# Never been convinced by Linux? Here is a challenge for you.



## Choggs396

Quote:

Here is my challenge: Install Linux, set it up how you like it, and run it for a week or so - and I'm talking really run it - do not boot Windows unless you really have to (so for games, or whatever).
If I have to boot into Windows for games, I'll be in Windows for most of the time I'm using my computer anyway. The rest? Emails, OCN, and typing papers for school using MS Word. Why would I switch to Linux for that?

No offense, and I'm not trying to flame, but Vista works great for what I do and the majority of what others do. So I think I'll stick with a single OS that does everything I need.


----------



## AvalancheX

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Choggs396* 
If I have to boot into Windows for games, I'll be in Windows for most of the time I'm using my computer anyway. The rest? Emails, OCN, and typing papers for school using MS Word. Why would I switch to Linux for that?

No offense, and I'm not trying to flame, but Vista works great for what I do and the majority of what others do. So I think I'll stick with a single OS that does everything I need.

Couldn't of put it better myself, the most perfect of counter arguements.
+Rep.

Not that there is anything 'wrong' with Linux par-ce


----------



## Dezixn

Linux is awesome.

I just wish I could use it. No support for most games = a no go









I would put it on my parents' computers, but they can hardly make it through windows... Going to linux would be hell on them.


----------



## RickJS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Linux. If you are one of those people who just don't believe there is a reason why they should run it, you are at the right place. This is a post telling you why I believe Linux is worth using, addressing the issues as to why people do not use it, and then my challenge to you to see which you prefer. You stand nothing to loose, and a lot to gain. At worst, if you turn out disliking Linux you can then say 'I've tried it, I dislike it, here is why.' - and If you can say that, give a good reason, and have really done it - no one can (with any real argument) say anything against you - and everyone wants that! Of course, I believe that you will prefer Linux and I'll have helped someone out and added to the community (the more people using FOSS, the more support it gets, which means it gets better - so in the end, it's me being selfish







).
*
First of all, I'll start with something, there are generally three types of Linux user. The Fanboy/Activist, who believes they need to convert everyone in the world to Linux and that Windows should be destroyed forever. The mature user, who uses Linux, and will happily talk about it and try to encourage new users, but will not annoy people and will always give a valid argument. Lastly, there are the recluses - the group that believe that if you don't know what to do when you have only a command line in front of you you should not be running Linux.
The three groups can also be sorted as so: Runs Ubuntu, Thinks Ubuntu Is Fine, Hates Ubuntu.
I am personally trying to be in the second group, although can sometimes end up in the first, I admit freely.*



Its a good read, but you forgot the user who likes linux, and would use it BUT IT DOESN'T GAME and its stopping him.

...like me. Otherwise I'd use linux.


----------



## Choggs396

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
*Let's face it. Windows crashes. A lot.* XP seemed more stable than before, and Vista is OK, but I have never had a problem (that I have not caused myself) with Linux. It is nice knowing that you are not facing a crash.

No, it doesn't. I've owned Vista for over 6 months and its never crashed on me. Not once. Not even from overclocking.

Windows XP only crashed a few times when overclocking the FSB without enough voltage. This was an obvious hardware problem that I "caused myself". Other than that, not a single crash.

I just had to add those bits of information because I know I'm not alone. And saying "Windows crashes. A lot" seems misleading, at the very least.


----------



## RickJS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Choggs396* 
No, it doesn't. I've owned Vista for over 6 months and its never crashed on me. Not once. Not even from overclocking.

Windows XP only crashed a few times when overclocking the FSB without enough voltage. This was an obvious hardware problem that I "caused myself". Other than that, not a single crash.

I just had to add those bits of information because I know I'm not alone. And saying outright "Windows crashes" seems misleading at least.

I second this motion, the only problem I've had with vista is theres this one small windows update that won't install and its annoying.


----------



## TUDJ

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dezixn* 
Linux is awesome.

I just wish I could use it. No support for most games = a no go









Same. *If it supported games* I would use it 24/7.

atm I have a dual boot setup; XP/Ubuntu but I havent loaded up ubuntu in over a month. I love linux, especially the amount of customisation but it doesnt offer me anything above windows to warrant me using Linux for everything but gaming, its just easier (and more convenient to use windows)

Nice post though









EDIT:

The bit in bold makes it sound like its Linux's fault that we can't game on it, its because the games are not developed to do so.


----------



## Sistum Id

I downloaded Ubuntu the other day but havent got around to trying it out. I came across the Vista (Aero) Vs Ubuntu (Beryl) few days ago and I was very fascinated with Beryl. So I went and downloaded a copy of Ubuntu but havent got the time.

Why cant Linux run todays games? Whats the problem?

I made the jump to Vista month or so ago when I saw that Ultimate had this thing called Dreamscene (yes am a sucker for eyecandy). Is it possible for Ubuntu to have something like Dreamscene? (looped motion desktop)


----------



## spice003

if somebody showed me linux and how to use it back when i started using pcs, i would be using linux now. But relearning the whole OS is hard, especially all of the commands. I mean u need to know the command just to install something, its just to complicated for me right now. They also need more driver support for simple stuff like Logitech mice for back and forward buttons, instead u have to configure files. I am not saying linux sucks cause i would gladly use it since its free but its too time consuming to learn it. But i got say with new releases coming out, i might switch in a year or two.


----------



## Sistum Id

Did he give up? Hurry back!!!


----------



## purdueman

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
I downloaded Ubuntu the other day but havent got around to trying it out. I came across the Vista (Aero) Vs Ubuntu (Beryl) few days ago and I was very fascinated with Beryl. So I went and downloaded a copy of Ubuntu but havent got the time.

Why cant Linux run todays games? Whats the problem?

I made the jump to Vista month or so ago when I saw that Ultimate had this thing called Dreamscene (yes am a sucker for eyecandy). Is it possible for Ubuntu to have something like Dreamscene? (looped motion desktop)

Linux can run games just not most of the high profile games becuase they are designed specifically for Windows. Also Linux lacks a thing called DirectX. I HATE YOU MICROSOFT! You can run some games through emulators like WOW and such and some OpenGl games. Beryl is way better than aero and even Dreamscene.

I love linux and would use as my 24/7 os if it could play all the games I wanted it too.


----------



## blupupher

I have tried using Knoppix, but just can't figure it out.
I have been debating trying a permanant installed Linux on an old PC sitting in my garage (if I can get it working) just to try and have a 24/7 folding system.

As said above though, I don't really want to try and figure out a new OS when the one I have works fine. I can't remember the last time Windows crashed on me (that was not an overclock related issue).


----------



## Lude

I had far less errors, bugs, etc in Linux versus XP. HOWEVER, i have had far less errors running Vista than Linux or XP. Linux is fine and all, and i would use it if i could at least run some of the software i needed. Not just games, but including games. I know there are plenty of free open source alternatives, but rarely do they match what can be run on Windows. Windows is extremely user friendly, Linux, until recently, has not been. I have noticed it has been getting more user friendly, and by that i mean using the Command Line/Terminal less. The average person doesnt want to have to look up on the internet how to do simple things in their OS. I have used Linux on and off plenty, and at first it is a pain in the ass to get running how i want with all the software and abilities installed (media players, mp3 support, etc). Then somethings screws up somehow. On numerous occasions something happened (kernal update i think) that caused me to not be able to boot into Linux anymore. Also, i got about as much "Program not responding" in Linux as i did XP.

The main things holding Linux back: Software (including games), and user friendliness. The latter is getting better, but once that improves even more and more people start to use Linux, then the software will slowly begin to come.

As far as a free OS goes, Linux is great.

That is my take on Linux.


----------



## Stevo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Here is my challenge: Install Linux, set it up how you like it, and run it for a week or so â€" and I'm talking really run it (this is the important bit) â€" do not boot Windows unless you really have to (so for games, or whatever). If you find that OK, continue running it for up to a month â€" then go back and try out running Windows again. Which do you prefer? I guarantee you will prefer Linux. The big problem is the first step, once you are running Linux, Windows is an unattractive offer.

And that is it. If there is anything I have missed, or a reason why you are not trying Linux â€" do tell me and I'll try to address it. Linux is not perfect, but I do believe strongly it is the best Operating System out there.

What distro of linux would you suggest for people starting off?


----------



## purdueman

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blupupher* 
I have tried using Knoppix, but just can't figure it out.
I have been debating trying a permanant installed Linux on an old PC sitting in my garage (if I can get it working) just to try and have a 24/7 folding system.

As said above though, I don't really want to try and figure out a new OS when the one I have works fine. I can't remember the last time Windows crashed on me (that was not an overclock related issue).

Ya try linux out on that old box. I first tried Xubuntu on a P3 400mhz, 192mb RAM, 10gb HD, box. And I loved it, fairly easy to set it up too. Actually the older system the easier it is too set it up.


----------



## blupupher

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purdueman* 
Ya try linux out on that old box. I first tried Xubuntu on a P3 400mhz, 192mb RAM, 10gb HD, box. And I loved it, fairly easy to set it up too. Actually the older system the easier it is too set it up.

I think it is a P III 8-900 mhz with 256mb ram and a 9 gig HD.
I need to figure out what is wrong with it (I think IDE1 is bad) so it won't boot.
If I can get it working, I may just give it a try (Ubuntu would be the best to try?).

That is part of the problem too, too many different versions of Linux.
Lude brings up a good point also, user interface is much easier (and idiot proof) with Windows. My daughter figured out the basics of Windows @ age 3. Just poing and click, no typing needed. Linux, from my little experience is much more difficult.


----------



## purdueman

Quote:



Originally Posted by *blupupher*


That is part of the problem too, too many different versions of Linux.
Lude brings up a good point also, user interface is much easier (and idiot proof) with Windows. My daughter figured out the basics of Windows @ age 3. Just poing and click, no typing needed. Linux, from my little experience is much more difficult.


I beg to differ. I had my mom and my sister using Xubuntu for a couple of months until we got a new computer. They noticed it was different, but they got by and did there tasks. Email, internet, word documents, and etc. If my mom can survive on linux anyone can. My mom has had more trouble learning Vista than Xubuntu actually.

Trust my try Xubuntu on that old P3.


----------



## Sistum Id

Well I will be installing Ubuntu tonight on my test laptop and see how it goes. If I like it...then maybe this Thursday Ill install Ubuntu on my main machine. As long as I can run Rappelz on it then Ill be happy.


----------



## biatchi

Nice post but sadly i think we are fighting a losing battle. I think for most people it's a case of if it's not broken why fix it and also gaming is a massive turn off for most people.

I just wish everybody on ocn with duals/quads would run a 64bit distro and get smp folding so we can really start raping the teams above us


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

lol I don't hear people taking the challenge! All I hear is people justifying their captivity in the windows cycle!

I've slowly been learning Linux over the years. I can certainly understand people needing certain things only windows can provide (not because Linux is bad, but rather because support is all on windows.)

The only time I have to mess with configuration is if I'm doing something fancy (I guess mouse side buttons happen to be "fancy" for Linux =\\ ). Ethernet is installed by default. Sound is installed by default. Video drivers can be installed with one click (at least in Suse; in Sabayon it was installed by default). And in distros such as Suse and Debian-based (Debian, *buntu) and I think even Fedora, software installation is a matter of one click. That's how I've been getting around in Suse for about a week now. I haven't had to compile anything by source yet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stevo* 
What distro of linux would you suggest for people starting off?

I'd recommend either:

Ubuntu (very easy to use), specifically Mint. Mint is set up out of the box the way most people would like their computer. For the short time I used it, it didn't do some stupid things like other distros did. And it came with Compiz-fusion by default which, imo, blows aero out of the water.

Sabayon was another distro that was fairly easy to use, at least out of the box. I didn't spend too much time on it, but it came with lots of pre-installed stuff. This was particularly useful to me because I'm kinda Linux-dumb. I did have kind of a hard time upgrading stuff that did come pre-installed, though. However, I'm not familiar with Portage anyway (the Sabayon and Gentoo package manager). Sabayon is based on Gentoo which is supposed to be one of the more powerful Linux distros; someone with better knowledge would know how to update stuff better than I would.

Now currently, I'm using Suse. I'm finding it to be very easy. I set a couple sites up as repositories for my package manager, and now it's a matter of typing in a description of the program I want to get it, click the check box, and hitting "Accept." Installing nVidia drivers was as easy as googling "suse nvidia drivers," clicking on the site, then clicking on the "One-click Install" button.

Suse uses its own control center called "Yast." Some people don't like it (I don't know why), but I find it to be really helpful.

Anyway, I hope someone decides to take up the challenge and has fun with it. Good luck.

PS: Can't wait for paulito to come in and say how anyone in here disagreeing with his windows fanaticism is either stupid or a fanboy


----------



## Aden Florian

this is how i think each OS pairs up with a users computer skill:

Mac OSX - Beginner
Windows XP\\Vista - Intermediate
Linux Ubuntu - Expert


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Aden Florian*


this is how i think each OS pairs up with a users computer skill:

Mac OSX - Beginner
Windows XPVista - Intermediate
Linux Ubuntu - Expert


I'll agree with that, but I'd put Ubuntu in intermediate, and maybe Gentoo, Slack, or FreeBSD at expert









Although some people at the higher level prefer using the lower level for simplicity's sake (I prefer low-maintenance for desktop usage.)


----------



## rocketman331

I've gained some experience with linux when I'd configure them for DNS / dedicated gaming servers for large scale lans. I've become very disappointed with it when it comes to my laptop. It's HP's fault but the fact that I have so many issues with APIC basically prevents me from installing any version without customizing everything to work right. Even then it's been a 3 week struggle to get audio/wireless to work right. I'm not anti-linux at all (i'm frustrated because I can't get it to work) but when you have an Open Source OS that requires extensive setup customization how can you expect it to be mainstream. Hardware is always changing and as a result the hardware support is lacking. Vista had it's issues but as far as setup goes it was the easiest...and sadly the most reliable I have seen so far.


----------



## Kirmie

Ubuntu, at least its current release, is easilly intermediate. I would switch to it 24/7 except for two reasons. The first is obviously gaming. The second is that Ubunutu does not like my wireless network. I have tried all of the wireless USB NICs I have but have not gotten the network to work correctly. With my current setup I can reach the internet but after a while, usualy within 30 mins, the connection and the network manager crap out and it becomes impossible to reconnect without a reboot. I have yet to have any other issues with Ubuntu though and it works fantastic with the internet connected. So a little bit better support, or an upgrade to a better supported NIC on my end, and I will likely be a lifer.


----------



## Coma

Here's my question to you: Can you run AviSynth on Linux? Note that many of the plugins are DLLs with optimized assembly code.


----------



## Sistum Id

Well I installed Ubuntu and I am having trouble install simple programs...like Winrar... I read some of the commands but its not working... Maybe Windows made me lazy but is there a easier way to install a exe with out having to do the terminal coding?


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
Well I installed Ubuntu and I am having trouble install simple programs...like Winrar... I read some of the commands but its not working... Maybe Windows made me lazy but is there a easier way to install a exe with out having to do the terminal coding?

OK, your first problem is you are still thinking windows software. Open up Synaptic Package Manager (System -> Admin -> Synaptic Package Manager) and then do a search for 'unrar' - then install the unrar package (Not unrar-free is the open source version, but lacks some features, so you probably want unrar.) then just open any rared files with 'Archive Manager' - which should be the default when you try and open an archive. You don't need WinRar, WinRar is windows software, '.exe's are Windows software.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Coma* 
Here's my question to you: Can you run AviSynth on Linux? Note that many of the plugins are DLLs with optimized assembly code.

http://avisynth.org/AviSynth30 <- Apparently version 3.0 has an official Linux port, so that appears to be sorted.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirmie* 
Ubuntu, at least its current release, is easilly intermediate. I would switch to it 24/7 except for two reasons. The first is obviously gaming. The second is that Ubunutu does not like my wireless network. I have tried all of the wireless USB NICs I have but have not gotten the network to work correctly. With my current setup I can reach the internet but after a while, usualy within 30 mins, the connection and the network manager crap out and it becomes impossible to reconnect without a reboot. I have yet to have any other issues with Ubuntu though and it works fantastic with the internet connected. So a little bit better support, or an upgrade to a better supported NIC on my end, and I will likely be a lifer.

Wireless networks are a pain, unfortunately, the developers don't release drivers or specs, so they have to be reverse-engineered, which takes time. My suggestion is to use Wireless Access points - see the link in my sig. They are the best way to set up any wireless network, in my opinion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketman331* 
I've gained some experience with linux when I'd configure them for DNS / dedicated gaming servers for large scale lans. I've become very disappointed with it when it comes to my laptop. It's HP's fault but the fact that I have so many issues with APIC basically prevents me from installing any version without customizing everything to work right. Even then it's been a 3 week struggle to get audio/wireless to work right. I'm not anti-linux at all (i'm frustrated because I can't get it to work) but when you have an Open Source OS that requires extensive setup customization how can you expect it to be mainstream. Hardware is always changing and as a result the hardware support is lacking. Vista had it's issues but as far as setup goes it was the easiest...and sadly the most reliable I have seen so far.

That is a shame, but hopefully just a problem with specific hardware. Unfortunately, again, there is little that can be done, when linux turns mainstream, the hardware developers will be forced to release drivers/specs, but until then, there is little that can be done.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blupupher* 
I think it is a P III 8-900 mhz with 256mb ram and a 9 gig HD.
I need to figure out what is wrong with it (I think IDE1 is bad) so it won't boot.
If I can get it working, I may just give it a try (Ubuntu would be the best to try?).

That is part of the problem too, too many different versions of Linux.
Lude brings up a good point also, user interface is much easier (and idiot proof) with Windows. My daughter figured out the basics of Windows @ age 3. Just poing and click, no typing needed. Linux, from my little experience is much more difficult.

There are a lot of Versions of Linux, because it gives you the choice. Linux is not a hard operating system to use - it is just different. A friend of mine who ran a magnet over a hard drive to try to fix it (yeah, I know) runs Linux happily. It is not hard, it just takes a week or so of getting used to. Now-a-days, Linux (well, at least Ubuntu) is damned easy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stevo* 
What distro of linux would you suggest for people starting off?

Ubuntu - it's the one that is the easiest at the moment. I'd suggest vanilla Ubuntu over any of the other Ubuntu based distros - if it is more mainstream, there are likely to be less problems.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lude* 
I had far less errors, bugs, etc in Linux versus XP. HOWEVER, i have had far less errors running Vista than Linux or XP. Linux is fine and all, and i would use it if i could at least run some of the software i needed. Not just games, but including games. I know there are plenty of free open source alternatives, but rarely do they match what can be run on Windows. Windows is extremely user friendly, Linux, until recently, has not been. I have noticed it has been getting more user friendly, and by that i mean using the Command Line/Terminal less. The average person doesnt want to have to look up on the internet how to do simple things in their OS. I have used Linux on and off plenty, and at first it is a pain in the ass to get running how i want with all the software and abilities installed (media players, mp3 support, etc). Then somethings screws up somehow. On numerous occasions something happened (kernal update i think) that caused me to not be able to boot into Linux anymore. Also, i got about as much "Program not responding" in Linux as i did XP.

The main things holding Linux back: Software (including games), and user friendliness. The latter is getting better, but once that improves even more and more people start to use Linux, then the software will slowly begin to come.

As far as a free OS goes, Linux is great.

That is my take on Linux.

Name some software that you need under Linux? Because everything (except games, I admit) I use I generally find better than the Windows counterpart. User friendliness is now impeccable - the only problem is people are used to windows. Linux is actually easier, people just dislike change.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spice003* 
if somebody showed me linux and how to use it back when i started using pcs, i would be using linux now. But relearning the whole OS is hard, especially all of the commands. I mean u need to know the command just to install something, its just to complicated for me right now. They also need more driver support for simple stuff like Logitech mice for back and forward buttons, instead u have to configure files. I am not saying linux sucks cause i would gladly use it since its free but its too time consuming to learn it. But i got say with new releases coming out, i might switch in a year or two.

It really is not that hard. Take my challenge and try it - You will be surprised, it is very easy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
I downloaded Ubuntu the other day but havent got around to trying it out. I came across the Vista (Aero) Vs Ubuntu (Beryl) few days ago and I was very fascinated with Beryl. So I went and downloaded a copy of Ubuntu but havent got the time.

Why cant Linux run todays games? Whats the problem?

I made the jump to Vista month or so ago when I saw that Ultimate had this thing called Dreamscene (yes am a sucker for eyecandy). Is it possible for Ubuntu to have something like Dreamscene? (looped motion desktop)

Linux can't run today's games because they are written for Windows - it's like having Petrol and Diesel cars, you can't run one on the other. It's all down to the developers. Some games have native Linux ports (Unreal Tournament) - and that is great, most outperform the Windows clients, and some will run under WINE (A windows compatibility layer - not an Emulator!). Try running Ubuntu as my challenge goes is my suggestion, and yes, Compiz Fuzion is the eye-candy for the desktop, and blows dreamscene out of the water. Try it. (In Ubuntu, just go to System -> Appearance -> Effects and then turn them on.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Choggs396* 
If I have to boot into Windows for games, I'll be in Windows for most of the time I'm using my computer anyway. The rest? Emails, OCN, and typing papers for school using MS Word. Why would I switch to Linux for that?

No offense, and I'm not trying to flame, but Vista works great for what I do and the majority of what others do. So I think I'll stick with a single OS that does everything I need.

You just said one of my points 'Windows works, why bother?' - It is a hard one to counter. Living in the trees as monkeys worked, but would you not rather be in today's age? Having your CPU at default clock speed works, but would you not rather overclock? It is worth doing, for general usage, Linux is a lot better. Try the challenge, then come back.

Sorry if I missed anything, or accidentally dodged something, feel free to say if you still have a problem or feel I have missed something. There was a lot to write.


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

Everyone saying, "I use Windows, I'm happy with it, why switch?" isn't thinking far ahead.

I used to be in that camp. Then, I built my first computer, thought it was pretty cool, and built 2 more. So... should I pay $900 to buy three full licenses for Vista? I could buy them for $100 each and just never change my motherboard. That would work too. But guess what. I'll probably be modding my computer as time goes on. That means new motherboard, that means a new version of Windows, that means more $$$ I have to spend on my OS.

The reason that they only charge $100 or so for the OEM version is that MS estimates the average user will buy it 3 times before their next version comes out. Well, that's an oversimplification- they are also looking at theft and piracy issues and adding those costs in, but basically, they figure you'll buy it three times. Ouch... But now, you younger kids, you have advantages here. You can get educational versions of Windows for cheap. I got my version of Windows 2000 for $20, IIRC, through my university. Now, I'm a grown up and don't have access to that. You younger kids can also use your parents' disks. Then, if MS comes knocking on your door, your parents say, "We didn't know what little Johnny was doing!" and you say, "I didn't know it was wrong..." and shed a little crocodile tear and you settle for $100 or some chump change (which your parents will pay) and go happily on your way (but let's be realistic, we all know you'll never get caught or hassled even, so why worry at all? Just keep ripping off the man).

Why worry? why bother? Because eventually, you will grow up and realize that you need the new release (for me, it's Vista...) You will realize you can't get it for free, or ethically that won't sit well with you. You will face having to shell out for the product that you used to get for free and you will be hooked. Kind of like pushing drugs... 2000 is free for you because you're in college. But when you're Jonesing for XP or Vista, we're going to charge you... and then we've got you.

Going cold turkey to Linux was a little difficult for me, but deep down I'm a bit of a computer geek, so I enjoyed it. I'm now 98% off of windows at home and I can borrow my gf's windows laptop for my windows needs (just paying one bill that won't work with firefox or konqueror and converting files to mp3- something that is easy with most other distros). And after all this, I never have to pay for software again. Those of you running Windows are probably either young enough that your parents pay for stuff, new enough to computers that Windows is subsidizing you to get you hooked (that lasts until about the age of 20-25 or so), are willing to spend another $100 (on top of the cost of the graphics card) to play kick-ass video games, or are buying boxed computers from Dell or Gateway.

And hey, if it's free or cheap, I can't blame you for using it. I would use it too if it were free. Heck, it's probably even worth $25 or so. But that's about all I'd pay for it. I can't buy it for that price, so I'm using Linux. Someday, you probably will too.


----------



## eureka

If I didn't have Wi-Fi i'd probably have a debian install on here... Or a gentoo one.


----------



## stumped

MS games don't work on Linux for a few reasons:

First is DirectX. This is just a Microsoft thing. Linux uses OpenGL and Qt. Games for Microsoft aren't designed to utilize that.

The second, is the coding. Each linux dristro has different version of applications (although they try to stay as current as possible) Each application IS installed from scratch (the reo's just set it up inside of an installable file) There is a cammand that is typed in the command line before it is insalled. It is called *make* This writes a file that tells the compiler what to do based on your current applications. Each disrto has this set up differently with different versions of apps and compilers. I would be impossible to make a game that is *CLOSED* source be able to support *SO MANY* different versions. It would just cause too many bugs and delays and cost too much$

Once you set your self up with linux, There are SO many support forums where you can ask a question and get the help you need. Even in Windows there is a leraning curve. *YOU GUYS* are just used to Windows so you say *Windows is easier, why switch?* But once you get to linux, you get a whole NEW understanding about HOW your computer works and you increase your computer skills 10 fold. (ok, that might be a bit oof an exaggeration, but it is partly true.) You come to realize how unique Linux users are and how unique Linux is.

Give your self a week to get it installed and setup, and then to learn a few things about it and features it has.

It is only a bit complicated because the hardware companies refuse (well most refuse) to release open source drivers. Be glad you *CAN* even startup linux on that new computer of yours. It is because there are people who devote their time and computer to help others out there.


----------



## jhotmann21

i occasionally use backtrack 2 for "security testing aka amateur hacking" but thats about it for my linux use plus i can just run it live off the cd...i dont mind using commands i just prefer the convenience of not having to reboot for gaming.


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *tUDJ*


Same. *If it supported games* I would use it 24/7.


Same here. I'm not Microsoft fanboy by any means. I'm an "OS-that-provides-everything-I-need" fanboy. If all my games could be run on Linux, I'd be there in a heartbeat.

In order of importance, I require:
1) Compatibility (and therefore usability)
2) Stability
3) Security

Microsoft has done one heck of a job ensuring that developers keep them on top with regard to compatibility. Until that changes, I just don't see gamers making the switch. It's a shame, but it's the way it is.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *stumped*


MS games don't work on Linux for a few reasons:

First is DirectX. This is just a Microsoft thing. Linux uses OpenGL and Qt. Games for Microsoft aren't designed to utilize that.

The second, is the coding. Each linux dristro has different version of applications (although they try to stay as current as possible) Each application IS installed from scratch (the reo's just set it up inside of an installable file) There is a cammand that is typed in the command line before it is insalled. It is called *make* This writes a file that tells the compiler what to do based on your current applications. Each disrto has this set up differently with different versions of apps and compilers. I would be impossible to make a game that is *CLOSED* source be able to support *SO MANY* different versions. It would just cause too many bugs and delays and cost too much$


Uh, that isn't really how it works.
a) QT is the toolkit for KDE, it's for windows (as in the things applications are in, not the OS), nothing to do with games.
b) Actually, that isn't a problem at all. The reason that FOSS software needs package management is because it depends on other FOSS software - with proprietary software (closed source), they ship all of the dependencies along with a program/game (hence DLL hell). With packages, and with closed source software, you do not/would not compile the software. It is entirely possible to ship closed source games for Linux - look at Unreal Tournament. The only reason it is not done is the lack of a large enough market.


----------



## Choggs396

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


You just said one of my points 'Windows works, why bother?' - It is a hard one to counter. Living in the trees as monkeys worked, but would you not rather be in today's age? Having your CPU at default clock speed works, but would you not rather overclock? It is worth doing, for general usage, Linux is a lot better. Try the challenge, then come back.


You make some very excellent points, and I like your methods of argument.

I am not simply "leaving well enough alone", in my opinion. I'm using a single OS that does everything I want it to do, and does them well.

Change can be good. Progress can be good. Just remember, by definition, progress isn't _always_ good. Progress and change can be positive _or_ negative.


----------



## JeremyFr

Eeeh I'm dualbooting Mac OS an Vista now, and I will say this, as of now my primary boot is now into Mac OS and not Vista anymore. I have tried several distro's of Linux and I had several hardware issues, the biggest one being that I could not get drivers for my Wacom tablet to make it work which is a must have for me.

I'm not gonna bag on Linux as it has its uses, but I gotta say out of the 3, MS,MAC,Linux I am really prefering Mac nowadays as an OS at least, cant say I like any of there hardware.

All 3 have there plus's and minus's and each person will prefer differently but yeah me personally I'm gonna stick with MS/Mac for now.


----------



## Pooping^fish

I like linux, but the complication and somewhat lack of driver support can be a good annoyance. The package managers and free software though really is nice.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Sistum Id*


Well I installed Ubuntu and I am having trouble install simple programs...like Winrar... I read some of the commands but its not working... Maybe Windows made me lazy but is there a easier way to install a exe with out having to do the terminal coding?


I've used winrar for Mac. I'm guessing it should be really similar to the Linux version, as it is a CLI program (not GUI.) If you can learn basic CLI syntax (and trust me, learning the most basic commands are not difficult at all), then you can use winrar for Linux.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot*


And hey, if it's free or cheap, I can't blame you for using it. I would use it too if it were free. Heck, it's probably even worth $25 or so. But that's about all I'd pay for it. I can't buy it for that price, so I'm using Linux. Someday, you probably will too.


I agree. I'd buy windows if it were that cheap; I think it would be worth it. But at $400 - I don't have that kind of money; sorry. That would have doubled the cost of my sig rig. So I choose to run Suse.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *stumped*


Once you set your self up with linux, There are SO many support forums where you can ask a question and get the help you need. Even in Windows there is a leraning curve. *YOU GUYS* are just used to Windows so you say *Windows is easier, why switch?* But once you get to linux, you get a whole NEW understanding about HOW your computer works and you increase your computer skills 10 fold. (ok, that might be a bit oof an exaggeration, but it is partly true.) You come to realize how unique Linux users are and how unique Linux is.


I agree with this. I feel learning some Linux has empowered me as a computer user in general. I understand more about powerful software, which makes me feel mighty


----------



## Sistum Id

Well day 3 of Ubuntu

I cant get the full features of Compiz or Compiz Fusion. I "unlocked" the manager for it and when I do the command to run(start) it the screen blinks off and on and thats it. I cant use the CCSM option cause it doesn't load. I tried updating my nvidia drivers tho the envy way and terminal way. Kinda work...I think. when i do glxgears it works and my glx is working. So now I sit at work on work computer on overclock.net with my test subject (laptop) next to me reinstalling ubuntu.

When I first started messing with compiz last night I followed some advice to uninstall compiz and reinstall just to make sure. I think I might of missed something or did something wrong or that walk tho didnt apply to me. So here we go with Round 2 of Ubuntu.

I also did some searching for a game I play and its not supported for Linux. Some people tried doing the emulation like WINE or Vmare but its way to slow and just drags and sometimes the game wont connect. They might of had a slow system so I dunno. Ill just keep trying and we will see.









Sorry if none of it makes sense, am still learning the lingo.


----------



## thenailedone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
Well day 3 of Ubuntu

I cant get the full features of Compiz or Compiz Fusion. I "unlocked" the manager for it and when I do the command to run(start) it the screen blinks off and on and thats it. I cant use the CCSM option cause it doesn't load. I tried updating my nvidia drivers tho the envy way and terminal way. Kinda work...I think. when i do glxgears it works and my glx is working. So now I sit at work on work computer on overclock.net with my test subject (laptop) next to me reinstalling ubuntu.

When I first started messing with compiz last night I followed some advice to uninstall compiz and reinstall just to make sure. I think I might of missed something or did something wrong or that walk tho didnt apply to me. So here we go with Round 2 of Ubuntu.

I also did some searching for a game I play and its not supported for Linux. Some people tried doing the emulation like WINE or Vmare but its way to slow and just drags and sometimes the game wont connect. They might of had a slow system so I dunno. Ill just keep trying and we will see.









Sorry if none of it makes sense, am still learning the lingo.

Glad to see one person that is making an attempt...

I am actually working through a free on-line course at the moment to assist me in getting a understanding of Linux a bit quicker... and it reminds me so much of my days of DOS I'm loving it...

I doubt I will ever change to Vista, XP will be my last M$ OS and the main reason is if I have to tally the cost associated with all of the OS and the other apps I want to use (Office isn't free either) and I look at the quality and the price of FOSS there is no contest... I went from console gaming to PC's because everything will be free when you Pirate but a conscious choice not to pirate some years ago has opened my eyes to the real price of the privilege to use a PC...

At the end of the day to each his own, what ever you are happy with...


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

I haven't tried to go "Linux only desktop" for a while... but... my issues with it always were:

1) Things aren't just 100% easy - example A) I go to a web site that requires flash, with Windows I get a notification, I click accept, and 3 seconds later I've got flash running successfully. I don't have to open a package manager, I don't have to resolve dependencies, it just works. Example B) I notice that my printer is having streaks in the print out and I want to run some of the manufacture cleaning options... which may or may not exist in the home grown open source driver... not to mention when I call for support they inform me that these "streaks" could be caused from my un-supported driver / opreating system. While I know this isn't the case, I still can't get my printer RMA'd because they need proof it was running on a "supported" operating system.

2) There are too many options with Linux - Sure it's great that you can change to a million different shells, etc... but simply put... it's not consistant. I don't want to learn different shells, I want one well designed shell that isn't going to change every other week. I also don't want to have 5 different poorly written tools to configure 1 option. All these options don't scale well from a support stand point. I would HATE to run the IT help desk for a large scale Linux desktop deployment.

3) Linux is not that much more secure. Neither is MacOS X. If you think it's really that much better you're only fooling yourselves. Look at how many packages your average distro has... it's crazy. Look at how often and how many patches are released... Fortunately the defaults for Linux tend to include better firewalling, etc... which help prevent most of the bugs from being exploitable, but Windows is doing the same thing now with Vista.

4) Software support... name one good tax prep software that I don't have to run in an emulator. Gaming in Linux? Sure some of it can be done, but why hastle when Windows works fine.

5) Windows isn't THAT expensive. An OEM copy of Windows Vista Ultimate will run you $190 which buys you updates until they release a new version, which typically is about every 3 - 4 years. That's less than $50 a year for a solid operating system. Is Linux cheaper - of course. Is MacOS X - Nope, they get you all the time. Also you don't have to buy a new copy of Windows everytime you replace the motherboard, you only have to do that if you replace the whole machine, as in the chasis. You affix the sticker to the chasis and it's good for whatever M/B, you put in it, sure there is a SLIGHT chance you might have to call to get it reset, but realistically even that's unlikely, and MS won't charge you for the reset anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love Linux, but only as a command line only server platform. My firewall is pure iptables from a script that I wrote and my distro has no GUI installed what so ever. What I LIKE about Unix / Linux is the command line, what I don't like is the GUI for daily use. My desktop box is Vista Ultimate 64bit and it runs GREAT. It never crashes (seriously), it's very fast, it looks pretty, it supports all the software I want to run, and it's compatible with any hardware I've thrown at it. I've run RHEL 4 (with GUI) on some dual proc Xeon servers at work, and I was surprised at how much slower the OS felt compared to my home C2D machine running Vista. I think Linux has it's place, just not as your "average user" desktop.


----------



## rocketman331

I have to say CompizFusion is awesome on my brother's Ubuntu rig. I have to agree tho as far as software goes that is why I use windows more. I use CAD programs that require DirectX and as a result i need to use Windows....and it's just easier to use a single boot on my main rig....now if only I could get dual boot on my laptop to work....


----------



## Truambitionz

About a week or two ago I tried installing Ubuntu.
The only real reason was to try Compiz
I didn't like having 4 partitions on one hardrive at all. It gives me bad energy and makes me feel cluttered. 
I tinkered with it for a day and couldn't install....anything. The update kept failing and worse of all it was having trouble giving me a viewable screen. I figured installing drivers would help.

After spending hours upon hours on Linux forums and reading articles I just couldn't get those damn Nvidia drivers installed and working. There was also a bunch of other things I needed layered with that which I felt was unnecessary.

Then the next day I tried logging into Vista again and I got all kinds of errors and random babble about missing boot files.

Linux is not for me, at least for now.

With windows I have something that I'm used to and know my way around.

Open source? I don't even understand how to operate it let alone make core changes to it.

Free? So is walking....but I'd rather drive.
But seriously, I think this is Linux's major high point but I'm not building a new computers every 3 months. I'm lucky if I have a new build every 5 years.

Stable? Vista isn't as unstable as everyone says it is. Xp was worse when it was released and SP2 seemed rock solid to me.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
Well day 3 of Ubuntu

I cant get the full features of Compiz or Compiz Fusion. I "unlocked" the manager for it and when I do the command to run(start) it the screen blinks off and on and thats it.

You might like to try Mint. IMO, it's more well-setup than Ubuntu is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
I also did some searching for a game I play and its not supported for Linux. Some people tried doing the emulation like WINE or Vmare but its way to slow and just drags and sometimes the game wont connect. They might of had a slow system so I dunno. Ill just keep trying and we will see.









Sorry if none of it makes sense, am still learning the lingo.

What game is this? Is there a Linux port?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
1) Things aren't just 100% easy - example A) I go to a web site that requires flash, with Windows I get a notification, I click accept, and 3 seconds later I've got flash running successfully. I don't have to open a package manager, I don't have to resolve dependencies, it just works.

Come, now. We call ourselves leet around here. And we hate OSs that don't let us tweak, and we hate proprietary systems because they work out of the box and can't be OCed







It wouldn't kill to learn a couple terminal commands.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
2) There are too many options with Linux - Sure it's great that you can change to a million different shells, etc... but simply put... it's not consistant. I don't want to learn different shells, I want one well designed shell that isn't going to change every other week.

All I know is BASH (and not much of it), and I'm doing fine









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
3) Linux is not that much more secure. Neither is MacOS X. If you think it's really that much better you're only fooling yourselves. Look at how many packages your average distro has... it's crazy. Look at how often and how many patches are released... Fortunately the defaults for Linux tend to include better firewalling, etc... which help prevent most of the bugs from being exploitable, but Windows is doing the same thing now with Vista.

Linux and OSX and Unix in general ARE more secure than windows...

Frequent updates are a good thing.

Windows stealth-updates users' systems, so no one can really say what's going on with them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
5) Windows isn't THAT expensive. *An OEM copy of Windows Vista Ultimate will run you $190* which buys you updates until they release a new version, which typically is about every 3 - 4 years. That's less than $50 a year for a solid operating system. Is Linux cheaper - of course. Is MacOS X - Nope, they get you all the time. *Also you don't have to buy a new copy of Windows everytime you replace the motherboard, you only have to do that if you replace the whole machine, as in the chasis.* You affix the sticker to the chasis and it's good for whatever M/B, you put in it, sure there is a SLIGHT chance you might have to call to get it reset, but realistically even that's unlikely, and MS won't charge you for the reset anyway.

Wrong-O! This is false information; do not listen to this!

Vista IS $400. You think they would make it that easy?

If you want one license for one machine EVER, an OEM will cost you $190ish. But the key will die with your motherboard. Once the warranty on the board is up and it dies and you can't get it fixed, $190 also dies.

If you want to be able to move the license to another motherboard, you can buy that kind (retail) for $400. But my house has 5 computers... And I don't have $2000 to give to m$.

m$ OEM policy clarification: http://www.overclock.net/windows/156...ification.html

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
I think Linux has it's place, just not as your "average user" desktop.

I have to agree that for the average joe, Linux cannot become mainstream. However on a leet computer forum like OCN, there should be no problem with people learning Linux.


----------



## Sistum Id

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Truambitionz* 
About a week or two ago I tried installing Ubuntu.
The only real reason was to try Compiz
I didn't like having 4 partitions on one hardrive at all. It gives me bad energy and makes me feel cluttered.
I tinkered with it for a day and couldn't install....anything. The update kept failing and worse of all it was having trouble giving me a viewable screen. I figured installing drivers would help.

After spending hours upon hours on Linux forums and reading articles I just couldn't get those damn Nvidia drivers installed and working. There was also a bunch of other things I needed layered with that which I felt was unnecessary.

Then the next day I tried logging into Vista again and I got all kinds of errors and random babble about missing boot files.

Linux is not for me, at least for now.

With windows I have something that I'm used to and know my way around.

Open source? I don't even understand how to operate it let alone make core changes to it.

Free? So is walking....but I'd rather drive.
But seriously, I think this is Linux's major high point but I'm not building a new computers every 3 months. I'm lucky if I have a new build every 5 years.

Stable? Vista isn't as unstable as everyone says it is. Xp was worse when it was released and SP2 seemed rock solid to me.

Well I have spent hours and hours now trying to work Compiz. I cant get GLX enabled. I cant install nvidia drivers. I to have read blogs and pages of people saying this works. Compiz Fusion, Emerald stuff, Beryl, Compiz, GLX XGL, Gusty, Fiesty, it goes on and on. I just learned Compiz and Compiz Fusion are different. I didnt realize XGL and GLX. Now I installed Ubuntu on a fresh hdd and now am having trouble getting the sound drivers in.

If i cant get this Compiz running with GLX tonight or tomorrow night. Thats it, i give up.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 

What game is this? Is there a Linux port?.

Its called Rappelz and as far as I know...there is no Linux port.


----------



## The_Rocker

The only reason every linux enthusiast hates Windows is because its made my Microsoft which choke the market and crush the little guys and therefore use majority % to overule any competition. And if they still loose, they throw money at the problem.


----------



## stanrc

I mainly use windows (xp) and have dabbled in linux a few times (FC6, Ubuntu, and a handful of other random distros) but yet I still use windows. And it comes down to one thing, its what I'm comfortable with. I know if I break something in windows, I know how to fix it. Not the case in Linux. Of course I could take the time to learn it, but who has time for that anymore? And yes there are more than enough online guides for Linux, but I don't want to search the net every time I want to do something new in Linux or every time I break something in Linux.


----------



## Quasimojo

First off, let me say that I've installed and run Linux *many* times - typically for its server apps (Unreal, Neverwinter Nights, Apache, etc.), but I have tried on more than one occasion to give the desktop GUI's a go. Of all the distros, Gentoo was my favorite. It's not the best option for Linux n00bs like myself, but I really like the Portage package management system, and the ability to install even a desktop GUI on a very lean configuration (no more apps or other memory consuming features than I absolutely needed - take a note here, Microsoft) was a big plus.

However, and this applies to just about every distro I tried, including the 'buntu's, here are the main reasons I just couldn't stick with it:

1) Driver support. Sad to say, but while the vast majority of hardware sold in the last several years, regardless of manufacturer, has Windows drivers available, Linux users have to rely on someone having at some point written a suitable driver for Linux. More often than not, the hardward manufacturers do *not* provide Linux drivers, and this support must come from the Linux community. Network adapters are a big problem here. I have a wireless PCMCIA NIC that works fine in Windows, but the only distro I have been able to get it set up in has been Ubuntu and Xubuntu.

2) Odd design elements. I'm just talking about the way things work as compared to what has proven effective in other OS's. For example, I have Xubuntu on an old Compaq laptop right now. This thread prompted me to fire it up and play around with it for a bit last night. I went into display properties to check the resolution I was running, and in the list of all the available resolutions, it had "Default" selected. Not 1024x768, not 800x600, but "Default". I had to bounce around to different resolutions, applying them each in turn, to find the one that matched what it was set to to even determine the current resolution. It did not show the specific current resolution settings. There was no way to determine which refresh rate it was set to (well, I guess I could have done some research and figured out which config file to fire up in a text editor and sift through to find it, but come on...). This is one of those things that just makes you scratch your head and wonder what the OS devs were thinking. I mean, I agree that it shouldn't just copy the functionality of Windows, but in many cases they try to be different to a fault, and *that* is a turn-off.

3) Acronyms and otherwise cryptic app names. Seriously. I get the names like gimp that form an actual word that people can associate with the application, but Linux application devs need to step out of their C++ mindset when they give their product a name. A couple of examples: hsqldb and PyQt. Here's a tip, devs: used real words and use capitalization. Otherwise it just looks like something some hack threw together with little to no testing, much less thought-out design goals...which in reality pretty much describes half of what the typical user will find out there. This is, unfortunately, one of the undesirable side-effects of the open source model. I love that there are so many people contributing apps and drivers to the Linux community. I hate that so many have little incentive to make their offerings as accessible and functional as the commercial offerings.

4) Not a show-stopper by any means, but this has always bugged me in Linux GUI's. My mouse never seems to have a very high resolution. The mouse cursor always seems unresponsive and laggy. Maybe there is a way to improve that, but that's one of those things that I really shouldn't have to bother with.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


What game is this? Is there a Linux port?


Aww, come on. You knew there was a better than 50/50 chance that the answer to that question is No.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Come, now. We call ourselves leet around here. And we hate OSs that don't let us tweak, and we hate proprietary systems because they work out of the box and can't be OCed







It wouldn't kill to learn a couple terminal commands.


Terminal commands don't bother me in the least. However, one of the biggest reasons people use a GUI desktop is to avoid them. Add to that the fact that even being able to determine the commands needed and how to use them is a real pain sometimes.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Windows stealth-updates users' systems, so no one can really say what's going on with them.


Actually, Windows only updates my system when I want it to do so. I can read the update notes to determine what it's going to do if I choose to, but I typically don't. I don't really care. Odds are pretty good that whatever they are updating is a good thing. /shrug

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Wrong-O! This is false information; do not listen to this!

Vista IS $400. You think they would make it that easy?

If you want one license for one machine EVER, an OEM will cost you $190ish. But the key will die with your motherboard. Once the warranty on the board is up and it dies and you can't get it fixed, $190 also dies.

If you want to be able to move the license to another motherboard, you can buy that kind (retail) for $400. But my house has 5 computers... And I don't have $2000 to give to m$.

m$ OEM policy clarification: http://www.overclock.net/windows/156...ification.html


This is interesting. I've never run into it myself, but I have read about others being able to transfer their OEM OS to a new machine when their motherboard failed. I'd be interested to hear from anyone here who has had any luck in that regard. I understand that their official policy is one license for one machine, but I always thought they were a bit vague (perhaps even overly-restrictive) in the details, just to give them some room to bend in the interests of the paying customer as they see fit.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I have to agree that for the average joe, Linux cannot become mainstream. However on a leet computer forum like OCN, there should be no problem with people learning Linux.


Linux as a whole has taken some *huge* steps toward becoming more mainstream accessible over the years, but at this point, from my own experience, it's not there yet. It remains an enthusiast's endeavor...which of course describes the OCN community pretty well, so I *do* continue to take the periodic stab at it. I just wish it weren't so unnecessarily esoteric in so many regards.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

I stand corrected on the motherboard / license issue... but realistically... does anyone here believe that if you have a computer with a genuine Microsoft Sticker on it, that MS is going to sue you / put you in jail because you upgraded the MB? Seriously, MS doesn't care... what they would be worried about are large corps doing it as policy.

On the security front the only advantage that Mac, Linux, and the other Unix flavors have is that they aren't nearly as popular. Windows has greater than 90% of the market share, Apple somewhere around 5 - 7%... why would anyone looking to write viruses / malware / exploits want to shoot for the 5% of the market share when they can code for 90%? A prime example of "things not being right" was discovered with Solaris 10 about a year ago, all you had to do to get root on a box was telnet to it with a few parameters set, and presto you were in. Solaris 10 had been on the market for a WHILE with that.... Linux and Mac I'm sure are no differnent, these vulnerablities are there waiting to be found. Microsoft is under the microscope for EVERYTHING. Look at how long it too Apple to release a fix for the latest quicktime exploit... pretty lame really. Linux is usally pretty quick, the problem is the number of them. Not to mention it's a real pain in a corperate environment where you need change windows and testing prior to deploying patches. Microsoft consistently turns around fixes in record time, does it on a predictible schedule, documents the updates fairly well, and rarely makes anyone mad in the process.

Like I said, I love Linux / Unix... but only for servers and with no GUI. I don't like having a million different GUI options, and I really don't want a hastle to troubleshoot something just because I decided that I wanted watch a .mov format instead of a .avi. Linux many times just makes the simple things more difficult than they should be, it's not that I can't figure it out, and it's not that I haven't figured it out in the past... it's that when I want to get things done... Windows is there, and works everytime. In the past 10 years of running NT 4.0 through Vista, I've never had the operating system fail on me, I've never had to reinstall, and it's always been there ready to work when I was. Linux would be too, but who wants to fight with it every time you try to get something done?


----------



## thenailedone

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


I stand corrected on the motherboard / license issue... but realistically... does anyone here believe that if you have a computer with a genuine Microsoft Sticker on it, that MS is going to sue you / put you in jail because you upgraded the MB? Seriously, MS doesn't care... what they would be worried about are large corps doing it as policy.


Dear Brian,

We have noticed that you are using your copy of Vista on a "different machine" and you have to pay for a new license. Vista will not run on this machine without a valid license... please pay up!

Sincerely
Uncle Bill.

You won't go to jail but your copy of Vista won't work either...


----------



## Quasimojo

With regard to security, I found an interesting article comparing Windows and Mac OS. It might surprise you...

http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?new...HVzaWFzdCwsLDE


----------



## xstasy

Linux is teh ****z. lol


----------



## Truambitionz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
Well I have spent hours and hours now trying to work Compiz. I cant get GLX enabled. I cant install nvidia drivers. I to have read blogs and pages of people saying this works. Compiz Fusion, Emerald stuff, Beryl, Compiz, GLX XGL, Gusty, Fiesty, it goes on and on. I just learned Compiz and Compiz Fusion are different. I didnt realize XGL and GLX. Now I installed Ubuntu on a fresh hdd and now am having trouble getting the sound drivers in.

If i cant get this Compiz running with GLX tonight or tomorrow night. Thats it, i give up.


Thats pretty much what happened to me. After a while you just loose hope.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stanrc* 
I mainly use windows (xp) and have dabbled in linux a few times (FC6, Ubuntu, and a handful of other random distros) but yet I still use windows. And it comes down to one thing, its what I'm comfortable with. I know if I break something in windows, I know how to fix it. Not the case in Linux. Of course I could take the time to learn it, but who has time for that anymore? And yes there are more than enough online guides for Linux, but I don't want to search the net every time I want to do something new in Linux or every time I break something in Linux.

Exactly!


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

I built my parents a computer for Christmas. I installed Kubuntu Gutsy Gibbon (because it's what I use and I can walk them through things more easily). I plugged in the monitor, keyboard, mouse. I gave them each a 20 minute tutorial.

Dad said, "Well, I don't think it will work for work, too many people use windows. But this is definitely much easier to understand than windows..." We then tried loading his powerpoint presentations and various documents from CD's onto Kubuntu. They loaded faster and seemed to work perfectly well. Word documents displayed flawlessly. Powerpoint worked, but Dad realized it would take some getting used to as the key commands seemed to be different from what he was used to. I told him about a couple of little things that aren't compatible with powerpoint and Excel and he said that they happen once in a blue moon and he has his laptop for backup in those cases anyway. Dad went to his email and pulled up a pdf. He said, "On our old machine, I started the download, made coffee, went to the bathroom, came back, and it wasn't up yet." We had it downloaded within 20 seconds and displayed in kpdf.

Mom said, "Wow does that go fast." And she really likes the idea of being able to DL software from the package manager. Seaching the net to find virus-free freeware is a little beyond what she is comfortable doing. We stuck her thumbdrive into the computer. She was able to pull up Corel Wordperfect documents, properly formatted and everything. Even Microsoft Word wasn't able to do that.

The only thing I didn't do was try to install the printer/scanner. Admittedly, that might be a challenge and it wasn't the kind of thing I wanted to fiddle with on Christmas day, so I unhooked my new computer and left them to their old one until I can get around to coming over there and transferring all their files to the new computer.

Linux FTW!!!!


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

I also built a computer for my sister. She lives out in CA. I installed Linux Mint on hers because it seems to be more feature-rich out of the box.

I used Knotes to put stickies all over her computer desktop, explaining how to do different things (DL programs, change the background, use the screen saver, etc).

She is a complainer by nature. Her first question to me was, "So Linux is basically like Windows except for people who hate Bill Gates, right?" LOL

I told her to get the computer running, use it for a few weeks, if there is no problem and she doesn't get it, then just go buy windows and forgeddaboudit.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot*


I built my parents a computer for Christmas. I installed Kubuntu Gutsy Gibbon (because it's what I use and I can walk them through things more easily). I plugged in the monitor, keyboard, mouse. I gave them each a 20 minute tutorial.

Mom said, "Wow does that go fast." And she really likes the idea of being able to DL software from the package manager. Seaching the net to find virus-free freeware is a little beyond what she is comfortable doing. We stuck her thumbdrive into the computer. She was able to pull up Corel Wordperfect documents, properly formatted and everything. Even Microsoft Word wasn't able to do that.


Of course it's faster... you just built a new computer. Who has ever built a new computer and said "Wow, my 5 year old P2 was faster than this, I think I'll go back to that" Want a real comparison? Set that same computer up to dual boot, put a counter that records day / time each time it's started up. I'd be willing to bet the Windows would get more hits. (and due to reboots )


----------



## airbozo

Like tools, there is an OS that is the right tool for the job. For gaming, nothing beats windows. "." Unless there is some incentive for developers to code games for linux, it is not going to happen (much) in the near future. The main reason games are coded for windows is the user base. Face it, there are just more windows boxes out there. The second reason that extremely few games are released for linux, is the API's. Why spend the extra time and money to create all the extra bits, when not many people will purchase it. If M$ ever let DX code into the open source community I suspect there will be more titles ported to linux. Not going to happen. And although WINE is on track, it still has issues. Not for me thanks!

For servers, there is nothing better or faster than a stage1 Gentoo linux build. The bits are built specific to the hardware you are installing on so there is less fluff to go through for system calls and loading. Fast baby fast! _BUT_ unless you know somewhat about what you are doing, you will either give up or be locked in a padded cell for weeks.

Ubuntu is nice for the casual linux user and this includes most people that just want to browse the web and create and read documents. Everything XP does in this area (or vista), is faster and more secure in linux. There will be some portability issues in trying to open documents created in Open Office with M$ Office. That is M$'s fault for intentionally breaking the open document protocol.

Security? The best OS for that is IRIX. No question. _BUT_ you have to own a piece of SGI hardware for that and that is way off topic.

Stability goes hands down to linux over windows. There are hundreds of linux systems running 24/7 365 for several years without so much as a reboot. I have never heard or seen of that with _any_ version of Windows.

Privacy? Linux. Vista is the worst here because of all the DRM crap built into the OS. Plus because of my experience with M$, I will wait until at least vista SP2 before even letting the disk close to my computer. Then I will be closing down several ports on my hardware firewall to prevent vista from sending any info out without my ok.

My setup;

Gaming rig - XP-SP2. NO personal info ever typed onto the system, except my gamer info but so what if someone steals that.

General use rig - Gentoo linux stage 1. For any personal stuff (online banking, stock stuff, email, etc), web server, mail server, document creation/conversion, etc.

Basically I only use windows to frag all your silly asses to dirt...

Where I work we sell 10x the number of RedHat licenses as we do windows. Then, most of the windows licenses are for Server 2003 x64 to run a specific application only offered in windows.

Just my humble opinion.


----------



## Sistum Id

Ok so after the 3rd install of Ubuntu I finally got Compiz running and the 3d cube. But since I relized that Compiz and Compiz Fusion are two different things. My question is this...whats the easiest way to install Compiz Fusion?


----------



## Namrac

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Choggs396* 
If I have to boot into Windows for games, I'll be in Windows for most of the time I'm using my computer anyway. The rest? Emails, OCN, and typing papers for school using MS Word. Why would I switch to Linux for that?

No offense, and I'm not trying to flame, but Vista works great for what I do and the majority of what others do. So I think I'll stick with a single OS that does everything I need.

Exactly. I have been running Linux while I've had problems with Vista, and I like using it, and things like Compiz are neat, but Windows is easier for doing what I do, and I can game in Windows, while I can't in Linux. Although, I will say, installing Linux Mint last week was by far the easiest linux install I've ever done, most of the drivers were loaded automatically. =D


----------



## FrankenPC

The two things I REALLY dislike about UNIX (Linux/AIX/SCO/Solaris you name it)

1) Documentation for beginners is non-existent. Trying to find how to do anything is nearly impossible. If it weren't for the UNIX fan boys out there showboating on the forums, UNIX would be nowhere right now.

2) The naming conventions for EVERYTHING come from the Tome of Evil Acronyms. For some bizarre reason, everyone in the UNIX community can't come up with a decent name for anything. From the deployment packages, the software revisions, to the applications and utilities themselves.

Let's face it, UNIX is good. It's VERY good. It's also been around since the late 60's. So, maybe it's time to grow up and get some decent documentation and naming conventions.


----------



## thenailedone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot* 
She is a complainer by nature. Her first question to me was, "So Linux is basically like Windows except for people who hate Bill Gates, right?" LOL

I lol'ed... sigged


----------



## voice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FrankenPC* 
The two things I REALLY dislike about UNIX (Linux/AIX/SCO/Solaris you name it)

1) Documentation for beginners is non-existent. Trying to find how to do anything is nearly impossible. If it weren't for the UNIX fan boys out there showboating on the forums, UNIX would be nowhere right now.

2) The naming conventions for EVERYTHING come from the Tome of Evil Acronyms. For some bizarre reason, everyone in the UNIX community can't come up with a decent name for anything. From the deployment packages, the software revisions, to the applications and utilities themselves.

Let's face it, UNIX is good. It's VERY good. It's also been around since the late 60's. So, maybe it's time to grow up and get some decent documentation and naming conventions.

*"Documentation for beginners is non-existent."*

No it isn't. The Ubuntu forums even have a section for absolute beginners. Look: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=73

*"For some bizarre reason, everyone in the UNIX community can't come up with a decent name for anything. From the deployment packages, the software revisions, to the applications and utilities themselves."*

You're moaning about using UNIX because of the names given to distros, programs etc.? Seriously is that all you can find, and note that i use this term very lightly, "wrong" with using linux/any unix operating system?

Maybe it's time *you* grew up.









On a different note, I like this thread and I like the OP. I'm actually downloading Ubuntu right now to try it out. My brother uses Kubutu but I've never used it or linux before and I honestly believe that if it wasn't for games I wouldn't even be using Windows. Still, I'll try to take you up on that challenge, lattyware, and try Linux for myself.









Voice.


----------



## thenailedone

Cool voice...

But it is lattyware's challenge... all I can say is if you really want to give it a good go you will be pleasantly surprised...


----------



## voice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thenailedone* 
Cool voice...

But it is lattyware's challenge... all I can say is if you really want to give it a good go you will be pleasantly surprised...

Oops! Hehe, just changed it now. I thought it was you because your avatars are similar. *Slaps forehead*

It seems pretty good so far, although I'm only running it through CD. Some things are definitely different, but not in a bad way.

I will keep using it and see how it goes.


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Of course it's faster... you just built a new computer. Who has ever built a new computer and said "Wow, my 5 year old P2 was faster than this, I think I'll go back to that" Want a real comparison? Set that same computer up to dual boot, put a counter that records day / time each time it's started up. I'd be willing to bet the Windows would get more hits. (and due to reboots )

Of course windows will be started up more. You need to do that to a Windows machine at least once every couple of days with multiple users or else things get really sluggish and troublesome. My linux machine hasn't been restarted in over a month. I keep installing and deinstalling software packages and the thing NEVER yet has asked me for a restart. It just keeps chugging along as fast as it was when I started.

And really, do YOU want to explain to my mother how to defrag a computer and when to do it?

And, if I really want them to never use windows, all I have to do is stop answering my phone. A week of the scary anti-virus messages about possible intrusions and trojans and worms (all things they barely understand) will get them switched to Linux immediately if I'm not available to explain to them what those things mean...

But anyway, when you're done explaining what all the weird AV messages mean, you can explain to them why the procedure to install programs and the procedure to deinstall them are totally different on Windows (with Linux, you just uncheck the same box you originally checked to install it).

And sure the new computer is faster. It blows the doors off the old one. It even blows the door off a one year old Windows computer with nearly identical specs. Now, you might say that's because the windows computer needs to be tweaked. Go ahead and explain to my mother how to "tweak" a computer...

The more I get into modern-GUI Linux, the more I feel like Windows is the OS for people who don't have a life and love rooting through the system "fixing things". Since I got it up and running, I haven't accessed the Linux version of the "control panel" in over 2 months. How many of you Windows users can say that?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Oh, boy. This is going to be fun. Here we go:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
Well I have spent hours and hours now trying to work Compiz. I cant get GLX enabled. I cant install nvidia drivers. I to have read blogs and pages of people saying this works. Compiz Fusion, Emerald stuff, Beryl, Compiz, GLX XGL, Gusty, Fiesty, it goes on and on. I just learned Compiz and Compiz Fusion are different. I didnt realize XGL and GLX. Now I installed Ubuntu on a fresh hdd and now am having trouble getting the sound drivers in.

I'll agree there. There are so many possibilities in setups and distros and software and hardware that it's hard to find your exact case somewhere online and get whatever it is you need working.

I've had no success in getting Compiz working in Suse yet, and I've visited a good number of sites.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
If i cant get this Compiz running with GLX tonight or tomorrow night. Thats it, i give up.

However, for me anyway, there's more to Linux than the special effects. The special effects are NICE, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The_Rocker* 
The only reason every linux enthusiast hates Windows is because its made my Microsoft ...

Don't make broad sweeping statements like that. There is a VERY good chance that it's not true, which that particular statement isn't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
1) Driver support.

For wireless, I find it extremely difficult to get working in Linux. Wired usually works out of the box, though. For other regular stuff, there are usually built-in drivers, like sound, mice, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
I went into display properties to check the resolution I was running, and in the list of all the available resolutions, it had "Default" selected. Not 1024x768, not 800x600, but "Default". I had to bounce around to different resolutions, applying them each in turn, to find the one that matched what it was set to to even determine the current resolution.

I agree. Stupid things like that need to be changed if Linux is to take a bigger market share. I find it absurd that the supposed "easy" distro, Ubuntu (and its variants), doesn't support 1280x1024 (or any "odd/WS" res for that matter) out of the box. And it seems like such an easy thing they could change before putting the ISOs out for download...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
3)Here's a tip, devs: used real words and use capitalization. Otherwise it just looks like something some hack threw together with little to no testing, much less thought-out design goals...which in reality pretty much describes half of what the typical user will find out there.

Unfortunately, Linux/Unix was designed for power, NOT for ease of use. That's one big thing that pushes users away. Just look at the file system. It's not set up all nicely like it is in windows. It's designed for power (which I believe should draw us here on OCN in, since we bash the OS that makes everything so easy to use and its hardware that can't be OCed.)

There is a reason for the capitalization and brevity of program names, such as cp and mv. First, they're lowercase for the reason that if you had to type a bunch of commands (since Unix is primarily CLI), would you want to hit "shift" all the time? And wouldn't you rather type "cp" instead of "Copy?"

How annoying would that be? "Copy /Home/User/Desktop/File.ext /Usr/Local/File.ext" That would suck!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
4) Not a show-stopper by any means, but this has always bugged me in Linux GUI's. My mouse never seems to have a very high resolution.

You can change: The resolution, the speed/sens, the acceleration and all that in the control panel









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
Aww, come on. You knew there was a better than 50/50 chance that the answer to that question is No.

So the hell what? If I there is the possibility that I can help, I'll do it. What difference should it make whether or not there's a high probability of there being a port?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
Terminal commands don't bother me in the least. However, one of the biggest reasons people use a GUI desktop is to avoid them. Add to that the fact that even being able to determine the commands needed and how to use them is a real pain sometimes.

Yeah, I realize that. This is the reason I specifically laid out that we here on OCN should be able to learn Linux. I stated that I do not expect the average joe to do so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
Actually, Windows only updates my system when I want it to do so.

I take it you haven't heard about windows stealth-updating users' systems, then, whether or not you have windows updates turned off.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
This is interesting. I've never run into it myself, but I have read about others being able to transfer their OEM OS to a new machine when their motherboard failed.

If the motherboard fails, then you are allowed your key to work on that new motherboard. But you cannot get a new motherboard (an upgrade or anything) and tell them "my crap broke, new key plz?" That's against the m$ EULA.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
I understand that their official policy is one license for one machine, but I always thought they were a bit vague (perhaps even overly-restrictive) in the details, just to give them some room to bend in the interests of the paying customer as they see fit.

If it's retail, you buy that one key and you can install it on any computers and activate it, as long as it's only activated on ONE computer at a time.

If you have an OEM key, your key is married to your motherboard. It cannot divorce it and remarry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
Linux as a whole has taken some *huge* steps toward becoming more mainstream accessible over the years, but at this point, from my own experience, it's not there yet. It remains an enthusiast's endeavor...which of course describes the OCN community pretty well, so I *do* continue to take the periodic stab at it. I just wish it weren't so unnecessarily esoteric in so many regards.

I agree with that. Linux is making its way toward being more user-friendly. But at this point in time, it isn't ready for the average joe. I do believe, however, that it has gotten to the point where it could be a suitable OS for leet people like us on OCN. At least you get to say you've tried it.

Oh, and on a side note (talking to everyone in general, no one specific): don't bash on other OSs for being user-friendly and not customizable and then say that you like windows because it's easy to use









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
I stand corrected on the motherboard / license issue... but realistically... does anyone here believe that if you have a computer with a genuine Microsoft Sticker on it, that MS is going to sue you / put you in jail because you upgraded the MB? Seriously, MS doesn't care... what they would be worried about are large corps doing it as policy.

You probably can get away with it. But that doesn't stop it from being illegal. Just like the people saying that using OSX on a PC isn't illegal: yeah, you might not get caught, but that doesn't stop it from being wrong. Apple and microsoft have the right to choose how they want their products sold, and if you break those terms, then you're stealing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
On the security front the only advantage that Mac, Linux, and the other Unix flavors have is that they aren't nearly as popular.

Then you're just tricking yourself and trying to justify your purchase.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
With regard to security, I found an interesting article comparing Windows and Mac OS. It might surprise you...

http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?new...HVzaWFzdCwsLDE

Ou purposefully put out a skewed test. If you can't see from the beginning that his test favored one OS over the other, then you're taking the blue pill.

http://www.overclock.net/software-ne...-security.html

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FrankenPC* 
The two things I REALLY dislike about UNIX (Linux/AIX/SCO/Solaris you name it)

1) Documentation for beginners is non-existent. Trying to find how to do anything is nearly impossible. If it weren't for the UNIX fan boys out there showboating on the forums, UNIX would be nowhere right now.

Let me ask, then: where do you find all your "documentation" for windows? As a beginner, where would one find documentation for installing something in windows? For defragging? Tweaking the registry? Learning about msconfig? Overclocking (GPUs)? Does windows have that all figured out for you already?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FrankenPC* 
2) The naming conventions for EVERYTHING come from the Tome of Evil Acronyms. For some bizarre reason, everyone in the UNIX community can't come up with a decent name for anything. From the deployment packages, the software revisions, to the applications and utilities themselves.

You could have at least provided an example. I really don't know to what exactly you are referring. If you mean like X and KDE and GNOME and stuff: did you really expect them to be named "DOS" and "explorer?" And the Panel to be called the "start menu?" No, it's different. Just because they're not what you're used to doesn't mean that they're absurd.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FrankenPC* 
So, maybe it's time to grow up and get some decent documentation and naming conventions.

For noobs wanting to learn, there are books and many ways to learn. I've gotten books and stuff myself, and I'm on my journey to learning. For leet people like us on OCN, there are always ways of finding out how to do things; that's what we DO. Maybe I'm on the wrong forum site if everyone around me is complaining that things aren't easy enough... lol


----------



## Sistum Id

Uhh The Hundred Gunner...your quotes are a little off...I know half the stuff that you have quoted for me wasn't said by me... Just heads up.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
Uhh The Hundred Gunner...your quotes are a little off...I know half the stuff that you have quoted for me wasn't said by me... Just heads up.

Thanks. Fixed, I think.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot* 
Of course windows will be started up more. You need to do that to a Windows machine at least once every couple of days with multiple users or else things get really sluggish and troublesome. My linux machine hasn't been restarted in over a month. I keep installing and deinstalling software packages and the thing NEVER yet has asked me for a restart. It just keeps chugging along as fast as it was when I started.

And really, do YOU want to explain to my mother how to defrag a computer and when to do it?

And, if I really want them to never use windows, all I have to do is stop answering my phone. A week of the scary anti-virus messages about possible intrusions and trojans and worms (all things they barely understand) will get them switched to Linux immediately if I'm not available to explain to them what those things mean...

But anyway, when you're done explaining what all the weird AV messages mean, you can explain to them why the procedure to install programs and the procedure to deinstall them are totally different on Windows (with Linux, you just uncheck the same box you originally checked to install it).

And sure the new computer is faster. It blows the doors off the old one. It even blows the door off a one year old Windows computer with nearly identical specs. Now, you might say that's because the windows computer needs to be tweaked. Go ahead and explain to my mother how to "tweak" a computer...

The more I get into modern-GUI Linux, the more I feel like Windows is the OS for people who don't have a life and love rooting through the system "fixing things". Since I got it up and running, I haven't accessed the Linux version of the "control panel" in over 2 months. How many of you Windows users can say that?

Everyone keeps mentioning defrag... Vista does it automatically now, XP hardly ever needed if for average use either... lord knows I probably only ran it twice during the 4-5 years that my copy of XP was up, and my XP box wasn't a dog.

If you stopped answering your phone, your parents would simply ask someone else who isn't trying to push their own agenda about operating systems and they would be perfectly happy running Windows. I'm not saying DON'T run Linux... just saying for the vast majority of people it's a wasted effort, you really aren't gaining much if anything.

I'd love to see actual start up times compared between Linux and Vista as well as performance testing of software that's been ported to both. In my experience Vista "seemed" faster.

Also if you don't want the stupid AV messages, don't install crap AV software (Norton is about the worest ever), and don't download garbage with viruses. You CAN get a virus and malware on Linux too... don't forget that.

Either way, you guys have convinced me to take the challenge (again) since I haven't really played with a Linux desktop in years. (I do run it command line though) I've ordered a brand new 300gig drive to slap in my old Athlon XP 2100+ system with 1 gig of ram. So... give me the "best" distro to play with... thus far it's sounding like Ubuntu is probably up there. In the past I've always gone Red Hat or Fedora and feel 100% comfortable working with Solaris or Fedora with only the command line.

Here is what I want:

1) Good performance on Athlon XP 2100+ with 1 gig of memory

2) Must be "pretty"

3) Must be easy and make sense, I can deal with hard, but I don't want to.

4) Must out of the box support my hardware. I DO NOT want to compile drivers. When I mean support, I want to plug in my USB Canon printer and it start working. I do have a 22 inch wide screen monitor, I saw someone mention that some distros don't deal with that well natively.

5) Must have a good package manager, I don't want to deal with depenencies. I want updates automatic and non-intrusive.

So, what distro gets me closest to the above? I'll d/l and install it once my new HD gets in and let you guys know what I think. Obviously I can't do perf testing between Vista and this new linux box as they will be on different hardware.


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo*
Aww, come on. You knew there was a better than 50/50 chance that the answer to that question is No.

So the hell what? If I there is the possibility that I can help, I'll do it. What difference should it make whether or not there's a high probability of there being a port?

Easy there, Sparky. Your reply of "is there a Linux port?" would lead one to think you were proposing a potentially obvious solution to the problem that you felt the poster may have overlooked, which just struck me as a real longshot. No offense was intended.

I really don't mean to come off sounding like I'm bashing (no pun intended) Linux. I really like it for a lot of reasons. I merely meant to point out the significant reasons why I and many others haven't been able to make the full-time jump. It's just not an option at this point.

I still very much pull for Linux to come around, and will continue to use it as an enthusiast.


----------



## FrankenPC

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Oh, boy. This is going to be fun. Here we go:

I'll agree there. There are so many possibilities in setups and distros and software and hardware that it's hard to find your exact case somewhere online and get whatever it is you need working.

I've had no success in getting Compiz working in Suse yet, and I've visited a good number of sites.

However, for me anyway, there's more to Linux than the special effects. The special effects are NICE, though.

Don't make broad sweeping statements like that. There is a VERY good chance that it's not true, which that particular statement isn't.

For wireless, I find it extremely difficult to get working in Linux. Wired usually works out of the box, though. For other regular stuff, there are usually built-in drivers, like sound, mice, etc.

I agree. Stupid things like that need to be changed if Linux is to take a bigger market share. I find it absurd that the supposed "easy" distro, Ubuntu (and its variants), doesn't support 1280x1024 (or any "odd/WS" res for that matter) out of the box. And it seems like such an easy thing they could change before putting the ISOs out for download...

Unfortunately, Linux/Unix was designed for power, NOT for ease of use. That's one big thing that pushes users away. Just look at the file system. It's not set up all nicely like it is in windows. It's designed for power (which I believe should draw us here on OCN in, since we bash the OS that makes everything so easy to use and its hardware that can't be OCed.)

There is a reason for the capitalization and brevity of program names, such as cp and mv. First, they're lowercase for the reason that if you had to type a bunch of commands (since Unix is primarily CLI), would you want to hit "shift" all the time? And wouldn't you rather type "cp" instead of "Copy?"

How annoying would that be? "Copy /Home/User/Desktop/File.ext /Usr/Local/File.ext" That would suck!

You can change: The resolution, the speed/sens, the acceleration and all that in the control panel









So the hell what? If I there is the possibility that I can help, I'll do it. What difference should it make whether or not there's a high probability of there being a port?

Yeah, I realize that. This is the reason I specifically laid out that we here on OCN should be able to learn Linux. I stated that I do not expect the average joe to do so.

I take it you haven't heard about windows stealth-updating users' systems, then, whether or not you have windows updates turned off.

If the motherboard fails, then you are allowed your key to work on that new motherboard. But you cannot get a new motherboard (an upgrade or anything) and tell them "my crap broke, new key plz?" That's against the m$ EULA.

If it's retail, you buy that one key and you can install it on any computers and activate it, as long as it's only activated on ONE computer at a time.

If you have an OEM key, your key is married to your motherboard. It cannot divorce it and remarry.

I agree with that. Linux is making its way toward being more user-friendly. But at this point in time, it isn't ready for the average joe. I do believe, however, that it has gotten to the point where it could be a suitable OS for leet people like us on OCN. At least you get to say you've tried it.

Oh, and on a side note (talking to everyone in general, no one specific): don't bash on other OSs for being user-friendly and not customizable and then say that you like windows because it's easy to use









You probably can get away with it. But that doesn't stop it from being illegal. Just like the people saying that using OSX on a PC isn't illegal: yeah, you might not get caught, but that doesn't stop it from being wrong. Apple and microsoft have the right to choose how they want their products sold, and if you break those terms, then you're stealing.

Then you're just tricking yourself and trying to justify your purchase.

Ou purposefully put out a skewed test. If you can't see from the beginning that his test favored one OS over the other, then you're taking the blue pill.

http://www.overclock.net/software-ne...-security.html

Let me ask, then: where do you find all your "documentation" for windows? As a beginner, where would one find documentation for installing something in windows? For defragging? Tweaking the registry? Learning about msconfig? Overclocking (GPUs)? Does windows have that all figured out for you already?

You could have at least provided an example. I really don't know to what exactly you are referring. If you mean like X and KDE and GNOME and stuff: did you really expect them to be named "DOS" and "explorer?" And the Panel to be called the "start menu?" No, it's different. Just because they're not what you're used to doesn't mean that they're absurd.

For noobs wanting to learn, there are books and many ways to learn. I've gotten books and stuff myself, and I'm on my journey to learning. For leet people like us on OCN, there are always ways of finding out how to do things; that's what we DO. Maybe I'm on the wrong forum site if everyone around me is complaining that things aren't easy enough... lol


Your quoting skills are impressive. Seriously. I love your posts.

If people who love UNIX (in this case, Linux) want world wide adoption, then you will NEED end-user adoption. So far, all I see, day in and day out, is the same old thing: technical elitism. Conversion of common dialect into short-speak and acronyms. End-users will never feel at home with that mentality. You can argue all day long with me on this aspect, but the truth is the truth. UNIX is NOT approachable by the average Joe. And, until it is, UNIX will remain the domain of the sys admins and programmers (and in my case, my x64 folding OS







)

Believe me, I would love nothing better than to see M$ fold due to their OS price gouging. But, I'm a realist.


----------



## KloroFormd

Not to sound like a donkey, but...

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Everyone keeps mentioning defrag... Vista does it automatically now, XP hardly ever needed if for average use either... lord knows I probably only ran it twice during the 4-5 years that my copy of XP was up, and my XP box wasn't a dog.


After 3 months of XP, I have to defrag or deal with outrageous startup times. :/

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Also if you don't want the stupid AV messages, don't install crap AV software (Norton is about the worest ever), and don't download garbage with viruses. You CAN get a virus and malware on Linux too... don't forget that.


Any chance you could find me a virus or malware that'll properly execute it's payload?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Here is what I want:

1) Good performance on Athlon XP 2100+ with 1 gig of memory

2) Must be "pretty"

3) Must be easy and make sense, I can deal with hard, but I don't want to.

4) Must out of the box support my hardware. I DO NOT want to compile drivers. When I mean support, I want to plug in my USB Canon printer and it start working. I do have a 22 inch wide screen monitor, I saw someone mention that some distros don't deal with that well natively.

5) Must have a good package manager, I don't want to deal with depenencies. I want updates automatic and non-intrusive.


I recommend Xubuntu.


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Quote:



Originally Posted by *Quasimojo*

Originally Posted by Quasimojo 
4) Not a show-stopper by any means, but this has always bugged me in Linux GUI's. My mouse never seems to have a very high resolution.


You can change: The resolution, the speed/sens, the acceleration and all that in the control panel










Like I said, it's not a show-stopper. It's just another one of those little things that tend to add up. Every mouse I can ever remember pluggin in to Windows worked fine from the start. Nearly every one I've plugged in to Linux has exhibited that sort of laggy behavior. Sure, I can adjust it, but I just don't understand why I should have to.

It's really a bit of a nit to pick, though. Carry on.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Here is what I want:

1) Good performance on Athlon XP 2100+ with 1 gig of memory

2) Must be "pretty"

3) Must be easy and make sense, I can deal with hard, but I don't want to.

4) Must out of the box support my hardware. I DO NOT want to compile drivers. When I mean support, I want to plug in my USB Canon printer and it start working. I do have a 22 inch wide screen monitor, I saw someone mention that some distros don't deal with that well natively.

5) Must have a good package manager, I don't want to deal with depenencies. I want updates automatic and non-intrusive.

So, what distro gets me closest to the above? I'll d/l and install it once my new HD gets in and let you guys know what I think. Obviously I can't do perf testing between Vista and this new linux box as they will be on different hardware.


I've been having a good time with Suse so far. If you can set up a couple repositories (should be as easy as clicking a couple check boxes), you can get all the software you want right in the package manager. Video drivers (at least nVidia drivers) set up with one click for me. My Cannon MP170 was detected as an MP160 and worked just fine. Compiz I haven't gotten working yet, but I haven't really tried to get it to work either.

If you don't like the sounds of that, there's Mint. Mint, for the short time I used it, worked very well out of the box. Envy did its thing to install graphics drivers, and Compiz (or maybe it was fusion) was installed by default. It looked great and was set up how I think most people would like their computer configured (like no stupid "open all folders in new windows" in the GUI file system.)

Sabayon was, by far, the most fantastic looking OS I've tried. Its Compiz-Fusion was fully featured, more so than Mint's. They really put an emphasis on "art" (they clearly state this.) Also, it's based on Gentoo, so it uses Portage as its package manager. And it comes with games pre-installed (Nexuiz, Warsow, Saurbraten), and the graphics drivers are pre-installed. I didn't play around too much with the package manager, though, so I'm not sure about updating what is already installed.

With all these OSs, though, you might like to run Xfce as your DE, as it's supposed to be leaner. I've run Super Pi in various DEs, though, and I've found that KDE runs the fastest times. But that could be just because Suse is (I think) optimized mainly for KDE.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Quasimojo*


Easy there, Sparky. Your reply of "is there a Linux port?" would lead one to think you were proposing a potentially obvious solution to the problem that you felt the poster may have overlooked, which just struck me as a real longshot. No offense was intended.


You're right; I took the wrong approach. My apologies.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *FrankenPC*


Your quoting skills are impressive. Seriously. I love your posts.


They don't call me the Multi-Quote King for nothing *blows smoke off gun*

Quote:



Originally Posted by *FrankenPC*


If people who love UNIX (in this case, Linux) want world wide adoption, then you will NEED end-user adoption. So far, all I see, day in and day out, is the same old thing: technical elitism. Conversion of common dialect into short-speak and acronyms. End-users will never feel at home with that mentality. You can argue all day long with me on this aspect, but the truth is the truth. UNIX is NOT approachable by the average Joe. And, until it is, UNIX will remain the domain of the sys admins and programmers (and in my case, my x64 folding OS







)

Believe me, I would love nothing better than to see M$ fold due to their OS price gouging. But, I'm a realist.


I'm not sure if you read my (very long) post or not. I guess you didn't, because I actually agreed with you. By no means is Linux or any Unix variant ready to become mainstream. My main point is that it would be cool if we here as leet computer users on OCN could use something more advanced and maybe help break the chains of m$ a little. For us, Linux shouldn't be as big a problem as it would for some average joe out there who doesn't know where the "On" button for his computer is.

After all, we hate fruit companies because their computers are "too easy" and "not customizable," so why do we resist Linux and justify it by saying it's too hard and we want something *easy* like windows?


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Then you're just tricking yourself and trying to justify your purchase.

For noobs wanting to learn, there are books and many ways to learn. I've gotten books and stuff myself, and I'm on my journey to learning. For leet people like us on OCN, there are always ways of finding out how to do things; that's what we DO. Maybe I'm on the wrong forum site if everyone around me is complaining that things aren't easy enough... lol


Tricking myself how? To me the only people that are fooled here are those that think slapping a copy of linux on their computer "makes" them secure. Listen, if you're running a computer, and you're stupid, YOU WILL GET HACKED.

Look at it this way, lets say you are a car theif. You have the ablity to make keys that will allow you to open and drive cars off. You can spend 2 months developing a key that will operate 90% of the cars on the road, or you can spend 2 months creating a key that will only allow you to steal 10% of the cars on the road. Which key do you develop? Does that make the 10% of the cars on the road that you don't waste your time with better designed or safer?

We don't want easy because we can't deal with a challenge, it's that we don't WANT to be bothered when there are better solutions available.


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I agree. Stupid things like that need to be changed if Linux is to take a bigger market share. I find it absurd that the supposed "easy" distro, Ubuntu (and its variants), doesn't support 1280x1024 (or any "odd/WS" res for that matter) out of the box. And it seems like such an easy thing they could change before putting the ISOs out for download...


Ubuntu 7.10 boots to [email protected] for me from a live CD and after install. Yeah, crap refresh, but the resolution is right.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *KloroFormd*


Any chance you could find me a virus or malware that'll properly execute it's payload?


Can I find it? Pretty sure. Could I distrbute? Not a chance. Sorry, I like my job thank you.


----------



## Lelouch

As much as I would love to try Ubuntu out, the damned thing doesnt work. I cant get it to even install or boot unless I put in noapic and nolapic, and then grub doesnt properly install itself to the boot loader, so I just get a fubar system that needs windows reinstalled; again.

This is unacceptable. Windows does not have these problems. If you want user adoption, an operating system that just works without having to spend an hour on a workaround is needed, from what I can tell Ubuntu is not capable of this, and hasnt been since I have tried it (started somewhere back at Ubuntu 5 something, never gotten it to work).

Not trying to knock Ubuntu too hard, but this is the crap I cant stand. Halfway tempted to again give up on this broken OS and not waste my time.. And the Ubuntu Forums have been less than helpful.


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot*


I'm now 98% off of windows at home and I can borrow my gf's windows laptop for my windows needs (just paying one bill that won't work with firefox or konqueror and converting files to mp3- something that is easy with most other distros).


So why do you need Windows for IE?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Can I find it? Pretty sure. Could I distrbute? Not a chance. Sorry, I like my job thank you.


I'm seriously trying to find one... lol. Over a year of looking, and it has yet to be found.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Lelouch*


As much as I would love to try Ubuntu out, the damned thing doesnt work. I cant get it to even install or boot unless I put in noapic and nolapic, and then grub doesnt properly install itself to the boot loader, so I just get a fubar system that needs windows reinstalled; again.

This is unacceptable. Windows does not have these problems. If you want user adoption, an operating system that just works without having to spend an hour on a workaround is needed, from what I can tell Ubuntu is not capable of this, and hasnt been since I have tried it (started somewhere back at Ubuntu 5 something, never gotten it to work).

Not trying to knock Ubuntu too hard, but this is the crap I cant stand. Halfway tempted to again give up on this broken OS and not waste my time.. And the Ubuntu Forums have been less than helpful.


What version did you try?


----------



## Lelouch

Theoretically, one could be made if it attaches itself to a installer, that when installed overrides other files, say like a program update. However im not a pro at linux/unix, but I think I know the basics of how they run.


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Lelouch*


Theoretically, one could be made if it attaches itself to a installer, that when installed overrides other files, say like a program update. However im not a pro at linux/unix, but I think I know the basics of how they run.


It'd have to be made for a specific distro using a specific package manager, and would probably no longer work before it had a chance to spread because of the quick patches.


----------



## RSXHiTMAN

tried linux and have ubuntu and redhat and see absolutely no purpose for using them , except for malicious uses, all your listed reasons for "reliability" and custom desktop changes can all be done on windows, crashes on windows are almost non existant, and if one gets a crash you get the crash dump and search for the number, plenty of people woudl have had the same crash before and you got yourself an easy resolution, on linux? even getting the basic things working (wireless cards, graphic cards) is a long and time consuming process, if you dont want to pay for windows, and do the basic things, surf etc, itll be fine, but if your gonna install new programs and hardware and are on a dynamically changing machine, your screwed


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RSXHiTMAN*


tried linux and have ubuntu and redhat and see absolutely no purpose for using them , except for malicious uses


So how much did you pay for RedHat?


----------



## voice

Well, I've given up on Linux. At least for now. Basically my inital use of Ubuntu Live CD was fine, everything was working etc.

Then i went back to windows and defragged my harddrive. Then i went back to ubuntu only to have the damn thing come up with this error message "failed to set xfer mode".

I've tried searching in google, but no one seems to have found a fix.

If anyone on here could help that would be great. Also, the CD burned perfectly, so i know it isn't that. I've also tried burning a second CD, only to have the same error appear. I have no idea what to do and really cannot be bothered at 6:24am.

As i said before, if anyone could help, that would be great. I've tried ubuntu's IRC help where i had to ask my question 3 times before someone bothered to answer it, and even then all they said was "Sorry I don't know".

I might try contacting Ubuntu staff or something, but until then, good night... or morning depending on how you look at it. Either way I'm going to go get some sleep.

Voice signing off....Exhausted and frustrated.......


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *voice*


Well, I've given up on Linux. At least for now. Basically my inital use of Ubuntu Live CD was fine, everything was working etc.

Then i went back to windows and defragged my harddrive. Then i went back to ubuntu only to have the damn thing come up with this error message "failed to set xfer mode".

I've tried searching in google, but no one seems to have found a fix.

If anyone on here could help that would be great. Also, the CD burned perfectly, so i know it isn't that. I've also tried burning a second CD, only to have the same error appear. I have no idea what to do and really cannot be bothered at 6:24am.

As i said before, if anyone could help, that would be great. I've tried ubuntu's IRC help where i had to ask my question 3 times before someone bothered to answer it, and even then all they said was "Sorry I don't know".

I might try contacting Ubuntu staff or something, but until then, good night... or morning depending on how you look at it. Either way I'm going to go get some sleep.

Voice signing off....Exhausted and frustrated.......


Ubuntu 7.10?

Try pressing F6 at the boot screen, then add "irqpoll" (without quotes) to the line. Once it's installed, open a terminal and type "sudo gedit /boot/grub/menu.lst" and on the line beginning with "kernel" again add irqpoll to the end.

It's a known bug with the P35 chipset, and it's currently being resolved. This is a temporary fix. Note that this temporary fix reduces performance a bit.


----------



## version2

While the Linux Kernel idealogical is amazing, things don't seem to always fit together well. For one, the popular GNOME and KDE GUIs are much more bloated than they should be. I blame this on not optimizing code or thinking with better efficiency. If only these GUIs were more focused and thought out like the Linux Kernel.

The Windows GUI still feels more responsible, and, believe it or not, more customizable. For example, the GNOME GUI may have themes, but very little about the tool bar is customizable. Heck, it still feels like a microscopic organism that needs some evolution attention (no pun intended). It drives me crazy.


----------



## RSXHiTMAN

Quote:



Originally Posted by *KloroFormd*


So how much did you pay for RedHat?


i got hookups, i got my xp legit too, and several oem gateway branded vistas and office


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Tricking myself how? To me the only people that are fooled here are those that think slapping a copy of linux on their computer "makes" them secure. Listen, if you're running a computer, and you're stupid, YOU WILL GET HACKED.


All I'm going to say is that OSX, windows and Linux are NOT all on the same playing field when it comes to security. You KNOW this.

Chances of getting hacked on windows is definitely greater, but larger user base isn't the sole reason.

Back on topic: the challenge: any takers?


----------



## Sistum Id

Does Ubuntu have something like Dreamscene?


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Everyone keeps mentioning defrag... Vista does it automatically now, XP hardly ever needed if for average use either... lord knows I probably only ran it twice during the 4-5 years that my copy of XP was up, and my XP box wasn't a dog.

If you stopped answering your phone, your parents would simply ask someone else who isn't trying to push their own agenda about operating systems and they would be perfectly happy running Windows. I'm not saying DON'T run Linux... just saying for the vast majority of people it's a wasted effort, you really aren't gaining much if anything.

I'd love to see actual start up times compared between Linux and Vista as well as performance testing of software that's been ported to both. In my experience Vista "seemed" faster.

Also if you don't want the stupid AV messages, don't install crap AV software (Norton is about the worest ever), and don't download garbage with viruses. You CAN get a virus and malware on Linux too... don't forget that.

Either way, you guys have convinced me to take the challenge (again) since I haven't really played with a Linux desktop in years.

I'm going with kubuntu. I was pretty unhappy with it for the 1st month after release, but they've got the bugs pretty much ironed out. I think it will meet your requirements (though perhaps you would want more eye candy).

As for startup times, I say they are irrelevant to Linux because I never have to shut it down. I do turn off the monitor just to keep the screensaver from dancing around for an hour after I'm done using it, but my computer stays on. I just turn on the monitor and move the mouse and I'm up and running again. So I guess you could say my startup time is under 2 seconds.









Now, if I stopped answering the phone, my parents wouldn't call someone else. They would take a guess and keep guessing until they screwed something up, then they'd spend a hundred bucks or so to get it professionally fixed. And actually, I'm not pushing my own agenda on them. I tell everybody who gets a computer from me, "it's coming installed with linux because it's free and I don't want to go through the trouble of installing an OS that I'm unfamiliar with (Vista). I know Linux, I like linux, it's free. I already have $220 to $600 of your money tied up in your computer, I'll be darned if I'm going to hold onto your OS as well. So you get Linux. Now, if you are happy with Linux, then great. If, however, you come across something it can't do and it frustrates you, then just go ahead and buy windows. It's just a hundred bucks, it's not worth getting aggravated about." That's hardly pushing an agenda, it's presenting a free option.

Honestly, I think you'll be surprised by Linux. Sure, it's taken some time to figure out, and I'm not really comfortable using the konsole yet, but for my uses (no games, lots of writing, surfing, photography, research, etc), it's fantastic. I do believe, for simple uses, it could almost just be an 800 tech support line away from being mainstream.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

I will make this fast and easy... I would love to switch to Linux... but, you know what? Third Party software makers don't support Linux all that much. I want to be able to do web design, graphic design, etc. and for that I will need Adobe. Tell me how I can install and run Adobe without a lot of headache then that is one point for you.

Second, music. I like to use iTunes and while there are players such as foobar they are terribly hard to operate and change for me. I like simply downloading a player that does it all in an easy and popular manner.

Lastly, gaming. If I could run good games under Linux then I would def. be considering Linux.

In summation, Linux lacks software and application support for what I need/use.

If you could solve music, gaming, and other software that I use personally and professionally then you have an argument.


----------



## thenailedone

...So many opinions... I'm sure 90% of them have some truth to them... I got Compiz working today (this morning after 12 hours of night shift) because I haven't been able to connect to the internet via Ubuntu (yet)... WOW... I love it...

The latest distro's are on par and exceeding the Windows interface in many areas... to all the anti-GNU/Linux posters that tried it a year or two ago... try again, it has changed a lot...

The Ubuntu forums are teaming with many users, experienced and n00bs and your questions will get answered... maybe not within 30 seconds (but then again judging the unanswered threads on this forum this is a natural occurrence that sometimes you have to wait...)

The thing that I can't understand is why their should be another round of I'm better than you going on in this thread...the OP was to challenge people to try it if they wanted to and give their opinions after. The amount of frustration I've endured I can understand criticism... yet I would prefer it to be educated by people that have tried to get everything going... and can talk out of experience and not hear say or ignorance...

Like many users on this forum has stated PC's are used for many things other than gaming and judging my the number of people on the Ubuntu forums their are many average users switching daily and GNU/Linux is definitely matured enough to make an impact on the desktop environment (with a lot of time and effort being put into making it even more viable)...


----------



## vgplayer

2 things hold me back from linux. Just like many others gaming and the other is watching subbed anime when the subtitles don't use the font and format the file contains. Every player I have tried does the same thing. I get gigantic subtitles and have to manual change everything but its hard to get it exactly perfect. Though now I rarely use my PC for watching movies anymore since I got XBMC setup. I am getting the EEE PC soon and plan on running Ubuntu or some other flavour of Ubuntu since I won't be gaming or watching too many videos on it. Ubuntu is probably my favorite distro I have tried since it is very easy setup and it is easy to find out what to do on ubuntuguide.org.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *vgplayer*


I am getting the EEE PC soon and plan on running Ubuntu or some other flavour of Ubuntu since I won't be gaming or watching too many videos on it. Ubuntu is probably my favorite distro I have tried since it is very easy setup and it is easy to find out what to do on ubuntuguide.org.


I don't think you want to run anything but the Eee's proprietary Linux. I heard pretty much any other OS is going to be very slow. The Eee's Linux is very good looking, but I don't know how much it does when it comes to adding new software and stuff.


----------



## Namrac

So yes, at least for me, there is no point in running Linux as my main operating system, since everything I can do in linux, I can do with less effort in Windows, and there are things I really enjoy doing in windows that either can't be done in linux or can't be done without massive amounts of frustration. Plus, I KNOW all my hardware will work with windows.

Linux is nice, and works great for someone who 1) doesn't game, 2) already has a fair amount of computer knowledge, and 3) doesn't mind working harder to get everything set up right.


----------



## nathris

Ok I'm not reading all 10 pages of this so sorry if this has been said, but you should add a disclaimer at the top telling ATI users to ignore this thread because Linux just doesn't work with it without either a having a linux tech with you or spending a week of sleepless nights modifying config files and reinstalling packages.

As for the whole stability thing, the only crashes I get are from overclocking, and at least when programs crash in Windows they have the common courtesy to tell you a little bit about it, rather than going silently, sometimes minutes before you even notice it, and if they do record some information, its usually hidden away in some log file that you have to google just to find, usually in a topic with over 100 posts of people having the same problem.

Windows just works, Vista aside, you're guaranteed any software and hardware will just work, or work after a simple patch. With linux I've found that the only programs that just work are the ones that come with the OS. Pretty much every other program will require you to install some dependency or modify a config file, and almost certainly google it. You seriously can't use linux without an internet connection, because when, not if, a problem arises you need to be one of those people who have read entire books on linux and know the exact command to fix it or you need to google it for one of those forum threads with 100s of other people having the same problem to look for a solution.


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Namrac*


Linux is nice, and works great for someone who 1) doesn't game, 2) already has a fair amount of computer knowledge, and 3) doesn't mind working harder to get everything set up right.


I disagree. Linux works fine for someone who...

1) doesn't game

2) has, or is willing to hire, someone else to set up their computer initially and make sure things are working in a way that is appropriate to them,

3) doesn't want to learn how an OS works

4) doesn't want recurring ongoing tech visits for "routine maintenance"

5) doesn't switch hardware too often.

Note, this list describes a LOT of older users. Yup. You heard it here first. Linux is a better OS for your grandmother. It's also good for a small business machine, so long as you don't need to communicate with a lot of other high tech windows apps and aren't in some kind of tech industry (eg web publishing, design, etc). For the guy who sells eBay junk out of his garage, or sells bricks and mortar, linux may be the better solution.

And I want to reemphasize point number 3. Once they are set up for the specific user (which takes a knowledgeable person about 20 minutes) Linux is the better operating system for someone who doesn't want to learn an operating system. Linux Mint, or Kubuntu, or Mepis (the three I've used) are more intuitive than windows for general everyday use.

The reason you guys are better with Windows is that you are used to it. If you weren't, you would realize that now (and maybe this is just in the past year or so) a well set-up Linux machine can truly be easier to use than Windows. Linux is easier to dumb down for really clueless users. And, at the same time, it's also more l33t! Talk about the ultimate paradox, eh?

No defrag, we have "Add/Remove programs"- with one click you can add OR remove a program. "System Settings" takes you to things that any casual user can pretty much understand, just like windows does. Your "folder", as a user, has "home folder" and "desktop" Everything else, you create yourself- far less daunting than Window's maze of directories. FWIW, I usually do create a "my documents" and "my pictures" folder on the desktop as a tutorial. I also drop Firefox and a few other apps on the desktop, again, to show people how it works. Most people tend to like those additions and it's part of the hour or so I spend setting things up after a build.


----------



## Criswell

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Choggs396*


If I have to boot into Windows for games, I'll be in Windows for most of the time I'm using my computer anyway. The rest? Emails, OCN, and typing papers for school using MS Word. Why would I switch to Linux for that?

No offense, and I'm not trying to flame, but Vista works great for what I do and the majority of what others do. So I think I'll stick with a single OS that does everything I need.



Completely agree 100%, why boot back to Linux if you don't need to since you can do the same things in Vista..

I myself have used Linux and it was totally awesome, but the game support wasn't just there..

I have good enough hardware to do all the things I want to do at once under Vista so why switch to Linux again when I don't need to?


----------



## airbozo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *nathris*


Ok I'm not reading all 10 pages of this so sorry if this has been said, but you should add a disclaimer at the top telling ATI users to ignore this thread because Linux just doesn't work with it without either a having a linux tech with you or spending a week of sleepless nights modifying config files and reinstalling packages.
....................


The first time I tried to install the ATI drivers I wanted to kill someone. Now it is second nature and takes loading only the source headers, not the entire source package.

To be honest, when a customer requests a quote for a linux box I always recommend an nVIdia card over ATI for this exact reason. I have sent my comments to the ATI developer team (have a friend there), and they seem to be responsive. I am expecting the next round of ATI driver utilities to fix most but not all of the issues. Part of the problem is due to copyright legalities. ATI has been trying to release stable linux drivers for a couple of years now, since SGI started using the FireGL cards in their midrange graphics supercomputers. They are almost there (with the help of companies like SGI), but still have work to do. One company (M$) is resisting ATI's efforts to open source their drivers. Big surprise...


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nathris* 
As for the whole stability thing, the only crashes I get are from overclocking, and at least when programs crash in Windows they have the common courtesy to tell you a little bit about it, rather than going silently, sometimes minutes before you even notice it, and if they do record some information, its usually hidden away in some log file that you have to google just to find, usually in a topic with over 100 posts of people having the same problem.

That isn't true. It's actually easier in Linux. Not only are there log files that can tell you what went wrong, but the Terminal will show the program's output. It'll report what's going wrong while it's going wrong.

Hell, I had a CD yesterday that wouldn't eject, and the OS even told me exactly which processes I had to kill to get it to come out.

And if you want to force-quit a program in Linux, it closes the FIRST time. Not on its own time.


----------



## Namrac

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
That isn't true. It's actually easier in Linux. Not only are there log files that can tell you what went wrong, but the Terminal will show the program's output. It'll report what's going wrong while it's going wrong.

Hell, I had a CD yesterday that wouldn't eject, and the OS even told me exactly which processes I had to kill to get it to come out.

And if you want to force-quit a program in Linux, it closes the FIRST time. Not on its own time.

...same as in Vista. I've never had a program linger after killing the process.

Linux is nice. It's an excellent OS. But it is NOT the be-all-end-all, second-coming-of-christ-as-an-OS that so many people make it out to be.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Namrac* 
...same as in Vista. I've never had a program linger after killing the process.

Really? In vista, XP, 2000, 98 and every windows OS I've used, choosing "End Process" in the task manager yielded no result. It would have to be done at least twice before the program actually quit.


----------



## Namrac

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Really? In vista, XP, 2000, 98 and every windows OS I've used, choosing "End Process" in the task manager yielded no result. It would have to be done at least twice before the program actually quit.

Sounds like you've had some bad luck then, because only with one particularly nasty firefox crash in XP has a program not responded to killing the process for me.

And by the way, Firefox has been crashing fairly consistently in Linux for me, it was rare in Windows, but this is like once or twice a day. >.>


----------



## daljeet2

lattyware i rep u for that fantastic post.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Namrac*


Sounds like you've had some bad luck then, because only with one particularly nasty firefox crash in XP has a program not responded to killing the process for me.

And by the way, Firefox has been crashing fairly consistently in Linux for me, it was rare in Windows, but this is like once or twice a day. >.>


Hmm... It's been like that on every computer I've ever used. End Process never does its thing right when I click it; it takes like one for the program to start to attempt shutting down, then another to [maybe] finally kill it. It's nothing major, though; just a minor annoyance.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Hmm... It's been like that on every computer I've ever used. End Process never does its thing right when I click it; it takes like one for the program to start to attempt shutting down, then another to [maybe] finally kill it. It's nothing major, though; just a minor annoyance.

Yeah, I'll agree that killing processes is definately quicker with Linux (kill -9 !!). But unlike the Windows 9x days, I rarely have to kill one anymore in Windows.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Yeah, I'll agree that killing processes is definately quicker with Linux (kill -9 !!). But unlike the Windows 9x days, I rarely have to kill one anymore in Windows.

Or ctrl + alt + esc and click on a window







And a crashing program doesn't take down the X server (what I guess would be windows explorer.)


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Perhaps someone can tell me this..... 
Can I get iTunes to work properly in Linux?
How well does compiz perform?
And can I get games like Unreal 3 to work nicely?


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


Perhaps someone can tell me this..... 
Can I get iTunes to work properly in Linux?
How well does compiz perform?
And can I get games like Unreal 3 to work nicely?



iTunes? Certianly not natively. Maybe with Wine or VMware.

Compiz, not sure.

Games - Not very well.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Also, to anyone who is really looking for legit reasons NOT to run Linux... simply look at this thread:

http://www.overclock.net/linux-unix-...-ubuntu-3.html

IMHO this just isn't an acceptable option, and why Microsoft and Apple continue to make money hand over fist. The Hundred Gunner, this isn't meant as an attack or rag on you, it's just an example of the type of "pain" that Linux users have to put up with and sometimes downplay:

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Wireless won't work on my Linux for some reason. The way I'm trying to do it won't work. So what I did was share my laptop's wireless connection with my Linux box. So my laptop gets internet wirelessly from the wireless router, and then it shares that connection via ethernet to my Linux box. So essentially I have a wireless connection through a wire, and it's much easier to set up lol


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *FrankenPC*


The two things I REALLY dislike about UNIX (Linux/AIX/SCO/Solaris you name it)

1) Documentation for beginners is non-existent. Trying to find how to do anything is nearly impossible. If it weren't for the UNIX fan boys out there showboating on the forums, UNIX would be nowhere right now.


alt+f2
terminal (or konsole if you are using kde)
man programname

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Also if you don't want the stupid AV messages, don't install crap AV software (Norton is about the worest ever), and don't download garbage with viruses. You CAN get a virus and malware on Linux too... don't forget that.


hmmmmmmmmm

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Either way, you guys have convinced me to take the challenge (again) since I haven't really played with a Linux desktop in years. (I do run it command line though) I've ordered a brand new 300gig drive to slap in my old Athlon XP 2100+ system with 1 gig of ram. So... give me the "best" distro to play with... thus far it's sounding like Ubuntu is probably up there. In the past I've always gone Red Hat or Fedora and feel 100% comfortable working with Solaris or Fedora with only the command line.

Here is what I want:

1) Good performance on Athlon XP 2100+ with 1 gig of memory

2) Must be "pretty"

3) Must be easy and make sense, I can deal with hard, but I don't want to.

4) Must out of the box support my hardware. I DO NOT want to compile drivers. When I mean support, I want to plug in my USB Canon printer and it start working. I do have a 22 inch wide screen monitor, I saw someone mention that some distros don't deal with that well natively.

5) Must have a good package manager, I don't want to deal with depenencies. I want updates automatic and non-intrusive.

So, what distro gets me closest to the above? I'll d/l and install it once my new HD gets in and let you guys know what I think. Obviously I can't do perf testing between Vista and this new linux box as they will be on different hardware.


http://linuxmint.com/
http://www.pclinuxos.com/
http://www.sam-linux.org/
http://www.faunos.com/

Quote:



Originally Posted by *FrankenPC*


Your quoting skills are impressive. Seriously. I love your posts.

If people who love UNIX (in this case, Linux) want world wide adoption, then you will NEED end-user adoption. So far, all I see, day in and day out, is the same old thing: technical elitism. Conversion of common dialect into short-speak and acronyms. End-users will never feel at home with that mentality. You can argue all day long with me on this aspect, but the truth is the truth. UNIX is NOT approachable by the average Joe. And, until it is, UNIX will remain the domain of the sys admins and programmers (and in my case, my x64 folding OS







)

Believe me, I would love nothing better than to see M$ fold due to their OS price gouging. But, I'm a realist.


It pains me to say but i agree









Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Tricking myself how? To me the only people that are fooled here are those that think slapping a copy of linux on their computer "makes" them secure. Listen, if you're running a computer, and you're stupid, YOU WILL GET HACKED.

Look at it this way, lets say you are a car theif. You have the ablity to make keys that will allow you to open and drive cars off. You can spend 2 months developing a key that will operate 90% of the cars on the road, or you can spend 2 months creating a key that will only allow you to steal 10% of the cars on the road. Which key do you develop? Does that make the 10% of the cars on the road that you don't waste your time with better designed or safer?

We don't want easy because we can't deal with a challenge, it's that we don't WANT to be bothered when there are better solutions available.


You aren't taking into account the fact that both types of 'car' are designed differently, I mean how many Windows user do you know that don't run in admin mode?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Lelouch*


As much as I would love to try Ubuntu out, the damned thing doesnt work. I cant get it to even install or boot unless I put in noapic and nolapic, and then grub doesnt properly install itself to the boot loader, so I just get a fubar system that needs windows reinstalled; again.

This is unacceptable. Windows does not have these problems. If you want user adoption, an operating system that just works without having to spend an hour on a workaround is needed, from what I can tell Ubuntu is not capable of this, and hasnt been since I have tried it (started somewhere back at Ubuntu 5 something, never gotten it to work).

Not trying to knock Ubuntu too hard, but this is the crap I cant stand. Halfway tempted to again give up on this broken OS and not waste my time.. And the Ubuntu Forums have been less than helpful.


I will admit that Linux support for some hardware is a little thin on the ground but in almost all of these cases Linux simply isn't to blame, It doesn't stop it being annoying but what can you do?

Making absolutley everything work out of the box causes bulk and bloat and nulifies it's advantage (simplicity and lightness ) over Windows imo.

While distros like *buntu, Suse, Fedora etc are great at getting people intersed in and using the penguin the noob friendly-ness comes at a price and that is performance Arch, Gentoo LFS etc > all previously mentioned distros

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


I will make this fast and easy... I would love to switch to Linux... but, you know what? Third Party software makers don't support Linux all that much. I want to be able to do web design, graphic design, etc. and for that I will need Adobe. Tell me how I can install and run Adobe without a lot of headache then that is one point for you.

Second, music. I like to use iTunes and while there are players such as foobar they are terribly hard to operate and change for me. I like simply downloading a player that does it all in an easy and popular manner.

Lastly, gaming. If I could run good games under Linux then I would def. be considering Linux.

In summation, Linux lacks software and application support for what I need/use.

If you could solve music, gaming, and other software that I use personally and professionally then you have an argument.


Adobe? Itunes is teh suck but meh, *nix alternatives (all far superior imo)
Exaile
Amarok
Rhythmbox
Listen
Banshee

Quote:



Originally Posted by *nathris*


Windows just works, Vista aside, you're guaranteed any software and hardware will just work, or work after a simple patch. With linux I've found that the only programs that just work are the ones that come with the OS. Pretty much every other program will require you to install some dependency or modify a config file, and almost certainly google it. You seriously can't use linux without an internet connection, because when, not if, a problem arises you need to be one of those people who have read entire books on linux and know the exact command to fix it or you need to google it for one of those forum threads with 100s of other people having the same problem to look for a solution.


Pretty much every single Linux package manager solves dependices for you
I will admit having a everyday Linux box especially for newcomers that isn't connected to net is not the greatest idea, The upside is that you have bang up to date drivers, Progs and a wealth of information at your fingertips.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


That isn't true. It's actually easier in Linux. Not only are there log files that can tell you what went wrong, but the Terminal will show the program's output. It'll report what's going wrong while it's going wrong.

Hell, I had a CD yesterday that wouldn't eject, and the OS even told me exactly which processes I had to kill to get it to come out.

And if you want to force-quit a program in Linux, it closes the FIRST time. Not on its own time.


Exactly!
alt+f2
terminal (konsole if you are using kde)
yourprogram

voilla a log of every single thing the program does









Quote:



Originally Posted by *Namrac*


Sounds like you've had some bad luck then, because only with one particularly nasty firefox crash in XP has a program not responded to killing the process for me.

And by the way, Firefox has been crashing fairly consistently in Linux for me, it was rare in Windows, but this is like once or twice a day. >.>


Firefox on any os has a tendacy to do funky things and crash in my experience


----------



## Mr.N00bLaR

I dunno about some of this... XP is a great OS in my opinion... I have not had an XP installation that crashed on me ever...(unless overclocking or had genuienly bad hardware). Maybe I'm lucky at home? NEver had an XP installation 'goof' at work either. As for customization, there are many programs themes for windows that work well and easily.I'm not a fan of Vista but, being a tech I'm a little biased lol. 
Ubutnu's package manager is a great tool though, definately beats 'googling'









You can play games in linux too. YOu have WINE and if you want better support (I guess, never used this solution) cadega {5$/mo I think}

UNIX is not meant to be friendly, its meant to do excalty what it's told.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Linux is has a great idea going and seems ideal if it were to work... but, that is in an ideal world. Even for those wanting to download and chat with their friends are going to experience problems. So why put up with all the headache?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
Perhaps someone can tell me this.....
Can I get iTunes to work properly in Linux?
How well does compiz perform?
And can I get games like Unreal 3 to work nicely?

I don't know about iTunes + Linux, to tell you the truth. I don't even listen to music in Linux, but I have Amarok, which is a highly rated media player program. And iPods should work in Linux, but I've also never tried that, and I'm not up to date about what the deal with newer iPods is (are they really iTunes only?)

What do you mean by "how well does compiz perform?" If you mean "is it good," then yes, it's fantastic. It has, by far, the best special desktop effects I've seen.

Unreal 3 is supposed to have a native Linux port, I believe.

I have a good list of games that I run on Linux right now. Those include: Alien Arena 2007, Doom 3, Nexuiz, Warsow and a few more. I'm not too sure about windows-only games, though. I tried XIII and Resident Evil 4 in wine with no luck. Other people have gotten them working, though, so I've heard. CSS and CS and HL are supposed to work.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Also, to anyone who is really looking for legit reasons NOT to run Linux... simply look at this thread:

http://www.overclock.net/linux-unix-...-ubuntu-3.html

IMHO this just isn't an acceptable option, and why Microsoft and Apple continue to make money hand over fist. The Hundred Gunner, this isn't meant as an attack or rag on you, it's just an example of the type of "pain" that Linux users have to put up with and sometimes downplay:

You're not listening, buddy! I've clearly stated a number of times on this very thread *we here on OCN.* That is, advanced computer users. It certainly won't fly for mainstream, which I also have explicitly said Linux is not ready for.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
Linux is has a great idea going and seems ideal if it were to work... but, that is in an ideal world. Even for those wanting to download and chat with their friends are going to experience problems. So why put up with all the headache?

Download what?

Chat is no problem. It's pre-installed with nearly every distro.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Like I said... does one really want to use a significant amount of time to learn each and every one of these nuances on linux? Sure, use GIMP, but it won't be CS3 of which someone may need. Music formats... well sure if all I buy are CD's, but I like to go to iTunes and just get a song here and there. Also, if I want to customize my music player in Linux it is a real learning process. As per gaming it is a process for each game unless it is Linux native.

Documentation, help, and having to learn command lines are a nice thought, but it is easier to click a button.

Don't kid yourself. If you have run Linux for a while and have learned the ins/outs then it is obviously easier. However, Windows is by far easier to plug and play for those who don't have the time to fiddle around. We live in a world where time is money and time isn't something I can get back after I use it.

Thus I need something that can get the job done, but will be easy and reliable and an easy learning curve. To top it applications and software support are no where near what they are on Windows or even Mac.

Lastly, how many businesses or entertainment giants use Linux for more than servers? I don't see Frontrow, Maya, or Adobe on Linux. Perhaps if there were a big reason to support Linux for more than the fact that it is free and open to extreme customization.

For Linux to gain any real ground or support from 3rd party developers then Linux has to gain some serious ground among the common user.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
Like I said... does one really want to use a significant amount of time to learn each and every one of these nuances on linux? Sure, use GIMP, but it won't be CS3 of which someone may need. Music formats... well sure if all I buy are CD's, but I like to go to iTunes and just get a song here and there. Also, if I want to customize my music player in Linux it is a real learning process. As per gaming it is a process for each game unless it is Linux native.

Documentation, help, and having to learn command lines are a nice thought, but it is easier to click a button.

Don't kid yourself. If you have run Linux for a while and have learned the ins/outs then it is obviously easier. However, Windows is by far easier to plug and play for those who don't have the time to fiddle around. We live in a world where time is money and time isn't something I can get back after I use it.

Thus I need something that can get the job done, but will be easy and reliable and an easy learning curve. To top it applications and software support are no where near what they are on Windows or even Mac.

Lastly, how many businesses or entertainment giants use Linux for more than servers? I don't see Frontrow, Maya, or Adobe on Linux. Perhaps if there were a big reason to support Linux for more than the fact that it is free and open to extreme customization.

For Linux to gain any real ground or support from 3rd party developers then Linux has to gain some serious ground among the common user.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that setting up music players on Linux is a hard task?


----------



## RoddimusPrime

In the end what I am trying to say is that while Linux is good it doesn't have the support needed yet to really convince the mainstream and it also doesn't have the ease of use when it comes to certain programs, hardware, etc. Try going wireless or one of many other instances.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for more than nothing else to run Linux and nothing else. It would be sweet to sit down and have great speed and native support on my design programs, buy third party software without hesitation, or pick up whatever game I want while I am out at the store. I am a social gamer and as such I would love to just do gaming online as well with healthy servers and such.

I shouldn't argue so much as I have a PS3 and a Xbox 360 so I can do gaming there, but you can't play things like Supreme Commander on Linux so easily and not have slow downs.

However, Linux has come a long way.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

You are picking one point out.... I have tried Foobar for instance.... perhaps it is a bad player of choice, but without plenty of research how would I know that? I tried customizing the background and adding a visualizer and such, but it wasn't nearly as easy as iTunes. Not to mention iTunes, WMP, and others automatically import Album art from a database. You can tell me Linux can do it to, but that isn't the point. I am sure in some workaround fashion it can, but I don't want to waste my time doing it. I want to download and have it working within 5 minutes and everything is already done and hooked up to album art, music I can purchase, easy access, etc.

By the way, I am sorry to have assumed the opposing side as I am trying not to, but this thread was intended not to cause an argument. I am glad you like Linux, but for ease of use and compatibility it is not for me. My time is very valuable and I am happy it is easy for you, but if it were so easy and better then I think more people would be using it and more major developers would be supporting it. Period.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
You are picking one point out.... I have tried Foobar for instance.... perhaps it is a bad player of choice, but without plenty of research how would I know that? I tried customizing the background and adding a visualizer and such, but it wasn't nearly as easy as iTunes. Not to mention iTunes, WMP, and others automatically import Album art from a database. You can tell me Linux can do it to, but that isn't the point. I am sure in some workaround fashion it can, but I don't want to waste my time doing it. I want to download and have it working within 5 minutes and everything is already done and hooked up to album art, music I can purchase, easy access, etc.

By the way, I am sorry to have assumed the opposing side as I am trying not to, but this thread was intended not to cause an argument. I am glad you like Linux, but for ease of use and compatibility it is not for me. My time is very valuable and I am happy it is easy for you, but if it were so easy and better then I think more people would be using it and more major developers would be supporting it. Period.

Exaile and amarok do it out of the box and the others i listed above should do it but i can't remember.

It just seems like you just can't be bothered to do any research at all. 1 simple search of google or even here would tell you some good linux players. As Itunes doesn't ship with Linux you have do some sort of research to discover it i presume, Why not give Linux the same treatment? It just seems a little unfair.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Again, it is one example. If that were all the research I need to do then awesome. However, I have to research how to install software I use both everyday and every now and then. Let me make a few more examples:

1. I need to see if Linux will run Supreme Commander and play online as well. I do like good strategy games. For that matter, throw in chess.
2. Will Linux run Unreal 3 and I mean officially/natively.
3. Will Linux run Adobe CS2 without a big performance hit?
4. Will Linux take advantage of my high end system?
5. Do those players have a great interface you mentioned?
6. Will the Language programs I have from Instant Immersion run in Linux?
7. What about my Macromedia Studio 8 for Web Design? Can I also publish my pages without knowing additional code, etc?
8. And oh yeah, what about Crysis? Sorry to say it, but I want to play those nifty new games and have the online support to boot.

I will stop there, but that is just a few examples that I can easily list off the top of my head. Again, I am not trying to argue, but don't assume I don't mind doing research, but it would really begin to feel like a drag every time I needed to add/change code to just pop a disc in and run a program. Simply put, I don't know how to do all that stuff you do, but it would be much easier if programs ran with little complication and the support was there for online gaming, etc.


----------



## l V l

Here goes my statement:

I don't use linux because it has no benefit over Windows. There. =]

Plus I am in love with EXE's. Greatest thing since water.

But in all seriousness, I have used multiple Linux's and just got bored super fast. I am a gamer =P


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Hopefully you don't get mauled over your statement. This thread was supposed to be simple in idea. Good idea, but it has turned out to be a flame war mainly due to the fact that Windows users game and gaming is not practical on Linux and some programs are headaches to have to install in Linux. The end.

While I like Linux in idea and spirit, it isn't so inviting to the average person or hard core gamer.

I am going to bed, but seriously, I hope the Linux users on here view this thread and see one fault already. It turns out that Linux purists have an attitude towards anyone else who has an opinion and prefers something else for their own reason. Instead of trying to tell someone they are wrong or argue, simply try and help. Isn't that the idea of Linux?

Good night folks.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


By the way, I am sorry to have assumed the opposing side as I am trying not to, but this thread was intended not to cause an argument. I am glad you like Linux, but for ease of use and compatibility it is not for me. My time is very valuable and I am happy it is easy for you, but if it were so easy and better then I think more people would be using it and more major developers would be supporting it. Period.


I can see your point. But keep in mind (most have lost sight already) that the focus on this thread was people on OCN giving Linux a try. We aren't talking about mainstream or grandmas or moms and dads. We're talking about advanced computer users here on OCN trying out a new OS and hopefully gaining some insight and seeing what this is all about.

Unfortunately, as you said, this thread has turned into bickering and justifications of why we're using windows instead (repeating those such reasons Lattyware already stated in the beginning of this thread.)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *l V l*


Here goes my statement:

I don't use linux because it has no benefit over Windows. There. =]

Plus I am in love with EXE's. Greatest thing since water.

But in all seriousness, I have used multiple Linux's and just got bored super fast. I am a gamer =P


Well to be honest, if you're at least proficient in the computing world, it wouldn't kill you to go to a terminal and type ./install instead of clicking on an install.exe icon. I mean come on, you hate OSX because it's "too easy," don't you?


----------



## l V l

Like I said, all my preferences come from gaming... that would be why I hate OSX...

If I did not game, I would probably use linux... who knows.


----------



## ae804

See, I was kinda appathetic about the whole Linux thing... just kinda played around with it because I needed it for my Senior design project

That was till I saw this:

  
 YouTube - My Ubuntu Beryl Matrix 3D Desktop  



 
 So i've spent the last few hours playing around with my settings trying to make have fun with the settings

-Note that this is not 7.10 and compiz fusion (i'm not sure if compiz can do all this stuff quite yet), but instead 7.04 and beryl--It's fun!


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ae804*


See, I was kinda appathetic about the whole Linux thing... just kinda played around with it because I needed it for my Senior design project

That was till I saw this:

So i've spent the last few hours playing around with my settings trying to make have fun with the settings

-Note that this is not 7.10 and compiz fusion (i'm not sure if compiz can do all this stuff quite yet), but instead 7.04 and beryl--It's fun!


Wow, that owned hardcore! You're hearing this from the #1 Matrix fan









You so gotta teach me that


----------



## biatchi

I just wish that people would put in the same amount of time learning Linux that they did to learn Windows then we might actually get more users and, In turn more 3rd party devs making their programs run nativley on *nix


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Crystal Method for the song if I am correct?

Tell you guys what. I will be willing to install Linux if you guys can help me with a few things:

1. What version do you guys like the best? Ubuntu seems nice to me. Also, there is some PC Linux that is supposedly nice. Give some opinions.
2. Is it easy to dual boot XP with Linux installed first? I don't even care if it is easier to buy a second hard drive and do it.
3. Tell me whether Linux will take advantage of my setup. Running Q6600 quad core processor, 4 Gigs of RAM, and an 8800GT. I want to make full use of it.
4. Is Linux a faster operating system? I need to know this just because I built the computer with speed in mind.
5. How realistic would it be to run video editing programs, design programs, and such with professional quality/grade. Right now I use Adobe/Macromedia/Avid Liquid.
6. Someone mentioned I could download an easy to use player that had a an album database so it would assign the proper pictures for the album, etc. without me having to cut and past for each artist. I have a lot of music. On top of that I like to sniff out new artists and have done so via iTunes. I am willing to try something else, but would like to be able to hunt down new artists by accident, etc.
7. How the heck do I get that Matrix theme going in Linux!!!
8. Can I use Linux to interface with other machines using other OS's? Is it easy to network? How about streaming videos to my PS3? Really, I am serious on that one.
9. And oh yeah, can I pull an Oceans movie stunt with Linux









In all seriousness, I would like to see someone spell it all out and help me with that. If you can do that then I will give Linux a genuine try. This is my challenge to the Linux user's.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


Crystal Method for the song if I am correct?
8. Can I use Linux to interface with other machines using other OS's? Is it easy to network? How about streaming videos to my PS3? Really, I am serious on that one.


The networking side should be very easy, you can use Samba for SMB windows file shares, or personally I just use SCP / SSH which keeps me from having to run Samba on my Linux boxes.

You can get a great SCP client for Windows which will allow you drag drop file copying to / from you linux box at http://www.winscp.com

Good luck


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Stevo*


What distro of linux would you suggest for people starting off?


(X)or(K)ubuntu or, try Sabayon... beryl works out of the box as does all teh hardware on my lappy.


----------



## ae804

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


Crystal Method for the song if I am correct?

Tell you guys what. I will be willing to install Linux if you guys can help me with a few things:

1. What version do you guys like the best? Ubuntu seems nice to me. Also, there is some PC Linux that is supposedly nice. Give some opinions.


I don't understand what you mean by PC. As for "Best" Linux, Ubuntu is easiest to get started with (I have found). It's close enough to windows that you can get by with out using the terminal commands, but you still have the urge to figure out stuff for your self.

Quote:



2. Is it easy to dual boot XP with Linux installed first? I don't even care if it is easier to buy a second hard drive and do it.


You don't need to buy a second hard drive, but it'll probably be easier to have XP installed first. Just make sure that you defrag your hdd before you install linux.

Quote:



3. Tell me whether Linux will take advantage of my setup. Running Q6600 quad core processor, 4 Gigs of RAM, and an 8800GT. I want to make full use of it.


Just make sure that you d/l the 64b version of Linux and you'll be OK. The only thing I'd be worried about utilizing the video card. Everything else will be used to it's full potential.
Quote:



4. Is Linux a faster operating system? I need to know this just because I built the computer with speed in mind.


It's less resource intensive (depending on how you set it up). That video that I posted earlier was on a computer running an AMD 1800+, 512 Ram, and a NVIDIA geforce 4200 TI
Quote:



5. How realistic would it be to run video editing programs, design programs, and such with professional quality/grade. Right now I use Adobe/Macromedia/Avid Liquid.


You'd have to find the correct applications. Honestly, I'd go to the Ubuntu forums and ask that question. I'm sure that there's someone there that can tell you what programs to download (and you can install Ubuntu and test them out and worse comes to worse, you format the partition if you realize the apps aren't powerful enough)
Quote:



6. Someone mentioned I could download an easy to use player that had a an album database so it would assign the proper pictures for the album, etc. without me having to cut and past for each artist. I have a lot of music. On top of that I like to sniff out new artists and have done so via iTunes. I am willing to try something else, but would like to be able to hunt down new artists by accident, etc.


Not sure on this one. You'd have to find out the app once again.
Quote:



7. How the heck do I get that Matrix theme going in Linux!!!


I've been playing around w/ it and hope to write up a how to in the near future... More than likely it'll be a work in progress.
Quote:



8. Can I use Linux to interface with other machines using other OS's? Is it easy to network? How about streaming videos to my PS3? Really, I am serious on that one.


Where there's a will, there's a way. I know that some people have put Ubuntu on their PS3, so I'd assume you could network the two systems together (your comp and the PS3) and play video that way... There may even be a custom application that already does that.
Quote:



9. And oh yeah, can I pull an Oceans movie stunt with Linux









In all seriousness, I would like to see someone spell it all out and help me with that. If you can do that then I will give Linux a genuine try. This is my challenge to the Linux user's.


Not too sure what you mean by that last one, but it seems to me like many of your questions aren't just wondering about the OS, but more the applications in the OS. The only way to test out the applications is to install Linux.

--Oh, and some of your questions may be answered by Wine. If you have a very powerful video rendering tool in Windows, you could install it in Linux using Wine, a Windows emulation program. It's not guaranteed to work, but it's another possibility.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


You're not listening, buddy! I've clearly stated a number of times on this very thread *we here on OCN.* That is, advanced computer users. It certainly won't fly for mainstream, which I also have explicitly said Linux is not ready for.


I am listening, that point was more directed towards those who think that Linux is a great option for everyone / every computer. You and I are on the same page. And remember, I'm not anti Linux, just have never liked Linux desktops. I use Linux / Unix daily at work and @ home.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
Crystal Method for the song if I am correct?

Tell you guys what. I will be willing to install Linux if you guys can help me with a few things:

1. What version do you guys like the best? Ubuntu seems nice to me. Also, there is some PC Linux that is supposedly nice. Give some opinions.

I think you mean
http://www.pclinuxos.com/

It is very good i would personally reccomend it over *buntu


----------



## ErdincIntel

I'm using Linux for years. Actually first I started using it because I had to







. For an image processing utility only available in Linux for my master degree study on astronomy. Linux is more complex, it's true but when you learn it, you can do much more than when using Windows. For example, with right software and hardware you can crack a WEP security wireless connection in 4 minutes







. And if you know about programming, Linux is very flexible and efficient to work on. Another plus for Linux I think is it's open source. And you can trust it more and more secure about personal information. Every programmer can analyse every line of code it uses.

But after all, everyone's needs are different. Still Windows is more user-friendly I think. If you are a programmer and Linux is right for you, no reason to use Windows. But if you are a gamer like most computer users, Linux isn't good enough yet. Microsoft is still dominating trademark in OS's (end-user) and other firms writes drivers for it first. But Linux has never stopped evolving and came a long way about user-friendliness. Several years ago, such a topic could be nonsense. Now many laptop and desktop computer sellers, give Linux with their pack of products. And I believe It will go on evolving and may be more competitive with other OS's.

p.s: I use Windows XP and Fedora 8 on my computer.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

2 quick things....... I hear it is easier to install XP/Vista first and then Linux.... can anyone give me a link to a good sight as to how to dual boot with Windows and Linux?

And yeah, PC Linux OS or Ubuntu?


----------



## ErdincIntel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
2 quick things....... I hear it is easier to install XP/Vista first and then Linux.... can anyone give me a link to a good sight as to how to dual boot with Windows and Linux?

And yeah, PC Linux OS or Ubuntu?

They have good instructions about it on main linux sites. And for beginning, an up-to-date and general linux distro is better. But never used distros you say.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Are you saying not to use Ubuntu? I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be the ultimate in Linux friendly environment for someone diving in for the first time... am I wrong?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
2 quick things....... I hear it is easier to install XP/Vista first and then Linux.... can anyone give me a link to a good sight as to how to dual boot with Windows and Linux?

And yeah, PC Linux OS or Ubuntu?

windows first, because windows thinks it's the only OS in the world, so if you have another OS on the HDD, it won't include it in the MBR. Linux will be aware of the windows OS and include it in its boot loader; this should be done by default in most graphical installers.

I haven't used PC Linux OS, but I hear it's supposed to be one of the "easier" distros. I'm not 100% sure, but I think you might have to get a 64-bit OS for 4GB to completely be read. Ubuntu has 64-bit ports, but I'm not sure about PCLinuxOS. And Mint also doesn't have a 64-bit version, and that was the one I would have recommended over Ubuntu.

I've also heard PC-BSD is supposed to be kinda easy. Though it isn't exactly Linux, I've read that BSD is supposed to be able to run Linux apps and more. This is 32-bit only, though. I have PC-BSD, but I never got around to installing it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
Are you saying not to use Ubuntu? I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be the ultimate in Linux friendly environment for someone diving in for the first time... am I wrong?

No, I think he's just saying that he hasn't used the ones you mentioned (PC Linux OS and Ubuntu.) On another note, if, by any chance, you find yourself having a hard time getting things like Compiz working in Ubuntu, you might also like to try Sabayon. Sabayon comes with lots of that stuff pre-installed and already configured for your computer by the time you boot into the Live CD. Its package manager, Portage, is supposed to be powerful.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

I like the idea of Compiz... does it work fairly well? What is the big difference between it and Beryl?

Also, can you install Adobe reader/flash in Linux?


----------



## pow3rtr1p

I used Linux for 2 months, and it was OK, but I'm not going to use it again anytime soon. I can't upload homework to my school's intranet (a must) so word processing is a no-go. Also, no ATI support (still no x1950 drivers) no support for my mobo's SATA drivers, no gaming to speak of, not plug and play support for hardly anything, no printer drivers for my printer, and no sound card drivers... I won't use it until it has support for all of the hardware in my PC, and seeing as I have an over 1 year old video card, it looks like that won't be for a while...


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


I like the idea of Compiz... does it work fairly well? What is the big difference between it and Beryl?

Also, can you install Adobe reader/flash in Linux?


If you want flash player with little troubles installing, go 32-bit. In Ubuntu 7.10, Firefox can install Flash the same as in Windows. You get a box asking if you want to install the plugin. Hopefully, Adobe will release a 64-bit version.

As for Adobe Reader... it's crap. There's many alternatives for Linux that don't take 15 seconds to load.

Compiz Fusion works GREAT. Compiz was first, Beryl was a spinoff of the project, then the 2 projects combined to make Compiz Fusion. I actually have LESS CPU usage with the fancy effects running than without.

For those that don't believe me... drag a large window around on the screen quickly without Compiz. Notice the CPU usage jump up a bit. Enable Compiz. Drag the windows around again. Note that the CPU usage doesn't move.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pow3rtr1p*


Also, no ATI support (still no x1950 drivers)


What is this lack of ATI x1950 support you speak of?

Quote:



not plug and play support for hardly anything


Even an iPod works as a plug and play device... no extra software needed. When was the last time you tried it?


----------



## jinja_ninja

I use Fedora at work, which is what 90% of our servers run on. I only really use the SSH command terminal through my XP laptop.

Linux is very powerful and has some brilliant ideas, shortcuts and things that just "make more sense". However, even after several months of using it, I would still call myself an advanced novice.

For me, compatibility is the main key. My Windows machines very very very rarely ever crash. Usually it is down to my own mistakes! If you maintain your PC well, it will not crash. Unfortunately this doesn't always apply to the novice PC user... who wouldn't use Linux in the first place.

I respect Linux as a very good OS, but in today's world, Windows has the upper-hand. I'm in business and businesses use Windows. Servers can use Linux, no problem, because the average user does not need to use it.


----------



## UberN00B

id like to try it, but i dont understand the interface.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

On a side note, is a big deal if I install 64 bit Ubuntu? 64 bit will make full use of what I have on my PC, but I don't want to run into heavy problems being 64 bit.

Should I stick with the vanilla version or take a look at Kbuntu?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
I like the idea of Compiz... does it work fairly well? What is the big difference between it and Beryl?

Also, can you install Adobe reader/flash in Linux?

I don't know what you mean by "work well." Do you mean does it work on lower-end systems? Do you mean does it look nice?

I'm not even sure what the difference between Beryl and Compiz is, but I think Compiz-Fusion is a "mix" between the two (Beryl + Compiz, that is.)

Every (graphical) distro I've ever heard of has a PDF reader (and writer? I know OOo can convert word/text files into PDF) of some sort, although it isn't called "adobe acrobat reader."

There is an Adobe Flash Player in Linux as well as Java.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
On a side note, is a big deal if I install 64 bit Ubuntu? 64 bit will make full use of what I have on my PC, but I don't want to run into heavy problems being 64 bit.

Should I stick with the vanilla version or take a look at Kbuntu?

I'm using Suse 10.3 x64 and haven't run into any 64-bit <--> 32-bit compatibility issues at all. The main issue I used to have with 64-bit on other distros is flash player. I can't remember what distro I did this on, but I used some kind of "flashwrapper" or some "wrapper" program like that which uses the 32-bit flash as 64-bit. I don't really even understand what the deal is with flash; the only thing that's holding flash back in 64-bit is the installer.

The file that you download from Adobe is the same. The folder contains 3 files. One is the actual flash plugin, the other idk, and the last is the installer. All the installer does is put that actual plugin into your Firefox folder. The stupid installer will check if your OS is x86 or x64, and if it's x64 it just won't copy the file to the folder for you. Kinda stupid. But it is possible to get flash working in an x64 environment, just know that.

Suse automatically had Flash installed, so I had no issues with that at all.

As for choosing among the *buntus, just go with whichever interface you like best, because that's the only difference. As you probably already know, Ubuntu uses GNOME, Kubuntu uses KDE, and Xubuntu uses Xfce.

GNOME and KDE are the most used. GNOME, I think, focuses more on ease of use and easier navigation. KDE seems to focus more on looks. I find KDE to be faster, though. GNOME seems to have better overall support. Both will run any program, whether or not they're "oriented" for one or the other.


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


As for choosing among the *buntus, just go with whichever interface you like best, because that's the only difference. As you probably already know, Ubuntu uses GNOME, Kubuntu uses KDE, and Xubuntu uses Xfce.

GNOME and KDE are the most used. GNOME, I think, focuses more on ease of use and easier navigation. KDE seems to focus more on looks. I find KDE to be faster, though. GNOME seems to have better overall support. Both will run any program, whether or not they're "oriented" for one or the other.


It should also be pointed out that you can install any of the window managers on any version. KDE can be installed on Ubuntu and it'll be just like Ubuntu but with Gnome apps also installed. For me though, I prefer Xubuntu with a few KDE and Gnome apps installed. AmaroK is a must.


----------



## biatchi

I forgot PcLinuxos doesn't have a 64bit version. Go with Fedora, Suse or *buntu.

Kloro - Have you tried http://www.exaile.org/ instead of Amarok? I used to love Amarok but i prefer Exaile and it would be one less kde dependency for you.

THG - There is no 64bit flash player so 64bit distros get it working by using 32bit libs and emulating it ala wow64 on windows.


----------



## pow3rtr1p

Quote:



Originally Posted by *KloroFormd*


If you want flash player with little troubles installing, go 32-bit. In Ubuntu 7.10, Firefox can install Flash the same as in Windows. You get a box asking if you want to install the plugin. Hopefully, Adobe will release a 64-bit version.

As for Adobe Reader... it's crap. There's many alternatives for Linux that don't take 15 seconds to load.

Compiz Fusion works GREAT. Compiz was first, Beryl was a spinoff of the project, then the 2 projects combined to make Compiz Fusion. I actually have LESS CPU usage with the fancy effects running than without.

For those that don't believe me... drag a large window around on the screen quickly without Compiz. Notice the CPU usage jump up a bit. Enable Compiz. Drag the windows around again. Note that the CPU usage doesn't move.

What is this lack of ATI x1950 support you speak of?

Even an iPod works as a plug and play device... no extra software needed. When was the last time you tried it?


ATI's website has no x1950 Linux Drivers, and I don't feel like going to the trouble of trying to code my own drivers. Besides, with no SATA driver support as of 2 months ago, none of it matters, as I couldn't install it even if I wanted to.

The last time I used Linux was this time last year, before I bought the x1950. After that, even web pages lagged when I scrolled, and then I upgraded my mobo, and couldn't install it to try to hack or code drivers myself anyway.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
I forgot PcLinuxos doesn't have a 64bit version. Go with Fedora, Suse or *buntu.

Kloro - Have you tried http://www.exaile.org/ instead of Amarok? I used to love Amarok but i prefer Exaile and it would be one less kde dependency for you.

THG - There is no 64bit flash player so 64bit distros get it working by using 32bit libs and emulating it ala wow64 on windows.

I need this file to get Exaile installed: libpython2.5.so.1.0. But it's not in the repos, and the only site that carries it (PBone or something) never works. Anyone have it?

The regular flash file will still work in 64-bit. It's only the installer that doesn't like 64-bit. You can manually move the file to your Mozilla Firefox folder.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pow3rtr1p* 
ATI's website has no x1950 Linux Drivers, and I don't feel like going to the trouble of trying to code my own drivers. Besides, with no SATA driver support as of 2 months ago, none of it matters, as I couldn't install it even if I wanted to.

The last time I used Linux was this time last year, before I bought the x1950. After that, even web pages lagged when I scrolled, and then I upgraded my mobo, and couldn't install it to try to hack or code drivers myself anyway.

ATI just upped Linux driver support recently. It should be available in the package manager. I don't know about the no SATA support. A couple times, Suse didn't detect my SATA HDDs, but I rebooted and somehow now it does. Gobo Linux did that too, as well as PC-BSD.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I need this file to get Exaile installed: libpython2.5.so.1.0. But it's not in the repos, and the only site that carries it (PBone or something) never works. Anyone have it?

The regular flash file will still work in 64-bit. It's only the installer that doesn't like 64-bit. You can manually move the file to your Mozilla Firefox folder.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


this has been on the 10.2 packman repo for quite sometime, but it hasn't been ported to 10.3 yet, and it's still a little oudated! There is now a 0.2.11 package of exaile for openSUSE 10.3 in the Downloads section of the Exaile site.


It is in the packman repo
http://packman.links2linux.org/package/exaile/40738

also have you got all the depencies met?
http://www.exaile.org/requirements

I am not disagreeing with you about flash i just want to point out that Suse64 is not pure 64bit like Arch64 is, Suse comes pre-installed with 32bit libs for compatibility reasons such as this
http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/in...howtopic=32536

Good luck with exaile


----------



## Namrac

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I need this file to get Exaile installed: libpython2.5.so.1.0. But it's not in the repos, and the only site that carries it (PBone or something) never works. Anyone have it?

The regular flash file will still work in 64-bit. It's only the installer that doesn't like 64-bit. You can manually move the file to your Mozilla Firefox folder.

ATI just upped Linux driver support recently. It should be available in the package manager. I don't know about the no SATA support. A couple times, Suse didn't detect my SATA HDDs, but I rebooted and somehow now it does. Gobo Linux did that too, as well as PC-BSD.


THAT'S why I don't use Linux as my main OS. With Windows, I don't have to worry whether my HDDs will be recognized. I also don't have to worry that Windows will catastrophically crash, forcing me to reinstall after 4 days like my Linux install did recently.

It's just not a viable long-term OS.


----------



## biatchi

It's Katie Downes in my avy to whoever just asked


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Quite nice!! I asked... lol.

Do you guys think it would be a nice setup if I had Windows Vista on Hard Drive 1 while I put Linux on Hard Drive 2 and had an external to boot? Any thoughts and/or advice?


----------



## Limes

I am totally down with Linux, I run Windows though, because I don't want to install something that I need to remember programming for. I am horrible at it, but I am interested on how games run on it vs windows.

I know they will run better, but its just too much work for me.

Good post though, because some of the stuff you brought to mind I have never heard of before.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


Quite nice!! I asked... lol.

Do you guys think it would be a nice setup if I had Windows Vista on Hard Drive 1 while I put Linux on Hard Drive 2 and had an external to boot? Any thoughts and/or advice?


An external aswell or a external to boot from? I see no problem with that setup, Just install Vista first.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

I was thinking 2 internal... one for Vista and one for Linux and then having an external for anything I want to back up.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Ok, got the fastest shipping ever (thanks Frys / DHL) and have a new 320 gig drive ready. I'm going to try ubuntu since it seems to be one of the most popular... now if I could just get Nero to burn an ISO correctly... or maybe it's my cheap CD's... grrr. Either way CD image #1 isn't any good... I'll get a good one and let you know my inital thoughts on this thing. Wish me luck.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Try CDBurnerXP for the ISO cd... very simple and free.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Thanks, turns out it was my crappy old CD-ROM drive. It's installing now


----------



## biatchi

For future reference http://www.imgburn.com/ rocks for .iso burning/making etc.

Iv'e started burning cd's @40x instead of max because there is nothing more annoying than getting a coaster or a disk that partially works.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


I was thinking 2 internal... one for Vista and one for Linux and then having an external for anything I want to back up.


That should be fine just remeber to do Vista first it will save headaches.


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *KloroFormd*


As for Adobe Reader... it's crap. There's many alternatives for Linux that don't take 15 seconds to load.


Oh my god, that was the absolute selling point numero uno with my dad. He sells products for a number of different companies for a living. Of course, any press release, document, whatever, is always in pdf and Adobe's free reader was KILLING him.

I showed him KPDF. He downloaded a file that he said he gave up on after 20 minutes (admittedly, on a very old P3 running XP, albeit with a decent cable connection). It DL'd and displayed, in full, in under 5 seconds with KPDF. At that point, he decided he would be willing to put up with headaches on his home computer if it meant he could run linux to take care of the things that windows sucks at.

