# What happened to big 'ole floorstanding speakers?



## Schmuckley

find some old good cabinets with busted cones and put whatever you want in them







(get aftermarket speakers)
or..build them!







you can do itt!


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## astrallite

Wife Acceptance Factor.

Some companies have resorted to side-mounted woofers due to lack of front baffle space.


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## duceanahalf

i have a set of late 90's Jensen speakers on my entertainment center. 38" tall, 17.5" wide almost a 12" deep. weigh about 60#s they are a 4 driver system using two mids, a tweeter and a 15" sub on each.

I run these off a 200w Onkyo stereo receiver (i previously had a mid 80s vintage Kenwood receiver for years but that died several years back).

I use these instead of the integrated speakers in my tv. they also provide the audio for my secondary computer.

I am currently looking to rebuilding the cabs into something more substantial and possibly slowly updating the drivers.

i also have a pair of cheap DJ style speakers running another pair of 15s with two horn mids and horn tweeters each. but they are not currently hooked up. Think i might scrap the box and go with a scoop style cab.


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## mdocod

What's your price range?

Classic wide-baffle speakers are still very much available, and you can also build your own if you want to really go "all out."

If you can afford these, they are still pretty much the defacto- go-to standard for large floor standing party speakers:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=304-028

These are inexpensive and might be what you are looking for: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=303-422

If you look carefully at either speaker there, you'll notice that if you turned them sideways and used the side baffle as the front, the dimensions aren't all that different from modern "narrow" speakers. As it turns out, modern skinny towers aren't as different from the classic floor standing boxes as you might think









If you'd like some ideas for a home brew floor standing unit throw me a budget and I'll see what I can come up with. Or as others have mentioned, if you can get some damaged/used classic floor standing speakers (hopefully with bad drivers but good boxes, then just upgrade the drivers, install internal bracing if possible, and build a proper modern X-over for them you'd really have something nice IMO.

Eric


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## Mygaffer

To my ear a lot of these modern speakers sound better. They may have thinner profiles but they are usually deeper. Cabinet design is very important to the overall sound of a speaker and these modern cabinets are very good for the most part. I have a pair of these:








CSW Tower II, which are about a foot wide and a foot and a half deep, just eyeballing them. They sound pretty good with a decent bass response although there are some much better speakers out there today.
I like to pair a sub with my speakers though and set the cutoff at 80Hz. Then I balance my sub and speaker levels so that the bass doesn't overpower but goes lower than just the tower speakers would have.


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## astrallite

Check out RBH speakers too if you want a giant box with a line of drivers...


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## astrallite

Some brands have bottom stands...my NHT Classic Fours are virtually impossible to knock over...


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## SlyFox

I heard the classic 4's when I was speaker shopping really liked them. At the time they were around $1500, looking around now they seem to be about $2000. For that price I'd rather get the classic 3's (bookshelf) and a rhythmic sub.


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## astrallite

Classic 3s ($798) + stands + a decent sub? Would be about $1.7k and probably be decor challenged, unless you get some of the high end stands and you'd be at 2k anyway.

And if you go Rythmik you'd have to get two subs to get any appreciable output. The cheapest sub they've, the F12 ($799), hits 10% THD at 31Hz @ 100db, which basically makes it a 90db sub. I have an F12 and home theater would be the last thing I'd use it for if it was purely stand-alone as it goes into pretty severe power compression above 90db. The Classic 4s have a pair of ported 10"s which will give far more output.


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## Greg121986

Sorry it's a bad pic, I took it from my work phone.

Harbeth Monitor 40.1 speakers in my old house. These are quite large, and they sound incredible.


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## gorb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *astrallite*
> 
> Classic 3s ($798) + stands + a decent sub? Would be about $1.7k and probably be decor challenged, unless you get some of the high end stands and you'd be at 2k anyway.
> And if you go Rythmik you'd have to get two subs to get any appreciable output. The cheapest sub they've, the F12 ($799), hits 10% THD at 31Hz @ 100db, which basically makes it a 90db sub. I have an F12 and home theater would be the last thing I'd use it for if it was purely stand-alone as it goes into pretty severe power compression above 90db. The Classic 4s have a pair of ported 10"s which will give far more output.


They have a cheaper sub now - the FV12.


