidextrous design, deathadder is right handed (unless you buy lefty version).

Edit: Heard about a few bugs in abyssus, and it's not as praised as deathadder so if i had the choice i would go deathadder.


----------



## Farih

Hmmm seems like its going to be the deathadder then









allthough i dont mind just haven 3 buttons, i just want a good mouse that can serve me attleast 2 years..


----------



## Wararchon

Razer's customer care is pretty decent. Should anything go astray they should be able to help. Also, if your a low sens player, apply the magic tape fix to the sensor to lower the LOD.


----------



## Cabbs

Abyssus and Deathadder are vastly different in terms of shape. Grip style is going to be your biggest determining factor between the two. Put simply:

Palm-Deathadder
Claw/fingertip-Abyssus

I'm a claw-gripper and I love my Abyssus. It jitters on my Talent though (tried both regular and League of Legends edition), so I had to switch to my Zowie G-RF and it's fine. Also, lack of side buttons may be a drawback for you.


----------



## Farih

i dont mind a lack of buttons, all i need is 3 buttons on top and be able to adjust dpi. dont care if its on the fly with a button or through software either

btw, razor site state's a deathadder is for claw grip
http://www.razerzone.com/mouseguide/html/rightmouse.php


----------



## Skylit

I know you said you like heavy mice, but I would really recommend that you go with a light claw/fingertip mouse like the Abyssus, MiCO, or Spawn.

Razer may say that, and you can very well claw it if you pivot your mouse with your wrist, but it's very stressful if you lift. It's really a palm mouse.


----------



## Cabbs

It really isn't for claw grip. I've tried it on my Deathadder and it just doesn't feel good. It's also harder to lift like Skylit said.


----------



## Farih

Wish i could just try all the one's i listed but as a reseller i have no return policy at all lol, reduced prices i get though









btw, i dont lift my mouse from the pad at all
use claw/fingertip grip with around 1800 to 2400dpi

the storm sentinel i have now is perfect for me in shape but it goes wierd from stand still to moving, the pointer shoots in ur given direction really fast and then goes to normal behaviour. very anoying when sniping or doing rpg's


----------



## Cabbs

I still feel you'd be better off with an Abyssus for your grip style. Driverless is pretty nice too, you just have to be careful with which mouse pad you have if like cloth pads. A cheap solution is the $5 ACI Supermat from Fry's, works fine with my Abyssus.


----------



## Farih

i use steelseries 5L
plastic but feels soft on top


----------



## Cabbs

I have a 5L in my closet, I'll see if it jitters when I get home from work in a few hours.


----------



## Cabbs

Looks like it slightly jitters on both. :/


----------



## AquaSurfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;13801930*
> Mice with 8 bit buffer give *exactly* max 127 samples in one count.


What if a mouse with avago adns-3060 gives me a max of 256 samples in one count?


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AquaSurfer;14166214*
> What if a mouse with avago adns-3060 gives me a max of 256 samples in one count?


It means that other limitation is present.







It's not buffer problem I think.

With a4tech X-710BK and BH (with adns 3060) I coudnt reach limitations by my hand.


----------



## AquaSurfer

It is actually a4tech mouse







x-760h. I was able to reach negative accel at 4m/s and that was at 500hz, 800dpi.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Is it the same limitation with 125Hz?


----------



## outerspace

*AquaSurfer*, I cant reach 4 m/s by my hand on my 40 cm mousepad. I think it's impossible.







You are monster if you can. Be careful.









*Kragarmendes*, my intuition said me that with 125 Hz this limitation will change from 256 (if it's realy present) to much more number.







I predict that it will be 1024. Well, let's see.


----------



## fun2k

i have tried using ver 30a,31 and 32 on the goliathus speed frag and regular black edition,xtrac ripper, steelseries 5l non-black edition(sensor skips a lot) and, thunder 9 rough(hard pad)

How i tested:
In paint,try to do a fast swipe then bring curser back to original position.

On the dark goliathus speed cloth pads the curser never came back to the original position= pos/neg accel,skipping or low perfect control on cloth pads?
you wont notice this in game unless ur used to doing flick shots.slow to mid curser movements register just fine.on the 5l and xtrac the sensor skips a lot more.

On the other hand my 3year old razer DA never skips a beat even on the unrealisticly fast swipes i did just for testing

On my thunder9 hard pad the spawn tracks just as good as the DA.i wish they find a fix for this because i really like shape of this mouse its a lot more flickable in fps games with low sens.

btw can anyone else test spawn on their cloth pads?
thanks


----------



## AquaSurfer

Tests of x-760h's sensor: http://www.mediafire.com/?qyoxapzoztw5pw3
and prediction test:


_edit:_
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;14177852*
> *AquaSurfer*, I cant reach 4 m/s by my hand on my 40 cm mousepad. I think it's impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are monster if you can. Be careful.


I use qck heavy


----------



## Emissary of Pain

Greetings All ...

I have been reading through this thread and must say it is amazing ... I did notice that the Verbatim Rapier V2 isn't on the list ...

Can anyone find out more about this mouse ?? ...

I am using a generic 1000dpi laser mouse (Razer DA got stolen at a lan) and can get the Verbatim Rapier V2 for only $15 and the Rapier Precision Mouse pad for only $8 ...

Is this a good buy ??

All information greatly appreciated ...

Kind Regards.


----------



## Tator Tot

Sepc's look similar to the Avago ADNS-3080
40G Accel 
20 IPS
3200 DPI


----------



## Emissary of Pain

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Sepc's look similar to the Avago ADNS-3080



On Verbatim's web page they state that it is a laser gaming mouse ?? ... The ADNS-3080 is optical ??


----------



## avinin1

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Emissary of Pain*


Greetings All ...

I have been reading through this thread and must say it is amazing ... I did notice that the Verbatim Rapier V2 isn't on the list ...

Can anyone find out more about this mouse ?? ...

I am using a generic 1000dpi laser mouse *(Razer DA got stolen at a lan)* and can get the Verbatim Rapier V2 for only $15 and the Rapier Precision Mouse pad for only $8 ...

Is this a good buy ??

All information greatly appreciated ...

Kind Regards.


what crappy kids.

If you want a cheap alternative you can get any a4tech mice that use the 3060/3080 sensor(look at the list and choose the model that have the LoD reduce thingy) or mx518.
or any cheap alternative that use ADNS-3080.

If you can open your wallet more wider (saw that Expression at Hi-fi hehe) - I'll suggest the G400 / EC1/2 / Cm Spawn.

And you can get also QcK for 10USD+- where you live at..


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Emissary of Pain*


On Verbatim's web page they state that it is a laser gaming mouse ?? ... The ADNS-3080 is optical ??


IR LED, didn't notice the lazer part.

Might be the Avago ADNS-6090, you should pick one up at that price and crack'er open.


----------



## Emissary of Pain

Quote:



Originally Posted by *avinin1*


If you want a cheap alternative you can get any a4tech mice


I was looking at the Online Retailers in my country and they don't seem to have any A4tech mice ...

The other options I have is replacing my DA or getting the Roccat Kova (not the plus) ... the problem with that is they are easily 4 times the price ... and after my last mouse got stolen ... I am hesitant to put down that kind of money so freely ...

Quote:



Originally Posted by *avinin1*


where you live at..


I am from South Africa ... =P


----------



## Emissary of Pain

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


You should pick one up at that price and crack'er open.



LOL !! ... ... I was thinking that, but the price I gave was the converted price, in my currency it's a bit more ... haha ...


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

i had verbatim rapier v2. it's not a bad mouse, ergonomics are quite good. middle button is very very stiff (gets just a bit softer after some usage), side buttons are a little flimsy, and i'm pretty sure u could brake it if u squeezed it with enough force. however it feelt to me very precise, and i made many headshots with it.

it is laser, and works at 1000hz no problem, u can make scripts, has onboard memory....

the biggest problem is really horrible liftoff distance of ~11mm which made me dispose of it...


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Emissary of Pain*


LOL !! ... ... I was thinking that, but the price I gave was the converted price, in my currency it's a bit more ... haha ...


Ah, if it was $15 Rand then that'd be a steal.


----------



## Emissary of Pain

Quote:



Originally Posted by *obi.van.kenobi*


Middle button is very very stiff (gets just a bit softer after some usage),

the biggest problem is really horrible liftoff distance of ~11mm which made me dispose of it...



That is seriously huge ... and the fact I am a claw-grip gamer means I need a lower LoD ...

Sigh ... Looks like I will be forking out quadruple the price for a new mouse which is a pity cause I thought this could have been a real winner ...


----------



## AresSs

yo mates !

First of all, sorry for my english.

I would like to ask something special. This topic is like a bible, really, no sarcasm here. However, I tough to all the french community, who maybe dont have all of these informations and dont maybe understand what you're saying. Then I would create a similar thing on the famous hardware.fr forum. So, my question is "May I use your Sensor perf sheet on this french community ?"

As a matter of course, you'll quote as a source of this sheet.

Thanks for your consideration.

peace out young grasshoppers.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

i bought it for aproximately the same price, and don't get me wrong it's a great mouse for the price, but the liftoff made me get a wmo 1.1 (same price). i miss the two extra keys, and sometimes (very very rarely) it glitches because my hand can accelerate above and beyond 1.5 m/s







. and it's true what they say, it's made for cs.


----------



## Cabbs

Quote:



Originally Posted by *obi.van.kenobi*


it glitches because my hand can accelerate above and beyond 1.5 m/s







.


This is why I left my IMO 1.1. 1.5 m/s isn't hard for me to hit at all anymore and tape fixed the LOD.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Cabbs*


This is why I left my IMO 1.1. 1.5 m/s isn't hard for me to hit at all anymore and tape fixed the LOD.


what do u use now? how can tape fix laser mouse LOD?


----------



## Cabbs

Quote:



Originally Posted by *obi.van.kenobi*


what do u use now? how can tape fix laser mouse LOD?


I use a Razer Abyssus. The fix is to put tape over roughly half of the sensor hole but make sure the "eye" of the sensor is still uncovered. The idea is to reduce the intensity of the IR LED.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:



Originally Posted by *AquaSurfer*


Tests of x-760h's sensor: http://www.mediafire.com/?qyoxapzoztw5pw3


Your tests is innaccurate i think. You need clear move from one side to other with pause for accurate recordings. Put mouse to one side, move it clearly (mouse must be always on surface when you move it) and stop on other side. Pause. Put mouse to one side... etc.

On your recordings i see that you "take off" mouse when move it.

Hope you understand me.


----------



## AquaSurfer

Yes, but then I wouldn't be able to reach such high speeds. I can only say that I cannot reach malfunction speed on any dpi/hz and only negative accel at some, which is why I test it that way.
Also now we can see that it is 16bit data path and you were right about:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace;14177852*
> Kragarmendes, my intuition said me that with 125 Hz this limitation will change from 256 (if it's realy present) to much more number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I predict that it will be 1024. Well, let's see.


On 400dpi125hz maximum registered value is 523 counts =4,146m/s
On 400dpi500hz maximum registered value is 145 counts =4,604m/s








*on 800dpi125hz maximum registered value is 1024* = 4054m/s. but maybe there could be more than 1024?
On 800dpi1khz maximum value is 128 = 4,064m/s, not counting spikes and clearly above it there is negative accel.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *AresSs*


yo mates !

First of all, sorry for my english.

I would like to ask something special. This topic is like a bible, really, no sarcasm here. However, I tough to all the french community, who maybe dont have all of these informations and dont maybe understand what you're saying. Then I would create a similar thing on the famous hardware.fr forum. So, my question is "May I use your Sensor perf sheet on this french community ?"

As a matter of course, you'll quote as a source of this sheet.

Thanks for your consideration.

peace out young grasshoppers.


You can. Just credit the source


----------



## Kragarmendes

*fun2k*, you might wanna have a go at CM Storm.

*Emissary of Pain*, have a look at #33, #36 and #37 of this threat.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *AquaSurfer*


Also now we can see that it is 16bit data path (...)


That's why I was asking for 125Hz. If it was a limited data path the max counts per sample wouldn't increase with lowered polling rate








Also, with a limited data path, you should get a steady limit as seen in #331.
What you get, is perfectly normal malfunctioning behaviour at speeds far beyond what any sane human would realistically use


----------



## AquaSurfer

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


That's why I was asking for 125Hz. If it was a limited data path the max counts per sample wouldn't increase with lowered polling rate








*Also, with a limited data path, you should get a steady limit as seen in #331.*
What you get, is perfectly normal malfunctioning behaviour at speeds far beyond what any sane human would realistically use










It seems that there are limits 1024 for 125hz, 256 for 500hz and 128 for 1000hz, is it normal?
example:

and zoom 

When i dont reach those counts values(its 145 out of 256 at 500hz) i can go above 4m/s, without any clipping example:

So i think that it is not "perfectly normal malfunctioning behaviour".


----------



## Kragarmendes

What I was talking about are the "cracks" that show all over your data, for example in your 800dpi1khz set (other than the first large bump!). I mean the spikes where the counts rise steeply to a high value and suddenly drop down entirely. This is what I found the most common behaviour of sensors when you push them too far (i.e. too fast). (I don't know if it is just the sensor outputting no information when it is being moved faster than it can register or if it is the MCU/firmware reporting no information because the sensor is only producing bull**** at high speeds.) In any case, I assume that these are the limitations of the sensor itself or something related to it.
Let's have a closer look... in your case this indeed seems to happen at 128 counts for 800dpi1khz and at 1000 counts for 800dpi125hz. In both cases and for 800cpi(!), this is equivalent to ~4m/s which is very fast and more than you'd ever need. Since it is the same physical speed, we have another hint that the maximum detectable speed for the sensor is met. That's alright since any sensor will have it's limits and if it's at 4m/s we can be very happy with it.
However, sadly there are cases where additional and unnecessary(!) limitations are introduced somewhere on the way between the mouse sensor and the USB port of your computer. This is for example the case with OS MLT 04 based mice and the Abyssus 3G where the USB data path is limited to 8bit (max 128 counts). So since the maximum counts per sample are fixed, more counts can only be transmitted if more samples are transmitted, i.e. the polling rate is risen for example from 125Hz to 500Hz. Instead of 128x125=16000 counts (~1m/s @400cpi) you'd get 64000 counts (~4m/s @400cpi) per second.
In your case it is not the speed varying with polling rate but the maximum counts per sample. That's why I think the 4m/s limitation is not caused by this particular type of limitation.

Now, about the plots from your post... First, are they all taken at 800cpi??
There is indeed one of those "plateaus" at the beginning of your 800dpi1khz set. Don't know why it once just clips and otherwise breaks down entirely... 
The 500Hz bump looks like the first one in the 400dpi500hz set. So 145 counts @500Hz are met. That's about 4.6m/s but obviously only at 400cpi. 145 counts @500Hz and 800cpi result in only 2.3m/s. So I don't know if the sensor always outputs 800cpi and the MCU/firmware just down-interpolates or if there are really two hardware sensor resolutions. In the latter case, it could indeed be that the sensor (or the MCU/firmware) has different malfunction speeds depending on the resolution.
But it all doesn't matter since you won't be able to reach those speeds realistically imo.


----------



## AquaSurfer

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


Now, about the plots from your post... First, are they all taken at 800cpi??
There is indeed one of those "plateaus" at the beginning of your 800dpi1khz set. Don't know why it once just clips and otherwise breaks down entirely...


First is 800cpi1khz+zoom and the other is 400cpi500hz. It breaks down entirely because of the way I do those tests, I simply sometimes run out of my pad and desk. It is my fault not sensor.









Quote:



Originally Posted by *AquaSurfer*





Clipping is easier to achieve on 800cpi because it is easier to reach those values:

Quote:



Originally Posted by *AquaSurfer*


It seems that there are limits 1024 for 125hz, 256 for 500hz and 128 for 1000hz, is it normal?


Samples in one count that is. Above which there is neg. accel.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


But it all doesn't matter since you won't be able to reach those speeds realistically imo.


True.








And thanks for your valuable input.


----------



## Ufasas

tried logi g400? same as mx518 comparing tracking? who can tell


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Ufasas*


tried logi g400? same as mx518 comparing tracking? who can tell


Uses the same sensor as the MX518 & G5 v2; it shouldn't be much different. The internals may be slightly tweaked and drivers slightly more optimized.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Uses the same sensor as the MX518 & G5 v2; it shouldn't be much different. The internals may be slightly tweaked and drivers slightly more optimized.


G5v2 used the same ADNS-6010 laser sensor as the G5v1.

I believe the G400 uses the same 3080 as the 518 has, but It's still unconfirmed until someone opens one up


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Skylit*


G5v2 used the same ADNS-6010 laser sensor as the G5v1.

I believe the G400 uses the same 3080 as the 518 has, but It's still unconfirmed until someone opens one up










I thought the G5 v2 used the same sensor as the MX518; that's what I was told (and read) numerous times.

If I'm wrong then I am, as I only have the V1 (and still love that guy.)


----------



## Cabbs

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


I thought the G5 v2 used the same sensor as the MX518; that's what I was told (and read) numerous times.

If I'm wrong then I am, as I only have the V1 (and still love that guy.)


Both versions of the G5 are laser, while the MX518 is optical. They absolutely have different sensors.


----------



## Tator Tot

Well as I said, I was just going off what I heard.

Still though, MX518 & G5 (in terms of sensor and feel) are some of the nicest mice I've ever owned. The G500 is my current favorite; though it could be a bit heavier and more bulky in my opinion. 
Only because I have such large hands.


----------



## Ufasas

ok read about g400, is a bit lighter than mx518, wheel feels strange, makes noise, haha, so sombody offered to put mx518 wheel instead of g400 with guide of photos, despite that, other things are as in mx518, drivers tweaked etc, but didnt read about tracking yet, i guess same


----------



## nlmiller0015

Wow I cant belive A4 tech have so many interpolated dpi mice


----------



## Wararchon

Well if you avoid the interpolated dpi, their mice are still top notch (the few opticals at least).


----------



## Farih

Pffffttt... i still cant decide on a mouse.
Really would like to order one within 2 days so i can add it in other orders and dont have to pay extra shipping fee's.

I have a CM Storm Sentinel Advance now, i love its shape but the sensor isnt super good. I glaw grip this mouse.

With the help of Skylift i am now thinking of these mice.

1. CM storm spawn. [seems so little for my hands]
2. Razor Deathadder
3. Razor Abyssus
4. Roccat Kone+ [specs look good but maybe not so good for my type of grip]
5. Steelseries Xai.

I use a glaw grip.
Shape of a sentinel advance works nice for me. [about same as mx518 shape] i really like the weight of the sentinel to.
I dont mind dragging my pinky. _
Really tempted with the Spawn, Deathadder and Xai.

Also need a new mousepad, i use a steelseries 5L now and absolutely love it but now after more then 2 years it starts to wear down. best mousepad i ever used though.
Sadly i cant order a new 5L anymore. Any tips on a similar mousepad ?_


----------



## squarebox

Hi Farih,

What size hands do you have (glove sizing)?
Did you consider the G9x or Alienware Tactx?

I have small hand and claw grip, and I have tested all the mice that you have listed.
My rating : Deathadder > Spawn > Abyssus > Xai > Kone

Deathadder is best and safest bet.
Spawn is great for people with smaller hands.
Abyssus falls behind due to the lack of side buttons but they are great as a laptop gaming mouse.
Xai is a tad too big for my small hands and have issue with certain motherboards.
Kone+ is plain bad.

Personally I have never tested a 5L.
If you like hardpads, Steelseries 4HD/9HD and Razer Destructor/Scarab are great choices.
If you like clothpads, Steelseries Qck is one of the best.

EDIT: cant comment on the Puretrak Talent as I dont own one and I'm more of a hardpad user.


----------



## hza

It's difficult to recommend a mouse because of ergonomics. Other than that I'd say Xai because it's similar to an IMO 1.1, but with better sensor and whatnot. Of course everyone's got a different taste.
For mouse pad, well... Bullveyr recommended me a Artisan Kai.g3 pad. I took the Kai.g3 Hien Soft-L version and what can I say? I'm more than impressed. lol However, at the end of August they release they release the Hayate version which should be even "better". At least Artisan says so. I believe them because the Hien already proved to be very accurate, so to say. And I'll buy the Kai.g3 Hayate pad 100 % since the Hien is the greatest pad I know, no matter what it's made of.


----------



## Farih

I'm a big man but have rather small hands i think.
Come's down to a deathadder, Spawn or Xai now...wish i could test them first








The Spawn is the cheapest of all and Xai the most expensive. Hmmm Deathadder or Spawn...

For the mousepad, the Steelseries 5L is a hard pad but with a rather soft top. Its also very smooth. I have tryed a few other hardpads before but they give a wierd granular feel on your hand while moving the mouse... i dont like that.
I like the feel of good quality clothpads but they never last long enough for me + they get dirty quik.
Looking for something similar to replace the 5L, Hardpad with a soft smooth base, easy to clean and i like it to be big.

Edit: Isnt the Steelseries 5C about the same as a 5L ? except for the WoW design offcourse.

Thanks.


----------



## Wararchon

In terms of sensors: Spawn>DA>Xai. However, if its between DA or Spawn, I would suggest picking the one that fits your hand the best. The Spawn is purely claw, so if you have a habit of palming sometimes, then it's probably not for you (unless your hands are tiny).

Both DA and Spawn works well on hard pads, but cloth pads are still the best for opticals IMO. For a quality cloth pad, go with Puretrak Talent or Artisian Hien Value Edition or another Artisian soft pad.


----------



## Maxadus

Can anyone tell me what the sensor in the new "NZXT Avatar S" is? Also can someone tell me the dimensions(size) of this new mouse. Thanks.

Also any information on when the Thermaltake Azurues mini, and the new Steelseries 1.1 mouse comes out? Thanks again.


----------



## Bullveyr

Out of my head it's a Cypress OvationONS II sensor.


----------



## Farih

Trying a spawn, Deathadder and a G9X atm.
the Spawn feels to wierd in my hands so it come's down to the deathadder or g9x.

The G9X feels best in my hands but it acts a bit wierd when you lift it and the deathadder doesnt.

Is there a way to get rid of that thing that when you lift the mouse the cursor still move's a bit ?
When i lift the deathadder the cursor movement goes away alot sooner then the G9X.
Will going to a cloth or fully hard mat make a difference in this ? [use hard pad with rather soft top now]


----------



## Wararchon

With all laser mice like G9x, you need a good hardpad. Probably steelseries 4hd or 9hd. 
For DA, apply magic tape and that should reduce LOD by half.


----------



## Farih

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Wararchon*


With all laser mice like G9x, you need a good hardpad. Probably steelseries 4hd or 9hd. 
For DA, apply magic tape and that should reduce LOD by half.


What is magic tape and where to put it ?


----------



## Cabbs

Non-transparent tape over about half of the sensor hole, leaving a clear path for the sensor. The idea is to reduce the intensity of the IR LED to reduce liftoff distance.


----------



## Wararchon

It looks as if its frosted. You can also search it up on youtube for a more in depth guide.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Don't know about the G9x's software but with the Mionix Naos 5000 (same sensor) you get the option to set the LOD according to your liking i.e. adjust it to be as low as possible for your preferred surface. It's kinda palm-grip style but with a low profile...


----------



## Farih

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kragarmendes*


Don't know about the G9x's software but with the Mionix Naos 5000 (same sensor) you get the option to set the LOD according to your liking i.e. adjust it to be as low as possible for your preferred surface. It's kinda palm-grip style but with a low profile...


I dont see a setting for LOD on the G9X sosftware.

I have tryed to apply tape, took a few attempts to get it right but its working now








Have the tape over a third of the sensor.

I think the G9X feels better in my hands, but its a bit strange you need to tape it to make it work proper, the Deathadder is fine with LOD.

Thx for this great tip guys


----------



## ScorpioNicus

I'm pretty sure much of this data is inaccurate. The puretrak valor for example has its statistics listed as what Puretrak simply said it is going to be (This product was a disaster upon release; many people complained about the sensor. The one I bought for instance causes the cursor to bob up and down when moving even slowly from side to side). The point I'm trying to make is that a performance sheet shouldn't be based on a collection of totally unreliable data. There needs to be actual tests done with machinery that moves the mouse at a predetermined speed and distance which is then compared to the results shown in a mouse movement recording program. I believe esreality did a test like this long ago but with a very limited number of mice. I would love to see the results of an actual professional testing environment with an up to date list of mice. Hmmm now where in the world is there a nerd rich enough to do this?


----------



## stickyh

wow that thread is full of awesomeness. Its all i ever wanted to find !

So guys, after studying the google spreadsheet i cant find a mouse that could fit me well except (and its not listed in) the razer spectre (Philips Twin Eye PLN 2302 i guess)

So im asking you if you have some other ideas, because id like to have a mouse who:

-have no sensor problem
-is small (cm storm inferno atm, cool but really too big for me)
-have 2 side buttons, because beside gaming it makes browsing easier
-have customizable DPI and not some stuck premade set-up like "800 / 1000 / 1600"

Sorry for my poor english.
thx


----------



## ElixirLT

Quote:



Originally Posted by *stickyh*


wow that thread is full of awesomeness. Its all i ever wanted to find !

So guys, after studying the google spreadsheet i cant find a mouse that could fit me well except (and its not listed in) the razer spectre (Philips Twin Eye PLN 2302 i guess)

So im asking you if you have some other ideas, because id like to have a mouse who:

-have no sensor problem
-is small (cm storm inferno atm, cool but really too big for me)
-have 2 side buttons, because beside gaming it makes browsing easier
-have customizable DPI and not some stuck premade set-up like "800 / 1000 / 1600"

Sorry for my poor english.
thx


Well, currently I don't think there is one like that, there's no mouse on there except the Deathadder that doesn't have sensor issues, and that mouse is pretty far from small. If you want small, with low amount of sensor issues and 2 side butons (what I wanted) you're kinda stuck with either the CM Storm Spawn orrrrrr the G9x. The Spawn has preset 800,1600,3500 DPI; However the G9x has more sensor issues, but customizable DPI.

Pick Your Poison


----------



## mardi

Does anyone know the sensor in the g400?


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mardi*


Does anyone know the sensor in the g400?


It's an updated MX-518 more or less. 
Apparently it has some issue with jitter when the setpoint software is installed.


----------



## Wararchon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stickyh;14402761*
> wow that thread is full of awesomeness. Its all i ever wanted to find !
> 
> So guys, after studying the google spreadsheet i cant find a mouse that could fit me well except (and its not listed in) the razer spectre (Philips Twin Eye PLN 2302 i guess)
> 
> So im asking you if you have some other ideas, because id like to have a mouse who:
> 
> -have no sensor problem
> -is small (cm storm inferno atm, cool but really too big for me)
> -have 2 side buttons, because beside gaming it makes browsing easier
> -have customizable DPI and not some stuck premade set-up like "800 / 1000 / 1600"
> 
> Sorry for my poor english.
> thx


Thats currently not possible. I'd go with CM spawn (if you use >800 DPI) or Zowie EC2 (Not sure if it has custom DPI).


----------



## early

I didn't read the whole thread.. where can I open that .wav made by the 'loger' to read the actual speed?
Most audio editors don't have speed-relevant numbers on the vertical side, just dB values.


----------



## early

EDIT 2: Nevermind, found the instructions here.

If anyone knows another program for this besides Audition let me know.


----------



## early

Here are some Audition screenshots for an Ikari Optical at various CPI, always at 1000 Hz.

400 CPI:









800 CPI:









1600 CPI one:









1600 CPI two:









A couple of questions:
1. Why is the line at 800 CPI so zigzaggy? (I could reproduce this at two PCs.)
2. I play at med-high sens (1600 CPI and 1.9 in CS:S). Am I still better off at 800 CPI, even tho I'd have to increase the sens to 3.8 in CS:S?

EDIT: Although, outside of this test, I don't really see a difference. In Windows (on the desktop) both 1600 and 800 CPI have the same negative acceleration at high speed. But in CS:S, neither does, they both seem to perform just fine.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Nice graphs, *early*!

Regarding 2.: As far as pixel accuracy is concerned it also depends on the screen resolution you play on. Check
http://phoon.us/mouse/
for how much DPI you need for pixel accuracy. Then again, I don't know if the 'collision detection' (between bullet and enemy) of game engines works on a pixel basis since what eventually gets displayed with pixels in 2D is virtually 3D at some point








Since one mouse count changes the first person view by 0.022 degrees, I assume pixel accuracy is not the ultimate measure ^^

Has *F u r u y á* ever posted his R script??
Anyway, attached is what I made for Octave. It is not very refined but it should work. Suggestions and questions are welcome









mouseplot.zip 1k .zip file


----------



## mardi

http://www.f-paper.com/?i715960_8#

Found from other thread. New g400 uses Avago S3095. Diff from mx518?


----------



## 161029

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RK777;14529052*
> Yes, the sensor info is pretty much non existent... until NOW.


The G400 uses an Avago S3095 which is basically an Avago ADNS-3090 with prediction you can't turn off and slightly higher dpi. I'm happy about everything in this mouse except for the prediction.


----------



## Wararchon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HybridCore;14542232*
> The G400 uses an Avago S3095 which is basically an Avago ADNS-3090 with prediction you can't turn off and slightly higher dpi. I'm happy about everything in this mouse except for the prediction.


Well they stated that it was gonna be the same mouse with higher dpi and new shell. They wanted to keep it the same as the popular mx518, which meant keeping the prediction.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wararchon;14543686*
> Well they stated that it was gonna be the same mouse with higher dpi and new shell. They wanted to keep it the same as the popular mx518, which meant keeping the prediction.


If its based off the 3090 then they could have simply made it an option in the drivers just like CM did with the spawn, that way a lot more people would be interested in the mouse.


----------



## whybother

Wouldn't a prediction toggle require onboard memory to update the sensor each time with patched firmware?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whybother;14550997*
> Wouldn't a prediction toggle require onboard memory to update the sensor each time with patched firmware?


ADNS 3090 is natively prediction free. The toggling on the spawn comes from the mouse's MCU (Micro control Unit).

Only way it's possible is with a custom srom(firmware) since I'm assuming that the G400 doesn't utilize a MCU.

I personally think Logitech approached Avago with their current 3080E and told them to make it better, but then again Avago could have reworked their 3090 to make it perform similarly to the 3080E.

I know I'm guilty, but we shouldn't assume


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Skylit*


... since I'm assuming that the G400 doesn't utilize a MCU.


Every mouse has a MCU, at least as long as you also count single chip solution (MCU and sensor in a single package).


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*


Every mouse has a MCU, at least as long as you also count single chip solution (MCU and sensor in a single package).


I meant external like the spawn


----------



## Bullveyr

... and the G400 has a external MCU, like all mice with higher end sensors.


----------



## chadrew

Does anyone know if Sonix sensors are any good?


----------



## theqat

http://steelseries.com/us/products/m...lseries-sensei New top-of-the-line guy from Steelseries, making some pretty big claims (a mouse processor equivalent to a 75 MHz Pentium! 16.8 million LED colors!) I really hope we can find out which sensor this thing uses soon









OH wow, I'm sorry--I didn't see the thread in the main part of the forum because I just have this thread benchmarked.


----------



## Wararchon

Quote:



Originally Posted by *theqat*


http://steelseries.com/us/products/m...lseries-sensei New top-of-the-line guy from Steelseries, making some pretty big claims (a mouse processor equivalent to a 75 MHz Pentium! 16.8 million LED colors!) I really hope we can find out which sensor this thing uses soon









OH wow, I'm sorry--I didn't see the thread in the main part of the forum because I just have this thread benchmarked.


What i really need is 11,000+ CPI. and 16 million+ colors. Looks like steelseries is back on track with what mice are all about.


----------



## age95

Hi guys

Im looking for a good mouse like 2months after my old one broken. After reading tons of reviews I found your list and read like 20 pages with the hope to find something about my two models I choose before. So I must to decide between DA(idk wuts better V3(black) or V2(with light) and Xai (does it have angle snapping?). DA is pretty big(my friend got it) and has buggy wheel(I can live with high LOD of it) so I hope Xai is a little smaller







and has better performance. What do you think? I will buy a new screen 22-24inch and like to play mostly at +1000dpi and like 1000Hz. If you need more informations ask me and I will be really happy if you can help me to decide.









Edit: I selected DA because of its sensor and Xai i dont know why I just asked me why not maby it is better or smaller.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *age95;14632468*
> Hi guys
> 
> Im looking for a good mouse like 2months after my old one broken. After reading tons of reviews I found your list and read like 20 pages with the hope to find something about my two models I choose before. So I must to decide between DA(idk wuts better V3(black) or V2(with light) and Xai (does it have angle snapping?). DA is pretty big(my friend got it) and has buggy wheel(I can live with high LOD of it) so I hope Xai is a little smaller and has better performance. What do you think? I will buy a new screen 22-24inch and like to play mostly at +1000dpi and like 1000Hz. If you need more informations ask me and I will be really happy if you can help me to decide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I selected DA because of its sensor and Xai i dont know why I just asked me why not maby it is better or smaller.


What grip do you use?

Sensorwise, the DA's are still unmatched IMO. All versions of the mouse perform optimal under the latest firmware.

The mouse is meant for palm grippers and can be pretty stressful if you want to claw or fingertip the mouse. I'm not saying that it's impossible to do, but you may find comfort in other mice.

As for the Xai, the Sensor is pretty finicky. It's not unusable but it performs optimally on hard surfaces and takes a huge performance hit on cloth. There is also a small positive acceleration flaw within the sensor itself and it isn't really fixable.

On the other hand the shape is really good and I don't think anyone will complain about not being able to grip the thing effectively.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr;14554932*
> ... and the G400 has a external MCU, like all mice with higher end sensors.


ohh my mistake ;o


----------



## age95

Quote:



What grip do you use?


70%Palm and 30% Claw xD

I saw now the new Steelseries mouse Sensei and I think to wait for it. I saw it has new sensor so maby it wonÂ´t have acceleration.


----------



## Derp

Quote:



Originally Posted by *age95*


70%Palm and 30% Claw xD

I saw now the new Steelseries mouse Sensei and I think to wait for it. I saw it has new sensor so maby it wonÂ´t have acceleration.


It has been confirmed that the Sensei uses the same old sensor found in the Xai and It still has acceleration. It's clearly a mouse designed to profit from ignorant sheep.


----------



## Skar

sheep that like color


----------



## Kragarmendes

Saw an *Elecom GM20* just today









Since I like the button layout, I'd like to know its sensor in case any of you knows








It is about 1.6"/4cm high, so it's pretty much palm but it's also got kind of a "waist" so clawing might work as well.


----------



## age95

And the Kana(the second mouse like Kinzu)? Is there really no mouse with a "normal" sensor that has no acceleration and drift control? I am asking because DA is a little big for me but when there is no other mouse with flawless sensor I have no choice....


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *age95;14686205*
> And the Kana(the second mouse like Kinzu)? Is there really no mouse with a "normal" sensor that has no acceleration and drift control? I am asking because DA is a little big for me but when there is no other mouse with flawless sensor I have no choice....


There's the Abyssus, but it's a risk. Most of them jitter on popular cloth surfaces.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Have you considered the CM Storm Spawn, *age95*?
It is supposed to be more suited for a claw-grip (lower and shorter but still wide) and with the latest firmware(s), its performance should be about on par with the DAs'.
Are you on cloth or hard mat?


----------



## Frenchy

Is the Razer Abyssus LOL IS exactly the same as the DA tracking refresh 3.5g because according to the topics she would still have a lot of problems and yet some said it shipped the same very recent firmware that the DA 3.5g I think v2.45.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Frenchy*


Is the Razer Abyssus LOL IS exactly the same as the DA tracking refresh 3.5g because according to the topics she would still have a lot of problems and yet some said it shipped the same very recent firmware that the DA 3.5g I think v2.45.


Can't answer the firmware question since we're not Razer engineers, but my Abyssus doesn't seem to exhibit any tracking flaws on the surfaces I've tried.

The main issue with the Abyssus was that it jittered like the DA respawn did under early firmware, although we can't really keep track of what abyssus' are good or bad.


----------



## Frenchy

Quote:


> although we can't really keep track of what abyssus' are good or bad.


It is imperative that an honest personn compare the tracking between Deathadder Refresh the Abyssus LoL and Abyssus normal.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Frenchy;14706417*
> It is imperative that an honest personn compare the tracking between Deathadder Refresh the Abyssus LoL and Abyssus normal.


They use the same sensors, tracking is identical.


----------



## Frenchy

Quote:


> They use the same sensors, tracking is identical.


You do not know ! Even if they use the same sensor Refresh the Deathadder has a much better tracking than the others thanks to its advanced firmware that seem to correct the many problems of tracking it was in its infancy (jitter) on the mouse pad hard color white cloth on the carpet.









You can not say they have the same tracking knowing that you did not compare and that more Abyssus have no option firmware !

I am still waiting a rigorous comparison between these three Razer.


----------



## Skylit

The Abyssus' firmware isn't something you can keep tabs on. You either getting a working one that tracks fine on cloth or you're unlucky and get one that jitters (potentially loaded with an older firmware). What I meant by tracking "Identically" is that my current Abyssus under w/e firmware it's loaded with tracks just as good as my black edition DA under real world testing.

Correction, my Abyssus randomly started jittering at certain vertical angles after it was working fine for a good two weeks. My apologies frenchy.

Your Deathadder question:

The most recent DA3G firmware is 1.39.
The most recent DA3.5G firmware is 2.45.
The most recent DABE firmware is 1.01.

The 3G Deathadder uses it's own firmware and is completely different than the others due to the older S3668 sensor.

The DA3.5G is currently on 2.45.

The DABE is most likely preloaded with 2.44 (1.00), but was renamed possibly due to MCU interactions with the lights. (im unsure) 1.00 and 2.44 got updated to 1.01 and 2.45 on the same exact day according to Razer.


----------



## Frenchy

Thanks Skylit tomorrow I would write my more detailed response to your post


----------



## xXShakeXx

Complicated, i have read all the 48 pages of this topic and uncountable reviews trying to find a best mouse for general gaming But I could not get a satisfactory answer.









After all that i am among the DeathAdder and the G9x, and i have some questions









Which pad is the best of best for deathadder? and G9X?









what I read it seems that in cloth pad has positive and negative acceleration and hard pad has only negative, but was not very clear. The problem of acceleration on G9X or avago 9500 sensors can be reduced by using a correct pad? if yes which one?

I usually play at 3000 dpi and with 1 sensivitity on games with the engine source like TF2,L4D2,CS,COD etc... these two mice will serve me well?









And sorry for my english, english is not my first language









Thanks in advance to all who help


----------



## AquaSurfer

*xXShakeXx*
Deathadder (3g, 3.5g and be) has flawless sensor and will work great on most if not all available mouse pads.
G9x with 9500 has positive acceleration inherent in sensor. With hard pad it works best and you have this pos. accel.
On cloth this sensor still has this positive accel but also gets negative accel (probably skipping) that is higher than this pos. accel. resulting in negative accel.

Is it possible to find a mouse pad that will produce same amount of negative accel as pos. accel so that the result would be no accel?
No, because both accelerations are not constant and they vary a lot so on cloth it always gonna be inconsistent.


----------



## Farih

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xXShakeXx;14713476*
> Complicated, i have read all the 48 pages of this topic and uncountable reviews trying to find a best mouse for general gaming But I could not get a satisfactory answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :
> 
> After all that i am among the DeathAdder and the G9x, and i have some questions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which pad is the best of best for deathadder? and G9X?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what I read it seems that in cloth pad has positive and negative acceleration and hard pad has only negative, but was not very clear. The problem of acceleration on G9X or avago 9500 sensors can be reduced by using a correct pad? if yes which one?
> 
> I usually play at 3000 dpi and with 1 sensivitity on games with the engine source like TF2,L4D2,CS,COD etc... these two mice will serve me well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And sorry for my english, english is not my first language
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance to all who help


I have the G9x on a Steelseries 5C, before on a 5L.
These are semi hard pads, the base is hard but the top has a half soft feel to it, not like cloth though. Think the G9x tracks fine on this.

The biggest problem with the G9x is LoD, wich is easely above 10mm !!
I have to use a little bit of tape slightly over the sensor to get a normal low LoD, without it i cant work normal with this mouse.


----------



## age95

Quote:


> Im looking for a good mouse like 2months after my old one broken. After reading tons of reviews I found your list and read like 20 pages with the hope to find something about my two models I choose before. So I must to decide between DA(idk wuts better V3(black) or V2(with light) and Xai (does it have angle snapping?). DA is pretty big(my friend got it) and has buggy wheel(I can live with high LOD of it) so I hope Xai is a little smaller and has better performance. What do you think? I will buy a new screen 22-24inch and like to play mostly at +1000dpi and like 1000Hz. If you need more informations ask me and I will be really happy if you can help me to decide.
> 
> Edit: I selected DA because of its sensor and Xai i dont know why I just asked me why not maby it is better


Guys I forgot at all that I need also macros. So I see Xai has them and the Cm Storm Spawn also I think DA doesnt. I looked on Razer mices the Imepator 4g seems to be perfect for me. Some guy on youtube said me you can fix its issues(delay and z-axis issue) by using the right pad(he got razer destructor) and updating the firmware. Can anybody confirm, because it would be perfect.


----------



## xXShakeXx

Thanks for replies, can someone say for me why some people not like the razer mamba and imperator? which problem their sensor have? or is only because of the price?


----------



## Kragarmendes

Know your Google


----------



## eosgreen

why did we change the sheets format... i cant look up crucial information like prediction and acceleration WHY WHY WHY?!?!


----------



## Kragarmendes

The old list is still linked under the new list.
Other than that I personally agree with you.
I understand the official reason was that things got too subjective (e.g. towards mouse mats) with the old list and objectivity was intended to be increased with the new one.


----------



## Skylit

I actually asked for feedback a while back, but no one bothered to respond. The list itself has been updated for about two weeks now.

As for the recorded tracking speeds, would everyone agree on using either outerspace's logger or enotus mouse test? While the old list gave an idea, the results were very dynamic and not a linear representation between mice. This will require a reference mousepad(s).

@eos. I can pretty much fill in which mice have correction off the top of my head, but I'll be using a different system instead of yes or no.


----------



## eosgreen

naw its cool cus i also have pretty much memorized what have prediction and what do not but im in love with the old list because of things like that which are not on the new list thats all

im still pissed about the new g100 300 and 400 MAKE SURE YOU PSOT BAD THINGS ABOUT THESE MICE


----------



## Skylit

Quote:



Originally Posted by *eosgreen*


im still pissed about the new g100 300 and 400 MAKE SURE YOU PSOT BAD THINGS ABOUT THESE MICE


The G400 is a good mouse. I haven't tried the G100 yet, but I'll happily give my impressions when I receive mine.

From the looks of it, they do have a few sensor flaws, but I think it's being blown way out of proportion tbh.


----------



## hza

Yeah, G400 isn't bad at all (after 2 days testing). I'm just pissed off because mouse1 is a little bit loose. Maybe I'll buy another one or... another MX518, EC1/2 Blue or Kova+. I'm really not sure what to choose at all...

B2T, I miss the perfect control (and maybe malfunction speed) in the new list.


----------



## thecolin

So does the Philips Twin Eye PLN 2032 sensor have no prediction or acceleration?


----------



## ZareliMan

Does someone know what sensor the Ttesports Black Element has ?

It's not listed, how did you know the sensors on the list anyway?... many brands don't tell that information on their advertising or websites.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZareliMan;15337079*
> Does someone know what sensor the Ttesports Black Element has ?


Looks like A9500.
Quote:


> ..., how did you know the sensors on the list anyway?... many brands don't tell that information on their advertising or websites.


There are enough people that just open the mouse and often enough you can simply tell by the specs.


----------



## ZareliMan

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*


Looks like A9500.

There are enough people that just open the mouse and often enough you can simply tell by the specs.


ItÂ´s visually impossible to diferentiate the A9500 from the S9500, is it ?

I think this one has the S9500 so the interpolation just goes from 5700 to 6500 (and not from 5000 to 6500 which would be awful).


----------



## Bullveyr

At least from outside.


----------



## whybother

Just opened up the Gigabyte M6900.

Omron D2FC-F-7N switches for mouse1 and mouse2 + TTC Wheel

Official weight 106g excluding cable


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whybother;15519125*
> Just opened up the Gigabyte M6900.
> 
> Omron D2FC-F-7N switches for mouse1 and mouse2 + TTC Wheel
> 
> Official weight 106g excluding cable


added.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

i got this mouse as a gift: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Optical-Scroll-1000dpi-Dell/dp/B004ERPRUI]DELL USB Black Optical Scroll Mouse 1000dpi , Dell P/Ns: HRG26 , 93H7Y , 11D3V , 9RRC7, Brand NEW: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories[/URL].

very small and lightweight, so could be good for high sens finger tip (for someone who has really small hands). writing on the sensor says "S57PO", 1000dpi. switches are TTC, wheel encoder doesn't have any writing on it but it looks and feels like TTC. liftoff distance seems about the same as 3080 sensor. usb rate overclocks nicely to 500hz and is completely stabile (i never use 1000hz).

tested it with enotus mouse test, 2.56 m/s perfect control rate, which very much surprised me, because it's a very cheap mouse.

took a picture with a4tech x718f, wmo 1.1 and verbatim rapier v1 for size comparison


----------



## AquaSurfer

Check two more things pls. Prediction and Acceleration, if you don't know how PM me.
You can also try tape-fix and check malfunction speed again.
This mouse can be really good.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

and the results are in.

enotus mouse test without tape fix (for some reason i get very low precision scores with all of my mice, i must be doing something wrong...):


enotus mouse test with tape fix:


there is some level of prediction, but it isn't something that will hamper. tried playing quake live, and it's prediction feels quite good compared to 3080 sensor in my a4tech.
in reference to wmo:


just the dell mouse:


the feet that come with the mouse are very thin, and the mouse it self scrapes on the mouse pad, so another pair of skates above these original would be well advised:


from what i could gather it seems it's accel free.
.....


----------



## Skylit

Interesting little mouse you got there. Can you take a pic of the inside?

It's available on Amazon US for 9.95 shipped if anyone in the states wants to try it. (Fulfilled/Prime)


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

insides:







easy addons: old discarded skates (old ones removed), tape over sensor (made it work after 5 tries), and some rubber which usually goes under table legs (which makes it awesome to use):





for your viewing pleasure


----------



## Skylit

Hmm. it's an avago sensor. ;o

Switches and wheel are fairly decent too. Not bad for a OEM'd mouse lol

Edit: Sensor might be based off this model. http://www.avagotech.com/pages/en/na...adns-5700-xxxx


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

after i have used it for 4 days, this is what i've gathered. great sensor with low prediction (quote form official page: "High-performance, reliable optical engine with faster, more accurate response" - correct). shape too small, at least for my taste. cheap, and no gay flashy lights - excellent.

however, if u are in the cheap mouse buying business, i would still recommend wmo and a4tech x7's (the ones with wmo look alike shape like mine x718) as a thing to buy.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Since it is quite affordable I got myself a Dell MS111-P.
Something interesting:
http://we.pcinlife.com/thread-1710443-1-1.html
I think it is actually an S57P0 (zero, not "ohh").

MATTER OF TASTE:
- small shape
- fingertip > claw > palm grip
- light: ~66g (without cable)
- smooth mouse wheel (only slight notches)
- pressure point on the high side (buttons and wheel)
- 1000cpi
- no bling (PRO in my eyes *g*)

PRO:
- price hard to beat
- high speed: up to 3.1m/s (tested on Propus)
- little prediction
- OCable to at least 500Hz
- easy to lift due to V-shape
- decent mouse wheel

CONTRA:
- 3 buttons
- quite some jitter at low speeds (on Qck + Propus): little regular and some irregular; more pronounced @500Hz OC
- quite high LOD: 2-3 CDs (tested on Qck); haven't tested tape-mod
- ~2.3% negative acceleration (tested on Propus)
- sturdy cable! (almost like wire)
- skatez; could be worse though

I think it is a good bugdet mouse for any non-palmer who can live with three buttons (except low-sensers playing CS1.6).

mouse.zip 39k .zip file


----------



## ARIKOmagic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Steelseries Kinzu V2Coming soon.Optical LEDTTC MechanicalOmron D2FC-F-7N (Pro Edition)


Hi skylit, nice list. Sry if this already has been answered.
You say that the kinzu v2 will have Omron D2FC-F-7N (*Pro Edition*) switches. Is that for the regular kinzu v2? And does that mean that a pro edition will be launched?


----------



## hza

I think it will be the same as with the original Kinzu, meaning, a regular Kinzu v2 with TTC switches and Omron switches for the Kinzu v2 Pro Edition. However, we'll have to wait until v2 is out.


----------



## kaingosu

Skylit i don't know if you're watching the "CM Spawn or Xornet; what are the differences?" thread, but can you please explain the difference between the malfunction speed of a sensor and the so called "max speed" (i'm guessing it's the speed that Enotus measures)? Obviously what Enotus reads is highly innacurate, but is this "max speed" ussually higher than the "real world" malfunction speed? And how much higher (innacurate) is it in your experience?
Thx in advance.


----------



## kaingosu

error


----------



## Tyson86-88

What is the best CM Spawn mouse or logitech g300? What advise?


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *obi.van.kenobi*
> 
> after i have used it for 4 days, this is what i've gathered. great sensor with low prediction (quote form official page: "High-performance, reliable optical engine with faster, more accurate response" - correct). shape too small, at least for my taste. cheap, and no gay flashy lights - excellent.
> 
> however, if u are in the cheap mouse buying business, i would still recommend wmo and a4tech x7's (the ones with wmo look alike shape like mine x718) as a thing to buy.


just a little update. now i have spent a quite reasonable amount of time with this mouse. i have to say that this must be the best finger tiping mouse i have tried so far.

just for comparison reasons i have borrowed abyssus and salmosa from friends, and it's my subjective opinion that it's much superior in build quality, and sensor posibly (did notice some jittering with both of them on cloth). it does fail a little in the button department, because omron is always better than TTC. however, considering the price, this is a must have.


----------



## GamersEdge

How do you change the amplify setting in audition, it will only read in db.


----------



## ARIKOmagic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> I think it will be the same as with the original Kinzu, meaning, a regular Kinzu v2 with TTC switches and Omron switches for the Kinzu v2 Pro Edition. However, we'll have to wait until v2 is out.


True that


----------



## Crypto72

Hi! I've been using outerspace's logger to get the data from my Roccat Kone v2 and I've come across something weird. In many measurements (swipes with the mouse) there seem to be unusual sample values. I've attached a screenshot so you can see what I mean. This happens using a mousepad and using just the table surface, and sometimes there are a couple of these irregularities in a swipe, not just one. The polling rate is 2 ms so I don't think that this can actually create problems in real life, but I'm curious about the explanation of such behavior.


----------



## AquaSurfer

*Crypto72* it's a little bit of negative acceleration but really small amount of it







.
This could be normal error (nothing is perfect) or caused by wrong/dirty mouse pad.
As long as you cannot feel it in game, there is nothing to be worried about.


----------



## Koeman

Hello everyone, this is my first post here. The reason I need your opinion is that I have a hard time finding a mouse suiting my, probably, demanding needs.

To begin with, I used to play hardcore FPS games back in my student days 2002 to 2007. I have used different mice and mousepads mainly from curiosity, and to find that little something which would make my gameplay better. I used:

- dell typical ball mouse
- ms optical mouse, the very first one
- mx500
- mx510
- razer diamondback
- razer copperhead
- logitech g5 v1

ratpadz, func, steelpad 5L, qpad CT, steelseries S&S,qck, black icemat,

To cut a long story short, my best combination ever was razer diamondback magma + qpad. The diamonback was the best mouse for me, claw gripper here with big hands but found it perfect for my aim. Precise, accurate, light, usb polling rate to 500hz, no acceleration fix and set to 1600dpi. After serving me a good 3 years of hardcore use it started to break, going on and off all the time. I then used the g5 which just wasn't good for me. It was skipping a lot, the very first laser g5 that was with one button on the side. For some time I quit gaming and now that I'm back into it, I started playing team fortress 2. I play on 1920x1080 on 23" monitor with 2ms refresh rate. My setup is decent, and It handles that resolution without any problem.

I've read a lot, and when I say a lot I mean A LOT. I needed a mouse to play again on a competitive level and g5 nor mx510 which I still have, couldn't do the trick. G5 because of the skipping and mx510 because of 800 dpi which are pretty low for me on that resolution and ingame if I raised the sensitivity I would lose on accuracy so It was not an option.

I needed a diamondback again. After a lot of reading I went out a bought a razer diamondback 3g earth green, the last one I found in a local store. Discontinued model, yet I've read a lot of things saying it was better than the first one. But unfortunately, it's not. The first one which had the BEST accuracy I ever had from a mouse, and not only the ones I listed but I've tried many others on different lan parties I've attended. The 3g version has far from the accuracy I want in my game, and why is that? Because of the huge mouse correction which I never heard before for some reason and something I missed when i was looking for which mouse to buy...Now I know my question is very typical nowadays but what I need from a mouse is:

- accuracy on 1920x1080 for mid-high sens in fps gaming so low dpi are not an option
- lightweight
- claw grip preferably but I can live up with anything which would give me the feeling of my old db
- no drift control/correction/angle snapping whatsoever!!
- no negative or positive acceleration

Any suggestions? I'm desperate and I can't afford spending 200 euros on mice just to try all the ones people are suggesting. I lean towards razer deathadder respawn version with the 3,5g sensor which has a firmware fixing drift control or is it coming without from factory? I'm confused. What would be the mouse meeting my needs other than that?

Thank your for your time and answers in advance.


----------



## Skylit

Hey. Do you recall which diamondback you used? Standard or Plasma edition?

Mouse used like 4 different sensors, although all of them had moderate amounts of "drift control/correction/angle snapping"

Original version had the Avago 3070/3080 (I think the 3070 had tracking problems)
Plasma version used the Avago 3088
The 3G version was the latest which used the Avago 3668

Deathadder/Abyssus 3.5G come with angle snapping/prediction set low.

Deathadder has upgradable firmware, while the Abyssus may suffer from jittery tracking as it they all differ from firmware set. (not upgradable)

I'd lean towards the abyssus based on your preferences and needs.


----------



## Crypto72

Hello Koeman, I'd go with the Deathadder 3G if you can find it anywhere (and if 1800 DPI is enough). I've had Logitech's G5v2, G500, Razer Krait, Razer Deathadder 3G, Roccat Kone v2, and I can say that the Deathadder 1800 DPI was the most precise one of them all.
I didn't try the Deathadder 3.5G so I can't give you advice on that. Well, the jitter problems with the DA 3.5G have been fixed with firmware upgrades, so it should be as good as the 3G.


----------



## Koeman

@skylit: I have the first version of diamondback which came out, the magma edition:



@crypto72: The 3G version of deathadder is very hard to find. They all sell the 3,5version - Deathadder Respawn and I just feel that if I buy it I'm taking a risk and might be disappointed since everyone talks about the old DA and some feedback saying that firmware update didn't help with prediction (can't recall where I've read that, I'm lost into google). If however the latest firmware is working flawlessly i would consider it. 1800dpi are more than enough for me (1920x1080 res, 6/11 windows, no accel fix and no accell commands on game startup, 1,50 sens ingame - team fortress 2 that is)

Thanks for your replies guys, appreciated. Just to let you know about the sequel of my story, I was about to reincarnate my old diamondback since I DO find a difference compared to the 3G and I didn't want to give up so easily. I found an old ms optical comfort 3000 mouse, took its cable off and I was gonna switch it with the one on my Diamondback which seems to be faulty (mouse was going on and off all the time, tried almost everything and I gave up). For some reason, I said to myself wait a bit before you do the change..Plugged my old diamondback to a separete usb hub, and surprisingly it worked without a hitch for the next 5 hours - gaming included! 1600 dpi, no drivers installed (windows 7 64bit), windows sens 6/11, no enhance mouse precision, 125hz polling rate. The feeling is absolutely amazing of having my diamondback working again...until it starts breaking on me again or something.

I would like to mention a couple of things though. I've always used the mouse @ 500hz. Since I haven't got any issues with it yet @ 125hz I'm thinking maybe 500hz will cause trouble? Maybe it got old and can't stand 500hz anymore so this is why 125hz work like a charm so far? Also played around with the cable, nothing happenned (and I was about to change the cable, remember..)

I don't know what to think, so far so good. In any case I have the db 3g brand new sitting next to me, but If the old one keeps working I will keep the 3g as a backup.

Now, the other thing worth mentioning and I will close this long message (again) is something I've noticed in mspaint: yes, the old diamondback can draw straight lines with ease. So it does have prediction (I thought it didn't since that's the reason I disliked the 3g at first!!!). Guys, as I said in my first message I've never heard of "prediction/correction/drift control/angle snapping" before and I considered the db as the best mouse I've ever used in fps gaming. Now I see it has prediction but probably a low level of it or something? I was amazed, really I didn't know I was playing with prediction all these years and after reading tons of topics about it, I think it got me biased to my DB 3g's judgement. However I insist, the reason I probably didn't know it back in the days must be that it has really low levels of prediction - that's my best guess.

I will keep you posted with anything that comes up in this diamondback's adventure of mine, I need to do more testing!

thank you for your time!


----------



## thirtyseven

Glad it worked out for you, I think the DB has decent amounts of prediction, but it's not something you ever notice unless you are used to mice without prediction (more accurately, with much less prediction, it's not gone completely). Out of all the optical mice you listed only the MS one probably had much less prediction. It's a preference thing, it's not a given that a mouse with less prediction is better, it's just different.


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koeman*
> 
> (...)
> - ms optical mouse, the very first one
> (...)


If you are talking about the "Microsoft Intelli Mouse with IntelliEye" (seriously, who came up with that name?), you are my friend.
Best ever shape, used it for about eight years - far too long since the sensor sucks








Also three buttons is not to my liking...

Given your selection and comments, you don't seem like much of a palmer.
Since you are also mid-high sense I demand that you try a ADNS-9500 mouse!
(G9x has good shape but feels flimsy and rattly in my hands but that might be subjective...)
People say the ADNS-9500 had positive acceleration but no matter how hard I tried, I could never find a trace of it.
So you should give it a try since it is pretty much flawless otherwise.
Apart from the G9x and Xai there are more palmy alternatives:
- Roccat Kone[+] (the plus is NOT optional)
- Mionix Naos 5000 (low palm shape)
- several cheaper ones (see list)

With the most recent firmwares the CM Storm Spawn is also a good option.


