# bst's gaming mouse



## Eagle1337

I swear I've seen that thing somewhere else.. that being said bigger side buttons are needed.


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## Limniscate

I'm really excited about it.


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## FatPirate

It look's interesting I may just try it once its out was it mentioned where we could order the thing from once available?


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## Ickz

Wow, very interesting. I never heard anything about this - who's the guy making the mouse? I'm digging the design of it and also curious about the textured plastic bottom half of the shell.


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## Limniscate

Skylit, Bullveyr, Derp, Haiiyaa, h8m3, and Ramla777 are all beta testing it.


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## FatPirate

Oh that's great a bunch of guys that know their stuff can't wait to hear what they think.


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## resis

I like alot what I read and see about this mouse. I want it now.









I am interested in Zowie's EC eVo, but they freak me out with their HUANO's.


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## Thunderbringer

First day buy for me! (the adns3090 one) <3

Edit: @testing-crew: impressions?


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## viowastaken

I registered here just to say holy moly that mouse looks perfect in every way. I just want to find the guy who made it and yell at him to take all of my money right away.


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## whybother

It's basically an mx300 with G400 internals, yet almost everyone wants one. Logitech could have brought this mouse to market. Instead they gave us the G300....


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## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whybother*
> 
> It's basically an mx300 with G400 internals, yet almost everyone wants one. Logitech could have brought this mouse to market. Instead they gave us the G300....


Yep, logitech is sooooo far out of touch. It's really a shame because they have had a history of some legendary mice.


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## detto87

Is this it? Finally?
I hope some previews/opinions pop up soon, I hate the wait. :O


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## Riou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eagle1337*
> 
> I swear I've seen that thing somewhere else.. that being said bigger side buttons are needed.


http://www.i-rocks.com/Product_detail.aspx?CLASS_ID=1028&PRODUCT_ID=1214

It seems to be a modified version of this mouse with entirely different parts inside and outside. The general shell shape is similar.

The MX300 shape is my favorite since I claw-fingertip grip. Can also palm it too.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Riou*
> 
> http://www.i-rocks.com/Product_detail.aspx?CLASS_ID=1028&PRODUCT_ID=1214
> It seems to be a modified version of this mouse with entirely different parts inside and outside. The general shell shape is similar.
> The MX300 shape is my favorite since I claw-fingertip grip.


bst was told about this mouse, and he denied that both mice have the same shell nor internals (it's still there on ESReality forums), to the point to explain that some of the differences in the mouse would require a new mold to be made.


----------



## Riou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> bst was told about this mouse, and he denied that both mice have the same shell nor internals (it's still there on ESReality forums), to the point to explain that some of the differences in the mouse would require a new mold to be made.


That is what he claims. He seems to be using a different sensor (optical instead of laser), lens, PCB, encoder and scroll wheel. Shape is different too. However the way the plastic grooves are on the mouse is similar.


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## resis

Yes, the general design is very similar. Too similar to be coincidental, but that is not a problem, as copying shapes have been going on for years and brought improvements to already good shapes. This mouse has already a better shape (the rear) than the i-rocks mouse.


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## Nivity

Been following this mouse for a long time, looking forward to reports from skylit, derp.

Will buy this anyway though.


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## end0rphine

Yeh should be good sensor wise as well. Bst seems to know how the cursor should behave so that offers a good background. I don't have too many worries about it at the moment. The only thing that irks me is that it's slated to be released in June T_T


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## viowastaken

It seems to me like this is bound to just plain be good no matter what.
Should there be minor firmware/software optimalization possibilities to get the mouse to work flawlessly I'm sure they would be done fast. The community which this mouse caters to is pretty relentless in their persuit of perfection, and the creator seems 100% dedicated to make a kick ass product.


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## resis

... which brings us to a problem, namely if things look perfect, they usually aren't.










In any case, this mouse looks perfe... good.


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## end0rphine

Yeh best not to think about it at the moment. I still remember the valor fiasco...


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## Skar

well from his post i hope he got lucky with the factory he picked.

his statement about the time the factory is in the market etc hints at the very same factory the valor came from ...


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## rlwgone

what were the problems with the valor, sorry for my ignorance, just haven't payed any attention to that mouse.


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## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rlwgone*
> 
> what were the problems with the valor, sorry for my ignorance, just haven't payed any attention to that mouse.


Acceleration, build quality issues, wrong dpi steps.


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## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Yeh best not to think about it at the moment. I still remember the valor fiasco...


Valo what? I don't know what you're talking about. Not at all. No. Lets forget you said anything.


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## MikeRELI

hey guys,

has anyone heard from puretrak regarding the valor anyway? i still have mine. the mouse i received was fine except for the dpi "issues". 500dpi was not working correctly to many peeps standards on here but it wasn't unusable. sorry to say but a lot of you were ignorant on your comments and demands toward puretrak. i was part of the first few that received their valors and yeah mine had the build issues... but i know i was like the first 50 people. puretrak paid for the return shipping and sent me a new one within 24 hours of them getting the original. the new one they sent me, perfect. nick did bust his balls and i'm sure his staff did to. and if you actually read the part when he tells someone to "stop ACTING like a troll", the posts the guy was making was exactly that....... trolling. swearing, bashing, etc.... things you don't do if you're a mature person. and hey i'm not kissing puretraks ass either but credit is due where it's due considering their abilities and probably budget at the time. at the end of the day, to most people, they made a good product which im sure theyre still happy with. i still see a few valors at LANs too. oh and sennheiser did a bundle product with the valor which a few of my mates bought. doubt a company like sennheiser would partner with a product which they think is a fail especially a year after it's been out.

honestly, and no offense to the guys here but i had to stop reading the majority of what the most of you say on here about mice because at the end of the day... it's really whats comfortable for you. i've seen pro gamers completely destroy on mice that a lot of you bash on here for the most insignificant or overblown details. if you ask 99% of the pros who ARENT PAID to promote something..... they'll flat out tell you to just pick what's comfortable and get used to it. hey, i respect a lot of what the most of you say on here... i think it's awesome sometimes. but sometimes it's just ridiculous lol.

anywho, /endrant - i like my valor still and will probably go back to using it sometime soon.

bst's mouse looks promising though for sure.... i just hope he learns how this community works quickly otherwise he'll have a quick bashing firestorm for the smallest things. i'll probably buy this mouse too.... it just worries me about how the design is already out there by a billion different china companies. i don't want to spend $60 or whatever and then 4 months later you can find it somewhere else for $10.


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## viowastaken

While i agree with your point that progamers often use stuff that is blatantly bad and still play well, that isn't enough to discredit the work that people here do.

Even though good gear doesn't automatically make you a better player it does matter quite a bit, and even if it didn't people should have the right to know what is good and what isn't.
Sharing this information is also vital to keep a healthy product pool on the market. This is because it forces the companies who produce mice to focus on bettering things such as removing native acceleration, no jittering, no prediction.

Just like how I won't become better than usain bolt if he runs barefoot and I wear the most expensive shoes on the market, I won't beat any code S caliber starcraft players even if they use a ball mouse and I use my favorite mouse. That argument doesn't hold water. I have not seen a single thread in this subforum indicating that a mouse will be a huge skill improver, that isn't part of the issue. The issue is getting a quality product when you spend your money, which ironically most of the mice on the market today are NOT.

besides, the top features of "comfort" to me;
no prediction
no jitter
no accel.
small-ish size and sub 100g weight.

I currently use the razer abyssus, but I think the shape is subpar. I dislike that you can't fit your ring-finger on the side of the mouse. I still use it because it fits all my other criterea.


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## therealgillz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MikeRELI*
> 
> i've seen pro gamers completely destroy on mice that a lot of you bash on here for the most insignificant or overblown details. if you ask 99% of the pros who ARENT PAID to promote something..... they'll flat out tell you to just pick what's comfortable and get used to it.


Since I consider myself "in-touch" with mice hardware AND professional gamers, I'll comment.

Sponsored players don't get "better" by using hardware from razer/steelseries. If anything, they can play worse. A lot of players who have to use sponsored hardware aren't happy about it. Strenx admitted publically his aim was better with his MX518 than the Kinzu. I've seen lots of players at LAN complain about their hardware received from sponsored. Most miss using their old hardware.

If those mice were indeed better, people wouldn't have to switch when they join a sponsored team. Look at most pros in almost any game, very few CS, Quake, SC2 players are using that kind of gear before they join a team. The story is always the same, a player joins a top team, Razer/Steelseries/whatever sends them gear, they use it. Idra went from a MX300 to Kinzu (could be a Xai but I know he started with a mx300). Cypher went from a WMO to an abyssus. I could keep going but you get the point.

I'm posting this because it's more than what you're just comfortable with, it's performance too. If I saw top unsponsored players using Xais and Kinzus and other gear from those types of companies, it would be a different story, but they're not. Someone going from a WMO to Kinzu after joining a sponsored team only tells me they're forced to change hardware, that's it. If the Kinzu was actually good, they wouldn't be switching mice when they joined a team.


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## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *therealgillz*
> 
> Since I consider myself "in-touch" with mice hardware AND professional gamers, I'll comment.
> Sponsored players don't get "better" by using hardware from razer/steelseries. If anything, they can play worse.


So much truth in this.
I know first hand of a ton of SC2 players who are "officially" listed to use say a razer deathadder, but when i watch their stream I see that they play with a intellimouse 3.0, logitech g1, WMO or even a logitech mini optical.


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## glockateer

The mouse should be pretty good but if it shares the xornet sensor then don't expect to use values besides 500/1000.


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## Genub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *therealgillz*
> 
> Since I consider myself "in-touch" with mice hardware AND professional gamers, I'll comment.
> Sponsored players don't get "better" by using hardware from razer/steelseries. If anything, they can play worse. A lot of players who have to use sponsored hardware aren't happy about it. Strenx admitted publically his aim was better with his MX518 than the Kinzu. I've seen lots of players at LAN complain about their hardware received from sponsored. Most miss using their old hardware.
> If those mice were indeed better, people wouldn't have to switch when they join a sponsored team. Look at most pros in almost any game, very few CS, Quake, SC2 players are using that kind of gear before they join a team. The story is always the same, a player joins a top team, Razer/Steelseries/whatever sends them gear, they use it. Idra went from a MX300 to Kinzu (could be a Xai but I know he started with a mx300). Cypher went from a WMO to an abyssus. I could keep going but you get the point.
> I'm posting this because it's more than what you're just comfortable with, it's performance too. If I saw top unsponsored players using Xais and Kinzus and other gear from those types of companies, it would be a different story, but they're not. Someone going from a WMO to Kinzu after joining a sponsored team only tells me they're forced to change hardware, that's it. If the Kinzu was actually good, they wouldn't be switching mice when they joined a team.


but a lot of those players have been using those mice for years before steelseries and razer were even around. this question should be asked again in 10 years when ppl of today using steelseries mice are "forced" to switch to a new company.


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## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Genub*
> 
> but a lot of those players have been using those mice for years before steelseries and razer were even around. this question should be asked again in 10 years when ppl of today using steelseries mice are "forced" to switch to a new company.


Alot of contestants are kids. Teenagers. They haven't been using those mice that long


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## Genub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Alot of contestants are kids. Teenagers. They haven't been using those mice that long


i doubt it im sure they have been gaming before 2008ish when Steelseries and razer started to become really popular


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## Erio

The mouse looks ugly. Sure the shape is good ,but the design is just plain ugly.
Also they are running problem on which switch to use. The one listed(Omron Japan D2F-01F) only have a life span of 1 million clicks.
He also want to cheap out on the side buttons (the spec sheet is outdated, check the comments). He said those switch "not really worth it for the side buttons imo".
"The Scroll wheel, DPI,and side button switches are Huano" (Ctrl+F to find it)
Hunao are the company that make the Zowie AM buttons. If the switch is like AM then the side button is going to wear out very fast. My AM wear out within one month.
I just can't get excite after valor.


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## viowastaken

^^ valid points, but personally I couldn't possibly care less about the looks of the mouse. And I'll be ordering the version without side buttons as well, so that is another non-issue.


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## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *therealgillz*
> 
> Since I consider myself "in-touch" with mice hardware AND professional gamers, I'll comment.
> Sponsored players don't get "better" by using hardware from razer/steelseries. If anything, they can play worse. A lot of players who have to use sponsored hardware aren't happy about it. Strenx admitted publically his aim was better with his MX518 than the Kinzu. I've seen lots of players at LAN complain about their hardware received from sponsored. Most miss using their old hardware.
> If those mice were indeed better, people wouldn't have to switch when they join a sponsored team. Look at most pros in almost any game, very few CS, Quake, SC2 players are using that kind of gear before they join a team. The story is always the same, a player joins a top team, Razer/Steelseries/whatever sends them gear, they use it. Idra went from a MX300 to Kinzu (could be a Xai but I know he started with a mx300). Cypher went from a WMO to an abyssus. I could keep going but you get the point.
> I'm posting this because it's more than what you're just comfortable with, it's performance too. If I saw top unsponsored players using Xais and Kinzus and other gear from those types of companies, it would be a different story, but they're not. Someone going from a WMO to Kinzu after joining a sponsored team only tells me they're forced to change hardware, that's it. If the Kinzu was actually good, they wouldn't be switching mice when they joined a team.


Yes alot use the sponsored gear, somehow its more common in cs 1.6 then any other game.

SC2 especially, most pros dont use their sponsored gear.
G9x/G1 is still the most used mouse at the top in sc2.
Quakelive there is still alot that use WMOs, and abysseus is not a bad mouse, so i really doubt they mind using that.

So there is still alot that give **** all about sponsors









Mouse in sc2 is no were near the same impact as in FPS however, as long as its small and have the dpi they need they dont really give a **** about acceleration from sensor and whatnot because its not noticable for most progamers in sc2 scene.

Same goes for cs teams sponsored by ss, most use kinzus when Kana tracks better.
And some use Sensei with acceleration when they could just use Kana whithout that.

And they are not really FORCED to swap gear, but since its what you should do for the team and to help your sponsor most do it, not everyone however.


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## nyshak

Guys. Do we have to get a mod in here to bring this back to topic?

Professional gamers and them being forced to use sponsored hardware has what to do with bsts upcoming gaming mouse?

OK. Thanks and feel free to open up a thread about this. Its interesting but does not belong here.


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## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Guys. Do we have to get a mod in here to bring this back to topic?
> Professional gamers and them being forced to use sponsored hardware has what to do with bsts upcoming gaming mouse?
> OK. Thanks and feel free to open up a thread about this. Its interesting but does not belong here.


You are right, and I will help you bring the topic back on track









OK, so shipment date is "July" last I heard on the esreality. Has anyone read any feedback from the beta testers yet?

I'm drooling all over the no side button mouse.


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## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> And some use Sensei with acceleration when they could just use Kana whithout that.


NaVi just switched from Xai/Sensei/IMO 1.1 to Kana.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> And they are not really FORCED to swap gear, but since its what you should do for the team and to help your sponsor most do it, not everyone however.


Top teams are forced to use sponsor's gear, it's in their contracts. A lot of money involved.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> NaVi just switched from Xai/Sensei/IMO 1.1 to Kana.
> Top teams are forced to use sponsor's gear, it's in their contracts. A lot of money involved.


And how come some Quake live pros use other gear?
And how come SC2 progamers use other gear.
Just example Prime sponsored by TT esports, not using their gear at all.
IM sponsored by Steelseries, not using their gear at all.
And so on.

**** Trace using Explorer 3.0, blasphemy:
http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/4749-full/1333794360.03.jpeg

I can find those from all top players in most games, but you get my drift, there are progamers from all topteams in all games that simply dont give a flying ****.

And no trace did not get canned from using his explorer which he used for years before some idiot tries to say thats the reason.

The point is that even if it states in the contract and the team website list their gear everyone knows that not all use it.


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## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> OK, so shipment date is "July" last I heard on the esreality. Has anyone read any feedback from the beta testers yet?


I think it's not a problem for bst when I say here that we didn't get the samples yet.


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## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> And how come some Quake live pros use other gear?
> And how come SC2 progamers use other gear.


I am talking about CS 1.6. I don't know about SC2 and Quake scene so i can't argue there.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I can find those from all top players in most games, but you get my drift, there are progamers from all topteams in all games that simply dont give a flying ****.
> And no trace did not get canned from using his explorer which he used for years before some idiot tries to say thats the reason.


Trace used a Xai in his short period with SK Gaming. He switched back to IME 3.0 for obvious reasons. They definitely have some stipulations in their contracts, like 3 or 4 players must use Steelseries gear. Or maybe him using a SS keyboard, mousepad and headset was enough. I remember starix used IMO 1.1 with a Steelseries sticker for several tournaments before switching to Kana. Maybe TT esports doesn't pay the money Steelseries does, so they can't force you to actually use their gear. There are lots of things you have to consider, it's not that simple.
And word of advice: chill and use your brain before calling ppl idiots.


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## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*
> 
> I think it's not a problem for bst when I say here that we didn't get the samples yet.


thank you for that info!









Edit: the beta samples?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> I am talking about CS 1.6. I don't know about SC2 and Quake scene so i can't argue there.
> Trace used a Xai in his short period with SK Gaming. He switched back to IME 3.0 for obvious reasons. They definitely have some stipulations in their contracts, like 3 or 4 players must use Steelseries gear. Or maybe him using a SS keyboard, mousepad and headset was enough. I remember starix used IMO 1.1 with a Steelseries sticker for several tournaments before switching to Kana. Maybe TT esports doesn't pay the money Steelseries does, so they can't force you to actually use their gear. There are lots of things you have to consider, it's not that simple.
> And word of advice: chill and use your brain before calling ppl idiots.


I don't mind them forcing players to use gear, but forcing a mouse on a professional player is like asking a soldier to swap his trusty ole rifle that he has relied on for years with a potential turd that jams all the time.


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I don't mind them forcing players to use gear, but forcing a mouse on a professional player is like asking a soldier to swap his trusty ole rifle that he has relied on for years with a potential turd that jams all the time.


To be fair they don't force a specific mouse and Steelseries has several average mice that you can adapt to. They have ambidextrous, ergonomic, optical, laser etc. It's not like Navi and SK didn't win several tournaments with Xai and Kinzu. If they pay hundreds of dollars every month (maybe more), then i'll say it's a pretty good deal. After all the gaming scene needs these kind of deals in order to become competitive.


----------



## Erio

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> I am talking about CS 1.6. I don't know about SC2 and Quake scene so i can't argue there.
> Trace used a Xai in his short period with SK Gaming. He switched back to IME 3.0 for obvious reasons. They definitely have some stipulations in their contracts, like 3 or 4 players must use Steelseries gear. Or maybe him using a SS keyboard, mousepad and headset was enough. I remember starix used IMO 1.1 with a Steelseries sticker for several tournaments before switching to Kana. Maybe TT esports doesn't pay the money Steelseries does, so they can't force you to actually use their gear. There are lots of things you have to consider, it's not that simple.
> And word of advice: chill and use your brain before calling ppl idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mind them forcing players to use gear, but forcing a mouse on a professional player is like asking a soldier to swap his trusty ole rifle that he has relied on for years with a potential turd that jams all the time.
Click to expand...

To be honest they don't care much about the mouse (SC pros), they can win just about with any setup.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erio*
> 
> To be honest they don't care much about the mouse (SC pros), they can win just about with any setup.


Thats the exact correct answer. Most of the Sc2 pros at least are creatures of habit. I don't think a person in the entire world will argue that a Qsenn DT-35 membrane keyboard is better than the vast sea of superb mechanical keyboards on the market today, yet lots of the best progamers in the sc scene use it, simply because its what they have been playing on since Sc1 for years and years. Same with the G1 mouse etc.

Anyways, we are trying to bring this topic back on track, so lets do that.
interesting to hear that the beta testers have not received anything yet. If the mouse is to be released in June I'd say it would be high time to get those samples out assuming there will be minor corrections that beta testers will comment on and like to have fixed. I have also not heard much about the development of firmware /software for this mouse, as that is really where the magic of taming the sensor happens. All that should be resolved before the mouse is released. I say should as in that would be the responsible ethical thing to do, but who knows what will actually happen.

Oh well, I hope this sorts it self out. Else we could all always petition logitech to make a new G1 shelled mouse with a g400 sensor in it... It's really hilariously tragic that logitech hasn't done this yet. They need to fire some one for the way their mice have gone down the ****ter.


----------



## end0rphine

Well I genuinely hope he succeeds. If he does, he may port the sensor into some of the other shells like the IO 1.1 or WMO. I'm also interested in his first design prototype mouse he posted awhile back - looked similar to a WMO but with smoother edges.


----------



## Erio

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> And they are not really FORCED to swap gear, but since its what you should do for the team and to help your sponsor most do it, not everyone however.
> 
> 
> 
> Top teams are forced to use sponsor's gear, it's in their contracts. A lot of money involved.
Click to expand...

Maybe you are talking about other game but in SC2 no sponsor force the team to use their gear. That said many player want to support the sponsor and use the sponsor's item. This is confirm by a pro sc2 player.

Edit: They actually do. They need to wear the cloth they their sponsor/team give them, but that doesn't really count.


----------



## therealgillz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erio*
> 
> Maybe you are talking about other game but in SC2 no sponsor force the team to use their gear. That said many player want to support the sponsor and use the sponsor's item. This is confirm by a pro sc2 player.
> Edit: They actually do. They need to wear the cloth they their sponsor/team give them, but that doesn't really count.


I hate to keep this off-topic, but that's not true. Teams like EG, SK, etc, most divisions are required to use that sponsors gear (Steelseries/Razer). There are SOMETIMES an exception, but for the most part, yes they're forced. It's in their contract. Trust me, no pros would be using the gear they use if they had a choice.


----------



## samwiches

Hmm I went from an MX300 to a G9. This mouse is supposed to be for me?


----------



## therealgillz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *samwiches*
> 
> Hmm I went from an MX300 to a G9. This mouse is supposed to be for me?


From my understanding the shape will be very "mx300" like.


----------



## nyshak

Open up a new topic for this discussion please.

BTT!


----------



## samwiches

It seems relevant to me that we might see a modern MX300 shaped mouse sometime.


----------



## nyshak

Dunno if this has been caught by most people yet:

bsts mouse will feature 2 side-buttons on the left side *only*. So this is an ambidextrous-shaped-right-handed-mouse atm.

Even better for me but lefties must wait for and if he does a truly ambidextrous variant. I think he's planning one without any sidebuttons.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Dunno if this has been caught by most people yet:
> bsts mouse will feature 2 side-buttons on the left side *only*. So this is an ambidextrous-shaped-right-handed-mouse atm.
> Even better for me but lefties must wait for and if he does a truly ambidextrous variant. I think he's planning one without any sidebuttons.


Thats the best part for me aswell.
I hate right side buttons on all ambi mice, and this is like the good old Logitech G3, left sidebuttons only!


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> I am talking about CS 1.6. I don't know about SC2 and Quake scene so i can't argue there.
> Trace used a Xai in his short period with SK Gaming. He switched back to IME 3.0 for obvious reasons. They definitely have some stipulations in their contracts, like 3 or 4 players must use Steelseries gear. Or maybe him using a SS keyboard, mousepad and headset was enough. I remember starix used IMO 1.1 with a Steelseries sticker for several tournaments before switching to Kana. Maybe TT esports doesn't pay the money Steelseries does, so they can't force you to actually use their gear. There are lots of things you have to consider, it's not that simple.
> And word of advice: chill and use your brain before calling ppl idiots.


Yeah I never called anyone Idiot, so your comment about me using my brain is more stupid.
That was reserved for if people would say he got kicked for not using a ss mouse (I know they are out there)

And people say that EG, SK etc forces people to use their gear, and thats a lie.

I check more then 1 game, the organization does not change just because it moves from Game A to Game B.

Take EG.Huk for example, one of biggest fan favorites in the world, he is on almost all big tournaments.
The EG brand shows everywhere.

Yet he uses Q-senn keyboard, Razer Abyssus mouse and razer Scarab mousemat, and earbuds.
Not a single SS product when EG's mainsponsor is Steelseries.

And SC2 got way more viewers on events then CS1.6 have today, so the teams should be even harder on their SC2 players.


----------



## Huff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Was last event I saw huk play in and gsl, havent watched winter arena. Pay per view junk, dh all the way.
> Yepp saw that now that he swapped to 6gv2 and 9hd.
> Which i wondered why he did not before.
> Since qsenn is quite crap tbh, but sc players refuse to move from it generally
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And scarab is just like 9hd.
> But he did use Q-senn for a long time when he was in EG.
> Still abyssus though.
> To be fair the only important piece of hardware is the mouse.
> Keyboard, headphones, mousepad is the same crap brand to brand.
> Mice however is not.


That's not a Steelseries keyboard, it's a nKeyboard SkyDigital Mechanic. The SkyDigital symbol is above the arrow keys (hard to see from that pic) and the back of his keyboard has a notch in the middle, the 6gv2 does not have this.


----------



## Limniscate

EG.DeMuslim uses a Zowie keyboard even though he's sponsored by SS.


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Yeah I never called anyone Idiot, so your comment about me using my brain is more stupid.


I meant use your brain and realise there are more things to consider than just the mouse. Maybe some of them are using other SS gear and they get away with not using an SS mouse. Maybe i should write in your native language so you can understand? Seems to me it's all black and white to you.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> That was reserved for if people would say he got kicked for not using a ss mouse (I know they are out there)
> And people say that EG, SK etc forces people to use their gear, and thats a lie.
> I check more then 1 game, the organization does not change just because it moves from Game A to Game B bla bla bla


Every CS 1.6 progamer used a different mouse before his clan was sponsored by Steelseries. The ones that are not, don't use an SS mouse. You think that's a coincidence? Or maybe they don't have money to buy SS mice. Seems to me you are the only one here that doesn't get that.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Well the beta test forum is private, just to keep it tidy. But the beta testers are free to talk about it on here or wherever they like. They don't have the mice yet, since the 3090 version was a last minute decision (they will get both versions together), so when they have the mice I am sure you will hear about them


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Well the beta test forum is private, just to keep it tidy. But the beta testers are free to talk about it on here or wherever they like. They don't have the mice yet, since the 3090 version was a last minute decision (they will get both versions together), so when they have the mice I am sure you will hear about them
Click to expand...

very cool. Can't wait to hear some feedback on this.


----------



## resis

From what I read there will be two versions of this mouse, one with the Avagao 3050 sensor and another with the 3090 sensor? Or was it just for the beta testers to see what's best?

Regarding the 3090 bst replied:
Quote:


> 4000 dpi is a native setting on the 3090 sensor since a few months ago since Avago updated the SROM, the native DPI steps are now:
> 800/1600/3200/4000
> (they used to be 1850 / 3500 or something like that)
> But if you use the software you can choose in steps of 50, so eg you can have 400 if you like.


Can the mice pro's elucidate what that means? Is it the new SROM update that allows 50dpi steps? Is 4000dpi max, or can it be stepped up?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> From what I read there will be two versions of this mouse, one with the Avagao 3050 sensor and another with the 3090 sensor? Or was it just for the beta testers to see what's best?
> Regarding the 3090 bst replied:
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 4000 dpi is a native setting on the 3090 sensor since a few months ago since Avago updated the SROM, the native DPI steps are now:
> 800/1600/3200/4000
> (they used to be 1850 / 3500 or something like that)
> But if you use the software you can choose in steps of 50, so eg you can have 400 if you like.
> 
> 
> 
> Can the mice pro's elucidate what that means? Is it the new SROM update that allows 50dpi steps? Is 4000dpi max, or can it be stepped up?
Click to expand...

Those are just the native DPI as he states. His driver software does interpolation to get 50 step customization. 4000 dpi is the new max native because of... srom update. He can get higher than 4000 if he wants, but it will be interpolated.


----------



## resis

Wonder if it will affect performance?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Wonder if it will affect performance?


Might







But I think the good thing is the native steps use the normal or conventional DPI alot of people are used to


----------



## detto87

Hm, no 400-500 DPI step? That's a bummer.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Hm, no 400-500 DPI step? That's a bummer.


There sorta will be with driver DPI customization. This really shouldn't be different from what other companies using the 3090 sensor are doing to offer 400-450 DPI.


----------



## detto87

Really? So there is no downside in performance/accuracy when using around 400 CPI on it?

But, eh, I figured: it has a CPI toggle button, so using like native 800 in games would be fine and the maybe-not-so-accurate-400-interpolated-setting on the desktop is just fine.

So: still the most interesting mouse to look for


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> There sorta will be with driver DPI customization. This really shouldn't be different from what other companies using the 3090 sensor are doing to offer 400-450 DPI.


From what i understood with the new SROM you can choose between 3200 and 400 DPI, which means the 400 DPI step won't be interpolated. This is the case with Savu: 400, 800, 1600 and 4000 DPI. I'm really looking forward to this mouse, but i still think Roccat can mess things up.


----------



## Skylit

Roccat's using pretty good hardware for this mouse. (from what I've seen)


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> From what i understood with the new SROM you can choose between 3200 and 400 DPI, which means the 400 DPI step won't be interpolated.


Kind of, you can set it to 800/1600/3200/4000 CPI but it runs with ~400 CPI when you load the SROM.


----------



## dipanzan

Did anyone sign the beta here? I'm really looking forward to this mouse, might just be the trick. It's the same sensor as on the G400, right? If so I'm really excited!


----------



## Bullveyr

Ramla777, Skylit, Derp, Haiiyaa and me.


----------



## dipanzan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*
> 
> Ramla777, Skylit, Derp, Haiiyaa and me.


Awesome!







You guys are considered as Gods here, hoping for the best. Thank you for helping out with the feedback.









If's not a problem, can I ask a question? Will there by any shape changes as from the original bst design, and the weight? Thanks again.


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> ..., but i still think Roccat can mess things up.


Truth hurts.

I think the most controversal thing about the Savu is the coating of the left and right side. It resembles the G700, M60 and to a lesser degree the X-760H.
You either love or hate it.


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skar*
> 
> Truth hurts.
> 
> I think the most controversal thing about the Savu is the coating of the left and right side. It resembles the G700, M60 and to a lesser degree the X-760H.
> You either love or hate it.


Pfff ... the market is full with crappy mice to let a small thing like coating ruin a mouse for me. I prefer glossy paint, so i can either paint it myself or use some insulation tape on top and sides. The shape is not perfect either, but one thing at a time


----------



## Nivity

Well If you cant lift the damn mouse the coating is a pretty big deal.

I could never lift the DA BE, it was just impossible because the weird rubber on the side made the mouse more slippy then oil.

So no matter how good a mouse is, If I cant control it or lift it well that kinda makes the mouse 100% useless


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well If you cant lift the damn mouse the coating is a pretty big deal.
> I could never lift the DA BE, it was just impossible because the weird rubber on the side made the mouse more slippy then oil.
> So no matter how good a mouse is, If I cant control it or lift it well that kinda makes the mouse 100% useless


The deathadder is a great deal bigger and more awkwardly shaped than this mouse. I doubt coating will make a big difference when the size is what it is.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> The deathadder is a great deal bigger and more awkwardly shaped than this mouse. I doubt coating will make a big difference when the size is what it is.


I know.
Just pointed out that coating can ruin a mouse 100%








Like zowie EC evo and DA BE.


----------



## CorruptBE

It's a preference thing, I had the same problem with the NORMAL DA and the BE was fine for me


----------



## Genub

sorry to get offtopic but is the 3.0's side coating close to evos coating or no?


----------



## bst

Hi everyone, sorry I didn't see this thread until now, I was keeping everything in one place at ESR, so that no one got confused over where to look for new info, and when I checked here in the past there wasn't anyone talking about it here, so I didn't look for a while.

I read through the thread, skipping some of the OT stuff, and thought I'd answer some questions:

1) The mouse shell doesn't come from the same factory as the Valor as far as I know. I've never seen that shape in their line up (and I've seen all their OEM shapes now). I have seen factories which make the Valor mouse, but I wasn't looking for that shape of mouse (especially since Puretrak already uses it).

2) The 3050 version is nice, its not really a high DPI mouse, its main thing is very high tracking speed (I am aware there are mice out there that use the 3050 sensor that don't have high tracking speed, but honesty it does on this mouse







). Its a bit cheaper than the 3090 sensor, so its good if you're a low sens player who doesn't need high DPI and want to save some money. The problem is I think its a bit too niche at the moment, and tbh you don't save a huge amount of money, thats why I started the 3090 version, which should be better suited for more types of gamer - high or low sens, RTS or FPS.

3) The beta testers will get both versions of the mice, 3050 and 3090 (although some beta testers are only getting the 3090 version because there will be more of those samples). So basically it depends how it goes. I think the 3090 will definitely be in the line up, but the 3050 might end up not being released at first. Its just simpler to use one sensor at first, and I think the 3090 is a good one to start with, the 3050 can be a more budget/niche version for later. Thats how I see it now anyway.

4) I've been using the mouse with the Huano side switches and scroll wheel button for a few months now, and so far theres been no quality issues I can report. They feel fine to me, and I use them a lot. It just comes down to a lack of choice really, given I have to work with an OEM shell - I wasn't too thrilled about Huano switches either, but I gave them a try, and they feel fine. I really wouldn't use them if I thought they were bad.

5) I know its got a bit of a strange look about it, with its stripes etc, but I think the pics don't do it justice, its not a bad looker once you have it in front of you (at least I think it looks nice). My favourite thing about the mouse is its shape rather than its looks, the best thing about it is I don't notice it when I'm using it in game, its a bit of a strange thing I've never really had before, thats what drew me to it over the other shapes I tested. Its never made my hand ache, and I use it all day every day (sad, aren't I!). I know it won't be like that for everyone, but anyone whos like me will forget about how it looks once they start to use it









I know its taking a long time to develop the mouse, and I could have released the 3050 version quite a while ago. However I don't want to rush it and get it wrong, and that applies to all aspects of the business. I hate mistakes due to poor planning and rushing. I just want quality and honesty in all areas. Its hard to do it as a new small business, but I am trying my hardest.

The good thing is that although its taking time right now, once this mouse is finished, its not such a huge deal to put the same sensor setup into other shapes. During all this time I have found some really nice ones (I never stop looking), so I really hope this first mouse does well, then I'll be able to do that.


----------



## end0rphine

The man himself.

Looking forward to June. Or July..


----------



## Nivity

Good to hear from you bst here aswell.

I think you made the right choice not to rush anything, its just stupid to rush and release a half asses product.
Better make it as good as possible before releasing it, even If im dying to get my hands on one when you release them









Also think its a really good call to release with 3090 sensor to fit more people and just not a small group.

Looking forward to this mouse alot, been looking for a new mouse even since the Logitech G3 era. And honesly if the g3 had a better sensor I would just use it nowdays aswell since the shell with sidebutton is perfect, just wished for a better sensor and 1 extra sidebutton on left side.

BST mouse of doom might finally be something I can be happy with and not have 2-4 mice connected to my computer all the time.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Good to hear from you bst here aswell.
> I think you made the right choice not to rush anything, its just stupid to rush and release a half asses product.
> Better make it as good as possible before releasing it, even If im dying to get my hands on one when you release them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also think its a really good call to release with 3090 sensor to fit more people and just not a small group.
> Looking forward to this mouse alot, been looking for a new mouse even since the Logitech G3 era. And honesly if the g3 had a better sensor I would just use it nowdays aswell since the shell with sidebutton is perfect, just wished for a better sensor and 1 extra sidebutton on left side.
> BST mouse of doom might finally be something I can be happy with and not have 2-4 mice connected to my computer all the time.


All of this! I love the g3 shape more than any other mouse I've ever used too, but the sensor was just unacceptably poor. Can't wait to get the bst mouse and test it out.


----------



## resis

Thanks for the headsup bst.

I use the Zowie AM now and also do not notice or feel it when using. I think that makes a good mouse, if it is like an extension of your hand, rather than a tool in your hand. What got me interested in your mouse is the G3 like rear of the mouse shell. I used a logitech mouse at work which had a similar rear and I absolutely loved it, much better than the WMO like rear of the AM.
Another thing is the lower profile. I used the Zowie EC for a bit and it felt too high, while the lower proile of the AM is just right. Another thing your mouse got covered.
The sensor of course. After using the low sense, low LOD, no acceleration, no prediction, super precise sensor of the AM, I cannot go back anymore.
The separate buttons (not part of the top shell) is probably a good thing.
Non rubber, but also non glossy sides might be a good thing.
Also I love wheels with a glowing rim. I don't like if the entire wheel glows.

Does it mean you are ditching the omrons? Or do you mean that you have huano's for side buttons and wheel and omrons for the main buttons? However you decide, I only hope the click will be light enough, but not too light and mushy and will have a short travel and a quick actuation. I actually like the highly criticised switches of the AM, fast and sharp click, unfortunately they are really a tad bit to stiff.

Keep us posted.


----------



## ZareliMan

What I like the most about this mouse is the Copperhead like shape they did choose.
Looks promising for sure.


----------



## Genub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Thanks for the headsup bst.
> I use the Zowie AM now and also do not notice or feel it when using. I think that makes a good mouse, if it is like an extension of your hand, rather than a tool in your hand. What got me interested in your mouse is the G3 like rear of the mouse shell. I used a logitech mouse at work which had a similar rear and I absolutely loved it, much better than the WMO like rear of the AM.
> Another thing is the lower profile. I used the Zowie EC for a bit and it felt too high, while the lower proile of the AM is just right. Another thing your mouse got covered.
> The sensor of course. After using the low sense, low LOD, no acceleration, no prediction, super precise sensor of the AM, I cannot go back anymore.
> The separate buttons (not part of the top shell) is probably a good thing.
> Non rubber, but also non glossy sides might be a good thing.
> Also I love wheels with a glowing rim. I don't like if the entire wheel glows.
> Does it mean you are ditching the omrons? Or do you mean that you have huano's for side buttons and wheel and omrons for the main buttons? However you decide, I only hope the click will be light enough, but not too light and mushy and will have a short travel and a quick actuation. I actually like the highly criticised switches of the AM, fast and sharp click, unfortunately they are really a tad bit to stiff.
> Keep us posted.


from what i read the haunos are only the side buttons and the omrons are still the main buttons


----------



## bst

Yeah, the main buttons are Omron (D2FC-F-7N(10M) atm), only the side buttons, dpi button, and scroll wheel are Huano.
I did try and do all Omron, but the switches on the side need to be right angled, and the scroll wheel needs extended pins, so it really ramped up the price, because I had to use D2F-01F, thats why I originally said its not worth it. The factory can't get a good price on the D2F-01F, it costs about 4x the price of D2FC-F-7N.

I still might offer a pre-order with the D2F-01F for all switches (except scroll wheel and dpi button) on the website when it goes live, and let people vote with their wallet. But it will be a fair bit more expensive and may take a little longer to produce.


----------



## resis

Omron for M1/M2 and huano for the rest is fine. The omron side button pre-order thing sounds nice, but it really depends on how expensive it will be and waiting longer is already hard enough now.


----------



## whybother

The only thing missing from this mouse is a moveable sensor position. For high sensitivity users having it further forward is usually preferred.


----------



## detto87

Ok that's slowly going to be the WASDkeyboards' way in the mice segment.









"Design your own mouse, we build it for you."

I have an idea ...


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whybother*
> 
> The only thing missing from this mouse is a moveable sensor position. For high sensitivity users having it further forward is usually preferred.


That's not technically doable if you also want the sensor to be perfectly still when you move your mouse, and keep costs down.

Sure, you can get a system where the whole PCB would move with the sensor as you slide the lower plate in the place you like, but a mouse with that system would cost far a lot more and would be much heavier.

I have a couple of ideas on how this could be done, but I'm quite confident none would find their way into a sub-50€ mouse.


----------



## eosgreen

when is this badboy (or girl) out


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eosgreen*
> 
> when is this badboy (or girl) out


This is mentioned several times in this thread. There is no definite date, but estimates are june/july.


----------



## nyshak

Looks like he's going for the 3090 now. This will delay the mouse a bit more I think.


----------



## Nivity

Yepp.

Although he have both mice sent to some testers.
Dont mind waiting for something good, sucks to buy something crap like I done with oh so many mice ;>


----------



## samwiches

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *eosgreen*
> 
> when is this badboy (or girl) out
> 
> 
> 
> This is mentioned several times in this thread. There is no definite date, but estimates are june/july.
Click to expand...

Me, I've been waiting 12 years for the perfect mouse. I don't care when this comes out.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *samwiches*
> 
> Me, I've been waiting 12 years for the perfect mouse. I don't care when this comes out.


I check the thread on ESreality almost daily.

Perfect sensor with sub 100g weight in a G3-ish shape with good switches. Doesn't sound like too much to ask, but apparently it was. I'll wait patiently until june, and I'll stick to my Zowie AM now, which minus the lack of software is nearly perfect for me.


----------



## Skar

I would not be surprised if there will be some unexpected delays, as june would basically mean the units are already on the way to be shipped and I think bst would probably mention it.


----------



## samwiches

To be honest, I'm not sure what's going on here. One person is building prototypes?

Then what? Does he own a factory in Hong Kong?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *samwiches*
> 
> To be honest, I'm not sure what's going on here. One person is building prototypes?
> Then what? Does he own a factory in Hong Kong?


He has a brand, which he wants to populate with mice that esreality wants. He is contracting out a factory to produce these mice.


----------



## samwiches

ESR wants to do what?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *samwiches*
> 
> ESR wants to do what?


Nothing.

BST is asking them for their collective opinion.


----------



## samwiches

Oh, the users want to buy the mouse. I thought you were saying ESR wanted in on the production/distribution.









So this is basically a boutique hardware project?


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

seems like it. hopefully quality will be above par, comparing to similar brand names (Razer, Mionix, Roccat...). And please don't post how your razer mouse works perfectly for more than two years, 9/10 brake in the first 12 months. My abyssus lived a short glitchy life of just two months


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *obi.van.kenobi*
> 
> seems like it. hopefully quality will be above par, comparing to similar brand names (Razer, Mionix, Roccat...). And please don't post how your razer mouse works perfectly for more than two years, 9/10 brake in the first 12 months. My abyssus lived a short glitchy life of just two months


All the razer equipment I've bought over the years; 4 mice, 1 headset all function flawlessly to this day. Every single steelseries product I bought (except mouse pads) had some problems. That doesn't mean I'm blowing steelseries off thinking all their stuff will suck in the future.
Some products are faulty and others are not. Luck of the draw.


----------



## samwiches

I know developers/engineers hate this question, but is there a target price for this mouse?


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *samwiches*
> 
> I know developers/engineers hate this question, but is there a target price for this mouse?


In the ESReality thread bst commented that it would be around £20


----------



## nyshak

Will be more expensive I think. The old price was based on the 3050.


----------



## bst

Yeah thats a really old price, it was from a completely different mouse, this one is going to be more like £30-£35.


----------



## samwiches

Sounds like a safe buy. Will it be available in the U.S.?


----------



## Scorpion667

I'll buy it =)

Looks nice for fingertip grip, amazing sensor also.


----------



## nyshak

Comparison pics with mx300

http://erasem.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=2


----------



## Cek

i really hope its not another fail like puretrak valor...


----------



## nyshak

Me too. But there is hope. For one it's not done by Puretrak.


----------



## end0rphine

There shouldn't be much trickery since he's doing beta testing with open reports.


----------



## nyshak

Thats why I am already planning to get one :]

MX300 with side buttons for right-handed people only. If someone told me Razer/SS or whoever was going to do a mouse like this I wouldn't believe it. But this aint a big company hehe.


----------



## Nivity

afaik Skylit and derp are 2 of the testers.

So im sure we will get good reports on how the mouse performs.


----------



## Rjven

Did bst die?
I knew it was very unlikely for this mouse to be released in June, but damn, it's been like 15/20 days without any news








Did the beta testers receive their mice?


----------



## Riou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rjven*
> 
> Did bst die?
> I knew it was very unlikely for this mouse to be released in June, but damn, it's been like 15/20 days without any news
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did the beta testers receive their mice?


You should look at the main thread over at ESReality for more information. However, bst has not said much over there either. I wonder if the sensor change to 3090 is working as planned.


----------



## Ramla777

I think he died.. Nothing from him in the beta forums either.


----------



## Thunderbringer

I guess he cant stop playing games since the mouse feels too awesome.







Cant wait to try it myself!


----------



## woll3

Maybe its so good, that he wants to keep it for himself.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Maybe its so good, that he wants to keep it for himself.


That direction would not fit into the whole bst picture, atleast not in mine







. Who knows. all speculation until confirmation. like his death. B-:


----------



## Rjven

@Riou
Yeah, I check the ESR thread almost daily actually! But there's no news there since a long time.

@Ramla
Aww







He's not actually dead though, he last login'd on ESR yesterday lol (Yes that's how stalkative I am)
Hope the news are not too bad about the mouse...


----------



## viowastaken

Hrm... I don't mean to jump ship but at this point I'm thinking that I'll get the Razer Taipan or CM Storm recon instead anyways.


----------



## end0rphine

I wonder if testers already got beta samples..


----------



## nex83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rjven*
> 
> He's not actually dead though, he last login'd on ESR yesterday lol (Yes that's how stalkative I am)


Nice to see I'm not the only one who does that.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rjven*
> 
> @Riou
> @Ramla
> Aww
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's not actually dead though, he last login'd on ESR yesterday lol (Yes that's how stalkative I am)
> Hope the news are not too bad about the mouse...


Before that he didn't log in in both forums for 2-3 weeks.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> I wonder if testers already got beta samples..


no


----------



## viowastaken

IMO when customers are more excited to find information about a product than the producer/seller is about sharing that info... It's never good


----------



## bst

Sorry guys, I know I've been really quiet, but I have been really busy with this in the past 3 weeks or so, thats why I'm not replying much. For example on ESR, if I start to reply a lot, the thread gets a lot more active and I then have to answer a lot of posts daily, which is fine but it takes time. So since it kind of died down a bit naturally, I thought thats ok, since I've got lots to do. Hope that makes sense and doesn't come across badly or anything! I also had some RL stuff happening recently which I couldn't avoid, nothing bad or anything, just out of politeness some things I couldn't get out of.

Right now the PCB and sensor for the 3090 version is ready, its all done, they're just doing final bits, so its really not long now until the beta testers get their samples (it can't be delayed by hard to predict 'development' now). Its going to be about 2 weeks because they still have to come from china, then they have to be sent out to the beta testers.

Viowastaken, I see you are a bit pessimistic over some of the things in this project, so I want to try to assure you and others, that a lot of what you think is simply not true









The 3050 version was developed really well, I've been using it since I got it, pretty much all day every day, and it still feels exactly the same as new. If its used at 500DPI its pretty much perfection in all areas IMO. As you go higher in DPI the tracking quality lowers slightly, but not by a huge amount (a lot better than other 3050 mice I have tried), also it has such a high tracking speed I can't find the limit, I gave up at around 200IPS (starts to get dangrous lol).

My factory could have been lazy and made something really average, but they didn't. they put the extra effort in to get the best from it. So in a way, although waiting for the 3090 has annoyed me a bit, I'm not worried about it, I know they're trying hard like they did with the 3050.

To say I'm not excited about it is really wrong, although I am probably more used to the whole thing, since I've had the 3050 version for some time now, and really its almost perfect for me since I only use 1000dpi, so as a gamer the 3090 version doesn't really benefit me. But that doesn't mean I'm not excited as the 'designer/researcher', to see how the 3090 performs, and I can't wait to see what the beta testers think of the mice (its a bit scary for me too, hehe)


----------



## avinin1

Bst, thanks you for updating us.

The things you said about the ADNS-3050 are very true - the 3050 wasn't really meant to use in the higher dpis but 'lowers', as you said, you can feel it by simply test it out.

I was wondered how low the LoD is in both versions? I know the 3090 is problematic in this case but How low did you manage it to be on like a QcK (popular choice)?

Also, imho, you need to focus also on the feel of the mouse, I know you focused about the performances and the type of the metrials that in the mouse, but what about the overall feeling of the plastic and rubber coating?


----------



## SectorNine50

You know you've had enough of this term of computer science classes when you read the title of this thread and your first thought is of a binary search tree...

:::Sigh:::


----------



## Cek

pls bst buoild mouse with omron yellow cap switches and not huano pls


----------



## yffaT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cek*
> 
> pls bst buoild mouse with omron yellow cap switches and not huano pls


My wish as well, omron ftw!


----------



## avinin1

thats subjective, omroms can be a hell of easy double clicks with the "wrong" shell.


----------



## bst

Well I should say that I do really like these Huano switches, they are softer and quieter than other Huanos I have used, so I am leaving them on for the beta test, because I think they deserve a chance. Also for the main buttons Omron D2FC-7-7N(10M) is being tried.

The reason why is because the only other high quality alternative is Omron D2F-01F in the main buttons and the side buttons, which brings the price up a lot, but in my opinion, its just bad value which inevitably gets passed onto everyone who buys it. They are 3x the price of D2FC(10M) but not 3x different, so its like paying for nothing.

The factory deals with Huano as mid range and Omron as their higher end switch supplier (they also have some cheaper ones which I don't use). I learnt it works a lot better to use the suppliers that the factory uses for the best quality control and value, so the switches have to be made by one of those two (for now, anyway).

I can get any Omron switches but they have to be the right type. The side buttons and scroll wheel button all use different pin types (extended pins, and right angle pins). So far I haven't found anything except the D2F right angle version for the side buttons though


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1*
> 
> Bst, thanks you for updating us.
> The things you said about the ADNS-3050 are very true - the 3050 wasn't really meant to use in the higher dpis but 'lowers', as you said, you can feel it by simply test it out.
> I was wondered how low the LoD is in both versions? I know the 3090 is problematic in this case but How low did you manage it to be on like a QcK (popular choice)?
> Also, imho, you need to focus also on the feel of the mouse, I know you focused about the performances and the type of the metrials that in the mouse, but what about the overall feeling of the plastic and rubber coating?


The LOD for the 3050 version on a qck is about 2.1-2.2mm, it hardly moves at all at 2mm, and by 2.2mm its stopped completely. I did try the tape trick to lower it further and it can go down to about 1mm without any noticable problems. However I personally use it without the tape.

I don't have the LOD of the 3090 yet, should have it soon though.

The rubber coating has got a nice soft feeling to it, its kind of grippy too, its the same as on other gaming mice. To me it gives a more consistent and comfortable feel, I really like it. The sides are grainy plastic like on a WMO. It feels about the same in grip as the rubber coating really, just without the really soft/smooth feeling. The shape of the mouse is really grippy anyway though, if I relax my hand on it I can still pick it up without having to hold it tighter.

Something I like that I never mentioned before, was even if I shake the mouse theres no rattles at all, don't know if anyone really cares about that, but for some reason I like it.. a lot of mice rattle and it always kind of annoyed me xD


----------



## Ihateallmice

all that's missing is rubberized sides


----------



## MikeRELI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cek*
> 
> pls bst buoild mouse with omron yellow cap switches and not huano pls


Yellow cap?


----------



## Genub

next versions of your mouse you should make a glossy top rubber sides kinda like a 3.0 or a Sensei Raw (glossy edition)


----------



## NuFon

Another manufacturer for side buttons and other micro switches is Kailh, for instance they made the side buttons on the kana.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MikeRELI*
> 
> Yellow cap?


Basically a cheaper 7N with lower life expectancy.


----------



## bst

Yeah the yellow cap one is D2FC-3M, 3M= rated to 3 million clicks. D2FC-F-7N is 5M and then theres the 10M version which is what is planned for the mouse atm.

I asked about Kailh a while back, my factory said they can't get the same quality as Huano in the same kind of switch, and also they aren't an existing customer (which can make things more difficult) so I left it there. I think the factory can get TTC, but iirc the Huanos are still better quality (1M vs 3M) for the same kind of switch.

From what I've seen, the Huanos and the Omron D2F are the best choices available for the side buttons at the moment.
Theres a lot more choice for the main buttons, but anything better than D2FC-F-7N(10M) bumps the price up a lot.

The D2FC-F-7N(10M) and the Huano side buttons combo is really good value, and I think they work really well together, so unless something unexpected happens, its probably going to stay that way for the main version. Although if theres demand for it, maybe there could be a limited edition with all Omron Japan switches if anyone really wants them, last time I looked the best ones I can put in the mouse are Omron "red dot" D2F-F37(S) for the main buttons, and Omron D2F-01F for the side buttons.


----------



## v4mp1

Btw i dont know why u say that the D2F-01F are expensive, i get 10 pieces here in germany for 1,99€.

I already bought 60 pieces of the D2F-01F for my next 30 mice xD


----------



## resis

Is it there yet, is it there yet?


----------



## popups

The rubber coating on the sides of the Razer DA black edition wore off in a few weeks. It wore off so fast I was shocked, The mouse looks old and abused even though it is new and well taken care of. As it started to wear off I found that the coating actually reduces grip compared to the plain plastic. So I just rubbed it off with my finger -- as I was having trouble griping it with the coating on. Now the mouse doesn't slip out of my hands, although it feels like without the coating my hand is a little hotter. If I was buying another Razer I would get the standard body over the black edition.

I rather have a textured plastic for the sides over rubber coatings or plan plastic. I don't know about the top. I had a Diamond Back Plasma -- when the coating started to wear off the flakes were messing up the scroll wheel.

The 3090s' CPI is high. maybe too high.. In BF3 I have to go into the config file to set my sensitivity. because I can't do it in the game menu. as the lowest setting is too high when I have the mouse at 1800 CPI.

Don't put a braided cable on the mouse, it is a bad idea. Braided cables fray your mouse pad. I had to tape my Razer's cable so it wouldn't ruin my Artisan mouse pad.

Also the the sensor in the Razer DA does not work on an Artisan Haybusa. It works side to side but not up and down. The sensor starts to jitter. The sensor is fine on an Artisan Shiden Kai and it appears the lift off is reduced slightly.

It would be nice if your mouses' body is wide enough in the back to fill the palm better to aid you when picking it up. For instance the Razer DA you can't grab it with your palm. you have to use your thumb and pinky. Because of that and the weight it is not a pleasure to use.

I'm not sure I like the side buttons shape on BST's mouse.

By the way, if you have any extra beta mice for testing. I wouldn't mind testing one.


----------



## Axaion

you know you can lower the dpi on th 3090 right?, i dont mind if its 19231772 dpi, as long as it works on the dpi i use properly (450)


----------



## end0rphine

The Artisan Hayabusa just wasn't designed properly. The sensor works on every single other surface, so why change for a crappy mousepad?


----------



## bst

Popups, the native settings for the 3090 using the new SROM are:
800 / 1600 / 3200 / 4000

Also there is a custom DPI setting which I am working on with the drivers, where you can choose in smaller increments like 50 DPI. Most drivers have a sensitivity option which is usually 1-10, which usually translates as 10%-100% of the active DPI, so if you have 1000 DPI and set it to 5, you get 500 DPI. So its just a more extensive version of that.

I think the problem with the rubber coatings is that some people's sweat is simply more acidic than others, hopefully the technology will improve to make it harder wearing one day. Personally I've never had it happen, so I'm not much good for testing it out. However for people who prefer it, I'm going to ask for a version which has glossy plastic instead of the rubber coating (because thats whats underneath the rubber coating anyway). I don't have the option to do grainy plastic for the top atm, but the sides are grainy plastic in both versions.

The cable is a really flexible rubber one.

Sorry, I don't have any mice left for beta testing.


----------



## bst

V4mp1, I had another look for D2F-01F (and D2F-01F-A which is needed for the side buttons), and eventually I found them for $0.10 each on Alibaba, but I'm a bit cautious because on every other site I've seen they are around $1 each, so when I see such a big price gap it makes me suspicious there could be something wrong with them. Where did you get your ones?


----------



## viowastaken

can i have one yet?


----------



## v4mp1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> V4mp1, I had another look for D2F-01F (and D2F-01F-A which is needed for the side buttons), and eventually I found them for $0.10 each on Alibaba, but I'm a bit cautious because on every other site I've seen they are around $1 each, so when I see such a big price gap it makes me suspicious there could be something wrong with them. Where did you get your ones?


Ebay









Check your PNs.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Popups, the native settings for the 3090 using the new SROM are:
> 800 / 1600 / 3200 / 4000


What speaks against 400/800/1600/4000 like the Savu has ?


----------



## DeMS

I agree with woll3, a mouse without a 400~500 CPI step has no use to many lowsensers.

Most games show artifacts with sensitivity < 1 or lowering pitch and yaw.
Using an interpolated method like a driver solution is non-optimal either.

Chances are a high sensitivity user doesn't have as many limitations when configuring sensitivity.


----------



## ComputerNut

Personally I prefer the Razer Naga Hex for my rig. I've also learned to play at extremely high DPI and choose to do so for faster reaction times. It takes a while to get the hang of, but I'm glad I switched to a higher DPI. From what I can tell, there just isn't enough buttons on BST's mouse for me.


----------



## Ihateallmice

If you need more than 2 buttons you are doing it wrong. Very wrong. Higher DPI for faster reaction times? GOOD NIGHT


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ihateallmice*
> 
> If you need more than 2 buttons you are doing it wrong. Very wrong. Higher DPI for faster reaction times? GOOD NIGHT


He might be playing MMO or RTS with macros, so the use of many buttons is completely justified (although I very much doubt he will get any advantage of having the buttons on the mouse instead of making keyboard macros, since when you're pushing a mouse button chances are you will move it, even if by little, so it can't be used to track what happens on-screen for a fraction of time, so it should be detrimental to the experience), but not really adviseable.

About faster reaction times, that's a very common misconception with people who likes to use high sensitivity thinking this gives them a huge advantage because they can move the mouse "faster". I'm usually playing with some teammates who are using very high sensitivity (one used sth like 5cm/360, another was down to 2cm/360) and they're not believing that I use 60cm/360 because I can move the mouse as fast as they do on fast swipes (even faster and more precise than they do).

However, let me get this straight :

Higher CPI won't get you magically better reaction time.

Higher CPI at most will make your in-game movement faster with less hand movement. And that's all. Mostly in cases of extreme screen resolution will high CPI be benefitial (there are other cases but they're more like exceptions).


----------



## ComputerNut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ihateallmice*
> 
> If you need more than 2 buttons you are doing it wrong. Very wrong. Higher DPI for faster reaction times? GOOD NIGHT


Let me rephrase...

The buttons on my mouse work wonders in MMO's and RTS's, however in games such as League of Legends and FPS games I don't marco much to the mouse at all.

Also I said reaction time, but thats not what I meant. Reaction time is a skill that is learned over time in most all things we do, including video games. Just because my DPI is higher, doesn't mean my reaction time is faster. My reaction time is still the same, however the distance my mouse has to move to respond to that reaction time is far less. Once I got used to that motion, I love it and to each thier own. It took time to get used to it and each game is different depending on the feel of the game. For example in CoD I have a much higher DPI then BF3. Why? Well I play CoD like a kid in a candy store! However in BF3 I like to snipe and find that the lower DPI makes for a much better day of sniping do to increased accuracy. Is it a nutty way to play? Heck Yes! But it works for me and I'm usually top dawg in all my matches.... but then again who isn't? =)


----------



## popups

I think the rubber wears off quickly because it is sprayed on slick plastic instead of a textured surface. So once a piece starts to wear it comes off easily just by rubbing it with your finger. It may not wear as bad with the textured sides.

The drivers sound nice, but I don't use them. I just leave the mouse at its "native" setting or use the drivers to set the mouse then uninstall them. I much prefer hardware switching, but I can live with setting and uninstalling. I don't see the point of switching CPI every time you sit down at your computer like some do.

If it is an ambidextrous mouse, some will say,"Why isn't there side buttons on the other side?"


----------



## nyshak

Look like the 3050 is for me. I don't need more than 1000 CPI for Windows...


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Look like the 3050 is for me. I don't need more than 1000 CPI for Windows...


I would like to know how it tracks on different colours, or only black/white/whatever..? In contrast the 3090 and its relationship with the black colour.


----------



## nahka

It is almost here!
http://www.esreality.com/post/2277500/re-new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2277451


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nahka*
> 
> It is almost here!
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2277500/re-new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2277451


Exciting. Anyone know what website he's talking about?


----------



## nahka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> Exciting. Anyone know what website he's talking about?


He will announce that later, but seems like he got some big company behind him.

Also some info that pre-ordering will be available *very* soon http://www.esreality.com/post/2277500/re-new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2274355


----------



## viowastaken

Awesome.

The taipan and CM storm recon will definitely become uninteresting if this thing gets released. I'll just buy five 3090 mice without sidebuttons and a rubber top and be set more or less for life.


----------



## aikYu

bst still hasn't got the beta 3090 mouse so i wouldn't expect the mouse sooner than october-november.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aikYu*
> 
> bst still hasn't got the beta 3090 mouse so i wouldn't expect the mouse sooner than october-november.


Apparently he's expecting the mouse in a few days, and he will sell it after beta testers have tried them for two weeks. I'm optimistically expecting alot sooner than oct/nov. Though, with 2000 DPI the 3050 will be more than fine for my use. I use 800 dpi @ 1080 resolution. Even if screen technology should evolve to twice the aspect rate of that, with game support to back it, I'd still be fine with a 3050 version.


----------



## nahka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> Awesome.
> The taipan and CM storm recon will definitely become uninteresting if this thing gets released. I'll just buy five 3090 mice without sidebuttons and a rubber top and be set more or less for life.


Looks like you have finally found perfect mouse







Btw, What mouse you are currently using?


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nahka*
> 
> Looks like you have finally found perfect mouse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, What mouse you are currently using?


Razer Abyssus. I have a jitter free one. Weight and size is pretty close to optimal for me, but the shape is a bit awkward. The logitech g100 is the most comfortable shape of a mouse I've ever used.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nahka*
> 
> Looks like you have finally found perfect mouse


People often find their perfect mouse in one that is unreleased


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> People often find their perfect mouse in one that is unreleased


Obviously "perfect" in this context is rather unobtainable in many ways, as I'm sure there will be moderate sensor upgrades some time in the future, or other minor improvements that technically constitute a "better" mouse.

however, with what is currently on the market, I really believe that it will be many peoples current holy grail as far as mice go!


----------



## popups

I'm willing to buy both sensors (3050 & 3090). I would probably get the non coated version and stipple the top if the plastic is thick enough.

BST should make sure to stock quality mouse feet.


----------



## v4mp1

bst do you have the 3090 beta mouse already? can u post a pic?


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> bst do you have the 3090 beta mouse already? can u post a pic?


If i've understood correctly the shape (shell) will be identical for both..


----------



## v4mp1

still the old design?


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> I really believe that it will be many peoples current holy grail as far as mice go!


Hopefully. But this view is common before the release of many mice, that's all I was saying.


----------



## v4mp1

http://www.esreality.com/post/2277500/re-new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2277451

I want version 5) without switches xD


----------



## SyahmiX

whats the difference in tracking quality between 3050 and 3090?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SyahmiX*
> 
> whats the difference in tracking quality between 3050 and 3090?


I think they are about the same -- they just have different CPI. Kind of like what Intel does with their processors.

I would get both because one will likely work better on a certain CPI than the other. So one would be for low sensitivity gaming (like a Counter Strike game) and the other for high (like Tribes: Ascend).

Anyone know if these mice will work on a Mac?


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I think they are about the same -- they just have different CPI. Kind of like what Intel does with their processors.
> I would get both because one will likely work better on a certain CPI than the other. So one would be for low sensitivity gaming (like a Counter Strike game) and the other for high (like Tribes: Ascend).
> Anyone know if these mice will work on a Mac?


What?

3050 is really good at 500CPI, but that's about it. It's a small, cheap sensor that gets things done, but at any other CPI setting it doesn't perform that good - jitter .

3090 can get up to 4000CPI but it might be jittery. However, most of the other steps should work flawlessly, with better tracking quality than 3050 and not that limited.

They will work on everything that is USB certified afaik (but driver functionality might not be available on all platforms).


----------



## Skylit

3050 is good up till around 1000 CPI on 125hz.

As a sensor scaling through multiple CPI and HZ settings, I would also say bout 500. Maybe somewhere in between if you wanna push it.

Low pixel processing power ftl


----------



## bst

I see the 3050 sensor as a really good value low-mid sens gaming sensor, it works really well in certain areas, but step outside of them and there are better sensors. So its a really focused sensor, rather than being really broad like the 9500. Basically it works really well in all areas, but tracking quality is best up to 1000dpi, so if you don't need any more DPI than that, then I doubt anyone would see any major differences when compared with the 9500 or 3090 sensors.

I don't really know if I will put the 3050 sensor into this shell atm, I'm thinking of only putting the 3090 in it. The reason why is because I think I can get a better value shell, which would match the ethos of the 3050 sensor better, and also it allows me to do the 4 different options on the 3090 version, without having too many different variations on the same shell.

popups, the mouse feet I have atm are good, but I am working on some new ones, can't say much about it atm because nothings final, but I think it'll be really nice if I can do it. The mouse will work on a mac, but if you want to change advanced settings then you have to plug it into a windows PC with the drivers, and make the changes there. Then you can plug it back into the mac and it should remember all the settings (I've tested it with another mouse from the same factory which uses exactly the same system).

V4mp1, I have a pic, but its in the prototype packaging which I don't want anyone to see ;D But it looks exactly the same anyway, it just has a logo on it now.

I will open the website for pre-orders when I know for sure what the price will be, I've assumed that after 2 weeks I should know if the beta testers want any big changes, and how it will affect the price, but its just a guess, it might take a little longer (I don't want to rush that stage and miss something). I promise I'll do it as soon as I can, but at first it will have a fairly rough ETA, because the final design will then go to be certified for CE/FCC/USB etc. Once thats coming to an end then I will be able to give an official release date. But if anyone has any ideas or suggestions they think would be good for the pre-order process, feel free to let me know.


----------



## blackmesatech

I don't have any suggestions on the pre-order process but I am curious about one thing. The shell is similar to that one i-rocks mouse will yours have a circle logo on it as well? Just asking because I loved the prototype photos and how clean it looked.

One other question would be on the glossy version ( if your still doing it ) will the left and right mouse buttons be glossy as well or rubber?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blackmesatech*
> 
> The shell is similar to that one i-rocks mouse will yours have a circle logo on it as well?


No, theres no circle shape, the logo is printed on like the microsoft logo is printed on the WMO, in the same sort of place








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blackmesatech*
> 
> One other question would be on the glossy version ( if your still doing it ) will the left and right mouse buttons be glossy as well or rubber?


Glossy.


----------



## Battou62

Very much looking forward to this, hurry up


----------



## resis

Can you give us some most recent pictures of the mosue bst? On a black cloth mat, please.


----------



## bst

Sorry I don't have any new pics atm, but nothings changed anyway, except a logo on the back and the usual sticker on the bottom with the serial no etc.

Theres the gallery with loads of pics if you haven't seen it:
http://www.erasem.com/gallery/


----------



## v4mp1

ye shape looks good so far, waiting for the version 5).


----------



## Ev0lution

Any idea when we can expect this to be available to buy? Also any idea on price? Lastly, what are the dimensions?


----------



## blackmesatech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> No, theres no circle shape, the logo is printed on like the microsoft logo is printed on the WMO, in the same sort of place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glossy.


Good to hear, thanks for replying. I'm looking forward to getting both.

Have you decided if your going with the 3090 only or still doing both?


----------



## v4mp1

any news bst? xD


----------



## NuFon

Btw why the grooves? Won't they just collect a lot of gunk?


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NuFon*
> 
> Btw why the grooves? Won't they just collect a lot of gunk?


I also hate that, but bst said it wasn't his choice (it's an OEM shell afterall), so there is nothing that can be done about that at the moment.


----------



## NuFon

Guess electrical tape will cover the grooves and still give a nice surface







Though electrical tape tends to get pretty greasy.


----------



## iMik

Any progress ?


----------



## iMik

Quote:


> Some small updates:
> The 3090 version will have a native 400 DPI option now, I wanted to get it changed before the beta test, since it was really important to some people.
> 
> I also asked them to make it so the 3050 version can be ran in all of its native steps of 250 DPI, from 250-2000 DPI. Theres been a few little things like that.
> 
> I'll update the main post soon and it will outline what will be on the beta mice, and the options in the drivers etc.
> 
> Most other things for the mouse are done, like the driver graphics, packaging, etc.
> 
> The website is nearly done but I am doing it myself, so along with doing the packaging and drivers its taken a while for me to do. But I'm hoping in about a week it'll be practically finished as I have most of next week to work on it.
> 
> Other than that just waiting as paitiently as I can for the development to be over and the beta testing can start!


http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2287188


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iMik*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Some small updates:
> The 3090 version will have a native 400 DPI option now, I wanted to get it changed before the beta test, since it was really important to some people.
Click to expand...

Discreetly positioning myself at the buying queue again.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NuFon*
> 
> Btw why the grooves? Won't they just collect a lot of gunk?


I thought that, but I've used the mouse for about 4 months now (pretty much all day, every day), and I haven't had any problems. For some reason it doesn't collect as much gunk as it looks like it would.

Heres a pic, I haven't cleaned it for over a month now, and this is a dusty office, and I eat a lot of takeaways at my pc (typical gamer environment xD):
http://erasem.com/images/P7201258.JPG
Its holding up nicely, all the switches feel fine, and rubber coating is fine, I'm really happy with the quality of it so far.

Like resis said, I can't do anything about the grooves atm, but when/if I get the chance to change them, I will redo the entire mold for the mouse and let people vote on changes.


----------



## Battou62

Hows the feedback from other people on the mouse?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Battou62*
> 
> Hows the feedback from other people on the mouse?


There is none atm, because no one has the mouse except me.

However, most of the beta testers should have the version with the 3050 sensor soon, because they are being sent to me today. So feedback for that version isn't far away


----------



## nsKb

Looks like my kinzuadder might become a backup mouse.


----------



## karod

Oh, the first post got updated.

http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/


----------



## aikYu

shut up and take my money


----------



## Limniscate

Before Christmas? Argh!


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> Before Christmas?


Which usually means after Christmas.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aikYu*
> 
> shut up and take my money


I played with the thought to try the Razer Taipan, I still might do (just trying), but I am aware that the Aurora might be all that I really need. The shape looks good (not as perfect as Xai/Sensei, but still very nice), sensor with standard lens (no Zowie screw-up, I can still tape fix it! and remove the tape fix if I feel like it), super flexible cord. Yes, even customizable lights (I love orange, it works calming for me).

I only hope that the mouse buttons, side buttons and wheel (scroll and click) are as close to the way they are with the Roccan Savu as possible. Please! I found my ideal with them (admittedly, the scroll could be slightly easier).

@bst:

Try to keep pricing low, but not on cost of quality. And how do the mouse buttons feel? I really really hope close to the Savu.


----------



## bst

I just say before Christmas because I don't want to commit to a release date yet, I don't want to have to change it again, so I'm leaving it at that until I have something more concrete.

The buttons feel really good to me, and overall I don't notice the mouse, and thats how it should be when things work well. Its the first time I've ever had that happen, at least to this degree. Of course not everyone will feel that way, but its not a bad start.

I don't own a Savu so I can't directly compare it, I'll try and explain how the buttons feel though:

Main buttons: they aren't feather touch, but are still very easy to click and don't "bottom out", theres no mushy or loose feeling to them (thats true of all the buttons).

Side buttons: To me they're perfect, just at the right point where they require a deliberate click, but not a very hard click. So if I just brush them lightly with my thumb, they won't click, but at the same time they aren't hard to click so I can't click them easily when I need to. In quake I use the back side button for walking (which I use a very much for fine aiming and stealth), so if they were awkwardly hard to push or too light, I'd notice it and probably would start to dislike it (thats what I mean by not noticing the mouse).

Scroll wheel: I can't really imagine how the scrolling could be improved. its got everything I ever wanted and has shown no bugs at all. Its quiet, easy to turn, doesn't feel loose at all,and the steps are distinct.

Scroll wheel button: I would prefer it just a little bit easier to click, but its not bad at all. I did ask for the click to be made a bit lighter, so in a few days time when I get the newer samples I should see if they managed it.

Also, just in case anyone is wondering, its the kind of mouse which if you pick it up and shake it, its practically silent, theres no rattles (little things like that annoy me for some reason







).

I should probably take a video of it soon, click the buttons and show the cord, etc.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Also, just in case anyone is wondering, its the kind of mouse which if you pick it up and shake it, its practically silent, theres no rattles (little things like that annoy me for some reason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).


I have this with the AM, Deathadder and Diamondback. With the AM it's the wheel, so I really feel some weight shifting around, in the Diamondback there is some light clacking inside and the Deathadder has very shacky and clacky side buttons.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I should probably take a video of it soon, click the buttons and show the cord, etc.


Yes please, in 1080p.


----------



## karod

Yes, my Deathadder has rattling side buttons, too.
No, It isn't the side buttons on my mouse, it is the profile button on the bottom that rattles.
If I then put a finger or tape on that button and move the mouse very hard up and down, the scroll wheel jumps up and down and rattles.

And the scroll wheel of the Ninox Aurora sounds like the scroll wheel of the Deathadder.
24 distinct steps, no sound while scrolling down and only a very slightly noticeable dull sound while scrolling up.


----------



## resis

Ok, that's enough. I need a new mouse, RIGHT NOW!

I'm done with AM. Played some Natural Selection 2 and Crysis 2 and sometimes I feel like I can't move the mouse, fast and accurate turns feel so sloppy and heavy to perform. Went back to Diamondback 3G and I can really tell the difference (for the fifth time), suddenly turning around feels lighter and more precise. Maybe it's subjective. Don't think it's the large feet of the AM, because it feels quite smooth to move it around.

Why not Diamondback then? While it's an excellent mouse, it's not that greatly build. Mouse click, while relatively light, doesn't feel that good. The sidebuttons were always its weakness. The cord is a crime. Though the shape is excellent. While the AM has a very comfortable shape, which is great for browsing, the Diamondback has a much better to control shape, excellent for gaming.

Of course it's all just my opinion.

I really refuse to buy the Taipan, because I think, no, I know that a much cheaper quality optical is all I need. Aurora is simply the best candidate for this at the moment. My only gripe is that I wish the Aurora was one centimeter longer (Diamondback lengh is perfect). Also the scrollwheel being that far at the back is pretty disappointing, but it's an OEM shape, can't do anything about it I guess. I wish to see another optical with a Diamondback-esque shape at some point.

Beta-testers, HURRY!


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I really refuse to buy the Taipan, because I think, no, I know that a much cheaper quality optical is all I need. Aurora is simply the best candidate for this at the moment. My only gripe is that I wish the Aurora was one centimeter longer (Diamondback lengh is perfect). Also the scrollwheel being that far at the back is pretty disappointing, but it's an OEM shape, can't do anything about it I guess. I wish to see another optical with a Diamondback-esque shape at some point.
> Beta-testers, HURRY!


What's this "Aurora" you talk of?

edit: neeevermind. codename updated apparently


----------



## Limniscate

beta test incoming:

http://erasem.com/images/P8020015.jpg

http://erasem.com/images/P8020006.jpg


----------



## .:hybrid:.

Interesting. As someone with sweaty hands, my mice gunk up pretty quickly, so I really hope they get rid of the grooves. To clean my mouse I flip it upside down a rub it on my mousepad, doing so would move the gunk into the grooves which is not what I want.

How will this be sold? Hopefully it won't be limited to America.

If you need a European beta tester with very sweaty hands...







Looking for an alternative to my Intellimouse.


----------



## resis

Nice. I like the packaging and the mouse looks fresh.

Here a comparison in shell length with the Diamondback (bst was kind enough).



Looks very similar, so should have a nice grip, but I personally wish it was slightly longer. Diamondback length is really perfect for me, but it's just my opinion of course.

The sides are \_/. Very nice.



@.:hybrid:.

Bst is from Britain and shipping to Europe is not a problem.

Those grooves will probably stay, unfortunately. My mice don't get very dirty, but I also remarked those grooves as dirt catchers. Guess we have to find another way to clean it.


----------



## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Nice. I like the packaging and the mouse looks fresh.
> Here a comparison in shell length with the Diamondback (bst was kind enough).
> 
> Looks very similar, so should have a nice grip, but I personally wish it was slightly longer. Diamondback length is really perfect for me, but it's just my opinion of course.
> The sides are \_/. Very nice.
> 
> @.:hybrid:.
> Bst is from Britain and shipping to Europe is not a problem.
> Those grooves will probably stay, unfortunately. My mice don't get very dirty, but I also remarked those grooves as dirt catchers. Guess we have to find another way to clean it.


I'll just use a credit card or piece of paper to clean in between the grooves.


----------



## Nivity

I use compressed air to clean all my computer stuff and have for years








Good stuff.

Length is perfect for me, the only gripe I had with diamondback other then the weird rubberthingy side was it was a tad to long.

Cant wait to order this mouse!


----------



## .:hybrid:.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> I'll just use a credit card or piece of paper to clean in between the grooves.


But what is the benefit of the grooves? Only aesthetics? Why settle for having to clean the grooves in a mouse when you can get rid of the grooves completely?


----------



## nyshak

They are part of the shell. It's an OEM design I think and the shell actually consists of three parts.

But tbh, I don't see a problem with this. You won't feel the grooves and any wet cloth should be enogh to clean it...


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> They are part of the shell. It's an OEM design I think and the shell actually consists of three parts.


That's the thing. I don't know if the shell consists of three parts, but as you said, it is an OEM shell and redesigning that part would mean it needs to be a custom mold and that comes at a price. Either BST would have to pay for this additional feature, or us at the far end.

I'm sure, that if BST should stay in the gaming mouse business successfully, he will have a custom designed shell at some point. Using OEM at this point was simply the most logical move.


----------



## Nivity

He already stated somewhere that the groves is in the OEM already, to change it would increase the cost alot, and thats not something he wanted to do and I agree, that would be to put a knife in your own back.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> That's the thing. I don't know if the shell consists of three parts, but as you said, it is an OEM shell and redesigning that part would mean it needs to be a custom mold and that comes at a price. Either BST would have to pay for this additional feature, or us at the far end.
> I'm sure, that if BST should stay in the gaming mouse business successfully, he will have a custom designed shell at some point. Using OEM at this point was simply the most logical move.


I only tried to answer hybrids question. You're right ofc, he can't afford a custom mold atm. Maybe later. But to me, the grooves really are no bad thing. In fact, I think they look kinda cool. The stuff inside the mouse matters much more


----------



## bst

The grooves are so tight together that hardly anything gets in there, for example a credit card would be way too thick, a piece of paper is more like it, even then it would hardly be able to get in. They probably just look worse in the photos than they really are









But yes, the plan is to one day develop a new shell with community input. This stage is more about sensor development. If I sell enough then I'll move onto more advanced shell development


----------



## vss vintorez

The shape is awesome, we need performance now... they are seeking low LOD and high tracking rates, let's see if they can get it.


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> The shape is awesome, we need performance now... they are seeking low LOD and high tracking rates, let's see if they can get it.


The 3050 will be probably better solution for that purposes, only if it will be coded well via the SROM ofc...

Bst? do not trust the factroy words/software pictures completetly. please test it yourself and trust more the BETA-TEST guys. you dont want be as PureTrak case, we wont too.


----------



## end0rphine

BST

I still love these designs. Just breathes WMO. If you want to refine or change it as time goes, great, but that WMO shell base is awesome.


----------



## Battou62

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The grooves are so tight together that hardly anything gets in there, for example a credit card would be way too thick, a piece of paper is more like it, even then it would hardly be able to get in. They probably just look worse in the photos than they really are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, the plan is to one day develop a new shell with community input. This stage is more about sensor development. If I sell enough then I'll move onto more advanced shell development


I don't think you will any problem selling these


----------



## Genub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> BST
> I still love these designs. Just breathes WMO. If you want to refine or change it as time goes, great, but that WMO shell base is awesome.


Holy cow that white design is sexy but not a fan of the "1,1" back and forward button placements. Still looks great tho!


----------



## AscendSix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> BST
> I still love these designs. Just breathes WMO. If you want to refine or change it as time goes, great, but that WMO shell base is awesome.


Same here, the only mouse to me that feels comfortable for Claw/Fintertip gripl, only problem is that it's only 400 and the scroll wheel is not very tight.


----------



## Hdusu64346

hope this mouse works well.


----------



## dipanzan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> BST
> I still love these designs. Just breathes WMO. If you want to refine or change it as time goes, great, but that WMO shell base is awesome.


WOW, what mouse is that. Absolutely awesome shape.
*drools*


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> BST
> I still love these designs. Just breathes WMO. If you want to refine or change it as time goes, great, but that WMO shell base is awesome.


That shape is awesome indeed. Would love to have one with such a shape. I'd need two sidebuttons though.


----------



## end0rphine

To save any confusion, these are from BST's prototype designs from the esreality page:

http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2173880


----------



## Nivity

shame if the buttons happen, hate that 1.1 button design, sucked on kana aswell.

Thats why I love his current mouse, 2 sidebuttons on left side. none at right = perfect!


----------



## eosgreen

whens this being released kthx


----------



## karod

Last statement was "before Christmas"
So maybe end of fall, if everything works well.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> shame if the buttons happen, hate that 1.1 button design, sucked on kana aswell.
> Thats why I love his current mouse, *2 sidebuttons on left side. none at right = perfect!*


have to agree with this, i hate ambidextrous mice that have buttons on the right, my ring and pinky finger always hit them. Going by the look of his current mouse, i dare say im at good odds of buying myself one:thumb:


----------



## FlipBack

What are the supposed differences between the Aurora and the Velocity? I assume they are targeted to different audiences.


----------



## karod

Aurora: ADNS 3090, mid-sized shell with side buttons.
Velocity: ADNS 3050, shell seems smaller without side buttons, less customization options in driver


----------



## end0rphine

IIRC velocity has the 30*5*0 sensor and shape hasn't been decided yet.


----------



## karod

Thx, I edited the mistake, it is 3050 ofc.
Yeah, look there for the possible shells of the velocity http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/

Those are the shell pictures linked:
http://www.erasem.com/images/esr/ninox_velocity_shell_1a.jpg
http://www.erasem.com/images/esr/ninox_velocity_shell_1b.jpg
http://www.erasem.com/images/esr/ninox_velocity_shell_2.jpg


----------



## FlipBack

What's the difference between the 3090 and the 3050? I have the Spawn which has the 3090.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FlipBack*
> 
> What's the difference between the 3090 and the 3050? I have the Spawn which has the 3090.


Really mainly to do with how well the sensor captures images. 3090 sensor is capable of higher resolution images, making it a better sensor at higher DPI values. This is generally due to it being a smaller package - 8 DIP pins compared to the 20 in the 3090, lower voltage necessary, etc. It's a budget sensor, but works well in low DPI settings I guess if used right.


----------



## bst

Just a bit of info about those designs below, I plan to do something like that if the first mice are enough of a success.
Also the side buttons would be 2 on each side, and also would be looking into making them cartridge based, so you can pop them out and replace with blanks, so you can choose what side to have the buttons on, or none at all. But if it happens it'll be started some time next year and probably won't be done until about this time next year. It'll also most likely use the same 3090 sensor set up as the Aurora.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> BST
> I still love these designs. Just breathes WMO. If you want to refine or change it as time goes, great, but that WMO shell base is awesome.


----------



## NuFon

Please do the next design BST, I would really love that design.







It just seems perfect, probably going to get one of your auroras aswell


----------



## SoFGR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Just a bit of info about those designs below, I plan to do something like that if the first mice are enough of a success.
> Also the side buttons would be 2 on each side, and also would be looking into making them cartridge based, so you can pop them out and replace with blanks, so you can choose what side to have the buttons on, or none at all. But if it happens it'll be started some time next year and probably won't be done until about this time next year. It'll also most likely use the same 3090 sensor set up as the Aurora.


plz consider this design as well -> http://www.esreality.com/post/1315160/

I'm sure a lot of ppl miss it by now


----------



## Limniscate

Has anyone received their beta mouse yet?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SoFGR*
> 
> plz consider this design as well -> http://www.esreality.com/post/1315160/
> I'm sure a lot of ppl miss it by now


Oh I can do one similar to that really easy, the factory already has that sort of shape.

Also comes in two sizes. The pic doesn't show the side button version.
Tbh the problem isn't really developing mice, its the minimum order quantities, so the demand has to be there to justify buying loads of them.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> Has anyone received their beta mouse yet?


Yep, some people in the UK have them now, it'll be a few more days before the overseas people get them, but hopefully 90% will get them on or before friday.

Heres a nice youtube video from nvc, one of the testers:



And a quick review from nvc:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nvc*
> packaging
> + good, i know the text isn't accurate to the mouse yet, but mouse was packaged well i.e. didn't have to rip anything in frustration.
> 
> sensor - tested at 2000dpi
> + liftoff distance is perfect
> + no positive/negative acceleration
> + no skipping/jittering on steelseries qck
> +/- can't feel/see any prediction
> 
> build
> + mousewheel feels good, no jumping etc
> + mouse button switches feel nice, stiff, but i like this feel (feels like quality)
> + prefer my deathadder shape, but i can both palm and claw this with no trouble
> + nice and lightweight
> - when you squeeze left side of mouse, it activates mouse4, which is a little annoying and i would imagine many users would have this problem
> 
> summary
> everything about this mouse is amazing, except for the mouse4 issue (and one could argue that it's not to my personal preference in terms of shape as i'm a deathadder guy) but overall i love it, it's great to finally see a good product that wasn't just accidentally brilliant, but was actually intended to be so. I'll wait for drivers to test those, and some feedback on the situation with mouse4, but i'm very impressed so far... i think the most difficult part is already out of the way... the performance of the sensor!


Here was my response about the mouse4 issue:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> About the mouse4 issue, I am aware that by gripping the sides it can cause it to click, but on my samples I have to press really hard to get it to engage, I never had it click accidentally in game, even in really frantic situations or when testing ultra low sens. So my guess is that it depends on how the switches are soldered into the top PCB board - there is most likely a tolerance of 0.3mm or something similar. So the closer the switches are to the side buttons, the easier the issue shows up.
> 
> There are a few things that can be done to prevent it, one of which is by screwing a plastic bar underneath the top PCB, that will stop the sides from being 'squeezable', either that or there may be room to adjust the tolerances so that the chance of it happening is reduced much more. I will let the factory know about it, and see what they say, they may have some ideas on how to solve it themselves.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Just a bit of info about those designs below, I plan to do something like that if the first mice are enough of a success.
> Also the side buttons would be 2 on each side, and also would be looking into making them cartridge based, so you can pop them out and replace with blanks, so you can choose what side to have the buttons on, or none at all. But if it happens it'll be started some time next year and probably won't be done until about this time next year. It'll also most likely use the same 3090 sensor set up as the Aurora.


What are the exact dimensions of this mouse? Looks like 12,5mm-ish in length. I'm definitely interested.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Oh I can do one similar to that really easy, the factory already has that sort of shape.
> 
> Also comes in two sizes. The pic doesn't show the side button version.
> Tbh the problem isn't really developing mice, its the minimum order quantities, so the demand has to be there to justify buying loads of them.


I found out about this one just last week (saw on the internet) and thought that it looked really good actually. The sensor on the Microsoft verision isn't centered, so players wouldn't call it a good gamer mouse though. If you do this, than I believe it is good if you can be sure that the sensor is centered, or you'll get negative reactions.

I don't know how this mouse really feels, but it looks very interesting. I might be interested. What are the dimensions of the two versions?

And congrats on the first review and testing. Looks like a good start so far.


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Oh I can do one similar to that really easy, the factory already has that sort of shape.
> 
> Also comes in two sizes. The pic doesn't show the side button version.
> Tbh the problem isn't really developing mice, its the minimum order quantities, so the demand has to be there to justify buying loads of them.


intersting but sides are too short for puting both of ring and pinky fingers in
I would consider a more IME3.0 design, that one is basically a IME4.0 design copy


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> What are the exact dimensions of this mouse? Looks like 12,5mm-ish in length. I'm definitely interested.


About 125mm x 65mm x 36mm








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I found out about this one just last week (saw on the internet) and thought that it looked really good actually. The sensor on the Microsoft verision isn't centered, so players wouldn't call it a good gamer mouse though. If you do this, than I believe it is good if you can be sure that the sensor is centered, or you'll get negative reactions.
> I don't know how this mouse really feels, but it looks very interesting. I might be interested. What are the dimensions of the two versions?
> And congrats on the first review and testing. Looks like a good start so far.


The size is 115 x 64 x 39mm for the small one and 125 x 72 x 43mm for the big one. I will make sure it has a central sensor location, I don't want to do any that don't have that.


----------



## Axaion

Gotta say, id much prefer an IME 3.0 design over the IME 4.0, ive had that one and did not like it one bit (yes the sensor was terrible, but the shape was meh compared to the IME 3.0 aswell imo)


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Gotta say, id much prefer an IME 3.0 design over the IME 4.0, ive had that one and did not like it one bit (*yes the sensor was terrible*, but the shape was meh compared to the IME 3.0 aswell imo)


????
please remember thats its not all about max speed limit
yeah, might be some negative accel, but for its years its was one of the only sensors which has no correction, with that said, nowdays comperison, its tracking its just unique (very controlable, its like have 1000hz smoothing but with ps/2 feeling) and the LoD is low as ****!
edit: oh nvm you talked about the IME4.0 sorry my bad, blame my english









BST! gimme IME3.0 with ALPS encoder and rubberised top! and maybe 3060/80 without prediction for cost-saving for you (not costs as high as 3090 and LoD is still lower and the tracking-quality is decent)


----------



## resis

Have to agree with the two above, and I had this same thought. Now I never used the IME 3.0, but I constantly hear people asking for something like this. Many people complain about how the Deathadder doesn't suit them, because the IME 3.0 is even longer than the DA. I know someone who used his IME 3.0 for about 11 years and has a hard time to find a mouse that suits him as the 3.0 did. I even thought about to get one just to try the shape.

With a IME 3.0 shape, modern coating, ADNS3090 sensor, soft rubber cord, omron main switches, very good wheel, and the shiny led lights... no doubt you'd fill a niche and more. I'd defenitely would buy one, eventhough I prefer ambidextrous, but the IME 3.0 is something I always wanted to try and I know for sure there are many asking for something like that.


----------



## bst

I thought the IME 3.0 with 3090 sensor was already covered with the Zowie EC Evo?

Btw I don't think its possible to get the 3060 or 3080 without prediction, and also I think they've been discontinued (thats what I was told last time I enquired about them).


----------



## Axaion

Not quite no, its got horrible hard switches, its short, and the coating is terrible, and then they go and do a full gloss instead of one with GOOD rubber sides and glossy top like the IME 3.0


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I thought the IME 3.0 with 3090 sensor was already covered with the Zowie EC Evo?
> Btw I don't think its possible to get the 3060 or 3080 without prediction, and also I think they've been discontinued (thats what I was told last time I enquired about them).


Dunno about the hate of Axaion with zowies, hehe
but I would just like you to copy its design (even that > ringy placement on the right ) and even more "/ " angeled right side as EC's, and the wheel on EC's are very cheap optical solution. As I said, I'm intersting in ALPS which as you know, the best. and ofc led based sensor (best combo of low LoD and still decent tracking imho)

tl;dr: IME3.0A Clone, fixed encoder, paint coat (as Xai's surface as possible, please), better sensor - done!! I'll invest finance-share on ninox!


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I thought the IME 3.0 with 3090 sensor was already covered with the Zowie EC Evo?
> Btw I don't think its possible to get the 3060 or 3080 without prediction, and also I think they've been discontinued (thats what I was told last time I enquired about them).


The future of cmos tech will be interesting if you manage to figure out what im Implying ^^


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1*
> 
> Dunno about the hate of Axaion with zowies, hehe
> but I would just like you to copy its design (even that > ringy placement on the right ) and even more "/ " angeled right side as EC's, and the wheel on EC's are very cheap optical solution. As I said, I'm intersting in ALPS which as you know, the best. and ofc led based sensor (best combo of low LoD and still decent tracking imho)
> tl;dr: IME3.0A Clone, fixed encoder, paint coat (as Xai's surface as possible, please), better sensor - done!! I'll invest finance-share on ninox!


Bad experiences, but im sure theyre good mice for other people who likes the way they feel


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Bad experiences, but im sure theyre good mice for other people who likes the way they feel


lets just agree with the tl;dr part


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1*
> 
> lets just agree with the tl;dr part


Agreed


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I thought the IME 3.0 with 3090 sensor was already covered with the Zowie EC Evo?
> Btw I don't think its possible to get the 3060 or 3080 without prediction, and also I think they've been discontinued (thats what I was told last time I enquired about them).


I remember the IME 3.0 folks said that the EC was a bit too short for them, just like the Deathadder (DA and EC are about the same in size). I used the Deathadder for years and actually agree, that for a full palm grip it may be a tad bit too short (I don't have large hands). I guess IME 3.0 has a perfect shape for a 100% palm grip. And honesly I think it looks really cool, the way the shell parts are put together and the sidebuttons align with the left mouse button, but that's rather irrelevant.

If you are curious about what people say, you could make a poll. Or perhaps I'll do it.


----------



## FlipBack

I'm itching for more feedback from beta testers!


----------



## CMCarter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> The future of cmos tech will be interesting if you manage to figure out what im Implying ^^


Nobody knows whats ahead. We could lose all the performance we had worked so hard to gain.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CMCarter*
> 
> Nobody knows whats ahead. We could lose all the performance we had worked so hard to gain.


I'd say I have a fair idea. Performance lost or gained will depend on how far your company is willing to push development in that area ^^


----------



## CMCarter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I'd say I have a fair idea. Performance lost or gained will depend on how far your company is willing to push development in that area ^^


More dependent on if we are still able to acquire quality sensors like those we have now. Currently that is very much in limbo....


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CMCarter*
> 
> More dependent on if we are still able to acquire quality sensors like those we have now. Currently that is very much in limbo....


So I'm aware.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nvc*
> build
> + mouse button switches feel nice, stiff, but i like this feel (feels like quality)


I hope not Zowie AM stiff...


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I hope not Zowie AM stiff...


I haven't tried the AM, but I wouldn't call the buttons hard to press at all, if thats what you're worried about. I think nvc just means that they aren't loose and aren't ridiculously easy to press. This is what Ramla777 said about them:
"left/right mouse buttons = perfect please don't change these."


----------



## ich1ban

They aren't hard to press, but certainly a lot harder than OMRONs, making them ineffective and inefficient for games that require a lot of clicking ie. RTS

It's like putting 1kg weights in your shoes, wouldn't affect your walking(general web browsing) whatsoever but it's a lot more than being bare footed if you're trying to run up a flight of stairs constantly(RTS gaming). But then you'll probably get used to it after months of using it like that.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ich1ban*
> 
> They aren't hard to press, but certainly a lot harder than OMRONs, making them ineffective and inefficient for games that require a lot of clicking ie. RTS
> It's like putting 1kg weights in your shoes, wouldn't affect your walking(general web browsing) whatsoever but it's a lot more than being bare footed if you're trying to run up a flight of stairs constantly(RTS gaming). But then you'll probably get used to it after months of using it like that.


I thought they _were_ omrons?

EDIT: Unless you were talking about the Zowie AM?


----------



## bst

They are Omrons, ich1ban is talking about the Zowie AM









The beta testers have D2FC-F-7N (including nvc), except one who has D2FC-F-7N(10M). Only two of the mice had the 10M versions and I have the other one. The 10M ones are going to be in the final version. They both have the same feeling.

I can measure how much force they take to press with some postage scales, at the front for the first 4.5cm, it starts at 25 grams, and gradually goes up to 50g. It starts to get harder after that because the button joins to the case at about 5.5cm, so the last cm starts to get pretty stiff, it starts at about 50g then goes to 100, then 150, then 250, which is the limit of these scales. So if you get some scales and tap on them with your finger, you can get an idea of much force the buttons take (though its not a good way to see how they actually feel to rapidly click)


----------



## resis

No worries, I think they'll be good. I also think about the Roccat Savu buttons that they are stiff, but in a good and easy to click way, while the Zowie AM buttons are noticeably harder to press. EC1/2 eVo buttons felt easy, but too mushy.


----------



## glockateer

After being able to test the past couple days, I have a lot of faith in his first two releases. His 3050 firmware and hardware configuration is solid already.


----------



## nyshak

This is starting to look really good.


----------



## v4mp1

Go go release this and take my money!!!


----------



## Limniscate

With all of the beta testers on this board, I'm amazed there hasn't been more discussion about the beta samples!


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> With all of the beta testers on this board, I'm amazed there hasn't been more discussion about the beta samples!


Same here. Perhaps they just need time to be sure about their experience with it. You can't make a full indepth analysis after two nights Quake Live. Also the beta testers do not exactly review the mouse for us, but beta test it for the manufacturer. Still, I'd hoped for a bit more information by now.


----------



## MikeRELI

it's his first mouse guys... give him a break. he'll release things as they come along.

i just hope he can have these things shipped in the US cuz i want one but don't want to wait 2 weeks to get it =(


----------



## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MikeRELI*
> 
> it's his first mouse guys... give him a break. he'll release things as they come along.
> i just hope he can have these things shipped in the US cuz i want one but don't want to wait 2 weeks to get it =(


He said he'll have a distributor in the U.S..


----------



## bst

I suppose there isn't really a great deal to say, on the whole the mouse has had good reviews so far, although most beta testers are still getting used to it and so haven't gotten round to reviewing it. I know that some are writing their feedback as they go, and will post it on the beta test forums soon.

Theres a small list of things which I want to get sorted, but the most important things that everyone worries about is fine. The general consensus is that for a budget mouse, the velocity has the potential to be one of the best, if I fix the small issues then I think people are going to really love it.

Really the A3050 (Velocity) test is really a preview test, its development was stopped when I moved to the A3090 (Aurora), there is one main thing I want to do before I consider the sensor and FW setup ready for release. I don't want to go into the details of what it is, but I think it will make it the best example of a 3050 sensor once its done (IMO it already is, but it'll just make it better).

Heres some quotes from the beta testers, these are some of the positive things they have said about the mouse so far:

Derp:
- "I think this mouse has a chance to be THE budget mouse to buy"
- "The mouse is pretty much flawless at 500 DPI"
- "The Shape. An obvious preference but I personally love this shell. After looking at the early pictures I thought the grooves in the shell would be gunk magnets but now that I have it in my hands the grooves are so tight that I don't see it being much of a problem. The side buttons are well designed, small enough to never be in the way but positioned where they can be easily used."
- "The lift off distance is low but not too low. A nice balance when compared to other optical mice"
- "I don't know how long it will last but the wheel is excellent, I wouldn't change anything about it."
- "The buttons feel great, neither too soft or firm"
- "The feet are a good size and not too small"
- "Prediction is very minimal."
- "The sensor doesn't seem too picky about surfaces when it comes to jitter and maximum tracking speeds"

Bullveyr:
- "shape works very well for me (claw)"
- "good overall sensor performance (jitter, LOD, max. speed, accel.)"

Ramla777:
- "I really like this body/shape"
- "Prediction: More people are going to have to test this. If it has some, it's very little. I am very picky with prediction and I haven't noticed any while playing."
- "So far I haven't noticed any tracking issues"

Glockateer:
- "Mouse buttons - Mouse 1 and 2 are crisp while 3/4/5 are a little heavier but I'm not put off by it. The side buttons on the aurora shell are awesome and out of the way for ambi lovers."
- "The scroll wheel - It works and it feels good."
- "I'm not sure how the real velocity shell will feel but the sensor certainly passes the test for a budget mouse killer."

NVC:
See here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1240739/bsts-gaming-mouse/250#post_17892418

I don't want to come across as biased for only mentioning the positive quotes, I just wanted to show what has been acheived so far, hope everyone understands. Also I didn't leave anyone out, those are from all the reviews/impressions so far.

There are some minor niggles the testers have, but theres not much point in mentioning them because:
1) No one has said anything major
2) They can all be improved/fixed easily (eg, "the mouse cord should be 30cm longer)
3) I already knew about them and were already planned to be improved
4) Some are just personal preference

For the personal preference things, its a bit of a tough one. I have to wait until theres more feedback until I make decisions about it. But say for example some people want a different feel to the scroll wheel, and some people think its perfect, so you can see its hard, but maybe I will try and get the best of both worlds.


----------



## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I suppose there isn't really a great deal to say, on the whole the mouse has had good reviews so far, although most beta testers are still getting used to it and so haven't gotten round to reviewing it. I know that some are writing their feedback as they go, and will post it on the beta test forums soon.
> Theres a small list of things which I want to get sorted, but the most important things that everyone worries about is fine. The general consensus is that for a budget mouse, the velocity has the potential to be one of the best, if I fix the small issues then I think people are going to really love it.
> Really the A3050 (Velocity) test is really a preview test, its development was stopped when I moved to the A3090 (Aurora), there is one main thing I want to do before I consider the sensor and FW setup ready for release. I don't want to go into the details of what it is, but I think it will make it the best example of a 3050 sensor once its done (IMO it already is, but it'll just make it better).
> Heres some quotes from the beta testers, these are some of the positive things they have said about the mouse so far:
> Derp:
> - "I think this mouse has a chance to be THE budget mouse to buy"
> - "The mouse is pretty much flawless at 500 DPI"
> - "The Shape. An obvious preference but I personally love this shell. After looking at the early pictures I thought the grooves in the shell would be gunk magnets but now that I have it in my hands the grooves are so tight that I don't see it being much of a problem. The side buttons are well designed, small enough to never be in the way but positioned where they can be easily used."
> - "The lift off distance is low but not too low. A nice balance when compared to other optical mice"
> - "I don't know how long it will last but the wheel is excellent, I wouldn't change anything about it."
> - "The buttons feel great, neither too soft or firm"
> - "The feet are a good size and not too small"
> - "Prediction is very minimal."
> - "The sensor doesn't seem too picky about surfaces when it comes to jitter and maximum tracking speeds"
> Bullveyr:
> - "shape works very well for me (claw)"
> - "good overall sensor performance (jitter, LOD, max. speed, accel.)"
> Ramla777:
> - "I really like this body/shape"
> - "Prediction: More people are going to have to test this. If it has some, it's very little. I am very picky with prediction and I haven't noticed any while playing."
> - "So far I haven't noticed any tracking issues"
> Glockateer:
> - "Mouse buttons - Mouse 1 and 2 are crisp while 3/4/5 are a little heavier but I'm not put off by it. The side buttons on the aurora shell are awesome and out of the way for ambi lovers."
> - "The scroll wheel - It works and it feels good."
> - "I'm not sure how the real velocity shell will feel but the sensor certainly passes the test for a budget mouse killer."
> NVC:
> See here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1240739/bsts-gaming-mouse/250#post_17892418
> I don't want to come across as biased for only mentioning the positive quotes, I just wanted to show what has been acheived so far, hope everyone understands. Also I didn't leave anyone out, those are from all the reviews/impressions so far.
> There are some minor niggles the testers have, but theres not much point in mentioning them because:
> 1) No one has said anything major
> 2) They can all be improved/fixed easily (eg, "the mouse cord should be 30cm longer)
> 3) Some are just personal preference
> For the personal preference things, its a bit of a tough one. I have to wait until theres more feedback until I make decisions about it. But say for example some people want a different feel to the scroll wheel, and some people think its perfect, so you can see its hard, but maybe I will try and get the best of both worlds.


Thanks for the update. I can't wait for this mouse to come out! When do you think the beta test for the Aurora will happen?


----------



## resis

Thanks bst!

I hope I'll have the Aurora when ArmA3 is released.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> Thanks for the update. I can't wait for this mouse to come out! When do you think the beta test for the Aurora will happen?


I should be getting them in a week or so, its not far away, I hope the beta testers can get them before the end of the month.


----------



## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I should be getting them in a week or so, its not far away, I hope the beta testers can get them before the end of the month.


Awesome, I hope you release them before the Heart of the Swarm beta.


----------



## skydro

How wide is the Velocity shell from the places where you grip the mouse with thumb and ring finger? Is it thinner than abyssus? How about Aurora? Aurora looks to be wider than abyssus which doesn't really suit me since abyssus already feels like it's too wide


----------



## bst

Its about 53mm wide on the bottom, and 61mm at its widest, so each side slopes up by 4mm on each side. Further towards the back of the mouse the top tapers in a bit horizontally, so the sides become straighter at the back.


----------



## v4mp1

Any updates?


----------



## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> Any updates?


Aurora samples haven't been sent out yet, and apparently, the Velocity samples have a lower tracking rate than intended. This bodes well, since the Velocity sample's tracking rate is already excellent according to beta testers.


----------



## bst

Yes thats it.

Basically doing two main things, aside from checking that lots of small things are in order.

1) The tracking speed of the Velocity was lower than my first two samples, but its not really something that would affect the mouse for 99% of people. Its just that if theres a better way to do it, and if I can get more tracking speed, then I want to do it that way. I want to find out why it happened so that I can keep the performance as good as it can be on all the mice. Its something which may not even affect the A3090 (Aurora) versions, but I wanted to make sure before they're sent out. I would have had to do it anyway so I'd rather do it now and send better beta test samples out, than do it afterwards.

So the difference is for example:
Old sample @ 500 DPI: (enotus will only see the DPI as 499 DPI = 400 DPI, and 500 DPI = 600 DPi, so I take the two and average them:
400 DPI = 6m/s
600 DPI = 4.2m/s
Average = 5.1m/s
Derp got 6m/s at 600 DPI in enotus for the new sample, and I believe Ramla777 got 4.3m/s (think he probably used 400 DPI?) so I think that 500 DPI is fine and theres no real difference.

But at the higher DPI it starts to drop off:
New samples @ 1000 DPI: ~3.4m/s
Old samples @ 1000 DPI: ~5m/s

In all fairness its barely even an issue at all, since if you're a low sens user, then its always best to use the lowest DPI anyway. But I am thinking of people that for some reason believe that higher DPI is better (maybe they just like to stick to one DPI also), so if they can have higher tracking speeds, then why not. And its just an overall quality thing, I just want to know what happened









I'm getting one sample of the Aurora (A3090) version sent to me, so I can give it a good test, and in the mean time the factory is looking into it. Most likely its an issue only related to the Velocity, but I just want to make sure the A3090 meets my high standards before sending them to the beta testers







And if they find that its something that does also affect the Aurora, then I'll get them to fix it before sending the beta test samples to me.

2) With the custom DPI, I learnt more about how its best to do it, so I made a change to how it scales it. At the moment it scales it from 4000 DPI, so for example 50% of 4000 is 2000 DPI, but I have asked them to change it so that it scales from the closest DPI, because otherwise any scaled down DPI that uses 4000 DPI as its 'base' will inherit the lower accuracy and tracking speed of the higher DPI (thats true for all sensors and isn't directly related to the issue above). For example its better if you want to use 600 DPI, that it uses 75% of 800 DPI, which has better tracking quality and tracking speed compared with 4000 DPI. So it always uses the next native DPI step up, eg 1000 DPI would use the native 1600 DPI step, 1800 DPI would use the 3200 DPI step, and so on. So this might take a little while, though hopefully not too long, but theres not much point in having the beta testers test the old way.


----------



## Sencha

I'll be supporting with a purchase


----------



## resis

See what you did bst? You brought lolcatz into play, now the world is close to the brink. Hurry!!


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> I'll be supporting with a purchase


Thanks. always nice to hear








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> 
> See what you did bst? You brought lolcatz into play, now the world is close to the brink. Hurry!!


Hehe, well I see your lolcat and raise you a lol... owl...?


----------



## nyshak

I like that. I'm one of those who like to stay on higher DPI for desktop and because I play on my monitors native resolution. With my sens in cm 400 DPI aint enough to avoid pixel skipping ingame. So yeah, what you're doing is the right thing.


----------



## Yahar

Aye, playing new games with 1080p (native) resolution will need a bigger cpi and 1600p screen need more cpi. Plus 4k reso screens coming in future will need even higher dpi, so it's nice that you are making sure the max tracking speeds don't suffer too much.









For me personally 3 m/s would be too low. I will use the native 1600 dpi step with 1600p monitor when I upgrade, so hope you'll fix it!

Btw, hurry up! But if you need time to fix them problems, take your time!


----------



## Ickz

I really cant wait for this mouse. I've been having some bad hand/carpal tunnel pains and started using some support gloves. I'm basically forced to fingertip grip my g400, but I think it would feel much better with the Aurora due to it's size/shape.


----------



## Mayor Winters

I cant wait too. Ive been in the search for a good mouse like my old G3 and cant find the one which at least equals to the G3 for me.

I game at 1600-1800 dpi (1800 atm) so this mouse, the Aurora fits me perfectly. I use claw grip, I love the low weighted mouses and I dont need many buttons...

Since I got the G3 6 years ago, I loved it and tried other mouses like G5, G500, G400, G9, G9x, Razer copperhead, Intellimouse 3.0, 1.1, razer mamba, razer salmosa, various ozone, etc. A lot of mouses, you see. And none was good to me.

Nowadays the G3 is still kicking, but I want to replace it so I can put the g3 back in the box and save it while still works, as sometimes I re plug it to remember how good it was... I purchased a DeathAdder Black Edition which I like a lot, but it weights too much, not a problem when u get used to it, but this one, the aurora, oh god, I will buy one day 1.


----------



## Manspider

I've been keeping an eye on this mouse for a while now. It seems to be coming along very nicely. I'm sure I'll pick one up as an alternative to my Zowie AM and Intelli 1.1. ^^

Keep up the good work!


----------



## v4mp1

update pls bst


----------



## Scorpion667

You need to release this mouse soon, I am so sick of trying to find a good fingertip grip high perfect control mouse.


----------



## Polar3D

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> You need to release this mouse soon, I am so sick of trying to find a good fingertip grip high perfect control mouse.


Look at it this way:
the more time spent on this mouse, the better it will be


----------



## Scorpion667

But, but my G400 died the other day...

You know how hard it is to do a quick 180 dropshot with a WMO that loses tracking around 1.5m/s? =(

I'm soooo looking forward to this mouse, you have no idea.


----------



## Axaion

man, atleast you can still buy the G400, try using a IME 3.0, its hard as hell to find, outside ebay :|


----------



## Manspider

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> man, atleast you can still buy the G400, try using a IME 3.0, its hard as hell to find, outside ebay :|


Which is why I still take extra good care of mine, even if it isn't my main mouse anymore. ^_^


----------



## end0rphine

I loved my IME 3.0 back when I used it. Loved it so much I felt like modding it with some custom paint and switches. Then I screwed it up and now she's dead. Now I know my love kills, and shall never love again


----------



## Manspider

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> I loved my IME 3.0 back when I used it. Loved it so much I felt like modding it with some custom paint and switches. Then I screwed it up and now she's dead. Now I know my love kills, and shall never love again


I did that with my 1800DPI DeathAdder.









I've always wanted to frankenmouse a 3.0 and basically put the internals of a DeathAdder in it. It could probably use a grippy coating as well.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Manspider*
> 
> Which is why I still take extra good care of mine, even if it isn't my main mouse anymore. ^_^


Got a hold of a new one, with a defect top shell that made the bottom shell uneven, basicly had to put the innards of the new mouse into the old one, heh, least it dosent quadra click anymore.


----------



## Limniscate

Have the new beta samples shipped yet?


----------



## handofmidas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mayor Winters*
> 
> I cant wait too. Ive been in the search for a good mouse like my old G3 and cant find the one which at least equals to the G3 for me.
> I game at 1600-1800 dpi (1800 atm) so this mouse, the Aurora fits me perfectly. I use claw grip, I love the low weighted mouses and I dont need many buttons...
> Since I got the G3 6 years ago, I loved it and tried other mouses like G5, G500, G400, G9, G9x, Razer copperhead, Intellimouse 3.0, 1.1, razer mamba, razer salmosa, various ozone, etc. A lot of mouses, you see. And none was good to me.
> Nowadays the G3 is still kicking, but I want to replace it so I can put the g3 back in the box and save it while still works, as sometimes I re plug it to remember how good it was... I purchased a DeathAdder Black Edition which I like a lot, but it weights too much, not a problem when u get used to it, but this one, the aurora, oh god, I will buy one day 1.


Haha I'm in exact the same spot. I've been using my G3 for ~6 years or so. Switched to Abyssus and Xornet but I somehow always went back to the good old G3 after some months. But I'm still looking for a replacement because my G3 is very worn out and so far the Aurora looks very very promising. It has a similar shape, rubber coating, a good sensor and better placed Sidebuttons (imho)
I hope it will come out soon. BTW: Are there any plans for pre-order? How many will be produced?


----------



## viowastaken

Is there a mailing list I can sign up for to get notified on when this baby is finished? i don't like visiting esreality once a week just to check.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> Is there a mailing list I can sign up for to get notified on when this baby is finished? i don't like visiting esreality once a week just to check.


Once a week? lol I visit it every freakin half hour. I *need* this mouse.


----------



## resis

Checking ESreality and OCN pretty much every time I start up my computer.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> I *need* this mouse.


Pretty much this.


----------



## Scorpion667

take.
my.
money.

"Before Christmas"


----------



## rmp459

been lurking since you started that esr thread last year. i think i speak for many of us when I say were "patiently waiting"









In the meantime I need to find a new DPI to get used to. Not sure if 900 on the kinzuadder is really going to cut it anymore with modern resolutions and multi-monitors.

I have a feeling I'm going to be stocking up on these when they are release for work/home/spares/etc.


----------



## Limniscate

Is there any way we'll be able to get the Aurora shell with the 3050 sensor? I think I'd prefer it to the 3090.


----------



## bst

Theres not much I can say atm, I'm pretty much just patiently waiting like everyone else.

I have a 3090 version here but I can only use it at 1600 DPI atm, because the drivers are still being finished, apparently they'll be ready at the end of this week. I can't really test it properly until I get them. But so far the 3090 version has been really nice, it gets just over 4m/s at 1600 DPI and the tracking quality is fine. The LOD is slightly lower than the 3050 version, by about .5mm or so (basically not much in it, I prefer it though). Also the middle mouse button switch is easier to press on it which is something I asked for, I hope the rest of the samples are the same.

Limniscate: No plans to put the 3050 sensor in the Aurora shell atm, maybe one day if its a popular request. Btw why do you think you'd prefer the 3050 sensor?

I will see about setting up a mailing list


----------



## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Theres not much I can say atm, I'm pretty much just patiently waiting like everyone else.
> I have a 3090 version here but I can only use it at 1600 DPI atm, because the drivers are still being finished, apparently they'll be ready at the end of this week. I can't really test it properly until I get them. But so far the 3090 version has been really nice, it gets just over 4m/s at 1600 DPI and the tracking quality is fine. The LOD is slightly lower than the 3050 version, by about .5mm or so (basically not much in it, I prefer it though). Also the middle mouse button switch is easier to press on it which is something I asked for, I hope the rest of the samples are the same.
> Limniscate: No plans to put the 3050 sensor in the Aurora shell atm, maybe one day if its a popular request. Btw why do you think you'd prefer the 3050 sensor?
> I will see about setting up a mailing list


I won't use above 2000 dpi anyway, and there are more native DPI steps on the 3050. I don't want to use interpolated 1000 dpi or 1200 on the 3090.


----------



## Scorpion667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I will see about setting up a mailing list


Please do!

I can't believe how much hype there is already around this mouse, I've seen it mentioned on other forums as well.


----------



## Rjven

I might be completely dreaming, but would it be possible to have an inbuilt quake live kind of accel through the drivers?
I mean, so that you can configure everything through the drivers, like mouseacceloffset, mousesensecap etc.

The idea is that you can get the same accel on all games! Only reason i don't use accel in QL is that I can't sync it to other games, or it's extremely hard to do.


----------



## Axaion

Oh god i hope not, if at all possible id like him to take the zowie approach when it comes to drivers and crapware that being none.


----------



## Gabriel Ruan

Ah, yes. This way, you could cycle through cl_mouseAccel, cl_mouseAccelOffset, cl_mouseAccelPower and cl_mouseSensCap whilst depressing mouse1, 2 and 3 or 4: altering the values with the mouse wheel.

Now, that wouldn't be awkward at all.


----------



## detto87

Hey bst, nice to see things are progressing.
I'm sorry if this has been asked before but I couldn't find any answer yet,.. I noticed in the description on ESR the following: "Top part of the shell: Either rubber coated or glossy".
Is it in any way possible to make that glossy a white version, just like Zowie does with their mice? (black rubber and white gloss)
I really dig a glossy version because of grip but really hate the smudgy black gloss that many TVs and other components are already plagued with.
White would be some nice touch too as not many mice offer this (I'd really dig the white version bcoz of it's color too).


----------



## Axaion

Think you misunderstood my post, i meant it as in, i hope he wont even add that option altogether
imo all a mouse really needs is, shape and performance. (tracking quality, max ips, no correction, lowish LoD (under 2mm would be nice.)

All the extra that you can do yourself with ingame commands is just.. no please god no, it just reminds me of razer naga, and keyboards with 82 macro keys for people who dont know how to use shift modifiers

sorry for the rant







)


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Think you misunderstood my post, i meant it as in, i hope he wont even add that option altogether
> imo all a mouse really needs is, shape and performance. (tracking quality, max ips, no correction, lowish LoD (under 2mm would be nice.)
> All the extra that you can do yourself with ingame commands is just.. no please god no, it just reminds me of razer naga, and keyboards with 82 macro keys for people who dont know how to use shift modifiers
> sorry for the rant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


Why not add them in if possible? It's what will give his product a competitive edge for Quake players. For people who won't use it, they won't have to install the drivers. This "no drivers required" feature is identical to say a G400 or deathadder (pre-synapse); i.e set the configuration then uinstall - settings saved to onboard memory.

"All the extra that you can do yourself with ingame commands"
-Except not everyone plays quake.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Why not add them in if possible? It's what will give his product a competitive edge for Quake players. For people who won't use it, they won't have to install the drivers. This "no drivers required" feature is identical to say a G400 or deathadder (pre-synapse); i.e set the configuration then uinstall - settings saved to onboard memory.
> "All the extra that you can do yourself with ingame commands"
> -Except not everyone plays quake.


Just my personal opinion is all, but as long as there will be no need at all for the drivers, sure go ahead with it i guess, id just like him to focus on shape and performance mainly


----------



## Rjven

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gabriel Ruan*
> 
> Ah, yes. This way, you could cycle through cl_mouseAccel, cl_mouseAccelOffset, cl_mouseAccelPower and cl_mouseSensCap whilst depressing mouse1, 2 and 3 or 4: altering the values with the mouse wheel.
> Now, that wouldn't be awkward at all.


I said through the drivers...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> Just my personal opinion is all, but as long as there will be no need at all for the drivers, sure go ahead with it i guess, id just like him to focus on shape and performance mainly


There is nothing wrong with drivers. Besides, you don't HAVE to install them








And don't worry, I'm sure Bst puts a LOT of effort in performances and shape


----------



## Jcyle

What you guys think of the G600 vs Naga on guild wars 2? Note I've never used a MMORPG gaming mouse


----------



## Gabriel Ruan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rjven*
> 
> I said through the drivers...


I was mocking the individual that suggested the mouse go without drivers.


----------



## Rjven

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gabriel Ruan*
> 
> I was mocking the individual that suggested the mouse go without drivers.


My apologies then.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gabriel Ruan*
> 
> I was mocking the individual that suggested the mouse go without drivers.


you might not want to post outright that you were, some people can take great offense from that, it's alright though, since you didnt even understand the post yourself


----------



## popups

Any new time line for the release? I am looking at buying a new mouse soon. Maybe a Zowie.


----------



## Limniscate

Any updates on the Aurora beta samples?


----------



## Yahar

any news? Been a while.. When are the beta samples of aurora sent to testers?


----------



## resis

Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells... wait, not quite yet.


----------



## Skar

Doesnt look as if they make it this year. (If not yet produced.)


----------



## Genub

the only reason i havent gotten a second 3.0 is because this mouse.. and my 3.0 has broken scroll wheel!!


----------



## robkez313

I had MS ie 3.0, it was good for CS because had no prediction. It double clicks after a year of use and scroll wheel is crap.
Had mx518, it was more smooth then ie 3.0, but had prediction, so not as good for CS. Had it for like 5 years, never break.

Now I bought g400. It is best mouse i have owned.
Was picking between g400 and DA, but choosed g400, because it is cheaper, i am used to the shape of my mx518, and i read some bad reviews about DA fast breaking and double clicking.


----------



## resis

Hey BST, hope things go well. Keep us informed if there are new developments.

I really love my Diamondback, but it has some flaws and each time they show up I think about that Ninox Aurora mouse. I long for a mouse that allows me to forget I'm using one (as in not noticing annoying flaws). Not like I expect Aurora to be perfect, I'm prepared for disappointments, but if it's like 70% good and 30% bad, than I'm happy.


----------



## mousefan

Yeah BST bringt it. I found it ugly at the first look, but it probably goes in the direction of a 1.1 so I would surely give it a try and buy it so soon it's out, would test it, and if it's good I would order one, two or three more for sure.

I am mousefreak you know and just looking for THE Mouse as a lefthander with avarage big Hands since Years. ^^

I got my Intellis and they are strong, but not nearly perfect in some Points.

I mean I can do everything needed with them in Counter Strike, but so better the equipment, so better the days or something like that. lol


----------



## bst

Hi,
I posted a little update on ESR: http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2327521
Sorry its not much.

About the Q3/QL style accel - I used moudrv for a long time a while back, so I know basically how it works (and what stops it from working properly), and its pretty much a project by itself. To make it a finished product which works well (and easily) for everyone, and is compatible with different games is a challenge. I do really want to do it (for myself as well







), but at the moment its too much to take on. I have some ideas though, on how to make it more automated and easy to use. When the time comes I know some people who understand it very well, so hopefully they'll assist me in making it into something that everyone wants it to be.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *robkez313*
> 
> I had MS ie 3.0, it was good for CS because had no prediction. It double clicks after a year of use and scroll wheel is crap.
> Had mx518, it was more smooth then ie 3.0, but had prediction, so not as good for CS. Had it for like 5 years, never break.
> Now I bought g400. It is best mouse i have owned.
> Was picking between g400 and DA, but choosed g400, because it is cheaper, i am used to the shape of my mx518, and i read some bad reviews about DA fast breaking and double clicking.


I use the same switches in the mice as the G400 - Omron D2FC-F-7N(10M), Although the MX518/DA/IE3.0 use the 5M versions (half the rated lifespan of the 10Ms).

As you've seen, the 5M versions can last for years, but some can fail within a year, even if you treat them exactly the same with regards to how often and forcefully you press them.

One of the reasons is simply because even though a switch is rated to X million clicks, its just a rough guide, the rating process isn't as perfect as, for example, jet engine fins. But this isn't the only reason why some mice switches fail sooner than others.

In the graph below, you can see the overtravel can drastically affect the lifespan of a switch:


The Aurora and Velocity are designed so that they don't allow the switches to be fully pressed, they only go past the operating point as far as necessary. If you press a button on a mouse, then release it, the switch should disengage instantly. If you can move the mouse button up and down (a "mushy" feeling) while the switch is engaged, then it means the shell is pressing down past the operating point further than it needs to, which will lower the lifespan of the switch and make rapid clicking more difficult.

That doesn't mean to say the problem can be avoided 100% though, there are tolerances involved, so that means you can centre on a lower overtravel, but like darts, its hard to hit the bullseye every time, some will stray away, all you can do is improve the odds that it doesn't stray too far. Using a high quality factory also helps, as the tolerances will be lower, due to better materials/machinery/operators.


----------



## karod

Quote:


> The Aurora and Velocity are designed so that they don't allow the switches to be fully pressed, they only go past the operating point as far as necessary.


#

And that's the again a good example that your product is thoroughly developed, and why it can be successful.


----------



## Rjven

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Hi,
> I posted a little update on ESR: http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2327521
> Sorry its not much.
> About the Q3/QL style accel - I used moudrv for a long time a while back, so I know basically how it works (and what stops it from working properly), and its pretty much a project by itself. To make it a finished product which works well (and easily) for everyone, and is compatible with different games is a challenge. I do really want to do it (for myself as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), but at the moment its too much to take on. I have some ideas though, on how to make it more automated and easy to use. When the time comes I know some people who understand it very well, so hopefully they'll assist me in making it into something that everyone wants it to be.


I am so glad you're considering this seriously! But I understand you have other priorities now.

Thanks!


----------



## Skar

Overtravel is only one of many factors. The switch will still very likely go EOS before anywhere near 5, 10 or 20M.

One of the main reasons some switches seem to last "forever" (as in "i use my logitech for xy years!") is a low internal polling of the switch which is not as sensitive to the bouncy signal if the switch closes in on his end of service.


----------



## bst

Ahhh that makes sense, thanks Skar, don't think I could have found that out anywhere else, Omron doesn't mention it anywhere, it seems, I looked through a lot of their guides and warnings.

Hmm, I guess nothing much can really be done about it, then


----------



## v4mp1

Well then i have to solder in d2f-01f switches, i dont like the feedback and feel of D2FC-F-7N switches.

Edit: I even like TTC switches more when it comes to the feedback.


----------



## Phos

Would it be possible to have the switches attacked via terminals or the like, similar to how the TE arcade sticks work? That would make the switches easier to replace.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karod*
> 
> #
> And that's the again a good example that your product is thoroughly developed, and why it can be successful.


50% this, the other 50% are good marketing. BST should consider to invest enough into advertising, or he wont get enough revenue out of it, even if his product is extraordinarily good. Business is a b*tch. You don't win it by just making good products alone.


----------



## popups

If he brings to market a mouse that is lighter, more comfortable and performs as good or better than the Deathadder -- word of mouth will do the selling/marketing more than you think.

I have been waiting like a year for this mouse. I just hope it doesn't go the way the Steel Series optical mice did.


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> If he brings to market a mouse that is lighter, more comfortable and performs as good or better than the Deathadder -- word of mouth will do the selling/marketing more than you think.
> I have been waiting like a year for this mouse. I just hope it doesn't go the way the Steel Series optical mice did.


I think anything is more comfortable than a deathadder.. lol


----------



## Tazzzz

Sometimes comfortable doesn't mean effective in games ..


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rmp459*
> 
> I think anything is more comfortable than a deathadder.. lol


True.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tazzzz*
> 
> Sometimes comfortable doesn't mean effective in games ..


Even my Diamondback, that I got in like 2003/2004, is more comfortable than the Deathadder. At the time I didn't think it was until I started using the DA. I thought the top was too wide, the bottom too narrow and I don't like the side buttons' shape or location. But I can be very accurate with the DB side to side which is extremely hard to do with the DA because of how it sits in my hand. The shape of the DA creates a cant (if that is the right word) from left to right.

I tried to change the way I hold the DA but I just cannot make a straight horizontal line. That just isn't acceptable for FPS. Which is why I am considering a Zowie even though it doesn't perform as well. Maybe I could swap the lens in the Zowie and use tape instead for the LOD.

The Aurora's shell looks like an improved Diamondback shape. Although it doesn't have any side indents to aid your grasp and the side buttons are pretty much the same as the Diamondback unfortunately. For me the side buttons on the Deathadder are the only thing I really like when it comes to the shell. When BST is successful with the mice he could improve the shells' shape a little, add better side buttons and putt them on both sides (for left handers).

*BST I think the Velocity's shell should have the letters going vertical instead of the current mock up.*


----------



## karod

Shape is all about personal preference, it is very subjective


----------



## Phos

I'm the same way with the death adder, it seems as though it wants to rest at an angle in my hand. I think it's because of the big buldge behind the thumb area. The EC1 has it too, just not as much.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karod*
> 
> Shape is all about personal preference, it is very subjective


I would say that shape isn't but your preferred grip is. We are humans -- our hands are the same, just differ in size.

The problem is when a company tries to have a product (using one mold to save money) that fits everyone instead of catering it to certain group. Glock for instance. That is why I like shooting a CZ-75 because it is made to fit a humans hand instead of some mythical one size fits all compromised design.


----------



## Limniscate

I also prefer the CZ-75 to the Glock.


----------



## glockateer

I'm a one size fits all kind of guy.


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tazzzz*
> 
> Sometimes comfortable doesn't mean effective in games ..


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> I'm the same way with the death adder, it seems as though it wants to rest at an angle in my hand. I think it's because of the big buldge behind the thumb area. The EC1 has it too, just not as much.


Yea I just find the DA really clumsy for games. I tried it for a month or two back when it was just the 1800dpi version and never really adjusted... so that was that.


----------



## Tazzzz

As for me presently what i could see from the pictures I find the shape of aurora mouse really good. May be the deepening on the main buttons are not needed but that's not a major factor.
This should be a great mouse for pro gamers. Yea it doesn't look so sexy as sensei raw and won't have its commerсial success but SS spend so much money on advertising and sponsorship so f.ck them


----------



## Sylon

Mouse is all personal preference, no company will ever produce a mouse that makes everyone or even the majority of people happy.

I have a Deathadder, G9X, and a Naga. They all have their advantages, but the DA grip fits my big hands much better overall.


----------



## Tazzzz

There are like 100 popular mice from major companies and none of them make me happy







A lot of them make me sad. And with a few of them i can just play despite of their cons.


----------



## resis

I'd like this shape, please.


----------



## Tazzzz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I'd like this shape, please.


It's too gud, if its released noone ever buys another mouse


----------



## glockateer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I'd like this shape, please.


http://www.amazon.com/Razer-RZ01-00520100-R3U1-TRON-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B004CJ8YQM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350448498&sr=8-1&keywords=tron+gaming+mouse


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I'd like this shape, please.


Wow from the photo I can really see why you like it


----------



## popups

What the magnification you are using for the lens, BST?

Anyone know if the DeathAdder uses 1.0x or 1.15x? The Zowie uses like 1.28x?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What the magnification you are using for the lens, BST?
> Anyone know if the DeathAdder uses 1.0x or 1.15x? The Zowie uses like 1.28x?


Standard Avago spec is 1.0x. This will be the case with the majority of A3060+ mice unless a factory can produce copies/alternative solutions to cut corners/save money. The 3050 sensor uses 4:5 magnification or .80x Again, same case.

Zowie's 3rd party lens is 1.25x, though placement is likely lower than average. Logitech also utilizes a 3rd party lens, but magnification is 1.0x instead of the factory spec model chosen by Zowie.

tl;dr. You don't have to worry about lens magnification in most cases for these particular sensors.


----------



## Phos

I thought more magnification led to more CPI, but don't Zowie's mice have less? Like the 1800 setting results in 1150? Or have I been eating crazy pills?


----------



## Yahar

I think zowie's 2300 dpi = A3090 with old SROM 1.0x, 1800 dpi. 1150 = 900, 450 = ?!?

This is funny because 2300/1800 = 1.277777777777777777778, meaning zowie's dpi steps are a bit flawed. Or that the lens mangification is not 1.25x? Is the 2300 dpi step actually 1.25x 1800 = 2250? the dpi 1150 dpi step 1.25x900 = 1125? I have no idea what is 450 dpi step on zowie.
450/1.2777777 ~ 352 and I don't think that's even a real dpi value on the older A3090 SROM. I wonder how much dpi, the 450 dpi step really is?

Or maybe i've misunderstood lol. Sorry if I mixed up something.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What the magnification you are using for the lens, BST?


1x (standard lens)


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> I think zowie's 2300 dpi = A3090 with old SROM 1.0x, 1800 dpi. 1150 = 900, 450 = ?!?
> This is funny because 2300/1800 = 1.277777777777777777778, meaning zowie's dpi steps are a bit flawed. Or that the lens mangification is not 1.25x? Is the 2300 dpi step actually 1.25x 1800 = 2250? the dpi 1150 dpi step 1.25x900 = 1125? I have no idea what is 450 dpi step on zowie.
> 450/1.2777777 ~ 352 and I don't think that's even a real dpi value on the older A3090 SROM. I wonder how much dpi, the 450 dpi step really is?
> Or maybe i've misunderstood lol. Sorry if I mixed up something.


Placement Height. Can be +/- The lens value is 1.25x The values they got were likely logged by factory on one specific type of surface.... DPI will vary regardless due to multiple reasons.

Native CPI value is 1800 (2300) and we have basic .5 interpolation going on with the middle step. (1150).

I believe the lower step is 1800/5 or 360. Should make it 460 DPI when all is said and done. Suppose 450 does look better for marketing if that wasn't just a miscalculation on their part. Uneven interpolation regardless..


----------



## Yahar

Do you mean on the sheet zowie should have listed their dpi as 460,1150,2300? Because 360 x 1.277 = 460. 1800/2 x1.277 = 1150. 1800 x 1.277 = 2300. While the real dpi values are 450, 1125, 2250 on 1.25x A3090, but due to zowie's sensor placement height on a specific testing surface it adds a little bit thus the 460,1150,2300 and zowie made mistake/marketing decision calling 460 step 450 instead?

thanks Skylit!


----------



## Skylit

Yes. actually funny cus 360 x 1.25 = 450^^ Values based on lens should be 450/1125/2250. DPI in general will vary between different mice +/- due to multiple circumstances such as surface, placement, LED, ROM... etc..

With the old EC, it was easier to figure out due to 400 and 1600 native ROM values.. well hacked at least









500 (400) + 2000 (1600) DPI. Middle 1000 DPI step interpolated from 2000.


----------



## Yahar

Yeah that is really funny lol. That clears it up, thanks Skylit!

I really want to get rid of this Zowie AM. Hurry up bst!


----------



## popups

How do you know for certain that the Zowie uses a 1.25x and not 1.28x? I guess if someone has a Zowie they could measure the height of the lens or contact the factory (unlikely) to get the numbers. Would using the 1.0x bring the performance of the Zowie up to that of the DeathAdder just with different CPI?

Would it be better to use the 1.15x lens on the 3090 with the new 4000 CPI version instead of the suggested 1.0x? Have the standard 2.4mm lens height with 0.5mm mouse feet to reduce LOD and path deviation.

The DeathAdder has a LOD of 3.7-3.8mm on an all black cloth mouse pad, on a darker red glass coated it has a LOD of 2.7-2.8mm. If the Aurora is similar in performance/measurements the 0.5mm mouse feet would make the LOD on black under 3 CDs and on red under 2 CDs. With the 1.15x lens it could be lower and bring the CPI closer to certain screen resolutions. With a small amount of decreased perfect control speed.

For me a LOD of 2.8mm is a little to high. When I lift and reposition the mouse it "stutters" the cursor. The general gamer wouldn't notice but it is obvious to me. I think I would be content with 2.2mm LOD with 0.5mm mouse feet on a non black mouse pad and 2.7mm on black with 1mm feet. Another benefit would be the bottom of the mouse would never touch the mouse pad in most circumstances like the DeathAdder did/does. But the feet would need to be tapered or have a diamond plate like surface (if adding thickness that way works).


----------



## Anhedonique

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Yeah that is really funny lol. That clears it up, thanks Skylit!
> I really want to get rid of this Zowie AM. Hurry up bst!


Last update states before Christmas, roughly 2 months to go.
Let's hope bst can make it in time, I'm quite confident with g400 right now, but I have a soft spot for testing new mice.


----------



## popups

I have strong doubts the 3090 will be out by Christmas. Isn't only the 3050 being beta tested? Money issues, production time and shipping time from Asia means it will be awhile before you can get it. That doesn't account for potential changes which can push back the release a few more months.

I wonder if BST has decided on the specifications for the: lens height, lens magnification, mouse feet thickness, CPI steps for certain screen resolutions and tailored performance to certain mouse pads. In other words, does he have a design goal other than high perfect control speed. For instance, from what I know, Zowie's design goal was low LOD for low sensitivity players.

To me, it looks like BST is going by a single general prototype from Avago's sample kit via the OEM, beta test that, then make changes based on feedback. Probably be faster and easier to have two prototypes, with different specifications, per sensor to beta test.

Maybe a prototype shell that has a lower lens height and a set of various mouse feet heights for the tester to change the lens height during testing. Also provide the tester with the 3 lens magnifications that Avago has suggested so the tester can swap them out while testing the lens on different pads. Then he could do changes to the srom/firmware.

Or like the other companies you could follow Avago's suggestions but mess up the programming and still sell it as a serious gaming mouse.


----------



## Yahar

Popups. Suggested sensor magnification is 1x, and changing that will degrade performance as we saw with Zowie AM for example. There is such thing as too low LOD again with Zowie AM. The current CPI Values on the A3090 Aurora will be enough even for the biggest multi screen setups.

Everything has been decided iirc.

I dont tinkering with lens magnification is a good idea. Will earn nothing but degraded performance and different CPI values. It may lower LOD but AM's LOD is too low imo. Best to go with default setup and Avago's suggestion. Also you don't want Interpolated CPI steps like on Zowie AM.


----------



## popups

Yahar you made my point. Everything seems like a standard Avago setup without any design goals other than that. The 1.2mm feet indicates a want to lower lift off distance on black pads -- no thought about degraded performance of different colour pads and surfaces.

I know the increase in the lens magnification will reduce total MPS, but if you have a high enough MPS you could use the 1.15x to reduce LOD and bring the CPI closer to the screen resolutions people use. CPI of 460 and 920 compared to 400 and 800. Also wouldn't the higher magnification aid tracking on certain textures?

I am just putting it all out there before BST makes up his mind and starts production. Isn't this similar to the SteelSeries situation that happened here...? Hope it turns out better.


----------



## Skylit

.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> How do you know for certain that the Zowie uses a 1.25x and not 1.28x? I guess if someone has a Zowie they could measure the height of the lens or contact the factory (unlikely) to get the numbers. Would using the 1.0x bring the performance of the Zowie up to that of the DeathAdder just with different CPI?
> Would it be better to use the 1.15x lens on the 3090 with the new 4000 CPI version instead of the suggested 1.0x? Have the standard 2.4mm lens height with 0.5mm mouse feet to reduce LOD and path deviation.
> The DeathAdder has a LOD of 3.7-3.8mm on an all black cloth mouse pad, on a darker red glass coated it has a LOD of 2.7-2.8mm. If the Aurora is similar in performance/measurements the 0.5mm mouse feet would make the LOD on black under 3 CDs and on red under 2 CDs. With the 1.15x lens it could be lower and bring the CPI closer to certain screen resolutions. With a small amount of decreased perfect control speed.
> For me a LOD of 2.8mm is a little to high. When I lift and reposition the mouse it "stutters" the cursor. The general gamer wouldn't notice but it is obvious to me. I think I would be content with 2.2mm LOD with 0.5mm mouse feet on a non black mouse pad and 2.7mm on black with 1mm feet. Another benefit would be the bottom of the mouse would never touch the mouse pad in most circumstances like the DeathAdder did/does. But the feet would need to be tapered or have a diamond plate like surface (if adding thickness that way works).


Because it wouldn't make sense nor economical to produce such an odd number after you've already had a factory established model produced and used over and over again since early days of gaming mice. Placement can be modified even with the official spec'd model if desired so. There are many mice of the same architecture producing anywhere from 750-850 DPI on an 800 DPI registry. Other than resolution magnification, the only thing Zowie had added was a sort of plastic to block angles effectively lowering lift off.

Well, such a lens would have to be in production by a specific factory, tho all custom solutions tend to distort the natural quality or fidelity of the sensor. Even with Logitech, we have a bit of distortion on the 3600 registry, granted the lens was originally designed for 800 DPI back in the early 2000s. (Though Angle snapping helped conceal things like ripple previously). It's only now after Avago released an angle snapping free SROM, that these issues are more and more apparent and is why using a custom solution hurts more than does good. (Again, more of a non issue since custom solutions aren't common among established brands. I'd only be wary of Avago fakes used in "knock off" mice.

The Deathadders lift off will vary from mouse to mouse. It's not set in stone since there are other tolerances to worry about, though you're right, most of them are over 3.5mm~ on BLACK cloth surfaces.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Yahar you made my point. Everything seems like a standard Avago setup without any design goals other than that. The 1.2mm feet indicates a want to lower lift off distance on black pads -- no thought about degraded performance of different colour pads and surfaces.
> I know the increase in the lens magnification will reduce total MPS, but if you have a high enough MPS you could use the 1.15x to reduce LOD and bring the CPI closer to the screen resolutions people use. CPI of 460 and 920 compared to 400 and 800. Also wouldn't the higher magnification aid tracking on certain textures?
> I am just putting it all out there before BST makes up his mind and starts production. Isn't this similar to the SteelSeries situation that happened here...? Hope it turns out better.


Higher Magnification doesn't decrease lift off detection. BST seems fine in terms of basic package layout~

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I have strong doubts the 3090 will be out by Christmas. Isn't only the 3050 being beta tested? Money issues, production time and shipping time from Asia means it will be awhile before you can get it. That doesn't account for potential changes which can push back the release a few more months.
> I wonder if BST has decided on the specifications for the: lens height, lens magnification, mouse feet thickness, CPI steps for certain screen resolutions and tailored performance to certain mouse pads. In other words, does he have a design goal other than high perfect control speed. For instance, from what I know, Zowie's design goal was low LOD for low sensitivity players.
> To me, it looks like BST is going by a single general prototype from Avago's sample kit via the OEM, beta test that, then make changes based on feedback. Probably be faster and easier to have two prototypes, with different specifications, per sensor to beta test.
> Maybe a prototype shell that has a lower lens height and a set of various mouse feet heights for the tester to change the lens height during testing. Also provide the tester with the 3 lens magnifications that Avago has suggested so the tester can swap them out while testing the lens on different pads. Then he could do changes to the srom/firmware.
> Or like the other companies you could follow Avago's suggestions but mess up the programming and still sell it as a serious gaming mouse.


Doubt BST or Zowie cared or were worried bout the little things. The lower placement of zowie mice was likely due to the original issue they ran into on the first EC series. (Mouse would track again if lifted over a certain height IE: Low lift off> Cut tracking> track.). Magnification don't matter in terms of lift off. (Rather then lens design itself, as well as many other things).

Avago only supports *one* 1.0x spec'd model for the 3060, 3080, 3090 and custom variations.


----------



## glockateer

1.0x manufacturer spec'd lens will certainly produce the best quality. I couldn't stand the spawn for its LED/lens combo since it limits my personal ability from cursor quality/angle snapping. Even interpolated mice steps bother the hell out of me. My world was stuck with the intellimouse (still the best raw tracking there is) but the roccat savu showed me that when the correct parts and firmware come together in native steps that it can rival the legend. Due to the savu and the BST beta Velocity, I have a lot of faith in the Aurora since it doesn't sacrifice or take risks in that regard. I've been using this velocity since I got it.









Also, I didn't want to pick on a mouse in particular. The spawn is good in many regards but I rely on purity of tracking or I lose my mind.


----------



## v4mp1

Quote:


> Mouse feet:
> - PureTrak PerfectGlide | HD
> -- 100% Teflon Material
> -- Provides Fastest Glide Available
> -- 1.2mm Thickness for Greater Life Expectancy
> -- Powerful 3M Backing Glue


-- Provides Fastest Glide Available <- LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL


----------



## viowastaken

BST:
I have some humble advice to you, as someone who will check overclock.net/esreality at least once a week to find updates.

I'm not in the majority of your customers. Despite all the hardcore people who follow this mouse's every step, most of your sales will come from people who are less enthusiastic, and are just tipped about the mouse by others.

You *REALLY* need to set up some mailing list on your website where people can sign up for notifications on the release of this thing. Most will not be patient enough to make an effort to keep up with progress.


----------



## splinterize

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> -- Provides Fastest Glide Available <- LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL


What's wrong with puretrak HDs?


----------



## Phos

He might be thinking of perfect glides.


----------



## v4mp1

Their glide is the worst of all glides i ever had and i had 10+ different brands.


----------



## MikeRELI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> Their glide is the worst of all glides i ever had and i had 10+ different brands.


ya this is exaggerated..... there are stacks on stacks of reviews from a lot of members on here who all say the HD's are good glides especially for how long they last. this include myself.

heres a couple

http://www.overclock.net/t/1321861/puretrak-hd-mousefeet-thoughts-and-pictures
http://www.overclock.net/t/1241739/puretrak-perfectglide-hd-review-for-steelseries-xai-r-u-s-e-56k

you gotta understand, they're double the thickness and DO have to be broken in cuz they're so thick. downside? no... more like side effect to never having to change your skates again cause of how long they last. mine broke in in less than a week and are just as fast as the hyperglides i had on my deathadder.

but hey, to each his own...... i personally hope bst keeps them on his. i know puretrak makes a lot of skates for other companies and its cool hes able to get his own custom edition but in the grand scheme the skates are a small part of these mice. can't wait!


----------



## hfcobra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MikeRELI*
> 
> ya this is exaggerated..... there are stacks on stacks of reviews from a lot of members on here who all say the HD's are good glides especially for how long they last. this include myself.
> heres a couple
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1321861/puretrak-hd-mousefeet-thoughts-and-pictures
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1241739/puretrak-perfectglide-hd-review-for-steelseries-xai-r-u-s-e-56k
> you gotta understand, they're double the thickness and DO have to be broken in cuz they're so thick. downside? no... more like side effect to never having to change your skates again cause of how long they last. mine broke in in less than a week and are just as fast as the hyperglides i had on my deathadder.
> but hey, to each his own...... i personally hope bst keeps them on his. i know puretrak makes a lot of skates for other companies and its cool hes able to get his own custom edition but in the grand scheme the skates are a small part of these mice. can't wait!


I agree. Even if you don't like them then just take them off and buy the skates you like. Hyperglides will most likely be made for this mouse if it is popular enough as well.


----------



## Yahar

v4mp1 thinking about Perfect Glides? Those didn't have very great glide. But HD's are entirely different product and the glide should be faster.


----------



## v4mp1

No i had the HD.


----------



## splinterize

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> No i had the HD.


It's called a placebo.


----------



## v4mp1

Ahmmmmmm nope!


----------



## Vikhr

He probably thinks that they're slower due to the sharp edges.

I personally couldn't make them feel smooth after rounding the edges with my nails and using them on a multitude of pads for a week.


----------



## Yahar

How did the Aurora work on multi colored/red surfaces? Does it have any problem on them like Zowie AM?


----------



## popups

I don't know the formulas used with the manufacturing of this material. I doubt there is any difference between the companies that sell mouse feet as they probably get it from the same place.

The end product is more likely affected by the method the reseller uses to cut and prepare the surface. Rounding the edges or not makes a huge difference in the friction. Also buffing the surface will give a smoother feel when you first use the feet.

The BST beta mouse looks to have Intellimouse feet. If they are in fact the same dimensions then you can use feet intended for those mice. Which would be a smart thing to do by the manufacturer of BST's mice.

There is a downside with using that type of feet shape, when you use taller feet you will have an issue with catching. When I used a mouse with feet like that: when I reached the edge on my pad the feet would go off the ledge, as I went back to the other direction the feet would catch on the pad. There has been times the feet actually came off because of that. The prototype BST shows would make that issue worse, because the feet are more vertical, unlike the Intellimouse. At least the top feet that is.

After using the Zowie it has changed my opinion a little on mouse feet. In theory larger feet would cause more friction than smaller ones. So I would prefer smaller feet, but having the smaller feet catch the edge of the pad is more a problem than total friction. Using the Zowie in the same situation when I went off the edge of the pad the shape of the feet obviously didn't allow them to get caught. In addition the feet's shape allowed me to use more of the pad.

For perspective compare that to the Deathadder. The bottom foot is shaped ok but the top feet are small. When you go off the pad the bottom foot doesn't catch much if at all, but the top feet do if you have taller feet than the stock dimensions.


----------



## eXecuution

I'm hoping this can be a replacement to my deathadder.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vikhr*
> 
> He probably thinks that they're slower due to the sharp edges.
> I personally couldn't make them feel smooth after rounding the edges with my nails and using them on a multitude of pads for a week.


I used the file on a pair of nail clippers and it smoothed them down pretty well.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> In theory larger feet would cause more friction than smaller ones.


This may apply to hard pads, but not to cloth pads with a foam underneath, where bigger feet distribute the weight better than small ones.


----------



## Vikhr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> This may apply to hard pads, but not to cloth pads with a foam underneath, where bigger feet distribute the weight better than small ones.


Also depends on the surface as well, I find mice with larger feet glide better on textured pads like the Goliathus Control, Hien, etc.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> This may apply to hard pads, but not to cloth pads with a foam underneath, where bigger feet distribute the weight better than small ones.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vikhr*
> 
> Also depends on the surface as well, I find mice with larger feet glide better on textured pads like the Goliathus Control, Hien, etc.


Well that depends on the foam, the mouse weight and the pressure you apply to the mouse during use. If you use a pad with cheap foam and you scrub your mouse pad with the mouse this is the case.

Larger feet do not glide better than smaller feet on cloth, it depends on their shape/surface and the height. Chances are, when you use mice with smaller feet, you apply enough pressure to bottom out the mouse on the pad increasing the friction. Additionally thicker smaller feet will sink in differently than the larger feet giving you a different feel.

Since I palm the mouse and don't put pressure on it. I do not have that issue. With larger feet I do have the issue with dust/crumbs causing more friction as the mouse feet take longer to pass over it.


----------



## woll3

Subjective Topic is subjective.


----------



## popups

Subjective or objective. What we are discussing is not subjective.

Mouse feet, lift off distance and CPI are not a subjective discussions. People may have a preference for certain parameters, but performance is unarguable.


----------



## MikeRELI

can't put CPI, lift off distance and sensors in the same category as mouse skates. like everyone has said before, you're able to CHANGE the skates. can you change the sensors? nope. lift off distance? nope. CPI? nope... not without bst. skates? yes. $10 and poof... new feel. so yes, it's SUBJECTIVE.


----------



## ZareliMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MikeRELI*
> 
> can't put CPI, lift off distance and sensors in the same category as mouse skates. like everyone has said before, you're able to CHANGE the skates. can you change the sensors? nope. lift off distance? nope. CPI? nope... not without bst. skates? yes. $10 and poof... new feel. so yes, it's SUBJECTIVE.


Skates affect LOD. And you can tape-mod your sensor to reduce LOD too.
BTW you can change skates, but you'll have to stick with the shape and design of them, unless you are willing to sandpaper the bottom or something, or mousetape it.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MikeRELI*
> 
> can't put CPI, lift off distance and sensors in the same category as mouse skates. like everyone has said before, you're able to CHANGE the skates. can you change the sensors? nope. lift off distance? nope. CPI? nope... not without bst. skates? yes. $10 and poof... new feel. so yes, it's SUBJECTIVE.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZareliMan*
> 
> Skates affect LOD. And you can tape-mod your sensor to reduce LOD too.
> BTW you can change skates, *but you'll have to stick with the shape and design* of them, unless you are willing to sandpaper the bottom or something, or mousetape it.


The mouse feet affect the sensors' performance. So that is not subjective. How do they [mouse feet] affect the sensor? That has to do with their height. The taller they are the further the sensor is from the surface. Depending on the color and the material the sensor will perform either better or worse. Obviously it is the same for shorter feet.

So when you are designing a mouse you have to keep in mind the mouse feet because the shell will need to be made a certain way for a certain sensor height. Do you have the sensor sit lower so you can use taller feet or do you raise it? If the sensor is sitting high you will be stuck with a certain thickness for the feet. That can dictate the overall glide of the mouse and its performance. So it isn't just, "hey you can buy different feet!"

That isn't including how much of the feet should be inset into the shell or where the screws will go considering the feet's shape and size.

That is what I was referring to when I said that mouse feet are not subjective.


----------



## Thunderbringer

I see it rather calmly, first get your favorite material. Second get a punch. Example (abyssus feet in this case. works with any thickness i have tried). In my experience those are almost universal.


----------



## popups

@ThunderBringer

I have no idea what I'm looking at there. You seem to hack things up and stick them to other mice.

I'm not arguing about any one thing. Just making a statement and explaining in more detail (as it is a forum) for those that may not understand.


----------



## Thunderbringer

My last post refers to mouse feet. With a hole puncher in a larger number, quite easy to produce. Since they are small, they are also compatible with many mice (no need for sanding the bottom).


----------



## nsKb

1. Buy PTFE tape of desired thickness
2. Cut into shape of original feet
3. Attach to bottom of mouse


----------



## detto87

Hey, any news on this? Still looks like the best option for me and waiting much longer isn't really sth I desire.

bst where are you?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Hey, any news on this? Still looks like the best option for me and waiting much longer isn't really sth I desire.
> bst where are you?


Well he said January next year. Haven't heard of any plans to push it sooner.


----------



## detto87

That's still news for me, haven't followed for some time.









Do you have the link to that quote/source, or: did he say it will be purchaseable in january or just some guessing from his side?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> That's still news for me, haven't followed for some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have the link to that quote/source, or: did he say it will be purchaseable in january or just some guessing from his side?


It was some guessing on his side









He also said pre-ordering may be possible in December

http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2334592


----------



## MikeRELI

i really hate to say this but i doubt we'll see this mouse until june of next year. he still needs to certify it which is minimum 30-60 days, get production going, another 30 days, and then ship everything from the factory to him, another 30 days. assuming nothing goes sour or is delayed, thats end of may early june of next year.


----------



## eXecuution

Great... Though my deathadder isn't bad enough to warrant an immediate switch. I guess I can wait.


----------



## r3d33m3r

so this is basically a community-driven project??
BIG PROPS!


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r3d33m3r*
> 
> so this is basically a community-driven project??
> BIG PROPS!


Not really. It's a company asking the community what they want in a mouse. We don't have any control of what BST does.


----------



## r3d33m3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Not really. It's a company asking the community what they want in a mouse. We don't have any control of what BST does.


aah kk. still great, the pillars of a community know what's best.


----------



## Nivity

Well, in a sence the community have control of what he does since he changed several things based on feedback.

Sure the ultimate say goes to BST, but still like to think the community is behind the mouse, every project needs a "boss" and thats BST


----------



## resis

I fkn' need this mouse!


----------



## Yahar

Indeed sir, I find myself playing less and less due to my flawed mouse currently. I don't feel like buying a placeholder until BST's mouse is released either!


----------



## j6k4

i just hope this mouse wont turn out to be like valor from puretrak
everyone was expecting it to be very good palm grip mouse and it turned out to be flawed

+ what i like about this project is that they are making two models

i hope one will be suitable for claw/fingertip and the other one for palm.

good luck with the project guys and every1 involved in it, if it works out to be as good as they say it will be, i wouldnt even mind paying 40-50 bucks, considering you pay much more for all the crappy mice nowdays.

currently i have a DA black, after i tape fixed it, im loving the anti-sweat grip its amazing, and the sensor does fine without drivers as well.
so im really looking forward to these mice, i hope u develop different types and shapes, like 3 button/5button, righty, lefty,ambidextrous, fingertip/claw, palm etc with anti-sweat grips, low lod, no jitter, no prediction and amazing tracking on most pads









good luck


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *j6k4*
> 
> i just hope this mouse wont turn out to be like valor from puretrak
> everyone was expecting it to be very good palm grip mouse and it turned out to be flawed
> + what i like about this project is that they are making two models
> i hope one will be suitable for claw/fingertip and the other one for palm.
> good luck with the project guys and every1 involved in it, if it works out to be as good as they say it will be, i wouldnt even mind paying 40-50 bucks, considering you pay much more for all the crappy mice nowdays.
> currently i have a DA black, after i tape fixed it, im loving the anti-sweat grip its amazing, and the sensor does fine without drivers as well.
> so im really looking forward to these mice, i hope u develop different types and shapes, like 3 button/5button, righty, lefty,ambidextrous, fingertip/claw, palm etc with anti-sweat grips, low lod, no jitter, no prediction and amazing tracking on most pads
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good luck


They're both small mice.


----------



## Limniscate

I think it's fairly safe to say that it's definitely going to be better than the Valor because people have already beta tested it and said it's good.


----------



## detto87

Well, the long wait made me buy a AM-FG for now first. I heard it has quite a nice surface.
Let's see how that works out.









I'll be getting a bst mouse anyway as soon as it's there of course.


----------



## popups

I was going to buy 4 mice from BST but as you said the wait is to long. So I bought a EC1/2, AM-FG and going to pick up a Deathadder 2013 when the stock comes in.


----------



## resis

Oh no, I managed to kill my Diamondback. Well it works, but I handled the cord badly so it looses juice when moving it hard sometimes. I did the same with the Imperator. Due to how my PC place is set up I relocate the mouse each time I shut off the PC and was a bit too harsh with the cable I guess. Didn't think I'd do it again. Probably poor Razer quality, but admittedly the cable is uber stiff, it's like the worst cable I ever had with a mouse, so that's probably the reason.

So I need a new mouse NOW MORE THAN EVER! Lol. I am actually looking at the Deathadder 2013, though I loved the old 3G version, I moved away from the shape and need a smaller ambidextrous now. Man...

I like the Diamondback really, but the cable is pure heresy, so I guess I could change that rod to a different one? How would I do that I wonder.


----------



## popups

You could buy a Razer Krait 2013. That mouse will likely come out in your country before BST's mouse does.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> You could buy a Razer Krait 2013. That mouse will likely come out in your country before BST's mouse does.


Krait is so far only for Asian market, and brazil some say, not sure about Brazil though. But It's only for asia at this time.
Neither krait of the new goliathus pad is on any other razer announcement/pages.


----------



## 666lbs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Krait is so far only for Asian market, and brazil some say, not sure about Brazil though. But It's only for asia at this time.
> Neither krait of the new goliathus pad is on any other razer announcement/pages.


Maybe they're refining the Razer spyware for the western market.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I am actually looking at the Deathadder 2013.


Negative that. I tried my old DA3G again and no way, the ambidextrous Diamondback feels like a ferrari compared to the Deathadder offroader.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> You could buy a Razer Krait 2013. That mouse will likely come out in your country before BST's mouse does.


Taipan has the perfect size, length and shape! Krait 2013 is smaller and has no sidebuttons. Sidebuttons are an absolute must. If they'd make a Diamondback 2013, that would be definitely an option. Though the software thing is a bit much of a turn off. Thing's are never just good.









I wonder if I could put the cord of the AM into the Diamondback.


----------



## popups

A mouse should have a least one side button these days.

The cord on the Zowies is nice but it should be flexible. If it was flexible it would be perfect.


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> A mouse should have a least one side button these days.
> The cord on the Zowies is nice *but it should be flexible. If it was flexible it would be perfect.*


huh? should I report that as spam?


----------



## popups

How is that spam? The post above mentioned the Zowie AM cord in a Diamondback. I said the cord is good but not great because it doesn't allow you to bend it into shape. BST says he is using a flexible cable. Therefore it could be the best cable out of these mice if it is thick enough and doesn't break.


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> How is that spam? The post above mentioned the Zowie AM cord in a Diamondback. I said the cord is good but not great because it doesn't allow you to bend it into shape. BST says he is using a flexible cable. Therefore it could be the best cable out of these mice if it is thick enough and doesn't break.


Except the zowie cords (on the am and ecx) are probably the most flexible cords on the market right now. The only time I've had any trouble getting it to straighten out is right when I took it out of the box, and that was because it was pretty much frozen being on my doorstep in freezing temps. Otherwise (at normal room temp) the things are like spaghetti strands.


----------



## popups

Really? I cannot get it to straighten out. It isn't exactly like it was in the box but it still holds the general shape it was in when you first get it.

Did you buy yours a long time ago? I got my EC1/2 Evo not to long ago and I just got an AM-FG. Maybe the later batches are different?

My Deathadder and Diamondback are more flexible. Except the Diamondback cable is to thin and split because of constant bending.

You think if I applied some heat I could get it straight without harming it?


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boogdud*
> 
> Except the zowie cords (on the am and ecx) are probably the most flexible cords on the market right now. The only time I've had any trouble getting it to straighten out is right when I took it out of the box, and that was because it was pretty much frozen being on my doorstep in freezing temps. *Otherwise (at normal room temp) the things are like spaghetti strands*.


Like boiled spaghetti that is. Think of my Diamondback's cord as unboiled spaghetti and you get the idea.









My Zowie AM cord is not perfectly straight indeed, but it is so soft and flexible that it feels like using a wireless mouse. The cord lies in front of the mouse in loops and it does not drag the mouse anywhere when I let go of it. I couldn't care less if it's straight as a yarn as long as it is not in the way.
My Diamondback on the other hand has a cord that I can bend and straighten out slightly and it remembers the position somewhat, but only because it is so stiff like a thick wire. What' the use in it?

By the way, I tried the AM after months again and gosh, the switches feel like theres thick mud underneath, so hard to press. The mouse is really hard to move due to the large feet compared to the Diamondback. The do glide well still, but it feels like there's a little magnet in the feet that keeps it tighter on the mat (if it was metal) there's just too much fiction area.
Shape is really good though. So I think a Diamondback 2013, with the Taipan shape, the optical 4G sensor and no synapse (also preferably Zowie cord) would be the ultimate mouse. Aurora would be then the next best thing after that... so Aurora it is (since it is going to be real).


----------



## Blacksetter

Any idea when the Ninox Aurora will be released. My old Logitech is in need of replacement. I thought a mouse upgrade would be the easiest of my decisions, but it's turning into just the opposite!


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Really? I cannot get it to straighten out. It isn't exactly like it was in the box but it still holds the general shape it was in when you first get it.
> Did you buy yours a long time ago? I got my EC1/2 Evo not to long ago and I just got an AM-FG. Maybe the later batches are different?
> My Deathadder and Diamondback are more flexible. Except the Diamondback cable is to thin and split because of constant bending.
> You think if I applied some heat I could get it straight without harming it?


I have a limited edition blue ec2, original am, am-gs, ec2 evo and ec2 evo fg and all of them have identical cords as far as I can tell. The ec2 fg being the newest and it's cord seems only different in color (it's grey). Maybe they've had different batches with different stiffness but all of mine are pretty much the same.

I have an original diamondback and the cord is definitely stiffer than any of my zowie mice.


----------



## popups

When I refer to flexible I mean malleable. Yes the cable is not like a hard rubber like the Diamondback but the Diamondback I can shape the cable the way I want. The same with the DeathAdder, though the DeathAdder's cable is more durable.

Can you take a picture of your straightest cable?


----------



## Ice009

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blacksetter*
> 
> Any idea when the Ninox Aurora will be released. My old Logitech is in need of replacement. I thought a mouse upgrade would be the easiest of my decisions, but it's turning into just the opposite!


lol that is very true. I thought that keyboard and mouse upgrades would be easy, but ever since I started researching them they seem to be the hardest.

I got my first Mechanical Keyboard a few months ago (Filco Majestouch 2 blue switches) and am now looking at upgrading my mouse. It seems to be an even harder decision.

Looking at the new Deathadder and also this Ninox mouse, but the Ninox still isn't out and the Deathadder isn't available to buy locally yet.


----------



## popups

I think the BST mouse will be out near the summer. So buy something to hold you off until then. I bought 3 mice already and I am going to get at least one more. I was going to get two 3090s and two 3050s from BST but it has been a very long time.

I think I rather have the 3050 in the Aurora shell because the native steps are more appealing to me. I like the 500 and 1000 CPI settings.


----------



## Ice009

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I think the BST mouse will be out near the summer. So buy something to hold you off until then. I bought 3 mice already and I am going to get at least one more. I was going to get two 3090s and two 3050s from BST but it has been a very long time.
> I think I rather have the 3050 in the Aurora shell because the native steps are more appealing to me. I like the 500 and 1000 CPI settings.


Summer in what country?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ice009*
> 
> Summer in what country?


I'm guessing around January/February.


----------



## Ice009

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> I'm guessing around January/February.


That doesn't sound too bad then. I think I will get a DA 2013 in the meantime. Any idea when they will be available to buy in Australia?

Also, I see that you have a DA yourself. Which mouse do you use the most out of the ones that you have?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ice009*
> 
> That doesn't sound too bad then. I think I will get a DA 2013 in the meantime. Any idea when they will be available to buy in Australia?
> Also, I see that you have a DA yourself. Which mouse do you use the most out of the ones that you have?