FWIW though, he also just bought a brand new laptop with Vista and better specs than his AMD single core computer that I built for him for home use. It will be interesting to see how he feels about the two as time goes on..

And for all you people who think I'm not being fair to windows, I'll say upfront, his vista computer has way better specs than the linux machine and I'm 2 hours away, so tech support from me is pretty minimal at this point. He already knows windows XP somewhat well. It will be a very interesting trial... to see how a computer user, using his computer for BUSINESS, sees the two sides of the coin.

My bet is that he'll like both, for different reasons, and will wind up preferring Linux at home and Vista for work. I am betting he will actually save some work specifically to do at home on Linux, but will do less general use surfing/emailing on Vista. Just my hunch..


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Ok, on ubuntu now... after a very frustrating start it's up and running. I have no idea why it refused to find my graphics card (Geforce TI4600) and monitor.... or why it refused to save and keep my changes the first 10 - 15 times I entered them... but eventually the moons came into alignment and it finally took them. I'm now remembering how much I hate the default linux fonts that show up in the brower... ugh. This is ugly. I will say that the install is pretty simple compared to Fedora / RHEL, and that the wiggly window drags are kinda cool, but so far nothing earth shattering.

More to come.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


It is in the packman repo
http://packman.links2linux.org/package/exaile/40738


libpython2.5.so.1.0

That particular file is not in Packman. I've searched all over for it, but the only site that has it doesn't do anything when I click the link for the download.

When I do:

Code:


Code:


sudo rpm -i exaile.rpm

It says I need the above file to meet dependency requirements.

But when I try to install from YaST, I get all kinds of wild dependency conflicts that keep going and going. I did "ignore" on all those, got Exaile installed, and I get "could not find <files>" when I try to run it in Konsole. So I guess that didn't work either.

Btw, my Suse is 64-bit, and the .rpm file I have is i586. If I can somehow get my hands on that libpython2.5.so.1.0 file, would the i586 file still work?

(Edit: I can't find ANY of these requirements on this page here via my package management; I find that absurd: http://www.exaile.org/requirements)



biatchi said:


> I am not disagreeing with you about flash i just want to point out that Suse64 is not pure 64bit like Arch64 is, Suse comes pre-installed with 32bit libs for compatibility reasons such as this
> http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/in...howtopic=32536
> 
> Seeing the link you provided, I got a couple questions:
> 
> Take my Suse x64 for example. It is a 64-bit OS, correct? But it uses libraries for compatibility with 32-bit. The OS itself is still 64-bit, yes?
> 
> And also: all the programs I have that are installed as <filename>x86_64.rpm are "actually" 64-bit, right?
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Limes*
> 
> 
> I am totally down with Linux, I run Windows though, because I don't want to install something that I need to remember programming for. I am horrible at it, but I am interested on how games run on it vs windows.
> 
> 
> You don't need to know programming. I don't know programming. You just have to get familiar with basic command syntax (<command> <options> <files>) and navigating the filesystem (cd, cp, mv, rm), and then you should be on your way just fine.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot*
> 
> 
> Oh my god, that was the absolute selling point numero uno with my dad. He sells products for a number of different companies for a living. Of course, any press release, document, whatever, is always in pdf and Adobe's free reader was KILLING him.
> 
> 
> To be fair, there are plenty of other PDF-reading programs for windows too.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot*


Oh my god, that was the absolute selling point numero uno with my dad. He sells products for a number of different companies for a living. Of course, any press release, document, whatever, is always in pdf and Adobe's free reader was KILLING him.


It will be interesting to see how he likes the Vista box. Assuming it has enough memory, Acrobat docs should open nearly instantly like they do on mine, and I'm running Adobe's free reader... which yes... does suck on a slow computer. (Why????) I'm not Adobe's biggest fan....


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


It will be interesting to see how he likes the Vista box. Assuming it has enough memory, Acrobat docs should open nearly instantly like they do on mine, and I'm running Adobe's free reader... which yes... does suck on a slow computer. (Why????) I'm not Adobe's biggest fan....


He got 2 gigs. Same as he has in his home computer. His processor is faster, but it's a lappy. So it's a pretty fair comparison.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Ok, officially annoyed... I'm locked out of root by default. Lovely. I can change / set the root password through the GUI after I enter my regular account password... again. (Didn't I already auth when I logged in???) Why is it that any admin type settings require re-authing, this is EXACTLY like UAC on Vista, only more annoying because it doesn't trust your existing auth.

The weird part is that the terminal keeps me locked out:

[email protected]:/etc$ su root
Password: 
su: Authentication failure
Sorry.
[email protected]:/etc$ passwd root
passwd: You may not view or modify password information for root.

After changing it in the GUI, I can now su to root no problems (since now I actually know what the password is).

Pretty soon the scanner and printers will start getting plugged in.... wish ubuntu luck ;-)


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot* 
He got 2 gigs. Same as he has in his home computer. His processor is faster, but it's a lappy. So it's a pretty fair comparison.

2 gigs should be plenty fine, though I will say that bumping mine up to 4 gigs made a nice difference. Microsoft wasn't kidding around with their superfetch stuff taking advantage of as much memory as possible. Everything I click now is basically instant.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Ok, officially annoyed... I'm locked out of root by default. Lovely. I can change / set the root password through the GUI after I enter my regular account password... again. (Didn't I already auth when I logged in???) Why is it that any admin type settings require re-authing, this is EXACTLY like UAC on Vista, only more annoying because it doesn't trust your existing auth.

The weird part is that the terminal keeps me locked out:

[email protected]:/etc$ su root
Password:
su: Authentication failure
Sorry.
[email protected]:/etc$ passwd root
passwd: You may not view or modify password information for root.

After changing it in the GUI, I can now su to root no problems (since now I actually know what the password is).

Pretty soon the scanner and printers will start getting plugged in.... wish ubuntu luck ;-)

To become root in console, it's just:

Code:



Code:


su
<enter pw here>

That's it. You don't write root after su.

If you haven't set up the root password, you can do that in Administration in user accounts. If you want to have root privileges via your own account, you can use

Code:



Code:


sudo -i
<your password

You need authorization because in Linux, your account is separate from the root account. This way, a bug or virus or something won't be able to do system damage using the current (your) account. You only have to do "su" once each time you enter the console.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Yeah, I know normally it's just "su" and I tried that first. su assumes you want root, but since that didn't work I tried being explicit (both ways should work fine). My issue was that the original install didn't prompt me to enter a root account password, and I hadn't found it yet in the GUI. I get concerned that I don't know what the default password is for root, since the account clearly exists in /etc/passwd. I'm sure they did something random, but who knows. I didn't like that I didn't get prompted for escalation of privileges within the terminal if that was required to set the root password. Overall probably minor, and just because I'm used to other distros. I understand why it prompts for the password, just don't see the point if my user is already part of the admin group and the password I entered @ login is the same as the one that's letting me into the settings. UAC in Vista is basically the same deal (minus the double login), only from what I can tell slightly more secure as it doesn't continue to trust after the first auth.

Overall starting to get more used to it and it's not horrible... though I will say that so far it has prompted me twice for reboots due to driver install or in this most recent case just due to "normal updates"... not sure where you guys get the idea this doesn't require reboots, cause it's telling me I need to.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
libpython2.5.so.1.0

That particular file is not in Packman. I've searched all over for it, but the only site that has it doesn't do anything when I click the link for the download.

When I do:

Code:



Code:


sudo rpm -i exaile.rpm

It says I need the above file to meet dependency requirements.

That file is provided by the libpython package but it said that they haven't got round to updating it yet which would explain why it can't find it.

In a konsole type.

Code:



Code:


locate libpython

and paste the results here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
But when I try to install from YaST, I get all kinds of wild dependency conflicts that keep going and going. I did "ignore" on all those, got Exaile installed, and I get "could not find <files>" when I try to run it in Konsole. So I guess that didn't work either.

I would uninstall it just for the time being til we can sort out libpython

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Btw, my Suse is 64-bit, and the .rpm file I have is i586. If I can somehow get my hands on that libpython2.5.so.1.0 file, would the i586 file still work?

I thought the rpm i linked you to was 64bit? I could be mistaken though i have been awake a long time. It probably isn't best to try it a the moment to save this getting really messy









Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
I am not disagreeing with you about flash i just want to point out that Suse64 is not pure 64bit like Arch64 is, Suse comes pre-installed with 32bit libs for compatibility reasons such as this
http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/in...howtopic=32536


Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Seeing the link you provided, I got a couple questions:

Take my Suse x64 for example. It is a 64-bit OS, correct? But it uses libraries for compatibility with 32-bit. The OS itself is still 64-bit, yes?

And also: all the programs I have that are installed as <filename>x86_64.rpm are "actually" 64-bit, right?

Yes Suse and all the programs you have installed are 64bit but you also have installed some 32bit libs for important programs so that at a push 32bit programs can be run.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Ok, officially annoyed... I'm locked out of root by default. Lovely. I can change / set the root password through the GUI after I enter my regular account password... again. (Didn't I already auth when I logged in???) Why is it that any admin type settings require re-authing, this is EXACTLY like UAC on Vista, only more annoying because it doesn't trust your existing auth.

The weird part is that the terminal keeps me locked out:

[email protected]:/etc$ su root
Password:
su: Authentication failure
Sorry.
[email protected]:/etc$ passwd root
passwd: You may not view or modify password information for root.

After changing it in the GUI, I can now su to root no problems (since now I actually know what the password is).

Pretty soon the scanner and printers will start getting plugged in.... wish ubuntu luck ;-)

This is one of the reasons Ubuntu sucks imo.

For every command you want to do as root you need to put sudo before it, There is no su command on Ubuntu.

Are you trying to install the rpm from the Exaile site or the one from packman?


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Seems that it will let you do it once you set the passwd via the GUI (grrr....)

[email protected]:~$ su
Password:
[email protected]:/home/brian#

[email protected]:~$ su root
Password:
[email protected]:/home/brian#


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Yeah, I know normally it's just "su" and I tried that first. su assumes you want root, but since that didn't work I tried being explicit (both ways should work fine). My issue was that the original install didn't prompt me to enter a root account password, and I hadn't found it yet in the GUI. I get concerned that I don't know what the default password is for root, since the account clearly exists in /etc/passwd. I'm sure they did something random, but who knows. I didn't like that I didn't get prompted for escalation of privileges within the terminal if that was required to set the root password. Overall probably minor, and just because I'm used to other distros. I understand why it prompts for the password, just don't see the point if my user is already part of the admin group and the password I entered @ login is the same as the one that's letting me into the settings. UAC in Vista is basically the same deal (minus the double login), only from what I can tell slightly more secure as it doesn't continue to trust after the first auth.

Overall starting to get more used to it and it's not horrible... though I will say that so far it has prompted me twice for reboots due to driver install or in this most recent case just due to "normal updates"... not sure where you guys get the idea this doesn't require reboots, cause it's telling me I need to.

The only thing that should need reboots are kernel ugrades. Sometimes it is just easier/quicker to reboot than to type in a few commands to restart daemons, load new modules/drivers etc especially as it is a distro with user friendliness in mind.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Out of curiosity.... if I put Linux on a separate drive on my computer, will there be any slow downs in either OS or driver conflicts?

And I just ordered 64 bit Vista, but I have 32 bit right now. I just installed it... would there be any problems upgrading it? I want the best performance I can get so if that means I need to do a fresh install I can. I just need the advice.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
Out of curiosity.... if I put Linux on a separate drive on my computer, will there be any slow downs in either OS or driver conflicts?

And I just ordered 64 bit Vista, but I have 32 bit right now. I just installed it... would there be any problems upgrading it? I want the best performance I can get so if that means I need to do a fresh install I can. I just need the advice.

All should be fine.

A fresh install of Windows is always recommended


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

The weird thing about Ubuntu is that (I think) it's intended to not have an actual traditional "root" account. I think that's part of what's supposed to make it more user friendly.

But like I said, if all that fails, there's "sudo -i (then your password on the next line)" for your own account.


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Seems that it will let you do it once you set the passwd via the GUI (grrr....)

No need for the GUI for that...

$ sudo passwd root

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
This is one of the reasons Ubuntu sucks imo.

For every command you want to do as root you need to put sudo before it, There is no su command on Ubuntu.

lolwut

[email protected]:~$ sudo passwd root
Enter new UNIX password:
Retype new UNIX password:
passwd: password updated successfully
[email protected]:~$ su
Password:
[email protected]:/home/kloroformd#

Note that this is the first time I've logged in as root on my system. I don't see a problem here...


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
The weird thing about Ubuntu is that (I think) it's intended to not have an actual traditional "root" account. I think that's part of what's supposed to make it more user friendly.

But like I said, if all that fails, there's "sudo -i (then your password on the next line)" for your own account.

That's exactly how it works and it's ******ed if you ask me.


----------



## Brutuz

I'm one person who'd be in Linux if it had games, although I have used it (Not on this C2D yet) both times I had problems with the mouse/drivers/it killing my WD HDD.


----------



## archangelabove

I'm in the process of becoming a penguin myself.. If only I could get this ndiswrapper crap to work.. GRR.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Ok... scanner results:

I plugged in my Canon LiDE 35 Scanner (old, nothing fancy) and tried to scan... to my amazement it just worked. Big props here.

Printer, plugged in my Canon ip5200, it works too. This is cool. Bad news is I can't do ANY of the maintenance such as cleaning the print head, the bottom plate, etc. These are things you MUST do to keep output quality high. I'm impressed that it worked out of the box, but not impressed that I still NEED a Windows box.

I also tried Evolution mail a little bit. So far not impressed. Seems like a cheap poorly done knock off of Outlook. Seems usable, but I love Outlook 2007... and the searches with Outlook are MUCH better.

Overall OS seems pretty responsive, not great, but not bad either. As I recall I think XP "felt" smoother, but not necessarily "faster" if that makes sense. It just seems to be a bit jerky here and there, even with all resource consumption pretty low.

Does anyone know how to get the mouse scroll to be "smooth" like Windows? Also I'd love to configure the rest of the buttons on my mouse, but see no options for it.

Overall, I've gotta say, I'm impressed. Linux desktops have come a long way. I still go back to Vista and like nearly everything about it better... but this is no longer a "joke" of a Desktop OS. Last time I played with this stuff it flat out sucked. It doesn't now.


----------



## Sir Humpsalot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Overall, I've gotta say, I'm impressed. Linux desktops have come a long way. I still go back to Vista and like nearly everything about it better... but this is no longer a "joke" of a Desktop OS. Last time I played with this stuff it flat out sucked. It doesn't now.

On day #2 through #5 with linux I had almost exactly the same sentiment. Now I actually like a lot of things about Linux. As many folks have said, "it's not windows. It's different". With a little more time I think you'll start to look at a few things in linux and say, "Hey.. that's pretty cool..." And that's part of what made me hop on the bandwagon. The only thing linux needs to be useable (not the best, but "useable") by the mainstream is drivers for things like printers. So basically, so long as people are adamant about using Linux, there will be a market for the drivers. Sooner or later, it's going to be filled. I hear what you're saying about running the cleaning programs and whatnots for your printer. On my canon MP780, I can run all of those options through the LCD menu, so it's not strictly necessary. Again, it's not really any harder than doing it on the computer, just different... just gotta get used to it (just like I had to get used to a lot of weird windows ways of doing things...)

And as for you gamers, not that the games are great or anything, but... it is cool to talk to windows users and tell them, "hey, you know that if you run Linux such as Kubuntu or Mint or whatever, you can go to the start menu where it says "Add/Remove programs" and download full versions of free games?"

I don't kid anybody suggesting they are as good as the games you pay for, but am I crazy for thinking it's the best free (adware and virus-free) collection of games on the 'net?


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Sir Humpsalot*


On day #2 through #5 with linux I had almost exactly the same sentiment. Now I actually like a lot of things about Linux. As many folks have said, "it's not windows. It's different". With a little more time I think you'll start to look at a few things in linux and say, "Hey.. that's pretty cool..." And that's part of what made me hop on the bandwagon. The only thing linux needs to be useable (not the best, but "useable") by the mainstream is drivers for things like printers. So basically, so long as people are adamant about using Linux, there will be a market for the drivers. Sooner or later, it's going to be filled. I hear what you're saying about running the cleaning programs and whatnots for your printer. On my canon MP780, I can run all of those options through the LCD menu, so it's not strictly necessary. Again, it's not really any harder than doing it on the computer, just different... just gotta get used to it (just like I had to get used to a lot of weird windows ways of doing things...)

And as for you gamers, not that the games are great or anything, but... it is cool to talk to windows users and tell them, "hey, you know that if you run Linux such as Kubuntu or Mint or whatever, you can go to the start menu where it says "Add/Remove programs" and download full versions of free games?"

I don't kid anybody suggesting they are as good as the games you pay for, but am I crazy for thinking it's the best free (adware and virus-free) collection of games on the 'net?


Nexuiz is a pretty darn good game if you ask me. I'd play it more often if CS: S didn't work so well in WINE.









I advise anyone that finds problems with their hardware being supported in Linux to call and complain to the device manufacturer. If they get annoyed enough, they'll listen.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Well, we can all hope Unreal 3 gets a version out that natively supports Linux sometime soon.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
Well, we can all hope Unreal 3 gets a version out that natively supports Linux sometime soon.

It doesn't already? I haven't read up on it, but I thought there was a native UT3 Linux version.

Nexuiz is fun


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KloroFormd* 
No need for the GUI for that...

$ sudo passwd root

lolwut

[email protected]:~$ sudo passwd root
Enter new UNIX password:
Retype new UNIX password:
passwd: password updated successfully
[email protected]:~$ su
Password:
[email protected]:/home/kloroformd#

Note that this is the first time I've logged in as root on my system. I don't see a problem here...

Last time i used it there was no su whatsoever? In fairness it is quite a while since i used *buntu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
I also tried Evolution mail a little bit. So far not impressed. Seems like a cheap poorly done knock off of Outlook. Seems usable, but I love Outlook 2007... and the searches with Outlook are MUCH better.

Claws-mail is a relly good mail client.

@THG - How are you getting on with exaile?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

biatchi said:


> Claws-mail is a relly good mail client.
> 
> Evolution always seemed kinda "cheap" to me...
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *biatchi*
> 
> 
> @THG - How are you getting on with exaile?
> 
> 
> Until I get that libpython2.5... file, I don't think I can get this thing working. I'm stumped at how even by installing this through the package manager that it won't work. I think it might also have something to do with my OS being 64-bit.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Until I get that libpython2.5... file, I don't think I can get this thing working. I'm stumped at how even by installing this through the package manager that it won't work. I think it might also have something to do with my OS being 64-bit.


Unistall exaile
install this rpm http://packman.links2linux.org/downl...m.2.x86_64.rpm and let me know what happens.

If it doesn't work we can install exaile from source.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Unistall exaile
install this rpm http://packman.links2linux.org/downl...m.2.x86_64.rpm and let me know what happens.

If it doesn't work we can install exaile from source.


Nope. When I click on the RPM and try to install through YaST, it loads my repos then automatically closes (Linux seems to have a tendency to "just not load things" sometimes.

When I do sudo rpm -i <file.rpm>, it says it's already installed, but execing exaile in the Konsole tells me all those plugins aren't found (all the gstreamer plugins like.. well I saw libreaddvd or something like that and some others.)


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Nope. When I click on the RPM and try to install through YaST, it loads my repos then automatically closes (Linux seems to have a tendency to "just not load things" sometimes.

When I do sudo rpm -i <file.rpm>, it says it's already installed, but execing exaile in the Konsole tells me all those plugins aren't found (all the gstreamer plugins like.. well I saw libreaddvd or something like that and some others.)


Could you paste the output of what it says in konsole please.


----------



## Sistum Id

Well so Ubuntu has been a week now I think its ok but it wont run the main game I run and running it tho a virtual desktop or windows emulator makes it slow. Ill keep it on my test laptop because compiz-fuzion is awesome and turns heads. But my skydome image turns black and causes images to load with a black screen so I have to restart my laptop every 2-3 hours.

I got one more option and that is to do a dual boot on my main machine. But thats gonna take a whole day...maybe next week Ill try it out.

Other then that its been one hell of a hassle.


----------



## lattyware

Wow, come back to 4 more pages of posts. I have tried to read through them all, but won't respond, as most stuff has been answered by others.

As to the root thing, I find Sudo far better than switching to root. For one, when using graphical applications, you can do gksudo <app> and launch it within your current graphical login - traditionally requiring you to logout and login as root. It also means you are not running commands you do not need to run as root as root.

If you want to be able to run applications as root silently (without entering your passwords) you can do this by editing your sudoers file (do visudo and edit your user's line to be username ALL = NOPASSWD: ALL) - of course, this means anyone could walk up to your PC and run stuff as root. (The sudoers file is extremely powerful. Say you want user a to be able to launch firestarter, but it requires root privileges you don't want them to have, you can set up suders to allow them to run Firestarter as root without entering a password, and only that.)

If you want a root terminal, just do 'sudo bash'.

There are all of your problems solved. I love sudo, and use it on my arch install.

Overall starting to get more used to it and it's not horrible... though I will say that so far it has prompted me twice for reboots due to driver install or in this most recent case just due to "normal updates"... not sure where you guys get the idea this doesn't require reboots, cause it's telling me I need to. <- Actually, it just generally needs to restart X, which can be done with ctrl+alt+backspace - it's just easiest and safest for the end user to reboot. Most of the time it is simply things will not be in use till you restart, not you need too.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Actually, it just generally needs to restart X, which can be done with ctrl+alt+backspace - it's just easiest and safest for the end user to reboot. Most of the time it is simply things will not be in use till you restart, not you need too.

In this case there was in fact a kernel update, so the reboot was required to load the changes to the kernel.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Does ctrl + alt + bksp actually safely log you out, or does it force-kill everything? Because I just do a log out from the menu, and that restarts X also in what I know to be a "safe" manner (I actually hear the DE make its "logout" chime and stuff starts to shut down instead of abruptly bringing me to the login page.)


----------



## RoddimusPrime

I have to admit a good book for new linux users (well, for all general purposes) would be nice. Seeing all these posts and not really getting into the guts of linux before would lead me to believe a nice source of literature would be a great help. Any recommendations? Keep in mind I am a tech head, know some programming, etc., but there is simply too much out there to always know the ins and outs of everything.


----------



## cbosdell

I've tried Linux several times and It's never worked out. There's always something not working right and I just don't see any advantage to it besides the freeness. At least Windows Vista works out of the box for me.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


I have to admit a good book for new linux users (well, for all general purposes) would be nice. Seeing all these posts and not really getting into the guts of linux before would lead me to believe a nice source of literature would be a great help. Any recommendations? Keep in mind I am a tech head, know some programming, etc., but there is simply too much out there to always know the ins and outs of everything.


Whatever you do, make sure the book you're getting goes over the actual OS, not "how to use firefox" or "how to use open office" or something else that would be no use to users of our caliber. Look for something that's gonna help you get into the gets of the OS. I'd get a command book for reference to start, like maybe Linux for Dummies (reference spiral-bound book, not the big book.)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *cbosdell*


I've tried Linux several times and It's never worked out. There's always something not working right and I just don't see any advantage to it besides the freeness. At least Windows Vista works out of the box for me.


Read the OP... You'll see that your excuse was already covered; you're gumming up the thread with windows justifications we've already heard!


----------



## thenailedone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
I have to admit a good book for new linux users (well, for all general purposes) would be nice. Seeing all these posts and not really getting into the guts of linux before would lead me to believe a nice source of literature would be a great help. Any recommendations? Keep in mind I am a tech head, know some programming, etc., but there is simply too much out there to always know the ins and outs of everything.

You can have a look here... (I can't remember where I got this link originally but I'm sure it was from a OC member...)

I am also currently busy working my way through this free on-line course (on the fundamentals and so far so good







)


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
I have to admit a good book for new linux users (well, for all general purposes) would be nice. Seeing all these posts and not really getting into the guts of linux before would lead me to believe a nice source of literature would be a great help. Any recommendations? Keep in mind I am a tech head, know some programming, etc., but there is simply too much out there to always know the ins and outs of everything.

I have always found just using it, and whenever I need to do something and I don't know how to do it, googling my problem, works better than any book for learning. It's how I learn most stuff from programming languages to problem solving.


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Does ctrl + alt + bksp actually safely log you out, or does it force-kill everything? Because I just do a log out from the menu, and that restarts X also in what I know to be a "safe" manner (I actually hear the DE make its "logout" chime and stuff starts to shut down instead of abruptly bringing me to the login page.)


If my understanding is correct, it forces X to restart immediately, and any processes that rely on X are forced to close because X is no longer there.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Thanks for the links and advice. I should be getting my second internal drive pretty soon.

Googling for specified interests/problems always helps and then there is always forums like this one you can ask for help on. But I like to have an overall understanding of the command lines, how the stuff really works, etc.... if I understand the processes and command lines, etc. then I should be better enabled to figure out problems on my own by being more educated.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


Thanks for the links and advice. I should be getting my second internal drive pretty soon.

Googling for specified interests/problems always helps and then there is always forums like this one you can ask for help on. But I like to have an overall understanding of the command lines, how the stuff really works, etc.... if I understand the processes and command lines, etc. then I should be better enabled to figure out problems on my own by being more educated.


Fair enough. I guess I am too poor for books







Some of them are ridiculously expensive :'(.


----------



## endo

i have used linux for 8 months now. i just recently had to install windows for work and to my surprise my wife never wants on windows. she loves linux and tells me after i have been on windows to make sure she can get into ubuntu.

i think im a little of both types of linux user described in the OP.

also gaming isnt my life so i found many more things to use linux fo then just checking my email. and after switching to linux i now have no pirated software on my computer.


----------



## 003

Quote:



1) Package Managers / Free Software.
One of the things I hear most when people are saying why they do not want to switch is 'But I can't run my software!'. The thing people do not realise is there is nigh always a better, free alternative. Under Ubuntu to install software, you just head to System -> Admin -> Synaptic Package Manager, do a search, then click on install on anything that takes your fancy, then hit apply. And boosh, there you have some new software. It's very fast and easy. Sure as hell beats Googleing 'Freeware <thing>', then searching through a million pieces of shareware, then installing five to find one that works, then finding none do, so going out and buying something for Â£40.


There is _not_ always a better, free alternative. In fact, in most cases, there isn't. Optical disc burning in Linux is usually done with K3b. K3b is all right, but it dosen't hold a candle to Nero Burning Rom. And the Linux version of nero is good, but oh look, it's not free, and still is missing some features that are present in the windows version. Then there's OpenOffice.org. It sucks. It's slow as a dog, it's ugly, and is just plain missing many simple but useful features in MS office. Heck even office 2008 with all it's eye candy and annoying stuff is still faster than openoffice. It is simply quite rough and unpolished. Then there's music players. The best one in windows is foobar2000. There are easy to use music players in linux, but _none_ of them offer the level of control and sound quality of foobar2000, not even AquaLung, which most people probably have never heard of. And there is pretty much no way to use ASIO output in linux. Why do I know about all this? Because I've been there, done that. Then there is The GIMP. It's a nice image manipulation program and has a lot of good stuff considering that it's free. But just like the case of K3b, it _pales_ in comparison to Photoshop.

Quote:



2) New Exciting Things
With Windows, you get a new release every 3 or so years â€" Ubuntu has a release cycle at 6 months, and new software is constantly released. This means new features are introduces fast, and you get more out of your PC constantly. (Of course, if you are looking for reliability and stability, there are Distros with far slower release cycles).


 You mean new exciting bloatware. God if you think Vista is bloatware, you will die when you install a distro like Ubuntu. It comes with so much stuff it's not funny, 90% is never, ever used. Microsoft dosen't release Windows XP every few months because they don't NEED to. XP is just the base OS, with very few programs included with it, and it is quite a small OS. Try to shrink a linux distro down to the size of XP, and you will get endless dependency problems. The reason most linux distros are so bloated is because they try to include all the software that you would reasonably want to use more or less. Why is this? Because if they didn't, you would quickly go to hell in a hand basket trying to download and install the stuff you needed. Lets say you want to install a good video player on a barebones distro and have hardware acceleration and everything you would come to expect of a modern computer. You download the source code for the program you want (because there is no precompiled package for your distro), and you go to compile it. Uh oh, first you'll need libGCC, libXYZ, libABC, libbtk2, libC++ and a few dozen other libraries. And much to your dismay, about half of these libraries only come as source code as well, and each also requires it's own set of 20 different libraries. Now lets say you get them all compiled and installed. Now you're ready to install that video player (didn't forget about that, did you?)!! Right? Wrong. For whatever reason, it still dosen't work.

Quote:



3) Compiz Fuzion
Yes, the 5-year-old in us all wants to just look at cool effects. It may serve very little in the way of anything useful, but Compiz Fuzion looks so cool it is hard to fault it. If you have a powerful graphics card, why only use it for Gaming?


XGL is an annoying resource hog that just makes simple tasks take longer than they ordinarily would, and is a direct rip off of OSX. Then again, what isn't?

Quote:



4) Customisation
With Windows, everything is pretty set. You get one thing to do each task and that is it. Whatever Windows does is what you get, unless you use some hack or workaround. With Linux, you get a huge amount of customisation â€" don't like your theme? change it. Don't like the icons? change them. Don't like your File Manager? change it. Don't like your Desktop Environment, change that too, you can change everything even up to which distro you use, and even roll your own distro.


 Omg, I can't believe I would ever recommend something like this, but in response to this quote:
http://www.stardock.com/
But you don't even need crap like that in windows. You don't need to change the theme because it just work. You don't need a new desktop environment because there are no compatibility problems with it. You don't need a new file manager because the one built in to windows is pretty damn good. But if you want, there are many different ones you can get. Talking about file managers reminds me of the days of DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1. Ever heard of nLite? Everything that linux can do, windows can do better and faster, save for a few very specific things that people on OCN would never need to bother with.

Quote:



5) Speed
Linux is a faster operating system. Windows, especially once it has been installed for a while, takes ages. Even once you are logged in, Windows tends to be loading for a while in which time you can do nothing. Other advantages like not having to Defragment your hard disk courtesy of the Ext3 filesystem is great.


 This will be pretty short.







Linux is _not_ faster than Windows XP. It is much, much slower. It takes forever to load everything on boot up, and once you've booted to the desktop, speed is just average. It's nothing special, and XP is faster. I admit I've never used Gentoo installed from a stage 1 tarball. But let's keep something in mind, Windows XP is faster than Linux WITHOUT being compiled on your machine. If it was, I can only imagine how fast it would be. The ext3 file system is not perfect and is still slower than a freshly defragmented NTFS volume, which can be had all the time with something like diskeeper.

Quote:



6) Reliability
Let's face it. Windows crashes. A lot. XP seemed more stable than before, and Vista is OK, but I have never had a problem (that I have not caused myself) with Linux. It is nice knowing that you are not facing a crash.


I don't know where everybody gets the idea that windows has reliability problems. Maybe it's because 92% of the people in the world use it and there is a much greater chance someone will run into a problem? Or maybe they are using Vista? On XP x64, I have _never_ had a blue screen or OS crash. The closest I have come to that is hard locks and resets due to an unstable overclock. I admit, there are a lot of poorly coded programs out there that are for windows that can crash, but when they do, you just hit ctrl+alt+del and end it's process. This is not the fault of windows, it's the fault of the person that made the program. Linux is about equal in this respect -- the main OS does not crash, but there are tons of unpolished and buggy programs that do.

Trust me, I want to like Linux, but can't until the problems I brought up above are fully addressed. It's really simple as that. I have used linux for over a month. The whole time I was pretending to like it and thought it would just "click" with me. It never did, and I missed simple functions I could do in windows that were either broken or didn't exist in linux.

And I have not even brought up games, I could write several pages on that.

If there is anybody that really wants to use Linux for whatever reason, do not go with one of the big distros. They are not the best. The best Distro I have come across in my search to find one equal to or better than windows is Kanotix. Link:
http://www.kanotix.com/changelang-eng.html


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *endo* 
and after switching to linux i now have no pirated software on my computer.

Yeah, I don't have any on Windows either. That's a personal choice, and there are some programs that are SOLD that run on Linux too.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *endo*


i have used linux for 8 months now. i just recently had to install windows for work and to my surprise my wife never wants on windows. she loves linux and tells me after i have been on windows to make sure she can get into ubuntu.

i think im a little of both types of linux user described in the OP.

also gaming isnt my life so i found many more things to use linux fo then just checking my email. and after switching to linux i now have no pirated software on my computer.


Nice









Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


There is _not_ always a better, free alternative. In fact, in most cases, there isn't. Optical disc burning in Linux is usually done with K3b. K3b is all right, but it dosen't hold a candle to Nero Burning Rom. And the Linux version of nero is good, but oh look, it's not free, and still is missing some features that are present in the windows version. Then there's OpenOffice.org. It sucks. It's slow as a dog, it's ugly, and is just plain missing many simple but useful features in MS office. Heck even office 2008 with all it's eye candy and annoying stuff is still faster than openoffice. It is simply quite rough and unpolished. Then there's music players. The best one in windows is foobar2000. There are easy to use music players in linux, but _none_ of them offer the level of control and sound quality of foobar2000, not even AquaLung, which most people probably have never heard of. And there is pretty much no way to use ASIO output in linux. Why do I know about all this? Because I've been there, done that. Then there is The GIMP. It's a nice image manipulation program and has a lot of good stuff considering that it's free. But just like the case of K3b, it _pales_ in comparison to Photoshop.


What exactly does Nero do that K3b doesn't? Or to a lesser extent Brasero, Graveman, Gnomebaker, XFburn? You go on to talk about bloat yet you use Nero for burning stuff? Why not use something lighter?
Sure OpenOffice can sometimes take a while to load on some setups but i disagree it is slower and less useful to use.
Foobar is awesome and you might be right that there isn't and opensource alternative that has the same feature set.
For ASIO ouput can't you do what you want to with Jack? QjackCtl is nice for controlling Jack. 
There is probably no software (oss or paid) on the planet as good as Photoshop for photo manipulation. The Gimp is ok although is can be a PITA to use, Inkscape is good as is Xara lx

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


You mean new exciting bloatware. God if you think Vista is bloatware, you will die when you install a distro like Ubuntu. It comes with so much stuff it's not funny, 90% is never, ever used. Microsoft dosen't release Windows XP every few months because they don't NEED to. XP is just the base OS, with very few programs included with it, and it is quite a small OS. Try to shrink a linux distro down to the size of XP, and you will get endless dependency problems. The reason most linux distros are so bloated is because they try to include all the software that you would reasonably want to use more or less. Why is this? Because if they didn't, you would quickly go to hell in a hand basket trying to download and install the stuff you needed. Lets say you want to install a good video player on a barebones distro and have hardware acceleration and everything you would come to expect of a modern computer. You download the source code for the program you want (because there is no precompiled package for your distro), and you go to compile it. Uh oh, first you'll need libGCC, libXYZ, libABC, libbtk2, libC++ and a few dozen other libraries. And much to your dismay, about half of these libraries only come as source code as well, and each also requires it's own set of 20 different libraries. Now lets say you get them all compiled and installed. Now you're ready to install that video player (didn't forget about that, did you?)!! Right? Wrong. For whatever reason, it still dosen't work.


Are you having a laugh that XP is a small lightweight os? How many services does does it come with that are 
A: Completley uneeded
B: A chronic security risk ie.UPNP

Seriously how many people use a distro that doesn't have binaries for just about anything you could need? I doubt anybody taking up this challenge is likely to use a source based distro and have to deal with messing around with dependecies on a stripped down distro.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


XGL is an annoying resource hog that just makes simple tasks take longer than they ordinarily would, and is a direct rip off of OSX. Then again, what isn't?


 XGL is depreciated now and you should use Compiz-fusion.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


Omg, I can't believe I would ever recommend something like this, but in response to this quote:
http://www.stardock.com/
But you don't even need crap like that in windows. You don't need to change the theme because it just work. You don't need a new desktop environment because there are no compatibility problems with it. You don't need a new file manager because the one built in to windows is pretty damn good. But if you want, there are many different ones you can get. Talking about file managers reminds me of the days of DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1. Ever heard of nLite? Everything that linux can do, windows can do better and faster, save for a few very specific things that people on OCN would never need to bother with.


So you are saying that themes need to be changed in Linux because they don't work?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


This will be pretty short.







Linux is _not_ faster than Windows XP. It is much, much slower. It takes forever to load everything on boot up, and once you've booted to the desktop, speed is just average. It's nothing special, and XP is faster. I admit I've never used Gentoo installed from a stage 1 tarball. But let's keep something in mind, Windows XP is faster than Linux WITHOUT being compiled on your machine. If it was, I can only imagine how fast it would be. The ext3 file system is not perfect and is still slower than a freshly defragmented NTFS volume, which can be had all the time with something like diskeeper.


I'm sorry but got







Windows is faster? I have XP and Linux dual boot on a lappy and I'm sorry xp is no faster than Linux and it's even on the first part of the disk.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


I don't know where everybody gets the idea that windows has reliability problems. Maybe it's because 92% of the people in the world use it and there is a much greater chance someone will run into a problem? Or maybe they are using Vista? On XP x64, I have _never_ had a blue screen or OS crash. The closest I have come to that is hard locks and resets due to an unstable overclock. I admit, there are a lot of poorly coded programs out there that are for windows that can crash, but when they do, you just hit ctrl+alt+del and end it's process. This is not the fault of windows, it's the fault of the person that made the program. Linux is about equal in this respect -- the main OS does not crash, but there are tons of unpolished and buggy programs that do.


Sure there are buggy programs for both but you know that on Linux it isn't going to take lots of stuff with it when it crashes unlike Explore will on Windows









Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


Trust me, I want to like Linux, but can't until the problems I brought up above are fully addressed. It's really simple as that. I have used linux for over a month. The whole time I was pretending to like it and thought it would just "click" with me. It never did, and I missed simple functions I could do in windows that were either broken or didn't exist in linux.


So you have used Linux for a month? How long have you used Windows? I'm not going to claim Linux is perfect in fact it has quite a few problems but most problems people have with Linux can be solved by hitting up Google or having more patience and a willingness to learn and not have your hand held.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


There is _not_ always a better, free alternative. In fact, in most cases, there isn't. Optical disc burning in Linux is usually done with K3b. K3b is all right, but it dosen't hold a candle to Nero Burning Rom. And the Linux version of nero is good, but oh look, it's not free, and still is missing some features that are present in the windows version. Then there's OpenOffice.org. It sucks. It's slow as a dog, it's ugly, and is just plain missing many simple but useful features in MS office. Heck even office 2008 with all it's eye candy and annoying stuff is still faster than openoffice. It is simply quite rough and unpolished. Then there's music players. The best one in windows is foobar2000. There are easy to use music players in linux, but_none_ of them offer the level of control and sound quality of foobar2000, not even AquaLung, which most people probably have never heard of. And there is pretty much no way to use ASIO output in linux. Why do I know about all this? Because I've been there, done that. Then there is The GIMP. It's a nice image manipulation program and has a lot of good stuff considering that it's free. But just like the case of K3b, it _pales_ in comparison to Photoshop.


I did say 'nigh' - and Photoshop is one of the things that I admit can not be replaced (although for a lot of people, the Gimp can do the job - everyone who uses Photoshop elements should be fine with the Gimp feature-wise.
OpenOffice.org is fine and fast for me, even on older systems. It's not the fastest program in the world, but just as fast as office. There are plenty of burning apps - what features does nero have that you don't have in Gnomebaker, say.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


You mean new exciting bloatware. God if you think Vista is bloatware, you will die when you install a distro like Ubuntu. It comes with so much stuff it's not funny, 90% is never, ever used. Microsoft dosen't release Windows XP every few months because they don't NEED to. XP is just the base OS, with very few programs included with it, and it is quite a small OS. Try to shrink a linux distro down to the size of XP, and you will get endless dependency problems. The reason most linux distros are so bloated is because they try to include all the software that you would reasonably want to use more or less. Why is this? Because if they didn't, you would quickly go to hell in a hand basket trying to download and install the stuff you needed. Lets say you want to install a good video player on a barebones distro and have hardware acceleration and everything you would come to expect of a modern computer. You download the source code for the program you want (because there is no precompiled package for your distro), and you go to compile it. Uh oh, first you'll need libGCC, libXYZ, libABC, libbtk2, libC++ and a few dozen other libraries. And much to your dismay, about half of these libraries only come as source code as well, and each also requires it's own set of 20 different libraries. Now lets say you get them all compiled and installed. Now you're ready to install that video player (didn't forget about that, did you?)!! Right? Wrong. For whatever reason, it still dosen't work.


Ubuntu is not bloated. It comes with a lot of software, but that does not slow it down. It runs fine. If you want something lighter, there are loads of distros out there. Most distros have repos full of software. In ubuntu or xubuntu (which should be light enough for you) sudo apt-get install mplayer would do that for you. It works fine and is easy and fast.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


XGL is an annoying resource hog that just makes simple tasks take longer than they ordinarily would, and is a direct rip off of OSX. Then again, what isn't?


The effects are not light on resources, but they are not meant to be. If you like effects, then you take that slight hit, you are not forced to have them. What do you want? Effects without any performance loss? please.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


Omg, I can't believe I would ever recommend something like this, but in response to this quote:
http://www.stardock.com/
But you don't even need crap like that in windows. You don't need to change the theme because it just work. You don't need a new desktop environment because there are no compatibility problems with it. You don't need a new file manager because the one built in to windows is pretty damn good. But if you want, there are many different ones you can get. Talking about file managers reminds me of the days of DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1. Ever heard of nLite? Everything that linux can do, windows can do better and faster, save for a few very specific things that people on OCN would never need to bother with.


... Customization is good. You are saying that having more choices (that you can, but don't have to touch) is a bad thing because you are happy with what you have? I'm sorry, but that is just stupid.
As to Windows doing anything Linux can do better and faster? Please.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


This will be pretty short.







Linux is _not_ faster than Windows XP. It is much, much slower. It takes forever to load everything on boot up, and once you've booted to the desktop, speed is just average. It's nothing special, and XP is faster. I admit I've never used Gentoo installed from a stage 1 tarball. But let's keep something in mind, Windows XP is faster than Linux WITHOUT being compiled on your machine. If it was, I can only imagine how fast it would be. The ext3 file system is not perfect and is still slower than a freshly defragmented NTFS volume, which can be had all the time with something like diskeeper.


I'm sorry, but Windows is not faster than say, Xubuntu. That's complete rubbish. Arch linux runs extremely fast. Vanilla Ubuntu isn't even slower than XP. Time booting into windows and launching a web browser, email client, and IM client, and starting using them, then the same in Linux, and 99% of Linux distros will do it faster. Your first statement is ridiculous, seeing as 'Linux' alone is just the Kernel, and so without a desktop interface, etc.. it would thrash windows. It still does with one.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


I don't know where everybody gets the idea that windows has reliability problems. Maybe it's because 92% of the people in the world use it and there is a much greater chance someone will run into a problem? Or maybe they are using Vista? On XP x64, I have _never_ had a blue screen or OS crash. The closest I have come to that is hard locks and resets due to an unstable overclock. I admit, there are a lot of poorly coded programs out there that are for windows that can crash, but when they do, you just hit ctrl+alt+del and end it's process. This is not the fault of windows, it's the fault of the person that made the program. Linux is about equal in this respect -- the main OS does not crash, but there are tons of unpolished and buggy programs that do.


I'm sorry, but Windows crashes all the time for me. I get crashes playing half life all of the time, the first time I booted into XP after an install and ran an update I got a BSOD, and many other occurrences.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


Trust me, I want to like Linux, but can't until the problems I brought up above are fully addressed. It's really simple as that. I have used linux for over a month. The whole time I was pretending to like it and thought it would just "click" with me. It never did, and I missed simple functions I could do in windows that were either broken or didn't exist in linux.


When did you do this, 10 years ago? Seriously, that is simply not true today.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


And I have not even brought up games, I could write several pages on that.


It is all about developer support. I'm not saying Linux has support for all games. But there is dual booting, and it is worth doing to do everything else under what is a better OS.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *003*


If there is anybody that really wants to use Linux for whatever reason, do not go with one of the big distros. They are not the best. The best Distro I have come across in my search to find one equal to or better than windows is Kanotix. Link:
http://www.kanotix.com/changelang-eng.html


I think that is bad advice. With the big distros, there is a larger userbase for support, and with most of them, the install is more streamlined and easy.


----------



## biatchi

Lol double pwnage


----------



## 003

Quote:



What exactly does Nero do that K3b doesn't? Or to a lesser extent Brasero, Graveman, Gnomebaker, XFburn? You go on to talk about bloat yet you use Nero for burning stuff? Why not use something lighter?
Sure OpenOffice can sometimes take a while to load on some setups but i disagree it is slower and less useful to use.
Foobar is awesome and you might be right that there isn't and opensource alternative that has the same feature set.
For ASIO ouput can't you do what you want to with Jack? QjackCtl is nice for controlling Jack.
There is probably no software (oss or paid) on the planet as good as Photoshop for photo manipulation. The Gimp is ok although is can be a PITA to use, Inkscape is good as is Xara lx[/B]


 Not sure about those other burning programs but k3b sure can't do this (which I use routinely when making special CDs):

Also, no burning program in linux has anything similar to nero's cd-dvd speed tool which scans disc quality for jitter, c1 and c2 errors and creates a graph, and also can go into advanced mode and scan for stuff that I don't even know about. I do not install everything included in nero, just the things I use. Frankly it is pretty hefty but nothing I have found replaces cd-dvd speed. Openoffice.org is slower in all the times I've used it. It takes a while to load, it feel very unpolished, and as I've said there are just tiny but useful features that office has that are missing in openoffice. MS word, powerpoint, excel (all version 2008) open almost instantly and don't need to have background processes constantly running in order for it to load fast like openoffice does. Yes, I know about Jack, and it would work, if not for the fact that my sound card is not supported (ESI [email protected]). I can get sound with it through the ALSA generic driver, but it sounds awful in linux and refuses to output natively in 44.1KHz (and yes, it fully supports this).

Quote:



Are you having a laugh that XP is a small lightweight os? How many services does does it come with that are
A: Completley uneeded
B: A chronic security risk ie.UPNP

Seriously how many people use a distro that doesn't have binaries for just about anything you could need? I doubt anybody taking up this challenge is likely to use a source based distro and have to deal with messing around with dependecies on a stripped down distro.


 Compared to many of the major distros that span multiple DVDs, yeah it is lightweight. Want it even smaller? Check out TinyXP. I go through and disable all the services that are unneeded and/or a security risk. Thats the thing, I don't like having binaries for everything you need, I like downloading and installing manually the latest versions of whatever programs I use, and if you choose not to install them along with the OS, then you DO run into all kinds of dependency problems. That is one of the major things that kills linux. Maybe if all you do is browse the web, use openoffice and play an occasional mp3 you will steer clear of them, but if you venture out of these activities, it is pretty much guaranteed you will have to hunt down libraries and compile finicky source code on multiple occasions.

Quote:



So you are saying that themes need to be changed in Linux because they don't work?


No, I was just pointing out that you don't NEED all those themes. Windows XP has a few built in. I don't use them and have themes totally disabled. If you really want mega eye candy themes in XP, you can still do it easily with software from stardock. But I don't do that, nor do I see the point in themes. An operating system is made for you to accomplish tasks, use the internet, play games on. The OS itself is not supposed be a game itself like all the new ones are these days with all the useless eye candy and themes and annoying animations, etc...

Quote:



I'm sorry but got Windows is faster? I have XP and Linux dual boot on a lappy and I'm sorry xp is no faster than Linux and it's even on the first part of the disk.


 I don't know what to say here... XP boots for me in about 13 seconds from power on to usable desktop. Linux takes forever, loading all the stuff it does without the GUI and you see all the stuff scrolling by ... then X starts and you see a new X desktop loading screen initializing services... it takes forever to start compared to XP. XP's 3D performance is faster, you don't need a benchmark to figure that one out. And starting programs is faster. It takes a number of seconds to start firefox for example in linux, in XP, it starts almost instantly the second it's clicked.

Quote:



I did say 'nigh' - and Photoshop is one of the things that I admit can not be replaced (although for a lot of people, the Gimp can do the job - everyone who uses Photoshop elements should be fine with the Gimp feature-wise.
OpenOffice.org is fine and fast for me, even on older systems. It's not the fastest program in the world, but just as fast as office. There are plenty of burning apps - what features does nero have that you don't have in Gnomebaker, say.


 Comments on openoffice and nero, see above. You don't mention foobar2000 or ASIO output.

Quote:



Ubuntu is not bloated. It comes with a lot of software, but that does not slow it down. It runs fine. If you want something lighter, there are loads of distros out there. Most distros have repos full of software. In ubuntu or xubuntu (which should be light enough for you) sudo apt-get install mplayer would do that for you. It works fine and is easy and fast.


 I have used Ubuntu a lot-- and I do believe it is bloated compared to XP. I know there are lighter distros, and if you read my post instead of attracting my legitimate criticisms of linux, you would see I do like one distro -- Kanotix. It's not one of the big ones, but it should be, it's the best one I've seen so far. As far as linux goes, stuff works pretty well, it manages to keep bloat to a minimum and in fact the only thing that stopped me from using it is no official hardware ALSA support for my sound card, which is indispensable for how I use my PC.

Quote:



The effects are not light on resources, but they are not meant to be. If you like effects, then you take that slight hit, you are not forced to have them. What do you want? Effects without any performance loss? please.


 I don't want any special effects. I know it can be disabled, I mentioned it because it was brought up because it was one of the main points of the OP.

Quote:



... Customization is good. You are saying that having more choices (that you can, but don't have to touch) is a bad thing because you are happy with what you have? I'm sorry, but that is just stupid.
As to Windows doing anything Linux can do better and faster? Please.


Windows is faster, see above. Linux better suites dedicated servers, because, if you run it with tried and true but outdated packages and keep everything in check, it is very, very stable. Unfortunately this type of environment only suits servers, military application and a select few other things. The ability to customize is good. The ability to customize, but also the ability to easily NOT have any extra themes you don't need at all is even better. Linux can do this, but it's more work than windows. If you want cool themes, the software from stardock will suit you well. I personally don't like these kinds of things as I already stated.

Quote:



I'm sorry, but Windows is not faster than say, Xubuntu. That's complete rubbish. Arch linux runs extremely fast. Vanilla Ubuntu isn't even slower than XP. Time booting into windows and launching a web browser, email client, and IM client, and starting using them, then the same in Linux, and 99% of Linux distros will do it faster. Your first statement is ridiculous, seeing as 'Linux' alone is just the Kernel, and so without a desktop interface, etc.. it would thrash windows. It still does with one.


. I think you know what I mean when I say Linux. Admittedly I have not used Arch Linux or Xubuntu, but programs in XP open almost the instant I click them, even multiple programs at the same time. This was not my experience at all with Ubuntu, or any distro I have tried. I do want to like linux and the day I can do everything I can on windows, I will switch. I frequently visit distrowatch to check up on version and package status of distros to see if they include anything revolutionary for me. I am not a linux hater, I am a realist.

Quote:



I'm sorry, but Windows crashes all the time for me. I get crashes playing half life all of the time, the first time I booted into XP after an install and ran an update I got a BSOD, and many other occurrences.


 BSODs and frequent crashes? Somehow I find that BS. I have never, ever had windows crash. I have had badly coded programs crash, but I can quit them with ctrl alt del. I have NEVER had a bsod. Explorer has never crashed. And FYI, if explorer does exit or crash, all that happens is the desktop disappears and any open file manager windows close for a few seconds, and it automatically restarts itself. Open programs are not affected.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Quite the interesting conversation. In the end each clearly has their preferences, but I can't help but at least know that Linux is free, better secured, and still sports many application/abilities that other OS's don't have or you have to pay quite a bit for. More developer support for those programs that do cost money would surely help Linux.

And depending on what you do you will need Adobe or other design programs that just do better on a Mac or Windows machine. Games still have the definitive edge on Windows.

Simple as that. For many people Linux would be good enough. For many others they would need to dual boot to get everything they want.

I believe if Linux had a larger user base and developer support that Linux would be beating Windows, but that is not the way things are.

In the end this thread was just meant for people to take a challenge by the poster and give Linux the genuine try. It was supposed to be a positive thread, not a flame war or bashing of Linux.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
In the end this thread was just meant for people to take a challenge by the poster and give Linux the genuine try. It was supposed to be a positive thread, not a flame war or bashing of Linux.

The funny thing is that the OP covered all the excuses that he doesn't want to hear, and that's all the defend-o-maniacs are giving. Clearly they did not read the OP and just came in here to "voice their opinion."


----------



## 003

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
The funny thing is that the OP covered all the excuses that he doesn't want to hear, and that's all the defend-o-maniacs are giving. Clearly they did not read the OP and just came in here to "voice their opinion."

He said he didn't want to hear "I can't be bothered. Windows works.", and went on to say, "that is true, and ignorance is bliss", as if to say windows users don't know about linux, are uninformed, and are missing out. I am pointing out how that is wrong, which is a valid thing to do.

The other thing was game support, which I avoided talking about, and lastly, losing programs. I pointed out that there are programs there are simply no replacement for in windows, and most of the other stuff I said, he did not say you could not say.

I am not a rabid linux hater who has hardly ever used it and blindly defends windows. I am an informed computer user who has extensive experience with both OSes, and giving reasons with valid arguments behind them.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

I don't think using Linux a month qualifies as extensive experience.

Further, alluding to your signature, in my opinion if you have a lot of Windows experience as I do then you would know XP 64 has many issues, even more so than Vista has at the moment. And more support is def. behind Vista at this time for taking care of issues.

I don't think you are a rabid Linux hater, and I think some of your arguments are just fine such as Photoshop, etc. But, alas rather than starting a bickering match I respect your opinion, but I don't see any need to hammer Linux beyond why it doesn't work for your personally or the known issues such as games and developer support.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
He said he didn't want to hear "I can't be bothered. Windows works.", and went on to say, "that is true, and ignorance is bliss", as if to say windows users don't know about linux, are uninformed, and are missing out. I am pointing out how that is wrong, which is a valid thing to do.

The other thing was game support, which I avoided talking about, and lastly, losing programs. I pointed out that there are programs there are simply no replacement for in windows, and most of the other stuff I said, he did not say you could not say.

I am not a rabid linux hater who has hardly ever used it and blindly defends windows. I am an informed computer user who has extensive experience with both OSes, and giving reasons with valid arguments behind them.

Well you said some valid things, and other things I thought were... weird... Like for example the fact that you can use any DE and themes is bad compared to windows' proprietary look. Then going on to say using 3rd party "skins" are comparable?

When you're changing the Linux look, it's all native. You're changing the actual case of the computer while all the same components remain inside. When you use skins for OSX or windows, you're just covering the same case.

And to call Ubuntu and its pre-installed stuff bloatware? Come on. You can take it out if you don't want it. And none of it slows down the computer. You can run it on a computer with 512MB of RAM, unlike OSX and vista.

I agree that there are some programs that have no replacement, such as Photoshop. Legally speaking, though, I don't know anyone who owns Photoshop.

And this compatibility, I don't credit windows for. Windows has compatibility, but it didn't invent compatibility.

Anyhow, as I've stated multiple times: this is an enthusiast's site. I think we should all be up to the challenge.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
I don't think using Linux a month qualifies as extensive experience.

Further, alluding to your signature, in my opinion if you have a lot of Windows experience as I do then you would know XP 64 has many issues, even more so than Vista has at the moment. And more support is def. behind Vista at this time for taking care of issues.

I don't think you are a rabid Linux hater, and I think some of your arguments are just fine such as Photoshop, etc. But, alas rather than starting a bickering match I respect your opinion, but I don't see any need to hammer Linux beyond why it doesn't work for your personally or the known issues such as games and developer support.

Nicely put.

I have a couple of issues with 003's last few comments but at 5:50am i really can't be bothered dissecting another big a$$ post.


----------



## 003

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime* 
I don't think using Linux a month qualifies as extensive experience.

Further, alluding to your signature, in my opinion if you have a lot of Windows experience as I do then you would know XP 64 has many issues, even more so than Vista has at the moment. And more support is def. behind Vista at this time for taking care of issues.

I don't think you are a rabid Linux hater, and I think some of your arguments are just fine such as Photoshop, etc. But, alas rather than starting a bickering match I respect your opinion, but I don't see any need to hammer Linux beyond why it doesn't work for your personally or the known issues such as games and developer support.

Please shoot as to what the issues with XP x64 are, I would like to hear what you have to way. Also, I never said that my experience with Linux was only a month. And I seriously do want to hear what you have to say about XP x64. It will be interesting, as I run XP x64.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Well you said some valid things, and other things I thought were... weird... Like for example the fact that you can use any DE and themes is bad compared to windows' proprietary look. Then going on to say using 3rd party "skins" are comparable?

When you're changing the Linux look, it's all native. You're changing the actual case of the computer while all the same components remain inside. When you use skins for OSX or windows, you're just covering the same case.

And to call Ubuntu and its pre-installed stuff bloatware? Come on. You can take it out if you don't want it. And none of it slows down the computer. You can run it on a computer with 512MB of RAM, unlike OSX and vista.

I agree that there are some programs that have no replacement, such as Photoshop. Legally speaking, though, I don't know anyone who owns Photoshop.

And this compatibility, I don't credit windows for. Windows has compatibility, but it didn't invent compatibility.

Anyhow, as I've stated multiple times: this is an enthusiast's site. I think we should all be up to the challenge.

Themes, skins... they both have the same end result, and since I don't use either of them in the first place, it's a moot point. Not to say other people won't be different. I already covered what happens if you strip down Ubuntu. I have tried all of this before, I am not clueless here. FYI, I used to run XP on a computer with 128mb of ram, and again, it can shrink smaller, have a look at TinyXP.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
Themes, skins... they both have the same end result, and since I don't use either of them in the first place, it's a moot point.

The end result with something like windowsblinds is a slower system. That's slapping one thing on top of the other.

The end result with using a different DE is a different "look" and whatever effects it will have on the system. You're taking out the old and putting in something new. You're not just "masking."

So if you still think they're on the same level, then you're wrong.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
I already covered what happens if you strip down Ubuntu.

Why do you need to strip it down? It comes with lots of pre-installed software but nothing that bogs down the system. It takes up HDD space and no RAM space.


----------



## 003

If you really want native theme support in XP without windowblinds, it is still possible. See here:
http://www.tgtsoft.com/prod_sxp.php

You can also get them for free, just get one of the patched uxtheme.dll files for XP. BTW, this is not illegal or piracy. It's the same thing as patching TCPIP.sys for more half open connections.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
Not sure about those other burning programs but k3b sure can't do this (which I use routinely when making special CDs):

Also, no burning program in linux has anything similar to nero's cd-dvd speed tool which scans disc quality for jitter, c1 and c2 errors and creates a graph, and also can go into advanced mode and scan for stuff that I don't even know about. I do not install everything included in nero, just the things I use. Frankly it is pretty hefty but nothing I have found replaces cd-dvd speed.

The first screen is definitely in gnomebaker. The other tool I have never used and cannot see a use for, and no, I do not know of an alternative, but a quick search comes up with this: http://qpxtool.sourceforge.net/ which looks like what you were looking for.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
Openoffice.org is slower in all the times I've used it. It takes a while to load, it feel very unpolished, and as I've said there are just tiny but useful features that office has that are missing in openoffice. MS word, powerpoint, excel (all version 2008) open almost instantly and don't need to have background processes constantly running in order for it to load fast like openoffice does. Yes, I know about Jack, and it would work, if not for the fact that my sound card is not supported (ESI [email protected]). I can get sound with it through the ALSA generic driver, but it sounds awful in linux and refuses to output natively in 44.1KHz (and yes, it fully supports this).

Openoffice feels very polished to me. It's been fast and responsive. I can't say much else. As to the sound issue, yes, some drivers are lacking, that is a problem, but most hardware tends to have decent support, and if Linux did become a bigger market share, then drivers would be written for it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
Compared to many of the major distros that span multiple DVDs, yeah it is lightweight. Want it even smaller? Check out TinyXP. I go through and disable all the services that are unneeded and/or a security risk. Thats the thing, I don't like having binaries for everything you need, I like downloading and installing manually the latest versions of whatever programs I use, and if you choose not to install them along with the OS, then you DO run into all kinds of dependency problems. That is one of the major things that kills linux. Maybe if all you do is browse the web, use openoffice and play an occasional mp3 you will steer clear of them, but if you venture out of these activities, it is pretty much guaranteed you will have to hunt down libraries and compile finicky source code on multiple occasions.

You can't compare something to the parts you want. If you want something lightweight, get a lightweight distro. Want it even smaller check out DSL? I guarantee you can't get Windows XP to 50MB (and you can go smaller than that). ' I don't like having binaries for everything you need, I like downloading and installing manually the latest versions of whatever programs I use' - ugh, with windows, Everything is a binary. What have you compiled from source under windows? And no, you don't run into dependancy issues. I don't know what you were doing. If you were trying to install say xchat without the GTK, then yes, there would be a problem, but you can't expect it to run on air. And the problem is fixed in two seconds by installing the dependencies. I am not the average user, I use a lot of custom stuff, write my own code, and use obscure software. I barely ever compile stuff from source. I don't have to. I am talking 1 - 2 times a year. And I could have avoided those (mainly stuff from CVS)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
No, I was just pointing out that you don't NEED all those themes. Windows XP has a few built in. I don't use them and have themes totally disabled. If you really want mega eye candy themes in XP, you can still do it easily with software from stardock. But I don't do that, nor do I see the point in themes. An operating system is made for you to accomplish tasks, use the internet, play games on. The OS itself is not supposed be a game itself like all the new ones are these days with all the useless eye candy and themes and annoying animations, etc...

You don't have to use the themes? How is it bad, it is an option, if you don't want it you don't have to use them, but if you do, you can. What is bad about having a choice? If you do want to use them, you don't have to use stardock software which does slow your PC to a crawl.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
I don't know what to say here... XP boots for me in about 13 seconds from power on to usable desktop. Linux takes forever, loading all the stuff it does without the GUI and you see all the stuff scrolling by ... then X starts and you see a new X desktop loading screen initializing services... it takes forever to start compared to XP. XP's 3D performance is faster, you don't need a benchmark to figure that one out. And starting programs is faster. It takes a number of seconds to start firefox for example in linux, in XP, it starts almost instantly the second it's clicked.

'Forever'? I get the impression you have not done this accurately.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
Comments on openoffice and nero, see above. You don't mention foobar2000 or ASIO output.

As to sound, I get all I want from Rhythmbox, If you really want foobar, I am informed it works well (flawlessly, in fact) under Wine.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
I have used Ubuntu a lot-- and I do believe it is bloated compared to XP. I know there are lighter distros, and if you read my post instead of attracting my legitimate criticisms of linux, you would see I do like one distro -- Kanotix. It's not one of the big ones, but it should be, it's the best one I've seen so far. As far as linux goes, stuff works pretty well, it manages to keep bloat to a minimum and in fact the only thing that stopped me from using it is no official hardware ALSA support for my sound card, which is indispensable for how I use my PC.

They are not all legitimate criticisms, hence my response. I'm just addressing them, and trying to find fixes. As to your sound card, I have seen reports of it working perfectly when googling around - so you should probably read up some more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
I don't want any special effects. I know it can be disabled, I mentioned it because it was brought up because it was one of the main points of the OP.

It is a point, but it's an option, not a forced choice (windows gives you one thing to use only).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
Windows is faster, see above. Linux better suites dedicated servers, because, if you run it with tried and true but outdated packages and keep everything in check, it is very, very stable. Unfortunately this type of environment only suits servers, military application and a select few other things. The ability to customize is good. The ability to customize, but also the ability to easily NOT have any extra themes you don't need at all is even better. Linux can do this, but it's more work than windows. If you want cool themes, the software from stardock will suit you well. I personally don't like these kinds of things as I already stated.

As I said above, it's a non-issue. If you don't like themes, never visit the themes configuration. Simple-as. How is that hard?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
. I think you know what I mean when I say Linux. Admittedly I have not used Arch Linux or Xubuntu, but programs in XP open almost the instant I click them, even multiple programs at the same time. This was not my experience at all with Ubuntu, or any distro I have tried. I do want to like linux and the day I can do everything I can on windows, I will switch. I frequently visit distrowatch to check up on version and package status of distros to see if they include anything revolutionary for me. I am not a linux hater, I am a realist.

I use what Is best for me, and what you are saying does not agree with what I see and most others see.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *003* 
BSODs and frequent crashes? Somehow I find that BS. I have never, ever had windows crash. I have had badly coded programs crash, but I can quit them with ctrl alt del. I have NEVER had a bsod. Explorer has never crashed. And FYI, if explorer does exit or crash, all that happens is the desktop disappears and any open file manager windows close for a few seconds, and it automatically restarts itself. Open programs are not affected.

Well, I do have them. Vista is even worse. And yes, it may not have an effect on open programs, but it's not something you want happening.


----------



## 003

Quote:

The first screen is definitely in gnomebaker. The other tool I have never used and cannot see a use for, and no, I do not know of an alternative, but a quick search comes up with this: http://qpxtool.sourceforge.net/ which looks like what you were looking for.
You've got me beat here, I can't lie. And yes I do have a practical use for quality scanning. My CD player is very finicky about playing CD-Rs and unless the jitter is extremely low, they won't play, and I have to have a very high quality burner with Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs.

Quote:

You can't compare something to the parts you want. If you want something lightweight, get a lightweight distro. Want it even smaller check out DSL? I guarantee you can't get Windows XP to 50MB (and you can go smaller than that). ' I don't like having binaries for everything you need, I like downloading and installing manually the latest versions of whatever programs I use' - ugh, with windows, Everything is a binary. What have you compiled from source under windows? And no, you don't run into dependancy issues. I don't know what you were doing. If you were trying to install say xchat without the GTK, then yes, there would be a problem, but you can't expect it to run on air. And the problem is fixed in two seconds by installing the dependencies. I am not the average user, I use a lot of custom stuff, write my own code, and use obscure software. I barely ever compile stuff from source. I don't have to. I am talking 1 - 2 times a year. And I could have avoided those (mainly stuff from CVS)
I know about those tiny distros, and I already explained the problems with them (dependency issues). I don't know how you can say you've never ran into them. When I would go to compile pretty much anything, it would always spit back an error about some missing library, and when I got the library, it would give an error about ANOTHER missing library. Sometimes I was eventually able to get all the ones I needed. Sometimes a necessary library would refuse to work. And sometimes, even when I got all the dependencies, it still wouldn't work for one reason or another. I hope you are not criticizing me for using only binaries in windows, because compiling something from source in Linux is really not that hard assuming it works. All you do is enter the make command and watch the text start scrolling by, and then you're done.

Quote:

You don't have to use the themes? How is it bad, it is an option, if you don't want it you don't have to use them, but if you do, you can. What is bad about having a choice? If you do want to use them, you don't have to use stardock software which does slow your PC to a crawl.
There is nothing bad about having them as an option, I've explained in previous posts. And WindowBlinds does not slow your system to a crawl, the hit is not even noticeable on the PCs we use here on OCN.

Furthermore, I have already explained you can get native themes in XP as well. See above on StyleXP.

Quote:

As to sound, I get all I want from Rhythmbox, If you really want foobar, I am informed it works well (flawlessly, in fact) under Wine.
I know it works under wine. That's not enough though, because the reason I use foobar is for it's full 32-bit audio pipeline, direct hardware access with ASIO, and extremely high quality resampling with the original SRC resampler (not the new SSRC). This is all for naught when you run it under wine because it just gets squeezed through ALSA in the end.

Quote:

Well, I do have them. Vista is even worse. And yes, it may not have an effect on open programs, but it's not something you want happening.
I don't know what was wrong with your system, but explorer has never crashed on me, ever. I was just explaining what happens if it does happen to crash. The worst crashes I have ever experienced were from suicide run overclocks, and poorly written third party programs (which exist on linux as well, if not more), which I was easily able to terminate with the process manager.

As for the [email protected] working under Linux. I was able to get sound out of it, it just sounded terrible, would not work in native 44.1KHz output, and there was no official support for it, just some generic driver. I will look into it and see if anything has changed.


----------



## lattyware

I have never had dependency issues with the smaller Distros. If you just use a package manager, then you are fine, as it will auto-solve them, if not, then they normally have a list on the website.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Dependency issues.... have you guys ever used any of the older Red Hat's? I would run into dependency issues all the time.


----------



## lattyware

Now-a-days, and with the right distros, you should never ever come across a dependency issue.


----------



## endo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Yeah, I don't have any on Windows either. That's a personal choice, and there are some programs that are SOLD that run on Linux too.


i agree it is a personal choice but it is easer to make that choice not running windows because it is easer to find free programs for linux that are better then the windows version.


----------



## sixor

linux distros just need to be more GUI, i donÂ´t want to see never again a command line

itÂ´s not possible that we are in 2008 and you canÂ´t install ATI linux driver by double click, also people need all friendly, like open mp3 and wma files right after installing

i tyed ubuntu many times and it dissapoint me a lot, but mandriva won my love for linux again, it has ati drivers right away, + mp3 + all kinds of vids codecs + compiz ready

but still you need to use the stupid console sometimes for very stupid things that should be GUI


----------



## 003

Quote:



Originally Posted by *sixor*


linux distros just need to be more GUI, i donÂ´t want to see never again a command line

itÂ´s not possible that we are in 2008 and you canÂ´t install ATI linux driver by double click, also people need all friendly, like open mp3 and wma files right after installing

i tyed ubuntu many times and it dissapoint me a lot, but mandriva won my love for linux again, it has ati drivers right away, + mp3 + all kinds of vids codecs + compiz ready

but still you need to use the stupid console sometimes for very stupid things that should be GUI


Actually, this is not something I hold against Linux. If everything I mentioned worked for me in Linux, I would switch in a heartbeat. Well, and if there was more game support. BTW, I looked up the ESI [email protected], it seems the situation is the same, there is no official ALSA support, but it is supported with some generic Envy24 driver. And since the [email protected] dosen't even use the Envy24 chipset...


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I have never had dependency issues with the smaller Distros. If you just use a package manager, then you are fine, as it will auto-solve them, if not, then they normally have a list on the website.

Don't bother... I think he's just trying to portray it as being more complicated than it really is...


----------



## 003

No I'm not. Yes, graphical package managers are nice, and that is one of the reasons Kanotix is my favorite distro. Debian based, gui package manager, light, includes most of what I would want.

But a lot of times, they are not enough, either because the program I want isn't on there, or if it is, it is out of date.


----------



## lattyware

In all fairness to 003, you are making a decent argument, not resorting to flaming individuals, and making not-always-but-sometimes-valid points







- I'll always discuss with someone like that.

Don't get me wrong, I know Linux isn't perfect, I'm just saying that I think for the majority of users, it should be better than Windows. Worst case scenario, you have a choice and you can try them. It's an experience. That's why I made the thread.

sixor: Not once have I *needed* to use the CLI in Gutsy Gibbon - when was the last time you tried Ubuntu? If it was recent, I'd like to know why you had to use the CLI.


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Yeah, I don't have any on Windows either. *That's a personal choice*, and there are some programs that are SOLD that run on Linux too.


I totally agree. That point struck me as a bit off when I read it, too, though I do agree that the abundance of open source (free) software available for Linux is certainly a good thing.


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


The funny thing is that the OP covered all the excuses that he doesn't want to hear, and that's all the defend-o-maniacs are giving. Clearly they did not read the OP and just came in here to "voice their opinion."


While there is certainly too much "linux bashing" going on in this, a thread that really doesn't invite it, I think several others are voicing opinions that really aren't meant to be inflammatory or even overly critical. In spite of the criticisms, what is abundantly clear is that there are a great many of us who have given and are still giving linux a shot.

I, for one, *really* want linux to work. Like others I have been frustrated by it more than once, though I continue to plug away at it, if nothing else, from an enthusiast point of view. My interests lie in getting a very lean linux environment up that will allow me to work on learning some C++ programming (I'd love to some day develop a linux-based MMORPG of some sort), graphics design/3D modelling and web development, in addition to the basics of internet, email, DVD movie viewing, etc.

To this end I have (once again) taken on the task of getting familiar with the Gentoo distro, as I feel it best supports my desire for that lean development system. My next task is determining the best desktop environment or window manager for the job and figuring out how to get it installed and firing up automatically on boot up.

But I digress. My point is that the amount of seemingly critical views on linux should not be confused with a lack of interest. I am *very* interested in linux. To the OP, thanks for this thread. In spite of the (arguably) healthy debates, this has still been a very useful discussion.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Quasimojo*


While there is certainly too much "linux bashing" going on in this, a thread that really doesn't invite it, I think several others are voicing opinions that really aren't meant to be inflammatory or even overly critical. In spite of the criticisms, what is abundantly clear is that there are a great many of us who have given and are still giving linux a shot.

I, for one, *really* want linux to work. Like others I have been frustrated by it more than once, though I continue to plug away at it, if nothing else, from an enthusiast point of view. My interests lie in getting a very lean linux environment up that will allow me to work on learning some C++ programming (I'd love to some day develop a linux-based MMORPG of some sort), graphics design/3D modelling and web development, in addition to the basics of internet, email, DVD movie viewing, etc.

To this end I have (once again) taken on the task of getting familiar with the Gentoo distro, as I feel it best supports my desire for that lean development system. My next task is determining the best desktop environment or window manager for the job and figuring out how to get it installed and firing up automatically on boot up.

But I digress. My point is that the amount of seemingly critical views on linux should not be confused with a lack of interest. I am *very* interested in linux. To the OP, thanks for this thread. In spite of the (arguably) healthy debates, this has still been a very useful discussion.


Have you tried Arch Linux or Slackware aswell?


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Have you tried Arch Linux or Slackware aswell?


I tried Slackware some six or seven years ago. It didn't work out all that well for me at the time, but I haven't tried it again since, and I'm sure they've all come a long way since then. I've not tried Arch, though.

I prefer Gentoo because a) it gives me the option of a nice stage 3 installation process (very well documented), which starts me off with just about as lean a system as it gets, and b) I *love* the Portage package management system.


----------



## lattyware

Arch and Gentoo are peas in a pod. I think you'd like Arch from what you say. If you install it from base, you can do whatever you want.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

One thing to add is that you have to realize that Linux will never be adopted in the game market and gain wide adoption simply because there are SOOO many distros. As a software vendor it's impossible to support your software effectively and QA it fully on every distro so they are forced to pick. From a business software perspective SuSe and REHL are the two that most are gravitating towards, but from a gaming perspective everyone has different tastes and different favorites. It's impossible to expect a company to support 20 different "common" distros as it's just a nightmare. Not to mention various kernels, drivers, etc within those. It's these differences which make it exteremely challenging if not impossible to fully support Linux, and until Linux is fully supportable it will always be a neat side note no matter how good / bad it is.


----------



## Odyn

I accept your Linux challenge, and since I *HATE* Linux, I think this will be a final showdown. To be honest, I want to learn how to use all the flavors of linux.. I suppose nows my chance


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


One thing to add is that you have to realize that Linux will never be adopted in the game market and gain wide adoption simply because there are SOOO many distros. As a software vendor it's impossible to support your software effectively and QA it fully on every distro so they are forced to pick. From a business software perspective SuSe and REHL are the two that most are gravitating towards, but from a gaming perspective everyone has different tastes and different favorites. It's impossible to expect a company to support 20 different "common" distros as it's just a nightmare. Not to mention various kernels, drivers, etc within those. It's these differences which make it exteremely challenging if not impossible to fully support Linux, and until Linux is fully supportable it will always be a neat side note no matter how good / bad it is.


I'm no authority on the matter by any stretch, but I don't think the differences between various distros would cause any more of a problem for games than it does for, say, Gimp. I think it would be a reasonable assumption for any game developer that the user has a working OS with fully-functional graphics, audio and input subsystems - the same assumption made by Windows game developers, I might add. Beyond that, you're talking about a fairly standardized base kernel. The one thing I could see as being a larger issue is the fact that, if a user's system includes any sort of non-standard or patchwork subsystem such as network interfaces implemented through ndiswrapper or something similar, the fixes might be much more difficult to figure out than it might be in Windows.

I think the primary factor keeping the best games out of linux is size of the user base.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Quasimojo*


I'm no authority on the matter by any stretch, but I don't think the differences between various distros would cause any more of a problem for games than it does for, say, Gimp. I think it would be a reasonable assumption for any game developer that the user has a working OS with fully-functional graphics, audio and input subsystems - the same assumption made by Windows game developers, I might add. Beyond that, you're talking about a fairly standardized base kernel. The one thing I could see as being a larger issue is the fact that, if a user's system includes any sort of non-standard or patchwork subsystem such as network interfaces implemented through ndiswrapper or something similar, the fixes might be much more difficult to figure out than it might be in Windows.

I think the primary factor keeping the best games out of linux is size of the user base.


Totally agree. Game companies wouldn't have to do that much support anyway because Linux distro forums are full of people willing to help just just for the sheer fact of spreading knowledge.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


One thing to add is that you have to realize that Linux will never be adopted in the game market and gain wide adoption simply because there are SOOO many distros.


I thought you can install any Linux software on any distro, the same way KDE apps work in GNOME and vice-versa? The only difference would be if one was more customized toward one type vs the others.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

You guys have to remember that purchased software won't be distrubuted in source code format like all the freeware stuff. It's binary only, and in that respect it does matter a lot more. You also have to come up with system requirements that you can support 100%. Think about people calling in with questions about "why won't this program install, etc", it's impossible to talk to these people when they could be running any one of a million different distros. Then you have the question of "what happens when we DO find that our program that we tested on ubuntu, won't run under Mint because its packages are SLIGHTLY different revisions and we have a dependency or conflict that cannot be resolved?" Do you start giving everyone who wanted to run this game on Mint their money back?

Also you have to consider the question of what happens when you as a game developer FIND a bug in Linux that needs to be addressed in order for the features that your game is trying to implement to function? Sure you can get in touch with the Linux kernel guys, and they can fix it, but how long before that makes it into ubuntu, mint, RHEL, SuSe, Slackware, etc.... and what if the fix is an option that has to be compiled in turned on or off? Do all distros ship with it turned on? How do you address it? As a developer how do you support (confidently) all the potential mixed environments out there?

All I can say is that I work for a company that's had to think about these types of challanges (and ran into many of them), and these are all real potential issues. It's very common to see little differences that do cause major problems. Remember that all of these distros, while they may "share" the same kernel version maybe compiled with different options, and these options do matter. Libraries, default file locations, startup scripts, all make a difference when you're writing software that you have put your name on and sell.

Microsoft makes this stuff easy because most of it very RARELY changes, when it does change it's almost always 100% backward compatible, they cordinate with the software game developers on changes, developers only need to contact one source if there is something wrong with the operating system, and MS even provides interfaces to make programing itself easier. Ultimately it's called change control, and for all of Microsoft's faults they do a good job creating a product that overall "works well" and works well on TONS of different hardware combinations. This is a feat that no other operating system has been able to accomplish, like it or not. Despite what the Apple commercials would have you believe, BSOD's became a rare event after the death of Windows 9x / ME. Generally now if you have a BSOD, you have a hardware problem. I'm not the biggest Microsoft supporter, but you at least have to give them credit for being sucessful, and it certianly didn't happen by accident.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Totally agree. Game companies wouldn't have to do that much support anyway because Linux distro forums are full of people willing to help just just for the sheer fact of spreading knowledge.


Game companies need their product to ship and they need it to work on better than 90% of the consumer's computer systems out of the box. They cannot "rely" on the community to fix problems that come up. If you don't believe this, then you obviously haven't been screamed at by a customer who just bought your product that isn't working. When you're getting paid it is expected to work properly. When it's free you'll put up with a lot more "gliches". It's like buying a new car from the dealership vs getting your uncle's old "beater" for free.


----------



## lattyware

Dude, you have it all wrong. You simply put the dependencies on the box, and they say 'works with Ubunutu', make their own ubuntu repo with the correct packages for dependencies and then no one can complain. Frankly, you are overblowing that. It is not that much of a challenge thanks to the package management and stability of Linux. Most things are backwards-compatible.

Let me say one thing: UT2004 - they distributed that and it works great, no problems at all. The native linux client works brilliantly - proof it can and does work perfectly without a hitch on pretty much any Linux distro.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Yeah, you put the dependencies on the box... but you have to KNOW what platform combinations do in fact work. Which means you need to test them, which means more people doing QA or longer release cycles, which means a more expensive games or longer between releases. How do you determine which distros to officially support? How as a game developer do you know that the 2% of the operating system market that you are shooting for actually will want to buy your game? Is it worth doubling the size of your QA department to support an additional 2% of the computers on the market? (Most of which already can dual boot to Windows) The 90%+ of Windows computers is a lot better market, easier for them to support, and more profitable since more people CAN buy that release of the game. Linux is, and likely will be always the underdog due to the fact that no one single distro has been able to gain mainstream adoption. It's not worth it to develop games for Linux. If linux is ever to be successful (think Windows) there will need to be some rallying around ONE distro. 20+ "Popular" distros just won't fly. Believe it or not, there ARE differences and they DO cause problems when you're trying to support a bunch, and there are currently too many distros to be able to safely support just one.


----------



## thenailedone

...Most of the differences on the various Distro's are cosmetic, what software they believe you should have at initial install and how they decided to handle various aspects (like installing software etc.)... at the heart of it their is the Linux kernel... and it gets updated and various distributions update to keep up.

If a game was made to work on a certain kernel and your distro was using that kernel or a newer one you would be fine... heck, you could even install the latest kernel and mostly their wouldn't be major issues...

The big difference is the way the game was packaged, in example







ebian based distro's and Suse based distro's have different ways of packaging their... well packages and this just eases installations on them... at the end their are a few popular packaging "methods" but this would be a simple thing for a games developer to over come... as can be seen with the commercial games that come out with native Linux support... and it would take the community two tugs of Bill Gates ears to stream line the process for other less known distro's that do things differently...


----------



## vertigo08

I sent a request for a ubuntu cd... by the time it gets here I might have a computer to use it on. Any differences between 64-bit and 32-bit? I chose 32 just because it probably has more support behind it at the moment.


----------



## thenailedone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vertigo08* 
I sent a request for a ubuntu cd... by the time it gets here I might have a computer to use it on. Any differences between 64-bit and 32-bit? I chose 32 just because it probably has more support behind it at the moment.

... Support for 64-bit Ubuntu 7.10 has been surprisingly OK for me... but I have run into some software that was only available for 32-bit... I will be using SMTP to fold once I get my net going via Ubuntu and that was my main reason for choosing 64-bit...


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vertigo08* 
I sent a request for a ubuntu cd... by the time it gets here I might have a computer to use it on. Any differences between 64-bit and 32-bit? I chose 32 just because it probably has more support behind it at the moment.

The difference between the two is the same as the difference between windows x64 vs x86, except Linux x64 is actually a bit faster than its 32-bit counterpart.

You could order as many CDs as you like and as many kinds as you like from Ubuntu, if I remember correctly. But they take ~6 weeks to deliver.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thenailedone* 
... Support for 64-bit Ubuntu 7.10 has been surprisingly OK for me... but I have run into some software that was only available for 32-bit... I will be using SMTP to fold once I get my net going via Ubuntu and that was my main reason for choosing 64-bit...

Lol you mean SMP







SMTP is a service that sends emails


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
Lol you mean SMP







SMTP is a service that sends emails

Try protocol, Simple Mail Transport Protocol ;-)


----------



## JdGreen92086

I've wanted to try Linux/Ubuntu for a while, but Linux really doesn't offer me anything. Vista only crashes maybe twice a month, programs not responding happens once a week, all my applications work perfectly and very fast and my games work(highest setting) without dual booting. Everything works super fast, so for me I don't think a little more speed is worth dual booting or completely switching to a Linux distro.

There is no incentive(for me).

But I do want to try it, and I will try it if I buy a laptop that happens to support a type of linux. If not, then I'll just wait until I get another PC to use it on this one.

Great argument.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JdGreen92086* 
I've wanted to try Linux/Ubuntu for a while, but Linux really doesn't offer me anything. Vista only crashes maybe twice a month, programs not responding happens once a week, all my applications work perfectly and very fast and my games work(highest setting) without dual booting. Everything works super fast, so for me I don't think a little more speed is worth dual booting or completely switching to a Linux distro.

There is no incentive(for me).

But I do want to try it, and I will try it if I buy a laptop that happens to support a type of linux. If not, then I'll just wait until I get another PC to use it on this one.

Great argument.

The OP already covered ALLLLL those windows justifications.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JdGreen92086* 
Vista only crashes maybe twice a month, programs not responding happens once a week,

If the OS is truly failing that often something is wrong. It shouldn't crash at all, those were acceptable failure rates for Windows 9x, not 2000, XP, or Vista. Seriously I can't think of a single time in nearly a year that I've been forced to "uncleanly" shutdown the system or reboot due to something other than an update. Vista Ultimate x64 has been rock solid for me.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Try protocol, Simple Mail Transport Protocol ;-)


oops lol that's what i meant


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Yeah, you put the dependencies on the box... but you have to KNOW what platform combinations do in fact work. Which means you need to test them, which means more people doing QA or longer release cycles, which means a more expensive games or longer between releases. How do you determine which distros to officially support? How as a game developer do you know that the 2% of the operating system market that you are shooting for actually will want to buy your game? Is it worth doubling the size of your QA department to support an additional 2% of the computers on the market? (Most of which already can dual boot to Windows) The 90%+ of Windows computers is a lot better market, easier for them to support, and more profitable since more people CAN buy that release of the game. Linux is, and likely will be always the underdog due to the fact that no one single distro has been able to gain mainstream adoption. It's not worth it to develop games for Linux. If linux is ever to be successful (think Windows) there will need to be some rallying around ONE distro. 20+ "Popular" distros just won't fly. Believe it or not, there ARE differences and they DO cause problems when you're trying to support a bunch, and there are currently too many distros to be able to safely support just one.

You're stretching it a bit there. It really wouldn't take that many resources to do the necessary testing. Get the game to an alpha stage and get the in-house testers to start beating on it on a variety of distros. Adding a printer or a pen tablet input device or some other machine config variance shouldn't have any more effect on whether or not the game works than it would on whether or not FireFox or Gimp would work.

However, you do go on to reinforce what I said: the only real hurdle to Linux gaming going mainstream is user base. The technical side of things just really wouldn't be that big a deal. As far as number of distros a game company might effectively support goes, I would say supporting several would be easily accomplished. Sure, they couldn't support them all (UT2k4 on Damn Small Linux, anyone? - heck, *that* probably wouldn't even be all that difficult, it just wouldn't end up being all that Damn Small once the game was installed), but with so many of the various distros actually being based on larger, even more well-supported distros, it would be many more than you think.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

I can't get over Katie Downes Biatchi... such a look on that face...

By the way, I am going to be dual booting once more with Linux on it's own separate Hard Drive. I think Ubuntu 7.10 or Mint would be best, but not sure. I want to run Compiz Fusion, have the ability to run Command Lines (I would like to learn more programming anyway), but has a nice GUI, and has good support for chipsets/drivers/hardware. Any suggestions?


----------



## lattyware

They are both very similar, as I said in my first post, I recommend plain Ubuntu 7.10.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


I can't get over Katie Downes Biatchi... such a look on that face...

By the way, I am going to be dual booting once more with Linux on it's own separate Hard Drive. I think Ubuntu 7.10 or Mint would be best, but not sure. I want to run Compiz Fusion, have the ability to run Command Lines (I would like to learn more programming anyway), but has a nice GUI, and has good support for chipsets/drivers/hardware. Any suggestions?


I recommend:

Mint, Sabayon or Suse. Suse integration with Compiz-fusion isn't all that great, though. Sabayon was great with the special effects and good hardware support (everything worked straight out of the box), but I have little experience and don't know how to update it (it could be easy; I don't know.)

Mint is top-notch with looks, but I have to put it second to Sabayon in that category. If I were to be using a 32-bit OS and I wanted something easy to use, it would be Mint.

Dream Linux is supposed to focus on looks as well. I downloaded it, but I haven't fired it up yet. I'll let you know about it when I try it out.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

I don't know if there would be a huge benefit to the 64 bit OS for Linux, but my quad core and the rest of my computer can support 64 bit. It would also be nice if the Linux distro I went with would support my 8800 GT.

Currently I am researching the following:

Ubuntu 7.10 (downloaded onto a disc)
Sabayon (downloading now)
Linux Mint (downloading now)
Open SUSE (Looking into)


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Does anyone know what version of Sabayon I should be using? Certainly a 64 bit distro, but I currently am downloading 3.5 Loop 1, but it is a beta.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


Does anyone know what version of Sabayon I should be using? Certainly a 64 bit distro, but I currently am downloading 3.5 Loop 1, but it is a beta.


3.4e is stable, I think. Not the f.

64-bit was kinda harder for me to work with. I had a rough time getting Flash installed. But again, I didn't play around with it too long.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

There is a stable release for revision F I noticed... that is what I am downloading now.


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


3.4e is stable, I think. Not the f.

64-bit was kinda harder for me to work with. I had a rough time getting Flash installed. But again, I didn't play around with it too long.


Yeah, that's an issue with some apps/plug-ins in any OS. Heck, last I checked, there still isn't a working 64-bit Adobe .PDF reader plug-in even in Windows.


----------



## thenailedone

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


oops lol that's what i meant


Me too


----------



## RoddimusPrime

That kind of bothers me.... how hard could it be for developers to have 64 bit versions? I mean, even Windows lacks support by a lot of developers on that front but yet the technology is there. I think it is time they got with the program.... lol.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


I can't get over Katie Downes Biatchi... such a look on that face...












Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


That kind of bothers me.... how hard could it be for developers to have 64 bit versions? I mean, even Windows lacks support by a lot of developers on that front but yet the technology is there. I think it is time they got with the program.... lol.


We all wish they would.


----------



## JdGreen92086

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*

The OP already covered ALLLLL those windows justifications.


Regardless, the few crashes and not responding messages I get, don't bother me at all. I'm not giving up Photoshop CS3 for Photoshop 7 on Wine, or any other programs. When Linux supports every program I use and every game I play, I'll switch. Until then they can keep working on it.

Drawbacks and advantages are everywhere. You have to use what is right for you.

You wouldn't use a shotgun for 100 yard shooting. Same thing applies.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Quasimojo*


Yeah, that's an issue with some apps/plug-ins in any OS. Heck, last I checked, there still isn't a working 64-bit Adobe .PDF reader plug-in even in Windows.


No issues with Flash (there were though originally) or Adobe Acrobat Reader on my Vista 64 box.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


There is a stable release for revision F I noticed... that is what I am downloading now.


Are you sure it's not F for french or something? lol (Well if that were the case, then they would ought to have an "I" as well, since I think the devs are Italian.)

I don't know what the difference is, but I was recommended E.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Bump


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
Bump

Bump?


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Was having problems with the forum... and it was returning mysql errors. Was trying to see if I could post to it. I got an error but it looks like it did post the message... please ignore


----------



## jdub01984

Have been dualbooting Ubuntu for quite some time now. The only thing keeping me from completely switching over is the lack of drivers for my pci-express tv tuner.

If I could find drivers for that I would love to switch over. I mainly use my box as a dvr, so I gotta have the tuner drivers. I am currently running Vista Ultimate, and I have the Avermedia M780 card. I love the Media Center in Ultimate and get the best picture quality I've gotten from any tuner with this card. I love the NTSC/ATSC tuners on the card.

I have pretty much figured out how to do every other task on Ubuntu as I do in windows, but I can't record/watch tv.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Sabayon x86_64 3.4f and Sabayon x86_64 3.5_Loop1_r1 are the official names of the ISO files....

And I got Linux Mint 4.0 as well....

And of course I have Ubuntu 7.10 Gutsy Gibbon


----------



## Joshn

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Choggs396*


If I have to boot into Windows for games, I'll be in Windows for most of the time I'm using my computer anyway. The rest? Emails, OCN, and typing papers for school using MS Word. Why would I switch to Linux for that?

No offense, and I'm not trying to flame, but Vista works great for what I do and the majority of what others do. So I think I'll stick with a single OS that does everything I need.


i agree. i would love to try it, and use it because it looks like fun, but i know i will spend all my time in windows because i tend to start and stop gaming very often.


----------



## Sistum Id

Which Vmware do I need to install to run xp in a virtual desktop?


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Sistum ID - You should be able to use any VMware you want (except Player) as they are all designed to create a VM. I usually use VMware workstation however I believe it costs about $200 bux or so... might as well buy Windows ;-)

Also interesting... my "naturally secure" ubuntu Linux machine which was updated just a couple of weeks back after I installed it, now has 15 "Important Security Updates" and 18 "Recommended Updates" that it wants me to install. Also annoying... is that unlike Windows I cannot just set it up to automatically install them. Don't tell me that I could write a cron job to go out and do it automatically... I'm sure I can... I'm saying the option doesn't appear to be in the GUI. Also anyone ever figure out how to make the scrolling smooth? It's really annoying...


----------



## SebDaMuffin

I would use linux if it gamed and had itunes.... 'till then, vista does the job. I LOVE linux though. Its awesome and customizeable and all. but music and games is mostly what i use my comp for.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Also for the record... a hung Windows App under WINE sucks. Not sure how you're supposed to get rid of the orphaned windows after you kill -9 wine... Very annoying. Not to mention the program that hang RARELY hangs when running native windows.


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Sistum ID - You should be able to use any VMware you want (except Player) as they are all designed to create a VM. I usually use VMware workstation however I believe it costs about $200 bux or so... might as well buy Windows ;-)


Huh? I've used VMWare several times, and it was always a free download. Are you saying Windows won't run in the free version?


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Quasimojo*


Huh? I've used VMWare several times, and it was always a free download. Are you saying Windows won't run in the free version?


Windows runs fine in VMWare server (which is free, just have to register with an email address), but I actually prefer innotek Virtualbox to VMWare.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


Also for the record... a hung Windows App under WINE sucks. Not sure how you're supposed to get rid of the orphaned windows after you kill -9 wine... Very annoying. Not to mention the program that hang RARELY hangs when running native windows.


Ctrl + Alt + Esc then click the frozen window?


----------



## Krud

Can Linux Run DX 10?


----------



## Sistum Id

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Krud*


Can Linux Run DX 10?


Speaking of that

Can Virtualbox/VMware (host) run DX9/10 games (on XP/Vista as guest) or will it be sluggish?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Krud*


Can Linux Run DX 10?


I don't think so. But it can run DX9 games in wine (some.) It could probably run DX10 games in the future.

DX10 doesn't look much different from DX9 anyway... OpenGL3 should be on its way, and it promises better graphics just like DX10 did. We'll see what happens.

Edit by special request:

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Sistum Id*


Speaking of that

Can Virtualbox/VMware (host) run DX9/10 games (on XP/Vista as guest) or will it be sluggish?


VirtualBox does NOT support 3D acceleration for its guest systems. As a result, games will be a no-go.

I've heard that the same goes for VMWare, but I could possibly be wrong.


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sistum Id* 
Can Virtualbox/VMware (host) run DX9/10 games (on XP/Vista as guest) or will it be sluggish?

To my knowledge, none of the virtual machine options actually implement the features of whatever graphics card you may have installed. The virtual environments typically just provide generic systems such as graphics, sound, etc.

For example, though my system is running an 8800 GTS, a virtual machine running in Microsoft VirtualPC shows my video card as a VM Additions S3 Trio 32/64, which I'm sure is what you would see regardless of what you actually have.


----------



## enorbet2

Greets! and for those of you not either sci-fi, Heinlein, or Libertarian fans, the subject line is an acronym coined by Robert Heinlein (sci-fi writer extraordinaire who was incidentally further to the right than a bicycle on the Autobahn) meaning "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" meaning one way or another, ultimately everything costs something. As this applies to the age-old Linux vs/ Windows debate ( or flamewar in many cases ) it reminds me of the guy that wants to convert to a stick shift car for the improved gas mileage, handling and driving experience but won't until stick transmissions shift themselves uh automatically.

I've been working with Linux since Windows 98 (original edition) first came out. I recall that time so well because while I had been considering taking it for a spin for over a year, the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak was Win95's inability to handle the then new AGP interface, requiring a single file, USBSUPP.DLL as I recall, and when I could not find it on the net, including through Windows Update (it was a legal copy) I called MS. I was told they would sell me the USBSUPP.DLL file for "50 Dollars US, but why didn't I just spend $80 and buy Win98 Upgrade Edition?" That little attempt at coercion precipitated 2 things 1) the very last time I ever gave Microsoft any money, directly and/or knowingly, except for an optical mouse that was on sale once, and 2) I went out and bought a Mandrake Linux CD the next day and installed it. Even though I was very familiar with DOS, like many people and since Mandrake back then booted to a multiuser console runlevel (of which "multiuser" and "runlevel" I also didn't appreciate the considerable power and convenience back then) and since few DOS commands worked, I was stopped cold at least until the next day when I bought 2 books (much like I had for DOS) "Running Linux" and "Linux in a Nutshell". The first one is only of moderate use these days but "Nutshell", a 600 page list of commands, switches, syntax, explanations and Appendices is still extremely useful today. I've been using a GUI since OS/2 v 2.0 and so I appreciate the value of pointy-clicky stuff but I also know it, too costs something, in that an icon is only a representation of a command, and a single command, at that. I'm no command line Nazi but I do realize that if one were to create an icon for every possible command and it's every possible switch,one's PC let alone Desktop regardless of ultra anal organization would be a nightmare losing all benefit of icon convenience. Plus, some things, like recursive or serial work (an example would be, if such is available for Windows, being able to edit or delete, say, *every* *instance* of a character, word, phrase or combination thereof in a large document or script as in, oh say the Windows Registry. Instead of spending up to an hour or more, depending on number of instances and errors and/or missed entries seeking them out manually with "regedit", this can be, or could be accomplished in a few seconds even if there were ten thousand entries via a single command with a switch or two and one keystroke of "Enter". So while GUI is great for some stuff, the deeper power is in command line and this is but a single example. The choice is between convenience and specific power with "choice" the operative word since you can't have both at the same time in the same thing. However one can certainly blend to get the best of both worlds in this case providing one spends the time to learn or look up commands and switches.

Windows is amazing in that it works at all since it tries to be everything to everybody all the while being compatible with almost everything and doing much of it for you since, if Windows were sentient, it would look down it's nose at users. This analogy is likely true since windows developers ARE sentient and they DO indeed think all us Users are basically morons, stupid cattle queuing up, money in hand, at the food trough of the Gods that dispenses Oatmeal gruel although loaded with vitamins and minerals you are too stupid to know you need. In many cases this may even be basically true, if a little harshly put. There are for example race car drivers, or at least one can certainly imagine there could be, that don't know a piston from a spark plug. One doesn't have to know how a car works to drive it, even rather well however it certainly does help, not only when it breaks down, but if one wishes to customize it to de exactly a specific kind of work knowing completely as possible it's abilities and limitations. I would certainly hope the Duke Boys, Burt Reynolds, Evil Knieval, Astronauts etc know in advance their respective vehicles would not disintegrate upon jumping a bridge or a canyon or into Warp Factor 11.

For me the very things that Windozers and even Ubuntoos complain about Linux for are some of it's greatest strengths. If you tend to pick convenience over power and control every time, and don't mind all the stuff going on behind your Desktop without your knowledge of it, stick with Windows. If you don't mind risking breaking packages through dependency issues, stick with Ubuntu or any other package manager based Linux system. If you don't mind having to reinstall Windows every so often to get rid of the "spaghetti" and "cruft" that slows it to a crawl or renders it unbootable altogether or more exactly consider that a small price to pay for the convenience, dance on. If you don't mind being worked into a web of control that would make any heroin dealer jealous since he can't eliminate almost every other competing dealer to raise prices, requirements, and restrictions to his heart's content, keep using. Just realize that Microsoft's goal, if they could "have their 'druthers", is to own your PC and lease it to you for a "reasonable" monthly fee and supporting them is supporting that. If that's OK with you, that's fine with me as long as there exists an alternative that champions Users and allows me to set things up where I know every nut and bolt, ability and limitation to the best of my ability and that "nothing", absolutely *nothing* runs or changes unless I so will it, so if it breaks I know for a fact that I broke it doing a very specific thing that by that nature is easy to suss out and fix and never do again. I prefer that each application can stand on it's own and is threaded together as in Linux, as opposed to the "all eggs in one basket" approach of windows which is why it requires so much rebooting and prohibits even the reading of some files while they are in use. That is the most fundamental difference between windows and linux.... that, and the fact that Unix, it's parent, was designed as a multitasking, multiuser, NETWORKED OpSys from it's very inception, from the ground up as opposed to tacking it on some 10 years later. It is worth it to me to have to read or consult manpages, reference books, help sites and IRC channels to get the level of stabilty, security, peace of mind, pride, performance, legality and function for downright cheap (do you really use/require the power of Photoshop's bang for buck? over Picasa, GIMP, etc?).

I still run, through multi-boot a version of windows (as well as some of the automatic type linux distros to learn from) for a few video and audio editting programs, though that list diminishes at least yearly, and for a very few games. Many games I prefer to run in Linux due to vastly lower latancy and superior TCPIP stack reducing lag both at the network level and even in hardware interface, now that nVidia's drivers function so well. Many games, even ones that will only run in Windows or in emulation, were not only written in Linux (why do you suppose that is?) but even in emulation outperform overall the same game on the same box running in "native" Windows. As for DirectX, although 10 is not yet supported, the tradeoff to lower performance elsewhere due to Vista requirement, more than makes up for it to me so far and hopefully by the time Vista gets fixed 10 will be available like 9 is now through such as Cedega and modern WINE or OpenGL will take up the slack and it is worthy of note that micrsoft, or was it Bill himself?, recently invested heavily in support of OpenGL. HalfLife2, World of Warcraft and many other new an popular games presently run in linux an run on a par (tradeoffs, remember), if not better overall, than in windows. Just check out the list in the database at Cedega or LinuxGamer.

Linux was a tough choice 5-10 years ago but it has come a long way and seems to be gathering speed like Dark Energy. Imagine where it will be 5-10 years from now. Imagine where Windows will be 10 years from now restrictionwise, pricewise, spyware-wise, security-wise and support with an eye to the future. Or just cruise along without choosing, or at least exploring choices, or thinking at all if you prefer but that should make you wonder if you fit the Microsoft developer's profile of User or if you even care. We reap what we sew and everything cost's something even if it is a tradeoff. Caveat Emptor, Dudes








enorbet


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

^
^
Wow, what an amazing post. I read the whole thing.

If you consider yourself proficient in the field of computers, hiding behind windows and its "ease of use" is no excuse. Give it a try.


----------



## lattyware

Indeed. An extremely nice post. You are going to get a lot of rep if you continue to post like that!

Interestingly, in a post here: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/whe...r_my_x_fi_card you list that the ESi [email protected] is supported, when earlier in this thread someone was complaining about a lack of support for it.


----------



## newphase

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
Greets! and for those of you not either sci-fi, Heinlein, or Libertarian fans, the subject line is an acronym coined by Robert Heinlein (sci-fi writer extraordinaire who was incidentally further to the right than a bicycle on the Autobahn) meaning "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" meaning one way or another, ultimately everything costs something. As this applies to the age-old Linux vs/ Windows debate ( or flamewar in many cases ) it reminds me of the guy that wants to convert to a stick shift car for the improved gas mileage, handling and driving experience but won't until stick transmissions shift themselves uh automatically.

I've been working with Linux since Windows 98 (original edition) first came out. I recall that time so well because while I had been considering taking it for a spin for over a year, the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak was Win95's inability to handle the then new AGP interface, requiring a single file, USBSUPP.DLL as I recall, and when I could not find it on the net, including through Windows Update (it was a legal copy) I called MS. I was told they would sell me the USBSUPP.DLL file for "50 Dollars US, but why didn't I just spend $80 and buy Win98 Upgrade Edition?" That little attempt at coercion precipitated 2 things 1) the very last time I ever gave Microsoft any money, directly and/or knowingly, except for an optical mouse that was on sale once, and 2) I went out and bought a Mandrake Linux CD the next day and installed it. Even though I was very familiar with DOS, like many people and since Mandrake back then booted to a multiuser console runlevel (of which "multiuser" and "runlevel" I also didn't appreciate the considerable power and convenience back then) and since few DOS commands worked, I was stopped cold at least until the next day when I bought 2 books (much like I had for DOS) "Running Linux" and "Linux in a Nutshell". The first one is only of moderate use these days but "Nutshell", a 600 page list of commands, switches, syntax, explanations and Appendices is still extremely useful today. I've been using a GUI since OS/2 v 2.0 and so I appreciate the value of pointy-clicky stuff but I also know it, too costs something, in that an icon is only a representation of a command, and a single command, at that. I'm no command line Nazi but I do realize that if one were to create an icon for every possible command and it's every possible switch,one's PC let alone Desktop regardless of ultra anal organization would be a nightmare losing all benefit of icon convenience. Plus, some things, like recursive or serial work (an example would be, if such is available for Windows, being able to edit or delete, say, *every* *instance* of a character, word, phrase or combination thereof in a large document or script as in, oh say the Windows Registry. Instead of spending up to an hour or more, depending on number of instances and errors and/or missed entries seeking them out manually with "regedit", this can be, or could be accomplished in a few seconds even if there were ten thousand entries via a single command with a switch or two and one keystroke of "Enter". So while GUI is great for some stuff, the deeper power is in command line and this is but a single example. The choice is between convenience and specific power with "choice" the operative word since you can't have both at the same time in the same thing. However one can certainly blend to get the best of both worlds in this case providing one spends the time to learn or look up commands and switches.

Windows is amazing in that it works at all since it tries to be everything to everybody all the while being compatible with almost everything and doing much of it for you since, if Windows were sentient, it would look down it's nose at users. This analogy is likely true since windows developers ARE sentient and they DO indeed think all us Users are basically morons, stupid cattle queuing up, money in hand, at the food trough of the Gods that dispenses Oatmeal gruel although loaded with vitamins and minerals you are too stupid to know you need. In many cases this may even be basically true, if a little harshly put. There are for example race car drivers, or at least one can certainly imagine there could be, that don't know a piston from a spark plug. One doesn't have to know how a car works to drive it, even rather well however it certainly does help, not only when it breaks down, but if one wishes to customize it to de exactly a specific kind of work knowing completely as possible it's abilities and limitations. I would certainly hope the Duke Boys, Burt Reynolds, Evil Knieval, Astronauts etc know in advance their respective vehicles would not disintegrate upon jumping a bridge or a canyon or into Warp Factor 11.

For me the very things that Windozers and even Ubuntoos complain about Linux for are some of it's greatest strengths. If you tend to pick convenience over power and control every time, and don't mind all the stuff going on behind your Desktop without your knowledge of it, stick with Windows. If you don't mind risking breaking packages through dependency issues, stick with Ubuntu or any other package manager based Linux system. If you don't mind having to reinstall Windows every so often to get rid of the "spaghetti" and "cruft" that slows it to a crawl or renders it unbootable altogether or more exactly consider that a small price to pay for the convenience, dance on. If you don't mind being worked into a web of control that would make any heroin dealer jealous since he can't eliminate almost every other competing dealer to raise prices, requirements, and restrictions to his heart's content, keep using. Just realize that Microsoft's goal, if they could "have their 'druthers", is to own your PC and lease it to you for a "reasonable" monthly fee and supporting them is supporting that. If that's OK with you, that's fine with me as long as there exists an alternative that champions Users and allows me to set things up where I know every nut and bolt, ability and limitation to the best of my ability and that "nothing", absolutely *nothing* runs or changes unless I so will it, so if it breaks I know for a fact that I broke it doing a very specific thing that by that nature is easy to suss out and fix and never do again. I prefer that each application can stand on it's own and is threaded together as in Linux, as opposed to the "all eggs in one basket" approach of windows which is why it requires so much rebooting and prohibits even the reading of some files while they are in use. That is the most fundamental difference between windows and linux.... that, and the fact that Unix, it's parent, was designed as a multitasking, multiuser, NETWORKED OpSys from it's very inception, from the ground up as opposed to tacking it on some 10 years later. It is worth it to me to have to read or consult manpages, reference books, help sites and IRC channels to get the level of stabilty, security, peace of mind, pride, performance, legality and function for downright cheap (do you really use/require the power of Photoshop's bang for buck? over Picasa, GIMP, etc?).

I still run, through multi-boot a version of windows (as well as some of the automatic type linux distros to learn from) for a few video and audio editting programs, though that list diminishes at least yearly, and for a very few games. Many games I prefer to run in Linux due to vastly lower latancy and superior TCPIP stack reducing lag both at the network level and even in hardware interface, now that nVidia's drivers function so well. Many games, even ones that will only run in Windows or in emulation, were not only written in Linux (why do you suppose that is?) but even in emulation outperform overall the same game on the same box running in "native" Windows. As for DirectX, although 10 is not yet supported, the tradeoff to lower performance elsewhere due to Vista requirement, more than makes up for it to me so far and hopefully by the time Vista gets fixed 10 will be available like 9 is now through such as Cedega and modern WINE or OpenGL will take up the slack and it is worthy of note that micrsoft, or was it Bill himself?, recently invested heavily in support of OpenGL. HalfLife2, World of Warcraft and many other new an popular games presently run in linux an run on a par (tradeoffs, remember), if not better overall, than in windows. Just check out the list in the database at Cedega or LinuxGamer.

Linux was a tough choice 5-10 years ago but it has come a long way and seems to be gathering speed like Dark Energy. Imagine where it will be 5-10 years from now. Imagine where Windows will be 10 years from now restrictionwise, pricewise, spyware-wise, security-wise and support with an eye to the future. Or just cruise along without choosing, or at least exploring choices, or thinking at all if you prefer but that should make you wonder if you fit the Microsoft developer's profile of User or if you even care. We reap what we sew and everything cost's something even if it is a tradeoff. Caveat Emptor, Dudes








enorbet

Now THAT is an example of a perfect post imho. +r


----------



## Metal425

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stevo* 
What distro of linux would you suggest for people starting off?

Ubuntu.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Stevo*


What distro of linux would you suggest for people starting off?


Mint, Mint, Mint! I've really been expecting Mint to take over Ubuntu for a while, now. Why hasn't it? Mint has everything Ubuntu has and more. Plus, it's faster and looks nicer.


----------



## newphase

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Mint, Mint, Mint! I've really been expecting Mint to take over Ubuntu for a while, now. Why hasn't it? Mint has everything Ubuntu has and more. Plus, it's faster and looks nicer.

SABAYON! Here


----------



## biatchi

Mint or PcLinuxos


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newphase* 
SABAYON! Here

Sabayon was pretty good when I used it. I didn't use it for too long, though. I'm sure if I stuck with it, it wouldn't be too hard. The package manager (portato?) was kinda complicated, though, compared to Synaptic and Yast.

It had a lot of pre-installed stuff (I liked that), but I didn't know how to update it (I didn't like that.)


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Sabayon was pretty good when I used it. I didn't use it for too long, though. I'm sure if I stuck with it, it wouldn't be too hard. The package manager (portato?) was kinda complicated, though, compared to Synaptic and Yast.

It had a lot of pre-installed stuff (I liked that), but I didn't know how to update it (I didn't like that.)

You still using Suse then?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
You still using Suse then?

Haven't yet found a distro as usable as Suse for someone with my level of knowledge.

I would like to know how to upgrade from KDE 3.5.7 to 3.5.8, though... lol


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Haven't yet found a distro as usable as Suse for someone with my level of knowledge.

I would like to know how to upgrade from KDE 3.5.7 to 3.5.8, though... lol

KDE 4 is out.

Is 3.5.8 not in the Suse repo's?


----------



## Quasimojo

I've been using Gentoo for a while now (as I may have mentioned elsewhere, I love their package manager, Portage, and the fact that I can keep my system as lean as I'd like), but I've just about decided it's better for a server than a workstation. While I love only having to install the apps I want to use, it's often fairly daunting to get some things to work. For example, although I'm sure it's probably a simple matter, I still haven't figured out how to get flash workin in FireFox on my 64-bit environment. Also, I've yet to figure out how to get my on-board sound working (Intel HD controller, I believe).

What distro might some of you recommend that would offer a lightweight desktop environment (honestly, I'd probably be just as happy with a simple window manager if it offered easily configured and functional basics such as themes, a serviceable program launcher, graphics accelleration and access to various USB devices such as thumb drives, printers, etc.)? I use this machine for c++ programming, 3D/2D graphical design (I'll be running Gimp and Blender) and, of course general web browsing, email and document management.

I've used Xubuntu and Xfce in the past and I'm currently running Fluxbox. I don't need an environment the tries to do everything, just one that can handle the fundamental stuff such as hardware detection, USB hotplugging and the ability to cleanly install/uninstall the apps I need.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
KDE 4 is out.

Is 3.5.8 not in the Suse repo's?

I've tried KDE 4, and it sucks bad. Not that it's "different" and I'm not used to it; it's just not good. It's not even complete.

I don't think in Yast there's a "KDE 3.5.8" package that I can check off and hit "accept" and have it download and upgrade automatically, so I'm wondering what I have to do to get it installed. KDE's site doesn't have anything for me either; under "Suse" in the mirrors for KDE 3.5.8, it says "look in your repos," but I don't know how to do it, since there's nothing that explicitly says "KDE 3.5.8" =\\


----------



## Quasimojo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
What distro might some of you recommend that would offer a lightweight desktop environment (honestly, I'd probably be just as happy with a simple window manager if it offered easily configured and functional basics such as themes, a serviceable program launcher, graphics accelleration and access to various USB devices such as thumb drives, printers, etc.)? I use this machine for c++ programming, 3D/2D graphical design (I'll be running Gimp and Blender) and, of course general web browsing, email and document management.

I've used Xubuntu and Xfce in the past and I'm currently running Fluxbox. I don't need an environment the tries to do everything, just one that can handle the fundamental stuff such as hardware detection, USB hotplugging and the ability to cleanly install/uninstall the apps I need.

Anybody?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quasimojo* 
Anybody?

How about any of the "main" distros, but don't install the DE? Suse can be installed without a DE. So can Fedora. Arch too? Slackware? Ubuntu (server, maybe)? Gentoo?

That's the thing about Linux; the list is endless


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
How about any of the "main" distros, but don't install the DE? Suse can be installed without a DE. So can Fedora. Arch too? Slackware? Ubuntu (server, maybe)? Gentoo?

That's the thing about Linux; the list is endless









Arch comes without a DE by default


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Arch comes without a DE by default










I wouldn't call Arch "easy to configure," though, lol


----------



## Tigerplayer

I tried Arch too a while back









it was pretty hard to get used to at first, but with help from one of my friends I got it all set up.

I didn't use Arch for long, but while I had it, it was great.

What I LOVE about Linux is the package-based system and the way it communicates so fast with other packages, instead of the layer-based system management in Windows, where everything has to go through Windows and the APIs before a program can reach hardware.

There's also the customization options, just dig into the system and scoop out whatever you don't need anymore. I also hate the fact that MS locks out 3rd part themes for their OSes.... so every time I get tired of the lame XP look, I have to go patch the uxtheme.dll to break that lock.

What I don't like about Linux, is the fact that not all programs can run under WINE, and the fact that almost no games or programs are released for Linux also. Another bad thing can be the complexity of the more "geeky" distros like Arch.

For now though, I stick with the -buntus and Sabayon... My old laptop got back to life with fluxbuntu, and it runs a lot of programs muuuuch smoother... there is the problem with photoshop CS2 & co. that it still does not run well under WINE


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I wouldn't call Arch "easy to configure," though, lol


It isn't hard to configure you just need to know what to do lol. I find myself hitting up Google or checking the wiki more often than not. Bit by bit i am learning how to get the most out of Linux and the way it works.

I'm going to have a go at making an Arch version of OCNix using the Larch scripts tonight or tomorrow


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
It isn't hard to configure you just need to know what to do lol. I find myself hitting up Google or checking the wiki more often than not. Bit by bit i am learning how to get the most out of Linux and the way it works.

I'm going to have a go at making an Arch version of OCNix using the Larch scripts tonight or tomorrow









I've become much more literate in UNIX (CLI), but not enough, I guess. I get stuck when I try commands I know very well and they aren't there.


----------



## KF4SQB

I've been running Debian for a while, because my normal system is down right now (hardware problems). I've got an old ALR server with quad 200 MHz Pentium Pro CPU's that I was working on setting up as a file/web server when my normal system went down. I've been using it (the server) for web surfing, email, and what-not. It has the latest stable release of Debian installed (try doing that on this machine with XP or Vista!







), and while I'm sure it would run better on a more "modern" machine, it works amazingly well, all things considered. The only problems I've had have been caused by me, like trying to change to a different video card without preparing properly first. It was, however, a great learning experience. I had to "go under the hood" and set everything up for the new card with a command line. Thankfully, I'm not scared of a command line. The last good OS Microshaft released was MS-DOS 6.22, and I love it! Was it difficult? Sure, as compared to doing the same thing in Windows. Did I manage? Sure, it just took a little time, patience, and help (this was before my normal system went down, so I could use it to go online for help). I'm now thinking very seriously about dual-booting XP and Linux (I don't know if I'll stay with Debian or try Ubuntu) on my normal system when I get it back up and running. I also intend to try my first OC on my normal system when I get it back going. Home-brew water-cooling, anyone? By home-brew, I mean custom designed and built (by me) water block and a fountain pump.

BTW, the server is my first experience with Linux.


----------



## blackhawk777

linux is FREE?


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blackhawk777* 
linux is FREE?

yeah...

This should convince you::::


R3ap3R1


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *blackhawk777*


linux is FREE?


Haha, yes, where have you been?  Keep in mind that just because it's free doesn't mean you should ignore the Microsoft Windows License certificate stuck to the back of your computer in favor of it.... I'd recommend an older computer / 2nd hard drive if you want to play with it... though you can dual boot if you feel like giving up some of your Windows partition and aren't "afraid".


----------



## KF4SQB

Quote:



Originally Posted by *blackhawk777*


linux is FREE?


Aside from a few distros, like RedHat, yes. I think there is also a version of Mandriva that isn't, but those are the only two that come to mind off hand. There are far more free distros than there are ones you have to pay for. For more info, check out *Linux.org*. Lots of info on Linux, as well as a link to download most free distros, and its a long list.


----------



## R3ap3R

Go with Ubuntu.... that's what I am using









http://ubuntu.com


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

I still say Mint over Ubuntu... Mint = flashier, faster Ubuntu. Just my .02s.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I still say Mint over Ubuntu... Mint = flashier, faster Ubuntu. Just my .02s.


It's also less stable and has less support. It's all about if you think that is worth the trade-off. For newbs, I think standard Ubuntu is a better choice.


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


It's also less stable and has less support. It's all about if you think that is worth the trade-off. For newbs, I think standard Ubuntu is a better choice.


Mint + Beryl does not compare to Ubuntu + CompizFusion & Emerald. Mint is great, but if you aren't familiar with the terminal commands, you are better off with Ubuntu.


----------



## jbrown

First time I've seen this thread. I tried Ubuntu once, I don't doubt that it's not better, but switching back and forth to play games, is just uneccesary..


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *jbrown*


First time I've seen this thread. I tried Ubuntu once, I don't doubt that it's not better, but switching back and forth to play games, is just uneccesary..



Games? Even COD4 works on Ubuntu


----------



## jbrown

Quote:



Originally Posted by *R3ap3R*


Games? Even COD4 works on Ubuntu











Really?

What about Steam powered games


----------



## R3ap3R

http://wine-review.blogspot.com/2008...-on-linux.html

http://games.cedega.com/gamesdb/game...l?game_id=3618


----------



## lecastor

So who would be willing help me with any problems I have if I went and installed ubuntu on my laptop right now


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


It's also less stable and has less support. It's all about if you think that is worth the trade-off. For newbs, I think standard Ubuntu is a better choice.


Yeah, I was going to put that in that exact post, but...

I never really went to the Ubuntu forum for help anyway, and I find Mint to be perfectly stable. So for me (and my sisters), Mint was just fine.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *R3ap3R*


Mint + Beryl does not compare to Ubuntu + CompizFusion & Emerald. Mint is great, but if you aren't familiar with the terminal commands, you are better off with Ubuntu.


Mint uses Beryl? I had no idea (although I couldn't find the control manager anywhere, that is, whatever compiz-settings-manager would be.)

And if you're using just a stock (or close to stock) system, I think Mint requires less configuring than Ubuntu.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lecastor*


So who would be willing help me with any problems I have if I went and installed ubuntu on my laptop right now










Everyone here is quite willing to help new users.


----------



## tehpwnerofn00bs

The main reason I haven't switched to ubuntu full-time is that I cannot get folding to want to run and Firefox is unbelievably slow for me.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *R3ap3R*


Mint + Beryl does not compare to Ubuntu + CompizFusion & Emerald. Mint is great, but if you aren't familiar with the terminal commands, you are better off with Ubuntu.


You're kidding right? Last i tried Mint it had a little gui app for everything.

In case you didn't get the memo there is alot more to Linux than Beryl/compiz/compiz-fusion, For somebody new to Linux Mint is going to be far more reassuring.

What's with all this less support talk? With Mint being based on Ubunpoo i doubt that any new user is going to run into a problem that isn't covered or be fixed by checking the Ubunpoo forums.

Just get Mint or Suse or PcLinuxos.


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
You're kidding right? Last i tried Mint it had a little gui app for everything.

In case you didn't get the memo there is alot more to Linux than Beryl/compiz/compiz-fusion, For somebody new to Linux Mint is going to be far more reassuring.

What's with all this less support talk? With Mint being based on Ubunpoo i doubt that any new user is going to run into a problem that isn't covered or be fixed by checking the Ubunpoo forums.

Just get Mint or Suse or PcLinuxos.

The Beryl project is dead; compiz-fusion is compiz & beryl together, and runs best on feisty or gutsy.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *R3ap3R*


The Beryl project is dead; compiz-fusion is compiz & beryl together, and runs best on feisty or gutsy.


Yep i know that but it isn't all Linux is about. Sure it looks purddy and all but after a bit you realise it rapes system performance and doesn't really improve useabillity.


----------



## RoddimusPrime

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Yep i know that but it isn't all Linux is about. Sure it looks purddy and all but after a bit you realise it rapes system performance and doesn't really improve useabillity.


I would agree, though it is nice to have the option and to just tinker around with it once in a while. I mean, how many people seriously just sit there playing with the desktop whether it is Vista, Linux, or otherwise? I think the biggest thing with compiz-fusion is displaying Linux as a legit desktop with a pretty interface and graphical prowess. For many new people to Linux this will draw them towards Linux more than a command line. Personally I like the ability to do either.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RoddimusPrime*


I would agree, though it is nice to have the option and to just tinker around with it once in a while. I mean, how many people seriously just sit there playing with the desktop whether it is Vista, Linux, or otherwise? I think the biggest thing with compiz-fusion is displaying Linux as a legit desktop with a pretty interface and graphical prowess. For many new people to Linux this will draw them towards Linux more than a command line. Personally I like the ability to do either.


I agree totally. I go back and try it every once in a while but then jsut get rid of it because it starts to annoy me.


----------



## legoman786

Hey dudes... I wanna try dual-booting Linux... first and foremost, which distro to use for just basic netting and getting the hang of? Second, how to dual boot? And, thirdly, where to get such distro said above?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Hey dudes... I wanna try dual-booting Linux... first and foremost, which distro to use for just basic netting and getting the hang of? Second, how to dual boot? And, thirdly, where to get such distro said above?


If you ask me, Linux Mint is the easiest to start one off. It's a great way to get into Linux while being able to enjoy all the little this-and-that that it offers.

www.linuxmint.com

Mint is based on Ubuntu, but I think Mint is faster, better looking, and easier. Here is Ubuntu, if you like:

www.ubuntu.com

Personally, I use Suse. I find it to also be very easy and very functional.

www.opensuse.org

Just remember, don't expect any of them to be windows.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
If you ask me, Linux Mint is the easiest to start one off. It's a great way to get into Linux while being able to enjoy all the little this-and-that that it offers.

www.linuxmint.com

Mint is based on Ubuntu, but I think Mint is faster, better looking, and easier. Here is Ubuntu, if you like:

www.ubuntu.com

Personally, I use Suse. I find it to also be very easy and very functional.

www.opensuse.org

Just remember, don't expect any of them to be windows.

Yep just use any of the above Mint preferably or http://www.pclinuxos.com/


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
Yep just use any of the above Mint preferably or http://www.pclinuxos.com/

Or maybe even PC-BSD for that matter. I've actually never seen anyone using it, but I hear it's supposed to be very easy as well (and yes, I know it's not actually "Linux" per se.)


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Or maybe even PC-BSD for that matter. I've actually never seen anyone using it, but I hear it's supposed to be very easy as well (and yes, I know it's not actually "Linux" per se.)

I tried it once and it was cool ans easy but i went back to Linux becuase of it's strange hard drive naming scheme, It's well worth a try although i don't think it it is a live cd









Freesbie is a live cd based on FreeBSD though


----------



## legoman786

I wanna take baby steps into the other OS that is not windows or apple... I'll try Ubuntu or Suse. I'll be back in a lil bit.

EDIT: What's the difference between U 7.10 and 6.06 LTS? Also, do I get the x86 version or the 64-bit?

EDIT 2: How do I make a partition on my main drive (C: ) if it's all NTFS?


----------



## lattyware

7.10 is the newest version (released 10th month of 2007). 6.06 LTS is the long term support release (released 6th month of 2006), designed for people who want the OS to be stable and supported for a long time, but don't care about new features (eg: shops, some servers, etc...). You'll want 7.10. If you have a 64-bit CPU (you do) you can use the 64bit version, but there are a few problems with WINE and flash when doing so, so you could stick with 32-bit.
You can use the built-in partitioner to rezise your existing windows drive and install Ubuntu (automatically, if you like).


----------



## legoman786

Yeah, I did some poking around and found out some of that info. My newest problem is that my USB keyboard is not responding to the installer.

EDIT: I don't have any regular PS/2 keyboards cuz they all broke... So I'm stuck with my USB keyboard... Wait... I have some USB-PS-2 adapters... Will they work for keyboards?


----------



## legoman786

Soz for double post, but I had no clue that the Ubuntu CD was a live one... I already fell in love with the GUI. I'm waiting for the partitioner to finish working it's magic.


----------



## arekieh

wow, long thread, didnt read it all,
deleted linux:
A) wouldnt support my gpu
B) i cried


----------



## legoman786

Question: How do I get the middle button to scroll like it does in WinXP?


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Question: How do I get the middle button to scroll like it does in WinXP?


You mean your mouse wheel does not scroll at all?


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


You mean your mouse wheel does not scroll at all?


I meant with the button... the wheel does it just fine, I just got used to clicking the wheel.

Also, it's stuck at importing my settings from XP


----------



## legoman786

Hey... how do I set up the swap partition?


----------



## DjQurt

love linux people you should try it it makes you a lot more inteligent about your computer


----------



## legoman786

How do I set up the swap partition using the installer? I kinda got lost in it and am being forced to manually set up the partitions...









EDIT: That is where I'm at right now. I hope my XP hasn't gone bad...

EDIT2: Better question... DO I NEED THE SWAP PARTITION?!

EDIT3: I'm just gonna go ahead with no swap partition... I'll set it up later.


----------



## legoman786

So now Ubuntu is installed, but I forgot to install GRUB.







Also, how do I get back that 341GB of unallocated space for my storage? My D: drive is only like 76GB now!!







40GB is more than enough for me to just mess around with U, but I wanna store things on my partition meant for storage. That partition is NTFS, BTW.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Freesbie is a live cd based on FreeBSD though


I've used FreeSBIE, and I really liked it. I was sad when I found out it was ONLY a live CD, and that it didn't include an installer









See, I told you I've used every distro under the sun







(And yeah, I know it's not Linux)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


I wanna take baby steps into the other OS that is not windows or apple... I'll try Ubuntu or Suse. I'll be back in a lil bit.

EDIT: What's the difference between U 7.10 and 6.06 LTS? Also, do I get the x86 version or the 64-bit?

EDIT 2: How do I make a partition on my main drive (C: ) if it's all NTFS?


I like Suse, personally. It just feels more powerful than Ubuntu does to me. Some would probably disagree with me, though.

6.06 is a server version, I think. The LTS means that it's supported for 3 years instead of the regular 18 months (but seriously, who doesn't upgrade to the new version of their Linux distro within a month or two anyway?)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


I meant with the button... the wheel does it just fine, I just got used to clicking the wheel.

Also, it's stuck at importing my settings from XP


Clicking the wheel for what? Do you mean in Firefox how you click and drag to scroll? That's called "Autoscrolling," and it's in Edit > Preferences > Advanced Tab > General > Autoscrolling.

Ubuntu has an XP settings importer??

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


So now Ubuntu is installed, but I forgot to install GRUB.







Also, how do I get back that 341GB of unallocated space for my storage? My D: drive is only like 76GB now!!







40GB is more than enough for me to just mess around with U, but I wanna store things on my partition meant for storage. That partition is NTFS, BTW.


Not sure how you'd go about doing that; you might have to just use the space as a separate partition in windows, depending on where Ubuntu was written (if it was written right after the now-windows partition or what.)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Hey... how do I set up the swap partition?


I would have thought swap sets up itself in the installer. If it doesn't, then all you really have to do is make a smaller partition with your free space (2 or 4GB or so), then choose to make it a "Primary Partition," then when it asks for the filesystem, choose "swap." That should be it. Then you go and make your regular partition(s) for /. Choose ext3 or reiser or something. Most people use ext3.

Enjoy!


----------



## legoman786

I got past the installation portion... wow that was an experience lol... Now, where do I obtain GRUB?

Also, TheSubtleKnife suggested LILO instead of GRUB.


----------



## legoman786

Ok... I tried to boot from the second drive (which I had originally installed Ubuntu on), but it said that there was an error with the partition. I made a second partition on my C: drive and it worx! But now... I'm stuck with over 450GB worth of unallocated drive space. I wanna get my drive space back before continuing any further.


----------



## lattyware

OK. you seem to be doing this weirdly, for one, Grub should be auto-installed by the Ubuntu installer.

I suggest using Grub over Lilo, Lilo is older, and you have to recompile it whenever you want to change the menu.

To install Grub, either use the Ubuntu installer, or grab the Super Grub CD, and use the Automatically Fix Linux Boot and Write to MBR - it'll work wonders.

Swap is something you want. You just need to format 1 or 2GB of space (double your RAM is the usual number, but with the huge amounts of RAM now-a-days, it's hardly necicary) as Linux Swap. Then mount it as your swap partition.

As to your free space, just format it as FAT32 and mount it under both OSes, or just expand one of your existing partitions to fill the space. (Of course, you could format it as just NTFS or Ext3 aswell, but either of those give the other OSes problems.)


----------



## legoman786

I want to use the music player, but I need the Gstreamer plugin... Where do I get that?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *legoman786* 
I want to use the music player, but I need the Gstreamer plugin... Where do I get that?

Search it in the Synaptic Package Manager, or in Add/Remove programs.


----------



## headcracker

im still not convinced , why would i install linux when vista does everything i need ? an why would i waste my time switchin between the 2 when i wanna play a game ? its pointless. linux has NOTHING to offer i cant get from vista.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *headcracker*


im still not convinced , why would i install linux when vista does everything i need ? an why would i waste my time switchin between the 2 when i wanna play a game ? its pointless. linux has NOTHING to offer i cant get from vista.


He already covered your excuses in the first post. If you don't want to use it, then don't; it's not for you.

You're kinda late... lol


----------



## juventuscadillac

hey, is there a good alternative to bitcomet , and how do i install divx in ubuntu? I watch/download a lot of anime, bitcomet & divx are why i don't switch to linux.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *juventuscadillac*


hey, is there a good alternative to bitcomet , and how do i install divx in ubuntu? I watch/download a lot of anime, bitcomet & divx are why i don't switch to linux.


Open source-wise there is Deluge

For divx playback just get ffmpeg. What distro are you using?

nvm just Read your using Ubunpoo, This guide should sort out all your multimedia needs


----------



## voice

I just got Ubuntu working on my computer!







I will now take up the OP's challenge and run it for one month!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *headcracker* 
im still not convinced , why would i install linux when vista does everything i need ? an why would i waste my time switchin between the 2 when i wanna play a game ? its pointless. linux has NOTHING to offer i cant get from vista.

I have already explained that it does. If you can say why you think that, then you can say that, without backing it up, you are not really contributing here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *juventuscadillac* 
hey, is there a good alternative to bitcomet , and how do i install divx in ubuntu? I watch/download a lot of anime, bitcomet & divx are why i don't switch to linux.

BitComet is a rubbish BitTorrent client. Try out Deluge, Transmission, Azureus, or even uTorrent under WINE. As to divx - download mplayer - it plays virtually everything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *voice* 
I just got Ubuntu working on my computer!







I will now take up the OP's challenge and run it for one month!

Good stuff. Hope it's a good experience.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
BitComet is a rubbish BitTorrent client. Try out Deluge, Transmission, Azureus, or even uTorrent under WINE. As to divx - download mplayer - it plays virtually everything.

vlc > mplayer by a massive amount imo


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


vlc > mplayer by a massive amount imo










VLC is not as good format-support-wise. I have also found it relatively buggy.

http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/ind...Mac_OS_Players


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


VLC is not as good format-support-wise. I have also found it relatively buggy.

http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/ind...Mac_OS_Players


I have never had anny problems with it at all, Mplayer is good but something about it has always bugged me but i don't know what it is lol


----------



## GigaByte324

Didn't convince me...


----------



## legoman786

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Search it in the Synaptic Package Manager, or in Add/Remove programs.

I got the MP3 decoder, but now I need the M4A and WMA decoders.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *legoman786* 
I got the MP3 decoder, but now I need the M4A and WMA decoders.

Did you follow the guide i posted above? It will sort out all you multimdia needs


----------



## legoman786

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
Did you follow the guide i posted above? It will sort out all you multimdia needs









I must have missed that , thanks.


----------



## headcracker

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I have already explained that it does. If you can say why you think that, then you can say that, without backing it up, you are not really contributing here..

no u explained it offers alternatives. k i produce music in fl (an im pretty sure it wont install under linux) an gettin x-fi drivers an software to work in vista was a nightmare so id imagian be the same in linux, i listen to music in wmp, i game, i use word processer, i overclock an bench (3dm06 dont work in linux) i watch movies etc etc etc, now why would i use half the stuff i use a pc for in linux an other half in vista ? when vista does it all just fine ? (an NEVER crashes) well apart from when i overclock to far,

EDIT: also dont like ur icons ? change them in vista too, u can change almost everything in vista with theme manager so linux offers nothing differant there i cant already do.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *headcracker* 
no u explained it offers alternatives. k i produce music in fl (an im pretty sure it wont install under linux) an gettin x-fi drivers an software to work in vista was a nightmare so id imagian be the same in linux, i listen to music in wmp, i game, i use word processer, i overclock an bench (3dm06 dont work in linux) i watch movies etc etc etc, now why would i use half the stuff i use a pc for in linux an other half in vista ? when vista does it all just fine ? (an NEVER crashes) well apart from when i overclock to far,

FL will work under Linux http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManage...TestingId=2061

There are beta X-FI drivers for Linux but only for 64bit and they are a pain to install beacuse Creative did a :turd: job with them.


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *headcracker*


no u explained it offers alternatives. k i produce music in fl (an im pretty sure it wont install under linux) an gettin x-fi drivers an software to work in vista was a nightmare so id imagian be the same in linux, i listen to music in wmp, i game, i use word processer, i overclock an bench (3dm06 dont work in linux) i watch movies etc etc etc, now why would i use half the stuff i use a pc for in linux an other half in vista ? when vista does it all just fine ? (an NEVER crashes) well apart from when i overclock to far,

EDIT: also dont like ur icons ? change them in vista too, u can change almost everything in vista with theme manager so linux offers nothing differant there i cant already do.


x-fi card does not even approach production-level quality... no matter who tells you that it might. There are alternatives (and much, much better than the ever-so-slightly-amateurish-fl) such as combo of jack and rosegarden. If you are really serious about producing music, you don't buy a Creative card









3DM06 wont run in linux eh? Why on earth would you want it to? Gaming, yes, I concede is more tricky on linux than windows... listening to music is no problem whatsoever - there are a slew of media-players available for all distros. Word-processor - ever heard of OpenOffice.org? It is as functional and useable as MS-Office and is hugely compatible with it.
The point of the OP if I understand correctly is to demonstrate that linux IS a viable alternative to Microsoft, and I strongly agree with that sentiment.
A further implicit point is that the more people who persevere with any particular flavour of linux, the more development will come forth... including (hopefully) games; and gaming is the ONLY legitimate argument against linux that holds ANY water whatsoever. Fact. Period.

People are not born with an innate knowledge of windows... it is learned and conditioned. Modern Linux distros are as easy to "get your head around" as is windows... it is just different.

and FREE!

Icons changing? pfft piece of cake


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *headcracker*


no u explained it offers alternatives. k i produce music in fl (an im pretty sure it wont install under linux) an gettin x-fi drivers an software to work in vista was a nightmare so id imagian be the same in linux, i listen to music in wmp, i game, i use word processer, i overclock an bench (3dm06 dont work in linux) i watch movies etc etc etc, now why would i use half the stuff i use a pc for in linux an other half in vista ? when vista does it all just fine ? (an NEVER crashes) well apart from when i overclock to far,

EDIT: also dont like ur icons ? change them in vista too, u can change almost everything in vista with theme manager so linux offers nothing differant there i cant already do.


FL apparently runs OK under wine (see above post) or you could try lmms, x-fi drivers are currently unavailable, there is not much I can say to that. There are far better music players than WMP for Linux, there are Linux benchmarking apps.

I'm not saying Linux will be exactly the same, but you shouldn't want it to be. The trick is to be open-minded.

The point of the matter is Linux is a lot nicer to run, and I have tried to explain why, but I also say the best way to tell is to run it and see. That's why this post is about trying it then commenting on it. Until you have tried it, you don't really have a right to speak about the matter.

Run it like I have said, then come back and tell me exact reasons why you like/dislike it.

This isn't about discussing why you don't think Linux is right, this is about trying it, and telling us when you have an informed viewpoint.

I'm not saying you can't be anti-linux (note the first post has anti-linux sig notes as well) - but find out about it properly first.


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


FL apparently runs OK under wine (see above post) or you could try lmms, x-fi drivers are currently unavailable, there is not much I can say to that. There are far better music players than WMP for Linux, there are Linux benchmarking apps.

I'm not saying Linux will be exactly the same, but you shouldn't want it to be. The trick is to be open-minded.

The point of the matter is Linux is a lot nicer to run, and I have tried to explain why, but I also say the best way to tell is to run it and see. That's why this post is about trying it then commenting on it. Until you have tried it, you don't really have a right to speak about the matter.

Run it like I have said, then come back and tell me exact reasons why you like/dislike it.

This isn't about discussing why you don't think Linux is right, this is about trying it, and telling us when you have an informed viewpoint.

I'm not saying you can't be anti-linux (note the first post has anti-linux sig notes as well) - but find out about it properly first.


Some people, Latty, are closed-minded and have their eyes-wide-shut; they can never break from the norm and have no shred of individuality... tis the way of things. However, I applaud your thread heartily!


----------



## headcracker

to the above posts , again my point is vista does it all WHY change to something that doesnt lol, why use office when word processer is good enough. why use a diff media player when wmp is good enough. why change (if fl works) when fl already works fine. ps fl is not an amature tool with the right plugins an knowin everything in it an how to use it. why do u think people whit cubase an reason rewire fl into it ? because fl offers alot that cubase an reason dont have. (even tho yes i am an amature producer an still learning) plus an an x-fi xtreme music is more than up to the job with its asio drivers.

im still not convinved why i should even install linux an try it. i just have no need too.


----------



## lattyware

Why should you overclock? It'll only take 3 seconds longer to do X, Y or Z.

Why buy a PC? You can do most stuff you do on it by hand?

Why buy a car? You can walk?

Need I say more?


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *headcracker* 
to the above posts , again my point is vista does it all WHY change to something that doesnt lol, why use office when word processer is good enough. why use a diff media player when wmp is good enough. why change (if fl works) when fl already works fine. ps fl is not an amature tool with the right plugins an knowin everything in it an how to use it. why do u think people whit cubase an reason rewire fl into it ? because fl offers alot that cubase an reason dont have. (even tho yes i am an amature producer an still learning) plus an an x-fi xtreme music is more than up to the job with its asio drivers.

im still not convinved why i should even install linux an try it. i just have no need too.

Vista does it all? Really? You mean I can have 8 simultaneous desktops, each with a different wallpaper (even video wallpaper), or a 3D cube complete with fish inside? Vista can play Linux games? Oh, wait.. that's right... Linux can play almost every Windows game, sometimes you need Wine, but Windows can't play any Linux games... hmmm....

Windows can effectively a 10,000 client server base, running 24/7, for years on end without even being shutdown or requiring any maintenance? Oh, that's right... Linux can, Windows can't....

Linux comes with OpenOffice, which gives Office 2007 professional a run for its money... you can even save an item in .doc format... can you use M$ Office to open a .ODF file? Nope. How about play Vorbis Ogg video content natively with Windows? Nope, but Linux can... it can even play .wmv and .avi, etc....

So Vista gives you transparent windows, but can you bend the Window out of the way and look behind it? Can you have 3D video on the screen, peel it back to reveal another 3D video playing which has yet another video running all in 3D? Or bend a video around a corner?


3d on 3d on 3d


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *headcracker* 
no u explained it offers alternatives. k i produce music in fl (an im pretty sure it wont install under linux) an gettin x-fi drivers an software to work in vista was a nightmare so id imagian be the same in linux, i listen to music in wmp, i game, i use word processer, i overclock an bench (3dm06 dont work in linux) i watch movies etc etc etc, now why would i use half the stuff i use a pc for in linux an other half in vista ? when vista does it all just fine ? (an NEVER crashes) well apart from when i overclock to far,

EDIT: also dont like ur icons ? change them in vista too, u can change almost everything in vista with theme manager so linux offers nothing differant there i cant already do.

Then don't use it. If to you "windows" is the definition of "computer," then no one is changing your mind.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
The trick is to be open-minded.

Unfortunately, this is a gift and not something that can be learned. For example, some people will never grow out of the mentality of "OSX can't play games, so anyone who buys a Mac is either a fanboy or stupid."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Why should you overclock? It'll only take 3 seconds longer to do X, Y or Z.

Why buy a PC? You can do most stuff you do on it by hand?

Why buy a car? You can walk?

Need I say more?

Well said...


----------



## dangerousHobo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *headcracker*


to the above posts , again my point is vista does it all WHY change to something that doesnt lol, why use office when word processer is good enough. why use a diff media player when wmp is _good enough_. why change (if fl works) when fl already works fine. ps fl is not an amature tool with the right plugins an knowin everything in it an how to use it. why do u think people whit cubase an reason rewire fl into it ? because fl offers alot that cubase an reason dont have. (even tho yes i am an amature producer an still learning) plus an an x-fi xtreme music is more than up to the job with its asio drivers.

im still not convinved why i should even install linux an try it. i just have no need too.


If you want your computer to be just _good enough_ thats fine. 
I'd rather have mine be a blazing beast that lets me do anything to it, complete control.