----------



## Koeman

@Kragarmendes: Yes mate, that's the one I'm talking about







Great mouse it was! I have big hands yet I believe I am a a fingertip/claw gripper indeed. I expertised in fingertip grip when first got hold of the diamondback and since then I can't palm any mouse, it just doesn't work for me. Even the ones you are supposed to palm, I'll claw them sooner or later









From all the mice you've listed, I envy the CM Storm Spawn the most! The looks are subjective and the ergonomy of the shape well, it's supposed to be good for my kind of grip. The least I care about is comfort to be honest, It can't be worse than diamondback, really. However I've been looking on their "unofficial" support forum and even if coolermaster is known to me for making PSU's and cases, they look to care a lot about customer feedback and trying to fix things via firmware update. The spawn looks very promising, only thing holding me back to give it a try is people who own it are not so many (to the extend of my knowledge) and I would like more opinions from serious fps gamers. The price is tempting though!

I will take a look of the adns-9500, but it's laser and I haven't had the best of experience with that technology so far. Thank you for your feedback mate!


----------



## Koeman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thirtyseven*
> 
> Glad it worked out for you, I think the DB has decent amounts of prediction, but it's not something you ever notice unless you are used to mice without prediction (more accurately, with much less prediction, it's not gone completely). Out of all the optical mice you listed only the MS one probably had much less prediction. *It's a preference thing, it's not a given that a mouse with less prediction is better, it's just different*.


Exactly my friend, recent experience proved that to myself! You should see my face when I plugged my diamondback in and started drawing straight lines in mspaint. I was "shocked", i believed I won't draw them straight..but I was wrong. This proves what you said, It seems I was used to prediction with the diamondback and I didn't know it back in the days because it was so much better than my previous mouse. Until you notice the difference with another mouse, you may never "feel" what people are talking about. If you ignore its existance, it won't affect your gameplay at all because you're used to it since day 1.

Forums are amazing, so much information...it drives you crazy, you can never choose what to buy









On a sidenote, great forum - great topic guys.


----------



## AquaSurfer

For Internals List Update.

Thermaltake Tt eSPORTS:
*Azurues* - http://www1.oc.com.tw/forums/forumview.asp?id=7&msgid=528 , http://www.coolaler.com/showthread.php?t=254318
*Azurues mini* - http://www.olympc.cn/diy/mouse/2011/0916/69433.html

Qpad:
*OM-75* - http://news.jinti.com/shangpin/1228786.htm

Microsoft Sidewinder X5 Avago ADNS-6A010 <----

_edit: better quality photos of Qpads_ http://tu.pcpop.com/pic-738715-11.htm#show


----------



## theo87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Hey. Do you recall which diamondback you used? Standard or Plasma edition?
> Mouse used like 4 different sensors, although all of them had moderate amounts of "drift control/correction/angle snapping"
> Original version had the Avago 3070/3080 (I think the 3070 had tracking problems)
> Plasma version used the Avago 3088
> The 3G version was the latest which used the Avago 3668
> Deathadder/Abyssus 3.5G come with angle snapping/prediction set low.
> Deathadder has upgradable firmware, while the Abyssus may suffer from jittery tracking as it they all differ from firmware set. (not upgradable)
> I'd lean towards the abyssus based on your preferences and needs.


so you say my DA 3.5G has prediction?


----------



## Emissary of Pain

Hey all ...

I apologize if this has been answered but I was reading through from page 1 and hit page 10 thinking .... I will just ask and get it over with ... lol ...

I am looking at getting the, Razer Lachesis (5600 dpi version) ... ... Which sensor does it use ... cause I have heard bad things about the twin eye 2031 ...

Also ... I have relatively large hands (tip of middle finger to base of hand = approx. 20cm <<7.9">>) ... is this mouse a good option for me as I claw grip ... or is there better mice for the price ...

all information would be greatly appreciated ...


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

i am thinking of replacing my g400 because i can't get used to it. my first option would be razer salmosa (i know about squeaky buttons, but have wd40 in stock). how are perfect control rate and malfunction speed of salmosa compared to g400 (i have the one with 3080 sensor), higher or lower?

i did some measurements of g400 with enotus but i simply don't belive that it's perfect control goes as high as 4.4 m/s...


----------



## sobol

Hi All
Firstly I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this post and the mice forum in general.
I've been playing QuakeWorld for many years and I thought I'm expert when it comes to mice and mouse pads.
It turned out that I knew almost null and I have been only enlightened after reading ocn mouse section.

I'd like to contribute to the community and I have made test of my G500 on various surfaces.
Please not those are not intended to show how fast mouse can be moved before reaching malfunction speed but
only to show tracking in usual gaming condition.

The tests are done on OCed Q6600, 8GB of ram on Windows 7.
Mouse sensor is Avago ADNS-9500.
Logitech Setpoint version is 5.46.10/driver 5.33.14 and mouse firmware verion 58.18 ( all newest at the time of writing this ).

Test on hard pad Icemat I-2 in blue measuring 30cmx25cm:










Test on soft cloth mat - Raptor-Gaming P8 measuring 40cmx30cm( real size is 38cmx27cm):
Normal cloth side:













Teflon covered side, fast one, probably similar to Zowie G-TF Speed mat:












So I only picked good looking samples, there were quite a few that looked terrible. I think they're because of moving mat or falling outside it while trying to perform a quick swipe.
I think the mouse has a problem with repeated ultra quick swipes but I'm not actually sure how to interpret those tightly draw graphs.

Here is link to source files already amplified as mentioned in instruction file and full quality images: http://sobol.org/forum


----------



## sobol

So Today I've received G400 prediction free sample.

I have read on logitech forums one of representative comments.
According to him G400 sensor Avago ADNS-S3095 has two native dpi resolutions 800 and 3600, the rest is interpolated.

I've tested both and it seems that 3600 dpi is no good on any surfaces. As soon as 2m/s speed is hit the mouse suffer negative acceleration.
On 800 dpi setting it tracks flawless even with 4m/s, but notice that glass pad produce some minor inconsistencies.


----------



## Amstrad

G400 Avago ADNS-A3080E/S3095?

Shouldn't G400 have ADNS-3090? The first G400s was with prediction(S3095?) and the new ones is without prediction (So it is ADNS-3090?).

And are you sure about ZOWIE EC sensor? Beacouse they have all prediction... I mean they arent then ADNS-3060?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Amstrad*
> 
> G400 Avago ADNS-A3080E/S3095?
> Shouldn't G400 have ADNS-3090? The first G400s was with prediction(S3095?) and the new ones is without prediction (So it is ADNS-3090?).
> And are you sure about ZOWIE EC sensor? Beacouse they have all prediction... I mean they arent then ADNS-3060?


Technically the hardware or sensor IC's are pretty similar.

Yes, the G400's are coded as A3080E or S3095. The ones that say "A3080E" are likely left overs from the 518 v2 flashed with the "S3095" 800/3600 CPI firmware exclusive to logitech.

"3090" is the "open source" sensor branding typically running 1800/3500 CPI. Firmware could be purchased with or without prediction.

And yes, I'm sure Zowie EC series are equipped with 3060's. They run a 3080 firmware and utilize a higher than "normal" lens magnification allowing the sensor to scale as high as 2000 CPI. They have angle snapping or "prediction" enabled as the firmware can't be purchased with it off.

@sobol, nice graphs


----------



## d34thly

I don't think the Zowie EC1/EC2 have prediction and both use an Avago ADNS 3060 sensor plus you can get either size in white, black or blue. The only thing bad is that the

clicks wear out after about 8 months ( I have had two and Zowie won't even replace them when they die within the purchase year). I just ordered a logitech g300 to try

fingertipping on a sensor not many have used with prediction. I have went through about 40 mice since 2006 and I just want one that lasts and doesn't suck (plus I have had

issues with every laser sensor on every mouse I have bought from SS, Razer, Logitech, Roccat, Mionix, Coolermaster and OCZ.I am a high sensitivity gamer with very small

hands and seeking the perfect mouse, any suggestions?


----------



## end0rphine

Zowie EC1/EC2 actually do have prediction. Pretty big prediction at that.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *d34thly*
> 
> I don't think the Zowie EC1/EC2 have prediction and both use an Avago ADNS 3060 sensor plus you can get either size in white, black or blue. The only thing bad is that the
> 
> clicks wear out after about 8 months ( I have had two and Zowie won't even replace them when they die within the purchase year). I just ordered a logitech g300 to try
> fingertipping on a sensor not many have used with prediction. I have went through about 40 mice since 2006 and I just want one that lasts and doesn't suck (plus I have had
> issues with every laser sensor on every mouse I have bought from SS, Razer, Logitech, Roccat, Mionix, Coolermaster and OCZ.I am a high sensitivity gamer with very small
> hands and seeking the perfect mouse, any suggestions?


The firmware for the specific sensor is only available with angle snapping (prediction) on.

I could recommend mice, but my opinions are generally bias towards components, quality, and price. What do you want in a mouse exactly?


----------



## Amstrad

Hmm...

So you mean ALL G400 are truly ADNS-3080E? They are just named "S3095" except "MX518v2 leftovers" where is still "ADNS-3080E" labeled in sensor?

So there is incorrect information in http://www.f-paper.com/?i715960_8# ?

_"G400 Logitech mouse using the optical engine is also from Avago hand, model S3095, A3090 chip is special for the version of Logitech, the Logitech has been the core of Avago and partnership, mouse Logitech G400 sampling rate compared to the classic version of the DeathAdder Black to be slightly higher for 3600DPI. other parameters the same. "_


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Amstrad*
> 
> Hmm...
> So you mean ALL G400 are truly ADNS-3080E? They are just named "S3095" except "MX518v2 leftovers" where is still "ADNS-3080E" labeled in sensor?
> So there is incorrect information in http://www.f-paper.com/?i715960_8# ?
> _"G400 Logitech mouse using the optical engine is also from Avago hand, model S3095, A3090 chip is special for the version of Logitech, the Logitech has been the core of Avago and partnership, mouse Logitech G400 sampling rate compared to the classic version of the DeathAdder Black to be slightly higher for 3600DPI. other parameters the same. "_


I'm saying it's same high performance 20 pin optical architecture found in multiple mice. It's a different sensor if you look at it from a firmware perpective, but I guess logitech wanted to get rid of the "left overs" as the 3080E is an 1800 CPI sensor.


----------



## Amstrad

Okay but the newer ones with S3095 are based on ADNS-3090?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Amstrad*
> 
> Okay but the newer ones with S3095 are based on ADNS-3090?


I personally believe the hardware is the same.


----------



## d34thly

I could get used to prediction, but I cannot use a mouse with sporadic behavior or +/- acceleration issues. I have very small hands but I hate palming mice, I'm more of a fingertip/claw hybrid.. It lists the G300 as using an ADNS-3055 sensor (my fav is a ADNS-3060) and it looks to be on the smaller side (guess I'll find out on Friday the 27th Jan. when I get it) So far my favorite mice in order have been: Zowie EC2 (not the best build quality, but the best sensor and overall feel). Second favorite is the CoolerMaster storm Spawn mouse ( it is REALLY small and light, so much so that it throws off aim anytime you use the mousewheel button, thumb buttons or double/triple tap the left click). Third is the Razer DeathAdder, the original 3G ( a tad too big for my small hand + Razer has gone way down the pooper in QA and build quality so new DA will prolly last only a year if that). I love a couple extra buttons on a mouse but with small hands most side buttons are both too far forward and rest up to high to cater to my grip style, making them useless (i usually only make use of the rearmost button on any mouse). I am looking forward to CoolerMasters Recon mouse, but seeing they barely showed it at CES just past, it prolly won't be out for a year or two (when I saw their Spawn mouse at Computex 2009 I had to wait until Oct-2011 for actual e-tail availability). That's my $0.02. I am still looking for a close to perfect mouse for SMALL hands so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I just ordered a g300 followed by a Zowie mico and a Zowie AM so look forward to multiple reviews in February!


----------



## d34thly

I'll tell you by Monday Jan 30 what is the best between a G300, Spawn, EC2 and DA. I get my G300 on Friday the 27 (I have owned every G series mouse now except the g300 and g3 and have hated all of them), I am biased though as I have small hands. I can tell you offhand right now that EC2 has the best sensor and best overall feel, but the mouse didn't last a year before the buttons start double and multi-clicking on their own ( Zowie replaced it). The Spawn has the best build quality of any mouse and feels great, but a combination of a hard press scroll wheel and odd/small thumb buttons will throw your aim off when using them it's also hard to feather spray with this mouse as it is so light. The DeathAdder is a good all rounder, but unfortunately has Razer build quality (malfunctioning within 2 years) and it's a tad on the big side for my small hands. On the plus side, my freakishly small hands make my wedding tackle look huge!







I am still looking for a close to perfect mouse for SMALL hands so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I just ordered a g300 followed by a Zowie mico and a Zowie AM so look forward to multiple reviews in February!


----------



## d34thly

The EC2 may have prediction,but I can feel it less than in any other mouse with prediction I've ever tried. It is still the best mouse I've ever used yet.


----------



## Emissary of Pain

Hey all ...

I hope someone can give me some advice ...

I am looking to replace my current mouse as it is dying on me ... the options I have access to are listed below in price order (low to high)

Sidewinder x8
CM Sentinel Advance
Steelseries Diablo 3

I have large hands and a claw grip style ... please help !!

Kind Regards


----------



## hza

Difference between Ikaria Optical and G400v2? I mean, which one got "better" tracking and which one less prediction?


----------



## LuciferRising

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Difference between Ikaria Optical and G400v2? I mean, which one got "better" tracking and which one less prediction?


hey buddy









G400v2 is the only flawless sensor (maybe along with DA3.5)







well, only the 2cd LoD can be considered as a flaw. But apart from it, it is the best mouse for you if you get used to the shape as it is not ambidextrous.

but, lets hear other opinions









All in all, G400v2 best tracking(?) and NO prediction whatsoever


----------



## Skylit

Nothing is truly "flawless". People have different preferences or needs.


----------



## LuciferRising

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Nothing is truly "flawless". People have different preferences or needs.


I was referring to the sensor? What, people need accel and prediction? so be it


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LuciferRising*
> 
> I was referring to the sensor? What, people need accel and prediction? so be it


I could say the tracking quality of the G400 is rather poor compared to the Deathadder @ 1800-3600CPI and it could be taken as a true statement since Logitech's Lens and LED combination isn't the most optimal solution for the sensor.

I could say the G400 is flawed above 800 CPI since it don't perform as well as it does at or under that native value. Speed and tracking wise.

I could say the Deathadder is flawed because A9500 mice have better cursor precision at high CPI due to higher spec hardware.

I could say the optimal lift off distance of 3060-3090 sensor are flawed since it isn't as low as other mice of different architectures or tracking methods.

In the end, flawless should be what works best for you. There will always be something wrong even with the most popular optical mice deemed into the "flawless" category.


----------



## LuciferRising

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I could say the tracking quality of the G400 is rather poor compared to the Deathadder @ 1800-3600CPI and it could be taken as a true statement since Logitech's Lens and LED combination isn't the most optimal solution for the sensor.
> I could say the G400 is flawed above 800 CPI since it don't perform as well as it does at or under that native value. Speed and tracking wise.
> I could say the Deathadder is flawed because A9500 mice have better cursor precision at high CPI due to higher spec hardware.
> I could say the optimal lift off distance of 3060-3090 sensor are flawed since it isn't as low as other mice of different architectures or tracking methods.
> In the end, flawless should be what works best for you. There will always be something wrong even with the most popular optical mice deemed into the "flawless" category.


So there is not a flawless sensor then?

*I could say the tracking quality of the G400 is rather poor compared to the Deathadder @ 1800-3600CPI and it could be taken as a true statement since Logitech's Lens and LED combination isn't the most optimal solution for the sensor.*

Deathadder > G400 at tracking?

*
I could say the G400 is flawed above 800 CPI since it don't perform as well as it does at or under that native value. Speed and tracking wise.*

okay, so lets put it this way. Is there any better tracking mouse then g400v2 at 400DPI (and more speed wize) ?


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LuciferRising*
> 
> okay, so lets put it this way. Is there any better tracking mouse then g400v2 at 400DPI (and more speed wize) ?


No, there isn't.


----------



## LuciferRising

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> No, there isn't.


Is there any flaw at all on G400v2 (at 400DPI) apart from the 2cd LoD?


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> No, there isn't.


Yes, there is.

G400v2 at 800CPI (not "losing" counts due to native setting).

The point Skylit was making is that those sensors are awesome when used on certain settings, since the rest is quite good/average at best.

So trying to say that one sensor is "flawless" while it has very obvious flaws by just changing settings, is not allright.

G400v2, for example, has very low max speed on 3600CPI, and some other people experienced other problems there. Besides, 1600 and 400 CPI are non-native. So that leaves 800CPI as the only native, good setting.

Having one setting that works awesome shouldn't make the sensor flawless, as it isn't


----------



## Glymbol

2 m/s on 1800 and 3600 CPI is very low? Who would need more at such high CPI?

Please show some evidence that 400 halved-native CPI is worse than 800 native CPI.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> 2 m/s on 1800 and 3600 CPI is very low? Who would need more at such high CPI?
> Please show some evidence that 400 halved-native CPI is worse than 800 native CPI.


Anyone who has been told that rising their CPI and lowering their in-game sense and is a low sensitivity player can hit upwards of 2m/s very easy with that CPI.

I can make the AM skip if I sweep too fast, and it's rated at over 3m/s.

About the G400 evidence, you can't find evidence on that outside of Logitech, you know it, and thus it's not a valid request. And they're not going to come and say they have worse performance on a setting ;x


----------



## Glymbol

I'm sure halved 800 CPI isn't worse than actual 800 CPI, tracking and speed are the same.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> Anyone who has been told that rising their CPI and lowering their in-game sense and is a low sensitivity player can hit upwards of 2m/s very easy with that CPI.


There's always a possibility of screwing your settings on purpose.


----------



## LuciferRising

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LuciferRising*
> 
> Is there any flaw at all on G400v2 (at 400DPI) apart from the 2cd LoD?


----------



## Glymbol

It isn't native.


----------



## SirCumference

Just out of curiosity, does the Philips Twin Eye PLN 2032 have a native DPI setting?


----------



## Domino

could sky update his list to include a prediction/acceleration in the charts? would be nice to know which sensors are actually good or not.


----------



## Skylit

Just ask me what you want to know.

What exactly did you mean by acceleration?

PS: Angle snapping (prediction) doesn't depict how "good" a sensor is. tis a firmware enabled feature and falls into preference.


----------



## outerspace

*Skylit*, all presented in the sheet a4tech gaming mice have mechanical wheel encoder and HUANO microswitches on main buttons.


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Just ask me what you want to know.
> 
> What exactly did you mean by acceleration?
> 
> PS: Angle snapping (prediction) doesn't depict how "good" a sensor is. tis a firmware enabled feature and falls into preference.


For example, some logitech mice have noticeable acceleration when it is disabled.

I'm looking for a sensor that tracks 1:1 like the razer diamondback but has a different shape.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace*
> 
> *Skylit*, all presented in the sheet a4tech gaming mice have mechanical wheel encoder and HUANO microswitches on main buttons.


i'm pretty sure x-710's and x-718's have omron's (unless they started to change stuff inside at the latest batches). i'm 100% ceratain x-747, x-748 and x-760 have huano's (dissassembled them myself)


----------



## Glymbol

Latest A4Tech X7 mice uses Huano, but they used Omrons in the past.

Another thing is they moved from A3060 / 3080 to "V-Track" with some Pixart sensor. Unfortunately mice model symbols remains the same...


----------



## Crack

Hello
I'm going to buy new mouse soon. Which one would you recommend ? I mostly play a lot of fps so any kind of acceleration won't make me happy. From what I read g400 seems to be nice but someone said it has high lift of distance. I have a4tech x748k and LoD is just huge... can't play on it. SS Xai LoD seems to be perfect (~1mm). Other words, whats best mouse without accel and low lift off distance, if that mouse even exist







Thank you.


----------



## outerspace

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *obi.van.kenobi*
> 
> i'm pretty sure x-710's and x-718's have omron's (unless they started to change stuff inside at the latest batches). i'm 100% ceratain x-747, x-748 and x-760 have huano's (dissassembled them myself)


They all use HUANO now. I have new X-710BK and X-718BK with HUANO microswitches. And I also have x-748 broken by myself for spare parts. It's also have HUANO.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace*
> 
> They all use HUANO now. I have new X-710BK and X-718BK with HUANO microswitches. And I also have x-748 broken by myself for spare parts. It's also have HUANO.


i find that somewhat depressing, since i just ordered a new x-710bk from a new batch.


----------



## SirCumference

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SirCumference*
> 
> Just out of curiosity, does the Philips Twin Eye PLN 2032 have a native DPI setting?


Anyone know the answer to this?


----------



## Skylit

Not off the top of my head. Datasheet isn't public.


----------



## SirCumference

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Not off the top of my head. Datasheet isn't public.


Thanks for the reply. Too bad they don't release that info


----------



## avinin1

Seems to reach 4M/s max for me

Tested on Deskpad XL


----------



## AquaSurfer

*avinin1* your plot shows that logged speed is around 1.5m/s with some error spikes.


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AquaSurfer*
> 
> *avinin1* your plot shows that logged speed is around 1.5m/s with some error spikes.


huh? so what is that line that go into the 4k ?


----------



## Glymbol

An error spike







. Probably two cumulated updates after no update.


----------



## avinin1

Did another try but with the IME3.0










Any better? (graph wise)


----------



## nlmiller0015

Besides the z tracking issue on imerator does it has positive accelration


----------



## fellcbr1

which sensor is better, Avago ADNS-A3080 or Avago ADNS-A6010? i'm looking to buy a cheap a4tech for my brother


----------



## Crack

Is there any point in changing from SS Xai to Logitech G400 ? Difference will be noticeable?


----------



## hza

If you don't have any issues or "wrong feelings", I'd say no, not really.


----------



## outerspace

Guys can you tell me about SS Kinzu prediction level (out of the box without installing software) compared to logitech G1?


----------



## outerspace

*Skylit*, can you help me with my question? Just your subjective impressions about kinzu vs. G1 prediction.


----------



## Skylit

Not exactly sure myself.

Kinzu without firmware update was a fair bit lower than with, but the G1's angle snapping is "there" as well.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fellcbr1*
> 
> which sensor is better, Avago ADNS-A3080 or Avago ADNS-A6010? i'm looking to buy a cheap a4tech for my brother


6010 from a _technical_ stand point.

VCSEL and LED are a bit different when it comes to reading surfaces. Firmware is also a major player, but it mainly depends what you need.

- Aiming for max IPS? Go for the optical variant.


----------



## wongt4

Whats a good mousepad for the razer abyssus (better if its on the cheaper side). I'm hoping for $10 or below, or can I just keep this cheap cloth mousepad?


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wongt4*
> 
> Whats a good mousepad for the razer abyssus (better if its on the cheaper side). I'm hoping for $10 or below, or can I just keep this cheap cloth mousepad?


For best tracking you'll need a hardpad, of which I'm going to suggest the ones that worked best with my Abyssus ; SteelSeries 4HD/9HD or Zowie Swift - try to find them cheap and enjoy :
Abyssus on Zowie Swift :
Resolution: 400 dpi \bad\
Polling speed: 999 Hz
Max speed: 4.83 m/s (76089 points/s) \excellent\
Precision: 99.1 % (0.57 m/s) \excellent\

Abyssus on Steelseries SX
Resolution: 400 dpi \bad\
Polling speed: 991 Hz
Max speed: 4.39 m/s (69107 points/s) \excellent\
Precision: 99.8 % (1.04 m/s) \excellent\

Abyssus Destructor
Resolution: 400 dpi \bad\
Polling speed: 992 Hz
Max speed: 4.93 m/s (77713 points/s) \excellent\
Precision: 99.8 % (0.65 m/s) \excellent\

Abyssus SteelSeries 9HD
Resolution: 400 dpi \bad\
Polling speed: 994 Hz
Max speed: 5.31 m/s (83687 points/s) \excellent\
Precision: 99.7 % (0.70 m/s) \excellent\

And for reference, a cloth pad where it can ripple a bit :

Abyssus Goliathus
Resolution: 400 dpi \bad\
Polling speed: 992 Hz
Max speed: 5.49 m/s (86455 points/s) \excellent\
Precision: 99.8 % (0.95 m/s) \excellent\

EDIT : Abyssus has been one of the few optical mice to not to skip at very low speeds on the SX.


----------



## Glymbol

I wouldn't trust Enotus with speed over 4 m/s.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> I wouldn't trust Enotus with speed over 4 m/s.


I don't, but it works as a reference as to what other people might be able to achieve on the same program.


----------



## Ramla777

Right now Enotus is the standard because it's easy to use and newb friendly. Though other programs and methods are more accurate, it can give people a pretty good idea of what to expect.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ramla777*
> 
> Right now Enotus is the standard because it's easy to use and newb friendly. Though other programs and methods are more accurate, it can give people a pretty good idea of what to expect.


Exactly my point, ty


----------



## Glymbol

Enotus is rounding CPI in 200 steps. This results in about 12% error when testing max speed of a mouse on 450 or 900 CPI. Not to mention Enotus doesn't recognize obvious errors.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wongt4*
> 
> Whats a good mousepad for the razer abyssus (better if its on the cheaper side). I'm hoping for $10 or below, or can I just keep this cheap cloth mousepad?


My Abyssus works fine on the QCK+, which is cheap and cloth. No tracking errors, no skipping.


----------



## fellcbr1

my friend is looking for a big mouse, bigger than his Microsoft 1.1 (his height is 1,96m so you can imagine the size of his hand...) and i have no clue what mouse to recommend him..


----------



## tehspirit

ok, so you say sensor in g400v2 has native 800dpi that means if I use 400dpi it actually reads in 800dpi and divide accuracy by 2? does this slow down mouse? or? ... tell me please why if i use g400 on 400dpi is worse than if i use g400 on 800dpi


----------



## Amstrad

I would also like to know that which DPI G400 tracks the best? Is the difference big between 400 and 800 DPI. Playing CS1.6.

Does somebody also know that which DPI ZOWIE AM tracks best?


----------



## Glymbol

There's no difference between 800 and 400 CPI. Anything above 800 CPI is interpolated from 3600 and isn't as good. There is moderate amount of ripple / jitter at 3600 CPI. Maximum speed is lower too but still pretty high ~2m/s, considering CPI values it's more than needed.


----------



## majkool

Can I use other program than Audition to test it?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *majkool*
> 
> Can I use other program than Audition to test it?


I'd like to know this too, is there a freeware tool that can do the same? Audition is ******* expensive... ^^


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Amstrad*
> 
> Does somebody also know that which DPI ZOWIE AM tracks best?


2300dpi, although on some mousepads it can jitter a bit.


----------



## s74r1

Logitech G700 has Omron D2FC-F-7N(10M) not D2FC-F-7N, so might want to update the OP graph.

I recently replaced with D2F-01F because I thought they were made in japan and were higher quality, but it appears all of the omron are manufactured in china. and the 01F's are only 1million rating. the clicks definitely feel more defined and possibly a little easier to depress but I'm not sure. I may switch back to the D2FC-F-7N(10M)'s


----------



## Skylit

Hmm, Thought I had those listed as 10m. (Same switch with a higher factory rating)

Few of them are wrong.


----------



## s74r1

are you sure the Logitech G500 uses D2FC-F-7N(10m)? I can't seem to find anything on google saying it uses the (10m) but people may just omit that. there's TONS of posts on logitech's forums about double click issues with the G500 and barely any about the G700. but maybe more people buy the G500's so there's more issues posted.

personally I felt the G500 felt much cheaper in construction compared to the G700, in fact a lot of them shipped from the factory with loose laser lenses (mine was one of them). that and the plastic just feels cheap and the paint wears off fast.

anyways, I'm still unsure about the D2F-01F's i replaced my G700 with, the koreans seem to prefer this switch for some reason. thought it would reduce my finger pain in Diablo III, although steelseries' own D3 mouse use the (10m)'s but probably for durability reasons. anyone have opinions on D2FC-F-7N(10m) compared to D2F-01F? I've looking for a lighter click for less pain, but I think the G700's higher "slope" in the middle is part of the cause of my pain. I've been through over $700 in 9+ button gaming mice over the past 2 years and starting to get fed up with each one having quirks or design flaws...


----------



## Skylit

Yep. the 10m switch rating was exclusive to Logitech for the longest time (G5 even had it)

Just never update(d) the list.


----------



## karod

Hi forum,

why don't I get 1000hz on my deathadder?

Enotus Mouse Test v0.1.4
Mouse: @msmouse.inf,%hid.mousedevice%;HID-konforme Maus
Model: Razer Deathadder 3500
Resolution: 1800 dpi \excellent\
Polling speed: 897 Hz
Max speed: 0.24 m/s (17182 points/s) \bad\
Precision: 100.0 % (0.04 m/s) \excellent\
Smoothness: 32.6 % \bad\
Debug data: [('30', '0.99'), ('18', '1.00'), ('15', '1.00'), ('16', '1.00'), ('16', '2.00'), ('32', '1.00'), ('15', '1.00'), ('17', '1.01'), ('15', '0.99'), ('17', '1.00')]


----------



## IloveKuchen

I cant tell you, it may be that your using some hub usb port. Anyway, DA as any other mouse performs better on 500hz.


----------



## karod

Thank you, I didn't know that.

I have it plugged in directly to the mainboard without hub.
I redid the test with 500hz.

And I mostly get 1600 dpi sometimes I get the 1800dpi.

Enotus Mouse Test v0.1.4
Mouse: @msmouse.inf,%hid.mousedevice%;HID-konforme Maus
Model: Razer Deathadder 3500
Resolution: 1600 dpi \good\
Polling speed: 486 Hz
Max speed: 0.54 m/s (33934 points/s) \ok\
Precision: 99.5 % (0.10 m/s) \excellent\
Smoothness: 19.0 % \bad\
Debug data: [('67', '1.96'), ('62', '2.01'), ('80', '1.99'), ('68', '1.99'), ('63', '2.09'), ('64', '1.92'), ('67', '1.99'), ('63', '2.02'), ('78', '1.99'), ('66', '1.99')]

Can you comment on the Smoothness factor?
What does it express?


----------



## IloveKuchen

I never get the smoothness high with any mouse, i guess its depending on the user.
For the dpi, its always what u set in the drivers (or with no drivers 1800) so move your mouse till you have it say 1800.
The most important thing with the dpi is to mesure the speed right.
You max speed with 0,5m/s is quiet low, probably there is a real problem with your mouse.
Polling speed shows only 486mhz which is really too low(but that could be just a measuring error) and the max speed is a LOT to low, but PROBABLY you are simply moving your move too slow so try to find a surface with a lot of space and really sweep it FAST, as fast as you can. If its still that low you should consider calling the support after you tried out on another pc(that shows you if its something with your pc or the mouse),


----------



## karod

I removed my razer destructor from my desk, then had about 60cm to move vertically.
I could get up to 2,51 m/s

Is that ok now?
I'm just not used to move that fast as highsense player


----------



## Kragarmendes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'd like to know this too, is there a freeware tool that can do the same? Audition is ******* expensive... ^^


You can use any software that can read data points from text files (use the log file).
There is proper analytical software like Octave but you could probably even use Excel or LibreOffice.

http://www.ncsu.edu/labwrite/res/gt/graphtut-home.html


----------



## spider22

We need to bring back important info such as the accel, prediction, LOD and max speed/perfect control.

About the standardization of the list so that the new list would have objective info. Skylit, If you want to have complete QA control over the benchmarks score then you decide if you should use enotus or outterspace and with mousepad to use.

If you want people to be able to contribute to the list then I suggest using a tool that is universally usable and generally foolproof. For that I suppose enotus fits the bill. While outterspace have more accuraccy and info, it is harder to use and I can see various potential where a reviewer could misread results due to incorrect methodologies.

As for a standard mousepad. I suggest using universally available popular mousepad that isn't exotically priced or hard to source. And of course the mousepad shouldn't have known issues with tracking. Also I suggest using both a soft pad and a hardpad. Maybe options like QCK heavy and the 9HD or Destructor. Zowie, Puretrack is harder to find in many parts of the world. whereas established brands like steelseries and razer are easier to find.

The purpose is to standardize the results and to allow as many people to contribute without bias.

What do you guys think?


----------



## Thunderbringer

all points sound only reasonable to me!


----------



## Dunan

Hey first post, found this thread, it's exactly what I've been looking for.

I'm looking for a mouse with a really accurate sensor - as good as the Ikari laser or better. I have owned quite a few mice and the Ikari is the most accurate I've come across.
I have the Logitech 510, 518, G700, G9x, razer lachesis, mamba, death adder and the Ikari laser.

The closest that comes to the Ikari that I have is the DA. I would get another Ikari but the build quality is seriously sub par and sucks to say the least and ive gone thru 2 of them and dont want to get another so I was looking at the kinzu or kana because from the awesome chart on the front page those mice seem to have some good sensors. I was trying to get a hold of the nova slider x600 because they basically use the same sensor as the ikari laser but they aren't available anywhere.

Sooo, what would be the best most accurate sensor on a mouse that would be available? I was looking for the steelseries xai but that one is unavailable also.


----------



## Ino.

Deathadder and G400 have the best, most accurate sensors at the moment imo.


----------



## Ino.

Does anyone here have infos about the Mionix Saiph 3200? Couldn't find any valuable information about max tracking speed, skipping, jitter etc.


----------



## Skylit

Heya. It's been long overdue and I figured I should update this thread with more indeph information about the sensors listed on the first page.

I'll be updating this over the course of today and tomorrow. For specific questions please PM me.

@ above. I believe the max tracking speed is pretty low. Maybe around 60 IPS, though I'm not sure. Those ONS sensors were never adapted into the market well.


----------



## Dunan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Heya. It's been long overdue and I figured I should update this thread with more indeph information about the sensors listed on the first page.
> I'll be updating this over the course of today and tomorrow. For specific questions please PM me.
> @ above. I believe the max tracking speed is pretty low. Maybe around 60 IPS, though I'm not sure. Those ONS sensors were never adapted into the market well.


If you were referring to my post, then that sucks because it seems to be a very good laser sensor, the most accurate one I've come across to date. Too bad the build quality on the Ikari is just plain bad.


----------



## hza

He was refering to Ino.


----------



## karod

I just read the edited first post. The Info about the sensor is really good.

Will you write something about the Logitech MX1000 sensor? I owned that mouse, once. It was marketed as the first laser mouse.

Which sensor was that?

Gesendet von meinem HTC One X


----------



## wo1fwood

How the heck did I miss this thread before now? Great information here, will be interested to see what else is fleshed out in the near future!


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dunan*
> 
> If you were referring to my post, then that sucks because it seems to be a very good laser sensor, the most accurate one I've come across to date. Too bad the build quality on the Ikari is just plain bad.


Was referring to above. or Ino's post. How much DPI do you require? How much IPS?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karod*
> 
> I just read the edited first post. The Info about the sensor is really good.
> Will you write something about the Logitech MX1000 sensor? I owned that mouse, once. It was marketed as the first laser mouse.
> Which sensor was that?
> Gesendet von meinem HTC One X


S6020
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wo1fwood*
> 
> How the heck did I miss this thread before now? Great information here, will be interested to see what else is fleshed out in the near future!


I started this morning. This is the new "reference sheet". Doing it while I have the time. Classes in the fall.


----------



## Dunan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Was referring to above. or Ino's post. How much DPI do you require? How much IPS?.


I've never used more than 1400 on the desktop and use no more than 1100 for gaming, I'd say around 900/450 is about right for gaming, depending on the game.

As far as IPS, I've never measured it that way. I just want a mouse that tracks like the ikari with no prediction/acceleration without fixed DPI that's optical and is built better. Seems impossible to find.


----------



## hza

Roccat Savu could be a possible candidate for you. Afaik it's a high quality mouse with superior tracking and whatnot. Mine is on the way to my place, guess it arrives on Tuesday. Had a lot of the "gaming mice" over the years. Mice like MX518 (had all european variations), DA, Xai, G500 were mice I'd consider as "good/very good" and these are the mice I was using most of the time of my "gaming career". I think Savu will compete with the(se) big boys with ease, but yeah. Gonna check that on Tuesday. Only "issue" I could have with Savu is it's light weight (90 g) as all the others were heavier, so, I'm not sure, if I can get used to its light weight.


----------



## Dunan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Roccat Savu will do all this for you


Can you change the DPI or sensitivity without going into the SW though


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dunan*
> 
> Can you change the DPI or sensitivity without going into the SW though


Errr... sorry, I should have write more than one sentence, so, I've just edited my post above. And to your question. If I'm not mistaken, yes, you can.


----------



## karod

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> S6020


So does it belong in this category? "Agilent/Avago DIP-20 High Performance Laserstream™ GamingSensor" where you list the ADNS S6018 ?


----------



## Dunan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Errr... sorry, I should have write more than one sentence, so, I've just edited my post above. And to your question. If I'm not mistaken, yes, you can.


If so, I'm curious on how it works, if it's a button+scroll wheel command or something. That would be sweet but it doesn't say anything about being able to switch sensitivity on the fly.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dunan*
> 
> If so, I'm curious on how it works, if it's a button+scroll wheel command or something. That would be sweet but it doesn't say anything about being able to switch sensitivity on the fly.


You can map DPI/sensitivity switch to any Easyshift Combination or button you want.


----------



## vukk

Does the Avago 9500 exhibit the tracking 'problem' on hard surfaces as well (e.g. original Icemat)? I've read diametrically opposed answers to that question and I figure that if anyone knows the correct answer, he or she is to be found here.

I'm quite torn between Corsair's mice and playing it 'safe' with a G400.

Thanks!


----------



## MONVMENTVM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vukk*
> 
> Does the Avago 9500 exhibit the tracking 'problem' on hard surfaces as well (e.g. original Icemat)? I've read diametrically opposed answers to that question and I figure that if anyone knows the correct answer, he or she is to be found here.
> I'm quite torn between Corsair's mice and playing it 'safe' with a G400.
> Thanks!


The 9500 has this weird positive acceleration curve on any surface you put it on. In addition to that it may show negative acceleration on some cloth pads.


----------



## LewisASTL

Very great work Skilit!
I'm going to do a similar work and i have collected all information i need by avago and philips website. But i can't find some information so i ask u if i can copy part of your work(avago s series information) for fill my work.
i will regards and link this post in completed work


----------



## Bullveyr




----------



## avinin1

Skylit, as always, one of the most people who cares and help and share infomation. thanks you very much.
As you see, I'm not really active anymore when it comes to posting arouns, but only if I "must" - this thing is the "mustest"








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MONVMENTVM*
> 
> The 9500 has this weird positive acceleration curve on any surface you put it on. In addition to that it may show negative acceleration on some cloth pads.


The newest firmware on the 9500 by avago is no longer present the negative-accelration 'bug', Also, it true for some of the older firmware on 9500 based. My Xai never had any negative accel on cloth, but I used some Xai's and G500's which "felt very bad" on cloth, altrough I was minded-****ed by the positive accelration in both cases.
Also, the newest firmware for 9500 have less positive accel which you can easily test ingame if you got two of each example to compare.

But now days? I no loger cares. Just give me a good shape that fits my hand with a quality metrials on it, good tracking quality and low LoD.


----------



## Ino.

Thanks for the info Skylit!

Also awesome work with the updated OP. I love it!


----------



## LewisASTL

Razer precision 4G dual sensor show two different DPI sensivity. It's possible that the 6400DPI model(imperator 2012) use a philips pln2033 and the 8200dpi model is based on avago 9800?


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LewisASTL*
> 
> Razer precision 4G dual sensor show two different DPI sensivity. It's possible that the 6400DPI model(imperator 2012) use a philips pln2033 and the 8200dpi model is based on avago 9800?


Yes, it should be that way.


----------



## Ino.

Hey Skylit, is there a way to still access the old spreadsheet with the types of switches used in each mouse? I was wondering which switches are in my new Kana. And also which switches are in the G400.


----------



## karod

This?
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AosJbEwEG9GpdENDZGJCcl9ITzdvSW5mcGJLYVB2YVE&w=100&h=650

Code:



Code:


Steelseries Kana     PixArt PAW3305DK-H      Optical LED     Mechanical      TTC     72g (ex. cable)


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karod*
> 
> This?
> https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AosJbEwEG9GpdENDZGJCcl9ITzdvSW5mcGJLYVB2YVE&w=100&h=650
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Steelseries Kana     PixArt PAW3305DK-H      Optical LED     Mechanical      TTC     72g (ex. cable)


Yes, thank you!


----------



## Derp

This thread just keeps getting better and better. Keep up the good work Skylit







.


----------



## karod

Quote:


> Though it seems that Pixart was able to correct the issue for Steelseries *via* Kana and Kinzu v2 via firmware update.


One word too much


----------



## Skylit

fixed


----------



## ChromeBeauty

In general, has a sensor one native DPI he runs and interpolates the other DPI settings or is that different from sensor to sensor?
I just wonder if these native DPI settings could be mentioned at the starting post, aren't those the ones were the sensor runs best?


----------



## canai_roti

So how can Sensei reach untill 11400 CPI?
Does the ARM processor matter?


----------



## ChromeBeauty

What is the native/best DPI and native/best polling rate for the Deathadder/Deathadder BE?


----------



## Skylit

Dbl.


----------



## Skylit

oops.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LewisASTL*
> 
> Very great work Skilit!
> I'm going to do a similar work and i have collected all information i need by avago and philips website. But i can't find some information so i ask u if i can copy part of your work(avago s series information) for fill my work.
> i will regards and link this post in completed work


PM me.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> In general, has a sensor one native DPI he runs and interpolates the other DPI settings or is that different from sensor to sensor?
> I just wonder if these native DPI settings could be mentioned at the starting post, aren't those the ones were the sensor runs best?


There are native values through out the range.

When it comes to older designs, you see a lot of halving and interpolation for "custom" values. The 9500 and 9800 are configurable in steps of 90 (100 custom rom) or 200.

The G400 for example recalculates all values that are not 800 or 3600. 400 and 1800 steps are halved.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canai_roti*
> 
> So how can Sensei reach untill 11400 CPI?
> Does the ARM processor matter?


Interpolation of the native 5670 range.

No it does not. A lot of mice have ARM micro controllers. That's simply marketing on steelseries part.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> What is the native/best DPI and native/best polling rate for the Deathadder/Deathadder BE?


1800/3500 DPI native. 500hz is most "stable", but I don't mind using 125 or 1000hz.

900 and 450 are halved from 1800 and provide nice tracing as well.


----------



## canai_roti

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> No it does not. A lot of mice have ARM micro controllers. That's simply marketing on steelseries part.


So do you mean if I switch the cpi to 11400, its not the true "11400 CPI"?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canai_roti*
> 
> So do you mean if I switch the cpi to 11400, its not the true "11400 CPI"?


It's basically the same as running any 5700 dpi mouse with 8/11 (2) windows sensitivity. The interpolation is done on micro controller level and quite frankly, you don't need a "ARM processor" to do this.


----------



## ChromeBeauty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> 1800/3500 DPI native. 500hz is most "stable", but I don't mind using 125 or 1000hz.
> 900 and 450 are halved from 1800 and provide nice tracing as well.


Do you mean stable regarding the system stability or regarding the mouse input?


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Do you mean stable regarding the system stability or regarding the mouse input?


Meaning it doesn't make big jumps, but stays within aprox -+50 Hz

Some mice can't get stable readings at some frequencies, and the polling rate might show huge jumps, up to 500Hz difference.


----------



## ChromeBeauty

Interesting, how can I check that out?


----------



## wo1fwood

LOL, I only _just_ realized today why I never found this thread before....(wow, where was my brain for the last week or so XD).


----------



## qqqq

so i know the avago 6010 (g5 etc) is usually discarded from mouse discussions for it's negative acceleration during faster movements. but since it shouldn't have positive acceleration like 9500 and it doesn't have precition, i was wondering how does it compare to MLT 04 in ime/wmo/imo. the reason is these mice are always recommended is the absence of prediction/acceleration which is the issue with most new gaming' mice, but after all they too suffer from negative acceleration in rather low speeds.

is avago 6010 even worse in this matter? (because if the malfunction speed was about the same, there's no reason not to recommend it as well)


----------



## dmxdex2020

I just got the kone v2 6090 avago. I also got a razer goliathus mouse pad.

Will it track ok? I use my wrist so i wont reach high speeds.

I just want to know if the mouse will perform fine on cloth?


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qqqq*
> 
> is avago 6010 even worse in this matter?


It is. WMO is slow at high speeds and cursor stops when you move it too fast. A6010 is skipping at high speeds, cursor jumps so in game you'll often end aiming at your foot or in the sky when moving mouse too fast. Another thing is this sensor is terrible at cloth pads (jitter, skipping).


----------



## Skylit

I don't think its so much the sensor but rather illumination.


----------



## Phos

The RAT 3 really uses a 3090? This seems uncharacteristically well chosen on Mad Catz's part.


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> The RAT 3 really uses a 3090? This seems uncharacteristically well chosen on Mad Catz's part.


First verison had a laser sensor, but i guess the manufacturer and probably also this board convinced them to change later to 3090.
P.S.: They never updated it to the 4000 cpi SROM, wonder if thats on purpose or technical limitation. Maybe they just dont bother.


----------



## Phos

Interesting, how is it overall?


----------



## nlmiller0015

Skylit do you know the native dpi for the am/evo


----------



## Skylit

Should be 1800 registry. (2300 DPI)


----------



## nlmiller0015

thanks


----------



## Yahar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Should be 1800 registry. (2300 DPI)


no 450/1150?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> no 450/1150?


MCU calculation off the native step.


----------



## rezolve

I hadn't realised they released an optical version of the RAT 3, I've always had a thing for the shape - I'm a bit fed up of my deathadder and I'd really love an optical mouse with buttons for switching the DPI (Can't get on with the G400 Shape)

Bearing in mind that I use a very low sens (40cm/ 180, so 80cm/ 360) would the optical RAT 3 do the job performance-wise?

If anyone has any experience with both mice would really appreciate your input.

Cheers


----------



## Phos

I have an optical RAT 3 arriving tomorrow, I'll see what I can figure out. I also play with a fairly low sensativity, maybe not as low as yours, about 3/4 of a regular QcK per 360.


----------



## hza

You could consider a Roccat Savu as well. I was on 9500 mice (xai, g500) before and find the Savu very good in terms of tracking, ergonomics, build quality, yeah, even weight and whatnot.


----------



## rezolve

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> You could consider a Roccat Savu as well. I was on 9500 mice (xai, g500) before and find the Savu very good in terms of tracking, ergonomics, build quality, yeah, even weight and whatnot.


Yeah the Savu has been on my list for a while but I'm not convinced on the material they use for the sides, I tried the DA:BE and it kept slipping out of my hand when lifting the mouse - I'm wondering if the Savu would be the same... Really need to get my hands on one first I think!


----------



## Skylit

The Savu uses a very textured sandpaper like material, though whether it works depends on the individuals biochemistry. My hands get sweaty with the specific coating used.

On DA BE, I'm a similar case. I _need to_ sweat just to be able to use the darn thing. I actually prefer gloss plastic over everything (regardless of how dirty it gets), but that's me ^^


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rezolve*
> 
> Yeah the Savu has been on my list for a while but I'm not convinced on the material they use for the sides, I tried the DA:BE and it kept slipping out of my hand when lifting the mouse - I'm wondering if the Savu would be the same... Really need to get my hands on one first I think!


Honestly, first I was sceptic about that as well. Sides are comparable to mice like G5, G500 in terms of grip? Maybe slightly "better"? I prefer this kind of coating a litte bit more than the kind of mice like Xai and whatnot, even though I like Xai a lot, but prefer "right-hand" mice at the end of the day. In comparison to Skylit I hate glossy sides on mice.







However, I can't talk about DABE as I never tried out one.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rezolve*
> 
> I hadn't realised they released an optical version of the RAT 3, I've always had a thing for the shape - I'm a bit fed up of my deathadder and I'd really love an optical mouse with buttons for switching the DPI (Can't get on with the G400 Shape)
> Bearing in mind that I use a very low sens (40cm/ 180, so 80cm/ 360) would the optical RAT 3 do the job performance-wise?
> If anyone has any experience with both mice would really appreciate your input.
> Cheers


OK I got my RAT 3 in... What's the best way for testing for max tracking speed?

BTW: First impressions are nice, though it does have a high lift of distance.


----------



## karod

Which sensor does the Saitek Rat 3 have?
I read 3500 dpi laser sensor everywhere in the webshops. On Saitek Cyborg's webpage it says 3500 dpi laser, too.

tapatalk


----------



## Phos

It's an optical sensor, an Avago 3090.


----------



## karod

Are there different versions then?
It says laser there
http://www.cyborggaming.com/de/prod/rat3.htm

tapatalk


----------



## Phos

It might still be that version in Germany, or it might be a mistranslation. It looks like an optical sensor in the picture, and the laser version were 3200 dpi.


----------



## Skylit

Product page typo. The confusion likely came from the first RAT3 which used a PTE laser.


----------



## karod

Ah ok.
I wrote them via their tech support contact form on the product page. Let's see if I can teach them, that they have the wrong specs there.


----------



## karod

Lol, they replied with bad grammar (using the wrong article) and it seems like it s copied from a marketing page.
Quote:


> Sehr geehrter Herr xxx,
> 
> Vielen Dank für Ihre Kontaktaufnahme mit dem technischen Kundendienst von MadCatz.
> 
> Ihre Fallnummer ist xxx.
> 
> *Der RAT 3 Maus hat 3500 dpi - Laser der Gaming-Güteklasse.*
> 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> 
> xxx yyy
> EU Kundendienst
> Mad Catz Europe Ltd


They still tell me it is laser


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karod*
> 
> Lol, they replied with bad grammar (using the wrong article) and it seems like it s copied from a marketing page.
> They still tell me it is laser


I wouldn't expect much from marketing guys


----------



## karod

Yeah, that's true.

But it says "technical contact form" on their page and not marketing or sales contact. Never mind though.


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karod*
> 
> Yeah, that's true.
> But it says "technical contact form" on their page and not marketing or sales contact. Never mind though.


Well, according to the answer you have got, I dont think its technical-guys who answered


----------



## ChromeBeauty

I guess some guy in Bombay that gets a dollar an hour for simply telling you what is already on the webpage.


----------



## Phos

So it seems as though my Shinden lowers the LoD of my RAT 3 versus the Hayate (seriously, by like half), but this does make me curious how I should go about testing max control speeds?


----------



## raisinbun

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> So it seems as though my Shinden lowers the LoD of my RAT 3 versus the Hayate (seriously, by like half), but this does make me curious how I should go about testing max control speeds?


How about the Outerspace's Max IPS logger method at the bottom of the OP? Detailed instructions given in readme.txt and I'm gonna try it out soon...

edit: I don't have Audition to open the wav; I used Audacity.

My random swipe with Salmosa at 800DPI and 1000Hz:


Can someone interpret it for me?


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raisinbun*
> 
> How about the Outerspace's Max IPS logger method at the bottom of the OP? Detailed instructions given in readme.txt and I'm gonna try it out soon...


Huh, gave it a try, but I don't have Adobe Audition, not sure how numbers would make sense in Audacity. I've seen screenshots about of an easier looking application, is there some trouble with that one? I still haven't noticed any malfunctions on the Shinden in spite of the dropped LoD, looks like these two play well together. Really well, in fact. No tracking while 2 CD's above it, but no problem yet observed with speed.


----------



## raisinbun

One more swipe with Savu at 1600DPI at 1000Hz on Raiden



This combination looks bad? lol

Anyway, how does one check the tracking speed with a graph like this?


----------



## karod

I use a Deathadder 35000 on 1800dpi with sense of 5.5 which results in 990dp according to Skylit and I use 500hz.

I can't amplify it by 25400/(990*2)=12,82 or 1282%
I can only amplify it by up to 48dB in Audition.

This is what I got.


----------



## Kragarmendes

I have explained alternative ways to plot mouse counts several times in this threat.

Search-Link


----------



## BulletSponge

Not sure if this would be considered a hard or soft pad but my G700 tracks perfectly on my CS Hyde C4-NGen04 Super Mousepad.


----------



## avinin1

Just wanted confirmed (not really confirmed, but site who early made that Rat 3 sensor's conclusions










http://www.eteknix.com/news/mad-catz-give-the-rat-3-gaming-mouse-a-new-sensor/


----------



## Phos

Looking at Zalman's web site, I notice they have a Pixart PAN3509DH, anyone know how this sensor is? It's a very cheap mouse, so it might be a good budget choice. I notice they also make a mouse with a Avago 5700, which is impressive considering that that's some variety of ethernet controller.


----------



## Skylit

I can tell you it's very weak and far from "gaming grade".


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> Looking at Zalman's web site, I notice they have a Pixart PAN3509DH, anyone know how this sensor is? It's a very cheap mouse, so it might be a good budget choice. I notice they also make a mouse with a Avago 5700, which is impressive considering that that's some variety of ethernet controller.


They're probably talking about the ADNS-5700


----------



## Skylit

Another weak sensor ^^


----------



## Tator Tot

It's not awful.

Generally on cheap mice, you can get an Intelimouse for less or the same price as mice equipped with that sensor. Which is the real downside.


----------



## Skylit

Unless you manage to find one free/used. Intellimouse have been discontinued since 2011^^ You can grab a low end gaming mouse with a weaker 3050 variant for around 20-30 USD. Will perform better than A5700 at low DPI.

For intro into gaming mice, G400 is a good value (30-40 USD) even if it's not on the same level as competitor products in terms of internal hardware quality.


----------



## Tator Tot

Local (Best Buy, Microcenter, & Walmart) all have Intelimice a plenty right now. All for $22-25 USD.

May be DC'd but not hard to come by, yet.


----------



## Skylit

Consider yourself or location lucky


----------



## Tator Tot

Not enough gamers in the area to snag them all up I guess.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Unless you manage to find one free/used. Intellimouse have been discontinued since 2011^^ You can grab a low end gaming mouse with a weaker 3050 variant for around 20-30 USD. Will perform better than A5700 at low DPI.
> For intro into gaming mice, G400 is a good value (30-40 USD) even if it's not on the same level as competitor products in terms of internal hardware quality.


Why is a g400 only good for intro intro gaming. What mice do you prefer yourself or what mice you think are worhty enough for good gamers.


----------



## Skylit

I meant in a general sense as its priced lower than its competitors.

I value cursor fidelity and advanced attention to LED/hardware quality. I don't feel the G400 is as clean as some mice like the DA or Savu when it comes to precision. (Even at lower DPI's, but I'm nitpicking^^)


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Thanks for the reply Skylit, but you didnt answer my second question









what mouse do you use yourself?

I am guessing its one with all flashy lights XD


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I meant in a general sense as its priced lower than its competitors.
> I value cursor fidelity and advanced attention to LED/hardware quality. I don't feel the G400 is as clean as some mice like the DA or Savu when it comes to precision. (Even at lower DPI's, but I'm nitpicking^^)


Hey Skylit, how's the Savu in terms of perfect control? Any bad stuff like accel?


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I meant in a general sense as its priced lower than its competitors.
> I value cursor fidelity and advanced attention to LED/hardware quality. I don't feel the G400 is as clean as some mice like the DA or Savu when it comes to precision. (Even at lower DPI's, but I'm nitpicking^^)


I've got a somewhat crazy question: I have a G400 and a bare DA (1800DPI) PCB, if I were to put the DA's lens into the G400's PCB, would it work?


----------



## toopz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> I've got a somewhat crazy question: I have a G400 and a bare DA (1800DPI) PCB, if I were to put the DA's lens into the G400's PCB, would it work?


You can use it but mousewheel wont work up and down.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *toopz*
> 
> You can use it but mousewheel wont work up and down.


I don't mean the sensor, just the lens.


----------



## aGeno

wow
what mouse do you use skylit ? which can you recommend for small hands ?


----------



## outerspace

Where is old sheet?


----------



## Skylit

There were multiple sheets.

I deleted the original with IPS speeds. Why? Because as with Sujoys or commonly referred to as "ESR mousescore", it promotes false info as surface subjectivity plays a huge role. They were also tested on one type of surface at *max* resolution. Again, performance will differ on other registries or interpolated settings. Ex. His Mx518 only logged 80 IPS max tracking speed and while that may be true at the interpolated 800 and native 1600 DPI, the mouse was more than capable of more than 160+ IPS @ 400 DPI on the same exact Black QcK. The 2nd gen Mx518 was a bit different as the native steps changed quite a bit. Best performance was now at 800 DPI and the interpolated 400 setting. 1800 DPI performed similarly to the 1600 DPI step of the original.

I believe the only mouse he thoroughly tested with the *original* Deathadder which has gone through multiple changes such as OEMs and firmware.. Yet, people still refer to it regardless.

I do wish there was a way to objectively measure things like cursor fidelity other than drawing some lines in paint, though I suppose were stuck with what we have. :[

2nd one had the same basic info as listed on the first page, minus PTE which DeMS was suppose to cover. (My info on Philips is rather limited)


----------



## Phos

I don't think you would find the same degree of variation with PTE sensors as you would with CMOS sensors, just interference patterns instead of recognising features. Wouldn't it just boil down to an explanation of the Z axis stuff? Would be such a great sensor if it could be felt with.


----------



## outerspace

I just search information about wheel of some mice (optical or mechanical). I think I find it here but I didnt.

And I totally agree with you. I know about things that you talking about.

For complex testing you need something like a milling machine or CNC machine.







If you program it to some measuring trajectory, it is possible to get a very objective and accurate results on jitter, prediction and other things.

Some people said that the Logitech G1 has a high level of prediction. I buy it and compare with mx518 and I didnt find any difference.







So even total subjectivity is presented in this area.


----------



## AquaSurfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outerspace*
> 
> (...)
> For complex testing you need something like a milling machine or CNC machine.(...)


Maybe someone could make something based on open source 3d printer. I imagine it would be much cheaper ;P


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AquaSurfer*
> 
> Maybe someone could make something based on open source 3d printer. I imagine it would be much cheaper ;P


3D Printers move much to slow for mouse testing, also they are so light that fast movements could not be done without serious vibration. Trust me, friends of mine built two of these.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

i've tried to ask this at least two times before, but since i've gotten no answer let me try again.

does the logitech m90 (cheapo have prediction?

i'm getting either m90 or g100 (depending on weather m90 has prediction), but would like to avoid getting them both...


----------



## Phos

Anyone know the details behind Logitech's darkfield malarky?

In other non news, I can't help but be looking into transplanting G400 guts into a G500 shell. Eh, should probably just keep messing about with my full custom DA shell.


----------



## Tator Tot

I'd love to see some good tests of Darkfield, BlueTrack, & Razor's DualSensor tech to see if any of them are good.

Like wise, to see if any is better than what we have already.