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## Lombax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mdocod*
> 
> What's your price range?
> If you can afford these, they are still pretty much the defacto- go-to standard for large floor standing party speakers:
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=304-028
> 
> Eric


I might get the 12" version of those. Exactly what I was looking for, something that looks as badass as it sounds. And now I can say the bass is kicked in and the Vega's are pumpin! lol

Those RBH speakers were....interesting to say the least.


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## HardheadedMurphy

I suppose the trend of today is Big Sound, Small Package


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## Karvoshk

Hi Lombax,

I know what you mean about puny front speakers these days, here's why and some solutions:

The problem with the abscense of properly large speakers these days is mainly because of the craze with subwoofers (because of movies and 5.1 or more surround sound setups). Their are lots of good subwoofers made by brands like jl audio which do a fine job of reproducing the very low frequencies that the 2 big ol main speakers use to handle themselves. The problem with that is it leaves the poor old stereophile left with bugger all choice on properly large stereo speakers (I consider anything at or above 8inch large). Don't stress out though because even though they are rare they still exist and here are a couple of good ones as examples:

For affordable big speakers that actually have the big hard hitting bass that your craving for then I reckon the Cerwin Vega VE-12f's are great. It's rated by Cerwin Vega at being capable of handling 300w rms max (93db 1w/1m) and has a stated deep frequency response of 28hz-20khz. I've heard Cerwin Vega VE-8f's (running through a onkyo 805 amp) and the sound quality was so good (which I was not expecting) that i'm going to have a listen to the VE-12f's with some cash in my pocket in a few weeks!

If your a bit more of a hardcore audiophile then the KEF Q-900's still have fairly large 8 inch cones (It goes down to 32hz) and reasonable power rating and sensitivity of 200w rms (91db 2.83v/1m).

Hope that helps. I'm saving up at the moment for VE-12f's and an onkyo 809 or yamaha rx-2010 reciever because I'm sick of all the sub craze too. I'm going to be running the reciever into them bi-amped so I can drive them to their limit and avoid too much amplifier distortion









NB: From my experience with very large woofers, they don't seem to have very fast and articulate bass so I recommend avoiding any lower range speakers using them. I'm also VERY against horn tweeters because I have never heard a speaker with them that didn't sound harsh and tinny, ESPECIALLY when pushed so that rules out the whole XLS Cerwin Vega range for me. I have heard the CLS-12's and they didn't sound that great.

Regards,
Spencer


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## mdocod

Hello Karvoshk,

Passive speakers don't "got wattage."

Manufacture claims of frequency ranges without specifics about how the claim is arrived at are meaningless.

Having piles of thermal power handling is basically meaningless without more information. In the real world, any speaker that is not on a high pass filter is usually subject to mechanical limitations long before it is subject to thermal limitations. Boasting power handling ratings is silly bordering on pointless.

bi-amping has nothing to do with "pushing hard."

Woofer size is basically a non issue for accurate bass. The motor strength vs moving mass and rigidity are the important factors. There are many 15, 18, even 21" and larger drivers that can handle the transients of live musical instruments and reproduce them with all the intensity and slam you could ever hope for. I suspect you have been exposed to the likes of some sloppy 15" drivers and have a bad taste in your ears as a result. Sorry, don't spread misinformation based on one bad experience.

On that subject of misinformation, well made horn loaded compression drivers can be remarkably accurate and produce less distortion than almost any alternative at high listening levels. I'm sorry about your experience with cheap horn loaded tweeters but that experience should not be used to dismantle reality. Some of the finest speakers in the world are horn loaded configurations.

Eric


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## Lombax

I have two 15's in my car (Rockford Fosgate P1's), and even though I absolutely love the enormous sound as low as 28 hz, they dont go high enough. Looking at the XLS 12 vs XLS 15, the 12's low pass is 380 hz, while the 15s is 280hz.

Example: with my 2 15's in my car, the songs "The Motto" by Drake, almost the entire bass-line isnt on the subs. Those subs go up to 250hz.

Now, does anyone have experience with the Vega's XLS and VE series? Is the XLS worth the extra $100 each?


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## Karvoshk

Hi Eric

I agree with some of what you said because I was being a bit too general in my statements, this leaves me wide open for crticism but I didn't write total crap.

Point one: 'got wattage' ok i've worded it considerably better now, it didn't need to be taken completely literally but you have a fair point.

Point two: I agree with you here, unless the speakers have a +- 3db or less stated with the frequency response then they shouldn't be listed by the manufacturer although 28hz is hardly unbelievably low for a 12 inch woofer.