----------



## TestECull

I keep an Ubuntu disc handy incase Vista decides to become An Hero...sofar, haven't needed it.

I did use it on a schooldell once, tho, zomg it ran so much better.


----------



## Neutrino

I need some advice about a dual boot I would like to do. Please drop the arguments either way about it. I'm going to do it to learn because of it's increasing popularity and my current dislike of vista I have gained in the little time I have spent with vista. However, I cannot and do not want to go to linux only as ArcGIS 9.2 does not support linux and other tools used also are not compatible. I understand both side of the argument and I just want advice on how to do it.

I am currently using this new laptop. I have not needed much more than 60GB for personal use and will not need more than 100GB for GIS Class stuff so I plan to do a Ubuntu 7.10 boot to learn with. I plan to give it about 50GB or so, in addition to the 50-60 Vista partition, a 100GB GIS folder, and whatever is left in a shared drive. I have heard about the need to do vista first and will be roughly following this Guide. One of the things I will be doing though is formatting the HDD since this was a display model in Office Depot (on clearance for $599) and I want a clean setup. My question is this: are there and big flaws with my plan and is there anything that i really need to know or need to be concerned about?

Ps: sorry about the multiple questions but I would like to get this done tonight or tomorrow so I can load up some ArcGIS for my class.


----------



## R3ap3R

See this


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Neutrino*


I need some advice about a dual boot I would like to do. Please drop the arguments either way about it. I'm going to do it to learn because of it's increasing popularity and my current dislike of vista I have gained in the little time I have spent with vista. However, I cannot and do not want to go to linux only as ArcGIS 9.2 does not support linux and other tools used also are not compatible. I understand both side of the argument and I just want advice on how to do it.

I am currently using this new laptop. I have not needed much more than 60GB for personal use and will not need more than 100GB for GIS Class stuff so I plan to do a Ubuntu 7.10 boot to learn with. I plan to give it about 50GB or so, in addition to the 50-60 Vista partition, a 100GB GIS folder, and whatever is left in a shared drive. I have heard about the need to do vista first and will be roughly following this Guide. One of the things I will be doing though is formatting the HDD since this was a display model in Office Depot (on clearance for $599) and I want a clean setup. My question is this: are there and big flaws with my plan and is there anything that i really need to know or need to be concerned about?

Ps: sorry about the multiple questions but I would like to get this done tonight or tomorrow so I can load up some ArcGIS for my class.


No it sounds like you've got a good plan and a good reason for installing it. I'd recommend leaving a little less room for linux and a little more for Windows, mostly because Windows will probably most of your "big apps", but otherwise it sounds like you are making a good choice. Let us know if we can help with any questions or problems you may run into.

Good luck!


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
No it sounds like you've got a good plan and a good reason for installing it. I'd recommend leaving a little less room for linux and a little more for Windows, mostly because Windows will probably most of your "big apps", but otherwise it sounds like you are making a good choice. Let us know if we can help with any questions or problems you may run into.

Good luck!

Agreed. Since I don't usually do most of my work on Linux, I usually keep more room for windows. But if you are going to try to use Linux more primarily, you might, then, want to give it that extra space.


----------



## Anabaric

If you are willing to ask for help in a forum, (and i guess that by being here at ocn you either know something about computers, or are willing to ask) then you are more than capable of running a linux based computer, dual booting is an obvious choice, for most users, yes windows is simple - idiot proof to some extent. However if you've ever had a virus, lost data, or seen the BSOD







or had to hit the reset switch because windows had hung trying to CTRL+ALT+Delete to the task manager, then you will appreciate switching to Linux.

Its a great way to learn about computers, if you ever get really good, then you can earn BIG money with it. UNix / Linux is the backbone of the internet, virtually all major gateways are running some form of *nix on their machines.

It costs nothing to learn Just time and google.

LAN Party : by far the best server to take with you to a lan party. Get your old parts bash a few bits into a battered old case and throw it in the back of your car. Virtually all of the big name games have dedicated servers for linux. These are far more stable and secure than their windows counterparts.

I've used SuSe for a long time and have a dedicated machine sitting in my understairs cupboard. I can't remember the last time i touched the machine, its sat there happily for the last two years fullfulling all my data storage and cleaning all my email for me.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
Sorry to be so long in replying but for some reason it took a long while before I began to get emails saying this thread had received new posts. Here's a few points of interest for some of the follow-up posts I've seen.

ESi [email protected] - The present condition of this great, great sound card in Linux is that the Alsa Projects driver in *newer* kernels works great for as far as it goes. I'm presently using a customized 2.6.22 kernel (compiled for extra low latancy for one treat) but IIRC even 3 year old Xandros v3.0 which defaulted to a 2.6.10 kernel had [email protected] working on very first boot. I don't know how old of a 2.6.x kernel will work nor if any stock 2.4.x kernels will work. I just know that any kernel newer than 2.6.10 will work just fine, many out of the box with no recompiling like the Xandros install. Although I deleted Kubuntu after about 2 weeks of tryout (Feisty Fawn IIRC) I think [email protected] worked on 1st boot with it too. Given one has such a kernel one has only to check in the .config (often /boot/config or /boot/config-kernel-name) text file and search for "[email protected]" or, better, "ice1724" (the name of the sound processor chip common to it and several other semi-pro audio chips and btw considerably superior to Creative for music playback and recording though not quite as bass-boosty thunderous in games w/o a little EQ help). For those not familiar with kernel config files, each driver/module usually has three (3) possible selections 1) OFF 2) ON - driver compiled right into the kernel which has the advantage of support even at command line/console level and no "calls" are required to load the driver, and 3) MODULE - the most flexible, most common, and fastest since the kernel stays small, lean 'n mean, and the driver can be loaded and unloaded on demand.

The downside is that presently recording is crippled in Linux kernels as of 2.6.22 and midi seems to be a case of luck or lots of hard work. However the sound quality and latancy a factor of X 10 less than Vista/XP delivers awesome playback quality and overall experience. ESi still is promising full Linux support for this card but who knows whether that will actually occur. However it is worth noting that ESi did bother to make a driver for 64bit XP which most manufacturers just ignore like a red-headed stepchild so maybe there is some hope here yet for Linux. OTOH ALSA-PROJECTS is doing very well especially since they became the default driver as of the 2.6.x kernel, besting the long entrenched OSS driver rival, and continu to upgrade drivers even for souncards many consider to be obsolete - one of the things I like about linux and hate about windows - the abandonment issue, getting stuck with unsupported hardware/software. Certainly it is easiest to research support before buying hardware when one uses an alternative OpSys, but generally sooner or later support occurs. Hell, Linux has support for old Amiga stuff and continues to upgrade drivers for weird, old PC hardware as you'll see when you peep that kernel config file.

Linux vs/ Windows software -

Yes there are a few programs (NOT generally games since Wine and Cedega allow most games that don't have a native Linux installer like Unreal Tournament, Quake, and many others have, to run just fine with only a slight performance hit most often more than compensated by solid stability and extreme low latancy [think extremely low LAG advantage] if one has either an nVidia or lately, even an ATi, video card since excellent accelerated drivers are freely available for Linux from the respective manufacturers) that even I, a 10+ year Linux user, still prefer to dual boot for. However since becoming near full time Linux user and especially in the last 2 or 3 years, I am now seeing programs available only in Linux (and sometimes Mac since OSX is a Unix-based OpSys too) that are unavailable in any edition of Windows that are either superior to rival software or in some cases absolutely unavailable at any price for the windows platform.

An example of "simply superior" exists in not only one but a couple MP3/Music players with built in organizers such as "Amarok" and "Aqualung". If you've tried Google's "Picasa" to organize, manipulate, tweak, import/export and display your photos, which BTW has a native Linux version, imagine that kind of simple, elegance and power in a music player/organizer. That's what you can expect from AMAROK and AQUALUNG and forums have many users bewailing the fact that a windows version doesn't exist and if we consider the tone of posts in just this thread from windows defenders you can imagine how hard it is for these folks to admit that in a growing number of cases, free software is beginning to exceed commercial software built for Billy and the Boys.

Although "Gimp" isn't quite "Photoshop" yet (and maybe it never will try to copy some of the "features" that few people actually use or that behaves as mere bloat) since I have been using Linux for 10+ years I have seen the differences in each new release of Gimp and such quantum leaping can only result in equalling if not surpassing it ultimately. Many would argue that with version 2.4.4 Gimp (and especially "GimpShop" - google it!) have already taken over the competition when you consider the average to semi-pro user needed features and especially speed and number of possible layers. Similarly, while "ARDOUR" isn't quite "ProTools" yet, it, too has grown at a logarithmic rate and is the equal of other "semi-pro to pro" recording software that is selling for hundreds of dollars and even has some features only found in recording costing *thousands* of dollars and it is free, as in "free beer", no monetary cost AND has the distinct advantage since it is Open Source to be utterly customizable for specific needs in ways not even imagined by it's creators by a programmer capable of anything from a text script to Perl script to full on "C" programming wheras this is expressly illegal (and basically impossible, short of heavy duty reverse engineering w/o the source code as a map). Ultimately the choice between Linux and Windows reflects this, Customizable vs/ Locked In, Open vs/ Proprietary, Freedom vs/ Slavery (or at least "Indentured Servant) Legal vs/ Warez









There is much more Open software than Firefox, Apache, MySQL, PHP, Perl, Gimp, etc etc etc that are anywhere from "catching up" to already the default standard worldwide. Besides all you so-called windows guys are already Linux users since almost every cell phone on planet Earth (and numerous other smart appliances) currently run a version of Linux. I suspect if windows Vista were used on cell phones they'd still look like they did in the 70's where one had to carry the batteries in a backpack! LOL! Plus it has only been in the past few years thata specially "hardened" version of windows had sufficient stability and security to pass military standards and even with that it is not used in "mission critical" applications. Unix and it's derivatives,including Linux, is.

Making Swap, and Other Partitions -

Someone asked about this and I've always preferred when installing any OpSys to setup partitions beforehand rather than leaving it to the install media, especially considering that in the past when only commercial software was available to do this and it cost almost as much as an entire OS, (you can imagine the mere pennies alotted for the partiton editting portion of an install disk version) not to mention that Windows can't setup anything other than windows partitions and in fact used to actively seek and destroy competitive partitions, even up to and including early versions of XP, during install and/or 1st boot to desktop.

I have used and loved PQMagic ever since about 1995 when Partition Magic first came out. Even the text-only version was awesome but when I bought v3.0 with that killer GUI where you could just grab and stretch, or grab and reduce, either end of the colored bars that represented your partitions and turned often scary work into actual fun. A few years ago Symantec/Norton bought it out and immediatley dropped some features and have since done very little to keep current and just bloated it out like most commercial software seems to evolve and thus created a bit of a vacuum. Although there actually are a few competitors like Acronis, few people even know the company name let alone that they have bootable CD's with great partitioning tools on them, albeit similarly high priced. Fortunately there is now a free, Open Source alternative that is every bit as powerful, intuitive, and safe.

The Open Source partitioning tool for Linux is called either "GParted" or "QTParted" since the basic tool is "Parted" and "G" is the Gnome based GUI layer and "QT" is the KDE-like graphic interface. Recently "Gparted" has become available, even featured, on several Linux LiveCD's, that is to say bootable w/o requiring any installation. Note - many Live CD's don't even require there to be a hard drive at all, anywhere even near the system







IN the case of GParted, of course what would be the point? Well actually since an entire OpSys is included one could get one's email, play games, determine where Betelgeuse is in the night sky where you live, whatever one would normally use an OpSys for since once "un-zipped" to ram a single CD represents around 2 gigs worth of OpSys plus applications which is a lot when you don't have the bloat that we've all become accustomed to, and occaissionally cursed out, with each so-called new windows version.

Anyway my favorites are "Slax" and "Puppy" Live CD's with Puppy being the fastest by a little and by far the most "newbie friendly" since the very first screen you see on the desktop is a "How To...". Most people can just click on about 4 defaults for those choices work fine in most cases regarding networking and video card/monitor driver selection but it is certainly easier and a bit calmer to just know ahead of time at least your monitor's specs/capabilities especially if you still use a CRT instead of a flat-panel, and again especially if you want the fastest graphics. It'll work regardless with the defaults, just possibly not tweaked out as much as is possible, and in the case of Puppy Linux amazingly fast even on an old classic pentium w/ 32-64 megs of ram laptop even if it's some weird off-brand. Right on the desktop and also in the "menu" you'll see "Gparted" which also has extensive "how to" within it's "Help --- About" menuitem, not the typical, non-helpful crap one usually sees in commercial software. It, like PQMagic, has an utterly simple GUI where you can see and really visualize your hard drive and it's partitions (or lack thereof) and because it is not bloated with a lot of extra added "features' it is just ridiculously easy and confident to use to build, resize, delete, check-for-errors and gather info on partitons including all manner of FAT, NTFS, Reiser, Ext2, Ext3, Xfs, and Linux Swap. If you even have a mere 256Megs of ram, it is unlikely you're going to need more than ~200megs of swap file. Compare that to the *GIGS* required by Windows Vista if it will even boot off of only 256Megs of RAM without giving you time to shower and prepare and eat a 4 course meal befoe it gets to the desktop AND where you can actually click on something and have it run. We all know windows cheats on that by showing the desktop long before you can actually use it, right?

Anyway, fellas, that's certainly enough for now and dammit I was really gonna keep this brief this time! Oh well....
L8Z
enorbet


----------



## alk

Man, I installed Linux on a box about a year ago. I REALLY wanted to like it and start using it. Even got my WiFi adaptor working with ndiswrapper after hours of faffing about. In the end though I just found that it took alot longer to boot up. I would have had to dedicate a fairly large chunk of my time to learn alot of commands etc. and would be unable to play games unless I spent hours fiddling around with WINE.

I still use Live CD's occasionally for backing up hard disks with corrupt windows installations, but for everyday use, sorry, I'm choosing windows. Merely for the convenience factor, which makes me feel lazy, but Im increasingly just wanting a PC that works, and Ive never had major issues with XP. If I was doing a degree in a computing related field, I'd be much more inclined to give it another go.

I wanted to like Linux, I really did. It just wasn't meant to be!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *alk*


Man, I installed Linux on a box about a year ago. I REALLY wanted to like it and start using it. Even got my WiFi adaptor working with ndiswrapper after hours of faffing about. In the end though I just found that it took alot longer to boot up. I would have had to dedicate a fairly large chunk of my time to learn alot of commands etc. and would be unable to play games unless I spent hours fiddling around with WINE.

I still use Live CD's occasionally for backing up hard disks with corrupt windows installations, but for everyday use, sorry, I'm choosing windows. Merely for the convenience factor, which makes me feel lazy, but Im increasingly just wanting a PC that works, and Ive never had major issues with XP. If I was doing a degree in a computing related field, I'd be much more inclined to give it another go.

I wanted to like Linux, I really did. It just wasn't meant to be!


A lot of things change in a year.

And @enorbet2 - Excellent post, Rep+


----------



## Rev1

First time I've used Linux, was Slackware back in '94... It was such an amazement to even get X11 running and seeing something different than Windows back then... For tinkering, and getting to know it's structure, how kernels work, loading modules, understanding LILO, the partitioning and swap, it was great, but not practical...

Fast forward to a couple months ago, I got to install Ubuntu in another partition and frankly I loved it. Man, seeing how Linux has matured over more than 10 years is truly amazing. USB and plug and play support built-in the kernel is just one.

Since I play some games, I really don't like having Linux as my main OS, as the g/f also uses the computer, and she can't stand Ubuntu lol ...

I use Linux @ work, and our product development is based on Linux, so I get my "fix" by using it a lot there ... but at home, it's not really that practical IMO, unless you want something that is cheap and relatively fast.

For a file server at home, I wouldn't see why not. As a main platform and OS that you have to live with, not yet, at least for me.

I hate and love Vista. I hate that, you cannot do an rm -rf to wipe an old installation of Vista, I have to go through changing stupid file permissions, even if I have GODDAMN ADMINISTRATOR.... Vista is annoying and assumes that the user is a complete n00b and idiot by default (like how UAC behaves and babysits every little move that you make)...

For full control of my stuff, administering systems, and fileservers, I like Linux. For everyday usage, I like Vista.


----------



## MasterKromm

I'll definitely give Ubuntu a whirl when Hardy Heron is released...

*Wubi arrives: a look at Ubuntu 8.04 alpha 5

*
Quote:



One of the most significant new features added in alpha 5 is support for Wubi, a new installation mechanism that makes it easier for Ubuntu and Windows to coexist on the same computer. Wubi provides a complete Ubuntu installer that can be run in Windows from the Ubuntu Live CD. It installs Ubuntu into a folder on the Windows file system and sets up a boot menu so that users can choose between Windows and Ubuntu when the computer starts. 
Unlike a regular dual-boot configuration, Wubi doesn't require users to create a partition on their hard drives for Ubuntu. When Ubuntu is installed with Wubi, it can be uninstalled directly from the Add/Remove Programs utility in Windows.


Giving linux a shot will have never been so easy







. Hope this wasn't already posted, I haven't read through the whole thread(I usually read an entire thread b4 posting but this one is huge).


----------



## lattyware

That's not that new, I just presume it is being shipped with now.

Frankly, I see more downsides with it than advantages, but still.

I'm running the development version of Hardy x64 right now - it is very nice.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alk* 
In the end though I just found that it took alot longer to boot up.

I always wondered why windozers were so concerned with boot times. Then it hit me. It's because they always have to reboot for something. Maybe a crash. Maybe an update. You don't have to reboot Linux for either of those things, so a slightly longer boot up time once in a while is no big deal









Quote:


Originally Posted by *alk* 
I would have had to dedicate a fairly large chunk of my time to learn alot of commands etc.

A couple hours is all. I learned basic commands in a few hours and am fairly competent in Linux, now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alk* 
and would be unable to play games unless I spent hours fiddling around with WINE.

Games, I recommend sticking with windows.


----------



## TnB= Gir

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Games, I recommend sticking with windows.

I just want css to work is all









I have to admit, except for the game/steam problems I've had, ubuntu has really impressed me. I love the visual effects when using the extra setting. And it still manages to use less RAM than windows. I'm gonna keep ubuntu on my laptop, but I'm gonna put windows back on the desktop if I can't get css working. If only valve would make all their games and steam linux compatible.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TnB= Gir* 
I just want css to work is all









I have to admit, except for the game/steam problems I've had, ubuntu has really impressed me. I love the visual effects when using the extra setting. And it still manages to use less RAM than windows. I'm gonna keep ubuntu on my laptop, but I'm gonna put windows back on the desktop if I can't get css working. If only valve would make all their games and steam linux compatible.

I'm absolutely positive there is a way to get CSS working. I just bought the game on friday, but I haven't installed it. I'll let you know what I find when I get around to it.

Maybe trying a different distro can help. I had a hell of a time getting Doom 3 to work (even the native version!). I think it depends on what they pre-install on the distro. For example, Doom 3 wouldn't work on Fedora or Sabayon. I kept getting a strange error. I finally tried it on Mint and Suse, and it worked.

If you're willing to do a bit of experimenting with distros (I'm the biggest distro hopper ever; before Suse, I changed distros 2-3 times a week), then you might find one that does everything you want.

Sabayon has fantastic special effects by default, and it even installs your graphic drivers by default. If you can get CSS working there, you might really enjoy it. It comes with lots of games pre-installed, too (might be either a good or bad thing depending on your taste.)


----------



## TnB= Gir

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
I'm absolutely positive there is a way to get CSS working. I just bought the game on friday, but I haven't installed it. I'll let you know what I find when I get around to it.

Maybe trying a different distro can help. I had a hell of a time getting Doom 3 to work (even the native version!). I think it depends on what they pre-install on the distro. For example, Doom 3 wouldn't work on Fedora or Sabayon. I kept getting a strange error. I finally tried it on Mint and Suse, and it worked.

If you're willing to do a bit of experimenting with distros (I'm the biggest distro hopper ever; before Suse, I changed distros 2-3 times a week), then you might find one that does everything you want.

Sabayon has fantastic special effects by default, and it even installs your graphic drivers by default. If you can get CSS working there, you might really enjoy it. It comes with lots of games pre-installed, too (might be either a good or bad thing depending on your taste.)

Alright, let me know how it goes on your distro as soon as you can please. I'll switch if you can get it working. I appreciate your help


----------



## SgtSpike

No time to configure it + no support for the games I bought = no Linux for me.

Maybe someday someone will come up with a hacked DX or something, then I might consider it more.


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SgtSpike* 
No time to configure it + no support for the games I bought = no Linux for me.

Maybe someday someone will come up with a hacked DX or something, then I might consider it more.










20 minutes from now, you could have dl'd and burned a liveCD to boot off of. Then, you can play/learn all you want, and restarting your computer will take you right back to "normal".....


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I always wondered why windozers were so concerned with boot times. Then it hit me. It's because they always have to reboot for something. Maybe a crash. Maybe an update. You don't have to reboot Linux for either of those things, so a slightly longer boot up time once in a while is no big deal










That's funny, I've had about the same number of "update related" reboots on ubuntu as I've had during the same period with Vista. Remember that kernel updates require reboots, and I've seen plenty of them so far. Also kinda a pain that updates are released all the time, it seems like I'm always having to go through the dialog to install them when I log in. Sure it's easy, but so is Vista... but Vista is typically once a month.

Also for comparison, at the office I've got a customized version of RHEL that has most of the corp office installations pre-installed on it, including antivirus, email, etc... I installed it on a P4 with 512mb of RAM. This machine was previously running Windows 2000 Pro with a TON of stuff installed including email client, MSDE (mssql), antivirus, etc... and it ran pretty well, and was very usable. This base install with RHEL is WAY slower, and the xorg.conf configuration keeps getting messed up forcing it into a 800x600 resolution... simply put, it's annoying and slow compared to the same machine which was running Windows 2000 Pro previously with MORE software installed. I know that the "customized installation" is mostly to blame, but it just goes to show that the "typical Windows problems (with too much goofy software)" absolutely apply to Linux as well. I actually expected it to run better... now I just need to score some more ram which will hopefully help.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

The only time I've had to do it is on the rare major updates, or the initial update (since the OS is "bare" and not updated when first installed, obviously.)

Other than that, I either don't have to do anything for the update, or all I have to do is restart X (ctrl + alt + bksp), and that's it.

Like I said, I restart Linux so few times that boot speed is irrelevant to me. My computer can stay on 24/7 for months and months without a reboot or shutdown, so I don't need to worry about boot times.

But I guess it would matter to someone who shuts his or her computer down at night. *shrug*

The speed of the OS kinda depends on the distro you use. For example, Suse is a pretty slow distro compared to others. Its installation takes longer and it generally takes longer to load things. Mint, on the other hand, can install in about 15 minutes and is speedy in every aspect. Fedora has a slow setup process, but it is generally fast thereafter. Sabayon has a slow initial install, but it is also fast at its desktop work.


----------



## alk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
I always wondered why windozers were so concerned with boot times. Then it hit me. It's because they always have to reboot for something. Maybe a crash. Maybe an update. You don't have to reboot Linux for either of those things, so a slightly longer boot up time once in a while is no big deal









Personally I don't run my PC 24/7 so I maybe boot up 2 or 3 times a day, so when I switch on my PC, it means I want to use the PC, not wait 3 or 4 minutes while kernel jargon is displayed on my screen. I know, I know - it wouldnt be alot out of my day, but it's an inconvenience I could do without.

I'm not dissing Open Source OS's at all here. I'm just saying that its not for me, and it can be difficult to appreciate that when you are onto something good that suits your way of working.

And c'mon, seriously - a couple of hours to learn the commands? I spent an entire DAY reading a debian manual and still didn't understand wth I was meant to be doing! Open Source OS's are not user (noob) friendly in my experience - even Ubuntu.

Im quite happy for someone to tell me about a new OS or feature thats been released and might tempt me back, but being down right patronising doesn't do any favours for the Open Source Software communities image, and certainly doesn't make me or anyone else more likely to hop on the Linux bandwagon.

I'm not a Linux hater - I'm just not a Linux user when it comes to Personal Computers.


----------



## lattyware

Maybe you are going about it the wrong way. Who reads the Debian Manual? Who 'learns the commands'?

Just use it, and when you don't know how to do something, search about it, find out how to, and do it. Learn from experience, not reading continuously. It works far better.

Ubuntu is so n00b friendly it hurts. I'm sorry, but what were you doing that you found hard in Ubuntu?


----------



## alk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Maybe you are going about it the wrong way. Who reads the Debian Manual? Who 'learns the commands'?

Just use it, and when you don't know how to do something, search about it, find out how to, and do it. Learn from experience, not reading continuously. It works far better.

Ubuntu is so n00b friendly it hurts. I'm sorry, but what were you doing that you found hard in Ubuntu?

Had to do something as root. Had no idea what the default root password was, and more or less gave up due to sheer frustration.


----------



## Emmanuel

I'm happy with Vista, I respect Linux users, but if I keep on upgrading my rig all the time, it's to take advtange of all the latest DirectX10 games (Crysis, Bioshock...) and not to wait for the never released Open GL3.0. Also, I honestly preffer Office 2000 or 2007 than Open Office.


----------



## alk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emmanuel* 
I'm happy with Vista, I respect Linux users, but if I keep on upgrading my rig all the time, it's to take advtange of all the latest DirectX10 games (Crysis, Bioshock...) and not to wait for the never released Open GL3.0. Also, I honestly preffer Office 2000 or 2007 than Open Office.

Entirely agree.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alk* 
Had to do something as root. Had no idea what the default root password was, and more or less gave up due to sheer frustration.

sudo <command> - the use your normal password. This is pretty well documented. (In Hardy - the next version of Ubuntu, it tells you this upon opening a terminal.)

I'm not saying Linux is perfect, but it is getting better at an exponential rate, and it's very good now.

This thread is just here so you can give it a shot, and my recommendation on that.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TnB= Gir*


I just want css to work is all









I have to admit, except for the game/steam problems I've had, ubuntu has really impressed me. I love the visual effects when using the extra setting. And it still manages to use less RAM than windows. I'm gonna keep ubuntu on my laptop, but I'm gonna put windows back on the desktop if I can't get css working. If only valve would make all their games and steam linux compatible.


http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=3731


----------



## GodofGrunts

Quote:



Originally Posted by *alk*


Personally I don't run my PC 24/7 so I maybe boot up 2 or 3 times a day, so when I switch on my PC, it means I want to use the PC, not wait 3 or 4 minutes while kernel jargon is displayed on my screen. I know, I know - it wouldnt be alot out of my day, but it's an inconvenience I could do without.

I'm not dissing Open Source OS's at all here. I'm just saying that its not for me, and it can be difficult to appreciate that when you are onto something good that suits your way of working.

And c'mon, seriously - a couple of hours to learn the commands? I spent an entire DAY reading a debian manual and still didn't understand wth I was meant to be doing! Open Source OS's are not user (noob) friendly in my experience - even Ubuntu.

Im quite happy for someone to tell me about a new OS or feature thats been released and might tempt me back, but being down right patronising doesn't do any favours for the Open Source Software communities image, and certainly doesn't make me or anyone else more likely to hop on the Linux bandwagon.

I'm not a Linux hater - I'm just not a Linux user when it comes to Personal Computers.










If you go way back in the day when you first started using Windows, you'll realize that you had a difficult time with it too. Time and consistency is the key.


----------



## GodofGrunts

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Emmanuel*


I'm happy with Vista, I respect Linux users, but if I keep on upgrading my rig all the time, it's to take advtange of all the latest DirectX10 games (Crysis, Bioshock...) and not to wait for the never released Open GL3.0. Also, I honestly preffer *Office* 2000 or *2007* than Open Office.


Ewww... Even AMD+nVidia upgrade back to 2003. Besides Office cost so much money, well the legal copies do.


----------



## SiNiSt3r

Quote:



Originally Posted by *GodofGrunts*


Besides Office cost so much money, well the legal copies do.



I don't really see how tha price of software can be in anyone agrument in order to turn windows users to linux. any computer savy person (aka 100% of the people in this forum) know how to go about getting free software. torrents are just how things are done now, its no secret, everyone knows it.

I use linux for some things, but windows is still my os of choice. There is some stuff that i'm not able to do in linux, or mabye its just too easy to acomplish my objective in windows that it defeats the purpose of searching on how to do it in linux (mostly media related stuff). or mabye im just using a distro that has been quoted "the best 1995 has to offer", i dunno.

I use linux to program and have fun with, because there *are* some programs that just run better when you use linux. but if i didn't use linux as a tool, i would be a 100% windows user.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alk* 
And c'mon, seriously - a couple of hours to learn the commands? I spent an entire DAY reading a debian manual and still didn't understand wth I was meant to be doing! Open Source OS's are not user (noob) friendly in my experience - even Ubuntu.

It doesn't help to read about commands. It helps to use them. You can read a book of commands for years, but you're never going to really know how to use them until you actually do use them. That was my problem in the beginning, actually.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alk* 
I'm not a Linux hater - I'm just not a Linux user when it comes to Personal Computers.









Perfectly fine, but I'd appreciate if people would come into this thread and accept the challenge or just ignore the thread altogether rather than justifying their unwillingness to try it out.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emmanuel* 
I'm happy with Vista, I respect Linux users, but if I keep on upgrading my rig all the time, it's to take advtange of all the latest DirectX10 games (Crysis, Bioshock...) and not to wait for the never released Open GL3.0. Also, I honestly preffer Office 2000 or 2007 than Open Office.

Stick with windows and avoid the thread









PS: I also like MSO much better than OOo.


----------



## version2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emmanuel* 
Also, I honestly prefer Office 2000 or 2007 than Open Office.

I think they both suck, relatively speaking. The idea of a word processor, powerpoints, etc,. needs to be re-evaluated. They've gotten more bloated and chaotic than they need to be.


----------



## mcogan10

I had fedora core 6 installed last year, and it was probably the most user-unfriendly piece of software I have EVER used...I couldn't even get my internet working


----------



## carl25

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Choggs396*


If I have to boot into Windows for games, I'll be in Windows for most of the time I'm using my computer anyway. The rest? Emails, OCN, and typing papers for school using MS Word. Why would I switch to Linux for that?

No offense, and I'm not trying to flame, but Vista works great for what I do and the majority of what others do. So I think I'll stick with a single OS that does everything I need.


QFT


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mcogan10*


I had fedora core 6 installed last year, and it was probably the most user-unfriendly piece of software I have EVER used...I couldn't even get my internet working


If it was wired internet, then you prolly did something wrong. If it's wireless, wireless is known to be a heavy burden in the Linux world.

Fedora 6 was an easy distro... Back then, I actually preferred that over other distros. And they have improved it by a HUGE amount going to Fedora 7, and then even more in Fedora 8 (though I had a couple problems that caused me to have to abandon it.)

I would say without exaggeration that Ubuntu and Fedora are getting better and better exponentially. When I first used Ubuntu (5.xx), I hated it. It was difficult to use and full of imperfections. They have done an amazing job cleaning that up since then.


----------



## legoman786

My uncles servers use Fedora... would it be too different from Ubuntu or is it almost the same?


----------



## lattyware

Everyone saying you won't switch because you don't see the point, you are just ignoring the point of the thread, which I discuss in the original post. Try to keep it on-topic please.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


My uncles servers use Fedora... would it be too different from Ubuntu or is it almost the same?


They're all relatively similar. Fedora uses a different package manager than Ubuntu, though. Fedora is RedHat-based, and Ubuntu is Debian-based. If you ask me, Ubuntu is probably easier to work with, although for some reason I've always preferred Fedora's RPM (RedHat Package Manager) over Ubuntu's Synaptic/apt package manager.


----------



## legoman786

So whats the difference between the two packagers?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *legoman786* 
So whats the difference between the two packagers?

Well... They're _kinda_ similar... In fact, they're quite similar. One can use .rpm files to install, the other can use .deb files to install programs









I use Suse Linux which uses RPM. I've also used Debian's Synaptic, and I've found them to be very similar.

Synaptic/apt-get is very renowned for its ease of use, though. If anyone wants to list pros/cons between the two, I'd like to know them


----------



## lattyware

I'm personally a big fan of Arch's Pacman (best. name. ever.) and ArchBuild system.


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


I'm personally a big fan of Arch's Pacman (best. name. ever.)


Slapt-Get would have to be a close second


----------



## Steve-0

so i've decided to give linux a try since my desktop needs to be reformatted and i cant find my XP cd anywhere T_T

i'm also really annoyed of the instability and vulnerability of windows.

i never had anything against linux, i was just reluctant about trying it because of the difficulty learning how to use all those commands.


----------



## lattyware

Heh, to restate what I have said before:

1) You don't need to learn commands. Linux is now entirely usable (although you do loose some features (albeit ones that wouldn't exist in windows) without it) without ever touching a CLI.
2) Learning commands is not something you need to do in one go, it's something you pick up as you go along.

It's really easy if you give it a fair shot, I'm sure you'll be fine.


----------



## alk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Perfectly fine, but I'd appreciate if people would come into this thread and accept the challenge or just ignore the thread altogether rather than justifying their unwillingness to try it out.

In that case, you will *appreciate* the fact that I have actually run distros of Linux before, and can *appreciate* my sharing of the reasons why I decided to stick with windows (I actually still run a variety of distros in VMware when I need to). Therefore Ill assume Im not one of these unwilling "people" you refer to in your post.

And I quote from the original post:

Quote:

At worst, if you turn out disliking Linux you can then say 'I've tried it, I dislike it, here is why.' - and If you can say that, give a good reason, and have really done it - no one can (with any real argument) say anything against you - and everyone wants that!
So no, I will not simply "ignore this thread altogether"!


----------



## bdattilo

I have used Linux, and yes it is nice, but here is why I do not use it now, and don't recommend using it:

I am in the IT service field. I help people with problems, and about 80% are very computer illiterate. Because of that, I have to know computers inside and out, and know how to explain things to them. So, I use Windows, like 95% of home and business users. I keep up on updates, problems, how to configure all sorts of hardware, etc. My home use helps me keep up with everything. Sure, Linux is free, looks good, but it is a pain to configure correctly. Put in new hardware, and it pretty much hates you. This is impossible for the general computer user. Help can be found on the internet, but most of the time it is buried in forums and documents.

Unless Linux can break into mainstream IT support and hardware configuration, it's market share on the personal side will never make any gains. Servers are another story, since there are dedicated techs for them. If I worked on that side of IT, then sure, I might run Linux at home. But right now, it does not make sense. The support web for Windows is so broad, and unless Linux can match that, I hardly see it going mainstream.


----------



## lattyware

Everyone saying configuration is a pain, you obviously have not tried the latest distros. It really just is not so anymore.

and ALK, again, when did you last try it? You never really gave a very good argument in my opinion - I'm not bashing, I'm asking.


----------



## alk

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Everyone saying configuration is a pain, you obviously have not tried the latest distros. It really just is not so anymore.

and ALK, again, when did you last try it? You never really gave a very good argument in my opinion - I'm not bashing, I'm asking.


The last time I downloaded VMware would be... about 7 months ago. And VMware comes with an Ubuntu iso image. I also run Backtrack2 - http://www.remote-exploit.org/backtrack.html
So a 7 month old version of Ubuntu.

I honestly cannot BEGIN to comprehend the MASSIVE leap forward the majority of Linux distros have OBVIOUSLY made since I last installed Linux permenantly on a box.

Another VALID reason I run windows is so I can use MathCAD and ProEngineer for University coursework, of which MathCAD is only available for windows, and there is a port of ProEngineer for Linux thats in the early stages, but its really only available on windows.

Im getting the impression you seriously doubt that Ive ever even touched a Linux distro and that Im secretly a Linux hater! You and THG just keep hounding me for more reasons why I don't use Linux, of which I'm assuming the obvious time aspect to set-up and configure everything has been considered. And more importantly do I WANT to spend the time setting something up again when I've already tried it and concluded that it's not worth the effort?

Linux is the tinkerers DREAM OS. Sometimes I'm like that (Hence DFI board!) but sometimes I just want a PC that works so I can actually use it rather than trail through pages and pages of a forum trying to work out how to configure my Broadcomm chipset wifi adaptor or enable a bigger screen resolution in Xserver or any other number of configurations that one has to undertake to achieve desireable desktop conditions!

I've been at both sides of this arguement before. The for and against (Believe it or not!). When I used Linux and I also had the time on my hands to configure it I thought it was the bees knees, but now I run a tight schedule and I dont have time to configure everything and search forums for solutions. It's definately not a practical solution when windows runs everything I need it to run, is something I'm already used to, and boots faster.

Lattyware, you asked for both sides of this issue, and I have given you plenty of valid points as to why I choose not to run Linux. I respect why others use Linux due to its modularity, ability to modify programs if you're good at programming, and even design your own hardware in certain situations. At least try to respect why I and many others don't run Linux daily.


----------



## R3ap3R

All these people with all these problems... I never had any issues, maybe I am just lucky


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *alk*


The last time I downloaded VMware would be... about 7 months ago. And VMware comes with an Ubuntu iso image. I also run Backtrack2 - http://www.remote-exploit.org/backtrack.html
So a 7 month old version of Ubuntu.

I honestly cannot BEGIN to comprehend the MASSIVE leap forward the majority of Linux distros have OBVIOUSLY made since I last installed Linux permenantly on a box.

Another VALID reason I run windows is so I can use MathCAD and ProEngineer for University coursework, of which MathCAD is only available for windows, and there is a port of ProEngineer for Linux thats in the early stages, but its really only available on windows.

Im getting the impression you seriously doubt that Ive ever even touched a Linux distro and that Im secretly a Linux hater! You and THG just keep hounding me for more reasons why I don't use Linux, of which I'm assuming the obvious time aspect to set-up and configure everything has been considered. And more importantly do I WANT to spend the time setting something up again when I've already tried it and concluded that it's not worth the effort?

Linux is the tinkerers DREAM OS. Sometimes I'm like that (Hence DFI board!) but sometimes I just want a PC that works so I can actually use it rather than trail through pages and pages of a forum trying to work out how to configure my Broadcomm chipset wifi adaptor or enable a bigger screen resolution in Xserver or any other number of configurations that one has to undertake to achieve desireable desktop conditions!

I've been at both sides of this arguement before. The for and against (Believe it or not!). When I used Linux and I also had the time on my hands to configure it I thought it was the bees knees, but now I run a tight schedule and I dont have time to configure everything and search forums for solutions. It's definately not a practical solution when windows runs everything I need it to run, is something I'm already used to, and boots faster.

Lattyware, you asked for both sides of this issue, and I have given you plenty of valid points as to why I choose not to run Linux. I respect why others use Linux due to its modularity, ability to modify programs if you're good at programming, and even design your own hardware in certain situations. At least try to respect why I and many others don't run Linux daily.


I never disrespected that point. You appear to be taking offense rather easily. 7 months is a long time in the Linux world, that's one full release of Ubuntu. A lot can change.

No one is forcing you to partake in this thread, you can leave, ignore me, do whatever you want. I am simply giving opinions and asking for yours. Your confrontational tone in this post seems odd, if you ask me.

The point you made about having to spend ages setting it up is just something that again, isn't true. Now-a-days you can run linux and it works off the bat. Yes, sometimes there are hardware issues, but these can be (99% of the time) solved quickly and easily, because as soon as one person has the problem, someone is working on a fix.

I never said you were a Linux hater, but this is a thread for discussion and discovery. It is not a place for simply stating reasons why you don't think it's worth your time. By all means try both and come back to tell us why you dislike/like this version, but just flat-out refusing to try it based on what you know already is pointless.

I'd rather appreciate a return to a more civilized discussion that better addresses the point at hand, rather than something which is degrading slowly into less and less friendly tones, towards an argument.

My challenge is to try Linux and then give points on what you liked, didn't like, what you will now run (Linux/Windows/Dual Boot?) and why.

Anything else belongs elsewhere. I am not trying to be a priest telling you all to convert to Linux - although I don't hide that fact that I think that's the best choice. Do not misinterpret what I am saying.


----------



## GibbyGano

My only problem I have ever really had is the fact that I can't get my Linksys Compact G USB Wireless Adapter to work in OpenSuSe 10.3, otherwise...Linux makes me happy.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GibbyGano* 
My only problem I have ever really had is the fact that I can't get my Linksys Compact G USB Wireless Adapter to work in OpenSuSe 10.3, otherwise...Linux makes me happy.









It may not be the cheapest option, but WAPs are always the easiest - if you can, I recommend getting one (sig link). Obviously, they are not any good for laptops though.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I'm personally a big fan of Arch's Pacman (best. name. ever.) and ArchBuild system.

I second that:S It freaking rox.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bdattilo* 
I have used Linux, and yes it is nice, but here is why I do not use it now, and don't recommend using it:

I am in the IT service field. I help people with problems, and about 80% are very computer illiterate. Because of that, I have to know computers inside and out, and know how to explain things to them. So, I use Windows, like 95% of home and business users. I keep up on updates, problems, how to configure all sorts of hardware, etc. My home use helps me keep up with everything. Sure, Linux is free, looks good, but it is a pain to configure correctly. Put in new hardware, and it pretty much hates you. This is impossible for the general computer user. Help can be found on the internet, but most of the time it is buried in forums and documents.

Unless Linux can break into mainstream IT support and hardware configuration, it's market share on the personal side will never make any gains. Servers are another story, since there are dedicated techs for them. If I worked on that side of IT, then sure, I might run Linux at home. But right now, it does not make sense. The support web for Windows is so broad, and unless Linux can match that, I hardly see it going mainstream.

I was thinking about this before, It's true that the vast majority of computer users are tech-******* ( harsh but fair i think ), And while Linux is getting easier to use use at a extremely rapid pace it is miles away from Windows in terms of ****** friendliness. I really hope that Linux doesn't end up having a gui app to configure absolutely everything because that's just going to bring bloat and slowness. I use Arch so i guess i need not worry about that but I'd hate to see all the 'big' Distros making their releases so fat and slow to be as easy to use as Windows that it puts people off giving Linux a proper go on the grounds that it's slow.

^^That may be somewhat unreadable and broken-English like, My brain just isn't working very well. I know what I'm trying to say but can't seem to get it from my head to the keyboard lol









Zomg the swear filter errr... filters the word for more than one ******, What the hell is with that?


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
I second that:S It freaking rox.

I was thinking about this before, It's true that the vast majority of computer users are tech-******* ( harsh but fair i think ), And *while Linux is getting easier to use use at a extremely rapid pace it is miles away from Windows in terms of ****** friendliness*. I really hope that Linux doesn't end up having a gui app to configure absolutely everything because that's just going to bring bloat and slowness. I use Arch so i guess i need not worry about that but I'd hate to see all the 'big' Distros making their releases so fat and slow to be as easy to use as Windows that it puts people off giving Linux a proper go on the grounds that it's slow.

^^That may be somewhat unreadable and broken-English like, My brain just isn't working very well. I know what I'm trying to say but can't seem to get it from my head to the keyboard lol









Zomg the swear filter errr... filters the word for more than one ******, What the hell is with that?

Lol.... I would sig that if I had room


----------



## alk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I never disrespected that point. You appear to be taking offense rather easily. 7 months is a long time in the Linux world, that's one full release of Ubuntu. A lot can change.

No one is forcing you to partake in this thread, you can leave, ignore me, do whatever you want. I am simply giving opinions and asking for yours. Your confrontational tone in this post seems odd, if you ask me.

The point you made about having to spend ages setting it up is just something that again, isn't true. Now-a-days you can run linux and it works off the bat. Yes, sometimes there are hardware issues, but these can be (99% of the time) solved quickly and easily, because as soon as one person has the problem, someone is working on a fix.

I never said you were a Linux hater, but this is a thread for discussion and discovery. It is not a place for simply stating reasons why you don't think it's worth your time. By all means try both and come back to tell us why you dislike/like this version, but just flat-out refusing to try it based on what you know already is pointless.

I'd rather appreciate a return to a more civilized discussion that better addresses the point at hand, rather than something which is degrading slowly into less and less friendly tones, towards an argument.

My challenge is to try Linux and then give points on what you liked, didn't like, what you will now run (Linux/Windows/Dual Boot?) and why.

Anything else belongs elsewhere. I am not trying to be a priest telling you all to convert to Linux - although I don't hide that fact that I think that's the best choice. Do not misinterpret what I am saying.

Ah it would appear to be a classic misinterpretation of the Kiersey type INTJ. I am a very aggressive debater as you've seen, but don't worry, I'm far from taking offense. Think of INTJ's as machines rather than human beings, and thats the sort of level of emotion we have!







My apologies if you were intimidated by this or found it uncomfortable!

What do you recommend for a reliable dual boot config? I have used GRUB bootloader before installed onto my MBR, but this caused problems when I tried to remove the bootloader later on. One thing I would like to do is get a distro installed onto my second partition, and try and get that Cube3D desktop thing working with KDE.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *R3ap3R* 
Lol.... I would sig that if I had room









Dang i wish you would, I've (to my knowledge) never been sigged. I must be teh uber suck


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alk* 
Ah it would appear to be a classic misinterpretation of the Kiersey type INTJ. I am a very aggressive debater as you've seen, but don't worry, I'm far from taking offense. Think of INTJ's as machines rather than human beings, and thats the sort of level of emotion we have!







My apologies if you were intimidated by this or found it uncomfortable!

What do you recommend for a reliable dual boot config? I have used GRUB bootloader before installed onto my MBR, but this caused problems when I tried to remove the bootloader later on. One thing I would like to do is get a distro installed onto my second partition, and try and get that Cube3D desktop thing working with KDE.

Good good. It just seemed like you were stressing for agressive sarcasm, my apologies.

Generally, Gnome is the environment to use if you want visual effects. I'm not oh-so-familiar with KDE, especially V4 which has just come out.

Frankly, GRUB is the best, you can use LILO, but I doubt It'll help out much more. If you want to keep everything safe, use a separate partition for your /boot, and then you can remove your linux install and keep grub, or just use FIXMBR if you want to get rid of it.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *GibbyGano*


My only problem I have ever really had is the fact that I can't get my Linksys Compact G USB Wireless Adapter to work in OpenSuSe 10.3, otherwise...Linux makes me happy.










Actually, Suse was the only distro I was ever able to get my netgear USB adapter working in. I would assume the process is the same for a linksys.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


I really hope that Linux doesn't end up having a gui app to configure absolutely everything because that's just going to bring bloat and slowness.


If it happens, fine. That'll bring more users to Linux, and we'll still have the infinite number of distros to choose from. That's the keyword in the Linux world: choice (ok, and freedom. And just Free. You get the point.)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *alk*


Another VALID reason I run windows is so I can use MathCAD and ProEngineer for University coursework, of which MathCAD is only available for windows, and there is a port of ProEngineer for Linux thats in the early stages, but its really only available on windows.


Sure is a valid reason. I have to use Autodesk Inventor for my Engineering class, so I use Remote Desktop to control my windows PC from my Mac









Quote:



Originally Posted by *alk*


Im getting the impression you seriously doubt that Ive ever even touched a Linux distro and that Im secretly a Linux hater!


To be fair: minus the Linux-hater part, most people who give windows justifications have very little to no experience. A week counts as "very little" experience. I'd say a month is a decent amount of experience to make a judgement.


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Dang i wish you would, I've (to my knowledge) never been sigged. I must be teh uber suck










hrm... patience you must have.

hrm... sigged before have I also never been.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newphase* 
hrm... patience you must have.

hrm... sigged before have I also never been.

Dude are you Yoda?


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Dude are you Yoda?


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

The real issue here is that basically everyone here that is running linux still either has to dual boot or have another machine that's running Windows. Until one can actually 100% convert to Linux and NEVER touch Windows, Linux is kind of a pain. Not too many people want to deal with multiple OS's all the time. It's a hassle, especially when there is already one out there that does basically everything you want.

And again, to avoid the bashing... I'm by no means a "linux hater", I've been running Linux for nearly 10 years now on a daily basis. I love the command line, love using it as a server, and see little value in using it as a desktop over Windows. With that being said, it is MUCH better than it used to be. What it really needs now is widespread mainstream software support, which it will likely never get due to the fact that it's nearly impossible to support properly since there are a million different distros and flavors. If you want Linux to be successful it needs to consolidate into "one or two" main distros. This has already happened on the server side (RHEL and SuSe have those markets won)... but on the desktop side there are just too many differences.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R*


which it will likely never get due to the fact that it's nearly impossible to support properly since there are a million different distros and flavors.


Rubbish. Look at all the software and drivers out there - they all support all the distros. It's not hard, don't spread a misconception.

I agree to an extent, but for most people who are not gamers, Linux can be used 100% of the time, and I believe the benefits of Linux outweigh the negatives of dual booting for games.


----------



## Cait Sith Cat

I like Linux, and driver support and enduser-friendliness is getting better everyday.

The day that Linux becomes a platform for GAMERS, people here will switch. You can use it for office, for HTPC, for server, but NOT for the games that we all play.

Honestly, if Steam (and its games) were made cross-platform, that would be enough for a lot of people to switch.

Game devs, unless they are even more under the thumb of Microsoft than I thought, need to make the switch to open-source platforms. NOT open-source games, but open-source platforms.


----------



## Brian_GP1200R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Rubbish. Look at all the software and drivers out there - they all support all the distros. It's not hard, don't spread a misconception.


I have looked at the software and drivers out there. That's why I said it. That's why I run a Windows desktop. There aren't that many commercial software packages that support linux. There is a reason for it beyond the lack of Linux market share.


----------



## lattyware

...

What you have just said is something we already know, than software and drivers are not created for Linux by companies. But the only reason is market share. Software does not have to be written for each distro.

On another note, Most commercial apps are matched or beaten by FOSS alternatives.


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


...

What you have just said is something we already know, than software and drivers are not created for Linux by companies. But the only reason is market share. Software does not have to be written for each distro.

*On another note, Most commercial apps are matched or beaten by FOSS alternatives*.



Yep. To top it off, they are free as the acronym suggests


----------



## sh1v

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Cait Sith Cat*


I like Linux, and driver support and enduser-friendliness is getting better everyday.

The day that Linux becomes a platform for GAMERS, people here will switch. You can use it for office, for HTPC, for server, but NOT for the games that we all play.

Honestly, if Steam (and its games) were made cross-platform, that would be enough for a lot of people to switch.

Game devs, unless they are even more under the thumb of Microsoft than I thought, need to make the switch to open-source platforms. NOT open-source games, but open-source platforms.


Why would Valve dump resources into Operating System that has only 1% market share? Heck, they are not even going to bother with Apple's Operating System because it is a waste of time and money.


----------



## lattyware

Because Valve are not a company that always goes with what is normal.

Think about it, the thing everyone complains about with Linux is the lack of game support. If Valve make Steam for Linux, and port the Source engine, they would open the floodgate of would-be linux users. They could nigh-on *create* the market.

Before the TV was made mainstream, I'm sure people could have said 'Why would anyone broadcast on TV when Radio is so popular?' - You are saying the same thing.

If Linux gets software and hardware support from developers/manufacturers. It's market share will skyrocket. Fact. Those that gave the support then get more sales.


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Because Valve are not a company that always goes with what is normal.

Think about it, the thing everyone complains about with Linux is the lack of game support. If Valve make Steam for Linux, and port the Source engine, they would open the floodgate of would-be linux users. They could nigh-on *create* the market.

Before the TV was made mainstream, I'm sure people could have said 'Why would anyone broadcast on TV when Radio is so popular?' - You are saying the same thing.

*If Linux gets software and hardware support from developers/manufacturers. It's market share will skyrocket. Fact. Those that gave the support then get more sales.*



The problem is that it would commercialize linux and make it _too_ mainstream; eventually, it would kill the idea of free and open source when manufactures make too many demands. The only reason why the support is like it is: because manufactures are unwilling to make their products open source....


----------



## razar

Latty, this is a quite interesting thread you started here.....I've read through most of it, interesting indeed. From my perspective (linux user for over 10yrs now) linux has come a long way and it's very usable by most people. There are still a few issues that keep it from the mainstream. It's licensing, and it's stigma related to difficulty. Open source is good but it won't replace closed in our lifetimes if ever. I won't go into all the boring details but lets just say they both have their place and serve the public well. One good thing is that stigma related to difficulty or having a high learning curve for new users is steadily dwindling. Hmmm did I say that was a good thing....that musta slipped out. At any rate some of those new users can provide some good comedic moments.

Man I must be old school now......OldManVoice "Why....in my day we didn't have a GUI......and if you wanted to install one, well then by god you had to compile it.....and we LIKED IT!" /OldManVoice

At any rate....to me it's a very useful OS for getting work done. At work it's all I use, I have a multimonitor FedoraCore8 running and an rPath Linux host for rPath dev work. At home though, I use my comp for gaming, and well, we know who wins out in that respect.

I must fall into your 3rd category LOL.

Edit: FYI I've never tried Ubuntu. 
Linux flavors I've used/admin'd/dev'd for: RedHat, SuSE, United Linux, Debian, Slackware, Mandrake (now Mandriva), Fedora, rPath/Foresight linux 
Unix flavors I've admin'd: OSF, AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Tru-64, SCO (shudder)


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *razar*


Latty, this is a quite interesting thread you started here.....I've read through most of it, interesting indeed. From my perspective (linux user for over 10yrs now) linux has come a long way and it's very usable by most people. There are still a few issues that keep it from the mainstream. It's licensing, and it's stigma related to difficulty. Open source is good but it won't replace closed in our lifetimes if ever. I won't go into all the boring details but lets just say they both have their place and serve the public well. One good thing is that stigma related to difficulty or having a high learning curve for new users is steadily dwindling. Hmmm did I say that was a good thing....that musta slipped out. At any rate some of those new users can provide some good comedic moments.

Man I must be old school now......OldManVoice "Why....in my day we didn't have a GUI......and if you wanted to install one, well then by god you had to compile it.....and we LIKED IT!" /OldManVoice

At any rate....to me it's a very useful OS for getting work done. At work it's all I use, I have a multimonitor FedoraCore8 running and an rPath Linux host for rPath dev work. At home though, I use my comp for gaming, and well, we know who wins out in that respect.

I must fall into your 3rd category LOL.

Edit: FYI I've never tried Ubuntu. 
Linux flavors I've used/admin'd/dev'd for: RedHat, SuSE, United Linux, Debian, Slackware, Mandrake (now Mandriva), Fedora, rPath/Foresight linux 
Unix flavors I've admin'd: OSF, AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Tru-64, SCO (shudder)


Heh, I like not having a GUI to begin with too. You should try out Arch, it is beautiful. You start off with the most basic system you would want, you then get everything you want and install it. Pacman is there for ease, and AUR makes compiling routine stuff easy. It's a wonderful distro. I'm missing it already (I installed Hardy x64 after a hard drive died, as I didn't have time to set up Arch again. I really should do again).

Thanks for the comments. I think we will see a much wider adaptation of Linux over the coming years though - it's getting better at such a rate.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *R3ap3R*


The problem is that it would commercialize linux and make it _too_ mainstream; eventually, it would kill the idea of free and open source when manufactures make too many demands. The only reason why the support is like it is: because manufactures are unwilling to make their products open source....


Not really, no one can make Linux not open source. That's the whole point of the GPL. Non-open and open code can live side by side, and when that happens, more and more code will end up opening up.


----------



## DigitalPhreak

As a sys admin I really dont like the idea of having to learn and know all of the ins and outs and advanced tasks of more than one platform. I already have trouble with dealing with M$ problems. Where would I go from just basic desktop use to being as advanced as I am with windows for Linux help? (Forums *arent* reliable and convenient enough to use when I need an answer to my problem NOW!) So many distros. So many possiblities. It seems ridiculous.

The linux world needs to learn to stick with one basic distro and just improve the hell out of that.

Think about it it for just a sec... Major movie studios have been slowly dropping off of the HD DVD bandwagon. (The better choice IMO for more reasons than I can count that have nothing to do with the quality of the format itself.) They have been doing this because having two formats out there is causing customer indifference about the technology and slow adoption rates. Basically, the customer is saying "I want there to be a clear winner here before I buy anything." Thats the nature of most people. Faced with too many choices (and in the case of the dvd formats, just two. And linux has like 10 or more.) causes you to become jaded. And I am definately jaded by Linux and all of its "possiblities".

Its mostly just feels overwhelming to even think about, not even switching, but even just using both for their qualities.

As a whole, my past (yes more than six months and with Redhat) experiences with linux have been ho-hum. My experiences with windows have had its ups and downs I must however admit.


----------



## timxirish

Nice post latty. I may show it to a couple of lan buddies I have. A few of them, when presented with running a linux distro, say "Why?" as if it's a statement rather than a question.

Here's another reason to run linux (in dual boot) for the list:

If you fubar your Windows install, you can use NTFS drivers to back up your data, whether that means burning CDs/DVDs or moving the files to another partition or drive. I actually have been in that scenario 2-3 times, and recently DID have have an XP install refusing to boot after upgrading to dual core within the past week. All my data was backed up with ease.. Makes reinstalling XP feel like less of a burden (even more so if you slipstream hotfixes and service packs into your disc).


----------



## R3ap3R

I agree with Phreak (as in telephone phreaking?)... I think that different distros do serve a limited purpose, ie RedHat v Mint... but it should be narrowed down to maybe 6 distros, including Ubuntu of course


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

I'm fine with all the distros...  It provides a variety of pre-installed stuff, and it's not like they're each whole different OSs. One package can more easily install in one OS, but, for example, a .deb file can be converted to a .rpm file and vice-versa. So a Debian/Ubuntu file is easily made available as a Fedora/Suse file. There isn't much negative to the variety of distros.


----------



## DigitalPhreak

OT (sorry):

Quote:


Originally Posted by *R3ap3R* 
(as in telephone phreaking)

Ya... Its my homage to the old days of "thinking outside of the box" so to speak. Except now its all digital and not so much analog. Hence "digital-phreak".

...I unno. It made sense to me at the time I thought it up.


----------



## R3ap3R

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak* 
OT (sorry):

Ya... Its my homage to the old days of "thinking outside of the box" so to speak. Except now its all digital and not so much analog. Hence "digital-phreak".

...I unno. It made sense to me at the time I thought it up.










lol... the art is still alive


----------



## lattyware

The only reason distros exist is because people want them. Remember, Linus Torvalds is not sat in some tower spawning distros with a stick of magic, people make them to suit them.

The fact of the matter is, that for most people, you just replace the word Linux with Ubuntu - for the non-nerd - it's what they want to run.


----------



## newphase

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
The only reason distros exist is because people want them. Remember, Linus Torvalds is not sat in some tower spawning distros with a stick of magic, people make them to suit them.

The fact of the matter is, that for most people, you just replace the word Linux with Ubuntu - for the non-nerd - it's what they want to run.

Which is, surely, the UNIQUE SELLING POINT of Linux... the fact that the word "linux" only describes the kernel. and that the end-(L)user can tweak and tune and customize their distro to their hearts-content... this I believe, is the point where peeps begin to get bogged-down. It does frighten people somewhat that there are so many flavours of *nix. But that fear is just ignorance, and can be resolved in a 10 minute conversation ^_^

I sold 2 linux machines this month to people over 60 years old. They were born "tinkerers" and relishesd the freedom and "permanent learning curve" aspect of *nix.

If Steam were on linux I would drop window$ in a second!


----------



## ILOVEPOTtery

I think if I want to squeeze everything out of my X2 for folding, I may just have to try Linux. I've always wanted to try, I guess this gives em an excuse to get my feet wet.


----------



## hamsan

Ahh, Linux. Been using it since RedHat was RedHat and Mandriva was Mandrake. But alas... there are the following "holes" that prevent me from using it full-time:

1. *Software Library.* Sorry, Linux; Windows gots more! Now after that small dose of bad grammar, the explanation. Microsuck has been at the GUI OS game for so long, that entire libraries of their spaghetti code are considered programming _standard_. Ugh. You would think that the developer community would embrace Linux, since most games could easily be ported to Gnome or KDE, but since MS has the code game in a chokehold... viscous cycle.

This means either an army of programmers starts porting new titles to Linux, or the cycle continues. Photoshop (or any Adobe stuff really), Games, DirectX, and Flash is sketchy. Sure, WINE and Crossover exist, but to emulate a system within a system... well, let's just say average Joe doesn't want poor performance.

2. *GUI crashes.* What?!?!? Blasphemy! Surely Linux is uncrashable! _Not so._ And for the Linux fanboys I repeat it again: Not... so. I have used gIMP extensively in ubuntu Feisty Fawn and later, and while very good... has managed to crash out the system. Occasionally in GNOME an oddball issue starts happening with display of filenames / icons dissapearing. Sometimes the window system dowsn't want to draw certain things, which requires a what... restart!

Wine loves to crash too; especially if you go against the cardinal sin of alternate OS and don't read the FAQs and supported program lists and blah blah blah and install a Windows program it can't run. Then you have the fun of hunting down the files and removing them individually. Hooray! Another thing that Average Joe has zero tolerance for!

3. *Cryptic support.* Most program writers expect their Linux programs will work perfectly on every Linux box in the world after they write them, that's why when it comes to support, they glaze over and their subconscious mind starts vomiting jargon at you. Or they straight up tell you that their program is like an as-is AMC Eagle on the used car lot... no support.

4. *Hardware.* Touchy subject with the Linux crowd, since this sticking point is one that most Linux users would defend to the death. But I give you just one of many examples: The Dell AIO 962 All-In-One printer. I dare you to Google this with the work Linux. No really, do it now, and come back to this article. No support, and none in sight. *No it does not work with any other driver from any other model.* I say that just to shut up those that would quell my argument by vomiting jargon again on the subject of solving the support issue.

I digress... if you want your hardware to work, In Windows, it will work as long as you have the driver and the performance to handle it. In Linux, it's an eight hour ordeal to get it to work on a third-grade level.

Now before you revert to total despair that Windows will soon rule the earth like the Dinosaurs did, think of it this way. People need to gripe to the right channels to force the hand of the corporate world to start *porting their software to Linux.* Another viscous cycle; why would a company spend the money for a programmer to port a driver, program, etc. to Linux if there aren't enough n00bs out there using it? And of those that are using it, they get helped by their dorm roommate who's knuckle-deep in programming language classes.

So the real answer to why Linux isn't killing Windows is simple: We are all guilty. Most folks are complacent; no sense in re-inventing the wheel if the current one rolls. So until the software giants start providing Linux versions right along side Windows versions... Many are doomed to be slaves to a system based on monkey turds.

And that's the truth, pffffffffft.


----------



## lattyware

I disagree on software, everything I need, I get. There are a few things that are not there, admittedly, but they are few and far between, and I find the Linux software tends to be far better than the windows alternative, and free (both as in beer and speech).

I have never had a GUI crash like that, and I'm running the development version of ubuntu, so that's odd.


----------



## newphase

I have had KDE go arse-up, but never to the point where I haven't been able to switch to a terminal and kill it/restart it.

Its never forced me to reboot though.


----------



## legoman786

I've been looking like crazy for an application similar to the mac dock, and also how do I keep my 500GB disk always mounted?


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


I've been looking like crazy for an application similar to the mac dock, and also how do I keep my 500GB disk always mounted?


http://code.google.com/p/avant-window-navigator/

You need to edit your fstab file http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/fstab.html


----------



## DigitalPhreak

Quote:



Originally Posted by *hamsan*


Ahh, Linux. Been using it since RedHat was RedHat and Mandriva was Mandrake. But alas... there are the following "holes" that prevent me from using it full-time:

1. *Software Library.* Sorry, Linux; Windows gots more! Now after that small dose of bad grammar, the explanation. Microsuck has been at the GUI OS game for so long, that entire libraries of their spaghetti code are considered programming _standard_. Ugh. You would think that the developer community would embrace Linux, since most games could easily be ported to Gnome or KDE, but since MS has the code game in a chokehold... viscous cycle.

This means either an army of programmers starts porting new titles to Linux, or the cycle continues. Photoshop (or any Adobe stuff really), Games, DirectX, and Flash is sketchy. Sure, WINE and Crossover exist, but to emulate a system within a system... well, let's just say average Joe doesn't want poor performance.

2. *GUI crashes.* What?!?!? Blasphemy! Surely Linux is uncrashable! _Not so._ And for the Linux fanboys I repeat it again: Not... so. I have used gIMP extensively in ubuntu Feisty Fawn and later, and while very good... has managed to crash out the system. Occasionally in GNOME an oddball issue starts happening with display of filenames / icons dissapearing. Sometimes the window system dowsn't want to draw certain things, which requires a what... restart!

Wine loves to crash too; especially if you go against the cardinal sin of alternate OS and don't read the FAQs and supported program lists and blah blah blah and install a Windows program it can't run. Then you have the fun of hunting down the files and removing them individually. Hooray! Another thing that Average Joe has zero tolerance for!

3. *Cryptic support.* Most program writers expect their Linux programs will work perfectly on every Linux box in the world after they write them, that's why when it comes to support, they glaze over and their subconscious mind starts vomiting jargon at you. Or they straight up tell you that their program is like an as-is AMC Eagle on the used car lot... no support.

4. *Hardware.* Touchy subject with the Linux crowd, since this sticking point is one that most Linux users would defend to the death. But I give you just one of many examples: The Dell AIO 962 All-In-One printer. I dare you to Google this with the work Linux. No really, do it now, and come back to this article. No support, and none in sight. *No it does not work with any other driver from any other model.* I say that just to shut up those that would quell my argument by vomiting jargon again on the subject of solving the support issue.

I digress... if you want your hardware to work, In Windows, it will work as long as you have the driver and the performance to handle it. In Linux, it's an eight hour ordeal to get it to work on a third-grade level.

Now before you revert to total despair that Windows will soon rule the earth like the Dinosaurs did, think of it this way. People need to gripe to the right channels to force the hand of the corporate world to start *porting their software to Linux.* Another viscous cycle; why would a company spend the money for a programmer to port a driver, program, etc. to Linux if there aren't enough n00bs out there using it? And of those that are using it, they get helped by their dorm roommate who's knuckle-deep in programming language classes.

So the real answer to why Linux isn't killing Windows is simple: We are all guilty. Most folks are complacent; no sense in re-inventing the wheel if the current one rolls. So until the software giants start providing Linux versions right along side Windows versions... Many are doomed to be slaves to a system based on monkey turds.

And that's the truth, pffffffffft.


I like this guy. Everything he says here makes perfect sense. He puts very plainly why the world has not embraced linux. Be it for good or bad reasons...


----------



## lattyware

I think that some of those reasons don't apply any more, or are being fixed fast, although they are the main standing reasons why people don't use Linux.

The only one I disagree with is 1. There is a huge range of software for Linux, and it does 99% of what needs to be done. I'm not saying the 1% does not exist, but I generally prefer the Linux software, and it's easier to find and use, in my experience.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


The only one I disagree with is 1. There is a huge range of software for Linux, and it does 99% of what needs to be done. I'm not saying the 1% does not exist, but I generally prefer the Linux software, and it's easier to find and use, in my experience.


Same. I don't know of any software that the average household depends on for which Linux doesn't have a program. Game aside, of course.

Linux can do very easily:

1. Office
2. Music
3. Videos
4. E-mail
5. Chat/Instant Messaging
6. Web Browsing
7. Picture Editing (ok, not as good as photoshop, but I still said "average household;" average household doesn't have PS)
8. Programming (again, probably not average)

Those are the most basic tasks I can think of at the moment. Linux can do all of them.


----------



## XAslanX

Add me to the group. Have an old P4 rig with no OS for it, tried Ubuntu,Mandriva, and finally Linux Mint. I love linux mint so easy too use, and the best part is the ability to install and run games on it


----------



## DigitalPhreak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Linux can do very easily:
*1. Game*
1. Office
2. Music
3. Videos
4. E-mail
5. Chat/Instant Messaging
6. Web Browsing
7. Picture Editing (ok, not as good as photoshop, but I still said "average household;" average household doesn't have PS)
8. Programming (again, probably not average)


FIXED


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak*


FIXED










Wow, go DP! Cut off the sentence right before in order to mock me.

Just for the reference, the sentence right before was, "Gaming aside."

wink, wink.


----------



## Melcar

Linux can game. Crapload of Linux games too, both free and non-free.


----------



## Spart

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Melcar*


Linux can game. Crapload of Linux games too, both free and non-free.


Hmmz. An MMO or FPS I love or a coded for linux free game.......


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Melcar*


Linux can game. Crapload of Linux games too, both free and non-free.


Yeah, there are lots of games, just not the commercial ones you see in stores.

My favorite games are Linux-compatible. Better yet, they're Linux native. Possibly even better yet, they're free


----------



## Spart

I have nothing against linux and I'm even considering installing it on my dads old POS dell so he can have a decently fast PC. Its so old even Windows XP crawls. I think AOL is the culprit though. After all it's the only virus you have to pay for. I just don't have a use for Linux myself. I run Vista Ultimate 32bit SP1 and absolutely LOVE IT. I have had no issues except one BSOD that I got while oc'ing.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Spart*


I have nothing against linux and I'm even considering installing it on my dads old POS dell so he can have a decently fast PC. Its so old even Windows XP crawls. I think AOL is the culprit though. After all it's the only virus you have to pay for. I just don't have a use for Linux myself. I run Vista Ultimate 32bit SP1 and absolutely LOVE IT. I have had no issues except one BSOD that I got while oc'ing.


Well done for completely missing the point of this thread.


----------



## 2Luke2

If it supported games I would use it, but it doesn't so there for it doesn't get used.


----------



## 2Luke2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Yeah, there are lots of games, just not the commercial ones you see in stores.


My point exactly...


----------



## stupid

I have an honest question which I do not understand:
Why do Linux users feel the need to push their OS on others like a Jehovah's witness? Why are they not content just letting people use what they use if they are happy? If they are not happy, won't they go looking for an alternative? And if they don't, isn't it their own fault?


----------



## Melcar

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stupid* 
I have an honest question which I do not understand:
Why do Linux users feel the need to push their OS on others like a Jehovah's witness? Why are they not content just letting people use what they use if they are happy? If they are not happy, won't they go looking for an alternative? And if they don't, isn't it their own fault?


General Tux is amassing his army and we have been charged with gathering recruits.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2Luke2* 
If it supported games I would use it, but it doesn't so there for it doesn't get used.


It has games, and probably more than Windows. If you want change, well, that sort of change comes from the end user. Stop buying Windows games and support the companies that release Linux clients (like Epic, Id, Bioware, etc.)


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *stupid*


I have an honest question which I do not understand:
Why do Linux users feel the need to push their OS on others like a Jehovah's witness? Why are they not content just letting people use what they use if they are happy? If they are not happy, won't they go looking for an alternative? And if they don't, isn't it their own fault?


I have an honest question which I do not understand... Why must windows users always feel they are under attack when someone suggests or recommends something different?

I mean, there are plenty of "Wow, I just switched to vista; I like it. I think other people should try it, too" threads, so why is someone who says the same for Linux a "jehova's witness?"

I would think it is kind for one to share something he found he likes and enjoys.


----------



## DigitalPhreak

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Wow, go DP! Cut off the sentence right before in order to mock me.

Just for the reference, the sentence right before was, "Gaming aside."

wink, wink.


WOW gunner... You are so sensitive. I was just being playful. I wasnt trying to mock you.


----------



## DigitalPhreak

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Spart*


I have nothing against linux and I'm even considering installing it on my dads old POS dell so he can have a decently fast PC. Its so old even Windows XP crawls. I think AOL is the culprit though. After all it's the only virus you have to pay for. I just don't have a use for Linux myself. I run Vista Ultimate 32bit SP1 and absolutely LOVE IT. I have had no issues except one BSOD that I got while oc'ing.


According to my experience with newer distros of linux, if XP runs like crap then so will newer distros of linux if you are running the gui. Its not like linux has some magically ability to render a gui any better than any other OS... The only way it would be faster is if you were operating from command line only.

Who wants to do that ******edness for everyday use?


----------



## legoman786

I've had my first crash... It's due to drivers. It's annoying the crap outta me.


----------



## Spart

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Well done for completely missing the point of this thread.









What I was aiming at is I don't have a reason to try another OS.


----------



## 2Luke2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Melcar*


General Tux is amassing his army and we have been charged with gathering recruits.

It has games, and probably more than Windows. If you want change, well, that sort of change comes from the end user. Stop buying Windows games and support the companies that release Linux clients (like Epic, Id, Bioware, etc.)


True, but a lot of the mainstream games is what I like to play. If they supported Linux I would jump on the band wagon to try to put Microshaft out of business or at least take mine somewhere else.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spart* 
What I was aiming at is I don't have a reason to try another OS.

Exactly, and the topic of this thread is "Take the challenge." Not "here are my windows justifications."

He already went over all the justifications; this thread is about taking the challenge.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak* 
According to my experience with newer distros of linux, if XP runs like crap then so will newer distros of linux if you are running the gui. Its not like linux has some magically ability to render a gui any better than any other OS... The only way it would be faster is if you were operating from command line only.

Who wants to do that ******edness for everyday use?

Go try an XFCE or Fluxbox based distro, your argument is completely nullified.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stupid* 
I have an honest question which I do not understand:
Why do Linux users feel the need to push their OS on others like a Jehovah's witness? Why are they not content just letting people use what they use if they are happy? If they are not happy, won't they go looking for an alternative? And if they don't, isn't it their own fault?

Feel free to ignore me all day









I push Linux because it's a great OS, and I think people who don't know about it should take a look because they could be missing out. There are other more selfish reasons (more users means more support (drivers, software, etc...), but it really is just mainly I like to let people know about good things.


----------



## DigitalPhreak

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Go try an XFCE or Fluxbox based distro, your argument is completely nullified.


Probably not, as those two distros will likely have some other deal breaker limitation.


----------



## 21276

Quote:



Originally Posted by *stupid*


I have an honest question which I do not understand:
Why do Linux users feel the need to push their OS on others like a Jehovah's witness? Why are they not content just letting people use what they use if they are happy? If they are not happy, won't they go looking for an alternative? And if they don't, isn't it their own fault?



us linux enthusiasts are not to be compared with jehovah's witnesses. - bringing religion into it does not make a good, valid arguement.

besides, we dont knock on your door and say SWITCH TO LINUX; rather, someone like Latty posts a completely legit challenge simply stating that you try linux, and decide for yourself what is good for you.

unfortunately, we usually answer our doors, but this is a post titled "Never been convinced by Linux? Here is a challenge for you." -- the title shows exactly what this thread is about, and unlike our front doors, we retain the ability to not open it and read.


----------



## DigitalPhreak

Tell me why Linux people are always on some sort of crusade and why MAC people are so proud. Why cant you guys that like what you like and be satisfied. You dont see windows users running around trying to get linux an mac users to switch. Its like all of you (linux and mac users) have found the promise land and have an undying need to let everyone know where you live.

I CHALLENGE YOU LINUX USERS...

INSTALL VISTA FOR 2 WEEKS... Then come back and tell me that it isnt just as capable and stable as anything else out there.


----------



## jpark59

Linux is powerful if you know how to use piping, regular expression, shell scripting..
Otherwise, it's no useful..

it's for Programmers or administrators
not for regular users.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak* 
Tell me why Linux people are always on some sort of crusade and why MAC people are so proud. Why cant you guys that like what you like and be satisfied. You dont see windows users running around trying to get linux an mac users to switch. Its like all of you (linux and mac users) have found the promise land and have an undying need to let everyone know where you live.

That's pretty much it, we have switched, were amazed by how awesome it was when we did switch, and we want to share that experience, just like when someone tests a new piece of hardware that blows what they used to have out of the water. You are asking why Linux users always talk about it - maybe because it is worth talking about?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak* 
I CHALLENGE YOU LINUX USERS...

INSTALL VISTA FOR 2 WEEKS... Then come back and tell me that it isnt just as capable and stable as anything else out there.

I have done this, I tried vista for a while after I installed it for gaming. It's just not as good, it's annoying to install software, running antivirus software is annoying, it's harder to find good software, I can't customize anything to the way I like it. It's slower to boot, and much else.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak* 
Probably not, as those two distros will likely have some other deal breaker limitation.

Not distros, desktop environments. And no, they are both amazingly capable, XFCE is nigh-on perfect.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak*


Tell me why Linux people are always on some sort of crusade and why MAC people are so proud.


Tell me why windows people are always so defensive, acting as if they are being attacked whenever the name of any other OS pops up?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak*


You dont see windows users running around trying to get linux an mac users to switch.


lol that's because you don't switch from Linux to windows










At least in most cases.

And actually, you should see the amount of vista defend-o-maniacs running around trying to get XP users to switch. It's real.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak*


Its like all of you (linux and mac users) have found the promise land and have an undying need to let everyone know where you live.


Is it that windows users feel inferior or something? Why do they always feel like everyone else is out to get them?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DigitalPhreak*


I CHALLENGE YOU LINUX USERS...

INSTALL VISTA FOR 2 WEEKS... Then come back and tell me that it isnt just as capable and stable as anything else out there.


Once again, windows users switch to Linux, not the other way around.

I had vista for a number of months before I dumped it. It's plenty capable and stable, but XP just runs my games better... And that's the ONLY thing I need windows for. I run the OS for no other reason; I don't even have AV on it. There's no reason for me or people like me to pay $400 for an OS when the free one does everything (save for games) even better.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *jpark59*


Linux is powerful if you know how to use piping, regular expression, shell scripting..
Otherwise, it's no useful..

it's for Programmers or administrators
not for regular users.


www.ubuntu.com


----------



## Jacko87

Ok I finally got Linux up and running, its Ubuntu 7.04 and I hate it. The only reason I have it is for folding. It took forever to setup, 7.10 just didn't not want to work at all so I tried a different version. The tiniest tasks take so long to find out how to do, I spent about an hour setting up SMP, I tried setting up video drivers resulting in a blank screen upon restart, after some searching I found a command to reconfigure xserver or whatever its called so that got worked out, also my side mouse buttons don't work (yes I tried the guide here on to get them to work, and it didn't). Everything needs to be done from the terminal, I tired installing Fahmon, but it seems as if I have to compile it myself, so I download the packages I need to compile it, I follow all the directions only to have it fail midway in because I'm missing some package that I can't even find in the synaptic package manager. The only good thing about linux is that my folding times are about 2 minutes less than in Windows.

Well thats enough ranting, but I agree with digitalphreak, they should make only one or a few distros and expand support for those.


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Jacko87*


Ok I finally got Linux up and running, its Ubuntu 7.04 and I hate it.


Wait 6 days, get Ubuntu 8.04 when it's released.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Jacko87*


Ok I finally got Linux up and running, its Ubuntu 7.04 and I hate it. The only reason I have it is for folding. It took forever to setup, 7.10 just didn't not want to work at all so I tried a different version. The tiniest tasks take so long to find out how to do, I spent about an hour setting up SMP, I tried setting up video drivers resulting in a blank screen upon restart, after some searching I found a command to reconfigure xserver or whatever its called so that got worked out, also my side mouse buttons don't work (yes I tried the guide here on to get them to work, and it didn't). Everything needs to be done from the terminal, I tired installing Fahmon, but it seems as if I have to compile it myself, so I download the packages I need to compile it, I follow all the directions only to have it fail midway in because I'm missing some package that I can't even find in the synaptic package manager. The only good thing about linux is that my folding times are about 2 minutes less than in Windows.


That sounds like you've had some bad experiences, but it also sounds like you haven't tried to use Linux for general use. It may have been a pain (for you) to set up, but because of that, why not try to use it? Frankly, I suspect you have been looking at old guides, now-a-days, graphics drivers, for example, the nVidia drivers are available via the restricted driver manager. It's a one-click setup which I can't see going wrong. If you did a more complex method (envy, nVidia binary), then that's probably your problem.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Jacko87*


Well thats enough ranting, but I agree with digitalphreak, they should make only one or a few distros and expand support for those.


That would destroy the choice Linux gives you. Besides, you can't limit the community like that.


----------



## Jacko87

I tired countless guides on graphics drivers, including going to the restricted driver manager, when I go to it, it says my system doesn't need any restricted drivers or something along those lines, I also tried Envy which automatically installed drivers that also resulted in a black screen upon restart and for me to have to reconfigure xserver.

Nothing ever works for me in Linux, a while back I tired installing Linux and it told me it couldn't find my CD-ROM drive and I needed drivers for it, what I want to know is how it was reading the installation disc up to that point without "CD-ROM drivers".

And if you think I could try to use it as a general OS when it can't even detect mouse buttons correctly, install video drivers, or do any other simple task without extensive research for my one distro and version number out of the thousand others out there...well you must be joking







. I'll stick with the only thing I know in Linux, Terminal: ~/foldingathome/folding start


----------



## lattyware

I guess you just are unlucky and have a lot of unsupported hardware (and some kind of weird issue with the nVidia drivers, I have seen loads of people with 8800GTSes working fine with one click installs).

Maybe try out 8.04 and see if your issues have been fixed - a lot can change in two versions.


----------



## kneeki

I tried the 8.04 Ubuntu release a few days ago (it's still installed, and I'm still using it) and it worked great. Although I had like 400ish updates I had to do, once those were done it was running like a champ. Even had fancy desktop graphics + wow playing at the same time. No issues/stuttering at all.


----------



## rfarris

I always wait for the none beta release... which is tomorrow btw.


----------



## kneeki

Quote:



Originally Posted by *rfarris*


I always wait for the none beta release... which is tomorrow btw.


excited!


----------



## biatchi

[email protected] to uninstall/install newest









rolling release FTwinz


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
[email protected] to uninstall/install newest









rolling release FTwinz









Indeed. I'd hardly recommend Arch to newbs though.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Indeed. I'd hardly recommend Arch to newbs though.

Lol I'm kinda noob though really, I'm always having to hit up wiki's and forums but i get by actually quite well thinking about it. I do need to take it to the next level though and start writing my own stuff


----------



## legoman786

Sweet... first post from Hardy Heron... *LOVE* the new desktop pic. Though, I have to install everything all over again... Flash, proprietary drivers, Audacious... ugh, it's a vicious cycle... At least the generic drivers worked right off the bat.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Now is a great time to take the challenge, people:

http://www.ubuntu.com/

8.04 was just released, and Ubuntu is better than ever!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tweakboy* 
Linux or Linux compatibility is a joke. If you dont wanna use apps or games, then yes go with Linux if it makes you happy.

But recently PC Magazine had a test 1500 tech testers and they said the best OS is 7 years old. Speaking of XP ,, thru SP3 now, It is the most secure stable and perfomance is higher. They also tested Vista and OSX 10.5 ,

vista came in second. but 75 percent of the testers said they will never switch over to Vista,,

Uncle Billys new OS is WindowsME of the new millinium. But now they have complete control over everything you do and picky and slow performing.

XP is faster period, but Sp1 for vista makes right click a file or menu pop up in 2 seconds instead of the original 5 .. LOL XP is 0 seconds..... WGA got knocked off,, XP is the last of the great OSes, and as long as it does what I want it to and doesnt give me problem, why switch over!!! If I want juicy graphics Ill go play a game, I dont need a interface that makes thing more confusing. I wanna get my work done, and Win2000 with sp5 is pretty amazing still...... good thread!!!

95% of that made no sense. And those statistics I'd want more detail on before commenting.

As to if you want apps? Please. Linux has just as good as, if not better than, a selection of software, except for games.


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *tweakboy*


Linux or Linux compatibility is a joke. If you dont wanna use apps or games, then yes go with Linux if it makes you happy.


Games yes... Apps certainly not














No Way Jose!

Quote:



Originally Posted by *tweakboy*


But recently PC Magazine had a test 1500 tech testers and they said the best OS is 7 years old. Speaking of XP ,, thru SP3 now, It is the most secure stable and perfomance is higher. They also tested Vista and OSX 10.5 ,

vista came in second. but 75 percent of the testers said they will never switch over to Vista,,


I seriously would stake my own haircut that XP is as not as secure as a properly configured linux box. I am NOT saying that XP is insecure, btw







Just that having total-control of your OS makes for, by definition, a more secure environment.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *tweakboy*


XP is faster period, but Sp1 for vista makes right click a file or menu pop up in 2 seconds instead of the original 5 .. LOL XP is 0 seconds..... WGA got knocked off,, XP is the last of the great OSes, and as long as it does what I want it to and doesnt give me problem, why switch over!!! If I want juicy graphics Ill go play a game, I dont need a interface that makes thing more confusing. I wanna get my work done, and Win2000 with sp5 is pretty amazing still...... good thread!!!


XP may be faster than Vista; Although I must say that Vista64 is very responsive on my new sig-rig. I kept the eye-candy on for a few days, then turned it all off lol. Even so, my games ran fine with Aero on, my shortcuts respond immediately to a r-click and-so-on.

As for the overall speed and graphical goodness of linux (with compiz or Beryl) It really knocks the socks of Vista. 
Example: my lappy has a low-end ATI graphics card and when I tried Vista RC2, it would not let me enable any Aero features whatsoever. The same lappy running Sabayon-Linux coped easily and admirably with ALL the features of Beryl turned on (Wobbly windows, transparency, Cube multi-desktops, etc).

Thats my tuppence.

Peace.


----------



## lattyware

Windows XP is not the most stable and secure, that's just blatant lying. I'm not saying Windows is unstable (although many would say it is), but rather there is absolutely nothing that would prove what you are saying. The general consensus is that Linux is more stable and secure.


----------



## Boyboyd

ive never had any issues with stability, not with xp, vista, and more recently ubuntu (7.10).

I like ubuntu alot. There was a time when i left my pc booted into it 24/7 folding. I tend to use it less at the moment. I like the feel of open office and it is enough for 95% of my office needs.

I also like that it is free







even though i paid Â£3 for my disc to be next-day delivered. The multi monitor support is also better than vista's if i were being honest.

I think more people should take this challenge. Remember that you don't have to install Linux to try it, live is your friend.

Also: Pronunciation. Line-ux or Lin-ux. I usually say the 2nd but its bugging me now


----------



## newphase

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boydyboyd* 
I think more people should take this challenge. Remember that you don't have to install Linux to try it, live is your friend.

QFT - people should be more inquisitive lol

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boydyboyd* 
Also: Pronunciation. Line-ux or Lin-ux. I usually say the 2nd but its bugging me now

'pparently its lee-nux... after lee-nus Torvalds.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newphase* 
QFT - people should be more inquisitive lol

'pparently its lee-nux... after lee-nus Torvalds.

There is no 'right' way, but as Linus Torvalds made it, he is the one most would look to. Torvalds released an audio file in which he says:

'My name is Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux "Lih-nuhx".'

So Lih-nuhx, as opposed to Lie-nuhx, is the 'correct' pronunciation, but frankly, either works.

Edit: Apparently he has changed his preference slightly, but both are in common usage, and as such, you can use either safely. On a side note, you said 'Lee-nus Torvalds, it's pronounced 'Linus' as in 'Light' and a group of 'us'.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newphase* 
QFT - people should be more inquisitive lol

'pparently its lee-nux... after lee-nus Torvalds.

thanks









should have thought about Linus Torvalds earlier, makes sense now


----------



## newphase

Anyways... too many peeps miss the point of the thread... give it a try... you never know you might like it ^_^

Variety is the spice of life, after all.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Wow, Ubuntu 8.04 actually works on my sister's laptop. I've tried countless distros, but none of them have been able to satisfy my following requirements:

1. Easy to use
2. Will boot a GUI w/o compatibility problems
3. Wi-fi works out of the box

Hardy Heron does it all!

Now, I just need to wait for the servers to clear up a bit so I can update....

THG approves! www.ubuntu.com


----------



## Blue_Fire

After i read the first post in the thread, i decided to intall ubuntu 8.04 beta. After a 30 minute "i can't get my sound to work" problem, turned into a three day problem of still no sound (but now i have great video, and a couple of other random cool tidbits installed) im a little ticked.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Blue_Fire*


After i read the first post in the thread, i decided to intall ubuntu 8.04 beta.


Now download 8.04 FINAL


----------



## Blue_Fire

Somehow i really doubt that will fix my sound issue. but it will be the first thing i do when i boot into linux next... everything was perfect up until this point too. Lol all i need is for linux to run hellgate now and ill be set.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Well... I've officially got Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron running fully functionally on my sister's laptop (Sempron 1.6GHz, 256MB RAM, 40GB HDD, SiS graphics), and boy, does it fly! It pwns the XP that it used to have; it's much faster.

Wireless was detected out of the box (Ralink rt2500). Special sound buttons on the keyboard work. The sound itself works. It took some configuring to get my monitor's resolution, though, since the graphics (SiS) is unsupported AND the fact that I had to install in safe graphics mode since trying to load up the live disk in full mode isn't friendly on her laptop.

So... I guess you can say my sister has taken the challenge and is loving Linux


----------



## lattyware

I'm afraid you are never going to get sound, unless Creative sort their game.

The X-Fi cards have no support from creative, and do not work, as far as I am aware. You could switch to onboard sound while using Linux.


----------



## 53977

I tried Ubuntu but what ticked me off was the commands to install programs. It's like linux is living in the dos ages with all these commands.


----------



## JCJP

Quote:



Originally Posted by *wolf_08*


I tried Ubuntu but what ticked me off was the commands to install programs. It's like linux is living in the dos ages with all these commands.


Oh noez. Terminal is liek, so harz.

*smahes keyboard in frustration*

Sudo aptitude install ______ is soooooo hard


----------



## 53977

Try Cisco terminals they are much easier than linux's.


----------



## Blameless

Any terminal/command line OS is near impossible when you know nothing of the commands needed.

I'm quite competent with DOS and can mange pretty well with BASIC (C64/Apple II style), but I would need a good manual for linux/unix type stuff.

I first tried linux back in 1996, and due to not having modem drivers, I had no real way of accessing any documentation. It's been the same story for most of my other attempts.

Recently, I've had more success, but I've never really been able to get everything in recent systems to work correctly, and lack of good, (well organized and coherent) documentation is still a problem for me. I realize that 99.9% of my trouble with linux directly stems from my ignorance, but the problem is that I have no straightforward way to remedy such ignorance.


----------



## h3xw1z4rd

I love linux, and I love the terminal. Used to give me the feeling I have more control over the system, problem being im a avid gamer. And getting a game to work is a pain and then once it working having to change wine each time I want to play a new game "if supported" got tireing so im quite happy with xp atm. I will get criticism for this but I cant stand vista. I have used it on my mate's pc and tbh I would rather go back to linux then go to vista, I just found vista installing programs and copying files and overall system performance slower then in xp "not sure this is true for all though" just my personal opinion.


----------



## arkheii

I had a Fedora partition on one of my drives, back when my rig was still a P4 1.5Ghz with 384MB RDRAM. I used it whenever I had to code in NetBeans 5 because my system couldn't handle it whenever I ran it on Windows (Java hangs/crashes). On a side note, I had a problem with Firef*cks randomly crashing back then on both Windows and Fedora, and now I am a happy Opera user.

There was also a time when my brother's harddrive got corrupted and I couldn't install XP on it because it needed SATA drivers. I temporarily installed Kubuntu on his PC just so he would have something to use for the week, but he was a ***** and never even turned it on. He "doesn't know how to use it" he said. I guess no matter how pretty and "user-friendly" the distro may be, there will always be people who can't be bothered with trying something new, even if only for a short while. To people like him, different == confusing. And all he ever uses are IE and Yahoo Messenger.

Right now I'm using XP (since every gamer uses Windows







). Though back in the Win9x days I would have used Linux if I knew about it. I was thinking about installing a different distro on my laptop when I decided to make a torrentbox/file server out of it, but I decided to try out the Server 2003 disc that I got free from MSDNAA.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I'm afraid you are never going to get sound, unless Creative sort their game.

The X-Fi cards have no support from creative, and do not work, as far as I am aware. You could switch to onboard sound while using Linux.

i got my x-fi card to work, with the drivers that come with ubuntu 7.10









flac sounds great, all my music is in flac on my media hard drive and i can access it from ubuntu and windows.


----------



## alk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JCJP* 
Oh noez. Terminal is liek, so harz.

*smahes keyboard in frustration*

Sudo aptitude install ______ is soooooo hard

After reading what you've been posting for the last 3 hours I've come to a conclusion:

You are a patronising, ignorant moron.


----------



## tweakboy

Recently 1500 tech testers PC Magazine tested all OSes , They said the fastest, most secure and stable OS is XP , Then its Vista , then MAC OSX then Linux,

Plus, linux what you gonna use it for ? No apps No games,, LOL


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tweakboy* 
Recently 1500 tech testers PC Magazine tested all OSes , They said the fastest, most secure and stable OS is XP , Then its Vista , then MAC OSX then Linux,

Plus, linux what you gonna use it for ? No apps No games,, LOL
















ok, you trust your 1500 'tech testers', i'll trust my opinion.

i use linux for everything other than games. But of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion


----------



## xeonjon1608

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tweakboy* 
Recently 1500 tech testers PC Magazine tested all OSes , They said the fastest, most secure and stable OS is XP , Then its Vista , then MAC OSX then Linux,

Plus, linux what you gonna use it for ? No apps No games,, LOL
















Erm well all of that is untrue there are plenty of games that run on linux if you use WINE, and plus the eye candy on ubuntu is much better than Vista. I like linux alot but i think im gonna stick with Vista for the time being.


----------



## johnny9794

Man if Wine ran my cod and cod2 better than windows, which its laggy as hell and does not, I would be all over it like how i was all over ubuntu for a year just because I had a crap celeron d 1.7 that I could not game on anyhow.

I just downloaded ubuntu-8.04-alternate-amd64 just to stay in the breeze. I always download the new distro's, partition my drive, install to see how they are vs elder distro's.

But yea that is the only thing holding me back, maybe when I get my new processor and gfx card, wine will handle the games better? ionno but I sure will give it another shot with new hardware.

I love ubuntu but the gaming is what it is all about for I...


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolf_08* 
I tried Ubuntu but what ticked me off was the commands to install programs. It's like linux is living in the dos ages with all these commands.

It's called Synaptic Package manager. You can do it all via a nice GUI with point and click ease. It is actually impossible to not be able to work out how to use that, unless you can not use a mouse or something.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blameless* 
Any terminal/command line OS is near impossible when you know nothing of the commands needed.

I'm quite competent with DOS and can mange pretty well with BASIC (C64/Apple II style), but I would need a good manual for linux/unix type stuff.

I first tried linux back in 1996, and due to not having modem drivers, I had no real way of accessing any documentation. It's been the same story for most of my other attempts.

Recently, I've had more success, but I've never really been able to get everything in recent systems to work correctly, and lack of good, (well organized and coherent) documentation is still a problem for me. I realize that 99.9% of my trouble with linux directly stems from my ignorance, but the problem is that I have no straightforward way to remedy such ignorance.

Try not using the command line? You just don't need to in modern Linux. I do, as many do, because it makes our lives easier, but you don't have to these days. And 'learning' isn't hard, just search when you don't know and need to do something, and do it. Learn over time, by trial and error. It works.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boydyboyd* 
i got my x-fi card to work, with the drivers that come with ubuntu 7.10









flac sounds great, all my music is in flac on my media hard drive and i can access it from ubuntu and windows.

Really? Wow. I really didn't know there was any support. Nice. FLAC rocks. I love having lossless music.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tweakboy* 
Recently 1500 tech testers PC Magazine tested all OSes , They said the fastest, most secure and stable OS is XP , Then its Vista , then MAC OSX then Linux,

Plus, linux what you gonna use it for ? No apps No games,, LOL
















I honestly do try to refrain from personal insults, but here goes:

You, Sir, are an idiot.

These '1500 testers' you speak of, I can't find this article when I searched for it, and you have given no proof. Even if such a test exists, I bet that you are misquoting/misinterpreting it. In fact, the only thing I can find from PC magazine is this, which says MacOSX is the best OS, and then goes on to say Ubuntu is good for a number of roles. I disagree with a lot of what they say there, and think a lot of it is wrong or outdated, but still, It's not in any way a glowing victory for XP as you put it.

What are you going to use it for? Whatever you use a computer for. Browsing, Instant Messaging, Office Tools, Audio/Video playback/creation, Programming, Graphics work, Artwork, there is a huge list.

No Apps? That's just either extreme ignorance or plain lies. There is a huge range of extremely good software for Linux.

Don't state complete falsehoods please.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Really? Wow. I really didn't know there was any support. Nice. FLAC rocks. I love having lossless music.

yep. on a 64 bit too. I signed a petition for creative to release 64 bit drivers for it online...somewhere.

but ill let you in on a secret, it was by luck. It wasn't working one day then i started to hear sound coming from my headphones that were on my desk. At first i thought it was a glitch and somehow the sound was coming up the mic jack but i knew that couldnt happen









now i use rhythmbox for all my music, unless im playing a game then i use foobar2000 (in vista)


----------



## johnny9794

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolf_08* 
I tried Ubuntu but what ticked me off was the commands to install programs. It's like linux is living in the dos ages with all these commands.

man the cmds are fun, like if u need something u don't gotta browse web looking for it, its in the repositories.

sudo apt-get install nmap

its to easy!!!


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I'm afraid you are never going to get sound, unless Creative sort their game.

The X-Fi cards have no support from creative, and do not work, as far as I am aware. You could switch to onboard sound while using Linux.

The X-fi's work perfectly using Oss4 instead of Alsa


----------



## Unknownm

I'm not on linux because I'm unsure of:

A) Installing drivers if not supported when install
B) Kernel upgrade
C) Compiling a source. I always get "can't fine Package """. SO u always try to find the error in google but you can't. Readme doesn't say much lol

D) Using / Configuring X-Server


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolf_08* 
I tried Ubuntu but what ticked me off was the commands to install programs. It's like linux is living in the dos ages with all these commands.

I didn't know Ubuntu existed in 1998, back when you had to use a Terminal to install programs.

Here in 2008 (and even in 2005, when I first started with Linux), I can go to Add/Remove Programs, do a search for what I want, click a checkbox, hit "accept," and be on my merry way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blameless* 
Any terminal/command line OS is near impossible when you know nothing of the commands needed.

It's actually quite easy. Just learn the basic syntax and the basic commands, and you'll have no problem learning anything more specific.

Besides, you don't even have to use the Terminal in Ubuntu.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arkheii* 
To people like him, different == confusing. And all he ever uses are IE and Yahoo Messenger.

And this is why we're stuck in the windows cycle, where they get to charge over $300 for a desktop OS, and people will still feel they are forced to buy it.


----------



## Unknownm

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Unknownm*


I'm not on linux because I'm unsure of:

A) Installing drivers if not supported when install
B) Kernel upgrade
C) Compiling a source. I always get "can't fine Package """. SO u always try to find the error in google but you can't. Readme doesn't say much lol

D) Using / Configuring X-Server











anyone know?


----------



## Chipp

Quote:



Originally Posted by *tweakboy*


Recently 1500 tech testers PC Magazine tested all OSes , They said the fastest, most secure and stable OS is XP , Then its Vista , then MAC OSX then Linux,

Plus, linux what you gonna use it for ? No apps No games,, LOL

















Please don't come into a thread that has remained unbiased for the most part and post some kind of flame-war-inciting post.

And by the way, when you use the same material over and over it gets quite old and loses it's effectiveness. (Most of the posts you've made in linux threads are slightly paraphrased versions of the same thing). It's one thing to raise a point - but another to try and pound it home in threads that don't touch on the same issues you are.

Don't like linux? Fine - I respect that. But, I'd expect you to respect the linux users on this forum enough to not try and create flame wars.


----------



## Aaroman

Quote:



You stand nothing to loose


I'll take that as a complement.


----------



## Chipp

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Unknownm*


I'm not on linux because I'm unsure of:

A) Installing drivers if not supported when install
B) Kernel upgrade
C) Compiling a source. I always get "can't fine Package """. SO u always try to find the error in google but you can't. Readme doesn't say much lol

D) Using / Configuring X-Server











A) This one is not a huge problem with most hardware - what is it you were having problems with before?

B)It's all done for you by your distrobution's upgrade manager.







Of course, if you want to customize your own kernel it gets a little more difficult but it still easy enough as long as you know your hardware. Besides - if your current kernel is working, why upgrade? I only change kernels every major release just to save the hassle of rebuilding all my drivers and such.

C) This can be an issue, I know.







Generally you just have to run through the list of dependencies in the readme and make sure all of them are installed (sometimes you have to hunt down a specific version). Plugging the error into google might not help you out, but plugging in the name of the missing dependency almost certainly will.

D) Most major distributions are configured out of the box with a running X server, but even if you screw something up manually you have plenty of utilities available to you that will rebuild a generic xorg.conf (such as xorg -config, nvidia-xconfig, etc).


----------



## Blue_Fire

Quote:



Originally Posted by *boydyboyd*


i got my x-fi card to work, with the drivers that come with ubuntu 7.10









flac sounds great, all my music is in flac on my media hard drive and i can access it from ubuntu and windows.


You sir i would call a straight up liar, and i hope your not talking about your sig rig. Cause the soundblast audigy and x-fi are two very different things. Ubuntu 7.10 AND 8.04 LTS does not have stock support for the X-Fi series cards (xtreme gamer, pro, plat, elite,etc.) you need oss, or the creative ALSA driver equivelent. I have reinstalled about three times to try and get my sound card working.


----------



## Blue_Fire

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


The X-fi's work perfectly using Oss4 instead of Alsa










Very true IF they work at all. When they work i bet it sounds great.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unknownm* 
A) Installing drivers if not supported when install

Most of the time, things just work, and if they don't, there are step-by-step tutorials.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unknownm* 
B) Kernel upgrade

Let the distro handle that for you - you shouldn't even know it's happening with a distro like Ubuntu.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unknownm* 
C) Compiling a source. I always get "can't fine Package """. SO u always try to find the error in google but you can't. Readme doesn't say much lol

Most of the time, just use the package manager, installing from source is a last call. In the case you do have to compile, you need to find the list of dependencies on the site and install them all first (preferably via the package manager) and you won't get those errors.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unknownm* 
D) Using / Configuring X-Server

Just use the 'nvidia-settings' tool. It comes with the nvidia driver and is the best tool for the job, if on an nvidia card. If not, then the auto configuration should work fine.


----------



## alk

How do I make Linux start up as fast as my current OS? I don't want to be waiting for 5 minutes whilst kernel jargon rolls past. Any ideas?


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blue_Fire* 
You sir i would call a straight up liar, and i hope your not talking about your sig rig. Cause the soundblast audigy and x-fi are two very different things. Ubuntu 7.10 AND 8.04 LTS does not have stock support for the X-Fi series cards (xtreme gamer, pro, plat, elite,etc.) you need oss, or the creative ALSA driver equivelent. I have reinstalled about three times to try and get my sound card working.

just installed 8.04 and it works with that too.

so the x-fi and the audiology are different huh? well, my bad.


----------



## The Duke

Quote:



Originally Posted by *tweakboy*


Recently 1500 tech testers PC Magazine tested all OSes , They said the fastest, most secure and stable OS is XP , Then its Vista , then MAC OSX then Linux,

Plus, linux what you gonna use it for ? No apps No games,, LOL

















The first 64 bit game was created in Linux, Americas Army based on the UT engine on a AMD true 32/64 bitt CPU. UT and a few other high end games are coded in Linux too. Sure they need more but as usual, people buy/use whats popular but not the best! 
Apps, even a Linux n00b like me knows there are more then you'll ever use.
A greater proportion of the internet isn't MS softs either... Unix/Linux dominates! 
Further more, many large companies use Linux for the back bone and give the workers the "popular" MS Windows for the work stations and save millions of dollars and have a more stable system.

IMHO, I think that list of stable OS was read in a mirror backwards!


----------



## Boyboyd

plus its a lot easier to get Linux to look like you want it to, with relatively little experience

http://image.bayimg.com/gajemaabi.jpg

i especially like the new 8.04 ubuntu.


----------



## Chipp

Quote:



Originally Posted by *alk*


How do I make Linux start up as fast as my current OS? I don't want to be waiting for 5 minutes whilst kernel jargon rolls past. Any ideas?


Take a peek at what seems to be taking longest and then post back here.

Something really simple we can all benefit from is adding the "noatime" option to your ext3 or reiserfs partitions in /etc/fstab. This prevents the kernel from reading and writing access times to all of your files, and thus speeds up HDD access quite a bit.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alk* 
How do I make Linux start up as fast as my current OS? I don't want to be waiting for 5 minutes whilst kernel jargon rolls past. Any ideas?

You should install http://www.bootchart.org/


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
A valid question has been raised regarding "Why should I try Linux (or any other alternative opsys, requiring some level of learning curve when I'm happy with Windows?" There are actually many reasonable answers such as "one can learn to get absolute control over one's computing environment, impossible in windows" but the most compelling answer has to do with the future both of computing and probably the very future of mankind. I don't want to digress here and now by getting deeply into that last part apart from suggesting that man's endeavors of virtually ALL sorts will increasingly depend on computers and that shapes our world to a tremendous and fundamental degree. It's not likely that computing is going to go the way of tape recording. It's far too fundamentally important and capable of evolving through all manner of techno development. Just because we may be using quantum based computers in 10-20 years doesn't negate the "computer" part.

Have you noticed how relatively inexpensive truly awesome Intel CPUs are nowadays? That fact is because AMD managed to convince enough people to try them out that they managed to survive and finally flourish against the 90% market share giant of Intel. Had AMD not hired the DEC Alpha boys (who created the Guinness Book of World Record holder back in 1995 or so for the Dec Alpha Processor which ran at 500MHz w/o a fan when Intel's best efforts couldn't exceed 200MHz) who helped AMD develop the Super 7 platform and Slot A, which was when Intel tried to kill off all competition by creating the Slot 1 platform, but most notably create the Athlon/Duron family of processors culminating in the first usable 64-bit processors, which software has yet to fully utilize but is getting there, just considerably slower than the adoption of 32-bit computing over 16-bit computing. AMD succeeded in a quantum leap of processing power which scared the beejesus out of Intel causing them to fire hundreds if not thousands of employees and to gear up bigtime to reclaim the crown they'd lost for a few years. It is possible to track CPU value per dollar levels over the years and see that it exactly parallels effective competition.

Also, aside from price, it is important to see that and how monopolistic power not only creates price gouging but also complacency and laziness. Necessity IS the mother of invention after all. When the Pentium IV first came out besides being abnormally hot due to wasteful processes designed by Intel to maximize mere clock speed at the expense of just how many instruction per clock were possible (Yes, Marie, it is possible for a 2.6GHz processor to actually be faster in operation than a 3GHz processor) in order to dupe non techie buyers into buying Intel - lazy. Intel had fought an uphill battle for the better part of a decade trying to get 64 bit working. AMD succeeded to such an extent that it was cheaper and ultimately smarter for Intel to swallow their pride (and hope non techie's wouldn't notice or understand) and simply adopt AMD's protocols. It is perhaps most important to recognize that although an Herculean effort and laudable success, AMD had it easy because adopting their product asked nothing of the end user. Many non techie users didn't then and don't now know what brand of CPU they have because they are all playing Intel's original game which is X86. It is Apple that took the more difficult route by using RISC processors (quite different from X86 in how code is written for them and what they can do) and dumping many legacy basics such as how much memory can be addressed by the CPU, certain bit limits and other restrictive boundaries. Microsoft chose to bet that people would be unwilling to part with old software just to get a better computing environment and that it would be easier to sell this idea than expect average users (especially back then in the dawn of the computer age) to even begin to understand why what Apple was attempting (and succeeding at, btw) was actually a huge quantum leap forward that would affect Computing (capital "C") for well over a decade and that the ripples would be actually felt for all time, sort of like the way child abuse affects the child for his whole life.

Now stay with me here because I swear I am truly not off topic here rambling on about Intel vs AMD or Microsoft vs. Apple. Because of what can easily be seen as pandering to the lowest common denominator (as well as a concerted campaign of FUD) Microsoft has enjoyed near monopolistic status for many years now and has in fact already squelched a number of substantially better alternatives. I don't mean that statement in any way to in "one swell foop" castigate Microsoft with the "broad brush" because Microsoft has admittedly created some truly admirable code on it's own and could not likely have persevered and flourished for so many years if it was all just brute, evil power and actually had no redeeming value of it's own. Even the Mafia might cease to exist if it did not provide services and simply acted as a sinkhole which is why the Mafia increasingly entered into legitimate business instead of just relying on gambling, contraband, and prostitution.

The ultimate point here that I am trying to make is that as consumers it is in our best interest to support competition and the whole system of checks and balances. Monarchies and monopolies always end up, if they last long enough, taking more than they give. I accept this in both directions in that I must admit that as great a concept is Open Source and even given all it's growing number of successes, it is worthy of note that breakthrough products like the IPod and the IPhone came from the most proprietary closed shop possibly in the world. So the case can be made that we need both extremes, closed and open. In this case, the case for trying Linux, it asks more of users than AMD did in it's CPU efforts, so the job is harder both for the Linux community and for end users. Even though it is possible now for non techie people to install and get some usage out of Linux, if you really want to get at its' deepest values you have to be willing to take some time to learn it's way of doing things. If it were just exactly like Windows then there truly would be no good reason to try it out. Some of you may have read my earlier post pointing out that a stick shift car ceases to have it's inherent advantages once you make it more user friendly by making it shift automatically. Then it simply becomes an Automatic. If you simply want ease of use and are willing to compromise on gas mileage, price, and depth of user control then just buy an automatic but also realize that if enough people did that, soon stick shifts would cease to exist, like vinyl disks and turntables and perhaps finally all analog devices of any kind furthering the distance between consumer and product much as guilds did in medieval times, especially during The Dark Ages.

It may be a pita for us spoiled Americans (and many other so-called "1st world societies" as well) to be asked to take some responsibility for the future we are helping to create, but it is true whether we recognize it or not. You just have to ask yourself "Do I want to be an Ostrich or an Eagle?" This question exists in politics, business, religion, science, philosophy, society and yes, in operating systems, too.
Jimmy


----------



## arkheii

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolf_08* 
I tried Ubuntu but what ticked me off was the commands to install programs. It's like linux is living in the dos ages with all these commands.

There is some value to it, like when you want to install software remotely and you don't have the bandwidth for a remote desktop or VNC session. You could telnet or ssh to your computer and simply type the appropriate commands to install software. Did you know you can also install Windows setup programs via command-line as well as use the GUI? Though I'll admit that not many people will have a use for it.


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *tweakboy*


Recently 1500 tech testers PC Magazine tested all OSes , They said the fastest, most secure and stable OS is XP , Then its Vista , then MAC OSX then Linux,

Plus, linux what you gonna use it for ? No apps No games,, LOL

















That is a crock of steaming.

No apps? Lol you have never tried linux; obviously.

And as for the linux being the least secure OS, I would suggest that those *cough* "tech testers" *cough* had not set up their systems even to kindergarten standards.

Right out of the box, linux can be more secure than an XP box.
Period.


----------



## aweir

since installing Vista, I have NEVER had a crash. Most crashes are the result of crappy drivers and bad hardware rather than flaws in the OS.

I've gone through hell trying to install an ATI graphics driver and STILL not have proper 3D functionality.

I've gone through hell trying to install a Winmodem, winprinter

Windows has never given me as many problems as Linux has. No user should ever have to go through that much hassle to get a piece of hardware to work when it is "plug and play".

I have used RedHat, Mandrake, Mandriva, SuSE, Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Freespire and theve all given me nothing but problems in the long run.


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *aweir*


since installing Vista, I have NEVER had a crash. Most crashes are the result of crappy drivers and bad hardware rather than flaws in the OS.

I've gone through hell trying to install a Winmodem


*Winmodems are NOT modems. *







Why would a distro support something as BS as a winmodem?

I do however agree that there can be sometimes issues with GFX drivers (particularly with newer cards... my linux has (as yet) no support for my GFX card)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *aweir*


I have used RedHat, Mandrake, Mandriva, SuSE, Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Freespire and theve all given me nothing but problems in the long run.


People often forget that they were not born knowing how to use windows... Everything has a learning curve, and these days (given the right distro) that learning curve is becoming ever-less-steep.

BTW... I also am enjoying Vista


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *alk*


How do I make Linux start up as fast as my current OS? I don't want to be waiting for 5 minutes whilst kernel jargon rolls past. Any ideas?


Ubuntu 8.04 seems to start up almost as fast as XP...

I don't see what the big deal with boot times is, though. It's no more than 10 seconds more than XP. And consider the fact that you can run Linux 24/7 without needing to reboot, and the fact that you don't have to reboot for updates - you don't spend much time booting anyway, so I don't worry about it.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *newphase*


That is a crock of steaming.

No apps? Lol you have never tried linux; obviously.

And as for the linux being the least secure OS, I would suggest that those *cough* "tech testers" *cough* had not set up their systems even to kindergarten standards.

Right out of the box, linux can be more secure than an XP box.
Period.


Just ignore him. He's trolling. If I were a mod, he would be dealt with...

Quote:



Originally Posted by *aweir*


Windows has never given me as many problems as Linux has. No user should ever have to go through that much hassle to get a piece of hardware to work when it is "plug and play".


This thread is meant to present a challenge, and the readers are *supposed* to either accept it or don't post. This thread is not meant for windows justifications; they were all covered in the first post anyway.


----------



## Blue_Fire

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aweir* 
since installing Vista, I have NEVER had a crash. Most crashes are the result of crappy drivers and bad hardware rather than flaws in the OS.

I've gone through hell trying to install an ATI graphics driver and STILL not have proper 3D functionality.

I've gone through hell trying to install a Winmodem, winprinter

Windows has never given me as many problems as Linux has. No user should ever have to go through that much hassle to get a piece of hardware to work when it is "plug and play".

I have used RedHat, Mandrake, Mandriva, SuSE, Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Freespire and theve all given me nothing but problems in the long run.

Agreed and disagreed. As my main issue is sound, i also have no drivers for my keyboard/mouse. gfx cards a still a little on the edge of perfect functionality, and only generic drivers are available for chipsets.

However it seems my issue is being kinda specific to me (sound only) and my keyboard and mouse still work perfectly cuase i already programmed all of the hotkey in windows and they conveniently carried over. Graphics has been a very fast moving field and im assured that by next release or two they will be caught up. And the generic chipset drivers for linux work better then anything windows has to offer anyways.


----------



## Blue_Fire

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Ubuntu 8.04 seems to start up almost as fast as XP...

I don't see what the big deal with boot times is, though. It's no more than 10 seconds more than XP. And consider the fact that you can run Linux 24/7 without needing to reboot, and the fact that you don't have to reboot for updates - you don't spend much time booting anyway, so I don't worry about it.

unless you update something serious. and that is if you can afford to leave your pc on all the time.


----------



## xthedrumzx

makes me want to get linux!

great information! +rep


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blue_Fire* 
unless you update something serious. and that is if you can afford to leave your pc on all the time.

True. You will have to reboot for kernel updates.

But if you're like me, you turn the computer on once and leave it on for the rest of the day. So you only have to deal with booting once a day.


----------



## aweir

Call me a hypocrite; I'm downloading Kububtu 8.04 as I type this. I need a live cd to test out my new rig.

Abit IP35Pro
Q6600
4Gb DDR2 1000
MSI 8800GT
500Gb 16Mb SATA


----------



## Unknownm

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Chipp*


A) This one is not a huge problem with most hardware - what is it you were having problems with before?

B)It's all done for you by your distrobution's upgrade manager.







Of course, if you want to customize your own kernel it gets a little more difficult but it still easy enough as long as you know your hardware. Besides - if your current kernel is working, why upgrade? I only change kernels every major release just to save the hassle of rebuilding all my drivers and such.

C) This can be an issue, I know.







Generally you just have to run through the list of dependencies in the readme and make sure all of them are installed (sometimes you have to hunt down a specific version). Plugging the error into google might not help you out, but plugging in the name of the missing dependency almost certainly will.

D) Most major distributions are configured out of the box with a running X server, but even if you screw something up manually you have plenty of utilities available to you that will rebuild a generic xorg.conf (such as xorg -config, nvidia-xconfig, etc).


A) none but later down the road if I do.

B) Well I remember in ps3 with 2.0 breaking wifi that you have to update something into the kernel to get it working. I was like huh?

C) Yes it's a very bad issue to, Gah!!

D) Well I want to learn how to configure it. Is it easy?


----------



## KloroFormd

If you screw up an xserver config in Ubuntu 7.10 or later, restart your computer without touching the keyboard or mouse after the error occurs and HD activity stops. It'll trigger "bulletproof X" to take effect and allow you to fix it in a GUI.


----------



## Iceman0803

Well I'm dual booting Ubuntu (8.04) and Vista Ultimate again (for the third time) and I like it (Ubuntu). I gave up the first 2 times because I couldn't get sound working. Again this time I installed Ubuntu and I was trying to get creative's beta drivers to work but couldn't. I was about ready to call it quits again as I still had no luck with creative. Then, for whatever reason, I decided to try OSS drivers and HOLY LORD they worked!! I now have sound! I have to say that if I didn't game I would probably use Linux exclusively!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Unknownm*


A) none but later down the road if I do.

B) Well I remember in ps3 with 2.0 breaking wifi that you have to update something into the kernel to get it working. I was like huh?

C) Yes it's a very bad issue to, Gah!!

D) Well I want to learn how to configure it. Is it easy?


I answered C (see above), and it's not an issue, it's user error.

as to hardware problems, just check to see if it is compatible before buying. It's one google search.

As to configuring X, nvidia-settings is the best app, if you have an nvidia card, if not, doing it by hand isn't hard, it's all in xorg.conf, just look up on how it works.

As to anyone saying about boot times, time the time it takes from pressing the option in GRUB to the time you can be doing something. Windows gets to the desktop faster, but I always find it is impossible to do anything for a number of minutes after you are on the desktop.

It's great to hear about the people who have tried Linux though, keep trying it, remember, every six months another version of Ubuntu is released - it's worth a look. Of course, I'm hoping you will all be running it as your primary OS.


----------



## Darkice

I ordered the lastest ubun... I have the grace of owing many many computers 7 in my room to not counting the new gaming computer I building so soon to be 8 so I suppose i will install it on one of my spare computers to bad they don't have true gaming support or really and real graphics card support...


----------



## HauntSheep

You mentioned John smith, i must post these...

  
 YouTube - Peter Kay John Smiths ad - Top Bombing  



 
^^


----------



## hangemhi

will Linux, say Ubuntu 8.04 work with any dell?


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *hangemhi*


will Linux, say Ubuntu 8.04 work with any dell?


Linux works with almost any comuter. PC, Mac, and beyond. (There are a number of obscure platforms supported).


----------



## hangemhi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Linux works with almost any comuter. PC, Mac, and beyond. (There are a number of obscure platforms supported).


ok, once i load it and stuff what are some helpful or startup programs i need/use? I will be using Ubuntu for ocing, and internet . (maybe you could start a list of helpful programs. my







)


----------



## teK0wnzU

One prog I have found to be good is Ksensors, a system temp progy.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *teK0wnzU*


One prog I have found to be good is Ksensors, a system temp progy.


Try conky or Gkrellm


----------



## lattyware

I'm a big fan of lm_sensors with sensors_applet - it's a gnome toolbar applet.

Wonders of open source, a huge range of options out there







. Anywho, as to must have apps, It depends, but I'm a big fan of Deluge for Torrents, xChat for IRC, mplayer for video, and 'alltray' is very useful. Remember, feel free to look them up online, but when you install them, use the package manager, don't try to download from the site and compile, trust me, it's easier.


----------



## blazin-asian

i have been using Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Herron for the past few days at work and it is great! started using it to learn about LAMP server and after installing Compiz plugins, it is so freakin sweet.

going to be installing it on my main box at home soon and using GRUB as my bootloader. i hope GRUB plays nice with Hackintosh and Vista once i get it installed


----------



## teK0wnzU

If GRUB gives you any crap Use Super GRUB. It works great with Ubuntu and XP64.


----------



## blazin-asian

thanks, i'll look it up. lookin forward to triple booting Ubuntu, Vista x64, and hackintosh really soon.

oh yea, i tried to install Ubuntu last night, but it kept giving me errors as i booted from the livecd. i know the cd works cuz i used it at work. tried both 32 and 64 bit versions too. hmm......

does it not like my hardware?


----------



## lattyware

What is the error? I can probably help if you give it to me.

The Super Grub CD is great for fixing Grub installs that have died (missing partitions, and such).

And GRUB is the best bootloader out there.


----------



## Iceman0803

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


What is the error? I can probably help if you give it to me.

The Super Grub CD is great for fixing Grub installs that have died (missing partitions, and such).

And GRUB is the best bootloader out there.


Quick question: Can GRUB be used in a dual boot scenario even if neither OS is Linux?


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Iceman0803*


Quick question: Can GRUB be used in a dual boot scenario even if neither OS is Linux?


Yes, but I've had times where GRUB knocked out other distros from the boot list lol

I mean, we scold windows for thinking it's the only OS in the world, knocking any other OS off of its MBR. Linux does the same thing with other distros, though. At least in my experience; they had to be manually added.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
Yes, but I've had times where GRUB knocked out other distros from the boot list lol

I mean, we scold windows for thinking it's the only OS in the world, knocking any other OS off of its MBR. Linux does the same thing with other distros, though. At least in my experience; they had to be manually added.

It's hard to auto-configure it, at least it's possible to add them. That is the point.


----------



## arkheii

I converted my laptop into a Gentoo torrent box, and it's great. Everything is optimized for it and the minimalistic Gentoo installation's hdd footprint is smaller than Server 2003. I learned some Unix commands and system related stuff along the way as well.

So the server build was done, all that was left was this desktop. I decided to try Xubuntu because unlike the server, this build would be more focused on using applications like Opera and NetBeans. All was going well until I tried to get 3D acceleration working, and found out first hand that nVidia driver support for the 9600GT is crap. I really need that 3D acceleration because our thesis makes use of Ogre3D.

Xubuntu is great as an out of the box Linux distro. The installation was too easy -- it didn't even bother asking what I don't want it to install, and 95% of the time I was just looking at a progress bar with no idea what it was putting in my system. Every time I had to do some gritty work it feels like it refuses to cooperate with me (unlike Gentoo). When I configure networking to use a static IP, it clears it out on the next reboot and creates a new one (it's now at eth8... lolwut). When I wanted to close X and use the terminal to install the nVidia drivers, using ctrl+alt+backspace shuts down the machine instead of simply closing X and taking me to the terminal. I had to chmod -x gdm just to make the bugger startup with just the terminal. I also didn't appreciate apt-get as much as I loved Portage (equery and USE flags are awesome).

I'm sure it would take me weeks to setup a Gentoo system with all the functionality that Xubuntu came with out of the box, but for this desktop I'm ditching the Xubuntu partition and sticking to XP until the bums at nVidia prepare stable, high performance drivers for my video card. And when that happens, it's Gentoo for me


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arkheii* 
I converted my laptop into a Gentoo torrent box, and it's great. Everything is optimized for it and the minimalistic Gentoo installation's hdd footprint is smaller than Server 2003. I learned some Unix commands and system related stuff along the way as well.

So the server build was done, all that was left was this desktop. I decided to try Xubuntu because unlike the server, this build would be more focused on using applications like Opera and NetBeans. All was going well until I tried to get 3D acceleration working, and found out first hand that nVidia driver support for the 9600GT is crap. I really need that 3D acceleration because our thesis makes use of Ogre3D.

Xubuntu is great as an out of the box Linux distro. The installation was too easy -- it didn't even bother asking what I don't want it to install, and 95% of the time I was just looking at a progress bar with no idea what it was putting in my system. Every time I had to do some gritty work it feels like it refuses to cooperate with me (unlike Gentoo). When I configure networking to use a static IP, it clears it out on the next reboot and creates a new one (it's now at eth8... lolwut). When I wanted to close X and use the terminal to install the nVidia drivers, using ctrl+alt+backspace shuts down the machine instead of simply closing X and taking me to the terminal. I had to chmod -x gdm just to make the bugger startup with just the terminal. I also didn't appreciate apt-get as much as I loved Portage (equery and USE flags are awesome).

I'm sure it would take me weeks to setup a Gentoo system with all the functionality that Xubuntu came with out of the box, but for this desktop I'm ditching the Xubuntu partition and sticking to XP until the bums at nVidia prepare stable, high performance drivers for my video card. And when that happens, it's Gentoo for me









Hmm... Maybe try Arch for the desktop system. It's easier to use than Gentoo, but has a lot of power behind it. I'm gonna be using Arch when KDE4.1 comes out (KDE will be beating Gnome at that point, by my reckoning.)

Shame the 9600 has bad support. nVidia drivers tend to be pretty good actually. The nvidia-settings tool is very good. I remember it took them a while to get the 8600's support sorted.

As to most of your problems, they sound odd. I for one use a static IP fine. I guess it must be a Xubuntu issue rather than and Ubuntu one. Sounds very annoying.


----------



## arkheii

I've installed a basic Arch setup where Xubuntu used to be. The installation process was well guided and very customizable. I think I'm gonna love Arch, but I'll still be waiting for the 9600GT nVidia drivers before I take it seriously. And KDE as well so I don't have to download it all over again









How long did it take for 8 series cards to be fully supported? I've tried beta drivers that "supposedly" add support for my 9600 but Xubuntu's video driver recovery kicks in when I apply the nvidia driver to my xorg.conf.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *arkheii*


I've installed a basic Arch setup where Xubuntu used to be. The installation process was well guided and very customizable. I think I'm gonna love Arch, but I'll still be waiting for the 9600GT nVidia drivers before I take it seriously. And KDE as well so I don't have to download it all over again









How long did it take for 8 series cards to be fully supported? I've tried beta drivers that "supposedly" add support for my 9600 but Xubuntu's video driver recovery kicks in when I apply the nvidia driver to my xorg.conf.


Not oh so long.
I can't remember exactly.


----------



## Boyboyd

im liking Ubuntu more and more now, especially since i managed to get my head round xserver.

its more widespread than i thought, went into college the other day and this guy in my form was putting 8.04 on his laptop.


----------



## thiussat

The main reason I use Linux is for security. Linux wins the security battle hands down for a number of reasons. No viruses, no spyware, nothing. There is not a SINGLE known *nix virus in the wild right now. Viruses just don't work very well on Linux due to it's user control system.

There is only one thing Linux can't do that I need to do (and it's not the fault of Linux):

1) I subscribe to Netflix and I watch their online movies. These movies must use WMP 11 and IE, so both Mac and Linux cannot be used to view them. This is a crock, but it's what we have.

Unless you use something like CAD or play games 24/7, there is nothing Linux can't do and do it better than Windows. And the lack of Netflix support, CAD, photoshop and gaming is NOT the fault of Linux -- it is the fault of the proprietary software makers who refuse to code for any platform other than Winblows. However, in almost all these cases, Linux has very capable open-source equivalents.

I am not an Ubuntu user, but the more this distro catches on, hopefully the proprietary closed source companies will begin porting more of their software over to Linux.


----------



## thiussat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brian_GP1200R* 
On the security front the only advantage that Mac, Linux, and the other Unix flavors have is that they aren't nearly as popular. Windows has greater than 90% of the market share, Apple somewhere around 5 - 7%... why would anyone looking to write viruses / malware / exploits want to shoot for the 5% of the market share when they can code for 90%?

Wrong. I knew I would hear someone use this old and misguided argument in an attempt to explain M$'s security weakness. The truth is, the market share has *nothing* to do with the security gaps between MS and *nix. Hackers have tried and tried hard to spread viruses on *nix and they have not been successful, mainly because of the way *nix is designed with tight user access controls. When Windows was created back in the early 90's, security was not at the top of the list. On the other hand, security has been one of the top priorities for *nix since the 1970's.

For a good explanation of why the "lack of market share" argument doesn't work, see this site: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus

Quote:

Quote:

_Thus, even a Linux user who deliberately wants to activate a Linux virus (trojan horse, worm, or other program designed to do mischief) *will have extreme difficulty getting it to circulate.* If you're a programmer, try and see. Viruses aren't difficult to write on Linux: Write one, run it (as a non-root user), and watch it bollix your files. But nobody else's._
Now does this mean *nix is impenetrable? Of course not. But it does mean that the average desktop user will have virtually nothing to worry about in regard to security and will not have to buy expensive AV software and keep it updated. In fact, you could run Linux without a firewall and likely have zero security issues to worry about. There is no need for AV on *nix unless you are running a server where Windows boxes connect.

Quote:

Like I said, I love Linux / Unix... but only for servers and with no GUI. I don't like having a million different GUI options, and I really don't want a hastle to troubleshoot something just because I decided that I wanted watch a .mov format instead of a .avi.
What different GUI options are you talking about? You have two major desktops: Gnome and KDE. Then you have compiz-fusion if you want a 3D desktop environment on top of whatever desktop you choose to run. Compiz-fusion runs on Gnome and KDE (or any others).

As for .avis and mpegs and .movs, those formats are all playable with a single player like Kaffeine or Mplayer. I've never seen a Linux player that doesn't play all of the major video formats.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thiussat*


Unless you use something like CAD or play games 24/7, there is nothing Linux can't do and do it better than Windows. And the lack of Netflix support, CAD, photoshop and gaming is NOT the fault of Linux -- it is the fault of the proprietary software makers who refuse to code for any platform other than Winblows. However, in almost all these cases, Linux has very capable open-source equivalents.


While I agree with that, there are people who can't make that excuse for Linux. Sure, it's not Linux's fault, but the fact of the matter is that it can't run their software.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thiussat*


For a good explanation of why the "lack of market share" argument doesn't work, see this site: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus


Hmm... Should I expect a website called "Linux Mafia" to provide me fair and relatively unbiased information...?


----------



## lattyware

People who say market share is the reason for Linux security are fools.

Think about it. A very high percentage of servers run Linux. Servers are much bigger targets.


----------



## Black Magix

I did Latty's Linux Challenge and I now *hate Linux*!









X-Fi card refused to work
Games ran at 10fps regardless of if I was using Cedega or WINE
Hard Drives started crashing upon loading.
Resolution refused to stick

My thoughts - Linux is great...if you can get it to load the first time around. I put linux on my laptop and everything runs fine. I put linux on my desktop and it took me a week of setting up to even get basic functionality like file management. Linux is not for the basic point and click user. It's for someone who knows their way around an operating system and can diagnose problems when they occur. I could never sort my problems out no matter how much I devled into knowledge about linux and turned to the Ubuntu communuity for help. There simply was no support for my particular issues and thus made the system unusable. This has been across 3 ubuntu distros and I don't see it changing anytime soon.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


People who say market share is the reason for Linux security are fools.

Think about it. A very high percentage of servers run Linux. Servers are much bigger targets.


Bingo. If one wanted to see things go "boom," he would attack Lockheed's multi-terabyte systems running Red Hat.

The market share think is an excuse.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Black Magix*


I did Latty's Linux Challenge and I now *hate Linux*!









X-Fi card refused to work
Games ran at 10fps regardless of if I was using Cedega or WINE
Hard Drives started crashing upon loading.
Resolution refused to stick

My thoughts - Linux is great...if you can get it to load the first time around. I put linux on my laptop and everything runs fine. I put linux on my desktop and it took me a week of setting up to even get basic functionality like file management. Linux is not for the basic point and click user. It's for someone who knows their way around an operating system and can diagnose problems when they occur. I could never sort my problems out no matter how much I devled into knowledge about linux and turned to the Ubuntu communuity for help. There simply was no support for my particular issues and thus made the system unusable. This has been across 3 ubuntu distros and I don't see it changing anytime soon.


'Hard drives crashing?' what exactly do you mean?

As to your resolution and WINE problems, well, for one, it depends on the game, WINE is not, and can not be, perfect, but beyond that, did you install the nvidia drivers? If not, you can do so via the restricted driver manager. Once that is done, use nvidia-settings to configure your resolution, and hit save to xorg.conf. It'll work fine after that. X-Fis apparently can work, but They don't have official support, so you can't expect too much.


----------



## Iceman0803

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Black Magix*


I did Latty's Linux Challenge and I now *hate Linux*!









X-Fi card refused to work
Games ran at 10fps regardless of if I was using Cedega or WINE
Hard Drives started crashing upon loading.
Resolution refused to stick

My thoughts - Linux is great...if you can get it to load the first time around. I put linux on my laptop and everything runs fine. I put linux on my desktop and it took me a week of setting up to even get basic functionality like file management. Linux is not for the basic point and click user. It's for someone who knows their way around an operating system and can diagnose problems when they occur. I could never sort my problems out no matter how much I devled into knowledge about linux and turned to the Ubuntu communuity for help. There simply was no support for my particular issues and thus made the system unusable. This has been across 3 ubuntu distros and I don't see it changing anytime soon.


I used this method to get sound working on my xtreme gamer (running 8.04)


----------



## karan.t

where do i get linux from?

and which one is best for me, as i have never used anything other than windows started with 3.1 upto xp

and love xp, wont thing of getting vista.

i need a linux which is simple and uncomplicated.

the first thing that comes into my mind when i think of linux is a softwear which requires u to do everything unlike xp, something for pro software people

thanx


----------



## Boyboyd

i don't claim to be an expert but i dual boot with ubuntu which is fairly easy to use.

Just master the synaptic package manager for adding + removing programs.

it can be downloaded Here


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *karan.t*


where do i get linux from?

and which one is best for me, as i have never used anything other than windows started with 3.1 upto xp

and love xp, wont thing of getting vista.

i need a linux which is simple and uncomplicated.

the first thing that comes into my mind when i think of linux is a softwear which requires u to do everything unlike xp, something for pro software people

thanx


Check this site out:

http://www.linux.com/

There are millions of Linux "distros" out there. They are basically "versions" of Linux (not in the sense of m$'s "home basic," "home premium," "home business," etc.) Essentially they are all the "Linux" kernel with their own setup of pre-installed apps and such.

Ubuntu Linux and Linux Mint are among the easiest.

Next, through personal experience, I would say Suse. Others have said PC Linux OS, though.

I'd say start with Ubuntu. Don't be afraid of it; just remember that it isn't windows. If you expect it to be windows, you'll have a hard time and you won't like it.


----------



## bowman

Quote:



Here is my challenge: Install Linux, set it up how you like it, and run it for a week or so â€" and I'm talking really run it (this is the important bit) â€" do not boot Windows unless you really have to (so for games, or whatever). If you find that OK, continue running it for up to a month â€" then go back and try out running Windows again. Which do you prefer? I guarantee you will prefer Linux. The big problem is the first step, once you are running Linux, Windows is an unattractive offer.


If only.

I've tried three distros on my laptop now, only one worked. Arch worked fine, because I got to set it up myself. Getting this to work on the sig rig through a USB drive was easy peasy, with xorg and xfce up and running, it was all sublime. However, I decided I couldn't be bothered picking everything myself because I just wanted a functional laptop quickly. I then decided to download a few 'simpler' more 'streamlined' distributions - in this case Debian and openSUSE.

Both of them have the same issue. They will not boot. After initial booting they will go into what seems like 'sleep mode' but isn't, it's just hung. Turning the laptop off lets me see that its in bootup phase just long enough before it shuts off again. I had this same problem in Arch with ATI's drivers, I tried unofficial drivers and it worked.

openSUSE boots in 'failsafe mode', but won't let me log in as regular user, it just returns me to the login screen again. It lets me log in as root (which is undesirable obviously) but then rebooting it will just hang it again.

On top of it all booting from cd no longer works, it just brings me back to the god damn grub screen again where i get to choose from openSUSE that doesn't work and openSUSE that almost kinda works in a way.





































To put it simply, I took your linux challenge and I'll just say that maybe I'll bother once I have a spare pc to play with. I need my laptop to actually work, and now the god damn thing won't even let me boot from the xp restore disc.





















I realise ATI's drivers for linux are utterly completely useless, but why oh why would these distros decide to use them then? I mean, they're so dumbed down they won't even tell me which drivers they are installing but seeing as I am experiencing the same problem I can only assume it's the same as the first time I tried it.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bowman* 
I need my laptop to actually work, and now the god damn thing won't even let me boot from the xp restore disc.

I actually have the same problem on my sister's laptop. I don't see how it's Linux's fault, though, that the stupid computer won't boot from the damn disk. I always figured it was because of the low quality, POS laptop.


----------



## bowman

Well, this is an Asus, and I've always thought Asus stood for at least things that worked somewhat..

Oh well, I installed Ubuntu of all things and it worked just like that. I guess it'll do for now.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bowman* 
If only.

I've tried three distros on my laptop now, only one worked. Arch worked fine, because I got to set it up myself. Getting this to work on the sig rig through a USB drive was easy peasy, with xorg and xfce up and running, it was all sublime. However, I decided I couldn't be bothered picking everything myself because I just wanted a functional laptop quickly. I then decided to download a few 'simpler' more 'streamlined' distributions - in this case Debian and openSUSE.

Both of them have the same issue. They will not boot. After initial booting they will go into what seems like 'sleep mode' but isn't, it's just hung. Turning the laptop off lets me see that its in bootup phase just long enough before it shuts off again. I had this same problem in Arch with ATI's drivers, I tried unofficial drivers and it worked.

openSUSE boots in 'failsafe mode', but won't let me log in as regular user, it just returns me to the login screen again. It lets me log in as root (which is undesirable obviously) but then rebooting it will just hang it again.

On top of it all booting from cd no longer works, it just brings me back to the god damn grub screen again where i get to choose from openSUSE that doesn't work and openSUSE that almost kinda works in a way.





































To put it simply, I took your linux challenge and I'll just say that maybe I'll bother once I have a spare pc to play with. I need my laptop to actually work, and now the god damn thing won't even let me boot from the xp restore disc.





















I realise ATI's drivers for linux are utterly completely useless, but why oh why would these distros decide to use them then? I mean, they're so dumbed down they won't even tell me which drivers they are installing but seeing as I am experiencing the same problem I can only assume it's the same as the first time I tried it.

Well, the XP restore disk has nothing to do with Linux, that's a separate issue. And the ATI drivers re not great, but I have heard of people getting them to work pretty well.


----------



## bowman

Anyways, I'm now using Ubuntu like a noob, and it works just like that.

I'm wondering though, is it okay to paste my Firefox files right over to Linux from Vista, if I want my NoScript/Flashblock/Adblock filters and my bookmarks on the laptop too? It looks like it uses the same files in Linux too, just have to be sure.


----------



## lattyware

It should work, a few extensions are OS dependent, but most should work perfectly


----------



## Boyboyd

i run ubuntu on my laptop, even since it was new. I don't think i have ever booted into windows with it. Just booted with the live disc to make sure my wireless card was compatible, which it is.

Then i went straight to ubuntu with an OS X theme, (to make me look like student, lol.

I am now in the process of adding a new 250gb hard disk to my sig rig so i can boot into Arch Linux aswell as ubuntu and vista. I love linux, and want to try new distros now. I'm keeping good ol' ubuntu there just in case though. I really consider it a replacement for windows (for me) now. But i keep vista installed on my sig rig just for gaming.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boydyboyd* 
i run ubuntu on my laptop, even since it was new. I don't think i have ever booted into windows with it. Just booted with the live disc to make sure my wireless card was compatible, which it is.

Then i went straight to ubuntu with an OS X theme, (to make me look like student, lol.

I am now in the process of adding a new 250gb hard disk to my sig rig so i can boot into Arch Linux aswell as ubuntu and vista. I love linux, and want to try new distros now. I'm keeping good ol' ubuntu there just in case though. I really consider it a replacement for windows (for me) now. But i keep vista installed on my sig rig just for gaming.

I'm in the process of uploading OCNix64 (based on Arch) if you want to try Arch without having to install.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
I'm in the process of uploading OCNix64 (based on Arch) if you want to try Arch without having to install.

I will, just to see what it's like. I think i will install arch anyway, force myself to learn it's ways. Someone said it's like being thrown in at the deep end









Still, i have the Arch for beginners guide that you lnked me and im in the process of re-assembling my sig rig now. I kept taking things out to make space for my new hard drive and kep going, im obsessed with cable management, i kept taking more and more out to get it right. Now im lef with a mobo and a cpu in, thats it.

Still, im optimistic that i can put it back together and put arch on it before i go to bed.


----------



## newphase

Hooray! Drivers are out for the 9xxx series nvidia!

Back to sabayon for everything except gaming, lol.


----------



## Systemic_Anomaly

the responses to this thread are absolutely rediculous....

of course Linux can run all Windows games (except DX10 ONLY games which can't be run on XP anyway)

its called WinE...hello...

I run slackware on my gaming rig and I can run many DX 9 games very decently...


----------



## Blue_Fire

Not really true, try running hellgatelondon or AoC


----------



## lattyware

All is wrong. Wine works in some cases, but often costs performance, and a lot of games have bugs.


----------



## Black Magix

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


'Hard drives crashing?' what exactly do you mean?

As to your resolution and WINE problems, well, for one, it depends on the game, WINE is not, and can not be, perfect, but beyond that, did you install the nvidia drivers? If not, you can do so via the restricted driver manager. Once that is done, use nvidia-settings to configure your resolution, and hit save to xorg.conf. It'll work fine after that. X-Fis apparently can work, but They don't have official support, so you can't expect too much.


X-Fi's (my particular chipset since there's more then one) Can not work with anything but OCC. I had nvidia drivers installed and regardless of which game I tried to play (even sim tower) the game always ran slow. In regards to the hard drive crashing - I would be using a hard drive and it would just vanish from my system. It would deny me access, then unmount itself and corrupt the hard drive.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Black Magix*


X-Fi's (my particular chipset since there's more then one) Can not work with anything but OCC. I had nvidia drivers installed and regardless of which game I tried to play (even sim tower) the game always ran slow. In regards to the hard drive crashing - I would be using a hard drive and it would just vanish from my system. It would deny me access, then unmount itself and corrupt the hard drive.


The hard drive thing is really, really odd. I've never heard of anything like it.


----------



## Black Magix

Neither have I but windows still works on it just fine (after recreating partition table)


----------



## bobalobabingbong

I tried Ubuntu, and love it. But I always found myself switching back and forth to XP, which is a huge pain in my rear. Now I have Vista, and it does everything I want to do. I see no reason to add time swiitching back and forthe again.

And Wine does not work for mosy big games. The performance is a huge issue.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Black Magix* 
X-Fi's (my particular chipset since there's more then one) Can not work with anything but OCC. I had nvidia drivers installed and regardless of which game I tried to play (even sim tower) the game always ran slow. In regards to the hard drive crashing - I would be using a hard drive and it would just vanish from my system. It would deny me access, then unmount itself and corrupt the hard drive.

Not technically true regarding the X-fi. It is possible to get tham working with Alsa but it's a pain in the arse and stopped working every time something Kernel/glib/klib releated got updated.

That hard drive problem sounds very strange.


----------



## bowman

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobalobabingbong* 
I tried Ubuntu, and love it. But I always found myself switching back and forth to XP, which is a huge pain in my rear. Now I have Vista, and it does everything I want to do. I see no reason to add time swiitching back and forthe again.

And Wine does not work for mosy big games. The performance is a huge issue.

Same here, I'm not going to bother with dual booting for the desktop. I see no point.

The laptop on the other hand is too slow for gaming and XP is sluggish on it, so Linux is perfect. No dual booting either - no games, no point in Windows.


----------



## Blue_Fire

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Black Magix*


X-Fi's (my particular chipset since there's more then one) Can not work with anything but OCC. I had nvidia drivers installed and regardless of which game I tried to play (even sim tower) the game always ran slow. In regards to the hard drive crashing - I would be using a hard drive and it would just vanish from my system. It would deny me access, then unmount itself and corrupt the hard drive.


And that isn't even entirely true. I have done quite a few re-installs, and some many nights of dicking around this ubuntu 8 and still no x-fi sound.


