# [OXM] Halo 4 designer brands sexy MGS5 character "lazy and exploitative"



## di inferi

A dev selling violence condemns a dev trying to sell sex?

Ah, the irony.


----------



## kx11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *di inferi*
> 
> A dev selling violence condemns a dev trying to sell sex?
> 
> Ah, the irony.


i think he was commenting on the design being " too bad and uncreative ""


----------



## frickfrock999

David Ellis is a hypocrite and an dangerously sociopathic drama queen.

You want to talk about oversexualized and exploitative females in gaming?

*Look at your own game, David.*

Like how you butchered Cortana in Halo 4.










The fact that you would go after Hideo for something you've *REPEATEDLY* done yourself is pathetic.


----------



## t00sl0w

i am deff not above things looking pretty in a game.
if the game sucks, the pretty things wont save it.
and if the game is good, well the pretty things make it all that much better.
pretty > ugger.


----------



## MPDpsycho

You can commit genocide in videogames and it's all cool, but as soon as you show something vaguely sexual everyone is offended and condemns the game as "harmful and misogynistic".


----------



## NinjaToast

I don't even want to understand him..


----------



## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> David Ellis is a hypocrite and an dangerously sociopathic drama queen.
> 
> You want to talk about oversexualized and exploitative females in gaming?
> 
> *Look at your own game, David.*
> 
> Like how you butchered Cortana in Halo 4.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> The fact that you would go after Hideo for something you've *REPEATEDLY* done yourself is pathetic.


Agree. The first Cortana iteration was something... Amazing.


----------



## sugarhell

MSG5 isnt PEGI18+?Then who cares

Its like that gta thing in 'merica


----------



## Yvese

These double standards are silly.

Violence is completely fine in their games, but when it comes to sex or sexualizing females, it's turrible.

Come on.

Sex and being attracted to sexy ladies is natural. Violence and killing people is not.


----------



## t00sl0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MPDpsycho*
> 
> You can commit genocide in videogames and it's all cool, but as soon as you show something vaguely sexual everyone is offended and condemns the game as "harmful and misogynistic".


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> These double standards are silly.
> 
> Violence is completely fine in their games, but when it comes to sex or sexualizing females, it's turrible.
> 
> Come on.
> 
> Sex and being attracted to sexy ladies is natural. Violence and killing people is not.


thats actually one of the weirdest things about our society...at least here in america.
we glorify violence but are scared to death of anything sexual....and would choose ignorance in everything VS acknowledge reality...including education, despite the damage caused.


----------



## Marin

Wasn't Cortana doing that to get Master Chiefs attention or something?


----------



## Caples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MPDpsycho*
> 
> You can commit genocide in videogames and it's all cool, but as soon as you show something vaguely sexual everyone is offended and condemns the game as "harmful and misogynistic".


Extreme violence gets condemned as well. Look at that one mission from Modern Warfare 2. Quite a large uproar about it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> These double standards are silly.
> 
> Violence is completely fine in their games, but when it comes to sex or sexualizing females, it's turrible.
> 
> Come on.
> 
> Sex and being attracted to sexy ladies is natural. Violence and killing people is not.


It's about devs not appealing to women and oversexualizing their characters in trade for actual game content. It's about making the character's looks a selling point for the game.


----------



## jordanecmusic

mgs>halo
but
crysis= mgs+halo

can't we all just get along?


----------



## jordanecmusic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Caples*
> 
> Extreme violence gets condemned as well. Look at that one mission from Modern Warfare 2. Quite a large uproar about it.
> It's about devs not appealing to women and oversexualizing their characters in trade for actual game content. It's about making the character's looks a selling point for the game.


dude its not like they're pulling a miley cyrus...


----------



## HanSomPa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> David Ellis is a hypocrite and an dangerously sociopathic drama queen.
> 
> You want to talk about oversexualized and exploitative females in gaming?
> 
> *Look at your own game, David.*
> 
> Like how you butchered Cortana in Halo 4.
> 
> The fact that you would go after Hideo for something you've *REPEATEDLY* done yourself is pathetic.


I fail to see what's wrong with Halo 4 Cortana.


----------



## Bit_reaper

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kx11*
> 
> i think he was commenting on the design being " too bad and uncreative ""


I have to kind of agree. That does not really strike me as good character design. To much fan service. I mean form what I gather shes supposed to some kind of military type and not an street hooker.

Its not that I'm really against skimpy clad chicks swinging around an big gun. For example I think Yoko Littner is a pretty fun an interesting character but that's in the completely over the top world of gurren lagann.



MGS has a "little bit" more serious and gritty tone so I don't see this type of designs fitting in all that well. Its just pushed to far outside what would be usable clothing in the games environment.


----------



## fantasyalive

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HanSomPa*
> 
> I fail to see what's wrong with Halo 4 Cortana.


Don't think anyone saying there is anything wrong with it, just saying he's hypocrite because if you look from halo 1 to halo 4 you can see obviously her becoming more sexualized in design. Sure Bungie did it too but so did his team and probably to the greatest degree.


----------



## BeerPowered

Quiet looks like a trashy whore. Mostly from the ripped up Nylons, which should be changed to shorts or something else. David brings up a good point.


----------



## GrizzleBoy

Cortana has always been a naked lady AI and it was always going to get more "graphic" as the series and its visual prowess progressed.