----------



## Skylit

Razer dual sensor tech doesn't really utilize 2 sensors in a general sense but rather one for tracking and one for advanced calibration / dedicated lift off detection. Performance is more or less in line with the main sensor used.

Darkfield isn't anything special in terms of speed and tracking quality. It's a basic non gaming oriented Avago spec'd model with a potential custom illumination and lens setup. (If any different from standard spec'd hardware).

I've messed with the latest Bluetrack in the comfort 6000 and 3000 mice. Datapath is larger than 8 bit. Tracking a little over 72 IPS specification on most of my surfaces.

Angle snapping was disabled. Polling can be forced over 125hz, but not with traditional methods such as hidusbf.


----------



## ChaoticKinesis

I'm very interested to hear what mouse you use, Skylit.

Also, I see that most of the better optical mice are said to work well up to their native 1600-1800 DPI, but typically not at their max DPI of around 3600. Is it preferred to use a different sensor for higher DPI in the upper-3000 range? For example, I haven't seen any serious mention of the CM Sentinel Advance II but that looks like it may be a nice option. Particularly, given the price.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Razer dual sensor tech doesn't really utilize 2 sensors in a general sense but rather one for tracking and one for advanced calibration / dedicated lift off detection. Performance is more or less in line with the main sensor used.
> Darkfield isn't anything special in terms of speed and tracking quality. It's a basic non gaming oriented Avago spec'd model with a potential custom illumination and lens setup. (If any different from standard spec'd hardware).
> I've messed with the latest Bluetrack in the comfort 6000 and 3000 mice. Datapath is larger than 8 bit. Tracking a little over 72 IPS specification on most of my surfaces.
> Angle snapping was disabled. Polling can be forced over 125hz, but not with traditional methods such as hidusbf.


would you please explain how?


----------



## Phos

This is something I've been wondering about: Are the 9500/9800's acceleration issues consistent enough that it could be fixed with a look up table? Is it far enough off that mark that there would be ambiguous circumstances?


----------



## raisinbun

Wow, re-editing! Waiting eagerly for the updates


----------



## Ino.

"I can't wait to read this re-edit!"

"Yes, you can!"

"Oh, I guess you're right







"


----------



## hellr4isEr

i need this guide up.. im trying to buy a mouse very very soon!!


----------



## Trull

It's nice that you're re-editing, but you could've just left the post untouched meanwhile... just saying.


----------



## 161029

It's been awhile now, Skylit. Waiting for that edit to be finished.


----------



## STRON

Hello,

I don't know if this is the right place to ask for help. If not; let me know.

I'm having some problems with my Sensei Raw sometimes while playing Battlefield 3 (the only game I play ATM). Although it doesn't happen every time, it feels like the DPI is bumping up to ~1200 DPI (or something like that) and then back to my current which is 810 @ 500Hz, and it bothers me so much.

I'm using a SteelSeries 4HD - thinking of getting a SteelSeries S&S, but I don't know if it's any good paired with the Sensei Raw.

Should I run any test to see if there's something wrong?

_*(I'll might post a picture or two of my mouse-feets. The standard that I'm currently using feels like some cheap s****







)*_


----------



## HaiiYaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TlMOTHY*
> 
> Hello,
> I don't know if this is the right place to ask for help. If not; let me know.
> I'm having some problems with my Sensei Raw sometimes while playing Battlefield 3 (the only game I play ATM). Although it doesn't happen every time, it feels like the DPI is bumping up to ~1200 DPI (or something like that) and then back to my current which is 810 @ 500Hz, and it bothers me so much.
> I'm using a SteelSeries 4HD - thinking of getting a SteelSeries S&S, but I don't know if it's any good paired with the Sensei Raw.
> Should I run any test to see if there's something wrong?
> _*(I'll might post a picture or two of my mouse-feets. The standard that I'm currently using feels like some cheap s****
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )*_


Did you turn off "enhance pointer precision" in windows?


----------



## Phos

Those laser sensors have trouble with acceleration during fast swipes, though it's only five percent at most so I'm not sure if that's what you're experiencing.


----------



## STRON

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HaiiYaa*
> 
> Did you turn off "enhance pointer precision" in windows?


Hell, yes!


----------



## STRON

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> Those laser sensors have trouble with acceleration during fast swipes, though it's only five percent at most so I'm not sure if that's what you're experiencing.


Maybe...

Thanks anyway.


----------



## STRON

Guys,

I'm looking for a optical mouse... and I would like to use it on a clothpad - is that bad?

I'm a low DPI user; ~600-1000 DPI. What mouse and pad would be great for me?

A clothpad would be perfect, but my Sensei Raw wouldn't work well on that. So that's why I'm thinking of getting a new mouse instead, but optical mouse (accuracy).

Thanks!

--


----------



## phlare

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TlMOTHY*
> 
> Guys,
> I'm looking for a optical mouse... and I would like to use it on a clothpad - is that bad?
> I'm a low DPI user; ~600-1000 DPI. What mouse and pad would be great for me?
> A clothpad would be perfect, but my Sensei Raw wouldn't work well on that. So that's why I'm thinking of getting a new mouse instead, but optical mouse (accuracy).
> Thanks!
> --


Being a low DPI user, I'm assuming you prefer moderate to low sensitivity in games? What's your typical inch/cm per 360°? I moved on to clothpads years ago, and I certainly haven't looked back. You can generally achieve even less friction with some hardpads, but the friction from clothpads feels much smoother, and in my experience gives you a greater feeling of control. I can wholeheartedly recommend the G400. No prediction/angle-snapping (unless you're extremely unlucky and receive an old version - just make sure to buy from a large retailer and you should be more than safe). Great sensor as well (no acceleration). Overall superb mouse.

As for mousepads, the classic Qpad CT is a decent match. I've stocked up on the Grin version because I enjoy the design, but the regular versions are more conservative if that's your thing. Good luck!


----------



## RedJokr

Is there an estimated finish date to this re-edit Skylit? Just wondering cause ima buy a new mouse soon.


----------



## STRON

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phlare*
> 
> Being a low DPI user, I'm assuming you prefer moderate to low sensitivity in games? What's your typical inch/cm per 360°? I moved on to clothpads years ago, and I certainly haven't looked back. You can generally achieve even less friction with some hardpads, but the friction from clothpads feels much smoother, and in my experience gives you a greater feeling of control. I can wholeheartedly recommend the G400. No prediction/angle-snapping (unless you're extremely unlucky and receive an old version - just make sure to buy from a large retailer and you should be more than safe). Great sensor as well (no acceleration). Overall superb mouse.
> As for mousepads, the classic Qpad CT is a decent match. I've stocked up on the Grin version because I enjoy the design, but the regular versions are more conservative if that's your thing. Good luck!


Thank you for answering my question, phlare!

Well, right now I'm using 720 DPI (CPI in the SteelSeries Engine) and low in-game sensitivity; but I don't actually know how many cm per 360. If I use the whole mousepad, I'm around 320-330 degrees (I have a SteelSeries 4HD). So I actually have to lift or "swipe" my mouse in order to make a full 360.

I've been looking on the Logitech G400 for a while now. I have a few questions about it:

1. The surface on the mouse - is it grey or brown?
2. It looks a bit "uncomfortable" - am I wrong?
3. How well does the G400's sensor track on a "cheap" surfaces such as this: QcK?

Thanks!

--

Timothy


----------



## raisinbun

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TlMOTHY*
> 
> Thank you for answering my question, phlare!
> Well, right now I'm using 720 DPI (CPI in the SteelSeries Engine) and low in-game sensitivity; but I don't actually know how many cm per 360. If I use the whole mousepad, I'm around 320-330 degrees (I have a SteelSeries 4HD). So I actually have to lift or "swipe" my mouse in order to make a full 360.
> I've been looking on the Logitech G400 for a while now. I have a few questions about it:
> 1. The surface on the mouse - is it grey or brown?
> 2. It looks a bit "uncomfortable" - am I wrong?
> 3. How well does the G400's sensor track on a "cheap" surfaces such as this: QcK?
> Thanks!
> --
> Timothy


G400 has no problem on QcK; QcK is actually quite good in terms of tracking for optical sensors... and it is a comfortable mouse for many palme-grippers and maybe some claw-grippers.


----------



## STRON

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raisinbun*
> 
> G400 has no problem on QcK; QcK is actually quite good in terms of tracking for optical sensors... and it is a comfortable mouse for many palme-grippers and maybe some claw-grippers.


Thanks, man!

How about the black Logitech-logo located on the mouse? It looks like something that'll make me crazy... constantly annoy my hand.


----------



## ChaoticKinesis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raisinbun*
> 
> G400 has no problem on QcK; QcK is actually quite good in terms of tracking for optical sensors... and it is a comfortable mouse for many palme-grippers and maybe some claw-grippers.


Most people would say G400 requires palm grip and the thumb indentation forces a very specific positioning. For me the mouse is moderately comfortable for palm gripping and very uncomfortable for any other grip. It also has the worst scroll wheel I've ever used, making it the only mouse I own that I dislike.

My favorite optical mouse for palm grip is the Death Adder and the Roccat Savu for claw grip.


----------



## Ino.

Come on skylit, now you're just teasing us! I need this guide back for my daily dose of mouse sensor knowledge...


----------



## James N

Good to know i am not the only addict ! I have like 12 Mice and 8 Mechanical Keyboard here. I am even using my left hand for RTS games and my Right Hand for Fps games(due to that, i always have 2 mice on my desk) with a Sens of 100cm= 360 (many of my friends make fun of me at lans because of that XD). So i always spend hours watching and reading trying to find the next perfect mouse! I wonder which mouse Skylit is using?

I am checking every day if he already updated this Thread !


----------



## Scorpion667

Skylit just wanna say I appreciate all your input in this forum. It helped me snag up some quality mice!

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tehspirit

Is old guide somewhere available?

Does anybody here have backup copy? Can you upload it?


----------



## hofy

Another request for the old guide, please.


----------



## jacktradesnbk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hofy*
> 
> Another request for the old guide, please.


The new guide is up thanks to skylit, but have a look here for different versions of it in time.

http://wayback-beta.archive.org/web/*/http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/*


----------



## raisinbun

The new list is much clearer if one just wanna look up which sensor is used in a particular mouse







But I miss the old technical information about individual sensor, which the link above gives







Rep+ for the old link, and many thanks to Skylit for the new list


----------



## Ino.

Hey Skylit, now that I took a closer look at the new list I was wondering where the non CMOS based sensor mice are? Did you exclude them on purpose? Like the Lachesis and all the other Philips Twin-Eye sensor mice.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raisinbun*
> 
> The new list is much clearer if one just wanna look up which sensor is used in a particular mouse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I miss the old technical information about individual sensor, which the link above gives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rep+ for the old link, and many thanks to Skylit for the new list


Sorry. I would have kept the old one up, but it had a lot of technical information that maybe shouldn't have been posted initially. I don't want to go into specifics, though lets say I'm protecting myself if anything were to happen.

@Ino. I'll have to re-add those. I lost my previous list.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

i have a legacy question about sensors in mx300 and g1. Is the difference only in lens or is srom programing different?


----------



## Arizonian

Steel Series Fnatic uses the Avago 9500.


----------



## Skylit

Yes quite easy to figure out, but the sensei is listed there and didn't see the need to add as Steelseries does many custom SKU's


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Yes quite easy to figure out, but the sensei is listed there and didn't see the need to add as Steelseries does many custom SKU's


----------



## White Strike

What really is the difference between the Avago 9500 and the 9800?
I wanna buy a new mouse and the Sensei was the first in my mind. Now there is the Sensei RAW with the 9500 and the Mlg edition with the 9800.
Is there really a big difference concerning quality?


----------



## ZareliMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *White Strike*
> 
> What really is the difference between the Avago 9500 and the 9800?
> I wanna buy a new mouse and the Sensei was the first in my mind. Now there is the Sensei RAW with the 9500 and the Mlg edition with the 9800.
> Is there really a big difference concerning quality?


I would get the raw, all the extra features are unneeded IMO.
But if you like that shape I think Zowie has better choices.


----------



## CeeSA

anyone knows the sensor of the Gigabyte FORCE M7 (Powered by 3200dpi blue gaming optical sensor)
Force M7


----------



## Skylit

Pixart 3305.


----------



## kblo

I have one Abyssus here that is (1800dpi)S3668 and another (3.5G)S3888

I had to opened both to use one onrom switch to put my abyssus 3.5g back in action.

it was broken because i used it like a hammer against my table in a moment of rage.

is there anyway to know what sensor one mice uses besides by opening them?


----------



## Skylit

Yes Cyclosa bundle. That Abyssus uses completely different internal hardware, software etc...


----------



## STRON

I'm getting sick of this. Everytime I play, after a round ~30 mins. the mouse/DPI feels so different on my Sensei Raw.

I think the DPI is changing by itself - isn't that a feature of the ADNS-9500?

Anyways, going to use my vanilla Sensei to check if I'm having the same problem...


----------



## zulk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Yes Cyclosa bundle. That Abyssus uses completely different internal hardware, software etc...


The 1800 abyssus even has a firmware update, I tried doing that with my 3.5G long back but then having failed I thought that was another gen or something.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zulk*
> 
> The 1800 abyssus even has a firmware update, I tried doing that with my 3.5G long back but then having failed I thought that was another gen or something.


Yup. That Abyssus uses the same controller as 4G DA/Krait, though performance and programming is sub par compared to the 3.5G sold globally ^^

I believe that same model was updated to work w/ synapse. Results may differ now, who knows


----------



## STRON

Nope, vanilla Sensei is all good.

Does anybody know what's wrong with my Sensei Raw? This is really pissing me off. Especially when I'm scrimming...

Thanks.


----------



## Phos

I'm curious if there are any strong pix art sensors, I see skylit remarking that they aren't fairly frequently.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TlMOTHY*
> 
> Nope, vanilla Sensei is all good.
> 
> Does anybody know what's wrong with my Sensei Raw? This is really pissing me off. Especially when I'm scrimming...
> 
> Thanks.


My mate had similar problems and worse (mouse stopped responding, etc). Been using his Sensei Raw for a while now and... well it works fine. Dunno it's like the SS drivers are kind of dodgy combined with some motherboards their USB drivers or something :s


----------



## kazuyamishima

Great thread.


----------



## meih

How's the Zowie EC's (angle snapping version) hardware and sensor performance compared to the eVo version? I don't mind prediction and had problems with AM's hw (mainly unstable polling)
edit: and are there some external differences?


----------



## Tisca

Great thread but list could use some updating. Anyone know what sensors are in the R.A.T 5 and 7?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tisca*
> 
> Great thread but list could use some updating. Anyone know what sensors are in the R.A.T 5 and 7?


P.T.E. 2031 is used in the 5, and P.T.E. 2032 is used in the 7:
http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2024663


----------



## Yahar

Any news about new PTE sensors? I would like to use a Philips Twin Eye, if they fixed Z-axis tracking and being overly sensitivie about dust particles. Last news I've seen are from 2010


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Any news about new PTE sensors? I would like to use a Philips Twin Eye, if they fixed Z-axis tracking and being overly sensitivie about dust particles. Last news I've seen are from 2010


I doubt that dust sensitivity could be remedied other than cleaning, but some R.A.T. mice have their Z-axis blocked to prevent tracking:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1236233/rat-3-vs-5-vs-7-vs-9#post_16904902
http://www.overclock.net/t/1359111/choosing-a-new-mouse-between-razer-da-models-and-steelseries-sensei-for-gaming/40#post_19331243


----------



## Yahar

Wow, that is nice to hear! Why aren't we using PTE sensors then? They have much higher max speeds, are more accurate.

Is this solely because of dust problem?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Wow, that is nice to hear! Why aren't we using PTE sensors then? They have much higher max speeds, are more accurate.
> 
> Is this solely because of dust problem?


They lack L.O.D., and I bet that they might not track well on some surfaces, such as cloth.

I have a 4,000 C.P.I. Lachesis (3G), and it has a P.T.E. sensor.

Razer reportedly uses "acceleration" via "dynamic DPI scaling" to "fix" the Z-axis of their P.T.E. mice, excluding mine:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1279355/looking-for-a-new-mouse


----------



## jayfkay

What is known about the 4g dual sensor stuff? I heard the new razers with 4g are the "BEST".
LOD? general tracking quality? jitter/ skipping? acceleration? prediction? malfuinction speed?


----------



## ZareliMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Wow, that is nice to hear! Why aren't we using PTE sensors then? They have much higher max speeds, are more accurate.
> 
> Is this solely because of dust problem?


Because the "fix" is not absolute really, is much like a tapefix.
So, in a smaller, brief interval, the sensor still would track on the Z-axis...

Still, the PTE seems to have so much bad reputation now that even the mouse manufacturers stopped using it and replaced the high cpi sensor with the avago one.


----------



## Phos

A lot of RATs have this problem where they're loosing tracking in one axis but not the other once in a while. That blocker thing doesn't really do much about the Z axis issue (the problem for me was that pushing down caused the mouse to wander), and it makes it a dust magnet.

Seems to me if you were to add a second PTE sensor rotated 180 degrees and then swap its sign and then average it with the reading from the first the Z axis issue would average itself out.


----------



## ZareliMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> A lot of RATs have this problem where they're loosing tracking in one axis but not the other once in a while. That blocker thing doesn't really do much about the Z axis issue (the problem for me was that pushing down caused the mouse to wander), and it makes it a dust magnet.
> 
> Seems to me if you were to add a second PTE sensor rotated 180 degrees and then swap its sign and then average it with the reading from the first the Z axis issue would average itself out.


That would result in a very heavy and expensive mouse.
The solution might be much simpler than that, but the sensor/mouse technology is stuck in a "local optimum" where no one is willing to correct their products or make any real effort to improve them.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZareliMan*
> 
> That would result in a very heavy and expensive mouse.
> The solution might be much simpler than that, but the sensor/mouse technology is stuck in a "local optimum" where no one is willing to correct their products or make any real effort to improve them.


The PTE is really cheap and small, though. Seems doable.


----------



## ZareliMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> The PTE is really cheap and small, though. Seems doable.


Oh well I don't know those exact values, I just assumed...


----------



## bigaluksys

Hey guys, how's the A3080 sensor in X-718BK? Does it have angle snapping or acceleration?


----------



## Glymbol

Information about A4Tech X7 mice is outdated. New X-718BK is no longer equipped with A3080, it has some Pixart sensor instead. The old one had angle snapping but no acceleration.


----------



## bigaluksys

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> Information about A4Tech X7 mice is outdated. New X-718BK is no longer equipped with A3080, it has some Pixart sensor instead. The old one had angle snapping but no acceleration.


Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure, but I think it's now equipped with PixArt PAW3305DK.

http://wikiwiki.jp/fpag/?X-718BK-JP


----------



## Berserker1

Had new x-710mk, that pixart sensor is horrible. Tracking feels very laggy and wierd, low malfunction speed, has some wierd bug when you move the mouse and then lift it off, view in-game begins to rotate like xbox controller. It rotates while the mouse is in the air, still rotates when you put the mouse down. You need to fully stop the mouse to lift it off without bugs.


----------



## bigaluksys

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Berserker1*
> 
> Had new x-710mk, that pixart sensor is horrible. Tracking feels very laggy and wierd, low malfunction speed, has some wierd bug when you move the mouse and then lift it off, view in-game begins to rotate like xbox controller. It rotates while the mouse is in the air, still rotates when you put the mouse down. You need to fully stop the mouse to lift it off without bugs.


And I was thinking that all these problems you have mentioned above were related to something else. Thanks for the heads up.

Well, then can you guys recommend another mouse? I'm looking for something with NO angle snapping and no acceleration (if possible).
My budget is kinda low, so I was thinking of buying either a Coolermaster Spawn or a Corsair M60. I know that angle snapping can be disabled for Corsair M60, not so sure about CM Spawn.

I was gonna buy a Logitech G400, but I can't find it anywhere (out of stock).


----------



## test user

Hey, cool thread!


----------



## litoralis

The new Logitech G500s has what sensor? Does it snap or not?


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *litoralis*
> 
> The new Logitech G500s has what sensor? Does it snap or not?


Avago ADNS-9800.

There is no angle snapping.


----------



## dmasteR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *litoralis*
> 
> The new Logitech G500s has what sensor? Does it snap or not?


It has the option for angle snapping actually. You can turn it on/off.


----------



## Tator Tot

It's off by default.

So no need to worry about P&P issues.


----------



## un-nefer

The GEIL Epicgear Meduza is not in the list, so I've included the info needed so the first post can be updated









Epicgear Meduza details:

This mouse has 2 sensors - 1x optical and 1x laser
Optical sensor: Avago ADNS-3060
Laser Sensor: Avago ADNS-9500
You can select to use either the laser sensor, the optical sensor, or both together in "HDST" mode
Angle Snapping: Can turn on/off in mouse software
Lift-off distance: Can be set in mouse software


----------



## Maximus Knight

guys help! CM Storm Spawn or Deathadder 2013!?


----------



## b0z0

I'm waiting for my DA 2013 to be delivered.


----------



## nlmiller0015

its a pretty good mouse


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximus Knight*
> 
> guys help! CM Storm Spawn or Deathadder 2013!?


The Spawn might suffer from the known C.P.U. usage spikes, so the DeathAdder 2013 would be better, I.M.O., unless the "smoothing" would be noticeable or if the spiking would never occur because of a fix or etc.


----------



## nlmiller0015

If you worried about the smoothing Id say go for the 3.5g I have black edition and its dpi setting are pretty spot on accurate 450/900/1800/3500. 1800 and 3500 are the native steps 450/900 are halved and quarter from 1800 dpi step when using the legacy driver of course with synapse its different. The deathadder 2013 I also have. Its native is only 6400 dpi as far as I know im not sure how the rest of the dpi steps are calculated.


----------



## Lenory

I have a question I heard the deathadder 2013 uses the avago 3090 variant . But how is it able to go up to 6400 dpi. I heard the avago 3090 only goes up to 1800 to 3500. or 400.800.1600.4000 is there a newer version Im over looking? . I want to buy this mouse but im thinking about getting the black edition since my friend being telling me good things about it.


----------



## Maximus Knight

Anyone has the Microsoft Comfort 6000? Seems to be the Intelli of today...might try that out too..


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximus Knight*
> 
> Anyone has the Microsoft Comfort 6000? Seems to be the Intelli of today...might try that out too..


Shape & Weight are very similar; sensor isn't as good.

I don't have any performance data on it, but it works fairly well most of the time.


----------



## Dunan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bigaluksys*
> 
> And I was thinking that all these problems you have mentioned above were related to something else. Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> Well, then can you guys recommend another mouse? I'm looking for something with NO angle snapping and no acceleration (if possible).
> My budget is kinda low, so I was thinking of buying either a Coolermaster Spawn or a Corsair M60. I know that angle snapping can be disabled for Corsair M60, not so sure about CM Spawn.
> 
> I was gonna buy a Logitech G400, but I can't find it anywhere (out of stock).


Roccat savu. *excellent* tracking, no angle snapping or acceleration. Well built, impressive mouse.


----------



## bigaluksys

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dunan*
> 
> Roccat savu. *excellent* tracking, no angle snapping or acceleration. Well built, impressive mouse.


I already bought a CM Storm Spawn and I'm really liking it. It really fits my grip style.

But thanks for the reply anyway


----------



## un-nefer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-nefer*
> 
> The GEIL Epicgear Meduza is not in the list, so I've included the info needed so the first post can be updated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Epicgear Meduza details:
> 
> This mouse has 2 sensors - 1x optical and 1x laser
> Optical sensor: Avago ADNS-3060
> Laser Sensor: Avago ADNS-9500
> You can select to use either the laser sensor, the optical sensor, or both together in "HDST" mode
> Angle Snapping: Can turn on/off in mouse software
> Lift-off distance: Can be set in mouse software


bump


----------



## Ufasas

Talking about avago 9800... Mionix NAOS 8200 has been fixed, reading forums around the internet.. 9800 is in corsair m65 too, waiting for fix http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=116225&page=4


----------



## Arizonian

Per request of Skylit - ownership of this thread has been transferred to *woll3.*

I'd like to extremely thank *Skylit* for the amount of time he's dedicated to this thread and keeping things accurate and updated consistently. A huge help to OCN members coming to this section. Those of us who've used this as a reference every time we buy a mouse knows what I mean.









Thank you woll3 for taking over the helm and maintaining this thread and I'm sure active ' mice ' enthusiast will concur thier gratitude.


----------



## nlmiller0015

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Talking about avago 9800... Mionix NAOS 8200 has been fixed, reading forums around the internet.. 9800 is in corsair m65 too, waiting for fix http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=116225&page=4


I know that s great but logitech own hasnt I test g500s you can still feel the delay on that compared other optical and laser mice I used


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> Per request of Skylit - ownership of this thread has been transferred to *woll3.*
> 
> I'd like to extremely thank *Skylit* for the amount of time he's dedicated to this thread and keeping things accurate and updated consistently. A huge help to OCN members coming to this section. Those of us who've used this as a reference every time we buy a mouse knows what I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you woll3 for taking over the helm and maintaining this thread and I'm sure active ' mice ' enthusiast will concur thier gratitude.


Thank you.


----------



## Robobot

I've been lurking here for awhile, and I have decided to finally post here.

I have the same Logitech MX300 for ages now, and while it still works and I still love it, it won't last forever, so I've been looking for a replacement.

I've tried a Razer Deathadder (can't deal with the shape), Abyssus (best I've used but I don't like the sensor, I think I may have a bad one), and Razer Copperhead. I liked the feel of the Abyssus, but it felt a little off. I don't like the feel of the Deathadder and the Copperhead like the Abyssus, feels off. I use my MX300 at 400 DPI/500 MHz, 6/11 windows. I'm not sure of the exact number, but my 360 is about 11" or so.

So anyway, here's what I wanted to ask - which of these sensors is closest in use to the A2020 in the MX300? I can judge shapes on my own easily, but I am having a lot of trouble figuring out the sensors. I've looked up reviews but I don't fully understand which sensor would feel closest to my MX300. BST's mouse looks interesting, and I've seen comparrisons to my MX300, but is there anything out now I can use?

Thanks guys, and sorry for how vague that was.


----------



## phl0w

I'm in the same boat like you. Been using a MX300 for 11 years. Best mouse ever. Period.
Like yours, mine is working fine, but won't last forever, also I'm eager to trying something new, most of all because the MX300 is perfect at 1000Hz. However, this needs tweaking of your OS- not possible with Windows 8 though.
On my hunt I've bought and/ or been using the following mice in the last two months:
SteelSeries Sensei RAW
Razer Taipan
Razer Abyssus
Zowie FK
Logitech G100s
2x Microsoft WMO 1.1a

First of all: forget any laser mouse if you want a feeling close to the MX300. I immediately ditched the Sensei and the Taipan.
While Avago's 3xxx optical sensor series is based on the A2020, there are quite large differences in feeling with those.
The closest feeling to the legendary MX300 provided Zowie's FK at [email protected] (488dpi measured), and most recently my newly acquired G100s. Strangely enough the latter felt really good at [email protected], while the FK was way too sensitive at its 1150dpi setting. (EDIT: This maybe due to the fact that I used the MX300 with a horizontal resolution of 800, and the G100s now at 1920 which is 2.4 times more, while 1000dpi is 2.5 times 400dpi. Just an educated guess though why I really like the sensor behaviour with te G100s.)
The G100s is 1000/1750/2500dpi with Windows' generic drivers, and 250-2500 with Logitech's software, although only in 250dpi increments, unless you use an older iteration of drivers that allows steps of 50dpi. However, I can only assume that this won't feel as good as those 250 increments due to different interpolation. I uninstalled Logitech's drivers though, because they introduced a different feeling that I can't quite put my finger on, and I always used my MX300 only with generic Windows drivers. That said, while you won't be able to get 400dpi like with the MX300 without drivers, it's all about that hand-to-cursor feeling, if you know what I mean. Both, the FK, and G100s feel as raw as it gets, with the FK maybe more so than the G100s. I'd still give the G100s the edge on 1000dpi vs the FK's 1150 though in comparison to the MX300. Now, let's not forget, the MX300 had quite some prediction (e.g. it's simply not possible to draw a close to perfect circle), and the same is true for the G100s as far is can tell from playing around with it in paint. Also lift-off distance on the G100s is much more comparable to the MX300 than the basically non-existant lod on the FK.
To put it in other words: I instantly felt at home with the G100s grip and sensor wise. Now if it wasn't for those hideous ornaments on its surface, I'd actually use it. Although the FK's grip leaves A LOT to be desired, as a gaming mouse it doesn't look like a kiddie's toy for a change, but rather classy.


----------



## Robobot

that's really interesting - I've been looking at both of those mice. so you're saying you recommend the 1OOs over the FK? I wouldn't mind spending 30 bucks on a g100s to try it out. I guess the major problem I (we?) have is getting a 400 dpi mouse with this shape.

Here's hoping BSTs mouse gives us what we're looking for, eh?


----------



## Ino.

Hey Woll3, just one small thing: you misspelled VCSEL as VSCEL under "optical laser"


----------



## Skylit

That may or may not have been me from my last edit.


----------



## woll3

Whatever the Reason, its fixed now.


----------



## Komip

guys madcatz rat 3 got best sensor on market a3090....i want to upgrade from my g9x it should be ok? any particular issue with this mouse?


----------



## woll3

Yes, non native steps(450, 900) are terribly inconsistent, 1800 and 3500 are ok.


----------



## CerwinVega

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Yes, non native steps(450, 900) are terribly inconsistent, 1800 and 3500 are ok.


So, Zowie's EC eVo, AM, FK, are inconsistent att 450 DPI?

Weird that they made 450, 1150, 2300 steps then?

Might be a stupid question, but im a newbie..


----------



## Ufasas

got zowie fk, all is consistent at 1150, no sh**


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CerwinVega*
> 
> So, Zowie's EC eVo, AM, FK, are inconsistent att 450 DPI?
> 
> Weird that they made 450, 1150, 2300 steps then?
> 
> Might be a stupid question, but im a newbie..


No, Woll3 was talking about the Rat3 specifically. Most mice perform better at 400(450), 800 dpi. This one doesn't.


----------



## hza

Yeah, my Savu (3090) also is all good at 400 and 800 dpi. Never tried other values.


----------



## CerwinVega

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> No, Woll3 was talking about the Rat3 specifically. Most mice perform better at 400(450), 800 dpi. This one doesn't.


Oh, thanks for the clarification









I thought it was the sensor.. hehe, stupid of me


----------



## TK421

anybody know what's the sensor used in a4tech bloody?

and the best dpi setting if available.

thanks in advance


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> anybody know what's the sensor used in a4tech bloody?
> 
> and the best dpi setting if available.
> 
> thanks in advance


It's a PixArt 3305DK, see here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1356979/a4tech-bloody-v7/


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It's a PixArt 3305DK, see here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1356979/a4tech-bloody-v7/


I see, thanks for the info.
What DPi do you find your kana (which uses the same sensor) is most accurate? I'm using 3200 (max)


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> I see, thanks for the info.
> What DPi do you find your kana (which uses the same sensor) is most accurate? I'm using 3200 (max)


800, Kana sucks at anything higher because of the massive path correction and the lower malfunction speed. 800 is the best setting for Kana.

Pic of path correction: http://i.imgur.com/JsfyDbz.png


----------



## Alma69

Guys, witch one has a better sensor zowie evo ec1 or deathadder 2013? My IE 3.0 just died after ten years of abuse







and i try to decide between those two.


----------



## hza

Sure you don't want to get Roccat Kone Pure Optical into the race?


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> 800, Kana sucks at anything higher because of the massive path correction and the lower malfunction speed. 800 is the best setting for Kana.
> 
> Pic of path correction: http://i.imgur.com/JsfyDbz.png


wow, that's brutal. What's the max tracking speed on it like? I'd hope it could track fairly fast if it can only really do 800 DPI.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alma69*
> 
> Guys, witch one has a better sensor zowie evo ec1 or deathadder 2013? My IE 3.0 just died after ten years of abuse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and i try to decide between those two.


Well, Zowie mice are limited to a max tracking speed of about 2.8 - 3.4 metres per second, in my experience, so be aware of that if you love super low sensitivity. If the IE 3.0 has the same sensor as the WMO, then you'll be fine, since those maxed out at a fairly low speed; albeit, without the cursor stopping in place, like on my Zowie AM.

Zowie mice also have a super low LOD and the button clicks are fairly hard.

The deathadder isn't really the same shape as the IE. The edges are curved more aggressively and the top is arched somewhat more and the peak is a bit further forward, compared to my IE 1.0. The IE fits my hand perfectly and the deathadder doesn't at all.

I'd recommend the Deathadder 3.5G over the 4G, due to the mouse smoothing that's been reported on the 2013 version.

My suggestion would be to try them out in person, if you can.

You should also look at a Logitech G400. It's a bit of a weird shape, but it can be really nice to palm grip for some people. The scroll wheel really sucks, though.


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> I'd recommend the Deathadder 3.5G over the 4G, due to the mouse smoothing that's been reported on the 2013 version.


The reported "smoothing" must be the algorithm that users noticed? If using higher C.P.I. than what would be useful on the previous DeathAdders, the 2013 (4G) would be my recommendation; jitter might be worse on the previous DeathAdders.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> The reported "smoothing" must be the algorithm that users noticed? If using higher C.P.I. than what would be useful on the previous DeathAdders, the 2013 (4G) would be my recommendation; jitter might be worse on the previous DeathAdders.


Well, if he's coming from an IE 3.0, he's probably not going past 3500 DPI.


----------



## popups

If I used 6400 CPI my sensitivity would be 0.095.


----------



## Skylit

^It isn't really that big of a deal for a majority of users.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> 800, Kana sucks at anything higher because of the massive path correction and the lower malfunction speed. 800 is the best setting for Kana.
> 
> Pic of path correction: http://i.imgur.com/JsfyDbz.png


That's actually interpolation off the fairly non optimal 3200 CPI registry value.

The mouse is much more accurate and corrects less than any previous Agilent/Avago based 3060/3080.

400 CPI uses the true 800 reg, and 800 uses the true 1600 reg. The sensor actually defaults at 1200, granted was not implemented in Steelseries solution.


----------



## popups

Spoiler: Comment



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> ^It isn't really that big of a deal for a majority of users.
> That's actually interpolation off the fairly non optimal 3200 CPI registry value.
> 
> The mouse is much more accurate and corrects less than any previous Agilent/Avago based 3060/3080.
> 
> 400 CPI uses the true 800 reg, and 800 uses the true 1600 reg. The sensor actually defaults at 1200, granted was not implemented in Steelseries solution.





Just saying if I used high CPI, like 6400, my sensitivity would be almost 0...

The pixel array is 32*32? So why default to 1200 if the lens is 1:1? Is 400/800/1200/1600/2000/2400/2800/3200 offered by the sensor but usage limited by memory of MCU? By the way, the Kana v2's options are the same as these PAW-3305DK options. Does this mean it's the doing of PixArt?


----------



## Skylit

Was referring to the convo above your post.

Max registry is based on 800 multiple. Yes, all those are offered.

Should be. Been a year.


----------



## Alma69

So... on low dpi zowie has a better sensor or deathadder?
Im asking in this thred only about sensor, the form factor is too much matter of taste.

About roccat, think I saw some very disipointment thread here from savu bayer? But maybe pure optic is another story. How is on low dpi compared to other two?
I actually only used IE 3.0


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alma69*
> 
> So... on low dpi zowie has a better sensor or deathadder?
> Im asking in this thred only about sensor, the form factor is too much matter of taste.
> 
> About roccat, think I saw some very disipointment thread here from savu bayer? But maybe pure optic is another story. How is on low dpi compared to other two?
> I actually only used IE 3.0


They have the same sensor architecture and track pretty much the same. The only differences are the DPI steps, deathadder has higher LOD and the max tracking speed of the deathadder is a lot higher, due the lens.

I've never heard anything bad about the savu, apart from its shape.

I'm also not sure if the kone pure optical has angle snapping on it. It's not on the list of mice with it disabled. Angle snapping is pretty subtle, but it does make it harder to play.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> ^It isn't really that big of a deal for a majority of users.
> That's actually interpolation off the fairly non optimal 3200 CPI registry value.
> 
> The mouse is much more accurate and corrects less than any previous Agilent/Avago based 3060/3080.
> 
> 400 CPI uses the true 800 reg, and 800 uses the true 1600 reg. The sensor actually defaults at 1200, granted was not implemented in Steelseries solution.


Skylit, thanks for the explanation.

I use 1000Hz, is that a suitable report rate for the Bloody X7/Kana?

Can you explain more about the CPI and "reg" please?


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alma69*
> 
> So... on low dpi zowie has a better sensor or deathadder?
> Im asking in this thred only about sensor, the form factor is too much matter of taste.
> 
> About roccat, think I saw some very disipointment thread here from savu bayer? But maybe pure optic is another story. How is on low dpi compared to other two?
> I actually only used IE 3.0


I used my Savu at 400/800dpi @ 1000Hz. Honestly, tracking-wise it's it's one of the "best" mice I've used so far. I'm honest with you, shape is a matter of taste. Pretty responsive in every aspect and believe me, its weight is just perfect. Kone Pure Optical may fit more people than Savu though. However, I'm back on my G500 because it's a little more comfortable for me. I'm waiting for Naga 2014 or an update/replacement of Imperator with new PTE. I'll use that till Roccat will implement PTE in one of their mice. Should this mouse please me at all, I'll just buy a Kone Pure Optical. I like Roccat nowadays. I feel like they go the right direction.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> I used my Savu at 400/800dpi @ 1000Hz. Honestly, tracking-wise it's it's one of the "best" mice I've used so far. I'm honest with you, shape is a matter of taste. Pretty responsive in every aspect and believe me, its weight is just perfect. Kone Pure Optical may fit more people than Savu though. However, I'm back on my G500 because it's a little more comfortable for me. I'm waiting for Naga 2014 or an update/replacement of Imperator with new PTE. I'll use that *till Roccat will implement PTE in one of their mice.* Should this mouse please me at all, I'll just buy a Kone Pure Optical. I like Roccat nowadays. I feel like they go the right direction.


I would love to see that!


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> I used my Savu at 400/800dpi @ 1000Hz. Honestly, tracking-wise it's it's one of the "best" mice I've used so far. I'm honest with you, shape is a matter of taste. Pretty responsive in every aspect and believe me, its weight is just perfect. Kone Pure Optical may fit more people than Savu though. However, I'm back on my G500 because it's a little more comfortable for me. I'm waiting for Naga 2014 or an update/replacement of Imperator with new PTE. I'll use that till Roccat will implement PTE in one of their mice. Should this mouse please me at all, I'll just buy a Kone Pure Optical. I like Roccat nowadays. I feel like they go the right direction.


Roccat might be able to pull off a doppler sensor. I haven't used them at all since the RAT series mice have some reliability issues, and Razer is making most of the other PTE mice. Also, it's way too hard to find a large hard mousepad.


----------



## Gacrux

I couldn't find anyone mentioning anything about the Zalman ZM-GM3 Eclipse: http://www.zalman.com/global/product/Product_Read.php?Idx=781

Zalman says it has ADNS-9800 and Omrom micro switches.

I know it not the best good looking mouse and certainly not the most comfortable, but it seems to have a good hardware and honest price, I mean, at least where I live.

I'm looking for a very high DPI mouse with 8200DPI and this Zalman Eclipse seems to be the cheapest one I can get here around $50. Other mouses with this same sensor such as Corsair, Roccat, Steelseries and Razer starts at $100 and can go up to $200 (absurd I know).


----------



## hza

Huh, weird design. Let's put it like that. ^^ I couldn't resist and didn't want to wait for Naga 2014, so, just bought a Kone Optical. I'm amazed, really. It feels sooo "silky" I believe. Savu is great, but this mouse kicks my ass like twice a day! Coating-wise I would even say it's somewhat similar to IME 3.0. Last time I was so impressed by a mouse was when I bought my Xai mid 2010. Gacrux, I know you want a 9800, but... Honestly, get a Roccat Pure Optical instead.


----------



## Gacrux

Roccat Pure costs $154 here.

I know, that Zalman sounds too good to be true, 9800 sensor and Omrom switches for $50 here (aprox. $35 in USA)? And yeah, it's ugly and doesn't seem as comfortable as the most expensive ones, but hey, I use a Microsoft Wired Basic 1.0 1.000 DPI for over 6 years for everything, from normal PC use to FPS such as Battlefield 3, I'm pretty sure it can't be worse than this









I'll probably go for something more expensive, but not as expensive as the Roccat, maybe something around $110 or a little bit more. Last month I bought a mechanical keyboard, I was willing to pay no more than $120 but ended paying $150 for my ABNT (my language layout) Tt Meka G1. Yes, I know things are expensive here, for $150 you can probably buy the pinnacle of mechanical keyboards in USA, but I have no choice, at least I'm pretty happy and satisfied with the keyboard.

My other options are:

CM Storm Sentinel Advance 2 - $98
Corsair Vengeance M65 - $115
Logitech G600 (I hated the macros on the grip) - $96
Razer Taipan - $165
Logitech G500s - $100

I liked the Logitech, but I know someone out there have some really serious cons about this mouse


----------



## hza

Sick prices over there...

What about Razer DA 3.5G/BE/2013? Or Roccat Savu? Still a good mouse I would put on a List if you're budget is too little for a Kone Pure.


----------



## qqqq

So I'm currently using Deathadder Black Edition with 450dpi and extremely low sensitivity (~160cm/360) and my problem is that the sensor has trouble picking up extremely fast swipes and ends up not really moving anywhere. I imagine I'm hitting the perfect control speed limit which brings 2 questions-

Does 3.5G still has the 1800dpi "issue" with lower perfect control on any other setting? While this would probably slightly help with the swipes, it would introduce another problem, which is having to mess with Windows sens and losing 1:1 tracking.

And second question, is there actually any noticeably "faster" sensor than the S3888? I've read in the thread that Zowie mice don't really have great perfect control which basically leaves the S3988 and S3095, and i'm not sure how much those improved the tracking, considering the MX518 A3080 was already losing to Deathadder in those very old esreality tests.


----------



## Thunderbringer

I recommend you to leave the DA BE at 1800 and set 2.5 in driver. Speed remains (~3.9 m/s).

The Abyssus (also 3888) tracks faster than any Zowie/Logi ~ 5.5 m/s at 450/1800/3500. However the Abyssus jitters at certain angles with certain cloth pads. Hope that helps you.

Edit:

also changing the Driver sensitivity minimizes the jitter, below 5.0 or less (at 1800 setting for example) makes Desktop usage possible.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gacrux*
> 
> Roccat Pure costs $154 here.
> 
> I know, that Zalman sounds too good to be true, 9800 sensor and Omrom switches for $50 here (aprox. $35 in USA)? And yeah, it's ugly and doesn't seem as comfortable as the most expensive ones, but hey, I use a Microsoft Wired Basic 1.0 1.000 DPI for over 6 years for everything, from normal PC use to FPS such as Battlefield 3, I'm pretty sure it can't be worse than this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll probably go for something more expensive, but not as expensive as the Roccat, maybe something around $110 or a little bit more. Last month I bought a mechanical keyboard, I was willing to pay no more than $120 but ended paying $150 for my ABNT (my language layout) Tt Meka G1. Yes, I know things are expensive here, for $150 you can probably buy the pinnacle of mechanical keyboards in USA, but I have no choice, at least I'm pretty happy and satisfied with the keyboard.
> 
> My other options are:
> 
> CM Storm Sentinel Advance 2 - $98
> Corsair Vengeance M65 - $115
> Logitech G600 (I hated the macros on the grip) - $96
> Razer Taipan - $108
> Logitech G500s - $100
> 
> I liked the Logitech, but I know someone out there have some really serious cons about this mouse


How about a Logitech G400?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qqqq*
> 
> So I'm currently using Deathadder Black Edition with 450dpi and extremely low sensitivity (~160cm/360) and my problem is that the sensor has trouble picking up extremely fast swipes and ends up not really moving anywhere. I imagine I'm hitting the perfect control speed limit which brings 2 questions-
> 
> Does 3.5G still has the 1800dpi "issue" with lower perfect control on any other setting? While this would probably slightly help with the swipes, it would introduce another problem, which is having to mess with Windows sens and losing 1:1 tracking.
> 
> And second question, is there actually any noticeably "faster" sensor than the S3888? I've read in the thread that Zowie mice don't really have great perfect control which basically leaves the S3988 and S3095, and i'm not sure how much those improved the tracking, considering the MX518 A3080 was already losing to Deathadder in those very old esreality tests.


Mx518 was only "losing" because Sujoy only tested the 1600 dpi setting. The mx518 (as most mice even these days) has its highest perfect control speed at 400 and 800 dpi.

At your sens you need to either a) set your DA at 1800 dpi (yes, 3.5G still has the issue) or b) switch to the Abyssus if you want the same sensor with the best PCS of any mouse I've ever seen at 450 dpi.
The A3090 variants can go faster than the implementation in the DA, like on the G400 or the Roccat Savu and Kone Pure Optical (all on 800 or 400 dpi)


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Mx518 was only "losing" because Sujoy only tested the 1600 dpi setting. The mx518 (as most mice even these days) has its highest perfect control speed at 400 and 800 dpi.
> 
> At your sens you need to either a) set your DA at 1800 dpi (yes, 3.5G still has the issue) or b) switch to the Abyssus if you want the same sensor with the best PCS of any mouse I've ever seen at 450 dpi.
> The A3090 variants can go faster than the implementation in the DA, like on the G400 or the Roccat Savu and Kone Pure Optical (all on 800 or 400 dpi)


I have an MX518 and when I run the Logitech drivers, the maximum speed of the mouse is limited to about 1.8 metres per second, whereas when I don't run the drivers, it can go all the way up above 4 metres per second. Maybe that messed with his review. The Logitech G400 seems to have improved on that perfect control speed by a little bit as well.


----------



## SinX7

Is the Roccat Kone XTD sensor any good?


----------



## Gacrux

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> How about a Logitech G400?


Would you recommend the G400 over the G500? I can afford the G500. If there is a special reason to avoid the G500 I'd like to know









Although the G500 costs the same as some Razers, Roccat, etc worldwide, stores here charges an extra for them, resulting in a premium price tag just because it's an "elite gamer" brand lol.


----------



## Berserker1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gacrux*
> 
> Would you recommend the G400 over the G500? I can afford the G500. If there is a special reason to avoid the G500 I'd like to know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although the G500 costs the same as some Razers, Roccat, etc worldwide, stores here charges an extra for them, resulting in a premium price tag just because it's an "elite gamer" brand lol.


G500 works very bad cloth pads and has 8% inconsistent positive/negative acceleration.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gacrux*
> 
> Would you recommend the G400 over the G500? I can afford the G500. If there is a special reason to avoid the G500 I'd like to know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although the G500 costs the same as some Razers, Roccat, etc worldwide, stores here charges an extra for them, resulting in a premium price tag just because it's an "elite gamer" brand lol.


The G500's sensor has an acceleration curve on it that's nonlinear. If you don't need more than 3500 DPI, the G400 is a lot cheaper and a great mouse.


----------



## Skylit

On a technical note, a cmos sensor that scales completely linearly does not exist.

It will always be above and below a set path, granted 9500's variance is much much larger, or rather perceivable.


----------



## Gacrux

After a lot research, I have two options:

- Roccat Savu
- Logitech G400

They cost about the same around here. Roccat Pure is not an option (although I'd love to buy one) because here costs 2.5x more than the Savu









I liked the DPI buttons from the Logitech, but Roccat looks a lot more awesome (is there a way to change DPI on the fly with the Roccat?).

I'd like to know your opinions on which one is better for FPS. Forget about the money, prices here are totally different from the rest of the world lol, like I said, both cost about the same around here.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gacrux*
> 
> After a lot research, I have two options:
> 
> - Roccat Savu
> - Logitech G400
> 
> They cost about the same around here. Roccat Pure is not an option (although I'd love to buy one) because here costs 2.5x more than the Savu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I liked the DPI buttons from the Logitech, but Roccat looks a lot more awesome (is there a way to change DPI on the fly with the Roccat?).
> 
> I'd like to know your opinions on which one is better for FPS. Forget about the money, prices here are totally different from the rest of the world lol, like I said, both cost about the same around here.


Logitech tends to be really good for a palm grip and somewhat uncomfortable for any other kind of grip. You can sort of claw it, but the ridge in the side is annoying. It is by far the best mouse I have ever found for palm grip, apart from the intellimouse explorer 1.0.

The DPI buttons are annoying as hell. When you're gaming, there aren't that many situations where you will want to play around with the DPI, and you just end up hitting the DPI button by accident at the worst times sometimes.

The Logitech's cable is absolutely horrendous.

IMO, it's really down to how comfortable they both are and what type of grip you do.


----------



## ababa

Who knows "Commatech M1" (fkmini) - angle snapping off ?


----------



## OCmember

Does the 2010 built Microsoft Sidewinder X3 still use the same sensor as in the 2007 version? (the A6010, as stated in the begining of this thread)

EDIT: NM, I just read the backup X3 mouse I just bought is also a 2007, July 24th made mouse too.


----------



## jayfkay

the Epicgear Cyclops is another contestor of the 3090-fraction, and one to be reckoned with. should definitely be added to the list.

It fits like a glove with a mix of rubber and gloss, special rest for the ring finger (genious), is driverless like the Zowies, has 4 good DPI steps (if you can tell me how to get Enotus to work I can make tests, PM me), good mouse feet, a cable covered in cloth protection, fancy lights.. WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT?








only the sidebuttons are harder to reach than on, say, the g400.


----------



## OCmember

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> the Epicgear Cyclops is another contestor of the 3090-fraction, and one to be reckoned with. should definitely be added to the list.
> 
> It fits like a glove with a mix of rubber and gloss, special rest for the ring finger (genious), is driverless like the Zowies, has 4 good DPI steps (if you can tell me how to get Enotus to work I can make tests, PM me), good mouse feet, a cable covered in cloth protection, fancy lights.. WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only the sidebuttons are harder to reach than on, say, the g400.


That looks like the perfect mouse for me. Can't find it in stock in the US anywhere, though.

Dang!


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> the Epicgear Cyclops is another contestor of the 3090-fraction, and one to be reckoned with. should definitely be added to the list.
> 
> It fits like a glove with a mix of rubber and gloss, special rest for the ring finger (genious), is driverless like the Zowies, has 4 good DPI steps (if you can tell me how to get Enotus to work I can make tests, PM me), good mouse feet, a cable covered in cloth protection, fancy lights.. WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only the sidebuttons are harder to reach than on, say, the g400.


I'd be interested in Enotus tests for this! Will PM when I'm on PC again, am on phone now.


----------



## jayfkay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OCmember*
> 
> That looks like the perfect mouse for me. Can't find it in stock in the US anywhere, though.
> 
> Dang!


its about the same size as an mx518. and its pretty decent actually. you might wanna import it then. only newegg sells it.. seems they only bought like 1 batch of maybe a 100 mice.
but I dont see any flaws in this mouse atm. its pretty much a better version of any of zowies mice for palmgrippers. the button design reminds me of the deathadder as well in terms of clickyness, only that it feels a bit lighter even.
and as I said, willing to do enotus if someone explaisn to me how it works. it never does for me.
this mouse, like the Epicgear blade with 3050, has no lights on the bottom. Thus I assume its infrared. the 3050 seems to not be capable of tracking on black cloth pads with that, this one however does effortlessly.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> the Epicgear Cyclops is another contestor of the 3090-fraction, and one to be reckoned with. should definitely be added to the list.
> 
> It fits like a glove with a mix of rubber and gloss, special rest for the ring finger (genious), is driverless like the Zowies, has 4 good DPI steps (if you can tell me how to get Enotus to work I can make tests, PM me), good mouse feet, a cable covered in cloth protection, fancy lights.. WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only the sidebuttons are harder to reach than on, say, the g400.


How rigid is the cable? My preference would be something like the MX518.


----------



## Skylit

Should be fairly thick.


----------



## jayfkay

cable is flexible and solid. dont think this could break anytime soon. here are some pictures. the cyclops is not on there - but in case you care, first of all its completely black - no orange bottom like the others, and secondly it has the same shape as the meduza, on the left in these pictures.

http://www.eteknix.com/computex-epic-gear-gaming-peripherals-on-display/

and its estimatedly 5mm shorter than the g400, other than that its pretty damn similar. would describe it as a mix of deathadder and mx518. sensor similar to DA (no LED), rubber and gloss same as DA, buttons like DA (shape very similar, also slightly curved, but better - no holes like DA), comfort and ring-finger rest and overall grip like mx518. definitely deserves good attention. i must sound like i work for them ^^ but im just amazed cuz its the first mouse in some time that does a lot of things right and you can see some people got inspirated by popular mice and wanted to improve them.


----------



## jayfkay

enotus mouse test results:
at 400 dpi (sniper button): ~ 3 m/s (hz stay around 700, all others are 1000)
at 800 dpi: max speed ~3.2 m/s
at 1600 dpi: ~3.6 m/s
at 3200 dpi: above 2.6 m/s.
at 4000 dpi: same

high dpi is hard to measure cuz as soon as I hit the screen border (1920x1080) the m/s just goes up (and stacks up). I didnt hit the border for 800 and 1600 and im sure I didnt for 3200 and 4000, however its impossible for me to accelerate more on the desktop with such high dpi without hitting the borders.

the 800 dpi step, however, is actually more like 600 dpi.
so your steps are 400, 600, 1600, 3200, 4000.

this mouse probably works best on 1600 dpi.


----------



## senna89

Razer Naga 2014 which sensor use ?


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> enotus mouse test results:
> at 400 dpi (sniper button): ~ 3 m/s (hz stay around 700, all others are 1000)
> at 800 dpi: max speed ~3.2 m/s
> at 1600 dpi: ~3.6 m/s
> at 3200 dpi: above 2.6 m/s.
> at 4000 dpi: same
> 
> high dpi is hard to measure cuz as soon as I hit the screen border (1920x1080) the m/s just goes up (and stacks up). I didnt hit the border for 800 and 1600 and im sure I didnt for 3200 and 4000, however its impossible for me to accelerate more on the desktop with such high dpi without hitting the borders.
> 
> the 800 dpi step, however, is actually more like 600 dpi.
> so your steps are 400, 600, 1600, 3200, 4000.
> 
> this mouse probably works best on 1600 dpi.


That's unfortunate. The only reason I switched back to the Logitech G400 was because it had an amazing tracking speed.

Does it malfunction around 3 metres per second, or does it just stay at its max speed, like a WMO.


----------



## jayfkay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> That's unfortunate. The only reason I switched back to the Logitech G400 was because it had an amazing tracking speed.
> 
> Does it malfunction around 3 metres per second, or does it just stay at its max speed, like a WMO.


what do you mean thats unfortunate? those are pretty decent results imo. g400's results arent better.
I moved, according to enotus, the mouse at sometimes up to 4m/s (never do so in a match ^^), and didnt notice malfunction at all. and these are just enotus results after all. COULD be that the max speed is even higher. Never noticed neg accel or anything, and mousemovementrecorder didnt show any, even when jerking the mouse around like a ******* psychopath at max speed.
so I would say its pretty much like the g400 in that regard, only with different dpi.
works for me np. 36cm/360.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> what do you mean thats unfortunate? those are pretty decent results imo. g400's results arent better.
> I moved, according to enotus, the mouse at sometimes up to 4m/s (never do so in a match ^^), and didnt notice malfunction at all. and these are just enotus results after all. COULD be that the max speed is even higher. Never noticed neg accel or anything, and mousemovementrecorder didnt show any, even when jerking the mouse around like a ******* psychopath at max speed.


I seem to be able to get about 3.8-4.2 metres per second normally with my G400 and I can sometimes get 4.5-4.7 metres per second (not sure how legit that is). From my understanding, Enotus just read what the maximum speed recorded by the mouse was, so the G400 and Deathadder could be experiencing some kind of acceleration, but both of them can almost always reach 3.8 metres per second for me.

I guess I would not really notice a 3 metres per second max tracking speed, if it didn't malfunction at that point.


----------



## jayfkay

I could also reach 8 m/s, but as I said, if you touch the borders of your screen (which is more likely to happen the faster you move your mouse), it will stack up. just like that. Keeping that in mind I compared both Cyclops and g400 and they both scored around 3-3.5 m/s.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> I could also reach 8 m/s, but as I said, if you touch the borders of your screen (which is more likely to happen the faster you move your mouse), it will stack up. just like that. Keeping that in mind I compared both Cyclops and g400 and they both scored around 3-3.5 m/s.


Weird. I suppose it's probably dependent on the mouse pad, in addition to Enotus not being all that great in the first place.


----------



## jayfkay

is there such a huge difference between 3.5 and 4 m/s? :/
and for all I know it could just be my physical limitations. 4 m/s is kinda fast. I cant go above what I measured which is roughly 3.5.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> is there such a huge difference between 3.5 and 4 m/s? :/
> and for all I know it could just be my physical limitations. 4 m/s is kinda fast. I cant go above what I measured which is roughly 3.5.


Well, 3.5 would be fine for me. I just wonder why there is the difference in results between us.

My worry about the 3 metres per second tracking was from my Zowie AM which malfunctions at about 3 metres per second, and it really pisses me off. I really wish Zowie would stop doing stupid things to their mice.


----------



## Maximus Knight

CM Storm Spawn anyone? Love it with the low LOD


----------



## sandywind

I opened a very low end Trust mouse for maintenance and found what appears to be a laser A7050 sensor. Old sensor, according to the Avago datasheet. Does anyone know this sensor or can anyone interpret the datasheet (found with Google) to get an idea of its features? All I know is it's basically a 800DPI sensor.


----------



## Injury

What's the better sensor, Avago ADNS 3310 or S9888/S8888?


----------



## zerouse7en

*woll3*, please update information about TT eSPORT Black, ThermalTake upgraded its sensor to Avago 9500, this newer version has "DTA" in the end of serial number.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zerouse7en*
> 
> *woll3*, please update information about TT eSPORT Black, ThermalTake upgraded its sensor to Avago 9500, this newer version has "DTA" in the end of serial number.


Interesting, any Pics of it?


----------



## zerouse7en

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Interesting, any Pics of it?


I don't have its PCB picture but it's written on its box "Powered by Avago 4000 DPI laser engine":


And according to a review (in Vietnamese) of this new version of Black, the writer confirmed that it has a *Avago ADNS-9500* sensor and stated:
"...
- Avago laser sensor works flawlessly, stable tracking, no loss nor lag.
- LOD 1.5mm
- There is no auto-correction nor acceleration."


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zerouse7en*
> 
> I don't have its PCB picture but it's written on its box "Powered by Avago 4000 DPI laser engine":


Its enough to see the Lense like in this Pic.



