# Accessing the Internet without and ISP



## InfamousLegend

The answer to my question might be more straight forward than I hope, but it's something that has always bothered me. An ISP offers access to the World Wide Web, and through them multiple access speeds and data limits are available.

But what about getting internet without going through an ISP, is it possible? Could you bypass an ISP all together, to even include piggybacking off their servers as much as possible, or would you be required to piggyback? I've taken TCP/IP before and while it makes sense that you should be able to just plug right into the internet like it's just a giant p2p network it usually isn't that simple, and I have a feeling having to assign IP's may throw a wrench in this whole thing.

This is a crude explanation, but it would seem from the outside looking in all you would need is your own server rack with switches, routers, and whatever have you and you're good to go. Just splice open a large data cable used for a WAN between the east and west coast and assign yourself a fake IP. It's never that simple, but you guys get the idea.

I can already hear a ISP employee laughing his ass off right now, but I got to ask.

If you could bypass an ISP though what would it take?

Edit: could a mod change "and" to "an" in the title, thank you.


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## Omicron

Well, I believe that most ISPs purchase bandwidth from larger "Internet Backbone" ISPs which are considered "Tier 1" providers. Since it is all P2P and all, many different backbone companies contribute to building and maintaining the Fiber Lines which carry the internet's main traffic.

I suppose it might be possible to splice into the network, but no matter what, you are tapping into some company's line. You could even technically become Tier 1 level and create your own network on the backbone level, but then you need to connect to other companies to actually communicate on the internet.

As far as IP assignment goes, you might be able to get away with assigning your own IP until it collides with someone else. But, the Tier 1 companies listed above probably have their own management as well that might interfere.


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## l0max

you need a server to give you an address on the internet. this is what an isp does; using your subscriber information, they give you an address that servers can reach and vice versa. if your computer was a server, it would still need a publicly available address to be reached; if your computer is a client it needs a return address so the server knows where to send packets; this is impossible without an isp giving you an address.

you could dial directly into a server, but there's no google or any other services, just the server you are connected to. if that server is connected to the internet, you can tunnel its' connection and surf that way.

not using an isp is literally not using the internet.


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## InfamousLegend

Still above my comprehension level I guess, as I always thought of the internet as roads. A town or city might be a server assigning IP's to it's localresidents with large cities being the main distribution center for data. In this scenario a semi truck would be the ISP and Instead of renting a semi truck (purchasing internet services), I could just buy my own semi truck, cut out the middle man and get free internet. Somehow somewhere there has to be a way to connect directly to the Internet without piggybacking off someone elses server to assign yourself an IP address. Communication with ISP's would be possible, you just wouldn't need them for assigning yourself traffic.

It would be akin to setting up my own ISP without actually having to own an ISP.

Edit: I0 explained it a little better, and it would seem I'm SOL on ever getting free internet.


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## Omicron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *l0max*
> 
> you need a server to give you an address on the internet. this is what an isp does; using your subscriber information, they give you an address that servers can reach and vice versa. if your computer was a server, it would still need a publicly available address to be reached; if your computer is a client it needs a return address so the server knows where to send packets; this is impossible without an isp giving you an address.
> 
> you could dial directly into a server, but there's no google or any other services, just the server you are connected to. if that server is connected to the internet, you can tunnel its' connection and surf that way.
> 
> not using an isp is literally not using the internet.


Right, but keep in mind you do not necessarily need to be assigned one via DHCP. If you have ever messed with internal static IP addresses, you are essentially giving yourself your own IP which is now transmitted in the IP header. As long as the static IP you picked is not in someone else's range, you can keep using it and transmitting using it.

I assume the internet works the same way. You are usually assigned an IP address via an ISP, but if you are at the Level 1 "level," you negotiate with them and the IPv4 standards to see what you have available. In that case, you could use DHCP to assign IP addresses to people connected to you if they do not have static IPs they want to keep track of.


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## InfamousLegend

And Omicron just went back above my comprehension level again, haha.