However, the lady in MGS has literally just been dressed up like a slag and there's no kind of artistic background behind it other than to make the woman look like a slag.

It is pretty damn lazy.


----------



## <({D34TH})>

Fan service is rather a annoying problem in the Anime/VG industry.


----------



## NinjaToast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Caples*
> 
> Extreme violence gets condemned as well. Look at that one mission from Modern Warfare 2. Quite a large uproar about it.
> *It's about devs not appealing to women and oversexualizing their characters in trade for actual game content. It's about making the character's looks a selling point for the game.*


Pshhh they're Japanese, they over-sexualize women there and honestly this is not as bad as he makes it out to be, they've done better(or worse depending on how you look at it) than this specific female character in terms of over-sexualizing in MGS in the past..


----------



## HanSomPa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fantasyalive*
> 
> Don't think anyone saying there is anything wrong with it, just saying he's hypocrite because if you look from halo 1 to halo 4 you can see obviously her becoming more sexualized in design. Sure Bungie did it too but so did his team and probably to the greatest degree.


Well my answer to that is,
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrizzleBoy*
> 
> Cortana has always been a naked lady AI and it was always going to get more "graphic" as the series and its visual prowess progressed.
> 
> However, the lady in MGS has literally just been dressed up like a slag and there's no kind of artistic background behind it other than to make the woman look like a slag.
> 
> It is pretty damn lazy.


That.


----------



## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *<({D34TH})>*
> 
> Fan service is rather a annoying problem in the Anime/VG industry.


It is actually not when properly done.

Deliberate fanservice, on the other hands, rarely is good.


----------



## Particle

Those of you saying that there is a double standard are missing the point. Fantasy violence in video games usually simulates violence against nobody in particular. By contrast, over-sexualized female characters are often seen as degrading toward women in general. That is why the two concepts are different. Sexualizing female characters is perceived as directly targeting women in much the same way violence causes an uproar when the enemy is a specific race or ethnic group like we saw in Resident Evil 5. And to be specific, it isn't the fact that some female characters are modeled to be attractive so much as it is that they tend to be nearly universally so and usually with exaggerated proportions that reflect those attributes considered to be attractive by males.

I personally do not necessarily subscribe to these sorts of perceptions, but for anyone wondering why the two are treated differently by some people, there you go.


----------



## fantasyalive

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrizzleBoy*
> 
> Cortana has always been a naked lady AI and it was always going to get more "graphic" as the series and its visual prowess progressed.
> 
> However, the lady in MGS has literally just been dressed up like a slag and there's no kind of artistic background behind it other than to make the woman look like a slag.
> 
> It is pretty damn lazy.


Really, I guess you could have fooled me. In Halo 1 and 2 it always looked like she was wearing a body suit to me /shrug. Yes in halo 3, she's obviously naked but before that, nope. Either way she's been sexualized, whether you think they just went along with the theme or did it more so, they're obviously fine with a sexualized character in their games.

-edit. I read the rest of his twitter, so yea I agree with the lazy part but not the rest.


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Particle*
> 
> Those of you saying that there is a double standard are missing the point. Fantasy violence in video games usually simulates violence against nobody in particular. By contrast, over-sexualized female characters are often seen as degrading toward women in general. That is why the two concepts are different. Sexualizing female characters is perceived as directly targeting women in much the same way violence causes an uproar when the enemy is a specific race or ethnic group like we saw in Resident Evil 5. And to be specific, it isn't the fact that some female characters are modeled to be attractive so much as it is that they tend to be nearly universally so and usually with exaggerated proportions that reflect those attributes considered to be attractive by males.
> 
> I personally do not necessarily subscribe to these sorts of perceptions, but for anyone wondering why the two are treated differently by some people, there you go.


You think all those military shooters that constantly cast Russians and/or Arabs are simulating violence against "nobody in particular"? Also, you claim that violence is aimed at no one in particular, yet much of it tends to be aimed at human males of whatever ethnicity is convenient. When was the last time you shot and killed a female, human combatant in a military shooter? If over-sexualizing female characters as seen as degrading to women, why isn't violence that is most often aimed at male characters seen as promoting violence against men? It's entirely arbitrary.


----------



## MrLime

I'm shocked that out of all the possible controversies this game could drum up (child soldiers, government spying, terrorism, nuclear weapons etc) they're focusing on the possibility of some side boob.


----------



## benben84

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrLime*
> 
> I'm shocked that out of all the possible controversies this game could drum up (child soldiers, government spying, terrorism, nuclear weapons etc) they're focusing on the possibility of some side boob.


This made me chuckle like a little kid, you said "side boob"! LOL

It's the creators games so I don't care that much what they do with the art as long as the game is good. However...that said...I was playing The Witcher 2 directors cut and the cut scene early in the game of totally nude chick took me by surprise. I had to get up and close the door to my room so my daughter wouldn't just barge in. I should have known though...


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrLime*
> 
> I'm shocked that out of all the possible controversies this game could drum up (child soldiers, government spying, terrorism, nuclear weapons etc) they're focusing on the possibility of some side boob.


I hate to be "that guy", but there's a big spotlight on supposed sexism against woman. Bigger than a lot of other topics that should be considered more controversial. The issue is becoming increasingly overblown, as if there is some industry-wide conspiracy against woman.