Well it certainly is A9500, but some things on tt´s end arent understandable...

Edit: I hope i dont get trouble for bashing Tt. :O


----------



## zerouse7en

Zalman have just released a new gaming mouse, Zalman Eclipse ZM-GM3, which has an 8200DPI Avago A9800:


----------



## Arizonian

Hi guys,

We've got an nominations thread going on in the › Overclock.net Related News and Information sections. Please feel free to go and vote your favorites.

*[Nominations] The Most Helpful People on OC.net*


----------



## Failuyr

Excuse my misunderstanding, but what is that actual difference between "optical laser" and "doppler shift" sensors?


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Failuyr*
> 
> Excuse my misunderstanding, but what is that actual difference between "optical laser" and "doppler shift" sensors?


2 totally different technologies:

Optical Laser means that a little camera takes pictures of the surfaces which is illuminated by a laser and compares them to determine the tracking. It's the same principal as a "normal" optical sensor, you just use a laser instead of a LED to illuminate the surface.

The Philips Twin Eye uses the doppler effect and detects the different wavelength of the reflected laser beam.

http://www.lasersensors.philips.com/Technology/Philips_Laser_Doppler_Technology.php


----------



## Failuyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*
> 
> 2 totally different technologies:
> 
> Optical Laser means that a little camera takes pictures of the surfaces which is illuminated by a laser and compares them to determine the tracking. It's the same principal as a "normal" optical sensor, you just use a laser instead of a LED to illuminate the surface.
> 
> The Philips Twin Eye uses the doppler effect and detects the different wavelength of the reflected laser beam.
> 
> http://www.lasersensors.philips.com/Technology/Philips_Laser_Doppler_Technology.php


Thanks, +rep


----------



## sjworne

Can anyone talk me through the ADNS 3060 sensor?
Any +/- acceleration?
Angle snapping?
Prediction?

Also, is prediction bad? and angle snapping?

Sorry, if this is all answered elsewhere.. I didn't have time for all 88 pages... lol


----------



## kurtextrem

http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/content/fireglider-optical So which sensor is this? (This is a different version of the Fireglider!)


----------



## grahad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kurtextrem*
> 
> http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/content/fireglider-optical So which sensor is this? (This is a different version of the Fireglider!)


Doesn't the site label it? "PixArt PAW3305"


----------



## kurtextrem

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grahad*
> 
> Doesn't the site label it? "PixArt PAW3305"


Oh well my bad, lol
Thanks


----------



## kurtextrem

Sorry for the double post, but do you know how well the sensor is? (compared to let's say the deathadder 2013)


----------



## Kand

PixArt PAW3305?

It's horrible for starters.

I have two of the same mice, exact make and model.

One uses an ADNS 3060, no logner in production. The other, newer production has a PAW3305.

Huge inconsistency in acceleration with the PAW3305 than the 3060. It's easy to notice when the newer mouse isn't as precise as the older. Stay away from any mouse using that sensor.

About the 3060, it's close to the 3090 but no cigar. Good accel and stable, but still, not as precise as the 3090.

Update the list. All A4tech mice with the V-Track hole use Pixart PAW3305 sensors which are absolutely horrid to use. :I


----------



## Ufasas

Went 5.5 m/s with krait 4G, don't know if this possible at all with any hand. and mouse is simply amazing, prolly like FK. Does other krait4g owners feel smoothing? If its there even with it its complete ownage in fps games like cs go and e+ mod of q3 for me


----------



## paers

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Went 5.5 m/s with krait 4G, don't know if this possible at all with any hand. and mouse is simply amazing, prolly like FK. Does other krait4g owners feel smoothing? If its there even with it its complete ownage in fps games like cs go and e+ mod of q3 for me


If you mean the 2013 model, yes, it's the laggiest feeling mouse I have ever tried. A prime example of otherwise solid mouse ruined by the DPI obsession.


----------



## zerouse7en

Roccat Kone Pure Military with PMW3310H ? Wow, this is the first time I see this interesting information







can't wait for this mouse


----------



## nlmiller0015

I heard there making a roocat XTD optical with 6400 dpi if they do i cant wait the xtd was very comfortable in my opion


----------



## FreeElectron

Add the Logitech G502


Pixart PMW3366DM


----------



## woll3

You should look again, maybe this time in the right section.


----------



## rag21

Is this list accurate?? http://ultimaterobotics.com.ua/en/2013/11/02/optical-mouse-sensor-list/


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rag21*
> 
> Is this list accurate?? http://ultimaterobotics.com.ua/en/2013/11/02/optical-mouse-sensor-list/


Not as complete as our list but looks accurate.


----------



## rag21

on your list does not A4Tech X-738K Avago ADNS-A3080, Logitech RX250 Avago ADNS-A5020E and some models
I do not know exactly how many of Logitech RX250 ? as well as other models?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rag21*
> 
> on your list does not A4Tech X-738K Avago ADNS-A3080, Logitech RX250 Avago ADNS-A5020E and some models
> I do not know exactly how many of Logitech RX250 ? as well as other models?


If i would list all A4tech´s and their revisions and Gen.2´s and whatever, i would get old.









RX250 and similar are not on the list because they are office mice, conflicts with the thread title, and who would use it anyway considering that G100s is out there.


----------



## rag21

Is it a good sensor on the Logitech RX250 (Avago ADNS-A5020E) ??
Compared to MLT04??


----------



## TK421

Bloody has more series

V2 / V2-1 (different mouse shell color) - V4 - V8 -> 3305DK (1x size optic)

Also R3 - R5 - R7 - R8 -> wireless 3305DK (500Hz max)

TL8 Terminator / ZL5 Sniper / ML16 Commander / WL5 Winner / TL9 -> (dualmore, wireless = max 500Hz) -> A9800

RT5 Wireless -> A3050 (500Hz max)

F9 -> 3050DK

F6 (?)


----------



## the1freeMan

Seems like the x-748k got a rev2 as well, same dpi steps as the new x-718bk with 3305DK and same "shell based tape-fix".



old version below


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Seems like the x-748k got a rev2 as well, same dpi steps as the new x-718bk with 3305DK and same "shell based tape-fix".
> 
> 
> 
> old version below


This is A3090 sensor?


----------



## TK421

Anker 8000 - ADNS 9800 with 8000DPi max SROM

Anker 8200 - same sensor with 8200DPi max SROM

Anker 8000 internals


----------



## SyahmiX

does anyone know what sensor does this razer deathadder 1800 cpi of mine use? it's not the old 3g version but a rather recent one with synapse 2.0 setup file preloaded into the mouse.

model number RZ01-0085, maximum cpi of 1800, and based on quick googling it seems to be a Korean version. not quite sure though.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SyahmiX*
> 
> does anyone know what sensor does this razer deathadder 1800 cpi of mine use? it's not the old 3g version but a rather recent one with synapse 2.0 setup file preloaded into the mouse.
> 
> model number RZ01-0085, maximum cpi of 1800, and based on quick googling it seems to be a Korean version. not quite sure though.


Sounds like the PCBang edition which supposedly uses S3668. Has different hardware/firmware than original DA 3G though so it doesn't perform as well.


----------



## SyahmiX

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *SyahmiX*
> 
> does anyone know what sensor does this razer deathadder 1800 cpi of mine use? it's not the old 3g version but a rather recent one with synapse 2.0 setup file preloaded into the mouse.
> 
> model number RZ01-0085, maximum cpi of 1800, and based on quick googling it seems to be a Korean version. not quite sure though.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like the PCBang edition which supposedly uses S3668. Has different hardware/firmware than original DA 3G though so it doesn't perform as well.
Click to expand...

yup a pc bang edition it is. thanks! not much info about this edition on the internet though, other than there was an overclock.net member reporting that its maximum tracking speed could only go < 1.5m/s.


----------



## rlywhocares

first post of this topic would be an ultimate post for choosing mouse if the table had dimensions for each mouse. sad it doesn't have'em


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlywhocares*
> 
> first post of this topic would be an ultimate post for choosing mouse if the table had dimensions for each mouse. sad it doesn't have'em


----------



## rlywhocares

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*


i've seen this, thx, but very few from the market are in this chart. mostly old models are here. for example, i'm interested in mice for small hands (not more than 10 cm long, not more than 6cm wide, like pyra, mico or salmosa pge from this chart), but with very good, precide & proper sensor like A9500 or A9800. dimensions row in first post table would make this ultimate post for choosing mouse


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlywhocares*
> 
> i've seen this, thx, but very few from the market are in this chart. mostly old models are here. for example, i'm interested in mice for small hands (not more than 10 cm long, not more than 6cm wide, like pyra, mico or salmosa pge from this chart), *but with very good, precide & proper sensor like A9500 or A9800*. dimensions row in first post table would make this ultimate post for choosing mouse


What?


----------



## rlywhocares

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> What?


you don't like these sensors, ok. what small hands gaming grade mouse with precise sensor can you recommend? i already own pyra wired & cm storm xornet


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlywhocares*
> 
> you don't like these sensors, ok. what small hands gaming grade mouse with precise sensor can you recommend? i already own pyra wired & cm storm xornet


Ask FoxWolf1, he specialises in small mice.

You should probably look into mice made for the asian market, like the Zealot or the Zealot Jr. by TeamScorpion.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlywhocares*
> 
> you don't like these sensors, ok. what small hands gaming grade mouse with precise sensor can you recommend? i already own pyra wired & cm storm xornet


I'd follow INO's recommendation. Not many people round here work with super small mice. I just haven't seen anyone request ADNS9x00 sensors as precise and proper...


----------



## rlywhocares

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Ask FoxWolf1, he specialises in small mice.
> 
> You should probably look into mice made for the asian market, like the Zealot or the Zealot Jr. by TeamScorpion.


these are 3 proper advices in one comment. thanks )

update: if i get it right, zealot has A9500 sensor, which what i was looking for in small size body. & zealot jr. has A3090 sensor. you say A9500 is bad & A3090 is good. that's a dilemma







which 1 should i pick?

why you say A9500 is not soo good & why A3090 is better?


----------



## L4dd

The 9500 sensor has been tested to show its inconsistent acceleration, but the 3090 has very minimal acceleration and possibly about 4 m/s of perfect control speed with certain mice, so muscle memory could make use of the 3090 versus the 9500, and not all mice with the same sensor(s) track the same (PureTrak Valor for example).


----------



## FoxWolf1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlywhocares*
> 
> these are 3 proper advices in one comment. thanks )
> 
> update: if i get it right, zealot has A9500 sensor, which what i was looking for in small size body. & zealot jr. has A3090 sensor. you say A9500 is bad & A3090 is good. that's a dilemma
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which 1 should i pick?
> 
> why you say A9500 is not soo good & why A3090 is better?


I would say to take the Zealot Jr. over the full Zealot (I own both and use the Zealot Jr. as my main mouse). A3090 offers better tracking quality (no significant inconsistent acceleration) compared to A9500, though you do get a higher lift-off distance. Perfect control speed for the Zealot Jr. on the wood surface of my desk is 4.55m/s @ 800dpi/1000Hz. There are some advantages to the full Zealot-- a thumb button, more configurability, fancier lighting, some metal-effect trim, and little less weight-- but IMO the tracking of the A3090 is just so much better than the A9500 that I have to favor the Zealot Jr.

It's a shame there aren't more small mice with good sensors; most manufacturers, if they release a small mouse at all, step down to inferior sensors. I suppose that if you didn't want a TeamScorpion mouse, you could look at a Commatech fkmini v3, which also uses an A3090, but I can't find much information about the tracking quality or build quality on it.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> I'd follow INO's recommendation. Not many people round here work with super small mice. I just haven't seen anyone request ADNS9x00 sensors as precise and proper...


SS Xai with pre-release firmware doing 5040 dpi is very precise... although not consistent of course and we all know why


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FoxWolf1*
> 
> It's a shame there aren't more small mice with good sensors; most manufacturers, if they release a small mouse at all, step down to inferior sensors.


So true. I have big feet but for whatever reason I ended up with tiny hands (about 17cm) so it's really frustrating when nearly every half-way decent mouse released is 125mm length minimum. I understand I'm in the minority but there are still plenty of people with larger hands that would prefer smaller mice and companies ignore it.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlywhocares*
> 
> these are 3 proper advices in one comment. thanks )
> 
> update: if i get it right, zealot has A9500 sensor, which what i was looking for in small size body. & zealot jr. has A3090 sensor. you say A9500 is bad & A3090 is good. that's a dilemma
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which 1 should i pick?
> 
> why you say A9500 is not soo good & why A3090 is better?


Because some people believe that little accel. would affect their gameplay so much that they would suck even more. Good example: GeT_RiGhT owned everyone on Xai (9500), to name a known pro. I played with ESL amateuer and former EPS players. They used "weird" dpi settings and didn't know anything or just little about mice/sensors. They're good in the game and would play as good with almost every mouse/sensor as long as it's not broken and the shape is comfortable enough. Some people on ocn prefer to complain about certain things rather than play their games. Give them the perfect working mouse with absolutely no flaws and they would start to complain about colour/package/bla.


----------



## rlywhocares

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FoxWolf1*
> 
> Commatech fkmini v3.


can't find any info & specifically dimensions








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Because some people believe that little accel. would affect their gameplay so much that they would suck even more. Good example: GeT_RiGhT owned everyone on Xai (9500), to name a known pro. I played with ESL amateuer and former EPS players. They used "weird" dpi settings and didn't know anything or just little about mice/sensors. They're good in the game and would play as good with almost every mouse/sensor as long as it's not broken and the shape is comfortable enough. Some people on ocn prefer to complain about certain things rather than play their games. Give them the perfect working mouse with absolutely no flaws and they would start to complain about colour/package/bla.


to be honest, i started to look for A9500 based mice for same reason - just noticed what fantastic results some gamers made & looked up their setups & then started to ask myself what made that mice so good.... sensors? bingo. then just googled sensors list. that's how i've found this topic









second part of the truth opened to me when i actually bought sensei & it was simply too big for my hand & didn't feel comfortable. so i started to look for comfy-in-hand-sitting mouse with good sensor

didn't find zealot jr in my city







amazon doesn't ship any of its zealot jrs to my country. placed order at dx.com but feels like it's a dead end. they promise to ship 7-10 days after payment xD


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Because some people believe that little accel. would affect their gameplay so much that they would suck even more. Good example: GeT_RiGhT owned everyone on Xai (9500), to name a known pro. I played with ESL amateuer and former EPS players. They used "weird" dpi settings and didn't know anything or just little about mice/sensors. They're good in the game and would play as good with almost every mouse/sensor as long as it's not broken and the shape is comfortable enough. Some people on ocn prefer to complain about certain things rather than play their games. Give them the perfect working mouse with absolutely no flaws and they would start to complain about colour/package/bla.


lol although this is a blanket statement it's pretty true. At OCN we see all flaws, and make them known. But that doesn't mean we can't find a mouse that suits us, even though no mouse is perfect. Pros I don't think really care much at all.


----------



## CorruptBE

Sensei Raw/Xai accel is manageable in CS. It's quake were it really becomes a problem. Less pint point precision required (the 9500 is quite good at that imo, makes up for the accel, dunno about the 9800) but alot more fast flicking and consistency in flickshotting becomes much much more important then in CS.

A spazz out mid air rail flick with the accel on those mice for instance is... kind of tricky really imo.

Though part of the problem also arises from the fact that people assume there are no non pro players that can't have aim or reflexes on par with the top tier players.

I had a mix with KennyS from verygames back when CSGO was just released. What amazed me wasn't his aim... it was the amount of extra "tricks" he has up his sleeve.

Playing at that level aim is a necessity, there's other stuff that will make people really shine. Take Get_Right's cunning play with smokes for instance, "let's just sit in it and let the enemy run past me".

We always discuss aim, but there's more then just aim and alot of people assume to quickly that there's noone capable of doing with their hands aim wise what the pro's can.

It's the total package that makes them pro and also perhaps the odds of having had great mates in the past they could stick with and play for a long time to ensure great team play.


----------



## dmasteR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Sensei Raw/Xai accel is manageable in CS. It's quake were it really becomes a problem. Less pint point precision required (the 9500 is quite good at that imo, makes up for the accel, dunno about the 9800) but alot more fast flicking and consistency in flickshotting becomes much much more important then in CS.
> 
> A spazz out mid air rail flick with the accel on those mice for instance is... kind of tricky really imo.
> 
> Though part of the problem also arises from the fact that people assume there are no non pro players that can't have aim or reflexes on par with the top tier players.
> 
> I had a mix with KennyS from verygames back when CSGO was just released. What amazed me wasn't his aim... it was the amount of extra "tricks" he has up his sleeve.
> 
> Playing at that level aim is a necessity, there's other stuff that will make people really shine. Take Get_Right's cunning play with smokes for instance, "let's just sit in it and let the enemy run past me".
> 
> We always discuss aim, but there's more then just aim and alot of people assume to quickly that there's noone capable of doing with their hands aim wise what the pro's can.
> 
> It's the total package that makes them pro and also perhaps the odds of having had great mates in the past they could stick with and play for a long time to ensure great team play.


I'd say Get_right is more known for his spray control than sneaky play.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dmasteR*
> 
> I'd say Get_right is more known for his spray control than sneaky play.


Get_right just plays... derp in a good way lol.


----------



## uNfEiL

Why do they use laser mouse for FPS games? Like Get_Right - SS Xai or Fnatic team - SS Sensei (Fnatic version). Isn't optical mouse more precise?


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Why do they use laser mouse for FPS games? Like Get_Right - SS Xai or Fnatic team - SS Sensei (Fnatic version). Isn't optical mouse more precise?


Size, shape, weight, sponsorship, ignorance. Any or all of the above.


----------



## Necroblob

You can learn to play with pretty much anything. Lots of great players use the Microsoft mice at 125hz with 1m/s perfect control speed. Others use the MX518 with prediction. The only thing that really isn't acceptable is a low malfunction speed, but that isn't a significant problem for most modern sensors. That's not to say that you wouldn't benefit from a better mouse, but there comes a point in games like CSGO where teamplay and map knowledge play a greater role.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Necroblob*
> 
> You can learn to play with pretty much anything. Lots of great players use the Microsoft mice at 125hz with 1m/s perfect control speed. Others use the MX518 with prediction. The only thing that really isn't acceptable is a low malfunction speed, but that isn't a significant problem for most modern sensors. That's not to say that you wouldn't benefit from a better mouse, but there comes a point in games like CSGO where teamplay and map knowledge play a greater role.


OC it to 500hz, the mlt04 has a higher maxspeed that way


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> OC it to 500hz, the mlt04 has a higher maxspeed that way


Contrary to sensors in logitech mice, mlt04 can hold 1000Hz stable. PCS should be the same, haven't tried 500 in the mlt tbh.

@Necroblob

Try a 125Hz mouse on a 250fps game...


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Contrary to sensors in logitech mice, mlt04 can hold 1000Hz stable. PCS should be the same, haven't tried 500 in the mlt tbh.
> 
> @Necroblob
> 
> Try a 125Hz mouse on a 250fps game...


So I can use 1000hz polling with stable result in MLT04 mouse?


----------



## hza

Go MLT04 or go home!


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Go MLT04 or go home!


can it run 1000hz stable?


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> can it run 1000hz stable?


Dude seriously?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Contrary to sensors in logitech mice, *mlt04 can hold 1000Hz stable*...


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> OC it to 500hz, the mlt04 has a higher maxspeed that way


I have a friend who use a 3.0 on 125Hz, just because the motherboard doesn't let him oc it. 1.6 sensitivity with 1m/s PCS... And he have been Global Elite, currently SMFC on CS:GO. Don't ask me how he does it.


----------



## metal571

Yeah very player style and game dependent.

The only thing that wasn't mentioned about pros using Senseis in competition is sponsorship. That's another reason.


----------



## uNfEiL

I saw some famous players (e.g. Fnatic team) using SteelSeries Sensei Raw mouse.

And to compare it to Kana v2 it is quite similar, only sensor differs and I really like that mouse. And there are a lot of satisfied users of it, like I said the entire Fnatic team uses it. Although the sensor is laser, nobody ever complained about it and nobody ever had problems with it, like the sensor may work flawlessly. I want to use 800 DPI and cloth mouse pad, do you think it will be alright with Sensei Raw or better go with Kana v2?

Kana v2 > Sensei Raw ?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Yeah very player style and game dependent.
> 
> The only thing that wasn't mentioned about pros using Senseis in competition is sponsorship. That's another reason.


That's not true at all... Here are the reasons that pros use the Sensei.

1.) It's a "Pro Grade Laser Mouse". It even says it on their website...
2.) 11400DPI... Because the more DPI's means 1337 performance
3.) BRAIDED cord. This reduces the drag coefficient of the cable, making aiming twice as fast
4.) 16.8M possible colors in three different zones. This actually increases the intimidation factor when going into a LAN. People see your pink, yellow, and green color scheme and think to themselves "THAT dude is confident..."
5.) LCD Display with custom tags. There's nothing more pro than fragging some nub face to face and turning the bottom of your mouse toward them and showing them the LCD screen with a "PWND" tag on it...
6.) It's shiny silver... Shiny silver is the color of metal, and that's metal.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> I saw some famous players (e.g. Fnatic team) using SteelSeries Sensei Raw mouse.
> 
> And to compare it to Kana v2 it is quite similar, only sensor differs and I really like that mouse. And there are a lot of satisfied users of it, like I said the entire Fnatic team uses it. Although the sensor is laser, nobody ever complained about it and nobody ever had problems with it, like the sensor may work flawlessly. I want to use 800 DPI and cloth mouse pad, do you think it will be alright with Sensei Raw or better go with Kana v2?
> 
> Kana v2 > Sensei Raw ?


Kana V2 for 800 DPI on cloth any day of the week...

The sensei is more comfortable to me to hold, however. I've said it time and time again. If SS put the Sensei out with the Rival's sensor, I'd buy 5.


----------



## metal571

LOL oh divine.


----------



## uNfEiL

Is the shape of Kana v2 and Sensei Raw different a lot?

It is not reccomended to use laser sensor on cloth mouse pad? For instance Sensei Raw on SteelSeries QCK (+).

3rd Q: Would I notice any issues with laser sensor on 800 DPI (also QCK mousepad) in games? Is the sensor of Sensei Raw a lot worse than on Kana v2?


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Is the shape of Kana v2 and Sensei Raw different a lot?
> 
> It is not reccomended to use laser sensor on cloth mouse pad? For instance Sensei Raw on SteelSeries QCK (+).
> 
> 3rd Q: Would I notice any issues with laser sensor on 800 DPI (also QCK mousepad) in games? Is the sensor of Sensei Raw a lot worse than on Kana v2?


The shape is the same except it's smaller. It's just that Kana got terrible side buttons which covers the whole side. (At least feels so when I try to grip it)


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> That's not true at all... Here are the reasons that pros use the Sensei.
> 
> 1.) It's a "Pro Grade Laser Mouse". It even says it on their website...
> 2.) 11400DPI... Because the more DPI's means 1337 performance
> 3.) BRAIDED cord. This reduces the drag coefficient of the cable, making aiming twice as fast
> 4.) 16.8M possible colors in three different zones. This actually increases the intimidation factor when going into a LAN. People see your pink, yellow, and green color scheme and think to themselves "THAT dude is confident..."
> 5.) LCD Display with custom tags. There's nothing more pro than fragging some nub face to face and turning the bottom of your mouse toward them and showing them the LCD screen with a "PWND" tag on it...
> 6.) It's shiny silver... Shiny silver is the color of metal, and that's metal.


Rofl that just made my day.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> can it run 1000hz stable?


Last time I checked was 2009 or so. Had "jumps" over 100 Hz when I moved circles, maybe even over 200 Hz, if I remember correctly.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> That's not true at all... Here are the reasons that pros use the Sensei.
> 
> 1.) It's a "Pro Grade Laser Mouse". It even says it on their website...
> 2.) 11400DPI... Because the more DPI's means 1337 performance
> 3.) BRAIDED cord. This reduces the drag coefficient of the cable, making aiming twice as fast
> 4.) 16.8M possible colors in three different zones. This actually increases the intimidation factor when going into a LAN. People see your pink, yellow, and green color scheme and think to themselves "THAT dude is confident..."
> 5.) LCD Display with custom tags. There's nothing more pro than fragging some nub face to face and turning the bottom of your mouse toward them and showing them the LCD screen with a "PWND" tag on it...
> 6.) It's shiny silver... Shiny silver is the color of metal, and that's metal.


You were funnier last time. Try harder!


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Last time I checked was 2009 or so. Had "jumps" over 100 Hz when I moved circles, maybe even over 200 Hz, if I remember correctly.
> You were funnier last time. Try harder!


You are dead inside...


----------



## hza

W/e... I stop feeding.


----------



## uNfEiL

Any statement to Sensei Raw? Would I notice any difference from optical sensor like a common user? Not from professional perspective. Playing non competitive Osu, League of Legends (rarely CS:GO). Haven't seen any unsatisfied Sensei Raw user. Or should I go better with Kana v2 because Optical >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laser? I repeat, the mouse pad will be SS QCK+. Thanks and sorry, I'm really confused and indecisive.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> The sensei is more comfortable to me to hold, however. I've said it time and time again. If SS put the Sensei out with the Rival's sensor, I'd buy 5.


If only they would listen to us. I'd buy it too!


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Any statement to Sensei Raw? Would I notice any difference from optical sensor like a common user? Not from professional perspective. Playing non competitive Osu, League of Legends (rarely CS:GO). Haven't seen any unsatisfied Sensei Raw user. Or should I go better with Kana v2 because Optical >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laser? I repeat, the mouse pad will be SS QCK+. Thanks and sorry, I'm really confused and indecisive.


Osu is quite demanding. You'll fail really hard on that game with a modern laser. Just don't touch the Sensei unless you are playing non competitive MMO or RTS. The Kana V2 last I heard was trash with default LOD but can be tape fixed. Unfortunately it's running the 4000 CPI 3090 SROM if I'm not mistaken, which has more latency than other 3090 SROMs.


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Osu is quite demanding. You'll fail really hard on that game with a modern laser. Just don't touch the Sensei unless you are playing non competitive MMO or RTS. The Kana V2 last I heard was trash with default LOD but can be tape fixed. Unfortunately it's running the 4000 CPI 3090 SROM if I'm not mistaken, which has more latency than other 3090 SROMs.


Thank you, so finally I'm kicking the Sensei Raw out from my list.

Yes I've heard that tape-trick fixes the Kana v2's high LOD so I dont see any problem here. I'm NOT gonna use full CPI potential. Will I see any latency even on 800 DPI?

I'm quite indecisive whether to buy Kana v2 or Alcor.







.

Only these 2 are available in our stores for quite decent price. Others like Kone Pure (Military), Avior/Naos 7000, Zowie AM/FK/EC1/EC2 are either expensive or not available and require order and I makes me to wait another 2 weeks for mouse. Or are there any other options for me? (I do not like Spawn/M45/G400). And Rival is too heavy imo.

Or should I sacrifice my money and wait for the Roccat Kone Pure Military and buy it once it will be available in my country? (does anybody know what is the approximate price in €? And release date in EU?)

Thanks for any advice.


----------



## metal571

Doesn't leave you with too many options honestly...you need dat KPM


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Or should I sacrifice my money and wait for the Roccat Kone Pure Military and buy it once it will be available in my country? (does anybody know what is the approximate price in €? And release date in EU?)
> 
> Thanks for any advice.


~ 70 Euro, should have been just released, at least in german stores. Don't know about your country though.


----------



## uNfEiL

Is it worth to pay ~ 70 Euro for a mouse? To me it is a huge amount of price. It is almost a double price to Kana v2 for instance. Like would I (amateur in mice) be EVER able to notice any difference between Kana v2 and Kone Pure Military in terms of sensor / tracking? (pretend there is not a problem with LOD because of tape-trick fix on Kana v2).

I know everybody says 3310 is better sensor than 3090 but what is the difference? Where can I see any difference? Why is 3310 so superior?(once again, not speaking about LOD and speaking about common, that means not profesional mouse user playing Osu, League of Legends with 800 DPI and cloth mouse pad).


----------



## hza

You would probably not notice a difference. I mean you call yourself "amateur in mice". Higher or lower LOD doesn't bother everyone the same way. Just because people believe they need LOD as low as possible doesn't mean you need it as well. 3310 is said to be superior because it has less smoothing implemented. The same thing here, it doesn't affect everyone the same way. I had an Kone Pure Optical (3090) and felt it was pretty precise, I didn't feel any delays or whatever people believe to feel that would destroy their gameplay so much. Basically that's the difference betweeen 3090 and 3310. However, I believe you won't notice anything, I don't think you're a hyper sensitive person. 70 Euro isn't cheap, but it's probably worth it because Roccat put efforts in their peripherals as much as they can. Kone Pure Optical had a great build quality feel, it was very comfortable, tracking felt very responsive and accurate and software was also very nice. Well, if the price really bothers you so much though, you should buy the cheaper mouse.


----------



## uNfEiL

And what about Avior 7000 compared to Kone Pure Military? The winner is KPM because of less weight? Actually I'm thinking about purchasing the Avior 7000 because many people recommend it the most.


----------



## metal571

And now there's yet another option, Zowie FK1


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> And now there's yet another option, Zowie FK1


Yeah exactly! My mind just did blown up. Avior 7000 / Kone Pure Military / FK1. Really dunno which way to go. I should just wait for the reviews of FK1/KPM.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Yeah exactly! My mind just did blown up. Avior 7000 / Kone Pure Military / FK1. Really dunno which way to go. I should just wait for the reviews of FK1/KPM.


----------



## rlywhocares

I've bought zealot jr. wanna thank this thread participants for a hint







only 2 days in test, getting used to it. for now it's best from what i've tried. what bothers me is that LOD is high. it's the first time when LOD is that high that it became uncomfortable & i remembered that there is a special term & shortening for such thing as "lift off distance"... wonder if that's all A3090 sensors issue or it's a characteristic property of this mouse?

& i'm still (& always!) interested in listing ALL gaming grade mice with dimensions near 100x60x40mm. will be glad to your hints, guys. i start thinking i'm gonna try 'em all


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlywhocares*
> 
> I've bought zealot jr. wanna thank this thread participants for a hint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only 2 days in test, getting used to it. for now it's best from what i've tried. what bothers me is that LOD is high. it's the first time when LOD is that high that it became uncomfortable & i remembered that there is a special term & shortening for such thing as "lift off distance"... wonder if that's all A3090 sensors issue or it's a characteristic property of this mouse?
> 
> & i'm still (& always!) interested in listing ALL gaming grade mice with dimensions near 100x60x40mm. will be glad to your hints, guys. i start thinking i'm gonna try 'em all


all 3090 have the issue

try v8 mouse from a4tech, 3305dk sensor. not a high pcs (1.9m/s) but very small/semi ambi design.


----------



## rlywhocares

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> all 3090 have the issue
> 
> try v8 mouse from a4tech, 3305dk sensor. not a high pcs (1.9m/s) but very small/semi ambi design.


really all A3090? •~•

thanks for a hint, but i already have pyra with 3305 sensor. even with the LOD issue, i find zealot's sensor much more precise & controllable than pyra's. from a4techs i very much like 710MK / 750MK size / shape / dimensions (they're the same). fits me perfectly.







i own it too (710MK), but sensor is not as good as size & shape


----------



## Ino.

LOD
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlywhocares*
> 
> really all A3090? •~•
> 
> thanks for a hint, but i already have pyra with 3305 sensor. even with the LOD issue, i find zealot's sensor much more precise & controllable than pyra's. from a4techs i very much like 710MK / 750MK size / shape / dimensions (they're the same). fits me perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i own it too (710MK), but sensor is not as good as size & shape


LOD can always be fixed by tape trick. Search on this site, there are some how-tos.


----------



## tastro

Hello,

i don't know if it's an error or maybe that the Logitech G100s use 2 different sensors, but i opened up my mouse and i have AM010 N1303T written on the sensor chip and not AM010 N1301T which is listed in the table in this post.

I removed the weights too. But the mouse is awesome. Had the MX510 before, then the scroll died and i tryed out g400 and deathadder, but didn't like none of them, then i tryed g100s and it fits perfect into my hands and the sensor is awesome. So i bought one. And i guess that i won't be looking for a new one until this one dies. I'm really satisfied with the mouse.

I was searching for a data sheet for the sensor, but couldn't find one.








I want to know what the sensors native DPI is. If anyone knows it, please let me know. Thanks!

Best regards,
Tastro


----------



## TK421

a4tech xl747h

A6010


----------



## MKUL7R4

Just got my Corsair gear in the mail today, and I have to say my first impressions of the M45 are amazing. This is my first PMW3310H and the tracking is absolutely perfect. Ergos are excellent as well.


----------



## tastro

When i open my WMO mouse, it says: Microsoft x01-03410-02 sensor on the chip. Is this the same as MLT04 ?


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tastro*
> 
> When i open my WMO mouse, it says: Microsoft x01-03410-02 sensor on the chip. Is this the same as MLT04 ?


In the bottom sticker, does the P/N say X809742?

X80 = 9000FPS MLT04
X08= 6000FPS MLT04

Source: http://www.overclock.net/t/1315132/microsoft-explorer-3-0-question


----------



## zerouse7en

SteelSeries The Sims 4 Laser Gaming Mouse uses Pixart ADNS-8020 laser sensor.

Source: Amazon


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zerouse7en*
> 
> SteelSeries The Sims 4 Laser Gaming Mouse uses Pixart ADNS-8020 laser sensor.
> 
> Source: Amazon


That's not worthy of being called a gaming mouse


----------



## hza

101


----------



## CeeSA

Which Sensor is inside the Microsoft Notebook Optical Mouse

The serial number starts promising with 'X80' on. I hope this is another MLT04.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CeeSA*
> 
> Which Sensor is inside the Microsoft Notebook Optical Mouse
> 
> The serial number starts promising with 'X80' on. I hope this is another MLT04.


Data sheet says "based on Agilent optical sensor" and 1500 FPS, so no MLT04 I guess.


----------



## FreeElectron

Any info about the sensors in the ROCCAT Tyon and the ROCCAT Kone XTD Optical ?


----------



## hza

Tyon 9800, XTD Optical 3988


----------



## TK421

A4Tech Bloody F9/A9

A3050


----------



## LewisASTL

This is a pic of mine xtd optical internal
I can't be sure on Roccat xtd optical sensor. As you can see, the DSP IC is soldered between two PCB. It is almost impossible to determine if we have a S3988.

From mousetester graph there is no similarities to PMW3310...From this point of view it's a 3988 indeed..or something similar.


----------



## ChevChelios

RoccatAndi confirmed it's a 3988


----------



## LewisASTL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> RoccatAndi confirmed it's a 3988


where please?
From a post i read something like "i guess..."
Thanks in advance


----------



## zerouse7en

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LewisASTL*
> 
> where please?
> From a post i read something like "i guess..."
> Thanks in advance


Here you are.


----------



## FreeElectron

Any info about the sensors in the
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zerouse7en*
> 
> Here you are.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RoccatAndi*
> 
> Probably Q3 2014.
> 
> No, the Kone XTD Optical will not come with the 3310. It is probably the S3988 but *i don't have the confirmation yet*, so for now it is only *an assumption* by me.


----------



## LewisASTL

it is the post i read some times ago.

it's an assumpion by him. i say, from the graph, it seems a 3988.

But it is, i cant be 99% sure. See the pic i posted.


----------



## ChevChelios

I asked him in PM
Quote:


> I can confirm that the Sensor in the Kone XTD Optical is an Avago S3988.


----------



## zerouse7en

This is upcoming Asus ROG Gladius:


Another mouse uses S3988?

On the other hand, Asus Strix Claw goes with PixArt PMW3310.


----------



## davidbag

Hi, I want to buy a new gaming mouse!
I am between Razer Ouroborous, Logitech G502, Cyborg RAT 9, Steelseries Sensei Wireless!

I don't know witch one has the better sensor and on overall better mouse!

Can you help me?

Thank You
David


----------



## Torongo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *davidbag*
> 
> Hi, I want to buy a new gaming mouse!
> I am between Razer Ouroborous, Logitech G502, Cyborg RAT 9, Steelseries Sensei Wireless!
> 
> I don't know witch one has the better sensor and on overall better mouse!
> 
> Can you help me?
> 
> Thank You
> David


I would go with Logitech G502.
And yeah, we have [Official] The Mouse Suggestion Thread here.


----------



## davidbag

Thank you Totongo for your help!
I am new here at the forum!
But why the G502? or have you another preferences? I've used for exemple, the Naga 2014 version, and Logitech G700, but they stopped working without any reasons! my type is more Palm, than the others, but i've used already other type of mouse!
I dont know if the sensor of the other models are good, since I had a friend that some time ago bought the Ouroboros and return because the sensor moves alone or stay fixes for seconds...

I was interested by the new Roccat, since I never had a Roccat, the Tyon, but I use also Mac & PC, and on Mac it does not work!

I found out the Deathadder 2013, or the Chroma model? are ypu continue to prefer the G502?

Like you see I am really really undecided buy witch one I should buy.


----------



## metal571

There's a lot more we need to know though, especially what kind of games you play


----------



## davidbag

Medal Of Honor, CS, Settlers, civilization, need for speed, rally games...

Normally strategic games, FPS, and simulator games...

I need to decide it because I need to pass at the store to do the exchange as soon as possible!

thank you









There, they just have, the Ouroborous, RAT 9, Deathadder 2013, and Logitech G502, G700s... But maybe the Logitech is the most preferable arround the web right?


----------



## metal571

Get rid of everything in that list except the DA and 502. There are more out there though for palm. Usually we recommend the Rival, Naos 7000, or DA 2013/Chroma for palm. The former having awful warranty support but a big shape for palm, the Naos having good support and good build quality but might be a little tough to pick up and reposition often, and the last having poor build quality and mediocre support. All of those sensors are fine. The 502 is more of a claw mouse and has the best sensor of everything you listed and has awesome warranty support. It's heavy though, starting at 120g.


----------



## davidbag

And what about Logitech? Logitech G502?
I just have afraid that the G502 do not work for me...I have 18cm long 8,5cm wide.

I already know that is one of I should choose and probably it will be that one!
Probably tomorrow!


----------



## davidbag

And I would like one advise for more or less the same thing but a wireless model!

Probably I will buy latter one wireless model! any advise?

Thank You


----------



## LzbeL

guys, which Razer DeathAdder has the best sensor for FPS games?


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LzbeL*
> 
> guys, which Razer DeathAdder has the best sensor for FPS games?


3G > 3.5G > 4G (2013, Chroma)


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> 3G>3.5G>4G (2013, Chroma)


As silly as it sounds...

It's true









(Actually no, it's not silly, it's a sad state of affairs)


----------



## ronal

I miss my DA 3G, too bad I killed mine when attempting the Kinzuadder Mod. For me the sensor was the 2nd best ever made after the MLT04 obviously.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> I miss my DA 3G, too bad I killed mine when attempting the Kinzuadder Mod. For me the sensor was the 2nd best ever made after the MLT04 obviously.


I consider it better since it doesn't malfunction as fast.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> 3G > 3.5G > 4G (2013, Chroma)


Where does the Black Edition stand?


----------



## DivineDark

The black edition is a 3.5g. Different coating and no lighting. Same sensor.


----------



## treach

Whats inside the RAT TE? I read its improved pln but nothing specific..


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treach*
> 
> Whats inside the RAT TE? I read its improved pln but nothing specific..


I heard its a version of the Phillips without the z-axis issues and such


----------



## LzbeL

Is not possible buy now DA 3G version?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> I heard its a version of the Phillips without the z-axis issues and such


I read a review stating it as having a max PCS of 3 m/s, IIRC, and I would hope that no added tracking algorithm would be used to "fix" the Z-axis.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> I heard its a version of the Phillips without the z-axis issues and such


Not the case. It still has every single flaw of every other PTE mouse. They've minimized the effect, but the z-axis and hyper sensitivity are all still there.

And the TE's sensor has a terrible PCS. More Philips junk.


----------



## metal571

Hey now, it's not Philips' fault, you said it yourself


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LzbeL*
> 
> Is not possible buy now DA 3G version?


If you're lucky you might find one on ebay.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> I miss my DA 3G, too bad I killed mine when attempting the Kinzuadder Mod. For me the sensor was the 2nd best ever made after the MLT04 obviously.


Most of that is just fond memories I guess, I recently used my DA 3G again to try it and it was certainly not better than the FK1 for me. I mainly tried it for the button latency thing and even there I did better with the FK1 consistently (by around 20 ms).


----------



## Ufasas

woa, cougar 200m optical 3050 sensor mouse, looks like they have some solid product, 125mhz rate and no 3090 sensor worries, but this is 22 pounds in uk! my 35quid abyssus has 3 buttons only whereas this one with 5, woa : @ well abyssus sensor is superrior


----------



## kirywka

Razer Krait 2013
it's the best sensor i ever tried


----------



## thizito

Lol u should try more sensors, krait is terrible smoothing. Da 3g and my salmosa feels way better. I have 20 mices and krait is trash for me. Also shape is annoying and i ll cut right side haha


----------



## kirywka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Lol u should try more sensors, krait is terrible smoothing. Da 3g and my salmosa feels way better. I have 20 mices and krait is trash for me. Also shape is annoying and i ll cut right side haha


oh i've tried avago 3060 3080 3090 , s3888 , mlt04 , pixart 3305 and avago 9500 lazer. and ect in pop mice except the philips twin eye

the first reason i use krait it is a shape. this mouse is not fat like abyssus 2014 or kinzu.it's very comfort to hold and control it
the next position is sensor everything is good.lift off distans , control speed , no accel and prediction. a played abyssus 3g long time ago , and the sensor feels almost the same

what smoothing you are talking about ? how it harms my gamming ? plz explain


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kirywka*
> 
> what smoothing you are talking about ? how it harms my gamming ? plz explain


In very simple terms, it is sacrificing responsiveness for a better cursorpath, "success" with that feature differs from individual to individual.


----------



## thizito

well both new abyssus and krait was a downgrade in my feelings in 3311 fk1 i used before and my actual mice salmosa pro
i bought and keep those in a box.. just wanted to test... unfortunatelly even old abyssus is better than both


----------



## woll3

We shouldnt forget that DA2013 got an FW Update recently, same might be true for the Krait 2013, i dont have any specifics but i suspect that the smoothing was toned down to 3310 level.


----------



## kirywka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> In very simple terms, it is sacrificing responsiveness for a better cursorpath, "success" with that feature differs from individual to individual.


it means in krait there is some latency in cursor moving ?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kirywka*
> 
> it means in krait there is some latency in cursor moving ?


Yes


----------



## thizito

i think my krait became updated, my abyssus firmware updated too
because synapse no updates to install

and of corse i tested without synapse out of the box


----------



## kirywka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> i think my krait became updated, my abyssus firmware updated too
> because synapse no updates to install
> 
> and of corse i tested without synapse out of the box


to a pitty there is no alternative good small mice with such perfect sensor


----------



## thizito

all these years and nothing perfect.. always there is a problem..
anyway good options is always: wmo,g100s,salmosa's,old abyssus,zowie fk1.. all of them can buy today and have no noticiable smoothing


----------



## kirywka

wmo is big , g100s low malfunction , salmosa old abyssus - very high LOD ( and also un selectable 500 hz and no dpi steps only 3 ) , fk1 is not a small mouse . a would better play with krait 13 and smoothing that makes no terrible for me.


----------



## hza

Didn't try Logitech G302 yet, but it's a small mouse. Just sayin'.


----------



## vinzbe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kirywka*
> 
> wmo is big , g100s low malfunction , salmosa old abyssus - very high LOD ( and also un selectable 500 hz and no dpi steps only 3 ) , fk1 is not a small mouse . a would better play with krait 13 and smoothing that makes no terrible for me.


Salmosa HAS 500hz and 2 dpi steps (800 and 1800).


----------



## thizito

if not win8, im win7 using stable 1000hz on wmo and salmosa.. abyssus/salmosa = tape fix


----------



## Redeemer

I have been through many over the years, however I still find the Razer Deathadder to be the best over all mouse


----------



## kirywka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vinzbe*
> 
> Salmosa HAS 500hz and 2 dpi steps (800 and 1800).


or sorry and also drift control on







and what about g302. i was watching this mouse with great interest. the sensor in this mouse is a riddle for me.it seems to be good instead of control speed - max 3 m/s and LOD. there is a problem novadays to choose a mouse is you have a small hand.
if i have a big one i would buy Rival


----------



## kirywka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kirywka*
> 
> wmo is big , g100s low malfunction , salmosa old abyssus - very high LOD ( and also un selectable 500 hz and no dpi steps only 3 ) , fk1 is not a small mouse . a would better play with krait 13 and smoothing that makes no terrible for me.


one question to you.what about new abyssus 14 ? what is wrong with this mouse ? it use the same sensor as the old one !


----------



## thizito

abyssus sucks because is big, i dont know why but doesnt look right feeling the weight, also
the sensor are not so good, smoothing?!
salmosa has drifting.. but im rocking solid with it..

razer forcing using synapse, no memory onboard
synapse sucks
shape is awkward a downgrade
old abyssus > 2k14 every day


----------



## FreeElectron

Anyone know the sensor in the Logitech G300S?


----------



## hza

I guess the same as G300 (A3055). It seems like it's just rebranded with the new Logitech G looks. Or it's maybe AM010 as in G100s, G302, G402, G602.


----------



## woll3

Judging by lense and specs its A3055.


----------



## FreeElectron

Add the G300S sensor A3055
Source
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Overclock.net - Logitech G300S - Page 2 #14 by CPate*
> 
> G300s is a color and logo change to G300.


----------



## KukiMonster

Hi everyone, I'm gonna borrow this thread for a moment. I need recommendations for new mouse and you all know your stuff.

I am low sens fingertip grip person. Been using g400s at 400 cpi for several months now but its weight distribution and bulkiness is still not working out for me. I'm looking for accurate smaller lighter mouse with native 400 cpi.


----------



## povohat

Check out the G302 or FK2


----------



## sjworne

I would go for the FK2 any day... great shape and a solid sensor!
Plus I love the click of a Zowie


----------



## FreeElectron

Logitech G502 (but it's heavy 121gm)
or a Mouse with the 3310 sensor.


----------



## KukiMonster

Thanks for recommendation. Any particular reason why I should pick 3310 sensor over 3095?


----------



## povohat

The 3310 has a native 400cpi step as you requested, unlike the s3095


----------



## FreeElectron

Any news on the 3320?


----------



## sjworne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FreeElectron*
> 
> Any news on the 3320?


What's the difference meant to be compared to the 3310?


----------



## povohat

The only publicly available official information that I'm aware of is here, which identifies it as a LED optical sensor from Pixart. Skylit has stated on this forum that it is technically a weaker design than the 3310. Some Brazilian forum post claims it replaces the 3050. It may not be worth getting that excited about but it's still too early to tell.


----------



## adacsaba

Dudes, greetings !

I've one simple question: one reads that this or that mouse is acceleration free, yet i studied the most PIXART/AVAGO datasheets and there is NOT A WORD about a COMPLETE LINEAR sensor. Practically
every sensor has 8-15-20 G acceleration. So what do u mean about ACCELERATION-FREE state ?

My current gaming mice: A4tech X-755BK, A4tech Bloody ZL5 and V8





PS.
I'm using my mice at very low DPI, namely 200 for X7, 300 for V8 and ZL5. V8 and X7 have PAW3305DK-H, with slight different implementation. They use a very small diaphragm, X7 has red LED, V8 infrared. X7 has a bit higher tracking speed, i cannot malfunction it. V8 is somewhat slower, but more precise. ZL5 uses ADNS-9800, seems very precise, though the mouse is very heavy. Both ZL5 and V8 have red eloxated aluminium gliding pads, instead of teflon. ZL5 has metal chassis.

The MSPAINT test doesn't seem to show any prediction, at neither low or high DPI at neither mice. The turn-return test show acceleration at high DPI, almost none at low .

Are the fancy, expensive brand-name mice behaving the same ? Is the infamous "acceleration" something else than what i described ?

Thanks for your responses in advance.
Best regards
Ada 'FaceRake' Csaba


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> I've one simple question: one reads that this or that mouse is acceleration free, yet i studied the most PIXART/AVAGO datasheets and there is NOT A WORD about a COMPLETE LINEAR sensor. Practically
> every sensor has 8-15-20 G acceleration. So what do u mean about ACCELERATION-FREE state ?


What you thought you were talking about: 




What you're actually talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force


----------



## adacsaba

Thx mate. But now it becomes even more foggier. So, according to datasheet, the mouse sensor's acceleration(?) sensitivity is the multiple of planet earth's gravitational force. So , the so-called 'perfect' PAW3310DH, which is acceleration and prediction free, ACTUALLY has an acceleration 30 times 9.81kgm/s2. **** me freddy, if i understand ...


----------



## povohat

The acceleration specification on the datasheet is a measure of how well the sensor can respond to changes in speed.

This is not directly related to the more common, informal use of the word acceleration in mouse sensor discussions, which refers to when a mouse produces a greater magnitude of motion data than expected when the mouse is moved at higher speeds.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> Thx mate. But now it becomes even more foggier. So, according to datasheet, the mouse sensor's acceleration(?) sensitivity is the multiple of planet earth's gravitational force. So , the so-called 'perfect' PAW3310DH, which is acceleration and prediction free, ACTUALLY has an acceleration 30 times 9.81kgm/s2. **** me freddy, if i understand ...


What we mean with acceleration when talking about flaws in sensors would be more accurately described as "speed related accuracy variance". In laymans terms: when moving a mouse at 400 CPI slowly for one inch you receive 400 counts. If you move the same distance fast you receive 500 counts for example. That's what we call "positive acceleration". Or you might receive only 300 counts, that's what we call "negative acceleration".

The acceleration in the sensor specifications declares how well the sensor can react to a change of motion. And as almost all sensors are rated higher than 10 G it's pretty much impossible for a human to achieve changes in direction faster than the sensor can cope with.


----------



## adacsaba

Ok, this clears things a bit , thanks. So dudes, what say you about 3305DK-H ? I know for a fact, that A4tech rennounced the A3080 for PAW3305 in their devices. Which one is better actually ? Or, are A4tech devices good for anything compared to Zowie, Steelseries , etc with same sensors ?


----------



## kirywka

I think a got malfunction on my Razer Krait 13










well i contact Razer Support few days ago abou the razer krait's smoothness. they recomend me to reset mouse calibration by pressing L R Mwheel buttons and then plug the mouse.after few seconds replug it again and restar PC. before calibration a could make in enotus mouse test smoothness about 3.9 per cent , now I can even get lower than 6-8 per cent

the sensor feels a bit different. can some one try this ? and repost than

actually i think s3988 is the greatest sensor


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> Ok, this clears things a bit , thanks. So dudes, what say you about 3305DK-H ? I know for a fact, that A4tech rennounced the A3080 for PAW3305 in their devices. Which one is better actually ? Or, are A4tech devices good for anything compared to Zowie, Steelseries , etc with same sensors ?


A3080 has more anglesnapping 400/1600cpi native, 3305 in A4tech´s package, has rather low malfunction speed, rather low FPS, 1600 and 3200cpi jitter a lot, so pick your poison, you may or may not like one or either of them.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kirywka*
> 
> I think a got malfunction on my Razer Krait 13


Why? Because enotus said it? Those tests dont mean crap.


----------



## kirywka

and what test is better ?


6.01 ms


----------



## adacsaba

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> A3080 has more anglesnapping 400/1600cpi native, 3305 in A4tech´s package, has rather low malfunction speed, rather low FPS, 1600 and 3200cpi jitter a lot, so pick your poison, you may or may not like one or either of them.
> Why? Because enotus said it? Those tests dont mean crap.


Not quite. Actually in the Oscar and the Bloody mice there is a different implementation of the same sensor. V8 malfunctions above ~1.8 m/s, X-755BK above ~2.6m/s. this last I cannot make it malfunction even with the fastest movements during gaming sessions. Jitter at high DPI doesn't concern me at all, as of "high DPI" for me means no more, no less than 800 DPI. There was a post on ESREALITY, where the dude actually got very nice results from an optical A4tech X7 device. Anyway the 3305 is not a fast sensor, according to datasheets, it should be inferior to A3080. MAD CATZ RATs jitter, yet people are so satisfied with them (Twin-eyeblinks, lol).

I actually am afraid, that i have to buy, one by one, all those mice which i see befit for my needs, and discover which is most suitable for the task by myself. The only real problem is, that this process probably will cost a small fortune.


----------



## adacsaba

BTW Enotus Mouse Test

I simply can't comprehend how a software can assess precision, smoothing, speed translation, etc. without an actual comparison of movement data sent by the device and the physical dislocation of the device.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> Actually in the Oscar and the Bloody mice there is a different implementation of the same sensor. V8 malfunctions above ~1.8 m/s, X-755BK above ~2.6m/s. this last I cannot make it malfunction even with the fastest movements during gaming sessions.


Are you sure that it is a 3305 one? Because that would mean that they use different lenses for different mice. 2.6 would also be weird value.


----------



## kirywka

Remember Kana v1 and Kinzu v2 they have 3305 but different lenses. kinzu v2 got 1.6 m/s malfunction , Kana - about 3 m/s


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kirywka*
> 
> Remember Kana v1 and Kinzu v2 they have 3305 but different lenses. kinzu v2 got 1.6 m/s malfunction , Kana - about 3 m/s


Well, thats what i wrote.


----------



## adacsaba

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Are you sure that it is a 3305 one? Because that would mean that they use different lenses for different mice. 2.6 would also be weird value.


As sure, as the fact that I"M NOT a silence vow taken monk at Cernica Monastery. I actually dismantled X-755, it has PAW3305DK-H, red LED illuminate, i couldn't identify the MCU as it has some kind of paint on it. Very small diaphragm, just like A4tech's V-track mice. The Bloody V8 has the same small hole, no lens covering it (A4tech seemingly rennounced the Holeless HD engine ), illuminated by an infrared LED. I couldn't actually dismantle the V8 without destroying the gliding feet, and since i have no spare ones, i dropped the idea. But i know , that V-series have PAW3305DK-H also, and STM32F103 MCU. There is a HUGE behaviour difference between these two, just dunno how to quantify it. One just feels it, while using it. the X-755 is more 'snappy', but less precise. And also, while i set X7 to 200 DPI, similar 'snappiness' appears for V8 at 300DPI and above. Very curious. And also, the MAX DPI for X7 is 2000 while the V8 's is 3200 (just as the datasheet says for PAW3305). I bought the X7-755BK ' cause i thought it has A3060.

PS. i have a feeling that the MCU of X7 oscar mice is either a 8 bit Pic MCU or a 16 bit dsPic MCU


----------



## adacsaba

On the other hand , i have a bulgarian friend who is playing Planetside 2, and using the $h1tty XL-740K, He aims like a god. So how BAD actually are A4tech devices compared to the more prestigious ones ? Did anybody make some decent comparison ?

I'm asking this , because let's say the A4tech ZL5 Sniper is very similar to the Corsair M65 in many ways. same sensor, both are made of metal, sniper button, similar shape and size,etc. Now the only obvious difference seems the triple price, while ZL5 has faster click response, and way superior macro support. But i can't find a way to compare them sensor-wise, so i can;t possibly know if it's worth the investment.


----------



## FreeElectron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> On the other hand , i have a bulgarian friend who is playing Planetside 2, and using the $h1tty XL-740K, He aims like a god. So how BAD actually are A4tech devices compared to the more prestigious ones ? Did anybody make some decent comparison ?
> 
> I'm asking this , because let's say the A4tech ZL5 Sniper is very similar to the Corsair M65 in many ways. same sensor, both are made of metal, sniper button, similar shape and size,etc. Now the only obvious difference seems the triple price, while ZL5 has faster click response, and way superior macro support. But i can't find a way to compare them sensor-wise, so i can;t possibly know if it's worth the investment.


How does he compare to this?
Relaaa - Youtube


----------



## FlailScHLAMP

didn't know my M45 has a 3310 in it.


----------



## FreeElectron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FlailScHLAMP*
> 
> didn't know my M45 has a 3310 in it.


How is the build quality of this mouse?


----------



## adacsaba

.


----------



## adacsaba

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FreeElectron*
> 
> How does he compare to this?
> Relaaa - Youtube


i could not possibly tell. Planetside 2 seems much more different from Counterstrike or Battlefield. The various factions have very different weaponry (from each other as well as from realistic weapons like in CS or BF).


----------



## FreeElectron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> i could not possibly tell. Planetside 2 seems much more different from Counterstrike or Battlefield. The various factions have very different weaponry (from each other as well as from realistic weapons like in CS or BF).


ok


----------



## FlailScHLAMP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FreeElectron*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *FlailScHLAMP*
> 
> didn't know my M45 has a 3310 in it.
> 
> 
> 
> How is the build quality of this mouse?
Click to expand...

Pretty good, only con i can see really is the foot slider pads.. but i use a Razer Vespula (hard textured mouse pad) so it could be due to the pad more so then the sliders.

I could use a 4th DPI/Cpi mode but its not that much of a biggie.

I like it due to it not having a "sniper" button to get in the way, some dislike it due to that LOL

I like it much more then my Rat7


----------



## adacsaba

all the most competitive gamers i know of, play at mid-low to low DPI. what possibly use could have there the sniper button ? i use it exactly in the reversal, not for throttle down DPI while snipe, but to push up to 800. u see , in PSG2 there is that nasty grenade which, when detonates, slows down the grunts. Now a push from 200 to 800 does the trick, but a very fast long swipe as well. sniper buttons true use is very much up to debate


----------



## FlailScHLAMP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> all the most competitive gamers i know of, play at mid-low to low DPI. what possibly use could have there the sniper button ? i use it exactly in the reversal, not for throttle down DPI while snipe, but to push up to 800. u see , in PSG2 there is that nasty grenade which, when detonates, slows down the grunts. Now a push from 200 to 800 does the trick, but a very fast long swipe as well. _*sniper buttons true use is very much up to debate*_


^^^ exactly Hence the quotations, I just find it gets in the way
16 inch x 10 inch are for my mouse to have free reign over. lots of room for I guess i would call my DPI medium?

TBH i've got no clue what my DPi is set too.. been so long


----------



## Ufasas

does anyone remember how is that tape correctly named http://web.tradekorea.com/upload_file2/sell/71/S00036271/fabric_insulating_tape.jpg somebody from forum used it on top of the mouse shell to improve gripping. Some other same named tapes are not looking the same, this one looks like more anti-slip. would love to try to use it on cms alcor


----------



## sjworne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> does anyone remember how is that tape correctly named http://web.tradekorea.com/upload_file2/sell/71/S00036271/fabric_insulating_tape.jpg somebody from forum used it on top of the mouse shell to improve gripping. Some other same named tapes are not looking the same, this one looks like more anti-slip. would love to try to use it on cms alcor


You could buy zinc oxide tape, I guess that would work the same.