Doubt they'll be available in Australia. May have to order directly from his site.

I just use the G400 now.


----------



## Ice009

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Doubt they'll be available in Australia. May have to order directly from his site.
> I just use the G400 now.


I was referring to the new Deathadder. I assumed I would have to order the BST directly from the site, wasn't talking about that. Probably going off topic though talking about the new DA in this thread.


----------



## popups

I don't think BST would mind to much if you speak of other mice in this thread. We are just comparing what is good and bad in current options. It's not like we are hating on his efforts. The info helps BST make better decisions for his mouse.

We can't even buy his mouse as it doesn't exist for the general public. So until then it isn't wrong to say you bought another mouse. I couldn't wait 6 more months for a new mouse. I don't know if the beta testers paid BST anything but I would have paid him some to get both samples in advance.

There hasn't been any updates and I haven't seen any emails from his newsletter. So I don't think the mouse will be out January or February. Isn't only the 3050 being tested currently and the 3090 betas still being made? That is what I heard and seen. The 3050 is supposed to come out later than the 3090. So how is the 3090 going to be properly tested and released in a few months?

I wonder if he would offer a few people the opportunity to buy the 3050 in the Aurora shell. The lift off is said to be 2mm, control speed 5m/s, 500 and 1000 CPI. Pretty much the specs I want but not in the shell I would choose out of the two.


----------



## avinin1

It seems like Bst didn't got the best timing to release a mouse


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1*
> 
> It seems like Bst didn't got the best timing to release a mouse


I think the Razer people saw the upcoming competition and finally decided to update their mouse to something no one else has. They changed almost everything people didn't like about the mouse except the cable and shape. I can tape up the cable and I can live with the shape if there is enough grip. So it is a hard choice now to use either BST's mouse or the new DeathAdder.

I have really only used 3 mice exclusively in the last 10 years. I choose the best mouse for me and only buy that one. Right now I'm thinking a modified Zowie AM, modified EC2 Evo, 2013 DeathAdder or Ninox Aurora.

The Ninox retail mouse will likely perform better than the Zowies (even with the lens swapped) but I don't think it will perform better than the DA'13. I like the Zowie's shape, switches, optical wheel and no need for drivers. I like the performance that the DeathAdder gives you. I think I will like the Aurora's cable, weight and the fact it won't have those Synapse drivers. I guess I could get the Ninox mouse, then swap out the Omrons for Huanos and change out the wheel encoder to a different TTC encoder that is stiffer and has less notches. Then again it would be easier to just swap out the lens on the Zowie mice.


----------



## resis

What is the benefit of native dpi? I will probably use 450dpi or 500dpi with the Aurora. Am I at any disadvantage compared to using the native 400dpi?


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> *I think the Razer people saw the upcoming competition and finally decided to update their mouse to something no one else has.* They changed almost everything people didn't like about the mouse except the cable and shape. I can tape up the cable and I can live with the shape if there is enough grip. So it is a hard choice now to use either BST's mouse or the new DeathAdder.
> I have really only used 3 mice exclusively in the last 10 years. I choose the best mouse for me and only buy that one. Right now I'm thinking a modified Zowie AM, modified EC2 Evo, 2013 DeathAdder or Ninox Aurora.
> The Ninox retail mouse will likely perform better than the Zowies (even with the lens swapped) but I don't think it will perform better than the DA'13. I like the Zowie's shape, switches, optical wheel and no need for drivers. I like the performance that the DeathAdder gives you. I think I will like the Aurora's cable, weight and the fact it won't have those Synapse drivers. I guess I could get the Ninox mouse, then swap out the Omrons for Huanos and change out the wheel encoder to a different TTC encoder that is stiffer and has less notches. Then again it would be easier to just swap out the lens on the Zowie mice.


I had hard laugh on that (no offensive or something), with all the respect to BST, his little project is the last thing that will make razer worried, they have much things that worst than that to being worried about. Also, I think Bst now too worrying about some other things ..

About the mice - I kinda agree with the general thinking. Altough I wouldn't speak about the Ninox's before try them out nor the DeathAdder 2013. but most parts in Zowie's mice are nicely done but nothing than that. Zowie never updates thier mice: Mico's MCU/firmware (very old one being currently used), EC Evo's and AM versions's MCU and scrollwheels encoders, but sadly [As for 'perfectionism' as us], as you see, for the gamers its all enough.

I will be very happy with a EC1 shell (basically modified IME3.0) with a rebranded non-prediction Avago 3966 (based on 3060) but everyone has his fantasys I guess


----------



## glockateer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> What is the benefit of native dpi? I will probably use 450dpi or 500dpi with the Aurora. Am I at any disadvantage compared to using the native 400dpi?


Filtered and/or interpolated dpi lower the skill ceiling for how good you can get with a mouse. It also makes the overall feel terrible for people who have proficiency with a native dpi previously. It generally doesn't matter as much to non-perfectionists.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1*
> 
> I had hard laugh on that (no offensive or something), with all the respect to BST, his little project is the last thing that will make razer worried


All the big gaming gear makers don't give a ****.
99.99% or more of all gamers are complete and total newbs, who have absolutely zero use for anything but a ball-mouse and a ****ty old membrane keyboard. They don't know anything about mice or keyboards, at all. So their purchasing decisions are based on visual appeal and other marketing schemes which are essentially complete and total BS.

And how can you blame them? even the "expert" reviewers on tech quides are completely ignorant to mouse features which actually matter. I swear I read a review the other day on a mouse which the reviewer said "Even though the mouse only has 4000 DPI ---- ."
I mean ***! You would have to be an ultra high-sensitivity gamer and have a 3000+ pixel resolution monitor to even use 4k dpi.

omg 9000 DPI and LED's yall.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *glockateer*
> 
> Filtered and/or interpolated dpi lower the skill ceiling for how good you can get with a mouse. It also makes the overall feel terrible for people who have proficiency with a native dpi previously. It generally doesn't matter as much to non-perfectionists.


That means the further away you move from the native dpi, the "worse" it gets? and it is worst betwen two native dpi steps, right? I'm no pro gamer, so I'd probably not notice, but I'm sensitive to acceleration and other noticeable flaws, but I guess a native 400dpi mouse used on 500dpi wouldn't be a problem.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> All the big gaming gear makers don't give a ****.
> 99.99% or more of all gamers are complete and total newbs, who have absolutely zero use for anything but a ball-mouse and a ****ty old membrane keyboard. They don't know anything about mice or keyboards, at all. So their purchasing decisions are based on visual appeal and other marketing schemes which are essentially complete and total BS.
> And how can you blame them? even the "expert" reviewers on tech quides are completely ignorant to mouse features which actually matter. I swear I read a review the other day on a mouse which the reviewer said "Even though the mouse only has 4000 DPI ---- ."
> I mean ***! You would have to be an ultra high-sensitivity gamer and have a 3000+ pixel resolution monitor to even use 4k dpi.
> omg 9000 DPI and LED's yall.


"Only 4000dpi" Hahahaha.... sad.

What we need is a TotalBiscuit of gaming peripherals. I don't trust anything but the respected "experts" on this forum here, I must admit. This site is like the Wikileaks of gaming gear. I know vendors use this site for marketing and even worse, but I believe there is still some truth to be found in between the forum post lines.

By the way. I love lights, even worse, customizable lights







, but only if they come with performance. As a mouse noob I was somewhat lucky in the past. Bought cheap opticals that broke fast but were accurate enough, later got caught by Razer like a naked fish, but had luck to use their "better" stuff (Diamondback and Deathadder). Today I am a bit better educated. Knowledge is power.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *glockateer*
> 
> Filtered and/or interpolated dpi lower the skill ceiling for how good you can get with a mouse. It also makes the overall feel terrible for people who have proficiency with a native dpi previously. It generally doesn't matter as much to non-perfectionists.


Glockateer would you rather have the 3050 native steps or the native 3090 steps in the Aurora shell?

By the way are you using the BST sample when your playing with Building Blocks in CS:GO?


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

First off, I'd like to say that I am absolutely enthralled with the Aurora, the idea of a mouse being designed from the ground up to address common sensor flaws is a dream come true.

I will be getting one as soon as they're available (and maybe a few to give away).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *avinin1*
> 
> I had hard laugh on that (no offensive or something), with all the respect to BST, his little project is the last thing that will make razer worried
> 
> 
> 
> All the big gaming gear makers don't give a ****.
> 99.99% or more of all gamers are complete and total newbs, who have absolutely zero use for anything but a ball-mouse and a ****ty old membrane keyboard. They don't know anything about mice or keyboards, at all. So their purchasing decisions are based on visual appeal and other marketing schemes which are essentially complete and total BS.
> 
> And how can you blame them? even the "expert" reviewers on tech quides are completely ignorant to mouse features which actually matter. I swear I read a review the other day on a mouse which the reviewer said "Even though the mouse only has 4000 DPI ---- ."
> I mean ***! You would have to be an ultra high-sensitivity gamer and have a 3000+ pixel resolution monitor to even use 4k dpi.
> 
> omg 9000 DPI and LED's yall.
Click to expand...

I agree that sensor quality should be everyone's primary concern, but to say that you need to be an ultra high sensitivity gamer to use high DPI is wrong. All else being equal higher DPI is always better.
Aiming is not resolution dependant, yes you can try to match the steps on a mouse to equal one pixel width of rotation, but games don't actually measure movement like that.
Go run TF2 at the lowest possible resolution with mouse sensitivity turned all the way down, the image doesn't jump around one pixel at a time. You can actually move your aim around within the space of one pixel and fire off two shots and hit two different points. Your aim is not perfectly tied to your crosshairs.
Even if you use extremely low sensitivity your aim will be smoother at higher DPI. The big problem I'm running into is that in game mouse sensitivity sliders don't go down far enough. TF2 is one example of a game that does it right and goes down so far that you can use a 50cm per 360 turning rate even with a 8200 DPI mouse. Practically speaking you'd probably run into other sensor issues moving a high DPI mouse at the speeds necessary for a turning rate like that (I know my G600 does not like moving fast), but theoretically it is something we should be aiming for.

No, it's not going to make a world of difference. The practical benefit of going over the recommended DPI for your screen resolution will be more a matter of feel than anything, but isn't that half the reason we're so picky about our mice in the first place?


----------



## Skylit

^bit of misconception between both you and the quoted post.


----------



## CPate

Echoing Skylit - pretty much every sensor has a CPI value that delivers optimal performance, and none of those sensors performs its best at its max CPI value. There are some sensors for which this is more pronounced (309x, 305x), but even 9500 and 980x have some degradation in performance as you push toward max CPI. I'm not as familiar with PTE performance but it wouldn't surprise me if it's the same as the Avago story.

If you're trying to optimize performance, the best bet is to keep your in-game sensitivity to 1:1 (or as little downscaling as possible) and use the native sensor CPI value that feels best for you.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Right, never use a non-native DPI level, and if that happens to be 4000 DPI then there's nothing wrong with using that even if it's much more than is practically optimal for your screen resolution.
If the mouse isn't performing to your standards at its maximum native DPI then cut that in half and it should be more stable (and cut that in half again if you need more still), but if there aren't any tracking issues at maximum native DPI then there's no reason to reduce it.
Correct?

I guess that brings up the question of "what is the highest native DPI value on any given sensor?" If it is common for the highest available setting to be a non-native value, that would make things tricky. I've always just assumed that the highest setting is always native, but I guess there's no guarantee of that being the case.


----------



## glockateer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Glockateer would you rather have the 3050 native steps or the native 3090 steps in the Aurora shell?
> By the way are you using the BST sample when your playing with Building Blocks in CS:GO?


I'm not sure yet since I don't have the 3090 version yet. I've been using the 3050 version for a couple months and it is pretty much perfect if you want 500 or 1000 dpi on a light weight mouse.


----------



## Skylit

DPI is merely sensitivity. There's really no such thing as "enough DPI".

In 3D games, your sensitivity value is typically a multiple of yaw and pitch rotation. An in-game value of 3 "sensitivity" on 400 DPI, yields the same "precision" as using any other DPI value at your disposal.

The above statement is one aspect. CPate has touched a little on the other.


----------



## Nivity

Damn the wait is getting long









Im tired of buying mice after mice and not being happy with it








There is 0 ambidextrous mice that fits me ;/ Good sensor + sidebutton, how hard can it be to manufactur, really! Either bad laser ambi with side, or good sensor without sidebuttons.

zzzz go bst ;>


----------



## avinin1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Damn the wait is getting long
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im tired of buying mice after mice and not being happy with it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is 0 ambidextrous mice that fits me ;/ Good sensor + sidebutton, how hard can it be to manufactur, really! Either bad laser ambi with side, or good sensor without sidebuttons.
> zzzz go bst ;>


This made my morning. good shabbes guys.


----------



## Skpe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> I agree that sensor quality should be everyone's primary concern, but to say that you need to be an ultra high sensitivity gamer to use high DPI is wrong. All else being equal higher DPI is always better.
> Aiming is not resolution dependant, yes you can try to match the steps on a mouse to equal one pixel width of rotation, but games don't actually measure movement like that.
> Go run TF2 at the lowest possible resolution with mouse sensitivity turned all the way down, the image doesn't jump around one pixel at a time. You can actually move your aim around within the space of one pixel and fire off two shots and hit two different points. Your aim is not perfectly tied to your crosshairs.


I'm on this fence also, when I used to play UT I did check out how well the game engine dealt with lower sensitivities. It's an old engine but you could use iirc 0.02 sensitivity and every mouse movement you made resulted in an ingame unit of measurement, with direct 1:1 mouse movement to ingame movement. So using a mouse DPI of over 1000 actually made practical sense, say a native DPI step of 1800, rather than 900.

Not without practical limitations however. Under 0.02 resulted in no movement unless 2 mouse movements were registered. So it would be wasted mouse movement. But that did ask the question of diminishing returns at the 0.02 mark in question. There perhaps maybe diminishing returns well before the 0.02. And also perhaps it might be a case of only some game engines have this problem, whilst others might allow you to go infinitesimally smaller numbers. Also interpolating your DPI to say the Steelseries 5040, or using a high DPI step which can cause under performance. All these considered, if your mouses can perform optimally at 450/900/1800, I would choose 1800 and lower my ingame sens.

The only argument against this is the theory that you "don't need this much DPI to turn 360 for your resolution". Well, now we've presented a need, maybe. I'm happy to hear any arguments against.


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skpe*
> 
> I would choose 1800 and lower my ingame sens.


I would choose 400 and lower my ingame sens.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> I would choose 400 and lower my ingame sens.


Lol, that's what I always do. Even on 400dpi most (actually all) games have a way too high sensitivity. I did not encounter a game where I had to set in-game mouse sensitivity higher.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Damn the wait is getting long
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im tired of buying mice after mice and not being happy with it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is 0 ambidextrous mice that fits me ;/ Good sensor + sidebutton, how hard can it be to manufactur, really! Either bad laser ambi with side, or good sensor without sidebuttons.
> zzzz go bst ;>


Yes, this.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skpe*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> I agree that sensor quality should be everyone's primary concern, but to say that you need to be an ultra high sensitivity gamer to use high DPI is wrong. All else being equal higher DPI is always better.
> Aiming is not resolution dependant, yes you can try to match the steps on a mouse to equal one pixel width of rotation, but games don't actually measure movement like that.
> Go run TF2 at the lowest possible resolution with mouse sensitivity turned all the way down, the image doesn't jump around one pixel at a time. You can actually move your aim around within the space of one pixel and fire off two shots and hit two different points. Your aim is not perfectly tied to your crosshairs.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on this fence also, when I used to play UT I did check out how well the game engine dealt with lower sensitivities. It's an old engine but you could use iirc 0.02 sensitivity and every mouse movement you made resulted in an ingame unit of measurement, with direct 1:1 mouse movement to ingame movement. So using a mouse DPI of over 1000 actually made practical sense, say a native DPI step of 1800, rather than 900.
> 
> Not without practical limitations however. Under 0.02 resulted in no movement unless 2 mouse movements were registered. So it would be wasted mouse movement. But that did ask the question of diminishing returns at the 0.02 mark in question. There perhaps maybe diminishing returns well before the 0.02. And also perhaps it might be a case of only some game engines have this problem, whilst others might allow you to go infinitesimally smaller numbers. Also interpolating your DPI to say the Steelseries 5040, or using a high DPI step which can cause under performance. All these considered, if your mouses can perform optimally at 450/900/1800, I would choose 1800 and lower my ingame sens.
> 
> The only argument against this is the theory that you "don't need this much DPI to turn 360 for your resolution". Well, now we've presented a need, maybe. I'm happy to hear any arguments against.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that.

I know a lot of game engines these days have inherent tracking issues (e.g. Dead Space) and negative/positive acceleration, but I hadn't considered that sometimes it might only be an issue at lower sensitivities, usually I just figured it was crappy programming (well, I still think it is, but now I know the problem potentially only starts after a certain point).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> DPI is merely sensitivity. There's really no such thing as "enough DPI".
> 
> In 3D games, your sensitivity value is typically a multiple of yaw and pitch rotation. An in-game value of 3 "sensitivity" on 400 DPI, yields the same "precision" as using any other DPI value at your disposal.
> 
> The above statement is one aspect. CPate has touched a little on the other.


So, someone using a turning rate of 100cm per 360 at 400 DPI will have exactly the same in game accuracy (or, in game sensitivity, the number of steps in your 360 degree rotation) as someone using a turning rate of 10cm per 360 at 4,000 DPI. Then, if the game lets you move the in game sensitivity low enough while keeping 1:1 tracking, and if you have a mouse with a native 8,000 DPI sensor that is also free of the common issues seen today, you can double your in game accuracy (sensitivity) with no loss in tracking reliability.
To go one step further, if a game engine let you keep 1:1 tracking to an extremely low in game sensitivity, and you had a theoretical "perfect mouse" the person using a 100cm per 360 turning rate could also use an 8,000 DPI mouse, and would benefit from it.

Yes, I know that's not going to happen for a long time, maybe ever. Still, in theory, all else being equal everyone will benefit from using higher DPI.


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Lol, that's what I always do. Even on 400dpi most (actually all) games have a way too high sensitivity. I did not encounter a game where I had to set in-game mouse sensitivity higher.


Bad programming. Seems like many games designers these days don't understand how to make proper mouse control.


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> To go one step further, if a game engine let you keep 1:1 tracking to an extremely low in game sensitivity, and you had a theoretical "perfect mouse" the person using a 100cm per 360 turning rate could also use an 8,000 DPI mouse, and would benefit from it.
> Yes, I know that's not going to happen for a long time, maybe ever. Still, in theory, all else being equal everyone will benefit from using higher DPI.


I'd say such a low sens player could use 8000 DPI mouse but he wouldn't benefit from it. And still this theoretical benefit is not caused by high DPI but very low sensitivity. For fps games 400-1000 DPI is enough already and will be enough in the future. Use 1800 or more if you like, but I'm pretty sure this won't give you any real advantage, only on paper (or in your mind).


----------



## bst

I guess people are confused about DPI because there is no easy way for FPS gamers to be sure that they're using the correct DPI to avoid pixel skipping. Well, there is a calculator, but a lot of people don't seem to know about it. It can be found here:
http://www.funender.com/quake/mouse/index.html

So when you're looking for your next mouse, use the calculator and see how much DPI you need. You can put in your highest sensitivity and screen resolution you think you'll ever use, and see what DPI would be enough for it. I'll give you an example: *at 1280 horizontal screen resolution, 4000 DPI is enough for 1 inch (or 2.5cm) per 360 turn, or equivalent to sensitivity 40 at 400 DPI.* Which is CRAZY fast!







(at 1920 horizontal res, its enough for 1.5 inches. 3.5 cm, or equivalent to sensitivity 27 at 400 DPI). STILL CRAZY!









- For a normal sensitivity of about 21cm/360, you can go up to 10,500px with 4000 DPI.
- Even at a high sensitivity of 10cm/360, 4000 DPI is enough for a resolution of 5,250px.
- Lets say you wanted to use 6cm/360, you'd still be fine with a 1440p screen.

So for 99% of FPS gamers, 4000 DPI is easily enough even for a 2160p (3840×2160) screen.

Why is using a lot more DPI than you need a bad thing? Well, on some mice its not too bad, but for a lot of mice it is, or at the least its not the best option, and it is never necessary to do it. Its always a good idea to have a little bit more though, since if you have a lower DPI than you need, it'll skip some pixels, but it doesn't need much at all.

At high DPI, you are asking a lot of the mouse, because even if you lower the in game sensitivity, the mouse is still trying to operate at 4000 DPI, and at the same time its also trying to track well and at high speeds (when you move the mouse fast). If you use a lower DPI, then it has an easier time and performs better.

Also something to look out for, is on some mice, their highest DPI is fake, for example some mice which are sold as 3200 DPI are really 1600 DPI mice (thats their highest native DPI setting). The 3200 DPI comes from multiplying the 1600 by 2, and since that causes the mouse to skip every other pixel, a processor in the mouse fills them in by guessing, and its not perfect. So in that case, using the 3200 DPI wouldn't be as good as using 1600 DPI.


----------



## Skylit

Theoretically, I can see where he's coming from, but it's not like it's going to matter unless you're noticeably zig zagging on screen. You can aim to be "pixel perfect", but fixing your settings to meet a certain criteria is only going to initially hurt you in game.

Like I said before, You're limited by total yaw and pitch rotation, not DPI.


----------



## bst

Yeah, if a mouse is fine at its highest DPI for your cm/360 sensitivity, there isn't really anything wrong with using the highest DPI. But like you say, at some point having those extra in-game angle units isn't going to be noticeable anyway. I suppose the main thing is just to know the specs and performance of your mouse, to avoid any problems.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> in theory, all else being equal everyone will benefit from using higher DPI.


Only in theory - in the real world we can't use more than what our body is capable of making use of. But its been well tested, most players can't make use of much more than 1600 DPI, given the current game resolutions in use. A lot of pro players with amazing aim for example, only use 400 DPI and low screen resolutions.


----------



## Skylit

At least to a point where it's not going to matter. On engines with a Quake background (Goldsrc, Source, CoD.. etc), a sensitivity value at or below 3~ should suffice for the most part. Too much dynamic FOV to give a static answer. Ex: Engine value of 90 FOV (4:3) becomes 106.2~ FOV on 16:9, or 100~ FOV on 16:10.. (HOR+ scaling)

ADS, and basic scope functionality might require a lower "sensitivity" value if you're OCD about being pixel perfect, but I honestly wouldn't bother.... Chances are, you have more than enough play to land accurate shots.

Back to what CPate addressed, many sensors solutions don't necessarily perform as well when scaled into higher resolutions. High polling rate is a major contributor to ripple like behavior as updates occur much quicker than windows default or 8ms delay... now factor in high DPI and we have a party  ...At least assuming there isn't any modifications done w/ the code to clean up cursor movement... *Cough*

In addition to that, specific MCU programming might benefit IPS speed per surface basis while dealing with lower native values. Of course, speed will remain the same if interpolated off a higher native step. To adress a previous question, the highest step on current Laser solutions is most always native, though that dosen't mean it performs well or as well as it should. Hardware is typically stressed ignoring stuff done rom level.

I could go on rambling, but theres no point.


----------



## Skar

Well, higher dpi will get a hell of a lot more interesting once we have 336ppi 24" "retina" displays.

...i wouldnt mind that tbh







.


----------



## RegalX

Too bad I Cant use the native on my DA cause its too at high 1800 dpi


----------



## popups

I get a little confused on what is native and what is not. What is the 3.5G DeathAdder's native steps? What is the 2013 DeathAdder's native steps? What is BST's 3050 and 3090's native?

For me, I feel that 1800 is really the maximum CPI usable for most human beings. It is usable with games that allow below 1 sensitivity.

I have used 1600 CPI for a long time and I felt like I wouldn't want anything more than that. These days I use 400-500 for old games and 800-900 for new games. I don't know if I would want the 400 and 800 the 3090 gives or the 500 and 1000 of the 3050.

If I will use no more than 1000 CPI, would the 3050 be better for me, would it give more m/s over the 3090?


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> in theory, all else being equal everyone will benefit from using higher DPI.
> 
> 
> 
> Only in theory - in the real world we can't use more than what our body is capable of making use of. But its been well tested, most players can't make use of much more than 1600 DPI, given the current game resolutions in use. A lot of pro players with amazing aim for example, only use 400 DPI and low screen resolutions.
Click to expand...

The problem is, I grew up using less than 5cm per 360, and I only recently started using exactly 5cm per 360 just for the sake of consistency. That's the sensitivity I'm most comfortable with, and at that sensitivity I would be pixel skipping anywhere under 4,000 DPI on my current monitor at FOV 90.
But then you consider that not all games let you use FOV 90, yes, it may be less than ideal but sometimes that's just the way it is. At FOV 70 using 5cm per 360 on a 2560x1440 monitor I need, _need_ at least 5,700 DPI. Now consider that I'll probably switch to a 4Kx2K panel sometime in the next few years... 8,900 DPI, minimum!
Ok, so maybe I suck it up and get a bigger desk and start using 10cm per 360, 4,000 DPI still isn't good enough for the worst case scenario.

(Not that it's going to stop me from getting the Aurora, it is pretty close to being good enough. It would be nice if you would consider making something with more DPI at some point though.)


----------



## popups

Sounds like you don't use a great monitor to game and you don't think that lower sensitivity/speed is a good way to play games. So why care so much about pixes skipping?

Most high level gamers play at lower resolutions (some still using CRT), large mouse pads and they use lower sensitivities or lower CPI. All for the sake of responsiveness, consistency and accuracy. I don't hear them saying they need or want high DPI.

1280x1024, 16-17in mouse pad and 900 DPI or less is a very typical setup.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

(I'm actually using a Catleap. 2560x1440 at 112hz. Pure joy.)

On second thought I didn't actually take that train of thought far enough. If at some point in the future I get three 4Kx2K monitors (set up in portrait mode, giving a resolution of 6480x3840) and play a game at FOV 70, at my current turning rate I would need 14,536 DPI just to avoid pixel skipping. If I adapt to a slower turning rate (10cm/360) I would need 7268 DPI.
Looking even further down the road, people using an 8Kx4K monitor at a turning rate of 10cm/360 could potentially need 9,000 DPI.

That's probably a long ways off, but still something to take into consideration.


----------



## Skpe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I guess people are confused about DPI because there is no easy way for FPS gamers to be sure that they're using the correct DPI to avoid pixel skipping. Well, there is a calculator, but a lot of people don't seem to know about it. It can be found here:
> 
> So when you're looking for your next mouse, use the calculator and see how much DPI you need. You can put in your highest sensitivity and screen resolution you think you'll ever use, and see what DPI would be enough for it.
> 
> Why is using a lot more DPI than you need a bad thing? Well, on some mice its not too bad, but for a lot of mice it is, or at the least its not the best option, and it is never necessary to do it. Its always a good idea to have a little bit more though, since if you have a lower DPI than you need, it'll skip some pixels, but it doesn't need much at all.


This has got to be common knowledge by now, but not without it's own problem. I'd never suggest to use a DPI of an extreme high value, which perhaps IloveHighDPI would (as he demonstrates he uses an insane fast cm/360 which is probably still not as fast as some SC2 pros would use - different discussion altogether!). But it's mainly in the twitch gaming world where a person reads your guide, and thinks they need this arbitrary figure of say '572' DPI and sets his mouse close to that as possible which could mean interpolation from using software to get that, rather than simply using a native step of 900 and scaling down the ingame sensitivity. My point just stands it's always better to use the 900 dpi, or rather if the mouse can handle it, 1620/1800 native dpi (where it can still perform/track at this dpi optimally), rather than choosing 450dpi. In UT, I could be actually notice the accuracy drop in ingame units the higher the sens goes above '1', in other games I have not tested.

Skylit eludes briefly to other factors in mouse performance (we aren't too savvy to the stresses of DPI in windows), which are interesting, maybe enough of a problem that using 900 over 1800 native steps would make sense.

But it interests me, your last point, BST, that you chose to draw the line here regarding ingame angle units. The people reading these mice guides are all in the common goal of finding perfect 1:1 tracking, have understood the need for using 6/11 windows, have started to use better mice sensors, have ditched the 'wasted' dpi of 3500 in favour of 450, have calculated the dpi needed & gone for it, have got their windows in working order regarding acceleration and uninstalled mouse drivers to avoid issues and done far more - they've done all this but you'd suggest stopping there before thinking about an extra step - in game 3d engine and it's capabilities. That's the point you draw the line at saying 'you won't make practical use of this' which does sound a little silly, given all the other steps.


----------



## bst

....thinks they need this arbitrary figure of say '572' DPI ...

I just forgot to mention to only use native DPI, I guess because I'm so used to talking in native DPI steps that sometimes I subconsciously forget to include the 'native' part and assume people know thats what I mean. So yeah, that was an unintentional omission









...but you'd suggest stopping there before thinking about an extra step - in game 3d engine and it's capabilities. That's the point you draw the line at saying 'you won't make practical use of this'...

I think I could have explained it better. I meant it in the literal sense that using more DPI than you need is never necessary, but I should have expanded on the different kind of game engines, thats true. I was actually going to but the post started to get really long and so I deleted a bunch of stuff I wrote about it :/ I should probably stay away from writing guides until I have more time to spend on writing it properly, lol


----------



## Skylit

Tbh, the "DPI" calculator" itself is interpreted wrong.


----------



## wo1fwood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> The problem is, I grew up using less than 5cm per 360, and I only recently started using exactly 5cm per 360 just for the sake of consistency. That's the sensitivity I'm most comfortable with, and at that sensitivity I would be pixel skipping anywhere under 4,000 DPI on my current monitor at FOV 90.
> But then you consider that not all games let you use FOV 90, yes, it may be less than ideal but sometimes that's just the way it is. At FOV 70 using 5cm per 360 on a 2560x1440 monitor I need, _need_ at least 5,700 DPI. Now consider that I'll probably switch to a 4Kx2K panel sometime in the next few years... 8,900 DPI, minimum!
> Ok, so maybe I suck it up and get a bigger desk and start using 10cm per 360, 4,000 DPI still isn't good enough for the worst case scenario.
> (Not that it's going to stop me from getting the Aurora, it is pretty close to being good enough. It would be nice if you would consider making something with more DPI at some point though.)


I think I need to point out an important caveat here that many people still miss. In pretty much every modern FPS game, your FOV and screen resolution will have *absolutely zero* influence on your cm/360°. So regardless of your aspect ratio, whether or not you have a FOV of 65 or 90, or 106.3, or a resolution width of 1024 or 2560, your sensitivity will always remain the same (assuming that the engine doesn't scale sensitivity, which it shouldn't unless in ADS or zoom_fov).

As an example, in a setup with a 2560x1440 monitor with a FOV of 90, you need ~8200 CPI to achieve a ~5cm/360° rotation, assuming your sensitivity multiplier is 1 and yaw value is 0.022. Keeping the same yaw/sensitivity values, on a monitor where the FOV is 65 and the resolution width is say 1600, guess what, your CPI needs are *exactly* the same (again, 8200). As an additional example, I could use less than 8200 CPI to achieve the same rotation/360°. If I adjusted my sensitivity multiplier to 3, I now only need ~2733 CPI to achieve the same cm/360° rotation.

So in review, the only items that can affect your rotational turn, are CPI, yaw/pitch values, sensitivity multiplier, and any other extraneous multipliers such as zoom_fov or ADS (which basically works exactly like zoom_fov in Quake).


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Tbh, the "DPI" calculator" itself is interpreted wrong.


What do you mean?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> What do you mean?


People assuming they need a certain DPI value, when it fact, anything precision/pixel skip related is mere yaw and pitch @ x res.

Emphasis on my original statement. DPI is only sensitivity. Fast or slow, personal preference.


----------



## Gabriel Ruan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> People assuming they need a certain DPI value, when it fact, anything precision/pixel skip related is mere yaw and pitch @ x res.
> 
> Emphasis on my original statement. DPI is only sensitivity. Fast or slow, personal preference.


You will be the end of me.


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> (I'm actually using a Catleap. 2560x1440 at 112hz. Pure joy.)
> On second thought I didn't actually take that train of thought far enough. If at some point in the future I get three 4Kx2K monitors (set up in portrait mode, giving a resolution of 6480x3840) and play a game at FOV 70, at my current turning rate I would need 14,536 DPI just to avoid pixel skipping. If I adapt to a slower turning rate (10cm/360) I would need 7268 DPI.
> Looking even further down the road, people using an 8Kx4K monitor at a turning rate of 10cm/360 could potentially need 9,000 DPI.
> That's probably a long ways off, but still something to take into consideration.


Except you won't really need more DPI. You'd be just fine with your current settings.

As wo1fwood said, screen resolution doesn't really matter. If I can aim at whatever I want using 400 DPI and 1.6 sens at 640x480, I would aim just as good at 6480x3840 with those settings. Sure there's a lot more pixels but it still takes 360 degrees to do full turn







.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wo1fwood*
> 
> I think I need to point out an important caveat here that many people still miss. In pretty much every modern FPS game, your FOV and screen resolution will have *absolutely zero* influence on your cm/360°.


That's right, but it does affect the number of pixels that make up your 360 degree rotation. With 1024 horizontal resolution at FOV 90, there are 4096 pixel widths in a 360 degree turn. Set that to FOV 70 and now there are 5263 pixel widths in a 360 degree rotation. In order to maintain "per pixel" aiming, lower sensitivity is necessary, and thus, higher DPI is needed to maintain your preferred cm/360 turning rate (unless you were already going well over the minimum, say, someone using 800 DPI with a 576 DPI minimum, in which case you've got plenty of headroom).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skpe*
> 
> My point just stands it's always better to use the 900 dpi, or rather if the mouse can handle it, 1620/1800 native dpi (where it can still perform/track at this dpi optimally), rather than choosing 450dpi. In UT, I could be actually notice the accuracy drop in ingame units the higher the sens goes above '1', in other games I have not tested.


I just wanted to echo this point. The loss of 1:1 tracking can potentially work both ways.
I guess this means there is an ideal DPI range for any given turning rate, depending on the game engine. e.g. 400 DPI might be just fine for a 40cm/360 turning rate, but could require someone using 20cm/360 to turn up in game sensitivity enough to put them outside the 1:1 tracking range, even though it's within proper specs for a low resolution monitor.

On that note, I still think people with low resolution monitors would benefit from using higher than necessary DPI.
When you're aiming from one spot to another the motion you're making isn't calculated precisely according to the number of pixels on screen, not to mention you're probably trying to hit a moving target, in your head everything is going to be a lot more fluid than the 1024 steps of horizontal resolution would allow if aiming at a static image using exact steps.
Maybe that's part of the reason people like using such low sensetivity in the first place? (40cm/360 on a 1024 wide screen only needs 200 DPI, but people will be using at least double that)

I also think it's kind of presumptuous to say that someone can't tell the difference between having 10,000 steps in their 360 degree rotation (turning rate matched to a 2560 wide screen at FOV 90) and 20,000 steps, or 40,000 or 80,000.
How many "steps" are there in the nerves in your skin, the joints in your hand and arm and the processing ability of your brain. If you want to put a computational number to those things I have no doubt that you'd have to add a lot of zeros to the technical limits of the hardware we use today.
It seems to me that people greatly undervalue the capabilities of the human body just because it's inconvenient (or impossible) to match it with current technology.
I prefer to think that we should at least try, and see how far we can go.


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> I prefer to think that we should at least try, and see how far we can go.


Of course, but you're heading wrong direction.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> People assuming they need a certain DPI value, when it fact, anything precision/pixel skip related is mere yaw and pitch @ x res.
> 
> Emphasis on my original statement. DPI is only sensitivity. Fast or slow, personal preference.


Just to dig a bit further into that, staying on the physical world, and taking the definition of DPI in it's literal sense (as in it can scan x dots each inch, all of them equally spaced), which might well be a wrong statement in this day and age









If you were really wondering what DPI value would be enough (as long as the DPI definition was true as presented above), you would only need to do a very simple mathematical experiment :

1 inch = 2.54 centimeters = 0.0254 meters

Then, we check what would be the distance between those "Dots" by dividing this distance evenly :

400 DPI => 0.0254 / 400 = 0.0000635 meters
Or, what's the same : 63.5 micrometres = 0.0635 millimeters = 63.5*10^-6 metres.

Let's just, for comparison sake, check other values :

800 DPI => 0.0254 / 800 = 0.00003175 meters
1600 DPI => 0.0254 / 1600 = 0.000015873 meters
4000 DPI => 0.0254 / 4000 = 0.00000635 meters <--- Note we're on 6 micrometers here already
8000 DPI => 0.0254 / 8000 = 0.000003175 meters

Just to be perfectly clear here, we're only on the physical side of things, meaning basically the sensor... And that is, if our hypothesis about DPI holds true (wink wink), even at 400DPI you have plenty of precision.
According to Wikipedia's article :
· At 400 DPI you should have the precision to aim to something smaller than the average human hair (almost twice as precise).
· At 1000 DPI you're at one thousandth of an inch.
· At 4000 DPI you have enough precision to target one single red blood cell.

While human hand's precision is still not thoroughly studied and tested to get specific numbers on what's enough, I am particularly sure that, (even if repeating myself too many times, I need to push that) given that definition of DPI holds true, 400 DPI is more precise than most humans can achieve without aid/tools, specifically taking into account that we're still talking about using a mouse, a device which weights tens of grams, which has a static friction coefficient and a dynamic friction coefficient.

And that is, not even getting into the MCU capabilites, that would be the raw potential precision if it works exactly like that (which it shouldn't at 100%







).

Once you get trough the MCU and the OS, which should hamper the raw precision by either discarding counts, cleaning the "signal", adding and stacking counts up, we get to the game's transformations to make the mouse movement translated to the inverse world matrix. When you're on the game, specially on a FPS, you have a finite number of spots your mouse can "aim to", which is basically controlled by your in-game sensitivity, pitch and yaw values. Being blunt here, you'll have more "spots you can aim to" the lower your in-game sensitivity is, with a limit on 1. Anything lower than 1 will follow the mathematical interpretation (thus it should give more points), but it won't be linear anymore (just the same as the limit of several functions when x equals zero tends to infinite), but don't quote me on that, since I'm talking about what I remember about it and I don't have the functions right in front of me.

So, what DPI do you really need?

Well, usually you would be told that you need the DPI that won't hurt your performance with your game settings, according to the calculator.
Having said that, it's much easier to change the game settings to improve the percieved and real in-game precision than get good quality tracking on high DPI.

My usual tip on that is to get to a comfortable DPI/Sensitivity combo where you're close to in-game 1 sensitivity and default pitch and yaw.

Now, back on topic, I keep trowing my monies on the screen and my Aurora isn't getting here.
Why does this happen, bst? Why!?

I'll keep on waiting, I'm sure it will be worth it


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> I prefer to think that we should at least try, and see how far we can go.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, but you're heading wrong direction.
Click to expand...

You suggest we improve mouse accuracy by continually increasing stability at high speed in order to accommodate a 1,000cm/360 turning rate?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> People assuming they need a certain DPI value, when it fact, anything precision/pixel skip related is mere yaw and pitch @ x res.
> 
> Emphasis on my original statement. DPI is only sensitivity. Fast or slow, personal preference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to dig a bit further into that, staying on the physical world, and taking the definition of DPI in it's literal sense (as in it can scan x dots each inch, all of them equally spaced), which might well be a wrong statement in this day and age
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you were really wondering what DPI value would be enough (as long as the DPI definition was true as presented above), you would only need to do a very simple mathematical experiment :
> 
> 1 inch = 2.54 centimeters = 0.0254 meters
> 
> Then, we check what would be the distance between those "Dots" by dividing this distance evenly :
> 
> 400 DPI => 0.0254 / 400 = 0.0000635 meters
> Or, what's the same : 63.5 micrometres = 0.0635 millimeters = 63.5*10^-6 metres.
> 
> Let's just, for comparison sake, check other values :
> 
> 800 DPI => 0.0254 / 800 = 0.00003175 meters
> 1600 DPI => 0.0254 / 1600 = 0.000015873 meters
> 4000 DPI => 0.0254 / 4000 = 0.00000635 meters <--- Note we're on 6 micrometers here already
> 8000 DPI => 0.0254 / 8000 = 0.000003175 meters
> 
> Just to be perfectly clear here, we're only on the physical side of things, meaning basically the sensor... And that is, if our hypothesis about DPI holds true (wink wink), even at 400DPI you have plenty of precision.
> According to Wikipedia's article :
> · At 400 DPI you should have the precision to aim to something smaller than the average human hair (almost twice as precise).
> · At 1000 DPI you're at one thousandth of an inch.
> · At 4000 DPI you have enough precision to target one single red blood cell.
> 
> While human hand's precision is still not thoroughly studied and tested to get specific numbers on what's enough, I am particularly sure that, (even if repeating myself too many times, I need to push that) given that definition of DPI holds true, 400 DPI is more precise than most humans can achieve without aid/tools, specifically taking into account that we're still talking about using a mouse, a device which weights tens of grams, which has a static friction coefficient and a dynamic friction coefficient.
> 
> And that is, not even getting into the MCU capabilites, that would be the raw potential precision if it works exactly like that (which it shouldn't at 100%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> 
> Once you get trough the MCU and the OS, which should hamper the raw precision by either discarding counts, cleaning the "signal", adding and stacking counts up, we get to the game's transformations to make the mouse movement translated to the inverse world matrix. When you're on the game, specially on a FPS, you have a finite number of spots your mouse can "aim to", which is basically controlled by your in-game sensitivity, pitch and yaw values. Being blunt here, you'll have more "spots you can aim to" the lower your in-game sensitivity is, with a limit on 1. Anything lower than 1 will follow the mathematical interpretation (thus it should give more points), but it won't be linear anymore (just the same as the limit of several functions when x equals zero tends to infinite), but don't quote me on that, since I'm talking about what I remember about it and I don't have the functions right in front of me.
> 
> So, what DPI do you really need?
> 
> Well, usually you would be told that you need the DPI that won't hurt your performance with your game settings, according to the calculator.
> Having said that, it's much easier to change the game settings to improve the percieved and real in-game precision than get good quality tracking on high DPI.
> 
> My usual tip on that is to get to a comfortable DPI/Sensitivity combo where you're close to in-game 1 sensitivity and default pitch and yaw.
> 
> Now, back on topic, I keep trowing my monies on the screen and my Aurora isn't getting here.
> Why does this happen, bst? Why!?
> 
> I'll keep on waiting, I'm sure it will be worth it
Click to expand...

Today I learned that (if my mouse is tracking correctly) I can move things in increments smaller than 3 microns. That's fantastic!
Not that it's easy or I can do it every time, but it's not outside the realm of human capability.
(e.g. Take an 8,200 DPI mouse and move your mouse cursor one pixel at a time)

At least in practice, with the equipment in use today, 8,200 DPI is nowhere near outstripping your fine motor skills.


----------



## popups

I would say the earliest you could see BST's mouse is in 2 months time. To get it in your hand maybe closer to 3.

Sucks for anyone who needs a mouse now. You'll just have to buy something else.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

To take that a step further:
A. Shouldn't my mouse track motion in increments smaller than I can intentionally manage, just to insure high fidelity?
B. Even if the smallest tracked motion is far smaller than can intentionally be produced, the effects of tracking motion to such a fine degree would produce a much smoother visual motion on screen.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> Today I learned that (if my mouse is tracking correctly) I can move things in increments smaller than 3 microns. That's fantastic!
> Not that it's easy or I can do it every time, but it's not outside the realm of human capability.
> (e.g. Take an 8,200 DPI mouse and move your mouse cursor one pixel at a time)
> At least in practice, with the equipment in use today, 8,200 DPI is nowhere near outstripping your fine motor skills.


No, you can't.

Just the force required to let go of static friction is far too great for you to move "only" 3 microns. I think that at absolute best, you could get to a 100 micron precision, which is one tenth of a millimeter, in a constant fashion. And that's already giving you a huge benefit of the doubt.

On another note, what you see on screen has basically not much to do with DPI, which is probably what you're trying to imply with your statement.

As Skylit is repeating constantly - and plenty of people manages to miss even with his insistance -, DPI as it is implemented nowadays has no more effect on games than being another sensitivity scale.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> To take that a step further:
> A. Shouldn't my mouse track motion in increments smaller than I can intentionally manage, just to insure high fidelity?


That would have to do with polling rate, not with DPI.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> B. Even if the smallest tracked motion is far smaller than can intentionally be produced, the effects of tracking motion to such a fine degree would produce a much smoother visual motion on screen.


No.

See polling rate and screen refresh rate.


----------



## Skpe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I would say the earliest you could see BST's mouse is in 2 months time. To get it in your hand maybe closer to 3.
> Sucks for anyone who needs a mouse now. You'll just have to buy something else.


I am in this boat. The DA2013 is very expensive, at 70 euros, I would love to buy it if it was certain I could be happy with that large shape. The Zowie EC2 is smaller, but, again, 50-60 euros is still expensive and is probably not what I'd prefer given the choice of the Ninox Auora. Bst's mouse will be priced right, looks to be the right dimensions (not too large, light), has the internals to compare with DA/Zowie. But going against it is the 3 month wait..


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> Today I learned that (if my mouse is tracking correctly) I can move things in increments smaller than 3 microns. That's fantastic!
> Not that it's easy or I can do it every time, but it's not outside the realm of human capability.
> (e.g. Take an 8,200 DPI mouse and move your mouse cursor one pixel at a time)
> At least in practice, with the equipment in use today, 8,200 DPI is nowhere near outstripping your fine motor skills.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you can't.
> 
> Just the force required to let go of static friction is far too great for you to move "only" 3 microns. I think that at absolute best, you could get to a 100 micron precision, which is one tenth of a millimeter, in a constant fashion. And that's already giving you a huge benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...

Since the idea of moving something by hand in single digit micron increments does sound highly unlikely, I did some measuring and double checked my windows settings. "enhance pointer precision"... was _on_. *sharp dramatic music plays*
I will now hang my head in shame.









New test, with actual 1:1 mouse movement this time.

I measured the approximate distance both my Naga and G600 travel to move the mouse cursor across the screen (I knew something was up when my G600 initially measured an inch of movement). The Naga gets 0.497" for 2560 dots, giving 5,145 DPI (which is in the same ballpark as the advertised 5,600, good enough).
The G600 gets 0.301" for 2560 dots, giving a total of 8,504 DPI (again, these were just measured with a pen and a digital caliber, so it's only an approximate number).

So, my mice are now performing as advertised, and I try to move the mouse cursor one pixel at a time at 8,200 DPI. No dice. Ten pixels (about 30 microns of mouse movement?) is easy, five is doable with lots of concentration on my normal hand position, and at my highest concentration just pinching the thing I can just barely manage one pixel worth of movement after a few minutes of trying. In CS:GO it seems a little easier to get small increments of movement, but not significantly so.
I have to admit, It seems that I have by way of practical real world testing, come to the conclusion that 8,000 DPI is probably good enough for even the most fickle person.

BST, that'll be a good number to aim for down the road when everyone is using 4Kx2K monitors and you're looking for a new challenge.


----------



## Skylit

smh.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> smh.


Sorry.
I hope you don't feel that the conversation was a waste of time, everything that has been discussed is still very relevant.


----------



## nlmiller0015

I dont fall for the high dpi stuff it never helped me in any way im a 400 - 800 dpi person. Now for my question since dpi is sensitivity and in game selectivity is speed. im guessing 800 dpi and 2 sens is less sensitive than 1600 and 1 sense even though there the same in 3360 right?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> People assuming they need a certain DPI value, when it fact, anything precision/pixel skip related is mere yaw and pitch @ x res.
> 
> Emphasis on my original statement. DPI is only sensitivity. Fast or slow, personal preference.


Oh, I thought DPI affected how many angles you got in an FPS game. EDIT: as long as your cm/360 remains the same.
eg:
2 x 0.022 = 0.044 (sensitivity x m_yaw)
360 / 0.044 = 8181.82 (total game units in 360 degrees)
8181.82 / 360 = 22.73 (game units per 1 degree of 360)
400 / 22.73 = 17.6 (game units per inch for 400 DPI)
360 / 17.6 = 20.5 inches for a 360 turn

Compared to:
1 x 0.022 = 0.044 (sensitivity x m_yaw)
360 / 0.022 = 16363.63 (total game units in 360 degrees)
16363.63 / 360 = 45.45 (game units per 1 degree of 360)
800 / 45.45 = 17.6 (game units per inch for 800 DPI)
360 / 17.6 = 20.5 inches for a 360 turn

So at the same cm/360, you get more game units per 1 degree of 360. For example if you only got 1 game unit for every degree, it'd suck. Like if you tried to get the same cm/360 with 50 DPI:

16 x 0.022 = 0.352
360 / 0.352 = 1022.72 (total game units in 360 degrees)
1022.72 / 360 = 2.8 (game units per 1 degree of 360)
50 / 2.8 = 17.6 (game units per inch for 50 DPI)
360 / 17.6 = 20.5 inches for a 360 turn

I think the point I'm trying to make is, if you could only select DPI on the mouse, and there were no other ways to change sensitivity in windows or in game etc, I'd be in 100% agreement with you and I'd see exactly what you mean. But since you can change the sensitivity in game, and there isn't a mouse out there which has enough native steps to allow fine control, meaning you have to use the in game sensitivity if you don't have the correct native DPI step available, it means you can set a value which will skip pixels at the wrong DPI. I'm not trying to argue this point or anything, but just explaining how I see it, and hopefully you can tell me where I'm going wrong in my understanding of it.


----------



## bst

Trying to put it in a more concise way:

In Quake Live:

Sensitivity 10 @ 500 DPI = skipping pixels
Sensitivity 2.5 @ 2000 DPI = not skipping pixels

Both yield the same cm/360, but using 2000 DPI at a lower sensitivity allows me to be more precise. So the way I interpret the above, is that DPI is not just sensitivity, its 1:1 sensitivity, so going above it in-game can cause loss of available precision.

So thats why I said that there is a point where you can have not enough DPI for your cm/360, and also that you can have more than you need (taking into account a lot of mice don't perform quite as well at higher DPI).


----------



## bst

I think tbh, Skylit, you can sometimes be a bit too concise, just seems to me that you say things but leave out important bits of info, so what you say can be taken completely the wrong way. Not that I or anyone else never does it, its just that it seems you do it a lot







I'm not having a go at you or anything, its just that sometimes I really wish you'd write that extra sentence which would make your points so much easier to understand ;D


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Oh, I thought DPI affected how many angles you got in an FPS game.
> eg:
> 2 x 0.022 = 0.044 (sensitivity x m_yaw)
> 360 / 0.044 = 8181.82 (total game units in 360 degrees)
> 8181.82 / 360 = 22.73 (game units per 1 degree of 360)
> 400 / 22.73 = 17.6 (game units per inch for 400 DPI)
> 360 / 17.6 = 20.5 inches for a 360 turn
> Compared to:
> 1 x 0.022 = 0.044 (sensitivity x m_yaw)
> 360 / 0.022 = 16363.63 (total game units in 360 degrees)
> 16363.63 / 360 = 45.45 (game units per 1 degree of 360)
> 800 / 45.45 = 17.6 (game units per inch for 800 DPI)
> 360 / 17.6 = 20.5 inches for a 360 turn
> So at the same cm/360, you get more game units per 1 degree of 360. For example if you only got 1 game unit for every degree, it'd suck. Like if you tried to get the same cm/360 with 50 DPI:
> 16 x 0.022 = 0.352
> 360 / 0.352 = 1022.72 (total game units in 360 degrees)
> 1022.72 / 360 = 2.8 (game units per 1 degree of 360)
> 50 / 2.8 = 17.6 (game units per inch for 50 DPI)
> 360 / 17.6 = 20.5 inches for a 360 turn
> I think the point I'm trying to make is, if you could only select DPI on the mouse, and there were no other ways to change sensitivity in windows or in game etc, I'd be in 100% agreement with you and I'd see exactly what you mean. But since you can change the sensitivity in game, and there isn't a mouse out there which has enough native steps to allow fine control, meaning you have to use the in game sensitivity if you don't have the correct native DPI step available, it means you can set a value which will skip pixels at the wrong DPI. I'm not trying to argue this point or anything, but just explaining how I see it, and hopefully you can tell me where I'm going wrong in my understanding of it.


You just proved that it is in-game settings that can give you higher precision, by lowering in-game sensitivity parameters.

Whether or not you compensate with higher DPI is irrelevant, it's not the DPI that doubles the in-game angles. Besides, you just proved that lower sensitivities ( up to a certain point ) are more precise.

In any event, there's no proof in your statements that higher DPI alone is beneficial.

I'll counter-prove you :
Quake live, 2000 DPI, 10 in-game sens. Pixel skipping?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> I'll counter-prove you :
> Quake live, 2000 DPI, 10 in-game sens. Pixel skipping?


I don't think that counter proves anything, because the cm/360 is different. The way it looks to me is: given the same cm/360, higher DPI is more precise - it allows you to set those lower in game settings and keep the same cm/360.


----------



## nonamed

@bst

When mouse wil be finally released and ready to ship to Europe ??


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> given the same cm/360, higher DPI is more precise - it allows you to set those lower in game settings and keep the same cm/360.


I dont know if i am right, but from my ingame experience resolution is the limiting factor for the number of angles available as you cant aim between pixels, so there must be a point where you reach the maximum useful dpi.


----------



## DavidCS

yes I think your right


----------



## DavidCS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nlmiller0015*
> 
> I dont fall for the high dpi stuff it never helped me in any way im a 400 - 800 dpi person. Now for my question since dpi is sensitivity and in game selectivity is speed. im guessing 800 dpi and 2 sens is less sensitive than 1600 and 1 sense even though there the same in 3360 right?


yes i think your right


----------



## Skylit

Suppose I do leave out a lot of information, though it seems as if DeMS' basic concept is already confusing most. Maybe you can understand why I don't bother with the little things 

I wasn't disagreeing with ILoveHighDPI or anyone else on the precision/pixel-skip portion of the subject matter. (Though I did think he's using the calculator wrong as HOR+ res isn't accounted for). I was simply disagreeing with the excessive use of "need" or claims that higher DPI aids precision, because it don't.

Not the best examples but:

3 sensitivity x 0.022 (0.066) @ 1024x768 90 FOV = 1.5 sensitivity x 0.022 (0.033) @ 2048x1536 90 FOV.

Pick any DPI value you want. Precision counts and pixel accuracy will remain identical. Of course at this point, you're limited by hardware (which brings us back to CPates post).

Or 2D: 6/11 on windows with EPP off.. and... done. Again limited by hardware.

Honestly speaking.. there's way too much I could go on about. Way too many factors to account for... I can see why people such as Glymbol don't want to sit here repeating themselves =x

Edit: I'm also not saying that you have to use those sensitivity settings either. Just values I know work.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I don't think that counter proves anything, because the cm/360 is different. The way it looks to me is: given the same cm/360, higher DPI is more precise - it allows you to set those lower in game settings and keep the same cm/360.


Wrong.

It proves that at the same DPI, you get double the angles to aim at, so you get an increase of precision on the very same DPI step.

What I've been trying to explain, is that any extra precision a sensor with a higher DPI might give, gets translated to extra counts once the info passes trough the DSP/MCU, effectively transforming precision into sensitivity.

Hence why, even if for clarity's sake I only use DPI on this thread, in general I only use the DPI term when talking about sensors, and CPI term when talking about overall mice, and why people gets confused about it all the time.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> I dont know if i am right, but from my ingame experience resolution is the limiting factor for the number of angles available as you cant aim between pixels, so there must be a point where you reach the maximum useful dpi.


Yes and no.

Resolution is the phyisical barrier where the player can't aim more precisely, but that doesn't mean that the game itself can't provide more than one angle per pixel (depends on engine implementation too).


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> 3 sensitivity x 0.022 (0.066) @ 1024x768 90 FOV = 1.5 sensitivity x 0.022 (0.033) @ 2048x1536 90 FOV.
> 
> Pick any DPI value you want. Precision counts and pixel accuracy will remain identical. Of course at this point, you're limited by hardware (which brings us back to CPates post).


Ahh right, yes, I see exactly what you're trying to de-bunk now.

Thats the problem with these kinds of discussions, and why I also don't really like them, lol. I agree with what you said - theres so many different ways of looking at it, and so many factors, that even the point someone is trying to make is confused xD

Basically I was talking in the context of keeping the same cm/360, but you and DeMs aren't. Thats why I said higher DPI gives you more game angles [given the cm/360 remains the same]









Yeah, in an ideal world the hardware would allow us to select DPI in 0.01 steps or something like that, and we wouldn't need to worry about setting our sensitivity in game, we could do it all through the hardware (like we are forced to do in windows for 1:1).


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Ahh right, yes, I see exactly what you're trying to de-bunk now.
> Thats the problem with these kinds of discussions, and why I also don't really like them, lol. I agree with what you said - theres so many different ways of looking at it, and so many factors, that even the point someone is trying to make is confused xD


We're not even getting technical here








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Basically I was talking in the context of keeping the same cm/360, but you and DeMS aren't. Thats why I said higher DPI gives you more game angles [given the cm/360 remains the same]


Still, higher DPI won't give you more game angles by default, only if you get higher DPI and lower your in-game sensitivity.

But lowering your in-game sensitivity _is_ what will give you more angles by default


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> We're not even getting technical here


I never said we were, you've misunderstood me








I meant because the topic can be complicated and technical, everyone is trying to dumb it down in their own way, and people are misunderstanding each other because of it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> Still, higher DPI won't give you more game angles by default, only if you get higher DPI and lower your in-game sensitivity.
> But lowering your in-game sensitivity _is_ what will give you more angles by default


"only if you get higher DPI and lower your in-game sensitivity", which is exactly the context I was talking in.

If I said DPI is what gives you more game angles, I meant it in the context of using the same cm/360. But you have read it like I am saying DPI by itself gives you more game angles.

If you keep the same cm/360 and increase your DPI, naturally your in game sensitivity has to be lowered, and naturally the result is more game angles.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nonamed*
> 
> @bst
> When mouse wil be finally released and ready to ship to Europe ??


Hopefully at the beginning of march, I'm just quoting what the factory told me though. In development they got it wrong (which I can understand), but this is a different stage now, certification and manufacturing. There could still be some delays, but should be less likely (or as severe) than it was when it was in development.


----------



## Skylit

Input methods are also fun, but that's a topic for another day.









If I were to recommend anything, it would be setting DPI to a comfortable and at least controllable value on 2D. There should be no issue translating this into 3D perpective without pixel skiping or better lack of angle accuracy. Though many factors are to account for ~

It's unfortunate that most quake based games still default with sensitivity values optimal for the golden age of 8x6 resolutions. I wish developers would either halve the sensitivity multiplier (by default) or yaw and pitch values (0.022 > 0.011) from the start.

Back in CSGO Beta, I assumed they would do this as default sensitivity was doubled from 3.0 (CS1.6, CSS) to 6.0, but 0.0222 yaw/pitch values remained.

Couldn't this be changed manually? Nope. Sadly, pitch is locked (Likely to avoid scripting abuse)


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I never said we were, you've misunderstood me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I meant because the topic can be complicated and technical, everyone is trying to dumb it down in their own way, and people are misunderstanding each other because of it.
> "only if you get higher DPI and lower your in-game sensitivity", which is exactly the context I was talking in.
> If I said DPI is what gives you more game angles, I meant it in the context of using the same cm/360. But you have read it like I am saying DPI by itself gives you more game angles.
> If you keep the same cm/360 and increase your DPI, naturally your in game sensitivity has to be lowered, and naturally the result is more game angles.


Yes, but you know how forum life is.

People reads whatever part they see fit of a post and they go nuts repeating partial truths all over the place.

In the context of keeping cm/360 sensitivity, yes, you get more angles the lower your in-game sensitivity settings are, but DPI only plays a role on a 1:1 sensitivity multiplier fashion, it doesn't modify your angles as this is purely an in-game phenomenon, thus, by itself, DPI doesn't do much in regards to precision, which is the topic people was discussing.

So, back to basics, refering to FPS :

- You get more precision the lower your in-game settings are (don't get below 1 sensitivity though).
- You can compensate if your in-game settings are high by lowering them and setting higher DPI (provided the support for this higher DPI suits your gamestyle).
- DPI by itself and once in game is no more than a sensitivity magnitude/multiplier.
- More DPI won't equal to more precision unless you lower your in-game settings to compensate, at which point any added precision will be due to the game's doing.

In any event, it's a topic beaten to death and that anyone who knows to use the search bar will get all the answers he wants in a mere half an hour.

Going back to your mouse, any chances of knowing whether the underside of the mouse is flat, or does it have the small cavities for the mouse skates?
I'm usually sticking different mouse skates on my mice, and a flat underside would be desireable


----------



## bst

Yeah







I completely agree with and understand what you're saying in that post. woohoo! xD
This is a nice forum though, everyone's nice. polite and chilled out for the most part.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> Going back to your mouse, any chances of knowing whether the underside of the mouse is flat, or does it have the small cavities for the mouse skates?
> I'm usually sticking different mouse skates on my mice, and a flat underside would be desireable


No it doesn't have cavities, it has raised borders for the mouse feet, which if you removed with a razor or sandpaper would leave a flat surface.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> - You get more precision the lower your in-game settings are (don't get below 1 sensitivity though).


I'm sure below 1 is fine or won't cause any major calculation issues. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Only really used "0.5" a couple years back ^^


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yeah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with and understand what you're saying in that post. woohoo! xD
> This is a nice forum though, everyone's nice. polite and chilled out for the most part.
> No it doesn't have cavities, it has raised borders for the mouse feet, which if you removed with a razor or sandpaper would leave a flat surface.


Great stuff then, I'll keep my cutter close when easter holidays come (and then I'll be the whole holidays in the hospital recovering my finger xD).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I'm sure below 1 is fine or won't cause any major calculation issues. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Let's just put it like that :

The ways of maths can be unfathomable


----------



## bst

What is your background and occupations btw, DeMS and Skylit? Do you both work in the gaming or peripheral industry?


----------



## Skylit

Student.


----------



## DeMS

CS student.


----------



## Skpe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> And that is, not even getting into the MCU capabilites, that would be the raw potential precision if it works exactly like that (which it shouldn't at 100%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> Once you get trough the MCU and the OS, which should hamper the raw precision by either discarding counts, cleaning the "signal", adding and stacking counts up, we get to the game's transformations to make the mouse movement translated to the inverse world matrix. When you're on the game, specially on a FPS, you have a finite number of spots your mouse can "aim to", which is basically controlled by your in-game sensitivity, pitch and yaw values. Being blunt here, you'll have more "spots you can aim to" the lower your in-game sensitivity is, with a limit on 1. Anything lower than 1 will follow the mathematical interpretation (thus it should give more points), but it won't be linear anymore (just the same as the limit of several functions when x equals zero tends to infinite), but don't quote me on that, since I'm talking about what I remember about it and I don't have the functions right in front of me.
> 
> I'll keep on waiting, I'm sure it will be worth it


Thanks, looks like another reader with the appropriate out look on DPI/Sensitivity.







You worded everything a little bit better than I ever can.

But I have a slight query here about "with a limit on 1". Wouldn't you suggest that the mathematical functions used to generate such an ingame matrix are not limited to a factor of 1 and aren't interpreting values below it (to a point), I'd have assumed that "1" is as much a factor as using 0.8 or 0.5 or 1.5 or 1.8. It's only until we hit a threshold, closer to 0, we could start to see non linear interpretations for game angles. Perhaps due to rounding errors, limits on how much it can carry over, etc. We'll have to make an assumption at what point this occurs, somewhere below 0.1, for example. Seeing as you comically noted the units of measurements a hand can produce, I'm not about to find out. But just to be clear, I'll assume its pretty safe to bet that 0.2 through to 1 is as good as 1 for linear increases in accuracy for increasing game angles.

It's the other factors that keep me up at night... ^^


----------



## Bullveyr

I'm always surprised that some people are still willing to discuss this topic every couple of weeks.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skpe*
> 
> Thanks, looks like another reader with the appropriate out look on DPI/Sensitivity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You worded everything a little bit better than I ever can.
> But I have a slight query here about "with a limit on 1". Wouldn't you suggest that the mathematical functions used to generate such an ingame matrix are not limited to a factor of 1 and aren't interpreting values below it (to a point), I'd have assumed that "1" is as much a factor as using 0.8 or 0.5 or 1.5 or 1.8. It's only until we hit a threshold, closer to 0, we could start to see non linear interpretations for game angles. Perhaps due to rounding errors, limits on how much it can carry over, etc. We'll have to make an assumption at what point this occurs, somewhere below 0.1, for example. Seeing as you comically noted the units of measurements a hand can produce, I'm not about to find out. But just to be clear, I'll assume its pretty safe to bet that 0.2 through to 1 is as good as 1 for linear increases in accuracy for increasing game angles.
> It's the other factors that keep me up at night... ^^


The limit on 1 is because if you do mathematical limits on some functions (specially exponentials, logarithms, on divisions and such), below 1 there can be weird behaviors on a certain set of operations, so to keep it safe and independant on implementations, I usually recommend not setting it lower than 1.

However, different game engines implement it in a different fashion, so it's possible that under 1 is very usable and nice on your specific game, but it might add accel or other tracking bugs on diferent implementations. There's a reason, for example, why Valve blocked anything lower than 1 on their games.

So, as a rule of thumb, it's best to stay around 1, but not below.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*
> 
> I'm always surprised that some people are still willing to discuss this topic every couple of weeks.


I find it amusing and disturbing at the same time. If the search bar was red and glowing, maybe we wouldn't have this topic poping up all the time ... Or a sticky explaining it?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*
> 
> I'm always surprised that some people are still willing to discuss this topic every couple of weeks.


I would like to try and gather all of this information into a web page, then whenever the question comes up, people can be directed to it. Something that starts off fairly simple summary, and then expands on it with as much detail as possible. Not sure how well it'd work, but it could save time and become fairly common knowledge eventually. It'd just be nice to have something out there which has had a bit of time spent on it to make it easily understandable and is 100% correct, since forum posts are usually done pretty quickly, and then forgotten about, and diluted by lots of other posts.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> Or a sticky explaining it?


No.. no... don't make a sticky here. I want to put it on my website so I can drive people to it for eternity xD lol


----------



## nonamed

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> No.. no... don't make a sticky here. I want to put it on my website so I can drive people to it for eternity xD lol


When it will be finally released in EU ? :/


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nonamed*
> 
> When it will be finally released in EU ? :/


http://www.overclock.net/t/1240739/bsts-gaming-mouse/520#post_18837177

Don't blame you for not seeing it amongst all the other posts, hehe ;D


----------



## nonamed

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1240739/bsts-gaming-mouse/520#post_18837177
> Don't blame you for not seeing it amongst all the other posts, hehe ;D


hehe did not get notification . Regards


----------



## Skpe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> The limit on 1 is because if you do mathematical limits on some functions (specially exponentials, logarithms, on divisions and such), below 1 there can be weird behaviors on a certain set of operations, so to keep it safe and independant on implementations, I usually recommend not setting it lower than 1.
> So, as a rule of thumb, it's best to stay around 1, but not below.


I guess thats where our differences may lie, I've not encountered a game that had problems with lower than 1 that I measured. I currently play Shootmania (new game in beta) and it starts you off below 1 on default, with the slider going from 0.1 to 10. Although they give you no indication about how input is handled or any configs to edit.


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I would like to try and gather all of this information into a web page, then whenever the question comes up, people can be directed to it.


Have you seen this topic? (expand + at the bottom of first post).
http://www.overclock.net/t/1251156/an-overview-of-mouse-technology

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> You suggest we improve mouse accuracy by continually increasing stability at high speed in order to accommodate a 1,000cm/360 turning rate?


No. I meant: instead of decreasing sensitivity and increasing DPI (to maintain the same cm/360 distance), you should just decrease sensitivity alone. Of course this will change your cm/360 but it will help aiming accurately, especially if you are playing at 5 or 10 cm/360. This will not only set lower turning angle, so there will be more possible positions to aim, but also ensure that you can actually physically make use of it.

for example:

your method
switching these settings:
sensitivity 2 @ 4000 DPI => ~5.2 cm/360 and 6.35 micrometer for 0.044 degree turn
to these:
sensitivity 1 @ 8000 DPI => ~5.2 cm/360 and 3.175 micrometer for 0.022 degree turn

You gain "precision" twice but it's also two times harder to use this "precision" gained in game. Just like DeMS said, 6.35 micrometer is way too small distance to move a mouse, not to mention 3.175...

the other way (or: why "low sens" style gives better precision and acurracy and why it's not just preference)
change to these instead:
sensitivity 1 @ 4000 DPI => ~10.4 cm/360 and 6.35 micrometer for 0.022 degree turn
The same precision gain as above but it isn't any harder to utilize than before.

Because moving mouse by micrometers is insane, I'd suggest:
sensitivity 1 @ 1000 DPI => ~41.6 cm/360 and 25.4 micrometer for 0.022 degree turn
Right now you should reach the point when you are physically able* to take advantage of all this in game "precision".

* 25.4 micrometer = 0.0254 mm => take one millimeter, divide it by (almost) 40 equal parts and aim at one of them with a mouse

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> So, someone using a turning rate of 100cm per 360 at 400 DPI will have exactly the same in game accuracy (or, in game sensitivity, the number of steps in your 360 degree rotation) as someone using a turning rate of 10cm per 360 at 4,000 DPI. Then, if the game lets you move the in game sensitivity low enough while keeping 1:1 tracking, and if you have a mouse with a native 8,000 DPI sensor that is also free of the common issues seen today, you can double your in game accuracy (sensitivity) with no loss in tracking reliability.
> To go one step further, if a game engine let you keep 1:1 tracking to an extremely low in game sensitivity, and you had a theoretical "perfect mouse" the person using a 100cm per 360 turning rate could also use an 8,000 DPI mouse, and would benefit from it.


I would say the person with 100 cm/360 would have the same "precision" but a lot more accuracy, and yes he would probably benefit from more DPI (800 would be enough, not 8000).


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> While human hand's precision is still not thoroughly studied and tested to get specific numbers on what's enough, I am particularly sure that, (even if repeating myself too many times, I need to push that) given that definition of DPI holds true, 400 DPI is more precise than most humans can achieve without aid/tools, specifically taking into account that we're still talking about using a mouse, a device which weights tens of grams, which has a static friction coefficient and a dynamic friction coefficient.


I would think that human fine motor control would be limited by the fact that the nervous system is quite noisy, also the mechanics of muscles creates difficulties but I would think that is secondary. The friction law you learn in basic physics is one of the most abused approximations ever, I don't think professors stress just how rough of an approximation it is (Never ever use it for tires its completely wrong). At micrometer scales the mouse skates would not even move across the pad, any movement would probably be because of elasticity in the materials (I'm assuming the use of common cloth mousepads and a force normal to the pad of at least g*(mouse mass)) .

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> The limit on 1 is because if you do mathematical limits on some functions (specially exponentials, logarithms, on divisions and such), below 1 there can be weird behaviors on a certain set of operations, so to keep it safe and independant on implementations, I usually recommend not setting it lower than 1.
> However, different game engines implement it in a different fashion, so it's possible that under 1 is very usable and nice on your specific game, but it might add accel or other tracking bugs on diferent implementations. There's a reason, for example, why Valve blocked anything lower than 1 on their games.
> So, as a rule of thumb, it's best to stay around 1, but not below.
> I find it amusing and disturbing at the same time. If the search bar was red and glowing, maybe we wouldn't have this topic poping up all the time ... Or a sticky explaining it?


Can you provide examples or links to examples of these implementations, since at least in the quake type games (quake, cs, css, csgo) I can't see what the problem would be with using less than 1 (unless you are using a value so low and a CPI so high you run into floating point precision issues). Also the only valve game that I know of that does not let you use <1 is CS 1.6 (1.6 has other mousing problems as well).


----------



## popups

I just set my sensitivity to 1, switch through the CPI steps to find what feels good and then bump my sensitivity or yaw in which ever direction is needed. I use two styles: one that requires two swipes of my mouse pad to do a 360 and the other that requires 2 1/2 swipes for a 360. Works for me without all this super science. I don't use a high resolution though because 99% of monitors that have a higher resolution suck.

I would really like native 500 and native 1000 CPI as I think that would help me personally more than 400 and 800 would. It sucks than I can't drop CS's pitch below 0.022. That would help a lot if I could.

I can wait for the Ninox mice because I have a few mice now. They all have their flaws. I just use which ever one suits the mouse pad I want to use that day. What I can't wait for is a new mold to come about from BST. If that ever happens. I have a million suggestions on that. Though the best thing is to make an ambidextrous/symmetrical one and an ergonomic one.

BST what about your mouse pads? Have you got any to test with your latest 3050 or 3090? It seems like certain dyes and materials would lower your LOD on a black pad or raise it. Same with red or some other color. A lighter blue might give you the same performance of black with slightly lower LOD. The weave changes a lot too.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> I would think that human fine motor control would be limited by the fact that the nervous system is quite noisy, also the mechanics of muscles creates difficulties but I would think that is secondary. The friction law you learn in basic physics is one of the most abused approximations ever, I don't think professors stress just how rough of an approximation it is (Never ever use it for tires its completely wrong). At micrometer scales the mouse skates would not even move across the pad, any movement would probably be because of elasticity in the materials (I'm assuming the use of common cloth mousepads and a force normal to the pad of at least g*(mouse mass)) .


That's exactly my point.

Not only there's not enough precision due to the fact we're human, thus we have a (rather small) range where we can operate in a reliable fashion, but also there's not enough precision because static friction is higher than dynamic one, so whenever we defeat the static friction, we would have to counter the force applied instantly, and, at best, it is 20ms of reaction time until we would apply it, thus we would miss the micrometer mark.

In any event, in a basic fashion :
- Human motor system is not as precise.
- Static friction coefficient should be almost non-existant in order to be able to, physiology permitting (so, having infinite precision on your hand), move micrometers at the time.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> Can you provide examples or links to examples of these implementations, since at least in the quake type games (quake, cs, css, csgo) I can't see what the problem would be with using less than 1 (unless you are using a value so low and a CPI so high you run into floating point precision issues). Also the only valve game that I know of that does not let you use <1 is CS 1.6 (1.6 has other mousing problems as well).


CS 1.6, CSS and pretty much any source engine at least used to reset the sensitivity value if it was less than 1.

I know because that was one of the big problems I had with the engine, and no amount of tweaking would allow me to play with my sensitivity.

It seems that at least CS:GO doesn't have this anymore, so chances are this is fixed aswell on CSS.

On other Quake3-derivative games, my experience is that anything under 1 gives a slight "acceleration" feeling, if it can be explained as such.

However, it still holds true that some mathematical operations and functions don't like decimals, and usually you will get more precision or faster processing with integers than decimals, so the general rule of thumb should be to avoid anything that could cause problems.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> I know because that was one of the big problems I had with the engine, and no amount of tweaking would allow me to play with my sensitivity.
> It seems that at least CS:GO doesn't have this anymore, so chances are this is fixed aswell on CSS.
> On other Quake3-derivative games, my experience is that anything under 1 gives a slight "acceleration" feeling, if it can be explained as such.
> However, it still holds true that some mathematical operations and functions don't like decimals, and usually you will get more precision or faster processing with integers than decimals, so the general rule of thumb should be to avoid anything that could cause problems.


You could drop below 1 on Source engine for as long as I can remember. CS1.6 would always reset like many have indicated.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> You could drop below 1 on Source engine for as long as I can remember. CS1.6 would always reset like many have indicated.


Idk, source always was problematic to me in this regard.

Then again, I used to play CSS _many_ years ago, and I'm talking about feeling. I did not and I do not claim that I have measured it.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> That's exactly my point.
> Not only there's not enough precision due to the fact we're human, thus we have a (rather small) range where we can operate in a reliable fashion, but also there's not enough precision because static friction is higher than dynamic one, so whenever we defeat the static friction, we would have to counter the force applied instantly, and, at best, it is 20ms of reaction time until we would apply it, thus we would miss the micrometer mark.
> In any event, in a basic fashion :
> - Human motor system is not as precise.
> - Static friction coefficient should be almost non-existant in order to be able to, physiology permitting (so, having infinite precision on your hand), move micrometers at the time.
> CS 1.6, CSS and pretty much any source engine at least used to reset the sensitivity value if it was less than 1.
> I know because that was one of the big problems I had with the engine, and no amount of tweaking would allow me to play with my sensitivity.
> It seems that at least CS:GO doesn't have this anymore, so chances are this is fixed aswell on CSS.
> On other Quake3-derivative games, my experience is that anything under 1 gives a slight "acceleration" feeling, if it can be explained as such.
> However, it still holds true that some mathematical operations and functions don't like decimals, and usually you will get more precision or faster processing with integers than decimals, so the general rule of thumb should be to avoid anything that could cause problems.


TF2 let you set the sensitivity to lower values than 1 via config, although not in-game. At least it was like that at release. I think today you can even set it to values lower than 1 from the menu. I also never experienced any troubles with that @ 0.4 and 1800 CPI.


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It sucks than I can't drop CS's pitch below 0.022. That would help a lot if I could.


Well, in CS1.6 you can't go below sensitivity 1.0 and can't change m_pitch below 0.022 but there's a way to bypass this. There's a setting named default_fov, it's normally 90 but you are free to change it. Actually this fov setting in CS1.6 changes sensitivity. It works like this:

Code:



Code:


                                                   90     <= here most probably
min angle = sensitivity * m_yaw (or m_pitch) * -----------    goes current fov
                                               default_fov

I think this was made to change sensitivity when zoomed so it would be scaled down to maintain precision.

Setting different default_fov doesn't change your actual fov in game, so the only effect is sensitivity change.

For example if you'd like to have sensitivity 0.75, use these settings:
sensitivity 1.0
default_fov 120 (because 90 / 120 = 0.75)

Code:



Code:


                            90
min angle = 1.0 * 0.022 * ----- = 1.0 * 0.022 * 0.75 = 0.0165 degree angle
                           120

Two downsides to this method:
a) real fov in game will be always 90 except when you die, the moments before you are taken to spectator mode fov will be messed,
b) your max turning speed is still the same as with whatever is set in Windows so for 1800 CPI @ 6/11 and 800x600 @ 100 FPS it's laughable 0.56 m/s (this means default_fov can't be used to achieve insane precision in CS1.6 like ILoveHighDPI would like to, because you'll end with very low max speed).


----------



## Skylit

Quite strange as default_fov in TFC actually changes FOV, but I'm not sure if it changes sensitivity.

Have to check~


----------



## wo1fwood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> ...Or a sticky explaining it?


Sometimes I think I fly a little too under the radar...


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> Well, in CS1.6 you can't go below sensitivity 1.0 and can't change m_pitch below 0.022 but there's a way to bypass this. There's a setting named default_fov, it's normally 90 but you are free to change it. Actually this fov setting in CS1.6 changes sensitivity. It works like this:


Hmm... This looks promising.

Out of curiosity, what about in CS:GO? Seems to be locked at 0.022 also, although you can set sensitivity below 1. I guess you could just set sensitivity below 1 and raise yaw instead of changing pitch. I haven't messed with it to much yet.


----------



## Finwens

What will be the price of it? Sorry if I missed this information. Also, are you going to ship to Brazil?

Looking forward to this mouse, the right button of my DA is kinda broken and I need to replace it asap.


----------



## wo1fwood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Hmm... This looks promising.
> Out of curiosity, what about in CS:GO? Seems to be locked at 0.022 also, although you can set sensitivity below 1. I guess you could just set sensitivity below 1 and raise yaw instead of changing pitch. I haven't messed with it to much yet.


iirc yaw/pitch values are locked in the Source engine and cannot be adjusted unless you enable sv_cheats (which ofc you can't use on secured servers). I actually use .6 sens and .5 zoom and 800 CPI, and find that this sized radian value feels pretty good for me right now.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wo1fwood*
> 
> iirc yaw/pitch values are locked in the Source engine and cannot be adjusted unless you enable sv_cheats (which ofc you can't use on secured servers). I actually use .6 sens and .5 zoom and 800 CPI, and find that this sized radian value feels pretty good for me right now.


Pitch is locked by the engine I guess but you can change the yaw. Will that get you banned if you do? I don't know.


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> TF2 let you set the sensitivity to lower values than 1 via config, although not in-game. At least it was like that at release. I think today you can even set it to values lower than 1 from the menu. I also never experienced any troubles with that @ 0.4 and 1800 CPI.


TF2 shipped with the Orange Box Source's version, which was essentially a much evolved engine from what was seen in HL2 and CSS on release. Since Valve is always updating their games and Steam is "forcing" the updates, we won't be able to check it out anymore, yet afaik, before CSS was ported to the Orange Box Source's version, sensitivity was locked. That's several years ago, so I should've checked, but currently I have no time, so it was purely an exercise of remembering what happened back when I played it - though I could be wrong









I will look up what the exact sensitivity functions that quake-q3 games use during the week and I'll post back whenever I have them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wo1fwood*
> 
> Sometimes I think I fly a little too under the radar...


Awwww indeed <3


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> I will look up what the exact sensitivity functions that quake-q3 games use during the week and I'll post back whenever I have them.


In Q3 you have a lot of mouse options, but Quake Live has even more. In all quakes you can change the m_pitch and m_yaw to whatever you want, and use any sensitivity value you like. In QL you also have:

cl_mouseaccel x (amount of linear accel)
cl_mouseaceloffset x (speed of mouse movement at which accel kicks in)
cl_mouseaccelpower x (power value of the accel curve)
cl_mousesenscap x (sensitivity value at which accel caps off)
m_filter x (basically its interpolation for extra smoothness, adds lag so many don't use it)
cg_zoomSensitivity x (sensitivity for when you zoom in)
cg_zoomfov x (zoom fov value)

Also you can do things like:
alias +noaccel "+attack;cl_mouseaccel .03"
alias -noaccel "-attack;cl_mouseaccel .095"
alias +lowsens "+speed;cl_mouseaccel .03"
alias -lowsens "-speed;cl_mouseaccel .095"
alias +lowsensc "+movedown;cl_mouseaccel .03"
alias -lowsensc "-movedown;cl_mouseaccel .095"
bind MOUSE1 "+noaccel"
bind MOUSE4 "+lowsens"
bind KP_DEL "+lowsensc"

Which will lower accel whenever you hold down fire, crouch or walk (something I am messing around with atm). Ofc you could also lower or increase your sensitivity or do lots of other things with that. There isn't 100% freedom though as some things are cheat protected, but you can do most things you could think of. I really like it


----------



## DeMS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> In Q3 you have a lot of mouse options, but Quake Live has even more. In all quakes you can change the m_pitch and m_yaw to whatever you want, and use any sensitivity value you like. In QL you also have:
> cl_mouseaccel x (amount of linear accel)
> cl_mouseaceloffset x (speed of mouse movement at which accel kicks in)
> cl_mouseaccelpower x (power value of the accel curve)
> cl_mousesenscap x (sensitivity value at which accel caps off)
> m_filter x (basically its interpolation for extra smoothness, adds lag so many don't use it)
> cg_zoomSensitivity x (sensitivity for when you zoom in)
> cg_zoomfov x (zoom fov value)
> Also you can do things like:
> alias +noaccel "+attack;cl_mouseaccel .03"
> alias -noaccel "-attack;cl_mouseaccel .095"
> alias +lowsens "+speed;cl_mouseaccel .03"
> alias -lowsens "-speed;cl_mouseaccel .095"
> alias +lowsensc "+movedown;cl_mouseaccel .03"
> alias -lowsensc "-movedown;cl_mouseaccel .095"
> bind MOUSE1 "+noaccel"
> bind MOUSE4 "+lowsens"
> bind KP_DEL "+lowsensc"
> Which will lower accel whenever you hold down fire, crouch or walk (something I am messing around with atm). Ofc you could also lower or increase your sensitivity or do lots of other things with that. There isn't 100% freedom though as some things are cheat protected, but you can do most things you could think of. I really like it


I only really meant about the sensitivity function, how it is implemented









But I guess it'll be handy to know all those functions once I get to swim on the -Q3's- source code.


----------



## zulk

Yeah in css you can use an in game sensitivity of below 1, I was using about .7 or .6 on 800Dpi when I was using the spawn. I don't remember about 1.6 much though.


----------



## popups

In 1.6 you are limited to 1 sensitivity and m_pitch of 0.022.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> I only really meant about the sensitivity function, how it is implemented
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I guess it'll be handy to know all those functions once I get to swim on the -Q3's- source code.


Yeah, I wasn't sure if you meant that or not, so since the general conversation was about sensitivity and m_pitch etc, I thought I'd share what I know about what Q3/QL lets you do. I had a quick look for it because I had a conversation a few years ago about it with someone, and the main part was posted in there, but I couldn't find it as quick as I wanted to ;D

Edit: was interested to see it again so looked it up:
https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena/blob/master/code/win32/win_input.c
https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena/blob/master/code/client/cl_input.c
Might be more to it but I found the bits I wanted, I'm not really an expert in programming ;D

I wouldn't mind adding that kind of accel thats on line 437 of cl_input.c to mouse drivers, its really nice in QL/Q3. It'd be so good to be able to use it in other games! I used to use something called moudrv which adds it, but you can't use the proper mouse drivers then


----------



## zulk

I have actually never seen anyone actually use more than 800 dpi, especially people who play competitively, most use about a sensitivity of 400-500 some use 800 and a very minor number of people use about 1800, anything above that is just stupid becuase there isn't actually any precision in higher dpi if anything I have noticed that most mice are jittery at the highest dpi step.

That being said I still like the wmo and its 400 dpi over some more mordern mice, right now I am using the zowie am at 450 dpi @500hz, I know that it tracks better at 2300 but I find 450 dpi more suited for some odd reason its just this feeling of 450 dpi feeling better in css, I guess it would have something to do with the source engine not liking higher dpi I suppose.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I just set my sensitivity to 1, switch through the CPI steps to find what feels good and then bump my sensitivity or yaw in which ever direction is needed.


This sounds like a good description for getting the most out of your mouse.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> You suggest we improve mouse accuracy by continually increasing stability at high speed in order to accommodate a 1,000cm/360 turning rate?
> 
> 
> 
> No. I meant: instead of decreasing sensitivity and increasing DPI (to maintain the same cm/360 distance), you should just decrease sensitivity alone. Of course this will change your cm/360 but it will help aiming accurately, especially if you are playing at 5 or 10 cm/360. This will not only set lower turning angle, so there will be more possible positions to aim, but also ensure that you can actually physically make use of it.
Click to expand...

I think some more explaining might help.
I'm used to aiming with just my wrist and fingers, almost no elbow movement, I don't grip the mouse, it sits there and gets nudged back and forth between my thumb and ring finger. After long gaming sessions it's not uncommon to see the mouse sitting at a 45 degree angle away from the monitor (angled toward my left hand), probably because fingers work better in a "pulling" motion. Needless to say, lifting the mouse is very disruptive to my play style.
It's also worth noting that for virtually my entire life I've used one of those crappy little desks with a roll out keyboard tray (or something of similar size). I only have about 17cm between my keyboard and the side of my desk, fill a good chunk of that space with hand and mouse and you don't have much room left for aiming.
Given that an 8,000 DPI mouse is good enough to pick up my absolute finest movements I have to agree that the only way to get more in game precision beyond that would be to increase the distance in my turning rate. I have experimented with a 10cm/360 turning rate and it's not entirely unusable, but just due to desk space at the moment it's pretty much impossible to go beyond that.


----------



## bst

I know a few players who have really good aim (and some pros that are amazing) that use around 10cm/360, so its fine really if thats what you're comfortable with. But you should try lower sensitivities at some point just to see if it suits you. Its not a good situation when your desk is limiting how you play


----------



## Finwens

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I know a few players who have really good aim (and some pros that are amazing) that use around 10cm/360, so its fine really if thats what you're comfortable with. But you should try lower sensitivities at some point just to see if it suits you. Its not a good situation when your desk is limiting how you play


That's awful. My desk is freaking small, and I keep hitting my keyboard with my mouse, it's so annoying and I end up losing a lot a kills on BF3. Play with 900dpi and 6/11.


----------



## Vikhr

tkl or keyboard on lap could help free up some mousing space if it concerns you.


----------



## Finwens

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vikhr*
> 
> tkl or keyboard on lap could help free up some mousing space if it concerns you.


It's actually a good idea the keyboard on the lap. I'll give it a try.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> I think some more explaining might help.
> I'm used to aiming with just my wrist and fingers, almost no elbow movement, I don't grip the mouse, it sits there and gets nudged back and forth between my thumb and ring finger. After long gaming sessions it's not uncommon to see the mouse sitting at a 45 degree angle away from the monitor (angled toward my left hand), probably because fingers work better in a "pulling" motion. Needless to say, lifting the mouse is very disruptive to my play style.
> It's also worth noting that for virtually my entire life I've used one of those crappy little desks with a roll out keyboard tray (or something of similar size). I only have about 17cm between my keyboard and the side of my desk, fill a good chunk of that space with hand and mouse and you don't have much room left for aiming.
> Given that an 8,000 DPI mouse is good enough to pick up my absolute finest movements I have to agree that the only way to get more in game precision beyond that would be to increase the distance in my turning rate. I have experimented with a 10cm/360 turning rate and it's not entirely unusable, but just due to desk space at the moment it's pretty much impossible to go beyond that.


Just to let you know: I used to game like that 6 years ago, before I started playing competitively and before I had any idea of what a good mouse is and how to improve my game etc.

I had a small keyboard tray, a little everglide quake mousepad and a Logitech Dual Optical (amazing 800 CPI at the time I bought it







)
Then TF2 came along, and with it my interest in playing matches, leagues, etc. I got involved in that and met adversaries that were so much better at aiming than I was, so much more consistent, it was terrible for me. I had always been quite good at FPs games, but those guys were amazing. One of the guys that amazed me most was fojji, a well known Quake player who played Scout for Kompaniet, a swedish team. I contacted him and asked for tips, and he actually answered me. One of the things he mentioned was his sens of 36cm/360° in TF2, which seemed impossible for me to play on, I was only used to moving my wrist. But I went ahead, changed my desk, bought a bigger mousemat (first was a Qpad UC XL) and lowered my sens more and more. After initial problems of getting used to the lower sens I quickly reached a point where I realised that my accuracy and consistency had already improved a lot, my muscle memory was getting better and better and I was able to land shots with skill that were mere luck before. But then I also had troubles with my mouse, my movement was getting to fast for it to track. Foolish as I was back then I just went for a big brand name with lots of CPI, in my case it was the Microsoft Habu. And boy, that mouse was terrible for me, mine had jitter like mad, aiming was impossible. That's when I started researching a bit about mice in general and stumbled upon the ESreality Mouse Score. My next mouse was the Deathadder, and that has worked for me until today. My sens today is even lower than what fojji had with around 60cm/360° and the only reason why I didn't go even lower is that I wouldn't be able to do quick 180s or rocketjumps anymore.

Long story short: I'd advise anybody to at least try to play with lower sens for a while. It helped me for sure.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Just to let you know: I used to game like that 6 years ago, before I started playing competitively and before I had any idea of what a good mouse is and how to improve my game etc.
> I had a small keyboard tray, a little everglide quake mousepad and a Logitech Dual Optical (amazing 800 CPI at the time I bought it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> Then TF2 came along, and with it my interest in playing matches, leagues, etc. I got involved in that and met adversaries that were so much better at aiming than I was, so much more consistent, it was terrible for me. I had always been quite good at FPs games, but those guys were amazing. One of the guys that amazed me most was fojji, a well known Quake player who played Scout for Kompaniet, a swedish team. I contacted him and asked for tips, and he actually answered me. One of the things he mentioned was his sens of 36cm/360° in TF2, which seemed impossible for me to play on, I was only used to moving my wrist. But I went ahead, changed my desk, bought a bigger mousemat (first was a Qpad UC XL) and lowered my sens more and more. After initial problems of getting used to the lower sens I quickly reached a point where I realised that my accuracy and consistency had already improved a lot, my muscle memory was getting better and better and I was able to land shots with skill that were mere luck before. But then I also had troubles with my mouse, my movement was getting to fast for it to track. Foolish as I was back then I just went for a big brand name with lots of CPI, in my case it was the Microsoft Habu. And boy, that mouse was terrible for me, mine had jitter like mad, aiming was impossible. That's when I started researching a bit about mice in general and stumbled upon the ESreality Mouse Score. My next mouse was the Deathadder, and that has worked for me until today. My sens today is even lower than what fojji had with around 60cm/360° and the only reason why I didn't go even lower is that I wouldn't be able to do quick 180s or rocketjumps anymore.
> Long story short: I'd advise anybody to at least try to play with lower sens for a while. It helped me for sure.


Hey, thanks for sharing your experience. I''m currently playing tier 4 on QL and that helps me understand why some people are much better than me, even when they have inferior mice. I have a SS 4HD mousepad, which doesn't allow that much of a low sens, but I will definitely try to lower it as much as possible and maybe buy a new mousepad.

Thank you.


----------



## Skpe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> Hey, thanks for sharing your experience. I''m currently playing tier 4 on QL and that helps me understand why some people are much better than me, even when they have inferior mice. I have a SS 4HD mousepad, which doesn't allow that much of a low sens, but I will definitely try to lower it as much as possible and maybe buy a new mousepad.
> Thank you.


Take this as anecdotal evidence, not a fact. I've played competitively for over 10 years and still do. Over the years I've learned to play with a wide range of sensitivities,10cm, 15cm, 20cm, 27cm, 35cm. 45cm with at least a year on each. Lower than 10 is a dangerous one, above 45 is also pretty extreme imo. But I didn't fully test those either. After playing a 'season' I typically would look to change my style a bit to keep things fresh, a challenge, to maintain a high level with a new style. The main thing I learned is that each has pros & cons, that there isn't a 'best' sensitivity, but there are times where the pros of a certain sens range will benefit you more for the role you play in a game. And sometimes it depends on how good your mechanics are in other certain areas. An example could be that while you may gain a certain degree of precision in hitting your rails in a narrow corridor, your movement could be slower meaning you have less angles to shoot anyway and lose precision because the shots you need to set up are now harder.
I think I probably played my worst when I used 35-45cm for a year because on one hand I might look so comfortable in my shots, if the game boiled down to who shoots who first, I'm going to be reacting slower every time. I'm a fast player, it wasn't the style for me. If perhaps you are a slower methodical player, by all means give it a shot.

tl;dr= unless you have an extreme sens like 2cm/360, I wouldn't suggest any one is better than the other unless you know exactly the style you want and will benefit you the most for the game you play. And even then, the goals you want out of the game might differ.


----------



## Deadeye

I personal just wander is it better with mouse fix or not, it's just sometimes it better but other times i prefer windows default and without "Enhance Pointer Precision" so cant make up my mind


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ILoveHighDPI*
> 
> I only have about 17cm between my keyboard and the side of my desk, fill a good chunk of that space with hand and mouse and you don't have much room left for aiming.


This is a good reason to have such high DPI settings. With 10 cm/360 you'll need to move your hand, so I can understand why you want to gain some precision without increasing turning distance.

Sensitivity and DPI settings depend on game. Quake is much faster and more dynamic than CS1.6, all weapons in CS are instant and headshots are often mortal. That's why I like lower sensitivity settings. I even played at 90 cm/360 but had to increase sensitivity eventually for the same reason - not enough place on my desk (I couldn't even turn 180 with one swipe).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> I can't see what the problem would be with using less than 1 (unless you are using a value so low and a CPI so high you run into floating point precision issues).


I agree, I haven't seen any evidence of different behavior when sensitivity is set below 1.0.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skpe*
> 
> Take this as anecdotal evidence, not a fact. I've played competitively for over 10 years and still do. Over the years I've learned to play with a wide range of sensitivities,10cm, 15cm, 20cm, 27cm, 35cm. 45cm with at least a year on each. Lower than 10 is a dangerous one, above 45 is also pretty extreme imo. But I didn't fully test those either. After playing a 'season' I typically would look to change my style a bit to keep things fresh, a challenge, to maintain a high level with a new style. The main thing I learned is that each has pros & cons, that there isn't a 'best' sensitivity, but there are times where the pros of a certain sens range will benefit you more for the role you play in a game. And sometimes it depends on how good your mechanics are in other certain areas. An example could be that while you may gain a certain degree of precision in hitting your rails in a narrow corridor, your movement could be slower meaning you have less angles to shoot anyway and lose precision because the shots you need to set up are now harder.
> I think I probably played my worst when I used 35-45cm for a year because on one hand I might look so comfortable in my shots, if the game boiled down to who shoots who first, I'm going to be reacting slower every time. I'm a fast player, it wasn't the style for me. If perhaps you are a slower methodical player, by all means give it a shot.
> tl;dr= unless you have an extreme sens like 2cm/360, I wouldn't suggest any one is better than the other unless you know exactly the style you want and will benefit you the most for the game you play. And even then, the goals you want out of the game might differ.


Well, I wasn't thinking about EXTREMELY low sensitivities. Right now I have it on around 28/360 and I don't really like it lower than that. But who knows, I might in the future... I just haven't tested thoroughly.


----------



## Skpe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> Well, I wasn't thinking about EXTREMELY low sensitivities. Right now I have it on around 28/360 and I don't really like it lower than that. But who knows, I might in the future... I just haven't tested thoroughly.


Now you said you play quake, a twitch fps game. And at 28cm/360, this is a pretty good all rounded sensitivity, you can use your arm to aim with shaft (more stable) & wrist for small adjustments on rail shots. Lowering this will change your game to be completely arm dependent. It won't make you 'better' but it will change your game style a little. People you perceive to be better than you with worse mice are probably just as likely to be using a faster sens, not a lower one than you are!


----------



## Skpe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> I agree, I haven't seen any evidence of different behavior when sensitivity is set below 1.0.










Good to know. I thought as much. I do wish the DPI calculators that tell you 'how much dpi is wasted' based on a simple formula to do with horizontal resolution which ignores aspect ratio, instead go for the best DPI your mouse has to offer and lower your sens below 1 without worry.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skpe*
> 
> Take this as anecdotal evidence, not a fact. I've played competitively for over 10 years and still do. Over the years I've learned to play with a wide range of sensitivities,10cm, 15cm, 20cm, 27cm, 35cm. 45cm with at least a year on each. Lower than 10 is a dangerous one, above 45 is also pretty extreme imo. But I didn't fully test those either. After playing a 'season' I typically would look to change my style a bit to keep things fresh, a challenge, to maintain a high level with a new style. The main thing I learned is that each has pros & cons, that there isn't a 'best' sensitivity, but there are times where the pros of a certain sens range will benefit you more for the role you play in a game. And sometimes it depends on how good your mechanics are in other certain areas. An example could be that while you may gain a certain degree of precision in hitting your rails in a narrow corridor, your movement could be slower meaning you have less angles to shoot anyway and lose precision because the shots you need to set up are now harder.
> I think I probably played my worst when I used 35-45cm for a year because on one hand I might look so comfortable in my shots, if the game boiled down to who shoots who first, I'm going to be reacting slower every time. I'm a fast player, it wasn't the style for me. If perhaps you are a slower methodical player, by all means give it a shot.
> tl;dr= unless you have an extreme sens like 2cm/360, I wouldn't suggest any one is better than the other unless you know exactly the style you want and will benefit you the most for the game you play. And even then, the goals you want out of the game might differ.


You are right about sens being too low for some games/playstyles. I was playing Scout mainly, which is pretty much aim only and a bit of movement. It was perfect for that. For Soldier a little higher sens was better, because of the flickshots with the rockets and for rocketjumps.

I still think most Quake pros I checked had pretty low sens though, but they used accel for faster movement.


----------



## popups

That is why I use two sensitivities. One that is slow so I don't overshoot on reaction (flick) shots and the other for clearing bomb sites which moves the cursor as fast as my hand moves on the mat.

Doing this has proven, for me, to be the best way to play games. One sensitivity for not overshooting your target on flick shots and one for 1 to 1 (so to speak) hand speed to cursor speed for rapid game play situations.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That is why I use two sensitivities. One that is slow so I don't overshoot on reaction (flick) shots and the other for clearing bomb sites which moves the cursor as fast as my hand moves on the mat.
> Doing this has proven, for me, to be the best way to play games. One sensitivity for not overshooting your target on flick shots and one for 1 to 1 (so to speak) hand speed to cursor speed for rapid game play situations.


This is something that didn't work for me. I tried to use different senses for Soldier and Scout as I played both in mixes, but the results were always lacking. All my gaming is pretty much based on muscle memory and different senses **** with that. I just learned to move my arm extremely fast for rocketjumps (which also helped me to get better at flickshots







)


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glymbol*
> 
> Well, in CS1.6 you can't go below sensitivity 1.0 and can't change m_pitch below 0.022 but there's a way to bypass this. There's a setting named default_fov, it's normally 90 but you are free to change it. Actually this fov setting in CS1.6 changes sensitivity. It works like this:
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 90     <= here most probably
> min angle = sensitivity * m_yaw (or m_pitch) * -----------    goes current fov
> default_fov
> 
> I think this was made to change sensitivity when zoomed so it would be scaled down to maintain precision.
> Setting different default_fov doesn't change your actual fov in game, so the only effect is sensitivity change.
> For example if you'd like to have sensitivity 0.75, use these settings:
> sensitivity 1.0
> default_fov 120 (because 90 / 120 = 0.75)
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 90
> min angle = 1.0 * 0.022 * ----- = 1.0 * 0.022 * 0.75 = 0.0165 degree angle
> 120
> 
> Two downsides to this method:
> a) real fov in game will be always 90 except when you die, the moments before you are taken to spectator mode fov will be messed,
> b) your max turning speed is still the same as with whatever is set in Windows so for 1800 CPI @ 6/11 and 800x600 @ 100 FPS it's laughable 0.56 m/s (this means default_fov can't be used to achieve insane precision in CS1.6 like ILoveHighDPI would like to, because you'll end with very low max speed).


So I tried that command in an alternative goldsrc game.

Sensitivity doesn't change when properly scaled to the correct FOV, though since 1.6 is "locked", the effects of sensitivity get translated regardless. (Even if the screen is still displaying 90).


----------



## Limniscate

I just thought I'd get this thread back on topic: BST, have the Aurora beta samples been sent out. I saw that you just got your sample and was wondering when to expect mini-reviews from the beta testers.


----------



## popups

Didn't he say that he got the development package mouse that the factory was using and not the actual production mice? So I think there is still some time before those are sent out to beta test. Then add 2 or 3 months for certification, production runs and shipping. In other words you are best to just go take a trip around the world as you would come back just in time for the release.


----------



## v4mp1

Great test results, thank you for the e-mail update.


----------



## Deadeye

This is for those who is not subscribed to the email:
Quote:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> As some of you may already know, I recently received the Development sample of the Aurora. Beta samples will be on their way to the testers soon, but in the mean time I thought I'd share some test results:
> 
> Please see the link below which shows the max tracking speeds of the different DPI levels:
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2363237/re-new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2363237
> 
> Here are some tracking quality and angle snapping test results at 500hz:
> http://ninox.org/images/Aurora_500hz_400dpi.png
> http://ninox.org/images/Aurora_500hz_800dpi.png
> http://ninox.org/images/Aurora_500hz_1600dpi.png
> http://ninox.org/images/Aurora_500hz_3200dpi.png
> http://ninox.org/images/Aurora_500hz_4000dpi.png
> 
> Accelleration tests in Quake Live passed, there is no in built acceleration or cursor delay/lag. It feels amazing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall I am very happy with the results! If you have any comments or questions, feel free to post on ESReality.com or Overclock.net:
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1240739/bsts-gaming-mouse
> 
> The beta testers are expected to get their samples in the beginning of Jan, for some independent testing with different kinds of gamer and hardware enthusiasts, on lots of different surfaces. I'll keep the newsletter updated with mini reviews and overall progress.
> 
> Thanks everyone, hope you all have a great Christmas and new year!
> 
> - bst


----------



## v4mp1

http://ninox.org/images/

security bst? xD


----------



## bst

Its intentional


----------



## Battou62

Can't wait to buy one of these


----------



## popups

Any of the beta testers have Hien or Shiden Kai mouse pads?


----------



## detto87

EX
CI
TED

Can't wait to order one of these beasts.

I said one? I mean 10.


----------



## WarningHPB

Looks like im going to be buying the mouse and a mouse mat!

Is there a chance of a combo pack which is slightly discounted?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WarningHPB*
> 
> Is there a chance of a combo pack which is slightly discounted?


There will be something like that


----------



## nlmiller0015

were are the pics for the mouse


----------



## bst

Theres a gallery here:
http://erasem.com/gallery/


----------



## GreenNeon

The Logitech G700 is like the creme brulee of wireless gaming mice. It's not cheap (At least to me it wasn't) but it's very comfortable and the macro/tools software is fancy, easy to navigate and offers a fool-proof interface. Has lots of nice settings too!
I have a G700 coupled with a med size Ozone mouse pad.

Edit: Okey... That is some pretty nifty looking kit. Aslong as it has blue lights, that's what counts


----------



## Manspider

Gief updates!


----------



## Battou62

Eagerly awaiting this mouse.


----------



## ich1ban

Wow, people are still so keen on this, it's been over 6 months since I checked this thread and people have still been waiting that long lol.


----------



## Limniscate

I caved when I saw the Roccat Savu for $33, but I'll still probably end up getting the Ninox as well.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ich1ban*
> 
> Wow, people are still so keen on this, it's been over 6 months since I checked this thread and people have still been waiting that long lol.


Sadly there is no other mouse out there ;/ So it is an annoying wait.

Im tired of buying semi decent mice though


----------



## NuFon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Sadly there is no other mouse out there ;/ So it is an annoying wait.
> 
> Im tired of buying semi decent mice though


The Razer Krait is a pretty solid mouse atm, but the Bst mouse will probably be better. A lot of little things that bother me about the Krait atm, but its the best alternative I have. (For now







)


----------



## resis

If Krait was Taipan sized with sidebuttons, I'd hold it in my hands now. Otherwise I see only Aurora on the horizon.


----------



## jr92

What's taking these guys so dam long


----------



## sofistdecaydead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jr92*
> 
> What's taking these guys so dam long


Patience. We shall all enjoy it one day.


----------



## Tazzzz

Want to preorder if available)


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NuFon*
> 
> The Razer Krait is a pretty solid mouse atm, but the Bst mouse will probably be better. A lot of little things that bother me about the Krait atm, but its the best alternative I have. (For now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


No sidebuttons, not an option at all.
Sadly.

Krait is to small for me ;/
And the weird bugg with the new sensor in krait,da is annoying.

Atm im using a Sensei inside a Xai shell, only one I can find ambidextrous with buttons thats ok ;/


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> No sidebuttons, not an option at all.
> Sadly.
> 
> Krait is to small for me ;/
> And the weird bugg with the new sensor in krait,da is annoying.
> 
> Atm im using a Sensei inside a Xai shell, only one I can find ambidextrous with buttons thats ok ;/


I'm afraid this isn't the mouse for you if you're using a sensei.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I'm afraid this isn't the mouse for you if you're using a sensei.


And why on earth would that be?
Just because I use a ****ty avago 9500 with acceleration? lols









I want a 3900,3500 that got a perfect fit.
And there is none except BST.

I tried almost every single mouse out there, I finally caved in and went with a ****ty avago9500 since it fit my hands better then all I tried.
There are mice for me without sidebuttons but thats a no go.

So yes BSTs mice are the best for me.


----------



## resis

Zowie's AM has a shape somewhat similar to the Sensei/Xai and the 3090 sensor. A good mouse, but expensive and extremely limited when it comes to options and settings. So I would still wait for BST's mice. I have the AM and am still waiting for Aurora.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Zowie's AM has a shape somewhat similar to the Sensei/Xai and the 3090 sensor. A good mouse, but expensive and extremely limited when it comes to options and settings. So I would still wait for BST's mice. I have the AM and am still waiting for Aurora.


I have the AM, bought it for 30$ here in sweden.
Useless mouse with those buttons for me, hard as ......

And prefer 800dpi, not zowies weird dpi settings.
Also its to narrow for my taste.

I tried every single mouse out there that could fit me ;>


----------



## jr92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I'm afraid this isn't the mouse for you if you're using a sensei.


Its a good shape unlike most mice, not everyone uses it for the quality of the sensor. The minor accel is barely even noticeable for a start. So if a mouse is made with a good shape and has a quality sensor then why wouldn't anyone with a sensei want to switch? I use a sensei and ill be switching to this mouse if it turns out to be good


----------



## mousefan

Man sorry, nothing against BST, but those Mice are announced for such a long time that it reminds me on the current CS Pro Mod Situation.
Means everything was hyped in the begining but almost nobody will care about it so soon it's out, cause it just needed to long and is to late.
Especially if you look at the great Options which already exist and even probably new great optical which will come out before the bst ones ever see daylight.


----------



## ginzi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mousefan*
> 
> Especially if you look at the great Options which already exist and even probably new great optical which will come out before the bst ones ever see daylight.


Already great existing options?
Regarding a simple, lightweight and ambidextroues shape

zowie am -> not everybody likes the huanos
sensei -> accel, not really lightweight
cm recon -> looks good, but never tried it
krait 2013 -> only available in china/ebay?
abyssus -> jitter
wmo -> 400dpi and low malfunction speed, okay its still one of the best, but some people want more than 400dpi








kana -> max. 800 dpi (which is enough), awful sidebuttons, really cheap workmanship, bad feet...

Maybe i forgot some







. But there is no Logitech Pilot/Mx300/G1/G3 shaped mouse with a good sensor.

Dunno about future mice, but i don't know about any upcoming mice with the specs of bst's mice


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> No sidebuttons, not an option at all.
> Sadly.
> 
> Krait is to small for me ;/
> And the weird bugg with the new sensor in krait,da is annoying.


The krait bug is a myth as far as i'm concerned. I was one of the very first to get the mouse and I have never noticed it. I've used the mouse extensively on a QCK, goliathus and a SS SX alu-pad. No problems on any surface for tons of hours of gaming RTS and FPS. The mouse is everything I wanted.


----------



## NuFon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> The krait bug is a myth as far as i'm concerned. I was one of the very first to get the mouse and I have never noticed it. I've used the mouse extensively on a QCK, goliathus and a SS SX alu-pad. No problems on any surface for tons of hours of gaming RTS and FPS. The mouse is everything I wanted.


I can guarantee you that the bug is no myth, atleast not with mine. First it started out maybe freaking out maybe one time a day, now its like five times a day. Dont know if I got a bad sample.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NuFon*
> 
> I can guarantee you that the bug is no myth, atleast not with mine. First it started out maybe freaking out maybe one time a day, now its like five times a day. Dont know if I got a bad sample.


I said as far as I'm concerned, meaning that in my experience it hasn't happened at all.

I don't think that people are lying about it, but i can't attest to it's existence. The mouse has been "all that" for me so far.


----------



## ich1ban

Mine has done it a few times unfortunately - hope it doesn't get any worse.

You can't really view it as a myth even if it hasn't happened to you, that's like saying an engine failure in a car is a myth just because it's never happened to you lol.


----------



## eosgreen

my mouse killed my parents...


----------



## Battou62

Bamp, we are getting impatient BST


----------



## Ukkooh

I guess there simply are no updates right now. I hope bst hasn't died in a car accident or something because I was going to buy this as a bday gift to myself.


----------



## aikYu

He made a email list and he doesn't say a word









I don't know how busy he is to write 5 lines but I think this is making a lot of people jumping to other brands.


----------



## bst

I'm still alive







There were some things I wanted done before the beta test mice were sent out, its just taken longer than expected. Hopefully before the end of this week I should have some updates.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I'm still alive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were some things I wanted done before the beta test mice were sent out, its just taken longer than expected. Hopefully before the end of this week I should have some updates.


Thanks for replying bst, now you made me curious about the updates


----------



## viowastaken

BST:

Do any other mice's skatez fit the Aurora? Or will you sell replacement skatez for it your self

Thanks, good luck with the launch.


----------



## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aikYu*
> 
> He made a email list and he doesn't say a word
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how busy he is to write 5 lines but I think this is making a lot of people jumping to other brands.


I caved and bought the Savu for $33 but will probably still end up trying out the Aurora by buying it as a gift for my cousin's son.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> BST:
> 
> Do any other mice's skatez fit the Aurora? Or will you sell replacement skatez for it your self
> 
> Thanks, good luck with the launch.


IIRC he's duplicated the IME feet or the like.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> BST:
> 
> Do any other mice's skatez fit the Aurora? Or will you sell replacement skatez for it your self
> 
> Thanks, good luck with the launch.


There will be stock of replacement skates.


----------



## cprossu

I'm sure you get this a lot BST, and I am also sure there's a rather large line of people ahead of me, but I'd like to pre-order or beta test one of your mice. I keep killing G400's (due to shorted/open cords), and am more than disappointed with Logitech's fear of actually fixing defects or listening to their customers. Tell me where, when, and how much and I'll do what I can to find any flaws with your product.


----------



## sofistdecaydead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dev1lman*
> 
> Logitech is getting to old when there are way better mice out there for less. I came across this site http://noobsgaming.com and found a good mouse from a company called Perixx out of Germany. The mouse I purchased was the MX-2000. This mouse has Omron Micro Switches. A must when it comes to FPS gaming. I replaced my G9X with this mouse and this has been over 6 months ago and I haven't went back to the G9X as of today. I play a lot of BF3 so a good mouse is really important to me so yea I think it is a good find and well worth the money. Just check out my stats and you can see how good this mouse really is.... http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/soldier/Dev1lman38/stats/389479823/ Hope this helps.


I wouldn't say that the mouse really gave you those stats, but your actual skills.
I am quite certain one could achieve similar success in BF3 with a throw away Dell Mouse. It all depends on how reliable the hardware is, and it is easier to rely on a mouse where you understand its production concepts, which is what BST is offering us.


----------



## RegalX

Like Sofi said good hardware only makes thing easier but it mostly depends on your skill


----------



## Dev1lman

Of course skill is a given but having a good mouse with little bloat ware to get confused over is a must for me. People don't need all the bloatware that comes with most mice and the MX-2000 is a Bloatware free mouse... Don't hurt the wallet and easy to install without a bunch of firmware crap. If you try it you will see.


----------



## cprossu

Quote:


> Just check out my stats and you can see how good this mouse really is.... http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/soldier/Dev1lman38/stats/389479823/ Hope this helps.


Thanks for trying but stats really do not show me what I need to know.

Old or not, and always commanding a premium price (Which I've happily paid again and again) Logitech has made really nice mice for many years, heck I still have my original Logitech Mouseman bus somewhere, and I am sure it still works fine. Only reason I stopped using it was motherboards stopped having ISA slots. Honestly all it would take to make me a happy camper is a G400 mouse with either an improved cord, or the cord they used on the original optical wheel mouse.

This being said, what I honestly "want" is a mouse made by someone who was frustrated by the mice out there who was trying his hardest to make one with as few defects or annoyances as possible. A lot of people would pay tremendous amounts of money for a good optical mouse that doesn't lose it's tracking, is good at low res, and is built with a good enough quality they never have to use their warranties. It shouldn't be rocket science!


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dev1lman*
> 
> Logitech is getting to old when there are way better mice out there for less. I came across this site http://noobsgaming.com and found a good mouse from a company called Perixx out of Germany. The mouse I purchased was the MX-2000. This mouse has Omron Micro Switches. A must when it comes to FPS gaming. I replaced my G9X with this mouse and this has been over 6 months ago and I haven't went back to the G9X as of today. I play a lot of BF3 so a good mouse is really important to me so yea I think it is a good find and well worth the money. Just check out my stats and you can see how good this mouse really is.... http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/soldier/Dev1lman38/stats/389479823/ Hope this helps.


You know, I play BF3 as well and that game is not that demanding when it comes to mouse performance because let's face it, hectic 1on1 shootouts don't happen there, you acquire the target and then it's micro adjustment. I even did well back in BC2 with a laser mouse that was complete garbage for every heavy aim demanding FPS (i.e. Quake, TF2).

I'm not saying that your mouse there is bad or anything, it's just that stats in BF3 are irrelevant to mouse performance


----------



## Nilizum

How come he doesn't really have a website for his Ninox brand?


----------



## popups

He does and he doesn't. It isn't done but he does have a domain. The mouse is no where near release. So it doesn't matter. It looks like it would be closer to 2014 when it is released.


----------



## Battou62

Wat? You better be joking?


----------



## Ihateallmice

Hopefully it will be useless by then.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> He does and he doesn't. It isn't done but he does have a domain. The mouse is no where near release. So it doesn't matter. It looks like it would be closer to 2014 when it is released.


I bet it is going to take only 2 or 3 months before release. And AFAIK the mouse is almost ready as bst already sent some out for beta testing.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I bet it is going to take only 2 or 3 months before release. And AFAIK the mouse is almost ready as bst already sent some out for beta testing.


Are you talking about the 3090 or 3050? Because I haven't heard about the 3090 being sent to beta testers and the 3050 is said to come after that. So... if you know how long production and shipping from China takes, it will be a while.


----------



## resis

According to BST, the 3050 was tested in the Aurora shell last year and the 3090 is being tested about now. So if testing goes well it must be a matter of few months from now to have a possible release of the Aurora (with 3090). I'd say closer to June.
Velocity (3050 with it's own shell) will come some time after that.


----------



## glockateer

The aurora test mice haven't gone out yet but he is doing tons of small tweaks and improvements based off of feedback. It'll practically be a finished product by the time those go out.


----------



## noobdown

http://www.dvhardware.net/article57339.html


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *noobdown*
> 
> http://www.dvhardware.net/article57339.html


How is this related to bst's mouse in any way?


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *noobdown*
> 
> http://www.dvhardware.net/article57339.html












Oh well, the 200dpi at least sounds good.


----------



## cprossu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *noobdown*
> 
> http://www.dvhardware.net/article57339.html


I wonder if the company making it is in any relation to an old serial mouse I remember buying ages ago?


I really liked that mouse too


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *glockateer*
> 
> The aurora test mice haven't gone out yet but he is doing tons of small tweaks and improvements based off of feedback. It'll practically be a finished product by the time those go out.


Unlike other mice that are released? You know, the ones that need firmware updates on release or require RMA 2-3 times before you get one from a batch that wasn't horrible.


----------



## Battou62

BST
PLEASE
GIEF
PLEASE....


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *noobdown*
> 
> http://www.dvhardware.net/article57339.html


That mouse does not look very good at all.


----------



## resis

BST
STOP
TEASING


----------



## v4mp1

dafuq is going on?


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> dafuq is going on?


not much just chilling its sunday


----------



## Yahar

Any updates? I really need a new mouse. is the aurora being beta tested already?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Any updates? I really need a new mouse. is the aurora being beta tested already?


Yes it is. You could subscribe here for updates: https://tinyletter.com/ninox


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yes it is. You could subscribe here for updates: https://tinyletter.com/ninox


I did not hear of the Aurora being tested by anyone other than BST. The Aurora shell and Velocity hardware have been tested.

Far as I am aware -- there has been a huge delay. It is no surprise considering the developers have not used the 3090 before. There is a lot of programming for them to experiment with and test. It's better that they do that than rush a release.


----------



## bst

I'm sorry, I've been so busy lately.

99% of the development is done really, its the software holding things up. I mean if all you want is a mouse which has decent tracking and LOD with the 3090 sensor, at native DPI steps, its done. Also, the beta test is now more like a final test now, or preview. I've been working on things one at a time, so there hasn't been a version which is really ready for a group of people to test. I mean everyone tested the shell already, and thats the main point of an early test. I'd really like it to be as close to final as possible before sending them out, so everyone gets a good idea of what to expect, which hopefully is going to be in the next updated version I get (the last version was almost there, they sent it to me simply because the new year was coming). I hope to get that fairly soon, but the Chinese new year didn't help to speed things up







(its possible it would have been done by now).

I have an update to make but its a lot of things at once, it takes a bit of time just to write it out, but I like to make sure what I say in the newsletters is big enough to be something worth reading. If its quiet, all it means is that things are taking longer, it wouldn't ever mean I'd given up







But over the next couple of weeks there should be some interesting news.


----------



## Ukkooh

Just take your time to finish it. Nobody needs another rushed mouse on the market. Btw have you been able to confirm how much is it (aurora) going to cost for us?


----------



## ezisatnaF

Seems like it's almost here!! Tbh, I'd buy it even without driver software. I'm assuming it will be available the same time in Canada as the US.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ezisatnaF*
> 
> Seems like it's almost here!! Tbh, I'd buy it even without driver software. I'm assuming it will be available the same time in Canada as the US.


The main places pre-orders will be available from are US and Europe, stores in Canada might be stocking it after release but I don't have any yet. Let me know if you have a favourite and I'll ask them if they want to stock it


----------



## SyahmiX

yo bst. please make the aurora track much better than savu on clothpad.


----------



## popups

I want to know if he is still intent on using 1.2mm thick feet? I suggest a lens to surface height (with no feet) of 2.25mm and 0.2mm feet -- giving you the ability to use 0.6mm feet and still retain good tracking.

I don't know if he has the option though considering the OEM mold...

I hope the scroll wheel isn't as far back as it looks to be.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> The price is amazingly low considering there isn't a big company behind your mice. If I understood correctly I have to order the mouse from UK or have you made any deals with finnish importers/stores? I'd hate to pay the postage from UK but I will if I must.


That's because he isn't trying to make big profit. He could up the price. Don't be surprised if he does.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I want to know if he is still intent on using 1.2mm thick feet? I suggest a lens to surface height (with no feet) of 2.25mm and 0.2mm feet -- giving you the ability to use 0.6mm feet and still retain good tracking.
> 
> I don't know if he has the option though considering the OEM mold...


The feet will be 1mm, the tracking is fine, I've tried it with different thickness feet and there isn't any noticeable difference. I can't remember what the lens to surface height is, but iirc the current setup is just outside the upper range in the Avago spec sheet. So as you work your way through the feet, you'll get closer to the to the recommended range. But like I said, it seems fine to me sitting just outside it.


----------



## resis

Bst, can you tell us again how the cord is? Is it very flexible (like Zowie mice)? Or is it the usual crappy stuff?


----------



## cprossu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 99% of the development is done really, its the software holding things up. I mean if all you want is a mouse which has decent tracking and LOD with the 3090 sensor, at native DPI steps, its done.


Sounds like a winner to me! Honestly I usually don't even run drivers/mouse software if I can avoid it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> Bst, can you tell us again how the cord is? Is it very flexible (like Zowie mice)? Or is it the usual crappy stuff?


Just as long as the cable better than the cord they used on the Logitech G400 or G9x and as good as a old school Logitech wheel optical mouse or a MS WMO, I'll be a happy camper.


----------



## nonamed

Can't wait... Hope shipping to Europe - Poland will be available.

Regards.


----------



## end0rphine

How much do you think certification will delay the mouse? Just trying to figure some sorta release date.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Is there new info about the Aurora/multi-coloured surface compatibility?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thunderbringer*
> 
> Is there new info about the Aurora/multi-coloured surface compatibility?


Don't think so -- considering the situation.

If the mouse has a 2mm LOD with the Avago lens, what would that do to its surface compatibility? Physically, when using the standard lens and a good LED, it should be fine. Compatibility would be predicated by firmware.

Also BST says he will use 1.2mm mouse feet. So if the LOD is 2mm with 1.2mm mouse feet, that means the LOD is actually around 3mm with 0.18mm mouse feet.


----------



## jr92

Please allow shipping to Australia bst!


----------



## cprossu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> its not rigid enough to hold its own weight up very well. I have used more flexible cords, but they felt quite weak, so this is intended as a cross between flexibility and durability.


Any way you could offer a version with the most durable cord you have access to?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cprossu*
> 
> Any way you could offer a version with the most durable cord you have access to?


The most durable cord would be thick, sleeved/braided and stiff.

You have to compromise somewhere.


----------



## cprossu

Quote:


> The most durable cord would be thick, sleeved/braided and stiff.
> 
> You have to compromise somewhere.


Heck at this point I don't think I'd even mind dealing with a steel braided strain relief.


----------



## glockateer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> 99% of the development is done really, its the software holding things up. I mean if all you want is a mouse which has decent tracking and LOD with the 3090 sensor, at native DPI steps, its done. Also, the beta test is now more like a final test now, or preview.


To be fair, that and the shape/weight/components fill the majority of the informed market you were aiming for. Obviously some people will use drivers but picky users like the purity. : P

On a side note, I can't use any other shell than this ninox aurora one anymore. I'm overly excited to use the stronger sensor with 400/800 native steps instead of 500. I'm glad you've been working the "it'll be released when it's ready" approach even if it kills me.


----------



## popups

I actually like 500 over 400...


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

I am just curious if the mouse will have a stable hertz rate. have you got some test result?

and saw this picture,

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6949/p1230165m.jpg

of the bottom of the mouse are you really using blue or purple as youre led colour?
Why not red, red is superior right tracking wise.


----------



## FoxWolf1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> I am just curious if the mouse will have a stable hertz rate. have you got some test result?
> 
> and saw this picture,
> 
> http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6949/p1230165m.jpg
> 
> of the bottom of the mouse are you really using blue or purple as youre led colour?
> Why not red, red is superior right tracking wise.


Didn't he say somewhere that it's using infrared? The color seen there is probably from the decorative LED within the mouse, rather than the one used for sensor illumination,


----------



## Ukkooh

Atleast it says infrared on the Velocity's box.


----------



## glockateer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> I am just curious if the mouse will have a stable hertz rate. have you got some test result?
> 
> and saw this picture,
> 
> http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6949/p1230165m.jpg
> 
> of the bottom of the mouse are you really using blue or purple as youre led colour?
> Why not red, red is superior right tracking wise.



This is with my beta aurora/velocity hybrid.

Also, he is using avago speced infrared for tracking. The bleeding light comes from the customizable lights on the front end.


----------



## blackmesatech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *glockateer*
> 
> 
> This is with my beta aurora/velocity hybrid.
> 
> Also, he is using avago speced infrared for tracking. The bleeding light comes from the customizable lights on the front end.


I'm still insanely jealous of all those that have the beta shell samples. It's great to hear you're using it.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

hey thanks for the screenshots, can you test it aswell for me on 1000 hertz.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> hey thanks for the screenshots, can you test it aswell for me on 1000 hertz.


I think there is no point in that because the mobo affects it also.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blackmesatech*
> 
> I'm still insanely jealous of all those that have the beta shell samples.


Yeah, me too


----------



## vss vintorez

guys this mouse can't be better than da2013, the adns 3090 has hardware limitations, the one used on da2013 has much more potential (surely razer paid to have it exclussively for them).


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> guys this mouse can't be better than da2013, the adns 3090 has hardware limitations, the one used on da2013 has much more potential (surely razer paid to have it exclussively for them).


It still could be up par with the razer deathadder, and have onboard memory, ow sorry I must say it different dont have "razer synapse"
And the shape could be better for some people then the deathadder.
The price would be also much lower.

Its just the mouse should have come out earlier now there are already alternatives like,

Razer Deathadder,
CM Storm Recon,
Roccat Savu,

They all have decent malfunction speeds at higher dpi, its just what shape you prefer, only thing I am waiting for is a wider mouse using the avago 3090 with decent m/s at higher dpi's I would love to see a mionix aurora or a steelserie ikari shape with it.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> guys this mouse can't be better than da2013, the adns 3090 has hardware limitations, the one used on da2013 has much more potential (surely razer paid to have it exclussively for them).


There is a point where it's enough, as long as the A3090 in bst's mouse offers that it's fine. Seeing how well my Savu performs this might very well be the case. Also the talk about smoothing in the new DA/Krait got me worried.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> There is a point where it's enough, as long as the A3090 in bst's mouse offers that it's fine. Seeing how well my Savu performs this might very well be the case. Also the talk about smoothing in the new DA/Krait got me worried.


It's not smoothing. It's the way they discard some CPI in order to get your desired one. Just set it to 6400dpi and set sensitivity ingame.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> It still could be up par with the razer deathadder, and have onboard memory, ow sorry I must say it different dont have "razer synapse"
> And the shape could be better for some people then the deathadder.
> The price would be also much lower.
> 
> Its just the mouse should have come out earlier now there are already alternatives like,
> 
> Razer Deathadder,
> CM Storm Recon,
> Roccat Savu,
> 
> They all have decent malfunction speeds at higher dpi, its just what shape you prefer, only thing I am waiting for is a wider mouse using the avago 3090 with decent m/s at higher dpi's I would love to see a mionix aurora or a steelserie ikari shape with it.


Deathadder 2013 has memory.
Cm storm recon is trash.

Roccat savu is the only mouse that can handle deathadder 2013 and just for its cursor quality and obviously the previous deathadder.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> It's not smoothing. It's the way they discard some CPI in order to get your desired one. Just set it to 6400dpi and set sensitivity ingame.


That would be terrible for me as 6400 CPI is impossible for desktop use. Also many games don't allow extremely low values. Valve games would work, maybe DICE too, but most of the console ports you get to play these days don't allow for low sens. I remember Bioshock where I was forced to set my mouse to 400 CPI and windows to 4/11 to be able to play it comfortably...

And as I said, the Savu performance it brilliant, why should the Aurora be any different?


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> That would be terrible for me as 6400 CPI is impossible for desktop use. Also many games don't allow extremely low values. Valve games would work, maybe DICE too, but most of the console ports you get to play these days don't allow for low sens. I remember Bioshock where I was forced to set my mouse to 400 CPI and windows to 4/11 to be able to play it comfortably...
> 
> And as I said, the Savu performance it brilliant, why should the Aurora be any different?


Because, roccat is founded by millionare kids that can pay some good engineers to make it good. You can use it at desktop, just modify your registry.
Set sentivity to 0,0625.

0,0625*6400=400dpi.


----------



## nlmiller0015

I would use the DA 2013 but I need to custimize my mouse buttons and I dont like using synapase so ill just keep my 3.5. And for some reason the da 2013 right click is way easier to press than my black edition another reason im not using it right now


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nlmiller0015*
> 
> I would use the DA 2013 but I need to custimize my mouse buttons and I dont like using synapase so ill just keep my 3.5. And for some reason the da 2013 right click is way easier to press than my black edition another reason im not using it right now


the 3.5 is better than 2013 anyways. More responsive. They seem to have added some bizarre smoothing feature which really sucks.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> guys this mouse can't be better than da2013, the adns 3090 has hardware limitations, the one used on da2013 has much more potential (surely razer paid to have it exclussively for them).


DA is a terrible shape for anyone who's hand isn't the perfect size for it. The way the right front side of the mouse points/angles outward is ******* ******ed. Anyone who's fingers are long enough to extend to that point or beyond get a nasty jab to their ring finger the entire time.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> the 3.5 is better than 2013 anyways. More responsive. They seem to have added some bizarre smoothing feature which really sucks.


Did you experience that with the Krait 2013 too?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> DA is a terrible shape for anyone who's hand isn't the perfect size for it. The way the right front side of the mouse points/angles outward is ******* ******ed. Anyone who's fingers are long enough to extend to that point or beyond get a nasty jab to their ring finger the entire time.


I really liked that shape, even though my fingers reach past that point. But that was the good thing, because it allowed me to put pressure on the mouse by arching the fingers instead of to having to put pressure to the side. Kind of hard to explain, but that's how I feel it.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> the 3.5 is better than 2013 anyways. More responsive. They seem to have added some bizarre smoothing feature which really sucks.


It doesn't have smoothing for your movement. It's just a way of "retro-interpolation". They may fix that or change it in future firmwares, if you don't like that just stick to 6400dpi and manage windows/game sensitivity.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> DA is a terrible shape for anyone who's hand isn't the perfect size for it. The way the right front side of the mouse points/angles outward is ******* ******ed. Anyone who's fingers are long enough to extend to that point or beyond get a nasty jab to their ring finger the entire time.


If your fingers are long enough to get over the edge of deathadder's mouse clicks, there's not perfect shape for you xD.


----------



## detto87

My fingers are not long enough to get over the edge of deathadder's mouse clicks, but I still hate the shape.

I was really looking forward to it especially because of the sensor performance and leaning again more towards palming (or at least I thought so).
When the DA2013 arrived and I tested it, I immediately filled out the return form at amazon to send it back, because I cant lift that thing properly.
The "grippy" sides aren't that grippy. And because of the shape and (I guess) height it's even more troublesome for me to lift it than the Zowie AM.

So yeah, bst's mouse WILL be the better mouse than the DA2013 for me.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> My fingers are not long enough to get over the edge of deathadder's mouse clicks, but I still hate the shape.
> 
> I was really looking forward to it especially because of the sensor performance and leaning again more towards palming (or at least I thought so).
> When the DA2013 arrived and I tested it, I immediately filled out the return form at amazon to send it back, because I cant lift that thing properly.
> The "grippy" sides aren't that grippy. And because of the shape and (I guess) height it's even more troublesome for me to lift it than the Zowie AM.
> 
> So yeah, bst's mouse WILL be the better mouse than the DA2013 for me.


Try the savu or g400. Those may fit you.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> guys this mouse can't be better than da2013, the adns 3090 has hardware limitations, the one used on da2013 has much more potential (surely razer paid to have it exclussively for them).


The new Death Adder has the spin bug and bloatware drivers.


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> It doesn't have smoothing for your movement. It's just a way of "retro-interpolation". They may fix that or change it in future firmwares, if you don't like that just stick to 6400dpi and manage windows/game sensitivity.


I was not aware of this, thank you!
Are the steps such as 400, 800, 1600, and 3200 interpolated too?


----------



## popups

Why do you guys want more than 1,000 CPI? I am completely fine with 500 and would use 1,000 with certain games. In CS I use 600 "CPI".

The problem these days are people wanting much more CPI than they need. The result from that is interpolation on mice. Which then brings in the whining that mice feel floaty. If you don't want a mouse to feel sluggish or floaty, you have to get accustom to using a mouse with native 400-800 CPI, with no option for higher CPI. Just like everyone who uses an Intellimouse. Unless a sensor has native steps.


----------



## trhead

Its just personal preference. I use 900dpi and sometimes 450 on the Sensei Raw. My monitor is only 1920x1080 so those dpi settings are high enough.


----------



## popups

That is why games have sensitivity values. Desktop resolution in irrelevant. If you want faster cursor speed then change your in game sensitivity. So what if you start moving further away from 1. There isn't much benefit trying to use a mouse (interpolation) to get your cursor speed to where you want in game. Same goes for quick switching CPI buttons.

I rather have an accurate, responsive mouse, without interpolation and a higher in game sensitivity. Over a mouse that is the antithesis of that just for a lower in game sensitivity.

A lot more people would be using the Intellimice if it could do at least 3m/s.


----------



## resis

The odd problem I am still battling with in many games is that I often need to put the in-game mouse sense to the most minimum to have it the way it needs to be, in some games it is till too fast. If I'd max out the in-game sense, I'd probably spin around the globe and the moon at least once when sneezing unintentionally. This is just ridiculous. That, or I am mad.

My current 450dpi (- 500dpi) are perfect for Windows (6/11, 1440p), but in some games I'd still need to go slightly lower, but mostly it's okay.

In short, high CPI are a mystery for me. I wonder what people do with it. Aim for atoms?


----------



## nsKb

Razer and Roccat don't have engineers they have marketoids. I seriously doubt Razer had anything developed exclusively for them. The deathadder is also a very heavy mouse, which I and many others don't like.


----------



## Skylit

not really ^

Couple of the few with solid R&D actually.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> The problem these days are people wanting much more CPI than they need. The result from that is interpolation on mice. .


What?... Interpolation scaled from a larger value is the result of an older design with limited option, though this has changed with later 3090 revisions.

9500 and 9800 as well as Philips twin eye are plentiful in terms of native scaling.


----------



## Ukkooh

Too bad they only their mouse departments are actually decent.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> What?... Interpolation scaled from a larger value is the result of an older design with limited option, though this has changed with later 3090 revisions.
> 
> 9500 and 9800 as well as Philips twin eye are plentiful in terms of native scaling.


What is native on the current 3090? The code says 1800 or 3500. There is no 450 or 900 -- is there? It's true there could be, but does Avago offer that? Are the CPI steps on BST's mouse all native to the sensor or just scaled/interpolated?

If I can have every step on a 3090 native, why the hell does Zowie choose the ones they do?

By the way, I use the word "interpolate" to refer to taking data from a higher native step for others (scaling). Doesn't scaling take enough time to do to change the feel of the sensor?


----------



## FoxWolf1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What is native on the current 3090? The code says 1800 or 3500. There is no 450 or 900 -- is there? It's true there could be, but does Avago offer that? Are the CPI steps on BST's mouse all native to the sensor or just scaled/interpolated?
> 
> If I can have every step on a 3090 native, why the hell does Zowie choose the ones they do?
> 
> By the way, I use the word "interpolate" to refer to taking data from a higher native step for others (scaling). Doesn't scaling take enough time to do to change the feel of the sensor?


800, 1600, 3200, and 4000 for the 3090 with upgraded firmware...at least if I'm correctly reading the note from Avago about the update.


----------



## popups

Says the default would be 400 CPI. So I assume you can use all of those native steps. As BST is doing.

To bad it isn't 450 > 900 > 1800, because once you use taller mouse feet it will go down roughly (a guess) 25-50 CPI. So I would be stuck using thin feet and a light color mouse pad (depending on LOD) with 400 CPI on certain games. With other games I could use taller feet and a black pad with 800 CPI.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What is native on the current 3090? The code says 1800 or 3500. There is no 450 or 900 -- is there? It's true there could be, but does Avago offer that? Are the CPI steps on BST's mouse all native to the sensor or just scaled/interpolated?
> 
> If I can have every step on a 3090 native, why the hell does Zowie choose the ones they do?
> 
> By the way, I use the word "interpolate" to refer to taking data from a higher native step for others (scaling). Doesn't scaling take enough time to do to change the feel of the sensor?


The original 3090 SROM looks to be a blatant copy and paste of Razers 3888 SKU, albeit tweaked/modified to some extent. No 450 or 900 as those steps are halved and quartered from the larger 1800 registry.

BST is using the 2nd release. (800/1600/3200/4000)~ Though I'm not sure how his factory went about 400 DPI (which is technically possible as a native registry).

The steps are limited to whats provided by sensor manufacture. Zowie is using 3rd party hardware not supported by Avago and or future affiliates.

FW development takes time and cost money? Not viewed as a worthy investment? (Well I wouldn't blame them at this point







)

Mhmm. Well like monitor scaling, there's slight minimal recalculation delay. Overall effect will depend on implementation, controller itself. etc..


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Says the default would be 400 CPI. So I assume you can use all of those native steps. As BST is doing.
> 
> To bad it isn't 450 > 900 > 1800, because once you use taller mouse feet it will go down roughly (a guess) 25-50 CPI. So I would be stuck using thin feet and a light color mouse pad (depending on LOD) with 400 CPI on certain games. With other games I could use taller feet and a black pad with 800 CPI.


The surface itself will increase/decrease DPI passed estimated range. There are way too many variables outside mere "mouse feet" and specified height lol


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> The surface itself will increase/decrease DPI passed estimated range. There are way too many variables outside mere "mouse feet" and specified height lol


Regardless. If I use taller feet I will lose CPI no matter the actual value the mouse produces. I can perceive the change in CPI with different mouse feet (surface height) more than I can with surface. At least with the pads I tried.

The point is I want to use something close to 500 (prefer 600) and 450 is the closest to that. If I get below 400 with a certain sensor height and surface, it would suck. Keep in mind that BST has stated he will use 1.2mm mouse feet. That has a major impact on the values out of the box, amongst other things.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> I was not aware of this, thank you!
> Are the steps such as 400, 800, 1600, and 3200 interpolated too?


Mo they aren't, they are not interpolated, interpolation is when you make higher dpi from lower one. This mouse is counting 6400 dots in 1 inch and somehow (I think deleting) with some kind of criteria tons of the written dots. That's how they may calculate the lower ones. And the way they're doing this is ruinning the feeling of the cursor.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> The new Death Adder has the spin bug and bloatware drivers.


The sping bug was fixed. And the drivers... why do you need them ? Just set everything as you want and them uninstall.


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> Mo they aren't, they are not interpolated, interpolation is when you make higher dpi from lower one. This mouse is counting 6400 dots in 1 inch and somehow (I think deleting) with some kind of criteria tons of the written dots. That's how they may calculate the lower ones. And the way they're doing this is ruinning the feeling of the cursor.


I see what you mean. This is so disappointing! I was wanting one . . .


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> Mo they aren't, they are not interpolated, interpolation is when you make higher dpi from lower one.


Uhm, that would be extrapolation, interpolation is calculating a point between 2 known points.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Uhm, that would be extrapolation, interpolation is calculating a point between 2 known points.


I was referring to the technique used, when you make higher dpi from a lower native one you use interpolation. When you want to decrease dpi from a higher REAL one you use what I called "retro-interpolation".


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> If your fingers are long enough to get over the edge of deathadder's mouse clicks, there's not perfect shape for you xD.


Sure there are.

For palm grip there's the 518(inaccurate sensor), IE 1.1(coating gives no grip), razer copperhead(finicky sensor), & some a4tech mice(bad sensors) and various other non gaming mice. All of these shapes were fine for FPS/palm grip.

For claw/finger grip almost any small mouse will do.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Why do you guys want more than 1,000 CPI? I am completely fine with 500 and would use 1,000 with certain games. In CS I use 600 "CPI".
> 
> The problem these days are people wanting much more CPI than they need. The result from that is interpolation on mice. Which then brings in the whining that mice feel floaty. If you don't want a mouse to feel sluggish or floaty, you have to get accustom to using a mouse with native 400-800 CPI, with no option for higher CPI. Just like everyone who uses an Intellimouse. Unless a sensor has native steps.


Exactly. If you're "needing" anything above 800dpi you either don't know how to setup your mouse settings(EPP off, 6/11, use ingame sensitivity cvar) or you're on a massive(~32"+?) or multiple monitors.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Sure there are.
> 
> For palm grip there's the 518(inaccurate sensor), IE 1.1(coating gives no grip), razer copperhead(finicky sensor), & some a4tech mice(bad sensors) and various other non gaming mice. All of these shapes were fine for FPS/palm grip.
> 
> For claw/finger grip almost any small mouse will do.
> Exactly. If you're "needing" anything above 800dpi you either don't know how to setup your mouse settings(EPP off, 6/11, use ingame sensitivity cvar) or you're on a massive(~32"+?) or multiple monitors.


So you expect every single gamer playing a fps?
What about games like moba, RTS where most people use higher DPI.
So yes a TON of gamers need more then 800 dpi, and that include progamers.

Yes you can increase mouse sensitivity in most games that dont have a console but a sens slider and get problems, but thats not really to smart.

And why mention MX518 when you can mention G400 without prediction.


----------



## Degree

^ As an avid gamer that is used to high DPI, I can't stand using such slow DPI speeds like 800
Speed is crucial for me in many games, you just have to get used it.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Sure there are.
> 
> For palm grip there's the 518(inaccurate sensor), IE 1.1(coating gives no grip), razer copperhead(finicky sensor), & some a4tech mice(bad sensors) and various other non gaming mice. All of these shapes were fine for FPS/palm grip.


518 is quite precise provided you do not mind an angle snapping algorithm. A lot of early a4tech mice are pretty decent aswell.
Quote:


> For claw/finger grip almost any small mouse will do.
> Exactly. If you're "needing" anything above 800dpi you either don't know how to setup your mouse settings(EPP off, 6/11, use ingame sensitivity cvar) or you're on a massive(~32"+?) or multiple monitors.


Personal preference. I can see within 2k DPI reasonable if you're *experienced* with a specific range via resolution width and length.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Regardless. If I use taller feet I will lose CPI no matter the actual value the mouse produces. I can perceive the change in CPI with different mouse feet (surface height) more than I can with surface. At least with the pads I tried.
> 
> The point is I want to use something close to 500 (prefer 600) and 450 is the closest to that. If I get below 400 with a certain sensor height and surface, it would suck. Keep in mind that BST has stated he will use 1.2mm mouse feet. That has a major impact on the values out of the box, amongst other things.'


Quite positive a majority of his audience wants 400.. and well hes limited to what's inherently provided. Estimates are mere estimates.. plethora of factors you're not considering.

I believe he stated that his software will be capable of simple interpolation in steps of 50, though I cant vouch how accurate that will be. The issue is more or less this community and manufacture relying on dated hardware. Might be subject to change in future though, who knows.









Personally, I'm fairly bored of seeing the same crap over and over again without innovation. It's 2013, not 2003.. Hard to get excited over products with the same ole limitations.

Suppose I am becoming more and more interested in ID and ergonomics though


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> I was referring to the technique used, when you make higher dpi from a lower native one you use interpolation. When you want to decrease dpi from a higher REAL one you use what I called "retro-interpolation".


That's still the wrong term. What you call "retro-interpolation" is interpolation and what you call "interpolation" is extrapolation. I still understand what you mean, but we should handle terms correctly so everyone gets what is being talked about.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> So you expect every single gamer playing a fps?
> What about games like moba, RTS where most people use higher DPI.
> So yes a TON of gamers need more then 800 dpi, and that include progamers.


ONLY FPS ARE REAL GAMES!!!!111 hurrdurr!

Joking aside: FPS games are the most demanding in terms of sensor performance, that's why mainly FPS players look forward to the Ninox mice. Other games can be played perfectly fine with the newest laser mice IMO.


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> ONLY FPS ARE REAL GAMES!!!!111 hurrdurr!


Of course, and some FPS games are more real than the other







.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> So you expect every single gamer playing a fps?
> What about games like moba, RTS where most people use higher DPI.
> So yes a TON of gamers need more then 800 dpi, and that include progamers.
> 
> Yes you can increase mouse sensitivity in most games that dont have a console but a sens slider and get problems, but thats not really to smart.


You misread my post. When I talked about FPS and RTS I was only talking about the shape of mice.
But regarding "RTS requiring higher DPI than FPS" that's just silly. It's completely preference in both games whether you use high or low sensitivity. I play Starcraft 2(masters) on 1680x1050 and there's no reason why I would need over 400dpi. In fact, I just went into the game and maxed out the sensitivity to 100 from my normal 58 and if you're using that high sensitivity you're likely a very low level player as there is no way you would be able to accurately click on units to micro. Much less with anything over 400dpi or even 800(which I said was the maximum any(98%+) gamer would ever need).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> 518 is quite precise provided you do not mind an angle snapping algorithm. A lot of early a4tech mice are pretty decent aswell.


That angle snapping is likely what makes it feel imprecise and thus why it's not possible to use a high sensitivity with it.
I haven't tried many of the a4tech mice. Only the 750bf.


----------



## resis

In all seriousness, the first person is the best thing that was invented in a game.


----------



## popups

In the early days of CS I used a sensitivity in the 3 range with 400 CPI. I went down to the 2 range with 1600 CPI. Then down to the low 1s with 900 CPI. Currently I am using 500 CPI with 1.2 sensitivity.

When I try to use anything higher than 900 CPI (these days) I perform worse than I have ever done. I cannot go back to a higher speed like I used in the early CAL days. After years of playing, speaking for myself, a high sensitivity is for a lower skilled player.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> So you expect every single gamer playing a fps?
> What about games like moba, RTS where most people use higher DPI.
> So yes a TON of gamers need more then 800 dpi, and that include progamers.
> 
> Yes you can increase mouse sensitivity in most games that dont have a console but a sens slider and get problems, but thats not really to smart.


Can you list the "pro" gamers that effectively utilize more than 1250 CPI?

We are talking about single displays, using reasonable resolutions, that higher level players use.

As you should know the monitor setup is also important. Arguably more important for FPS games than strategy games. The same can be said for mice/sensors. In other words, FPS players have to be more picky/demanding, at least they feel that way. Dare I say strategy games do not require such nit picking?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I believe he stated that his software will be capable of simple interpolation in steps of 50, though I cant vouch how accurate that will be.


Eeew... software. I don't use that.


----------



## jr92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> In the early days of CS I used a sensitivity in the 3 range with 400 CPI. I went down to the 2 range with 1600 CPI. Then down to the low 1s with 900 CPI. Currently I am using 500 CPI with 1.2 sensitivity.
> 
> When I try to use anything higher than 900 CPI (these days) I perform worse than I have ever done. I cannot go back to a higher speed like I used in the early CAL days. After years of playing, speaking for myself, a high sensitivity is for a lower skilled player.
> Can you list the "pro" gamers that effectively utilize more than 1250 CPI?
> 
> We are talking about single displays, using reasonable resolutions, that higher level players use.
> 
> As you should know the monitor setup is also important. Arguably more important for FPS games than strategy games. The same can be said for mice/sensors. In other words, FPS players have to be more picky/demanding, at least they feel that way. Dare I say strategy games do not require such nit picking?


I've played between 400 and 1800 since forever and to be completely honest it's preference. If you got f0rest or get_right to use 1800 dpi and adjust their sensitivity they would still be as beasty as they ever were... Don't you remember when the Deathadder originally came out and everyone was using 1800 dpi 3 window bars? Specifically mousesports... cYx was argurably the best back at that time, seriously it's all preference...

I don't like smoothness so I use a low dpi, flicking feels more snappy at lower dpi's and I think that's preferred in most fps games since it gives you more of a raw feel of your mouse in the movements.


----------



## Yahar

in cs 1.6 and before with WM_MOUSEMOVE the lower dpi you had, the better max speeds you can get before neg. accel kicks in. You could decrease the effect by increasing reso tho...

For example using:

400 dpi and 640 reso width = 2 m/s before neg accel

400 dpi 800 res = 2.5 m/s

400 dpi 1400 res = 4.5 m/s

2000 dpi 640 res = 0.4 m/s

2000 dpi 1400 res = 0.9 m/s

So you can clearly see why low DPI was the only choice in counter strike vanillla to 1.6. Altough now just a week ago, patch was made which allows raw_input and sensitivity values below 1. So DPI or Reso doesn't matter anymore, or shouldn't.

Also, in some games vehicle sensitivity is TIED to DPI, this makes a very high DPI necessary.. Well of course that is due to sloppy coding, and is result probably from market viewpoint of having higher average DPI mouses on the market.. anyway It sucks.

That said I prefer myself 400-800 DPI, but have to switch to MAX DPI (AM 2300) due to sloppy coding in few games I play.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jr92*
> 
> I've played between 400 and 1800 since forever and to be completely honest it's preference. If you got f0rest or get_right to use 1800 dpi and adjust their sensitivity they would still be as beasty as they ever were... Don't you remember when the Deathadder originally came out and everyone was using 1800 dpi 3 window bars? Specifically mousesports... cYx was argurably the best back at that time, seriously it's all preference...
> 
> I don't like smoothness so I use a low dpi, flicking feels more snappy at lower dpi's and I think that's preferred in most fps games since it gives you more of a raw feel of your mouse in the movements.


It was only until recently you could use below one or raw. So no, get_right and f0rest had no choice. Just like I didn't. You would understand if you played.

Changing Windows acceleration curve is something people don't want to do. Why mess with it when you can use the CPI you always have?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> in cs 1.6 and before with WM_MOUSEMOVE the lower dpi you had, the better max speeds you can get before neg. accel kicks in. You could decrease the effect by increasing reso tho...
> 
> So you can clearly see why low DPI was the only choice in counter strike vanillla to 1.6. Altough now just a week ago, patch was made which allows raw_input and sensitivity values below 1. So DPI or Reso doesn't matter anymore, or shouldn't.
> 
> Also, in some games vehicle sensitivity is TIED to DPI, this makes a very high DPI necessary.. Well of course that is due to sloppy coding, and is result probably from market viewpoint of having higher average DPI mouses on the market.. anyway It sucks.
> 
> That said I prefer myself 400-800 DPI, but have to switch to MAX DPI (AM 2300) due to sloppy coding in few games I play.


Glad they listened to suggestions from others and myself, but its late. At least in GO it comes with that ability. However, CS didn't have raw input or below 1 sensitivity values 99.9% of its life.

I think people are not understanding the point of this mouse. If you want a good tracking mouse with high CPI get a Razer. This mouse isn't catering to that group of people who lust for high CPI numbers or are just casual players. There is no point for BST to try to be successful in that realm when there are many doing so already.


----------



## Yahar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It was only until recently you could use below one or raw. So no, get_right and f0rest had no choice. Just like I didn't. You would understand if you played.
> 
> Changing Windows acceleration curve is something people don't want to do. Why mess with it when you can use the CPI you always have?
> 
> Glad they listened to suggestions from others and myself, but its late. At least in GO it comes with that ability.
> 
> I think people are not understanding the point of the mouse. If you want a good tracking mouse with high CPI get a Razer. This mouse isn't catering to that group of people who lust for high CPI numbers or are just casual players. There is no point for BST to try to be successful in that realm when there are many doing so already.


Sorry, if you were responding to me, your post made zero sense. Please read my post again. I have played cs since from the beta.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Sorry, if you were responding to me, your post made zero sense. Please read my post again. I have played cs since from the beta.


It was a general comment to you and the post above.

To put it simply. There was no need for high CPI back in the day. It was until recent years did it become usable. Generally, it still isn't necessary. Top players (competition players) do not feel like they need any thing above 1800, if that.

Arguing over the merit of high CPI for casual games, for casual players, is rather useless.


----------



## Yahar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It was a general comment to you and the post above.
> 
> To put it simply. There was no need for high CPI back in the day. It was until recent years did it become usable. Generally, it still isn't necessary. Top players (competition players) do not feel like they need any thing above 1800, if that.
> 
> Arguing over the merit of high CPI for casual games, for casual players, is rather useless.


ok, I read your edit. Makes sense now. Thought that acceleration part was for me.

Still, there is need in competitive games for higher DPI. In vehicles, (for example in Tribes:Ascend). Which is just a result of sloppy coding tho.. Generally you're right, on 1080p more than 800 is not really needed imo.


----------



## vss vintorez

The ninox aurora performance (http://www.esreality.com/post/2246615/re-new-gaming-mouse-development#pid2363237) really reminds me to roccat savu. It seems to have a little more tracking speed but it surely was the surface. The pictures of the cursor quality looks identically to roccat savu.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> That's still the wrong term. What you call "retro-interpolation" is interpolation and what you call "interpolation" is extrapolation. I still understand what you mean, but we should handle terms correctly so everyone gets what is being talked about.
> ONLY FPS ARE REAL GAMES!!!!111 hurrdurr!
> 
> Joking aside: FPS games are the most demanding in terms of sensor performance, that's why mainly FPS players look forward to the Ninox mice. Other games can be played perfectly fine with the newest laser mice IMO.


Nope you're confusing the terms. What you call "extra polation" is interpolation. And what I call "retro-interpolation" doesn't have a name related to interpolation (I call it that way; you are not "filling holes", you just delete values from existing ones so It's nothing related to interpolation).


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> Nope you're confusing the terms. What you call "extra polation" is interpolation. And what I call "retro-interpolation" doesn't have a name related to interpolation (I call it that way; you are not "filling holes", you just delete values from existing ones so It's nothing related to interpolation).


"In mathematics, extrapolation is the process of estimating, beyond the original observation interval, the value of a variable on the basis of its relationship with another variable. It is similar to interpolation, which produces estimates between known observations, but extrapolation is subject to greater uncertainty and a higher risk of producing meaningless results." (source)

So if you calculate higher CPI than the sensor can track natively that is not interpolation. To be "inter" it must be "between" something as the word already suggests. If you want to call the dropping of counts interpolation could be debatable, but I'm not sure every mouse calculates custom CPI by dropping counts.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jr92*
> 
> I've played between 400 and 1800 since forever and to be completely honest it's preference. If you got f0rest or get_right to use 1800 dpi and adjust their sensitivity they would still be as beasty as they ever were... Don't you remember when the Deathadder originally came out and everyone was using 1800 dpi 3 window bars? Specifically mousesports... cYx was argurably the best back at that time, seriously it's all preference...
> 
> I don't like smoothness so I use a low dpi, flicking feels more snappy at lower dpi's and I think that's preferred in most fps games since it gives you more of a raw feel of your mouse in the movements.


You're missing the point. There is NO NEED(except for rare occasions) for more than ~800 dpi on single, reasonably sized monitors.

In order for 1800 dpi to become functional windows sensitivity bar needs to be lowered, just like you said. These crazy high DPIs that new gaming mice have been sporting in recent years is mostly a gimmick.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> "In mathematics, extrapolation is the process of estimating, beyond the original observation interval, the value of a variable on the basis of its relationship with another variable. It is similar to interpolation, which produces estimates between known observations, but extrapolation is subject to greater uncertainty and a higher risk of producing meaningless results." (source)
> 
> So if you calculate higher CPI than the sensor can track natively that is not interpolation. To be "inter" it must be "between" something as the word already suggests. If you want to call the dropping of counts interpolation could be debatable, but I'm not sure every mouse calculates custom CPI by dropping counts.
> 
> Anyway, we're getting off topic here.


Last time I repeat the same stuff. You are missunderstanding everything... I'll give you a clear example of what interpolation is.

In a 400dpi mouse (interpolated to 800dpi):
Mouse detects *(+1x,0y)* movement.
The cpu inside the mouse multiplies it by 2 resulting in *(+2x,0y)* movement, but it will be too fake and noob to do that SO...
The cpu also will FILL the gap by doing 2 TIMES *(+1x,0y)*. [INTERPOLATION]
First dot was where the cursor was *(ax,by) -> ((a+2)x,by)*. And they interpolate the middle one making it TWO times. *(ax,by) -> ((a+1)x,by) -> (((a+1)+1)x,by)*

In mice you never extrapolate. you don't create values you don't know and you cannot estimate.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> I was referring to the technique used, when you make higher dpi from a lower native one you use interpolation. When you want to decrease dpi from a higher REAL one you use what I called "retro-interpolation".


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> Last time I repeat the same stuff. You are missunderstanding everything... I'll give you a clear example of what interpolation is.
> 
> In a 400dpi mouse (interpolated to 800dpi):
> Mouse detects *(+1x,0y)* movement.
> The cpu inside the mouse multiplies it by 2 resulting in *(+2x,0y)* movement, but it will be too fake and noob to do that SO...
> The cpu also will FILL the gap by doing 2 TIMES *(+1x,0y)*. [INTERPOLATION]
> First dot was where the cursor was *(ax,by) -> ((a+2)x,by)*. And they interpolate the middle one making it TWO times. *(ax,by) -> ((a+1)x,by) -> (((a+1)+1)x,by)*
> 
> In mice you never extrapolate. you don't create values you don't know and you cannot estimate.


I would agree with your last sentence, but you contradict yourself with the statement above. Maybe you meant something else, but what you say is "making higher dpi from a lower native one"

And your post above is a calculation, but not interpolation.

Whatever, this discussion is pretty pointless as this might simply be a language barrier of two non-native English speakers.


----------



## Ukkooh

Just to get this thread back on topic:
Bst, when are you going to open the preorder site?


----------



## Degree

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> Just to get this thread back on topic:
> Bst, when are you going to open the preorder site?


Seriously, it's been getting offtopic for awhile now


----------



## Oeshon

When is the mouse coming out approximately, in a month or two or by the end of the year?


----------



## Bentz

We're not sure yet, but bst's latest update was on post 661


----------



## viowastaken

OK, I've got to unload something here BST.

Besides gaming I'm very interested in entrepreneurship and business. I have a few small-time businesses under my belt, and a degree in marketing.

Either way, I've got to critique the effort being put into this by you. You have a significant core of your future customers which are quite literally drooling in these threads almost daily, checking your website daily, signining up for your news letter etc. -
The mouse has been in the works for how long now exactly? and you don't even have a website up and running yet? the news letter I believe was only made after I suggested it, and your posts in all your threads are relatively few and far between. All previous projected dates of release and pre-orders have not been met.

I understand the delay bit, as things can and do go wrong, but from a business point of view I think this entire project is a bit of a disaster. I really get the feeling that you don't actually care much. Whenever you have customers as interested and passionate as the ones you have, you should be feeding people with -DAILY- status updates however minor. Daily pics of the mouse/packaging or some news bit.

I suggest you make a FB page which you update with info and pics frequently, finish your web site... Last I checked the pictures of the mouse are even taken with a very poor phone quality camera. I mean come on. I seemingly put more effort into selling my old coffee machine on craigslist than you do in your entire business venture.

I have faith in your product and your intentions, but it seems like just about everything else is bordering on scandalous.

With respect.


----------



## Yahar

I need the mouse, promised myself to not get a new mouse before this thing. But this really needs to get released. What's the holdup? What's the new release date?


----------



## resis

I agree with viowastaken, from a business point of view the thing was a bit clumsy and some chances were missed. I guess announcing things too early isn't good, but I guess BST didn't mean to make an official announcement, but just let people who cared know. I guess a real official announcement, with a website will come, but the people who already know about this mouse feel like something went wrong. I guess it's about the perspective.
I also thing issues arose that nobody could foresee and that the released was constantly pushed back thereof. I think BST meant to release it last year, but as always, things do not go according to plan. BST likely didn't expect this to take this long and cannot do anything about it.

Worst case scenario is that BST's business plan doesn't work out and things are uncertain from now on (screwed by partners? heavier on fonancials than expected? use your imagination...). I don't think that, but who knows.

In any case, viowastaken is right, but I think he is interpreting too much into this. I see BST's announcement as semi-official and thus he has no pressure to fulfill any expectations at this point, but hat doesn't change the fact that the initial interest for this product is the important wind in the sails that becomes weaker the longer you push the release back. I'm sure there is a number of individuals who already lost interest and bought another product and will likely not come back.

BST, just hurry, lol.


----------



## avinin1

LOL. I like how BST holds you guys in the balls. sorry about the rudeness but its just beacause I dont believe how pathetic it becomes.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avinin1*
> 
> LOL. I like how BST holds you guys in the balls. sorry about the rudeness but its just beacause I dont believe how pathetic it becomes.


Your English/that sentence isn't at a level where it's even remotely comprehensible. Try again and we'll let you know if we're offended


----------



## resis

viowastaken, no need to bully a non-native English speaker.

avoinin1, we had not laid down any moneys, so what balls are you talkin' about exactly? We are waiting, if it's there, we will buy, if not, we have other stuff to waste money on. I am going to by a new mouse soon before BST's comes out, I may still likely buy BST's mouse if it's there, to see if it is as good as it seems.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

lol your post reminds me of cspromod


----------



## scudds

So what mouse are you looking to get, resis?

I guess the most similar mouses to bst's right now (that are half-way decent) are the Abyssus and maybe Roccat Savu?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> OK, I've got to unload something here BST.
> 
> Besides gaming I'm very interested in entrepreneurship and business. I have a few small-time businesses under my belt, and a degree in marketing.
> 
> Either way, I've got to critique the effort being put into this by you. You have a significant core of your future customers which are quite literally drooling in these threads almost daily, checking your website daily, signining up for your news letter etc. -
> The mouse has been in the works for how long now exactly? and you don't even have a website up and running yet? the news letter I believe was only made after I suggested it, and your posts in all your threads are relatively few and far between. All previous projected dates of release and pre-orders have not been met.
> 
> I understand the delay bit, as things can and do go wrong, but from a business point of view I think this entire project is a bit of a disaster. I really get the feeling that you don't actually care much. Whenever you have customers as interested and passionate as the ones you have, you should be feeding people with -DAILY- status updates however minor. Daily pics of the mouse/packaging or some news bit.
> 
> I suggest you make a FB page which you update with info and pics frequently, finish your web site... Last I checked the pictures of the mouse are even taken with a very poor phone quality camera. I mean come on. I seemingly put more effort into selling my old coffee machine on craigslist than you do in your entire business venture.
> 
> I have faith in your product and your intentions, but it seems like just about everything else is bordering on scandalous.
> 
> With respect.