----------



## enorbet2

Well it seems the obligatory die-hard linux haters have begun to subside so maybe we can get on to more constructive behaviour than reiterating known facts about security, gaming and the like.
Here's one good tip.... no, make that 2 in 1. If you have a slower and/or older computer *especially* if it is a laptop, try Puppy Linux. It is very small in it's Live CD form and will even fit on those mini CDs yet expand to considerable useful software. It is extremely snappy and can bring new life to old PCs and one big plus is that the iso is designed so that it does not close the session so that the CD can be written to and thus save a few settings assuming you intend to use that CD on same PC or at least ones w/ equivalent graphics cards. It is also extremely newb friendly.

Bonus - Latest versions of Puppy come with GParted which behaves much like Partition Magic or PQMagic but where it costs 50 bucks or so Puppy is free. So if you don't think you need or would even like to try the full OS you might at least enjoy powerful tools on the cheap.
Jimmy


----------



## go4life

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
6) Reliability
Let's face it. Windows crashes. A lot. XP seemed more stable than before, and Vista is OK, but I have never had a problem (that I have not caused myself) with Linux. It is nice knowing that you are not facing a crash.

Dude, THE ONLY times my xp crashes, is when I overclock badly, no offense though, I like linux, but the game support I dont like, therefor I use my XP-64-bit happily


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blue_Fire* 
And that isn't even entirely true. I have done quite a few re-installs, and some many nights of dicking around this ubuntu 8 and still no x-fi sound.

oss4 works fine for me. I even used to get my x-fi working with Alsa but it was a pain and stopped working everytime anything kernel releated got updated









Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
Well it seems the obligatory die-hard linux haters have begun to subside so maybe we can get on to more constructive behaviour than reiterating known facts about security, gaming and the like.
Here's one good tip.... no, make that 2 in 1. If you have a slower and/or older computer *especially* if it is a laptop, try Puppy Linux. It is very small in it's Live CD form and will even fit on those mini CDs yet expand to considerable useful software. It is extremely snappy and can bring new life to old PCs and one big plus is that the iso is designed so that it does not close the session so that the CD can be written to and thus save a few settings assuming you intend to use that CD on same PC or at least ones w/ equivalent graphics cards. It is also extremely newb friendly.

Bonus - Latest versions of Puppy come with GParted which behaves much like Partition Magic or PQMagic but where it costs 50 bucks or so Puppy is free. So if you don't think you need or would even like to try the full OS you might at least enjoy powerful tools on the cheap.
Jimmy

Slitaz is half the size of Puppy and kicks arse!


----------



## ILOVEPOTtery

Ubuntu 8, here I come! In a dual-boot of course, XP is still too convenient to get rid of.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ILOVEPOTtery*


Ubuntu 8, here I come! In a dual-boot of course, XP is still too convenient to get rid of.


Just trying it is good. The whole point of this thread is to learn about Linux, as see what you think of it. It'd be good to hear what you think.


----------



## ILOVEPOTtery

So far so good. This will definitely take some time getting comfortable with everything, but I'm digging it so far. I'm trying this out mainly for video encoding & folding, and some media serving to-fro my xbox. I think I'm here to stay!


----------



## enorbet2

1st for all you flamers... you're already using Linux daily and loving it since it is in ATMs, cell phones, menued answering services (well not as much in love with that one even though it beats unintelligible and/or idiotic first tier receptionist types and you can curse at bots w/o getting in trouble) automated check out counters, GPSs, many places in l'automobile, etc etc etc.

2nd someone mentioned photo or video editing and it is worth noting that there are many dedicated LiveCDs as well as installable distros. While Puppy is still a bit general with maintenance and older lappys in mind, some are much more dedicated....
for example.......

64Studio - is an installable distro dedicated to pro audio recording which means it already has all the most awesome apps like Ardour (multi-track mixing/recording live and mastering studio) and Hydrogen (killer syndrums) and Audacity as well as all the great drivers and utilities like LADSPA instrument and effects plugins along with Jack the amazing plugin system with extreme low latency controllers and all that plus more tuned especially for 64bit processors.

PHLAK - Professional Hackers Linux Assault Kit - The name says it all perhaps but it is open for both white hat and black hat network uhhh assessment.

Xevia and Zenwalk - two Live CDs made especially for video editing, playback and creation like KDenlive, VLC and Cinelerra as well as a sprinkling of good audio tools and full set of codecs

Slax - with a Slackware base and Blackbox,Fluxbox, or Xfce window manager one of the fastest and most up-to-date (had Atheros and Intel Pro WiFi drivers looong before Ubuntu) Live CDs around.

Knoppix - (of course) one of the first and oldest LiveCDs comes in many flavors and is constantly being updated and tweaked. There's even one version by a forensic cop with excellent sleuthing tools as well as Stealth Knoppix, Networking Knoppix, and so on..

I've burned and used all of the above and find that they not only give one a stunning box of precision tools but create a nice rounding out of Linux know-how and all of them are great ways to introduce even the casually interested (sometimes even the ignorant and hostile) especially when one compares it to the XP analogue, BartPE, which has to get it's props being so useful and important and all if only as a great repair tool but it's frankly Little League at best compared to the worst Linux LiveCD not because Bart lacks skills but because his hands (and ours) are so tied by proprietary bull****. I am surprised though that BartPE doesn't auto-include the Linux based XP repair tool that even has the password hacker built right into it.

Have fun...cool toys and serious tools all at the same time and I didn't even mention the ones with game system (even Arcade) emulators.

Digg it
Jimmy


----------



## dangerousHobo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


1st for all you flamers... you're already using Linux daily and loving it since it is in ATMs, cell phones, menued answering services (well not as much in love with that one even though it beats unintelligible and/or idiotic first tier receptionist types and you can curse at bots w/o getting in trouble) automated check out counters, GPSs, many places in l'automobile, etc etc etc.


Also this site runs on linux.


----------



## Chipp

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dangerousHobo* 
Also this site runs on linux.









Gotta love CentOS.


----------



## wierdo124

Wow, Lattyware, thanks, i now run Linux Mint and have it all set up! Compiz is working, i'm liking the speed, internet runs, got a nice theme going, and looks great. Now i need to install some programs, but i must say its better than i expected!

Unfortunately i don't have room in my sig for the sig piece


----------



## Soulphalanx

TBH, i think most people's windows crashes because they run prebuilt systems and have no maintained their computers in years. I've run windows with a well maintained computer and it hasnt crashed on me, except for the obvious overclocking unstabilities, but thats not the fault of windows.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soulphalanx* 
TBH, i think most people's windows crashes because they run prebuilt systems and have no maintained their computers in years. I've run windows with a well maintained computer and it hasnt crashed on me, except for the obvious overclocking unstabilities, but thats not the fault of windows.

Heh, Not the fault of. Is it Linux's fault that developers don't produce Linux drivers or games? No. But it still gets judged on it. The OS war is not fair









Quote:


Originally Posted by *wierdo124* 
Wow, Lattyware, thanks, i now run Linux Mint and have it all set up! Compiz is working, i'm liking the speed, internet runs, got a nice theme going, and looks great. Now i need to install some programs, but i must say its better than i expected!

Unfortunately i don't have room in my sig for the sig piece









Heh, No problem, I know what you mean, my sig is full. It's annoying the limit is so small (also that it includes links and stuff T_T). Glad you are enjoying it. Linux is so much more customisable, it's great to make the OS work exactly as you want, not having to do stuff the way it tells you to.


----------



## Lige

I havn't taken the test, but I already run Linux.








No sig for youz!


----------



## sLowEnd

There is *1* main reason why I don't use Linux
-The stuff I play uses GameGuard

And a few other reasons include
-Parent's programs aren't compatible with Linux
-Parents aren't willing to change
-My hard drive is a bit smaller than I would like it to be, so I won't dual-boot
-I'm lazy (Doesn't count, does it







)


----------



## theartist

I've tried Puppy on my 333mhz laptop, it was like a different machine. My only problem was my Ethernet adapter, couldn't find drivers for it so I couldn't use the internet. I put XP back on it, granted..it crawls like a snail again but everything works again.
If I could get drivers for my adapter I wouldn't hesitate to go back to using Puppy again.


----------



## Chipp

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theartist* 
I've tried Puppy on my 333mhz laptop, it was like a different machine. My only problem was my Ethernet adapter, couldn't find drivers for it so I couldn't use the internet. I put XP back on it, granted..it crawls like a snail again but everything works again.
If I could get drivers for my adapter I wouldn't hesitate to go back to using Puppy again.

Do you know the name of the adapter? I don't know of any devices that just flat-out have zero support for them.


----------



## Lige

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theartist* 
I've tried Puppy on my 333mhz laptop, it was like a different machine. My only problem was my Ethernet adapter, couldn't find drivers for it so I couldn't use the internet. I put XP back on it, granted..it crawls like a snail again but everything works again.
If I could get drivers for my adapter I wouldn't hesitate to go back to using Puppy again.

Did you goof around with it for a while? Usually, it works.


----------



## theartist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GH0* 
Did you goof around with it for a while? Usually, it works.

yea, for like a week!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theartist* 
I've tried Puppy on my 333mhz laptop, it was like a different machine. My only problem was my Ethernet adapter, couldn't find drivers for it so I couldn't use the internet. I put XP back on it, granted..it crawls like a snail again but everything works again.
If I could get drivers for my adapter I wouldn't hesitate to go back to using Puppy again.

Hmm.. normally wired connections are good. I guess puppy is stripped down. What adapter was it? (If you are still bothered)


----------



## Microsis

Can't get my wireless working in Linux









I have a Belkin wireless PCI card that Ubuntu just doesn't seem to recognize. (It can't find any wireless networks near me nor connect to any i specify).

I do not believe Belkin make linux drivers for this card. Any help on this?


----------



## theartist

Yea, I'm still interested.
It's a Zonet ZEN 1200 10/100MBPS Fast Ethernet 32-bit


----------



## Dualdot

I have ubuntu installed on my machine too, (dualboot is possible) but my machine is plenty fast and I take care of XP well enough for it to be Ã¼ber fast. I don't use linux because I don't turn off my computer often and I don't have a fixed schedual... Sometimes I play for 5 mins and then feel like doing something else. For this reason, I must say that linux is not a suitable option for me. 
I use it 2-3 times a month, keep it up to date, but rarely boot it just _becuase_...


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *theartist*


Yea, I'm still interested.
It's a Zonet ZEN 1200 10/100MBPS Fast Ethernet 32-bit


Try running 'modprobe rtl8139' as root.

Microsis: Wireless drivers are a problem, you can try using ndiswrapper or a wireless access point (see sig link).


----------



## theartist

It's not wireless


----------



## Microsis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Try running 'modprobe rtl8139' as root.

Microsis: Wireless drivers are a problem, you can try using ndiswrapper or a wireless access point (see sig link).


Maybe i should wait until i move back to my dorm so I can use the easy cat5









just a few more weeks!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *theartist*


It's not wireless


That was said to Microsis.


----------



## theartist

Oops!.........my bad.


----------



## enorbet2

Microsis - It is a good idea to look at the chipset on your Belkin Wireless PCI card since many of these are or become generic and thus drivers can often be found by googling for the chipset rather than just the card brand. There are also a few sites specifically for linux wireless. There is also often ndiswrapper support. Dlink makes a 3-way device smaller than a pack of cigarettes that plugs into any ethernet NIC. It has a switch which can take it through router, access point, and client mode. It can take a wired connection and share it in router mode wirelessly or a wireless connection and share it through a wired connection and with absolutely no drivers required for any OpSys including linux. I have a DLink DWL-G730AP that is roughly the height and width of a cig pack but about 1/3 the thickness and cost me around 26 bucks US. It is extremely useful and can even handle a small Lan Party.

One of windows' greatest strengths and also greatest weaknesses is the sheer number of hardware items it supports. Covering all bases is "expensive" in kernel overhead, compromises, and the opportunity for "spaghetti code". When wishing to use an "alternative" OS, and remember even Apple only recently added support for IDE drives and Intel CPUs, it becomes a force of habit to choose hardware based on support for your chosen OS. BTW if you want to see fast rebuild your kernel with support for only the exact hardware or family of hardware you have in that specific box and while your at it if you're into multimedia and/or gaming activate "low latancy" for extreme precision and ultra fast response and watch a PC reborn. This is not possible in Windows and is well worth the learning curve in Linux.
Jimmy


----------



## enorbet2

Hey Artist
Glad someone here checked out how screaming fast Puppy is on even ancient hardware and bothered to write about it. I suppose you've already tried "modprobe rtl8139" or "modprobe 8139too" (once again seek chipset drivers not hardware brand names) but I just wanted to ask since Puppy has a pretty decent network setup wizard, if your problem was "seeing" your NIC or setting up TCP/IP (DHCP or manual IP, Gateway, DNS) ? I've even used Puppy with an oddball USB-to-NIC adapter so I'm curious what NIC isn't or might not be supported. 
Good Luck
Jimmy


----------



## theartist

It's problem was "seeing" the NIC


----------



## enorbet2

Hello The Artist (btw I am as well)

I hope I'm not telling you something sp trivial everyone here already knows it but one really cool thing about "hot rods" (like Linux, originally hand-built by hackers for hackers) is that they have lots of "gauges", or in Linux's case various kinds of logs and documentation, built right in, no google required. One beautiful thing about the linux kernel is even if your distro displays some graphic to hide the nuts 'n bolts or if you don't use framebuffer to increase resolution of boot up text so that it flies by way too fast, just take a gander in "/var/log".

There you will find many logs although they may differ slightly by distro some are always present. For example since I use Slackware most I'll use it, "/var/log/messages" is a text file that not every distro has perhaps because it pretty much duplicates "dmesg" albeit in text form. Dmesg is accessed as a command, usually in a terminal, and often accompaniied by one or more switches to alter how it displays.

"#dmesg |more" delivers one pages worth and pauses, waiting for you to strike one of several keys to proceed by the line or by the page.

I won't go into detail about the "less", "more". and "tail" switches other than to point out (slightly off topic) that "tail" is particularly useful for hot pluggable hardware like USB, eSATA, and Firewire devices since it prints out only the "tail" end of dmesg which after installing a hot pluggable device is where that pertinent info should be found with no need to go over what hardware was discovered and it's disposition that occurred during boot.

It is worth looking around in /var/log as their are logs specific to XWindows and also nVidia places logs there as well. Also on some systems "lspci" and especially "cat proc" are commands that are very powerful at deriving and displaying information about your hardware. Some, not all as GUI is limited in flexibility compared to command line, of this data is available via GUI such as in KDE w/ "kinfocenter" a subset for hardware inside of "Control Center". Puppy has other names but does exactly the same thing, give a graphic face for these commands, usually somewhere in the "System" menu, iirc.

I don't want to scare anyone away with too much talk about possibilities, especially with CLI, just know that Linux is incredibly powerful if you learn to ask the right questions. For now I invite "the artist" and anyone else with hardware issues, to just open a terminal or if in KDE, Konsole, whatever, and simply type "dmesg". You don't need to worry about any switches if you don't want to get even mildly complicated because, unlike DOS, terminals in XWindows scroll (in strictly CLI they still Page Up and Page Down) so you can see everything. Some of it will make little sense but a good deal will make sense to even the rawest newb as you'll see your various hardware items get discovered, tested, and dealt with.

In "the artist" s case I am quite certain you will at least see your wireless chipset identified and possibly any warnings or difficulties the kernel has in loading a driver/module for it. Nothing gives you info or control over your hardware on such deep levels as linux, and still it is imposible to break hardware from the command line. The worst you can do is lose data and that is impossible on a LiveCD OpSys like Puppy, since all changeable data is on ramdrive.

Ultimately, the reason it takes a little while to learn Linux is because it can do so much more than any other OS. If you want to really "own yer box" instead of being some sort of lesee or guest, you're on the right path exploring Linux.

Jimmy


----------



## lattyware

OK, just rewrote the entire post.

Just thought it could do with some improvement.


----------



## purdueman

Nice job on the rewrite.

You covered all the major points of why I like Linux. But another major thing I like about Linux is the low system requirements and the ability to install on older systems. For example I have Arch Linux installed on a P3 700mhz system with Compiz fully enabled.


----------



## endo

well i took the linux challenge before this thread was started. right now im having problems with getting wifi and a wired nic to work on my laptop but if you just take some time you can figure anything out. i even fixed grub for the first time the other day and i always thought that it was to hard for me to figure out but it was actually easy.

i recommend linux to every one out there. even if you dual boot and only use linux to surf the net. but you can also use a linux live cd to recover files from a hdd with a corrupt os which is nice.

and if your into computers then nothing feels better then finally figuring something out that was giving you problems.


----------



## francesthemutes

I've been trying to get openSUSE 11 to see my wi-fi. I made a thread about it but nothing anyone suggested works. It sees the card but won't see the broadcasting signal, or ANY signal at all. Ethernet works but wireless does not. It's frustrating as hell because my girlfriend wants to use it on a laptop but if it's wireless isn't going to work she won't use it.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Yeah, I figured I would try Linux, so I tried it.

I couldn't even get past the installation. GG.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis* 
Yeah, I figured I would try Linux, so I tried it.

I couldn't even get past the installation. GG.

what distro did you try?

I couldn't get past the installation of Arch64, but i use ubuntu every day.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Ubuntu 8.04


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis* 
Ubuntu 8.04

Did you have a specific problem?

Because, no offense, but if you couldn't do it and it all went normally, you'd have to not be able to find the 'next' button or something. It's rediculously easy.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis* 
Ubuntu 8.04

what did you get stuck at?

When i fist installed it i was confused for ages because it would simply not boot, even from the live disk.

But int he advanced startup options i had to edit the line. I got rid of ''quiet'' and changed ''splash'' to ''nosplash''

I believe it's f6 at the main boot menu to enter the advanced options, but thats just from memory so i could be wrong.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

I didn't see any of the stuff what your talking about on the disk... but of course I don't have the disk anymore as its being used as a coaster right now.


----------



## francesthemutes

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis* 
I didn't see any of the stuff what your talking about on the disk... but of course I don't have the disk anymore as its being used as a coaster right now.

You're one of those people that if something doesn't come up and slap them in the face with the answer, it's not worth it aren't you?


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francesthemutes* 
You're one of those people that if something doesn't come up and slap them in the face with the answer, it's not worth it aren't you?

Actually I am the kind of person that compares 2 things, and sees that one works fine, and the other doesn't work at all. So I will stick with the thing that is functional.


----------



## francesthemutes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Actually I am the kind of person that compares 2 things, and sees that one works fine, and the other doesn't work at all. So I will stick with the thing that is functional.


If you can't get beyond a simple GUI install I wouldn't be blaming the OS.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

The install should be the least of my worries, so with how bad of an impression the install gives me I can't even imagine what a pain the actual OS will be.


----------



## Mr_Torch

Linux is the absolute best server made, but in my opinion, as far as the Linux desktop, it has too many unsupported variances, such as gaming. It has its plus, but there are too many minus debits to make it a mainstream desktop OS. If as said previously, it were an OS that was mainstream many years ago. People would be comfortable with it, but as it is...things are not made for Linux...it is just an afterthought. And with that being true, it will not get the support, or the development effort that would be required to make it a primary OS for the masses. For gaming, for graphic applications and so forth.


----------



## thiussat

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Mr_Torch*


Linux is the absolute best server made, but in my opinion, as far as the Linux desktop, it has too many unsupported variances, such as gaming. It has its plus, but there are too many minus debits to make it a mainstream desktop OS. If as said previously, it were an OS that was mainstream many years ago. People would be comfortable with it, but as it is...things are not made for Linux...it is just an afterthought. And with that being true, it will not get the support, or the development effort that would be required to make it a primary OS for the masses. For gaming, for graphic applications and so forth.


What do you mean by "things are not made for Linux?" I challenge you to show me a piece of consumer hardware that the Linux kernel won't run on. Linux will run on almost any hardware. Did you know that TIVO (the DVR) runs on Linux? As has been mentioned before, most mission critical supercomputers run on Unix/Linux. Show me a supercomputer than runs XP or vista.









And what do you mean by "it won't get the support or development effort?" I guess you don't realize that there are more programmers and developers working on Linux and all it's variants than Windows. Microsoft has money, sure, but the Linux community of developers is larger and more transparent (which helps a lot).

And it's just a matter of time before the big game makers start releasing Linux versions. There was a story posted in the News forum the other day about a major computer game maker announcing that they plan future Linux ports.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- in 10 years or so Windows will be nothing but a historical curiosity. M$ will still be around, but they won't be putting much effort into OS's since everyone will be able to get better OS's for free.

BTW, it's not really accurate anymore to lump "Linux" into a single category. The distributions vary so widely these days, from servers, to multimedia desktops and everything in between. You have source based distros and binary distros. You have point and click distros (Ubuntu) and distros that make you do it on your own (Gentoo, Slackware). You have distros that cost money (Red Hat, Xandros, etc.) and those that are free (95%).

With all of this choice and variation, *nix will take over the majority of marketshare on the desktop, just like it has already done with servers.


----------



## Masterchief3k

I've been using it exclusively all summer long. ubuntu 8.04 ftw, other distros just don't cut it. always a problem, suse, wireless isn't working, even though the driver is installed, sabayon 3.3, wireless also broken, sabayon 3.5 sound not working, but wireless does, odd?

Ubuntu seems to do everything right, just that my webcam does not work.

I love linux. I have tried it before, way back in 2005. my first distro was ubuntu 5.10 at school in computer class, then we all tried redhat 8 enterprise. then suse. now it's all windows vista, but we all(the class) know it sucks so XP is dual booted on those machines at school.


----------



## Everrdi

I was first introduced to Unix/Linux almost 15 years ago when I was in the Navy and I thought it was the best thing since gravy. In your the last post it was mentioned about the number of programmers etc. that are working on Unix and its' VARIANTS, here in lies the problem. There are way to may different flavors, variants, differences for there to be any decent work done to to get the OS to a point were it could even be considered a contender for an everyday desktop OS. Believe me, if there was even 10% to the available programs/games/etc ported to Linux, I would be a permanent convert. But I don't think that day will ever come so I will continue to use the Windows OS. Thank you.


----------



## Everrdi

In Reply to Thuissats comment about showing him a supercomputer running XP or Vista....duh...neither one of those were designed for a supercomputer, and I highly doubt the you would find Ubuntu running on one either.......


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Everrdi*


I was first introduced to Unix/Linux almost 15 years ago when I was in the Navy and I thought it was the best thing since gravy. In your the last post it was mentioned about the number of programmers etc. that are working on Unix and its' VARIANTS, here in lies the problem. There are way to may different flavors, variants, differences for there to be any decent work done to to get the OS to a point were it could even be considered a contender for an everyday desktop OS. Believe me, if there was even 10% to the available programs/games/etc ported to Linux, I would be a permanent convert. But I don't think that day will ever come so I will continue to use the Windows OS. Thank you.


This is a mistunderstanding of how Linux and it's Distros work.
Programmers work on projects. The Linux Kernel, Gnome, KDE, Amarok, etc... each Distro includes these projects. Work gets done and it affects every distro. Distros are not independant, but a collection of other things, and when one benefits, so do the others. There are plenty of high-grade applications for Linux, games are more lacking.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Mr_Torch*


Linux is the absolute best server made, but in my opinion, as far as the Linux desktop, it has too many unsupported variances, such as gaming. It has its plus, but there are too many minus debits to make it a mainstream desktop OS. If as said previously, it were an OS that was mainstream many years ago. People would be comfortable with it, but as it is...things are not made for Linux...it is just an afterthought. And with that being true, it will not get the support, or the development effort that would be required to make it a primary OS for the masses. For gaming, for graphic applications and so forth.


There are a few things that Linux can't do. Mainly gaming, and a few speciality applications.

Most people don't game on their PC, and most people don't use Photoshop (or if they do, they'd be fine with the GIMP).

Don't get me wrong. I understand some people need to run software that only works under Windows, but the majority of people don't, and if they do, dual booting, WINE and emulation are viable options.

You two also totally missed the point of the post which was to try Linux (an up to date version, now) and comment on it, not spout reasons on why you think you shouldn't bother.


----------



## Everrdi

I have tried Linux on many occasions, Red Hat, Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS. Heck, I have an old P3 system in my basement running PCLinuxOS just Folding, slowly, but folding all the same. VMWare player with Ubuntu 7.10 desktop is running consistently on my sig-rig with the Linux SMP folding client, so I do use Linux and I am not anti-Linux. It is just that Linux is not "Easy" for the average user/general public to get setup and operational. I worked for 5 days straight to get Ubuntu to recognize the wireless adapter in my Dell Inspirion, it never happened. Please keep in mind that I am in no way, form, or fashion a Linux super user, I would barely qualify as a novice, but I have been in the PC business for many years and if Linux was as "Easy" for the average person to use as Windows (yes even Vista!), I would use it on all my systems. But I know that my wife and kids would never figure out how to do some of the basic things. Then there is the talk of the apps and using WINE, etc. I don't want to/ shouldn't have to resort to using 3rd party apps to make other apps work. Dual boot, just another pain!
An if Linux is the "Wave of the Future", how come more games don't come out in Linux versions?
At this point in my life, and many others will agree with me, simpler is getter and Linux is not simple. Sorry, but I have given Linux its shot and in my opinion, it is still second fiddle to Windows OS, even Vista.


----------



## endo

sorry guys linux is simple. i can have a fully functional os in 20 minutes and just a couple minutes if i use the live cd. that live cd is awesome. no pulling a drive from a computer and slaving it to another just to recover files.

also my wife installed ubuntu on here own and all she does on a computer is surf the net and IM and has no pc knowledge at all so if you cant figure out how to install ubuntu then i dont know how you can install windows or even use a computer at all.

and saying that linux OS's arnt viable because there are no games is just lame. there is more in life then just gaming and i would love to pay $100 less for a computer with out windows because gaming is only about 2% of what i do on my pc so windows is a waste of money for me

i will agree though that there are some hardware issues but it only seams to be wifi nics that have the most problems.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *endo*


so if you cant figure out how to install ubuntu then i dont know how you can install windows or even use a computer at all.


QFT. Out of the 3 big OSs, Ubuntu is hands down the easiest to install.


----------



## S.M.

As soon as wine doesn't suck. I'll be all linux.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
QFT. Out of the 3 big OSs, Ubuntu is hands down the easiest to install.


i remember when i was using an ubuntu live CD to recover files from a dead pc at work, and even the employees could use it well, some of them still don't know the basics of xp


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


QFT. Out of the 3 big OSs, Ubuntu is hands down the easiest to install.


Yeah, well it is hard for me to see that when it took Vista 20 minutes to install and Ubuntu never did install. Sure, if you want to actually take the time to investigate your problem... all the power to you.

But since installing is the easiest part and I couldn't get that to work, I can't even fathom how much of a pain the actual OS will be.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *endo*


and saying that linux OS's arnt viable because there are no games is just lame. there is more in life then just gaming and i would love to pay $100 less for a computer with out windows because gaming is only about 2% of what i do on my pc so windows is a waste of money for me


You have PC gamers, graphic artists, video editors, and pretty much every major company with a computer network using Windows. Sure, they may use it for server applications, but not in the office on all the computers their employees work on. The companies won't ever switch because they have people hired that are trained in Windows, so they won't know what to do at all when using Linux.

That is a big population, and they all won't be able to use Linux. Sure, you may have the occasional granny that has her PC just for internet and email. But most people do at least one of the above. So, since Linux has no native support, not emulation, but native support for that stuff... then nobody is going to use it. So, until they do support it... why must you keep arguing this failed argument all the time?


----------



## lattyware

Your post is uninformed rubbish.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Yeah, well it is hard for me to see that when it took Vista 20 minutes to install and Ubuntu never did install. Sure, if you want to actually take the time to investigate your problem... all the power to you.


Most people manage to install Ubuntu fine. If you had a problem, tell us what it was, and maybe we can shed light on the issue.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


But since installing is the easiest part and I couldn't get that to work, I can't even fathom how much of a pain the actual OS will be.


Most people manage the installation easily. You are drawing this conclusion without actually having tried it.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


You have PC gamers, graphic artists, video editors, and pretty much every major company with a computer network using Windows. Sure, they may use it for server applications, but not in the office on all the computers their employees work on.


Yeah that's not true. Plenty of companies, governments, etc... run Linux on all of their computers.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


The companies won't ever switch because they have people hired that are trained in Windows, so they won't know what to do at all. Plus, I highly doubt that Linux can give them the same support that Microsoft can.


Linux isn't hard to use, plenty of companies use it. Linux isn't a company, A company like Canonical, Red Hat, Novell, etc... can give them far better support than M$ can.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


That is a big population, and they all won't be able to use Linux. Sure, you may have the occasional granny that has her PC just for internet and email. But most people do at least one of the above. So, since Linux has no native support, not emulation, but native support for that stuff... then nobody is going to use it. So, until they do support it... why must you keep arguing this failed argument all the time?


Because you are wrong, for 99% of tasks, there is Linux software to do it. No, you can't be a proffesional graphics artist and use Linux really, as Photoshop is necesary, no you can't really Game under Linux, no you can't really do professional video editing, but beyond that, there is little Linux can't do - and it can do more than windows in a lot of areas too.

If you are just editing graphics or pictures for anything other than proffesional print, you can do it in the GIMP, which is better than basically everything except for Photoshop, including Photoshop elements. I can mock up web designs perfectly well in the GIMP. I can also edit videos with Kino. Sure, it's not as powerful as Final Cut, but it's perfectly usable.

You have not used Linux, you have said so yourself - so this is all based on stuff you have heard wrongly, or presumed wrongly. The whole point of this thread was to try it and talk about your experience, good job for missing that one.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Most people manage to install Ubuntu fine. If you had a problem, tell us what it was, and maybe we can shed light on the issue.


The problem was that I couldn't install it. Some stupid thing kept coming up called like Busy Box or something and I could never get into the installer.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Most people manage the installation easily. You are drawing this conclusion without actually having tried it.


No, you are drawing the conclusion that I haven't tried it. I used it once back when 7.04 was out, and it was a overall nightmare to get everything working right. At least I only had to reinstall that version like 4 times to get it working right. With the 8.04 version I had to install and reinstall it like 11 times taking up almost a full day of my time. I managed to get it booted up one time, but then after I installed my Nvidia drivers it would not boot again.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


The problem was that I couldn't install it. Some stupid thing kept coming up called like Busy Box or something and I could never get into the installer.

No, you are drawing the conclusion that I haven't tried it. I used it once back when 7.04 was out, and it was a overall nightmare to get everything working right. At least I only had to reinstall that version like 4 times to get it working right. With the 8.04 version I had to install and reinstall it like 11 times taking up almost a full day of my time. I managed to get it booted up one time, but then after I installed my Nvidia drivers it would not boot again.


Well, then you havn't tried it.

You have had extremely bad luck with what sounds like incompatible hardware and not had the chance to try it.

I doubt you needed to reinstall a load of times, to me, that sounds like user error.

Either way, your experience is not the average one. So you shouldn't apply it to everything. Ubuntu is very easy to use, you just apparently managed to break it.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Well, then you havn't tried it.

You have had extremely bad luck with what sounds like incompatible hardware and not had the chance to try it.

I doubt you needed to reinstall a load of times, to me, that sounds like user error.

Either way, your experience is not the average one. So you shouldn't apply it to everything. Ubuntu is very easy to use, you just apparently managed to break it.


Yes, I have tried it. I am saying I used 7.04 for months before. It wasn't a great experience, but after all the headaches of getting everything working properly, it worked fine. I just reformatted and decided not to reinstall it.

And I managed to break it?







I am pretty sure it was broken well before I got my hands on it.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Yes, I have tried it. I am saying I used 7.04 for months before. It wasn't a great experience, but after all the headaches of getting everything working properly, it worked fine. I just reformatted and decided not to reinstall it.

And I managed to break it?







I am pretty sure it was broken well before I got my hands on it.


This is redundant, what I am saying is that what you said in your post was flat-out wrong.

When I said you broke it, I meant either you did something that caused problems, or your PC included some hardware that did not have drivers or whatever.

What you said before wasn't based on an experience of Linux, as it was all just wrong. Whether you have tried it or not, you havn't tried it properly in the first post, otherwise you wouldn't have all of your misconceptions. Not to mention 7.04 is two versions behind.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


What you said before wasn't based on an experience of Linux, as it was all just wrong. Whether you have tried it or not, you havn't tried it properly in the first post, otherwise you wouldn't have all of your misconceptions.


I only tried it for a couple of months. And I only probably used it like once a week. So, I have not used it long, but I have used it properly and in its full ability. I don't see how you just cant accept that someone actually used Linux and didn't like it. God forbid that, just put on your blinders and walk on by.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Not to mention 7.04 is two versions behind.


Yeah, but its the only version I can get installed, but I haven't even checked so I may not be able to install that anymore. All I know is that the latest version I can't even make it into the installer. Some stupid BusyBox thing or whatever it was called comes up.

I would like to install it just to play around with, but it is not worth all this time and hassle just to get it installed. If someone notices a blatant problem with this, then it would be nice to know...


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


I only tried it for a couple of months. And I only probably used it like once a week. So, I have not used it long, but I have used it properly and in its full ability. I don't see how you just cant accept that someone actually used Linux and didn't like it. God forbid that, just put on your blinders and walk on by.

Yeah, but its the only version I can get installed, but I haven't even checked so I may not be able to install that anymore. All I know is that the latest version I can't even make it into the installer. Some stupid BusyBox thing or whatever it was called comes up.

I would like to install it just to play around with, but it is not worth all this time and hassle just to get it installed. If someone notices a blatant problem with this, then it would be nice to know...


I don't have a problem with you not liking it, I do have a problem with you saying it is useless for everyone except a small majority - which you did say.

Don't twist my words.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


I don't have a problem with you not liking it, I do have a problem with you saying it is useless for everyone except a small majority - which you did say.

Don't twist my words.


I never said useless... I said those people _won't want it._ Don't twist my words.

Sure, they can still game or do whatever they want through emulation and whatnot, its not impossible... but its a lot more work than people are willing to do to just get something to run that runs fine on a Windows OS in the first place.


----------



## Badger.flynn

Last time I installed it, it took hours over the course of two days to install the video drivers due to certain packages not being installed by default which I then had to identify myself, then download, and then install, too much work and pain for a simple driver, personally thought it was crazy.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


I never said useless... I said those people _won't want it._ Don't twist my words.

Sure, they can still game or do whatever they want through emulation and whatnot, its not impossible... but its a lot more work than people are willing to do to just get something to run that runs fine on a Windows OS in the first place.


The whole point of this thread is to introduce people, try and get them to try it out because it is worth the effort (which is very little for most people).

My hairdresser, for example, runs Ubuntu. I helped her set it up when she was having real problems with a slow-running virus-infected install of XP. I installed it for her (next, next, next affair), and she hasn't needed help since, despite being a self-confessed idiot when it comes to computing. She said that it just worked fine, and everything works as she expected. She types stuff up, browsing, email, IM, and edits a few photos from a digital camera with the GIMP. It's perfect for her, free, secure, and easy.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Yeah, well it is hard for me to see that when it took Vista 20 minutes to install and Ubuntu never did install. Sure, if you want to actually take the time to investigate your problem... all the power to you.

But since installing is the easiest part and I couldn't get that to work, I can't even fathom how much of a pain the actual OS will be.


My sister got Ubuntu installed in < 20 minutes as well. I'm sorry, but if you can't figure out how to hit the "Next" button a few times... There's little I can say except you're not too smart or you're not trying or both. And that isn't to say you have to "try;" that's to say you're going into it with "I'm going to hate it and I know it" in the back of your mind and refusing to hit "Next" or type in your name or password or whatever.

So either you're having extremely bad luck (like the other hateful fanatic, pauldovi; what a coincidence), or you just decided to pop in the disk and not doing anything so that you could come back and bash yet defend yourself with "I've tried Linux and I have 'experience' and get to say I hate it now."

Maybe you haven't realized that the point of this thread is to *try something new*, not give us your hate stories.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


My sister got Ubuntu installed in < 20 minutes as well. I'm sorry, but if you can't figure out how to hit the "Next" button a few times... There's little I can say except you're not too smart or you're not trying or both. And that isn't to say you have to "try;" that's to say you're going into it with "I'm going to hate it and I know it" in the back of your mind and refusing to hit "Next" or type in your name or password or whatever.


I don't know where you get off saying I am not smart or not trying. I have stated the problem I am having and nobody has bothered to help me fix it. If I were not trying I wouldn't have spent a whole day trying to get it working before I realized that it was a waste of time.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


you're having extremely bad luck


This is about the only correct thing you said in your post.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


or you just decided to pop in the disk and not doing anything so that you could come back and bash yet defend yourself with "I've tried Linux and I have 'experience' and get to say I hate it now."


Well gosh I am so sorry I have a legitimate problem. If you want to hear what I really think about it, then maybe you would take the time to help me with my problem rather than call me a liar, say I'm stupid, and tell me what I have done and not done.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Maybe you haven't realized that the point of this thread is to *try something new*, not give us your hate stories.


Now this is stupid. What do you think it is I am doing? I am attempting to try something new. And oh wow, look, I actually don't like it! And how could you actually like something that doesn't work at all? At least I have a legitimate reason not to like it, other than the people bashing on Vista saying "its bad." At least I can say whats bad about it.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


I don't know where you get off saying I am not smart or not trying. I have stated the problem I am having and nobody has bothered to help me fix it. If I were not trying I wouldn't have spent a whole day trying to get it working before I realized that it was a waste of time.

This is about the only correct thing you said in your post.

Well gosh I am so sorry I have a legitimate problem. If you want to hear what I really think about it, then maybe you would take the time to help me with my problem rather than call me a liar, say I'm stupid, and tell me what I have done and not done.

Now this is stupid. What do you think it is I am doing? I am attempting to try something new. And oh wow, look, I actually don't like it! And how could you actually like something that doesn't work at all? At least I have a legitimate reason not to like it, other than the people bashing on Vista saying "its bad." At least I can say whats bad about it.


I have a legitimate reason to dislike vista: I have something better for free.

And yes, I have given reasons, oh look, that's this thread.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I have a legitimate reason to dislike vista: I have something better for free.

And yes, I have given reasons, oh look, that's this thread.

I don't know how its better if I can't even get it installed.


----------



## Chipp

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


I don't know how its better if I can't even get it installed.


That is a little beside the point of this thread... Regardless of the source of your error, it is just that - an error, which is not representative of the majority of people's experiences with linux.

If you wish to either work to solve whatever issue you may have been having or simply rant about your experience, there are proper places to do either of those. However, this thread is not that place.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chipp* 
That is a little beside the point of this thread... Regardless of the source of your error, it is just that - an error, which is not representative of the majority of people's experiences with linux.

If you wish to either work to solve whatever issue you may have been having or simply rant about your experience, there are proper places to do either of those. However, this thread is not that place.

Well lattyware had asked me what my problem was, and I have said on multiple occasions what my problem was and nobody including him has helped me yet. I assumed the fact that he was asking my problem was so that he could help me.

I have seen other questions asked here... at least they got help.


----------



## purdueman

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Well lattyware had asked me what my problem was, and I have said on multiple occasions what my problem was and nobody including him has helped me yet. I assumed the fact that he was asking my problem was so that he could help me.

I have seen other questions asked here... at least they got help.


So your problem is BusyBox keeps stopping the installation?

There seems to be a lot of issues with BusyBox. 
Here is a list of BusyBox issues http://ubuntuforums.org/tags.php?tag=busybox

They seem to fixed by changing something in the bios.
I think this thread should help you http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=765195


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Well, it doesn't look like I had such bad luck after all... the OS actually has the problem with what looks like quite a crowd.


----------



## thiussat

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Yes, I have tried it. I am saying I used 7.04 for months before. It wasn't a great experience, but after all the headaches of getting everything working properly, it worked fine. I just reformatted and decided not to reinstall it.

And I managed to break it?







I am pretty sure it was broken well before I got my hands on it.


When the install drops you to "busy box" you should have a shell prompt with a cursor. if so, enter the following in the shell:

Quote:



uname -r


It will out put the kernel version.

Then type:

Quote:



update-initramfs -k <kernel-version>c -c


For instance, you will input something like:

Quote:



update-initramfs -k 2.6.24-16-i586c -c


Just put the version of the kernel in there. It will probably be 2.6.24-16, but it may be something slightly different.

Don't forget the "c" right after the kernel and then the "-c" after that.


----------



## fcky529

Does anyone remember having to "relearn" windows with the release of 95? Switching to linux is more comparable to moving from 95 to xp, it's faily easy.

_Then there's this whole gaming thing :/_


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


I don't know where you get off saying I am not smart or not trying.


You don't even want to try to get past the installation. "Installation is too hard; I'm basing my experience of the OS off of that."

That's not trying.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


I have stated the problem I am having and nobody has bothered to help me fix it.


Yes they have, which further leads me to believe you're not trying.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Now this is stupid. What do you think it is I am doing? I am attempting to try something new. And oh wow, look, I actually don't like it! And how could you actually like something that doesn't work at all?


How about try another one? Ubuntu isn't the only easy distro out there. You could try Suse (my personal favorite), Mandriva, or PC Linux OS. Those are some pretty good ones.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


At least I have a legitimate reason not to like it, other than the people bashing on Vista saying "its bad."


I really don't see that anymore around here. Most of the people on this site who aren't pleased with vista have actually installed and used it and didn't like it. I think it's stuck in the back of the minds of the vista lovers that "anyone who doesn't like this must not have tried it," the same way "Linux is too hard" is stuck in their heads.

It's an excuse, as far as I can tell.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


You don't even want to try to get past the installation. "Installation is too hard; I'm basing my experience of the OS off of that."


Its not too hard, its impossible. No matter what I have done, it wont work.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Yes they have, which further leads me to believe you're not trying.


Yes, they did help... *after I posted this.* So, at the time when I posted, nobody had helped me. I suppose you just waited for someone to help me so you could say I was making excuses?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


How about try another one? Ubuntu isn't the only easy distro out there. You could try Suse (my personal favorite), Mandriva, or PC Linux OS. Those are some pretty good ones.


I have past experience with Ubuntu so I know how to get around in it. But it seems that this issue they have isn't getting resolved so I may just try something else until they get it fixed.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I really don't see that anymore around here. Most of the people on this site who aren't pleased with vista have actually installed and used it and didn't like it. I think it's stuck in the back of the minds of the vista lovers that "anyone who doesn't like this must not have tried it," the same way "Linux is too hard" is stuck in their heads.


Yeah, I could agree with that, except there is more people in the world then the people on OCN. And I can tell you for sure the people I see every day are still going about trashing it with no experience.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


It's an excuse, as far as I can tell.


You must have the observation skills of a 5 year old TBH.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thiussat*


When the install drops you to "busy box" you should have a shell prompt with a cursor. if so, enter the following in the shell:

It will out put the kernel version.

Then type:

For instance, you will input something like:

Just put the version of the kernel in there. It will probably be 2.6.24-16, but it may be something slightly different.

Don't forget the "c" right after the kernel and then the "-c" after that.


Are you sure this will help? From what I was reading in the thread that purdueman posted, it seemed to be some kind of hard drive issue/floppy detection issue. They said that if you set your BIOS to RAID instead of IDE it will fix it... but I don't have RAID.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Its not too hard, its impossible. No matter what I have done, it wont work.


Alright, make whatever fun of me you want, but that right there proves my case and point.

Next person, please.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Alright, make whatever fun of me you want, but that right there proves my case and point.

Next person, please.


Maybe you should go over to the Ubuntu forum and see the hundreds of posts confirming my problem and how many people still haven't managed to fix it yet.

If you happen to find a solution, I'm sure all these people stuck in the water would appreciate an answer.

You claim I am "not trying" or "making excuses," maybe you should check other forums just besides here.


----------



## Melcar

One usually gets dropped to a "busybox" when the kernel can't load a particular module and idles for a while, therefore the problem is very likely a hardware issue. Most common issues right now seem to be with disk controllers. This could also be caused by a "bad"* BIOS, so updating (or downgrading) your MB BIOS could be a possible solution (or simply try different kernels).

* there may be nothing wrong with the BIOS itself, but the Linux kernel is more prone to inconsistencies and bugs in BIOS files, unlike the Windows kernel which simply ignores errors and leaves the fixes to higher level drivers.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Melcar*


One usually gets dropped to a "busybox" when the kernel can't load a particular module and idles for a while, therefore the problem is very likely a hardware issue. Most common issues right now seem to be with disk controllers. This could also be caused by a "bad"* BIOS, so updating (or downgrading) your MB BIOS could be a possible solution (or simply try different kernels).

* there may be nothing wrong with the BIOS itself, but the Linux kernel is more prone to inconsistencies and bugs in BIOS files, unlike the Windows kernel which simply ignores errors and leaves the fixes to higher level drivers.


Indeed. The problem is, Windows doesn't expect the BIOS to do it's job, so it compensates, so the BIOS makers don't bother. It's just the same as with the web standards mess we are in now.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis*


Maybe you should go over to the Ubuntu forum and see the hundreds of posts confirming my problem and how many people still haven't managed to fix it yet.

If you happen to find a solution, I'm sure all these people stuck in the water would appreciate an answer.

You claim I am "not trying" or "making excuses," maybe you should check other forums just besides here.


Ok, then how about trying another distro? I mentioned a few good beginner ones for you: Suse, Mandriva, PCLOS. I often have hardware problems as well, but I've never had one problem exist on every distro, although YMMV.


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Ok, then how about trying another distro? I mentioned a few good beginner ones for you: Suse, Mandriva, PCLOS. I often have hardware problems as well, but I've never had one problem exist on every distro, although YMMV.


Which would you recommend out of those?

I am somewhat already accustomed to Ubuntu so I would like to get whatever other distro is closest to that.


----------



## thiussat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis* 
Maybe you should go over to the Ubuntu forum and see the hundreds of posts confirming my problem and how many people still haven't managed to fix it yet.

If you happen to find a solution, I'm sure all these people stuck in the water would appreciate an answer.

You claim I am "not trying" or "making excuses," maybe you should check other forums just besides here.

Try a different distro. There are hundreds. Go with SUSE or Mandriva or PCLOS. I guarantee one of those will install properly.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Fidelis* 
Which would you recommend out of those?

I am somewhat already accustomed to Ubuntu so I would like to get whatever other distro is closest to that.

I haven't used Mandriva in years, but when I did I liked it. I can only imagine that it has gotten better.

PCLOS I have not used, but I think it's based on Mandriva?

Suse is my personal favorite. My opinion is that it provides a good balance of "power" and ease. If anything, I think it's easier than Ubuntu because of Yast, the OS's control center. It centralizes the operating system. This is where you configure your hardware, do system maintenance (backups, partitioning/disk work, etc), and software management (package manager). It just makes more sense to me that the OS has its own control center, whereas Ubuntu runs on rather "generic" system control programs.

If you like, give Suse a try. I recommend 32-bit and KDE 3.5 as the DE for the least headaches. The download DVD is rather big, though. There's a CD, but I'm not sure if it's a live ONLY disk, or both a live + install disk.


----------



## thiussat

Advantages of SUSE: YAST and a very large community backed by a big corporation (Novell). You can always rely on releases every few months and constant updates as well as support.

Advantages of Mandriva: Drakx install/configure apps and the Mandriva Control Center (very similar to YAST, yet better imo). Mandy is also backed by a corporation -- Connectiva. Mandriva was for years, prior to Ubuntu's appearance, the newb distro. I have no idea why Ubuntu took over like it did, but I personally find Mandriva easier to use and better looking. The only thing I can think of is that Mandriva is a French distro, more popular in Europe, and didn;t catch on as well in the US and some other non-euro countries.

Advantages of PCLOS: The head-honcho, Texstar, was a long-time Mandriva packager/developer. He started PCLOS to reconcile some of the things he didn't like about Mandriva. So, essentially, PCLOS is Mandriva (it has the Control Center and the Drak tools) but PCLOS focuses more on "making it just work." It's the only distro I have tried to date that had ALL of my hardware working upon install. PCLOS is not backed by corporate money, so new releases can be slow. However, it follows a "rolling release" model, so all you have to do is open Synaptic, click "Update All" and you're ready to roll. It's definitely the simplest distro I have seen. I have contributed to PCLOS (very marginally) and I can say that Texstar is a perfectionist. Packages are tested, tested some more, and then rebuilt and tested again before they ever make it into the repos.

The reason I think these are the 3 best newb distros is that they all have a centralized "control center" (much like Windows' Control Center) where you can configure your system entirely through the GUI if you want. This makes the transitition easier for Windows converts.

Again, if you want to try Linux, any of the above three will be your best bet. I agree 100% with HG on this.

Good luck.


----------



## lattyware

I tend to reccomend Ubuntu to n00bs purely because it's what most people use and information is more easy to come by.

That said, It's becoming a little bloated now-a-days, I hope they start reigning in and optimising it a little.

Either way, I use Arch. Definitely not for n00bs unless they want to learn off the bat.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thiussat*


Advantages of SUSE: YAST and a very large community backed by a big corporation (Novell). You can always rely on releases every few months and constant updates as well as support.


Suse releases about once every year or so rather than 6 months like Ubuntu or Fedora (Fedora releases between 6 months and a year).

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


I tend to reccomend Ubuntu to n00bs purely because it's what most people use and information is more easy to come by.


Yeah, that's probably the reason it took over. The community is very large. On the other hand, I never knew many people who used Mandrake. Also, the first time I went to download it (about the first time I used Linux, around 4 years ago), I had a hard time finding it on their site. They made it seem like they really wanted you to purchase the box before going for the free OSS download.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
While this post is somewhat specific for SemperFidelis, it should be helpful in general for a few. At the very least in your BIOS/cmos-setup one should go to the PNP page and fix the "PNP OS" entry. This entry is designed almost specifically for windows and can really get in the way on some machines and with some OpSys choices. Basically since the entry varies a little from bios to bios just take control for plug 'n play (PNP) away from the OS and put it back in the hands of the bios. Most commonly it will be an entry like "PNP OS" with "yes" or "no" as the only two options. Just say no.

As for distros, since so many have LiveCDs either directly or indirectly (example: while Slackware install dvd is not technically a live CD/DVD, there exists "Slax" which is) and this can almost always be discovered simply by utilizing one of the many websites devoted to distros and/or live cds where a brief synopsis is always included and often is "searchable". Most live CDs have boot options that if simply either thought through or played with will result in achieving desktop if the default doesn't as it might it the case of some specific hardware problem. It is true that not all distros share the same hardware difficulties so it is worth trying a few.

Also since distros are merely a form of packaging select software items, perhaps most importantlly to most software package handling such as rpm's, deb's, tgz's or simple compilation from source, the main interface is your choice of window manager and while there are at least a dozen possible to choose from, only two are common, KDE and Gnome.

There is considerable controversy even among linux fans as to which is best (we never escape Chevy vs/ Ford, right?) but both are fairly intuitive and for better or worse KDE is more sort of "windowsy" so maybe you might be inclined to opt for livecds that feature it but believe me it really makes little difference to most folks if you are at all inclined to any bit of adventure at all. Even the minimalist Blackbox, Fluxbox and it's derivatives are immediately usable to anyone at all used to either right clcking or the tab key.

On a slightly personal note to Semper - At first I thought you were just a troller/flame-baiter largely because of your seeming negativity and hard to understand difficulty with Ubuntu. Because you stuck it out and didn't resort to name calling et al I just thought I'd give you some props for being misunderstood and having the cojones to persevere. Keep it up and you too will likely find an alternative that while you may not see a need yet, one day, mark my words, microsoft will piss you off one too many times once to deeply to ever want to give them another dime and you will not be stuck like a slave.

Jimmy


----------



## enorbet2

PS I didn't mean to "short" the heated controversy over package management... well actually yes, I did, since it really just sin't all that important. They all work, more or less, and each has it's pros and cons. Point is, worry about that later. Get something or a few things running and pick what you like best. Let idiots fight holy wars.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
Well it seems our prayers may get answered as recently a number of fairly important games have been given the Linux treatment. That is to say they are natively running in Linux. "Eve Online" is a new SciFi based MMORPG that looks really good, is handled by Steam, has a 14 day trial downloadable client and, like many, is trying to cash in on and repeat "World of Warcraft" success. Could be big.
"Eternal Lands" doesn't have quite the glossy look as Eve but manages a near clone look to WoW and it, too, now has a Linux client. I'm not sure what to say about "Second Life" since it seems to be very controversial as to whether it's user base is real or hype, but apparently even if it is hype the company that makes it is in for the long haul determined to make it happen and part of that commitment is a new Linux client. "Runescape" is a viking warrior based MMORPG and is apparently new enough that it hasn't had time to show whether it is going to make it and in all fairness and honesty the first "M" for "massive" needs to refer not only to the maps but to the population of those maps too but in any case it is spanking new and offers the Linux client right from jump street.

Also the pro quality Firewall Builder (www.fwbuilder.com) has come out with support for windows, mac and linux , their free but potent firewall, for those power users who want the fullest control over the first line of defense within a home computer. It is also worthy of note that dslreports.com which has offered broadband (of all kinds not just dsl) support including internet speed testing, software for tweaking and benchmarking, and tons of high quality FAQs on how to get the most out of your broadband connection, is now fully compatible with Linux. The speed test has worked for a long time but the Unix/Linux tweak papers are fairly new and a button is now included for Linux when displaying results for public comparison.

Hopefully this is the beginning of a trend.


----------



## lattyware

Frankly, there are plenty of Linux firewalls out there - iptables is a powerful tool.

EVE Online isn't actually native, they just ship it with a version of Cedega (based on WINE) free.


----------



## legoman786

Hey guys... I finally got my dedicated Linux box.

But the problem is that its so old school that trying to run Ubuntu 8.04 Live CD is not working.

P3 650Mhz, 128MB RAM, needs a new CMOS battery, What can I run on this thing? I wanted to go Ubuntu, but it seems that it's not gonna work. Fedora will probably be the same thing... Maybe DSL?


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *legoman786* 
Hey guys... I finally got my dedicated Linux box.

But the problem is that its so old school that trying to run Ubuntu 8.04 Live CD is not working.

P3 650Mhz, 128MB RAM, needs a new CMOS battery, What can I run on this thing? I wanted to go Ubuntu, but it seems that it's not gonna work. Fedora will probably be the same thing... Maybe DSL?

dsl might be a little too cut down for your tastes. You could try Xubuntu, I'm not sure how much faster it would be.

If you feel up to the challenge, you could try Arch with LXDE. Arch isn't easy to set up (you literally get a terminal to begin with) - but the installation guide is good, and will hold your hand through the process. Plus, because it begins with nothing, it has no bloat, and so can run on very light systems.

If you don't want to take that route, Ubuntulite uses LXDE - and would apparently run on your hardware well enough.


----------



## legoman786

I'll try UL first and see how that goes, because I'm in DSL and the mouse doesn't work. lol

And I'm almost out of blank CDs.


----------



## error10

You should put it on that E6600, it'll run a whole lot nicer.


----------



## legoman786

Ok well Ubuntu Lite failed hardcore. A lot of install files are missing off of the install servers (go figure).

I'm gonna take a break and re try in a few hours.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Ok well Ubuntu Lite failed hardcore. A lot of install files are missing off of the install servers (go figure).

I'm gonna take a break and re try in a few hours.


Hrm... maybe a different distro might serve better? Most LXDE-based distros are going to be very light. Fluxbox-based stuff might be lighter, but LXDE retains a more traditional style.


----------



## Chipp

UbuntuLite is a dead project, but FluxBuntu is still alive and in development (albeit slowly moving).


----------



## biatchi

Slitaz is good


----------



## error10

You could try Fedora 9 Xfce (torrent).


----------



## biatchi

Even Xfce is going to struggle on 128,b of ram


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Even Xfce is going to struggle on 128,b of ram


Everything these days is going to struggle on 128MB of RAM. Time to build a new rig!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Everything these days is going to struggle on 128MB of RAM. Time to build a new rig!










Not true, LXDE or Fluxbox will run fine on a rig like that.


----------



## error10

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean it's not time to build a new rig!


----------



## biatchi

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Maybe so, but that doesn't mean it's not time to build a new rig!


Not meaning to be a douche or anything but did you even read the post that spawned these responses? It's clearly a back up/old rig and Legoman is looking for suggestions of what would run on it.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Hey guys... I finally got my dedicated Linux box.

But the problem is that its so old school that trying to run Ubuntu 8.04 Live CD is not working.

P3 650Mhz, 128MB RAM, needs a new CMOS battery, What can I run on this thing? I wanted to go Ubuntu, but it seems that it's not gonna work. Fedora will probably be the same thing... Maybe DSL?


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Not meaning to be a douche or anything but did you even read the post that spawned these responses? It's clearly a back up/old rig and Legoman is looking for suggestions of what would run on it.


So don't be a douche. Obviously I read the OP or I wouldn't have suggested any other lightweight Linux distributions (you apparently missed this).

I still say it's time to build a new rig.


----------



## biatchi

If by lightweight you meant Fedora with Xfce then we have vastly different opinions of what is lightweight


----------



## error10

Lightweight is getting a functional kernel, X and a window manager into less than 3MB. But that's not very useful by itself.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Hey guys... I finally got my dedicated Linux box.

But the problem is that its so old school that trying to run Ubuntu 8.04 Live CD is not working.

P3 650Mhz, 128MB RAM, needs a new CMOS battery, What can I run on this thing? I wanted to go Ubuntu, but it seems that it's not gonna work. Fedora will probably be the same thing... Maybe DSL?


XFCE Xubuntu would fly on that system.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *biatchi*


Even Xfce is going to struggle on 128,b of ram


I don't think so. My dad runs Xubuntu on his Pentium 2 450MHz, 96MB RAM system, and it runs very well.


----------



## biatchi

It may well run well but are you sure it isn't hitting swap all the time?

Ocnix64(Arch) running Xfce won't really run in 96mb of ram


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Everything these days is going to struggle on 128MB of RAM. Time to build a new rig!










Trolling for Dummies - Dr. error10, PhD in Forum Trolling.

On a serious note... My dad has got another lappy to give me. But this one needs some work. I need a new HSF and fan (both of which I found on eBay).

Meaning this ThinkPad will probably show up on the freebies section soon.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
It may well run well but are you sure it isn't hitting swap all the time?

Ocnix64(Arch) running Xfce won't really run in 96mb of ram

I don't know if it's using swap, but I don't care since it's running fast


----------



## William151515

ok i am atempting the challange, ubuntu 8.04 x86 is installing as i type lol
i admit i tried it before for like 10mins and got bored, and booted into windows, never restarted into linux, and eventually deleted it, and for some reason i keep installing and trying it but then deleting it after 5-10mins







, but this time i am going to try it for a few weeks, and get it all setup properly
and give it a real go, then give my opinion, but i never said that linux sucked (how ever i do think mac sucks) lol

will post back in a few weeks to how it all went









(install is finished, restarting into ubuntu now to setup everything)


----------



## gex80

I still cant get my damn sound card to work and it's been a week.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gex80* 
I still cant get my damn sound card to work and it's been a week.

Details please


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *biatchi* 
Details please

I think he's referring to this thread.


----------



## biatchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
I think he's referring to this thread.

Thanks


----------



## murderbymodem

I use Windows for gaming PCs, and Linux for non-gaming PCs.
(arch linux to be exact







)


----------



## legoman786

I'm getting Xubuntu for the said old school lappy that I have.

All I need now is a CMOS battery, and the normal battery for portability.


----------



## KloroFormd

I just thought you'd find it interesting that a female friend of mine took the challenge for a few months. She went back to XP for a few because her webcam wouldn't work, and now she's gonna go back to Ubuntu once again and plans to buy a new webcam.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *KloroFormd*


I just thought you'd find it interesting that a female friend of mine took the challenge for a few months. She went back to XP for a few because her webcam wouldn't work, and now she's gonna go back to Ubuntu once again and plans to buy a new webcam.










Cool. What IM client is she using? Pidgin doesn't support webcams, I believe, but Kopete and AMSN do.

That's presuming she uses the webcam with IM software.


----------



## KloroFormd

Her cam just wasn't supported through any drivers I could find. There was one driver that was supposed to support it, but the output was nothing but distortion and the cam wasn't detected 50% of the time by apps. I forgot the details on the cam or I'd tell you what kind it was.


----------



## retro41

I tried several versions on a spare hdd, but my ATi HD2900 but no drivers worked... stuck at it but got annoyed and just wiped the hdd and stuck it back in its box


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mcandrew*


I tried several versions on a spare hdd, but my ATi HD2900 but no drivers worked... stuck at it but got annoyed and just wiped the hdd and stuck it back in its box


Might want to try again soon - the ATI drivers are progressing exponentially - read up a little on it, ATI are really pushing their new driver progress, it's great.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *legoman786* 
I'm getting Xubuntu for the said old school lappy that I have.

All I need now is a CMOS battery, and the normal battery for portability.

http://www.overclock.net/freebies/40...teries-x4.html


----------



## murderbymodem

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Might want to try again soon - the ATI drivers are progressing exponentially - read up a little on it, ATI are really pushing their new driver progress, it's great.









I'm glad to hear it, I've gotten so tired of hearing people say Nvidia cards work better with linux, I hear enough about how they fold better, so its nice to see them doing some work on the linux drivers


----------



## bomfunk

Well, I had Ubuntu 8.04 on my lappy for a few months, and also dualbooting XP & Ubuntu on a desktop. So lemme evaluate (yea I know, nobody is going to even read this, but WTH):|

*PROS:*
-Package Management (I find simply ticking a program I want to install and hitting "Apply" much more convenient than having to download the installers and having my desktop cluttered with "Setup.exe"s and "blah blah.MSI"s,.

-YouTube d'loader for command line rules so hard

-No viruses & malware (well I know there are some, but much more solid, stable & secure kernel than NT in general)

-Compiz. That's all that needs to be said. Pure win.

-Multiple desktops

-No crashes & other weird glitches of Windows

-KDE looks so much cooler than Windows (IMO Gnome is lame. I morphed Ubuntu into Kubuntu later on).

-Loads up faster than XP (XP actually got into the login screen a little faster than Ubuntu on the same machine, but XP took like 3 minutes to load my profile up...Ubuntu beat it by 2:54 or so)

-Free, dammit (I'm cheap)!

-Compiz Fusion (you can't debate that)

-Cooler screen savers

-Compiz

-Cheese (best webcam software I seen so far, and came default w/Ubuntu)

-Compiz Fusion

*CONS:*

-IMO all media players for Linux suck fat ones (WMP fan) (tried VLC, Amarok, and some others too but I forget the names...).

-Lack of drivers for certain devices (had to get MadWifi installed, also my lappy's powersaving features didn't work which is why switched back to Vista - need the battery life)

-I couldn't get background music in Battle for Wesnoth to work (fail) also, some games were really glitchy on my lappy... I'll just blame Intel GMA, since most work fine in my desktop with a 8500GT.

-Firefox crashed often when I was on youtube (alright, I said no crashes, but at least it just went away rather than bringing on an "Illegal Operation" and BSOD show)

-Repositories sometimes out-of-date, and I found installing software not in the repos a huge pain in the backside

-Sometimes Ubuntu was actually slower, even though generally supposed to perform faster than Windows (according to what I've been hearing) my lappy sometimes choked, no, suffocated under Ubuntu...

-OpenOffice was kinda tiring to use (don't get me wrong, it's good, but some tings just...argh)... prefer MS Office

-Lack of games & professional-level software (couldn't find a MS Publisher equivalent







also, lack of certain programming stuff I'd like)

-Found adjusting mouse a lot harder than in Windows... well, actually the mouse part was easy, but getting the trackpad to work the way I wanted was a nightmare

-Looks sorta "cheap" (well, that goes for GNOME only, KDE is awesome!)


----------



## lattyware

I'll adress a few cons.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bomfunk* 
*CONS:*

-IMO all media players for Linux suck fat ones (WMP fan) (tried VLC, Amarok, and some others too but I forget the names...).

Try SMplayer - it's perfect for video. I like Amarok for audio, personally, I can't say I can see anything WMP has over Amarok for audio.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bomfunk* 
-Repositories sometimes out-of-date, and I found installing software not in the repos a huge pain in the backside

-Sometimes Ubuntu was actually slower, even though generally supposed to perform faster than Windows (according to what I've been hearing) my lappy sometimes choked, no, suffocated under Ubuntu...

Ubuntu is a bit slower and more bloated than one would like, and the repos do get a little behind due to the number of apps in them. Why I love Arch, really cutting edge distro, and the AUR is awesome, but not something for people who dislike a command line, as you'll need to do a lot with one to set it up.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bomfunk* 
-Lack of games & professional-level software (couldn't find a MS Publisher equivalent







also, lack of certain programming stuff I'd like)

Programming stuff? Like? As a programmer, I have *never* not had *exactly* what I wanted under Linux.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bomfunk* 
-Looks sorta "cheap" (well, that goes for GNOME only, KDE is awesome!)

KDE4 looks awesome, KDE3 looks rubbish, although that's my opinion. The great thing is you have the choice.


----------



## bomfunk

Quote:



I can't say I can see anything WMP has over Amarok for audio.


Either I'm dumb or just didn't have time to properly look around, but I couldn't find the equalizer in Amarok. For that matter, VLCMP is the only player for Linux in which I've seen an EQ.

Quote:



Programming stuff? Like? As a programmer, I have never not had exactly what I wanted under Linux.


It must be that I just can't find the stuff.

I haven't found compilers/IDEs for _any language except_
-Delphi/Pascal (Lazarus; but the bloody thing wouldn't even work. Started nagging about some kinda source directories (FDM) missing or something...)
-...and that was it. I tried some like Geany (Geanie?) but I never figured out how to do anything with it. Also, I got...ummm... KDevelop? Well some kinda C++ supposed-to-be compiler+IDE but I never got it to do anything I wanted, either.

I'm in no doubt the tools are out there, but I'm a noob when it comes to Linux so chances are I just didn't find the stuff...

But since you're into programming, can suggest any good compilers w/IDEs (I want easy code editors and stuff, hate the old notepad+commanlinde compiler way of doing stuff) for any or all following languages:

-C++
-(Visual) Basic?
-Delphi/Pascal (I reckon Lazarus is my only choice, but I never know...)
-Also, I never figured out how to install Java development kits.

I'm probably also picking up Python, I'll see if it suits my needs...


----------



## error10

So many issues so I'm just going to skip the quoting.

I use MPlayer for video. For KDE, get KPlayer (the same thing with a KDE frontend). It's in the repositories starting with Hardy. Much of this depends on your codecs. Make sure you have ffmpeg and xvidcore installed (if you don't, they should be picked up when you install KPlayer).

Power savings: Laptop mode requires a bit of configuration, and you have to install the laptop-mode-tools package. Also install powertop and run it (sudo powertop) to see what's eating all your power when you're on battery. It'll suggest configuration changes you can make to reduce power consumption.

The Intel GMA graphics chip is slightly less powerful than the "Still Legendary" FX 5500 video card I have in my rig right now. I can't play video in any program with Compiz running. (Which is why a new GPU is on my shopping list.)

Adobe Flash Player is nice but buggy as hail. I'd bet that accounts for 95% of Firefox crashes. What's worse is that Flash 10 just came out and it's even MORE buggy. Blame this one on Adobe. And yell at them for STILL not having 64-bit support.

Software in the repositories being far behind the latest releases is actually quite common with Debian-based distributions. This is usually intentional on the part of the distro builders. (LTS means that for the most part they freeze everything at one version, good or bad.) It's one of the reasons I won't use Debian, Ubuntu, or any related distro. For Ubuntu, at least, you can work around this by enabling backports.

If you want an IDE for development, try Eclipse. It has almost everything you asked for.


----------



## lattyware

I highly reccomend SMPlayer over KMplayer - SMPlayer has a lot of really nice features.

And as to an IDE, I hate Eclipse - Java is too bloated and heavy. I use KDevelop for C++ - I find it great, for everything else (Python/Web Dev) I use the humble gedit. Frankly, where you are not compiling, code highlighting is all I want.


----------



## error10

Some people like bloated and heavy.


----------



## thiussat

Amarok's equalizer is easy to find (you must not have looked very hard). Top of screen, click "Tools" and there is equalizer. At any rate, I think Amarok is much better than any Windows audio player I have used, though I do hear that Winamp is pretty good these days.

For video media, all of the players are gonna be front-ends for Gstreamer or Xine. The only difference will be some minor differences in options each player provides. I personally like SMplayer, but KMplayer and Kaffeine are adequate too. But, again, every player is only as good as the codecs you have installed.

As for development, I think Linux is second to none inasmuch as the options for different IDE's and languages. If you're going to be scripting or using interpreted languages, then a good text editor is all that is needed. I use Kwrite when I get the need for some Python scripting. Of course there are some pretty advanced Python IDE's available (I think one is called "Eric" or something similar).


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
For the person that loves KDE but finds OpenOffice lacking, why not use KOffice? The boys at KDE are on the fast track IMO.

Media Players - For basic and windowsy try XMMS. It's basically a clone of Winamp so immediately recognizable.

Though Amarok is prettier it's worth it to try Aqualung as it is much more sophisticated sonically. It employs by default LADSPA plugins which are similar to VST plugins for doze so it has numerous cool signal processors - killer EQ, Tube Warmer, and many others (some thousands are available) which means you can try out processors on stuff you create w/o comitting. If you like it fire up Audacity.

Recording - DAW functionality is growing by leaps and bounds. Linux may soon become a truly serious contender for pro recording largely due to the basic advantages of Linux combined with a rapidly improving and eminently professional Ardour.
Jimmy


----------



## bomfunk

Thanks everyone, rep added, but I have a few questions now (should I have created a new thread? meh):

1. Is there a "global" equalizer for Linux - I mean one that would affect all sound output. I hate it when the sound from YouTube videos & such sounds like, well, it was played through a phone or something. Only being able to EQ

2.

Quote:

Power savings: Laptop mode requires a bit of configuration, and you have to install the laptop-mode-tools package. Also install powertop and run it (sudo powertop) to see what's eating all your power when you're on battery. It'll suggest configuration changes you can make to reduce power consumption.
How guaranteed is this to work? I couldn't get the backlight adjustment working at all, would this fix it (lappy is Presario C700)?

3. Is there any way to get the wireless button/light to work? If not, how can I turn the WiFi adapter off in Linux (assuming I'm using MadWifi drivers for my Atheros card)?

I might well install Linux on my lappy again... maybe Sabayon this time... any thoughs? (I really liked the looks of Sabayon)


----------



## error10

iwconfig ath0 txpower off will kill the radio. I don't know about your wireless button and light. You didn't specify what laptop you have.


----------



## bomfunk

Quote:

You didn't specify what laptop you have.
*hint*

Quote:

would this fix it (lappy is *Presario C700*)?










C731TU to be more specific...

But tango yankee for that... and you're sure that it will actually kill it, as in it will be powered down and won't consume any electricity?


----------



## error10

Yes, it really will kill the radio.

iwconfig ath0 txpower on will turn it back on.

As for your laptop brightness, it's a known issue. Usually this type of issue is caused by the manufacturer not properly designing their product to meet standards like ACPI.

If you're feeling REALLY ambitious you could attempt to fix the laptop's firmware, though this isn't for the faint of heart or those not intimately familiar with the command line. It's not like flashing a BIOS...


----------



## Madmaximus

I know nothing about Linux but after my experience last night with FarCry 2 and Ubisoft I may never play another game. I am going to take your challenge but I would like to know a few things if you have the time to answer them.

1. I don't have internet at my home and never will have (personal choice) will this affect my Linux experience? (I have access at friends house, and work for checking email, and downloading files or programs I may need for Linux)

2. Are there any games at all for Linux and if so where do I find them? (I spend about 90% of my free time playing PC Games like Crisis, Oblivion (my personal favorite), Never Winter Nights 1 & 2, The Sims 2, (I hope they don't do to the Sims 3 what Ubisoft did to Far Cry 2 or I may explode.), Assins Creed, Diablo II that's my fav's and these games get all most all of my free time.)

3. Can I make MSword docs on Linux. And transfer them back and forth from work to home (running Office 2003 at work and home currently)

4. Can you run Visual Studio 6 or Visual Studio.net on Linux if not what alternitives are there and do they use a GUI I realy like those, command line stuff is so boring I need visual stimilation (I may start programming all the time instead of playing games due to those sorry good for nothings at Ubisoft, in fact I hope thier profit margins drop way down because of what they have done stupid heads. I have several books on game programming with C++ and Visual Basic that I never got around to using much.)

5. I like to watch movies (DVD's) and listen to music on my computer sometimes is this possiable with Linux?

6. Can I still overclock and run benchmarks like 3DMark03, 05, & 06? (If I am not Gaming I am doing this. (come to think of it I do this a lot too maybe I don't spend as much time gaming as I stated earlier.))

7. Can I still run my sata drives in raid 0?

If you guys could help me out with these questions I may be Linux by Saturday.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
1. I don't have internet at my home and never will have (personal choice) will this affect my Linux experience? (I have access at friends house, and work for checking email, and downloading files or programs I may need for Linux)

You'll always have to go somewhere else to update the system and download programs. Other than that, no.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
2. Are there any games at all for Linux and if so where do I find them? (I spend about 90% of my free time playing PC Games like Crisis, Oblivion (my personal favorite), Never Winter Nights 1 & 2, The Sims 2, (I hope they don't do to the Sims 3 what Ubisoft did to Far Cry 2 or I may explode.), Assins Creed, Diablo II that's my fav's and these games get all most all of my free time.)

There are some games for Linux... The good ones are online games, though. You can find them in the package manager (which means online download).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
3. Can I make MSword docs on Linux. And transfer them back and forth from work to home (running Office 2003 at work and home currently)

Certainly. OpenOffice.org allows you to save and open MSO files. You can even choose for it to save to MSO format by default.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
4. Can you run Visual Studio 6 or Visual Studio.net on Linux if not what alternitives are there and do they use a GUI I realy like those, command line stuff is so boring I need visual stimilation (I may start programming all the time instead of playing games due to those sorry good for nothings at Ubisoft, in fact I hope thier profit margins drop way down because of what they have done stupid heads. I have several books on game programming with C++ and Visual Basic that I never got around to using much.)

I'm not too sure about programming in Linux. There's the Eclipse IDE. I've used that once or twice and thought it was ok. Personally, I like to code in a text editor and compile with gcc or g++.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
5. I like to watch movies (DVD's) and listen to music on my computer sometimes is this possiable with Linux?

Sure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
6. Can I still overclock and run benchmarks like 3DMark03, 05, & 06? (If I am not Gaming I am doing this. (come to think of it I do this a lot too maybe I don't spend as much time gaming as I stated earlier.))

3D mark and pc mark and those benchmarks probably won't work.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
7. Can I still run my sata drives in raid 0?

The only Linux distro that supports RAID out of the box is Fedora (maybe Suse, too; I forget). Other distros are going to require manual configuration to support RAID. I hear it's easy, but I've never done it before.


----------



## Madmaximus

Quote:

You'll always have to go somewhere else to update the system and download programs. Other than that, no.
Does this mean I will have to take my computer to the net or can I download apps and updates and transport them via protable drive back to the house?


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
Does this mean I will have to take my computer to the net or can I download apps and updates and transport them via protable drive back to the house?

You CAN download apps and transport them, but if there's any dependencies that you forget to download it won't work. It makes things much easier to have an internet connection because the package manager downloads and installs everything you need that you don't have for the program to run too.

Comparing this to Windows, you can think of it like trying to run a .NET program without .NET installed. You gotta have them dependencies.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
Does this mean I will have to take my computer to the net or can I download apps and updates and transport them via protable drive back to the house?

Like the guy above said, its more difficult using the latter method. If you're gonna use a package manager, you'll need to connect the computer to the internet. If you want to download .rpms and .debs and transfer them with a USB drive, you can do that, but the dependencies (software that the program requires in order to run) won't be included. So you'll try to install using those, and then the installer will tell you, "You need to get these .rpm or .deb dependencies before I can install this program:"

Having internet will make it much, much easier.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
Does this mean I will have to take my computer to the net or can I download apps and updates and transport them via protable drive back to the house?

Either is possible, but doing the latter is harder as you can't use a package manager to do it. You'd have to browse the repos manually and find the .deb packages (presuming something debian-based like Ubuntu, if not, then rpms, etc...).

You can't run visual studio under Linux, but IDEs is where Linux can really go places. Remember the people developing Linux are all programmers, so making good IDEs is something they tend to go for. I use Kdevelop for big projects, and gedit (the built in text editor, has all the features like code highlighting) for simpler stuff. I highly reccomend Python and C++ as languages of choice. VB is somewhat less useful as it's M$'s proprietry platform, but you could look into mono under Linux, which is somewhat like wine for .net.

As to benchmarks, you might want to check out the Phoronix Test Suite.


----------



## Madmaximus

First I want to thank you guys for your help and advice.

I have been looking around the net for some of the things you guys have been talking about and found win4lin and wine.

will these allow me to run some of my games and maybe visual studio?


----------



## timw4mail

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
First I want to thank you guys for your help and advice.

I have been looking around the net for some of the things you guys have been talking about and found win4lin and wine.

will these allow me to run some of my games and maybe visual studio?

Yes, but they are likely to crash more, and be more unstable in general.


----------



## Madmaximus

It seems that a guy just can't compute with out it.

Far Cry 2 won't even install with out it. If I give up gaming and switch to linux and spend all my time programming I will still need internet.

As for switchng to linux I haven't figured out just what I would use it for. My every day tasks consist of using Quickbooks Pro, Microsoft Office, LOGO's Bible Software, occasional programing and lots of gaming and playing around with overclock settings and running benchmark tools. When I get internet at the house the only tasks that will be added is check email (I do that at work now), browse for computer parts on newegg (I do this at lunch break and at sisters house now), and online games (currently I don't do this.)

I am curious and may set up a dual boot just to play around with linux and see what it is about, but other wise I can't see where it would benefit me.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Madmaximus*


As for switchng to linux I haven't figured out just what I would use it for. My every day tasks consist of using Quickbooks Pro, Microsoft Office, LOGO's Bible Software, occasional programing and lots of gaming and playing around with overclock settings and running benchmark tools. When I get internet at the house the only tasks that will be added is check email (I do that at work now), browse for computer parts on newegg (I do this at lunch break and at sisters house now), and online games (currently I don't do this.)

I am curious and may set up a dual boot just to play around with linux and see what it is about, but other wise I can't see where it would benefit me.


I used to think like that. Infact when i first dual-booted i couldn't figure out how to install programs in ubuntu. But I found that in the repositories (where all the programs are kept on the internet) there were free (and in some cases better) alternatives to the programs i thought i needed windows for. Obviously there are some windows applications that will always be necessary but i think you will find the vast majority of stuff can be done with linux too if you give it a try.

Only iffy spot is gaming, but we're getting over that.


----------



## error10

Well there are two problems here.

The first is that, while the installed Linux user base is growing, a lot of hardware manufacturers aren't putting out drivers which are comparable to the Windows versions. As the user base has grown, though, they are improving. Some of the manufacturers. (A few actually put out superior drivers on Linux, but I digress.)

Personally I won't (knowingly) buy hardware that doesn't already have Linux support in the kernel, an easily available driver or at least cooperation in driver development from the manufacturer. If I somehow wind up with some, I replace it.

The second problem is the X Window System. It's been not too dissimilar to its current form for over two decades. That's a LOT of cruft, old crappy APIs, performance problems, I could go on but I won't. Vastly superior windowing systems have been developed -- for Unix! -- between then and now, but somehow the mediocre product got all the market share.

Kind of like Microsoft Windows. And just like Windows, it's virtually impossible to cut out old cruft without annoying somebody whose program needs it. This is a problem without an easy solution.


----------



## enorbet2

Hello
I'd like to reply to/expand on these cons for your consideration.

*CONS:*

<-IMO all media players for Linux suck fat ones (WMP fan) (tried VLC, <Amarok, and some others too but I forget the names...).

I strongly suspect this affinity for WMP is just force of habit from long usage because the problems with WMP grow w/ every update which is just the opposite for *nix based players. With the sole exception of the newest .wmv format *nix players, and especially VLC which is available for multiple platforms and designed for streaming over networks (windows media player originated before Redmond got truly connected) *nix players are lighter weight and therefore faster and an easier environment upon which to learn something new if for no other reason than 1)little or no DRM issues, and less useless fluff to wade through, plus VLC plays more formats including for example Flash Video formats like those downloaded from YouTube and similar sites. Variations of MPlayer and Xine are also wothwhile video capable players with far more configurability and customization beyond mere skins. I don't wish to seem overly long on just video/media players but in this case because of the high likelihood of long term usage (habit) I hope to show at least there is a bonus or two as reward for sticking with it beyond foiling WMP's privacy invasion.

<-Lack of drivers for certain devices (had to get MadWifi installed, also my <lappy's powersaving features didn't work which is why switched back to Vista <- need the battery life)

Yes drivers can be an issue but that situation is getting better and knowledgeable purchasing (research) goes a long way. It is worthy of note that Windows wouldn't even allow CPU idling w/o a 3rd party app until Win2000/XP wheras CPU idling was in Linux almost from it's inception, and if we include Unix as it's source, a full decade before that. So while it takes either downloading a power saving kernel or "rolling yer own" it is do-able and to a degree more customizable than with doze. Plus if you learn to roll your own you are armed to truly optimize for speed and performance, small size, low latancy, whatever. Massive permutations possible.

<-I couldn't get background music in Battle for Wesnoth to work (fail) also, <some games were really glitchy on my lappy... I'll just blame Intel GMA, <since most work fine in my desktop with a 8500GT.

I'm Confused. Sound worked in general and only background didn't? Perhaps the background music is midi based and you don't have that configured? Wow! Yeah I'd bet unaccelerated video is real glitchy. Yeeechh!

<-Firefox crashed often when I was on youtube (alright, I said no crashes, <but at least it just went away rather than bringing on an "Illegal Operation" <and BSOD show)

This brings up a MAJOR advantage in the fundamental design of *nix over doze. Apps are essentially standalone in Linux so when an app crashes it doesn't bring down the whole OpSys. Windows puts all their eggs in one basket, which is why every application deposits some file(s) in the Windows folder and likely a few in Documents and Settings. Not only does this make the whole OpSys vulnerable but if you fresh install Windows, and even some "repair" installs, you have to reinstall most applications to get those files back in those other locations. One can backup one's $HOME directory, add it to a fresh install or theoretically any flavor of Linux and in many cases with nothing more than linking to the executable in a folder within $PATH have all your personal apps (that were installed from within $HOME) complete with personal configs all working. It's also a stroll in the park to put $HOME and even the "/usr" folder (where user application's executables are kept) on their own separate partitions making backup and restore easier, with also reduced vulnerability due to spreading the risk. Note: Backups, restores, reinstalls are obviously not simplistic so while I have simplified here for space, the bottom line is it is possible and routinely done in Linux and not at all in doze.

<-Repositories sometimes out-of-date, and I found installing software not in <the repos a huge pain in the backside

Most distros have forums which recommend user kept repositories as well as official sites at 2 or 3 levels of risk, where the bleeding edge is just a little behind subversion. Rsync can make keeping them updated a breeze.

<-Sometimes Ubuntu was actually slower, even though generally supposed to <perform faster than Windows (according to what I've been hearing) my <lappy sometimes choked, no, suffocated under Ubuntu...

Most serious operating systems set defaults to a low common denominator, for compatibility sake, which means they need tweaking if you have more modern hardware. It also means you CAN! There are lots of tuning tricks and as many webpages touting them. This is why ultra lightweight distros, even LiveCD's w/ the same or similar kernel version can run really fast, faster than anyother moderately mainstream OpSys out there and even on older hardware. Just try Puppy Linux LiveCD some time to see.

<-OpenOffice was kinda tiring to use (don't get me wrong, it's good, but some <tings just...argh)... prefer MS Office

I, too, take issue with OpenOffice but there are at least 2 or 3 other alternatives out there. Just as Foxit Reader in windows kicks Adobe's ass in performance with PDF's, different alternatives run and look differently. KOffice is much closer to MS Office if that's what you're hoping for, especially KWord.

-Lack of games & professional-level software (couldn't find a MS Publisher equivalent







also, lack of certain programming stuff I'd like)

While there actually are some games that run better on Linux than in windows, they are few and without Wine, VMWare, or Cedega or the like games are likely to continue to be a problem partly because game publishers are scared to death of Linux since it was created by hackers. They see little or no revenue from Linux users because the OpSys is rather pirate friendly, with very limited DRM and easy means to subvert and bypass what exists. Tradeoff? However MS Publisher (and I quote right from Wikipedia) IS ENTRY LEVEL publishing software. It is like kindergarten compared to college when you look at the tools available for Linux at little or no cost. While the real pro gear doesn't come packaged in as polished and even in some cases as easy to use as expensive stuff like DreamWeaver, ColdFusion, and the thousand dollar Adobe suites, nevertheless just as Apache is the number one server software (and Open Source) MySQL though maybe not number 1, is up in the top 5 for db software, and PHP along with Perl and Python are extremely professional and there are good gui front ends these days for web development like BlueFish and QuantaPlus (some with templates for getting started for newbies) and Gimp has to be mentioned because it just keeps getting better and there is even a mod available so it lays out and menues more like Photoshop. There are way too many top notch development tools to mention. Basically if there's even an imagined problem, somebody has built a shortcut app or at least a script to handle it. Or, if you learn how, you can build or modify Open Source ad infinitum.

-Found adjusting mouse a lot harder than in Windows... well, actually the mouse part was easy, but getting the trackpad to work the way I wanted was a nightmare

There are so many hidden applications in Linux I'm pretty sure you can find one that is a reasonable parallel for adjusting your mouse. Granted, some of the deeper and more sensitive stuff is best done in the xconfig file, but there are gui's out there for all the tab key impaired.

<-Looks sorta "cheap" (well, that goes for GNOME only, KDE is awesome!)

BTW I think you mean by defaults. There are some amazing websites out there with screenshots of just jaw-dropping desktops made out of window managers you just won't believe. I've seen guys take Blackbox and somehow mix applets, icons, and menues from WindowMaker, Enlightenment, and KDE that will just stun you both in beauty and function. That is the ultimate value and challenge of Linux - If you can imagine it, likely you can make it happen. It's all in learning how and there is lots of help out there. Forums like this one, but more specific to your distro and especially IRC channels can grow you really fast.

TANSTAAFL Dude


----------



## enorbet2

Just a quick one here. I'm pretty sure "alsaequal"

http://freshmeat.net/projects/alsaequal/

works globally since it can be called as a plugin to just about any application including the system mixer. There are some complications though that require a little research in that there are quite a few sound system daemons (arts, esound, alsa, oss, etc) and a few run at the same time, or can, more or less compatibly on some systems. For example many gaming sound problems can be solved by killing "artsd", the "arts" daemon (server). I have had systems where launching XMMS and pausing or stopping the track left the volume and graphic EQ functional more or less globally. I have also had that not work. It was never important enough to me to figure out why, but it is worth knowing and maybe even trying on your system.

hope this helps some
Jimmy


----------



## error10

There's something to that "professional" aspect. I first got into Linux because I was at college and the only way to run UNIX was to be a junior or senior in CS and get access to the high-end DEC workstations. Until the day I heard about this UNIX you could install on a PC from floppy disks! So I bought a box of a 100 and downloaded it. I wound up with this "Linux" thing and I was hooked ever since.


----------



## dlee7283

Everytime I get aggrivated with Windows I always go to distrowatch and look at the Linux apps. Similiar to those who get angry at their wives and stare at the young 21 year olds imagining the new fresh possibilities(Linux).

But I always come back to the Windows(Wife) because we have had so many good times together, I know her well and she holds my taste in so many things (Games,Music,Media Encoding).

So please dont make the debate of Tux Racer and OpenArena as acceptable games to make me wanna switch over.Or XMMS, when Winamp is perfect as it is.


----------



## error10

I don't get it. Did you marry Windows?!


----------



## William151515

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


I don't get it. Did you marry Windows?!


if only i could it would be a $400 AUD wedding though then it owns your life
just kidding


----------



## enorbet2

You know DLee, I too get aggravated with windows and while it's true that Win95/98 aggravated me more than XP, even as good as XP is it has had me yanking at my hair numerous times.
The really interesting thing is that I rarely ever have been aggravated with in over 10 years of use. Once I settled on Slackware aggravation with the system became even rarer. Why? Because Linux, and especially the more "from scratch" variety, is so configurable and customizable that it is exactly what I have made it. So any aggravation I might feel is directed to myself since it is what I have made it. The best part is that it has been extremely rare in the entire 8 years I've been using Slack I have had cause to be aggravated with myself. In fact often I find myself smiling and saying "Damn! I fsckin LOVE Linux!" because it is so damned sensible and solid. And BTW DLee exactly why are you posting here if you love your wife so much?


----------



## usapatriot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Choggs396* 
If I have to boot into Windows for games, I'll be in Windows for most of the time I'm using my computer anyway. The rest? Emails, OCN, and typing papers for school using MS Word. Why would I switch to Linux for that?

No offense, and I'm not trying to flame, but Vista works great for what I do and the majority of what others do. So I think I'll stick with a single OS that does everything I need.

I'm sorry but no version of Linux has the support and compatibility that I need for the programs that I use. Sure I could spend a month coding and compiling my own drivers (which I would need to learn to do in the first place) but I just don't have the time or the will to spend that much time to get something working on a free OS, I'd just much rather pay the $90-$100 and get an OS with which almost everything works flawlessly. And if you know what you are doing you can tweak and customize Windows to your exact liking.

Linux is just not worth it IMO.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *usapatriot*


I'm sorry but no version of Linux has the support and compatibility that I need for the programs that I use. Sure I could spend a month coding and compiling my own drivers (which I would need to learn to do in the first place) but I just don't have the time or the will to spend that much time to get something working on a free OS, I'd just much rather pay the $90-$100 and get an OS with which almost everything works flawlessly. And if you know what you are doing you can tweak and customize Windows to your exact liking.

Linux is just not worth it IMO.


Spoken like someone who hasn't tried Lattyware's Linux Challenge!

I got an OS with which almost everything works flawlessly for FREE. And better, the OS doesn't condescend and treat me like a noob even after I know what I'm doing. That $90-$100 OS never fails to frustrate me.

And why would you have to code your own drivers? Did you design and build your own RAID controller from scratch or something instead of just buying one like everyone else?

Windows is just not worth it IMO. (See sig.)


----------



## RSXHiTMAN

its not hard to get a legit windows versions, i mean i have legit serial stickers all over the place i dont even use them, i dont think price is really a big factor...you guys upgrade left and right, 4870x2s and all that, most of you are on quads, upgrading consistently, then mentioning the "price" of windows...its kinda ironic, look at the amount you spent on your pc, only if you were running a really lightweight, low wattage machine, with the purpose of optimization, your linux "free" argument would work, but you guys are sitting on up to date power sucking beasts, the price argument isnt working

cliffs:
its time consuming to learn a new OS when windows can already do everything for you, your using and learning linux more of as a hobby, rather than practical use, unless required by your employer...


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RSXHiTMAN* 
its not hard to get a legit windows versions, i mean i have legit serial stickers all over the place i dont even use them, i dont think price is really a big factor...you guys upgrade left and right, 4870x2s and all that, most of you are on quads, upgrading consistently, then mentioning the "price" of windows...its kinda ironic, look at the amount you spent on your pc, only if you were running a really lightweight, low wattage machine, with the purpose of optimization, your linux "free" argument would work, but you guys are sitting on up to date power sucking beasts, the price argument isnt working

cliffs:
its time consuming to learn a new OS when windows can already do everything for you, your using and learning linux more of as a hobby, rather than practical use, unless required by your employer...

'Learning Linux'? Using Linux is common sense if you've ever used a GUI before. It doesn't take much getting used to, a weeks usage for a better OS for the rest of your life? Worth it. Of course, Ignorance is bliss.

And I would pay for Linux, being free (as in money) is just a bonus.


----------



## enorbet2

Besides the many arguments for Linux, there are bigger fish to fry when it comes down to what side you stand up for. The biggest fish hails back to "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" days making the case for Open Source software, including but not limited to the OpSys. The major opponents of Open Source back then, not on a philosophical but rather a practical level, stated that they believed "too many cooks spoiled the stew". They meant that just as one sure way to stop or ruin a thing was to assign it to a committee. Happily that has not turned out to be the case with Open Source. Besides all the commonly known and popular projects like FireFox, PHP, MySQL etc etc there are lesser known projects that are of professional quality and often will substitute for applications and/or suites costing thousands of dollars. I bring this up because of the recent trend here towards cost when it is not just the OS (even if one can actually find windows for anywhere near only $100).

Some examples are professional audio (and video is coming along to with such apps as KDEnLive) with suites like Jack, Hydrogen, Audacity and the awesome Ardour. Niche interests elsewhere are served such as in Astronomy. While KStars is so damned good it can actually automate some telescopes to locate and track in real time, such apps as Stellarium and Celestia will drop your collective jaws. Here's a cool link for a review

http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/...are?page=0%2C1

Incidentally you will see that they are available for Doze and Apple as well as Linux but don't forget w/o the whole gamut of free, both as in beer and speech, including the OpSys - Linux and BSD - many of these projects would simply be impossible. I, for one, think it is pretty cool that budding musicians, recording engineers, astronomers, biologists, and other would-be scientists can outfit a computer now, for free, what would've cost tens of thousands of dollars without the Open Source movement. So who you gonna "vote for"? The Cathedral? or the Bazaar? Slave masters or libertarians?


----------



## theCanadian

This is what I did to my linux installation CD's. I didn't want anyone to go through what I did.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *theCanadian*


This is what I did to my linux installation CD's. I didn't want anyone to go through what I did.


Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the thread.


----------



## -iceblade^

Quote:



Originally Posted by *dlee7283*


Everytime I get aggrivated with Windows I always go to distrowatch and look at the Linux apps. Similiar to those who get angry at their wives and stare at the young 21 year olds imagining the new fresh possibilities(Linux).

But I always come back to the Windows(Wife) because we have had so many good times together, I know her well and she holds my taste in so many things (Games,Music,Media Encoding).

So please dont make the debate of Tux Racer and OpenArena as acceptable games to make me wanna switch over.Or XMMS, when Winamp is perfect as it is.


games i'll agree with as being a major staying factor for windows, but from there i tend to part ways.

well, games and ATi drivers.

anyways, i'm finding (as a longtime WMP fan) that Rhythmbox is a lot better and more intuitive, and that's just the tip of the iceberg as there is Exaile, Amarok, etc. in terms of Videos, there are the same bevy of options. the video player i swear by on Windows, VLC, is sitting here in Linux on my PC, and if i decide to switch i have Mplayer, Totem, and Realplayer as alternatives. you see, that is what is so fun about Linux - there is CHOICE. i know, there is in windows but i highly doubt it is as simple as going to add/remove, entering a root password, searching, and installing. don't like the DE?, strip it out and switch. don't like this app? find another. and it is so easy to find applications thanks to the repositories. not to mention they are always up to date thanks to package management... My heart lies in gaming, for certain, and i will continue to spend a lot of time with Windows, but for the simple things, i don't need to stay in windows, and that makes my windows install so much more managed, optimised, streamlined, and stable.

i feel wrong watching movies in Windows now, lol...


----------



## error10

Windows Media Player is one of the big things that convinced me Microsoft was going the wrong way and would eventually fail. It just keeps getting worse and worse with every release.


----------



## RSXHiTMAN

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


'Learning Linux'? Using Linux is common sense if you've ever used a GUI before. It doesn't take much getting used to, a weeks usage for a better OS for the rest of your life? Worth it. Of course, Ignorance is bliss.

And I would pay for Linux, being free (as in money) is just a bonus.


LOl right, because having to take 15 minutes just to install a proper graphics driver alone is "common sense", then worrying about how to get your usb adapter wifi adapter online, lol "gui", dont worry if it was "common sense" more people wouldve used it, apparently this thread disagrees with you, dont tell me ignorance ive used several distros....theres nothing automated about linux


----------



## Higgins

I tried it (Not because of this thread)

and i now have Ubuntu 8.10 + compiz-fusion running on my laptop. I was sold as soon as the first boot revealed that everything automatically installed and worked. My wireless card, ethernet, video, quick launch buttons, trackpad.. everything needed 0 initial configuration.

I have since heavily tweaked the GUI and played around with transparencies and panels a little bit.. discovered workspaces, and was the center of attention in english class when people heard i was running linux haha

I have Windows MCE running in virtualbox incase i need it, but i will probably keep my laptop running linux from now on.. it cant play games so whats the point of windows?

Oh and the one-stop-shop add/remove program made me change my pants the other day too


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RSXHiTMAN*


LOl right, because having to take 15 minutes just to install a proper graphics driver alone is "common sense", then worrying about how to get your usb adapter wifi adapter online, lol "gui", dont worry if it was "common sense" more people wouldve used it, apparently this thread disagrees with you, dont tell me ignorance ive used several distros....theres nothing automated about linux


Now that comes dangerously close to trolling.

First, you're blaming your wireless driver problems on Linux when the actual cause is the chipset manufacturers. A different wireless stick would have worked out of the box with zero configuration.

Second, you're blaming your video driver problems on, well, I don't know what. But I can tell you I've spent MUCH more time installing Windows drivers than I have ever had to spend on Linux.

And I've lost count of the number of times some Windows driver crapped out and there was nothing you could do but search through forums for hours on end until finally finding some obscure sequence of dead chicken waving that fixes it.. for a while. On Linux you can actually e-mail the person who wrote the driver! I've never seen a Windows driver where you can do that.

Finally, so you had problems with Linux. Everybody does from time to time. You're forgetting that everybody has problems with Windows, too. And judging from the forum traffic, the problems are more frequent, worse in severity, and harder to fix without a format and reinstall. On Linux you actually have to put some effort into getting into a situation where you have to reinstall. Like, oh, deleting all the system files.

And don't get me started on viruses.


----------



## Bizzy

I read this a couple months back and said "hey why not". So I downloaded Ubuntu, installed and booted. Like you said most would do, I didn't try very hard to learn my way around and uninstalled it the same week. 
I've had Linux running on VMware since then but never really used it for anything other than booting it up once and a while to poke around. 
Last week I downloaded a copy of Fedora and I don't think I'm going to go back to Windows (other than the obvious gaming - I cant put a 4870 on the side road) Linux worked instantly from the moment I popped the CD in until now.
Even the two I tried are similar, many improvements were made in just those short few months (a six month period you suggested is waaay too long!)

On a side note: My MBR was corrupted from a half ass attempt at modifying my boot loader and was not able to load either windows nor linux and I didn't have a spare windows CD to recover from. I found simple instructions within minutes to fix my MBR simply from my fedora DVD and had the problem fixed within 30 minutes while most forums suggested formatting, HAH.


----------



## IEATFISH

I recently downloaded the game Sauerbraten. I would dual boot Linux if for no other reason, just for this game. I don't know why it is so fun, but I am hooked.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *IEATFISH*


I recently downloaded the game Sauerbraten. I would dual boot Linux if for no other reason, just for this game. I don't know why it is so fun, but I am hooked.


No one plays that game, do they?

Nexuiz is my favorite FPS, available for all 3 major platforms.


----------



## IEATFISH

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


No one plays that game, do they?

Nexuiz is my favorite FPS, available for all 3 major platforms.


There have always been 4-5 servers with enough people for a fun game.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RSXHiTMAN* 
LOl right, because having to take 15 minutes just to install a proper graphics driver alone is "common sense", then worrying about how to get your usb adapter wifi adapter online, lol "gui", dont worry if it was "common sense" more people wouldve used it, apparently this thread disagrees with you, dont tell me ignorance ive used several distros....theres nothing automated about linux

15minutes to install a graphics driver? Takes me longer than that to download and install the nvidia drivers from their site and reboot under Windows. Takes me a damn sight less to do sudo pacman -Sy nvidia (I run Arch, under Ubuntu, you just have to use the restricted driver manager and click use.)

And wifi adapters can be a problem, but try buying one that has drivers, or a WAP. It's not perfect, but it's no reason to bash a whole OS.

You are just being narrow-minded.


----------



## Transhour

i recently made the move to ubuntu 8.10. like most here, i have played with linux in the past, but hit a brick wall on trying to install something or get drivers for something to work and been like "okay, whatever" and go back to windows.

don't get me wrong, i love vista, but i wanted a change i guess. i was actually surprised there were only two drivers i had to install, one, nvidia and the second, my tv tuner card (which still doesn't work, got the drivers compiled, but still a no go.) but other than that, for the last week, i have been in ubuntu, to say the least, very impressed with it.

i dunno, but for some reason videos seem to look way better in ubuntu than windows







.

and ppl complaining about gaming in linux, have you tried cedega? i purchase a membership to cedega(the old winex implementation of dx), and what games i haven't been able to run in wine, i have been able to run here, albeit, i haven't gotten the latest and greatest titles to run (does sins of solar empire count







). so i am pretty much set in my gaming area, so i have to boot into windows to get to the end of farcry 2, that is not a big crying shame, cause i am almost done with the game LOL.

and i don't know about the rest of you, but i absolutely was jealous of apt-get in ubuntu, if you don't know the exact name of the package, 90% of the time it will give you a suggestion, if not just go ahead and download, and package manager, makes it way easier to download software for it, if you don't feel like compiling the source that is, you just go to whatever program you want website, choose the debian install, and download and click it and it will install it.

the only complaint so far i have about linux, other than the gaming one most have,is that grub jacked up my windows mbr, don't know why, but i had to boot into the recovery console and do a fdisk -mbr to get my windows install to work again and then boot into the debian recovery cd and re-install grub on my linux drive, yeah it's a pain in the but to tell bios which harddrive to boot instead of the bootloader, but honestly, i think it is well worth it.

i think i am here to stay for awhile, unless windows really does WOW me with something usefull.


----------



## RSXHiTMAN

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Now that comes dangerously close to trolling.

First, you're blaming your wireless driver problems on Linux when the actual cause is the chipset manufacturers. A different wireless stick would have worked out of the box with zero configuration.

Second, you're blaming your video driver problems on, well, I don't know what. But I can tell you I've spent MUCH more time installing Windows drivers than I have ever had to spend on Linux.

And I've lost count of the number of times some Windows driver crapped out and there was nothing you could do but search through forums for hours on end until finally finding some obscure sequence of dead chicken waving that fixes it.. for a while. On Linux you can actually e-mail the person who wrote the driver! I've never seen a Windows driver where you can do that.

Finally, so you had problems with Linux. Everybody does from time to time. You're forgetting that everybody has problems with Windows, too. And judging from the forum traffic, the problems are more frequent, worse in severity, and harder to fix without a format and reinstall. On Linux you actually have to put some effort into getting into a situation where you have to reinstall. Like, oh, deleting all the system files.

And don't get me started on viruses.


ill agree with manufacturer fault, your getting to the root of the problem, which is not manufacturers, but money, and that doesnt help the end user now does it? when vista came out , people hated it mainly for the driver problems, how do you expect linux to survive this? lol , a major corporate company had problems with getting manufacturers to make the drivers and your expecting an open source to survive in this? that cant happen, your asking me to get different hardware because of the OS? right, im gonna put my balls up on front and jump around the OS

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


15minutes to install a graphics driver? Takes me longer than that to download and install the nvidia drivers from their site and reboot under Windows. Takes me a damn sight less to do sudo pacman -Sy nvidia (I run Arch, under Ubuntu, you just have to use the restricted driver manager and click use.)

And wifi adapters can be a problem, but try buying one that has drivers, or a WAP. It's not perfect, but it's no reason to bash a whole OS.

You are just being narrow-minded.


it was a severe crash on ubuntu that caused alot of problems with xserver, even the ubuntu forums couldnt help me, it was a crashed artifacted gui, including the command line, i got it working though took longer then 15 minutes, dont tell me nothing about narrow minded, ive used several distros, having linux as an option is great, but to have this cult like linux trolling is no good, yes bashing a whole OS for the same reasons vista was bashed is a good reason, ironic isnt it...im not bashing a whole OS based on those 2 problems, im bashing your cult like linux "movement", use linux, but use it quietly, with your mouths taped ..rofl (yes being an ass), and because that anyone who doesnt want to take the TIME, to get linux working, (because its always easy setting it up /sarcasm) is immediately narrow minded, you guys are a cult


----------



## error10

OK, now you ARE trolling.

Just wait until we start bashing the cult-like Windows "movement."


----------



## legoman786

My head hurts... I know I haven't used any distros for a *long* time, but Linux is a cult?


----------



## REDHAMMER999

linux I would say is much more efficent. but then who wants an OS that doesnt ever use anymore than 1% of you processor because it just doesnt need it because it doesnt do any half descent games whatsoever. I looked up games for linux, tru i found a few but they still all arn't half as good!


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *REDHAMMER999* 
linux I would say is much more efficent. but then who wants an OS that doesnt ever use anymore than 1% of you processor because it just doesnt need it because it doesnt do any half descent games whatsoever. I looked up games for linux, tru i found a few but they still all arn't half as good!

Gawd forbid that the OS actually be efficient at anything!







A good OS is supposed to waste your CPU and RAM, right?


----------



## theCanadian

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the thread.


Not trying to turn this into a flame war... but I had one of two options, I could have said, "I had a negative experience whilst trying out Linux, I think I'll suffer with Windows until something better comes out."

*OR*

I could post my somewhat humorous venting of frustration.

My choice, not yours.


----------



## Coopa

Last time ive tried it was freaking hard for me to use with all the wine.. and other stuff was it called sudo no... anyway its just hard for me to use since im not ready to get to hard work


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Coopa*


Last time ive tried it was freaking hard for me to use with all the wine.. and other stuff was it called sudo no... anyway its just hard for me to use since im not ready to get to hard work










It helps to be sober when installing Linux.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theCanadian* 
Not trying to turn this into a flame war... but I had one of two options, I could have said, "I had a negative experience whilst trying out Linux, I think I'll suffer with Windows until something better comes out."

*OR*

I could post my somewhat humorous venting of frustration.

My choice, not yours.

*OR*
You could have posted actual reasons why you disliked your trial.


----------



## error10

So many people are still too accustomed to the old, stupid Windows way of dealing with software: empty complaining to no purpose but venting. They haven't realized that in Linux you can actually do something about imperfect software to improve it.


----------



## theCanadian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
*OR*
You could have posted actual reasons why you disliked your trial.

Linux isn't mainstream. If I need support for something that doesn't come on the distro, then I either need to spend hours looking for the perfect addon, or give up.

I gave up because I feel I shouldn't have to compromise functionality.

Linux has it's advantages. Linux's command of webservers is absolutely astounding. But Linux isn't what I'm looking for.

I tried the Red Hat Project BTW. Fedora.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theCanadian* 
Linux isn't mainstream. If I need support for something that doesn't come on the distro, then I either need to spend hours looking for the perfect addon, or give up.

I gave up because I feel I shouldn't have to compromise functionality.

Linux has it's advantages. Linux's command of webservers is absolutely astounding. But Linux isn't what I'm looking for.

I tried the Red Hat Project BTW. Fedora.

Sorry, what?

'something that doesn't come with the distro'

So... say you need an IRC client, doesn't come with the distro of choice. So you do a search for 'IRC' in your package manager, and install xchat, how does that take hours?


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *theCanadian*


Linux isn't mainstream. If I need support for something that doesn't come on the distro, then I either need to spend hours looking for the perfect addon, or give up.

I gave up because I feel I shouldn't have to compromise functionality.


Can you be more specific as to what you were looking for? After all, if there's functionality missing that you need, nobody can provide it without knowing what it is!


----------



## DarkVader

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
So... say you need an IRC client, doesn't come with the distro of choice. So you do a search for 'IRC' in your package manager, and install xchat, how does that take hours?

Thats the thing i like about linux, instant support


----------



## theCanadian

Ok look. Bottom line is, I'm not going to run Linux just to run wine... I don't care about little stuff like IRC and all that. If Linux can't run steam, can't run FS9, can't run FSX, can't run CFS, can't run BF2, can't run what windows can, then why bother?

Sure, there are programs that Linux has which act as replacements/alternatives. However, the list of software that windows can run that linux can't, is much larger than the list of software that linux can run that windows can't.

Thus, your going to need to keep your windows partition...

When the ReactOS enters the beta stage I'll try it out.

ReactOS is *not* Linux. 
Quote:



*The ultimate goal of ReactOS is to allow you to remove WindowsÂ® and install ReactOS without the end user noticing the change.*


Obviously there will be some intentional changes to make ReactOS unique.

Best part? It's free.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *theCanadian*


Ok look. Bottom line is, I'm not going to run Linux just to run wine... I don't care about little stuff like IRC and all that. If Linux can't run steam, can't run FS9, can't run FSX, can't run CFS, can't run BF2, can't run what windows can, then why bother?

Sure, there are programs that Linux has which act as replacements/alternatives. However, the list of software that windows can run that linux can't, is much larger than the list of software that linux can run that windows can't.

Thus, your going to need to keep your windows partition...

When the ReactOS enters the beta stage I'll try it out.

ReactOS is *not* Linux.

Obviously there will be some intentional changes to make ReactOS unique.

Best part? It's free.


For gaming, no, Linux isn't viable, but for everything else, the software offerings are equivalent, or, more often than not, better than windows stuff, not to mention it's a better environment to work in.

ReactOS is a nice enough idea, but it's not ever going to be better than Linux, as it's copying Windows, it's not designed to be good, it's designed to be 100% compatible, hence, it can't fix Windows' mistakes.


----------



## error10

Yeah, since you're a gamer, you aren't usually going to have as good an experience with playing Windows games in Linux. That's just the way things are right now.

Of course, I think the whole point of this challenge was to use Linux for what it is, not for what it isn't.


----------



## theCanadian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Of course, I think the whole point of this challenge was to use Linux for what it is, not for what it isn't.

For what it is, linux is pretty good. But for it to be useful, you can't have a need/dependency on Windows. If you're able to function without windows, then good for you, you get a free OS. If not, then you have to *ehem* _buy_ a legit copy of windows. Either that, or buy a Mac (which is even more limited in scope).

I'm not a 'gamer' per say. Very little of my time is spent gaming. Maybe an hour a week. But I *did* pay for those games, and when I want to play them, I want to play them.

So basically, I'd rather suffer with Windows than enjoy Linux. But for real, windows isn't that bad... Windows XP pro is damn stable. Never once have I BSOD'd under normal conditions.

A parting question.

What would you say is the most widely used / popular version of Linux.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *theCanadian*


A parting question.

What would you say is the most widely used / popular version of Linux.


It depends on who you ask.

You could run a poll here and it would come up with the majority of people running Ubuntu, or something derived from it like Mint. They designed it for Linux noobs, after all.

If you asked a bunch of IT admins, they'd probably all vote for Red Hat/Fedora or something derived from it because it's easier to deal with in a business/workstation setting.

The popularity ranking over at Distrowatch has Ubuntu at #1, Fedora at #4.


----------



## bomfunk

Quote:

What would you say is the most widely used / popular version of Linux.
Ubuntu, OpenSuse, Mint (based on Ubuntu), Fedora...

go to www.distrowatch.com for rankings


----------



## enorbet2

More on gaming in general later but one important point -

STEAM does run in Linux!

(btw no flame trolls please all ranting about layers and emulation since java, flash, etc work similarly the same in windoze and few dozers ***** about that)

They did indeed make it unnecessarily more PITA when they changed the executable to an .msi extension but with a minor update it runs fine in wine and cedega as well as in virtual ie vmware. Anybody tried w/ VNC?

Jimmy


----------



## error10

Huh? I just double click on .msi files to install them.


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Huh? I just double click on .msi files to install them.


A few months ago I couldn't get Steam to install with the .msi, I had to track down a dated .exe installer. Haven't tried it since I added a more up-to-date Wine repo though.

That said, I keep a vLited copy of Vista around for games, just so I don't have to deal with the BS. Ubuntu works well for me for everything else. It's good knowing my important docs are safe in Ubuntu. I havent' heard of any Windows viruses formatting an entire drive in many many years.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
Originally I had some trouble getting Steam to install when I bought HalfLife-2 and wanted to see how it performed in Linux. I contacted Steam and basically came right out and asked if they were actively trying to exclude Linux users since I didn't want to keep searching for fixes every time they updated if that was their plan. While I like gaming in Linux and have had some games play better there than in windows (though fewer of late since MS has improved their TCPIP stack which used to be a huge gain for reduced lag in Linux, though better memory management is still a plus, especially compared to Vista) I really have better things to do than fight with a company who is actively trying to cut me out. Happily the tech responded saying that in no way were they trying to exclude Linux-based customers.

So I followed his recommendation and downloaded and added "msiexec" to my "fake C:\\Windows" and the install went just fine. HalfLife 2 runs as well but not better now in Slackware for me as it does in XP64. I have yet to try it in Slamd64, essentially the unofficial 64bit version of Slackware. BTW it is another situation in which I have applauded Linux's power in that it is so easy to create hard and soft links so that actual duplication resulting in wasted drive space does not occur.

While I am somewhat displeased that Xandros seems to be working so closely with MS in a number of areas, I still maintain my install of it for several reasons - One, so I can speak from experience about the state of the more windows-friendly distros, and Two so I can sometimes learn from it's automatics how best to setup cranky hardware configs. With linking I can share song and video playlists from just one hard drive slot to any of my Linux installs even remote boxes through VNC. It's an added plus that it is easy to secure those files and/or directories either making them invisible or password protected to prying eyes.

BTW even the free version of Xandros operates as a LiveCD and can tell anyone interested in the challenge if any of their hardware is likley to be a problem. Way back in version 2 Xandros had my USB connected cable modem detected, installed, setup and working on the very first boot after install as well as a Windows network shared all-in-one printer/scanner.

Anyway it is really worthwhile to seek pages on the web that list (and rate) what games have been successfully installed and played in Linux through various means. Unreal Tournament still offers native installation tools as do a few others (I haven't tried Quake's latest yet) but Cedega, Wine and VMWare offer differing lists with some difference in user reported quality of subjective feel as well as some benchmarks.

Speaking of emulators, there are some really great virtual machines available for playing old timey arcade games like Joust, Paperboy etc that are still fun. Funny how some of those old sounds bring back fun memories.
L8Z
Jimmy


----------



## Madmaximus

Lattyware I am taking the challenge. After reading this thread and posting my own to find out which Linux version I should try 







 Help! Which linux Version Too many choices I installed LinuxMint.

I have only been using it for one day but here are my thoughts so far:

1. I downloaded it and got it burnt to a CD easily. (after some one suggested some free ISO burning software ISO recorder v2 windows xp powertoy (thanks Higgins) I couldn't get my version of nero to burn it for some reason)

2. I like the live CD it makes installation very easy. I also liked the install wizard it was very straight forward and easy to understand your choices also it gave me a since of control over my OS that Windows has never been able to give me.

3. Once it was installed it just worked. One of the first things I noticed is unlike Windows which gives you an 800X600 screen size until you get the video drivers installed, Linux Mint gave me my standard moniter screen size of 1440X900 right from the start. Also it detected my Nvidia 8800GT and let me now that I needed to install proprietary drivers and when I clicked to enable them it took care of everything for me it downloaded the right driver and installed it. Once that was finished I did a reboot and Linux again let me know that it was enabled and working. Very simple and clean.

4. It may just be me but the background images on my desktop and the windows and text all look cleaner, sharper, and better than they every have with XP. I noticed that the Firefox browser makes this site look a lot cleaner and sharper too. Visual appeal is very good with linux Mint from what I am seeing.

5. It is different from XP and I really do have to just play around with it to find what I want to do. But this is what I like to call a learning curve and is to be expected.

6. So far I have been able to find a driver for my Creative X-Fi card but have not figured out how to install it yet but some of the other guys are working with me in my thread to fix this and I am sure I will get it fixed soon. The other thing is I had read error10's Linux hardware guide so I knew going into mint that I might have trouble with the drivers for this card and that this is not problem with Linux Mint but with Creative. They have released the source code for this driver and I am sure that in time the good folks working on the Mint project will get this fixed.

For only being one day into the challange I would have to say that I am well pleased with Linux Mint and I am looking forward to learning more about it. If TheSims2 and TheSims3 would play on it I would discontinue use of XP for ever.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
Lattyware I am taking the challenge. After reading this thread and posting my own to find out which Linux version I should try 







 Help! Which linux Version Too many choices I installed LinuxMint.

I have only been using it for one day but here are my thoughts so far:

1. I downloaded it and got it burnt to a CD easily. (after some one suggested some free ISO burning software ISO recorder v2 windows xp powertoy (thanks Higgins) I couldn't get my version of nero to burn it for some reason)

2. I like the live CD it makes installation very easy. I also liked the install wizard it was very straight forward and easy to understand your choices also it gave me a since of control over my OS that Windows has never been able to give me.

3. Once it was installed it just worked. One of the first things I noticed is unlike Windows which gives you an 800X600 screen size until you get the video drivers installed, Linux Mint gave me my standard moniter screen size of 1440X900 right from the start. Also it detected my Nvidia 8800GT and let me now that I needed to install proprietary drivers and when I clicked to enable them it took care of everything for me it downloaded the right driver and installed it. Once that was finished I did a reboot and Linux again let me know that it was enabled and working. Very simple and clean.

4. It may just be me but the background images on my desktop and the windows and text all look cleaner, sharper, and better than they every have with XP. I noticed that the Firefox browser makes this site look a lot cleaner and sharper too. Visual appeal is very good with linux Mint from what I am seeing.

5. It is different from XP and I really do have to just play around with it to find what I want to do. But this is what I like to call a learning curve and is to be expected.

6. So far I have been able to find a driver for my Creative X-Fi card but have not figured out how to install it yet but some of the other guys are working with me in my thread to fix this and I am sure I will get it fixed soon. The other thing is I had read error10's Linux hardware guide so I knew going into mint that I might have trouble with the drivers for this card and that this is not problem with Linux Mint but with Creative. They have released the source code for this driver and I am sure that in time the good folks working on the Mint project will get this fixed.

For only being one day into the challange I would have to say that I am well pleased with Linux Mint and I am looking forward to learning more about it. If TheSims2 and TheSims3 would play on it I would discontinue use of XP for ever.

Sounds like it's going well. A good start always does wonders.
Stick at it, and see how it works for general usage, just use as you would windows and go from there. Plenty of us here if you even need a hand, but you seem to be handling anything yourself.

Good stuff.


----------



## error10

Wait until you have to burn a CD in Linux.


----------



## Higgins

I'm on day 8 so far on my DV6000 laptop. Ubuntu 8.10 installed, with XP MCE on Virtualbox just incase









Bottom line: Windows will never see my laptop's hard drive again









Screenshot:


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Higgins* 
I'm on day 8 so far on my DV6000 laptop. Ubuntu 8.10 installed, with XP MCE on Virtualbox just incase









Bottom line: Windows will never see my laptop's hard drive again









Screenshot:

Link to the wallpaper?


----------



## Aprz

I've been using Archlinux for awhile now.


----------



## Boyboyd

Higgins that's an awesome song, i would +1 you for it, but i think it would be an insult to the rep system, lol.

I'm still on archlinux on my desktop and ubuntu 8.10 on my laptop.


----------



## enorbet2

<Wait until you have to burn a CD in Linux.>

Has this been a problem for you? Aside from the fact that Nero is and has been for a long time available as a native Linux app, there are far better burners that are Open Source. They are better because they are better written, being lean 'n mean, free of ridiculous bloat, which translates into user friendly, fast and solid. XCDRoast is quite good but the coup de gras has to be K3B, written by the boys at KDE. That is just a superb team with almost everything they release being of the highest quality and K3B is no exception.

Both XCDRoast and K3B handle the permissions situation as an easy step in the automatic setup. You don't have to know a thing about permissions and security because the setip simply asks you how you expect to use the program and them handles permissions for you according to your answers. They have extended ability and information about overburn, creating bootables all while keeping a clean uncluttered interface... extremely well organized, especially K3B.

Maybe it is because Linux in general is designed for power users but there is much more in the way of tools and information built right in for not only burning CDs and DVDs but also for making bootable USB thumbdrives. So my answer to "just wait till you have to burn a CD in Linux" is prepare yourself for a solid pleasurable experience in programs built like most are for Linux without the usual fluff and distractions.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
<Wait until you have to burn a CD in Linux.>

Has this been a problem for you? Aside from the fact that Nero is and has been for a long time available as a native Linux app, there are far better burners that are Open Source. They are better because they are better written, being lean 'n mean, free of ridiculous bloat, which translates into user friendly, fast and solid. XCDRoast is quite good but the coup de gras has to be K3B, written by the boys at KDE. That is just a superb team with almost everything they release being of the highest quality and K3B is no exception.

Both XCDRoast and K3B handle the permissions situation as an easy step in the automatic setup. You don't have to know a thing about permissions and security because the setip simply asks you how you expect to use the program and them handles permissions for you according to your answers. They have extended ability and information about overburn, creating bootables all while keeping a clean uncluttered interface... extremely well organized, especially K3B.

Maybe it is because Linux in general is designed for power users but there is much more in the way of tools and information built right in for not only burning CDs and DVDs but also for making bootable USB thumbdrives. So my answer to "just wait till you have to burn a CD in Linux" is prepare yourself for a solid pleasurable experience in programs built like most are for Linux without the usual fluff and distractions.

You obviously missed my







on that post. And the links in the sig.

Linux has much better CD/DVD burning support out of the box than Windows has. And the various apps you can install with one click in the package manager rival or exceed much of the software you have to pay for in Windows.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

I've actually never been able to successfully burn a CD/DVD in Linux. It always says, "Writing..." And then it gives me that ANNOYING, HORRENDOUS, STUPID failure sound (like it's taunting me), and then spits out the failed disk. The funny thing is that the next time I put the disk in, it's blank. Apparently no writing ever takes place.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
I've actually never been able to successfully burn a CD/DVD in Linux. It always says, "Writing..." And then it gives me that ANNOYING, HORRENDOUS, STUPID failure sound (like it's taunting me), and then spits out the failed disk. The funny thing is that the next time I put the disk in, it's blank. Apparently no writing ever takes place.

Really? Must be your drive doesn't like it. I've never had a problem, personally.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
I've actually never been able to successfully burn a CD/DVD in Linux. It always says, "Writing..." And then it gives me that ANNOYING, HORRENDOUS, STUPID failure sound (like it's taunting me), and then spits out the failed disk. The funny thing is that the next time I put the disk in, it's blank. Apparently no writing ever takes place.

Odd.

Run sudo dvdrecord -prcap and paste the output.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Odd.

Run sudo dvdrecord -prcap and paste the output.

I'll try that when I get a PC desktop up with Linux again. Thanks.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
I'll try that when I get a PC desktop up with Linux again. Thanks.

OK, but you'll have to remind me. I'll probably forget all about it by then.


----------



## enorbet2

The only reason I can possibly even imagine for being unable to burn a CD in Linux is permissions. You can't write to any area to which you don't have permission and that is an example of good basic security. Security may be a pita but would you live in a house that didn't even have doors let alone locks on them?

As I mentioned in my previous post modern linux apps handle this during setup. Because 100gunner didn't mention which app he was using it is impossible to know what went wrong. Most likely is that the app was just terribly old, like before they handled permissions during setup. IIRC XCDRoast asked permission questions w/o explaining their importance maybe 4 or 5 years ago but even they've made it easy. If you're new to Linux and really not interested in growing and just want it to blindly work, get Nero and live with a little bloat (thankfully not as bad as on doze version last time I bothered looking). Most people will just love K3B.

For those who want to know more, remember that all of these, Nero, XCDRoast, K3B, etc are just graphic front-ends for the awesomely powerful "cdrecord" set of apps. Maximum power and flexibilty is from the command line, but GUI's were invented for comfort so just pick the one that looks right to you.


----------



## azcrazy

i will run linux (any flavor) but i can play any games and the folding is a bit hard to get working in wine if it wasn't for those two thinks i will be running linux in all my systems


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *azcrazy*


i will run linux (any flavor) but i can play any games and the folding is a bit hard to get working in wine if it wasn't for those two thinks i will be running linux in all my systems


I don't understand what you're trying to say. Try some commas and periods...

Why would you be running [email protected] in wine? The reason to fold in Linux is because the Linux [email protected] client is much faster...


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Try some commas and periods...

Why would you be running [email protected] in wine? The reason to fold in Linux is because the Linux [email protected] client is much faster...

GPU2 folding, perhaps. It's a royal nightmare to get going in WINE; among other things you actually have to patch and recompile WINE!


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

I thought you could only fold with ATI GPUs.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


I thought you could only fold with ATI GPUs.


NVIDIA FTW. You can fold with either but NVIDIA cards will get you more PPD. Usually.


----------



## enorbet2

Hello
I just wanted to post a viewpoint seemingly a bit unpopular in the interest of beginners starting on what I consider to be a wrong assumption. Some people focus mainly upon their applications and care little for the underlying operating system and this message is not for them. For those who like to focus a little more on fundamentals and foundations before they think about what's on top, this is for them.

Considering the popularity of the many variations of Ubuntu (frankly I don't see the big deal), the concern for packaging systems, and the common abhorrence for compiling, patching etc. I'd just like to offer a few points that I think make the most of the strengths of Linux that are impossible in any but Open Source operating systems.

It used to be that even upgrading an app or especially major components like Xwindows could, through auto install of dependencies hopelessly break a system and thankfully that level of problem is at an end, making rpm's and debs handy, quick and no longer wickedly dangerous, so I am not in any way employing any kind of scare tactics to point out the advantages of learning to "roll your own". It's just that so much is said about compiling from source as if it were the Big Bad Wolf I think it is worthwhile to point out that one does not have to be an obsessive geek or computer science major to realize the value of building from source.

Of course one big advantage right from jump street is that, whether the kernel or just some little app, building from source means that not only can you often get newer versions first (before someone manages to build a reliable package for your distro) but you can build it optimized for your CPU and overall system.

With the exception of the kernel most apps only require three commands to build a completely customized app - "configure", "make", and "make install". For the last one I prefer the sweet program "checkinstall" because it makes packages whether slackpacks, rpms, or debs. This makes it easy to share among other similar systems or friends but mostly for uninstalling. It just isn't difficult in most cases even for rank beginners and there are numerous rewards.

One major reward is getting to see what options are available in what outside services are available so you can leave out that which you don't have or need, and the opposite make sure you have support for what you have, will have or would like to have.

During the configure and make stages, where the compile process analyzes your system to see what is out there (or not) and at what version level to see if all will operate correctly or at maximum efficiency, even error messages can be very enlightening about what your system may lack. Don't get me wrong, there are a few times when it can be frustrating to sort out what is blocking a proper build, but you get to learn a great deal about your system and ultimately avoid "spaghetti code" where things just sort of fit instead of being clean, smooth and seamless and custom made for your desires and your machine.

Once you've "popped your cherry" and compiled an app, it gives you confidence to take on the building of a custom kernel and you're on your way to truly owning your system and getting the most out of your hardware and your OpSys. It then will do exactly what you want, no more no less (no background automatics complicating understanding and/or troubleshooting) and that is a really worthwhile goal. I can't tell you how many times I find myself grinning and thnking "Damn! I love Linux" when it allows me to do exactly what I want instead of confusing everything and causing that angry pulling of hair that comes fairly often with other operating systems, Mac included, despite how good it is generally.

Anyway, I just want to encourage people to try stuff even if it means setting aside a special partition to install your experimental distro, the one just for fun of messing with it without worry of messing it up. Besides the many gains that can be realized, it's just really fun and only possible at such a deep level with Linux or BSD. Who knows?, you may find yourself writing scripts (really easy) or even learning a little perl or C to really get creative. There's a whole world in there!


----------



## Madmaximus

Quote:

Considering the popularity of the many variations of Ubuntu *(frankly I don't see the big deal),* the concern for packaging systems, and the common abhorrence for compiling, patching etc. I'd just like to offer a few points that I think make the most of the strengths of Linux that are impossible in any but Open Source operating systems.
Being new to Linux the big deal for me is that it just works with out me understanding what is going on and the least amount of learning curve the better, and I think I speak for most of the new Linux users when I say this. They can correct me if I am wrong. Ubuntu and it's forks are very good at giving a lot of eye candy and making the transition from MS as easy as possiable . As some one else posted it's the eye candy (3D desktop mainly) that gets most new users to at least look at Linux. And it's the wizards and automation that keeps them using it. Speaking of 3D desktops this is the best one I have seen so far


YouTube - Linux Beauty





but I degres this isn't the goup of people you are posting to.

Quote:

I just wanted to post a viewpoint seemingly a bit unpopular in the interest of beginners starting on what I consider to be a wrong assumption. Some people focus mainly upon their applications and care little for the underlying operating system and this message is not for them. For those who like to focus a little more on fundamentals and foundations before they think about what's on top, this is for them.
As for the real reason you posted I agree, in fact I have been doing some research on, "building your on Linux OS". And I have already had a chance to use the "make", and "make install" commands while trying to get my Creative X-Fi drivers to work and it was easy once I looked up all the terminal commands online, did a little research, and made a few posts on this site. Of course I never did get the drivers to work I kept getting failed "make install" errors. I gave up after about 4 tries (third time isn't charm). Don't get me wrong here I am trying to say that it is because of my sound drive experience that I started looking into making my own custom Linux OS. Of course when I say custom I am thnking along the lines your are, compiling everything on my system so that I have nothing other than what I need. No extra drivers, Apps, or anything else I don't need.

For now I am just playing around with different forks of Linux, and all the applications available to see what I want and will use. So that I can build my own custom Linux just for me. I am hoping to do this with out doing any coding of my own.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madmaximus* 
Don't get me wrong here I am trying to say that it is because of my sound drive experience that I started looking into making my own custom Linux OS. Of course when I say custom I am thnking along the lines your are, compiling everything on my system so that I have nothing other than what I need. No extra drivers, Apps, or anything else I don't need.

For now I am just playing around with different forks of Linux, and all the applications available to see what I want and will use. So that I can build my own custom Linux just for me. I am hoping to do this with out doing any coding of my own.

I recommend Gentoo; it's more or less exactly what you need, with some of the tedium (of typing "make; make install" over and over) removed.

If you try Gentoo and decide it still isn't hardcore enough for you, the last remaining option is Linux From Scratch.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *madmaximus*


youtube - linux beauty but i degres this isn't the goup of people you are posting to.


omg music from donkey kong!!!


----------



## reezin14

Well I've decided to take the challenge,and use linux(*Suse 11*) exclusively for at least the winter.I will fire up Windows only to game. I've dabbled with linux mostly for classes,when I was enrolled in college,and still* play around* with it every now and then.

Before I decided to give my own business a try and leave school,I was 2 weeks into the UNIX Fundamentals class,so I think I know enough to know that I don't know enough(lol).At any rate I'll be bugging you guys for (info/how-to) get things done.Plus this can only benefit me when I return to school.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reezin14*


Well I've decided to take the challenge,and use linux(*Suse 11*) exclusively for at least the winter.I will fire up Windows only to game. I've dabbled with linux mostly for classes,when I was enrolled in college,and still* play around* with it every now and then.


I've played a bit with OpenSUSE 11 here on my laptop but had some trouble getting wireless to work. (SUSE 10.3 was worse; neither wired nor wireless worked!







) Finally stuck with Ubuntu for the lappy. Other than that problem, though, SuSE looked fine.


----------



## reezin14

Well I've been wired for a while now and haven't had any serious problems.Everything worked right out of the box(except I wasn't being seen on my network),but that was fixed easy enough.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Suse is my favorite distro. I even got wireless working in it through ndiswrapper.


----------



## BiG O

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Suse is my favorite distro. I even got wireless working in it through ndiswrapper.


If you got wireless working in suse with ndiswrapper, chances are it'll work in almost all distros







. I used to use Suse, but switched to Ubuntu for no real reason haha. Both are great.

I plan on trying Gentoo in the near future.


----------



## Boyboyd

I'm planning on fedora x64 10 tomorrow


----------



## AOwpr

I installed Ubuntu a while ago, but never learned how to use it properly. I'll take your challenge, but under one condition (the main reason I stopped using Linux): how do I get my mouse cursor to "enhance pointer precision" (as it's called in Windows)?


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *AOwpr*


I installed Ubuntu a while ago, but never learned how to use it properly. I'll take your challenge, but under one condition (the main reason I stopped using Linux): how do I get my mouse cursor to "enhance pointer precision" (as it's called in Windows)?


Get the Razer DeathAdder Linux tool.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *BiG O*


If you got wireless working in suse with ndiswrapper, chances are it'll work in almost all distros







. I used to use Suse, but switched to Ubuntu for no real reason haha. Both are great.

I plan on trying Gentoo in the near future.


I can't get ndiswrapper to work in any other distro.

Suse is my favorite, and Debian is becoming a close second. It's like Ubuntu without the bloat.


----------



## AOwpr

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Get the Razer DeathAdder Linux tool.


Thank you.







I'll post back in a few weeks (when I remember).


----------



## Madmaximus

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


I recommend Gentoo; it's more or less exactly what you need, with some of the tedium (of typing "make; make install" over and over) removed.

If you try Gentoo and decide it still isn't hardcore enough for you, the last remaining option is Linux From Scratch.


I knew about Linux from scratch I found it the other day when I did a Google search for "build your own Linux OS". But I didn't know about Gentoo, thank you very much for this tip, from what I have seen so far this may be my answer.

I did some reading on the 3D desktop video I posted a link to earlier and if any one is interested it was created using Ubuntu with compfuzion and Gnome desktop. I was able to reproduce all the same effects with Mint. The only think I couldn't figure out is the fish in the middle of the cube, but after some reading it appears to be some sort of plug-in you can get that is similar to the gears plug-in I am using. I think it is called Atlantis2. I may search for it later just for curiosity sake and to expiriment with it on my desktop. There are several very nice desktop videos on U-tube just do a search for Linux and you will find them if any one is interested. The one I posted a link to is the most popular one though. These videos are great advertisments for Linux, and they really show off what Linux is cabable of. One thing I did notice from reading the posts about the Video I linked to was that most people thought it required some really awsome hardware to make it all possiable and the guy posted his system specs and I had to laugh.

Quote:



this was a conroe dual core 2.8 with 2 gigs of ram and a Geforce 7900GS


Not at his specks but at the fact that people don't understand that Linux is a very good OS and it doesn't require awsome hardware to do awsome things. To all the guys who have had a hand in making Linux what it is today I take my hat off to you. When you take pride in your work it shows. Freedom is beautiful.


----------



## error10

Yep I can even run Compiz on my $till Legendary FX 5500 and it isn't TOO bad. I've left it turned off though until I can get something better in this rig.


----------



## enorbet2

My previous post was just a call to get people to stop acting as if compiling from source was only for gearheads. I'm not saying the author meant to but such commets as "typing 'make' and 'make install' over and over" can be misunderstood by beginners to think one has to do that many times to install one app. Of course that isn't so.

From what I've read and experienced, since the advent of modular, on demand, drivers, there is little to gain performance-wise from building the entire OS from scratch, other than drive space. In fact I know some people who installed just basic command line support, booted up and then built X and KDE from scratch and experienced only a little performance gain. These underlying components have just gotten that solid and mature one no longer has to strive fir that Spartan approach, so I'm not trying to be some kind of minimalist purist here. I'm basically just pointing out that it isn't that hard to build apps and there is considerable to be gained there in performance, configurability, and understanding.

For a shameless plug, even if it's just on a trial install, check out Slackware

http://www.slackware.com/

It is the oldest distro still in use and more than that, until just recently, was the only distro completely built by one guy, Patrick Volkerding. For health reasons (plus how big it's gotten) he no longer builds everything but he is the ultimate arbiter. This is one distro NOT designed by committee and it really shows in how coherent and seamless everything is. It comes stock with numerous window managers, not just KDE or just Gnome, should you select the "install everything" checkbox. You can not only try these variations but can borrow from them to create your own combinations, without having to seek compatible packages.

Most important though is that the build tools are complete and perfectly chosen and built because building is assumed to be a priority instead of an afterthought, or in the case of some distros, actively avoided for fear of breaking fragile systems. Slackware is incredibly robust. I'd call it burly even if it wasn't so damned sleek because of the one man overview. It reminds me of Ferrari or other hand-built, one man's vision, custom race cars.

If nothing more just check out the install list to see what comes with it, but realize how much care went into making it all fit so smoothly. One example - when RedHat Fedora released a new version O think 2 years ago they included the latest build tools that had just been OKayed for final release. Patrick held back because he'd found it a bit buggy and avoided a lot of unhappy fans and kept his system solid while the likes of big ol' RedHat sufferred.

Anyway it's worth a peep.

Jimmy


----------



## Korben

Ok sir I'm gonna take your challenge. When I get the rest of my i7 parts I'll install Linux I haven't decided which distro though probably gonna start with Ubuntu or possibly archlinux.

Should be a good experience I have never tried linux before.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Korben* 
Ok sir I'm gonna take your challenge. When I get the rest of my i7 parts I'll install Linux I haven't decided which distro though probably gonna start with Ubuntu or possibly archlinux.

Should be a good experience I have never tried linux before.

if you've never tried linux before i recommend ubuntu over arch

arch is just as easy as ubuntu to use when it's installed. But installing it is a mammoth task if you've never used linux before. I struggled with my limited knowledge i had gained from using ubuntu for 6 months.


----------



## -iceblade^

and at the end of the day i am starting to think that the knowledge Ubuntu leaves you with is very little

i am praying for the day when i can pull off an Arch install, but as of yet, no dice.


----------



## error10

If you want to learn a little more, you could always try Fedora.







The new Fedora 10 hotness is out.


----------



## Korben

Quote:



Originally Posted by *boydyboyd*


if you've never tried linux before i recommend ubuntu over arch

arch is just as easy as ubuntu to use when it's installed. But installing it is a mammoth task if you've never used linux before. I struggled with my limited knowledge i had gained from using ubuntu for 6 months.


Ah alright then Ubuntu it is. The only thing that stresses me is not being able to play games. I guess that is why many people dual boot or Virtual.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *-iceblade^*


and at the end of the day i am starting to think that the knowledge Ubuntu leaves you with is very little

i am praying for the day when i can pull off an Arch install, but as of yet, no dice.


Arch is a great os. I installed it with the help of some guides i found with google. Here is a good one.

http://www.archlinux.org/static/docs...all-guide.html

don't let the guide fool you. It's actually fairly simple. Hey, if i can do it it must be, lol.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Korben*


Ah alright then Ubuntu it is. The only thing that stresses me is not being able to play games. I guess that is why many people dual boot or Virtual.


Some Windows games will work, some won't. Some will have lower FPS, a few will have higher FPS. Dual booting isn't THAT much of a pain, but you can go with virtualization, or just take Linux as a good excuse to build another rig.


----------



## lattyware

Seriously, if you are a gamer, best idea in the world is to build a Gaming Rig and a normal rig, that's what I do. My Gaming rig is a noisy microATX build, perfect for LAN parties, my main rig is a huge water cooled, but silent, thing. LAN rig runs Windows, main rig runs Arch Linux.

It's the best of both worlds.


----------



## Korben

I've been using Ubuntu for the past week and I must say for a complete free OS I'm very impressed. Most of the programs that they use such as FireFox, Pidgin, VLC I already was using on Vista so it wasn't all that hard to switch over. Avant Desktop Manager I think its called is very nice, it made me want one for Vista(which I ended up getting). I must say though I tried using Wine to install Steam and it worked so I was able to still play Counter-Strike which was nice. At first I was having the hardest time figuring out how to install stuff, but I figured it out and it is not as hard as people make it out to be. The command line is not difficult maybe for someone computer illiterate. One thing though I couldn't find a C compiler. Since I do some programming. I have to do further searching I suppose. Overall I am very happy I took the challenge.


----------



## arkheii

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Some Windows games will work, some won't. Some will have lower FPS, a few will have higher FPS. Dual booting isn't THAT much of a pain, but you can go with virtualization, or just take Linux as a good excuse to build another rig.










Among those options, build another rig is the most convenient. I can't imagine having to reboot every time I wanted to play a game on Vista, or use the browser on Linux because it has my settings stored.

Gamers can keep Windows for their main rig, then build a super cheap Linux rig for stuff like downloading or storing files. Not only will the gaming rig be more efficient (since it doesn't have to run a download client in the background or keep accessing the disk), you can also leave the Linux rig running 24/7 and manage downloads remotely.


----------



## Madmaximus

I have found the true best of both worlds. I need a couple of parts (PSU and DVD burner) and I will have my every day rig up and running. And with the help of my KVM I won't even have to dual boot. Two rigs, one for games, one for everything else, all on one mouse, one keyboard, and one monitor. Just press a button and bam your gaming, press it again and bam main rig.


----------



## wierdo124

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Korben*


I've been using Ubuntu for the past week and I must say for a complete free OS I'm very impressed. Most of the programs that they use such as FireFox, Pidgin, VLC I already was using on Vista so it wasn't all that hard to switch over. Avant Desktop Manager I think its called is very nice, it made me want one for Vista(which I ended up getting). I must say though I tried using Wine to install Steam and it worked so I was able to still play Counter-Strike which was nice. At first I was having the hardest time figuring out how to install stuff, but I figured it out and it is not as hard as people make it out to be. The command line is not difficult maybe for someone computer illiterate. One thing though I couldn't find a C compiler. Since I do some programming. I have to do further searching I suppose. Overall I am very happy I took the challenge.


You'd be even happier if you went with Mint. It's built off ubuntu and comes with more codecs and it's better done. I use it and most would recommend Mint over Ubuntu.

Linuxmint.com

More info in my sig.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Korben* 
One thing though I couldn't find a C compiler. Since I do some programming. I have to do further searching I suppose. Overall I am very happy I took the challenge.

sudo apt-get install build-essential


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Korben*


At first I was having the hardest time figuring out how to install stuff, but I figured it out and it is not as hard as people make it out to be. The command line is not difficult maybe for someone computer illiterate.


Of course. Most of the stories you hear are just scare stories made by bill gates loyalists who have never used Linux in their lives.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Korben*


One thing though I couldn't find a C compiler. Since I do some programming. I have to do further searching I suppose. Overall I am very happy I took the challenge.


GCC is a Terminal C compiler, and G++ is a C++ Terminal-based C++ compiler.

Eclipse is a multi-platform IDE for programming. It's available for Linux, windows, and OSX.


----------



## murderbymodem

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


If you want to learn a little more, you could always try Fedora.







The new Fedora 10 hotness is out.

















I'm mostly loving my Fedora 10









Do you use Gnome or KDE?
Fedora 10 is my first experience with KDE 4 and I think its amazing!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Redmist*
















I'm mostly loving my Fedora 10









Do you use Gnome or KDE?
Fedora 10 is my first experience with KDE 4 and I think its amazing!


KDE4 is so much nicer than KDE3.5. I used it back when it was quite unstable. I should give it another go some time. It's a much nicer DE than it used to be. I hated 3.5.


----------



## error10

I still use GNOME. I looked briefly at KDE 4, but it was on openSUSE so it kind of sucked. Maybe I'll try it on Fedora sometime.

Don't forget to read the release notes. Sometimes they put little hints and tricks in there.