----------



## adacsaba

well, i dunno the name, but it looks like bitumen impregnated textile insulator tape. it's sticky on both sides, leaves black ***** on your hand, even if years old (electric insulation i mean). maybe it's not the best choice for mouse grip improvement. dude, why don't u find some black ABS (acrylonitril-butadiene-styrene) based black spray paint, it should be the same silky substance which is used on keyboards and mice ?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> does anyone remember how is that tape correctly named http://web.tradekorea.com/upload_file2/sell/71/S00036271/fabric_insulating_tape.jpg somebody from forum used it on top of the mouse shell to improve gripping. Some other same named tapes are not looking the same, this one looks like more anti-slip. would love to try to use it on cms alcor


Something along the lines of this might suit you better: http://www.xtracgear.com/accessories/mouse-grips/

Never tried them myself but at least its designed for your intended use.


----------



## Ufasas

Omg looks great, i tried to purchase, but they don't ship to uk...............


----------



## FlailScHLAMP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Omg looks great, i tried to purchase, but they don't ship to uk...............


grab some grip tape for skateboards or outdoor steps, should be a few bux at a corner hardware store.


----------



## sjworne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FlailScHLAMP*
> 
> grab some grip tape for skateboards or outdoor steps, should be a few bux at a corner hardware store.


I don't think he wants to sand his hands down to the bone... lol


----------



## FlailScHLAMP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sjworne*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *FlailScHLAMP*
> 
> grab some grip tape for skateboards or outdoor steps, should be a few bux at a corner hardware store.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he wants to sand his hands down to the bone... lol
Click to expand...

o.0 people use this stuff in bath tubs.. its not THAT abrasive.

if you want to get super permanent and not be able to use your mouse for 24-48 hours afterwards you can always use a few dabs of truck bed liner.

the more you sweat the more it sticks and stays grippy


----------



## Ufasas

Has anyone tried rapoo v300? It has a a3090 sensor, supposed to be flawless, 4000 dpi, software enabled.


----------



## adacsaba

well it looks a quality build, at least according to the pictures found in the link below.

http://www.pcpop.com/doc/0/974/974786.shtml

I looked it up, but it's unavailable in my country yet. For some obscure reason nobody sems to care about budget-oriented gaming peripherials. Sadly mate you will not find detailed reviews for Natec Genesis, A4tech, Genius, Trust, Aula, SPEEDLINK,E-blue, etc devices. For example, A4tech has about 2-3 monthly updates on their Bloody series mice and keyboards, including firmware updates. Not a word anywhere about firmware comparison , etc... (i've collected around 20 versions of Bloody5 so far







.But everybody goes crazy around the 2 only existing firmware of a certain logitech device and so. **** me freddy, if i had the financial means, i would buy up all the budget ****, and test them myself, then write a detailed review

my babies:


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Has anyone tried rapoo v300? It has a a3090 sensor, supposed to be flawless, 4000 dpi, software enabled.


No not yet, but at it's current price on Ebay I'm willing to give it a try







.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> well it looks a quality build, at least according to the pictures found in the link below.
> 
> http://www.pcpop.com/doc/0/974/974786.shtml
> 
> I looked it up, but it's unavailable in my country yet. For some obscure reason nobody sems to care about budget-oriented gaming peripherials. Sadly mate you will not find detailed reviews for Natec Genesis, A4tech, Genius, Trust, Aula, SPEEDLINK,E-blue, etc devices. For example, A4tech has about 2-3 monthly updates on their Bloody series mice and keyboards, including firmware updates. Not a word anywhere about firmware comparison , etc... (i've collected around 20 versions of Bloody5 so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .But everybody goes crazy around the 2 only existing firmware of a certain logitech device and so. **** me freddy, if i had the financial means, i would buy up all the budget ****, and test them myself, then write a detailed review
> 
> my babies:


I'm still waiting for a 3310 version of the V8 or A9/F9 mouse


----------



## adacsaba

well, let's see:
they released Oscar series with A3060 and A3080, then switched to P3305 for reasons unknown. V series indeed should have been with P3310 for starters. Now they are releasing A series with A3050. Naturally one would assume A3090 instead, but there must be a reason for this. Anyway, if one compares the old Logitech MX500 which has the sh|^tty A2020 (naturally, polled at least 500Hz) to anything with the same sensor, it starts to make sense. Things come down to how the sensor is implemented by the manufacturer. I currently refurbished an MX500 (somebody wanted to throw it away after spilled some sangria on and INTO it). Well, what can i say, if you ever had an A2020 based mouse (A4tech SWOP-23,24, some DeLuxe ones, Microsoft ***, Logitech M100 and so) , these are just a different class. A2020 should have the most terrible prediction one ever seen, and yet the MX500 has none . The MX500 is a good example for the fact that even consumer grade sh!^t can be made to meet high end standards.


----------



## Xan666

thank you for posting this. love having this information handy.

*Cheers*


----------



## adacsaba

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xan666*
> 
> thank you for posting this. love having this information handy.


Which one , mate ? If you thought about sensors, well the first page of this page has a quite detailed list of gaming grade mice and their sensors. If you thought about A4tech Bloody sensors, let me give u a tip: in the install folder root there is a subdir named /FW. It contains firmware for various models, 4 for each, afferent to the 4 so called 'cores' . The naming convention of firmware files can give a clue about what sensor the devices have.


----------



## Xan666

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> Which one , mate ? If you thought about sensors, well the first page of this page has a quite detailed list of gaming grade mice and their sensors. If you thought about A4tech Bloody sensors, let me give u a tip: in the install folder root there is a subdir named /FW. It contains firmware for various models, 4 for each, afferent to the 4 so called 'cores' . The naming convention of firmware files can give a clue about what sensor the devices have.


I was referring to the First Page, although I'm curious about A4Tech BLoody v7 and v8.

Only thing is that I'm really into gaming at 4k now, and I have such a hard time with lower DPI mice
I find end up having to increase sensitivity, which I prefer not to be touching. but it beats moving my wrist.

Ideally, my wrist is planted, and the movements are made with only the tips of my fingers.
I do push ups on them just to prepare. I'm sure not going to be moving my arm now... that's a whole other work out.







(j/k, but I still have my G9, and all it's accessories).


----------



## adacsaba

Well, i trained myself for around 8 month for really low-res gaming, 300DPI for laser and 200 for optical. A 8 hour Planetside 2 session is like weightlifting for the right arm and rheumatism for the left wrist and fingers







. That Taiyo-Yuden Sakura guy could tell a thing or two about Bloody, since he has a nice collection of gaming mice, including the absolute top sensor G502. Maybe if we ask him nicely ... I don't know anything else, but A4tech, A4tech, A4tech ... and a $h1tty MX500. Unfortunately this last one will install on x64 Windows as a simple HID device, hence is $h1tty. On x86, with it's own driver and 500Hz forced poll, it's good enough, just obsolete.
Btw, is there out the source code for the HIDUSBF filter driver ?


----------



## Xan666

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> Well, i trained myself for around 8 month for really low-res gaming, 300DPI for laser and 200 for optical. A 8 hour Planetside 2 session is like weightlifting for the right arm and rheumatism for the left wrist and fingers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . That Taiyo-Yuden Sakura guy could tell a thing or two about Bloody, since he has a nice collection of gaming mice, including the absolute top sensor G502. Maybe if we ask him nicely ... I don't know anything else, but A4tech, A4tech, A4tech ... and a $h1tty MX500. Unfortunately this last one will install on x64 Windows as a simple HID device, hence is $h1tty. On x86, with it's own driver and 500Hz forced poll, it's good enough, just obsolete.
> Btw, is there out the source code for the HIDUSBF filter driver ?


Take a look see in here
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/changing-usb-polling-rate-to-1000hz-or-lower.106653/

In terms of writing a driver from scratch, it's possible, but not likely worth the time.


----------



## Ufasas

So i;ve used this zinc oxide tape to make cms alcor wider at right side for better grip, seems a tad better


----------



## Ufasas

http://www.miniinthebox.com/rapoo-v20-gaming-optics-wired-usb-mouse-3000-dpi_p2008754.html

what sensor?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> http://www.miniinthebox.com/rapoo-v20-gaming-optics-wired-usb-mouse-3000-dpi_p2008754.html
> 
> what sensor?


A3050, offset to the right.


----------



## Ufasas

This one looks good then, 3050 isn't that bad, http://www.miniinthebox.com/rapoo-v8x-gaming-e-sports-wired-usb-mouse-3000-dpi_p2008780.html

i suppose this v8x is 3050 too? v20, v300 both looks awesome, tempting to try

v90 also

http://www.amazon.com/Rapoo-High-Speed-Response-18-Color-Breathing/dp/B00JNVWD9S


----------



## adacsaba

yo dude, what the blue f|_|ck is A4tech AK-47 ? what sensor does it have ? is it Oscar or not ?


----------



## Ufasas

it's A3060, was very nice mouse back in the day of 2010, very cheap, like ~10gbp, very fragile build actually, can't find it online anymore, have the only one lent to my sister's husbands parents

http://market.yandex.ru/model.xml?modelid=1635064

one guy here says he has been using ak-47 for 5 years already, works very well, nice.

P.S. Just got rapoo v300 for 21pound from China, couldn't resist anymore, there was kinzu v3 with A3050 for 21 GBP, but rapoo has A3090 + more buttons and inbuilt memory!!!! WOOHO!!!! It will be with me by feb. 13th, maybe i'll make a review and comparison with ie3, alcor, aby14.


----------



## adacsaba

What can i say, my very first optical mouse was the A4tech SWOP-23 http://www.a4tech.com/product.asp?cid=1&scid=1&id=28 . I bought it in 2002 as a birthday present for myself. It was amazing for the time being, i used it so much that the opaque parts went completely transparent on the sides. Once the cat chewed on the cord, i had to replace it, then the cord broke, replaced it again. I used it continuously for about 4-5 years, until my first 1440x900 monitor, when i had to switch to a shiftable DPI gaming mouse. Then i gave it as gift to a friend, the cat chewed on the cord again ( lol







), friend gave it back. Then it stood in my lockers for about 2 years, i gave it as replacement to my girlfriend's daughter, the cable broke, she gave it back. I replaced cable and it's in my locker again.After 13 years it is still operational. It has an A2020, but without it's original drivers (Win98) has the most terrible prediction i ever seen


----------



## kornedbeefy

So I now have a bunch of gaming mice with optical sensors. To satisfy my own curiosity and from a number of years (before I found OCN) I was very happy with laser sensors, I want to try out the latest and greatest gaming laser sensor to see how it compares to optical.

Which one is currently best for gaming?

thanks


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> This one looks good then, 3050 isn't that bad, http://www.miniinthebox.com/rapoo-v8x-gaming-e-sports-wired-usb-mouse-3000-dpi_p2008780.html
> 
> i suppose this v8x is 3050 too? v20, v300 both looks awesome, tempting to try
> 
> v90 also
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Rapoo-High-Speed-Response-18-Color-Breathing/dp/B00JNVWD9S


Yes, both of them are a3050 as well.


----------



## FreeElectron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kornedbeefy*
> 
> So I now have a bunch of gaming mice with optical sensors. To satisfy my own curiosity and from a number of years (before I found OCN) I was very happy with laser sensors, I want to try out the latest and greatest gaming laser sensor to see how it compares to optical.
> 
> Which one is currently best for gaming?
> 
> thanks


Best sensor is in the Logitech G502.
Second best sensor is the 3310.


----------



## trriL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FreeElectron*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *kornedbeefy*
> 
> So I now have a bunch of gaming mice with optical sensors. To satisfy my own curiosity and from a number of years (before I found OCN) I was very happy with laser sensors, I want to try out the latest and greatest gaming laser sensor to see how it compares to optical.
> 
> Which one is currently best for gaming?
> 
> thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Best sensor is in the Logitech G502.
> Second best sensor is the 3310.
Click to expand...

Edit: missread
I'm not sure what the best laser sensor is at the moment.
FreeElectron listed optical (LED) sensors by the way.


----------



## adacsaba

There is a much smaller variety of laser sensors out there, than optical : either A9800 (S9xxx) or PLN203x. Pick one... Although i met a guy on Cobalt, who uses an A6010, and has the aim of a sh|tweasel


----------



## povohat

Steelseries is still using the 9500 in the Sensei line (excluding the MLG version which has the 9800).


----------



## adacsaba

9500, 9800, frankenstein, dracula - all the same. My conclusion is after some hardcore gaming for about 10 months that all comes down to genetics. If you are one of the 100ms dudes, than any gaming grade mouse will do, regardless of the sensor. If you are the 200ms guy, then top class hardware and a bit of training will add some advantage. Now if you are the 250+ ms guy, top end hardware and training will make little, if any at all, difference. How can i put this fairly, - i just tried for long months precision and speed training daily , with various tools, and after this time result is mostly the same. Even trained my arms' muscles for fast movements, went down to low - very low DPI, etc. I played only PSG2, true, but there are these dudes who just simply dance out from gunfire, can't do jack $h1t to them. If it was to prevail over them, and i did from time to time, it was due to superior tactics, not raw physiological parameters.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> 9500, 9800, frankenstein, dracula - all the same


The BEST Gothic memories that will last for years







.


----------



## Phos

Sabre Optical S3988

Really? Weird.


----------



## Brightmist

It'd be nice if someone can review Evga X5 Optical S3988, sure looks interesting with small size, light weight and side buttons.


----------



## Ufasas

Hey, update torq x5 optical to EVGA section, it's not everglide :| And yeah, this is another mouse i would like to try now along with g502 . S3988 + 3366, mmmm. Well just remembered krait 4G with s3988, had it, wasn't very special + shape is uncomfortable and cutting fingers, when playing too hardcore. Not sure about torq x5 now..

What's the difference between 4G 3988 optical and 3988 optical sensors? or are they the same?


----------



## adacsaba

http://www.everglide.com , the only mouse you'll find here is a grey kitchen mouse


----------



## hza

EverGlide was a well known "MousePad company" in the past. They also offered MouseGlidez, 2 headsets (black/white) and a mouse.


----------



## Ufasas

What sensors are used in Gamdias mice?

GAMDIAS Apolo Optical Mouse 3200DPI
GAMDIAS Hades Optical Extension Mouse - 3200DPI

P.s.

Can you also add EVGA Torq X3 Optical - adns 3090, please


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> What sensors are used in Gamdias mice?
> 
> GAMDIAS Apolo Optical Mouse 3200DPI
> GAMDIAS Hades Optical Extension Mouse - 3200DPI


Cant say, they dont give any specs and nobody bothers with them, except their sponsored players but they are whining all the time about their gear, except the glove, because it cant break.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Cant say, they dont give any specs and nobody bothers with them, except their sponsored players but they are whining all the time about their gear, except the glove, because it cant break.


Lmao, well that's a reason, will keep looking at some other unmentioned mice, and probably mark them here from time to time


----------



## Ufasas

what's the difference between plating mouse cable plugs gold and nickel (evga torq x5) ?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> what's the difference between plating mouse cable plugs gold and nickel (evga torq x5) ?


In short, durability and swag.


----------



## Ufasas

Thanks for reply, so it's nothing special about plating, i found out that silver plating gives more conductivity but erodes faster than gold and nickel, oh well, if you're not fisherman and not using mouse near shore, all those plating choices should be just fine







. I'm still interest to test Gamdias Hades 3200, saw it just for 15 GBP. Also Senser Raw Glossy Black in great condition acquired for 2x cheaper coming to my playground. I should post some review of Rapoo v300 (A-3090), I did it in other forum. Kinda lazy right now. Wanna review my g502, Torq x5 and Sensei Raw soon :C


----------



## Ufasas

Sensors.xls 24k .xls file


Just got reply from chinese Gamdias, they basically use 3050 adns in optical mice, nothing special


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Sensors.xls 24k .xls file
> 
> 
> Just got reply from chinese Gamdias, they basically use 3050 adns in optical mice, nothing special


Altough in this case they should have stayed silent, i also made a new subcategory for all those "Gaming Mice".


----------



## Ufasas

Sensor P3606 - MSI DS100 Interceptor

How does this compare to 3090A 3050A ?

3500 dpi. It's like some 3090 variation, not much info in forums though :/


----------



## FreeElectron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Sensor P3606 - MSI DS100 Interceptor
> 
> How does this compare to 3090A 3050A ?
> 
> 3500 dpi. It's like some 3090 variation, not much info in forums though :/


If you have it then do some Ino-like reviews


----------



## Ufasas

Actually i'm tempted to get it, there are some places to get it for cheaper, it has nice space for middle finger rest between wheel and dpi buttons, it has dpi level light indicators, side buttons, shape reminds me of Zowie ZA12, but damn, i wish DS100 was 39-40mm height, now it's slightly lower than my belowed Sensei Raw shape - 37.3mm :/

Default DPI levels 400/800/1600/3500, sounds like 3090 , but i'm sold immediately when it has dpi level of 1800 : / , so it's easier to switch sensitivities between Raw, G502, and Abyssus for me

MSI didn't reply clearly enough about paw-3606 details.

PS. Got a better reply from MSI 

No thanks, lasers usualy 90% of the time can kiss my ass


----------



## OCmember

Are there any mice out there than have a very similar feel to the A6010 Laser sensor?

I've been using the MX 5 and MX 3 for my machines for the past 3-4 years and I see mice with these snesors are becoming harder and harder to find.

Thanks


----------



## MatheusScheuer

Hey there. Are you positive about the AM010 on the Logitech G602?
Because I was reading a Brazilian review, and saw it using the AM000. Here's the review.

And here's the specific image


Are both the sensors used on G602? Or someone is wrong?


----------



## SmashTV

Probably just a naming scheme for the wireless version, but it's pretty much the same sensor with a few differences.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Probably just a naming scheme for the wireless version, but it's pretty much the same sensor with a few differences.


^

Same hardware, even internally referred as AM010.


----------



## MatheusScheuer

Thank you guys


----------



## X-NET

Hello, somebody assorted *Bloody AL9,* how to construct the board and there is a sensor, preferably a photo, but it is not known exactly how unscrew the mouse


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-NET*
> 
> Hello, somebody assorted *Bloody AL9,* how to construct the board and there is a sensor, preferably a photo, but it is not known exactly how unscrew the mouse


What?


----------



## X-NET

Photos here lecturing *A9* entrails, and there is a photo only *AL9*


----------



## Above8

I guess worth mentioning that Gigabyte Aivia Uranium has PLN 2032 sensor http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabyte-aivia-uranium-gaming-mouse,3746-4.html

And I assume Aivia M8600, Aivia M8600 V2 and Aivia Uranium all have same sensor.
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4412#kf
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3777#ov
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4607#ov


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> I guess worth mentioning that Gigabyte Aivia Uranium has PLN 2032 sensor.


I'm completely ignorant to the myriad of sensors that are available but since everyone has a huge hard-on for 3366 and 3310 models what is the significance of the PLN 2032 sensor?

Curious to know if it's better or worse than the popular ones already mentioned.

Wouldn't mind trying a different mouse containing a strange like sensor not normally worshiped here on OCN.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> And I assume Aivia M8600, Aivia M8600 V2 and Aivia Uranium all have same sensor.
> http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4412#kf
> http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3777#ov
> http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4607#ov


Could be PLN 2033 for those as well, release date might give it away but im too lazy to check.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> I'm completely ignorant to the myriad of sensors that are available but since everyone has a huge hard-on for 3366 and 3310 models what is the significance of the PLN 2032 sensor?


Significance as in?

It is significant in being an alternative Tech to "seeing" Systems, as for being significant on the Market, lets just say there isnt a lot, altough the most recent mouse with PLN(probably something above 2034) will probably be the Roccat Nyth if nothing changed.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Curious to know if it's better or worse than the popular ones already mentioned.
> 
> Wouldn't mind trying a different mouse containing a strange like sensor not normally worshiped here on OCN.


It has its quirks due to how it operates, like converting Z-Axis movement into x and y, altough the lower the LOD gets, the less it becomes a problem.

It also isnt bound by the limitations of taking pictures, allowing better tracking on high CPI, it´s speed related Variance is claimed to be 0.1%, feels like its true to me, not to mention the other applications where this tech gets used require very high precision. I personally like it, but there issnt anything fitting for me with it yet.


----------



## Ino.

I detailed the sensor behavior of the R.A.T. TE in my review: http://www.overclock.net/t/1511237/

It tracked well up to 3.2 m/s, but never faster, which was disappointing. It was very accurate up to that speed so I doubt that behavior is necessary.
The slight cursor movements from vibrations on the desk were also annoying.

However the TE was the only PTE mouse I ever tried, so others may exhibit different behavior.


----------



## FreeElectron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I detailed the sensor behavior of the R.A.T. TE in my review: http://www.overclock.net/t/1511237/
> 
> It tracked well up to 3.2 m/s, but never faster, which was disappointing. It was very accurate up to that speed so I doubt that behavior is necessary.
> The slight cursor movements from vibrations on the desk were also annoying.
> 
> However the TE was the only PTE mouse I ever tried, so others may exhibit different behavior.


Ino.
Any good mouse reviews coming up?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I detailed the sensor behavior of the R.A.T. TE in my review: http://www.overclock.net/t/1511237/
> 
> It tracked well up to 3.2 m/s, but never faster, which was disappointing. It was very accurate up to that speed so I doubt that behavior is necessary.
> The slight cursor movements from vibrations on the desk were also annoying.


I doubt that it is the PTE´s fault, older PLN models could track at nearly twice the speed depending on surface.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Could be PLN 2033 for those as well, release date might give it away but im too lazy to check.


They say: "Hardware based sensitivity up to 5600dpi / software enhanced up to 6500dpi."
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3777#ov
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> It has its quirks due to how it operates, like converting Z-Axis movement into x and y, altough the lower the LOD gets, the less it becomes a problem.
> 
> It also isnt bound by the limitations of taking pictures, allowing better tracking on high CPI, it´s speed related Variance is claimed to be 0.1%, feels like its true to me, not to mention the other applications where this tech gets used require very high precision. I personally like it, but there issnt anything fitting for me with it yet.


Philips TwinEye fundamentally differs from image correlation sensors (both "optical" and "laser") and has nothing in common with them. In short: in place of taking photos of the surface and then comparing them, this sensor emits laser beam with given frequency and measures frequency of reflected light. A bit more information here: http://www.photonics.philips.com/technology/philips-laser-doppler-technology

This approach gives way better accuracy incomparable with any image correlation sensor. But this superior accuracy comes at a price of strict requirements for tracking surface. Surface must be as hard as it's possible. This sensor wasn't designed to work on soft surfaces and doesn't work on them properly.

Some manufacturers try to hide problems caused by using it on soft mouse pads by lowering sensitivity of slow movements. Razer use so called Dynamic DPI, Mad Catz call their variant Sensor Dampening. It doesn't make this sensor good for cloth pads anyway and only make it worse for hard surfaces. These algorithms don't remove the cause of problems and only hide its consequences. It'd be better to notify users with huge letters on box "for hard surfaces only" than to mutilate mice.

I only know a couple of models that you can use without such algorithms: Razer Lachesis 3G, Razer Spectre and Mad Catz R. A. T. TE (in its case Sensor Dampening may be disabled).


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FreeElectron*
> 
> Ino.
> Any good mouse reviews coming up?


Just did a video for Za series, no other mouse review planned right now. I'll try and do a review of the G-SR mousepad soon.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> I doubt that it is the PTE´s fault, older PLN models could track at nearly twice the speed depending on surface.


I hope so, but on the TE it was disappointing. Are you sure that the other ones had a PCS that high? Because malfunction speed might have been a lot higher, the TE never malfunctioned. It just cut off at 3.2 m/s like so:


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I hope so, but on the TE it was disappointing. Are you sure that the other ones had a PCS that high? Because malfunction speed might have been a lot higher, the TE never malfunctioned. It just cut off at 3.2 m/s like so:


Which surface did you use it on? Soft black cloth? You should try something hard, matte and light.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I hope so, but on the TE it was disappointing. Are you sure that the other ones had a PCS that high?


Yes, my Lachesis(3.5g) was able to do over 5m/s without problems, even on the qck, official spec is actually 6m/s. T.E. probably has bad firmware, would be interesting to know what RAT 7 achieves.


----------



## Above8

I-Rocks IM3-WE = A3090
http://www.pcwaishe.cn/thread-405227-1-1.html

Gigabyte Aivia M8600 V2 = PLN 2032
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3777#ov

Razer TRON Gaming Mouse = PLN 2032
http://www.razerzone.com/licensed-and-team-peripherals/tron-gaming-mouse-designed-by-razer/

Razer Spectre = PLN 2032
http://www.razerzone.com/licensed-and-team-peripherals/starcraft-ii-razer-spectre/


----------



## Above8

It's good that this list specifies which of LED mice has angle snapping and which doesn't. I think it would make sense to specify, which PTE mice have Dynamic DPI and which don't. From what I tested myself:

CM Storm Inferno - Dynamic DPI ON
Cyborg R. A. T. 5 - Sensor Dampening ON
MadCatz R. A. T. 5 - Sensor Dampening ON
MadCatz R. A. T. 7 - Sensor Dampening ON
MadCatz R. A. T. TE - Sensor Dampening ON but can set to very low in software
MadCatz M. M. O. TE - Sensor Dampening ON but can set to very low in software
Razer Imperator 3.5G - Dynamic DPI ON
Razer Lachesis 3G - Dynamic DPI OFF (only raw sensor tracking)
Razer Lachesis 3.5G - Dynamic DPI ON
Razer Spectre - Dynamic DPI OFF (only raw sensor tracking)



Razer released first mouse with PTE (Lachesis 3G) back in 2007 http://www.razerzone.com/asset/swf/razer-timeline.swf All their later mice with this sensor have Dynamic DPI. The only exception I know is Razer Spectre which they say was co-developed with Blizzard.

Mad Catz R. A. T. 5,7 and 9 have same software. 5 and 7 have Sensor Dampening which you can't disable, and I can't see this option in 9's software 



 . Doesn't seem like you can disable Sensor Dampening in R. A. T. M's software 



 A bit different situation with R. A. T. TE and M. M.O. TE which have new software, they call this option "OFF" 



 but there is still some dampening of the smallest movements.

CM Storm Inferno also have something like Razer's Dynamic DPI but with a bit different formula. I found no way do disable it in software.


----------



## ChromeBeauty

Are there sensors that are free of any prediction, acceleration, angle snapping etc.?
What are the 3 best sensors?
I guess 3366 and 3310 but as 3366 seems so seldom(2 mice only?) is there any alternative to the wider spread 3310?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Are there sensors that are free of any prediction, acceleration, angle snapping etc.?
> What are the 3 best sensors?


The top 3 sensors currently available in mice are the 3366, 3988/3989, and 3310.

The 3366 and 3988/3989 have 12,500 FPS versus the 3310's 6,500.

The 3366 has a pixel array size of 40 by 40 versus the others' 30 by 30, so this greater pixel amount allows for lower noise in tracking.


----------



## ChromeBeauty

Thanks, and do these utilize any of the "unholy" practices like prediction, acceleration, angle snapping, etc.?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Thanks, and do these utilize any of the "unholy" practices like prediction, acceleration, angle snapping, etc.?


No, they don't have angle snapping unless enabled via software, and they are the most consistent sensors regarding tracking variance, but the 3310 might have a problem of inconsistent CPI unless manufacturers address it, like Final Mouse did in an update. Please, correct my last part if I'm wrong.

Also, PTE sensors could be categorized with these aforementioned sensors, but they utilize a different tracking method, so they require different surfaces and have another axis versus non-PTE sensors.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Are there sensors that are free of any prediction, acceleration, angle snapping etc.?
> What are the 3 best sensors?
> I guess 3366 and 3310 but as 3366 seems so seldom(2 mice only?) is there any alternative to the wider spread 3310?


On my opinion top 3 sensors are PLN2034, PLN2033 and PLN2032.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> On my opinion top 3 sensors are PLN2034, PLN2033 and PLN2032.


What's the difference between them?


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> What's the difference between them?


I guess max CPI.


----------



## ChromeBeauty

These are Optical Laser?
Does that alone take them "over" the 3366, 3988/3989 and 3310 in your opinion?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> These are Optical Laser?
> Does that alone take them "over" the 3366, 3988/3989 and 3310 in your opinion?


It is not like the Avago 9500/9800 optical, coherent light sensors. It does not use images to track.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> These are Optical Laser?
> Does that alone take them "over" the 3366, 3988/3989 and 3310 in your opinion?


3366, 3988/3989, 3310 and most others are image correlation sensors. Image correlation sensors are inaccurate by nature. First of all they can't receive all information about surface. Photo diodes cover only small part of surface. Take a look at image sensor of A3090 for example.

Knowing it's size (about 1.5 mm) you can count it's optical (native) resolution which is about 400-600 DPI. And even at this resolution photodiodes don't cover all the surface and sensor won't track movements perfectly. This is the main reason why most gamers play on low sensitivity, because image correlation sensors are inaccurate.

Also photodiodes form vertical and horizontal lines. If you move mouse along strictly along X or Y axis, sensor will track movement somehow predictable. But if you move mouse in random direction, tracking quality will be worse. This is called angle error. The easiest way to experience it is to outline any picture. With image correlation sensor cursor will always go in random directions and outlining will be a huge problem. Any other technology does it well. By the way that's why artists use graphics tablets instead of image correlation mice.

PLN2034, PLN2033, PLN2032 and PLN2031 are Doppler shift sensors (also known as Philips TwinEye or PTE), not image correlation. Doppler shift effect is the change in frequency of a wave for an observer moving relative to its source.

So basically it means that if source of light moves, phase of reflected light will change. TwinEye emits laser beam to the surface and measures phase of reflected light.

Sensor receives analog information, which is then digitized. This approach doesn't have optical resolution (DPI). Information about speed and time may be divided in any amount of CPI. Accuracy is limited by wavelength of laser (857 nm or 1 / 30 000 inch) and characteristic of tracking surface. This sensor measures fraction of wave, it should give an idea about its accuracy.

There are 2 lasers, one measures movement along X-axis and second along Y-axis. They are completely independent and it eliminates any kind of angle errors.

Both lasers are directed to surface at angle of 60 degrees. Sadly it means they measure not only horizontal mouse movements, but also vertical. So when you raise the mouse, or tracking surface bends while you press buttons, sensor will report movement.

This design has another weakness. There is only one laser beam which is tracking motion, so if there is anything on its way, sensor won't be able to measure anything. For example if there is a hair under the sensor, it's likely that one axis won't track at all. Same thing with dust.

This senor's requirements to tracking surface are quite contradictive. To avoid Z-axis bug surface should be hard. For stable tracking surface should be as flat as possible. But it also should reflect and distort light, or be matte in other words. Worst of all it works on black cloth. For now I found nothing better for this sensor than chemically frosted glass.


This sensor can't have any kind of angle error. There is no optical DPI, it doesn't need any interpolation to achieve any amount CPI. There is no noise and no need to hide it with smoothing or angle snapping.

In short: in terms of tracking quality PTE is absolutely superior than any kind of image correlation sensors.


----------



## GhosX

^
Rep

Thank you for the comparison


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> This sensor can't have any kind of angle error. There is no optical DPI, it doesn't need any interpolation to achieve any amount CPI. There is no noise and no need to hide it with smoothing or angle snapping.
> 
> In short: in terms of tracking quality PTE is absolutely superior than any kind of image correlation sensors.


Huh, the more you know. So you're telling me if I have a PERFECT SURFACE, a R.A.T. TE with the PLN2034 is superior to the G502 with the 3366?


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Huh, the more you know. So you're telling me if I have a PERFECT SURFACE, a R.A.T. TE with the PLN2034 is superior to the G502 with the 3366?


Yes. Even in spite of sensor in TE isn't raw and you can't completely disable sensor dampening.

Even if you choose "off" in software it will still be there, but it will affect only the slowest movements, about 1-2 pixels per second at 1000 CPI. Its influence is minimal but it's still there.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> Yes. Even in spite of sensor in TE isn't raw and you can't completely disable sensor dampening.
> 
> Even if you choose "off" in software it will still be there, but it will affect only the slowest movements, about 1-2 pixels per second at 1000 CPI. Its influence is minimal but it's still there.


Thanks, this is very interesting for me. I'm actually going to go buy a piece of matte frosted glass to use as a mousepad and buy myself a TPE mouse.

Is PLN2034 the best? Or should I choose PLN2031, PLN2032 or PLN2033?


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Thanks, this is very interesting for me. I'm actually going to go buy a piece of matte frosted glass to use as a mousepad and buy myself a TPE mouse.
> 
> Is PLN2034 the best? Or should I choose PLN2031, PLN2032 or PLN2033?


I personally can't find any difference in performance. It depends more on settings and implementation, that on model of sensor.


----------



## ChromeBeauty

I guess calling image correlation sensors "inaccurate" is a bit harsh, from a technical point they simply seem to be not as accurate as a PTE but still accurate enough or I doubt they would get developed anymore.
Just wonder how many users have a PTE and how any use a mouse with image correlation, I doubt that PTE has the majority and that for many reasons because tracking alone isn't anything.

@HiTechPixel
I guess you should think twice about going PTE, here are some points mentioned that made me doubt that a PTE gives me better results for my setup(from post 8 on):
http://www.overclock.net/t/1559719/really-only-a-matter-of-grip-style


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> I personally can't find any difference in performance. It depends more on settings and implementation, that on model of sensor.


Do you have any personal recommendations for the most high quality and raw PTE mouse?

Also, how thick does the frosted glass have to be? Thick enough for the light to refract?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> I guess calling image correlation sensors "inaccurate" is a bit harsh, from a technical point they simply seem to be not as accurate as a PTE but still accurate enough or I doubt they would get developed anymore.
> Just wonder how many users have a PTE and how any use a mouse with image correlation, I doubt that PTE has the majority and that for many reasons because tracking alone isn't anything.
> 
> @HiTechPixel
> I guess you should think twice about going PTE, here are some points mentioned that made me doubt that a PTE gives me better results for my setup(from post 8 on):
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1559719/really-only-a-matter-of-grip-style


Yes, I have heard horror stories about PTE mice but I haven't researched much about them. I'm just interested in how raw I can get because I play Counter-Strike competitively and often play Quake/Unreal Tournament on offline LANs. Call it an experiment if you will: Which gives me better performance? An optical sensor or a PTE sensor?


----------



## ChromeBeauty

Well if you need to put tracking above anything else you should try PTE.
But performance I my eyes is more than tracking, if you for whatever reasons don't get along with the mouse even if it's the best in the world your performance will suck no matter what sensor is on it.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Well if you need to put tracking above anything else you should try PTE.
> But performance I my eyes is more than tracking, if you for whatever reasons don't get along with the mouse even if it's the best in the world your performance will suck no matter what sensor is on it.


Of course, of course. I'm fully prepared to give up if the frosted glass costs too much, or if the mouse I pick actually sucks, or if the mouse + frosted glass combo doesn't work etc.

I still have my eyes set on that Ducky Secret mouse as a backup, hope it releases soon.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Do you have any personal recommendations for the most high quality and raw PTE mouse?


I only know 2 mice with raw PTE: Razer Lachesis 3G and Razer Spectre, and Spectre is better in many aspects. Both are out of production.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Also, how thick does the frosted glass have to be? Thick enough for the light to refract?


I've only tested 5 mm thickness. White paper under glass makes sensor work better. I'll try to test other variants later.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Yes, I have heard horror stories about PTE mice but I haven't researched much about them.


I've heard a lot of horrors too: 



 Such reviews are result of lack of information.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> I'm just interested in how raw I can get because I play Counter-Strike competitively and often play Quake/Unreal Tournament on offline LANs. Call it an experiment if you will: Which gives me better performance? An optical sensor or a PTE sensor?


You will be shocked. Especially using PTE on glass.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> I guess calling image correlation sensors "inaccurate" is a bit harsh, from a technical point they simply seem to be not as accurate as a PTE but still accurate enough or I doubt they would get developed anymore.
> Just wonder how many users have a PTE and how any use a mouse with image correlation, I doubt that PTE has the majority and that for many reasons because tracking alone isn't anything.
> 
> @HiTechPixel
> I guess you should think twice about going PTE, here are some points mentioned that made me doubt that a PTE gives me better results for my setup(from post 8 on):
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1559719/really-only-a-matter-of-grip-style


Membrane keyboards are much more popular than mechanical, it doesn't make them better. Yes, they make less noise, but performance wise they are worse.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Well if you need to put tracking above anything else you should try PTE.
> But performance I my eyes is more than tracking, if you for whatever reasons don't get along with the mouse even if it's the best in the world your performance will suck no matter what sensor is on it.


Car may be comfortable but slow, and you won't won race with it. For racing you need F1, it isn't comfortable, but it's fast.


----------



## ChromeBeauty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> Membrane keyboards are much more popular than mechanical, it doesn't make them better. Yes, they make less noise, but performance wise they are worse.


Yep but performance is what comes out at the end, and I guess the majority uses what they use because their performance sucks when using material that may be superior on paper but in practice just don't deliver what they need. At the end better is what works better for you.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> Car may be comfortable but slow, and you won't won race with it. For racing you need F1, it isn't comfortable, but it's fast.


Well an F1 car is the pinnacle of racing cars but if you can't get along with it you will win no race no matter how good the F2 car is, but if you choose a car you get along with you might not win every race but surely perform better than in a F1 car and you may win some races. Especially because not every race is performed on a Formula 1 track.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> I only know 2 mice with raw PTE: Razer Lachesis 3G and Razer Spectre, and Spectre is better in many aspects. Both are out of production.


Aww, you're breaking my heart here. Are there any currently-produced PTE mice you would recommend?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> I've only tested 5 mm thickness. White paper under glass makes sensor work better. I'll try to test other variants later.


Thanks, I'll see if I can't test different measures of thickness. It'd be interesting to see how thin one can go before the sensor stops working properly.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Aww, you're breaking my heart here. Are there any currently-produced PTE mice you would recommend?


If you can't find new Spectre in stock, maybe it's worth to search for used one. If it's not an option, you have to choose between Razer mice with Dynamic DPI and Mad Catz mice with Sensor Dampening. I prefer Sensor Dampening here, because Dynamic DPI limits available cursor speeds and Sensor Dampening only makes them harder to achieve. In this case there is not much of a choice: Rat TE or Rat 5. TE is lighter and Dampening may be reduced (but I use it with "medium" dampening because it's easier to compensate), but its shell is fragile. Rat 5 is heavier, but aluminum plate makes it more robust and stable. If you want to get maximum from them, you should physically disconnect LEDs indicating profiles and sensitivity, but it's another story.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Thanks, I'll see if I can't test different measures of thickness. It'd be interesting to see how thin one can go before the sensor stops working properly.


The idea is to use matte surface of glass. Probably thickness won't change a lot.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Yep but performance is what comes out at the end, and I guess the majority uses what they use because their performance sucks when using material that may be superior on paper but in practice just don't deliver what they need. At the end better is what works better for you.
> Well an F1 car is the pinnacle of racing cars but if you can't get along with it you will win no race no matter how good the F2 car is, but if you choose a car you get along with you might not win every race but surely perform better than in a F1 car and you may win some races. Especially because not every race is performed on a Formula 1 track.


Sadly, difference in performance is too big and this example is too far from reality. Knowing, what I can do with PTE, I tried my best to get all I could with different CMOS on different surfaces, and it was never even close. Using CMOS you always need to keep an eye on cursor and compensate sensor errors, you can't just throw the mouse in any needed direction and click the button even before you see where cursor is, because you are never sure where it will be next time. With PTE it's something common, it's how you always use it. And it's not the only critical difference.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> If you can't find new Spectre in stock, maybe it's worth to search for used one. If it's not an option, you have to choose between Razer mice with Dynamic DPI and Mad Catz mice with Sensor Dampening. I prefer Sensor Dampening here, because Dynamic DPI limits available cursor speeds and Sensor Dampening only makes them harder to achieve. In this case there is not much of a choice: Rat TE or Rat 5. TE is lighter and Dampening may be reduced (but I use it with "medium" dampening because it's easier to compensate), but its shell is fragile. Rat 5 is heavier, but aluminum plate makes it more robust and stable. If you want to get maximum from them, you should physically disconnect LEDs indicating profiles and sensitivity, but it's another story.
> The idea is to use matte surface of glass. Probably thickness won't change a lot.


Razer Imperator 3.5G?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> Sadly, difference in performance is too big and this example is too far from reality. Knowing, what I can do with PTE, I tried my best to get all I could with different CMOS on different surfaces, and it was never even close. Using CMOS you always need to keep an eye on cursor and compensate sensor errors, you can't just throw the mouse in any needed direction and click the button even before you see where cursor is, because you are never sure where it will be next time. With PTE it's something common, it's how you always use it. And it's not the only critical difference.


I don't play that way.

Regardless of the error from CMOS sensors, I can compensate with my play-style. The issue is having to move in ways that might be fatiguing. The better the sensor the less effort is needed to correct. With the MLT or 3366 it's much easier to go where you want, but the MLT appears to be less accurate than the 3366.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> If you can't find new Spectre in stock, maybe it's worth to search for used one. If it's not an option, you have to choose between Razer mice with Dynamic DPI and Mad Catz mice with Sensor Dampening. I prefer Sensor Dampening here, because Dynamic DPI limits available cursor speeds and Sensor Dampening only makes them harder to achieve. In this case there is not much of a choice: Rat TE or Rat 5. TE is lighter and Dampening may be reduced (but I use it with "medium" dampening because it's easier to compensate), but its shell is fragile. Rat 5 is heavier, but aluminum plate makes it more robust and stable. If you want to get maximum from them, you should physically disconnect LEDs indicating profiles and sensitivity, but it's another story.
> 
> The idea is to use matte surface of glass. Probably thickness won't change a lot.


Poof, there goes my dream of trying out a dream sensor. I find shape and comfort equally as important as quality of the sensor and if I can't use the mouse pleasantly then what good does a good sensor do to me? Not much I tell you. I guess I'm going to get a Logitech G303 to use while I wait for the Ducky Secret mouse with the PBT shell.

But if someone someday makes a perfect and comfortable TPE mouse, I'm one of the first to buy it.


----------



## Ino.

I wonder if it is worth it to elaborate where Above8's "facts" or his reasoning are wrong. But I was hoping someone else would do that. Maybe if I find time in the next days.


----------



## ChromeBeauty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> Sadly, difference in performance is too big and this example is too far from reality. Knowing, what I can do with PTE, I tried my best to get all I could with different CMOS on different surfaces, and it was never even close. Using CMOS you always need to keep an eye on cursor and compensate sensor errors, you can't just throw the mouse in any needed direction and click the button even before you see where cursor is, because you are never sure where it will be next time. With PTE it's something common, it's how you always use it. And it's not the only critical difference.


Well I played with inferior mice since the days the still had those silly rubber balls in it, and I'm on the optical mice I think since the IntelliMouse Explorer(god is that long ago).
Now what you described can very well be turned around, I never consciously compensated sensor errors nor did I ever notice such, at beast you have error when you didn't clean mouse & surface, of course you also have to have a good mouse, I'm sure the problems you describe did and do hit users of really crap mice.
Personally I never had the feeling I had to search & correct before clicking, in my good times the movement I had to do to get where I want was just that perfect, there was no move/correct/click because I was sure where I was.

The big difference in performance that you feel is just that you got used to PTE and forgot how to handle mice with other sensors, it has a lot to do with memorizing movements and yours are surely calibrated to PTE. Its like you were driving with support wheels for the last 20 years and now you have to do it without, it's no surprise that you fall on your face when trying it.

Again it's a lot about what you are used to, what about the pro gamers out there do they all use PTE?
I doubt because they just get the performance they want & need out of what they found work out with their style, as said in the end it has to work out the best sensor in the world can't help if it does not work for you.
So for you it worked out with PTE but I doubt it would for me and the majority of the other mouse users out there.
I guess I might switch if I would do esports only, get payed for it and have to worry about my sponsors but unless that happens... I will start with the two 3366 mice from Logitech and work my way down the pyramid to find a new mouse that works for me.

@Ino.
Would be interesting if you could do that.


----------



## HiTechPixel

I hope that in the near future, one can build and/or assemble his/her own mouse just like you can a keyboard. It'd be neat, I think.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Razer Imperator 3.5G?


Sadly it has Dynamic DPI. But if you mostly play at low sens it shouldn't be a huge problem.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I don't play that way.


For sure, because you use CMOS sensor. I can't use them this way too. But even with Imperator it's not a big deal.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Regardless of the error from CMOS sensors, I can compensate with my play-style. The issue is having to move in ways that might be fatiguing. The better the sensor the less effort is needed to correct. With the MLT or 3366 it's much easier to go where you want, but the MLT appears to be less accurate than the 3366.


Even if you can compensate errors, it takes time end efforts which you could use to something else.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Poof, there goes my dream of trying out a dream sensor. I find shape and comfort equally as important as quality of the sensor and if I can't use the mouse pleasantly then what good does a good sensor do to me? Not much I tell you. I guess I'm going to get a Logitech G303 to use while I wait for the Ducky Secret mouse with the PBT shell.
> 
> But if someone someday makes a perfect and comfortable TPE mouse, I'm one of the first to buy it.


TE isn't perfect, but it's still way better than anything with CMOS. Especially if you use it on glass. Yes, you may have hard times with it playing Arma at high sens (10-15 cm/360), trying to place aim at target 200 m away while you need to compensate character's little hand shakes. But playing CS, QL or UT you won't likely even see it, especially at medium or low sensitivity. This is what Ino said about it in his review:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> There also seems to be some kind of path correction at higher CPI, but only with slow movements. At least that's how it felt to me. With the lower CPI settings (400/800 CPI) I didn't get that feeling.


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I wonder if it is worth it to elaborate where Above8's "facts" or his reasoning are wrong. But I was hoping someone else would do that. Maybe if I find time in the next days.


What exactly is doubtful for you still? Or can you contradict anything?

I personally doubted and tested it for a ling time before making public declaration. I say it on public because I've proven it a lot of times. I switched sensors back and forward, I've compared it with alternative tracking technologies like ball mice, opticheck, graphic tablets, touchpads and even gamepads. After such comparison it's possible to see a lot of flaws of every approach.

Ball mice have perfect accuracy, but speed and angles are limited by friction.

Graphics tablets are best in terms of accuracy and have no speed and other limits, but cost too much and are not adapted for FPS games for now.

Opticheck is more accurate and responsive than standard image correlation sensors, but has some speed errors, which I hope could be fixed, but these sensors are no more.

Touchpads are require heat, which makes them very inert, and sensitivity (DPI) is very low.

Gamepad sticks could be a descent input device if not their huge death zone and free motion, they are inert but accurate.

PTE like any other optical technologies drasticly depends on tracking surface, accuracy may vary from "good" to level of graphics tablets on right surface and with proper settings. Yes, there is Z-axis but, but it's easily avoidable.

CMOS sensors are least accurate of all these technologies, they have huge amounts of inaccuracies, angle errors and smoothing compared with all other approaches, which makes CMOS the only mistrustful tracking device.

By the way, have you already tried that speed targeting test?


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Well I played with inferior mice since the days the still had those silly rubber balls in it, and I'm on the optical mice I think since the IntelliMouse Explorer(god is that long ago).
> Now what you described can very well be turned around, I never consciously compensated sensor errors nor did I ever notice such, at beast you have error when you didn't clean mouse & surface, of course you also have to have a good mouse, I'm sure the problems you describe did and do hit users of really crap mice.
> Personally I never had the feeling I had to search & correct before clicking, in my good times the movement I had to do to get where I want was just that perfect, there was no move/correct/click because I was sure where I was.


Of course, it's obvious, it's impossible to understand which error is yours and which comes from sensor, especially if you are sure that your mouse is accurate no matter what.

Just compare any CMOS sensor with any ball mouse or any graphics tablet, you will understand what kind of errors I'm talking about.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> The big difference in performance that you feel is just that you got used to PTE and forgot how to handle mice with other sensors, it has a lot to do with memorizing movements and yours are surely calibrated to PTE. Its like you were driving with support wheels for the last 20 years and now you have to do it without, it's no surprise that you fall on your face when trying it.


You are wrong. I'm saying it for reason. I didn't believe it too. I've used every type of sensor I've seen. I accustomed to all of them and comparing them all I saw everyone's flaws. They all have different flaws, but this style of targeting is impossible only on CMOS sensors because they are least accurate and trustful of all other sensors.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> Again it's a lot about what you are used to, what about the pro gamers out there do they all use PTE?
> I doubt because they just get the performance they want & need out of what they found work out with their style, as said in the end it has to work out the best sensor in the world can't help if it does not work for you.


People don't know how to use it nobody told them how. People didn't like Z-axis bug, and sensor got bad reputation. That's all.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChromeBeauty*
> 
> So for you it worked out with PTE but I doubt it would for me and the majority of the other mouse users out there.
> I guess I might switch if I would do esports only, get payed for it and have to worry about my sponsors but unless that happens... I will start with the two 3366 mice from Logitech and work my way down the pyramid to find a new mouse that works for me.


I declare that PTE is better performance wise than CMOS, but I don't say it's the best solution for everyone. It's demanding, and not everyone is ready to sacrifice anything to achieve better result.


----------



## Ufasas

I've got RAT TE mouse, dunno about you guys, but it's not holding me down, i get a lot of frags in competitive games in csgo, like 30, usually i have 20 in MGE rank vs DMG, same many frags in q3 mod e+, and it tracks so excellent on aluminium exactmat until i do very sharp swipes and cursor freezes in game, after using mostly optical mice, i'm starting to change opinion about laser mice, at least for PTE.


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> I've got RAT TE mouse, dunno about you guys, but it's not holding me down, i get a lot of frags in competitive games in csgo, like 30, usually i have 20 in MGE rank vs DMG, same many frags in q3 mod e+, and it tracks so excellent on aluminium exactmat until i do very sharp swipes and cursor freezes in game, after using mostly optical mice, i'm starting to change opinion about laser mice, at least for PTE.


Doesn't the RAT TE have a set speed limit of 2.5 m/s or so?


----------



## Ufasas

Lol, yes it does, i sense it when i swipe too fast, as i wrote above. So i'm just trying to be careful haha, because i love it's performance below 2.5m speed, wheel too fragile though..


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> Yes. Even in spite of sensor in TE isn't raw and you can't completely disable sensor dampening.
> 
> 1-2 pixels per second at 1000 CPI. Its influence is minimal but it's still there.


How did you find about 1-2 pixels per second?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> How did you find about 1-2 pixels per second?


Just move the mouse extremely slowly. Don't move your hand, just unevenly squeeze on the mouse so that you can feel the mouse barely moving on the surface. Using a hard surface with lots of glide helps here. The cursor doesn't move at all on my PTE cm storm sentinel when I do this. If the mouse is moving but the cursor remains still on screen then this is a huge deal breaking flaw to me.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Just move the mouse extremely slowly. Don't move your hand, just unevenly squeeze on the mouse so that you can feel the mouse barely moving on the surface. Using a hard surface with lots of glide helps here. The cursor doesn't move at all on my PTE cm storm sentinel when I do this. If the mouse is moving but the cursor remains still on screen then this is a huge deal breaking flaw to me.


Can't tell, still moves -.- , btw did test


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> How did you find about 1-2 pixels per second?


After I played with all other options I found that it was related with extremely low LOD and power consumption. After I set power consumption to maximum and raised LOD this problem has gone. Sorry for this disinformation, I should mention it in this thread.

So in the end I can specify 5 mice with raw PTE:
Razer Lachesis 3G
Razer Spectre
Razer Naga 2014
Mad Catz R. A. T. TE
Mad Catz M. M. O. TE


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Just move the mouse extremely slowly. Don't move your hand, just unevenly squeeze on the mouse so that you can feel the mouse barely moving on the surface. Using a hard surface with lots of glide helps here. The cursor doesn't move at all on my PTE cm storm sentinel when I do this. If the mouse is moving but the cursor remains still on screen then this is a huge deal breaking flaw to me.


It means CM Storm Sentinel has Dynamic DPI. My CM Storm Inferno has it too.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> After I played with all other options I found that it was related with extremely low LOD and power consumption. After I set power consumption to maximum and raised LOD this problem has gone. Sorry for this disinformation, I should mention it in this thread.
> 
> So in the end I can specify 5 mice with raw PTE:
> Razer Lachesis 3G
> Razer Spectre
> Razer Naga 2014
> Mad Catz R. A. T. TE
> Mad Catz M. M. O. TE


You mean full power + 0.35mm for example


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> You mean full power + 0.35mm for example


I prefer 0.5 mm on frosted glass to be sure.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> I prefer 0.5 mm on frosted glass to be sure.


so what do i lose using TE on aluminium pad


----------



## 7onoff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> so what do i lose using TE on aluminium pad


Above8's blessing


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7onoff*
> 
> Above8's blessing


hahahhaha


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> so what do i lose using TE on aluminium pad


Which aluminium pad is this? They all have different surface. Small monotone texture will give more stable laser feedback, big rough texture will be less stable.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> Which aluminium pad is this? They all have different surface. Small monotone texture will give more stable laser feedback, big rough texture will be less stable.


Exactmat with both of your mentioned textures on 2 sides


----------



## Above8

PTE will definitely track it. Side with lesser texture is better for sure. But texture is still rough enough compared with laser beam. Manticor or Glide 9 would be better.


----------



## Above8

@Ufasas
This surface I use right now:

Chemically frosted glass 420x297x5 mm with polished edges, about $7-8 in a random glass workshop.


----------



## kv2004

Perixx MX-3000 using A9800. In Amazon.de it mentioned directly A9800 and in their homepage they didn't directly said A9800 but the 8200dpi/150ips/30G is clearly.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> @Ufasas
> This surface I use right now:
> 
> Chemically frosted glass 420x297x5 mm with polished edges, about $7-8 in a random glass workshop.


Perspex Acrylic Altuglas

Found one for 6.5 pound, optically clearer than glass, fits too?


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Perspex Acrylic Altuglas
> Found one for 6.5 pound, optically clearer than glass, fits too?


If surface is matte, it should work. I've chosen glass mainly because of its hardness, scratch resistance and durability. And frosted glass scatters light well.


----------



## Ufasas

I tried acrylic perspex one, i'd say both good, aluminium of smooth razer exactmat and this for PTE


----------



## Tivan

Been playing with this mad catz M.M.O. TE for the last 3 days and the sensor is great! I like it over my Deathadder 3.5BE. Also on my cloth pad.

Shape leaves something to be desired but it's not bad, maybe gonna pick up the R.A.T TE instead. Though I don't notice the minor annoyances I have with the shape while gaming.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tivan*
> 
> Been playing with this mad catz M.M.O. TE for the last 3 days and the sensor is great! I like it over my Deathadder 3.5BE. Also on my cloth pad.
> 
> Shape leaves something to be desired but it's not bad, maybe gonna pick up the R.A.T TE instead. Though I don't notice the minor annoyances I have with the shape while gaming.


Hehe, interesting. Right now when i switch to g502 , fk2, fk , torq x5, all the optical ones, and i know they have really good sensors, but they just doesn't cut well after trying TE! Is it just placebo, or what, but i am in love with this TE, got for 22 pounds! A STEAL!


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Hehe, interesting. Right now when i switch to g502 , fk2, fk , torq x5, all the optical ones, and i know they have really good sensors, but they just doesn't cut well after trying TE! Is it just placebo, or what, but i am in love with this TE, got for 22 pounds! A STEAL!


Geez, watch yourself here because the usual OCN crew shall be after you for mentioning something like this out loud.

When praising sensors like the MLT04, A3090, S3988, AM010, PMW3310, PMW3366 you shall be awarded the crown of STATUS here but now you have gone another route and praised an enemy of theirs, the dreaded "PTE" sensor







.

Let the arguments begin.........


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tivan*
> 
> Been playing with this mad catz M.M.O. TE for the last 3 days and the sensor is great!


Thought I would join the PTE crew as well (even though I don't ever "GAME" as you put it).

Bought one Mad Catz TE mouse off PLE's website, which was selling their 8200dpi model for $69.00AUD, go figure.

I'll see in a week or so how good this sensor is, even though I am happy when using my ancient BALL mouse







.


----------



## Derp

I didn't like much about the RAT TE. The shape isn't great for me (not as bad as G303 though). The cable is quite stiff and braided which translates to terrible in my book. The left click was sticky and mushy at the same time, I prefer the clicks on the g100s which are also bad, just not this bad. The glide is quite poor because the feet seem to be a harder than normal PTFE with sharper edges. The pad under the thumb rest was especially bad because it appeared to be at an angle and not flat.

The sensor without dampening felt better to me than any A9500 that I have tried. The speed related variance was quite good on a black aluminum pad. When I say it felt better I mean that I can aim more naturally and accurately or put my crosshair on my target faster. It "felt" better than the 3988 in the Evga X5. However I still prefer ICS sensors found in the G100s(AM010), G302(AM010+), G400(S3095), G303(PMW3366). Z-axis still obviously exists but the lower lift off distance has improved it. I would still consider PTE unusable on cloth pads because of it.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Geez, watch yourself here because the usual OCN crew shall be after you for mentioning something like this out loud.
> 
> When praising sensors like the MLT04, A3090, S3988, AM010, PMW3310, PMW3366 you shall be awarded the crown of STATUS here but now you have gone another route and praised an enemy of theirs, the dreaded "PTE" sensor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Let the arguments begin.........


:- ) Yeah, thats tricky, i feel the best with TE on aluminium as smooth as possible surface without dust, what a problem when some dust comes in a away of sensor, pure headache : B . My friend has Naga, I guess with PTE 2034 or 2033 too, it's not a fps mouse, but he is way better with it than me with rat te in cs go hehe. Still not saying those praised optical sensors are bad for competitive play, they are really good, just what i've tested now, does a very good job and is not limiting me in fps games like mice with 3988 3366 etc didn't limit too. I would recommend try this mouse out IF you find it 2-3x times cheaper and in a very good condition. And if you have other mice with 3988 33.. and you are happy, no need to look elsewhere


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tivan*
> 
> Been playing with this mad catz M.M.O. TE for the last 3 days and the sensor is great! I like it over my Deathadder 3.5BE. Also on my cloth pad.
> 
> Shape leaves something to be desired but it's not bad, maybe gonna pick up the R.A.T TE instead. Though I don't notice the minor annoyances I have with the shape while gaming.


I wonder which cloth pad do you use it on.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Hehe, interesting. Right now when i switch to g502 , fk2, fk , torq x5, all the optical ones, and i know they have really good sensors, but they just doesn't cut well after trying TE! Is it just placebo, or what, but i am in love with this TE, got for 22 pounds! A STEAL!