----------



## kx11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bit_reaper*
> 
> I have to kind of agree. That does not really strike me as good character design. To much fan service. I mean form what I gather shes supposed to some kind of military type and not an street hooker.
> 
> Its not that I'm really against skimpy clad chicks swinging around an big gun. For example I think Yoko Littner is a pretty fun an interesting character but that's in the completely over the top world of gurren lagann.
> 
> 
> 
> MGS has a "little bit" more serious and gritty tone so I don't see this type of designs fitting in all that well. Its just pushed to far outside what would be usable clothing in the games environment.


yeah

somehow this massacre comes to my mind


----------



## MrLime

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> I hate to be "that guy", but there's a big spotlight on supposed sexism against woman. Bigger than a lot of other topics that should be considered more controversial. The issue is becoming increasingly overblown, as if there is some industry-wide conspiracy against woman.


I'm aware and I'm honestly sick of it.


----------



## rootzreggae

David Ellis clearly wants attention, so he's pulling a Kanye West (you know, do something ridiculous, everyone focus on your stuff even if its bad)


----------



## tombom

Has everyone else been playing a different game than me?


----------



## kx11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> I hate to be "that guy", but there's a big spotlight on supposed sexism against woman. Bigger than a lot of other topics that should be considered more controversial. The issue is becoming increasingly overblown, as if there is some industry-wide conspiracy against woman.


you'd be surprised to know that Fan-service is Huge in japan thus Kojima wants draw those sick people to the game somehow


----------



## kx11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tombom*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has everyone else been playing a different game than me?


i have been seeing the same *female sniper* character in MGS more than any other game


----------



## TheReciever

The news seems to be degrading lately, but this seems like bait trap for clicks from some entitled designer.

Want to improve "the industry"? Create a legacy worth following more so than that of MGS.


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kx11*
> 
> you'd be surprised to know that Fan-service is Huge in japan thus Kojima wants draw those sick people to the game somehow


So according to you, if fan-service draws your attention towards an entertainment product you're a "sick" person? I won't even waste my time with you.


----------



## Paradox me

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrizzleBoy*
> 
> However, the lady in MGS has literally just been dressed up like a slag and there's no kind of artistic background behind it other than to make the woman look like a slag.


All signs point to her skin acting as active camouflage, similar to a chameleon. Both Kojima and the woman she's modeled after have hinted at there being a reason for her dress, and that's most likely it.

Of course, why wait until we have a real understanding of the issue when we can jump to conclusion based on virtually no information whastoever and stir up 'controversy.'


----------



## CynicalUnicorn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrizzleBoy*
> 
> Cortana has always been a naked lady AI and it was always going to get more "graphic" as the series and its visual prowess progressed.
> 
> However, the lady in MGS has literally just been dressed up like a slag and there's no kind of artistic background behind it other than to make the woman look like a slag.
> 
> It is pretty damn lazy.


I'm pretty sure the model just got better with time and better graphics, but each new game gave her larger and larger breasts. There's probably an analysis somewhere on the Internet. I have never quite understood how Jack Bauer can torture any minority he wants provided they're trying to destroy America, but if you drop the F bomb once or show anything vaguely related to sex on TV, you're screwed. Thanks America, and more specifically the FCC.


----------



## Bit_reaper

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tombom*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has everyone else been playing a different game than me?


Yes there has been some light&tight clothing in MGS before but its never been this ridiculous. Yes Sniper Wolf had boobs the size of Kansas crammed in to an army jacked three sizes to small but you know what she did when she went outside? She put on a proper freaking jacket.



So lets look at the MGS5 environment.

The guys ride in fully geared up with dust coats and you know ... pants



because they are in a harsh desert environment with nasty dust storms



So when "Quiet"

Runs around like this

 

It clashes with the games own world setting and atmosphere and that's what makes it a "bad design".


----------



## GrizzleBoy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Paradox me*
> 
> All signs point to her skin acting as active camouflage, similar to a chameleon. Both Kojima and the woman she's modeled after have hinted at there being a reason for her dress, and that's most likely it.
> 
> Of course, why wait until we have a real understanding of the issue when we can jump to conclusion based on virtually no information whastoever and stir up 'controversy.'


Riiiight.

So obviously there was no way to implement that without making her look like a corner girl?


----------



## Paradox me

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrizzleBoy*
> 
> Riiiight.
> 
> So obviously there was no way to implement that without making her look like a corner girl?


It's interesting to note that a bikini and stockings makes her a 'corner girl.'

How else would you take advantage of skin-based camouflage without a revealing outfit such as a bikini? Technically speaking, even giving her stockings cuts her ability's effectiveness in half. We also have no idea how she dresses when not on the battlefield making use of her camouflage.


----------



## Fullmetalaj0

This is one of the only truths in our world that I know to be 100% true and irrefutable:

Sex Sells.


----------



## RussianC

Kills Halo, thinks he is a god and tries to start something with another dev... I swear, the world we live in.....


----------



## GrizzleBoy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Paradox me*
> 
> It's interesting to note that a bikini and stockings makes her a 'corner girl.'
> 
> How else would you take advantage of skin-based camouflage without a revealing outfit such as a bikini? Technically speaking, even giving her stockings cuts her ability's effectiveness in half. We also have no idea how she dresses when not on the battlefield making use of her camouflage.


Well if you wear the uniform then?

I'm sure if you had a daughter that ever attempted to walk outside in those "clothes", you wouldn't be disagreeing with anybody who says she's dressed like a corner girl. The words would have probably come out of your own mouth first.