Point three: The thermal power handling is important, it isn't a completely accurate measure but I pretty much take it as the manufacturer saying once you've put the voice coils past this limit the voice coils will be bottoming out at mechanical xmax and the speakers will then overheat and fry themselves.

Point four: Can I not put a subsonic pass (high pass) on the woofer when I bi-amp it with a new reciever? If that's not possible I'll be really gutted!.

Point five: Absolutely! BI-amping by itself won't do anything UNLESS the single channel output of the reciever is considerably less than the speakers thermal rms rating limit, in this case you can drive the speakers much more cleanly when you are approaching the speakers rms limit (using a Bi-amp capable reciever). With my car audio experience I can tell you it's far better to overamp and go easy on the gain than under amp and push as hard but with high distortion. I also believe that with Bi-amping I can then run two different sets of crossovers for the woofer and the mid/high section (This is how the bi-amp speakers are usually split from the two terminals). If a onkyo 809 or yamaha rx 2010 can't do that PLEASE TELL ME !!!!!!

Point six: I'd love to hear 15 inch woofers and above which sound like what you are saying but even a focal 33v2 (13 inch) isn't really that clean at higher bass so this must be some crazy high end gear your talking about with amazingly strong voice-coils, ultra stiff spider and an incredibly lightweight and stiff cone. Get me one of those please! That does sound like audio nirvana!

Point seven: Yes my opinion on horn tweeters is bit biased because it is based on fairly mediocre equipment, but you can't tell me that cerwin vega tweeters are absolutely the best money can buy. I have heard the cls horns (it was about 2-3 years old) and I didn't think that they sounded anywhere near as soft and sweet as the VE's tweeters. That's just my opinion based on a single recent listening of 10 minutes on equipment that I don't know how it was calibrated so I realise I'm not comparing apples with apples here.

NB: I am fairly new to high end house audio but I have quite a few years using car audio. My current set up: (alpine 9965e dead-head, nakamichi PA-1500 amp powering focal 27v2 sub, JVC 6604 amp powering JBL power series components). I'm craving a JL audio 13w6v2 and some better components at some point but I'm upgrading my home audio first.

Lombax,

The XLS speakers have higher sensitivity so they will be a little bit louder but from what I've heard the VE's have superior sound quality. I reckon you should go for the VE's. The maximum frequency stated on your subs and the Cerwin Vega's is way above where they are useful, your 2 subs are probably rolling off fast after 50-60hz which from there to 100hz is pretty much most of the higher bass your sub is missing. You could get some good 6 1/2 inch components and cross them over at 60hz with a 24db slope with some equalizer reinforcement in the bass area to improve your systems bass response.

Regards
Spencer


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## mdocod

Hello Spencer,

Sorry I couldn't resist giving you a hard time









Coming from car audio you are probably accustomed to big amplification and tiny sealed boxes. The Tiny sealed box essentially acts as a damper on efficiency, resulting in the need for enormous amplification power to overcome. When woofers are loaded in large reflex enclosures, they maintain their sensitivity down to much lower frequencies. The result is that, they will generally run out of Xmax long before they run out of thermal power handling. I think you may be surprised to see how dramatic the effects are. Xmax limited power handling at 1/10th the thermal rating is not terribly uncommon.

Having plenty of clean power is always desirable, however, there is nothing inherently wrong with using a 10W amp to power a 1000W rated speaker, nor is there anything inherently wrong with using a 1000W amp to power a 10W rated speaker. It really boils down to what it is that the system is trying to accomplish and personal tastes.

The primary advantage to bi-amping, IMO, is the elimination of complex passive crossovers. Active x-overs are not effected by the massive variations in driver impedance through the listening range, and do not introducing phase/timing issues. When you set up a bi-amped system, it's important that you select amplifiers with matching gain structure. Hopefully the receivers you are interested in include the necessary information to properly select an separate amp. Personally If I were that serious, I would not buy a "receiver" but rather, a surround processor/pre-amp and then a series of dedicated power amplifiers. Perhaps bi-amping the 3 front mains (each channel would need a stereo amp), then just using an additional pair of stereo amps to power the 4 "surround" channels (no bi-amping there). Keep in mind that some speakers will not benefit from bi-amping unless the x-over point is properly selected and adjusted (amount of overlap), and in some cases, EQed. With many speakers, the passive x-over is tailored to correct for various dips and rises in driver efficiency and is actually used to "fix" issues with the drivers and the way they mate up, if you by-pass that and go active x-over and bi-amped, you are effectively eliminating the x-over contours that solved those problems and inserting "generic" roll offs. I suggest picking out a system with a calibrated mic and -good- EQ so you can solve these problems.

