# [OCN Labs] nixeus revel review



## Arizonian

Thank you for the dissection of this mouse. I'd say fair assessment after 3 days of owning this myself.









Add: So 3366 better than 3360


----------



## Elrick

Thanks for the detailed analysis, much appreciated








.

After reading this, do you finally admit that this mouse at the current price point is the very BEST one for hardcore Gamers?

Could the Revel be the Best 3360 model currently available or not ?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> do you finally admit


what are you trying to imply...

i don't have the dm1pro or finallymouse s1


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> Disclaimer: I received this a review sample for free as part of the Overclock Labs program. No form of compensation is given for this other than access to the product. From my current understanding, I do not own the product and I am asked to hold onto it until it is needed for future for giveaways or for future use in the lab that OCn will setup.


ETA on the G403 review?


----------



## qsxcv

uh...
as of right now the nixeus revel is the first and only mouse going through the ocn labs program


----------



## phamtom

G403? Has a new "g400" type mouse been announced?


----------



## qsxcv

no
god damn it derp


----------



## wareya

i too await the g666

in all seriousness thanks for the review


----------



## equlix

Thanks for the review.


----------



## qsxcv

apparently the revel goes pretty deep into the 3360 rest/power-saving modes... which is kind of weird for a wired mouse.

pretty easy to see by leaving the mouse alone for a minute and then moving it


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no
> god damn it derp


-_-


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no
> god damn it derp


I'm sorry.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> do you finally admit
> 
> 
> 
> what are you trying to imply...
> 
> i don't have the dm1pro or finallymouse s1
Click to expand...

THUS FAR released is what I'm suggesting here.

It's also about time that you realize that certain price points won't guarantee supremacy when it comes to placing any sensor inside. Other things also come into play BUT considering this is the FIRST one you've reviewed (my presumption here) then this mouse, on a scale from 1 (Razer filth) to 10 (Logitech Mastery) is what exactly?

People are curious to know were you would place this mouse on the current scale of previously released mice?


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> apparently the revel goes pretty deep into the 3360 rest/power-saving modes... which is kind of weird for a wired mouse.
> 
> pretty easy to see by leaving the mouse alone for a minute and then moving it


Fixable? Something that can be firmware updateable?


----------



## trism

Hmm, lens is not heat-staked? Wonder if it's only this unit or all of them, seems kinda weird (although not mandatory at all - makes it a slightly better sensor-donor though







)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> Fixable? Something that can be firmware updateable?


Yes.


----------



## SeanyC

Awesome technical review. Thanks for taking the time.


----------



## Soo8

Delete. I was wrong about the encoder.


----------



## delledonne

God tier review.


----------



## Dahvi

its TTC scroll, that 11 in circle is new logo of TTC for scrolls


----------



## m0uz

I'm sure I saw "G1[xx]" scribbled out


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dahvi*
> 
> its TTC scroll, that 11 in circle is new logo of TTC for scrolls


thanks, updated OP.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> on a scale from 1 (Razer filth) to 10 (Logitech Mastery) is what exactly?
> 
> People are curious to know were you would place this mouse on the current scale of previously released mice?


i've never owned a razer mouse
i have no such scale
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Hmm, lens is not heat-staked? Wonder if it's only this unit or all of them, seems kinda weird (although not mandatory at all - makes it a slightly better sensor-donor though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


they claim the review samples are chosen arbitrarily, so it should be for all of them


----------



## ronal

Anyone else having problem controlling recoil in CSGO (with AK47 and M4).


----------



## CorruptBE

What was your previous mouse?


----------



## Stolfus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Anyone else having problem controlling recoil in CSGO (with AK47 and M4).


Valve recently made changes to the way recoil works, that might be your problem.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i've never owned a razer mouse
> i have no such scale


Owned plenty of Razer's in the past, other then the scrollwheel design (which always broke for me after ~1 year), build quality was OK. I still have gripes with Synapse degrading the performance of their mice though.


----------



## roz133

Very nice review. Kinda disappointed by the mcu smoothing. finallymouse somehow looks less like a joke now.