----------



## reezin14

I tried Fedora 10,after figuring out why my internet connection was so slow it seemed OK. But it just didn't feel right somehow,so I've gone back to Suse 11(internet disconnection problem fixed).I'm glad I took this challenge,now to get everything just the way I want.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reezin14*


I tried Fedora 10,after figuring out why my internet connection was so slow it seemed OK. But it just didn't feel right somehow,so I've gone back to Suse 11(internet disconnection problem fixed).I'm glad I took this challenge,now to get everything just the way I want.


That's OK, SUSE didn't feel right to me. It never has. And I never got my wireless working under it. So off it went.

But you know, the great thing about Linux is that we have all these different choices for different people's tastes and circumstances.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


But you know, the great thing about Linux is that we have all these different choices for different people's tastes and circumstances.

















I agree. I was surprised by how much variation there is to each distro too.


----------



## reezin14

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


The great thing about Linux is that we have all these different choices for different people's tastes and circumstances.

















True indeed,my friend.









*EDIT*:I went with GNOME this time around I didn't really care for KDE 3.5(but I heard it was more stable than 4).Is 4 better?


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reezin14* 
True indeed,my friend.









*EDIT*:I went with GNOME this time around I didn't really care for KDE 3.5(but I heard it was more stable than 4).Is 4 better?

4 is significantly better.


----------



## enorbet2

Hey Guys
I really REALLY don't get it. What sort of instability with ANY version of KDE are you talking about?

Seriously, this is not trolling or any other kind of deceptive post. I just don't understand. I sometimes use Xandros which is a modified KDE manager so I'm not comparing to that though it has been perfectly stable since Xandros v3.

With Slackware, my main OpSys, I have upgraded for every version since v7 and it's on 12.1 now. Slackware even turns on all the goodies default with KDE. For example even if you use the "Details" view in the KDE File Manager, a mouseover shows properties on files and on picture files, like jpegs, bmps etc it shows a large thumbnail on a mouseover. This is default and yet in Slack, every version I've used everything including KDE is absolutely rock solid. Since v9 of Slackware, whether on a fresh install or system upgrade, I have never had a crash of the whole system. I've had an app freeze rarely but even with 150+ processes running ALWAYS I've been able to kill the frozen process. Even among these rarities KDE was never at fault.

So please I'd really like to know what sort of problems anyone has had with KDE and also please reveal if this occured on a default new install or after an upgrade.

Thanks in advance

Jimmy


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

I like KDE a lot, but I do tend to have more problems with it than GNOME. For example, sometimes I will click on apps to open, the icon will bounce (the icon under the mouse pointer), but then 30 seconds later, nothing happens. And other times, there are just random crashes (not system failures, but on some occasion just that "SIGSEV 11" thing, or whatever it might be called).


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
Unfortunately the previous poster didn't mention which version of KDE and on what distro so I can't comment too deeply. However if an application's icon bounces but fails to launch that is actually a good thing compared to BSOD or system freeze and it's easily fixed. All one has to do is launch the app from command line where you will get error messages that will almost always inform you of exactly what you need to fix. If you have any doubt about what the command is just rt-clk on the icon and view "properties" and then lft-clk on "application" which will reveal the command including any switches.

9 times out of 10 the error message will reveal some simple reason the app failed to launch completely. In the remaining situations the "man" command for that app will reveal what switches are available and what the ones, if any, included on the icon are designed to accomplish. Here you can possibly choose different switches to modify how your app works from the icon launch. Once you see how many switch variations are possible and consider just how many icons would there be if all were represented graphically you will get a clue about why the command line is so fast and powerful. This does not say you should become a CLI freak, it just points out how easy it is to troubleshoot a crash that results from a failure-to-launch from icon.

Incidentally I may have answered my own question since I spent some long overdue time on Slashdot. It seems that KDE 4 is essentially a beta release and is a major change not only in appearance but in the entire programming environment paradigm. It is a big leap into the future and as such apparently still has a few problems.

This illustrates what I've mentioned about Slackware that it does not automatically include the latest version of apps (or entire Desktop Environments) if it doesn't perform flawlessly or even get along well with it's neighbors. A KDE developer recommended on Slashdot to try KDE v4 on a Live CD first until a final is released. It will be interesting to see if KDE 4.1 survives the evolution from "current-testing" to "final" release for Slackware v 12.2 or 13 or whatever it will be deemed proper naming. I'm betting on 13 considering the massive amounts of major upgrades already on "current" even outside of "testing".

BTW it does make me wonder why "stable" Debian is always so far behind what's current considering the size of the team they have compared to Slack. Oh well, I'm just so damned happy with Slack I only care about such things out of idle curiousity.

Finally anyone posting about problems with KDE, since that is more than idle curiousity, please do include your distro and KDE version.
Thanks
Jimmy


----------



## error10

Debian's idea of "stable" is "nobody's found bugs in it for months." Unfortunately by the time a package gets to that point, it's also rapidly closing in on "nobody's using it anymore."


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Greetz
Unfortunately the previous poster didn't mention which version of KDE and on what distro so I can't comment too deeply.


Pretty much every distro... Suse, and Fedora, namely. This was KDE 3.5.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


However if an application's icon bounces but fails to launch that is actually a good thing compared to BSOD or system freeze and it's easily fixed.


I know that, but I still see it as a problem.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


All one has to do is launch the app from command line where you will get error messages that will almost always inform you of exactly what you need to fix. If you have any doubt about what the command is just rt-clk on the icon and view "properties" and then lft-clk on "application" which will reveal the command including any switches.


I'm not a complete Linux noob; I would do that, but the problem is that this only happens once in a while. I'd have to load programs from the CLI every time and hope that the error somehow occurs that time.


----------



## enorbet2

Hey man
I want you to know it was not my intention to disrespect you in any way. The simple truth is I hadn't checked out the poster and was just responding to the post. The choice to be thorough and basic wasn't meant to single you out, it was meant to be helpful as much for the whole group as the poster which turned out to be you.

I am as certain as one can be that your problem. and yes, I agree it is a problem if a lesser one compared to a system crash or app freeze, has absolutely nothing to do with KDE. I am not so theoretical or new as to believe the myth that digital code executes in precisely the exact same way every time, there are some variables. However when it comes to an app launch from code written as tightly as the KDE team puts together and *especially* in code so mature and stable as is in v 3.5 for it to be intermittent due to a software bug is just highly unlikely, especially on 2 different distros. I'm convinced it is a hardware problem since you've discovered no pattern to the failure.

I've checked out your system specs since at first I suspected a heat issue. That is unlikely in your case since the cooling specs you list are very impressive, perhaps due to the ICE2 heatpipe system. All I know is that a 12 degree C rise delta T from idle to full load is excellent even on a water cooled system let alone air cooled. Unless there is some hot spot not getting measured, or for some reasons your sensors or metering software is off, heat is not a likely problem. Much more likely is the tight timing on your ram. I realize you chose quality ram as I use OCZ Platinum myself but either the ram timiing or the cpu overclock must be at fault since this "feels" like a rounding off calculation problem. It might be worthwhile to run Prime95 Torture Test. If your system is truly stable at a given timing it should run with zero errors for many hours. I usually let mine run overnight and into the next day trying to get close to 24 hours w/o failure.

The only other alternative if you're convinced you have a completely stable system is to fire up IRC since it is possible to ask developers from the KDE team in real time and have them run you through some test procedures. I'd love to hear about this but I'll be shocked if I'm wrong and it is a software bug and not a hardware issue. Interesting problem for sure. Good luck


----------



## enorbet2

Crap! I forgot to mention that it is worthwhile for hundredgunner to check his voltages. An OEM 250 watt power supply may be a little weak for such a system. The nvidia 7950 GT uses over 100 watts at idle and nearly 200 watts under load!! This obviously leaves very little power for any system and especially one with a powerful CPU running at close to 3 GHz.

One of the reasons it is worth spending the extra bucks for a single rail power supply is that ALL the rated power is available, that is unless it's one of those supplies that get rated at labs in antarctica instead of at actual operating temps where the output can fall down by 30%.

HundredGunner if your power supply is not a single rail design it is definitely a problem since the full output will not be available on any one rail which means your video card's starvation is a given. For example a 2 rail design most commonly would have half power on one rail and half on the other. 125 watts would be a huge failure on a 200 watt card.

Add to that the other failings of OEM power supplies, especially with insufficient wattage to begin with, and you can see this is a huge issue, a far bigger issue than any software bug should it even exist
Jimmy


----------



## dangerousHobo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Hey Guys

With Slackware, my main OpSys, I have upgraded for every version since v7 and it's on 12.1 now. Slackware even turns on all the goodies default with KDE. For example even if you use the "Details" view in the KDE File Manager, a mouseover shows properties on files and on picture files, like jpegs, bmps etc it shows a large thumbnail on a mouseover. T*his is default and yet in Slack, every version I've used everything including KDE is absolutely rock solid. Since v9 of Slackware, whether on a fresh install or system upgrade, I have never had a crash of the whole system. *I've had an app freeze rarely but even with 150+ processes running ALWAYS I've been able to kill the frozen process. Even among these rarities KDE was never at fault.


Thats why Slackware is the oldest dirsto. Pat makes sure every release is perfect. 12.2 should be released soon!


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Crap! I forgot to mention that it is worthwhile for hundredgunner to check his voltages. An OEM 250 watt power supply may be a little weak for such a system. The nvidia 7950 GT uses over 100 watts at idle and nearly 200 watts under load!! This obviously leaves very little power for any system and especially one with a powerful CPU running at close to 3 GHz.


It's a SFF PC, the 250 watt PSU is what you get with it. Though if it is the PSU being overloaded, you can drop in a 450W PSU.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Hey man
I want you to know it was not my intention to disrespect you in any way. The simple truth is I hadn't checked out the poster and was just responding to the post. The choice to be thorough and basic wasn't meant to single you out, it was meant to be helpful as much for the whole group as the poster which turned out to be you.


I understand. I was trying to figure a way to write what I did without coming off as "duh, I'm not a noob," but I couldn't so I just went with it









Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


I am as certain as one can be that your problem. and yes, I agree it is a problem if a lesser one compared to a system crash or app freeze, has absolutely nothing to do with KDE.


I can't say with any certainty that it's KDE's fault or not, but I've only noticed that it has happened to me in KDE more than other DEs. This goes for Suse (10.0, 10.3), Fedora (6, 7, 8), and Sabayon (not sure which version it was).



enorbet2 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *enorbet2*
> 
> 
> Crap! I forgot to mention that it is worthwhile for hundredgunner to check his voltages. An OEM 250 watt power supply may be a little weak for such a system. The nvidia 7950 GT uses over 100 watts at idle and nearly 200 watts under load!! This obviously leaves very little power for any system and especially one with a powerful CPU running at close to 3 GHz.
> 
> 
> Honestly, the problems I've had were a couple years ago. That's when I used Linux as my main distro most of the time. But if it were really a stability issue on the lines of voltage shortage, I think a system lockup would be the symptom rather than failure to open a program. I use Linux less now, but I still sometimes get that failure to open program thing, and I notice that it happens in KDE but not XFCE (which I have my dad using at work; I use that system on occasion).
> 
> I'll soon be using a system with Debian (+ GNOME) as my secondary computer, so I'll see what happens in regards to this issue.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *enorbet2*
> 
> 
> HundredGunner if your power supply is not a single rail design it is definitely a problem since the full output will not be available on any one rail which means your video card's starvation is a given. For example a 2 rail design most commonly would have half power on one rail and half on the other. 125 watts would be a huge failure on a 200 watt card.
> 
> 
> I've used "PSU calculators" on a few sites, and they all estimate my usage at around 230W full load. I think it should be ok; I played games all summer on it just fine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did stop the overclocking, though.


----------



## murderbymodem

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
That's OK, SUSE didn't feel right to me. It never has. And I never got my wireless working under it. So off it went.

But you know, the great thing about Linux is that we have all these different choices for different people's tastes and circumstances.
















I would never, ever use SUSE.
http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/04/...t-cooperation/

Anyway, I was actually having a problem with KDE4 where Dolphan would not allow me to access to my windows partitions correctly, but I solved the problem by installing Openbox and using the "KDE w/ Openbox" option. Still basically KDE4, I don't really notice a difference except my problem being fixed, but apparently it is like Openbox on top of KDE4


----------



## Tator Tot

I love this thread, but I must agree with the SuSe hate. I've never liked it either.

Though, I haven't tried many distros.

I fall back on a few though.

Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Meedio OS(HTPC)


----------



## srynznfyra

If you want to run your windows games under Linux, there is a brilliant program called wine. Basically, wine 'emulates' the windows environment to that windows programs can run on Linux. Loads of windows programs run perfectly with wine (alot of them games). Even more windows programs run with wine, albeit with some flaws such as bugs etc. This is because wine is still in quite an early stage of development. They're fixing bugs all the time. I haven't actually had many programs that don't run at all under wine. You can go to appdb.winehq.org to browse a huge index of all the windows programs that are known to run with wine.

To install wine under ubuntu, you can either search for it in synaptic, or open up a Terminal (applications > accessories > terminal), and type in:

sudo apt-get install wine

then press <enter>. Type in your password and it'll install wine for you! Once you have installed wine, fetch you're .exe file from wherever it is, right click it, and select open with > wine windows emulator.

Here are some programs that I remember running under wine (or have seen running under wine) with little or no flaws:
Macromedia Flash Professional 8 (CS3 didn't work for me)
GTA San Andreas
GTA Vice City
Portal
Half Life 2
Adobe Photoshop (had bugs with this, GIMP is fine for most everybody)
Firefox 2 + 3
Internet Exploder
Macromedia Dreamweaver 8
TRS2006 (a train sim that I played yonks ago)
and many others

Linux isn't all that bad for gaming, and in fact if people made games that ran natively with Linux, it would be an incredible gaming platform. The reason there's no games is because there's not enough users! C'mon everybody, use Linux!!! You can paint fire onto your screen, make sparks flicker around your mouse cursor, even turn your desktop into a cube or a sphere....talking of which:

A point that the original author missed: virtual desktops. With these you can have froup to 32 workspaces, each with they're own individual windows on them and everything, so that you can multitask more. It's like having up to 32 monitors in one! (well you can have 4 or something if you find 32 a bit overwhelming, I have 4)

-Fela


----------



## reezin14

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Redmist*


I would never, ever use SUSE.
http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/04/...t-cooperation/



Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


I love this thread, but I must agree with the SuSe hate. I've never liked it either.


What is it that you guys don't like about Suse? I understand the whole MS thing,is this the reason for the hate,or do you think it's really that bad of an OS?


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reezin14*


What is it that you guys don't like about Suse? I understand the whole MS thing,is this the reason for the hate,or do you think it's really that bad of an OS?



My experience was awhile back, but it was buggy, and very un user friendly towards me. That, and I had the same issue with getting WiFi to work.

Overall, its Linux, its the same stuff. Just didn't feel as inviting as other distros did.


----------



## reezin14

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tator Tot* 
My experience was awhile back, but it was buggy, and very un user friendly towards me. That, and I had the same issue with getting WiFi to work.

Overall, its Linux, its the same stuff. Just didn't feel as inviting as other distros did.

OK I see.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


My experience was awhile back, but it was buggy, and very un user friendly towards me. That, and I had the same issue with getting WiFi to work.

Overall, its Linux, its the same stuff. Just didn't feel as inviting as other distros did.


Really? Exact opposite experience here.

Suse does have some bugs, but in my experience, no more than Fedora, but maybe a little more than Ubuntu.

As for user-friendly: it's one of the most user-friendly distros I've used. If something isn't in the package manager, there are "Yast 1-click Install" files that you can download. It's one file, you download it, click it, and then install; windozers would find that very familiar. I install my nVidia graphics this way. It's just as easy, if not easier, than Ubuntu's Envy.

And Suse is the only distro I've ever been able to get working with wireless.

One of the things I liked most about Suse is Yast, the control center. It gives the OS a hub where everything comes together. In other distros, there are only loose distro-specific package managers, then generic "GNOME Sound control" and "KDE display setup." With Suse's Yast, you get a control center that is built for and around the OS. That makes the most sense to me.

Personally, Suse and Debian are my favorite distros. Suse, imo, gives the user the proper balance between ease of use and power-using.


----------



## IEATFISH

Suse was the distro that impressed me the most on first use. I had some problems later but it was mostly my fault. Even so, the installation was very clean and polished, with many options. It was the first distro I used that actually recognized my Vista partition and the 1 click install is very slick.


----------



## reezin14

Quote:



Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner*


Really? Suse, imo, gives the user the proper balance between ease of use and power-using.



I totally agree with you there,and the yast 1-click install is a great option to have.Although I have really only dabbled with a few other distro's (noob/still learning) it's my fav so far.


----------



## enorbet2

OK Look I reall am not trying to single you out nor treat this subject in a way akin to "beating a dead horse" but since this is an Overclocking forum first and a Linux thread second and it has come up, I am trying to address the issue of how important the Power Supply is and I figure anyone inot computing enough to even consider an alternative OpSys should be extremely aware of hardware issues. So I am responding to HundredGunner since it is his post that brings up the issue.

Gunner I don't know what calculator you could have used that would have concluded your system maxes out at 230 watts. While you may not have *all* of the equipment I have included below I think everyone will agree that even with just what you must have you are over the mark.

Before I go any further since more than 90% of the power consumption is in the video card here is a link to a graph put together by a 3rd party outfit that actually tested these cards instead of relying on what are often "dreamland" published specs. One important example of this everyone can see for themselves by looking at even the published spec (best case) on the label on your power supply. It should say at what temperature the specs were determined. Many of you
will be shocked to see a spec of 10 degrees centigrade. The shock will set in when you realize your ambient case temperature is over 30C at idle. Put your hand in the path of your output fan(s) and feel how much hotter the air gets at full load regardless of what any sensor reports. They are notoriously inaccurate.

Anyway here's the link

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/390/11/

Notice that some lesser cards are not cooler but rather hotter, so don't go by age or power. More powerful
units often have better design and more aggressive cooling

GeForce 7950 GT max 200 watts
Motherboard w/onbd sound min 30 watts
Floppy 5 watts
Keybd/mouse 3 watts
Hard drive (per unit) avg 25 watts
DVD drive avg 20 watts
Ram DDR (per stick) min 10 watts
Fan (per unit) min 2 watts
USB devices (per unit) avg 5 watts
AMD64 3800+ min 35 watts max 90 watts*

*note there are several different models labelled 3800+, single vs/ dual as well as different model cores and neither does HundredGunners specs indicate which one nor do most power calculators so the wattages listed are average for the range of models from lowest avg to highest avg

For the sake of conservative results let's assume that the game is only graphic intensive and not taxing the CPU. Further let's assume there is no floppy, only 1 fan, 1 stick of ram, 0 USB devices, and only 1 hard drive The total comes to 325 WATTS ! and that is very conservative since the CPU, mobo, and GPU alone equals 265!

I frankly don't see any way to add things up with the hardware Gunner's listed and come up with only 230 watts under load. However let's assume all these calculators and testers are wrong and Gunner's rig really only does max out at 230 watts. That leaves less than a 10% margin for error and when you know that PSU's are routinely off by 30% at real world operating temperatures, dude that just is walking the razor's edge in teflon shoes.

When power supplies rated output is exceeded it isn't always so that they explode or just shutdown. They often soft fail because the common result is heat and this causes drift and the drift is always downward as resistors rise in value when they are heated resulting in lower voltages.

I strongly suggest to everyone here that they setup SpeedFan if in Windows or GKrellM or KSensors in Linux and take the time to calibrate your data by writing down the voltages and temps that show up in BIOS Setup to use for your idle scores. Then run Prime95 TortureTest (it's free) in a window and watch your system cringe. Even though manufacturers often say otherwise a 5% under voltage is not acceptable. Personally I will scrap a PSU that delivers anything less than 4.9 volts for a 5V rail, or 11.75V on a 12 volt rail. I'm at idle right now but GKrellM is saying 4.97v and 12.0v respectively on my
well-worth-the-money PC Power&Cooling 600 watt Silencer.

I know that being poor seems to dictate you spend the max on CPU and maybe ram, maybe mobo and the PSU is last on the list but I am poor and I have learned that the PSU, because it literally runs everything, is extremely important and should never be an afterthought. Now, I'd sooner buy 1G less ram or a 20% slower CPU than skimp on PSU. I'm not saying everyone ought to go PC P&C (although it will likely pay back any difference in lowered power consumption due to extremely high efficiency) but I AM saying at least don't cut your margin so thin as even 20%. If your hardware maxes out at 300 Watts, it makes good sense to have at least a 400 Watt supply. Ask any electronics tech.
Hope this helps


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Hmm... Well on this site:

http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine

They rate my system at 234W, and I was even being generous by setting the system to max load with more USB devices than I would ever use.

Then I tried the Newegg PSU calculator, and they rated me at around 370W...

So I dunno, since I played games all summer with this system and only experienced crashes and lockups when I (stupidly) tried to OC the system.

And btw, I'm poor, so I spent $25 on the CPU and $35 on the RAM at the time









And as a 2nd BTW, I didn't spend much time with Linux on this system (although I used Suse as my gaming OS for about a month last year). Most of my Linux experience (including the times I had the aforementioned problems) was on my other rig, which happens to sport a 630W PSU and even weaker system specs.

Again, I don't understand how that has anything to do with an app not opening. Crashes - I can understand that, but I don't think an underspeced PSU would show symptoms by not opening an app.


----------



## enorbet2

Hey HundredGunner

In reply to your query about the kinds of failure one can expect I suppose it is impossible to be truly accurate how loered voltages will affect a given machine w/o testing that exact machine. I am an electronics tech and made my living for a number of years un repair, mod, and design but it was on analog equipment, mostly guitar amps and effects. Furthermore, although I do have some training in digital electronics, for better and for worse, the miniaturization imperative and the push for proprietary control has made it difficult to do any but the most rudimentary work on most circuit boards these days, so I no longer have that "feel" that comes from hands on

However this situation is somewhat relieved by diagnostic software. When, for example, one runs the Prime 95 Torture Test some machines will freeze, others crash, but most quit long before things get that serious because apparently the first sign of trouble, especially in floating point calculations common in math intensive apps and graphics, is the "rounding off" of results. Remember that this is a bigger issue on home PCs as compared to servers, and better workstations, since few home boxes sport error correcting ram.

I frankly don't know for a fact if the launch of a particular app is subject to rounding off, but I do suspect it is or they are in general. What I do know for certain is that given your system runs even reasonably well while power starved, I really do think you would feel the difference both at all and in a bang-for-buck way by upgrading your PSU.

I am building a budget machine right now for a friend and I just ordered a brand name, Thermaltake, 430 watt unit that I found for 40 bucks US on new egg (not knowing the forum policy is why I didn't link to it and I mention it only as an example and not a suggestion that this is what you or anyone else ought to do) and believe me it was all about price since I'd have chosen a better unit if I could have talked the guy into more money but because the order came from a system failure and not a planned upgrade, his money is tight and his desire diluted by frustration and anger at catastrophic failure that was incidentally caused by a capacitor bouncing around loose in the PSU and out of warranty.

In any case, even though the Thermaltake model is by no means first choice, there are others I wouldn't get that were cheaper. It's a decent compromise because his power needs are roughly 300 watts max (he's not a gamer and has integrated graphics) so a 430 watt SINGLE RAIL, 2 fan, unit should be sufficient. I'm poor too but 40 bucks even at a dollar a day savings takes less than 2 months to save for and it would be well worth it in performance boost (you may even be able to return to a decent OC) as well as substantially improved reliability and longevity since low voltages increase amperage and wears out mobo, cpu, video card, essentially everything.

This is really the main thrust of these few posts, to point out just how important PSUs are which so many people fail to realize and how careful research into what counts most (like single rail) can solve many problems w/o costing an arm and a leg.

Best Wishes
Jimmy


----------



## Madmaximus

Quote:

This is really the main thrust of these few posts, to point out just how important PSUs are which so many people fail to realize and how careful research into what counts most (like single rail) can solve many problems w/o costing an arm and a leg.

About two years ago I bought a PSU because it glowed blue and was 650 watts and like most people I believed that a PSU is a PSU. It worked but I couldn't get a good stable over clock. Then one day I took my rig to a friends house and when I stared it up the mother board blew and took the graphics card with it. I was with out a Rig for about a month because I made the mistake of letting Looks, Price, and Total Wattage choose my PSU. I thought all PSU's were equal that any brand was good. Before the PSU quit I had spend several nights on this site trying to figure out why I couldn't get stable overclocks three or four people said it was the PSU but I just didn't believe them.

I did a little research before buying my next PSU and I took the suggestions that were given me by members of this site and bought a PC Power & Cooling PSU and I have never bought any other brand since (I know they cost more and I am not suggesting you get one on a 40 dollar budget the Thermaltake mentioned earlier should be fine). I could tell the minute I turned the rig on that the PSU makes a big difference it was like night and day. When you have used a a computer for a while you become use to it. It is sort of like a car you drive every day, you know all of its little minor quirks. The first thing I noticed when I installed a quality PSU is that most of the quirks went away. I like most people had always blamed all my quirks on MS Windows but most of them disappeared when I installed a quality PSU.

The PSU is the heart beat of the system literally. It is vital to performance and stability.


----------



## laurie

Been running Ubuntu for a few days and mostly love it.
I cant get surround working with my x-fi and graphics seem to lag on my Ultra but for the most part its just so nice.


----------



## enorbet2

If you find your graphics lagging you can avail yourself of one of the many advantages of Linux, documentation and logging. This comes when people build and develop things for the love of it instead of just as a job. If you look in the "/var/log" directory you will see a number of very useful logs that change and update every time you boot, start X (the gui desktop), install or run some software, or update when you mount a drive, whether internal or external, whether hard drive, optical, or usb device.

In the Xorg log which can be opened with any and all editors you will see the step by step process of how the gui loads with all it's hardware and software support such as mouse and keyboard options and of special interest to Laurie, exactly if and how the video driver and all it's extensions load, or if they don't.

So specifically for Laurie it would be a good idea to open up the Xorg log to insure the nvidia driver installed at all (or run NVSettings for that and other details and configurations) but mainly to see if any component in the driver especially having to do with acceleration logged any problems. nVidia has excellent documentation outlining how to troubleshoot, fix, and/or modify various performance settings and effects.

I'm not surprised but certainly pleased that Laurie is enjoying Ubuntu (I hope it's Kubuntu) as a first impression. Just wait till you discover how easy it is to make powerful changes to suit your own ways of doing things.

BTW for longtime Photoshop users that are having trouble finding their way around GIMP, you can download a variation of GIMP (IIRC it's called GimpShop or something like that) that basically alters the look, menues, etc so that it is much more friendly to Photoshop junkies. Check it out.
Jimmy


----------



## enorbet2

Although this isn't up-to-the-minute new, it is occurring with KDE v4. A major part of the heavy revisions, both improvements and problems, with KDE v4 is that it's design specifically makes concessions to make it work on a windows machine. Yup a KDE installer for windows. Initially if I understand correctly it just installs some of the more awesome apps available through KDE, like Amarok. However I'm certain it is a devious conspiracy of cyber terrorists who wish to seduce us all with cooler, better software that is either free of monetary cost or just cheaper and further wedge the whole OSS movement.

Geez Monkey Boy Ballmer can't get no respect. The sheer audacity of these hackers is outrageous!
<grin>
Jimmy


----------



## error5005

Linux is great for the average home user, but I can't play pc games on it


----------



## IEATFISH

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error5005* 
Linux is great for the average home user, but I can't play pc games on it









No, you can't play your windows games on it (and that isn't even remotely true, there are plenty of native Windows games that can be run with Linux). Common misconception that gaming dies with the switch to Linux.


----------



## laurie

Thanks Jimmy. Im running Ubuntu at the moment and love it!
I will attach my log in case I'm missing the issue but it all looks sound as far as I can tell









Edit. Its flash that's lagging not anything to do with my GPU.
Is there anything I can do to fix this?
I'm using the latest Linux release.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error5005* 
Linux is great for the average home user, but I can't play pc games on it









Not _entirely_ true









sorry for bloating the thread


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz again Laurie
I'm glad you like Ubuntu and I have to admit it has really improved of late. I created a thumbdrive install of the latest Kubuntu and it is really quite amazing. It's not only incredibly fast for a LIVE install but I am very impressed with it's improvements in package management which is something I normally don't care about at all. However on a LIVE install the ability to download and install drivers as well as apps on-the-fly vastly improves the capabilities.

Specific to your graphics problem I have a few concerns, some info and some advice. First off I'm attaching my Xorg log so you can see how one that completes correctly (and hopefully formats correctly) so you can see how it should look. You are getting a repeated warning (I'm not sure why it isn't preceded by the "W" for "warning" symbol) that something in your mouse server seems caught in an infinite loop.

Here's a proper log:

Well I'm not sure if it's going to appear right here so sorry for any confusion. Just check out XorgLog.txt wherever it appears and notice how much more stuff loads with my nVidia driver and how it all completes.

As for the mouse server loop, which could be chewing CPU cycles (you should run KSysguard or better, "psaux" from command line to determine if something is taxing your CPU. Just look for the percentage CPU usage column. Remember in Linux scrolling as well as "Page Up" and "Page Down" works from command line whether windowed or full screen. An aside - checkout a screenshot of ETerm if you'd like to see a bling-bling terminal. One way to avoid mouse server troubles is to cease depending on automatics (even though they've gotten rather great, lean n mean still rulz) by specifying exactly what you have and want in your "xorg.conf" file usually found in the "/etc/X11" directory. Here's an example of mine, showing only the mouse section:

Section "InputDevice"

# ChordMiddle is an option for some 3-button Logitech mice
# Option "ChordMiddle"
Identifier "Mouse1"
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "ExplorerPS/2"
Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
Option "Buttons" "5"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
Option "SendCoreEvents"
EndSection

The last bit of info came from googling around for flash linux problems. There were very few hits so it may take a simple trial install of an earlier version to see if it applies to you. Here's an article:

http://tinyurl.com/5dkwqf

The only other articles I see on slow flash in Linux seem to be with Opera. I'm using Firefox with the v 9 flash plugin and I can watch YouTube videos, even those in High Quality and full screen, with nary a hiccup (even if it's Ian Curtis spaz dancing hehehe).

The only other things I can imagine that would impact flash is download speed (for streaming) and you can test that by downloading the .flv file and playing it in any number of flash compatible players (I like VLC) or possibly (and this is a longshot) it's worth checking to see if your harddrives defaulted to proper DMA speed. IIRC the command is "hdparm -i /dev/foo" where "-i" is the switch for info and "dev/foo" is just tje generic term for whatever your hard drive(s) is/are eg: /dev/hda, dev/sda.

Once you test and figure out the cause the fix in any of the above cases is fortunately very easy. It's my understanding that the latest flash has problems in Mac as well as Linux because of h264 so if you aren't using your PC for a home theater it's no loss at all to drop back to v9.

Best wishes
Jimmy


----------



## laurie

thanks for such an in depth reply.
I can't get either command to execute in terminal.
Im going to downgrade flash and see if it helps.
just been using an animated window manager and it is also not smooth at all.
So this could be an issue with the nvidia drivers too.

Thanks for all the help. Sorry I'm a bit useless at acting on it. Its all very new to me still.

Now if only I could work out how to go back down to 9.
Its a pretty steep learning curve this Linux milarky


----------



## enorbet2

OOps! Sorry messed up some.

1) hdparm only runs for root so you either have to "su" or "sudo". or open an Admin terminal and give the proper password to run "hdparm". Unfortunately some SATA drives give ambiguous info since they are serial rather than parallell so run it just for reference or better use an hdd benchmarking app like bonnie or iozone to see if you are getting the hdd speed you should.

2) Typo- "psaux" should have read "ps aux". This can be run as user or root with only slight variations on output. CPU usage will be essentially equal.

Since I got conflicting stories on the latest Flash for Linux, apparently especially a problem with Firefox and nVidia cards (both faves of mine) I figured I'd try it out.

Well, the stories have some merit. While SeaMonkey performed with no problems at all, at first Firefox crashed when I tried to go fullscreen with a flash video. There were improvements however so I persevered. All it took was rt. clicking on the vid to access flash settings where I disabled "hardware accelleration" and it now works flawlessly everywhere. Incidentally the disabling has no essential effect otherwise since on a card like you and I have 2D is crazy good and YouTube (or any other flash site) has yet to make 3D flash vids.

Hope this helps (lean on that mouse server problem) and you're welcome
Jimmy


----------



## laurie

I can full screen a you tube video smoothly but if I move my mouse it gets very jerky.


----------



## enorbet2

Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. Did you notice the pattern? You're Xprg log shows that some sort of emulation associated with the mouse is caught in an infinite loop (cpu loading) and moving your mouse causes jerkiness in flash, an intensive cpu load. Where did your mouse lines in "xorg.conf" come from? Automatic? Here's one example of entries for your mouse that doesn't get caught in a loop:

Section "ServerLayout"

Identifier "X.org Configured"
Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0
InputDevice "Evdev Mouse" "CorePointer"
InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Evdev Mouse"
Driver "evdev"
Option "Device" "/dev/input/event2"
Option "Name" "SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser"
Option "evBits" "+1-2"
Option "keyBits" "~272-287"
Option "relBits" "~0-2 ~6 ~8"
Option "Pass" "3"
Option "CorePointer"
EndSection

If you get lazy or frustrated and don't research what settings are best for your mouse and just want to try the above settings PLEASE follow this safety rule.

Copy your working "xorg.conf" ro something like "xorg.conf.ok" so when you modify the original if X refuses to load you can just copy "xorg.conf.ok" to "xorg.conf" and overwrite the one that failed. Please also be certain that you know how to do the copy. If X fails to load it should drop you to console where you need to use specific copy commands that state the file names and folders. This, BTW, us an important advantage of distros or setups that initially boot to console rather than directly to X. One KNOWS a failure will drop to console.

The other option is to use a LIVE CD so you can use your file manager or whatever GUI pointy-clicky thing you prefer to get X working again. Whatever you do fix that emulator mouse mess.
Good Luck
Jimmy


----------



## legoman786

Going back to Linux as soon as my 320GB HD arrives...

The 320 and 500 and going to remain primarily Windows drives and the 80GB that I'm using as my main OS drive will be reassigned to Fedora or Ubuntu... I haven't decided yet.


----------



## enorbet2

Don't be offended if I am getting too basic but it's safer than fixing stuff *after* it fails.

Remember that every instance in the xorg.conf file MUST match. Example: You can't use "kbd" in one place and "keyboard" in another. So if you copy the previous mouse stuff to a test "xorg.conf" make sure all entries, server layout too, matches.

You'll feel like Wonder Woman when you lick this


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laurie* 
I can full screen a you tube video smoothly but if I move my mouse it gets very jerky.

On an unrelated note, +1 on your sig. Overclockers.co.uk suck, customer service is terrible beyond belief.


----------



## laurie

Thanks guys.
I have got this far.
Still the mouse seems to be using 40% of the CPU.

Edit, and now its not. Perhaps something else was running.

Could it be because its polling rate is 1000? And this is saved to the mouse memory.
And yeah all this stuff is auto just from plugging the mouse in.

(II) config/hal: Adding input device SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: always reports core events
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Device: "/dev/input/event4"
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Found x and y relative axes
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Found 7 mouse buttons
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Found keys
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Configuring as mouse
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Configuring as keyboard
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser" (type: KEYBOARD)
(**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev"
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: xkb_rules: "evdev"
(**) Option "xkb_model" "pc105"
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: xkb_model: "pc105"
(**) Option "xkb_layout" "gb"
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: xkb_layout: "gb"
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: YAxisMapping: buttons 4 and 5
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: EmulateWheelButton: 4, EmulateWheelInertia: 10, EmulateWheelTimeout: 200


----------



## Dawlish7

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


On an unrelated note, +1 on your sig. Overclockers.co.uk suck, customer service is terrible beyond belief.


QFT Scan and ebuyer much better imo


----------



## laurie

Oh dear.
This repeats, a lot.
Perhaps a re install?

(II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/input//evdev_drv.so
(II) Module evdev: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
compiled for 1.5.2, module version = 2.0.99
Module class: X.Org XInput Driver
ABI class: X.Org XInput driver, version 2.1
(**) Macintosh mouse button emulation: always reports core events
(**) Macintosh mouse button emulation: Device: "/dev/input/event0"
(II) Macintosh mouse button emulation: Found x and y relative axes
(II) Macintosh mouse button emulation: Found 3 mouse buttons
(II) Macintosh mouse button emulation: Configuring as mouse
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Macintosh mouse button emulation" (type: MOUSE)
(**) Macintosh mouse button emulation: YAxisMapping: buttons 4 and 5
(**) Macintosh mouse button emulation: EmulateWheelButton: 4, EmulateWheelInertia: 10, EmulateWheelTimeout: 200
(II) config/hal: Adding input device AT Translated Set 2 keyboard
(**) AT Translated Set 2 keyboard: always reports core events
(**) AT Translated Set 2 keyboard: Device: "/dev/input/event1"
(II) AT Translated Set 2 keyboard: Found keys
(II) AT Translated Set 2 keyboard: Configuring as keyboard
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard" (type: KEYBOARD)
(**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev"
(**) AT Translated Set 2 keyboard: xkb_rules: "evdev"
(**) Option "xkb_model" "pc105"
(**) AT Translated Set 2 keyboard: xkb_model: "pc105"
(**) Option "xkb_layout" "gb"
(**) AT Translated Set 2 keyboard: xkb_layout: "gb"
(II) config/hal: Adding input device USB Keyboard
(**) USB Keyboard: always reports core events
(**) USB Keyboard: Device: "/dev/input/event4"
(II) USB Keyboard: Found keys
(II) USB Keyboard: Configuring as keyboard
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device " USB Keyboard" (type: KEYBOARD)
(**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev"
(**) USB Keyboard: xkb_rules: "evdev"
(**) Option "xkb_model" "pc105"
(**) USB Keyboard: xkb_model: "pc105"
(**) Option "xkb_layout" "gb"
(**) USB Keyboard: xkb_layout: "gb"
(II) config/hal: Adding input device USB Keyboard
(**) USB Keyboard: always reports core events
(**) USB Keyboard: Device: "/dev/input/event3"
(II) USB Keyboard: Found keys
(II) USB Keyboard: Configuring as keyboard
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device " USB Keyboard" (type: KEYBOARD)
(**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev"
(**) USB Keyboard: xkb_rules: "evdev"
(**) Option "xkb_model" "pc105"
(**) USB Keyboard: xkb_model: "pc105"
(**) Option "xkb_layout" "gb"
(**) USB Keyboard: xkb_layout: "gb"
(II) config/hal: Adding input device SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: always reports core events
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Device: "/dev/input/event2"
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Found x and y relative axes
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Found 7 mouse buttons
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Found keys
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Configuring as mouse
(II) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: Configuring as keyboard
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser" (type: KEYBOARD)
(**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev"
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: xkb_rules: "evdev"
(**) Option "xkb_model" "pc105"
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: xkb_model: "pc105"
(**) Option "xkb_layout" "gb"
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: xkb_layout: "gb"
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: YAxisMapping: buttons 4 and 5
(**) SteelSeries ApS Ikari Laser: EmulateWheelButton: 4, EmulateWheelInertia: 10, EmulateWheelTimeout: 200
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.
[mi] mieqEnequeue: out-of-order valuator event; dropping.
[mi] EQ overflowing. The server is probably stuck in an infinite loop.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


On an unrelated note, +1 on your sig. Overclockers.co.uk suck, customer service is terrible beyond belief.


Funny you should say that because they gave me a free motherboard (sig rig). As one was broken and i asked for a replacement, they said i could just keep the broken one.

Got it working about a day later too. Still don't use them though.


----------



## laurie

Ok quickly.
Motherboard died so they said send it back with the box and all cables etc.
They sent me a board with no box no cables no sound card nothing.
Also the heatsink was crushed and not from shipping as the plain box was fine.

The didnt want to take it back.

I ordered a Crosshair to use whilst I sorted out the problem with the m2n3s.
It had some issues so I rang tech support.
They said 'oh its faulty send it back'
Few days later it comes back with a tested and found not to be faulty.
I was charged for the service.
I rang and spoke to a manager who said the tech people can only go on what you say so its my fault. I didn't once say its faulty or I should return it, they did.

Eventually I got a new replacement for the m2n32 and fixed the Crosshair myself.

I was never refunded for the charge.

I will never use them again and recommend against them to every person I have met since









*
ON TOPIC







*

I removed the app that adds animations etc (I forget the name starts with a C)
And now the infinite loop is gone.
This was after goggling the issue.
Is there another way to get pretty effects. My Girlfriend likes them


----------



## murderbymodem

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 

As for user-friendly: it's one of the most user-friendly distros I've used. If something isn't in the package manager, there are "Yast 1-click Install" files that you can download.

Well, maybe you think otherwise, but dosen't an install file that you download go against the Linux norm? In windows you download .exe files to install programs, in Linux you use the package manager.

They should just put everything in the package manager.

but yes ultimately them paying royalties to M$ is what causes me not to use it. If it wasn't for that, I agree SuSe is a quality OS and may even use it instead of Fedora, but dealing with M$ is a dealbreaker.

Fedora / RHEL / CentOS > OpenSuSe / whatevernovellcallstheirenterpriselinux


----------



## enorbet2

Yeah the repetition and reference to "infinite loop: in your first lof post was what I meant/
Do you mean Compiz or Compiz-Fusion? If so there are lots of online articles about various settings in xorg.conf that can help.

In the interim I'm trying to understand your log messages. Why would your mouse emulate a mac button? Aren't they still single button mice?

What does EQ refer to on a mouse?

I've checked out the mouse or mice from SteelSeries and them seem awesome what with no drivers needed but that makes me wonder what is calling for all this support such as "wheel inertia". If I were you I'd really look into your xorg.conf as simply specifying "evdev mouse" as per my previous post may make all the difference since evdev is killer sweet and is at least marginally being used according to your log. Look into what others are spec'ing in xorg.conf for similar mice
Jimmy


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *laurie*


Could it be because its polling rate is 1000? And this is saved to the mouse memory.


I don't see how that can be saved to the mouse. It's the OS and the hardware through which the polling rate is controlled, not the individual USB device. At least I think.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Redmist*


Well, maybe you think otherwise, but dosen't an install file that you download go against the Linux norm? In windows you download .exe files to install programs, in Linux you use the package manager.


What the file technically does is add a repository to the package manager and automate the install process through the package manager. So you're doing all of that in one step: downloading a file, using the package manager, and installing the program.

It's a bit unorthodox in the way that you would go to strange, foreign 3rd party sites to download a file instead of doing everything in-house straight from the package manager, but the end result is the same. And it makes it easier for those windows-inclined.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Redmist*


They should just put everything in the package manager.


You can't have every repository in the world included in your package manager. That would just be madness.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Redmist*


Fedora / RHEL / CentOS > OpenSuSe / whatevernovellcallstheirenterpriselinux


I'm not sure what the whole deal between Novell and m$ is, although I saw billboards about it about a year ago. As far as quality goes, I think the RH family is built to be a more solid OS than Suse. Suse has made major improvements, but I think RH/Fedora is still a bit better in terms of the quality of the OS. I just like Suse because it's easier to use and provides about as much "power-using" functionality.


----------



## laurie

I have re installed with Ubuntu 64 and the loop is gone. CPU cores are no longer acting strange.
I cant get rid of the mac emulation crap to do with the mouse but it does not seem to be causing any problems.

The mouse has onboard memory to hold the cpi settings. The app to adjust it also lets you set the polling rate.
I assumed this was saved to the rom on the mouse too I could be wrong of course.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

I still can't get flash 9 installed but will keep trying.

x


----------



## laurie

AAAAaaand loop is back on a fresh install.
Any harm in just leaving it?


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
You already know the answer to the question if there's harm - it isn't technically damage but a permanent 40% CPU is both wasteful and apparently a problem if you move your mouse while playing Flash vids. That's basically it.

If you haven't already (you haven't said) you really ought to look into creating your own manually edited xorg.conf so your mouse only does what you tell it to do. That Ikari is, as you know, extremely sophisticated (kriminy it has it's own built in lcd display for cryin' out loud) so it's up to you to rein it in. I sent here a sample of the mouse section for a similar mouse I found in 3 minutes of google. I also gave you a foolproof method for protecting your system should any entry be wrong or just mis-written.

I know it can seem maybe primitive and/or scary to edit or have to edit a configuration file to get what you want but I assure you it will set you free and "turn on the power" once you learn how much you can tailor your OpSys with just a little typing. If you feel uncomfortable about repairing a problem by launching a LiveCD to get back into your main system (which can be necessary if you don't have the means to boot to console in order to copy) there are numerous boot floppies downloadable whether Lilo or Grub and often any install CD or floppy will give you the option to type in boot parameters instead of going to install.

An example would be if we assume your root partition is /dev/hda1

"mount root=/dev/hda1 ro"

which will cause it to stop booting from the floppy, thumbdrive or CD and switch to the hard drive partition where your system is installed. If your system tries to go to X and fails often just a "Ctrl-Alt-Backspace" will drop you back to console where you can use the "cp" copy command. Just write down the name of your backup xorg.conf and note where it's located.

However if you really want an easy thrill just go here:

http://tinyurl.com/5h8wyt

or here for windows

http://tinyurl.com/5q3gux

All you need is a 1Gig thunbdrive and the knowledge of what f key to press to bring up your mobo's boot device selector menu. I subbed Kubuntu for Ubuntu for the thumbdrive because I vastly prefer the "kfmclient" Konqueror file manager over all others with the possible exception of Krusader. On thumbdrive it is *so* FAST! and even can downolad drivers and apps on-the-fly.

One last thing - People need to get over the windows induced pavlovian training that reboots and reinstalls solve everything or are even necessary when dealing with linux. This is because windows is all interrelated and shares so much within the OpSys that if one thing fails the whole house of cards can tumble down. Linux is not built like that. No single app or function has that kind of "power" because all apps are built essentially standalone and subject to, not a part of, the OpSys.

Bottom line: If you can boot to the most basic of runtimes in Linux, all is fixable and fairly easy. There's no need to fix what ain't broken and chance losing important personal settings and data. This is part of why Linux r0x so hard.

Jimmy


----------



## enorbet2

Grretz All
I though some might like to get an example of just how robust Linux really is especially when it comes to managing memory.

Gkrellm is a permanent applet on my desktop because it is an awesome dashboard that does lots of other things (email alerts, music player/launcher) but it's most basic usage is metering. It has excellent displays of voltages and temperatures, loads on CPU, network, hard drives and opticals, swap usage, running processes and number of users logged in (a good hacker alarm). I mention this because it shows that it's easy to watch in real time what happens in an infinite loop.

I created a script that would cause a kind of loop failure fairly common in windows where conscutive spawning occurs in a runaway loop just to see when Linux would "give up the ghost" and freeze or crash. This was on a lousy Celeron II OC'd from 1.4GHz to 1.8GHz with 512MB ram and a swap partition of only 512MB.

By the time it got to 243 processes amd 99% CPU my mouse still moved and it was possible to still type in console though the display of characters grew increasingly delayed. Remember that windows has extreme difficulty running 90 processes. At 250 my mouse stopped working but Ctrl-Alt-Backspace succeeded after a moment at restarting X which because I boot to console and type in "kdm" for the display manager and login screen, dropped me back to login. Even under such extreme conditions I did not have to hit the reset button or even reboot at all. I simply logged back in and all was well.

That is solid! and that's part of why I fscking LOVE linux!
It's BURLY
Jimmy


----------



## laurie

Thats a great post!
Thanks again.
I do intend to learn Linux and have asked for some books for christmas








I think I have this fixed.
I ran sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg and changed the first option to yes.
The loop seems to be gone. I will keep an eye on it but it seems fine and the cpu is at 3 - 5 percent on the desktop wiggling the mouse.


----------



## enorbet2

I hope Lattyware doesn't mind that I've added to his greater challenge to try Linux at all. There were very few responses to bolster worries about KDE despite the fact that KDE4 is such a major upgrade and fundamental change and I take that as a good thing.

It would be way cool if people would chime in and report if they've tried the thumbdrive Live distro. It might be good to mention that these Live distros can be customized to include all sorts of diagnostic and fixit tools even including windows password resetters. There was a great article in CPU magazine that tells how to combine The Ultimate Boot CD with Ubuntu or Kubuntu on a USB thumbdrive. Awesome set of tools in the palm of your hand and UBCD is a must for overclockers.
Happy Holidays
Jimmy


----------



## legoman786

Fedora installer checked the DVD, then rejected it...


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *legoman786* 
Fedora installer checked the DVD, then rejected it...









It does that a lot. If you're 100% sure you burned it correctly, then skip it. But if it wasn't burned correctly, then the install will crash and burn later on.


----------



## legoman786

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
It does that a lot. If you're 100% sure you burned it correctly, then skip it. But if it wasn't burned correctly, then the install will crash and burn later on.

I used Alcohol 120% to burn it straight from the image. I'll give it a try again tonight.


----------



## Transhour

yeah i had the prob with fedora, but skipping that step, didn't have any probs installing it.


----------



## SilentStryke

Ive read your post and want to use linux but, you say use windows for games and linux for "everything else".

Now I am going to college and we use Maya/3dsmax/Adobe(all). Not other freeware programs the real thing. Will these programs work on linux?

If not, then if I cant game and/or use the programs that I need what use do I have for it, besides browsing the internet which it seems like all its good for is freeware and internet/coding (which can all be done in windows).

I know people have stated this many times and it gets redundant, but there is no reason to use linux from my standpoint. The only thing your gonna get is hardware and compatability issuses with programs.

This is not a flame. This is truth.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *SilentStryke*


Ive read your post and want to use linux but, you say use windows for games and linux for "everything else".

Now I am going to college and we use Maya/3dsmax/Adobe(all). Not other freeware programs the real thing. Will these programs work on linux?

If not, then if I cant game and/or use the programs that I need what use do I have for it, besides browsing the internet which it seems like all its good for is freeware and internet/coding (which can all be done in windows).

I know people have stated this many times and it gets redundant, but there is no reason to use linux from my standpoint. The only thing your gonna get is hardware and compatability issuses with programs.

This is not a flame. This is truth.


No, those apps are windows only, and unless you want to use Blender/The GIMP instead of the tools like Maya/Photoshop - which I understand isn't an option for some, then you do have to run windows for these apps, I concede this.

However, if you try running Linux, you might realise it is worth booting again to use Linux for everything else, especially for programming. Programming under Linux is so much better. Everyone who contributes to Linux is a FOSS programmer, so you get catered to nicely under Linux.


----------



## SilentStryke

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


No, those apps are windows only, and unless you want to use Blender/The GIMP instead of the tools like Maya/Photoshop - which I understand isn't an option for some, then you do have to run windows for these apps, I concede this.

However, if you try running Linux, you might realise it is worth booting again to use Linux for everything else, especially for programming. Programming under Linux is so much better. Everyone who contributes to Linux is a FOSS programmer, so you get catered to nicely under Linux.


Well I dont program so what is "everything else" hehe.
I already have office. Is there a reason to install linux just to use the free alternative to office? Im sorry I just dont see a need for it









Once again no direspect, to Linux users.


----------



## error10

No problem. Linux is not for everybody -- YET! But you might try it anyway; perhaps Maya, 3dsmax, and Adobe CS3 or whatever just might work.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


No problem. Linux is not for everybody -- YET! But you might try it anyway; perhaps Maya, 3dsmax, and Adobe CS3 or whatever just might work.


None of them will work well enough in wine.

However, you might change your mind in the future, if these apps get ported. Linux is gaining adaptation fast, and these proffesional apps will get ported at some point.


----------



## SilentStryke

If it does support these programs you can be garenteed, unbuntu will be installed on my machine









Until then, Ill just quietly wait. Continuing to feed Bill Gates, hey someone has to pay for his 500,000 dollar vehicles. :|


----------



## error10

3D Studio Max runs with varying degrees of success in Wine.

Autodesk Maya has a native Linux version.

Adobe varies by particular app.


----------



## kneeki

I wish Linux would get DirectX support. =(


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


3D Studio Max runs with varying degrees of success in Wine.

Autodesk Maya has a native Linux version.

Adobe varies by particular app.


Never knew there was a Linux version of Maya, although it would make sense for rendering farms.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *kneeki*


I wish Linux would get DirectX support. =(


Don't wish that, 
a) It's impossible, M$ would never release it.
b) It'd be better for games to support OpenGL.


----------



## error10

Hm, OpenGL for games...

Pros:
Easier to port, so:
More market share.

Cons:
Better programmers needed, so:
Game may cost more.

The Quake experiment showed that Linux gaming is indeed possible, but at the time there just wasn't enough demand for the Linux version of the game. With Linux desktop adoption accelerating at a rapid pace, the numbers may work out differently today.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Hm, OpenGL for games...

Pros:
Easier to port, so:
More market share.

Cons:
Better programmers needed, so:
Game may cost more.

The Quake experiment showed that Linux gaming is indeed possible, but at the time there just wasn't enough demand for the Linux version of the game. With Linux desktop adoption accelerating at a rapid pace, the numbers may work out differently today.


In fairness, you don't need to be a better programmer per-say to use OpenGL, you just have to have experience using it, and as DirectX is all people use at the moment...

Still, it does mean there could be some good jobs out there for people who take the time to work with OpenGL.


----------



## Deegan

about 2 weeks ago i used a spare hd i had and installed ubuntu 8.10. unless im gaming or benching i dont even boot into windows anymore. i installed wine,amarok,compiz and my nvidia drivers and i was good to go. it was all super easy to set up. i cant believe i didnt really try this before. i would like to try some other distros that arent as user friendly and i would have to manually set up. any suggestions?


----------



## lattyware

Well, I'm a huge Arch Linux fan. It's not easy to do, but it's good fun if you like that kind of thing, and a good challenge, and not too hard in actuality. Not only that, but you get to build a system *exactly* as you like. If you do go for it, make sure to have the install guide either printed out or on another device.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Well, I'm a huge Arch Linux fan. *It's not easy to do*, but it's good fun if you like that kind of thing, and a good challenge, and not too hard in actuality. Not only that, but you get to build a system *exactly* as you like. If you do go for it, make sure to have the install guide either printed out or on another device.

Sorry but if i can install it first time it's not hard









PS i love arch too, it's my Fav distro.


----------



## enorbet2

Please look at www.slackware.com I promise you won't regret it. The only preparation you may need is to realize that by default (you can change that, but it is better not to) it boots to console. There just type "kdm" or "gdm" or even "xdm" to get to a gui login screen where you can select between several desktops. Gnome is no longer included in the default DVD release but is available as a specially made package just for Slackware called Dropline Gnome.

Even if you're used to Gnome you won't have trouble with KDE or Xfce4. I'd recommend you steer clear of Blackbox and Fluxbox until you get setup and more familiar as they are minimalist managers designed for sheer speed.


----------



## Deegan

im gonna give arch a go. i have a backup pc that i can view the install guide on. thx rep+


----------



## enorbet2

Linux already supports DirectX *IF* you pay for it by purchasing Cedega which was originally called WineX since it was wine with directx support. However it is DirectX9 IIRC. This is exactly why MS was willing to sell lease rights because they knew they were making the big push to force gamers into Vista so they could get DirectX 10.

They pull this kind of ****e regularly which is why I went to Linux in the 1st place. Back when Win98 came out which was only a minor upgrade, especially before version 2, the biggest of which was USB support which then was essentially one dll file, but was required even for AGP support. I called M$ to see if I could get that file and they said "Certainly - 50 bucks! But why not spend 80 bucks and get Win98?"

So it looks like every 3 years they hold a gun to your head to force you to spend ever increasing amounts of money to stay current with their proprietary bull****e.

I refuse to even pirate Vista. Screw 'em.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
Linux already supports DirectX *IF* you pay for it by purchasing Cedega which was originally called WineX since it was wine with directx support. However it is DirectX9 IIRC. This is exactly why MS was willing to sell lease rights because they knew they were making the big push to force gamers into Vista so they could get DirectX 10.

They pull this kind of ****e regularly which is why I went to Linux in the 1st place. Back when Win98 came out which was only a minor upgrade, especially before version 2, the biggest of which was USB support which then was essentially one dll file, but was required even for AGP support. I called M$ to see if I could get that file and they said "Certainly - 50 bucks! But why not spend 80 bucks and get Win98?"

So it looks like every 3 years they hold a gun to your head to force you to spend ever increasing amounts of money to stay current with their proprietary bull****e.

I refuse to even pirate Vista. Screw 'em.

Cedega is just Wine being worked on independantly. It's not had support from M$, paid for or otherwise, and it's not full support. It's just Wine with extra patches.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Cedega is just Wine being worked on independantly. It's not had support from M$, paid for or otherwise, and it's not full support. It's just Wine with extra patches.

Not to mention that much of what's in Cedega winds up open sourced back into Wine. Wine has DirectX support now, for instance. That TransGaming spends so much time and effort in making games work on Linux is probably worth subscribing, though.

So if you want to play Left 4 Dead today, Cedega probably will work better than Wine, at least for a couple of months.


----------



## enorbet2

Hello
We may be splitting hairs since I haven't purchased Cedega since v5 which I mistakenly wrote had DX 9 support. Sorry, from your post I checked and it was DX 8. However FWIW the very first page at transgaming states "improved DX 9 support. As of 2006 Ubuntu and Xandros forums have numerous posts comparing wine with cedega.

One industrious fellow installed side by side and compared. 
Results:
Wine loaded faster but DX 8 was not available
Cedega loaded way slower but had DX 8 graphics with some bugs.

This was with Cedega 5.2.6. Current is Cedega 7.0 again claiming DX 9 support.

That said, it is by no means perfect but people still buy and continue to upgrade cedega, so somebody thinks it's worth it. Frankly, I no longer do since I can't help but be cynical about M$ investing millions in OpenGL at the very same time they released DX 10, and I don't mind either rebooting or lack of DX10. Microsoft is finding themselves in the interesting condition of competing with themselves as XBox sales grow. It is also interesting how many hacks you can find to install Linux on gaming consoles.

Incidentally Xandros has a proprietary version of Cedega since they "got in bed" with Microsoft (isn't that "tiny" and "limp"?) and their forums discuss their relative successes and failures with DX 9 especially version b.

While I agree cedega relies on patches, they do indeed support some versions of DX. An important config issue is which version you select in cedega config menues. Since M$ apparently leased DX support but by no means released source code, it's arguable just how far that support goes.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Hello
We may be splitting hairs since I haven't purchased Cedega since v5 which I mistakenly wrote had DX 9 support. Sorry, from your post I checked and it was DX 8. However FWIW the very first page at transgaming states "improved DX 9 support. As of 2006 Ubuntu and Xandros forums have numerous posts comparing wine with cedega.

One industrious fellow installed side by side and compared. 
Results:
Wine loaded faster but DX 8 was not available
Cedega loaded way slower but had DX 8 graphics with some bugs.

This was with Cedega 5.2.6. Current is Cedega 7.0 again claiming DX 9 support.

That said, it is by no means perfect but people still buy and continue to upgrade cedega, so somebody thinks it's worth it. Frankly, I no longer do since I can't help but be cynical about M$ investing millions in OpenGL at the very same time they released DX 10, and I don't mind either rebooting or lack of DX10. Microsoft is finding themselves in the interesting condition of competing with themselves as XBox sales grow. It is also interesting how many hacks you can find to install Linux on gaming consoles.

Incidentally Xandros has a proprietary version of Cedega since they "got in bed" with Microsoft (isn't that "tiny" and "limp"?) and their forums discuss their relative successes and failures with DX 9 especially version b.

While I agree cedega relies on patches, they do indeed support some versions of DX. An important config issue is which version you select in cedega config menues. Since M$ apparently leased DX support but by no means released source code, it's arguable just how far that support goes.


It doesn't quite work like that. The developers of Cedega (and Wine, for that matter) reverse-engineer DirectX to allow it to work under Linux. They havn't been allowed to support it by M$. Cedega supports DirectX to an extent, some things work as it's been reverse-engineered, however, it's in no way perfect, and in no way official. Which I believe is pretty similar to what you are saying.


----------



## Melcar

I don't think there was any reverse engineering involved with WINE/Cedega. The program is simply a translation layer that uses opengl calls to "translate" DX functions. 
The main beef I have with Cedega is that they don't give back to WINE. All the patches that get developed by the Cedega folks are not sent upstream to the WINE project, that is why you sometimes get different functionality with the programs.


----------



## error10

Wine has had DX9 support for some time. They've just begun work on DX10.

As for Cedega, yes, I think they're jerks for not sending their patches upstream, but the LGPL doesn't require it; it only requires they make their changes available, which they do. Or did; the site seems to be down right now.


----------



## enorbet2

Well, friends, in a perfect world or even a Star Trek NG world money would have lost it's importance and maybe all games would be written by Data for all platforms, but down here in 21st Century Earthside the market is still a powerful force and if gaming is ever to come to any kind of real fruition it's gonna take bucks. It is still a great lament of mine that Loki couldn't make it work.

Routinely I promote OSS but just as routinely I rationalize the use of nVidia drivers that taint my kernel because the simple truth is like so many things anymore there is little centralization. nVidia owes debts vis a vis licensing agreements to so many subsidiaries and even competitors they simply can't make their drivers OSS. Would you rather not even have the option?

Similarly it is a shame that there isn't more room for transgaming to "give back" but I strongly suspect their profit margins from linux barely keep them afloat. If they too disappear others are less likely to follow and where does that leave us?

Also any commercial success instigates others and as one poster recently pointed out that despite considerable FUD and rumours about Maya and such Adobe is a big loss even considering that there is a GIMP called GimpShop or something that mimics Photoshop interface, there are still a few big tools that are as yet unavailable in Linux. The list is growing smaller, but there are some major holdouts and money is the cause. Presently enterprise Linux is the biggest hope since they have fewer eye-patches <grin>

So don't knock Transgaming too hard.


----------



## error10

They're Canadian, they don't HAVE profit margins.


----------



## Melcar

AMD is in the same boat as nvidia and yet they have been providing docs. for FOSS drivers. Same with Intel to a lesser extent. Nvidia doesn't want to provide resources for such drivers simply because they wish to remain in complete control of their hardware.
Transgaming doesn't give back to WINE, well, because they don't have to. They would still be viable if they did, however. There is no reason why they can't still have an edge because of the services they provide, and not because of the information they withhold.


----------



## Danylu

I'm going to try this challenge on a newly acquired secondary rig of mine. It isn't powerul enough to play games anyway








.

Thanks to error10 I might be able to start maybe tomorrow or day after. I'll need a lot of help though.


----------



## chailvr

Tried using Linux, but didn't work out. Not enough compatibility for me. For now it'll just be osx86 and vista ultimate


----------



## Mochyn

right well i installed Linux mint to try this a few weeks ago but haven't had much time till now. However the problem I'm having is my wireless keyboard a logitech diNovo Edge seems to lose sync, I can get it back working and when it does it works perfect even the mouse pad and volume control. However to get it working takes a lot of messing around every time. It works fine in Winows and when on the boot screens so i can see no reason why it has this problem. Anyone have any suggestions on how to resolve this?


----------



## enorbet2

From Googling around I get contradictory results where some say as long as you have a kernel newer than 2.6.20 it'll work fine and others that manually setup Xmodmap to get everything working. Another said that while installing some printer/scanner software the touchdisk started working. I'm thinking this may be very distro and kernel config oriented where some software may trigger a usable module that hotplug doesn't always pickup unless the config had it built in from "jump street".
It sounds like an awesome keyboard (though I couldn't do without the keypad) so I hope you find out what is causing your sync problem. All I can suggest aside from googling around and gleaning the best blend of ideas is to set it up working and check "dmesg |tail" and then run the command again to see what happened if dmesg changes after the keyboatd loses sync. It is possible you may require either the Xmodmap setup or a finer tuned xorg.conf file to lock it down. Good luck and post back with results. Interesting.
Jimmy


----------



## lenzo

So what recommendations would a Linux user give to a non-Linux user trying to jump into the new OS, and what pitfalls might be on the road to get there?


----------



## KloroFormd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lenzo* 
So what recommendations would a Linux user give to a non-Linux user trying to jump into the new OS, and what pitfalls might be on the road to get there?

Well, the user should know that it'd be wise to do a bit of research before buying new hardware.

I just bought a cheap Microsoft webcam from Newegg, and by doing research I found that the current kernel Ubuntu 8.10 is using (2.6.27) does not work with it out of the box despite previous kernels working (poorly). Didn't stop me from getting it though. I needed a challenge.









Now I have it working in Ubuntu. All it took was some kernel module compiling, blacklisting modules, headaches, anger, and waiting. And now I feel good that I accomplished such a thing.


----------



## Mochyn

thanks for the help enorbet2, sadly most of it didn't mean much to me.
Perhaps you could explain or point me in a direction to learn more about this "dmesg |tail"
I did run the command in terminal as i thought this is what you are saying but sadly even if it was i have no idea of where to go from here.
All the multimedia keys have worked fine when the keyboard is working I've had 0 issues with them
The keyboard only loses sync when it first boots in, once i have it connected it's fine until i reboot.
it is only when it logs in though, it is working fine before this, i know because i have to change HDD to boot into Linux.
However messing about i have found a solution although not a very good one. It seems to get it working all i have to do is unplug the USB bluetooth and plug it in again.


----------



## BigFan

I am interested in taking the challenge, but, I plan to do it on my laptop, not my desktop, since, the desktop is mostly for gaming. Anyways, I have a couple of problems that I want to sort out so I can have less trouble when I try Linux.
Laptop specs:
Dual core @ 1.83Ghz
2Gb DDR2-667 ram
Intel gma 950
Dual booting windows xp 32bit/vista 64bit
1) I want to remove the vista partition and put linux instead. I could format the partition from xp I presume, but, then the boot loader will mess up since it uses vista's bootloader. If I can remove vista, fix the bootloader, then I'll install linux instead of vista in that partition keeping my xp partition unharmed.
2) Drivers for my intel gma 950. I have no clue if intel even cares about linux. I am interested in running that beryl linux, the one that guy used for the matrix theme. I think its on page 10 or so of this thread, so, what options do I have for my gpu?
3) I have a wireless router, so, I heard those don't work well with linux. I also have an ethernet connection, so, I can connect my laptop to the line if the wireless is problematic. My question is, which linux works best or at least would allow me to install ethernet drivers, so, that within Linux, I can google any problems, etc.....? 
4) I want to be able to run something like JCreator or at least eclipse(I want to have some fun with my knowledge of java creating a small game







), so, I don't want to have to boot into windows to program then reboot back into linux








5) Which linux is the best one to use? I know there are many different options and different opinions about it. I want one that'll give me a challenge, but, not a crazy hard one where I'll get angry and have headache. I've tried Redhat before, but, the problem was that it was on an i486 cpu and it was sooooooooo slow to boot into Linux and such which made it hate it, althought, its not Linux's fault








So, basically if I can be assured that I can install linux over vista, but, not mess up my bootloader, that ethernet drivers are available, so, I have internet working for problem solving, drivers for my intel gma 950, good programming environment and finally a linux version that looks nice such as that Matrix one, I'll take the challenge


----------



## error10

Your post is too big to quote, so:

1. Linux can boot XP directly, so you can just blow away the Vista partition from Linux's installation.
2. Intel has absolutely the best Linux support of any hardware vendor I've ever seen. Their drivers work perfectly and your onboard graphics will work out of the box. You'll have no problem with desktop effects.
3. Your wireless router is irrelevant. It's the laptop's wireless card itself that may be relevant. What is it? If you don't know, you can always just hook up to the wired network and sort it out later.
4. Eclipse is available for Linux. If you use Fedora, then Eclipse is included on the DVD. (Hit Customize Now during the installation to select it.)
5. See above. You can probably use any distro but since you're going to be doing development, Fedora is probably your best bet.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BigFan* 
1) I want to remove the vista partition and put linux instead. I could format the partition from xp I presume, but, then the boot loader will mess up since it uses vista's bootloader. If I can remove vista, fix the bootloader, then I'll install linux instead of vista in that partition keeping my xp partition unharmed.

All you need to do is install a linux distro over Vista, It'll install GRUB (the most popular Linux bootloader) and you can use that to boot your Linux distro or XP.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BigFan* 
2) Drivers for my intel gma 950. I have no clue if intel even cares about linux. I am interested in running that beryl linux, the one that guy used for the matrix theme. I think its on page 10 or so of this thread, so, what options do I have for my gpu?

Intel actually are pretty good for it. You should be able to run Compiz Fuzion (Beryl and Compiz merged).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BigFan* 
3) I have a wireless router, so, I heard those don't work well with linux. I also have an ethernet connection, so, I can connect my laptop to the line if the wireless is problematic. My question is, which linux works best or at least would allow me to install ethernet drivers, so, that within Linux, I can google any problems, etc.....?

Frankly, a lot of wireless stuff works well these days. It depends on the specific card, but you'll probably find it just works with a distro like Ubuntu.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BigFan* 
4) I want to be able to run something like JCreator or at least eclipse(I want to have some fun with my knowledge of java creating a small game







), so, I don't want to have to boot into windows to program then reboot back into linux









Eclipse runs perfectly under Linux, it's an open source application, and is cross-platform.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BigFan* 
5) Which linux is the best one to use? I know there are many different options and different opinions about it. I want one that'll give me a challenge, but, not a crazy hard one where I'll get angry and have headache. I've tried Redhat before, but, the problem was that it was on an i486 cpu and it was sooooooooo slow to boot into Linux and such which made it hate it, althought, its not Linux's fault









The best distro for someone relatively new would be Ubuntu.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BigFan* 
So, basically if I can be assured that I can install linux over vista, but, not mess up my bootloader, that ethernet drivers are available, so, I have internet working for problem solving, drivers for my intel gma 950, good programming environment and finally a linux version that looks nice such as that Matrix one, I'll take the challenge









You should be perfectly fine. Wired connections work 99.999% of the time, and the rest should be fine. Programming is the one area where Linux really does excel, mainly because everyone who writes software for Linux is a programmer, so...


----------



## BigFan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Your post is too big to quote, so:
1. Linux can boot XP directly, so you can just blow away the Vista partition from Linux's installation.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
All you need to do is install a linux distro over Vista, It'll install GRUB (the most popular Linux bootloader) and you can use that to boot your Linux distro or XP.

Wouldn't that mess up the bootloader though or will it just override the vista one and everything will work dandy?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
2. Intel has absolutely the best Linux support of any hardware vendor I've ever seen. Their drivers work perfectly and your onboard graphics will work out of the box. You'll have no problem with desktop effects.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Intel actually are pretty good for it. You should be able to run Compiz Fuzion (Beryl and Compiz merged).

That sounds great, kinda noticed that when I decided to stop being lazy and actually google for linux drivers







What's the difference between beryl and ubuntu and which has the better effects? I remember seeing this one guy who flipped his laptop on its side and the screen flipped as well, he looked like he was using a version of linux, any clues what he might have been using?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
3. Your wireless router is irrelevant. It's the laptop's wireless card itself that may be relevant. What is it? If you don't know, you can always just hook up to the wired network and sort it out later.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Frankly, a lot of wireless stuff works well these days. It depends on the specific card, but you'll probably find it just works with a distro like Ubuntu.

The laptop's wireless card is an Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG. I can always directly connect to the router, so, I shouldn't have problems









Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
4. Eclipse is available for Linux. If you use Fedora, then Eclipse is included on the DVD. (Hit Customize Now during the installation to select it.)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Eclipse runs perfectly under Linux, it's an open source application, and is cross-platform.

That's true. Do you guys know if JCreator works? I'm more used to that than eclipse, but, was hoping that at least one of them works as to prevent me going back to windows









Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
5. See above. You can probably use any distro but since you're going to be doing development, Fedora is probably your best bet.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
The best distro for someone relatively new would be Ubuntu.

Well, I am not a programmer(not doing comp sci at uni), but, have taken some C, C++ and Java, so, thought I might as well strength my programming skills with my free time, so, more towards light development and fun







So, Fedora is the best one? Is it possible to use beryl or ubuntu(the one with all those flashy effects) and import over some of Fedora's packages or whatever they are called or am I just dreaming?


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *BigFan*


Wouldn't that mess up the bootloader though or will it just override the vista one and everything will work dandy?


No, Fedora will recognize the XP partition and set it up to dual boot automatically. Ubuntu is not quite as good at doing this and messes it up sometimes.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *BigFan*


That sounds great, kinda noticed that when I decided to stop being lazy and actually google for linux drivers







What's the difference between beryl and ubuntu and which has the better effects? I remember seeing this one guy who flipped his laptop on its side and the screen flipped as well, he looked like he was using a version of linux, any clues what he might have been using?


I think I'll let Latty answer this one.









Quote:



Originally Posted by *BigFan*


The laptop's wireless card is an Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG. I can always directly connect to the router, so, I shouldn't have problems










Remember I mentioned that Intel had some of the best available Linux support of any hardware vendor? That includes wireless. Your card will work out of the box.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *BigFan*


That's true. Do you guys know if JCreator works? I'm more used to that than eclipse, but, was hoping that at least one of them works as to prevent me going back to windows










Wikipedia says that JCreator works in Linux using Wine, so that shouldn't be much of an issue.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *BigFan*


Well, I am not a programmer(not doing comp sci at uni), but, have taken some C, C++ and Java, so, thought I might as well strength my programming skills with my free time, so, more towards light development and fun







So, Fedora is the best one? Is it possible to use beryl or ubuntu(the one with all those flashy effects) and import over some of Fedora's packages or whatever they are called or am I just dreaming?










A piece of Linux software is just a piece of software. It gets repackaged for each distribution. So Fedora will have a package for, say, Firefox, while Ubuntu will have a separate package for Firefox. Each distribution has a package manager where you can find tens of thousands of Linux programs.


----------



## enorbet2

This bodes well and I'm talking about the fact that unplugging and replugging sets your Logitech KB straight. Dmesg is the system logging utility that keeps track of all the kernel activity including module loading, network activation and other items in startup folders (usually found in /etc/rc folders). So running dmesg typrs out the entire log or more usefully one can add switches like "|more" which displays the log a page at a time and displays "more" prompting one to hit keys to advance either by line or by page, and the one I mentioned "dmesg |tail" which shows the last few entries of activity. Any new activity is appended on the tail end of the log so for example any activity caused by replugging will show up there and you can skip the voluminous beginning and go right to the tail.

Xmodmap is specific and xorg.conf is general catch all configuration files that setup hardware for Xwindows regardless of whether KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, Xfce, etc. For specifics both are way too big to explain here if you're completely new to what they are and how they work. They each would require some research and my only advice would be that Xmodmap is an older way to modify behaviour and xorg.conf is more up to date and also more friendly. You could google "logitech edge xorg.conf" and you will find some great posts on how to tweak your setup.
You're welcome keep at it
Jimmy


----------



## BigFan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
No, Fedora will recognize the XP partition and set it up to dual boot automatically. Ubuntu is not quite as good at doing this and messes it up sometimes.

What about beryl? Where can I get it or is it some kind of plugin? I just finished dl'd Ubuntu, but, I am a bit lost if beryl is a totally different linux distro(if that's what its called) or just some plugin. If I was able to get beryl, does it set up dual booting automatically or is it problematic like Ubuntu?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
I think I'll let Latty answer this one.









ok









Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Remember I mentioned that Intel had some of the best available Linux support of any hardware vendor? That includes wireless. Your card will work out of the box.

Thanks for the confidence









Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Wikipedia says that JCreator works in Linux using Wine, so that shouldn't be much of an issue.

That's really good news









Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
A piece of Linux software is just a piece of software. It gets repackaged for each distribution. So Fedora will have a package for, say, Firefox, while Ubuntu will have a separate package for Firefox. Each distribution has a package manager where you can find tens of thousands of Linux programs.

Interesting









Edit: I love these effects in Beryl: http://www.beryl-project.org/features.php


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
For people with existing OpSys that are either wiping out the old one or just resizing it to make room for Linux I would suggest googling for any Live CD GParted distros and burning one. There are several and they act much like Partition Magic except they boot to Linux instead of DOS but give you numerous tools, all Free! Like PQMagic GParted allows easy graphic resizing, deleting, and creating partitions and file systems. Because it boots to linux it becomes a great maintenance tool as well as a good introduction to what you can expect.

To the Intel Laptop Guy - IMHO There are more and better development tools with greater speed and stability with Slackware than any other distro including Fedora however it is a bit more of a challenge initially. It's worth a look though to see if you're up to that challenge. If you'd like to see extreme speed try the Puppy Linux LiveCD to determine if you get what else you'd want. The speed is insane!
Jimmy


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BigFan* 
What about beryl? Where can I get it or is it some kind of plugin? I just finished dl'd Ubuntu, but, I am a bit lost if beryl is a totally different linux distro(if that's what its called) or just some plugin. If I was able to get beryl, does it set up dual booting automatically or is it problematic like Ubuntu?

Uh, Beryl is not a Linux distribution. And that web site is out of date. Beryl was merged with Compiz and is now called Compiz Fusion. It's a nice little set of programs which manages a wide variety of desktop effects (fading windows, the infamous cube with the fish in it, etc). Most Linux distributions include Compiz Fusion.


----------



## BigFan

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Uh, Beryl is not a Linux distribution. And that web site is out of date. Beryl was merged with Compiz and is now called Compiz Fusion. It's a nice little set of programs which manages a wide variety of desktop effects (fading windows, the infamous cube with the fish in it, etc). Most Linux distributions include Compiz Fusion.


oh, ok, thanks. That's good news then. Final question, which linux would you recommend that won't mess up my partition, because, that's one of the only reasons holding me back? I know you mentioned Ubuntu might miss it up but Fedora gets it right. Are there any other linux distributions that won't mess it up and is there a distribution similar to Ubuntu which has the programming aspects of Fedora if you get what I mean? 
Thanks








@enorbet2 Well, I want a distro that I can learn Linux from and that supports my hardware. I don't mind having to do some research and if its a bit difficult. Also, if it has good tools for programming, that'll be a plus


----------



## error10

Um, Fedora.


----------



## BigFan

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Um, Fedora.


ok, thanks


----------



## lattyware

I really wouldn't reccomend Fedora to a newbie myself, RPM-based package management just isn't good enough yet, from what I have seen.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I really wouldn't reccomend Fedora to a newbie myself, RPM-based package management just isn't good enough yet, from what I have seen.

Take another look, then. I have absolutely no hesitation recommending Fedora, at least after the hardware is pre-qualified. Especially to someone who's doing enterprise software development (or has aspirations to do so) since they're going to run into Red Hat again anyway.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Take another look, then. I have absolutely no hesitation recommending Fedora, at least after the hardware is pre-qualified. Especially to someone who's doing enterprise software development (or has aspirations to do so) since they're going to run into Red Hat again anyway.

Hrm... Maybe, I havn't tried it in some time, I could be wrong. Just saying from what I have seen, Ubuntu tends to be the distro everyone uses, so if you are just beginning to use Linux, it's a good choice.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Hrm... Maybe, I havn't tried it in some time, I could be wrong. Just saying from what I have seen, Ubuntu tends to be the distro everyone uses, so if you are just beginning to use Linux, it's a good choice.

RPMs work fine now, the only area in which it may not be suitable for a linux novice would be that if you google a problem, 90% of the answers that come back in the form of FAQs and on Forums are based around ubuntu.

Still, "yum search *package*" seems to sort most things out for me


----------



## BigFan

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Hrm... Maybe, I havn't tried it in some time, I could be wrong. Just saying from what I have seen, Ubuntu tends to be the distro everyone uses, so if you are just beginning to use Linux, it's a good choice.


One of the reasons I decided to go with Fedora over Ubuntu despite the fact that I'm a Linux novice is because I don't wanna mess my partition that I currently have, rather just install over vista and have the partition working plus it seems like its a better environment for any fun programming projects that I am thinking about


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *BigFan*


One of the reasons I decided to go with Fedora over Ubuntu despite the fact that I'm a Linux novice is because I don't wanna mess my partition that I currently have, rather just install over vista and have the partition working plus it seems like its a better environment for any fun programming projects that I am thinking about










Before the install it asks you what you want to do with it:

Office and Producivity
Web Server
Program Development
I've never ticked the bottom 2 options before but i would say it's pretty good for them. Anaconda (the graphical boot) is beautiful too <3


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *BigFan*


One of the reasons I decided to go with Fedora over Ubuntu despite the fact that I'm a Linux novice is because I don't wanna mess my partition that I currently have, rather just install over vista and have the partition working plus it seems like its a better environment for any fun programming projects that I am thinking about










You could do that with any distro, I'd like to note.


----------



## BigFan

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


You could do that with any distro, I'd like to note.


It's more the partitioning part I'm worried about, since, I wouldn't know how to fix any problems that arise


----------



## BigFan

Update:
I booted into fedora and got it to install on the hd. I had to do a custom layout otherwise it kept giving me a / error, so, I reformated my vista partition to / for the root partition and then took a small chunk of my xp partition from the end(~10-15mb) and formatted that to be the swap partition, whatever that means. It went through the installation and everything seems to be working fine, however, something odd occurred when I restarted my comp. The screen says press any key to go into the bootloader, otherwise, goes into fedora in ~3seconds. When I press any key, I get two options: fedora and others. If I click others, it gives me the choice between xp and vista where xp works but the vista doesn't since I destroyed the partition. My question is, is it possible to remove that click any key or boot into fedora part and also is it possible to remove the others and just have xp instead so clicking on it will take me directly into xp instead of having to choose xp again from the list?








Thanks


----------



## error10

Um, that's a Windows question


----------



## BigFan

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Um, that's a Windows question










I see..... I am writing this with Fedora. I like some of the effects but the clicks don't feel as responsive as Windows and I tried to change acceleration and sensitivity of mouse, but, can't get the right combination so the mouse still feels a bit heavy. How do I do the cube effect? If I was to remove the bottom panel, is there anyway to get it back with the workspaces thing(the four small windows at the right bottom corner?
Thanks








Edit: How do I change the font in firefox? The boldness is killing my eyes







I just remembered that I find that the brightness in some cases diminishes down but then goes back up, anyway to stop this?
Edit2: Just found this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=473179 Definitely not a good thing, considering I am using intel gma 950 in my laptop. It doesn't seem like there is a workaround


----------



## lattyware

You can edit panels by right clicking, and then choosing 'add to panel' - you can then add whatever you want, and move it around as you please. Unlike windows, you can have what you want on your taskbars, and have them wherever you want.

Before, when I said you could do that in any distro, I was talking about the partitioning.

Also, swap space is the equivalent of the page file in windows, it's used when your memory runs out, and also for some caching. 10mb really isn't enough, you generally want 2-3GB if you have 2GB of RAM.

As to how you boot, you'll need to look at your grub config file (in /boot/grub/menu.lst). That should allow you to set it up as you want.


----------



## Quantum Reality

Quote:



4) Trying to get some linux software, and end up trying to compile something.
If you want to install software under linux, don't go to the site of the software you want to install and download it - what you'll get will be source code, and compiling is a pain for n00bs. Instead, use the package manager. Every distro will have one, and it'll take a few clicks to install software. Package Managers make it a breeze.


I'd bet anything without reading the rest of this thread that some purist has already come along hissing and spitting at the very notion that you should use a package instead of fproting the tarball and recompiling the kernel from scratch.

How do I know this?

Becuase over on the PC-BSD forum when I asked about using PBIs at least two people barely restrained their "Oh, ew" and insisted the only good way was to compile everything, never mind that PC-BSD's stated objective is to provide a user-friendly way to add things onto the OS.

I've given Ubuntu a shot, actually, and it's still got its rough edges, mainly in terms of a good clean UI for DVD playing. Say what you will about XP, Vista, etc, but you just need to download Media Player Classic and run it. No hassle, no fuss, no muss.

By contrast I found both of the DVD playing programs available for Ubuntu to be clunky and awkward, never mind the fact that certain things have to be manually compiled in just to get DVD playing to work.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Quantum Reality*


By contrast I found both of the DVD playing programs available for Ubuntu to be clunky and awkward, never mind the fact that certain things have to be manually compiled in just to get DVD playing to work.


sudo apt-get install libdvdread3
sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh *or*
sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
*if the 1st one returns an error*

Enables playback of encrypted DVDs

Personally i use VLC player, but it's a matter of personal preference.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quantum Reality* 
I'd bet anything without reading the rest of this thread that some purist has already come along hissing and spitting at the very notion that you should use a package instead of fproting the tarball and recompiling the kernel from scratch.

How do I know this?

Becuase over on the PC-BSD forum when I asked about using PBIs at least two people barely restrained their "Oh, ew" and insisted the only good way was to compile everything, never mind that PC-BSD's stated objective is to provide a user-friendly way to add things onto the OS.

I've given Ubuntu a shot, actually, and it's still got its rough edges, mainly in terms of a good clean UI for DVD playing. Say what you will about XP, Vista, etc, but you just need to download Media Player Classic and run it. No hassle, no fuss, no muss.

By contrast I found both of the DVD playing programs available for Ubuntu to be clunky and awkward, never mind the fact that certain things have to be manually compiled in just to get DVD playing to work.

Not true these days, most people love package managers, even those that like compiling from source use Gentoo, which uses Portage.

Frankly, for DVDs, along with all my other video needs, SMPlayer (a front end for the wonderful mplayer) does it perfectly for me. And that's not true at all about having to compile things.


----------



## Quantum Reality

Playing commercial DVDs didn't work under 8.04 until I did what boydyboyd said to do. In Ubuntu's defence, almost any manual compilation can be done just by referring to the wiki and cut and pasting from it.


----------



## enorbet2

Lattyware
Please tell me you are not one of those that chooses swap space by multiplying some arbitrary number times your ram. Also please tell me what it is you do that requires 4-5 Gigs of temporary memory.

Swapspace, paging files, etc is the utility that prevents crashing when one has insufficient ram by employing hard drive space as if it were ram. If you have enough ram you don't need swapspace at all. It just kills me that so many get it backwards. Swapspace should be in INVERSE proportion to the amount of ram. Maybe I don't run enough high resource count programs simultaneously but I'd be shocked if a modern PC ever needed more than 1 Gig swap with Linux.

Even Windows with it's vastly poorer memory management is highly unlikely to ever need more than 3 Gigs total temp memory. 32 bit operating systems can't even address 4 Gigs of ram.

OTOH lately hard drive space is cheap so do what you will, cover your butt, but there are many programs and applets to monitor swap space usage and it is highly enlightening to find out just how little Linux requires the vastly slower hard drive temp memory in swap. It would be interesting to poll what sizes people have and if anybody has ever run out, especially in Linux.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Lattyware
Please tell me you are not one of those that chooses swap space by multiplying some arbitrary number times your ram. Also please tell me what it is you do that requires 4-5 Gigs of temporary memory.

Swapspace, paging files, etc is the utility that prevents crashing when one has insufficient ram by employing hard drive space as if it were ram. If you have enough ram you don't need swapspace at all. It just kills me that so many get it backwards. Swapspace should be in INVERSE proportion to the amount of ram. Maybe I don't run enough high resource count programs simultaneously but I'd be shocked if a modern PC ever needed more than 1 Gig swap with Linux.

Even Windows with it's vastly poorer memory management is highly unlikely to ever need more than 3 Gigs total temp memory. 32 bit operating systems can't even address 4 Gigs of ram.

OTOH lately hard drive space is cheap so do what you will, cover your butt, but there are many programs and applets to monitor swap space usage and it is highly enlightening to find out just how little Linux requires the vastly slower hard drive temp memory in swap. It would be interesting to poll what sizes people have and if anybody has ever run out, especially in Linux.


No, I'm not one of those people. In fact, you seem to be ranting over nothing, I said 2-3GB, not 4-5. That's reasonable. It's a good idea to have more than 15mb of swap. There are cases where it is used.


----------



## enorbet2

Partitioning is considerably easier if one does it before installation. Different distros have different tools to accomplish partitioning and it is so important and so scary to newbs that I contend it is nest to do it first.

Norton's PQMagic, if you have it is still excellent and absolutely intuitive and also handles ext2 and even the journaling ext3 partitions as well as linux swapspace. It can even check for errors when one boots from either the CD or floppies where all partitions are in an unmounted state.

If you don't have PQMagic there are free LiveCD Distros especially made for GParted which is nearly as intuitive as PQMagic and easily as powerful. In both cases having a graphic display of what partitions are on your hard drive(s) goes a long way toward relieving any fear that you will ruin an existing install especially if you label your partitions.

In most cases distros installation process will recognize and default to or at least suggest pre-prepared linux partitions. Very comfortable.

Packages - I agree with Lattyware that rpm package management is still behind debs in handling dependencies. Also there is little question that the unprecedented popularity of Ubuntu, a debian based distro, has even widened the gap between debs and rpms. IMHO if a newbie has no interest in ever compiling from source, he is probably best served by deb packaging tools. They are easy to use and even often feel fun when one realizes just how large the vast repositories of packaged programs is just waiting to be installed at a click or two.

OTOH after one has gotten a grip on how Linux works and possibly developed the desire for more control over the system it can be desirable to make one's own packages via compiling with "checkinstall".

During "./config" and sometimes even during "make" there are choices available either to more closely fit given hardware or other software or simply for optional functionality. When you use a package that choice has been made by the package builder according to his or generic needs. Obviously choosing for oneself is better.

Also there are still some pitfalls in the whole dependency issue because when a new program requires supporting software to be updated it is still possible that a previously installed package won't like the updated support software. For me I prefer my new program not work than one or ones I've already chosen to install. I can always recompile the new one and never have to backtrack. It is even possible by specifying the location of libraries to make the new one work without breaking the old one(s).

So as in everything there is no one best way, just options for you to choose what fits your needs and desires best. Despite the fact that the word "Linux" is a hack in that it is a circular repeating acronym for "Linux is not Unix" it essentially *is* which is why Sun and others tried to bring various lawsuits to bear against it, thankfully so far unsuccessfully. Variations of BSD are still only slightly different from some variations of Unix. Slackware is the only Linux that stays nearly identical to BSD and Unix, the advantage being a total lack of concern for dependencies through ultra simple packaging and ultra compatibility because of the premium placed on development tools without trying to appear "new and improved". It's not that they don't stay current or completely eschew glitz and pretties, it's just that severe testing must be passed in functionality first.

So the best part of Latty's challenge is that he tries to sidestep all the arguing and Chevy vs/ Ford "my Dad can whip your Dad" nonsense and encourage peeps to just look at the options and try it themselves. All the rest is just BS.


----------



## error10

A lot of the BSD people insist on compiling everything themselves and have an aversion to packaging binary software for distribution. I won't get into why that is, but that's what goes on there. This is one reason why I don't send any noobs to any BSD.

For DVDs on Ubuntu, it's sufficient to install ubuntu-restricted-extras. It'll grab all the codecs and other software you need, and run that script for you. Though I agree that all the various programs need a better user interface, at least for playing DVDs.

As for swap space, even with 6GB I've managed to go 1.5GB into my 2GB swap. (Another 6GB will be coming next month; my budget for this month is entirely dry.) That was a real pain since the hard drive is easily the slowest component in a computer.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
A lot of the BSD people insist on compiling everything themselves and have an aversion to packaging binary software for distribution. I won't get into why that is, but that's what goes on there. This is one reason why I don't send any noobs to any BSD.

For DVDs on Ubuntu, it's sufficient to install ubuntu-restricted-extras. It'll grab all the codecs and other software you need, and run that script for you. Though I agree that all the various programs need a better user interface, at least for playing DVDs.

As for swap space, even with 6GB I've managed to go 1.5GB into my 2GB swap. (Another 6GB will be coming next month; my budget for this month is entirely dry.) That was a real pain since the hard drive is easily the slowest component in a computer.

Mainly because BSD guys are tin-foil-hat wearers, and don't trust package maintainers.


----------



## error10

I really didn't want to go there.


----------



## Melcar

Installing with a package manager is like tossing a tomato at a spinning high speed fan. It's just more elegant and cleaner to build stuff on your own. Of course, it doesn't matter for the end user, but for neat freaks and old Linux geezers it's night and day. Anyway, the most practical reason not to use a package manager is if you want to use a program version that is not available in your distribution repositories and/or only available as source files. For everyday Linux use package managers are the best thing since sliced bread.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Melcar* 
Installing with a package manager is like tossing a tomato at a spinning high speed fan. It's just more elegant and cleaner to build stuff on your own. Of course, it doesn't matter for the end user, but for neat freaks and old Linux geezers it's night and day. Anyway, the most practical reason not to use a package manager is if you want to use a program version that is not available in your distribution repositories and/or only available as source files. For everyday Linux use package managers are the best thing since sliced bread.

You went there.

I think you've got it entirely backwards: Building it on your own is tossing a tomato at a high speed fan. It hardly can be said to be cleaner, and I can't imagine why a neat freak would like it.


----------



## Melcar

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
You went there.

I think you've got it entirely backwards: Building it on your own is tossing a tomato at a high speed fan. It hardly can be said to be cleaner, and I can't imagine why a neat freak would like it.


No. Building it yourself (provided you know what you're doing) allows full control over the process of installation/uninstallation. Building it yourself also lets you use various hardware/software optimization options that are usually not available with package managers.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Melcar*


No. Building it yourself (provided you know what you're doing) allows full control over the process of installation/uninstallation. Building it yourself also lets you use various hardware/software optimization options that are usually not available with package managers.


That much is true, assuming you know where all the files got installed in the first place, or the package developer was kind enough to include a "make uninstall" that actually works. (Don't count on it.)

Now if you're using a managed build system like Gentoo portage or BSD ports then all of these problems are pretty much taken care of for you, and my criticisms do not apply. But totally compiling it yourself will quickly become a nightmare.


----------



## Melcar

You don't just "make" at random. If you're compiling from source then you know how to mess around with configuration files. You specify what you want built and where you wanted built. Package managers usually do system wide installs, but by doing it yourself you can opt for a localized install so when you remove the program you can better control it.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Melcar*


You don't just "make" at random. If you're compiling from source then you know how to mess around with configuration files. You specify what you want built and where you wanted built. Package managers usually do system wide installs, but by doing it yourself you can opt for a localized install so when you remove the program you can better control it.


I know this too. It's still a royal pain compared to, say, having ports do the heavy lifting.


----------



## enorbet2

Hey!
After I give you mad props you call me a "tin foil hat wearer"? That is especially egregious when everyone knows you have to use Mu Metal for optimum results. That and a whole house Faraday Cage and you're at least safe from the majority of aliens and MIBs. Flame me again and If I ever get these voices out of my head I may just have to find pictures of yer sister I can spread all over 0day BBS's. Heheh!

Seriously though you guys worrying about uninstall need to check out "Checkinstall" as it creates either an rpm, a deb or a slackpack before it installs and thus uses the systems own package manager to handle both install and uninstall. My system has at least 80% of newly installed programs done from source (and btw to the Quantum flamer I've never yet used fprot since Sourceforge, Freshmeat, and even Download.com and Softpedia are reliable especially with Linux tarballs) and not only is it not a nightmare, it's nearly a wet dream. I LOVE my Slackware system. All it takes is a couple of custom installs viewing the config options you miss in packages somebody else built and you'd be sold too. It's just worth it.

Jimmy


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
Hey!
After I give you mad props you call me a "tin foil hat wearer"? That is especially egregious when everyone knows you have to use Mu Metal for optimum results. That and a whole house Faraday Cage and you're at least safe from the majority of aliens and MIBs. Flame me again and If I ever get these voices out of my head I may just have to find pictures of yer sister I can spread all over 0day BBS's. Heheh!

Seriously though you guys worrying about uninstall need to check out "Checkinstall" as it creates either an rpm, a deb or a slackpack before it installs and thus uses the systems own package manager to handle both install and uninstall. My system has at least 80% of newly installed programs done from source (and btw to the Quantum flamer I've never yet used fprot since Sourceforge, Freshmeat, and even Download.com and Softpedia are reliable especially with Linux tarballs) and not only is it not a nightmare, it's nearly a wet dream. I LOVE my Slackware system. All it takes is a couple of custom installs viewing the config options you miss in packages somebody else built and you'd be sold too. It's just worth it.

Jimmy

Or just run Arch and use the ABS/AUR.

/me <3 Arch.


----------



## john55576

I did Latty's Linux Challenge and I now *run Linux*!









I'm only on my first day, but everything I saw and did were things related to the issues I had with vista and XP. If a version of Linux could come out that would play games... Maybe if I win the power ball, I'll start development for Games for Linux.


----------



## enorbet2

The last I read, back in summer 2008, UT3 native linux client was still in the works. It has been delayed forever but as I said last I heard they were still committed. Anybody got news more recent than august 2008?
Jimmy


----------



## Tainok

Not because of this thread, but I setup an Ubuntu server box with ksh/bash to get more hands on experience besides what we do at work. (HP-UX, AIX, and some Linux, on top of the Windows server)

Very similar to our ksh shell on HP-UX. (Closest I could find anyway, and I'm not shelling out 3 grand for an outdated HP-UX terminal)


----------



## Alwinp

I'm curious if we can ever expect a linux that has game support.
I did try linux, but it simply left me dissapointed for the fact i couldn't play every game i wanted.

Ok there is dual boot, but that just makes it the same as running vista only.

i'm sure alot of people would move to linux, or at least try linux, if it had game support.
Hell, it something that should have happend a long time ago. It would end the M$'s monopoly on OS prices.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alwinp* 
I'm curious if we can ever expect a linux that has game support.
I did try linux, but it simply left me dissapointed for the fact i couldn't play every game i wanted.

Ok there is dual boot, but that just makes it the same as running vista only.

i'm sure alot of people would move to linux, or at least try linux, if it had game support.
Hell, it something that should have happend a long time ago. It would end the M$'s monopoly on OS prices.

It has game support. A good number of free games.

But very few native games that are big titles. UT2k4 is one though. UT3 is supposed to get native linux support. Along with Valve games and Steam.


----------



## lattyware

Gaming under Linux would be a great thing, but it's the chicken and the egg paradox.

For developers to develop games for Linux, they want more users.
For users to run Linux, they want games.

Someone has to go first.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Gaming under Linux would be a great thing, but it's the chicken and the egg paradox.

For developers to develop games for Linux, they want more users.
For users to run Linux, they want games.

Someone has to go first.


I'd love to see indie game devs go into it and actually do well and make money from it.

Their is an un-tapped market in the Linux/Gamer side of things. But thats cause quality games would most likely be enjoyed. Because of the smarter and more mature community.


----------



## Modulus

I use Debian for all my servers. I LOVE Debian's ease of installation and package consistency. Also, I often install Ubuntu/Xubuntu on older laptops to bring back thier usefullness. I find Linux however heavely lacking in the standard department. This is why games are not made for Linux like they are for Windows (not that it matters to me). Also, hardware manufactures have to start waking up. I have had nothing but truble installing Nvidia video drivers and getting various network adapters working. Half of the problems I have with proprietary drivers is the lack of effort put into them.

Anyway, thanks to the Ubuntu project, maybe an a few years will have most of those problems fixed up.

Oh, the main reason I use Linux and the same reason I think everybody shoud give it a try is, to experiance freedom to do whatever you what without fees and licenses that hang over everybodies heads.

That's my 2 cents.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Gaming under Linux would be a great thing, but it's the chicken and the egg paradox.

For developers to develop games for Linux, they want more users.
For users to run Linux, they want games.

Someone has to go first.

Yep, I've called that the ultimate catch-22 that keeps most of the world in the "windows cycle."


----------



## enorbet2

What do you mean by "standard problem" and what sort of problems do tou gave with nVidia drivers. I've installed nVidia drivers in Linux at least 50 times on several systems. I'm pretty confident I or someone else can help you here.


----------



## error10

The problem with standards is that there are so many to choose from.


----------



## MaXiMiUS

I can't honestly say I like Linux more than Windows (or vice versa).

I have a dream of the perfect DirectX environment on Linux. Thus far.. it remains a dream. So, I remain with Windows.

Notes: I've used CentOS, Fedora, Ubuntu, and Debian in the past.


----------



## Cyth'Rawl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Gaming under Linux would be a great thing, but it's the chicken and the egg paradox.

For developers to develop games for Linux, they want more users.
For users to run Linux, they want games.

Someone has to go first.

Someone did... Years ago... Big name people too...iD Software and Epic Mega games.

Quake III.

Unreal Tournament / UT2003 and so forth..

to name but a few. They had native Linux clients. Both were released at the height of popularity for those types of games, and even with a vast amount of people saying the same things now about Linux and games... it never caught on..

Really what else has to happen???

I don't think that after some huge AAA titles were put on the table with native Linux that there was enough nibbles at the proverbial cake..

And to sum it up:

Quote:

Todd Hollenshead, id Software's CEO, that reveals id Software and John Carmack are no longer as committed to Linux as they have been. Todd's words also imply that the Windows version of id Software's next game, Rage, will use Direct3D rather than OpenGL.

Id Tech 5, id Software's new engine, was first publicly shown at this year's Apple WWDC event running on a Mac. Their previous engine, DOOM 3, was also first shown on Mac hardware. At E3 id Software announced their next game, Rage, would have a simultaneous PC/Mac/XBOX 360/PS3 release and that it would run at 60 fps.

In this interview Todd mentions that a Linux version of id Tech 5 is not planned; he also goes on to mention that John Carmack is no longer as interested in Linux and that Rage will be a DX9 game, not DX10, and will run on Windows XP. Despite this, the game will ship for the Mac using OpenGL.
If Carmack has given up then its hard to press anyone else.. Esp if they are purchasing the next ID tech engine for their games.. :-/

Sad but true....


----------



## error10

It didn't make economic sense 10 years ago to release Linux native games. Today, it's making a lot more sense, what with Linux desktop adoption going through the roof.

id Software are clearly smoking some crack there. An OpenGL release for Mac but not Linux? That's a great way to lose potential sales. Who games on OS X? Who even owns a Mac, for that matter?

What would REALLY help is if a current big name got behind Linux, such as, oh, maybe Valve. A native Steam client for Linux, with even 5% of the current crop of games, running natively or through Wine, would really jumpstart the thing.


----------



## BiG O

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


It didn't make economic sense 10 years ago to release Linux native games. Today, it's making a lot more sense, what with Linux desktop adoption going through the roof.

id Software are clearly smoking some crack there. An OpenGL release for Mac but not Linux? That's a great way to lose potential sales. Who games on OS X? Who even owns a Mac, for that matter?

What would REALLY help is if a current big name got behind Linux, such as, oh, maybe Valve. A native Steam client for Linux, with even 5% of the current crop of games, running natively or through Wine, would really jumpstart the thing.


I agree. Valve would be a great candidate. A lot of source engine games already run really well on wine, and have a lot of linux fan base. I think if there was a native version, their sales would rise. Whether it would be enough to offset the cost of production, who knows.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *BiG O*


I agree. Valve would be a great candidate. A lot of source engine games already run really well on wine, and have a lot of linux fan base. I think if there was a native version, their sales would rise. Whether it would be enough to offset the cost of production, who knows.


How about people stop coding games in crappy DX and start using OpenGL which is simply a better code to use.


----------



## Melcar

Check out this old interview:
http://www.southwest.lug.org.uk/modules597a.html

What we need are Linux original games. Not clients of previously released Windows games, not Windows games working with Wine. Games developed for Linux and marketed towards the Linux desktop user.


----------



## -iceblade^

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
It didn't make economic sense 10 years ago to release Linux native games. Today, it's making a lot more sense, what with Linux desktop adoption going through the roof.

id Software are clearly smoking some crack there. An OpenGL release for Mac but not Linux? That's a great way to lose potential sales. Who games on OS X? Who even owns a Mac, for that matter?

What would REALLY help is if a current big name got behind Linux, such as, oh, maybe Valve. A native Steam client for Linux, with even 5% of the current crop of games, running natively or through Wine, would really jumpstart the thing.

apparently Valve are working on a Linux client.

that would be awesome...


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *-iceblade^* 
apparently Valve are working on a Linux client.

that would be awesome...

I think Sony should support Linux with its games.

Make it so games PlayStation exclusive games actually have Linux releases.

Its feasible since both are OpenGL coded.

It'd shove one right up the tail pipe of Microsoft and their DirectX/3D crap.


----------



## Cyth'Rawl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tator Tot* 
I think Sony should support Linux with its games.

Make it so games PlayStation exclusive games actually have Linux releases.

Its feasible since both are OpenGL coded.

It'd shove one right up the tail pipe of Microsoft and their DirectX/3D crap.

I'd like to see you convince Sony that it would make _economical_ sense to release exclusive games for an OS that is free and that its entire user base is all about open source and being free.

To get Linux games to be awesome would need some kind of propriety game code base that would not be open source. Something similar to Direct X (dont say ooh Open GL, Direct X does MORE than just the 3D you know). That would be opposed from the get go. And there lies the problem.

If not then you again get a mass amounts of supposed Linux Game base code that would not work on certain distros etc etc etc, and it would become just as bad as the distros. IE more than your average user can get to grips with and really which one _IS_ best. SOme would run one set of games one another.. it would be a mess..

Maybe what needs to happen is that a game based OS needs to come out.. be it Linux or otherwise.. Just optimized to run games, a game mode for your PC. Hell if WIndows had a Game Mode boot then I would use it.

DirectX/3D is far from crap, in fact if you look at it, its a very good code base. Its just that its property of windows and only runs under it is the reason why people are calling it crap. If you know any game programmers, etc etc, they will tell you that it is FAR FROM CRAP. Before Direct X everyone was running their games from DOS with Real mode. If you don't remember that, then you just weren't around at that time. Direct X changed the face of gaming on the PC, so please dont call it crap just because Microsoft made it. Microsoft made my keyboard, its an awesome keyboard.. its not crap.. Microsoft dont make every product crap, just some. I wish people would see that before saying stuff like that.

If you could get a unified replacement for DirectX that works on ANY system and ANY OS (kinda like Java does) then I think that would be the way to go... but really who is going to pump their money, time and resources into something that might not even take off?.. Who here would foot the bill, and get the backing of all the major game houses? Really?

Its a shame because I wish it would happen, but it wont for many reasons.... Money being one of them.


----------



## Tator Tot

Windows does have a game mode if you have an AMD 7 series chipset.

Its called Fusion, it basically just turns off unnecessary items running in the background.

So all that is running is what you need to game.

Its hawt and I love it.

But thats cause its good for lower end systems like my own. But thats just cause I am waiting to upgrade to AM3. And some price drops on the XFX HD4000 cards.

Besides, its not that hard to make games for linux. OpenGL is very simple to work with. As far as cross-distro performance. As long as you are not running some of the more experimental distro's like SuSe, (uses experimental tech and that is why its so buggy, but it is cutting edge) and just stuck with distro's like Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Kubuntu. You wouldn't have issues.

Most distro's work the same across the board.


----------



## Melcar

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Cyth'Rawl*


...
To get Linux games to be awesome would need some kind of propriety game code base that would not be open source. Something similar to Direct X (dont say ooh Open GL, Direct X does MORE than just the 3D you know). That would be opposed from the get go. And there lies the problem...



SDL; free, open, and cross platform... you can't get better than that. The tools are there, it's just that no one bothers to use them. On top of that, things like Wine do more harm than good. Right now, Gallium3D seems to have the capabilities of offering a viable cross platform API. We just have to wait and see how it unfolds.


----------



## newt111

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Windows does have a game mode if you have an AMD 7 series chipset.

Its called Fusion, it basically just turns off unnecessary items running in the background.

So all that is running is what you need to game.

Its hawt and I love it.


where can I find info on this?

a google search gives me a bunch of Mac stuff


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *newt111*


where can I find info on this?

a google search gives me a bunch of Mac stuff


http://game.amd.com/us-en/drivers_fusion.aspx?p=1

Right here bro.


----------



## MetalheadGautham

I personally feel that the TRUE power of linux is realised only if you start turning a geek.

In the begening, linux appears just as "yet another OS" but looks terribly easy to use.

It suddenly grows hard when you have to do unfamiliar tasks.

But once you learn it inside out, it becomes smooth. Almost too simple and elegent.

This is my experience after my chain of distros - Ubuntu 7.04, Ubuntu 8.04, Debian Lenny, Sidux and finally, my current distro, ArchLinux.


----------



## Danylu

Oh yeah btw if anyone cared about my attempt at the challenge... FAIL!

Too much stuff I need is Windows only but it was all good. I got some good out of it









The ultimate challenge for me is to try Macs without rage quitting.


----------



## Cyth'Rawl

Quote:



Originally Posted by *newt111*


where can I find info on this?

a google search gives me a bunch of Mac stuff


Here is a review, and not some AMD marketing blurb so you can make up your own mind:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=3412


----------



## newt111

Quote:



One of the major features of this software is that it automatically overclocks both the CPU and the GPU. Because of this, AMD will only allow the tool to run on all-AMD platforms, meaning that people who run AMD GPUs on Intel CPUs and *AMD CPUs with NVIDIA GPUs* will not be able to benefit from this applications.


looks like I'm out


----------



## enorbet2

In order to understand the future of DirectX it may not be essential to understand it's history but it really helps. There is no better place to learn that than from the horse's mouth namely from Alex St John the father of DirectX. He's quite the renegade and free thinker ad a interesting interview can be found here:

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=283

It is worthy of note that Alex has been spot on with a number of predictions one being the noting that DirectX was being damaged by the in-fighting politics at Microsoft and that DirectX 10 and Vista would be dismal failures. He said this fully a year prior to it's release. Numerous gaming companies, virtually every one in fact, have learned how to do more with DirectX 9 than was ever dreamed possible and most have no active designs relying on DirectX 10. While for a little while this would seem to cause praise for Direct X as a whole, the fact is that despite Carmack's statements to the contrary OpenGL is quietly moving ahead while DirectX is likely to stall for awhile. The fate of Direct X will fall very heavily bound to the fate of Windows 7.

I read ComputerPowerUser magazine to which Alex is a staff writer with a column every month, which just in the last year and a half has developed two monthly recurring columns specific to Linux. I also subscribe to email forums from CNet, ZDNet (once M$ lapdogs), and three different Linux forums. All of them agree, and even more so now that IBM has devoted themselves to a windows-free environment that they expect to save companies $800 yearly per workstation, that this major recession bodes ill for Microsoft and bodes well for Linux. The trend toward Linux will not only continue but will accelerate. Don't forget that Mac OSX is based on BSD, and it is easier to write for BSD than it is for Mac since they are at heart the same and only the UI that Mac users are used to is different and that is primarily not a fundamental difference from KDE, which has a Mac UI emulator. Whether or not games go big on Linux, though it is very easy to tweak a Max OSX game to run on Linux, Linux is going big. In addition to IBM's commitment to Linux, the Federal Government, especially under Obama but not at all limited to Democrats, are pushing Open Source to free themselves from Microsoft and proprietary enslavement. How fuxored would the bailout get if MS demanded billions with it's present monopoly on government workstations? However it is much deeper than that since just basic document formats are a problem since some newly made readers won't read older documents. This is a huge no-no in Govt. With the push for universal health care in general and the immediate and specific push to digitize medical records you can begin to see just how many areas lend themselves to Open Source considering the ability of the user to edit the source to suit the departmental needs and maintain compatibility for archival purposes. Linux is going big and not just embedded in cell phones and ATMs.

It should be obvious that unless consoles take over, if PCs have a place in gaming at all, as the user base grows, all the benefits that windows enjoys as well as new ones due to the rapid upgrade model that Open Source has already demonstrated, the migration will continue to accelerate and a tipping point will be soon reached where game developers will have little choice but to climb onboard. Since many game coders already work or have worked in Linux, there ois realy no major obstacle. It is a pretty safe bet. It is just a matter of economics and time and both are ripe..


----------



## newt111

Alex rocks, I read CPU as well and his articles are my favorites


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Danylu*


Oh yeah btw if anyone cared about my attempt at the challenge... FAIL!

Too much stuff I need is Windows only but it was all good. I got some good out of it










Come back in a year. Linux moves FAST.


----------



## Danylu

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Come back in a year. Linux moves FAST.










I had a feeling someone would say that...

I won't be deleting Ubuntu... I'll keep it on the laptop and I'll install W7 next to it for fun









But I need Windows to live


----------



## enorbet2

<But I need Windows to live
>

Oh Man! Don't say that out loud! You only encourage the power freaks like Ballmer. One has only to read a little about how M$ execs see themselves and how they conduct business (such as Alex pointed out that to be an M$ employee you have to think in terms of "force to use" as opposed to "offer incentive") to realize they want nothing less than domination. I'm not exaggerating or being paranoid. I'm quoting. These people believe that in a foot race it is perfectly OK, nay!, *better* to trip or shoot in the back better competitors as opposed to steroids, let alone honest self-improvement.

One only has to look at the history of Internet Explorer to see what will happen when and if they actually succeed at domination. IE had completely stalled with no development for almost two years despite the fact that it was affectionately known by hackers as their best friend since it's security was so lame and lacked any sort of improvements such as tabbed browsing until well after Firefox forced their hand by gaining market share. It even displays their arrogance and complacency that it took so long to see Firefox for the threat that it even still is.

Windows fanboys should continue to razz Linux publicly while secretly celebrating that it exists to keep M$ from becoming total slave masters. Linux, and Open Source, is in fact the M$ fanboys best friend.

Incidentally the very latest CPU magazine's lead article and theme is all about Open Source and lists the "must have" proggys including those for the "doze" platform.


----------



## mllrkllr88

To Microsoft it may be about domination... But to the average user, its about what operating system facilitates daily life better. It is painfully obvious that Microsoft will dominate for a while. But their hay day goes only as far as their the next operating system. (imo)

I currently run Ubuntu and of course I run XP for games. I make an attempt to use Ubuntu for everything except games. But as mentioned before, I am in XP most often.

Linux is moving alarmingly fast and will eventually BEAT Microsoft. That much is clear!


----------



## error10

This thread desperately needs a bump.


----------



## enorbet2

OK Here's a lil bump cuz I seem to be considerably outnumbered here by folks who prefer more automatic distros like Ubuntu and even more outnumbered bu those who boot directly to XWindows. So I'm fairly sure a bunch of you guys can explain how I can overcome a little problem I'm having with my Kubuntu thumbdrive.

This thing works amazingly well and is super fast once it gets loaded into ram. However recently my DLP fried and until I get up the nerve to break it down I've substituted my 30 inch flat screem HDTV, XP booted to a distorted desktop but soon with an appropriate resolution selected looked fine. Slackware booted to console as it is supposed to and I simply added "[email protected]" to xorg.conf, stroked KDM, got login and I was in KDE where I tweaked it w/ "nvidia-settings" and all was cool. Xandros on this box I hadn't edited to boot to console since it has a boot menu that allows selection of "expert mode" which takes on to single-user console and that is passable. To see if it would auto generate a proper xorg.conf I deleted the old one and started X. It failed, but did take me back to console where I could and did copy the old xorg.conf backup back into play and it gave me a distorted desktop. "nvidia-settings" fixed that and it was all good.

However my thumbdrive Kubuntu booted into X and all I got was blue screen "out of range" message. I heard the login wav so I know it was at the desktop but I could do nothing. Ctrl-Alt-+ didn't help and though I could hear that Ctrl-Alt-Backspace restarted X it would not take me to console. Whay's the dealio? How do you guys live with this? At least the Slax LiveCD allows you to edit the configs so you can get to console and load a selection of xorg,conf files. Help a cli brother out?

Jimmy


----------



## newt111

I'm downloading mint 64 and found this http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=22069

Any one else having issues?

and how does finding drivers for my rig work? do I do it through the OS, or find them online?

edit: I'm gonna dual boot with vista 64--which should I install 1st?

I can't register on the Mint forums because the confirmation image doesn't show up







I tried 2 computers and both Firefox and IE..nothing


----------



## enorbet2

How you orgainize your installs depends a bit on what tools you intend to use such as bootloader and partitioning tools. I recommend partitioning first with the application with which you're most familiar. If you've never done partitioning before I'd tend to recommend dowloading one of the GParted Live CD distros that essentially duplicate the bootable PQMagic awesome and friendly tool. It is so graphic and easy to understand I'm sure you'll have no trouble with it even if you were a raw newb. Just plan out how much space you're going to need for at least 3 partitions - one for Vista (prolly 30 Gigs minimum), one for Linux Sawp (maybe 2 Gigs) and another for Mint (also likely 30-40 Gigs). Ideally swap should come first as that is the fasted part of the hdd, then Vista(it needs all the help it can get speedwise), then Mint (less desirable but Mint/Linux is fast enough to take the hit).

Install Vista first because if you do it last it will want to destroy Linux, literally. The only reason to install Vista last is if you plan to use a windows based bootloader like BootMagic. It's rather complicated trying to get Vista's bootloader to boot linux but it's conversely simple to get Linux bootloaders like Lilo and Grub to boot Vista or damned near anything else.

Some folks here more familiar with Mint may know if it's built in partitioner is worth a damn or friendly which could change things. Otherwise stick w/ GParted. It's great.

Hope this helps
Jimmy


----------



## enorbet2

Got ideas? Like Money? Want to see ideas realized? Want to see serious Linux news? 
Look Here

http://tinyurl.com/atkyhv

Jimmy


----------



## newt111

I already installed Vista, (came in yeterday from Newegg)and have unpartitioned space for Linux. so my swap is gonna have to come after that, then mint.

I'm gonna get Gparted to finish the rest...wish me luck!

It looks like Gparted will let me move partitions...so maybe I can still have my swap at the beginning..hmm


----------



## enorbet2

Newt, Looks like you're on the way not only to get installed but toward really owning your own PC. GParted is really great. It is basically a clone of PQMagic which did better under it's originator, PowerQuest, since now that it has been bought out my the Symmantec-Norton people it has gotten stodgy and slow to be updated... typical of closed source software and one good reason to seek and support Open Source.

When PQMagic came out it was an absolute revelation and revolution. Before it's friendly and visual interface came out partitioning was dangerous and frightening, like flying with only one eye open. PQMagic took that and not only abolished the fear, it made it actually fun. Plus, it could save your butt if and when a partition became corrupted it could very often rescue it and all your data too. GParted does all that and more. It isn't as polished looking as PQMagic but it is still friendly while PQMagic has gotten a little clunky with too many pretty buttons.

After you see how cool GParted is you will get a glimpse of why Linux is so cool and whether the future lies in proprietary OpSys ot Open Source. Welcome aboard the maglev train to the future.


----------



## newt111

I'm already all about open source. I could't figure out how to move my partitions, so the swap is after Vista. It would only let me resize them. I got Mint up and running last night.

I like that it found my vid drivers for me. The hardest part of the whole thing was the partitioning...the Mint noob guide helped me figure it all out.

I'm looking forward to playing around with it once I get Vista whipped into shape


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz Newt
By Lime do you mean the music notation editing software? If so you might like knowing it apparently works with Wine in Linux. Did you use GParted? Should've been able to just drag the partition graphic with your mouse. Oh well no huge deal


----------



## Drakan290

Here comes an extremely long winded reply from me.
I pulled down Ubuntu 8.04 LTS x64 to use on my school computer, and with good reason, I am going into Network security, and I wanted to mess around with Backtrack, and various other penetration testing distros and softwares, but wanted to learn the basics first, from an easy to use, down to earth distro. I used it for around 4 months of school work only, no games except the built in bubble breaker type games that came with the 'puter.
There were tons of problems right from the start. My school uses a WEP pre shared key, using MS PEAP, not LEAP or any other version of encryption. Well, it seems Ubuntu never included support for this AT ALL. Not through the GUI not through editing text files. I spent about 4 hours of pure research and nobody found an answer, or the thread ended up dead because nobody knew what to do. Well, I thought hell, I can live without internet in class, right? I'm not supposed to be using the web in class anyway.

Next comes OpenOffice. Openoffice is far behind where it should be. My college has moved to Office 07, and guess what, OOo doesn't included right out of the park integration with Office 07... So I spent a while trying experimental plugins to get it to work -- to no avail. I was getting formatting errors, problems with margins, ick ick ick, it just 'didn't work'.

Finally, games. I know this was a school laptop, but I got a high powered book to be able to run CAD/CAM and some light gaming at friends' houses just to try it. I loved the Compiz Fusion effects, the cube and window effects, but Steam doesn't like them at all. To play any games, you have to revert to a basic window management scheme, which is bland and boring.

Another thing that irks me... All of the linux 'gurus' are all about 'back to the basics'. The average user likes flashy cool effects, but all of the effects mess with any and every program you try to run, be it a graphical error artifact type of problem, or a problem with it freezing due to moving the window. I think this is partly the problem with all of the purist linux users, who want everyone to run everything through command line only.. I sure as hell don't mind command line, I use it on a daily basis, but I sure as hell like GUI more than I like command line, and it DOES make life easier if you run daily tasks through a GUI instead of doing everything in command line. Finally, the purists tell you to 'start' with ubuntu, and migrate to something like Debian or Gentoo... Why the f would I want to 'start' distros and then more or less DOWNGRADE to another distro? It's like going from Windows Vista to Windows XP, or Windows XP to Windows 2000, because it's 'faster'... Don't care if it's faster, I like the looks of my OS and I want to keep it!

To sum it all up, I do not think that Linux is ready for the education environment, nor the home office work that some people make it out to be ready for. I think that there still needs to be quite a bit of work done to it before it can become more mainstream, be it in Office, Gaming, the actual User base, or networking support.

Anyway, that's my $5 (def. more than $0.02, heh). Hopefully people will learn from this...


----------



## newt111

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Greetz Newt
By Lime do you mean the music notation editing software? If so you might like knowing it apparently works with Wine in Linux. Did you use GParted? Should've been able to just drag the partition graphic with your mouse. Oh well no huge deal


No, I meant Mint...they're both green









Gparted--I tried that, but didn't work---tried dragging the vista partition and the swap and nothing happened


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Drakan290*


Here comes an extremely long winded reply from me.
I pulled down Ubuntu 8.04 LTS x64 to use on my school computer, and with good reason, I am going into Network security, and I wanted to mess around with Backtrack, and various other penetration testing distros and softwares, but wanted to learn the basics first, from an easy to use, down to earth distro. I used it for around 4 months of school work only, no games except the built in bubble breaker type games that came with the 'puter.


Here comes an extremely long winded reply to your reply.









Quote:



Originally Posted by *Drakan290*


There were tons of problems right from the start. My school uses a WEP pre shared key, using MS PEAP, not LEAP or any other version of encryption. Well, it seems Ubuntu never included support for this AT ALL. Not through the GUI not through editing text files. I spent about 4 hours of pure research and nobody found an answer, or the thread ended up dead because nobody knew what to do. Well, I thought hell, I can live without internet in class, right? I'm not supposed to be using the web in class anyway.


Well, 4 hours, you say? I got a result with a google search for 'MS PEAP linux' which looks to be on the right track. And besides, a proprietry MS format isn't going to be the best supported thing in the world, no.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Drakan290*


Next comes OpenOffice. Openoffice is far behind where it should be. My college has moved to Office 07, and guess what, OOo doesn't included right out of the park integration with Office 07... So I spent a while trying experimental plugins to get it to work -- to no avail. I was getting formatting errors, problems with margins, ick ick ick, it just 'didn't work'.


'integration'? I think you are using the wrong word, if you mean 'compatibility' then it does. You can save documents in oo.org and open them in Office 07. I've never had problems with formatting, but I guess you may have done. Again, proprietry MS formats are a pain in the arse.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Drakan290*


Finally, games. I know this was a school laptop, but I got a high powered book to be able to run CAD/CAM and some light gaming at friends' houses just to try it. I loved the Compiz Fusion effects, the cube and window effects, but Steam doesn't like them at all. To play any games, you have to revert to a basic window management scheme, which is bland and boring.


In fairness, I don't see how turning off effects to game is a problem... It's not like you'll be looking at them anyway, heck, how often do you play games non-fullscreen where you will see the window manager? I'd also like to note it's possible to exclude cirtain applications from rendering effects with compiz, you could use that to stop steam from having issues, while keeping effects on.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Drakan290*


Another thing that irks me... All of the linux 'gurus' are all about 'back to the basics'. The average user likes flashy cool effects, but all of the effects mess with any and every program you try to run, be it a graphical error artifact type of problem, or a problem with it freezing due to moving the window. I think this is partly the problem with all of the purist linux users, who want everyone to run everything through command line only.. I sure as hell don't mind command line, I use it on a daily basis, but I sure as hell like GUI more than I like command line, and it DOES make life easier if you run daily tasks through a GUI instead of doing everything in command line. Finally, the purists tell you to 'start' with ubuntu, and migrate to something like Debian or Gentoo... Why the f would I want to 'start' distros and then more or less DOWNGRADE to another distro? It's like going from Windows Vista to Windows XP, or Windows XP to Windows 2000, because it's 'faster'... Don't care if it's faster, I like the looks of my OS and I want to keep it!


They are saying that because the 'linux gurus' are generally people who know a lot about their system, and want very fine control. I, for example, run Arch, because I want to choose exactly what makes up my system, and am happy to configure it by hand to get it just how I want it. People will reccomend you more advanced distros if they think you want that too, and people tend to think you are like them.
If you don't want to run a lower-level distro, just don't. Some of us enjoy it and find it worthwhile, others, most people, in fact, won't. Ubuntu is perfectly good for those people.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Drakan290*


To sum it all up, I do not think that Linux is ready for the education environment, nor the home office work that some people make it out to be ready for. I think that there still needs to be quite a bit of work done to it before it can become more mainstream, be it in Office, Gaming, the actual User base, or networking support.

Anyway, that's my $5 (def. more than $0.02, heh). Hopefully people will learn from this...


I think you, like so many, have gone out looking for problems with the operating system. I applaud you for using it, but you have yet to mention what you have used and liked, etc... And making an issue out of gaming, for example, is somewhat re-inventing the wheel. Gaming has never been, and will never be, a strong point for Linux until developers start going cross-platform.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
Maybe it's because I started with and continued with Slackware that this is so obvious to me since Slack comes with several window managers menued within any graphics/login manager - xdm, gdm or kdm. Maybe it is the advantage of booting to cli and then selecting one of those managers but I boot to cli and choose kdm. From kdm I can choose any number of window managers and I have installed more than the defaults just to try them out or see how they've progressed.

The point is that I generally use KDE which has a sizeable resource footprint but lot's of features to do work. It has a compiz fusion enabled xorg.conf but I've set it up so that I have to manually start the Beryl manager if I want all the eye candy. If I wish to game I just hit Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to get bacl to kdm and there select Fluxbox or Xfce4 both of which have tiny feet and since I don't start Beryl I have a great basic and fast gaming platform that Steam likes just fine.

Besides this I also just have to ask what kind of administrator employs WEP when WPA is more advanced and more secure? Mybe you could even get some brownie points by pointing this out as well as be able to connect since WPA is well covered in Linux. Win Win.

Jimmy


----------



## murderbymodem

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Drakan290*


To sum it all up, I do not think that Linux is ready for the education environment, nor the home office work that some people make it out to be ready for. I think that there still needs to be quite a bit of work done to it before it can become more mainstream, be it in Office, Gaming, the actual User base, or networking support.


How is it Linux's fault?

If your school used Linux and Linux only, everything would work perfectly fine! The problem is that you expect Linux to mesh perfectly with Microsoft's proprietary formats, and that will problably never happen because every time they come out with something new the Linux devs and the community are forced to spend long amounts of time trying to get it to work properly...Linux will never fuse perfectly with all of the newest Microsoft products.

and may I ask, why are you trying to open oOo documents in MS Word? Personally, I carry around a flash drive with me at all times, and on that flash drive I have portable Open Office. This allows me to save all of my work in oOo format, and be able to work on it on any computer in the school without worrying about compatability issues.

I don't see how anyone can survive without carrying around a flash drive these days...I coulden't live without my OperaUSB.


----------



## Drakan290

Responding to both of you here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware*
Well, 4 hours, you say? I got a result with a google search for 'MS PEAP linux' which looks to be on the right track. And besides, a proprietry MS format isn't going to be the best supported thing in the world, no.

I tried that. I tried many and everything, including going into protected system files as sudo and changing configuration files. It just 'didn't work' and was way to much to be asking of a home/office user, and that is where I see a huge downfall. The fact that it is NOT like the only other viable alternative, Mac, which their claim to fame is 'it just works'. Linux most certainly does not 'just work', it requires lots of time and investment, just to get it running at a decent parallel of a similar windows install.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware*
'integration'? I think you are using the wrong word, if you mean 'compatibility' then it does. You can save documents in oo.org and open them in Office 07. I've never had problems with formatting, but I guess you may have done. Again, proprietry MS formats are a pain in the arse.

They may be a pain, but it's what the majority of the business and education world uses, which is why I stand behind my claim that it is NOT ready for the education and business words quite yet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware*
In fairness, I don't see how turning off effects to game is a problem... It's not like you'll be looking at them anyway, heck, how often do you play games non-fullscreen where you will see the window manager? I'd also like to note it's possible to exclude cirtain applications from rendering effects with compiz, you could use that to stop steam from having issues, while keeping effects on.

It may not be a problem, but I would have liked it to be able to integrate better. I don't have to change to Vista basic to play high intensive 3d games on my Windows PC, why should I have to on Linux?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware*
They are saying that because the 'linux gurus' are generally people who know a lot about their system, and want very fine control. I, for example, run Arch, because I want to choose exactly what makes up my system, and am happy to configure it by hand to get it just how I want it. People will reccomend you more advanced distros if they think you want that too, and people tend to think you are like them.
If you don't want to run a lower-level distro, just don't. Some of us enjoy it and find it worthwhile, others, most people, in fact, won't. Ubuntu is perfectly good for those people.

I think you, like so many, have gone out looking for problems with the operating system. I applaud you for using it, but you have yet to mention what you have used and liked, etc... And making an issue out of gaming, for example, is somewhat re-inventing the wheel. Gaming has never been, and will never be, a strong point for Linux until developers start going cross-platform.

No, I actually went into this with open mind. I wanted it to be good, I really did. Linux let me down at almost every turn, be it Wifi, office, or even just basic use. Sure it's hella stable, but it doesn't work out of the box nearly as well as either Windows or Mac does, which is where I again, see it's problem.
I'll attempt an analogy here. It's like a clock. Sure, you can read the clock using only minute/hour hands and get an accurate enough reading, but wouldn't you rather have the second hand to know exactly what time it is? That's how I feel with linux. All of the 'basics' are there, but when you want precision it's like trying to fix an antique clock, if you don't have the skills beforehand, it's incredibly hard to fix.

Anyway, that's how I feel. I do NOT think that Linux is ready for the business or education markets, however I do feel that gurus and hobbyists alike can try AND like the OS for what it is; a power users OS. Something that can give amazing customization and many features you cannot find on a Windows PC without spending lots more time; but again, it is not, in my opinion, a regular persons' OS.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redmist* 
How is it Linux's fault?

If your school used Linux and Linux only, everything would work perfectly fine! The problem is that you expect Linux to mesh perfectly with Microsoft's proprietary formats, and that will problably never happen because every time they come out with something new the Linux devs and the community are forced to spend long amounts of time trying to get it to work properly...Linux will never fuse perfectly with all of the newest Microsoft products.

and may I ask, why are you trying to open oOo documents in MS Word? Personally, I carry around a flash drive with me at all times, and on that flash drive I have portable Open Office. This allows me to save all of my work in oOo format, and be able to work on it on any computer in the school without worrying about compatability issues.

I don't see how anyone can survive without carrying around a flash drive these days...I coulden't live without my OperaUSB.

I never said I was opening OOO documents in MS Word, I said I was opening MS Word documents in OOO. OOO doesn't mesh well at all with Word07, which is what I needed to be able to do.
Sure, if my entire school system switched to OOO and Linux it'd mesh. But they won't, and it doesn't, which is why Linux has too keep with MS Proprietary formats to gain user base. Nobody is going to switch from MS when they don't want/need to, just to 'try new things. Mother/baby duck syndrome at work there.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Drakan290*


No, I actually went into this with open mind. I wanted it to be good, I really did. Linux let me down at almost every turn, be it Wifi, office, or even just basic use. Sure it's hella stable, but it doesn't work out of the box nearly as well as either Windows or Mac does, which is where I again, see it's problem. 
I'll attempt an analogy here. It's like a clock. Sure, you can read the clock using only minute/hour hands and get an accurate enough reading, but wouldn't you rather have the second hand to know exactly what time it is? That's how I feel with linux. All of the 'basics' are there, but when you want precision it's like trying to fix an antique clock, if you don't have the skills beforehand, it's incredibly hard to fix.

Anyway, that's how I feel. I do NOT think that Linux is ready for the business or education markets, however I do feel that gurus and hobbyists alike can try AND like the OS for what it is; a power users OS. Something that can give amazing customization and many features you cannot find on a Windows PC without spending lots more time; but again, it is not, in my opinion, a regular persons' OS.


You say this, and yet, I believe it's simply your circumstances. I have a friend who I reccomended Ubuntu to, I gave him a CD, and left it up to him to install it. He did it alone, no problems, and had it up and running. The one problem he had was he didn't know about the package manager, and was trying to compile software. After I explained about the package manager, he runs Ubuntu all the time. He connects to a wifi network fine, uses OpenOffice fine, etc...

What you seem to be missing is that Linux is the operating system which gives you the time in milliseconds flat out, it's just you are so used to seeing the time in Hours, Minutes and Seconds you don't realise it.

Ubuntu does work out of the box in most situations. You were trying to connect to an unusual wifi network, I've never seen someone with the same problem (I'd also like to note you said there was no fix at all in the original post, when I found one in a few minutes), and I still don't see your problem with Org, it seems to make .doc files that work perfectly in M$ office for me.


----------



## error10

You need xsupplicant to log in to your school's wifi network. Since it's so uncommon, AND so old, you probably won't get much help or a nice GUI.


----------



## silentrhythm

From the first page of the thread:

Quote:



Originally Posted by *spice003*


I am not saying linux sucks cause i would gladly use it since its free but its too time consuming to learn it. But i got say with new releases coming out, i might switch in a year or two.


_Overclocking_ is time consuming to learn. You have to read all kinds of information, experiment with settings, restart constantly, buy new hardware, and risk damaging expensive equipment. Yet your running @ 4ghz







You've obviously put the time in to learn to tweak your hardware, put some time in to learning linux and the rewards will be far greater than increasing your FPS on crysis or your 3dmark score. Linux is here to stay, learn to use it now and you will be ahead of the curve. In many fields it's a valuable skill to employers, it may even get you a job someday.

When I play with linux, I treat it like a game. I could play through another FPS, which costs money. I enjoy it, beat it, move on to the next. Didn't gain much from it except for short-term pleasure. With linux, you will earn a return indefinitely in the form of free software and pleasure from using it for much time to come.

I think it's just about how you look at it - next time you start to fire up a video game, consider booting into linux and playing around with it. Find something you want to accomplish and see if you can make it happen. Don't let yourself get frustrated, if it's not fun boot back into windows and mess with it some more another time. Sorry for the rant, I just wanted to share my outlook. Go give it a try, and have fun!


----------



## thrashsoul

Quote:



Originally Posted by *silentrhythm*


From the first page of the thread:

_Overclocking_ is time consuming to learn. You have to read all kinds of information, experiment with settings, restart constantly, buy new hardware, and risk damaging expensive equipment. Yet your running @ 4ghz







You've obviously put the time in to learn to tweak your hardware, put some time in to learning linux and the rewards will be far greater than increasing your FPS on crysis or your 3dmark score. Linux is here to stay, learn to use it now and you will be ahead of the curve. In many fields it's a valuable skill to employers, it may even get you a job someday.

When I play with linux, I treat it like a game. I could play through another FPS, which costs money. I enjoy it, beat it, move on to the next. Didn't gain much from it except for short-term pleasure. With linux, you will earn a return indefinitely in the form of free software and pleasure from using it for much time to come.

I think it's just about how you look at it - next time you start to fire up a video game, consider booting into linux and playing around with it. Find something you want to accomplish and see if you can make it happen. Don't let yourself get frustrated, if it's not fun boot back into windows and mess with it some more another time. Sorry for the rant, I just wanted to share my outlook. Go give it a try, and have fun!


I know a place where you can get free windows software and games.


----------



## Cyth'Rawl

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thrashsoul*


I know a place where you can get free windows software and games.











That wouldn't be the virtual ocean of Sweden.....

In a dangerous Bay.......

Full of Pirates....

Would it?


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thrashsoul*


I know a place where you can get free windows software and games.










Is this place called... the internet?







muahaha

Seriously though, i've been 'running' a linux distro on my laptop for a year since last may. But i have only recently started to 'use' it. I really want to put arch back on there, but i need it for college and don't have the time to reconfigure it.

I really want to go for the arch + openbox + pypanel look that alot of people have now.


----------



## silentrhythm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thrashsoul* 
I know a place where you can get free windows software and games.









So do I, but it makes you feel like a criminal (because technically you are). And you put yourself at risk in several ways in doing so. And it's just not really a sustainable habit. Really, citing piracy as an alternative to free software isn't valid at all. What happens when that hole gets plugged and the well runs dry? You're already dependent on it, so you will be forced to anty up or look elsewhere.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boydyboyd*
I really want to go for the arch + openbox + pypanel look that alot of people have now.

i really recommend archlinux. it's great, it assumes you are competent, but not a kernel hacker. it is simple and clean, up to date, and easy to configure. it doesn't have every package in it's repository, but if it's not there it's most likely in the AUR (user repo) in some form. pacman is straightforward and blazingly fast.

arch is not at all like ubuntu, it doesn't configure anything automatically. it doesn't even install a gui at first. but the documentation and wiki is great, it will walk you through anything you need to do. if you have a desire to learn to really use linux, try arch part time. maybe don't set out to use it as your main OS until you really feel in control. like i said, look at it as a challenge. make it fun.

good luck, and enjoy!


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *silentrhythm*


I really recommend archlinux. it's great, it assumes you are competent, but not a kernel hacker. it is simple and clean, up to date, and easy to configure. it doesn't have every package in it's repository, but if it's not there it's most likely in the AUR (user repo) in some form. pacman is straightforward and blazingly fast.

arch is not at all like ubuntu, it doesn't configure anything automatically. it doesn't even install a gui at first. but the documentation and wiki is great, it will walk you through anything you need to do. if you have a desire to learn to really use linux, try arch part time. maybe don't set out to use it as your main OS until you really feel in control. like i said, look at it as a challenge. make it fun.

good luck, and enjoy!


Thanks. I'm partway through configuring and installing a GUI (i think...). I've downloaded and installed Xorg and i'm now downloading the massive nvidia drivers (38Mb). Good job i commented out all the servers that aren't in the UK in the mirrorlist file, it was going at 40kb/s earlier. :s


----------



## silentrhythm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boydyboyd* 
Thanks. I'm partway through configuring and installing a GUI (i think...). I've downloaded and installed Xorg and i'm now downloading the massive nvidia drivers (38Mb). Good job i commented out all the servers that aren't in the UK in the mirrorlist file, it was going at 40kb/s earlier. :s

edit: if you are in the UK, what you did is probably fine, since they will all be relatively close. this may still be helpful for someone else









take a look at http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/...avorite_mirror

i usually just pick one at the nearest big university, and it usually maxes out my connection. just pick your favorite one and add it to /etc/pacman.conf for each of core, testing, extra, and community. i'm not sure about the edit on the wiki page, but there may be a variable in /etc/pacman.d/mirrorlist where you can add it to just one place. i'd check, but i'm using gentoo now. just make a backup of the files before you edit them (good practice anyway), and if you have problems switch back.

don't mean to seem confusing, just trying to be descriptive


----------



## enorbet2

I am wondering how many different window managers people here have tried. Here's my list:

KDE
Dropline Gnome
Blackbox (ultimate speed)
Fluxbox
Xfce4
Enlightenment (super eye candy)
FVWM
FVM95
WindowMaker (cool icons)
IceWM

Watcha Got?
Jimmy


----------



## silentrhythm

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


I am wondering how many different window managers people here have tried. Here's my list:

KDE
Dropline Gnome
Blackbox (ultimate speed)
Fluxbox
Xfce4
Enlightenment (super eye candy)
FVWM
FVM95
WindowMaker (cool icons)
IceWM

Watcha Got?
Jimmy


well, after trying all those what's your favorite, or what are you using now?

i've stuck to the basics, just kde, gnome, xfce4, fluxbox. i can't quite get into kde4, it's still to rough around the edges. i just switched to using gnome primarily after being a long-time kde fan. gnome is very nice right now, simple and polished, and a fine level of bloat for me on this system. openbox does look intersting, i will have to check it out when i get a chance.

ps: amarok2 is awesome, i'm loving the integrated internet services. they did a pretty good job of sifting through the crap for you and giving you a decent selection of free music. i like that they integrate the magnatune store as well, but magnatune is spotty for my tastes. i usually put it on in the background when i'm studying or whatnot.


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


I am wondering how many different window managers people here have tried. Here's my list:

Watcha Got?
Jimmy


From best to worst that i've tried (imo)

Openbox (difficult to configure)
Gnome (what's to say, it's just gnome)
KDE (ok, great applets for on-screen, just very bulky)
XFCE (made me want to vomit, it's damn ugly)


----------



## enorbet2

Before I explain what I use as a window manager (maybe I should include a screenie) allow me please to explain a little background. I frequent a very small linux channel on IRC on the Freenet server called #linuxsphere. I have met some truly outrageous linux geeks there (all manner of distros) but especially alphageek, C4, and the moderator, amrit. All these guys mix and match in their wm's. Alphageek blew me away since his desktop is built on Blackbox, the most austere manager next to multiple consoles, but it looks as complex and beautiful as any KDE or Enlightenment system I've ever seen. Somehow, and way beyond my coding skills, he has applets from 3 wm's, icons from WindowManager and FVVM, and it still has an insignificant footprint. He also has a great website on dyndns.org.

So while we all are influnced by people we meet, we are also creatures of habit and seek that with which we've become familiar. Because I started with DOS, a file manager is just essential to me and I tend to prefer the "detailed view" that emphasizes text over objects. So I have a difficult time liking gnome because I don't like the Nautilus file manager. That goes as least as much for all the others, even though some have moderate KDE support where I can run "kfmclient", my favorite file manager. However I do really like some features of Enlightenment, the simplest but really good looking and useful being Eterm. I'm not hip enough, yet, to mix and match on the level that alphageek does, so I switch between two, fluxbox for gaming, and KDE with a fair bit of customization for everything else which in my case includes music and video authoring and editing.

My main desktop then is KDE, with a full screen width (but only 10 lines tall) Eterm permanently on display above the launchbar, with XMMS taking only one line in minimized mode but with EQ and Playlist each taking 1/3 of screen width. Being an avid overclocker and hardware obssessed, I have GKrellm along one side from top to bottom monitoring voltages, fan speed, temps, cpu, userspace, memory and swap, disk usage, wireless and LAN activity (tied in to Tripwire), amd also radio buttons for mounting/unmounting optical and flash drives and a few other controls.

I also think Amarok is an awesome app but for me it does some things like organizing a la picasa that I don't like and lacks some function imprtant to me such as compatibility with LADSPA plugins. So I tend to use Aqualung which isn't as polished looking but allows killer plugins like a great semi parametric EQ and Tube Warmth which I have adjusted for my speakers and sound card and is on all the time. I build drum and beat tracks with Hydrogen and edit with Audacity and especially Ardour. I disable some default KDE functions to keep the footprint small enough to still be snappy. However to be honest the config has become habit more than required since it was snappy on a Celeron II with half a gig of ram. With 2 Gigs of OC'd OCZ ram and this cpu, even switching to Fluxbox for modern games may be more peace of mind than based in need.