I know there aren't many updates at the moment, but there just hasn't been much to say, or that for various reasons I can't. There aren't really any minor things I could do, either. There is a bit of a backlog of things I want to announce but its just too early.

Theres good reasons for everything, like no new photos and the website isn't up, but it just takes time to explain, and some things I can't talk about or show photos of. I would if I could, I promise! There are a lot of photos of the mouse here though, I know they aren't the best but they do show the mouse from pretty much every angle: http://erasem.com/gallery/
(Its from just before the beta test with the A3050 sensor, btw, thats why it doesn't have a logo in some photos).

I could write a very long post explaining a lot of things, but it would just be a very long way of saying nothing bad has happened and 95% of everything is finished. For example the website is practically done, I was just waiting for some updates for some things it uses (services etc), and I want to finish the artwork for the product pages. Some of the things I use on the site and things connected with the site, haven't been around for long, so I've kept my eye on some things to do as late as possible, so that I end up going with the best company/service at the time.

At the moment I'm spending a lot of time on the final software UI layout and graphics, because during development things change and ideas happen, and in the end I just decided to re-do them. But thats 95% done, just got a bit of tweaking to do in the next day or so. After thats finished I am moving on to finalise the website. I'm working on it every day, I know I'm quiet but a lot of things are being finished atm, so theres not much to say, its mostly just waiting.

When its ready I will do a lot of marketing, run some tourneys/competitions, send out for reviews, tons of things. But at the moment its too early to do any of that, and there isn't much I can fill facebook with, I do actually have a page reserved on there though, its just not online yet. I think Resis is right that this is a bit of a unique situation, because normally at this stage a company wouldn't have announced anything to the public yet, for good reasons - eg. there really isn't a great deal to say, so it seems like nothing is happening, which reflects badly, even though nothing bad has actually happened.

In the next couple of days I'm getting an updated version of the Aurora (btw I don't get many of them, the last one was just before the Chinese new year (around feb 5)). When I get it I will make an update shortly afterwards, which will explain whats been happening and how things are going to move forwards. Theres also a few other updates I want to make which will follow shortly after. Like I say I know its been very quiet the past 3 months, but now the development is coming to an end, things should start getting a lot more lively.


----------



## jayfkay

And when can we expect a release? Because this is too good to be true, unless the mouse turns out to have some cheap ass parts, the community will lift it into legendary status pretty soon. Personally I find the lighting an useless gimmick for little boys though..


----------



## AssassiinGamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> And when can we expect a release? Because this is too good to be true, unless the mouse turns out to have some cheap ass parts, the community will lift it into legendary status pretty soon. Personally I find the lighting an useless gimmick for little boys though..


You might find it a gimmick, but 90% of the gaming market love flashy lights


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AssassiinGamer*
> 
> You might find it a gimmick, but 90% of the gaming market love flashy lights


This mouse is designed for the remaining 10% of the gaming market.


----------



## AssassiinGamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> This mouse is designed for the remaining 10% of the gaming market.


Not particularly true. A lot of people here on OCN like customisable lights.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AssassiinGamer*
> 
> Not particularly true. A lot of people here on OCN like customisable lights.


I didn't say it was designed for OCN gamers. Reading comprehension?


----------



## AssassiinGamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I didn't say it was designed for OCN gamers. Reading comprehension?


I know you didn't, but it makes sense to have lights on a product unless they rocket the price up. People who don't like them can turn them off.


----------



## FoxWolf1

It might actually be cheaper for it to have the lights, if the cost of the LEDs is less than that of modifying the OEM shell with clear components to opaque components (so that it doesn't just look like it's supposed to have lights but is broken).

Personally, I don't mind having them, anyway.


----------



## discoprince

i dont mind the lights, will be nice to have some updates soon though, cant wait.
looking to add one of these to my already growing mouse collection.


----------



## bst

The lights are there mainly to give you information. You can do something like: have a profile where all its DPI steps are slightly different shades of red, and another profile where they're shades of green, so you have a way of knowing which profile and DPI step you are using. I don't use it myself that much because I pretty much stick to 800 DPI at all times, but I can see it being useful. Of course you can turn them all off if you don't want any lighting.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scudds*
> 
> So what mouse are you looking to get, resis?
> 
> I guess the most similar mouses to bst's right now (that are half-way decent) are the Abyssus and maybe Roccat Savu?


It is going to be the Zowie FK. I have the AM and told myself to not buy another (overpriced) Zowie mouse, but the FK seems like improving all the things I criticized about the AM and the shape is godly, so I give Zowie this one last chance.

I tested the Savu, fantastic mouse, but shape was not for me. Shape is a very critical element for me. I consider the SteelSeries' Sensei shape the most perfect shape ever conceived, and the FK comes the closest to it (I can tell by the look).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AssassiinGamer*
> 
> Not particularly true. A lot of people here on OCN like customisable lights.


I love the lights, but only when done decently, like the Razer mice (wheel only and a little logo is all I want), but I totally hate overdone lights from all sides and headlight, absolutely can't stand that.

Thing is, my PC is my entertainment machine and lights add to the mood, especially if you can set your color. Also lights help to find the mouse easily in the dark (pushed my AM off the mat few times already), so there's a functional side for me, too.

My AM does not have lights and I don't miss them, so it's not important, but I really love the glowing wheel on my Diamondback 3G Red (especially if it is red).

So, lights got my vote, but are of lowest priority.


----------



## popups

I rather stay away from lighting. I can only stand red, maybe orange. If a mouse only lit the wheel in a small area that is fine.

With the OEM shell I know (as much as I can tell) I will not like the placement of the wheel. The way I hold my mouse, I will not be able to use the scroll wheel, it is to far back. That is an issue I have with the AM, because I place my whole hand on the mouse and use my middle finger to scroll. With the AM if I want to use the scroll wheel I move my grip back. As with the AM, I don't see myself being able to use the wheel with the OEM shell being that short. The Daimondback was better.

If the AM had the apex further back, like the OEM shell BST is using, it wouldn't be a problem. However, there are many more flaws with the AM shell other than the arch. One major issue is the fact the AM has a very small area for optimal switch control. If I click in a certain area I may get around 66 clicks in 10 seconds. Clicking in another part of the shell I can get 75 clicks in 10 seconds.

I hope the shell doesn't have the sloppiness the AM and EC have. I think the FK looks much more improved, but I haven't tried that yet. I say the FK looks improved because certain things I would suggest look to have been done.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AssassiinGamer*
> 
> Not particularly true. A lot of people here on OCN like customisable lights.


But not at the expense of performance. Performance comes first, if that's in order, nice and shineh pwetty lights are like icing on the cake


----------



## HWI

I am not a big fan of lights, if it has to have lights I prefer white.


----------



## AssassiinGamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> But not at the expense of performance. Performance comes first, if that's in order, nice and shineh pwetty lights are like icing on the cake


Of course, performance and shape always come first, aesthetics later.


----------



## AssassiinGamer

I personally don't mind lights. If they are there, cool, if they aren't, cool.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HWI*
> 
> I am not a big fan of lights, if it has to have lights I prefer white.


I prefer the colors red and orange because they are not bright like blue or white. White is all wavelengths combined so. Plus it is said that blue and violet light is harmful for your eyes. I don't want mice that have distracting wavelengths like blue or violet when I am gaming.

I have covered or disabled almost all the LEDs on my stuff.


----------



## jayfkay

The mouse may be finalized already but I really think the design should consider a resting edge for the ring finger, like the mx510 design has, so you can rest your ring finger next to your right mouse button without accidentally clicking it. You could for exaxmple just make the right mouse button a little less wide so a little space is left right to it.
This is 100% mcuh more comfortable than having the ring finger with the pinky..


----------



## Ukkooh

bst's latest post from ESR:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> I got some things I want to say soon, but I'm just waiting for some answers from the factory on some things. Its pretty cool though (well I think it is). I don't want to say just yet what it is because I want to make sure its all possible.


----------



## jayfkay

I still think the body of the mouse should be slighty bigger and more ergonomic, leaning towards mx500 shape.. its not a mircale that its the most sold shape for a mouse worldwide.


----------



## nex83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> I still think the body of the mouse should be slighty bigger and more ergonomic, leaning towards mx500 shape.. its not a mircale that its the most sold shape for a mouse worldwide.


You are completely and utterly and missing the point. If someone started car company with intent to produce small and light sport coupe complaining that you want car with space for 8 passengers is pointless.


----------



## jayfkay

At which point did bst ever say his goal was to make a small claw gripp mouse??? your post is pointless without any backup.
afaik bsts goal is to make an appealing mouse to dedicated gamers.. as such a slightly bigger shape would certainly be advantageous... I am still surprised the mouse is much smaller than the wmo.. if it at least had wmo size then no problem.


----------



## popups

That is the "best" mold he could get. He didn't design it. Maybe one day he will get a chance to.

It does seem that most people like very small mice and the claw grip.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> At which point did bst ever say his goal was to make a small claw gripp mouse??? your post is pointless without any backup.
> afaik bsts goal is to make an appealing mouse to dedicated gamers.. as such a slightly bigger shape would certainly be advantageous... I am still surprised the mouse is much smaller than the wmo.. if it at least had wmo size then no problem.


There are many quality mice on the market that have palmish shapes like the Savu/Deathadder/G400s etc. I don't think it would be wise to release a palm shape mouse to compete with those as a first mouse. Most smaller ambidextrous mice have been neglected and cheaped out on. Think about what was on the market for smaller ambidextrous mice...

Abyssus - Always had jitter problems on cloth pads. Razer didn't want to fix it and release a version that was able to be flashed with updated firmware.

Kinzu V2 - Cheaped out on the sensor for whatever reason, slight prediction and very low perfect control speed.

Kana - Same lesser quality sensor but also terrible micro switches with loads of travel that go bad very quickly.

Mico - Another pixart sensor but Zowie never fixed the "jump" bug.

G100 - Never left Asia and included a sub par sensor. Skylit did a good short review of it.

G100s - New logitech mouse that hasn't been released, it might be good but once again they felt the need to downgrade the sensor from what is in the G400/G400s.

Where's the small ambidextrous mouse that gets some respect? No where, that's where the BST mouse comes in.


----------



## nex83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> At which point did bst ever say his goal was to make a small claw gripp mouse??? your post is pointless without any backup.


From day one when he posted first post on ESR about this project goal was small claw grip mouse. And everyone who followed this since then knows this. Small claw grip mouse was exactly the reason why this project was so well received at ESR.

Already in December 2011 he decided he's doing mouse similar to MX300/G1.

If you for any reason doubt this then search threads at ESR, I'm not your search engine.


----------



## lisward

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> There are many quality mice on the market that have palmish shapes like the Savu/Deathadder/G400s etc. I don't think it would be wise to release a palm shape mouse to compete with those as a first mouse. Most smaller ambidextrous mice have been neglected and cheaped out on. Think about what was on the market for smaller ambidextrous mice...
> 
> Abyssus - Always had jitter problems on cloth pads. Razer didn't want to fix it and release a version that was able to be flashed with updated firmware.
> 
> Kinzu V2 - Cheaped out on the sensor for whatever reason, slight prediction and very low perfect control speed.
> 
> Kana - Same lesser quality sensor but also terrible micro switches with loads of travel that go bad very quickly.
> 
> Mico - Another pixart sensor but Zowie never fixed the "jump" bug.
> 
> G100 - Never left Asia and included a sub par sensor. Skylit did a good short review of it.
> 
> G100s - New logitech mouse that hasn't been released, it might be good but once again they felt the need to downgrade the sensor from what is in the G400/G400s.
> 
> Where's the small ambidextrous mouse that gets some respect? No where, that's where the BST mouse comes in.


Totally agree with you, I'm looking for something that's exactly like what BST is making, I have seen mice with its kinda shape, but nothing with a decent sensor. I have tried mice with that shape I find it really comfortable, I'm currently using an abyssus which is the most comfortable I can get, but I really really want that shape badly. I probably will snap up the G100s if it isnt god awful like the g100


----------



## Oeshon

Honestly I don't understand what is the obsession with having an ergonomic mouse that fits like a glove. I see many players these days want some sort of mouse that feels like a glove. The only logical explanation I can think why new players would want this is because they bought the dpi bs and they are using 5000 dpi and 15 sens, so they barely move their mouse, so they just want their hand to rest like on a cushion while making micro movements in their terrible aim at cod.

Maybe it is just me but the bigger and more ergonomic the mouse it seems harder to play with medium to low sens. It also limits your aim to using mostly arm, less wrist.

I used the MX518 for years in competitive playing, and I never liked the shape of it. I'm a claw and fingertip user myself, and the first time I switched from the MX518 to wmo I could understand why the wmo shape is so popular. It is much easier to control the mouse and make precise movements that include both wrist and arm. The mouse also feels natural to control, and you find yourself being able to hit certain angles in games that were harder to hit with other mice.

I think bst's mouse will be a great successor to the wmo, the only thing that worries me is the width. It is only 61while the wmo I think is 66, so the mouse might feel a bit narrow.


----------



## MKUL7R4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That is the "best" mold he could get. He didn't design it. Maybe one day he will get a chance to.
> 
> It does seem that most people like very small mice and the claw grip.


A few days ago I switched back to a small mouse (Razer Abyssus) from my Mionix Naos 3200, and I also went back down to 1600 DPI from 3200 (1920x1080 rez). My hands are fairly large but after a day of adjusting, I'm extremely happy I made the switch. For years I gamed with a cheap tiny Logitech mouse in a fingertip grip, and I didn't realize how much I loved tiny mice. I bought into the palm grip and comfort BS with the Mionix, and it feels amazing to come back to small mice for SC2 and Dota 2. The level of precision is unrivaled. In fact I'd like to go even smaller than the Abyssus; I was considering the Zowie Mico but I'm also interested in this BST mouse.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MKUL7R4*
> 
> A few days ago I switched back to a small mouse (Razer Abyssus) from my Mionix Naos 3200, and I also went back down to 1600 DPI from 3200 (1920x1080 rez). My hands are fairly large but after a day of adjusting, I'm extremely happy I made the switch. For years I gamed with a cheap tiny Logitech mouse in a fingertip grip, and I didn't realize how much I loved tiny mice. I bought into the palm grip and comfort BS with the Mionix, and it feels amazing to come back to small mice for SC2 and Dota 2. The level of precision is unrivaled. In fact I'd like to go even smaller than the Abyssus; I was considering the Zowie Mico but I'm also interested in this BST mouse.


the zowie mico is really poor I think. I had one and it was mediocre in almost every way. If you want a competitor in the small mice market, I'd either wait for the g100s/BST mouse, or look into the razer krait 2013. It has a mild smoothing feature, but in my opinion it's severely exaggerated.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oeshon*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Comment
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I don't understand what is the obsession with having an ambidextrous mouse that fits like a glove. I see many players these days want some sort of mouse that feels like a glove. The only logical explanation I can think why new players would want this is because they bought the dpi bs and they are using 5000 dpi and 15 sens, so they barely move their mouse, so they just want their hand to rest like on a cushion while making micro movements in their terrible aim at cod.
> 
> Maybe it is just me but the bigger and more ambidextrous the mouse it seems harder to play with medium to low sens. It also limits your aim to using mostly arm, less wrist.
> 
> I used the MX518 for years in competitive playing, and I never liked the shape of it. I'm a claw and fingertip user myself, and the first time I switched from the MX518 to wmo I could understand why the wmo shape is so popular. It is much easier to control the mouse and make precise movements that include both wrist and arm. The mouse also feels natural to control, and you find yourself being able to hit certain angles in games that were harder to hit with other mice.
> 
> I think bst's mouse will be a great successor to the wmo, the only thing that worries me is the width. It is only 61while the wmo I think is 66, so the mouse might feel a bit narrow.


I completely disagree, if you are talking about FPS games.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MKUL7R4*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Comment
> 
> 
> 
> A few days ago I switched back to a small mouse (Razer Abyssus) from my Mionix Naos 3200, and I also went back down to 1600 DPI from 3200 (1920x1080 rez). My hands are fairly large but after a day of adjusting, I'm extremely happy I made the switch. For years I gamed with a cheap tiny Logitech mouse in a fingertip grip, and I didn't realize how much I loved tiny mice. I bought into the palm grip and comfort BS with the Mionix, and it feels amazing to come back to small mice for SC2 and Dota 2. The level of precision is unrivaled. In fact I'd like to go even smaller than the Abyssus; I was considering the Zowie Mico but I'm also interested in this BST mouse.


BST's mouse isn't really focused towards strategy games. It is safe to say that those games do not require a very high performing sensor. There are many mice that will work well for those games.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> BST's mouse isn't really focused towards strategy games. It is safe to say that those games do not require a very high performing sensor. There are many mice that will work well for those games.


In spite of how "RTS mouse" has come to be marketing speak for "This mouse's sensor isn't very good", I don't think this is true at all. If you include MOBAs in there as well, it's even more false


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Comment
> 
> 
> 
> In spite of how "RTS mouse" has come to be marketing speak for "This mouse's sensor isn't very good", I don't think this is true at all. If you include MOBAs in there as well, it's even more false


Do you need 3m/s malfunction speed for MOBA games? Wouldn't a Wheel Mouse Optical do just as well as BST's mouse? Or do you want a ludicrous CPI?


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Do you need 3m/s malfunction speed for MOBA games? Wouldn't a Wheel Mouse Optical do just as well as BST's mouse? Or do you want a ludicrous CPI?


A lot of mice that are marketed as RTS mice have the 9500 in them, I can't help but imagine that that sensor's acceleration could screw stuff up. As for the WMO, 400 dpi is too low, there's no sensitivity adjustment in this kind of game.


----------



## MKUL7R4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> BST's mouse isn't really focused towards strategy games. It is safe to say that those games do not require a very high performing sensor. There are many mice that will work well for those games.


You don't need precision for RTS games? Okay.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MKUL7R4*
> 
> You don't need precision for RTS games? Okay.


If you do not understand what I am saying... There are many optical mice (3090 or not) out there currently that are good enough for those games. Those games are not the same as playing an FPS with raw input. It's not exactly the same scenario. The 3050 can provide all you need, for example. There is no "need" for a 3090.

I will end it there, as this can go on forever.


----------



## jayfkay

Yes you do but the fuss about gaming mice for rts is completely irrational. Just get a mouse and be comfortable with it. ******* per pixel precision, acceleration and that stuff is not as important for RTS. Clicking an unit is easier than clicking on a small head 200m away.


----------



## vss vintorez

Still waiting for one of these and then brag at a lan party.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Isn't bst releasing 2 mice? 1 that's small and 3 buttons for claw grip users/RTS games, and the other mouse a 5 button medium sized mouse for various grip types including palm grip for fps?


----------



## ZareliMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> Yes you do but the fuss about gaming mice for rts is completely irrational. Just get a mouse and be comfortable with it. ******* per pixel precision, acceleration and that stuff is not as important for RTS. Clicking an unit is easier than clicking on a small head 200m away.


I disagree, why wouldn't a flawless sensor help in RTS games ? Basically when someone beyond 180 aps, always can benefit from every extent of precision.


----------



## Skylit

How do you define flawless?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZareliMan*
> 
> I disagree, why wouldn't a flawless sensor help in RTS games ? Basically when someone beyond 180 aps, always can benefit from every extent of precision.


I agree with you. It doesn't matter what game someone wants to play, having a good sensor is always better than having a poor sensor.


----------



## Skylit

Sensor tracking dynamics can shift based on multiple variables.

There are situations where A9XXX will offer superior tracking precision (as well as IPS) in comparison to preferred A3XXX variant. Though as an enthusiast, you're likely to use a proper surface regardless.

Not much of a concern for the people here, but there are many that don't even use a mouse pad and expect crap to just "work". Maybe it's the brand/manufactures fault for not educating a consumer, but then again.. it might limit marketability in some cases.

Laser illumination only really gained popularity as it offered a larger coverage range (surface) as well as low fabrication and packaging cost for future devices. (ex: current A9xxx).


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Sensor tracking dynamics can shift based on multiple variables.
> 
> There are situations where A9XXX will offer superior tracking precision (as well as IPS) in comparison to preferred A3XXX variant. Though as an enthusiast, you're likely to use a proper surface regardless.
> .


That's one way to promote the sensor.

" Enjoy higher tracking speeds and precision compared to gaming optical sensors!*".

* when using your cat as a mouse pad.


----------



## Skylit

Meow ^_^

Optical sensor tech is just dated in general. Unfortunately, nothing else can compare price wise.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> " Enjoy higher tracking speeds and precision compared to gaming optical sensors!*".


Both are Optical sensors. " Laser" is just coined marketing terminology that stuck over the years.


----------



## ZareliMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> How do you define flawless?


Definition stolen from:
http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2024663


----------



## v4mp1

Quote:


> * when using your cat as a mouse pad


haha i will try this tomorrow, thank you for the intense laugh


----------



## bst

Hi, just a heads up to let everyone know I made a post on ESR with some news:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2400380/re-new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2400380


----------



## .:hybrid:.

Damn the velocity looks sexy, too bad I want the extra buttons.


----------



## Battou62

Thanks for the update.


----------



## jayfkay

why is the veolicity even smaller than the aurora?







(((


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> why is the veolicity even smaller than the aurora?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (((


Because that's the way I like it









Now after seeing theses pictures I'm getting really excited again, if they turn out to be as good as I think I'll buy both Aurora and Velocity (multiple times). Oh woe is me, why didn't I see the thread on ESR early enough back in the day to apply for beta testing


----------



## Nopileus

Because there is plenty of big mice with 3090 or similar sensors (G400, Deathadder, AM/FK, EC),
i believe he is merely trying to fill the gap in the market.

My Interest has actually shifted towards the Velocity now since sidebuttons on small mice can be quite annoying.
Can it be better than my Kinzuadder though, that is the question


----------



## jayfkay

I am really just looking forward to an imrpovement of my g400.. the g400S wont be any solution though...
I need less weight and better LOD, thats all. This evening my new ec1 will ship in, lets see how that works out for me. I guess it wont since I need my ring finger to rest next to my middle finger to feel comfortable.


----------



## glockateer

The 3050 feels kind of awkward to me sometimes and I'm not sure what the reason is. So, the 3090 for both mice is something I can fully agree with. Plus the 3050 was mainly 500 dpi and nothing else if you wanted tracking quality.


----------



## popups

Probably drops to 12bit. It performs it's best at 500 and below. Which means it's good for 500 CPI that's about it. I use 500 all the time so that is not a deal breaker for me. In GO I would use 1600.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> In GO I would use 1600 CPI.


Why?


----------



## popups

Because I can go below 1 sensitivity. Valve is implementing that for 1.6, but GO has that ability from it's creation. I would rather use 0.375 sensitivity over 1.2. I don't have to, just feel like it, won't be anything spectacular.


----------



## nsKb

So does Source, I have no idea why 1.6 doesn't allow sens below 1.


----------



## glockateer

That Wheel Mouse Aurora looks sick.


----------



## ezisatnaF

That WMO + Aurora combo looks like my perfect mouse. AURORA COME FASTER PLS


----------



## Thunderbringer

Looks cool!


----------



## Battou62

/cry


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Battou62*
> 
> /cry


----------



## Asclepius89

Damn, been hoping for this to come out in time to replace my G400 before it would sufffer from a potential disconnect/reconnect issue due to the cord and today, just after 1 year + 1 month, it started doing it







I hate this stiff wire.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Asclepius89*
> 
> Damn, been hoping for this to come out in time to replace my G400 before it would sufffer from a potential disconnect/reconnect issue due to the cord and today, just after 1 year + 1 month, it started doing it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I hate this stiff wire*.


Yep happened to me twice. Mice with a stiff cord are a no go for me these times around. That's why I love Zowie's cords, they feel like... well, they don't feel at all, feels like wireless mouse to me. Bst said he will use same sort of a cord.


----------



## Skylit

I felt Zowie's cords were a bit stiffer than a de-braided DA, basic Abyssus and Salmosa. Bout even with Braided DA, Roccat Kone pure, and Savu.


----------



## v4mp1

When do you release the pcb's bst? Im going to buy a minimum of 3 piece!









Do you release the pcb's with 3050 and 3090 or only 3090?


----------



## Yahar

May is upon us. Any updates? Release in May?


----------



## karod

Hm, the scroll wheel of my deathadder stops worrking sometimes, the left mouse button makes double cliks, no clicks at all or something in between.

I won't buy a Logitech G400 to bridge the time between my broken deathadder and the BST mouse.
I will buy a Logitech RX250 instead.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karod*
> 
> Hm, the scroll wheel of my deathadder stops worrking sometimes, the left mouse button makes double cliks, no clicks at all or something in between.
> 
> I won't buy a Logitech G400 to bridge the time between my broken deathadder and the BST mouse.
> I will buy a Logitech RX250 instead.


lol i just bought a sensei raw and like a xornet a couple months ago.
ill be getting this mouse WHENEVER it comes out.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> When do you release the pcb's bst? Im going to buy a minimum of 3 piece!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you release the pcb's with 3050 and 3090 or only 3090?


He finally decided to just do a 3090 only. At least that is what I read.


----------



## Scorpion667

Announcement date for BST's gaming mouse: 26 October 2011

Pulled an Eiseberg there brah


----------



## v4mp1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> He finally decided to just do a 3090 only. At least that is what I read.


I'm fine with the 3090 version.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> May is upon us. Any updates? Release in May?


yeah, may.. 2015


----------



## Bentz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karod*
> 
> Hm, the scroll wheel of my deathadder stops worrking sometimes, the left mouse button makes double cliks, no clicks at all or something in between.
> 
> I won't buy a Logitech G400 to bridge the time between my broken deathadder and the BST mouse.
> I will buy a Logitech RX250 instead.


Why an rx250 and not a g100s? It at least has a decent sensor.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bentz*
> 
> Why an rx250 and not a g100s? It at least has a decent sensor.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


I'm very happy with my g100s... The price is a bit stiff, but other than that it's a good mouse. Shape is just about perfect to my tastes. I wish the sensor/firmware was tweaked a bit differently though.


----------



## eXecuution

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> Announcement date for BST's gaming mouse: 26 October 2011
> 
> Pulled an Eiseberg there brah


LOL
Been waiting for that eisberg for so long


----------



## Deceit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXecuution*
> 
> LOL
> Been waiting for that eisberg for so long


H220

Can someone explain to me who bst is and what is so cool about him?


----------



## karod

I don't find a retailer selling the G100s or G100 in Germany.
On ebay there is one G100s that cost 47€ (almost double the price of the G400)
The seller is in the US.

And the G100 are only sold by south korean sellers.

with 16€ it is still 2,5x the price of the RX250 (I payed 6,63€ on ebay)


----------



## eXecuution

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deceit*
> 
> H220
> 
> Can someone explain to me who bst is and what is so cool about him?


H220 performance numbers look kinda meh. Then again so do eisbergs. Looks like i'm stuck with my H100 for now. Oh well.

BST essentially came to us and said he was designing a mouse that eschewed the conventional OMGULTRAHIGHDPICUSTOMIZABILITY that most gaming mice have today and rather had a good shape, great build quality, great sensor (no acceleration/prediction, low LOD) and a flexible cord. And everyone's fallen in love with it. Unfortunately, he hasn't delivered yet. Is it a scam? Probably not - people have gotten beta samples and love them, and iirc there's no way to preorder it so all one can do is wait for it to be released. If the reviews are positive when it's released, im replacing my deathadder with it.


----------



## popups

I haven't heard anyone say they love the beta samples. The 3050 isn't even in the picture now.

I would keep using the BE DeathAdder. Pretty much the best mouse for a lower sensitivity player. If I ever felt like using a higher sensitivity, I could use the Intellimouse Optical or Explorer 3.


----------



## Deceit

I'm still on my Deathadder 3.5 after three years. I also have a Logitech G500, however I dropped it and the sensor is ****ed. Prior to dropping it I did prefer it over my Deathadder, though. But I play Dota and no FPS so my opinion is probably not important.

I felt that minute movements were better with the G500 than the Deathadder.


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I haven't heard anyone say they love the beta samples. The 3050 isn't even in the picture now.
> 
> I would keep using the BE DeathAdder. Pretty much the best mouse for a lower sensitivity player. If I ever felt like using a higher sensitivity, I could use the Intellimouse Optical or Explorer 3.


The da is heavy as **** and that is no good for low sens. Also I'm pretty sure some people really like the betas but I won't speak for anyone.


----------



## Skylit

It really depends on your hand and how you grip a mouse. Your perception of whats perfect may be different than others.


----------



## popups

I find if the shape is good with a mouse the weight is less of an issue. Heavy mice do not feel that way when you have no trouble lifting it.

I don't like the top right corner on the DeathAdder, other than that, the mouse is pretty good with my lower sensitivity style. Which is about 33in for a 360.

What I like about BST's mouse is the ferrite on the cable, which most mice do not use anymore. I am not certain if it truly helps with static electricity, but if it does that will be great. The Zowie mice do not have that, their cables create a lot of static electricity on my mouse pad, that static causes issues. Since I use a low sensitivity static is easy and quick to build up. I have to discharge the electricity often to make sure the mouse doesn't lose it's mind.


----------



## karod

You could add them yourself.
Those are only a few € http://www.ebay.de/itm/Ferrit-Ringkern-fur-Kabel-bis-9mm-Entstordrossel-Ferritring-/281046798368?pt=Bauteile&hash=item416fb1d020
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-EMI-TDK-5mm-Clip-on-RFI-Filter-Snap-Around-Ferrite-/300894812248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460eba7858


----------



## blueslobster

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> The da is heavy as **** and that is no good for low sens.


I don't know about Palm Grip/FPS but I think for RTS played with Fingertip Grip less weight is strictly better.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blueslobster*
> 
> I don't know about Palm Grip/FPS but I think for RTS played with Fingertip Grip less weight is strictly better.


i tend to agree with this but i know of some SC/DotA players who use the death adder/G400's and like it. personally i think they are too big for RTS but by no means do i think they are bad mice. i'm probably going to a get G400 in the future.

I like my sensei raw and xornet for rts/fps. looking foward to the ninox mice and adding them to my already growing collection.

i was just playing some SC2 and Dota2 with my old G5 and i couldnt really grip it as comfortably as i remember (from when i first got it like...many many years ago). i'm primarily a claw gripper and i couldnt find a nice place to rest my ring finger on the G5. if i did it on top it was too close to my middle finger and awkward. when i tried to rest it on the side, the upper ridge on the right side of the mouse prevented my ring finger from resting comfortably below it. much better for palm grip.


----------



## Battou62

Well here we are in May with no new info on the release of this mouse.

ZZZZZZZZZ


----------



## aikYu

May 2013.
Just in case someone reads this in 2015.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Battou62*
> 
> Well here we are in May with no new info on the release of this mouse.
> 
> ZZZZZZZZZ


http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2416198
Everyone interested in this mouse should also follow the esr thread.


----------



## CorruptBE

Well it's taking to long for me, but if it lives up to the hype I will probably get one though (Hype, as in Deathadder/G400 like performance in an ambidexterous shape).


----------



## FoxWolf1

Despite the delays, I'm still thinking of getting one of these when they come out-- probably the Velocity version, now that it's using the 3090 sensor, since I like my mice to be very small and light if possible.

I might talk myself out of it, though. I'm a bit concerned about the buttons; I usually prefer to hold my mouse pretty far back, which is no problem currently, but both of these Ninox mice seem to have buttons that don't come back very far, so I'm not sure if I'd be able to hold them comfortably without it being impossible for me to click in any non-awkward way. I might have to see early reviews from people with grips similar to mine before I decide whether or not to purchase.


----------



## viowastaken

I was a bit disappointed to read about the DPI steps. 800 is decent, but i'd prefer that they had another step somewhere in that rather large 800-1600 DPI gap.

I use either 900 or 1000 ish, so I guess I could live with 800, but it still strikes me as odd to have that many steps with such a wierd spread.

The 3200 dpi step and the 4000 dpi step..?


----------



## Battou62

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2416198
> Everyone interested in this mouse should also follow the esr thread.


Thank you I had forgotten about that thread. Though I am unsure of why he didn't do an update on his mailing list.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> I was a bit disappointed to read about the DPI steps. 800 is decent, but i'd prefer that they had another step somewhere in that rather large 800-1600 DPI gap.
> 
> I use either 900 or 1000 ish, so I guess I could live with 800, but it still strikes me as odd to have that many steps with such a wierd spread.


I want 500, 600 dpi.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2416198
> Everyone interested in this mouse should also follow the esr thread.


You can't follow esr threads... there is no way to subscribe to them. You would literally have to go to the website every single day and check all the threads.

And I absolutely agree about the ridiculousness of those absurd DPI steps. To use something like 1800, 3k, 4k, etc. you would have to purposely lower the windows sensitivity bar *which is supposed to be left in the middle*. Give us some realistic dpi steps like 400/450 to 800 to 1000 to 1200.

I mean how many people would *legitimately need* to go over 1200dpi? People on massive monitors(30+ inch? 40+ inch?) or dual displays ONLY. The rest of them have no idea what they're doing and have been victims of marketing tactics.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You can't follow esr threads... there is no way to subscribe to them. You would literally have to go to the website every single day and check all the threads.
> 
> And I absolutely agree about the ridiculousness of those absurd DPI steps. To use something like 1800, 3k, 4k, etc. you would have to purposely lower the windows sensitivity bar *which is supposed to be left in the middle*. Give us some realistic dpi steps like 400/450 to 800 to 1000 to 1200.
> 
> I mean how many people would *legitimately need* to go over 1200dpi? People on massive monitors(30+ inch? 40+ inch?) or dual displays ONLY. The rest of them have no idea what they're doing and have been victims of marketing tactics.


True. Perhaps we should address that to BST? Because otherwise the Aurora is another 3090 mouse with the usual dpi steps. Not bad, but not that great either. As I said at ESR, the 50 dpi steps were actually the feature I was most looking for, but am not disappointed it is gone as I did not really see how this was possible at all. So no worlds were crushed for me there, just another dose of reality I am quite used to.

I guess some might use high dpi, over 2000, and lower their in-game sense because they think they gain more precise tracking. I don't know if that does it, all I know is to better use native steps to have unfiltered performance, which I guess is going to be the case with the Aurora now. From what I know (correct me if wrong), but 400dpi aren't even native for the A3090 and are interpolated from 800dpi, so using less than 800dpi for competitive gaming is probably not going to be advisable anyway.
My argument is, that many will not use the mouse strictly for competitive gaming and having more options is good, so I could use a comfortable dpi step for Windows (500-600) and the range between 400 and 800 for old or unoptimized games that don't give you proper mouse sensitivity, or have no in-game mouse settings at all (yes, I'm a GoG.com customer).
For games that have normal mouse settings I use a good native step anyway (800 or 1800), even though, as a non competitive gamer (my PvP times are long gone honestly, it's co-op and SP for me these days), I don't care all that much for utmost best performance and may just use my Windows mouse sense for gaming so I don't have to press a dpi button all the time, because as long as mouse performance feels good any dpi step is fine by me.

So I'd like to see dpi steps such as 400, 500, 600, 800, 1000 for usability and everything beyond that can be native for best performance.


----------



## test user

I gotta be honest. I don't get the big fuss with a big bunch of different DPI steps. Lots of DPI levels is cool ofc, but is that really a necessity? All decent newer games should allow you to reduce sensitivity enough so that even ~2000 DPI would be usable. Older games obviously might not be able to do that, but they also widely utilize wm_mousemove so you would be able to compensate by reducing Win sens (which is totally fine). So more DPI levels would just make things simpler in practice, without affecting the actual performance.

And the sensor works with only 2 different sensitivity levels naturally, right? Technically for very serious gaming it would be optimal to use the native levels so why go through a huge deal of trouble and work to make interpolated values work?


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *test user*
> 
> I gotta be honest. I don't get the big fuss with a big bunch of different DPI steps. Lots of DPI levels is cool ofc, but is that really a necessity? All decent newer games should allow you to reduce sensitivity


Sc2 is one of the most, if not the most popular esport game at the moment, unless of course you think that LoL is an esport.
Sc2 can't change ingame sensitivity without causing problems. You can only adjust the sens through DPI/screen resolution.


----------



## test user

^ That's pretty awful for a modern game, might I say :/

Oh well.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *test user*
> 
> ^ That's pretty awful for a modern game, might I say :/
> 
> Oh well.


You'd be surprised what abominations exist in life. You can't trust things, so you must trust your tools.


----------



## test user

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> You'd be surprised what abominations exist in life. You can't trust things, so you must trust your tools.


Sadface. I guess you are right. Myself, I was pretty damn annoyed when I purchased God Mode on Steam and the sens was more than double my usual even at 400dpi and minimum in-game sensitivity.


----------



## ADHDadditiv

Looks like a low-end Logitech mouse.... I will stick with Logitech.


----------



## meih

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ADHDadditiv*
> 
> Looks like a low-end Logitech mouse.... I will stick with Logitech.


IIRC it's a startup company by one guy, going with a custom mold with the very first product could've ended up being very expensive. He has talked about making new molds if Aurora/Velocity succeed. But at least we know it performs much better than a low-end one, despite its looks.


----------



## test user

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meih*
> 
> IIRC it's a startup company by one guy, going with a custom mold with the very first product could've ended up being very expensive. He has talked about making new molds if Aurora/Velocity succeed. But at least we know it performs much better than a low-end one, despite its looks.


But the aurora DOES look pretty ghastly, right? However, the internals are great and the shape is supposed to be rather unique, and that's all that matters.


----------



## resis

I guess Aurora uses some asian OEM shape, that is clearly built after the old Logitech G1, G3 shape. BST simply liked that shape and went for it. It's a great shape, but he also had the option to use shapes that come close to WMO, SteelSeries and Zowie shape, which is a damn shame he didn't went for, because not only these are better shapes in my opinion, but also look much better.

What I really don't like about that OEM though is the wheel being too far at the back, not good and I agree, it is a bit fugly. Otherwise it's a great mouse shape and will use thick quality skates and if the internals and software live up to the expectations, than we got some nice gear there. Doesn't sound much like low-end.

Let's wait and see.


----------



## popups

I am not sure if 400 is a native step with the latest SROM. Avago states ~400 default after loading SROM. I am not sure BST has asked and or got an answer from the factory about this. I did ask a while back if he could find out. If the 400 step is not native, they should at least halve the 800 step, so it won't be like the Zowies. If they do scale that step they should make it 450-500.

As far as we know the native steps dictated by Avago are: 800, 1600, 3200, 4000.

I could use 800 if I had to, but I rather use 600 CPI.

The BST mice are OEM shells. I think the Velocity shell is more pleasing to the eyes. They are both on the shorter side for me, about 10mm to short. The Aurora's scroll wheel does look very far back, that would be bad if it is, the mouse is already short.

If he offers something for the Intellimouse most of you will not care about the OEM shells. If he does commit to it I will be buying two Intelli mice promptly.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> As far as we know the native steps dictated by Avago are: 800, 1600, 3200, 4000.


400 are also native, but you can only load 4 different steps at a time, or something.

I dont have a PDF Reader installed atm. but i think its mentioned here.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> Sc2 is one of the most, if not the most popular esport game at the moment, unless of course you think that LoL is an esport.
> Sc2 can't change ingame sensitivity without causing problems. You can only adjust the sens through DPI/screen resolution.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142026&currentpage=11

Sounds like the problems you talk about have been fixed. I've been playing since around season 2 and I've never had that issue with sc2 changing my windows sensitivity. I use 6/11 windows, 58% ingame, 400dpi.

This poster says the "reduce mouse lag" checkbox eliminates all of the problems talked about in the thread anyways.

I just tested it and I don't see any effect on my mouse or on my fps when having that option checked or unchecked.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142026&currentpage=11
> 
> Sounds like the problems you talk about have been fixed. I've been playing since around season 2 and I've never had that issue with sc2 changing my windows sensitivity. I use 6/11 windows, 58% ingame, 400dpi.
> 
> This poster says the "reduce mouse lag" checkbox eliminates all of the problems talked about in the thread anyways.
> 
> I just tested it and I don't see any effect on my mouse or on my fps when having that option checked or unchecked.


That's not correct. I just tested it.

It's adding a pixel when you increase it above 55 or beneath 51. Just like before.

If you can't notice it by your self you can download this software and have definite proof:
http://www.gamefront.com/files/17191014/MarkC_Windows7_MouseFix.zip

In that package there is a software called mouse movement recorder, run that in the background while adjusting the sensitivity in Sc2 and you'll see that you drop pixels sub 51% and add them over 55%. Same as always.


----------



## blueslobster

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I use 6/11 windows, 58% ingame, 400dpi.


You have two different sensitivities, then. 6/11 in Windows equals a multiplication factor of 1.0. 58 % in SC 2 equals a multiplication factor of 1.25.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This poster says the "reduce mouse lag" checkbox eliminates all of the problems talked about in the thread anyways.
> 
> I just tested it and I don't see any effect on my mouse or on my fps when having that option checked or unchecked.


_Reduce Mouse Lag_ does not enable raw input. Instead it turns off pre-rendering. I advise to not check that box unless you feel your mouse cursor clearly is lagging behind. I briefly touch that topic in an article of mine about the optimal SC 2 mouse configuration.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> It's adding a pixel when you increase it above 55 or beneath 51. Just like before.


The sensitivity slider in SC 2 works just like the internal _hidden_ sensitivity values Windows has. Glymbol wrote a tool with which you can set all those 20 values in Windows. SC 2 also has 20 values:
&#8230;
 8/20 =  41 % = 0.75
 9/20 =  46 % = 0.875
10/20 =  51 % = 1.0
11/20 =  56 % = 1.25
12/20 =  61 % = 1.5
&#8230;
Further note that you have to avoid sensitivity values which are a multiple of five, because those values can result in two different sensitivities. In between those values it doesn't matter. 51 % is the same as 52 %, which is the same as 53 %, which is the same as 54 %.
This was originally found out bei hide.x from teamliquid.net. I recently started a thread on the eu.battle.net forum about this bug, but I haven't gotten any feedback from Blizzard, yet.

Back to the topic of this thread: Updates, please, bst!


----------



## Ice009

wow, this mouse still isn't out yet?


----------



## Nivity

Still waiting for this ;/

Tried 3 new mice the last 2 months. All **** for me.

Still have 0 mice that suits me. Using a Sensei Raw atm, only one that is ok shape and got sidebuttons. Have to live with sensor, liftoff and so on. So poop!.

Gimme the mice already!


----------



## detto87

Soon will be out I guess.

He awaits the final build and probably tests it a bit beforehand.
I would guess July it could happen.


----------



## popups

I doubt any release for general consumer before September. There is no beta samples available yet. Seems like a release will be closer to next year.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I doubt any release for general consumer before September. There is no beta samples available yet. Seems like a release will be closer to next year.


Bst's current estimate is 1st august.
http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2419136


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> Bst's current estimate is 1st august.
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2419136


Krap. Guess September, October is it really then.


----------



## discoprince

waiting to see if he ever gets around to posting those videos of the mice.

also it doesnt look like there will be a gloss version of either mouse (i plan on buying both)
make gloss black top/rubber sides (or grainy textured hard plastic) or vice versa pls bst.


----------



## popups

I am not surprised to hear near August for a release. I figure September considering the factories behavior.

I don't remember using a mouse with grainy plastic. It sound good, at least for the sides. I am not a fan of rubber coated mice, factories have done a bad job with it. I prefer glossy myself, but I am open to a grainy texture that isn't like that rubber coating.

It would be nice if he scaled the lower step to 450 or 500, because using taller feet will make the 400 step less than 400.


----------



## krokdylz

Getting delayed all the time, you should prepare for 2014


----------



## aikYu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *krokdylz*
> 
> Getting delayed all the time, you should prepare for 2014


You are too optimistic


----------



## r0ach

Better release this thing before avago fixes their laser acceleration rendering all opticals obsolete


----------



## nlmiller0015

I doubt it avago 9500 been having the accel problem for a while now the newer version fixed to issue on cloth the one in the (sensei raw and sensei ) but not the positive acceleration issue


----------



## Battou62

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/op-will-surely-deliver-lets-just-wait.jpg


----------



## Ukkooh

Again BST posted some news on esreality:

http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2422570
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> Can pre-order it really soon, I think today or tomorrow I will be getting a final sample which I can take photos of, and confirm it for the beta test. Also make a video of it which people have been waiting for. I wanted to have those things for the website/pre-orders, so everyone knows what they are ordering (and I don't have to keep re-doing things).
> 
> I don't think theres any need for more development on the mouse/sensor, as far as the performance/lod etc is concerned. I will probably work on a new firmware/sensor/mcu afterwards, if people wanted more features and options. But it makes sense to release it now, since it has the most important things people wanted.


----------



## test user

Confusing


----------



## Scorpion667

Chucking money at the screen
HURRY UP PLOX this mouse gave me blue balls


----------



## Axaion

Eh, dont get your hopes too high up, id still be surprised if we can buy it this year


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> Again BST posted some news on esreality:
> 
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2422570


I wonder what happened to that "today or tomorrow"... Zzzzzzz


----------



## FlashFir

Derp derp der derrrrrrrp (Trumpet sound)

It's not coming ;_;

I want to buy! Razer tron so bad!


----------



## v4mp1

bst?


----------



## Battou62

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Battou62*
> 
> Well here we are in May with no new info on the release of this mouse.
> 
> ZZZZZZZZZ


ZZZZZZZZZ


----------



## jayfkay

oh yeah there was something.. stopped caring


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Stop posting spam. He already said 1st of August give or take 15 days.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Stop posting spam. He already said 1st of August give or take 15 days.


" By satan »bst - Reply to #2158
Atm I think its going to be 1st August, give or take 15 days. "
The main word to look for there is "think", I wouldent bet anything on this year after all the delays and sudden lack of information ^^


----------



## Remmib

Why did he make them so god damned ugly?

Srsly take a page out of Zowie's book to learn how to make something simple with nice aesthetics as well.

These two mice look like cheap knockoff trash.


----------



## LarsMarkelson

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remmib*
> 
> Why did he make them so god damned ugly?
> 
> Srsly take a page out of Zowie's book to learn how to make something simple with nice aesthetics as well.
> 
> These two mice look like cheap knockoff trash.


They're the IBM Model-M of the mouse world.


----------



## Remmib

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LarsMarkelson*
> 
> They're the IBM Model-M of the mouse world.


I wonder if when he was designing them he asked himself, "Hey, do you think I could add any more pointless crevices on this thing for dirt to get into?"


----------



## meih

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remmib*
> 
> Why did he make them so god damned ugly?
> 
> Srsly take a page out of Zowie's book to learn how to make something simple with nice aesthetics as well.
> 
> These two mice look like cheap knockoff trash.


If you look at this in his point of view, it started as a one-man project (I guess it still kinda is) in ESR and probably didn't expect this to blow up this much. Obviously the ESR post has been re-written a few times, when he started it I doubt his intentions were to take down Razer/Logitech/whathaveyou







. He didn't do the design himself, it was a ready OEM mold he chose.

And he's talked about making a new mold if this one goes well:

http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2327600
http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2389867

edit: And this is what Zowie started with







:


----------



## Remmib

^Interesting.

Thanks.


----------



## LarsMarkelson

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meih*
> 
> If you look at this in his point of view, it started as a one-man project (I guess it still kinda is) in ESR and probably didn't expect this to blow up this much. Obviously the ESR post has been re-written a few times, when he started it I doubt his intentions were to take down Razer/Logitech/whathaveyou
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . He didn't do the design himself, it was a ready OEM mold he chose.
> 
> And he's talked about making a new mold if this one goes well:
> 
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2327600
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2389867
> 
> edit: And this is what Zowie started with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :


Wait a second. It's an OEM ready mold?! I'm really surprised, thought it'd have to be custom for all this excitement.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LarsMarkelson*
> 
> Wait a second. It's an OEM ready mold?! I'm really surprised, thought it'd have to be custom for all this excitement.


Well, no one else packed (currently) decent Hardware in an Pilot/MX300/whatev. shell with sidebuttons yet.


----------



## LarsMarkelson

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Well, no one else packed (currently) decent Hardware in an Pilot/MX300/whatev. shell with sidebuttons yet.


That's cool. So the first mouse to be released, the Aurora is MX300 shaped? After some research and finding out a lot of SC players use the MX300/G1, my excitement is back up for this.

Is the Velocity the same shape? I understand that it is cheaper and I guess simpler with drivers... but not exactly sure why he's releasing it too.


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remmib*
> 
> Why did he make them so god damned ugly?
> 
> Srsly take a page out of Zowie's book to learn how to make something simple with nice aesthetics as well.
> 
> These two mice look like cheap knockoff trash.


Some people (myself included) see aesthetics a complete waste of time and money, in this case BST had to use an OEM shell because of his limited funding. In general taking aesthetics into account is bad engineering.


----------



## Remmib

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> Some people (myself included) see aesthetics a complete waste of time and money, in this case BST had to use an OEM shell because of his limited funding. In general taking aesthetics into account is bad engineering.


I don't care that much about aesthetics, but I do care about something that doesn't have a crap ton of grooves in it for dirt to collect.

Mice already get dirty super easily, even if you are a clean freak like me. That's why I like mice with as few grooves on the shell as possible.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

BST's mouse is going to use the same sensor as the zowie mice right? I bought the zowie mice to test/compare and I'm trying to decide whether I should just keep the FK or return it and hope BST's mouse will be better... I bought the FK for $70 and BST's mouse is supposed to be under $50 right? So basically just the price, shape, and different DPI steps would be the only differences?


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remmib*
> 
> I don't care that much about aesthetics, but I do care about something that doesn't have a crap ton of grooves in it for dirt to collect.
> 
> Mice already get dirty super easily, even if you are a clean freak like me. That's why I like mice with as few grooves on the shell as possible.


Fair enough, I'm also not a fan of the grooves.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> BST's mouse is going to use the same sensor as the zowie mice right? I bought the zowie mice to test/compare and I'm trying to decide whether I should just keep the FK or return it and hope BST's mouse will be better... I bought the FK for $70 and BST's mouse is supposed to be under $50 right? So basically just the price, shape, and different DPI steps would be the only differences?


How do you just return it, don't you lose money like that?

Yes it uses the same sensor, but different implementation. So it will feel and perform differently. The SROM is a later version, which gives different steps. He doesn't use a custom lens either. Also different switches and scroll wheel.

I think the price will be around $50-60. $40 is really cheap if he wants to make profit to create new molds for his own shape.

The shape is way different and smaller.

It will be a massively different mouse to the AM, FK and EC.


----------



## jayfkay

can anyne link me the aurora pics again? where he compared them to an intelli (wmo is same size as intelli or?)?


----------



## popups

Aurora compared to the Diamondback.


Diamondback compared to the AM.


----------



## popups

_Why is it double posting like this!?_
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fengshaun*
> 
> How come so many people are anticipating this mouse? What is so special about it?


It is a mouse not made for 12 year olds that like flashy, high "DPI" mice. Also supposed to perform better than most options.


----------



## fengshaun

How come so many people are anticipating this mouse? What is so special about it?


----------



## janaso

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fengshaun*
> 
> How come so many people are anticipating this mouse? What is so special about it?


Because it's the kind of mouse gamers want, rather than the kind of mouse marketing people think they can sell to gamers. It's light. It has a neutral shape. It has good switches. It has a sensor which can offer more than just uselessly high CPI (DPI).


----------



## fengshaun

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *janaso*
> 
> Because it's the kind of mouse gamers want, rather than the kind of mouse marketing people think they can sell to gamers. It's light. It has a neutral shape. It has good switches. It has a sensor which can offer more than just uselessly high CPI (DPI).


Reading through the comments on the ESEA post, it seems it's going to be commercially available. But I can't find any information on the CPI levels or its adjustment steps. Any ideas? Also, is there any info on when it's going to be released?

found the info: DPI steps are going to be standard 400/800/1600 (+custom DPIs with driver), and release date is sometime before Christmas.

I was gonna buy a Zowie EC2 evo, but I feel like I should just wait for this!


----------



## sweetoxic

can i ask about mousepad here ?
i use SS RAW rubber, and want to buy the new mousepad ( hard )
i have 3 option : razer scarab, SS 4HD, and mionix ensis 320....
which one shoul i buy? or any option for hard surface ?

thx


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> How do you just return it, don't you lose money like that?
> 
> Yes it uses the same sensor, but different implementation. So it will feel and preform differently. The SROM is a later version, which gives different steps. He doesn't use a custom lens either. Also different switches and scroll wheel.
> 
> I think the price will be around $50-60. $40 is really cheap if he wants to make profit to create new molds for his own shape.
> 
> The shape is way different and smaller.
> 
> It will be a massively different mouse to the AM, FK and EC.


It's actually wider and taller than the FK. It's just a bit shorter. Yeah, I'll loose some money with shipping but I wanted to try out the mice.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sweetoxic*
> 
> can i ask about mousepad here ?
> i use SS RAW rubber, and want to buy the new mousepad ( hard )
> i have 3 option : razer scarab, SS 4HD, and mionix ensis 320....
> which one shoul i buy? or any option for hard surface ?
> 
> thx


Buy an $8 mousemat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePPLT2nGt9w&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd
But this isn't the right thread for asking about that.


----------



## sweetoxic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's actually wider and taller than the FK. It's just a bit shorter. Yeah, I'll loose some money with shipping but I wanted to try out the mice.
> Buy an $8 mousemat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePPLT2nGt9w&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd
> But this isn't the right thread for asking about that.


oke thx for the infomation....
sry for my mistake


----------



## Scorpion667

Curb your enthusiasm, this will not be released in 2013.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> Curb your enthusiasm, this will not be released in 2013.


Yeah, that's why I ended up buying the zowie mice to test them, but they have issues too so I'm back to waiting on the Aurora ._.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, that's why I ended up buying the zowie mice to test them, but they have issues too so I'm back to waiting on the Aurora ._.


There isn't really any issues with the AM when using the "2300" setting. The scroll wheel works and there isn't much over travel with the buttons. It performs higher than most mice that I have seen.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There isn't really any issues with the AM when using the "2300" setting. The scroll wheel works and there isn't much over travel with the buttons. It performs higher than most mice that I have seen.


Does it jitter at 2300 dpi?


----------



## Mavve

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Does it jitter at 2300 dpi?


No jitter @ 2300 dpi and best max tracking speed. 3090 sensor has native dpi 1800. U then get 2300 dpi from kingsis magnify lens. Correct me if im wrong kthx! Check kingsis homepage lens makes 800 dpi go 1050. That magnification would make 1050/800*1800=2362.5dpi close enough


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remmib*
> 
> Why did he make them so god damned ugly?
> 
> Srsly take a page out of Zowie's book to learn how to make something simple with nice aesthetics as well.
> 
> These two mice look like cheap knockoff trash.


At this point I really couldn't care less.

First man to release a comfortable ambidexterous mouse that does 4 to 4.5 m/s at 400 and 800 dpi or more (without accel or any other issues): Take my goddamn money!!

For all I care it's pink and covered with golden specks, I'll still get if it gets the job done


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Seriously... how can you even mention looks when there are 0 mice on the market with a flawless sensor, good shape, and without other defects.

All of the SS and razer mice either have problems with their sensors or the shapes are too small or problematic in some way or only have 3 buttons (abysus). The g400 is the best logitech mouse and it has a ****ty scroll wheel and can't be used for finger/claw grip for RTS games. Zowie's mice have issues as well. So there is no mouse that has even reached the basic requirements that gamers need. You might as well go to a cancer clinic and complain that the doctor's aren't wearing tailored clothes.


----------



## CorruptBE

Kind of subjective but I get what you mean. If BST gets this right, he is pretty much filling a gap in the market, the ambidextrous market.

It's a gap not a single competitor has filled. ROCCAT could've by releasing a LUA with a 3090, Logitech could've launched a more expensive G100s with the same sensor as the G400. But alas for some reason they always associate ambidextrous small mice with "cheap" and "lower tier".

Zowie nearly got it, just nearly, but they need to iron out some issues, get another 0.5 to 1.0 m/s out of that sensor, etc.


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Kind of subjective but I get what you mean. If BST gets this right, he is pretty much filling a gap in the market, the ambidextrous market.
> 
> It's a gap not a single competitor has filled. ROCCAT could've by releasing a LUA with a 3090, Logitech could've launched a more expensive G100s with the same sensor as the G400. But alas for some reason they always associate ambidextrous small mice with "cheap" and "lower tier".
> 
> Zowie nearly got it, just nearly, but they need to iron out some issues, get another 0.5 to 1.0 m/s out of that sensor, etc.


Lua is too small for a 3090 inside (would have to kick out the light in the back).


----------



## Remmib

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Seriously... how can you even mention looks when there are 0 mice on the market with a flawless sensor, good shape, and without other defects.
> 
> All of the SS and razer mice either have problems with their sensors or the shapes are too small or problematic in some way or only have 3 buttons (abysus). The g400 is the best logitech mouse and it has a ****ty scroll wheel and can't be used for finger/claw grip for RTS games. Zowie's mice have issues as well. So there is no mouse that has even reached the basic requirements that gamers need. You might as well go to a cancer clinic and complain that the doctor's aren't wearing tailored clothes.


My Zowie EC1 eVo has zero issues.

So...there goes the validity of your post.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remmib*
> 
> My Zowie EC1 eVo has zero issues.
> 
> So...there goes the validity of your post.


Some people consider the weird dpi steps issues. Depending on what games you play they can be a pain in the arse.


----------



## Susiria

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> Curb your enthusiasm, this will not be released in 2013.


well then... >_>


----------



## viowastaken

One funny thing to keep in mind is that this level of speed and communication is what we are dealing with in the pre release hype stage.

Imagine what the support will be like in the event of a defective product. Something tells me that will be zowie times 100 in the crapness-scale.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remmib*
> 
> My Zowie EC1 eVo has zero issues.
> 
> So...there goes the validity of your post.


The shape is bad. It's the exact same shape as the IE 3.0. Look in my comment for pictures and video of why that shape is problematic. The only reason I use the 3.0 is because of it's godlike sensor who's accuracy has yet to be equaled by a newer sensor. The only problem with it's sensor is the lowish malfunction speed for people who use extremely low sens.

The FK has technically zero issues as well for the percentage of people who's hand the mouse fits (many people including myself say the mice are too thin and small and cramp our hands) and who naturally hold the mouse far enough back that they don't notice a weight imbalance.

The EC1 also has the same issue as the g400 and the puretrak and roccat mice in that they are shaped for palm grip only. If you play both RTS and FPS games you will have to buy a different mouse for RTS and plug and unplug them each time. Maybe if the mice were light enough it wouldn't be that big of a deal to claw or finger grip them but I know that my 3.0 is terrible for RTS.


----------



## Remmib

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The shape is bad. It's the exact same shape as the IE 3.0. Look in my comment for pictures and video of why that shape is problematic. The only reason I use the 3.0 is because of it's godlike sensor who's accuracy has yet to be equaled by a newer sensor. The only problem with it's sensor is the lowish malfunction speed for people who use extremely low sens.
> 
> The FK has technically zero issues as well for the percentage of people who's hand the mouse fits (many people including myself say the mice are too thin and small and cramp our hands) and who naturally hold the mouse far enough back that they don't notice a weight imbalance.
> 
> The EC1 also has the same issue as the g400 and the puretrak and roccat mice in that they are shaped for palm grip only. If you play both RTS and FPS games you will have to buy a different mouse for RTS and plug and unplug them each time. Maybe if the mice were light enough it wouldn't be that big of a deal to claw or finger grip them but I know that my 3.0 is terrible for RTS.


"The shape is bad" ...Lol.

The shape is perfect for palm grip. I don't need to read anything you've made up for why the shape doesn't fit your hand.

I also don't care about RTS. Zowie makes FPS mice and that's what I use them for.


----------



## cadger

I can't be the only one playing DotA with a FK, right? This whole this switch is better for this type of game is getting blown out of proportion.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> I can't be the only one playing DotA with a FK, right? This whole this switch is better for this type of game is getting blown out of proportion.


Well when you get used to the switch it isn't that much of an issue. The switches in the EC and AM are stiffer than the FK. I got used to using the EC and AM switches after a few weeks. Going back to the Razer makes those switches (in the DeathAdder) feel even worse/mushy.


----------



## cadger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Well when you get used to the switch it isn't that much of an issue. The switches in the EC and AM are stiffer than the FK. I got used to using the EC and AM switches after a few weeks. Going back to the Razer makes those switches (in the DeathAdder) feel even worse/mushy.


I'm not debating whether you can feel the difference between different switches. I'm talking about people saying omron are for rts and huano are for fps, etc.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> I'm not debating whether you can feel the difference between different switches. I'm talking about people saying omron are for rts and huano are for fps, etc.


That is what I am saying. When you get used to them, you can use them for whatever it is you play, but it takes time for that to happen.


----------



## .:hybrid:.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The shape is bad. It's the exact same shape as the IE 3.0. Look in my comment for pictures and video of why that shape is problematic. The only reason I use the 3.0 is because of it's godlike sensor who's accuracy has yet to be equaled by a newer sensor. The only problem with it's sensor is the lowish malfunction speed for people who use extremely low sens.
> 
> The FK has technically zero issues as well for the percentage of people who's hand the mouse fits (many people including myself say the mice are too thin and small and cramp our hands) and who naturally hold the mouse far enough back that they don't notice a weight imbalance.
> 
> The EC1 also has the same issue as the g400 and the puretrak and roccat mice in that they are shaped for palm grip only. If you play both RTS and FPS games you will have to buy a different mouse for RTS and plug and unplug them each time. Maybe if the mice were light enough it wouldn't be that big of a deal to claw or finger grip them but I know that my 3.0 is terrible for RTS.


It takes a while for people's hands to adjust, but that doesn't make it a bad shape. When I first got mine I had massive hand/finger cramp, but now 2 months later I don't have any problems.

That being said, cramp is obviously offputing. If I had bought my mouse locally I would of returned it, but because it was online I cba to return it, but now I'm glad I kept it,


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The shape is bad. It's the exact same shape as the IE 3.0. Look in my comment for pictures and video of why that shape is problematic. The only reason I use the 3.0 is because of it's godlike sensor who's accuracy has yet to be equaled by a newer sensor. The only problem with it's sensor is the lowish malfunction speed for people who use extremely low sens.
> 
> The FK has technically zero issues as well for the percentage of people who's hand the mouse fits (many people including myself say the mice are too thin and small and cramp our hands) and who naturally hold the mouse far enough back that they don't notice a weight imbalance.
> 
> The EC1 also has the same issue as the g400 and the puretrak and roccat mice in that they are shaped for palm grip only. If you play both RTS and FPS games you will have to buy a different mouse for RTS and plug and unplug them each time. Maybe if the mice were light enough it wouldn't be that big of a deal to claw or finger grip them but I know that my 3.0 is terrible for RTS.


Its the best right handed palm grip mouse shape out there bar none really.

Looks to me that you wanted to use it in left hand however?, ofcourse its gonna be horrible when you hold it upside down or sideways man..

Try a IMO 1.1 instead, same sensor


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Its the best right handed palm grip mouse shape out there bar none really.


You're talking about the 3.0/EC shape right? I definitely have to disagree with you on that. The 518/g400 shape is much better if you're looking for a purely right handed, palm grip only mouse shape.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Looks to me that you wanted to use it in left hand however?, ofcourse its gonna be horrible when you hold it upside down or sideways man..


No... Watch the end of this. I explain the main two issues I have with the 3.0/EC shape. The right front is too low so there's no room for your ring finger, and because of the way the mouse slants on the back right there is nothing there gripping your palm. The 518/g400 shape has neither of these two problems.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Try a IMO 1.1 instead, same sensor


I had that mouse before. It didn't seem nearly as accurate as this 3.0, but that was a long time ago and I heard it might not have had the same sensor back then. Also, the coating was terrible and I couldn't grip it. So I would have to get the SS coated version if anything.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> You're talking about the 3.0/EC shape right? I definitely have to disagree with you on that. The 518/g400 shape is much better if you're looking for a purely right handed, palm grip only mouse shape..


Eh, the MX518 and g400 are too small imo, and the lip makes them horrible to hold if you use your ring finger to hold the side (as in index and middle finder on top, thumb, pinky and ring on the sides)
I used to use the mx series since the MX500 and after time i noticed how much i hated that god-afwul lip
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> No... Watch the end of this. I explain the main two issues I have with the 3.0/EC shape. The right front is too low so there's no room for your ring finger, and because of the way the mouse slants on the back right there is nothing there gripping your palm. The 518/g400 shape has neither of these two problems.


In that Vid you are clearly holding the mouse in your left hand?, Actually in that vid you hold all the mice in the left hand, which bring me to the point that youre holding a hand handed mouse in your left hand, and complain about its shape?, reminds me of those times where you put a shirt, or jacket on with the zipper or whatever on your back, and you go "WHO THE HELL DESIGNED THIS?!".. uh no, its not MEANT to be worn like that man. - In the same sense, the mouse is not meant to be held in the left hand.

Anyway, that plus that youre holding it in the left hand, and might have rather long fingers or just a large hand, does not help. (i palm/fingertip my IME 3.0)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> I had that mouse before. It didn't seem nearly as accurate as this 3.0, but that was a long time ago and I heard it might not have had the same sensor back then. Also, the coating was terrible and I couldn't grip it. So I would have to get the SS coated version if anything.


It has 100% the same switches and sensor, atleast if were talking about the IntelliMouse Optical 1.1a, just a different shape and coating.. but you dont strike me as one whos afraid of putting stickers on your mouse to get a better grip anyhow.

Did you ever try the deathadder left-handed edition?


----------



## Ukkooh

The whole different mouse/switch/sensor for different genres of games thing is ridiculous. There is always only one sensible choice, the one you are the most accurate with. That should never change between games or it means that you are never accurate. You guys have been bitten too much by marketing.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Eh, the MX518 and g400 are too small imo, and the lip makes them horrible to hold if you use your ring finger to hold the side (as in index and middle finder on top, thumb, pinky and ring on the sides)
> I used to use the mx series since the MX500 and after time i noticed how much i hated that god-afwul lip


You think those mice are smaller than the 3.0? I don't think so...
And I use ring finger on the side as you can see in the video. The lip on the g400 keeps you from clicking the right click with your ring finger. I like it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> In that Vid you are clearly holding the mouse in your left hand?, Actually in that vid you hold all the mice in the left hand


No I'm not. Look where my thumb is on the mouse... the video is mirrored.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Did you ever try the deathadder left-handed edition?


I'm not left handed, but I did try the deathadder. The shape is bad. The mouse is too short, it has the 3.0's same slant on the back right where your palm needs to grip the mouse. It also curves out at the right front where your ring finger goes so it jabs into my finger. I even put something over my finger to try and cushion it but it wasn't enough. The sensor is also not especially accurate - I wasn't able to find a good sensitivity. It's the same problem I had with the 518, which is why people who use the 518 are forced to use really low sensitivity because the mouse is not accurate enough at high sensitivities like the 3.0 is.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You think those mice are smaller than the 3.0? I don't think so...
> And I use ring finger on the side as you can see in the video. The lip on the g400 keeps you from clicking the right click with your ring finger. I like it.
> 
> No I'm not. Look where my thumb is on the mouse... the video is mirrored.
> I'm not left handed, but I did try the deathadder. The shape is bad. The mouse is too short, it has the 3.0's same slant on the back right where your palm needs to grip the mouse. It also curves out at the right front where your ring finger goes so it jabs into my finger. I even put something over my finger to try and cushion it but it wasn't enough. The sensor is also not especially accurate - I wasn't able to find a good sensitivity. It's the same problem I had with the 518, which is why people who use the 518 are forced to use really low sensitivity because the mouse is not accurate enough at high sensitivities like the 3.0 is.


Well, I always preferred the DA shape over mx518/G400. It's difficult to say why though. I think it's because of the DA being wider in the back and the missing lip.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> You think those mice are smaller than the 3.0? I don't think so...
> And I use ring finger on the side as you can see in the video. The lip on the g400 keeps you from clicking the right click with your ring finger. I like it.


By dimensions, the last i checked, they are smaller, also weight more which dosent help there
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> No I'm not. Look where my thumb is on the mouse... the video is mirrored.


Yeah ok, so you post a vid where the quality is questionable, in fast forward mode, mirrored, with a mouse where you put whatever on the sides, if you cant see which side of the mouse is which without really looking for it, it looks like you hold it in the left hand -.-
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> I'm not left handed, but I did try the deathadder. The shape is bad. The mouse is too short, it has the 3.0's same slant on the back right where your palm needs to grip the mouse. It also curves out at the right front where your ring finger goes so it jabs into my finger. I even put something over my finger to try and cushion it but it wasn't enough. The sensor is also not especially accurate - I wasn't able to find a good sensitivity. It's the same problem I had with the 518, which is why people who use the 518 are forced to use really low sensitivity because the mouse is not accurate enough at high sensitivities like the 3.0 is.


Then get the G400 instead, its sensor is more or less perfect, atleast at 400/800 DPI, and since you like the mouse.. its a no brainer, its cheap to boot!








Personally i never had any issues with the MX510/518 tracking quality cept for the angle snapping, which the G400 corrected.. i just dont like its shape

on your vids, no one wants to see a garbled mess thats sped up like that, mirrored. I might aswell just rub my eyes really hard till i see different colurs and taste the rainbow ^_-


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> By dimensions, the last i checked, they are smaller, also weight more which dosent help there
> Yeah ok, so you post a vid where the quality is questionable, in fast forward mode, mirrored, with a mouse where you put whatever on the sides, if you cant see which side of the mouse is which without really looking for it, it looks like you hold it in the left hand -.-
> Then get the G400 instead, its sensor is more or less perfect, atleast at 400/800 DPI, and since you like the mouse.. its a no brainer, its cheap to boot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally i never had any issues with the MX510/518 tracking quality cept for the angle snapping, which the G400 corrected.. i just dont like its shape
> 
> on your vids, no one wants to see a garbled mess thats sped up like that, mirrored. I might aswell just rub my eyes really hard till i see different colurs and taste the rainbow ^_-


The reason I sped up the videos is because it's annoying to sit there for 15 minutes and watch someone talk slow when I could read or take in the info (via sped up video) in 5 minutes. And I mirrored it when recording because I couldn't get the webcam to record from behind me.

G400 has mousewheel problem and the shape is no good for finger/claw grip for RTS. And it's pretty heavy.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The reason I sped up the videos is because it's annoying to sit there for 15 minutes and watch someone talk slow when I could read or take in the info (via sped up video) in 5 minutes. And I mirrored it when recording because I couldn't get the webcam to record from behind me.
> 
> G400 has mousewheel problem and the shape is no good for finger/claw grip for RTS. And it's pretty heavy.


Weird, ones i had, had a perfect mousewheel, not too stiff not too loose

why even add commentary then? - i mean i liked chip 'n dale when i was young.. but still


----------



## popups

BST, when are those samples for the Aurora going to be tested by users?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Weird, ones i had, had a perfect mousewheel, not too stiff not too loose


I haven't actually tested the mouse myself. I'm going purely off of Ramla's review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX8vlwQ8A-c


----------



## trhead

Can't wait. This mouse will be amazing. Its so light and smallish I bet many people will get extra +5% LG accuracy in Quake for free









Don't tell Evil about this mouse


----------



## Tazzzz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Can't wait. This mouse will be amazing. Its so light and smallish I bet many people will get extra +5% LG accuracy in Quake for free
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't tell Evil about this mouse


There is so much heat about this mouse that it would be kinda funny if it sucks actually )


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I haven't actually tested the mouse myself. I'm going purely off of Ramla's review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX8vlwQ8A-c


Mine didnt have that issue at all, was the best scroll ive ever tried, better than my IME 3.0, better than my old MX518


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> BST, when are those samples for the Aurora going to be tested by users?


Really soon, I hope to get them by the end of the week, then they'll be sent out. So hopefully next week you'll start seeing some tests!


----------



## iMik

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Really soon, I hope to get them by the end of the week, then they'll be sent out. So hopefully next week you'll start seeing some tests!


Great news.


----------



## jayfkay

would have liked to try one out :O


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skar*
> 
> Lua is too small for a 3090 inside (would have to kick out the light in the back).


OH NOES TEH LITE


----------



## jouzeroff

BST,
please DONT make the same low LOD than zowie AM pleeeease!
so that make it usable for QCK +/heavy mousepads ^_^
2,5mm is OK imo!
why do not use the same LOD thant WMO ? will it be customizable?

french trad:
je le dis en Français parce que j'ai cru comprendre que tu étais canadien, je me trompe pas?
j'ai testé la zowie AM et le LOD trop bas est inutilisable pour moi :-/
je l'ai déjà indiqué sur le thread zowie, mais moi j'ai tendance à soulever un tout petit peu les patins avant quand je fais des grands mouvements circulaire rapides (low sense). Du coup le capteur de la zowie se stop... je ne peux pas utiliser les souris comme ça...
Pourquoi pas reprendre le même LOD que les WMO ? Sinon est-ce qu'on aurait la possibilité de régler le LOD?

EDIT:
Bst, I can beta test if needed (I live in Paris).
Edit2: too far away from canada I gess ^_^


----------



## hfcobra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jouzeroff*
> 
> please DONT make the same low LOD than zowie AM pleeeease!
> so thtat make it usable for QCK +/heavy mousepads ^_^


I believe this mouse has just a slightly higher LOD than the AM/FK. Still low, just not literally as low as possible.


----------



## jouzeroff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hfcobra*
> 
> I believe this mouse has just a slightly higher LOD than the AM/FK. Still low, just not literally as low as possible.


I hope so


----------



## popups

_*Knock Knock*_

Any time line for your samples to be sent to you, BST? Are you going to wait for the software before you send out the final samples for testing? Or are you going to send out final samples and have the testers download the final version of the software later?


----------



## karbz

samples?!
final software?
stop dreaming.
hes an idiot (businessman/business running wise) and did not yet realize that people actually really like the feeling that somebody cares for his customers and products. i know that is hard to believe for you bst









he said august..after that he didnt even answer/write anything until end of june. then he came up on esr with some complete **** with absolutely no valid data. nothing that has just a bit of information in it.
just bla bla bla was busy, things didnt work out as i want, but now its so good everything so perfect bla bla, ye...like 100times before.

he said it will be released this year. use your own mind and think about it. not even in jan/feb 2014 if you ask me.

if you make a mouse FOR the community one should realize that the COMMUNITY is what he has to please all day long. otherwise some people(just like me and hundreds of other competitive gamers,that he trys to aim for, are going to buy something else because they are sick of waiting).

this project is a complete mess, better just forget about it asap.


----------



## jayfkay

what karbz said. I sticked to modding my g400 (that ******* grainy coating is just too slippery).


----------



## fengshaun

And you always have those who have nothing better to do than to spread FUD on an online forum with no clear purpose in mind than to discourage.


----------



## karbz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fengshaun*
> 
> And you always have those who have nothing better to do than to spread FUD on an online forum with no clear purpose in mind than to discourage.


actually i have a purpose with that message: to make people realize bst is an idiot business wise, and to make him change in that behaviour.
WHY?
Because its a let down to all the people waiting for month for the release date, just to be ****ed up by him with not even posting anything over months.
Thats not how you trade your future customers. Thats is no mouse FOR the community.
Thats just stupid and annoying.


----------



## fengshaun

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karbz*
> 
> actually i have a purpose with that message: to make people realize bst is an idiot business wise, and to make him change in that behaviour.
> WHY?
> Because its a let down to all the people waiting for month for the release date, just to be ****ed up by him with not even posting anything over months.
> Thats not how you trade your future customers. Thats is no mouse FOR the community.
> Thats just stupid and annoying.


Is he a businessman with a multimillion dollar company? Did he say, at any point in time, that anyone should wait for him to release in physical form his idea of a perfect mouse? Is he making money through making you wait? And most importantly, is he obligated to do anything?

I think not.

He simply proposed an idea and is trying to make it happen. That's all he's responsible for. Nobody has been "****ed up by him," nor has he been a "let down to all the people waiting for month" as he's never promised anything.

Your frustration resulting from impatience has no bearing on whatever BST decides to do. Even thinking that badmouthing can have any positive effects on the outcome is absurd.


----------



## dakU

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karbz*
> 
> actually i have a purpose with that message: to make people realize bst is an idiot business wise, and to make him change in that behaviour.
> WHY?
> Because its a let down to all the people waiting for month for the release date, just to be ****ed up by him with not even posting anything over months.
> Thats not how you trade your future customers. Thats is no mouse FOR the community.
> Thats just stupid and annoying.


Wow, you sound like the equivalent Walmart doucebag who thinks the customer is always right, and therefor deserves everything.

He does not work for you, nor owes you anything. If you don't want to wait long, buy something else and stop complaining.

BTW, no one makes millions by being an idiot.


----------



## karbz

wow you guys are really funny








he is running a business and he wants to make money out of it doesnt he?
yes. so hes a business man, and therefore he has to please customers BECAUSE he needs them. otherwise this project will ruin him, financially.
i dont even know why im explaining that because every clear thinking human being should be able to realize that or even understand it.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karbz*
> 
> wow you guys are really funny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he is running a business and he wants to make money out of it doesnt he?
> yes. so hes a business man, and therefore he has to please customers BECAUSE he needs them. otherwise this project will ruin him, financially.
> i dont even know why im explaining that because every clear thinking human being should be able to realize that or even understand it.


The buyers will be there even if it takes long.
There wont be any followup customers if he delivers a ****ty mouse however.

Thats something every clear thinking human being should be able to understand.

Me personally I don't care how long it takes, I will buy one in 1,2 years because the market is still lacking a similar product.

If an equal product comes out then yes I might stop looking, but there is non.

You don't please customers by releasing bad products, something every single company in the world knows.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karbz*
> 
> wow you guys are really funny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he is running a business and he wants to make money out of it doesnt he?
> yes. so hes a business man, and therefore he has to please customers BECAUSE he needs them. otherwise this project will ruin him, financially.
> i dont even know why im explaining that because every clear thinking human being should be able to realize that or even understand it.


There is no business yet and no customers. There is just words and interest for a potential product. He didn't promise anything, we didn't pay for any services.

As Nivity said, if he can't deliver a finalized product yet, but does, he will run his upstarting business into the ground and hardly anyone will trust it a second time. The first step is crucial, even if it takes too long for it to be taken.

Can't say it's a good thing how long it takes, but if he could, he would have released it already, so I take it that it's not possible yet. Nothing you can do about it.


----------



## karbz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> The buyers will be there even if it takes long.
> There wont be any followup customers if he delivers a ****ty mouse however.
> 
> Thats something every clear thinking human being should be able to understand.
> 
> Me personally I don't care how long it takes, I will buy one in 1,2 years because the market is still lacking a similar product.
> 
> *If an equal product comes out then yes I might stop looking, but there is non.*
> 
> You don't please customers by releasing bad products, something every single company in the world knows.


And that is exactly what i mean. Zowie mice are made of the cheapest **** of internals though good shell quality , SS is lacking any decent sensor, and Razer products are low quality made and with synapse Razer is killing it atm....
BUT it is easily possible to fix that, Razer for example can just change synapse, its just software nothing really hard to do. If SS mice like the Kinzu v2/Kana or Xai had perfect sensors..would we even talk in here? I dont think so. If steelseries brings out one or two good mice with the same good shape this is over. And thats a big big risk for bst.
I still cant believe that i have to argue with people like you, about things like this. No one said he has to release it earlier than he can, but with the attitude he shows, i can guess why it takes so long. He is not constantly giving information not even active on any forum..not even the site is up yet...

well..watevr end of convo for me. use your brain/mind. simpe.


----------



## NuFon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karbz*
> 
> well..watevr end of convo for me. use your brain/mind. simpe.


That was maybe the worst way to end your "discussion", it's like saying "Up yours, I dont have time for this"


----------



## Skylit

It's just a mouse. It isn't going to really change or make you a better player, but it's an option for those seeking a specific criteria such as shape.

Karbz, viewpoints are a bit skewed. I know i've commented on some of these things, but there's a larger picture.


----------



## krokdylz

It depends which mouse







I sure as hell couldn't do everything with a kinzu v1 for example


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> It's just a mouse. It isn't going to really change or make you a better player, but it's an option for those seeking a specific criteria such as shape.


That's not true at all... the mouse is *the* most important device for a gamer. That is such a ridiculous thing to say... what the hell.


----------



## jayfkay

yes ofc but mice with similar traits like this one are already available and muscle memory and repetition is more important. thats why accel and that **** doesnt matter either. you will still land every shot with it on if you just trained it enough.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That's not true at all... the mouse is *the* most important device for a gamer. That is such a ridiculous thing to say... what the hell.


Not so ridiculous. There are plenty of variables the typical hardcore gamer isn't going to grasp. Just those that are regurgitated among circles. Hence the hype you or anyone else gives.

With that, there have been a slew of devices released over the past couple years. Many of them quite capable of pleasing hardcore gamers. For those seeking a specific shape and specs, BST's mouse may be a viable option.

I say it's "just a mouse" because there's always something else on the horizon and you're rather foolish if you think everyone will take to one particular design.


----------



## illwill

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> It's just a mouse. It isn't going to really change or make you a better player, but it's an option for those seeking a specific criteria such as shape.
> 
> Karbz, viewpoints are a bit skewed. I know i've commented on some of these things, but there's a larger picture.


i think there is a middle ground between this viewpoint and those that say a mouse does make you a better player.
imo you need to have a decent mouse to be at your full potential.
i have said before on these forums that it's strictly about what you're used to, but at the same time i think a really crappy mouse (like wireless) would make even pros suffer.
with that said all you need is a mouse that's decent with a shape that suits you. i don't think stuff like improved perfect control or higher max speed will make you better as long as your mouse is decent to begin with.
personally i would just use a microsoft wmo if it had 800dpi because i need that amount for my resolution. but unfortunately it doesn't.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Not so ridiculous. There are plenty of variables the typical hardcore gamer isn't going to grasp. Just those that are regurgitated among circles. Hence the hype you or anyone else gives.
> 
> With that, there have been a slew of devices released over the past couple years. Many of them quite capable of pleasing hardcore gamers. For those seeking a specific shape and specs, BST's mouse may be a viable option.
> 
> I say it's "just a mouse" because there's always something else on the horizon and you're rather foolish if you think everyone will take to one particular design.


Ok, I don't even know what you're trying to say now... you go off on so many different tangents without expounding.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> yes ofc but mice with similar traits like this one are already available and muscle memory and repetition is more important. thats why accel and that **** doesnt matter either. you will still land every shot with it on if you just trained it enough.


wow... you are definitely not a high level competitive FPS player.

But to the both of you, mice are EXTREMELY important. This is coming from someone who just finished arguing with angry gaming peripheral makers in the Zowie FK thread about how all their gaming mouse pads are hugely over priced and no better or more useful than an $8 generic mouse pad that's just as big. And mechanical "gaming" keyboards are bad for FPS gamers. But when it comes to mice it's a completely different ball game. Competitive gamers need a mouse that fits their hand and grip properly, as well as a mouse that's not going to malfunction at their desired speed, does not have inconsistencies like acceleration or other sensor problems, and is ACCURATE like the IE 3.0. There is a massive difference in accuracy with the IE 3.0 sensor compared to all other mice and gaming mice. The Razer copperhead is the only other mouse I know of that comes close to the well known precision of the IE 3.0's sensor.

I don't know what games you two play, or what level you play your games at, but you are clearly not high level CS 1.6 players.


----------



## nlmiller0015

i dont even......


----------



## PUKED

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ok, I don't even know what you're trying to say now... you go off on so many different tangents without expounding.


*goes off on 10 insane tangents*

Kohler I hope supermat pays you your dividends before you start flinging them at passing cars on the freeway.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PUKED*
> 
> *goes off on 10 insane tangents*
> 
> Kohler I hope supermat pays you your dividends before you start flinging them at passing cars on the freeway.


Do you say that to every person who recommends a particular product on these forums?

Any decent person would do the same as I am if they were to spend 8 years buying and trying tons of different hyped gaming products that turned out to be no more than overpriced, wastes of money. I want to save other people from having to deal with that. There is a flooded mouse pad market. Basically every computer component manufacturer has released a mouse pad, and they can't be tested unless you buy a bunch of them and lose lots of money in shipping and return shipping costs. So it's a massive pain in the ass trying to figure out the differences in all the various mouse pads, only to find out in the end that the differences between them are nowhere near as significant as in mice. As well as the fact that I could have just bought an $8 mouse pad at my local store that is just as big, & good if not better & larger.


----------



## nlmiller0015

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PUKED*
> 
> *goes off on 10 insane tangents*
> 
> Kohler I hope supermat pays you your dividends before you start flinging them at passing cars on the freeway.


what is supermat what is supermat?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *illwill*
> 
> i think there is a middle ground between this viewpoint and those that say a mouse does make you a better player.
> imo you need to have a decent mouse to be at your full potential.
> i have said before on these forums that it's strictly about what you're used to, but at the same time i think a really crappy mouse (like wireless) would make even pros suffer.
> with that said all you need a is a mouse that's decent with a shape that suits you. i don't think stuff like improved perfect control or higher max speed will make you better as long as your mouse is decent to begin with.
> personally i would just use a microsoft wmo if it had 800dpi because i need that amount for my resolution. but unfortunately it doesn't.


That's true, but I'm talking bout the people who are looking for their or a collective definition of perfection. I mean it's fine to have a hobby, but seeking "the one" might be unnecessary in the long run. Coming from products that compete and what not.