----------



## Nilizum

I measured 66mm on the revel. I'm using a GX1 Pro @ 61mm, so I'm kinda disappointed as well. I wonder what the DM1 Pro S sensor position is, since it seems kind of lower.


----------



## qsxcv

the joke is how Jude handled the situation

after probing things some more i'll contact Peter and see what they can do about firmware stuff


----------



## mitavreb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> Very nice review. Kinda disappointed by the mcu smoothing. finallymouse somehow looks less like a joke now.


Will that even be noticeable in actual gameplay? If I buy a 3360 mouse my main concern would be if the smoothing is lesser/lower than a 3310 sensor because if it is, then that would be an overall improvement already.


----------



## roz133

@ qsxcv : yea true

n if peter could help sort out the firmware, fix the smoothing n maybe reduce the click latency a bit more, it would be a pretty decent mouse. ticks all the main points - shape (for me), weight, cable, sensor

@mitavreb : the latest 3310s have supposedly brought down the delay from 4ms to even lower but its still kinda noticeable for me when tracking moving targets at range .. idk if this will actually be noticeable on the revel, im yet to receive mine, but whats the point of adding this smoothing in the first place when almost everyone prefers that there is none? other than for super high dpi ofc ..


----------



## blobs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> apparently the revel goes pretty deep into the 3360 rest/power-saving modes... which is kind of weird for a wired mouse.
> 
> pretty easy to see by leaving the mouse alone for a minute and then moving it


Is there a fix for this at all?


----------



## Bucake

thanks for the work and write-up qsxcv

if the OCN labs program will continue giving us reviews like this, i'm happy it exists


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> thanks for the work and write-up qsxcv
> 
> if the OCN labs program will continue giving us reviews like this, i'm happy it exists


For mice it pretty much just started, the Flick G1 was the first I got, my revel review still has to wait till after my holidays. But really all the technical stuff is here already, I'll just fill some bits and pieces and throw the rest in for completion.

Hopefully some more manufacturers join the OCN labs.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blobs*
> 
> Is there a fix for this at all?


yea it would be trivial to change for whoever made the firmware


----------



## blobs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yea it would be trivial to change for whoever made the firmware


OK, is there anything *I* can do as a short term fix?


----------



## qsxcv

it doesn't matter since it only enters the first rest mode after ~7s of inactivity


----------



## Lolcarrots

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> it doesn't matter since it only enters the first rest mode after ~7s of inactivity


Sorry for pleb question, but what is the "standard" or "normal" amount of time for a 3360 to enter rest mode on another mouse that isn't the revel? 7s is not very long at all. How much tracking quality is lost after entering a rest mode/how long does it take to re-enter a non-resting state?


----------



## qsxcv

there are multiple rest modes
the first rest mode isn't noticeable at all; the sensor runs at 1000fps and goes back to full speed immediately after any motion (my assumption, but there's no reason for it to not be like this)
logitech's wired 3366 mice are configured to go into rest mode after 10s or so, but doesn't go into the deeper rest modes (on its wired mice).

revel goes all the way down or something; if you leave the mouse for a minute or so and try to use it, you'll notice the cursor lag by 0.2seconds or something when motion begins. usually you only see this for wireless mouse that want to save power when idle.

doesn't really matter but kind of weird to have in a wired mouse.


----------



## Lolcarrots

Are there only 2 rest modes? If there are more modes between, when would it start to be noticeable? After how long are these modes generally achieved (if that's ever been tested/if they exist at all)?

EDIT: Are there any ways of testing your assumption of resuming a non-resting state after movement, or is it such a minute amount of time that it's too difficult to test/not worth testing?


----------



## qsxcv

no there are 3 or 4, i don't remember

it's something like
after 10s inactivity, go into 1000fps rest mode
after 30s more inactivity, go into 100fps rest mode
after 1min more inactivity, go into 10fps rest mode
as soon as there is any motion, wake up and return to the normal run mode

i'm making these numbers up but i think you get the point...