It's not a placebo, try fast handwriting with different sensors and you will see the difference clearly.

I applied some black glossy tape/sticker on bottom side of glass, tracking become even more stable and accurate. Seems like there was some kind on interference.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I didn't like much about the RAT TE. The shape isn't great for me (not as bad as G303 though). The cable is quite stiff and braided which translates to terrible in my book.


Cable braiding may be easily removed with cuticle scissors, it will make it more flexible. I already did it with my one.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> The left click was sticky and mushy at the same time, I prefer the clicks on the g100s which are also bad, just not this bad.


There are Omron China, so switch characteristics depend no your luck: http://www.overclock.net/t/1558289/design-a-new-mouse/420#post_24083124
If you want a better click, you should try Omron Japan D2F-01F.

Also it may depend on finger position which will always be personal http://www.overclock.net/t/1562937/is-that-just-a-bad-steelseries-rival-or-all-rival-are-like-that-need-help-from-rival-users
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> The glide is quite poor because the feet seem to be a harder than normal PTFE with sharper edges. The pad under the thumb rest was especially bad because it appeared to be at an angle and not flat.


Try polishing them on anything hard, for example on table. But don't push mouse down too strong, it's better to polish them in natural position.

I don't use stock mouse feet anyway http://www.overclock.net/t/1559693/best-hard-pad-for-a-pte-sensor-mouse#post_24020742
You could also try custom mouse feet. But keep in mind, that if you plan using mouse on soft surface, you'll need large mouse feet.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> The sensor without dampening felt better to me than any A9500 that I have tried. The speed related variance was quite good on a black aluminum pad. When I say it felt better I mean that I can aim more naturally and accurately or put my crosshair on my target faster. It "felt" better than the 3988 in the Evga X5. However I still prefer ICS sensors found in the G100s(AM010), G302(AM010+), G400(S3095), G303(PMW3366). Z-axis still obviously exists but the lower lift off distance has improved it.


In software set Power consumption to maximum. Then disable Mad Catz software (with task manager), it affects tracking a lot. Seems like mouse don't have onboard memory, and software overrides mouse input.

Also any mouse and any sensor needs some getting used to.

And I wonder, which mouse pad you are using it on.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I would still consider PTE unusable on cloth pads because of it.


I've used Lachesis 3G and Imperator 3.5G on cloth for a couple of years without problems.

It's definitely better to use it on hard surface. Every optical sensor works better on hard. But it doesn't mean you can't use it on cloth.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> There are Omron China, so switch characteristics depend no your luck: http://www.overclock.net/t/1558289/design-a-new-mouse/420#post_24083124
> If you want a better click, you should try Omron Japan D2F-01F.


It's probably a build quality issue with the button levers and the shell and not the micro switch.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> In software set Power consumption to maximum. Then disable Mad Catz software (with task manager), it affects tracking a lot. Seems like mouse don't have onboard memory, and software overrides mouse input.


I had it set to maximum power with dampening set to disabled and I also closed the software with task manager. Are you sure the RAT TE doesn't have onboard memory? If it doesn't have onboard memory then closing the software should reset the settings to default which would re-enable dampening.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Above8*
> 
> And I wonder, which mouse pad you are using it on.


The pad that I used is a cheap aluminum pad with very fine texture. This is the pad (not my video) :


----------



## Above8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> It's probably a build quality issue with the button levers and the shell and not the micro switch.


It's not excepted. Plastic used in Rat TE is softer than in G100s, maybe this is what you didn't like.

Anyway, such comparison will never be objective with cheap D2FC-F-7N, they have huge tolerances. Tolerance between Chinese Omrons may be bigger than difference in build quality/materials/construction.

And I like D2F-01F in Rat more than D2FC-F-7N in G100s.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I had it set to maximum power with dampening set to disabled and I also closed the software with task manager. Are you sure the RAT TE doesn't have onboard memory? If it doesn't have onboard memory then closing the software should reset the settings to default which would re-enable dampening.


Mouse "remembers" only 4 levels of CPI and Precision aim multiplier. All key remaps and macros are done by software. Like in case of Razer Synapse.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> The pad that I used is a cheap aluminum pad with very fine texture. This is the pad (not my video) :


Looks like it has some tiny shiny dots which may interfere light scattering and cause some tracking instability.

But anyway "I can aim more naturally and accurately or put my crosshair on my target faster" and "I still prefer ICS sensors found in the G100s" sounds weird for me. Try using Rat for a couple of days, get used to it's singularities, try to set max CPI with lower in-game sensitivity. Then switch back to G100s. I'm pretty sure you'll end with something like this http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list/1170#post_24145676

Fast handwriting in MS Paint is a simple test/way to see the difference. You know what path you want mouse to do, you know what path did your hand do and you see which part of it sensor have seen/done. And then compare, which one will be closer to your handwriting with pen/pencil. By the way, keep in mind difference in monitor DPI (which is usually about 100) and mouse CPI.


----------



## Ufasas

Woa. PLN2037 new dual eye sensor in RAT Pro X, and you can swap it's sensor to Avago laser sensor and some other sensor, amazing


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Woa. PLN2037 new dual eye sensor in RAT Pro X, and you can swap it's sensor to Avago laser sensor and some other sensor, amazing


interdasting

so which has the newer te sensor... this or the new mamba

http://www.ncix.com/detail/mad-catz-r-a-t-pro-x-14-107402.htm
k 200$ no thx. not sure what actual price will be


----------



## Derp

I'm surprised they didn't go fully customizable with optional and detachable cable and switches. If it's actually $200 I don't see many people paying that much regardless of the magnesium alloy frame and carbon fiber grips. Future sensor upgrades sounds pretty cool but that requires mad catz to continue supporting the product in another year or two when a new one comes out.


----------



## Melan

Looks hideous as much as previous rats. Do not want.


----------



## Maximillion

I never understood how Mad Catz justifies their prices. The TE mice are probably their best performing products yet ironically the cheapest. And the whole point of being able to swap sensors is to get your sensor of choice in a shell you actually like, so that whole "feature" is somewhat redundant.

@Above8 will probably have several sequential orgasms when he can try out that PLN2037, though


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I never understood how Mad Catz justifies their prices. The TE mice are probably their best performing products yet ironically the cheapest. And the whole point of being able to swap sensors is to get your sensor of choice in a shell you actually like, so that whole "feature" is somewhat redundant.
> 
> @Above8 will probably have several sequential orgasms when he can try out that PLN2037, though


I have orgasms in whatever i do, hahahaha. Well once somebody resell this as used and low price, i'll be happy to try it out







Hehehe 200usd, like razer ouroboros, ridiculous indeed.


----------



## Ufasas

http://www.zeus.marsgaming.eu/products/mmze1.html ? 3310? 250 dpi steppings

PS. Ah they replied, it's 3050 adns


----------



## rlywhocares

can same mouse sensor have different dpi switching options? e.g. this mouse http://world.taobao.com/item/36203719636.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a230r.1.14.1.LzaZSI&ns=1&abbucket=14&sku that was advised to me in this thread is claimed to have a3090. how come it has 1000-1800-3500 switches when other mice with this sensor have dpi switches starting from 800 ?


----------



## qsxcv

could be
-srom version. one version is 1800/3500cpi, other one (6x) is 400/800/1600/3200/4000
-non-standard lenses with different magnification ratios
-mcu and/or driver scaling

in this case probably it's using the first srom and 1000cpi is created by scaling


----------



## rlywhocares

is it good, bad or doens't matter?

i have 1 a3090 mouse & i like sensor behaviour (not lod though...) but don't like shape & dimensions so i'm hoping this little animal will fit me better.

can this feel like completely different sensor & like i will get not what i'm chasing for?


----------



## qsxcv

maybe. i know that's not very helpful, but the thing is that a lot of things can affect how a mouse feels (srom, configuration, firmware, illumination, etc...). but usually "good" implementations of a sensor feel similar.


----------



## rlywhocares

it is helpful. i understand that i shouldn't expect too much from this purchase. that i will understand how good it is only if i try it out


----------



## bkraptor

G100s bought bulk has a new AM010 revision N1321T. PCB has identical layout with an older G100s (first batch probably), but different markings on the PCB. Clicks are noticeably softer than the older G100s, although the switch model is the same D2FC-F-7N(20M) on both mice.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> revision N1321T


pretty sure those are like manufacturing dates/years and stuff. maybe not but mine says n1317t


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Woll3 or skylit have mentioned what the numbers meant once or twice. All I can remember though is that it was nothing too important. Anyway, 2 n1301t's here.

Edit: Your pcb has the Jan/03/2013 date I have on mine. I think it's just shell build quality variance. The dpi button my non dead one was scraping against the shell horribly, but I already fixed that. The dead one made a horrible squeak out of the box but that went away after use.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Was it ever possible for the s3668 to be public like the s3998 is?


----------



## qsxcv

found this old post
http://www.overclock.net/t/1181553/mouse-design/20#post_15907876


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> found this old post
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1181553/mouse-design/20#post_15907876


Yeah, saw that before. One of those things where you hope there was a much bigger explanation. Oh well.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> where you hope there was a much bigger explanation.


For what?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Uhhhh, why in the **** do I have a Diamondback with a *A3060* sensor in it? I have never seen this revision before. I didn't even know these existed.

It's legit too.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Uhhhh, why in the **** do I have a Diamondback with a *A3060* sensor in it? I have never seen this revision before. I didn't even know these existed.
> 
> It's legit too.


Must be pretty early stuff with 3070 srom.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Yeah, will upload pics once I get some time. The pcb has different version numbers, and still uses the Cypress MCU


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Did a peripheral maker ever put a CYONS2100 or 2101 in a mouse? Those were the designated "gaming" versions of that sensor by Cypress.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Could file this under "trivia about old mice no one cares about".



On release, the Cyborg R.A.T 3 originally had the CYONS1002 sensor. It was replaced with a PTE sensor in mid 2012.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> ........


Well, i need to look into it because there might be an A6090 Version as well, specimen arrives next week.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Well, i need to look into it because there might be an A6090 Version as well, specimen arrives next week.


Coincidentally I have a Cyborg v3(3200dpi might be a cyons1002 too) along with a kana v1 arriving next week. Should be interesting.

By the way, was the Raidmax Hoorai GM1100 any good? It looks exactly like the f2020. I have been having trouble though getting German ebay sellers to give me the time of day so I can have it shipped overseas.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> By the way, was the Raidmax Hoorai GM1100 any good? It looks exactly like the f2020. I have been having trouble though getting German ebay sellers to give me the time of day so I can have it shipped overseas.


It was exactly the same as F2020, maybe try Amazon, last time i checked they had a few for 13€.


----------



## qsxcv

@op
evga torq x3l-adns9500 (http://www.evga.com/mice/TORQ-X3-Laser/)


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Hope you have better luck woll3, the saitek cyborg v3 turned out to be using a A7550 office sensor.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Hope you have better luck woll3, the saitek cyborg v3 turned out to be using a A7550 office sensor.


Well, i had, but now i am confused af, but considering how RAT3 was made/born/thrown up nothing surprises me anymore. Seems like those were dark times for Saitek. :>


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

These ones contain CYONS sensors for sure though:

Fuhlen G100 = cyons2000

I Rocks IM1-WE (IR-7801) = cyons2000

Fuhlen U55 = cyons2001

Canyon 502 = cyons1002

I'm also assuming now that no peripheral maker used ovationONS II sensor in a mouse, which I found disappointing.

Data sheet:
http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Cypress%20PDFs/CYONS2100.pdf


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

So what's the story on rapoo? They do their own thing? I ask because their internals are refreshing to look at after seeing so much ODM stuff.


----------



## qsxcv

interesting their website looks quite non-chinese

but isnt it likely theyre an odm themselves?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> @op
> evga torq x3l-adns9500 (http://www.evga.com/mice/TORQ-X3-Laser/)


Has the current BEST mouse cable available, the same feel and thickness as a Razer Abyssus Cable, go figure







.


----------



## qsxcv

my stripped da cable is better (more flexible and thinner)


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Oh the x3 laser cord? That thing was awful.


----------



## qsxcv

better than logitech's


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Oh the x3 laser cord? That thing was awful.


Don't know which cable you got but mine is perfect like Abyssus's, very supple and flexible.


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Noob questiom sorry:

Do the letters after the sensor name matter at all? EG: PMW3110H vs PMW3310


----------



## qsxcv

no woll3's just inconsistent









also sometimes you'll see some companies/people say "avago 3310". that's a complete misnomer and they're referring to the same thing as the pixart pmw3310. (pixart bought/acquired/whatever-you-call-it avago's technologies around 2012. 3310 was released after that, so there has never been an avago 3310)


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Cool kids call it Agilent 3310


----------



## Soo8

IIRC the letters at the back correspond to a specific physical change. I was looking at a couple 3020 sensors (non-dh and dh) and the pin length is different on those. So the sensor sits a smitch higher on the pcb.
So there is virtualy no difference apart from that the manufacturer has more flexibility designing the mouse.


----------



## qsxcv

3020?


----------



## Soo8

Whoops. I meant 3305. I forgot the sensor model.


----------



## qsxcv

i see, but i think for 3310 there's only pmw3310dh


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no woll3's just inconsistent


*lazy, especially considering that OCN´s Editor sometimes ignores my pasting making me type everything by hand or editing source in Text Editor for larger additions. Just minor Details anyway.


----------



## paprika88

by the way thanks for making this!

would you mind if I made a PDF of this for easy offline access?

also
what sensor does this use? Is it Doppler Shift?
short description here:
_-Not to be confused with X7 X-760H. X-760H is optical while XL-760H has a twin eye grade 1 Laser sensor and 3600 DPI as compared to 2000 DPI of X-760H._
http://www.game-debate.com/mouse/index.php?mo_id=513&mouse=X7%20XL-760H


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paprika88*
> 
> by the way thanks for making this!
> 
> would you mind if I made a PDF of this for easy offline access?
> 
> also
> what sensor does this use? Is it Doppler Shift?
> short description here:
> -Not to be confused with X7 X-760H. X-760H is optical while XL-760H has a twin eye grade 1 Laser sensor and 3600 DPI as compared to 2000 DPI of X-760H.
> http://www.game-debate.com/mouse/index.php?mo_id=513&mouse=X7%20XL-760H


I dont mind, as for your question, the old laser A4Tech are using A6010.


----------



## qsxcv

woll3 do you know whether 3320 is more similar to g100s or g302/g402 for smoothing?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> IIRC the letters at the back correspond to a specific physical change. I was looking at a couple 3020 sensors (non-dh and dh) and the pin length is different on those. So the sensor sits a smitch higher on the pcb.
> So there is virtualy no difference apart from that the manufacturer has more flexibility designing the mouse.


There were two different lens magnification offerings for the 3305. The Kinzu and Kana used the 3305, but the lens was different.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> woll3 do you know whether 3320 is more similar to g100s or g302/g402 for smoothing?


I would guess it's more like the G100S than Logitech's SROM.

I'm not sure if custom SROMs are property of the customer or under exclusivity contract periods like the sensor is.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> woll3 do you know whether 3320 is more similar to g100s or g302/g402 for smoothing?


It has options in that regard.


----------



## qsxcv

different sroms (like 3090's angle snapping sroms) or is it configurable by the registers?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

A question that interests me would be how they pitch it to them, or if they even do it at all.

Oversimplification, but I have the feeling they just tell the contracted company "don't worry we got the small details, just focus on image and advertising".


----------



## qsxcv

well im pretty sure no one outside of logitech and us crazy people care about minimal amounts of smoothing


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

omg i can't believe i missed this. someone had actually posted pics proving the early cyborg r.a.t 3 had the cyons2001 sensor.










Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








So that was the lone gaming mouse to have a cyons2001. Gonna have to track one down myself now.

also lol zhij switches.

edit: definitely gonna track one of these down now


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> omg i can't believe i missed this. someone had actually posted pics proving the early cyborg r.a.t 3 had the cyons2001 sensor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So that was the lone gaming mouse to have a cyons2001. Gonna have to track one down myself now.
> 
> also lol zhij switches.
> 
> edit: definitely gonna track one of these down now


So what was the maximum sensor "DPI" listing for this model of Mouse?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

3200 dpi. I have no high hopes for this mouse at all, but I still have to try it.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> So that was the lone gaming mouse to have a cyons2001. Gonna have to track one down myself now.


Still, the questions of when & why remain, considering that everything that was available at the time has been used at one point.


----------



## Ufasas

http://gi.esmplus.com/gepimage4/2015/10/1016/M50_02.jpg

can you add gtune m50 orion with 3310 PMW, gtune m80 with A3050

http://gi.esmplus.com/gepimage4/2015/6/0603/a/M80-1.jpg


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> http://gi.esmplus.com/gepimage4/2015/10/1016/M50_02.jpg
> 
> can you add gtune m50 orion with 3310 PMW, gtune m80 with A3050
> 
> http://gi.esmplus.com/gepimage4/2015/6/0603/a/M80-1.jpg


They are on the list since a while ago.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> They are on the list since a while ago.


I see here only Hansung
GTune M40/42 PMW3310


----------



## woll3

I only say Newmen. :>


----------



## Ufasas

Can you add these too:

http://www.crossupshin.com/comkorea/Hansung/M85/Hansung-GTune-M85-Black-White-4-Level-DPI-6600FPS-Gaming-Mouse_07.jpg
http://www.crossupshin.com/comkorea/Hansung/M85/Hansung-GTune-M85-Black-White-4-Level-DPI-6600FPS-Gaming-Mouse_06.jpg

http://www.crossupshin.com/comkorea/Hansung/M99/Hansung-GTune-M99-4000DPI-6600FPS-USB-Gaming-Mouse_06.jpg
http://www.crossupshin.com/comkorea/Hansung/M99/Hansung-GTune-M99-4000DPI-6600FPS-USB-Gaming-Mouse_08.jpg
http://www.crossupshin.com/comkorea/Hansung/M99/Hansung-GTune-M99-4000DPI-6600FPS-USB-Gaming-Mouse_07.jpg

http://www.crossupshin.com/comkorea/Hansung/GTune%20M90/Hansung-GTune-M90-4000DPI-6400FPS-USB-Gaming-Mouse_01.jpg

Ah god damn, there is one normal directory with all of them







i became lazy:

http://www.crossupshin.com/comkorea/Hansung/

GTune M90/
...
M104/
M17/
M20/
M42/
M50/
M85/
M99/

but 3090 and m40/m42 3310 mice look nice


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

If only they could use 3320 or 3366 :C


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Was the pln2030 that bad, or was it just because it ended up in stuff like the Radon 3K? Became curious and all I'm seeing is horror stories about it(well the mice that had it).


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Was the pln2030 that bad, or was it just because it ended up in stuff like the Radon 3K? Became curious and all I'm seeing is horror stories about it(well the mice that had it).


Horror stories as in?

Its just PLN with limited malfunction speed.

On a sidenote: http://www.xzai.de/?p=1143

Thanks for mentioning the source whoever you are...


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Horror stories as in?
> 
> Its just PLN with limited malfunction speed.
> 
> On a sidenote: http://www.xzai.de/?p=1143
> 
> Thanks for mentioning the source whoever you are...


Yeah the horror stories mostly related to sensor deaths, random disconnects, y axis would stop working etc etc. So that would fall under build quality issues I guess then.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Yeah the horror stories mostly related to sensor deaths, random disconnects, y axis would stop working etc etc. So that would fall under build quality issues I guess then.


Nah, thats just PLN.


----------



## agnolech

sorry for my english , is not my native languague.

For me, in my subjetive opinion the twin eye is the best sensor on the market by far, do not make the mistake I made. in the past I was also a believer in the religion of Internet gaming mice . I bought several mice with Avago sensors, but i can not adapt to them. the movement felt totally false , as if the cursor flew above the screen.
If you do a simply test on the paint , you can see the difference with the twin eye . the sensor tracks perfecly always without jitters using any dpi, and without acceleration...

i am a regular player mount and blade warband , a much more demanding game with the mouse to any shooter ,and the CRPG mod where are the players with the highest level of skill play, with which using my rat 7 i could rival ..... with the Avago sensors i did not know what i was doing , i felt like a noob, and i try it for two years....but when i return to the twin eye i noticed that i was lossing my time....

also I have a friend who plays regularly on my pc to bad company 2 and has no idea on mice or sensors and totally agrees with me . The rat 7 is a superior mouse, because their sensor and how he tracks, and because their click click buttons that give you perfect control in shot to shot.

The only glich is the z-axis, ( i think that in the new versions they have pach this problem) but it dont happen when you lift the mouse in movement, only when you do stationary and verticaly ,something that never happens in games... and surprise, if you try the same movement with any other mouse the same thing happens because you cant lift it verticaly prefect.
And if the mouse stop working properly, or tracks bad, you only had one thing to do: ¡¡¡¡¡¡ cleaning the sensor !!!! its not broke, only dirty.


----------



## qsxcv

interesting, what dpi/sensitivity do you use?


----------



## agnolech

and other myth, if you put a game, and play it with low dpi, and you move your mouse slowly, you can notice that it moves like a sawtooths, it makes small jumps. looks like they are unnoticiable in the beginning, but...

If you put your in game in minimal sensivity and high dpi, it works like a antialising, the game is smooth. In the high lightning rotational movements of the mount and blade : warband you can notice this perfecly and helps takes away headaches and gave you better vision of what are you doing.

There was a video in youtube explaining this in a game, but the video has now disaperar or i dont find it.

Try by yourself, open a game with low dpi and search graphic line in a corner of the screen,( on the edge) , and move the mouse slowly, and you can notice how the line disapears in the border of the screen doing small jumps, now put the game with low sensivity and high dpi and that dont happens...


----------



## paprika88

the twin eye lift off issue from what i can tell is pretty well fixed on the new mamba.
The problem with twin eye imo are the mouses its found in. If its on a razer mouse its usually too costly or the shape is peculiar.

I guess right now we just have to wait another 2 or so years until its available on budget mouses, but by then I think sensors won't be an issue anymore.

I'm actually disappointed that mad cats didn't use it in one of their newer mouse.
would have liked it on the R.A.T.1 for example.

I like the idea of having two sensors to track both x and y axis it feels like it can devote focus on both better. Idk why. I guess its like asking someone to just perfect one thing instead of trying to be a jack of all trades.

So developing a sensor that tries to be the best at tracking in a straight line is easier than trying to take snapshots of the entire terrain ... (not sure how it works though).


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> and other myth, if you put a game, and play it with low dpi, and you move your mouse slowly, you can notice that it moves like a sawtooths, it makes small jumps. looks like they are unnoticiable in the beginning, but...
> 
> If you put your in game in minimal sensivity and high dpi, it works like a antialising, the game is smooth. In the high lightning rotational movements of the mount and blade : warband you can notice this perfecly and helps takes away headaches and gave you better vision of what are you doing.
> 
> There was a video in youtube explaining this in a game, but the video has now disaperar or i dont find it.
> 
> Try by yourself, open a game with low dpi and search graphic line in a corner of the screen,( on the edge) , and move the mouse slowly, and you can notice how the line disapears in the border of the screen doing small jumps, now put the game with low sensivity and high dpi and that dont happens...


Oh hey, you seem familiar...

This is well known and covered in the "overview of mouse technology" here http://www.overclock.net/t/1251156/an-overview-of-mouse-technology#user_v

However there is a value of "enough CPI" or also called "estimated useful CPI". So with lower sens (cm/360) you can use lower CPI steps without the effect you described.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paprika88*
> 
> the twin eye lift off issue from what i can tell is pretty well fixed on the new mamba.
> The problem with twin eye imo are the mouses its found in. If its on a razer mouse its usually too costly or the shape is peculiar.


Obv. lower lod mitigates the symptoms.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paprika88*
> 
> I guess right now we just have to wait another 2 or so years until its available on budget mouses, but by then I think sensors won't be an issue anymore.


Sensors are only part of the "issue".

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paprika88*
> 
> I like the idea of having two sensors to track both x and y axis it feels like it can devote focus on both better. Idk why. I guess its like asking someone to just perfect one thing instead of trying to be a jack of all trades.
> 
> So developing a sensor that tries to be the best at tracking in a straight line is easier than trying to take snapshots of the entire terrain ... (not sure how it works though).


Thats not really the "point" of twin eye, the "tech" can only read one axis because of the way it functions, and it was probably a necessity in comparison to other navigation products.


----------



## agnolech

You're talking about technology, but the difference between the two is like comparing a bow with a rifle....

how long have you been using the twin eye sensor?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> You're talking about technology, but the difference between the two is like comparing a bow with a rifle....


More like the difference between standard Cartridge´s and Caseless Ammunition.


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> interesting, what dpi/sensitivity do you use?


http://s12.postimg.org/txsxcfqgd/waband_sensy.jpg

This is what i do. Correct me if I'm wrong

Ever with 6/11 in windows

My sens is 6 inch / 360º

So i have 60º per 1 inch , and 90º each 1,5 inch

The fov is 90º and 1650 pixels my resolution
So in 360º i have 6600 pixels.

6600 pixels / 6 inch = 1100 CPI (in 60º)

So , in 90º i have 1650 CPI (6600pix / 4 or 1100* 1.5 inch) .... as in the resolution of the screen , in a game when I move the cursor 90 degrees above the matrix, , i have moved 1650 pixels , and my mouse have track 1650 CPI. Thats 1/ 1 movement i think

what I do is put the cpi and the resolution at the same value , and then move the sensitivity in the game to reach 6 inch / 360º

i,m wrong?


----------



## ChronoBodi

Just curious, Hori released a mouse, the Hori Edge 101 with 3988 sensor. Add that to the list?


----------



## agnolech

"More like the difference between standard Cartridge´s and Caseless Ammunition."

I repeat my question .... how long have you been using the twin eye sensor? or your opinion is based on prejudices..

I used both technologies for years, and for me the difference is huge, abysmal

if you want fake movement with the cursor flying over the screen with aceleraccion, jitters and angle snapping, then buy the avago / pixart.

If you want a superior technology, a real laser mouse, with a great feeling and reaction , buy the twin eye... it is not placebo as someone said pages back , simply tracks better


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> "More like the difference between standard Cartridge´s and Caseless Ammunition."
> 
> I repeat my question .... how long have you been using the twin eye sensor? or your opinion is based on prejudices..
> 
> I used both technologies for years, and for me the difference is huge, abysmal
> 
> if you want fake movement with the cursor flying over the screen with aceleraccion, jitters and angle snapping, then buy the avago / pixart.
> 
> If you want a superior technology, a real laser mouse, with a great feeling and reaction , buy the twin eye... it is not placebo as someone said pages back , simply tracks better


"Superior technology" and "Laser mouse" should never go in the same sentence, take this from someone that owned a Mamba from 2012-2014. I wouldn't consider it superior if it has z-axis errors that cause a pixel to pixel stair stepping, super high lift-off distance, and acceleration.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> "Superior technology" and "Laser mouse" should never go in the same sentence, take this from someone that owned a Mamba from 2012-2014. I wouldn't consider it superior if it has z-axis errors that cause a pixel to pixel stair stepping, super high lift-off distance, and acceleration.


That's a very specific case though, the RAT TEs only downside was the lower pcs compared to high end optical, z-axis was a non issue and lod was the lowest of any mouse I've ever had. Oh and also the shape was terribad.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> That's a very specific case though, the RAT TEs only downside was the lower pcs compared to high end optical, z-axis was a non issue and lod was the lowest of any mouse I've ever had. Oh and also the shape was terribad.


How high was the PCS exactly? If it's ~2.5m/s it's pretty miserably low and I wouldn't really even consider that "superior technology" regardless of the situation if the PCS is that low. (Don't get me wrong here, if I can be told wrong about laser mice I'm happy to be told wrong, but every laser mouse I tried was dreadfully bad. Maybe there's a decent one out there.)

EDIT: Considering that the Twin Eye has gone up 2 versions, the z-axis problem might have been fixed but I know it existed before in the 2032 that I had with my Mamba. I got it before the 2012 edition came out, though, so long ago.


----------



## Ino.

It was capped at 3.3 m/s pcs, max tracking was much higher, so it did not spaz out like a G100s does at 2.7 m/s. I only realized when specifically testing for it. New PLN in a good shell would be something I could see myself using.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It was capped at 3.3 m/s pcs, max tracking was much higher, so it did not spaz out like a G100s does at 2.7 m/s. I only realized when specifically testing for it. New PLN in a good shell would be something I could see myself using.


Surely as a laser mouse it has inherent acceleration, right? Or has that been minimized to the point where it's barely noticeable? 3.3m/s is pretty dreadful but if it doesn't malfunction when I flick then it's fine, I suppose. The twin eye sensor in the Mamba was pretty decent, it definitely wasn't superior to the SDNS-3988 I'm using right now though, if I could find a twin eye with a mamba-esque shape (or even better, an ambi DA shape) without the z-axis problem and the acceleration minimized to an amount where it's not really noticeable along with the lift-off distance being fixed, which apparently can be changed in the software so maybe dumb kid me decided to put it all the way up for god knows why then I'd be willing to give it another shot myself.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Surely as a laser mouse it has inherent acceleration, right? Or has that been minimized to the point where it's barely noticeable? 3.3m/s is pretty dreadful but if it doesn't malfunction when I flick then it's fine, I suppose. The twin eye sensor in the Mamba was pretty decent, it definitely wasn't superior to the SDNS-3988 I'm using right now though, if I could find a twin eye with a mamba-esque shape (or even better, an ambi DA shape) without the z-axis problem and the acceleration minimized to an amount where it's not really noticeable along with the lift-off distance being fixed, which apparently can be changed in the software so maybe dumb kid me decided to put it all the way up for god knows why then I'd be willing to give it another shot myself.


Laser having inherent accel is a myth, it was only one specific architecture (A9500 and A9800) that had a high speed related accuracy variance which was commonly referred to as accel. Those are CMOS sensors, so the basic principle of movement detection between those and Twin Eye is completely different. Afaik Twin Eye never had that problem and the speed related accuracy variance has always been great with them.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Laser having inherent accel is a myth, it was only one specific architecture (A9500 and A9800) that had a high speed related accuracy variance which was commonly referred to as accel. Those are CMOS sensors, so the basic principle of movement detection between those and Twin Eye is completely different. Afaik Twin Eye never had that problem and the speed related accuracy variance has always been great with them.


Acceleration in the Mamba might have been a firmware issue then because I never updated the firmware myself as far as I can remember back and I definitely had it set to "1" and also "Off" in Synapse (hell, maybe even Synapse was the culprit. I doubt it, but maybe), but I never really read much about firmware problems with it since I have long since moved on from it, I started getting the double click issue so there was no point for me to keep it at that point anyway though.


----------



## Ino.

Mamba had dynamic dpi iirc, meaning low dpi at low speeds to mitigate z-axis, that might have caused some troubles.


----------



## Alya

Whatever it was, I didn't like the implementation of it in the Razer Mamba and the z-axis error apparently still persists in the Tournament Edition. If you pick the Mamba up and put it down, and you keep doing that, it slowly moves to the bottom right of the screen, it might just be bad sensor implementation.


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Whatever it was, I didn't like the implementation of it in the Razer Mamba and the z-axis error apparently still persists in the Tournament Edition. If you pick the Mamba up and put it down, and you keep doing that, it slowly moves to the bottom right of the screen, it might just be bad sensor implementation.


Actually the Z axis issue has a direct relation with the technology that Philips uses in that sensor. You cant solve the z axis issue with that kind of implementation, but there are ways to make it less apparent.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> I repeat my question .... how long have you been using the twin eye sensor?


No, when new mice arrive i eat them and judge according to how they taste.

Everything has its advantages and disadvantages somewhere in some way, and frankly im tired of seeing "Sensor-Jihadi's" trying to prove that "their" tech is superior, not to mention that this topic has beaten to death before anyway.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Lachesis 3G? You're cool.

Every single other mouse with a twin eye sensor in it? Die.

That is all.

ps I'd still rather use other mice over the lachesis 3G


----------



## M1st

Any info on Corsair Katar? It has optical sensor and they boast 8000 dpi, which doesnt make any sense unless it's extrapolated 4000.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

A3090 with interpolated 8000dpi and 16ms button lag, turning off the lights requires corsair software running


----------



## M1st

Ok, thx for info.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

The mythical Eris H2 and the A6098.
Quote:


> Expected time to market: the fourth quarter of 2008


It was removed quietly from their site around late 2010. I doubt it was ever released.
Quote:


> Features
> - 9 buttons mouse
> 
> - All the buttons are programmable, including scrolling up and down
> 
> - Hardware build-in 4 profiles
> - 41 different functions in Eris H2 at the same time by profile switch
> 
> - Keyboard letter keep shooting function: adjustabler numbers and delay time
> 
> - Mouse buttons keep shooting function: adjustabler numbers and delay time
> 
> - Build-in 15 Macors(124 byte) and 5 different executing way
> 
> - Build-in 8 Scripts (256 byte~ 1K),and 8 different executing way
> - Macro/ Script import and export function, esay to share your idea.
> - All new sensor switch on/ off function
> - Build-in hardware data store tech
> 
> - 10 level adjustable USB report rate: 100~1,000 Hz
> 
> - Green mouse toolkit, no install issue
> - Macro/ Script Cleaner program
> 
> Spec
> Outlook
> Standard 5 buttons with one 3D button and one independent button, 9 buttons totally.
> DPI indicator 4 blue LED
> Profile indicator Green, red LED
> 
> Engine Hades-Gaming only, Avago ADNS6098 LASER engine
> Reame rate 7200 frame/sec (FPS)
> Tracking speed 65 inch/sec (IPS)
> 
> Acceleration
> 20 G
> Resolution 100 ~ 3,200 CPI
> USB report rate 100~1,000 Hz
> 
> Cable 1.2 M, gold plate USB
> Weight 5 pcs 5 grame weight
> Certificate
> 
> CE, FCC, BSMI, Eye safty


----------



## woll3

Quoted myself, gg.

Edit:

Who stole my Edit Button?


----------



## ifox

Bloody A4tech
new model

T5 [T50]
T7 [T70]
TL8 (8200 CPI)
TL6 (8200 CPI)
TL7 (8200 CPI)
TL8 (8200 CPI)
TL9 (8200 CPI)
ML16 (8200 CPI)
N5 [N50]


----------



## Dreyka

@Woll3

Corsair Scimitar = S3988

DreamMachine DM1 Pro = PMW-3310DH

DreamMachine DM2 Comfy = PMW-3310DH

Cooler Master Sentinel 3 = S3988

Gigabyte XM300 = S3988

Logitech G900 = PMW-3366

Elecom DUX M-DUX70BK = PMW-3310

Elecom DUX M-DUX50BK = PMW-3320

Elecom M-XG3G = A3090

Fnatic Flick G1 = PMW-3310

Jizz GO 1.1 = PMW-3310

Reachace DM60 = PMW-3336DM

Hori Edge 101 = S3988

Roccat Kiro = A3050

Mad Catz R.A.T 1 = PMW-3320

Qpad DX-20 = PMW-3320

Final Mouse Tournament Pro = PMW-3310

Mars Gaming MM2 = PMW-3310


----------



## Dreyka

Bloody N50 = A3050

Bloody R70 = A3050

Bloody R80 = A3050

Bloody R30 = A3050


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Bloody N50 = A3050
> 
> Bloody R70 = A3050
> 
> Bloody R80 = A3050
> 
> Bloody R30 = A3050


That picture sums it up


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

lolmg dux mouse. What kind of witchcraft brought that to this realm?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> @Woll3


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Who stole my Edit Button?


^

Though there is an updated version hidden on the internet.


----------



## Dreyka

Corsair Katar = A3090


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> @Woll3
> 
> Corsair Scimitar = S3988
> 
> DreamMachine DM1 Pro = PMW-3310DH
> 
> DreamMachine DM2 Comfy = PMW-3310DH
> 
> Cooler Master Sentinel 3 = S3988
> 
> Gigabyte XM300 = S3988
> 
> Logitech G900 = PMW-3366
> 
> Elecom DUX M-DUX70BK = PMW-3310
> 
> Elecom DUX M-DUX50BK = PMW-3320
> 
> Elecom M-XG3G = A3090
> 
> Fnatic Flick G1 = PMW-3310
> 
> Jizz GO 1.1 = PMW-3310
> 
> Reachace DM60 = PMW-3336DM
> 
> Hori Edge 101 = S3988
> 
> Roccat Kiro = A3050
> 
> Mad Catz R.A.T 1 = PMW-3320
> 
> Qpad DX-20 = PMW-3320
> 
> Final Mouse Tournament Pro = PMW-3310
> 
> *Nixeus Imba = PMW-3310*
> 
> Mars Gaming MM2 = PMW-3310


That will be our new mouse product name - but we are not using that tooling and sensor. It wasn't an official announcement. That is just one of dozens of engineering samples.

Thank-you for posting though!


----------



## Dreyka

Ok. I removed it.


----------



## Dylan Nails

Xtrfy XG-M2 - 3310


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Ok. I removed it.


Thank-you! The people contributing in this thread and the OP are doing a great job by the way.


----------



## m0uz

Might want to add N1450T to the G100s sensor. I opened mine up today (a Korean import G100s) and it has N1450T printed beside AM010 on the sensor.


----------



## qsxcv

thats the year and month or batch number


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> thats the year and month or batch number


No, I'm sure there's 2 variants. You just need to google those two sensor names and there'll be a good number of posts about it. Why would they put the date or batch number directly onto the sensor? That would confuse the living hell out of everyone


----------



## SmashTV

Pretty sure the G602 has a different number there as well but I recall CPate stating they are indeed the same sensors (correct me if I'm wrong).


----------



## dobragab

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Pretty sure the G602 has a different number there as well


Once I had a G602, the sensor was:
AM000 N1408T

Yes, AM000.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> @Woll3
> 
> Corsair Scimitar = S3988
> 
> DreamMachine DM1 Pro = PMW-3310DH
> 
> DreamMachine DM2 Comfy = PMW-3310DH
> 
> Cooler Master Sentinel 3 = S3988
> 
> Gigabyte XM300 = S3988
> 
> Logitech G900 = PMW-3366
> 
> Elecom DUX M-DUX70BK = PMW-3310
> 
> Elecom DUX M-DUX50BK = PMW-3320
> 
> Elecom M-XG3G = A3090
> 
> Fnatic Flick G1 = PMW-3310
> 
> Jizz GO 1.1 = PMW-3310
> 
> Reachace DM60 = PMW-3336DM
> 
> Hori Edge 101 = S3988
> 
> Roccat Kiro = A3050
> 
> Mad Catz R.A.T 1 = PMW-3320
> 
> Qpad DX-20 = PMW-3320
> 
> Final Mouse Tournament Pro = PMW-3310
> 
> Mars Gaming MM2 = PMW-3310


These too

FMOUSE G200 - PMW3310

Mad Catz® R.A.T. PRO S - PMW3310

Mad Catz® R.A.T. PRO X - PMW3310

Reachace DareU S100 - PMW3310

Reachace DareU S100 FireWire Edition (w/ Side Buttons) - PMW3310

Skydigital Nmouse 4K - A3090


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> No, I'm sure there's 2 variants. You just need to google those two sensor names and there'll be a good number of posts about it. Why would they put the date or batch number directly onto the sensor? That would confuse the living hell out of everyone


yes, i was around when people started those rumors.

and it's a common thing for avago/pixart:
see pg2 of
http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/ADNS-3050%20DS_S_V1.0_20130514143944.pdf


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yes, i was around when people started those rumors.
> 
> and it's a common thing for avago/pixart:
> see pg2 of
> http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/ADNS-3050%20DS_S_V1.0_20130514143944.pdf


Well, I just got proven wrong. Well played, good sir


----------



## Dylan Nails

lenovo Y mouse - 9800 lol


----------



## Dreyka

Cougar 530M = PMW-3310


----------



## chr1spe

I can't find a solid statement of the sensors used, but the stated specs for the mice match the sensor specs exactly for:

Genius Scorpion M6-400 = PMW-3310
Genius Scorpion M6-600 = PMW-3310
Genius Scorpion M8-610 = ADNS-9800

Edit: http://www.test-gear.pl/sensor/ says PMW-3310 for the M6-400 and M6-600. No info on the M8-610 though.


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> I can't find a solid statement of the sensors used, but the stated specs for the mice match the sensor specs exactly for:
> 
> Genius Scorpion M6-400 = PMW-3310
> Genius Scorpion M6-600 = PMW-3310
> Genius Scorpion M8-610 = ADNS-9800
> 
> Edit: http://www.test-gear.pl/sensor/ says PMW-3310 for the M6-400 and M6-600. No info on the M8-610 though.


M6-400/600 definitely use the 3310. M8, I'm not so sure about. I'd hope so seeing as it came out Q4 2015. Hope they didn't pull a TTEsports and keep using the 9500


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> M6-400/600 definitely use the 3310. M8, I'm not so sure about. I'd hope so seeing as it came out Q4 2015. Hope they didn't pull a TTEsports and keep using the 9500


Yeah, it is definitely a 3310 on the M6-400/600 and I found a review that shows the M8-610 is an A9800 http://www.reviewstudio.net/2283-genius-gx-scorpion-m8-610-mouse-review-something-familiar/closer-look


----------



## Melan

Anyone has experience with newer G600 model? I've read on logitech forums that they re-released and actually made it's firmware flashable. Wonder if all those horror stories about ADNS 9800/8 are history now.


----------



## Dylan Nails

firmware doesnt fix 9800 accel


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> firmware doesnt fix 9800 accel


That wasn't what he was talking about but okay.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> firmware doesnt fix 9800 accel


He might be talking about the smoothing in early A9800 sroms. Rafa had one of those awful Dharmapoint mice(DRTCM38) that had the early srom. It had *30MS OF SMOOTHING AT 400DPI* before updating to the final firmware which used a later srom. Smoothing went down to 3ms after that.

Props to Jeroblo for coming up a good method to show how bad it was back in 2012.


----------



## Melan

So technically there's still some smoothing. Gonna visit teh local shoppe and squeeze G600 a little. Maybe even buy it.
I'm not a fan of these MMO "phone" mice but hot damn this thing looks sexy in white (and even better with hyperglides).


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> That wasn't what he was talking about but okay.


Ok


----------



## qsxcv

well obviously the human eye can only see 30fps, so 30ms doesnt matter /s

that's probably what the avago people thought though.

but did it ever occur to them that not having smoothing is tolerable for low dpi's? there's literally no point to 4ms smoothing or whatever at 400/800 dpi


----------



## Melan

At some point I would hope that Logitech revised firmware and fix the srom (since you know, they use their "special" ADNS 9808), but nope. Probably didn't even touch the smoothing on low CPI.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> At some point I would hope that Logitech revised firmware and fix the srom (since you know, they use their "special" ADNS 9808), but nope. Probably didn't even touch the smoothing on low CPI.


Well it's Logitech and not some random bottom of the barrel brand paying a factory to produce a turd, so it could be better.


----------



## adacsaba

Dudes , howdy doo ?

Does anyone know for certain what sensors do the A4tech V9A mice have ? they look like the A9 , which has A3050 , but the videos i saw, the V9A seems to have a larger , but round sensor hole and the lens seems somewhat like regular Vx series' . Perticularly interested in this as there seem to be some 'Blazing' bundle available with Bloody Keyboard and above Mouse


----------



## Dylan Nails

you'll be lucky to get a 3090 out of a4tech lmao they just make like 50 mice with all crap sensors instead of just putting 3310 or 3988


----------



## Melan

A4tech keeps stuffing those 3305DK and 3050 in their mice every time.


----------



## adacsaba

I can't help , just love their products... I have an V8M, ZL5 Sniper, X-755BK . There is some thing in A4tech stuff it makes one love them. Do you know how do the Blazing A optical ones behave ? I also own the G502 proteus (non RGB version) as well, so i have an idea what a really good sensor should be. But then again, all Logitech mice have this piece of **** feeling , it took me half a year to get used to the idiot form factor. And it's way too heavy , even without the balancing weights.


----------



## agnolech

thats what i was saying....






Now, try in the "paint" to make scribbles or lines with high dpi in every Avago-optical illuminated by led or laser against the twin eye with laser doppler sensor... and you will see the diference..

Im angry, thanks to all gaming comunity and their maniatic myths, now i dont have new mices with the twin eye, you all have forced a step back in mouse gamming technology moved by fanatism more than by facts.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> Now, try in the "paint" to make scribbles or lines with high dpi in every Avago-optical illuminated by led or laser against the twin eye with laser doppler sensor... and you will see the diference..
> 
> Im angry, thanks to all gaming comunity and their maniatic myths, now i dont have new mices with the twin eye, you all have forced a step back in mouse gamming technology moved by fanatism more than by facts.


Your inability to properly convey what you're even trying to say makes me highly doubt you even know what you're talking about.


----------



## agnolech

i know , im comparing the cmos optical sensor, led or laser illuminated with a doppler laser sensor....









the next thing in the gaming comunity is go back to ball mices...


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> i know , im comparing the cmos optical sensor, led or laser illuminated with a doppler laser sensor....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the next thing in the gaming comunity is go back to ball mices...


I love my Ball Mices
Edit :
btw ... "native" CPI .... like someone from Logitech said ... not a quote! U dont wanna believe how low it is , 400 isnt native ... ....
it's not just pixelArray ...

dunno ...


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> the next thing in the gaming comunity is go back to ball mices...


Mice? pff
Everyone knows that a Xbox One joystick with kontrolfreek is better. I mean, all pro players use it and play cod on consoles.
Also, 24fps > 120fps, it gives you a more realistic experience while quickscoping noobs


----------



## agnolech

also a donkey is better than a car , for old fashioners...









I think that you dont understand which is the difference between
measuring distances using the laser Doppler interferometers or using snapshots.


----------



## Maximillion

Did Above8 make an alt?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Did Above8 make an alt?


It looks like it.


----------



## agnolech

You can do a simple test at the same time , with any mouse with cmos sensor, either the 9800/3310 compared with the twin -eye . You walk into the paint and try it with the same settings and dpi. Nothing but you raise DPI in the CMOS sensor = Always jitter
PTE = always tracks Properly
And if you want the game to go fluid without the sawtooth as in the video I put up with the *low sensitivity and high dpi.
*

I know it bothers you because your myths are demolished .

Even internet is full of fools who say the PTE have acceleration because it is " Laser" when the acceleration sensors are the CMOS sensors illuminated by laser .

It's not just a guy puts a video and that's it , you were willing to be smarter and you show only go against the empirical evidence.

PTE =

-No acceleration
- No jitters
- And High DPI and low sens = No sawtooth and makes the game much more smooth.

You were willing to break what was supposed to be a myth , and you end up creating your own myth

when you respond with alleged sour jokes it is that you have nothing to say, just throwing balls out


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> garbage


That's nice dear, go back to your 3.3m/s significant other, please.


----------



## woll3

WB PTE-Stalin, now where is MLT04-Bush, guess he must be out wrestling some alligators.


----------



## agnolech

Go back to empirical dates ;

Pixart ADNS-9800: to *3.8 m / s,*

Pixart PMW3310: up to *3.3 m / s*.

Philips Twin Eye PLN 2031 = Tracking Speed - Up to *6m/sec*

You are talking about the downgraded tournament edition of the Rat TE.

*Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass*


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> Philips Twin Eye PLN 2031 = Tracking Speed - Up to 6m/sec


----------



## aLv1080

Obvious bait is obvious

Btw, today is April fools. I guess he's just trying harder today


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Obvious bait is obvious
> 
> Btw, today is April fools. I guess he's just trying harder today


Yeah it really is obvious, at first I thought the entire PTE superiority thing was serious and I got a little bit rustled, but then I realized I had been played, now I just continue to reply in regards to what he has to say next, surely a troll can run out of things to make up eventually right? I mean...I guess at that point they can just start repeating themselves though.


----------



## Soo8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> downgraded tournament edition


proof?


----------



## chr1spe

I thought the main problem with PTE was z-axis problems. TBH, I haven't tried a PTE mouse and have thought about giving one a spin just for the hell of it, but there aren't any decent mice at a decent price with the PTE. If I didn't like it I would return it anyway, but I don't want to spend a bunch in the first place. If the diamondback was like 40$ I would give that a test drive.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> I thought the main problem with PTE was z-axis problems. TBH, I haven't tried a PTE mouse and have thought about giving one a spin just for the hell of it, but there aren't any decent mice at a decent price with the PTE. If I didn't like it I would return it anyway, but I don't want to spend a bunch in the first place. If the diamondback was like 40$ I would give that a test drive.


In short, it is highly surface dependent, and depending on the brand you buy you might be stuck with CPI Damping.


----------



## agnolech

my fault :

Is the new Mad Catz R.A.T Pro S that brings the Pixart PMW3310 up to 3.3 m / s

then it seems that you attack the twin eye because its tracking speed..... and it turns out that the sensor is almost twice faster than CMOS sensors


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> In short, it is highly surface dependent, and depending on the brand you buy you might be stuck with CPI Damping.


Yeah, razers have CPI damping right? The only reason I say diamond back is afaik it is the only PTE mouse that meets my basic requirements of mouse being somewhat small especially height <40cm and weight definitely less than 110g, but preferably less than 100g, and ideally 90g or under.

Edit: Also what exactly does "CPI damping" mean. I've seen the term used before, but I haven't seen a thorough explanation. Is it a form of acceleration or something?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> Yeah, razers have CPI damping right? The only reason I say diamond back is afaik it is the only PTE mouse that meets my basic requirements of mouse being somewhat small especially height <40cm and weight definitely less than 110g, but preferably less than 100g, and ideally 90g or under.


Umm....Rat T.E.


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> Yeah, razers have CPI damping right? The only reason I say diamond back is afaik it is the only PTE mouse that meets my basic requirements of mouse being somewhat small especially height <40cm and weight definitely less than 110g, but preferably less than 100g, and ideally 90g or under.
> 
> Edit: Also what exactly does "CPI damping" mean. I've seen the term used before, but I haven't seen a thorough explanation. Is it a form of acceleration or something?


do not criticize me so much that I am encouraging the roost









I recommend the RAT 7 since it has *weights* , to have more weight in mice also affects sensitivity, with more weight you can increase the dpi and make the game even smoother , but you always have to be comfortable with the weight in your 360º/ Cm sensitivity.

and a recommendation for pte sensor. You need cleaning it , if you do not clean it and suddenly stops working one axis is that you have dust on the sensor , not the mouse is broken. it gets dirty easily and more if you eat and smoke sometime in the computer. it is very sensitive


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Umm....Rat T.E.


Oh, yeah I guess that looks decent. I thought all of the R.A.T. mice where made of lead.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> do not criticize me so much that I am encouraging the roost
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recommend the RAT 7 since it has *weights* , to have more weight in mice also affects sensitivity, with more weight you can increase the dpi and make the game even smoother , but you always have to be comfortable with the weight in your 360º/ Cm sensitivity.


There is no way I would even remotely consider that mouse close to usable if the information I can find is correct. AFAIK that mouse ways around 150g without the weights which is not at all appropriate for a mouse.


----------



## Soo8

PCS in the datasheets is not even close to the performance you get in the real world.
After a quick search I found out that two PTE mice reach only 3.5m/s. Props to uaokkkkkkkk for actually providing some numbers.


Spoiler: Razer Diamondback



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> By the way. 3.5m/s on a qck? What the hell?








Spoiler: Razer Spectre



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Spectre caps at around 3.5m/s. So after all these years twin eye is still stuck at that max speed for whatever reason.





While most if not all 3310 mice reach 5m/s+ and they don't have any problems with cloth pads.

If they fix the z-axis bug, the cloth pad compatibility, maybe raise the PCS I see no problem why not choose a PTE mouse. But at this point and time I can't see someone compromising comfort and high PCS for a bit smoother input.


----------



## Bucake

i see there are five PTE sensors (PLN2030 - PLN2034), what exactly is the difference between them..?


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> Oh, yeah I guess that looks decent. I thought all of the R.A.T. mice where made of lead.
> There is no way I would even remotely consider that mouse close to usable if the information I can find is correct. AFAIK that mouse ways around 150g without the weights which is not at all appropriate for a mouse.


I 've gotten used to the weight and now the other mice seem to me a cheap plastic toy . the mouse although it seems heavy, is very dynamic and low , moves and lifts effortlessly.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> PCS in the datasheets is not even close to the performance you get in the real world.
> After a quick search I found out that two PTE mice reach only 3.5m/s. Props to uaokkkkkkkk for actually providing some numbers.


actually it is very close. just somewhat misleading
the stated max speed in the datasheet is for diagonal 45degree tracking, which would be ~1.4x higher than the max speed in one direction cuz pythagoras


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> I 've gotten used to the weight and now the other mice seem to me a cheap plastic toy . the mouse although it seems heavy, is very dynamic and low , moves and lifts effortlessly.


We spoke about it before (because I'm sure you're just an alt of above8) but the PTE does not have a pcs of 6 m/s, it caps at 3.3-3.5 m/s. 6 m/s is the malfunction speed.

3310 has a pcs of ~5.5 m/s.

Also your arguments about higher weight being beneficial are stupid, that is only a crutch if your CPI/sensitivity is too high to control comfortably.

Btw I did a review of the Rat T.E. and my conclusion was that it is indeed nice for high CPI and much better there than CMOS sensors, but as high CPI is completely unnecessary for many people it loses its biggest benefit.
At low CPI CMOS sensors offer more compatibility with different surfaces and track just as well.

I still wouldn't mind a PTE in a good shell with unlocked pcs, but the only one that came close to me was the Razer Spectre and that one was too small and uncomfortable. Also capped at 3.5 m/s.


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> We spoke about it before (because I'm sure you're just an alt of above8) but the PTE does not have a pcs of 6 m/s, it caps at 3.3-3.5 m/s. 6 m/s is the malfunction speed.
> 
> 3310 has a pcs of ~5.5 m/s.
> 
> 1Also your arguments about higher weight being beneficial are stupid, that is only a crutch if your CPI/sensitivity is too high to control comfortably.
> 
> 2 Btw I did a review of the Rat T.E. and my conclusion was that it is indeed nice for high CPI and much better there than CMOS sensors, but as high CPI is completely unnecessary for many people it loses its biggest benefit.
> At low CPI CMOS sensors offer more compatibility with different surfaces and track just as well.
> .


1 you are taking in the bad way, like someone ill-intentioned... i put the weigths that i need , then i configure the DPI.... trying different configurations.. I 'm approaching which is with which I am more comfortable
That you are doing is contort the reality to put words in my mouth that I did not say and so adapt the framework of reality where you want to try me wrong..... that's a stupid resource like im a fanatic of the high dpi or something similar. i use something balanced...

2 Is simple , the difference in smothinees is abysmal, you dont stand up, I play at mount and blade warband,a much more demanding game with the mouse than any other game, with his high rotational movements, im now a expert in detecting the smooth of the dpi, its something that gave me years to be fully aware... but you sound like a noob to me.... sorry you sound to me like you are saying that is better play a game at 15 fps with sawtooths that at 30 fps






the same ******* effect but with a mouse rotating 360º at high speed continuously


----------



## chr1spe

I do not see any reason someone would want a heavy mouse. A mouse is something that should feel like an extension of your hand and being lighter helps with that significantly. You don't see people in professional sports complain because their equipment is light and say it feels flimsy. Racket sports for example are constantly trying to reduce weight so that rackets feel almost weightless. You do have to be a bit careful with those rackets though I guess. Also if you don't use a really high sensitivity and lift the mouse a lot it can even be slightly tiring playing for multiple hours on end.

As far as PTE sensors I don't see any reason particularly to try them other than curiosity. The pmw3366 operates amazingly at any CPI I would ever realistically consider. I even tried it at 8200 CPI in paint just out of curiosity and while there are things on some lines that look like jitter I'm not even fully convinced that isn't my hand struggling to make the tiny movements necessary at 8200 CPI on a 1920 monitor. I may try changing to a very high resolution down-scaled to see what happens when I'm not trying to make such tiny movements. I can actually make perfect lines that have no jitter if I move extremely slowly or at a normal fairly quick speed. I only see jitter at medium to low speed and my hand is struggling to control the mouse so precisely at that speed to stay on the screen. I don't think with normal movement in game I would even notice any jittering at a ridiculously high CPI like that.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> That you are doing is contort the reality to put words in my mouth that I did not say and so adapt the framework of reality where you want to try me wrong


Oh man, this guy should be a lawyer.


----------



## agnolech

i want to see your amazing pmw3066 vs my PTE PNL 2031


----------



## chr1spe

There are occasional tiny things that might be jitter, but definitely not significant and honestly I really do feel like at such high CPI it is possible my hand is just not moving entirely smoothly on such a micro scale. A count is literally under 200 micrometers.

Edit: Actually if I'm being honest yours looks more jittery to me, but this was fairly quick movements on mine and less jittery looking than if I move slowly where my hand is struggling.


----------



## agnolech

looks like you cant do a scribble properly


























































try again but being honest


----------



## chr1spe

I'm not even sure what you want from me. I can't really control my mouse at all on this CPI though so I just drew randomly. What particularly do you want? If I move more slowly it more a test of how stable my hand is because I can't even move my hand smoothly.


----------



## agnolech

is not because your hand, is because your sensor is garbage...


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



I can't even move my hand smoothly



so you cant write a word?

I say because i tested several mouse at the same time , 3310, 9800 and pnl 2031 and others and every mouse with cmos sensor is uncontrolable at high dpi and it makes jitters. i suppose that same thing happens with the 3366


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> 3310 has a pcs of ~5.5 m/s.


actually around 6m/s from my testing
not sure... i have a suspicion that all these high-pcs cmos sensors actually neg accel near the top of their tracking speed.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> I say because i tested several mouse at the same time , 3310, 9800 and pnl 2031 and others and every mouse with cmos sensor is uncontrolable at high dpi and it makes jitters. i supose that same thing happens with the 3366


oh hai above8


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> is not because your hand, is because your sensor is garbage...
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I can't even move my hand smoothly
> 
> 
> 
> so you cant write a word?
> 
> I say because i tested several mouse at the same time , 3310, 9800 and pnl 2031 and others and every mouse with cmos sensor is uncontrollable at high dpi and it makes jitters. i supose that same thing happens with the 3366


My hand writing is actually terrible if I'm being honestly and my extremely fine coordination is not very good. I'm by no means any sort of artist in the slightest. I do have extremely good coordination in general though. I'm quite a skilled juggler and used to be very good at racquet ball so those are the types of movements I feel very confident with and they are definitely much larger scale. The movements I'm trying to make in paint at such a high CPI have absolutely nothing to do any motion I would ever make in game even at quite a high sensitivity. I play at 800 CPI 1.6 in game in CS. Even with this its not like it looks worse than what you have shown.