Since this is BST's thread, there are many that will likely enjoy his mouse and I'm not disputing that. If I came off the wrong way, sorry.

~~~~

Anyway, there are many shapes that fit a specific user. What might be horrible for you or me, can work for others. I specifically don't care for Zowie AM/ Mx310 , but there are many that adore it.

In terms of pads, I personally see value in aesthetic as well as glide/comfort of certain designs, but there might be people that only need the bare minimum of a large pad.

Reflecting on MaximilianKohler. His opinion> outweights all and I don't really agree with that. Just like you shouldn't take mine unless its objective knowledge.

I honestly hate getting PM'd asking for mouse recommendations. I can't ANSWER certain things as most of the time it is subjective.


----------



## Jalal

Skylit, sorry I would like to rephrase the way you explained it as this is how I initially understood it.

So as I understood it was meant purely in the context of this thread, i didn't take it literally that a mouse wouldn't make you a better player. When I've read it I thought to myself: "such a prefect example of understanding things in context." It's clear that mice can hold you back severely, so that even games become unbearable and that tracking consistency does matter. Skylit was saying that there are so many mice out already which are at least completely fine for the individual, come near to their needs so that BSTs mice wouldn't make these people (significantly) better. That's it. But I think he doesn't exclude that there might be people who are really (desperately) in need of that Pilot Optical shape with a higher perfect control speed. However i think that i need it.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jalal*
> 
> Skylit, sorry I would like to rephrase the way you explained it as this is how I initially understood it.
> 
> So as I understood it was meant purely in the context of this thread, i didn't take it literally that a mouse wouldn't make you a better player. When I've read it I thought to myself: "such a prefect example of understanding things in context." It's clear that mice can hold you back severely, so that even games become unbearable and that tracking consistency does matter. *Skylit was saying that there are so many mice out already which are at least completely fine for the individual, come near to their needs so that BSTs mice wouldn't make these people (significantly) better. That's it. But I think he doesn't exclude that there might be people who are really (desperately) in need of that Pilot Optical shape with a higher perfect control speed. However i think that i need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Yes. That's what I meant. Sorry, I'm quite tired.


----------



## popups

Woops~! I didn't know my one little post would start this... I just want a 3090 for my Intellimouse. Not really worried about the Aurora PCB.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Woops~! I didn't know my one little post would start this... I just want a 3090 for my Intellimouse. Not really worried about the Aurora PCB.


http://watchmonoblog.blog71.fc2.com/blog-entry-3224.html


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> http://watchmonoblog.blog71.fc2.com/blog-entry-3224.html


lol, one guy doing what multi million(and billion) companies wont/cant
Makes one wonder if they gimp mice on purpose so we have to rebuy them all the time.. well thats a given i guess :]


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ok, I don't even know what you're trying to say now... you go off on so many different tangents without expounding.
> wow... you are definitely not a high level competitive FPS player.
> 
> But to the both of you, mice are EXTREMELY important. This is coming from someone who just finished arguing with angry gaming peripheral makers in the Zowie FK thread about how all their gaming mouse pads are hugely over priced and no better or more useful than an $8 generic mouse pad that's just as big. And mechanical "gaming" keyboards are bad for FPS gamers. But when it comes to mice it's a completely different ball game. Competitive gamers need a mouse that fits their hand and grip properly, as well as a mouse that's not going to malfunction at their desired speed, does not have inconsistencies like acceleration or other sensor problems, and is ACCURATE like the IE 3.0. There is a massive difference in accuracy with the IE 3.0 sensor compared to all other mice and gaming mice. The Razer copperhead is the only other mouse I know of that comes close to the well known precision of the IE 3.0's sensor.
> 
> I don't know what games you two play, or what level you play your games at, but you are clearly not high level CS 1.6 players.


Your way of valueing your own subjective criteria as a dictum for everybody sent you on my blocking list. Especially your "you are not a high level CS 1.6 player" comment is probably the most annoying thing in discussions like these. Also I don't remember seeing you on any of the big CS teams...

You made some valid points in previous discussions, but you should work on your high-horse attitude... a lot.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> http://watchmonoblog.blog71.fc2.com/blog-entry-3224.html


What did he use for the scroll wheel? The plastic part...


----------



## Skylit

Different mechanical encoder. Didn't use the DA's.

Looks as if two wheels (both intelli and donor) are cut and hot glue'd into place.

You can notice that you have to route wires to the encoder itself. The standard Optical layout isn't compatibile.

Estimate it weighs up to 10g more than a regular IO1.1. Ballpark of 90~96g.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Not so ridiculous. There are plenty of variables the typical hardcore gamer isn't going to grasp. Just those that are regurgitated among circles. Hence the hype you or anyone else gives.
> 
> With that, there have been a slew of devices released over the past couple years. Many of them quite capable of pleasing hardcore gamers. For those seeking a specific shape and specs, BST's mouse may be a viable option.
> 
> I say it's "just a mouse" because there's always something else on the horizon and you're rather foolish if you think everyone will take to one particular design.


He's filling a void in the market though if it ever gets released. (as would Zowie have done if their mice performed a wee bit better)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Different mechanical encoder. Didn't use the DA's.
> 
> Looks as if two wheels (both intelli and donor) are cut and hot glue'd into place.
> 
> You can notice that you have to route wires to the encoder itself. The standard Optical layout isn't compatibile.
> 
> Estimate it weighs up to 10g more than a regular IO1.1. Ballpark of 90~96g.


So he cut the plastic part off the DeathAdder wheel? Are you sure the optical cannot be used? Sure it wasn't because he didn't like the Intellimouse scroll wheel?


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> So he cut the plastic part off the DeathAdder wheel? Are you sure the optical cannot be used? Sure it wasn't because he didn't like the Intellimouse scroll wheel?


Nope. Likely a donor unit from a separate mouse.

Quite positive. Default points won't function. Who actually likes the Intellimouse Optical wheel?


----------



## popups

Just saying maybe you wouldn't need to mess with the scroll wheel... I was going to do this with my BE, but BST said he has ideas... Still waiting to hear about the plan.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> He's filling a void in the market though if it ever gets released. (as would Zowie have done if their mice performed a wee bit better)


I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that there will always be something better. At least subjectively in terms of general shape, cursor feel, personal preferences etc..

I'm also reflecting that not everyone has the same exact needs and while say for instance Zowie mice could receive a speed boost, there are those that adore the super low lift or those that don't need to hit sensor limitations of tracking speed. Whether I agree or disagree is quite irrelevant







Same goes for their optical encoder which I loathe.

I personally like playing with innovational design and features. I'm biased as I see value in the latest and greatest hardware while most could really care less? At least as long as it performs up to someones standards.

Again, there will be those that will like BST's mouse. I'm not disagreeing with that, just making a point that you can't really expect everyone to accept one mouse to end them all.

I understand this isn't the case for many, but there's a portion that will eventually move forward. It's inevitable.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Just saying maybe you wouldn't need to mess with the scroll wheel... I was going to do this with my BE, but BST said he has ideas... Still waiting to hear about the plan.


It's been tried, many times. From what I recall, Optical > Mechanical wiring does not work.

Just not 100% positive.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that there will always be something better. At least subjectively in terms of general shape, cursor feel, personal preferences etc..
> 
> I'm also reflecting that not everyone has the same exact needs and while say for instance Zowie mice could receive a speed boost, there are those that adore the super low lift or those that don't need to hit sensor limitations of tracking speed. Whether I agree or disagree is quite irrelevant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same goes for their optical encoder which I loathe.
> 
> I personally like playing with innovational design and features. I'm biased as I see value in the latest and greatest hardware while most could really care less? At least as long as it performs up to someones standards.
> 
> Again, there will be those that will like BST's mouse. I'm not disagreeing with that, just making a point that you can't really expect everyone to accept one mouse to end them all.
> 
> I understand this isn't the case for many, but there's a portion that will eventually move forward. It's inevitable.
> It's been tried, many times. From what I recall, Optical > Mechanical wiring does not work.
> 
> Just not 100% positive.


Isn't it widely agreed that the switches on the AM are simply bad? Not that i'm saying that's fact, but if we assume that's true then there is literally no basic, low-weight, ambidextrous (not counting the g400, the shape is different, and it's either love/hate) mouse that has a sensor with low LOD, no accel/prediction (least prediction), no tracking issues, and a good enough malfunction speed along with proper mouse switches (nevermind the shape). If that's true, then the most common needs of a gamer that uses an ambidextrous mouse literally can not be met by any mouse on the market. The only thing right now that partially satisfies this is the WMO (low malfunction speed) and MAYBE the Kana (minor issues). Doesn't that make bst's mouse quite an important thing?

Do let me know if theres a mouse like that though.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> It's just a mouse. It isn't going to really change or make you a better player,


It will for me since I currently claw grip a g400 to play RTS games and my fingers press down on the buttons with the finger tips basically BEHIND the scroll wheel.....

I don't even know of a better option for 800dpi/1000hz except maybe Savu. Haven't bought one because I'm hesitant the shape would work better for me than what I already have.


----------



## Berserker1

even though click are separate from shell and mouse uses omrons beta testers of bst mouse said that it has hard switches, only ones that are harder are zowie AM
it doesnt seem so suitable for RTS games where you need to click very fast
hope its fixed before the final release.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Your way of valueing your own subjective criteria as a dictum for everybody sent you on my blocking list. Especially your "you are not a high level CS 1.6 player" comment is probably the most annoying thing in discussions like these.


That seems pretty silly. Of course there are subjective things about mice, like shape, etc.. But the comment of mine that you quoted was talking about other non-subjective qualities that have to do with performance and quality of the mice.

I think my comment towards people saying "mice are not important for gaming" was completely appropriate as that is such an asinine comment. However, another poster pointed out that he simply misworded his comment and was just trying to say that the difference between BST's mouse and other mice already available would not be that significant to a person's skill level. I can mostly agree with that.

That remark of mine also extends from similar things like on the SC2 forums low level players who have no clue about the meta game complain constantly that certain things are OP when in fact they are not. It's similar when you have either low level FPS players or even non competitive FPS players saying ridiculous things about what they think is and isn't necessary in high level play.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That seems pretty silly. Of course there are subjective things about mice, like shape, etc.. But the comment of mine that you quoted was talking about other non-subjective qualities that have to do with performance and quality of the mice.
> 
> I think my comment towards people saying "mice are not important for gaming" was completely appropriate as that is such an asinine comment. *However, another poster pointed out that he simply misworded his comment and was just trying to say that the difference between BST's mouse and other mice already available would not be that significant to a person's skill level. I can mostly agree with that.*
> 
> That remark of mine also extends from similar things like on the SC2 forums low level players who have no clue about the meta game complain constantly that certain things are OP when in fact they are not. It's similar when you have either low level FPS players or even non competitive FPS players saying ridiculous things about what they think is and isn't necessary in high level play.


Well, then that was the main misunderstanding. Of course mice are important to FPS gaming, otherwise I wouldn't have spent so much money on different types.

But I hope you agree that you don't need to play top level competition in one certain game to be the "know-it-all" of mice. I see where you're coming from with the SC2 reference and I have experienced the same in the games I played.

Concerning the validity of ones input to the topic: There are many different objective performance values that are important, but everyone rates their importance differently. Some people need the feel/accuracy of the IE/WMO cursor more than they need high max tracking rates. Others value high tracking speeds over cursor precision/no jitter and so on and so on. That's why there are many good alternatives for those different needs. Of course some people just recommend random mice because they like their optics or something without knowing the least bit about mouse performance, at that point I know what you mean and have seen some cringe-worthy things myself.


----------



## ronal

Anyone know when this mouse is being released?


----------



## andrew grp

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Anyone know when this mouse is being released?






Well, if you read BST's posts; "I should have some samples at the end of the month which will be sent out to some gamers/reviewers, so you can see it from a more independent perspective







"
"I thought its never going to happen, or it wasn't going to be as good as I hoped. Hard to explain really, but it doesn't matter much anymore, because... dun dun dun... its finished!"
"I *doubt* it will be the 1st of August, because as usual the software changes took way longer than I wanted, even with talking to the factory about it every day. But it shouldn't be too far off. "
Source:http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2439775

I feel like I have read those posts before...0,O
Anyway, estimated release date September 2039... I'm jking ofc... or not? *Sigh*


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Anyone know when this mouse is being released?


I don't think it is going to be released. Considering all the statements and the outcome after.

Someone could have contracted a factory to do a PCB with a 3050 or 3090 for the Wheel Mouse/Intellimouse already.


----------



## resis

"Soon" AKA "When it's done".


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> "Soon" AKA "When it's done".


CS ProMod is going to be so awesome.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> Isn't it widely agreed that the switches on the AM are simply bad? Not that i'm saying that's fact, but if we assume that's true then there is literally no basic, low-weight, ambidextrous (not counting the g400, the shape is different, and it's either love/hate) mouse that has a sensor with low LOD, no accel/prediction (least prediction), no tracking issues, and a good enough malfunction speed along with proper mouse switches (nevermind the shape). If that's true, then the most common needs of a gamer that uses an ambidextrous mouse literally can not be met by any mouse on the market. The only thing right now that partially satisfies this is the WMO (low malfunction speed) and MAYBE the Kana (minor issues). Doesn't that make bst's mouse quite an important thing?
> 
> Do let me know if theres a mouse like that though.


There are those that seem to like the sub mini used on Zowie mice. Shared, but feel differs by mold design. AM being stiffer as positioned up near top. IO1.1 is similar on the Omron side.

If you're in need for side buttons, then no. a full-size lightweight ambidextrous model is quite rare, but they do exist (CM recon, Zowie FK *meybe too small for some, G100s etc....) Again, I'm not disagreeing that people will find this mouse useful, but some could technical venture into other designs. You're describing a really niche need and this is only realized once you get a grasp of the market from multiple perpectives.

It's not that certain main companies can't venture into this, but it isn't something that makes substantial profit leaving an opening as corrupt mentioned. Look at the Abysuss. Razer doesn't seem to care about improving it, nor is it equipped with anything notable. If it wasn't for the asian market, this mouse would have been gone a while back.

Bout switch perpective, ignoring subjective of bad or good, it's a game of pricing. I hate recommending stuff.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> CS ProMod is going to be so awesome.


Gotfrag 2006 #nevaforget


----------



## nlmiller0015

skylit which tracks better at higher dpi optical or laser mice?


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> There are those that seem to like the sub mini used on Zowie mice. Shared, but feel differs by mold design. AM being stiffer as positioned up near top. IO1.1 is similar on the Omron side.
> 
> If you're in need for side buttons, then no. a full-size lightweight ambidextrous model is quite rare, but they do exist (CM recon, Zowie FK *meybe too small for some, G100s etc....) Again, I'm not disagreeing that people will find this mouse useful, but some could technical venture into other designs. You're describing a really niche need and this is only realized once you get a grasp of the market from multiple perpectives.
> 
> It's not that certain main companies can't venture into this, but it isn't something that makes substantial profit leaving an opening as corrupt mentioned. Look at the Abysuss. Razer doesn't seem to care about improving it, nor is it equipped with anything notable. If it wasn't for the asian market, this mouse would have been gone a while back.
> 
> Bout switch perpective, ignoring subjective of bad or good, it's a game of pricing. I hate recommending stuff.
> Gotfrag 2006 #nevaforget


Do the recon (with its really weird shape) and the g100s satisfy all those sensor requirements? Correct me if i'm wrong but the FK is known to have similar switch issues (IAssuming most people who've used WMO or similar switches would agree that hard switches are indeed an issue) that the AM does.

The thing is, I think a sensor that does everything the Aurora is said to is something that 90% of gamers want/need. Having low/no prediction, no accel, high malfunction speed, and lowish LOD without bugs is almost universally better. I know of a couple of mice that satisfy this but they all fail to have a "normal" ambidextrous shape that me, and many other people prefer. Even people who love prediction will tell you its because they got used to it. Its not that people don't get great without a mouse that does of all of this, but I do think it can have a notable effect to make it well worth buying for even a seasoned pro. Not disagreeing with you though per-say, just my two cents.


----------



## popups

@petejones7

I have been fine with the Intellimouse, DeathAdder and Zowie mice through all the years of playing CS. I never felt like I MUST have the mouse BST said will exist. The FK will likely be my default mouse even if I get this yet to be available mouse. I will modify the lens, then I will be done with trying to get a better mouse, unless BST releases a drop in PCB for the Intellimouse Optical.

The only thing I can see coming out in the "near" future will be from CM Storm.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> @petejones7
> 
> I have been fine with the Intellimouse, DeathAdder and Zowie mice through all the years of playing CS. I never felt like I MUST have the mouse BST said will exist. The FK will likely be my default mouse even if I get this yet to be available mouse. I will modify the lens, then I will be done with trying to get a better mouse, unless BST releases a drop in PCB for the Intellimouse Optical.
> 
> The only thing I can see coming out in the "near" future will be from CM Storm.


Those are perfectly good mice, but if you read my last post you'd know i'm talking about ambidextrous mice. Something similar to the WMO or MX300.


----------



## popups

Intellimouse Optical, AM, FK...


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Intellimouse Optical, AM, FK...


The intellimouse Optical is great (I use a WMO and like the IMO too), but its flaw is bad malfunction speed. The AM and FK have very hard switches (and sub optimal shape but that's besides the point) which make them completely unusable for me.


----------



## Skylit

If you true palm the AM, the switches don't feel as bad, but they're not pleasant if you try clawing. FK is going to have a lighter feel due to positioning. Feel a bit nicer for arched tapping.

Spec'd tracking speed isn't really a flaw, rather you require much more and seek a capable mouse. The point I was trying to make above is not everyone is going to need certain features, but it doesn't hurt having them.

*Thinking about it, the sensor design for the Intelli is capable of much more speed. Being limited to an extent.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> If you true palm the AM, the switches don't feel as bad, but they're not pleasant if you try clawing. FK is going to have a lighter feel due to positioning. Feel a bit nicer for arched tapping.
> 
> Spec'd tracking speed isn't really a flaw, rather you require much more and seek a capable mouse. The point I was trying to make above is not everyone is going to need certain features, but it doesn't hurt having them.
> 
> *Thinking about it, the sensor design for the Intelli is capable of much more speed. Being limited to an extent.


It seemed like the FK was nearly as bad as the AM, but I haven't used it myself. How much lighter are the switches on the FK?

Isn't the tracking speed on the WMO considered low for people with even mid sens? I'm a high sens player and still feel some neg accel sometimes at 500hz. But either way I get what you're saying, I just hate that choosing a mouse today requires your style to be compatible with what amounts to flaws. In fact, the only issues that should be accepted in a sensor by anyone IMO are high LOD, prediction, and malfunction speed assuming its not crazy low. But again your mousing style has to be compatible with that, and its likely that if you're ok with these things, its probably because you're used to them from another mouse and might do better without them. That's why I so hope bsts mice don't fall through and the come out working as they should. I think it could make a pretty big difference for a lot of people.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> It seemed like the FK was nearly as bad as the AM, but I haven't used it myself. How much lighter are the switches on the FK?
> 
> Isn't the tracking speed on the WMO considered low for people with even mid sens? I'm a high sens player and still feel some neg accel sometimes at 500hz. But either way I get what you're saying, I just hate that choosing a mouse today requires your style to be compatible with what amounts to flaws. In fact, the only issues that should be accepted in a sensor by anyone IMO are high LOD, prediction, and malfunction speed assuming its not crazy low. But again your mousing style has to be compatible with that, and its likely that if you're ok with these things, its probably because you're used to them from another mouse and might do better without them. That's why I so hope bsts mice don't fall through and the come out working as they should. I think it could make a pretty big difference for a lot of people.


Never tried the AM so can't compare, but the FK switches feel good. Compared to my Savu which had probably one of the best switch feel of all my mice, they are noticeably stiffer, but not in a bad way. After playing a bit with it I really like it (for FPS, I don't play anything else)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> Isn't the tracking speed on the WMO considered low for people with even mid sens? I'm a high sens player and still feel some neg accel sometimes at 500hz.


No way...

Mid sens is around 6/11 450dpi, 2.2-2.4 ingame in CS (not sure what game you're playing but if it's a source engine FPS the same sens applies), which is what neo uses (though he's said he changes his settings fairly often). High sens is the same settings but 3.5 ingame sens (anything over 3 you could say is high, and anything below 2.2 is low), which is what forest uses. Get right and edward use around 2.9. I've used anywhere from 1.9 to 3.6 and I've never detected any problems with the 3.0 sensor which is the same as the WMO's.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No way...
> 
> Mid sens is around 6/11 450dpi, 2.2-2.4 ingame in CS (not sure what game you're playing but if it's a source engine FPS the same sens applies), which is what neo uses (though he's said he changes his settings fairly often). High sens is the same settings but 3.5 ingame sens (anything over 3 you could say is high, and anything below 2.2 is low), which is what forest uses. Get right and edward use around 2.9. I've used anywhere from 1.9 to 3.6 and I've never detected any problems with the 3.0 sensor which is the same as the WMO's.


Well the WMO has 1.5 m/s malfunction speed at 500hz, so you only have to move it that fast to make it malfunction which is quite easy. It's also perfectly likely that you (or others) could be used to it or simply not notice it in which case it wouldn't hurt you too much in CS (no accel). After all, its just some neg accel, you can probably play at any level with that since its consistent. In quake, I can feel the negative accel acting against my in-game accel when i move the mouse at high speed which is annoying when it comes to choosing sens. Don't feel the same way when I use my AM.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Well, yeah, the AM is fine at high speeds on low sens. It has 2x higher malfunction speed. I was just disputing you labeling your sens as "high". Because at a truly medium to high sens you should not have any problems with that mouse.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Well, yeah, the AM is fine at high speeds on low sens. It has 2x higher malfunction speed. I was just disputing you labeling your sens as "high". Because at a truly medium to high sens you should not have any problems with that mouse.


Still not high enough







(malfunction speed on the AM/FK)


----------



## test user

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Still not high enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (malfunction speed on the AM/FK)


Do you REALLY hit the malfunction speeds with FK? I haven't heard anybody else ever have that problem, you must be using something like 1m/360°?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *test user*
> 
> Do you REALLY hit the malfunction speeds with FK? I haven't heard anybody else ever have that problem, you must be using something like 1m/360°?


Yes. 1 wrist swipe is exactly 180 degrees so when enemies show up behind me I swipe as fast as I can, which seems to be 4 ish m/s at several occasions.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Yes.


Me too. In deathmatch type settings with a lot of quick 180 turning it's a huge pain in the ***.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Well, yeah, the AM is fine at high speeds on low sens. It has 2x higher malfunction speed. I was just disputing you labeling your sens as "high". Because at a truly medium to high sens you should not have any problems with that mouse.


My sens is high, its about 18 cm/360 with quite a good amount of accel. When I make fast turns I do feel some negative accel. Usually i notice this when attempting to lower/change my accel and sens, but Its always quite high. My current sens is as high as it is because of this.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Holy ****... no ******* way.

I just measured what 6/11, 400/450 (IE 3.0) DPI, 2.4 sens in CS is, and it's 42cm/360, which is half as fast as your speed and there is absolutely no accel issues on this sens much less yours. Even as low as 1.9 sens ingame I've had 0 problems.

I just measured 3.6 sens which is very high and it's 28cm/360.

First of all, I'm not even sure I believe that you use 18cm/360. 4.2 sens is the highest I've ever heard of a pro using and that is 24cm/360. Then you say that you're getting negative accel on that extremely high sensitivity when negative accel is actually caused by using low sensitivities and thus the sensor can't keep up with the speeds the mouse travels at.

There must be something else wrong on your end. Your mouse or computer must be broken.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Holy ****... no ******* way.
> 
> I just measured what 6/11, 400/450 (IE 3.0) DPI, 2.4 sens in CS is, and it's 42cm/360, which is half as fast as your speed and there is absolutely no accel issues on this sens much less yours. Even as low as 1.9 sens ingame I've had 0 problems.
> 
> I just measured 3.6 sens which is very high and it's 28cm/360.
> 
> First of all, I'm not even sure I believe that you use 18cm/360. 4.2 sens is the highest I've ever heard of a pro using and that is 24cm/360. Then you say that you're getting negative accel on that extremely high sensitivity when negative accel is actually caused by using low sensitivities and thus the sensor can't keep up with the speeds the mouse travels at.
> 
> There must be something else wrong on your end. Your mouse or computer must be broken.


Dude... I don't play CS, so I don't care what CS pros use. I use 5.5 sensitivity with .5 accel in Quake Live.

Have you tested for sure that there are no sensor issues with testing programs? or do you just not feel any issues? Id like to try testing it with a program on my end if you have done so yourself and not seen any.


----------



## meih

MaximilianKohler just keeps on derailing threads because someone uses a different mouse setup than he does. Come on.


----------



## CorruptBE

If I calculate it to 400 dpi, my sens would be 2.7 ingame in CS. Forget about accell issues, the zowie mice just skip and stop tracking for me sometimes beyond 4 m/s.

So if BST can get this done and it works as intended, I'll be looking forward to it.


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Holy ****... no ******* way.
> 
> I just measured what 6/11, 400/450 (IE 3.0) DPI, 2.4 sens in CS is, and it's 42cm/360, which is half as fast as your speed and there is absolutely no accel issues on this sens much less yours. Even as low as 1.9 sens ingame I've had 0 problems.
> 
> I just measured 3.6 sens which is very high and it's 28cm/360.
> 
> First of all, I'm not even sure I believe that you use 18cm/360. 4.2 sens is the highest I've ever heard of a pro using and that is 24cm/360. Then you say that you're getting negative accel on that extremely high sensitivity when negative accel is actually caused by using low sensitivities and thus the sensor can't keep up with the speeds the mouse travels at.
> 
> There must be something else wrong on your end. Your mouse or computer must be broken.


What does sensitivity have to do with malfunction speed?


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> Well the WMO has 1.5 m/s malfunction speed at 500hz, so you only have to move it that fast to make it malfunction which is quite easy. It's also perfectly likely that you (or others) could be used to it or simply not notice it in which case it wouldn't hurt you too much in CS (no accel). After all, its just some neg accel, you can probably play at any level with that since its consistent. In quake, I can feel the negative accel acting against my in-game accel when i move the mouse at high speed which is annoying when it comes to choosing sens. Don't feel the same way when I use my AM.


1.5m/s is its perfect control speed, malfunction speed is around 2.3 on 500hz, slightly higher on both with 1000hz


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> What does sensitivity have to do with malfunction speed?


Mice malfunction when they are moved so fast that their sensor can't keep up. So mice malfunction when you are using a sensitivity that is lower than the mouse can handle.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> If I calculate it to 400 dpi, my sens would be 2.7 ingame in CS. Forget about accell issues, the zowie mice just skip and stop tracking for me sometimes beyond 4 m/s.
> 
> So if BST can get this done and it works as intended, I'll be looking forward to it.


4m/s is really fast... you should not be getting anywhere near to that speed with 400dpi, 6/11 windows, 2.7 sensitivity.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> Dude... I don't play CS, so I don't care what CS pros use. I use 5.5 sensitivity with .5 accel in Quake Live.
> 
> Have you tested for sure that there are no sensor issues with testing programs? or do you just not feel any issues? Id like to try testing it with a program on my end if you have done so yourself and not seen any.


Ok, you're talking about the WMO right?
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679
http://www.overclock.net/t/1201593/mouse-testing-software/0_50

Negative accel occurs when your sensitivity is too low. But you're using an extremely high sensitivity so any negative accel issues are not normal with the WMO. There is something else wrong on your end. Also, the fact that you're using .5 accel really messes up your Xcm/360 measurements because depending on the speed that you're moving your mouse that measurement will change. But I'm installing QL right now to test your settings.
Oh, ok. That's not unreasonably high. I use 0 accel and 4 sens in QL which is 25.4cm/360. Compared to CS where I use 42cm/360. The different and changeable FOV in QL messes up cm/360 measurements as well so it's not really a great way to compare sensitivities across different games.

Either way, it's not the WMO's fault (unless it's broken) that you're experiencing neg accel at that sensitivity.


----------



## test user

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Yes. 1 wrist swipe is exactly 180 degrees so when enemies show up behind me I swipe as fast as I can, which seems to be 4 ish m/s at several occasions.


Well now I have to agree with Kohler. I use 37cm/360 currently and when I swipe with my wrist as fast as humanly possible my EC1 doesn't come close to skipping. Enotus shows me I can't go over 3m/s without using my whole arm. It's just not possible for a human being to accelerate that fast in such a small space.

I have to confess I've never hit the malfunction speed in-game.


----------



## CorruptBE

So? We don't all have the same hands or wrists. I do reach 4 m/s often during 180 swipes with that sensitivity and if I try just a bit harder on the desktop with enotus I consistently hit 4,80 m/s. Ingame it usually maxes out at around 4 to 4.10 m/s.



Here, same pic from another thread. 4.80 m/s. Seems to be where my Savu maxes out consistently (repeat tests show similar results). The first swipe is instantly over 4 m/s, then I just push a little harder and 4.80 is where it caps out.

Not hitting 4.80 ingame, but at least the Savu has enough headroom so I don't have to worry about my mouse bloody malfunctioning ingame. Tested on a mousepad which I cleaned first (made sure the lens of the Savu was clean too, so conditions were pretty ideal).


----------



## test user

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> So? We don't all have the same hands or wrists. I do reach 4 m/s often during 180 swipes with that sensitivity and if I try just a bit harder on the desktop with enotus I consistently hit 4,80 m/s. Ingame it usually maxes out at around 4 to 4.10 m/s.
> 
> 
> 
> Here, same pic from another thread. 4.80 m/s. Seems to be where my Savu maxes out consistently (repeat tests show similar results). The first swipe is instantly over 4 m/s, then I just push a little harder and 4.80 is where it caps out.
> 
> Not hitting 4.80 ingame, but at least the Savu has enough headroom so I don't have to worry about my mouse bloody malfunctioning ingame. Tested on a mousepad which I cleaned first (made sure the lens of the Savu was clean too, so conditions were pretty ideal).


Huh, 0m/s to ~5m/s in under 20cm? Which pad are you using?


----------



## popups

You guys put to much emphasis on malfunction speed. Speeds that you will not reach in-game playing normally. Some of you take it to the extreme.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

There's got to be some error in what you're telling us. I'm using lower sensitivity than you (IE 3.0, 6/11, 2.4 in CS) and the max I reach is 1m/s.


----------



## Gabriel Ruan

I honestly can't surpass 1.5 m/s from wrist movement. I'm sure some of you are much faster, but 4 m/s sounds like alot.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> You guys put to much emphasis on malfunction speed. Speeds that you will not reach in-game playing normally. Some of you take it to the extreme.


Depends really, some mice their malfunction speed is really close to its maximum perfect control, others aren't. It is problematic however when you ARE hitting malfunction speeds ingame.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gabriel Ruan*
> 
> I honestly can't surpass 1.5 m/s from wrist movement. I'm sure some of you are much faster, but 4 m/s sounds like alot.


Swipe with your wrist but add a bit of thrust by tightening up your arm. The same way you would tighten up your arm trying to deliver a good punch onto someones face


----------



## Gabriel Ruan

Would you make a video? :3


----------



## test user

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gabriel Ruan*
> 
> Would you make a video? :3


This. Would like to see.

I'm kinda expecting a robot arm or something


----------



## CorruptBE

I would've already done so if I had a camera. Saving up to buy my own appartement so I'm like the ultimate miser atm, even my phone doesn't have a camera (cheap as hell brick type nokia). The few bits of cash I can spare go to my PC and gaming and a few beers with mates now and then









U can move your arm a little bit, but my elbow remains in the same place, like I said, it's some sort of quick snap movement I do, similar to when you would quickly karate punch someone in the face.

My flickshots are usually below 4 m/s, it's just when doing 180 turns. Since my sensitivity is basically the maximum I can physically twist my wrist at with maybe a bit of mild arm movement (elbow still in the same place) there's no muscle memory involved for 180 turns so I just full on swipe the mouse without any thought to it, knowing I'll turn exactly 180 degrees.

I also have my own weights which I lift every 2 days... if that matters at all even







(might contribute to your bionic arm theory). ---> Miser again, was cheaper to buy weights then go to the gym in the long run.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Mice malfunction when they are moved so fast that their sensor can't keep up. So mice malfunction when you are using a sensitivity that is lower than the mouse can handle.
> 4m/s is really fast... you should not be getting anywhere near to that speed with 400dpi, 6/11 windows, 2.7 sensitivity.
> Ok, you're talking about the WMO right?
> http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1201593/mouse-testing-software/0_50
> 
> Negative accel occurs when your sensitivity is too low. But you're using an extremely high sensitivity so any negative accel issues are not normal with the WMO. There is something else wrong on your end. Also, the fact that you're using .5 accel really messes up your Xcm/360 measurements because depending on the speed that you're moving your mouse that measurement will change. But I'm installing QL right now to test your settings.
> Oh, ok. That's not unreasonably high. I use 0 accel and 4 sens in QL which is 25.4cm/360. Compared to CS where I use 42cm/360. The different and changeable FOV in QL messes up cm/360 measurements as well so it's not really a great way to compare sensitivities across different games.
> 
> Either way, it's not the WMO's fault (unless it's broken) that you're experiencing neg accel at that sensitivity.


I don't measure my cm/360 with accel... its about 18-19cm/360 before accel. Now I may not be reaching malfunction speed, but I am definitely reaching perfect control speed (1 m/s), which is certainly not OK for me. I'm not going to discuss this any further as the purpose of me posting is to simply see if others agree how important bst's mouse is/how much it can do for a player.

Edit: I haven't tested it in a while, but I did just notice my mouse is at 125hz because I changed the USB port a couple of days ago and didn't set it up. I'm pretty sure when I last noticed myself hitting the perfect control speed I was using 500hz though. I'll try it out.

Edit: Yep, still quite easy to hit 1m/s.


----------



## test user

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I would've already done so if I had a camera. Saving up to buy my own appartement so I'm like the ultimate miser atm, even my phone doesn't have a camera (cheap as hell brick type nokia). The few bits of cash I can spare go to my PC and gaming and a few beers with mates now and then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U can move your arm a little bit, but my elbow remains in the same place, like I said, it's some sort of quick snap movement I do, similar to when you would quickly karate punch someone in the face.
> 
> My flickshots are usually below 4 m/s, it's just when doing 180 turns. Since my sensitivity is basically the maximum I can physically twist my wrist at with maybe a bit of mild arm movement (elbow still in the same place) there's no muscle memory involved for 180 turns so I just full on swipe the mouse without any thought to it, knowing I'll turn exactly 180 degrees.
> 
> I also have my own weights which I lift every 2 days... if that matters at all even
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (might contribute to your bionic arm theory). ---> Miser again, was cheaper to buy weights then go to the gym in the long run.


Well in any case, if you think you need higher speeds then by all means use what you like. Zowies have the lowest malfunction speeds of A3090 mice after all.


----------



## popups

If you are using Enotus, if you press any button while "testing" the speed displayed will jump to 4m/s.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *test user*
> 
> Well in any case, if you think you need higher speeds then by all means use what you like. Zowies have the lowest malfunction speeds of A3090 mice after all.


Yep, sadly they do have the loveliest of shapes of all A3090 mice imo... makes me facepalm.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> If you are using Enotus, if you press any button while "testing" the speed displayed will jump to 4m/s.


That's probably exactly what they were doing, because I'm using a significantly lower sensitivity than both of them and I only get 1m/s during the fastest possible movements I'd ever make.


----------



## Ino.

Without clicking any buttons and flicking my wrist hard I get about 3 m/s. That is also probably the fastest I move in-game normally (1.6 in source at 450 dpi)

I can go faster by moving my arm, but that only happens on the fastest right-left swipes (for example when rocket jumping)

Not every game allows you to use anticipation as much as CS does (good players rarely get back taped there afaik) so you need to turn faster. That's why the Microsoft mice always had too low perfect control speed.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That's probably exactly what they were doing, because I'm using a significantly lower sensitivity than both of them and I only get 1m/s during the fastest possible movements I'd ever make.


Are you a sloth in real life?, not trying to troll here.. but 1m/s is extremely slow.. im sure you move faster than that

a lazy swipe for me with my IME 3.0 is about 1.7m/s(palm) and 1.6m/s(wrist) for me.. it kinda starts spazzing out at around 2m/s (multi color mousepad..)

Im a palm gripper though.. so could prolly move the wrist faster if i gave it more than 20 seconds to test this


----------



## Thunderbringer

4 m/s with wrist only sounds hardcore!







(Video?) My max speed (right-handed) with wrist only left to right ~2.2m/s and right to left ~2.4m/s. But since i use wrist/arm hybrid (situation depended).. more is better (max m/s). Actually this is just another criterion.
Quote:


> Mice malfunction when they are moved so fast that their sensor can't keep up. So mice malfunction when you are using a sensitivity that is lower than the mouse can handle.


I am not sure here. The mouse malfunctions, if someone moves the mouse fast enough, i agree until here, but whether someone uses low or high sensitivity ingame is really irrelevant, since only the physical movement of the mouse counts.(?)









Edit: Wrist only, the red area is fixed, or does not move..


----------



## Gabriel Ruan

What he's implying is that for the same cursor displacement, over the same period of time, some configurations will require more mouse movement than others.


----------



## popups

If you have a multi-colored mouse pad the malfunction speed could happen sooner.


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Mice malfunction when they are moved so fast that their sensor can't keep up. So mice malfunction when you are using a sensitivity that is lower than the mouse can handle.


So the don't have anything to do with each other.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> You guys put to much emphasis on malfunction speed. Speeds that you will not reach in-game playing normally. Some of you take it to the extreme.


How exactly do you know this?


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> It's been tried, many times. From what I recall, Optical > Mechanical wiring does not work.
> 
> Just not 100% positive.


Seems as though it should be possible, isn't an optical encoder basically just a pair of photodiodes that get connected to ground?


----------



## popups

Couldn't you ask some computer repair guy?


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Couldn't you ask some computer repair guy?


Thing is, how have ever replaced an optical wheel encoder?


----------



## popups

Shouldn't they know about PCBs and MCUs?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thunderbringer*
> 
> Edit: Wrist only, the red area is fixed, or does not move..


Fixed for most movement but for 180's I lift the mouse, put it back down (moving my wrist to the utmost extreme angle on one end) and then swipe it as far and hard as I can... boom 180. If it's lower or higher then a 180 I need to adjust my sens







(comes in handy for games not using a quake/cs style scaling).

During the 180 my lower arm does move a little bit with it due to the force, so it's not completely fixed but 75 ish percent of the movement is with my wrist.

Tried doing it while fixating it like on the picture, that way I can only reach 2.85 ish m/s, so like I said, there's a small portion of lower arm movement involved for "extra thrust"


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Are you a sloth in real life?, not trying to troll here.. but 1m/s is extremely slow.. im sure you move faster than that
> 
> a lazy swipe for me with my IME 3.0 is about 1.7m/s(palm) and 1.6m/s(wrist) for me.. it kinda starts spazzing out at around 2m/s (multi color mousepad..)
> 
> Im a palm gripper though.. so could prolly move the wrist faster if i gave it more than 20 seconds to test this


Hmm, I was going to make a video of it but after a second go at it I found where the problem is. When I move my mouse fast enotus doesn't seem to detect the movement at all. Nothing in enotus changes when I move my mouse faster than ~1m/s.

Anyone have a clue what could be wrong? Also, enotus detects my 3.0 as 400 dpi but I've heard many people saying the mouse is 450 dpi. I'm on win7 x64 with default hz.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> So the don't have anything to do with each other.


Read it again, a couple times if you need to. They have everything to do with each other. It's pretty simple stuff - mice malfunction when your sensitivity is too low for that particular mouse.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> Hmm, I was going to make a video of it but after a second go at it I found where the problem is. When I move my mouse fast enotus doesn't seem to detect the movement at all. Nothing in enotus changes when I move my mouse faster than ~1m/s.
> 
> Anyone have a clue what could be wrong? Also, enotus detects my 3.0 as 400 dpi but I've heard many people saying the mouse is 450 dpi. I'm on win7 x64 with default hz..


Mine detects as 400dpi aswell, it rounds down to nearest 100~ but if you dont release the button it says about 420-450, i use mine at 500hz however, which does bring up the perfect control and malfuncion speed a bit

Hehe.. maybe its your mousepad


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Read it again, a couple times if you need to. They have everything to do with each other. It's pretty simple stuff - mice malfunction when your sensitivity is too low for that particular mouse.


Absolutely wrong. Mouse sensitivity has nothing to do with malfunction speed. Sure, it does mean that if you move your mouse fast you don't want to use a low sensitivity on a low malfunction speed mouse, but it depends entirely on your mouse movement speed and not at all on your actual in-game sensitivity.


----------



## popups

Low sensitivity requires you to move your mouse faster. High sensitivity does not require that.

Most people use a medium to high sensitivity. An Intellimouse will suit many of these users even though malfunction speed is low. For me that is not the case. I don't need 4m/s, more like 3-3.5m/s.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Mine detects as 400dpi aswell, it rounds down to nearest 100~ but if you dont release the button it says about 420-450, i use mine at 500hz however, which does bring up the perfect control and malfuncion speed a bit
> 
> Hehe.. maybe its your mousepad


It does the same thing on both this gigabyte pad and my light blue supermat. Also, when I move the mouse 10cm like it says, without releasing the mouse button it still is almost exactly 400dpi every time.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Low sensitivity requires you to move your mouse faster. High sensitivity does not require that.


Exactly. That's the only point.

IE: The razer copperhead is fine for people who use high sensitivity, but people who use low sens can't use the mouse as they'll hit the malfunction speed.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Low sensitivity requires you to move your mouse faster. High sensitivity does not require that.
> 
> Most people use a medium to high sensitivity. An Intellimouse will suit many of these users even though malfunction speed is low. For me that is not the case. I don't need 4m/s, more like 3-3.5m/s.


This is true, but Max seems to be saying that you literally can't use a low sens with a mouse with low malfunction speed. You can, it just won't work when you move fast.

And the WMO doesn't seem to be sufficient for me, I use quite a high sens, and can easily get to a point where my pointer speed just doesn't go any faster.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> It does the same thing on both this gigabyte pad and my light blue supermat. Also, when I move the mouse 10cm like it says, without releasing the mouse button it still is almost exactly 400dpi every time.


It differs on them a bit, ive had a few of them, and they all had a bit different DPI, but not enough for me to care, as long as its in the 400-450 range.. i say whatever, it wont make me play worse or better

You could try on 500hz to see if it goes above 1m/s with that


----------



## Glymbol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> When I move my mouse fast enotus doesn't seem to detect the movement at all. Nothing in enotus changes when I move my mouse faster than ~1m/s.


IMO @ 125Hz is a slow mouse.


----------



## CorruptBE

Alot of older mice suddenly get mental performance on 500+ Hz another example: http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=13


----------



## popups

How many have you sent out BST?


----------



## resis

After all that time, still in need of a proper gaming mouse.

AM, FK, CM Recon... all fail.

My Diamondback 3G is still awesome, but need to replace cord since it is malfunctioning. Still it has not very great switches and wheel feels a bit "step-less"

Need proper mouse. No idea what to go for. Looking toward the next optical CM Storm mouse aside bst's.


----------



## Nivity

Same.

I keep trying new mice but everything is garbage ;/


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Same.
> 
> I keep trying new mice but everything is garbage ;/


Same.

I went though at-least 50+ Mice in my 10 years of gaming and I couldn't find anything that I would want to keep for more then 2-3 months. The only mice that I kept were the mx518, IMO1.1, IME3.0. Bst's mouse needs to come out already its been too long, I need to replace this aging IME3.0 that double clicks.


----------



## v4mp1

Build yourself a Kinzuadder!


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> Build yourself a Kinzuadder!


Seconded, there is some pretty good info on how to build them on ESR and here.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> Build yourself a Kinzuadder!


Wont do much since it lacks sidebutton = useless.
There is no mice like BSTs.


----------



## v4mp1

I dont need sidebuttons.


----------



## Nilizum

I need sidebuttons.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> I dont need sidebuttons.


Well you said build yourself a kinzuadder, I said I need sidebuttons so building a kinzuadder would do nothing for me.
So yes its useless, because I speak for myself. I dont speak for others.


----------



## v4mp1

You can live without sidebuttons, it just take time to get used to it


----------



## Nivity

Nopp.
I use it for forward,backwards probably thousands of times per day.
Other commands are just garbage for that.


----------



## resis

I can't live without sidebuttons. Use them in every single game that I play and of course every time I use the browser/folders.


----------



## Oeshon

Any updates?


----------



## Degree

I'm just going to give up waiting, the lack of updates or posts brought down my anticipation level, I'll just get another DA.


----------



## popups

There was said to be some samples sent out recently. However, there is no updates in the newsletter.

I would say this whole thing was a fake. A big troll... Should already be cranking out mice. It isn't some new design...


----------



## Ihateallmice

I bet you can still donate him money!


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There was said to be some samples sent out recently. However, there is no updates in the newsletter.
> 
> I would say this whole thing was a fake. A big troll... Should already be cranking out mice. It isn't some new design...


Well even though i am not sure if the post in October 2011 was really the start of it, it is apparently not so easy to be done.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There was said to be some samples sent out recently. However, there is no updates in the newsletter.
> 
> I would say this whole thing was a fake. A big troll... Should already be cranking out mice. It isn't some new design...


Jfyi, I got one of those samples last week.


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bullveyr*
> 
> Jfyi, I got one of those samples last week.


I can't wait to hear the general whining when this mouse will be finished. The coating is bad, doesn't have that dpi step, scroll is hard to press, side buttons are too far back, shape is not really for me, should've used that other type of omron cause these are the bad ones, that cable is bleah, can't be bended, cut or replaced and FINALLY omg that lod? Are you serious? How am i supposed to play with 3cd lod and only 4.5 m/s?


----------



## CorruptBE

LOD: I don't care. Switches: I don't care, I'll get used to them. Coating: If the shape is good I'll get used to it. Shape: seems fine atm from the pictures. Malfunction speed? BST has reached 5 m/s, check esreality.


----------



## Berserker1

bst on esr said:
Quote:


> It also feels more dry, if that makes sense? It gets grippier with a bit of sweat (does for me anyway). The sides are grainy like a WMO.


Coating will probably suck for people with dry hands.
Idk how grippy wmo sides for dry hands are, but one mouse that I have with grainy sides is slippery in any type hands.

This is some kind of conspiracy by sweaty hands people who hate dry handed people, almost all mice have some special bs coating that needs non washed sweaty hands dipped in orange juice to hold it.


----------



## kaingosu

I've been around long enough to know what i'm talking about. At least 50% of ppl praising this mouse will hate it in the end. There are several "good enough" mice on the market atm with A3090 and some still complain. I guess the problem is not the mouse. 5m/s? I bet you a lot of money that i can find 20-30 guys that want more.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> I've been around long enough to know what i'm talking about. At least 50% of ppl praising this mouse will hate it in the end. There are several "good enough" mice on the market atm with A3090 and some still complain. I guess the problem is not the mouse. 5m/s? I bet you a lot of money that i can find 20-30 guys that want more.


Straight up ignorance without reading previous arguments about the same topic in the thread right thur.


----------



## Bullveyr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Berserker1*
> 
> bst on esr said:
> Coating will probably suck for people with dry hands.
> Idk how grippy wmo sides for dry hands are, but one mouse that I have with grainy sides is slippery in any type hands.


Top coating is fine, the non coated plain plastic sides are the issue for me.


----------



## Finwens

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Degree*
> 
> I'm just going to give up waiting, the lack of updates or posts brought down my anticipation level, I'll just get another DA.


This. I thought I was going to buy this mouse in January... it's already August, and I'm waiting for my Zowie FK to arrive. Screw this.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> I've been around long enough to know what i'm talking about. At least 50% of ppl praising this mouse will hate it in the end. There are several "good enough" mice on the market atm with A3090 and some still complain. I guess the problem is not the mouse. 5m/s? I bet you a lot of money that i can find 20-30 guys that want more.


Can you please link me these several mice with that shape and with sidebuttons?

Because I sure haven't found any, and I look for all the new mice that comes out all the time and have for years.

All I want is 800-1000dpi Logitech G1 ish shape with sidebuttons. And you know what, I havent found one.

Zowie FK,AM,Sensei etc is not even close.

From what I see there is nothing wrong with the coating, rubberish is just fine. Plastic sides is just fine (better then rubbersides what are slippery like most new mice)


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Can you please link me these several mice with that shape and with sidebuttons?
> Because I sure haven't found any, and I look for all the new mice that comes out all the time and have for years.
> All I want is 800-1000dpi Logitech G1 ish shape with sidebuttons. And you know what, I havent found one.


Bst's mice look nothing like MX300, G1, G3. They are just small ambidextrous mice. Not even G9x or G100 are shaped like that. I've been a long time fan of G1 shape (ever since i had my first ball Logitech Wheel Mouse), but sadly that shape is dead and buried. There's something about the curvature of it that seems to fit perfectly into most people's hands, but bst's mice don't have it. I can elaborate if you want me to.
That being said i fail to see why FK, Savu or even Kana can't do the job right (unless you are interested in more than 800-1000 DPI and G1 shape like you said). And even if there's one thing about a specific mouse that you don't like, almost everything except shape and sensor can be modified.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Can you please link me these several mice with that shape and with sidebuttons?
> 
> Because I sure haven't found any, and I look for all the new mice that comes out all the time and have for years.
> 
> All I want is 800-1000dpi Logitech G1 ish shape with sidebuttons. And you know what, I havent found one.
> 
> Zowie FK,AM,Sensei etc is not even close.
> 
> From what I see there is nothing wrong with the coating, rubberish is just fine. Plastic sides is just fine (better then rubbersides what are slippery like most new mice)


G3.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> G3.


I had the G3, but the sensor was quite troublesome back in the day.

The post was more about viable options with updated sensor, which I havent found any.


----------



## petejones7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> G3.


I don't understand why someone as knowledgeable as yourself would mention that mouse in that argument. You obviously know he's referring one with a proper sensor, so its just an basically just an exercise in semantics. Happens so often with many seemingly knowledgeable people on this site.


----------



## Skylit

@Nivity gotcha.

@pete Only read into G1 shape with side buttons. Sorry, It was a quick post of a mouse I'm still fond of ^^

G3 isn't actually that bad if you're okay with angle snapping and linear tracking up to around 2 meters/s ballpark. Obviously situational to user


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> G3 isn't actually that bad if you're okay with angle snapping and linear tracking up to around 2 meters/s ballpark. Obviously situational to user


Actually i think A6010 was a great sensor. I played for about 1 year with Microsoft X3 for that reason alone. Sure you hit ms every now and then, but it's the same with MLT and i don't see too many people having problems with 1.1, 3.0. In that regard G3 was a rare gem, too bad i can't find a new one anymore.
I still remember thinking 6010 succesor was going to mop the floor with everything else. Then 9500 came along and it was all downhill from there.


----------



## superior

Is this ever going to be released? Seriously...


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> Actually i think A6010 was a great sensor. I played for about 1 year with Microsoft X3 for that reason alone. Sure you hit ms every now and then, but it's the same with MLT and i don't see too many people having problems with 1.1, 3.0. In that regard G3 was a rare gem, too bad i can't find a new one anymore.
> I still remember thinking 6010 succesor was going to mop the floor with everything else. Then 9500 came along and it was all downhill from there.


The specific 6006 architecture is based on the model people want to "upgrade" to. A lot of the early mice actually performed rather poor due to basic programming, granted VCSEL quality has also improved much since then ^^


----------



## detto87

Yeah, August is here and still no mouse released.
I'm beginning to doubt we'll ever see it happen.
At least bst could post something so we know the project's still alive.


----------



## Nivity

Meh I had the thought if it comes it comes.

In the meantime I keep wasting money on new mice


----------



## Limniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Yeah, August is here and still no mouse released.
> I'm beginning to doubt we'll ever see it happen.
> At least bst could post something so we know the project's still alive.


I'm pretty sure that it's still alive since he just sent out new samples.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> I'm pretty sure that it's still alive since he just sent out new samples.


Wait, so we need to travel back in time to get the Quake Wars version of the mouse?


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> I'm pretty sure that it's still alive since he just sent out new samples.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*


----------



## Limniscate

I think the Quake logos were photoshopped onto the image of the most recent samples.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> I think the Quake logos were photoshopped onto the image of the most recent samples.


Wasn't he handing out 1 or 2 or these for a Quakelive competition? Dunno I remember seeing something like that on Esreality. Might be a special version just for that.


----------



## Nivity

Glossy one with quake logo is sexy as f...


----------



## Battou62

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Limniscate*
> 
> I'm pretty sure that it's still alive since he just sent out new samples.


You mean I have to decide between glossy and rubber finishes? Nah, I'll just get both. Now all we need is a textured plastic model.


----------



## Tazzzz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Wasn't he handing out 1 or 2 or these for a Quakelive competition? Dunno I remember seeing something like that on Esreality. Might be a special version just for that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0fNWyYk6QI
here in the end he said that cypher won it


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Battou62*
> 
> You mean I have to decide between glossy and rubber finishes? Nah, I'll just get both. Now all we need is a textured plastic model.


I also asked myself the question. Answer was "both". The sides of both will be textured plastic from what I know. The rubber coating is the same coating as with the Deathadder rubber, so it's not gonna be ultra smooth, but have a good grip.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tazzzz*
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0fNWyYk6QI
> here in the end he said that cypher won it


Nice, so it seems even more official now.


----------



## CorruptBE

Rubber for me


----------



## popups

I hate rubber coatings. They are so unprofessional, amongst other things.


----------



## discoprince

liking the glossy


----------



## superior

Seriously when can I buy this mouse, I'm so keen.


----------



## eMbAh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *superior*
> 
> Seriously when can I buy this mouse, I'm so keen.


Tell me about it!


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I hate rubber coatings. _*They are so unprofessional, amongst other things*_.


hmm, what?

So rubbercoating = unprofessional, now thats a first


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> hmm, what?
> 
> So rubbercoating = unprofessional, now thats a first


Why? Most rubber coatings are complete crap, they either come of quickly or are slippery as ****.

Using a good base material instead of a coating would be "professional", like the Mionix NAOS 5000. Best surface I've seen so far on mice. Even better than the FK which I like in terms of surface feel.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Why? Most rubber coatings are complete crap, they either come of quickly or are slippery as ****.
> 
> Using a good base material instead of a coating would be "professional", like the Mionix NAOS 5000. Best surface I've seen so far on mice. Even better than the FK which I like in terms of surface feel.


For me the AM has the best rubber coating. After more than a year of use it still looks almost new, only a bit change is visible on the main button, but barely. And the coating is very grippy and looks very clean. Also interesting is that the coating muffles the sound if you touch/rub it.

The FK is very noisy if I swipe my hand over the surface, it's like the sound gets resonated in the mouse like a guitar, because the super stiff coating doesn't muffle it and the spots where I grip it already look worn off, nearly polished where I grip it only after few months of use. Even if I clean the FK with a wet towel, it still looks worn and used, while the AM looks very fresh and clean.

So for me the FK coating is the most unprofessional I've used and AM the best coating that I had my hands on yet.

Textured/grainy plastic wears off fast and leaves those elliptic polished/glossy spots where you hold it. I fail to see how this is professional, unless you're hardcore gamer and buy cheaper mice and switch them every few months. I buy quality stuff to use it as long as possible. Only reason I bought several mice past time, is because I grew very dissatisfied with the shapes and other things.

The Razer glossy sides of their older mice never wore off, they never changed color or texture either. So glossy plastic and AM's rubber coating are the best quality and most durable surfaces I had with mice so far.

Please Aurora, end this torment. Be good.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> For me the AM has the best rubber coating. After more than a year of use it still looks almost new, only a bit change is visible on the main button, but barely. And the coating is very grippy and looks very clean. Also interesting is that the coating muffles the sound if you touch/rub it.
> 
> The FK is very noisy if I swipe my hand over the surface, it's like the sound gets resonated in the mouse like a guitar, because the super stiff coating doesn't muffle it and the spots where I grip it already look worn off, nearly polished where I grip it only after few months of use. Even if I clean the FK with a wet towel, it still looks worn and used, while the AM looks very fresh and clean.
> 
> So for me the FK coating is the most unprofessional I've used and AM the best coating that I had my hands on yet.
> 
> Textured/grainy plastic wears off fast and leaves those elliptic polished/glossy spots where you hold it. I fail to see how this is professional, unless you're hardcore gamer and buy cheaper mice and switch them every few months. I buy quality stuff to use it as long as possible. Only reason I bought several mice past time, is because I grew very dissatisfied with the shapes and other things.
> 
> The Razer glossy sides of their older mice never wore off, they never changed color or texture either. So glossy plastic and AM's rubber coating are the best quality and most durable surfaces I had with mice so far.
> 
> Please Aurora, end this torment. Be good.


True the FK has spots where I grip it, but I don't care for looks at all, only how good I can grip it. And it's really good for that. Never tried the AM so can't tell. But the DA BE rubber coating (which some people call grippy...) is the most horrible coating ever because it is slippery as soap for me.


----------



## Oeshon

To me the AM coating is the worst. I can't get any kind of grip on the mouse, it slips right of my hand. On the contrary I get a pretty solid grip on the FK.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oeshon*
> 
> To me the AM coating is the worst. I can't get any kind of grip on the mouse, it slips right of my hand. On the contrary I get a pretty solid grip on the FK.


Yeah, that's why I like the FK. And the NAOS 5000 has even better material, too bad it is let down by the sensor (for me).


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I hate rubber coatings. They are so unprofessional, amongst other things.


Meh it's a preference thing.


----------



## jouzeroff

Xai coating is the best thats it


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Meh it's a preference thing.


Applied on glossy plastic, wears off fast and leaves residue after it does. It doesn't supply good traction. Seems more like a gimmick/marketing feature. If anything, it's applied to mice to make them look higher in quality.


----------



## Axaion

Heh, im finding it absolutely hilarious that the good old IME 3.0 and MX5xx mice coating still beats the hell out of almost all the new "super awesome" coatings.

Worst coating ive ever tried was the EC1 eVo, that thing was just horrible, when you have to game for an hour before it stops skittering about in your hand, and the previous coatings provide awesome grip no matter what.. that just feel like they gimp the coatings on purpose to make sure we buy new mice when they wear off -.-

Oh yes, i have alot of trust in mouse companies!


----------



## Berserker1

latest update:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2461828

release date within 2013


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> True the FK has spots where I grip it, but I don't care for looks at all, only how good I can grip it. And it's really good for that. Never tried the AM so can't tell. But the DA BE rubber coating (which some people call grippy...) is the most horrible coating ever because it is slippery as soap for me.


I didn't try DA BE, but people say the Roccat Kone Optical has the same material (or it just feels like it) and I can say that it is the worst and most slippery thing I've had in my hand, indeed.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oeshon*
> 
> To me the AM coating is the worst. I can't get any kind of grip on the mouse, it slips right of my hand. On the contrary I get a pretty solid grip on the FK.


For me it is the exact opposite. AM sticks to my hand despite the / \ shape, solely because of the coating and FK is rather slippery, or it was, I think it gets better when it wears in, but is still not as good as AM.

So it's not the mice/material, it's the people. Hence I think there should be mice in two versions, such that are good for dry hands and others that are good for moistly hands. A good shape should improve the grip even more.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Applied on glossy plastic, wears off fast and leaves residue after it does. It doesn't supply good traction. Seems more like a gimmick/marketing feature. If anything, it's applied to mice to make them look higher in quality.


Wrong.
None of my rubber have ever wore off.
My DA 3G top is 100% perfect.
My Xai is 100% perfect.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

Just because you like glossy plastic does not mean it's the best.
Far from it.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Why? Most rubber coatings are complete crap, they either come of quickly or are slippery as ****.
> 
> Using a good base material instead of a coating would be "professional", like the Mionix NAOS 5000. Best surface I've seen so far on mice. Even better than the FK which I like in terms of surface feel.


So that makes the unprofessional, dumbest thing I ever heard









Da 3G rubberized top is perfect, never EVER wears off.
My Xai have the best rubberized I ever seen. 100% intact and perfect.
My Sensei Raw is very good (not as good as the XAI, but close)

I have 100% grip on all those mice.

Savu plastic is horrible.
Glossy plastic all over the mouse is horrible (I never EVER sweat on my hand when gaming, on a 100% glossy plastic I do, pure garbage)

Not all mice are DA BE.

Saying rubberized = unprofessional is just 100% ignorance and lack of knowledge.

But im not gonna bother with people that haven't tried most mice and coatings (not talking about you but that popup dude)
Waste of my time.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Wrong.
> None of my rubber have ever wore off.
> My DA 3G top is 100% perfect.
> My Xai is 100% perfect.
> 
> You have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> Just because you like glossy plastic does not mean it's the best.
> Far from it.


Never wore off for me either. Exception is the original Diamondback, I used to really scratch the main button with the nail until it started to wear off and the glossy plastic revealed itself, but this is something you should not do with any mouse. Rubber coating has been rock solid for me otherwise.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Saying rubberized = unprofessional is just 100% ignorance and lack of knowledge.


Depends on the actual coating. It can go from super slippery to super grippy and the worst part of it all is that people perceive this differently, so what's super slippery for one is super grippy for the other. Nobody wins here.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> Bst's mice look nothing like MX300, G1, G3. They are just small ambidextrous mice. Not even G9x or G100 are shaped like that. I've been a long time fan of G1 shape (ever since i had my first ball Logitech Wheel Mouse), but sadly that shape is dead and buried. There's something about the curvature of it that seems to fit perfectly into most people's hands, but bst's mice don't have it. I can elaborate if you want me to.
> That being said i fail to see why FK, Savu or even Kana can't do the job right (unless you are interested in more than 800-1000 DPI and G1 shape like you said). And even if there's one thing about a specific mouse that you don't like, almost everything except shape and sensor can be modified.


No they dont have that shell. I know very well how BSTs mouse look like and I love it.
Its small, its FLAT (most important)
I have the Kana the switches are 100% useless, its garbage. The sidebuttons are crap and more in the way (way to big wanting to try and look like IE 1.1 and failed)
The Savu is not ambidextrous mouse, have a huge bumb on the back end, useless slippery coating on side. (Ps I have this mouse aswell)
The FK is narrow, have useless DPI settings (800-1000 req). Ps Also have this mouse.

So no there is no mouse out there thats even close to BSTs.
I already tried them all, so no matter how deep you go It wont matter.

The best mouse atm is the Raw for me.
The ONLY somewhat ok mouse is the Raw for me. Its ligher then Sensei. It is abit long however.
Sensor flaws is something I have to be okey with, because all other mice have useless shape or other junk thats way worse.

From the looks of it I prefer BSTS back curve way more then G1 aswell..

So Im gonna continue and dream of these mice because they will **** on every single mouse out there.
Because no one makes shape like that with sidebuttons.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Never wore off for me either. Exception is the original Diamondback, I used to really scratch the main button with the nail until it started to wear off and the glossy plastic revealed itself, but this is something you should not do with any mouse. Rubber coating has been rock solid for me otherwise.
> Depends on the actual coating. It can go from super slippery to super grippy and the worst part of it all is that people perceive this differently, so what's super slippery for one is super grippy for the other. Nobody wins here.


That also goes for plastic.
Plastic differ ALOT.
No plastic is the same on mice.

So I might aswell say that plastic is unprofessional because there is no standard that they follow.


----------



## end0rphine

Sounds like the mouse is approx 3-4 months away based on bst's latest update.


----------



## Berserker1

as we all know bst's predictions are about 1 year off so
in reality its gonna be late 2014


----------



## Oeshon

If the Kana V2 gets released soon with the Avago 3090 and Omron switches I don't see any need for bst's mouse anymore. Knowing SteelSeries they will probably find a way to ruin the mouse, but if they don't it will be a big hit.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oeshon*
> 
> If the Kana V2 gets released soon with the Avago 3090 and Omron switches I don't see any need for bst's mouse anymore. Knowing SteelSeries they will probably find a way to ruin the mouse, but if they don't it will be a big hit.


Kana has the best shape, like an improved AM, but I'm not buying into SteelSeries. Besides only one side button (what the heck?), won't work for me. So for some people, like myself, the Kana V2 won't be sufficient. Shame though, because the shape is god sent.


----------



## Lompang

the side button on the kana is ******* weird and huge they should just change it


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> So that makes the unprofessional, dumbest thing I ever heard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Da 3G rubberized top is perfect, never EVER wears off.
> My Xai have the best rubberized I ever seen. 100% intact and perfect.
> My Sensei Raw is very good (not as good as the XAI, but close)
> 
> I have 100% grip on all those mice.
> 
> Savu plastic is horrible.
> Glossy plastic all over the mouse is horrible (I never EVER sweat on my hand when gaming, on a 100% glossy plastic I do, pure garbage)
> 
> Not all mice are DA BE.
> 
> Saying rubberized = unprofessional is just 100% ignorance and lack of knowledge.
> 
> But im not gonna bother with people that haven't tried most mice and coatings (not talking about you but that popup dude)
> Waste of my time.


Is the top shell of the DA considered rubberized? Maybe I'm wrong on the definition as I thought it was the same as in German, but that might not be the case. Because to me the top shell would be plastic.

Just to clear things up as to what I meant with rubber: soft material that gives in when you push it. Those are the materials that I found to come off easily as they are only applied onto a glossy base material. If something like Xai or FK is considered rubber than of course some versions of rubber (like these) are very good.

I also agree, DA top shell feels very nice and has no wear.


----------



## Battou62

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Sounds like the mouse is approx 3-4 months away based on bst's latest update.


***. They are pissing me off so bad with these continued delays. Ninox is really gonna screw around and miss this small window of opportunity they have. I feel bad for BST having to put up with this BS also. There is absolutely no reason it should have taken this long to make the mouse.


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Is the top shell of the DA considered rubberized? Maybe I'm wrong on the definition as I thought it was the same as in German, but that might not be the case. Because to me the top shell would be plastic.
> Just to clear things up as to what I meant with rubber: soft material that gives in when you push it. Those are the materials that I found to come off easily as they are only applied onto a glossy base material. If something like Xai or FK is considered rubber than of course some versions of rubber (like these) are very good.
> I also agree, DA top shell feels very nice and has no wear.


"Plastic" or regular paint you can find on WMO or IMO. DA and Xai are considered rubberized, but there obviously are tons of different plastic paints out there. Some are softer than other, some are smoother (like on DA). Applying several layers of paint also changes the feeling.


----------



## popups

*@Nivity*

The mice I have with rubber coatings have worn off -- be it the sides or the top. The keyboards I have with that coating have as well. Those products are not from the same factory. Maybe if you have girl hands the coating will not wear off as fast or at all. My hands are more rough (I handle firearms) and I play a lot of hours when I do.

"Lack of knowledge" _is the definition_ of ignorance.

You mean tried to look like the Intellimouse Optical 1.1?

The AM/FK has CPI steps of: ~490, ~1225, ~2450. If you play a game that won't let you change your sensitivity properly it isn't the fault of the mouse.

If mice companies would (solely) stick to the original CPI of the sensor the majority would complain...

Far as I am aware most mice are made of the same type of plastic. If a mouse was to be all black (favorite color of most) and glossy it would be frowned upon by consumers. It would be labeled "cheap" because you can see scratches, grime and oil from hands. Why do you think some electronic companies use white for glossy plastic or a matte plastic for black? Coating a cheaper glossy black plastic with a fragile rubber, to make it look like a higher end product, is (to me) an amateur/cheap thing to do. Attempting to adhere a coating to a smooth surface isn't only amateur it's humorous.


----------



## Degree

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Berserker1*
> 
> latest update:
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2461828
> 
> release date within 2013


*aiming for*


----------



## popups

Would anyone here choose the Kana v2 over BST's mouse? Just curious.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Would anyone here choose the Kana v2 over BST's mouse? Just curious.


Me, that is if it was at least done somewhat right.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Would anyone here choose the Kana v2 over BST's mouse? Just curious.


If it was a good mouse, no doubt I'd get the kana over bst's mouse. I'm very happy with my zealot jr so I don't really plan to buy either one of those mice anyways though.

The main reason to be very cautious of buying the aurora is that bst will be selling his mice directly, not through retailers. Imagine what the customer service would be like. If your mouse is faulty you will -never- be able to get it replaced. You probably wouldn't even get a response. How is someone who can't even handle mass communication pre launch (EASY+ fast) going to handle hundreds if not thousands of individual service requests and RMA cases(HARD+ time consuming).


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Would anyone here choose the Kana v2 over BST's mouse? Just curious.


If the Kana v2 has the same buttons as the Kana then no. Far to big and I always accidentally clicked them while swiping.

Otherwise it depends on performance of both. But seriously, how hard would it be for Steelseries to release a Xai/Sensei optical?


----------



## SoFGR

regular IMO 1.1 was very slippery for me unless i had 100% dry hands, it's much better when coated with glossy paint !

cm storm spawn is perfect grip and ergonomics wise, hope they will only mess with the sensor in the next revision.

ec evo's rubber is not that bad, it needs some "break-in" tho, very weird feel when fresh out of the box !


----------



## resis

I put my hand on a Kana (V1) in the store today. I love the shape and coating/material. Such mosue with 3090 and proper software would be indeed very attractive, but the single sidebutton is a deal breaker.

I gave up on logic in life already. There is a good mice being made but some genius decides it's a single sidebutton mouse as homage to the single sidebutton 1.1. Seriously.


----------



## snexwang

^ It has two side buttons. One of each side.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *snexwang*
> 
> ^ It has two side buttons. One of each side.


This post deserves a REP-


----------



## snexwang

Semantics are my speciality.


----------



## Scorpion667

Guys BST has been in a fatal accident. The project is now canceled.

JK BST where the heck you at brah

It's been 16 months since you opened this thread WASSUP


----------



## superior

From a business point of view this mouse needs to be released before he has to compete with the likes of the Kana v2 and other incoming mice that'll use flawless sensors and popularly demanded shapes... Just my 2 cents.


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *superior*
> 
> use flawless sensors


What's that? Is it a new invention?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> What's that? Is it a new invention?


He's referring to sensors like the ADNS 3090 which have no real flaws.


----------



## RyuLAN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *superior*
> 
> From a business point of view this mouse needs to be released before he has to compete with the likes of the Kana v2 and other incoming mice that'll use flawless sensors and popularly demanded shapes... Just my 2 cents.


Yep, market opportunity drying up. I'm going Kana V2 methinks.

-Ryu


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> He's referring to sensors like the ADNS 3090 which have no real flaws.


I know what he meant. I was being sarcastic towards "flawless sensors". You don't consider 4mm LOD a real flaw? Half the people on this forum beg to differ. The low number of DPI steps doesn't help either. I could go on, but those are subjective opinions thus not worth mentioning. Of course A3090 is the best compromise at the moment, but flawless? Not by a long shot!


----------



## Scorpion667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> I know what he meant. I was being sarcastic towards "flawless sensors". You don't consider 4mm LOD a real flaw? Half the people on this forum beg to differ. The low number of DPI steps doesn't help either. I could go on, but those are subjective opinions thus not worth mentioning. Of course A3090 is the best compromise at the moment, but flawless? Not by a long shot!


4mm liftoff? Reminds me of DA 3.5 =(


----------



## FoxWolf1

I'm still waiting for someone to combine an A3090 with a little post on the bottom of the mouse to detect lift (A4tech did a series of mice with this, but not with an excellent sensor), or even an additional sensor (possibly laser) just for lift detection. Then you could have lower LOD without sacrificing other attributes of the tracking quality, albeit at the price of some extra weight and cost...


----------



## popups

Spoiler: Comment



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuLAN*
> 
> Yep, market opportunity drying up. I'm going Kana V2 methinks.





Yup. The Kana v2 will be a great choice for claw and (possibly) finger tip grip users. I think it is a no go for palm grip because of the side buttons and that gap.

Will BST's mouse be comfortable for palm grip users? Probably not. The scroll wheel is far back, it's short and the side buttons (like the Diamondback) are an after thought. The mouse looks more for finger tip and (possibly) claw grip.

The Diamondback was one of my favorite shapes, excluding the sides and no resting area in front of the scroll wheel. My other favorite shape is the Intellimouse Optical, but I haven't used that in a long time. That being said, I moved onto the AM as a compromise. Unfortunately, the FK was a large disappointment.



Spoiler: Comment



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FoxWolf1*
> 
> I'm still waiting for someone to combine an A3090 with a little post on the bottom of the mouse to detect lift (A4tech did a series of mice with this, but not with an excellent sensor), or even an additional sensor (possibly laser) just for lift detection. Then you could have lower LOD without sacrificing other attributes of the tracking quality, albeit at the price of some extra weight and cost...





Or they could do what Microsoft did.


----------



## Tazzzz

LOD is not a critical issue. you can get used to basically any lod from 1.5 up to 4 mm so that it will not affect your game


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tazzzz*
> 
> LOD is not a critical issue. you can get used to basically any lod from 1.5 up to 4 mm so that it will not affect your game


Not true. It does affect me negatively if LOD is to high or to low. Anything above 2.5mm is way to high. Anything below 1.5mm is to low.


----------



## CorruptBE

How then? I've played with mice with so many different LOD's, never bothered me, I in fact needed more time to adjust to low LOD mice then high LOD.


----------



## Skylit

I funny enough have different views when using alternative hands.

High lift combinations don't bother me on left, though I feel as if i'm hindered when using my right hand to move mouse. Weird huh?


----------



## nsKb

LOD is not at all a critical issue for many users, low malfunction speed is.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I funny enough have different views when using alternative hands.
> 
> High lift combinations don't bother me on left, though I feel as if i'm hindered when using my right hand to move mouse. Weird huh?


Your dominant hand is stronger so you need less effort to lift the same distance.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> How then? I've played with mice with so many different LOD's, never bothered me, I in fact needed more time to adjust to low LOD mice then high LOD.


Do you have a mouse with under 1.3mm of LOD? Do you use a very low sensitivity? Maybe you don't need to lift the mouse twice to do a 180 or 360. So, LOD doesn't matter to you.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> LOD is not at all a critical issue for many users, low malfunction speed is.


The Zowie mice have "low" malfunction speed. They never give me problems with the correct mouse pad.

I think a mouse with a tuned LOD and decent malfunction speed is better than a high LOD with high malfunction speed. You guys don't even reach those high speeds in normal play. If you are having problems with malfunction speed it's because you are using the wrong surface.


----------



## Berserker1

Too high or too low lod is bad for different mouse shape, grip, sensitivity and playstyle. Optimal for most players should be ~1.8mm.

Played with lod as low as it doesnt track on one CD, tracks about 0.3mm from mouse feet, a3060 with somewhat low prediction + tapefix. Felt great, really easy and fast to repostion and aim.
It gets unplayable with high lod >2.5mm.
I use fingertip grip, medium sensitivity 29cm/360 and reposition my mouse constantly.


----------



## Hackshot

How can lod be too low? Low lod is vital to me so I can always easily re-position my mouse to the most comfortable position, with both high and low sensitivities; using a low sensitivity I had to pickup the mouse a lot so I didn't run out of mousepad and with high sensitivities I could only control the mouse with my wrist, so although I needed less space I had a smaller control angle to deal with and had to constantly re-position the mouse so I didn't end up with my wrist twisted


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I think a mouse with a tuned LOD and decent malfunction speed is better than a high LOD with high malfunction speed. You guys don't even reach those high speeds in normal play. If you are having problems with malfunction speed it's because you are using the wrong surface.


No it's because I'm actually reaching 4 m/s ingame...

LOD is a secondary issue imo, no point to a mouse if it can't even track reliably.


----------



## krokdylz

So what is the updated releasedate ? 2015 ?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> No it's because I'm actually reaching 4 m/s ingame...
> 
> LOD is a secondary issue imo, no point to a mouse if it can't even track reliably.


Are you calculating the actual m/s or are you just going by what Enotus says?


----------



## Alma69

I trayed hard to provoke malfunction with zowie ec1 evo on red g-cm... without success.
So I think that if thare is any speed malfunction problem with zowie mouses, its be couse not proper mouse pad for this one.


----------



## therealgillz

LOD is a big issue, I'm surprised people are saying it isn't. the zowie AM is unusable to be because of the LOD (way too low). The logitech G3 has a super high LOD and it does make a difference. It's sad to think all this work went into making a borderline "perfect" mouse and none of it really matters since the LOD ruins it. hopefully it gets fixed or adjusted so it's not as severe


----------



## Axaion

best lod so far ive seen is still the intellimice like the IME 3.0 IM0 3.0 and WMO Imo


----------



## Skylit

Not static^ Particularity LED variance.

I have a intelli's from a late batch that track rather high on QcK. Others being very low on same pad ^^

While surface is important, I think you guys should be aware of difference between alternative LEDs or simple tolerance between mice.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Not static^ Particularity LED variance.
> 
> I have a intelli's from a late batch that track rather high on QcK. Others being very low on same pad ^^
> 
> While surface is important, I think you guys should be aware of difference between alternative LEDs or simple tolerance between mice.


Weren't the later batches not as good?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> best lod so far ive seen is still the intellimice like the IME 3.0 IM0 3.0 and WMO Imo


IE 3.0 LOD is too high. I have an extra pair of mousefeet on mine that lower the LOD though, so it's ok for me like this.


----------



## Skylit

I love how some people don't read.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Weren't the later batches not as good?


They track similarly, albeit higher lift off per surface base.

I didn't like the coating on the grey IE3.0s (2007-2010) Wore out too quick.

Coating on 2003-2006 was nice. Late Legends edition is also good imho.


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I think you guys should be aware of difference between alternative LEDs


Hmm that's a surprise. I never had 2 mice from different batches that act differently in that regard (at least i didn't notice). How would that affect IPS or fps?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaingosu*
> 
> Hmm that's a surprise. I never had 2 mice from different batches that act differently in that regard (at least i didn't notice). How would that affect IPS or fps?


In theory it would increase it. However, I think the Intellimouse's platform has a lower performance limit.

I can play with the Intellimouse with my low (84/+ cm 360) sensitivity, but I cannot do fast reaction shots. It is odd how the frame rate (or maybe polling rate?) makes the Intellimouse feel faster on lower sensitivities in comparison to the Avago and PixArt sensors. It was hard to blindly (no measuring) find my sensitivity with the Microsoft sensor. Whereas, with the PixArt and Avago sensor I can blindly find my sensitivity.


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It is odd how the frame rate (or maybe polling rate?) makes the Intellimouse feel faster on lower sensitivities in comparison to the Avago and PixArt sensors.


I had the same feeling, more or less. I came to the conclusion that the amount of "prediction" is also very important. Till this day the MLT04 is the sensor with the lowest amount of prediction i ever used. It has the best tracking quality by far and unlike you i had no serious problems with max speed. Though PCS is a problem, even if my sensitivity is higher than yours (45-50 cm/360).


----------



## popups

The malfunction speed limits on the MLT-04 doesn't allow me do the same kind of AWP flick shots I can do with the other sensors. If I was an AWPer in CS I wouldn't use the Microsoft mice ever.


----------



## Syncope

http://www.monsterlabs.co.kr/shop/product_detail.html?pd_no=31

PixArt 3509DH though...


----------



## therealgillz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Syncope*
> 
> http://www.monsterlabs.co.kr/shop/product_detail.html?pd_no=31
> 
> PixArt 3509DH though...


92g though? that's pretty heavy for a wmo/g1 shaped mouse imo. lame, I would of tried that mouse too


----------



## Berserker1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *therealgillz*
> 
> 92g though? that's pretty heavy for a wmo/g1 shaped mouse imo. lame, I would of tried that mouse too


probably has some removable weights inside, or measured with cable

because average costumers consider that lightweight = cheap


----------



## superior

What's the go with this mouse, when was the last update?


----------



## ich1ban

People are still waiting for this mouse?...


----------



## Syncope

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *superior*
> 
> What's the go with this mouse, when was the last update?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Some news:
> 
> The factory told me that the certification (needed for selling the mouse) should be finished in 2 weeks, and the problem with 400 DPI should be finished in 1 week.
> 
> *So it looks like it will be out in time for Xmas*, I will put up the pre-orders when they finish those two tasks, I don't want to take peoples money in-development, I could have done that a year ago and would have had a lot of unhappy customers now, which is the last thing I want


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BST*
> Update:
> 
> The development stage is now over
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got a new sample today and everything is working perfectly (including 400 DPI). Feels great that I don't have to worry about the software or FW any more, and can be confident about its specifications, and that its going to satisfy people when they buy it.
> 
> Just waiting for the certification results now, it shouldn't be long, hopefully just a few days now. Then I'll promote it a lot more and ofc let people order them


http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2480718


----------



## eXecuution

Yesss and just in time for the new rig and BF4


----------



## Limniscate

It's about time!


----------



## Imprecision

The Mouse-Savior Cometh!


----------



## jayfkay

palm-grip version plz
more variants for palmgrippers required.. right now there is basically only 2 valid options for palmers with big hands.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> palm-grip version plz
> more variants for palmgrippers required.. right now there is basically only 2 valid options for palmers with big hands.


The entire purpose of this mouse is because there are no small, ambidextrous mice with decent sensors. There are already too many palm grip / neanderthal mice with good sensors (G400 + Deathadder).


----------



## RyuLAN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> The entire purpose of this mouse is because there are no small, ambidextrous mice with decent sensors. There are already too many palm grip / neanderthal mice with good sensors (G400 + Deathadder).


FK, Kana V2

-Ryu


----------



## Imprecision

I think the other issue here is that it's much easier to find an ambidextrous shell that will fit many people than an ergonomic shell, and Ninox is going to be a very small company.

Also bear in mind that neither the Kana v2 or the Zowie FK were even announced when development on these mice initially started. I don't think even the 'bad' optical mice currently in Steelseries's product line were out back then.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

>FK, kana v2, g400, DA

Neither the DA or FK fit my hand. The g400 is only good for palm grip. And the kana I have yet to test.

The hope is that BST's mouse will not only fit my hand in palm grip, but that I will be able to use it in finger tip grip (for RTS - sc2) as well. Currently there isn't a mouse on the market that fits that ability.

Small mice are great for finger tip grip - RTS, and there are some small mice that I've been able to palm grip no problem. Whereas others like the FK, AM, xai, DA, etc. all have various shape issues that prevent me from being able to palm them. So we'll just have to see how it goes with the Aurora.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuLAN*
> 
> FK, Kana V2
> 
> -Ryu


They're getting close but they can't do this:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2363237/re-new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2363237


----------



## popups

Spoiler: Comment



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> They're getting close but they can't do this: http://www.esreality.com/post/2363237/re-new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2363237





Useless. No one is going to need that much speed. It's like having a street car with ridiculous horsepower. There is a point where those numbers mean nothing. The Zowie mice are said to have low malfunction speed, but they don't malfunction when I play with a 84cm sensitivity. People are starting to use these tracking speed numbers like others use DPI. Malfunction speed is important, however, how it performs up to that point is more so. For instance the Kana has very high malfunction speed. I don't think people are going to say that PixArt sensor is better than the Avago sensor.


----------



## Berserker1

bst's mouse has good dpi steps, low latency and low lift off
other mice dont


----------



## Scorpion667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Berserker1*
> 
> bst's mouse has good dpi steps, low latency and low lift off
> other mice dont


Lies. The mouse is a myth.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> Lies. The mouse is a myth.


When I get one in my hand then it isn't.


----------



## Battou62

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> When I get one in my hand then it isn't.


Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## Syncope

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Battou62*
> 
> Pics or it didn't happen.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> When I *get* one in my hand then it isn't.


----------



## reddy89

Really looking forward to this mouse. Finally a proper lightweight mouse. I just wish lightweight didn't mean small as well. Something like a DeathAdder shape coming in at ~70g would be perfect. Hopefully the Aurora won't be unbearably small or difficult to palm.


----------



## jayfkay

apparently you didnt watch this cuz the mouse is really tiny.
example: http://www.erasem.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pid=55#top_display_media


----------



## reddy89

Ya I know BST's mouse is tiny. I was just wondering if we would ever see a large lightweight mouse or if it's even possible.


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reddy89*
> 
> Ya I know BST's mouse is tiny. I was just wondering if we would ever see a large lightweight mouse or if it's even possible.


Yes, it is possible to make a deathadder sized mouse weight about what BST's mouse does.


----------



## discoprince

pumped to see this will be finally released.
guess ill pass on the Kana v2 since this will be hitting the states about the same time.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

First of all, the Aurora isn't that small. It looks to be similar in size to the IE 1.1 which is not a small mouse. Secondly, just because a mouse is small doesn't mean it can't be palm gripped - even by people like me with large hands.


----------



## superior

Hopefully it can be palm gripped by small-medium hand users, need a MIE 3.0 shape, that was perfect for palm grippers.

Has anybody got the dimensions for this mouse? I can palm grip the Kinzu v2 pretty comfortably even though it's a tad small.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> First of all, the Aurora isn't that small. It looks to be similar in size to the IE 1.1 which is not a small mouse. Secondly, just because a mouse is small doesn't mean it can't be palm gripped - even by people like me with large hands.


It's about 7mm shorter than the FK. I noticed the 2mm difference of the Kana. So, 7mm will definitely be a massive difference; especially when you like to rest your finger in-front of the scroll wheel. For my hand it will end up being a finger tip mouse or a claw -- two styles I dislike.


----------



## v4mp1

Aurora dimensions: 116 x 62 x 38 mm.


----------



## Emospence

Subscribed.

Just in case.


----------



## RentoN

http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/

Last couple posts.

So what do you think how long will it take from pre-order to actual release.

Definitely going to get it, even though I just gut my new Zowie FK.


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/
> 
> Last couple posts.
> 
> So what do you think how long will it take from pre-order to actual release.
> 
> Definitely going to get it, even though I just gut my new Zowie FK.


If the development timeframes are any indicator: somewhere around 1 to 1.5 years. Srs.


----------



## jayfkay

I assume you are not going to preorder then xD


----------



## Imprecision

The product that takes as long to manufacture as it does to develop is poorly conceived indeed.


----------



## v4mp1

GO GET THAT PREORDER ONLINE FFS


----------



## Ukkooh

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






Bumping with a 1080p Aurora wallpaper that Ninox posted to facebook.


----------



## Axaion

jpeg artifacts everywhere :|


----------



## toopz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bumping with a 1080p Aurora wallpaper that Ninox posted to facebook.


oK this mouse came out of space we get it.


----------



## LarsMarkelson

I heard Alfonso Cuaron used this mouse to edit Gravity.


----------



## discoprince

i heard Chuck Norris used this mouse to cure cancer.


----------



## v4mp1

Is this coming out this decade.. I doubt it.


----------



## Scorpion667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v4mp1*
> 
> Is this coming out this decade.. I doubt it.


Is _what_ coming out this decade? I don't know what you're talking about


----------



## eXecuution

With the Rival upcoming, this mouse is looking a little bit less relevant... prove us wrong, BT!
AKA release the mouse asap


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXecuution*
> 
> With the Rival upcoming, this mouse is looking a little bit less relevant... prove us wrong, BT!
> AKA release the mouse asap


There have been many mice released in the last few years that are good enough for many people. BST's mouse is (if not already) becoming irrelevant. Some people may still want it because of the shape. With two new sensors released in the last 2 years it is hard to say another 3090 (especially when using the 4000 CPI SROM) is anything special. The 3310 is likely to be the way to go...

I have bought 7 mice since the announcement of BST's project. I am mostly covered with what I have now. The only thing that will make me buy another mouse is a shape that fits me or a better sensor offering. I don't think the Aurora shape would suit my style and the 3090 looks to be on the way out.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There have been many mice released in the last few years that are good enough for many people. BST's mouse is (if not already) becoming irrelevant. Some people may still want it because of the shape. With two new sensors released in the last 2 years it is hard to say another 3090 is anything special. The 3310 is likely to be the way to go...
> 
> I have bought 7 mice since the announcement of BST's project. I am mostly covered with what I have now. The only thing that will make me buy another mouse is a shape that fits me or a better sensor offering. I don't think the Aurora shape would suit my style and the 3090 looks to be on the way out.


I bought just about every single mouse out there thats close to this shape but there is still no good shaped mouse with 2 sidebuttons.
The closed thing I got is the savu but its ergonomic shape, good length and weight however.

Kana v2 is close and going to try that one out, horrible LOD and dont like the 1 big sidebutton.

There is also very shortage of small ambidextrous mice with 2 sidebuttons on left side and NO buttons on right side like raw etc.

Will still preorder the second It goes up.


----------



## r0ach

If he wants this mouse to actually be good, he would release it with the 3500 DPI firmware. The 4000 DPI firmware offers absolutely nothing over the previous one except drastically higher levels of mouse smoothing. There is nothing objectively better about it. If he can somehow adjust the smoothing in the firmware to be equal or lower than the 3500 DPI firmware levels, that would work too, but otherwise, the 4000 DPI firmware is complete garbage compared to previous.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> If he wants this mouse to actually be good, he would release it with the 3500 DPI firmware. The 4000 DPI firmware offers absolutely nothing over the previous one except drastically higher levels of mouse smoothing. There is nothing objectively better about it. If he can somehow adjust the smoothing in the firmware to be equal or lower than the 3500 DPI firmware levels, that would work too, but otherwise, the 4000 DPI firmware is complete garbage compared to previous.


Have you contacted him about this? If not, please do!!! This is the mouse I'm counting on!!!


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Have you contacted him about this? If not, please do!!! This is the mouse I'm counting on!!!


I just made a post in his ESL thread about it. Not sure if it will make any difference.


----------



## Berserker1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> I just made a post in his ESL thread about it. Not sure if it will make any difference.


I asked about latency two months ago, should be good.
http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2479608
http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2479737


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Berserker1*
> 
> I asked about latency two months ago, should be good.


I doubt BST is as picky as people on this forum can be. Likely why he doesn't spend his time posting here like he does at ESR. He likely doesn't know or care much about it. He wouldn't dare offer a 1800 CPI 3090 mouse.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Berserker1*
> 
> I asked about latency two months ago, should be good.
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2479608
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2479737


I don't think so from reading his post. He posts kind of a contradictory statement:

"for example the A9500 almost makes me feel sick with its floaty laggy feeling.. the Aurora is so far away from that its crazy."

The A9500 has pretty low/negligble levels of smoothing or lag. It's only the acceleration that's the problem. The default 4000 DPI Avago 3090 firmware has vastly higher smoothing than A9500.

The specific question that needs to be asked is, has he altered the 4000 DPI firmware smoothing values to make them lower than default.

Or, ask him if the 3200/4000 DPI settings are usable and don't jitter....

If those settings are usable at all, the mouse is obviously screwed since both Razer and Logitech could not release an optical mouse with a usable 3000+ DPI setting until they added crazy excessive amounts of smoothing to the mouse, thus destroying the mouse in the process.

I also have a suspicion that the 4000 DPI firmware doesn't just increase a numeric smoothing value, but also applies some kind of post process correction algorithm as well.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> The A9500 has pretty low/negligble levels of smoothing or lag. It's only the acceleration that's the problem. The default 4000 DPI Avago 3090 firmware has vastly higher smoothing than A9500.
> 
> The specific question that needs to be asked is, has he altered the 4000 DPI firmware smoothing values to make them lower than default.
> 
> Or, ask him if the 3200/4000 DPI settings are usable and don't jitter....
> 
> If those settings are usable at all, the mouse is obviously screwed since both Razer and Logitech could not release an optical mouse with a usable 3000+ DPI setting until they added crazy excessive amounts of smoothing to the mouse, thus destroying the mouse in the process.
> 
> I also have a suspicion that the 4000 DPI firmware doesn't just increase a numeric smoothing value, but also applies some kind of post process correction algorithm as well.


A9500 should be very comparable to current A3090 release, though will variate by frame rate response like I mentioned in your thread. I've personally had time with a modified UGS architecture and frame rate capping at a lower value significantly changes response feel.

I also mentioned data transfer rate being a possible parameter. Capping a lower internal update value and increasing cursor precision at the sake of response.


----------



## vss vintorez

was this mouse released, can i buy it ? any reviews ?


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vss vintorez*
> 
> was this mouse released, can i buy it ? any reviews ?


Nope.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I doubt BST is as picky as people on this forum can be. Likely why he doesn't spend his time posting here like he does at ESR. He likely doesn't know or care much about it. He wouldn't dare offer a 1800 CPI 3090 mouse.


The sum of pickyness by the sum of nerds experts on this forum can not be humanely matched by a single individual. So no, BST can not be as picky as the people on OCN, but he seems to be picky enough given how much time it takes for him to get this right (I guess it is at least part of the reason for the delays).

Since BST is a QL gamer and ESR is the main spot for QL, I think some bit of trust is reasonable. We will see.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Since BST is a QL gamer and ESR is the main spot for QL, I think some bit of trust is reasonable. We will see.


Only problem is I've seen many people on that forum talk about the 4000 DPI a3090 ROM saying when they set their monitor to 60hz, it feels like you're dragging the cursor through quicksand (basically how I describe it too). Then they say when you change the monitor refresh rate to 144hz, it feels good and only like a tiny amount of negative acceleration.

So there seems to be a LARGE gap in usability of these mice with high smoothing (4000 DPI a3090) depending on what refresh rate you use.


----------



## resis

r0ach why you not Beta test it? I guess it's too late. I personally care about 400, 800, 1xxx and not much about 4000dpi, but of course this thing needs to be right if it is part of the sensor.
Do you think it is a software thing?


----------



## v4mp1

Of course it is related to the firmware....


----------



## resis




----------



## Axaion

Zalgo is gonna come before this does, and even if thats not the case, its not going to be what people are hoping for


----------



## v4mp1

Very unprofessional marketing "blablabla mousepad coming soon etc.".

BST do you know Dean Hall? Are you akin to him? I bet!


----------



## Apolladan

lmao remember this


----------



## viowastaken




----------



## eXecuution

Ended up getting a deathadder 2013. Thanks for stringing me along, BST


----------



## hfcobra

I have to say that I am glad I didn't hold out for this mouse.

I'd still really like to own one though.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*


----------



## FoxWolf1

I wonder if something has gone horribly wrong with the production run...

Like, maybe the factory decided to cut some corners on the production mice to reduce costs versus how they were in the sample, or they didn't bother with proper quality control, and now BST is stuck with a load of bad mice.

Of course, the delay could also be due to some entirely different reason...but things like this happen often with outsourced manufacturing.


----------



## WarningHPB




----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hfcobra*
> 
> I have to say that I am glad I didn't hold out for this mouse.
> 
> I'd still really like to own one though.


I still hold on for this mouse.
That being said I buy most other mice that comes out, but If this ever comes out I will buy it no matter what anyway.

In fact If I could I would buy the Quake 3 edition one that was given just because they were the best looking mice ever made.


----------



## resis

There rumor that he puttin' new sensor in. Highly unofficial piece of information, so get your hopes up... or down. As you please.

I hold on to it because there is nothing like it on the horizon, yet. 3.0 design is pushed lately, CM Storm's version is particularly interesting, but I need something G1/G100s/WMO-esque.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> There rumor that he puttin' new sensor in. Highly unofficial piece of information, so get your hopes up... or down. As you please.
> 
> I hold on to it because there is nothing like it on the horizon, yet. 3.0 design is pushed lately, CM Storm's version is particularly interesting, but I need something G1/G100s/WMO-esque.


I think something went during production hence why its delayed again. If he really did decide to switch to the 3310 he would of broken his silence and told us about it but he didn't.


----------



## reddy89

Bummer...really no good light weight mouse out there w/o some flaw.


----------



## hfcobra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I still hold on for this mouse.
> That being said I buy most other mice that comes out, but If this ever comes out I will buy it no matter what anyway.
> 
> In fact If I could I would buy the Quake 3 edition one that was given just because they were the best looking mice ever made.


What I meant by hold on for the mouse was that I did not wait without buying any mice at all for this one to be released. I just went and bought the FK and I plan to buy this once it is released as well. It is the only thing that I think could compete with my FK right now and I have to know which one I like more!









Do you have a picture of the quake 3 edition at all?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hfcobra*
> 
> What I meant by hold on for the mouse was that I did not wait without buying any mice at all for this one to be released. I just went and bought the FK and I plan to buy this once it is released as well. It is the only thing that I think could compete with my FK right now and I have to know which one I like more!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a picture of the quake 3 edition at all?




Could be this one? But it's a mod.


----------



## hfcobra

That does look like it could be the one he was talking about. Looks good but I don't think I'd want any game's logo on my mouse over the company's.









On another note I will still wait patiently for the mouse with my FK for the moment.


----------



## eXecuution

If this does actually come out, I'll definitely be selling my DA2013 to buy this. Probably gonna be a looooong wait though =/


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXecuution*
> 
> If this does actually come out, I'll definitely be selling my DA2013 to buy this. Probably gonna be a looooong wait though =/


There's a comically low chance of that happening. Even if you disregard the constantly pushed deadlines he is now MIA for like one month to boot. - The month of which he said the mice would be shipped to the buyers doors too by the way...


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *hfcobra*
> 
> What I meant by hold on for the mouse was that I did not wait without buying any mice at all for this one to be released. I just went and bought the FK and I plan to buy this once it is released as well. It is the only thing that I think could compete with my FK right now and I have to know which one I like more!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a picture of the quake 3 edition at all?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could be this one? But it's a mod.
Click to expand...

Ye those were the once I was after.

The glossy one is just so sexy


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *eXecuution*
> 
> If this does actually come out, I'll definitely be selling my DA2013 to buy this. Probably gonna be a looooong wait though =/
> 
> 
> 
> There's a comically low chance of that happening. Even if you disregard the constantly pushed deadlines he is now MIA for like one month to boot. - The month of which he said the mice would be shipped to the buyers doors too by the way...
Click to expand...

Ye I agree.

I have no hopes or anything really, If it happens It happens kinda


----------



## hfcobra

He might be MIA but he does still log on to his profile from time to time. Last log on was about a week ago.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hfcobra*
> 
> He might be MIA but he does still log on to his profile from time to time. Last log on was about a week ago.


He reads the posts, to draw inspiration from the haters.


----------



## Coreda

Mouse to be bundled with HL3 confirmed







Really hope it sees some release, we won't bite - promise.

The only thing that stands out about his mouse negatively to me is the inset grooves on the body. Would make cleaning the top less easy as it appears dirt would be able to get stuck there, similar to the edge gap in the casing of most console controllers.


----------



## ich1ban

By the time this comes out, half of the people here on these forums will probably be 40 with kids and could care less about the mouse.


----------



## xmr1

To be honest I don't understand what all the hype was about anyway. Seems like a pretty standard mouse. People just love the shape I guess?


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> To be honest I don't understand what all the hype was about anyway. Seems like a pretty standard mouse. People just love the shape I guess?


For me the shape with 2 sidebuttons on left side only.
There is just no mice like that on the market.

The last one was G3 with 1 sidebutton on left and no on right.


----------



## Hyde00

^ Yeah basically what he said.

There is simply no mouse on the market right now that's small symmetrical design with side buttons.

You either get a small 3 button mouse with no side buttons, or a mouse with side buttons but too large.


----------



## resis

^ Pretty much all of this.


----------



## CorruptBE

And...

The so called close to perfect sensor performance in that type of shape.


----------



## wmoftw

People think the project is dead but didn't he receive 50K from investor(s)? Who knows if he spent all of it, but I would be really surprised if he decided to just cancel all of this and kill the project. What is he going to do about the money he owes?


----------



## jouzeroff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> People think the project is dead but didn't he receive 50K from investor(s)? Who knows if he spent all of it, but I would be really surprised if he decided to just cancel all of this and kill the project. What is he going to do about the money he owes?


This mouse is a joke for now.
Nothing official! Absolutly nothing!


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jouzeroff*
> 
> This mouse is a joke for now.
> Nothing official! Absolutly nothing!


Yes but I don't think people should assume it's dead. We know he had investor(s), so there's clearly money owing. I rather release *something* and make the money back then release nothing and be in debt.

Of course we don't know how much he used or if he used any at all, so who knows.


----------



## thuNDa

if they invest in the product, and it fails why ever, he ows them nothing.
it's not like he got a credit from the bank for himself.


----------



## Susiria

practically confirmed dead


----------



## nyshak

By who? You got any source for that? ESR posts by anonymous don't count by the way.


----------



## Axaion

Duke nukem forever syndrome..

Whever hes getting close to be able to release it, its so outdated that he feels the massive need to replace everything and start over


----------



## CorruptBE

Oh boy and we all know how awesome Duke Nukem Forever was when it got released...


----------



## Axaion

Oh yeah, it lived up to my expectations and then some!


----------



## Coreda

Hey, it's clearly a labor of love. Best we can do is encourage him to release a version soonish rather than later


----------



## ronal

I hope bst didn't decide to pull the plug on this project eventhough its been forever and still nothing.


----------



## MrFerrari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Duke nukem forever syndrome..
> 
> Whever hes getting close to be able to release it, its so outdated that he feels the massive need to replace everything and start over


But wasn't it canceled thanks to the 3090 going out of production?


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> Hey, it's clearly a labor of love. Best we can do is encourage him to release a version soonish rather than later


few years late for that, lol


----------



## MichaelA

There is no offial info about this project. hope bst dont abort it


----------



## kaingosu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichaelA*
> 
> There is no offial info about this project


Exactly! I guess that says it all


----------



## xmr1

Yeah, with the way he apparently dropped off the face of the earth as the ETA was approaching I think it's pretty safe to assume this thing is never coming out. Either he got abducted by aliens or (more likely) he gave up on the project and rather than facing the music from everyone he decided to tuck his tail between his legs and go into hiding. Just my opinion, but probably for the best that a guy like that won't be profiting off the community.


----------



## Scorpion667

Safe to say we all got trolled by the best.

" New gaming mouse development (2759 comments)
( Forum: HW)
Posted by »bst @ 01:24 EDT, *26 October 2011* - iMsg
"


----------



## acid_reptile

Not even 4 years.


----------



## illwill

derp
it was never going to come out because it would be too damaging to the industry of companies like logitech, razer, steelseries
and also another reason i am not going to get into


----------



## discoprince

the only time this thread should make it back to the top of the page

is when the mouse gets released.


----------



## reddy89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> the only time this thread should make it back to the top of the page
> 
> is when the mouse gets released.


So never? lol

Honestly, there are some shapes that are really good and lightweight from the major companies. But they are just executed wrong. Hopefully we'll see some tweaks to the existing lightweight mice.


----------



## trhead

bst we need you. Release this thing and get rich


----------



## discoprince

i remember this thread.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

the duke nukem mouse


----------



## Nivity

I had fun playing the DKNF
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> the duke nukem mouse


That is ok, that means I will someday get a hold of this mouse


----------



## zergrush

Dunno what happened to him but hopefully he comes through with the product
FREE BST


----------



## Scorpion667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zergrush*
> 
> Dunno what happened to him but hopefully he comes through with the product
> FREE BST


What happened to who? Who's BST? /sarcasm


----------



## Skar

Is this even still alive?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skar*
> 
> Is this even still alive?


No... BST has disappeared off the face of the mouse using earth.


----------



## Scorpion667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> No... BST has disappeared off the face of the mouse using earth.


What if BST never existed
What if this is one big troll fest organized by Logitech?


----------



## MrFerrari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> No... BST has disappeared off the face of the mouse using earth.


Is he NwAvGuy?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> What if BST never existed
> What if this is one big troll fest organized by Logitech?


I doubt it. I've followed the BST mouse stuff for quite a while, and to be honest, I don't blame the guy for disappearing. This thing snowballed into the second coming of Christ in the form of a mouse. There were so many unrealistic expectations around this thing. It was supposed to be everything to everybody. There's no way it could have EVER been successful.


----------



## Coreda

Perhaps he couldn't get the manufacturing side of things worked out. Who knows. There are already mice out there that please people, so it's not the worst loss.


----------



## Scorpion667

Or what if he's waiting until Quake [edit] 5 releases, to brand it as the "official mouse" or something?

Or maybe he knocked up a prostitute and he's in a huge legal battle

BST dissapeared
B.....1
S....2
T....3

HALFLIFE 3 CONFIRMED


----------



## MrFerrari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> Or what if he's waiting until Quake 4 releases, to brand it as the "official mouse" or something?
> 
> Or maybe he knocked up a prostitute and he's in a huge legal battle
> 
> BST dissapeared
> B.....1
> S....2
> T....3
> 
> HALFLIFE 3 CONFIRMED


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_4
It was 9 years ago bro..


----------



## Scorpion667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrFerrari*
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_4
> It was 9 years ago bro..


Typo
cheers BST! Glad to see you're back!!!
any updates on the mouse?


----------



## teeg

It'd be nice to know if it's either a troll, if it's not being released, or if it is being released.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

No one knows. This thread really should be locked. The first post on this thread links to the forum that he used to communicate with the community in.

BST just went silent. It's most likely dead. The mouse was going to use a flawed sensor (3090 with smoothing) anyways.

Unless he can get his hands on the 3366 sensor, the mouse would likely be a flop anyways.


----------



## teeg

Anyone have any idea where he got the Aurora shell from?

I think it's a near ideal shape for FPS and I'd like to try fitting a G502 sensor into it.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teeg*
> 
> Anyone have any idea where he got the Aurora shell from?
> 
> I think it's a near ideal shape for FPS and I'd like to try fitting a G502 sensor into it.


He could just make a profit selling a mouse shell for different mouse PCBs


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> BST just went silent. It's most likely dead. The mouse was going to use a flawed sensor (3090 with smoothing) anyways. Unless he can get his hands on the 3366 sensor, the mouse would likely be a flop anyways.


Hehe, just keep moving that goal post a little further out.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> Hehe, just keep moving that goal post a little further out.


The problem is that there wasn't a better sensor available at the time.

I haven't tried it yet, but according to other people the 3366 is finally a valid replacement for the MLT04.


----------



## Nivity

I still want that glossy quakemouse he made for an event.

It is so sexy It's stupid ;>


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teeg*
> 
> It'd be nice to know if it's either a troll, if it's not being released, or if it is being released.


it's no troll, he send samples to a couple of people already some month ago.


----------



## ronal

I was really looking forward to mouse but looks like its a dead project now unless, BST has something up his sleeve and it waiting for the finished project before informing the community.


----------



## teeg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> it's no troll, he send samples to a couple of people already some month ago.


I was only able to find this video in terms of a review of the mouse? Upload date is March 14, 2014, but still no info from bst?


----------



## Derp

That video is old, probably a reupload.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teeg*
> 
> I was only able to find this video in terms of a review of the mouse? Upload date is March 14, 2014, but still no info from bst?


i mean it's no troll, but project is dead now anyways.


----------



## Scorpion667

I just preordered mine! WOOO


----------



## karod

You are exactly 1 month to late for april fools joke.


----------



## discoprince

i doubt this thing will get released unless hes developed a sensor just as good as the G502 sensor.
he planned the released with a 3090 4000dpi, which now (or has been according to folks on here), isnt that good.
no point to even bother with it at this point.


----------



## resis

Man, I want this shape with side buttons and good sensor. I use the old logitecs at work and always hate the fact that those super cheap mice are superior in shape to the expensive gaming mice that I use. What the ...


----------



## teeg

Repost,

But if anyone knows the shell he's using for this mouse I'd like to put a G502 sensor in it and sell them


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teeg*
> 
> Repost,
> 
> But if anyone knows the shell he's using for this mouse I'd like to put a G502 sensor in it and sell them


Its an oem shell and you're best bet is to buy a I-Rocks 7810R mouse on ebay and take it apart. Hope this helps.


----------



## teeg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Its an oem shell and you're best bet is to buy a I-Rocks 7810R mouse on ebay and take it apart. Hope this helps.


That's the exact shell, just needs stripping and rubber coating, etc.

I'll get to work once it arrives, thanks!


----------



## nyshak

Don't you have to mod the PCB to accomplish that?


----------



## Ice009

Did anyone actually give BST any money? If not, then that is OK if he decided to abandon the project. It's his money and with these new sensors and mice out, I don't think it would have been worth it.


----------



## Yahar

seems like bst is back in business


----------



## Sencha

To save people searching
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> Ok I'm just going to keep this simple, I could explain every little detail about why I went AWOL but the reality is it just comes down to a few points. Its really a combination of things and not just one reason.
> 
> Firstly, my investors told me they didn't want to buy the mice in (they were finished and have been finished for a long time now), they said it was bad timing and that I would have to wait. I wanted to come back quite a long time ago with some definite news and that just ruined it completely. I made the decision to just remain quiet until I definitely had the necessary funds. People may ask why I didn't just go with crowd funding, but I don't want to take peoples money without having proven myself first, and gained some trust (putting it really simply).
> 
> Secondly was myself, I had just burned myself out. Thats putting it really simply again, but I was becoming sick of working on something for so long and not being able to just release the damn thing. I was also getting tired of the whole nitpicking thing that gamers do, not that I'm not one of those people myself, its hard to explain but it was that coupled with it being over-hyped that put a lot of pressure on me, like I say I don't really know how to explain it other than it burned me out. I have too much of a perfectionist attitude to everything that I do and I end up overloading myself. I really do envy people who can just say "that'll do". Its not just with my mice, I do it with other things like my maps too.
> 
> Why didn't I say anything - main reason was being sick of coming back with more vague information. I mean what difference does it really make, if you think I've died, or I say "I don't know when its going to be released, if ever". Its the same thing really since the two things are equally vague and disappointing.
> 
> I could write more but I don't want to write a huge post full of excuses and I'm sure most people wouldn't want to read it.
> 
> However, all that aside, I have the funds to buy the mice and pads in now, and since I already have the sensors, I might as well order the mice. I know there are new sensors out, but I still think the A3090 is a decent sensor and its not like I'm going to charge the earth for the mouse.
> 
> I'm ordering them regardless of what people think because I promised that I would release it and I want to fulfil that promise. It just feels wrong not to.
> 
> I will come back with a proper release date when I have one, I only started talking to the factory about it again this week, so I'm unsure about when it will be at the moment.
> 
> I want to end with an apology for being a total dick head, not because I'm trying to placate everyone, I'm not "marketing" I am genuinely sorry about it.


----------



## Ino.

If they really release I'm still buying one just for the effort


----------



## dippidy




----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> If they really release I'm still buying one just for the effort


If we makes enough money, I would like to see a totally original/new mold and a 3310 (something like that or better). I have idea about the shape, but it's different than the small mouse shell he is using at the moment.


----------



## tjangel07

Best of luck to bst. I'm glad he came back.


----------



## DivineDark

Sold!


----------



## viowastaken

Quote:


> Originally Posted by bst
> I will come back with a proper release date when I have one, I only started talking to the factory about it again this week, so I'm unsure about when it will be at the moment.


Some part of me feels like bst is the best troll on the entire internet, and this is him breaking his own previous world record.

I remember being psyched for the release of this mouse.... in 2011...


----------



## CorruptBE

Investors saying it's not a good time?

How about now... Looks at Zowie FK1, Avior 7000, etc









Your mouse has more competition now then it would've had 1 year ago.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Hasn't the mouse been sent out to a bunch of testers? Have they put up reviews anywhere?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Hasn't the mouse been sent out to a bunch of testers? Have they put up reviews anywhere?


I thought I read somewhere that they were holding off impressions until BST gave them a more final product. They were supposedly pretty early prototypes.

I did see a couple pros actually using it in competition to this day. So, I'm not really sure the validity of that conversation.


----------



## Nivity

Still gonna buy it 3090 or not.
Not a single 3310 mouse out there that I actually enjoy.
Roccat military only one with a half decent shape for me.

But prefer the ambi flat with 2 sidebuttons left side only that still does not exist for some stupid reason.


----------



## popups

*@Nivity*

Because most people don't want a small, flat, lightweight, symmetrical mouse with only one side having buttons,.

if people want a very light mouse why have side buttons at all?

Have you tried all four 3310 mice out there?


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> *@Nivity*
> 
> Because most people don't want a small, flat, lightweight, symmetrical mouse with only one side having buttons,.
> 
> if people want a very light mouse why have side buttons at all?
> 
> Have you tried all four 3310 mice out there?


This mouse wasn't so widely anticipated for its sensor or switches or anything. It was the shape and everything you mentioned about it. For a lot of us that is the ideal description of a mouse and at the moment nothing comes close to filling that void. Maybe one day there will be a G102.


----------



## Crizzl

The only review I've found is this: http://www.esreality.com/post/2173191/new-gaming-mouse-development/#pid2463061


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I agree with the others about the shape. The shape + buttons are what I'm looking forward to. A lot of mice are completely ruled out for me because they don't have side buttons or the shape/weight is bad.

The fact that is has a sensor that r0ach says is worse than the 3310 and 3366 is pretty unappealing.


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *viowastaken*
> 
> Some part of me feels like bst is the best troll on the entire internet, and this is him breaking his own previous world record.
> 
> I remember being psyched for the release of this mouse.... in 2011...


The sad thing is that it really isn't unlikely.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> The sad thing is that it really isn't unlikely.


Except that he's actually produced a product. There are CS pros actually using the Ninox Aurora prototype. Actually, after reading a good deal of this thread, I don't blame BST at all for going MIA. How do you make a product with this much hype that will even come close to living up to this communities expectations? At this point, it has a FAR better chance of failing in most people's eyes than succeeding. It's been built up to be the end all be all of mice. I've seen the nit-picks that some people can come up with on fantastic mice... I don't envy any small company trying to make something to appease us.


----------



## popups

*@DivineDark*

Are you referring to Glockateer? I wouldn't call him a Pro. He doesn't have the 3090 version.

I think people at ESR hyped the mouse way too much.

Some OC users can have high standards.

I am no longer excited about this 3090 mouse. I am excited about the mouse pads he could make. It would be nice to have something like a large Hayate, with even directional friction, in multiple colors (I prefer red), with a small logo (if any),

My red Hien has been stained with PTFE from mouse feet. I don't know if it will come out by washing it. So I need new mouse pads if it doesn't.


----------



## DivineDark

Sorry... Completely my mistake. It wasn't cs pros that were using it. It was quake players. I just remember reading it on a pro hardware spreadsheet. I know very little about the quake competitive scene... Linkje and h8m3 both use ninox mice.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I agree with the others about the shape. The shape + buttons are what I'm looking forward to. A lot of mice are completely ruled out for me because they don't have side buttons or the shape/weight is bad.
> 
> The fact that is has a sensor that r0ach says is worse than the 3310 and 3366 is pretty unappealing.


Depends on implementation/firmware I think. But comparing with the Kana v2 for example:

Kana v2: Massive smoothing, selecting a single pixel on the desktop is somewhat hard
Avior 7000/Zowie FK1: You can still feel some processing, but it's really little, selecting a single pixel on the desktop is not a hard task, much better, doesn't seem to affect sensor accuracy as much anymore.
Deathadder 3G: "imma just dance from pixel to pixel every single time you just so much as twitch a hair on your mousepad" ---> Responsiveness of "The Gods"
Though these are my personal experiences, but I think this is somewhat what r0ach has been preaching about for such a long time.

Zowie FK1 is my main mouse atm, shape + max tracking > everything else, but if BST's manages to get responsiveness up to DA 3G level or close, I will be interested.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Depends on implementation/firmware I think. But comparing with the Kana v2 for example:
> 
> Kana v2: Massive smoothing, selecting a single pixel on the desktop is somewhat hard
> Avior 7000/Zowie FK1: You can still feel some processing, but it's really little, selecting a single pixel on the desktop is not a hard task, much better, doesn't seem to affect sensor accuracy as much anymore.
> Deathadder 3G: "imma just dance from pixel to pixel every single time you just so much as twitch a hair on your mousepad" ---> Responsiveness of "The Gods"
> Though these are my personal experiences, but I think this is somewhat what r0ach has been preaching about for such a long time.
> 
> Zowie FK1 is my main mouse atm, shape + max tracking > everything else, but if BST's manages to get responsiveness up to DA 3G level or close, I will be interested.


Have you used the DA2013?

So in your opinion the DA3G is significantly better than the Avior7000/FK1? Have you used a 9000FPS MLT04? Would you say the DA3G is as good or better?

You opt to use the FK1 over the DA3G because you prefer the FK1's shape over the DA3G's superior tracking?

I couldn't feel any processing with the Avior7000 on the desktop. But in FPS games I could definitely feel it.


----------



## CorruptBE

Never bothered with intelli/WMO mice since I can't use anything that malfunctions earlier then 4 m/s. Back in those days I was using a MX300 or MX510.

The main reason why I use the FK1 is, well u guessed it, shape and with the 3310 it's doable.


----------



## hfcobra

Personally I would really like to have this mouse. The lightweight frame and amazing shape with Omrons make it really high up on my list (shape is the most important factor to me). I think that I will wait for BST to release one with a 3366 sensor though. I hope that he springs for that one at least. The 3310 is already in many good mice and he could be one of the first with the 3366 sensor. I think it would sell better and be a much better mouse overall.

Besides, I have an FK right now and I think I am going to get the FK1 for my 3310 sensor. I don't expect Zowie to make a new mouse every time a new sensor comes out and since the 3366 is barely any better than the 3310 I would be very surprised if they decided to release a mouse for both.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hfcobra*
> 
> Personally I would really like to have this mouse. The lightweight frame and amazing shape with Omrons make it really high up on my list (shape is the most important factor to me). I think that I will wait for BST to release one with a 3366 sensor though. I hope that he springs for that one at least. The 3310 is already in many good mice and he could be one of the first with the 3366 sensor. I think it would sell better and be a much better mouse overall.
> 
> Besides, I have an FK right now and I think I am going to get the FK1 for my 3310 sensor. I don't expect Zowie to make a new mouse every time a new sensor comes out and since the 3366 is barely any better than the 3310 I would be very surprised if they decided to release a mouse for both.


The 3366 is exclusive to Logitch, as they co-developed the sensor with Pixart.


----------



## Nivity

I am not to picky with sensors.
Yeah the 3366 is great and all.
3310 is just as good for me, minimal difference does not make up for shape,weight etc for me.

I do just fine with 3090 sensor aswell, and bsts shell is still the only one of its kind.
Would still use a 3090 ninox over any other mouse I tried if shell feels as good as it looks to me (perfect in every single way)


----------



## hfcobra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> The 3366 is exclusive to Logitch, as they co-developed the sensor with Pixart.


Oh I see. I heard that it really only offers higher perfect control speeds (not needed), more FPS, and less smoothing. I was under the assumtion that the 3310 had none so I can't imagine it would be much better.









What does mouse FPS affect? Is having more than 6500 like on the 3310 really necessary?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I am not to picky with sensors.
> Yeah the 3366 is great and all.
> 3310 is just as good for me, minimal difference does not make up for shape,weight etc for me.
> 
> I do just fine with 3090 sensor aswell, and bsts shell is still the only one of its kind.
> Would still use a 3090 ninox over any other mouse I tried if shell feels as good as it looks to me (perfect in every single way)


You make a lot of sense. I think that I will buy the Aurora when it comes out and decide between the FK and the Aurora which one I like more. Then I will buy the 3310 version of whichever mouse I like more.









The FK1 is slightly bigger and feels more like a Xai from what I read so I am sure I'd like that one as well. Mostly for the extra width, which the Aurora has more than the FK1.

It's still hard to decide! I want to try them all lol.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hfcobra*
> 
> Besides, I have an FK right now and I think I am going to get the FK1 for my 3310 sensor. I don't expect Zowie to make a new mouse every time a new sensor comes out and since the 3366 is barely any better than the 3310 I would be very surprised if they decided to release a mouse for both.


I'm starting to think that atm Logitech has exclusive rights to the 3366... that or it's a rather expensive sensor (production cost wise).


----------



## Erecshyrinol

What does the current shell for this mouse look like? The original thread has plenty of pictures, what did he settle on?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> What does the current shell for this mouse look like? The original thread has plenty of pictures, what did he settle on?


http://www.esreality.com/post/2487925/new-gaming-mouse-development-pt-2/


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I do just fine with 3090 sensor aswell, and bsts shell is still the only one of its kind.
> Would still use a 3090 ninox over any other mouse I tried if shell feels as good as it looks to me (perfect in every single way)


A 3090 done right can be just as fine as a 3310 tbh, well at least at lower dpi levels (400, 800, 1600?).


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> A 3090 done right can be just as fine as a 3310 tbh, well at least at lower dpi levels (400, 800, 1600?).


If there was an SROM that only had 800 and 1600 it would be just as good. However, that isn't the case.


----------



## resis

Shame it's still the 3090, but anwyay.

I am still using the AM, there is just no replacement for me. The FK is nice, but the shape and slippery coating are stressing, the AM just works, but the Ninox shape is better, plus the DA coating, plus the better switches and more sensor options. There is not going to be another mouse with specs like this in the near future. All hail for independent developers.


----------



## nyshak

Hope it has not been posted yet. Video review here: http://www.twitch.tv/l1nkinql/b/553118942


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Hope it has not been posted yet. Video review here: http://www.twitch.tv/l1nkinql/b/553118942


This guy seems pretty clueless...


----------



## ronal

The mold looks pretty bad imo.


----------



## povohat

Looks good, I'm still down to get a couple.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This guy seems pretty clueless...


You're trolling or you don't know who he is.


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> You're trolling or you don't know who he is.


Why would he be trolling? The guy thought a max speed of 0.22m/s was absolutely fine until people in the chat told him otherwise.


----------



## dcdd

I mean.. being good at Quake doesn't make you an expert for mice.

I'm just glad bst didn't die or anything. If he ever releases his mouse I'm gonna get me one just for the sake of it..


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> Why would he be trolling? The guy thought a max speed of 0.22m/s was absolutely fine until people in the chat told him otherwise.


Exactly.


----------



## resis

C'mon, a max speed of 0.22m/s is fine... if you're clueless.


----------



## Merenix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> C'mon, a max speed of 0.22m/s is fine... if you're clueless.


lol


----------



## nyshak

You're clueless if you think this is a technical review - its not. Link plays with 42cm/360 without accel ingame according to his cfg. And he owns with the mouse and it shows no flaws ingame. He doesn't have to test the mouse with enotus or has to understand how to use the tool. That is not the point of the video. I thought this was obvious but no...

All this video is meant to show you is how the mouse performs ingame under his settings for him. And it performs well. Take it or leave it.


----------



## Derp

I'm ecstatic to see this project still in motion. Hopefully it will be a success in the end.


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> You're clueless if you think this is a technical review - its not. Link plays with 42cm/360 without accel ingame according to his cfg. And he owns with the mouse and it shows no flaws ingame. He doesn't have to test the mouse with enotus or has to understand how to use the tool. That is not the point of the video. I thought this was obvious but no...
> 
> All this video is meant to show you is how the mouse performs ingame under his settings for him. And it performs well. Take it or leave it.


I think it would have been more obvious if he only played a couple of games with it and didn't try to test it using enotus. I think that calling it a review may have led me to believe that it was going to be technical and that he understands how to use this tool he is "reviewing". What kind of term is "technical review" anyways?


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Hope it has not been posted yet. Video review here: http://www.twitch.tv/l1nkinql/b/553118942


I'm sure his max speed is that low due to his mousepad. The 3090 likes solid color pads, not multi-colored, logo plastered ones.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> I'm sure his max speed is that low due to his mousepad. The 3090 likes solid color pads, not multi-colored, logo plastered ones.


just for clarification: the mouse didn't get only 0.22m/s in enotus of course, he had just moved it wrong and not fast enough.
then he tried it a bit faster and it went to ~2m/s in enotus, but still it wasn't properly tested for max speed.


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> just for clarification: the mouse didn't get only 0.22m/s in enotus of course, he had just moved it wrong and not fast enough.
> then he tried it a bit faster and it went to ~2m/s in enotus, but still it wasn't properly tested for max speed.


Yeah i saw that he hit 2 m/s, and I agree, wasn't tested properly. Just pointed that out as every 3090 mouse i've used has had tracking and max speed issues (much lower) when paired with a multi colored pad.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> Yeah i saw that he hit 2 m/s, and I agree, wasn't tested properly. Just pointed that out as every 3090 mouse i've used has had tracking and max speed issues (much lower) when paired with a multi colored pad.


He only tries enotus because he is asked to in chat. And yes, he doen't know how to use it. I guess the video only makes sense if you know who he is and look at his config to get a grip on his settings in Quake live. TBH, to me this "review" means more than if the mouse would hit 4m/sec in enotus. That does not mean it should not be reviewed in that way too.

Somebody will do that in the future I'm sure







Until then we have to take bsts word for it - I think his samples hit around 4m/sec on the lowest DPI step.


----------



## Scorpion667

Just saw this at Best Buy. I'll wait for proper reviews first..


----------



## wmoftw

go easy on l1nkin, he's a good player but not that tech savvy. there's some great players who don't understand crap about computing, and don't want to learn either. don't assume a pro knows about that kind of stuff, most don't and just use whatever is comfortable and works. some are like the people here who care about sensor performance, but don't assume all pros do or that they even care, a lot don't.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> Just saw this at Best Buy. I'll wait for proper reviews first..


U WOT M8?

Bst's mouse available in Best Buy?


----------



## Nilizum

Bst mouse at bestbuy? Ok. i need to get some rest


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion667*
> 
> Just saw this at Best Buy. I'll wait for proper reviews first..


Too bad you did not.


----------



## Scorpion667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Too bad you did not.


Isn't it?


----------



## Skar

I picked up the irocks model. dont get what the fuzz is about with that shape tbh, but maybe its just not for me.


----------



## trhead

This one should be slightly different I think, but yeah its just a basic shape nothing fancy. Its basically a mouse for the fans of discontinued small Logi mice, and people who want something small and light with a good sensor.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dippidy*


That pretty much expresses how I feel right now.

Glad BST got things in order, I will still get one just because having an "enthusiast" run mouse manufacturer with a presence on the market would be freaking awesome.
It just would have been nice if he had given a "stuck in negotiations" message instead of nothing.


----------



## Phos

Rather interested in this if it really is as Diamondback like as it appears. I have a hard time finding comfortable mice due to my fingers being more than half the length of my hands.


----------



## resis

Cmon BST, Unreal Tournament 4 alpha is going on. I need this mouse.


----------



## vinzbe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> Rather interested in this if it really is as Diamondback like as it appears. I have a hard time finding comfortable mice due to my fingers being more than half the length of my hands.


Why not try a (Big) Salmosa?


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vinzbe*
> 
> Why not try a (Big) Salmosa?


No thumb buttons, and I'm pretty sure large salmosas have been out of production for as long as the diamondback. Looking at it, it has the coke bottle pinch, which is no good for me. For ambidextrous mice they need to be "beetle shaped", possible with low cut outs. Been interested in trying the epicgear cyclopse but only way to get that in the US is eBay.

A thought: include/sell "blanks" for the side buttons not being used.


----------



## povohat

bst did his own 'proper' enotus test on the ninox atmos pad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXwKBg8QN0I


----------



## jsx3

If you want to consider enotus a proper source for that kind of thing


----------



## CorruptBE

I consider Enotus "proper" when the majority of people get similar results imo. It's a handy tool but by no means 100% reliable.


----------



## povohat

Mousetester results

http://esreality.com/post/2487925/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-2/#pid2656508


----------



## povohat

http://esreality.com/post/2487925/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-2/#pid2663347
Quote:


> Sorry I was away for a few days, but I've got the site finished now, its not up yet because I still need to check on a couple of things regarding the release date, also the photos on there really suck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but other than that all I need to do is press the "go" button.
> 
> Also I made the prices in Euros only, and the price is a little higher at €37.99 (€31.66 ex tax) for the mouse, but thats because the exchange rate is different now, and that price translates to £29.99 or $44.99.
> 
> The site won't charge sales tax if you order from outside the EC, so if you're lucky you can get the mouse cheaper if it just goes through customs.
> 
> The prices for delivery are a flat rate (any quantity):
> UK: €5
> EC: €10
> Rest of world: €15
> 
> I'll post on facebook/twitter/newsletter (see first post for links) when the site is up. Can't announce it here, sorry


----------



## turnschuh

2-3€ more won't harm anyone i think.

Just a shame that the big mousepad wont be available with the mouse yet.
Would save some of the shipping costs. =)


----------



## TK421

15euro shipping?

What...


----------



## resis

Pricing is somewhat steep, indeed. For a no-name brand people are going to be skeptical.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Pricing is somewhat steep, indeed. For a no-name brand people are going to be skeptical.


I mean the shipping costs, they're absurd for potential SEA/AU buyers.

This mouse is made in china, if he intends to sell the mouse in the SEA/AU region then it should he delivered from china, don't waste resources (and the customer's money) shipping the mouse elsewhere in the EU and reship it back to SEA/AU, it takes up resources and is completely unnecessary.


----------



## vinzbe

Actually, from past experience I think it's wise to avoid sending directly from factory to customers provided he does some QA.


----------



## Nivity

Dont give a damn.
Gonna buy one and pay the 15euro shipping anyway.
Because I need to


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Dont give a damn.
> Gonna buy one and pay the 15euro shipping anyway.
> Because I need to


I can't wait to order one.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

I can't believe this mouse is actually happening.

I almost feel bad about it. Almost like it should have stayed a thing of legend.


----------



## DivineDark

I'm definitely looking forward to it. However, I am just hoping that it is good enough to fulfill expectations. People have waited for this thing for so long, that expectations are going to be hard to meet. That's a lot of weight to carry for one dude. I feel for BST. He's in a real tough spot. If he releases it and people find flaws (and they will) he's gonna catch hell. If he doesn't release it at all, he's gonna catch hell.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> I'm definitely looking forward to it. However, I am just hoping that it is good enough to fulfill expectations. People have waited for this thing for so long, that expectations are going to be hard to meet. That's a lot of weight to carry for one dude. I feel for BST. He's in a real tough spot. If he releases it and people find flaws (and they will) he's gonna catch hell. If he doesn't release it at all, he's gonna catch hell.


He's filling a niche, that's what's really important. Ambidextrous and pretty flat looking mouse, seems to me only Avior competes in this category.

Bit too long for my personal (and extremely specific) taste, but it seems to me he's hit a jackpot here. The only thing that can go wrong now is the potential for smoothing -- and faulty hardware, of course.

What's he putting in there? Omrons?


----------



## DivineDark

Not sure. I didn't see the switch spec. I couldn't imagine he's going for Huano.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> He's filling a niche, that's what's really important. Ambidextrous and pretty flat looking mouse, seems to me only Avior competes in this category.
> 
> Bit too long for my personal (and extremely specific) taste, but it seems to me he's hit a jackpot here. The only thing that can go wrong now is the potential for smoothing -- and faulty hardware, of course.
> 
> What's he putting in there? Omrons?


FK1 is arguably better.


----------



## maximdymok

I'm interested.. shape doesn't look too good though. I might still get this though as it's so lightweight and has a good sensor. Gonna have to see some reviews first though.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maximdymok*
> 
> and has a good sensor.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2/0_50


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2/0_50


Yeah... Let's link a Roach thread...


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> Yeah... Let's link a Roach thread...


4000 CPI 3090 smoothing is something a lot of non-insects noticed too.

I own a mouse with that particular iteration of the sensor. Can't say I notice any delay, but I'm using a '13 AMVA panel, so input lag is something I'm already accustomed to. Plus the mouse is heavy, so it always feels laggy anyway. Anyway, if I plug in my CRT, the input lag is so much lower that I could use any mouse and still be ahead in comparison to the AMVA. These kinds of things are something only people thoroughly accustomed to CRT and TN can notice.

It gets weird when Roach claims 3310 is even worse than 3090 in terms of smoothing though -- since he's the only person to date that I've heard complain about that in particular with 3310 mice.


----------



## DivineDark

I have a lot of mice with that particular iteration of that sensor, and have yet to find anything I would call "smoothing".


----------



## maximdymok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2/0_50


Well, IDK..
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> 4000 CPI 3090 smoothing is something a lot of non-insects noticed too.
> 
> I own a mouse with that particular iteration of the sensor. Can't say I notice any delay, but I'm using a '13 AMVA panel, so input lag is something I'm already accustomed to. Plus the mouse is heavy, so it always feels laggy anyway. Anyway, if I plug in my CRT, the input lag is so much lower that I could use any mouse and still be ahead in comparison to the AMVA. These kinds of things are something only people thoroughly accustomed to CRT and TN can notice.
> 
> It gets weird when Roach claims 3310 is even worse than 3090 in terms of smoothing though -- since he's the only person to date that I've heard complain about that in particular with 3310 mice.


So can you only feel the smoothing at 4000CPI? Personally I use 400 and a CRT, and don't really feel any delay on the crappy sensor of the Kinzu v2.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maximdymok*
> 
> Well, IDK..
> So can you only feel the smoothing at 4000CPI? Personally I use 400 and a CRT, and don't really feel any delay on the crappy sensor of the Kinzu v2.


No, apparently, you can feel it at all CPI settings.

Don't ask me though, I don't notice it for reasons stated. Besides, I dislike the mouse in general, so I don't care particularly.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maximdymok*
> 
> Well, IDK..
> So can you only feel the smoothing at 4000CPI? Personally I use 400 and a CRT, and don't really feel any delay on the crappy sensor of the Kinzu v2.


No. The theory is, in order to minimize jitter for higher DPI settings, they implemented an algorithm that artificially stabilizes the cursor. However, it affects the entire DPI range.

I have no doubt that something like that exists. However, I have never experienced it. Every mouse feels different to me. Even ones with the same sensor and SROM. Personally, I think it's a bunch of overblown non-sense.


----------



## maximdymok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> No. The theory is, in order to minimize jitter for higher DPI settings, they implemented an algorithm that artificially stabilizes the cursor. However, it affects the entire DPI range.
> 
> I have no doubt that something like that exists. However, I have never experienced it. Every mouse feels different to me. Even ones with the same sensor and SROM. Personally, I think it's a bunch of overblown non-sense.


Well, that might be worth thinking about, but yea, I doubt I would notice it too.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> He's filling a niche, that's what's really important. Ambidextrous and pretty flat looking mouse, seems to me only Avior competes in this category.
> 
> Bit too long for my personal (and extremely specific) taste, but it seems to me he's hit a jackpot here. The only thing that can go wrong now is the potential for smoothing -- and faulty hardware, of course.
> 
> What's he putting in there? Omrons?
> 
> 
> 
> FK1 is arguably better.
Click to expand...

Except for the fact that its:
1. Larget
2. Abit heavier
3. Stupid idiotic huanos
4. Sidebuttons on right side which is useless unless you are lefthanded, you cannot even use both sides at once on zowies mice

Sensor wise yepp the FK1 is better, on every single other point Its worse for my needs.

Avior is also not even close, big ass mouse with stupid dual sidebuttons.

The ONLY potential equal to this mouse is the new logitech g302 because Its smaller, hopefully lighweight and only have sidebuttons on left side.

Ps almost no one in the world is close to r0achs OCD regarding this.
The majority of the players will not notice, and that includes almost every single real progamer in the world in any fps game.

I mean do you really need minimal delay, smoothing etc and tweaking bios, windows, turning everything off just to play gold in league of legends?

Nothing but overblown OCD that will not effect the majority of the playerbase of any game worldwide.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I mean do you really need minimal delay, smoothing etc and tweaking bios, windows, turning everything off just to play gold in league of legends?


No, pretty much every benefit and critique about a mouse revolves around FPS gaming. For any other game you can use whatever mouse suits your shape/weight preferences, and has no major defects.

I think this is something most people aren't aware of. They see "best mouse" and think it'll provide them some benefit in an RTS or MOBA, when the reality is that people were calling it "best mouse" because it has high malfunction speed and no major defects.


----------



## metal571

Huanos are very looked down upon for RTS and MOBA. Also, you don't want a heavy mouse for that stuff either. "Any" mouse working for genres that aren't FPS is a pretty biased opinion.


----------



## povohat

Site is up, pre-order available

http://ninox.org/


----------



## detto87

Just pre-ordered one. Excited to see how it performs.

I didn't follow the whole thread but is there any criticism yet concerning the performance?
A 3090 with 4000 CPI is something r0ach won't ever lay his hands on, that's for sure.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Site is up, pre-order available
> 
> http://ninox.org/


WHoohoo, finally placed an order on this baby







. Talk about a long time coming, finally an input device to end all others that have ever been made.

Thanks BST.


----------



## turnschuh

Nice! Gonna get one. Thanks for the update.


----------



## Deadeye

Never though this will happen but placed my order, so is there any news when it will be shipped?


----------



## CorruptBE

Ordering one eventually... right now I'm looking to buy a Cyanogen One Plus One so need to watch the wallet a bit


----------



## mtzgr

Order placed! It's pretty awesome that this project has come so far.


----------



## ronal

Will be ordering one this week! Finally, it's happening...


----------



## metal571

Isn't the 3090 EOL?


----------



## Dylan Nails

lol 4000 dpi 3090, **** that swamp


----------



## CookieBook

4000 dpi? r0ach will be upset.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> 4000 dpi? r0ach will be upset.


*Sensor Firmware*: Ninox NX-3090

Custom firmware? Could solve the perceived problem.


----------



## TK421

bst should send 1 sample to r0ach, we'll see how he likes it


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> *Sensor Firmware*: Ninox NX-3090
> 
> Custom firmware? Could solve the perceived problem.


I don't know if there's even a possibility to get a smoothing-free 3090 with 4000 CPI, but I haven't lost hope:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *http://www.esreality.com/post/2487925/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-2/#pid2654230*
> 
> As far as I know, since the sensor's camera works at over 6000FPS, it will have to finish any processing in 0.16ms or there would be a backlog in movement data, which would be a serious problem (it would change direction more slowly and carry on moving the cursor when the mouse has stopped moving).
> 
> If the sensor has to process movement in 0.16ms, it can't really be improved much there, it only leaves the MCU and firmware to worry about. The Aurora firmware has no smoothing added, so the latency should be pretty much as low as it can get, since it has no added processing or gimmicky things added which could slow things down.
> 
> In practice I don't notice any latency, ofc there is some, due to the monitor latency etc, but to me its not humanly noticeable.
> 
> I think overall, you can trust a sensor more than firmware, since sensors are made by experts who have to please other experts. However firmware can be written by anyone, its not held up to the same standards. So you could find the same sensors in mice which have very different feeling and latency.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Site is up, pre-order available
> 
> http://ninox.org/


Was this a troll?

Edit: Site worked after CTRL+F5. Preordered


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I don't know if there's even a possibility to get a smoothing-free 3090 with 4000 CPI, but I haven't lost hope:


Would have to be solved on SROM level.


----------



## Ickz

$20 shipping...


----------



## Sencha

Will keep an eye on this pending reviews from you guys......don't want to jump in just yet as very happy with the FK1....but if its amazing I'm there.


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Will keep an eye on this pending reviews from you guys......don't want to jump in just yet as very happy with the FK1....but if its amazing I'm there.


If it doesn't have peeling issues like the FK14 that's a plus. I'll be reading reviews before picking one up though.


----------



## fiskan

Is it just me or is the shape of the mouse exactly like that of the G100s? I was pretty disappointed with G100s :\


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fiskan*
> 
> Is it just me or is the shape of the mouse exactly like that of the G100s? I was pretty disappointed with G100s :\


iirc it's an OEM i-Rocks shell, bst didn't design the shell himself


----------



## discoprince

pre ordered, finally.
will probably be one of my final mouse purchases for the year besides the G302


----------



## nyshak

Pre-ordered. Finally this is becoming a reality


----------



## Moosiemayne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skar*
> 
> I picked up the irocks model. dont get what the fuzz is about with that shape tbh, but maybe its just not for me.


I actually LOVE the shape, but the i-rocks mouse has massive click latency, and I think there seems to be an input latency on movements as well. It's pretty awful in that regard. The clicks feel pretty good as well, I think that's due to them being seperated from the shell.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fiskan*
> 
> Is it just me or is the shape of the mouse exactly like that of the G100s? I was pretty disappointed with G100s :\


I have both the G100s and the I-rocks that shares the same shell. The I-Rocks is much less round, and it feels totally different in the hand. I think it's significantly more comfortable than the g100s, and the sensor placement is better.


----------



## Noismo

It's time to put 3366!


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Noismo*
> 
> It's time to put 3366!


Logitech exclusive.


----------



## CeeSA

I also pre-ordered one. I also like this kind of projekts.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CeeSA*
> 
> I also pre-ordered one. I also like this kind of projekts.


Same here, it allows individuals to listen and enact what the people want in their input devices and willing to front up with the money to see it happen. For too long we're stuck with what Logitech, Razer and Roccat wants to release upon us, well now it's someone releasing a mouse that we all want to buy and use instead of another limp-biscuit rodent from the failed larger corporations.

Long live people like BST for taking a risk in producing something we all have been waiting for, the longest time imaginable







.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

3366 isn't better than the 3310. The KPM feels just as good or better than the G502.


----------



## detto87

Better is a vague term.








I guess r0ach prefers the 3366 over the 3310, but I'm not quite sure.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

The thing is that each implementation of a sensor is different. I'm not sure which 3310 mouse he's comparing it to, but the KPM has the best sensor of the 3310s (Avior7000, Rival, KPM, FK1) in my experience.

3366 is essentially Logitech's implementation of the 3310 sensor anyways, from what I understand.


----------



## Aventadoor

KPM doesnt have the best sensor, its got the same 3310 sensor. It might have better implementation then the rest of the 3310 hoes

3366 is not Logitech's implementation of the 3310.
Its a new sensor

I havent tried KPM, but from my experience with 3310 mices, I cant really belive that its feeling just as good or better, sensor wise.
It's hard to compare because G502 is s hit in every way, except for the sensor


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The thing is that each implementation of a sensor is different. I'm not sure which 3310 mouse he's comparing it to, but the KPM has the best sensor of the 3310s (Avior7000, Rival, KPM, FK1) in my experience.
> 
> 3366 is essentially Logitech's implementation of the 3310 sensor anyways, from what I understand.


KPM has more smoothing though.

And the 3310 isn't even close to the architecture of the 3366.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> KPM has more smoothing though.
> 
> And the 3310 isn't even close to the architecture of the 3366.


How are you measuring smoothing? Or are you going by feel?


----------



## resis

Is this thing r0ach approved? I want it printed on the box, please.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> How are you measuring smoothing?


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*


Nice! Hahah.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Is this thing r0ach approved? I want it printed on the box, please.


Not yet. @r0ach are you going to try it?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*


Sadly, that's the only vid out there that shows a smoothing test... SCIENCE!!!


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*


lmao.

I was just curious because the 3366 was claimed to have 0 smoothing yet it felt like it had the exact same "smoothing" feel that is in almost every non-MLT04 mouse.

If his statement was based off feel only (which is something we have to resort to quite often since we don't have great empirical testing tools) then I'd have to disagree with his statement, as the KPM sensor has the least "smoothing" feel out of all the 3310 sensors, as well as the 3366.


----------



## discoprince

hang on, let me put more stickers and scotch tape on my mouse so i can be just as good at CS as maximilankohler
supermats bro, lol. k.

get lost please


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> hang on, let me put more stickers and scotch tape on my mouse so i can be just as good at CS as maximilankohler
> supermats bro, lol. k.
> 
> get lost please


http://memeguy.com/photos/images/i-feel-like-i-think-this-is-more-funny-than-it-should-be-130848.png


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> hang on, let me put more stickers and scotch tape on my mouse so i can be just as good at CS as maximilankohler
> supermats bro, lol. k.
> 
> get lost please


Let's not involve supermats. Those are pretty legendary, akin to Allsop raindrop status.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> lmao.
> 
> I was just curious because the 3366 was claimed to have 0 smoothing yet it felt like it had the exact same "smoothing" feel that is in almost every non-MLT04 mouse.
> 
> If his statement was based off feel only (which is something we have to resort to quite often since we don't have great empirical testing tools) then I'd have to disagree with his statement, as the KPM sensor has the least "smoothing" feel out of all the 3310 sensors, as well as the 3366.


Like I said, it's all just feeling with the whole "smoothing" debate. You can't measure it anyway. So just go with what feels good to you. To me the KPM did not feel as raw as the FK1. 3366 felt "most raw" but there is so much more to the feeling because it involves shape etc.


----------



## discoprince

bst is advertising no lag and no smoothing (listed on the website under specs) with his custom 3090 firmware, im really curious to see how it matches up to other 3090 mice.


----------



## DivineDark

To be fair, you could put that on every single mouse box that's released. How are you going to refute it? It's a generally non-quantifiable, untestable characteristic that relies on someones ability to feel it...


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> To be fair, you could put that on every single mouse box that's released. How are you going to refute it? It's a generally non-quantifiable, untestable characteristic that relies on someones ability to feel it...


yet no one does, his spec sheet is what i would like to see on every mouse manufacturers website, most don't even acknowledge such specifics.

the only other company to do so thus far has been logitech with their new mice.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> bst is advertising no lag and no smoothing (listed on the website under specs) with his custom 3090 firmware, im really curious to see how it matches up to other 3090 mice.


Interesting. I'm surprised that he chose to stick with the EOL 3090 after all of this time. It made sense in 2011 when he started this project but now he will be forced to quickly change to a different and newer sensor if his current stock sells well. And I really do hope these sell well and the project ends up being a big success.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Interesting. I'm surprised that he chose to stick with the EOL 3090 after all of this time. It made sense in 2011 when he started this project but now he will be forced to quickly change to a different and newer sensor if his current stock sells well. And I really do hope these sell well and the project ends up being a big success.


when he disappeared for like almost a year he said some investors had backed out and money was an issue, and with new companies dumping these new sensors out he felt like he couldn't compete but was happy with the product and is releasing it anyway.

he has a ton of pre-orders already and said he will start a kickstarter for a new mouse if all goes well.
he was supposed to release nice pads too but there was some issue with the factory or something right now so those might come later too.

i only really play RTS these days so the 3090 is totally fine with me unless its a super bad implementation like the one in my i-rocks spirit cocoon with prediction and lag.

im not hypersensitive to microseconds of lag or that "smoothing" stuff all you kids are hip to these days.


----------



## Skylit

I don't know if that's a marketing pitch, but smoothing cant be modified as it's inherit to internal SROM. (Requires Pixart to revise).

As for 3090, ODM likely ordered a fair amount of units before manufacturing stopped.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I don't know if that's a marketing pitch, but smoothing cant be modified as it's inherit to internal SROM. (Requires Pixart to revise).
> 
> As for 3090, ODM likely ordered a fair amount of units before manufacturing stopped.


It's not. He was asked about smoothness and lag on ESR and if his firmware/software would add some. He just said that the software/firmware does not add anything to his knowledge but that the mouse sure *had* some latency as do all other mice.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> I don't know if that's a marketing pitch, but smoothing cant be modified as it's inherit to internal SROM. (Requires Pixart to revise).
> 
> As for 3090, ODM likely ordered a fair amount of units before manufacturing stopped.


thanks, i did not know that.
i suppose then its some sort of marketing pitch because it is on the website under the mouses specs.


----------



## metal571

There is no ADDITIONAL processing. That is all, not too difficult to grasp.


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> There is no ADDITIONAL processing. That is all, not too difficult to grasp.


So there's still r0ach level smoothing, same as on all 4000 DPI 3090s


----------



## metal571

Who knows. Zowie never implemented the 3090 with 4000 CPI so no way to know what the raw sensor feels like for sure. r0ach smoothing claims are overrated. He complains about tiny micro-lags that in reality are something most skilled players could still get used to. Whether a mouse has even moderate smoothing vs. none should never determine the outcome of a gunfight in an FPS for example. It is more about what actually affects your stats and effectiveness than tiny technical numbers. I'm all for the perfectly skill-transparent setup, but if I have to sacrifice to the point of having a 120g mouse instead of a 90g mouse to do it, I will go for the lighter one. This one is what, 70g? That alone should make people at least give it a shot.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Interesting. I'm surprised that he chose to stick with the EOL 3090 after all of this time. It made sense in 2011 when he started this project but now he will be forced to quickly change to a different and newer sensor if his current stock sells well. And I really do hope these sell well and the project ends up being a big success.


Even though its an EOL sensor its still worthy and performs great with good firmware. I can't wait to see how this implementation of the sensor + firmware performs against the MLT04 or 3310 sensor.


----------



## Aventadoor

Would Get_Right be a better, more consistent player with an optical mice?

This is obviously about how sad it is that mouse tech is going sort of "backwards".
And I have to agree with r0ach.

To me the Kana V2 dident feel any worse then the EC1 eVo CL in terms of sensor performance, they both feel raw.
I'd imagine this mouse would feel similar.
Unfortuanly its too small for my taste.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> *Would Get_Right be a better, more consistent player with an optical mice?*
> 
> This is obviously about how sad it is that mouse tech is going sort of "backwards".
> And I have to agree with r0ach.
> 
> To me the Kana V2 dident feel any worse then the EC1 eVo CL in terms of sensor performance, they both feel raw.
> I'd imagine this mouse would feel similar.
> Unfortuanly its too small for my taste.


No... He wasn't. He moved to the Rival for about 45 seconds and went back to the Xai. He was still great, but performance didn't change much at all either way.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> This one is what, 70g? That alone should make people at least give it a shot.


it was one of the requirements most asked by the community to have it be that light.
it will be the only ambi mouse (that has forward and back buttons on one side, woot!) in my collection besides my WMO to be that light with that kind of hardware.
its pretty awesome what he did and thats the reason i preorded.

to say people will turn away from this thing just because it has a 3090 is just totally crazy imo.
the most lackluster thing about the mouse is the ttc scrollwheel encoder, which i want to say is in most of the mice i already own anyway.
and hes got huanos for the foward and back buttons which im really pumped about, omrons feel too smushy there imo.


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> No... He wasn't. He moved to the Rival for about 45 seconds and went back to the Xai. He was still great, but performance didn't change much at all either way.


It probably had most to do with the incorrect DPI on the Xai.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> No... He wasn't. He moved to the Rival for about 45 seconds and went back to the Xai. He was still great, but performance didn't change much at all either way.


All in all I think the 3 most import aspects imo for a mice are these (and somewhat in this order):

1) Shape and reliability (doesn't spazz out or skip)
2) Sensor performance

Which does not mean 2) should be ignored if it can be done within the constraints of 1).


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> All in all I think the 3 most import aspects imo for a mice are these (and somewhat in this order):
> 
> 1) Shape and reliability (doesn't spazz out or skip)
> 2) Sensor performance
> 
> Which does not mean 2) should be ignored.


I agree with you 100%.


----------



## CorruptBE

Which is why I think the Avior 7000 / FK1 are great mice but I also agree with r0ach to some extend. Precision and "snappiness" of the sensors can still be improved on.


----------



## Aventadoor

1) Shape and reliability
2) Time
3) Sensor

Thats how it should be.

How many on here have used the same mice for more then 1 year?
1 of the more importent things when trying to get really good at a game, is to remove variables, and have a consistent setup.
Everyone can defently get used to a Sensei with laser, its just a matter of time.


----------



## CorruptBE

I've used a Sensei/Xai for more then a year. For more then a year I was inconsistent. But still to this day I can also say I've played some of my BEST matches with that mouse. So is it wrong for some of us to "hope" for a package that delivers similar performance without the inconsistencies?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> 1) Shape and reliability
> 2) Time
> 3) Sensor
> 
> Thats how it should be.
> 
> How many on here have used the same mice for more then 1 year?
> 1 of the more importent things when trying to get really good at a game, is to remove variables, and have a consistent setup.
> Everyone can defently get used to a Sensei with laser, its just a matter of time.


Pfft! I haven't used the same mouse for more than a week in the last two years... I don't like to give myself time to get used to my devices. I like to keep my brain guessing. I'd hate to actually get competent at the games I play.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> 1) Shape and reliability
> 2) Time
> 3) Sensor
> 
> Thats how it should be.
> 
> How many on here have used the same mice for more then 1 year?
> 1 of the more importent things when trying to get really good at a game, is to remove variables, and have a consistent setup.
> Everyone can defently get used to a Sensei with laser, its just a matter of time.


sensei raw is still in my rotation, i need to get a hard pad for it tho.
it tracked so nice on this old worn out dell pad i had but thats long gone.

as far as a consistent setup though, i switch out mice AND keyboards very often, so, not consistent at all.
the only consistency is the fact that i constantly change my gear all the time. lol.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> sensei raw is still in my rotation, i need to get a hard pad for it tho.
> it tracked so nice on this old worn out dell pad i had but thats long gone.
> 
> as far as a consistent setup though, i switch out mice AND keyboards very often, so, not consistent at all.
> the only consistency is the fact that i constantly change my gear all the time. lol.


I was really liking the vanilla Sensei on the Corsair MM600. That pad is fantastic on the less textured side. Very Icemat like.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> I was really liking the vanilla Sensei on the Corsair MM600. That pad is fantastic on the less textured side. Very Icemat like.


that sounds great thanks for the suggestion.
I miss my vanilla sensei, i felt the button clicks were alot better than the ones on the RAW. I took it out of my bag arriving to a LAN party one day and it ceased to work.
I only ever got the RAW because i liked the clicks so much, and didnt want to fork out another $90 or whatever it was at the time for a new vanilla.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> that sounds great thanks for the suggestion.
> I miss my vanilla sensei, i felt the button clicks were alot better than the ones on the RAW. I took it out of my bag arriving to a LAN party one day and it ceased to work.
> I only ever got the RAW because i liked the clicks so much, and didnt want to fork out another $90 or whatever it was at the time for a new vanilla.


I'm with you. I bought a couple RAWs when I was in California last month, and while I absolutely adore the shape and weight, I really disliked the clicks. I was really surprised at the change in the switches, or if they didn't change switches, the rigid shell's effect on the switches.

Skylit said they use the same omrons, but it feels sooooo different.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> I'm with you. I bought a couple RAWs when I was in California last month, and while I absolutely adore the shape and weight, I really disliked the clicks. I was really surprised at the change in the switches, or if they didn't change switches, the rigid shell's effect on the switches.
> 
> Skylit said they use the same omrons, but it feels sooooo different.


maybe because the shell of the original sensei uses a metallic compound and the RAW doesn't?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> maybe because the shell of the original sensei uses a metallic compound and the RAW doesn't?


I'm not sure. The buttons on the Xai feel exactly like the Sensei, and it has a soft touch shell like the RAW.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Even though its an EOL sensor its still worthy and performs great with good firmware. I can't wait to see how this implementation of the sensor + firmware performs against the MLT04 or 3310 sensor.


I wasn't suggesting that the 3090 was a deal breaker. He's planning on making this available at Amazon and if things work out well he might sell out of the current stock and be forced to swap to a newer sensor to continue production. Something that he wouldn't have to deal with if he used a current model from the beginning.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Whether a mouse has even moderate smoothing vs. none should never determine the outcome of a gunfight in an FPS for example.


This is completely false. It absolutely makes a big difference on the competitive FPS level of play. There is a very significant difference when switching back and forth between my 3.0 and G502 in aim_map.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Like I said, it's all just feeling with the whole "smoothing" debate. You can't measure it anyway. So just go with what feels good to you. To me the KPM did not feel as raw as the FK1. 3366 felt "most raw" but there is so much more to the feeling because it involves shape etc.


Interesting. I wonder if installing the drivers contributed to that. Or maybe you used a different firmware or something... I just received both mice a couple weeks ago and didn't install anything. I tested them both on 400 and 800dpi and at first I felt the KPM felt significantly better, but after more testing they both felt pretty similar.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> No... He wasn't. He moved to the Rival for about 45 seconds and went back to the Xai. He was still great, but performance didn't change much at all either way.


You guys are focusing on the wrong thing. It's got nothing to do with laser vs optical. The copperhead was a laser sensor yet it was one of the best sensors (not including malfunction speed) I've used.

I'm very sensitive to sensor performance, which is why I'm still using my 3.0. But when I tried the xai I felt that it was useable if the shape wasn't bad for my hand.


----------



## CorruptBE

Back when I still played CSGO I found that "smoothing" nerfed my ability to make small rapid corrections for headshots after a flick. Something that did not happen on Xai/Sensei/Original DA 3.0G.

Could never use the Intelli mice because max tracking was to low (I actually reach 4 m/s quite often). I used a Logitech MX300 and later on a MX510 in the old days. That being said if performance is on par and BST managed to somehow get the 3090 perform at those levels I will really be interested as this shape is very close to a MX300.


----------



## resis

Smoothies never nerf ones abilities.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> 1) Shape and reliability
> 2) Time
> 3) Sensor
> 
> Thats how it should be.
> 
> How many on here have used the same mice for more then 1 year?
> 1 of the more importent things when trying to get really good at a game, is to remove variables, and have a consistent setup.
> Everyone can defently get used to a Sensei with laser, its just a matter of time.


I used the FK1 since I got it, on the UC 50 as long as I got it, and I'm going to keep using both until they break. And then I'll buy a new FK1 (if it's past warranty). I couldn't be more happy with any other mouse. That's also the reason why I'm a lot less active here, I found my perfect match.

I might still get the Ninox at some point in time because I like the project and the effort put into it.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Smoothies never nerf ones abilities.


That's not true at all. I've had several smoothies that nerfed my ability to get out of the bathroom for significant periods of time. Sometimes to the point where my legs and feet went completely numb... Screw smoothies.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> That's not true at all. I've had several smoothies that nerfed my ability to get out of the bathroom for significant periods of time. Sometimes to the point where my legs and feet went completely numb... Screw smoothies.


That's because you were playing with your phone for too long and the pressure from sitting on the bowl hindered the blod flow to your legs.

Why did I even type this?


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> That's because you were playing with your phone for too long and the pressure from sitting on the bowl hindered the blod flow to your legs.
> 
> Why did I even type this?


I'm on the floor


----------



## a_ak57

Is there actually a real chance that there will be a revision of this mouse with a better sensor, or is that just a best-case "if it sells super duper way beyond expectations" thing some talk about? I'm intrigued by a really light ambi mouse that actually has side buttons, but if there might be a version with a 3310 or something I'd rather just wait.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Is there actually a real chance that there will be a revision of this mouse with a better sensor, or is that just a best-case "if it sells super duper way beyond expectations" thing some talk about? I'm intrigued by a really light ambi mouse that actually has side buttons, but if there might be a version with a 3310 or something I'd rather just wait.


He is propably low on funds right now so you should just buy this one to support him to make new awesome mice in the future.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Is there actually a real chance that there will be a revision of this mouse with a better sensor, or is that just a best-case "if it sells super duper way beyond expectations" thing some talk about? I'm intrigued by a really light ambi mouse that actually has side buttons, but if there might be a version with a 3310 or something I'd rather just wait.


He does want to make more (with his own shell design for instance), but his next mouse probably wouldn't come out for a while, and would be dependent on if it was financially feasible. So I'd echo Ukkooh and say to buy this one to support the project.


----------



## a_ak57

Hmm, guess you're right. Seems after shipping it'd be just under $60 which isn't too bad. Though I really don't need to buy yet another mouse. >_>


----------



## nyshak

I don't see the 3090 as a deal breaker too. In fact, I've switched back from the FK1 to the FK2014 a couple of days ago due to the smaller form factor. The 3090 implementation of the FK2014 has issues especially considering the custom lense that render the DPI steps somewhat awkwardly.

The Aurora does not have such "huge" issues it looks like. So I guess that if the FK2014 works better for me than the FK1 due to its more compact and lighter form the Aurora will do too, even though the FK1 has the better sensor hands down.

I'd say if the Aurora holds true to its advertised specs not many people will hit the malfunction speed of it for instance.


----------



## Mych

I'm a fan of G1/G3/G100s shape so I have to try this one out, especially since the buttons are separate from the top shell. Hopefully the button/switch implementation is tactile and responsive, although I'm not sure if bst has had the resources to fully test such aspects.


----------



## turnschuh

He did a part 3 thread.
http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/
And talks about new shapes.

























»bst:
Quote:


> The cool thing about this though is it would use the same PCB as the aurora so you could just buy the shell and swap them over. So it would be pretty cheap to just change to that shell.


Source: http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2674798

Or this:








Source: http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2674901

EDIT: He also posted a video of the WMORA:

http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2674801





Maybe someday he can just sell the PCB etc + different shapes which would perfectly fit. Would be awesome.


----------



## a_ak57

Huh, it's likely to be on massdrop? Guess I could have saved some money, oh well.


----------



## Moosiemayne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> He did a part 3 thread.
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/
> And talks about new shapes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> »bst:
> 
> Maybe someday he can just sell the PCB etc + different shapes which would perfectly fit. Would be awesome.


Jesus christ man if there's no click latency, good sensor placement, not awful smoothing this is my *DREAM* shape.


----------



## vss vintorez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moosiemayne*
> 
> Jesus christ man if there's no click latency, good sensor placement, not awful smoothing this is my *DREAM* shape.


Wake up, it's just only a dream !

There will be always a problem, I am sure about that.


----------



## chrislee11

Sorry for these questions but I am late to this new info on this mouse. Did he say if he was gonna have it up on amazon? I thought I read something about it but I cant find it.

Also can we expect this mouse soon?


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrislee11*
> 
> Sorry for these questions but I am late to this new info on this mouse. Did he say if he was gonna have it up on amazon? I thought I read something about it but I cant find it.
> 
> Also can we expect this mouse soon?


He said the mouse is expected to be shipped to those who preordered by November. You can order on his site, but I am not sure about amazon.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrislee11*
> 
> Sorry for these questions but I am late to this new info on this mouse. Did he say if he was gonna have it up on amazon? I thought I read something about it but I cant find it.
> 
> Also can we expect this mouse soon?


BST never said anything about it being sold on Amazon. The mouse will be released in November.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

He actually said in the future he'd try to put it on amazon.

ctrl+f part 2: http://esreality.com/post/2487925/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-2/


----------



## chrislee11

Thanks for the info guys. This mouse looks great just based on size and shape. I love that it is a small ambi mouse with side buttons! Anyone know where he is located by chance? Just wondering to see how long the shipping would take.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrislee11*
> 
> Thanks for the info guys. This mouse looks great just based on size and shape. I love that it is a small ambi mouse with side buttons! Anyone know where he is located by chance? Just wondering to see how long the shipping would take.


It will be shipped from the UK.


----------



## chrislee11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> It will be shipped from the UK.


Thanks for that.


----------



## Kyube

@r0ach
Get the Aurora and compare it to your G400, please.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kyube*
> 
> @r0ach
> Get the Aurora and compare it to your G400, please.


why would he bother?
it has the 4000dpi 3090 he hates that configuration.


----------



## a_ak57

Roach tries out tons of mice he knows he won't like anyway.


----------



## CorruptBE

To be fair, as far as smoothing and mouselag goes, the smallest bit will make him rant...

Considering that's the only possible issue I could have with this mouse...

+1 for a r0ach review









(if it gets a r0ach approved seal I'm insta buying)


----------



## Maximillion

Another +1 for a r0ach review, it'd be a disservice to this community if he didn't. It might be the most entertaining one yet.

That aside I'm on the brink of ordering one for the heck of it. I've been saying for awhile now that a G100s with side-buttons would be my dream mouse and this seems like it checks all the boxes.


----------



## resis

r0ach, r0ach, r0ach!

I'll get me one of these anyway. Just too curious after all these years waiting. Besides, I love the G100 shape + Deathadder rubber coating + Zowie cord + sidebuttons + good sensor. All I Need.

I wanted to get me the FK1, but the pricing is outrageous. It's almost 70 Euros on Amazon, while 60 Dollars in the US. Why do I need to pay almost 90 Dollars for it?


----------



## Torongo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> r0ach, r0ach, r0ach!
> 
> I'll get me one of these anyway. Just too curious after all these years waiting. Besides, I love the G100 shape + Deathadder rubber coating + Zowie cord + sidebuttons + good sensor. All I Need.
> 
> I wanted to get me the FK1, but the pricing is outrageous. It's almost 70 Euros on Amazon, while 60 Dollars in the US. Why do I need to pay almost 90 Dollars for it?


I feel your pain bro.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Another +1 for a r0ach review, it'd be a disservice to this community if he didn't. It might be the most entertaining one yet.
> 
> That aside I'm on the brink of ordering one for the heck of it. I've been saying for awhile now that a G100s with side-buttons would be my dream mouse and this seems like it checks all the boxes.


I bought it already, but still waiting on the delivery. Looking forward to r0ach's super detailed review, so that BST can get a true feeling out there for his latest product







.


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Roach tries out tons of mice he knows he won't like anyway.


From the posts I've seen of his barely anything constitutes a usable mouse


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> From the posts I've seen of his barely anything constitutes a usable mouse


The r0ach bar is deliberately set too high. It is a matter of how much below things are.


----------



## Nivity

Pre-ordered it a swell.

Could not care less about r0ach garbage, never cared before and never will








I would not take advice about cleaning my hands from someone with severe OCD that have a fixation on doing that either.

Will buy g302 as well most likely


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> From the posts I've seen of his barely anything constitutes a usable mouse


Because pretty much every single mouse has some significant problem, and most have a major defect.

Sensor performance seems to have been degrading over the past 10 years while manufacturers focus on fluff and marketing rather than quality shapes/sensors.


----------



## metal571

Every mouse has an issue somewhere. Everything is tradeoffs. It depends on what matters the most to a particular person.


----------



## DivineDark

That's the truth. I acquired 2 IE3.0 Legendary Editions in the last couple weeks, and they're great, but I still use the KPM and FK1/AM-GS


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrislee11*
> 
> Thanks for the info guys. This mouse looks great just based on size and shape. I love that it is a small ambi mouse with side buttons! Anyone know where he is located by chance? Just wondering to see how long the shipping would take.


It isn't really. Not if you need side buttons as a lefti. This one only has one set of side buttons. So in truth its a right handed mouse with an ambi shape.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Every mouse has an issue somewhere. Everything is tradeoffs. It depends on what matters the most to a particular person.


Yeah but giving a mouse to r0ach is like hooking it up to some benching tool that flashes a major red light and sounds several alarms all over the country if it's laggy so for that specific 1 aspect... I do want him to test this mouse









It's like saying: "Malfunction speed: Good, Shape: Good, Responsiveness: r0ach approved".

I still feel the built in smoothing or lack of precision on small movements on just about any 3310 mice (even the FK1), but it's within reasonable levels for me to use it. But if BST his mouse is better in this aspect it would mean I have a better alternative.

Using the FK1 atm is still somewhat a "tradeoff". DA 3G's responsiveness is far superior but I can't stand the shape. Using a G100 from Logitech isn't an option either considering I can't use a mouse that malfunctions below 4 m/s.


----------



## Kyube

Judging by the way he placed the sensor and judging by the way his software works, this should be the most raw A3090 implementation without smoothing on a high level (we need r0ach seal of approval for this though).


----------



## Ihateallmice

lmao at this forum all buying into r0ach's bull**** while he's nothing but a joke over at ESReality


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ihateallmice*
> 
> lmao at this forum all buying into r0ach's bull**** while he's nothing but a joke over at ESReality


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ihateallmice*
> 
> lmao at this forum all buying into r0ach's bull**** while he's nothing but a joke over at ESReality


Do those guys even disable print spooler? Who are they to joke someone who actually goes the extra mile to test and achieve optimal performance?


----------



## Mych

Maybe r0ach could use some hedging in his statements and maybe you disagree with him, but this hate and disjointed ramblings are going overboard, not to mention off-topic. Take a pinch or gallon of salt and read his posts or don't. Peace out... or something.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ihateallmice*
> 
> lmao at this forum all buying into r0ach's bull**** while he's nothing but a joke over at ESReality


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Ehh, while esreality is expected to have a higher level expertise since it's a competitive gaming site, there are still a number of noobs there, as well as others that feel their personal experiences completely nullify everyone else's. Also, it's pretty much only a quake site. And mice don't feel the same in every game due to a variety of factors.

There is a massive thread on the CS 1.6 steam forums about gameplay issues related to hardware/software. Throughout the 10 years I've played the game competitively I've seen many many people working through the same things roach made his big thread about, in order to try and fix the issue. It's a strange issue that some people get (I had it on my old PC) in CS 1.6 that is affected by pretty much everything.

Some of the tests I've seen on esreality are pretty simplistic. Such as rating mice solely on the basis of malfunction speed _(there's nothing wrong with this until people start getting the perception that it's the only thing that matters)_, or solely on the basis of detectable input lag via high FPS camera.

Someone linked me to a thread where they went through all of roach's tweaks and concluded that since they didn't affect input lag, they were all bogus. This kind of bad logic is pervasive everywhere in life.

It's great to test whatever we can, but there are tons of things we can't test for. That doesn't mean those things don't exist or that we should consider them "hocus pocus" till technology advances to the point where we have the means to test everything. We should just treat them with a healthy dose of skepticism. And unfortunately that means we have to test most things ourselves since many people have different experiences.


----------



## Crizzl

"as well as others that feel their personal experiences completely nullify everyone else's"
Sounds pretty much like roach to me.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ehh, while esreality is expected to have a higher level expertise since it's a competitive gaming site, there are still a number of noobs there, as well as others that feel their personal experiences completely nullify everyone else's. Also, it's pretty much only a quake site. And mice don't feel the same in every game due to a variety of factors.
> 
> There is a massive thread on the CS 1.6 steam forums about gameplay issues related to hardware/software. Throughout the 10 years I've played the game competitively I've seen many many people working through the same things roach made his big thread about, in order to try and fix the issue. It's a strange issue that some people get (I had it on my old PC) in CS 1.6 that is affected by pretty much everything.
> 
> Some of the tests I've seen on esreality are pretty simplistic. Such as rating mice solely on the basis of malfunction speed _(there's nothing wrong with this until people start getting the perception that it's the only thing that matters)_, or solely on the basis of detectable input lag via high FPS camera.
> 
> Someone linked me to a thread where they went through all of roach's tweaks and concluded that since they didn't affect input lag, they were all bogus. This kind of bad logic is pervasive everywhere in life.
> 
> It's great to test whatever we can, but there are tons of things we can't test for. That doesn't mean those things don't exist or that we should consider them "hocus pocus" till technology advances to the point where we have the means to test everything. We should just treat them with a healthy dose of skepticism. And unfortunately that means we have to test most things ourselves since many people have different experiences.


His "feelings" aren't hocus pocus for me, though I do find him a little extreme in voicing his opinion. Never tried the old intelli mice, but I can feel the difference in responsiveness between an old DA 3G and a 3090/3310 mouse instantly.

Last time I tried the old DA in a game I just kept ranting on TS: "OMG THIS THING IS SO RESPONSIVE!!"

A few days later I switching back to an ambi mouse again though as I detest the shape. Shape and reliability (as in doesn't crap out on you with stuff like malfunctioning) are still the NR 1 priority imo for a mouse, BUT, I do think it's time to also focus on the fact that responsiveness is an important factor just as well (especially now that there are sensors who can do 5 m/s easily, it's time to focus on other things if we want to keep improving things).

And tbh most "tweaks" people do have no effect on your mouse responsiveness, they will however decrease the odds of having a "laggy" or "stuttering" game. I see so many people on forums complaining about stuttering games or what not... never been an issue for me (I've been running tweaks like disabled core parking for ages).

Oh fyi my print spooler is still enabled, I do need to print stuff once in a while...


----------



## a_ak57

I actually think it's good that roach does his tests since it's neat to have data down to a microscopic level since it does actually impact some, but I don't think it's good that he frames stuff in extreme black and white ways because that affects newbies who don't realize he's talking about differences that, frankly, most people will never notice even if they look. I actually came upon someone elsewhere who thought the G402 has a legitimately poor sensor because they saw his thread about it when looking for a gaming mouse. Sure, it may not be MLT04 amazing, but it's certainly good enough for most people. There's a world of difference between pointing out why something isn't perfect and deeming it SWAMP and such.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> "as well as others that feel their personal experiences completely nullify everyone else's"
> Sounds pretty much like roach to me.


Maybe I missed what you're referring to, but I haven't really seen that from him. There was even something he had tested where I didn't have the same result as him and I messaged him about it.

What I was referring to in that quote was a few people on esreality saying that all gaming mice are fine because they can't personally detect a difference, and anyone who can is wrong/lying.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ihateallmice*
> 
> lmao at this forum all buying into r0ach's bull**** while he's nothing but a joke over at ESReality


He's not a joke to me. And I'm on ESR.


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> His "feelings" aren't hocus pocus for me, though I do find him a little extreme in voicing his opinion. Never tried the old intelli mice, but I can feel the difference in responsiveness between an old DA 3G and a 3090/3310 mouse instantly.
> 
> Last time I tried the old DA in a game I just kept ranting on TS: "OMG THIS THING IS SO RESPONSIVE!!"
> 
> A few days later I switching back to an ambi mouse again though as I detest the shape. Shape and reliability (as in doesn't crap out on you with stuff like malfunctioning) are still the NR 1 priority imo for a mouse, BUT, I do think it's time to also focus on the fact that responsiveness is an important factor just as well (especially now that there are sensors who can do 5 m/s easily, it's time to focus on other things if we want to keep improving things).
> 
> And tbh most "tweaks" people do have no effect on your mouse responsiveness, they will however decrease the odds of having a "laggy" or "stuttering" game. I see so many people on forums complaining about stuttering games or what not... never been an issue for me (I've been running tweaks like disabled core parking for ages).
> 
> Oh fyi my print spooler is still enabled, I do need to print stuff once in a while...


why not get a salmosa if you think 3g is best sensor then?


----------



## CorruptBE

God awful excessive V like shape and prediction...


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ehh, while esreality is expected to have a higher level expertise since it's a competitive gaming site, there are still a number of noobs there, as well as others that feel their personal experiences completely nullify everyone else's. Also, it's pretty much only a quake site. And mice don't feel the same in every game due to a variety of factors.
> 
> There is a massive thread on the CS 1.6 steam forums about gameplay issues related to hardware/software. Throughout the 10 years I've played the game competitively I've seen many many people working through the same things roach made his big thread about, in order to try and fix the issue. It's a strange issue that some people get (I had it on my old PC) in CS 1.6 that is affected by pretty much everything.
> 
> Some of the tests I've seen on esreality are pretty simplistic. Such as rating mice solely on the basis of malfunction speed _(there's nothing wrong with this until people start getting the perception that it's the only thing that matters)_, or solely on the basis of detectable input lag via high FPS camera.
> 
> Someone linked me to a thread where they went through all of roach's tweaks and concluded that since they didn't affect input lag, they were all bogus. This kind of bad logic is pervasive everywhere in life.
> 
> It's great to test whatever we can, but there are tons of things we can't test for. That doesn't mean those things don't exist or that we should consider them "hocus pocus" till technology advances to the point where we have the means to test everything. We should just treat them with a healthy dose of skepticism. And unfortunately that means we have to test most things ourselves since many people have different experiences.
> 
> 
> 
> His "feelings" aren't hocus pocus for me, though I do find him a little extreme in voicing his opinion. Never tried the old intelli mice, but I can feel the difference in responsiveness between an old DA 3G and a 3090/3310 mouse instantly.
> 
> Last time I tried the old DA in a game I just kept ranting on TS: "OMG THIS THING IS SO RESPONSIVE!!"
> 
> A few days later I switching back to an ambi mouse again though as I detest the shape. Shape and reliability (as in doesn't crap out on you with stuff like malfunctioning) are still the NR 1 priority imo for a mouse, BUT, I do think it's time to also focus on the fact that responsiveness is an important factor just as well (especially now that there are sensors who can do 5 m/s easily, it's time to focus on other things if we want to keep improving things).
> 
> And tbh most "tweaks" people do have no effect on your mouse responsiveness, they will however decrease the odds of having a "laggy" or "stuttering" game. I see so many people on forums complaining about stuttering games or what not... never been an issue for me (I've been running tweaks like disabled core parking for ages).
> 
> Oh fyi my print spooler is still enabled, I do need to print stuff once in a while...
Click to expand...

Never had stuttering problems where the root was things like core parking or other bios tweaks.
And im extremly sensitive to suttering, also the reason I never ran sli,cf.

Most often stuttering can be traced to other parts.

Also, if you like the 3g just get a salmosa 3g which r0ach praised the hell out of









I mean, I get it. I can also feel the responsiveness of the 3g sensor, mlt04 and so on.
But not to the point that It effect my aim or anything.

What does effect it however is playing on a ****ty 60hz monitor which some are, hell even r0ach played on a ****ty 19" 60hz before he got his korean which still is lower hz.
I could never play a fps on that low hz. Need 120-144, because I played with that all the time ever since CRT.

Tried playing on a low inputlag IPS 60hz, wanted to throw the damn thing out the window. Got mad even sitting in windows because everything lagged.


----------



## CorruptBE

Oh I'm staying far away from SLI and crossfire for obvious reasons...

And I use a 27 inch 120 Hz monitor. The main difference for me when comparing a 3090/3310 to the older DA is not when making large movements, it's the smaller ones. The only way I could explain it somewhat is that it's as if there's some sort of weird "deadzone" but it's not exactly that. That's about as close as I can explain it. DA 3G however is instantaneous.

The difference in gameplay is small but noticeable.

Last time I did a test with a mouse that was properly responsive I could just see myself making a last second adjustment of 1 or 2 pixels worth of on screen size and changing the outcome of a burst on a weapon from a shouldershot into a headshot.

Looking at it afterwards on my shadowplay footage in slow motion I could even see a small twitch, just a 1 or 2 pixels large on my monitor, huppa, onto that head, last second adjustment.

It's those things that just don't feel "perfect" on alot of mice lately.

Alas, I would've won that fight even without that twitch, but he dropped so much quicker because of it


----------



## discoprince

this thread is completely derailed

so i cant wait to get my ninox aurora..


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> this thread is completely derailed
> 
> so i cant wait to get my ninox aurora..


Let us know how it performs!

Would get one myself but I spent way to much cash this month.


----------



## metal571

I would try this except I also just bought...

4790K
DT770 Pro 80
and soon a new mobo...


----------



## CorruptBE

Cyanogen One Plus One + car insurance.


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I actually think it's good that roach does his tests since it's neat to have data down to a microscopic level since it does actually impact some, but I don't think it's good that he frames stuff in extreme black and white ways because that affects newbies who don't realize he's talking about differences that, frankly, most people will never notice even if they look. I actually came upon someone elsewhere who thought the G402 has a legitimately poor sensor because they saw his thread about it when looking for a gaming mouse. Sure, it may not be MLT04 amazing, but it's certainly good enough for most people. There's a world of difference between pointing out why something isn't perfect and deeming it SWAMP and such.


Since when does r0ach have any data? I mean I seriously doubt over 95% of the things he claims have any effect on input lag at all, ignoring sub millisecond effects. Claiming that things like PLL over voltage cause noticeable input lag is pretty out there if you ask me.

But what the **** do I know about laggy mice, the only mice I have ever used are MS mice, DA 3g, and a kinzuadder. Maybe modern mice really are terrible, I have high hopes for BST's mouse though.


----------



## Kyube

I feel sad, shouldn't have mentioned r0ach here. Completely derailed the thread. Sorry bst :c

Also, nvc did some CS:GO and QL plays with the Aurora at 1600dpi @ 500hz
http://www.twitch.tv/justnvc (check past broadcasts)
Judging by his LG tracking in QL, this mouse has a low amount of smoothing.


----------



## TK421

Aside from r0ach, maybe MaximillionKohler can also test for smoothing?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Aside from r0ach, maybe MaximillionKohler can also test for smoothing?


I'll wait for others. Maybe if it goes up on Amazon I'll do it, but I really really doubt it'll be better than the other 3090 and 3310 sensors I tested already.


----------



## metal571

I played 1.6 today...almost forgot what it felt like again. Jeeze. Haven't tried swapping around mice in-game yet though.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> I played 1.6 today...almost forgot what it felt like again. Jeeze. Haven't tried swapping around mice in-game yet though.


I look forward to your results!


----------



## metal571

It was funny I was going to do some final testing with the FK1 on my most familiar game of COD4 but somehow decided to play 1.6 tonight for no reason in a random DM. That was a blast...for some reason I can actually do pretty well in terms of aiming in that game, but awful in GO or CSS. I've always held 1.6 in very high regard despite what I've said or not said on here about CS. Just never mastered it. What a pure, raw, classic game.


----------



## TheGMT

nvc does that with most mice, but from everything he''s said so far it's safe to assume it doesn't have an abnormal amount of smoothing, almost guaranteed less than what a lot of people usually feel with the 4000dpi 3090 SROM. Here's to hoping!


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> It was funny I was going to do some final testing with the FK1 on my most familiar game of COD4 but somehow decided to play 1.6 tonight for no reason in a random DM. That was a blast...for some reason I can actually do pretty well in terms of aiming in that game, but awful in GO or CSS. I've always held 1.6 in very high regard despite what I've said or not said on here about CS. Just never mastered it. What a pure, raw, classic game.