----------



## Lolcarrots

I do, I guess I'm just curious about the minimum amount of time the revel would need to remain idle to have noticeable effects on tracking because of a power save setting. You said the first mode the revel enters is around 7 seconds, so would it also enter the second mode sooner, too? If it's still ~30 seconds or so, it definitely isn't a real issue.

EDIT: You made up the 10 second mark, so idk why I said "sooner" than an arbitrary number. I'm dumb.


----------



## qsxcv

don't know and don't care about to determine it systematically.

i don't understand what your concern is

it doesn't affect tracking in regular use, and it doesn't affect tracking after the 0.2s or however long it takes for the mouse to realize that it's in motion after being in rest mode for a minute or something


----------



## Lolcarrots

I was just concerned about whether it was actually something worth worrying about at all, which apparently it isn't. Thanks for clearing it up.


----------



## Pente

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> doesn't really matter but kind of weird to have in a wired mouse.


Sounds like a feature to me.

Pro gamer mouse discourages "toxic" camping behavior. Get your kid one and teach him the mouse will power down if he stays still for too long to, they'll grow up to not become camping nubs.


----------



## exitone

The problem is that if you're holding an angle on csgo, you certainly don't want lag when you see an enemy pop up.


----------



## SmashTV

I very much doubt you'll be holding for as long as it will take to seriously interfere with tracking - if even that at its lowest, don't have specifics.

Let's not run away with this as some larger problem.


----------



## blobs

True, the reason I asked the question was because I was having issues with the mouse becoming kinda unresponsive after my PC came out of sleep mode. Turns out its probably something to do with my USB ports


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Thanks for the detailed analysis, much appreciated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> After reading this, do you finally admit that this mouse at the current price point is the very BEST one for hardcore Gamers?
> 
> Could the Revel be the Best 3360 model currently available or not ?


It sounds like the DM Pro
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> The problem is that if you're holding an angle on csgo, you certainly don't want lag when you see an enemy pop up.


For one thing you may move a count and back anyway while holding an angle, but for another thing IDK about you, but for me holding an angle I do a tiny circle with my mouse every 5 seconds or so just so I don't lose reaction time so much. I'm pretty sure its a known phenomena that the longer you are waiting for something the worse your reaction time is. I feel doing tiny circles with my mouse or something like that helps me kind of reset my reactions because I definitely have a big drop in reaction time if I hold an angle too long.


----------



## Watsyurdeal

Well, I went back to my EC2-A, I think I am just not used to the shape. Maybe an FK-2 or DM1 Pro S may satisfy me.

For now I am just waiting to see if Dream machines comes out with that new intellimouse I heard rumors about.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Watsyurdeal*
> 
> Well, I went back to my EC2-A, I think I am just not used to the shape. Maybe an FK-2 or DM1 Pro S may satisfy me.
> 
> For now I am just waiting to see if Dream machines comes out with that new intellimouse I heard rumors about.


whats your hand length/width


----------



## Watsyurdeal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> whats your hand length/width


I don't remember the exact measurements, but I know my hand length is between 18-19 cm, and my width is between 12-13 cm.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> The problem is that if you're holding an angle on csgo, you certainly don't want lag when you see an enemy pop up.


because people hold angles for a minute in csgo without moving a pixel...


----------



## Watsyurdeal

I don't think a faster mouse will help you much in CS GO, maybe better headphones, better connection, or just play a First Person Shooter, not First Person Chess.


----------



## nillington

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Watsyurdeal*
> 
> I don't think a faster mouse will help you much in CS GO, maybe better headphones, better connection, or just play a First Person Shooter, not First Person Chess.


Just FYI they added a second team in a recent patch: the Terrorist team. Their job is to attack the previously neglected objectives, not hold angles.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Watsyurdeal*
> 
> Well, I went back to my EC2-A, I think I am just not used to the shape. Maybe an FK-2 or DM1 Pro S may satisfy me.
> 
> For now I am just waiting to see if Dream machines comes out with that new intellimouse I heard rumors about.


Pro s is the exact same shape so i doubt it will satisfy you.

If D3 drops an intellimouse clone & does it right, that could be very interesting.