I was fortunate in timing in that the only way I got to be solid with Linux is to commit to not rebooting to XP every day and when I did this Quake 3 Arena, UT, abd a number of decent Loki ported games were fairly current so it was easy to resist the reboot for games. I wrestled with Steam a long time to get HalfLife 2 working but I am unsatisfied with the results graphically and I can't yet get latest GTA working well (although GTA 3 does run fine) so I'm back to rebooting sometimes but I am so much happier in Linux for everything else that going back to XP so often angers me with all the stuff going on behind the scenes and stupid messages and screw ups, not to mention speed, that I am still happiest (and most productive) in Linux with my modded KDE. Maybe I should consider an XBox or PS3 because I hate where windows is headed so much I won't even *pirate* Vista, let alone Windows 7.


----------



## murderbymodem

Get a PS3.

I have Ubuntu set up on PS3 and it's pretty cool. Set up the Sixaxis with a SNES emulator.







Really easy too. Plus it's very easy to go back to the PS3 game OS.


----------



## enorbet2

Hey Guys
Check this out. Rock solid and free

http://www.xenserver5.com/landing/linux/

Enjoy


----------



## thiussat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
I am wondering how many different window managers people here have tried. Here's my list:

KDE
Dropline Gnome
Blackbox (ultimate speed)
Fluxbox
Xfce4
Enlightenment (super eye candy)
FVWM
FVM95
WindowMaker (cool icons)
IceWM

Watcha Got?
Jimmy

KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, XFCE are not window managers. They are desktop environments. Window managers are defined merely by the decorations around your windows. Enlightenment, Emerald, and Kwin are examples of window managers.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thiussat*


KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, XFCE are not window managers. They are desktop environments. Window managers are defined merely by the decorations around your windows. Enlightenment, Emerald, and Kwin are examples of window managers.


 Thanks for the textbook definition but I contend that this is no longer accurate since they are evolving whether officially or by individuals. In short, the lones have blurred.

Here's just two wikis, one for FVWM which although seemingly losing official support still manages to be described thusly

< The F Virtual Window Manager (The F currently has no official meaning[1]) is a virtual window manager for the X Window system. Originally a twm derivative, FVWM has evolved into a powerful and highly configurable environment for UNIX systems. >

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FVWM

and Enlightenment is described

<Enlightenment, also known simply as E, is a free software window manager for the X Window System which can be used alone or in conjunction with a desktop environment such as GNOME or KDE. Enlightenment is often used as a substitute for a full desktop environment.>

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlight...window_manager)

Just as at one time a terminal, or console, could have been described as strictly a single user environment, and that is no longer completely accurate, so are the strict lines between window managers and desktop environments blurred. Similarly all shells have evolved far beyond their original limitations. It depends today and in the future on just how rigid you need your definitions of what become nebulous terms over time to be. I like the Open part of "Open Source" and the many levels on which it evolves, or dies out.


----------



## thiussat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
Thanks for the textbook definition but I contend that this is no longer accurate since they are evolving whether officially or by individuals. In short, the lones have blurred.

No, the lines have not blurred since they are different things to begin with. Gnome and KDE are much more than mere window managers. They are the entire desktop. I don't think most people would ever confuse Gnome with Enlightenment.

Quote:

Just as at one time a terminal, or console, could have been described as strictly a single user environment, and that is no longer completely accurate, so are the strict lines between window managers and desktop environments blurred.
Terminals as single user environments? I'm not sure what that means. Yes, more than one user can be logged into a terminal session on a single machine at once. But this has been the case (for Unix), for at least 30 years. And I'm not sure the analogy is a good one.

Quote:

Similarly all shells have evolved far beyond their original limitations. It depends today and in the future on just how rigid you need your definitions of what become nebulous terms over time to be. I like the Open part of "Open Source" and the many levels on which it evolves, or dies out.
This whole paragraph gave me a *** moment.


----------



## enorbet2

Since I don't wish to extend this disagreement ad infintum when there is so little to be gained even if a definitive resolution was possible and since I stipulated "at one time" so 30 tears is irrelevant to the point that it did indeed evolve to greater complexity and since I actually quoted supporting evidence and you did not it appears we have an impasse of opinion and interpretation of terms.

Since there is absolutely no doubt that window managers and desktop environments are not static and have in fact evolved and will likely continue to, apparently all we can do is disagree. I do agree that at one time there was a distinct difference between the two, after all and probably like you, I have read at least a dozen different O'Reilly books, some of which described them so ten years ago (and some of which have yet to be updated to newer editions, despite their overall excellent quality) so I do understand the original difference.

Just because there were still otherwise good astronomy books being printed 50 years ago assuming the Milky Way was the whole Universe didn't make it so and people who read and could think for themselves recognized the change and the change there was about an essentially static fact, at least at anything less than Deep Time, as it was only human perception and tools that changed. Shortly after Hubble discovered other galaxies he also discovered they were flying away from each other and the idea of the infinite static Universe died out with the exception of a few fringe holdouts, mostly religious zealots. In the "desltop/wm" argument even the subject is in flux.

I don't know what your agenda is that refuses to accept change but if that is your opinion, so be it. Let the chips fall where they may. On this, I'll quote the HAL 9000 "There is no point in further discussion"
Daisy, Daisy give mmmeeee......
L8z


----------



## enorbet2

Just because Windows 7 is coming out soon and from all the press it may actually not suck as bad as Vista, is no reason to put off giving Linux a spin. If anything the reasons continue to grow way beyond the fact that "upgrade" from XP especially has some difficulties not the least of which will likely be a One Hundred Dollar price tag (well.. plus the cost of One Care, Anti Virus etc) and I'm not saying Linux is only worthwhile because it is cheap/free. Cool things are in the works.

Linux Magazine has had a couple of interesting articles lately such has how the economy has pulled in ever more businesses into Open Source for two reasons - low cost and the fact that it works and if it doesn;t it's easy and legal to fix/customize it. They are so enamored of it they are talking about funding.... giving back (like a stimulus) for the OSS community. That's pretty cool in itself but I was more excited by this:

Debian is preparing an system that can operate on either the Linux kernel or the BSD kernel. This may not sound all that exciting but serious stuff is happening in the "closer to Unix" crowd and this step toward convergence and/or even multiple kernel types on one system bodes well for the future, especially for the masses that find so many distros confusing, but more importantly a greater availability of usable, Open Source software. Linux is not only not going away any time soon, it is growing rapidly which means whether your concerns that keep you from the challenge are drivers or gaming, those situations and others (such as they actually are) are going to improve more quickly. Spread the word - even if you just need to fix windows from outside the system and use a bootable CD or thumbdrive - Linux is worth learning.


----------



## RyanRacer48

This may have been pointed out but i'm not readin 100 pages.

If you want to try Linux and dont want to deal w/ dual booting or anything like that do what I do!

I do run linux excluslively on my server but on my rig i just run it in VMware.


----------



## DuckYy

from my experience with linux, it was fun to use in the beginning with the whole "hacking" thing but got old very fast. i used two different verision: knoppix and backtrack 3. both could be run off a cd but i installed backtrack 3 onto my computer. took 3days to finally install and dual boot with xp but i removed a few months ago. setting up permissions, finding drivers, researching took way too long and was boring. i only use it to crack wep/wpa now. i didnt find it faster than xp but it did look cooler with all the commands running on the screen on startup and the KDE desktop was cool although i can do that on xp too. overrall, i wouldnt recommend using it on a daily bases unless you use ubuntu i guess. never tried ubuntu although i have it downloaded. linux has different versions and not all them use the same commands so what might work in one will sometimes not work in another.

likes: KDE environment, "hacking" capabilties, makes you look like a genuis if you use it in front of other people

dislikes: researching and setting up linux


----------



## evermooingcow

I have a Linux vs Windows argument with a friend all the time.

I've come to the conclusion that if you agree with the Windows design concept of providing a preconfigured package out of the box so that users "can spend time doing something more important" then Windows is probably a good choice for you.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


from my experience with linux, it was fun to use in the beginning with the whole "hacking" thing but got old very fast. i used two different verision: knoppix and backtrack 3. both could be run off a cd but i installed backtrack 3 onto my computer. took 3days to finally install and dual boot with xp but i removed a few months ago. setting up permissions, finding drivers, researching took way too long and was boring. i only use it to crack wep/wpa now. i didnt find it faster than xp but it did look cooler with all the commands running on the screen on startup and the KDE desktop was cool although i can do that on xp too. overrall, i wouldnt recommend using it on a daily bases unless you use ubuntu i guess. never tried ubuntu although i have it downloaded. linux has different versions and not all them use the same commands so what might work in one will sometimes not work in another.

likes: KDE environment, "hacking" capabilties, makes you look like a genuis if you use it in front of other people

dislikes: researching and setting up linux


You used a customized Linux distribution designed for a single set of tasks, and expected it to perform well for other things for which it wasn't designed? Be realistic, please. You wouldn't dry your wet shoes with a toaster.


----------



## DuckYy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
You used a customized Linux distribution designed for a single set of tasks, and expected it to perform well for other things for which it wasn't designed? Be realistic, please. You wouldn't dry your wet shoes with a toaster.

yes, one of them was designed for with a set tasks in mind but its LINUX, meaning its customizable. and i tried customizing it which was a pain in the ass. i tried using it for basic stuff such as video playback but couldnt get it to work. i used it for word documentation and that was fine. besides simple stuff like that, i play games and you cant do that with linux. i still use linux from time to time and shown other people to linux. its a good OS but just not for me. just trying to give my opinion thats all


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


yes, one of them was designed for with a set tasks in mind but its LINUX, meaning its customizable. and i tried customizing it which was a pain in the ass. i tried using it for basic stuff such as video playback but couldnt get it to work. i used it for word documentation and that was fine. besides simple stuff like that, i play games and you cant do that with linux. i still use linux from time to time and shown other people to linux. its a good OS but just not for me. just trying to give my opinion thats all


I wouldn't try playing videos or games on Backtrack either. That's like putting your wet shoes in the microwave.







You may find a different distribution works better for what you want to do.


----------



## DuckYy

^lol. you and your wet shoes. you think they would dry if someone put them in there? back to linux, any recommendation then? i dont do much on the computer besides surfing the internet, media, office, and games. i tried installing bt3 with vlc but could never get that thing to work. also, i was looking for a linux version of powerpoint before i decided to just stop using linux.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


^lol. you and your wet shoes. you think they would dry if someone put them in there? back to linux, any recommendation then? i dont do much on the computer besides surfing the internet, media, office, and games. i tried installing bt3 with vlc but could never get that thing to work. also, i was looking for a linux version of powerpoint before i decided to just stop using linux.


OpenOffice.org Impress. It's in most major linux distros.

Oh, and use a package manager to install stuff, if you do, it'll work fine.

And the distro to use is Ubuntu, as always, if you are new and unsure.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


from my experience with linux, it was fun to use in the beginning with the whole "hacking" thing


 Hacking isn't specific to breaking into networks. Hacking is making the most of a little in a creative way. Overclocking is a hack. The term GNU, from Richard Stallman's GNU Linux, is an acronym hack since it is a self replicating progression like two mirrors facing each other. Specifically Linux was originally built by hackers for hackers exactly because virtually all aspects, right down to the kernel, are open to anything from slight mod, to adaptive scripting to complete rewrites.

<snip>

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


setting up permissions, finding drivers, researching took way too long and was boring. i only use it to crack wep/wpa now.


 Anyone really concerned with security of any kind views the setting of permissions as an essential privilege not a chore. Windows, especially with Vista and carried on with Windows 7, reluctantly gives this privilege on a limited basis with one hand and takes it away with the other, using a broad, sweeping security level setting complete with a disclaimer (and a laughable firewall) you must accept relieving them of any responsibility and opening the door to sell you other "tools" like Registry "fixers" and the "One Care" service. If all you can think of interesting or useful to do is crack wireless security such tools exist for windows. Even "nmap" and the awesome "Nessus" are now available for windows, albeit many years after they first came out, free, for Linux. Finding drivers, or researching what hardware is supported first before buying, is a small price to pay for such power and no nonsense security.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


i didnt find it faster than xp but it did look cooler with all the commands running on the screen on startup and the KDE desktop was cool although i can do that on xp too.


 Instead of writing bloated code that constantly requires users to replace their hardware, Linux is designed to be scaleable which is why Linux can not only run an entire OpSys from a lousy 1.4MB floppy (eg: Freesco) but operates embedded in virtually every cell phone and tiny appliance on the planet. A cell phone running Vista would require a backpack. However just because it can run small doesn't mean it can "go Big". It just requires and allows a little tweaking not possible in windows of any flavor.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


overrall, i wouldnt recommend using it on a daily bases unless you use ubuntu i guess. never tried ubuntu although i have it downloaded.


 You are certainly welcome to express your opinion, Ducky, but I might suggest that it is a bit revealing how valuable that opinion is when you recommend something of which you have essentially zero experience. Why not go ahead and install it and actually discover how friendly it is to windows migrators, even if only to CD or better, thumbdrive? Instead of two weeks, try using it for everything but gaming for two months, visiting some forums. some IRC rooms, some HowTo's, or even reading a book to find out what you're really missing? Coming from Windows which is designed to keep you weak, nobody really has a clue just what is possible in Linux any more than driving a car with an automatic transmission qualifies one to fly an F-18. The "manual" may seem boring at first but the payoff is AMAZING!

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


linux has different versions and not all them use the same commands so what might work in one will sometimes not work in another.


 I'm not certain exactly to what you are referring here Ducky but it is dangerous to let this just sit so I need to clarify. There are extremely few commands that do not, or can not, exist in all distros of Linux. The main exception are package management commands which are basically only of 4 varieties (Debian, RedHat, Gentoo, and Slackware) which comprise less than one percent (0.01) of all commands. OTOH some distros allow the choice during install of command environment (all do, ultimately, since any of them can be installed) but almost all default to BASH which is essentially the same for any distro. So basically it is not true that commands vary in Linux for most users, or at least, have to vary.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


likes: KDE environment, "hacking" capabilties, makes you look like a genuis if you use it in front of other people


<snip>

Anyone who just wants to "look like a genius" and fake out their friends might as well just stick with Windows and download a custom boot screen and desktop (or even just a KDE desktop background) and do what they consider "more important things" since as Thomas Edison pointed out "Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration".

That said, since it still takes a lot of "perspiration" to properly overclock (although a lot less than it used to) I can't quite imagine that someone like Ducky is totally adverse to a little work as long as he is aware the payoff will actually be worth it. As someone who started out totally ignorant of Linux's power payoff back in 1998 with Mandrake, tried at least a dozen distros, and settled on Slackware updating through each version from v7 through v12.1, and who uses Linux for over 90% of time/work, I can say I had no idea just how big the payoff would be and I can't possibly count all the times I have done something and said to myself "I fscking LOVE Linux!" Simply put, if you like owning your computer, it is way more than just worth the investment.

Respectfully
Jimmy


----------



## newphase

^
That, Jimmy, was a great post.


----------



## DuckYy

haha. wow, i totally got "served". no hurt feelings.

umm, where to start. for the permission, it was just annoying me that i could never get it properly set up. i would be able to read and excute files in the ntfs partition under root but while under a regular user, i could never get it to let me excute the files. thanks for mentioning nmap and nessus. i'll have to check it it. the main reason i used linux was to crack wep since i still use dial up =/. thanks for clearing up all my mistakes. (hope this post doesnt make me look like an idiot like the other ones)


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *DuckYy*


haha. wow, i totally got "served". no hurt feelings.

umm, where to start. for the permission, it was just annoying me that i could never get it properly set up. i would be able to read and excute files in the ntfs partition under root but while under a regular user, i could never get it to let me excute the files. thanks for mentioning nmap and nessus. i'll have to check it it. the main reason i used linux was to crack wep since i still use dial up =/. thanks for clearing up all my mistakes. (*hope this post doesnt make me look like an idiot like the other ones*)


lol, hell no. Linux is the 2nd most difficult to understand thing on the planet (the first being Blood Types). I use it every day and it still stumps me, often. I have crazy respect for the linux gurus.

Permissions annoy me too. I know they are there for the protection of everyone but it's basically the idea behind UAC in windows now, and people always turn that off.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *boydyboyd*


lol, hell no. Linux is the 2nd most difficult to understand thing on the planet (the first being Blood Types). I use it every day and it still stumps me, often. I have crazy respect for the linux gurus.

Permissions annoy me too. I know they are there for the protection of everyone but it's basically the idea behind UAC in windows now, and people always turn that off.


Most of the time Linux is not hard to understand. It just has alot you need to learn about it.


----------



## evermooingcow

I think Windows permissions system is far more complicated then Linux. It just doesn't come up as often for normal desktop use...but when it does OMG


----------



## Boyboyd

Quote:



Originally Posted by *evermooingcow*


I think Windows permissions system is far more complicated then Linux. It just doesn't come up as often for normal desktop use...but when it does OMG


That is a good point. In 7 you can set it by a slider, but it still appears way too frequently on the bottom one.


----------



## Acoma_Andy

I just installed Ubuntu 9.04. Already had my first mishap trying to install a simple thing like Flash Player. It said something about being incompatible (I did download the Linux version). So I'm going to look into that now


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Acoma_Andy*


I just installed Ubuntu 9.04. Already had my first mishap trying to install a simple thing like Flash Player. It said something about being incompatible (I did download the Linux version). So I'm going to look into that now










Here is the problem, you are in the windows mindset still.

Remember, you use the package manager for anything application related except as a last resort.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Re...ntrepid%20Ibex)

(Not for 9.04, but should work still)


----------



## Acoma_Andy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Here is the problem, you are in the windows mindset still.

Remember, you use the package manager for anything application related except as a last resort.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Re...ntrepid%20Ibex)

(Not for 9.04, but should work still)

Windows mindset? No, not really. I'm aware that I'm using another OS. The problem appears to be that I have 64-bit


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Acoma_Andy*


Windows mindset? No, not really. I'm aware that I'm using another OS. The problem appears to be that I have 64-bit










But you don't yet understand Linux. It's like... If you were taking Tae Kwon Do and then tried something like Kenpo... You'd still be trying to apply your Tae Kwon Do mindset to your Kenpo even though you know you're doing Kenpo now.

In Linux, you want to use the package manager to install stuff. Go to Add/Remove Software/Programs, type in "flash" and it or an alternative should be available. You click, you hit "accept," you type in your password, and you have it installed.

The only time you should download a file from which to install is if it's not in the package manager's repositories or if you want to compile from source.


----------



## Acoma_Andy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
But you don't yet understand Linux. It's like... If you were taking Tae Kwon Do and then tried something like Kenpo... You'd still be trying to apply your Tae Kwon Do mindset to your Kenpo even though you know you're doing Kenpo now.

In Linux, you want to use the package manager to install stuff. Go to Add/Remove Software/Programs, type in "flash" and it or an alternative should be available. You click, you hit "accept," you type in your password, and you have it installed.

The only time you should download a file from which to install is if it's not in the package manager's repositories or if you want to compile from source.

Oh hey thanks, no problem, I keep learning


----------



## grayskunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
But you don't yet understand Linux. It's like... If you were taking Tae Kwon Do and then tried something like Kenpo... You'd still be trying to apply your Tae Kwon Do mindset to your Kenpo even though you know you're doing Kenpo now.
...

What a good analogy







Can MacOS be Karate? It is used successfully by some but in reality is for self esteem building in children?
I think BSD can be Drunken Boxing with no opponents.


----------



## enorbet2

First of all, props. Thanks, Newphase (/me bows) I appreciate the compliment as well as a civilized but decidedly informative flame-free forum so thanks to Lattyware, too. Finally, mad props to Ducky. Ducky, you did get served on the first post but your follow-up post was highly commendable and deserves considerable respect. Good humor on top of tenacity along with am ability to accept constructive criticism will likely take you wherever you want to go. We can all get lazy, especially when others plot to keep us ignorant and weak. I am very fond of an old Sicilian truism "Only a good friend will tell you when your face is dirty". 'Nuff said.

Regarding Mac and BSD: While we're on the subject of karate analogies, let me propose that OSX is something like Bruce Lee in American films. On the surface is this skinny little guy with an open face and a big grin and a silly squawk. Underneath was an incredibly disciplined but notably loose and flexible powerhouse of shocking power and whose abilities were only barely revealed in still somewhat biased American films.

Where the analogy breaks down is that Apple has gone through dramatic changes, not the least of which was when Woz, the good-natured hacker, left the company to, shall we say, more competitive types. Even though Apple started out with both Woz and Jobs seeking to lead a revolution to unseat what they saw as a tyrannical, resistant to change, dictatorship in IBM, they were actually suppressed by Billy and the Boys at Microsoft, not IBM. To get back to a more martial arts oriented analogy, it wasn't the Shogun but a brother group of Samurai that "betrayed" and marginalized them. Incidentally if you love spy/mystery/detective/murder/war stories you really should at least watch one of the several movies, or better, read a book about the incredible triangle battle at the birth of the personal computer. It's truly a Life Lesson to see how Jobs was beaten and somewhat corrupted by what he saw as a humiliating defeat of quality at the hand of a pandering pimp. The original Mac vs/ Dos battle featured Mac offerring HUGE advantage at memory addressing, partition size, file system and segmentation and much, much more while Microsoft's pandering to legacy to beat Mac at any cost to Computing as a whole, set back PC development at least 20 years worth in both hardware and software. It's a thoroughly fascinating story. One of the tragedies is that the defeat forced compromise on Jobs/Apple if they wished to continue to exist. One of those compromised methods is extreme devotion to the proprietary, even more than M$. Only recently as Jobs has felt more secure in the odds that Apple will not only survive but flourish, has Apple begun to even consider relinquishing it's death grip.

Steve Jobs' decision to build OSX out of BSD was absolutely brilliant and may one day be heralded as the single most important decision he ever made second only to being friends with Woz and talking him into business in the first place. Much of BSD's power is still in there but it is both buried and in some cases crippled. My cousin writes for several Mac publications and when he showed me his OSX box and I opened a terminal his comment was "What the Hello is that?" When I showed him what "grep" and "sed" could do he had to take his jaw off the floor and that was only two commands! Mac guys get impressed easily when you can pop the hood and show them they have a fuel injected engine... er.. sorry, seven samurai with sharp katanas (don't wanna mix metaphors). However on the downside one can't just download any Open Source program and compile and install it. Mac is enough like Linux that game development for Mac makes it easier/cheaper to also make a Linux version available but some vendors view Linux geeks as a non-market of pirates so it's anybody's guess what will happen there especially considering that Unreal Tournament folks who acted so gung-ho about releasing once again the newest version for Linux as well and after all this time only a closed beta is available.

But I digress... The bottom line is that OSX =! BSD. Having said that though, it is commendable that even though kids find OSX friendly it is decidedly not just for kids. It's for power users with money.


----------



## antd

I JUST tried Linux because of this topic (Ubuntu)

It was horrible. My trackpad cursor would move slowly. It would take 100 swipes to move it a few centimeters. I searched and nothing would fix it.

Simply, this problem alone shows how ubuntu is unusable on my macbook

It's a shame.

Now I'm back to OSX and I wondered why I tried ubuntu in the first place


----------



## CorporalAris

Quote:



Originally Posted by *antd*


I JUST tried Linux because of this topic (Ubuntu)

It was horrible. My trackpad cursor would move slowly. It would take 100 swipes to move it a few centimeters. I searched and nothing would fix it.

Simply, this problem alone shows how ubuntu is unusable on my macbook

It's a shame.

Now I'm back to OSX and I wondered why I tried ubuntu in the first place










Umm....

I think your doing it wrong.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CorporalAris* 
Umm....

I think your doing it wrong.

+1

If you were expecting Ubuntu to work straight out of the box (which it USUALLY does), then it failed at that. That doesn't mean it's an overall horrible OS, though.

But I agree on this part: Linux sucks when it comes to trackpads.


----------



## denrocks2

I really hate linux....


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *denrocks2*


I really hate linux....


Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing.


----------



## denrocks2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing.


You're Welcome, glad to help


----------



## newt111

I love Linux...no particular reason though


----------



## enorbet2

I may have mentioned this before and if so please forgive me. Pollen has me on antihistamine which makes me feel like Charly at the end of "Flowers of Algernon". Anyway here is a good article with some cool tricks for Konqueror and an opportunity to register to get Linux Magazine in your email.

http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7320/1.html

Enjoy
Jimmy


----------



## Acreo Aeneas

I find it funny that the OP post is aimed at those using Windows and Linux, but fail to include Mac OS in the mix as well. I feel Mac users would be hardest to get to use Linux (or at least convert).

I happen to fall into the second category: Likes Linux and runs it. Though, I've gotten into a few heated debates with other Windows users and Mac users over trying out/using a Linux OS (mostly Ubuntu). Most of them unfortunately try it out once or twice and then go right back to Windows or Mac OS(X).

I'm considering trying out DSL on my old server-desktop rig upstairs and maybe go through Fedora 11 too just to see how different it is from when I last used it (Fedora 4).


----------



## esocid

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Acreo Aeneas* 
I find it funny that the OP post is aimed at those using Windows and Linux, but fail to include Mac OS in the mix as well. I feel Mac users would be hardest to get to use Linux (or at least convert).

I happen to fall into the second category: Likes Linux and runs it. Though, I've gotten into a few heated debates with other Windows users and Mac users over trying out/using a Linux OS (mostly Ubuntu). Most of them unfortunately try it out once or twice and then go right back to Windows or Mac OS(X).

I'm considering trying out DSL on my old server-desktop rig upstairs and maybe go through Fedora 11 too just to see how different it is from when I last used it (Fedora 4).

<rant>
I partially agree with you. Mac users these days are either pretentious about it, or they love it for art/graphic design/video editing or programming. The latter I don't mind, they're actually using it for a reason, but the former are either fanboys or just ignorant about why Macs aren't superior. Most of them are simply buying a laptop because it has an apple on it. It's strange how a company which has this hippy/idealist image has become more closed and proprietary than M$ has. Not to say that M$ isn't any less underhanded in that department, just look back on this whole OOXML debacle. Probably because of Jobs' not being such an influence anymore, but Mac is slowly edging out M$ and SCO in the realm of software evil, and Rambus in the realm of hardware.

On the other hand, Windows users are either happy with it and don't care to change, don't even know there are alternatives, or die-hard fanboys who won't listen to reason. That last group are the ones who like to argue that Windows is actually more secure than open source OSs. Nothing to do but walk away, no converting there.
</rant>

But I digress...lol
My original point was to say if FC4 was your last trial you will really love F10 or 11 (official release is later this month). So much more hardware works "out of box" and it's so much easier to configure things. I really struggled with FC5 to get my wireless working on my laptop with ndiswrapper but it worked with F9 automatically.
Plus I think it was with 8 that they added the eye-candy. I love 10. I think you'll like it. Check out my sig for post-install guides. Install emerald, compiz-fusion, gnome-compiz-manager, etc. for the extra eye-candy. You'll need rpm-fusion and livna repos for that I believe.


----------



## thiussat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *esocid* 
<rant>
I partially agree with you. Mac users these days are either pretentious about it, or they love it for art/graphic design/video editing or programming. The latter I don't mind, they're actually using it for a reason, but the former are either fanboys or just ignorant about why Macs aren't superior. Most of them are simply buying a laptop because it has an apple on it. It's strange how a company which has this hippy/idealist image has become more closed and proprietary than M$ has. Not to say that M$ isn't any less underhanded in that department, just look back on this whole OOXML debacle. Probably because of Jobs' not being such an influence anymore, but Mac is slowly edging out M$ and SCO in the realm of software evil, and Rambus in the realm of hardware.

On the other hand, Windows users are either happy with it and don't care to change, don't even know there are alternatives, or die-hard fanboys who won't listen to reason. That last group are the ones who like to argue that Windows is actually more secure than open source OSs. Nothing to do but walk away, no converting there.
</rant>

But I digress...lol
My original point was to say if FC4 was your last trial you will really love F10 or 11 (official release is later this month). So much more hardware works "out of box" and it's so much easier to configure things. I really struggled with FC5 to get my wireless working on my laptop with ndiswrapper but it worked with F9 automatically.
Plus I think it was with 8 that they added the eye-candy. I love 10. I think you'll like it. Check out my sig for post-install guides. Install emerald, compiz-fusion, gnome-compiz-manager, etc. for the extra eye-candy. You'll need rpm-fusion and livna repos for that I believe.

I agree. Linux is superior to OS X in just about every way (outside of perhaps video editing stuff). And Linux can run on standard PC hardware, something OS X can only do with a hacked version (Hackintosh). This is a huge advantage for the user that doesn't want to shell out 2 grand for a computer with slower hardware than can be had at half the price if buying PC hardware.

Both Linux and OS X are based on UNIX, so they both operate similarly at the shell level. But I would say Linux is more secure because OS X is lacking in ASLR and other memory protection mechanisms that both Linux and (gasp) Windows have. (OS X "Snow Leopard" will have *full* ASLR, but it's not out yet). Linux has Pax, ProPolice, exec-shield as well as GCC flags that help stop buffer overflow exploits. Vista and Win 7 have similar technologies. Apple is way behind the curve on memory protections.

I will hand it to Apple, though, for borrowing Sun's ZFS filesystem and DTrace. BSD also has taken the same technologies (and I hope Linux will one day, but unlikely unless Oracle GPL's them).

Basically, what I am saying is why pay a lot of $$ for a MAC when you can run Linux on cheaper PC hardware for free? Or if you don't like Linux, then you have BSD (from which OS X is based). I mean Apple has just taken BSD, created a few cool userland apps, and put an Apple logo on it and charged a hefty price for it.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:



Originally Posted by *esocid*


<rant>
I partially agree with you. Mac users these days are either pretentious about it, or they love it for art/graphic design/video editing or programming. The latter I don't mind, they're actually using it for a reason, but the former are either fanboys or just ignorant about why Macs aren't superior.


I'm experienced in all of the above OSs. I simply find OSX to be an easier OS to use. In my case, it's superior in that it makes desktop work fast. Linux doesn't really have anything that matches Spotlight (and its integrated dictionary and calculator features, for example, which I use all the time). Screenlets and Plasmoids are much less polished than Widgets. I don't know of anything in Linux that matches the speed and functionality of Quicksilver. I haven't run into any video editing software for Linux that's as good as iMovie (not that it's the best, of course).

Don't get me wrong: I don't dislike Linux at all. If I weren't using OSX, I'd be using Linux (as my desktop OS). It's just that I find that OSX is superior for my purposes.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *esocid*


Most of them are simply buying a laptop because it has an apple on it.


Most? I think that's a PC-forum delusion. Many, certainly, but I doubt most.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *esocid*


My original point was to say if FC4 was your last trial you will really love F10 or 11 (official release is later this month).


I agree. Linux makes exponential leaps with every release.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thiussat*


Basically, what I am saying is why pay a lot of $$ for a MAC when you can run Linux on cheaper PC hardware for free? Or if you don't like Linux, then you have BSD (from which OS X is based).


I have to tell you... They're just not the same.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thiussat*


I mean Apple has just taken BSD, created a few cool userland apps, and put an Apple logo on it and charged a hefty price for it.


Well those few cool apps are the deal maker. I use my computer for desktop work between 4 and 12 hours a day, so those tools are going to help me. I'm willing to pay a bit more since I'm going to get what I want to be working with all the time. If I were to put a number on it, I would say that OSX is 98% hassle-free whereas Linux (let's say Ubuntu) is 85% hassle-free. It goes down from there distro to distro, of course.


----------



## thiussat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
I'm experienced in all of the above OSs. I simply find OSX to be an easier OS to use. In my case, it's superior in that it makes desktop work fast. Linux doesn't really have anything that matches Spotlight (and its integrated dictionary and calculator features, for example, which I use all the time).

There is strigi which is a file indexer that can search not just file names but for phrases and words within almost any type of file and it can do it virtually instantly (like Spotlight). Of course, it isn't as "pretty" as Spotlight and doesn't have all the plugins, but it gets the job done (albeit it isn't all that mature yet, because it is a KDE 4 app). As for dictionaries, there are numerous widgets you can put on your desktop for both Gnome and KDE that has this function.

Quote:

Screenlets and Plasmoids are much less polished than Widgets. I don't know of anything in Linux that matches the speed and functionality of Quicksilver. I haven't run into any video editing software for Linux that's as good as iMovie (not that it's the best, of course).
There are various Linux Quicksilver clones out there to my understanding. It seems "Gnome Do" might be the most popular one (and Krunner for KDE). I'm not going to say they are as polished as Quicksilver, but they seem to do the job. And since Quicksilver is now open-source, I think we will see these Linux apps improve over time as more ideas are taken from Quicksilver. As for iMovie, I am not a video editing type of guy, but Kdenlive looks pretty nice.

EDIT: I had never used KRunner on KDE 4, but I found out it comes standard with it. All I had to do was hit Alt-F2 and up pops a dialog box. It's pretty nice actually and I am glad you mentioned Quicksilver.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong: I don't dislike Linux at all. If I weren't using OSX, I'd be using Linux (as my desktop OS). It's just that I find that OSX is superior for my purposes.
Same here. Nothing against OS X. I know it has cool apps (which has inspired many things on the Linux desktop) and is in the UNIX family (always a good thing), but I am just not convinced it is worth me shelling out the jack for a Mac when I have Linux. But to each his own.


----------



## enorbet2

Disclaimer - I have never owned a MacIntosh (except the awesome audio amplifiers) nor do I now and I am not at all likely to shell out $200 plus for a EFI-X usb dongle to build a "hackintosh". However I have used quite a few Macs and I know considerable about their systems and I have to say they are no ripoff. You do indeed get what you pay for partly because of extremely high standards of cutting edge hardware. For example back during the first big Mac vs Wintel War when x86 could only address 1 Megabyte of RAM, Macs could address 16 Megabytes directly, not through a narrow window, and that's just the beginning. Again I encourage all to read about what Macs offerred when M$ stole the show by pandering to old software with sooo much less. More recently when Win98 was a 32 bit shell running on an 8 bit and some 16 bit code, Macs were full 32 bit. Now they're real 64 bit. Until recently all hard drives were 5 year guarantee SCSI drives that were many times faster than IDEs or even most SATAs. By tightly controlling what hardware was available it minimized kernel size and number of loadable drivers making them both fast and stable as well as long lasting from high quality, high performance and minimized variables.

It is likely that once Linux and BSD offerred kernels for the PowerPC platform that someone at Apple tried it and you can bet Steve Jobs tried it out leading to the brilliant move to become BSD-based and allowing IDE drives, which had improved greatly, as well as Intel processors. IMHO the Motorola based PowerPC RISC CPUs crush Intel x86 in performance but Intel as a company cleaned Motorola's clock, so x86 won in the marketplace so Jobs was right to make the change even if it did compromise quality. After all most of the world wouldn't even notice, since Intel, and especially x86, dominates. Which kind of brings us back to EFI in Apple mobos since that is Intel's replacement for the aged BIOS which have yet to be embraced by the x86 world. See, cutting edge and snuggling up with the winner, Intel. Smart.

The point is don't be so quick to write off Macs as being unworthy of their price. Apple isn't stupid. You can buy MP3 players all day long that work reasonably well and are cheaper than an iPod but ig you ever try an iPod it's really hard to accept anything less, assuming you think multimedia is worth the price of admission. They are louder, sweeter, more easily organized and accessed (just try to find a single song among 1000 on anything else in just a couple strokes) and damn they are beautifully engineered. No wonder they won prestigious awards. It isn't far off the mark to assume similar engineering in their computers.

So to eschew the martial arts analogy in previous posts on this and embracing analogies to automobiles PCs are like Ford/Chevy/Dodge and Macs are more like Jaguars and Volvos. Personally I like to hot rod Fords and Chevys and that is quite limited for now with Macs and I'm not very excited about hot-rodding Jags or Volvos but they are pretty well worthwhile right off the showroom floor. If you use a computer for more than email, gaming and browsing pr0n (and soon gaming may be moot) it is worth your time to seriously check out Macs. I will probably never own one but I sure won't talk smack about them. Who cares about typical users when the product deserves mad props


----------



## PuffMaN

i got a box with linux only, and a box with dualboot..
been using linux for years now.. cant miss it!









dont try this on windows
















  
 YouTube - Ubuntu Hardy Heron - 3D effect dark screen  



 
oh man i love my linux


----------



## Caedis

I know I do not speak for everyone by a long shot, especially on a site like OCN, but, I do play all my games in Linux. And I don't mean super mario, I mean Fallout 3, Counter Strike: Source, Command and Conquer 3, Left 4 Dead, Supreme Commander, list goes on and on. Some took some playing with to get working but they all play at max fps (~60fps) with ultra high on every setting. I take flak from people who want proof constantly, and the others that always claim I'm misleading people by stating my experiences. (Not sure why) but I just check games before I buy them on the Wine AppDB and adjust the purchases I make accordingly. I don't feel like I'm missing out because a *few* games refuse to play in Linux. So I took the leap a few years ago and haven't looked back. Linux gets better every 6 months. 
I discuss how I play my games in my sig below "Linux Gaming Explained" I invite anyone to check it out in conjunction with this challenge. Especially if the reason you don't even want to try linux is because you can't play games in it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- Caedis
Posted from my Blackberry


----------



## legoman786

I have a question...

Will Ubuntu 9.04 flawlessly integrate with my current Vista x64 boot.ini?

It's been awhile since I've been in the game.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


I have a question...

Will Ubuntu 9.04 flawlessly integrate with my current Vista x64 boot.ini?

It's been awhile since I've been in the game.


Yes it will, but as I said in my other post about this, you won't get good performance because of the file system within a file system.


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Yes it will, but as I said in my other post about this, you won't get good performance because of the file system within a file system.


I guess I forgot to mention that my Ubuntu will be going onto another hard drive.

I *never* run 2 OS's on the same HDD.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


I guess I forgot to mention that my Ubuntu will be going onto another hard drive.

I *never* run 2 OS's on the same HDD.


Ah, that's a whole nother story then.

You'll have to either install a boot manager like grub.

Or edit your own boon.ini file.


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Ah, that's a whole nother story then.

You'll have to either install a boot manager like grub.

Or edit your own boon.ini file.


The 9.04 install was relatively painless. GRUB seems to be working just fine, however, I need to edit it so that Ubuntu is my #2 choice and Vista is my #1 choice in the list.


----------



## Tator Tot

This is a bit older guide, but check it out.

http://apcmag.com/how_to_dualboot_vi...lled_first.htm


----------



## legoman786

Ok... Now I'm worried.

I installed the fglrx drivers and... well, now, the entire OS is a freakin slideshow :\\


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Ok... Now I'm worried.

I installed the fglrx drivers and... well, now, the entire OS is a freakin slideshow :\\


Do you know how to restore the OS?

What method did you use to install drivers?

Did you try the regular method on Ubuntu?

Have you taken a look at this guide?


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Do you know how to restore the OS?

What method did you use to install drivers?

Did you try the regular method on Ubuntu?

Have you taken a look at this guide?


It just said that these drivers are needed and I installed them. I did take a look afterwards and I have no clue what he means by "install ia32-libs if on a 64bit system."

Looks like I need to restore my install, eh? Linux is Latin to me, but once I get the hang of it.... I shouldn't have much problem afterwards.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


It just said that these drivers are needed and I installed them. I did take a look afterwards and I have no clue what he means by "install ia32-libs if on a 64bit system."

Looks like I need to restore my install, eh? Linux is Latin to me, but once I get the hang of it.... I shouldn't have much problem afterwards.


So you just installed the drivers from the pop up Ubuntu gave you?


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


So you just installed the drivers from the pop up Ubuntu gave you?


Yessir...

I can't believe I did that lol

From my previous Ubuntu experience (8.04 x64), installing drivers form the pop ups is bad.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Yessir...

I can't believe I did that lol

From my previous Ubuntu experience (8.04 x64), installing drivers form the pop ups is bad.










Its been a 50/50 with me.

I always try it, and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Use teh 64bit method in that guide. Its what I normally do.

I think its an isolated issue with Ubuntu 64bit. Because using the "normal" pop up way has never given me an issue when i was installing drivers on a 32bit machine.


----------



## legoman786

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tator Tot* 
Its been a 50/50 with me.

I always try it, and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Use teh 64bit method in that guide. Its what I normally do.

I think its an isolated issue with Ubuntu 64bit. Because using the "normal" pop up way has never given me an issue when i was installing drivers on a 32bit machine.

I guess it is...

Anyways, now Ubuntu is telling me it cannot run a *.run file.

I'm slowly, but surely, starting to rage.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *legoman786* 
I guess it is...

Anyways, now Ubuntu is telling me it cannot run a *.run file.

I'm slowly, but surely, starting to rage.

Hmm...maybe your install went bad?

How did you set it up?


----------



## legoman786

I set it up just like the guide said

http://www.overclock.net/linux-unix/...tallation.html


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *legoman786* 
I set it up just like the guide said

http://www.overclock.net/linux-unix/...tallation.html

Did you restore the OS after your previous bad driver install, or did you re-format then reinstall the OS?

It sounds like something got borked up in your OS install, did you hit advanced options and change anything?


----------



## legoman786

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tator Tot* 
Did you restore the OS after your previous bad driver install, or did you re-format then reinstall the OS?

It sounds like something got borked up in your OS install, did you hit advanced options and change anything?

I just went with the default settings all the way through the install.

Code:



Code:


[email protected]:~$ sudo sh ati*.run
[sudo] password for faaezk: 
sh: Can't open ati*.run

That's what my terminal says.


----------



## Tator Tot

Have you tried to do a wipe and install again?

Every time I install drivers (often because of GUI switching, and when I was using the 9.04 beta) that method ran smoothly.


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Have you tried to do a wipe and install again?

Every time I install drivers (often because of GUI switching, and when I was using the 9.04 beta) that method ran smoothly.


Yeah I'll try that.

Hopefully everything will go a lot more smooth this time around.


----------



## Tator Tot

Make sure when you install to go to the advanced options, and set up the install so it has ext4 file system. 
Much faster than ext3


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Make sure when you install to go to the advanced options, and set up the install so it has ext4 file system. 
Much faster than ext3


I was wondering how to do that. I couldn't find the format options anywhere in the install. I must be blind.


----------



## Tator Tot

You need to enable the advanced option.


----------



## legoman786

Yeah, I got it.









Thanks so much for your help thus far.


----------



## Tator Tot

I try. Linux is not always the easiest the first time around. More so if you are going all out, and using 64bit..


----------



## legoman786

Well, this is my second time... first time was with Ubuntu 8.04 x64, and I had less problems with it than I did with 9.04 so far :|


----------



## PowerTrip

Yep I tried to use 9.04 also but it was a pain in the ass to get the restricted ATI driver to work. 8.10 is much more ATI friendly.


----------



## KC_Flip

Little bump, plus I finally decided to take up this challenge myself. I've been wanting to try out linux anyway. Someone at work gave me an old dell for free because they said it was broken, turns out Windows was just corrupted and needed a fresh install. I figured I would take the opportunity and throw Ubuntu 9.04 on there and give it a shot.


----------



## pow3rtr1p

I was one of those who "tried" Linux for a couple days and quit. Now, I use Linux for everything other than games. On my Windows 7 HDD, I only have drivers, Steam, and games installed.

I may have to try Cedega, though. I couldn't get anything to run well in WINE. Bioshock was upside-down and mirrored, TF2 was terribly slow and I couldn't get the sound to work, and L4D was simply lagtastic. I'll install Cedega sometime this weekend and see if TF2 will function properly. For every day use, though, I'm loving Linux so far.

Apt-Get and Synaptic are amazing utilities that can really be useful, and easier than scouring the internet for the hard-to-find program. Of course, some of the Apt-Get paths are hard to guess, but they can often be found easily enough. Plus, there is just so much information about Linux on the internet that as long as you get the screen functional, and get a web browser to work, you're never completely out of luck.


----------



## BSw2fc

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dezixn*


Linux is awesome.

I just wish I could use it. No support for most games = a no go









I would put it on my parents' computers, but they can hardly make it through windows... Going to linux would be hell on them.


Why don't you try this for games on linux http://www.cedega.com/








and you have Games DB here http://www.cedega.com/gamesdb/

You can run a lot of games with this on linux.


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pow3rtr1p* 
I may have to try Cedega, though. I couldn't get anything to run well in WINE. Bioshock was upside-down and mirrored, TF2 was terribly slow and I couldn't get the sound to work, and L4D was simply lagtastic. I'll install Cedega sometime this weekend and see if TF2 will function properly. For every day use, though, I'm loving Linux so far.

If you want Crossover Pro and Games for Linux, I have it. I got it free from the "Lame Duck Challenge" in October or November. Just PM me with your email address.


----------



## thiussat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the hundred gunner* 
if you want crossover pro and games for linux, i have it. I got it free from the "lame duck challenge" in october or november. Just pm me with your email address.

kernel panic!


----------



## The Hundred Gunner

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thiussat* 
kernel panic!









What?


----------



## thiussat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Hundred Gunner* 
What?

Nevermind. I was attempting an inside joke, but I had the free Crossover confused with the free Linux Magazine where if you were able to unscramble the word "kernel panic", you got a free year subscription. I think the Crossover thing had something to do with gas prices. I grabbed my free copy of Crossover but have since formatted it from my drive. Oh well.


----------



## hereonyourown

I'm considering trying it out, not keen on it, but will be up for a challenge if someone were able to tell me how I would be able to get the XHTML/CSS export on the open source the GIMP like Fireworks do, all the plugins I've tried doesn't seem to work or it's in HTML table only


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *hereonyourown*


I'm considering trying it out, not keen on it, but will be up for a challenge if someone were able to tell me how I would be able to get the XHTML/CSS export on the open source the GIMP like Fireworks do, all the plugins I've tried doesn't seem to work or it's in HTML table only










I don't know how you expect image editing software to export XHTML/CSS, unless it's table splicing, in which case, it's a very substandard way of creating a website.


----------



## Acoma_Andy

Unfortunatly, my GRUB bootloader started giving me an "error 18" out of nowhere, so I had to remove the bootloader to get my system going again









I don't know if there is any way to get Ubuntu back to boot up, so I'll just leave it for now.


----------



## hereonyourown

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
I don't know how you expect image editing software to export XHTML/CSS, unless it's table splicing, in which case, it's a very substandard way of creating a website.

I have my own method, I create the layout via Fireworks CS4 then optimize/edit/product rest of the code in Dreamweaver CS4 and the GIMP does have the option of exporting to HTML/CSS but it's very buggy at the moment


----------



## anonymous.gamer

i have tried linux, and i loved it. always wanting work to finish so i can go home and just muck around in linux.

but the only thing that has stopped me from using it (sigh) is that i couldnt get some of my games to work on it, and since i mainly play games, there was no point dual booting into linux for 2mins to check a website.

wish it had better game support









also i am now running ati graphics cards and have read their drivers suck for linux


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *anonymous.gamer*


wish it had better game support










I wish games had better support for Linux









Quote:



Originally Posted by *anonymous.gamer*


also i am now running ati graphics cards and have read their drivers suck for linux


Actually, there has been massive improvement lately from their front.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Acoma_Andy*


Unfortunatly, my GRUB bootloader started giving me an "error 18" out of nowhere, so I had to remove the bootloader to get my system going again









I don't know if there is any way to get Ubuntu back to boot up, so I'll just leave it for now.


Greetz
Fortunately Linux is substantially easier to fix when having boot problems IMHO because it is so much easier to boot the system with an auxiliary drive whether floppy, usb, cd, or whatever. Both Grub and Lilo, but especially grub are easy to fix. I presently have the opposite and more difficult problem of repairing Windows boot because of the drive lettering convention but that won't help you other than mentioning it so you'll breathe at least a little sigh of relief that it wasn't the windows boot that's screwed.

However you probably have a deeper issue since "Error 18" most often refers to a BIOS or partitioning problem or both. This can also happen on an older mainboard (BIOS) where some sort of add-on hdd card, such as a SATA raid card with it's own bios, handles addressing hdd cylinders (ahhh yes, the old 1024 boundary ploy) but you didn;t state what you're using so I'll leave that alone for now.

Best option - start here :
http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/GRUB

and be glad you're beginning to learn Linux since Open Source makes deep level work so much easier.
Jimmy


----------



## sweffymo

I have used Linux, Windows, and Mac since I was a kid. I think that each has different uses. I use Linux if I want my computer to run really quickly and to look cool. I use Vista if I want to play games.

To anyone with a netbook I highly recommend the new Ubuntu Netbook Remix as a starting point.

I run Ubuntu now but in the past I have run Red Hat (in the '90s when I was a kid) Yellow Dog (on an old powerbook in the early 2000s) Gentoo (on the same powerbook up until it broke a couple of years ago).

I do not claim to be an objective user; my dad has a full rack in the basement with an e-mail server, a web server, a proxy server, and a small cluster on it. He is the biggest geek I know. He hacks Windows and Mac software to get it to run in Linux.

Quote:



also i am now running ati graphics cards and have read their drivers suck for linux


ATI has decided to actually support Linux lately. I have the most up to date drivers on both Windows and Linux. CCC works perfectly in both.


----------



## Aiden327

Personally, I Like all three.

Windows is great for games and writing Various forms of Digital music such as Trance (can't really be done easily on a mac). Its also good for a career in programing and game design and good to be used for average businesses.

Mac - Great of Art related Tasks, More secure than windows, Great for recording and general music but is not great for digital music because most softsynths don't run on mac well. Video also excels really well!

Linux - Good for everything but games. Some professional music software runs in WINE but setting up a audio sever can be annoying for beginners. Gimp and Inkscape are native to Linux and can top if not even out with Photoshop with experienced users. The 3d desktop is far more efficient than the above because Im running Compiz Fusion maxed out on a GeForce 2 with plenty of room for everything else.

My setup is my Main computer (sig rig) runs windows and my linux pc with A pentium II and Geforce 2 runs ubuntu with an amazeing 5 desktop borg cube were I can run Firefix, Email, Chat, Music, and still have a space open to leave the updater while I flip between the rest as Im playing a game and waiting for the sever to switch maps.


----------



## TheSandman

i have redhat 7.1 on an old laptop and ubuntu as a duel boot on this system. My biggest complaint is lack of driver support. To use the network i have to move my computer to the router because no good wifi drivers exist for the card. Also comes with the lack of a good game platform, I have used wine in the past and was not overly impressed with it. CSS and HL2 ran fine, but Farcry didnt run well at all nor did Call of Duty 2. As for custimzation yes it is customizeable but not to the PC illiterate, thats the reason linux hasnt seen widespread adoption is that to a novice Linux is like learning to fly the space shuttle without ever haven ridden a bike.


----------



## hajile

Bump.


----------



## legoman786

http://www.overclock.net/jokes-humor...nux-basic.html


----------



## Greensystemsgo

i use linux for almost everything on my desktop. the exceptions would be source. its just a tad to glitchy to play under wine or cedega at a cal level.

as for the laptop, its severely underpowered and dont have the resources to wine stuff smoothly such as bf1942, of tfclassic.

otherwise i <3 linux and have no problem switching over for almost everything. boot time is only like 15 seconds anyways. no big deal.


----------



## Greensystemsgo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TheSandman*


i have redhat 7.1 on an old laptop and ubuntu as a duel boot on this system. My biggest complaint is lack of driver support. To use the network i have to move my computer to the router because no good wifi drivers exist for the card. Also comes with the lack of a good game platform, I have used wine in the past and was not overly impressed with it. CSS and HL2 ran fine, but Farcry didnt run well at all nor did Call of Duty 2. As for custimzation yes it is customizeable but not to the PC illiterate, thats the reason linux hasnt seen widespread adoption is that to a novice Linux is like learning to fly the space shuttle without ever haven ridden a bike.


as for your network, use the xp/vista driver under ndiswrapper. if you need help with that feel free to pm me.


----------



## schlitzamen

Ubuntu is great till you find out that the proprietary ati drivers cause horizontal lines in your video playback but you get 3d. Then you learn that the radeon driver they give out provides perfect video playback but no 3d. I've read experimental stuff on xorg but it's way over my head. If I can't have perfect video playback with all the 3d not much point in using it. It would be like taking a step backwards.


----------



## Greensystemsgo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *schlitzamen*


Ubuntu is great till you find out that the proprietary ati drivers cause horizontal lines in your video playback but you get 3d. Then you learn that the radeon driver they give out provides perfect video playback but no 3d. I've read experimental stuff on xorg but it's way over my head. If I can't have perfect video playback with all the 3d not much point in using it. It would be like taking a step backwards.


oh ya, newest, old, and rare ati cards BLOW on ubuntu. nvidia actually makes drivers for linux so ya nvidia ftw yet again.

my ati in my laptop works great, but no second display, and i only use this laptop for websurfing, school, and as a media center. so myth tv with ati FAIL. oh ya myth doesnt even support my graphics haha


----------



## SgtSpike

I have had a terrible experience every time I go to try linux.

I first tried Knoppix, years back. Incompatible with my wireless adapter. Was running off the live CD, so fortunately no OS to be uninstalled/reinstalled afterward. Played a few of the built-in games, got bored with it, and never touched it again.

Few years later, I tried Ubuntu on my sig rig. Had numerous troubles trying to get it to work with a triple-boot setup (Vista and XP being the other two). Finally got it running, only to find out that Windows wouldn't launch from the GRUB menu. A little more troubleshooting later, and nothing would launch. GRUB was pooched, and then nothing I could find online fixed it. Had to reinstall Vista and XP.

A few months down the road, I acquired an older Athlon 900mhz rig, and decided to try out linux again, seeing as it wouldn't be messing with my MBR on any important computers. Installed without a problem, internet worked, but there were tons of weird GUI issues. Such as the "start" menu background staying up and on top of the icons on the desktop, the mouse cursor going behind dialog boxes so I couldn't click on them, and random GUI lockups to the point of unuseability and a required restart. Oh, and I couldn't get the CPU-Z linux counterpart to install properly, no matter what I did. And internet downloads never worked. They would always download 1/4-1/2 the way, then say they were finished, and when I went to open up the files, they would be corrupted. I thought about trying FireFox instead of the default browser, but couldn't get that installed because I couldn't download it. Ergghh...

Sorry, I'm still a Windows guy for now. Windows may have its random bugs and crashes, but at least they are fixable!


----------



## schlitzamen

Well to be fair on the horizontal lines, it used to happen in vista with every media player but MPC home media edition. I tried VLC the other day just to see if the lines were still there and they were not but I'm on win7 now and using newer ffdshow. I also put ubuntu on older machine with nvidia 6600gt using the fglrx driver 180 that is offers and it had the same lines in the same place as this machine with ATI. That I found puzzling since I was completely sold on ATI's drivers causing the horizontal lines especially since I got the same result on vista x64 as I was having on ubuntu after installing 9.7 catalyst. Switching displays with ATI 9.7 installed was a PITA. Remove that and use the radeon driver and boom it works like a dream. Even remembers what screen I am using when I reboot. Once they get 3d in open source driver for R6xx/R7xx ATI it will be perfect.


----------



## isaacm12

I love ubuntu only if i supported my graffics card enough for gaming and mosly all of my other drivers haha i think i tryed everything even had to get my 2wire usb dongle working lol any one willing to help im more then open to try again







even tho i have little to zero knowledge of it


----------



## OSDCrusher

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greensystemsgo* 
oh ya, newest, old, and rare ati cards BLOW on ubuntu. nvidia actually makes drivers for linux so ya nvidia ftw yet again.

my ati in my laptop works great, but no second display, and i only use this laptop for websurfing, school, and as a media center. so myth tv with ati FAIL. oh ya myth doesnt even support my graphics haha

Wow, you're ignorant. You've been claiming that ATi has absolutely NO drivers for linux for the past two weeks now. Here are the newest ATi drivers for Linux:
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownloa...6&lang=English


----------



## NITRO1250

I should probably respond to this. I did not DO the challenge, but it isn't that I haven't spent a significant amount of time in Linux to begin with for both school and personal time. This is coming from someone who has like 3 linux distros running in VMWare and I've extensively used Red Hat Enterprise at school.

Windows will always be for me as it gets the job done. I do graphic and 3D design and Linux does not do that. Unfortunately, as much as it pains some, I would never dualboot Linux. When VMWare supports OpenGL like Virtual Box, then I may check out more of Linux's customizations as I have already used various apps quite extensively already.

Windows is a given for my profession, but I still applaud the post you have made. Someone else out there might give it a chance, but in my opinion, Linux is fun for tinkering, however tinkering is not what I do on a regular basis.

I will give you one thing tho, there is far more customization as far as interface goes for Linux. I've tried to customize my Windows interface extensively, but after all that work of putting in docks, widgets, in the end, I keep going back to the default Windows environment without all the addons.

Thanks for posting, but Linux will only be a once in a while tinkering thing for me.


----------



## thenailedone

... busy using Linux Mint currently and got to say it is working well... still not convinced it is the distro for me... something about it not sitting well with me... going to keep looking


----------



## auditt241

I decided randomly to install Ubuntu on my laptop today (now that I'm at school and i don't have to deal with WEP not working at home in Ubuntu... don't ask).

And WOW is it great. For some reason, I took a little more time to set it up and understand it, and now Windows seems... archaic. I can't use any nix Distros as my main OS quite yet as my desktop is used for too many games, but I think that everyone should give Linux a solid try.

Thanks Latty, your post really convinced me, and proved to me how powerful and customizable Linux really is. Looking forward to learning it's ins and outs for a long time!


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *auditt241* 
I decided randomly to install Ubuntu on my laptop today (now that I'm at school and i don't have to deal with WEP not working at home in Ubuntu... don't ask).

And WOW is it great. For some reason, I took a little more time to set it up and understand it, and now Windows seems... archaic. I can't use any nix Distros as my main OS quite yet as my desktop is used for too many games, but I think that everyone should give Linux a solid try.

Thanks Latty, your post really convinced me, and proved to me how powerful and customizable Linux really is. Looking forward to learning it's ins and outs for a long time!

Glad you gained from it. Enjoy running Linux.


----------



## enorbet2

I can't believe some peeps are still complaining about hardware support in Linux when all it takes is a new module, a recompiled kernel w/ the existing module supported by checkbox, or simply installing a new kernel. Linux IS the kernel, so almost anybody's kernel will work with the only caveat on some systems being whether they employ/need an "initrd" (initial ramdrive loaded mini kernel with special needs like filesystem or weird drives support loaded early, and even that can be called up once you know how). Example: Slackware uses a kernel for intial install called "hugesmp.s" because damn near everything is included and turned on so that right from jump street everything works. They also make "sata.s" and "scsi.s" kernels and more for specialized systems.

The "hugesmp.s" kernel is important because there are boot floppies, boot thumbdrives, boot cd's and boot dvd's that will allow a user to boot any linux system. For example the Slackware install CD or DVD initially boots extremely quickly to a command prompt where it tells us that we can mount whatever kernel we want on whatever partition we want as "root" and even gives you an example of a proper command where you simply substitute your desired partition. It is unlikely that you'll need an initrd (though you can call one if you know the name and where the "/boot" directory is located that houses it) since "hugesmp.s" supports basically everything.

So, say you have a borked grub for a Ubuntu install on your first ide hard drive, 2nd primary partition. All you do is boot the CD or DVD and enter "hugesmp.s root=/dev/hdc2 rdinit= ro" and you will soon be back in your Ubuntu system, where you can rerun grub, substitute lilo, whatever you want to get going again. There is no need to reinstall all the time. Plus, in the process you may find what module you need to get some cranky bit of hardware recognized.

Two useful commands are "dmesg |more" to see what driver goes with what hardware, or what errors may occur, and "lsmod |more" to see what modules are loaded.

If you want to see cranky or non-existant driver support, try loading Windows 7 on an older system. By older I mean it's a PITA to get even a decent PCI sound card to work, and impossible for many offbrands. If your video card isn't DirectX 9, you're stuck with Standard VGA. The release candidates are admittedly faster than Vista and even XP in some cases but that may well be because of reduced kernel size due to diminished hardware support and Windows kernels are not interchangeable, recompilable, or readily replaceable. So either they will keep locking out older hardware to stay snappier or they will add support and lose speed and there ain't nothin' you can do about it but stay dependent.... or toss 'em and get started learning Linux.

It just keeps getting better cuz it's made by users who love computers for users who love computers, not by arrogant, greedy jerks who consider you a moron.

Anyway, my twapence
Jimmy

PS Hey Mista Ballmer... I sent this from Firefox 3.5 running in OS/2 4.5 Warp Server for eBusiness w/ an X11 Linux desktop. It's CRAZY fast!


----------



## jXsun

I've tried Linux before, but it's missed some essential things I use besides games. There is no AutoCAD or Inventor compatibility for Linux without using WINE. Aside from that, it's quite simple to use, fast and very customizable.


----------



## enorbet2

What? None of these worthwhile?

http://www.linux.org/apps/all/Graphics/CAD/CAM.html

also Games?

There are entire websites devoted to linux gaming and lists of modern games that do work and at what level and they ain't exactly playing Pong. Beyond that and considering the mess of DRM and Malware, why not either buy a game console or use windows for games that won't run satisfactorily in Linux (w/ networking disabled to avoid all those ridiculous infections of course), and Linux for all the heavy lifting?

You might say such-and-such a set of programs keeps my Windows running fast and smooth, but doesn't that imply it is broken by default if you REQUIRE fixit programs (or annual reinstalls) to keep it running in a reasonable fashion, programs that cost you $$$$ too. As for security, there is basically none in windows since it asks you to shoulder the blame by "Cancel" or "Allow". That's not security. That's dodgeball.

Just how far are you willing to go? How much will you keep on paying to have a viable system? You are Ballmer and the Boys' personal cash cow if you keep coming to the trough.

At the very least it is worth a little time to learn Linux so you know you can break the habit once you get sick and tired one time too many.
Just sayin'
Jimmy


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


What? None of these worthwhile?

http://www.linux.org/apps/all/Graphics/CAD/CAM.html

also Games?

There are entire websites devoted to linux gaming and lists of modern games that do work and at what level and they ain't exactly playing Pong. Beyond that and considering the mess of DRM and Malware, why not either buy a game console or use windows for games that won't run satisfactorily in Linux (w/ networking disabled to avoid all those ridiculous infections of course), and Linux for all the heavy lifting?

You might say such-and-such a set of programs keeps my Windows running fast and smooth, but doesn't that imply it is broken by default if you REQUIRE fixit programs (or annual reinstalls) to keep it running in a reasonable fashion, programs that cost you $$$$ too. As for security, there is basically none in windows since it asks you to shoulder the blame by "Cancel" or "Allow". That's not security. That's dodgeball.

Just how far are you willing to go? How much will you keep on paying to have a viable system? You are Ballmer and the Boys' personal cash cow if you keep coming to the trough.

At the very least it is worth a little time to learn Linux so you know you can break the habit once you get sick and tired one time too many.
Just sayin'
Jimmy


As much as I think Linux and OSS are great, proprietry CAD/CAM software might still be able to do things OSS software can't, just as with photoshop.


----------



## Lord Xeb

I did cold turkey to linux about 3 years ago and it is still my favorite OS. Though I am in windows more (because I game a lot and [email protected]) I still run linux everywhere else. On my mac, I run linux in a triple boot and I use it instead of windows and OSX.

Great challenge BTW. Little buggers who do not do the challenge need to grow a pair of baby holders and actually TRY linux, not bash it.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lord Xeb* 
I did cold turkey to linux about 3 years ago and it is still my favorite OS. Though I am in windows more (because I game a lot and [email protected]) I still run linux everywhere else. On my mac, I run linux in a triple boot and I use it instead of windows and OSX.

Great challenge BTW. Little buggers who do not do the challenge need to grow a pair of baby holders and actually TRY linux, not bash it.

Just to say, you can fold under Linux, in fact, most agree the Linux clients get you more points.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Just to say, you can fold under Linux, in fact, most agree the Linux clients get you more points.

They do not have a GPU Client though do they?

Just the SMP client


----------



## enorbet2

Sorry to write to this thread just to reinforce the validity of The Challenge by bashing MicroSoft (doesn't that translate to tiny and limp?) ...wait a minute... I'm not sorry a bit! Check this out if you haven't read how M$ slipped code into their own stuff AS WELL AS competing browsers like FireFox and Chrome **WITHOUT** users consent or even knowledge, that opens the browser to malware so bad it can own you. Oh yeah! You get your money's worth with M$... that is if you happen to be a large corporation or a black hat hacker.

Check it out

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=4614&tag=nl.e539

Jimmy


----------



## MDUK

Linux is really great, its incredible how much can be done and how solid it is. However, my issue with it is that it takes so much longer to do everything. Everything's a challenge. For example, getting DVD playback to work every time I do a fresh install of Ubuntu takes 10-20 minutes depending on how long it takes me to find a working terminal command. I know this is a one off for each install but other things seem to longer as well. For some users (like my girlfriend or mum for example) they would never figure out how to watch a DVD. I wouldn't recommend the OS to someone who isn't technically minded.


----------



## JakeM

How can anyone.. hate linux? Its so perfectly awesome..


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
Yeah I suppose most girlfriends and mums don't like stick shift cars either (except the really cool ones), they just like to ride in 'em. I prefer driving cars in which I know every nut and bolt. I can trust a car like that not to leave me in the hands of some grinning mechanic who smells blood.

Linux was initially built by hackers for hackers and I'm using "hacker" in the broader sense of people who make things work for themselves because they've learned by doing for themselves. There is no doubt that the push is on to make Linux more user friendly instead of admin friendly and has been for some time which is why Ubuntu is getting all the kudos while I don't like it because it's like some kind of fussy servant constantly underfoot. I'd rather just get it myself.

OTOH once a linux system is setup, it is my opinion that even airhead girlfriends and stodgy mums prefer Linux since it doesn't constantly ask if you want to "allow" or "deny" every little thing and suffer the draggy consequences for making a wrong choice. I have had friends sit down at my Slackware system and never realize they weren't in "some kind of windows" because "everything was just right there, and it worked"....including watching DVD's

BTW since Linux was made for hackers and since Linus won't cave into pressure to castrate Linux with Draconian DRM measures, some people realize that it is possible to download xine-libs and such from countries other than their own to defeat location aware "protection" and copy protection and other cool little moves like that, impossible in Windows, or at the very least impossible w/o paying for someone's equally proprietary software.

Just as the US Health industry needs to keep people sick and/or dependent (like Chris Rock says "They haven't cured ****e since Polio and their still pissed off about that because they want people to learn to live with a condition, on their daily meds, not cure it" Windows isn't about to cure it's major problems because entire industries have sprung up and flourished because of them. Even Microsoft got on the bandwagon with "Defender" and especially "Windows OneCare" because they'd prefer you keep spending on a monthly basis to keep something running they own but you just get to lease.

You just need to choose whether you wish to be a driver or a paying (and paying and paying) passenger. It comes at a cost, but the cost is only time and brainpower.

L8z
Jimmy


----------



## X-Ravin

I love linux for high performance parallel computing and programming. It's a great environment for that. But I'm still a fan of windows due to the compatibility and look. I know that Linux is fully customizable, but windows has always felt cleaner to me. I'm not a hater or a fanboy, I tri-boot my acer laptop with Vista, Kubuntu, and OSX. I use Vista for everyday things, and OSX for HPC development. I don't use Kubuntu because it won't work with Purdue's Wifi without annoying hacks. Once that gets cleared up I will dump OSX because I can't stand the rest of the OS, it's flashy and has lots of shortcuts, but I don't have time to memorize lots of shortcuts, I can barely remember all of my nix commands







I'd recommend that everyone gives each OS a try if possible, everyone computes differently after all!


----------



## MDUK

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Greetz
Yeah I suppose most girlfriends and mums don't like stick shift cars either (except the really cool ones), they just like to ride in 'em. I prefer driving cars in which I know every nut and bolt. I can trust a car like that not to leave me in the hands of some grinning mechanic who smells blood.

Linux was initially built by hackers for hackers and I'm using "hacker" in the broader sense of people who make things work for themselves because they've learned by doing for themselves. There is no doubt that the push is on to make Linux more user friendly instead of admin friendly and has been for some time which is why Ubuntu is getting all the kudos while I don't like it because it's like some kind of fussy servant constantly underfoot. I'd rather just get it myself.

OTOH once a linux system is setup, it is my opinion that even airhead girlfriends and stodgy mums prefer Linux since it doesn't constantly ask if you want to "allow" or "deny" every little thing and suffer the draggy consequences for making a wrong choice. I have had friends sit down at my Slackware system and never realize they weren't in "some kind of windows" because "everything was just right there, and it worked"....including watching DVD's

BTW since Linux was made for hackers and since Linus won't cave into pressure to castrate Linux with Draconian DRM measures, some people realize that it is possible to download xine-libs and such from countries other than their own to defeat location aware "protection" and copy protection and other cool little moves like that, impossible in Windows, or at the very least impossible w/o paying for someone's equally proprietary software.

Just as the US Health industry needs to keep people sick and/or dependent (like Chris Rock says "They haven't cured ****e since Polio and their still pissed off about that because they want people to learn to live with a condition, on their daily meds, not cure it" Windows isn't about to cure it's major problems because entire industries have sprung up and flourished because of them. Even Microsoft got on the bandwagon with "Defender" and especially "Windows OneCare" because they'd prefer you keep spending on a monthly basis to keep something running they own but you just get to lease.

You just need to choose whether you wish to be a driver or a paying (and paying and paying) passenger. It comes at a cost, but the cost is only time and brainpower.

L8z
Jimmy


Don't get me wrong I completely agree with everything you have said there, I'm just saying that linux still has a way to go in terms of user-friendliness if it wants to appeal as a mainstream OS. And by that I mean usable to the majority of PC owners who don't really understand anything about computers other than how to word process, open their e-mail etc. Once linux is easily usable to these sorts of people then Microsoft is doomed. But then perhaps that would ruin linux: I'm sure its possible to develop linux malware, jerks would just do this instead.

I currently run windows but I'll be putting Ubuntu on my laptop next week.


----------



## enorbet2

Greets
The very point of Latty's challenge is to show that it isn't so much that Linux needs to become more user friendly, it's that people need to get to know it to become friendly, since so much of that has to do with what seems familiar. It has been known generally for a very long time that Apple is far more about user-friendly than anyone and though their numbers are growing now, it hasn;t been Number One for a very long time and the present growth is not in the least commensurate with the real gap in user friendliness.

Someone brand new to computers (are any left?) booting first to OSX will look around and ask "So what can I do now?" and slowly discover how to view and edit photos, watch DVDs (which just run upon insert since Apple has been auto-sensing since before Windows 3) etc. and be happy to discover what works and it is very accommodating so the process is easy.

OTOH A 5 year windows veteran (the larger part of the population by far) booting into the most user friendly OS out there will be asking "Where's Explorer? Where's Control Panel? or Where's whatever you've become used to depending on to navigate Windows. For me, coming from DOS originally (and believe me FreeDos is still happening for some more than playing old games), file manager's are incredibly important and can be a deal breaker if I can't look around and manipulate files the way I'm used to. The main reason I use KDE over Gnome, even though ti is essentially the same OS) is Konqueror vs/ Nautilus. So is it the OpSys or the Window Manager that people find "friendly"? I contend it is familiarity.

Once boasting 30 million paid subscribers, AOL, though now so out of date that though proprietary is now free, still has 10 million users... addicts who just can't break the habit even though it chokes every PC it touches, just because it's "user-friendly" or more accurately, familiar. I seriously doubt AOL enjoys many new users. It's just people who can't or won't make the change until they have no alternative. Does anyone doubt it will one day be dropped altogether? Will it be at 5 Million users or 1 Million is the only question.

I know "soothsayers" have been forecasting what was once called "push technology" now called "Cloud Computing" for a very long time but one thing has changed that is making that imminent, IMHO, and that is cell phones and netbooks. If there is any doubt then just look at Google's stock growth curve and the way in which their Office apps work and how Chrome OS is designed and you will be convinced, once you realize how many more people have cell phones than PCs, that limited (read "cheaper") hardware with net access, net based apps (all funded by monthly plans) is the coming thing whether you call it "Push" or "Cloud".

Factor in that Steve Jobs wants out of the ordinary PC business and that some 80+% of cell phones and net appliances run some variation of Linux, and you will see Windows' days are truly numbered. Sure there will be hangers on just like with AOL but all innovation will slow to a stop and soon. It is already happening as can be seen in Windows 7 because it, while admittedly better than Vista, looks less like traditional Windows and more like Linux, yet has painted itself into a corner vis a vis Cloud Computing. It can't go there. It is anathema to both the business model and the software roots to which Windows belongs and from which cannot be altogether set free and still be windows.

Also consider that despite the fact that many netbook owners have eschewed cheaper, faster, more trouble-free Linux for slower, more expensive, higher maintenance (but familiar) XP, this phenomenon is more like the AOL hangers on. Far more numbers of the up and coming user market install Linux on Tivo, routers, PsX game consoles and even XBox, because Open Source and embedded are winning over expensive and clunky proprietary.

Can you imagine Vista running on your cell phone, in a flight control tower, or on an ATM? Unless you don't mind being a fossil in 5 years, you'd better learn some Linux soon. ... that is unless you'd prefer to just accept whatever "the Gods" hand out as "new and improved".


----------



## MDUK

You talk a lot of sense. My point still stands though. The difference between OSs like OSX / mobile forms of linux ie Android, Chrome OS; and what is collectively known as linux ie Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE etc is that the former do not require the use of code to perform everyday tasks *from a fresh install*. From a user perspective, you just click an icon, and it does what you want it to. Most people aren't going to want to have to configure their OS using the terminal. A lot of people when looking at anything resembling code will just close their mind to it - I know I do it with maths unless forced otherwise. What I am saying is that distros such as Ubuntu which are aiming to bring linux to a greater market should focus on making things as easy a possible for the greatest number of people possible. Its all well and good saying that to someone who has never used a computer that they would pick things up easily, but most people *have* used a windows-based computer and this will be ingrained into society for a long time, even with increased market shares from Apple and Linux. By all means, the terminal should remain for advanced users to configure things as they would like, but out of the box users should be able to do everything without difficulty, and by that I mean without use of the terminal. In Chrome OS, I believe Google will have essentially what I am talking about, although it is obviously geared towards netbooks rather than desktops.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Can you imagine Vista running on your cell phone, in a flight control tower, or on an ATM?


Incidentally, many years ago there a Blockbuster machine outside a nearby supermarket for renting DVDs (or it may have been videos) without the need for a shop. I was trying to use it with a friend and it crashed, swallowing his card. After a while it rebooted with the Windows 98 logo









Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Unless you don't mind being a fossil in 5 years, you'd better learn some Linux soon. ... that is unless you'd prefer to just accept whatever "the Gods" hand out as "new and improved".


I have been using Linux for about 4 years.


----------



## thornygravy

I love linux, but I love games more. Considering Windows 7 is in my hands, forget it. They both rock, but windows is just a bit more convenient.


----------



## Cyberbot

I wanted to try it, but the stupid thing removed Vista while partioning the HDD. Oh well it was most likely my fault, but it's easy to blame something else.


----------



## Holyaxe

All of you who say that Linux doesn't run many games:

The more people use it, the more games will be released for it. So if enough people start using Linux, there will be lots of Linux games in a few years.


----------



## jaxjoe

Yes, running LINUX is a lot like real life. You must perform very much MORE work than you ever feared doing ... to accomplish very much LESS than you ever hoped for.

And your boss really does always shout RTFM !


----------



## scottb75

I tried Ubuntu for about 6 months and I liked it well enough for what it was. I found it good for some things and not so good for other things. Obviously the security made it great for web browsing and downloading things without much worry, it was nice for downloading torrents. Some of the problems I had with Ubuntu related to the use of proprietary software, most noticeably certain video formats like WMVs were a real pain to get to play nice with Ubuntu.

My verdict: Linux is nice but it's not for everybody, if you are going from Windows with no knowledge of Linux you have to have a lot of patience because there is definatly a big learning curve. When trying to figure out how to do things Google quickly becomes your friend.


----------



## mattliston

so here is a question for you linux gurus

sig rig is the system in question.

torrents, movies, music, lightweight gaming online, win 95-xp games, all fairly lightweight

LOTS of forum and siocial sites visited daily.

My question is, what distributions of linux should I focus my research on? Im looking for security, performance, and the ability to be somewhat easy to get hooked on, while remaining just hard enough to not only be a challeneg, but keep my roommates off my computer









lol, help a brother out. If you just PM me a distro name, thats fine, I dont mind looking it up to see if its right for me. Im not asking to be spoonfed a detailed answer, just a few suggestions for my "journey" away form windows on my spare 10gb drive


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


so here is a question for you linux gurus

sig rig is the system in question.

torrents, movies, music, lightweight gaming online, win 95-xp games, all fairly lightweight

LOTS of forum and siocial sites visited daily.

My question is, what distributions of linux should I focus my research on? Im looking for security, performance, and the ability to be somewhat easy to get hooked on, while remaining just hard enough to not only be a challeneg, but keep my roommates off my computer









lol, help a brother out. If you just PM me a distro name, thats fine, I dont mind looking it up to see if its right for me. Im not asking to be spoonfed a detailed answer, just a few suggestions for my "journey" away form windows on my spare 10gb drive










I run Arch Linux. It's not easy to set up, but there are good guides on their wiki and stuff, so it should be easy enough to do. Once you are done, you can have a really powerful, fast system that is tailored to your every need.


----------



## enorbet2

Hiya - Gonna post inline.....

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


so here is a question for you linux gurus










I don't consider myself a guru but I did begin with Linux around 1995, began using it as my primary OpSys 4 years later in 1999; I don't like automatics and thus prefer Slackware after trying some dozen distros yet I stay in touch with what's going on in the "windows wannabes" mostly based in Debian, so maybe I have something for you.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


sig rig is the system in question.p


Since there seem to no longer be any hardware specific issues (ie Audigy now well supported) I prefer to deal with your hardware later.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


torrents, movies, music, lightweight gaming online, win 95-xp games, all fairly lightweightp


 Torrents are safer in Linux. Once you get the proper codecs movies are a breeze with Xine and especially MPlayer. Music is a major focus in Linux which is why for example Audacity, which started out on Linux, is now so widely used. There are numerous excellent players such as Amarok which behaves for music like Picassa does for photos, but I prefer Aqualung because it easily employs professional plugins
like "Tube Warmth" and 32 band EQs. Online gaming is a breeze (superior TCP/IP stack in Linux) W95 games are fairly easy but XP games can be difficult since some emulator like WINE or Cedega is usually required, even though some games still come out with native Linux support. However Unreal Tournament's latest afaik has yet to deliver their latest and greatest in native form - odd, since so many games, even if designed to be Windows games, are nevertheless wrtitten in Linux. Oh Well.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


LOTS of forum and siocial sites visited daily.p


 Should be minimal perspiration









Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


My question is, what distributions of linux should I focus my research on? Im looking for security, performance, and the ability to be somewhat easy to get hooked on, while remaining just hard enough to not only be a challeneg, but keep my roommates off my computer









lol, help a brother out. If you just PM me a distro name, thats fine, I dont mind looking it up to see if its right for me. Im not asking to be spoonfed a detailed answer, just a few suggestions for my "journey" away form windows on my spare 10gb drive










 This question is akin to asking what sort of car should you buy, a dune buggy or a AA Fuel Dragster, since you just got your license and are feeling perky.

All of what you define as your parameters is possible in just about any distro but I suspect as in the analogy you don;t know enough about what is possible and/or required to ask the right questions to get a qualified answer. So, IMHO your best bet by far is to go here

http://www.livecdlist.com/

and avail yourself of something Windows has only recently been able to do (and in a very very limited form a la Bart PE and Hiren's Boot CD) which is boot up a CD with a real OPSys on board and see for yourself how things look and work. Naturally, I prefer Slax, and it is probably a decent idea that you try it but you should also try a debian based distro and probably 2 different kinds, one with a Gnome interface (a bit alien at first) and one with KDE (more windowsy looking). Since there is so much hoopla, so many forums and faqs, for the last 2 I'd recommend Ubuntu and Kubuntu. All three can download drivers and apps on-the-fly especially if you have a decent amount of ram and/or if you use something like PQMagic (a linux version called GParted comes on the Puppy Linux LiveCD) to create a Linux swap partition. Don't go overboard on this a la windows as Linux has much better memory management so a couple hundred megabytes is fine and 500MB is way overkill. Incidentally, as remarkably fast as these LiveCD's can be, most load unaccellerated video drivers (though Puppy and a few let you test out others) so what you end up actually installing will be much, much faster especially since you have an nVidia card.

After you've checked out a few, check back here and let peeps know what you like and what you don't like. Then it should be more productive trying to single out just one.

Best Wishes
Jimmy


----------



## mattliston

Thanks for the responses guys


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


Thanks for the responses guys


No problem, most of the Linux community will help wherever they can, it's a good community with a lot of distributed knowledge.


----------



## p1tbull

I love LINUX 
I've been using it as a second OS

IT HAS HELPED ME IN MANY SCENARIOS

my XP crashed (yes it crashes a lot)
I was left with no option as the CD was missing
my gal was waitin for our chat on the net 
what do I do now? 
put in the LIVE LINUX 
and viola saved me atleast an hour of installation of Xp and drivers 
and my gal was happy so was I

this is just one of the scenarios

suppose U have a presentation to do and OS crashes
do U waste an hour of the clients or bring in another round of coffee and meanwhile LIVE BOOT the LINUX

besides its not just meant for a pro
my bluetooth device gives 3 times data exchange speed than in XP 
that too no drivers required


----------



## p1tbull

the only setback is the softwares arent readily available for home use 
like solidworks, catia, pro e

what abt the gaming?


----------



## error10

Fedora 12 + RPM Fusion. Put your eyes back in your head after the movie player tells you it needs to go find a codec, and then actually does it! Encrypt your hard drive, and keep out not only your roommate but the NSA too.

Here's some more info.


----------



## mattliston

how fast does fedora core run in comparison to say ubuntu, or slackware?

is it super tweakable for performance on a mediocre single core like my sig rig?


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


how fast does fedora core run in comparison to say ubuntu, or slackware?

is it super tweakable for performance on a mediocre single core like my sig rig?


It's plenty fast enough. With 12 they switched to i686 build instead of i586 for 32-bit, but you'll be running 64-bit anyway so it doesn't matter.

See also the links in my sig.


----------



## mattliston

Id like to stick to 32 bit as there is far more hardware support, unless my onboard NIC, chipset (RS480) and soudn card are supported off the bat in 64 bit

seems on my computer, win xp pro 64bit simply shutdown and booted way faster. normal activities seemed almost the same, except slightly faster memory intensive applications


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mattliston* 
Id like to stick to 32 bit as there is far more hardware support, unless my onboard NIC, chipset (RS480) and soudn card are supported off the bat in 64 bit

seems on my computer, win xp pro 64bit simply shutdown and booted way faster. normal activities seemed almost the same, except slightly faster memory intensive applications

You're still thinking Windows. In Linux, EVERY piece of hardware that works on 32-bit also works on 64-bit. Otherwise Linux won't let the driver into his kernel. So 64-bit Linux is not only perfectly safe, but better for you


----------



## mattliston

that is kickass!! so linux hardware support is actually coded for the hardware, and not around the software (like 32/64 bit)? that is awesome

this is why I ask questions about something I wanna try instead of reading 2 threads and saying F that









thanks again guys


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


that is kickass!! so linux hardware support is actually coded for the hardware, and not around the software (like 32/64 bit)? that is awesome


If you're doing low-level programming then you have to be aware of the difference between 32-bit and 64-bit systems. But Linux has had a 64-bit kernel since 1998 or so, long LONG before Microsoft, and it's had a lot more time to work out the issues. So today everything works.


----------



## mattliston

awesome!


----------



## CrashOverride90

Linus is definitely awesome. But there is this one thing that I can't do with it...*GAMING*!

So for my custom super OC'ed gaming rig I like to stick with windows (but I do keep linux dual boot - It has come in handy secondary OS when windows decides to be mad at me).

However I do use linux (ubuntu - it has better hardware support) on my Netbook







since netbooks aren't meant for gaming!!!! Win-Win for Linux


----------



## enorbet2

Did you guys see that Steve "Monkey Boy" Ballmer has publicly declared Apple is no competition but Linux is?!? Muahahahah


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Did you guys see that Steve "Monkey Boy" Ballmer has publicly declared Apple is no competition but Linux is?!? Muahahahah










I want to see this.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz

1st for reference, Ballmer 2001 "Linux is a cancer"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06...x_is_a_cancer/

Now, 2009-2010.....

http://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ba...tor_than_Apple

or

http://tinyurl.com/dhc9kl

Enjoy
Jimmy


----------



## error10

Both of those last two links go to the same article. ???

Anyway, nice to see Microsoft thinks Linux is bigger than Apple on the desktop.


----------



## .:[Esai]:.

First of all Why i'm NOT going to use Unix based OS is that i have fully learned Windows...i CAN make operations on windows blindfolded...
Second...DirectX...(No games) My computer is built to play games...
Third...No drivers...Like D-Link...Cant get to the freaking internet...
Had multiOS system few years back...
I really like Unix based OS-es but i wouldn't use it...


----------



## TFB

Quote:



Originally Posted by *.:[Esai]:.*


First of all Why i'm NOT going to use Unix based OS is that i have fully learned Windows...i CAN make operations on windows blindfolded...
Second...DirectX...(No games) My computer is built to play games...
Third...No drivers...Like D-Link...Cant get to the freaking internet...
Had multiOS system few years back...
I really like Unix based OS-es but i wouldn't use it...


I used Windows for about 20 years. 3.1, 95, 98, (no ME or 2000







), XP, Vista and Win 7 RC. I'm fairly comfortable in Windows. I now use linux full time. I had to relearn a lot of stuff but it didn't take me long once I learned the linux approach to problem solving.

Direct X. You have a point. Linux doesn't do Direct X. This is where I disagree though. You won't use Linux because of Direct X, so you use Windows. Windows is responsible for Direct X being the main stream. See what I'm getting at here? You've played directly into their hands and have given game devs another reason not to push OpenGL. FIGHT THE POWER!

Linux has no drivers? Weird. Now, I have to admit that most of the stuff I buy now I check for good play with linux, but a lot of my gear from before the switch plays just as nicely with linux as it did with Windows.


----------



## .:[Esai]:.

Why the **** should i relearn it???

Mostly DX11: tessellation, multi-threading, GPGPU support

Yes... it dosen't have drivers for my sound card and my net card...


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *.:[Esai]:.*


Why the **** should i relearn it???

Mostly DX11: tessellation, multi-threading, GPGPU support

Yes... it dosen't have drivers for my sound card and my net card...


There are plenty of reasons, read: this thread.


----------



## hajile

Quote:



Originally Posted by *.:[Esai]:.*


Why the **** should i relearn it???

Mostly DX11: tessellation, multi-threading, GPGPU support

Yes... it dosen't have drivers for my sound card and my net card...


OpenGL was able to implement tesselation three or four years ago. OpenCL is looking to be the better than dx11 for GPGPU. OpenGL is naturally parallel and AMD is working to make OpenCL

ubuntuforums There is a problem listed with line-in on an alc662 (the soundcard in your sig), the problem was apparently resolved in an update some time in march/april *2008*.

Here is the realtec website page where you can download their Linux driver for the network card in your sig.

Linux is improving at an astounding rate. Like Lattyware's challenge states, just because you had problems once upon a time doesn't mean you still will.

As for learning, If you don't want to learn about tech, why do you visit tech sites? It is harder to learn to overclock well than it is try Linux. Also, If you already know it, how would you relearn it? If you don't know it, why not learn?


----------



## .:[Esai]:.

My net card: D-Link DWL-520+

u can fix it?
i will change my OS...


----------



## hajile

@.:[Esai]:.

Quote:



Hi there, welcome to ndiswrapper's wiki

Many vendors do not release specifications of the hardware or provide a Linux driver for their wireless network cards. This project implements Windows kernel API and NDIS (Network Driver Interface Specification) API within Linux kernel. A Windows driver for wireless network card is then linked to this implementation so that the driver runs natively, as though it is in Windows, without binary emulation.

With ndiswrapper, most miniPCI (builtin), PCI, PCMCIA (Cardbus only) or USB wireless network cards work in Linux with x86 or x86-64. Although ndiswrapper is intended for wireless network cards, other devices are known to work: e.g., ethernet cards, USB to serial port device, home phone network device etc.

This wiki aims to be a knowledge base for ndiswrapper. (ndiswrapper wiki)


ndiswrapper wiki claims to support the D-Link DWL-520+ (here)

Known working devices list


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *.:[Esai]:.*


My net card: D-Link DWL-520+

u can fix it?
i will change my OS...


Newer versions of this card switched from the Prism II chipset to the ADM8211 chipset and, of course, the manufacturer kept the same model number, in order to confuse everybody.

Nevertheless, the drivers for ADM8211 have been in mainline Linux since 2.6.24, about two years ago. Try a newer distribution.


----------



## .:[Esai]:.

Then i think i just have to change my OS...
Thanks!
hajile and error10 REP+


----------



## .:hybrid:.

I couldn't get permission to open folders in Ubunto, wth?







Opening a folder shouldn't be difficult. I've never had a good experiance with Linux, nor do I have any need for Linux. I grew up on windows, and I understand it, keep good care of it, and have no need to change.


----------



## tincanman

linux
one word: lifesaver
always have ubuntu installed on a second parrtition
I play ocassional games on ubuntu (penguin racer), or use it to do some hacking(mostly wireless)
the rest, i do on xp
but still, when windows craps up 100%, linux always got your back, it even gets into the most protect folders(system volume information, its where the restoration files are)


----------



## dkev

Here is my biggest gripe about Linux. The programs generally are not that great. Not all of them. But there always seems to be the apps I want that are not quite ready for prime time. But really a lot of them seem archaic. I'm not a Linux hater. I actually took the time and learned how to use Ubuntu. Got pretty good with it. There's a lot I love about it. But in the end, I ended up with Win 7. For me , like Linux, it just works. Linux still owns MS in the networking department.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dkev* 
Here is my biggest gripe about Linux. The programs generally are not that great. Not all of them. But there always seems to be the apps I want that are not quite ready for prime time. But really a lot of them seem archaic. I'm not a Linux hater. I actually took the time and learned how to use Ubuntu. Got pretty good with it. There's a lot I love about it. But in the end, I ended up with Win 7. For me , like Linux, it just works. Linux still owns MS in the networking department.









Some are and others aren't. You didn't mention specific programs so nobody can really say anything about your experience or offer suggestions.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dkev* 
Here is my biggest gripe about Linux. The programs generally are not that great. Not all of them. But there always seems to be the apps I want that are not quite ready for prime time. But really a lot of them seem archaic. I'm not a Linux hater. I actually took the time and learned how to use Ubuntu. Got pretty good with it. There's a lot I love about it. But in the end, I ended up with Win 7. For me , like Linux, it just works. Linux still owns MS in the networking department.









Really? I completely disagree. I find my Linux desktop to have far better software than the usual stuff you can find for windows, and it's free and easy to obtain.


----------



## _Marvin_

I have used Linux as a secondary OS for some time than I quit and went back to Vista/Win7, I do a lot of disk wiping, and reinstalling here, and Ubuntu somehow damaged my MBR with its Grub loader or something and I was not able to install any OS on it.

I was one system down for almost a moth until I finally managed to fix my MBR and swear that I will never risk installing Linux again.

It's sad but true, really loved the extra performance, and customizability that Ubuntu had to offer, but I just can't trust it enough.

I just want to know if this is a common problem, or was it just an anomaly?


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_Marvin_* 
I have used Linux as a secondary OS for some time than I quit and went back to Vista/Win7, I do a lot of disk wiping, and reinstalling here, and Ubuntu somehow damaged my MBR with its Grub loader or something and I was not able to install any OS on it.

I was one system down for almost a moth until I finally managed to fix my MBR and swear that I will never risk installing Linux again.

It's sad but true, really loved the extra performance, and customizability that Ubuntu had to offer, but I just can trust it enough.

I just want to know if this is a common problem, or was it just an anomaly?

... Damage your MBR? Really not how it works. The MBR is just an area of disk space, maybe your hard drive is dying or something, because that seriously isn't how it works. If something goes wrong with it, you just do a new install of grub (grub from a live CD or whatever) or FIXMBR from the windows rescue terminal, and it'll overwrite what is there. That's it.


----------



## _Marvin_

I fixed it with FIXMBR, so are you saying that linux was not the culprit ? My disk is fine, but at that time I could not install vista, win7 nor liunx onto it.


----------



## kga92

I would use ubuntu on my netbook 24/7 if the fan control script would work.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_Marvin_* 
I fixed it with FIXMBR, so are you saying that linux was not the culprit ? My disk is fine, but at that time I could not install vista, win7 nor liunx onto it.

Your typical Linux distribution goes out of its way to accommodate people who want to use more than one operating system on their computers. Windows does not; they make it extremely difficult to do so, and push off all the work onto you, the poor guy who's thinking of trying out something else.

When this sort of thing happens, it's precisely because Windows does not want to accommodate you that the situation arose. Obviously it's quite difficult to make everything perfect, especially since Windows wants to do crazy things like corrupt its own MBR. But there you have it.

To work around Windows and this particular design issue that it has, most people recommend installing Windows before Linux. Installing Linux before Windows just gives Windows more chances to screw up your system.

(It's also possible that you contracted a virus that got into your MBR, and replacing the MBR with FIXMBR got rid of it. And that's yet another Windows-caused issue...)


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_Marvin_* 
I fixed it with FIXMBR, so are you saying that linux was not the culprit ? My disk is fine, but at that time I could not install vista, win7 nor liunx onto it.

My point is that any installer just overwrites what is there. Grub can't protect it in any way, so if you tried to install another OS, then it should have just overwritten it. I can't see that what happened could have possibly been Grub's fault.

The thing is, FIXMBR does the exact same process windows does on an install, so I can't see how you couldn't install windows, but could do FIXMBR.

Maybe there was another problem behind the scenes.


----------



## mattliston

I just have an extra 10gb hd to play with. sure it might be a bit slower since its an older drive, but no worries of having to make extra configurations to work.

only sad thing is im limited in how far I can test due to a 10gig limitation


----------



## Holyaxe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mattliston* 
I just have an extra 10gb hd to play with. sure it might be a bit slower since its an older drive, but no worries of having to make extra configurations to work.

only sad thing is im limited in how far I can test due to a 10gig limitation

10GB is more than you need, you can always use your Windows disk/partition for your files (music, photos etc) and only install apps on the 10GB disk


----------



## _GTech

If I had to choose between Linux & Windows, the choice isn't even close, though I use both Linux & Windows, I prefer windows for more reasons than just gaming....

Why I dislike Linux:

1) Many Linux Programs & Distros are buggy, PERIOD.

2) You cannot use Wine for A LOT of programs.

3) You are restricted to what people create & what they are not legally allowed to create!

4) I have had stability issues with Linux & Overclocking, unlike windows...
(Yes even after much stress testing successfully in windows)

I have noticed that, Linux never really uses the RAM i have installed, why is that?

I suppose it's becuase the Kernel is SO EFFICIENT it doesn't need more RAM maybe?

Linux will not let you do more task at once, if you copy a large file from a drive to a drive it more or less freezes your computer.

I have had some SERIOUS hardware issues in linux that have cost me much $$$!!!

I still use Linux, but the cons are just far too many for me to love it...

For a Notebook or a low performing Laptop I think Linux is DA BOMB!

For a network Firewall which distributes internet access Linux is DA BOMB!

It has it's uses, but again, that doesn't mean It's all that and a bag of chips, but then again, neither is windows, lol! I love windows because more people make programs that are compatible with Windows OSes. What Linux TEAM can defeat Micro$oft's TEAM??? Show me one...


----------



## Core300

That's a nice article you wrote there lattyware.
I love Linux and have used it for a while. I'm back with Windows now though. I have a 60gb partition from when I set up this computer for Ubuntu. I was and still am planning on using it to dual boot Ubuntu. The thing is though, sometimes I just like to randomly start playing a game when I'm bored or whatever. It is a slight pain to reboot...


----------



## _GTech

I only use linux for a few minor things, mainly because it's more secure than windows, if you set it up correctly. Other than that, Linux (every distro included) is altogether a waste of many people's time and effort. It's great for booting up and fixing problems with viruses or problems you encounter from malware, you can fix it from a linux live cd or dual boot linux system very easy, other than that, you can use the partition editor in the live editions, GParted, which is just fabulous.

I use linux mainly because it's free.

Those are the main reasons why I even bother with what I feel is a poorly designed Desktop / Laptop OS.

Lazy Coders Can't Think of someone OTHER THAN THE CODE! If your programs aren't first user friendly WHO WILL USE THEM? If it's broke who will use it? If it crashes who will use it?

Too many times Linux has failed me, too many distros are a let down, and every update seems worse than the last!


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
If I had to choose between Linux & Windows, the choice isn't even close, though I use both Linux & Windows, I prefer windows for more reasons than just gaming....

Why I dislike Linux:

1) Many Linux Programs & Distros are buggy, PERIOD.

2) You cannot use Wine for A LOT of programs.

3) You are restricted to what people create & what they are not legally allowed to create!

4) I have had stability issues with Linux & Overclocking, unlike windows...
(Yes even after much stress testing successfully in windows)

I have noticed that, Linux never really uses the RAM i have installed, why is that?

I suppose it's becuase the Kernel is SO EFFICIENT it doesn't need more RAM maybe?

Linux will not let you do more task at once, if you copy a large file from a drive to a drive it more or less freezes your computer.

I have had some SERIOUS hardware issues in linux that have cost me much $$$!!!

I still use Linux, but the cons are just far too many for me to love it...

For a Notebook or a low performing Laptop I think Linux is DA BOMB!

For a network Firewall which distributes internet access Linux is DA BOMB!

It has it's uses, but again, that doesn't mean It's all that and a bag of chips, but then again, neither is windows, lol! I love windows because more people make programs that are compatible with Windows OSes. What Linux TEAM can defeat Micro$oft's TEAM??? Show me one...

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. Though it sounds like a lot of what you had problems with was due to your hardware, not limitations of Linux.

I also read through the rest of your complaints, and I found that they apply equally well, or more appropriately, to Windows. That's the platform which restricts what you can do with your computer, for instance. Windows is also buggy, PERIOD. I could go on, but you know exactly what I mean.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
It all really comes down to SERVICES, services are the brains of an OS, it does things so YOU don't have to, and well, I'd have to say windows 7 just BLOWS ANY LINUX out the water when it comes to that category, PERIOD!

????? What do you mean by services? If the same thing as everyone else means, Linux pwns Windows. So I have to surmise that you mean something else entirely.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
If I had to choose between Linux & Windows, the choice isn't even close, though I use both Linux & Windows, I prefer windows for more reasons than just gaming....

Why I dislike Linux:

1) Many Linux Programs & Distros are buggy, PERIOD.

There are many buggy bits of windows software. All the software I used is solid, and I use a wide range of software.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
2) You cannot use Wine for A LOT of programs.

Use native apps.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
3) You are restricted to what people create & what they are not legally allowed to create!

I don't even understand what you mean.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
4) I have had stability issues with Linux & Overclocking, unlike windows...
(Yes even after much stress testing successfully in windows)

Never a problem I have seen. It seems unlikely this was the cause.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
I have noticed that, Linux never really uses the RAM i have installed, why is that?

I suppose it's becuase the Kernel is SO EFFICIENT it doesn't need more RAM maybe?

Quite the opposite. People always used to moan that Linux used up too much RAM, as it always uses all availible RAM. This feature was introduced in Vista and now people understand it more. It's probably whatever monitor you were using was only showing application RAM usage.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
Linux will not let you do more task at once, if you copy a large file from a drive to a drive it more or less freezes your computer.

Complete rubbish, I do all sorts of stuff like that all of the time. Simply is not, and never has been, true. My only explanation is you were on a machine that was so useless that it took all it's CPU power to transfer files, or was using swap space heavily because it had no RAM.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_GTech* 
I have had some SERIOUS hardware issues in linux that have cost me much $$$!!!

I still use Linux, but the cons are just far too many for me to love it...

For a Notebook or a low performing Laptop I think Linux is DA BOMB!

For a network Firewall which distributes internet access Linux is DA BOMB!

It has it's uses, but again, that doesn't mean It's all that and a bag of chips, but then again, neither is windows, lol! I love windows because more people make programs that are compatible with Windows OSes. What Linux TEAM can defeat Micro$oft's TEAM??? Show me one...

FOSS software is often far better than proprietary software, see: xChat, Firefox, mplayer, the GIMP (yes, not quite as good as photoshop, but everything but, and it's significantly cheaper, for the average user, better than photoshop elements or whatever).


----------



## ahddm

I lived in command line and Arch Linux for a few months then I became unemployed and remembered gaming there were games and now I am on 7, but I love my archy system.

@_GTech Please go into details about specific problems I will give you alternatives or fixes. I do not know what you mean by legally even allowed to create.


----------



## trasixes

I've used Linux since before it had a real GUI, and my opinion remains the same - it has it's uses, particularly speaking on a professional level.

My personal desktop will always be strictly Windows, so long as the majority is running Windows. Why? Although there are alternatives for some of it, there are a great deal of software packages that are Win only, or the *nix alternatives are lacking.

It bears mentioning that "free" isn't always a good thing. I love free software, generally, but I can't yell at, or demand a timely bugfix from an author I didn't pay. Believe it or not, most developers that charge for their software will listen, and react, to the complaints of paying customers.

With all of the above said, I will always keep a linux box or two around. It has it's uses, and I will continue to keep an eye on development, as always.


----------



## GoTMaXPoWeR

Let me start by saying I think Linux is awesome. I tried Ubuntu 8.04 it and I really liked the fact that it was much less of a resource hog than Windows whilst still looking brilliant and being very customizable. I'm a big gamer though, and for that reason I prefer to stick to Windows. I have a very short attention span, and rebooting to switch between either OS every 30 minutes would get very annoying.

If I ever buy a laptop or secondary PC, my first choice OS would be Ubuntu for the sole reason that I'd use it for everything -but- games.

If Linux had the ability to run games, it'd be where Windows is now.


----------



## pyra

I do a lot of photo and sound editing using gimp and audacity, I'm also trying out my hand at 3D modelling using blender but my PC is primarily used for gaming so I need windows. I understand that all the programs I have mentioned were created for linux but they work on windows so why would I go to all the trouble dual booting with linux when I can do everything I need to do on windows?


----------



## .:hybrid:.

1) Linux isn't Windows.
3) I need my software!
4) I tried Linux a while ago and didn't find it interesting.

Those are my main issues, I'm a positively hooked on windows, and it suits me fine, why would I change?
Software, like sandboxie, photoshop and Cinema 4D, sometimes there are replacements, but GIMP does not replace photoshop ^^
I tried Linux like... 6 years ago and had a horrible experience. However I will take this test, and see what its like now. Big performance impact if I load it onto vmware? I don't want to dual boot atm, perhaps if it suits me I will.


----------



## mattliston

vmware>* for testing new operating systems


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *.:[Esai]:.*


My net card: D-Link DWL-520+

u can fix it?
i will change my OS...



Google for "madwifi" since it natively supports your nic. It's a really decent wireless nic. I know, I bought one specifically because of madwifi support about 3 years ago (yours is rev B w/ the atheros chipset, right?) > While ndiswrapper solves many ills it's always better to go native. It is even possible that the latest 2.6.x kernel has builtin support for atheros cards including that sweet Dlink.

Jimmy

PS sorry to be so late....stoopid sick for the holidays


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Google for "madwifi" since it natively supports your nic.


Not an Atheros chipset, looks like an ADM8211. This has been supported in Linux for quite a while.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *_GTech*


If I had to choose between Linux & Windows, the choice isn't even close, though I use both Linux & Windows, I prefer windows for more reasons than just gaming....


That's cool, I don't love Linux only because I can copy and paste anything (for example the quote and unquoute code) with just one swipe and click (no menu needed) merely an example (more? or edit every single line in the windows registry or any other body of text containing a phrase of my choice automatically with a single command) of how much more speedily efficient Linux is since it's made by people like me who want to use an OS, not sell me a buncha bloated but glitzy software.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *_GTech*


Why I dislike Linux:

1) Many Linux Programs & Distros are buggy, PERIOD.


Although Latty covered this well I'd like to remind you of the old saying that "software is either beta, obsolete or both" so all OS's must deal with some buggy programs. However I take strong issue with broad-brushing entire distros with "buggy". That's just an unreasonable claim bordering on silly, especially since you later state "it's ok for professional work".

Quote:



Originally Posted by *_GTech*


2) You cannot use Wine for A LOT of programs.


While this is a legitimate gripe for those new to Linux it does gradually disappear as one discovers good alternatives. Admittedly that takes some time but not very long at all especially if you ask on forums or even better, dedicated IRC channels in real time. (Word of caution - do not go to Linux channels *****ing about Linux, or even worse raving about Windoze superiority, while on a Windows box unless you are a security 1337)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *_GTech*


3) You are restricted to what people create & what they are not legally allowed to create!


You are not restricted in any way since you can create or modify whatever or however you like as long as yo pass on the GNU license if you decide to share it. Example: If you have a briliant idea that a proprietary windows sensor graphing program could be just slightly modified to tune your car's engine with your laptop, too bad. With Linux, you can do it. You can get help doing it. You can share it or even market it with virtually no fear of lawsuits. Incidentally the anount of free sogftware out there is just staggering anymore. Restricted? Not even!

Quote:



Originally Posted by *_GTech*


4) I have had stability issues with Linux & Overclocking, unlike windows...
(Yes even after much stress testing successfully in windows)


 This makes no sense. I have been an avid overclocker since 486's were new which is roughly when I got into Linux (Yes, I'm an old fscker) and more often than not Linux would run when Windows would not, simply because I've learned how to set Linux up properly in ways Windows can't even dream of such as with zero lag kernel for audio-video editing wheras Windows is stuck by it's unchangeable kernel with latencys measured in tens of milliseconds. Linux had cpu idle for almost a decade before that was built in to Windows. If you've had problems, it's only because you haven't learned how to set your PC up right for anything but Windows.

Incidentally BSOD is built in to Windows exactly because of it's ability to game or at least the way Billy and the boys designed it to game because DirectX circumvents the normally pre-emptive OS allowing programs direct access to hardware w/o following OS rules so the OS cannot stop or "sandbox" a crash. this is why you won't see DirectX installed on any system that is even remotely mission critical (although there are some really hilarious stories where Blue Screen of Death became almost literal for the Navy)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *_GTech*


I have noticed that, Linux never really uses the RAM i have installed, why is that?

I suppose it's becuase the Kernel is SO EFFICIENT it doesn't need more RAM maybe?


 Aside from the fact that Linux has been capable of addressing and using more ram than windows for many years, yes, in fact, it is more efficient and less of a memory leaker. Open up your taskmanager and note the number or running processes. If you're smart it's probably under 50 on a gaming box. I'm routinely at around 100 on a Linux box and this machine is an old one maxed out with 1/2 gig ram. Even if you have a modern gaming box with more than twice the resources as this box, if you start an endless escalating loop, by the time you hit 100 processes you will be frozen solid, even keyboard and mouse. I have hit over 200 processes and still spawning geometrically on this box and my mouse and keyboard still work and I can kill the spawning process and go right back to normal usage. You will be rebooting and waiting for a checkdisk to finish cleaning up the mess made of your data. When I say "you" I mean anyone with windows of any variety.... even this box.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *_GTech*


Linux will not let you do more task at once, if you copy a large file from a drive to a drive it more or less freezes your computer.


 While the above already trashes this ridiculous notion, add to it some common sense. Linux grew out of Unix which was built from "the ground up" as a multi-user, ,multi-tasking environment. Windows grew out of DOS which was designed as a single user, single task system. The old joke about Windows being "32 bit libraries on 16 bit graphic UI, on an 8 bit shell, that makes not 1 bit of sense" is not entirely a farcical joke. Bottom line - in this department Linux kicks sand in doze's face and steals his girlfriend.



_GTech said:


> I have had some SERIOUS hardware issues in linux that have cost me much $$$!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain. You can't kill hardware from the keyboard alone.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *_GTech*
> 
> 
> What Linux TEAM can defeat Micro$oft's TEAM??? Show me one...
> 
> 
> Uhhh let's see. Look up PHP, MySQL, and Apache for starters and then ask yourself if you prefer Firefox or Internet Explorer (THAT answer would speak VOLUMES!) or discover how cool Audacity is and find even a paid product that even comes close. Azureus (now Vuze), BitTorrent, Amarok, to name a few all started on Linux before anythng like them was on windows. Dude!, you have a whole world waiting for you if you get over this addiction that is keeping you weak.
> 
> Incidentally...What are you gonna do in 5 or 10 years if and when M$ decides the XBox sales are being hurt by Windows (and XBox is a huge captive audience, cash cow revenue stream even now, and monthly! as Billy and the Boys like it) and they decide to abandon Windows? What recourse would you have if they announced they were phasing it out and would only support it for 5 more years? Linux is made by people who love computers and code. Windows is made by people who love money.
> 
> If you are really serious, read "The Cathedral and The Bazaar".
> 
> regards
> Jimmy
Click to expand...


----------



## error10

Just a couple of notes.

Ironically, UNIX was created specifically to run a video game.

Linux users are the only people on the planet who successfully played MP3s on 80486 processors. At the time (the end of the 90's) Windows MP3 players required at least a 133MHz Pentium, and even that didn't work so well. I had an 80MHz 486DX2 and was ripping my CD collection on my Linux box long before most people had ever heard of MP3s.

Microsoft invests a LOT of their development time and money in eye candy and making their products look "finished." This is generally a good thing, though of course you pay for it. By and large, Linux developers invest their development time in making their products functional and usable. Adding in drop shadows and fading menus is often an afterthought. But a lot of work has gone into this recently. Both GNOME and KDE are starting to look a lot more like Windows 7, for instance.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Microsoft invests a LOT of their development time and money in eye candy and making their products look "finished." This is generally a good thing, though of course you pay for it. By and large, Linux developers invest their development time in making their products functional and usable. Adding in drop shadows and fading menus is often an afterthought. But a lot of work has gone into this recently.* Both GNOME and KDE are starting to look a lot more like Windows 7, for instance*.


Out of the box they don't have the same "pretty" look (IE: Glass, fades, ect) that Windows 7 or Vista has (because those make you run the Windows Score test on first boot) out of the box, but they still are very nice GUI's and arguably look better after the fact.

If Microsoft did allow a bit more end user freedom (like they have in 7 with moving the task bar) Windows, in my opinion, could be a better OS.

Let it be my Apple II roots in computers, or my love of Linux (with Gnome GUI), task bar on top has always been my favorite.


----------



## TFB

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tator Tot*


Out of the box they don't have the same "pretty" look (IE: Glass, fades, ect) that Windows 7 or Vista has (because those make you run the Windows Score test on first boot) out of the box, but they still are very nice GUI's and arguably look better after the fact.

If Microsoft did allow a bit more end user freedom (like they have in 7 with moving the task bar) Windows, in my opinion, could be a better OS.

Let it be my Apple II roots in computers, or my love of Linux (with Gnome GUI), task bar on top has always been my favorite.


I don't really care for the "glass look". If I wanted everything to look like it was wrapped in plastic wrap, I'd just wrap my monitor in it.

GNOME can do fades and all sorts of neat things with Compiz but I find myself disabling a lot of that stuff or keeping it stock. I did of course enable the cube.

Function over form. That's my belief.


----------



## trasixes

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tator Tot* 
Out of the box they don't have the same "pretty" look (IE: Glass, fades, ect) that Windows 7 or Vista has (because those make you run the Windows Score test on first boot) out of the box, but they still are very nice GUI's and arguably look better after the fact.

If Microsoft did allow a bit more end user freedom (*like they have in 7 with moving the task bar*) Windows, in my opinion, could be a better OS.

Let it be my Apple II roots in computers, or my love of Linux (with Gnome GUI), task bar on top has always been my favorite.

You could move the taskbar in XP, Vista, and if I remember correctly, even Win98 (been too long, can't be sure).


----------



## mattliston

Quote:



Originally Posted by *trasixes*


You could move the taskbar in XP, Vista, and if I remember correctly, even Win98 (been too long, can't be sure).


Heck yeah! on laptops I almost always move the taskbar to the top


----------



## legoman786

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mattliston* 
Heck yeah! on laptops I almost always move the taskbar to the top

I think he means being able to rearrange programs on the taskbar.

IE: FF, Winamp, Thunderbird, to Winamp, Thunderbird, FF. Ya feel me?


----------



## TFB

People still use taskbars in linux? I dropped it out and went with docky. Auto-hide means more screen real estate!


----------



## mattliston

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


I think he means being able to rearrange programs on the taskbar.

IE: FF, Winamp, Thunderbird, to Winamp, Thunderbird, FF. Ya feel me?


quicklaunch?


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mattliston*


quicklaunch?


No... -_-;

I'll get a pic up shortly.

EDIT: See pics. NOTE: Time. All I did was click and drag. No need to reopen programs that I already opened, just to rearrange them on my taskbar.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


I think he means being able to rearrange programs on the taskbar.

IE: FF, Winamp, Thunderbird, to Winamp, Thunderbird, FF. Ya feel me?


Yeah, that's what I was going for. (slightly bad wording on my part.)

But the drop down group menus and such, makes using Windows on a smaller res (like my sig rigs) so much easier.


----------



## error10

I guess moving apps around on the taskbar would be nice, but I've been using multiple desktops for so long that I've never felt the need to do it.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
I guess moving apps around on the taskbar would be nice, but I've been using multiple desktops for so long that I've never felt the need to do it.

Not just apps. Anything on the taskbar, you can choose on which taskbar you want it, and where.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Not just apps. Anything on the taskbar, you can choose on which taskbar you want it, and where.

Sounds like they've just made things overly complicated.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Sounds like they've just made things overly complicated.

Choice != Complicated.

If you don't ever try to touch anything, it'll be set up read for you and you'll never worry. If you want to change one thing, you can do easily, if you want to change everything, you can do.

Giving a user no options is not the same as simplicity.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


I guess moving apps around on the taskbar would be nice, but I've been using multiple desktops for so long that I've never felt the need to do it.


Even with 2 Monitors, having the ability to move things on the Task bar is very handy.

And them minimizing to small Icons and such, very nice.


----------



## TFB

Or you could just use a dock...


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TFB* 
Or you could just use a dock...

But now the dock option is integrated into windows and doesn't use up more resources like adding on Rocket Dock or Stardock


----------



## Arsin

I used Ubuntu 9.10 with SuperPi to calculate to 32M I got 48.xx when I ran it in Win7 I got 36.xx

I love Ubuntu but I have no idea why Linux got its ass handed to it


----------



## Apt Quadruped

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Arsin*


I used Ubuntu 9.10 with SuperPi to calculate to 32M I got 48.xx when I ran it in Win7 I got 36.xx

I love Ubuntu but I have no idea why Linux got its ass handed to it


Probably because SuperPi is intended to be run on Windows. Running something through Wine does not guarantee or even imply equal performance.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

I've been running with two Ubuntu boxes for a few months, and while it is fine for day-to-day use (I don't game - unless FreeCell counts.. lol) I have yet to find an easy way for it to Fold with GPUs.. Added to the fact that others who would use my machines would _not_ understand how to use it, and that I'm running a W2k3 Domain at home (and I have yet to find out how to join Linux to it) they would need to have their own accounts created on each box it runs on....
I have currently got 9 boxes in the house, including two servers, and I'm looking to build an i7 rig in the next month or so....

I'm going to be installing a Linux on the i7 when I get the parts in, but that's most likely to be in a VM environment and the host will be W7..


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Arsin*


I used Ubuntu 9.10 with SuperPi to calculate to 32M I got 48.xx when I ran it in Win7 I got 36.xx

I love Ubuntu but I have no idea why Linux got its ass handed to it


Trying to compare Windows to Linux with benchmarks is fine as long as you recall that Linux is a kernel, not an operating system, there are hundreds of generic Linux kernels and literally millions of possible vatiations since, unlike Windowa (less than 20 kernels in all since it's inception) it is highly customizable and each will bench differently. Also programs can be compiled for specific CPU types, further adding to already numerous variables.

Arsin did not post sufficient data to properly compare. In trying to replicate/test his results I assumed he used his "stuck with PC" so I booted up a similar old Dell P4 1.8GHz w/ 768M Rambus ram alternately with Win 7 Ultimate and Slackware 13 with it's initial default (ultra compatible) kernel called "kernel-huge-smp-2.6.29.6_smp-i686" since it is over 5 megs huge. For comparison my Slack 13 install on this box (Demon 64) is a custom kernel that is under 2 Megs. It's a lot faster than the huge smp kernel.

While a Super_Pi build is available for Linux (and Mac) I dont know if there is any substantial difference between 1.1 for windows and 1.5 for Mac/Linux, however at under 50 kilobytes for either it is simplicity itself and likely to be very similar if not essentially identical.

I really don't understand Arsin's results since the first numbers are similar but they are for initialization. Initialization on Win 7 for the Dell was 69 seconds. Initialization on Slack w/ huge kernel was 61 seconds.

There was some difficulty setting up similar iterations since Win 7 has a graphic frontend allowing only a selection of simplified, predetermined runs ie: 32M. The Linux version is CLI and requires one to type in calculation depth and the largest is roughly 33.6M (that's not 32 x 1.024) which is what I ran. Even with this slight disadvantage for Linux, while Win 7 completed it's 32M iteration in 246 seconds, Slack finished in 121 seconds. That's hardly Linux getting it's ass handed to it.

Please re-run your results or post more data.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man* 
I've been running with two Ubuntu boxes for a few months, and while it is fine for day-to-day use (I don't game - unless FreeCell counts.. lol) I have yet to find an easy way for it to Fold with GPUs.. Added to the fact that others who would use my machines would _not_ understand how to use it, and that I'm running a W2k3 Domain at home (and I have yet to find out how to join Linux to it) they would need to have their own accounts created on each box it runs on....


Spoiler: Hidden Text Below!



I have currently got 9 boxes in the house, including two servers, and I'm looking to build an i7 rig in the next month or so....



I'm going to be installing a Linux on the i7 when I get the parts in, but that's most likely to be in a VM environment and the host will be W7..

Before I begin with more serious stuff, I have to say I find it suspicious and comical that Freecell, which I still dearly love too, after no essential changes since Windows 3, now behaves exactly like it's Linux clone, Patience - Freecell. Now one must actually drag cards but the best copied feature is more the way in which the number of movable cards is computed. It's always bugged me that the win version did not allow for multiple open columns. Fixed now, apparently thanks to the Open Source community.

While I firmly agree that Linux requires knowledge to *setup*, it has not been my experience that windoze folks, even relative newbs, have problems *running* it, especially if using KDE in Linux. Not only was KDE originally designed for windows migrators but even XP, and especially Vista and Win 7 have copied much of the Linux interface, so they're closer than ever. If you need to network Linux w/ Windoze, see Samba which emulates doze style workgroups.

If you must virtualize why not use the higher performance more stable Linux as host and run the free VirtualBox http://www.virtualbox.org/ ? It already supports Win 7 (as well as W2K, obvioualy) as guest system. If you're already comfortable enough w/ Linux for day to day use why not make the break and get out from under the thumb of MS? Muscles used grow stronger than those allowed to idle.
Best Wishes
Jimmy


----------



## thenailedone

From Vista to Ubuntu... then Slackware, Arch, OpenSUSE, Debian, sidux... finally back to Ubuntu 9.10, it simply installs and works... <3 the Koala!


----------



## naval8viation

Aside from the inherent instability of using a rolling release, I might even recommend using Arch over Ubuntu for a few quick reasons:

A) When you use Ubuntu you just expect things to work and when they don't its been my experience that the documentation may not be quite up to par with other distro's because "everyone expects it to work anyway"

However, when you use Arch, you are expected to set things up on your own so the documentation is quite fantastic and problems that arise are almost always well-documented in advance.

B) Which brings me to my next point: wiki.archlinux.org. What an awesome website. They provide step-by-step instructions for doing nearly everything in Arch. If you are mature enough to read the documentation, you will be pleasantly surprised with Arch.

C) Bleeding Edge. This is a double edge sword. Because Arch is a rolling release you always get the latest and greatest updates for linux, however, unlike Debian where updates are thoroughly tested to death for compatibility, all these new updates will occasionally break things--the main reason you might want to know a little something about linux before using Arch. However, as long as you use your brain and dont update randomly and do a bit of reading before pulling the trigger on your update, you can usually find out the problems people are experiencing ahead of time and then choose to update accordingly.

D) Small and fast. Arch is blindingly fast. There isn't any bloat because you get to decide what you want, when you want, and where you want it. If you think Ubuntu is customizable, then you will have a heart-attack when you move into the Arch scene. I use Arch on my little netbook, 2gb ram, 1.66Ghz Atom and I use my netbook for everything! Generally speaking, I use less than 15% of my RAM for everyday activities--usually far less than 15%. I can program (with Eclipse), compile programs easily, view/edit all Microsoft documents (with OpenOffice, which even my wife prefers now and shes a Windows 7 user!), watch videos in HD, surf the web, basically all the general computing tasks, on my little netbook using Arch and to top it off, I can generally do those things just as fast as an average windows user whose using a computer with twice the power. (Note on Ubuntu: Ubuntu isn't nearly as small and fast, and yes, I refer even to the Ubuntu minimal install).

If you have the patience and are willing to actually read a manual, then Arch Linux just might be the distro that will change your perception of Linux--especially in the netbook world its been fantastic! Just a STRONG REMINDER: to be successful in Arch it takes patience, reading (lots of reading) and dedication, but I promise you when everything finally comes together and you reach that "aha" moment, you wont want to look back.

Disclaimer: (This obviously doesn't include gaming, because, yes, we all know that there are very few software titles that are natively compatible with Linux. If there were, Windows would in a very bad place.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Before I begin with more serious stuff, I have to say I find it suspicious and comical that Freecell, which I still dearly love too, after no essential changes since Windows 3, now behaves exactly like it's Linux clone, Patience - Freecell. Now one must actually drag cards but the best copied feature is more the way in which the number of movable cards is computed. It's always bugged me that the win version did not allow for multiple open columns. Fixed now, apparently thanks to the Open Source community.

While I firmly agree that Linux requires knowledge to *setup*, it has not been my experience that windoze folks, even relative newbs, have problems *running* it, especially if using KDE in Linux. Not only was KDE originally designed for windows migrators but even XP, and especially Vista and Win 7 have copied much of the Linux interface, so they're closer than ever. If you need to network Linux w/ Windoze, see Samba which emulates doze style workgroups.

If you must virtualize why not use the higher performance more stable Linux as host and run the free VirtualBox http://www.virtualbox.org/ ? It already supports Win 7 (as well as W2K, obvioualy) as guest system. If you're already comfortable enough w/ Linux for day to day use why not make the break and get out from under the thumb of MS? Muscles used grow stronger than those allowed to idle. 
Best Wishes
Jimmy


I would prolly be setting the i7 up as a multi-boot box, with M$ and Ubuntu (not forgetting to allow extra space for more partitions, as I might also allow another OS/kernel to camp out on there too) and have the W7 OS running Ubuntu as a VM, and the Ubuntu running M$ as a VM...

If I get the job I had an interphew with today, then I might well start using Linux more often too...


----------



## enorbet2

OK this may be old news to some but I'm guessing some peeps here who love games and find that a deal breaker for Linux hust may not know about Loki. Lokigames http://www.lokigames.com , afaik the only attempt at commerical gaming via actual porting from Windows for Linux is now and has been out of biz for quite some time. However as is often so in the Open Source community, they still make their development tools and installers available for free download, useful for numerous things and also still make many good games playable in Linux.

A list of originally supported games can be found at the home site (above) or the wiki here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki_Software and as you can see some of the games are still quite cool. An updated list with newer games can be found here at one of the mirrors http://www.liflg.org/?catid=6

Any real gamer knows many old games are still cool and fun to play because they just have great storyline and gameplay otherwise nobody would be interested in old Sega, Nintendo, and Playstation titles let alone LAME arcade game emulators which incidentaly runs fine in Linux too.

I can personally attest to the decent quality of Rune, Soldier of Fortune I and II. and Heretic. I still enjoy Quake III Arena (and extremely low lag makes it especially fun online) and while I rarely play it anymore if you've never played Tribes 2 you should try it. I'm not a huge RPG fan but even I know Sid Meier is a monster game developer. Check em out.

Jimmy


----------



## enorbet2

Try Kubuntu. It's Ubuntu w/ KDE.


----------



## naval8viation

If you really want games on Linux there is wine and a few variations like wine-doors, but performance suffers a lot. Then there is the commercial platform Cedega, but they are basically just a hyped up hack of wine and in my experience, while the games are playable, its not nearly as good as using the native OS. But this has already been thoroughly addressed: Windows is superior, by default, for playing games--no fault of Linux, but thats where it ends. Otherwise learn to use Linux and don't look back.


----------



## enorbet2

There comes a time after one has used Linux long enough (and I have) that returning to Windoze is mostly a reminder of why I jumped ship in the first place over 10 years ago. I think it's worth mentioning how that happened because it's a good example of it's marketing strategy and how M$ prefers to maintain control, keep it's users/customers dumb and shelling out the sheckels for minor upgrades they pawn off as new releases just because it has a face lift, so in a nutshell....

Shortly after Win 95 came out USB and especially the then new AGP bus became popular and common on new mobos and Win 95 had no support. I called M$ after I searched all over the Net for a single file called USBSUPP which added support for both but couldn;t find it anywhere. I was told I could purchase that one file (less than 100 KB iirc) for fifty (50) dollars! Naturally w/o even stopping for breath I was told the best solurion was to buy Win98 for slightly more money in the upgrade version. The change to Win 98 from Win 95 was *WAY* less than I was seeing in FREE service packs with ther OSes, notably IBM's OS/2 Warp which enjoyed over 20 such service packs, all FREE with original purchase. It was at that moment that I donned my eyepatch and began flying the skull and crossbones and began exploring Linux, to get out from under a company that viewd it's supporters as moronic cash cows.

I take exception at how I interpret "if you *really* want games on Linux..." since I take that to mean that older games have no value or that one must give up all gaming in Linux. I've tried Wine and Cedega and they aren't useful enough for games IMHO to continue. However I can't even count the number of games I've bought the "new and improved" sequel only to discover it reeked, having nothing of the fun of the original, merely capitalizing.on the popularity and brand recognition.

Certainly there are also exceptions. I'll lay down bucks for Quake 5 and Half Life 3 in a heartbeat. Doom 3 however proved it takes more than awesome graphics, dark rooms and burly monsters from hell to make a good game. It's all about gameplay. That may be why so many phone games and flash games still gain popularity. The good ones are just FUN and apparently few people really inderstand why. Witness Mario Kart or it's Linux clone, Tux Racer.

Things aren't good because they're old or new. They're just good because they're good. But then I suppose I should admit that I still have a dedicated DOS box and occaissionally fire it up to play Doom 1 & 2, Road Rash 1 (I always was a sucker for motorcycles and Soundgarden), Terminal Velocity 1 oh yeah and every once in awhile even Duke Nukem 3D. If you haven't played Quake 3 Arena with modern hardware on a broadband connection, you really should, and yes, there still actually exists an online community.

If I had to pare down and stop dual booting for those few awesome PC games requiring windows, just gimme a Linux PC and a PS3 oe XBox. I'll still enjoy some gaming in Linux with older native/ported games from time to time.


----------



## lattyware

As to native Linux games, check out Introversion software - some awesome games (especially defcon).


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
Wanna know if Linux is fast? reliable? Check this out!

http://www.ecosmotors.com/harbinger.html

Jimmy

You just have to wonder why a machine obviously designed for "money is no object" folks would "skimp" and "gamble" on a free OpSys when Windoze is literally one tenth of one percent (0.001) the cost of the machine, even at full retail. Hmmmm.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Try Kubuntu. It's Ubuntu w/ KDE.


Haven't got time to Google it, but would that enable me (and any other users) to log in with our domain credentials...? Ideally I would like to join all of my rigs up to the domain...

If it is going to do what I want, then I'll download a copy and give it a whirl...


----------



## enorbet2

Hey NLM
You can do that in regular Ubuntu as well, as after all Linux comes w/ all manner of servers, but coming from Windows I think you'll find it much easier in KDE. Version 4 has an analog to control panel and a start menu handily divided into categories.

You will probably want to be sure you have Samba installed if you want to handle Windows style workgroups but that should be breeze since all flavors of Ubuntu have as their most attractive feature to the newly migrated, Synaptic, a falling-off-a-log easy software repository/download/installer gooey for apt-get.

Fortunately there is an iso available that has both installer and LiveCD here
http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu

As you probably know I'm not a Ubuntu fan to rhe degree that I have it hard drive installed anymore but I do have Kubuntu installed on Ultimate Boot CD for PC diagnostics, setup, and repair. It and the ultra light Puppy Linux are my favorite work CDs.

Anyway the point is you can try it w/o any commitment or danger to see if you like it before installing. Then install is a breeze.
enjoy


----------



## dranas

I installed fedora on an inspiron 1505 for a 62 year old teacher. She didnt like how the school kept getting into her computer remotely and wanted to make it impossible for them, i say impossible because none of them have even heard of linux. Shes been using linux for 4 years now. Most things she figured out her self. On the more difficult things she calls me and ill show her. Difficult being converting video formats and such. Linux isnt for everyone, but atleast try it before you knock it. You might find you really like it. ^_^


----------



## evermooingcow

Linux is "easier" to pick up for casual users not because they don't have to unlearn Windows or anything like that but because the extent of their PC usage is limited to web browsing and email. That much takes no time to pick up on a modern graphical Linux OS.


----------



## donutpirate

If you do try Linux and install it on a partition of your HDD and want to delete it one day, better make damn sure you have a Windows recovery disc/partition if it's on the same HDD as your OS. Not the same partition as your OS, but the same physical HDD. Can't get rid of GRUB loader without the recovery console. When you delete the Linux partition, GRUB stays behind and won't boot into Windows or anything else. I had to dig out my THANKFULLY created recovery disc to fix the MBR file that GRUB had overwritten. My retail Windows 7 DVD wouldn't run the recovery console for some reason. Would have either had to:

A. Repartition entire drive and do a clean install. This means everything, not just installing over the partition where my OS is located, but the ENTIRE drive since GRUB is a sneaky bastard.

B. Live with it every time I boot and keep Linux installed so that I CAN boot.

I like the Linux Live CD, but don't want it on any of my hard drives. It's great for Memtest and Gparted and the like, though.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *donutpirate*


If you do try Linux and install it on a partition of your HDD and want to delete it one day, better make damn sure you have a Windows recovery disc/partition if it's on the same HDD as your OS. Not the same partition as your OS, but the same physical HDD. Can't get rid of GRUB loader without the recovery console. When you delete the Linux partition, GRUB stays behind and won't boot into Windows or anything else. I had to dig out my THANKFULLY created recovery disc to fix the MBR file that GRUB had overwritten. My retail Windows 7 DVD wouldn't run the recovery console for some reason. Would have either had to:

A. Repartition entire drive and do a clean install. This means everything, not just installing over the partition where my OS is located, but the ENTIRE drive since GRUB is a sneaky bastard.

B. Live with it every time I boot and keep Linux installed so that I CAN boot.

I like the Linux Live CD, but don't want it on any of my hard drives. It's great for Memtest and Gparted and the like, though.


Grub has to replace the MBR to function. There are actually a number of options:

Have a separate /boot partition and keep grub around even though you removed Linux.

Use FIXMBR, as you said, which should work fine.

Use something like the Super Grub Disc to boot and fix.


----------



## donutpirate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Grub has to replace the MBR to function. There are actually a number of options:

Have a separate /boot partition and keep grub around even though you removed Linux.

Use FIXMBR, as you said, which should work fine.

Use something like the Super Grub Disc to boot and fix.

I tried Super Grub Disc, wouldn't boot without the MBR







When I restarted and tried booting into it, it gave me an error about MBR missing. My only option was the FixMbr method, which would have been impossible for me to access if it wasn't for my partition with backed up system files. I guess that's the purpose of back ups, though







Can never be too careful.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donutpirate* 
I tried Super Grub Disc, wouldn't boot without the MBR







When I restarted and tried booting into it, it gave me an error about MBR missing. My only option was the FixMbr method, which would have been impossible for me to access if it wasn't for my partition with backed up system files. I guess that's the purpose of back ups, though







Can never be too careful.

Super Grub Disc definitely does boot without an MBR, that's somewhat the point.


----------



## enorbet2

Previously the record for the longest computation of pi was held by the Japanese T2K Open SuperComputer at 2.5 Trillion decimal places. It has just been smashed by a lowly home PC running an I7 Intel CPU w/ 6 G Ram and 5 x 1.5TB Seagate Barracudas in RAID 0. In 103 days he pumped out 2.7 Trillion decimal places. It took a massive 1,137 GB of storage just to store the number.

....and oh yeah he was running 64 bit Red Hat Fedora 10.

Full story everywhere like slashdot but here's word from a more windows oriented publication

http://tinyurl.com/yja8x3h

linux is crushing everywhere, not just on ~$100K Sports Cars








muahahahah


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donutpirate* 
If you do try Linux and install it on a partition of your HDD and want to delete it one day, better make damn sure you have a Windows recovery disc/partition if it's on the same HDD as your OS. Not the same partition as your OS, but the same physical HDD. Can't get rid of GRUB loader without the recovery console. When you delete the Linux partition, GRUB stays behind and won't boot into Windows or anything else. I had to dig out my THANKFULLY created recovery disc to fix the MBR file that GRUB had overwritten. My retail Windows 7 DVD wouldn't run the recovery console for some reason. Would have either had to:

A. Repartition entire drive and do a clean install. This means everything, not just installing over the partition where my OS is located, but the ENTIRE drive since GRUB is a sneaky bastard.

<snip>

I think this is over-reacting and borders on FUD to scare peeps from taking the challenge. Numerous tools will fix the Master Boot Record. There are numerous ways to boot a windows install (yes, even Win 7) such as by chainloading with a smart boot loader or even a simple NTLDR type boot thumb drive or floppy for those of us who still have them.

This is slightly OT since it doesn't necessarily involve the linux challenge, but since windows recovery has been brought up I must HIGHLY recommend the Hiren's Boot CD. Google for it as it is a veritable warehouse of awesome tools even if it's legality may be controversial in some countries. Just keep it amongst your hacker friends.
Nuff Said
Jimmy


----------



## mothrpe

I love Ubuntu 9.10, pretty much rock solid and awesome, but I can't play my games, if linux could play dx9 games at the same speed I'd never go back to windows. Hopefully one day this can be accomplished.


----------



## enorbet2

For starters DirectX9 is not a problem for Linux and may be a reason DX10 was so quickly and badly developed for Vista (and Vista only at the time).

Proof: Anyone can download the Doom3 demo or the Quake4 demo for Linux (both DX9 games installed with a fairly simple script to "go native"Linux) and compare.

Fact: They run substantially faster than in Windows on identical boxes or the same box, plus the port was/is fairly rudimentary... pre DX10, but then, even DX10 games must maintain DX9 compatibility. Hmmmm....

There are numerous benchmarks, blogs, and shootouts (even at TomsHardware) that have run such comparisons. All the scientific ones agree. Linux is faster and more stable.

So why isn't Linux an important, or even competitive gaming platform?

Opinion: Loki went out of business because of problems with GPL and OpenSource as well as the possible tendency for Linux users to be more hacker-pirate-ish, certainly more familiar with modifying code. So until some large portion of the buying public sees Linux as a viable *for pay* platform, it is unlikely gaming will go much beyond the community level support it has today. That's not altogether bad since getting powerful tools for creating and porting games is very easy in Linux and some game developers cut their teeth on Linux and in fact many modern games are written in Linux. For more info see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_engine

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines

just for starters.

Maybe you, dear reader, might be the next John Carmack. It is possible. If you read the plain English script and compare to the installation scripts for full games, you may just be the one who ports newer games to Linux, and grows famous, if not rich. Odds aren't presently good but the path is clear and readily available.

While on technicalities, gaming, Linux, and setting the record straight,
I apologize for a previous typo in which I listed LAME as the encoder/decoder for Linux PC game emulators for arcade games. LAME is of course the decoder for mp3s. MAME is what I meant and is the proper arcade device.

Oh and one last shot across the bow of the MBR fiasco. No hard disk, no partition on any hard disk, will stop a thumb drive, CD, or DVD from booting... just to be clear. If your boot CD, etc., Super Grub or otherwise doesn't boot, you have a bad burn or don't know how to setup your boot options in BIOS. Don't blame it on Linux or Grub.


----------



## Arrowslinger

From what I have read there are all sorts of hoops you have to jump through to get these OS to function correctly, namely wireless.

Or have I been reading the wrong articles?

I would not mind trying it but I simply do not want to spend a huge amount of time looking for drivers OR modifying code.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger* 
From what I have read there are all sorts of hoops you have to jump through to get these OS to function correctly, namely wireless.

Or have I been reading the wrong articles?

I would not mind trying it but I simply do not want to spend a huge amount of time looking for drivers OR modifying code.

That sounds a lot like Windows to me.


----------



## Arrowslinger

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
That sounds a lot like Windows to me.









Funny, installation of 7 was so smooth it was unreal everything worked, no prompts, no "?" in device manager, it simply worked.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger* 
Funny, installation of 7 was so smooth it was unreal everything worked, no prompts, no "?" in device manager, it simply worked.

Count yourself lucky. I've lost count of the number of Windows boxes where something didn't work right out of the box and took a large amount of hammering and cursing to get working right -- or just never would work right at all and had to be abandoned.

Maybe somebody should put together a Linux Upgrade Advisor software that tells you if your hardware will work before you install it.


----------



## Dman

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
For starters DirectX9 is not a problem for Linux and may be a reason DX10 was so quickly and badly developed for Vista (and Vista only at the time).

Proof: Anyone can download the Doom3 demo or the Quake4 demo for Linux (both DX9 games installed with a fairly simple script to "go native"Linux) and compare.

Fact: They run substantially faster than in Windows on identical boxes or the same box, plus the port was/is fairly rudimentary... pre DX10, but then, even DX10 games must maintain DX9 compatibility. Hmmmm....


Thats because Carmack has been coding his engines using OpenGL since Quake one, an open standard. The only reason the native installs of Doom 3 etc. run faster in Linux is because they use OpenGL, not because they are coded amazingly in directX 9. DirectX is a Microsoft API, closed source and not native to Linux.


----------



## evermooingcow

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger* 
From what I have read there are all sorts of hoops you have to jump through to get these OS to function correctly, namely wireless.

Or have I been reading the wrong articles?

I would not mind trying it but I simply do not want to spend a huge amount of time looking for drivers OR modifying code.

Funny I like Linux and migrated to Linux because I _like_ spending time tweaking.

Quote:

Thats because Carmack has been coding his engines using OpenGL since Quake one, an open standard. The only reason the native installs of Doom 3 etc. run faster in Linux is because they use OpenGL, not because they are coded amazingly in directX 9. DirectX is a Microsoft API, closed source and not native to Linux.
Quake games (at least some) use OpenGL in Windows too so that would be a fair comparison.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger*


From what I have read there are all sorts of hoops you have to jump through to get these OS to function correctly, namely wireless.

Or have I been reading the wrong articles?

I would not mind trying it but I simply do not want to spend a huge amount of time looking for drivers OR modifying code.


No. Pretty much just check what you're going to be using that requires drivers, and see if it's supported.

Your board & GPU will work just fine though. But ATi cards do not game so well in Linux right now when using WINE. They are not terrible, but the ATi drivers are behind nVidia as far as linux is concerned.


----------



## TFB

The only hoop I had to jump through was plugging my USB wifi dongle in.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


The only hoop I had to jump through was plugging my USB wifi dongle in.


For as much as Windows costs, they should send the Geek Squad to plug in your dongle for you!


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dman* 
Thats because Carmack has been coding his engines using OpenGL since Quake one, an open standard. The only reason the native installs of Doom 3 etc. run faster in Linux is because they use OpenGL, not because they are coded amazingly in directX 9.

Same box. Same game. Same 3d Rendering engine. Only difference = OS. How doesn't that compare fairly?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dman* 
DirectX is a Microsoft API, closed source and not native to Linux.

Besides the facts that

1) one can download the DirectX 9.0c redist and install it in WINE on both Mac and Linux (even on XP which gives hope to XP users for DX10)

2) porting software can sub calls for DirectX9 with equivalent calls for OpenGL

see example here http://www.macworld.com/article/5387...hlsl2glsl.html

whatever about my posts would lead you to believe that I wouldn't know that DirectX is an M$ API and closed source? ...especially when I stated that was the main reason that M$ developed DX10 and excluded XP. This is history repeating itself. M$ routinely alters code even if it hurts the app if the tradeoff is more market share.
Jimmy


----------



## enorbet2

Anyone doubting that microsoft will damage it's own software's functionality just to gain market share has only to google for the history of Internet Explorer. They gave CDs away in breakfast cereal at first circa Win95 since Billy had freaked when he realized that Netscape combined with plugins like Java and Flash could run applications and on any platform.... It was a @*%&*# *Operating System* or at least could function like one and that threatened to undo all Billy's finagling, thieving, and bullying to make Windows exceed a 70% market share which made Office a blockbuster hit cash cow to a captive audience. (Remember this was pre XBox and Zune , etc. when ms didn't sell hardware) Note: rumours back then were that the only hardware they made that didn't suck was vacuum cleaners ;P

Anyway the main reason for the push to Win98 was integration of Internet Explorer into the OS, mostly accomplished through multiple DLL's being arbitrarily combined into one so that, as they stated to the Dept of Justice, "the OS won't work without IE". They lied. In court.

In an afternoon someone removed IE and not only did the OS run but it ran better... faster. Once this got out, among other things, software appeared like "Revenge of Mozilla" (free) and "98Lite" (for pay) and a few others which especially appealed to gamers because it made 98 leaner and meaner while maintaining USB, AGP, and a few other fairly important updates still working.

Despite all this IE gained huge market share just like Billy wanted and it eventually killed Netscape who went open source. For several years (look it up) IE stagnated and had virtually no functional improvements even in security, winning it the moniker of "hackers best friend" since it was so easy to punch through it's holes, and it stayed that way until Firefox not only broke on the scene, not only added such now necessities like tabbed browsing and extensions, but finally gained sufficient market share to gain M$ attention... Years later!

They don't care about their customers. They don't even particularly care about their product. They care about one thing. Buy low, sell high.

The only thing customers get is glitz and compatibility. Personally I think the juice isn't worth the squeeze. I have no problem with those who do but it does irk me a little bit when they don't realize the more people use Linux (or Mac, or whatever) the better Windows has to get to maintain share, just like with IE and Vista. If you don't think Mac and Linux played a part in why Windows 7 is pretty decent for Windows, you don't know Microsoft's history. IE? Fuggeddabotit.

Jimmy


----------



## Arrowslinger

Just saying......

Why does it seem "some" not all, other OS fans always seem to hint in some way or other that Microsoft is:

1. Evil
2. Have customers because most users are dumb
3. Microsoft uses its monopoly to crush competition
4. If the first three fail we fall to "its bloated and buggy"

We "geeks", "techs", "PC junkies" have a tendency to think that just because we can manually set up a network everyone else can too. Microsoft makes a product that does what everyone needs it to and they keep the market cornered because of it. The 80% that still use IE use it because they don't believe they have the technical skills to use firefox.