A 15" driver is always going to be limited to *relatively* low frequency ranges simply because of it's diameter. Off axis response of a 15" driver probably starts to fade somewhere in the 500-1000hz range (not sure exactly), and a 15" driver will (unless carefully dampened) have an on-axis peak that is pretty nasty around 1000-1500hz. The use of a 15" driver above ~500-1000hz gets tricky, through many implementations do use them up to 1K and well beyond, some more successfully than others (well designed/dampened 15" drivers in on-axis applications can be used to ~2-3K pretty effectively). As far as large drivers go that can sound good. Pro audio drivers from JBL, B&C, and RCF generally come very highly regarded and are commonly used in studio reference applications ( I'll take 2 of these when I win the lotto: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-689 ). Though there are many well regarded pro drivers from less pricey brands that can deliver startlingly hair raising impact and accuracy.

I haven't heard cerwin vega horns so really can't comment (or if I have heard them, I don't recall). Decent compression drivers seem to start around $40-50, many popular models in that price range from Selenium are popular in the DIY community. Like anything in this world, you can always throw more money at the problem ( http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-410 )... If you've ever heard a really high end JBL sound reinforcement rig then you'd get a chance to hear a large format driver and horn that sound every bit as non-fatiguing or better than most high end "hifi" stuff.

Regards,
Eric


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## Karvoshk

Thanks for the info Eric,

I've bought a Yamaha rx-2700 for the job yesterday, will be a few weeks away till everything is complete and I can try it all out. It's good to know you can buy some half decent tweeter drivers without breaking the bank that shows it's the manufacturers fault for putting crappy horn tweeters in their speakers to save on material costs. I would have thought you wouldn't really use a 15' woofer (speaker not sub i'm talking) at anything over 150-200hz, by then I would have thought you'd be crossing over to the midrange speaker by then so using them for higher frequencies must be high end commercial use stuff. Anyway that clears up what you were saying quite a bit, I now get where you were coming from


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## Biscuits_N_Gravy

I grabbed a used set of Klipsch KLF-10's off CL a few years ago. They are awesome. Very clear sound, and deep bass when needed. Also very efficient.

They were in new condition. Looked like they had just been taken out of there packaging. Snagged them for $190. I was thinking of going with new speakers, until I found these.

I am still looking for the center channel from this series. Goes for around $200 on Ebay.



http://www.klipsch.com/klf-10


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## Wildcard36qs

Yea I still enjoy my cheapy Athena F2.2s Great sound coming out of them alone, then I added my SVS sub and then...I'll never upgrade. LOL


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## Remonster

http://www.hometheater.com/images/tad%20multi.jpg?1282071768

This is Japan's idea of a floorstander, if they're still building huge speakers you can bet plenty of other people are, too.

That's the TAD Reference One, by the way. $60,000/pair.

http://www.pltv.ru/upload_img/06-800D-Image_l2_w817_h328.jpg

Bowers and Wilkins' 800 is another example of a huge floorstander that's currently being made.

The obsession with subwoofers is partly because of WAF as mentioned but it's also because they can sound better. You want a sub to be in the corner(s) of a room, but your main speakers should be at the sides of your video screen (unless we're talking about a pure audio system) and a few feet out, away from the walls. Having a separate subwoofer allows you to put it where the bass will sound best while having the main speakers in locations that enable a proper soundstage.

For me, it depends on the intended use. For home theater, I've got to have a giant sub but for music playback I prefer a true 2 channel system.


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## tsm106

I blame it on the home theater boom. The good ole days of stereo... big badarse floor speakers.