----------



## P54J

Pro S is slightly *beefier* than Revel as to my reception.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> apparently the revel goes pretty deep into the 3360 rest/power-saving modes... which is kind of weird for a wired mouse.
> 
> pretty easy to see by leaving the mouse alone for a minute and then moving it


Is this why when I first plugged in the mouse the right/left clicks weren't working? Is this strictly related to the mouse or does it change a power setting on windows? I thought I had a broken unit


----------



## qsxcv

no i meant sensor settings, which have nothing to do with clicks


----------



## drez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> apparently the revel goes pretty deep into the 3360 rest/power-saving modes... which is kind of weird for a wired mouse.
> 
> pretty easy to see by leaving the mouse alone for a minute and then moving it


I noticed this. It's pretty weird. They are probably better off to disable the power saving features. I don't like it.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no i meant sensor settings, which have nothing to do with clicks


Interesting, maybe I messed something up uninstalling the old mouse driver I normally restart after doing that but instead I plugged it right in

Can't think of any other reason, I had to move the mouse around and click the dpi button several times before m1/2 worked


----------



## SeanyC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> after probing things some more i'll contact Peter and see what they can do about firmware stuff


Any news on this front?


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SeanyC*
> 
> Any news on this front?


Working on it - seeing what and if some of those firmware stuff can be done.


----------



## SeanyC

Awesome, thanks.

I really love this mouse. Great work.

These firmware tweaks are very minor. I personally don't notice the smoothing, but also don't see any reason to have it there.


----------



## SmashTV

Does that mean there's a way to flash firmware right now?


----------



## d9ku

Any shop that ships this mouse to Spain?


----------



## phamtom

Amazon.es sells it


----------



## d9ku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phamtom*
> 
> Amazon.es sells it


Thanks!!!


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Does that mean there's a way to flash firmware right now?


Yes... I got the new firmware today and I'm testing it right now.


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Yes... I got the new firmware today and I'm testing it right now.


Yay, thanks for getting it done pretty quickly. Did qsxcv's suggestions also include reducing the click latency or is the new firmware addressing the mcu smoothing alone?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Yes... I got the new firmware today and I'm testing it right now.


Whoa, bravo on some software support. Seriously.









Hope it doesn't end up like the Ninox debacle though.


----------



## qsxcv

may i test it too?


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Whoa, bravo on some software support. Seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope it doesn't end up like the Ninox debacle though.


Well the issue with Ninox was the OTP (one-time programmable) MCU which the Revel does not have.


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> may i test it too?


Yes - I sent you an e-mail on what the firmware was suppose to address base off your suggestions.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Yes - I sent you an e-mail on what the firmware was suppose to address base off your suggestions.


I'll take that too if you don't mind


----------



## Ufasas

this is it, i tested it in csgo, this mouse is perfect, light, quick, snappy, no jitter, low LOD, no braided cable, lights not annoying, headshots going in better, awping is fun as with g402 logi and even better, and it's cheaper than logi502 40%, this is it , revel replaces any logitech in the best way possible


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'll take that too if you don't mind


Check your e-mail


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Yes - I sent you an e-mail on what the firmware was suppose to address base off your suggestions.


Any updates on the new firmware?


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> Any updates on the new firmware?


Still validating it - to make sure it is safe for public release.


----------



## qsxcv

i don't see why that takes so long...


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i don't see why that takes so long...


I'm also waiting for Ino to get back to me. But if you think what you tested is okay for public release I will tell them to release it.


----------



## qsxcv

well my computer(s) represents only one or two configurations so my testing doesnt say much about whether the new firmware may cause someone's computer to explode (or something similarly drastic)

i'd say post it here on ocn (along with a downgrade option in case something goes wrong) so that more people can test it, before posting it on your website or elsewhere


----------



## SmashTV

If it's hitting ocn to sample I'll get in line.







Would like to see the changelog beforehand.