I guess at the end of the day this is kind of pointless though. Things making sense or being totally logical in the MGS universe was never a thing anyway.

I'm just agreeing with the Halo guy that the character design seems quite lazy.


----------



## Archngamin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Paradox me*
> 
> It's interesting to note that a bikini and stockings makes her a 'corner girl.'
> 
> How else would you take advantage of skin-based camouflage without a revealing outfit such as a bikini? Technically speaking, even giving her stockings cuts her ability's effectiveness in half. We also have no idea how she dresses when not on the battlefield making use of her camouflage.


I understand you don't mind overly sexualized characters in your video games but come on. No one in their right mind would see that picture and not think shes trashy corner girl material. At a certain point just say you don't mind the look and move on. Don't try to convince everyone else that a duck isn't a duck.


----------



## jordanecmusic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bit_reaper*
> 
> Yes there has been some light&tight clothing in MGS before but its never been this ridiculous. Yes Sniper Wolf had boobs the size of Kansas crammed in to an army jacked three sizes to small but you know what she did when she went outside? She put on a proper freaking jacket.
> 
> 
> 
> So lets look at the MGS5 environment.
> 
> The guys ride in fully geared up with dust coats and you know ... pants
> 
> 
> 
> because they are in a harsh desert environment with nasty dust storms
> 
> 
> 
> So when "Quiet"
> 
> Runs around like this
> 
> 
> 
> It clashes with the games own world setting and atmosphere and that's what makes it a "bad design".


kind of like tomb raiders tress fx. your right. this does break immersion...


----------



## Bit_reaper

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Paradox me*
> 
> It's interesting to note that a bikini and stockings makes her a 'corner girl.'
> 
> How else would you take advantage of skin-based camouflage without a revealing outfit such as a bikini? Technically speaking, even giving her stockings cuts her ability's effectiveness in half.


The stockings are probably the worst part of the entire design. Its an failed attempt to make unique clothing. If you got rid of the hole ridden stockings/leather panties and swapped in an pair of shorts then the corner girl look would be much reduced. But then it would be blander looking (not to mention dangerously close to Tomb raider) and less memorable and still very inappropriate considering the environment (if plot points like the _supposed_ skin camo are not taken into account).


----------



## lowfiwhiteguy

I'm quite sure that every female lead or side character in videogames today is exploitative to some degree, with very few exceptions (Maybe the girl from Mirror's Edge and the female protagonist of Portal/HL series are pretty tame, sex-wise). After seeing this dude's own work he's not really in a position to be throwing stones in a glass house. It's not like she's going to have DOA beach volleyball breast physics or anything.... Right?


----------



## Al plants Corn

The tweet by Jordan Amaro is priceless.

http://www.vg247.com/2013/09/06/metal-gear-solid-5-quiets-design-is-not-gratuitous-will-make-sense-in-time-says-designer/


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> David Ellis is a hypocrite and an dangerously sociopathic drama queen.
> 
> You want to talk about oversexualized and exploitative females in gaming?
> 
> *Look at your own game, David.*
> 
> Like how you butchered Cortana in Halo 4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you would go after Hideo for something you've *REPEATEDLY* done yourself is pathetic.


Not even close. The designer is right. All this shows is exactly how bad Japan is still in their "sexual suppression" cultural BS still. There is Lora Croft and then there is just plain disturbing non-sense. The character design makes it look like a porno. It's gone far past the "sexual appeal". Next thing you know they'll be throwing tentacle references into the whole ordeal.


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Al plants Corn*
> 
> The tweet by Jordan Amaro is priceless.
> 
> http://www.vg247.com/2013/09/06/metal-gear-solid-5-quiets-design-is-not-gratuitous-will-make-sense-in-time-says-designer/


You know, Halo 4 Cortana looks like she's wearing a very revealing one-piece swimsuit, along with leggings and sleeves. Not to mention her look has become increasingly human


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Al plants Corn*
> 
> The tweet by Jordan Amaro is priceless.
> 
> http://www.vg247.com/2013/09/06/metal-gear-solid-5-quiets-design-is-not-gratuitous-will-make-sense-in-time-says-designer/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, Halo 4 Cortana looks like she's wearing a very revealing one-piece swimsuit, along with leggings and sleeves. Not to mention her look has become increasingly human
Click to expand...

And he's right too...lol


----------



## ACM

Cry me a river, jeez.

People will complain about anything.


----------



## aymanibousi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> David Ellis is a hypocrite and an dangerously sociopathic drama queen.
> 
> You want to talk about oversexualized and exploitative females in gaming?
> 
> *Look at your own game, David.*
> 
> Like how you butchered Cortana in Halo 4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you would go after Hideo for something you've *REPEATEDLY* done yourself is pathetic.


You sir are the BOMB, its really funny how a violent videogame designer is condemning a "sexist" game designer when one of the halo 4 characters are naked! at least the one in MGS is wearing a bikini armor


----------



## Chakravant

So David Ellis can tell what Quiet's entire body and costume look like just from one titillating butt shot? Why hasn't the NSA added this kind of prescient asset to their agency?


----------



## Paradox me

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Archngamin*
> 
> I understand *you don't mind overly sexualized characters in your video games* but come on. No one in their right mind would see that picture and not think shes trashy corner girl material. At a certain point just say you don't mind the look and move on. Don't try to convince everyone else that a duck isn't a duck.