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## Wayne Boogie

mdocod said:


> What's your price range?
> 
> Classic wide-baffle speakers are still very much available, and you can also build your own if you want to really go "all out."
> 
> If you can afford these, they are still pretty much the defacto- go-to standard for large floor standing party speakers:
> "Cerwin-Vega XLS-15 15" 3-Way Tower Speaker" from www.parts-express.com!
> 
> These are inexpensive and might be what you are looking for: "BIC RtR 1530 15" 3-Way Tower Speaker" from www.parts-express.com!
> 
> If you look carefully at either speaker there, you'll notice that if you turned them sideways and used the side baffle as the front, the dimensions aren't all that different from modern "narrow" speakers. As it turns out, modern skinny towers aren't as different from the classic floor standing boxes as you might think
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you'd like some ideas for a home brew floor standing unit throw me a budget and I'll see what I can come up with. Or as others have mentioned, if you can get some damaged/used classic floor standing speakers (hopefully with bad drivers but good boxes, then just upgrade the drivers, install internal bracing if possible, and build a proper modern X-over for them you'd really have something nice IMO.
> 
> Eric


I had those Cerwin Vegas back in 92 when I used to deejay. Technics 1200s, a Numark mixer, a Kenwood or Onkyo power amp. 5.1s were popular then as well. Now just a sub woofer and a soundbar is considered surround soun.


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## Baddodge

I have set of klisch Cornwall 1's. They were built in 1974, they have 15" woofer and weight 100LBS plus each. With the sensitivity over 100% they don't take much to drive


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## kiriakos

In Europe we have different Heroes series, and we do manage to service them.
I did that too three years ago. 


Refoamen Philips FB-815 luidsprekers - Hamforum.nl


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## jamesch

The main obstruction to using smaller speakers is amplification. As amplification improved, there was less of an incentive to use big speakers. Also improvements in horn geometry (or what they call waveguides these days) has provided huge increases in volume output from a small package. In general nobody really wants a giant furniture piece if you can avoid it.


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## o1dschoo1

jamesch said:


> The main obstruction to using smaller speakers is amplification. As amplification improved, there was less of an incentive to use big speakers. Also improvements in horn geometry (or what they call waveguides these days) has provided huge increases in volume output from a small package. In general nobody really wants a giant furniture piece if you can avoid it.


pretty much a decent 12/15 is overkill for home theater lol. I remember my dad had a 15 inch jl woofer for his home system when i was a kid and we watched terminator and it shook the damn house when he stepped on that skull. 
Ontop of that speaker efficiency has gotten so much better.


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## munternet

Greg121986 said:


> Sorry it's a bad pic, I took it from my work phone.
> 
> Harbeth Monitor 40.1 speakers in my old house. These are quite large, and they sound incredible.


Reviews on these look awesome 
They seem to have a natural ability to reproduce realistic sound across genres
Surprised they didn't get more notice

I myself have some Focal Aria 926's Focal Aria 926 Loudspeakers Reviewed which are not in the same league but go loud


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## Greg121986

munternet said:


> Reviews on these look awesome
> They seem to have a natural ability to reproduce realistic sound across genres
> Surprised they didn't get more notice
> 
> I myself have some Focal Aria 926's Focal Aria 926 Loudspeakers Reviewed which are not in the same league but go loud


Holy necro!! That is an old pic. I bought a pair of Focal Electra 1028Be about 5 years ago after auditioning the (at that time) new Aria series from Focal. I highly recommend the Aria but the Electra were better. The Electra is now replaced by the Kanta which are very good and a minor upgrade over the Electra. I will probably be selling my Electras in a year or two in order to upgrade to something different.


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## munternet

Greg121986 said:


> Holy necro!! That is an old pic. I bought a pair of Focal Electra 1028Be about 5 years ago after auditioning the (at that time) new Aria series from Focal. I highly recommend the Aria but the Electra were better. The Electra is now replaced by the Kanta which are very good and a minor upgrade over the Electra. I will probably be selling my Electras in a year or two in order to upgrade to something different.


Be careful you don't "upgrade" to something not as good. Those are a pretty nice speaker


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## JustinThyme

They are still there. If you want something with audiophile quality you bank account is gonna cry. Just my two front mains were $6K for the pair. Polk Legends L800s. They weigh in at 120 lbs each. 4 ft tall, 12 inches wide and 16 inches deep.


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## neurotix

Currently Owned - [Hifi] Retro Modern Japanese Tower of...


500w/1000w peak RMS




www.overclock.net





You guys might appreciate my Retro Modern hifi setup I made a few years back. It is retro modern because I stuck a Raspberry Pi with Kodi and a small monitor on top. It streams my music across the network but can also do Pandora, Soundcloud and Shoutcast (remember that?) I can control it with a remote we got on Amazon for $10. I can also play old CDs and tapes I have.