The hs hitboxes in 1.6 are so large that its around 3 times easier to headshot than in CS:GO.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGMT*
> 
> nvc does that with most mice, but from everything he''s said so far it's safe to assume it doesn't have an abnormal amount of smoothing, almost guaranteed less than what a lot of people usually feel with the 4000dpi 3090 SROM. Here's to hoping!


I asked him about the tracking when he streamed and he said that its better than his CM storm alcor but worse than his DA 3.5G. Oh and I should propably mention that the DA thing might have been a joke since he said he would ban everyone who would hate on the DA in the chat.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> But what the **** do I know about laggy mice, the only mice I have ever used are MS mice, DA 3g, and a kinzuadder. Maybe modern mice really are terrible, I have high hopes for BST's mouse though.


The ones you just listed are all using top of the line responsive sensors









Anyhow, modern mice aren't terrible, it's just something they (pixart) can improve upon... alot.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> The hs hitboxes in 1.6 are so large that its around 3 times easier to headshot than in CS:GO.


The models in CSGO are larger, so the smaller hitboxes equalize it. He also said he does poorly in both CSS and CSGO, and CSS has the largest hitboxes.

And "3x" is quite the exaggeration.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> It was funny I was going to do some final testing with the FK1 on my most familiar game of COD4 but somehow decided to play 1.6 tonight for no reason in a random DM. That was a blast...for some reason I can actually do pretty well in terms of aiming in that game, but awful in GO or CSS. I've always held 1.6 in very high regard despite what I've said or not said on here about CS. Just never mastered it. What a pure, raw, classic game.


Will you be testing multiple mice in 1.6?


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Will you be testing multiple mice in 1.6?


From now on before any reviews, probably.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> It was funny I was going to do some final testing with the FK1 on my most familiar game of COD4 but somehow decided to play 1.6 tonight for no reason in a random DM. That was a blast...for some reason I can actually do pretty well in terms of aiming in that game, but awful in GO or CSS. I've always held 1.6 in very high regard despite what I've said or not said on here about CS. Just never mastered it. What a pure, raw, classic game.


I would say quake is way more "raw" then cs.
And 1.6 hitboxes are anything other then "raw"


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I would say quake is way more "raw" then cs.
> And 1.6 hitboxes are anything other then "raw"


But would Quake Live, say, the version on steam, be even less input lag than 1.6? I would honestly prefer to test the mice in that game anyway. I've always liked those kind of games more than CS.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Input lag might not be the only reason, or even the main reason, that some games feel more "raw".

I honestly don't even know why or how input lag would differ in games (especially ones with raw input..).

I've never even seen a comparison of input lag between 1.6, css, and csgo, so I don't know which game has the least amount.

I just use the blurbusters link as an example because it's the only test I've seen showing a difference that could be the cause.

What are you basing your statement of "quake is way more raw than 1.6" off of?


----------



## metal571

Game input lag at the same framerate can vary widely.

It is very simple, really. As I am currently working as a software engineer, my best guess would be simply that the graphics renderer probably has far more layers to put on top of one another before the frames can actually be delivered to the GPU in the first place. The more processing, the more complex the graphics, the longer it's going to take before it gets through to your screen. As simple as that.

100 FPS on 1.6 felt like over 250 on BF4, it's a big difference. A huge one.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Ah, I see. Thanks.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Game input lag at the same framerate can vary widely.
> 
> It is very simple, really. *As I am currently working as a software engineer*, my best guess would be simply that the graphics renderer probably has far more layers to put on top of one another before the frames can actually be delivered to the GPU in the first place. The more processing, the more complex the graphics, the longer it's going to take before it gets through to your screen. As simple as that.
> 
> 100 FPS on 1.6 felt like over 250 on BF4, it's a big difference. A huge one.


Then might you have any idea why the mouse feels better when I disable multicore support in CSGO?

(mat_queue_mode)

Dunno if it is better but it feels better with it off. Game does show weird quirks and a massive drop in fps though with it disabled.

I'm more into networking irl rather then software so I'm kind of scratching my head as to why it would.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kyube*
> 
> I feel sad, shouldn't have mentioned r0ach here. Completely derailed the thread. Sorry bst :c
> 
> Also, nvc did some CS:GO and QL plays with the Aurora at 1600dpi @ 500hz
> http://www.twitch.tv/justnvc (check past broadcasts)
> Judging by his LG tracking in QL, this mouse has a low amount of smoothing.


After seeing almost 3 hours of this video,
http://www.twitch.tv/justnvc/b/581050473
i am really happy i pre ordered the aurora and least worried now about if it has smoothing or high post processing.
Nvc really seems to know what he is talking about and i bet it feels as responsive as he is telling us.

I wasnt aware before seeing the vid btw that the mouse does actually look really cool with the LEDs and the half transparent bottom.

Was also suprised how he can palmgrip it like his deathadder with no issues, even though when he showed them for comparison side by side the deathadder looked like a very big brick.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> After seeing almost 3 hours of this video,
> http://www.twitch.tv/justnvc/b/581050473
> i am really happy i pre ordered the aurora and least worried now about if it has smoothing or high post processing.
> Nvc really seems to know what he is talking about and i bet it feels as responsive as he is telling us.
> 
> I wasnt aware before seeing the vid btw that the mouse does actually look really cool with the LEDs and the half transparent bottom.
> 
> Was also suprised how he can palmgrip it like his deathadder with no issues, even though when he showed them for comparison side by side the deathadder looked like a very big brick.


When does he actually talk about the mice and compare them?


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> When does he actually talk about the mice and compare them?


2:05:00


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> 2:05:00


Hm, seems to have a few minor flaws but nothing I see to be too worried about. I'm still very interested in trying it out.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I would say quake is way more "raw" then cs.
> And 1.6 hitboxes are anything other then "raw"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But would Quake Live, say, the version on steam, be even less input lag than 1.6? I would honestly prefer to test the mice in that game anyway. I've always liked those kind of games more than CS.
Click to expand...

No I do not count Quake-Live.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Input lag might not be the only reason, or even the main reason, that some games feel more "raw".
> 
> I honestly don't even know why or how input lag would differ in games (especially ones with raw input..).
> 
> I've never even seen a comparison of input lag between 1.6, css, and csgo, so I don't know which game has the least amount.
> 
> I just use the blurbusters link as an example because it's the only test I've seen showing a difference that could be the cause.
> 
> What are you basing your statement of "quake is way more raw than 1.6" off of?


What are you basing 1.6 is more raw then Quake?
Quake 3 (not ql, was one of the most raw input games ever made) And hitboxes in 1.6 is a joke and always was.
Hell, I prefered QW rawness back in the day, and even now playing it everything just feels flawless with the correct tweaks.

1.6 engine is flawed aswell as everyone should know.

This have nothing to about the game itself, i played 1.6 for years but there are flaws in the engine.


----------



## Moosiemayne

Could anyone tell me, does the Ninox Aurora use the EXACT same shell as the I-Rocks 7810? Or is the shape modified in any ways, other than the transparent bottom and the LEDs?


----------



## Torongo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *h8m3h*
> 
> No, it's completely different shell(eventhough it looks the same)
> This is identical one: http://www.monsterlabs.co.kr/shop/product_detail.html?pd_no=31


Actually, shell is OEM in some sort. So it's not a coincidence that many Chinese(?) companies have the same shell.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Hm, seems to have a few minor flaws but nothing I see to be too worried about. I'm still very interested in trying it out.


I'll be ordering one this week.


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Then might you have any idea why the mouse feels better when I disable multicore support in CSGO?
> 
> (mat_queue_mode)
> 
> Dunno if it is better but it feels better with it off. Game does show weird quirks and a massive drop in fps though with it disabled.
> 
> I'm more into networking irl rather then software so I'm kind of scratching my head as to why it would.


Mouse feels worlds better with it off. Was having difficulty aiming in GO for months and couldnt figure out why, it just felt off to me, disabled multicore rendering and voila, mouse movement and aiming felt good again.

I'm assuming the setting added input lag by highering pre rendered frames, hence why you get a ton more frames with it enabled. Mat_queue_mode -1 (multicore enabled default) is probably a custom render setting inbetween 1 and 2, which is why i would have to force mat_queue_mode to 1 with multicore enabled for it to feel ok again.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> What are you basing 1.6 is more raw then Quake?


I haven't made that claim. But comments I've seen such as this lead me to believe 1.6 is the better game to be testing in:

_youtube.com/user/Ramla777
Ramla777 posted a comment
1 year ago(today is dec 26 2012)
Currently I use the abyssus. I only use the wmo when I play 1.6. It just feels so much more accurate in that game. I use the abyssus for every other game. CS:S Quake COD SC2_

Not to mention that that phenomena seems to be much more known among people who've used the 3.0 in competitive 1.6, compared to a primarily competitive quake website.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Quake 3 (not ql, was one of the most raw input games ever made) And hitboxes in 1.6 is a joke and always was.
> Hell, I prefered QW rawness back in the day, and even now playing it everything just feels flawless with the correct tweaks.
> 
> 1.6 engine is flawed aswell as everyone should know.
> 
> This have nothing to about the game itself, i played 1.6 for years but there are flaws in the engine.


I haven't played quake enough to comment on that. But what about the hitboxes and engine are you referring to?

CSGO has vastly worse reg than 1.6.


----------



## treav0r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> CSGO has vastly worse reg than 1.6.


/sign
+1337

the reg in csgo is pretty inconsistent, and sometimes even not there


----------



## metal571

Even CSS felt way better in terms of reg than GO. I played all 3 CS multiplayer components recently. 1.6 is still my overall favorite and appears to be the best to test mice in. Pretty easy, for me I can just hop into a pub DM and see how aiming feels.


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> /sign
> +1337
> 
> the reg in csgo is pretty inconsistent, and sometimes even not there


Try ESEA, It's a lot better than Valves servers.


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Even CSS felt way better in terms of reg than GO. I played all 3 CS multiplayer components recently. 1.6 is still my overall favorite and appears to be the best to test mice in. Pretty easy, for me I can just hop into a pub DM and see how aiming feels.


Bad servers =! bad game.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> Bad servers =! bad game.


That's actually what I heard. People were saying that hit reg on valve's servers was goofy. They said a 128 tick server with a good connection makes it vastly better. Some say it's better than 1.6...

I wouldn't know. I can't hit anything in any of them...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> Try ESEA, It's a lot better than Valves servers.


That hasn't been my experience. I would get the exact same reg problems in ESEA and other 128tic servers that you see in all those "bad reg videos". I haven't played the game in months though, but I haven't seen any updates to the netcode either. The "hitboxes are smaller" argument some people like to throw out is not applicable because it happens on body shots at medium range too.


----------



## Aventadoor

Shut up, just play.


----------



## Sencha

I love csgo but in both CSGO and CSS I get that weird delay. Where I shoot the head and then the kill feels like it registers late throwing my game off. Never happens for me in 1.6


----------



## metal571

Yeah reg does feel more delayed at the same ping between the different games, I noticed that as well


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> CSGO has vastly worse reg than 1.6.


In ideal circumstances with a decent ping this can be said about alot of older games. Newer games do however play alot better with higher pings then older games did. Though I think the optimizations to make higher pings more playable are actually (partially) to blame.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Even CSS felt way better in terms of reg than GO. I played all 3 CS multiplayer components recently. 1.6 is still my overall favorite and appears to be the best to test mice in. Pretty easy, for me I can just hop into a pub DM and see how aiming feels.


I actually find CSGO the best one to test. Very twitchy with the ADAD and headshot hitbox and the laggier engine ---> Even the slightest bit of unresponsiveness of a mouse becomes annoying. Smoothing, etc seems to become a bigger hindrance in that engine and thus it's my way of benching mice for smoothing until someone finds an objective way to test it.


----------



## delledonne

Did nVc say if he'll be posting his review later this week on ESR?


----------



## Aventadoor

I just preordered a Aurora!
Hope he gets enough for first batch so I dont have to wait a billion years


----------



## metal571

That doesn't make sense...when you lower the input lag of an engine the mouse input lag component is simply a higher percentage of overall input lag, so it would technically annoy a lot more in 1.6.


----------



## CorruptBE

Then it might just be related to the ADADADAD playstyle of CSGO. Either way I felt having a less responsive mouse to be most annoying in that game and less in some others.

If I really want to test a mouse I always go on a TDM and force myself to go tap shoot only with an AK47. If a mouse isn't very responsive... it becomess annoying to do that.


----------



## ronal

I just preordered it.


----------



## Coreda

The official site really needs better photos, they're terribly grainy atm. Also could be improved with better alpha masking for dark backgrounds.


----------



## Ellie1982

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> I just preordered a Aurora!
> Hope he gets enough for first batch so I dont have to wait a billion years


I'm too. )))


----------



## a_ak57

From the esreality thread:
Quote:


> << Comment #129 @ 14:12 GMT, 1 November 2014 >>
> By »bst
> 
> Hi all, just a little update to let you all know how things are going!
> 
> I got the samples to inspect and was all good, apart from they forgot to put the extra mouse feet in the box, but thats been fixed now.
> 
> They are being shipped out next week by air, so its a bit later than I'd hoped but not too bad.
> 
> The mice should mostly be sent out the day after they arrive, if they arrive in the morning maybe some can be sent out the same day
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to do massdrop until after people have got their mice. So you could save money on massdrop, but if you pre-order you will get it sooner than everyone else.
> 
> I'm arranging some tourneys for TF2 and QL atm, with hopefully some CS:GO and SC2 and maybe a moba game also.
> 
> The credit card system on the ninox.org site has been a real pain to get going, I'm really sorry for those that wanted it, but it should be working next week.
> 
> Finally, thanks so much to everyone who pre-ordered, its really nice to see people still have faith in the project, I hope you enjoy the mouse as much as I have


So I guess he's getting them this week so we'll get them in a couple weeks. Also, in a comment just afterward he said that even if you preorder now you'll still be in the first batch.


----------



## Trull

I honestly don't see the point in buying the Aurora for 38€ (don't know if that includes shipping or not) when you can buy a G100s PC Bang for 15€ shipped... [for someone that doesn't mind its relatively low PCS and lack of side buttons].


----------



## Trull

[dup]


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> I honestly don't see the point in buying the Aurora for 38€ (don't know if that includes shipping or not) when you can buy a G100s PC Bang for 15€ shipped...


I wish it was that easy. If the G100 had such cord and side buttons, I'd be using one by now. So I guess I pay the extra buck for those then.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> I honestly don't see the point in buying the Aurora for 38€ (don't know if that includes shipping or not) when you can buy a G100s PC Bang for 15€ shipped...


Low PCS and lack of sidebuttons make it unusable for me.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> Low PCS and lack of sidebuttons make it unusable for me.


Yes, but in that case you wouldn't be looking at the G100s in the first place. I meant that it doesn't really make sense for someone who wouldn't mind those two negatives about the G100s (I just edited the post).


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I wish it was that easy. If the G100 had such cord and side buttons, I'd be using one by now. So I guess I pay the extra buck for those then.


I accept the side button argument (don't really know why some people say they can't live without them, though), but what's with the cord? It's just a thick regular cord, nothing's special about it, and imho a thin cord is better (less friction).


----------



## Mych

Shape, weight, possibly better main buttons.

G100s cord is stiff, not too bad imo, but I can understand why someone might not like it.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mych*
> 
> Shape, weight, possibly better main buttons.
> 
> G100s cord is stiff, not too bad imo, but I can understand why someone might not like it.


All of those things are arguable, but I doubt any of that justifies the price difference.


----------



## MasterBash

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> I honestly don't see the point in buying the Aurora for 38€ (don't know if that includes shipping or not) when you can buy a G100s PC Bang for 15€ shipped... [for someone that doesn't mind its relatively low PCS and lack of side buttons].


You know, I dont think bst has as much money as the big companies like Logitech, Razer, etc. Logitech can build their mouse for cheap considering the materials are really cheap for them for obvious reasons. Although there is no doubt bst will make a profit on that mouse, I do not believe it will be that much, unless he is able to mass produce many and reduce its cost.

You are not only buying a lightweight mouse with side buttons, you are also supporting someone who is willing to try building something that is not available out there that will help many when it comes to their specific needs. If he is able to make money, he will be able to make more and better products in the future and get himself more well known.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> You know, I dont think bst has as much money as the big companies like Logitech, Razer, etc. Logitech can build their mouse for cheap considering the materials are really cheap for them for obvious reasons. Although there is no doubt bst will make a profit on that mouse, I do not believe it will be that much, unless he is able to mass produce many and reduce its cost.
> 
> You are not only buying a lightweight mouse with side buttons, you are also supporting someone who is willing to try building something that is not available out there that will help many when it comes to their specific needs. If he is able to make money, he will be able to make more and better products in the future and get himself more well known.


Yet all of those companies have several more expensive mice than the Aurora... and you're telling me that he got the whole company going just with early pre-orders (how early and how many were they, anyway?)? Also, you're making it sound like people should buy the Aurora as crowd funding for supposedly 'better' products that don't even exist yet. And bst doesn't really have a record of being fast about making new things either.


----------



## MasterBash

Where did I say he got the company going just with early pre-orders?

Quote please, I cant see it.

Crowd funding? I dont know what you are talking about. Making products is expensive, I don't know how much bst makes but if people are not interest in his current product, I don't think he will be able to make more products. Atleast, most people wouldnt able to.

If you are happy with the G100s without side buttons, extra weight, low pcs then go for it... Hey, its inexpensive!

Companies have more expensive mice than the Aurora because they also cost more than the G100s to make and they are also a business, so they exist to make money. The G502 cost more than the G100s to make and the price they sell it at is much more expensive, too. I don't know how much the Aurora cost to make, but I am sure if it was Logitech selling it, it would be less expensive and they would still make a greater profit on it. They will be able to sell more (Logitech is a lot more well known than bst) and they are also able to purchase the materials at a cheaper cost than bst can.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> If you are happy with the G100s without side buttons, *extra weight*, low pcs then go for it... Hey, its inexpensive!


So you're saying that you know what the Aurora's weight is with the cord?


----------



## MasterBash

I am talking about the weight inside the mouse. The 13g weight. You can remove it but you got to buy more mouse feet and void your warranty. Not everyone is willing to do so. Not only that, but the mouse feet also add to the cost.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> I am talking about the weight inside the mouse. You can remove it but you got to buy more mouse feet and void your warranty. Not everyone is willing to do so. Not only that, but the mouse feet also add to the cost.


Yeah, but you forget that no one who has removed the weight inside the mouse has found that the mouse is actually better without it. Which means that the G100s' default weight is pretty close to being the comfortable minimum and the included extra weight makes sense.

[lol, all these edits are because I'm tired]


----------



## MasterBash

I still think everything is preference. Technically lower weight should be better because the mouse is easier to move, however it is possible that many people cant control the mouse properly with such low weight and like you said, it feels uncomfortable to them.

Some might like it, some might not. I don't believe everyone will tell you what they like or dont. I know if I removed it myself I probably wont rush to this forum telling you if I like it or not. Eventually, I would probably about it if there is a thread that feels relevant, but thats about it.

Personally, I am fine with my modified G502 at ~100g. I will probably still buy the Aurora because it appears interesting to me. I am probably going to wait for reviews first.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> I still think everything is preference. Technically lower weight should be better because the mouse is easier to move, however it is possible that many people cant control the mouse properly with such low weight and like you said, it feels uncomfortable to them.
> 
> Some might like it, some might not. I don't believe everyone will tell you what they like or dont. I know if I removed it myself I probably wont rush to this forum telling you if I like it or not.
> 
> Personally, I am fine with my modified G502 at ~100g. I will probably still buy the Aurora because it appears interesting to me. I am probably going to wait for reviews first.


Yeah, up to a point. Normally when people say that a lighter mouse is better, they mean lighter than 90-100g and beyond, so around the 80's.

Well, it doesn't matter anyway, cause the Aurora's cord will compensate for its low weight.


----------



## Aventadoor

I own a G100s and its really annyoing to not have side buttons.
Tho its not a bad mouse, but I just dont like it


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> I own a G100s and its really annyoing to not have side buttons.
> Tho its not a bad mouse, but I just dont like it


Why is it so annoying, if I may ask?









I'm not saying that it isn't for you, btw. Just curious.


----------



## Aventadoor

Its annoying when browsing web, and cause I use them for flash and smoke in CSGO.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Its annoying when browsing web, and cause I use them for flash and smoke in CSGO.


They seem like pretty trivial things to me (otherwise, why did you buy a G100s in the first place?), but okay.


----------



## Ihateallmice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> They seem like pretty trivial things to me (otherwise, why did you buy a G100s in the first place?), but okay.


that's nice dear.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ihateallmice*
> 
> that's nice dear.


Nice troll...

... not.


----------



## galmba

not sure why no one posted the most obvious difference -- they have two different sensors.

the G100s has 2-3 m/s max speed and the Aurora has 4-5 m/s


----------



## a_ak57

why are you so determined to get people to not want this mouse

like, what even is the point of saying "you don't need side buttons!!" as if you are actually unable to comprehend that people value things differently than you


----------



## trhead

MOUSE4 is basically my "primary" or main weapon bind in all games.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> They seem like pretty trivial things to me (otherwise, why did you buy a G100s in the first place?), but okay.


How are things that add a lot of comfort and option trivial? Browsing without side buttons is not impossible, but less comfortable and I constantly use side buttons in gaming, for tools and items, such as flashlights, NV goggles, alt fires, etc., because I play games that are a bit heavier on controls and features than Quake Live.

I could live without all this, I also could live without a scroll wheel, but why should I if there are mice with these features available. Is the scrollwheel and middle click trivial, too? Not all games are done with LMB for fire and RMB for zoom and WASD for movement and nothing more.

While at that, someone knowledgeable should put up a G100 VS. Aurora chart. Like a list with specs of both mice and what they prefer of the one over the other.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> why are you so determined to get people to not want this mouse
> 
> like, what even is the point of saying "you don't need side buttons!!" as if you are actually unable to comprehend that people value things differently than you


That's not what I said, now, is it?

I'm just interested to know what people actually use the side buttons for, to the point where they find "really annoying" not to have them.


----------



## Coreda

Currently using the FK14 the side buttons are appropriately placed, and don't interfere with the thumb placement, so they make for a useful two additional, easy to access buttons for web browsing or for general hotkeys.

If they aren't in the way I see no reason not to include them.


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> That's not what I said, now, is it?
> 
> I'm just interested to know what people actually use the side buttons for, to the point where they find "really annoying" not to have them.


Usually things like switching primary and secondary weaponsor for grenades in shooters, means you dont have to move fingers off the movement keys or needing to use your mousewheel (in my case I have mousewheel bound to other functions).


----------



## CookieBook

Really all I use mouse4 for is noclip in CS:GO


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> I'm just interested to know what people actually use the side buttons for, to the point where they find "really annoying" not to have them.


I guess it depends on what games one plays. In CS and UT I have never used them, but most of the time I played games such as oldschool tactical shooters and stealth games and you'd usually have more equipment to use there.

In Planetside 2 I used the shield, melee attack or zoom on them.
In SWAT4 having the rate of fire and flashlight, or grenades quickly accessible, without to drop movement, leaning and looking around is very useful.
In Evolve I used the wheel up/down for primary and secondary and the sidebuttons for the two other special equipment.


----------



## CorruptBE

I just miss them in general computer use. When I went through my shadowplay clips for instance: I press back/forth on M4/M5 alot in MPC-HC.

Does my head in as well when so many office mice lack sidebuttons (for actual work related reasons).


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> Really all I use mouse4 for is noclip in CS:GO


noclip?


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> noclip?


Yes, noclip. Nothing more to it.


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> Yes, noclip. Nothing more to it.


i was asking what noclip was


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> i was asking what noclip was


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=noclip


----------



## CorruptBE

Used to have noclip/drop smoke binded to sidebuttons when I did tactics with sv_cheats on. Handy if you're trying new smokes out or flatout trying to find new ones.

On the topic of the BST mouse, if the 3090 implementation is at least as good as the Savu's, I'm getting one (of all the 3090's I've tried that was my favorite one, performance wise, shape wasn't my cup of tea though).


----------



## kicksome

So when in November is this due? I'm tempted..


----------



## a_ak57

All we know is that on the 1st, BST said the mice would be shipping to him the next week and then he'd start mailing them out.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> All we know is that on the 1st, BST said the mice would be shipping to him the next week and then he'd start mailing them out.


ok sounds good thanks for the reply, I think I might wait till people are receiving their mice before I go ahead just in case


----------



## a_ak57

TBH, it's best to wait anyway to hear reports about build quality/sensor performance (i.e. the dreaded smoothing). I mean, I'm not following my own advice and preordered one, but do as I say, etc.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> TBH, it's best to wait anyway to hear reports about build quality/sensor performance (i.e. the dreaded smoothing). I mean, I'm not following my own advice and preordered one, but do as I say, etc.


yeah fair call probably more wise to do that
i have a cm storm xornet in the mail that im waiting on, so if i hate that i'll probably just get impatient and order the aurora anyway haha


----------



## detto87

After revisiting different mice over the past weeks I cannot await the arrival of the Aurora. It has so many things just done right:

1. G100S shape feels nice and very agile, but it is too /__\ in the front part and lacks a bit of butt for a good claw grip.
The Aurora seems to have those minor shape differences.

2. WMO and Intelli mice in general have one of the best glides with their 4 feet when they are proper teflon.
Too much contact results in more friction and slower glide, that's why I don't get the hype about big ass mouse feet.
The Aurora has those small teflon feet in a very good thickness.

3. Cable on WMO is ok but really not good. G100S cable the same, it's even a bit worse. FK and FK1 cable are not identical but both are good.
The Aurora seems to have a good flexible cable too.

4. Main buttons while nice and tactile on my FK and FK1 lack the quickness that I get from the G100S buttons. Those are really quick to respond and because of my grip with the mouse I don't accidentally click them.
The Aurora seems to have similar main buttons to the G100S.

5. Sensor is positioned centered and might be better positioned than on the G100s because of the increase in length.

6. Side buttons are there on a small ambidextrous mouse! Single sided! That's a big plus for me too.

7. Weight is as low as it gets with todays gaming mice. Only comparable is the G100S with weight removed. Awesome lowsens bonus.

I don't know if I forgot anything but the whole mouse in its hardware and build and propotions looks like a real winner. No other mouse can touch it if everything written above holds true.

The only thing that isn't yet clear is the sensor's performance.
I doubt that the default smoothing of the 4000DPI SROM will give me troubles when everything else just is so damn perfect.
The PCS is there. The low but not too low LOD is there.

I cannot wait.

Thanks bst!


----------



## CookieBook

I'm kinda sad it doesn't have side buttons on the other side as I am a lefty







Still curious how the PCS, Smoothing and LOD will be.


----------



## a_ak57

Well, BST said that the mice are going to be arriving in his warehouse this week, so those in the US should expect them the week after. Pretty much what I figured. Hard to believe this is actually happening. I remember hearing about this back in the day and getting interested, then writing it off as vaporware after the ten million delays/setbacks.


----------



## kicksome

I wonder if people will like it so much they'll order a 2nd one just in case


----------



## Aventadoor

The only potential downside I can see with the mice for me personally is the shape/size.
I'm not a huge fan of G100s. But I do dig the Razer Abyssus.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> I wonder if people will like it so much they'll order a 2nd one just in case


Why not? When you consider what's currently selling out there these mice can't be any worse than that







.


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> I wonder if people will like it so much they'll order a 2nd one just in case


I ordered 2. One for normal use, one for putting in a WMO shell.


----------



## a_ak57

If the Aurora's internals can be transferred into the WMO, I wonder if that means the opposite is true?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> If the Aurora's internals can be transferred into the WMO, I wonder if that means the opposite is true?


Too bad you can't get the extra buttons...


----------



## CeeSA

make sidebutton by your own.


----------



## Axaion

seems that kind of side buttons would be really annoying to use though


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> The mice arrived at the airport today, they'll be picked up soon, so hopefully will be able to send out orders before the end of the week


Just keeping this thread updated. Anyone interested in a Ninox club?


----------



## Maximillion

Well since the mice finally arrived I said screw it and ordered one. Simply too much interest to hold me back. And now the waiting game...


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Well since the mice finally arrived I said screw it and ordered one. Simply too much interest to hold me back. And now the waiting game...


Anyone here on OCN who gets theirs, PLEASE post some pics and some rudimentary comments about their latest purchase. We need all to see that this is indeed REAL







.


----------



## Coreda

inb4 another delay


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> inb4 another delay


That would be something considering he actually got the mice and is now going to be shipping them out.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Anyone here on OCN who gets theirs, PLEASE post some pics and some rudimentary comments about their latest purchase. We need all to see that this is indeed REAL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I may post some pics, but won't bother with impressions since I'm frankly way too casual to say anything of use.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Anyone here on OCN who gets theirs, PLEASE post some pics and some rudimentary comments about their latest purchase. We need all to see that this is indeed REAL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I will post pics and first impressions for sure when I get mine! I was 35th to order one and live in Europe so I should get mine fairly quickly.


----------



## paers

Will post something hopefully useful once I get mine. Ordered relatively early and living in Europe as well.


----------



## kicksome

Have these been sent out yet?


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Have these been sent out yet?


I don't know about others but mine isn't.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I don't know about others but mine isn't.


fair enough, in either getting a Logitech g302 or this mouse, once he starts sending them out I might buy


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I don't know about others but mine isn't.


Same here, haven't heard anything from him about sending out my order.

Would appreciate getting some kind of postal note letting me know that I am about to receive something awesome via post







.


----------



## delledonne

Quote:


> By bluedot »bst - Reply to #254
> Its not going to be much longer now, just waiting to hear back from the warehouse today, will report back as soon as I know more!


Looks like they should be shipped out by today finally.


----------



## turnschuh

Yupeee! Hope he gives us an update later today.


----------



## delledonne

I guess I shouldn't say they should be shipped out by today since he never said that, it's just before he said that once he gets them, they'll either be shipped out that morning or the next day. Then it turned into by the end of the week. Now it's Monday and he posts that update, so I really hope that "just waiting to hear back from the warehouse today" means they'll be shipping them out by today or tomorrow.


----------



## a_ak57

I'm going to laugh if it turns out the mouse has huge QC issues or something, just that last thing to bother everyone after all the delays. Well, as long as the one I'm getting is one of the good ones. >_>


----------



## delledonne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I'm going to laugh if it turns out the mouse has huge QC issues or something, just that last thing to bother everyone after all the delays. Well, as long as the one I'm getting is one of the good ones. >_>


lol I really hope not, been waiting too long. The only issue I've seen was when nVc tested the mouse-- which was one of the side buttons activating if you squeezed the side of the shell really hard. He said it's not an issue unless you purposely squeeze it that hard, but just thought he'd bring it up.


----------



## kicksome

I feel like if I dont buy one i'll miss out on an awesome mouse and they'll never be put into production again.
Then if i love it and mine dies.. I wouldnt be able to get another haha

so how much did people pay for this may i ask?


----------



## delledonne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> I feel like if I dont buy one i'll miss out on an awesome mouse and they'll never be put into production again.
> Then if i love it and mine dies.. I wouldnt be able to get another haha
> 
> so how much did people pay for this may i ask?


Mine was about $42 + ~$20 shipping to the US.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> so how much did people pay for this may i ask?


I haven't actually preordered it (waiting for reviews) but I'd have to pay 37.99€ plus 10€ shipping.


----------



## trhead

Mine was $70 AUD shipped.


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Mine was $70 AUD shipped.


That's about €50 or $60 right?


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> That's about €50 or $60 right?


This is a copy/paste:

Grand Total (Incl.Tax) €46.66


----------



## povohat

Mine is €83.32 for 2 mice and 4 sets of skates, to Australia.


----------



## ramraze

Has anyone actually recieved one already besides the beta testers? If not then most likely we need a lot more patience


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Has anyone actually recieved one already besides the beta testers? If not then most likely we need a lot more patience


No, as someone mentioned a bit earlier BST hasn't started shipping them out as he's waiting to hear back from his warehouse. I don't expect him to start shipping until the end of this week, maybe next.


----------



## MLJS54

Can someone give me the short version of what makes this mouse special? Seems like a nicely shaped, lightweight mouse that uses Omrons/3090 sensor.

I'm willing to give it a try at ~$60 shipped to the US.


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MLJS54*
> 
> nicely shaped, lightweight mouse that uses Omrons/3090 sensor.


Exactly that


----------



## Coreda

It also gets brought up regularly in discussions due to it being seen as the 'what we want without the crap' mouse, and the long delays have only added to the anticipation.

I'll be waiting for reviews.


----------



## CookieBook

In the end it all comes down to sensor "smoothing/feel".


----------



## mksteez

Its on massdrop right now

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ninox-aurora-mouse

waiting for reviews..


----------



## a_ak57

The hell, compared to what I'm paying for my preorder it'd be $20 cheaper if the massdrop hits the lowest number and still $10 less even if it stays at the highest. I expected the MD to show up considerably later or I'd have waited. :/


----------



## Tinslet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> so how much did people pay for this may i ask?


Quantity: 1
Subtotal: $34.99
Shipping: $6.70 (shipping may vary)
Total (USD): $41.69










Just ordered from MassDrop: http://dro.ps/b/C3pzpoF

It's going to hit lowest price point anyways soon.

Just incase anyone is going to cry over the savings they could have made if they waited, it's likely orders from MD won't get shipped until next year (Jan/Feb)


----------



## Coreda

It's on MassDrop??!

Must....resist....buying...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tinslet*
> 
> Just incase anyone is going to cry over the savings they could have made if they waited, it's likely orders from MD won't get shipped until next year (Jan/Feb)


Hmm, I'll have a think about this.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mksteez*
> 
> Its on massdrop right now
> 
> https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ninox-aurora-mouse
> 
> waiting for reviews..


They're not shipping to BR, as always...


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> They're not shipping to BR, as always...


BR?


----------



## woll3

Brasil, i would assume.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> It's on MassDrop??!
> 
> Must....resist....buying...
> Hmm, I'll have a think about this.


Thanks bud for posting it here, just bought another two more of these babies







.

In total I should have about 4 coming my way, because I want more back-ups when my first 3 die on me plus I can disembowel a couple to replace in future housings.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> BR?


Brazil


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Thanks bud for posting it here, just bought another two more of these babies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> In total I should have about 4 coming my way, because I want more back-ups when my first 3 die on me plus I can disembowel a couple to replace in future housings.


You have high hopes I see...


----------



## Coreda

I c u









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> You have high hopes I see...


Was going to say, 3 sounds a _bit_ much.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Brazil


Aren't you the unfortunate soul that didn't get a mouse after months of waiting?


----------



## CookieBook

€35 is a steal, the only reason I'm not buying it yet is because of the 4k dpi rom. Don't wanna get stuck with a lousy mouse.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Aren't you the unfortunate soul that didn't get a mouse after months of waiting?


Yep, it's me. 104 days and no FK1 yet =/


----------



## Tinslet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tinslet*
> 
> Quantity: 1
> Subtotal: $34.99
> Shipping: $6.70 (shipping may vary)
> Total (USD): $41.69
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just ordered from MassDrop: http://dro.ps/b/C3pzpoF


Nice!!

The Drop has hit the lowest price point, great work to all the supporters!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> They're not shipping to BR, as always...


Have you looked into a forward shipping company? (Package gets delivered to a US based company who then forwards the package to your address). Considering the discounted price drop you still might end up being able to buy the mouse cheaper this way.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> Was going to say, 3 sounds a _bit_ much.


Because this is an individual who set about making a mouse from scratch, by himself - you just have to support. You keep forgetting that for the past 10 years or so the huge million dollar corporations have ignored our pleas upon making a decent gaming mouse.

Despite Logitech, SteelSeries and Razer trying their hardest to release any decent products, I'm kind of hoping this guy from nowhere jumps in to beat the living crap out of them. At least in producing a mouse that works as intended.

Anytime someone goes it alone against these so-called giants of industry, deserves my respect and never ending adoration. There are all too few people anywhere in this world that would do something like this and I truly hope he delivers something special here.

To let everyone here on OCN know that I'm not a stooge for this guy and I have never even spoke to him or received any monetary compensation to promote his device.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tinslet*
> 
> Have you looked into a forward shipping company? (Package gets delivered to a US based company who then forwards the package to your address). Considering the discounted price drop you still might end up being able to buy the mouse cheaper this way.


Yes I did, but I'm not sure if I'll do that. I checked the price with a good company and the total was 93usd (with priority mail shipping).
Meh, I don't want to pay 93usd + 60% of taxes for a mouse.


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Because this is an individual who set about making a mouse from scratch, by himself - you just have to support.


Oh sure, the replies though were about the part expecting 3 to fail on you


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> Oh sure, the replies though were about the part expecting 3 to fail on you


Then you don't want to know how many G400's I've got as backup







?


----------



## Coreda

lol, taking mouse redundancy to the next level.


----------



## thizito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Aren't you the unfortunate soul that didn't get a mouse after months of waiting?


Here from Brazil, waiting bst mouse too. XD

i hope it comes.. sometimes shipping fails


----------



## Ino.

Joined the massdrop too. Not really intending to use the mouse, but somehow the project should be supported.


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Joined the massdrop too. Not really intending to use the mouse, but somehow the project should be supported.


Might aswell sens him the money and till him to keep the mouse...


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Then you don't want to know how many G400's I've got as backup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


How many then?

I'm personally gonna wait a bit and see what people say. If it's good I might get one. Not yet sold on the srom/implementation either


----------



## Lass3

Where can i get this mouse in Europe?


----------



## Susiria

Pleasantly surprised to open my inbox and see that Massdrop was featuring this mouse. Unfortunately I'll pass as I joined the $50 Avior when that one was on Massdrop. Ah well, maybe next time...


----------



## the1onewolf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Thanks bud for posting it here, just bought another two more of these babies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> In total I should have about 4 coming my way, because I want more back-ups when my first 3 die on me plus I can disembowel a couple to replace in future housings.


4 of these ... in addition to all the mice I know you already have. Good thing you aren't one of those crazy keyboard people


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lass3*
> 
> Where can i get this mouse in Europe?


Ninox.org


----------



## Lass3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> Ninox.org


Thanks


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> Might aswell sens him the money and till him to keep the mouse...


No, because I wanted it in my collection anyway, couldn't justify spending too much on it though while not using it.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> No, because I wanted it in my collection anyway, couldn't justify spending too much on it though while not using it.


I think you should atleast try it. Would love it if you could make a review of it as well.


----------



## AnimalK

I ordered one as well to support the cause and valiant effort. Also I still have hope that this mouse will turn out to be good.

I doubt it will dethrone my FK1 but I'm still hopeful.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Joined the massdrop too. Not really intending to use the mouse, but somehow the project should be supported.


That's good, you're making up for me being a bad person who canceled my preorder to join the massdrop. But $20, man.


----------



## Tinslet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lass3*
> 
> Where can i get this mouse in Europe?


You need to purchase it online.

Currently you have two options:

The official site: http://ninox.org/

Or MassDrop: http://dro.ps/b/C3pzpoF
(which at the moment is cheaper because of the group buy discount - this only runs for a limited time though)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnimalK*
> 
> I ordered one as well to support the cause and valiant effort.


Support the cause!








#SupportNinox

The Aurora may not have the latest or the "best" sensor available but he is certainty on the right track in terms of mouse development.

I remember reading older posts from bst saying he was planning to release a mousepad and an improved mouse from the help of the funding he will receive from the Aurora sales. And with the community feedback (which he listens to unlike other mouse companies) I'm defiantly excited to see what he can come up with for his future mouse products.

So let's all get behind it for the greater good of the mouse community. I'm excited to see what he has in store for us in the future.


----------



## RentoN

The massdrop actually made me buy the mouse now instead of waiting for reviews first.
Only 35€ with shipping, which is a really good price for a gaming mouse imo and more 16€ less than what I'd have to pay for preordering it from the ninox site.
Hope I won't be disappointed, especially since I really have high hopes for this mouse.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I think you should atleast try it. Would love it if you could make a review of it as well.


I will definitely try it, review too if the mass drop shipments are not far later than other shipments.

I think it will be a good mouse, it's just that there are many good alternatives out there now.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I think it will be a good mouse, it's just that there are many good alternatives out there now.


True. Bst could have met a much bigger market if he hadn't gone MIA and released the mouse like half a year earlier.
Nowadays there are a couple of mice that have just about anything this one does.
Except maybe that the aurora is lighter and cheaper than most other options.


----------



## MLJS54

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> True. Bst could have met a much bigger market if he hadn't gone MIA and released the mouse like half a year earlier.
> Nowadays there are a couple of mice that have just about anything this one does.
> Except maybe that the aurora is lighter and cheaper than most other options.


Lighter
Cheaper
Rubber top (I think?)
3090 is still a fantastic sensor
Omrons, which look like they will work very well with that shell design
Wish it had a little less bling - not a big fan of the logo/lighting









Anyway, looks very interesting and I went ahead and ordered it on Massdrop.


----------



## Coreda

The logo is okay, but coming from a light-less Zowie the colorful base is a little much - can't it be turned off though? Seem to remember some setting on a screenshot with that option.

Edit: here










The other thing I'd like to know is how the side buttons feel. It's hard to tell from the screenshots.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> The logo is okay, but coming from a light-less Zowie the colorful base is a little much - can't it be turned off though? Seem to remember some setting on a screenshot with that option.
> 
> Edit: here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The other thing I'd like to know is how the side buttons feel. It's hard to tell from the screenshots.


brightness off/pulse off is the no led option, i will be doing this as well.

he posted a couple days ago saying the mice were at the warehouse, i wonder when we'll get them.
saw it on mass drop today too with a nice updated close up shot of the mouse, looks really good.
the coating looks a lot less rubbery then i thought it would be which is a good thing (for me anyway).

no updates since then.


----------



## Coreda

There was an imgur album that compared it to the Zowie FK in size from various angles, can't find it atm. Looked like it could get dust and debris in the grooves of the shell easily. Will be looking forward to user photos once it ships.


----------



## mksteez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> There was an imgur album that compared it to the Zowie FK in size from various angles, can't find it atm. Looked like it could get dust and debris in the grooves of the shell easily. Will be looking forward to user photos once it ships.


Link it please if you find it!

Does this mice have on-board memory?
For macros and such..


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mksteez*
> 
> Link it please if you find it!


Here it is. On the right is the Ninox Velocity prototype. Mind you, it was a test version in these shots.

And the FK images (click for full versions):


----------



## chrislee11

Soooooooo if we order on the ninox site will we get it faster than the massdrop deal? Just asking because I didn't preorder it and the massdrop one won't ship out until Dec. 20th.

If I could get it earlier than the massdrop one I would probably shell out the extra money but was wondering if he is only shipping soon to the people that pre-ordered it. If that's the case I will probably just do the massdrop one.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Joined the massdrop eager to see how I find the shape not really interested in the sensor though but would be nice to have, I am a supporter for all his effort BST was just unlucky the 3090 went EOL.


----------



## resis

Tell me more about that mass drop thing, please. What do I do, how and when? How do I pay there? When will it ship?


----------



## the1onewolf

Do you like not know how to read or something?


----------



## delledonne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrislee11*
> 
> Soooooooo if we order on the ninox site will we get it faster than the massdrop deal? Just asking because I didn't preorder it and the massdrop one won't ship out until Dec. 20th.
> 
> If I could get it earlier than the massdrop one I would probably shell out the extra money but was wondering if he is only shipping soon to the people that pre-ordered it. If that's the case I will probably just do the massdrop one.


As of right now, I honestly couldn't tell ya. For those of us that preordered the mouse awhile ago, he said we'd get first dibs and will ship them out as soon as he receives them. As far as this massdrop suddenly going on, I have no idea if anybody else will get them sooner by preordering through the ninox website still or if it'll take as long to receive them as you would by buying through the massdrop. He hasn't commented on it yet.


----------



## Tinslet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Tell me more about that mass drop thing, please. What do I do, how and when? How do I pay there? When will it ship?


MassDrop is a group buy site. Massdrop helps people buy together as a group to get awesome prices for things they want. The bigger the group, the better the price!

You need to register on MassDrop: http://dro.ps/b/C3pzpoF

View the link to see the product (after logging in)

Payment methods:

Paypal
Credit card
Bitcoins
Quote:


> When will I be charged?
> 
> You will be charged when the group buy ends (November 30th, 2014 at the latest) and only at the lowest unlocked price.


Quote:


> Shipping
> 
> Domestic and international orders will be shipped by Massdrop.
> 
> Estimated shipping date: December 20th, 2014.
> 
> After the drop ends, check the discussion page for updates.


----------



## karod

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> The massdrop actually made me buy the mouse now instead of waiting for reviews first.
> Only 35€ with shipping, which is a really good price for a gaming mouse imo and more 16€ less than what I'd have to pay for preordering it from the ninox site.
> Hope I won't be disappointed, especially since I really have high hopes for this mouse.


You need to add VAT to the 35€ (which your customs people will do).
So for Germany that is an additional 19%

In total that makes 35*1,19=~42€
Still a nice price.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tinslet*
> 
> MassDrop is a group buy site. Massdrop helps people buy together as a group to get awesome prices for things they want. The bigger the group, the better the price!
> 
> You need to register on MassDrop: http://dro.ps/b/C3pzpoF
> 
> View the link to see the product (after logging in)
> 
> Payment methods:
> 
> Paypal
> Credit card
> Bitcoins


Thanks, already ordered. 20 Dec is harsh though.


----------



## Poopsticker

Does anyone know if the Ninox Aurora's left/right mouse clicks will be more relative to easily rapidly click fast such as the new Logitech G302, or something similar along those lines (quick responsive clicks)


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*


What exactly does the "Enable Smooth Filtering" button do...

Is that turning on/off something in A3090 firmware, or just applying software interpolation to the mouse for basically no reason.


----------



## Axaion

That glossy plastic on the sides of the scroll wheel


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> What exactly does the "Enable Smooth Filtering" button do...
> 
> Is that turning on/off something in A3090 firmware, or just applying software interpolation to the mouse for basically no reason.


I think its the software thing. Bst would have mentioned it otherwise, after all the *****ing about the smoothing issue.

Btw, this is a very old picture. At least the angle snapping option got already removed.

edit:
Just opened the driver (v1.2) and it got all removed. Even custom DPI:

http://pic-hoster.net/view/59162/ScreenShot336.jpg.htm

Thats a shame. The logitech G3 had custom DPI steps of 50, and some of them where really usable (eg. 1550) To many games which lack a proper sensitivity scaler. That was also a reason i thought the bst mouse was cool.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> What exactly does the "Enable Smooth Filtering" button do...
> 
> Is that turning on/off something in A3090 firmware, or just applying software interpolation to the mouse for basically no reason.


Probably is an extra layer of software on the mcu that will even out the signal noise.


----------



## aLv1080

Just updating my case, someone told me to email massdrop asking about shipping to Brazil and if it was somehow possible. So I did, and that is the result:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







rip


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Just updating my case, someone told me to email massdrop asking about shipping to Brazil and if it was somehow possible. So I did, and that is the result:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rip


I'm just imagining this being your reaction while reading that: 

This dude just can't catch a break


----------



## Sosuke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I'm just imagining this being your reaction while reading that:
> 
> This dude just can't catch a break


lol'd

UL aLv1080


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I'm just imagining this being your reaction while reading that:
> 
> This dude just can't catch a break


It was pretty much like this:


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> ...and it got all removed. Even custom DPI:
> 
> Thats a shame. The logitech G3 had custom DPI steps of 50, and some of them where really usable (eg. 1550) To many games which lack a proper sensitivity scaler. That was also a reason i thought the bst mouse was cool.


That was the feature I was looking for the most, but BST said he just couldn't make it, so he had to drop it. Shame, but can't change it.


----------



## turnschuh

Having DPI steps in increments of 50 makes only sense with a sensor which natively supports it. (3310, 3366, etc)


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Having DPI steps in increments of 50 makes only sense with a sensor which natively supports it. (3310, 3366, etc)


Yes it makes sense. I'd rather use a dpi mode which just isn't as clean, smooth or raw as being forced to use a completely different sensitivity eg. for trying out games, which only have a 10 notch sensitivity slider (F.E.A.R anyone?)

But yea on a few mice, where the only native mode already feels garbage, i'm with you.

Logitech G3 and especially the original G9 had tons of usable dpi settings.


----------



## CorruptBE

Most of these games can be fixed with some .ini / .cfg editing.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Yes it makes sense. I'd rather use a dpi mode which just isn't as clean, smooth or raw as being forced to use a completely different sensitivity eg. for trying out games, which only have a 10 notch sensitivity slider (F.E.A.R anyone?)


Ah yea, makes sense for games like this. Didnt read it right.


----------



## kornedbeefy

So how do you guys think this will measure up against my Roccat Kone Military and Logitech G502?

I'm a mouse junkie and considering pulling the trigger on the massdrop deal but with the seasonal steam and other digital download sales coming up I not sure its a good idea.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Yes it makes sense. I'd rather use a dpi mode which just isn't as clean, smooth or raw as being forced to use a completely different sensitivity eg. for trying out games, which only have a 10 notch sensitivity slider (F.E.A.R anyone?).


This has always been the issue as well. Sometimes even 400 DPI is not low enough.


----------



## metal571

Oh god FEAR, my first online FPS had one of the worst sensitivity sliders ever. I thought low was 2000 CPI with no notches but that's more like 10cm or faster. That game destroyed my sense of what a useful sensitivity was early on in my time playing FPS. Yep 400 CPI isn't always low enough.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kornedbeefy*
> 
> I'm a mouse junkie and considering pulling the trigger on the massdrop deal but with the seasonal steam and other digital download sales coming up I not sure its a good idea.


Amen.


----------



## Aventadoor

With BST you never know. You might not get ur mice before after christmas, so u might aswell buy those games instead


----------



## a_ak57

I guess we should have known better than to think it was actually happening now. I'm sure BST has issues to contend with, but there really isn't any reason he couldn't have visited ESR even once in the past week to say "yeah there was another problem, gonna be a delay" or to just stop telling people "yup, you'll get them next week" when that's the best case scenario where everything goes perfectly. Then again, lack of communication and broken promises have been this mouse in a nutshell so I guess I shouldn't expect much.


----------



## turnschuh

:/
Well i wont cancel the order like others did on ESR untill bst himself says he abords the project for what ever reason. I can wait for the mouse. But yea, it would be nice if he could write something, giving some update.
On the other hand i could understand if he s tired again because of those ESR dummies and their silly "jokes". He should start posting here.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I guess we should have known better than to think it was actually happening now. I'm sure BST has issues to contend with, but there really isn't any reason he could haven't visited ESR even once in the past week to say "yeah there was another problem, gonna be a delay" or to just stop telling people "yup, you'll get them next week" when that's the best case scenario where everything goes perfectly. Then again, lack of communication and broken promises have been this mouse in a nutshell so I guess I shouldn't expect much.


Yeah it held me off from ordering one. I don't like the way the projects been handled so didnt want to jump in at all at this stage. Best of luck to him though and those that have ordered. Once they are out there properly I'll check out the mouse and maybe buy one.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Yeah it held me off from ordering one. I don't like the way the projects been handled so didnt want to jump in at all at this stage. Best of luck to him though and those that have ordered. *Once they are out there properly I'll check out the mouse and maybe buy one*.


thats how i feel, once people start getting them i might buy one, but not just yet


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> :/
> Well i wont cancel the order like others did on ESR...


Why did they cancel?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Yeah it held me off from ordering one. I don't like the way the projects been handled so didnt want to jump in at all at this stage. Best of luck to him though and those that have ordered. Once they are out there properly I'll check out the mouse and maybe buy one.


For me its the curiosity, even if the mouse will turn into dust upon unpacking, I wont rage, because after all this time waiting I just want to have it. If it will break fast though... I hate RMA ordeals.

The Massdrop thing may even actually get me this mouse for less than if ordering directly from the site (I really hope not at BST's costs), so I don't see me being disappointed about things that I'm prepared for.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Why did they cancel?
> For me its the curiosity, even if the mouse will turn into dust upon unpacking, I wont rage, because after all this time waiting I just want to have it. If it will break fast though... I hate RMA ordeals.
> 
> The Massdrop thing may even actually get me this mouse for less than if ordering directly from the site (I really hope not at BST's costs), so I don't see me being disappointed about things that I'm prepared for.


I canceled too, I pre-ordered October 6th its almost December. I'm just gonna use the money to get a G302.

The dude should have never put pre-orders up until he had the mice in his possession ready to ship out.


----------



## a_ak57

Eh, putting preorders up without having the mice ready to ship is fine (I mean at that point they're just orders, not preorders) but he should have just given a more realistic date ie. "i dunno, hopefully winter."


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Why did they cancel?


Probably because they think they would "teach him a lesson" by doing that and/or are just pissed that he isnt communicating atm.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Probably because they think they would "teach him a lesson" by doing that and/or are just pissed that he isnt communicating atm.


well i mean, hes pretty much known for his lack of communication at this point (i.e. disappearing for the better part of a year) and im sure me and the few other people that canceled aren't really making enough of a statement to hinder his progress (whatever that is). I just have better use for the money now instead of giving it to him, like, giving it to logitech instead.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kornedbeefy*
> 
> So how do you guys think this will measure up against my Roccat Kone Military and Logitech G502?


The sensor won't have the native 50dpi steps that those other two have. And most likely the KPM sensor will remain superior.

BST had a poor understanding of the whole "smoothing" thing, so I doubt his sensor will perform as well or better than the KPM.

Only the shape/weight of the mouse interests me.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> I canceled too, I pre-ordered October 6th its almost December. I'm just gonna use the money to get a G302.
> 
> The dude should have never put pre-orders up until he had the mice in his possession ready to ship out.


A pre-order is a pre-order. As far as I know he said he'd receive and ship them in November, hence I did not pre-order and waited, so nothing to be bitter about for me.

Granted that might have meant that he'd be out of stock, but I didn't think of that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The sensor won't have the native 50dpi steps that those other two have. And most likely the KPM sensor will remain superior.
> 
> BST had a poor understanding of the whole "smoothing" thing, so I doubt his sensor will perform as well or better than the KPM.
> 
> *Only the shape/weight of the mouse interests me*.


Oh yeah. I accepted the lack of 50dpi steps and hope sensor performance is, you know, just good, but there is more to this than that. The shape, weight, feet, cord, even coating. This mouse is, or initially was like a catalogue of do want features. It couldn't hold all the promises, but kept the most. I hope the reality will live up to it though.

When BST disappeared and came back, I really, REALLY hoped he'd come back with the 3310 in it. Shame, would have been the nearly perfect mouse.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Oh yeah. I accepted the lack of 50dpi steps and hope sensor performance is, you know, just good, but there is more to this than that. The shape, weight, feet, cord, even coating. This mouse is, or initially was like a catalogue of do want features. It couldn't hold all the promises, but kept the most. I hope the reality will live up to it though.
> 
> When BST disappeared and came back, I really, REALLY hoped he'd come back with the 3310 in it. Shame, would have been the nearly perfect mouse.


It's more than just a sensor though, and that's why I don't have high hopes for the performance of his sensor. Because I don't think he had/has a clue as to what makes a sensor better than another.

Take the 3310 sensors. The KPM is significantly better than the avior7000, rival, and FK1. Every manufacturer implements the sensor differently.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> A pre-order is a pre-order. As far as I know he said he'd receive and ship them in November, hence I did not pre-order and waited, so nothing to be bitter about for me.


It's not that I'm bitter but at this point I have to wait for whats now a sub par mouse to get shipped over to me from Europe and I've already been waiting 2 months (not to mention all the hyped wait time since he announced the project, what, 3 years ago?).
Not to mention the way overpriced price I had to pay for it (mainly because of the shipping to get here), I can still buy the G302 and have $10 left over with the money I spent on the Aurora.

Its just not worth at this point.

I'd be down to support his next project or something but this is a joke now.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's more than just a sensor though, and that's why I don't have high hopes for the performance of his sensor. Because I don't think he had/has a clue as to what makes a sensor better than another.


Then we shall wait for the hate.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> It's not that I'm bitter but at this point I have to wait for whats now a sub par mouse to get shipped over to me from Europe and I've already been waiting 2 months (not to mention all the hyped wait time since he announced the project, what, 3 years ago?).
> Not to mention the way overpriced price I had to pay for it (mainly because of the shipping to get here), I can still buy the G302 and have $10 left over with the money I spent on the Aurora.
> 
> Its just not worth at this point.
> 
> I'd be down to support his next project or something but this is a joke now.


I agree actually. The higher price is, even if necessary for him, a bit questionable. Mouse is outdated and quality performance is even unknown at this point. I even played with the thought to just let it go at some point, but as far as I can tell, the community asked and begged for it and this display of interest was part of what kept him going (I guess), so I feel like I kind of owe it.

Though this would probably not be reason enough to actually make the purchase, but each time I am at a store and put my hand on a G100, I melt, but no side buttons and no good cord equals no use and no buy. Aurora is just too unique for me at this point, so I have to try it, I owe it to myself.


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's more than just a sensor though, and that's why I don't have high hopes for the performance of his sensor. Because I don't think he had/has a clue as to what makes a sensor better than another.
> 
> Take the 3310 sensors. The KPM is significantly better than the avior7000, rival, and FK1. Every manufacturer implements the sensor differently.


I tried a KPM at my local computer shop and I did not think it performed better than my FK1 at home. Can you share with us why the KPM is better in your view or maybe point me to somewhere that explains your reasoning? If it makes it easier I am also a long time CS player.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnimalK*
> 
> I tried a KPM at my local computer shop and I did not think it performed better than my FK1 at home. Can you share with us why the KPM is better in your view or maybe point me to somewhere that explains your reasoning? If it makes it easier I am also a long time CS player.


There was a bad firmware version that had a long click/input delay. http://cdn.overclock.net/9/98/9825c1e0_inputlagmouses.png

Better as in snappier, crisper, more precise/accurate.

Most non MLT04 gaming sensors released in the past 10 years have had a bunch of artificial processing that people have been calling "smoothing". The KPM has less of it, but not as good as the MLT04 yet.


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> There was a bad firmware version that had a long click/input delay. http://cdn.overclock.net/9/98/9825c1e0_inputlagmouses.png
> 
> Better as in snappier, crisper, more precise/accurate.
> 
> Most non MLT04 gaming sensors released in the past 10 years have had a bunch of artificial processing that people have been calling "smoothing". The KPM has less of it, but not as good as the MLT04 yet.


Thanks. When I tried the KPM, click delay was not something I noticed if there was one. I was paying attention to the tracking and in my mind the FK1 feels more natural. I think I'll swing my my shop and try it again.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's more than just a sensor though, and that's why I don't have high hopes for the performance of his sensor. Because I don't think he had/has a clue as to what makes a sensor better than another.
> 
> Take the 3310 sensors. The KPM is significantly better than the avior7000, rival, and FK1. Every manufacturer implements the sensor differently.


I'm curious to see what you think about the 3.38 firmware for the A7K, if you didn't sell it already.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnimalK*
> 
> Thanks. When I tried the KPM, click delay was not something I noticed if there was one. I was paying attention to the tracking and in my mind the FK1 feels more natural. I think I'll swing my my shop and try it again.


I'm guessing that the reported delay is what was making the mouse feel bad for people, because there have been a number of other people who've said they had the same experience as you. And there are a number of others who concur with my experience. Since we know there was a bad firmware version, that's the best guess we have ATM for the difference in experiences. If you go to the KPM thread most of them agree with mine.

So you only tested the mouse in the shop? In the windows environment only then? Because what I'm talking about is felt pretty much solely in the FPS environment, especially in CS 1.6.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> I'm curious to see what you think about the 3.38 firmware for the A7K, if you didn't sell it already.


Yeah I was curious about that update as well. Unfortunately I return all the mice after I finish testing.


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I'm guessing that the reported delay is what was making the mouse feel bad for people, because there have been a number of other people who've said they had the same experience as you. And there are a number of others who concur with my experience. Since we know there was a bad firmware version, that's the best guess we have ATM for the difference in experiences. If you go to the KPM thread most of them agree with mine.
> 
> So you only tested the mouse in the shop? In the windows environment only then? Because what I'm talking about is felt pretty much solely in the FPS environment, especially in CS 1.6.


I will check out the KPM thread. I tested the mouse on a demo high performance gaming machine on the windows desktop as it had no CS of any kind installed.

I have an eye-ball test I came up with to test mice on windows (not precise at all but I feel it has some merit):
Without going into too much detail, I turn Windows precision off and cursor speed ratio to 1 (middle). Mouse is usually set to 400 or 800 dpi.
I then make patterns with icons on the desktop which I must circle around or navigate between at low and high speed.
Not precise at all but I have been doing this for so long that I know what to expect.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, that's not gonna cut it.

Desktop performance has little to no bearing on 3D FPS game performance. It's a completely different environment.


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, that's not gonna cut it.
> 
> Desktop performance has little to no bearing on 3D FPS game performance. It's a completely different environment.


Really? The mouse events go through the same driver which runs on the same OS kernel in the same mode. What else is there?

The only difference I can think of is that the memory bus is usually a traffic jam when gaming.


----------



## ramraze

Tried the kpm 6-7 weeks ago and compared to the rest of the bunch, it felt the worst. I did update the firmware, so I don't know if there has been any development.

The best feeling I got was with FK1 and rival.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Tried the kpm 6-7 weeks ago and compared to the rest of the bunch, it felt the worst. I did update the firmware, so I don't know if there has been any development.
> 
> The best feeling I got was with FK1 and rival.


This reflects my experience, FK1 and Rival felt best out of the 3310 mice I tried.

But then the G302 currently feels best, if only by a slight bit over the FK1.


----------



## Lass3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> This reflects my experience, FK1 and Rival felt best out of the 3310 mice I tried.
> 
> But then the G302 currently feels best, if only by a slight bit over the FK1.


What kind of games are you playing? Is the G302 actually good for fingertip/clawgrip? Shape looks a little weird, but I might try it out.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnimalK*
> 
> Really? The mouse events go through the same driver which runs on the same OS kernel in the same mode. What else is there?
> 
> The only difference I can think of is that the memory bus is usually a traffic jam when gaming.


Something to do with what's in here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1251156/an-overview-of-mouse-technology/0_50#user_v - radians and all that. Sensitivity in 3D and 2D environments work differently.


----------



## discoprince

currently the Avior 7k @ 800dpi/1000hz (with 3.38fw) feels tighter and more precise than the FK1 with same settings. The FK1 feels more raw but is lacking the precision.

source: i own both.

but none of this matters because this thread is about BST's mouse, not what 3310 sensor feels like the MLT04.


----------



## CorruptBE

I own both and I feel exactly the opposite but my Avior seems to show signs of having more prediction then the FK1.


----------



## Nilizum

Meanwhile, at Ninox...


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Meanwhile, at Ninox...


r0ach is testing the mouse?!?


----------



## Ukkooh

Somone posted this in the ESR thread. Is bst dead?


----------



## povohat

I checked my IRC when I saw that posted, and he was only 9 hours idle by my count. Not out of the ordinary for any normal IRC user to leave their computer on and connected while they are out or sleeping.


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> 
> 
> Somone posted this in the ESR thread. Is bst dead?


Guy idles on IRC for a few days... is pronounced dead. Lol.


----------



## Aventadoor

He is probably a drug lord and got caught.


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> He is probably a drug lord and got caught.


This is the most reasonable assumption. Probably trying to pay his way out as we speak.


----------



## jaffa2843

Please don't start this ESR kidstuff here...


----------



## jcwc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I own both and I feel exactly the opposite but my Avior seems to show signs of having more prediction then the FK1.


What firmware are you using with your Avior?


----------



## RentoN

Anyone got his aurora jet?
Buyed via massdrop. They only start shipping after the thing is over, right?
Probably will have to wait for another 10 days then


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Anyone got his aurora jet?
> Buyed via massdrop. They only start shipping after the thing is over, right?
> Probably will have to wait for another 10 days then


he hasn't updated or said when hes going to ship them out.
standard for him at this point in time.

however I wasn't aware about the massdrop thing where they don't get shipped out until the drops over, perhaps that's what hes waiting for.


----------



## Poopsticker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> he hasn't updated or said when hes going to ship them out.
> standard for him at this point in time.
> 
> however I wasn't aware about the massdrop thing where they don't get shipped out until the drops over, perhaps that's what hes waiting for.


omg, never thought of that. Let's hope you're right.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> he hasn't updated or said when hes going to ship them out.
> standard for him at this point in time.
> 
> however I wasn't aware about the massdrop thing where they don't get shipped out until the drops over, perhaps that's what hes waiting for.


Lol that really isn't a surprise with the guys past behavior.
Now he'll go MIA for 6 month again.
Would feel really stupid for trusting him after the first time.
Was really surprised how well he got away with it and how few people said stuff like "don't buy from this guy! he messed up before, can't be trusted blabla"
Maybe massdrop already has their auroras. I really hope so.


----------



## a_ak57

Eh, we might as
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Anyone got his aurora jet?
> Buyed via massdrop. They only start shipping after the thing is over, right?
> Probably will have to wait for another 10 days then


Sorry to break it to you, but the massdrop was never even planned to start shipping before December 20th (this was stated on the page). And with how things are going with people who preordered from the ninox site not getting anything yet, it's likely massdrop mice won't ship until January. The ninox site mice would be a higher priority, not to mention massdrop stuff doesn't tend to ship quickly so you made a mistake if you were expecting it soon. You get a discount in exchange for having to wait.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> well i mean, hes pretty much known for his lack of communication at this point (i.e. disappearing for the better part of a year) and im sure me and the few other people that canceled aren't really making enough of a statement to hinder his progress (whatever that is). I just have better use for the money now instead of giving it to him, like, giving it to logitech instead.


Yeah, i can understand anyone who cancels their order or do a paypal dispute though.
Dont know how long i can wait till i give up and do the same.

Hopefully he will give us an update soon.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Eh, we might as
> Sorry to break it to you, but the massdrop was never even planned to start shipping before December 20th (this was stated on the page). And with how things are going with people who preordered from the ninox site not getting anything yet, it's likely massdrop mice won't ship until January. The ninox site mice would be a higher priority, not to mention massdrop stuff doesn't tend to ship quickly so you made a mistake if you were expecting it soon. You get a discount in exchange for having to wait.


Well, I would've waited for reviews before buying if it hadn't been for the massdrop thing, so I'm not really getting it any later than I expected.
In a mail from massdrop they said they'll ship 4 days from now, not sure if thats accurate tho.


----------



## alancsalt

Cleaned of swearing/profanity.
Quote:


> Swearing/profanity is not permitted on OCN.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> You are EXPECTED to:
> Maintain an environment that is friendly to all ages
> No swearing, racy images etc.
> 
> You may not:
> Use profanity. This includes the use of symbols, abbreviations, or acronyms to circumvent the no profanity rule.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Adding ***** or using acronyms that are synonymous with swearing ARE both the same as swearing.
> 
> - The censorship ("*****") is just reactive action to someone who has broken our rules. It does not make things "alright".
> - Acronyms that are synonymous with swearing are defined as circumvention of our rules.
> 
> Both of these will not be tolerated - the same way that swearing here has never been tolerated.
> 
> We are a professional community. Let's keep it that way.
> 
> Thread Origin: http://www.overclock.net/t/219513/the-dreaded-f/50_50#post_2541569
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *So, anything that turns into asterisks, edit it out with other words.*
Click to expand...


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jcwc*
> 
> What firmware are you using with your Avior?


That last beta one.

I told metal, felt better overal but lines in paint were quite straight and I felt like I had less control over very small movements so in order to make it perfect they should tone down the prediction a bit more imo.


----------



## resis

Maybe shipment from Asia got lost, or he got screwed over a bit, perhaps them fools printed him an older version that was supposed to be improved, or whatever.

Only he should not repeat the same mistake and just die... I mean just vanish again.


----------



## iceskeleton

probably a quality issue if anything


----------



## trhead

yeah he is probably unhappy with something. perfectionist or they really messed up something (again)


----------



## a_ak57

Even if there's an issue it doesn't excuse the lack of communication (rather the opposite, actually). It's really not difficult to spend 2 minutes logging into ESR to give a sentence saying something is up. It especially doesn't help he kept going "oh yeah gonna ship these out really soon" a few times then just goes AWOL again.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alancsalt*
> 
> Cleaned of swearing/profanity.


Sorry.


----------



## a_ak57

Well, someone under the username bst857 posted this on massdrop two hours ago:
Quote:


> Orders on the Ninox site are going out on Monday 1st Dec, this is because there was a problem with the royal mail account the warehouse was using, so its not related to the Massdrop shipping. The mice are in stock, so Massdrop can have them as soon as they need them. Sorry for any confusion.
> - bst


Take it with a grain of salt since this wasn't posted on the ESR thread where you'd expect BST to post, so could just be a troll.


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Take it with a grain of salt since this wasn't posted on the ESR thread where you'd expect BST to post, so could just be a troll.


i presume bst would post on ESR.
i don't think that that bst857 is legit.


----------



## Poopsticker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> i presume bst would post on ESR.
> i don't think that that bst857 is legit.


I wish it was.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Well, someone under the username bst857 posted this on massdrop two hours ago:
> Take it with a grain of salt since this wasn't posted on the ESR thread where you'd expect BST to post, so could just be a troll.


Don't forget that ESR is filled with frantic children all wanting everything now. Massdrop is a point of purchase meaning there are a lot of customers already buying into the mouse hence his first response would be there.

Even though I'm still waiting for my first purchase of his input devices I'm confident it will eventually get to me here in Convict Town, although it might be around January 2015







.


----------



## AnimalK

I've been using Massdrop for about a year now and I don't think they would risk their reputation over this mouse. Last I checked it was at about 250 purchases. That's a lot of money and a lot people to potentially anger.


----------



## Deadeye

I think that post by bst857 is correct. Google BST857 ant it will come whit profile http://play.esea.net/users/515538?tab=history and his name is the same as http://companycheck.co.uk/company/08020895/NINOX-TECHNOLOGY-LIMITED/directors-secretaries


----------



## Derp

Good news for those who had doubts. His post on ESR:
Quote:


> Hi all, I was about to send them myself on Friday, but I've been told they're going to be sent out on Monday.
> 
> I know I've been quiet but I thought the mice would be sent earlier last week, I should have posted then, but I don't think it would have calmed many people down because it would have been pretty bad, at that time I started to wonder myself how long it was going to take.
> 
> The problem was the warehouse had to reapply for its Royal Mail account, and I was trying to find out how long it would take but I couldn't get an answer. I thought it was better just to wait a couple of days and have some news, but it just went on without anything. By then it had been a few days without posting on ESR so I just decided I would post when I got the news or by the end of the week if I didn't (and would have sent some out on friday myself). But instead, I found out on Friday that they're going out on Monday.
> 
> I posted on Massdrop shortly after finding it out, I was updating my graphics card drivers at the time and my PC died, I still don't know whats happened to it but thats why I'm posting today and not yesterday.
> 
> I'm sorry I went quiet but if you've paid you will get your order and if you want a refund thats ok too, I'm not dishonest, I've just got to improve on how I deal with these kind of situations.
> 
> -BST


Hopefully it will be smooth sailing from this point on.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> I'm sorry I went quiet


Don't be sorry.....just stop doing it


----------



## Poopsticker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry I went quiet
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be sorry.....just stop doing it
Click to expand...

" I'm sorry I went quiet but if you've paid you will get your order and if you want a refund thats ok too, I'm not dishonest, I've just got to improve on how I deal with these kind of situations." - bst


----------



## Bucake

i feel bad for the fact he hasn't been (able to be) more communicative. people have been cancelling, which is a real damn shame.
what bst did gave me hope for the peripheral market.
finally someone who genuinely wants to provide everyone who cares about their peripherals; a mouse that serves nothing but its true purpose.
relatively, this mouse is crazily cheap, and it has no unnecessary costs for things we all don't really need/want.

well, at least it's actually happening. right?
i'll be hoping that every buyer will enjoy his mouse, and that bst will not stop trying to bring us proper products for proper prices








and i hope that people can now chill again and give bst the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## a_ak57

I'm glad things are moving along, but my word he is...let's just say...an airhead. "Hmm, I've gone awol a bunch of times and people get upset because of no communication, oh no there's a problem so it'll make sense to just go AWOL again instead of actually communicate there's a problem and then give updates."

like, seriously dude

I could empathize if this was the first time he screwed up with communication/updates, but there is zero excuse at this point as this is "fool me 20 times" status. I'm glad we're getting the mice, but if/when he comes around with a proposal for a 3310 variant I won't even give a crap because I know it's gonna be filled with this same junk I would expect from a kid trying to run a business. Dude really needs a partner or something.


----------



## Bucake

you're calling him a kid..? now take a look at your own post.


----------



## a_ak57

Perhaps the phrasing was poor, but I'm saying the way he has handled everything is what I would expect if you gave a business to a kid and told them to run it. He has been incompetent, to be blunt. Yes, he's been nice when he's been around, but he is a businessman whether he likes it or not, not just some guy doing something as a hobby.

I'm not one of those who feel we should be gracious/appreciative of whatever he does, he's running a business and has been for some time and there are standards. People freak out big time about massdrops taking longer than expected, no reason we can't be upset about BST's constant delays and AWOLs and apparently never once learning from previous mistakes.

But anyway, I don't wanna derail the thread further so I'll end my ranting.


----------



## resis

That was close, I was about to sic my lawyer hounds on him.

No more slips BST!


----------



## CorruptBE

Awaiting a good review. If responsiveness is better then a FK1 I'm getting one too.


----------



## MasterBash

Waiting for the 3310 version. I really really enjoy the the g302 except for the drag and mouse cord. If he could get the mouse to weigh 65g with 3310 sensor, I would definitely use it.

I always used heavy mice previously, such a big difference.


----------



## Johan450

I've ordered one via massdrop, Feels a bit safer than going through him directly. I'm really hoping there wont be any more issues with it though, Looks like a sick mouse.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poopsticker*
> 
> " I'm sorry I went quiet but if you've paid you will get your order and if you want a refund thats ok too, I'm not dishonest, I've just got to improve on how I deal with these kind of situations." - bst


Hey I understand the difficult situations when you try and design, make and finally distribute anything to anyone around this planet. Because you are all by yourself, people here seem to forget that you don't stay put in one place when it comes to sorting out all the problems that confront you when running this show.

Understandably THEY will never know what it's like to run a Group Buy in their lifetimes hence you will get that incessant whining and complaining. It takes a very stern individual to undertake this type of venture, I only hope this won't be his last input device that will be released. We desperately need someone to design and make mice that serve a genuine purpose when it comes to gaming and general usage.

You've got heaps of keyboard manufacturers out there but BST is thus far, the ONLY person releasing a mouse hence kudos for doing that







.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Hey I understand the difficult situations when you try and design, make and finally distribute anything to anyone around this planet. Because you are all by yourself, people here seem to forget that you don't stay put in one place when it comes to sorting out all the problems that confront you when running this show.
> 
> Understandably THEY will never know what it's like to run a Group Buy in their lifetimes hence you will get that incessant whining and complaining. It takes a very stern individual to undertake this type of venture, I only hope this won't be his last input device that will be released. We desperately need someone to design and make mice that serve a genuine purpose when it comes to gaming and general usage.
> 
> You've got heaps of keyboard manufacturers out there but BST is thus far, the ONLY person releasing a mouse hence kudos for doing that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


People are not complaining that there are some problems, they are complaining that he doesn't communicate about those problems properly and just goes silent completely.
If he'd just say "Hey guys, something went wrong and now it'll be another 5 days before shipping", I don't think people would be nearly as upset.


----------



## discoprince

my dispute never went through so i guess im getting mine.
he said if you ordered from the site they are getting shipped out on Monday 12/1/14


----------



## Elrick

Finally the Massdrop Group Buy has ended, I think it's around 300 individual mice that were sold hence BST should be extremely happy with that result. Very few first-time manufacturers get a big order like this one (please no comparisons to giants like Razer or Logitech which are utter crap despite their size and reach).

Now I'm looking forward to this baby because it's the first time a customized mouse has been developed, made and sold to fetishists such as us.

Even for the hardcore out there if they despise the current mouse casing they can easily open it up and remove the pcb and transplant it into another housing suitable to them. I think this item is an all out win, win for everyone concerned







.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> I think this item is an all out win, win for everyone concerned
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Please, 3090 is so last year...







J/k

Waiting for initial reviews


----------



## Gigantoad

This guy seems to like it: http://www.twitch.tv/justnvc/b/581050473


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> This guy seems to like it: http://www.twitch.tv/justnvc/b/581050473


around the 9:00 the first remark that guys friend says about the mouse is the "4k dpi, omg"

please


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> around the 9:00 the first remark that guys friend says about the mouse is the "4k dpi, omg"
> 
> please


Ignore that and watch him play. He's doing QL later in the stream and seems quite competent. He's also apparently a pro gamer who's represented UK on various tournaments.


----------



## a_ak57

While I'm sure it's indeed a great mouse (I mean I am getting one), I'll wait for reviews from those who weren't comped and won't be afraid to nitpick. I mean realistically the kana v2 is still a great mouse for most people, but I'd prefer a roach/max review that freaks out about the smoothing or an FK1 review that bashes the click latency rather than the "wowow it's a mouse" reviews that are common with people who get stuff early/for free.


----------



## thizito

he was aiming pretty good with it.. but he gave the mice for his old girlfriend and lost mice!?! so he didnt liked it

anyway we will see news and reviews here till next week XD i probably will write my opinion also

indeed he is deathadder user and dont like small mices


----------



## Oeshon

Nvc likes palm grip mice with high lod. His favorite mouse shape wise and lod wise is the Deathadder.

So I think people should take his review with a grain of salt (he wasn't crazy about the shape and low lod in his review). In my preference the Deathadder has the worst shape of any mouse I tried, and the lod is a deal breaker. But as you see some people like it.

Cypher (claw grip) for instance was given a Deathadder by his sponsor when he played for Serious Gaming, and he said the shape was horrible and it ruined his aim.

For claw and fingertip grippers on paper it seems that Ninox Aurora hits all the necessary requirements. For palm grip if you have smaller than average hands I am guessing it should be usable.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oeshon*
> 
> Nvc likes palm grip mice with high lod. His favorite mouse shape wise and lod wise is the Deathadder.
> 
> So I think people should take his review with a grain of salt (he wasn't crazy about the shape and low lod in his review). In my preference the Deathadder has the worst shape of any mouse I tried, and the lod is a deal breaker. But as you see some people like it.
> 
> Cypher (claw grip) for instance was given a Deathadder by his sponsor when he played for Serious Gaming, and he said the shape was horrible and it ruined his aim.
> 
> For claw and fingertip grippers on paper it seems that Ninox Aurora hits all the necessary requirements. For palm grip if you have smaller than average hands I am guessing it should be usable.


Where can I find the review?


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> While I'm sure it's indeed a great mouse (I mean I am getting one), I'll wait for reviews from those who weren't comped and won't be afraid to nitpick. I mean realistically the kana v2 is still a great mouse for most people, but I'd prefer a roach/max review that freaks out about the smoothing or an FK1 review that bashes the click latency rather than the "wowow it's a mouse" reviews that are common with people who get stuff early/for free.


That guy does actually mention click latency on the FK and that he doesn't like Huanos in general. Granted, this isn't a review just a stream of him playing for 4 hours on first day with the Aurora. So opinions are spread out a lot. He'll do an actual review later. But watching him play and seeing how he moves his hands with the new mouse, isn't that better than many half-arsed reviews by none-pros that are going to follow?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Ignore that and watch him play. He's doing QL later in the stream and seems quite competent. He's also apparently a pro gamer who's represented UK on various tournaments.


yeah the dood is totally a boss and shows off the mouse quite well.
however i am trash at QL and i know the aurora isnt going to make me any better at it lol.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Finally the Massdrop Group Buy has ended, I think it's around 300 individual mice that were sold hence BST should be extremely happy with that result. Very few first-time manufacturers get a big order like this one (please no comparisons to giants like Razer or Logitech which are utter crap despite their size and reach).
> 
> Now I'm looking forward to this baby because it's the first time a customized mouse has been developed, made and sold to fetishists such as us.
> 
> Even for the hardcore out there if they despise the current mouse casing they can easily open it up and remove the pcb and transplant it into another housing suitable to them. I think this item is an all out win, win for everyone concerned
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The price was so cheap I had to buy one. The shape is also of interest to me.


----------



## resis

The kind Gentleman at massdrop notified me about the ongoing order of the batch being in process, after which the subjects will be distributed to the fine people around the globe.

Friendly lads. Should take about two weeks, I suppose.


----------



## bovi77

has anyone received their order yet? discounting reviewers etc.
sad to have missed the massdrop.


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bovi77*
> 
> has anyone received their order yet? discounting reviewers etc.
> sad to have missed the massdrop.


I don't think so. My order is still processing on the Ninox website.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bovi77*
> 
> has anyone received their order yet? discounting reviewers etc.
> sad to have missed the massdrop.


No, mice haven't even shipped out yet. Supposedly soon.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> No, mice haven't even shipped out yet. Supposedly soon.


Soon™


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Soon™


Soon®

Time enough to get the trademark registered and everything


----------



## discoprince

he said yesterday there was in issue with the warehouse, i doubt it will be resolved by today even.


----------



## justyourimage

This mouse remembers me of Duke Nukem Forever

Or has it been finally released - after all that years?


----------



## Nivity

Still waiting for this stuff to get resolved and working before I order one








But since G302 was crap I really wanna order one


----------



## a_ak57

You know, I wonder if we'll see the bizarre situation where the massdrop mice actually get sent out first. I mean, I know massdrop isn't the fastest but they presumably have a limit for patience and might force the issue.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> You know, I wonder if we'll see the bizarre situation where the massdrop mice actually get sent out first. I mean, I know massdrop isn't the fastest but they presumably have a limit for patience and might force the issue.


According to my dream the mice will be shipped out on the 12th of dec.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> According to my dream the mice will be shipped out on the 12th of dec.


I hope to get my massdrop Aurora before christmas. I can then decide whether I want to ditch G302 for it.


----------



## a_ak57

the latest:
Quote:


> I'm really sorry, I didn't know my warehouse would have a problem with Royal Mail. As far as I knew they were ready to go. I can't believe how long its taking.
> 
> Because its taking so long, I've decided to use Amazon to send out all of the UK and EU orders, the stock was sent to a fulfilment centre today (it will arrive on Monday, I doubt they will be dispatched on Monday though). You will be emailed by the site when the mice have dispatched, but I will get more information about the timescale soon.
> 
> I have assigned the fastest shipping option in Amazon which is Expedited.
> 
> I've set up a program which can send ninox.org orders out by Amazon Fulfillment. All thats left to do there is send the data to Amazon when the stock arrives there.
> 
> For the rest of the world its more complicated to sell via Amazon so I have to work on that over the weekend.


----------



## TheGMT

One day we're all going to have the mouse and have a good laugh reminiscing of this 4 year long saga, one day.


----------



## delledonne

inb4 there's another convenient delay problem at the fulfillment center.


----------



## povohat

Shame about us dedicated bst fans outside Europe. I don't mind waiting but it sucks to be possibly the first order in the system and not be in the first shipment.


----------



## kicksome

One day I might order one of these, not going to bother until they have been sending them out successfully for a little while


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Shame about us dedicated bst fans outside Europe. I don't mind waiting but it sucks to be possibly the first order in the system and not be in the first shipment.


Trust me you get use to it even after years of purchasing gear out of the UK and the US and still wait maybe months, before it arrives to my front door.

Suspect I won't see this elusive mouse till late January 2015







.


----------



## resis

Lol, Massdrop will keep the mice and our money for themselves and run. Then they will sell the mice on the rat market.


----------



## QLsya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Lol, Massdrop will keep the mice and our money for themselves and run. Then they will sell the mice on the rat market.


Is the rat market where criminals go to sell black market mice.


----------



## Poopsticker

bst has plans:

"At the moment I have a new shell designed which is meant for the 3310 sensor, and the Aurora will eventually be updated to 3310 as well. The new shell can fit the Aurora PCB too so I was thinking of having an option to buy only the shell. (the 3310 and 3090 use the same lens, and the sensor is in the same case, etc). I don't want to describe too much about it but I think you would like it if you like the intellimice shapes.

I am also trying to find out when the 3320 sensor is out, but I don't think its for a while yet. Hopefully it'll be a fairy easy upgrade from 3310.

After the Aurora orders have gone out I can focus more on it







" - bst


----------



## ClickTap

Intellimouse?

I'm definitely in for this one!!!


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poopsticker*
> 
> bst has plans:
> 
> "At the moment I have a new shell designed which is meant for the 3310 sensor, and the Aurora will eventually be updated to 3310 as well. The new shell can fit the Aurora PCB too so I was thinking of having an option to buy only the shell. (the 3310 and 3090 use the same lens, and the sensor is in the same case, etc). I don't want to describe too much about it but I think you would like it if you like the intellimice shapes.
> 
> I am also trying to find out when the 3320 sensor is out, but I don't think its for a while yet. Hopefully it'll be a fairy easy upgrade from 3310.
> 
> After the Aurora orders have gone out I can focus more on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> " - bst


Looking forward too it but the aurora hasn't even really birthed yet :/


----------



## CookieBook

3320 = non-logi 3366?


----------



## a_ak57

Doubtful, someone here (I forget who, Ino?) said that they couldn't give details but that 3320 is apparently gonna be a technical downgrade from 3310.


----------



## metal571

3320 is budget. Don't get too excited. Even I don't have the details but all I know is that it is inferior to the 3310, spec wise.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> 3320 is budget. Don't get too excited. Even I don't have the details but all I know is that it is inferior to the 3310, spec wise.


Watch SteelSeries jump all over the 3320 and all the fanboys will celebrate how fantastic their new input devices will be







.


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Watch SteelSeries jump all over the 3320 and all the fanboys will celebrate how fantastic their new input devices will be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Well it's step up from their laser if it happened in the least


----------



## CookieBook

I'd buy a 3320 Sensei for sure.


----------



## ClickTap

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Even I don't have the details but all I know is that it is inferior to the 3310, spec wise.


Do you work in a mouse company or something?
"Even I?" What's with the haughtiness?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> 3320 = non-logi 3366?


In terms of hardware power it's a downgrade from 3310. No details yet though. Maybe it will be to the 3310 what the 3050 was to the 3090. Hopefully not as bad.


----------



## povohat

Probably worthwhile waiting for it to be applied in practice before crucifying it. According to Skylit, the 9800 is a stronger spec than the 3310, but clearly there are some real-world problems when actually implemented. Hes probably right but I would reserve judgement until there is at least a datasheet for it.

Only other information I can find is some Brazilian forum, which claims it is the successor to the 3050
http://adrenaline.uol.com.br/forum/showthread.php?t=485632&page=934&p=1070371404#post1070371404


----------



## the1onewolf

Where is skylit these days?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1onewolf*
> 
> Where is skylit these days?


You already miss him after 3 days?


----------



## Skylit

There's nothing wrong with 3320. Specification is just lower when compared with "higher end" models.

In reference to the brazilian thread, 3320 is quite a bit stronger than 3050 (better architecture). It does fill the same target market though.

If you want technical hierarchy:

3366
3398
9800/9500
3310
3090/3080/3060
3320
3050


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poopsticker*
> 
> bst has plans:
> 
> "At the moment I have a new shell designed which is meant for the 3310 sensor, and the Aurora will eventually be updated to 3310 as well. The new shell can fit the Aurora PCB too so I was thinking of having an option to buy only the shell. (the 3310 and 3090 use the same lens, and the sensor is in the same case, etc). I don't want to describe too much about it but I think you would like it if you like the intellimice shapes.
> 
> I am also trying to find out when the 3320 sensor is out, but I don't think its for a while yet. Hopefully it'll be a fairy easy upgrade from 3310.
> 
> After the Aurora orders have gone out I can focus more on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> " - bst


3310 is a safe bet for the future it seems and I hope he gets this implemented and manufactured rather fast.
WMO 3310, is that what he's talking about with "intellimice shapes" ? It would be plausible, IIRC many ppl asked for PCB transplant into WMO shell and he also provided a quick tutorial on how to do so, so probably he will pick a shape or design one that is very similar to it.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ClickTap*
> 
> Do you work in a mouse company or something?
> "Even I?" What's with the haughtiness?


Not sure why I put it that way lol. I'm a beta product tester for Logitech and Mionix. Also Lenovo but that has nothing to do with this forum. We sometimes can pick up these tidbits not related to NDA.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> There's nothing wrong with 3320. Specification is just lower when compared with "higher end" models.
> 
> In reference to the brazilian thread, 3320 is quite a bit stronger than 3050 (better architecture). It does fill the same target market though.
> 
> If you want technical hierarchy:
> 
> 3366
> 3398
> 9800/9500
> 3310
> 3090/3080/3060
> 3320
> 3050


Why is 9800/9500 above the 3310 even though they have more acceleration.

Could you clarify what you mean by technical hierarchy.

Secondly, doesn't the Asus ROG Gladius use the S3988 sensor? I thought that was exclusive to Razer. Unless I'm mistaken and 3398 is a different sensor and not a typo.

Didn't they fix the acceleration in the A9800 sensor and wasn't it related to tracking code rather than an inherent flaw in the sensor technology? I can't remember if that was just a rumor but I remember it floating around.


----------



## CookieBook

9800 has more FPS


----------



## AnimalK

The AM010 is technically inferior to the 3310 but it is still one of the best sensors out on the market.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Not sure why I put it that way lol. I'm a beta product tester for Logitech and Mionix. Also Lenovo but that has nothing to do with this forum. We sometimes can pick up these tidbits not related to NDA.


Well that explains why you keep recommending their mice


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Well that explains why you keep recommending their mice


#EXPOSED


----------



## CookieBook

I'm pretty sure metal still like the Xai/Sensei shell better than anything Mionix or Logi has to offer?


----------



## Maximillion

The exposure has been manifest for some time now. Far before the unveiling of Project Silkworm I was under heavy suspicion. It is my belief that certain individuals started to feel their cover could be blown and made frivolous attempts to distort their connections, even going so far as to promote other products to seem unbiased. I know there are still a few other cronies floating around as well.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Why is 9800/9500 above the 3310 even though they have more acceleration.
> 
> Could you clarify what you mean by technical hierarchy.
> 
> Secondly, doesn't the Asus ROG Gladius use the S3988 sensor? I thought that was exclusive to Razer. Unless I'm mistaken and 3398 is a different sensor and not a typo.
> 
> Didn't they fix the acceleration in the A9800 sensor and wasn't it related to tracking code rather than an inherent flaw in the sensor technology? I can't remember if that was just a rumor but I remember it floating around.


i think it was a typo, when people were bashing Razer he did mention before that the 3988 was quite high on the technical hierarchy.

It seems like there is always the rumor that they fixed the tracking code with the 9800 and i have never seen it confirmed. I do think i remember hearing that it was something that Pixart could fix with code, which is probably one of the reasons technically they are still so high up on the list.

i wonder about the AM010. I imagine its lower then the 3310, but can't really assume more about it. It can have a 4,000 DPI max speed without feeling like crap, unlike the 3090, but it also has a much lower max speed then the 3090. Also why does no one but Logitech use it? Is it another sensor co developed between Logitech and Pixart?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> The exposure has been manifest for some time now. Far before the unveiling of Project Silkworm I was under heavy suspicion. It is my belief that certain individuals started to feel their cover could be blown and made frivolous attempts to distort their connections, even going so far as to promote other products to seem unbiased. I know there are still a few other cronies floating around as well.


Yeah, same. I've just been trying not to accuse people of things which I have no proof of.

But yeah, people can only behave so irrationally before you start thinking they're not actually that stupid.

Since the subject came up, I've got a question. I don't mean to be combative here, just curious. @metal571 at some point you were all like "yeah, you're right, I'ma go test the MLT04 in CS 1.6 and report back on my experience". But then you never did and went back to the "old you"...

There's also another guy on these forums, who said he could tell the difference in COD even...


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, same. I've just been trying not to accuse people of things which I have no proof of.
> 
> But yeah, people can only behave so irrationally before you start thinking they're not actually that stupid.
> 
> Since the subject came up, I've got a question. I don't mean to be combative here, just curious. @metal571 at some point you were all like "yeah, you're right, I'ma go test the MLT04 in CS 1.6 and report back on my experience". But then you never did and went back to the "old you"...
> 
> There's also another guy on these forums, who said he could tell the difference in COD even...


Dude I don't have a WMO. I said in the past I tested an X08 WMO in COD4 at very high FPS and it was extremely snappy. I never claimed to test an MLT04 in 1.6. I was gonna test my other 3310 mice.


----------



## Atavax

i recently bought a wmo, yeah, it definitely has the best tracking below its max speed.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Dude I don't have a WMO. I said in the past I tested an X08 WMO in COD4 at very high FPS and it was extremely snappy. I never claimed to test an MLT04 in 1.6. I was gonna test my other 3310 mice.


Huh... could have sworn you had one and Ino. didn't.

I think was getting confused with these posts: 1, 2.


----------



## metal571

My ex took my two. lol


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> i think it was a typo, when people were bashing Razer he did mention before that the 3988 was quite high on the technical hierarchy.
> 
> It seems like there is always the rumor that they fixed the tracking code with the 9800 and i have never seen it confirmed. I do think i remember hearing that it was something that Pixart could fix with code, which is probably one of the reasons technically they are still so high up on the list.
> 
> i wonder about the AM010. I imagine its lower then the 3310, but can't really assume more about it. It can have a 4,000 DPI max speed without feeling like crap, unlike the 3090, but it also has a much lower max speed then the 3090. Also why does no one but Logitech use it? Is it another sensor co developed between Logitech and Pixart?


 I think Logitech has exclusivity on the AM010 and PMW-3366 because I think they worked with Pixart to make those sensors. That is just speculation but I think we can be pretty certain Logitech has exclusivity on the 12000cpi PMW-3366 because if they didn't everyone would be rushing to update their mice with that sensor as 12000 DPI is great for marketing. As nobody is doing that the A9800 and PMW-3310 will continue to be the most popular sensors used because they are the best they have available.


----------



## Atavax

As for the whole connection to companies is concerned. It is normal for reviewers to receive free copies of their product. TomsHardware isn't invalid because most of the hardware is sent to them for free to review, are they? Yes, i think this practice becomes a little more questionable when we are talking about individual youtubers or forum posters, but it also becomes even more necessary. I've spent over $600 on mice this last year and i'm an amateur. I think you have to recognize that most people are trying to be good people and aren't trying to pull wool over the forum reader's eyes and have the intentions of doing the best they can recommending mice to people, even if they are receiving some of their products for free.. I also think being a beta tester warrants transparency even though i'm not sure it actually adds to the bias. If I was in beta development of a mouse (I have never been) i imagine it being a beta would mean i would have lower expectations from the start, giving a negative placebo effect. I also imagine that if there were any problems i found with the mouse in the beta that weren't resolved in the final product, they would likely stick out to me more then if i had just received a massed produced copy later down the line.

I have received 5 mice for free. 2 Razer 3.5G Deathadders, a CM Storm Spawn, a Logitech g402, and a Logitech g302. I almost never recommend any of those mice to anyone. And when i first started talking about the g402 and g302 and mentioned i had gotten them for free.

I almost always recommend Logitech g100s if light and simple is fine. Zowie fk1 for average weight and 2 side buttons, and the Logitech g502 if you want something heavier with more buttons. All mice i bought with my own money. All highly regarded mice. I even use the g302 as my daily driver, (and most people including Roach recognize the AM010 being a great sensor) but I feel the ergonomics are unpopular enough to warrant not recommending it to people.

Also, as a little side note, when i first learned that a package from Logitech was being sent to me (that eventually turned out to be a g402) my first suspicion was that it was a cease and desist letter from harassing Logitech support about advertising the g100s's max speed as 4m/s.


----------



## metal571

I try to be as unbiased as possible in my own experience, although I won't get to the level of detail that r0ach expects from people. But if I don't like a mouse I'll either not review it on YT and rant about it here, or I'll actually just do an honest review instead. I was never a fan of Logitech's mice, and I still don't use them daily, but they asked me to become a tester, not the other way around...although I did hint a few times in posts that I'd like to try their newest stuff.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> I have received 5 mice for free. 2 Razer 3.5G Deathadders, a CM Storm Spawn, a Logitech g402, and a Logitech g302.


Wow, how'd you do that?

I buy and return all of mine.


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> The exposure has been manifest for some time now. Far before the unveiling of Project Silkworm I was under heavy suspicion. It is my belief that certain individuals started to feel their cover could be blown and made frivolous attempts to distort their connections, even going so far as to promote other products to seem unbiased. I know there are still a few other cronies floating around as well.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> i think it was a typo, when people were bashing Razer he did mention before that the 3988 was quite high on the technical hierarchy.
> 
> It seems like there is always the rumor that they fixed the tracking code with the 9800 and i have never seen it confirmed. I do think i remember hearing that it was something that Pixart could fix with code, which is probably one of the reasons technically they are still so high up on the list.
> 
> i wonder about the AM010. I imagine its lower then the 3310, but can't really assume more about it. It can have a 4,000 DPI max speed without feeling like crap, unlike the 3090, but it also has a much lower max speed then the 3090. Also why does no one but Logitech use it? Is it another sensor co developed between Logitech and Pixart?


I agree with both sentiments of very poor attempts of swaying this forums opinion on certain mice as recent as a couple of months ago.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> TomsHardware isn't invalid because most of the hardware is sent to them for free to review, are they?


Well, they're invalid because they're smoking something pretty fierce since they call the M65 the best FPS mouse. In any case, I don't think being a tester or a reviewer getting stuff early/for free means you're automatically a shill, but I do think at least some of those who want to keep getting stuff for free won't trash something publicly even if it's deserved. Like with Tom's, they're either incompetent or just trying to stay in Corsair's good graces by promoting the mouse Corsair presumably wants promoted (or both).


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnimalK*
> 
> I agree with both sentiments of very poor attempts of swaying this forums opinion on certain mice as recent as a couple of months ago.


It's not really swaying of opinion, Logitech is just giving a lot of insight recently. So obviously there are a lot of threads about Logitech mice and their exclusive sensors etc. If you even referred to that.
If Razer was more open (for example) you'd experience the same.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> In any case, I don't think being a tester or a reviewer getting stuff early/for free means you're automatically a shill, but I do think at least some of those who want to keep getting stuff for free won't trash something publicly even if it's deserved. Like with Tom's, they're either incompetent or just trying to stay in Corsair's good graces by promoting the mouse Corsair presumably wants promoted (or both).


I think both sides have to expect the other of acting in a professional manner. If Reviewer A dislikes one product by Company B, why would Company B assume Reviewer A won't like the next one? Unless Company B takes it personally or unless they think Reviewer A has a personal vendetta against their products, i don't see why a company would stop providing review copies to them.

I post in a lot of forums and a lot of people really really like the ergonomics of the M65. I think Tomshardware's positive view of the M65 is more representative of a focus on ergonomics then it is on incompetence or corruption.


----------



## a_ak57

For one thing, it was specifically about best FPS mouse, they have a whole host of categories so they aren't just awarding the mouse they think is best over all. Second, the M45 has the same ergonomics and is better for FPS. I think you're just being optimistic about their intentions.

And it's not about vendettas, it's about marketing. If you're Steelseries and you have yet another mouse with the 9500 or 9800, are you going to send it to r0ach or someone who will ignore that sensor and focus on other stuff? You'll reward the positive-review guy with an early mouse so the good word will spread early, then roach can wait until release to complain about it. This works the other way around, if you actually keep pointing out negatives, companies probably won't want to give you stuff early because there is no shortage of people willing to overlook flaws that they could give the early products to instead. And as a reviewer, you want to be competitive so you want the product early, so you'll be influenced to be positive.

It's actually an issue with video game reviews, tbh. Reviewers are generally scared to complain about any big games because if EA/Activision/whoever stops sending them early copies, they miss out on a ton of clicks and thus revenue.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's not like Tom's is getting paid by Corsair to be shills, but it's one of those things where Corsair was probably like "hey we want you to promote the m65" and tom's said sure because they don't want to risk upsetting corsair and miss out getting future stuff early. Either that or they are simply incompetent and value SN1PA buttons more than better tracking for FPS.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a negative review by anyone who didn't buy the mouse themselves. Maybe once or twice, and they always play down the negatives.

It's just human nature to not crap on someone after they do something nice for you.

There is 100% bias in all these fluff ("unboxing") reviews you see people do when they get the product before everyone else. Though another possibility is that companies target people who make fluff/positive reviews and send them their products.

In fact, this is pretty much the only guy I've seen make reviews that didn't seem to be complete fluff: youtube.com/user/Ramla777

When a guy gets a product early, they get more views than people who get the products later. And usually people click on the videos that have the most views. So you can see how that's a self-inflating phenomena.

Also, people can't comment with contradictions since the product isn't available to them yet. So pretty much whatever the reviewer says, goes.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Not sure why I put it that way lol. I'm a beta product tester for Logitech and Mionix. Also Lenovo but that has nothing to do with this forum. We sometimes can pick up these tidbits not related to NDA.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that explains why you keep recommending their mice
Click to expand...

Not like he even uses a logitech or mionix mouse himself. He uses a zowie sooooo.

And the fact that not many more mice are to recommend outside those.
Zowie he recommended several times.
So that leaves Roccat which got KPM thaat's good.

Steelseries are well, behind on everything atm.
Razer have nothing new.


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Not like he even uses a logitech or mionix mouse himself. He uses a zowie sooooo.
> 
> And the fact that not many more mice are to recommend outside those.
> Zowie he recommended several times.
> So that leaves Roccat which got KPM thaat's good.
> 
> Steelseries are well, behind on everything atm.
> Razer have nothing new.


Before that he was championing the Avior 7000 and this forum was plastered with his pushing of it. Back then I didn't know about his relationship to Mionix but it was very obvious because not only did he saturate the forum with blunt endorsements, he often brought correct info about the mouse before anyone else could confirm it.

I don't want a witch hunt as I do enjoy Metal's recent contributions to this forum otherwise.


----------



## Atavax

i was pretty negative about the g402. I thought the sensor was good, but everyone agreed with the g100s it was a good sensor. I hated the ergonomics of it. And like i mentioned before, i was so negative towards Logitech i thought i was getting a letter from an attorney when they sent the g402. I hate the cm storm spawn which i received for free, and don't think i ever recommended it after i tried it.

I think if Razer gave a damn about people like Roach, they wouldn't make another mouse with the 9800. I think if Razer wanted to appeal to us, they could and they would send us review copies and the reviews would generally be positive not because we are biased but because Razer would value what we value and wouldn't be making more mice with the 9800. I think Logitech's representation on the board, the free review copies to members of the board, and a couple people in this board even being in the beta development of the mice is more a representation of Logitech sharing some of the same values in mice development as this board and not a representation of bias on this board. A year ago everyone on this board was complaining about high dpi and smoothing. Who since then has released mice with no or minimal smoothing? Just Logitech. Who hasn't exceeded 4,000 dpi on a majority of their new mice? Logitech.

finally with Toms and the m65. If Toms were being shills they still wouldn't of had a reason to prefer the m65 over the m40. Skylit mentioned the hierarchy of sensors and on his list, the 9800 was higher then the 3310. Toms was probably more impressed with the stats on the m65.

I agree that i'm being optimistic about my view of toms and other reviewers that receive review copies. Do you recognize that you're being very cynical? The proper way to receive a free copy is a professional receives free copies, the company is challenging you to act professionally without bias on their product. I have no idea how many people actually receive review copies in that way.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Not like he even uses a logitech or mionix mouse himself. He uses a zowie sooooo.
> 
> And the fact that not many more mice are to recommend outside those.
> Zowie he recommended several times.
> So that leaves Roccat which got KPM thaat's good.
> 
> Steelseries are well, behind on everything atm.
> Razer have nothing new.


Heh,

I also recommend Mionix if their shapes/weight suit you. But I wanted something more lightweight and thus the FK2 was an obvious choice over the Avoir (homebrew FK2 atm).


----------



## metal571

I still recommend the Avior 7000 a lot because, well, it's one of the best mice available, especially if you still need customizability and an ambi shape. In fact it's the only mouse available that's ambidextrous, optical, and has customizability.

My views on every mouse I have ever reviewed here have not changed. What I said in my reviews is something I still believe. I am also the kind of person that can see the good and the bad in mice, but explain why I don't personally prefer them at the same time, i.e. G402 and G302. I've also said everything you should need to consider when choosing between the FK1 and Avior in my comparison and review, save maybe the button latency.

I said a long time ago I was going to do a PTE sensor overview. That is going to eventually happen with my Lachesis 3G. That mouse is pure trash, and I'm going to treat it as such in the video review. Because that's what it is.

What I won't argue over or bring to the table is the whole smoothing debate crap, which I'm not saying doesn't exist, but rather if it didn't affect my play in the games I play, then I won't be mentioning much about it. I actually did a side by side testing with the FK1 and the G302 click latency, and there actually is a noticeable difference which is very clear on my 144 Hz monitor, but it is still quite small and I never notice it unless the mice are side by side. It's as simple as clicking between tabs in Chrome that I can feel the difference in.

Before I even came into this OCN community I had been extremely interested in mice and had referred to this forum for at least a year or more before I started posting to make sure I didn't say things that were incredibly outlandish to begin with. That said, I did go through my whole laser phase and although I was able to live with it, ultimately sold the Sensei once I realized what was really going on with the sensor.

So in the end, I'm still doing the same thing I tried to do when I got here, which was contribute and try to help people get a good idea of what it is really like to use whatever mouse it is in question.

What I'm NOT, is a product advocate. Mionix also sent me their Sargas 450 SK, it's awful because it makes the LOD on my 3310 mice really high and also frays very fast. Their headset wasn't that impressive either except for sound quality. Not everything I'm sent from every company that sends me products is good, and I'm not going to sugar coat a damn thing. I have no incentive anyway, as they actually want honest opinions and they specifically have told me that anyway. They read these forums, they know what we say and what I say, and I'm just trying to be honest.

I overall enjoy being a part of the community here though, as we always have interesting discussions. As much weird and strange stuff people talk about and post about, I don't see myself leaving or stopping contributions anytime soon.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a negative review by anyone who didn't buy the mouse themselves. Maybe once or twice, and they always play down the negatives.
> .


This is blatantly obvious around here since Logitech started sending promotion samples to everyone that was currently buying mice and reviewing them. It's only natural to have at least one of the "beta testers" be unhappy about the product or to say " I don't recommend buying this mouse because I believe X company made a mistake and here's why". Instead everything is "just fine" and "it's just a preference" or "I don't have any problems with it". Then when the mouse releases and people actually spend their money on it you get people who aren't afraid of calling it how they see it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's just human nature to not crap on someone after they do something nice for you.
> .


It's also human nature to completely ignore the opinion of shills who are destroying their own reviews because they're afraid to be honest. While it's clear that some are "holding their punches", I haven't seen anyone go full shill besides Ino.


----------



## popups

Shill me once, shame on you. Shill me twice, shame on you.


----------



## Atavax

well, things to criticize mice for: Sensor, build quality, ergonomics, buttons, cable. So sensor, you criticize the am010 for having a low max speed, the g502 has no sensor faults. Build quality, Logitech has really been great, there was an issue with mouse feet for the first batch of g502 i think? Then ergonomics is more subjective then anything else. Logitech averages the most responsive mouse clicks plus we don't have the equipment to accurately measure buttons. With scroll wheels and ergonomics its hard .I was like, can we all agree its a horrible scroll wheel on the g502? and a lot of people really liked it. It seems like the best way to criticize something we haven't come up with criteria to define good and bad for, is to say it seems controversial or dividing; even that is difficult to do before many people have tried the mouse. Cables could be better, although i still prefer the g302 cable to like roccat kone pure military cable. Its no Zowie cable, but there aren't many mice with better cables.

I am a little more hesitant to point out a fault in sensors just because i occasionally find people in forums still think there is acceleration in the g502 because of my early posts about it.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> the g502 has no sensor faults.


Ehh, that's not accurate. The g502 still hasn't matched the accuracy of the MLT04. It's even inferior to the KPM. Being inferior to a 10+ year old mouse is a major flaw.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Why is 9800/9500 above the 3310 even though they have more acceleration.
> 
> Could you clarify what you mean by technical hierarchy.
> 
> Secondly, doesn't the Asus ROG Gladius use the S3988 sensor? I thought that was exclusive to Razer. Unless I'm mistaken and 3398 is a different sensor and not a typo.
> 
> Didn't they fix the acceleration in the A9800 sensor and wasn't it related to tracking code rather than an inherent flaw in the sensor technology? I can't remember if that was just a rumor but I remember it floating around.


Technical hierarchy is basically listing the sensors in order in regards to their processing power and feature set.

9800/9500 is a stronger sensor by design.

S3988 was exclusive to Razer from Late 2012 (Razer DA 4G release) to Oct 2013. It is now a solution that can be purchased publicly.

9800 "acceleration" is a combined issue of optics and illumination.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ehh, that's not accurate. The g502 still hasn't matched the accuracy of the MLT04. It's even inferior to the KPM. Being inferior to a 10+ year old mouse is a major flaw.


You think the kpm has a better sensor?! First I've heard of that. Is this after a recent firmware update? I'm working late tonight, but I'll try to do a review of the g302 that is more critical, if you guys aren't happy with what's been done by others. I'm only going to gloss over sensor performance though. I generally thought wasn't a good idea to make a competing thread.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> You think the kpm has a better sensor?! First I've heard of that. I'm working late tonight, but I'll try to do a review of the g302 that is more critical, if you guys aren't happy with what's been done by others. I'm only going to gloss over sensor performance though. I generally thought wasn't a good idea to make a competing thread.


Yeah, at first there were a couple reports of people saying the KPM was worse than the FK1, but we're chocking that up to bad firmware now, since most people in the KPM thread are in agreement after updating their firmware.

I did my review a while back.


----------



## Skylit

People need to realize that it isn't just a "sensor" when claiming superiority.

There are so many factors that need to be accounted for when making a mouse. Everything from the controller/firmware and LED can change perceived feel of a product.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> This is blatantly obvious around here since Logitech started sending promotion samples to everyone that was currently buying mice and reviewing them. It's only natural to have at least one of the "beta testers" be unhappy about the product or to say " I don't recommend buying this mouse because I believe X company made a mistake and here's why". Instead everything is "just fine" and "it's just a preference" or "I don't have any problems with it". Then when the mouse releases and people actually spend their money on it you get people who aren't afraid of calling it how they see it.
> It's also human nature to completely ignore the opinion of shills who are destroying their own reviews because they're afraid to be honest. While it's clear that some are "holding their punches", I haven't seen anyone go full shill besides Ino.


I'm just giving my opinion on their mice, I've always tried to be as objective as possible in any review. I just like the shape of the G302 and see nothing wrong with innovations like in the G402 while you hate both.

I've clearly criticized the weight of the G502 which makes it useless for me. But I always point out things that are personal preference, just like weight, shape, needed PCS etc.
You cry every time a mouse is not like you want it to be and you don't accept other people's opinions.

Also I think I pointed out that I still prefer the FK1 even though I did not get that one for free. To be honest, I wouldn't really see a need in any new mouse after getting the FK1, which is the main reason why I did not do a review after that one. I'm happy with it and my interest in new mice has very much declined.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'm just giving my opinion on their mice, I've always tried to be as objective as possible in any review. I just like the shape of the G302 and see nothing wrong with innovations like in the G402 while you hate both.
> 
> I've clearly criticized the weight of the G502 which makes it useless for me. But I always point out things that are personal preference, just like weight, shape, needed PCS etc.
> You cry every time a mouse is not like you want it to be and you don't accept other people's opinions.
> 
> Also I think I pointed out that I still prefer the FK1 even though I did not get that one for free. To be honest, I wouldn't really see a need in any new mouse after getting the FK1, which is the main reason why I did not do a review after that one. I'm happy with it and my interest in new mice has very much declined.


You actually claimed that having an unobtrusive mouse cable is a preference and suggested buying a wireless mouse, there's no recovery from that one. I accept other peoples opinions when they're actually being honest. You can keep shilling, I'll keep "crying" without worrying about the best interests of a company.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> You actually claimed that having an unobtrusive mouse cable is a preference and suggested buying a wireless mouse, there's no recovery from that one. I accept other peoples opinions when they're actually being honest. You can keep shilling, I'll keep "crying" without worrying about the best interests of a company.


I did not say I like it, but some people apparently do! And you obviously want wireless, just without the downsides of wireless. If a new technology came available now that would enable us to use mice wireless without any drawbacks like higher weight or latency and also battery life of 20000 hours, would you stil insist on a cable? That was the analogy I was drawing. A cable is always in the way.
I don't understand either why people like the stiffer cables, the info I was given was just that people actually preferred that cable.

I'm also not getting paid by Logitech, so I'm not worrying about their best interest either.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I did not say I like it, but some people apparently do! And you obviously want wireless, just without the downsides of wireless. If a new technology came available now that would enable us to use mice wireless without any drawbacks like higher weight or latency and also battery life of 20000 hours, would you stil insist on a cable? That was the analogy I was drawing. A cable is always in the way.
> I don't understand either why people like the stiffer cables, the info I was given was just that people actually preferred that cable.
> 
> I'm also not getting paid by Logitech, so I'm not worrying about their best interest either.


Wireless tech like that doesn't exist so why bother mentioning it? You're just defending a mouse that you received for free.

The info you were given? People prefer an obtrusive cable that pulls on the mouse and limits movement? You can't seriously accept that as being anything but BS and the source of that info should be called on it. A cable is always in the way but they clearly have varying levels of how much they get in the way and the mice that you're promoting for Logitech have had cables that are more of a problem than the vast majority of other gaming mice. You know this is true because you claim to use a Zowie mouse which uses a much better cable.

You didn't say that you specifically liked the cable or shape but you also didn't say that you disliked them either, this is the problem. No mouse is perfect and when a reviewer doesn't dislike at least some aspects of a mouse that many others complain about then what makes your reviews different from something from Tom's? Nothing.


----------



## metal571

I've even went as far as criticizing the weight of the G402. It's quite subjective whether you want to use something like that. I don't like ergo anymore, and the FK1 is lighter. It's the obvious choice for me personally. The moment you see Logitech's testers start to praise the sniper button is the moment that person is corrupted though, that's all I know.

Oh yeah the cable is annoying as crap. Some may not mind but I can't see most FPS guys liking it.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Wireless tech like that doesn't exist so why bother mentioning it? You're just defending a mouse that you received for free.
> 
> The info you were given? People prefer an obtrusive cable that pulls on the mouse and limits movement? You can't seriously accept that as being anything but BS and the source of that info should be called on it. A cable is always in the way but they clearly have varying levels of how much they get in the way and the mice that you're promoting for Logitech have had cables that are more of a problem than the vast majority of other gaming mice. You know this is true because you claim to use a Zowie mouse which uses a much better cable.
> 
> You didn't say that you specifically liked the cable or shape but you also didn't say that you disliked them either, this is the problem. No mouse is perfect and when a reviewer doesn't dislike at least some aspects of a mouse that many others complain about then what makes your reviews different from something from Tom's? Nothing.


I didn't do a review of the G302 at all.
And you have people on this very forum that like the G302 cable. I'm not defending anything, I was just trying to explain.

All my reviews pointed out things that I complained about, as would a review of the G302 if I did one. Also I try to show every measurable detail like PCS or speed related accuracy variance which is something you don't see in mainstream reviews.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I didn't do a review of the G302 at all.
> And you have people on this very forum that like the G302 cable. I'm not defending anything, I was just trying to explain.
> 
> All my reviews pointed out things that I complained about, as would a review of the G302 if I did one. Also I try to show every measurable detail like PCS or speed related accuracy variance which is something you don't see in mainstream reviews.


You didn't make a review but you have posted plenty about the mouse. Enough to downplay the poor cable with hilarious comments and to say that the shape isn't better than the g100s but isn't worse? Where's your opinion? Have you seen anyone that purchased this mouse say something like this? They like it, or they don't. Choosing to stay neutral tells me that you're afraid to hurt Logitech's feelings and break up the flow of products and paid trips.

Anyways, this is BST's Aurora thread and I'd like to stop derailing it. Feel free to bring this conversation back up in your review threads.


----------



## discoprince

so it seems EU and Massdrop people are going to get theirs soonerish*
US ninox.org preorder is screwed pretty hard right now though









really like the pics from the massdrop, they are new and show what seems to be a less rubbery coating than the grainy pics on the ninox site.
this is good for me since i dislike those really rubbery coatings.

also can't wait to compare the shape between this and the G302 and see what kind of job he did with the 3090, im sure its fine.


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> so it seems EU and Massdrop people are going to get theirs soonerish*
> US ninox.org preorder is screwed pretty hard right now though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> really like the pics from the massdrop, they are new and show what seems to be a less rubbery coating than the grainy pics on the ninox site.
> this is good for me since i dislike those really rubbery coatings.
> 
> also can't wait to compare the shape between this and the G302 and see what kind of job he did with the 3090, im sure its fine.


Why? Where are you getting this info from?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnimalK*
> 
> Why? Where are you getting this info from?


the pics are on the massdrop
the info is from the main thread on ESR, from bst.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> so it seems EU and Massdrop people are going to get theirs soonerish*
> US ninox.org preorder is screwed pretty hard right now though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Couldn't care less which one arrives sooner but it would be unfair to get the Massdrop first before the official bought one off BST's website. Still hoping to see at least one before 2014 but thus far not going to happen when you look at the current timeline.

Anyone who gets theirs soon before the end of 2014 PLEASE post lots of pics so us desperates who've spent lots for this mouse, gets some visual release from all this unrequited tension







.


----------



## Johan450

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Couldn't care less which one arrives sooner but it would be unfair to get the Massdrop first before the official bought one off BST's website. Still hoping to see at least one before 2014 but thus far not going to happen when you look at the current timeline.
> 
> Anyone who gets theirs soon before the end of 2014 PLEASE post lots of pics so us desperates who've spent lots for this mouse, gets some visual release from all this unrequited tension
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Faster and cheaper







Yeah kinda glad I went with massdrop.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I did not say I like it, but some people apparently do! And you obviously want wireless, just without the downsides of wireless. If a new technology came available now that would enable us to use mice wireless without any drawbacks like higher weight or latency and also battery life of 20000 hours, would you stil insist on a cable? That was the analogy I was drawing. A cable is always in the way.
> I don't understand either why people like the stiffer cables, the info I was given was just that people actually preferred that cable.
> 
> I'm also not getting paid by Logitech, so I'm not worrying about their best interest either.


I find that interesting because I'd like to know how they were managing the cable cord. The G302 and G402 cord have given me nothing but grief so far.

CM Storm Alcor has the best rubber cable I've ever used and it's a lot better than the Zowie kinkfest cable. Razer Orochi 2013 is the best braided cable I've ever used but that was because it was very thin and flexible.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Technical hierarchy is basically listing the sensors in order in regards to their processing power and feature set.
> 
> 9800/9500 is a stronger sensor by design.
> 
> S3988 was exclusive to Razer from Late 2012 (Razer DA 4G release) to Oct 2013. It is now a solution that can be purchased publicly.
> 
> 9800 "acceleration" is a combined issue of optics and illumination.


Thanks for the answer. Don't some sensors have adjustable smoothing based upon CPI value. Does the S3988 or PMW-3310 have that?


----------



## Skylit

As far as I'm currently aware, adjustable smoothing is only present on the sensors in G402/G302. (1ms delay over 2000 CPI).

3310/3988 will receive updates, though I don't know specifics or if anything has been changed when compared to release of certain products.


----------



## bovi77

i'm sad that i missed the massdrop offer









after some use, the g302 doesn't seem to suit me.


----------



## TheGMT

I'll have you covered with some really bad phone pics come Wednesday/Thursday


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGMT*
> 
> I'll have you covered with some really bad phone pics come Wednesday/Thursday


BRILLIANT, make sure you get some gratuitous pron pics of it's underside, rear and front because that's the natural way to see mice at their very best







.


----------



## Ickz

If massdrop customers get there's before me, I'm going to be slightly upset... Why exactly did I preorder through ninox.org and pay $20 for shipping again?


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGMT*
> 
> I'll have you covered with some really bad phone pics come Wednesday/Thursday


Wednesday/Thursday? Where did you order?


----------



## TheGMT

Ninox site on the first day pre-orders opened. Apparently they should be shipped by Amazon via their fastest service either today, tomorrow or Wednesday, living a 30 minute drive away from the warehouse I assume I'll get it this week if all goes well.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGMT*
> 
> Ninox site on the first day pre-orders opened. Apparently they should be shipped by Amazon via their fastest service either today, tomorrow or Wednesday, living a 30 minute drive away from the warehouse I assume I'll get it this week if all goes well.


you're in EU right?? Might be misleading to some people if they are in US.
I was first day pre-order too (USA) but screwed because of the Royal Mail issue.

also did the status of your order change on the ninox site from _processing_ to something else? like _shippe_d? im curious if it gets update or not.


----------



## TheGMT

Yes, I'm in the UK, so the same country as all the mice. The order status hasn't been changed yet, bst said that the mice were being moved from the original warehouse to an amazon warehouse today, and then will likely be shipped out tomorrow.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGMT*
> 
> *bst said* that the mice were being moved from the original warehouse to an amazon warehouse today, and then will likely be *shipped out tomorrow*.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> As far as I'm currently aware, adjustable smoothing is only present on the sensors in G402/G302. (1ms delay over 2000 CPI).
> 
> 3310/3988 will receive updates, though I don't know specifics or if anything has been changed when compared to release of certain products.


Thanks for the response. I guess from an enthusiasts perspective mice that can be interpolated up to a high CPI value with a large amount of smoothing and yet can have little to none smoothing on a low CPI value is the best compromise between enthusiasts and the what the general market wants.

I hope we are never in a situation ever again where the A9500/A9800, with their significant flaws, are put into most mice. I just hope that we get a good, publically available sensor with a higher CPI value than the A9800 and yet still be good for enthusiasts.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*


+1


----------



## resis

The mice WILL be shipped tomorrow, two weeks ago, in a month.


----------



## Ino.

Massdrop just mailed this:

_Quick update for the group. The vendor is finalizing the group's order and it is scheduled to ship from them later this week.
Once the order is on the way we will forward tracking info to our warehouse team so they can receive the group's order as soon as it arrives. Rest assured that once the order arrives in our hands it will be taken care of swiftly and diligently.
Expect an update from us on 12/16 or sooner if something comes up._


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Massdrop just mailed this:
> 
> _Quick update for the group. The vendor is finalizing the group's order and it is scheduled to ship from them later this week.
> Once the order is on the way we will forward tracking info to our warehouse team so they can receive the group's order as soon as it arrives. Rest assured that once the order arrives in our hands it will be taken care of swiftly and diligently.
> Expect an update from us on 12/16 or sooner if something comes up._


Finally, have been waiting for this to happen







.


----------



## a_ak57

Glad I switched to a massdrop order, not only $20 cheaper but getting it the same time or maybe even earlier.


----------



## loki993

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Glad I switched to a massdrop order, not only $20 cheaper but getting it the same time or maybe even earlier.


Yeah way to screw the preorders.....


----------



## resis

We should let Massdrop develop a mouse next time.


----------



## ronal

Such back business practices on BST's end. I preordered the mouse knowing that I will get it before massdrop orders, now I find out that's not the case. Did I forget to mention I paid $20 more. I should just make a Paypal dispute, get my money, and buy the FK2.


----------



## loki993

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Such back business practices on BST's end. I preordered the mouse knowing that I will get it before massdrop orders, now I find out that's not the case. Did I forget to mention I paid $20 more. I should just make a Paypal dispute, get my money, and buy the FK2.


I'm having my reservations about it as well..I got this sort of as a stopgap to hold me over until the FK2 came out. Now it looks like the FK2 may very well be available before this mouse.

The thing is I still want to try this thing and even after all this hassle what he is doing is a good thing and I want to support that. Hopefully these are just growing pains and he will learn from it, but I doubt Ill ever preorder anything from him again though Ill wait until whatever is released.


----------



## resis

I think sending the mice each to different locations is what is the problem for him, while Massdrop is just one order and one location. It would have been smart to use Massdrop as the main order/pre-order feature somehow, but who knew? I don't think he's to blame.

Unless with Massdrop he actually has some loss, then it would explain it. Why is Massdrop cheaper? Because of the reduced total shipping costs?


----------



## Johan450

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I think sending the mice each to different locations is what is the problem for him, while Massdrop is just one order and one location. It would have been smart to use Massdrop as the main order/pre-order feature somehow, but who knew? I don't think he's to blame.
> 
> Unless with Massdrop he actually has some loss, then it would explain it. Why is Massdrop cheaper? Because of the reduced total shipping costs?


I'd guess that they get a better deal perproduct as they buy it in a bulk. I don't know how much BST takes in profit per sale so I can't really say buying from his website is "overpriced." Maybe massdrop gets a new shipment directly from the factory.
But I dunno about prices.


----------



## kicksome

Every time I check this thread I hope for good news haha


----------



## Oeshon

Oh well, there is always tommorow


----------



## CorruptBE

Still waiting for that review...


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Still waiting for that review...


Maybe Massdrop will make a review.


----------



## CorruptBE

...


----------



## popups

Is it tomorrow yet?


----------



## loki993

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I think sending the mice each to different locations is what is the problem for him, while Massdrop is just one order and one location. It would have been smart to use Massdrop as the main order/pre-order feature somehow, but who knew? I don't think he's to blame.
> 
> Unless with Massdrop he actually has some loss, then it would explain it. Why is Massdrop cheaper? Because of the reduced total shipping costs?


I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure the mouse itself was cheaper on massdrop as well as the shipping.


----------



## paers

I don't even read the Aurora related Massdrop emails anymore.


----------



## Ukkooh

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ninox-Aurora-Professional-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00QLJ57K2
One-day-delivery


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ninox-Aurora-Professional-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00QLJ57K2
> One-day-delivery


hm wth.
Thinking of ordering it from amazon uk then ;O

Wonder if its really true they got in stock and can deliver, but it's amazon so should be correct hm.


----------



## Derp

Glad to see it up on Amazon even if it's UK only for now.


----------



## Bitemarks and bloodstains

I've ordered one from Amazon, got an estimated delivery of Friday the 12th. I'll keep you guys informed on any developments.


----------



## resis

I went all the way to the UK by bicycle and snatched me one from BST's doorsteps. Gonna unpack tomorrow. I don't even know what you guys are still waiting for.


----------



## Mr moff

I cancelled my order on their site and have ordered one from Amazon.
Should be here tomorrow morning. Woohoo.

Danny.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Such back business practices on BST's end. I preordered the mouse knowing that I will get it before massdrop orders, now I find out that's not the case. Did I forget to mention I paid $20 more. I should just make a Paypal dispute, get my money, and buy the FK2.


Let's wait and see if the Massdrop orders actually arrive before the pre-orders. There is no confirmed delivery date of any kind yet.


----------



## TheGMT

I'm in a weird position where I don't trust bst to cancel my order in time to make an order through amazon, also the pre-orders in the UK are now being shipped by amazon anyway so it would be extremely odd if one came before the other. Given the price difference (especially for amazon prime users) I except some kind of future discount for keeping my order on the main website. As it stands I'm losing out on ~£10, not a big deal at all but in principle pretty darn stupid, if it comes later than an amazon order that's...that's beyond dumb.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Let's wait and see if the Massdrop orders actually arrive before the pre-orders. There is no confirmed delivery date of any kind yet.


Even if they don't arrive earlier, it's gonna be close enough that it's pretty lame for those who preordered in the US. I mean, the only reason to preorder on the site would have been getting it like a month sooner than via massdrop. As it stands it might be a few days earlier for that extra $20 at best.


----------



## M0rb1d

Just ordered it on their site because I'm not going to wait for massdrop and amazon only accepts creditcards.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M0rb1d*
> 
> I'm not going to wait.


yes.
yes you are.


----------



## a_ak57

Well, if you didn't participate in the massdrop before you don't have the choice of buying it from them anyway. Unless you're saying you were part of it and are buying a second one to get it a bit earlier.


----------



## M0rb1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Well, if you didn't participate in the massdrop before you don't have the choice of buying it from them anyway. Unless you're saying you were part of it and are buying a second one to get it a bit earlier.


No, I was not part of the massdrop.


----------



## pran

How can I cancel my order on the Ninox website? I'd like to order the mouse via Amazon instead.


----------



## detto87

Newest feature: preorder the mouse and get it as the last person!


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pran*
> 
> How can I cancel my order on the Ninox website? I'd like to order the mouse via Amazon instead.


I think you have to go to my account, help desk, then fill out the information to create a new ticket. That's what I did, but I haven't heard back from bst...


----------



## Mr moff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> I think you have to go to my account, help desk, then fill out the information to create a new ticket. That's what I did, but I haven't heard back from bst...


That's what I did too. Haven't heard back yet, but if it's as good as it looks I don't mind if a second one turns up.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Newest feature: preorder the mouse and get it as the last person!


Why did UbiSoft not had this idea first!?


----------



## CorruptBE

If Ubisoft makes a mouse it would be the "swampiest" crap out there and EVERYONE would notice it and put videos about it on YouTube... not just r0ach.

Also it would get a day 1 firmware update that fixes only a minor portion of its lag.


----------



## M0rb1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> If Ubisoft makes a mouse it would be the "swampiest" crap out there and EVERYONE would notice it and put videos about it on YouTube... not just r0ach.
> 
> Also it would get a day 1 firmware update that fixes only a minor portion of its lag.


Don't forget the part where you have to pay to be able to change the color of the 10 million leds and to change the DPI.


----------



## resis

Day one DLC for Ubi mouse: Smooth skatez for better aim performances.


----------



## kicksome

I wonder how long before amazon starts doing overseas orders, hopefully not too long


----------



## CaptainBlame

198 pages is a lot to read to find out what's great about this mouse. Anyone care to summarise


----------



## Maximillion

What makes it so "great" is that 99.99% of humans have never actually used it therefore it's still idealized.


----------



## CaptainBlame

Aren't there better sensors on the market now? Why buy this?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaptainBlame*
> 
> Aren't there better sensors on the market now? Why buy this?


It's one of the few light mice with a good shape + side buttons that has a good high PCS sensor.


----------



## riznich48

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaptainBlame*
> 
> Aren't there better sensors on the market now? Why buy this?


sensor isn't everything. g502 has best sensor on the market yet some people find the mouse unusable. comfort/grip etc > .1% better sensor

surely if you can find a 3310 mouse or g502 as comfortable for you as the aurora then they would be better options


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaptainBlame*
> 
> Aren't there better sensors on the market now? Why buy this?


Because shape, weight matters.
Does not matter if the sensor is better on lets say G502 when its heavy and clumsy like a big tank.


----------



## riznich48

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Because shape, weight matters.
> Does not matter if the sensor is better on lets say G502 when its heavy and clumsy like a big tank.


because everyone finds the g502 clumsy or sees heavy as a bad thing. never change overclock mouse forum.


----------



## Mr moff

Hi guys, I'm just waiting for the postman to deliver mine.
While browsing I saw roach has posted a review on Amazon and says there is big problems with the minox aurora. It's got me kind of worried now.
Has anyone else had enough time with it to give a little review?


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mr moff*
> 
> Hi guys, I'm just waiting for the postman to deliver mine.
> While browsing I saw roach has posted a review on Amazon and says there is big problems with the minox aurora. It's got me kind of worried now.
> Has anyone else had enough time with it to give a little review?


LOL clearly not r0ach

"my name is r0ach and im pretty famous on a certain mouse forum. i would just like to say this mouse has smoothing and while I can't prove it like everything else I have ever claimed, I think everyone should listen to me and not buy this product because I play a lot of MOBA and I can tell this mouse is the reason I am not successful.

-superstar r0ach"


----------



## Mr moff

So do you think it's a windup then or something?


----------



## pgabor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mr moff*
> 
> So do you think it's a windup then or something?


You must be new to the internet


----------



## Mr moff

Lol, I see it now I've read it a couple of times.








I wish the post man would hurry up.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mr moff*
> 
> Lol, I see it now I've read it a couple of times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish the post man would hurry up.


Please give us some first impressions when you get it.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Because shape, weight matters.
> Does not matter if the sensor is better on lets say G502 when its heavy and clumsy like a big tank.
> 
> 
> 
> because everyone finds the g502 clumsy or sees heavy as a bad thing. never change overclock mouse forum.
Click to expand...

Did I say it was equal for everyone?
Learn how to read before you comment.

He asked why this mouse is still an option.
I said why.

Also I never wrote anything that what I thought was fact for everyone, that is my opinions.

Funny you say never change OC mouse forum users since you are a new member.
So yeah, please do change new user that spam garbage.


----------



## riznich48

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Did I say it was equal for everyone?
> Learn how to read before you comment.
> 
> He asked why this mouse is still an option.
> I said why.
> 
> Also I never wrote anything that what I thought was fact for everyone, that is my opinions.
> 
> Funny you say never change OC mouse forum users since you are a new member.
> So yeah, please do change new user that spam garbage.


you stated the g502 was clunky and its sensor doesn't matter when it's clunky . it's right there in black and white. there is no other way to interpret your message. if you meant something else than what you said then maybe you should learn how to write as my reading ability is just fine. now put your tail between your legs and walk away.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> you stated the g502 was clunky and its sensor doesn't matter when it's clunky . it's right there in black and white. there is no other way to interpret your message. if you meant something else than what you said then maybe you should learn how to write as my reading ability is just fine. now put your tail between your legs and walk away.


You are able to read it seems but you don't understand context.


----------



## CaptainBlame

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> sensor isn't everything.


Ya true but in this case doesn't this sensor have terrible LOD? What have they done to remedy this?


----------



## copterguise

Unfortunately, nothing about this mouse matters. I should've known better of course. But I find it impressive that the same guy managing to produce what would be a decent mouse manages to mess up on so many levels. After about a century or so, the mouse is "ready" to go. People eagerly throw cash at it. Then they wait. And wait they will. And lo and behold, there is another delay, for like 2 months. And then not a single word, until bst emerge, telling everyone how his computer crashed and that's the reason for it, as if it's the ONLY way he could possibly get online in 2014.

And then another century of waiting...
Until he pops up again, explaining how he moved the fulfilment to Amazon, which would resolve all issues.
Wait another century and....
Other than not a single word from bst, a lucky few get their Amazon shipped mouse. The very first people to pre-order is still in the dark.

And here we are, waiting again. The lack of communication here proves that this is nothing more than a pathetic, elaborate scam. At this point, no excuse is good enough. I probably shouldn't even mention the post sale support nobody will ever receive, when the guy in charge can't even let people know why their mouse isn't coming anytime soon, and they can't even PayPal dispute it because well, the order was placed a century ago in the promise of delivery in November, and too much time for a dispute has passed.

And this people, is why we can't have nice things. It's also why it's almost certainly a bad idea to buy from amateurs that are not already in the game. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *copterguise*
> 
> Unfortunately, nothing about this mouse matters. I should've known better of course. But I find it impressive that the same guy managing to produce what would be a decent mouse manages to mess up on so many levels. After about a century or so, the mouse is "ready" to go. People eagerly throw cash at it. Then they wait. And wait they will. And lo and behold, there is another delay, for like 2 months. And then not a single word, until bst emerge, telling everyone how his computer crashed and that's the reason for it, as if it's the ONLY way he could possibly get online in 2014.
> 
> And then another century of waiting...
> Until he pops up again, explaining how he moved the fulfilment to Amazon, which would resolve all issues.
> Wait another century and....
> Other than not a single word from bst, a lucky few get their Amazon shipped mouse. The very first people to pre-order is still in the dark.
> 
> And here we are, waiting again. The lack of communication here proves that this is nothing more than a pathetic, elaborate scam. At this point, no excuse is good enough. I probably shouldn't even mention the post sale support nobody will ever receive, when the guy in charge can't even let people know why their mouse isn't coming anytime soon, and they can't even PayPal dispute it because well, the order was placed a century ago in the promise of delivery in November, and too much time for a dispute has passed.
> 
> And this people, is why we can't have nice things. It's also why it's almost certainly a bad idea to buy from amateurs that are not already in the game. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth.


Still don't really give a damn, if a mouse suits me I will buy it, delay or not.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *copterguise*
> 
> After about a century or so, the mouse is "ready" to go.
> And then another century of waiting...
> Wait another century and....
> because well, the order was placed a century ago...
> ...it's the truth.


For we are immortal! 'Tis but the truth thou speakest.


----------



## metal571

True stuff, I'm waiting a very long time to see if this thing is a scam or not


----------



## CaptainBlame

It makes no sense to put such a heavy thick cable on a light mouse like this. Why, for durability at the expense of usability?

Personally I would prefer a thin flexible cable and if it breaks I buy a new mouse.


----------



## ramraze

Turns out bst is a nigerian scammer and his real name is Ali Baba Bushwookie.

Agree with copterguise. You shouldn't trust such a guy with preorders, you should wait first... Same goes with companies like EA, Ubisoft, Activision

I mean guys come on. Waiting 2-3 years for a mere 3090? He is a bit late to the game


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I mean guys come on. Waiting 2-3 years for a mere 3090? He is a bit late to the game


We should be fair. This mouse was supposed to be released at a time the sensor was available with other high end mice on the market. According to BST he then hit burnout with this project and when he got his stuff back together time has passed and we all know how fast things progress on the mouse market (funny to say because it seems not fast enough).

He could have scraped it, but the community kept asking for it and he invested enough into it that releasing the product seemed better than not.

Bad luck.

People don't have to buy it, but for me its features are still desireable. The shape, the weight, the cable (supposed to be flexible), the feet, the switches. All these features together outweight the sensor and these features are not outdated, not any time soon (probably never will be). Besides my current mouse is 3090, too, and even worse, as it's Zowie and I want those proper 400dpi and 800dpi. So for me it actually is an upgrade.

I would have bought the FK1 right away already if it wasn't ridiculously priced (almost 90 USD!!!). Dissatisfied with other mice, so what choice do I have? I'm glad Aurora is an existing alternative for me.


----------



## a_ak57

Sadly the cord seems to have been changed to a thick one that isn't zowie-like at all, so that's actually no longer something to look forward to.


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Sadly the cord seems to have been changed to a thick one that isn't zowie-like at all, so that's actually no longer something to look forward to.


this 'undocumented' change was not ok, in my opinion :/
maybe i'm exaggerating, but i just feel he should've delivered what he said he would deliver.
most people bought the mouse because of _all_ the specs, combined. changing the cord can be a game changer for how good a mouse feels.
oh well..


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Sadly the cord seems to have been changed to a thick one that isn't zowie-like at all, so that's actually no longer something to look forward to.


Afaik we now have one(!) person with first-hand experience of the release version, maybe wait until more people got a chance to get their hands on one before we call the cable on the Aurora bad. Many people seem to have different preferences when it comes to cables it seems.


----------



## a_ak57

Preference doesn't have anything to do with a cable being stiff or thick, that's just a matter of fact (the opinion is how much of a bother that is). You can see in the pics it's fairly thick, and he actually mentions it's noticeably different from a zowie cable. I doubt it's actually a _bad_ cable, but it's obviously not the zowie-like cable it was supposed to be.

And now there's actually someone else saying the cable is stiff. I would agree that we should wait on judging sensor/build quality issues, but cable stiffness/thickness is pretty objective so it's safe to say it's not the cable we were expecting.


----------



## resis




----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Afaik we now have one(!) person with first-hand experience of the release version, maybe wait until more people got a chance to get their hands on one before we call the cable on the Aurora bad. Many people seem to have different preferences when it comes to cables it seems.


Edit: nvm


----------



## ronal

Has anyone in the US gotten theirs yet?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Has anyone in the US gotten theirs yet?


I don't think so, I was the #71 pre-order too and all these kids with massdrop and amazon accounts getting them quicker it seems.


----------



## a_ak57

I'd be surprised since I don't think there are any accounts of ninox site mice actually going out yet (would take several days to get to the US anyway) and the massdrop mice won't be sent out until next week sometime I think.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I mean guys come on. Waiting 2-3 years for a mere 3090? He is a bit late to the game


I don't get why people keep saying that.
As far as I'm aware the only downside of the 3090 is less PCS.
And with 5m/s the aurora has more than enough already.
So what's the big deal if it's "only" a 3090?


----------



## 7Teku

I finally got a refund. This is not worth it to me anymore.


----------



## ronal

I just opened up a Paypal dispute, don't want to wait any longer.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> I don't get why people keep saying that.
> As far as I'm aware the only downside of the 3090 is less PCS.
> And with 5m/s the aurora has more than enough already.
> So what's the big deal if it's "only" a 3090?


Yeah, I'm confused about this bit as well.

Way I see it, people are concerned that the 3090 will be too smoothed. But then the consensus is that some 3310 mice had even more smoothing than the 3090? Even the 3090 at 4000 CPI? So it falls down entirely on how the manufacturer chooses to implement the 3090.

What's the real advantage of the 3310? Guaranteed stable 1000hz, better CPI scalability and... What else? Not exactly a night and day difference compared to a good 3090 implementation.


----------



## delledonne

Quote:


> By bluedot »bst
> All of the UK and Europe orders from ninox.org have now been sent to Amazon fulfillment for dispatch.
> 
> Here are the countries Amazon covers, and the expected delivery dates they have given me (I've put the most popular ones in, but if your country doesn't have a date just ask me and I'll find out):
> 
> UK - 13-15 December
> Austria - 22 December
> Belgium - 18 December
> Bulgaria -
> Cyprus -
> Czech Republic - 29 December
> Denmark - 19 December
> Estonia -
> Finland - 30 December
> France - 20 December
> Germany - 19 December
> Greece -
> Hungary -
> Ireland - 19 December
> Italy - 19 December
> Latvia - 24 December
> Lithuania -
> Luxembourg -
> Malta -
> Netherlands - 19 December
> Poland - 20 December
> Portugal -
> Romania -
> Slovakia -
> Slovenia -
> Spain -
> Sweden - 30 December
> 
> When I get the tracking number from Amazon I'll update your orders and mark them as shipped.
> 
> I'm really sorry it took so long but my plan to transfer the orders to Amazon easily with a program didn't go well at all, and everything else I tried ended up taking ages with no result. In the end I got the orders off the site as a spreadsheet but it needed a lot of messing around to make it compatible with Amazon.
> 
> Thats why its been on amazon for a couple of days, its got nothing to do with Amazon putting it up, its just that they automatically list products you send to them. So all that happened was they arrived at amazon fine, but I couldn't transfer the orders over quickly.


Of course he doesn't mention anything about NA orders. I have a few days left to decide if I should open a paypal dispute and just cancel my order from his site.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delledonne*
> 
> Of course he doesn't mention anything about NA orders. I have a few days left to decide if I should open a paypal dispute and just cancel my order from his site.


That was the reason why I opened a paypal dispute.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> I finally got a refund. This is not worth it to me anymore.


Same. The fact I paid more to receive the mouse later is just bad business.


----------



## Gigantoad

Just got info from Massdrop: Your Ninox Aurora Mouse has shipped and should be arriving soon!


----------



## AnimalK

same for me.


----------



## CorruptBE

Sweet, awaiting some reviews.

Mainly want to know if it's more responsive then other 3310/3090's out there. If not, I'm sticking with my FK2.


----------



## Johan450

Now the waiting part starts... Again, I wonder how long it will take. I got my mouse rock from korea in less than a week, hoping I will have that good luck this time too


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Just got info from Massdrop: Your Ninox Aurora Mouse has shipped and should be arriving soon!


Yep, just got mine as well







.

Looking forward in seeing if this gets delivered to my front door faster than the original first purchases off BST's website. I suspect MassDrop will win yet again when it comes to product shipment because I've always received everything off them fairly quick despite where I live.


----------



## Ickz

So are the NA preorder people going to get their $20 shipping costs refunded or anything? This is a tad ridiculous. I would've been "okay" with the cost if I at least got mine before other orders from outside sites.


----------



## Bitemarks and bloodstains

Just received mine.







This is the first proper mouse I have had.

First impressions are good
The mouse is nice and light
The cable doesn't seem to be dragging
The left and right buttons are precise with no/very little travel
The side buttons can be clicked by pressing the side of the casing but that shouldn't be a problem

Enotus Mouse Test v0.1.4
Mouse: @msmouse.inf,%hid.mousedevice%;HID-compliant mouse
Model: Ninox aurora
Resolution: 1600 dpi \good\
Polling speed: 498 Hz
Max speed: 3.31 m/s (208244 points/s) \excellent\
Precision: 93.7 % (0.81 m/s) \ok\
Smoothness: 7.1 % \good\
Debug data: [('457', '2.00'), ('424', '2.00'), ('409', '2.03'), ('400', '1.98'), ('396', '2.00'), ('394', '2.00'), ('456', '2.00'), ('424', '2.00'), ('407', '2.00'), ('399', '2.01')]

I'll try mousetest again when I get my Mionix sargas 900


----------



## the1onewolf

Neat can you do some side by sides with other devices when you get the chance?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Just received mine.


Just surprised at seeing the packaging look quite professionally, done by some Graphic Designer I guess. Nice to see BST has invested into the packaging of it, to at least make everyone feel like they've purchased a worthy opponent to the Logitech's and Razer's out there.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Just received mine.
> This is the first proper mouse I have had.
> 
> First impressions are good
> The mouse is nice and light
> The cable doesn't seem to be dragging
> The left and right buttons are precise with no/very little travel
> The side buttons can be clicked by pressing the side of the casing but that shouldn't be a problem
> 
> I'll try mousetest again when I get my Mionix sargas 900


It seems the right mousebuttons i several mm higher raised on the shell then the left one.
The left one seems ti lineup with the shell, but the right one seems almost kinda broken how high it's raised.

Seems all 3 that shown theirs have had 1 button raised or lowered significantly.

Still not sure about buying the mouse


----------



## Ickz

So far, this is very worrying. Hopefully this isn't Valor 2.0.


----------



## TheLeadMachine

I ordered mine from the Ninox.org website on November 15th and it still hasn't shipped to me even though I ordered it before it was available on Massdrop.com. I feel robbed.


----------



## Sencha

Sorry to hear about so many people having issues.







shame BST's lack of communication is leaving people in the dark with their orders.

TheLeadMachine....youtube's BF4 TheLeadMachine? if so love your vids


----------



## pr0l4nd

Pre-orders from ninox were sent.

BST : ''When I get the tracking number from Amazon I'll update your orders and mark them as shipped.''


----------



## metal571

Woah wait, is that THE elevate lead?


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Woah wait, is that THE elevate lead?


This is the guy I was thinking of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnLbjwfKsno&list=UU8lJId841RAeJelq-VA_UKg

Superb player/


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> This is the guy I was thinking of.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnLbjwfKsno&list=UU8lJId841RAeJelq-VA_UKg
> 
> Superb player/


Yeah, that's who I was referring to. Epic player with excellent accuracy.


----------



## woll3

Altough its completely OT, arent these weapons banned in NA?


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Yeah, that's who I was referring to. Epic player with excellent accuracy.


Oh sorry man. I do have a recollection of that name now come to think of it.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Altough its completely OT, arent these weapons banned in NA?


The 34 damage model weapons are back because they are now no longer too fast of a kill time due to the damage reduction of the last patch afaik


----------



## delledonne

Not a big fan of BF4 but I did come across this french player named Relaaa; his target acquisition just blew me away. I truly enjoyed watching his videos.


----------



## treav0r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delledonne*
> 
> Not a big fan of BF4 but I did come across this french player named Relaaa; his target acquisition just blew me away. I truly enjoyed watching his videos.


he is obviously cheating like 50% of the competitive battlefield scene, no joke


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> he is obviously cheating like 50% of the competitive battlefield scene, no joke


Not sure if.....


----------



## delledonne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> he is obviously cheating like 50% of the competitive battlefield scene, no joke


Oh, well that's unfortunate.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> he is obviously cheating like 50% of the competitive battlefield scene, no joke


Actually Relaaa is legit and he has been to lans and stuff...
Your comment ... what is this i don't even ...


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> he is obviously cheating like 50% of the competitive battlefield scene, no joke


Definitely not that guy, just looked up his YT. Very good aim and a higher sensitivity.


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pr0l4nd*
> 
> Pre-orders from ninox were sent.
> 
> BST : ''When I get the tracking number from Amazon I'll update your orders and mark them as shipped.''


Thanks, good to know


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> he is obviously cheating like 50% of the competitive battlefield scene, no joke


Relaaa is legit, he has been playing like that for years... Just check his old BF3 videos as well. There are some handcams too.
50% of the competitive scene cheating? rofl... You might be really bad at that game


----------



## Dylan Nails

there's a competitive scene for a game with a 40k playerbase lol?


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> there's a competitive scene for a game with a 40k playerbase lol?


Indeed, competitive scene in Battlefield sucks. I think there are more BRs playing ESL EU than europeans rofl


----------



## metal571

I think there's even CEVO.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> sensor isn't everything. g502 has best sensor on the market yet some people find the mouse unusable.


Kone pure military is more accurate than the g502.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> because everyone finds the g502 clumsy or sees heavy as a bad thing


The vast majority of gamers do. Especially competitive gamers.

Competitive players play longer and more intensely. A heavy mouse would cause faster fatigue. A heavy mouse is harder to control. A heavy mouse is especially inappropriate for grips like fingertip and games like Starcraft. Competitive gamers tend to have more experience with a variety of mice since it's something they care more about than casuals.


----------



## riznich48

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Kone pure military is more accurate than the g502.
> The vast majority of gamers do. Especially competitive gamers.
> 
> Competitive players play longer and more intensely. A heavy mouse would cause faster fatigue. A heavy mouse is harder to control. A heavy mouse is especially inappropriate for grips like fingertip and games like Starcraft. Competitive gamers tend to have more experience with a variety of mice since it's something they care more about than casuals.


many "competitive players" use deathadder, rival, g400, ec1 evo which are all much clunkier than the g502 and still on the heavier side. also you are in the minority with your kpm claim

again, a heavier mouse does not cause more fatigue and is not harder to control than a lighter one if its grip is better for you than the lighter one. for some people weight makes the mouse EASIER to control. deathadder causes me fatigue, g502 doesn't. i fingertip grip and the g502 is far better for my grip than the deathadder and easier to control than the g100s. it is all subjective and a case by case basis yet you will continue to say weight is objectively bad as if the heavier a mouse is the worse it is on a linear scale and the lighter the better. might as well make a 1 gram mouse the size of a sprinkle. easiest mouse to control ever (specially for fingertip!)


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> many "competitive players" use deathadder, rival, g400, ec1 evo which are all much clunkier than the g502 and still on the heavier side.


Out of all those mice you listed, only the Rival is comparable in weight to the G502.
And not many pro players are using it tbh.
To each his own though.

The weight discussion always goes wrong because ppl misunderstand and compare mouse A to mouse B. I prefer lightweight mice but I cannot use the Razer Salmosa Asia Edition. Not of its low weight but because of its size and shape.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> for some people weight makes the mouse EASIER to control. deathadder causes me fatigue, g502 doesn't.


Again, this is a mouse A to B comparison. Not a weight comparison.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> might as well make a 1 gram mouse the size of a sprinkle. easiest mouse to control ever (specially for fingertip!)


No, but if one could manage to make a Sensei or WMO shaped mouse with 1 gram mouse weight, it would be awesome!

My end statement would be: a low weight on a mouse I like is a very welcome bonus.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> many "competitive players" use deathadder, rival, g400, ec1 evo which are all much clunkier than the g502


Not even close. What a ridiculous statement.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> also you are in the minority with your kpm claim


I'm not. Visit the KPM thread. Pretty much everyone is in agreement with me. The people who had a bad experience with it probably had a bad firmware version.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> again, a heavier mouse does not cause more fatigue and is not harder to control than a lighter one if its grip is better for you than the lighter one.


Ok, I'll give you that.

That's actually the reason I had no problem fingertip gripping the Rival - because the rubber side grips were so good.

However, "better grip" just makes the weight problem less problematic. It doesn't make it a good thing whatsoever.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> for some people weight makes the mouse EASIER to control. deathadder causes me fatigue, g502 doesn't. i fingertip grip and the g502 is far better for my grip than the deathadder and easier to control than the g100s.


Uh.................. what?


----------



## riznich48

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Not even close. What a ridiculous statement.


opinions throwing you off again? the g502 is sleek, compact, and easy to hold for my smaller hands.. the other mice i listed are oversized, strangely shaped, and hard to grip for me. very clunky. but you assume everyone's the same. you saying the g502 is clunky is just as ridiculous of a statement.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Uh.................. what?


again, that whole preference/opinion thing. some people find that some weight can make the mouse easier to control over lighter ones. (i do better with kpm or g502 over the g100s due to the added weight alone even though i can grip the g100s fine) and incompatible shape (the deathadder for me) can cause fatigue more than a little extra weight (g502 for me doesn't cause fatigue)


----------



## daav1d

The IE 3.0 is heavier than DA, Rival, EC1, G400... yeah most of the mice except G502.


----------



## trhead

G502 isn't clunky, just a bit too heavy for me personally. I'd prefer 100g or less.


----------



## riznich48

and we'll have to agree to disagree about the kpm sensor performance. i do agree it's a great 3310 implementation and it's almost identical to the g502's sensor. but there's no way it surpasses the g502. the g502 still feels perfect to me where as the kpm might be 99.9% . it could be placebo or due to other factors (better grip on the g502 etc making the cursor feel like a perfect extension of my arm). at best they're virtually equal. i'd be willing to give you that much. but of course people in the kpm thread is where you'd find people who agree with you. news flash- that's the minority..


----------



## daav1d

I have not tried the KPM but from reading this forum it seems like maybe 7/10 people who tried all 3310 mice agree that KPM is the worst...


----------



## riznich48

i've seen a few people here already wish the aurora was a few grams heavier.. and even metal say the little extra weight of the avior makes it easier to control his aim over the fk1 . weight is not something that more = bad less = good . there's a point when too light is bad and too heavy is bad. this point is different for everyone.

yet another reason the g502's biggest flaw is its redundant weight system. if only they could make the base mouse weight lighter and THEN add the weights... oh logitech.


----------



## povohat

I'd love to see some more Aurora talk in here from people who have their mouse already.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> again, a heavier mouse does not cause more fatigue and is not harder to control than a lighter one if its grip is better for you than the lighter one. for some people weight makes the mouse EASIER to control. deathadder causes me fatigue, g502 doesn't.


Perceived weight is more important then actual weight.

It's a combination of grip style, size (vs your handsize) and actual weight. It could all together lead to a mouse that feels like a brick... for some people.


----------



## Gigantoad

I think from a physics point of view there can be only one conclusion. Lighter is better. Heavier by definition means more mass to move. It will require more force to get it moving and more force to stop it. So this will result in more fatique and less accuracy, at least in theory the ideal weight would actually be zero. The other fun thing to think about is that the lighter the mouse the more glide could possibly be handled without unwanted jerking when stopping rapidly. The heavier the mouse, the more counter-movement is needed to stop it after a fast swipe, whereas a mouse with 0 mass could actually just be stopped without effort or at least as fast as you can stop your hand.

Something with weight like a gun could help you keep more steady perhaps, but I don't think that applies to a mouse which is lying flat on the table. Of course it's perfectly fine to prefer heavier mice if you feel this works better for you. My guess is that some people prefer it because it's just feels more substantial or less toyish.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Perceived weight is more important then actual weight.


This guy knows what's up. It all depends on how well the mouse fits your grip style. If it's unwieldy, it can come off feeling "heavier" than a lighter mouse.

Friction contributes to a feeling of "heaviness" as well.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> I think from a physics point of view there can be only one conclusion. Lighter is better. Heavier by definition means more mass to move. It will require more force to get it moving and more force to stop it. So this will result in more fatique and less accuracy, at least in theory the ideal weight would actually be zero. The other fun thing to think about is that the lighter the mouse the more glide could possibly be handled without unwanted jerking when stopping rapidly. The heavier the mouse, the more counter-movement is needed to stop it after a fast swipe, whereas a mouse with 0 mass could actually just be stopped without effort or at least as fast as you can stop your hand.
> 
> Something with weight like a gun could help you keep more steady perhaps, but I don't think that applies to a mouse which is lying flat on the table. Of course it's perfectly fine to prefer heavier mice if you feel this works better for you. My guess is that some people prefer it because it's just feels more substantial or less toyish.


Heavier mice minimize user error in certain situations. Situations that require slow and steady movement, such as tracking moving targets can be a slightly less jittery experience with a heavier mouse. On the other hand, weight increases static friction meaning a bit more lag, bit of jitter and even a chance for overshoot on that initial moment when movement occurs.

So basically, in my opinion: Jerky movements and flickshots = easier to control on lighter mice. Fine, slow and steady movements = easier on heavier mice.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> I think from a physics point of view there can be only one conclusion. Lighter is better. Heavier by definition means more mass to move. It will require more force to get it moving and more force to stop it. So this will result in more fatique and less accuracy, at least in theory the ideal weight would actually be zero. The other fun thing to think about is that the lighter the mouse the more glide could possibly be handled without unwanted jerking when stopping rapidly. The heavier the mouse, the more counter-movement is needed to stop it after a fast swipe, whereas a mouse with 0 mass could actually just be stopped without effort or at least as fast as you can stop your hand.
> 
> Something with weight like a gun could help you keep more steady perhaps, but I don't think that applies to a mouse which is lying flat on the table.


All of this. Lighter is always better.

ALWAYS!


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> Heavier mice minimize user error in certain situations. Situations that require slow and steady movement, such as tracking moving targets can be a slightly less jittery experience with a heavier mouse. On the other hand, weight increases static friction meaning a bit more lag, bit of jitter and even a chance for overshoot on that initial moment when movement occurs.
> 
> So basically, in my opinion: Jerky movements and flickshots = easier to control on lighter mice. Fine, slow and steady movements = easier on heavier mice.


I thought about that but I'm not sure if it's just an illusion. Put your hand on the mouse pad without mouse and try to make such very small tracking movements. Works fine right? Imagine on top of that less or no friction and it shouldn't be an issue at all. On the opposite actually. Imagining my hand controlling directly what happens on screen in a way the mouse does, but without mouse (a bit nonesensical obviously), and I could see that giving incredible control.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> I have not tried the KPM but from reading this forum it seems like maybe 7/10 people who tried all 3310 mice agree that KPM is the worst...


I'm pretty sure all the negative experiences were due to a bad firmware version. I certainly haven't seen the 7/10 ratio that you say though.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> The IE 3.0 is heavier than DA, Rival, EC1, G400... yeah most of the mice except G502.


One of the biggest reasons that I'm trying to find a replacement.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riznich48*
> 
> there's a point when too light is bad and too heavy is bad.


I have yet to ever hold a mouse that was too light.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> I think from a physics point of view there can be only one conclusion. Lighter is better. Heavier by definition means more mass to move. It will require more force to get it moving and more force to stop it. So this will result in more fatique and less accuracy, at least in theory the ideal weight would actually be zero. The other fun thing to think about is that the lighter the mouse the more glide could possibly be handled without unwanted jerking when stopping rapidly. The heavier the mouse, the more counter-movement is needed to stop it after a fast swipe, whereas a mouse with 0 mass could actually just be stopped without effort or at least as fast as you can stop your hand.
> 
> Something with weight like a gun could help you keep more steady perhaps, but I don't think that applies to a mouse which is lying flat on the table. Of course it's perfectly fine to prefer heavier mice if you feel this works better for you. My guess is that some people prefer it because it's just feels more substantial or less toyish.


I agree completely.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> Fine, slow and steady movements = easier on heavier mice.


When are you making slow and steady movements in games? Maybe if you're using the mouse to draw or something, but certainly not in any competitive games. Gaming is all about speed + accuracy.

If you're not able to make slow and steady movements without jittering then your sensitivity is too high. And from how common it is for people to be using over 1000dpi, you can bet that a lot of people's sensitivities are way too high.

Like I said before, heavier weight fatigues faster. It's not the right method to increase steadiness; lowering your sensitivity is.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> I thought about that but I'm not sure if it's just an illusion. Put your hand on the mouse pad without mouse and try to make such very small tracking movements. Works fine right? Imagine on top of that less or no friction and it shouldn't be an issue at all. On the opposite actually. Imagining my hand controlling directly what happens on screen in a way the mouse does, but without mouse (a bit nonesensical obviously), and I could see that giving incredible control.


Yeah, I've thought of this too, and I agree this would be the ideal. Something like an electronic mouse pad that detects hand/finger movements.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> I thought about that but I'm not sure if it's just an illusion. Put your hand on the mouse pad without mouse and try to make such very small tracking movements. Works fine right? Imagine on top of that less or no friction and it shouldn't be an issue at all. On the opposite actually. Imagining my hand controlling directly what happens on screen in a way the mouse does, but without mouse (a bit nonesensical obviously), and I could see that giving incredible control.


I know what you mean, but that all changes when you're actually holding something and dragging it across a surface. Also, imagining is one thing, but in action, every little jitter you make but don't notice would translate into cursor movement.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> When are you making slow and steady movements in games? Maybe if you're using the mouse to draw or something, but certainly not in any competitive games. Gaming is all about speed + accuracy.


Strafe jumping in Quake. Also lightning gun. Optimal strafing demands a fast initial flick but slow and steady moues movement at a precise angle afterwards. Lightning gun obviously demands slow and precise tracking as well.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> If you're not able to make slow and steady movements without jittering then your sensitivity is too high. And from how common it is for people to be using over 1000dpi, you can bet that a lot of people's sensitivities are way too high.
> 
> Like I said before, heavier weight fatigues faster. It's not the right method to increase steadiness; lowering your sensitivity is.


While I agree with this, it's not exactly the subject of the conversation. We lower sensitivity to make up for imperfections in our movement. Heavier mice translate those mistakes a bit less. That's all there is to it. I prefer light mice and lower sensitivity (I rely on Quake's acceleration for wide flicks) as well because while heavier mice might help some situations, they are more of a detriment overall.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> Yeah, I've thought of this too, and I agree this would be the ideal. Something like an electronic mouse pad that detects hand/finger movements.


Yeah, we got something similar in trackpads. Now imagine dragging your hand over a surface. It would hardly be ideal. A solution would be attaching a teflon pad to your palm or something, but there's another issue. Consider how much of your steadiness in-game comes from the fact that you're gripping onto an object. Grip onto a pencil and draw something. Now loosen your grip. Notice the difference.


----------



## M0rb1d

Just got an E-mail from Ninox that my mouse is shipped!


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M0rb1d*
> 
> Just got an E-mail from Ninox that my mouse is shipped!


Lucky devil, I have only gotten the Massdrop notification but absolutely nothing from BST







.


----------



## TheGMT

Just received my second Aurora, which of course I have no use for. Hoping that sending it back isn't as much of a hassle as I currently presume. On the whole it's a good mouse. Fantastic weight, fantastic shape, sensor is a 3090, it's exactly what you would expect. Mouse 1, 2 and 3 aren't quite G302 levels of good but with some wearing in they're perfectly fine. Mouse wheel is very smooth, no conceivable notches, which I hate but that's personal preference. Mouse 4 and 5 are rather nice. The cable is the big issue, but similarly improving with wear. I'm sticking with the G302, the Aurora just doesn't do it for me now that I've been spoiled with the build quality and quality of life features that come as part of the G302 package. Good luck to all of you still waiting, objectively speaking it's a good mouse.


----------



## CorruptBE

Has anyone owning a FK1 received one yet?

Is it more responsive? More snappy?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I have yet to ever hold a mouse that was too light.


Weight distribution probably becomes more important though as the mouse becomes lighter. Having a 50 gram mouse with 2/3d's of it's weight near the front or back would feel awkward just as much imo.


----------



## TheGMT

I don't currently own one but I did have a FK1 for a while. I honestly thought they felt pretty similar, but of course the Aurora is much smaller and lighter, so one could argue that if they were similar on a technical level I would be biased towards the Aurora, in a round about way I might be tempted to say it's a little less snappy. Still feels fine, worse than the G302 but fine. It's a 3090 and performs like one with decent firmware.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Has anyone owning a FK1 received one yet?
> 
> Is it more responsive? More snappy?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGMT*
> 
> I don't currently own one but I did have a FK1 for a while. I honestly thought they felt pretty similar, but of course the Aurora is much smaller and lighter, so one could argue that if they were similar on a technical level I would be biased towards the Aurora, in a round about way I might be tempted to say it's a little less snappy. Still feels fine, worse than the G302 but fine. It's a 3090 and performs like one with decent firmware.


Bst already said he can probably upgrade the pcb with a 33xx sensor in the future.
So for me more important obviously, is there finally a mouse with an equally as good shape as the mx300/G1?

Guess i'll know it in ~3 days.


----------



## a_ak57

I have an FK1 and apparently will get my Aurora tomorrow or Tuesday (yay switching to massdrop) but I'm way less sensitive to sensors/tracking than most of you. I'm concerned primarily with weight/shape.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I have an FK1 and apparently will get my Aurora tomorrow or Tuesday (yay switching to massdrop) but I'm way less sensitive to sensors/tracking than most of you. I'm concerned primarily with weight/shape.


same with me, if I can get a mouse that has a half decent sensor but it fits my hand like a glove then that's all I need. But finding that perfect fit is proving to be a bit tricky... And expensive


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I have an FK1 and apparently will get my Aurora tomorrow or Tuesday (yay switching to massdrop) but I'm way less sensitive to sensors/tracking than most of you. I'm concerned primarily with weight/shape.


Less concerned about the shape. Used a MX300 when I was younger, I know it falls within the lines of shapes I can use without strain, etc.


----------



## zeflow

Does anyone know if these are shipping to the States yet? I haven't received an email shipment notice.

Thanks


----------



## FoxWolf1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Does anyone know if these are shipping to the States yet? I haven't received an email shipment notice.
> 
> Thanks


I'm in the US and haven't heard anything about mine, either.

Will review if/when it arrives.


----------



## loki993

Some massdrop users in the US have gotten them I think, though Im curious as to how they were delivered on Sunday. Yet us preorders still dont even have an idea of when we will get the mouse.


----------



## Ickz

I was order #41 on Ninox on day one and my status still says processing. Judging by stuff I'm seeing, I'm starting not to care because I'll probably be sending it back.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *loki993*
> 
> Some massdrop users in the US have gotten them I think, though Im curious as to how they were delivered on Sunday. Yet us preorders still dont even have an idea of when we will get the mouse.


Here in Australia the postal system is now delivering 7 days a week due to HUGE back loads piling up. Everyone is buying stuff from everywhere on this planet hence the 3rd world postal system use to only handling letters and bills has now fallen over due to vast amounts of packages.

Well at least the postal system here is always collapsing near Christmas time every year now, so it's normal behaviour. I also know that I shall not see a lot of my stuff until early to late January 2015.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Here in Australia the postal system is now delivering 7 days a week due to HUGE back loads piling up. Everyone is buying stuff from everywhere on this planet hence the 3rd world postal system use to only handling letters and bills has now fallen over due to vast amounts of packages.
> 
> Well at least the postal system here is always collapsing near Christmas time every year now, so it's normal behaviour. I also know that I shall not see a lot of my stuff until early to late January 2015.


I had to laugh at this, I work for Australia post


----------



## Screwball

3310 edition when?


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Screwball*
> 
> 3310 edition when?


Probably 2018 or 2019 if he starts working on it after these orders are taken care of.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *loki993*
> 
> Some massdrop users in the US have gotten them I think, though Im curious as to how they were delivered on Sunday. Yet us preorders still dont even have an idea of when we will get the mouse.


USPS delivers packages 7 days a week now, even on Sundays. This is fairly new.


----------



## Poopsticker

I'm in the US, and Im expecting my order from Massdrop to come in sometime tomorrow since my package is currently in my city.


----------



## RentoN

Any idea how long shipping from whereever the aurora is shipped from to germany might take?
It has been shipped on the 12th, so I've got some hope it will be here before christmas.


----------



## poros1ty

I received my mouse from Massdrop on 12/14 and tested it a bit today. While I really like the shape, feel, and look, I am quite disappointed to say that I have a defective mouse. I hope this is not a widespread issue, but I don't think these mice went through great QC if such a glaring problem with the mouse buttons exist. More on this later in the post.



Here is a comparison between the FK, Aurora, and Abyssus 2014. The mouse doesn't disappoint visually, but most importantly it has a perfect size particularly for finger tip grip and/or claw. The weight is very light and the feel/shape is similar logitech g3 and even mx300 a bit. I loved both those mice, so I like the similar shape. I didn't have any issues with the side buttons or scroll wheel, and only think to mention about the cord is that it is very thick but it hasn't been an issue so far.



Some mouse test results. I had no problems with the mouse sensor and could not get it to malfunction.



I am labeling my mouse defective because mouse 1 and 2 buttons have significantly different heights. They are not even close to being symmetric relative to the center of the mouse above the cord, as shown in the picture. While the defaults positions (heights) and actuation points are different are different for each button, it is possible that the physical distance to actuate remains the same for each button. In my case they are not the same distance and I have tested it extensively. The flaw is very apparent when rocket jumping, with mouse 2 set to jump. Because of the ever so slight distance to to actuate, rocket jumps are ineffective and horribly unreliable when trying to achieve a rocket jump with maximum height. When clicked simultaneously, the mouse 2 actuation occurs just before that of mouse 1, which means you absorb less of the impact from the rocket and do not achieve high rocket jumps.

In the first video below, I cannot rocket jump once from red armor to the top level in 20 tries on DM6. This is not an issue with the Abyssus 2014, shown in the second video. All settings are the same; all I did was switch mice.








Watching the demo of rocket jumping with the aurora using a timescale of .1 you can clearly see that the mouse 2 actuates before mouse 1, which explains the inability to rocket jump effectively with the mouse. Here is the download link for the demo for anyone interested.

http://www26.zippyshare.com/v/94768031/file.html

I would really like to use this mouse, but until this issue is solved I will stick with the Abyssus as I can at least reliably rocket jump with it.

Edit:

I've added two images, screen caps of both demos used to make the rocket jump videos to show that the angles when looked down are the same. Please note, the images are the instant right before the rocket is fired. You can see how in the first image the shadow of the player is smaller, because I am already in the air from jumping (mouse 2) and it shows the actuation point differences as the rocket has yet to fire even though I'm airborn.


----------



## Nilizum

^
"I am labeling my mouse defective because mouse 1 and 2 buttons have significantly different heights."

I just looked at your image, and I've gotta say... Those buttons are REALLY _significantly_ different. /sarcasm


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> ^
> "I am labeling my mouse defective because mouse 1 and 2 buttons have significantly different heights."
> 
> I just looked at your image, and I've gotta say... Those buttons are REALLY _significantly_ different. /sarcasm


Show me any mouse made by a professional company like Razor, Logitech or Zowie, where the mouse buttons straight out the box look that screwed up. "QC passed" sticker on the bottom of the mouse.... lol my ass.

Anyways, the fact of the height difference being significant or not is a moot point anyways when the actuation distances are different. That is the real problem. I could care less about the heights if the buttons actuate fine.


----------



## trhead

I'm a mouse2/jump Quake player since 1998, and I don't think this is a problem. In fact it is actually better if mouse2 is slightly easier to press from personal experience. I have so many mice and it takes some time for your hand/fingers to adjust to achieve those perfect rjs. You just need to get used to it imo.

My Roccat Kone Pure which cost me almost $100 had a similar problem but in this case mouse1 was way easier to activate. This means failed rjs almost every time because as you know if you fire a rocket before jumping you won't rj at all.

It would be silly for me to post my fail rjs videos, on the first day of every mouse I buy.


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> Show me any mouse made by a professional company like Razor, Logitech or Zowie, where the mouse buttons straight out the box look that screwed up. "QC passed" sticker on the bottom of the mouse.... lol my ass.
> 
> Anyways, the fact of the height difference being significant or not is a moot point anyways when the actuation distances are different. That is the real problem. I could care less about the heights if the buttons actuate fine.


I have 40+ gaming mice, many from well known brands that have this issue. Its just what it is.

This is the reason why Cooller who is also a mouse2 jumper made so many failed rjs on his new EC2. Huano switches amplify this problem even more. Its the reason why I don't buy Zowies anymore.


----------



## Nilizum

@porosity

Here's what's wrong with your post.

You say the buttons are _significantly_ different, which they are not compared the the other examples in this thread. You also say that the actuation point is later, even though in the video you clearly don't even aim the rocket straight down for the better vertical boost, but you do for the abyssus video. Lastly, you claim you have the same settings, when the Abyssus's 1600 dpi, assuming that you did it through razer drivers, is different than the Ninox's 1600 dpi, which is probably why you aren't aiming at the ground at the same time.

In other words, you're making a poorly controlled test and then claiming there's a defect. I don't have a problem with you claiming that there's a problem, but I do have a problem with the methods of your tests and presentation.

For example, if you're testing button actuation, why not just do the test aiming straight down to begin with before rocket jumping? Or, if you wanted to actually do the actuation test, actually do a dual screen with the mouse and video sync'd. Hell, why even do rocket jumps for an actuation test? You're throwing in the other variable of you launching yourself at the right time.

Also, this as well:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> It would be silly for me to post my fail rjs videos, on the first day of every mouse I buy.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> @porosity
> 
> Here's what's wrong with your post.
> 
> You say the buttons are _significantly_ different, which they are not compared the the other examples in this thread. You also say that the actuation point is later, even though in the video you clearly don't even aim the rocket straight down for the better vertical boost, but you do for the abyssus video. Lastly, you claim you have the same settings, when the Abyssus's 1600 dpi, assuming that you did it through razer drivers, is different than the Ninox's 1600 dpi, which is probably why you aren't aiming at the ground at the same time.
> 
> In other words, you're making a poorly controlled test and then claiming there's a defect. I don't have a problem with you claiming that there's a problem, but I do have a problem with the methods of your tests and presentation.
> 
> For example, if you're testing button actuation, why not just do the test aiming straight down to begin with before rocket jumping? Or, if you wanted to actually do the actuation test, actually do a dual screen with the mouse and video sync'd. Hell, why even do rocket jumps for an actuation test? You're throwing in the other variable of you failing to press spacebar at the right time.


No offense intended, but this is a very bad post.

First off, he's aiming correctly.

Second, there's no spacebar involved. I'd understand if you're unfamiliar with the common binding of M2 to jump among Quake players, but the guy made it abundantly clear that he bound M2 to jump. It's just a matter of paying attention to what he's saying.

Trhead is correct in that a new mouse will always require some adaptation, but so many consistently failed rocket jumps in a row is something that never, ever happened to me in any adaptation period. I've used some true junk to play Quake over the years, but I've never had something like this happen. Poros1ty clearly demonstrated he's a capable rocket jumper, there's no lack of skill involved here. Perhaps he could get used to this mouse defect, perhaps not -- the point is, why should he? Where did bst market variance between M1 and M2 as a feature?

I've noticed this is a bit of a trend on this forum. When someone finds an issue with their mouse that the majority cannot relate to, a lot of people immediately assume said person is exaggerating.

Guy said he has 40 (*40!*) mice under his belt. If he can rocket jump just fine with them and using this mouse prevents him from doing so... Well, figuring out the culprit is simple math.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> @porosity
> 
> Here's what's wrong with your post.
> 
> You say the buttons are _significantly_ different, which they are not compared the the other examples in this thread. You also say that the actuation point is later, even though in the video you clearly don't even aim the rocket straight down for the better vertical boost, but you do for the abyssus video. Lastly, you claim you have the same settings, when the Abyssus's 1600 dpi, assuming that you did it through razer drivers, is different than the Ninox's 1600 dpi, which is probably why you aren't aiming at the ground at the same time.
> 
> In other words, you're making a poorly controlled test and then claiming there's a defect. I don't have a problem with you claiming that there's a problem, but I do have a problem with the methods of your tests and presentation.
> 
> For example, if you're testing button actuation, why not just do the test aiming straight down to begin with before rocket jumping? Or, if you wanted to actually do the actuation test, actually do a dual screen with the mouse and video sync'd. Hell, why even do rocket jumps for an actuation test? You're throwing in the other variable of you failing to press spacebar at the right time.