I do mind, actually. I'll be the first to make my distaste for fanservice known, but whether or not I like it is besides the point. It's the reaction, this notion that 'sexy' is wrong and the blatant disregard for information (or lack of) that I take issue with. Also, what are gamers and the media doing if not preaching their morals to others, trying to convince them what is and isn't acceptable in a creative industry?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bit_reaper*
> 
> (if plot points like the *supposed* skin camo are not taken into account).


It's clearly visible on her face in the now ancient E3 trailer.


----------



## Athrun Zala

How exactly does the rips in her stockings help the active camo? The design just seems lazy and makes the character hard to take seriously when her job is a sniper. Predicting a scene where after she gets up from laying in the ground all day, the sand will slowly fall from her flat stomach and shine in the desert sun.


----------



## Bit_reaper

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Paradox me*
> 
> I do mind, actually. I'll be the first to make my distaste for fanservice known, but whether or not I like it is besides the point. It's the reaction, this notion that 'sexy' is wrong and the blatant disregard for information (or lack of) that I take issue with. Also, what are gamers and the media doing if not preaching their morals to others, trying to convince them what is and isn't acceptable in a creative industry?
> It's clearly visible on her face in the now ancient E3 trailer.


Oh hadn't seen that one. In the video I saw they cut away before the pattern withdrew so it looked like she was just wearing runny mascara


----------



## Marin

Just a question and please answer. If this character was male would such an outfit still be used (as in revealing)?


----------



## CynicalUnicorn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marin*
> 
> Just a question and please answer. If this character was male would such an outfit still be used (as in revealing)?


No. Girls don't play video games, homosexuality isn't a thing, and BOOBIES.


----------



## Paradox me

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marin*
> 
> Just a question and please answer. If this character was male would such an outfit still be used (as in revealing)?


Maybe? Or _more_ revealing, perhaps.


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marin*
> 
> Just a question and please answer. If this character was male would such an outfit still be used (as in revealing)?


It probably wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities. Raiden ran around naked, holding his _gun_ for a portion of MGS2.


----------



## Alatar

Game dev X tweeting about the character design of game Y is not news.

Moved.


----------



## Cheezman

The character design _sucks_. I agree.

But, David Ellis is being an absolute hypocrite.


----------



## Bit_reaper

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CynicalUnicorn*
> 
> No. Girls don't play video games, homosexuality isn't a thing, and BOOBIES.


I don't know about that. Or have you all forgotten about Raidens little escapades in MGS2












No would you have gotten away with this if it was a woman


----------



## Athrun Zala

My question is that if Quiet's skin is camo, why is she even wearing clothes? Or if the clothes are apart of her camo, why the hell did she decide that what she is wearing would be great for sniper work? The conversation that led to her design must've been great.


----------



## DrBrogbo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Athrun Zala*
> 
> My question is that if Quiet's skin is camo, why is she even wearing clothes? Or if the clothes are apart of her camo, why the hell did she decide that what she is wearing would be great for sniper work? The conversation that led to her design must've been great.


Lol yes. The apparent outrage that has been caused over a stupid character wearing a bikini in an unimportant (in the grand scheme of things) video game (ignoring the fact that probably millions of women choose to wear bikinis in public EVERY SINGLE DAY) would be nothing compared to what she looked like if she were essentially naked and looked like she was wearing body paint.

Honestly, who the hell cares whether a female character looks "sexy" or "erotic" or whatever word they want to choose? Isn't it possible that an actual female human being might choose her outfit based on how sexy it is (regardless of how comfortable or practical it is)? I know more females that DO that than don't.

Why does it matter that she's in an ultra dusty harsh desert environment? It's a freakin' video game. Suspend your disbelief for a few hours.


----------



## lacrossewacker

Too much focus on david's hypocracy and not enough focus on his message. It's entirely true. Very rarely are females portrayed as anything but naive sexy tards.. At least Gears of War gave us a true bamf female character..


----------



## Chakravant

I do have to admit now that the entire costume has been revealed, it really doesn't look combat worthy or camouflage oriented. Even the straps on her tactical harness aren't combat ready. Oh well, give someone the benefit of the doubt and you might end up with egg on your face. Such is life.

Link to full costume.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2013/09/06/konami-reveals-sexy-design-for-quiet-the-metal-gear-solid-v-the-phantom-pain/


----------



## KatanOmega

Pot...meet Kettle.


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marin*
> 
> Just a question and please answer. If this character was male would such an outfit still be used (as in revealing)?


Men take their shirts off and expose their nipples freely in games all the time. They do it in public too. Fat people as well.


----------



## Marin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Domino*
> 
> Men take their shirts off and expose their nipples freely in games all the time. They do it in public too. Fat people as well.


That's not the equivalent.


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marin*
> 
> That's not the equivalent.


Asymmetrical equivalency. Okay.


----------



## Athrun Zala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Domino*
> 
> Men take their shirts off and expose their nipples freely in games all the time. They do it in public too. Fat people as well.


False equivalency. I really wish this argument would be abandoned. It's not the same nor will it ever.


----------



## lacrossewacker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Domino*
> 
> Men take their shirts off and expose their nipples freely in games all the time. They do it in public too. Fat people as well.


it's not just that they're in their underwear, it's how they're portrayed and how it's like the females get special physical treatment for the horny little devs...