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## l0max

fyi the backbone of the internet is not dhcp.

the internet is a collection of servers. these servers talk to eachother to:
1. route packets
2.resolve domain names
3. a whole bunch of other purposes

a packet comes in with a source and destination address, your server must know where it's supposed to go, how do you think you'd go about routing other people's packets? if the person is a subscriber you know what their address is, if it's your computer, you require a unique address *on the internet* in order for packets to be sent to you.
domain name services are huge databases which are run by ICANN. they list every single internet page in existence and relate them to an ip. how do you gain access to this massive list in order to route your packets to where they're supposed to go?

every isp is connected in someway, in order to connect to the internet you need to talk to an isp.


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## InfamousLegend

Damn, well I guess I shouldn't have got my hopes up, but it was a question still worth asking


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## Omicron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *InfamousLegend*
> 
> And Omicron just went back above my comprehension level again, haha.


Well, you hit the nail on the head with the assigning an IP address idea. If you recall back to TCP/IP, packets have a header for IP which is represented near the bottom of the OSI model. DHCP, or Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol, is used by routers to give computers an IP address before they can communicate. Akin to having a phone number given to you. But, with IP addresses, you could also give yourself your own IP address and communicate with it instead of having to be given one (as long as no one else has this address).

As far as the internet is concerned, it is not just a singular road owned by one person. Instead, it is a series of different major roads, each owned by a different company, which connected allows one person from Town A to reach Town B even if each town is connected to a different road. So, you can imagine that you would have to connect to at least one company's road to even be attached to the backbone.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *l0max*
> 
> fyi the backbone of the internet is not dhcp.


You're right. But from what I have observed, ISPs are given a "Swatch" of IP addresses and use something similar to it to assign each customer an IP automatically. Best thing I could describe it with. The backbone definitely has nothing like this because it is the highest level. This only applies to the lower levels from ISPs to others.


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## InfamousLegend

My TCP/IP class was a long time ago, so I've forgotten most of it, but I do recall most of what your saying Omicron, and it's making a lot more sense to me now, but it sucks free internet is not possible without piggybacking someone elses system illegally.


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## l0max

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Omicron*
> 
> As far as the internet is concerned, it is not just a singular road owned by one person. Instead, it is a series of different major roads, each owned by a different company, which connected allows one person from Town A to reach Town B even if each town is connected to a different road. So, you can imagine that you would have to connect to at least one company's road to even be attached to the backbone.
> You're right. But from what I have observed, ISPs are given a "Swatch" of IP addresses and use something similar to it to assign each customer an IP automatically. Best thing I could describe it with.


the street goes both ways, otherwise you don't have a connection. in order for the connection to exist you must be on the same subnet. your isp has a block of addresses, within this block they assign each subscriber a unique address. if i'm talking to a server on the internet, it first sends the packet to the router with the network address (first address in the subnet) and the router does the rest of the work sending the packet to the appropriate subscriber.

if you want to piggyback on major networks, you'd have to spoof the hardware on their end to think you are a subscriber; or you set a router to spoof its' mac and ip to become a demarcation point for an entire subnet; which is impossible as you'd need to know both the ip and mac address of the source hardware as well as any login information to connect to that routers connection. not even going into the costs of isp class hardware.


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## InfamousLegend

I've seen government switches and routers cost between 3k-7k ea respectively from cisco, and there were like 40 stacked on the table of each. I got to look at the order form which stated the price of the equipment.

That was just some of the new equipment coming in, that didn't include the old stuff being replaced just sitting on the floor covered in dust from years of use, and when i say sitting on the floor, I mean stacked 10 high and covering everything but a few walking paths around the tables at the center of the room.


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## l0max

how much you think these cost?
i have no idea but my guess is much more than a couple hundred thousand dollars.


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## makecoldplayhistory

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *InfamousLegend*
> 
> My TCP/IP class was a long time ago, so I've forgotten most of it, but I do recall most of what your saying Omicron, and it's making a lot more sense to me now, but it sucks free internet is not possible without piggybacking someone elses system illegally.


I've got a free connection and it's faster than everyone else's in my condo building









Whenever an engineer came to my building, I made sure to be hogging the bandwidth on another machine. That way, he'd call the office and they'd bump up the speed until we were getting 3mb!

I called up to ask for a bill as I haven't had one for a while. They said "that's because you were disconnected in Nov. 2011". I said "thanks" and quickly hung up. That was before Christmas.


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