----------



## CorruptBE

Same here.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Would like to see the changelog beforehand.


not sure if i'm supposed to say this before Peter does, but anyway... (i guess if the firmware had some major problems i shouldn't say anything but that doesn't appear to be the case)

for the firmware i was sent, basically mcu smoothing is turned off and the deep rest modes are disabled.
mcu <-> sensor timing isn't perfect, so mousetester doesn't look completely periodic, but it's close enough that no one should complain. might be fixable in future


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

orly


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> (along with a downgrade option in case something goes wrong)


Good god yes. Being able to downgrade has always been a good thing to have imo.


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> not sure if i'm supposed to say this before Peter does, but anyway... (i guess if the firmware had some major problems i shouldn't say anything but that doesn't appear to be the case)
> 
> for the firmware i was sent, basically mcu smoothing is turned off and the deep rest modes are disabled.
> mcu <-> sensor timing isn't perfect, so mousetester doesn't look completely periodic, but it's close enough that no one should complain. might be fixable in future


Thank you for updating the firmware status/notes. That is the plan to have the base shipping firmware available to revert back - I'm just waiting for approval for it. I'm going to see about making the new firmware available to OCN first before making it available to the public - I'm just making sure the new mouse feet doesn't make it do anything funny.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> not sure if i'm supposed to say this before Peter does, but anyway... (i guess if the firmware had some major problems i shouldn't say anything but that doesn't appear to be the case)
> 
> for the firmware i was sent, basically mcu smoothing is turned off and the deep rest modes are disabled.
> mcu <-> sensor timing isn't perfect, so mousetester doesn't look completely periodic, but it's close enough that no one should complain. might be fixable in future


Thanks for posting this.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Thank you for updating the firmware status/notes. That is the plan to have the base shipping firmware available to revert back - I'm just waiting for approval for it. I'm going to see about making the new firmware available to OCN first before making it available to the public - I'm just making sure the new mouse feet doesn't make it do anything funny.


I'm eager.


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> not sure if i'm supposed to say this before Peter does, but anyway... (i guess if the firmware had some major problems i shouldn't say anything but that doesn't appear to be the case)
> 
> for the firmware i was sent, basically mcu smoothing is turned off and the deep rest modes are disabled.
> mcu <-> sensor timing isn't perfect, so mousetester doesn't look completely periodic, but it's close enough that no one should complain. might be fixable in future


not sure what that means, could you explain the mcu - sensor timing thing and how that affects the mouse performance


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> not sure if i'm supposed to say this before Peter does, but anyway... (i guess if the firmware had some major problems i shouldn't say anything but that doesn't appear to be the case)
> 
> for the firmware i was sent, basically mcu smoothing is turned off and the deep rest modes are disabled.
> mcu <-> sensor timing isn't perfect, so mousetester doesn't look completely periodic, but it's close enough that no one should complain. might be fixable in future
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for updating the firmware status/notes. That is the plan to have the base shipping firmware available to revert back - I'm just waiting for approval for it. I'm going to see about making the new firmware available to OCN first before making it available to the public - I'm just making sure the new mouse feet doesn't make it do anything funny.
Click to expand...

You guys.. Looking forward to try the firmware out!

Btw, the Revel is such a awesome mouse (glossy)!


----------



## Demi9OD

I like it better than the Logi G Pro. For $40-$50 it's a tremendous value.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> not sure what that means, could you explain the mcu - sensor timing thing and how that affects the mouse performance


there's enough jitter in the timing of when the mcu reads data from the sensor that it is visible in mousetester plots.
like most things, it's just a technical imperfection and most likely not perceivable


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> it's just a technical imperfection and most likely not perceivable


Never under estimate a mouse or audio enthusiast ability to "feel"


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> there's enough jitter in the timing of when the mcu reads data from the sensor that it is visible in mousetester plots.
> like most things, it's just a technical imperfection and most likely not perceivable


Unless there's an issue that arises or something else that needs a look at (like if clicks are an issue) I don't think it'd need to be fixed.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> I'm also waiting for Ino to get back to me. But if you think what you tested is okay for public release I will tell them to release it.