How western devs do it...


How Japanese devs do it.....


----------



## NinjaToast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> it's not just that they're in their underwear, it's how they're portrayed and how it's like the females get special physical treatment for the horny little devs...
> 
> How western devs do it...
> 
> *
> How Japanese devs do it.....*


Japanese devs also tend to make some their Males look feminine but yeah they don't treat them like they would a female character I agree but it's funny to me he(David Ellis) posts a hypocritical jab at another dev. I don't think everyone really missed the point (regarding your earlier post and some probably did) it's just that it doesn't make him seem credible given the character design of Cortana to be honest I can't take him seriously myself doesn't mean that I didn't get his point. That said, from my experience with MGS most of the females, while looking sexy or erotic, whichever you want to use, were played quite the opposite of naive tards. MGS4 would be the exception to this as the brainwashing and transforming of the "4 beauties," or what I liked to called them the beautifully scarred women, were stupid. To be honest I'm on the fence about Quiet but it's not like I didn't expect it from Kojima plus he doesn't portray every woman this way either; Olga and Emma from MGS2 never wore anything sexy or erotic, Meryl Silverburgh (whom can be seen across varies MGS titles) most of the time is not portrayed in a sexy or erotic way and then we have "The Boss" who is also not portrayed in a sexy or erotic way until she switched into the full body suit, which I don't even remember when you even see her in it but it was sometime after she threw naked snake into the river from the bridge so she was half represented in such a way which to me was weird.


----------



## lacrossewacker

Yep, really seems hypocritical.


Cortana's breast are questionable, but halfway understandable, as the tech improved they made her more human looking. Another addition would simply being a gap between her upper and lower teeth...

But we don't see cortana deep throating the barrel of a gun or wearing whorish outfits with her undies peaking out (nor is she *characterized* that way)


----------



## NinjaToast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> *Yep, really seems hypocritical.*
> 
> Cortana's breast are questionable, but halfway understandable, as the tech improved they made her more human looking. Another addition would simply being a gap between her upper and lower teeth...
> 
> But we don't see cortana deep throating the barrel of a gun or wearing whorish outfits with her undies peaking out (nor is she *characterized* that way)


Cool, so I can guess you don't think he's a hypocrite right?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> *Too much focus on david's hypocracy* and not enough focus on his message. It's entirely true. Very rarely are females portrayed as anything but naive sexy tards.. At least Gears of War gave us a true bamf female character..
> ]


Not questionable, not halfway understandable and was not remotely talking about how she is looking more human. I can pull pictures of a previous MGS title where a female character dressed similarly (of course without the circuitry look) where she would then be considered "sexy" or "erotic" making the dev look sexist and exploitative. I don't believe that Cortana should get a pass because she's an AI, she looks like she wears a whorish outfit, yet it's okay because she's an AI and she's not characterized to look like a whore herderp.


----------



## Athrun Zala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NinjaToast*
> 
> Cool, so I can guess you don't think he's a hypocrite right?
> Not questionable, not halfway understandable and was not remotely talking about how she is looking more human. I can pull pictures of a previous MGS title where a female character dressed similarly (of course without the circuitry look) where she would then be considered "sexy" or "erotic" making the dev look sexist and exploitative. I don't believe that Cortana should get a pass because she's an AI, she looks like she wears a whorish outfit, yet it's okay because she's an AI and she's not characterized to look like a whore herderp.


How exactly is Cortana outfit even remotely bad? I guess her growing cup sizes can be seen as wrong, but there's nothing wrong with a little (I repeat a little) sexualization. But this? The fact that Kojima's argument was that he wanted a more "attractive" choice for cosplayers shows how misguided some developers are. Any female would tell you that you can be sexy without wearing as little as possible. There's a reason for the little black dress. The whole idea that Quiet's design was created in order to portray sexiness (as Kojima stated himself) proves the point David is making and I agree with it. If you can't appreciate sexiness without a shawty dressing in nothing but bra and panties you haven't experienced time with a true sexy female.


----------



## NinjaToast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Athrun Zala*
> 
> How exactly is Cortana outfit even remotely bad? I guess her growing cup sizes can be seen as wrong, but there's nothing wrong with a little (I repeat a little) sexualization. But this? The fact that Kojima's argument was that he wanted a more "attractive" choice for cosplayers shows how misguided some developers are. Any female would tell you that you can be sexy without wearing as little as possible. There's a reason for the little black dress. The whole idea that Quiet's design was created in order to portray sexiness (as Kojima stated himself) proves the point David is making and I agree with it. If you can't appreciate sexiness without a shawty dressing in nothing but bra and panties you haven't experienced time with a true sexy female.


Did I say it's bad? I said she looks like she wears a whorish outfit and she shouldn't get a pass because she's an AI.

Look at her look very closely
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg

You can clearly see her outfit in dark blue so tell me how is this different from any of these:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSIAGKxmEOEXXmux_jLSqy3qO9n-nR-1bGVA1RLcbuvcFx2EVj
http://images.wikia.com/metalgear/images/8/8f/E3-2011-metal-gear-solid-3ds-screens-20110607092303840.jpg
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130410080223/metalgear/images/9/95/Fortune-with_coat_Doc_lighting_color%28255%29.png

Because the only thing I think of is because she's an AI and it's part of her skin which to me is a stupid excuse.