The floor standers are Technics SB-A32 with 2 8" woofers in each cabinet. Twin Woofer Mutual Effect System thump thump. They made versions of these speakers with two 10s or two 12s. Best thing is that mine were only $40 at Pawn America.

Compared to the picture at my link, it looks a lot better now because I bought a nice faux wood cabinet for it from some guy on Craigslist for like $40. I can take new pictures if anyone wants.

Overall the system is 500w/1000w rms. I used decibel meter on my phone and got 94dB while playing 2000s Japanese trance very loud. Anything over 85dB can damage your hearing. Awesome.


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## JustinThyme

neurotix said:


> Currently Owned - [Hifi] Retro Modern Japanese Tower of...
> 
> 
> 500w/1000w peak RMS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.overclock.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You guys might appreciate my Retro Modern hifi setup I made a few years back. It is retro modern because I stuck a Raspberry Pi with Kodi and a small monitor on top. It streams my music across the network but can also do Pandora, Soundcloud and Shoutcast (remember that?) I can control it with a remote we got on Amazon for $10. I can also play old CDs and tapes I have.
> 
> The floor standers are Technics SB-A32 with 2 8" woofers in each cabinet. Twin Woofer Mutual Effect System thump thump. They made versions of these speakers with two 10s or two 12s. Best thing is that mine were only $40 at Pawn America.
> 
> Compared to the picture at my link, it looks a lot better now because I bought a nice faux wood cabinet for it from some guy on Craigslist for like $40. I can take new pictures if anyone wants.
> 
> Overall the system is 500w/1000w rms. I used decibel meter on my phone and got 94dB while playing 2000s Japanese trance very loud. Anything over 85dB can damage your hearing. Awesome.


85dB is the OSHA standard for needing hearing protection. I dont blast loud too often but sometimes I cant resist. I can push about 1600 watts with external amps but dont need to. The get plenty loud enough. I always go above what I need and the speakers wont draw more than they are capable of. I made the mistake once of figuring Ill never listen to it that loud and bough under powered and ended up getting drop outs and clipping at peaks. I think the smallest woofer I have in any cabinet is my center channel with 5 inch. Towers are all 8 and subs are 13. Im not one to "Thump" for the sake of thumping. I like to feel it but its more about tonality which is why I dont use ported subs. Some people get crazy with the thump factor, Im not one of them. Not into tracks that are all about low end either but some folks thats their style. Its up to the individual and their tastes. Had someone pull up to me at a stop light the other day on my right side with their windows down and all I could hear was thumping, nothing else. Tried to get their attention to please turn that down but of course they couldn't hear anything. Well they heard the Vance and Hines big shot exhausts when I revved my 110CI/1800CCs of Harley Davidson VTwin right in their window. Then the rolled up the windows and pulled up. The pipes are obnoxiously loud when I get on it. So much so that Im changing out the baffles to something a little less loud while still maintaining a nice throaty rumble. Have a pair of 6x9s in the fairing but cant even hear it unless I crank the crap out of it to get over the exhaust.


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## neurotix

I agree with all of that.

I primarily listen to metal, old rap (80s- about 2005) and trance and all of those are low end heavy. But I listen to just about everything else besides country. If I'm playing something like synth heavy 80s pop/new wave or Pink Floyd or Dire Straits I generally turn the sub down. The Technics floor standers have some great 1" highs and 2.5" mids and I also have my equalizer to boost the mids and highs, and I dont need very much volume on the receiver.

However, if I'm listening to Mobb Deep or Tupac I can up the low end on the equalizer, set the low pass knob on the sub to sub 90hz and turn the volume on it up and get the deep bass. It can be a bit annoying with different tracks because I need to manually tune the sub volume (I have overall volume on the Pioneer reveiver that affects the four 8" AND the 12" and I have a volume knob on the back of the Polk psw-505 so I really have to watch it with the sub so I dont blow the amp).

Anyway I just thought I would link my build in case anyone found it interesting. A lot of the components were found in thrift stores for under $50, the Polk psw-505 was the most expensive, and you can do modern digital stuff/streams using the Raspberry pi, kodi and a spare monitor.


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## neurotix

Also heres a recent picture of it with the cabinet I got


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## Jedi Mind Trick

Got a ported 18” at my parents, couldn’t fit it in my apartment. I feel called out by @JustinThyme, I love the thump. Got an inverse house curve to run the sub ~20db hot at 20hz.