Again I am not knocking the other products but lacks in taste to rail on the major competitor to try and hammer a point.

Just saying....


----------



## TFB

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


For as much as Windows costs, they should send the Geek Squad to plug in your dongle for you!

















Geek Squad won't touch linux









Quote:



Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger*


Just saying......

Why does it seem "some" not all, other OS fans always seem to hint in some way or other that Microsoft is:

1. Evil
2. Have customers because most users are dumb
3. Microsoft uses its monopoly to crush competition
4. If the first three fail we fall to "its bloated and buggy"

We "geeks", "techs", "PC junkies" have a tendency to think that just because we can manually set up a network everyone else can too. Microsoft makes a product that does what everyone needs it to and they keep the market cornered because of it. The 80% that still use IE use it because they don't believe they have the technical skills to use firefox.

Again I am not knocking the other products but lacks in taste to rail on the major competitor to try and hammer a point.

Just saying....


1. I don't know if I'd say "evil" but I would say they are highly competitive to the point where it doesn't cast them in the most positive light.

When Win7 was announced, they railed on Linux with flat out lies. I have no problem with someone boasting the merits of their OS as long as they do it factually. The lies are bad.

Then there is MS's history. Some of their practices of pretty much buying out system vendors isn't really a bright spot in their past. Pretty much forcing your software on people and then claiming you're number 1 rings kind of hollow to me.

2. I don't think Windows users are dumb. I think they just haven't seen all the options they have.

3. I don't see how you can't see that. They absolutely do. Something like 99% of all computers sold have Windows installed. Most people have never even heard of Linux. I've booted up my laptop (when she was still alive) and I heard, "How did you turn that into a mac?" and "What version of windows is that!?"

MS has brainwashed people into thinking they're the only game in town.

4. I can't fault Windows for having bugs. All software does. Linux does too. It's the nature of the beast.

What I have a problem with, and where you'll find the difference, is bug resolution. A bug happens in Windows and it could be months before you see a fix. In Linux, I think the longest it's taken me to patch my system is a week. All I have to do is look and there is some dude out there that says, "Oh yeah, I had that problem. I did x,y,z." and boom. Done. 
Or they just fix themselves through updates.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger*


Why does it seem "some" not all, other OS fans always seem to hint in some way or other that Microsoft is:

1. Evil
2. Have customers because most users are dumb
3. Microsoft uses its monopoly to crush competition
4. If the first three fail we fall to "its bloated and buggy"

We "geeks", "techs", "PC junkies" have a tendency to think that just because we can manually set up a network everyone else can too. Microsoft makes a product that does what everyone needs it to and they keep the market cornered because of it. The 80% that still use IE use it because they don't believe they have the technical skills to use firefox.

Again I am not knocking the other products but lacks in taste to rail on the major competitor to try and hammer a point.


Call me tasteless for pointing out flaws in a product?









My biggest problem with Windows is that it's so hard to use. Bloated, buggy, evil monopoly, those are just icing on the cake.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger* 
Just saying......

Why does it seem "some" not all, other OS fans always seem to hint in some way or other that Microsoft is:

1. Evil
2. Have customers because most users are dumb
3. Microsoft uses its monopoly to crush competition
4. If the first three fail we fall to "its bloated and buggy"

We "geeks", "techs", "PC junkies" have a tendency to think that just because we can manually set up a network everyone else can too. Microsoft makes a product that does what everyone needs it to and they keep the market cornered because of it. The 80% that still use IE use it because they don't believe they have the technical skills to use firefox. Again I am not knocking the other products but lacks in taste to rail on the major competitor to try and hammer a point.

Just saying....

!?!? Firstly WHAT technical skill !?!? If you can't install and click on Firefox, you are not a geek, techie or PC junkie. Such a person needs to go down to the store on the 3rd aisle and buy a clue. Just sayin... try it. Get some skilz.

The subject of good and fair business practices, let alone good vs/ evil, is far too complicated a subject to get deeply into on a forum. To keep it simpler let me use an example of *Olympic snowboarder Shaun White*. Let me start off by saying that I choose to believe what I see that he is just head and shoulders above the competition because of the combination of good genes, ambition, and extreme hard work, among other positive attributes.

Any of you that have seen his Gold Medal winning 1st run or even his victory run *!YEAH!*in which he ended with a dangerous trick that nobody else can do yet even when he didn't have to since "it was already in the bag" can see why he is so compelling and believable.

However if it turned out he had offered a million dollars to some better competitor to stay out of the competition, that wouldn't be evil, just a little compromizing and probably disappointing..

If instead he had spent a million dollars to use private detectives to dig up dirt, and writers to spin it so that he could claim the guy's Dad was a "possibly a pedophile" and his Mom was a drug addict "hooked on alcohol and anti-depressants" and just maybe the competing athlete's integrity is questionable since "the apple can't fall too far from the tree" to get him disqualified, that might not be exactly evil, just sleazy and unfair

OTOH if Shaun had "accidentally" dropped a 10 kilo barbell on the guys foot during qualification runs or cracked the guys board or hired some guy to beat him with a baton (oh wait... that's been done.. see Nancy Kerrigan) at the very least it should dampen your enthusiasm since that's skirting pretty close to evil, if not right on the mark.

However if the rules of Olympic Snowboarding get changed to resemble "professional wrestling" where it's expected to hit opponents over the head with chairs, or drop barbells on feet, it becomes more cloudy again. It would be fair and legal but it would lose something for me and I would probably not watch it or care.

So I'm not claiming that Microsoft is even unethical, let alone evil, since apparently the rules of that game allow for moneyed interests to buy favorable legislation and spread viscious, untrue rumors about the competition, (witness Rupert Murdoch and his Fox News) but the fact remains that they have indeed done these things and I'm not talking about "buyouts". Just look up the DOJ case or the practise of pricing Windows, not by how many copies OEMs buy, but rather how many processors they sell in total. That way, Windows is already paid for in effect so why increase costs by employing a competitors OpSys? Not evil, maybe not illegal, but certainly sleazy and unfair. We needn't even talk about the FUD and outright lies.

Henry Ford was similar and far more despicable in some ways, but I have owned many Ford automobiles, especially when they were made so a shadetree mechanic could fairly easily fix or modify them. So I'm not talking down. I'm guilty, too. In my defense, Henry Ford was dead and no longer funding Nazis by the time I was of age to drive. Had he been alive and had I known he supported racism and nazism, I'd like to believe that I would refuse to buy his product and be a part of the support for such behaviour.

As for "dumb", it should be clear that it is perfectly OK to design things to be used by customers ignorant of how that thing works. Most cars assume drivers haven't a clue beyond turn the key, put in "Drive" and step on the right pedal, oh yeah,and use the steering wheel. I can't begin to recreate an IPod. So I don't have any problem with M$ creating a system for dummies too busy or too lazy to take control of their own PC.
It may be pandering to the lowest common denominator but that's just good business, right?

If that's what you desire or need that's fine with me, but I ask you to just open up Explorer on your fabulous Win 7 install and count how many directories you can't even see, even with "full administrator privileges" EVEN if you hack the registry to grant full rights to admin account. Then ask yourself who really owns your PC?

More importantly, Lattyware in creating this thread, simply and nobly invited people to try Linux to see for themselves and has offered help if someone has troube... all for free.. Look through the 100+ pages and see just how many posts from *users* not even M$ employees have been offended by this and spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt about Linux and championed Windows.

Look, it's cool if you buy a Saturn. You can even convince yourself it's as good as a Cadillac if you want to. Just please refrain from trying to deceive others that it's really a Ferrari or more importantly dissuade them from building a kit car. Don't hand me feces and try to convince me it's chocolate.

So
1) M$ is not evil, just a sleazy bully, sometimes
2) Yup! It's in their interest to keep you dumb and buying their expertise.
3) Absolutely. Fact and in historical record.
4) In order to do everything for everybody and support almost all hardware it HAS to be bloated.

Flip side, given all that it is an amazing accomplishment that it is sometimes as good as it is. Just know what you're getting and supporting.... and try Linux. If this years model doesn't work for you try next years. It's progressing rapidly. Plus it keeps Windows on it's toes. Win/Win for everyone.

Here's a new challenge for anyone so inclined. Go to any forum and post "Linux is great for power users who want to own their PCs inside and out!". That's all...don't say anything bad about anyone or anything. In a month or two graph out the number of posts that are positive vs/ the number from windoze defenders who are offended by such a simple statement. Then post "Windows is great for those who don't care to know how a PC works, but just want to use it productively" Compare the number of negatives.

Just sayin....

Keep it real
Jimmy


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger*


Just saying......

Why does it seem "some" not all, other OS fans always seem to hint in some way or other that Microsoft is:

1. Evil
2. Have customers because most users are dumb
3. Microsoft uses its monopoly to crush competition
4. If the first three fail we fall to "its bloated and buggy"

*We "geeks", "techs", "PC junkies" have a tendency to think that just because we can manually set up a network everyone else can too. *Microsoft makes a product that does what everyone needs it to and they keep the market cornered because of it. The 80% that still use IE use it because they don't believe they have the technical skills to use firefox.

Again I am not knocking the other products but lacks in taste to rail on the major competitor to try and hammer a point.

Just saying....


Sorry to widdle on your stuff, but what you're talking about has almost no resemblance of an indication about someone's "tech skills" to set up a network, that's pretty much done with DHCP and DNS....

File sharing is pretty easy too, whether in M$ or Ubuntu - and I'd put money on the same being true of other OS/flavours too... In fact, even though I'm M$ Certifried and have a total of maybe 30 hours time playing/working/using Ubuntu, it seems as though Ubuntu is even easier to share files/folders out than M$ is...

Now, I will get back to reading some other posts...


----------



## dkev

I used Ubuntu for several months last year before Win 7 RC came out. I read everything I could and spent the time to get comfortable with it. Loved it. It is far more secure then Windows hands down. There are no known viruses in the wild for Linux. Don't need a fire wall because Linux doesn't listen to the ports unless you tell it to. And networking is far easier then Windows. I was shocked how little I had to do to network my systems. So when 7 rc came out I went back. I wanted to game. And I do love Win 7. Who doesn't? So now my RC is about to die and I don't have the cash to buy it just now. So I download and install the latest Ubuntu. I can not believe the changes they made in just 2 upgrade cycles. It is far more refined then it was last year GUI wise. Hopefully MS will release Direct X code to the linux community. Thats really the only major hurdle as far as gaming on Linux goes.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger* 
Just saying......

Why does it seem "some" not all, other OS fans always seem to hint in some way or other that Microsoft is:

1. Evil
2. Have customers because most users are dumb
3. Microsoft uses its monopoly to crush competition
4. If the first three fail we fall to "its bloated and buggy"

We "geeks", "techs", "PC junkies" have a tendency to think that just because we can manually set up a network everyone else can too. Microsoft makes a product that does what everyone needs it to and they keep the market cornered because of it. The 80% that still use IE use it because they don't believe they have the technical skills to use firefox.

Again I am not knocking the other products but lacks in taste to rail on the major competitor to try and hammer a point.

Just saying....


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linus Torvalds*
Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems.

not allowed only a quote.


----------



## trasixes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Arrowslinger*


Just saying......

Why does it seem "some" not all, other OS fans always seem to hint in some way or other that Microsoft is:

1. Evil
2. Have customers because most users are dumb
3. Microsoft uses its monopoly to crush competition
4. If the first three fail we fall to "its bloated and buggy"

We "geeks", "techs", "PC junkies" have a tendency to think that just because we can manually set up a network everyone else can too. Microsoft makes a product that does what everyone needs it to and they keep the market cornered because of it. The 80% that still use IE use it because they don't believe they have the technical skills to use firefox.

Again I am not knocking the other products but lacks in taste to rail on the major competitor to try and hammer a point.

Just saying....


I get exactly what you are saying, and I agree. It's a great disservice to Linux, IMHO, to promote Linux by slamming MS. If Linux is ever to become anything close to mainstream, it needs to stand on it's own ground, rather than playing David to Microsoft's Goliath.

Windows is a great OS. I've had no problems with it - at all - since 9x. I'm not saying it is without bugs, but only the clueless masses generally suffer through malware, bugs, etc. Most of us with any sort of understanding of the OS can avoid malware effortlessly, and without thought.

Linux is a great OS, with literally limitless possibilities. It has it's own merits, and need not rely on "MS sucks" to explain them. In fact, though I'm a fan of of both Linux, and Windows, hearing "Windows sucks" from the Linux crowd really turns me off where Linux is concerned, and the opposite is true of Linux bashers.

Just my $0.02


----------



## IBuyJunk

If Microsoft made really crappy operating systems, people would switch.

With the exception of some really proprietary stuff out there, most people would be able to switch to Linux with no problems.

You can access file shares, join it to a windows domain, open MS Office files ... almost everything works with Linux. With the more web based cloud computing stuff, Linux is even more viable.

Thing is, MS isn't as bad or crappy as everyone says. Otherwise the free operating systems would have taken over.

My main computer is running Ununtu. I can go days, weeks without needing windows. When I do, it's for a game then I go go back to ubntu


----------



## not available

yeah i will try linux. after all i think having preloaded driver databases and proven compatiblity is a downside? sure

linux has its uses, thats not a debate. BUT it is NOT for everyday users. WAAAAYY to much work involved


----------



## IBuyJunk

I think other than it being a different interface, it's easier. Installing most software is done from the central software repository (assuming Ubuntu or openSuse). Browser plugins are about the same for both.

For someone just touching a computer for the first time, I dare say that it would be easier.


----------



## [xPt]FLuX

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RickJS*


I second this motion, the only problem I've had with vista is theres this one small windows update that won't install and its annoying.


LOL me 2, that is absolute rubbish, i have used XP for ages, and never had any crashes, or maybe 1 or 2 that I Created...

u may like linux, but have u tried windows 7??
your whole post, replace "linux" with "Windows 7" - My Challenge 2 u


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *[xPt]FLuX* 
u may like linux, but have u tried windows 7??
your whole post, replace "linux" with "Windows 7" - My Challenge 2 u

I tried Windows 7. It was so bad I went back to Linux.


----------



## BiG O

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
I tried Windows 7. It was so bad I went back to Linux.

Ok, while I use both Linux and Windows, can you really say Windows 7 is that bad? It's not perfect, no OS is. Linux certainly isn't either. They both have their applications. I just find that a bit far is all.


----------



## error10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BiG O* 
Ok, while I use both Linux and Windows, can you really say Windows 7 is that bad? It's not perfect, no OS is. Linux certainly isn't either. They both have their applications. I just find that a bit far is all.

I don't think it's any more unfair than Windows users saying they tried Linux, had a bad experience and went back.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *[xPt]FLuX* 
LOL me 2, that is absolute rubbish, i have used XP for ages, and never had any crashes, or maybe 1 or 2 that I Created...

u may like linux, but have u tried windows 7??
your whole post, replace "linux" with "Windows 7" - My Challenge 2 u


Quote:


Originally Posted by *BiG O* 
Ok, while I use both Linux and Windows, can you really say Windows 7 is that bad? It's not perfect, no OS is. Linux certainly isn't either. They both have their applications. I just find that a bit far is all.

Yup, I've used Windows 7 for gaming, and while better than previous versions, it's still really annoying to use. So much you just can't do, and is made hard for you. No package manager is so annoying, having to update each piece of software individually is annoying at best, and system updates are not dealt with as well (and seem to require a lot of reboots).

There is little no no customisation beyond basic aesthetic stuff, and you tend to have to do things one way.

Overall, using Windows 7 as my primary desktop OS would drive me insane, it's not user-friendly, you can't customise it at all, and it's missing a load of features.

Plus it doesn't support all my hardware by default, where Linux just picks it all up by default (only thing was video drivers, which was one command - under windows it was a 250mb installer download then a reboot, etc...).


----------



## BiG O

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
I don't think it's any more unfair than Windows users saying they tried Linux, had a bad experience and went back.

I guess that's a fair statement


----------



## mmmkevinz

I have just recently finished my adventure in Ubuntu. I bought a book from microcenter, dual booted ubuntu with windows 7, and started learning. It was a great introduction to linux, but i am currently debating on what distro to switch to since Ubuntu is the only distro i've experienced. (the new GRUB is a pain in the ass to learn too)

All i have to say is that if linux supported my world of warcraft and age of conan i would not have even wasted my money on windows 7, learning linux is a must for anyone actually interested in computers. If you are just interested in typing papers for school and playing games, then windows is probably a better choice for you. I also use windows for the Slysoft's AnyDVD/CloneDVD and Arcsoft TotalMedia Theatre 3 since i upscale BluRays to my HD plasma and my computer has the 5.1 speakers. I really need to figure out how to get BluRay movies playing in Linux, and backing up DVDs/BDs in Linux...

I guess what i'm trying to get across is there isn't much of a point to argue the +'s and -'s of each OS. Some people prefer the convienience of windoze and others prefer the convienience of linux. But for gods sake, make video games Linux friendly already!!!!


----------



## Bonz(TM)

I'm still kinda n00b when it comes to Linux. I've dual booted Ubuntu back about a year ago and ran it as my primary OS for 2-3 months. I liked it, but had to go back to Windows for gaming.

I really haven't looked back since Windows 7 until last month. I bought a Linux VPS with CentOS 5.4 on it. I've been learning every day, and everything is command line. It's so exciting learning something new like this.

I think I may install a nice desktop version of Linux to dual boot in the future. I liked the Linux mint when I tried it in version 6. I've also liked Fedora as I know more about the Red Hat type more now than Debian.

Anybody know if TF2 will run under Wine in linux? Does anybody know if WHS backs up linux boxes?


----------



## Tator Tot

TF2 will run under WINE. More so with your setup.

As for WHS, you may have to do manual backup. I don't think WHS Supports linux boxes, but I could be wrong.


----------



## MrAMD_Fan

My main pc has been linux only for 2 straight years and it has been really good.... I don't game anymore (tired of throwing money into hardware and all my gaming friends moved away anyway







) I had been running mythtv (linux based tivo) for the last 5yrs until comcast ended the analog stuff for good...







Now i have dual monitors and an HD Homerun (hd streaming device) with mythtv on my main pc, so i can watch HD (local channels... chicago area so quite a few...) on one monitor, while surfin' etc on the other. I also run virtualbox with a virtual win xp just to run quicken and do online banking...(2 years of that as well). So for me it has been a great experience..... The good thing for me is the /home is on a seperate hard drive, so when i want to try a new version i just wipe the OS drive and reload and all my stuff is there on my /home already.... a few clicks for restricted drivers and load a few programs and i'm right back where i was....

Oh and $100+ for an OS.... not for me! I know some are going to say "Oh i got mine for $29 because i have a .edu...etc..." well that's nice... I don't.... i did get xp pro for like $29 when it first came out with a special deal from ms...


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Bonzâ„¢*


I'm still kinda n00b when it comes to Linux. I've dual booted Ubuntu back about a year ago and ran it as my primary OS for 2-3 months. I liked it, but had to go back to Windows for gaming.

I really haven't looked back since Windows 7 until last month. I bought a Linux VPS with CentOS 5.4 on it. I've been learning every day, and everything is command line. It's so exciting learning something new like this.

I think I may install a nice desktop version of Linux to dual boot in the future. I liked the Linux mint when I tried it in version 6. I've also liked Fedora as I know more about the Red Hat type more now than Debian.

Anybody know if TF2 will run under Wine in linux? Does anybody know if WHS backs up linux boxes?


I don't think WHS will, but if you are running Linux on one machine, why not use it for your server - it's definitely a tool well suited to the job.


----------



## MrAMD_Fan

I second the idea of linux for a server... i have one running on low end hardware as a file server... it is command line but you could just as easily run a regular desktop version and load samba to share out your folders. There are several backup programs as well....


----------



## Bonz(TM)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


I don't think WHS will, but if you are running Linux on one machine, why not use it for your server - it's definitely a tool well suited to the job.


I would, but there are a few reasons.

I have 2 Server 2008 licenses for free.
I have 1 WHS license for free.
I have 2 Win 7 licenses for free.

Also have 0 Linux boxes in the house and multiple laptops/desktops.

I just had my PERC 5 take a dump on me and I lost quite a bit of data. I want to go the WHS route to make my household a little easier with the backups and the storage pooling. I know there are Linux alternatives out there that do everything WHS does, but for the simplicity and support I'm gonna go with WHS, for now at least. Since I only have 1 license I will probably end up doing Linux somewhere as a server down the road.

I like Linux as an OS, and if I didn't have all these licenses, it would've been my main OS a long time ago. Don't get me wrong, I've grown to like Linux a lot. And like the free-ness of everything sooo much. It's just hard taking the road less taken.

** I initally had Linux on my file server with Samba. Shares worked great, it was everything I needed. I ran into a free .edu copy of Server 2008 and couldn't turn it down. Now that I have no more RAID5, I need some sort of easy, flexible redundancy. The kind WHS offers with folder duplication and DE.


----------



## dranas

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mmmkevinz*


I have just recently finished my adventure in Ubuntu. I bought a book from microcenter, dual booted ubuntu with windows 7, and started learning. It was a great introduction to linux, but i am currently debating on what distro to switch to since Ubuntu is the only distro i've experienced. (the new GRUB is a pain in the ass to learn too)

*All i have to say is that if linux supported my world of warcraft* and age of conan i would not have even wasted my money on windows 7, learning linux is a must for anyone actually interested in computers. If you are just interested in typing papers for school and playing games, then windows is probably a better choice for you. I also use windows for the Slysoft's AnyDVD/CloneDVD and Arcsoft TotalMedia Theatre 3 since i upscale BluRays to my HD plasma and my computer has the 5.1 speakers. I really need to figure out how to get BluRay movies playing in Linux, and backing up DVDs/BDs in Linux...

I guess what i'm trying to get across is there isn't much of a point to argue the +'s and -'s of each OS. Some people prefer the convienience of windoze and others prefer the convienience of linux. But for gods sake, make video games Linux friendly already!!!!



i used to run wow on linux. It ran fine using WINE, just add this to your config.*** file
SET gxApi "opengl"
SET ffxDeath "0"
SET ffxGlow "0"
SET SoundOutputSystem "1"
SET SoundBufferSize "150"

and you might have to add a registry key to wine (found this off a wow on linux guide, i personally didnt have to add that when i ran it)

a. Find this key HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\Wine\\
b. Highlight the wine folder in the left hand pane by clicking left on it. The icon should change to an open folder
c. Right-click on the wine folder and select [NEW] then [KEY]
d. Replace the text New Key #1 with OpenGL
e. Right-click in the right hand pane and select [NEW] then [String Value]
f. Replace New Value #1 with DisabledExtensions (Notice it's case sensitive!)
g. Then double click anywhere on the line, a dialog box will open.
h. In the value field type GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object


----------



## error10

Yeah, WoW is virtually flawless in Linux. With later releases of Wine you really don't have to do much of anything (unless you're installing from the DVD, where you'll need one terminal command). All I had to do was start it the very first time with the -opengl option on the command line. After that it's just click the icon and go.

Interestingly, I got HIGHER framerates on WoW in Linux as opposed to Windows, and the game felt slightly more realistic.

The thing that NEVER worked right was the Curse client, and you can't believe how much I cursed about that.


----------



## trasixes

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lattyware* 
Plus it doesn't support all my hardware by default, where Linux just picks it all up by default (only thing was video drivers, which was one command - under windows it was a 250mb installer download then a reboot, etc...).

Eh?! Your case must be the exception to the rule! Unless it's a very common or mainstream device, Linux never just works for me. 250mb video driver download? Not calling BS, but this is one of those must-see-to-believe moments. Link me?


----------



## trasixes

Quote:


Originally Posted by *error10* 
Yeah, WoW is virtually flawless in Linux. With later releases of Wine you really don't have to do much of anything (unless you're installing from the DVD, where you'll need one terminal command). All I had to do was start it the very first time with the -opengl option on the command line. After that it's just click the icon and go.

Interestingly, I got HIGHER framerates on WoW in Linux as opposed to Windows, and the game felt slightly more realistic.

The thing that NEVER worked right was the Curse client, and you can't believe how much I cursed about that.

Virtually flawless... is that akin to barely dead?


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

The main issue, and in fact I only have had three, is that I occassionally get UNIX1 deciding that it wants to swap the NIC that doesn't work...

Sometimes it will refuse to work on NIC1 (onboard) but will work fine with the PCI card NIC2, and other times it is the other way around...

The main way that I get to find that out is when I use FahMon to check my PPD output ([email protected]) and see that it can't communicate with it.

The only other issues I've had are with UNIX2, where it will allow me to VNC onto it, but then won't keep the screen updated with what is happening...and that it doesn't seem to accept the (onboard) graphics can handle anything other than the bare minimum - meaning that I often get it where I can't click to apply something as the "OK" button is off the bottom of the screen... If it wasn't for the fact that it doesn't seem to allow you to move the top of a window off the top of the page that would almost be a 'non-issue' for me...


----------



## mattliston

250 megabyte video drivers? bull**** without link/evidence


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *trasixes*


Virtually flawless... is that akin to barely dead?










No, it's more like when the other side gets Tenacity in WG and you kick their







anyway.







Or like a Defias mob in Elwynn trying to beat down my level 80 mage and one-shotting themselves on my molten armor.

I quit before 3.3 came out but I can tell you my rig easily handled everything up to and including the new Ony 25. And that was just, well, clicking the icon on the desktop to start it up.

I should also note that I routinely had over 100MB of addon memory used, even during those 25 mans, which completely blew everyone's mind. It was a guild record, at least, if not a server record.









This is part of the reason why I quit:


----------



## ohabu

Fun challenge







I actually switched a few years back, loved it, but could not defend all the time I spent just messing around with it, so I bough a macbook last summer. Then I installed elive on in. So in the end I have a $1000 laptop with a debian-based linux distro and enlightenment wm







But Elive is just so loveable..

(gotta admit I still have osx installed, for photoshop)


----------



## enorbet2

The challenge just got easier and more compelling

*Must See*

http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7700/1.html


----------



## Mawn

I haven't used linux for the past year or so, but I feel I have reasonable rights to participate in discussion here.

I was what many consider an advanced user, I used gentoo, which was at the time one of the least user friendly distros but I loved it because it was incredibly powerful and customizable. I didn't frown on Ubuntu, I started there myself, and if people choose to stay with that distro or not thats their deal. I wrote I think 3 or 4 guides on Ubuntu on various topics such as an introduction to the command line for beginners and a complete guide to customization.

I really strongly believed in the open source initiative (Free Open Source Software) but only ever converted 1 person to linux. He is now on the official Ubuntu team in bug removal (last I heard anyway) and got so in to it he even got an @ubuntu.org email address.

My point being that I believe Linux is a wonderful OS for many reasons, among them my favorites were the absence of viruses, complete customization and control, compiz (I'm a sucker for eye candy







), themes and the package management. One of the great things about the latter is that your packages (programs) all check for updates from one location, so you don't get screwed with a 10 minute update when you open the program you want to use.

In the end though, there were a few reasons, big and small, why I left Linux.
In order of importance to me:

I missed gaming. A lot. The open source stuff based on Q3 just doesn't cut it
Lack of support for photoshop (gimp is good, but it can't compare)
Pretty limited iPod support (for itouch and iPhone at least)
lack of hardware support/tons of work to set up extra mouse and keyboard buttons
recycle bin has no restore function (files don't return to original place, you have to move them) it's not a huge deal, but it gets annoying.
I'd also like to point out that while many linux distros have a 6 month release cycle, the difference between any 2 versions is pretty minimal compared to changes between windows versions. And the newest hardware is usually not supported well (if at all) in Linux.

Thats my opinion on Linux, for anyone who cares. Enjoy









Also see http://makethemove.net/


----------



## TFB

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Mawn*


In the end though, there were a few reasons, big and small, why I left Linux.
In order of importance to me:

I missed gaming. A lot. The open source stuff based on Q3 just doesn't cut it
Lack of support for photoshop (gimp is good, but it can't compare)
Pretty limited iPod support (for itouch and iPhone at least)
lack of hardware support/tons of work to set up extra mouse and keyboard buttons
recycle bin has no restore function (files don't return to original place, you have to move them) it's not a huge deal, but it gets annoying.
I'd also like to point out that while many linux distros have a 6 month release cycle, the difference between any 2 versions is pretty minimal compared to changes between windows versions. And the newest hardware is usually not supported well (if at all) in Linux.

Thats my opinion on Linux, for anyone who cares. Enjoy










We've come a long way with Ubuntu.

Gaming still isn't covered completely. This is not Linux's fault though.

Microsoft wants DirectX. MS has the biggest market so developers kowtow to Microsoft. Users buy the games and have to use Microsoft. Microsoft has the biggest market... It's all circular. By going back to Windows, you are caving and giving MS exactly what they want. You are giving them leverage to bully developers around. If more users took a stand, developers could go cross-platform using the opengl API.

Photoshop may never see Linux. It's hard enough to get Adobe to make a version of flash on par with Windows.

From what I hear, iPod touch and iPhone will be supported in Ubuntu 10.04. I don't use those so I couldn't tell you.

Most keyboards and mice are set up pretty well. I only have a standard keyboard so I can't vouch for that, but I have a 9 button Logitech mouse. All buttons and scroll wheels are functional.

Trashbin works well on Ubuntu 9.10. You can restore stuff. Plus, with nautilus actions, you can put custom commands in there.

So yeah, there have been a lot of improvements in the past year it looks like.


----------



## PsikyoJebus

Audio over HDMI with ATI cards still seems to be an issue with linux. I've tried many distros with no luck. The other thing that gets me is the lack of simple multiple monitor support, specifically when the two monitors are of different resolutions (as is likely in the common case when you want to use a projector). For some presentations in school, I find myself having to move my presentation files to the windows folder and run the presentation off Windows, since it's easy to configure multiple monitors.


----------



## comawhite

I agree TFB. The only reason there is no games for Linux is because Microsoft has them locked in with DirectX and Microsoft knows that if it was portable, no one would really be using Windows. But don't get me wrong, I use all 3 OS's. If you really need MS specific apps just use VirtualBox install the VirtualBox guest additions disc and use seamless mode. Seamless mode make it's integrate really in to the Linux desktop perce. Now you can use every Windows apps you want (depending on how much RAM you have). If you need to share a folder or files just set up a sharing folder and you are good to go.

Games yeah it's best basically just to reboot in to Windows. But everything else is just FUD. Most if not almost all on this site uses 4GB + ram so it should not heard to run seamless mode if WINE doesn't support it well.


----------



## enorbet2

*Response T0 MAWN*

(Thanks for such a reasonably presented post)

< 1. I missed gaming. A lot. The open source stuff based on Q3 just doesn't cut it >

IMHO This is presently the strongest problem in Linux even though I do not agree that older games don't cut it (Doom and Doom 2, TuxRacer and MAME Arcade games are enjoyed in a growing market of handhelds so I don't see why they're utter failures on full sized PCs and laptops) but all it takes to improve gaming is for more people to take the challenge. Presently Windows has a 94% (THAT'S NINETY-FOUR PERCENT!!) market share while Mac accounts for a little over 4% and Linux 0.69% (numbers from March ComputerPowerUser magazine) Ubuntus success coupled with Vistas disaster has increased Mac and Linux to these levels. My guess is that it's going to take 5 - 7 years for Linux to be sufficiently commercially viable to support new game releases even though theoretically it should be relatively easy for someone familiar with both Mac and Linux to port those that run on Mac to Linux. However Apple is even tighter than MS in most DRM cases.

< 2. Lack of support for photoshop (gimp is good, but it can't compare) >

Photoshop CS2 runs flawlessly in current WINE. Picasa is availabe in native Linux code. It might be more instructive to mention what features people think they lack in those plus GIMP.

< 3. Pretty limited iPod support (for itouch and iPhone at least) >

I can't comment here as I don't have either byt my guess is support will increase over time.

< 4. lack of hardware support/tons of work to set up extra mouse and keyboard buttons >

This too is improving and is not bad now if you google around (mice are easy). Community support is excellent.

< 5. recycle bin has no restore function (files don't return to original place, you have to move them) it's not a huge deal, but it gets annoying. >

Can you explain why this is even annoying? With modern hard drive size why are you deleting questionable files? or not backing up your system?

BTW regarding new hardware Linux supported 64 bit processors and over 1GB ram years before Windows did... just two examples. Six years ago I installed Xandros Linux on a box that was in a Windows Workgroup and on the very first hard drive boot the network connected printer was available and working, automatically. Linux has only gotten better since then.

*To PsikyoJebus*

If you fire up "nvsettings" you will find dual monitors easy. I have run a Viewsonic DLP projector for years in numerous flavors of Linux. No sweat. I also have one box running through my HDTV 16 x 9 Television through a switch with zero problems and easy setup.


----------



## shadowknife392

After reading it for 5 minutes I immediately found it tedious. I felt pretty confused. Look at this image:


----------



## mattliston

Lolz


----------



## newphase

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


We've come a long way with Ubuntu Linux.

Gaming still isn't covered completely. This is not Linux's fault though.


Agreed... that is why the ONLY time I boot into W7 is for games







; Everything else is done in slacky.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


If more users took a stand, developers could go cross-platform using the opengl API.


Agreed

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


Photoshop may never see Linux. It's hard enough to get Adobe to make a version of flash on par with Windows.


Personally I couldn't care less about Photo$hop - but 64 bit flash WAS INDEED out for *nix before windows.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


So yeah, there have been a lot of improvements in the past year *in linux generally, and not just *untu *it looks like.


----------



## zxo0oxz

I'm running 10.04 alpha on my laptop...There is a new update like every hour.


----------



## enorbet2

I decided to post this here, in the challenge room, because it involves a secondary challenge supporting the first and because so many complain about the lack of games. Things are indeed in flux as Xbox becomes more important to MS and the handheld market is set to explode. Even Intel is beginning to lean away from the traditional desktop. But changes directly affecting Linux gaming are in the works according to Linux Magazine
here:

http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7726/1.html

Enjoy, and join in please
Jimmy


----------



## 88Nitro

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tUDJ* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dezixn*
Linux is awesome.

I just wish I could use it. No support for most games = a no go
Same. If it supported games I would use it 24/7.

.Same. *If it supported games* I would use it 24/7.
.

3rded, i have been using linux for atleast a year now (always with Windows 7 Dual-boot,(yeah that's right *i accepted your challenge*)) and to be honest, The Linux (or unix-like) Family of OS's are Great! they get your work, reascerh, and editing done with all free software and a customiziable envionrment. Ubuntu is a sleek fast, amazing OS that can be customized to perform for both the Home and Office enviornment.

... and i havent just tried ubuntu I also Tried:
-Fedora (about 2 months,it was ok, reminded me of ubuntu)
-OpenSuse (GreaT! *Everything is customiziable*)
-KDE, and Kubuntu (Both are amazing, like i said before, *everything is customizable* and the 3-D Effects are really useful when your desktop needs more realestate)
*(also i tried Enlightment and Xfce Desktop Enviornments)

But like all software, The Linux OS's have their Pros/cons the things that really annoyed me about linux were

#1- No *Full* Support for Games, or Dx11
One of the best things i do on my PC is Gaming, weather it be online, single player or with mods, or even emulators It's the Reason i bought a Gaming PC! when running linux, you have to either run the Game under Wine (and hope it works..) or swich to Windows to get it to. This is my biggest frustration with linux

#2- No-so easy software installs
One of the main things about use of software is it's ease of use, in linux, often it is easy to install or unstall programs with the use of the package manager, but when this is not available, the work-around requires a bit of research.

overall i like linux ALOT. But it has so much potential to be better...
good thing most of them are open source


----------



## TFB

The whole reason Linux doesn't play games is because of Microsoft pushing DirectX! Then when you realize Linux doesn't play games, you go right back to Windows. Where is the Game Developer's motivation to use OpenGL? They don't care what OS you use.

Stick with Linux. Write to Game Devs and explain you want OpenGL support and Linux ports.

You can't expect them to change if you don't give them a reason to change.


----------



## Xaero252

I "took" your challenge (have run linux since before I joined OCN and before anybody asked me to.) And I fully support linux now, its the best decision I've ever made.
I'm mainly posting to mention some great things happening in the linux community that adress issues people have had in this thread.
VMWare's (as well as KVM/Qemu/VirtualBox) are working on providing direct hardware abstraction via intels VT-d technology. VMWare's solution should allow harnessing an OpenCL/OpenMM GPU to process directX in a virtual machine. the Qemu/VB/KVM solution will allow a virtual machine to utilize an uninitialized GPU for graphics processing, but will require (for the time being) a second display (or just a second input) to be used.
Currently, you can provide semi-direct access to many devices with a Linux Host and a Windows Guest in Qemu/KVM, although it is complicated and buggy.
Another note to touch on, somebody mentioned porting mac versions of games to linux. This is unnecesary, MacOSX is Unix all the same, all thats required is to implement the dependencies to satisfy the game's runtime executeable. Cocoa is partially supported because it is based on GNUStep, and most of the features were already available. A project "cocotron" is also capable of bringing cocoa to Linux and Windows and is being actively developed. But Cocoa isn't everything there is to mac... Its a pretty big step in the right direction, but we are far from seeing mac games working on linux.


----------



## chef098

I am in the same boat of "I cannot play my games in linux." The way things are right now I come home to my PC to play games. I have a work computer that I only use for work. So why would I switch to Linux if I only use it to do basic browsing and play video games.

I understand peoples arguments of "we cannot expect games on anything else if we don't use Linux." This is true and I would love to see open GL become the standard. It would be great for more than just Linux, but all PC gamers.


----------



## TFB

So, you're just going to sit on your hands and wait for other people to get devs to make games for Linux?

The more people who use Linux, the more incentive Devs have to use cross platform APIs. That's pretty much it.


----------



## Dragonii

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


So, you're just going to sit on your hands and wait for other people to get devs to make games for Linux?

The more people who use Linux, the more incentive Devs have to use cross platform APIs. That's pretty much it.


I see your point, but Linux becoming mainstream will never happen. And if it isn't mainstream there will be no real support from developers for it.

They have tried it in the past, Walmart had a deal with (I believe it was) Emachine several years ago to roll out machines with "Lindows" on them. Fell flat.
Netbooks tried Linux when they first hit the market, failed there too. Now netbooks are rolling out with Windows 7 Starter.

Problem is that novice users can't figure out Linux, and never will, they can barely handle Windows. And let's face it, all gamers and/or serious PC users start somewhere. And that somewhere is being a novice. Game developers don't care about the few that are experienced enough to use Linux, they care about the guy that spend a butt-load on building his gaming rig and they care about the 16 year old that just got a new computer Christmas. That 16 year old can be sucked in and turned into the guy that just spent a butt-load on a new gaming rig very easily. The 16 year old with a new computer that mom and dad bought at Bestbuy will always out number the guys that have experience and have taken the time to learn Linux. So he is the highest priority. Guess what OS he is using.

I have tried Linux, several times, different versions. But in the end, all six of the machines in my house are running Windows 7. I use my machines for surfing the internet, playing a few light games, movies (Netflix (which I never could get to work on Linux) DVD, Blu Ray, Hulu, torrents etc.), photo editing (heavy Photoshop use) and much more. Windows has not let me down. I know it isn't "cool" to side with big bad M$, but if it works, it works.

As for that Windows crashing thing that I keep hearing about, if you have a problem with Windows crashing all the time, you are doing something wrong.
The only Windows machine that I have ever had that gave me problems with crashing is my work machine, and it only started doing it after I upgraded it to Windows 7. Problem was the old (very old) video card that was not compatible. I changed the card and it has not given any trouble at all. As a matter of fact, I think it has been about three weeks since this machine was last rebooted.
Speaking of, I have windows machines that are functioning as file servers here at the office running XP that have not been rebooted or shut down in years. Years, yes, years. Non stop, running strong.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chef098* 
I am in the same boat of "I cannot play my games in linux." The way things are right now I come home to my PC to play games. I have a work computer that I only use for work. So why would I switch to Linux if I only use it to do basic browsing and play video games.

I understand peoples arguments of "we cannot expect games on anything else if we don't use Linux." This is true and I would love to see open GL become the standard. It would be great for more than just Linux, but all PC gamers.

Lattyware's challenge is to TRY Linux, not necessarily switch to it. Linux only has less than 10% of Mac's market share and less than 1% of Windows, yet M$ sees it as a bigger threat than Mac, or so Steve "Monkey Boy" Ballmer says. Bottom line, 0.69 % is still a huge milestone growth factor from only a year ago. The faster it grows, the better Windows and Mac has to be. Win-Win.

So aside from the fact that many games that do play on Linux are really fun (I defy you to survive any level on Doom2 on the "Nightmare" setting or play "Extreme Tux Racer" only once, let alone "Quake Live") given that

1) It is easy to see that it is in M$'s vested interest to give users/customers the mushroom treatment (keep dumb, in the dark, and fed s**t)

2) DX 10, let alone DX 11, are at my count required for only a handful of games, not a good trend for Direct X (devs balking? unnecessary "innovation"? all for proprietary's sake?)

3) XBox and handhelds are fast becoming THE priority for M$ gaming

It seems to me that sooner or later Windows will go far enough to upset you enough to want to bail or gaming as a whole will become so marginalized on PC, compared to consoles, that it would be wise to have an alternative, an escape plan, in your pocket.

Why not be a part of the solution rather than the problem, all the while protecting your interests?


----------



## Dragonii

3) XBox and handhelds are fast becoming THE priority for M$ gaming

Amen.


----------



## chef098

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Lattyware's challenge is to TRY Linux, not necessarily switch to it. Linux only has less than 10% of Mac's market share and less than 1% of Windows, yet M$ sees it as a bigger threat than Mac, or so Steve "Monkey Boy" Ballmer says. Bottom line, 0.69 % is still a huge milestone growth factor from only a year ago. The faster it grows, the better Windows and Mac has to be. Win-Win.

So aside from the fact that many games that do play on Linux are really fun (I defy you to survive any level on Doom2 on the "Nightmare" setting or play "Extreme Tux Racer" only once, let alone "Quake Live") given that

1) It is easy to see that it is in M$'s vested interest to give users/customers the mushroom treatment (keep dumb, in the dark, and fed s**t)

2) DX 10, let alone DX 11, are at my count required for only a handful of games, not a good trend for Direct X (devs balking? unnecessary "innovation"? all for proprietary's sake?)

3) XBox and handhelds are fast becoming THE priority for M$ gaming

It seems to me that sooner or later Windows will go far enough to upset you enough to want to bail or gaming as a whole will become so marginalized on PC, compared to consoles, that it would be wise to have an alternative, an escape plan, in your pocket.

Why not be a part of the solution rather than the problem, all the while protecting your interests?


I understand he is just saying give linux a try. I have and I will keep on playing with Linux because some of the things linux has done is amazing. I was targeting those who said Linux can be a viable platform for games in the future. I agree that they can be, but until Microsoft does something so horrid to lose another 30 percent of the market share this wont happen. The only way I see something like this happening is if OpenGL, not linux, becomes more viable as a way to develop games over DirectX. Based off of DX10 and DX11 it might be something that could happen. If developers dont see enough innovation coming from Direct X they might make it happen on their own.


----------



## enorbet2

It's not going to require anywhere close to 30%

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chef098* 
<snip> I agree that they can be, but until Microsoft does something so horrid to lose another 30 percent of the market share this wont happen. The only way I see something like this happening is if OpenGL, not linux, becomes more viable as a way to develop games over DirectX. Based off of DX10 and DX11 it might be something that could happen. If developers dont see enough innovation coming from Direct X they might make it happen on their own.

I know it can be a pita to follow links and read an entire article so I'll just paste some relevant quotes from a Linux Magazine article I recently linked.

[/QUOTE]FROM LINUX MAG

Gaming company Wolfire has a great article on why they use OpenGL instead of DirectX (and why other companies should too). They write:

â€œGiven that OpenGL has less vendor support, is no longer used in games, is being actively attacked by Microsoft, and has no marketing momentum, why should we still use it? Wouldnâ€™t it be more profitable to ditch it and use DirectX like everyone else? No, because in reality, OpenGL is more powerful than DirectX, supports more platforms, and is essential for the future of gamesâ€¦ if you use OpenGL, you get faster and more powerful graphics features than DirectX 11, and you get them on all versions of Windows, Mac and Linux, as well as the PS3, Wii, PSP, DS, and iPhone. You also get these features in the rapidly-developing WebGL standard, which may become the foundation for the next generation of browser games.â€

Sign of things to come?

There are signs that things are starting to change, however. Recently, gaming company Unknown Worlds Entertainment discussed plans for a native Linux version of their Spark engine. Technical Director Max McGuire wrote:

â€œCurrently our engine and tools only work on Windows, and that will be the only platform Natural Selection 2 will be available on at release. However, most of the engine is not platform specific. The largest Windows-specific piece is the low level rendering code which is built on Direct3D. In the interest of having our engine run on Linux and OS X someday, this low level rendering code is wrapped up so that itâ€™s mostly separate from the rest of the engine. With a small amount of effort, we can swap out this piece with an OpenGL implementation that will work on Linux and OS X. All of our tools are built using the cross-platform wxWidgets framework, so once we get the engine working on another platform, bringing the tools over wonâ€™t be too much work.â€

That would be a great thing indeed. Wolfire has already released one game for Linux called Lugaru, with its sequel Overgrowth currently in Alpha stage of development.

More recently, Valve announced that it would be releasing Mac versions of their games, including the popular Steam game deliver system. This will also include their proprietary gaming engine, ironically named Source.

They are able to do this easily, because they made the decision to support OpenGL as well as DirectX in their engine.

Director of development John Cook said that Valve will be treating the Mac as a tier-1 platform, with all future games released at the same time for all supported platforms. Unfortunately, this does not yet include Linux. What this means though, is that with just 5% market share Mac is becoming a popular enough platform for gaming companies to support it. If the marketshare of Linux warranted the move, it would be relatively simple for a company such as Valve to release their games for Linux also. With companies porting their engines to OpenGL and games to a Unix operating system, half of the battle is already won for Linux. What remains is that ever elusive market share.
[/QUOTE]

Although nobody can argue with the fact that DX 9 was and still is huge, DX 10 did little and has been used only sparingly by dame devs and yet already DX 11 is out. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

There are too many billions of dollars at stake in the gaming market for companies to not see the writing on the wall that Microsoft is planning to take over that market too just like they have done with so many others. If they wish to survive they can't let that happen.

Seriously, given a choice would you rather be a sheep or a wolf?

PS I really must learn how to create quotes from other sources

Jimmy


----------



## TFB

Nicely written.

Remove the slash in front of the first [/QUOTE]


----------



## Ricklez420

wayyy too long for me to read right now. i'll have to bookmark this page for a different day.


----------



## chef098

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


It's not going to require anywhere close to 30%

I know it can be a pita to follow links and read an entire article so I'll just paste some relevant quotes from a Linux Magazine article I recently linked.

FROM LINUX MAG

Gaming company Wolfire has a great article on why they use OpenGL instead of DirectX (and why other companies should too). They write:

â€œGiven that OpenGL has less vendor support, is no longer used in games, is being actively attacked by Microsoft, and has no marketing momentum, why should we still use it? Wouldnâ€™t it be more profitable to ditch it and use DirectX like everyone else? No, because in reality, OpenGL is more powerful than DirectX, supports more platforms, and is essential for the future of gamesâ€¦ if you use OpenGL, you get faster and more powerful graphics features than DirectX 11, and you get them on all versions of Windows, Mac and Linux, as well as the PS3, Wii, PSP, DS, and iPhone. You also get these features in the rapidly-developing WebGL standard, which may become the foundation for the next generation of browser games.â€

Sign of things to come?

There are signs that things are starting to change, however. Recently, gaming company Unknown Worlds Entertainment discussed plans for a native Linux version of their Spark engine. Technical Director Max McGuire wrote:

â€œCurrently our engine and tools only work on Windows, and that will be the only platform Natural Selection 2 will be available on at release. However, most of the engine is not platform specific. The largest Windows-specific piece is the low level rendering code which is built on Direct3D. In the interest of having our engine run on Linux and OS X someday, this low level rendering code is wrapped up so that itâ€™s mostly separate from the rest of the engine. With a small amount of effort, we can swap out this piece with an OpenGL implementation that will work on Linux and OS X. All of our tools are built using the cross-platform wxWidgets framework, so once we get the engine working on another platform, bringing the tools over wonâ€™t be too much work.â€

That would be a great thing indeed. Wolfire has already released one game for Linux called Lugaru, with its sequel Overgrowth currently in Alpha stage of development.

More recently, Valve announced that it would be releasing Mac versions of their games, including the popular Steam game deliver system. This will also include their proprietary gaming engine, ironically named Source.

They are able to do this easily, because they made the decision to support OpenGL as well as DirectX in their engine.

Director of development John Cook said that Valve will be treating the Mac as a tier-1 platform, with all future games released at the same time for all supported platforms. Unfortunately, this does not yet include Linux. What this means though, is that with just 5% market share Mac is becoming a popular enough platform for gaming companies to support it. If the marketshare of Linux warranted the move, it would be relatively simple for a company such as Valve to release their games for Linux also. With companies porting their engines to OpenGL and games to a Unix operating system, half of the battle is already won for Linux. What remains is that ever elusive market share.

Although nobody can argue with the fact that DX 9 was and still is huge, DX 10 did little and has been used only sparingly by dame devs and yet already DX 11 is out. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

There are too many billions of dollars at stake in the gaming market for companies to not see the writing on the wall that Microsoft is planning to take over that market too just like they have done with so many others. If they wish to survive they can't let that happen.

Seriously, given a choice would you rather be a sheep or a wolf?

PS I really must learn how to create quotes from other sources

Jimmy


Wow great article! +Rep! OpenGL I think will start to make a comeback. I totally forgot about Valve's announcement and how that could have a big effect on the move to PC games being multi platform. Valve mentioned in one press release that they currently have a system where they check in code and it is automatically compiled for both Mac and Windows. Granted there is probably bug fixing they have to perform specific for each platform, but imagine that being the case for Linux as well! I honestly am excited for all these developments in OpenGL because open source always produces very interesting results where proprietary lacks. I am really glad that Unknownworlds was thrown in there. I love their games and what they are doing as a business model. Their game I think is going to be big and if it makes it to linux natively that will be really exciting.


----------



## MistaBernie

I've been interested in getting to know Linux better since I've started folding -bigadv, but my thing is pretty much some of the points that are echoed here:

Win7 does everything that I need it to do (heck, even Vista did) and it does it pretty much seamlessly. Up until I started OC'ing this machine, I'd _never_ gotten a BSOD in Windows Vista or 7, and I've never had problems with either OS (including the 'memory hog' issues that Vista was laced with early in its release on a store built PoS computer







) - but beyond that, it really comes down to an issue of _time_ and resources.

I would really like to get to know Linux, but it's not feasible in the foreseeable future due to my job and wedding (shortly after which, likely parenthood), and I think the most effective way for me to learn Linux would be in a structured classroom environment.. (I haven't taught myself how to do stuff - well, except overclocking, heh - in quite a while), and I wouldnt want to be a burden to the OCN community more than I already am (heh) with question about Linux.

Long story short (too late!) In order to effectively learn Linux, I'd basically need to take a class, or have some pretty serious resources available to me to do so, but I'd be willing to try. Can anyone recommend a _good_ book (or other similar resource) for learning Linux?

Thanks!


----------



## click here

When Linux runs PS, 3dsmax and Steam natively THEN I'll switch.


----------



## enorbet2

MistaBernie, and other hesitant beginners (kinda like beta testers)

While a person misses out on much of the more powerful parts of Linux if you don't learn commands, recent distros like Ubuntu have made trying Linux painless and easy (read - "more like windows"). It should be obvious that if one makes it just like windows, it will be just as limited. However it does make testing easy.

Add to that a concept foreign to windoze users other than those few who are hip to BartPE and miniXP, bootable CDs.

Windows based Live CDs are extremely limited because they all employ the Pre Install Environment which is even more limited than Safe Mode. Linux, OTOH, being Open Source has no such proprietary concerns and since the kernel is loaded to an automatically built ramdrive, not only is the system complete, it is rather snappy

So don;t worry about how much time it will take because it is now so easy it will take very little and only as much as you desire to learn. The basics are a no brainer.

The Linux community in general doesn't see questions as a burden since one can choose not to answer. It's voluntary and as can be seen here, most enjoy the investment in the future of computing.

All that aside though, here's one answer to your direct question regarding books.

http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596804855/

That one is specific to Ubuntu but should apply to most other debian based distros including it's offshoots. For Windows users I recommend Kubuntu because the KDE desktop is more like the Windows interface

Just try a LiveCD, no install, no commitment necessary.
example here:

http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download

Regards
Jimmy


----------



## 88Nitro

Quote:



Originally Posted by *MistaBernie*


I've been interested in getting to know Linux better since I've started folding -bigadv, but my thing is pretty much some of the points that are echoed here:

Win7 does everything that I need it to do (heck, even Vista did) and it does it pretty much seamlessly. Up until I started OC'ing this machine, I'd _never_ gotten a BSOD in Windows Vista or 7, and I've never had problems with either OS (including the 'memory hog' issues that Vista was laced with early in its release on a store built PoS computer







) - but beyond that, it really comes down to an issue of _time_ and resources.

I would really like to get to know Linux, but it's not feasible in the foreseeable future due to my job and wedding (shortly after which, likely parenthood), and I think the most effective way for me to learn Linux would be in a structured classroom environment.. (I haven't taught myself how to do stuff - well, except overclocking, heh - in quite a while), and I wouldnt want to be a burden to the OCN community more than I already am (heh) with question about Linux.

Long story short (too late!) In order to effectively learn Linux, I'd basically need to take a class, or have some pretty serious resources available to me to do so, but I'd be willing to try. Can anyone recommend a _good_ book (or other similar resource) for learning Linux?

Thanks!










You can Always install a program like Sun Virtualbox or VM Ware to try out linux (on windows) without actually installing it on your system

i would actually reccomend sun virtualbox, it has many features that you can control about the guest OS, plus it does not require as much setup as 
VM Ware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


The whole reason Linux doesn't play games is because of Microsoft pushing DirectX! Then when you realize Linux doesn't play games, you go right back to Windows. Where is the Game Developer's motivation to use OpenGL?


Exactly, it would be useful if Game developers who are planning to Realease on the PC Actually wrote each game using OpenGL, using the Render Techniques that the earlier Lunix MAG article says makes OpenGL Look like DirectX11.










.....but looking at last month's OS Market Share, I'm sure Game devs don't really care about using OpenGL, Sadly....


----------



## MistaBernie

Quote:



Originally Posted by *88Nitro*


You can Always install a program like Sun Virtualbox or VM Ware to try out linux (on windows) without actually installing it on your system

i would actually reccomend sun virtualbox, it has many features that you can control about the guest OS, plus it does not require as much setup as 
VM Ware


That's the cool part, I already have VMWare installed for Linux for folding.. It's just that I'm ONLY using it for folding. I have no control over the machine really, it's setup to basically be ready to go once it's booted (and your client is configured, which is easily done by the web utility).

That being said, what you (and Enorbet2, thanks so much btw!) have added makes it much more feasible for me to take on the task of taking the challenge at some point - possibly even relatively soon!

Thanks again!









-MB


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz

I forgot to mention that Live (bootable) CDs have numerous uses beyond just trying out Linux. Puppy Linux, as one example, comes with GParted a sort of PQ_Magic partitioning clone. Others come with testing and benchmark tools and a few have Windows Password changing tools, very usefull if you forget Administrator password. Audio/Video editing tools are on some others.

I certainly don't know them all but Google reveals all if you have a specific need.

Here's a list

http://www.livecdlist.com/


----------



## thenailedone

Quote:



Originally Posted by *MistaBernie*


That's the cool part, I already have VMWare installed for Linux for folding.. It's just that I'm ONLY using it for folding. I have no control over the machine really, it's setup to basically be ready to go once it's booted (and your client is configured, which is easily done by the web utility).

That being said, what you (and Enorbet2, thanks so much btw!) have added makes it much more feasible for me to take on the task of taking the challenge at some point - possibly even relatively soon!

Thanks again!









-MB


You can run another instance of Linux in a seperate virtual environment AFAIK so you can still give it a go










However why should you? If you are getting all you need OS wise from Windows stick to it... At the end of the day the OS is the thing that makes it possible for you to run applications and get the most out of your hardware, to be productive or have fun etc. If you are getting that then stick to it... if not try the alternative...

Cheers


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thenailedone*


You can run another instance of Linux in a seperate virtual environment AFAIK so you can still give it a go







However why should you? If you are getting all you need OS wise from Windows stick to it... At the end of the day the OS is the thing that makes it possible for you to run applications and get the most out of your hardware, to be productive or have fun etc. If you are getting that then stick to it... if not try the alternative...

Cheers


Why not try something new? Not trying something simply because what you have works is the first step in a boring life.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to build my i7 as a K/Ubuntu box and maybe have a W7 VM within it....

I mean, I've got several other computers at home, running different versions of M$ (from a LT on W95 to a multiboot XP/Fista/W7 box, albeit I need to re-install that W7 instance) OSs, and while I have currently got 2 Ubuntu boxes (though one is currently powered off) I haven't had a chance to get to grips with them...

I get to play with M$ all day at work too, I might just go for Kubuntu (as it seems that would instantly work with my AD at home) as then I wouldn't need to faff about setting up permissions and the like - although it might be interesting seeing how my KIX scripts work..























If I don't like it, then I'll just go back to the original plan of W7 host and a K/Ubuntu VM to do my -bigadv Folding...


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
I suppose this would be OT if it weren't for the fact that gaming issues are by far the most common reason that peeps disregard taking the challenge.

So first it might be best if people actually see some games running on Linux. Here

  
 YouTube- Linux Games : Enemy Territory : Quake Wars  



 
 is an example of Enemy Territory Quake Wars (worth seeing despite being over 1 year old) and you can see more games under relevant videos. I chose this one because anyone can download the free V2 Demo here

ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/etqw/

If you back up to the higher directory there's a lot more

anyway.... worth checking out at the very least the YouTube clips.

Enjoy
Jimmy


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Ok, now I'm getting a little confused....

One set of ppl tell me that I _have_ to use the VM Linux OS that is set up purely to Fold, and I've heard elsewhere that I could just run Folding 'natively' within Linux...

Hope someone can help and/or point me in the direction of which is the actual truth in the matter - my preference would currently be to go with Linux as the main OS, -bigadv SMP Folding on the i7 CPU, and then maybe have a W7 VM within it for me to 'fiddle with' if/as/when I felt like it...


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man*


Ok, now I'm getting a little confused....

One set of ppl tell me that I _have_ to use the VM Linux OS that is set up purely to Fold, and I've heard elsewhere that I could just run Folding 'natively' within Linux...

Hope someone can help and/or point me in the direction of which is the actual truth in the matter - my preference would currently be to go with Linux as the main OS, -bigadv SMP Folding on the i7 CPU, and then maybe have a W7 VM within it for me to 'fiddle with' if/as/when I felt like it...


VM is only if you are running a Windows host, as the Linux client performs better. If you are running on a Linux OS as the host, run your folding client there.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Schweet...!

I think I'll give Kubuntu a bit of a whirl before I start doing the -bigadv thing a proper go, even if it is only so that I don't choose not to use Linux as the OS (which is only likely to be the case if I can't join it to my W2k3 SBS domain) and have to re-do any configs that need to be set up...


----------



## IBuyJunk

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


VM is only if you are running a Windows host, as the Linux client performs better. If you are running on a Linux OS as the host, run your folding client there.


Would Linux running virtually on top of Windows still work better than just Windows?


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IBuyJunk* 
Would Linux running virtually on top of Windows still work better than just Windows?

Well it's complicated so, yes and no. Yes, there are commands and services that are much more powerful in Linux, especially for command line power users, but the speed and stability of Linux are considerably compromised under windoze.

Just an example I assume you know that when one installs any program under Windoze a file must be written or copied to the Windows directory/folder and line(s) written in the central registry. This is one aspect of how and why doze has "all eggs in one basket" where everything is *inter*dependent so, often, when a program or application crashes, the whole system crashes. It's also one reason why doze has to be rebooted so often.

Linux applications are *in*dependent, There is no central registry. So an app crashing crashes by itself.

So I'd rather run windoze under Linux.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Well it's complicated so, yes and no. Yes, there are commands and services that are much more powerful in Linux, especially for command line power users, but the speed and stability of Linux are considerably compromised under windoze.

Just an example I assume you know that when one installs any program under Windoze a file must be written or copied to the Windows directory/folder and line(s) written in the central registry. This is one aspect of how and why doze has "all eggs in one basket" where everything is *inter*dependent so, often, when a program or application crashes, the whole system crashes. It's also one reason why doze has to be rebooted so often.

Linux applications are *in*dependent, There is no central registry. So an app crashing crashes by itself.

So I'd rather run windoze under Linux.


I think he is talking specifically about folding.

In which case, for folding, I am informed that yes, running [email protected] under Linux in a VM under windows is better than running it under windows.


----------



## enorbet2

Geeez My sincere apologies for the link I posted to the Id ftp site. It's slow and doesn't always even complete. There are a few other download sites bit I only found a few for the Demo V 2. Here's one that is fast

http://www.fileplay.net/file/312/ene...emo-v2-0-linux

It's been updated just this January 2010 so it is quite new and plenty awesome especially for a native Linux game.

Enjoy
Jimmy


----------



## hondajt

I'm a windows 7 junkie. I have over $1000 invested just in Windows 7 OS's.

I LOVE Ubuntu & Linux Mint. Almost as much as W7. And it's free....(most of them are)


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

I created a quick Visio of my network yesterday, to try to help someone else on a different thread, but I thought I'd post it on here too....









Note that there are currently two Unix boxes, and I am seriously considering setting up the i7 as a Kubuntu box and getting it to Fold natively...if I could just understand how to configure that within a 'real' OS (as opposed to a VM) to save a little more CPU/RAM usage to squeeze even more PPD out of it...

Don't get me wrong, I've got both of the Ubuntu (UNIX1 and UNIX2) up and Folding fine, but they're both only single core CPU clients....and the 'HowTo' thread that talks about setting up the i7 -bigadv only seems to refer to using the VM from within a host OS, not doing it natively...


----------



## nzgroller

With Valves games and steam going to mac it won't be a long time before they go to linux


----------



## damtachoa

I haven't try linux yet, but I heard it's great. I hate microsoft. Viruses everywhere. Now I get a beast named wmpscfgs.exe in my pc, but no hope to kill it.


----------



## newt111

I never get viruses in Windows, you're opening shady attachments or downloading shady items.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newt111* 
I never get viruses in Windows, you're opening shady attachments or downloading shady items.

While there is little doubt that the majority of minor infections of Windows can be avoided by, as you imply, avoiding shady downloads but to assume you "never get viruses" I think is mistaken, other than by that now ancient term alone. Things have become much worse since the days when "virus" was enough to describe the sum total of threats.

There are more bots prowling the web than ever before and they don't wait on old versions of windows or an ill guided click. Rootkits and Trojans and worms attack. Most of these bots and malware are not written by prankish pimply faced script kiddies but by well-funded criminal organizations and even corporations.

Windows' built in firewall still only monitors incoming (and after what now? nearly 10 years? 3 versions and several service packs?) and despite M$ "Defender" even microsoft itself recommends 3rd party software for the latest and best of Windows 7. I'll never forget when Kevin Mitnick went mainstream and setup several PCs in the LA area to see how long it took before they were compromised once connected to the Net, and the best Windows PC took less than 15 minutes.

Just because you don't detect them doesn't mean there are none because of and despite a multi-billion dollar industry of such after-the-fact software.

It may not be true that all windows installs are way below all Linux installs in security because obscurity only goes so far and it does take awhile to learn how to properly administer any system. *However* those inclined to stay with Windows are many times less likely to care to learn about such matters since they are fed on the teat of dependency rather than encouraged to self discipline and empowerment.

You apparently have some interest in the challenge to have responded here, newt111, and I salute you for your good instincts.... even if you're not quite "there" yet.

Regards
Jimmy


----------



## KG363

I am now DL'ing Ubuntu 9.10. I accept your challenge, Latty.

I've tried it before but not really


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Well, here's an update for you... I did intend to run Kubuntu as the host, and even got as far as to install the 9.10 x64 OS and start trying to suss out the next steps I would have to take to get to what I was going for.......

The two main things I was hoping to be able to do, I couldn't do (or at least not quickly enough before I wiped and went back and installed W7), namely getting it added to my (M$) domain and also getting it to Fold for the -bigadv bonus points.

I did try to check for instructions, but it was getting late and I was under the affluence of incahol...

On the plus side, if you want to think of it as that, I have put the -bigadv VM on a separate partition of the HDD, and there's plenty enough space left - so that I could dual-boot the i7 rig between W7 and K/Ubuntu as the host.... It is a 250 (232) GB drive, partitioned as 100 GB for W7, 50 GB for the VM files (I'm thinking about trying a few other VMs in the months ahead), and the remaining space is currently reserved to be used for a Linux install.


----------



## Untame Zerg

I took the challenge several weeks ago, and now my laptop runs on Ubuntu 9.04.

With Steam (hopefully) coming to Linux, I'm one step closer to completely replacing Windows on my main rig. Now to decide... Stick with Ubuntu, or move on to something a bit more... Advanced. Debian? OpenSUSE?


----------



## aweir

I'm done splitting hairs when it comes to Windows security. I just want an OS I can install and use without losing sleep trying to decide which antivirus/firewall/HIPS to use. It's gotten to the point that I spend more time worrying if my system is secure than simply using it. Now that Ubuntu is becoming more and more refined with each release, I'm inclined to install it and use it exclusively for my banking, browsing, and online purchases.

Windows will be strictly for gaming, with internet disabled unless absolutely necessary. I think that this will in effect provide a large performance boost by not having so many processes and programs running at once. The OS can then focus on providing a good gaming experience without being bogged down.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aweir* 
I'm done splitting hairs when it comes to Windows security. I just want an OS I can install and use without losing sleep trying to decide which antivirus/firewall/HIPS to use. It's gotten to the point that I spend more time worrying if my system is secure than simply using it. Now that Ubuntu is becoming more and more refined with each release, I'm inclined to install it and use it exclusively for my banking, browsing, and online purchases.

Windows will be strictly for gaming, with internet disabled unless absolutely necessary. I think that this will in effect provide a large performance boost by not having so many processes and programs running at once. The OS can then focus on providing a good gaming experience without being bogged down.

My personal solution is another machine. My gaming PC (which is also at a nice form factor for LAN parties) has windows on, and only games installed. A virus, I reinstall windows, no big deal. My main PC is Linux-only.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Untame Zerg*


I took the challenge several weeks ago, and now my laptop runs on Ubuntu 9.04.

With Steam (hopefully) coming to Linux, I'm one step closer to completely replacing Windows on my main rig. Now to decide... Stick with Ubuntu, or move on to something a bit more... Advanced. Debian? OpenSUSE?


Greetz
If you're serious about exploring deeper into Linux there are basically 2 dchools of thought.

1) Jump Right In - since being forced to fix and learn is the fast track

2) Gradual Transition -

a) LiveCD -because of LIve CDs and DVDs it is possible to try without serious commitment, Some even allow and encourage building your own system before burning but no real installation commitment eg: http://www.slax.org/

b) Parallel Install - After choosing a likely candidate install it in it's own partition(s) sand use Ubuntu to help you understand the new one as well as it's deeper differences edit Note This may be step one with distros like Arch and especially Gentoo where full-featured LiveCDs are not really possible

c) Choose - either switch, try another, or continue in parallel through upgrades or even use one as a test bed

Linux may nor always make it easy, but it does make it right.


----------



## aweir

I'm waiting the release of Mint 9 later this month. I choose Mint because of the bundled codecs it includes and the fact that's it's based on Ubuntu but more polished.


----------



## ltrevo

i would like to try using linux.. but i cant get my fav program running on it.. if the program will release in linux then i'll switch


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ltrevo*


i would like to try using linux.. but i cant get my fav program running on it.. if the program will release in linux then i'll switch


You needn't apologize for bad English, it's fine. In any case it is likely an indication you know at least 2 languages.

As for Linux first of all you don't have to switch. With LiveCDs you can explore with no installation. Of course I just have to ask what single program is so important?


----------



## ltrevo

the 1 i use to download all my thing.. from.. html bt ed2k etc...


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ltrevo* 
the 1 i use to download all my thing.. from.. html bt ed2k etc...

Does thid downloader have a name? or is there some reason you are being nysterious? I assume you bothered to post that it is the major obstacle because you'd like see it available in Linux. You said as much. It is impossible to find out if anyone has gotten it, or a good substitute running without knowing what it is.

Incidentally, although I know what you likely really mean, the Earth doesn't need saving. It's going to be around for millions maybe billions of years. It's the future of the human race that has some cause for doubt.


----------



## ltrevo

the downloader is xunlei5 (thunder5) it use sp2p tech to download file from net..
known as leech for some people but it work for me & make my dl very fast

for linux i can quit gaming, but for xunlei5 i cant quit windows


----------



## enorbet2

Wow! Just how does it bypass ISP throttle, do you know? and just how much faster is it?


----------



## Simple_echo

Trying my hardest to take this challenge, but failing miserably.

I can't get it online. I'm using Airlink101 300n (model: AWLL6080) USB, and running Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. It can see my wireless network, and asks for the WEP, but won't connect. It just tries until it finally gives up and asks for the key again. Using Google I found something called Ndiswrapper, but the readMe is kind of confusing me. If Ndiswrapper is the solution to my problem, could someone dumb it down for me? I'm assuming I have to use the terminal, but I don't even know how to change to the directory that Ndiswrapper extracted to.

Starting to wonder if it's worth it though, maybe I'm just wasting effort? How well does it support Wacom tablets compared to Windows or OS X? Does Gimp have good pressure sensitivity? Also, are there good alternatives for Adobe's other software(Illustrator, Flash Proffesional (not flash player), etc.)? They kinda own my soul


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz

From what I've been able to gather that particular USB to NIC has been workking out-of-the-box since Ubuntu 8.04 even w/ WPA2 so I wouldn't get caught up in ndiswrapper just yet and probably ever. You shouldn't have to unless chipset changed while model number didn't.

I'd try disabling WEP to nail down that it can connect at all. If successful, I might try WPA since it's better than WEP.

If not successful I'd start looking for what chipset is being used and whether or not more than one driver module applies and try each. I am very fond of Live bootable CDs and most have slightly different driver choices and network managers. I'd download. burn and boot a few to see if any work easily and note ho they did that.

As for the larger questions Wacom is very well supported and has been for a long time. Flash is at least as good as in Windows and some say, better. Older versions of Illustrator run in Wine but I don;t know offhand where the version cutroff presently is.

It would be worth posting to Ubuntu forums as well since I saw very few mentions of that card w/ 10.04.as well as keep checking here. I'm quite experienced in Linux but not particularly versed in Ubuntu ways
best wishes
Jimmy.


----------



## EpicToast

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Wow! Just how does it bypass ISP throttle, do you know? and just how much faster is it?


I'm guess it's pretty fast because it grabs & uses all the connections it can get its hands on without sharing any what it downloaded back. :O

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Greetz
If you're serious about exploring deeper into Linux there are basically 2 dchools of thought.

1) Jump Right In - since being forced to fix and learn is the fast track

2) Gradual Transition -

a) LiveCD -because of LIve CDs and DVDs it is possible to try without serious commitment, Some even allow and encourage building your own system before burning but no real installation commitment eg: http://www.slax.org/

b) Parallel Install - After choosing a likely candidate install it in it's own partition(s) sand use Ubuntu to help you understand the new one as well as it's deeper differences edit Note This may be step one with distros like Arch and especially Gentoo where full-featured LiveCDs are not really possible

c) Choose - either switch, try another, or continue in parallel through upgrades or even use one as a test bed

Linux may nor always make it easy, but it does make it right.


"Jump Right In" worked the best for me. :]
So well that when I was typing this I did "dd" and was like "w*f, why isn't the line deleted" then I was like "oh... this isn't vim". xD


----------



## enorbet2

Yeah. VIM is *crunchy!*


----------



## AblueXKRS

I read the whole OP.

I tried Linux once. It broke my Windows. Then I reinstalled, Linux first, then Windows. It still broke my Windows.

After that, I said I couldn't be bothered, if it was going stop me from using my computer the way I wanted to.


----------



## 88Nitro

have you heard? they are porting steam to linux.. i can't find the original OCN Thread on it but here is another source:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phoronix*
We were tipped off this morning by an attentive Phoronix reader that in the demo copy of Left 4 Dead there were several Linux library files worth investigating. In particular, one of these files was even named steamclient_linux.so.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...irmation&num=1

when this is done i will be installing and using Mint or Ubuntu 90% more
and hopefully this will encourage devs to use OpenGL


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *AdmiralThrawn*


I read the whole OP.

I tried Linux once. It broke my Windows. Then I reinstalled, Linux first, then Windows. It still broke my Windows.

After that, I said I couldn't be bothered, if it was going stop me from using my computer the way I wanted to.


Linux didn't "break windows". At worst you failed to specify proper partition for install and disregarded the warning that the partition contained data. Or you were unsuccessful at getting the Linux bootloader installed correctly. This is just a learning process and one that is worthwhile for serious computer users. You weren't born knowing Windows either,

An easy workaround is to use a LiveCD. Fortunately there are lots to choose from and the most common distro, Ubuntu, has a LiveCD built right into the Install CD. IOW you can try out a fully funcrional Linux OpSys without having to install anything or take any chances whatsoever.

Just boot from the CD and in the case of Ubuntu, select Try It from the menu, No harm is possible and it is a surprisingly sweet ride for most people used to windoze, Play around and then decide if you'd like to go deeper,


----------



## cr1

I tried Ubuntu & Linux Mint for a couple of weeks, but I'm not convinced-

1- Games....nuff' said
2- I'm extremely Windows (from DOS to present) literate, but I found Linux to be difficult in the sense that getting Linux Commands to work was as time-consuming as finding one
3- Installing programs in Linux was painful

My thoughts after I went back to Windows:

Linux- free os & many free programs, I'm 'not' a programmer, but probably better code than Windows

If I was building a new PC on a budget, and gaming wasn't a priority, I'd definitely go with Linux...


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cr1* 
I tried Ubuntu & Linux Mint for a couple of weeks, but I'm not convinced-

1- Games....nuff' said
2- I'm extremely Windows (from DOS to present) literate, but I found Linux to be difficult in the sense that getting Linux Commands to work was as time-consuming as finding one
*3- Installing programs in Linux was painful*

My thoughts after I went back to Windows:

Linux- free os & many free programs, I'm 'not' a programmer, but probably better code than Windows

If I was building a new PC on a budget, and gaming wasn't a priority, I'd definitely go with Linux...

Empahsis added.

Someone wasn't using his package manager.


----------



## EpicToast

Quote:



Originally Posted by *88Nitro*


have you heard? they are porting steam to linux.. i can't find the original OCN Thread on it but here is another source:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...irmation&num=1
when this is done i will be installing and using Mint or Ubuntu 90% more
and hopefully this will encourage devs to use OpenGL


Steam in linux would be so awesome.


----------



## Quantum Reality

Installed Fedora Core 12 (?) on my Core i5 box. It's not bad as Linux goes though I had some annoying issues with 32/64 bit dependencies and for some reason the auto-update doesn't work right.

Meh. I only need the box to run Linux for as long as my data analysis code needs to stay usable. Once I no longer need it, I'll back everything up and then wipe the drive and try with 13 when it comes out.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EpicToast*


Steam in linux would be so awesome.











Quote:



Valve has also confirmed that it will make Steam available to Linux users in the coming months.


Source (The Telegraph)


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *lattyware*


Empahsis added.

Someone wasn't using his package manager.


I don't even see how that is painful.

Just grabbing the tar.gz file from a website is hardly any different from grabbing an .exe

I think there might actually be less mouse clicks too


----------



## AblueXKRS

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


Linux didn't "break windows". At worst you failed to specify proper partition for install and disregarded the warning that the partition contained data. Or you were unsuccessful at getting the Linux bootloader installed correctly. This is just a learning process and one that is worthwhile for serious computer users. You weren't born knowing Windows either


I installed each OS on separate Hard Drives. After Ubuntu had been installed, Windows wouldn't run any non-startup program for more than a minute before bluescreening.

The other time, installing Ubuntu damaged my MBR.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *AdmiralThrawn*


I installed each OS on separate Hard Drives. After Ubuntu had been installed, Windows wouldn't run any non-startup program for more than a minute before bluescreening.

The other time, installing Ubuntu damaged my MBR.


Well, sounds like coincidence. There is no way I can think of that ubuntu being installed on a completely different drive could cause Windows to blue screen. Have you done a memtest?

And to be fair, it's not Ubuntu's fault that Windows detests being anything other than the only operating system on your PC, and it's easy enough to fix your MBR.


----------



## Markeh

I used Lucid Lynx on my sigrig for a few hours, and I do like it, but for what I run my sigrig for (games), Linux isn't suitable. However, I've got my old Socket A rig, which I'd like to put it on.


----------



## Viviox

Hello everyone. Been reading this topic for about 2 hours now, there are 141 pages.....that's alot of reading. Anyway, I got something i want to ask about Linux since i am very very new at command line and linux.

I've been using windows since Win95 and I can say that i have a good amount of knowledge about Windows to help me customized it and tweaked it in certain ways that i like, some with the help of additional programs. What worries me the most is Viruses and Adwares, and potential hackers. My Win95 had over 50,000 viruses (that i had no knowledge of). This was back when i was 10 years old







I can protect my computer better now with NOD32, firewall, peerblock, and other wonderful windows programs. I stopped getting virus since 2003.

Now, my question is, can linux protect my computers? Not only from viruses, but from hackers, and unwanted individuals that trying to pry into my private computer.

I've been running Ubuntu 9.0 for about 2 weeks on my 8 years old P4 laptop, and i can say that it is a good looking OS. It might be better than XP and Vista, and at least on par with the new Windows 7. What bothers me the most when i was using Ubuntu is that, i have no idea what is going on in the background. Some of you guys said that Linux gives the Users better control of his/her computer than Windows, but as far as i see, i am loosing control over a lot of things. One example would be the downloading and installing programs through package manager. It just download and install automatically once i clicked on Install Program. I can't tell where is it installing the program. For windows, sometimes i like to test a program so i installed it inside a designated folder with Sandboxie protection, incase it has viruses or something that could messed up my windows. Everything is automatic (or at least i think it is in Ubutun), since it does everything for me, except for when it asked me for password when connecting to the internet. Maybe im not setting it up right...is it UAC setting like Windows 7, that turned off? 

I'll continue to use Linux and try to learn more about it, because i am sure that it would take more than a month to learn it. It is not as easy as Windows (which is a piece of cake) compare to how Linux is









P.S. 
1) Can someone recommends a good version of Linux that would work well with an 8 years old Sony Laptop, Pentium 4, 512MB of ram, 40gb of hard drive, and im not sure what's the graphic card memory is but its between 32-64MB. Ubutun 9.0 is too much for my lappy to handle









2) On another note, not being able to run any games on Linux is a pain. I have to settle for Linux version of solitary and chess, rather than high end graphic games. Anyone know any good games that can run with Linux that is on par with today modern windows games?

3) lastly, is there any good reading i can start off to learn more about Linux, like about root and command line?


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Viviox*


Hello everyone. Been reading this topic for about 2 hours now, there are 141 pages.....that's alot of reading. Anyway, I got something i want to ask about Linux since i am very very new at command line and linux.

I've been using windows since Win95 and I can say that i have a good amount of knowledge about Windows to help me customized it and tweaked it in certain ways that i like, some with the help of additional programs. What worries me the most is Viruses and Adwares, and potential hackers. My Win95 had over 50,000 viruses (that i had no knowledge of). This was back when i was 10 years old







I can protect my computer better now with NOD32, firewall, peerblock, and other wonderful windows programs. I stopped getting virus since 2003.

Now, my question is, can linux protect my computers? Not only from viruses, but from hackers, and unwanted individuals that trying to pry into my private computer.

I've been running Ubuntu 9.0 for about 2 weeks on my 8 years old P4 laptop, and i can say that it is a good looking OS. It might be better than XP and Vista, and at least on par with the new Windows 7. What bothers me the most when i was using Ubuntu is that, i have no idea what is going on in the background. Some of you guys said that Linux gives the Users better control of his/her computer than Windows, but as far as i see, i am loosing control over a lot of things. One example would be the downloading and installing programs through package manager. It just download and install automatically once i clicked on Install Program. I can't tell where is it installing the program. For windows, sometimes i like to test a program so i installed it inside a designated folder with Sandboxie protection, incase it has viruses or something that could messed up my windows. Everything is automatic (or at least i think it is in Ubutun), since it does everything for me, except for when it asked me for password when connecting to the internet. Maybe im not setting it up right...is it UAC setting like Windows 7, that turned off? 

I'll continue to use Linux and try to learn more about it, because i am sure that it would take more than a month to learn it. It is not as easy as Windows (which is a piece of cake) compare to how Linux is









P.S. 
1) Can someone recommends a good version of Linux that would work well with an 8 years old Sony Laptop, Pentium 4, 512MB of ram, 40gb of hard drive, and im not sure what's the graphic card memory is but its between 32-64MB. Ubutun 9.0 is too much for my lappy to handle









2) On another note, not being able to run any games on Linux is a pain. I have to settle for Linux version of solitary and chess, rather than high end graphic games. Anyone know any good games that can run with Linux that is on par with today modern windows games?

3) lastly, is there any good reading i can start off to learn more about Linux, like about root and command line?


OK, let me begin with the first part. Linux is very secure, as it's open source, the second anyone finds a bug, it gets patched very quickly, as anyone can do it. It's also been designed with more security in mind than windows. The general agreed thought is Linux is more secure, one of the many reasons so many servers run Linux. Viruses are pretty much unheard of, besides a few proof-of-concept bits of code.

As to knowing more about your system, that's entirely up to you. Ubuntu, trying to be user friendly, hides a lot of stuff. If you want to know the ins and outs of your system, you can compile all of your software yourself, then move the executables into your path. This is possible, but a pain as it would take a lot of time. Package managers handle it for you, so you don't have to bother. This said, Linux is always about choice, and I'm sure if you look into the package manager, you can get a list of what the package will install.

I can't say exactly, as I don't run Ubuntu, but you can view it online, e.g. for rhythmbox there is a list of all files included in the package.

Of course, it's a matter of the lengths you want to go through. Heck, you could even browse the source for everything you install with the wonders of an open source operating system. Of course, the time required to do so is insane, so no one does, but you can if you want to.

The advantage of the package manager is also the fact the repositories are trusted - package maintainers check the install works, check the software to make sure it's not malicious, etc... So it's another defence layer.

As to the latter questions, just google light distributions. If you like Ubuntu, try Xubuntu, as XFCE is lighter than gnome, and very similar in feel.

As to games, there are some you can run under wine, a few native (UT2k4, Defcon, World Of Goo, etc...) and Valve have said Steam is coming soon, and we presume native versions of Source-based games.

As to reading, the best way to learn is to try stuff, look up guides and remember over time, just accumulate knowledge, just like you did with windows. After a while you get the same level of knowing as windows, it's just the initial step.


----------



## enorbet2

Welcome to Linux

You can see whats going on in the background to a degree windoze users can only dream of while possessed of fever. Try these terminal commands "top", ps aux" and "dmesg | tail" for starters. Hit "the "q" key to quit "top". If you;d like to know some good books check out O'Reilly like "Linux in a Nutshell" for complete command reference. It might even now be online as is "The Linux Kernel in a Nutshell" which can be found here -
http://www.kroah.com/lkn/

There are gui proggies that view background stuff but they vary according to whuch Desktop Environment you use, though many will run in other environments if you have the libraries installed. For example, lightweight desktops like Xfce, Window Manager and Fluxbox have good support for both KDE and Gnome apps.

Speaking of lightweight, try some LiveCDs, complete Operating Systems om optical or usb disk, like Puppy :Linux and Slax, You can try them w/o installing anything

Games? I still like Quake 3 Arena, Quake Live, and Enemy Territories (Doom 3 engine) and even some older games like Heretic and Soldiers of Fortune. Arcade games and DOS games like Joust and Doom are also still fun and run natively or through arcade emulation..

Oh Yeah and Extreme Tux Racer is a blast


----------



## aweir

I want to run VirtualBox that way I can have Windows running on my primary monitor and linux on my second monitor. Any viruses I might download will be isolated from windows. I could game on my 28" and browse the net on my 22" monitor.

I just heard of this thing called Portable Ubuntu and now I want to try it out. It runs Ubuntu inside a virtual machine within Windows without all the hassle of having to configure a VM. http://portableubuntu.demonccc.com.ar/

It won't run under 64 bit windows.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *aweir*


I want to run VirtualBox that way I can have Windows running on my primary monitor and linux on my second monitor. Any viruses I might download will be isolated from windows. I could game on my 28" and browse the net on my 22" monitor.

I just heard of this thing called Portable Ubuntu and now I want to try it out. It runs Ubuntu inside a virtual machine within Windows without all the hassle of having to configure a VM. http://portableubuntu.demonccc.com.ar/

It won't run under 64 bit windows.










I just have two PCs and use synergy.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

I can't remember if I said on here before, but I wound up reverting back to W7(Ux64) for WKS04, as I couldn't be @r$Â£d to find out how to get Kubuntu to join a W2k3 domain...and my friend who was trying to help OC the CPU was due to leave in a few hours... At least I went with the option of keeping the Folding VM on a separate partition, so at least it should be possible for me to install some form of Linux OS onto the same computer and carry on crunching....

As it goes, I've set myself up with a Ubuntu (10.04) VM at work, which I'm using to get to grips with how to do some of the "basic" schtuffs...I've already been playing around with the toolbars to make them fit in with how I want them to be...


----------



## pow3rtr1p

Once Steam gets decently functional, and the Source engine has been more localized, I will go back to Linux. I may never go back to Windows again, assuming Source is 100% functional, and there's little to no performance hit in Linux.

I barely got TF2 functional before, and I was still on SOLELY Linux for almost an entire year. No Windows boots for at least 6 months.

Then I liked games too much again, and caved, and went back to Windows.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pow3rtr1p*


Once Steam gets decently functional, and the Source engine has been more localized, I will go back to Linux. I may never go back to Windows again, assuming Source is 100% functional, and there's little to no performance hit in Linux.

I barely got TF2 functional before, and I was still on SOLELY Linux for almost an entire year. No Windows boots for at least 6 months.

*Then I liked games too much again, and caved, and went back to Windows.*


I've been on the same destructive path for awhile. 90% due to ATi's Drivers, and lack of Native Linux Games.

Though, the ones that are native run really well. In spite of craptastic drivers.


----------



## aweir

Supergamer linux any good?

http://supergamer.org/


----------



## Radiopools

I have taken the challenge! I installed Ubuntu 10.04 on Wednesday, and have yet to switch back over to Windows. I accidently installed a second linux partition, and I'm unsure as to how to delete that unused partition..but other than that, any problem I have encountered I have been able to google an answer to, and I love all of the little neat Linux things it can do that Windows can't, like having multiple desktops. The multiple desktop feature really would have come in handy when I was doing my Social Psych research on WoW!









Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for pushing the challenge. I endorse Linux (at least Ubuntu, maybe some day I'll graduate to a more advanced distro but until I learn the basics I'm sticking with this). All of the problems I have faced have been fun to overcome. At one point I uninstalled something without really knowing what it was, when I booted all I got was a terminal, and I googled on another PC how to reinstall what I accidently uninstalled and got it back to normal. It's been a fun challenge so far. I know Ubuntu "just works," but I like it when things don't always work out perfectly, so this adventure has been fun as well as educational. Now I'm going to work on getting a few games to run and figuring out how to remove that extra Ubuntu partition.


----------



## t3haxle

I did Latty's Linux Challenge and I now *have tried Linux*!









I tried it, and it was soooooo much better than windows. But not being able to use flash, vegas, photoshop, and my tablet being a pita just killed it. If it gets better application support, then sure I'll use it. But right now it looks like I'll just wait till I get a laptop that Ubuntu has compatibility with the wireless card.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *t3haxle*


I did Latty's Linux Challenge and I now *have tried Linux*!









I tried it, and it was soooooo much better than windows. But not being able to use flash, vegas, photoshop, and my tablet being a pita just killed it. If it gets better application support, then sure I'll use it. But right now it looks like I'll just wait till I get a laptop that Ubuntu has compatibility with the wireless card.


Greetz
1st of all kudos for at least trying Linux whether it was just a LiveCD or full install, whether you tried it for a day or a month. Now that you at least know how it runs the odds are Windows will one day upset you enough bt owning "your" computer that you will once again desire to wrest it back.

*FWIW*

Flash has been available for Linux for several years and we're currently on an updated version of 10.

Although Vegas does not run on Linux, an excellent DAW called Ardour does and it even comes stock in a version of the newbie oriented Ubuntu, called Studio Ubuntu. It includes a real time kernel which has less than one tenth the lag of Windows. This has to be experienced to fully understand how much more accurate and pleasurable punch-ins and micro edits are. It also kicks games up a significant notch which already enjoy an online advantage due to superior TCP/IP stack. Some games fon;t play, nut the tradeoff isn't bad at all, especially w/ dual booting for those favorite few.... until Steam Linux hits soon.

Photoshop CS3 runs in Wine and while GIMP isn't quite Photoshop it is gaining and it's free rather than expensive or pirated..

Tablets have been supported for over 10 years so the likelihood is pretty high that with just a little work yours would work out fine.

Wireless support has improved dramatically in just the last two years though some hardware was well supported as long as 5 years ago, maybe longer. Once again there is a high likelihood that yours could work too. You just may need a pointer or two like you probably also did in Windows unless you have an unsecured router in which case Linux should work effortlessly, too, though you really should secure it since that means it's also effortless for anyone else to hijack it.

If and when you ever get the desire to give it a real go, just post your hardware specifics in the voluminous helpful Ubuntu forums or even here where there are lots knowledgeable people to help out.

regards
Jimmy


----------



## Lyoko

I have converted three homes to Fedora in the past few weeks.


----------



## Brutuz

If it wasn't for FSX and a few other games not liking wine that much (Plus I love the DX10 effects) I'd be in Linux 24/7.


----------



## PhilWrir

I used linux for quite some time, and I loved every second of it. My main issue was with the lack of Support for programs i use all the time. Mostly games. i currently dual boot linux on my MacBook Pro, but its very rare, and I only do it when i really want to tinker.
I would also recommend linux to anyone, but not as a general OS. to me, linux is more of an "enthisuast" OS. even just unbuntu.


----------



## legoman786

I'm thinking of going back to Ubuntu again.


----------



## coltsrock

full install of 10.04 Ubuntu coming now, using a 20GB partition


----------



## legoman786

I got a question about the installer; Is it the same procedure as 9.10? As in, install and GRUB will take care of it?

I know some people were having difficulties with GRUB and Windows 7.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, separate drives.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


I got a question about the installer; Is it the same procedure as 9.10? As in, install and GRUB will take care of it?

I know some people were having difficulties with GRUB and Windows 7.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, separate drives.


Yeah, I did this for my laptop.

10.04 installer and it takes care of most everything. I had to load some custom drivers for my Intel GMA HD, but that's because the stock Intel ones are crappy.


----------



## enorbet2

All the v10.04 *buntus use the new Grub2 which is a pita to menu edit but is just cracker jack at detecting bootable kernels/partitions and automatically adding them to the menu. Only problem I've seen is if you have Windows 7 and installed it on a raw, unpartitioned drive where 7 creates that hidden "System Reserved" partition. Grub2 will detect both and add both and one won't work but the other does.


----------



## legoman786

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


All the v10.04 *buntus use the new Grub2 which is a pita to menu edit but is just cracker jack at detecting bootable kernels/partitions and automatically adding them to the menu. Only problem I've seen is if you have Windows 7 and installed it on a raw, unpartitioned drive where 7 creates that hidden "System Reserved" partition. Grub2 will detect both and add both and one won't work but the other does.


Blargh... I think my install did do that. Anyone care to share how to edit Grub2 files?


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *legoman786*


Blargh... I think my install did do that. Anyone care to share how to edit Grub2 files?


By "that" do you mean added a useless menuitem? If that's what you mean you can remove it but anytime you "update-grub" it will reappear afaik. However if you'd like to do it anyway rather than just ignore it look here. This is the latest and definitely wirth the read.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2

It gives a step by step and the hows and whys.


----------



## legoman786

"That" would have been that extra partition that the Windows 7 install does. I took a closer look and realized that it's nowhere to be found. Plus, Ubuntu is going on a different HDD.


----------



## genji

Quote:



the recluses - the group that believe that if you don't know what to do when you have only a command line in front of you you should not be running Linux.


I fit into that group, and that is why I disrespect Ubuntu(It's "too automated") and distro's like it.(if you really want to learn Linux run Slackware or Gentoo, hell, even better build your own distro and make everything from scratch!) I think they should start people out on a command line only and after being able to pass a test of the basic commands should they let them have access to a GUI.


----------



## hajile

bump.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *genji*


I fit into that group, and that is why I disrespect Ubuntu(It's "too automated") and distro's like it.(if you really want to learn Linux run Slackware or Gentoo, hell, even better build your own distro and make everything from scratch!) I think they should start people out on a command line only and after being able to pass a test of the basic commands should they let them have access to a GUI.



When I first bought a Mandrake (now Mandriva) CD from CompUSA in 1998, I installed it on a triple-boot box I'd built. I had been dual and triple booting since 1993 but by that time already had 2 years of DOS under my belt.

The reason for this history is to demonstrate that my introduction to PCs began with command line. I love command line where a single command has 10's of variations from switches. To understand what commands did I ran every command on a DOS 3 system (and later again on a DOS 5 system) to see what it did, not just read about it. I broke the system many times and recovering from that *really* taught me what commands do.

I remember previous to this time being told by friends "You need a computer" and when I asked "What for?" the usual litany of "It'll balance your check book..." inevitably followed. Since I could do that for free, or the cost of wear and tear on a pencil and a piece of paper as fascinated as I was with the electronics of them I couldn't see what a computer would do for me.

The one mentioned above with DOS 3 on it was a gift and all I did was play primitive solitaire and use the word processor.... that is until a friend gave me 3 floppies with PCTools' PCShell on it, which was an early file manager. I will never forget the feeling of the "lights going on". I could see the organization of the operating system and I had drastically changed what the PC could do in a few minutes and with 3 little diskettes.

It wasn't a box of tools. It was *ANY* box of tools because it could be added to and reconfigured to do any number of jobs you could imagine. The combination of installing a fundamental set of programs and especially a primitive GUI did that. I could see.

I think it is equally foolish to rely exclusively on command line as it is to rely strictly on icons.

Since an icon is really only a link to a command, you'd need thousands of them to cover all the switch permutations. It would be a very cluttered tool box, very difficult to find the one you need. Plus if you launch from an icon and there is a problem, a miniature icon blinks for awhile and then disappears without a single clue as to why or what happened. This is some of why CLI is better than icons for power users in any OpSys, not just Linux.

However graphics can give an overview that just doesn't happen in console. A simple file manager is essential to me. There is organization possible in graphics that can't occur in text only CLI. In Linux, even "ncurses" is a nod to the power and insight of graphics. Just because it is used in console doesn't somehow negate it's graphic nature. I'm very comfortable in text editors like "vi" but I vastly prefer a graphic text editor. There are programs I regularly use that need no switches for normal operation and it takes less time to find and execute them than to type the full name in a console, even though I have one permanently on my desktop right above the taskbar.

I see no good reason to use only one interface exclusively and certainly don't think people need to pass any tests to run a computer, though I often wish they had bothered to learn the basics. Claiming CLI is antiquated is just foolish and lazy. Claiming GUI is useless is silly posturing, IMHO. We all can benefit greatly from using the right tool for the right job but power users have many tools, not just a handful.


----------



## sythe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dezixn* 
Linux is awesome.

I just wish I could use it. No support for most games = a no go









I would put it on my parents' computers, but they can hardly make it through windows... Going to linux would be hell on them.

You'd be surprised. I switched both of my parents to Linux, and they found it easier.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sythe* 
You'd be surprised. I switched both of my parents to Linux, and they found it easier.

Among other things I do freelance PC building and repairing. A lot of my clients are retirees who have been given computers by their kids and grandkids mostly to stay in touch. I should say that some got into it on their own and have developed considerable expertise at digital photography and other PC tools but here's the major point.

None of them really understand the need let alone the ways to keep Windows secure and running right. The conundrum this puts me in is indicative of the modern business model. A few years ago I installed Xandros on a few clients' PCs and maintenance calls dropped off to a trickle. They had little or no difficulty switching over. Some even thought it was just some better flavor of Windows.

However if I wasn't swamped most of the time and if I didn't want to abandon the business I's have to ask myself "Do I really want to install a product that effectively undermines my repair business?" In my case that's easy because I am swamped and can avoid the question.

However this says a lot about what propels Windows dominance. It's good for everybody except the consumer and few consumers understand just how important the competition from Mac and Linux really is, and even more importantly the entire Open Source movement's effect on their lives now and nothing less than the future of computing.


----------



## Transhour

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enorbet2* 
Among other things I do freelance PC building and repairing. A lot of my clients are retirees who have been given computers by their kids and grandkids mostly to stay in touch. I should say that some got into it on their own and have developed considerable expertise at digital photography and other PC tools but here's the major point.

None of them really understand the need let alone the ways to keep Windows secure and running right. The conundrum this puts me in is indicative of the modern business model. A few years ago I installed Xandros on a few clients' PCs and maintenance calls dropped off to a trickle. They had little or no difficulty switching over. Some even thought it was just some better flavor of Windows.

However if I wasn't swamped most of the time and if I didn't want to abandon the business I's have to ask myself "Do I really want to install a product that effectively undermines my repair business?" In my case that's easy because I am swamped and can avoid the question.

However this says a lot about what propels Windows dominance. It's good for everybody except the consumer and few consumers understand just how important the competition from Mac and Linux really is, and even more importantly the entire Open Source movement's effect on their lives now and nothing less than the future of computing.

for extra cash, i to also do computer repairs, bug cleans, reinstalls, etc, whatever the person i am doing it for, for whatever reason can not or will not do it themselves.

about a year ago, my sisters friend brought me her laptop to fix, i fixed it, and windows xp was just a mess, the laptop took over 15 minutes to boot to desktop and prolly around another additional 10 minutes to become fully loaded. the poor thing had not been defragged in years, it had icons for a wallpaper, and its poor system tray wrapped itself several times (i was quite shocked as i had never seen one do this before LOL)

well to make a long story short, i did what i could,got rid of all the spyware/malware, any virus's it might have had, shut off everything to load at boot, defragged the harddrive, it was considerable faster than it was before, but no where near what it should have been, remembered, i repaired the hardware problem for money, i did this for free, out of the goodness of my heart.

well she was happy it was faster, but wanted xp reinstalled, but she didn't have the restore cd's any longer, told her i couldn't do anything for her, as she would either have to find some one with an identical laptop as hers to borrow the restore cd's or buy a copy of xp, she didn't want to do that.

so i recomended a dual boot of ubuntu, she asked what that was i showed her on my computer, cause i was running it at that time. she seemedimpress and said yeah put that on there, so i did and gave it back to her.

you want to talk about a bad recomendation, this was it, she wasn't even gone an hour when the first phone call came in, i will remind you, i did this for FREE, i had no monetary gain from installing ubuntu, but she treated me like i was her personally slave. i eventually got the laptop back from her,and removed ubuntu cause i got tired of the hourly phone calls

so i do not recomend linux anything to any one, unless they show an interest in it, and even then i make it clear, i am not linux tech support, if they want to use me as that, my rate is 25 dollars an hour


----------



## KeoKIKoeK

This is a great thread. I started using Ubuntu 10.04 about 4 months ago. So far I am quite impressed. I am deployed and I figured now would be a perfect time to start messing with Ubuntu/Linux again. I started out using DOS with Windows 3.1. Of course I only really learned DOS because I would mess up Windows and then trying to not loose everything on the computer or fix Windows I learned DOS. Also there were still quite a few programs that were command-line driven. I first tried a copy of Red Hat that someone gave me around 1998 because they said that it was a really good and powerful OS. Needless to say after finally figuring out how to install it and not knowing Linux commands I gave up and stuck with Windows.

The laptop I am using is getting to be about 5 years old and running WinXP on it was killing me. I didn't have the restore CD for and Toshiba wanted $40 to send me one. It desperately needed a restore, there was so much crap on here from when my dad was using it (he gave it to me about 1.5 years ago). So I bit the bullet and tried to backup most of the drivers and reinstall a copy of WinXP (this is easy on any desktop I have built but for a laptop I know how difficult it is finding drivers because of all the proprietary crap). It took me nearly 3-4 days and 2-3 reinstalls to get it right. What a pain, once I had it setup I ghosted it. Now I had my own restore CD. Once I got downrange and had time someone had a copy of Ubuntu 9.10 so I dual booted and right away it worked with no problems. Big plus. I could do everything I wanted with just the base install, didn't need to go online for drivers or anything. Very easy. Used it for about a week and then did a complete reinstall formatting the drive and installing Ubuntu as the sole OS.

Since then I had Ubuntu send me a CD (since it would take 10days to download here) and installed 10.04. I have reinstalled a few times but that's because I like to read about stuff and then change things and then mess it up and then do a redo. My wifes laptop at home is also very old, I plan on redoing hers with only Ubuntu. It is incredibly easy to use and I think that a lot of people here have the right idea of using it on their parents or grandparents machines. It is so much easier and by default much more secure. Just teach them the Software Center and they are straight.

My desktop at home (self built) I will just dual boot, I don't do a lot of gaming and I agree with a lot of comments on here that if you are only really using your rig for gaming, Windows 7 seems like a great OS and why switch to Ubuntu just to check email or do homework. At home though my wife does professional photography and uses PS and Lightroom so, I don't want to mess with her setup but when I am on there I will be booting into Ubuntu.

I use a lot of GUI's on here to make sure I do things correctly (hence I have already reinstalled 3 times in 4 months, because I messed something up by command-line) but as I start to use software more and learn the command line more, I am slowly starting to switch to command line only. I am currently also working on learning programming. I have never bothered before because I was never really interested, but I have been working shell scripts and have a Python book on order. So we will see.

Thanks everyone for the interesting comments in this thread.


----------



## Transhour

I'm glad you are enjoying ubuntu







and find it an acceptable replacement to windows.

the console still irks me everyonce in awhile, but like enorbet2 once said, there are somethings a shortcut can not do, or something like that.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Well, I'm running a version of Linux on a VM at home and again at work, but I couldn't tell you which it is as it is the [email protected] client VM that was built for running the -bigadv client for [email protected] Oh, and I doubt I'll go back on WKS04 as it seems that there are no more -bigadv WUs to run in Linux, whereas there are plenty in M$ OSs - and I can't really see the point of running Linux to have a M$ VM inside it....

I tried to run it natively at home, but couldn't get it to join my (SBS) AD domain before I got bored and wanted/needed to start Folding.

As it stands, I'm now thinking about the possibility of creating a second DC on a Linux box, so that I could (at least theoretically) migrate from W2k3 SBS, the only/main issue I'm concerned about now would be to have to faff about trying to get the existing M$ computers to join the Linux (Samba??) domain, as some just can't be switched over, and I don't want to have to rebuild any of the client machines - or remove from the existing domain and have to configure _everything_ again from scratch..

I did try to create a server (Karmic Koala, IIRC) but got bored after spending about three days (admittedly, only about 2~4 hours per day) to get IDK how far into it.. I remember that the instru destructions seemed to be talking about configuring an e-mail server, but I didn't need to do that (due to SBS having Exchange) and I still couldn't see anything other than a black background and white text...


----------



## evermooingcow

I'm sort of the opposite.

I have a fully Linux home network with a few Windows boxes and I recently decided that there is really no need to have extra protocols running just to support those few.

I was having issues with Samba too where occasionally it would cause explorer to crash on Windows Vista and 7. It may just have been explorer crashing on its own but it always happened when I was browsing Samba share so I figured there's a correlation there. It was still usable and I could have troubleshooted but I decided I'd rather keep it clean and just dropped the service altogether. Windows boxes just aren't exchanging files with my file server which hasn't been too much of a loss so far. I can do small transfers with SCP anyway.

Overall I'm tired of Windows incompatibilities and how Linux has to cater to the Windows proprietary protocol for them to talk to each other. Its not happening where I own the network.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
I can;t remember if I posted this link in this thread but given how long this thread is and how good this is, it bears repeating anyway. KeokKoeck's post reminded me that many want to do scripts and don't really have a quick reference for the commands those scripts use.

Others just need an easy reference for what commands do and how the switches work. An example of how dedicated and helpful this community is will be evident if you follow this link. The actual author of this great OReilly book has made it available for free.

*Linux in a Nutshell*

Right here: http://www.kroah.com/lkn/


----------



## KeoKIKoeK

Thanks a lot enorbet2, I am sure that I will be tackling my own kernel here soon. I saw it posted either in this thread or another that it is a great idea for a new guy to attempt this. That it is possible to learn a lot from just jumping right in, but to ensure that you keep the old kernel in tact so that *when* I mess up my kernel I can resort back to a working kernel. Thanks again for the link.


----------



## WTHbot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transhour* 
for extra cash, i to also do computer repairs, bug cleans, reinstalls, etc, whatever the person i am doing it for, for whatever reason can not or will not do it themselves.

about a year ago, my sisters friend brought me her laptop to fix, i fixed it, and windows xp was just a mess, the laptop took over 15 minutes to boot to desktop and prolly around another additional 10 minutes to become fully loaded. the poor thing had not been defragged in years, it had icons for a wallpaper, and its poor system tray wrapped itself several times (i was quite shocked as i had never seen one do this before LOL)

well to make a long story short, i did what i could,got rid of all the spyware/malware, any virus's it might have had, shut off everything to load at boot, defragged the harddrive, it was considerable faster than it was before, but no where near what it should have been, remembered, i repaired the hardware problem for money, i did this for free, out of the goodness of my heart.

well she was happy it was faster, but wanted xp reinstalled, but she didn't have the restore cd's any longer, told her i couldn't do anything for her, as she would either have to find some one with an identical laptop as hers to borrow the restore cd's or buy a copy of xp, she didn't want to do that.

so i recomended a dual boot of ubuntu, she asked what that was i showed her on my computer, cause i was running it at that time. she seemedimpress and said yeah put that on there, so i did and gave it back to her.

you want to talk about a bad recomendation, this was it, she wasn't even gone an hour when the first phone call came in, i will remind you, i did this for FREE, i had no monetary gain from installing ubuntu, but she treated me like i was her personally slave. i eventually got the laptop back from her,and removed ubuntu cause i got tired of the hourly phone calls

so i do not recomend linux anything to any one, unless they show an interest in it, and even then i make it clear, i am not linux tech support, if they want to use me as that, my rate is 25 dollars an hour










About a year ago Iinstalled ubuntu 9.10 on my machine, it was temporary till I could get my hands on a legit copy of windows, but I was to poor to just pull the trigger and spend the rest of my money for it(Luckily I didn't, I don't think I could have eaten for another weak if I had.)

I had heard about Ubuntu, seen the pretty "Look what eyecandy I can make this distro do!" Videos on youtube, andI thoughtj I Would give it a try. I am pretty computer literate, as I know most of the people on this forum or even the guessed that read this forum are. And for the things I do not know, I'm pro at google-fu for those things. I found that I could just google any question I had, or any problem I noticed( such as Flash giving my cpu a run for it's money.) and be able to fix anything myself. I found that most of my questions had been answered and the few that hadn't I just had to ask on a forum(at the time PC'per) and get the answer. Yes ATI's drivers were a ***** and Flash never fully functioned on my machine but in a months time I had educated myself enough to work through any and all problems most of the time with 0 google-fu. I found myself with a stable computer that ran fine and took almost 0 maintenance. Coming from windows I thought that was odd, almost like I wasn't being productive on the health of my system(which on windows I'm a little overzealous with maintenance,defrags daily and such.)

I could really see how Linux when configured properly would run basically flawlessly if you were just a "Browser user," and for people who do, do video editing and photo work you still could get software free and easy. I feel like the fact that, that was possible would be perfect for people. And I don't think Linux ever really caught on. If it had then we'd see it be used for people who aren't "Power Users," or gamers. We'd see linux users as just "regular" people. People who don't want to have to pay there OS attention that it shouldn't need. For people who just want to do the things they want to and not worry about the rest.

I feel when I read stories about people who get into Linux and have so many problems that they are just not willing to either learn or do not have a well oiled machine like a linux station can be. When I hear about people getting there cousins or family members into linux and then having the family members pester them, then they didn't do a good enough job explaining how to use it or get it to the point where they don't need to worry about learning to use it.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KeoKIKoeK* 
Thanks a lot enorbet2, I am sure that I will be tackling my own kernel here soon. I saw it posted either in this thread or another that it is a great idea for a new guy to attempt this. That it is possible to learn a lot from just jumping right in, but to ensure that you keep the old kernel in tact so that *when* I mess up my kernel I can resort back to a working kernel. Thanks again for the link.

Should've been this one

http://www.wowebook.com/operating-sy...h-edition.html

The other one is advanced and not needed by everyone. This one is for everybodty


----------



## hajile

bump


----------



## levontraut

i dual boot for win7 and ubuntu. if i know there is somthing up i boot into ubuntu. and the rest of the stuff i use win7. i lso boot into ubuntu if i want to check fir viruses on flash drives and all. and scan my hdd through ubuntu as well for viruses. and delete stuff through ubuntu that i do nto want there.


----------



## sythe

A mistake that many people make? Trying Ubuntu as their first distribution, or installing it for a relative. Try explaining to a relative why they can't play music, watch DVDs or online video (Flash), connect to wi-fi (laptops, for example) or play their favorite games. (Especially if the games are cross-platform, or Platinum-rated WINE games) Ubuntu will never be user-friendly until it offers these features "out-of-the-box", like Mint. My best friend (Not a geek) ordered a laptop without Windows (he chose the "No OS" option, saving over $100). I installed and configured Linux Mint in 20 minutes. I also showed him the Software Manager. The day after, he'd installed six games and Skype, all on his own, after using exclusively Xp for years.


----------



## TFB

But flash and mp3 codecs are not FREE software. That's why they're not included with Ubuntu. Some people want to run open source systems and that should be respected.

10.10 changes that a bit. When you install it, it asks if you want to add non-free software during the install process.


----------



## Transhour

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


But flash and mp3 codecs are not FREE software. That's why they're not included with Ubuntu. Some people want to run open source systems and that should be respected.

10.10 changes that a bit. When you install it, it asks if you want to add non-free software during the install process.


i agree, not cause it is "non-free" software, but it is a choice a person has to make, what they want on their system.

that is the power of linux and i am personally glad ubuntu has chosen not to include these.

if i am not mistaken, windows also only comes with a limited amount of codecs for audio and movies, and as far as i know you have to still install flash, so whats the difference here?

its great and all sythe you love Mint, but like i always say, mint's are for pillow's









i don't really care which distro or OS ppl choose in the end, but let them make that choice, i use ubuntu a lot, and i've used mint, out of the two i like ubuntu loads more


----------



## PappaSmurfsHarem

my problem is i cant use linux for games on my rig, but i love love love it.

I want to use it on my 2 laptops... but my netbook get 3 hours less battery life with it... that and its just harder to use with the small resolution... the aero snap in windows 7 is a must for a netbook,and dont mention the netbook remix because it just feels like a tablet thing...

On my larger laptop (Toshiba) the computer will not goto sleep with the lid closed... no matter what i do... ive tried multiple hacks and work arounds and it just doesnt work...

I have thought on many occasions about buying a new laptop just for linux and the idea keeps getting better


----------



## petran79

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PappaSmurfsHarem;12004783*
> my problem is i cant use linux for games on my rig, but i love love love it.
> 
> I want to use it on my 2 laptops... but my netbook get 3 hours less battery life with it... that and its just harder to use with the small resolution... the aero snap in windows 7 is a must for a netbook,and dont mention the netbook remix because it just feels like a tablet thing...
> 
> On my larger laptop (Toshiba) the computer will not goto sleep with the lid closed... no matter what i do... ive tried multiple hacks and work arounds and it just doesnt work...
> 
> I have thought on many occasions about buying a new laptop just for linux and the idea keeps getting better


You can adjust various settings in power management like monitor brightness etc.

Fortunately my toshiba netbook does not have any problems with the lid closed. But if i use an avermedia usb card i have to remove it first.

I have this issue on the desktop though. Will not go to standby mode.


----------



## mushroomboy

Quote:



Originally Posted by *sythe*


A mistake that many people make? Trying Ubuntu as their first distribution, or installing it for a relative. Try explaining to a relative why they can't play music, watch DVDs or online video (Flash), connect to wi-fi (laptops, for example) or play their favorite games. (Especially if the games are cross-platform, or Platinum-rated WINE games) Ubuntu will never be user-friendly until it offers these features "out-of-the-box", like Mint. My best friend (Not a geek) ordered a laptop without Windows (he chose the "No OS" option, saving over $100). I installed and configured Linux Mint in 20 minutes. I also showed him the Software Manager. The day after, he'd installed six games and Skype, all on his own, after using exclusively Xp for years.


ROFLCOPTER to the BANK! First off, Windows can't even play flash out of the box. Also, if you have internet it shouldn't be that hard to get flash running.... It's one file, it goes in ~/.mozilla/plugins or use the software center. It doesn't support silverlight, so no netflicks (at least not without a tweak/vm). Wifi works on a lot of Linux installers now (Debian net install supports wifi, so does arch I believe), and so that's a joke. I can't even believe you would bother saying that, it's been one of the biggest priorities and has come an extremely long way in a very short time. DVDs play fine, oh noes so you need to download one file to get it to work! Oh noes!!! It's only been the latest Windows additions that have put that on the plate, Vista/7 as previous versions didn't ship with the support. I'm surprised Mint has gotten away with it, and in Mint 8 you actually had to download libdvdcss* to get playback. So it is a very recent addition. Finally, games! If you go to my post in the Linux section you'll actually see you can play Crysis under Linux in all it's glory and at a decent FPS. 8800GT gets 20+ FPS, and that's not bad considering how it's being played. Seriously, posts like this make me annoyed. I've done all this on any system, from Debian, Arch, Ubuntu, openSUSE, Fedora, give me another auto-managed system?

I also don't like Mint users, they want everything on a silver plate.


----------



## PappaSmurfsHarem

Quote:



Originally Posted by *petran79*


You can adjust various settings in power management like monitor brightness etc.

Fortunately my toshiba netbook does not have any problems with the lid closed. But if i use an avermedia usb card i have to remove it first.

I have this issue on the desktop though. Will not go to standby mode.


Thanks but I am well aware of the power management options, windows 7 (7 hours of medium browsing) linux at lowest brightness 4 hours


----------



## OwnedINC

Quote:



Originally Posted by *TFB*


But flash and mp3 codecs are not FREE software. That's why they're not included with Ubuntu. Some people want to run open source systems and that should be respected.

10.10 changes that a bit. When you install it, it asks if you want to add non-free software during the install process.


Since when does Flash cost anything?


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:



Originally Posted by *OwnedINC*


Since when does Flash cost anything?


Surely you have heard the age-old saw "Free as in Liberty, not as in Beer"? One is not free to alter Flash in any way. I'm using Firefox 4beta9 specifically to support HTML5 for that very reason.

That said, the *buntus should take a clue from other distros and include a Non-Free section right on the iso, IMHO. It is just a total pita the hoops one has to jump through to use 3rd party installers for proprietary stuff instead of having to wait for a repository to catch up. However, the *Buntus, Mint included, and in fact from my POV all dependency resolving distros exert considerable "carrots and whips" to potty train their users to only go to official repositories or risk being caught with their pants down.

Real Linux is supposed to be about options.


----------



## ArchLinuxFTW

Quote:



Originally Posted by *enorbet2*


That said, the *buntus should take a clue from other distros and include a Non-Free section right on the iso, IMHO. It is just a total pita the hoops one has to jump through to use 3rd party installers for proprietary stuff instead of having to wait for a repository to catch up. However, the *Buntus, Mint included, and in fact from my POV all dependency resolving distros exert considerable "carrots and whips" to potty train their users to only go to official repositories or risk being caught with their pants down.

Real Linux is supposed to be about options.


I believe the reason for Ubuntu not having a non free section right on the ISO was:
-Some people maybe don't want non free software.
-It takes up space on the disk (not much though)
-If people do want non-free, they can add the medibuntu repository to get it.

As far as proprietary software, they do not put it on the ISO simply for legal reasons: it's technically illegal to provide stuff like MP3 codec or Microsoft TTF fonts. Ubuntu, being run by a non-profit organization, wants to avoid any legal issues. So instead, they offer the stuff from a special repository that they do not maintain themselves. Just edit /etc//apt/sources/.list to put it in.

I believe Mint does have all the proprietary and non-free stuff installed by default.

They have to recommend the official repositories because that is the best security practice: those packages have all been checked. It is also a thousand times easier to install from the repositories, and there is a guarantee that software from there will work.


----------



## TFB

Quote:



Originally Posted by *OwnedINC*


Since when does Flash cost anything?


Like enorbet said, there is a difference between free and truly free.

The Flash plugin doesn't cost anything on any system as far as I know but it is still proprietary and that prevents people from legally editing it. In the Linux world, there are some open source fanatics that won't use it just because they can't edit it.

I'm not one of those people. I try to use open source when I can but I do install closed source stuff when I have no other option or when closed source is the best option.

So while the flash plugin might not cost you a penny, it isn't free to manipulate, explore or re-write. Therefore, it's not truly free.


----------



## Tator Tot

Quote:



Originally Posted by *OwnedINC*


Since when does Flash cost anything?


Like others have said there is "Free as in Beer" and "Free as in Speech" 
The idea is that one can be taken away from you, and that the other will always be there.

Flash has a cost to it, for everyone that uses it. That cost is your name and the legal implications that go with it.

Some people get more worked up over it than others though.


----------



## PsychoKilla666

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dezixn*


Linux is awesome.

I just wish I could use it. No support for most games = a no go









I would put it on my parents' computers, but they can hardly make it through windows... Going to linux would be hell on them.


I put Ubuntu on my parents laptop and they didn't notice

I have it on an EEE Lappy, but I rarely use it myself

I won't use it, yet I love it and recommend it, weird


----------



## Randallrocks

I installed Ubuntu 10.10 in a VM yesterday, and I have to say... this is fantastic! Apt-get is the most convenient thing ever.

Just one thing: when I launch an app from the terminal (e.g. Firefox), how do I use the same terminal again without ctrl+c'ing the process?


----------



## Transhour

put a & directly after it. like:

firefox&


----------



## mushroomboy

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Randallrocks*


I installed Ubuntu 10.10 in a VM yesterday, and I have to say... this is fantastic! Apt-get is the most convenient thing ever.

Just one thing: when I launch an app from the terminal (e.g. Firefox), how do I use the same terminal again without ctrl+c'ing the process?


Ask questions in the linux forum. I know this is a linux thread, but it's not a help thread.

[edit]

Quote:



Originally Posted by *transhour*


put a & directly after it. like:

firefox&



Don't aid the helpless!


----------



## Transhour

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mushroomboy*


Ask questions in the linux forum. I know this is a linux thread, but it's not a help thread.

[edit]

Don't aid the helpless!


how else are they to learn then?

one thing i forgot to mention, you will still get any outpout in the terminal window even doing it this way, so any "bugs" or just general "talk" you will see the output of it in the window, but just hit enter and it will pop up with the prompt


----------



## mushroomboy

Quote:



Originally Posted by *transhour*


how else are they to learn then?

one thing i forgot to mention, you will still get any outpout in the terminal window even doing it this way, so any "bugs" or just general "talk" you will see the output of it in the window, but just hit enter and it will pop up with the prompt










=P I just wanted him to make the post in the appropriate forum under a new thread instead of this one. I don't like thread hijacking. =(


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Hi Jack...


----------



## Nikkopo

I have always wanted to try to run Linux, but some things have stopped me on the road.

Games! I do game surely every day and not being able to game would make me sad =(

Adobe! I use After Effects, Photoshop, Flash and Premiere pretty often. Can these run under Wine?

Can anyone who has used Wine tell how it is? Is it goood or bad? Any problems or so?

Also, I will read this guide, and may try linux in the following week/s.

Ill report back if I choose to stay on linux side or the mainstream microsoft still got me


----------



## Randallrocks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nikkopo;12514092*
> I have always wanted to try to run Linux, but some things have stopped me on the road.
> 
> Games! I do game surely every day and not being able to game would make me sad =(
> 
> Adobe! I use After Effects, Photoshop, Flash and Premiere pretty often. Can these run under Wine?
> 
> Can anyone who has used Wine tell how it is? Is it goood or bad? Any problems or so?
> 
> Also, I will read this guide, and may try linux in the following week/s.
> 
> Ill report back if I choose to stay on linux side or the mainstream microsoft still got me


http://appdb.winehq.org/


----------



## Nikkopo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallrocks;12517017*
> http://appdb.winehq.org/


Im aware of that site thank you. But I'd like to hear from people thats actually using it.


----------



## newt111

http://forum.winehq.org/


----------



## jach11

wine isnt the best. It would be better to find a program that resembles these windows programs rather than running it in wine. Wine lags and is just awful.


----------



## Transhour

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Nikkopo*


I have always wanted to try to run Linux, but some things have stopped me on the road.

Games! I do game surely every day and not being able to game would make me sad =(

Adobe! I use After Effects, Photoshop, Flash and Premiere pretty often. Can these run under Wine?

Can anyone who has used Wine tell how it is? Is it goood or bad? Any problems or so?

Also, I will read this guide, and may try linux in the following week/s.

Ill report back if I choose to stay on linux side or the mainstream microsoft still got me










i don't understand post like this tbh.

gaming in linux, is a hit or miss, i can tell you games i've gotten to run, but there is no guarantee they will run perfectly in wine. dx9 games and opengl games have a better chance of running in wine, than dx10 games do, as the functionality of dx9 has been almost completely duplicated in wine.

adobe products are notorious for their dislike of running in wine, flash has a native client now, an actual release for the 32 bit platform, but a beta for the x86_64 platform, as for creating and compiling flash programs in linux that i'm not sure of, as i don't use flash often enough to have run into this.

if you have an absolute "need" for a certain program and their isn't a native linux install of it, or a native program that can do what it does, then the answer is definitely no in the question is linux right for me.

i've also noticed in my day only about 5% of people who say they "need adobe photoshop", don't really need it, but since it has become the defacto photo/graphic editing software, they really don't go out looking for alternative programs.

my twin sister is like this, claimed for years to her husband, to justify the price of adobe, that she "needed" it. when i collaborated with her on a joint project her and i both had been commissioned to do, it took me a whole 30 minutes of watching her do what she did with photoshop to know she didn't "need" anything from it. i introduced her to paint.net and she's been using that ever since, and producing the same quality graphics that she was doing when she had photoshop.

now if she worked for a graphics company that required her to have photoshop or any other adobe tool, i wouldn't have thought about trying to get her to switch, cause her "need" would've switched from perceptional to actual.

now onto wine. most new users (noobs) are often unable to get the quality that some get out of the use of wine. as often times it requires tweaking of the wine code thru use of patches, recompiling it with certian options, and editing its configuration to use "native" obtained dll's to use instead of built-in dll's. so don't believe the anyone when they say "just use wine" as most of the time, us seasoned linux users, often forget what it takes to use wine successfully, its definitely a learned process of trial and error.

getting steamed installed in wine is easy, as it works pretty much out of the box in wine, but that is no indication to get any of the steam games to work, i've had various success with games, i've gotten fallout3 and new vegas to work without any problems, but i can't get age of empires 2 to work at all...

so my suggestion, reevaluate your "needs" to make sure they are real needs or just preference, and if you absolutely "need" games then linux is not for you.

my two cents.


----------



## fatjake

I signed up on this forum really only to reply to this thread, although I will likely stick around.

I am running an AMD Opteron 165 @ 2610 MHZ (currently). The Opteron 165 was the primo overclocking chip for a long while before the C2D came out, and I used to run it at 2.8GHZ on stock cooler (got lucky, but after time thermal migration or some such caused me to lower it a bit, not a big deal).

Anyways, I still haven't upgraded mobo (DFI) and CPU because of a combination of massive initial overclock, declining interest in gaming, and finally a year ago a switch to linux. It just still works fast enough for me, and really it is quick. I did upgrade my video card a few times however (currently on an 8800GT with an overclock). Yeah, that is old too.

I just wanted to say, that my switch to linux, after a few unhappy stints with Ubuntu, is probably the only reason I still use this 5 year old PC. Otherwise I would have shelled out lots of money to keep current with Windows.

I now use Arch Linux (x86_64 version). www.archlinux.org. The best place to start is the Beginners Guide on the Wiki, and the Wiki is your best friend and of excellent quality https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners_Guide

I would recommend this linux to anybody who has previously tried Ubuntu for a few weeks but was unsatisfied. You MUST configure the system yourself, but that is what makes it so great. If the fonts bother you, install the windows fonts and change the aliasing options. Whatever it takes, it IS possible and you will learn lots. You get a fast, custom system, and learn the basics of linux in a way that Ubuntu will NEVER teach you. The Arch wiki and AUR (custom software installation) are great. Documentation is well above average. I cant recommend it enough. I tried ubuntu a few times (various flavors), but something would always screw up and a solution was hard to find. Google searches are futile with Ubuntu because there are so many similar (but really unrelated questions due to past versions), it sounds like your problem, but really isn't. With arch, just consult the wiki (in most cases, always try it first), or the manual (man command), or as a last resort the arch forums which are great. Arch also uses some aspects of BSD that make it easier to configure in relation to a standard Linux, although Arch is Linux. Hard to explain, but if you use it you will see (rc.conf for starts).

I am surprised that my system still runs after running it overvolt and overclocked for so long, and that my three HD's averaging about 4 years old now are all still working, but I really see NO REASON to upgrade at this point. This system is so fast and never locks up except when I boot into XP. XP has a tendency to just become unresponsive from .5 seconds to forever at times (even at stock clock and volt), so annoying. Arch never does that. Windows 7 or Vista would be even worse than XP when it comes to speed.

Sorry if this sounds like a true-believers rant, but I have had a great time with Linux after trying Arch, and it has taught so much to this 7+ year IT tech. You can do so much with shell scripting, and compiling programs from source, or even modifying programs before compilation is not as hard as it sounds. It has been less than a year since I started this, and really I am quite comfortable with it now (I was very intrigued after a day with arch, and completely sold after less than a month of hard work). At that point I even turned my 4+ year XP install into a virtual machine with Disk2vhd, although I will admit that I recently re-partitioned a drive to install XP and dual boot again. Don't worry, I ain't switching back to Windows as my main system any time soon...

Really, it is all about the distro, try more than one. I would recommend Arch, but each to their own. You WILL have to spend a week or two configuring to your hearts desire, but that is the point!

If gaming is the vast majority of your PC use I think it will be hard to develop the interest to do what I have. I still recommend trying various distros in a dual-boot for anybody though. You can learn a lot. Ubuntu was a good start, but so much more is out there.

Edit: For clarification, I use Arch X86_64 with Openbox as my Window manager (although you can use Gnome, KDE, or other desktop/window managers). You could even make it the same as Ubuntu in day to day use, but why do that? My preferred file manager is a combination of Thunar and Worker (I love Worker for the scripts you can make easily with it).


----------



## fatjake

Since there was recent question about Wine, I will share my experiences. The most recent game I care to play is Stalker: COP. It runs in Wine fine, as long as you do not care about Dynamic Lighting (I bet you do). This is because of a bug in Stalker, supposedly, but the Wine folk are not interesting in making fixes that only apply to one game, so the only fix for now is to play at a graphics level that corresponds roughly to DX8.

Either way, it runs a bit slower in wine. That is just one example, I played through it in Wine in Dx8 mode without problem, but I would not count on Wine to get you through all games, it is on a case by case basis.

Dual boot with XP or 7 if you are worried.

Like I said, I don't play games as much as before. I wish Wine worked better, but as it is developed by a small team, they don't wish to make individual fixes for specific games. I do believe that the future of Linux gaming is bright, and I think that the difference between linux and windows gaming will diminish as (frankly) high-end windows gaming diminishes.

Edit: if Photoshop is the main reason that you don't like linux, make an XP VM (or vista, or 7) in Virtualbox and run it in there. You can even run it in seamless mode where it appears as a regular window in your Linux desktop. It does take time spent in configuration, as with anything in Linux, but after a few months of config I spend very little time doing that kind of crap and I have a system that works how I want it to. Also, Adobe Flash works fine now in Linux, even in X86_64 (for me at least), I know this has been a long standing problem and it was a problem when I started. It has been working fine for about 6 months now though, I think they have it worked out. Hopefully Flash will be a non-issue for everybody in a few years, and it can join RealPlayer in the cemetery... lol


----------



## Transhour

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fatjake;12525582*
> 
> 
> Spoiler: readmore
> 
> 
> 
> I signed up on this forum really only to reply to this thread, although I will likely stick around.
> 
> I am running an AMD Opteron 165 @ 2610 MHZ (currently). The Opteron 165 was the primo overclocking chip for a long while before the C2D came out, and I used to run it at 2.8GHZ on stock cooler (got lucky, but after time thermal migration or some such caused me to lower it a bit, not a big deal).
> 
> Anyways, I still haven't upgraded mobo (DFI) and CPU because of a combination of massive initial overclock, declining interest in gaming, and finally a year ago a switch to linux. It just still works fast enough for me, and really it is quick. I did upgrade my video card a few times however (currently on an 8800GT with an overclock). Yeah, that is old too.
> 
> I just wanted to say, that my switch to linux, after a few unhappy stints with Ubuntu, is probably the only reason I still use this 5 year old PC. Otherwise I would have shelled out lots of money to keep current with Windows.
> 
> I now use Arch Linux (x86_64 version). www.archlinux.org. The best place to start is the Beginners Guide on the Wiki, and the Wiki is your best friend and of excellent quality https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners_Guide
> 
> I would recommend this linux to anybody who has previously tried Ubuntu for a few weeks but was unsatisfied. You MUST configure the system yourself, but that is what makes it so great. If the fonts bother you, install the windows fonts and change the aliasing options. Whatever it takes, it IS possible and you will learn lots. You get a fast, custom system, and learn the basics of linux in a way that Ubuntu will NEVER teach you. The Arch wiki and AUR (custom software installation) are great. Documentation is well above average. I cant recommend it enough. I tried ubuntu a few times (various flavors), but something would always screw up and a solution was hard to find. Google searches are futile with Ubuntu because there are so many similar (but really unrelated questions due to past versions), it sounds like your problem, but really isn't. With arch, just consult the wiki (in most cases, always try it first), or the manual (man command), or as a last resort the arch forums which are great. Arch also uses some aspects of BSD that make it easier to configure in relation to a standard Linux, although Arch is Linux. Hard to explain, but if you use it you will see (rc.conf for starts).
> 
> I am surprised that my system still runs after running it overvolt and overclocked for so long, and that my three HD's averaging about 4 years old now are all still working, but I really see NO REASON to upgrade at this point. This system is so fast and never locks up except when I boot into XP. XP has a tendency to just become unresponsive from .5 seconds to forever at times (even at stock clock and volt), so annoying. Arch never does that. Windows 7 or Vista would be even worse than XP when it comes to speed.
> 
> Sorry if this sounds like a true-believers rant, but I have had a great time with Linux after trying Arch, and it has taught so much to this 7+ year IT tech. You can do so much with shell scripting, and compiling programs from source, or even modifying programs before compilation is not as hard as it sounds. It has been less than a year since I started this, and really I am quite comfortable with it now (I was very intrigued after a day with arch, and completely sold after less than a month of hard work). At that point I even turned my 4+ year XP install into a virtual machine with Disk2vhd, although I will admit that I recently re-partitioned a drive to install XP and dual boot again. Don't worry, I ain't switching back to Windows as my main system any time soon...
> 
> Really, it is all about the distro, try more than one. I would recommend Arch, but each to their own. You WILL have to spend a week or two configuring to your hearts desire, but that is the point!
> 
> If gaming is the vast majority of your PC use I think it will be hard to develop the interest to do what I have. I still recommend trying various distros in a dual-boot for anybody though. You can learn a lot. Ubuntu was a good start, but so much more is out there.
> 
> Edit: For clarification, I use Arch X86_64 with Openbox as my Window manager (although you can use Gnome, KDE, or other desktop/window managers). You could even make it the same as Ubuntu in day to day use, but why do that? My preferred file manager is a combination of Thunar and Worker (I love Worker for the scripts you can make easily with it).


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fatjake;12525628*
> 
> 
> Spoiler: readmore
> 
> 
> 
> Since there was recent question about Wine, I will share my experiences. The most recent game I care to play is Stalker: COP. It runs in Wine fine, as long as you do not care about Dynamic Lighting (I bet you do). This is because of a bug in Stalker, supposedly, but the Wine folk are not interesting in making fixes that only apply to one game, so the only fix for now is to play at a graphics level that corresponds roughly to DX8.
> 
> Either way, it runs a bit slower in wine. That is just one example, I played through it in Wine in Dx8 mode without problem, but I would not count on Wine to get you through all games, it is on a case by case basis.
> 
> Dual boot with XP or 7 if you are worried.
> 
> Like I said, I don't play games as much as before. I wish Wine worked better, but as it is developed by a small team, they don't wish to make individual fixes for specific games. I do believe that the future of Linux gaming is bright, and I think that the difference between linux and windows gaming will diminish as (frankly) high-end windows gaming diminishes.
> 
> Edit: if Photoshop is the main reason that you don't like linux, make an XP VM (or vista, or 7) in Virtualbox and run it in there. You can even run it in seamless mode where it appears as a regular window in your Linux desktop. It does take time spent in configuration, as with anything in Linux, but after a few months of config I spend very little time doing that kind of crap and I have a system that works how I want it to. Also, Adobe Flash works fine now in Linux, even in X86_64 (for me at least), I know this has been a long standing problem and it was a problem when I started. It has been working fine for about 6 months now though, I think they have it worked out. Hopefully Flash will be a non-issue for everybody in a few years, and it can join RealPlayer in the cemetery... lol


welcome to the team









we have a devoted linux section, that you can find at:

here

I myself, use Ubuntu for my desktop(with kde workspace, kubuntu i dislike and there is a difference trust me







), slackware headless (no gui or monitor, ssh into when i need to do work







) for my file server and i use my laptop as a test bed for distro's, right now it has crunchbang on it.

I keep a copy of windows always installed, just incase, typically for web site testing (as i'm a website designer, and need to make sure things work correctly in the IE, i have xp loaded in 3 seperate VM's, one for each flavor of IE from 6 to 8, but since 9 is only available to 7...guess i will need to add one more, will be dropping support of IE 6 and 7 this summer tho, yippy!







)

I like ubuntu the best i do believe, the reason i like it, it as advanced as you want it to be, it is fully capable of doing what the other linux distro's do, nothing really stopping it







i like it cause of the repo's, yes they are a bit out of date compared to those of arch, but what they have in them is unmatched even by rpm repo's. i would run debian instead, but it is pita to run a mixed-repo installation of debian (dipping into testing and unstable repo's, and even using ubuntu debians or repo's, some enjoy the challenge, i personally don't.)

ubuntu's community is filled with noobs, one of the main reasons it is hard to find good "support" when you need it, typically you can find good support on linuxquestion.org, you can venture into debian land if you want to find help, but their community is a bit, not sure what to call them, brutish? they don't like noobs and they really don't like ubuntu users LOL.

arch i've tried, (if you can handle slackware you definitely can handle arch), i just didn't like it, there was a lot of little things i didn't like, it just wasn't one big thing, the lacking in their repo's was the biggest thing, and aur to me wasn't an acceptable add on, i found numerous problems using aur packages, and then updating my system (lot of the time it was dependency issues, they were easy to fixing, but annoying to have to fix them everytime running the update command.) i did get a hang of altering the PKGBUILDS file and storing my own locally vs using the ones in aur, the other problems i had with it was repositories fizzing out, i would choose the closest and fastest ones to me, and within a month i would be replacing them, cause they either stopped being arch repo's or they stopped updating (the first time this happened, was installing, and i chose a mirror in the mirrorlist, and it was 8months to a year old, and it installed all old packages, when i caught the error, i switched to a new repo, and did a system update, and it boinked the system, had to reinstall, which to me was unacceptable for me to take it serious as a committed distro, some suggested i should have done a netinstall vs a disc install, and i had done a netinstall when this occurred...)

It is a good distro, it just wasn't for me, and arch uses a *BSD style init, (it is different tho, slackware uses a true *BSD style init) which is what you were looking for. most linux distro's use this, as it was taken from *BSD, ubuntu uses upstart, which is something different.


----------



## mushroomboy

Quote:



Originally Posted by *transhour*


ubuntu's community is filled with noobs, one of the main reasons it is hard to find good "support" when you need it, typically you can find good support on linuxquestion.org, you can venture into debian land if you want to find help, but their community is a bit, not sure what to call them, brutish? they don't like noobs and they really don't like ubuntu users LOL.


That's a bit of an understatement....







Debian users tend to have a bunch of answers, mainly because the hardcore users have been around for a while (years). The problem is that they have been around a while and are tired of the same old scrub questions. It's like that stupid post in our own windows forum where a person asks why windows slows down after a while.... Ok, it gets answered and all is fine. Wait, less than a week later ANOTHER person asks why windows gets "rusty"..... It's like search, or even google doesn't exist.

My personal pet peeve is "I can't get Nvidia/ATi(AMD) to install". Seriously? Like there isn't a single hit on google from "install X linux"? I mean, how HARD is it? It just boggles my mind how dumb users can be while at the same time google is that popular.

[edit] Is there a correlation between Google's popularity and the Human race's intelligence?


----------



## Transhour

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mushroomboy*


That's a bit of an understatement....







Debian users tend to have a bunch of answers, mainly because the hardcore users have been around for a while (years). The problem is that they have been around a while and are tired of the same old scrub questions. It's like that stupid post in our own windows forum where a person asks why windows slows down after a while.... Ok, it gets answered and all is fine. Wait, less than a week later ANOTHER person asks why windows gets "rusty"..... It's like search, or even google doesn't exist.

My personal pet peeve is "I can't get Nvidia/ATi(AMD) to install". Seriously? Like there isn't a single hit on google from "install X linux"? I mean, how HARD is it? It just boggles my mind how dumb users can be while at the same time google is that popular.

[edit] Is there a correlation between Google's popularity and the Human race's intelligence?


my first serious run in with the "debian" crowd was about 4 years ago, i had added a repo to my ubuntu install, and it like totally boinked my source list. i wasn't able to retrieve any information or files from the other repo's, i tried everything, removed the source.list, replaced it with a geniric configed, i pleaded with the ubuntu community for help, not a single one of those noobs knew what the hell i was talking about.

so i resorted to going to the debian community for help the first person to respond said this:

"go back to windows nubtard, we don't need your stink here"

the second person to respond said this:

"that is what you get for adding a repository other than a debian stable".

then when i told them again i wasn't on debian, i was on ubuntu, all hell broke loose....

i finally found the solution to my problem, and it came oddly enough from a slackware user who had never touched a debian system, he was able to take my problem, look at the apt manpages and come up with a solution that worked (which i don't remember LOL)

the second run in with the "debian" crowd came about 8 months ago, remember that problem i was having with those I/O collisions on ext4 that was causing random freezes, which was similar to other problems that 10.04 was having, but none of the fixes worked for me. i went to the debian guys to see if i could gather more information, to see if my theory of what was going on had any merit (as the problem only occurred when i had ntfs drives mounted with ntfs-3g.)

their typical response were "why use ntfs, format to ext3." or "don't be a fool, don't trust your data to buggy ext4 and ntfs" or "ntfs is for losers."

like i said, to me the debian community are brutish, they don't like average users, and they absolutely hate ubuntu users, and any question that doesn't have all kinds of technobabble and nicely drawn out graphs, pie charts, and equations aren't taken seriously.


----------



## mushroomboy

LOL, that's horrid. I haven't been on the LQ forums for a while, mainly because of the amount of dumb users. I don't mean Ubuntu, I mean everyone. I find it best to use Google now for all my solutions, I'm just here out of boredom cause I don't game as much as I used to. lol I go through phases where I'm online a lot or I'm out partying. I bet in a year or two I'll have a job, money, women, and booz. It's a cycle, I'm used to it by now.


----------



## Nikkopo

Have been running Ubuntu for about 12 hours now and I completely love it so far!

Ubuntu Software Center is something that I really love. So simple and so good! Reminds me of Appstore/Android Market. Works like a charm!

The only downside I've found so far is that Skype lacks some things that can be used in Windows, but that's Skype's fault, not Ubuntu's.

And my 2 favorite games works aswell! So I'm all good

Loving it so far. Anyone got any tips for fun applications or something?

Cheers


----------



## mushroomboy

Chromium is one of my favorite games, always worth a shot and it's super hard. =(


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mushroomboy*


Chromium is one of my favorite games, always worth a shot and it's super hard. =(


Firefox will keep you entertained for hours, too.


----------



## mushroomboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error10;12551490*
> Firefox will keep you entertained for hours, too.


Not the browser, the GAME.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_B.S.U.

Chromium B.S.U. is am AMAZING game, freaking hard as crap too.


----------



## phazer11

One thing I might add is that most of the Adobe Products are not so available on Linux i.e. Photoshop. They can be run in WINE but it is recommended you just suck it up and use GIMP or such to replace it. I however have to use the adobe products so either Wine or Windows. And since Windows tends to be faster on Windows (and is the only OS that I've seen to support AVISynth which is all but a requirement for fansub encoders (although I think they are working on a linux port but it;ll be a while) so as the OP said 24/7 Linux is not for everyone but you can always dual boot and use Windows for the necessary evils of certain programs.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:



Originally Posted by *phazer11*


One thing I might add is that most of the Adobe Products are not so available on Linux i.e. Photoshop. They can be run in WINE but it is recommended you just suck it up and use GIMP or such to replace it. I however have to use the adobe products so either Wine or Windows. And since Windows tends to be faster on Windows (and is the only OS that I've seen to support AVISynth which is all but a requirement for fansub encoders (although I think they are working on a linux port but it;ll be a while) so as the OP said 24/7 Linux is not for everyone but you can always dual boot and use Windows for the necessary evils of certain programs.


There are a great many great encoding tools for Linux, and I know plenty of fansubbers who work under Linux.


----------



## strap624

I love linux, but I find installing software/drivers to sometimes be a real PAIN. I really don't understand th console commands. I can usually get things done but I always have to go online and read how to's.

But I use Ubuntu on my netbook and I have another pc with ubuntu that I use for folding.
I guess that it's just most of the things I do require windows.


----------



## Nugu

Over the last ~8 years I've tried multiple times to integrate linux into my life. I've had multiple distros on multiple platforms but every time I've ended up having to boot into windows due to some incompatibility or bug.

Originally I tried running linux on my old p4 "server"

The closest I ever came was with slackware on my laptop. I managed to get my wireless adapter going through ndiswrapper and everything but ran into issue with my shoddy intel integrated and poor mouse performance.

Then I tried MythBuntu on my HTPC but was stymied by lack of support for my (at the time) capture card.