David's point is valid, I agree but I'm not gonna think he isn't a hypocrite for the design of Cortana in Halo 4. Kojima is doing something he has been doing for years, does it make it right? No but are you or anyone else gonna stop it? No but if most people did something then you wouldn't see character designs like Cortana or Quiet, you'd see more character designs like Lara Croft from this years Tomb Raider or the woman from Gears of War. I'm just tired of people defending cortana's outfit when it's just as bad as quiet from an outside point of view.


----------



## HiTekJeff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> These double standards are silly.
> 
> Violence is completely fine in their games, but when it comes to sex or sexualizing females, it's turrible.
> 
> Come on.
> 
> Sex and being attracted to sexy ladies is natural. Violence and killing people is not.


+1


----------



## HiTekJeff

I have no problem at all with anything sexy for adult gamers and those rated "M" for mature. Most gamers are well over 18 years old and many surveys say in their 30s.

In terms of quality though, I think a LOT more time and better artists are needed for both those games. Neither one is that impressive compared to 3D art that you see in gallery forums and such. The new Laura Croft model is very good and should be more along those lines of quality. The rest is just a matter of conjecture and ones views.


----------



## fatherlongcat

The way I see it:

Kojima is famous for making some really dynamic characters. It's not just going to be some walking doll eye candy.
We had this same discussion about the Skullgirls kickstarter.
Making a female protagonist an all-around crappy character by making them male-centric, weak, 'GIRL POWER', or some other typical trope, does much more harm to women then some 'well-endowed' yet well-rounded realistic character.


----------



## HanSomPa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NinjaToast*
> 
> Did I say it's bad? I said she looks like she wears a whorish outfit and she shouldn't get a pass because she's an AI.


I don't see anything whorish about it. In fact, I think it fits her "theme" very well, not to mention that the "sensual" parts have been tastefully done and presented. These other characters on the other hand, blatantly show off women's cleavage and bottom in a very obvious and provocative way. Not tasteful at all.


----------



## Athrun Zala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NinjaToast*
> 
> Did I say it's bad? I said she looks like she wears a whorish outfit and she shouldn't get a pass because she's an AI.
> 
> Look at her look very closely
> http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg
> 
> You can clearly see her outfit in dark blue so tell me how is this different from any of these:
> 
> http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSIAGKxmEOEXXmux_jLSqy3qO9n-nR-1bGVA1RLcbuvcFx2EVj
> http://images.wikia.com/metalgear/images/8/8f/E3-2011-metal-gear-solid-3ds-screens-20110607092303840.jpg
> http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130410080223/metalgear/images/9/95/Fortune-with_coat_Doc_lighting_color%28255%29.png
> 
> Because the only thing I think of is because she's an AI and it's part of her skin which to me is a stupid excuse.
> 
> David's point is valid, I agree but I'm not gonna think he isn't a hypocrite for the design of Cortana in Halo 4. Kojima is doing something he has been doing for years, does it make it right? No but are you or anyone else gonna stop it? No but if most people did something then you wouldn't see character designs like Cortana or Quiet, you'd see more character designs like Lara Croft from this years Tomb Raider or the woman from Gears of War. I'm just tired of people defending cortana's outfit when it's just as bad as quiet from an outside point of view.


Whorish? The most you can see out of her design is a one piece. How is that whorish in any way? Or do you see some brazier that I just can't see? Nowhere is Cortana blatantly showing cleavage like the pictures you posted. It's her body and the way it's design fits her role and my perception of her. Quiet design does not fit her role and the same people defending it will also be the ones who complain about immersion. Her outfit is immersion breaking. Hell I know a lot of females that would be offended at the pictures you posted. How hard is it to zip up the suit. The sexiness proposed is one created by male thought and doesn't reflect what a female would think. Simple as that cuz. The supposed hypocrisy is just denial of the same nonsense that's been going on forever. Kojima is subscribing to the sex sells philosophy and his own justification for the design shows as much.


----------



## MPDpsycho

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Athrun Zala*
> 
> Whorish? The most you can see out of her design is a one piece. How is that whorish in any way? Or do you see some brazier that I just can't see? Nowhere is Cortana blatantly showing cleavage like the pictures you posted. It's her body and the way it's design fits her role and my perception of her. Quiet design does not fit her role and the same people defending it will also be the ones who complain about immersion. Her outfit is immersion breaking. Hell I know a lot of females that would be offended at the pictures you posted. How hard is it to zip up the suit. *]The sexiness proposed is one created by male thought and doesn't reflect what a female would think[/B. Simple as that cuz. The supposed hypocrisy is just denial of the same nonsense that's been going on forever. Kojima is subscribing to the sex sells philosophy and his own justification for the design shows as much.*






Obviously not a woman, right?

Your attitude, making bold statements on how women should think and dress is even more "harmful" than Quiet's character design.


----------



## Athrun Zala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MPDpsycho*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously not a woman, right?
> 
> Your attitude, making bold statements on how women should think and dress is even more "harmful" than Quiet's character design.


Where did I ever say how women should dress or how they should think? Did the girl in the video have a say in Quiet's design? No. The design is created on what Kojima think cosplayers would find attractive and his own idea of sexy. Cosplayers can make any costume attractive, that's what they do. So how am I saying a character doesn't need to be dressed in as little as possible in order to be sexy (again his words, not mine) means I'm making statements on how women should dress? Miss me with all of that. Not every woman is going to be offended, but to put that down by showing an example of a woman whose not does not prove any point. David is right. It's lazy.