----------



## qsxcv

as ino said, twineye probably is better (as in having less jitter) than cmos sensors at high dpi, but who cares unless you're using 10cm/360?


----------



## chr1spe

Yeah, I suppose maybe if I had them side by side I would be convinced, but if I'm being honest I'm really not convinced most of the "jitter" isn't actual motion and that less "jitter" wouldn't be to processing out actual motion. To be fully convinced I would really have to see a pattern made by a robot or mechanic device capable of reproducing patterns with ~10-50 micrometer precision or better.

Edit: Also I question the relevance of very fine jitter in general. There is absolutely no jitter at normal in game speeds from what I see.


----------



## Melan

Fight fight fight!


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> My hand writing is actually terrible if I'm being honestly and my extremely fine coordination is not very good. I'm by no means any sort of artist in the slightest. I do have extremely good coordination in general though. I'm quite a skilled juggler and used to be very good at racquet ball so those are the types of movements I feel very confident with and they are definitely much larger scale. The movements I'm trying to make in paint at such a high CPI have absolutely nothing to do any motion I would ever make in game even at quite a high sensitivity. I play at 800 CPI 1.6 in game in CS. Even with this its not like it looks worse than what you have shown.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

I've already tried to make myself like pln mice. It just never worked. Not worth the effort anymore.


----------



## Bucake

is that angle snapping i see agnolech? that's great


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Fight fight fight!





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## agnolech

no my love, i do it straight , i recognise the fist time they look like a snake. you must try with both mouse at the same time, and you'll see the difference... now i only have the rat , i give or sold the others..


----------



## dobragab

Probably this is why.


----------



## chr1spe

Perhaps you hand is more used to these unrealistically tiny motions. Maybe there is some sort of processing. Maybe there is an irrelevent amount of jitter on the pmw3366. Who knows?

TBH if my hand is fully relaxed sometimes I get no jitter regardless of speed. Sometimes I get jitter at small speed, but my hand is struggling to try to do the equivalent of handwriting in 2 point font. I'm really not convinced because it seems like the sensor sometimes does not jitter at any speed. On top of that I simply don't really see any relevance to movements less than a mm at speeds I never move my mouse.


----------



## Melan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> I've already tried to make myself like pln mice. It just never worked. Not worth the effort anymore.


You're not supposed to. All mice with PTE in it are:
1. Expensive
2. Ugly AF
3. Very surface limited
4. Gimped by dampening
5. No one needs those 5000+ CPI, since some of the games sensitivity doesn't even scale that far, unless you're one of them ultra high sens 7cm/360 players.


----------



## Axaion

so r0ach did some LSD and figured "hey its april 1st, lets see how many i can get to reply" then?


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> Perhaps you hand is more used to these unrealistically tiny motions. Maybe there is some sort of processing. Maybe there is an irrelevent amount of jitter on the pmw3366. Who knows?
> 
> TBH if my hand is fully relaxed sometimes I get no jitter regardless of speed. Sometimes I get jitter at small speed, but my hand is struggling to try to do the equivalent of handwriting in 2 point font. I'm really not convinced because it seems like the sensor sometimes does not jitter at any speed. On top of that I simply don't really see any relevance to movements less than a mm at speeds I never move my mouse.


What i see and what i test with both cmos sensors and pte at same time.

Cmos sensors move like a sawtooth

PTE sensors moves fine

With same sensitivity and dpi, testing the mices inside the games and in paint tests

I have 1980x1080 and 825 DPI for navigation .


----------



## agnolech

i want to bring a new debate, if the 6/11 in windows ... another possible myth?


----------



## Soo8

It seems useless to argue at this point. Let's see where this leads tho.


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> It seems useless to argue at this point. Let's see where this leads tho.


Yeah, maybe I should stop poking the troll, but tbh its kind of fun







.

Out of curiosity I just dmed some with 8000dpi 0.16 in game and I wasn't really noticing anything off about it really, but I wasn't warmed up and was just messing around while watching the major on my other monitor. In all honesty I don't see anything to complain about with the pmw3366 even if you do insist you need ridiculous dpi. If you want to try to make art at 8000 dpi that will look like it is done at 800dpi maybe it isn't perfect, but I don't see any reason someone would torture themself like that.


----------



## agnolech

is not that, i use my sens in base 15cm/360

800 dpi = 15cm/360 = X sens in game

1975 dpi = 15cm/360 = X sens in game

3950 dpi = 15cm/360 = X sens in game with same 15cm/360 but smoother

i move the sens to get 15cm or what you want... i dont really care what is the number of the sens or the game...

If you have two mouses, one pte and another a cmos, and with the same configuration i can notice that the twin-eye in games and in paint is a lot smoother and dont jitter like the cmos like a sawtooth


----------



## chr1spe

15cm/360 is extremely high sensitivity. Anyway that is more or less what I did... I use 800dpi 1.6 in game and I was trying 8000dpi 0.16 in game. I really don't see a difference positive or negative. It doesn't really feel smoother and there is no noticeable jitter while aiming. I honestly do not think there is a good chance I would pass a blind test to differentiate between the two at all through normal play until I got to the buy menu.

Edit: High sensitivity if that wasn't clear. It is an extremely low number of cm/360


----------



## agnolech

t


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> is that angle snapping i see agnolech? that's great


i do not use the mouse in that configuration with 5600dpi and win 6/11 is uncontrolable in all mouses and makes small jitter ,im using 825 dpi at 6/11, but any other cmos mouse makes more jitter .is only that, a test with the mouse without a normal configuration, , second time that cmos fanatics try to modify the reality.

at the same *deconfiguration* , the twin eye is better, cmos is like a sawtooth


----------



## Soo8

Speaking of PTE, has anyone found out why Pixart sensors report diagonal movement in 2 reports? Is it to achieve higher malfunctions speeds?
I remember there was a discussion going on about MLT04 vs Pixart sensors and people were talking about that, cant't find it now though.


----------



## Trax416

So which mice currently have the most accurate sensors?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> Speaking of PTE, has anyone found out why Pixart sensors report diagonal movement in 2 reports? Is it to achieve higher malfunctions speeds?
> I remember there was a discussion going on about MLT04 vs Pixart sensors and people were talking about that, cant't find it now though.



draw a random line through this grid, and see which squares it crosses.

diagonal movement in 2 reports is the natural/correct way to do it

mlt04 does some sort of deadzone-like thing in order to report 1,1 diagonal movement as one report.


----------



## Soo8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> diagonal movement in 2 reports is the natural/correct way to do it
> 
> mlt04 does some sort of deadzone-like thing in order to report 1,1 diagonal movement as one report.


But people say (and I agree) that the MLT04 "feels" more natural while doing diagonal movement, even at normal movement speeds. Are there any inherent flaws that come to mind using the 1;1 mlt way of reporting in modern sensors? Maybe non-responsive cursor movement at very slow speeds using high dpi? I assume PTE sensors use the two-report way?


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> But people say (and I agree) that the MLT04 "feels" more natural while doing diagonal movement, even at normal movement speeds. Are there any inherent flaws that come to mind using the 1;1 mlt way of reporting in modern sensors? Maybe non-responsive cursor movement at very slow speeds using high dpi? I assume PTE sensors use the two-report way?


Unless normal speed is still kind of slow they should report the same thing especially at lower than 1000hz. The end point where you are accelerating you will still see the 1x0,0x1 behavior, but the middle will be a lot of 1x1 or higher. It could also have something to do with the report rate. Obviously most people over clock mlt04 mice, but I wouldn't be entirely confident a mouse that was not designed with the intent of being used above 125hz acts exactly the same as one intended to be used up to 1000hz. Maybe it does, but I'm just saying it is a potential source of differences. If it works like qsxcv says and uses some sort of deadzone then it would be delaying counts very slightly. I assume he has done testing or read something that suggests this is the case, but the only ways I can really see to always report 1x1 on diagonal is either delaying or prediction even if it is only by a very very small amount.


----------



## qsxcv

idk mlt04 feels a bit sticky compared to any avago/pixart sensor i'ved tried for pixel-sized motions.
for instance, try writing abcdefg in mspaint as small as you can

if i had a microscope stage i could prove what i'm saying... but i don't









i don't think this affects anything at all for normal motion speeds, not because it's insignificant, but because it's literally only something that affects pixel-by-pixel motion (if my deadzone hypothesis is correct)


----------



## agnolech

I found an old logitech G9x in my cellar, although its sensor is a laser avago9500 if I remember correctly , although this illuminated by laser is a cmos sensor.

a small test :


----------



## daniel0731ex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> idk mlt04 feels a bit sticky compared to any avago/pixart sensor i'ved tried for pixel-sized motions.
> for instance, try writing abcdefg in mspaint as small as you can
> 
> if i had a microscope stage i could prove what i'm saying... but i don't
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i don't think this affects anything at all for normal motion speeds, not because it's insignificant, but because it's literally only something that affects pixel-by-pixel motion (if my deadzone hypothesis is correct)


Could the stickiness not be a result of framerate?


----------



## Bucake

none of the Microsoft BlueTrack mice are good?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> I found an old logitech G9x in my cellar, although its sensor is a laser avago9500 if I remember correctly , although this illuminated by laser is a cmos sensor.
> 
> a small test :
> 
> IMG


i doubt there would be a difference at a lower cpi step like 800, right?
btw, according to you, which are the good PTE mice?


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> none of the Microsoft BlueTrack mice are good?
> i doubt there would be a difference at a lower cpi step like 800, right?
> btw, according to you, which are the good PTE mice?


Apparently ones that weigh 150g.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*
> 
> *NZXT Avatar:*
> 
> 3rd party lens from Kingsis -> much lower max. speed


3 m/s max speed @ 600dpi.

Normal lens used for 3080 mice won't fit because the lens space on the pcb is cut intentionally short(or was it the led plastic holder hogging the space cant recall)

Yeah, yeah I know he's long gone. He's also still correct.

I'm just typing words on the internet and stuff.

Edit:
S/N:
M082= V1(Debounce set to low)
M083= V2(Debounce set to high)


----------



## agnolech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> Apparently ones that weigh 150g.


each person is different and may have their own tastes, if you like light mice have the RAT TE with 90 grams and 60 euros and can disable the dampening in software options . Above 8 is my shepherd and I shall not want
















i follow his logics
Quote:


> With 1 CPI at 4 inch/360, 1 mouse count will rotate camera at 90 degrees.
> With 90 CPI at 4 inch/360, 1 mouse count will rotate camera at 1 degree.
> With 900 CPI at 4 inch/360, 1 mouse count will rotate camera at 0.1 degree.
> With 9 000 CPI at 4 inch/360, 1 mouse count will rotate camera at 0.01 degree.
> In either case same physical movement (4 inch) will result same account of camera rotation (360 degrees), but quality of quantization will be different.


if you want to avoid this


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agnolech*
> 
> each person is different and may have their own tastes, if you like light mice have the RAT TE with 90 grams and 60 euros and can disable the dampening in software options . Above 8 is my shepherd and I shall not want
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i follow his logics
> if you want to avoid this


Yes, but you have to realize when that actually matters and when it doesn't. 4 inches/360 is a terrible example because it is an unrealistically high sensitivity and games don't require you to aim with 1/100ths of a degree precision. You also have to realize no human is moving their hand with micrometer precision so having counts be around a micrometer in size is useless and by worrying about jitter at 5000 CPI or whatever you are worrying about possible very small inaccuracies at a scale where the device can't be used accurately in the first place. Some how I completely derped on the math before, but a single count at 5000 CPI is only 5 micrometers. If you think you can move your hand so accurately that a couple counts matter at that sensitivity I don't know what to tell you, but you aren't playing the same way most people play games.


----------



## agnolech

Well, as I said before each person can have their own tastes and the difference in quality it is abysmal, it is not only to raise dpi , but also to reduce sensitivity in the game, in proportion . You said you tested it a few minutes, I spent years and am now able to realize much better, it is like playing 20 or 30fps . if you are used to playing at 20 fps with sawtooth you may not notice much change as if you are used to playing at 30fps and reduce them to 20fps .

And it 's not just about that, if not for the quality of the movement itself, in the PTE , I feel the mouse on the screen instead with ICS sensors I get the feeling as if the cursor flew above the screen. I'm used to the feeling of Twin EYE from my point of view far superior to any ICS at any DPI , 800 or 5600, i dont care...

for everyone the z -axis problem is a bug important enough to banish forever the sensor , but I do not care. when you are moving the mouse , just not noticed anything. And I'm almost more interested in the mouse when perched on the mat , which when raised in the air , since the quality of movement compensates for the bug . For me as ICS on the mat move, if it's a bug . It is a technology without a future that has reached its limit .

But it is clear that companies will prefer to sell a sensor that cost them € 1 to sell one costing 15 € and also has a bad reputation , from my point of view undeserved .


----------



## jesh462

I know this topic is old, but I just read this stuff about CMOS sensors and being jittery at high DPI. Here is my Roccat KPM with 4500 dpi.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jesh462*
> 
> I know this topic is old, but I just read this stuff about CMOS sensors and being jittery at high DPI. Here is my Roccat KPM with 4500 dpi.


Use a 1px pencil if you want to check stuff

Also while 4500 dpi is not enough to cause enough jitter, its still way too high to be usable


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Also while 4500 dpi is not enough to cause enough jitter, its still way too high to be usable


Well, as we all know masking it is standard, dont know about KPM though as i gave mine away.


----------



## jesh462

5000 is as high as my mouse goes, so idk what else to tell you.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jesh462*
> 
> 5000 is as high as my mouse goes, so idk what else to tell you.


I am saying that motion interpolation aka smoothing is being used in almost all cases to mask jitter at the expense of delay.


----------



## jesh462

AFAIK the 3310 can only apply 4ms. That's not really a deal breaker when you take into account other delays in the whole computer system.


----------



## Bucake

it's a deal breaker since there's also 0ms


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> it's a deal breaker since there's also 0ms


You mean the SteelSeries Ikari







?


----------



## NixXSkate

Can you add the Sky Digital Nmouse 4K? It uses the Avago 3090

PS: The Dare-U S100 seemed to slip into the Laser mouse section.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NixXSkate*
> 
> Can you add the Sky Digital Nmouse 4K? It uses the Avago 3090


Only if you can find my Edit Button.


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Only if you can find my Edit Button.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SnakeBiteScares*
> 
> Contact one of the admins and request permission to edit again, this "feature" was added so that old threads containing useful information couldn't be removed or edited after a user who wanted to quit tried to mass delete valuable content he had added to ocn


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> ...only ENTERPRISE, The_Manual and Chipp have the access to change permissions and ENTERPRISE has taken this responsibility, contacting anyone else will simply lead to them contacting ENTERPRISE to have the permissions changed.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Never seen this sensor before. I don't know what it is.

Wait is this the CYONS2100?


----------



## qsxcv

watthe

mousetester?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

It has to be cyons.

cloth




I had to use a plastic cutting board. CYONS is always better on plastic pads.

Jitter is *insane* though. It doesn't help they used *THE THICKEST USB CORD IMAGINABLE*.

Locked at 500hz and very unstable.


----------



## qsxcv

worse than wmo cable?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

It closely resembles the usb cable that was bundled with the printer I have.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Yay! I guessed correctly. It is the CYONS2100.

Pic:


----------



## Zakman

Anyone know when the 3310 will be going EoL?


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zakman*
> 
> Anyone know when the 3310 will be going EoL?


Not sure but considering there are mice still being made using the 3050 it won't be leaving us any time soon


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Not sure but considering there are mice still being made using the 3050 it won't be leaving us any time soon


The manufacturers want to release a cheapie sensor equipped models that some still LOVE to use on their particular mouse pad.

Just because the Gods here on Mount OCN don't approve of it, the ordinary mortals down on Earth shall be using it till the end of time







.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

lol free LaView generic- i mean Mionix Saiph mouse included!


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> 
> 
> lol free LaView generic- i mean Mionix Saiph mouse included!


Great, are you going to run a detailed sensor test with this model?

Also denote the debounce rate, if that's possible.......


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

...


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> ...


----------



## Dr Strangelove

Hey guys,

does anyone know the difference between the *PLN 2033* (R.A.T 7/9 Refresh), *2034* (R.A.T TE) and the *2037* (R.A.T Pro X)?


----------



## Ufasas

Hello everybody, any1 noticed this mouse ? http://tesorotec.com/ascalon-h7l-infrared-optical-ensor-gaming-mouse/

is it 3988, if it is, it's a great competitor vs 3366 sensors, I am seeing it used, for 20quid, normal price around 50-60

PS. Just found on youtube comments, it's possibly 3988, it's crazy!!! Sensor is like top 3366!!


----------



## Selhouette333

Hello guys, I realize that this question might have been asked million times in this thread but the number of pages below scares me. So I do want to know which are the best sensors today. Which are the newer? Any worse/better prioritized list over there or any logic in the names of sensors giving a notion of novelty, something?


----------



## qsxcv

3366/3360 and am010/3320 (only ~2.5m/s max speed though)


----------



## Selhouette333

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 3366/3360 and am010/3320 (only ~2.5m/s max speed though)


Thanks, are these avago or pixart? I've noticed some sensors have same numbers in the name, for example 3310 if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## qsxcv

they're the same. pixart acquired avago's mouse sensors or something like that a few years ago so actually everything is pixart.


----------



## Selhouette333

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> they're the same. pixart acquired avago's mouse sensors or something like that a few years ago so actually everything is pixart.


Thanks!


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Selhouette333*
> 
> Thanks!


3988, in tesoro ascalon, razers, cougar 550, and others, has way better range of shapes than 3310 ever had, ditching nearly every single mouse with 3310, because their shapes awkward as it gets, who in the world would have thought.. My 3rd with 3988 alive and kicking!


----------



## bambarbio

Hello! a4tech bloody a90 have same sensor as a4tech bloody a9?


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bambarbio*
> 
> Hello! a4tech bloody a90 have same sensor as a4tech bloody a9?


Yes.


----------



## DarthBaggins

Noticed the Gigabyte XM300 mouse wasn't listed, any reason for this? Inexpensive mouse with a Gaming Optical Sensor (Pixart 3988) - Paid about $22 for mine


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DarthBaggins*
> 
> Noticed the Gigabyte XM300 mouse wasn't listed, any reason for this? Inexpensive mouse with a Gaming Optical Sensor (Pixart 3988) - Paid about $22 for mine


No new mice get listed because for older threads the edit function was removed so Woll3 can't edit OP anymore.
It might either be time to close this here or copy to a new one.


----------



## DarthBaggins

Normally I PM Enterprise to re-open privileges, we do it all the time in the [email protected] section


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DarthBaggins*
> 
> Normally I PM Enterprise to re-open privileges, we do it all the time in the [email protected] section


i suggested it to OP before, but i guess he either missed it or just wasn't interested


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> i suggested it to OP before, but i guess he either missed it or just wasn't interested


I requested it before when the change had been done and a second time sometime afterwards, was a bit annoyed so it fell under my "well, then i dont care either" category.


----------



## Arizonian

I've PM'd woll3 on how to gain access to the OP so he can continue to edit this thread.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> I've PM'd woll3 on how to gain access to the OP so he can continue to edit this thread.


If the thread starts getting updated he can take the 3360 list we formed in my thread and add it here and we can discontinue that if you want, only reason I made my thread was cause this one stopped getting updated


----------



## Ino.

So, have editing rights been reinstated?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> So, have editing rights been reinstated?


Indeed they have been.


----------



## M1st

Zowie FK2 with its 3310 is missing.


----------



## ioshka

Two years ago or so, G400 had the best mouse sensor which arguably made G400 the best mouse. Is that still the case?


----------



## qsxcv

more like 5 years ago but no


----------



## ioshka

Might have been 5 then. So what's changed since then? Which sensor beats the G400?


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ioshka*
> 
> Might have been 5 then. So what's changed since then? Which sensor beats the G400?


3366 and 3360 are better, 3988 can be argued as better depending on specifics, 3095 is pretty much fine though. I use the 3095 and I've used the 3366, no complaints, there's a notable difference but I prefer the feeling of the 3095, more than likely because the shape is better for me.

G403 and G400 have different shapes but the G403 has a 3366, if you don't want to lose the ergonomic design then that's a pretty safe option.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ioshka*
> 
> Might have been 5 then. So what's changed since then? Which sensor beats the G400?
> 
> 
> 
> 3366 and 3360 are better, 3988 can be argued as better depending on specifics, 3095 is pretty much fine though. I use the 3095 and I've used the 3366, no complaints, there's a notable difference but I prefer the feeling of the 3095, more than likely because the shape is better for me.
> 
> G403 and G400 have different shapes but the G403 has a 3366, if you don't want to lose the ergonomic design then that's a pretty safe option.
Click to expand...

It's not about which sensor is installed into any mouse BUT whether the QUALITY and Implementation of that sensor, has been achieved.

The G400 is the highest quality example compared to most newly made rubbish, using the so-called GREAT 3360 sensor. If they bothered in using higher Quality Standards and adhering to them then maybe you will have a better range of models that will last longer than the humble G400 did. As it's going now, none of these new mice releases will even last past two years let alone four to six years ahead.

Sadly there has been nothing released that eclipses the quality and functionality of the G400 and that is what's truly sad, for these idiot manufacturers during 2016.


----------



## DarthBaggins

For myself so far I'm happy w/ the 3310 sensor in my EC1-A over the 3988 in my XM300 (still not really a bad mouse). feel I have better consistent control in games.


----------



## ioshka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> It's not about which sensor is installed into any mouse BUT whether the QUALITY and Implementation of that sensor, has been achieved.
> 
> The G400 is the highest quality example compared to most newly made rubbish, using the so-called GREAT 3360 sensor. If they bothered in using higher Quality Standards and adhering to them then maybe you will have a better range of models that will last longer than the humble G400 did. As it's going now, none of these new mice releases will even last past two years let alone four to six years ahead.
> 
> Sadly there has been nothing released that eclipses the quality and functionality of the G400 and that is what's truly sad, for these idiot manufacturers during 2016.


That's what I meant when asking the questiin and you probably couldn't have answered better.

I really wasn't talking about shape, just the flawlessness of the sensors and G400's sensor is really second to none. I wish they kept manufacturing that legend of a mouse.


----------



## Bucake

@OP
logitech MX500 can also have a S2020


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> @OP
> logitech MX500 can also have a S2020


Any specifics?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Just take pics of it Bucake. It'll make it easier that way. It'd be cool to see it anyway.


----------



## wareya

is there an index of, like, sensors themselves, with known problems

edit: granted if it were made more than a couple years ago it would probably be inaccurate is hell


----------



## m0uz

Anyone know what laser sensor this is?

800/1200/1600/2000/3200
45ips
20G

Sorry for so little info


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Anyone know what laser sensor this is?
> 
> 800/1200/1600/2000/3200
> 45ips
> 20G
> 
> Sorry for so little info


You're sure it's a Laser Sensor because it looks suspiciously like 3090 settings.


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> You're sure it's a Laser Sensor because it looks suspiciously like 3090 settings.


Pretty sure. It's an older mouse so it might use a laser sensor similar to the G3 as opposed to the newer integrated illumination ones.


----------



## Bucake

are those the madcatz specs? 3200 cpi and 20g sounds like the cyons2001

edit: no apparently that's only 10G. maybe it's the A6090 or A6098?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> are those the madcatz specs? 3200 cpi and 20g sounds like the cyons2001
> 
> edit: no apparently that's only 10G. maybe it's the A6090 or A6098?


If it's a 6098, jump on it, they're extremely rare







.


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Any specifics?


both are MX500. left is P/N 830984, right is P/N 831048:
( big: http://i.imgur.com/oEiX759.jpg )



the MX500 has had at least 4 iterations, 3 of which use the S2020. only the first iteration housed an A2020 , and they switched to the new(S2020) PCB somewhere between 2003-11-10 and 2004-03-25.
for some reason they didn't change the product number when they switched PCBs. the model number however changed from M-BP81A to M-BS81A (and it stayed like that until at least the MX518[v2]).
they were still producing the MX500 in 2005, after the MX510 had already been released.

that first MX500 iteration has also seen multiple PCB revisions:
*here*'s a photo (taken from google) where you can see the A2020 PCB. it's Rev C, but i've also seen D (could've been B, the picture was too bad to tell).


----------



## auxy

MadCatz RAT 1 v2 uses PAW3204DB sensor.

A little bird told me. ('ω')


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auxy*
> 
> MadCatz RAT 1 v2 uses PAW3204DB sensor.
> 
> A little bird told me. ('ω')


Well, to the wall of shame with it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> .......


Added.


----------



## Tyson86-88

The A3055 is different from the A3050? Which is better? And as the A3055 compared with AM010?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tyson86-88*
> 
> And as the A3055 compared with AM010?


Avago has inherent smoothing so NO the cheapo A3055 is no comparison to the humble AM010, which slaughters it in every facet of precise movement.

You want junky, cheapo sensor then go for an Avago but if you want perfection then AM010 is the one and only to ever use







.


----------



## qsxcv

you dont know what you're talking about
adns305x has no smoothing


----------



## Tyson86-88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> you dont know what you're talking about
> adns305x has no smoothing


I have a g100 and g100s. I am using 1000dpi and 500 Hz. I do not feel the difference between these mice. In g100 at 1000dpi no jitter.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> you dont know what you're talking about
> adns305x has no smoothing


Avago 3050 is still garbage compared to the AM010, always has been.

Now we have the inept praising of the 3050 series when two years ago no one here on OCN recommended using that very same sensor, funny how times change.

The AM010 is still good so suddenly praising the 3050 over it, is quite perverted so we all want to know why this massive turn around of placing that 3050 sensor, above the proven performance of the AM010 sensor?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Avago has inherent smoothing


i was referring to this


----------



## DarthBaggins

Just got a Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum, so far a great mouse but I need to find other feet for it since the stockies feel rough on my mats (Glorious PC Gaming Race XXL and ASRock Gaming).


----------



## netari

hi, does anyone here know/remember if the Thermaltake TT eSports Volos has/can receive the updated firmware/srom that fixed the smoothing/input lag problem of its sensor (the notorious 9800)?
i made an inquiry at Thermaltake's forums and they 've been responsive so far but they have no idea of what im talking about
(http://community.thermaltake.com/index.php?/topic/52561-volos-sensor-firmware-update/)
don't dismiss my question because of your disapproval of that product, im not looking for a gaming mouse actually, my priorities are different
thank you for your time


----------



## M1st

Is there any info on 3330 and 3336 sensors? What are they actually and how do they perform?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *netari*
> 
> don't dismiss my question because of your disapproval of that product, im not looking for a gaming mouse actually, my priorities are different


lol.

Oh and they wouldn't know anyway what you were talking about. Thermaltake support is useless.

As for whether or not if it has it or not? If it does, you will notice it right away. At that point you could just return the mouse.

In my opinion Dexin cannot make a good mmo mouse to save their lives. Always good ideas and then poor execution.


----------



## netari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> As for whether or not if it has it or not? If it does, you will notice it right away. At that point you could just return the mouse.


how didn't i thought of that! oh wait... so who is going to give me my money back since there is no refund policy?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

I don't know. You'll tell me I guess?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Some random corrections.

Gigabyte M6980 = A6090
Gigabyte M6900 = PAW3305DK
Mad Catz Rat 3 V1= CYONS2001
Mad Catz Rat 3 V2= A3090

Eris H2 & the A6098 sensor were never released. It exists in the same sense as the pln A4Tech mouse, pln Tt Esports Black Element, laser diamondback, laser deathadder etc etc do. The latter two are examples of projects that were released in completely different forms compared to their original plans.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> ....


Will do once i found out why the RICH Editor is crashing my browsers.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

oh and anura uses the 9800 & 3060 in place of the 9500 & 3060 used in the meduza.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> oh and anura uses the 9800 & 3060 in place of the 9500 & 3060 used in the meduza.


Given the release time of it, i cant imagine a more cancerous combination....


----------



## MechanimaL

what about the razer diamondback 2015 / 5G what sensor do they use?


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MechanimaL*
> 
> what about the razer diamondback 2015 / 5G what sensor do they use?


TwinEye.


----------



## Alya

What makes a mouse fall under the "office" category? The VT5366 is pretty office, the applications in the investor page even indicate it wasn't meant to be used in gaming scenarios.

http://investors.st.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=111941&p=irol-newsArticle_print&ID=856232

Unless "This chip targets all optical mouse applications" means it falls under gaming :^)


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Oh and here's the earlier versions of this thread.

v1:
https://web.archive.org/web/20101031100543/http://www.overclock.net/mice/854100-ocn-mouse-sensor-reference-performance-sheet.html

v1.5:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111102001845/http://www.overclock.net/mice/854100-ocn-mouse-reference-thread.html

v2:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120911001616/http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/mouse-sensor-technology-guide-v2-0


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> What makes a mouse fall under the "office" category? The VT5366 is pretty office, the applications in the investor page even indicate it wasn't meant to be used in gaming scenarios.
> 
> http://investors.st.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=111941&p=irol-newsArticle_print&ID=856232
> 
> Unless "This chip targets all optical mouse applications" means it falls under gaming :^)


Well, being "sub-sub-par" in the sense of not being able to play due to not being able to use a large range of sensitivities, meaning the only thing you can do is 2D Work.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Oh and here's the earlier versions of this thread.


Splitting it up again with details came to my mind, but as stated, outside influence is too much of a deal and at this point in time its rather soemthing for a new thread. I should also check where "Jögi" went, just out of curiosity.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Heads up. I keep forgetting to return the Gamdias Zeus P1 which I regret purchasing. So I opened it up. No pics for now...

It uses the 3336 not the 3360. 3336 is the 3330 with higher dpi.

This mouse is also trash. Don't buy it.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Heads up. I keep forgetting to return the Gamdias Zeus P1 which I regret purchasing. So I opened it up. No pics for now...
> 
> It uses the 3336 not the 3360. 3336 is the 3330 with higher dpi.
> 
> This mouse is also trash. Don't buy it.


Can you explain what's 3330? Is it based on something? Was asking around a while ago, noone replied.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Can you explain what's 3330? Is it based on something? Was asking around a while ago, noone replied.


http://www.pixart.com.tw/product_data_table.asp?productclassify_id=1&productclassify2_id=3


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> http://www.pixart.com.tw/product_data_table.asp?productclassify_id=1&productclassify2_id=3


Thx, already seen that. I was wondering about stuff that's not in there, like if there are any tracking/liftoff bugs, jitter at certain CPI, smoothing, what are framerate modes etc.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Well you won't have to worry about malfunction speed that's for sure. However, I really don't like using this mouse for more than like 10 minutes at a time. It's pretty bad imo. Maybe it'll get a better look when more mainstream brands use it in their products. The upcoming Coolermaster Mastermouse S(3330) and Mad Catz Pro S+(3330) will have it.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Well you won't have to worry about malfunction speed that's for sure. However, I really don't like using this mouse for more than like 10 minutes at a time. It's pretty bad imo. Maybe it'll get a better look when more mainstream brands use it in their products. The upcoming Coolermaster Mastermouse S(3330) and Mad Catz Pro S+(3330) will have it.


Thanks for info.


----------



## Vkno1

You forgot tu put the nMouse Skydigital 4k in the list


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vkno1*
> 
> You forgot tu put the nMouse Skydigital 4k in the list


Brah, do you even CTRL+F? :>


----------



## Nano992

Sagitta Spectrum - 3988 srly ???


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nano992*
> 
> Sagitta Spectrum - 3988 srly ???


Why not? The 3988 sensor is a damn fine sensor, a little old today but still worth owning and playing with.



You provided an image of a sensor showing the 3310 version which is the actual one inside the Sagitta Spectrum.


----------



## woll3

So, what do people think about sorting it by Sensor instead?


----------



## wareya

+1


----------



## Alya

Would be better imo, much easier to find the sensor I'm interested in, I'd prefer that over having to press Ctrl+F and look for it, will variants of said sensor be included in the main list or have their own category?

e.g. S3888 variant into A3080 list. PMW3366 variant into PMW3360 list?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> will variants of said sensor be included in the main list or have their own category?
> 
> e.g. S3888 variant into A3080 list. PMW3366 variant into PMW3360 list?


I was thinking about putting "practically similar" stuff in one table, which in turn are in semi chronologically order(taking liberty with that for a better overview), similar to this:

*insert table with 2020 to 3080


SensorBrandModelS3888   RazerDeathadder 3.5GA3090   CoolerMasterSpawnS3095   LogitechG400

^3668 included here as well

*insert table with 3050 and Variations

*insert table with 3310/3988 and Variations

*insert table with 3366/3360 and Variations

*insert table with Mercury

*insert table with A6010/A6090 and Variations

*insert table with A9500/A9800 and Variations

*insert table with PTE

*insert table with ONS

The specific designations for each table can be thought out later.


----------



## Maximillion

Sounds good to me. Also somewhat more educational/informative for noobies.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Sounds good to me. Also somewhat more educational/informative for noobies.


YES, endeavor to trap all the young ones in hunting down all the sensor based designs released for the past 20 years.

Forget about collecting keyboards get them to start collecting MICE - 24/7







.

OCN, home of mouse fanatics and dreamers........


----------



## CorruptBE

Just noticed Finalmouse in the list:

"*Flamboyant Hair One*"


----------



## tweaker123

anyone know what the razer taipan sensor is? this one specifically

https://www.amazon.com/Razer-Taipan-Ambidextrous-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B008BGXYBM


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tweaker123*
> 
> anyone know what the razer taipan sensor is? this one specifically
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Razer-Taipan-Ambidextrous-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B008BGXYBM


9800 with the 50ms smoothing SROM, possibly? I hear it has awful amounts of input delay, but that's not the 3500 Taipan because it says "8200 CPI 4G Laser Sensor"


----------



## woll3

Its just a Taipan, dunno if fixes/updates have been made between the "dual" and singlesensor version though, or maybe to both, the early one i have(somewhere) was running with the "better to play on xbox" srom.


----------



## RevanCorana

Hello, im interested in buying a Tesoro Sharur but there are so many versions, is the rule that ones with 4000dpi have a 3090 and the ones with 2000dpi have the 3050?


----------



## farynaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> But people say (and I agree) that the MLT04 "feels" more natural while doing diagonal movement, even at normal movement speeds. Are there any inherent flaws that come to mind using the 1;1 mlt way of reporting in modern sensors? Maybe non-responsive cursor movement at very slow speeds using high dpi? I assume PTE sensors use the two-report way?


As for me MLT04 has even some sort of 45 degree angle snapping.


----------



## Bucake

wouldn't even surprise me as the VT sensors from st microelectronics have 45degree angle snapping. (or at least the one i tried.)
i've never detected any angle snapping with the mlt04 though, while it's very obvious with the VT sensor


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> wouldn't even surprise me as the VT sensors from st microelectronics have 45degree angle snapping. (or at least the one i tried.)


VT5366 has insane 45 degree angle snapping, the higher the CPI the worse the snapping is, 800 CPI is effectively unusable because of it. I think it could be because of firmware though.


----------



## Bucake

yeah fair enough, maybe i should start saying "mice with x sensor" rather than just "sensor". i didn't mean to imply that i think it's inherent to the sensor.

still can't believe that that tracking behavior was "OKd". you'd think someone would use it for a few minutes and go "...what have you done". and i feel the same way about the acceleration :E


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> still can't believe that that tracking behavior was "OKd". you'd think someone would use it for a few minutes and go "...what have you done". and i feel the same way about the acceleration :E


Angle snapping and acceleration is fine by me, but the amount of angle snapping the Kinzu has is rather bothersome, plus the amount of variance from the sensor, I can make the same movement two times and end up way further off than I should...so unusual.


----------



## Bucake

i'm fine with some degree of angle snapping.. but (apparently) not diagonal.
that, and the acceleration, they just threw me off, and eventually i got sick of it and boxed the kinzu. it was slightly too small for me, anyway. and non-coated sides, man!









has your ikari arrived yet btw? i'm curious to its condition - you're never sure with "refurbished"


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> i'm fine with some degree of angle snapping.. but (apparently) not diagonal.
> that, and the acceleration, they just threw me off, and eventually i got sick of it and boxed the kinzu. it was slightly too small for me, anyway. and non-coated sides, man!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> has your ikari arrived yet btw? i'm curious to its condition - you're never sure with "refurbished"


Not yet, should be here on the 27th or so.








I still love my Kinzu though, it's the perfect size for me, sensor is...meh at very best, clicks are good, scroll is good when it's not rattling.


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Not yet, should be here on the 27th or so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still love my Kinzu though, it's the perfect size for me, sensor is...meh at very best, clicks are good, scroll is good when it's not rattling.


opinion? too bulky?









got mine today and it's barely used, if at all. still has a "new" smell too.
nice coating on the sides, decent finish for the top, clicks are OK, lousy scroll wheel,
sensor performance absolutely kills the kinzu's, though









seems to malfunction somewhere around 3,5m/s on my glass pad, more than enough for me.
surprisingly low ripple at 1600 on that pad, definitely usable. the prediction is obvious but it doesn't seem to bother me


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> the prediction is obvious but it doesn't seem to bother me


Do "prediction" and "angle snapping" terms refer to same thing? It suddenly dawned on me that it's technically possible to create and apply an algorithm that actually predicts movement.


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Do "prediction" and "angle snapping" terms refer to same thing?


Yes.

Don't worry. I was late to that party, too.


----------



## Bucake

yeah. "prediction" suits it better than "correction" or "angle snapping" imo.
i guess the naming refers to predicting that you want to move in a straight line. no idea who started the term, or when. must've been a fair while ago.


----------



## M1st

Well i just wanted to confirm. It suddenly dawned on me that it's possible to apply an algorithm that actually _predicts_ movement, similar to how smoothing is done but instead of interpolating cursor path, it's possible to extrapolate it, analyzing acceleration trend and reporting expected cursor position instead of current.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Well i just wanted to confirm. It suddenly dawned on me that it's possible to apply an algorithm that actually _predicts_ movement, similar to how smoothing is done but instead of interpolating cursor path, it's possible to extrapolate it, analyzing acceleration trend and reporting expected cursor position instead of current.


It would predict, doesnt necessarily mean that it will be correct though.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Well i just wanted to confirm. It suddenly dawned on me that it's possible to apply an algorithm that actually _predicts_ movement, similar to how smoothing is done but instead of interpolating cursor path, it's possible to extrapolate it, analyzing acceleration trend and reporting expected cursor position instead of current.


Is that not what the accelerometer in the G402 does?


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> It would predict, doesnt necessarily mean that it will be correct though.


I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be correct. Doesn't mean that noone would implement that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Is that not what the accelerometer in the G402 does?


I guess, yes. But i'm talking about getting acceleration not from accelerometer but from normal sensor input, like you can get velocity from counts and time.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be correct. Doesn't mean that noone would implement that.


But why? Thats the question.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> But why? Thats the question.


As a gimmick, to create basis for marketing words like "First mouse in the world that predicts future... advanced tech... breakthrough..." etc. I mean i see no reason for it personally aside from trying it out of curiosity. But i can totally imagine smth like this as a kickstarter project.


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> First mouse in the world that predicts future


hahah


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RevanCorana*
> 
> Hello, im interested in buying a Tesoro Sharur but there are so many versions, is the rule that ones with 4000dpi have a 3090 and the ones with 2000dpi have the 3050?


I'm kinda interested in the Sharur spectrum. Does anybody own it?
I've found some lousy reviews claiming adns5050 but that doesn't make sense.
Can't find any pcb pictures.
Don't have much hope as most 3090 mice have bad firmware but who knows.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> I'm kinda interested in the Sharur spectrum. Does anybody own it?
> I've found some lousy reviews claiming adns5050 but that doesn't make sense.
> Can't find any pcb pictures.


Interesting, as previous stated specs were inline with 3050 and 3090, now we have no specs and 3050 specs, so yeah its probably 5050, and 3050, i will change them to the "current gen" regardless of older versions, f them.


----------



## daniel0731ex

This thread is outdated. Here is an updated version with today's better-informed sensibilities:

*Gaming Mouse Sensor List:*

3366
Mercury

/endlist


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Interesting, as previous stated specs were inline with 3050 and 3090, now we have no specs and 3050 specs, so yeah its probably 5050, and 3050, i will change them to the "current gen" regardless of older versions, f them.


4000cpi on a 5050 ? 

No pcb shots so not sure how reliable the info is.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*
> 
> This thread is outdated. Here is an updated version with today's better-informed sensibilities:
> 
> *Gaming Mouse Sensor List:*
> 
> 3366
> Mercury
> 
> /endlist


Tell me a flaw in the 3310 that operates in my ZA13 because I couldn't. And I play at a pretty high level.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> 4000cpi on a 5050 ?
> 
> No pcb shots so not sure how reliable the info is.


Ive seen it quite often recently, nothing speaks against 5050 using the same multipliers as 3050, except its performance of course.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Tell me a flaw in the 3310 that operates in my ZA13 because I couldn't. And I play at a pretty high level.


Weve been through this.


----------



## shaiaz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Tell me a flaw in the 3310 that operates in my ZA13 because I couldn't. And I play at a pretty high level.


Just feels really slow and sluggish to me :/


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*
> 
> This thread is outdated. Here is an updated version with today's better-informed sensibilities:
> 
> *Gaming Mouse Sensor List:*
> 
> 3366
> Mercury
> 
> /endlist


The marketing department of the Logitech not in vain gets the money. In my opinion, the list should look like this:
Divine MLT04
sensors who wanna be MLT04
LOL


----------



## Alya

VT5366 is MLT04's younger, more ill brother though. They have the same parents after all.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Ive seen it quite often recently, nothing speaks against 5050 using the same multipliers as 3050, except its performance of course.


1375 cpi in steps of 125. 4000 = 1000*4 ?








1 count 4 pixels?
"New" 2000cpi srom?
Registers differ between the two so I don't think you can load a 3050 srom in a 5050.


----------



## MissHaswellE

Does anyone know what sensor the Naga HEX V2 uses?


----------



## blah238

Does anyone know what sensor is in the Microsoft Trackball Explorer? And if it's possible/worthwhile to increase the polling rate?


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissHaswellE*
> 
> Does anyone know what sensor the Naga HEX V2 uses?


should be PLN2034

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blah238*
> 
> Does anyone know what sensor is in the Microsoft Trackball Explorer? And if it's possible/worthwhile to increase the polling rate?


should be H2000, iirc is not stable at or above 250hz. it can possibly do 200hz stably since it also works over PS/2, but i can't remember


----------



## MissHaswellE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> should be PLN2034


That's for the naga hex v2 and the Naga chroma new one right?


----------



## zaebb

Hi bros

I am looking for the best fps mouse for myself latest version avago chip series







Can someone help me ?


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zaebb*
> 
> Hi bros
> 
> I am looking for the best fps mouse for myself latest version avago chip series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone help me ?


http://www.overclock.net/t/1139543/official-the-mouse-suggestion-thread


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zaebb*
> 
> Hi bros
> 
> I am looking for the best fps mouse for myself latest version avago chip series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone help me ?


Hi bro. Avago hasn't been making mouse sensors for years.
They sold mouse sensor designs to Pixart.

The pmw336x is the latest design.

There are plenty of mice using that family of sensors and a lot of info on this forum about them, each with it's pros and cons, happy reading


----------



## zaebb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Hi bro. Avago hasn't been making mouse sensors for years.
> They sold mouse sensor designs to Pixart.
> 
> The pmw336x is the latest design.
> 
> There are plenty of mice using that family of sensors and a lot of info on this forum about them, each with it's pros and cons, happy reading


thank you my friend I got to answer.


----------



## Notty

I´m here to give my feedback on the Logitech G403 (PMW3366) wich I got today. I´m doing it because I appreciated ppl opinions before I made the phurcase, so maybe someone can read this too.

This is the best mouse I ever used. Had already Zowie models with 3310, Razer Deathadder with the 3389 and some other laser mice. No mouse is snappy, smooth and precise as this one.

Mind you, the shape is VERY important. I tested G303 wich has the same sensor and I don´t like it as much as the G403, because is too small and aim tends to be shaky. You need consistency on your hand/grip to make the PMW3366 precision shine.

If anyone doubts about its potential for clawgrip and fingertip. don´t worry. My hands are small and I can fingertip this mouse without any problem! It´s very light and so confortable and the buttons are the best I seen aswell. It´s a pleasure to click on them.

I found it, the "perfect" mouse to me. If I have one complain about it, the feet causes some friction on cloth pads, but I read it goes away in 2 weeks.

All my records have been beaten both for Aimbooster . com and on MW3 "Stay sharp" mission where you shoot some targets while you run. This on the first day of usage, so things can only get better. My aim is really improved.

Kudos to Zowie mice and Deathadder, they are great products too, but this PMW3366 sensor if well used is just too good. So for someone reading this, don´t hesitate.


----------



## raad11

How can the Razer Deathadder 3500 and 3.5G be listed as having different sensors when it's the same mouse? It's the Deathadder 3500/3.5G.


----------



## raad11

Are PMW3361 and PMW3367 the same sensor as PMW3360/PMW3366?

And is PMW3389 newer than those? Or better?

Which is considered the current "best" sensor?


----------



## drewno

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raad11*
> 
> Are PMW3361 and PMW3367 the same sensor as PMW3360/PMW3366?
> 
> And is PMW3389 newer than those? Or better?
> 
> Which is considered the current "best" sensor?


They're all supposed to be the same hardware wise. Based on what i did read about it here, the only difference is that, anything else than 3360 uses a custom SROM specifically made by each mice producent.


----------



## wareya

The SROM is not made by each mouse producer. The SROM is made by Pixart. It's also encrypted so that licensees can't modify it.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Spoiler: The hell are these?


----------



## Melan

Arctic's attempt at gaming mice.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Touché! The day is yours Melan!

I suppose I could have just cropped everything out, except for the visible area of the sensors.


----------



## Melan

It's a laser sensor. Don't ask how I know.


----------



## pindle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Arctic's attempt at gaming mice.


+ Pez dispenser? (2nd pic)


----------



## Melan

I would love a mouse with Pez dispenser, but unfortunately those are just weights.


----------



## Maximillion

god-tier sensor position.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> It's a laser sensor. Don't ask how I know.


The first thing it reminded me of was the vt5366. Without a lens.


----------



## pindle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> I would love a mouse with Pez dispenser, but unfortunately those are just weights.


Figured... bummer


----------



## woll3

Go Home Trust, youre drunk.


----------



## Klopfer

_GXT 170 HERON_


----------



## OCmember

Where is the best place to get reliable up to date info on gaming Mice? I've saved this thread from years ago, just not up to date on things. Looking for the best gaming mouse for games like the Unreal Tournament series (if that helps narrow things)


----------



## drewno

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OCmember*
> 
> Where is the best place to get reliable up to date info on gaming Mice? I've saved this thread from years ago, just not up to date on things. Looking for the best gaming mouse for games like the Unreal Tournament series (if that helps narrow things)


http://www.overclock.net/f/375/mice

anyway this list seem to be consistently updated, for example cm storm mm530 and 520 on the list were released this week.


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OCmember*
> 
> Where is the best place to get reliable up to date info on gaming Mice? I've saved this thread from years ago, just not up to date on things. Looking for the best gaming mouse for games like the Unreal Tournament series (if that helps narrow things)


This thread is about just the sensors. We have a specific thread for getting a gaming mouse.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1139543/official-the-mouse-suggestion-thread


----------



## OCmember

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *OCmember*
> 
> Where is the best place to get reliable up to date info on gaming Mice? I've saved this thread from years ago, just not up to date on things. Looking for the best gaming mouse for games like the Unreal Tournament series (if that helps narrow things)
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is about just the sensors. We have a specific thread for getting a gaming mouse.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1139543/official-the-mouse-suggestion-thread
Click to expand...

Thank you









How are the "Bloody" mouse sensors? They claim the fastest click response also. Is that true?

Thanks again


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OCmember*
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How are the "Bloody" mouse sensors? They claim the fastest click response also. Is that true?
> 
> Thanks again


Horrible.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *OCmember*
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How are the "Bloody" mouse sensors? They claim the fastest click response also. Is that true?
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> 
> 
> Horrible.
Click to expand...

The sensors aren't what you guys here on OCN would love. Older styled lazer stuff, which I have bought over the years and used.

If they actually put in a new version of a 3366 sensor, coupled with their current range of switches and scroll wheels, they could in essence usurp the Razer and Logitec podium in producing superior gaming mice.


----------



## Melan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> they could in essence usurp the Razer and Logitec podium in producing superior gaming mice.


Good joke old man.


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

There will always be coprophils fans of a4tech


----------



## OCmember

So out of all the sensors currently being sold today, what is the best?


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OCmember*
> 
> So out of all the sensors currently being sold today, what is the best?


3360/3361/3366/3389/true move01 (ss)


----------



## Bucake

UT, yeah those games have the best cursor handling


----------



## HerrPfotig

Hello, does anybody know which sensor the Roccat Nyth uses?
From the picture it looks like a PLN / Philips-Twin-Eye



"Twin-Tech Laser Sensor R1 mit bis zu 12000 dpi "


----------



## Melan

It is a Phillips Twin eye.


----------



## MattH5

Any idea what Sensor the Redimp GM200 might have? It has max 4000 DPI, 1000 MHz, 20G, 6000 FPS.

I am trying to decide between it and the Blade Hawk for roughly the same price, which shows its sensor as the Avago ADNS-3050 in a product pic, and which I believe is deemed "okay" (for its price).

Edit: Aah, sorry, on Amazon.com it mentions the sensor as exactly the same (or at least "Avago A3050") for the Redimp. Only in my regions it doesn't, not even on the redimp website.

That said, know if any of the cheaper mice (yes, with about 15 bucks they are near the top end of similar products) have the chip?
(I'd like to see my current mouse purchase as a "non-investment", but good for its purposes and price range. I last had a standard cheap Logitech, after a used Razer...)


----------



## MattH5

I consider the latest withholding of my post, after several editings (which apparently included the misstep in the thread of a tentative asking for suggestions), as a pompous and personal action (no matter how "trivial", go figure), and will not be using this forum anymore. Otherwise I would have liked to delete my account, which is not possible, but you may still do, if you want.


----------



## adacsaba

Finally i got some new mice, bought off a few A4tech ones from the second hand market as well...

Left to right, first line: Bloody V8A, A4tech X-718BF, then Oscar X-718BK with A3080 and the one with PMW3305,
second line: Bloody A90 , Razer DeathAdder 4G, Asus Gladius, Bloody ZL5A, Logitech G502



I always wanted an A3080 mouse, now i have 2 , two different generations. The X718BK with PMW3305 is curios, not exactly the Revision 2 variant, but an intermediary design, between the old A3080 based one and Rev.2 .

The Gladius, G502 and the DA are a good reference for comparison. I truly like the A4tech mice, all of them. Not only these have the most advanced macro support ever was implemented in a gaming device, but also the strange form and the peculiar sensor implementation makes them a class apart.

The 3080



The 3305



The lower side of the strange revision 718BK (with the 3305)



So finally, after so long these models became obsolete , got the answer for the query i placed on this forum, back then, all by myself, after all. Only personal experience will be able to reveal how a certain mouse form will feel in your hands , or a sensor to perform, and to be honest,most of the reviews on Youtube or else are garbage at best, just people looking for cheap popularity, nothing more.

The only truly useful review i ever found was the one made by Sujoy in 2007 on esreality (long obsolete by now), and the sensor list on this very thread (with some more bits and bobs overall around on this forum).


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> Finally i got some new mice, bought off a few A4tech ones from the second hand market as well...
> 
> second line: Bloody A90


My version, the AL90 is my current all time Favourite A4tech mouse.

Simply superbly built, tough and takes an awful amount of abuse with drops to the concrete floor, without suffering any damage.

You can't do that with 90% of other mice produced, so that is why I love the AL90







.


----------



## Kenisha

http://www.overclock.net/t/1644359/digital-alliance-g-premium-pmw3360-omron-switch


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adacsaba*
> 
> Finally i got some new mice, bought off a few A4tech ones from the second hand market as well...


Why did you have to waste money on so many mice you already know will be crap?
Oh what you actually like them? Low quality plastic/finish with low end sensors?
What's so curious about a 3305 lol?
A part form the fact that all cpi steps are off by a lot on the x718bk (like 600 being 800 or what not, don't remember exactly, a friend has it)


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Why did you have to waste money on so many mice you already know will be crap?
> Oh what you actually like them? Low quality plastic/finish with low end sensors?
> What's so curious about a 3305 lol?
> A part form the fact that all cpi steps are off by a lot on the x718bk (like 600 being 800 or what not, don't remember exactly, a friend has it)


What's wrong with collecting?


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> What's wrong with collecting?


everything is good except for a4tech mice Kappa


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> What's wrong with collecting?


Nothing at all. Whilst your alive ALWAYS keep on collecting because it defines us as being more than just animals within this world, that are only content with breeding and eating.

Hence go forth and pick up more and keep the capitalist system turning over as any good practitioner knows







.


----------



## adacsaba

The most used one is a Deathadder GuildWars edition with FW 1.39 NDC, though it has it's own drawbacks...Then there comes the A4tech Bloody A90, trailed by the Gladius, the Deathadder 4G, and the X7 with 3080. The Proteus G502 is quite crap, though when i bought it, was claimed to be the best gaming mouse in the world . Least used, that is. The rest of them is used casually, for fun. I actually play with all 12 of them, now and then...The 3090 based one is on it's way...And another with S3366. Then on a bit longer term, the G203 with the Mercury, i 'm very curious about that particular sensor.

I'm not Fatal1ty Wendel, for sure. But with every single one of the gaming mice i own can do around 70k in aim400kg, so as sensors go, the 3366 doesn't do better than the 3305 in my hands. Best reaction time i got was with the A90 , around 180 ms so far. With the rest, close to 200 (debounce filter lag).

One can get used to acceleration and prediction of a particular model, if using it long enough, make no doubt about that. As long as it's of a reasonable level. Now i'm not talking of the A2020 here, though my very first optical mouse, the A4tech SWOP 23 won me many battles, an age ago...Though today i wouldn't consider it a gaming mouse, not by a long shot. That amount of prediction i'm not willing to get used to ( again, lol). But on an 1024x768 screen back then, it wasn't that bad. I think. Well, not worse than the Mx515 or ***, it has it's label off for 10 years now.

Then only real impediment is (if the case) the low malfunction rate of a sensor, to that, there is no way to get used to...


----------



## revertex

I don't kown if someone still updating the list, if so, James Donkey 325RS comes with PMW3330, same as Cooler Master MasterMouse S.


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Alienware aw958 is supposedly 3360


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

Came across a mouse and wanted to see if people had any experiences with the sensor, its an A814.

Used in a Giyach Ergo https://www.amazon.com/Giyach-Ergon...&sr=8-13&keywords=intellimouse#CustomerImages

I am just curious. Thanks.


----------



## he4th

any one have link the the original Microsoft Blue mouse that uses same sensor as WMO. interested in trying it out if its lighter.


----------



## Gamer001

Hy. 
Add this to the database:

A4 tech XL-750MK Laser mouse.
Sensor: A9500
Bought: 2018.08
Made: 2012.02

proof:


----------



## 0verpowered

MattH5 said:


> Any idea what Sensor the Redimp GM200 might have? It has max 4000 DPI, 1000 MHz, 20G, 6000 FPS.
> 
> I am trying to decide between it and the Blade Hawk for roughly the same price, which shows its sensor as the Avago ADNS-3050 in a product pic, and which I believe is deemed "okay" (for its price).
> 
> Edit: Aah, sorry, on Amazon.com it mentions the sensor as exactly the same (or at least "Avago A3050") for the Redimp. Only in my regions it doesn't, not even on the redimp website.
> 
> That said, know if any of the cheaper mice (yes, with about 15 bucks they are near the top end of similar products) have the chip?
> (I'd like to see my current mouse purchase as a "non-investment", but good for its purposes and price range. I last had a standard cheap Logitech, after a used Razer...)


I've been using the kinzu v3 which has a 3050 in it at 500 cpi, found no issues with it during my use. It doesn't spin out for me or anything even if i swipe it fast and feels accurate. RJN during his review didnt find any issues with the sensor during gaming as well. It gets a bad rap compared to the A3090 but its perfectly usable for gaming.


----------



## quachuoi2

Mouse:Asus ROG Strix Evolve
SensorMW 3330
Type: Optical
CPI/DPI: up to 7200
Speed: 150IPS
Acceleration: 30G
Polling rate :1000Hz


----------



## adacsaba

The A4tech Bloody A90 has the A3050 as well. It has many times better build quality than the Deathadder Elite, more beautiful overall, etc. Also if you remove the weight inside, can get it down to <80g , which makes it a very light mouse for it's fairly large size. Quite a pleasure using it.

I do have an Cougar 300M as well with the A3090 , both have about the Deathadders' shape so it's a fair comparison. The 3050 is more jittery than the 3090 for sure, but it's tracking speed is just as fast (people usually won't be able to do faster swipes than about 2m/s anyways), no significant acceleration or prediction. And as you mentioned it's more than just "usable" , quite good a sensor. I actually do like the A90 so much that i bought the Ultra Core 4 unlock as well...for a mere $9.99 from the Çhinks themselves... What i love with the A30x0 series is the "snappy" feeling of the sensor.


----------



## adacsaba

Speaking of sensors... Does anyone know what the mysterious "optical engine" is in the new A4tech Bloody P80/P30 Pro mice ? These look nice, the P30 seems to have the WMO shape of their old V3 mouse (with the 3305), the P80 looks like the Logitech G Pro/102/202 family. Unlikely coincidence. The specs posted on their site

TECH SPECS
PERFORMANCE
Memory: 160K
Acceleration: 30 g
Max. Resolution: 12000 CPI 
Tracking Speed: 75 inches/sec(ips)
Image Processing: 368 Mega pixels/sec
...
Report Rate: 125~1000 Hz/sec (4-level adjustable)
...
Sensor: Optical Engine
...

Now, the 368 Mpixels/s processing speed is interesting, so is the 12000 CPI resolution ( coincidence again ?) . However the lowly 75 IPS tracking speed is crap, so it cannot be a 3360 or derivative. It cannot be the 3325 either (from the new 33xx series anything below the 3330 is garbage, have a RAT 1 , it's quite crap, so i'll skip 3325 as well). Obviously it isn't an 3050 nor the aging 3305 (though the 75 IPS comes close to the 3305 based V-track engine).

Does any of you guys own it, dismantled it, etc. yet ? To be honest, i'm pretty eager to get one of those, but it will be late until it becomes available in my country.