1) They are different, as seen in the picture. What is significant to me might not be significant to you. But for me, those height differences are significant especially considering when I paid for a professional gaming mouse marketed as "high quality" as shown on the box.

2) I don't need a perfect controlled test to see a mouse is defective. I am using the default settings for both mice, no drivers installed. That means 1800 dpi for Abyssus and 1600 dpi for the Aurora. I have played quake for a long time and I know how to rocket jump. Both videos were done one right after the other and I did both rocket jumps exactly the same with both mice. If you want to believe I failed 20 rocket jump attempts in a row with the Aurora on purpose, go ahead if that'll help you sleep at night.


----------



## Artifact

Just got the shipping notice for mine. After reading all these comments I'm starting to wonder if this was a good idea though.


----------



## povohat

Thought I'd share this review from TF.TV with you guys. It appears to be the only video review up on youtube so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRidzv5PInQ


----------



## ClickTap

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> I received my mouse from Massdrop on 12/14 and tested it a bit today. While I really like the shape, feel, and look, I am quite disappointed to say that I have a defective mouse. I hope this is not a widespread issue, but I don't think these mice went through great QC if such a glaring problem with the mouse buttons exist. More on this later in the post.
> 
> I am labeling my mouse defective because mouse 1 and 2 buttons have significantly different heights. They are not even close to being symmetric relative to the center of the mouse above the cord, as shown in the picture. While the defaults positions (heights) and actuation points are different are different for each button, it is possible that the physical distance to actuate remains the same for each button. In my case they are not the same distance and I have tested it extensively. The flaw is very apparent when rocket jumping, with mouse 2 set to jump. Because of the ever so slight distance to to actuate, rocket jumps are ineffective and horribly unreliable when trying to achieve a rocket jump with maximum height. When clicked simultaneously, the mouse 2 actuation occurs just before that of mouse 1, which means you absorb less of the impact from the rocket and do not achieve high rocket jumps.





Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> Show me any mouse made by a professional company like Razor, Logitech or Zowie, where the mouse buttons straight out the box look that screwed up. "QC passed" sticker on the bottom of the mouse.... lol my ass.
> 
> Anyways, the fact of the height difference being significant or not is a moot point anyways when the actuation distances are different. That is the real problem. I could care less about the heights if the buttons actuate fine.


I would agree with this sentiment (ahem Zowie)
I don't get why you're getting some flak for pointing this out. It shouldn't be like that, bad QC is bad QC and normal mice don't have this issue.
I also imagine it probably looks worse in real life.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> I am using the default settings for both mice, no drivers installed. That means 1800 dpi for Abyssus and 1600 dpi for the Aurora.


i find you should at least recalculate the sens for the aurora then, because in my experience, what hinders rocket jumping alot is, when you start using a lower sens than you're used to.


----------



## ghostlacuna

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> @porosity
> 
> Here's what's wrong with your post.
> 
> You say the buttons are _significantly_ different, which they are not compared the the other examples in this thread. You also say that the actuation point is later, even though in the video you clearly don't even aim the rocket straight down for the better vertical boost, but you do for the abyssus video. Lastly, you claim you have the same settings, when the Abyssus's 1600 dpi, assuming that you did it through razer drivers, is different than the Ninox's 1600 dpi, which is probably why you aren't aiming at the ground at the same time.
> 
> In other words, you're making a poorly controlled test and then claiming there's a defect. I don't have a problem with you claiming that there's a problem, but I do have a problem with the methods of your tests and presentation.
> 
> For example, if you're testing button actuation, why not just do the test aiming straight down to begin with before rocket jumping? Or, if you wanted to actually do the actuation test, actually do a dual screen with the mouse and video sync'd. Hell, why even do rocket jumps for an actuation test? You're throwing in the other variable of you launching yourself at the right time.


Why do you focus so much on the pure aesthetics of how the buttons look? even if the buttons where flawless and even they could still have different actuation points and then the problem would still be the same.

If he can be consistent with all his other mice but not with bst´s then its probably not his rocket jumps that are bad but the mouse that does not work for him


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> i find you should at least recalculate the sens for the aurora then, because in my experience, what hinders rocket jumping alot is, when you start using a lower sens than you're used to.


His mouse movement in the video is correct though.

Besides, 1600 DPI and 1800 DPI are not exactly a huge difference. Certainly not enough to make you fail every rocket jump you attempt. Optimal rocket jumping is simple enough when you get a hang of it. You can do it on pretty much anything provided enough PCS for the quick vertical swipe. The difference between the two videos clearly comes down to the inconsistency between M1 and M2. There's really no reason to nitpick his videos so thoroughly.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> His mouse movement in the video is correct though.


It looked a lot like he did not look down enough with the Aurora.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It looked a lot like he did not look down enough with the Aurora.


He definitely looked down plenty enough to reach the platform. In fact, I'm straining to see any difference in the angle between the two videos.


----------



## Ice009

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> I had to laugh at this, I work for Australia post


It's not that bad is it? I want to order some stuff during the Christmas period. I've never had to wait the times Elrick is saying though.

I just got a package from the US last week that was delivered through Australia Post after it arrived in the country and that arrived fairly quickly.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It looked a lot like he did not look down enough with the Aurora.


I added two images at the bottom of my original post that show the angle I am looking down at right before the rocket jump in both videos.


----------



## thizito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> I added two images at the bottom of my original post that show the angle I am looking down at right before the rocket jump in both videos.


Just take time and adapt, you will fix this yourself, is a play style, play style can or cannot be adapted..

im almost 90% sure you can rocketjump just so well with aurora if you try it in 1 week. add some sentitivity.. idk.
raise m_pitch m_yaw values, etc..

looks like a microsecond of clicking button difference will not make it unusable.

and we dont even know there is this difference


----------



## loki993

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> USPS delivers packages 7 days a week now, even on Sundays. This is fairly new.


Interesting, Id didn't know that, last I heard I actually thought they were trying to take away days. I was out and abort yesterday and even drove past a USPS truck and wondered what he was doing out on a Sunday.

Back on topic though the fact that I preordered my mouse 2 months ago. I paid 20 dollars more that nearly everyone that's gotten it already. I still have no idea when I'm getting it and BST has provided absolutely no updates about it , even after updating other people on when they will get theirs. Add to the fact that Im hearing less then stellar reviews on it now and the FK2 is out, which is what I was really waiting for. I sort of bought that thing as a holdover, something fun to play with until the FK2 came ore. I'm very lose to cancelling my order now. The sad thing is all I needed was an update..all of that other stuff wouldn't matter if BST could take 5 minutes to go to the thread and say whats going on. I really don't think that too much to ask for someone that jumped in from the beginning, has been waiting 2 months now whit basically no updates and has been watching other people get theirs for a week now.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Just take time and adapt, you will fix this yourself, is a play style, play style can or cannot be adapted..
> 
> im almost 90% sure you can rocketjump just so well with aurora if you try it in 1 week. add some sentitivity.. idk.
> raise m_pitch m_yaw values, etc..
> 
> looks like a microsecond of clicking button difference will not make it unusable.
> 
> and we dont even know there is this difference


I'm not buying mice as a charity. I have reasonable expectations for a professional gaming mouse, one of which are reliable left and right mouse buttons, which these are not. There are plenty of decent mice these days so no I won't adjust to a defective mouse or a mouse with a flawed design; I will instead be returning it and getting my money back.

I'm not sure you understand the problem. This is not something that can be solved with changing the sensitivity or m_pitch. The physical distance to make the buttons actuate are different between the right and left buttons. I have tested this extensively. It's very difficult to get the mouse to rocket jump accurately. I have been able to do it, but it's probably one out of 50 tries and you have to click in a particular spot which is difficult to duplicate and I have to hold the mouse in a way that feels unnatural to me.

It isn't really possible to adjust to it either by clicking one button before the other, because it is the jump which actuates first before firing, which means you need to attempt the rocket jump first by shooting and then jumping... which is very unnatural to begin with, and the amount of time you need to shoot before you jump is such a miniscule amount of time, that it is basically humanly impossible. I've tried this, it just doesn't work; the rocket jump ends up being even worse if you try to shoot first rather than click both buttons simultaneously.


----------



## thizito

Exactly, you paid because you WANT
I Have to defend bst
A bunch of people buy crappy mices everywhere everyday , if this i bad for you, is your problem

As the other guy said , if that is the only issue you dont like about aurora.. Try harder to rjump, you are probably too bad at jumping to adapt
You said professional, you are a tier 2 quake player or less for sure, i respect old binds m2 jump, but maybe is time to ADAPT or stop crying

Btw im defrag player too and i liked aurora jumping on m2 but my main bind is space anyway, but since my defrag skills are better with salmosa ill keep it and play more raw games like cs with aurora

Professional Player - by Unknown nickname


----------



## Erecshyrinol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Exactly, you paid because you WANT
> I Have to defend bst
> A bunch of people buy crappy mices everywhere everyday , if this i bad for you, is your problem
> 
> As the other guy said , if that is the only issue you dont like about aurora.. Try harder to rjump, you are probably too bad at jumping to adapt
> You said professional, you are a tier 2 quake player or less for sure, i respect old binds m2 jump, but maybe is time to ADAPT or stop crying
> 
> Btw im defrag player too and i liked aurora jumping on m2 but my main bind is space anyway, but since my defrag skills are better with salmosa ill keep it and play more raw games like cs with aurora
> 
> Professional Player - by Unknown nickname


This has got to be a trolling attempt. I'm not talking about your English either, but utterly laughable argumentation.

Any moment now bst could come in and apologize for this defect and I bet you'd still defend the mouse regardless.

Professionals adapt to gear they're sponsored to use, not broken gear.


----------



## a_ak57

BST regarding order status and discontent:
Quote:


> About the US/international orders:
> 
> Obviously my pick and pack warehouse still didn't manage to get a Royal Mail account, I know some people think that sounds odd and I'm one of them :/ I really don't know why its been such a big hassle.
> 
> So since Amazon worked ok for the EU I'm going to send the American orders out the same way. I wanted to send the stock there today but I can't sign up for an american Amazon seller account, it just gives me a blank screen (what a surprise there would be another problem). So I have contacted support with all my details, hopefully they'll set it up for me very soon.
> 
> For the rest of the international orders I will send by Royal Mail myself.
> 
> For the people who feel bad about the massdrop customers getting their mice sooner and cheaper, theres a few things I could do, but I haven't decided yet exactly what. But just wanted those people to know that I'm not ignoring it, I will do something about it.


----------



## Poopsticker

Some *positive* opinions/impressions of those on the esr forums about the ninox aurora ( http://esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/ ) :

_"Sensor performs really well for me, only mice I used with the 3310 was the zowie fk1. I definitely prefer the aurora a lot more, however the shape is the main reason for that.
Mouse I was using previously was the logitech g100s, and the sensor on the aurora definitely feels better by comparison." - Shuki

"I haven't used a 3310 mouse, but the sensor feels flawless to me, I haven't been able to make it malfunction on my qck+. It feels really snappy.
The mouse overall reminds me of the g100s, but better in basically every respect (has side buttons, sensor doesn't malfuction, mouse wheel is better imo)
After playing a bit today the cable isn't bothering me at all, and I've been able to hit some nice shots. I think this is a keeper." - Sab0o

"just got my mouse today from massdrop, i don't really have any issues with the mouse wheel or the m1 being too high" - shoto1699

"Just got mine, have to say I'm really grateful that somebody went out and single handedly mass produced an mx300 style mouse. Tried emailing the "big" companies about it before and didn't even get a response.
Buttons on mine are perfect, the coating is amazing, cable is thick but I don't find it a problem at all as it can easily be bent to shape. Only thing I could personally wish for is a slightly fatter rear end (heheh I know how that sounds) as it's more slanted than mx300 so feels a bit smaller even though it's wider than g100s at the front.
Cheers for your efforts dude, I hope this mini storm calms down because we don't want to lose somebody who designs mice to gaming spec requests instead of for Mr Sunday Gamer with his 20 million dpi thousand button masterpiece." - Comment #775
_

Seems like not everyone has issues with this mouse, for those of you feeling doubtful.


----------



## thizito

I write fast on my mobile.. somethings my english get crazy
and i know i speak it very bad.

anyway. people who use the mice just for jumping enjoy the mice..
i even respect the weird bindings.. i know people who go forward mouse1 back mouse2...

I just wanted to tell the Mr. Professional, the decision to buy is his "fault"
Everyone else liked switches/click.. too much nerd in-depth analysis from tier 2 player.
Come on deal with it. make rj bind, idk. or just dont use aurora..

Huano switches in unplayable for many people, and i never seen they saying is defective.

So for Tf2 demoman players using stickie weapon.. who activate mouse2 and fire mouse1.. mouse is perfect? not rly


----------



## ronal

I'll wait till massdrop gets it again before reordering one.


----------



## Screwball

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> So for Tf2 demoman players using stickie weapon.. who activate mouse2 and fire mouse1.. mouse is perfect? not rly


WARHURYEAH gave the mouse a positive review and he is probably the best demo still playing next to Kaidus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRidzv5PInQ


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Holy crap that mouse is tiny... It looks tiny in comparison to an already small mouse - the FK.

Welp.


----------



## M0rb1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Holy crap that mouse is tiny... It looks tiny in comparison to an already small mouse - the FK.
> 
> Welp.


I wouldn't consider the FK a small mouse, that's what I call "medium". (Comming from a G100s user)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M0rb1d*
> 
> I wouldn't consider the FK a small mouse, that's what I call "medium". (Comming from a G100s user)


Are the 518, g5, 3.0, DA, 1.1, copperhead, etc. all large mice then? I would say those are the medium/normal. And they're all about 5mm wider than the FK1.


----------



## povohat

So if the 3.0 is considered medium/normal, what mouse would be considered large?


----------



## M0rb1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Are the 518, g5, 3.0, DA, 1.1, copperhead, etc. all large mice then? I would say those are the medium/normal. And they're all about 5mm wider than the FK1.


I would call them large, yes. Except for the 1.1 maybe, that one would fit in with medium aswell. (I don't know about the copperhead) Almost all "ergonomic" mice are large.


----------



## thizito

salmosa asian , cmstorm spawn, logitech mini, zowie mico, g100s, mx300/g1 = small

wmo, aurora, mx310, zowie fk's = medium

da, 3.0, g400's sized, g502 etc = big

simple isnt ?

I think you never get an salmosa mini.. this thing is ~40g and 1/2 size of aurora







and me and many track very well on it


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> I think you never get an salmosa mini.. this thing is ~40g


It's actually around 60g.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> So if the 3.0 is considered medium/normal, what mouse would be considered large?


----------



## thizito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> It's actually around 60g.


Razer Salmosa - 115 x 63 x 37 mm, ~60 g
Razer Salmosa Pro-gaming Edition - 95,9 x 54,4 x 33,3 mm, ~45 g


----------



## iBzzz

Got mine, managed to unbox and have a quick go with it and here's my initial impressions:

Shape: Seems pretty comfortable on first use but I like small mice (WMO, Kinzu etc). I find the FK14 too big, this is about right for me.

Sensor: Superb, no sign of smoothing and really responsive. LOD might be a tiny bit too high but its still pretty low (QCK+). Almost feels jittery tho with the low weight of the mouse however but something I would get used to I imagine

Cable: Mine seems small? It's literally the same size as my Kinzu V2 cord at least but it behaves much like the Zowie cords IMO

Driver: Decent enough for setting "modes" and works as expected.

HOWEVER mine seems defected also...my right mouse button is superb but the left is broken to the point of it being hard to click which is a real shame as if the left behaved the same as the right this would be an awesome mouse and possibly the best I've used since the WMO (!)

Is there an RMA process or even a way I can fix this myself?

Edit: I'll see if I can "bed" it in a bit first but its mentally hard work left clicking


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Razer Salmosa - 115 x 63 x 37 mm, ~60 g
> Razer Salmosa Pro-gaming Edition - 95,9 x 54,4 x 33,3 mm, ~45 g


I own an asian pro-gaming edition salmosa. I promise you it's around 60g (I put it on a scale). Your source is wrong.


----------



## thizito

Well, looks like a really balanced ~60g them, i feel it very nicely


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iBzzz*
> 
> Sensor: Superb, no sign of smoothing and really responsive.


What mice have you used where you felt smoothing, and what mice where you didn't?


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Razer Salmosa - 115 x 63 x 37 mm, ~60 g
> Razer Salmosa Pro-gaming Edition - 95,9 x 54,4 x 33,3 mm, ~45 g


Razer Salmosa Pro-gaming Edition:


----------



## M0rb1d

I just recieved mine, and oh god, what is it responsive. I thought my G100s was snappy, but this mouse brings that word to a whole new level.

Anyway, has anyone managed to open it up already? I removed the screw and the backside came loose, but I still can't take off the top shell.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M0rb1d*
> 
> I just recieved mine, and oh god, what is it responsive. I thought my G100s was snappy, but this mouse brings that word to a whole new level.
> 
> Anyway, has anyone managed to open it up already? I removed the screw and the backside came loose, but I still can't take off the top shell.


Hammer time..








I think it's like a G100s' shell. Hooks on the front, screw in the back. http://www.erasem.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/P3070267.jpg
Try pull the top "backward" a bit.


----------



## Ickz

If mine has uneven buttons, the first thing I'm doing is opening it up. Hopefully its fixable


----------



## loki993

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ickz*
> 
> If mine has uneven buttons, the first thing I'm doing is opening it up. Hopefully its fixable


same here and if that doesnt work Ill just swap the board into a WMO I have with the crappy sensor.


----------



## fLaPzZ

Just got mine and the L + R mouse button gaps are pretty much perfect. The clicks feel identical. I love the lightness.

I'm just gonna plug her in now and play some CS GO.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fLaPzZ*
> 
> Just got mine and the L + R mouse button gaps are pretty much perfect. The clicks feel identical. I love the lightness.
> 
> I'm just gonna plug her in now and play some CS GO.


Plug her, huh?


----------



## fLaPzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jaffa2843*
> 
> Plug her, huh?










lol


----------



## FoxWolf1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ickz*
> 
> If mine has uneven buttons, the first thing I'm doing is opening it up. Hopefully its fixable


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *loki993*
> 
> same here and if that doesnt work Ill just swap the board into a WMO I have with the crappy sensor.


Likewise.

Although, the clips on my (disassembled) WMO's shell are broken, so I don't think that it's usable...if my Aurora comes with the fault and can't be fixed, I'll just have to buy something else instead.


----------



## acid_reptile

yeehaa after 3 years waiting the time has come.

Mouse arrives, plugging in aaand broken..


----------



## CorruptBE

Couldn't be arsed to wait, especially due to the price...

Ordered one on Amazon as well.


----------



## loki993

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FoxWolf1*
> 
> Likewise.
> 
> Although, the clips on my (disassembled) WMO's shell are broken, so I don't think that it's usable...if my Aurora comes with the fault and can't be fixed, I'll just have to buy something else instead.


I broke the clips on my WMO as well and actually superglued them back on....worked great...actually better than I expected.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Couldn't be arsed to wait, especially due to the price...
> 
> Ordered one on Amazon as well.


Amazon US or DE?
Can't find it on Amazon US :c


----------



## CorruptBE

co.uk, kept seeing ads for it everywhere. Suffice it to say it's the first time ever an internet ad has actually freaking worked on me lol.


----------



## loki993

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Amazon US or DE?
> Can't find it on Amazon US :c


Because its not on there...only amazon UK as far as I know.


----------



## parappa da sneak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fLaPzZ*
> 
> Just got mine and the L + R mouse button gaps are pretty much perfect. The clicks feel identical. I love the lightness.
> 
> I'm just gonna plug her in now and play some CS GO.


Is it really identical? Left mouse isn't stiff and hard to press or anything? If so, I feel a lot better about the mouse and that phew, my mouse is only defective and needs to be returned.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *parappa da sneak*
> 
> Is it really identical? Left mouse isn't stiff and hard to press or anything? If so, I feel a lot better about the mouse and that phew, my mouse is only defective and needs to be returned.


I doubt it. Most of them seem defective as this is a common problem that many people are reporting.


----------



## vtchill

I am having similar rocket jumping problems as poros1ty in Quake live and I use mouse2 for jump as well. From my playing last night I failed the exact same rocket jumps shown in his videos at least 70% of the time. I'm not ready to say the mouse is defective yet, I will definitely be testing it further.

It is very odd because independently both buttons feel fine. I am able to strafe jump around levels with ease and obviously firing with mouse1 feels great as well. I am thinking there is some slight difference with the timing of the buttons when compared with the WMO i was using. Looking at the buttons I can tell a very very slight difference in height, which is also present on my mx300. I will do the rocket jump tests with the mx300 as well and see if I have the same struggles.

Barring the rocket jumping issue the mouse feels and functions great in all other respects. I still love my mx300 and the aurora is basically a better version of it...so kudos to bst for a very nice mouse.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vtchill*
> 
> I still love my mx300 and the aurora is basically a better version of it...so kudos to bst for a very nice mouse.


That is why BST stuck to this type of shape because most older users still have the mx300 in their possession. Damn fine shape and it works with next to no unnecessary disco lights or enormous amount of useless buttons.

Just stick with the basics because LESS is always MORE when it comes to input devices







.


----------



## Maximillion

What you used to love now you're gonna adore.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vtchill*
> 
> I am having similar rocket jumping problems as poros1ty in Quake live and I use mouse2 for jump as well. From my playing last night I failed the exact same rocket jumps shown in his videos at least 70% of the time. I'm not ready to say the mouse is defective yet, I will definitely be testing it further.
> 
> It is very odd because independently both buttons feel fine. I am able to strafe jump around levels with ease and obviously firing with mouse1 feels great as well. I am thinking there is some slight difference with the timing of the buttons when compared with the WMO i was using. Looking at the buttons I can tell a very very slight difference in height, which is also present on my mx300. I will do the rocket jump tests with the mx300 as well and see if I have the same struggles.
> 
> Barring the rocket jumping issue the mouse feels and functions great in all other respects. I still love my mx300 and the aurora is basically a better version of it...so kudos to bst for a very nice mouse.


I figured out how to rocket jump somewhat reliably with the mouse now, but it's really awkward and really can only be done intentionally and not by playing naturally. Let me know if you have any luck in duplicating my results.

http://esreality.com/post/2694595/n-a/#pid2694595


----------



## Mych

Hm, so many if not most mice have main buttons with different feels, plus fingers are not equal in strength. Not to say there can't be a problem, someone should check the insides, plungers and switches specifically.


----------



## fLaPzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *parappa da sneak*
> 
> Is it really identical? Left mouse isn't stiff and hard to press or anything? If so, I feel a lot better about the mouse and that phew, my mouse is only defective and needs to be returned.


Yes, the buttons feel and look identical to me. There's certainly no gap difference when looked at from the front view. I can't find any fault with it.

The lightness is brilliant. At first it almost feels like there's no mouse in your hand. The coating suits me well with my dry hands.

Played CS GO (400dpi and 2.1 in game, 6th Win) for an hour or so last night and the sensor felt very responsive, although I'm no expert on smoothing.

LOD was a tiny bit too high (and I mean a _really_ tiny bit), but because of the lightness, I got used to pretty quickly.


----------



## SoFGR

anybody tried the 400dpi step yet ? My 500hz intellimouse optical 1.1 feels so damn accurate in payday games where you can't use a 45cm/360 sens with a 800dpi mouse ( 0% zoom sens 6% regular sens atm lol )

I'm well aware that 800 dpi is the avago 3090's native res but a 400dpi step is really needed so that my muscle memory does not get screwed much when switching between different FPSs


----------



## fLaPzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SoFGR*
> 
> anybody tried the 400dpi step yet ? My 500hz intellimouse optical 1.1 feels so damn accurate in payday games where you can't use a 45cm/360 sens with a 800dpi mouse ( 0% zoom sens 6% regular sens atm lol )
> 
> I'm well aware that 800 dpi is the avago 3090's native res but a 400dpi step is really needed so that my muscle memory does not get screwed much when switching between different FPSs


I've been using 400 dpi. Seems good to me.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mych*
> 
> Hm, so many if not most mice have main buttons with different feels, plus fingers are not equal in strength. Not to say there can't be a problem, someone should check the insides, plungers and switches specifically.


I wish i had problems like that..

The most people can at least test the mouse, "rocket jump" issues or not. I'm lost with my broken unit, waiting for an answer to my support ticket. I don't even know where to send it back. It came with amazon, although i preordered on the ninox page.


----------



## TheGMT

In the same position. It's been 5/6 days since I submitted a ticket. I'm not feeling hopeful.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGMT*
> 
> In the same position. It's been 5/6 days since I submitted a ticket. I'm not feeling hopeful.


No you are not. You have at least one working aurora ;P


----------



## vtchill

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> I figured out how to rocket jump somewhat reliably with the mouse now, but it's really awkward and really can only be done intentionally and not by playing naturally. Let me know if you have any luck in duplicating my results.
> 
> http://esreality.com/post/2694595/n-a/#pid2694595


I tried option 1 last night and it got me up to about 50% success rate on the rocket jumps. So it was an improvement but still not great. I also tried with my wmo and never missed the jump in 30+ attempts. I have noticed in general my rockets jumps aren't as crisp yet either which makes me think maybe i just need to get more used to the new mouse. As comparison with the wmo i can make every rocket jump with the exact amount of height needed, no wasted air time, but with the aurora the height is way more inconsistent for the intermediary rocket jumps


----------



## TheGMT

Aha, I guess so. Although I don't use it. I meant exclusively in terms of the support ticket nonsense, sorry for the misunderstanding :/


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vtchill*
> 
> I tried option 1 last night and it got me up to about 50% success rate on the rocket jumps. So it was an improvement but still not great. I also tried with my wmo and never missed the jump in 30+ attempts. I have noticed in general my rockets jumps aren't as crisp yet either which makes me think maybe i just need to get more used to the new mouse. As comparison with the wmo i can make every rocket jump with the exact amount of height needed, no wasted air time, but with the aurora the height is way more inconsistent for the intermediary rocket jumps


it's just a defect. You'll never be able to 100% RJ with this mouse naturally as you should be able to. No mouse would be intentionally made this way.


----------



## CorruptBE

Blegh...

Amazon just changed the delivery date to the 29th :x


----------



## Xanatos

I have a unanswered support ticket as well since last weekend.


----------



## iBzzz

I've chosen to return mine for a refund on Amazon. Disappointed as there seems to be too many people suffering the buttons issue and it's just too annoying to ignore as I literally find myself failing to click it's that bad.

Really like the mouse so if they acknowledge the fault / fix the issue I'll likely re-order.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xanatos*
> 
> I have a unanswered support ticket as well since last weekend.


Don't worry. Mine is opened without response since 27th November lol


----------



## bovi77

this sounds like Razer when they re-launched as a brand. Viper and diamondback were horrible mice but Razer was very communicative with their customers & gamers and people gave them time to fix issues. However gaming peripherals were much more niche back then and gamers atm are more discerning.

I hope BST / Ninox will really put effort into their after sales so that they will be able to release new & better products. The shape of the Aurora looks a dream, wish I didn't miss that massdrop offer.

And that right click height looks significantly different to the left, I think that is not acceptable even on a $5 mouse. My Avior 7000 has a similar issue but you can only feel the difference instead of see it - totally unacceptable to me.


----------



## pran

My mouse should arrive today, hopefully I won't run into the same problems as most of you here.


----------



## wmoftw

I guess I'm waiting for a version 2. I am pretty happy I didn't pre-order.

Just sad...


----------



## pran

So I also have different mouse buttons. Can't exactly say how it feels yet, since I've only played for 10 minutes, but it wasn't too bad so far.
I ran into some problems after changing some settings in the driver where suddenly every button decided to switch functions (left click was suddenly mwheel down, mouse5 was right click etc). After resetting the problems where gone though.

This mouse is extremely light. As you can see from my size comparisation, I've used mostly heavy mice so far and there's a really big difference. The cable doesn't feel as bad as I thought it would be after hearing all the negative reviews and the sensor feels really good in CS:GO. Gonna keep testing that mouse for a while, though I don't feel like it will become my main mouse.


----------



## a_ak57

My mouse buttons are about as offset as yours pran, they don't really bother me but I'm also not M1/M2 rocket jumping like others so I guess it wouldn't really be an issue. Cable isn't awful, but it's not even close to being zowie-like like it was billed. It's best described as "meh" I think.


----------



## CookieBook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pran*


I just love how worn your intelli is


----------



## RentoN

Did anyone who ordered from Massdrop already get their Aurora?


----------



## a_ak57

Yeah, I got my massdrop aurora on Monday (I'm in the US).


----------



## Gigantoad

Just received mine from Massdrop in Switzerland suprisingly. That was a lot faster than expected when shipped from USA. Anyway, the left mouse click is indeed harder to press so I opened it first thing before even connecting it. Seems pretty obvious what the culprit is.



That looks pretty abnormal, almost burned. Doubt that's how it was designed by bst.


----------



## pran

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CookieBook*
> 
> I just love how worn your intelli is


You should have seen the two i used before and decided to throw away


----------



## Gigantoad

On second thought, it may only be part of the problem. There simply seems to be more tension on the right mouse button in the shell. It does all look a bit like sloppy manufacturing in general. If that could have been prevented by making the mouse cost 10 bucks more I think that would have been worth it.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> That looks pretty abnormal, almost burned. Doubt that's how it was designed by bst.


oh sheet, that looks as if something in the factory went wrong.
poor BST.


----------



## poros1ty

Already contacted massdrop about returning this mouse.

[email protected]


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> Already contacted massdrop about returning this mouse.
> 
> [email protected]


Meh. I'll see if I can't fix it myself first. Cut the guy some slack. But yeah the build quality of the shell is really horrible. Putting the Aurora next to my KPM is like comparing a cheap Toyota to a top tier Mercedes. If you saw the Aurora in a shop you'd assume it's some office mouse and I doubt you'd pay more than $20 for it. Not that I care personally as I like understatement. If it didn't have that button issue and would perform flawlessly despite the cheap looks, I'd probably love it.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Meh. I'll see if I can't fix it myself first. Cut the guy some slack. But yeah the build quality of the shell is really horrible. Putting the Aurora next to my KPM is like comparing a cheap Toyota to a top tier Mercedes. If you saw the Aurora in a shop you'd assume it's some office mouse and I doubt you'd pay more than $20 for it. Not that I care personally as I like understatement. If it didn't have that button issue and would perform flawlessly despite the cheap looks, I'd probably love it.


I'm not sympathetic when you try to sell a shoddy product and then try to pass it off as a professional gaming mouse. It is clearly defective yet on my mouse it is stamped saying it passed QC when there was clearly none to minimal QC. No problem, but let me return it. I don't see how that is unreasonable. Anyways, I hope bst recovers from this and fixes it in the next batch if he can afford to do it.


----------



## chrispow

I received my pre-ordered mouse today and I can't find an issue with the M1/M2 at all. I'll keep looking out for it, but they feel to need the same amount of pressure to actuate. First impression: Love everything but the cord. It's stiff but hopefully will feel better after breaking it in.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> I'm not sympathetic when you try to sell a shoddy product and then try to pass it off as a professional gaming mouse. It is clearly defective yet on my mouse it is stamped saying it passed QC when there was clearly none to minimal QC. No problem, but let me return it. I don't see how that is unreasonable. Anyways, I hope bst recovers from this and fixes it in the next batch if he can afford to do it.


It's funny how people complain about mice being too expensive and then complain when their cheap mice have QC issues.

Anyone who knows anything about production knows that the first batch is by far the most likely to have QC issues.


----------



## FoxWolf1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> It's funny how people complain about mice being too expensive and then complain when their cheap mice have QC issues.
> 
> Anyone who knows anything about production knows that the first batch is by far the most likely to have QC issues.


This isn't a cheap mouse, though, especially for people who preordered rather than buying via Massdrop.

And, first batch or not, it's still not acceptable to take someone's money and then deliver a malformed product. Just because it happens doesn't mean it's okay, and the people who spent their money are well within their rights to complain.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for mine...at this point, I actually hope there are more delays, so that I don't have to deal with the headaches of having it arrive while I'm traveling over the holidays.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> On second thought, it may only be part of the problem. There simply seems to be more tension on the right mouse button in the shell. It does all look a bit like sloppy manufacturing in general. If that could have been prevented by making the mouse cost 10 bucks more I think that would have been worth it.


I'd gladly pay 10 bucks more if quality is more on par or consistent for a product.

Quality > Quantity imo


----------



## karod

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pran*


Ha, seeing the Aurora next to a Deathadder, the Aurora is so tiny. It is even smaller than the Zowie on the right. I currently use DA and consider it mid-size/normal-size. The Mionix on the left in the picture is considered by me a large mouse.


----------



## Gigantoad

After some testing, if Satan made a cable then it would be the one on the Aurora. This cable paired with the light weight of the mouse is the stuff of horrors. Needs very careful setup to not drag but it's doable. The scroll wheel is absolutely unworthy for a gaming mouse too. It's so "unnotchy", like the worst office mouse. But anyway, I fixed the click.



You can remove those button "strips" from the shell. Then you can just bend them along that ridge or all across. Not too much obviously or you may break it.



Just experiment a bit until you have the feel you want. It took me about 4 times to get it just right. The third time I had bent it too much so then it was pressing the switch down on its own. So I bent it back a little and now it's great. Left click is just a whee bit lighter than right now, but both feel very similiar and great.

When removing the buttons you may break lips that attach them to the shell. Try not to break them. But if you do, don't worry the mouse is still perfectly usable. When I first removed the right mouse button, which seemed to come off easier so I decided to try on that one first, I accidently broke both of the lips off.



The big one in the front seems to prevent the button from having a bit of sideways play. So my right button now has that but it's a minor issue that I don't mind enough to try and fix it. The smaller back one seems irrelevant so break it all you want.

That concludes fixing an Aurora. Use at your own risk obviously.


----------



## Quailane

I was eagerly awaiting reviews of this mouse, and now I'm really glad I just went with a G502 instead.

The story of this mouse happens all the time here in China. Some western guy, small business, or whatever has some great idea for some product. They shop around for someone to help them turn their product into reality. They find that, surprise surprise, some Chinese company is claiming they can do the same job for half the price of the net lowest offer. So this person who wants to make the product gets super excited and begins working with the Chinese company. The Chinese company then gives them the runaround, saying that after looking further into it, designing this new product from scratch would take a lot more time and money than previously estimated, but luckily they have plenty of existing no-name products they could modify to suit the buyer. At this point one should just run away, but they never do. So maybe the product won't be exactly like the one envisioned, but it will be good enough, and most importantly it will still be cheap. They didn't believe they could actually make the product without having to compromise on anything, did they? So things continue, the Chinese hardware and software engineers work on the project, but results are slow and it is a long drawn-out hassle trying to get the product up to the buyer's requirements. If the engineers were at the top of their trade, they would probably either be working for a large company who develops things in-house or would have a work visa in some other country, not working for some random company that by western standards is borderline running a scam. Eventually the buyer is satisfied after a prototype finally just barely meets their minimum requirements, or in some cases the buyer lowers their minimum requirements just to get on with it, and they order a production run. A container arrives at the port of Los Angeles, Hamburg, Antwerp, or wherever, and buyer is super happy that the ordeal is over with and they can finally see some positive cash flow. Well, they test a couple of the production units themselves and have serious doubts as to the quality of the product. However, they convince themselves that they just randomly chose the worst samples of their product from the shipment that just arrived. It helps calm their nerves that the Chinese company promises that they didn't see any quality problems with any of the units they themselves tested. In the mind of the person or business who is trying to sell the product, it doesn't matter anyway, because they are being too critical of themselves and they are sure that the product is so good that consumers will overlook any flaws. The product gets in the hands of consumers, who are not satisfied with the quality. Many units are defective and get returned. The dreams of the business who sells this product are crushed, and they focus on minimizing losses and doing whatever they can to get by.

I'm not saying that this was the exact storyline that has followed this mouse, but it is close to it and it happens every day. It has happened to new ideas for something as simple as toothpicks all the way to multi-billion dollar mega projects. In some cases where the product's idea is very good or quality is quite high, the original business will realize that the Chinese business they contracted with has been selling the product under the table or that a Chinese competitor magically releases the same product before they themselves are even able to. I just want to reiterate one more time: THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.


----------



## Gigantoad

Could totally picture this. So how does one go about it? Not choose the cheapest production? Avoid China altogether?

I'm glad to say that with my fixed mouse now working as supposed, it's actually a lot of fun. The low weight and the now very direct button clicks make it really effortless and precise somehow. The toyish feel seems to add to the playfulness rather than detriment the experience. I haven't yet switched back to my KPM which I thought was going to be my dream mouse for a long time, so that's saying something. At this point I'd say don't disregard it because of the negative aspects that pop up in first impressions. Give it a chance. It may be a bit of a raw diamond. In hindsight, not that much was wrong with the button. It just needed a little bending.

I can't completely ignore price either. This thing has cost me nearly half of my KPM, at least through Massdrop. Although I don't care much about mouse prices personally (I'll never understand why people are not willing to spend considerably more on a device they use every day to interface with the computer), it's still worth mentioning how affordable it is. And it's easy to forget this was one guy who went through god knows what and persevered in the end.


----------



## woll3

Anyone here who wants to take a picture of the PCB?


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Anyone here who wants to take a picture of the PCB?


I have actually.


----------



## toopz

I got my mouse today from Massdrop.
M1 takes slightly high pressure than M2 but its not a problem for me.
Cable was annoying so I changed it to DA 3g one.

Sensor is the best feature, it has completely raw feeling in game. I wish there was prediction on and off function but it doesn't bother me that much.
Scroll wheel should have slightly more define clicks but its personal preference.
I kind rest my thumb on Mouse4 which I will get used to it.

I must give props for 1st attempt from Bst. Great mouse 8/10.
Hopefully in future version {3310} he will solve problem with cable and additional weight.


----------



## poros1ty

Another picture of the mouse buttons.


----------



## vtchill

Seems like quite a tough crowd. No mouse is perfect. A lot of what makes someone love a mouse is subjective.

I think some are being quite harsh on an overall great product. Not to mention this mouse satisfies a market that was a barren wasteland for 10yrs since the mx300/310 was all the rage.

The sensor feels absolutely fantastic and the shell to me is awesome. The cable IMO is totally blown out of proportion. I straighten it out on a table and put some heavy books on top of it for a day to work the kinks out from packaging. Then i gave the cord a slight bend right where it meets the mouse and voila no more rubbing on my mouse pad. Haven't had a problem since.

Obviously mouse wheel will be very subjective but I quite like it. For games I don't need precision on the mouse wheel i just need up or down to do 1 or 2 things so it doesn't bother me that it isn't extremely "notchy". Again this is subjective.

For m1/m2 rocket jumping I am getting used to the mouse. I still fail jumps for sure but my failure rate is going down. I think over time it'll lower even more.

To me this mouse is pretty incredible at the $37/usd i payed for it. People routinely pay 70-100+ for mice on here and have just as many complaints about them. It is definitely a solid upgrade over the wmo i have been using.


----------



## pran

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vtchill*
> 
> It is definitely a solid upgrade over the wmo i have been using.


What makes it better than the WMO in your opinion? I don't think I could ever switch from my IME 3.0 to the Aurora.


----------



## Xanatos

Anyone in NA received their *preorder* yet? Or refund?


----------



## Mych

Actually received Aurora today, one and a half week earlier than estimated (preorder EU).

The main buttons are even and work fine, although they don't feel as good as G302's, which isn't much of a surprise. The cord is not as terrible as would have expected on the basis of some comments, but obviously not ideal either. Personally would describe it as being in the same ballpark as G302's and IMO 1.1's. The wheel is mediocre at best but does its job, might not work for someone who relies on the wheel/middle button in game. Shape is naturally great, although mine has a sort of sharp edge on the right side where upper and lower shell meet. More evidence that the factory has let bst down, I guess. I'll probably just sand it smooth.

Will have to play more to see whether Aurora can replace G302, but the better clicks of the latter will probably prevail. For now Aurora's buttons work fine and tracking seems pretty good (although not convinced it has stable 1000 hz).


----------



## vtchill

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pran*
> 
> What makes it better than the WMO in your opinion? I don't think I could ever switch from my IME 3.0 to the Aurora.


These are subjective of course but here is how i see it:

The sensor is every bit as good as my WMO if not better.
DPI options are great.
Easier to configure polling rates and options.
I like shape better
The shell has more texture than my WMO so easier to hold.

Its basically an upgrade to this century from an mx300 or wmo to me at least.


----------



## ramraze

It's not that the factory let him down. This is how it is when you let some random factory produce as cheap as possible. This is called no QC. Inevitable.


----------



## Quailane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Could totally picture this. So how does one go about it? Not choose the cheapest production? Avoid China altogether?


With China's labor costs, a lot of infrastructure already in place, and the government doing all it can to support exports, avoiding China altogether is almost impossible if you want it to be competitively priced. There are many examples of both things going right and things going wrong with having the work done in China. Some people seem to think that the Chinese can perform magic or miracles. I assure you that they cannot, no matter how low one gets quoted for some project or how many promises are made. Things can get done, done well, on time, with lower cost, but it takes a lot of effort and the final cost difference is often not as great as originally assumed. For a positive example look at Apple. Engineering is all done in-house. They source components from many different companies. They work very closely between California and Foxconn and keep a close eye on manufacture. For a negative example look at California's San Francisco-Oakland bridge eastern span replacement project. For the steelwork, the state went with the lowest bidder, a random steel company in China that made many promises that were too good to be true. In the end, the finished bridge is likely not nearly as safe and earthquake resistant as originally planned, the state ended up paying more money on constructing it, and the bridge will require much more heavy maintenance than originally planned over the course of its estimated 150 year lifespan. Of course, after a major coverup, these issues only came to light after the bridge was completed and opened. This was a $7 billion bridge that they had hoped to cut corners to save $250 million on.

This mouse project was originally announced in October 2011, took over three years before a product was in the hands of a consumer, and the overall quality seems to be mediocre. Nothing they were doing was groundbreaking, the components are all off the shelf, and very little had to be done from scratch. For this company, bst was likely very low priority. Being in a far away country did not help either with having to send bst samples and likely playing "telephone tag."

If I were to want to make my own mouse, I would not go the route of finding a low bidder peripheral manufacturer to make my mouse dreams come true. If I had the big bucks I could do something like what Dell did with their TactX mouse, which was just a tailor made Logitech G9X. But being the poor and cheap bastard that I am, I would not and could not go that route. I would first find my own people who are close by who can develop the mouse internals, program mouse control software, and come up with a PCB designed to fit my shell of choosing. Having this person, group of people, or company that I can work with face to face would ensure that the job gets done well and quickly. This is the most important part, and it is not worth it playing cat and mouse with a company in a far away land for years just to save some money. In this step, quality is extremely important, and the faster it gets done, the faster the product can be manufactured, get certified, and be sold to consumers.

Beyond that, I am not sure whether I would find another company who can do all the manufacturing and hand me a finished product, or if I would source components from different manufacturers and assemble the mouse "in-house." I personally have a huge advantage in being that I live in China and speak Chinese. Since this product would be aimed entirely at the export market, it would be simple to start my own company, rent a business space, and have my own people assemble and box the mice using parts I sourced from different manufacturers. I could also personally travel to the different component manufacturers to make sure everything is going on fine and if there were any problems, I could tell any of them to shape up or to go screw themselves while I find another factory. This would also make the risk, albeit it low, of a clone or copycat product negligible. If I was going to make the mouse in very low numbers or if I didn't live in China, I would probably just have to find a single mouse manufacturer and tell them exactly how to build my mouse to my personal specs.


----------



## Gigantoad

Well that sounds as if you should contact bst about his next mouse. If he's still in business then.


----------



## paers

Got mine yesterday. I don't entirely agree with the "raw a3090 feeling". It's a good a3090 implementation alright, but it's still an a3090. It does make up for it with the light weight and general maneuverability though.

I don't mind the button height discrepancies, zero impact on my game so far. I could definitely see it becoming an issue for some, though. Cord's starting to behave itself as well. However, the 1000 hz option in the software doesn't work, is this a known issue? It neither applies it when the software is still running nor saves it onboard. I was hoping I wouldn't have to reinstall HIDUSBF.

Even with its current QC issues I'd say this is the best you can get in its price range right now.


----------



## Johan450

I got mine today as well, button hight is around the same, right click is a bit tougher than the left. Feels a bit like the shell is blocking on the way down.
Cable is crap, but it works well enough with a bungee/ mouse rock.
I like the mouse for sc2, but not so much for dota. Right click the only keeping me away from liking this mouse.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paers*
> 
> However, the 1000 hz option in the software doesn't work, is this a known issue? It neither applies it when the software is still running nor saves it onboard. I was hoping I wouldn't have to reinstall HIDUSBF.


Hmm nope, seems to work fine here. Set to 1000 Hz and works reliably according to Mouse Movement Recorder.


----------



## pran

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Hmm nope, seems to work fine here. Set to 1000 Hz and works reliably according to Mouse Movement Recorder.


You get a consistent 1000hz? I only get around 910hz.


----------



## tramas

Hi guys, do you would buy the aurora right now with the 3090 version or you will wait for the "supposedly" 3310 version? Idk what to do ;(


----------



## a_ak57

I would not recommend waiting for a new BST product. Could be years again given that he wants to do custom shapes.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pran*
> 
> You get a consistent 1000hz? I only get around 910hz.


I'm not sure how to check for consistency. In Mouse Movement Recorder it's all over the place depending on how fast I move the mouse. Goes up well over 1000 Hz too. Do you mean the maximum value?


----------



## AnimalK

I love this mouse.

The surface texture is great. The shape is great. The sensor performance as far as I can tell is very good. The low weight makes a huge difference. I can target something much quicker csgo.

The mouse feet felt a little rough at first but after a couple hours of usage it was silky smooth. The clicks are very responsive and fast. The scroll wheel click feels great.

The cable has caused me 0 issues so far.

Yes my right click is higher than my left click but when I play it doesn't affect anything. Yes my scroll wheel wobbles a little when swiping left and right.
The scroll wheel scrolling feels and sounds almost identical to my FK1.

I am very thankful that someone like bst went through all the trouble to make this excellent effort at a gaming mouse. It performs very very well in all areas.
It has earned its place among my FK1 and g302 currently and I am having trouble going back to either mostly because of the weight and responsiveness.

I am really happy that this mouse exists and that I have one.
Yes there is room for improvement but the core/heart/intentions are better than any other mouse I've ever tried before.
I believe we need to encourage bst positively with our critiques if we want to help him deliver on what we all want.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tramas*
> 
> Hi guys, do you would buy the aurora right now with the 3090 version or you will wait for the "supposedly" 3310 version? Idk what to do ;(


unless 70g is an absolute must for you i dont see why you would buy the 3090 version (besides just plain supporting the project)

i can't go back to any 3090 mouse now after using my G302 and other newer releases with the better sensors, they just feel so much better than the 3090 mice, bst mouse isnt gonna change that.


----------



## Ickz

Has anyone from the US that preordered got any sort of email confirmation or any sort of update at all? On Ninox, my order still says processing.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ickz*
> 
> Has anyone from the US that preordered got any sort of email confirmation or any sort of update at all? On Ninox, my order still says processing.


Same here, according to my pre-ordered rodent it's still being 'processed'







.


----------



## Nilizum

Processing4Lyfe.


----------



## tramas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I would not recommend waiting for a new BST product. Could be years again given that he wants to do custom shapes.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> unless 70g is an absolute must for you i dont see why you would buy the 3090 version (besides just plain supporting the project)
> 
> i can't go back to any 3090 mouse now after using my G302 and other newer releases with the better sensors, they just feel so much better than the 3090 mice, bst mouse isnt gonna change that.


I'm a WMO and a G100s (without the weight) user so yes 70g is a must for me but my problem is PCS because i have low-mid sensitivity and i tend to malfunction both of them.

I'm asking this because i read that. He says that he has designed a new shell for the 3310 sens but also the aurora will be upgraded. So, does it really worth the wait for the 3310 upgrade? for your comment i'm asuming that the 3310>>>3090? is the 3310 much better than the 3090?

Cheers.


----------



## MechanimaL

off topic: for me the 3090 felt the most direct of all sensors so far. the only one I have not tested is the one in the g502.. but that opinion is not based on any data, so ..







some of the 3090 mice have too high of a LOD.. and some seem to have badly implemented, so that they dont work on this or that or have smoothing, but that s not what i recognised on the most of them.

when will the mouse be available in europe via european shops?


----------



## Xanatos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Ickz*
> 
> Has anyone from the US that preordered got any sort of email confirmation or any sort of update at all? On Ninox, my order still says processing.
> 
> 
> 
> Same here, according to my pre-ordered rodent it's still being 'processed'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

same. Been following and offered input since the start. I don't know what his problem is. This whole experience has soured me on preordering anything.


----------



## CorruptBE

Just received mine, earlier then expected.

My initial findings are better then I expected (considering what I read in this thread). So far...

*Positive:*

My buttons are fairly equal ( at least at a first glance with the naked eye)
Feels more responsive on the desktop then any other 3090/3310 implementation I've ever tried
Accuracy on the desktop (making circles, trying to select a single pixel, etc) feels similar to a 3310 (3310 might be a tad better)
Malfunction speed at 800 dpi (I need at least 600 dpi for my personal needs) is great (see picture below)
The texture is sweet, feels very grippy
*Negative:*

Whilst never a dealbreaker for me I agree with most: OMG THAT CABLE SERIOUSLY!!!
Scrollwheel notches could be more pronounced, clicking mousewheel is OK imo
*Enotus:*



I actually hurt myself a bit during this enotus test. Reached 4+ m/s easily as usually, pressed on to 5.19 m/s and then I swiped really hard and hurt my shoulder due to pushing my arm to hard in an awkward position









Now it's time for some ingame testing...


----------



## nyshak

Nice to see the Aurora works for some.

In case you have not used the software - a note of caution. Some ESR users reported that the software broke the mouse (0,6m max track speed etc.) So if you have no need to change anything I'd advise to stay away from it until bst has a look at this.

Some used the software without problems, but maybe its a special action. From what I read it might be the "reset all profiles" thing the software can do.


----------



## CorruptBE

I tried it and it worked. 1000 Hz, 800 dpi and still doing 5+ m/s. Perhaps their mouse is just broken in some way and writing to the mouse from the software basically "bricks" it?

So far I just tested BF4 (I'm way more casual these days then I was 2 years ago), got 26% accuracy with the AEK w heavy barrel playing yolo, aggressive, totally not giving a damn about accuracy and I was playing Mass Effect for 1,5 weeks...









(it was on sale so I'm doing a Mass Effect marathon)

If I don't find any dealbreaker in the next month or so, this might just become my main mouse. It's so damn... lightweight. I'm just throwing it around all over the place.


----------



## a_ak57

Yeah, aside from the cable my only real complaint is that the mouse will tilt if I put too much weight on the back of the mouse. I recall seeing that someone put a mouse foot at the back of the mouse and supposedly that fixed it so I'll have to try that. But in any case it seems to track just fine with the software installed, though I'm not as discerning as some here. Also I dig the lack of weight but I'm still assessing the shape, kinda wish it had a wider butt.


----------



## CorruptBE

The tilting is something I had before with some other mouse, you'll get used to it and mildly adjust your grip to it over time. These are just mild quirks you need to adapt to.

400 dpi feels very ... "blocky" dunno, but imo it seems best to use this mouse at 800/1600 dpi at first glance.

Also, it suffers from the same issue of the Avior 7000: could use a reduction in Angle Snapping/Prediction (or a firmware for those who desire it):



All in all, comparing this mouse to the FK1, the FK1 wins in the precision camp and (time will tell if it's not "new mouse placebo") Aurora probably beats it in the responsiveness department.

Someone give BST a bigger budget and 3310 to work with and miracles might just happen (at least for us "niche" people).


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Someone give BST a bigger budget and 3310 to work with and miracles might just happen (at least for us "niche" people).


That has always been the case here, everyone seems to think that BST must beat multi-million dollar corporations when it comes to designing and making a mouse, but how could anyone do that?

Nice to keep complaining about it's standards of quality, buttons and cable but can you actually say all other input devices currently available, have no issues with their pointing gizmo's?

Because this is his first release I hope he continues since he is doing his best to deliver a simple mouse for a tiny percent that need a real gaming mouse. Even though I have yet to receive his devices I am looking forward to buying more updated versions when they're available.


----------



## a_ak57

Well, buttons and overall build quality can be chalked up simple production issues, but the cable is a design thing and it was billed as zowie-like all the way through its life. Either he changed the cable (to save costs I'd imagine) or the manufacturer hosed him (but I haven't seen any comment to that effect).


----------



## CorruptBE

Also having the issue where I can click the mouse4/5 buttons by putting pressure on the side of the mouse. Though not a major issue for me, I don't need these buttons ingame, I've just merely grown accustomed to using them while browsing and in Windows (really, I look like an idiot on a mouse that doesn't have them, I keep tapping my thumb onto nothing trying to go 1 page back in a browser







).

Zowie AM, Roccat Savu, ... They also had this issue so this isn't just a problem BST alone is facing. FK's shell feels tighter, harder, compared to the AM, perhaps that's one of the reasons.

My biggest tip to BST for his next mouse:

"Don't be afraid to charge more and in exchange, beef up some things in the building aspect."

Though this is from the point of view of someone who spent 300 euros on a headphone that lasted him for 10 years (and is still going strong). I don't mind paying more if it means I get a bit more durability, etc in exchange.

If people are looking for probably the best 3090 iteration in a ambi package however, he succeeded imo.

EDIT:

Oh and the "bigger budget" and 3310 remark was meant as a positive feedback: Basically, if he goes in with the same mindset performance wise for the firmware but beefs up the overall build quality of the mouse and has the 3310 (or the future 3320??) to work with, he might just be able to show the bigger companies "how its done". Maybe not in terms of sales, but in terms of having a proper performing mouse.


----------



## povohat

It's back on Massdrop, for anyone who missed it the first time
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ninox-aurora-mouse


----------



## kicksome

How much is it on mass drop? I don't have an account to sign in with


----------



## povohat

$34.99 is the lowest price point


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> It's back on Massdrop, for anyone who missed it the first time
> https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ninox-aurora-mouse


You are kidding right........Haven't even received the FIRST massdrop run, buy in







.

Sorry but for me definitely staying away until they deliver it, nothing worse then spending even more money for something that has never been delivered just yet.


----------



## Nilizum

Most NA people got the first mass drop AFAIK. 0 NA people got pre order.


----------



## kicksome

Any Australians get in on the last mass drop? I Might order if people in aus received theirs last time


----------



## povohat

I already have 2 on pre-order so I didn't join the drop last time.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> I already have 2 on pre-order so I didn't join the drop last time.


Same here, yet to even see them ever turning up here in Convict Town







.


----------



## Elrick

Got a response from the guys at Massdrop, THEY said my package got shipped on the 12th of this month hence it will take about 4 weeks before I can receive it, welcome Jan 2015.

Not denying that shipping anything out of America will take a month to arrive, due to past acquisitions of just about everything.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Got a response from the guys at Massdrop, THEY said my package got shipped on the 12th of this month hence it will take about 4 weeks before I can receive it, welcome Jan 2015.
> 
> Not denying that shipping anything out of America will take a month to arrive, due to past acquisitions of just about everything.


shouldn't take that long, but it is December so expect some sort of delay. How much did it cost you in total? In thinking about getting on board this time around


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> shouldn't take that long, but it is December so expect some sort of delay. How much did it cost you in total? In thinking about getting on board this time around


Subtotal (2 of them) $69.98
Shipping $13.40
*Total $83.38*

That's the complete cost in US dollars.


----------



## acid_reptile

Do zowie cables work with the aurora?


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Do zowie cables work with the aurora?


What's the problem with it? You can change wires on plug in right order and use it in any mouse.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m1hka*
> 
> What's the problem with it? You can change wires on plug in right order and use it in any mouse.


uncommon colors (black,blue,green,orange,red)


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> uncommon colors (black,blue,green,orange,red)


Also interested in this.

But I want to get it right. I fried a Ikari Optical once putting the colors in the wrong order (smoke came out of it, went poof and the mouse was gone).


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> uncommon colors (black,blue,green,orange,red)


Sorry didn't know that AM has this cable though I changed switches on it. But I can bet that blue = black and orange = white.

From the photos I've seen Aurora's cable has the same layout as Zowie mice.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ickz*
> 
> Has anyone from the US that preordered got any sort of email confirmation or any sort of update at all? On Ninox, my order still says processing.


Same, but I'm in EU. And my ticket still has no response after a month. It's becoming really ridiculous...

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9505 mit Tapatalk 2


----------



## mksteez

Is this mice worth getting? Im using the KPM right now because I can;t stand the hard shell/click of the FK1


----------



## M0rb1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Do zowie cables work with the aurora?


Yes they do, the colors and the plug match. You however have to find a way to place the stress relieve.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mksteez*
> 
> Is this mice worth getting? Im using the KPM right now because I can;t stand the hard shell/click of the FK1


If you've got a KPM then why would you want a BST? If it's only to try out then get one, well worth the cost







.


----------



## acid_reptile

Nevermind. I have plenty of good cables. (where i don't even know what mice they are from) Found one which is almost as good as zowie. With the usual colors. Just plugged them in the right order. Maybe someone can report in who actually got the aurora working with the zowie cable, without destroying something.

btw, does the "max controll speed" crash/bug only occur using the "reset settings" button? Would love to change the polling rate, or disable the led pulsing.

As this is already my second aurora, (after the first was broken out of the box) im afrait if installing the software.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> If you've got a KPM then why would you want a BST? If it's only to try out then get one, well worth the cost
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Depends really. His main reason for not using the FK are the buttons. So perhaps he prefers ambi shapes more. In that aspect, it wouldn't hurt to give this one a whirl.


----------



## M0rb1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Nevermind. I have plenty of good cables. (where i don't even know what mice they are from) Found one which is almost as good as zowie. With the usual colors. Just plugged them in the right order. Maybe someone can report in who actually got the aurora working with the zowie cable, without destroying something.
> 
> btw, does the "max controll speed" crash/bug only occur using the "reset settings" button? Would love to change the polling rate, or disable the led pulsing.
> 
> As this is already my second aurora, (after the first was broken out of the box) im afrait if installing the software.


Like I said, it works. The colors of the plug match and so does the plug. I tried it but put back the old cable again because the stress relieve didn't fit properly without modifying the shell.


----------



## acid_reptile

yea i should try to read more carefully. Thanks


----------



## chrispow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> You can remove those button "strips" from the shell. Then you can just bend them along that ridge or all across. Not too much obviously or you may break it.
> 
> Just experiment a bit until you have the feel you want. It took me about 4 times to get it just right. The third time I had bent it too much so then it was pressing the switch down on its own. So I bent it back a little and now it's great. Left click is just a whee bit lighter than right now, but both feel very similiar and great.
> 
> When removing the buttons you may break lips that attach them to the shell. Try not to break them. But if you do, don't worry the mouse is still perfectly usable. When I first removed the right mouse button, which seemed to come off easier so I decided to try on that one first, I accidently broke both of the lips off.
> 
> The big one in the front seems to prevent the button from having a bit of sideways play. So my right button now has that but it's a minor issue that I don't mind enough to try and fix it. The smaller back one seems irrelevant so break it all you want.
> 
> That concludes fixing an Aurora. Use at your own risk obviously.


I also have this problem where M1 takes slightly too much pressure to activate. Did your fix make it feel as fantastic as M2 does? I intend to do this also, but wondering if bending is enough or if I have to do something about the uneven plastic where M1 is. Thanks for your advice.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrispow*
> 
> I also have this problem where M1 takes slightly too much pressure to activate. Did your fix make it feel as fantastic as M2 does? I intend to do this also, but wondering if bending is enough or if I have to do something about the uneven plastic where M1 is. Thanks for your advice.


It did. The button tension was all that was wrong with it. It's still working great, although I think I can feel the click getting a bit harder again over time, just a tiny bit. I imagine I might do some bending again at some point. Might be just my imagination though.


----------



## Creizai

Just wanted to double check my order
Order placed on 30 October 2014


----------



## Ickz

inb4 the next order on massdrop that ends in 7 days reaches people before us peasants that pre-ordered the day they became available.

This is a joke. 0 communication from bst.


----------



## kicksome

well i just bit the bullet and jumped on board with the mass drop
only turned out to be under $42 so thats fine by me

going by the look, mm yeahh dont think i will love it, but something inside of me was just telling me i had to get this just to try it
could be interesting


----------



## hahahoha

quick question to those who own the aurora and zowie fk. which one is narrower in the middle of the mouse? read the specification of both but they only tell the width of the widest part. im specifically concerned about the middle thats where ill claw.


----------



## CorruptBE

Pretty much the same, give or take. Kinda feels like holding an FK without a "butt".


----------



## a_ak57

Aurora is a little bit wider at the top but a little thinner at the bottom (basically, more pronounced V shape). Maybe like 2mm difference for each measurement. Thought they basically feel the same where you'd actually be gripping i.e. the middle.


----------



## kicksome

hoping i dont get one with uneven mouse buttons, fingers crossed
actually im hoping i actually get the mouse first haha


----------



## paers

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mksteez*
> 
> Is this mice worth getting? Im using the KPM right now because I can;t stand the hard shell/click of the FK1


I actually wish I'd bought a KPM instead.


----------



## mksteez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> If you've got a KPM then why would you want a BST? If it's only to try out then get one, well worth the cost
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I prefer ambi shapes now after using the FK1. Played with deathadder for years.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Depends really. His main reason for not using the FK are the buttons. So perhaps he prefers ambi shapes more. In that aspect, it wouldn't hurt to give this one a whirl.


Yes, I prefer ambi shapes and was wondering if this mice lived up to the hype. Im liking the KPM right and can't stand the FK1 buttons.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mksteez*
> 
> I prefer ambi shapes now after using the FK1. Played with deathadder for years.
> Yes, I prefer ambi shapes and was wondering *if this mice lived up to the hype*. Im liking the KPM right and can't stand the FK1 buttons.


Doesn't live up to the hype imo, but that's actually a hype the community created, not BST.

If you value performance over some minor issues its a good mouse though, alot better then some other options out there.


----------



## kicksome

I think there is only one spot left on Mass drop, get in quick if you want it cheap


----------



## povohat

It's now available on Amazon US
http://www.amazon.com/Ninox-Aurora-Professional-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00QLJ57K2/


----------



## Ickz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> It's now available on Amazon US
> http://www.amazon.com/Ninox-Aurora-Professional-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00QLJ57K2/


Well hopefully that means those of us that pre-ordered might actually get ours. Order #41 from first day and still says processing on Ninox...


----------



## povohat

I feel ya man, I'm #15 here with nothing to show for it


----------



## Ino.

I was in the first massdrop and mine hasn't arrived yet either. Did the others who ordered via massdrop get tracking codes?


----------



## Johan450

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I was in the first massdrop and mine hasn't arrived yet either. Did the others who ordered via massdrop get tracking codes?


Nope. Mine arrived though, did you get a email notifying that its been shipped?


----------



## bst

Hi all, I just want to say a few things quickly, to try and put peoples mind at ease:

1- Deliveries:
USA- They should be going out on monday via Amazon
Rest of world- They have been sent on friday, but I was given no tracking numbers. They should be arriving soon though, they were on a 5 day service, but may be slightly delayed due to it being the holiday period.

2- Buttons:
If you hate the buttons then you are welcome to send the mouse back for a refund or replacement, I did know about this issue but it wasn't widespread and was within the AQL of the factory, which is very good. So in a sample size there were very few, but I've sold nearly all the stock so its inevitable that people end up with them









3- Cord:
I'll see if I can get a much more flexible cord replacement and put it on Amazon at a very cheap price, the cord did get slightly stiffer after it went for CE/FCC certification, but after sending it out and asking about the cord, no one had a problem with it, and I wasn't having any trouble with it either. So given it was there for a legal reason, I decided not to mess with it. I really didn't expect anyone to hate it, maybe not say its the best cord ever, but not hate







but like I say I will try and do something about it.

4- Support:
I'm really sorry but I have a backlog of support tickets, mostly from people wondering where their mouse is







But I will be working through them soon and I'm going to be very nice... sorry I'm talking in such a silly way, I'm just running out of time (being moaned at to go somewhere).

5- Refunds:
At the moment I am having trouble issuing refunds to people whose orders are over 60 days old, because paypal limited my account due to the large amount of orders, they want me to put tracking numbers on every single payment. I'm truly sorry about it, but it should all be over with in the next few days once I have everything I need for them.

I'll be back later!


----------



## SoFGR




----------



## povohat

Thanks for the update bst!

A concern which was not addressed is the issue people seem to be having where the mouse suddenly has <1m/s max speed, possibly from using the reset button in software. It would be good to have this acknowledged and a possible fix investigated.


----------



## turnschuh

I finally had the chance to get my preorder now, it was delivered like a week ago though, but to a relative. Had to go and get it.

I really like it so far. The shape is good for my claw grip (could be slightly longer maybe), the coating on top and the plastic sides are nice and the low weight is great. Also It doesnt feel as cheap as i expected.

Sensor feel is good so far, didnt directly compared to my WMO or DA but had no issues regarding "smoothing". The only issue i had sometimes was that when doing a fast 180 (with a sens of like 38cm/360) that i didnt always land where i wanted to and instead higher or lower (little malfunction?). This happened like every 10th swipe maybe. Dont know if i lifted it up too early due to its low weight or if there was something on my pad (black qck+). I definitely didnt hit its max PCS. Rawinput on or off, 400 or 800 dpi didnt make any difference regarding this issue.
Oh and the LOD is low enough for me btw. Feels as high or low as the "original mode" on my FK1.

The left click feels a bit different compared to my right click, not as crisp. They are also slightly different in height (M1 is a bit lower) but i had no issues with it so far. They are really quiet though, even quieter than the clicks on my DA 3.5G, i like that. Just would be cool if M1 was as crisp as M2. (Maybe i can bend M1 a little upwards (?), will see)

The scrollwheel felt also good so far, maybe just a little noisy when scrolling up fast, but still not as bad as it is on my FK1 (which already has the quietest mwheel of the 4 different FK1s i had...). The notches are pronounced good enough imo, i have no problem scrolling one step at a time (up and down). Mwheel click is also good, not too heavy (DA 3.5G) and not too light (WMO).

Now the cable isnt great but it works somehow, especially if you got a mouse bungee (using the zowie one atm). Normally i just put something on the cable and form a loop but this didnt work with the aurora cable. Its the one mouse i have which really DOES need a mouse bungee.^^
But with a bungee and when using it how its supposed to be used, its no issue.
Will try to replace it with my old diamondbacks one anyways i think, when i get the chance.

The software didnt "brake" mine or lowered the PCS to 0.6 m/s, thankfully.
I installed it, made the changes, hit apply, plugged the mouse off, deinstalled the driver, restarted pc and plugged the mouse back in, to see if it saved the settings. (If anyone is curious how i did it.)

Would be good though if there was a firmware reset programm for those who got their mice messed up.
And maybe an option to disable the logo LED but keep the mwheel LED would be great.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my overall positive impression.

@bst Thanks for the update. I am eager to see that cable. ^^
Also wondering if there will be a fix for the driver software or a "firmware reset programm" for those who messed up their mice.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> 3- Cord:
> I'll see if I can get a much more flexible cord replacement and put it on Amazon at a very cheap price, the cord did get slightly stiffer after it went for CE/FCC certification


Had a feeling it was because of that. Same reason I think another company had to change their cord. Was it puretrak's mouse?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Hi all, I just want to say a few things quickly, to try and put peoples mind at ease:
> 
> 1- Deliveries:
> USA- They should be going out on monday via Amazon
> Rest of world- They have been sent on friday, but I was given no tracking numbers. They should be arriving soon though, they were on a 5 day service, but may be slightly delayed due to it being the holiday period.


That's all what's needed, a little TLC for all the customers out there.

I know it's the blasted holidays everywhere but looking forward to when everything gets back to normal so all the shipments can go unhindered towards their destinations.


----------



## petejones7

About the buttons: Do all the mice have the different m1/m2 heights and some have the actuation issue? Or is it only some of them have the height difference in the first place? Will it be fixed in future batches?


----------



## gutta

can someone make comparison pics with g100s and old abyssus please


----------



## nyshak

What about the software issues that seem to break the mouse for some? Have you had time to look into that?


----------



## Artifact

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> About the buttons: Do all the mice have the different m1/m2 heights and some have the actuation issue? Or is it only some of them have the height difference in the first place? Will it be fixed in future batches?


Mine don't have a height difference, nor actuation issues, and it was a preorder.


----------



## petejones7

AHHHHH I WANNA BUY IT SO BAD NOW BUT I'M STILL A LITTLE WORRIED


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> AHHHHH I WANNA BUY IT SO BAD NOW BUT I'M STILL A LITTLE WORRIED


just get it on mass drop, like $40. Hour and a half of work, piece of cake


----------



## petejones7

I'm a couple clicks away from getting it on Amazon, but if mine is defective or weird my heart will be broken


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> AHHHHH I WANNA BUY IT SO BAD NOW BUT I'M STILL A LITTLE WORRIED


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> I'm a couple clicks away from getting it on Amazon, but if mine is defective or weird my heart will be broken


Go ahead guys. Both of mine seem to have no issues and its the best mouse I've ever used so far.


----------



## petejones7

I did it. One-day shipping. I've been following this mouse for years. Although I've often dismayed by bst's disappearing acts, I know it's destined to be the greatest mouse ever made. Oh mouse gods send me your fortune.


----------



## aerobeing

Got the arrival notification on the 22-nd. Received the mouse on the 28.12.2014 because of the holiday post office closure. First impressions: the cursor handling is very good. The tracking is absolutely fine on a Hayate Soft L Japan violet. Mouse is very lightweight. Top coating is very nice. Shape is very comfortable. I love the fact that I was able to turn the LED-s off without a hassle, in comparison to CM Alcor. The side buttons should be wider vertically and the back one also horizontally. I really like the Alcor side buttons in comparison: I do not need to move the tip of my thumb to press either of them, when using a palm grip, just bend the thumb slightly. On Aurora, the back button is hard to press like that. I have not been able to press the side buttons by squeezing the side of the mouse. The cord is stiff. It can slightly affect the mouse because of the light weight of the mouse. The right button is slightly easier to press than the left. Wheel has very slight scrolling feedback. The feet are too thin and the plastic around them drags on my Hayate. I immediately stuck the extra feet on top of the original ones to rectify that and prevent damage to the mat. The left side of the shell (the one with the side buttons) has a 1 mm gap between the top and bottom parts, but it seems to be holding together fine. Ordered a G302.

http://imgur.com/a/YksIq


----------



## espgodson

wait what when will i get my mouse? i preordered and i'm in the US i spent €47.91 and i could spend $44.99 with my prime account and get it by wednesday. so i preordered 10/6/2014 and now people who didn't "pre"order can now buy it off amazon for a cheaper price than me and get it faster than me hahahha.

edit: im just assuming they arent going out since my order still says processing


----------



## rhapsody15

How is the plastic on the sides? Is it like a soft sandpaper feel? It looks textured.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rhapsody15*
> 
> How is the plastic on the sides? Is it like a soft sandpaper feel? It looks textured.


YES, it's slightly textured and easy to hold onto if you are one to pick up the mouse and fling it across your huge mouse pad quickly







.

My order came in from Massdrop TODAY and was glad to finally have this baby in my hot hand. Very comfortable as a ambidextrous device, as it should be, with a very matt finish upon the casing which helps to make it look like one of those expensive models. Although BST's is way better looking than most, even from Logitech, Razer and Steelseries, I just love how it easily nestles into your right hand like it was made for it in the first place.

Glad I jumped on the Massdrop order because they were the only ones to deliver this mouse whilst I have heard nothing from BST's own website when I paid for the devices up front all those months ago.

If anyone is seriously wanting a good quality mouse (way better than any of Zowie's junk pile) just get this one, way cheaper but has a better quality feel to it than some of it's opponents.


----------



## discoprince

JUST got an email from Amazon US saying the mouse was shipped and will be here tomorow (I was #71 pre-order on the Ninox site btw).

Honestly though I thought I'd never see the day, not that this hunk of junk is going to compare to my G302 in any way.

Better late than never I guess, getting it 1 day before 2015, lol


----------



## nyshak

Guess what. I was told (by Amazon) it would be there on 22nd. No mouse till today. Hm, maybe they meant the 22nd of Dec 2019.


----------



## CorruptBE

I ordered straight from Amazon, not NINOX.

Received mine last week. Time between delivery and buy date excluding weekends was a few days.


----------



## nyshak

Yep. Apparently when you pre-order is when you have to wait for 4 months. Up until now that is. There's no tracking number so Idk, my parcel could be in Kenia and I wouldn't know.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Yep. Apparently when you pre-order is when you have to wait for 4 months. Up until now that is. There's no tracking number so Idk, my parcel could be in Kenia and I wouldn't know.


Kenia believe it?


----------



## the1onewolf

Do you even reeves?


----------



## resis

I did the Massdrop thing and also didn't receive it yet.

Any Massdroppers received their in Europe?


----------



## Elrick

Also another note here, the cable attached to this mouse is far thicker than the Abyssus 2014 model.

So in fact, in my possession the Razer Abyssus 2014 has one of the slimmest, malleable rubber/plastic cables available out there on the market today. The BST version isn't thin but it won't interfere with it's movement anywhere on my mouse pad.

I just wish BST would of gotten a thinner mouse cable for this model because you'll have those that will complain like hell about the current one used, which is unfortunate.


----------



## CorruptBE

I wouldn't be surprised if the cable weighed more then the mouse...

It's "off" imo, having such a cable on such a lightweight mouse.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Also another note here, the cable attached to this mouse is far thicker than the Abyssus 2014 model.
> 
> So in fact, in my possession the Razer Abyssus 2014 has one of the slimmest, malleable rubber/plastic cables available out there on the market today. The BST version isn't thin but it won't interfere with it's movement anywhere on my mouse pad.
> 
> I just wish BST would of gotten a thinner mouse cable for this model because you'll have those that will complain like hell about the current one used, which is unfortunate.


Well, he said he's actually gonna look into selling a thinner cable on amazon, but I wouldn't expect that before 2017. >_>

In the meantime I just took one of my zowie cords and threw it in, much nicer now.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> In the meantime I just took one of my zowie cords and threw it in, much nicer now.


Which one did you use? Got a AM/FK/FK1 lying around atm.

Was it a simply plug out/plug in?


----------



## a_ak57

Used an FK13 cable. The wiring matches up so you don't have to worry about that, but the stress relief is larger on the FK so it wouldn't fit. I could have shaved off part of it so it'd work, but I'm lazy so I just reeled it in some and have a normal section of the cable going through the hole. I should actually modify the stress relief so it fits, but oh well.


----------



## Johan450

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I did the Massdrop thing and also didn't receive it yet.
> 
> Any Massdroppers received their in Europe?


Sweden, and yes I have mine.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Used an FK13 cable. The wiring matches up so you don't have to worry about that, but the stress relief is larger on the FK so it wouldn't fit. I could have shaved off part of it so it'd work, but I'm lazy so I just reeled it in some and have a normal section of the cable going through the hole. I should actually modify the stress relief so it fits, but oh well.


K, stress relief I can work around. Gonna check up on some threads with FK1 mods into AM's, etc. If that cable is interchangeable I can use one from my trashed (tried to mod the lens without proper tools xD) AM.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if the cable weighed more then the mouse...
> 
> It's "off" imo, having such a cable on such a lightweight mouse.


The body of the mouse is way more than the cable, cmon stop exaggerating about the weight of this cable. The thinnest, and very light weight cable currently available is from the Razer Abyssus 2014 model (which I have) hence I know what I am talking about.

I know there is one seller on Ebay actually selling Abyssus cables with connectors hence that's were I bought a couple, now have to wait for delivery.


----------



## CorruptBE

I'm not going to lie about it either









Sense of humor, it's in overreacting people make certain things "clear".


----------



## Nilizum

K. I got this mouse. I like everything about it, but the clicks could be a bit lighter, and the cord could be less stiff. That's about it. 9/10


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I did the Massdrop thing and also didn't receive it yet.
> 
> Any Massdroppers received their in Europe?


I'm from Europe and don't have mine yet.


----------



## povohat

I received mine today, about 12 hours ago. TL;DR everything is very good except the mouse1/mouse2 disparity. Both my samples have the same 'problem' of mouse2 being easier to click than mouse1. I ended up bending the mouse2 button slightly back to give it the same click timing as mouse1. Be very careful if you intend on doing this!


----------



## nyshak

BST said that only a small sample size of the hole stock was affected by this. Yet, so many of us here who have received their product have the issue.

Seems like this is more widespread than BST thinks. Not good.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> K, stress relief I can work around. Gonna check up on some threads with FK1 mods into AM's, etc. If that cable is interchangeable I can use one from my trashed (tried to mod the lens without proper tools xD) AM.


AM cable doesn't even have a stress relief.


----------



## Oeshon

I received mine yesterday. The shape feels nice, the clicks are ok, and the sensor feel and coating is also good. I also have the problem of one mouse click being higher than the other and having a slight different feel, right click is more mushy.

I would prefer if the rubber coating on top would have more grip. Another preference would be if the sides were not v slanted. Personally as a claw gripper I feel it always better to have straight sides.

The cons I would also say first is the cable, it's hard to get a good angle on this thing so it doesn't effect mouse movement. Second, it would be the software.

Bst needs to fix the software pronto, it is very buggy. I installed it, configured my settings and then restarted my computer. Then I went to the icon on the bottom right to close the software so then I could proceed to control panel and uninstall it (dunno why I went to close it first, go straight to control panel and skip this step to avoid the bug). What happened is the software didn't close and my dpi changed by itself. So then I restarted the computer again only to have the same bug appear as the software loaded. The mouse cursor also froze for a few seconds.

I uninstalled the software after and my mouse settings are ok. I hope I won't get the same problem with pcs that some people got after resetting profiles. So yeah until there is a patch to the software avoid "reset profile" and closing the app manually.

All in all the mouse is good, but there is def some room for improvement.

I would list the pros and cons as follows:

*Pros*:
1. Good shape for claw and fingertip
2. Raw sensor feel
3. Great lod at around 2mm (1.5 - 2mm is the perfect range, anything else either feels too low or too high)
4. Light
5. Plastic on sides good for grip however I would personally prefer if the sides were not v slanted.
6. Center sensor positioning

*Cons*:
1. Software is buggy
2. Cable is thick and not very flexible
3. Mouse feet are too thin and small (WMO size feet are slightly bigger and would suit it better)
4. Clicks are not even

Overall I would give the mouse 7/10


----------



## FoxWolf1

Wonder where mine is...I was in the first 50 preorders and still have no shipping notification (and the Ninox website still says "processing").

Edit: just got notification. Yay!


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> 
> 
> You can remove those button "strips" from the shell. Then you can just bend them along that ridge or all across. Not too much obviously or you may break it.
> 
> 
> 
> Just experiment a bit until you have the feel you want. It took me about 4 times to get it just right. The third time I had bent it too much so then it was pressing the switch down on its own. So I bent it back a little and now it's great. Left click is just a whee bit lighter than right now, but both feel very similiar and great.
> 
> When removing the buttons you may break lips that attach them to the shell. Try not to break them. But if you do, don't worry the mouse is still perfectly usable. When I first removed the right mouse button, which seemed to come off easier so I decided to try on that one first, I accidently broke both of the lips off.
> 
> 
> 
> The big one in the front seems to prevent the button from having a bit of sideways play. So my right button now has that but it's a minor issue that I don't mind enough to try and fix it. The smaller back one seems irrelevant so break it all you want.
> 
> That concludes fixing an Aurora. Use at your own risk obviously.


Hey @Gigantoad thanks a lot for the pics and walkthrough. I got some questions:

I just replaced the cable with one of my old diamondbacks, everything went fine but my M1 is very hard to press now (harder than the clicks on my FK1 and not in the positive way), before it was already slighty, very slightly harder to press but not as pronounced and rather mushy than M2. Do you got any idea what might went wrong? The cable for example isnt routed on the left side near the left mouse button switch but because of the stress relief on the diamondsback cable i routed it the other way so that the stress relief is on the back of the mouse.

(Issue fixed now, see below^^)

Like that:


EDIT: Haha, i fixed it already: As you can see on the pic, the cable i plugged in like that (right above the plug) was the issue, had to route it differently. M1 is as easy to press as before (not as good as M2 though.)

EDIT#2: Still the question if its possible to have my M1 feel like my M2, maybe you Gigantoad of somebody else can help me out with this:

The left button was from the beginning lower than the right button shell part, but the right button is very easy to click, has more travel and is very crisp.
Is it possible to bend the sheel part of M1 to be like M2?
Because it seems that in your case it was the other way around (?), you wanted to lower the button heigh, right?

About the M1 and M2 shell part, i was too worried braking something and didnt know where to start. Like do i pull it first on the front of the mouse (above the switch) or do i try to push those pins out and pull the 2 clips somehow?

How exactly did you do it? =)

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Xanatos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> 5- Refunds:
> At the moment I am having trouble issuing refunds to people whose orders are over 60 days old, because paypal limited my account due to the large amount of orders, they want me to put tracking numbers on every single payment. I'm truly sorry about it, but it should all be over with in the next few days once I have everything I need for them.
> 
> I'll be back later!


I submitted a support ticket for a refund a while ago, but I just received a shipping notification.

c'mon


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> BST said that only a small sample size of the hole stock was affected by this. Yet, so many of us here who have received their product have the issue.
> 
> Seems like this is more widespread than BST thinks. Not good.


Yea seriously, what a joke.

I had hoped for a truthful and constructive post from bst regarding all the problems with the buttons: the fact of the height differences, actuation differences, and the different clicks which seem like differing switches. There are many people reporting such problems so this isn't an isolated problem. But instead of coming out and speaking of all the defective mice and any commitments to fix them, we get barely a mention that a problem even exists. He obviously understated the problem. I already returned the mouse to massdrop but I have serious doubts about the replacement not having the same issues.

Hi,

Thanks for sending over those photos! I'm sorry to hear that, and I understand that defective can be incredibly frustrating. This definitely should not have happened to the mouse. I would be more than happy to work on getting you a replacement.

First, could you please fill out the attached Warranty Claim and send back the digital copy to me?

Here is a link to a prepaid shipping label so you can return the defective product to us:

Please cut the paper at the dotted line. Place the paper with the RMA information within the package, along with your defective product. The shipping label will need to be placed on the outside of the package.

Once I receive your Warranty Claim and the warehouse receives your defective product, we will work on getting a replacement sent to you.

Let me know if you have any questions or concerns!

Massdrop Support

Please use the edit button instead of double posting


----------



## thizito

Joke is blaming bst.. If u expected more than a amateur mouse company could do, u shouldnt buy
Is almost a 'garage guy' building mices for people .. He tryed his best i believe


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Joke is blaming bst.. If u expected more than a amateur mouse company could do, u shouldnt buy
> Is almost a 'garage guy' building mices for people .. He tryed his best i believe


Yes it was. BST built this himself and sent it over to a Chinese manufacturer to build it. Again some people are complaining about Q&A issues but that's not BST's fault, it's the manufacturer hence everyone got this mouse at a real decent price. If this mouse was priced around $80.00 to $100.00 then it wouldn't represent good value at all but I bought mine for a little over $34.00 hence time to grow up and appreciate what you received for that amount of money.

He delivered it well despite numerous disruptions (nothing to do with him), yet we get the ESR and this lot here building a scaffold to hang him already. It just goes to show I would never in a million years run any type of Group Buy anywhere, just so I could get abused and put down continuously by these inept and selfish individuals who know nothing about EVER making a mouse from scratch.

Instead of being happy and thanking him for even bothering to provide a mouse (which I personally like to use) for everyone here we still get the underhand put downs and negative sentiment. Maybe this is the world now, everyone expecting a PERFECT product (on it's very first run) and holding him up to a higher standard than the scumbags at Logitech, Razer or Zowie. Very nasty and totally uncalled for. First he isn't a million dollar corporation he's just himself, next he'll certainly provide a way better rma service then the disgusting Logitech will ever supply any type of service here in AUSTRALIA (true personal fact).

I just feel sorry for him in even trying to deliver something to everyone here on this forum because it's a waste of time. Never ever do anything good for ingrates because they will only keep kicking you in the balls for doing it.

Had my say.


----------



## thizito

I agree.. I preordered because i like him
And wanna support like pvh said before
Even if i dont receive a working one, ill be happy to have one in my collection.. And i doubt it.. Ill love play with it


----------



## kicksome

I bought one knowing that I probably won't love it because it's not really my cup of tea, but mostly to support him. I would like to see him go on and make more mice, stick it to the big companies


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Yes it was. BST built this himself and sent it over to a Chinese manufacturer to build it. Again some people are complaining about Q&A issues but that's not BST's fault, it's the manufacturer hence everyone got this mouse at a real decent price. If this mouse was priced around $80.00 to $100.00 then it wouldn't represent good value at all but I bought mine for a little over $34.00 hence time to grow up and appreciate what you received for that amount of money.
> 
> He delivered it well despite numerous disruptions (nothing to do with him), yet we get the ESR and this lot here building a scaffold to hang him already. It just goes to show I would never in a million years run any type of Group Buy anywhere, just so I could get abused and put down continuously by these inept and selfish individuals who know nothing about EVER making a mouse from scratch.
> 
> Instead of being happy and thanking him for even bothering to provide a mouse (which I personally like to use) for everyone here we still get the underhand put downs and negative sentiment. Maybe this is the world now, everyone expecting a PERFECT product (on it's very first run) and holding him up to a higher standard than the scumbags at Logitech, Razer or Zowie. Very nasty and totally uncalled for. First he isn't a million dollar corporation he's just himself, next he'll certainly provide a way better rma service then the disgusting Logitech will ever supply any type of service here in AUSTRALIA (true personal fact).
> 
> I just feel sorry for him in even trying to deliver something to everyone here on this forum because it's a waste of time. Never ever do anything good for ingrates because they will only keep kicking you in the balls for doing it.
> 
> Had my say.


Oh please. He's not a guy doing this for charity, he's running a business. QC issues aren't his fault, but there is so much he has done wrong it's a joke to actually act like it's our fault for being upset. He constantly disappears (BUT HE'S TOTALLY GONNA STOP DOING THAT FROM NOW ON) and doesn't even cancel bloody orders over a month later and then the mice get shipped out. And then there's the whole thing where people who preordered for $60+ on the site still haven't even gotten the mice while the massdrop/amazon folk got them weeks ago for considerably cheaper.

Sure, it's great he has brought this mouse and there's room for improvement on the manufacturing side that we should cut him slack on, but he has screwed up numerous times in numerous ways that are simply nobody's fault other than his own. The whole "oh there's a problem" thing stops bringing in empathy after the 5th time it happens. Maybe that should clue him into the fact he should stop making promises he can't keep. And maybe he should actually post more than once every week or two when people are screaming for updates because their money in hanging in the ether. He's running a business at the end of the day, and he has done so quite poorly. Yes, it's his first time, but he has literally had years to learn from mistakes. And more recently, he has had the last two months to change his ways and stop doing the "imma go AWOL" thing people have complained about. There is zero reason he can't have responded to customer concerns like "hey why is it december and my order is still processing" sooner than every two weeks.

"Who cares about QC issues, just RMA" isn't a valid response to those who preordered from his site, for one thing. If he so bad at responding to simple requests like order cancellation that the orders go through a month+ later, how many years will it take for him to actually get around to an RMA? He has had years to get his act together. I have no more empathy for him, at this point it's obvious he's just completely unsuited to run a business. If he wants to make another mouse, go for it, but stick to the designing and let someone competent actually handle the business aspects. If that's the case I'll be on board. If not, I'll laugh as all of this same stuff happens again in another 4 years.

Oh right, and "well yeah we changed the cable but why mention that lol."


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Used an FK13 cable. The wiring matches up so you don't have to worry about that, but the stress relief is larger on the FK so it wouldn't fit. I could have shaved off part of it so it'd work, but I'm lazy so I just reeled it in some and have a normal section of the cable going through the hole. I should actually modify the stress relief so it fits, but oh well.


I just did this to one of my Auroras. Modifying the stress relief plug sucks because of the way the internal FK wiring enters it on one side, as opposed to the middle. After a lot of shaving it down and bending, I managed to get it all to fit. The improvement in feel after replacing the cable is significant. I would recommend others to find a nice cable that requires less modding.


----------



## Nilizum

I think I like the Abyssus2014 better than the Aurora tho.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I think I like the Abyssus2014 better than the Aurora tho.


Why?


----------



## Nilizum

@Max

Well, the buttons and the cord, plus lower weight because I removed the metal inside. The height and butt of the mouse allow me to have wider arcing range so I can keep a low sensitivity and maximize my mousepad space before running out, while keeping enough contact points on my hand for adequate recognition. If I do the same on the Aurora, I find myself having more trouble than i'd like pivoting, swiping (cord), and flicking (stiff clicks).


----------



## Creizai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I think I like the Abyssus2014 better than the Aurora tho.


I could totally see this. The original Abyssus weight was godlike, cable great, and the feet were good. The LoL edition I bought had horrible jitter and the shape was junk for me. I finally got my Ninox amazon info. Says I get it on the 5th... so sure enough 2015 after all hahah.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> @Max
> 
> Well, the buttons and the cord, plus lower weight because I removed the metal inside. *The height and butt of the mouse allow me to have wider arcing range so I can keep a low sensitivity and maximize my mousepad space before running out*, while keeping enough contact points on my hand for adequate recognition. If I do the same on the Aurora, I find myself having more trouble than i'd like pivoting, swiping (cord), and flicking (stiff clicks).


I see... well I guess in your case you would need a mouse built ONLY for fingertip grip for people with small hands.

If the aurora was made smaller like what you describe it would make the mouse unusable for many people and many grips.

As is, it is almost the ideal all-around mouse for all grips and hand sizes.

Wait, just so we're clear, you mean you want a shorter height and smaller butt right? And you're using fingertip grip right? Might be confusing your post with someone else's.


----------



## Nilizum

@Max

If the aurora had a wider butt and a bit higher height. 70% palm, 30% claw. If it was any smaller, I'd kill myself.


----------



## Dreyka

Aurora arrived today.

*Impressions so far:*


Haven't noticed anything odd about LMB and RMB
Works quite well for a fingertip grip. May be slightly too long for my tastes but the low height, vertical sides and shorter length work well.
Just used the software to set polling rate to 1000Hz, turn off the led and set CPI settings to 400, 800, 1600.
Cable is kinked from being wrapped up and is stiffer than I would like but it isn't Logitech stiff.
Scroll wheel feels very cheap. Rattles and each step doesn't feel clearly defined
Side button clicks feel nice

Overall, I think it's a decent mouse. The build quality of the scroll wheel needs to be greatly improved and it needs a different cable. I would happily pay $50 for a PMW-3310 version for improved build quality.


----------



## discoprince

got mine:

there was a piece of plastic in between the gap of MB1 and the grainy base where you would bottom out during clicking. so i couldn't click the left mouse button until i lifted the button up and the plastic fell out. i have no idea if it was an internal piece that broke off or a piece of debris from the factory that just happened to wedge its way in and still pass QC.

overall a disappointment. for the wait time + extra money i had to pay for the mouse being shipped to the states.

the shape is good, the weight is good and i liked the coating and grainy sides a lot more then i thought i would. if this mouse existed before the G302 it would have been my main squeeze but the G302 fits my grip pretty much perfectly.
its put together better than i thought, i also have the right mouse button spaced about 1mm away from center like some other users reported.

the button clicks and scroll wheel are trash, they are omrons but they feel like white dot switches from the way the shell clicks the switch. they're not terrible but after clicking a G302 compared to this they just plain aren't as good. the scroll wheel is atrocious, just a smooth gliding blob.

the side buttons are good, the huanos was a good call i believe that should be the standard for all side buttons.

cable is the worst i've seen, worse than logitech cables (if you think those are bad)

the sensor: 3090, feels like im using a kana v2 but in a different shell. not much else to say. i didnt install the software because it looks like from what im reading if you do your pc explodes. i just plugged in the mouse and set it to the red led setting which i think is 800dpi and whatever the mouse polls at out of the box and it felt pretty good. LOD is pretty high, feels very similar to kana v2.

the mouse feet seem pretty thin (which was whatever considering how they came on the FK1) but for the time i had it on my hayate gliding around was pretty fun, light mouse are nice. if i were to use it i'd probably stick another set of feet over the stock ones and that would be just fine.

but yeah the G302 is pretty much perfect for me so the Aurora is insta-shelfed.

thanks bst.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> May be slightly too long for my tastes


This made me check the title of the thread to double check I was in the thread I thought I was... jeez...

This isn't a fingertip grip only mouse. There are a bunch of those already. In palm grip my fingers go over the front of the mouse and touch the mousepad in front of the mouse..........

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> the scroll wheel is atrocious, just a smooth gliding blob.


Hmm, that's two of you who've just said that... I wonder if it's a quality control issue or if you're just more picky than me, because mine certainly has discernible notches.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> the sensor: 3090, feels like im using a kana v2 but in a different shell. not much else to say.


Is that a good or bad thing? I know some people said the kana v2 had horrible smoothing, then other people said it was fine.

Which would you say is overall better, the kana v2 or aurora?


----------



## zeflow

anyone fee like the LOD is too high? will it be possible to lower it with updated software? thanks


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: MaximilianKohler



Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler* 

This made me check the title of the thread to double check I was in the thread I thought I was... jeez...

This isn't a fingertip grip only mouse. There are a bunch of those already. In palm grip my fingers go over the front of the mouse and touch the mousepad in front of the mouse..........
Hmm, that's two of you who've just said that... I wonder if it's a quality control issue or if you're just more picky than me, because mine certainly has discernible notches.
Is that a good or bad thing? I know some people said the kana v2 had horrible smoothing, then other people said it was fine.

Which would you say is overall better, the kana v2 or aurora?



I know it's made more for a claw grip. You have giant hands and mine are small enough that I can actually palm grip the Aurora.

The steps have some definition (more than the Mico) but not as much as to my liking. The real issue is the rattle on the scroll wheel when scrolling and it wheel wobbles left and right as well. CM Storm Alcor had the same problem. It's the major thing that stops this mouse from feeling premium rather than made on the cheap. If the cable and scroll wheel was fixed then I'd be happy with the build quality.

To my surprise I actually like the plastic used for the sides because it's quite grippy.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> I know it's made more for a claw grip. You have giant hands and mine are small enough that I can actually palm grip the Aurora.
> 
> The steps have some definition (more than the Mico) but not as much as to my liking. The real issue is the rattle on the scroll wheel when scrolling and it wheel wobbles left and right as well. CM Storm Alcor had the same problem. It's the major thing that stops this mouse from feeling premium rather than made on the cheap. If the cable and scroll wheel was fixed then I'd be happy with the build quality.
> 
> To my surprise I actually like the plastic used for the sides because it's quite grippy.


Hmm... again it's hard to tell whether it's a QC issue or whether you're just more picky about this specific aspect. But I have a feeling it's probably QC.

Any noise when I scroll my wheel is from the notches. I can shake my mouse and get a slight rattle, but even that is quieter than the friction noise that comes from moving the mouse on my mousepad.

I do have large hands, but not exactly gigantic. There are people 5" shorter than me with larger hands. My hands are only about 1-2cm longer than Ino's if I recall correctly.

I have no problem with the sizes of the most popular mice in the past 10-15 years (518, g5/500, IE 1.1, 3.0, DA, copperhead, etc.). When I go to a store that has mice on the layout there are lots of mice that fit my hand well. It's only in recent years that gaming mice have been getting really small.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> anyone fee like the LOD is too high? will it be possible to lower it with updated software? thanks


No, 3090 got high lod.
Only way to lower it is from custom lens like zowie had.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This made me check the title of the thread to double check I was in the thread I thought I was... jeez...
> 
> This isn't a fingertip grip only mouse. There are a bunch of those already. In palm grip my fingers go over the front of the mouse and touch the mousepad in front of the mouse..........
> Hmm, that's two of you who've just said that... I wonder if it's a quality control issue or if you're just more picky than me, because mine certainly has discernible notches.
> Is that a good or bad thing? I know some people said the kana v2 had horrible smoothing, then other people said it was fine.
> 
> Which would you say is overall better, the kana v2 or aurora?


kana v2 with its latest FW for sure.
if you absolutely need 2 buttons on the side then the aurora but i still think you'll be disappointed. the aurora is also very narrow, i dont like that.
if i had small asian boy hands i might like the aurora i think.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> kana v2 with its latest FW for sure.
> if you absolutely need 2 buttons on the side then the aurora but i still think you'll be disappointed. the aurora is also very narrow, i dont like that.
> if i had small asian boy hands i might like the aurora i think.


What did the latest firmware for the kana v2 do? What else besides the narrowness of the aurora sets the two apart?

I actually prefer the 1 button on each side that the kana has. When there's 2 on one side I can usually only click one of them without releasing my grip, whereas when there's one on the right side I can usually click it by squeezing my ring finger.

I looked up the dimensions and both the aurora and kana v2 are around 60mm in the middle: http://s260.photobucket.com/user/RocKien_2008/media/13_zps39e1ceef.jpg.html - whereas the kana gets wider in the back like the FK1. Have you used the FK1?

The aurora actually seems to cramp my hand less than the FK1 even though they're both equally thin in the middle. I'm wondering if it has to do with the FK1 being more narrow in the middle than in the back which forces you squeeze your fingers in at a different angle than your palm. The rival does the same thing and also cramps my hand pretty badly.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Which would you say is overall better, the kana v2 or aurora?


Quality "feel": Kana v2

Performance: Aurora. Better 3090 implementation imo.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Quality "feel": Kana v2


Build quality?


----------



## chrispow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Build quality?


You weren't asking me, but I hope you don't mind me chiming in with my thoughts on the two.

The Kana v2 has the highest LOD of any mouse I've ever used. It's a disaster. The build quality feels much more solid, but is that in part because of the materials used for light weight on the Aurora? The Kana v2 feels significantly heavier to me (websites say it's about the same). Perhaps because the only real \/ shape on the body is at the very front and I tend to claw closer to the middle. I would probably like the Kana a lot more if the LOD wasn't so high. Can't really comment on smoothing, but the Aurora feels really snappy and nice.

The Aurora mousewheel to me looks and feels cheap at the superficial level. When it comes to using it, I have no problems finding each step and deciding precisely how many steps I want to scroll. If people here mean that you can't feel notches with your fingertip on the mousewheel, I would agree but personally do not see this as a problem. My mousewheel however has already started squeaking and as a result there's more friction to the scroll when that happens, and I'm going to open it up and have a look at that.

Maybe it's a personal preference thing, but I really like how light the Aurora wheel is so my concern is consistency and longevity . We'll find out on that front. For reference, I despise the slow mousewheel on the FK13 (havent tried the updated one).


----------



## hfcobra

I have my Aurora. Have to say I really like it. It is on par with my FK2 easily. It feels almost the same due to being lighter with lighter switches. I think I might have liked it a tad heavier though with bigger feet like the Zowie. Need more time with it to make a full decision but it is definitely a good mouse.

Can't wait for the next one!

Edit: The LOD is starting to get annoying actually. It isn't really high, but it is higher than the FK2. Probably 1.5CDs while the FK2 is less than 1CD.


----------



## SoFGR

bst was aware of "smoothing" long long ago

http://esreality.com/?a=post&id=2173191#pid2245483

http://www.esreality.com/post/2487925/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-2/#pid2654230

http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2679310

Haven't received mine just, amazon UK says that it should be there by christmas









anybody measured the malfunction + perfect control speed on this pad yet ?
http://bcchardware.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20972

it must be of skylit's faves


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> No, 3090 got high lod.
> Only way to lower it is from custom lens like zowie had.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hfcobra*
> 
> Can't wait for the next one!
> 
> Edit: The LOD is starting to get annoying actually. It isn't really high, but it is higher than the FK2. Probably 1.5CDs while the FK2 is less than 1CD.


bst didn't use a low lift-off _intentionally_, so we can just use the lift-off fixes our selfes. Not everyone liked it on the zowie AM/FK, including me.

I recommend using this one, but doing it with a non permanent maker http://www.overclock.net/t/1461248/advanced-tape-trick


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> What did the latest firmware for the kana v2 do? What else besides the narrowness of the aurora sets the two apart?
> 
> I actually prefer the 1 button on each side that the kana has. When there's 2 on one side I can usually only click one of them without releasing my grip, whereas when there's one on the right side I can usually click it by squeezing my ring finger.
> 
> I looked up the dimensions and both the aurora and kana v2 are around 60mm in the middle: http://s260.photobucket.com/user/RocKien_2008/media/13_zps39e1ceef.jpg.html - whereas the kana gets wider in the back like the FK1. Have you used the FK1?
> 
> The aurora actually seems to cramp my hand less than the FK1 even though they're both equally thin in the middle. I'm wondering if it has to do with the FK1 being more narrow in the middle than in the back which forces you squeeze your fingers in at a different angle than your palm. The rival does the same thing and also cramps my hand pretty badly.


you have been an advocate of the MLT04 sensor for quite some time.
im not sure why you think that Aurora is the saviour, when there are plenty of 3310 and AM010 sensor implementations that are much better than the 3090 in the Aurora.

the 3090 is EOL and doesn't even compete with any of the newer sensors, bst's mouse is no different. people are hyping it because its finally arrived, albeit to late. its not a good mouse, esp not for the money you pay for it living in the states(not to mention the poor build quality).

the new kana v2 FW is much less laggy and the LOD was improved some what (i taped trick when i used it), its high, but no higher than the Aurora's 3090. its better than the Aurora's 3090 setup, but the Aurora's 3090 isnt too far off, it still feels pretty raw.

i still wouldnt recommend either of the mice, unless the shapes/weight are *must* haves.


----------



## petejones7

Are you saying the Kana v2 with new firmware has the same exact LOD as the Aurora without using the tape trick?


----------



## Nivity

Still wanna try bsts mosue but 60$ is just to much because I know I will hate the low quality of it, and people complaining about scrollwheel, the extreme Quality issues with mousebuttons etc.

Not worth it, and the fact that it still have 3090 so it's not really much different from the kana v2 cept its lighter which is always good.
Lod is still garbage high on 3090 non zowie and needs tapefix for me atleast, sensor still have some smoothing no matter what 3090 mouse it is.
Buttons on kana v2 is somewhat crap aswell, much stiffer and worse feedback then most omron mice, especially compared to kpm, most logitech mice.


----------



## chrispow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petejones7*
> 
> Are you saying the Kana v2 with new firmware has the same exact LOD as the Aurora without using the tape trick?


I'd love to know this.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> you have been an advocate of the MLT04 sensor for quite some time.
> im not sure why you think that Aurora is the saviour,


I didn't say it was... I'm actually hoping the FinalMouse will be. But it does have the good shape of the FK1 (just too thin still), and sensor performance equal to the KPM. So so far it's the best mouse I've tested in the past 5 years or so.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> when there are plenty of 3310 and AM010 sensor implementations that are much better than the 3090 in the Aurora.


Could you name them?

I never bothered with the g100s because it doesn't have side buttons and my friend said it's clearly inferior to his 3.0. And I've been skeptical about the other logitech mice because they hyped their 3366 so much and it turned out to be a disappointment. And then recently I just read some bad experiences people have with those mice:

_"Another example, G402 vs G302, both use the same sensor, both have low latency, yet the tracking is insanely different between the two mice and the difference isn't going to be uncovered with measuring latency. The gyroscope most likely negatively affects movement on the G402 even when operating under malfunction speed, while the mouse otherwise has very little or no movement correction. The G302 on the other hand, has no gyroscope, but seems to have much higher levels of movement correction. They managed to somewhat screw up both mice in completely different ways that aren't going to be uncovered by probably any test you can devise."_ - http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/250_50#post_23352392

302 & 402 & 100s bug: http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/250_50#post_23352877

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> the 3090 is EOL and doesn't even compete with any of the newer sensors, bst's mouse is no different. people are hyping it because its finally arrived, albeit to late. its not a good mouse, esp not for the money you pay for it living in the states(not to mention the poor build quality).


Look, I agree with the build quality, which is one of the reasons I won't be keeping it, but the FK1 for example doesn't even get the 50dpi increments benefit of the 3310 since it's driverless and doesn't have a way to change dpi by steps of 50. Being that LOD is an easy, quick fix with the tape trick, I really don't see any major benefits from buying a 3310 FK1/2 over the 3090 aurora. Especially when the aurora's sensor implementation is much better than zowie's 3090 & 3310. The build quality between the FK1/2 and aurora is also pretty similar.

Now if you're going to point to a mouse like the KPM (which I previously praised for having a better sensor than most other mice including the 3366), in comparison with the aurora the KPM has worse shape and worse weight. I would definitely go with the aurora over the KPM.

I'm still testing the mouse and holding off for a full review, but so far I can say BST did a good job especially considering he's only one guy.


----------



## kicksome

just a quick question for those of you who got onboard with the previous Massdrop: How long did it take from when the drop ended to the mouse actually being mailed out to you? i think i was #26 in line so hopefully mine goes out with the first batch if thats how they do it
keen to get my hands on one of these bad boys


----------



## a_ak57

Maybe like 2.5 weeks. But keep in mind that nobody had the mouse for most of that period. Now that they're out and about it might be quicker (or it might be longer, who knows with massdrop).


----------



## kicksome

ahh right, thanks.
I wont hold my breath then. And i'll try not to buy another mouse in the mean time lol


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I didn't say it was... I'm actually hoping the FinalMouse will be. But it does have the good shape of the FK1 (just too thin still), and sensor performance equal to the KPM. So so far it's the best mouse I've tested in the past 5 years or so.
> Could you name them?
> 
> I never bothered with the g100s because it doesn't have side buttons and my friend said it's clearly inferior to his 3.0. And I've been skeptical about the other logitech mice because they hyped their 3366 so much and it turned out to be a disappointment. And then recently I just read some bad experiences people have with those mice:
> 
> _"Another example, G402 vs G302, both use the same sensor, both have low latency, yet the tracking is insanely different between the two mice and the difference isn't going to be uncovered with measuring latency. The gyroscope most likely negatively affects movement on the G402 even when operating under malfunction speed, while the mouse otherwise has very little or no movement correction. The G302 on the other hand, has no gyroscope, but seems to have much higher levels of movement correction. They managed to somewhat screw up both mice in completely different ways that aren't going to be uncovered by probably any test you can devise."_ - http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/250_50#post_23352392
> 
> 302 & 402 & 100s bug: http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/250_50#post_23352877
> Look, I agree with the build quality, which is one of the reasons I won't be keeping it, but the FK1 for example doesn't even get the 50dpi increments benefit of the 3310 since it's driverless and doesn't have a way to change dpi by steps of 50. Being that LOD is an easy, quick fix with the tape trick, I really don't see any major benefits from buying a 3310 FK1/2 over the 3090 aurora. Especially when the aurora's sensor implementation is much better than zowie's 3090 & 3310. The build quality between the FK1/2 and aurora is also pretty similar.
> 
> Now if you're going to point to a mouse like the KPM (which I previously praised for having a better sensor than most other mice including the 3366), in comparison with the aurora the KPM has worse shape and worse weight. I would definitely go with the aurora over the KPM.
> 
> I'm still testing the mouse and holding off for a full review, but so far I can say BST did a good job especially considering he's only one guy.


I really don't know how you felt the 3366 was inferior to the 3310 in any way. I believe it's mainly due to the shape that it felt like that to you.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> just a quick question for those of you who got onboard with the previous Massdrop: How long did it take from when the drop ended to the mouse actually being mailed out to you? i think i was #26 in line so hopefully mine goes out with the first batch if thats how they do it
> keen to get my hands on one of these bad boys


I'm in Europe and I still don't have mine from the first drop...


----------



## a_ak57

Oh right, that 2.5 weeks was until they shipped it, not when I actually got it BTW. But again, different circumstances then as well so who knows. But in general if you want something quickly massdrop ain't your source.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Still wanna try bsts mosue but 60$ is just to much because I know I will hate the low quality of it, and people complaining about scrollwheel, the extreme Quality issues with mousebuttons etc.
> 
> Not worth it, and the fact that it still have 3090 so it's not really much different from the kana v2 cept its lighter which is always good.
> Lod is still garbage high on 3090 non zowie and needs tapefix for me atleast, sensor still have some smoothing no matter what 3090 mouse it is.
> Buttons on kana v2 is somewhat crap aswell, much stiffer and worse feedback then most omron mice, especially compared to kpm, most logitech mice.


Read #2336 ?

Also the scrollwheel is easily fixable aswell. You have just to stick a thin piece of plasic somewhere, and the scroll gets almost to defined. But yea, if u want a perfect mouse out of the box, without doing anything yourself, the mouse isn't for you. (but we all know there is no such thing.)


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: acid_reptile



Originally Posted by *acid_reptile* 


> Read #2336 ?
> 
> Also the scrollwheel is easily fixable aswell. You have just to stick a thin piece of plasic somewhere, and the scroll gets almost to defined. But yea, if u want a perfect mouse out of the box, without doing anything yourself, the mouse isn't for you. (but we all know there is no such thing.)






Where would you stick the plastic?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I really don't know how you felt the 3366 was inferior to the 3310 in any way. I believe it's mainly due to the shape that it felt like that to you.


No, I wouldn't say "the 3310 is better than the 3366". I say "the implementation of the 3310 in the KPM is better than the g502".

Other 3310 mice I tested like the rival, avior7000 (early firmware), and FK1, were all worse than the 3366.

It really depends on how each company implements the sensor in their mouse.

The 3090 aurora feels much better than the 3090 in the FK.

Also, I didn't like the KPM shape at all. The FK1 shape is vastly better (just too thin for me), but the FK1 3310 implementation is worse than the KPM's.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I really don't know how you felt the 3366 was inferior to the 3310 in any way. I believe it's mainly due to the shape that it felt like that to you.
> I'm in Europe and I still don't have mine from the first drop...


You'll have to wait







I still do not have mine from the pre-order 10/10/2014


----------



## Creizai

Saw this over at esreality, I know someone was asking if they could put 3.0 mouse feet on the mice looks like you can.


Grabbing the .7/.8 would help with the LOD, plus hyperglides are a must have on just about any mouse.


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> the new kana v2 FW is much less laggy


So it's much less laggy than an implementation that has a negligible amount of lag?


----------



## petejones7

The 3.0/WMO (Hyperglide MS-3) mouse feet do not fit on the Aurora. I just ordered some Hyperglide MS-2's and I'll see if those fit.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

The aurora seems to malfunction so much easier than my 3.0... which is odd considering it's supposed to be able to track twice as fast...

Might have to do with the fact that the 3.0 just gets neg accel rather than malfunctioning completely. Whereas the aurora will either stop tracking or look at the ground/sky.

I checked the sensor for dirt/hair. My mousepad is clean and no logos to mess with tracking.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsKb*
> 
> So it's much less laggy than an implementation that has a negligible amount of lag?


Pretty sure he was comparing it to an older firmware version of the kana v2, not the aurora. Older kana v2 firmwares were reported to have really bad "smoothing".


----------



## iceskeleton

Your firmware/software is messed up probably, someone had the same problem after using the software to change some settings.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1531574/ninox-aurora-drivers-can-break-your-mouse-and-give-you-clown-cursor-for-life


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I didn't install the software. I can get 3m/s in enotus.


----------



## CorruptBE

Software worked fine here, but after setting the required settings I disabled it just to make sure. No leds/1000Hz and ability to switch 400/800/1600 dpi. Won't be needing 4000 dpi


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> 
> Where would you stick the plastic?




Use 1 piece of each side for best results. You have to experiment with this. It has to be very thin, or the wheel won't move at all.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No, I wouldn't say "the 3310 is better than the 3366". I say "the implementation of the 3310 in the KPM is better than the g502".
> 
> Other 3310 mice I tested like the rival, avior7000 (early firmware), and FK1, were all worse than the 3366.
> 
> It really depends on how each company implements the sensor in their mouse.
> 
> The 3090 aurora feels much better than the 3090 in the FK.
> 
> Also, I didn't like the KPM shape at all. The FK1 shape is vastly better (just too thin for me), but the FK1 3310 implementation is worse than the KPM's.


my FK1 and Avior 7000 with the 3.38fw feel better than the 3090 in the Aurora, I'm not sure how/why you think its better than either of these implementations.

I'll give it to bst the 3090 he implemented feels more raw than previous 3090 (and to your point does feel better than the vanilla FK 3090 but who uses that thing anymore?) mice I own/used but its not nicer than 3310/AM010(G302). not even close.

the AM010 in my G302 feels leaps and bounds more raw and responsive than the Aurora 3090 but I also don't play FPS so any short comings from the sensor, like max pcs (which apparently is low on the AM010) doesn't affect me like it does low sensitivity fps players.

I did end up warming to the Aurora after playing a bunch of hours with it and after I think 2 or 3 hours (of intense clicking in SC2/DotA) the left mouse button gave out and no longer clicks, so thats gg on this mouse for me.


----------



## nyshak

The FK1 uses the 3310 So why even compare it to the Aurora? Ofc they will feel different. The Avior uses the 3310 as well AFAIK.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> my FK1 and Avior 7000 with the 3.38fw feel better than the 3090 in the Aurora, I'm not sure how/why you think its better than either of these implementations.
> 
> I'll give it to bst the 3090 he implemented feels more raw than previous 3090 (and to your point does feel better than the vanilla FK 3090 but who uses that thing anymore?) mice I own/used but its not nicer than 3310/AM010(G302). not even close.
> 
> the AM010 in my G302 feels leaps and bounds more raw and responsive than the Aurora 3090 *but I also don't play FPS* so any short comings from the sensor, like max pcs (which apparently is low on the AM010) doesn't affect me like it does low sensitivity fps players.
> 
> I did end up warming to the Aurora after playing a bunch of hours with it and after I think 2 or 3 hours (of intense clicking in SC2/DotA) the left mouse button gave out and no longer clicks, so thats gg on this mouse for me.


Welp. That's the crux of the issue.

Pretty much all mice feel the same in non-3D environments. The original FK is the only mouse I've used that felt significantly flawed in a 2D environment.

If you're only using mice in non-3D games it's important to specify that each time.

It's like buying a car but not driving it out of the lot and then saying "yea, seemed great".


----------



## woll3

That Elitism.

Where is R0ach when you actually need him, i want to see those two going at each other.

Fact is that different Sensitivities and different Environments(and even the different Games in them) need or enable different compromises if you have to compromise.


----------



## Ickz

Got mine today.

- Uneven lmb/rmb like most others, but luckily I couldn't feel a huge difference. Still gonna take it apart and try to fix.
- Switches felt closer to huanos than omrons to me.
- Scroll wheel is a joke. Almost no discernable notches at all.
- Cable isn't as bad as I thought it would be, but not good at all. Better than the g402 at least.
- Side buttons are a tad too small for my tastes.
- Shape is awesome. Love the angle of the sides and the grainy plastic. Effortless to pick up.
- Box/site shows 5 default dpi steps, but only has 3. Seem to be 800/1600/3200
- Too afraid to install software because of reports of it breaking mice.


----------



## Dreyka

I've found that the default mouse feet are so thin that I can feel the mouse scraping against the cloth surface. Stuck another layer of feet underneath and it has helped. I'm really beginning to love the shape for a fingertip grip even though it isn't as good as the Mico. Mico has other problems though.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ickz*
> 
> Got mine today.
> 
> - Too afraid to install software because of reports of it breaking mice.


Don't be, just install the software to customize your settings which will be saved automatically to the mouse then un-install the software.

It becomes a very NICE mouse after you customize it for your own usage - simply superb







.


----------



## mtzgr

Mine arrived in Ohio on Friday, I preordered from the website.

*Packaging* - Was expecting it to be really bad based on posts here but you guys are crazy. It's on par with what you would find at Microcenter (EVGA, Gigabyte, Corsair, etc.).
*Build Quality* - Decent, haven't experienced the problems others have. Some rough edges on the plastic underneath the buttons, but not really an issue.
*Sensor* - Nice and responsive, no issues. I didn't install software, played with 800dpi on a QcK.
*Shape* - Really thin. I'm a huge fan of ambi mice like the Sensei but I can't use this comfortably. My grip is something between palm and fingertip, and I can't control this mouse well unless I'm clawing it tightly. I play with 29cm/360 which is something to consider.
*Texture* - Rough plastic on the sides, not a huge fan. The rubber coating on top is pretty nice, keeps the mouse feeling dry. Should have been used on the entire mouse.
*Buttons* - M1/M2/Side buttons feel good. Nicely defined clicks, low actuation. M3 is almost nonexistent and feels awkward. I've had no issue using it at all, but there's not enough travel.
*Scroll Wheel* - People are saying it's bad, but personally I like it. Yes the notches aren't well defined but I don't find this to be a problem, the action is very nice.
*Cable* - Cord sucks, but it doesn't really impede movement because the mouse is so light.
*Mousefeet* - Suck.
*Lighting* - Really nice if you're into lights.

Pretty good first attempt from bst. I'd say it's basically on par with the G100s, with better buttons and scroll wheel. Too small and thin for me though. Objectively I would value it closer to $40 than $60, but taking the indie nature of the project into account I think it's fair.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> *Shape* - Really thin. I'm a huge fan of ambi mice like the Sensei but I can't use this comfortably. My grip is something between palm and fingertip, and I can't control this mouse well unless I'm clawing it tightly. I play with 29cm/360 which is something to consider.
> 
> Too small and thin for me though.


Please take note of this @bst. So many mice have come out recently that are way too thin.

There are plenty of fingertip only and claw grip only and palm grip only mice.

There are almost 0 useable mice for all 3 grips. A thicker aurora or thicker FK1 would be perfect for all 3 grips for the vast majority of people.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> That Elitism.
> 
> Where is R0ach when you actually need him, i want to see those two going at each other.
> 
> Fact is that different Sensitivities and different Environments(and even the different Games in them) need or enable different compromises if you have to compromise.


BTW, I'm assuming you were referring to me, but what I said has nothing to do with elitism.

I play SC2 as well as CS. But I would never bother testing a sensor in SC2. I'd only use that game to test shape, weight, weight balance, etc. for fingertip grip. But I've never gotten to that point yet. Because if a mouse doesn't perform in FPS games I have no use for it.

I wouldn't even need a gaming mouse if not for FPS games. I know some people buy these ridiculous 25 button gaming mice, but other than that there is really no need for gaming mice in non-FPS games. Everything you would need for a non-fps game could be found in a non-gaming mouse.

If I only played non-fps games I'd be using something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Dell-Black-Optical-Mouse-Scroll/dp/B004HFFI2O?tag=tealiq-20

Only reason I bought a gaming mouse to start with was for the higher malfunction speed needed in FPS games.

FYI how a sensor performs in 2d environments is usually completely different than how it performs in 3d (fps) environments. You can't properly test a sensor in just 2d environments. 3d is like a magnifying glass IMO. Amplifies any shortcomings.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> BTW, I'm assuming you were referring to me, but what I said has nothing to do with elitism.


It certainly is elitistic, even if it is not intended.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I play SC2 as well as CS. But I would never bother testing a sensor in SC2. I'd only use that game to test shape, weight, weight balance, etc. for fingertip grip. But I've never gotten to that point yet. Because if a mouse doesn't perform in FPS games I have no use for it.


So those factors arent part of a mouse? Nobody in a 2d environment should pick a gaming mouse for shape or weight because the sensor of office mice is good enough?

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I wouldn't even need a gaming mouse if not for FPS games. I know some people buy these ridiculous 25 button gaming mice, but other than that there is really no need for gaming mice in non-FPS games. Everything you would need for a non-fps game could be found in a non-gaming mouse.
> 
> If I only played non-fps games I'd be using something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Dell-Black-Optical-Mouse-Scroll/dp/B004HFFI2O?tag=tealiq-20


So nobody in a 2d environment can enjoy a good jitterfree cursorpath? Or adjustable CPI?

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> FYI how a sensor performs in 2d environments is usually completely different than how it performs in 3d (fps) environments. You can't properly test a sensor in just 2d environments. 3d is like a magnifying glass IMO. Amplifies any shortcomings.


And depending on Sensitivitysettings it can also mask certain shortcomings(jitter for example). As said players of different Games and different types are able to do different compromises, i cant use any MLT04 because i simply dont want to go to lan and be stuck with 125hz, a player with higher sensitivity might be able to make that tradeoff, a sc2 player might choose an Optical Mini over any Gamingmouse just because of the shape, another one might not be able to because he prefers 650(or whatever) cpi. Differences in Responsiveness can be felt regardless of the game someone plays, altough one might choose a mouse that is less responsive because of the malfunction speed, so on and so forth.

Also technically the Sensor performs the same regardless of environment.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

The point is you can find those things in non-gaming mice.


----------



## CookieBook

All mousepads are the same, amiright?


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The point is you can find those things in non-gaming mice.


 Do I need to spell out the importance of being able to change CPI in a 2D environment because you can't do that on office mice. It's just plain obvious why wouldn't want to use an office mouse.


----------



## Johan450

Obviously sensor performance isn't the most important thing in sc2, but saying its irrelevant or doesn't matter at all is just silly.
Imagine splitting marines with less than 1m/s or just trying to use camera keys to inject. Try to play dota/lol with tons of inconsistent acceleration.

"Pretty much all mice feel the same in non-3D environments" Wat... I can tell apart the kana v2 and the ninox sensor by boxing units.

Can you point me in the direction of a few "non-gaming" mice that are decent in-terms of size, weight and switches, genially curious because I haven't found any that are still in production.

Also your analogy comes of as incredibly elitist.


----------



## Xanatos

Regarding the main buttons, it seems the AQL is too lax.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Do I need to spell out the importance of being able to change CPI in a 2D environment because you can't do that on office mice. It's just plain obvious why wouldn't want to use an office mouse.


I have never ever seen the point of changing my dpi on the fly, aside from games which had down right stupid implementations to begin with.

If a game does this correctly, I'm a 1 DPI and 1 sens kind of man, for consistency's sake.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I have never ever seen the point of changing my dpi on the fly, aside from games which had down right stupid implementations to begin with.
> 
> If a game does this correctly, I'm a 1 DPI and 1 sens kind of man, for consistency's sake.


He meant change CPI to a preferred value, like not 400 or 800 but maybe 650. You can't do that on office mice and it is the only sensitivity you have for 2D games.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> He meant change CPI to a preferred value, like not 400 or 800 but maybe 650. You can't do that on office mice and it is the only sensitivity you have for 2D games.


Oh I see. Yeah I read something about that a few years ago, about the whole messed up sensitivity in SC2.

I still stick with my initial line of thought towards manufacturers tbh to cater to everyone:

Design 2 firmwares
1 focuses on features
1 focuses on performance
Performance variant makes certain options in the driver's settings page unavailable or disabled if necessary, discarding functionality for performance.
For "sales" and "support" concerns, load it with the "feature firmware" by default, us enthusiasts will find our way to your website for the other one...
Oh and fyi, ever since the coolermaster "fail" with the LED's affecting sensor performance, I always disable them on any mouse.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: CorruptBE



Originally Posted by *CorruptBE* 

Oh I see. Yeah I read something about that a few years ago, about the whole messed up sensitivity in SC2.

I still stick with my initial line of thought towards manufacturers tbh to cater to everyone:

Design 2 firmwares
1 focuses on features
1 focuses on performance
Performance variant makes certain options in the driver's settings page unavailable or disabled if necessary, discarding functionality for performance.
For "sales" and "support" concerns, load it with the "feature firmware" by default, us enthusiasts will find our way to your website for the other one...
Oh and fyi, ever since the coolermaster "fail" with the LED's affecting sensor performance, I always disable them on any mouse.



The assumption here is that disabling "features" will improve performance and I don't think that is a good assumption to make. It's something that the firmware developer should decide if it will make any difference and I really don't think it's a good idea to release placebo "performance" firmware.



Spoiler: Quote: Ino



Originally Posted by *Ino.* 

He meant change CPI to a preferred value, like not 400 or 800 but maybe 650. You can't do that on office mice and it is the only sensitivity you have for 2D games.



I'm glad someone else understands why being able to change CPI in small increments is actually important. FPS tunnel vision at the expense of MOBA/RTS is not good.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Do I need to spell out the importance of being able to change CPI in a 2D environment because you can't do that on office mice. It's just plain obvious why wouldn't want to use an office mouse.


No, look I agree with that. It's one of the things I'm looking forward to by upgrading from my 3.0. But that is a really new development in gaming mice.

I was referring to not such recent times. I honestly don't know what's in non-gaming mice these days. I haven't looked into it at all.

BTW, *@everyone*, I was thinking it would be nice to have two dpi buttons on the mouse that increased or decreased the DPI by 50. Maybe this could be adjusted in drivers and changed between that and set dpi settings. Because otherwise it would be fairly tedious to be playing a 2d game and constantly alt tabbing to adjust by 50dpi till you find the setting you're looking for.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johan450*
> 
> Can you point me in the direction of a few "non-gaming" mice that are decent in-terms of size, weight and switches, genially curious because I haven't found any that are still in production.


That random dell mouse I linked to was one I just happened to use at a local library that felt really good for fingertip grip. It felt better (shape is similar) build quality-wise than my aurora, but since it's a 3 button mouse it's useless to me.

But I haven't looked into non-gaming mice at all.


----------



## paers

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> The assumption here is that disabling "features" will improve performance and I don't think that is a good assumption to make.


My assumption is that he wouldn't be that stupid.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Performance variant makes certain options in the driver's settings page unavailable or disabled if necessary, discarding functionality for performance.


Quote:


> _*if*_


The way I read it, which I find way more reasonable, is that the potential performance impact of every non-essential fw feature should be evaluated and performance fw should be released if such features are found. As opposed to, you know, stuffing the firmware full of mostly useless **** in hopes of impressing "reviewers" and assuming nobody will notice. I don't know if it's just me but I can't equate design with release.

Oh, and I don't think anyone would be opposed to a bindable +/- native dpi step amount if it can be done without going full clown cursor.


----------



## Johan450

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> nd changed between that and set dpi settings. Because otherwise it would be fairly tedious to be playing a 2d game and constantly alt tabbing to adjust by 50dpi till you find the setting you're looking for.
> That random dell mouse I linked to was one I just happened to use at a local library that felt really good for fingertip grip. It felt better (shape is similar) build quality-wise than my aurora, but since it's a 3 button mouse it's useless to me.
> 
> But I haven't looked into non-gaming mice at all.


That's the thing though, there doesn't seem to be any "non-gaming" with decent quality. (That are currently in production.)
The dell mouse you linked, I could make that malfunction by just moving to the other side of the screen at school. Switches break easily and they just go bad after being used for more than a year.
If you can't see why a mouse with higher quality than a cheepo stock mouse can be beneficial to RTS then I'm really curious as to what level you play starcraft at.
(basing this of "but other than that there is really no need for gaming mice in non-FPS games")
Also instead of having a button for dpi toggling I think the way zowie did it for the mico was very intelligent with the scrollwheel.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: MaximilianKohler



Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler* 

No, look I agree with that. It's one of the things I'm looking forward to by upgrading from my 3.0. But that is a really new development in gaming mice.

I was referring to not such recent times. I honestly don't know what's in non-gaming mice these days. I haven't looked into it at all.

BTW, *@everyone*, I was thinking it would be nice to have two dpi buttons on the mouse that increased or decreased the DPI by 50. Maybe this could be adjusted in drivers and changed between that and set dpi settings. Because otherwise it would be fairly tedious to be playing a 2d game and constantly alt tabbing to adjust by 50dpi till you find the setting you're looking for.
That random dell mouse I linked to was one I just happened to use at a local library that felt really good for fingertip grip. It felt better (shape is similar) build quality-wise than my aurora, but since it's a 3 button mouse it's useless to me.

But I haven't looked into non-gaming mice at all.



Logitech office mice are about 1100cpi now. As the average desktop resolution increases so does the CPI of office mice. Otherwise, you end up in a situation where you're using a 400cpi mouse on a 2160p monitor which means large hand movements to move the cursor around the desktop. I really don't know how some people with their WMO are able to do that.

I would be happy with being able to adjust CPI up and down in that manner but you'd have to be able to set presets. For example, change the default CPI from 400/800 to 450/1050cpi and then have a button which would toggle between those two new settings.

I'm also continuously irked by how nice some office mice are for a fingertip grip. Shame it's so hard to find gaming mice with those classic shapes.



Spoiler: Quote: paers



Originally Posted by *paers* 

My assumption is that he wouldn't be that stupid.

The way I read it, which I find way more reasonable, is that the potential performance impact of every non-essential fw feature should be evaluated and performance fw should be released if such features are found. As opposed to, you know, stuffing the firmware full of mostly useless **** in hopes of impressing "reviewers" and assuming nobody will notice. I don't know if it's just me but I can't equate design with release.

Oh, and I don't think anyone would be opposed to a bindable +/- native dpi step amount if it can be done without going full clown cursor.



Logitech mice are full of "useless" features and yet their performance is really good. I'm not opposed to firmware that has a lot of stuff removed but I know that inevitably everyone is going to start lauding one firmware due to expectation bias of one performing better than the other.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johan450*
> 
> Also instead of having a button for dpi toggling I think the way zowie did it for the mico was very intelligent with the scrollwheel.


Oh, that is a really good idea. I didn't know they did that. Hopefully every mouse does that from here on.

https://www.facebook.com/ZOWIEGEAR/posts/202384756469064

@FinalmouseJude it would be great if you guys would do something like that. Either by holding the DPI button and scrolling, or the left and right click like the mico.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paers*
> 
> My assumption is that he wouldn't be that stupid.
> 
> The way I read it, which I find way more reasonable, is that the potential performance impact of every non-essential fw feature should be evaluated and performance fw should be released if such features are found. As opposed to, you know, stuffing the firmware full of mostly useless **** in hopes of impressing "reviewers" and assuming nobody will notice. I don't know if it's just me but I can't equate design with release.
> 
> Oh, and I don't think anyone would be opposed to a bindable +/- native dpi step amount if it can be done without going full clown cursor.


Yup, IF

Basically the performance variant has to keep only a few basic principles in mind:


A minimum of dpi levels: 400/800/1600 preferable (these 3 would pretty much cover anyone with a "sensible" sensitivity imo)
Maximize (raw!!) precision
Maximize responsiveness
Maximize PCS (though I think we say that past 5 m/s noone cares anymore...)
Every other option can be simply discarded IF necessary (if there's a gain basically).

To minimize cost, they keep the same driver but if the driver reads this firmware version, it simply "greys out" the options that have been discarded.

Odds are these firmwares would make alot of 3090 variants jitter like hell on 4000 dpi but... well seriously, 4000 dpi? Maybe we'll care in a few years when our monitors reach a gazillion pixels.

Oh FYI, their dpi might be higher these days, but office mice are... well rather horrible. You can make them malfunction on the freaking desktop, the prediction is over 9000 (can't even select text properly, crap just snaps on the wrong letter every time due to it) and they jitter on half the surfaces as well...

That's the average "office" mouse you get at work.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> EDIT#2: Still the question if its possible to have my M1 feel like my M2, maybe you Gigantoad of somebody else can help me out with this:
> 
> The left button was from the beginning lower than the right button shell part, but the right button is very easy to click, has more travel and is very crisp.
> Is it possible to bend the sheel part of M1 to be like M2?
> Because it seems that in your case it was the other way around (?), you wanted to lower the button heigh, right?
> 
> About the M1 and M2 shell part, i was too worried braking something and didnt know where to start. Like do i pull it first on the front of the mouse (above the switch) or do i try to push those pins out and pull the 2 clips somehow?
> 
> How exactly did you do it? =)
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Sorry for the late reply. Glad you got it fixed. Yes you can get the buttons feel the same, they will stay at roughly the same uneven height though so don't worry about that. My left is still higher but same feel as right. I imagine that it doesn't matter whether you bend one button down or the other up, that's up to you.

As for getting the button off, I don't have a fool proof method (as I mentoned I did break stuff). After some tries it seems best to lift up the front until that jumps out, then push back while lifting a little to get it off completely.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Sorry for the late reply. Glad you got it fixed. Yes you can get the buttons feel the same, they will stay at roughly the same uneven height though so don't worry about that. My left is still higher but same feel as right. I imagine that it doesn't matter whether you bend one button down or the other up, that's up to you.
> 
> As for getting the button off, I don't have a fool proof method (as I mentoned I did break stuff). After some tries it seems best to lift up the front until that jumps out, then push back while lifting a little to get it off completely.


Hey, thanks for the reply!
I will try this again next time. Fortunately its not too bad atm. It just feels like M1 hits the lower shell a little to early, whereas M2 seems to have the right amount of height and/or tension. So i think i ll try to bend my M1 shell part slightly upwards and will report back if i succeeded.^^


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Please take note of this @bst. So many mice have come out recently that are way too thin.
> 
> There are plenty of fingertip only and claw grip only and palm grip only mice.
> 
> There are almost 0 useable mice for all 3 grips. A thicker aurora or thicker FK1 would be perfect for all 3 grips for the vast majority of people.


I'm really not sure if i'm right, but maybe he wasn't allowed to change the shape at all, as far as the rumor is true that the shape

is made by i'rocks.

After all i think its odd that the sensorhole of the shape is not in line of the sensor.

Maybe the original i'rocks mouse has the sensor more to the front (?) Just speculation.


----------



## turnschuh

I tried some stuff with my Aurora, found out some interesting things regarding mouse feet height, malfunctioning and feet position.

The first thing was that i took of the original feet, and filed down the indentations (or the things where the feet are placed in) a little with sandpaper which didnt look very nice or even but i just put the original feet back on and on top of them my WMO glides from Steelseries.
The glide overall was better than before and surprisingly the mouse didnt malfunction anymore when doing fast swipes or 180s in GO. My mousepad is a standart black qck+.
I dont know how this works but the increased height seemed to do the trick. Only downside was that i lost about 50 dpi with that.

After that i took of both feet again, filed down the indentations completely and tried to do it more even, then just used the WMO feet instead of two glides stacked.
Now the occasional malfunction came back when doing fast swipes (looking more to the ground after a swipe kind of malfunction).

So today i did the following:
I glued my "Steelseries MS Glides" on a cut out sheet of the thin plastic of the Aurora packaging and used double-sided tape to glue them back on the mouse.
The height of "the new feet" is around 1.0 - 1.2 mm.
This time i also placed them more in the way they are placed on the WMO.
Like this:



It doesnt look that way on the pic but the bottom shell is almost even with where the mouse feet indentations were/are.

After playing an hour of FFA DM, i didnt get the mouse malfunctioning anymore and the glide is much better i find.
I think the positioning of the upper feet like on the WMO is much better for movement on the X-Axis or for wrist movement.
Not sure about the lower feet positioning though. The DPI is around 350/700 for me now but that doesnt bother me.

TL;DR:

- Added mousefeet height helped to not let the Aurora malfunction again.
- Feet positioning like on the WMO feels a lot better (atleast for me).

So if your Aurora malfunctions with your mouse + mousepad setup, try to add height to your feet or stack them.


----------



## CorruptBE

For me, balance and overall glide has improved a lot after adding another skate just below the 2 at the back of the mouse. Stopped the mild occasional tilting towards the back of the mouse.


----------



## acid_reptile

@turnschuh

+1

More posts like this pls. Lets get the best out of the aurora.

btw, i did the same to the aurora as i did to my logitech G3. I gave it a more glossy finish on the sides with scotch tape + killed all functions and possible movement of the sidebuttons. Both personal preference of course. I liked the glossy plastic and no sidebuttons on the G1.

I don't really recommend to do it though. The scotch tape wears off in no time, unless you are a girl.


----------



## turnschuh

Thank you, glad you liked my post









Fortunately i like the side texture on the aurora, so i dont need to mod it with scotch tape.^^
Also, did you just take out the side buttons or also the upper PCB and dont need the dpi change button? Couldnt imagine how light this mouse would be without lol.


----------



## acid_reptile

Yes i took the upper PCB out. Tried it at first, not bcs the mouse was to heavy, but bcs of the weight balancing. I think it feels slightly better without it. But that might be placebo. To make sure i would have to put it back in. So better try it for yourself. You can change the dpi mode in software, takes 1 or 2 seconds.
I will do a G1 mod anyway. It just wont be as easy as a WMO mod. Mouse1 fits, as far as i can tell. Unfortunaly the aurora mousewheel is indeed really low. It gets even lower within the G1 shape.I have to find a way to make it bigger, or to replace it completly. The G1 i ordered didn't arrive yet. Still don't know when i will find the motivation to do it anyway, but if it works out i'll use the tiny 1 button PCB from the G1 to switch DPI modes.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> I will do a G1 mod anyway. It just wont be as easy as a WMO mod. Mouse1 fits, as far as i can tell. Unfortunaly the aurora mousewheel is indeed really low. It gets even lower within the G1 shape.I have to find a way to make it bigger, or to replace it completly. The G1 i ordered didn't arrive yet. Still don't know when i will find the motivation to do it anyway, but if it works out i'll use the tiny 1 button PCB from the G1 to switch DPI modes.


PLEASE show us some pics of your modification because putting this pcb inside the ancient G1 would be a purposeful goal, much applauded here on OCN


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> ...G1 would be a purposeful goal, much applauded here on OCN


Don't think so. Show me a single G1 mod on OCN







I remember a mx518 modded into a G3 or something like that, but can't remember how it worked out.


----------



## Ino.

Just got mine, it's a bit underwhelming to say the least. The only good thing so far to me is the shape and the coating, but the sensor performance is so 2012









Don't think I'll do a full review at this point in time, so I might just leave these here:





Sure, it's good for the price, but I can't see myself using it over the other options I have available right now.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Sure, it's good for the price *if you live in Europe*, but I can't see myself using it over the other options I have available right now.


fixed


----------



## chrispow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Sorry for the late reply. Glad you got it fixed. Yes you can get the buttons feel the same, they will stay at roughly the same uneven height though so don't worry about that. My left is still higher but same feel as right. I imagine that it doesn't matter whether you bend one button down or the other up, that's up to you.
> 
> As for getting the button off, I don't have a fool proof method (as I mentoned I did break stuff). After some tries it seems best to lift up the front until that jumps out, then push back while lifting a little to get it off completely.


I'm wondering exactly how to take the shell off after unscrewing the screw. I'm apparently incompetent and don't want to break anything. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrispow*
> 
> I'm wondering exactly how to take the shell off after unscrewing the screw. I'm apparently incompetent and don't want to break anything. Thanks in advance.


Just lift the back a little and pull back. Needs a bit of force.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> fixed


Eh, it's $45 on amazon in the US, that's pretty reasonable.


----------



## CorruptBE

Any tutorials or decent pictures for the WMO mod?

My mind is currently in a bit of a debate: I prefer the Aurora's sensor and responsive clicks, but I also prefer my mouse to have a bit more of a rounded butt (aka FK2).

the WMO mod could solve this and if I recall from ESReality, it was possible to put this PCB into the WMO.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Eh, it's $45 on amazon in the US, that's pretty reasonable.


ah didnt know it was on amazon for that cheap, sorry, bitter pre-order poster here!
paid $60 in October, didn't receive until end of December and the left mouse button failed after 2 hours of use.
id say its not even worth the $45

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Any tutorials or decent pictures for the WMO mod?
> 
> My mind is currently in a bit of a debate: I prefer the Aurora's sensor and responsive clicks, but I also prefer my mouse to have a bit more of a rounded butt (aka FK2).
> 
> the WMO mod could solve this and if I recall from ESReality, it was possible to put this PCB into the WMO.


http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/

its in the OP at the bottom


----------



## povohat

Here's my WMOra pics
http://drok-radnik.com/junk/wmora_mod/


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Here's my WMOra pics
> http://drok-radnik.com/junk/wmora_mod/


Sweet,

That's what I needed, some teardown pics. Because a picture says more then a 1000 words. +rep

Now I need to find a WMO for a shell (didn't dislike the shell, but never owned one due to the malfunction speed being to low for me).


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Just got mine, it's a bit underwhelming to say the least. The only good thing so far to me is the shape and the coating, but the sensor performance is so 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't think I'll do a full review at this point in time, so I might just leave these here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, it's good for the price, but I can't see myself using it over the other options I have available right now.


Hey the GOD r0ach uses kanav2 so the sensor can only be godlike.


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Sweet,
> 
> That's what I needed, some teardown pics. Because a picture says more then a 1000 words. +rep
> 
> Now I need to find a WMO for a shell (didn't dislike the shell, but never owned one due to the malfunction speed being to low for me).


BST has said that the fake WMOs are a lot easier to mod, because they already have a nice lens tray and wheel cradle. I have already ordered a couple of WMOs that appear to be fake from aliexpress. If they turn out to be the nice ones for modding, i'll let people know. If anyone out there is unlucky enough to have ordered a fake WMO like the ones in BST's post, I'm sure you could sell them on to people like myself.


----------



## CorruptBE

Woah...

Where would I get these fake ones then and how can I tell them apart









(especially since I'm really just buying them for the shell anyways xD)

Might also give it a go in a Zowie AM shell, got one that's messed up inside anyways.

EDIT:

You probably meant these:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fashion-Microsoft-Wheel-Optical-USB-Compatible-Mouse-Black-saving-time-free-shipping/814201296.html

Quite cheap too.


----------



## ragemuffin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Just got mine, it's a bit underwhelming to say the least. The only good thing so far to me is the shape and the coating, but the sensor performance is so 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't think I'll do a full review at this point in time, so I might just leave these here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, it's good for the price, but I can't see myself using it over the other options I have available right now.


How were you able to reach those malfunction speeds?
Did you get these results out of the box or if not, what were your settings for these?

I've been having problems and I've posted about it on the ESReality thread as well:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2699620/re-new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2700083

I really like the mouse, I just wish I can play CS:GO without worrying about swiping too fast


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrispow*
> 
> I'm wondering exactly how to take the shell off after unscrewing the screw. I'm apparently incompetent and don't want to break anything. Thanks in advance.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Just lift the back a little and pull back. Needs a bit of force.


yea this
and while pulling it back, pull it also to the left and right repeatedly, it should come off easily.
(if we are speaking about how to get the upper shell part off or how to open the mouse^^)
it works the same when closing it again, just the other way around.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> How were you able to reach those malfunction speeds?
> Did you get these results out of the box or if not, what were your settings for these?
> 
> I've been having problems and I've posted about it on the ESReality thread as well:
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2699620/re-new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2700083
> 
> I really like the mouse, I just wish I can play CS:GO without worrying about swiping too fast


Did you try adding mouse feet? That other guy said it fixed it for him.


----------



## turnschuh

Wanted to suggest that too but then i saw that he "broke" his mouse through the software. only a firmware reset tool would help i think :/

would also be interested in such a tool because i want to see if i can fix that my mouse cursor moves to the upper right corner while having the mouse lifted up 1-2mm high over the pad, in the "jitter-zone". no problem for me though. just curious.


----------



## chrispow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Here's my WMOra pics
> http://drok-radnik.com/junk/wmora_mod/


I think I'm in love.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrispow*
> 
> I think I'm in love.


Yeah, anyone that can disembowel a WMO so successfully like this warms my nether regions like nothing else







.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> How were you able to reach those malfunction speeds?
> Did you get these results out of the box or if not, what were your settings for these?
> 
> I've been having problems and I've posted about it on the ESReality thread as well:
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2699620/re-new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2700083
> 
> I really like the mouse, I just wish I can play CS:GO without worrying about swiping too fast


It tracked up to 4.2 m/s out of the box at 500 Hz. I installed the software to set to 1000 Hz and disable all CPI steps other than 400 and then did the test above.


----------



## povohat

Posted this on ESR, I'd like to see what you guys have to say about it too!

I've been investigating this Aurora button issue, and why it is so much harder to sync the buttons for rocket jumping. I tested the button latency against the G100S, and it is only about 3ms slower. The interesting part is when you test the mice on their own in the Bloody Mouse Shooting Speed Test.

When I test the G100S on its own, the difference between left and right click is anywhere from 0-10ms generally. I accept that I am human and cannot press both buttons at the same time all the time in my natural grip.

However, when I test the Aurora on its own, I either get a value of 0ms or >53.9ms. I find it strange that I cannot get a click timing offset less than this value. It appears as though there is some kind of firmware issue causing delayed clicks when they are not synced within a very tight margin.

http://drok-radnik.com/junk/aurora_buttondelay.png

Would be nice if somebody else could verify these results, as it might just be an issue on some units (or just mine)


----------



## thorsteNN

anybody from germany, who ordered via the very first drop at massdrop.com, already got his aurora?

btw. logitech g100s is on sale in logitechs official shop (atleast on the german site, 19,95€ + free shipping)


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thorsteNN*
> 
> anybody from germany, who ordered via the very first drop at massdrop.com, already got his aurora?
> 
> btw. logitech g100s is on sale in logitechs official shop (atleast on the german site, 19,95€ + free shipping)


Got mine yesterday


----------



## thorsteNN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Got mine yesterday


mh, okay! thanks for the info.
gonna wait some days then, i guess.
was it UPS or what?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thorsteNN*
> 
> mh, okay! thanks for the info.
> gonna wait some days then, i guess.
> was it UPS or what?


Nope, DHL Päckchen, so it didn't even need a signature. It was actually dropped off at a neighbor with no letter telling me so, he was just kind enough to come over right when he saw me.


----------



## resis

Received mine yesterday.

First impression is good. Build quality is not great, but not bad (reminds me CM Recon). Cord isn't as bad as I feared, but would fit such a light mouse much better if it was much lighter. Feet are too thin, but I put the second feet on top of them and it's better now and LOD lower (had to do the same with the FK). Sidebuttons are firm, but the main buttons are a bit shaky. Wheel isn't great, but okay for me, a bit too shaky.

Mouse looks way more slick in person than on pictures. With glow on it reminds me a lot of the Razer Diamondback. I have orange light (10,2,0) and it looks really nice, I wish though to have opaque sides and no light in the back, only a glowing wheel.

Issues I encountered so far is that if I log off and back in, the lights flicker in other colour and cursor doesn't move for a moment, then DPI goes to 400 (I have it as lowest DPI, but use 800). Buttons don't wake up PC from hibernation, but the DPI button does (no real issue). Cord should have been much lighter and flexible.

I have no main buttons issue where one button is higher, they're both same and feel same for the most part. Buttons are not as light to click as I expected. Actually closer to my FK. I even think they're harder to hold pressed. Initially I had the problem that I unintentionally released them because I failed to keep the pressure. I think I adjusted to it by now.

I'd say it's not a bad mouse. I need to test it in games though.


----------



## thorsteNN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Nope, DHL Päckchen, so it didn't even need a signature. It was actually dropped off at a neighbor with no letter telling me so, he was just kind enough to come over right when he saw me.


oh, okay. thanks for the infos Ino!


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It tracked up to 4.2 m/s out of the box at 500 Hz. I installed the software to set to 1000 Hz and disable all CPI steps other than 400 and then did the test above.


I managed to reach a little over 5 m/s on 800 dpi (that required effort though, "naturally" I can only reach about 4 m/s).

Alot of 3090 mice I've had often did better at 800 dpi, excluding the Zowies. ROCCAT Savu also consistently had a slightly higher PCS for me on 800 dpi (pretty much always around 4.8 m/s).


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> BST has said that the fake WMOs are a lot easier to mod, because they already have a nice lens tray and wheel cradle. I have already ordered a couple of WMOs that appear to be fake from aliexpress. If they turn out to be the nice ones for modding, i'll let people know. If anyone out there is unlucky enough to have ordered a fake WMO like the ones in BST's post, I'm sure you could sell them on to people like myself.


Cool, let us know how it turns out.

btw, its exactly the same with fake logitech G1's . They fit verry easy . No lense cutting needed and you can use the mousewheel holder like the one in bst's fake WMO pictures. I still have one or two laying around, but in a very bad condition. Used it for abyssus frankenmouse. But never used it as i didn't like the clicks. (I had to readjust the button clicker, or how u want to call it, inside the upper shell.) Back then i ordered a second one, after i found out how good they could be for modding. Then after my second order arrived the ebay seller disappeared, or didn't respond anymore. I don't think its possible to order fake G1's nowadays, as logitech relaunched the original G1 (at least in china) But if someone still knows where to get them. Let me know =)


----------



## CorruptBE

Opened it up for the first time:


When removing the top parts for the buttons: WARNING: release from BACK to FRONT, not the other way around or you'll break things
Zowie AM Cable: Massive improvement, adds to the "weightlessness" of this mouse
If someone can solve the M1 and M2's facing outwards instead of inwards, it could potentially be modded into Zowie shapes (FK1/2 & AM)
Overall the PCB design and 3090 implementation far exceed the designed shell imo, one of the best (if not the best) 3090's and a PCB that is very interesting to mod into other shells.

Mouse 4/5 issue (clicking occuring when pressing the side of the mouse) is unfixable. Seen this before with other mice. The "support" for these buttons is attached to the lower body. Can only be solved by attaching it to the TOP part of the body. A common mistake I've seen quite a few times in mice.

Scrollwheel support is thicker then Razer's, thus it will last longer before breaking off.

M1 / M2 molds (the 2 parts of the top shell) are not exactly equal I think (hard to tell but I could notice a few offsets in thickness, etc). So this could be rather a manufacturing issue then a design flaw (they're not a flawless mirror, more like 98 to 99%).


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Nope, DHL Päckchen, so it didn't even need a signature. It was actually dropped off at a neighbor with no letter telling me so, he was just kind enough to come over right when he saw me.


Also DHL and they just let the package near the door in the rain...

Funny thing is, that night I dreamt of receiving it and thus wasn't very surprised when I realized it arrived.


----------



## ragemuffin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Did you try adding mouse feet? That other guy said it fixed it for him.


I've tried stacking the spare mousefeet on top of the current mousefeet and putting one on the back.
I've also tried the tape fix, and both of these "solutions" did not solve the malfunction problems.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It tracked up to 4.2 m/s out of the box at 500 Hz. I installed the software to set to 1000 Hz and disable all CPI steps other than 400 and then did the test above.


Thank you Ino.
It seems I am out of options until a miracle comes along.
Back to my Deathadder 2013 I guess


----------



## iBzzz

With the WMO mod is there no way to maintain the DPI switch? I frequently change between 400 and 1600 (depending what I'm doing).

Miss my WMO and very tempted to risk buying another Aurura and trying the mod if the buttons are still messed up.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> I've tried stacking the spare mousefeet on top of the current mousefeet and putting one on the back.
> I've also tried the tape fix, and both of these "solutions" did not solve the malfunction problems.


Yeah, just the supplied feet aren't enough, but they do help a bit. The more layers the better. If you have some kind of tape I would put a few layers of tape and then put the extra mouse feet on top of that.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iBzzz*
> 
> With the WMO mod is there no way to maintain the DPI switch? I frequently change between 400 and 1600 (depending what I'm doing).


I need some days off from work to be arsed to do it but I was planning on pasting it stuck inside somewhere and have a really really tiny hole in the WMO shell (similar to the holes in smartphones you need to push in to open the tray for the simcard).

Would be using 800 dpi most of the time but just in case I would be able to switch to 400/1600 for those "messed up" games.

I don't need an on-the-fly switch, but having the 400/800/1600 option is handy.

*About your malfunction problem:*

Try another mousepad (Savu, whilst doing 4.8 m/s, also had issues with certain surfaces)
If not ok then ---> Broken Aurora?? Mine doesn't malfunction at all.
(using Puretrak Talent)

Thunderbringer should get an Aurora tbh, he always does all kinds of mods that seem impossible.


----------



## Xanatos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Posted this on ESR, I'd like to see what you guys have to say about it too!
> 
> I've been investigating this Aurora button issue, and why it is so much harder to sync the buttons for rocket jumping. I tested the button latency against the G100S, and it is only about 3ms slower. The interesting part is when you test the mice on their own in the Bloody Mouse Shooting Speed Test.
> 
> When I test the G100S on its own, the difference between left and right click is anywhere from 0-10ms generally. I accept that I am human and cannot press both buttons at the same time all the time in my natural grip.
> 
> However, when I test the Aurora on its own, I either get a value of 0ms or >53.9ms. I find it strange that I cannot get a click timing offset less than this value. It appears as though there is some kind of firmware issue causing delayed clicks when they are not synced within a very tight margin.
> 
> http://drok-radnik.com/junk/aurora_buttondelay.png
> 
> Would be nice if somebody else could verify these results, as it might just be an issue on some units (or just mine)


can confirm similar results, but too lazy to post a pic. it's very strange.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> I've tried stacking the spare mousefeet on top of the current mousefeet and putting one on the back.
> I've also tried the tape fix, and both of these "solutions" did not solve the malfunction problems.


I think if your stuck at 0,6 m/s PCS Aurora there is no other chance then to wait for a firmware reset tool, its just a matter of time i think.
(Cant be that complicated for the one who programmed the software/firmware)
Anyways, i would get a replacement instead of waiting, or did you already contact bst personally (or the support) about this issue?


----------



## ragemuffin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, just the supplied feet aren't enough, but they do help a bit. The more layers the better. If you have some kind of tape I would put a few layers of tape and then put the extra mouse feet on top of that.


I'll try that and report the results.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> I think if your stuck at 0,6 m/s PCS Aurora there is no other chance then to wait for a firmware reset tool, its just a matter of time i think.
> (Cant be that complicated for the one who programmed the software/firmware)
> Anyways, i would get a replacement instead of waiting, or did you already contact the bst personally (or the support) about this issue?


I haven't contacted BST about it.
Considering I got the mouse via Massdrop, I don't know how I would go about it.

It's not a big deal, but it is such a shame to see a mouse I really liked to be put away in a box because it malfunctions at fairly low to moderate speeds.
I'll just try to compensate by adjusting my play in-game.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Got mine yesterday


Really? Still waiting for mine from pre-order lol. This is getting more and more rediculous.

Havn't even got an answer via Support-Ticket and order is still "Processing"









EDIT: Pre-ordered exactly 3 months ago today


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> I haven't contacted BST about it.
> Considering I got the mouse via Massdrop, I don't know how I would go about it.
> 
> It's not a big deal, but it is such a shame to see a mouse I really liked to be put away in a box because it malfunctions at fairly low to moderate speeds.
> I'll just try to compensate by adjusting my play in-game.


Humm, isnt it even easier to get a replacement when you ordered through massdrop?
Just contact them and they ll tell you what to do, or how to return the mouse.
I wouldnt adjust my play to such low malfunction speed..









Good luck!


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Thunderbringer should get an Aurora tbh, he always does all kinds of mods that seem impossible.


or "2ShellBonus" http://www.esreality.com/post/1414702/n-a/ (unfortunally pics don't work 2007 post)


----------



## resis

Hey people, is there a way to shut off the rear LEDs without to physically removing them? You see the LEDs in the rear are fixed, I could just cover them up, but they also eat power so why not to somehow deactivate them? I just don't want to physically remove them in case I need them back up.

Edit:
The heavy cable is the only thing that really lessens the enjoyment with an otherwise good mouse. So I put the cable of my AM on it. Less drag and mouse feels lighter now.

I also bent the buttons a bit and now they're lower and sit firm, if I touch them they don't shake, but I noticed that the right button is indeed lighter, maybe because I bent the right button too much and it applies more force on the switch by itself, or it's the switch. I'll probably swap the switches, because I'd prefer the left button to be lighter.

I put tape around the rear LEDs and put tape behind the logo, so there is no glow there, only in the front and the wheel. Looks much better.


----------



## acid_reptile

Yes disable them in the software. No magic.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Yes disable them in the software. No magic.


You can disable the rear LEDs separately? That's magic.


----------



## ragemuffin

Here are some of the results on trying to alleviate the malfunction problems.

Enotus Mouse Test

MouseTester


I also took some tips from both the ESReality thread and this thread as well, specifically from MaximilianKohler.
I stacked the mousefeet on top of each other (no tape in-between) and also applied a tape-fix.

Here are some pictures:


If anyone's having PCS/malfunction problems, try this out.
It has certainly made my weekend a lot more better


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> You can disable the rear LEDs separately? That's magic.


Yea sorry it was late. Black electrical tape.


----------



## resis

I put the second feet on and LOD is exactly like Zowie now. For me there is no need for taping the lens.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Yea sorry it was late. Black electrical tape.


Yeah I did that, but it would be nice to shut them down without to break things, like putting something on the metal rods to intercept the electricity and make the LEDs not glow. Or stuff.


----------



## chrispow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> Here are some of the results on trying to alleviate the malfunction problems.
> 
> If anyone's having PCS/malfunction problems, try this out.
> It has certainly made my weekend a lot more better


Still seems to me that you've got malfunctioning firmware/sensor/whatever. Unless your mousepad is the culprit, you should be hitting 4-5 m/s without any issues.

EDIT: So I took apart my mouse to have a look at the M1/M2 discrepancies and a squeaky mouse wheel. After fidgeting a bit with the button strips on the top shell, I realized that it wasn't properly in position and after clicking it in properly, the M1/M2 heights are now exactly the same. However, M1 and M2 still feel different in clicks. Am I crazy or are they different switches? My mouse didn't have the plastic "burn" on the shell as others have said theirs do.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Posted this on ESR, I'd like to see what you guys have to say about it too!
> 
> I've been investigating this Aurora button issue, and why it is so much harder to sync the buttons for rocket jumping. I tested the button latency against the G100S, and it is only about 3ms slower. The interesting part is when you test the mice on their own in the Bloody Mouse Shooting Speed Test.
> 
> When I test the G100S on its own, the difference between left and right click is anywhere from 0-10ms generally. I accept that I am human and cannot press both buttons at the same time all the time in my natural grip.
> 
> However, when I test the Aurora on its own, I either get a value of 0ms or >53.9ms. I find it strange that I cannot get a click timing offset less than this value. It appears as though there is some kind of firmware issue causing delayed clicks when they are not synced within a very tight margin.
> 
> http://drok-radnik.com/junk/aurora_buttondelay.png
> 
> Would be nice if somebody else could verify these results, as it might just be an issue on some units (or just mine)


I can confirm same thing as you.

Aurora vs Abyssus:

http://imgur.com/a/yHllK


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> Really? Still waiting for mine from pre-order lol. This is getting more and more rediculous.
> 
> Havn't even got an answer via Support-Ticket and order is still "Processing"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Pre-ordered exactly 3 months ago today


Guess what, my original order finally got delivered just now. Hence all the mice I've bought off BST has now been received in full.

I was like you thinking that I got gipped by him but now I'm very happy to see all my worries were definitely unfounded. He has supplied me with his 'gaming mice' and can safely say that all my orders were fulfilled.

BST has done something that no other individual has ever done here on OCN and ESR sites and that is to supply a mouse for the fanatical. Looking forward to his next release with the 3310 sensor







.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrispow*
> 
> EDIT: So I took apart my mouse to have a look at the M1/M2 discrepancies and a squeaky mouse wheel. After fidgeting a bit with the button strips on the top shell, I realized that it wasn't properly in position and after clicking it in properly, the M1/M2 heights are now exactly the same. However, M1 and M2 still feel different in clicks. Am I crazy or are they different switches? My mouse didn't have the plastic "burn" on the shell as others have said theirs do.


The seperate rubberized shells for the M1/M2 buttons aren't exactly equal, I noticed some offsets, but they're so small that I would need a seriously high res camera (and not my phone) to show them.

Don't worry about getting the "distance" equal... worry about getting your *CLICKS* equal.

I just hope for the next mouse he makes he has the balls to charge more but in turn beefs up the quality. I wouldn't mind paying € 60 as long as the performance is there with a high quality shell.

(if you want a good example BST, Mionix shells feel nice, though they have another issue, Mionix their weight is a little to high imo)


----------



## Creizai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Here's my WMOra pics
> http://drok-radnik.com/junk/wmora_mod/


I still can't figure out what you guys used for the scroll wheel holder. Any chance you could go more in depth? After loving this Aurora shell waaaaaay more than I thought I would it looks like I might have to buy a 2nd one in order to have a WMO-Aurora


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I just hope for the next mouse he makes he has the balls to charge more but in turn beefs up the quality. I wouldn't mind paying € 60 as long as the performance is there with a high quality shell.


He definitely needs to up the asking price on a better quality shell, I suspect he kept the price and quality low due to certain people complaining about paying more money on a mouse. Those same scumbags then went and bought G502's, DA Chroma's, Aviors, KPM's and FK2s, never heard any whinging about paying the price for those at all.

But heaps of protests if BST dared charge more than $50 for his, just absolute hypocrisy on a grand scale here.

Hoping BST stays the course and designs a better shell with a 3310 sensor, would like to see both a right handed design coupled with an ambidextrous one, two brilliant shapes for people who are right or left handed (very little love for the lefties in this world today).


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Creizai*
> 
> I still can't figure out what you guys used for the scroll wheel holder. Any chance you could go more in depth? After loving this Aurora shell waaaaaay more than I thought I would it looks like I might have to buy a 2nd one in order to have a WMO-Aurora


As per BST's recommendation, I used the spine of a DVD case
http://esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2699378


----------



## chrispow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> The seperate rubberized shells for the M1/M2 buttons aren't exactly equal, I noticed some offsets, but they're so small that I would need a seriously high res camera (and not my phone) to show them.
> 
> Don't worry about getting the "distance" equal... worry about getting your *CLICKS* equal.
> 
> I just hope for the next mouse he makes he has the balls to charge more but in turn beefs up the quality. I wouldn't mind paying € 60 as long as the performance is there with a high quality shell.
> 
> (if you want a good example BST, Mionix shells feel nice, though they have another issue, Mionix their weight is a little to high imo)


Indeed. It actually wasn't my intent to level the buttons, but noticed it after clicking it properly in place.


----------



## Elrick

Just out of interest, what type of mouse model feet is BST using on his current Aurora?

I heard he used IE 3.0 or 1.1 feet but not sure exactly which ones. Looking to buy some Hyperglides to use with his current model.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Hoping BST stays the course and designs a better shell with a 3310 sensor, would like to see both a right handed design coupled with an ambidextrous one, two brilliant shapes for people who are right or left handed (very little love for the lefties in this world today).


I hope he doesn't drop the Aurora shape though. It is the 2nd best shape I've ever used right after logitech S96.


----------



## Creizai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Just out of interest, what type of mouse model feet is BST using on his current Aurora?
> 
> I heard he used IE 3.0 or 1.1 feet but not sure exactly which ones. Looking to buy some Hyperglides to use with his current model.


One of the previous posters said MS-3 feet didn't work (1.1/IE3.0), I plan on busting out some sand paper and removing those edges and slapping them on anyway.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I hope he doesn't drop the Aurora shape though. It is the 2nd best shape I've ever used right after logitech S96.


Yeah I'm going to be honest I thought the shape would be absolute junk and bought it for the sole purpose of putting it into a wmo.

Would I change things? *Yes*
Is the shape better than the last 10 mouse I bought? *YES*

The only way I can see this mouse getting replaced as my DD is WMO-Aurora, ROG SICA, Logitech G102, or Logitech new g9x

*My current to do list:*

Fix Cable
MS-3 Hyperglides
Matte White Vinyl Top


----------



## MLJS54

I used this mouse for about 30 seconds before putting it back in the box and shipping it back to Amazon.

*The cable is absolutely horrendous.*


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MLJS54*
> 
> I used this mouse for about 30 seconds before putting it back in the box and shipping it back to Amazon.
> 
> *The cable is absolutely horrendous.*


Indeed, an absolute deal breaker. If I didn't like it enough to put my AM cord on it, it would have been on the way back.


----------



## iceskeleton

So did he give any reason for changing the cable? I thought it was always going to be a light flexible one like how zowie does it


----------



## resis

Change of plan on the way, as always, I guess, because of cheaper costs. I also expected thick feet, as he showed in pictures at some point, but we got thin ones. I also modded this by putting the second feet on top of them, otherwise the mouse would have not been usable once more.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iceskeleton*
> 
> So did he give any reason for changing the cable? I thought it was always going to be a light flexible one like how zowie does it


He posted this earlier:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> 3- Cord:
> I'll see if I can get a much more flexible cord replacement and put it on Amazon at a very cheap price, the cord did get slightly stiffer after it went for CE/FCC certification, but after sending it out and asking about the cord, no one had a problem with it, and I wasn't having any trouble with it either. So given it was there for a legal reason, I decided not to mess with it. I really didn't expect anyone to hate it, maybe not say its the best cord ever, but not hate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but like I say I will try and do something about it.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Change of plan on the way, as always, I guess, because of cheaper costs. I also expected thick feet, as he showed in pictures at some point, but we got thin ones. I also modded this by putting the second feet on top of them, otherwise the mouse would have not been usable once more.


Some people are so suspicious that I cut corners and try to maximise profit, but I didn't, I actually had to push to spend more for better quality. I put the extra feet in because I knew some people wouldn't find them thick enough, but its not like I didn't try to make them thicker. I actually lost over $1500 doing that







Thats just one little area. Making a mouse can be fun, but SO stressful sometimes.

Anyway - I learnt a lot. I'm sorry it came at the expense of not having a perfect first mouse like we all wanted it to be, I really am! Why would I want any less.

The good thing is the problems aren't too big, I can fix them:
- The pre order distribution was bad, but I was let down, it was a difficult situation and still dealing with the aftermath. But now its fine and easy to manage, just like it should have been at the start.
- Mouse buttons, scroll wheel, cable: I'll try to offer replacement parts where I can and improve on future orders, so these problems are gone forever.
- Software: I'm working on it at the moment with the factory, its a bit of a head scratcher, but this is one of the reasons I won't be using a factory to develop the 3310 sensor. I prefer to know exactly whats going on.

I'm not asking for sympathy or anything like that, but just for people to remember I'm just one person (or gamer), starting out knowing almost nothing, and outside of the mouse itself I done all the work (website, logos, trademark, packaging, designs, software graphics, bar codes, all sorts of things I had to learn about regulations, and so on). All I ask is don't assume I'm evil and money grabbing, it doesn't even make much sense because its going to take ages to even begin to take a wage from this company, I do it because its what I love doing.

I hold my hands up and am accountable and responsible for my mistakes, and if people want to go on about them forever thats just the price I pay, its fair enough, but its different when people try to fill in the gaps, and they always assume the worst, I just felt I should say something in my defence, even though it may not convince everyone.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Some people are so suspicious that I cut corners and try to maximise profit, but I didn't, I actually had to push to spend more for better quality. I put the extra feet in because I knew some people wouldn't find them thick enough, but its not like I didn't try to make them thicker. I actually lost over $1500 doing that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats just one little area. Making a mouse can be fun, but SO stressful sometimes.
> 
> Anyway - I learnt a lot. I'm sorry it came at the expense of not having a perfect first mouse like we all wanted it to be, I really am! Why would I want any less.
> 
> The good thing is the problems aren't too big, I can fix them:
> - The pre order distribution was bad, but I was let down, it was a difficult situation and still dealing with the aftermath. But now its fine and easy to manage, just like it should have been at the start.
> - Mouse buttons, scroll wheel, cable: I'll try to offer replacement parts where I can and improve on future orders, so these problems are gone forever.
> - Software: I'm working on it at the moment with the factory, its a bit of a head scratcher, but this is one of the reasons I won't be using a factory to develop the 3310 sensor. I prefer to know exactly whats going on.
> 
> I'm not asking for sympathy or anything like that, but just for people to remember I'm just one person (or gamer), starting out knowing almost nothing, and outside of the mouse itself I done all the work (website, logos, trademark, packaging, designs, software graphics, bar codes, all sorts of things I had to learn about regulations, and so on). All I ask is don't assume I'm evil and money grabbing, it doesn't even make much sense because its going to take ages to even begin to take a wage from this company, I do it because its what I love doing.
> 
> I hold my hands up and am accountable and responsible for my mistakes, and if people want to go on about them forever thats just the price I pay, its fair enough, but its different when people try to fill in the gaps, and they always assume the worst, I just felt I should say something in my defence, even though it may not convince everyone.


Keep your head up mate you've done a mighty fine job, the majority of people dont have the balls to go out on a limb like you have. I bought one just to show support, I think its great what you are doing. I cant imagine where to begin on all the obscure factors that go into building and making a mouse from scratch. Keep it up


----------



## chrispow

I truly appreciate what you have done, bst. I am eagerly awaiting improvements/solutions and of course your next mouse.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Some people are so suspicious that I cut corners and try to maximise profit, but I didn't, I actually had to push to spend more for better quality. I put the extra feet in because I knew some people wouldn't find them thick enough, but its not like I didn't try to make them thicker. I actually lost over $1500 doing that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats just one little area. Making a mouse can be fun, but SO stressful sometimes.
> 
> Anyway - I learnt a lot. I'm sorry it came at the expense of not having a perfect first mouse like we all wanted it to be, I really am! Why would I want any less.
> 
> The good thing is the problems aren't too big, I can fix them:
> - The pre order distribution was bad, but I was let down, it was a difficult situation and still dealing with the aftermath. But now its fine and easy to manage, just like it should have been at the start.
> - Mouse buttons, scroll wheel, cable: I'll try to offer replacement parts where I can and improve on future orders, so these problems are gone forever.
> - Software: I'm working on it at the moment with the factory, its a bit of a head scratcher, but this is one of the reasons I won't be using a factory to develop the 3310 sensor. I prefer to know exactly whats going on.
> 
> I'm not asking for sympathy or anything like that, but just for people to remember I'm just one person (or gamer), starting out knowing almost nothing, and outside of the mouse itself I done all the work (website, logos, trademark, packaging, designs, software graphics, bar codes, all sorts of things I had to learn about regulations, and so on). All I ask is don't assume I'm evil and money grabbing, it doesn't even make much sense because its going to take ages to even begin to take a wage from this company, I do it because its what I love doing.
> 
> I hold my hands up and am accountable and responsible for my mistakes, and if people want to go on about them forever thats just the price I pay, its fair enough, but its different when people try to fill in the gaps, and they always assume the worst, I just felt I should say something in my defence, even though it may not convince everyone.


I don't see you as a money grabber at all. But this is your first mouse and heavily hyped by the community to boot. It's normal to have some bad and good feedback.

Though when "bad" feedback becomes repetitive you should take it in and consider it for any next revision or new product. That goes for any company tbh, not just you. Swapping the cable for a Zowie cable made an immense improvement to this mouse and further improved a positive aspect of it: The insanely light weight.

This indicates that for alot players you got the weight right but the cable wrong so it's a hit/miss. If the mouse itself was heavier, the cable's weight and thickness would probably become less pronounced.

The mouse4/5 issue (body pressing) is a mistake made by many companies (ROCCAT, Zowie, ..) and can be resolved in a newer mouse.

Just take it all in, it's your first product and it's feedback.

Most of us do agree that you delivered one of the best 3090 implementations and that means something. Considering that aspect alone I really do look forward to what you can bring with an even better sensor such as the 3310 (though I really do hope its an ambi mouse with a "butt" this time







).

Software wise I would look into the possibility of a firmware reset tool for now as a quick (temporary) solution. Depending on what the issue is, with this people might be able to solve the problem themselves without having to go through a whole RMA ordeal (which is annoying for both you and the customer).


----------



## resis

@BST:

I didn't think you would cut on quality to grab more money, but rather to not exceed the development costs and have too much loss with it.

Generally I think the mouse is of good quality, the shell is firm, the side and dpi buttons sit firm, the clicks are fine. The issue with the main buttons was not fundamental, by bending the buttons slightly downward the looseness was gone and they feel like any other gaming mouse, although buttons became lighter to press.

The wheel is not that bad. The click is actually good (also I like that the switch is omron, not some TTP stuff), but the scroll is a bit too loose. What I dislike the most though is how shaky the wheel is, it wobbles and jumps around. Most wheels do that, but it's a bit too loose on the Aurora for my taste.

The funny thing about the feet is that Deathadder, Diamondback and AM also had slim feet, but the glossy underside never gave a problem with those. FK and Aurora have slim feet and a rough underside and both were dragged down by it and I had to put second feet on both of them. The surface of the underside matters here.

Cord is, I guess, more of a personal situation, some prefer it stiffer. For me it was downright unenjoyable. People call it a deal breaker.
Once I tasted Zowie cord I can't and wont go back.









I can only speak for myself, but for a next mouse I'd like to see the following improvements (I probably posted this stuff already, but I sum it up again):

- The shape is great, shell can stay.
- I'd cut on the rear LEDs. The logo is too huge to light up, make it pure elegant white on black rubber coating and keep just the one LED on the wheel.
- Preferably glossy underside of the mouse, but still also thicker stock feet.
- AM like cord (nothing else to say)
- CM Storm Recon has the best wheel. It is wider than usual wheels and feels more like a button when you use it, but also scrolling is good. Once I tried Recon wheel I wish to see more such things, but that is not a priority feature, wheel just has to be good.
- Wheel with the glowing rims is cool, but make the material of the rims pure white so it would match the pure white logo on the back (just cosmetic, but hey).
- Side buttons could be larger.
- Rubber coating is too slippery and I think the large area of the logo that is not covered by rubber adds to the palm slipping off it when using a firm claw grip. As said above, if the logo is just white rubber print, than this one element would probably naturally be improved.
- Main mouse buttons should not be loose.
- In a perfect world it would be cool if you could define how stiff each of the main buttons is. I'd prefer the right button to be slightly harder to press than the left button (edit: for some games, but not others).

Generally I think it doesn't take all that much to significantly improve the mouse and with my modifications it's a great mouse that I enjoy a lot, but without those modification it was really unenjoyable and I'd have sent it back in no time.

Can't say much about the software, works for me so far, but this stuff can be fixed post release, unlike the hardware. I'm definitely looking forward for the next project.


----------



## Mych

A good Aurora unit still beats vast majority of mice, pretty great feat for a first mouse. The clicks just needed a bit more attention (cables I can fix), but then again I'm spoiled by G302 and other Logi mice. Will consider buying the next one too.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> - I'd cut on the rear LEDs. The logo is too huge to light up, make it pure elegant white on black rubber coating and keep just the one LED on the wheel.


Do we really need LED's at all? I don't see why such a no BS mouse needs lights to be honest. But maybe I'm in the minority? Why do you and others want lights?


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Do we really need LED's at all? I don't see why such a no BS mouse needs lights to be honest. But maybe I'm in the minority? Why do you and others want lights?


why not have some fancy stuff, when it doesn't affect the mouse in a bad way.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Do we really need LED's at all? I don't see why such a no BS mouse needs lights to be honest. But maybe I'm in the minority? Why do you and others want lights?


I just like it, but hate if there's too much. I don't like glow anywhere but the wheel for the most part. Razer's logo glow was awesome due to the unique symbol and that it was made of fine lines and was not just a huge glowing lamp like Ninox or even CM Storm.

I really hate it if the mouse lights up like a Christmas tree, but I love me some glowing wheel rims. With my Aurora mod you also see the front LED through the translucent shell, but that's fine and looks nice, but anything more would be annoying.

Reason is more practical than it seems. I game at night, black mouse, black mat, low light. Have wiped mice without lights off the pad before. Even the Zowie mice have some glow to the wheel from the sensor LED, thus Zowie mice do have a glowing wheel, only it's a very weak glow visible in the dark.

That said, I find mice without any kind of "visibility" or point of orientation really annoying. Just like why I need a keyboard with illuminated keys.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I just like it, but hate if there's too much. I don't like glow anywhere but the wheel for the most part. Razer's logo glow was awesome due to the unique symbol and that it was made of fine lines and was not just a huge glowing lamp like Ninox or even CM Storm.
> 
> I really hate it if the mouse lights up like a Christmas tree, but I love me some glowing wheel rims. With my Aurora mod you also see the front LED through the translucent shell, but that's fine and looks nice, but anything more would be annoying.
> 
> Reason is more practical than it seems. I game at night, black mouse, black mat, low light. Have wiped mice without lights off the pad before. Even the Zowie mice have some glow to the wheel from the sensor LED, thus Zowie mice do have a glowing wheel, only it's a very weak glow visible in the dark.
> 
> That said, I find mice without any kind of "visibility" or point of orientation really annoying. Just like why I need a keyboard with illuminated keys.


Fair enough. I don't really understand the visibility bit as the monitor lights up everything anyway even in full darkness. And why would you wipe a mouse without light off pad? Isn't it first and foremost your hand/arm that prevent you from doing that? Surely your eyes are on the monitor


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Keep your head up mate you've done a mighty fine job, the majority of people dont have the balls to go out on a limb like you have. I bought one just to show support, I think its great what you are doing. I cant imagine where to begin on all the obscure factors that go into building and making a mouse from scratch. Keep it up


EXACTLY, don't give up on us here BST because a few saw fit to complain incessantly about this mouse. Granted it isn't up to spec quality wise like a Roccat (then again no one beats them regarding quality issues) but it came down to price hence we all see that.

Other than replacing the cable and feet this baby shall remain in my collection for some time to come.

Also wanted to know from anyone who bought this mouse did you notice some kind of noise inside the casing like something rolling around inside?

Opened up the Aurora and sure enough a piece of small black plastic came out. It's rectangular in size about 4mm x 2mm very small. Have no idea where it came off because inside I didn't notice any broken spaces or sections within the casing. Very weird indeed.......


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Fair enough. I don't really understand the visibility bit as the monitor lights up everything anyway even in full darkness. And why would you wipe a mouse without light off pad? Isn't it first and foremost your hand/arm that prevent you from doing that? Surely your eyes are on the monitor


My set up is a bit different, the mouse pad is almost under the monitor and the mouse in the dark.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Do we really need LED's at all? I don't see why such a no BS mouse needs lights to be honest. But maybe I'm in the minority? Why do you and others want lights?


Good idea FORGET the stupid lights because it's for serious people here. Gamers don't like stupid lights on their devices and always choose to disable them when they're playing. Time to re-design this shell to make it more serious for the genuine player and not more child-like for the ignoramus's out there.

If you want dazzling lights buy a Razer or any current Logitech "Gamer" rubbish.


----------



## cuad

A light is helpful for finding the mouse in the dark.


----------



## CorruptBE

I could give a rats butt about leds (damn swearing filter seriously).

For all I care it's pink. These days I'll be hapy to get something that just performs better then my previous mouse and has a shape I prefer.

Actually my only real issue why I went back to the FK2 is a subjective one: My FK2 has a butt.

Though for these "butt" reasons, I might do some WMO shell modding when I get some time off from work.


----------



## AnimalK

@bst you did a good thing. I and many others are very appreciative of that.

Pay attention to the complaints but don't soak in the negativity and let it define who you are or all the work you did.

I and many others look forward to your upcoming projects and I am offering my help for programming the 3310 sensor.


----------



## LzbeL

guys, this mouse works better than IMO 1.1? I want change my mouse. I play CSGO.


----------



## Gigantoad

There. AM cable and removed LED's.


----------



## Xanatos

I'm just wondering about my refund.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I also expected thick feet, as he showed in pictures at some point, but we got thin ones


In fact we wanted fairly thin feets, so we can stack them, if needed. Not the other way around. (there's no other way around obviously)

Bst has done many things right. Almost everything as we've spoken on ESR back in 2011/12. Just the quality issues (button/wheel) and the different cable he used..
He couldn't realize angle snapping, but thats something he told us before. (although i must have missed the part, were he said why the other settings like sensitivity and smoothing were removed from the software. My wild guess is that the software had to work like a driver then. Just like pvh's QL accel driver for example.)

Back to the mousefeets, i think BST should have kept the under site of the mouse completely flat, so we could have used any mousefeets we wanted, without having to sand down anything. If the spots for the mousefeeds would have been only slightly wider, we could have been able to use the hyperglide dots for the logitech G1/mx300.

edit:
just seen bst already replied to this.


----------



## copterguise

It'd be super super nice if the people still waiting for a refund could actually get it. Not a promise of getting it "really soon", not the "monday it is", but an actual refund. This is basically fraud.


----------



## RentoN

Damn, I really want to participate in the discussion here, but I still didn't get my Aurora
Massdrop shipped the mouse on 12/12/14, so it's been well over 4 weeks now (massdrop homepage says 2-4 weeks to ship to germany).
Unfortunately the shipment method Massdrop uses doesn't have tracking updates for packages so I don't even know if it's still on it's way or if it got lost somewhere along the way or if Massdrop even shipped it when they said they did.
Already contacted Massdrop support and waiting for a reply.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> 
> 
> There. AM cable and removed LED's.


can you change the cable easily or do you need to re-solder it?


----------



## CorruptBE

With the Zowie cable its just unplug and plug. Though it was a tad sturdy, couldn't get it loose easily.


----------



## thorsteNN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Damn, I really want to participate in the discussion here, but I still didn't get my Aurora
> Massdrop shipped the mouse on 12/12/14, so it's been well over 4 weeks now (massdrop homepage says 2-4 weeks to ship to germany).
> Unfortunately the shipment method Massdrop uses doesn't have tracking updates for packages so I don't even know if it's still on it's way or if it got lost somewhere along the way or if Massdrop even shipped it when they said they did.
> Already contacted Massdrop support and waiting for a reply.


i don't have it yet either (also germany)


----------



## kicksome

Dont mean to brag but I jumped in on the 2nd massdrop which ended a week ago and i just got an email saying massdrop is shipping me a package. Here's hoping i dont get a weird faulty one