Cannot wait to buy a house so I can have my theater system setup again.

@neurotix, love me some Mobb Deep!


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## BinaryBummer

I am using a Marantz SR-6003 along with a Pioneer DV-59AVi early SACD capable, and a PMD510 Professional Dual Cassette deck, but I use my PC with a Creative SB-0880 soundcard to push tracks through Foobar 2000 and Equalizer/Peace APO to my ELac 2.0 B6.2 and a Yamaha NS-SW100 subwoofer, and a Yamaha Center channel along with another sub and some 2 way sony's on the back if I use the surround side.
I really enjoy the Elacs small they are but they really sound out. At this time it is good enough without trying to be a cork sniffer.


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## JustinThyme

Jedi Mind Trick said:


> Got a ported 18” at my parents, couldn’t fit it in my apartment. I feel called out by @JustinThyme, I love the thump. Got an inverse house curve to run the sub ~20db hot at 20hz.
> 
> Cannot wait to buy a house so I can have my theater system setup again.
> 
> @neurotix, love me some Mobb Deep!


Yeah, you are called out LOL
Just not my bag. Ive tried high $$ ported subs and they thump and move air but the tonality is lost. Thats my biggest problem with ported. That and the annoyance on the road. I like being able to actually hear bass riffs note for note and being able to tell what drum kit is being used by the sound of the bass drums. Im into tonality and separation and being able to hear every little nuance of a track be in cinema or just an audio track. I could go without subs if I wanted to. My towers cover it plenty well enough but I prefer the separation and have the cross overs set up as such.


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## BinaryBummer

JustinThyme said:


> Yeah, you are called out LOL
> Just not my bag. Ive tried high $$ ported subs and they thump and move air but the tonality is lost. Thats my biggest problem with ported. That and the annoyance on the road. I like being able to actually hear bass riffs note for note and being able to tell what drum kit is being used by the sound of the bass drums. Im into tonality and separation and being able to hear every little nuance of a track be in cinema or just an audio track. I could go without subs if I wanted to. My towers cover it plenty well enough but I prefer the separation and have the cross overs set up as such.


It comes down to having a balanced outfit. Might be why so many search for that sound.
Subs can be a rash. Got to match things up to the speakers and yet you cannot push the sub/s to hard either or like you said you loose that detail. We want that smooth encompassing bass that is immersive yet we want those mids and highs to be very defined without drowning them.
First off to boot is the recording. I mean I have some music that just towers over most other recordings. They are just well done allowing you to hear so much more, very punchy yet subtle at the same time.
Then you want a 2 channel or a 2.1 at best for just music. Most AVR receivers are not well suited for music but rather surround. AVR is like doing a blow up doll, it just isn't the real thing... Back to hifi components when yet you needed that large 12" speaker for your low end.
Maybe a set of JBL's for a bit of classic sound..


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## JustinThyme

BinaryBummer said:


> It comes down to having a balanced outfit. Might be why so many search for that sound.
> Subs can be a rash. Got to match things up to the speakers and yet you cannot push the sub/s to hard either or like you said you loose that detail. We want that smooth encompassing bass that is immersive yet we want those mids and highs to be very defined without drowning them.
> First off to boot is the recording. I mean I have some music that just towers over most other recordings. They are just well done allowing you to hear so much more, very punchy yet subtle at the same time.
> Then you want a 2 channel or a 2.1 at best for just music. Most AVR receivers are not well suited for music but rather surround. AVR is like doing a blow up doll, it just isn't the real thing... Back to hifi components when yet you needed that large 12" speaker for your low end.
> Maybe a set of JBL's for a bit of classic sound..


My Denon with input from an Oppo SACD source is awesome. What kills using AVRs for music is when you dont use external amps. It does stereo just fine as well into 2.2. using preamp out into external amps. Im with you that I dont to the "All channel Stereo) from an AVR. Just not how it was recorded. Biggest fail in the music category is like you said the source. If you are doing MP3s then just stick with playing it through your phone as its just not the same or even close. I have ripped some CDs but used lossless conversion which results in 40-60MB/track. I have a few then decided it just takes up too much drive space and its not that difficult to load up the CD. Good old vinyl us awesome too if you can find decent titles recorded correctly. Once Upon a time I have a nice turntable and quite the collection of LPs then along came children and forget scratches, they used them for frisbees!!...Damnd kids....cant have anything LOL They are grown now but Im satisfied with my SACDs and CDs.