----------



## DrBrogbo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Athrun Zala*
> 
> Where did I ever say how women should dress or how they should think? Did the girl in the video have a say in Quiet's design? No. The design is created on what Kojima think cosplayers would find attractive and his own idea of sexy. Cosplayers can make any costume attractive, that's what they do. So how am I saying a character doesn't need to be dressed in as little as possible in order to be sexy (again his words, not mine) means I'm making statements on how women should dress? Miss me with all of that.


Since, despite the fact that it was bolded, you missed the point, let me share your direct quote: "*The sexiness proposed is one created by male thought and doesn't reflect what a female would think*."

You are not only presuming to speak on behalf of all women everywhere (nice job with the sexism), but you are directly implying that women would never find her design sexy, which is odd given how there are ALREADY female cosplayers, apparently.


----------



## Athrun Zala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DrBrogbo*
> 
> Since, despite the fact that it was bolded, you missed the point, let me share your direct quote: "*The sexiness proposed is one created by male thought and doesn't reflect what a female would think*."
> 
> You are not only presuming to speak on behalf of all women everywhere (nice job with the sexism), but you are directly implying that women would never find her design sexy, which is odd given how there are ALREADY female cosplayers, apparently.


Well it wasn't intentional and if that's what it came off as then it's my fault and I accept that, but my point on the matter stands. The design just seems to be a grab at being provocative for the sake of being provocative. I've seen plenty of costumes that wasn't intentionally meant to be sexy that was made extremely seductive by creative minds. Of course some women will like it, but there are several people who are saying that the ones offended have no reason to be, which is wrong. At the end of the day, this is all going to blow over and none of us will remember it, but you call a spade a spade and I'm calling it like I see it.


----------



## Cheezman

I've taken the liberty to fix Quiet.



Now her attire is _completely_ desert warfare appropriate!


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marin*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Domino*
> 
> Men take their shirts off and expose their nipples freely in games all the time. They do it in public too. Fat people as well.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not the equivalent.
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Athrun Zala*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Domino*
> 
> Men take their shirts off and expose their nipples freely in games all the time. They do it in public too. Fat people as well.
> 
> 
> 
> False equivalency. I really wish this argument would be abandoned. It's not the same nor will it ever.
Click to expand...









taking sarcasm literally isn't going to get you closer to the ladies... Lololll
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Domino*
> 
> Men take their shirts off and expose their nipples freely in games all the time. They do it in public too. Fat people as well.
> 
> 
> 
> it's not just that they're in their underwear, it's how they're portrayed and how it's like the females get special physical treatment for the horny little devs...
> 
> How western devs do it...
> 
> 
> How Japanese devs do it.....
Click to expand...

Hey! He understands! Nailed it right on the head. Outside of a few cases in Western developers where it's the minority, the majority of the latter is absolutely true.


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> I've taken the liberty to fix Quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> Now her attire is _completely_ desert warfare appropriate!


Now give her proper 2 colour desert camo bdu pants and everything will be fine. Why they have to go the extra mile and make it exploitative is beyond that of how bad our society distorts the female's mind.


----------



## redxmaverick

Just put Quiet in a thong leotard like Cammy from Street Fighter because girls don't seem to mind cosplaying as Cammy. lol


----------



## Particle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> You think all those military shooters that constantly cast Russians and/or Arabs are simulating violence against "nobody in particular"? Also, you claim that violence is aimed at no one in particular, yet much of it tends to be aimed at human males of whatever ethnicity is convenient. When was the last time you shot and killed a female, human combatant in a military shooter? If over-sexualizing female characters as seen as degrading to women, why isn't violence that is most often aimed at male characters seen as promoting violence against men? It's entirely arbitrary.


When I use qualifiers like "usually", I do so intentionally. Some games target specific groups, but _usually_ they're made-up groups that are vaguely reminiscent of an averaged representation of a huge geographic area with no particular country or ethnic group assigned to it. If you're playing a game themed around the Vietnam war or something like that, it's obviously specific and does not fall within the games I'm talking about.

As for seeing female characters in games, I suppose last night was the last time I saw an enemy female character. They do exist, but it's up to the game designer. Unlike universally sexualized female characters in games, violent enemy groups dominated by male characters is actually reflective of reality.

You also seem to be missing the point in the first place. We just want to see the inclusion of more "normal" female characters in games. They don't have to be models or comically exaggerated with such great frequency.


----------



## TheReciever

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Particle*
> 
> When I use qualifiers like "usually", I do so intentionally. Some games target specific groups, but _usually_ they're made-up groups that are vaguely reminiscent of an averaged representation of a huge geographic area with no particular country or ethnic group assigned to it. If you're playing a game themed around the Vietnam war or something like that, it's obviously specific and does not fall within the games I'm talking about.
> 
> As for seeing female characters in games, I suppose last night was the last time I saw an enemy female character. They do exist, but it's up to the game designer. Unlike universally sexualized female characters in games, violent enemy groups dominated by male characters is actually reflective of reality.
> 
> You also seem to be missing the point in the first place. We just want to see the inclusion of more "normal" female characters in games. They don't have to be models or comically exaggerated with such great frequency.


Then I think Ellie Langford would be quite acceptable by your standards

Not trying to poke or anything, Ellie is one of my favorite characters of all time


----------