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Dont mean to brag but I jumped in on the 2nd massdrop which ended a week ago and i just got an email saying massdrop is shipping me a package. Here's hoping i dont get a weird faulty one


Hey it's very easy to fix and opening up the mouse is dead easy, even for a moron like me







.


----------



## CorruptBE

Probably one of the best things ever: No need to remove the skates to open up the mouse.

Logitechs where like this in the old days... why oh why does every other mouse now have its screws UNDER the skates


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Logitechs where like this in the old days... why oh why does every other mouse now have its screws UNDER the skates


Because they the manufacturer, wants to dissuade the likes of us in ever opening up our mice in the first place.

Considering an RMA would be futile better fix the prob yourself instead of contributing more land fill in the world today.


----------



## RentoN

Massdrop support just replied saying "I will dispatch a new one to you since it seems that the original package must be lost in-transit."
I wonder if that means that they checked back with the shipping company or if they just assume based on the fact that the package still didn't arrive after more than 4 weeks.
Hope it's the latter and there's a chance my mouse still arrives in the next couple days. Waiting 7 to 9 weeks in total would be kinda rediculous.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Dont mean to brag but I jumped in on the 2nd massdrop which ended a week ago and i just got an email saying massdrop is shipping me a package. Here's hoping i dont get a weird faulty one


What do you mean "don't mean to brag"?
If this is a reply to my previous post: Shipping date and date the mouse arrives are two different things.
Like I said, I got that same e-mail more than 4 weeks ago.
Hope you'll have more luck than I did though.
I'll be so mad if I get a faulty one after waiting for 9 weeks xD


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Massdrop support just replied saying "I will dispatch a new one to you since it seems that the original package must be lost in-transit."
> I wonder if that means that they checked back with the shipping company or if they just assume based on the fact that the package still didn't arrive after more than 4 weeks.
> Hope it's the latter and there's a chance my mouse still arrives in the next couple days. Waiting 7 to 9 weeks in total would be kinda rediculous.
> What do you mean "don't mean to brag"?
> If this is a reply to my previous post: Shipping date and date the mouse arrives are two different things.
> Like I said, I got that same e-mail more than 4 weeks ago.
> Hope you'll have more luck than I did though.
> I'll be so mad if I get a faulty one after waiting for 9 weeks xD


Well you did come further than I have so far











So, @bst as it seems you are responding here, would be great if I could get any kind of response. Neither my ticket has received any response, and so hasnt any other form of contact.


----------



## Maximillion

^wow, unbelievable.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Dont mean to brag but I jumped in on the 2nd massdrop which ended a week ago and i just got an email saying massdrop is shipping me a package. Here's hoping i dont get a weird faulty one


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> Well you did come further than I have so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, @bst as it seems you are responding here, would be great if I could get any kind of response. Neither my ticket has received any response, and so hasnt any other form of contact.


Wow.
Earlier I was thinking "I wish I'd have preordered from the ninox website. Just like €6 more and I'd have gotten my mouse a long time ago"
... that feeling is gone now, so thanks for that







Hope this problem will be resolved an you get your mouse soon.


----------



## kicksome

Where exactly on the mass drop site does it say how long the expected delivery time is? I'm in Australia so I'm guessing 2-3 weeks


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Where exactly on the mass drop site does it say how long the expected delivery time is? I'm in Australia so I'm guessing 2-3 weeks


I'm in Perth, hence expect at least 4 to 5 weeks delivery time......







.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> I'm in Perth, hence expect at least 4 to 5 weeks delivery time......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


ouch, guess I won't hold my breath then


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Where exactly on the mass drop site does it say how long the expected delivery time is? I'm in Australia so I'm guessing 2-3 weeks


https://www.massdrop.com/faq
Quote:


> How long does it take to ship internationally?
> 
> These are the rough estimates for different countries based on our experience. Please keep in mind that shipping times can be shorter or longer depending on shipping or customs delays.
> 
> Canada: 1-3 weeks from the shipping date
> Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France, and UK: 2-4 weeks from the shipping date
> Countries not listed: 3-6 weeks from shipping date


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> ouch, guess I won't hold my breath then


The essence of living so far away from the 'Developed World' which you get use to.

Besides a month rolls by so easily here before you know it, the postie drops off your load quicker than a Hay Street hooker could ever manage







.


----------



## Creizai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> I put the second feet on and LOD is exactly like Zowie now. For me there is no need for taping the lens.
> Yeah I did that, but it would be nice to shut them down without to break things, like putting something on the metal rods to intercept the electricity and make the LEDs not glow. Or stuff.


Electric tape over the leds isn't going to break anything, and if you decide the ricer in you starts to come alive you can remove it and everything will be perfectly fine.


----------



## Mych

Received Aurora before Christmas, and Ninox site still says processing, so wouldn't rely on that too much. The problems/mixups with delivery systems messed that up, and bst probably rather works on delivering mice and other issues than updating a piece of text.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> ^wow, unbelievable.


I can do the same picture with a "1000000067" mouse. Just that the mouse already arrived, even before Christmas. Just saying.

"Processing" doesn't mean its not shipped.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> The essence of living so far away from the 'Developed World' which you get use to.
> 
> Besides a month rolls by so easily here *before you know it, the postie drops off your load quicker than a Hay Street hooker could ever manage*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


that's debatable


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> I can do the same picture with a "1000000067" mouse. Just that the mouse already arrived, even before Christmas. Just saying.
> 
> "Processing" doesn't mean its not shipped.


But then I would have received a mail that it has been shipped, right? Which I havnt so far.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> But then I would have received a mail that it has been shipped, right? Which I havnt so far.


I didn't get a notification.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> I didn't get a notification.


Alright, thanks for that. On the other hand, once it should arrive in Germany and it will be shipped via DHL, I usualy get an E-Mail from them.

It's just a bit sad that other people from germany who pre-ordered later already got theirs. :/

Nonetheless, maybe bst is able to look into that, JIC it may have been lost during the shipping


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> Alright, thanks for that. On the other hand, once it should arrive in Germany and it will be shipped via DHL, I usualy get an E-Mail from them.
> 
> It's just a bit sad that other people from germany who pre-ordered later already got theirs. :/
> 
> Nonetheless, maybe bst is able to look into that, JIC it may have been lost during the shipping


I get the feeling it might be lost









Has BST replied to your emails?

Then again there might be stock issues on his end. There hasn't been too much info lately.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> But then I would have received a mail that it has been shipped, right? Which I havnt so far.


No.

My second Aurora shipped without email notification.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> ..once it should arrive in Germany and it will be shipped via DHL, I usualy get an E-Mail from them.


My second Aurora came with Hermes, not DHL.


----------



## Xanatos

What's the status on the refunds?


----------



## detto87

Well, I heard nothing from his thus far.



Opened a ticket to cancel my order on December 12th but that went into nirvana too I guess.
If nothing happens till February I'll take the unpleasant way and contact PayPal, then my lawyer.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

My review:





Text summary:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



A little over 3m/s with 2 sets of mouse feet.
1600dpi step = ~1500, 800 step = 740-764

Tracks on 2 CDs with double mouse feet (back of mouse on CDs, front touching mouse pad). Doesn't track on 3. Mousepad color doesn't seem to affect lod.

Cord is a little heavy & stiff for such a light mouse but I got used it and it didn't bother me that much.

The 3090 implementation is a lot better than Zowie's. There is no inaccuracy on the desktop, and the FPS game performance is better as well. Feels on par with the KPM sensor, though a bit different.
Doesn't feel as artificially processed as a lot of other mice, but does feel a bit off. One possible factor could be that the DPI value varies each time you measure by a range of around 25.

For some reason this mouse doesn't cramp my hand nearly as much as the FK1 even though at its widest it's the same width as the FK1 is at its thinnest. Only thing I can think of is that maybe it has to do with how the FK1 goes from wider in the back to thinner in the middle. Which forces an unnatural contortion in palm grip.
The fact that my fingers literally go over the front of the mouse and touch the mousepad in front, doesn't bother me that much. But the mouse is too thin for me and others to comfortably palm.

Middle button too stiff to the point where I often accidentally scroll the wheel when I'm trying to press it. And too far back, so I can't scroll it with my middle finger.

Some people have complained that their scroll wheels have no noticeable notches. Mine does though, so there are likely quality control issues with this mouse.

The clicks feels pretty cheap, non-clicky, and a bit too hard to press.

Coating is nice for both dry and sweaty hands. Rubber on top, textured plastic on sides.

At default it malfunctions much easier than my 3.0 even though it's supposed to track twice as fast. But adding the extra set of mouse feet that come in the box fixes the problem.

In comparison with the KPM, the KPM has better build quality, aurora has a much better shape IMO, aurora is 20g lighter, weight balance is better, but lacks the native 50cpi increments.

Rank of mice I've recently tested:
1. 3.0
2. KPM, aurora
3. avior7000 (got new firmware update I was unable to test because I'd already returned it. New update might increase rank.)
4. all the rest


----------



## Creizai

When I saw you got one I was at a complete loss since it is so much more tiny than even the FK1 and you prefer big mice like the 3.0. Must say I'm surprised that you enjoyed the mouse as much as you did and ranked it so high.


----------



## Maximillion

Thanks for the review, Kohler. I've always liked the editing + how short and to the key points they are. I'm still somewhat tempted to give the mouse a shot but I'm pretty satisfied with my FM'15. I know the FinalMouse review is coming soon, but you mentioned the Aurora has a stiff middle click. Is it harder or softer than your FinalMouse? I find the middle click to be too hard on that as well.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> My review:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Text summary:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> A little over 3m/s with 2 sets of mouse feet.
> 1600dpi step = ~1500, 800 step = 740-764
> 
> Tracks on 2 CDs with double mouse feet (back of mouse on CDs, front touching mouse pad). Doesn't track on 3. Mousepad color doesn't seem to affect lod.
> 
> Cord is a little heavy & stiff for such a light mouse but I got used it and it didn't bother me that much.
> 
> The 3090 implementation is a lot better than Zowie's. There is no inaccuracy on the desktop, and the FPS game performance is better as well. Feels on par with the KPM sensor, though a bit different.
> Doesn't feel as artificially processed as a lot of other mice, but does feel a bit off. One possible factor could be that the DPI value varies each time you measure by a range of around 25.
> 
> For some reason this mouse doesn't cramp my hand nearly as much as the FK1 even though at its widest it's the same width as the FK1 is at its thinnest. Only thing I can think of is that maybe it has to do with how the FK1 goes from wider in the back to thinner in the middle. Which forces an unnatural contortion in palm grip.
> The fact that my fingers literally go over the front of the mouse and touch the mousepad in front, doesn't bother me that much. But the mouse is too thin for me and others to comfortably palm.
> 
> Middle button too stiff to the point where I often accidentally scroll the wheel when I'm trying to press it. And too far back, so I can't scroll it with my middle finger.
> 
> Some people have complained that their scroll wheels have no noticeable notches. Mine does though, so there are likely quality control issues with this mouse.
> 
> The clicks feels pretty cheap, non-clicky, and a bit too hard to press.
> 
> Coating is nice for both dry and sweaty hands. Rubber on top, textured plastic on sides.
> 
> At default it malfunctions much easier than my 3.0 even though it's supposed to track twice as fast. But adding the extra set of mouse feet that come in the box fixes the problem.
> 
> In comparison with the KPM, the KPM has better build quality, aurora has a much better shape IMO, aurora is 20g lighter, weight balance is better, but lacks the native 50cpi increments.
> 
> Rank of mice I've recently tested:
> 1. 3.0
> 2. KPM, aurora
> 3. avior7000 (got new firmware update I was unable to test because I'd already returned it. New update might increase rank.)
> 4. all the rest


How was the overall build quality/perceived feel in the hand?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> How was the overall build quality/perceived feel in the hand?


I'd say 8/10. A little better than the rival I think. But since there are some quality control issues, different people are going to get some varying experiences. Mine doesn't have a lot of the problems other people were mentioning. Like the different button height, no notches in scroll wheel, etc..

It's pretty much on par with my 3.0 LE. The buttons on the aurora are just a bit stiffer/cheaper feeling.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Creizai*
> 
> When I saw you got one I was at a complete loss since it is so much more tiny than even the FK1 and you prefer big mice like the 3.0. Must say I'm surprised that you enjoyed the mouse as much as you did and ranked it so high.


I actually do NOT like the 3.0 size/shape, weight, etc.. Which is why I've always had a bunch of stuff taped on mine. The ONLY reason I use the 3.0 is for the sensor.

I've used medium-small mice in the past, and it's not universal that all small mice = bad. There are just certain places where the mouse needs the right space/shape. Like some of the SS mice I tested were too narrow at the front right where the ring finger is rested in palm grip, so there was no room to grip it there and thus made them claw/finger tip grip only, or only for small hands. Also there was a uncomfortable contour on the xai that cramped my hand. And the way that the DA curves out in the right front so that it either bends your finger out or digs into your finger, makes that mouse unusable for me. Various things like that.

It seems to be mostly the narrowness of a lot of recent mice is the main problem though. And getting wider in the back like the rival and FK1, does not help.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Thanks for the review, Kohler. I've always liked the editing + how short and to the key points they are. I'm still somewhat tempted to give the mouse a shot but I'm pretty satisfied with my FM'15. I know the FinalMouse review is coming soon, but you mentioned the Aurora has a stiff middle click. Is it harder or softer than your FinalMouse? I find the middle click to be too hard on that as well.


They're pretty similar, except the FM doesn't accidentally scroll when I click the button.

If your FM doesn't have the tracking issues that mine does, than I think there's no reason to buy the aurora. If the replacement FM I get doesn't have tracking issues than I forsee it being the best mouse available right now.


----------



## bst

About the refunds, it looks like I'm going to have to put each tracking number into paypal individually before they unlock my account. I'm going to start doing that over the weekend (they won't accept other ways of doing it). Also its annoying because they'll email people when I do it, as if the item has been sent again... which is confusing for people.

I don't think paypal limited my account because I had some buyer complaints, because I always refunded those straight away (that was before the mice were sent out). Its just because they have a rule that you must associate every transaction from a website with a tracking number, at least with a high amount of transactions anyway.

The issue is any transaction over 60 days can't be refunded, and I can't send money instead (because they won't let me).

I wish I had never used paypal, if it was normal credit cards I could have refunded everyone by now without any trouble.


----------



## thorsteNN

@bst and what about the people who didnt receive their mice from the very first massdrop? I heard about some people contacted massdrop and they shipped a new one, but it's not realistic that so many mice get lost on delivery. should have other reasons.


----------



## bst

I'm not going to be ordering any more Aurora's, at least until I can get things ironed out with it. In the mean time I'll be working on the software to eliminate the conflicts and bugs people are having.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thorsteNN*
> 
> @bst and what about the people who didnt receive their mice from the very first massdrop? I heard about some people contacted massdrop and they shipped a new one, but it's not realistic that so many mice get lost on delivery. should have other reasons.


I really don't know, I sent them all the mice they asked for, I don't know how they'd send new ones since I sent them the exact amount that was ordered on the site.

How many do you think have gone missing, I've seen one or two, but from the way you describe it, it sounds like more?

I'll contact massdrop and find out if they need more mice. I'm not really sure what else I can do though, once its with them, they know all the details about how and where the mice were sent, the best thing to do is contact them if theres a problem, I can ask them about it but I don't have any specifics to ask them about.


----------



## petejones7

Please go with a WMO/Sensei shape, you'd have the ambidextrous mouse lovers on smash! (considering there are already some great options for those who like other shapes) The second one with the photo is quite different from a WMO, I never really liked that shape much what with the skinny middle area. But that's just me talking. The Aurora is a great shape; second best next to the WMO (with the Sensei in third but too bulky to use with agility).


----------



## a_ak57

G9x style shape. >_>

Also, I hadn't tried messing with it until now but I noticed that no led colors work other than red/blue/purple. Is that a hardware defect/software issue on my end, or was that "rgb" idea dropped and the software simply never updated to remove it? Doesn't actually bother me since I would just use red/blue anyway, but just curious.


----------



## Ukkooh

Bst, would be nice if us who pre-ordered could get a little discount on the 3310 aurora. I'm buying 2 of them on release.


----------



## writer21

Will the 3310 Aurora be released anytime soon with WMO shape? I was going to get this Aurora but rather wait for better sensor and lighter weight WMO shaped Aurora.


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I actually do NOT like the 3.0 size/shape, weight, etc.. Which is why I've always had a bunch of stuff taped on mine. The ONLY reason I use the 3.0 is for the sensor.
> 
> I've used medium-small mice in the past, and it's not universal that all small mice = bad. There are just certain places where the mouse needs the right space/shape. Like some of the SS mice I tested were too narrow at the front right where the ring finger is rested in palm grip, so there was no room to grip it there and thus made them claw/finger tip grip only, or only for small hands. Also there was a uncomfortable contour on the xai that cramped my hand. And the way that the DA curves out in the right front so that it either bends your finger out or digs into your finger, makes that mouse unusable for me. Various things like that.
> 
> It seems to be mostly the narrowness of a lot of recent mice is the main problem though. And getting wider in the back like the rival and FK1, does not help.
> They're pretty similar, except the FM doesn't accidentally scroll when I click the button.
> 
> If your FM doesn't have the tracking issues that mine does, than I think there's no reason to buy the aurora. If the replacement FM I get doesn't have tracking issues than I forsee it being the best mouse available right now.


Have had my hands on the FinalMouse for a little while now. Will be posting a review on my experience with it soon. First review


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I'm not going to be ordering any more Aurora's, at least until I can get things ironed out with it. In the mean time I'll be working on the software to eliminate the conflicts and bugs people are having. Even then, it will probably have the 3310 sensor and not the 3090 (unless theres demand for it, since a 3310 version is going to take longer).
> 
> At the moment I'm waiting for some samples for a new mouse, some people might say I should be focussing 100% on the Aurora, but I don't want to delay future products and developments either.
> 
> I have 3 samples coming, I'll share the sizes and describe them, don't want to post pics just yet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They all have side buttons on the left side of the mouse only.
> 1: Size (L*W*H): 12.5*6.8*4 cm (looks kind of like a sensei), 2 side buttons, 1 DPI button behind scroll wheel. (note: its not the mototech sensei clone, not keen on that one)
> 2: 12.5*6.5*4 cm (More like a WMO), 2 side buttons, 1 DPI button behind scroll wheel.
> Changed my mind about a photo: http://www.ninox.org/bst/nx-l-01.jpg
> 3: 12.5*6.33*3.77 cm (very similar to no.2, apparently this one can only have the 3050 sensor, but thought I'd try it anyway), 2 side buttons, 2 DPI buttons behind scroll wheel.
> 
> I'm just posting it because I think it'll make some people happy, since I saw so many people asking for this kind of mouse with 3310 sensor.
> (inb4 people making jokes about it taking 10 years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).


Question about the nr 1 option, it will feature a 3090/3310 sensor right?

Considering your approach to the 3090 firmware and the fact that I prefer that shape I would be looking forward to that.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Ehh, that #2 shape doesn't look good at all. I agree with end0rphine about making the sides straight like the aurora. Like I mentioned in my review, I think that could be the factor that makes the aurora shape better than the FK1.

IMO it is really not necessary to release 3 completely different shapes & sensors.

If you simply customized the aurora shape and improved the sensor, you could have the perfect mouse.

FinalMouse has possibly (depending how my replacement functions) released the first sensor that matches/surpasses the MLT04. If you could match their sensor performance and make the aurora wider and with better build quality, and 50cpi steps set to something like holding the DPI button and scrolling the wheel, as well as the few other small things I mentioned in my review, I really think you could have the perfect mouse.

And if FinalMouse adds the 50cpi steps with a better, customized shape, then they will be the first to have that perfect mouse.


----------



## CorruptBE

Somewhat agree with MaximilianKohler on nr 2.

Keep the shapes "subtle" but effective. Part of peoples like towards certain shapes comes from the fact that they're:

1) Simple
2) Subtle in their grooves, etc

Right now I prefer the Aurora's weight and performance over quite alot of other mice I have but I'm dying to have a "butt" on a mouse because I somewhat rest the back of my hand on it with a semi clawgrip.

Tbh I'd go with a Sensei/WMO'ish shape (but really like it) and if possible on a longer term perhaps a G9x shape. The latter could be interesting for alot of people and fill the gaping void Logitech left


----------



## povohat

I really like the flat sides of the Aurora. It's like the perfect fusion of G100S and WMO for me. I also understand the appeal for mice with more width in the rear, that's why I keep a KinzuAdder handy.


----------



## turnschuh

Thanks for posting here so frequently, bst.
Looking forward to the new 3310 mice!

After playing some weeks now with my aurora, i can say its the best shaped mouse i ve ever played with. The back is just awesome, even though the mouse is short it gives way better palm support than any other mouse i used. (the FK1 feels very bad after playing a longer time with the aurora..)
The sides, side material and top coating are awesome aswell.
If the aurora was slightly longer, like 5 mm or so, and if the mwheel was also placed more to the front, it would be the perfect shape for me i guess.

The mouse didnt even malfunction once now after learning that it just needed the right amount of height added with two layers of duct tape and MS 1.1/3.0 feet. And yea the cable had to be changed aswell. ^^

But after modding it a little, its close to perfect. Thanks!

Really hoping for a 3310 aurora with better cable =)

Btw, @bst, not sure if you already thought about the feet placement on the new planed mice but think about placing them like on the WMO, especially the upper feet for better wrist movement.

Also want to say some things about the LEDs, since there were some people who do not want/like them.

I like the RGB LED to have some indication of what dpi step i am using. I toggle between 400/green and 800/blue for example and would not want to miss that in future mice.
The option to have the light on the wheel only would be cool though, like on the mouse you posted earlier.

For those who dont want LEDs you could disable them on default and let us choose to have them on through drivers.

Oh and about the new shapes: Since i already like the auroras so much i can only suggest one thing:
Use the same butt for all the other shaped mice you are going to make! =)

Just some ideas.


----------



## thizito

I just want my preorder.. I was like #70~ preorder and paid alot for shipping, no tracking?


----------



## ramraze

The good thing about Wmo and Sensei/Xai shapes is that they are long enough, have enough width and height for most people.

It's quite important that you pick a shape with more width and length than the old Aurora. The g402 is a good example of this, as it's relatively thin, which hurts the shape/performance.

Also, people like a firm scrollwheel


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Also, people like a firm scrollwheel


Why? Firm in what way? The scrolling?


----------



## Creizai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Why? Firm in what way? The scrolling?


I actually didn't feel like the middle button was hard to press, correctly placed, and it never scrolled when I clicked it. Then I saw you use your middle finger, something I never do, and sure enough it did feel hard to press, too short, and it scrolled.







I never thought switching scroll wheel fingers could have such an effect, looks like another thing to add to how personal preference can change your mindset of a mouse.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Thanks for posting here so frequently, bst.
> Looking forward to the new 3310 mice!
> 
> After playing some weeks now with my aurora, i can say its the best shaped mouse i ve ever played with. The back is just awesome, even though the mouse is short it gives way better palm support than any other mouse i used. (the FK1 feels very bad after playing a longer time with the aurora..)
> The sides, side material and top coating are awesome aswell.
> If the aurora was slightly longer, like 5 mm or so, and if the mwheel was also placed more to the front, it would be the perfect shape for me i guess.
> 
> The mouse didnt even malfunction once now after learning that it just needed the right amount of height added with two layers of duct tape and MS 1.1/3.0 feet. And yea the cable had to be changed aswell. ^^
> 
> But after modding it a little, its close to perfect. Thanks!
> 
> Really hoping for a 3310 aurora with better cable =)
> 
> Btw, @bst, not sure if you already thought about the feet placement on the new planed mice but think about placing them like on the WMO, especially the upper feet for better wrist movement.
> 
> Also want to say some things about the LEDs, since there were some people who do not want/like them.
> 
> I like the RGB LED to have some indication of what dpi step i am using. I toggle between 400/green and 800/blue for example and would not want to miss that in future mice.
> The option to have the light on the wheel only would be cool though, like on the mouse you posted earlier.
> 
> For those who dont want LEDs you could disable them on default and let us choose to have them on through drivers.
> 
> Oh and about the new shapes: Since i already like the auroras so much i can only suggest one thing:
> Use the same butt for all the other shaped mice you are going to make! =)
> 
> Just some ideas.


Any chance you could post up some pictures of your duck tape + wmo feet? It would save me a trip to the store for sand paper.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Creizai*
> 
> I actually didn't feel like the middle button was hard to press, correctly placed, and it never scrolled when I clicked it. Then I saw you use your middle finger, something I never do, and sure enough it did feel hard to press, too short, and it scrolled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never thought switching scroll wheel fingers could have such an effect, looks like another thing to add to how personal preference can change your mindset of a mouse.


I actually don't use my middle finger to scroll because I don't have a mouse that lets me do so (all the wheels are too far back. However, I would LIKE to because that means I can bunny jump while keeping my finger on the trigger button.

The 3.0 middle button is a lot easier to click though than pretty much all recent mice I've tested. I can't think of any good reason why someone would want a hard to press middle button or a hard to scroll wheel. However, a hard to press button and a easy to scroll wheel is a bad combo that leads to accidental scrolls.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Why? Firm in what way? The scrolling?


As in a scrollwheel with firm notches, also a non shaky or wobbly one. I know the QC isn't the best on the Aurora, hence, if it is made more firm and less loose, the problems can be avoided to some extent.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> As in a scrollwheel with firm notches, also a non shaky or wobbly one.


This.

I fixed mine with some plastic piece to make the notches more pronounced and fixed the wheel with a "leash" above the switch so it wont wobble and move much. Feels almost like the wheel on the recent Razer mice, which are quite firm.

My fixed Aurora wheel is much better than the Zowie now.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> This.
> 
> I fixed mine with some plastic piece to make the notches more pronounced and fixed the wheel with a "leash" above the switch so it wont wobble and move much. Feels almost like the wheel on the recent Razer mice, which are quite firm.
> 
> My fixed Aurora wheel is much better than the Zowie now.


Glad it worked for you. Feel free to post a pic.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Firm notches? Or just well defined notches? Like what mouse wheel can you compare to that you like? IMO the zowies are too firm. I can't think of a reason to be that firm. My 3.0 seems pretty close to ideal for me if it just didn't have the auto scroll bug. The FinalMouse wheel is pretty good except too hard to press.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Creizai*
> 
> Any chance you could post up some pictures of your duck tape + wmo feet? It would save me a trip to the store for sand paper.


I stuck two layers of this grey duct tape on the feet and cut it to the shape afterwards, then took double-sided tape to place them on the mouse bottom.
Here some pics: (Maybe you get an idea of how thick they are or how low the feet indentations are)

   

I just noticed one of the lower feet moved a little, or maybe i did place it bad in the first place.
They are not perfectly placed anyways, its really hard for me to do without markings. =)

I choosed the duct tape because its a little "softer?" than any other material and if the mosue bottom, or where you place the feet, is not as even they can adjust a little when the mouse is on the pad. (Atleast i think they do =))

To have them placed like on the WMO i had to sand the indentations nearly even with the rest of the bottom, as you can see.
If you do sand it, i suggest you to cover everything else on the mouse bottom up with tape and then put the mouse as a whole on top of the sand paper on an even ground and then sand it.
I tried to sand them one by one at first but it wasnt really accurate and the mouse wobbled a little afterwards. ^^


----------



## RentoN

Yay my Aurora finally arrived (well not quite, I'll have to pick it up at a place which is a 1 hour drive away from me, since there has been some issues with customs)!
Did anyone test if a DA 3.5G cable works with the Aurora?
I'll give the aurora cable a try, but since a lot of people didn't seem to like it and since I still have a DA cable I might change it.
Is there any chance a mouse can break if I plug in the wrong cable or is it save to just plug it in and see if it works?


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Yay my Aurora finally arrived (well not quite, I'll have to pick it up at a place which is a 1 hour drive away from me, since there has been some issues with customs)!
> Did anyone test if a DA 3.5G cable works with the Aurora?
> I'll give the aurora cable a try, but since a lot of people didn't seem to like it and since I still have a DA cable I might change it.
> Is there any chance a mouse can break if I plug in the wrong cable or is it save to just plug it in and see if it works?


No, the mouse will break.

The pins are in the opposite direction. Replug the pins, or cut the plastic on the DA cable so it fits the other way around.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Yay my Aurora finally arrived (well not quite, I'll have to pick it up at a place which is a 1 hour drive away from me, since there has been some issues with customs)!
> Did anyone test if a DA 3.5G cable works with the Aurora?
> I'll give the aurora cable a try, but since a lot of people didn't seem to like it and since I still have a DA cable I might change it.
> Is there any chance a mouse can break if I plug in the wrong cable or is it save to just plug it in and see if it works?


it will work, and i guess the wires are in the right order already.
if not then change them to the right order, you will see when you unplug the original cable anyways.
when the outer wires are swapped(red with black) you smoke the PCB, but just FYI.


----------



## Creizai

I just did this swap, while this isn't a sure fire way, just check the colors and the location. I just slapped on my EC2 EVO cable because the colors and pin layout were the same.









Also when you take apart the mouse, Lift Back up first and then when the front is having problems it needs to be slid back. The front actually don't get pulled up like the back. I didn't think the old cable was horrible but once I switched cables this mouse got even better. Just wish it wasn't grey


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> it will work, and i guess the wires are in the right order already.
> if not then change them to the right order, you will see when you unplug the original cable anyways.
> when the outer wires are swapped(red with black) you smoke the PCB, but just FYI.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*


Hmm ok, so I just found a SS Kinzu V2 cable on top of the DA one.
From looking on a picture it looks like the order on the Aurora is B/B/G/W/R.
The Kinzu has B/B/W/G/R. So just green and white switched. That should be save to plug in, since black and red are not switched, right?
DA cable has R/W/G/B/B. So just like acid_reptile said. I'd have to cut it to get it fit in the right way round.


----------



## Thunderbringer

@Renton No need to cut! Bend the plastic a bit (see below) and pull the cable out. Once you have your desired order, bend the plastic piece(s) back down again.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *iBzzz*
> 
> With the WMO mod is there no way to maintain the DPI switch? I frequently change between 400 and 1600 (depending what I'm doing).
> 
> 
> 
> I need some days off from work to be arsed to do it but I was planning on pasting it stuck inside somewhere and have a really really tiny hole in the WMO shell (similar to the holes in smartphones you need to push in to open the tray for the simcard).
> 
> Would be using 800 dpi most of the time but just in case I would be able to switch to 400/1600 for those "messed up" games.
> 
> I don't need an on-the-fly switch, but having the 400/800/1600 option is handy.
> 
> *About your malfunction problem:*
> 
> Try another mousepad (Savu, whilst doing 4.8 m/s, also had issues with certain surfaces)
> If not ok then ---> Broken Aurora?? Mine doesn't malfunction at all.
> (using Puretrak Talent)
> 
> Thunderbringer should get an Aurora tbh, he always does all kinds of mods that seem impossible.
Click to expand...

I already had the pleasure to deal with a Aurora (pre-release). Its PCB did not allow the original WMO wheel holder, so i had to make those manual. The tiny DPI button is cool and works great. In the example below i have used a plastic pin (reversed T, so it can not fall out). The swtich is glued directly below the tiny hole.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## povohat

I got my fake WMOs today, and they look to be identical to the one that BST documented in this post on ESR. I'm documenting as much as I can, but I won't get a chance to do any modding for a few days.

Just for fun I did some basic tests on the sensor. The markings on the chip appear to say PAN3512K-TJZA, and testing reveals max speed of 0.4m/s at 125Hz, overclockable to 0.6m/s at 1000Hz. Counts clip at 127 and 32 respectively, and there is a total tracking meltdown probably around 1.5m/s where the mouse starts reporting super long polling intervals and crazy counts. Normal desktop cursor movement at slow speeds often feels like it is either skipping pixels or dropping movement. Mspaint circles are very wobbly.

If anyone is interested, this is the specific item I ordered. The real item looks significantly more fake than the picture, as you'll see when I get the pictures up.


----------



## RentoN

So I finally got my Aurora today.
My mini review:
Shape: Really good for me. As good or even better as FK, and the FK has been the best shape for me so far.

Weight: Very good. 70g, not many mice are lighter and afaik none with 3090 and side buttons is. Probably the best thing about this mouse.

Sensor: Just like you'd expect a well implemented 3090 to be. PCS seems to be higher than my FKs acctually. LOD is perfect. Not quite as low as FKs but almost and FKs LOD was a little too low for me personally anyways. 400 and 800 DPI both seem to work well, so thats a really nice thing coming from the FK









Buttons: M1 and M2 (especially M1) are hard to klick, even harder than the FKs, even though they are omrons.
I think the complaints about the mouse wheel are not justified. I like it. Still can feel the individual steps, but at the same time is easy to scroll and not as loud and stiff as the FK or as muddy as for example the G100s. Little hard to click though, but I've seen worse.
Side buttons are good aswell, but I never had a mouse that managed to mess those up.

Cable: HORRIBLE! Just horrible. Far and away the worst mouse cable I've ever had. And I'm really not picky when it comes to cables. Never changed one before, even liked the G100s cable which a lot of people hated. But this one I just had to change.

Build quality: Feels and looks kinda cheap. But I guess it's hard to make a mouse really light and at the same time look and feel high quality.
Nothing specific to complain about though, more like a first impression thing. Nothing rattles, mouse doesn't give in or bend or anything when you squeeze it/applie unnatural amounts of pressure to different parts etc.

Overall a solid mouse. Like 1 or 2 years ago it would've been a great mouse, but these days quite a few mice can offer what this one has, some with a even better sensor.
Only thing this mouse might have that you can't have anywhere else: 3090 with side buttons and only 70g. As far as I'm aware there's no other mouse that has all 3 of those and no big flaws (I think Finalmouse 2015 is really light aswell and even has a 3310?).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thunderbringer*
> 
> @Renton No need to cut! Bend the plastic a bit (see below) and pull the cable out. Once you have your desired order, bend the plastic piece(s) back down again.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Thanks a lot! Worked really well like this, so I'm glad I didn't have to cut anything








Unfortunately destroyed M4 button while opening the mouse (cable was wrapped around the piece of plastic that holds the button and broke it off, since I had to applie some pressure to open the mouse so it opened fast when it did), but that has nothing to do with the trick you showed me


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Just for fun I did some basic tests on the sensor. The markings on the chip appear to say PAN3512K-TJZA, and testing reveals max speed of 0.4m/s at 125Hz, overclockable to 0.6m/s at 1000Hz. Counts clip at 127 and 32 respectively, and there is a total tracking meltdown probably around 1.5m/s where the mouse starts reporting super long polling intervals and crazy counts. Normal desktop cursor movement at slow speeds often feels like it is either skipping pixels or dropping movement. Mspaint circles are very wobbly.


Yikes.

The shell? Is the texture, etc OK?


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> The shell? Is the texture, etc OK?


I actually prefer this fake WMO coating to real WMOs. It's a little less shiny and a bit rougher.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Cable: HORRIBLE! Just horrible. Far and away the worst mouse cable I've ever had. And I'm really not picky when it comes to cables. Never changed one before, even liked the G100s cable which a lot of people hated. But this one I just had to change.


The original cord of the CM Storm Spawn was way worse. That one was horrible. The Auroras isn't good but also not as bad. Its just the combination of a light mouse and a heavy cord that doesn't feel good. Still, I know the Spawns original cord. You may not believe it but compared to that one the Auroras is quite decent


----------



## scardd

I decided to give the Aurora a go aswell.
It arrived on saturday and from the outside mine actually looks and feels well made. The clicks are good, the scroll feels nice (even though i would like the nothches to be a bit firmer) and the shape and weight are awesome.

My happyness went away quickly tho since my mouse is completly dead. the only thing that happens when i plug it in is that the LEDs are shining. The mouse doesnt react at all in windows.
Tried installing the driver countless times - restarted the pc million times (glad i recently got a ssd







).

Then i contacted the support but since then no answer yet.
Does anyone have any experience with the support?! how long does it generally take for them to answer to a ticket?!

Hope it gets resolved quickly since i really like the shape.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scardd*
> 
> My happyness went away quickly tho since my mouse is completly dead. the only thing that happens when i plug it in is that the LEDs are shining. The mouse doesnt react at all in windows.
> Tried installing the driver countless times - restarted the pc million times (glad i recently got a ssd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).


Forget about the driver, if there's no recognition on the desktop of your new mouse I suspect the cable may be the problem, failure to enable a firm connection with the pcb.

ONLY answer open up the mouse and see how she looks.


----------



## Ellie1982

LOD is perfect?! My Aurora have LOD 4-5 CD - it' s horrible!


----------



## iBzzz

Decided to keep my aurora so cancelled the return rather than ordering another one.

Opened it up, took the shell apart and bent the left click plastic and after the second attempt my left click is now perfect! Hopefully it will stay that way but finally I can escape my Kinzu v2.

P.S May swap the cable also, have a spare EC2 I could butcher.


----------



## scardd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> ONLY answer open up the mouse and see how she looks.


Yes i thought about that aswell (the cable is pretty annoying anyways so it has to be replaced at one point. Only thing that makes me hesitate at the moment is that i am not sure if I can still send it back after i opened it and tried to fix the problem myself.


----------



## Creizai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thunderbringer*
> 
> @Renton No need to cut! Bend the plastic a bit (see below) and pull the cable out. Once you have your desired order, bend the plastic piece(s) back down again.


I did a quick check with the deathadder 2013, since I wanted to retain my EC2 EVO. I glanced at the wires and then didn't look like I needed to switch any wires. Plugged up the Aurora and it didn't light up







. Opened her back up and the white/green wires needed to be switched after all







. No soldering and no cutting, you made this super easy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iBzzz*
> 
> Decided to keep my aurora so cancelled the return rather than ordering another one.
> 
> Opened it up, took the shell apart and bent the left click plastic and after the second attempt my left click is now perfect! Hopefully it will stay that way but finally I can escape my Kinzu v2.
> 
> P.S May swap the cable also, have a spare EC2 I could butcher.


Do this ASAP, I took my EC2 Cable as a test and my god it was night and day.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ellie1982*
> 
> LOD is perfect?! My Aurora have LOD 4-5 CD - it' s horrible!


Stack with extra mouse feet, sadly it won't be zowie low if you have that preference.


----------



## CorruptBE

I like high LOD.

I'm weird


----------



## nyshak

I used the FK14 before and was worried the LOD of the Aurora could be too high for my tastes. But it's ok. Qpad UC90 here. Maybe the LOD is higher on colored pads?


----------



## filo

Hey BST if you see this... my Order:#100000341 was not delivered, it was meant to ship 24.12.2014, was the mouse even sent?

Its almost a month now







.. .cmon man, wanna try those delayed rocket jumps


----------



## hahahoha

received and playing with my aurora for an hour. love it. i hated how the bottom of zowie fk and kinzu bump into the bottom of my palm so shape wise this is definitely the best mouse i've ever owned.

One question, regarding the dpi, 400 feels slower than 400. I play csgo and with my fk (450dpi) i use 2.4, while with aurora i need to pump it up to 3.15 to achieve the same 36cm/360. Is this normal? Based on calculation it should have been 2.7. Not that i care, just find this interesting.


----------



## a_ak57

Check the true DPI using enotus or microe's program. IIRC the FK's 450 was more like 500 for most and if your aurora is more like 370 then that could explain the difference.


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I like high LOD.
> 
> I'm weird


I like the LOD too. But I have selfmade 2mm thick PTFE feet








Actually I had no problem with default feet either. Never measured but I think Aurora's LOD is the same as logitech's and razer's ones or maybe even lower.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hahahoha*
> 
> One question, regarding the dpi, 400 feels slower than 400. I play csgo and with my fk (450dpi) i use 2.4, while with aurora i need to pump it up to 3.15 to achieve the same 36cm/360. Is this normal? Based on calculation it should have been 2.7. Not that i care, just find this interesting.


Yep. Sensitivity is different. I was using 2.6 @ 400 dpi with Roccat KPM and now it's 1.55 @ 800 dpi with Aurora. I measured with my pad.
Also I prefer to use 800 dpi because it's a native resolution of A3090 afair and I got 1.5 m/s higher max speed @ enotus test than with 400 dpi.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

If LOD is too high for you, add the extra set of mouse feet and do the tape trick.


----------



## Maximillion

I caved and got this mouse off Amazon. Overall opinion on it is positive. These new sub-75g mice (FinalMouse, Aurora) are my cup of tea. The first thing I did actually was the tape trick (didn't need to apply a second set of feet) I find high LOD distracting after being spoiled by Zowie. I do have a couple questions though...

1) I tried to swap out the cord for the one off my monoprice EC1 eVo and when I did the right click button acted as a DPI switch. What did I do wrong? All the colors on the wires were in the same order.

2) Anyone else having stability issues at 1000hz? I can't even get it to reach 1K. It seems to peak in the high 800s or low 900s.


----------



## povohat

I used a cable from my old FK'13 and it worked fine, not sure whats up with that button problem.

I completed my wmora with a fake wmo today. I will do a writeup about the specifics of the fake wmo and mod itself at some point, but if anyone wants to browse the pictures, I have them sitting here - http://drok-radnik.com/junk/fakewmora/


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hahahoha*
> 
> received and playing with my aurora for an hour. love it. i hated how the bottom of zowie fk and kinzu bump into the bottom of my palm so shape wise this is definitely the best mouse i've ever owned.
> 
> One question, regarding the dpi, 400 feels slower than 400. I play csgo and with my fk (450dpi) i use 2.4, while with aurora i need to pump it up to 3.15 to achieve the same 36cm/360. Is this normal? Based on calculation it should have been 2.7. Not that i care, just find this interesting.


Aside from slight dpi inaccuracies, this explains a majority of what you're experiencing. http://www.overclock.net/t/1522415/the-importance-of-sensor-positioning

Assuming you didn't take controlled measurements for your cm/360 and are just basing off of feel.


----------



## Creizai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hahahoha*
> 
> received and playing with my aurora for an hour. love it. i hated how the bottom of zowie fk and kinzu bump into the bottom of my palm so shape wise this is definitely the best mouse i've ever owned.
> 
> One question, regarding the dpi, 400 feels slower than 400. I play csgo and with my fk (450dpi) i use 2.4, while with aurora i need to pump it up to 3.15 to achieve the same 36cm/360. Is this normal? Based on calculation it should have been 2.7. Not that i care, just find this interesting.


So you're finger tipping the mouse?


----------



## delledonne

I caved and got one as well. Just received it today, no differing lmb/rmb heights but right click is noticeably crisper than the left. Not a big deal though.

Everything was working normally, so then I installed the software to bump up the polling rate, hit apply, and now my scrolling is messed up. Scrolling down does nothing, and scrolling up now scrolls down. All the settings in the software are where they're suppose to be at though, and the other buttons do what they're suppose to, so idk, I'll mess with it later.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delledonne*
> 
> I caved and got one as well. Just received it today, no differing lmb/rmb heights but right click is noticeably crisper than the left. Not a big deal though.
> 
> Everything was working normally, so then I installed the software to bump up the polling rate, hit apply, and now my scrolling is messed up. Scrolling down does nothing, and scrolling up now scrolls down. All the settings in the software are where they're suppose to be at though, and the other buttons do what they're suppose to, so idk, I'll mess with it later.


According to bst you might try and reset the mouse using a different pc. Thats the reason, why I have stayed clear of chaning the polling rate. This and the reset option of the software seem to be bugged. At least thats the impression i get from what people report.

And disable the autostart of the ninox "monitor" or uninstall the software completely once you're done.


----------



## espn

Only Logitech offers 3 years warranty right? Warranty part is the best!?


----------



## bst

Yes, I recommend not using the software. Even though on some PCs it works perfectly, obviously there are PCs it doesn't work on. There will be a new software, until then its best not to use it, unless you really need 1khz. Personally I haven't experienced these problems, every PC I've used it on, its worked perfectly, so its strange, I guess it might be down to how different USB chipsets/drivers work, since all the software does is send settings over USB to the mouse (its not so different to it being driverless, just using software instead of having to hold down buttons on the mouse when you plug it in etc., just that there is an extra stage is has to go through by sending the data from the PC to the mouse).

The mouse by default runs at 500hz, the DPI steps are 800/1600/4000. Really 800 (red) is the best step anyway. And tbh, 500hz is more stable, too. 1khz gives a slight improvement in PCS, but not a huge amount.

On a different note, PayPal has said they should be unlimiting my account in 72 working hours, so next week I will finally have the freedom to refund people who need it O_O


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> On a different note, PayPal has said they should be unlimiting my account in 72 working hours, so next week I will finally have the freedom to refund people who need it O_O


Means, you'll take these from the Support-Tickets? As I still don't know if my mouse has been sent out or I'll get a refund.


----------



## resis

Had no problems with the software on my end. Only thing is that if I launch the software (I have it not set to auto start, but launch if need) the cursor freezes for some seconds and the custom LED light changes colour for that time (does not happen with the preset colours).


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Had no problems with the software on my end. Only thing is that if I launch the software (I have it not set to auto start, but launch if need) the cursor freezes for some seconds and the custom LED light changes colour for that time (does not happen with the preset colours).


I didn't heed to much attention to it, as I've seen other mice do it to in some occasions (probably related to getting the data from the firmware?).

As long as it works it's fine.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I didn't heed to much attention to it, as I've seen other mice do it to in some occasions (probably related to getting the data from the firmware?).
> 
> As long as it works it's fine.


I don't like it, its not necessary. Its a bug imo, because it should only send settings to the mouse when you click apply (thats what its doing btw), it shouldn't do it automatically, otherwise you get the problem where when you install the software, it won't read the mouse settings, it'll just reset it to default. Its another thing I asked them to change









To read the settings it doesn't need to pause like it does. What its doing is reloading the profile that was last set (or the default one if you just installed the software).


----------



## thizito

So bst, i can overclock with the old method to 1000hz without use the software?
Ill be very happy
Anyway, i'm so happy with my old razer Salmosa that i bought another one today XD
I have 3 salmosas now (1 tiny asian), doing some mods.. sidegrip smoother texture / WD40 in shell for squeakysoundclicks / sandpaper to make smoother coating.. etc.. And just blowup one abyssus3.5g trying to make better coating/shape for the sensor but, i prefer salmosa.

I wanna see if Aurora can TEASE me


----------



## delledonne

Weird, scroll wheel is working fine now.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> I used a cable from my old FK'13 and it worked fine, not sure whats up with that button problem.
> 
> I completed my wmora with a fake wmo today. I will do a writeup about the specifics of the fake wmo and mod itself at some point, but if anyone wants to browse the pictures, I have them sitting here - http://drok-radnik.com/junk/fakewmora/


Nice +1

I want to know more about the mwhell holder. Did u have to mod it? How does the mwheel feel vs. the Aurora. On the fake G1 they are in the right spot, but can't really be used. Just didn't find out, how to get the right feeling for it. Thats why im not using the wmo (with the DVD case wheelholder) or fake G1 shape right now. (im back to 800CPI genuine G1 until i feel like modding again.)


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delledonne*
> 
> Weird, scroll wheel is working fine now.


Maybe i found out why the scrolling doesn't feel much defined for some people.


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Nice +1
> 
> I want to know more about the mwhell holder. Did u have to mod it? How does the mwheel feel vs. the Aurora. On the fake G1 they are in the right spot, but can't really be used. Just didn't find out, how to get the right feeling for it. Thats why im not using the wmo (with the DVD case wheelholder) or fake G1 shape right now. (im back to 800CPI genuine G1 until i feel like modding again.)


Fake WMO did not require any mouse wheel holder modifications. There are issues with this version though. The scroll wheel sits too far to the right. I will need to do some very precise modding to the mouse wheel axle to get it to sit inside the encoder a little more.

You can also see I had to increase the thickness of the part of the wheel that contacts with the middle button, as the travel was too far. The button travel on M1/M2 is acceptable, but could be better. I will try this mod again on my 2nd fake WMO and remove less of the front supports that the PCB sits on, which should hopefully help with all 3 buttons. Everything else is fine.


----------



## James N

When will you come out with a bigger sized version ? I am using palm grip and i have quite big hands. I tried it at a friends house and it gives me hand cramps due to its size.


----------



## hahahoha

nvm


----------



## resis

k


----------



## seekax

I got my Aurora a little more than two weeks ago and from day one the left mouse button was very stiff. I immediately opened a support ticket, but there hasn't been a reply yet.
This seems to be a common issue with the mouse, so why can't we resolve this.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seekax*
> 
> I got my Aurora a little more than two weeks ago and from day one the left mouse button was very stiff. I immediately opened a support ticket, but there hasn't been a reply yet.
> This seems to be a common issue with the mouse, so why can't we resolve this.


I got mine yesterday and the right click was a fair bit stiffer than the left but after about an hour of use it really loosened up and is now fine, think I got lucky with that.
Nice mouse I'm enjoying it, liking it a lot more than the g302


----------



## seekax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> I got mine yesterday and the right click was a fair bit stiffer than the left but after about an hour of use it really loosened up and is now fine, think I got lucky with that.
> Nice mouse I'm enjoying it, liking it a lot more than the g302


I tried it for a few hours, didn't get any better. The LMB feels worse than most 5 euro crap mice after being abused for years. The RMB feels fantastic.
Quote:


> The RMA number must be very clearly marked on the packaging which you use to return the item, do not write the RMA number on the product packaging, only the shipping packaging. You must also pay for the shipping costs involved with returning the product. We recommend that you use a shipping method which is traceable and insured, as risk of loss or damage to the returned product only passes to Ninox once the item has been received by Ninox. As long as the returns procedure outlined in this article is followed, you will receive a refund of the purchase price you originally paid for the returned product (this does not include the original shipping and handling charges that you paid), within 45 days. If the returns procedure in this article is not followed, Ninox reserves the right to accept the return of the product on such terms that it may determine at its sole discretion.


I didn't find a form i can fill out, so i guess i'll get the RMA number from the support (which isn't replying, so no progress there). I think it's quite ridiculous that i have to pay for shipping, i don't get reimbursed for the original shipping costs and i can only get my money back, not a replacement mouse. That's 20€ down the drain for absolutely nothing, more than half of the price of the mouse.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yes, I recommend not using the software. Even though on some PCs it works perfectly, obviously there are PCs it doesn't work on. There will be a new software, until then its best not to use it, unless you really need 1khz.


I would ask for an ETA for the new software but then it is you


----------



## Xanatos

bst, refund when?


----------



## RentoN

So after using my Aurora for a while now I have to say that the sensor doesn't seem to work as well as I initially thought.
After using the mouse for a lot longer than it useally takes me to get used to a new mouse, I noticed that I still have a hard time making small adjustments to my aim and that my aim emediately got better when I tried switching back to my FK, even though I hadn't used it in a couple of days.
I did some testing and noticed that when I move my mouse cursor slowly over my desktop the movement doesn't seem to be consistant. The cursor keeps slowing down/stopping for a moment.
Since I switched cables I thought that might cause the problem, so I switched back to the original cable, but I still get the same problem.
Also tried using different DPI (400 and 800), both with 500 and 1000Hz.
Still didn't change anything.
Also tested with other mice to see if maybe this was normal and I'm just unable to move my hand consistantly enoug or something.
But with other mice I tied the movement was smooth and I didn't notice the same effect.
Did anyone else notice something similar? Hope I'm imagining things or maybe just made some mistake that caused this problem, since I still want to support this project.
I'll get a secound Aurora soon(ish) from Massdrop support (since they still think my first one was lost in-transit and after waiting for 7 weeks for the first one I'm not gonna tell them otherwise (







so I'll let you know if I have the same problems with the second one.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yes, I recommend not using the software. Even though on some PCs it works perfectly, obviously there are PCs it doesn't work on. There will be a new software, until then its best not to use it, unless you really need 1khz. Personally I haven't experienced these problems, every PC I've used it on, its worked perfectly, so its strange, I guess it might be down to how different USB chipsets/drivers work, since all the software does is send settings over USB to the mouse (its not so different to it being driverless, just using software instead of having to hold down buttons on the mouse when you plug it in etc., just that there is an extra stage is has to go through by sending the data from the PC to the mouse).
> 
> The mouse by default runs at 500hz, the DPI steps are 800/1600/4000. Really 800 (red) is the best step anyway. And tbh, 500hz is more stable, too. 1khz gives a slight improvement in PCS, but not a huge amount.
> 
> On a different note, PayPal has said they should be unlimiting my account in 72 working hours, so next week I will finally have the freedom to refund people who need it O_O


Sorry if I missed some previous post that answers this already, but what exactly are the problems with the drivers?
Does the driver program simply not work for some people (as in they can't use it to adjust the settings) or does it work but using is causing some issues with the mouse for some people (maybe like the one I described above).
If it's the latter: I already used the drivers and the mouse seems to save the settings I chose there (after uninstalling the drivers). How can reset my Aurora to the default settings (as in making it as if I never installed the drivers) to test if that's maybe whats causing the problem I have?


----------



## QLsya

I purchased 4 auroras! yes 4! and 3 of them got ruined with low pcs :/ the first one I pre-ordered got wrecked after I ran the "reset" function, the second one broke after changing between 500hz and 1000hz several times, and the third one all I did was set to 1000hz, uninstalled the software and then one day when my pc was booting up, it got ruined as well! The last 2 I got, all had really really mushy feeling left clicks as well :/ I've given up. Even the last one I received, although still working, feels awful when clicking the buttons and I can't even run it optimally at 1000hz since I can't install the software. If you have an aurora don't even think about touching the drivers.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seekax*
> 
> *I tried it for a few hours, didn't get any better. The LMB feels worse than most 5 euro crap mice after being abused for years. The RMB feels fantastic*.
> I didn't find a form i can fill out, so i guess i'll get the RMA number from the support (which isn't replying, so no progress there). I think it's quite ridiculous that i have to pay for shipping, i don't get reimbursed for the original shipping costs and i can only get my money back, not a replacement mouse. That's 20€ down the drain for absolutely nothing, more than half of the price of the mouse.


i went back to the computer this morning and my right mouse button was very hard again, I thought it was pretty weird so i looked down the front of the mouse and looked at the buttons gap and it looked like it had something stuck in there, so i held the mouse upside down and tried to shake the object out. Not sure if it came out and i couldnt hear anything rattle but it was fixed after that, so who knows? haha


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@RentoN & @QLsya, have you guys added the 2nd pair of feet that come with the mouse? Using double mouse feet fixed our malfunction speed problems.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> So after using my Aurora for a while now I have to say that the sensor doesn't seem to work as well as I initially thought.
> ..
> 
> I'll get a secound Aurora soon(ish) from Massdrop support (since they still think my first one was lost in-transit and after waiting for 7 weeks for the first one I'm not gonna tell them otherwise (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so I'll let you know if I have the same problems with the second one.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QLsya*
> 
> I purchased 4 auroras! yes 4! and 3 of them got ruined with low pcs :/ the first one I pre-ordered got wrecked.


While i didn't have the low pcs problems, i started to get hard time tracking on target in quake. (rail/flick shots were ok) I thought its because the shape/sensor position doesn't suit my playstyle. The Aurora internals in a logitech G1 shape worked very well before though. When i received another Aurora two days ago, i uninstalled the software and tried the stock Aurora, with untouched firmware and its original thick cable. Now the mouse feels almost perfect. My LG is still not as good as it used to be when doing my G1 shell testing, but at least it doesn't feel off anymore.

To be fair, this is the first time i use the Aurora again after 2 weeks, and i adjusted my sensitivity since then. Was playing with a logitech G1 (800cpi), G1 (1000cpi) and a mx300 (400cpi). Everything on default 125hz. (and i lowered my sens by 25%) So maybe im not the right person to judge this. I just recommend to anyone who ordered another Aurora to give it a try without installing the software. Please report in after that.

edit:
its important that you uninstall the software before pluggin in the mouse for the first time.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> I just recommend to anyone who ordered another Aurora to give it a try without installing the software. Please report in after that.
> 
> edit:
> its important that you uninstall the software before pluggin in the mouse for the first time.


Yeah, I'll try that once I get my secound aurora and I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## seekax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> i went back to the computer this morning and my right mouse button was very hard again, I thought it was pretty weird so i looked down the front of the mouse and looked at the buttons gap and it looked like it had something stuck in there, so i held the mouse upside down and tried to shake the object out. Not sure if it came out and i couldnt hear anything rattle but it was fixed after that, so who knows? haha


I just did that and i did get a rattle. Sounds like a loose screw or something.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seekax*
> 
> I just did that and i did get a rattle. Sounds like a loose screw or something.


That might be the mouse wheel rattling a bit if you shake the mouse. Try holding it and see if it goes away then. That's pretty normal. A lot of mice have this.


----------



## seekax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> That might be the mouse wheel rattling a bit if you shake the mouse. Try holding it and see if it goes away then. That's pretty normal. A lot of mice have this.


Nope, didn't stop. It sounds like there is something loose inside of the mouse like a plastic piece or a screw.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seekax*
> 
> Nope, didn't stop. It sounds like there is something loose inside of the mouse like a plastic piece or a screw.


EXACTLY what happened to me. I later opened up the mouse casing to see a small, dark grey, piece of plastic tumble out. It was about 4mm in length and 2mm in height and had a thin section.

After dislodging the beggar, the mouse is now quiet and everything works with no problems. Just worried why these mice come with a bit of plastic floating around inside randomly, until someone sets it free from it's incarceration







.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> EXACTLY what happened to me. I later opened up the mouse casing to see a small, dark grey, piece of plastic tumble out. It was about 4mm in length and 2mm in height and had a thin section.
> 
> After dislodging the beggar, the mouse is now quiet and everything works with no problems. Just worried why these mice come with a bit of plastic floating around inside randomly, until someone sets it free from it's incarceration
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Weird I have the same rattling sound but I didn't find anything inside. Now I'm tempted to open it up again and look specifically for it, but those side buttons are such a b*** to get back in place when closing the mouse up again...


----------



## seekax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> EXACTLY what happened to me. I later opened up the mouse casing to see a small, dark grey, piece of plastic tumble out. It was about 4mm in length and 2mm in height and had a thin section.
> 
> After dislodging the beggar, the mouse is now quiet and everything works with no problems. Just worried why these mice come with a bit of plastic floating around inside randomly, until someone sets it free from it's incarceration
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I've been contemplating opening the mouse for days, but there is a sticker covering the screw and removing it would void the warranty. Since removing the loose piece won't fix the mouse button i think i'll rather leave it closed.


----------



## bst

This is how you can fix the buttons, it takes about 10-15 mins, or just 5 mins if you're lucky and it works fine on the first try:

1. Remove the screw under the QC sticker, then lift up the top half at the back and pull backwards (away from the front). Then the mouse should be open. (Be gentle!)
2. Unplug the cable that goes from the side buttons (you don't have to, but it makes it easier)
3. Follow the steps in the pictures below:




Now you have the button separated, you can bend it up or down, where the line/groove is (its the thinnest part of the button near the middle). You only need to bend it a VERY small amount, only enough to make it adjust to the right position.

An alternative to bending the button is to put something in the bit that hooks onto the mouse (the bit that stops you from being able to pull the button up too far, its the part that makes contact with the switch), if you put something in there, like a few stickers layered up, then the mouse button won't be able to raise up. Here is a picture showing it:



5. Put the button back on, and test, if its sitting up too high or low, it just needs another small bend, so you might have to try it about 3-4 times before it feels right (repeat the steps in the pictures attached until it feels good).

[To put the top case back on, slot it into the front of the mouse, then as you bring it down, angle it away from the side buttons slightly. Then as you push it down, it will clear the side buttons. Then, when it gets to the point where you can't angle it away any more (because its forced to line up with the bottom case), it should have cleared the side buttons enough.]

As for the warranty voiding issue, just be careful, no one is going to know you done it if you're gentle with it and replace the sticker afterwards (use a razor blade to remove it if you want to make it look completely untouched).

Hope this helps some people, I'm sorry to anyone who has the problem







But it really isn't a difficult fix, especially if you've ever opened a mouse before.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seekax*
> 
> I've been contemplating opening the mouse for days, but there is a sticker covering the screw and removing it would void the warranty. Since removing the loose piece won't fix the mouse button i think i'll rather leave it closed.


You only need to remove one screw to open the mouse and unless your mouse is different than mine that one isn't covered up.


----------



## seekax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> This is how you can fix the buttons, it takes about 10-15 mins, or just 5 mins if you're lucky and it works fine on the first try:
> 
> 1. Remove the screw under the QC sticker, then lift up the top half at the back and pull backwards (away from the front). Then the mouse should be open. (Be gentle!)
> 2. Unplug the cable that goes from the side buttons (you don't have to, but it makes it easier)
> 3. Follow the steps in the pictures below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you have the button separated, you can bend it up or down, where the line/groove is (its the thinnest part of the button near the middle). You only need to bend it a VERY small amount, only enough to make it adjust to the right position.
> 
> An alternative to bending the button is to put something in the bit that hooks onto the mouse (the bit that stops you from being able to pull the button up too far, its the part that makes contact with the switch), if you put something in there, like a few stickers layered up, then the mouse button won't be able to raise up. Here is a picture showing it:
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Put the button back on, and test, if its sitting up too high or low, it just needs another small bend, so you might have to try it about 3-4 times before it feels right (repeat the steps in the pictures attached until it feels good).
> 
> [To put the top case back on, slot it into the front of the mouse, then as you bring it down, angle it away from the side buttons slightly. Then as you push it down, it will clear the side buttons. Then, when it gets to the point where you can't angle it away any more (because its forced to line up with the bottom case), it should have cleared the side buttons enough.]
> 
> As for the warranty voiding issue, just be careful, no one is going to know you done it if you're gentle with it and replace the sticker afterwards (use a razor blade to remove it if you want to make it look completely untouched).
> 
> Hope this helps some people, I'm sorry to anyone who has the problem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it really isn't a difficult fix, especially if you've ever opened a mouse before.


Thanks a bunch mate, LMB works flawlessly now.
Also this is the little sucker which dangled around in the mouse. It's one of the clips from step 1.


I'll finally be able to test the mouse properly now, it feels a bit small to my hand, so i'm not sure whether it will become my permanent choice.
Thanks bst for helping me, i have to say though that you should probably show the support on your website a little bit more love. I know you are pretty much running the show solo, but not getting a reply for three weeks just makes the customer feel like you don't give a crap. At least drop a reply telling the customer that you are on it.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> An alternative to bending the button is to put something in the bit that hooks onto the mouse (the bit that stops you from being able to pull the button up too far, its the part that makes contact with the switch), if you put something in there, like a few stickers layered up, then the mouse button won't be able to raise up. Here is a picture showing it:


This could actually be an easy permanent solution for newer batches, simply add something to it or slightly change that part in the production so the piece of plastic is fatter?

Seems easier to do then getting the whole tension on the top shell right.


----------



## copterguise

Processing... Are you for real, bst?


----------



## kackbratze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> This is how you can fix the buttons, [...]


edit:

thanks! (should've read it first.







)


----------



## seekax

I also stacked the second set of skates on top of the already attached ones. Definitely recommended, else the aurora just scrapes across the mousepad. Now it's pretty much flying across it, really nice.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seekax*
> 
> I also stacked the second set of skates on top of the already attached ones. Definitely recommended, else the aurora just scrapes across the mousepad. Now it's pretty much flying across it, really nice.


I think I'll have to do this, it does scrape a little bit


----------



## writer21

Got the mouse today.

+Loving the weight.... Why can't all mice be this light? Lighter than my Zowie fk2
+Didn't have an issue with software. Running 400 dpi @ 1000hz. Then I uninstalled.
+Sensor is on par with Zowie Fk2. I'm also not an expert in this area.
+Easier to grip and pick up than the Zowie Fk2. The coating is more grippy where with the FK2 I have to get hands a little moist to pick up the mouse easily.
+No malfuntion issues but I also play with quake accel mouse filter program in windows 8.1.

-The clicks are ok for me. Mouse1 looks lower than mouse2 but no issues when it comes to gameplay.
-Cord is not the greatest but it's not the worse either.

This mouse because of the lightweight and 3090 sensor allows you to be so accurate. I love the FK2 which does have better quality but I also wish it was much lighter like this mouse. I will stick with Aurora for Quakelive and switch to Fk2 for other games. If BST comes out with FK2 or WMO like shell with 3310 sensor and same light weight I don't see how any other mice can compete especially for FPS.

For one person to create this mouse it's simply amazing.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

The underside looks quite similar to the old razer viper. God I wish I could remember what razer rebadged for that mouse. Manufacturer started with a "k" I think.


----------



## kackbratze

I have a really big problem:

when I lift the mouse up it behaves really messed up. it moves from the left side of the monitor to the right side in a matter of ms. absolutely unplayable like that obv.

there doesnt seem to be anything on the lens. no hair, no dust or anything.

is that a known issue? anyone know a fix?

thanks in advance

PS: ive already openend a support ticket on ninox.org


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kackbratze*
> 
> I have a really big problem:
> 
> when I lift the mouse up it behaves really messed up. it moves from the left side of the monitor to the right side in a matter of ms. absolutely unplayable like that obv.
> 
> there doesnt seem to be anything on the lens. no hair, no dust or anything.
> 
> is that a known issue? anyone know a fix?
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
> PS: ive already openend a support ticket on ninox.org


Just switch the profile and the problem should be gone.


----------



## thizito

Got the mice today, didnt used driver
overclocked to 1000hz and using red dpi 800
perfect. flawless.. did tapefix+hyperglides

But. i wanna see my buttons inside

How i open the shell? I dont wanna break the shell , as i only have one aurora
Just wanna make an inspection inside
It is just like abyssus/salmosa? 1 screw and upper part slide ? mine looks harder to open the upper part


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Got the mice today, didnt used driver
> overclocked to 1000hz and using red dpi 800
> perfect. flawless.. did tapefix+hyperglides
> 
> But. i wanna see my buttons inside
> 
> How i open the shell? I dont wanna break the shell , as i only have one aurora
> Just wanna make an inspection inside
> It is just like abyssus/salmosa? 1 screw and upper part slide ? mine looks harder to open the upper part


Dude, seriously?

BST JUST explained that in detail........ http://www.overclock.net/t/1240739/bsts-gaming-mouse/2600_50#post_23483215


----------



## CorruptBE

The facepalm is real.

It's not like having to search an entire thread, it's in the previous page :x


----------



## Maximillion




----------



## MaximilianKohler

First post of same page for me : )


----------



## thizito

I saw this explanation, but my shell was harder to open.. and dont wanna break it..

anyway opened and switch cable


----------



## CeeSA

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kackbratze*
> 
> ....


I knew this problem....
For me it disappeared after switching the dpi w/ the dpi button. But that last not for long...

I reinstalled the software and program the mouse again - removed the software. After that, it seems the error is gone.
But I did not use this mouse for a long time....


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Just letting you know that bst's latest self imposed deadline has (once again) long expired and still hasn't issued a single refund nor shipped hundreds of orders, in over 4 months and counting.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> On a different note, PayPal has said they should be unlimiting my account in 72 working hours, so next week I will finally have the freedom to refund people who need it O_O


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> Just letting you know that bst's latest self imposed deadline has (once again) long expired and still hasn't issued a single refund nor shipped hundreds of orders, in over 4 months and counting.


Par for the course then


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> Just letting you know that bst's latest self imposed deadline has (once again) long expired and still hasn't issued a single refund nor shipped hundreds of orders, in over 4 months and counting.


That's what paypal said (72 hours), but instead of taking the limit off, they asked me for even more info, some of which I don't have, and every time I try to call them about it, they're engaged. I have to try again tomorrow because I'm at a trade show at the moment. Also kind of hard to explain properly because I'm writing this on my phone :/


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> That's what paypal said (72 hours), but instead of taking the limit off, they asked me for even more info, some of which I don't have, and every time I try to call them about it, they're engaged. I have to try again tomorrow because I'm at a trade show at the moment. Also kind of hard to explain properly because I'm writing this on my phone :/


That reasoning is inexcusable from your end after four months and counting, especially for a product with so many quality control issues. Plus it's quite funny that you only told that explanation to your customers after being questioned about it, instead of having some self initiative to keep us updated on your self imposed deadlines.

There's a reason why PayPal restricted your account in first place, which is that this whole thing looks like a scam, whether it actually is or not. PayPal itself is wondering that and some of us are as well, after this whole mess. Is it?

If you really wanted to fulfill your obligations you would:
1) Send the 'processing' packages, to those that as of now haven't asked for a refund for that reason. There's several pending orders to be shipped after all this time. Also note we paid for a tracking number too which you didn't provide for several of the actually sent orders, so I'll assume you used a cheaper shipping method than what was paid for and in the process you kept the extra money. PayPal has nothing to do with either, at all.
2) Answer the ticket requests on ninox.org. According to what I've read here and on ESR, you haven't even replied to a single one. Once again PayPal is unrelated.
3) Issue the asked refunds with a separate credit card and PayPal account, both for packages that weren't even sent and also for those with quality control or malfunction issues. Could also use somebody else's account too then pay him/her via bank transaction or cash.

I'm most likely not as well versed as you are on international transactions, but even I could resolve the third issue in a couple of minutes, which is what your customers are mainly asking for. From that piece of info alone that I can tell Ninox is not much interested in issuing refunds, if it ever will.

And for the next time and also applicable to whatever you do in life afterwards, the best answer is to just provide what's asked, without any further drama nor explanations/excuses nor asking for extra info. What customers asked for is a refund; as such all other indirect or unrelated answers to that are wrong so keep them to yourself. We don't want to know all that and such approach you took is what spawned all this. In the end you could angrily reply to this post and so on, but if I get my money's worth (or an answer that includes a definitive deadline) then I will be satisfied, because that's the only thing I asked for.
Oh and secondly, it's not good publicity for Ninox to keep on disappearing and hiding. In this whole process (since 2011) you have gone missing for months, if not years total, despite the running deadlines. Maybe Ninox won't continue as a brand after all the negative publicity, but if you take the same approach then the same will continue to happen to your future companies.

edit: for those that might find this post a bit over the top, read this (#293).
http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2685037


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kackbratze*
> 
> I have a really big problem:
> 
> when I lift the mouse up it behaves really messed up. it moves from the left side of the monitor to the right side in a matter of ms. absolutely unplayable like that obv.
> 
> there doesnt seem to be anything on the lens. no hair, no dust or anything.
> 
> is that a known issue? anyone know a fix?
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
> PS: ive already openend a support ticket on ninox.org


i get this when i set custom LED colors. with pre defined color settings i dont get this issue. (lol)

for me the cursor jumped to the top right very fast when lifting up the mouse.

now when using preset LED colors the cursor just slowly jitters to the top right but only when holding the mouse at a very specific angle and distance between pad and sensor. this never happens in real usage though, so i have no issues with that.

when this happened for me i had to restart my pc,
deinstall the driver, reinstall it and let it restore to defaults automatically when launching the driver.

one interesting thing was that after i set up the custom led colors and dpi steps, it worked without this "jitter jump issue", UNTIL i restarted my pc. after that it did the crazy stuff.

maybe you did something similar? ^^


----------



## nyshak

Stop using the software. It is broken and might kill your unit. Stop using it until there is a fixed version.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> edit: for those that might find this post a bit over the top, read this (#293).
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2685037


You can hold him responsible for everything related to the release date he announced and the mess he has made with preorders. But you cannot blame him for taking long developing this thing. He did not owe anyone anything 2011, 2012 or 2013.


----------



## dlano

What/Where could I get a replacement cable for the aurora? The stock one is just terrible and is a real hinderance, everything else on the mouse is fine or I could fix myself, but I don't know if there's only specific cables that work with it or recommended ones?

What did thizito use for instance?


----------



## povohat

I used one from my original Zowie FK


----------



## Roach

Will there be a 3310 version of this in the near future?


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> What/Where could I get a replacement cable for the aurora? The stock one is just terrible and is a real hinderance, everything else on the mouse is fine or I could fix myself, but I don't know if there's only specific cables that work with it or recommended ones?
> 
> What did thizito use for instance?


razer diamondback v1 and 3g, wmo/ie/io cable work, maybe you got one of them.

my fav is/was the one from the DB 3g (im not sure anymore its way more flexible than the cable of my other DB, probly the v1)

unfortunately "it" stops working now when moving the mouse at higher speeds. mouse goes off (LEDs off, no tracking). then when i move the mouse for a sec on the same speed it took to "disable" the mouse, the leds flash white for a split second. but no tracking at all.

now with the stiffer DB v1 cable it works again.

i have a stupid (i think) question, guys:
could the old cable somehow be "overcharged" by the 1000 hz polling rate? because it was only 2 days since i was using 1khz polling rate instead of 500hz. :S
(diamondbacks ran on 125hz.)


----------



## thizito

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281285093387?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

this cable works. you just have to be the same colors..
unfortunatelly all the good cables are different (ie. logitech and razer)
So im swaping the colors today and will try..

The cable i used i just R.I.P one mice i didnt like. i bought for testing. Bloody v3 (bought for macro purposes)

now i R.I.P a logitech g400 v2 cable .. im already disapointed to myself.. but will change colors.


----------



## dlano

Ah I see, thanks. May try that one or one of the logitech/razer ones I see on ebay if swapping the wires on the connector does work.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> This is how you can fix the buttons, it takes about 10-15 mins, or just 5 mins if you're lucky and it works fine on the first try:
> 
> 1. Remove the screw under the QC sticker, then lift up the top half at the back and pull backwards (away from the front). Then the mouse should be open. (Be gentle!)
> 2. Unplug the cable that goes from the side buttons (you don't have to, but it makes it easier)
> 3. Follow the steps in the pictures below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you have the button separated, you can bend it up or down, where the line/groove is (its the thinnest part of the button near the middle). You only need to bend it a VERY small amount, only enough to make it adjust to the right position.
> 
> An alternative to bending the button is to put something in the bit that hooks onto the mouse (the bit that stops you from being able to pull the button up too far, its the part that makes contact with the switch), if you put something in there, like a few stickers layered up, then the mouse button won't be able to raise up. Here is a picture showing it:
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Put the button back on, and test, if its sitting up too high or low, it just needs another small bend, so you might have to try it about 3-4 times before it feels right (repeat the steps in the pictures attached until it feels good).
> 
> [To put the top case back on, slot it into the front of the mouse, then as you bring it down, angle it away from the side buttons slightly. Then as you push it down, it will clear the side buttons. Then, when it gets to the point where you can't angle it away any more (because its forced to line up with the bottom case), it should have cleared the side buttons enough.]
> 
> As for the warranty voiding issue, just be careful, no one is going to know you done it if you're gentle with it and replace the sticker afterwards (use a razor blade to remove it if you want to make it look completely untouched).
> 
> Hope this helps some people, I'm sorry to anyone who has the problem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it really isn't a difficult fix, especially if you've ever opened a mouse before.


I already bought dayz which is in early access alpha.... I don't need my hardware to be alpha too


----------



## thizito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> Ah I see, thanks. May try that one or one of the logitech/razer ones I see on ebay if swapping the wires on the connector does work.


swapping wires not that easy tough


----------



## CeeSA

What is the problem? I think it is easy. Just lift up the little white notch and pull the cable.


----------



## Oeshon

Any way to flash the firmware to default settings?

This would be useful for all those who messed around with the software and bugged the m/s of the mouse.


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> You can hold him responsible for everything related to the release date he announced and the mess he has made with preorders. But you cannot blame him for taking long developing this thing. He did not owe anyone anything 2011, 2012 or 2013.


Yes indeed, but it goes to show the actual context of the matter in order to somewhat justify people getting increasingly impatient with him; myself included. Or in any other words, bst's profile is that he always finds excuses.

In any case that link isn't really needed for someone asking a refund, after all to this day Ninox has not sent several shipments after the purchases were made and all mice (every single one) suffer from severe quality control issues. Now in 2014/2015 Ninox/bst is responsible and does owe money to several people in here, again myself included, and way more than enough time has passed.

Regarding quality control,one severe flaw that's somehow not discussed here is the following, which cannot be fixed:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2701241
http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2705761


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> Yes indeed, but it goes to show the actual context of the matter in order to somewhat justify people getting increasingly impatient with him; myself included. Or in any other words, bst's profile is that he always finds excuses.
> 
> In any case that link isn't really needed for someone asking a refund, after all to this day Ninox has not sent several shipments after the purchases were made and all mice (every single one) suffer from severe quality control issues. Now in 2014/2015 Ninox/bst is responsible and does owe money to several people in here, again myself included, and way more than enough time has passed.
> 
> Regarding quality control,one severe flaw that's somehow not discussed here is the following, which cannot be fixed:
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2701241
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2705761


There is no need to justify being mad at him







I was too, but he delivered in the end. Lucky me I guess. They way he handles this mess gives everyone affected the right to be impatient. Still, the fact that some people got hold of him (like me) or others who have no issues with their units, tells me this is not a scam. The flaw you mentioned ruins the mouse for people who RJ with m2 only, which is a) dependend on the play style (I jump with space, so I aint affected for instance) and b) the game. It is a valid point though.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> There is no need to justify being mad at him
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was too, but he delivered in the end. Lucky me I guess. They way he handles this mess gives everyone affected the right to be impatient. Still, the fact that some people got hold of him (like me) or others who have no issues with their units, tells me this is not a scam. The flaw you mentioned ruins the mouse for people who RJ with m2 only, which is a) dependend on the play style (I jump with space, so I aint affected for instance) and b) the game. It is a valid point though.


It's funny, because the mouse was developed with feedback from esreality, which is predominantly a site for quake players. The majority of quake players use m2 over space for jump. So most of the people who contributed feedback towards the mouse can't even use the pos to RJ reliably with it. Good effort there.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Got the mice today, didnt used driver
> overclocked to 1000hz and using red dpi 800
> perfect. flawless.. did tapefix+hyperglides


wait, hidusb works for overclocking to 1000hz with the aurora? I thought it doesn't . (Can't even overclock the mx300 or G1 right now for some reason..)


----------



## thizito

Every mice works
I also did on my g1 but the max rate is 425hz stucked if i remember well


----------



## acid_reptile

Lol not every mouse can be overclocked. You are right about the G1 maxing out at 425 hz though.


----------



## thizito

Stop saying what you dont know
Every mouse is overclockabe
And every mice have the own limit
Some cant past even 125hz

Btw relax, we are quakers
Quake is life


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> It's funny, because the mouse was developed with feedback from esreality, which is predominantly a site for quake players. The majority of quake players use m2 over space for jump. So most of the people who contributed feedback towards the mouse can't even use the pos to RJ reliably with it. Good effort there.


Funny yeah, but I can't remember that this was part of the discussion at any point during development. Tbh, if I had developed this thing I would not have caught this too. I jump with Space. What makes me wonder is: bst sent out samples to quite a few beta testers. While there might have been an NDA, I haven't heard any of those speak up now that their units had the issue. Some of them would have to be quake players and jump with m2 no? Weird.


----------



## povohat

I think it may depend a lot on the players grip. If i press m1+m2 by lifting both fingers off the mouse and tapping, it is easier to get them to sync. I also notice depending on whether I turn left or right to do a forward rocket jump, i get more consistent results in a specific direction (which appears to change on different days for some reason).

The tapping technique is not viable for me, as I have 3 fingers on top, and lifting my ring finger (m2 finger) off the button affects my pinky grip. I can understand why this button issue is not a problem for different grips and techniques.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Stop saying what you dont know
> Every mouse is overclockabe
> And every mice have the own limit
> Some cant past even 125hz
> 
> Btw relax, we are quakers
> Quake is life


No, stop with your spread of false information, thanks.
Overclock the G100S to 1000Hz and come back here.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> No, stop with your spread of false information, thanks.
> Overclock the G100S to 1000Hz and come back here.


He's just trying to say that you can overclock any mouse, regardless the Hz it can achieve.

It's possible to overclock a mouse from 500Hz to 512Hz, for example.


----------



## Phos

You can overclock anything you can change the clock of, whether or not it actually works isn't really part of the definition.


----------



## RentoN

b
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phos*
> 
> You can overclock anything you can change the clock of, whether or not it actually works isn't really part of the definition.


But wouldn't you say that when a mouse has 125Hz and can't be overclocked to more than 125Hz it's fair to call it "can't be overclocked"?


----------



## acid_reptile

I'm pretty sure its up to the developers if a mouse can be overclocked or not. Early logitech m90 where overclockable to 500 or 1000hz. Worked quite nice for gaming. No anglesnapping, no jitter. After a few months this thing suddenly shipped with a different sensor, hz capped at 125 hz and poor sensor performance, thus not overclockable and useless for gaming. The AM101 does only 500hz in the G100s aswell and is well capable of 1000hz, as seen in the G302. There are other examples. Overclocking the logitech G3 did nothing aswell. I tried everything back in the days. (the pollingrate was only changeable years after its release, through the logitech setpoint 5 software. At release it was stuck at 500hz)

edit:
btw, can someone please confirm overclocking the Aurora to 1000hz actually works? (as stated in http://www.overclock.net/t/1240739/bsts-gaming-mouse/2610#post_23489013)

I just tried it and its still @ 500hz.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Funny yeah, but I can't remember that this was part of the discussion at any point during development. Tbh, if I had developed this thing I would not have caught this too. I jump with Space. What makes me wonder is: bst sent out samples to quite a few beta testers. While there might have been an NDA, I haven't heard any of those speak up now that their units had the issue. Some of them would have to be quake players and jump with m2 no? Weird.


None of the beta mice had it, the factory done it in the very last samples without me asking. When doing final tests with some gamers, one discovered the double click delay (l1nkin), because it was affecting his micro-jumps in Shootmania. I asked the factory about it and since it was there for improved quality, decided to leave it in (also always takes them a while to change anything in the MCU). But none of us noticed there was a delay between the right and left click. I didn't know at the time you could test left-right latency with the bloody latency tester. I don't know if it can be adjusted in the MCU, it might be, depends if they left it as an option or not (but I guess not). Its just one of the perils of making a first product though, knowing what to test etc. At least I'm aware of it for next time... :/


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> None of the beta mice had it, the factory done it in the very last samples without me asking. When doing final tests with some gamers, one discovered the double click delay (l1nkin), because it was affecting his micro-jumps in Shootmania. I asked the factory about it and since it was there for improved quality, decided to leave it in (also always takes them a while to change anything in the MCU). But none of us noticed there was a delay between the right and left click. I didn't know at the time you could test left-right latency with the bloody latency tester. I don't know if it can be adjusted in the MCU, it might be, depends if they left it as an option or not (but I guess not). Its just one of the perils of making a first product though, knowing what to test etc. At least I'm aware of it for next time... :/


Is the 3310 version of aurora going to have this problem?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> Is the 3310 version of aurora going to have this problem?


No future mice will have the problem, also they'll all:

- Be software-less (aside from macro software if people want it)
- Use flash MCUs
- Have copper spiral wrapped cords instead of the foil wrap (so its more flexible)
- Improved scroll wheel
- Main focus will be on new shells instead of OEM


----------



## trhead

Sounds good bst. I have 2 Aurora's both with the same m1/m2 delay issue. Other than that, the Aurora is almost perfect for me. Cable is ok too.

Unfortunately as a mouse2 jumper this problem makes it really hard to play Quake.


----------



## acid_reptile

"Only macro software" means your getting rid of the LED customization ? It also means that there will never be an adjustable "anglesnapping" feature?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> No future mice will have the problem, also they'll all:
> 
> - Be software-less (aside from macro software if people want it)
> - Use flash MCUs
> - Have copper spiral wrapped cords instead of the foil wrap (so its more flexible)
> - Improved scroll wheel
> *- Main focus will be on new shells instead of OEM*


Any chance of having the button for the dpi switch located at the bottom? I prefer this, prevents accidental presses.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Any chance of having the button for the dpi switch located at the bottom? I prefer this, prevents accidental presses.


I like the opposite if its done well - like with the aurora. Ofc, this can never be perfect depending on how you grip the mouse. Still, I switch between DPI for games and desktop use quite often. So a button on top is better.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> "Only macro software" means your getting rid of the LED customization ? It also means that there will never be an adjustable "anglesnapping" feature?


You can do pretty much everything that would be in the software with a little screen, like this one:

It does add a little bit of weight, but not much, and saves the headache of software compatibility.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Any chance of having the button for the dpi switch located at the bottom? I prefer this, prevents accidental presses.


It'll be on top, but you'll be able to disable it.


----------



## pr0l4nd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Any chance of having the button for the dpi switch located at the bottom? I prefer this, prevents accidental presses.


imo it's amazing hard to click this button on aurora


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> It'll be on top, but you'll be able to disable it.


Close enough


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> It'll be on top, but you'll be able to disable it.


Hey bst, may you check the ticket OHF-70594 please?

I sent it a few days ago, still got 0 replies


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> You can do pretty much everything that would be in the software with a little screen, like this one:
> 
> It does add a little bit of weight, but not much, and saves the headache of software compatibility.


This would make modding a lot harder, unless its integrated in the PCB. The xai had a screen like this on an additionally heavy board.


----------



## turnschuh

Software changes with a little screen is cool, but would you be really able to adjust DPI steps in increments of 50, make 2 max profiles or 2 different DPI steps, change LOD, set up different LED settings for different profiles or DPI steps as an indication etc?


----------



## Xanatos

bst, how's that refund process going?


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Software changes with a little screen is cool, but would you be really able to adjust DPI steps in increments of 50, make 2 max profiles or 2 different DPI steps, change LOD, set up different LED settings for different profiles or DPI steps as an indication etc?


Software is not bad per se, too. Drivers are








I am not against software at all if it is optional and not needed to use the mouse. As long as it works and does not kill the mouse as is the case with the aurora software V1.2.


----------



## QLsya

@bst is there anything happening with the software? I haven't been able to use both the auroras that I have for 6 weeks due to them both being permanently stuck on low PCS







Can we not as least get the firmware flasher the factory uses to get the firmware on in the first place? it would be really easy to repackage for users, just a copy and paste of the code and a form with 1 button.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xanatos*
> 
> bst, how's that refund process going?


Would like to know too.

I'm waiting for ANYTHING since December 12th.
It's almost 2 months since I opened a ticket to get a refund.


----------



## ragemuffin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QLsya*
> 
> @bst is there anything happening with the software? I haven't been able to use both the auroras that I have for 6 weeks due to them both being permanently stuck on low PCS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can we not as least get the firmware flasher the factory uses to get the firmware on in the first place? it would be really easy to repackage for users, just a copy and paste of the code and a form with 1 button.


Yeah, I'm waiting for the new fixed software to come out.
A firmware flasher would be amazing. I support this idea as well.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Hey bst, may you check the ticket OHF-70594 please?
> 
> I sent it a few days ago, still got 0 replies


Sorry, just looked at it, might as well answer on here. At the moment its only available on Amazon.co.uk (UK & EC delivery) and Amazon.com. I think Amazon.com will ship to Brazil, give it a try, if it doesn't work let me know and I'll see what I can do.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xanatos*
> 
> bst, how's that refund process going?


Hopefully will be unlimited today, last time I spoke to Paypal was on friday, they said they would be unlimiting my account asap. I removed my shop off the site on the same day, so they know I'm not using their service to take money any more. If that still doesn't make them happy then I'll find another way to refund people. I can't use paypal any more anyway, since I use Amazon to send out the mice at the moment, and paypal needs me to put tracking numbers for every transaction (Amazon doesn't always give me one), thats the main reason they limited my account in the first place.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QLsya*
> 
> @bst is there anything happening with the software? I haven't been able to use both the auroras that I have for 6 weeks due to them both being permanently stuck on low PCS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can we not as least get the firmware flasher the factory uses to get the firmware on in the first place? it would be really easy to repackage for users, just a copy and paste of the code and a form with 1 button.


The factory is working on the software, but now its the Chinese New Year, which lasts until the end of February, so its going to be a while longer







I'm sorry


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> This would make modding a lot harder, unless its integrated in the PCB. The xai had a screen like this on an additionally heavy board.


That screen I posted is only 1.5cm x 1cm, its tiny and weighs almost nothing, and it would be on the PCB.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Software changes with a little screen is cool, but would you be really able to adjust DPI steps in increments of 50, make 2 max profiles or 2 different DPI steps, change LOD, set up different LED settings for different profiles or DPI steps as an indication etc?


Yeah you can do all of that, all software does is send instructions to the MCU, thats all the screen does. But the screen doesn't need to rely on what PC you have, or what software might conflict with it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Software is not bad per se, too. Drivers are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not against software at all if it is optional and not needed to use the mouse. As long as it works and does not kill the mouse as is the case with the aurora software V1.2.


Yeah, but since the Aurora software works well on a lot of PCs (eg I've never even seen it work badly myself), but also doesn't work on a lot, I'm not keen on software as the only option, theres probably always going to be someone it doesn't work well for. A screen at first and adding some software later seems like a good idea to me, just in case the screen breaks out of warranty for some reason.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Sorry, just looked at it, might as well answer on here. At the moment its only available on Amazon.co.uk (UK & EC delivery) and Amazon.com. I think Amazon.com will ship to Brazil, give it a try, if it doesn't work let me know and I'll see what I can do.


It's alright dude.
"This item does not ship to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil"
Amazon is good, but the "duty fees deposit" is kinda ridiculous. That mouse would cost me around $120 or even more...

I already bought a mouse this month, so whatever.
But would be nice if you keep shipping it to Brazil.

Btw, any ETA on an Aurora with the 3310 sensor?


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yeah you can do all of that, all software does is send instructions to the MCU, thats all the screen does. But the screen doesn't need to rely on what PC you have, or what software might conflict with it.


sounds great, thanks.

btw, will there be some seperate suggestion thread for the next mice, where you/we talk about the shapes, sensor pos., how the feet will be placed, the cable, etc?
or will this be in "part 4" thread on ESR?


----------



## sandywind

My Aurora has a problem with the RMB. Its right side scratches against the shell because it is not properly centered. It needs a lot more force than necessary to make it travel the initial few mm tenths and causes fatigue.

Is this something I can fix as per this post or should I rather ask for a replacement?

That post seems to address vertical position problems, not horizontal, that is, i do not know if it advisable to bend the RMB sideways, or if such a maneuver can fix the problem at at all.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> None of the beta mice had it, the factory done it in the very last samples without me asking. When doing final tests with some gamers, one discovered the double click delay (l1nkin), because it was affecting his micro-jumps in Shootmania. I asked the factory about it and since it was there for improved quality, decided to leave it in (also always takes them a while to change anything in the MCU). But none of us noticed there was a delay between the right and left click. I didn't know at the time you could test left-right latency with the bloody latency tester. I don't know if it can be adjusted in the MCU, it might be, depends if they left it as an option or not (but I guess not). Its just one of the perils of making a first product though, knowing what to test etc. At least I'm aware of it for next time... :/


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> No future mice will have the problem, also they'll all:
> 
> - Be software-less (aside from macro software if people want it)
> - Use flash MCUs
> - Have copper spiral wrapped cords instead of the foil wrap (so its more flexible)
> - Improved scroll wheel
> - Main focus will be on new shells instead of OEM


How about instead of focusing on new shells, first fix and release the Ninox Aurora (v2?) without a stiff cord, without super stiff buttons, and without the latency people are talking about. Then you can focus on new shells. Lets be professional here, bst.

The Aurora OEM shell is nice. The sensor position is spot on. Keep it going, just improve on what's broken.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sandywind*
> 
> My Aurora has a problem with the RMB. Its right side scratches against the shell because it is not properly centered. It needs a lot more force than necessary to make it travel the initial few mm tenths and causes fatigue.
> 
> Is this something I can fix as per this post or should I rather ask for a replacement?
> 
> That post seems to address vertical position problems, not horizontal, that is, i do not know if it advisable to bend the RMB sideways, or if such a maneuver can fix the problem at at all.


Do what people did with the first batches of the Zowie AM (M1 and M2 scraping together):

- Grind away some plastic until it no longer touches the sides/other buttons


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: bst



Originally Posted by *bst* 

You can do pretty much everything that would be in the software with a little screen, like this one:

It does add a little bit of weight, but not much, and saves the headache of software compatibility.



Interesting idea. If I can change CPI in 50cpi increments and set it up so that I can quickly switch between a few presets (450, 800, 1050cpi) then I'd be happy. The approach Zowie uses to changing polling rate is fine.


----------



## sandywind

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Do what people did with the first batches of the Zowie AM (M1 and M2 scraping together):
> 
> - Grind away some plastic until it no longer touches the sides/other buttons


I thought about doing that, but I feared I could peel the edges of the rubber layer. Actually I do not know if that's possible; I have not examined the involved parts carefully.

In the meantime, usage is somewhat alleviating the problem to some extent, I guess by natural abrasion.


----------



## Nilizum

The Ninox Aurora hands down probably the best damn mouse in the world without a stiff cord and good clicks. I just spent an hour and a half (lol 5-15 minutes?) calibrating the top shell for better clicks. They feel like the Deathadder 2013/Chroma clicks now. SO GOOD!









NEVER discontinue this, only make it better!


----------



## writer21

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> The Ninox Aurora hands down probably the best damn mouse in the world without a stiff cord and good clicks. I just spent an hour and a half (lol 5-15 minutes?) calibrating the top shell for better clicks. They feel like the Deathadder 2013/Chroma clicks now. SO GOOD!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NEVER discontinue this, only make it better!


I was loving the Aurora when it first came out. Went back to zowie fk2 for quake live. Quality feels better and sensor performance feels better as well. Aurora with 3310 sensor and lighter cable and better quality would be the best mouse. Hopefully bst delivers that or wmo shape 3310.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *writer21*
> 
> I was loving the Aurora when it first came out. Went back to zowie fk2 for quake live. Quality feels better and sensor performance feels better as well. Aurora with 3310 sensor and lighter cable and better quality would be the best mouse. Hopefully bst delivers that or wmo shape 3310.


Yep, definitely. I do not care for the WMO shape after experiencing the Aurora's OEM shape with its current sensor performance and nice positioning, but it wouldn't hurt to get a WMO type shell--just--AFTER things get ironed out with an Aurora, then I think he is ready to do new shells. In prevention of disappointments like what happened with initial Aurora releases...


----------



## MasterBash

Gave up on bst's mouse... Unless he decides to innovate in a future version. Finalmouse seems overall better for me (shape, sensor, etc). Its more expensive, but I dont care. I am just waiting for them to release a 1000hz version or something.

74g vs 70g, I like bigger mice. Besides, hes considering adding a small screen, I dont agree with it, I prefer switches.

I wish more people would impliment 2000hz like Asus did. How much work can it take to impliment it? It may seem useless, but people said the same about 1000hz.


----------



## Hyaa

So my Ninox is glowing but sensor and buttons are dead, probably it happened after i installed the drivers. Tested on different computers. At first it was all fine, then it started dying slowly and after few days stopped working completely.

My question is are new drivers going to fix it ? or my only option is RMA it? (btw no one is even responding for support tickets on NINOX website - Ticket ID: VSA-98812 nor massdrop where i bought it).


----------



## derrflyn

Great mouse if you don't get a lemon. One of the best in terms of shape for me at least. Bst though doesn't seem to care about customer service which is a shame because he's got a decent mouse on his hands.


----------



## FoxWolf1

Interestingly, I just noticed that on my Linux machine, the Aurora shows up as "iOne USB gaming mouse". Keyboard peeps will be familiar with iOne's reputation in terms of quality control (or lack thereof), especially when it comes to brands that don't try to micromanage the factory's production of their product.

My Aurora seems to have come out above average in terms of quality (it works, the buttons are pretty much even, and it glides OK...the only real issues are that the rubber coating on the top started to degrade after a couple of hours of use, and the software doesn't seem to work). But I don't find myself terribly thrilled with it...the shape is kind of awkward for my grip, it's not blowing me away in terms of general responsiveness, and because of my mouse history, you'd have to get below 60g to give me that "wow, so light!" feeling.

No regrets-- it was a curiosity purchase for me, so I had no expectations-- but probably not something I'd recommend to others.


----------



## CorruptBE

It's a bit hit/miss, but overall it's a good mouse, just not for the faint of heart. One must feel comfortable with opening up mice just in case. Luckily you're not damaging any feet in the process doing this.


----------



## copterguise

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Hopefully will be unlimited today, last time I spoke to Paypal was on friday, they said they would be unlimiting my account asap. I removed my shop off the site on the same day, so they know I'm not using their service to take money any more. If that still doesn't make them happy then I'll find another way to refund people. I can't use paypal any more anyway, since I use Amazon to send out the mice at the moment, and paypal needs me to put tracking numbers for every transaction (Amazon doesn't always give me one), thats the main reason they limited my account in the first place.


And nothing. Honestly not surprised, but you seriously need to get a grip.

To put a number to this fiasco, it's been almost half a year since money changed hands.


----------



## EthanNixon

I bought one of these, out of pure curiosity. I own a few mice with the same sensor, and this is the only one that malfunctions at a much lower speed on the same mouse pads. I love the glide, clicks, ergonomics, and feel, but I can't have a mouse malfunction when I'm trying to turn around.

Looked promising!

Will be returning through Amazon.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EthanNixon*
> 
> I bought one of these, out of pure curiosity. I own a few mice with the same sensor, and this is the only one that malfunctions at a much lower speed on the same mouse pads. I love the glide, clicks, ergonomics, and feel, but I can't have a mouse malfunction when I'm trying to turn around.
> 
> Looked promising!
> 
> Will be returning through Amazon.


Ithink I red that if you put the spare mouse feet on top of the existing ones it fixes that low malfunction speed. Just try and double check that


----------



## EthanNixon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Ithink I red that if you put the spare mouse feet on top of the existing ones it fixes that low malfunction speed. Just try and double check that


Seems to have fixed it, which is extremely ridiculous. I will not be returning it, but I probably won't be buying another one of Ninox's products unless there is better testing and thought. I understand that a lot of mice have this "issue", but this is advertised as the "community mouse". I doubt the community would prefer to put two sets of mouse feet just for their mouse to function properly.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Who cares man... that is so insignificant... they came free in the box.........


----------



## EthanNixon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Who cares man... that is so insignificant... they came free in the box.........


Almost every mouse I've bought in the past five years has came with free replacement mouse feet, that doesn't mean I'm required to put two sets of mouse feet in order to use it as advertised.

The mouse did not function properly out of the box, and in order for it to function "normally" I had to put the "replacement" mouse feet on top of the original ones that were already on the mouse itself. It might not be a big deal to people who have a ton of money, but I'm sure it's a pretty big deal to people who buy products and expect them to work as advertised.

When I bought my car and it had advertised 32MPG, I was ecstatic when I got 35MPG. However, if I got 15, I seriously doubt the car dealer ship would tell me to put on spare tires, the one that came with the vehicle, to get my advertised 32MPG.

Based on the reviews, I would say more than 25% of people are getting faulty mice, and most likely returning them. If BST posts something on the website saying, "Listen, I ****ed up guys. Here is a list of things to try to remedy your problems. If they still don't work, I'll gladly ship you a 100% functioning Aurora mouse and take yours back."

That is how you run a business, not continuing to sell a mouse that has a very high defective rate.


----------



## Nilizum

Wat...


----------



## EthanNixon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Wat...


Nice edit.

MPG is a specification cars come with, and it is guaranteed up to a percentage of what's advertised. So if I buy a car, knowing I will be getting a certain MPG, and don't. I would expect my car manufacture or dealership to figure out what is wrong and fix it, or give me a new one. I would NOT expect them to tell me to change parts out myself or simply "put a spare tire on" and say we gave you a spare for a reason.

My analogy is perfect if you have purchased a car.


----------



## thizito

Your analogy with car is just proving why

i hate ninox aurora to be on ocn..

the guy did the FAVOR, which couldnt be done by all those gaming gear companys....
to make a usable new mx300...

seriously.. just request MMO 9 buttons dual sensor RGB LEDS 200g weight from any shop and stop commenting.

he did his best.. and is cheap.

if i buy a chinese cheap mice... should i be mad with it ? is the same case.. they made the mice pretty well if u ask me..

Sseries or Raz3r are way more expensive and can break too.


----------



## thizito

you sir, are insignificant


----------



## CorruptBE

Those needing 2 pairs of skates: I think your mouse is broken.

Mine works fine with 1 set.


----------



## nyshak

Mine is fine with 1 set too.


----------



## EthanNixon

Mine didn't break, it required to be "modded" to work as advertised.

Him being on overclock is better, because now he can see how terrible the QC is on his mice.


----------



## turnschuh

What mousepad are u using CorruptBE and nyshak? maybe it also depends on the surface. on my black qck i need little higher feet than usual. also what cm/360 do you guys use in FPS? the malfunctions i got with the standart pair of feet also only happened like above 3 m/s or something. now with around 1mm high feet, they re completely gone.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Who cares man... that is so insignificant... they came free in the box.........


have to agree. almost on every mouse these days theres something wrong with the feet. like them being to thin that the mouse bottom drags on the pad, etc.
thats almost as bad as it is in this case.

i am still very happy with my aurora.
i even had a little fun to customize the feet and mouse buttom.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@EthanNixon



1. I'm very poor.

2. Compared to all the major problems in the vast majority of "gaming" mice released in the past 10 years, making a big deal about having to put on the extra pair of mouse feet *that come free in the box*, is beyond ridiculous.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EthanNixon*
> 
> Almost every mouse I've bought in the past five years has came with free replacement mouse feet, that doesn't mean I'm required to put two sets of mouse feet in order to use it as advertised.
> 
> The mouse did not function properly out of the box, and in order for it to function "normally" I had to put the "replacement" mouse feet on top of the original ones that were already on the mouse itself.


Wow don't cry. After all the possible issues with this mouse, you are whining about having to use the spare mousefeets. Nice one.


----------



## Nilizum




----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> 2. Compared to all the major problems in the vast majority of "gaming" mice released in the past 10 years, making a big deal about having to put on the extra pair of mouse feet *that come free in the box*, is beyond ridiculous.


I somewhat agree considering the things this forums subgroup complains about.

It falls in the category of "_The least of your worries_"

Also, considering some of the other issues... thank god you don't have to actually "trash" the feet to open up the mouse like on other mice. It's a band aid for some people their issues but hey... imagine how much annoying it would be having to trash the feet to fix the mouse on top.

turnschuh, I'm using a Puretrak Talent (normal print).

Though my main mouse is the FK2 (technically I prefer Bst's, but shapewise I keep going back to the FK2. I should really stop being lazy and do that fake WMO mod tbh).


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> What mousepad are u using CorruptBE and nyshak? maybe it also depends on the surface. on my black qck i need little higher feet than usual. also what cm/360 do you guys use in FPS? the malfunctions i got with the standart pair of feet also only happened like above 3 m/s or something. now with around 1mm high feet, they re completely gone.


Puretrak Talent, standard color.
But I've used the Aurora on the Qpad UC 90 and the Qck Heavy without a difference, both are black only.


----------



## turnschuh

I see, thanks guys.


----------



## Nilizum

Spent 4 hours today making a WMORA with optimized sensor position.





Ended up using Deathadder scroll wheel because it is bigger. Slight misalignment cuz goof'd.

WMO best shape.


----------



## Maximillion

That's sweet man, wish I had the tools/skill/patience to do the same. Think you'll be using it as your main?


----------



## Creizai

So you moved the board down farther and then added plastic tabs on the underside of the mouse buttons? I've been meaning to make mine for so long.... I just need to pick up an excato knife


----------



## EthanNixon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Wow don't cry. After all the possible issues with this mouse, you are whining about having to use the spare mousefeets. Nice one.


Can I complain about my scroll wheel ghost scrolling that gets me killed in CS scrims/matches?

Can I complain that the "rubber" coating on the top is already wearing away after less than a week of use?

Can I complain that every time I start up my PC the Aurora is unresponsive for two-three minutes, while my Asus Gladius is perfectly fine, and I tested the Kinzu v3. Used different ports too.

Can I complain there are literally no indentations in my scroll wheel?

That's all I am going to complain about. I still use it as my primary mouse, simply for the weight and shape.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Creizai*
> 
> So you moved the board down farther and then added plastic tabs on the underside of the mouse buttons? I've been meaning to make mine for so long.... I just need to pick up an excato knife


I didn't use exacto knife. I used Xuron Micro Shear, and 80 grit sand paper. But yes, i had spare plastic pieces from chopping up WMO innards, and glued it on top of the pressers and it was a perfect fit.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> That's sweet man, wish I had the tools/skill/patience to do the same. Think you'll be using it as your main?


I think maybe EC2-A will be my main. I am making more WMORA when my fakeWMO arrive. You can probably pull this off, just need a bit of craftiness. This is by far one of the easier mods to pull off. The biggest problem with shifting the PCB down is probably the default scroll wheel... Need to make it bigger somehow.

---

Also, I want to say, that in my opinion the Ninox Aurora shell is not that great for the switches. The WMO shell works very well with the switches, because they do require some force to actuate, and the way the WMO shell is designed, the shell rests on top of the switches for super easy actuation, especially if you move the PCB downwards. It gives the EC2/1 effect where the switches are easier to press because of the shell design.

If you guys need help on this, feel free to PM me, or just look at povohat's screenshots for his fakeWMOra, because he did a really good job with the default layout. Mine is just shifted downwards on a genuine shell with modified activators.

Another issue is that the genuine WMO shell has aside from the lens bedding, the area around it is kinda high.I had to sand down the border but it still has a height difference, so the lens will be slanted at a very tiny angle. The most important part is to get a hot glue gun to position and keep the lens on the PCB. it is also possible to make your own bedding if you have enough plastic pieces and craftiness, but then you will have to make stands for the PCB or it will wobble on the lens.

Again, recommend to get the fakeWMO instead of genuine because save time and effort.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> WMO best shape.


Agreed. I'm planning on putting other insides in a spare WMO myself. Would love to have a 3310 WMO if that's (easily) doable.


----------



## Creizai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I didn't use exacto knife. I used Xuron Micro Shear, and 80 grit sand paper. But yes, i had spare plastic pieces from chopping up WMO innards, and glued it on top of the pressers and it was a perfect fit.
> I think maybe EC2-A will be my main. I am making more WMORA when my fakeWMO arrive. You can probably pull this off, just need a bit of craftiness. This is by far one of the easier mods to pull off. The biggest problem with shifting the PCB down is probably the default scroll wheel... Need to make it bigger somehow.
> 
> ---
> 
> Also, I want to say, that in my opinion the Ninox Aurora shell is not that great for the switches. The WMO shell works very well with the switches, because they do require some force to actuate, and the way the WMO shell is designed, the shell rests on top of the switches for super easy actuation, especially if you move the PCB downwards. It gives the EC2/1 effect where the switches are easier to press because of the shell design.
> 
> If you guys need help on this, feel free to PM me, or just look at povohat's screenshots for his fakeWMOra, because he did a really good job with the default layout. Mine is just shifted downwards on a genuine shell with modified activators.
> 
> Another issue is that the genuine WMO shell has aside from the lens bedding, the area around it is kinda high.I had to sand down the border but it still has a height difference, so the lens will be slanted at a very tiny angle. The most important part is to get a hot glue gun to position and keep the lens on the PCB. it is also possible to make your own bedding if you have enough plastic pieces and craftiness, but then you will have to make stands for the PCB or it will wobble on the lens.
> 
> Again, recommend to get the fakeWMO instead of genuine because save time and effort.


Do you palm or claw your wmo. What about your EC2-a?


----------



## Nilizum

Hybrid. Same with EC2-A. The WMO feels way more comfortable compared to EC2-A though.

Btw, for those of you that want to do this mod, I recommend 64mm from the base (including red plastic), but of course you are free to fine-tune.

---

A good way to test for efficient LOD is by drawing lines on your pad and keeping note in the change in cm/360. For example for 28cm/360 on a Ninox Aurora = 1.9 (sensitivity) on the 800 dpi setting. For the WMORA it is 2.03 (sensitivity), and the LOD is significantly lower, probably about 0.8-1mm. The performance maxes at 4 m/s on a Puretrak Talent, based on Microe Mouse Tester

---

Update to Maximillion: I've been playing around with it more and I think I will main this LOL. Time to horde on fakeWMOs and Ninox Aurora PCBs. I wonder if bst can just sell the pcbs itself, including (better) cord, and perhaps a bigger diameter scroll wheel. Because face it; a WMO with 4/ms will never be made by any company, especially if want optimal sensor position or adjustable button strength. Right now is the perfect time for performance WMOs because the PCB fits so nicely, and it is not a very messy job either.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EthanNixon*
> 
> Can I complain about my scroll wheel ghost scrolling that gets me killed in CS scrims/matches?
> 
> Can I complain that the "rubber" coating on the top is already wearing away after less than a week of use?
> 
> Can I complain that every time I start up my PC the Aurora is unresponsive for two-three minutes, while my Asus Gladius is perfectly fine, and I tested the Kinzu v3. Used different ports too.
> 
> Can I complain there are literally no indentations in my scroll wheel?
> 
> That's all I am going to complain about. I still use it as my primary mouse, simply for the weight and shape.


Much better. Now we're talking.


----------



## Dreyka

Is BST working on an updated Aurora or another mouse shape at the moment?


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Is BST working on an updated Aurora or another mouse shape at the moment?


Yes its due out in 2019


----------



## kackbratze

my review:

+ good tracking

- build quality is ridiciliously bad. 1/10. the gaps between buttons and the actual switches are killing me. trying to adjust them
- no answer from support after like 2 months on what to do with the sensor actor weird (snaps from one side of the screen to the other; "fix": switch between DPIs)

would not buy again.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Yes its due out in 2019


Optimist.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: bst



Originally Posted by *bst* 


> That screen I posted is only 1.5cm x 1cm, its tiny and weighs almost nothing, and it would be on the PCB.
> Yeah you can do all of that, all software does is send instructions to the MCU, thats all the screen does. But the screen doesn't need to rely on what PC you have, or what software might conflict with it.
> Yeah, but since the Aurora software works well on a lot of PCs (eg I've never even seen it work badly myself), but also doesn't work on a lot, I'm not keen on software as the only option, theres probably always going to be someone it doesn't work well for. A screen at first and adding some software later seems like a good idea to me, just in case the screen breaks out of warranty for some reason.






Can you just do the Zowie approach and release software. Set the default CPI steps to 400, 800, 1600 and 3200. Low LOD by default and default 1000Hz polling rate. If it is possible to change polling rate between 500Hz and 1000Hz without software then do that as well. Surely, that approach will please everyone.


----------



## Xanatos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Xanatos*
> 
> bst, how's that refund process going?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully will be unlimited today, last time I spoke to Paypal was on friday, they said they would be unlimiting my account asap. I removed my shop off the site on the same day, so they know I'm not using their service to take money any more. If that still doesn't make them happy then I'll find another way to refund people. I can't use paypal any more anyway, since I use Amazon to send out the mice at the moment, and paypal needs me to put tracking numbers for every transaction (Amazon doesn't always give me one), thats the main reason they limited my account in the first place.
Click to expand...

how about now? should I finally give up?


----------



## CorruptBE

Send him another reminder, give up and then at le wild day somewhere in 2018 you'll be like "where did this money came from??".

Delayed refunds...


----------



## ramen ramon

am i missing something or is this mouse not available to purchase on the site like it used to be?


----------



## Nilizum

u missin sumtin m8. i still see it


----------



## acid_reptile

He's not. You can't buy the mouse from ninox page anymore for quite some time now.


----------



## Nilizum

wat.


----------



## a_ak57

They're talking about the ninox site, not amazon.

BTW, can someone do some mousetester graphs? I was doing some for my mice yesterday and the Aurora's came out iffy:




For reference, my EVGA X5:




I haven't used the Aurora in a game for a while so I dunno if something happened to it and I know mousetester graphs aren't the be-all-end-all, but still.


----------



## Nilizum

Oh. my bad m8s.

I get the same graph results on 1000hz. Try 500hz.


----------



## trism

I get similar graphs with my Aurora on both polling rates.

Which mousepad? Saw the test you did for FK1 and the results were a lot better than mine on Corsair MM200.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, his FK1 graphs are also a lot better than Ino's. I guess there is a good deal of variance between the same brand & model of mice.


----------



## a_ak57

Oh right, forgot to mention mousepad. Using a Puretrak Talent. I'll check 500Hz later today, though honestly I expect similar results.


----------



## nyshak

If the mouse works ingame as ever I wouldn't put to much into mousetester.
If it does not, well, you would notice that without mouse tester


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Oh right, forgot to mention mousepad. Using a Puretrak Talent. I'll check 500Hz later today, though honestly I expect similar results.


My 500hz is actually really stable compared to 1000hz. Then I questioned whether it even mattered, because a lines test yielded no acceleration or any jumpiness. Also on Puretrak Talent. /shrugs


----------



## nsKb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Oh right, forgot to mention mousepad. Using a Puretrak Talent. I'll check 500Hz later today, though honestly I expect similar results.


I got a similar graph to you at 1000 Hz, a lot smoother at 500 Hz. Both done on a Talent.


----------



## odellus

chinese new year ended today, hopefully that means we'll be getting new drivers soon...


----------



## copterguise

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *odellus*
> 
> chinese new year ended today, hopefully that means we'll be getting new drivers soon...


And refunds. Surely the PayPal is unlocked now after a dozen or so promises of "soon".


----------



## avensvvvvvv

^The last update on the owed refunds (for six months and counting) was around a month ago. In that post he said.... "today", and since then he has been MIA both here and on ESR.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Hopefully will be unlimited today, last time I spoke to Paypal was on friday, they said they would be unlimiting my account asap. I removed my shop off the site on the same day, so they know I'm not using their service to take money any more. If that still doesn't make them happy then I'll find another way to refund people. I can't use paypal any more anyway, since I use Amazon to send out the mice at the moment, and paypal needs me to put tracking numbers for every transaction (Amazon doesn't always give me one), thats the main reason they limited my account in the first place.


Oh and BTW my order is still "processing", as in not even sent by him and of course it hasn't arrived. Not that it matters much, since every single mouse is defective and bst/ninox simply doesn't issue refunds to anyone whatever the issue might be.


----------



## hahahoha

will this fit into a kinzu shell?


----------



## derrflyn

Bst, gone AWOL again huh?

This is getting really old.


----------



## CeeSA

I'm really very pleasantly surprised by the side buttons. I was very skeptical because I thought the size is far too small.
I really like the feel and anything. Has anyone else noticed?


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CeeSA*
> 
> I'm really very pleasantly surprised by the side buttons. I was very skeptical because I thought the size is far too small.
> I really like the feel and anything. Has anyone else noticed?


I like them too. I can see people having trouble with them, depending on how you grip the mouse though. But you can't please everyone.


----------



## odellus

some day...


----------



## bst

Finally Paypal has unlocked my account and I can process refunds. If you've been waiting for a refund, PM me your order number on here, will be a bit faster than using the ninox site.

The factory that makes the Aurora is being slow with the driver update, although I think the Chinese new year slows them down quite a bit. I've also enquired about making a more simplified software which only changes the USB hz and DPI, since thats what most people want to change, and it should be less likely to conflict if its that simple. I'll update when I know more about it.


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Finally Paypal has unlocked my account and I can process refunds. If you've been waiting for a refund, PM me your order number on here, will be a bit faster than using the ninox site.
> 
> The factory that makes the Aurora is being slow with the driver update, although I think the Chinese new year slows them down quite a bit. I've also enquired about making a more simplified software which only changes the USB hz and DPI, since thats what most people want to change, and it should be less likely to conflict if its that simple. I'll update when I know more about it.!


is the buffer between inputs going to be fixed?


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> The g100s sensor is not inferior at all. It has lower IPS but is far more responsive. The 3090 is old, period. Its outdated and no point in using it anymore. All my 3090 mice are laggy (smoothing).


lol, k dude. the first thing i noticed when playing with the aurora after having used a g100s for a year was how much more responsive and accurate it felt, and i've never been one to really care about or notice differences between sensors.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> Some people have reported that they dont really feel the dents with the mousewheel.


the only way that could be true is if it's another manufacturing defect, and i don't see how that could happen, but whatever. the notches are very pronounced on mine, it's in between the g100s and da 3.5g scrollwheel.


----------



## MasterBash

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *odellus*
> 
> lol, k dude. the first thing i noticed when playing with the aurora after having used a g100s for a year was how much more responsive and accurate it felt, and i've never been one to really care about or notice differences between sensors.
> the only way that could be true is if it's another manufacturing defect, and i don't see how that could happen, but whatever. the notches are very pronounced on mine, it's in between the g100s and da 3.5g scrollwheel.


I cant stand the 3090 whatsoever, its too laggy and its not just me. You can read around here and many people reported the same thing. After you try a more responsive mouse, the 3090 feels laggy.

As for the mousewheel, it could be, I am going with what is being reported on ESReality. You also claimed it has QC issues too, so it wouldnt surprise me.


----------



## bst

I haven't used an Aurora where I couldn't feel the notches in the scroll wheel, I've had it where some are stiffer and some are easier to turn though. But what does OCN consider the best scroll wheel encoder? The ALPS one seems to be a bit better overall. And for the new mouse, what do you prefer, optical or mechanical? I quite like the FK2's scroll wheel, though I read some people didn't like it?


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *odellus*
> 
> is the buffer between inputs going to be fixed?


Can't be fixed. That is only true flaw of the Aurora if you use M2 to jump.


----------



## LDV617

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I haven't used an Aurora where I couldn't feel the notches in the scroll wheel, I've had it where some are stiffer and some are easier to turn though. But what does OCN consider the best scroll wheel encoder? The ALPS one seems to be a bit better overall. And for the new mouse, what do you prefer, optical or mechanical? I quite like the FK2's scroll wheel, though I read some people didn't like it?


FK1 is what I'm currently using, considering testing the Aurora.

The problem with the FK1 scroll wheel is sometimes it accidentally scrolls down with no force applied. I can't say what wheel is the best, but CSGO pros tend to lean toward Logitech for the mousewheel more than anything else.


----------



## MasterBash

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Can't be fixed. That is only true flaw of the Aurora if you use M2 to jump.
> I guess most people here or on ESR don't like their mice including useless features. I belong to that category too. Now, I get what a screen can do to make the mouse really software-free. Cool. But as long as its only a software that does not break the thing I'd like the screen to be left alone. There's alot that goes into this. Weight, weight distribution / position of it, sensor position changes due to the screen etc. And all that hassle just so that you do not have to use the software?
> 
> I mean, how ofter are people going to use the screen? Me, one time. Then Im done. I can install a software once to set everything up and then uninstall it. That leaves me with a "cleaner" product from a hardware perspective. I know all of this is no *reason* to leave the sensor out. But I'd like you to do one or the other: screen or software. If the screen is there it should be used. No need for the software at all. Less work for you less cost, better quality product in the end. It does not make any sense at all to try and have all the shiny things if 2 are there for the same job.


How about a removable screen, so once we are done using it (saving settings to onboard memory), we can remove it? I dont know how what would be implemented. Maybe a USB device... You plug in the mouse, save settings, remove?

lol.


----------



## bst

MasterBash: Logitech uses optical scroll too, doesn't it? I think they last longer and the notches can be more defined.

If I get some feedback on whether people like the ability to change switches, then I'll do it for the side buttons too, then it'll come with Omrons all round and you could change them to whatever you liked if Omrons are too sensitive. If not, I might stick with Huano, because of their 90 degree angle option, and there is nothing actually wrong with Huanos for side buttons, from what I can tell anyway. Yes I will go with higher rated Omrons for the main switches this time.


----------



## MasterBash

Yes, the G502 mousewheel is awesome. I am talking about the optical scroll, not the wheel itself. The wheel is made of metal (aluminum) and pretty awful. However, the system it uses is amazing.

I personally like something light. I apoligize if that doesnt mean much - I think the G502 and G302/3 got it right.

I think replaceable Omrons switches both on the side and main switches would be cool. I think something cooler than replaceable switches would be buttons similar to the G302/3 (springs). They feel that good.


----------



## MasterBash

The idea I came up with would probably be too expensive.

Clicking DPI button to change DPI, makes sense
Hold DPI button for 3 secs = Suface calibration
Hold DPI button + Another button = Change polling rate?

Would need some kind of indication that you are really changing the DPI and not calibrating... LED changing color or something.

Then I dont think you will need any software, unless some people need profiles/macros or whatever.


----------



## Skyval

Maybe even hold DPI button + scroll up/down = change DPI up/down in steps of 50. Without a screen it could be tedious to get to a specific step, but having the ability could be useful for some people.


----------



## popups

*@MasterBash*
I think adding a bunch of button combos for different actions isn't possible for some MCUs. To much code and not enough memory. The more you add to the MCU the more likely it will have major issues that will affect the sensor performance. Just LEDs can cause major issues, especially the RGB lightening effects.

*@BST*
From what I hear, the ALPS is the best non optical encoder, it looks good to me. I feel an optical encoder with a good feedback design can be better. For simplicity and weight I think the ALPS is the way to go, but it will wear out like similar offerings.

Swappable switches can be a good idea if the socket is designed well. I think it would be hard to do for side buttons, plus, I think side buttons need to be very tight on the tolerances to work well. Obviously, adding these sockets will add weight to the mouse, so maybe adding more than two is going to be too much weight.

Are you designing a new shape? If you are, I have a bunch of ideas, at least some advice.

The 3988 or the 3310? That is a complicated question. Supposedly the 3988 is better on the hardware level than the 3310. However, the SROM seems to be out dated, I don't see it being taken care of as long as Razer uses the 3988. The 3310 is more akin to the 3090, so anyone that used the 3090 will feel it is an upgrade, even though the 3988 is supposedly stronger. I think a 3310 with the right SROM settings and a great MCU with proper coding, will satisfy most.


----------



## MasterBash

This. What popups said. I think a good optical encoder will be better.

I think replaceable switches would be best for the main buttons only. Logitech uses a small vertical PCB for their side switch, so at worst, you can sell that part. I am not against replaceable side buttons, but like popups said, the tolerance. Again, I would prefer the springs on the g302/3. That is far better imo.

I think you should stick to 3310.

I think he is already set on the design. I am crossing my finger for it to be a palm mouse.

I think a lot.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> This. What popups said. I think a good optical encoder will be better.
> 
> I think replaceable switches would be best for the main buttons only. Logitech uses a small vertical PCB for their side switch, so at worst, you can sell that part. I am not against replaceable side buttons, but like popups said, the tolerance. Again, I would prefer the springs on the g302/3. That is far better imo.
> 
> I think you should stick to 3310.
> 
> I think he is already set on the design. I am crossing my finger for it to be a palm mouse.


The design of the shell would dictate main buttons, side buttons, CPI/profile button, scroll wheel, sensor position, cable, etc. So I don't think he is already finished with it. If he is, then options are limited.

I would like spring tension to remove pre travel from the main buttons, but that depends on the design of the shell.


----------



## turnschuh

will you still be able to switch between 2 profiles with the new mouse?

Also, with the ability to change dpi in increments of 50, will there be the option to fine tune the LOD manually and not just through a "surface calibration" setting? (isnt this just for other sensors than the 3310 btw?) sorry, quite confused now because of people mentioning the calibration setting before.

about replacable switches: why do you guys need it? (just curious actually) would you put in other ones or do you want them just in case the stock ones fail one day to replace them?

a display wouldnt bother me much either (it could even be very useful) and is generally a good idea for reasons you stated before.

you said that you re going to make standart dpi steps of 400/800/1600/3200, not that i care much about this as i would make my own steps anyways, but why those steps?

How does 400/800/1200/1600 dpi steps sound instead, for example? maybe even a 1000 dpi step between 800 and 1200.

Just curious about the shape a little.
will it be more WMOish, like it looked like on the "concept pic" you posted some weeks ago?

oh and one other thing regarding profile switching. one thing i would find very useful would be to set up a profile with different button mapping than the other profile(s) on top of being able to switch between dpi/color setting like it was possible on the aurora.

not sure how difficult it would be to let the driver configure this, though.

thx and good luck with your next mouse


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I quite like the FK2's scroll wheel, though I read some people didn't like it?


Zowie's middle clicks and even scrolls are too stiff.

Also, why are you designing a completely new shape? I haven't seen any complaints about the shape other than it being too small.... I really think you have a nearly perfect shape with the Aurora, if you just increase the width at least. IMO one of the biggest errors the big companies make is creating completely new shapes rather than tweaking good ones to make them better.

The DA 4g 3988 sensor is very good, but FM's 3310 would be the best by far if they fix their tracking inconsistencies.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skyval*
> 
> Maybe even hold DPI button + scroll up/down = change DPI up/down in steps of 50. Without a screen it could be tedious to get to a specific step, but having the ability could be useful for some people.


Every new mouse should have this now that the sensors support native 50dpi steps. And a display screen is necessary to do this.


----------



## aLv1080

Another idea would be: Create two models. A basic one (cheaper) and a 'premium' one
The premium will have a nice software, a LCD screen, some LEDs, stuff like that
And the basic one wont. The sensor and SROM will be the same, but a LCD screen or software is pretty useless for some people (like me, I don't care)

That's just an idea, because some people might want a really lightweight mouse and 5g might do a difference for them. Some people don't want a LCD screen either.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Zowie's middle clicks and even scrolls are too stiff.
> 
> Also, why are you designing a completely new shape? I haven't seen any complaints about the shape other than it being too small.... I really think you have a nearly perfect shape with the Aurora, if you just increase the width at least. IMO one of the biggest errors the big companies make is creating completely new shapes rather than tweaking good ones to make them better.
> 
> Every new mouse should have this now that the sensors support native 50dpi steps. And a display screen is necessary to do this.


The middle click and scroll wheel on one of my Zowie mouse is too light. I accidentally press the middle click when trying to scroll precisely. The wheel is light enough that it creeps while I rest my finger on it, causing unintended scrolls.

Another Zowie mouse has the stiffest scroll wheel on Earth! No joke! My finger is hurting as I type this because it is that stiff. I have to switch between two fingers because after a day of use my finger hurts too much to continue using it. The springs are way to stiff. If I have any sweat on my hands I cannot scroll because the resistance is so strong my finger slips.

I don't want a screen on a mouse because it adds weight, changes balance, can require a certain PCB design that may not be ideal, can cause power issues / MCU issues, etc. I rather use a program to setup the mouse once. I can see adding a screen becoming a major MCU coding issue trying to give people all the complexity/options possible.


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> MasterBash, I think you misunderstood me, the new mouse is 100% new, its not like the Aurora, not the same factory, and its my own design. Also the Aurora is a fairly old design, I haven't been able to do anything new until now, I've got a lot more experience going into this one. So it will be vastly improved, although I'm not sure about 2000hz, its not a big priority, but I will do it if its not a huge pain. Other thing I'm not sure about is the replaceable switches, I heard it can make the buttons feel a bit 'mushy'? I like the idea of it though.
> 
> Its not too late to switch to S3988, but I don't know much about it compared with the 3310. I'm a bit nervous to use S3988, since 3310 can be improved by SROM, but S3988 may not have any further support. I know S3988 is technically better in some areas compared to 3310, but I don't think it makes a real-world difference, so from my POV its riskier and so at the moment I consider it "worse" than 3310 when all things are considered.
> 
> Odellus: I've been focussing more on the software with them, but I asked them for a final answer on the buffer today, so should have an answer soon. It can be fixed in new batches of the mouse but I know thats not useful for people who have already bought it.


do you know when 3366 will become available for other companies


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> do you know when 3366 will become available for other companies


I don't see that being accepted by consumers of BST's products. They don't want to wait 10 years.

The 3310 is a fine upgrade over the 3090. Maybe he can try out a 3988.


----------



## Melan

Probably never. It's a property of logitech.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

The 3310 is plenty good enough. It just depends on how it's implemented.

If FinalMouse fixes the issues in their current edition it would be the best mouse on the market BY FAR. Because it already feels better/more raw than the MLT04, it just has some other tracking inconsistency.


----------



## acid_reptile

@bst

Will the simplified software finally reset the mouse to default, to fix the low IPS ? If not the software should also have a LED pulsing On/OFF switch, as i only have one working auora left, and i don't want to destroy another one using the Ninox_Aurora_Software_v1.2.


----------



## Hittys

Bought one.

Mouse buttons came out good, but after a while the sensor wouldn't go past 1.6 m/s. I didn't install drivers.

Also I noticed that my touchpad would simply stop working, some laptop keys as well. Things went back to normal when I unplugged it and refreshed mouse HID drivers using device manager.

Windows 8.1, asus rog G751.

Update:

Installed drivers, somehow managed to unclog the sensor, now it goes upwards 5 m/s and as soon as I realized I uninstalled them soon after.

On another note, the drivers don't actually work. Messing with the settings doesn't translate into any changes in mouse behaviour. The mouse dpi settings won't budge from the 800/1600/4000~ default, lighting customization as well. Only the mouse hertz managed to register change, and that was after a few driver uninstall/reinstall runs, computer restarts and devicemanager driver reinstalls.

I hope the factory manages to produce a competent update because this mouse shape/sensor performance is simply amazing, a better package than anything else I've tried.

@bst

I think at this point since you are looking forward to your next project, if there is a chance for you to procure a crude solution to the driver situation on the off-chance the factory releases yet another broken driver update, I would suggest you take it. Even with a small program that correctly flashes the mouse to a config text file; whatever works. The community and the people who bought your mouse would thank you for it.


----------



## nyshak

Software update would be nice. Would like to change the LED color, but I am not going to touch V1.2 more than once


----------



## nittwit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Its still a while off, I don't have a good estimate at the moment, but it'll be at least 4 months. I don't really want to give ETAs though, or pre-orders, I'll give a months notice when its going to come out like the other companies do, along with some photos. You might get a sneak peek earlier if some people use it at a LAN though.


4 months or 4 years? Will this be like the Aurora, that i waited like 3 years and after all didn't like it?

Also, could you make the shape like the G9X with switchable grips







? A lot people seems to love and praise the G9X shape.

I know you cannot make the shape exactly like it, but a small shaped mouse like the Roccat Lua with switchable grips that can be sell separately could please the people that likes palm grip and the people that likes claw grip. Also a weight system would be wondeful for people that likes to use slippery mousepads as me.

You should try to match the Logitech's or A4tech's mice mouse click input lag. A lot people seems to care about it.


----------



## bst

Turns out I can't send money on my paypal account even though it looks as though I can, I contacted paypal about it and they said that I have to send them an email with all the people I want to send money to. So thats why I haven't sent any refunds out yet, it won't be much longer though.

If you contact me for a refund please include your paypal email address, sorry I forgot to mention that in my post!


----------



## bst

If you have a problem with the software, please can you post your mobo manufacturer and model? The factory is trying to find a solution but I want to try and help them with as much info as I can. On their computers (and mine) there aren't any problems, so it must be down to an incompatibility with some mobos. I've tried to "break" the software on the PCs here (on different OSes), but not had any luck. If I can narrow it down to a certain hardware/software config it could help a lot.


----------



## mtzgr

Installed the drivers for science, haven't had any issues.


----------



## mtzgr

Since I installed the drivers I decided to DM a bit with the mouse.






With the Ninox Aurora you can AWP in the air. Buy one now.


----------



## acid_reptile

yea its not about installing the software, its about actually using it. Messing around with the custom LED colors included.

CPU: Inter core i3 2100

RAM: 8 GB Corsair 1333

MOBO: MSI Z68A G43 (G3)

GPU: MSI Nvidea 560ti (replaced with a GTX 960, but didn't use the software since then)


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> yea its not about installing the software, its about actually using it. Messing around with the custom LED colors included.


By "installed the drivers", I meant I installed the drivers and I'm able use them i.e. alter dpi steps, change colors (or turn them off), switch between polling rates, rebind buttons, etc. All of this is implied.


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> If you have a problem with the software, please can you post your mobo manufacturer and model? The factory is trying to find a solution but I want to try and help them with as much info as I can. On their computers (and mine) there aren't any problems, so it must be down to an incompatibility with some mobos. I've tried to "break" the software on the PCs here (on different OSes), but not had any luck. If I can narrow it down to a certain hardware/software config it could help a lot.


i didn't really need the drivers for anything but i figured why not, if anything goes wrong i'm sure amazon will have my back. after installing them, my cursor now goes all over the place sometimes when i move the mouse very fast. obviously it didn't do this before, and this behavior persists after a system restart. enotus doesn't seem to work right and was reporting over 20 m/s pcs. i changed the polling rate to 1000 hz and the led color to green.

i have an asrock z68 extreme3 gen3, mouse is plugged into a usb 2.0 port, running win 7 x64 ultimate.


----------



## Hyaa

At first mouse was fine, but after i installed the software (did some changes there like dpi/polling/etc) cursor and buttons stopped working completely. It was getting worse with every computer turning on (i had to plug mouse several times before it started to work until it died for good). Now when mouse is plugged in it only glows.

mobo - MSI z77a-gd65
cpu - i5 2500k
gpu - Sapphire R9 290


----------



## jonbrabham

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> If you have a problem with the software, please can you post your mobo manufacturer and model? The factory is trying to find a solution but I want to try and help them with as much info as I can. On their computers (and mine) there aren't any problems, so it must be down to an incompatibility with some mobos. I've tried to "break" the software on the PCs here (on different OSes), but not had any luck. If I can narrow it down to a certain hardware/software config it could help a lot.


i get poor performance when attempting to flick mouse for shots. also, poor performance in enotus when testing malfunction speed / tracking speed. on the desktop, when attempting to move from left to right quickly, the mouse will move right, do some weird loop and begin moving to the left. normally, 6 inches of mouse movement on my physical desk will traverse the desktop left to right completely. when attempting to move quickly/test mouse meters per second, i cover 15 inches or so on my physical desk and the cursor moves a little, performs some weird circular loop and ends up back in the same spot or barely moved or a net leftward movement.

HP EliteBook 8560p laptop running windows 7 Pro SP1.

help please!
jon


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hyaa*
> 
> At first mouse was fine, but after i installed the software (did some changes there like dpi/polling/etc) cursor and buttons stopped working completely. It was getting worse with every computer turning on (i had to plug mouse several times before it started to work until it died for good). Now when mouse is plugged in it only glows.
> 
> mobo - MSI z77a-gd65
> cpu - i5 2500k
> gpu - Sapphire R9 290


The software is broken. It should not be used. It can kill the mouse.
Shame on bst that he still has it on his website without a warning though. That should not be...


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> The software is broken. It should not be used. It can kill the mouse.
> Shame on bst that he still has it on his website without a warning though. That should not be...


hes proven to be very professional, what do you expect /s


----------



## CorruptBE

Didn't have any issues (yet) with the software using an older mobo then alot of other people (pre-UEFI era):

Gigabyte P67-UD4-B3
Intel Core i7 2600K OCed to 4.5 Ghz
Geforce 770 GTX

Small note: I'm excessively clean with my OS/Software. I run USB Deview before installing a new mouse, etc.


----------



## nyshak

I wonder how many people who have problems with it are running it on a laptop.


----------



## ragemuffin

Any news about firmware flashing or anything like that?
Still bummed about my Aurora's malfunction problems despite the tweaks I've done.

Still using a DA2013/G400 as my daily driver because of this.

*EDIT*
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD3H
CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K
GPU: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 660


----------



## MaximilianKohler

You added the 2nd pair of mousefeet and still have problems?


----------



## ragemuffin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You added the 2nd pair of mousefeet and still have problems?


I was surprised at myself too.
I go over 3m/s and I don't even notice.

I only noticed the malfunctions recently when I changed my ingame CS:GO sensitivity to 1.2.
AWP flickshots were pretty much impossible in a DM.


----------



## Vantavia

Is there going to be a firmware fix for the aurora? There have been various issues on the forums with it and the graphs are messed up to say the least.


----------



## RentoN

Has there ever been a fix for the software doing weird stuff to the tracking?
I installed the software on the first one I got and could never get used to it because the cursor movement felt unprecise and jumpy.
When I got my secound one I didn't install the software and loved the mouse.
But because I hated the obnoxious red light I eventually installed the software on that one aswell and hated it ever since.
Uninstalling the software didn't fix it and I can't get the mouse back to default, let alone get it to work as well as without the software and at the same time disable the light.
It's really a shame that a mouse that's supposed to be for real games without unnecessary gimmicks has light to begin with.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Has there ever been a fix for the software doing weird stuff to the tracking?
> I installed the software on the first one I got and could never get used to it because the cursor movement felt unprecise and jumpy.
> When I got my secound one I didn't install the software and loved the mouse.
> But because I hated the obnoxious red light I eventually installed the software on that one aswell and hated it ever since.
> Uninstalling the software didn't fix it and I can't get the mouse back to default, let alone get it to work as well as without the software and at the same time disable the light.
> It's really a shame that a mouse that's supposed to be for real games without unnecessary gimmicks has light to begin with.


I did the same thing, I wanted to change the LED colour and set it to 1000hz but it messed up my mouse input (afaik 1000hz isn't 100% stable idk if that could be improved) does this mean we can't have 1000hz on the aurora without breaking it?

http://prntscr.com/6m3fxm rofl


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> I was surprised at myself too.
> I go over 3m/s and I don't even notice.
> 
> I only noticed the malfunctions recently when I changed my ingame CS:GO sensitivity to 1.2.
> AWP flickshots were pretty much impossible in a DM.


1.2 at 800 DPI?
I use the same sensitivity in CS:GO and can't even get a WMO to malfunction.
What are you doing?


----------



## ragemuffin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> 1.2 at 800 DPI?
> I use the same sensitivity in CS:GO and can't even get a WMO to malfunction.
> What are you doing?


WMO's malfunction limit is like 2m/s. I go way above that during regular gameplay.
I have one myself and it's very easy to do, even at an overclocked polling rate at 1Khz.


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> WMO's malfunction limit is like 2m/s. I go way above that during regular gameplay.
> I have one myself and it's very easy to do, even at an overclocked polling rate at 1Khz.


that's hilarious.


----------



## writer21

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> I did the same thing, I wanted to change the LED colour and set it to 1000hz but it messed up my mouse input (afaik 1000hz isn't 100% stable idk if that could be improved) does this mean we can't have 1000hz on the aurora without breaking it?
> 
> http://prntscr.com/6m3fxm rofl


I use 1000hz on Aurora and it's been fine. Installed software, made changes then uninstalled.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *odellus*
> 
> that's hilarious.


Why?

Anyways. I don't know what people are doing. I use a fairly low sensitivity and never hit 2m/s.
And it's not like it takes me 5 secounds to make a 180 spin or anything either.
Watching pro matches it doesn't seem like their flicks and general crosshair movement is really faster than mine.
Chances are that when you move your mouse fast enought to go over 2m/s your picture ingame, even with a low sensitivity, will move way too fast to react to anything you might see or to still be able to stop at the right moment and be precise.
So what's the point (of making those crazy fast movements with your arm)?

Strenx for example uses 50cm/360 and a kinzu v1 in QL, a much faster game than CS and I never heard him complaining about low PCS.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *writer21*
> 
> I use 1000hz on Aurora and it's been fine. Installed software, made changes then uninstalled.


Maybe it doesn't happen with all of the mice.
Maybe you just don't notice it and it's something the test can't detect.
Don't know.
But there's definitely something wrong with the software with the 2 mice I have.
I didn't even suspect the software was causing the problem when I installed it on my secound mouse (so probably no placebo), but when I did I went from "Love this mouse so much!" to "nope, can't deal with this, back to my old mouse!" instantly.


----------



## Vantavia

My Ninox Aurora: http://prntscr.com/6m3fxm

My old Zowie EC2: http://prntscr.com/6m62mg (3090 sensor again)

My Razer Abyssus: http://prntscr.com/6m64ar

Someone else's test of their finalmouse: http://imgur.com/TX1NMHU (from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/2v5glv/finalmouse_2015_impressions/ )

Spot the difference.

The dots are supposed to be as close to the line as possible.


----------



## Melan

If you move FM as slow as you moved your 3 mice, graphs will be just as bad.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Why?
> 
> Anyways. I don't know what people are doing. I use a fairly low sensitivity and never hit 2m/s.
> And it's not like it takes me 5 secounds to make a 180 spin or anything either.
> Watching pro matches it doesn't seem like their flicks and general crosshair movement is really faster than mine.
> Chances are that when you move your mouse fast enought to go over 2m/s your picture ingame, even with a low sensitivity, will move way too fast to react to anything you might see or to still be able to stop at the right moment and be precise.
> So what's the point (of making those crazy fast movements with your arm)?
> 
> Strenx for example uses 50cm/360 and a kinzu v1 in QL, a much faster game than CS and I never heard him complaining about low PCS.


The higher your sensitivity the less malfunction speed matters. Most people use a high to very high sensitivity.

When you move very fast motion blur becomes an issue with modern monitors. The blur can ruin your timing and precision. With monitors like BenQ are less problematic, but it's still an issue. I like to move as fast as the monitor allows so I can land on target perfectly.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Chances are that when you move your mouse fast enought to go over 2m/s your picture ingame, even with a low sensitivity, will move way too fast to react to anything you might see or to still be able to stop at the right moment and be precise.
> So what's the point (of making those crazy fast movements with your arm)?


this is what i think as well


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> My Ninox Aurora: http://prntscr.com/6m3fxm
> 
> My old Zowie EC2: http://prntscr.com/6m62mg (3090 sensor again)
> 
> My Razer Abyssus: http://prntscr.com/6m64ar
> 
> Someone else's test of their finalmouse: http://imgur.com/TX1NMHU (from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/2v5glv/finalmouse_2015_impressions/ )
> 
> Spot the difference.
> 
> The dots are supposed to be as close to the line as possible.


You're mixing xvelocity graphs with xcount graphs. You either compare xvelocity vs xvelocity or xcount vs xcount.


----------



## qsxcv

doesnt matter if polling is stable


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> doesnt matter if polling is stable


Are you talking to me?


----------



## Sencha




----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Why?
> 
> Chances are that when you move your mouse fast enought to go over 2m/s your picture ingame, even with a low sensitivity, will move way too fast to react to anything you might see or to still be able to stop at the right moment and be precise.
> So what's the point (of making those crazy fast movements with your arm)?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> this is what i think as well


Shooting more than one target in close range, gungame, hearing foosteps behind you and tuning last second, catching a glimpse of a second runaway target when you are already shooting at one, jumping in the middle of n00bs and killing one in front and one behind you, ecc...

Playing games that are not CS...

As much as it can be done even with a mlt04 based mouse it's far from ideal.


----------



## mtzgr

I think some people don't realize how fast you would be moving your arm if you were moving your mouse over 2 m/s (let alone 3) on a regular basis. I play/aim with my arm, with 49cm/360, shooting nothing but flick shots (rails/awp), and my movement doesn't come close to 2 m/s. Looking at this log most of it falls between 0.5 - 1 m/s.

I'd love to see someone record their gameplay along with their mouse movement to see how it is you aren't fatigued after 5-10 minutes.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> But there's definitely something wrong with the software with the 2 mice I have.
> I didn't even suspect the software was causing the problem when I installed it on my secound mouse (so probably no placebo), but when I did I went from "Love this mouse so much!" to "nope, can't deal with this, back to my old mouse!" instantly.


The software can brick the mouse. The cause is still unknown. Might be changing the polling rate or the "reset all profiles" option. Might only happen on some hardware, but not on others. It's just too much risk, do not use it people. If you have to set the mouse up, do so initially and then kill the software after. Don't switch LED colors for fun with it and do not leave it installed unless you block "monitor.exe" from loading with Windows.


----------



## k0fz

After playing around with the software I started to aim crappy, it felt like negative acceleration. I can reach around 4 m/s in Enotus, so I guess nothing happened to the malfunction speed.

Do you get green lines on an untouched Aurora too? http://oi57.tinypic.com/30ccfpt.jpg


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> I think some people don't realize how fast you would be moving your arm if you were moving your mouse over 2 m/s (let alone 3) on a regular basis. I play/aim with my arm, with 49cm/360, shooting nothing but flick shots (rails/awp), and my movement doesn't come close to 2 m/s. Looking at this log most of it falls between 0.5 - 1 m/s.
> 
> I'd love to see someone record their gameplay along with their mouse movement to see how it is you aren't fatigued after 5-10 minutes.


I see people stating they need more than 3m/s, yet they are using a high sensitivity. I ask them to record themselves playing to prove the necessity of such malfunction speeds, but they never do. At least a demo of how they play... I can understand needing 3m/s (or more) for trick jumping in certain games, however, usually in those type of games you will have a medium to high sensitivity.

I have played GO with a sensitivity that requires ~34cm to do a 180. This required a lot of flicking/fast motions to reach the maximum speed the sensitivity provides. I wouldn't reach past 3m/s with such a play style. In GO this play style made me tire out faster, but it took hours as I am generally used to it. I couldn't play something like two best of threes in the same day without dropping in performance because of shoulder fatigue. Because of fatigue and the mechanics in GO I increased my sensitivity to ~28cm for a 180. It doesn't sound like much, for me it is. Now I would be less likely to reach 2.7-3.2m/s with this low to medium sensitivity. A lot of players have a much higher sensitivity than mine.


----------



## Melan

I used 58cm/360 in CSGO and almost never hit 3m/s (on g302). Now at 65cm I easily go 3m/s but still, it's only necessary when someone's behind me.


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> I used 58cm/360 in CSGO and almost never hit 3m/s (on g302). Now at 65cm I easily go 3m/s but still, it's only necessary when someone's behind me.


please record yourself playing, i'd really like to see that, lol.


----------



## Melan

I use 303 now. I easily go 2m/s on 90 degree turn.


----------



## mtzgr

Where are you getting your numbers from, because I suspect you're just plucking 3s out of the air. I just went into CSGO and set my sensitivity to [email protected] (which is 65cm/360 which you said you use), and my full-speed swipes doing "instant" 180s were at or below 2 m/s.

Also my shoulder is broken.


----------



## Melan

I run enotus along side any game when I need to know what max speed i reach. And before you go "ololol enotus is inaccurate omg" on short fast swipes it gives me roughly the same values as mouse tester.

I don't "pluck" number out of the air. Otherwise I'd be the same as certain "feelers" on this forum that "feel" minimal difference in hardware performance.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> Where are you getting your numbers from, because I suspect you're just plucking 3s out of the air. I just went into CSGO and set my sensitivity to [email protected] (which is 65cm/360 which you said you use), and my full-speed swipes doing "instant" 180s were at or below 2 m/s.
> 
> Also my shoulder is broken.


I don't understand why you'd think it's impossible to hit 2m/s either. When I had the FK (malfunctions at 3m/s(?) can't remember exactly), I had it fail on me mid round when trying to dodge flashes that I spotted at the last second. It happened only twice over many months, but that's not the point.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> I don't understand why you'd think it's impossible to hit 2m/s either.


I never said this.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> I run enotus along side any game when I need to know what max speed i reach. And before you go "ololol enotus is inaccurate omg" on short fast swipes it gives me roughly the same values as mouse tester.
> 
> I don't "pluck" number out of the air. Otherwise I'd be the same as certain "feelers" on this forum that "feel" minimal difference in hardware performance.


Fair enough, my bad for assuming otherwise. I still wouldn't call trying to rip my shoulder out of it's socket "easily hitting 3 m/s."


----------



## CorruptBE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3fvqLlzS-g&feature=youtu.be

Derp

Occasionally hit over 4 m/s ingame.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3fvqLlzS-g&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Derp
> 
> Occasionally hit over 4 m/s ingame.


It'd be nice to see some gameplay at the same time, otherwise there's no context and it's just a video of you swiping a mouse really fast. Either way I stand corrected.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> It'd be nice to see some gameplay at the same time, otherwise there's no context and it's just a video of you swiping a mouse really fast. Either way I stand corrected.


I'm not even swiping as fast as I can... that would be well over 5 m/s, which I don't hit ingame. I need about 4 m/s with a little headroom. It's recorded with a cellphone camera, doubt I can set this up for ingame footage properly.


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I'm not even swiping as fast as I can... that would be well over 5 m/s, which I don't hit ingame. I need about 4 m/s with a little headroom. It's recorded with a cellphone camera, doubt I can set this up for ingame footage properly.


anyone can do that when they aren't trying to aim at something. i'll be waiting on you and melan to post videos of you doing 3 m/s swipes and actually hitting anything in game.


----------



## Melan

Aim at 3m/s? Unless you're a machine it's not possible. Turning at 3m/s is easy, however you turn at high speed, stop and aim more precisely at way lower speed. Malfunction speed needs to be high not because you need to aim at enormous speed but to turn fast without crosshairs snapping at your feet/sky.
Of course with triggerbot everything is possible.


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Aim at 3m/s? Unless you're a machine it's not possible. Turning at 3m/s is easy, however you turn at high speed, stop and aim more precisely at way lower speed. Malfunction speed needs to be high not because you need to aim at enormous speed but to turn fast without crosshairs snapping at your feet/sky.
> Of course with triggerbot everything is possible.


if someone is shooting at you and you're trying to respond to them, you're not going to land anywhere near them with a 3 m/s swipe, lol. that's what i meant.


----------



## Melan

You will if you play long enough on one sensitivity. Why do you think people don't like acceleration and inconsistencies in mice? It's the main reason why laser sensors are poop.


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> You will if you play long enough on one sensitivity. Why do you think people don't like acceleration and inconsistencies in mice? It's the main reason why laser sensors are poop.


3 m/s isn't controllable, it's that simple. you are not going to develop muscle memory that will allow you to do a 3 m/s swipe every time.

good acceleration is consistent, ie quake. people don't like acceleration because they think that the windows implementation of it is what all acceleration is like (which is also consistent? i don't know.) acceleration in mice sensors is the worst because it's inconsistent.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Aim at 3m/s? Unless you're a machine it's not possible. Turning at 3m/s is easy, however you turn at high speed, stop and aim more precisely at way lower speed. Malfunction speed needs to be high not because you need to aim at enormous speed but to turn fast without crosshairs snapping at your feet/sky.
> Of course with triggerbot everything is possible.


well, ofcoarse you can't because to stop on an enemy you can't be traveling at 3m/s by definition. And you can't instantly go from 3m/s to 0. Its more like 0 to .2 to .5 to 1 to 1.8 to 3 to 1.8 to .5 to .2 to 0. So When you start slowing down can you maybe prolong or shorten the time it takes to stop depending on where an enemy is? Yep, have done it many times. I have also done flick shots where i definitely was 3m/s+ and never stopped and just got lucky with the timing of the shot and got the kill that way.


----------



## Melan

Just because you can't control it doesn't mean other people can't. You really remind me of these battlefield admins that tend to ban you on grounds that "I can't do it so you shouldn't either".


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Just because you can't control it doesn't mean other people can't.


and some random can because he says so? i think not, otherwise most pro quake players wouldn't use a wmo. either you are severely overestimating how fast you're moving your mouse or you actually do swipe at 3+ m/s and your gameplay suffers because of it. i'm done.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Aim at 3m/s? Unless you're a machine it's not possible. Turning at 3m/s is easy, however you turn at high speed, stop and aim more precisely at way lower speed. Malfunction speed needs to be high not because you need to aim at enormous speed but to turn fast without crosshairs snapping at your feet/sky.
> Of course with triggerbot everything is possible.


Well that's obvious.

Fast flicks and then a tiny twitch on top usually.

My hand kind of cramps together after every flick from a more "palmish" to a more "clawish" grip.

But never the less, the idea that people can't reach those speeds easily ingame is moot tbh. I think it also depends more on playstyle, how relaxed you are as a person (relaxed person vs a more tense person, how your muscles tense up, etc).

In Quake I found myself actually reaching lower speeds except for specific occasions because I could "steer" my angles more with movement. CS/BF is more stationary and thus you kind of "snap" more from target to target.

Also, I've seen plenty of videos of pro quakers, a TON of their shots are simply prefires tbh. I wasn't amazed by their aim, I was more amazed from their knowledge of what the enemy was doing based upon their experience, etc in 1v1's.


----------



## Melan

You know, I'm not even gonna bother anymore. If you don't believe me - fine, your problem. I'm done here.


----------



## Vantavia

Oh hello mister BST, a driver update just for me? Why thank you. For a minute there I thought you was going to ignore the issues with the aurora and expect people to still buy mice from you.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I'm not even swiping as fast as I can... that would be well over 5 m/s, which I don't hit ingame. I need about 4 m/s with a little headroom. It's recorded with a cellphone camera, doubt I can set this up for ingame footage properly.


I mean I can swipe over 5 m/s but it's not practical or useful--only thing it's good for is injuring my shoulder.






I couldn't get my webcam propped overhead, but you can kinda get the idea. I don't go over 1.33 m/s through regular play, and even intentionally embellishing my turns I didn't hit 1.5 m/s. Also enotus is reporting ~0.5 m/s over Mouse Tester, so I'm not even sure what to conclude there. Obviously your sensitivity dictates your mouse movement (or is it the other way around?), but even with 65cm I don't use much more than 2 m/s. I'm not trying to tell anyone how they should be playing (I mean I suck), but moving a mouse that fast seems really inefficient. I didn't think people actually hit 4 m/s during regular use but if they do rock on.


----------



## Melan

You know you can just set OBS to record a "mouse speed" window right?


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> You know you can just set OBS to record a "mouse speed" window right?


Uhhh, nope. Don't know what you mean.


----------



## Melan

Go to OBS > create new window capture > select enotus > Sub-Region > Select region > go to enotus and adjust overlay. It works only if you have second monitor where rest of your stuff at.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Go to OBS > create new window capture > select enotus > Sub-Region > Select region > go to enotus and adjust overlay. It works only if you have second monitor where rest of your stuff at.


Lol, oh. I thought you meant OBS can record your mouse speed or something. Yeah I know I could have cut the rest of the window out but I was lazy and just added it.


----------



## Vantavia

enotus seems to come up with a far higher m/s than mousetester


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> enotus seems to come up with a far higher m/s than mousetester


really? i was able to get up to 5.5 m/s on my aurora with mousetester but enotus was only showing about 3.5.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> enotus seems to come up with a far higher m/s than mousetester


Some times pressing the buttons while swiping can cause a flawed test result. Also, you have to measure your CPI manually and calculate the max speed points to obtain the proper result.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> enotus seems to come up with a far higher m/s than mousetester


Some times pressing the buttons while swiping can cause a flawed test result. Also, you have to measure your CPI manually and calculate the max speed points to obtain the proper result.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3fvqLlzS-g&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Derp
> 
> Occasionally hit over 4 m/s ingame.


What is your sensitivity?


----------



## 7Teku

And here I am. Sitting here making zowie mice malfunction with every 180 turn.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> And here I am. Sitting here making zowie mice malfunction with every 180 turn.


What is your sensitivity/cm and mouse pad?


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> And here I am. Sitting here making zowie mice malfunction with every 180 turn.


This post has literally zero content. Same applies to my post.


----------



## ragemuffin

My playstyle is similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRIvAYxuZfk
I don't really mind how people play: (low, mid, high) rock on.
It's just that for me, specifically, I need it to not malfunction at a certain speed.

I'm not gonna rip on people for the way they play.
I can't really just all of a sudden change playstyle, considering my muscle memory has been built up over the years.
If you can play without malfunctioning, more power to you I guess.

Also, I wouldn't have bought these mice if regular mice weren't an issue malfunction-speed wise


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> My playstyle is similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRIvAYxuZfk


Thing is he is not moving the mouse anywhere near 3 m/s.


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What is your sensitivity/cm and mouse pad?


I change my sens often, but the highest sens I've used in the past year is 60 cm/360, but I go as low as 120 cm/360. Currently 70 cm/360 since g100s can't handle anything lower than that reliably without accel.

I use an Xtrac XXL cut down to 50x45 cm used vertically.

Also talking about 3090 zowie mice


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> My playstyle is similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRIvAYxuZfk


That's about 2-3m/s. Most likely reaching about 2.8m/s during fast swipes.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> I change my sens often, but the highest sens I've used in the past year is 60 cm/360, but I go as low as 120 cm/360. Currently 70 cm/360 since g100s can't handle anything lower than that reliably without accel.
> 
> I use an Xtrac XXL cut down to 50x45 cm used vertically.
> 
> Also talking about 3090 zowie mice


How do you play any games at 120cm for a 360? If you are playing GO at such a sensitivity you can barely track a target. With such low sensitivities it doesn't make sense to move the mouse faster than 3m/s because you will cap out the cursor speed very easily.

I have used a sensitivity of 68cm for a 360. I never had a 3090 Zowie mouse malfunction on me. I never reach into the 3m/s range with such a sensitivity. The malfunction speed of the 3090 Zowie mice is ~3.5m/s. I could malfunction a G100S if I fling the mouse around without proper technique. Most of the time people have malfunctions with the 3090 mice because they use mouse pads that don't work very well with the 3090 Zowie mice and fling their mouse faster than is actually needed for their sensitivity.


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> How do you play any games at 120cm for a 360? If you are playing GO at such a sensitivity you can barely track a target. With such low sensitivities it doesn't make sense to move the mouse faster than 3m/s because you will cap out the cursor speed very easily.
> 
> I have used a sensitivity of 68cm for a 360. I never had a 3090 Zowie mouse malfunction on me. I never reach into the 3m/s range with such a sensitivity. The malfunction speed of the 3090 Zowie mice is ~3.5m/s. I could malfunction a G100S if I fling the mouse around without proper technique. Most of the time people have malfunctions with the 3090 mice because they use mouse pads that don't work very well with the 3090 Zowie mice and fling their mouse faster than is actually needed for their sensitivity.


120 cm was a phase I went through for about a month, but even then, I had no problems with using it. These days I usually play between 70-90 cm/360.

I have no problem trace aiming with ultra low sens with my mousing style. When I used to use my Rival in FFA HSmod or even TDM in BF3, I had no problems with it skipping and almost always played between 3-5 m/s. I've always had problems with 3090 zowie, g400s, DA's, etc.

The problem is that I fell in love with the g100s shape... which doesn't have a fast sensor at all, even though it feels MUCH better than all other mice I've used (except for ime 3.0)


----------



## jonbrabham

i just plugged this mouse in to give it another try / test and i noticed that the bottom of the mouse is not flat. sitting on a flat surface it will rock diagonally. installing more mouse feet could stop the rocking, but then it would be permanently skewed compared to the mousing surface. anyone else have this problem?

jon


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What is your sensitivity?


360° rotation:
46.6647 cm

It can vary a slight wee bit from game to game and depending on FOV, but in general it's about 40 to 50 cm for a 360°.

Lower becomes cumbersome (can't turn 180's fast enough anymore).


----------



## RentoN

So since it seems like I'm not the only one who had problems with the software, I wanted to ask if there is any way to revert the mouse to it's default and make it like I never installed the software at all?
At this point I'd even deal with the stupid red light if it means I can use my Aurora again.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> So since it seems like I'm not the only one who had problems with the software, I wanted to ask if there is any way to revert the mouse to it's default and make it like I never installed the software at all?
> At this point I'd even deal with the stupid red light if it means I can use my Aurora again.


Nope, that's why we're all mad.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jonbrabham*
> 
> i just plugged this mouse in to give it another try / test and i noticed that the bottom of the mouse is not flat. sitting on a flat surface it will rock diagonally. installing more mouse feet could stop the rocking, but then it would be permanently skewed compared to the mousing surface. anyone else have this problem?
> 
> jon


This happens to a lot of mice. and i really hate it. The people just don't notice with their cloth pads. Plus it's hard to notice on mice with bigger mousefeets.


----------



## jonbrabham

FYI,

my tracking / "clown cursor" troubles appear to be mousing surface related. i currently use a WMO 1.0 w/o any mouse pad. i have the mouse directly on my wood (particle board + fake wood veneer) desk and it doesn't have any trouble. i did not want to drop any money on a mouse pad just for it to still not work correctly. i put a piece of paper under the mouse and all of my problems seem to go away. repeated quick swipes track correctly (400 dpi). removing the paper causes immediate, repeatable failures ("clown cursor").

perhaps the issue has never been software related per bst's testing? it could be mousing surface or certain batches of mice hardware?

anyway, i am in the market for a large mouse pad now. considering qck+, talent, etc.

jon


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jonbrabham*
> 
> FYI,
> 
> my tracking / "clown cursor" troubles appear to be mousing surface related. i currently use a WMO 1.0 w/o any mouse pad. i have the mouse directly on my wood (particle board + fake wood veneer) desk and it doesn't have any trouble. i did not want to drop any money on a mouse pad just for it to still not work correctly. i put a piece of paper under the mouse and all of my problems seem to go away. repeated quick swipes track correctly (400 dpi). removing the paper causes immediate, repeatable failures ("clown cursor").
> 
> perhaps the issue has never been software related per bst's testing? it could be mousing surface or certain batches of mice hardware?
> 
> anyway, i am in the market for a large mouse pad now. considering qck+, talent, etc.
> 
> jon


I guess most of those other people who have reported problems with tracking after installing the software did have a proper gaming mouse pad and it's probably not the same one for each person.
So if the mouse has tracking problems on multiple different gaming mouse pads, including the most popular one (QcK) it should be fair to say there's a problem with the software.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> I guess most of those other people who have reported problems with tracking after installing the software did have a proper gaming mouse pad and it's probably not the same one for each person.
> So if the mouse has tracking problems on multiple different gaming mouse pads, including the most popular one (QcK) it should be fair to say there's a problem with the software.


Why would an enthusiast go though the effort of buying an obscure brand of mouse yet not even use a mouse mat?

I'm using a Qpad FX90, I'm not one of those idiots that expects a mouse to track on wood. It's a high quality deskmat, like a puretrak talent but less spongy/stretchy.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> Why would an enthusiast go though the effort of buying an obscure brand of mouse yet not even use a mouse mat?
> 
> I'm using a Qpad FX90, I'm not one of those idiots that expects a mouse to track on wood. It's a high quality deskmat, like a puretrak talent but less spongy/stretchy.


That's exactly what I'm saying?
Most people who used this mouse will probably have done so on a gaming mouse pad.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> That's exactly what I'm saying?
> Most people who used this mouse will probably have done so on a gaming mouse pad.


My bad, I must have misread/misinterpreted.


----------



## aLv1080

@bst

So, I still want to buy your mouse but amazon still not shipping it to my country.
What should I do?


----------



## copterguise

Almost exactly 6 months now. No mouse, no refund. Only the usual "yeah PayPal is fixed now so it'll be any day", followed by long silence and more complications in regards to PayPal. I'm sure we'll know more after another hiatus. And then rinse and repeat. This is asinine.


What a joke.


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> @bst
> 
> So, I still want to buy your mouse but amazon still not shipping it to my country.
> What should I do?


Same. Wanna buy a reserve one.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *copterguise*
> 
> Almost exactly 6 months now. No mouse, no refund. Only the usual "yeah PayPal is fixed now so it'll be any day", followed by long silence and more complications in regards to PayPal. I'm sure we'll know more after another hiatus. And then rinse and repeat. This is asinine.
> 
> 
> What a joke.


Why didn't you just deal with the refund via resolution centre?


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Why didn't you just deal with the refund via resolution centre?


Because there's deadlines for that and all of them have expired.
Why did they expire? Well, because bst wrote several times here and in ESR that we should keep on waiting for the product to arrive, that it was going to be good (it sucks) and that in any case he was going to issue the refunds himself....that exactly for those periods of time. No idea if he did it on purpose or not, as if you take a look at the dates he only shows up precisely at those dates, but it really ended up working in his favor.

Still no refund here, still he hasn't even send the order, same six months period. To be honest I was a supporter of this since 2011, but at this point I can safely say that bst is not a trustworthy person, and that goes for this mouse project and for whatever he does next. I say that based on that if I really wanted to send money to someone I could do it in 5 seconds, whether with my main paypal account or by asking someone else to do it, so him taking 6 months and counting for that means that he isn't interested in doing so.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> Because there's deadlines for that and all of them have expired.
> Why did they expire? Well, because bst wrote several times here and in ESR that we should keep on waiting for the product to arrive, that it was going to be good (it sucks) and that in any case he was going to issue the refunds himself....that exactly for those periods of time. No idea if he did it on purpose or not, as if you take a look at the dates he only shows up precisely at those dates, but it really ended up working in his favor.
> 
> Still no refund here, still he hasn't even send the order, same six months period. To be honest I was a supporter of this since 2011, but at this point I can safely say that bst is not a trustworthy person, and that goes for this mouse project and for whatever he does next. I say that based on that if I really wanted to send money to someone I could do it in 5 seconds, whether with my main paypal account or by asking someone else to do it, so him taking 6 months and counting for that means that he isn't interested in doing so.


Well I'm sorry for those that have fallen prey to this delay tactic. I too have in the pass and it sucks. Never again. Always stay inside the Paypal deadline what ever the seller says. Again I'm sorry to those that have been stung. Its a shame so many gave him the benefit of the doubt. BST please man up and sort out your mess ASAP.


----------



## detto87

As long as I haven't got my money back I will bombard and flame every single thing he's posting online for his new mice.


----------



## derrflyn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *derrflyn*
> 
> Bst, gone AWOL again huh?
> 
> This is getting really old.


----------



## heern

Motherboard Model: Abit IP35 (Intel P35+ICH9R)
Motherboard Chipset: Intel P35 (Bearlake-P) + ICH9R


----------



## wmoftw

I had high hopes for this mouse. He said he would send me a beta prototype, it never came. I held back on purchase in case of first run issues, oh boy was that a good idea.

It's a shame, we don't get mice with that shape very often.

it's funny, OC and ESR help him make a mice and he self destructs. GG


----------



## 7Teku

So I picked up an Aurora... and while it feels great, for some reason it's malfunctioning more than my G100s. Like in enotus, I'll swipe slow and it'll just to 5 m/s. I've even double stacked the mouse feet, because I heard that could fix the PCS issue, but it did nothing.

And now it barely goes above 3 m/s...


----------



## Sencha

Surely stacking the mouse feet would lower the PCS?


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Surely stacking the mouse feet would lower the PCS?


The thing is that it didn't lower the PCS at all. It would go up to 5 m/s because it would malfunction.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Can we get some xvelocity graphs from everyone who owns this mouse and hasn't posted one already? I'm curious to see how much variance there is in sensor performance.

Variables to note are:

* Hz of the mouse (preferably post both 500 and 1000)
* OS
* Having previously manually installed KB2908279 on win 8.1
* Windows power plan, c-states on/off in BIOS


----------



## nittwit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Can we get some xvelocity graphs from everyone who owns this mouse and hasn't posted one already? I'm curious to see how much variance there is in sensor performance.
> 
> Variables to note are:
> 
> * Hz of the mouse (preferably post both 500 and 1000)
> * OS
> * Having previously manually installed KB2908279 on win 8.1
> * Windows power plan, c-states on/off in BIOS


Don't have it. But this is a Genius Maurus that uses the same sensor, but with the 3500 dpi srom.






*500Hz
*Windows 10
*X
*Any power-saving feature is off.

Is it supossed to be good or bad?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Can we get some xvelocity graphs from everyone who owns this mouse and hasn't posted one already? I'm curious to see how much variance there is in sensor performance.
> 
> Variables to note are:
> 
> * Hz of the mouse (preferably post both 500 and 1000)
> * OS
> * Having previously manually installed KB2908279 on win 8.1
> * Windows power plan, c-states on/off in BIOS


i've posted on esr about this previously.
it's weird... basically it spikes every 15ms or so. like in interval you'd see 11111111111111112111111111111111211111111111121111111111111111112
pretty sure it's a firmware issue unrelated to the sensor itself, but since no once noticed it well whatever


----------



## 7Teku

Out of 30 or so tests, this is pretty much what I get, for both 500 and 1000 hz.



1000 hz, Win 7, no powersaving


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> The thing is that it didn't lower the PCS at all. It would go up to 5 m/s because it would malfunction.


Ahh I see


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Out of 30 or so tests, this is pretty much what I get, for both 500 and 1000 hz.
> 
> 
> 
> 1000 hz, Win 7, no powersaving


Yeah, that's with stacked mouse feet right? I think yours qualifies as defective.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> i've posted on esr about this previously.
> it's weird... basically it spikes every 15ms or so. like in interval you'd see 11111111111111112111111111111111211111111111121111111111111111112
> pretty sure it's a firmware issue unrelated to the sensor itself, but since no once noticed it well whatever


Can you link/post it here? I couldn't find it there.

My friend was getting interval variance like that with his WMO because of something running in the background. Have you posted xvelocity graphs anywhere?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't have it. But this is a Genius Maurus that uses the same sensor, but with the 3500 dpi srom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *500Hz
> *Windows 10
> *X
> *Any power-saving feature is off.
> 
> Is it supossed to be good or bad?


Thanks, but sensor implementation varies greatly from mouse to mouse, so they're not comparable because every mouse with a 3310 sensor for example feels and performs differently.

Also I don't know what your 2nd graph is, but your last 2 graphs are missing the back half. Some guy in another thread was having that issue and I think it was solved by resetting his CMOS.


----------



## qsxcv

http://esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2703355

http://i.imgur.com/nWeB27G.png
http://i.imgur.com/MUCtjCr.png

again, it looks really bad but apparently no one notices it...
i hope that no one's perception of the mouse's performance is influenced by seeing this.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Also I don't know what your 2nd graph is, but your last 2 graphs are missing the back half. Some guy in another thread was having that issue and I think it was solved by resetting his CMOS.


think about what's going on for a bit...
it's far more likely that he reached the edge of his mousepad, lifted his mouse up, or unclicked while the mouse was still moving.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> http://esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2703355
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/nWeB27G.png
> http://i.imgur.com/MUCtjCr.png
> 
> again, it looks really bad but apparently no one notices it...
> i hope that no one's perception of the mouse's performance is influenced by seeing this.
> think about what's going on for a bit...
> it's far more likely that he reached the edge of his mousepad, lifted his mouse up, or unclicked while the mouse was still moving.


Only xcount graphs there, and your update time graph needs to have the ends cut off so it zooms in more.


----------



## qsxcv

it just bounces up to 2ms every 15ms or so

ignoring the 2ms points, the 1ms points are stable (<10us)


----------



## plath

So what's up with bst is he still designing the successor to the aurora with the newer sensor?


----------



## pr0l4nd

no, it will be new shape


----------



## detto87

Guess I already paid for my preoder for the new bst mouse then, because I haven't received anything (back) yet from bst concerning the Aurora.


----------



## avensvvvvvv

I think it's high time to close this thread. There shouldn't be free publicity here for someone that owes refunds to several customers, for over half a year and counting.


----------



## Coreda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> I think it's high time to close this thread. There shouldn't be free publicity here for someone that owes refunds to several customers, for over half a year and counting.


On the contrary, such threads should be kept open for discussion, especially for problems users have.


----------



## plath

yeah but has he posted anywhere recently. haven't seen any news about what he's up to in a while.


----------



## uNfEiL

Whats up with the Finalmouse 2015? Is it released yet? Cant find where to buy it. Also, what do you guys think about it? Worth to buy? Will it be really the "best" mouse for players?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&index=2&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - it has the possibility to be the best. Their updated summer model should fix most of the issues mentioned. I have high hopes that their 2016 model may be the finalmouse I have to buy.


----------



## uNfEiL

That's kind of like a strange feeling when you're gonna buy a mouse knowing there will be some update on it later on. But I hope this summer edition is not going to be as much inferior as the upcoming 2016.
What was your main issue with the "old" FM edition Max?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Tracking issues most likely caused by poor quality control.


----------



## uNfEiL

Very excited to see whether or not they fixed the most important thing - "DPI steps not set properly".


----------



## Hittys

Can someone report a mobo make/OS with which the drivers actually worked with no issues ? Not being able to access 400 dpi is becoming unbearable


----------



## m1hka

ASUS P8Z77-V LX / Win7 x64


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hittys*
> 
> Can someone report a mobo make/OS with which the drivers actually worked with no issues ? Not being able to access 400 dpi is becoming unbearable


MSI Z87-G45 @ W8.1 64


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Very excited to see whether or not they fixed the most important thing - "DPI steps not set properly".


FM's already fixed that.


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> FM's already fixed that.


You mean the problem causing e. g. 400 dpi actually being like 440+- or so (and at the higher DPIs even bigger differences)?

Really excited about this mouse but some of the amazon reviews keeping me away from it. Like there's a lot of them saying mouse lasts for just about 2 months... So I'm not sure.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, I think the non-exact DPI numbers were due to surface calibration. It was seen in a number of recent mice, and FM fixed theirs with the firmware update. The mouse not lasting long could be due to low quality manufacturing, which might be one of the reasons they moved to a new factory (along with the manufacturing quality causing major variance in sensor performance).


----------



## plath

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&index=2&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - it has the possibility to be the best. Their updated summer model should fix most of the issues mentioned. I have high hopes that their 2016 model may be the finalmouse I have to buy.


it doesn't have 1000hz polling rate.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

1000hz is mostly irrelevant.


----------



## plath

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> 1000hz is mostly irrelevant.


It might be a question of only 1-5ms but I wouldn't buy or rate a mouse that's not 1000hz. Just like I won't buy a Zowie because of it's switch latency even though everything else might be great. Mice manufacturers should seek to make their mice as close to perfect as possible and 1000hz is a common standard.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

That's just ridiculous. FM's sensor performs so much better than the vast majority of mice. Rejecting it for only being 500hz is like choosing a cessna because your jet has a bad paint job.


----------



## trhead

More like,

1000hz = jet,
500hz = cessna

I always choose 1000hz because I play old fps games with 1000+ fps and 500hz just ain't as smooth.


----------



## plath

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That's just ridiculous. FM's sensor performs so much better than the vast majority of mice. Rejecting it for only being 500hz is like choosing a cessna because your jet has a bad paint job.


I have an Aurora. It meets more of the criteria right now than a Finalmouse. Although I'd love to try the FM's shell.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I had an Aurora too. FM's sensor is much better.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I had an Aurora too. FM's sensor is much better.


Unlike the FinalMouse the Aurora was easily bought from around the world, even I got 3 of them, when they were selling them.


----------



## nittwit

I really can't tell the difference between the sensors. Even with my really cheap chinese garbage generic bluetooth mouse, but with a godlike shape i can still play as good as with my G303/FinalMouse/Aurora/EC2-A/etc. Each one of the mice that i have feels raw, i don't feel any input lag or any other stupid thing that everybody cry about sensors.

My response time is 167ms average with a cheap ass samsung 60hz hdtv.


----------



## qsxcv

i feel the same way in general thought admittedly i haven't tried any mice where people have complained that the sensor is exceptionally bad. well actually i do like the feel of the mlt04 mice better than any avago-based ones, but i can't quite get used to the sensor placement on the wmo


----------



## copterguise

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Unlike the FinalMouse the Aurora was easily bought from around the world, even I got 3 of them, when they were selling them.


You're lucky. I've paid for one, and after *over 6 months* and counting, I have neither mouse nor my money back.


----------



## thrillhaus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That's just ridiculous. FM's sensor performs so much better than the vast majority of mice. Rejecting it for only being 500hz is like choosing a cessna because your jet has a bad paint job.


That analogy is ridiculous.

Rejecting a jet with a bad paint job would be equivalent to rejecting a 1000hz mouse with a bad paint job.

Polling rate is a matter of performance not aesthetics, even if the significance is up for debate.


----------



## plath

Waiting on the next Ninox mouse with the Avago 3310 in it. But haven't seen any news from BST?


----------



## a_ak57

You'll probably be waiting years for a 3310 mouse from him.


----------



## copterguise

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> You'll probably be waiting years for a 3310 mouse from him.


Or rather, years to even get what you paid for to begin with, 3310 or not. bst is a crook.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> I really can't tell the difference between the sensors. Even with my really cheap chinese garbage generic bluetooth mouse, but with a godlike shape i can still play as good as with my G303/FinalMouse/Aurora/EC2-A/etc. Each one of the mice that i have feels raw, i don't feel any input lag or any other stupid thing that everybody cry about sensors.
> 
> My response time is 167ms average with a cheap ass samsung 60hz hdtv.


Well I'm going to be blunt... it's a difference which is rather "hard" to notice, most likely masked by the Samsung 60 Hz TV. I doubt if I would notice some of this stuff if I didn't have a 120 Hz monitor.

The thing that astounds me the most though, after all this babbling about smoothing and what not on these forums, is my own recorded shadowplay footage.

While "overall" I don't play better with it, the way I can see myself tracking targets with a 3366 G303 compared to a 3310 FK2 is rather... big.

Shape is still a much more important factor at times, but my tracking of moving targets looks tons better on the 3366 (or a better 3310 implementation for that matter).

The FK2 looks like a struggle whereas the G303 tracking looks like I'm floating on air, smoothly following every move.


----------



## qsxcv

mind posting an example clip? maybe without telling us which is which so we can make an unbiased judgement
i'd imagine that it is much much easier to see the smoothness of tracking in-game than from 60fps or whatever shadowplay footage


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plath*
> 
> Waiting on the next Ninox mouse with the Avago 3310 in it. But haven't seen any news from BST?


Because he collected all the money withouth shipping anything.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *copterguise*
> 
> Or rather, years to even get what you paid for to begin with, 3310 or not. bst is a crook.


This.


----------



## nittwit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Well I'm going to be blunt... it's a difference which is rather "hard" to notice, most likely masked by the Samsung 60 Hz TV. I doubt if I would notice some of this stuff if I didn't have a 120 Hz monitor.
> 
> The thing that astounds me the most though, after all this babbling about smoothing and what not on these forums, is my own recorded shadowplay footage.
> 
> While "overall" I don't play better with it, the way I can see myself tracking targets with a 3366 G303 compared to a 3310 FK2 is rather... big.
> 
> Shape is still a much more important factor at times, but my tracking of moving targets looks tons better on the 3366 (or a better 3310 implementation for that matter).
> 
> The FK2 looks like a struggle whereas the G303 tracking looks like I'm floating on air, smoothly following every move.


Try to use the highest dpi on the FK2 and a very low sensitivity in-game, if that isn't smooth enough for you use 1000Hz. For me all the sensors feel the same, so i just focus on the shape of the mouse.

Maybe it's because of the stiffness of the clicks. This'll sound stupid, but i think you're not focused entirely on the game when you're playing with the FK2, It can be because of the stiffness of the clicks, or the shape of the mouse, while with the G303 a "shape that you don't like" you can focus entirely on the game, because it has very light clicks or a shape that you don't need to worry about pain in your arm or hand, or a shape that you know you don't like, so you focus more to offset.

It's all in your mind.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> I really can't tell the difference between the sensors. Even with my really cheap chinese garbage generic bluetooth mouse, but with a godlike shape i can still play as good as with my G303/FinalMouse/Aurora/EC2-A/etc. Each one of the mice that i have feels raw, i don't feel any input lag or any other stupid thing that everybody cry about sensors.
> 
> My response time is 167ms average with a cheap ass samsung 60hz hdtv.


Game(s), hardware, settings?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thrillhaus*
> 
> That analogy is ridiculous.
> 
> Rejecting a jet with a bad paint job would be equivalent to rejecting a 1000hz mouse with a bad paint job.
> 
> Polling rate is a matter of performance not aesthetics, even if the significance is up for debate.


I concede that there may be some games and FPS margins which make the difference more apparent. But I have never came across one that would make me choose a worse performing sensor due to 1000hz over 500.


----------



## nittwit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Game(s), hardware, settings?


Quke Lif, Counter Autism Global ******ation and Tera.

i7 2600k 5.3 Ghz
x2 HD 7950 1200/1575 Mhz (i disable one when i'm going to play quke or ca:gr)
8Gb Corsair Vengeance 1800 Mhz 7-7-7-7
Gigabyte z77x-ud3h

Maxed out ofc, low settings doesn't make a difference other than higher fps, but if you already have more than 120 fps in-game with max settings, why would you use low settings, brah? Don't tell me anything about the post-proccesing bs.

Maxie, stop lying to yourself, you don't notice a difference from a sensor to another. Admit that you're a troll and you like to make people waste money on buying stupid mice, telling them "it has a better sensor. Best sensor out there, 10/10. Buy it naow cuz yes." I bought a FM too, and the quality of this expensive piece of garbage is just so poor that i regret it, and i do like to waste money on stupid things and i never regret it.

Or did the tards of FM payed you to talk blessings about that piece of garbage? LELELELEL, bist mausy yvar.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> Maxie, stop lying to yourself, you don't notice a difference from a sensor to another. Admit that you're a troll and you like to make people waste money on buying stupid mice, telling them "it has a better sensor. Best sensor out there, 10/10. Buy it naow cuz yes." I bought a FM too, and the quality of this expensive piece of garbage is just so poor that i regret it, and i do like to waste money on stupid things and i never regret it.
> 
> Or did the tards of FM payed you to talk blessings about that piece of garbage? LELELELEL, bist mausy yvar.


lol.