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## darthspartan

JustinThyme said:


> Yeah, you are called out LOL
> Just not my bag. Ive tried high $$ ported subs and they thump and move air but the tonality is lost. Thats my biggest problem with ported. That and the annoyance on the road. I like being able to actually hear bass riffs note for note and being able to tell what drum kit is being used by the sound of the bass drums. Im into tonality and separation and being able to hear every little nuance of a track be in cinema or just an audio track. I could go without subs if I wanted to. My towers cover it plenty well enough but I prefer the separation and have the cross overs set up as such.


Nailed it on ported, You get a good amount more SPL with a port but the back wave is still always a cycle behind the front and makes the low end sloppy, loud but sloppy. I had for the longest time a pair of front loaded powered 18s hooked up and they sound fine still have them and a pair of front loaded doubles for other stuff. But In my studio room Ive switched to a pair of folded bathtub style 18s with no ports from the late 80s. They were not very impressive when they came out the original ferite eminence drivers where pretty meh specs wise. Found a pair of 2258HPL production sample drivers on ebay and loaded those in them with a Macrotech 5000VZ to drive em. They absolutely smash now with very little dsp they will gladly play down to around 10hz and even lower but the roll off gets a bit steep in the sub 10 range and the response is impressively flat only a few parametric bands where needed to really get it totally flat from 10-110. They actualy sound a lot better than say the Meyer 700HP 1100/900lfc cabs and those cost orders of magnitude more. Its really too bad I can't get a bunch of non-ported stuff from live people would be really impressed I think.


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## JustinThyme

darthspartan said:


> Nailed it on ported, You get a good amount more SPL with a port but the back wave is still always a cycle behind the front and makes the low end sloppy, loud but sloppy. I had for the longest time a pair of front loaded powered 18s hooked up and they sound fine still have them and a pair of front loaded doubles for other stuff. But In my studio room Ive switched to a pair of folded bathtub style 18s with no ports from the late 80s. They were not very impressive when they came out the original ferite eminence drivers where pretty meh specs wise. Found a pair of 2258HPL production sample drivers on ebay and loaded those in them with a Macrotech 5000VZ to drive em. They absolutely smash now with very little dsp they will gladly play down to around 10hz and even lower but the roll off gets a bit steep in the sub 10 range and the response is impressively flat only a few parametric bands where needed to really get it totally flat from 10-110. They actualy sound a lot better than say the Meyer 700HP 1100/900lfc cabs and those cost orders of magnitude more. Its really too bad I can't get a bunch of non-ported stuff from live people would be really impressed I think.


I run a pair of SVS SB-3000s sealed 13 inch with 800 watts continuous and 2500watts peak each. No drop off. Of course I dont run them at their peak power or the subs would kill everything else. If I did they would drop off down in the 10 Hz range also to around 100W. I cranked them ONCE. I think the neighbors windows were rattling! I didn't buy them for the chest thumping power. I bought them for tonality which they are very good at. wasnt too bad when Ibought them at $1800 for the pair. They are a little more now but not by much. I run them with the level at about 30%. Could get away with none of even just one but again even bass riffs have separation and my AVR has left and right LFE connections. My older Onkyo TX-SR875 only has one LFE out. It has the power to drive all the chnnels but nothing is as crisp and clean as using the pre out and and decent amps rated accordingly with your speakers capabilities. You dont have to buy top of the line, just decent. Top of the line two channel amps can run $5K and up. I run a 5 channel and 2 monoblocks for my two L800s and the height channels are the only thing that I use my AVR to drive. Both Emotivas top of the line but not bad enough to break the bank unless you are financially challenged. The difference is very noticeable unless you are tone deaf or just dont have the audiophile ear and dont care like my wife and her amazon echo. Hell the stereo on my Fatboy sounds better when you have to crank it to get over the Vance & Hines big shots pipes. Winter project, Im actually going to install what they call quiet baffles that are still far from quiet but tones it down a bit and gives in more of a rich Harley rumble instead of the straight pipe sound they have now. There are baffles in there if you want to call it that. just inserts with some fins on them but mostly just like straight pipes. 1800CCs of Vtwin gets quite loud when you roll on the throttle. If I actually want to listen to music while cruising I use BT set instead of the 6x9s mounted in the fairing.


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