Lastly I just today gave up on getting Mythbuntu to function properly. I got it set up in a jiffy, no problem (running off a USB drive no less, I loved that - but maybe why I had issues?). What sealed the deal was MythTV crashing every time I went to watch Live TV (recording worked fine, playback too). I hadn't even gotten to the point of solving mounting my ntfs (ext3/4 wasn't an option as it was already filled with data) drive yet or getting HDMI audio going.

I just want to say I love the idea of linux but can not see much use out of it other than browsing, casual entertainment, server services, or limited productivity applications on hardware that is known and supported by the distro. My next laptop will probably be a netbook and I hope to run it on linux, so I have not given up yet.


----------



## Transhour

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nugu;12801948*
> Over the last ~8 years I've tried multiple times to integrate linux into my life. I've had multiple distros on multiple platforms but every time I've ended up having to boot into windows due to some incompatibility or bug.
> 
> Originally I tried running linux on my old p4 "server"
> 
> The closest I ever came was with slackware on my laptop. I managed to get my wireless adapter going through ndiswrapper and everything but ran into issue with my shoddy intel integrated and poor mouse performance.
> 
> Then I tried MythBuntu on my HTPC but was stymied by lack of support for my (at the time) capture card.
> 
> Lastly I just today gave up on getting Mythbuntu to function properly. I got it set up in a jiffy, no problem (running off a USB drive no less, I loved that - but maybe why I had issues?). What sealed the deal was MythTV crashing every time I went to watch Live TV (recording worked fine, playback too). I hadn't even gotten to the point of solving mounting my ntfs (ext3/4 wasn't an option as it was already filled with data) drive yet or getting HDMI audio going.
> 
> I just want to say I love the idea of linux but can not see much use out of it other than browsing, casual entertainment, server services, or limited productivity applications on hardware that is known and supported by the distro. My next laptop will probably be a netbook and I hope to run it on linux, so I have not given up yet.


video4linux is constantly improving, what isn't supported in one kernel, might be supported in the next...it also might require configuring and compiling a new one









as for your "live tv" crashing, it honestly sounds like a graphics driver issue...what graphics card are you using in the htpc? are you using the open source drivers or proprietary drivers (if you are using these, are you on the latest ones?). i had this problem back in the day in windows xp (i know different OS), record and playback worked great, but when it came to watching live, either the tv tuner program would crash, or the OS would bsod, with a bit of research the version of nvidia drivers i was using, had issus with overlay. updating to the latest drivers fixed my issue, might fix yours as well...if you are on the latest...then i do apologize i do not know without knowing what error it is producing when it crashes.

mounting ntfs drives in linux is quite simple, open up a terminal and type in the following:

sudo blkid
Quote:


> /dev/sda1: UUID="ab49ab51-c46d-477a-a653-764499c4ad1a" TYPE="swap"
> /dev/sda2: UUID="d21667c4-3cfb-46a8-baf3-f07d89801b35" TYPE="ext2"
> /dev/sda3: UUID="3cf46b13-2a8a-4d9d-8bcc-087a88999acc" TYPE="ext4"
> /dev/sda4: UUID="9735a079-9692-44af-9a74-1d272cd46d58" TYPE="ext4"
> /dev/sdb1: LABEL="System Reserved" UUID="A090A68790A6638E" TYPE="ntfs"
> /dev/sdb2: UUID="1A48B9B148B98BCF" TYPE="ntfs"
> /dev/sdb3: UUID="43DB129C26C885CB" TYPE="ntfs"
> /dev/sdc1: LABEL="Drive_Two" UUID="28BCCF25BCCEEC7E" TYPE="ntfs"


it will produce something similar to this (don't use this one as this is from my computer and your uuid's are unique to your drives...) find your "ntfs" drive(s) you want to mount, highlight and copy the UUID="", you can open up gedit and past them there, if you are doing multiples.

next you want a place to mount it at, typically mounted drives either go in /media/ or you can place them in /home/, to keep it simple, we will use /media.

next in terminal:

sudo mkdir /media/movies

you can call "movies" anything you want, i'm just using this as an example.

next in terminal, type in:

sudo gedit /etc/fstab

start a new line, take your UUID you copied previously and place it there (remove the quotes)

put a space and next you want to indicate the mount point, so add:

/media/movies

put a space, next we will define what file system, in linux ntfs is:

ntfs-3g

put a space, now we want to define some options, not going into to much detail, i use "defaults", so add:

defaults

put a space, put a 0, put another space and another 0 (these last two entries are dump and pass...i use to know what they meant...but now i just put 0 0 for them...)

below is an example of what it would look like (minus the colors, just used them to distinguish between the different sections.)

Code:



Code:


UUID=28BCCF25BCCEEC7E /media/movies ntfs-3g defaults 0 0

save and close out gedit.

now i used uuid over absolute paths...this allows for great portability, so you can rearrang your drives, without have to resetup the fstab for the new path (as long you don't format the drive, it will forever keep the same uuid.) you can also use uuid for all your mounted drives, including grub2, to make it portable on a flash drive to be used in other machines...

now for your comment about the uses for linux, about the only thing i don't constantly use my linux install for is gaming...but i've been know from time to time to play around with wine, just to see if i can get a windows game to run in it







i am a enthusiast after all


----------



## EVILNOK

I'm not saying Linux isn't a good OS or saying Windows is better or anything like that. The reason most people don't use Linux (in my opinion anyway) is it is too difficult for the "average user" to get it going. I was trying to find a link to the March 2011 issue of CPU magazine. Theres a great article in there called "Warm Up To Penguins: Building Linux Part 1". The average computer user would take 1 look at that and be like "***". In the same issue theres another article called "PlayOnLinux: Cool!....Right?" for those interested.

Now I have tried Linux but because I spend most of my time gaming on the PC over other tasks its easier for me to just use Win7. I can do everything I need on 1 OS and not have to worry about dual booting or anything else. Its just simpler. Again, if things were different and I didn't spend most of my time gaming I would probably use Linux. @OP good thread though.


----------



## petran79

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *spice003;3142075*
> if somebody showed me linux and how to use it back when i started using pcs, i would be using linux now. But relearning the whole OS is hard, especially all of the commands. I mean u need to know the command just to install something, its just to complicated for me right now. They also need more driver support for simple stuff like Logitech mice for back and forward buttons, instead u have to configure files. I am not saying linux sucks cause i would gladly use it since its free but its too time consuming to learn it. But i got say with new releases coming out, i might switch in a year or two.


I assure you that a lot of Windows users (not all but a lot) would try everything to crack a program or disable Windows anti-piracy measures, things that are not always easy to do or include risk. If they do not know, they ask help from someone who does. Searching on the net for solving linux issues is much easier. If you include other pirated commercial software, from small applications like Virus scanners to heavy ones like Photoshop , Windows gets more attractive. There are also great freeware Windows applications but who bothers

Now ask Microsoft, do they prefer unavoidable pirated Windows and OS dominance or legal copies but drop in their share? Definitely the former (you cant have both....)

With linux distros I find Windows utilities like Virus scanners redundant. Only utility I paid for is Ultimate Defrag (linux does not need defrag) and I will not renew my Antivirus license.

I think that in a few years with the younger generation the mentality will change as Linux distros become more user friendly and popular.

As for games, if you mean the big productions, they moved to the consoles anyway and ever since the Xbox things got worse....


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EVILNOK;12876817*
> I'm not saying Linux isn't a good OS or saying Windows is better or anything like that. The reason most people don't use Linux (in my opinion anyway) is it is too difficult for the "average user" to get it going. I was trying to find a link to the March 2011 issue of CPU magazine. Theres a great article in there called "Warm Up To Penguins: Building Linux Part 1". The average computer user would take 1 look at that and be like "***". In the same issue theres another article called "PlayOnLinux: Cool!....Right?" for those interested.
> 
> Now I have tried Linux but because I spend most of my time gaming on the PC over other tasks its easier for me to just use Win7. I can do everything I need on 1 OS and not have to worry about dual booting or anything else. Its just simpler. Again, if things were different and I didn't spend most of my time gaming I would probably use Linux. @OP good thread though.


Eh? The "average" user wouldn't be reading CPU Magazine in the first place. It does stand for "Computer Power User" after all.







Certainly a place I would expect to find something about compiling the kernel.

As for PlayOnLinux, I'm not surprised they had lots of problems. They used Ubuntu, after all, which ships with an old and much more buggy version of Wine. Ubuntu is not usually where I'd send someone who wants to try playing Windows games on Linux, precisely because it doesn't work out of the box (and Ubuntu did this intentionally). To be fair, somebody has a PPA which tracks the current Wine release, but using a PPA isn't exactly a noob-friendly affair.


----------



## Devoid

*Showing People the Light*
I've recently done a research report on Linux for a Technical Communications course. 3 out of the 5 people in my group had never used anything other than a Windows OS, the other 2 (myself included) run Linux as our main OS. Our whole research project has been about trying to introduce Linux, open source and free software to a group of people that have never tried or even heard of such things.

After around 2 weeks into the project one of our group members completely removed Windows from all 3 of his computers and now runs Linux exclusively. Another group member runs dual boot systems as well as a freeNAS server (not Linux, but hey, BSD is awesome too). The last group member has yet to see the light, but oh well to each his own.

The absolutely awesome part is that we have converted 5 other people (in this 20 person class) to Linux, including the professor! In just 2 months, 7 people who have never looked beyond Windows are now running Linux/BSD systems and loving every second of it.

*My Issue With OS "Fanboys"*
My feeling is that everyone needs to stop looking at the limitations of certain operating systems for starters. It seems that everyone on the Linux side of things spend time talking about what Windows CAN'T do and everyone on the Windows side of things only point out what Linux CAN'T do.

I've never understood why people feel the need to talk up their PS3 by pointing out the flaws in an Xbox. And you can tell by the majority of posts here that an abundance of people are here to tell Linux users that their OS isn't as good as Windows for X and Y reasons rather than do as the OP suggests and give Linux a shot if they would feel so inclined.

These posts are great for showing the carpenters a new saw, the problem is that all the painters show up and complain that its not a paint brush.

~Devoid~


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Funnily enough, I'm just about to download and install a version of Linux onto WKS04 as an alternate boot option - though it would live on a separate HDD, and the way I'd need to swap between them would be to switch the HDD cables over...

I've tried Ubuntu (and, to a lesser extent, Kubuntu) before, but as there were too many things I needed to do in M$, I rarely used them....other than simply having them there to fiddle with if/as/when I had a chance..

I haven't yet settled on which Linux install I'm gonna go for, but I want to be able to access my Active Directory structure, and [most usefully] boost my PPD in Folding (so I want it to be as resource light as possible!!) in addition to needing to open XLS/XLSX spreadies and access my e-banking sites....at least one of which seems to insist on using IE (even IETab in FF doesn't work







) to get in..


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man;12927592*
> Funnily enough, I'm just about to download and install a version of Linux onto WKS04 as an alternate boot option - though it would live on a separate HDD, and the way I'd need to swap between them would be to switch the HDD cables over...


There's not usually a need to do that.

Though, if you're still trying things out, I suggest installing to a USB stick, or an external HD.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man;12927592*
> I've tried Ubuntu (and, to a lesser extent, Kubuntu) before, but as there were too many things I needed to do in M$, I rarely used them....other than simply having them there to fiddle with if/as/when I had a chance..


I've tried Windows before, but there were too many things I needed to do in Linux, so I rarely used Windows...except to run Windows Update every time I booted it. Hardly ever did anything else.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man;12927592*
> I haven't yet settled on which Linux install I'm gonna go for, but I want to be able to access my Active Directory structure, and [most usefully] boost my PPD in Folding (so I want it to be as resource light as possible!!) in addition to needing to open XLS/XLSX spreadies and access my e-banking sites....at least one of which seems to insist on using IE (even IETab in FF doesn't work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) to get in..


I'm sure that's illegal in some countries.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error10;12927620*
> I'm sure that's illegal in some countries.


Here's what I get when I go into Egg with FF:
Quote:


> *Important*
> 
> To see your other bank account balances on this PC, you need Internet Explorer 6.0 or above. Find out how to install Internet Explorer here.


----------



## Devoid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man;12927592*
> I haven't yet settled on which Linux install I'm gonna go for, but I want to be able to access my Active Directory structure, and [most usefully] boost my PPD in Folding (so I want it to be as resource light as possible!!) in addition to needing to open XLS/XLSX spreadies and access my e-banking sites....at least one of which seems to insist on using IE (even IETab in FF doesn't work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) to get in..


Novell's SUSE operating systems have always been designed to work well with Active Directory and other windows services, at least their enterprise server and workstation version, not too sure about openSUSE. I also assume Fedora (being built by Red Hat) would be compatible with Active Directory. To keep it lightweight you could use LXDE or just a simple Window Manager (which is a little more advanced).

As for opening MS XML formats, LibreOffice doesn't seem to have any of the troubles some people had with OpenOffice. Personally I haven't had a single file not open or save improperly.

As for IE, I guess your somewhat stuck there. I suppose you could run it in WINE?

If not, Linux will always be waiting if and when things change.









~Devoid~


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Devoid*


Novell's SUSE operating systems have always been designed to work well with Active Directory and other windows services, at least their enterprise server and workstation version, not too sure about openSUSE. I also assume Fedora (being built by Red Hat) would be compatible with Active Directory. To keep it lightweight you could use LXDE or just a simple Window Manager (which is a little more advanced).

As for opening MS XML formats, LibreOffice doesn't seem to have any of the troubles some people had with OpenOffice. Personally I haven't had a single file not open or save improperly.

As for IE, I guess your somewhat stuck there. I suppose you could run it in WINE?

If not, Linux will always be waiting if and when things change.









~Devoid~


I'm up and running (just not Folding







) in ubuntu 10.04 and it doesn't seem to have changed since 9.04 that I was using before...

The main thing I'm trying to get sorted at the moment is why [email protected] is complaining that the WUs are too big...









I'm sure there will be some other niggles along the way, but as long as I can get this sorted, I'll be happy enough...for now..


----------



## choLOL

I have a notebook with linux (ubuntu, iirc) on it, my only complaint is that it's hard for a *total newb* like me to install stuff on it. lol. Those codes can be confusing.

If I remember correctly, it took me 3hours or so to have firefox installed.









*I'm not blaming/hating on Linux*, but honestly, Linux can be hard to work with at first - especially if you take Linux head on without reading about it beforehand (just like me. rofl).


----------



## manifest3r

Quote:



Originally Posted by *choLOL*


I have a notebook with linux (ubuntu, iirc) on it, my only complaint is that it's hard for a *total newb* like me to install stuff on it. lol. Those codes can be confusing.

If I remember correctly, it took me 3hours or so to have firefox installed.









*I'm not blaming Linux*, but honestly, Linux can be hard to work with at first - especially if you took Linux head on without reading about it beforehand (just like me. rofl).


In ubuntu it's really easy, it should have come preloaded with firefox. If it didn't, you have the software center.










Or just use the terminal

Code:


Code:


sudo apt-get install firefox

With a little time you get used to it, but remember kids, Google is your friend!


----------



## BlackVenom

I wish linux had support for Optimus. I'd use it on my lappy...


----------



## choLOL

@manifest3r, Maybe it's time to try to go at it again. Haha. I did not know that existed. Thanks.


----------



## mike44njdevils

So, yeah, this post is to subscribe to the thread as well as say i'm going to read through all the pages. I'm a folder, and rarely game, so I don't see why I shouldn't try this out


----------



## jjsoviet

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mike44njdevils*


So, yeah, this post is to subscribe to the thread as well as say i'm going to read through all the pages. I'm a folder, and rarely game, so I don't see why I shouldn't try this out










I've tried Ubuntu when my high school started to use Linux for computer labs, and the experience was actually great. I loved how it has most of the stuff Windows has - and also features a nice repository for additional components. The large potential for customization is a real treat for me, especially as I have experience in Android.

The lack of support for games (or rather, lack of developers' support for Linux) has been a major problem for me though. I currently have tons of games in my PC and I don't want to part with them lol. If somehow more games support the OS, I would be more than happy to switch.


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man;12927962*
> Here's what I get when I go into Egg with FF:


I don't even know what that is or what country you're in.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error10;12934510*
> I don't even know what that is or what country you're in.


Quote:


> Location: Online/Land Of Eng


Egg Money Manager:
http://new.egg.com/visitor/0,,3_48814--View_845,00.html?refer=pp4

Basically, it is a one-stop centralised location for all of your other e-banking accounts...which is handy if, like me, you've got 10 accounts with 7 different providers..

http://www.egg.com/

EDIT: Attaching screenie, one in IE which works, one in IE Tab that doesn't get any further than what is shown:


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man;12935230*
> http://www.egg.com/


So you're in the UK then? It's probably a violation of the Equality Act 2010 (formerly the Disability Discrimination Act). Though to get anything done about it, you'll probably have to find a person whose disability requires them to use something other than IE.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

I think they've managed to wangle their way out of any potential issues, as you can freely log into your [my] Egg details without any issues, regardless of which OS/browser you happen to be using......you _only have an issue when trying to use the 'plugin' to connect to third party sites, which is prolly a limitation in their own application...

I don't have to use the plugin, just that I need it (and therefore, need to use IE) if I want to use their web portal to connect into the other sites.._


----------



## Transhour

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error10;12935676*
> So you're in the UK then? It's probably a violation of the Equality Act 2010 (formerly the Disability Discrimination Act). Though to get anything done about it, you'll probably have to find a person whose disability requires them to use something other than IE.


i think that is a bit of stretch to that law tho









i avoid "IE" only sites/business's like the plague, there aren't a whole lot of them. if IE 9 keeps the trend to being more compliant, we might in the near future stop seeing "IE only" sites/portals/etc...one can hope









we will only be so lucky, to see a truly "neutral" web...where it doesn't matter what OS or browser you're on...

all my online banking and paypal, can be used in the alternate browsers, it hasn't effected me much, but the day it does, is the day i will find a bank that respects my right of choice







(j/k i have vmwares for a reason).


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *transhour;12935827*
> i think that is a bit of stretch to that law tho


There is a similar law in the US, 'Section 508' (but it only applies to government agencies and contractors) in addition to the Americans with Disabilities Act. Section 508 has been interpreted to require that sites be usable from, e.g., text-only browsers. An IE-only site could not possibly achieve Section 508 compliance.


----------



## Transhour

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


There is a similar law in the US, 'Section 508' (but it only applies to government agencies and contractors) in addition to the Americans with Disabilities Act. Section 508 has been interpreted to require that sites be usable from, e.g., text-only browsers. An IE-only site could not possibly achieve Section 508 compliance.


i would imagine the use of a "text-only" browser would fall under "cruel and unusual punishment" section of the 8th amendment







(j/k)

just looked up "section 508", is that why all government and related websites look like the came out of 1996, to comply with the "requirements" set out in that section?


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *transhour;13005688*
> just looked up "section 508", is that why all government and related websites look like the came out of 1996, to comply with the "requirements" set out in that section?


No, it's entirely possible to create a fully accessible site that looks like it was designed recently, and uses all the latest cool stuff. The government is just a bunch of morons.


----------



## Paratrooper1n0

Had it for 3 months as a replacement for Windows Shista, then went to Windows 7 Ultimate (was given to me by a friend).


----------



## Devoid

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Paratrooper1n0*


Had it for 3 months as a replacement for Windows Shista, then went to Windows 7 Ultimate (was given to me by a friend).


Probably want to keep that on the DL seeing as its illegal and all.

~Devoid~


----------



## Paratrooper1n0

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Devoid*


Probably want to keep that on the DL seeing as its illegal and all.

~Devoid~


It's illegal to resell software. If it was illegal to give software to others millions of people would be in prison right now. Besides the copy of Win 7 Ultimate was still sealed.


----------



## Devoid

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Paratrooper1n0*


It's illegal to resell software. If it was illegal to give software to others millions of people would be in prison right now. Besides the copy of Win 7 Ultimate was still sealed.


Haha usually when someone "gives you software" its pirated or copied (especially Windows). The way you worded it didn't clarify that it was a legitimate copy. My bad









~Devoid~


----------



## Paratrooper1n0

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Devoid*


Haha usually when someone "gives you software" its pirated or copied (especially Windows). The way you worded it didn't clarify that it was a legitimate copy. My bad









~Devoid~


Yeah, you shouldn't always assume that it was pirated. Yes I have a backup disc, and have an ISO on my computer but that is all from the O.D. It's not illegal to make copies either as people do not understand, it's only illegal if you sell copies or resell the O.D. I will assume that anything would be given via physical form unless they say otherwise.


----------



## Devoid

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Paratrooper1n0*


It's not illegal to make copies either as people do not understand, it's only illegal if you sell copies or resell the O.D. I will assume that anything would be given via physical form unless they say otherwise.


Not necessarily true. When you buy Windows you pay for a license key. This key is meant to be used on no more than one computer. If your friend burned you a copy and you used the same key, even if he gave it to you free, it would be illegal.

~Devoid~


----------



## Paratrooper1n0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Devoid;13066011*
> Not necessarily true. When you buy Windows you pay for a license key. This key is meant to be used on no more than one computer. If your friend burned you a copy and you used the same key, even if he gave it to you free, it would be illegal.
> 
> ~Devoid~


I burned the copy. *Facepalm* Please read carefully next time. He gave me a SEALED copy of Windows 7. I burned a backup. Note the word "I".


----------



## rdrdrdrd

i love Linux, i have a mainly command line craptop for internet, it works wonderfully, but i currently prefer windows on my more powerful pcs due to the fact that 7 runs with very little of my system assets and allows me to game, and not have to select a os at startup, also, a previous Linux dual boot corrupted my windows 7 boot for some reason and it would only boot after several attempts


----------



## Devoid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Paratrooper1n0;13066422*
> I burned the copy. *Facepalm* Please read carefully next time. He gave me a SEALED copy of Windows 7. I burned a backup. Note the word "I".


I know, I know, I read that haha. Just trying to explain/defend my logic is all.

~Devoid~


----------



## Paratrooper1n0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Devoid;13077167*
> I know, I know, I read that haha. Just trying to explain/defend my logic is all.
> 
> ~Devoid~


When your logic is failing, all that is left is to give up... or face being trolled.


----------



## wongwarren

Linux can't run my game, so no thanks


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:



Originally Posted by *wongwarren*


Linux can't run my game, so no thanks 


What game is it that you're trying to run..?


----------



## StormXLR

The thing is... i mostly bench,game and practice UDK on my system , sure stuff like web and ms word. 
I would love to use Linux i tried to get into it once but i couldnt get UDK on it, none of the games would "JUST" run so there isnt any point for me going Linux as its just too much of a pain to actually log off and boot up dif os just to run a simple task like WoW while im just waiting for something.


----------



## Randallrocks

Switching from 7 to Debian today. Wish me luck!


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallrocks;13097141*
> Switching from 7 to Debian today. Wish me luck!


Errr, good luck...!

Shouldn't have too much of an issue - when I tried it [again] at the end of last month (using 10.04, IIRC) it now even gives you the option to [easily] get it to dual-boot right from the get-go......







(Now I just need to work out how to change the default...







)


----------



## jdcrispe95

only if Linux supported .exe


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *jdcrispe95*


only if Linux supported .exe










What does that mean?


----------



## Paratrooper1n0

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


What does that mean?


.exe - executable.
Simple. Most PC users should know this. Especially if you have downloaded anything using Linux Mint.


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Paratrooper1n0*


.exe - executable.
Simple. Most PC users should know this. Especially if you have downloaded anything using Linux Mint.


I know what an executable is. It's the person I quoted whose statement didn't make sense.


----------



## Simple_echo

Okay, so I'm giving this challenge a go one more time. Plan on using it for a couple weeks this time to see what happens, but I'm running into a road block at the moment.

I'm using Ubuntu because it is the most noob friendly, and I installed KDE using the terminal. I got KDE running now, but for some reason it will not let me have my primary monitor on the right instead of the left. I can switch them around all day long with the settings and it always gives the task bar to the monitor on the left. Before I installed KDE it was working the way I wanted without a problem. I'm hoping someone has a fix for this, I work better with it on the right monitor because of the way my desk is arranged.

I think it's fair to not want an OS make you have to rearrange your desk, haha


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Simple_echo;13104414*
> Okay, so I'm giving this challenge a go one more time. Plan on using it for a couple weeks this time to see what happens, but I'm running into a road block at the moment.
> 
> I'm using Ubuntu because it is the most noob friendly, and I installed KDE using the terminal. I got KDE running now, but for some reason it will not let me have my primary monitor on the right instead of the left. I can switch them around all day long with the settings and it always gives the task bar to the monitor on the left. Before I installed KDE it was working the way I wanted without a problem. I'm hoping someone has a fix for this, I work better with it on the right monitor because of the way my desk is arranged.
> 
> I think it's fair to not want an OS make you have to rearrange your desk, haha


There are two ways, I think, to do this. The easy way and the hard way.

The easy way, if it works, is this: Right click a blank space on the panel, choose Panel Options, then Panel Settings. The panel will expand a bit, and you'll see something like Screen Edge which, if you click and hold, you can drag the panel elsewhere. Try dragging it to the other monitor.

If that doesn't work, here's the hard way:

For this, KDE cannot be running, so login to GNOME instead. Use an editor to open the file ~.kde/share/config/plasma-desktop-appletsrc . It looks like a typical ini file. Search the file for the string "plugin=panel" (without the quotes). Somewhere very nearby will be a line "screen=0" (though it may not be 0). If it says screen=0, change it to screen=1. If it says screen=1, change it to screen=0. The number SHOULD match the monitor number displayed in the KDE Multiple Monitors system settings panel. Save and exit the file. Logout and log back in to KDE.


----------



## armourcore9brker

I've been dual-booting Linux and Win7 for the past 4-5 months.

Tried dabbling in it back when it was Jaunty Jackelope (forget the exact number). What happened back then that put me off was that every time I ran the updates, it wouldn't boot after that. I know now (after having experienced it multiple times and looking it up to fix it) that it was the problem with updating the Kernel causes Nvidia & AMD drivers to freak out. So that ended it for me for a while.

Started out recently on Xubuntu-x86 10.10, set it up with an OS partition for Windows, OS partition for Xubuntu and the extended partition for media files. Spent a long time transferring files from the ntfs partition over to the ext4, reduce the size of the ntfs, expand the ext4, repeat multiple times. Then I had to go and fubar the whole thing when Gparted live moved my entire Win7 partition over by 5 mb. Many bad decisions later and I decided to reformat the whole HDD (all of this is from a laptop so only 1 drive), amazingly I was still able to recover anything that was on the ext4 partitions... ntfs? Not so much.

Went with Kubuntu-64 10.10 and liked it for a while, then I hit a bunch of bugs with it, sure it would crash sometimes or freeze for a few minutes, but I didn't immediately run away back to Win7. Just work through everything, search forums, search google, almost all my problems had been experienced before and were well documented. Mixed up problems with a language, all my menus were in Japanese, tried something wrong and found that my environment file was wiped out, so all the basic commands in Terminal were gone, hell even "ls" and "sudo" didn't work. Unfortunately, I also ran into the Kernel update problem again (this was/is the last time I swear!) so here I was, I could fix the environment file with a gui and to fix the gui I needed to use a CLI to reset Xorg. Headaches ensued for a while.

Eventually got tired of the bugs with KDE and switched to Gnome. Works really well, now I am running 11.04 Natty Narwhal Beta and I am liking it. Unity is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be, sure the buttons are larger and tablet optimized, but all the important apps I use all the time I have the Terminal commands memorized.

I still have to use Win7 mainly for programming in LabView and some gaming (too much school, so little time). A major point that people bring up is all the extra time spent looking up fixes. People here spend a ton of time perfecting their overclock and sometimes for a simple 5 minute benchmark. I am not hating on overclocking but, a 20 minute search on Google for a problem solved permanently is perfectly fine with me.

Linux is a great way to learn what is really going on in an OS and is rapidly evolving faster than any large corporation can hope to keep up with. Now true Microsoft and Apple have tons of money to throw at R&D, but in reality how often do they really listen to the consumer? Yes, they might accept your input but ultimately they will do what is best for them and their profits. Linux gives the developers and the users to get exactly what they want. If they make a bad decision and it is received poorly, they don't lose profit. People might move away from them for a bit but that just forces them to redouble their efforts and make something incredible. I heard it before on the thread. The true joy of Linux is the choice that the user has. Since Linux for the large majority of people is free, you do not feel bound to any one flavor of Linux. You won't lose any money from hopping back and forth across the different distros.

tl;dr I ran into a lot of problems initially with Linux, about 95% of them were my own mistakes and I learned a lot from it and I absolutely love Linux. Having said that, I also understand the uses of Windows and the use of it for niche programs (Photoshop or LabView or Gaming). As it stands right now I can't completely cut myself off from either one of the OSes. From my perspective, Linux has the flexibility to change with the times and adapt to best fit the people's needs and wants. Windows will be the industry standard for many years to come. Neither are utterly useless and neither can completely fulfill every role of the other OS.

Next, I'll start delving into the other distros and really see what is out there.


----------



## Simple_echo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


There are two ways, I think, to do this. The easy way and the hard way.

The easy way, if it works, is this: Right click a blank space on the panel, choose Panel Options, then Panel Settings. The panel will expand a bit, and you'll see something like Screen Edge which, if you click and hold, you can drag the panel elsewhere. Try dragging it to the other monitor.

If that doesn't work, here's the hard way:

For this, KDE cannot be running, so login to GNOME instead. Use an editor to open the file ~.kde/share/config/plasma-desktop-appletsrc . It looks like a typical ini file. Search the file for the string "plugin=panel" (without the quotes). Somewhere very nearby will be a line "screen=0" (though it may not be 0). If it says screen=0, change it to screen=1. If it says screen=1, change it to screen=0. The number SHOULD match the monitor number displayed in the KDE Multiple Monitors system settings panel. Save and exit the file. Logout and log back in to KDE.


Thank you so much, the easy way worked. I would of never thought about just trying to move the panel itself.


----------



## Higgins

I keep wanting to put linux on my laptop, but the dual GPU setup it has only functions properly under windows. Too much of a headache to shut off the dedicated geforce card every time i would start up or resume from standby/hibernate. Wouldn't be that big of a deal if the geforce card didn't cut the battery life from 10 hours down to 4.

Maybe eventually i'll go 100% linux on one of my computers.


----------



## jdcrispe95

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


I know what an executable is. It's the person I quoted whose statement didn't make sense.


i would use linux if it could play games and use some programs


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *jdcrispe95*


i would use linux if it could play games and use some programs


Ah, now that makes sense. All I ever play is WoW and that runs pretty much flawlessly. (Unless I go into the Valley of Lag or something, but that's not Linux-specific.)


----------



## Simple_echo

Okay, I tried my hardest to give Linux more of a chance, but it's just not for me. It's great for tinkering with, but when I need to do work, it just doesn't cut it for me.

I tried using Gimp to replace Photoshop, but the workflow is just so much better in Photoshop for me. And there is no point to specializing in Gimp, since most people in a work environment (IE: not a one person freelancer) will expect you to work with Photoshop. I also use other programs in the Adobe suite that I didn't expect to find replacements for on Linux, but it is still one more inconvenience for me.

When it comes to word processing Open Office is great. I use it as well as Neo Office (Mac equivalent) in Windows and OS X, but I don't see the point in switching an OS just to write a document.

Linux was great for working with Ruby, especially compared to Windows, but I get the same experience on OS X since it is built on Unix. Even comes with Ruby, PHP, and all that sweet jazz already installed.

About the only thing productivity wise that could make me stick with Linux is if it has a holy grail of a text editor that puts TextMate to shame.

Now for goofing off, Linux isn't very useful for me either. All my games are for Windows, and I can't even run Netflix on it because of Silverlight. I realize there are ways around this, but what's the point when they will run better on the OS I have to use anyways?


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Simple_echo;13119362*
> I tried using Gimp to replace Photoshop, but the workflow is just so much better in Photoshop for me. And there is no point to specializing in Gimp, since most people in a work environment (IE: not a one person freelancer) will expect you to work with Photoshop. I also use other programs in the Adobe suite that I didn't expect to find replacements for on Linux, but it is still one more inconvenience for me.


Fair enough. Gimp is fine for most people, but not all, and it does take some getting used to if you've used Photoshop. And of course there's still something of a need for tools comparable to the other Adobe CS components.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Simple_echo;13119362*
> About the only thing productivity wise that could make me stick with Linux is if it has a holy grail of a text editor that puts TextMate to shame.


Depends in large part on what you want in a text editor; TextMate does many things and it's not likely that you use all of them. There are several possibilities here, such as Bluefish, Geany, Scite, UltraEdit ($), or even emacs. I personally prefer my editors as minimal as possible, so I almost always use vi(m).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Simple_echo;13119362*
> Now for goofing off, Linux isn't very useful for me either. All my games are for Windows, and I can't even run Netflix on it because of Silverlight. I realize there are ways around this, but what's the point when they will run better on the OS I have to use anyways?


I canceled Netflix and as long as it is inaccessible to Linux they won't get another dime from me. Of course I realize not everyone can make that choice. I can't tell you what I use as an alternative, though I imagine you can probably guess.


----------



## Simple_echo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error10;13119827*
> Depends in large part on what you want in a text editor; TextMate does many things and it's not likely that you use all of them. There are several possibilities here, such as Bluefish, Geany, Scite, UltraEdit ($), or even emacs. I personally prefer my editors as minimal as possible, so I almost always use vi(m).


Having bundles that will run or validate code, highlighting key words, automatically adding characters such as closing brackets and quotes. Creating new documents from templates that already have all requirements typed out, such as the doctype in a html file. Also, word completion, and keyboard shortcuts for commenting text in various languages.

I'm sure Linux has something that would make me happy, and I'll admit that I didn't bother looking very hard.


----------



## evermooingcow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Simple_echo;13119920*
> Having bundles that will run or validate code, highlighting key words, automatically adding characters such as closing brackets and quotes. Creating new documents from templates that already have all requirements typed out, such as the doctype in a html file. Also, word completion, and keyboard shortcuts for commenting text in various languages.
> 
> I'm sure Linux has something that would make me happy, and I'll admit that I didn't bother looking very hard.


If you run a home server Linux would work wonders for that.


----------



## Simple_echo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *evermooingcow*


If you run a home server Linux would work wonders for that.


Sorry you lost me, how does a home server work as a text editor?


----------



## evermooingcow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Simple_echo;13120052*
> Sorry you lost me, how does a home server work as a text editor?


I meant as a reply to your last comment
Quote:


> I'm sure Linux has something that would make me happy


You don't necessarily have to run it on your desktop machine.


----------



## MarkG

Quote:



Originally Posted by *RickJS*


I second this motion, the only problem I've had with vista is theres this one small windows update that won't install and its annoying.


you guy's obviously don't do much in Windowws then.....


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *MarkG*


you guy's obviously don't do much in Windowws then.....










I don't do much gaming. Why should I bother with Windows?


----------



## Simple_echo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *evermooingcow*


I meant as a reply to your last comment 
You don't necessarily have to run it on your desktop machine.


I see, I guess I could use Linux just as a home server, it would probably be great for that. I actually have a very old HP that Linux might be able to breath new life into.

The last comment wasn't referring to Linux in general though, I was just referring to text editors, because I'm sure Linux has a text editor that would make me happy.

Somehow I managed to screw up my Ubuntu install while trying to get Vim working. So I'm going to try openSuse today.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Simple_echo;13125259*
> I see, I guess I could use Linux just as a home server, it would probably be great for that. I actually have a very old HP that Linux might be able to breath new life into.
> 
> The last comment wasn't referring to Linux in general though, I was just referring to text editors, because I'm sure Linux has a text editor that would make me happy.
> 
> Somehow I managed to screw up my Ubuntu install while trying to get Vim working. So I'm going to try openSuse today.


Really? Remember to use a package manager, the big two dogs in text editing are Vim and Emacs, but there are many others out there as well.


----------



## Liighthead

i would be, but i randomly play a game now and then >.<
might give it a try on my lappy though..

but i dont want to have to restart my computer to play a game, i might play for 20min.. maby 4 or 5 hours lol...

and i mostly leave my computer running or in sleep mode. so just press a button and type in pw.. and into windows in like 10 seconds lol..

guessing theirs no way around the games problem?


----------



## zynix

Alright, this is my try.

I've been using Linux (first Linux Mint, then Fedora) for a few months. A week ago Linux Mint partition got full and damaged the file system (FAT32) on my USB flash drive, so I wiped it and installed Fedora 15 Alpha hoping that it won't happen again. Now I'm faced with another issue - Catalyst drivers! When I try to install them through console, setup doesn't recognize the OS as a supported Linux distro and fails to install.

And yes, it is a big disadvantage that Linux doesn't have developed support for Windows games, but there's not much you can do against it except submitting Wine logs to WineHQ to help them develop Wine as a well done emulation layer for Windows applications and games.


----------



## Transhour

why were you running mint on fat32?


----------



## zynix

Mint was installed on an ext partition, and the flash drive was fat32.


----------



## Transhour

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zynix;13176779*
> Mint was installed on an ext partition, and the flash drive was fat32.


oh the way you wrote it, sounded like you had it on fat32...how did it damage it?


----------



## zynix

Nevermind.

Regarding the damage, I totally don't know. Just shut down the PC, booted up and voila! Half of the files on my USB were missing.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zynix;13176829*
> Nevermind.
> 
> Regarding the damage, I totally don't know. Just shut down the PC, booted up and voila! Half of the files on my USB were missing.


Just restore from a backup then...


----------



## zynix

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man*


Just restore from a backup then...


Err...what backup? I would never expect that such thing would happen to me. BTW, Linux (in this case LM10, GNOME, i386) is capable to destroy both of the file systems simultaneously whilst doing backup or restoring from the aforementioned failure (if I did a backup, which I didn't).

Now, this is a thing with which I can't live, sorry.









I can't say Windows is perfect, it has it's drawbacks also, but it's stable, fast and reliable.

'till that issue isn't fixed I will stick with Windoze.


----------



## Spooony

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AvalancheX;3141949*
> Couldn't of put it better myself, the most perfect of counter arguements.
> +Rep.
> 
> Not that there is anything 'wrong' with Linux par-ce


and? Virtual machine? Extra security use the virtual machine to browse the web inspect stuff you get you can even put clamwin on there and not use windows to surf the net as you won't need a antivirus in it then. You can use the virtual machine->linux as your firewall and av.

I love linux ok nmap don't work so good on windows but I love linux bash bash bash ooh I got root


----------



## Spooony

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Liighthead;13147516*
> i would be, but i randomly play a game now and then >.<
> might give it a try on my lappy though..
> 
> but i dont want to have to restart my computer to play a game, i might play for 20min.. maby 4 or 5 hours lol...
> 
> and i mostly leave my computer running or in sleep mode. so just press a button and type in pw.. and into windows in like 10 seconds lol..
> 
> guessing theirs no way around the games problem?


lol just install linux on a virtual machine inside windows voila that's all


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:



Originally Posted by *zynix*


Err...what backup? I would never expect that such thing would happen to me. BTW, Linux (in this case LM10, GNOME, i386) is capable to destroy both of the file systems simultaneously whilst doing backup or restoring from the aforementioned failure (if I did a backup, which I didn't).

Now, this is a thing with which I can't live, sorry.









I can't say Windows is perfect, it has it's drawbacks also, but it's stable, fast and reliable.

'till that issue isn't fixed I will stick with Windoze.


If you don't have a backup, it is just as well you don't/didn't have any important files then...









Seriously, that's kinda what I'd implied in my initial response...all important files are included in a proven backup solution, anything that isn't backed up *CANNOT* be called important..


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Ive read this thread and many other "try linix" threads, I gatta say I would love to use it! Then I realize I spend 95% of my computing time in a game... Kinda sucks cus I'm sold on Linix being a fun option to run but no gaming make's it realy difficult to actualy try it out lol...

I say we start a patition and get some Video Game Makers to support linix!!!

I know, It will probly never happen







i will be using it when i build my sandy bridge PC...to help save initial costs







but that will be a window's computer aswell..its for gaming too lol.

I have thought about resurecting a dead computer I have laying around, to use. Use the powerfull gaming rig for game's and linix for the little other things i do









@OP great thread! +rep!


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing;13315524*
> Ive read this thread and many other "try linix" threads, I gatta say I would love to use it! Then I realize I spend 95% of my computing time in a game... Kinda sucks cus I'm sold on Linix being a fun option to run but *no gaming m*ake's it realy difficult to actualy try it out lol...
> 
> I say we start a patition and get some Video Game Makers to support linix!!!
> I know, It will probly never happen i will be using it when i build my sandy bridge PC...to help save initial costs but that will be a window's computer aswell..its for gaming too lol.
> I have thought about resurecting a dead computer I have laying around, to use. Use the powerfull gaming rig for game's and linix for the little other things i do
> 
> @OP great thread! +rep!


Greetz
While it is basically a good idea to have a dedicated box (I have several) the simple truth is that most people are creatures of habit and convenience and will spend little time on the auxillary boxes. It still is a great way to install so you gain some fear-free experience of the basics.

Once you have the basics down you will discover that "no gaming" is not at all accurate. Many games run better in Linux than in Windows, especially OpenGL based games but even some that have to run in Wine. World of Warcraft is one example of a game that must run in Wine for Linux but due to lower latencies and superior TCP/IP stack is smoother on Linux than in Win7. I have yet to get Portal 2 and try it but I have run Half Life 2 and other Steam games. In all honesty HL2 is one that is less smooth in Linux but then my machine is due for upgrades.

I might also point out that it is likely that 95% may be a little high of an estimate for your PC use with Windows since so much time must still be spent on security (fighting off all the malware and handling daily updates) and either earning moneys to pay for apps and games or risk piracy on a less than secure box.

Anyway, I hope you check it out. You may love it.


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zynix;13282814*
> Err...what backup? *I would never expect that such thing would happen to me*. BTW, *Linux (in this case LM10, GNOME, i386) is capable to destroy both of the file systems* simultaneously whilst doing backup or restoring from the aforementioned failure (if I did a backup, which I didn't).
> 
> Now, this is a thing with which I can't live, sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say Windows is perfect, it has it's drawbacks also, *but it's stable, fast and reliable.*
> 
> 'till that issue isn't fixed I will stick with Windoze.


First Bold - Clue - Flash drives fail often and many just die altogether for no apparent reason. It has nothing to do with OpSys on hdd.

Second Bold - While theoretically true, in over 10 years of using Linux on many boxes, all with multiple file systems and OpSyses I have never damaged a Windows partition.
and as an aside, sure backups are a pita and have to be constantly updated to be of any serious use... but then the same could be said about laundry or washing your hands and face.

Third Bold - I disagree since "stable, fast and reliable" are relative terms. Linux runs circles around windows in most areas where speed is an issue.

fast - For example basic hardware latency cannot drop below 10-20 msec in Windows (hard wired into the unalterable kernel) where Linux default kernels achieve 4-8 msec and special low latency kernels such as for DAWs achieve a staggering 1msec! Dont just read past that statistic. That is literally an order of magnitude. Exponential quantum leap.

reliable - In terms of basic structure, code maturity, security, vulnerability to malware, vulnerability to crashes and subsequent software corruption, and far too many others to bother listing, Windows is way behind Linux.

stable - Windows is a "house of cards" totally dependent on a centralized control system located in just a few files like the infamous Registry which is why the simplest of installs or even mere library updates (and nearly everything else) requires rebooting the entire system. While uptime depends on a number of issues and what the box is used for, I have boxes that have run for years with a single unscheduled reboot, and one box that ran for over a year with no reboots and that includes a ridiculous amount of software updates and application installs (I was learning and thought I needed everything







)

So maybe you might try it to see for yourself. Windows is not as fast, stable and reliable as you think... especially once you see how Linux works.


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zynix;13176829*
> Regarding the damage, I totally don't know. Just shut down the PC, booted up and voila! Half of the files on my USB were missing.


Don't blame Linux for the failings of Windows. In this case, FAT32. Windows is equally capable of munching FAT32 and NTFS filesystems; if you pop over to the Windows section and the Hard Drives sections of the forum you'll find two or three such threads posted every week. Some reliability. Neither is a particularly good filesystem to begin with.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *enorbet2;13318514*
> Greetz
> While it is basically a good idea to have a dedicated box (I have several) the simple truth is that most people are creatures of habit and convenience and will spend little time on the auxillary boxes. It still is a great way to install so you gain some fear-free experience of the basics.
> 
> Once you have the basics down you will discover that "no gaming" is not at all accurate. Many games run better in Linux than in Windows, especially OpenGL based games but even some that have to run in Wine. World of Warcraft is one example of a game that must run in Wine for Linux but due to lower latencies and superior TCP/IP stack is smoother on Linux than in Win7. I have yet to get Portal 2 and try it but I have run Half Life 2 and other Steam games. In all honesty HL2 is one that is less smooth in Linux but then my machine is due for upgrades.
> 
> *I might also point out that it is likely that 95% may be a little high of an estimate for your PC use with Windows since so much time must still be spent on security (fighting off all the malware and handling daily updates) and either earning moneys to pay for apps and games or risk piracy on a less than secure box.*
> Anyway, I hope you check it out. You may love it.


You have started me looking into linux gaming I'm open to trying new things in computers

Would be best if you didnt make asumptions(the bit i put in bold).... untell I found this fourm, most all my computer time was spent in a game and what daily updates??


----------



## error10

Quote:



Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*


You have started me looking into linux gaming







I'm open to trying new things in computers









Would be best if you didnt make asumptions(the bit i put in bold).... untell I found this fourm, most all my computer time was spent in a game







and what daily updates??


Daily might be a bit of an exaggeration. Then again if you have Windows automatic updates on, then the thing is probably updating while you're not watching.

The real problem with Microsoft, I think, is that it does NOT have "daily updates." Instead, for the most part, MS batches up all their updates for a monthly "Patch Tuesday" and the updates they'll push outside that cycle are for security problems that got talked about on CNN. By that time it's too late.

If you're using Linux, you're likely to start seeing "daily" updates because they generally get pushed as soon as they're available, instead of once a month.


----------



## Ryanb213

Problem is most people here are gamers, and no matter what you say there is no substitute for windows when it comes to that. If i have to boot into another operating system to do something then that means im going out of my way to do so.

Why would i use another operating system, (not just linux) when my current one does everything i need to do and more? I don't have to worry about compatibility with a stronghold on the marketshare and i don't have to worry about support. Theres just simply no reason.

Linux has its place on servers, windows has its place on home desktops, and mac/os10 has its place as the "wannabe" alternative to windows/mobile computing.

Obviously this is just my opinion and you can take it with a grain of salt, but theres a reason why each operating system has the amount of users it does. But i'll let you decide what that reason is.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
It is certainly possible that I have exaggerated with "daily" for two reasons. One, I am a security fiend and so on my Windows system I have 3rd party 
Malware/Spyware Detection and Removal - 2
Antivirus - 1
Firewall -1

which seem to need at least regular attention and updates. How regular that is I have probably lost sight of because I boot into windows so rarely that I am met by an avalanche of updates that get in the way of what I booted for in the first place.

Additionally, if one doesn't turn off all the little apps background update checkers like java, realplayer, quicktime, printers, etc etc. they will hound you fairly regularly as well. If you do turn the updates off at some point many will stop running and "invite" you to manually download a new version and install it... and of course reboot as a matter of course.

I don't have to waste time with any of that in Linux including rebooting as a matter of course (and fans complain about rebooting when they want occasionally instead of regularly when windows makes you... hmmmm..) so yes, I am biased.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

I need to have a few days to ensure that I can get WKS04 into Linux and ensure it can:
1) Fold - especially with the Chimp Challenge starting in the next few days..every bit helps, and Linux gets better PPD than M$..!








2) Still get my work's Cisco VPN client [app] to work, for when I decide to WFH
3) Actually get it to RDP to other machines, for when I WFH - has to go to a TS in the US office
4) Print to both of my networked printers (piggybacking off of WKS02, running XP Pro x86) from the x64 OS
5) Ensure I can connect to it with something like LogMeIn, so I can work on it from my office, if I want to do something
6) Do my e-banking...which seems to need the use of IE6+, due to an ActiveX plugin
7) I'm sure there's something else...but can't think of it right now.


----------



## zynix

OK, I know I sounded flamey in some of my previous posts, and so I apologize if I did insult someone or something like that. I mentioned those issues in hope of fighting against them, not just to blame Linux for that. And yes, I am met with the fact that flash drives are prone to failures and/or make corruptions on the file system, but the same thing happened on my hard drive, although hard drives are, as far as I know, more fail-proof than flash drives. Well, not really the same, it was an infinite loop of subfolders in a folder, and the file I was downloading was lost in that loop (used JDownloader to download #!).
I hate to sound like a Windows fanboy, but such things never happened while I was using Windows.

PS: Pardon the "stable, fast and reliable" thing, under that I only thought about absence of appropriate drivers for graphic cards for some less supported Linux distros and alpha versions, as well as the pain regarding the compilation process.


----------



## error10

Yep, sounds like file corruption to me, and if you've never had it happen to you while you were using Windows, you're very lucky, or you haven't been using Windows very long. It's a very common occurrence.


----------



## zynix

Quote:



Originally Posted by *error10*


Yep, sounds like file corruption to me, and if you've never had it happen to you while you were using Windows, you're very lucky, or you haven't been using Windows very long. It's a very common occurrence.


I've been using Windows for around 5 years and Linux for a year or such.


----------



## Spooony

If only Amd actually stop talking about Open Gl and actually do something with it gaming on Linux would have a start in the right direction at least


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zynix;13414263*
> I've been using Windows for around 5 years and Linux for a year or such.


Time to buy some lottery tickets.


----------



## Spooony

What really annoys about windows is that MS took away raw sockets. Nmap is full of crap on it


----------



## sparker599

from the OP:
"In fact, I fully reccomend only booting into Winodws if you really cannot achieve a task (playing a game, for example) in Windows."
That last word should be Linux, not Windows, shouldn't it?
BTW, typos: 'recommend' and 'Winodws'


----------



## mushroomboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zynix;13409811*
> PS: Pardon the "stable, fast and reliable" thing, under that I only thought about absence of appropriate drivers for graphic cards for some less supported Linux distros and alpha versions, as well as the pain regarding the compilation process.


The only graphics that have a problem are Radeon, and that's mainly flaky drivers. New Nvidia cards suffer problems too, generally not as much. Everything else as far as drivers comes in the kernel and most distro's get shipped with a recent enough kernel that all hardware should work. 2.6.32 should have just about anything you need, some minor hardware support has been added since and most distro's have at least a 2.6.36 kernel. Even Debian has a 2.6.38 kernel now and it works very well.


----------



## Simple_echo

Well, I've been trying to enjoy Linux since April. Using it as much as possible for every day tasks. Even went as far as getting Photoshop running on wine so I would have one less reason to boot into Windows (I hate Gimp, please don't tell me to just use it instead). Tried plenty of distros, and the popular GUIs. Found out I really like Mint with whatever version of Gnome that comes standard on it, and I dislike just about every other GUI, including the newer Gnome version that was on the Fedora 15 distro. LXDE was one of the better ones, but it just wasn't' the same for me. KDE, well I just loathe KDE, it was definitely not my cup of tea.

My main problem I keep coming across is dual monitor support, it simply sucks. Until I get a Nvidia card, or ATI drivers magically stop screwing everything up, I think I'm done with Linux for now. Especially if the only GUI I enjoy is going to be obsolete in the not too distant future with how fast Linux moves. Now before I install ATI drivers dual monitor support is fine, it's actually better than Windows in some cases.

This image is how my desktop currently looks, and I'm tired of random things like this happening when I restart my computer. It's almost guaranteed for something to be screwed up just by restarting my system once the ATI drivers are installed. Even if I somehow fix the problem, something else happens on the next reboot. Before this reboot there was only one task bar (or whatever it's called in this OS), and AWN on my desktop. Now there are three broken task bars that wont do anything I tell them to, and AWN wont even show up.










The image looks like a poor Photoshop job because I did a half ass job in Gimp. When I did a screen shot it would only capture one monitor at a time, so I had to paste the images together. The screenshot feature is another thing I liked in Linux when it was working. It's better than Windows by far, but not quiet as good as OS X. Although I'm sure there is a package of sorts that would make it even better.

Linux did have one ultimate saving grace though, and I will be keeping a partition of it on my hard drive just for this. PostgreSQL is so much easier to install on Linux than it is on OS X. OS X I spent a good amount of time after class with other OS X users trying to get the thing working. In Linux on the other hand I just typed in a couple sudo commands and it worked.

So to sum things up, I like Linux, but I hate trying to use it with an ATI card and dual monitors. I might try using it as my main OS when I get a new video card, but for now I give up.


----------



## error10

NVIDIA. The way it's meant to be played.


----------



## twich12

tried and love it, running fedora on my old laptop, learning on the laptop before i make the big leap to my desktops


----------



## steevieweevie

I tried Ubuntu. Ran a dual boot with Win 7. It was ok. I liked some of the freeware programs it offered but I got sick of not being able to use my computer for entertainment. Put in a DVD? Can't play it. play a song? nope. Play a Windows game? Nada. Then I look for drivers to play all of the above and get taken to these sites where everyone discusses source code and speaks a dialect of computerese that I'm not familiar with. MS is a large corporation with a fiduciary duty to it's shareholders - they need to make profit... from you. I get that and their market protectionism is sometimes a pain in the azz. However, they understand that the average user isn't computer savvy. Linux is like the electric company that needs you to understand how electricity is made in order to flip a light switch. I'm not the programmer or engineer - just the end user...


----------



## Simple_echo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *error10;13685876*
> NVIDIA. The way it's meant to be played.


More like "Nvidia, the only way it can be played".


----------



## error10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *steevieweevie;13686089*
> I tried Ubuntu. Ran a dual boot with Win 7. It was ok. I liked some of the freeware programs it offered but I got sick of not being able to use my computer for entertainment. Put in a DVD? Can't play it. play a song? nope. Play a Windows game? Nada. Then I look for drivers to play all of the above and get taken to these sites where everyone discusses source code and speaks a dialect of computerese that I'm not familiar with. MS is a large corporation with a fiduciary duty to it's shareholders - they need to make profit... from you. I get that and their market protectionism is sometimes a pain in the azz. However, they understand that the average user isn't computer savvy. Linux is like the electric company that needs you to understand how electricity is made in order to flip a light switch. I'm not the programmer or engineer - just the end user...


Sounds like you had a really bad day.

Though I must say you probably wouldn't have had any of those problems, if you had read my Linux Software Guide (below).


----------



## Am*

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *steevieweevie;13686089*
> I tried Ubuntu. Ran a dual boot with Win 7. It was ok. I liked some of the freeware programs it offered but I got sick of not being able to use my computer for entertainment. Put in a DVD? Can't play it. play a song? nope. Play a Windows game? Nada. Then I look for drivers to play all of the above and get taken to these sites where everyone discusses source code and speaks a dialect of computerese that I'm not familiar with. MS is a large corporation with a fiduciary duty to it's shareholders - they need to make profit... from you. I get that and their market protectionism is sometimes a pain in the azz. However, they understand that the average user isn't computer savvy. Linux is like the electric company that needs you to understand how electricity is made in order to flip a light switch. I'm not the programmer or engineer - just the end user...


Amen to this.

I suggest you try a different Linux OS though, Ubuntu is crap (even more so by default). I personally use PuppyLinux for everyday use, it comes with a Flash-enabled browser (which is quite buggy, though still better than nUbuntu's), mp3 and a basic working movie player by default at least.


----------



## jsc1973

I have been playing around with various Linux distros for about 10 years now. Until a few years ago, I never found one that was worth the trouble it gave me, and would hit the roof at people who went around pushing Linux on people.

Around 2008, the worm finally turned, and IMO, Linux finally became a viable option for an ordinary computer user, or someone like me who could figure it out, but didn't have the time or inclination to do so.

The first time it actually "worked" for me was when I was looking for something that would run on a Compaq laptop from 1999, that had a K6-2 processor. I replaced that with a mobile K6-2+ I had for a big performance boost, but it still wouldn't run anything better than Windows 2000. I tried Puppy Linux instead, and was stunned when it not only worked, but booted into a stable, fully functional system. I booted it from the LiveCD onto my desktop, again with success and functionality.

It had been a year or two since I'd messed with any Linux, but there was a big difference. The headaches with hardware detection in Linux--I can tell horror stories about this--were a thing of the past. I tried several distros and eventually settled on Puppy for older machines and PCLinuxOS Zen Mini for the desktop, and use them frequently. I still spend most of my time in Windows, due to needing Windows software in my work, but it's not unusual for me to boot PCLOS on my desktop and stay in it for days until I need Windows. (I'm not a gamer, so I have no need for Windows otherwise.) If I ever change jobs, I might boot into Linux by preference, as it does have some advantages.


----------



## Spooony

Backtrack Linux loooooooooove it


----------



## ()ut[@st

I don't use my Windows partition for anything except maybe playing the odd game (which I could probably configure under wine if I were bothered) otherwise I'm a 100% Linux user, and have been since 2007, why endure the limitations of either when you can have the best of both worlds?


----------



## 88Nitro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *()ut[@st;13782424*
> I don't use my Windows partition for anything except maybe playing the odd game (which I could probably configure under wine if I were bothered) otherwise I'm a 100% Linux user, and have been since 2007, why endure the limitations of either when you can have the best of both worlds?


Amen......... used to use windows all the time, tried linux a while back and never switched back to 100% windows.. in fact, I'm more 75% Linux and 25% windows nowadays









Puppylinux, Ubuntu, or Linux mint+flashaid (firefox addon) in my opinion, is the best choice for any beginner.


----------



## Mr.N00bLaR

I have been using Ubuntu on/off since 5.04 I think. I switched to 100% for a year a while ago (before W7 came out). I like W7 but switched back 100% and have been on Ubuntu for 4 or 5 months now.


----------



## evermooingcow

I achieved 100% Linux at home recently. Finally took some time to tame an old printer/scanner device I have and got it running perfectly on Linux eliminating the one Windows dependence I had. it turns out the machine got a virus even though I hardly ever turn it on and that motivated me to take the few hours to get it working in Linux. I'm so happy I did though.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
This is something of repetition but because it needs to be. The greatest single issue thwarting those new to Linux is probably wifi and that's mainly because it is such a lucrative but competitive market that manufacturers change chips like we change socks (the kind on our feet







)

In windows, since no manufacturer wants to be left out, they just issue a new driver. This works pretty well if you buy new and get the CD but if you don't get the driver with it, no matter what system you're on, it's very tedious. At the driver download page you will commonly see a huge list of so-called revision number models of the very same name card, often with pictures because it can be so confusing.... and that's just for windows. They often not only don't write Linux driver modules but don't release the data that makes it possible for the Linux community to easily support all revisions of all models of all manufacturers, and there are many.

*EASIEST SOLUTION* -

Ethernet ports or NICs are much more simple and extremely well supported in Linux. So it can be not only made very easy to overcome the wifi hassle,but get added security and function as frosting on the cake. Here's how:

There are devices made but for some reason lesser known, commonly referred to as "pocket router" or Access Points and many other names because they can do so many things. The important factor for Linux people trying to get decent wifi support is that they connect via normal Cat5 or better ethernet cable and therefore *require no additional driver modules !*

They behave much like a router in that they are simply accessed and configured via a browser based wizard/ config suite. You just type in "192.168.0.1" (some are 192.168.1.0) in the address bar and Bam! > GUI wizard!
These things have great application in business, lan parties, home theater, home media streaming and much more. Here is an example I have been using for years. It costs roughly $35 US but there are many more with lots more features available. This is just to get you started.










Data Here

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=346

Hope this helps. It is so easy it should


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *enorbet2;13966169*
> Greetz
> This is something of repetition but because it needs to be. The greatest single issue thwarting those new to Linux is probably wifi and that's mainly because it is such a lucrative but competitive market that manufacturers change chips like we change socks (the kind on our feet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> In windows, since no manufacturer wants to be left out, they just issue a new driver. This works pretty well if you buy new and get the CD but if you don't get the driver with it, no matter what system you're on, it's very tedious. At the driver download page you will commonly see a huge list of so-called revision number models of the very same name card, often with pictures because it can be so confusing.... and that's just for windows. They often not only don't write Linux driver modules but don't release the data that makes it possible for the Linux community to easily support all revisions of all models of all manufacturers, and there are many.
> 
> *EASIEST SOLUTION* -
> 
> Ethernet ports or NICs are much more simple and extremely well supported in Linux. So it can be not only made very easy to overcome the wifi hassle,but get added security and function as frosting on the cake. Here's how:
> 
> There are devices made but for some reason lesser known, commonly referred to as "pocket router" or Access Points and many other names because they can do so many things. The important factor for Linux people trying to get decent wifi support is that they connect via normal Cat5 or better ethernet cable and therefore *require no additional driver modules !*
> 
> They behave much like a router in that they are simply accessed and configured via a browser based wizard/ config suite. You just type in "192.168.0.1" (some are 192.168.1.0) in the address bar and Bam! > GUI wizard!
> These things have great application in business, lan parties, home theater, home media streaming and much more. Here is an example I have been using for years. It costs roughly $35 US but there are many more with lots more features available. This is just to get you started.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data Here
> 
> http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=346
> 
> Hope this helps. It is so easy it should


I've been telling people this myself. (See the link in my sig on WAPs). That said, wireless cards are getting better under Linux, and it's easier now to research and find out what cards have support.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

I'm gonna be switching WKS04 over to Natty once my bigadv WU is finished being Folded.....which will be about Monday afternoon....


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
After WiFi and a few obscure printers (especially all-in-ones) possibly the second most bothersome obstacle to those desiring an escape from the costs of Windows (and not just as in money) is partitioning, I think. It seems trivial to me since I have done it for so long and so many times but I have to recognize that it is possible if one is not paying attention to wipe out what data you have, so it can seem daunting until you read a little and then do it.









Because it does seem daunting it is common that those new to deep level work resort to some sort of VM ar (the horror!) WUBI. IMHO nobody trying Linux for the first time should ever use either one of these. It's not just that one is basically running two systems, one on top of the other, wasting resources badly and crippling both, but neither has decent accelerated video support.







Rather than go into details as to how and why these two are a bad choice for first timers, let me introduce you to the easiest and best solution. Many here already know something about them, but again, it bears repetition and even old-timers may discover something new and exciting.









If you're a Windows user and you've ever tried BartPE or Hirens bootable CD (and if you haven't, you should) you have at least a clue as to what is possible from a portable, bootable CD or USB stick. This is a pale shadow of what Linux can do on portable media by virtue of not being proprietary so that it can be user configured to do a great job as a fully qualified OpSys instead of a badly limited Pre-install Environment, as in Windows derivatives.

Linux Live CDs are downloadable as an iso and ideally should be checked for md5sum to insure absolutely no corruption in the download. This may be unnecessary in some video since corruption may only be a few weird pixels or a skip or seven but in an operating system you really don't want anything amiss...and it's easy and fast and worth the effort. You may also want to select "verify" when you burn the media but this is less of an issue than checksum. The checksum issue grows with iso size so one workaround is to try a very light system with a small iso for starters.

There are numerous live cd systems out there and you can see a nice list here http://www.livecdlist.com/. I have over 60 Live CDs including versions and my all-time all-around favorite was Slax-Remix and I was worried and upset when Slax applied pressure to the developer to stop using the name. That worry is over and the pressure only made it better as Remix has been reborn as Porteus and it R0X! especially for those new to Linux.

It is under 300MB download and comes as either 32bit or 64bit (first timers should do 32bit imho to avoid compatibility option obstacles) has excellent support for BOTH nVidia and ATi







and can boot in 15 seconds!! It comes with Firefox and Flash pre-installed and has modular addons for ease of growth.

A major advantage is that most Live systems do not allow for easy hard drive install or, as in the case of the *Buntus, are a limited system designed merely as a precurser to installation. Porteus is not limited in any way as a Live system and has easy USB and hard drive install options so it solves both issues simply, making it easy and solid.

Just to whet your appetite and show how epic it has been for how long (and also because I don't have a screenie of Porteus on OCN yet, lol) here are samples of Slax-Remix desktop and boot menu screen from 2 and 3 years ago, respectively!



















Bottom Line - Live CDs are a superb introduction to Linux and extremely useful to Power Users as well and Porteus is one of the best. Please, do try it. It is almost a sureshot that you will love it and find many uses, not the least of which is enjoying Latty's Challenge with zero risk.

It is HERE https://porteus.org/


----------



## Kieran

I use jolicloud on my netbook which i have heard is based on ubuntu. It's much faster than windows 7 starter which was preloaded onto my machine and much more customisable. In the future i might consider switching to ubuntu.

The only thing stopping me from using linux on my main machine (see my sig) is compatitblity with games. I mostly use steam but i also have games that don't and as linux dosen't have direct x they wouldn't work.


----------



## mushroomboy

They do work in Wine, DX9 works extremely well (when the game works but that is another story).


----------



## Turbobutts

No games, no deal. Easy as that.


----------



## mushroomboy

Dude search for MY Crysis post, I got it to run in Wine and I tell you the exact patch you need! I can get some really great games to run in Linux.


----------



## enorbet2

Greetz
I have posted about this ad nauseam so Ima keep this real short and simple. If it involves TCP/IP or UDP, like online games all do, it will likely run better in Linux EVEN under Wine.

Example - I have the exact same World of Warcraft WOTLK install accessible from either Linux (usually 32 bit) or Win 7 Ult. 64 and besides other advantages my latency on Win 7 averages around 106 msec. In Linux it is around 54 msec. You can FEEL that.


----------



## biltong

I've been using windows since I was a kid purely for gaming and last week I put Ubuntu on my rig, and I'm loving every second. Game support is getting there, so far I haven't found a game that WON'T run, performance is just worse than in windows, which is to be expected.

I'd say give it a try with games in wine


----------



## Transhour

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *enorbet2;14087206*
> Greetz
> I have posted about this ad nauseam so Ima keep this real short and simple. If it involves TCP/IP or UDP, like online games all do, it will likely run better in Linux EVEN under Wine.
> 
> Example - I have the exact same World of Warcraft WOTLK install accessible from either Linux (usually 32 bit) or Win 7 Ult. 64 and besides other advantages my latency on Win 7 averages around 106 msec. In Linux it is around 54 msec. You can FEEL that.


thats the network stack







my download speeds are about 30% faster in ubuntu than it is in windows.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *biltong;14402070*
> I've been using windows since I was a kid purely for gaming and last week I put Ubuntu on my rig, and I'm loving every second. Game support is getting there, so far I haven't found a game that WON'T run, performance is just worse than in windows, which is to be expected.
> 
> I'd say give it a try with games in wine


wait till you use mono to run a .net app, then you will know the evils that is wine and mono


----------



## MystKid

i have been using linux for about two years and a half now. i switched from opensuse to archlinux and now i am stuck with gentoo from a year and i love it. i love how every part of the OS can be customized.i have tryed playing games under wine but it doesnt feel as smooth as it does on winblows so i jsut dualboot. i got my windows install on my 60GB SSD and gentoo on my velociraptor.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

I've gone over to Lucid on WKS04 (haven't updated my sig just yet though) and the main issues I have are purely regarding printing..

I've got two printers, one is an MFP/AIO printer, and I can print to it within Linux - though I can't tell whether it is possible to print from other Linux machines, as I don't have any others currently...but it can't be seen by M$ machines - and a Canon LBP3100 (laser) printer that just refuses to work at all. The OS can see the printer, and thinks it can print to it, but there's no movement at the printing device....no noise, no paper being moved, nada...









I even had *LutZ* connect up and spend ages fighting with it, but to no avail...


----------



## P.Johnston

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nude_Lewd_Man;14434728*
> I've gone over to Lucid on WKS04 (haven't updated my sig just yet though) and the main issues I have are purely regarding printing..
> 
> I've got two printers, one is an MFP/AIO printer, and I can print to it within Linux - though I can't tell whether it is possible to print from other Linux machines, as I don't have any others currently...but it can't be seen by M$ machines - and a Canon LBP3100 (laser) printer that just refuses to work at all. The OS can see the printer, and thinks it can print to it, but there's no movement at the printing device....no noise, no paper being moved, nada...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I even had *LutZ* connect up and spend ages fighting with it, but to no avail...


Ding. One Epson inkjet connected via USB and an old HP 6L (ironclad workhorse) hooked up to a winxp machine from which I connect wirelessly through my network. Works flawlessly in Windows (can print to that printer from any machine in the house); in Ubuntu 10, I experience the same thing as you--while I can see and get to the host, printing to that printer appears beyond my technical experience (AIX / UNIX system admin, Windows admin, Network admin with nearly 20 years experience).

Everything else works great, though!


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Both of those printers used to be connected to WKS02, but then that started playing silly bugge things hanging before the BIOS prompt, so I moved it over to WKS04 when it was running W7 x64 and that was working fine.....change WKS04 over to have a primary boot of Lucid and it just fails...

To be honest, this is two separate issues: one is the part relating directly towards the Canon laser printer and getting that to work; the other is getting CUPS sorted for the M$ machines to see and print to...


----------



## PhRe4k

I am seriously considering retrying the challenge after screwing up an ubuntu 10.10 install a while back.. fortunately I was able to recover my data, but I had to reinstall Windows









I'm using Ubuntu 11.04 and Fedora 15 in virtual box right now, and so far I am liking ubuntu more. Maybe enough to dual boot again


----------



## enorbet2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *transhour;14402156*
> thats the network stack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my download speeds are about 30% faster in ubuntu than it is in windows.


EXACTLY!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *transhour;14402156*
> wait till you use mono to run a .net app, then you will know the evils that is wine and mono


Salvation (of a kind) is on the way. Apparently .net will begin phasing out with Windows 8 which is putting it's considerable power behind HTML 5. Hopefully they don't try to spin it into MS ownership like they tried with Java, but maybe they learned a lesson with that in cost/benefit.


----------



## PhRe4k

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhRe4k;14787437*
> I am seriously considering retrying the challenge after screwing up an ubuntu 10.10 install a while back.. fortunately I was able to recover my data, but I had to reinstall Windows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm using Ubuntu 11.04 and Fedora 15 in virtual box right now, and so far I am liking ubuntu more. Maybe enough to dual boot again


Well right after I made this comment I went ahead an installed Fedora 15







Not dual boot, but full install. I know it's early, but I don't see myself installing Windows on my main rig, at least not any time soon.. if I need to use Windows I always have my laptop







Time will tell but so far I am loving Fedora


----------



## Jim888

HELP! Trying to take this challenge, Messed around with ubuntu (I think it was 7) and have decided to try it again

installed 11.04 and I get the boot sequence and it hangs on "checking battery state"...."ok"

and just sits there been sitting for over 30 min

I've tried all kinds of helps I found by googling but nothing has worked, any Ideas?


----------



## Rocket Lawnchair

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jim888;15040828*
> HELP! Trying to take this challenge, Messed around with ubuntu (I think it was 7) and have decided to try it again
> 
> installed 11.04 and I get the boot sequence and it hangs on "checking battery state"...."ok"
> 
> and just sits there been sitting for over 30 min
> 
> I've tried all kinds of helps I found by googling but nothing has worked, any Ideas?


I remember that being an issue with GDM, the login manager that comes with the default version of Ubuntu (GNOME). Try the KDE version, Kubuntu, and see if that works for you.


----------



## 1.21Jigawatts

Jesus H Christ! This is why I don't like linux people. Do you really expect me to read this novel that preaches the glory that is linux. Good grief.

The truth is its just easier to continue using pirated windows. Just like its easier to not read your entire original post. I'm not going out of my way to learn a new OS. Especially when every little thing you want and need a computer for requires some kind of work around because no one supports you open source OS.

Case in point
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lattyware;3141898*
> "If you want to install software under linux, don't go to the site of the software you want to install and download it"


Why would I download an easily installed executable file from the source. That's just stupid.

And the OP addmints you'll still need windows or lord forbid mac os anyway.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lattyware;3141898*
> " Don't expect to run the exact same software... If you want to game, you can boot back and play, then boot into Linux ... It's not a big deal."


No just a whole extra OS just to game or use software you may already have. Hell whats an extra 5-30gigs of OS when linux is so tiny.

Yeah, I'm still not convinced bro. Sorry.


----------



## Schmuckley

i'd like to run linux,too bad you can't use basic,dos,or c++ on it


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Schmuckley;15044916*
> i'd like to run linux,too bad you can't use basic,dos,or c++ on it


Gambas, Freebasic, Blitz Basic - there are plenty of BASIC languages for Linux.

Dosbox for DOS.

The GCC for C++.

Not only are all the things you've said possible, C++ is pretty much the mainstay language, I'd imagine half of all linux code is in C++.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1.21Jigawatts;15044821*
> Jesus H Christ! This is why I don't like linux people. Do you really expect me to read this novel that preaches the glory that is linux. Good grief.
> 
> The truth is its just easier to continue using pirated windows. Just like its easier to not read your entire original post. I'm not going out of my way to learn a new OS. Especially when every little thing you want and need a computer for requires some kind of work around because no one supports you open source OS.
> 
> Case in point
> 
> Why would I download an easily installed executable file from the source. That's just stupid.
> 
> And the OP addmints you'll still need windows or lord forbid mac os anyway.
> No just a whole extra OS just to game or use software you may already have. Hell whats an extra 5-30gigs of OS when linux is so tiny.
> 
> Yeah, I'm still not convinced bro. Sorry.


Your point is true, it's easier to just continue to use windows - and if you don't have enough interest to try something new that is potentially better, then you are not the target audience. Yes, I wrote a lot about it, because it's useful information for some people. I'm not preaching - I'm informing. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, Linux is the best choice for everyone.

Plenty of people download source packages not knowing what they are doing. It's a common issue and causes lots of people to think linux is hard to use, which is why I addressed it.

And yeah, if you want to game on your main machine, Linux probably isn't for you. I run a separate gaming PC, lots of people dual boot. If you never try Linux, then you won't ever get why people do that. Linux is a great OS and if you like it, it's worth that effort as Windows makes doing everyday tasks a real pain.

If you are not convinced, fair enough - but like I said in the OP - this thread is for people who are interested enough to give Linux a shot and see how they actually feel about it. You have said yourself, you are not one of those people.


----------



## Shovah

Most of my computer uses is generally gaming and video design and editing.

Now I am unsure as to the support and compatability of programs such as Sony Vegas and Adobe After Affects on Linux. I do know that a lot of games are not supported on a Linux based system.

If I were a business user and using nothing but word or excel (or linux equivalent) then I forsure would be willing to use Linux, but alas I am not thus it's wouldn't be particularly the greatest OS to suit my needs.

If I did try Linux though I would say I would have to try it for a month. Not a week, personally I want to take a good solid month using the OS before making a decision. A week is too short of a time frame to really test and understand the OS as a whole.


----------



## aweir

I'm up for the challenge....again.

I just need the following hardware to work in Linux before I can call it a replacement to Windows without sounding pretentious.

Canon multifunction Printer
Iogear bluetooth USB adapter
Dynex wireless USB adapter
Rocketfish 5.1 soundcard (with full 5.1 support)
Firewire miniDV videocamera

Which I do not see happening anytime soon. :/ I'm in a love-hate relationship with Linux right now and so I wish to just use it in a VM, under Vmware.

The printer is considered a complete paperweight so I am looking to replace it with an HP multifunction printer.
The soundcard makes a screeching distortion sound the last time I tried Linux natively. Not sure if this has been fixed or not. I am looking to replace it with a Dolby Digital Live soundcard soon. Probably a Diamond XtremeSound 7.1
I need to be able to transfer my photos from my camera to my PC using a Bluetooth adapter.
I can't figure out why there is no support for USB wireless adapters. What a shame to have to use a PCI based card.
I have a camcorder that utilizes the firewire interface and would like to be able to use it.


----------



## jwalker150

I have done Redhat, SUSE and Freebsd. In the Unix side HP-UX and Tru64. Let me not forget Solaris as well








In a previous position I was hired as a Novell person and my first project was a Linux one and I had to teach myself Perl so I could do a database conversion in to mysql.

It is a fine operating system. Does what you ask.
It has fine GUI interface. All fine and good. Fast as all and can compete as an operating system with anything out there.

The problem: It's not Windows. It can't run Windows apps 100% with out some serious tweeking and some it can't ever run. I can find more compatible applications going to Mac then to Linux.

If, on the job as a systems admin, It Manager, project manager etc... and I see Linux is the key to the solution find and dandy I will use it no qualms at all.

At home, forget it. Until it can be flawless in meeting the compatibility living and working and playing in a Windows world, and we are in a Windows world no matter what statistics you want to throw at it, I will stick to Windows as my primary system. Now if I set up a test system or something well that's a different story.

That's the thing, many of us here with out overclocking, pushing limits etc... we are not the norm of the average home computer user. We can get together with each other and talk this whole subject, any subject to the tiniest microbe of complexity. The average home user though just looks at us and says "Huh?" yes they do look at what we can do in wonder and awe. Then they just go back to there Windows computer, bring up solitary, email, netflix, youtube or that game they bought from gamestop and go with there lives.

I have to deal and work with in that world. Linux does not help me one bit when I walk across the street because my neighbor deleted a file he should not have and asked me to come help fix it.

Don't get me wrong as I said, Linux is great. It just doesn't work for the 99% of the home user Windows run world.

Yes, we need Linux. At the same time Linux is going to have to become even more adaptive and user friendly if it ever wants to become a true home user choice. It has to learn how to run Windows applications straight from the box. The home user doesn't care anything about that. They want to load it and it works. That's it. I know, you can say it's not Windows, it's Linux. That's my point.


----------



## evermooingcow

From my understanding the point of this thread isn't to try to convince the reader that the entire desktop world should convert to Linux. Its purpose is to get that particular reader (who supposedly was motivated enough to start reading in the first place) to try Linux for a while to see if it will work out for his or her own desktop (and to some extent life style).

I don't really get why it should matter discussing whether some random Joe could easily pick up Linux. Isn't this about whether it will work for *you*?

Also along the same line just because the desktop world is Windows-centric it doesn't mean every user is into everything that is popular. There are users that don't need a PC to interface with portable devices, users that don't play games, and users that don't have Netflix.


----------



## aweir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *evermooingcow;15057024*
> There are users that don't need a PC to interface with portable devices, users that don't play games, and users that don't have Netflix.


This is 2011, not 1995.

Anyway, for me the only real advantage of Linux is the security it offers when running it inside a virtual machine on top of Windows, to browse the internet, protecting the host from viruses and malware. And to use as many Windows- alternative apps as possible, reducing the need to install countless applications on the Windows host and bloating down the registry.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aweir;15057342*
> This is 2011, not 1995.


Hey...!







That sounds like me...!!

I don't need a PC to interface with portable devices (other than my camera, but I can plug that into my printer if needs be - or [IIRC]via the USB cable), I don't game (other than Solitaire/Mines or on my phone) and I don't have Netflix (not entirely sure it is available here anyway) but I'm running Linux...


----------



## NateN34

Been there, done that. I tried this on my old laptop for about 1 week and had everything customized, but left it all because of Windows games and programs I need to run. Sure there was Wine, but it is VERY messy and does not perform near the same as running it straight off Windows.

I will just stick to using Linux on servers, which it is best at.


----------



## PathOfTheRighteousMan

I use Fedora 15 on my netbook, but that's about it. I have a ExpressGate on this PC, but I've used it just once or twice to see what it's like.

Eh.


----------



## Ryleh

I didn't do Latty's Linux Challenge because I already *run Linux*!









Am I doing it right?


----------



## Dorkseid

We have a Linux system sitting in the corner in our house, collecting dust...it's kind of like the neglected middle child of the family, until one of the others goes down and we need a web/e-mail machine...then it's our savior.


----------



## Nude_Lewd_Man

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dorkseid;15131476*
> We have a Linux system sitting in the corner in our house, collecting dust...it's kind of like the neglected middle child of the family, until one of the others goes down and we need a web/e-mail machine...then it's our savior.


Kinda similar to here...haven't used it in so long I've forgotten what I called it (either UNIX1 or UNIX2) and it is only connected to the KVM anyway..

I've also got WKS04 going, which is my main rig.......


----------



## evermooingcow

I have a few neglected Linux boxes collecting dust. They are still running and doing their job though. They just don't require any maintenance


----------



## Rocket Lawnchair

You guys need to realize that Linux isn't Windows. Windows apps are not designed to run on Linux, and if you expect everything to run perfectly with Wine, you'll be very disappointed. Dual-boot Windows for the apps you can't live without, don't try to run them under Linux.


----------



## mickeyfuqinp

Gaming is the ONLY thing holding me back from going full fledged linux user








i really want to get away from windows (mostly just microsoft)
always been a huge fan of open source and the community it brings.

im trying ubuntu 11.4 now, seeing what i can get to run in wine (ive herd its advanced ALOT)
played with the new ubuntu 11.10 beta2, but it was super buggy, couldn't even get unity to properly open up









ive been using fedora for years now (usualy on the various netbooks/laptops i get







)
this is my first run in with ubuntu in a while, and id say it has changed alot..

i LOVE that it asks to install proprietary drivers now, instead of treating them like a disease.


----------



## Rocket Lawnchair

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mickeyfuqinp*


Gaming is the ONLY thing holding me back from going full fledged linux user








i really want to get away from windows (mostly just microsoft) 
always been a huge fan of open source and the community it brings.

im trying ubuntu 11.4 now, seeing what i can get to run in wine (ive herd its advanced ALOT) 
played with the new ubuntu 11.10 beta2, but it was super buggy, couldn't even get unity to properly open up









ive been using fedora for years now (usualy on the various netbooks/laptops i get







) 
this is my first run in with ubuntu in a while, and id say it has changed alot..

i LOVE that it asks to install proprietary drivers now, instead of treating them like a disease.


Wait till the Ubuntu 11.10 release when it hits stable, I guarantee you won't be dissapointed.


----------



## .Andres

Are there any good alternatives for music producers using Logic, Pro Tools, Reaper, ect?


----------



## Atlantida

I would love to see a pro-audio distro of linux. All U'd need is the drivers for pro-tools hardware, and a linux ported install of pro-tools. I sure make it sound easy to do!


----------



## Benz

I was running 6 Counter-Strike 1.6 servers on a Linux machine for 8 years. They never crashed, never stalled, never lagged. I was running Debian so I know for some time now that Linux is faster and definitely more reliable than Windows. I don't need any convincing.


----------



## Uncle Dolans

What Linux distro has windows that 'flop' when you drag them? I was using it on a computer at some Uni and after about 5-minutes of wobbling windows across the desktop, I came to the conclusion "I *MUST* have this!".


----------



## TheGamefreak

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Uncle Dolans*


What Linux distro has windows that 'flop' when you drag them? I was using it on a computer at some Uni and after about 5-minutes of wobbling windows across the desktop, I came to the conclusion "I *MUST* have this!".











pretty sure that's Ubuntu,

and on a side note Ive tried Ubuntu 10.10 and 11.04 i have to say i liked Ubuntu 10.10 overall but i came back to windows for gaming =/ not to mention 
the zipping system for Linux








as for 11.04 i HATEEDDDDDD the GUI on it and it didn't like my dual monitor setup, but... i might give 11.10 a try when it comes out cause overall i do love linux


----------



## crust_cheese

The lack of Arch Linux in this thread is disturbing.
I would recommend it to anyone who had fun with Ubuntu but would like to move on to something more mature and customizable! Got a neat Arch Linux setup running on a Toshiba PortegÃ© laptop... 600 MHz Pentium III. Really breathes life into these old machnes.


----------



## Uncle Dolans

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGamefreak;15252213*
> pretty sure that's Ubuntu,
> 
> and on a side note Ive tried Ubuntu 10.10 and 11.04 i have to say i liked Ubuntu 10.10 overall but i came back to windows for gaming =/ not to mention
> the zipping system for Linux
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as for 11.04 i HATEEDDDDDD the GUI on it and it didn't like my dual monitor setup, but... i might give 11.10 a try when it comes out cause overall i do love linux


I have a dual monitor setup









Does linux feature any dual monitor managing programs, such as my current one, UltraMon. You know, like extending task bars and all that jazz?

Also i have tried Ubuntu before and it didn't have the 'wobbly' windows that i am describing (Maybe it is an option i didn't switch on) and it didn't like my 560Ti which caused some problems with installation. I then had trouble connecting to my router with my wireless adapter, and for some reason the task bar got stuck in the middle of the desktop, which was quite annoying. Am going to give it an install when i get my new HDDs.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Uncle Dolans;15256930*
> I have a dual monitor setup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does linux feature any dual monitor managing programs, such as my current one, UltraMon. You know, like extending task bars and all that jazz?
> 
> Also i have tried Ubuntu before and it didn't have the 'wobbly' windows that i am describing (Maybe it is an option i didn't switch on) and it didn't like my 560Ti which caused some problems with installation. I then had trouble connecting to my router with my wireless adapter, and for some reason the task bar got stuck in the middle of the desktop, which was quite annoying. Am going to give it an install when i get my new HDDs.


You don't need extra programs to deal with multiple monitors, the desktop environments all have built-in support for it.


----------



## Malcolm

I thought I'd give Arch a try (planning on installing on this old P4 Dell I have) so I'm installing it in VMWare first to see what I think. But! One problem (see attachment.)


----------



## Uncle Dolans

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lattyware;15257698*
> You don't need extra programs to deal with multiple monitors, the desktop environments all have built-in support for it.


Sounds convenient.


----------



## Inverse

I alt tab from my game to my browser or IM far too much to see Linux as viable for the gamer. Until they can have proper support or emulation of DirectX to run Windows titles, I'll most likely never use Linux OSes from my home system. Maybe on a netbook or something.


----------



## Xaero252

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Inverse;15257962*
> I alt tab from my game to my browser or IM far too much to see Linux as viable for the gamer. Until they can have proper support or emulation of DirectX to run Windows titles, I'll most likely never use Linux OSes from my home system. Maybe on a netbook or something.


Its funny you put it that way, I multitask a lot more than you while gaming, and I ran linux exclusively (even with new titles) for almost 3 years straight, until job requirements made me switch back to windows.
I actually have an entire desktop (well, its a side of my compiz prism) dedicated to messaging/voice applications, one dedicated to my music player (usually opposite my game), one for browsing, and one monitoring my server and my folding progress/status.

Then again, linux "can't game," right? I hate this argument more than anything because its so naieve - of course Linux can game - you just have to learn it first to make it work for you, its not like windows where it works the way Microsoft makes it (or makes it not), it works the way YOU make it (or make it not).

I will say in your defense however, Linux isn't for everyone, and the learning curve is steep. It takes patience and a lot of free time at first, and I understand that not everyone has the free time to be messing around with learning a new operating system, especially one as intricate and delicate as Linux. That said, please - don't over exaggerate linux's "inability" to game; I had every game prior to the release of Deus Ex:HR that I tried working (because I had to switch to windows due to work related reasons, which I hate - running in a VM was not authorized because it would put me behind somewhat of a linux 'proxy' and the IT guys pretty much flipped their lid like I was some huge rebel on their network.)


----------



## evermooingcow

Gaming in a Windows VM isn't unrealistic anymore either with Xen VGA passthrough improving every release. I got it working with no custom patches or tweaks on the 4.1.1 release. If I pick up gaming one day I may go with a VM setup.


----------



## Transhour

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Malcolm*


I thought I'd give Arch a try (planning on installing on this old P4 Dell I have) so I'm installing it in VMWare first to see what I think. But! One problem (see attachment.)


happens a lot with arch, mirrors burning out like that or not having a complete archives like they should. try another mirror.


----------



## Hatakescreams

Haha i know this thread is real old but i am gonna give the linux challenge a try when i get home, also i would like to know why linx is always used by programmers other then the fact its open souce, as i am teaching myself java atm.


----------



## Uncle Dolans

I finally got around to trying Ubuntu again. I went for the latest (11.10). I am booting off a USB and it appears that after the loading/splash screen, it changes to a blank black screen and doesn't do anything. To make sure there were no issues to do with my copy, i tried it on a different machine and it worked fine, so my assumption is it's a hardware incompatability. Anything i can do?

EDIT: It seems to have worked when I unplugged my second screen.


----------



## jlells01

New signature below...


----------



## hajile

bump


----------



## exhaile

I like what you're trying to do latty +rep









Edit: can't rep for some reason :/


----------



## nvidiaftw12

Alright guys I have a little problem with linux. It seems to be with every distro, 64 and 32 bit. The problem is it's really sluggish and dosen't want to accept my clicks. It often freezes and I have to alt backspace. It's is so bad currently I can not even install. It runs fine in virtualbox.


----------



## nvidiaftw12

Bump.


----------



## hajile

bump


----------



## linuxfueled

Oracle VM virtual box. So I can run as many OS I want at any given time.

http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/4.1.8/VirtualBox-4.1.8-75467-Win.exe


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *linuxfueled*
> 
> Oracle VM virtual box. So I can run as many OS I want at any given time.
> http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/4.1.8/VirtualBox-4.1.8-75467-Win.exe


It will always be _Sun_ VirtualBox to me <3


----------



## cab2

It doesn't have to be Linux OR Windows, you can run both SIMULTANEOUSLY. I run 64-bit Ubuntu and Windows as a guest OS using Virtual Box. I can run my Windows apps, and I find the Linux kernel is more stable.


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cab2*
> 
> It doesn't have to be Linux OR Windows, you can run both SIMULTANEOUSLY. I run 64-bit Ubuntu and Windows as a guest OS using Virtual Box. I can run my Windows apps, and I find the Linux kernel is more stable.


I agree it doesn't have to be Linux or Windows, but from then on I disagreed. For me, it's Linux and FreeBSD


----------



## hajile

bump


----------



## .:hybrid:.

Every year I retry linux, yet I always end up going back to windows. (Although each year I do get a bit better with the terminal







)

My latest attempt was kubuntu, I spent a while getting the KDE interface to look how I wanted it to, then suddenly it crashed, and all transparent objects turned black. No idea what happened, since I was just changing options from within the included KDE themer. Never did manage to fix it







It looked so pretty too.

I try to use as much FOSS software as I can on windows though, but I really love MS Word and Photoshop. While Libre is a fine alternative, I have yet to find something to replace Photoshop. I really tried GIMP, but it's just not on the same level.

That being said, I am definatly looking at putting linux on my laptop. But for my desktop, windows is staying.


----------



## Mr_Torch

Hybrid, try Linux Mint 13.
Download the 'Mate' version, then mod it to your hearts delight.


----------



## .:hybrid:.

Will do


----------



## andrewmchugh

I use linux as my main OS, I only have windows for directX games.


----------



## .:hybrid:.

Ok, so I'm really enjoying Mint so far, however I miss 1 thing from kubuntu, and that was if I started typing on the desktop, a searchbox would automatically drop down. Anyone know what that was called?


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.:hybrid:.*
> 
> Ok, so I'm really enjoying Mint so far, however I miss 1 thing from kubuntu, and that was if I started typing on the desktop, a searchbox would automatically drop down. Anyone know what that was called?


klauncher, but it's an integral part of KDE4 and (AFAIK) cannot be installed separately. It's also initiated when pressing [alt]+[F2] even if you're not sat on the desktop. Very handy.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Well, I took Latty's Linux Challenge. It has been a long two weeks filled with many emotion's but in the end I was able to get Mint 13 installed along side Windows XP Pro. For a little bit I thought the B43 driver and firmware had beaten me but thanks to a few fellow OCN member's I was able to correct my noobishness









I must say, I like Mint 13 Cinnamon very much, work's very well on my decade old laptop


----------



## Pip Boy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.:hybrid:.*
> 
> Ok, so I'm really enjoying Mint so far, however I miss 1 thing from kubuntu, and that was if I started typing on the desktop, a searchbox would automatically drop down. Anyone know what that was called?


out of interest have you tried mint kde ?

im really enjoying it TBH. it feels very polished.


----------



## dklic6

I've been using linux off and on for about a year and finally committed to it after this thread. I've got 4/5 machines running a linux of some sort. FreeNas, Lubuntu, Ubuntu12.04, Crunch Bang #!, and Puppy for a live disk. Cif mounts were a pain in the butt.


----------



## Aspateer

tho i have used linux in the past.... to be quite honest as a gamer i feel windows is a better match to my needs. sure you always have wine which will get SOME games to work, but why bother with the hassle... as for the rest, i enjoy the programs i currently use, and i do know there are great alternatives on linux for nearly everything.... it makes no logical sense to switch when i will be in windows 99% of the time. now if i was using my computer to slice thru wep or wpa encryption then sure linux would be the better solution, and when i last used linux the only reason was a wonderful program called metasploit. people always give the argument about virus's as why they use linux.... the reason there are no real virus's on linux is because of the miniscule amount of the market share linux has.... look at it from a business standpoint..... say this virus is your product, you want your customer base to be millions of people worldwide, or a handful of people on a small desert island somewhere? tho this is quite exaggerated, for the most part its true. do not get me wrong, linux is still a great os, especially for people who like choices, there are hundreds of distros and most of them are completely customizable to suit the users needs and preferences, but for general computing, its just not for everyone.


----------



## lattyware

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aspateer*
> 
> tho i have used linux in the past.... to be quite honest as a gamer i feel windows is a better match to my needs. sure you always have wine which will get SOME games to work, but why bother with the hassle... as for the rest, i enjoy the programs i currently use, and i do know there are great alternatives on linux for nearly everything.... it makes no logical sense to switch when i will be in windows 99% of the time. now if i was using my computer to slice thru wep or wpa encryption then sure linux would be the better solution, and when i last used linux the only reason was a wonderful program called metasploit. people always give the argument about virus's as why they use linux.... the reason there are no real virus's on linux is because of the miniscule amount of the market share linux has.... look at it from a business standpoint..... say this virus is your product, you want your customer base to be millions of people worldwide, or a handful of people on a small desert island somewhere? tho this is quite exaggerated, for the most part its true. do not get me wrong, linux is still a great os, especially for people who like choices, there are hundreds of distros and most of them are completely customizable to suit the users needs and preferences, but for general computing, its just not for everyone.


Thanks for listing off your selection of recycled arguments which don't ring true these days.

The 'Linux only has no viruses because there is no market' idea is insane, servers? android?. The Linux market is bigger than the windows one if you think of all systems and not just home PCs.


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lattyware*
> 
> Thanks for listing off your selection of recycled arguments which don't ring true these days.
> The 'Linux only has no viruses because there is no market' idea is insane, servers? android?. The Linux market is bigger than the windows one if you think of all systems and not just home PCs.


Plus servers are a more popular target than desktops - for reasons that should be obvious to everyone.

Besides, virus's are pretty much a thing of the past these days. The vast majority of time, malware are spread by OS / software vulnerabilities or social engineering (I'm including trojans here) and most of the malware is either spyware or daemons for bot nets. Standalone executables are rarely distributed peer to peer like the old days where I'd just pop around a mates house with the Doom 2 on 3.5" floppy disks, so there's little point in writing self-replicating code. Particularly when such malware is also trickier to write and more likely to get detected by anti-virus heuristics. It's far easier to bulk send fake e-mails pointing to a booby trapped web sites (which brings us back round to why servers are more popular targets than desktops)


----------



## Xenthos

I used to run Linux, for the improved performance, slim-lined OS and zero cost.
Ever since SSDs and RT7Lite I no longer have a (personal) reason to run Linux.
Windows 7 will do anything just as fast with less things to worry about.
Those things being; drivers and MSOffice work.
Free alternatives to MSOffice always manage to ruin the layout of a simple Word document.
Drivers; especially AMD or new Nvidia drivers.
I rarely game these days, but I do remember the hassle of making a game run, that runs flawless on Win7.
So yeah... former Linux fan here.


----------



## cdoublejj

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xenthos*
> 
> I used to run Linux, for the improved performance, slim-lined OS and zero cost.
> Ever since SSDs and RT7Lite I no longer have a (personal) reason to run Linux.
> Windows 7 will do anything just as fast with less things to worry about.
> Those things being; drivers and MSOffice work.
> Free alternatives to MSOffice always manage to ruin the layout of a simple Word document.
> Drivers; especially AMD or new Nvidia drivers.
> I rarely game these days, but I do remember the hassle of making a game run, that runs flawless on Win7.
> So yeah... former Linux fan here.


Nothing wrong wit that. Windows 7 does any thing i want as well. i can run it fully featured or i can turn off system services and switch to windows classic theme and drop down memory usage to 300mb idle, on Prescott with 1gb ram and Nvidia Ti4200 (yup drivers work too).

I like to play with linux and test stuff one wine for fun, I like to play with OSX x86 from time to time.


----------



## drbaltazar

so i game on windows but do everything else on ubuntu?that concept will never fly.why .most gamer have skype ,facebook etc etc etc WHILE gaming .


----------



## M3T4LM4N222

I've been building and working on PC's as a personal hobby for over 4 years and I am one of the people who's tried Linux and within minutes have decided "I don't like it" then switch back to Windows. I am just now giving Ubuntu 12.10 a try and so far I am very impressed. I just installed it on my Toshiba Satellite L755-S5246 and i've managed to get Netflix working, the web browsing does more than fine and I can use Libreoffice for my word processing. I am going to test HD content with it by plugging it into my HDTV and if it works I may switch to using Ubuntu on my laptop.

BY the way. Ubuntu 12.10 is absolutely gorgeous. The "App Bar?" works perfectly and the text looks great. I was hoping for better battery life but i'm not really seeing that. No biggie.


----------



## nooboc2012

Linux is great for programming and learning computers/operating systems. It's the only time I'd really use it.


----------



## jrl1357

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M3T4LM4N222*
> 
> I've been building and working on PC's as a personal hobby for over 4 years and I am one of the people who's tried Linux and within minutes have decided "I don't like it" then switch back to Windows. I am just now giving Ubuntu 12.10 a try and so far I am very impressed. I just installed it on my Toshiba Satellite L755-S5246 and i've managed to get Netflix working, the web browsing does more than fine and I can use Libreoffice for my word processing. I am going to test HD content with it by plugging it into my HDTV and if it works I may switch to using Ubuntu on my laptop.
> 
> BY the way. Ubuntu 12.10 is absolutely gorgeous. The "App Bar?" works perfectly and the text looks great. I was hoping for better battery life but i'm not really seeing that. No biggie.


battery life is a weak point. there might be some ways to squeeze better out of it though, do you have all the power management settings turn on? do you have the laptop set to suspend when not in use?


----------



## Lettuceman

I love Linux, I really do. It's fun to try it with. But I can't be bothered running two os's, so I stick with Windows.

Why? Because I haven't run into something I can't run on Windows that I need, and games.

There is such a huge back catalog of games, that even if Linux were to get game support in the future, there are still, ton of games missing.

I tried dual booting, but I just ended up going into windows anyways

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Plan9

I'm a full time Linux user. Have been for the best part of a decade now. These days I have more problems finding Windows equivalents for Linux programs.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lettuceman*
> 
> There is such a huge back catalog of games, that even if Linux were to get game support in the future, there are still, ton of games missing.


The back catalog stuff Linux plays. Or at least all the stuff I've tried has played fine.

In fact I'm just installing one of my old PC games from 1994, which I've not touched in years


----------



## jrl1357

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lettuceman*
> 
> I love Linux, I really do. It's fun to try it with. But I can't be bothered running two os's, so I stick with Windows.
> 
> Why? Because I haven't run into something I can't run on Windows that I need, and games.
> 
> There is such a huge back catalog of games, that even if Linux were to get game support in the future, there are still, ton of games missing.
> 
> I tried dual booting, but I just ended up going into windows anyways
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Plan9*
> 
> I'm a full time Linux user. Have been for the best part of a decade now. These days I have more problems finding Windows equivalents for Linux programs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Lettuceman*
> 
> There is such a huge back catalog of games, that even if Linux were to get game support in the future, there are still, ton of games missing.
> 
> 
> 
> The back catalog stuff Linux plays. Or at least all the stuff I've tried has played fine.
> 
> In fact I'm just installing one of my old PC games from 1994, which I've not touched in years
Click to expand...

first thing that comes to mind with the first statement above is: why would you need every game? I mean, it's like no I must have game A instead of game B which is almost the same with a slightly different set of weapons. Get over it. Provided you arn't the 'I must have this one game, and no other alternative' type then linux has more then enough now, it will only grow and youcan use an OS which isn't total crap

@nooboc-

1. How is it better for programing? you can write the same code anywhere.
2. Why? it's so much better then windows it's unbelievable. someone who says I use it for learning but nothing else says one thing to me: said person has never really used linux for more then 5 minutes


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> first thing that comes to mind with the first statement above is: why would you need every game? I mean, it's like no I must have game A instead of game B which is almost the same with a slightly different set of weapons. Get over it. Provided you arn't the 'I must have this one game, and no other alternative' type then linux has more then enough now, it will only grow and youcan use an OS which isn't total crap
> 
> @nooboc-
> 
> 1. How is it better for programing? you can write the same code anywhere.
> 2. Why? it's so much better then windows it's unbelievable. *someone who says I use it for learning but nothing else says one thing to me: said person has never really used linux for more then 5 minutes*


Your one of "those" linux user's....... ohh joy.

I have been gladly dual booting Win7/Mint for a while now. I use linux for learning. I run it on my sig rig and I also run Linux on my home server. I use linux every day.

There is no real answer to this "what's better Linux or windows or apple". In my opinion Windows is better because windows supports everything I personally do. Until Linux has support for netflix and the game's I play then it's a flawed OS for my personal use. I still use it for a lot though.


----------



## jrl1357

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> first thing that comes to mind with the first statement above is: why would you need every game? I mean, it's like no I must have game A instead of game B which is almost the same with a slightly different set of weapons. Get over it. Provided you arn't the 'I must have this one game, and no other alternative' type then linux has more then enough now, it will only grow and youcan use an OS which isn't total crap
> 
> @nooboc-
> 
> 1. How is it better for programing? you can write the same code anywhere.
> 2. Why? it's so much better then windows it's unbelievable. *someone who says I use it for learning but nothing else says one thing to me: said person has never really used linux for more then 5 minutes*
> 
> 
> 
> Your one of "those" linux user's....... ohh joy.
> 
> I have been gladly dual booting Win7/Mint for a while now. I use linux for learning. I run it on my sig rig and I also run Linux on my home server. I use linux every day.
> 
> There is no real answer to this "what's better Linux or windows or apple". In my opinion Windows is better because windows supports everything I personally do. Until Linux has support for netflix and the game's I play then it's a flawed OS for my personal use. I still use it for a lot though.
Click to expand...

flawed implies a failure in design, unsupported is best. However, netflix can be played in a patched version of wine. a PPA's available for buntu OSes, just install the 32-bit libs, add the PPA and go apt-get install netflix-desktop. when I was using ubuntu server it worked great.


----------



## Lettuceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Lettuceman*
> 
> I love Linux, I really do. It's fun to try it with. But I can't be bothered running two os's, so I stick with Windows.
> 
> Why? Because I haven't run into something I can't run on Windows that I need, and games.
> 
> There is such a huge back catalog of games, that even if Linux were to get game support in the future, there are still, ton of games missing.
> 
> I tried dual booting, but I just ended up going into windows anyways
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Plan9*
> 
> I'm a full time Linux user. Have been for the best part of a decade now. These days I have more problems finding Windows equivalents for Linux programs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Lettuceman*
> 
> There is such a huge back catalog of games, that even if Linux were to get game support in the future, there are still, ton of games missing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The back catalog stuff Linux plays. Or at least all the stuff I've tried has played fine.
> 
> In fact I'm just installing one of my old PC games from 1994, which I've not touched in years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> first thing that comes to mind with the first statement above is: why would you need every game? I mean, it's like no I must have game A instead of game B which is almost the same with a slightly different set of weapons. Get over it. Provided you arn't the 'I must have this one game, and no other alternative' type then linux has more then enough now, it will only grow and youcan use an OS which isn't total crap
> 
> @nooboc-
> 
> 1. How is it better for programing? you can write the same code anywhere.
> 2. Why? it's so much better then windows it's unbelievable. someone who says I use it for learning but nothing else says one thing to me: said person has never really used linux for more then 5 minutes
Click to expand...

Because there are plenty of old games that I go back to play, so back catalog support is important.
Either way, Linux is still not a good gaming machine. Many of the games I play have a silver rating or less at the WineHQ site.

I can't play GW2 without problems, Battlefield 3 just doesn't work, fifa 13 I just looked and it has bad frame rate...how am I supposed to use Linux when it can't run any of the games I want.

What is the point of using Linux over Windows when I want my machine to do all the things I want it to?


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lettuceman*
> 
> Because there are plenty of old games that I go back to play, so back catalog support is important.
> Either way, Linux is still not a good gaming machine. Many of the games I play have a silver rating or less at the WineHQ site.
> 
> I can't play GW2 without problems, Battlefield 3 just doesn't work, fifa 13 I just looked and it has bad frame rate...how am I supposed to use Linux when it can't run any of the games I want.
> 
> What is the point of using Linux over Windows when I want my machine to do all the things I want it to?


To be fair mate, I understand and agree with you entirely. If you can't play the games you want then there's no point running the OS. jrl1357 is a genuinely nice guy, but he can get a little preachy sometimes. There's no malice about it, he's just wanting to share something he loves with the rest of the world


----------



## Stige

I absolutely love Linux and would switch to it in an instant if I could stop playing games.
I do use it daily as I got 2 servers that run Debian and Gentoo on them but that is hardly desktop usage.

From time to time I do install Linux and honestly I just love everything about it, if I don't feel like gaming then it is absolutely a better OS than Windows has ever been.
Even now I got Ubuntu on a second partition because I wanted to give Steam Linux (And Crossfire) a shot.

A year or so back I actually did one of those silly "xx likes and I won't use Windows for a month" on Facebook and, well it happened.
And I'm still alive! Sure I couldn't play BF3 but I really don't play it that often, I actually had hard time coming back to Windows for daily use, the games are the only thing stopping me from switching sides in an instant, Linux is just that awesome.

Just my 2 cents really.


----------



## ImmortalKenny

Can anyone comment on Adobe CS6/CS5 performance in Wine?

That's honestly the really only thing that's holding me back from switching. I *need* Photoshop/Illustrator/Fireworks/etc.


----------



## Stige

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImmortalKenny*
> 
> Can anyone comment on Adobe CS6/CS5 performance in Wine?
> 
> That's honestly the really only thing that's holding me back from switching. I *need* Photoshop/Illustrator/Fireworks/etc.


GIMP? Should work pretty well.


----------



## ImmortalKenny

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stige*
> 
> GIMP? Should work pretty well.


I've tried it in the past and it didn't really work well _for me_ as a Photoshop replacement.


----------



## jrl1357

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImmortalKenny*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Stige*
> 
> GIMP? Should work pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried it in the past and it didn't really work well _for me_ as a Photoshop replacement.
Click to expand...

What kind of plugins were you using? I agree that as default it's little lacking, but suited with the right plugins I've find it fine. I don't do any pro level stuff though.

@plan9

Not if I should argue or say thank you...

Anyway I might be a little biased as someone who both sucks at games and gets board with them very quickly, but if BF3 doesn't work, why not play MW? I know that's a touchy issue with gamers but it's not as if no current gen FPS games work.

Mainly I would likey dualboot too if I played games, but 'flaw' lies in design, not support. I suppose there for you could say why am I not using fount9 or a debootstraped l4 with everything compiled from source, but you get the idea.


----------



## Stige

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImmortalKenny*
> 
> I've tried it in the past and it didn't really work well _for me_ as a Photoshop replacement.


It requires a bit of getting used to I think, just like when I switched from Vegas to Premiere for video editing, I was hell of a confused at first but I'm glad I did now.

Just google some tutorials and stuff to learn the basics it should be more than sufficient and plugins should come a long way in getting features you might need.


----------



## Lettuceman

You can't simply just replace games with other games. I picked that game for a reason.
If Linux could play games, I'd switch over in an instant, but it can't so I use windows. Windows isn't even a bad os.

Os should be shaped to the user, not the other way around

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Stige

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lettuceman*
> 
> You can't simply just replace games with other games. I picked that game for a reason.
> If Linux could play games, I'd switch over in an instant, but it can't so I use windows. Windows isn't even a bad os.
> 
> Os should be shaped to the user, not the other way around
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


Windows isn't bad but Linux is just so much better :l


----------



## jrl1357

I beg to differ. There are many ways in which windows is bad.

1. Startup ram- almost 900MBS. that is just crazy
2. lack of shard libs. more ram with every program opened
3. lack of any real version controlled package manager repository type deal.
4. HUGE disk foot space, and the failure of dlls means that over the course of a couple of year each update adds GBs of data.
5. lack of easy upgrade options. you almost have to reinstall everytime you upgrade.
6. viruses. this is huge, the number of viruses for linux is almost nil. there are some out there, but the massive numebr of visuses for windows mean an anti-virus suite bogging down your computer.
7. cost. I wouldn't touch it if it was free, but for $100? microsoft is rapeing all of its customers.
8. lack of configurability, without third party, farther bloating programs.
9. comes with internet explorer install








10. lacks any decent system settings. Mouse focus is a pain to find, as are other settings like that for printers, scanners, bluetooth, etc.
11. need to install drivers. I'm ready to go as soon as linux installs. With windows I have to install drivers for everything, my gpu, my nic, my chipset, bluetooth, every printer/scanner and a large percentage of third party stuff.

now again I'm not a gamer so 'can't replace games with other games' sounds _very_ childish, so though that may be worth it to stay with windows for you, 'linux can't play games' simply is not correct.

and your statment 'OS should be around the user' holds true for almost anything but windows. WIndows is a slab of no customization. *nix can be shaped to just about anything you want.


----------



## Shrak

^ @ #7, try $200 for the full thing, $100 for the bare minimum.







What they need is to just make 1 OS, with all of the features, and charge 1 price. Not make 8 different variants with different features.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lettuceman*
> 
> Because there are plenty of old games that I go back to play, so back catalog support is important.
> Either way, Linux is still not a good gaming machine. Many of the games I play have a silver rating or less at the WineHQ site.
> 
> I can't play GW2 without problems, Battlefield 3 just doesn't work, fifa 13 I just looked and it has bad frame rate...how am I supposed to use Linux when it can't run any of the games I want.
> 
> What is the point of using Linux over Windows when I want my machine to do all the things I want it to?


Most older games work flawlessly in my experience of testing a couple hundred of them ( including a good number of newer games ). It's only really newer games that have issues, more specifically games that are DX10 or higher as WINE doesn't have that fully integrated yet. BF3 is DX10 minimum so it doesn't work. The other problems are lesser known or popular games, as WINE isn't going to work on supporting games that no one wants to play, or rather few people want to play. If you want a game to work then brush up on your programming skills and make a patch for WINE, after all it is opensource. Not Linux's fault though so don't blame Linux. Blame the publishers for not releasing OpenGL alternatives, or blame Microsoft for their dirty tactics in making sure DirectX was more mainstream and not allowing Linux to use it native. Linux itself can play games beautifully when they're native, the problem is people not making many games for it.

Also, take WineHQ ratings with a grain of salt. While some are actually pretty good and in depth, a number of them are half assed attempts and sometimes not even that much effort is put into them, then people rate them badly. I've gotten many of my games to run smoothly that had bad WineHQ ratings, WINE isn't just plug and play, sometimes it takes a bit of fiddling.

That said, if you are a gamer and aren't the fiddling type, then obviously Linux isn't for you. As right now, until Steam finishes it's Linux client, gaming on Linux is an area where things are going to need fiddling around. Linux has still come a loooooooooooong way in the past 4 years, and if the past 4 years is any sign of whats coming, then you can bet it won't be too long before there is more AAA gaming on Linux.


----------



## Plan9

I hate Windows so much. Never liked it - not even in the 9x days and most certainly not now.

Switching to Linux was a necessity for my own sanity and BeOS wasn't gaining much traction, Mac OS (back then) sucked even worse than Windows, and all the other great desktop OSs of the 90s were either dead, priced out consumers reach, or both.

The only decent OS Microsoft have ever released is Windows 2000: it was clean, efficient and non-intrusive yet very powerful. It did what all good OSs do: it kept out of the way unless the user demanded otherwise. It just worked.

But every other OS MS have released has either been completely lacklustre or overbearing. And I'm including 3.1, DOS, Xenix and Microsoft Basic. Quite honestly, year on year, Microsoft have consistently failed to release a competitive OS when compared to many other software firms. But sadly the quality of the software often has no baring on its success.


----------



## nvidiaftw12

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> I beg to differ. There are many ways in which windows is bad.
> 
> 1. Startup ram- almost 900MBS. that is just crazy
> 2. lack of shard libs. more ram with every program opened
> 3. lack of any real version controlled package manager repository type deal.
> 4. HUGE disk foot space, and the failure of dlls means that over the course of a couple of year each update adds GBs of data.
> 5. lack of easy upgrade options. you almost have to reinstall everytime you upgrade.
> *6. viruses. this is huge, the number of viruses for linux is almost nil. there are some out there, but the massive numebr of visuses for windows mean an anti-virus suite bogging down your computer.*
> 7. cost. I wouldn't touch it if it was free, but for $100? microsoft is rapeing all of its customers.
> 8. lack of configurability, without third party, farther bloating programs.
> 9. comes with internet explorer install
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10. lacks any decent system settings. Mouse focus is a pain to find, as are other settings like that for printers, scanners, bluetooth, etc.
> 11. need to install drivers. I'm ready to go as soon as linux installs. With windows I have to install drivers for everything, my gpu, my nic, my chipset, bluetooth, every printer/scanner and a large percentage of third party stuff.
> 
> now again I'm not a gamer so 'can't replace games with other games' sounds _very_ childish, so though that may be worth it to stay with windows for you, 'linux can't play games' simply is not correct.
> 
> and your statment 'OS should be around the user' holds true for almost anything but windows. WIndows is a slab of no customization. *nix can be shaped to just about anything you want.


If everyone started using linux, there would be a considerable amount of viruses for it as well.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shrak*
> 
> ^ @ #7, try $200 for the full thing, $100 for the bare minimum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What they need is to just make 1 OS, with all of the features, and charge 1 price. Not make 8 different variants with different features.


That's not entirly true, many copies of Windows 8 were sold for $15. Then again, it is complete garbage.


----------



## jrl1357

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nvidiaftw12*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> I beg to differ. There are many ways in which windows is bad.
> 
> 1. Startup ram- almost 900MBS. that is just crazy
> 
> 2. lack of shard libs. more ram with every program opened
> 
> 3. lack of any real version controlled package manager repository type deal.
> 
> 4. HUGE disk foot space, and the failure of dlls means that over the course of a couple of year each update adds GBs of data.
> 
> 5. lack of easy upgrade options. you almost have to reinstall everytime you upgrade.
> *6. viruses. this is huge, the number of viruses for linux is almost nil. there are some out there, but the massive numebr of visuses for windows mean an anti-virus suite bogging down your computer.*
> 
> 7. cost. I wouldn't touch it if it was free, but for $100? microsoft is rapeing all of its customers.
> 
> 8. lack of configurability, without third party, farther bloating programs.
> 
> 9. comes with internet explorer install
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10. lacks any decent system settings. Mouse focus is a pain to find, as are other settings like that for printers, scanners, bluetooth, etc.
> 
> 11. need to install drivers. I'm ready to go as soon as linux installs. With windows I have to install drivers for everything, my gpu, my nic, my chipset, bluetooth, every printer/scanner and a large percentage of third party stuff.
> 
> now again I'm not a gamer so 'can't replace games with other games' sounds _very_ childish, so though that may be worth it to stay with windows for you, 'linux can't play games' simply is not correct.
> 
> and your statment 'OS should be around the user' holds true for almost anything but windows. WIndows is a slab of no customization. *nix can be shaped to just about anything you want.
> 
> 
> 
> If everyone started using linux, there would be a considerable amount of viruses for it as well.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Shrak*
> 
> ^ @ #7, try $200 for the full thing, $100 for the bare minimum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What they need is to just make 1 OS, with all of the features, and charge 1 price. Not make 8 different variants with different features.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not entirly true, many copies of Windows 8 were sold for $15. Then again, it is complete garbage.
Click to expand...

as for your viruses comment, that's not %100 true. While yes, no one writes viruses for linux, it is also by design more secure. Provided everything was installed via package manager there would be almost no Trojan horses, certain type of spyware, etc etc. as well any viruses that load on boot would have to be started as services or kernel modules. neither is impossible but more secured then starting a windows service. that and the fact most linux installers won't even let you be admin would cut everything down a lot. Plus everything is so fractured it would be hard to write viruses for anything but the most popular and expect them to spread. To top if off, unlike the windows filesystem which is a mess of odd folders, dlls, and the farther file bloat of patches and updates the packages of a linux/unix filesystem leave little place for viruses to hide. unless your dumb enough to be using a root account watching your torrented videos and browsing shady sites while you agree to run odd files off the web, you likely wouldn't anitvirus and it could be a lot thinner at that. Android style devices with open app stores will be a problem (in fact I had to remove an app that was spamming me on my galaxy tab) but Debian, Arch, even Ubuntu are pretty safe. even if that was to happen they would likely use a system already used by fedora called selinux, which is a pain but makes it almost impossible for anyone to put anything malicious on your computer.


----------



## Shrak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nvidiaftw12*
> 
> That's not entirly true, many copies of Windows 8 were sold for $15. Then again, it is complete garbage.


And then something at Microsoft ticked and we have 8 days till the price is back to $200


----------



## nvidiaftw12

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> as for your viruses comment, that's not %100 true. While yes, no one writes viruses for linux, it is also by design more secure. Provided everything was installed via package manager there would be almost no Trojan horses, certain type of spyware, etc etc. as well any viruses that load on boot would have to be started as services or kernel modules. neither is impossible but more secured then starting a windows service. that and the fact most linux installers won't even let you be admin would cut everything down a lot. Plus everything is so fractured it would be hard to write viruses for anything but the most popular and expect them to spread. To top if off, unlike the windows filesystem which is a mess of odd folders, dlls, and the farther file bloat of patches and updates the packages of a linux/unix filesystem leave little place for viruses to hide. unless your dumb enough to be using a root account watching your torrented videos and browsing shady sites while you agree to run odd files off the web, you likely wouldn't anitvirus and it could be a lot thinner at that. Android style devices with open app stores will be a problem (in fact I had to remove an app that was spamming me on my galaxy tab) but Debian, Arch, even Ubuntu are pretty safe. even if that was to happen they would likely use a system already used by fedora called selinux, which is a pain but makes it almost impossible for anyone to put anything malicious on your computer.


I know. At first I was going to say just as many, but I reworded it, as that would have been untrue.


----------



## jrl1357

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nvidiaftw12*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> as for your viruses comment, that's not %100 true. While yes, no one writes viruses for linux, it is also by design more secure. Provided everything was installed via package manager there would be almost no Trojan horses, certain type of spyware, etc etc. as well any viruses that load on boot would have to be started as services or kernel modules. neither is impossible but more secured then starting a windows service. that and the fact most linux installers won't even let you be admin would cut everything down a lot. Plus everything is so fractured it would be hard to write viruses for anything but the most popular and expect them to spread. To top if off, unlike the windows filesystem which is a mess of odd folders, dlls, and the farther file bloat of patches and updates the packages of a linux/unix filesystem leave little place for viruses to hide. unless your dumb enough to be using a root account watching your torrented videos and browsing shady sites while you agree to run odd files off the web, you likely wouldn't anitvirus and it could be a lot thinner at that. Android style devices with open app stores will be a problem (in fact I had to remove an app that was spamming me on my galaxy tab) but Debian, Arch, even Ubuntu are pretty safe. even if that was to happen they would likely use a system already used by fedora called selinux, which is a pain but makes it almost impossible for anyone to put anything malicious on your computer.
> 
> 
> 
> I know. At first I was going to say just as many, but I reworded it, as that would have been untrue.
Click to expand...

we do have a bit an advantage in terms of how small we are (the linux on the desktop type that is) personally I want linux to grow for more support, but I would be happy if it just got up to and staying around say 1-2% of the desktop laptop share (not including android here, just GNU linux) rather then it's like 0.01% now.

EDIT--

not including chromeos either


----------



## Lettuceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> now again I'm not a gamer so 'can't replace games with other games' sounds _very_ childish, so though that may be worth it to stay with windows for you, 'linux can't play games' simply is not correct.
> 
> and your statment 'OS should be around the user' holds true for almost anything but windows. WIndows is a slab of no customization. *nix can be shaped to just about anything you want.


Well if it is childish that I don't want to replace the games I love, then fine by me I won't grow up.







It isn't so simple as "hey, I'll just play another game instead". I grow attached to certain games and series. I have my favorites, you can't just replace that.

I'm not trying to say that Linux is a bad OS or something, I really like Linux. I played around with Arch Linux and enjoyed my time, and if Linux had better game support I'd use it. But it doesn't, so it just isn't for me. Which makes me sad cause I'd use it if it did, but I'm not gonna go for workarounds to use software I want to use.

Still, I hope that Linux grows with Steam for Linux. I really do.

And maybe when Wine supports DX10 stuff, I'll take a look again.


----------



## hajile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nvidiaftw12*
> 
> If everyone started using linux, there would be a considerable amount of viruses for it as well.
> That's not entirly true, many copies of Windows 8 were sold for $15. Then again, it is complete garbage.


The world runs on Linux. Most of the worlds servers are Linux (and more importantly, the servers worth breaking into are Linux). Exploiting Linux to gain access to (for example) Facebook's complete dataset would be profitable enough for any hacker to retire immediately afterward. These large servers are attacked quite frequently and sometimes exploits can be found (such as the Chinese attack on Google a couple of years ago). The hardness of Linux targets seems to be much greater than their windows counterparts.

Android and iOS both run *NIX operating systems. The total number of these portable devices is quickly approaching the total number of PCs. Despite this, neither iOS nor Android have had any "viruses". iOS has only had a handful or so of malware apps make it into the walled garden while even the less-reviewed Android Market has had fairly little malware trouble compared to PCs (and all malware on Android is specifically given permission to install by the user).

If anything, the only reason for increased infection of Linux systems is an influx of uninformed or uncaring users who always choose dancing pigs over even the most basic and fundamental security measures.


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> These large servers are attacked quite frequently and sometimes exploits can be found (such as the Chinese attack on Google a couple of years ago).


Unless there's been more than one big attack on Google from China and we're thinking of different events, that attack didn't target Linux. It exploited Google employees running Internet Explorer on Windows.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> The hardness of Linux targets seems to be much greater than their windows counterparts.


I'm not convinced that's as true any more. At least not when you compare like for like: a typical Win7 desktop (with basic anti-virus and UAC enabled) compared to a typical Ubuntu desktop.

The only caveat I'd say is that Microsoft's Security Essentials is constantly failing tests and generally performing the worst out of all the AV suites (both commercial and free).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> Android and iOS both run *NIX operating systems. The total number of these portable devices is quickly approaching the total number of PCs.


More than just approaching, Linux has already doubled Windows' market share. And that's without iOS being included in the stats:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/linux-windows-microsoft-android-ios,20220.html
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> Despite this, neither iOS nor Android have had any "viruses".


Maybe not "viruses" in the correct sense of the term, but viruses aren't really much of an issue on any platform these days. However malware _is_ a big problem on Android
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> iOS has only had a handful or so of malware apps make it into the walled garden while even the less-reviewed Android Market has had fairly little malware trouble compared to PCs (and all malware on Android is specifically given permission to install by the user).


The same is true for a lot of the malware on Windows. The most effective form of infecting a computer is social engineering. The traditional type of viruses (self replicating executables) are almost non-existent these days and drive-by attacks get patched / taken offline relatively quickly. However trojans are as effective now as they've ever been.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> If anything, the only reason for increased infection of Linux systems is an influx of uninformed or uncaring users who always choose dancing pigs over even the most basic and fundamental security measures.


Indeed. The weakest link in most security systems is the human.


----------



## jrl1357

amlware is a huge problem on android. But if anyone ever does write viruses for linux, I would just stick to the package manager and run selinux. In fedora it pevent you from doing almost anything without pain, but I suppose it works.


----------



## hajile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Plan9*
> 
> Unless there's been more than one big attack on Google from China and we're thinking of different events, that attack didn't target Linux. It exploited Google employees running Internet Explorer on Windows.
> 
> *I know there have been multiple attacks (that's why I used the word frequent), but that one made headlines. It's been a while since I read about the compromise, but I thought that they exploited windows to gain passwords and these passwords were used to gain access to Linux machines (which where then compromised using a privilege escalation expoit).*
> 
> I'm not convinced that's as true any more. At least not when you compare like for like: a typical Win7 desktop (with basic anti-virus and UAC enabled) compared to a typical Ubuntu desktop.
> 
> The only caveat I'd say is that Microsoft's Security Essentials is constantly failing tests and generally performing the worst out of all the AV suites (both commercial and free).
> 
> *UAC has been proven to be trivially circumvented. The windows permission system is inherently less secure and backwards compatibility still causes issues (such as the DLL hijacking exploit in late 2010 which exploited a flaw present since windows 95 or 3.x). I can't think of any such vulnerability EVER being discovered in a *NIX system, yet this kind of exploit has occurred many time with windows.
> AV software can help, but blacklisting code strings is NOT real security. The amount of possibly malicious code strings is infinite, so such software is more an indication of a problem than of a real solution (whether this be *NIX or Windows).
> *
> 
> More than just approaching, Linux has already doubled Windows' market share. And that's without iOS being included in the stats:
> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/linux-windows-microsoft-android-ios,20220.html
> 
> *This is what I knew, but I didn't have links on hand and I don't like to make definite statements without proof (thanks for providing that).
> *
> Maybe not "viruses" in the correct sense of the term, but viruses aren't really much of an issue on any platform these days. However malware _is_ a big problem on Android
> The same is true for a lot of the malware on Windows. The most effective form of infecting a computer is social engineering. The traditional type of viruses (self replicating executables) are almost non-existent these days and drive-by attacks get patched / taken offline relatively quickly. However trojans are as effective now as they've ever been.
> Indeed. The weakest link in most security systems is the human.
> 
> *I agree completely that the biggest factor is the human factor. Android malware is a great example of this. Techcrunch had an article last November (2012) which stated that there were tens of thousands of instances of Android malware. The exact amount of this in the Google Play Store was not given; however, it seemed to be implied that most of the malware was from third-party stores in countries outside the United States (and other articles seem to support the Play Store having relatively few malicious applications).
> 
> More interesting is Android malware must TELL you what it is accessing. If a person would look at what privileges software was being given, these malicious events would be prevented (note that no version of Windows states which subsystems of the OS are being accessed, so this is a huge win for Android in prevent-ability).
> 
> The biggest reason why we don't currently have worm epidemics is because the situation has changed. There's not much money in shutting down the web and crashing computers. There is money to be made quietly monitoring and parsing computer traffic to steal sensitive information in an environment where root access might not even be needed. Coders of today know that selling a vulnerability to a corporation or nefarious organization is where the money is, so there's little motivation to start grinding out worms again (and it's worth noting that several of the nastiest worms were either released on accident or got out of control due to coding errors).*


.


----------



## Ecstacy

I'm not going to bash Windows or Linux, but some of the complaints made against Windows are because you're not familiar with Windows or haven't used it in years.

You can upgrade your hardware without re-installing Windows and it'll run just as good if you know how. Just like Linux takes some work, you can completely uninstall the drivers, change the hardware, and re-install the new ones. It isn't a messy hack-job either if you do it right.

Settings are hard for you to find in Windows or you think something is hard or impossible to when it's easy. It's the same way with me if I use Linux. It's easy once you know it, but if you mainly use one operating system you won't be familiar with another.

Not everyone who uses Windows have the problems some people in the Linux community talk about. Most of the problems people have with Windows I've never had, probably because the people having the problems are everyday people who aren't tech savvy and did something they probably shouldn't have. It's the same as me complaining about having problems with Linux because I don't know what I'm doing. The average Linux user is more tech savvy than the average Windows user.

Windows does use more memory than Linux, but if you don't have a million programs it's much less than what some people claim Windows uses, or at least it is for me.

Sometimes drivers are included in Windows, if not Windows Update usually suggests one unless you're using something outdated or uncommon. It's still best to install the latest driver from the manufacture. Drivers for Windows usually perform better than their Linux counterpart, but not always. Sometimes hardware performs better on Linux.

I'm not trying to say Windows is better than Linux, both have their advantages and appeal to different audiences, but before you bash Windows get to know it a little better. Windows definitely has it's flaws, but a lot of them aren't as big as they're made to seem.


----------



## jrl1357

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ecstacy*
> 
> I'm not going to bash Windows or Linux, but some of the complaints made against Windows are because you're not familiar with Windows or haven't used it in years.
> 
> You can upgrade your hardware without re-installing Windows and it'll run just as good if you know how. Just like Linux takes some work, you can completely uninstall the drivers, change the hardware, and re-install the new ones. It isn't a messy hack-job either if you do it right.
> 
> Settings are hard for you to find in Windows or you think something is hard or impossible to when it's easy. It's the same way with me if I use Linux. It's easy once you know it, but if you mainly use one operating system you won't be familiar with another.
> 
> Not everyone who uses Windows have the problems some people in the Linux community talk about. Most of the problems people have with Windows I've never had, probably because the people having the problems are everyday people who aren't tech savvy and did something they probably shouldn't have. It's the same as me complaining about having problems with Linux because I don't know what I'm doing. The average Linux user is more tech savvy than the average Windows user.
> 
> Windows does use more memory than Linux, but if you don't have a million programs it's much less than what some people claim Windows uses, or at least it is for me.
> 
> Sometimes drivers are included in Windows, if not Windows Update usually suggests one unless you're using something outdated or uncommon. It's still best to install the latest driver from the manufacture. Drivers for Windows usually perform better than their Linux counterpart, but not always. Sometimes hardware performs better on Linux.
> 
> I'm not trying to say Windows is better than Linux, both have their advantages and appeal to different audiences, but before you bash Windows get to know it a little better. Windows definitely has it's flaws, but a lot of them aren't as big as they're made to seem.


I am forced to use it every day ay school, and used it for years all the way up to and including 7. I can honestly say I've had 10X more problems in windows then linux.


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> More interesting is Android malware must TELL you what it is accessing. If a person would look at what privileges software was being given, these malicious events would be prevented (note that no version of Windows states which subsystems of the OS are being accessed, so this is a huge win for Android in prevent-ability).


Who actually pays any attention to that?

What's worse is the usefulness of it is being eroded with so much software requesting so many permissions for features that users probably wouldn't care about. So, like with Windows users and SSL cert warnings, users are becoming desensitised to ignoring the permission list.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> The biggest reason why we don't currently have worm epidemics is because the situation has changed. There's not much money in shutting down the web and crashing computers. There is money to be made quietly monitoring and parsing computer traffic to steal sensitive information in an environment where root access might not even be needed. Coders of today know that selling a vulnerability to a corporation or nefarious organization is where the money is, so there's little motivation to start grinding out worms again (and it's worth noting that several of the nastiest worms were either released on accident or got out of control due to coding errors).


Which is what I said in my post








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> UAC has been proven to be trivially circumvented. The windows permission system is inherently less secure and backwards compatibility still causes issues (such as the DLL hijacking exploit in late 2010 which exploited a flaw present since windows 95 or 3.x). I can't think of any such vulnerability EVER being discovered in a *NIX system, yet this kind of exploit has occurred many time with windows.


You're on about the hack where attackers would hijack the DLL of Notepad (or another Microsoft application that was whitelisted in the UAC)? Dumbest flaw ever that one. Why MS thought it was a good idea is beyond me.

Either way, that flaw is more than 2 years old and has been patched already.

And for the record, Linux does have it's own issues with similar flaws. In fact there was a pretty big vulnerability found in both VMWare and the KVM hypervisors that allowed people to escape virtual machine and control the host bare metal hardware. So it's not like Linux is automatically perfect.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Windows - I hate it in fact. But I do think it's the best it's ever been in terms of security. And I do think that the average Windows desktop isn't really any worse than the average Linux desktop. These days it's generally 3rd party software that causes the issues (or at least with drive by attacks - if a user installs something themselves then it's pretty much game over regardless) and said 3rd party could just as easily be an issue on Linux.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajile*
> 
> AV software can help, but blacklisting code strings is NOT real security. The amount of possibly malicious code strings is infinite, so such software is more an indication of a problem than of a real solution (whether this be *NIX or Windows).


Well, it is real security. It's just not the best form of security. The infinite point you raised, while true, is mitigated for the vast majority of users who keep their AV up to date as security firms use honeypots to catch malware in order to analyse and expand their databases. So while running AV isn't a guaranteed solution (and I have raised that point you've made many times on other forums), it's also undeniably a good asset to have installed.

In reality though, there's no such thing as 100% security so long as a computer can be accessed. But at the end of the day there needs to be a trade off between usability and security. AVs are one such way to provide this trade off - they're not a perfect solution by any means, but running executables locally is never a good solution if you want a 100% secure system









It sounds like we're pretty much on the same page though.


----------



## Rar4f

Would it not be good practice to have Linux for sensitive activities and data like bank account, writing a resume, pictures of yourself etc, and have Windows for games, movies and other insensitive activities?


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rar4f*
> 
> Would it not be good practice to have Linux for sensitive activities on computer like bank account, writing a resume, pictures of yourself etc, and have Windows for games, movies and other insensitive activities?


What sort of pictures of yourself are you taking if that's "sensitive"









Seriously though, Linux will play games and movies just fine. Particularly the latter as many commercial HTPCs are just vanillia Linux with an XBMC fork (eg Boxee, Plex, etc).


----------



## cab2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rar4f*
> 
> Would it not be good practice to have Linux for sensitive activities on computer like bank account, writing a resume, pictures of yourself etc, and have Windows for games, movies and other insensitive activities?


The NSA cannot get into a Linux system, but Windows has a back-door.


----------



## Rar4f

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Plan9*
> 
> *What sort of pictures of yourself are you taking if that's "sensitive"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Seriously though, Linux will play games and movies just fine. Particularly the latter as many commercial HTPCs are just vanillia Linux with an XBMC fork (eg Boxee, Plex, etc).


That's classified information









Seriously though, just pictures of you that you don't feel like sharing with others for whatever reason you may have e.g you don't allow strangers to view pictures of you and your family/or friends on Facebook.

Granted a hacker has little incentive to steal your private pictures, but if your going to use Linux for sensitive activities like logging into your bank account, then it's not a bad idea to have your personal data on there as well.


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cab2*
> 
> The NSA cannot get into a Linux system, but Windows has a back-door.


Some much FUD in that post that I don't even know where to begin.


----------



## mike44njdevils

I tried the challenge with Ubuntu, and frankly will be using a Linux/Windows Dual boot or VM boot in most of my builds from now on. However, my biggest complaint is how linux handles my favorite computer past time: folding. Unfortunately, GPU folding is only semi-supported in Linux. It's very good for SMP (CPU) folding, but when you add in even lower end GPUs, something that takes zero CPU resources in Windows takes up over 50% of the CPU in linux. Also there is the "headaches OC'ing video cards" thing...which again affects folding

Honestly, that bothers me....but it makes sense. Most people folding are "lay people", and have windows. Pande Group tries to make this whole thing very user friendly (at this point it's DL the software, click click add password/team # click click click fold. They have even incorporated monitoring software on their website. Let me give my personal example:

I fold on the following Hardware -
- Intel i5 2500k @ 4.2 Ghz
- GTS 450
- GTS 450

In Linux my highest _estimated_ PPD (points per day) was approx 26k, and my bext folding "day" was just under 35k points.
In Win7, my highest _estimated_ PPD was approx 33k, and my best folding day was over 45k points.

I have EVERY INTENTION of working this problem again in the future on my next rig, but my current rig is what it is.


----------



## Rar4f

Once Linux becomes equal to Windows in game support, i will assassinate Windows 7 and dump the body in a lake


----------



## legoman786

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rar4f*
> 
> Once Linux becomes equal to Windows in game support, i will assassinate Windows 7 and dump the body in a lake


Once, I have another hard drive, I will forcibly take my wife on the train ride with me that is Linux. None on my PC's (Wife's laptop is another story







) will ever see Windows 8, or any version after that. Cloud based for 9 and 10? Yeah, pass. Hard pass.


----------



## Rar4f

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *legoman786*
> 
> Once, I have another hard drive, I will forcibly take my wife on the train ride with me that is Linux. None on my PC's (Wife's laptop is another story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) will ever see Windows 8, or any version after that. Cloud based for 9 and 10? Yeah, pass. Hard pass.


I need games, so need to have Windows 7 :/


----------



## icehotshot

I've tried unbuntu and while the experience wasn't bad, it is definitely not for your average person who just wants to use their pc imo. You can't just go around and install anything you want by just clicking the exe, at least not in my experience.

Getting just steam to run required having to run commands in the terminal to install certain things. Having to do a lot of things by the terminal was annoying in general. Then having to test out many different drivers to see which one gave the best performance was annoying.

I wouldn't mind having it as a second OS on my main comp if only you weren't limited in the games you could play.


----------



## legoman786

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rar4f*
> 
> I need games, so need to have Windows 7 :/


That's why I'll run a separate box with Win 7 on it.


----------



## daniel98

I got away from Windows gaming ( not playing any of those memory hogs ) and moved to Linux because of the variety of included compilers ot has. Recently i started learning python and i was amased to see that even a 280MB live distro had it included

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Plan9

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel98*
> 
> I got away from Windows gaming ( not playing any of those memory hogs ) and moved to Linux because of the variety of included compilers ot has. Recently i started learning python and i was amased to see that even a 280MB live distro had it included
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


These days a lot of management tools are written in Python.


----------



## Hemi177

Just went cold turkey with 13.10 Ubuntu. So far its all smooth sailing and I love the speed


----------



## bilbs84

This is great idea, I'll admit, this is kind of how i converted myself, although it was only a personal challenge that was forced on me when windows broke one day, so I pulled out a Ubuntu live USB id created a sometime before that to TRY, but I didnt give it a chance, so it would up in the draw of junk, and thankfully I still had it, I only intended on Booting, in, downloading a windows ISO, and then going back to windows, however an unplanned ISP outtage during said task forced me into actually using it for a few days, and after a few days, I re-formatted, Installed windows, then Ubuntu as dual boot, and have been using Ubuntu as my main OS ever since, about 2010 I think it was. I want to try arch, but I want to wait untill I have enough for another SSD to put it on, just so I can try it under the conditions I would be using it, instead of installing it on a partition on one of my slow mech drives, and then not being happy with the performance of it.


----------



## dman811

I plan on giving this a try tomorrow, I read the whole article and will be using Linux for my everyday tasks I hope. The original and main reason I am doing this is not because I really want to like Linux (although I would like to) but it is for better performance while folding.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jrl1357*
> 
> I am forced to use it every day ay school, and used it for years all the way up to and including 7. I can honestly say I've had 10X more problems in windows then linux.


Personally I think the biggest risk/problem factor was and still is the user for most problems

Nice anecdotal experience from work: I rather have clueless female behind a PC rather then a man.

Female: I don't understand this, PANIC MODE, call IT support.
Male: I don't understand this, "Must investigate and adjust this myself and break stuff because I actually have no idea *** I'm doing" - MODE, call IT support when everything is completely FUBAR.

As far as Windows goes, if used by someone who knows what he is doing, ever since Windows 7, is rather good imo and Windows 8 (leaving the new Metro menu out of it) is even better resource wise.

Though I've dabbled with Linux (XUbuntu)at work lately and I'm amazed at how it can still run fairly decently on even the crappiest machines. But alas I still play way to much games atm. If directx ever dies a cold bloody death and everything goes openGL I might consider a switch though.

The only OS I truely hate is OSX lol but that's a bit of a personal matter. I just can't wrap my head around Apple products. I wanted to set up some network stuff for an Apple product and I couldn't figure it out because... it was so userfriendly. It's so userfriendly but at the same time so illogical for technical people imo.

The first time I used a Linux distro I had no clue were to start but I got everything up and running faster then on an Apple product because I had control over stuff, all I had to do was some research and the stuff I was doing actually MADE SENSE from my point of view.


----------



## Director9

My 2 cents : with the recent build, I decided to move immediately to Linux (the old machine had run for 2 weeks in linux mode prior to the build in a dualboot) without installing Windows(not that I found it bad, ever since 7 I liked it, but the saving of the addtional cost was welcome). So here I was a pretty complete noob to the linux environment. Having installed thunderbird/firefox as portable on the windows machine allowed me to take the harddrive out of it, and point the profiles in linux install to the folders, easy peasy if you do some lookup work. The wife's happy using it now, getting slowly to find her way about a bit. For normal use, I find linux not very much different to windows. Getting down to business does require some work now and again. Had some work to get a cardreader installed for reading my electronic ID and even had to install a driver to get fancontrol/pwmconfig to see the fans.

So for normal day to day work, mail/internet/the odd picture management/standard office tasks/music linux is definitely on par with windows and should not bother windows users when switching over, just a few weeks of adjustment.

Exotic wishes in terms of hardware, more in-depth-tuning/tweaking/fiddling, specific software(gaming, specialized software,..) might give users a lot more headaches







. Some things might even not be doable under linux.

One important lesson I've learnt, get help, go on forums, google like hell, usually a solution or workaround is there in the vast internet world.


----------



## cab2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Director9*
> 
> My 2 cents : with the recent build, I decided to move immediately to Linux (the old machine had run for 2 weeks in linux mode prior to the build in a dualboot) without installing Windows(not that I found it bad, ever since 7 I liked it, but the saving of the addtional cost was welcome). So here I was a pretty complete noob to the linux environment. Having installed thunderbird/firefox as portable on the windows machine allowed me to take the harddrive out of it, and point the profiles in linux install to the folders, easy peasy if you do some lookup work. The wife's happy using it now, getting slowly to find her way about a bit. For normal use, I find linux not very much different to windows. Getting down to business does require some work now and again. Had some work to get a cardreader installed for reading my electronic ID and even had to install a driver to get fancontrol/pwmconfig to see the fans.
> 
> So for normal day to day work, mail/internet/the odd picture management/standard office tasks/music linux is definitely on par with windows and should not bother windows users when switching over, just a few weeks of adjustment.
> 
> Exotic wishes in terms of hardware, more in-depth-tuning/tweaking/fiddling, specific software(gaming, specialized software,..) might give users a lot more headaches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Some things might even not be doable under linux.
> 
> One important lesson I've learnt, get help, go on forums, google like hell, usually a solution or workaround is there in the vast internet world.


That's the great thing about Firefox and Thunderbird, they're multi-platform, so you can share your user profiles between Windows & Linux.

As for tweaking, you can do a lot more in Linux, but it's more technical. On the plus side, in Linux you don't need to hunt down drivers, everything is included in the kernel or installable from a secure Package Manager. And.... no viruses!


----------



## Director9

Sorry to say, these drivers I did have to search for, had to get a package from elsewhere, specifically the nct6791 . Well maybe it was available through the Package Manager, but I didn't readily find it that way. For the cardreader several packages were available but it took some time figuring out which one I really needed, some contradictory solutions out there (it is to say, very different solutions







)


----------



## Beagle Box

I did Latty's Linux Challenge and I now *run Linux*! :specool:

I didn't even bother to dual boot. I'm not going back. 
The only thing I can't do is run EA's Star Wars Battlefront, which is a fun game on ORIGIN. 

Mint has made it easy. If you haven't tried linux, now's the time.


----------