If anything, I do the opposite. I've been saying the vast majority of "gaming" mice released in the past 10 years have been utter garbage. But there's absolutely a huge difference between them.
And you probably haven't seen my review of the FM if you think they pay me to sing their praises.

I assume you're on a 120/144hz monitor and mouse accel is disabled?


----------



## nittwit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> lol.
> 
> If anything, I do the opposite. I've been saying the vast majority of "gaming" mice released in the past 10 years have been utter garbage. But there's absolutely a huge difference between them.
> And you probably haven't seen my review of the FM if you think they pay me to sing their praises.
> 
> I assume you're on a 120/144hz monitor and mouse accel is disabled?


60hz and ofc it's disabled, why would i use acceleration with such a high sens?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> 60hz and ofc it's disabled, why would i use acceleration with such a high sens?


I don't see where you listed your sens. Perhaps the 60hz has something to do with your not being able to differentiate sensors.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> you like to make people waste money on buying stupid mice, telling them "it has a better sensor. Best sensor out there, 10/10. Buy it naow cuz yes.".


What. That's the complete opposite of max, he usually goes on about how the vast majority sensors/implementations are disappointing compared to MLT04. He's pretty much the only person who talks about how the 3366 is overrated and how Zowie performance isn't that great and whatnot. The only mice I recall him actually praising the performance of are the FM, Aurora and KPM.


----------



## nittwit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> What. That's the complete opposite of max, he usually goes on about how the vast majority sensors/implementations are disappointing compared to MLT04. He's pretty much the only person who talks about how the 3366 is overrated and how Zowie performance isn't that great and whatnot. The only mice I recall him actually praising the performance of are the FM, Aurora and KPM.


Then i judged him wrongly, i'm sorry.

It's just stupid to buy a mouse just because of the sensor.


----------



## kr0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> Then i judged him wrongly, i'm sorry.
> 
> It's just stupid to buy a mouse just because of the sensor.


You're probably thinking of takasta lol... I've never seen him dislike a mouse he reviewed


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> Then i judged him wrongly, i'm sorry.
> 
> It's just stupid to buy a mouse just because of the sensor.


We can accept that in your case you have a bottleneck which is preventing your ability to differentiate sensors. But there is overwhelming evidence that mice and sensors perform very different from each other, and these differences are observed by many many people in games.

I would recommend you look for a used CRT perhaps, for testing purposes, that can get 100hz or greater.

You also stated you use high sensitivity but didn't specify how high.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> What. That's the complete opposite of max, he usually goes on about how the vast majority sensors/implementations are disappointing compared to MLT04. He's pretty much the only person who talks about how the 3366 is overrated and how Zowie performance isn't that great and whatnot. The only mice I recall him actually praising the performance of are the FM, Aurora and KPM.


DA 4g is top 3.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kr0w*
> 
> You're probably thinking of takasta lol... I've never seen him dislike a mouse he reviewed


Agreed.

The majority of reviews seem to be fluff reviews like Takasta's where they find no faults with the mouse.


----------



## nittwit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> We can accept that in your case you have a bottleneck which is preventing your ability to differentiate sensors. But there is overwhelming evidence that mice and sensors perform very different from each other, and these differences are observed by many many people in games.
> 
> I would recommend you look for a used CRT perhaps, for testing purposes, that can get 100hz or greater.
> 
> You also stated you use high sensitivity but didn't specify how high.
> DA 4g is top 3.
> Agreed.
> 
> The majority of reviews seem to be fluff reviews like Takasta's where they find no faults with the mouse.


Wut, a bottleneck? Wow, the sensors and now this.

I've used a 144hz monitor before in the house of a friend, and it's not that impressive. I still played as good as before, but not better. It doesn't have the ghosting or the ******ed stuttering and tearing that my monitor has, but you'll get used to those things, and u'll tryhard like every cs:go tard to offset and after a while you'll do it normally.


----------



## CorruptBE

You know, you could go 720p and increase the Hz beyond 60









Anyhow I think in most cases (unless a sensor is seriously horrid, like some office mice), the shape is one of the biggest bottlenecks. One of the reasons I still go back to my Zowie FK2 over and over, regardless of its flaws.


----------



## nittwit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> You know, you could go 720p and increase the Hz beyond 60
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow I think in most cases (unless a sensor is seriously horrid, like some office mice), the shape is one of the biggest bottlenecks. One of the reasons I still go back to my Zowie FK2 over and over, regardless of its flaws.


Are you saying that because of me? Yeah, i know, some years ago i overclocked my current monitor to 96Hz, so it was 1080p 96Hz. But i installed Gentoo and forgot completely about games and about all those OCD things.

I think i can oc it to 120Hz at 720p, but i'm too lazy to do it again, i don't have the same free time that i had when i was younger and i really don't care about all those stupid things anymore.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> ... but if you already have more than 120 fps in-game with max settings, why would you use low settings, brah?.


Because 8ms frames are not so great, 4ms or lower is much preferable.
It's a matter of getting the highest stable frame rate, some settings have more impact than others, maxing out everything and setting all to minimum are equally ignorant approaches.

Before you ask why more than 120 fps are useful: lower latency and lower pixel deviation between each frame shown on screen, specially with 1kHz mouse.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nittwit*
> 
> It's just stupid to buy a mouse just because of the sensor.


About as stupid as buying it only for the shape, it's a 50/50.
Difference being that one can get used to a shape, but cannot make the mouse track better with time.


----------



## resis

Still using Aurora. Of course still with AM cord and tightened wheel.


----------



## Pirx

it's an accurate mouse and doesn't skip. i don't have uneven clicks on mine. shell seems made of really cheap plastic, can't compare to a logitech or zowie that's built like a tank in comparison. but at least it's very light because of that. the shape is great, doesn't cramp my hand at all, unlike my fk2, probably because it has straight sides, as max said. wheel rattles a bit.

what makes it pretty much unusable for me, however, is the cord. it's so stiff it resists fine movements and pushed such a light mouse easily into another direction, even with a mouse bungee. need to replace that with a soft zowie or deathadder cord.


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coreda*
> 
> On the contrary, such threads should be kept open for discussion, especially for problems users have.


He hasn't showed up in months, all the while not having shipped hundreds of orders from eight months ago, those that he did ship ended up not being the advertised product at all (way cheaper materials and it has severe flaws) and in practice ninox doesn't offer refunds. That means bst took the community's money and left.

Now that there's no possibility of getting our money back, what should be done by overclock.net? Just let it pass?

BTW sorry for the late reply.


----------



## Bitemarks and bloodstains

Hey guys,

I just wanted to chime in based on the previous post.

Unfortunately there is nothing OCN can do.

All sales were conducted outside of OCN and BST never (after a quick look through his posts) directly advertised the mouse here.

The best thing I can suggest is get in touch with PayPal and explain what has happened, if enough people put in complaints, PayPal may do something even though the deadline has long passed.


----------



## Xanatos

You overestimate PayPal.


----------



## c0dy

Tried to get his attention over on fb and twitter and added another reply to my support-ticket on the ninox-page that never got any kind of response









Maybe he pays us another visit?









To round it up @bst


----------



## Melan

http://eud.dx.com/product/dare-u-jx2-black-800-2800dpi-6-button-blue-led-high-precision-usb-wired-gaming-mouse-844314931#.VYAmRfmqpQI

Stumbled upon this during net crawling.


----------



## a_ak57

...Is that surface alternating gloss and matte? Why would they do that. D:


----------



## aleexkrysel

TL;DR on what's wrong with this mouse? I'd really appreciate it!


----------



## Mych

Various quality issues. You might get a complete dud or a flawed or well-functioning mouse.

Edit: And yeah, it's good if you get one without probs.


----------



## aleexkrysel

What are these issues? And have they been fixed in the mice being sold now?


----------



## Mych

Various. The most common I _think_ are that (a) the software can brick the mouse (_restore default settings_ function iirc) or (b) buttons might be uneven and not work properly due to errors in the molding process. It's hard to say how common these problems actually are and if they have been fixed. It's probably safe to assume that these issue are at least somewhat more common with Aurora than most mice since so many people have reported them here. Also, many have reported problems getting refunds or replacements for their purchases. Again, hard to verify how many have had that problem and if the problems were ever resolved. For what it's worth, I received a mouse that functioned just fine. Going with one of the newer Zowie models might be a safer choice.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mych*
> 
> Various. The most common I _think_ are that (a) the software can brick the mouse (_restore default settings_ function iirc) or (b) buttons might be uneven and not work properly due to errors in the molding process. It's hard to say how common these problems actually are and if they have been fixed. It's probably safe to assume that these issue are at least somewhat more common with Aurora than most mice since so many people have reported them here. Also, many have reported problems getting refunds or replacements for their purchases. Again, hard to verify how many have had that problem and if the problems were ever resolved. For what it's worth, I received a mouse that functioned just fine. Going with one of the newer Zowie models might be a safer choice.


There is one additional flaw the Aurora - and I mean every unit - has and which cannot be fixed: There is a build in latency between mouse1 and mouse2 click. I think it has something to do with the MCU so it cannot be fixed via software.
This will ONLY affect you if you need to press mouse1 and mouse2 at the same time ingame. I.e. you jump with mouse2 ingame, play Quake and wan't to do a rocket jump.

If you jump with space, like me, you don't have to worry about it AT ALL.


----------



## FoxWolf1

The software can also just refuse to work properly-- mine won't save changes to the polling rate, for instance.

I got lucky in terms of how even the buttons are on mine, but they still feel a bit...sub-optimal in their performance, IMO. Could be the button lag issue that some have mentioned, a result of being unable to set my preferred 1000hz polling, or something else.

The coating over the top of the mouse is crap. Mine started wearing off after less than 1 hour of use. I didn't use my Aurora all that much in the end, because of the other issues with it, but there's now a big patch of bare plastic underneath where my pointer finger usually sits.

Shape is better or worse depending on your grip. I find it fairly poor for fingertip grip, because the buttons don't extend very far back on the shell; this means that you wind up with your center of control on the mouse being located significantly forward of the mouse's sensor, center of gravity, and center of friction. Ideally, your center of control would coincide with these. I stopped using my Aurora mainly for this reason.


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aleexkrysel*
> 
> TL;DR on what's wrong with this mouse? I'd really appreciate it!


If I were you I wouldn't even consider this mouse.

In addition to the severe manufacturing issues stated by others above, I have yet to receive info on Ninox/bst issuing a single refund for the shipments that he still hasn't sent, in nine months. Further, some months ago the company founder went completely MIA from here and his company has been inactive since then. That means the best case scenario is you receiving a flawed product without warranty, or realistically you not receiving anything at all.

edit: BTW this should serve as reply to the guy that sent me a PM on the matter. From my part I can tell you that bst vanished from the ESR and overall Quake communities, that after him posting about having issues with Paypal itself due to the amount of refund requests and of money owed, so by now this is pretty much a lost cause (unless he has a divine revelation or something; hopefully one where Cthulhu tells him to gave me my $90-100 back).


----------



## acid_reptile

.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FoxWolf1*
> 
> The coating over the top of the mouse is crap. Mine started wearing off after less than 1 hour of use.


Yet hardly anyone complained about it and they complained about everything. They all seem to have girl hands ;P

btw, a friend of mine even managed to wear off a logitech G3 coating after 3 years. I thought that's not even possible.


----------



## qsxcv

coating on my ninox aurora was perfect during the month i used it. my logitech g3's side coating started wearing after a year or so; i think the top surface is still like new though


----------



## CorruptBE

I actually had no complaints about mine, though I wouldn't advise people to buy it now, considering they probably won't receive their mouse.

There's also no continuation: "I like this mouse, thus I will rebuy it if it breaks"

Thus, consistency is out of the window as well.


----------



## nyshak

I hope my two units will last some time








But yeah, no-one can possibly suggest to someone to buy this mouse. Too much issues and no support whatsoever.


----------



## odellus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FoxWolf1*
> 
> The coating over the top of the mouse is crap. Mine started wearing off after less than 1 hour of use. I didn't use my Aurora all that much in the end, because of the other issues with it, but there's now a big patch of bare plastic underneath where my pointer finger usually sits.


wut. i have over 2,000 hours of use on mine and the coating is the exact same as when i got it. do you sweat acid?


----------



## FoxWolf1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *odellus*
> 
> do you sweat acid?


Hm. Well I do also tend to dissolve certain other things, like headphone pads and the fake leather on cheap chairs. So...maybe. lol

Could also just be that my good luck with the evenness of my Aurora's buttons was balanced out by some kind of defect in the coating on my particular unit. It's only worn away in one place, which would be consistent with the defect hypothesis.


----------



## plath

Weird reading people's issues with the mouse. I got a perfect one. No issues whatsoever. Really like mine, but chances of getting another similar mouse are nil now BST has given up.


----------



## CorruptBE

Yep

I have one of those well functioning ones as well xD


----------



## m1hka

Me three.


----------



## derrflyn

Where can I get mouse skates for the Ninox Aurora? Amazon used to have them. Since BST has gone AWOL for the billionth time, I doubt it's going to be stocked anywhere again.

Any suitable replacements?


----------



## nyshak

Me only 2









Seeing how well it performs and that I have not felt the urge to get another mouse since I got the Aurora tells me what a shame it is that bst wasn't able to handle the business side of things correctly. QC issues happen. If that was the only thing, and you could count on your RMA etc. I would still recommend the mouse.

The way it is, I can't.


----------



## povohat

I have 2 'functioning' Auroras but like all retail models they have the debounce issue. Apparently the beta samples were better in this regard. I still love the shape and would love to hear some good news from bst about the new 3310 version, if it's even still happening.


----------



## qsxcv

maybe a few months from now he'll come out and release aurora 2 with 3366, good build quality and open source firmware








one can dream...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Cheap mouse feet replacement: http://www.overclock.net/t/1482946/g502-pros-and-cons-for-logitech-to-fix-with-its-next-shell-for-this-sensor/50_50#post_22133383


----------



## nyshak

Does anyone know if there are some Corepads or whatever that actually fit the Aurora?
I'm sure I'll have to replace the feet on my units eventually.


----------



## kr0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Does anyone know if there are some Corepads or whatever that actually fit the Aurora?
> I'm sure I'll have to replace the feet on my units eventually.


I have the hyperglide ms-2 on mine. Not a 1:1 fit but since it's recommended to double stack feet on the auroras, it works fine for me. I have ms-2 in contact with the mouse pad, stacked on top of the stock skates


----------



## nyshak

Hm, OK might try them out when it comes to it. My Aurora works perfect without stacking feet so I am a bit worried but if it wont work I can just remove them both and use just one set. Should work.
I was also thinking about removing the borders around the feet on the bottom sheel. That way I could just get whatever feet I liked.


----------



## nyshak

Another question: I know there are some who have replaced the mouse cable with another one. Is there a better cable on any mouse out their that just fits? I mean like, without having to rewire it?


----------



## CorruptBE

Zowie cables should fit (used the Zowie AM cable).


----------



## nyshak

Hm. I have one. So I can just unplug this cable and put it in the Aurora?


----------



## qsxcv

idk if it's required for zowie's cables, but reorder the five individual wires to make it identical to the aurora's. don't mix up the ground and shield wires... they're both black but the ground wire is usually shinier and slightly thinner


----------



## Maximillion

As long as it thin enough to fit in the inlay and you make sure the wires are correctly ordered you should be fine. I used the cable from a G400s on mine. It's thin and lightweight, perfect for such a light mouse.


----------



## detto87

I'm a little bit surprised and disappointed by the Aurora. The shape isn't what I was hoping for. Even a RX250 from Logitech is a better shape imo. And shape was THE thing i bought it for. Other things like buttons and sensor were 'meh' from the beginning, but I could've lived with that if the shape was perfect. But it's just too small and only works in pure claw or fingertip grip. Nothing new compared to a G100S. So, I returned mine again.

2c


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> idk if it's required for zowie's cables, but reorder the five individual wires to make it identical to the aurora's. don't mix up the ground and shield wires... they're both black but the ground wire is usually shinier and slightly thinner


Well, I'm a total newb when it comes to electronics and funny colored wires. Which is why I had hoped I could find a mouse where I don't have to do that.


----------



## kr0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Well, I'm a total newb when it comes to electronics and funny colored wires. Which is why I had hoped I could find a mouse where I don't have to do that.


Microsoft mouse usb cables work fine with the aurora. I found a thin Microsoft cable on eBay and it works perfectly. Be wary using Logitech because their wire configuration is a little different.


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I'm a little bit surprised and disappointed by the Aurora. The shape isn't what I was hoping for. Even a RX250 from Logitech is a better shape imo. And shape was THE thing i bought it for. Other things like buttons and sensor were 'meh' from the beginning, but I could've lived with that if the shape was perfect. But it's just too small and only works in pure claw or fingertip grip. Nothing new compared to a G100S. So, I returned mine again.
> 
> 2c


I have 18cm hands and I really like the aurora shape. I also find the sensor implementation above average and quite good. The only negative I point out on my aurora is the mouse wheel not having a enough grip.

I have not experienced the rocket jump issue as I don't play Quake 3. I am unsure if it is a wide spread issue.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kr0w*
> 
> Microsoft mouse usb cables work fine with the aurora. I found a thin Microsoft cable on eBay and it works perfectly. Be wary using Logitech because their wire configuration is a little different.


Hey, do you mind sharing a link to such a cable?

I need some better cable since my awesome flexible diamondback 3g cable (i believe) died somehow and i am stuck with a very stiff razer db v1 cable. (still not sure which diamondback version had the more flexible cable)

Thanks in advance!

BTW, if anyone still has issues with *setting up the polling rate*. (Saw someone who couldnt set them some pages ago)

I can get it to work if i install the driver, choose the polling rate i want, close the driver (from the tray icon), unplug my mouse cable and put it back again.
Maybe reinstall the driver once, open it, and then configure the other settings, since it resets the memory. At this part i had mine already on 1000hz even though the driver showed me 500hz. But just in case changed to 1000hz too. Deinstalled the driver afterwards.
(May work for you or not.)


----------



## kr0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Hey, do you mind sharing a link to such a cable?
> 
> I need some better cable since my awesome flexible diamondback 3g cable (i believe) died somehow and i am stuck with a very stiff razer db v1 cable. (still not sure which diamondback version had the more flexible cable)
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> BTW, if anyone still has issues with *setting up the polling rate*. (Saw someone who couldnt set them some pages ago)
> 
> I can get it to work if i install the driver, choose the polling rate i want, close the driver (from the tray icon), unplug my mouse cable and put it back again.
> Maybe reinstall the driver once, open it, and then configure the other settings, since it resets the memory. At this part i had mine already on 1000hz even though the driver showed me 500hz. But just in case changed to 1000hz too. Deinstalled the driver afterwards.
> (May work for you or not.)


I used my WMO cable for some time before luckily stumbling upon a listing for a Microsoft USB cable. Unfortunately, I don't have a link to that listing refer to the pictures in your quest to find one. Good luck!


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kr0w*
> 
> I used my WMO cable for some time before luckily stumbling upon a listing for a Microsoft USB cable. Unfortunately, I don't have a link to that listing refer to the pictures in your quest to find one. Good luck!


Thanks for the pic, will see if i find something like this. For now i think i ll try to use the cable of my other WMO, too. Maybe its better than the actual one.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Thanks for the pic, will see if i find something like this. For now i think i ll try to use the cable of my other WMO, too. Maybe its better than the actual one.


Wait what?
WMO cable is one of the worst cables of all time.
It's soldered to the PCB anyway, so good for you that you won't get it off.


----------



## qsxcv

wasnt soldered on my wmo
yea it's a terrible cable though


----------



## ranseed

Was yours a X08? I have yet to seen a non soldered wmo cable


----------



## 7onoff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ranseed*
> 
> Was yours a X08? I have yet to seen a non soldiered wmo cable


I have a x08 and its soldered. The x80's might be unsoldered


----------



## qsxcv

yup x80


----------



## the1freeMan

had 2 x80s and they were soldered... one mouse got sold, the other I replaced it with a connector/cable form another mouse since the original cable broke in 1/2 months..


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> Wait what?
> WMO cable is one of the worst cables of all time.
> It's soldered to the PCB anyway, so good for you that you won't get it off.


I dont know, the cable of my one wmo (which is soldered in indeed) works for me. it really depends on how and where the bends are in the cable. i can basically put the zowie camade on top of the cable while leaving enough slack to swipe and it doesnt go wild and twist itself. (hard to explain)

Want to try exactly that with my other wmo cable which can be plugged out.^^

For now i did a "cable memory wipe" on the aurora stock cable and can use it with the "leaving slack put bungee on top of cable method" (lol), no problems anymore and way better than this stiff cable i had before.


----------



## nyshak

I found a way to put the annoying cable of the aurora so I don't feel it anymore. Sry, for the fun Paint-skillz, but it gets the job done


----------



## turnschuh

Oh, i have to try that one next time!


----------



## LzbeL

so, this mouse is recommended for FPS guys?


----------



## nyshak

Yes, but not for Quake if you jump with Mouse2.


----------



## LzbeL

is more recommended Razer DeathAdder 2013 4G?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Yes, but not for Quake if you jump with Mouse2.


is more recommended Razer DeathAdder 2013 4G?

I jump with mouse2 in csgo


----------



## turnschuh

If you are looking for a very lightweight ambidextrous mouse with a great shape and 2 side buttons on the left, then yes. totally.

BUT there are a few issues:

if you encounter malfunctions while swiping fast you need to add some height to your mousefeet to get a half of a mm more distance between the sensor and the pad.

(Increase the height by either double stacking the replacement feet on top of the existing ones or using other methods like adding layers of tape between the feet and the mouse)

then there are the driver issues a lot of people have where after configuring the mouse it then only reaches a very low malfunction speed afterwards which was according to many people not reversible.

i didnt have those issues though.

its up for you to decide. just make sure you buy it on amazon or something because there have been reports that people didnt receive the mouse or the money after ordering directly from ninox.org.


----------



## LzbeL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> If you are looking for a very lightweight ambidextrous mouse with a great shape and 2 side buttons on the left, then yes. totally.
> 
> BUT there are a few issues:
> 
> if you encounter malfunctions while swiping fast you need to add some height to your mousefeet to get a half of a mm more distance between the sensor and the pad.
> 
> (Increase the height by either double stacking the replacement feet on top of the existing ones or using other methods like adding layers of tape between the feet and the mouse)
> 
> then there are the driver issues a lot of people have where after configuring the mouse it then only reaches a very low malfunction speed afterwards which was according to many people not reversible.
> 
> i didnt have those issues though.
> 
> its up for you to decide. just make sure you buy it on amazon or something because there have been reports that people didnt receive the mouse or the money after ordering directly from ninox.org.


thanks you

_then there are the driver issues a lot of people have where after configuring the mouse it then only reaches a very low malfunction speed afterwards which was according to many people not reversible.
_

and not fixed released ?


----------



## turnschuh

unfortunately there were no updates regarding the driver.

but i am still wondering what function exactly in the driver triggered the mouse to become useless.

i switched the dpi, the led colors, its intensity and polling rate all the time. hit "apply" or "ok". nothing happened yet.

the only issue i had was when selecting manual rgb colors (not the presets). when using those, the cursor started to drift up diagonally when the mouse was held at a certain distance to the pad, lol.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> its up for you to decide. just make sure you buy it on amazon or something because there have been reports that people didnt receive the mouse or the money after ordering directly from ninox.org.


Can confirm. I'm still waiting for either my money or the mouse lol. bst told me, that my order got canceled on amazon somehow and if I wanted to have another one. I said I wanted a refund and still havn't seen anything yet. And after I told him via twitter and fb to take a look here, he was back online here and still no answer







So I guess my money is gone forever









EDIT: Ordered on 10/10/2014 btw


----------



## turnschuh




----------



## nyshak

I guess noone has tried the (supposedly broken) software on Win 10 yet right







?


----------



## Maximillion

I forgot the Aurora even had software tbh.


----------



## qsxcv

is there any consistent way of using the software to break the mouse?


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> is there any consistent way of using the software to break the mouse?


From what i read the savest way of breaking the mouse is to use the reset profile function.


----------



## ragemuffin

So is it safe to say that he swindled us?
There's not a lot of excuses for him to stop posting unless he actually died, got amnesia, or went into a coma.


----------



## acid_reptile

He disappeared right after getting some paypal informations from a lot of people. Maybe paypal closed his account again.

The only good thing left is to know the aurora released and it was a fail. (guess i would be checking the "new gaming mouse" thread on ESR forever)

There will never be a true mx300 successor unless you do it yourself.
(eg. frankenmouse it, with the original shape and a 800-1600 CPI sensor)


----------



## nyshak

Well, the business side of things was an epic fail (swindle, idk). But the mouse itself, while suffering from some severe QC issues, can be really really good - if you get lucky.

Too much if, I know.


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> idk if it's required for zowie's cables, but reorder the five individual wires to make it identical to the aurora's. don't mix up the ground and shield wires... they're both black but the ground wire is usually shinier and slightly thinner


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Well, the business side of things was an epic fail (swindle, idk). But the mouse itself, while suffering from some severe QC issues, can be really really good - if you get lucky.
> 
> Too much if, I know.


Even in the best case scenario the Aurora is not better than what Logitech currently offers, so there's no point in attempting to buy something from Ninox.

Plus, some defects of that mouse are present in every single one of them and can't be fixed, such as the clicking delay. In the end "getting lucky" with an Aurora is receiving a mouse that actually works, lol.


----------



## nyshak

The G100s has no side buttons and the 302, 303 have a really weird shape, though.

The reason why the Aurora has not been trashed and forgotten by everyone is that there are not really many mice with that shape anymore. Not true MMX300 shape, but still molded after it. Shape is important too and if you do get lucky with the Aurora it aint worse than what Logi offers - unless u jump with mouse2. Then u cant use it, but ive said that many times.


----------



## povohat

I would probably still be using the Aurora as my main mouse if I didn't jump with mouse2. Currently swapping between G100s and FK'13 (with ZA13 pcb inside). I would love a revised Aurora board without the serial debounce issue. A 3310 implementation at least on par with the Zowie ZA series would be even better.


----------



## Johan450

Any recomendations for a replacement cable? Not looking to slaughter a mouse for it.


----------



## qsxcv

look for deathadder cable on ebay. you'll have to rearrange pins though


----------



## Johan450

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> look for deathadder cable on ebay. you'll have to rearrange pins though


Alright thanks, I'll look into it.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> Even in the best case scenario the Aurora is not better than what Logitech currently offers, so there's no point in attempting to buy something from Ninox.


Except that logitech doesn't sell any light ambidextrous mice with side buttons.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> Except that logitech doesn't sell any light ambidextrous mice with side buttons.


They're selling glowing diamants though.


----------



## the1freeMan

50ms click latency lol please don't even compare


----------



## qsxcv

not exactly latency... and it's not noticeable unless you use m1+m2 simultaneously


----------



## kackbratze

Hi,

I have had this really disappointing mouse laying around for a few months now. Today I found an old Microsoft Intellimouse Optical 1.1.
Is there any way I can put the Aurora internals into the Microsoft Mouse shell?

Thanks


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kackbratze*
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have had this really disappointing mouse laying around for a few months now. Today I found an old Microsoft Intellimouse Optical 1.1.
> Is there any way I can put the Aurora internals into the Microsoft Mouse shell?
> 
> Thanks


Probably not but it fits inside the WMO.


----------



## wltr

can you fit the internals of the wmo into the aurora?


----------



## c0dy

Wait, will I finally be able to get my money back after 2 years of not receiving my mouse? Am I dreaming?









Anyway, sent you the PM's to your mail.


----------



## wareya

>1. Switch Debounce - Obviously I want to get that sorted smile.gif My question is, did anyone learn of the optimal method? Then I can just tell the factory to do that.

Immediately actuate, but block actuation state changes _on that button_ for X ms after changing the actuation state _on that button_. This means that clicking and declicking both have zero latency, unless done within X ms of eachother. In my modded mouse, I used 7ms because this was the fastest click-declick timing cycle I could do and record via audio.

This prevents bouncing for X ms when you click, but it does not prevent chatter (depending on how you define chatter).

Sometimes you want to do real dechattering before this, such as if the switch is defective or put under high tension and gives a fuzzy response while in an otherwise full on/off state, but this adds latency, so it's better to use switches and shell design that don't cause these problems.

qsxcv is a proponent of the method where the button always reports actuation if it was at any point actuated in the past X ms, but this increases declick latency, which IMO matters for CS:GO grenades and tap shooting, and things from other games like TFC-style sniper rifles. However, this method prevents chattering while in the clicked state.

>2. Syncing burst mode motion data to the polling rate.

What you do is, as soon as the PC sends a USB poll, you check/ask the sensor for motion data, and return whatever it has. Doing anything else increases polling rate instability or lets the sensor polling go out of sync with the usb polling. You can do switch debouncing in here pretty much everywhere, but the closer to responding to the PC, the better, just like with asking the sensor for motion data. Just note that people are *much* more tolerant to 1ms extra button latency than they are 1ms extra tracking latency.

>4. The DPI steps at the moment are:

Whatever you do, make sure you have an exact 2000dpi step somewhere. At 2100dpi and above, the 3360 enables stronger smoothing.

Side note: Can you mount the sensor upside down? :^) (don't do this, it might cause delays)

>Lastly, you don't lose anything by having side buttons on both sides.

You lose anyone with my pathological grip if you do that with buttons that aren't almost flat, or if you can't unbind them


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >Lastly, you don't lose anything by having side buttons on both sides.
> 
> You lose anyone with my pathological grip if you do that with buttons that aren't almost flat, or if you can't unbind them


Of course. The choice should be there whether of not you want them activated.

I believe in throwing lefties a bone. I'm lucky to have learned using my right hand but buying anything else for left can be difficult.


----------



## wareya

Same, it's just a tradeoff, as always.

It's probably possible to put them somewhere that they don't get in the way, but not with the shape/size footprint he described he's planning for (124x63x39mm circa 4.9 x 2.5 x 1.55 inches)

I approve of the IMO style of having one button on each side, though.


----------



## Bucake

side buttons on the right side is a no for me


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Software bricking was mostly an Aurora thing. Don't blame software when it was mostly a mouse problem. There is no downside to software unless you create a downside.
> 
> Secondly, you sort of burned your bridge by not giving refunds to those who never got their mice.
> 
> Lastly, you don't lose anything by having side buttons on both sides. You gain left handed customers. You should include it, much like the X5.
> 
> The shape sounds nice. Try to have "separated" mouse buttons or otherwise lightweight clicks. Bonus for shell material choice like what Nixeus have done with their mice (gloss order rubber). And the mouse should be friendly to firmware change.


I agree that software is fine if it works properly, and if I had full control of the software then I wouldn't have an issue with it, but I don't trust leaving it to factories any more. Its very difficult to test, it was tested on 25 different PCs by myself, and it worked as it should, then when its released there are a number of people for whom it doesn't work. I don't really want to deal with that uncertainty again.

I agree with your 2nd point, but in the end I either try again or not. I will find out if my bridges are truly burnt. If they are then fair enough. But I still want to try.

Last 2 points:

The problem with being a small startup is things like that are out of reach. I have to choose a shell, I can't make one from scratch, or change big things on a shell.

So the shell I'm using has side buttons only on the left, and non-separate buttons. Its all a compromise.

But all this mouse has to do is sell well enough and the company only has to perform well enough, and things get easier. If people are happy with the new mouse, and everything goes smoothly (ie. I redeem myself), maybe they'd be open to a kickstarter for something made from scratch, or I could possibly get more investment myself.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Shoe selling business isn't going too well?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Shoe selling business isn't going too well?


Its not my business, they are investors. I work for them as a technician/graphics designer/website designer. I don't work for them full time, so this is just a way of making myself useful. Besides I prefer mice to shoes, its more interesting


----------



## Maximillion

People who were never refunded get this new mouse for free, right?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >1. Switch Debounce - Obviously I want to get that sorted smile.gif My question is, did anyone learn of the optimal method? Then I can just tell the factory to do that.
> 
> Immediately actuate, but block actuation state changes _on that button_ for X ms after changing the actuation state _on that button_. This means that clicking and declicking both have zero latency, unless done within X ms of eachother. In my modded mouse, I used 7ms because this was the fastest click-declick timing cycle I could do and record via audio.
> 
> This prevents bouncing for X ms when you click, but it does not prevent chatter (depending on how you define chatter).
> 
> Sometimes you want to do real dechattering before this, such as if the switch is defective or put under high tension and gives a fuzzy response while in an otherwise full on/off state, but this adds latency, so it's better to use switches and shell design that don't cause these problems.
> 
> qsxcv is a proponent of the method where the button always reports actuation if it was at any point actuated in the past X ms, but this increases declick latency, which IMO matters for CS:GO grenades and tap shooting, and things from other games like TFC-style sniper rifles. However, this method prevents chattering while in the clicked state.
> 
> >2. Syncing burst mode motion data to the polling rate.
> 
> What you do is, as soon as the PC sends a USB poll, you check/ask the sensor for motion data, and return whatever it has. Doing anything else increases polling rate instability or lets the sensor polling go out of sync with the usb polling. You can do switch debouncing in here pretty much everywhere, but the closer to responding to the PC, the better, just like with asking the sensor for motion data. Just note that people are *much* more tolerant to 1ms extra button latency than they are 1ms extra tracking latency.
> 
> >4. The DPI steps at the moment are:
> 
> Whatever you do, make sure you have an exact 2000dpi step somewhere. At 2100dpi and above, the 3360 enables stronger smoothing.
> 
> Side note: Can you mount the sensor upside down? :^) (don't do this, it might cause delays)
> 
> >Lastly, you don't lose anything by having side buttons on both sides.
> 
> You lose anyone with my pathological grip if you do that with buttons that aren't almost flat, or if you can't unbind them


Thanks for the clarifications.

Do you have any issues with your debouncing method, such as when holding down a button firing a gun? I would have thought you'd get random de-/re-actuations (or "chatter") after 7ms?

I'm not sure how qsxcv's method works, could you explain it in more detail please?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> People who were never refunded get this new mouse for free, right?


If they would prefer that, then yes.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> If they would prefer that, then yes.


Prefer?

As a businessman, you do realize part of the sales pitch is not losing face in front of your customers.

Pretty sure that would be the least you could do if you were to regain their trust.


----------



## wareya

> Do you have any issues with your debouncing method, such as when holding down a button firing a gun? I would have thought you'd get random de-/re-actuations (or "chatter") after 7ms?

As long as the switch is not noisy at rest, no. When a switch is noisy at rest, you need real dechatter. But switches being noisy at rest shouldn't be a problem unless you use F-grade switches and shell.

> I'm not sure how qsxcv's method works, could you explain it in more detail please?

It the mouse ever sees the button actuate, then the mouse will respond immediately, but the mouse needs to have X ms of being released in order for the mouse to release that button.

This eliminates the possibility of having noise cause deactuations while the button is pressed down, but it increases declick latency by X ms, specifically because it's filtering out glitch deactuations but not glitch actuations.

If you wire the switch so that the middle state is the same as the clicked state (the switches used by mice for m1/m2 have three physical connection states, one is between fully on and off), random deactuations while the button is pressed down shouldn't be a problem even if the switch wears out.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Prefer?
> 
> As a businessman, you do realize part of the sales pitch is not losing face in front of your customers.
> 
> Pretty sure that would be the least you could do.


He means individuals. He asked people to email him if they had unresolved business with the aurora.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> If they would prefer that, then yes.












I still have my order and refund numbers so I'll wait and see how this pans out.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Prefer?
> 
> As a businessman, you do realize part of the sales pitch is not losing face in front of your customers.
> 
> Pretty sure that would be the least you could do if you were to regain their trust.


Sorry, I read it as "instead of a refund", thats why I said if they prefer.

TBH if they would like a mouse for free as way of apology/compensation, thats fine too









So they could either have a refund and a free 3360 mouse, or they can have two 3360 mice (assuming they ordered one Aurora, if they ordered two, then they'd get 3 3360 mice).


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> they are investors.


Well good, you won't need to ask people for money then.

Whatever the case, good to see another generic mail order "gaming mouse" from China. Though I would rethink that no software choice. Especially since the Nixeus Revel will soon have beta software.

Also good idea on the flashable firmware idea. Especially since then you can fix issues like the 50ms debounce issue that was somehow added to the "Aurora" mouse but not other gaming mice that have come from that factory under different brandings.


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Bst, I don't believe I single word you say.

After all these years you still owe me money ($100) and owe to hundreds of others. In my case you didn't even ship the mice, and for others you sent something totally different than what they had bought.

I'll try for the last time to send you yet another e-mail, yet another time using your website. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've come here once again asking people for more money, saying you are going to finally pay people back, and you have never, ever done so, to a single person.

I will not mention any nicknames on the email. We'll see how that goes. But if this time around you don't pay up, it's obvious you are just a scammer and no one here should support your new endeavour.


----------



## wareya

He's not asking people for money, he's asking people to design the mouse he already has funding for


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> > Do you have any issues with your debouncing method, such as when holding down a button firing a gun? I would have thought you'd get random de-/re-actuations (or "chatter") after 7ms?
> 
> As long as the switch is not noisy at rest, no. When a switch is noisy at rest, you need real dechatter. But switches being noisy at rest shouldn't be a problem unless you use F-grade switches and shell.
> 
> > I'm not sure how qsxcv's method works, could you explain it in more detail please?
> 
> It the mouse ever sees the button actuate, then the mouse will respond immediately, but the mouse needs to have X ms of being released in order for the mouse to release that button.
> 
> This eliminates the possibility of having noise cause deactuations while the button is pressed down, but it increases declick latency by X ms, specifically because it's filtering out glitch deactuations but not glitch actuations.
> 
> If you wire the switch so that the middle state is the same as the clicked state (the switches used by mice for m1/m2 have three physical connection states, one is between fully on and off), random deactuations while the button is pressed down shouldn't be a problem even if the switch wears out.


Thanks.

That makes sense about the middle state of the switch. I'll try it with the sample.

I wonder if the two methods could be combined?

So its like this:

Actuate -> Block 5ms -> Check for release lasting longer than 5ms

So there would be 10ms declick delay, but that would equate to a real-world perceivable latency of about 3ms on a tap (going by your 7ms fastest recorded clicks). Maybe thats a good middle ground - the switches are 20M D2FCs so they should be OK, but I'm not sure what aspects of the shell would affect the switches, I guess you mean they press the switch down too far, causing damage over its lifespan? Its not something I can ever be 100% sure of with an OEM mouse, so I may need to be cautious with it.


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> He's not asking people for money, he's asking people to design the mouse he already has funding for


That's the exact same thing he did on esreality.com; where this project started. First it was only ideas coming from fellow Quake players, then it was money, then he didn't ship tons of orders and he suddenly left the Quake community and the site for good, to this day. No refunds, to a single person.

We've been through this.
http://esreality.com/?a=post&id=2173191
http://www.esreality.com/post/2487925/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-2/
http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/
http://www.esreality.com/post/2701302/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-4/

And this is not the first time he's come back to this very thread on OCN either, doing the exact same thing. First he asks for ideas, then he adds he intends to refund people, yet not a single person reports getting their money back. Once people report that is that bst once again leaves for a few months then tries again. Too bad him posting here attracts few people to buy his mouse, then he either doesn't send them or sends some crappy Chinese mouse.

At this point this is all talk. Bst owes me money and to many others, worth easily several thousands of dollars because of the amount of people that didn't receive a thing. Without getting our money back, after over two years, then his intentions here today are obvious, and are the same he had from the start.

And you know, if he actually intended to refund people back he'd straight up send the money back to those who he didn't ship the orders to. Instead, he now asks for people to contact him, knowing that after two years only a small portion of people are going to still care.


----------



## wareya

Ok, then you can complain once he gets to the money stage again
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I wonder if the two methods could be combined?


Yes, but if you ask for that, you're probably going to get something horrible








General OEMs are nearly incompetent when it comes to firmware, keep things simple for them.

> the switches are 20M D2FCs so they should be OK, but I'm not sure what aspects of the shell would affect the switches, I guess you mean they press the switch down too far, causing damage over its lifespan? Its not something I can ever be 100% sure of with an OEM mouse, so I may need to be cautious with it.

I'm referring to the shell applying pressure to the switch even when you're applying no pressure to the shell's buttons. In other words, pre-tensioned button, absolute zero pre-travel. Some companies do that because it makes the buttons even lighter, but it doesn't actually mean faster clicks, and in conjunction with zero-latency-actuation debouncing algorithms, it causes problems like "Putting down the mouse slightly too hard makes the buttons actuate" like you have with the finalmouse scream one.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Well good, you won't need to ask people for money then.
> 
> Whatever the case, good to see another generic mail order "gaming mouse" from China. Though I would rethink that no software choice. Especially since the Nixeus Revel will soon have beta software.
> 
> Also good idea on the flashable firmware idea. Especially since then you can fix issues like the 50ms debounce issue that was somehow added to the "Aurora" mouse but not other gaming mice that have come from that factory under different brandings.


I could add software, but its something I would want more time to test. So I could go the same route as the Revel and add it later.

I don't know why the factory added that debounce, anyone who had a beta version of the mouse can confirm it wasn't there initially.

The only way to get started as a smaller company is to use factories OEM/ODM facilities. But unlike other companies I want to move away from that as soon as I can, mice like these are stepping stones, they're not representative of the future. Thats just the way it is, like I say I can either do it or give up, but I choose to do it. It might be "wrong" in all sorts of ways people can think of, but never the less I am doing it.

No one from here has to buy it anyway, I'm just asking for what people would like. No one even has to reply to me, I'd have to go and ask somewhere else. But this is the best place to ask so thats why I'm here. I'm not subtly trying to promote the mouse, I was just reading about mice on here and realised I needed to ask for some clarification, which wareya is kindly giving to me. The other thing I wanted to do was resolve past disputes with the Aurora, not that I expect it gains me anything, it just had to be done.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> Bst, I don't believe I single word you say.
> 
> After all these years you still owe me money ($100) and owe to hundreds of others. In my case you didn't even ship the mice, and for others you sent something totally different than what they had bought.
> 
> I'll try for the last time to send you yet another e-mail, yet another time using your website. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've come here once again asking people for more money, saying you are going to finally pay people back, and you have never, ever done so, to a single person.
> 
> I will not mention any nicknames on the email. We'll see how that goes. But if this time around you don't pay up, it's obvious you are just a scammer and no one here should support your new endeavour.


Email aurora [at] ninox [dot] org , rather than going through the website.
You will get your refund I promise. But you don't have to believe me, just send the email and see what happens








Make sure you let me know your paypal address or your bank transfer details in the same email.
If you ever decide you want one of the 3360 mice, I'll include my personal email in my response to you, so you can just ask for one of the 3360 mice and I'll send it to you.

I don't know where you get the idea that hundreds of people are owed money, not that its ok because its a small amount, but I have been checking and its about 5 people, it can't be hundreds because there weren't that many pre-orders (I guess people think there were thousands of pre-orders, there wasn't!).


----------



## avensvvvvvv

If you say so...

I'll come back here in a couple of days and let you all know if he has refunded me my money, or to other people on esreality. It's a yes or no answer.

BTW my pre-order is over the #30th (can't say the exact number here for obvious reason), and I bought the mouse the very first day. That isn't 5 people you know, and it's not normal to pay your debts after over two whole years.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Ok, then you can complain once he gets to the money stage again
> Yes, but if you ask for that, you're probably going to get something horrible
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> General OEMs are nearly incompetent when it comes to firmware, keep things simple for them.
> 
> > the switches are 20M D2FCs so they should be OK, but I'm not sure what aspects of the shell would affect the switches, I guess you mean they press the switch down too far, causing damage over its lifespan? Its not something I can ever be 100% sure of with an OEM mouse, so I may need to be cautious with it.
> 
> I'm referring to the shell applying pressure to the switch even when you're applying no pressure to the shell's buttons. In other words, pre-tensioned button, absolute zero pre-travel. Some companies do that because it makes the buttons even lighter, but it doesn't actually mean faster clicks, and in conjunction with zero-latency-actuation debouncing algorithms, it causes problems like "Putting down the mouse slightly too hard makes the buttons actuate" like you have with the finalmouse scream one.


Hmm yes you're right. I'll give your method a go, sounds like it should be fine, its worth testing anyway.

I see what you mean about the shell. On the sample I have there is no pre-tensioning, I can move the button down a small amount before it hits the switch, so, seems like it should work ok.

Thanks again.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> If you say so...
> 
> I'll come back here in a couple of days and let you all know if he has refunded me my money, or to other people on esreality. It's a yes or no answer.
> 
> BTW my pre-order is over the #30th (can't say the exact number here for obvious reason), and I bought the mouse the very first day. That isn't 5 people, you know.


Yes but most people got their mice, it was only those that were lost in shipping that didn't.

I had issues with paypal because I wasn't giving them tracking numbers, and people had began to complain (open disputes) because of the pre-order delay, so they wouldn't allow me access to any funds, even to refund people.. I'm not saying thats a 100% watertight excuse but thats what happened and contributed to confusing things.

I don't know why you think no one received their pre-orders, like I say 99% did, and then as soon as I had stock I put the mice on amazon because of the issues I was having with my pick and pack warehouse. It was easier to just let Amazon handle automatically. I mean come on if I was really so money grabbing, theres no way I'd use Amazon, they'll let people return things for ANY reason, and they don't care if the box is all damaged, they just send it back to me (or in the US, destroy them). But I think its worth it because people can buy the mice in confidence.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Sorry, I read it as "instead of a refund", thats why I said if they prefer.
> 
> TBH if they would like a mouse for free as way of apology/compensation, thats fine too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So they could either have a refund and a free 3360 mouse, or they can have two 3360 mice (assuming they ordered one Aurora, if they ordered two, then they'd get 3 3360 mice).


I mean, that would be cool/fair aswell for us who essentially thought for 2 years we were "scammed" and would never ever hear from you again, which - well. we didn't until now.


----------



## m0uz

Mr. British Summer Time has returned!


----------



## qsxcv

dear lord...


----------



## wareya

I know right


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I mean come on if I was really so money grabbing


To pull full disappearing acts for months at a time while people wait and complain with zero response or appearance from you on their refund status, yeah it kind of paints that picture buddy.

The skepticism or hostility that may eventually come shouldn't be a surprise. Even though you're on the other end you should still see why it's happening. Your acceptance is either a good thing of owning up to that catastrophe or a sign of not caring and wanting more investment. Considering that people still don't have their items well after they were supposed to they - rightfully so - follow to conclusion #2.

I'll add with salt and sarcasm that FinalMouse has cornered the mouse scamming business on this forum so I'd suggest you fly right this time.


----------



## povohat

Glad to see you back after such a difficult time with the Aurora. I'm keen to see what the new shape has to offer.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> To pull full disappearing acts for months at a time while people wait and complain with zero response or appearance from you on their refund status, yeah it kind of paints that picture buddy.
> 
> The skepticism or hostility that may eventually come shouldn't be a surprise. Even though you're on the other end you should still see why it's happening. Your acceptance is either a good thing of owning up to that catastrophe or a sign of not caring and wanting more investment. Considering that people still don't have their items well after they were supposed to they - rightfully so - follow to conclusion #2.
> 
> I'll add with salt and sarcasm that FinalMouse has cornered the mouse scamming business on this forum so I'd suggest you fly right this time.


I'm not surprised, and I'm not saying what happened is excusable, but its more down to having had enough, and being selfish in that way, and forgetful, than it was intentional scamming or anything like that.

I just prefer if people are angry with me, to be angry for the right reasons.
I didn't refund some people.
I was selfish and let my emotions get in the way of customer service

But it wasn't some elaborate scam, and since IMO thats a much worse accusation, since it means I would have set out to scam everyone, in a premeditated way, rather than be neglectful over about 5 or so refunds, so of course I will try and set the record straight. But I'm not saying anything more than that, like "forgive me" or "how dare you be angry", thats down to everyone's individual decision.

Also I'm trying to show that the situation that caused all of that in the first place, are things that can't really happen again.

But theres not much more to say about it, in a few days these posts will be buried and someone else will come out saying I'm a scammer, so I've told the truth and tried to make some amends, but I'm not going to keep on with it. The only real way to undo it, is to try again and improve.

All I hope is that it goes a lot smoother this time, and that people notice that its better. I don't want to "sweet talk" people into this, really I just want to quietly work away at it, and when its ready it'll be on Amazon. It won't be as exciting as last time, or hyped up, but it should be more solid and professional, thats all I hope to acheive.

The way I see it is like this:
- Some brave people buy it from Amazon, after maybe seeing a few reviews and thinking maybe its worth a try.
- Turns out its not a bad mouse. Maybe its not the absolute best thing ever, maybe it is for some, but theres nothing actually wrong with it and its perfectly useable in most fast paced games. As in, "If you like the shape its a great choice".
- Few more people decide to take the plunge, a couple of months pass and nothing bad happens to anyone, and the reputation begins to improve.
- Word spreads and more mice sell, allowing me to move forwards with more interesting products.


----------



## badben25

I think at this point in time that would be the right thing to do. Just quietly work on it, and help all the peeps who still are owed something or the other. Post occasionally if you have questions and such. Come out of the cave only when the mouse is done and up to a good standard. After that things will fall into place but until then you better work hard.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Glad to see you back after such a difficult time with the Aurora. I'm keen to see what the new shape has to offer.


Thanks.

There wasn't much to choose from with the shape, looking at OEM mice that can accept the 3360 is like a tidal wave of mice with 20 buttons, sharp angles, and made to look like optimus prime. So I went with what looked the most simple and comfortable. Actually the closest mouse I can think of it resembling is the ZA13 but a small amount longer, and the front is a bit higher up, with a slight \__/ shape at the front sides. The side buttons are placed quite similarly to the Aurora, but about 1-2mm higher so it clears my thumb now but still quite easy to click when I need it.


----------



## end0rphine

Would it be like a slightly larger MX300???

EDIT: NVM saw your latest post. Interesting shape.


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> There wasn't much to choose from with the shape, looking at OEM mice that can accept the 3360 is like a tidal wave of mice with 20 buttons, sharp angles, and made to look like optimus prime. So I went with what looked the most simple and comfortable. Actually the closest mouse I can think of it resembling is the ZA13 but a small amount longer, and the front is a bit higher up, with a slight \__/ shape at the front sides. The side buttons are placed quite similarly to the Aurora, but about 1-2mm higher so it clears my thumb now but still quite easy to click when I need it.


Rapoo v16? If that's it, that would be an interesting shape.


----------



## qsxcv

2016...

didn't read recent posts carefully, but
for debounce, imo it's best to: register all presses immediately. use normal debouncing for release (i.e. release only after X ms of being in the released state). this adds release latency, but if it's kept to 8ms or so it's probably negligible.

as wareya wrote somewhere, this prevents chattering when the button is in the pressed state (which does happen for worn switches), whereas the method that simply ignores changes for X ms after a press/release doesn't. but the two can be combined; though it's not clear how much more robust that would be in practice. i think that if a switch isn't behaving correctly with solely 8ms debounce on release, it's probably so worn that any method of debouncing would be ineffective.

also: i think one of the most important things for switch durability is making sure that the time spent in the soldering process is minimized.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The only way to get started as a smaller company is to use factories OEM/ODM facilities.


well i know someone who's not going that route








. but it's for something more niche

anyway bst, questions:
0. 1piece or 2piece button design?
1. is the pcb designed already?
2. what mcu? (note: i don't believe that the choice of mcu in itself affects anything. see http://www.overclock.net/t/1602282/lets-compile-all-3360-3366-and-their-release-dates-for-everyone/600_100#post_25537822 for my thoughts on this.)
3. is the factory making the firmware again?
please figure out a way that allows us to modify the firmware (not just flash, but either release the source code or provide a barebones thing with which the community can use to flash the mcu)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> In other words, pre-tensioned button, absolute zero pre-travel. Some companies do that because it makes the buttons even lighter, but it doesn't actually mean faster clicks, and in conjunction with zero-latency-actuation debouncing algorithms, it causes problems like "Putting down the mouse slightly too hard makes the buttons actuate" like you have with the finalmouse scream one.


doesn't cause problems if
1. the button piece is light
2. there's some way to prevent excessive rattle like what the wmo does


----------



## plath

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Hi guys,


Hi bst! It's cool that you are back. I really enjoy my Aurora. Glad to hear a new mouse might be in the works.

Hope the mouse will keep a similar profile to the Aurora as it was a great mouse for smaller hands & claw grippers, and that it has a new cord like CeeSA's paracord. Those would be things I'd like to see in the future.


----------



## popups

The original FK had a thick middle area that caused the buttons to be stiffer than the switch; I thinned that area out to reduce the resistance. Recently I decided to mess with my FK more because when I put lighter switches in that modified shell the buttons were not acceptable. I heated the button piece with hot air and applied pressure as it was cooling. It took a few attempts to tune the shell to have an acceptable button piece with those light switches. It might have been better to simply have done that than reducing the thickness.

For a single button piece, I think the area that should bend should be very thin and the area right after it should be thick enough to stop the button from bending after clicking. The consistency of the button piece would be highly dependent on how they treat the piece after injecting. I think the arch of the mouse would limit how good the buttons could ultimately be for a single piece design. It would be so much easier to go with a separate piece.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> Bst, I don't believe I single word you say.
> 
> After all these years you still owe me money ($100) and owe to hundreds of others. In my case you didn't even ship the mice, and for others you sent something totally different than what they had bought


I mean it's pretty obvious that it was not a scam as some other people called it out. About a handful of people didn't get their mice/refund until now.
Took about an hour and paypal sent me an email that I got money from XY. So that'd be one case handled.

Also with an offer to get a free mouse when it's released, as it was said here. Will see if I make use of it then









So far it's been handled pretty good and smooth.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> Also with an offer to get a free mouse when it's released, as it was said here. Will see if I make use of it then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far it's been handled pretty good and smooth.


Don't forget the poor bastard got into this to produce a cheap gaming mouse for a community hell bent on kicking him to death instead.

I wouldn't waste a second doing anything for you lot here despite the crying for someone to actually design and make a gaming mouse for them. This poor guy tried and he failed but in his effort you clowns decided to kick him to the ground.

He basically had to work to earn up money to do the pay backs via Paypal and he's still doing it. I think he regrets ever going into this because dealing with lot here is best left to the million dollar corporate's who know how to treat ingrates and morons wanting something for little money, then complaining why it didn't perform like a $100+ product







.


----------



## justnvc

I actually think the aurora was very close to being my perfect mouse, I hope everything goes your way this time bst.


----------



## Gigantoad

Still using my Aurora to this day, if it's any consolation. Though modded with a different cable and ripped out LED as far as I remember. Surprised you wanna go down that rabbit hole again though. In any case, selling the mouse when it's done and in stock is the way to go. Forget about preorders or anything involving money upfront. Don't even think about doing a Kickstarter, ever.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> didn't read recent posts carefully, but
> for debounce, imo it's best to: register all presses immediately. use normal debouncing for release (i.e. release only after X ms of being in the released state). this adds release latency, but if it's kept to 8ms or so it's probably negligible
> 
> as wareya wrote somewhere, this prevents chattering when the button is in the pressed state (which does happen for worn switches), whereas the method that simply ignores changes for X ms after a press/release doesn't. but the two can be combined; though it's not clear how much more robust that would be in practice. i think that if a switch isn't behaving correctly with solely 8ms debounce on release, it's probably so worn that any method of debouncing would be ineffective.
> 
> also: i think one of the most important things for switch durability is making sure that the time spent in the soldering process is minimized.


Thanks, this is what I ended up requesting, it was easier to explain.
Also I see how wareya's method is probably fine, but I know for sure your method is the safest and I prefer that, even if it has a minor drawback of release latency.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well i know someone who's not going that route
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . but it's for something more niche


TBH Its not too bad if you just want a PCB and your own firmware (if thats what you mean), I could probably make a very simple mouse that way and choose what I like on the registers and some other basic things, but I was talking more about funding for a new shell mold, which can easily cost 10,000+ USD








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> anyway bst, questions:
> 0. 1piece or 2piece button design?
> 1. is the pcb designed already?
> 2. what mcu? (note: i don't believe that the choice of mcu in itself affects anything. see http://www.overclock.net/t/1602282/lets-compile-all-3360-3366-and-their-release-dates-for-everyone/600_100#post_25537822 for my thoughts on this.)
> 3. is the factory making the firmware again?
> please figure out a way that allows us to modify the firmware (not just flash, but either release the source code or provide a barebones thing with which the community can use to flash the mcu)
> doesn't cause problems if
> 1. the button piece is light
> 2. there's some way to prevent excessive rattle like what the wmo does


0 - 1 piece (no choice)
1 - Yes, it needs to be adapted to the new shell, but they already have the PCB design for another mouse
2 - Not 100% sure yet, but most likely the Holtek 8-bit USB flash MCU, its generally whats used in these factories.
3 - Well the factory outsources their firmware creation, they've had my white paper and yesterday confirmed they can do everything I asked... its just a case of waiting for them to finish it now and then testing it.
4 - Thats not going to happen for this mouse, I never get to see the firmware when a factory handles it, and they won't share it (I know, it sucks). But with the Holtek MCU its a real pain to program compared with something like an Arm MCU anyway. Given that its quite rare for someone to want to edit the firmware on a mouse or create their own, I would never implement it as a feature. But I could possibly allow it by special request, in future mice that are programmed in-house.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The original FK had a thick middle area that caused the buttons to be stiffer than the switch; I thinned that area out to reduce the resistance. Recently I decided to mess with my FK more because when I put lighter switches in that modified shell the buttons were not acceptable. I heated the button piece with hot air and applied pressure as it was cooling. It took a few attempts to tune the shell to have an acceptable button piece with those light switches. It might have been better to simply have done that than reducing the thickness.
> 
> For a single button piece, I think the area that should bend should be very thin and the area right after it should be thick enough to stop the button from bending after clicking. The consistency of the button piece would be highly dependent on how they treat the piece after injecting. I think the arch of the mouse would limit how good the buttons could ultimately be for a single piece design. It would be so much easier to go with a separate piece.


Yeah, separate piece is better, also with a spring underneath to push it against the top shell so its not resting on the switch. If I could do it I would









The button feel pretty good to me on the sample I have, I actually bought it from amazon because I didn't want a "selected" mouse sample. It has Huanos but doesn't feel bad (for Huanos), obviously will be using Omron 20M's in the actual product though.

The thing is even if I notice something isn't perfect on the mouse, I can't really change anything, except maybe really small details, like if there is some kind of tolerance issue with the size of some parts, they can shave a bit off or improve how it works in some way. But at the moment for the most part I'm stuck with how they designed it. But like I say, fortunately it feels pretty good, nice and solid and not mushy Oo


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> a spring underneath to push it against the top shell so its not resting on the switch


Other way around, mate. It pushes the button onto the switch


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Other way around, mate. It pushes the button onto the switch


I know thats how its usually done, but I think it might be better the other way round, so theres no pressure on the switch (so theres no "lack of debounce" issues, and maybe improved switch life). As long as it can only be pushed up by a tiny amount it should still feel good. But can't be sure about it unless its tested to see how it feels.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> Rapoo v16? If that's it, that would be an interesting shape.


Nope, all I'll say is its a pretty common mouse, if I showed it to you, you'd probably recognise it. But I won't reveal it until I get the first sample.
The mouse its based on has a lot of reviews on Amazon and I didn't see any issues with the shell, mostly people put the shell as the best thing about it, saying it feels high quality etc.
Heres the ratings distribution for the mouse on amazon:





It has over 100 reviews so not bad, bearing in mind they're reviewing the sensor and software too (which in that mouse was much lower spec than the 3360).


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

lol so incoming E-Signal firmware then?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plath*
> 
> Hi bst! It's cool that you are back. I really enjoy my Aurora. Glad to hear a new mouse might be in the works.
> 
> Hope the mouse will keep a similar profile to the Aurora as it was a great mouse for smaller hands & claw grippers, and that it has a new cord like CeeSA's paracord. Those would be things I'd like to see in the future.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> I mean it's pretty obvious that it was not a scam as some other people called it out. About a handful of people didn't get their mice/refund until now.
> Took about an hour and paypal sent me an email that I got money from XY. So that'd be one case handled.
> 
> Also with an offer to get a free mouse when it's released, as it was said here. Will see if I make use of it then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far it's been handled pretty good and smooth.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Don't forget the poor bastard got into this to produce a cheap gaming mouse for a community hell bent on kicking him to death instead.
> 
> I wouldn't waste a second doing anything for you lot here despite the crying for someone to actually design and make a gaming mouse for them. This poor guy tried and he failed but in his effort you clowns decided to kick him to the ground.
> 
> He basically had to work to earn up money to do the pay backs via Paypal and he's still doing it. I think he regrets ever going into this because dealing with lot here is best left to the million dollar corporate's who know how to treat ingrates and morons wanting something for little money, then complaining why it didn't perform like a $100+ product
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justnvc*
> 
> I actually think the aurora was very close to being my perfect mouse, I hope everything goes your way this time bst.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Still using my Aurora to this day, if it's any consolation. Though modded with a different cable and ripped out LED as far as I remember. Surprised you wanna go down that rabbit hole again though. In any case, selling the mouse when it's done and in stock is the way to go. Forget about preorders or anything involving money upfront. Don't even think about doing a Kickstarter, ever.


Thanks, very nice to hear


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> lol so incoming E-Signal firmware then?


It could be, I don't actually know for sure.

Afaik the Aurora had E-Signal Firmware, and aside from the debounce issue it wasn't actually bad, it was a good implementation of the 3090.

I think the important thing is just to anticipate things... I never discussed debounce with them on the Aurora, then they added it at the last minute in what was probably a rush.

This time I've covered most things that could potentially be an issue, and know pretty much everything that can go wrong and how to test for it. So its not such a huge deal IMO.

What will probably be the result is something like other OEM 3360 mice, but with the other things I asked for. They dont just churn out the same programs to everyone, but they probably do use similar programs as a base to work from. But if people poke around the mouse, they might see some other mouse name, and conclude "it must be exactly the same", but thats not necessarily true.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Afaik the Aurora had E-Signal Firmware


Well that factory likes to outsource to them that's why. They even use them for stuff directly under the company brand.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Thats not going to happen for this mouse, I never get to see the firmware when a factory handles it, and they won't share it (I know, it sucks). But with the Holtek MCU its a real pain to program compared with something like an Arm MCU anyway.


well anyway if it's flashable and there's a datasheet in reasonable english and some example programs, it's not impossible to start from scratch. although for holtek i suspect the latter two may be nonexistent
Quote:


> Given that its quite rare for someone to want to edit the firmware on a mouse or create their own, I would never implement it as a feature. But I could possibly allow it by special request, in future mice that are programmed in-house.


well there's a few of us (mostly myself







)
http://www.overclock.net/t/1588408/teensy-mod-and-firmware-for-g100s/0_100
http://www.overclock.net/t/1595500/zalman-zm-m600r-pics/0_100#post_25035718
http://www.overclock.net/t/1595500/zalman-zm-m600r-pics/100_100#post_25557483
http://www.overclock.net/t/1598978/a-wireless-mouse-faster-than-logitechs-wired-ones-oh-yes/0_100


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I'm not surprised, and I'm not saying what happened is excusable, but its more down to having had enough, and being selfish in that way, and forgetful, than it was intentional scamming or anything like that.


Is that the case for the disappearing acts? I'm getting the hard questions for the people.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I just prefer if people are angry with me, to be angry for the right reasons.
> I didn't refund some people.
> I was selfish and let my emotions get in the way of customer service


I believe in second chances, but this is pretty pitiful to read that you let emotions on the matter destroy customer relations.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> But it wasn't some elaborate scam, and since IMO thats a much worse accusation, since it means I would have set out to scam everyone, in a premeditated way, rather than be neglectful over about 5 or so refunds, so of course I will try and set the record straight. But I'm not saying anything more than that, like "forgive me" or "how dare you be angry", thats down to everyone's individual decision.


Fair enough.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Also I'm trying to show that the situation that caused all of that in the first place, are things that can't really happen again.


Avoiding refunds/CS and skipping town should be avoided.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> It could be, I don't actually know for sure.


Take a note from Nixeus: have some control over your firmware. You should have learned from the firmware issues with the Aurora to not have this answer stated.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> What will probably be the result is something like other OEM 3360 mice,


so how will this be any better than the revel or the dm1 pro


----------



## wareya

it won't be overpriced

(or will it)


----------



## Dreyka

Well we've had Finalfail so there is always room for more failures.

All that can be said is. *Buyer beware* when considering the history of disappearing customer service and owner. A good mouse is a good mouse but if you are going to buy this mouse then do it under the expectations of bad QC, no refund, no fix and a disappearing owner. But this time will be different


----------



## Ickz

Don't cheap out on the scroll wheel or side button switches - use a good switch for it that doesn't take crazy amounts of force to depress or feel cheap/hollow.

Kinda sucks if softwareless - been using a 1440p monitor recently and 800 dpi is a bit low and 1200 too high.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Is that the case for the disappearing acts? I'm getting the hard questions for the people.


Well its just a case of balancing what I NEED to say and do, with what I felt obliged to say and do.
I like to reply to everyone and it creates this huge load of work, which is just off putting, especially if you're too busy for a week, it piles up.
The thing is I usually spend too long writing things so people don't get the wrong idea. After a while (years of it), I admit I get sick of it.

All I can say is, in future I'll reply/announce things when I need to (so I won't be AWOL), but if I don't reply to everyone then its not because I'm ignoring people, just that it means the quality of reply I want to write I don't have time for and I'm only replying/announcing important things.
All you can do is see if that happens or not.. theres not much else to ask about or do thats going to change anything...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Take a note from Nixeus: have some control over your firmware. You should have learned from the firmware issues with the Aurora to not have this answer stated.


In what way do they have control over their firmware?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> so how will this be any better than the revel or the dm1 pro


"better" is a bit subjective in that context, its a different shape, with different features. For some people one may be better for them, than the other.


----------



## badben25

Please be cheap in terms of pricing like the Aurora was, maybe US$55 tops but obviously as low as you can. Current day 3360 mouse prices are often not justifiable IMO.


----------



## bst

It will be between 40-50 USD.

55 USD is about the right price really, the 3360 mice are a fair bit more expensive than the 3090. So the price will be lower than that, but can't go too low or it means theres no margins for retailers.

When I decided I wouldn't sell the Aurora to retailers, I took the retail margin off, since it didn't matter any more.

(but one note: In a way, using amazon fulfilment can be a little bit like selling to a retailer, since they take their charges)


----------



## wareya

You can get the revel new for 45 USD on amazon so I think it's a really bad idea to stay any higher than 45 past the first couple weeks of release.


----------



## Xanatos

i received my refund just to let some of you know.

bst, good luck on the next mouse.


----------



## a_ak57

Forget the OEM mouse, you should create a 3360 setup that can be put into the G9X chassis.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> ...ll I can say is, in future I'll reply/announce things when I need to (so I won't be AWOL)...


Sounds good. Hope it sticks.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> In what way do they have control over their firmware?


Flasher, changing polling, removed mcu smoothing, incoming software to change stuff like lighting, dpi steps, a few other bits.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Flasher, changing polling, removed mcu smoothing, incoming software to change stuff like lighting, dpi steps, a few other bits.


Just because they do that though, doesn't mean they have access to the firmware, or know exactly who is producing it.

IDK what makes you think they aren't also using E-signal, you never know







They use a Holtek MCU which is kind of the hallmark... if it were in-house it'd probably be an ARM MCU since they're way easier to work with.

I can have (and/or do have) all those things you mentioned, too.

Also if you read previous posts you'll see I was talking about the debounce method and syncing the 3360's burst mode with the USB polling with wareya and qsxcv earlier, because it'll be programmed into the MCU.

For now the mouse is softwareless, but its got more options than a normal softwareless mouse, but will show what it can do when its finished


----------



## ragemuffin

What about Aurora buyers who own a broken mouse?
I'm still left with a mouse broken by the firmware, making it unusable due to low malfunction speeds.


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ragemuffin*
> 
> What about Aurora buyers who own a broken mouse?
> I'm still left with a mouse broken by the firmware, making it unusable due to low malfunction speeds.


In that case... free mice all around everybody!


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Just because they do that though, doesn't mean they have access to the firmware, or know exactly who is producing it.
> 
> IDK what makes you think they aren't also using E-signal, you never know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They use a Holtek MCU which is kind of the hallmark... if it were in-house it'd probably be an ARM MCU since they're way easier to work with.
> 
> I can have (and/or do have) all those things you mentioned, too.
> 
> Also if you read previous posts you'll see I was talking about the debounce method and syncing the 3360's burst mode with the USB polling with wareya and qsxcv earlier, because it'll be programmed into the MCU.
> 
> For now the mouse is softwareless, but its got more options than a normal softwareless mouse, but will show what it can do when its finished


The mouse (Revel) shipped with none of that extra stuff. The community asked for it (removing extra smoothing, 500hz) and they pushed it out months after release. That is control. Doesn't matter who's coding it as long as you can get the right changes, fixes, etc. My stress on it is to implement features or fixes. Regardless the stance on software customization, having the ability for firmware updates and changes/fixes is important. Unless you want to stay with bugs a la Zowie or FinalMouse. Though in FM's defense they have a flashing tool of sorts that kind of works.

I'm aware of the other debounce discussion, but not talking about that if you got confused with it.


----------



## kicksome

Keen to see what oem shell you are using. How long before you disclose that?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> The mouse (Revel) shipped with none of that extra stuff. The community asked for it (removing extra smoothing, 500hz) and they pushed it out months after release. That is control. Doesn't matter who's coding it as long as you can get the right changes, fixes, etc. My stress on it is to implement features or fixes. Regardless the stance on software customization, having the ability for firmware updates and changes/fixes is important. Unless you want to stay with bugs a la Zowie or FinalMouse. Though in FM's defense they have a flashing tool of sorts that kind of works.
> 
> I'm aware of the other debounce discussion, but not talking about that if you got confused with it.


E-signal does flash updates, I've had them before on some samples I tried in the past, so shouldn't be a problem.

The Aurora ofc didn't have a Flash MCU, the holtek equivalent wasn't out when the Aurora was designed. It was fairly common back then but not now. Thats why the Aurora couldn't be updated, also why it took longer to develop, since they couldn't just email me a flash file, they had to make new mice every time.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Keen to see what oem shell you are using. How long before you disclose that?


When I get the production sample, as long as its ready to go, then I'll disclose everything.


----------



## Soo8

I'm speculating that it's gonna be this shell: 
This thing is has a similar hump to the ZA and has \__/ sides in the front.


----------



## zeflow

Should just keep the same shell..


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Should just keep the same shell..


This sounds good to me to be honest.


----------



## stuntz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> This sounds good to me to be honest.


Yep keep the same shell and do a better QC on it and call it V2, people arent complaining that the mouse was bad people mostly complained they never got it


----------



## avensvvvvvv

Since after all this time (over two years) you have finally refunded me for not sending the pre-ordered mice, I'll tell you a tip.

What I miss the most about old-school mice is I could death-grip them, meaning in Q3 I could squeeze a WMO and just constantly hit LG (tracking precise weapon).

There's not a single mouse on the market that has enough space for thumbs to just squeeze it and constantly hit. All new mice just use that space for the mouse4 and mouse5 buttons. Out of current mice, the ZA12 has the closest shape for that, but the sensor doesn't feel as smooth as said example.

Find a shell that has enough space for thumbs to death grip the mouse, and you'll have something unique.

Though I'm still not going to buy your new mouse because you've been quite the ******* during all this process, that started back in 2011 in ESReality.


----------



## turnschuh

Welcome back bst.

Hope you succeed with this one and maybe one day you can mold us an exact WMO copy









For this mouse, i have to agree that having side buttons on both sides would be the way to go. After everyone releasing them on the left side only, there is a better chance of selling the mouse and lefties would like it. They would have to be flush though like on the FK1.

For the steps think about putting in more variety between the 400 - 1600 CPI range (like 1000/1200 etc) and ditch steps nobody would use. (leave 12000 for sensor rattle check, lol)

Not sure if you or the factory can do that but:
Think about the default LoD setting, so that its not too low for slightly higher feet replacements, etc.

Maybe even make a poll of how high/low it should be. LoD too low as on most 3360 mice can be annoying sometimes.


----------



## qsxcv

is there any chance of using an atmel avr mcu instead of holtek in there?









if you manage to, there are a few of us on here who will gladly help write the firmware


----------



## Klopfer

holtek mcu always makes me "hmmmmm" ......


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> I'm speculating that it's gonna be this shell:
> This thing is has a similar hump to the ZA and has \__/ sides in the front.


good find. If it's not this then I think it might be the the motospeed v30 or v40.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Nope, all I'll say is its a pretty common mouse, if I showed it to you, you'd probably recognise it. But I won't reveal it until I get the first sample.
> The mouse its based on has a lot of reviews on Amazon and I didn't see any issues with the shell, mostly people put the shell as the best thing about it, saying it feels high quality etc.
> Heres the ratings distribution for the mouse on amazon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has over 100 reviews so not bad, bearing in mind they're reviewing the sensor and software too (which in that mouse was much lower spec than the 3360).


After going through 233 pages of mice on amazon I can't find a mouse similar to what you describe with over 100 reviews. So GG, I guess i'll have to wait like everybody else to see the shape


----------



## plath

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Should just keep the same shell..


i'll 4th this. i liked the aurora shell because it was small, light and low.


----------



## Brigand253

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plath*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Should just keep the same shell..
> 
> 
> 
> i'll 4th this. i liked the aurora shell because it was small, light and low.
Click to expand...

I was thinking along the same lines. If this mouse does well, would you (bst) be willing to consider re-releasing the Aurora with a 3360?

The tear drop shape is my favorite and you don't find many mice like that nowadays.


----------



## j0hn

would buy aurora with 3360, the new shape probably not. So many mice with similar shapes already


----------



## bst

I would have made the Aurora with the 3360 but it costs a LOT more to develop than this mouse, for various reasons







Also I prefer this new factory, they're more attentive than the old one and speak better english... which is a big deal.

Since the Aurora and WMO use the same PCB size, they could be next, would prefer to send the new factory the mice and have them make new molds (would definitely need it for the WMO anyway). Then we could have them with separated main buttons, more modern design, and if people want it, exchangeable side grips with side buttons built in or with no side buttons (then you could choose what you wanted)... obviously with an emphasis on low weight, ease of use and strength. I would do that NOW if I could, but I can't... but I still think enough people will like the new mouse, its nice, I actually prefer it to the Aurora and I used that all this time (for years) because I couldn't find a shape I preferred over it.


----------



## badben25

If, in the future, a 3360 based Aurora came out..

With a similar PCB as first Aurora..

We could transplant into WMO..

WMO with 3360 O_O


----------



## qsxcv

i'd prefer mlt04 in aurora shape


----------



## 3Shells

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plath*
> 
> i'll 4th this. i liked the aurora shell because it was small, light and low.


Same, wish BST just made a better aurora.


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Also I prefer this new factory, they're more attentive than the old one and speak better english... which is a big deal.


This has been a major headache for us as well... So i know exactly what you mean.


----------



## realistic01

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i'd prefer mlt04 in aurora shape


Didn't know you liked the MLT04 mate, thought you were still playing with that modded g100 of yours


----------



## qsxcv

well i've been rotating between that, the g pro, and the g102

i don't feel comfortable enough with any of the mlt04 shapes :/
maybe i'll give the optical blue another try


----------



## plath

any idea when the mouse will be released?


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *avensvvvvvv*
> 
> Since after all this time (over two years) you have finally refunded me for not sending the pre-ordered mice, I'll tell you a tip.
> 
> What I miss the most about old-school mice is I could death-grip them, meaning in Q3 I could squeeze a WMO and just constantly hit LG (tracking precise weapon).
> 
> There's not a single mouse on the market that has enough space for thumbs to just squeeze it and constantly hit. All new mice just use that space for the mouse4 and mouse5 buttons. Out of current mice, the ZA12 has the closest shape for that, but the sensor doesn't feel as smooth as said example.
> 
> Find a shell that has enough space for thumbs to death grip the mouse, and you'll have something unique.
> 
> Though I'm still not going to buy your new mouse because you've been quite the ******* during all this process, that started back in 2011 in ESReality.


I used death grip on ss rival back in the day. It had enough space, the original one though the new one has painful rubber sides to me. After you burn through the rubber you can squeeze it super hard. Terrible for your hands though


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plath*
> 
> any idea when the mouse will be released?


Depends if they finish everything before Jan 27th (Chinese new year) or not, if they do then could be available around mid Feb, if they don't then more like mid March. Thats assuming they get everything right on the first sample.


----------



## bst

I've made a poll to see what surface coating people prefer:

http://www.strawpoll.me/11868826

I was going to just make the first batch rubber... but just curious what the results of this poll would be (maybe I could add another coating to the order if one is very popular, or at least gauge some interest for future orders).


----------



## wareya

What does the kone pure military do? I want that.


----------



## bst

Says its rubber here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1499343/roccat-kone-pure-military-review/0_100


----------



## wareya

It's not "rubber" in the way people think of it (rubber blocks/sheets/film attached to plastic), it's like a matte paint that doesn't peel off, but you can file it down so it's still a surface element. It might be made of or with rubber, though. You should acquire one, the KPM is a great example of how to make loud scrollwheels and attached buttonpieces work well. Actually, I suspect roccat is going to announce a successor to the KPM soon, since the KPM is out of production but it was a very popular mouse.


----------



## bst

Sounds like normal rubber coating to me? Same as what was on the Aurora? There will be differences between mice, coming from different factories who use different suppliers though.

I've asked for the same kind of scroll wheel, its an ALPS encoder, it has little clicks for each step on the scroll wheel.
http://imagescdn.tweaktown.com/content/5/7/5710_24_roccat_kone_pure_optical_core_performance_gaming_mouse_review_full.jpg


----------



## wareya

Normal rubber coating "peels" off in a nasty way when it wears down, which is a lot worse than any wear you get with straight plastic. Whatever the KPM uses doesn't, it acts like a hard surface when under wear, that's why I said you can "file it off".


----------



## bst

Ah I see. It might be a more complicated way of doing it, so the plastic and rubber are bonded inside the mold, unfortunately that can't be done with OEM shells


----------



## wareya

matte all the way then


----------



## Maximillion

Glossy or matte (if you wanna be picky). Anything but rubber...too much that can go awry.


----------



## Bucake

tough question to answer without samples. any kind of coating could work well as long as there has been some research / trial and error.
unfortunately most factories ship mice with terrible texture, dunno if it's a lack of research or just cheaping out on the process..

i wouldn't just blindly pick one based on some poll. opinions here will be based on prior experiences, which might not be at all similar to what your factory can deliver.
pick 20 random mice with "rubber coating" and you will find extremely big differences in grip, feel and longevity.

i'm with Maximillion if you're just gonna pick one blindly.
mainly i just hope you won't make a plain ABS mouse because that stuff is awful.


----------



## qsxcv

aurora's coating is probably my favorite








but does anyone know if it's durable? (since i don't use the aurora often)


----------



## CorruptBE

I never had rubber wore down for me, but I've also seen the opposite. Probably depends on sweatiness of hands, etc as well or acidity of people's sweat.

I'm pretty sure my hands are simply quite dry. My desk chair however needs to be replaced. After a few summers patches of rubber have worn off, guess the rest of my body does sweat


----------



## Melan

You need a gaming chair for your sweaty butt.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I never had rubber wore down for me, but I've also seen the opposite. Probably depends on sweatiness of hands, etc as well or acidity of people's sweat.
> 
> I'm pretty sure my hands are simply quite dry. My desk chair however needs to be replaced. After a few summers patches of rubber have worn off, guess the rest of my body does sweat


I had one of those rubber coated chairs with just some normal cushioning underneath, the coating started peeling off after a few years and it made a mess...EVERYWHERE...


----------



## Bucake

big misconception that sweat is the main factor in how (fast) rubber (coating) deteriorates..


----------



## bst

It does seem like its sweat though (or maybe a combination of sweat/friction/grip force), I've used the same Aurora for years and never had any of the rubber coating come away, but one of my friends doesn't buy rubber coated mice as it always wears away for him


----------



## bst

Just confirmed with the factory, the mice will have the ALPS scroll wheel encoder instead of TTC, should be much better (quality and more tactile).


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Just confirmed with the factory, the mice will have the ALPS scroll wheel encoder instead of TTC, should be much better (quality and more tactile).


Optical or Mechanical? Not sure if this was confirmed yet or not.


----------



## bst

Mechanical. Its a good one though (accurate), unlike others which can be a bit hit or miss.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Mechanical. Its a good one though (accurate), unlike others which can be a bit hit or miss.


My Kinzu v1's wheel is mechanical and I can give it the seal of FeelsGoodMan.


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> It does seem like its sweat though (or maybe a combination of sweat/friction/grip force), I've used the same Aurora for years and never had any of the rubber coating come away, but one of my friends doesn't buy rubber coated mice as it always wears away for him


of course friction affects coating, as does sweat in almost all cases, but this specific nasty rubber deterioration has nothing to do with those things.
i think older zowie mice had this issue, as did some older logitech mice. some coatings also have an issue where they don't bind well enough, and those will start peeling off later.
it really just depends on the coating and on the process.

so i guess your old factory did something really well with the aurora. hopefully that new factory can do it equally well









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Optical or Mechanical? Not sure if this was confirmed yet or not.


does ALPS even make optical mouse encoders? can't recall every seeing one.
and i think the kinzu uses TTC - ALPS should be even better feeling


----------



## qsxcv

yea i think the wheel itself (how tightly the shaft fits) and the plastic housing surrounding it affects feel more than the brand of encoder


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> does ALPS even make optical mouse encoders? can't recall every seeing one.
> and i think the kinzu uses TTC - ALPS should be even better feeling


No clue, and yeah the Kinzu uses a TTC encoder.


----------



## bst

Well, I just found the TTC site (its moved since last time), and it says you can customise the encoders, so it might bet better to go with TTC if I can do that, because Alps encoders aren't that easy to get, I have to pre-order them.

http://ttc9.com/cp/index.php/product/pList/id/313.html
Ⅴ: torque category: 1
0: No torque
1: partial light torque: 14-26gf.cm (this was the Aurora scroll wheel - too light)
2: standard partial light torque: 14-40gf.cm
3: standard torque: 22-45gf.cm
4: bias torque: 30-55gf.cm
5: Product torque: 30 ± 10gf.cm
6: Product torque: 50 ± 20gf.cm
7: Product torque: 100gf.cm

The Alps scroll wheel is 50-80 gf.cm.

Maybe a TTC with 50 ± 20gf.cm would be good. One thing that stands out to me is the Alps has a life of 100,000 cycles and the TTC has 400,000, although in practice I think the Alps might last longer (a bit like the Japanese D2F Omrons being 1M even though they last longer than the 5M Chinese D2FCs).

This is the scroll wheel that fits in the mouse (its the same as the Aurora): http://ttc9.com/cp/index.php/product/pList/id/275/e/1.html

This is the Alps Encoder: http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/Encoder/Incremental/EC10E/EC10E1220503.html


----------



## Soo8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Well, I just found the TTC site (its moved since last time), and it says you can customise the encoders, so it might bet better to go with TTC if I can do that, because Alps encoders aren't that easy to get, I have to pre-order them.
> 
> http://ttc9.com/cp/index.php/product/pList/id/313.html
> Ⅴ: torque category: 1
> 0: No torque
> 1: partial light torque: 14-26gf.cm (this was the Aurora scroll wheel - too light)
> 2: standard partial light torque: 14-40gf.cm
> 3: standard torque: 22-45gf.cm
> 4: bias torque: 30-55gf.cm
> 5: Product torque: 30 ± 10gf.cm
> 6: Product torque: 50 ± 20gf.cm
> 7: Product torque: 100gf.cm
> 
> The Alps scroll wheel is 50-80 gf.cm.
> 
> Maybe a TTC with 50 ± 20gf.cm would be good. One thing that stands out to me is the Alps has a life of 100,000 cycles and the TTC has 400,000, although in practice I think the Alps might last longer (a bit like the Japanese D2F Omrons being 1M even though they last longer than the 5M Chinese D2FCs).
> 
> This is the scroll wheel that fits in the mouse (its the same as the Aurora): http://ttc9.com/cp/index.php/product/pList/id/275/e/1.html
> 
> This is the Alps Encoder: http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/Encoder/Incremental/EC10E/EC10E1220503.html


Those black TTC 50gf are the best TTC encoders for mice. Very similar to Alps EC10E in terms of force and feel. And the build quality is better than the TTC red and cyan ones. They aren't as smooth as Alps, but that's because Alps come pre-lubed. Those black TTC 50gf's certainly have my thumb of approval if Alps is not an option.


----------



## bst

Thanks Soo8.

The only problem with the Alps is they take 2 months to order, so I have to order them now, and always order more than I need so it doesn't delay future orders. If the TTCs can be ordered faster then I'll go with them, the main thing was the operating force after all.


----------



## bst

Ok I changed it to TTC 50 ± 20gf.cm, also changed to the highest lifespan of 1 million cycles, don't have to wait 2 months for them







They cost the same as Alps so better be good


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Ok I changed it to TTC 50 ± 20gf.cm, also changed to the highest lifespan of 1 million cycles, don't have to wait 2 months for them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They cost the same as Alps so better be good


And if they're not, we get Alps...right...RIGHT?!


----------



## Skar

Thats the one in the DA Elite - i felt its too soft. Sacrificed step feeling for reliability, meh.


----------



## wareya

quiet scrolls are good


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skar*
> 
> Thats the one in the DA Elite - i felt its too soft. Sacrificed step feeling for reliability, meh.


I wonder what torque it had though, maybe they used a lower torque?
Theres all of these to choose from:

Ⅴ: torque category: 1
0: No torque
1: partial light torque: 14-26gf.cm (this was the Aurora scroll wheel - too light)
2: standard partial light torque: 14-40gf.cm
3: standard torque: 22-45gf.cm
4: bias torque: 30-55gf.cm
5: Product torque: 30 ± 10gf.cm
6: Product torque: 50 ± 20gf.cm
7: Product torque: 100gf.cm

It has a 1M marking but can't see any marking for the torque. I wonder if that means its standard (1) ?
http://cdn.overclock.net/e/ea/500x1000px-LL-eaaf8da6_CIMG1110.jpeg


----------



## Soo8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skar*
> 
> Thats the one in the DA Elite - i felt its too soft. Sacrificed step feeling for reliability, meh.


DA Elite uses a different one. These ones to be exact. And Razer probably didn't care enough to customise the force, and the default for those is like 32gf.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> quiet scrolls are good


Agree. Dont know much about encoders but if its anything like the scroll my old DA 3.5g had, its good imo. (without the heavy M3 click, but thats not the encoders fault, i guess)

Zowie wheels are the complete opposite for example.
Just loud and unreliable.


----------



## achetck

hello everybody i'm going to reveal the hyped shape of the next Ninox, first of all thanks to BST to make the best shapest mouses todays in the world, i can assume a lot of problems with indie company its so logic, so if you are a buyer you need to assume it. Anyway i ALWAYS will try any ninox in the market (but never first unrevised enough versions) because i love to try all perials in the market (mouses and headphones). I'm playing with absolutly updated setup to FPS and Fast Paced shooters, actualy playing on a cs-go competitive team in my region, and all this with aurora ninox + paracod cable mod + double surfers in, assuming im not with top sensor, but for me shape > sensor, because your confort makes play you much better than still 2-3 generation of sensor up. But 2017 its more than 3 generations old 3090, and you can feel it in a similar mouse to aurora ninox, logitech g pro with i compared some weeks ago when a friend came to my house and we swap between them playing 1 round each mouse.

So, now i'm going to revelate the information everybody its waiting for, at the begining i was thinking that the new case was from Motospeed v30 (you need to see this case, looks really amazing, but the components of this mouse are literaly ****). But after reading every details i found the mouse BST is describing
The brand is called Sunsonny, and they are so similar to Cobra mouses, (Cobra E-blue was my first try searching an epic shape mouse like 7 years ago, when i was using intellimouse or wmo) and literaly was very nice shape, but not good enough componentes, so i went back to Microsoft mouses.

There are pictures of the new aurora case:

http://image.dhgate.com/albu_758358032_00/1.0x0.jpg
http://image.dhgate.com/albu_758358029_00/1.0x0.jpg
http://image.dhgate.com/albu_758358078_00/1.0x0.jpg

i'm not bran lover anymore of any brand, because when they are so popular they relax and stop making decent products, like microsoft at the begining, logitech they started to make spaceships, steelseries, zowie. But well i just want advise to BST about one thing, you can find Logitech g102 wich is exactly same as G Pro for 30-35€ in asian market, so assuming this, that this is your main rival, you cannot put higher price than 40€, no way.

If you play FPS Competitive games (cs,quake,cod,battlefield,dod,overwatch,insurgency), i will recommend you to take a look on my equipment that you can find in my steam profile:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/acheTCK/


----------



## m0uz

Just hope it's done well and doesn't have lots of ridges on it like most of those diamondback-esque ones do.


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Just hope it's done well and doesn't have lots of ridges on it like most of those diamondback-esque ones do.


Are you taking that post seriously?


----------



## Maximillion

lol


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> Are you taking that post seriously?


Now that I've engaged my brain, there's no doubt in my mind that I've taken the bait.


----------



## bst

Yeah its not the Sunsonny mouse shell.

I have a V30, its not too bad for an OEM mouse, but it has some flaws that are expensive to fix.

TBH, the plan is to move away from OEM shells, as long as this one is well received. I have 3 mice in mind which can use the same "sensor PCB", so its easy to just buy shells once you've already bought one of the mice. Also makes any warranty replacements easier, if its just a bad switch, then its cheaper to replace the shell than it is to replace the whole mouse







(the sensor PCB would just unclip out of the old shell).


----------



## kicksome

@bst when are you going to release what shell you are using?


----------



## the1onewolf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Now that I've engaged my brain, there's no doubt in my mind that I've taken the bait.


New Year New Mistakes


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> @bst when are you going to release what shell you are using?


I would like to send a sample to someone like qsxcv first, have him test it, and then reveal it. So when I do reveal it, at least I have some impartial backup and all the info comes out at once. I guess its about 3 weeks away from that happening.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> If, in the future, a 3360 based Aurora came out..
> 
> With a similar PCB as first Aurora..
> 
> We could transplant into WMO..
> 
> WMO with 3360 O_O


*THIS has to happen, don't waste time using other weaker designs stick to the Classic here and everything shall be perfect.*

WMO with a bare knuckle 3360 sensor with 0% smoothing, will be far greater than any other same sensor released this year or the next.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> TBH, the plan is to move away from OEM shells, as long as this one is well received. I have 3 mice in mind which can use the same "sensor PCB", so its easy to just buy shells once you've already bought one of the mice. Also makes any warranty replacements easier, if its just a bad switch, then its cheaper to replace the shell than it is to replace the whole mouse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the sensor PCB would just unclip out of the old shell).


Please go back to the WMO because that is the mouse every living soul knows about and has used, so again reconsider going back to basics instead of designing another complicated design that will fail.

Make it complex and watch all the complaints and whining come in. Keep it Stupid Simple and this next Mouse Model of yours could slaughter every other 3360 model out there.


----------



## bst

Really if a WMO is what people want, and they want it quick, then kickstarter is the way to go.

I know people are like, "oh no don't do kickstarter, not after the pre-orders last time".

But it is the fastest and most sure way to do it. If people like the Firmware thats in the new mouse, then it'd just be the same thing but in a WMO, so I don't see any huge problems, its just making a mold and adapting the PCB to the shell, its not like a whole new mouse.

The only thing is it would be restricted to those I can serve through Amazon, since that is the safest way to do these things. But that would cover USA/Canada/UK/Europe.

If it goes well I'll do more shapes. Anyhow I don't see the harm in trying, it'll either get funded or it won't...

But first I actually have to have a mouse to showcase the firmware, thats what this new mouse is. Just because its an OEM mouse though doesn't mean its a bad shell or anything though... I personally prefer it to the Aurora


----------



## popups

I rather have a modified WMO design over a straight WMO shell and custom PCB. There are angles and dimensions I would change on the WMO. I would like it to have side buttons too. It would be much better than a FK or ZA.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I rather have a modified WMO design over a straight WMO shell and custom PCB. There are angles and dimensions I would change on the WMO. I would like it to have side buttons too.


Prefer NO side buttons, why because I have the use of keyboards everywhere around my home and office.

Don't bastardize a classic shape to please a tiny minority here, always go with the TRUE believers wanting the reintroduction of this fantastic shape. After all we are the ones still using our WMOs forever more, despite all the junk gear already released by a myriad of companies.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Prefer NO side buttons, why because I have the use of keyboards everywhere around my home and office.
> 
> Don't bastardize a classic shape to please a tiny minority here, always go with the TRUE believers wanting the reintroduction of this fantastic shape. After all we are the ones still using our WMOs forever more, despite all the junk gear already released by a myriad of companies.


I need side buttons to play my best in FPS games like GO. I don't have to remove my fingers from WASD.

My FK is 80g with 2 side buttons, whereas my WMO is 80g without any side buttons.

I think the arch of the WMO could be 1-2mm lower and the apex a little further forward. The sides could be wider and flow into the rear and top of the mouse better. The main buttons could give you more space for your fingers to rest on the side of the mouse and they could be longer. The area surrounding the scroll wheel could be its own area instead being part of the main buttons.


----------



## pr0l4nd

Everybody wants sth different. Don't overthink and make it classic.
Imo, side buttons shouldn't cause problem in grip, because wmo is pretty high.


----------



## bst

I think the shape and dimensions should be the same, if its meant for people who like the WMO, then changing its shape means it won't be what they wanted.

I agree with changing the scroll wheel area, and adding side buttons (on the left side only) though. The width of the L+R buttons would be smaller, to give more grip at the sides and make room for the side buttons. There would also be a DPI button behind the scroll wheel.


----------



## Alya

If you're going to change the scroll, it'd be nice if it was further up and low profile, since there's some wheels that are obnoxiously large to the point where it affects my grip on the mouse.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pr0l4nd*
> 
> Everybody wants sth different. Don't overthink and make it classic.


Might as well just make a PCB to drop into the original WMO shell. Basically get some WMOs and Hyper Glides. That would be like 35$?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> If you're going to change the scroll, it'd be nice if it was further up and low profile, since there's some wheels that are obnoxiously large to the point where it affects my grip on the mouse.


The location of the wheel on the WMO is pretty good and the wheel isn't that thick. I don't like thick wheels because it forces your fingers apart.


----------



## bst

Hmm well I was just talking about
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> If you're going to change the scroll, it'd be nice if it was further up and low profile, since there's some wheels that are obnoxiously large to the point where it affects my grip on the mouse.


Idk about changing the position of it, but I was talking about having it more like the IMO, where the buttons don't meet in the middle, so theres a place for people to rest their finger. Actually the mouse would look pretty similar to the IMO but be the shape of the WMO.


----------



## popups

Remember this mouse?



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Hmm well I was just talking about
> Idk about changing the position of it, but I was talking about having it more like the IMO, where the buttons don't meet in the middle, so theres a place for people to rest their finger.


Having the groove extend to the front is better, in my opinion, because it allows you to move the mouse easier. You could move the FK a little with only your middle finger in the groove; if you put your palm on the mouse you could swipe without using any other fingers.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Remember this mouse?
> 
> 
> Having the groove extend to the front is better, in my opinion, because it allows you to move the mouse easier. You could move the FK a little with only your middle finger in the groove; if you put your palm on the mouse you could swipe without using any other fingers.


Yeah I remember that mouse







I went a bit further on it. The WMO works quite nice with the ergonomic bit on the side (I modded one).


A pic of it in white:


Yeah I agree about the groove extending down in front of the scroll wheel


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Hmm well I was just talking about
> Idk about changing the position of it, but I was talking about having it more like the IMO, where the buttons don't meet in the middle, so theres a place for people to rest their finger. Actually the mouse would look pretty similar to the IMO but be the shape of the WMO.


If that's the case then it looks like it will be very, very comfortable. Very nice for 1-3-1 users like myself, mice like the Deathadder have that huge space in the middle of it which means i have no place to put my middle finger, and it can be a pain to get a comfortable grip on the mouse because of it.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yeah I remember that mouse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went a bit further on it. The WMO works quite nice with the ergonomic bit on the side (I modded one).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I agree about the groove extending down in front of the scroll wheel


That mouse looks flatter than a IMO and WMO, which I think is better (if it isn't Zowie FK kind of flat)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> If that's the case then it looks like it will be very, very comfortable. Very nice for 1-3-1 users like myself, mice like the Deathadder have that huge space in the middle of it which means i have no place to put my middle finger, and it can be a pain to get a comfortable grip on the mouse because of it.


I use the same type of grip. The DeathAdder was okay because I can put my finger inside the gap, but it wasn't ideal. I am fine with the type of groove that is on the FK and ZA.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Prefer NO side buttons, why because I have the use of keyboards everywhere around my home and office.
> 
> Don't bastardize a classic shape to please a tiny minority here, always go with the TRUE believers wanting the reintroduction of this fantastic shape. After all we are the ones still using our WMOs forever more, despite all the junk gear already released by a myriad of companies.


Tiny minority? Side buttons are pretty much standard these days, even just for back and forth actions in the OS, browser etc.


----------



## shaiaz

Looking forward to see what you can come up with this time BST


----------



## Gylfen

Oh, nice! you came back bst! Im still using the aurora and its still going strong!


----------



## hammelgammler

How would you say does the Aurora stands in comparison to all the other mice out there with similar shape?

I think to buy one, as it would cost me about 30€ or so, and seems to be really light and about the G100s shape.

Are there any problems with it? I would need to buy one from Amazon UK (I live in Germany). How is the LOD?


----------



## resis

Bst, hey long time no chat.

Make sure your new mouse has a good wheel, please!

I use the Zowie FK2 right now. Love the hell out of it, it's just perfect in almost every sense, but the wheel makes me want to trash it. It feels like it's stuck on a single scroll sometimes and next time you touch it, it scrolls two times, or "unlocks" by itself and then scrolls when you don't need it. You also barely feel the notches.

Screw you Zowie for cheaping out the wheel!

I'm sorry if I just walk in like that, been not here in a long, but what's the news on a new bst mouse?


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> the wheel makes me want to trash it. It feels like it's stuck on a single scroll sometimes and next time you touch it, it scrolls two times, or "unlocks" by itself and then scrolls when you don't need it. You also barely feel the notches.
> 
> Screw you Zowie for cheaping out the wheel!


And here I am with my 4th Zowie mouse without a single issue with the scrollwheel. I just love it, it doesn't skip notches or anything.


----------



## Alya

I never had accidental scrolling issues on my Zowie mice, but turning slowly in-game felt pretty awful on any of the newer Zowie mice, the FK and normal EC2 felt alright, but the EC2 had a lot of jitter on 1000Hz.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> Looking forward to see what you can come up with this time BST


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gylfen*
> 
> Oh, nice! you came back bst! Im still using the aurora and its still going strong!


Thanks!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hammelgammler*
> 
> How would you say does the Aurora stands in comparison to all the other mice out there with similar shape?
> 
> I think to buy one, as it would cost me about 30€ or so, and seems to be really light and about the G100s shape.
> 
> Are there any problems with it? I would need to buy one from Amazon UK (I live in Germany). How is the LOD?


The Aurora is discontinued, but yes there are still some in stock at the moment on Amazon UK.

There are a couple of problems:
The buttons have very low latency on their own, but if you press two together, the second button is delayed by 50ms.
Some people had some trouble with the software.

The LOD is around 2mm (just under 2 CDs).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Bst, hey long time no chat.
> 
> Make sure your new mouse has a good wheel, please!
> 
> I use the Zowie FK2 right now. Love the hell out of it, it's just perfect in almost every sense, but the wheel makes me want to trash it. It feels like it's stuck on a single scroll sometimes and next time you touch it, it scrolls two times, or "unlocks" by itself and then scrolls when you don't need it. You also barely feel the notches.
> 
> Screw you Zowie for cheaping out the wheel!
> 
> I'm sorry if I just walk in like that, been not here in a long, but what's the news on a new bst mouse?


I'm trying out a new TTC scroll wheel on the samples, which has a higher operating force and longer life span than the one on the Aurora. Theres a discussion about it a few posts up. I don't have the samples yet, they're about a week or so away, will let you know what its like when I get them









If the samples are good then the mouse could be coming out in mid-late march.


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> If the samples are good then the mouse could be coming out in mid-late march.


ngga don't be giving out release dates again.
the only real time we should hear from you is when you can tell us "Mouse ready to go on your desks bois, temme what ya'll think"


----------



## resis

Heh, yeah release dates are tricky. Thanks for the heads up, bst.


----------



## bst

I'll have to announce the mouse elsewhere, I've been told by the admins I'm not allowed to advertise on here, also can't have my logo as my avatar (so got the Ninox Strenua owl now instead







).

I will announce it on the facebook page, don't think I'm allowed to say where that is though.

I can still answer questions on here but just can't announce anything.


----------



## a_ak57

I've never really understood why they enforce the rule the way they do; I get not wanting blatant advertising like "MY AMAZING NEW LIFE CHANGING MOUSE IS OUT GO BUY IT FOR THE STUNNING LOW PRICE OF $99 WOWOWOW" but there's zero difference between you saying "hey this is the mouse, check it out on this page" and me saying "hey this is the mouse, check it out on this page." If they're gonna be that black and white about things then you and other company reps should just not be allowed to post about your products at all.


----------



## wareya

Same. Announcements are important. It shouldn't matter who makes them as long as the forum isn't starting to fill up with them.


----------



## bst

I was offered to sign up to an "Advertisers Pack", maybe that will allow me to make announcements. I've sent off for more info on it anyway, will see what happens


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I was offered to sign up to an "Advertisers Pack", maybe that will allow me to make announcements. I've sent off for more info on it anyway, will see what happens


bst's profile picture isn't the Ninox logo?! Confirmed Ninox shutting down.


----------



## bst

Its similar to the ninox logo, at least?


----------



## Johan450

This new project reminded me that I had an aurora. Man I forgot how awful that cable is.


----------



## shaiaz

I am so ready to buy your new mouse, since I practically hate all current ones I have


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> I am so ready to buy your new mouse, since I practically hate all current ones I have


Send them to me.


----------



## shaiaz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Send them to me.


nooooooooooooo I'm gonna buy a nice cabinet for them soooon


----------



## Bucake

the owl.. it just isn't you. sorry.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johan450*
> 
> This new project reminded me that I had an aurora. Man I forgot how awful that cable is.


The cable, indeed. I replaced it with the cable of a Zowie AM I had lying around. That was the only way it was usable.


----------



## shaiaz

please make the clicks separate from the shell, based bst


----------



## Maximillion

I really like the Aurora's shape. I really want a lightly sturdier version of that. I know it can be done w/o a significant weight increase.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> please make the clicks separate from the shell, based bst


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I really like the Aurora's shape. I really want a lightly sturdier version of that. I know it can be done w/o a significant weight increase.


Idk if I'm allowed to say, but the new mouse is partly proof of the new firmware/PCB, but I have to use an OEM shell (due to cost). So if its well received, then I'll do a kickstarter for new shapes (aurora v2 etc). If the kickstarter gets to certain points there will be more than one new shape. All those shapes will have separate buttons, but the OEM mouse I'm using doesn't. Theres not much I can do about that as there isn't much choice out there for OEM shells








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> the owl.. it just isn't you. sorry.


Its not like I wanted to change my avatar though, was told to by admins... had to choose another one at short notice


----------



## pogoogers

new post, sry OCN mods

Hi bst, been following your thread pretty heavy for the past month, just wanted to show some support from one of the many lurkers on this board.

Is the OEM shell you've mentioned still similar to the EVGA TORQ X5 or WMO? I cant find much information surrounding it. Also this is the mouse you're calling the Venator, right? Thanks! ?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pogoogers*
> 
> new post, sry OCN mods
> 
> Hi bst, been following your thread pretty heavy for the past month, just wanted to show some support from one of the many lurkers on this board.


Hi







And thanks!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pogoogers*
> 
> Is the OEM shell you've mentioned still similar to the EVGA TORQ X5 or WMO? I cant find much information surrounding it. Also this is the mouse you're calling the Venator, right? Thanks! ?


The Zowie ZA12 is probably the closest looking mouse I can think of. They both have the hump further to the rear. Yep its called the Venator.


----------



## pogoogers

Dope, that's currently the mouse I think fits my hand best by a long shot so that is def the answer I was hoping to hear. Best of luck man, appreciate the fast response


----------



## bst

I received some samples this week, just thought I'd post a vid of the scroll wheel. The steps are tactile but its quite loud, so I'm interested to hear opinions. Personally, I don't mind it, although I prefer the smoother wheels because I rarely use the wheel in game.

https://youtu.be/0yRLd9RWbEk

Maybe you can tell what shell it uses from that vid ;D
I'm taking some decent photos soon but will probably have to put them on fb only. I'm being a bit cagey on here since I don't know what I'm allowed to say, but I assume asking about the scroll wheel is ok.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I received some samples this week, just thought I'd post a vid of the scroll wheel. The steps are tactile but its quite loud, so I'm interested to hear opinions. Personally, I don't mind it, although I prefer the smoother wheels because I rarely use the wheel in game.
> 
> https://youtu.be/0yRLd9RWbEk
> 
> Maybe you can tell what shell it uses from that vid ;D
> I'm taking some decent photos soon but will probably have to put them on fb only. I'm being a bit cagey on here since I don't know what I'm allowed to say, but I assume asking about the scroll wheel is ok.


I don't care how loud a scroll wheel is or how loud a switch is.


----------



## Brigand253

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I received some samples this week, just thought I'd post a vid of the scroll wheel. The steps are tactile but its quite loud, so I'm interested to hear opinions. Personally, I don't mind it, although I prefer the smoother wheels because I rarely use the wheel in game.
> 
> https://youtu.be/0yRLd9RWbEk
> 
> Maybe you can tell what shell it uses from that vid ;D
> I'm taking some decent photos soon but will probably have to put them on fb only. I'm being a bit cagey on here since I don't know what I'm allowed to say, but I assume asking about the scroll wheel is ok.


The loudness of a click or scroll wheel doesn't matter to me. I want to feel it; to get feedback from it. I prefer those clicks that offer some resistance, the Zowie ZA and EC series are perfect. And I want a button to reset quickly, so that it can be pressed again that much more quickly when spamming is needed.

I barely use the scroll wheel in game either because moving my index or middle finger compromises control of the mouse ever so slightly.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brigand253*
> 
> The loudness of a click or scroll wheel doesn't matter to me. I want to feel it; to get feedback from it. I prefer those clicks that offer some resistance, the Zowie ZA and EC series are perfect.


Totally this.


----------



## pogoogers

spent a minute scrolling through alibaba and i couldnt find anything similar to that shell. hard finding anything that isn't decked out in extra LEDs and buttons


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I received some samples this week, just thought I'd post a vid of the scroll wheel. The steps are tactile but its quite loud, so I'm interested to hear opinions. Personally, I don't mind it, although I prefer the smoother wheels because I rarely use the wheel in game.
> 
> https://youtu.be/0yRLd9RWbEk
> 
> Maybe you can tell what shell it uses from that vid ;D
> I'm taking some decent photos soon but will probably have to put them on fb only. I'm being a bit cagey on here since I don't know what I'm allowed to say, but I assume asking about the scroll wheel is ok.


Personally not a fan of that sound and the volume of it


----------



## Straszy

https://www.facebook.com/ninoxtech/photos/ms.c.eJxFzMEJADEMA8GOgmQ7nNR~;Ywcxcb7Dskx~_mbLLcikWDxho4AVCGSHUFLvBU1QDpnDDftMDrB~_RhhfY.bps.a.1317337648322950.1073741830.453629991360391/1317338994989482/?type=3&theater

BEAUTY

but this part of the shell need to be perfectly rounded


----------



## granitov

Is that the shaft bouncing against the shell or is it encoder itself? If the latter, haven't seen a TTC encoder sounding so loud - what type or color it is?


----------



## popups

Not my style of shape.


----------



## vanir1337

Looks perfect to me! Very promising. Eta?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *granitov*
> 
> Is that the shaft bouncing against the shell or is it encoder itself? If the latter, haven't seen a TTC encoder sounding so loud - what type or color it is?


Its the encoder, even if I open the shell and spin the wheel away from the shell and switch, it still makes that noise.

Its a high scroll force TTC wheel, has a grey plastic part in it. The force is 50 ± 20gf.cm, most TTC wheels are 14-26gf.cm, so its quite a lot higher than standard. Also it has 24 million scroll life (1M full rotations).


(The Omron switch in final versions is D2FC-F-K(50M), not the D2FC-F-7N(20M) in that photo)


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Looks perfect to me! Very promising. Eta?


Chinese new year starts on the 27th Jan and the factories are back open on 13th Feb, so at the very least its late march, but no guarantees at the moment.


----------



## ncck

Hmmm well at the least if this doesn't interest me I have zero problem supporting a Kickstarter to help you produce one with a custom shell and community favorite internals. I've seen kick-starts go pretty well for these things.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Hmmm well at the least if this doesn't interest me I have zero problem supporting a Kickstarter to help you produce one with a custom shell and community favorite internals. I've seen kick-starts go pretty well for these things.


Cool, thanks


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Chinese new year starts on the 27th Jan and the factories are back open on 13th Feb, so at the very least its late march, but no guarantees at the moment.


That's pretty good news actually, thought it's gonna be next year or so. Can't wait! Is there an estimated price (including shipping across Europe)?


----------



## m0uz

Factory is Motospeed, yes? Like FoonalMoose?

But, seriously, I like the look of it


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Factory is Motospeed, yes? Like FoonalMoose?
> 
> But, seriously, I like the look of it


Yeah. I must have looked at about 1000 OEM mice but it really was the best one to go for IMO. The 3360 sensor fits into mice that can use the 9800 sensor, and usually the mice that use that sensor come in extremely over-designed shells, pretty much any mouse with that sensor is considered "High end" and so must reflect that "high endedness" in its shell, by looking like optimus prime, and weighing 150g







So this was one of the very few that didn't do that, mostly because Motospeed fits all their mice with a sort of combo 3090/3360 lens slot, so all their designs are ready to take the 3360. (btw, I checked for lens rattle, and there is none, it could be because the lens posts are melted into the 3360 holes so it can't move (thats how its meant to be).



I have got a pretty cool QC company now though, they video the production and check anything I want at multiple stages (the beginning, the middle, and the end). So they'll be checking all sorts of things, like components used, coating quality, shell quality, buttons, cords, packaging and so on.


----------



## Gigantoad

I don't like resistant scroll wheels. Typically when I assign some action to the scroll wheel, it's to scroll-up and scroll-down. I don't really need individual notches, I just swish up and down and something happens. I also use mice for more than just gaming, and then the resistance becomes a chore.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> I don't like resistant scroll wheels. Typically when I assign some action to the scroll wheel, it's to scroll-up and scroll-down. I don't really need individual notches, I just swish up and down and something happens. I also use mice for more than just gaming, and then the resistance becomes a chore.


But this mouse is mainly meant for gaming mate. And in most *proper* games it's pretty important to have those notches seperated.


----------



## Gigantoad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> But this mouse is mainly meant for gaming mate. And in most *proper* games it's pretty important to have those notches seperated.


Yeah, just my opinion. Out of curiosity, what do people assign to scroll wheel that needs notches? Surely not changing weapons?


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Yeah, just my opinion. Out of curiosity, what do people assign to scroll wheel that needs notches? Surely not changing weapons?


Bhop, weapon change, throwing nades, selecting a specific weapon, etc. In CoD4 Promod I've used it for double weapon changing / reload interrupting, both were extremely important due to a bug in the game engine. And you couldn't do that without a nice and tactile scroll wheel (I've used a DeathAdder back then, was perfect for the job).


----------



## imdavidboss

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> Yeah, just my opinion. Out of curiosity, what do people assign to scroll wheel that needs notches? Surely not changing weapons?


I only use it in CS:GO for bunny hopping, mouse wheel down. In CS 1.6 before they nerfed it you could also bind mouse wheel up to crouch and kind of silent run with it.


----------



## frunction

People are actually going to do the bst adventure again?


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I have got a pretty cool QC company now though


So... not like FoonalMoose


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Hmmm well at the least if this doesn't interest me I have zero problem supporting a Kickstarter to help you produce one with a custom shell and community favorite internals. I've seen kick-starts go pretty well for these things.


PCBs for Microsoft mice would be easier (I assume).

The amount of time it would take to design a mouse shell that people like would probably make the mouse release in 2018-2019.


----------



## pogoogers

I like the shape a lot, the customization without software also has me pleasantly surprised.


----------



## wareya

Super strong/loud encoders make the physical wheel's axle itself break more easily if it ever gets damaged, like if you drop the mouse and it lands on the wheel or you have to open it up to clean it and bend the axle to pull it out of the encoder. Can you include a replacement wheel in the box with the mouse, bst?


----------



## pogoogers

Probably gonna be a bit more expensive for us with an extra mouse wheel in every box. would it be difficult to grab a new one on AliExpress


----------



## trism

Shape looks interesting, however I would instantly switch the encoder if the encoder used in the prototype is going to be the one in the production model.


----------



## qsxcv

please get rid of the sharp edge at the back


----------



## wareya

iirc he said he can't change the shape of the shell until he has capital again


----------



## bst

I know what you mean, but honestly it's not as pronounced as it might look. I've tried holding the mouse in lots of different ways, and I can't notice it at all, and I really tried to notice it







I'll try and take some better photos tomorrow to show it more clearly.


----------



## shaiaz

Please let me buy this already. It's been at least a day since I last bought a mouse


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> iirc he said he can't change the shape of the shell until he has capital again


Time for ghetto modding then:
https://www.google.be/search?q=sandpaper&client=firefox-b-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZkeauxM7RAhWEyRoKHSH7CnMQ_AUICCgB&biw=1920&bih=950


----------



## Brigand253

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I know what you mean, but honestly it's not as pronounced as it might look. I've tried holding the mouse in lots of different ways, and I can't notice it at all, and I really tried to notice it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try and take some better photos tomorrow to show it more clearly.


I don't think I'm going to notice it either. I looked at how I hold my ZA13 and my hand takes the shape seen at the back of the Venator. The ZA13 is also my daily driver so needless to say, but I'm excited to try a 3360 equipped mouse with a similar shape. ?


----------



## badben25

What are the sides like?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> What are the sides like?


From the front view the mouse looks like this \____/ and its 20mm high at its lowest point.
The sides are textured plastic.
Theres a few pics and videos on facebook.


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> From the front view the mouse looks like this \____/ and its 20mm high at its lowest point.
> The sides are textured plastic.
> Theres a few pics and videos on facebook.


Are there plans to do something about the textured plastic?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> Are there plans to do something about the textured plastic?


No plans to change them, but if the mouse is a success, but people want things changed, then it could be done.

The only downside I see with them is they could collect dirt, but they aren't uncomfortable, and they work quite well at making the mouse more grippy.


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> No plans to change them, but if the mouse is a success, but people want things changed, then it could be done.
> 
> The only downside I see with them is they could collect dirt, but they aren't uncomfortable, and they work quite well at making the mouse more grippy.


You should keep that in mind then. They look close to what the Cougar 250M has, some other older models from Cougar as well, and it's quite slippery after a little while. Only a few users with a very particular skin type might be able to use it.


----------



## m0uz

Slightly off topic but does anyone know what size of encoder the Aurora uses? Have [another] on the way and my experience with my last one's encoder was crap. All spongey and whatever.


----------



## imdavidboss

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> "if the mouse is a success..."


Out of curiosity, what would define the mouse as being a success? Certain amount of units sold? Certain amount of revenue or profit? Positive feedback from the OCN community? Wondering how you're measuring said success.


----------



## bst

I consider it quite a minor thing at the moment, since the shape of the mouse isn't slippery by nature, so its quite forgiving with its side materials if that makes sense. But that could change, depending on the feedback for this specific mouse.

But, it sort of works like this:

Cost of improvement / net profit on 1 mouse = how many EXTRA you have to sell in future to justify the improvement

So you have to ask: what is the projected increase of sales from the improvement?

Lets say the improvement causes 10 extra sales per month and the net profit is $10, and the cost of the improvement is $5000, then it will take 50 months to pay for it. But if it causes 100 extra sales then it takes just 5 months.

So I have to look at feedback and determine, how many people don't like "feature X"? If its high, then its more worth it.

The important thing to figure out is how many potential customers you have (product views for example), what % of them buy, and what % see "feature X" as a dealbreaker.

Also it depends if there is a successful kickstarter for other shapes. If there isn't, then its more tempting to spend profit on new shapes than it is to edit the Venator's shape, after all, as a company, wouldn't you rather have your own shape instead of an edited OEM shape?


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*


Quick request. Please don't use horrendous packaging like the Aurora came in. Like trying to navigate a Labyrinth.


----------



## Melan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Quick request. Please don't use horrendous packaging like the Aurora came in. Like trying to navigate a Labyrinth.


Gotta do some work if you want that mouse bro.


----------



## turnschuh

Hmm maybe a little late but what mwheel encoder was used in the aurora? I liked that. I also hate loud and too pronounced wheels.

I mean it was good enough to even use it for "next" and "previous weapon" function. No miss or ghost scrolls happened. It just worked.

So i dont understand how some people need the "extra pronounced" and stiff wheel for games.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Hmm maybe a little late but what mwheel encoder was used in the aurora? I liked that. I also hate loud and too pronounced wheels.
> 
> I mean it was good enough to even use it for "next" and "previous weapon" function. No miss or ghost scrolls happened. It just worked.
> 
> So i dont understand how some people need the "extra pronounced" and stiff wheel for games.


I didn't like the Aurora's scroll wheel tbh. Too loose for my taste. It's personal preference tho.


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> I didn't like the Aurora's scroll wheel tbh. Too loose for my taste.


Same. Changed encoder for ALPS.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> I didn't like the Aurora's scroll wheel tbh. Too loose for my taste. It's personal preference tho.


Yea, preference and a bit of variation between the mice i guess. Maybe mine is a bit stiffer or maybe the aurora wheel was a bad example.

But i admit i didnt really rely heavily on the wheel when i used it. Mostly used it to jump or in other games have only one action bind (bound?) to mwheel up/down.
(like mwheel up = use weapon 1 for example)


----------



## plath

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> I didn't like the Aurora's scroll wheel tbh. Too loose for my taste. It's personal preference tho.


Yeah I felt the steps in the scroll could've been more defined.


----------



## bst

I might be able to make the scroll wheel quieter by getting the factory to put some lube on it (like the Alps wheel has). Not sure what kind of lube it needs but I will look into it.


----------



## Alya

Will the middle click be stiffer on the new Ninox mouse? The Aurora's middle click feels unstable, like when I click it it feels like the wheel will break.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Will the middle click be stiffer on the new Ninox mouse? The Aurora's middle click feels unstable, like when I click it it feels like the wheel will break.


Sorry I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain better?

I've never used an Aurora where it feels like the wheel will break, same with the new mouse, so I'm not sure but maybe the guides that hold the wheel in place on your Aurora are a bit wider than usual, causing it to move around a bit more.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Sorry I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain better?
> 
> I've never used an Aurora where it feels like the wheel will break, same with the new mouse, so I'm not sure but maybe the guides that hold the wheel in place on your Aurora are a bit wider than usual, causing it to move around a bit more.


When I press in the middle click, it's a very "flimsy" plasticy feeling, it feels as if the wheel is going to fall into the shell when I press the middle click in, it also makes a crunch rather than a click like you would hear on the main buttons. I've heard of complaints that the middle click is stiff, but it's the exact opposite for me, it's incredibly soft with little tactility to it.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> When I press in the middle click, it's a very "flimsy" plasticy feeling, it feels as if the wheel is going to fall into the shell when I press the middle click in, it also makes a crunch rather than a click like you would hear on the main buttons. I've heard of complaints that the middle click is stiff, but it's the exact opposite for me, it's incredibly soft with little tactility to it.


Ok, thats not normal, so it won't be like that.

The new mouse is sort of medium stiffness, its not especially light or stiff. Although when you order 1000+ theres always some that come out lighter or stiffer than usual. Same with the wheel itself, its scrolls are rated at 50gf +-20 (30-70gf), so potentially you could buy two mice and one scroll wheel is 40gf easier to turn than the other. (the Alps wheel is 50+-30gf btw so even worse). But normally most will be in the middle and the higher/lower force ones will be rarer. TBH your Aurora sounds like the switch is bad, not only light, there shouldn't be a crunching sound


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> TBH your Aurora sounds like the switch is bad, not only light, there shouldn't be a crunching sound


Yeah that's what I thought, it works though...somehow...question is for how long, but considering the ETA for new Ninox is 2-3 months, I hope it works for that long. I love the Aurora's shape and the rubbery top, it's a good mouse all around with the exception of the cable being super thick...and the software, but I'm talking mostly physical aspect rather than technical aspect.

These graphs look a little unusual though, they remind me of Kinzu graphs.










Perhaps @uaokkkkkkkk, @wareya, or @qsxcv can key in and tell me why my graphs look like that.


----------



## bst

Idk, maybe negative accel from exceeding the PCS? What sort of movement were you making with the mouse, and was it fast?


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Idk, maybe negative accel from exceeding the PCS? What sort of movement were you making with the mouse, and was it fast?


I was moving around 4.2m/s maybe, since that's the fastest I can get my tiny arm to move when I try hard enough, I won't be anywhere near that speed in-game EVER but I was curious of how the graphs would've ended up looking in MouseTester when I did try to make it malfunction.


----------



## Bucake

around 4m/s sounds about right if it's the 3090, unless i remember incorrectly


----------



## wareya

what dpi


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> what dpi


The image is correct in it being 400 CPI.


----------



## wareya

is it running at a full 1000hz at the point where the first dip happens? (mousetester's graphing thing can delete dots for some reason)

anyways there's more than just the malfunctions going on here, it's also not polling correctly. even so, it's malfunctioning initially at 0.5m/s, which means either very bad surface compatibility or some problem in the mouse making the sensor or mcu behave wrong.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> is it running at a full 1000hz at the point where the first dip happens? (mousetester's graphing thing can delete dots for some reason)
> 
> anyways there's more than just the malfunctions going on here, it's also not polling correctly. even so, it's malfunctioning initially at 0.5m/s, which means either very bad surface compatibility or some problem in the mouse making the sensor or mcu behave wrong.


It's at the default of 1000Hz, I didn't save the graph but I was moving it pretty fast so I'd imagine it SHOULD be reporting at 1000Hz, mousepad is a Razer Gigantus, got the mouse NIB but I'm not actually getting any "spinning out" just weird graphs and inconsistent cursor feeling.

EDIT: Apparently default for the Aurora is 800 CPI (red) and 500Hz, but mine is 400 CPI (red) and 1000Hz. I'm confused now, don't really care though. Could've been resealed, got it for really cheap ($18) so whatever. I'm not getting the max tracking speed being 0.6m/s like some people were complaining about when the software bricked their mouse, so I'm just...confused...

EDIT2: The software unbricked it, graphs look "better" now.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> please get rid of the sharp edge at the back


Its more on the short side anyway though with 122x62x40mm, i personally would have preferred the 128x67x41mm one with separate buttons:



Anyway, the more important question is, what is being done about the FW, Holtek MCU is pretty much confirmed i guess, also last time i checked Motospeed/Tech was charging rather high prices.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Its more on the short side anyway though with 122x62x40mm, i personally would have preferred the 128x67x41mm one with separate buttons:


I don't think you would want that one, its pretty heavy and the sensor position is quite far back







Other than that it is nice though.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Anyway, the more important question is, what is being done about the FW, Holtek MCU is pretty much confirmed i guess, also last time i checked Motospeed/Tech was charging rather high prices.


The FW seems fine, its performing as well as I could have hoped. Not having any problems and no software to worry about. Its pretty much finished now, just got a couple of tweaks to make after CNY holiday is finished (feb 6th).


----------



## wareya

Did you test approximate tracking latency with mousecomparator?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Did you test approximate tracking latency with mousecomparator?


Yep, looks good (used the same method as here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/0_100), don't think I can post test results on here though as it might be seen as advertising. I think after the final FW update it will improve, but not sure if it'll be noticeable in that test, unless maybe if you do a lot and take the average.


----------



## shaiaz

I am just sitting here waiting for this to come out, might even go and try my aurora again


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> I am just sitting here waiting for this to come out, might even go and try my aurora again


As am I. Mr. British Summer Time needs to hurry his bum up. Or, rather, Feb 6th needs to arrive quicker.


----------



## shaiaz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> As am I. Mr. British Summer Time needs to hurry his bum up. Or, rather, Feb 6th needs to arrive quicker.


Release date feb 6th ?


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> Release date feb 6th ?


or is that just the end of Chinese new year?


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> Release date feb 6th ?


Sorry, my bad. Chinese NY ends on the 6th.


----------



## shaiaz

I'm throwing money at my screen already


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> I'm throwing money at my screen already


that feature has yet to be invented though


----------



## imdavidboss

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Its more on the short side anyway though with 122x62x40mm, i personally would have preferred the 128x67x41mm one with separate buttons:


I really like that shape, actually.


----------



## paers

Shape looks good overall but I have no grip on the type of textured plastic you're using. Then there's a bunch of gamer memes like that unnecessary out-of-place edge in the middle of the shell and a braided cord.


----------



## m0uz

I don't really know why some people are bothered about that ridge at the back. Your hand kinda makes that shape at your lower palm area, although maybe more round and not as angular. I do sometimes feel people nitpick a bit too much but that's just me. It's not like it's a G303.


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> - Can't do much about the textured sides, but IME the shape of the mouse is grippy enough so I don't really notice any issues.


Not sure but maybe that's because of your skin/hand type? Will probably be an issue for people with sweaty hands or the type of skin that gets a bit oily after a while.


----------



## Bucake

the sides
nooooooooooo


----------



## bst

When this mouse is finished, I'll have some prototype shells made for new shapes and people can vote for their favourite (and suggest tweaks etc). It won't take that long to make new shells.

So the purpose of this mouse is mostly as a vessel for the PCB/FW to be evaluated, because I can't make new shells without a kickstarter, and a kickstarter has much more chance of success if people already know the PCB/FW they'd be getting already works well. If the kickstarter is a success, all people will have to wait for is a mold to be made and the mice to be made, which takes about 2 months. If theres more funding then could make more shapes at the same time.


----------



## wareya

Or, if this mouse is somehow incredibly successful, you might not need a kickstarter. But that's a long shot, isn't it?


----------



## bst

The kickstarter can be started sooner than I'd know if this mouse is incredibly successful, so I'm not going to bother waiting to find out. The only thing I'm going to wait for is reviews on the FW that can be referenced.


----------



## Johan450

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> When this mouse is finished, I'll have some prototype shells made for new shapes and people can vote for their favourite (and suggest tweaks etc). It won't take that long to make new shells.
> 
> So the purpose of this mouse is mostly as a vessel for the PCB/FW to be evaluated, because I can't make new shells without a kickstarter, and a kickstarter has much more chance of success if people already know the PCB/FW they'd be getting already works well. If the kickstarter is a success, all people will have to wait for is a mold to be made and the mice to be made, which takes about 2 months. If theres more funding then could make more shapes at the same time.


LMO/mico clone next please


----------



## Alya

Boy, you didn't even include the KINZU? I'm disappointed.


----------



## Shwiqo6434

..


----------



## a_ak57

Be the true savior and do a G9 clone. People who adore stuff like the WMO or other normal shapes at least have somewhat similarly shaped choices with good sensors, but there's absolutely nothing to scratch the G9(x) itch other than the originals.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Well all but one of the shapes have a chance of being released in some form or another. Doesn't matter the entity.

The one shape with no chance? The Wingman.


----------



## equlix

I would insta buy a IE 3.0 shape. It's often imitated but never properly replicated. the only one to come even close is the rival 300. a propper 1.1a with side buttons would be good to.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Be the true savior and do a G9 clone. People who adore stuff like the WMO or other normal shapes at least have somewhat similarly shaped choices with good sensors, but there's absolutely nothing to scratch the G9(x) itch other than the originals.


People that are asking for g9 remake never mention which of the mouse's 3 shapes they have in mind.


----------



## a_ak57

I mean, the two actual grips are similar enough that if a company decided to make a clone of one of them I don't think anybody would really be that upset (though my vote would be for the precision grip). The gripless mouse is basically an entirely different beast though and a niche within a niche, so I assume people aren't talking about that unless they specify it.

Of course none of this matters anyway since nobody will ever make a version of any of the iterations.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I mean, the two actual grips are similar enough that if a company decided to make a clone of one of them I don't think anybody would really be that upset (though my vote would be for the precision grip).


Actually, there were three.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> The gripless mouse is basically an entirely different beast though and a niche within a niche, so I assume people aren't talking about that unless they specify it.


But that's the way g9 gained majority of its fame, iirc. There was a time when like 90% of korean starcrafters used gripless g9x.


----------



## lainx

A diamondback clone and a G518 clone would be lovely! G9 clone would also be nice.
Nowadays i feel most have the hump either placed wrong or it's too high. Neither G Pro nor G403 is satisfactory imo..

Edit: Did vote on the survey!

Man i miss the diamondback shape a lot... The buttons were fantastic, with their weird shape.


----------



## bst

Yeah I liked the diamondback too. Only thing I wasn't keen on were the side buttons.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

i like the diamondback too(i own way too many) but there is a still a chance it'll get a proper non-casual reboot from razer someday. a very very slim chance. it's still possible though.


----------



## Straszy

what about mini wmo / mini rival 300 ? ;/ something with size of ec2a


----------



## rove

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> I would insta buy a IE 3.0 shape. It's often imitated but never properly replicated. the only one to come even close is the rival 300. a propper 1.1a with side buttons would be good to.


this +1


----------



## pogoogers

Voted in the survey, cool that you're interested in our input.

Also, maybe it's just me but I found it a bit confusing understanding the shapes in text form
as in, }__) , /__\ , \__/ , etc
Maybe my brain totally failed on me, but on later possible surveys it would be cool if each option had an irl example or picture.

forgive me if im just being braindead. happens


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pogoogers*
> 
> Voted in the survey, cool that you're interested in our input.
> 
> Also, maybe it's just me but I found it a bit confusing understanding the shapes in text form
> as in, }__) , /__\ , \__/ , etc
> Maybe my brain totally failed on me, but on later possible surveys it would be cool if each option had an irl example or picture.
> 
> forgive me if im just being braindead. happens


Imagine you're looking at the mouse from the front or back. Those are the shapes you see.




\__/


----------



## plath

haha i had a diamondback too. died on me a little while after warranty ran out. still have it in a drawer though.

i voted too btw.


----------



## pr0l4nd

Admin deleted link to survey?


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pr0l4nd*
> 
> Admin deleted link to survey?


It seems like, yeah. Some rules here...


----------



## a_ak57

Is it really going to be necessary for one of us to post all his updates as a proxy? It's just pointless. And I never saw Jude's posts getting bombed when he'd come on here and BS everyone.









Well, to play along with this silliness, look what I stumbled upon when I was browsing facebook:

https://surveynuts.com/surveys/take?id=123582&c=2227441985HLPH


----------



## pogoogers

Good find!


----------



## imdavidboss

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Is it really going to be necessary for one of us to post all his updates as a proxy? It's just pointless. And I never saw Jude's posts getting bombed when he'd come on here and BS everyone.


Right? Almost seems vindictive. Granted, I don't know the rules but a survey isn't asking for money or anything.


----------



## pogoogers

Talking about a mod action usually leads to trouble. im no narc but u dorks r playing with fire ...


----------



## thecountof4

For my hands, the aurora has the perfect shape. BST, If you could make a new mouse with the same shell, similar weight , 3360, and better quality control I would gladly preorder 10 of them. Please XD


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thecountof4*
> 
> For my hands, the aurora has the perfect shape. BST, If you could make a new mouse with the same shell, similar weight , 3360, and better quality control I would gladly preorder 10 of them. Please XD


I want to, just need the funds! I would do it now if I could.

If I prove that the new mouse (Venator) has a good implementation of the 3360, and everything goes smoothly, then I think people will feel more confident in helping to fund new shapes. so it could happen, just depends if theres enough interest to generate the funds needed.

The 3360 won't fit in the old Aurora, so a new shell has to be made (the old shell could be altered but in the end it wouldn't be much cheaper, so its not worth it imo).


----------



## shaiaz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I want to, just need the funds! I would do it now if I could.
> 
> If I prove that the new mouse (Venator) has a good implementation of the 3360, and everything goes smoothly, then I think people will feel more confident in helping to fund new shapes. so it could happen, just depends if theres enough interest to generate the funds needed.
> 
> The 3360 won't fit in the old Aurora, so a new shell has to be made (the old shell could be altered but in the end it wouldn't be much cheaper, so its not worth it imo).


idk if I'd use it but I would probably buy it anyway..







Also updates on the Venator ? I'm impatient !!


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> Also updates on the Venator ? I'm impatient !!


Second'd


----------



## bst

I think I have to be brief with my descriptions of what is being done when I post on OCN, because I did write out a complete list and I get the feeling it'll be deleted for advertising.

So I'll just say:
- They only just got back from the CNY holiday and are still kind of "warming up" so not much has been done in the last 3 days, except clarifying what I want done.
- There is a minor mold adjustment I have asked for, it just helps the scroll wheel to stay more stable (basically just a tiny thickening of some plastic).
- There are minor FW changes to be made: rest mode disable, some RGB tweaks, deleting a couple of bits I don't want. All easy and minor.
- All the packaging, labels, instruction manuals etc have been done, and a new website is almost done (all by me







I have to get to design something myself!)
- There are some components which need changing for the final version, nothing difficult (things like generic USB plug etc).

The only problem I expect is with the cord, but to be fair they have been good at sourcing parts I want so far. But I'm just remembering the last factory and their total refusal to change the cord. Hopefully it'll be better this time. The problem is I don't know how to circumvent it... I don't know where I can get cords made, or why some factories are so hell bent on using a foil shield instead of the spiral wrap Oo rubber isn't a problem, its just the internal shielding. But like I say hopefully they'll come through with a decent cord.

Oh and I'm only allowed one shell colour because my order is so small







So I was going to go with UV Matte white (like in the photos), because theres so many black mice out there and most of the white ones are glossy, so I thought its nice to have something a bit different. (thats not to say I won't do black in the future, its just for the first order).


----------



## popups

I heard that factories have very few options for cables. I don't know why... Maybe it's the way they manufacture the cables in huge rolls on semi-automated machines. Maybe you could contract various cabling places to see if you can get a specific cable.


----------



## bst

Yeah its something like that. Probably the only people that can supply it (cost effectively) are other factories. But yeah maybe a cord manufacturer could do it, or at least get it part of the way there and the mouse factory finishes it off. I'll try anyway, haven't really got into talking about the cable yet, I'm waiting for the FW to be finished (better to focus on one thing at a time with factories).


----------



## shaiaz

Glad to get some updates







Looks like you're really trying make it better, unlike some others


----------



## Argowashi

I'd buy this mouse purely out of supporting your endeavor. It's probably been mentioned before at some point in the thread but when are you expecting sales to open up?


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Argowashi*
> 
> I'd buy this mouse purely out of supporting your endeavor. It's probably been mentioned before at some point in the thread but when are you expecting sales to open up?


Pretty sure March or April was mentioned at some point


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Pretty sure March or April was mentioned at some point


Probably the best thing I can say is it'll be before the end of April. I don't see it taking any longer than that, but at the moment I don't know if it'll be early, mid or late april. I think late March is possible because its a small order, but its very optimistic. The moment I place the order I will have a much better idea though.


----------



## a_ak57

How many microseconds of code do you think you'll be able to shave off?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> How many microseconds of code do you think you'll be able to shave off?


----------



## shaiaz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*


I'll take this as "More than finalmouse"


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> I'll take this as "More than finalmouse"


Its more like, "I know where that's from, and I'm not getting involved"


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I heard that factories have very few options for cables. I don't know why... Maybe it's the way they manufacture the cables in huge rolls on semi-automated machines. Maybe you could contract various cabling places to see if you can get a specific cable.


I had a long conversation about cords with the factory a couple of days ago. In the end I had to send them a mouse which had the kind of cord I wanted. Today they confirmed they can do it, which I'm pleasantly surprised about


----------



## dakuzo

oh interesting, which mouse did you send them?


----------



## m0uz

They say they can do it, but how well they replicate it is yet to be discovered


----------



## bst

I sent them a G403, because they know the brand. Its one of those things where if I say a different brand, they don't really trust it. But when its Logitech, they take it more seriously.

Its not like they are making a cord from scratch and copying what I sent them, they just wanted to be sure about what I was asking, so they could ask their cable suppliers.

The main thing that makes a cord stiff or flexible is the shield, the foil shields are what everyone hates, they make the cord rigid, because they can't stretch when you try and bend them. It wouldn't be such a big deal if the foil shield was more loose, but they're always vacuum packed against the wires inside.

The spiral wrap shield uses criss-crosses of copper wire, so it can move around more freely inside the cord. It doesn't sound like much but it makes a big difference, all of the flexible cables on mice I've seen use spiral wrap, and all the rigid cables use foil. I don't think I've ever seen a flexible foil cable or a rigid spiral wrap cable.

Heres some photos to show the difference. You can see theres not much that goes into it, they're practically the same thing aside from the shield:

Foil wrap shield:


Spiral wrap shield:


----------



## skajohyros

On the g403 it's the braiding that makes it stiff, not so much the shielding.


----------



## wareya

Nicest cable I've seen is the abyssus v2's but I don't think it's very sturdy.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skajohyros*
> 
> On the g403 it's the braiding that makes it stiff, not so much the shielding.


But if it had foil shielding, it would be a lot less flexible. I don't really find the G403s cable to be that stiff though, its more like its bulky, but its easy to bend it, unlike a lot of other braided mice.


----------



## popups

The jacket could be made of different material to change how easy it bends.

I wouldn't mind something like a thinner Zowie cable. The Zowie cable is kind of rigid due to the copper wrap, but they are not as stiff as other cables. I don't want something heavy or stiff enough to push the mouse around when I let go.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Nicest cable I've seen is the abyssus v2's but I don't think it's very sturdy.


I prefer Zowie cables.

They're all over the place, but once you attach them to something, it's almost like having no cable at all. Logitech Mice their cables feel very stiff near the point where the cable exits the mouse (that is actually what tipped me over the edge when I was comparing the G Pro vs the Revel and made me use the Revel as a main).


----------



## qsxcv

there are spiral shields and braided shields

spiral ones have wires going in a single direction
braided ones have wires going in both directions

for spiral shields the wires dont need to overlap each other so they can be made thinner/lighter/more flexible

braided shields are better at shielding though.

afaik:
razer cables are spiral
recent logitech are braided (not sure about g102/203)
zowie = ??? i've seen a picture showing a spiral shield once i think


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> It's at the default of 1000Hz, I didn't save the graph but I was moving it pretty fast so I'd imagine it SHOULD be reporting at 1000Hz, mousepad is a Razer Gigantus, got the mouse NIB but I'm not actually getting any "spinning out" just weird graphs and inconsistent cursor feeling.
> 
> EDIT: Apparently default for the Aurora is 800 CPI (red) and 500Hz, but mine is 400 CPI (red) and 1000Hz. I'm confused now, don't really care though. Could've been resealed, got it for really cheap ($18) so whatever. I'm not getting the max tracking speed being 0.6m/s like some people were complaining about when the software bricked their mouse, so I'm just...confused...
> 
> EDIT2: The software unbricked it, graphs look "better" now.


Alya..I need your help.
I'm worried about buying this mouse.
Do you think this mouse is worth buying to give $ 45?
Are the malfunctions corrected when pressing m1 + m2 simultaneously?


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MFlow*
> 
> Alya..I need your help.
> I'm worried about buying this mouse.
> Do you think this mouse is worth buying to give $ 45?
> Are the malfunctions corrected when pressing m1 + m2 simultaneously?


Worth $45? No. I got mine for $18, for $18 I'm happy with it, but I wouldn't buy one if it was over $25 NIB.
High debounce delay fixed when pressing two buttons at once? No.

I didn't use mine long because the buttons were uneven (I know it can be fixed, but I'd rather just use my Kinzu at that point) and the scroll wheel started squeaking after a few days. I'd fix it, but I still have plenty of Kinzu V1s in perfect working order.


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Worth $45? No. I got mine for $18, for $18 I'm happy with it, but I wouldn't buy one if it was over $25 NIB.
> High debounce delay fixed when pressing two buttons at once? No.
> 
> I didn't use mine long because the buttons were uneven (I know it can be fixed, but I'd rather just use my Kinzu at that point) and the scroll wheel started squeaking after a few days. I'd fix it, but I still have plenty of Kinzu V1s in perfect working order.


Thanks Alya
You blocked my expenses.
I like the shape of aurora.
Venator? Let's wait for it


----------



## pindle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> But if it had foil shielding, it would be a lot less flexible. I don't really find the G403s cable to be that stiff though, its more like its bulky, but its easy to bend it, unlike a lot of other braided mice.


There's different kinds of braiding for the G403. I've got a 1632 and it's insanely stiff and unbendable, friend of mine has the same week, same cable. There's reports of a better, more flexible cable in the G403 thread and it had a newer week iirc (164x) so your view of the G403 cable may depend alot on your version of it.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pindle*
> 
> There's different kinds of braiding for the G403. I've got a 1632 and it's insanely stiff and unbendable, friend of mine has the same week, same cable. There's reports of a better, more flexible cable in the G403 thread and it had a newer week iirc (164x) so your view of the G403 cable may depend alot on your version of it.


I think that's just variations in production - there's many inputs in the factor of production and it can vary from batch to batch. I could be wrong of course - but I've had the same mouse bought from the same place and had them feel different while being exactly the same - aka one had a lighter click/easier scroll wheel and the other one had a stiffer one.. same serial


----------



## pindle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I think that's just variations in production - there's many inputs in the factor of production and it can vary from batch to batch. I could be wrong of course - but I've had the same mouse bought from the same place and had them feel different while being exactly the same - aka one had a lighter click/easier scroll wheel and the other one had a stiffer one.. same serial


As my cable is the stiffest I've ever seen in a mouse and another user was describing his cable comparing it to others I KNOW aren't even close to that stiff I'm fairly sure there is a difference, not just due to QC. Will search for the post when I have time (not home right now). Also I know the cause is 100% the braiding because after debraiding that hellish beast the cable was actually surprisingly flexible - literally a world of difference compared to before.

Could be that Logi uses different batches still instead of just improving the cable quality from one week on, haven't seen enough users report their experience with newer weeks (164x).


----------



## Bucake

well, we never got official word on what the deal with the g403 cables is, but my g403 cable is probably my favorite one, while other say theirs is among the worst they've tried.

it was obvious (from the g403 thread) that not all g403 come with the same cable. i'm sure it's not just production variance either - i think they either changed the cable deliberately, or for some other reason certain batches of cables were just extremely different from other batches.

my particular cable never pushes or pulls the mouse, which imo is top priority (flexibility i guess?)
2 is probably weight? and 3 material i guess, to have little friction on most surfaces


----------



## bst

I've looked into the cables a bit more now, qsxcv is right, there are 3 types. I thought braided shield was the same as spiral, but no.

I opened a Zowie cable up and tbh I don't like the look of the spiral shield, it has huge gaps in it. I don't think thats intentional... so, it makes me worry about how consistent the manufacturing of the spiral wraps will be. So, scratch the spiral shields... I don't trust them.

Braided can't really separate like that, and could be stronger. It seems it may be the sweet spot, its more like foil in its strength/consistency/shielding except its more flexible.

I'll see what the braided shield comes out like, hopefully it'll be a lot more flexible than foil. If the G403 is anything to go by, it should be (at least, my G403 was).

BTW the G403 cord has some weird plastic fibres, like tiny fibre optic cables, inside it. Not sure what they're for  Maybe strength, or bulking it out?


----------



## pindle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> well, we never got official word on what the deal with the g403 cables is, but my g403 cable is probably my favorite one, while other say theirs is among the worst they've tried.
> 
> it was obvious (from the g403 thread) that not all g403 come with the same cable. i'm sure it's not just production variance either - i think they either changed the cable deliberately, or for some other reason certain batches of cables were just extremely different from other batches.
> 
> my particular cable never pushes or pulls the mouse, which imo is top priority (flexibility i guess?)
> 2 is probably weight? and 3 material i guess, to have little friction on most surfaces


Nice coincidence, it was you, just found a couple of posts of us talking about it: http://www.overclock.net/t/1609899/new-logitech-g403-prodigy-107g-10g-wire-wireless/4290#post_25769254
There wasn't really much talk of it afterwards only some people like Alya sharing my thoughts, so seems you're the only one (that actually posted) thinking they have a newer, better cable. Really wonder about the newer weeks, if the changed cable is consistent.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I've looked into the cables a bit more now, qsxcv is right, there are 3 types. I thought braided shield was the same as spiral, but no.
> 
> I opened a Zowie cable up and tbh I don't like the look of the spiral shield, it has huge gaps in it. I don't think thats intentional... so, it makes me worry about how consistent the manufacturing of the spiral wraps will be. So, scratch the spiral shields... I don't trust them.
> 
> Braided can't really separate like that, and could be stronger. It seems it may be the sweet spot, its more like foil in its strength/consistency/shielding except its more flexible.
> 
> I'll see what the braided shield comes out like, hopefully it'll be a lot more flexible than foil. If the G403 is anything to go by, it should be (at least, my G403 was).
> 
> BTW the G403 cord has some weird plastic fibres, like tiny fibre optic cables, inside it. Not sure what they're for  Maybe strength, or bulking it out?


So congrats on being the 2nd guy who thinks the G403 cord is not total crap. Either it was changed, or we have completely different views on what a crappy cable is









Where are those fibres located btw, in the inside rubber wire or intertwined with the braiding? Cause while debraiding all I found was fluffy wire, no plastic in that. Didn't open the rubber cable though.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pindle*
> 
> So congrats on being the 2nd guy who thinks the G403 cord is not total crap. Either it was changed, or we have completely different views on what a crappy cable is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where are those fibres located btw, in the inside rubber wire or intertwined with the braiding? Cause while debraiding all I found was fluffy wire, no plastic in that. Didn't open the rubber cable though.


My G403 was a fairly recent purchase, so it could be that theres a new version. Although I'm not saying I like the cord, its too bulky and braided for me, f it was rubber I probably would though.

The cord was easy to wrap around my finger, its not like its the most flexible cord ever, but I could tell it didn't have a foil shield before opening it. Its a lot more flexible than many other mice I have.

The fibres were inside the rubber cord, with the wires, theres a lot of them in there (maybe 30-50), but they're thin as a human hair.


----------



## pindle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> My G403 was a fairly recent purchase, so it could be that theres a new version. Although I'm not saying I like the cord, its too bulky and braided for me, f it was rubber I probably would though.
> 
> The cord was easy to wrap around my finger, its not like its the most flexible cord ever, but I could tell it didn't have a foil shield before opening it. Its a lot more flexible than many other mice I have.
> 
> The fibres were inside the rubber cord, with the wires, theres a lot of them in there (maybe 30-50), but they're thin as a human hair.


Would be nice to know the week number.

Mine was also bulky braided, but was next to that also really, really stiff. Can you get rid of the packaging folds in the cable? Can you push your mouse forward with it even holding it 10cm away from the mouse? That's how rigid mine was, the cable would hardly bend and I could just use it to move my mouse where I wanted (aka super inflexible).

Hm good to know they reinforced the rubber cable. Can't really complain about that after debraiding, it's really very flexible now.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pindle*
> 
> Would be nice to know the week number.
> 
> Mine was also bulky braided, but was next to that also really, really stiff. Can you get rid of the packaging folds in the cable? Can you push your mouse forward with it even holding it 10cm away from the mouse? That's how rigid mine was, the cable would hardly bend and I could just use it to move my mouse where I wanted (aka super inflexible).
> 
> Hm good to know they reinforced the rubber cable. Can't really complain about that after debraiding, it's really very flexible now.


It wasn't stiff at all really, also it didn't have any packaging folds, it was wrapped around the outside of the mouse inner packaging, and it didn't hold that shape.

It wasn't like some mice where you can kind of hold the cable out in front of you and it stays horizontal







It just drooped down.

I don't have the mouse any more, so can't say what build date it was, sorry.


----------



## popups

I assume the threads are there to keep the cord from bending too much so that it won't split the jacket very easily or ruin the internal cables. I think some cables use metal threads to hold the shape you bend the cable to. I don't mind having a super stiff cable like that if it was very thin (probably without any shielding) because I could at least have consistency by bending it to a specific shape that allows me to swipe without much resistance. However, if I wanted a shielded cable I wouldn't want it to be super stiff like that because it's thicker and heavier.

There are many options for making a cable. There are a lot of different materials for the jacket, different types of shielding, twisted cables, etc. It's one of those things you need to either try a million different combinations or ask a very knowledgeable person a lot of questions. I don't think the Chinese mouse cable manufacture has the same materials or expertise a more prominent cable manufacture does.

If people want a cable that doesn't spring back strongly, you are gong to have to accept a higher possibility the cable breaks in the long term. If you want a thin jacket so the cable bends easier, you are going to have to accept the cable is going to split eventually.

The Zowie cable is copper twist shield, with (what I consider) a medium thick jacket. The consistency of the wrap varies due to the manufacture. You can imagine how every single thread of copper has to be exactly in the same place to make every cable behave the same. Some of my Zowie mice I had to put the cable in very hot water, then straighten it, other mice I didn't do that.


----------



## pindle

If I wasn't already convinced by Bucake's post yours would've done it, 100% sure we're talking about different cables. My packaging folds were still the same after 2 to 3 months of use.


----------



## qsxcv

bst: it is possible for a spiral shield to not really have gaps

e.g. try this

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00446/T1311-5-ND/5819482


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Firmware is finished now, will be making the first order very soon ^_^ heres some mousetester graphs. The first one showing the max speed (at least, as fast as I can move my arm), and the second one shows the mouse has no smoothing, and its motion data is synchronised to the USB polling rate. I will post more later, but thought these are the ones people will mostly want to see.






https://www.facebook.com/ninoxtech/posts/1351576481565733


----------



## vanir1337

Gooooood.


----------



## bst

Thanks c0dy


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> bst: it is possible for a spiral shield to not really have gaps
> 
> e.g. try this
> 
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00446/T1311-5-ND/5819482


Thanks for finding that, I had a search and found a thinner one, looks good:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00217/T1244-305-ND/4368767

TBH though, hopefully braided is nice and I won't have to worry about finding a decent spiral shield yet.

The thing I like about braided, is that even if it stretches out a bit, the gaps are never huge, and in a way it creates a faraday cage. So it seems a lot more robust/reliable than spiral. Even if a manufacturer says their spiral cord has no gaps, its something I'm a bit paranoid about now


----------



## popups

I probably would have liked this shape instead.


----------



## shaiaz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I probably would have liked this shape instead.


isn't that basically a g pro ?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shaiaz*
> 
> isn't that basically a g pro ?


I think it is a little flatter and straighter.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> bst: it is possible for a spiral shield to not really have gaps
> 
> e.g. try this
> 
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00446/T1311-5-ND/5819482
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for finding that, I had a search and found a thinner one, looks good:
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00217/T1244-305-ND/4368767
> 
> TBH though, hopefully braided is nice and I won't have to worry about finding a decent spiral shield yet.
> 
> The thing I like about braided, is that even if it stretches out a bit, the gaps are never huge, and in a way it creates a faraday cage. So it seems a lot more robust/reliable than spiral. Even if a manufacturer says their spiral cord has no gaps, its something I'm a bit paranoid about now
Click to expand...

the pvc one (your link) is actually a bit stiffer than the tpu one (my link). i've bought a small piece of both.

meanwhile people are using unshielded cables from ceesa fine

fyi: for the cable i linked, the tpu sheath is like melted onto the spiral shield, so the sheath has grooves which prevent the wires in the spiral shield from moving much. so you can be a little less paranoid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/ninoxtech/posts/1351576481565733


this looks good








(no mcu smoothing, timing appears to be stable and synchronized to usb)


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the pvc one (your link) is actually a bit stiffer than the tpu one (my link). i've bought a small piece of both.
> 
> meanwhile people are using unshielded cables from ceesa fine
> 
> fyi: for the cable i linked, the tpu sheath is like melted onto the spiral shield, so the sheath has grooves which prevent the wires in the spiral shield from moving much. so you can be a little less paranoid


Ah ok, interesting, thanks!

BTW I'm sure unshielded is fine for a lot of people, I never had any problems using unshielded mice either, but its the law, I can't sell the mice without shielding unless I want to be fined and have my products recalled







(they can be randomly tested by CE and FCC, probably a slim chance of that happening but its why I'm paranoid about it).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> this looks good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (no mcu smoothing, timing appears to be stable and synchronized to usb)


Thanks. I didn't think the factory would be able to do it, but they've surpassed my expectations


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I probably would have liked this shape instead.


Overall shape looks quite nice, not sure about that bit at the front sides, looks like it could be a bit sharp, and the buttons extending to the sides mean gripping the sides could interfere with the buttons.

But now I know the firmware performs well in the Venator, I think its easier to get funding for more shapes now. But I have to market it first so people know about it.

(Thing is, first I would have had to find where that mouse is made, then I would have to be lucky that they made the firmware well, and both of those things can be very difficult.)


----------



## popups

It looks like some OEM mouse from the typical manufacture. Not the best shape, but not so different than what people have used before.

I rather have a FK/WMO splice with side buttons. I don't know how many years I have to wait for that. I don't really feel like trying to get a 3D printed shell -- to much trial and error.


----------



## vanir1337

How is the middle mouse click force btw? Hope it's not hard to press in.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> How is the middle mouse click force btw? Hope it's not hard to press in.


Feels fine to me, its not hard to click, but also not too easy.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Feels fine to me, its not hard to click, but also not too easy.


Sounds good! Can't wait.









Which encoder will be used then? The tactile one? (pls pls pls)


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Sounds good! Can't wait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which encoder will be used then? The tactile one? (pls pls pls)


Its the tactile one


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Overall shape looks quite nice, not sure about that bit at the front sides, looks like it could be a bit sharp, and the buttons extending to the sides mean gripping the sides could interfere with the buttons.
> 
> But now I know the firmware performs well in the Venator, I think its easier to get funding for more shapes now. But I have to market it first so people know about it.
> 
> (Thing is, first I would have had to find where that mouse is made, then I would have to be lucky that they made the firmware well, and both of those things can be very difficult.)


You're 100% correct about the side buttons. My hands are long and thin. My thumb isn't very wide but the side buttons interfered with my thumb whenever I swiped the mouse.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Its the tactile one


Aw yisssssssssssss. Can't wait!


----------



## ncck

Rubber cable right? Sorry if it's been asked before too many pages


----------



## dakuzo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Rubber cable right? Sorry if it's been asked before too many pages


Considering bst sent in a g403 (wired) as a sample cable, it is somewhat unclear if the final cable will be rubber or braided


----------



## bst

The cable is rubber.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The cable is rubber.


Thanks for the info BST. Looking forward to more mouse testing!


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Thanks. I didn't think the factory would be able to do it, but they've surpassed my expectations


can you post here a slower speed swipe across the entire mousepad?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> can you post here a slower speed swipe across the entire mousepad?


What kind of speed?


----------



## Ickz

Tactile scroll wheel with a mmb that's easy to press? Hmm, sounds good. How are the switches for the side buttons? I'm hoping not super cheap like the ones in the revel - felt mushy and "hollow" instead of crisp and clicky like something similar to omrons.

I felt like I got burnt on your first mouse, but I'll give this one a try since it's through Amazon and returns are easy.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ickz*
> 
> Tactile scroll wheel with a mmb that's easy to press? Hmm, sounds good. How are the switches for the side buttons? I'm hoping not super cheap like the ones in the revel - felt mushy and "hollow" instead of crisp and clicky like something similar to omrons.
> 
> I felt like I got burnt on your first mouse, but I'll give this one a try since it's through Amazon and returns are easy.


I didn't say it was easy to click the MMB, its more like medium stiffness









Side button switches are ok, they're not the same as the Revel. They're the same as in the DM Pro S afaik. I'd prefer Omrons too, but unfortunately wasn't an option on this mouse.


----------



## Ickz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I didn't say it was easy to click the MMB, its more like medium stiffness
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Side button switches are ok, they're not the same as the Revel. They're the same as in the DM Pro S afaik. I'd prefer Omrons too, but unfortunately wasn't an option on this mouse.


As long as the mmb is easier to press than the gpro (the earlier ones, at least) and doesn't have that sorta "sticky" feeling when it's coming back up after a press, I'm happy.


----------



## Bitemarks and bloodstains

Thread cleaned.

Please no more talk about prices, availability, release dates, buying, selling etc.


----------



## Aliandro1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Thanks for finding that, I had a search and found a thinner one, looks good:
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00217/T1244-305-ND/4368767
> 
> TBH though, hopefully braided is nice and I won't have to worry about finding a decent spiral shield yet.
> 
> The thing I like about braided, is that even if it stretches out a bit, the gaps are never huge, and in a way it creates a faraday cage. So it seems a lot more robust/reliable than spiral. Even if a manufacturer says their spiral cord has no gaps, its something I'm a bit paranoid about now


why would u car about gaps, Many of us here use paracord cables with no shielding and there are no problems, surely if spiral is more flexible you would go for it irregardless of emf "radiation" and such which causes no problems and any can be fixed by a faraday magnet, similar to what zowie use.


----------



## pr0l4nd

Wow guys that i found on the internet:

Release date, prices and availability of the Venator: The release date for the Venator will be in the first half of April, priced at 39.99 GBP / 46.99 EUR / 49.99 USD. Available on Amazon UK, Europe and US.


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pr0l4nd*
> 
> Wow guys that i found on the internet:
> 
> Release date, prices and availability of the Venator: The release date for the Venator will be in the first half of April, priced at 39.99 GBP / 46.99 EUR / 49.99 USD. Available on Amazon UK, Europe and US.


Savage!


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Thread cleaned.
> 
> Please no more talk about prices, availability, release dates, buying, selling etc.


Are you going to clean up the finalmouse threads or just be hypocrites? Jude has done far more blatant advertising for a long time so he should probably be banned going by the punishments levied in this topic.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Are you going to clean up the finalmouse threads or just be hypocrites? Jude has done far more blatant advertising for a long time so he should probably be banned going by the punishments levied in this topic.


This please. This thread is by far the least offensive of the bunch. If you're going to clean it up, please clean up the other actual nasty threads when you're at it, otherwise you're actively rewarding the other threads. If this keeps up, I'm going to leave the forum entirely and post in LTT or something, it's just absurd.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pr0l4nd*
> 
> Wow guys that i found on the internet:
> 
> Release date, prices and availability of the Venator: The release date for the Venator will be in the first half of April, priced at 39.99 GBP / 46.99 EUR / 49.99 USD. Available on Amazon UK, Europe and US.


I too like the internet. That is a nice find. Thank you for sharing your "internet find".


----------



## Alya

lol @ the OCN double standard, wew laddy.
Quote:


> how much is it?


bst: you will have to check facebook
jude: $80 we think this is a fair price
Quote:


> when will it be available?


bst: sometime in april
jude: sometime in may (of 2016 of course)

bst's posts removed?: check
jude's posts removed?: nope


----------



## pr0l4nd

Can you explain against which rule was it? This ?
You ARE NOT allowed to use Overclock.net to:

Advertise or promote products and/or services that you or someone you know has an "interest" in. This includes linking to a personal website.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aliandro1d*
> 
> why would u car about gaps, Many of us here use paracord cables with no shielding and there are no problems, surely if spiral is more flexible you would go for it irregardless of emf "radiation" and such which causes no problems and any can be fixed by a faraday magnet, similar to what zowie use.


When a mouse has been designed, its put into an anechoic chamber where its EM levels are tested, if its low enough it gets the CE and FCC certifications. You need those certifications to sell the mice in Europe and the US. So if you choose a cable with potentially unreliable shielding, and the FCC/CE decide to inspect your products, you might find that even though you got the certification, all your cables have been made badly in mass production and you have to take all your products off the market and fix them, and also probably have to pay a fine.

So with foil shields, its pretty safe, they block the EM signals almost 100% and are easy to make, nothing really goes wrong with them. Spiral though can be made with big gaps, and you don't even know its happened, and those gaps (which were around 1cm every other cm) let through EM signals even with a ferrite bead. This is why I think the braided shield is the best combination of shielding and flexibility, because braided can't stretch too much, and it creates a natural faraday cage because its like a grid.


----------



## Melan

Also I'm certain that 99% of people here will still just put paracord cable on it regardless of what cable you have in the end.


----------



## bst

I did request an "advertisers pack" from OCN, as advised by an admin, but haven't heard back from them. So its a bit weird, you'd think they do it because they want people to buy the pack, but then you can't buy it anyway


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Also I'm certain that 99% of people here will still just put paracord cable on it regardless of what cable you have in the end.


I'm still rocking stock cables...


----------



## Melan

Congratulations, you're in that 1%.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Also I'm certain that 99% of people here will still just put paracord cable on it regardless of what cable you have in the end.


Probably, but personally I'd rather not have to use a paracord immediately, which is pretty much the case with the foil shields.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Congratulations, you're in that 1%.


I'm in that 1% too, FeelsBadMan.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Congratulations, you're in that 1%.


These days I only use the G100s, Zowie and Microsoft mice.

The G100s cable is fine since it is very thin. I wouldn't mind it being more flexible, enough not to push the 66g mouse.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Probably, but personally I'd rather not have to use a paracord immediately, which is pretty much the case with the foil shields.


I haven't used one yet. I can imagine it still provides that annoying feeling as it drags across the mouse pad.


----------



## Melan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> These days I only use the G100s, Zowie and Microsoft mice.
> 
> The G100s cable is fine since it is very thin. I wouldn't mind it being more flexible, enough not to push the 66g mouse.


I only liked stripped DA cable so far tbh. But I doubt that I'll be going for any wired mouse any time soon.


----------



## MFlow

I like g1, sensei shape and cable of Zowie mice.


----------



## ncck

Any comparisons on what shape is most similar to this one? I saw a few screenshots but couldn't get a clear idea of what the shape is like. I saw the youtube menu mode video - really like that implementation. Customization right from the mouse and no way to accidentally change a setting at the same time. Good job on that


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Any comparisons on what shape is most similar to this one? I saw a few screenshots but couldn't get a clear idea of what the shape is like. I saw the youtube menu mode video - really like that implementation. Customization right from the mouse and no way to accidentally change a setting at the same time. Good job on that


Thanks, I'm glad you like the menu mode







The shape is kind of like a mix of ZA12 and Abyssus v2. I don't own either of those mice though, just that it looks similar from photos.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Thanks, I'm glad you like the menu mode
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The shape is kind of like a mix of ZA12 and Abyssus v2. I don't own either of those mice though, just that it looks similar from photos.


The rear area is kind of like a ZA.

I never owned an Abyssus.


----------



## ncck

OK thanks that gives me an idea as I've used a za12. So basically a mid ambidex with a little hump on the rear.

Edit: weight is 80g too


----------



## vanir1337

I don't mind thick and heavy cables on my older mice because I can easily replace them with paracord cables. But when it comes to a brand new mouse with a pretty expensive price tag (at least in my country it deffo won't stop under 75-80$) it actually is a problem. Even with a bungee it's a pain in the butt.
Wrong thread lol, wanted to post it to the Kone Pure 2017 thread.


----------



## ncck

I'm actually just going to wait for this mouse. I've been flinging between many but I'll just use the fk1 until this releases - seems to hit every 'requirement' and supporting a community member who can hopefully/eventually make his own mold would be great. Good luck bst! You've got my support.


----------



## dbzane1

Microsoft 1.1a is the best mouse. It didn't have all these fancy features like dpi etc. That's just good and practical optical mouse, I loved it. But now I cannot find this mouse on sale... I use Steelseries Sensei, not bad as well.


----------



## drewno

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dbzane1*
> 
> I use Steelseries Sensei, not bad as well.


That's rather disqualifies the reliablity of your opinion here


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I'm actually just going to wait for this mouse. I've been flinging between many but I'll just use the fk1 until this releases - seems to hit every 'requirement' and supporting a community member who can hopefully/eventually make his own mold would be great. Good luck bst! You've got my support.


Thanks, thats nice to hear


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> OK thanks that gives me an idea as I've used a za12. So basically a mid ambidex with a little hump on the rear.
> 
> Edit: weight is 80g too


I remember... It looks like a CM Mastermouse S.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I remember... It looks like a CM Mastermouse S.


Yeah, that looks pretty similar, slightly different dimensions though, Venator is 122(L) x 62(W) x 40(H) mm


----------



## dbzane1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drewno*
> 
> That's rather disqualifies the reliablity of your opinion here


why?)


----------



## drewno

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dbzane1*
> 
> why?)


sensei has got a bad sensor and it's highly overpriced. You can get dm1 pro, dm1 pro S or nixeus revel with the same shell but much better sensor and lower price.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drewno*
> 
> That's rather disqualifies the reliablity of your opinion here


And also noone cares about it, because this thread is not about dropping random generic opinions about mice tbh...


----------



## gene-z

What's the facebook profile to look at this mouse?


----------



## c0dy

https://www.facebook.com/ninoxtech/?fref=ts


----------



## dbzane1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drewno*
> 
> sensei has got a bad sensor and it's highly overpriced. You can get dm1 pro, dm1 pro S or nixeus revel with the same shell but much better sensor and lower price.


Sure, I agree, I overpaid for the brand, but the first models of Sensei didn't have problems with the sensor. I bought it in 2012, and the mouse is still working without problems.


----------



## James N

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dbzane1*
> 
> Sure, I agree, I overpaid for the brand, but the first models of Sensei didn't have problems with the sensor. I bought it in 2012, and the mouse is still working without problems.


You misunderstood, there was no problem with the sensor. It works as intended. It is just that the sensor isn't good in general.

In the end , the only important thing is , if it works for you. If you say you are pleased with the performance and that it is good enough, who are we to say otherwise.


----------



## dbzane1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *James N*
> 
> You misunderstood, there was no problem with the sensor. It works as intended. It is just that the sensor isn't good in general.
> 
> In the end , the only important thing is , if it works for you. If you say you are pleased with the performance and that it is good enough, who are we to say otherwise.


Yeah, dude. for me it's good. Opinions differ


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dbzane1*
> 
> Yeah, dude. for me it's good. Opinions differ


What opinions are you talking about dude? The Sensei's sensor is inferior to any proper modern optical sensor out there because of the SRAV that is always present no matter what. Read before posting and stop with the off-topic already.


----------



## wareya

If you use a hard pad the sensei's SRAV is tolerable. Or if you've used it on the same surface and sensitivity for several years and just "know". It's still worse, but bad SRAV can stop being a problem as long as the motion:response function is monotonic.


----------



## t3ram

When will this mouse be released and what will be the price?
Can i already preorder it?


----------



## shaiaz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t3ram*
> 
> When will this mouse be released and what will be the price?
> Can i already preorder it?


"Release date, prices and availability of the Venator: The release date for the Venator will be in the first half of April, priced at 39.99 GBP / 46.99 EUR / 49.99 USD. Available on Amazon UK, Europe and US."


----------



## gene-z

I'm probably going to grab this or the new CM Mastermouse S. The only thing with this mouse, the tail of it looks really funky. It looks like it curves into a straight edge. Weird shell design choice, IMO.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gene-z*
> 
> I'm probably going to grab this or the new CM Mastermouse S. The only thing with this mouse, the tail of it looks really funky. It looks like it curves into a straight edge. Weird shell design choice, IMO.


He said he didn't have any other options. But if the product sells well eventually in the future he may be able to make his own mold


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> He said he didn't have any other options. But if the product sells well eventually in the future he may be able to make his own mold


Yep, this shell takes the 3360 sensor, most nice shapes are set up for the 3050 etc.

I don't think anyone will have a problem with that rear edge though, it just looks pronounced in photos, in reality when you're holding the mouse, it can't even be felt. Its just one of those things that looks weird in photos, when it catches the light.


----------



## Bucake

yeah i think very few people actually have a part of their palm placed on the center of the back a mouse. one in 10k maybe, like that old grandpa who doesn't understand the way the world works anymore. Elrick?









anyway, as much as i'd like to support ninox, the texture looks like it's going to make me pass :-/


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> yeah i think very few people actually have a part of their palm placed on the center of the back a mouse. one in 10k maybe, like that old grandpa who doesn't understand the way the world works anymore. Elrick?


It might bother me.

I am not buying one because I like low and wide mice with straight sides.


----------



## James N

I am really hyped for this one, can't wait. So i guess 4 more weeks till it releases.

The best i have ever aimed was with the Zowie ZA12 but i like the feel of the 3360 more.Since this mouse looks like it would feel somewhat similar to the ZA series, this will be an instant buy for me.


----------



## gene-z

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *James N*
> 
> I am really hyped for this one, can't wait. So i guess 4 more weeks till it releases.
> 
> The best i have ever aimed was with the Zowie ZA12 but i like the feel of the 3360 more.Since this mouse looks like it would feel somewhat similar to the ZA series, this will be an instant buy for me.


Isn't ZA hump in the back? This hump looks more centered to me.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gene-z*
> 
> Isn't ZA hump in the back? This hump looks more centered to me.


The hump is at the back


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The hump is at the back


At least the front appears to be taller than the ZA, which is an improvement.

I don't think I will like how the sides are. I bought the ZA13 because I know it will be smaller and that would allow me to shape the sides to fit me better (you might be able to see that in the picture below).


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> At least the front appears to be taller than the ZA, which is an improvement.
> 
> I don't think I will like how the sides are. I bought the ZA13 because I know it will be smaller and that would allow me to shape the sides to fit me better (you might be able to see that in the picture below).


TBH you'd probably prefer the custom mold thats being worked on atm, its got the kind of shape you're always talking about









Not that I think you'll ever be satisfied until you make your own personal mold, but maybe it can be in the 90% range?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> TBH you'd probably prefer the custom mold thats being worked on atm, its got the kind of shape you're always talking about
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not that I think you'll ever be satisfied until you make your own personal mold, but maybe it can be in the 90% range?


The WMO is a nice shape. I would only make a few dimensional changes or slight angle changes. I tried to make the FK closer to the WMO with some tape, that worked well for the buttons and the sides.



It's not hard to make a mouse I would be fine with using without modification. Most mice don't fit that because they are designed by people who don't play FPS games (or do so very casually) and want to make their products stand out.

It's easy to design a mouse with: flat/straight sides, a rear that fills your palm, an arch that bends naturally, a front height that is tall enough to make pressing the buttons faster and gives room for your two fingers on the side, main buttons that are flat/level so you are pressing straight down rather than at an angle, a scroll wheel that is far enough forward that your middle finger can be used without causing pain, side buttons that sit right above your thumb so you can roll upwards to activate them without changing your grip and mouse feet that don't influence the direction of glide.

A lot of archaic non gamer mice have much better shapes than the "gaming" mice that are supposed to make playing games easier. Modern gaming mice shapes tend to sell more. However, I think they went so far that direction that there is opportunity for a small company to make a tool/peripheral with a lot of the stuff I mentioned above and a large focus on the nuances of performance that almost every company ignores.

It took me a while to figure out what exactly I like a mouse to have in order to make playing a better experience for FPS games. I had to use a bunch of different mice side by side for a long time and think about the little details. Even with all those hours played and mice used, I don't think I know what a claw user would want/need.

I don't think a mouse company would hire a bunch of people to conduct a focus group and long term study just to design a shape. Usually they rely on general consumer feedback. However, those consumers don't know exactly what they want/need, they usually will end up saying they want something shaped like the < insert name here >. The Logitech Pro was shaped like their previous mice, but the nuances didn't really get carried over, so the Pro didn't satisfy some people's expectations.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The WMO is a nice shape. I would only make a few dimensional changes or slight angle changes. I tried to make the FK closer to the WMO with some tape, that worked well for the buttons and the sides.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not hard to make a mouse I would be fine with using without modification. Most mice don't fit that because they are designed by people who don't play FPS games (or do so very casually) and want to make their products stand out.
> 
> It's easy to design a mouse with: flat/straight sides, a rear that fills your palm, an arch that bends naturally, a front height that is tall enough to make pressing the buttons faster and gives room for your two fingers on the side, main buttons that are flat/level so you are pressing straight down rather than at an angle, a scroll wheel that is far enough forward that your middle finger can be used without causing pain, side buttons that sit right above your thumb so you can roll upwards to activate them without changing your grip and mouse feet that don't influence the direction of glide.
> 
> A lot of archaic non gamer mice have much better shapes than the "gaming" mice that are supposed to make playing games easier. Modern gaming mice shapes tend to sell more. However, I think they went so far that direction that there is opportunity for a small company to make a tool/peripheral with a lot of the stuff I mentioned above and a large focus on the nuances of performance that almost every company ignores.
> 
> It took me a while to figure out what exactly I like a mouse to have in order to make playing a better experience for FPS games. I had to use a bunch of different mice side by side for a long time and think about the little details. Even with all those hours played and mice used, I don't think I know what a claw user would want/need.
> 
> I don't think a mouse company would hire a bunch of people to conduct a focus group and long term study just to design a shape. Usually they rely on general consumer feedback. However, those consumers don't know exactly what they want/need, they usually will end up saying they want something shaped like the < insert name here >. The Logitech Pro was shaped like their previous mice, but the nuances didn't really get carried over, so the Pro didn't satisfy some people's expectations.


Can't disagree with any of that!


----------



## shaiaz

I'm frantically swapping between a few mice and I 'm just waiting for this one to come out and be perfect for me


----------



## Mejk

Guessing this won't be available in Europe for a couple of months. So i'll just look at something else.


----------



## t3ram

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mejk*
> 
> Guessing this won't be available in Europe for a couple of months. So i'll just look at something else.


Why not available?


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mejk*
> 
> Guessing this won't be available in Europe for a couple of months. So i'll just look at something else.


Where's the guess coming from?


----------



## Mejk

Just my own guess, since most of these mice are first released in US


----------



## m0uz

bst is British. It'll probably be released on Amazon UK/US round the same time. Anyone from Europe will probably need to buy from Amazon UK. Better hurry up before we leave the EU


----------



## a_ak57

Well, this is what was posted on the facebook page at the end of February:

Quote:


> Release date, prices and availability of the Venator: The release date for the Venator will be in the first half of April, priced at 39.99 GBP / 46.99 EUR / 49.99 USD. Available on Amazon UK, Europe and US.


So looks like it'll be available in all three of the stores at release.


----------



## bst

Pretty sure I'm not allowed to talk about release dates etc on here, but I will be posting an update on facebook soon, where I'll clarify things about different countries.


----------



## ncck

Will this mouse use fancy mouse skates like the aurora?


----------



## bst

The mouse skates are large, so not like the Aurora where they were too small to fit anything else. You can see them on facebook.


----------



## t3ram

Has the mouse only left side buttons or on both sides?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t3ram*
> 
> Has the mouse only left side buttons or on both sides?


Side buttons are on the left side only.


----------



## Bucake

as it should be


----------



## James N

I seriously can't wait, my birthday is in april. So this will be a perfect gift to myself.


----------



## end0rphine

I seriously can't wait, I have a mouse addiction. So this will be a perfect fuel to my collection.


----------



## James N

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> I seriously can't wait, I have a mouse addiction. So this will be a perfect fuel to my collection.


I think 90% of everyone in this forum suffers from the same disease.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Unfortunately the release date of the Venator has been delayed until late April, due to delays in finishing the cable. I'm sorry to everyone who was expecting it earlier. There shouldn't be any further delays, since everything is finished now, but will keep updating on the progress.


https://www.facebook.com/ninoxtech/posts/1385817281474986


----------



## m0uz

Ooh! Another FoonalMoose, have we here?

Pfft! Who am I kidding?!


----------



## loki993

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *James N*
> 
> I seriously can't wait, my birthday is in april. So this will be a perfect gift to myself.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> I seriously can't wait, I have a mouse addiction. So this will be a perfect fuel to my collection.


you should both better get used to waiting.

Fool me once.....


----------



## the1freeMan

Couple of questions: why didn't you use the v16 shell?






3:43 for sensor position. ("video url at current time" seems broken)

Mousetester plots look good. You confirm that's a Holtek mcu, without smoothing or timing issues?


----------



## t3ram

there a 100 options with the same shape revel ,dm1 pro s ,red square, newskil renshi...


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t3ram*
> 
> there a 100 options with the same shape revel ,dm1 pro s ,red square, newskil renshi...


Yes that's why they sell in the first place.
They all seem to be flawed in one way or another.


----------



## munchzilla

something called ninox astrum was just teased on facebook, no idea what it could be though.

can't find anything on here. not sure if mouse.


----------



## t3ram

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *munchzilla*
> 
> something called ninox astrum was just teased on facebook, no idea what it could be though.
> 
> can't find anything on here. not sure if mouse.


I doubt it's a mouse, maybe a mousepad


----------



## munchzilla

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t3ram*
> 
> I doubt it's a mouse, maybe a mousepad


would make more sense! hope it's not a re-branded kb...


----------



## manduar

Regarding Ninox Astrum


----------



## m0uz

Hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggg


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

oh, is that a take on the "just sell the pcb and put it in something" concept?


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*


omg


----------



## Menthalion

Subbed


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> oh, is that a take on the "just sell the pcb and put it in something" concept?


No, you get all the parts in the box. Could also make CAD "templates" where you'd be able to make your own part designs and 3D print them (and share them with others).

Its still too early to talk about it unfortunately, though I should be able to make a thread about it on here when ready. I'll be able to show it and take suggestions then.


----------



## wonderboysam

Plz no pod mouse feet ? they've ruined the g203 for me


----------