Fairly justified rhetorical question: why in the ruddy hell doesn't/didn't use A4tech one of the upper midrange to top end sensors until now (or never) ? These sensors , low end , high end, etc. aren't expensive, never were. Even the 3360 it's like $5-10 / piece in rolls. The could have made a 3090 , 3310 based top end device long ago, that with the great shape and weight of some of their mice and the amazing macro support would be a top contender. Or a custom sensor , for that matter. They do original development for sure, extremely durable metal glides, their optical switches are unique, did some sensor implementations of their own, the previous low latency mechanical switch implementations were great, the recoil suppression macro engine is , even if not used, amazing, to have it...

There is some Çhink idiocy in all that effort. Take the Z/ZL50 Sniper, the sniper button can barely be pressed, so deeply sunk in the body. The ML Commander has the macro buttons on the right click position, with no normal right click possibility. The keyboards, have the most impressive macro engine, fast response, but no dedicated macro keys to program. And so on.


----------



## jayfkay

Best 3360+ implementation?


----------



## adacsaba

No idea. I only have a Logitech G Pro, an 502 Proteus, the non-RGB version and the DA Elite; on an absolute scale none of these can be called "best" by a long road. Great mice otherwise, but the Proteus is too heavy, the Pro too small, and the DA is garbage overall.

Anyone, do you have any update on the A4tech Bloody P80/P30 ?


----------



## 0verpowered

12,000 cpi, 30g sounds like a 3360. Although it says 75 ips, 3360 normally has 150. Maybe its a misnomer, as I haven't seen any other optical sensor do 12,000+cpi, unless they scaled it like crazy.


----------



## adacsaba

Either way, i'm gonna get one as soon as these models show up in my country.


----------



## vanir1337

Just don't belive the tech specs. Some Chinese/other Asian companies don't know anything about what they're selling.


----------



## jayfkay

its truly a shame the *TRUEMOVE 3 esburtz pro juan:juan* is steelseries only


----------



## tomy91

There's a Gigabyte AORUS M5 mouse recently released utilizing Pixart 3389 sensor and 50m Omron switches. The cost is very attractive in Baltics starting at around 55€.


----------



## vanir1337

tomy91 said:


> There's a Gigabyte AORUS M5 mouse recently released utilizing Pixart 3389 sensor and 50m Omron switches. The cost is very attractive in Baltics starting at around 55€.


Not that much of a bargain tbh and there's been a lot of problems with Gigabyte before.


----------



## tomy91

Well, the popular 3360/3366 models are even more expensive. Logitech G403, Razer DeathAdder Elite, Zowie EC1-B, HyperX Pulsefire FPS Pro, Steelseries Rival 310 and ASUS Gladius II Origin costs around 65-70€ here. The two much cheaper options are HP Omen 600 at €40 and CM MM530 for €35. Which one of the mice I mentioned would you recommend for a low sensitivity FPS gamer?


----------



## cdcd

tomy91 said:


> Well, the popular 3360/3366 models are even more expensive. Logitech G403, Razer DeathAdder Elite, Zowie EC1-B, HyperX Pulsefire FPS Pro, Steelseries Rival 310 and ASUS Gladius II Origin costs around 65-70€ here. The two much cheaper options are HP Omen 600 at €40 and CM MM530 for €35. Which one of the mice I mentioned would you recommend for a low sensitivity FPS gamer?


The Omen 600 is a really good mouse aside from its odd 'reset' feature which results in CPI being reset to default upon pressing M1 and M2 for five seconds simultaneously, which renders the mouse useless for many users. Therefore I'd recommend the MM530 which is very solid all around. Make sure to remove the internal weight though.


----------



## JackCY

G403 cost about 40 EUR with tax in EU, look for deals. I'm done paying 60+ EUR for a mouse, they were all crap. Find a mouse that fits you best, more expensive definitely doesn't mean better at all.
Sure without deals and a bit of waiting you're gonna overpay even on most Logitech mice, still locally not great right now but from Germany it's 45 EUR... look around.

Anything with main buttons not split from the shell is junk to be avoided.


----------



## ToTheSun!

JackCY said:


> G403 cost about 40 EUR with tax in EU, look for deals. I'm done paying 60+ EUR for a mouse, they were all crap. Find a mouse that fits you best, more expensive definitely doesn't mean better at all.
> Sure without deals and a bit of waiting you're gonna overpay even on most Logitech mice, still locally not great right now but from Germany it's 45 EUR... look around.
> 
> Anything with main buttons not split from the shell is junk to be avoided.


I've seen the G403 for €30 at times. That has got to be the absolute best mouse you can get at that price, assuming the shape is fine for you.

Thinking about it, it kind of speaks to how overpriced most mice really are...


----------



## Klopfer

Anyone here knows something about the Sensor called “SPCP6651“ ?
It will be a budget sensor because its in the new sharkoon skiller sgm2 ( hansung gtune m40 aim Clone ) 
~20€
Edit:
Max cpi: 6400
Min cpi: 400
Fps: 6000
Ips: 66
Max G: 22.5

http://www.sunplusit.com/EN/Product/Peripheral/SPCP6651B


----------



## Stuttergame

Klopfer said:


> Anyone here knows something about the Sensor called “SPCP6651“ ?
> http://www.sunplusit.com/EN/Product/Peripheral/SPCP6651B




I'm also curios about that.


----------



## eric98k

adacsaba said:


> Speaking of sensors... Does anyone know what the mysterious "optical engine" is in the new A4tech Bloody P80/P30 Pro mice ? These look nice, the P30 seems to have the WMO shape of their old V3 mouse (with the 3305), the P80 looks like the Logitech G Pro/102/202 family. Unlikely coincidence. The specs posted on their site
> 
> TECH SPECS
> PERFORMANCE
> Memory: 160K
> Acceleration: 30 g
> Max. Resolution: 12000 CPI
> Tracking Speed: 75 inches/sec(ips)
> Image Processing: 368 Mega pixels/sec
> ...
> Report Rate: 125~1000 Hz/sec (4-level adjustable)
> ...
> Sensor: Optical Engine
> ...
> 
> Now, the 368 Mpixels/s processing speed is interesting, so is the 12000 CPI resolution ( coincidence again ?) . However the lowly 75 IPS tracking speed is crap, so it cannot be a 3360 or derivative. It cannot be the 3325 either (from the new 33xx series anything below the 3330 is garbage, have a RAT 1 , it's quite crap, so i'll skip 3325 as well). Obviously it isn't an 3050 nor the aging 3305 (though the 75 IPS comes close to the 3305 based V-track engine).
> 
> Does any of you guys own it, dismantled it, etc. yet ? To be honest, i'm pretty eager to get one of those, but it will be late until it becomes available in my country.


PMW3360: https://thinkcomputers.org/bloody-fires-at-the-competition-with-optical-switches/

P80 Pro: http://www.bloody.com/en/product.php?pid=10&id=202
P30 Pro: http://www.bloody.com/en/product.php?pid=10&id=201
V3M: http://www.bloody.com/en/product.php?pid=10&id=104


----------



## farynaa

eric98k said:


> PMW3360: https://thinkcomputers.org/bloody-fires-at-the-competition-with-optical-switches/
> 
> P80 Pro: http://www.bloody.com/en/product.php?pid=10&id=202
> P30 Pro: http://www.bloody.com/en/product.php?pid=10&id=201
> V3M: http://www.bloody.com/en/product.php?pid=10&id=104


AFAIK 3360 is NOT confirmed.

http://www.bloody.com/ru/product.php?pid=10&id=166#full-specification-container

Russian version says it has 20g and 250 ips. English version says it is 30g and 75 ips.

Mine feels like it is not 3360. There is definitely huge negative acceleration. Something similar to my old korean version Deathadder. I'll try to do surface calibration.

ADDED
It seems, sensor calibration did the trick. Additionally, I've set lift-off distance to max value. And accel has gone. So far, P30 pro seems to be quite good choice. 30 obamas for 3360 with very fast buttons (didn't measure but a4tech states there is 0.2 ms delay). weight is about 106-107g. Build quality is ok.


----------



## adacsaba

looks like the rage of gaming mouse sensors settled ...
@eric98k the V3M has the PMW3305 , doesn't count. the P series, well still unavailable here.


----------



## marand97

There are more models from Dream Machiens Coming up such as DM1 FPS, DM5 Blink, DM 2 Comf, Comfy S what about them?


----------



## adacsaba

*Been so long*

Apparently they've changed the site, they are now listing the P91 Pro as equipped with the PMW 3389 sensor (Deathadder Elite) and the P Pro line is listed as of 16 000 CPI. A while back it was 12 000 CPI (we suspected PMW 3360). Also their Polish site still lists the P30 Pro as equipped with the 3360. 

For a while now Trust, Redragon, Natec Genesis has high end models with the 3360 , these are quite cheap. Not sure why A4tech waited so long. They have a strange policy, they list the new models on their site few months up to a year before these actually become available commercially around the world. I've looked and looked, not even Amazon had the P Pro series back then. 

My P30 Pro is coming today, we'll now now for a fact. Once i've played a few hours of Planetside 2 with it, i will disassamble it, remove the counter weight, take a few photos of then post them here.

If all true, A4tech finally made a real high end set of mice, to complement their already high end keyboards. We'll see.


----------



## adacsaba

Btw, the DA Elite's sensor is quite good. While the body shape is decent, the build quality is utterly sh'it. Nevertheless, i've found it usable after a lot of time , had to tinker a bit with additional glides.

If they've put the 3389 into the P30 Pro, we may now have the perfect mouse on the market. After counter weight removed, of course. Did so with the A90 i have, and it's amazing. Even with it's inferior 3050 , it's fairly precise, "blazing" (pun intended) fast and light (after the aforementioned crap weight removed) , and one of the most perfectly carved shape ever. As shape goes, only the V7M's body surpasses it (though, there is no flawless sensor with that shape, the only existing model is equipped with the 3305 )


----------



## adacsaba

It just arrived. However, the physical inspection left me disappointed. 

Packaging: it changed, of a lesser quality than the previous gallery type packaging , it's 3 boxes, an external envelope, a middle black, thick cardboard box and inside, the transparent plastic shell. Looks great, but the materials are cheaper than they have previously used.

The Mouse

1.) Body: 

Nearly identical to the V3M as, has the buttons on separate hinges (unlike the A9/90 ) . The plastic is not the silky rubber coated type they used, but feels more like the same cheap creaky trash Razer is using lately. Identical rugged surface as the new Deathadders have. Here we definitely have a major decrease in quality. It's not as a solid construction as the A90 has, by long. Buttons rattle when the mouse is hit against the pad, and click casually. If the main buttons are immobilized, the lens , middle or side buttons do not rattle though. Casting is garbage, the panels do not fit completely together, there is discernable dislocation , when pressed from top down. 
Weight without the small counterweight and it's fixing screw is roughly 72g, quite good, good 15 grams lighter than the Elite.

Verdict : poor 

2.) Cable and USB plug:

The cable is fine, very similar to what now we find on high end mice, like the G Pro or the new Dethadders, etc. Light, very soft, somewhat thing braided black cable. The USB is not gold coated.

Verdict : fine

3.) Glide pads:

The same red eloxated aluminium glides A4tech had been using on all ... M mice. Very strong, glass like oxide coating on the surface, it's very low friction even on Control type mouse pads. Though i like the innovative idea, requires a special mid type pad surface, something between Control and Speed, to be a little draggy, or otherwise it involuntarily glides backwards while clicking (the buttons are somewhat strong, especially when new). 

4.) Lighting:

Only the Bloody logo is RGB lit, the color mixing in the software is all messed up. ALso the logo is smaller than the similar shaped mice they previously released. The 3 middle function buttons are not lit at all. The scroll / 3rd button is lit, but the colors are pre set. 

Verdict: acceptable

5.) Buttons:

Soft , tactile , clicky. Fairly short travel to actuation, it's shorter than the G Pro, Longer than the Deathadder Elite. The plastic button pressure plates rattle when the mouse is shook, appear to be loose in the hinges. According to A4tech tradition, damn fast though. The microswitch is opto electronic Lightstrike only on the main buttons, but feels different than the one in the A90. The two side buttons and the 3 middle function buttons are some random, cheap mechanical switches. The scroll wheel is transparent with a fine rubber streak in the middle, the switch is somewhat hard to press. Scroll is fine , ticky, very precise.

Verdict: aside the rattle, fine.

6.) Software:

Comes with Core 4 activated, all blows and whistles. The RGB color mixer is bugged in the latest Bloody 7 version.

Verdict: fine

7.) Sensor:

I don't know yet the sensor model. The package and software lists it as of 12 000 CPI, should be the 3360 then. However, their main site lists it as of 16 000 CPI, so there is a chance there is a newer model with the 3389 , maybe they also re-built the chassis as well, with the older , better quality plastic. As tracking goes, it's most responsive , way faster than any other mice. I own many now, with almost all the major sensors ever released, while not yet all, still working on... For now have 3305, 3310, 3320, 3330, 3050, 3060, 3066, 3389, 3080, 3090, 3668, 3888, 3988, TrueMove, Mercury, A 9800 from various vendors, so there is a base line for sure. A4tech has the fastest sensor and switch actuation implemented, by a long shot.

Verdict: exceptional. 

8.) Price

In my country, it hails for 46-47 US Dollars, it's somewhat expensive , compared to the Redragon COBRA M711-FPS or the Natec Genesis Krypton 770 , which come at less than 33 US Dollars, and have better build quality and much much more catching RGB lighting. Less fancy software though.

Verdict: poor

I saw no benefit in favor of Light Strike from the previous mechanical switches whatsoever. These switches are so fast, some times browsers or misc windows panels don't even detect the actuation, will need to add at least 10 ms delay from the software. These are also stronger than their mech switches were. Shape is fine, the actuation plates and the body material is trash, the overall build quality is significantly inferior to previous Bloody models. It's disappointing actually.


----------



## adacsaba

I did disassamble it after all. There was a 10g counterweight, which , naturally, i removed. Confirmed, it is a PMW 3360, so that means there are 2 versions of the Bloody Pro series, one with 3360 and a second revision, with 3389.

@Skylit or @Bullveyr or @DeMS or whoever is maintaining the list now, please add the A4tech Bloody P30 Pro to the list of 3360s !

Also, they switched away from the STM32 MCUs, now they are using a SONIX microcontroller, i couldn't read the model number.

The scroll rotary encoder seems mechanical once more. The middle button switch their old mechanical model.


----------



## Pator5

Hi guys i want to contribute a bit , i'm new here btw. Genesis Krypton 400 has a PMW 3320


----------



## Gamer001

Guys what happened with the topic? That's unreadable. And why dead?


----------



## cdcd

Gamer001 said:


> Guys what happened with the topic? That's unreadable. And why dead?


The HTML clean-up that would make it readable again is still pending. In the meantime, you can copy and paste it here: HTML5 Editor - Free Online Content Composer


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

Gamer001 said:


> Guys what happened with the topic? That's unreadable. And why dead?



The mice and sensor hardware listed on this page is in no way a measurement of performance or tracking properties. Performance between Mice with same Sensors may vary due to various reasons. Regardless, there are those individuals that will find this information useful.










*Optical LED*




*Sensor**Brand**Model**MLT04*   MicrosoftIntellimouse Optical 1.1 MicrosoftIntellimouse Explorer 3.0 MicrosoftWheelmouse Optical 1.1 MicrosoftBlue






*Sensor**Brand**Model**A2020*   LogitechMX300 LogitechMX500*S2020*   LogitechG1 LogitechMX310 LogitechMX510*A3060*   A4TechX-710BF/K/H A4TechX-755K A4TechX-760H Corsair/Raptor GamingM3 DKT GEIL EpicGearAnura GEIL EpicGearMeduza HadesParis H3 HadesOrion H9 MionixNaos 3200 QPadOM-75 SteelseriesIkari Optical ZowieEC1/2*A3070*   RazerDiamondback*A3080*   A4TechX-718BK A4TechX-748K EmprexM873u EverglideG-1000 KtecKTM-9500+ LogitechMX518 NZXTAvatar RazerDiamondback RoccatKova ThermaltakeAzurues ThermaltakeAzurues Mini*A3080E*   LogitechMX518 2nd Gen.*S3088*   RazerDiamondback Plasma RazerKrait*S3668*   RazerBoomslang 2007 CE RazerDeathadder 3G RazerDiamondback 3G RazerSalmosa*S3888*   RazerAbyssus RazerAbyssus RazerDeathadder 3.5G*A3090*   CommatechM1 CoolermasterAlcor CoolermasterRecon CoolermasterSpawn Corsair/Raptor GamingKatar Corsair/Raptor GamingM30 Corsair/Raptor GamingM40 Cougar300m Cougar400m Cougar500m EVGATorQ X3 FuncMS-2 GEIL Epic GearCyclops GeniusMaurus GeniusMaurus X GigabyteRaptor HamauRage Reaper 3090 I-RocksIR-7572 I-RocksM05/IM3 I-RocksM06 I-RocksIRMO5-WP NEWMENGX1-Pro NEWMENGX1-R "2015 Glare" NEWMENGX2-Pro NEWMENGX3-Pro Mad CatzR.A.T. 3 NinoxAurora OzoneRadon Opto PerixxMX-1800B PuretrakValor RapooV300 RoccatKone Pure Optical RoccatSavu Sky DigitalNMouse 4k SteelseriesKana v2 TesoroGungnir H5 ThermaltakeSaphira ThermaltakeTheron Infrared ZalmanZM-M600R ZowieAM ZowieEC1/2 eVo ZowieFK*S3095*   LogitechG400 LogitechG400S




*Sensor**Brand**Model*"*Microsoft BlueTrack"*   MicrosoftSidewinder X8




*Sensor**Brand**Model**VT5366*   HadesAres Black HadesPhorcy H8 SteelseriesKinzu






*Sensor**Brand**Model**PAW/PAN3305*   A4techBloody V2 A4techBloody V3 A4techBloody V5 / V5M A4techBloody V7 / V7M A4techBloody V8 / V8M A4techX-718BK "Rev. 2" A4techX-748K "Rev.2" GigabyteM6900 NEWMENGX1-F NEWMENGX2 RoccatKova[+] RoccatPyra SharkoonFireglider Optical SharkoonM20 SpeedlinkPrime Z-DW SteelseriesKana SteelseriesKinzu V2 SteelseriesWoW Legendary ZowieMico*PAW3307*   Cougar230m






*Sensor**Brand**Model**A3050*   A4TechBloody Blazing A6 A4TechBloody Blazing A60 A4TechBloody Blazing A70 A4TechBloody Blazing A9 A4TechBloody Blazing A91 A4TechBloody N50 A4TechBloody R3a A4TechBloody R7a A4TechBloody R8a A4TechBloody Warrior RT5 A4TechBloody Warrior RT62 A4TechBloody Winner T5 A4TechBloody Winner T6 A4TechBloody Winner T7 AsusEspada GT200 CoolermasterDevastator II CoolermasterOctane CoolermasterXornet DeluxM626 FühlenG90 Cougar200m Cougar250m GamdiasApollo GamdiasErebos Extension Optical GamdiasHades Extension GEIL EpicGearBlade GEIL EpicGearZora HamauRage Reaper nxt I-RocksIR-7810R I-RocksM09 James Donkey112S NEWMENGX1-R OeronMS OzoneXenon RapooV20 RapooV200 RapooV21 RapooV210 RapooV22 RapooV25 RapooV26 RapooV29 ReachaceVX10 RedimpGM200-A RoccatKiro RoccatLua SpeedlinkLedos SteelseriesKinzu V3 SunsonnyS-M15 TaiduTSG100 TaiduTSG301 Team ScorpionG-Reaver R2 TesoroSharur Spectrum ThermaltakeTalon ThunderX3TM20 ThunderX3TM25 Turtle BeachGrip 300 V7GM120 ZalmanG12-3050*A3055*   LogitechG100 LogitechG300 LogitechG300S LogitechG90*S3059*   SteelseriesRival 100






*Sensor**Brand**Model**S3988*   AsusGladius CoolermasterSentinel III CorsairSabre Optical CorsairScimitar Cougar550m EVGATorQ X5 optical GEIL EpicGearMorpha GigabyteAorus M3 GigabyteXM300 HoriEdge 101 RazerDeathadder 4G RazerKrait 4G RoccatKone XTD Optical TesoroAscalon*S3989*   RazerDeathadder Chroma*PMW3310*   AsusSica AsusStrix Claw CorsairM45 Cougar450m Cougar530m CougarMinos X3 DreammachinesDM1 Pro DreammachinesDM2 Comfy DuckySecret E-3lueM668 FinalmouseErgo FinalmouseTournament Pro FnaticFlick GEIL EpicGearCyclops X GenesisKrypton 700 GeniusM6-400 GeniusM6-600 HansungGTune M40 HansungGTune M42 Kingston / HyperXPulsefire KM-GamingK-GM1 NEWMENGX1000 Pro Mad CatzR.A.T. Pro S Mad CatzR.A.T. Pro X MionixAvior 7000 MionixCastor MionixNaos 7000 MSIClutch GM40 NatecGenesis GX75 OzoneExon F60 Origen OzoneNeon M50 QPad8k Optical ReachaceS100 ReachaceS100 Firewire RoccatKone Pure Mil SpeedlinkDecus Respec SteelseriesRival SteelseriesRival 300 TaiduTSG550 TesoroSagitta Spectrum ThermaltakeVentus R Thunder X3TM30 Thunder X3TM50 XtrfyXG-M2 XtrfyXG-M3 ZowieEC1/2-A ZowieFK-1/1+/2 ZowieZA Series




*Sensor**Brand**Model**AM010*   LogitechG100S LogitechG302 LogitechG402 LogitechG602*PMW3320*   AkkoMouse Retro AzioEXO1 CoolermasterXornet II CorsairHarpoon FühlenCO300 FühlenCW100 OMG GenesisXenon 400 Mad CatzR.A.T. 1 OeronMS2 OzoneNeon 3K QPadDX-20 RapooV26S RapooV280 RapooV28S RapooV29S RapooV302 RazerDeathadder 3500 RazerTaipan 3500 RazerTurret RoccatKova 2015 SteelseriesRival Rescuer TrustGXT-170 Heron*PMW3329*   RazerAbyssus V2*PMW3325*   A4Tech BloodyP81 A4Tech BloodyP87 A4Tech BloodyP88 ABKOA600 DeluxM626 FühlenG90 Pro FühlenG91 Pro FühlenG93S GenesisKrypton 500 Mad CatzR.A.T. 2+ OeronMF2 OeronMS3 RoccatKone Pure SE TaiduTSG309 TalentechEmber ThunderX3RM5 ZalmanG18-3325






SensorBrandModel*PMW3366*   LogitechG303 LogitechG403 LogitechG502 LogitechG703 LogitechG900 LogitechG903 LogitechPro*PMW3360*   ABKOA660 ASUSROG Gladius II CoolermasterMasterMouse Pro L CoolermasterMM520 CoolermasterMM530 CorsairM65 Pro CougarMinos X5 CougarRevenger CougarRevenger S CreativeSoundBlasterX Siege M04 DARE-UEM925 Pro "12000DPI" DeluxM625 Digital AllianceG Premium DreammachinesDM1 Pro S FinalmouseScream One GEIL EpicGearMorpha X HavitHV-MS735 Mad CatzR.A.T. 6+ Mad CatzR.A.T. 8 Mad CatzR.A.T. AIR Mad CatzR.A.T. Pro X+ MSIClutch GM70 NewskillRenshi Guang NinoxAstrum NinoxVenator NixeusRevel Omen by HPGaming Mouse 600 OzoneExon F90 PerixxMX-3100 PlugablePM3360 PwnageAltier Red Square1337 SpeedlinkOmnivi SteelseriesRival 500 SteelseriesRival 700 TaiduTSG660 ThermaltakeNemesis Switch ThermaltakeVentus X Optical TrustGXT 188 Laban ZalmanG18-3360 ZowieEC1-b ZowieEC2-b*PMW3389*   Kingston/HyperXPulsefire Surge Mad CatzR.A.T. 8+ Mad CatzR.A.T. X3 RazerBasilisk RazerDeathadder Elite RazerLancehead TE RazerNaga Trinity*PMW3361*   RoccatKone EMP RoccatKone Pure 2017 RoccatLeadr*PMW3367*   CorsairGlaive CorsairScimitar Pro*TRUEMOVE 3 esburtz pro juan:juan*   SteelseriesRival 310 SteelseriesSensei 310*PMW3336*   DARE-UEM925 DARE-UEM925 Pro GamdiasZeus P1 ReachaceDM60 SharkoonSkiller SGM1*PMW3330*   CoolermasterMasterMouse S CougarSurpassion GenesisKrypton 800 Mad CatzR.A.T. 4+ Mad CatzR.A.T. Pro S+ Mad CatzR.A.T. S3 ModecomMC-GMX4 MSIClutch GM60 SkyDigitalNKEY G007 SteelseriesRaw Optical TalentechEmber Pro ThunderX3AM7 ThunderX3TM55*PMW3339*   RazerAbyssus Elite RazerJugan*TrueMove Juan*   SteelseriesRival 110 SteelseriesRival 300s




*Sensor**Brand**Model**"Mercury"*   LogitechG102 LogitechG203*"HERO"*   LogitechG603







Optical Laser (VCSEL)




*Sensor**Brand**Model**A6010*   A4TechXL-740K A4TechXL-747H A4TechXL-750BK MicrosoftSidewinder MicrosoftSidewinder x3 MicrosoftSidewinder x5 RaidmaxHoorai SharkoonFireglider*S6006*   LogitechG3 LogitechG5 LogitechG7*S6018*   MicrosoftHabu RazerCopperhead*A6090*   Cyber SnipaStinger GigabyteM8000 LogitechG9 RoccatKone SteelseriesWoW*A6098*   HadesEris H2






*Sensor**Brand**Model**A9500*   Ace of SwedenEDGE 3200 AnyzenG9 AorusThunder M7 AsusGX850 Corsair/Raptor GamingM4 CorsairM60 CorsairM95 Cyber SnipaSilencer EVGATORQ X3 "Best Buy" FuncMS-3 GEIL EpicGearMeduza GeniusDeathtaker GigabyteM6980X GigabyteM8000X Hewlett-PackardX9000 OMEN LeetgionHeelion LeetgionEl'Druin MionixNaos 5000 Nacon / Big BenGM-400L OklickHunter OzoneNeon OzoneSmog PerixxMX-2000ll PowerlogicAlien G9 PrestigioPMSG1 QPad5K RevoltecFightmouse Elite RoccatKone [+] SharkoonDarkglider SharkoonDrakonia SpeedlinkDecus SpeedlinkKudos SpeedlinkKudos RS SteelseriesSensei SteelseriesSensei Fnatic SteelseriesSensei RAW, Diablo 3, Blackops II,
Guild Wars 2, Heroes of the Storm SteelseriesWoW Cataclysm SteelseriesXai Team ScorpionZealot TesoroShrike H2L ThermaltakeBlack "DTA" ThermaltakeBlack Element ThermaltakeVentus ThermaltakeVentus X ThermaltakeVentus Z ZalmanZM-GM1*S9500*   DellAlienware TactX LogitechG500 LogitechG700 LogitechG9X*A9800*   A4TechBloody Terminator TL5 A4TechBloody Terminator TL6 A4TechBloody Terminator TL7 A4TechBloody Terminator TL8 A4TechBloody Terminator TL9 A-jazzAJ100 AsusGX860 AsusGX950 AsusGX1000 AsusSpatha CoolermasterHavoc CoolermasterMizar CoolermasterSentinel Advance II CoolermasterReaper CorsairM65 CorsairM95 CorsairSabre Laser Cougar600m Cougar700m Dare-UTotal excellent soldier armor mouse EVGATorQ X5 EVGATorQ X10 EtekcityScroll Alpha GamdiasErebos Laser GamdiasHades GamdiasZeus GEIL EpicGearAnura GeniusGila GigabyteKrypton G.SkillRipjaws MX780 James Donkey007 LioncastLM20 LioncastLM30 Mad CatzR.A.T. 6 MionixAvior 8200 MionixNaos 8200 OzoneArgon PatriotV560 PerixxMX-3000 QPad5K L.E. QPad8K Laser RapooV310 RapooV900 RapooV910 RoccatKone Pure RoccatKone XTD RoccatTyon RosewillRGM-1100 SenteyLumenata Pro SharkoonDrakonia Black SharkoonM51 SharkoonM52 SkillkorpM20 SteelseriesSensei MLG TaiduTSG601 TesoroGandiva H1L TesoroH2LV2 TesoroThyrsus ThermaltakeLevel 10M ThermaltakeVolos Thunder X3TM40 Thunder X3TM60 Turtle BeachGrip 500 ZalmanZM-GM3 ZalmanZM-GM4 "Knossos"*S9808*   LogitechG500S LogitechG600 LogitechG700s*S9818*   RazerOuroboros RazerTaipan*S9819*   RazerTaipan














*"Optical checkerboard"*


*Saitek* R.A.T. 3CYONS2001 *Mionix* Saiph 3200CYONS1001U*Nova* Slider X600CYONS1001U*Steelseries* Ikari LaserCYONS1001U






*"Doppler Shift"*


*CM Storm* InfernoPLN2031Sentinel/Sentinel AdvancePLN2032*Ozone* Radon 3KPLN2030Radon 5KPLN2032*Gigabyte* M8600/M8600 v2PLN2032Aivia UraniumPLN2032*Razer* ImperatorPLN2032Imperator 4GPLN2033LachesisPLN2031Lachesis 3.5GPLN2032MambaPLN2032Mamba 4GPLN2033Naga/Hex/Epic/Molten/2012PLN2032Naga 2013/2014PLN2034 OrochiPLN2031Orochi 2013PLN2033SpectrePLN2032 TronPLN2032 *Saitek/Mad Catz* R.A.T. 3PLN2030R.A.T. 5PLN2031R.A.T. 5 RefreshPLN2032R.A.T. 7PLN2032R.A.T. 7 RefreshPLN2033R.A.T. 9PLN2032R.A.T. 9 RefreshPLN2033R.A.T. T.E.PLN2034 R.A.T.M.PLN2033*Tt esports* Black "DTG"PLN2031



*"Gaming Mice" with Office Sensors (LED and VCSEL)*






*Asus*CerberusA5050*CM Storm*DevastatorPAW3309*Cougar*DeathfireA5050Minos X1A5050*Etekcity*Scroll X1 (M555)A5050*Gamdias*DemeterA5050Demeter LaserA5050Ourea opticalPAW3606DL*Gigabyte*GM-M6800PAW3101*James Donkey*112PAN3509*Mad Catz*R.A.T. 1 Rev.2PAW3204*Nacon / Big Ben*GM-105SPCP 168AGM-300A5050*Ovann*6D 2400dpiSPCP 168A*Perixx*MX-800A5050*Redragon*M601 CENTROPHORUSA5050*Saitek*Cyborg V3A7550*Sharkoon*Shark ForcePAN3509*Tesoro*SharurA5050*Zalman*ZM-M300A5050




























































Credits:

-Skylit, Bullveyr, DeMS, and few people that will go unnamed: You know who you are. Thank you.

-Anyone who has made a contribution to this thread: Sorry If I didn't name you =x

Sources:

Richard L. Owens: Optical mouse technology. Served as a reference for older tech.


----------



## 508859

most if not all mice from 2019-2020 are missing


----------



## adacsaba

Have any of you good people know anything about the "Bloody Customized ID BC3332-S IC" mouse sensor ? The mouse models' release time it's sort of overlapping with 3325, 3327 or 3333, mid-range or lower. Pixart doesn't list though no 3332 on their site. I will try to get a P91s or something if i can.


----------



## adacsaba

If anyone wondered what A4tech's mysterious BC3332-S or BC3332-A sensor is... I've just got my W60-Max. Vendor claimed specs:

PERFORMANCE
Tracking
Sensor: MAX BC3332-A 10K Sensor
Resolution: 100~10,000 CPI 
Frame Speed: 8000 fps
Acceleration: 35 g
Tracking Speed: 250 ips
Response
Report Rate: 125~2000 Hz
Key Response: 1 ms
Durability
Micro-Switch: Over 50 Million Clicks ( Left / Right Button )
Wheel: Over 500,000 Scrolls
Metal X'Glide Armor Boot: Over 300 Kms


The package looks identical to the PMW 3325/3327/3335 sensor's . The tracking speed matches the 3360 (250 IPS), acceleration matches none, but higher than 3325's. Could be just a plain 3325 with custom SROM. I don't think the framerate is real, feels like variable frame rate. Paint test shows angle snapping at low speeds and negative acceleration. Mousetester shows extreme jitter at low speeds.

It seems the polling rate won't go higher than 1000 Hz, the claimed 2000 Hz rate doesn't work. 

Verdict: the overall sensor implementation is $h1t. The hyped custom sensor is just a piece of trash 3325 with some custom SROM it seems, not a tournament class mouse by a long shot. Body's heavy, bulky, well built otherwise, but uncomfortable. I would have gone for the W90 Max instead, but it is not available in this country. Nor is the P91S. 

I confess myself disappointed, hoped for better.


----------



## the1freeMan

adacsaba said:


> If anyone wondered what A4tech's mysterious BC3332-S or BC3332-A sensor is... I've just got my W60-Max. Vendor claimed specs:
> 
> PERFORMANCE
> Tracking
> Sensor: MAX BC3332-A 10K Sensor
> Resolution: 100~10,000 CPI
> Frame Speed: 8000 fps
> Acceleration: 35 g
> Tracking Speed: 250 ips
> Response
> Report Rate: 125~2000 Hz
> Key Response: 1 ms
> Durability
> Micro-Switch: Over 50 Million Clicks ( Left / Right Button )
> Wheel: Over 500,000 Scrolls
> Metal X'Glide Armor Boot: Over 300 Kms
> 
> 
> The package looks identical to the PMW 3325/3327/3335 sensor's . The tracking speed matches the 3360 (250 IPS), acceleration matches none, but higher than 3325's. Could be just a plain 3325 with custom SROM. I don't think the framerate is real, feels like variable frame rate. Paint test shows angle snapping at low speeds and negative acceleration. Mousetester shows extreme jitter at low speeds.
> 
> ...


A) Negative accel in paint? Made my day 
B) If you wanna show angle snapping use the 1 pixel pencil.. idk how that's not obvious.
C) Regardless of B, that is not angle snapping. All sensors rectify angles to a certain extent. (ok maybe lines 4 and 5 from the top look that way, but the first 3 are impossible with angle snapping)
D) Variable frame rate allows for more precise low speed tracking algorithms.
E) Why are you wasting money on Bloody trash?

(hint: the questions are rhetorical)


----------



## adacsaba

the1freeMan said:


> A) Negative accel in paint? Made my day
> B) If you wanna show angle snapping use the 1 pixel pencil.. idk how that's not obvious.
> C) Regardless of B, that is not angle snapping. All sensors rectify angles to a certain extent. (ok maybe lines 4 and 5 from the top look that way, but the first 3 are impossible with angle snapping)
> D) Variable frame rate allows for more precise low speed tracking algorithms.
> E) Why are you wasting money on Bloody trash?
> 
> (hint: the questions are rhetorical)


A.) the last five lines. Why , how do you detect acceleration ? Assuming you've built a turntable of variable speed, measure the counts say 10 times at same speed, average, then do the same for higher speeds, finally plot the graphs of speed vs counts , draw the envelope, see if it's linear ...
B.) makes no difference, the snapped pixels are in straight line. but of course everybody is free to use even the subpixel wide pencil, if there is such, for if that makes them happier
C.) or the opposite. isn't variable frame rate for power saving actually, the higher the framerate the more power the sensor draws, a treat mostly for wireless mice to conserve battery ? a compromise, since at low motion multiple samples will have the exact same image data, if the frame rate is constant and high. qsxcv here reverse engineered the Mercury sensor , and found it has constant frame rate synced to USB packets, partly that's what gives the Mercury/Hero it's precision . As for the 3360 and alike, probably the frame rate in it's lowest state isn't actually that low
D.) why not ? i was curious about their custom sensor. just like i was on Logitech's Hero, Mercury, Steelseries' TrueMove, Razer's S3x88, etc etc

Thank you.


----------



## Elrick

adacsaba said:


> If anyone wondered what A4tech's mysterious BC3332-S or BC3332-A sensor is... I've just got my W60-Max. Vendor claimed specs:
> 
> 
> View attachment 2482064
> View attachment 2482071


Saw the BLUE huanos and placed my order  .

Only for those switches alone, which makes this mouse superior to most others being sold today.

Thanks for the close up shots.


----------



## the1freeMan

adacsaba said:


> A.) the last five lines. Why , how do you detect acceleration ? Assuming you've built a turntable of variable speed, measure the counts say 10 times at same speed, average, then do the same for higher speeds, finally plot the graphs of speed vs counts , draw the envelope, see if it's linear ...
> B.) makes no difference, the snapped pixels are in straight line. but of course everybody is free to use even the subpixel wide pencil, if there is such, for if that makes them happier
> C.) or the opposite. isn't variable frame rate for power saving actually, the higher the framerate the more power the sensor draws, a treat mostly for wireless mice to conserve battery ? a compromise, since at low motion multiple samples will have the exact same image data, if the frame rate is constant and high. qsxcv here reverse engineered the Mercury sensor , and found it has constant frame rate synced to USB packets, partly that's what gives the Mercury/Hero it's precision . As for the 3360 and alike, probably the frame rate in it's lowest state isn't actually that low
> D.) why not ? i was curious about their custom sensor. just like i was on Logitech's Hero, Mercury, Steelseries' TrueMove, Razer's S3x88, etc etc
> 
> Thank you.


A) Or you can just use mouse tester and show the reader clearly what's going on at what speed.
All that without them needing to know about your previously unspecified setup, having the program do the same calculations instantly and yet again outputting a graph detailing the result in a *clear readable fashion*, showing at what speed how much deceleration takes place.

You could have at least written the movement speed besides the lines, but still nowhere near as useful as a graph.
You're basically putting in 10 times the work to get 1/10 of the result.

B) Sub pixel? No it's 1 pixel.. *1 is not less than 1*...
Not only you're using a 3 pixel line to show 1 pixel (count) progression on a cartesian plane but you're even using the damn paintbrush.. A thing that blurs out transitions between x and y axes.
Also lines 4 and 5 are reproducible without snapping, lines 1 to 3 are not doable with snapping. Again, all sensors will rectify straight-ish lines, that's not angle snapping, probably just low frame rate in this case.

Regarding the mercury: you got it backwards. What came out of q's analysis is that it operates at a FULLY DYNAMIC frame rate in order to send FIXED AMOUNT OF MOTION DATA per frame.
That is made for power saving, not precision. If anything it makes the mouse more "stiff" in changing between axes, making it behave in a similar way to angle snapping, but at low speed.

https://www.overclock.net/threads/so-how-good-is-the-hero-16k-sensor.1707114/page-5#post-27730150

Re-read this too: g102 mercury sensor info
(btw reverse engineering is more than hooking up an oscilloscope and a bus pirate, that would require testing and understanding what all or most of the registers do, like he did on the 3366) and yeah also frame rate is not synced (well duh, it's fully dynamic), that's the 3366 syncing spi with usb.. anyway it's there in the review. You basically got it ALL WRONG.

also regarding it's "precision": random things (lul)

I'd like to add that just using the sensor should make it obvious how much it strays form hand movement to anybody who has any degree of fine motor skills.

C) patent detailing how mlt04 works
TL; DR Lower frame rates let the dsp uses full frame correlation which is more accurate, while at high speeds partial frame correlation with high frame rate is used in order to have more PCS but less precision

D) I understand curiosity, what strikes me is how one could be disappointed and surprised that their products suck.
It should be pretty obvious that they're a low tier company with poor designs who's main goal is everything but performance.
They have no place being put on the same level as the other companies mentioned, even with all their mishaps.

Btw: "Metal X'Glide Armor Boot" rofl. Spending money on something is basically telling their marketing department: +1, good job.
Where one spends his/her money is a form of expression. A company doesn't care about reviews, just about the bottom line.
Of course 1 sell is nothing on it's own, but I wouldn't give those people a penny.

You're welcome


----------



## Melan

Afaik A4Tech's entire point is their lame crutch macro software package for those sweet no recoil macros. And price. They are dirt cheap. Although on amazon I see some of them going for ~30 euro which is, pretty much, a G203 or Burst Core pricing, which would be a much better choice anyway.


----------



## Ufasas

You bring good memories for me, when I liked a4tech x7-710 shape a lot, until some fail happened, and they sent me some x7-750bf as warranty was still intact cause they didn't have 710 anymore in market, i don't think it was the same sensor, even my friend wanted me to sell him 750bf, he loved that shape over sensor even more, cause he was clueless about sensors like me at the time, now i see there are tons of variations, like 718, 755, close but not identical bloody p90/p93, all of them with rubber sides, is there any clone of this mouse without a single rubber and good sensor (pmw3310 / 3360 something) ??


----------



## adacsaba

Elrick said:


> Saw the BLUE huanos and placed my order  .
> 
> Only for those switches alone, which makes this mouse superior to most others being sold today.
> 
> Thanks for the close up shots.


Aren't Huano switches. Look like so, but these are actually A4tech's LK "Lightning" in house developed infrared light based switches. Do u remember back in the good o'days, the trackball mice ? the friction thing had optical tachometers or *** you call those. Same principle, is actuated by the break of light path.


----------



## adacsaba

Melan said:


> Afaik A4Tech's entire point is their lame crutch macro software package for those sweet no recoil macros. And price. They are dirt cheap. Although on amazon I see some of them going for ~30 euro which is, pretty much, a G203 or Burst Core pricing, which would be a much better choice anyway.


My first optical mouse was an A4tech SWOP23 , a beautiful, extremely well designed mouse with an office grade sensor ( the A2020). The same sensor was used in some of Logitech's MX $h1t "gaming" mice back then, which were 3 times more expensive, and twice as heavy... I'm very fond of this company . Besides, their engineering efforts result in some unusual devices. They brought the first optical keyboards onto the market, 3 years before Razer did (using A4tech switches actually). And exotic stuff like the Wooting Hall sensor or newer optical sensor gradient keyboards came much later and scarce to find. Of course i will get one as soon as i can... And regardless what the one free man thinks it's just one device, it's actually a total of 12 mice, 3 keyboards, 2 headsets i had from them. The P30 Pro mouse is great, light, comfortable and precise. The B975 keyboard is one of the finest, replaces now my Orion G910 Spectrum . Their G502 headset is as good as any with the C-Media CM6400 chip (it has hardware DSP actually).


----------



## adacsaba

Ufasas said:


> You bring good memories for me, when I liked a4tech x7-710 shape a lot, until some fail happened, and they sent me some x7-750bf as warranty was still intact cause they didn't have 710 anymore in market, i don't think it was the same sensor, even my friend wanted me to sell him 750bf, he loved that shape over sensor even more, cause he was clueless about sensors like me at the time, now i see there are tons of variations, like 718, 755, close but not identical bloody p90/p93, all of them with rubber sides, is there any clone of this mouse without a single rubber and good sensor (pmw3310 / 3360 something) ??


They've dropped the shape of their Oscar mice. The best sensor those had was the A3080 in the 718BK rev 1 .Rev 2 comes with the 3305. Can only find these on the second hand market, if at all. I've managed to acquire both a 710F ( with the A3060) and 718BK both revisions.


----------



## Ufasas

adacsaba said:


> They've dropped the shape of their Oscar mice. The best sensor those had was the A3080 in the 718BK rev 1 .Rev 2 comes with the 3305. Can only find these on the second hand market, if at all. I've managed to acquire both a 710F ( with the A3060) and 718BK both revisions.


Hm, i still see some 710s and 718s around ebay/amazon, hmm, how would you compare the shape to Sensei/Sensei RAW/Sensei Ten, i had raw, but it got too ugly and deterioriated, i found Sensei 10 on ebay for cheaper than 710/718 haha


----------



## adacsaba

Ufasas said:


> Hm, i still see some 710s and 718s around ebay/amazon, hmm, how would you compare the shape to Sensei/Sensei RAW/Sensei Ten, i had raw, but it got too ugly and deterioriated, i found Sensei 10 on ebay for cheaper than 710/718 haha


Not sure, i only have the Rival 110, can compare to that. The old 718BF is much thicker and the bump is more towards the back. The 710F and siblings are somewhat flatter. The Rival is even more flat. Out of these 3, the 718BF fits my palm perfectly when palm grip, while still can claw grip it. The Rival i can't palm grip, my hand is wide. However, the Steelseries mice, both Sensei and Rival, have superior sensors. Unfortunately people's hands are just as varied as their faces, you have to feel it for yourself. But if the sensor precision is of more importance to you than the perfect grip, go with the Sensei. The Sensei/RAW has 3330 i think , the Sensei 10 has their TrueMove (custom 3320 or 3330) , same as the Rival 110 has. The old A4tech Oscar has either 3305 ( angle snapping, acceleration) or 3060/3080 (angle snapping) , these will only do at low DPI. The 3305 also has a low tracking speed of 1.3-1.6 m/s , the worst of the three sensors. Back then , when i was playing planetside 2, used a pair of Bloody v8(3305) and ZL5(A9800). The V8 for regular infantry (also did a little cheat with the Headshot macros  ) and the ZL5 for long range sniper, since i couldn't snipe with the 3305. Good o'days.


----------



## Ufasas

adacsaba said:


> Not sure, i only have the Rival 110, can compare to that. The old 718BF is much thicker and the bump is more towards the back. The 710F and siblings are somewhat flatter. The Rival is even more flat. Out of these 3, the 718BF fits my palm perfectly when palm grip, while still can claw grip it. The Rival i can't palm grip, my hand is wide. However, the Steelseries mice, both Sensei and Rival, have superior sensors. Unfortunately people's hands are just as varied as their faces, you have to feel it for yourself. But if the sensor precision is of more importance to you than the perfect grip, go with the Sensei. The Sensei/RAW has 3330 i think , the Sensei 10 has their TrueMove (custom 3320 or 3330) , same as the Rival 110 has. The old A4tech Oscar has either 3305 ( angle snapping, acceleration) or 3060/3080 (angle snapping) , these will only do at low DPI. The 3305 also has a low tracking speed of 1.3-1.6 m/s , the worst of the three sensors. Back then , when i was playing planetside 2, used a pair of Bloody v8(3305) and ZL5(A9800). The V8 for regular infantry (also did a little cheat with the Headshot macros  ) and the ZL5 for long range sniper, since i couldn't snipe with the 3305. Good o'days.


Good to read about 718, I will not forget that mouse, and probably will wait for it dirty cheap only, not willing to pay 30$+ when there are so many nicer options. Well owning R110 too, seems like i can get used to that shape, just need short time, but i like the taller bump of kana v2 in the middle more, though higher bump towards back (like EG Morpha) is also very comfortable, flatter stuff would be less favourable. Seems Sensei 10 keeps that taller bump, and has not a 3320/3330, but Truemove Pro, it's evolution of Truemove3, that's their version of 3360/3389 like sensors, guess I'll go for less downsides, more durability and performance, I am getting Sensei 10 for 3x cheaper from ebay, I heard lift of distance also decent - 2 DVDs or so, that's perfect, sorted!


----------



## Ufasas

Did research on msi mice, could be the closer brothers to a4tech x710/718 shape*, *they got two mice with paw3327 and pmw3310 sensors (this one <- would be amazing in a4tech 718 shape)



































straight to the point reiew:


----------



## the1freeMan

adacsaba said:


> And regardless what the one free man thinks it's just one device, it's actually a total of 12 mice, 3 keyboards, 2 headsets i had from them. The P30 Pro mouse is great, light, comfortable and precise. The B975 keyboard is one of the finest, replaces now my Orion G910 Spectrum . Their G502 headset is as good as any with the C-Media CM6400 chip (it has hardware DSP actually).


I was under the impression you where a Bloody™ fanboy, you already have 2 "reviews" in one page here, but unlike you I don't write stuff I'm not sure about.
Since you didn't understand the meaning of the sentence (no wonder ) I'll rephrase: no matter how much stuff one person buys, he's just one person and therefore irrelevant for the company sales-wise.
12 mice from Bloody/a4tech? I don't now if it's more sad or comical.. and you're actually are surprised if they're bad? Lol well considering you understand the exact opposite of everything you read that actually makes sense.
Btw headsets lol? Instead of throwing away your money maybe use it on an actual pair of headphones and a mic?
But who am I kidding, if you got to this point it's pretty unrealistic to think you might ever learn something.



adacsaba said:


> Back then , when i was playing planetside 2, used a pair of Bloody v8(3305) and ZL5(A9800). The V8 for regular infantry (also did a little cheat with the Headshot macros  ) and the ZL5 for long range sniper, since i couldn't snipe with the 3305. Good o'days.


Rofl blatantly admits to CHEATING as if he doesn't even realize what he's doing. @Melan nailed it, guess the macros are the only selling point of this stuff. And here's a guy that bough 12 mice from them  and goes around making "mouse reviews" with near 0 understanding of the tech. No wonder someone who plays with cheat macros thinks the mercury/hero are super accurate, I was spot on with the lack of fine motor skills. (it was supposed to be an exageration/joke.. oh well )
It's mind boggling that people like you have so little self awareness they actually come and write "mouse reviews" or talk smack to people correcting them.


----------



## Ufasas

the1freeMan said:


> I was under the impression you where a Bloody™ fanboy, you already have 2 "reviews" in one page here, but unlike you I don't write stuff I'm not sure about.
> Since you didn't understand the meaning of the sentence (no wonder ) I'll rephrase: no matter how much stuff one person buys, he's just one person and therefore irrelevant for the company sales-wise.
> 12 mice from Bloody/a4tech? I don't now if it's more sad or comical..


I got 4 from logi because of sensor, 4 from steels because of shape, and 3-4 from razer, cause of shape, lol, it is comical when you try to explain to friends, i like that connection, for funzies, but i also i use them all, not just collecting.

It's hard to track all of the specs and sensors nowadays, they spread them so many, i am too lazy to open the datasheet myself, i'm not encyclopedia either, but had my time researching, long and boring activity...

Got an offer of msi gm40 for 22.99, mice with 3310 sensor usually have the worst shapes, i can't even, 3360/3389 have hogged all the best shapes... this is one of the better ones though... will counter offer, will see if i can get it for a bit less, shame i can't compare its shape with x-710 right now..


----------



## Marek998

AloneInTheDuck said:


> Quote:
> 
> 3360/3361/3366/3389/true move01 (ss)


nope. Maybe unpopular opinion, but i think all nowadays pixart sensor is a crap. Best mouses i ever had is kinzu v1 (*VT5366*) deathadder 3g/3.5g (*S3668, S3888 *) Microsoft 1.1 intelli (*MLT04*) the first deathadder 1800 dpi (not mention in list, so i dont know which sensor was in it) if there any mouse in market close to these with not **** pixart sensor 33xx tell me asap.


----------



## adacsaba

thread's live once more, that's a good thing

of course everybody is entitled to an opinion, @the1freeMan, no offense, none taken



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4211353778897187



One of the definitions of "cheating" by Oxford Languages: "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage".

These can be purchased through official channels, it's not prohibited or black market hardware, nor does it apply as hack or exploit (in opposite to aimbot software for example ). It's fun of it's own to create the recoil compensation algorithms then use.


----------



## adacsaba

@Marek998 , Logitech's AM010 ? The G402 "Hyperion Fury" (stupid name) ain't that bad at all. Actually, feels quite "natural" to boot.

But then why do you hate Pixart so much ?


----------



## Elrick

adacsaba said:


> But then why do you hate Pixart so much ?


Have loads of people whom despise Pixart in general. All of their sensors were utter garbage for any serious gamer. That is hard to ignore today, that earlier experience is still with those that remember clearly how awful that company was in providing some of the world's worst sensor tech.

It shall be their ongoing legacy that is hard to forget during 2021 and beyond......

The most decent sensor ever produced was the MLT04, without doubt. Nothing comes even close to it in serious Gaming today.


----------



## Klopfer

btw DA 3G/3.5G ( S3668/S3888 ) are from Avago ... but maybe produced from pixart also at that time ... both shared many designs, license, patents ... and 3080/3090 were also produced from pixart ...
btw he react to a post from Aug 27, 2017 ... with his 1st post here ...
maybe he likes Phillips Twin Eye more ? 
btw at the time of the MLT04 I prefered my ballmouse


----------



## the1freeMan

Ufasas said:


> I got 4 from logi because of sensor, 4 from steels because of shape, and 3-4 from razer, cause of shape, lol, it is comical when you try to explain to friends, i like that connection, for funzies, but i also i use them all, not just collecting.


Many people here have 10 , 20 or 30 plus mouses, while it is funny to explain to non mouse enthusiasts, what I meant is that's it's ridiculous to invest that much money supporting a company like Bloody that is all about gimmicky marketing / aesthetics and macro software, with performance being last on their list.



adacsaba said:


> thread's live once more, that's a good thing
> 
> One of the definitions of "cheating" by Oxford Languages: "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage".
> 
> These can be purchased through official channels, it's not prohibited or black market hardware, nor does it apply as hack or exploit (in opposite to aimbot software for example ). It's fun of it's own to create the recoil compensation algorithms then use.


"Recoil macros are not cheating"  keep telling yourself that. That's such a stereotypical cheater mentality.
Let's spell it out for you: software that moves the mouse for you in order to compensate for stuff that throws off your aim, like recoil, in order to get an advantage over other players is indeed unfair, therefore cheating. I'm sure you know that but you just have to make excuses.

In the meanwhile mouse enthusiasts research to understand technology in order to have the most accurate equipment for reproducing hand movement and you're like: "It's fun to write elementary school level code to make the mouse move on it's own.
Not for testing purposes, no no no but to get an advantage over other players and it's totally legit ey, absolutely not cheating! I bought it from a Chinese company that makes mouses with metal armor boots"

Also, if there's any thread that doesn't need activity it's this one, as it's just supposed to be a list..

EDIT: I just realized the bloody software requires no coding at all to do recoil scripts..  so fun indeed.. don't even have to learn or figure out anything! "Algorithms" btw.. this guy..

@Ufasas See, this is what I mean when I say "I don't know if it's more sad or comical"



Elrick said:


> Have loads of people whom despise Pixart in general. All of their sensors were utter garbage for any serious gamer. That is hard to ignore today, that earlier experience is still with those that remember clearly how awful that company was in providing some of the world's worst sensor tech.
> 
> It shall be their ongoing legacy that is hard to forget during 2021 and beyond......
> 
> The most decent sensor ever produced was the MLT04, without doubt. Nothing comes even close to it in serious Gaming today.


roach 2.0
"omg the paw3305 ENTRY LEVEL sensor from 10 years ago was bad so pixart is crap. The 400cpi sensor with 1 pixel deadzone and 1.5m/s pcs is the absolute best ever."
(I love the capital G in gaming btw..)



Marek998 said:


> nope. Maybe unpopular opinion, but i think all nowadays pixart sensor is a crap. Best mouses i ever had is kinzu v1 (*VT5366*) deathadder 3g/3.5g (*S3668, S3888 *) Microsoft 1.1 intelli (*MLT04*) the first deathadder 1800 dpi (not mention in list, so i dont know which sensor was in it) if there any mouse in market close to these with not **** pixart sensor 33xx tell me asap.


The DA 1800cpi *is the 3g*. It's sensor was made by Avago. Pixart bought Avago's rights to manufacture the sensors and all the stuff they're producing today is based on the same exact tech.
The kinzu sensor was a joke, ridiculous angle snapping and lots of random acceleration with large variation between different mice.
Again the 336x is very close to the 3080/90 variants you mention and is their natural evolution, so it's actually the close thing you're asking for.
(lol)


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## Melan

the1freeMan said:


> Not for testing purposes, no no no but to get an advantage over other players and it's totally legit ey, absolutely not cheating! I bought it from a Chinese company that makes mouses with metal armor boots"


Here's the kicker tho. These macros are Pay-2-Use. When you buy the mouse, you only get a sampler 
A4 Tech actually has a store button on the macro page lmao.

Page 7 and 8 of the review have this explained.


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## Ufasas

Got the gm40 by MSI, boy it's close to a4 tech, it's so close, i am freaking out, and it's not making me claw grip that shape as much as sensei ten does, palmgripping as hell, sides are deeper, something like x710 has, but sensor, coating (though gathers lots of fingerprints), absence of rubber much better  nostalgia.


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## Exelzzx

Ufasas said:


> Got the gm40 by MSI, boy it's close to a4 tech, it's so close, i am freaking out, and it's not making me claw grip that shape as much as sensei ten does, palmgripping as hell, sides are deeper, something like x710 has, but sensor, coating (though gathers lots of fingerprints), absence of rubber much better  nostalgia.
> 
> View attachment 2485608
> View attachment 2485605
> View attachment 2485606


hey so I'm under the impression the steel series xai is the only mouse I'm gonna use i saw 1 online for 100 medal of honor edition can any of you tell me if ur willing to give 1 up ill do overnight dead serious i need a steelseries xai or i wont game. peroioid.


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## Exelzzx

Exelzzx said:


> hey so I'm under the impression the steel series xai is the only mouse I'm gonna use i saw 1 online for 100 medal of honor edition can any of you tell me if ur willing to give 1 up ill do overnight dead serious i need a steelseries xai or i wont game. peroioid.





https://www.tamayatech.com/parts.php?g=67704SS&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1PSDBhDbARIsAPeTqrddeXPPmpQINSYPBU3B3P-y4T1DlUvM2TrrHxDWZxspyFDYbsO_YtsaAtiNEALw_wcB


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## Ufasas

Exelzzx said:


> hey so I'm under the impression the steel series xai is the only mouse I'm gonna use i saw 1 online for 100 medal of honor edition can any of you tell me if ur willing to give 1 up ill do overnight dead serious i need a steelseries xai or i wont game. peroioid.


duuno mate i retired all laser mice, i don't like, they weren't consistent for me on any pad, maybe good for others, like logitech g9x / g9, i knew people still played good with g9s, last laser mouse saw Sensei Raw Laser, it could have been better, now Sensei Ten is just like I wanted Sensei Raw to be. Wouldn't touch any xai/sensei with laser, only optical


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## Exelzzx

iii cant find a single xai online


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## Lite

Gaming
A4Tech XL-750MK ==> A6010

General
A4Tech N-70FX ==> PAW3512DK-TJYA
A4Tech SWOP-35 ==> PAW3401DK
Logitech B100, M90 ==> PAW3526DB-FJY2


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## Marko234567

i want to report 2 opened mice.

1. *a4Tech xl-740k*
xl-740k--a9500-b
xl-740k-a9500-m 2012.02.24. ver:03

*sensor: a9500
mcu: sn8f2253bsg* ?


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## Marko234567

2. *a4tech xl-750bf*
never opened before. sticker that covers the screw is punctured by me today.
parts of this mouse have all different similar a4tech models branding, they must have been shared between several models.

*sensor: a6010
mcu: elan em78m680dcmj*


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