Sorry, I didn't get around doing that yet


----------



## Demi9OD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> there's enough jitter in the timing of when the mcu reads data from the sensor that it is visible in mousetester plots.
> like most things, it's just a technical imperfection and most likely not perceivable


Is this an effect of 2 frames of smoothing on the production firmware and 0 frames of smoothing in the beta you are testing?


----------



## wareya

smoothing doesn't affect time jitter, it affects amplitude jitter (signal noise)


----------



## Demi9OD

I'm still a little confused then. Is the timing jitter present in both the production firmware and the beta firmware, or only the beta? Is it something that was actively being worked on in the beta firmware?


----------



## wareya

why do you assume the smoothing and the timing jitter are connected


----------



## Demi9OD

qxsvc said _mcu smoothing is turned off_ and _mcu <-> sensor timing isn't perfect_. I thought the two were related based on his post.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> Never under estimate a mouse or audio enthusiast ability to "feel"


Well everything I "felt" was backed up by the testing in the responsiveness test.

But I don't go all mental over it like r0ach (hell I used a FK2 for God knows how long because of the shape).

I'd like to try the new firmware if I could get it, currently still using this mouse as my main.


----------



## frunction

I want dem feets more than the firmware.


----------



## SmashTV

My feet are ok but I'd like to try the firmware.

Release the Kraken Peter.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frunction*
> 
> I want dem feets more than the firmware.


My feet are improving over time lol. The wear and tear on the edges is doing its work.


----------



## bond10

How's this mouse compare to the DM1 Pro S? Better or worse?


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> How's this mouse compare to the DM1 Pro S? Better or worse?


about on par.

Pros and cons to both of mine. DM1 Pro feels a bit better built, smoother scroll wheel, better M3, a bit bigger (even though very similar on paper). Doesn't have 1200 DPI, M1/M2 buttons slightly better and lighter on the Revel, I also prefer the Revel side buttons, Revel has rubber cable, DM1 has braided cable, DM1 has spare feet in the box.... All very minor, they are very similar, and sensor / in game, basically identical.

I'm using the Revel ATM. I'd say the DM1 has a slight edge overall, but my M1 / M2 buttons are the main issue, bit vague and heavy, seems to be some slight internal friction on M1. Heard some Revel have the same issue, so... Both good, but could be improved.


----------



## SmashTV

Aside from the sweet price I got mine at, I picked the Revel over DM because the cord isn't angled into the ground. That would drive me insane the moment I move the mouse.

From the upcoming firmware that also was a good choice as I assume DM isn't offering any changes on that front.


----------



## bond10

Does the DM1 Pro S have the same MCU smoothing as the revel?


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Does the DM1 Pro S have the same MCU smoothing as the revel?


I'm not an expert in these things, but from
http://www.overclock.net/t/1605288/dream-machines-dm1-pro-s/140#post_25407877

I would say probably not. I believe the periodic pattern of higher and lower velocity on some reports would not show up with smoothing.


----------



## qsxcv

from that picture, i'm 95% sure there's none


----------



## Demi9OD

Peter, any news on the firmware or feet?


----------



## xtenglong

^ Ditto. I need something to hold me over from buying the G Pro while I wait for the G403 to come to the US.


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Demi9OD*
> 
> Peter, any news on the firmware or feet?


Replacement feet is working fine so far - I'm waiting for more samples to arrive. The firmware I'll try to make it available to OCN members this week - just waiting on one more confirmation.


----------



## Demi9OD

Paging @Ino, paging @Ino, check out the firmware


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Demi9OD*
> 
> Paging @Ino, paging @Ino, check out the firmware


It was my fault - I just got back from a family wedding when he was trying to access google drive. I just reactivated his permissions to the drive to access the firmware.


----------



## turnschuh

Hey @Peter Nixeus,
do you also offer the old firmware, when you release the beta one? (In case somethings screwed after flashing)

So @qsxcv, after testing the beta FW would you recommend everyone to flash the new firmware when its out, at this point? Or is mcu smoothing turned off "snake oil" in your opinion? (Meaning one could not feel a difference anyway?)

I mean mcu smoothing turned off sounds nice!
just curious


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Hey @Peter Nixeus,
> do you also offer the old firmware, when you release the beta one? (In case somethings screwed after flashing)
> 
> So @qsxcv, after testing the beta FW would you recommend everyone to flash the new firmware when its out, at this point? Or is mcu smoothing turned off "snake oil" in your opinion? (Meaning one could not feel a difference anyway?)
> 
> I mean mcu smoothing turned off sounds nice!
> just curious


Yes, we are also going to make the original shipping firmware available to revert back to.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> So @qsxcv, after testing the beta FW would you recommend everyone to flash the new firmware when its out, at this point? Or is mcu smoothing turned off "snake oil" in your opinion? (Meaning one could not feel a difference anyway?)
> 
> I mean mcu smoothing turned off sounds nice!
> just curious


uh... snake oil is supposed to be something that's better than not doing anything

mcu smoothing is doing something that *is* worse than not doing anything

so in this case even though you likely will not feel any difference, i'd do it anyway (assuming there are no side effects; at the moment no one has experienced any)

think of it like whether you would update a monitor's firmware to reduce the latency from 5ms to 4ms.
snake oil would be putting a magnet around your cable or some bs like that


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> a magnet around your cable


do you mean those ferrite things? are those actually useless? i've seen a lot of cables with that stuff around it, including mice


----------



## qsxcv

oh those actually do something of course. i dont think theyre actually magnetized though

i was thinking about audiophile cable crap


----------



## istonian

Any word on when the fw update will be available? Really want to buy the mouse but I want to be able to disable the mcu smoothing. Thats the only thing atm keeping me from getting it.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Yes, we are also going to make the original shipping firmware available to revert back to.


ok, thanks.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uh... snake oil is supposed to be something that's better than not doing anything
> 
> mcu smoothing is doing something that *is* worse than not doing anything
> 
> so in this case even though you likely will not feel any difference, i'd do it anyway (assuming there are no side effects; at the moment no one has experienced any)
> 
> think of it like whether you would update a monitor's firmware to reduce the latency from 5ms to 4ms.
> snake oil would be putting a magnet around your cable or some bs like that


ah ok thank you for the detailed reply. and yea i think snake oil was the wrong word i used.

oh got another question @Peter Nixeus, not sure if it was asked before:

is it possible in some time that the revel is sold like on amazon in germany for example?
are you satisfied with the numbers of sold revel this far? (not sure if you can answer me this one but i hope the revel was a success for you)

i would probably buy another one, but right now i am happy with my fixed revel which i thought i "destroyed" ^^

maybe you could ask the factory if they can make the "posts" which hit the LMB and RMB switch more even. because right know it looks like it is a squared tube with plastic sheeds glued in. (so thats why its not even) hard to describe can do photos later. i will probably sand them even and glue material on it till the clicks feel good.


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> ok, thanks.
> ah ok thank you for the detailed reply. and yea i think snake oil was the wrong word i used.
> 
> oh got another question @Peter Nixeus, not sure if it was asked before:
> 
> is it possible in some time that the revel is sold like on amazon in germany for example?
> are you satisfied with the numbers of sold revel this far? (not sure if you can answer me this one but i hope the revel was a success for you)
> 
> i would probably buy another one, but right now i am happy with my fixed revel which i thought i "destroyed" ^^
> 
> maybe you could ask the factory if they can make the "posts" which hit the LMB and RMB switch more even. because right know it looks like it is a squared tube with plastic sheeds glued in. (so thats why its not even) hard to describe can do photos later. i will probably sand them even and glue material on it till the clicks feel good.


The REVEL is currently available in Germany from Amazon.de

I've been suggesting for a gaming mouse project for the past 5 years and finally we were able to ship our first gaming mouse. It is an overall success thanks to the gaming mouse community.

I just got approved to release the beta firmware. I uploaded them to Google Drive for easy access/download for OCN Members:

*Here is the Nixeus REVEL BETA Firmware that QSXCV has been using (ver9.15.2016):*
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByAy91Wk4MjxTG4xbDFkZTdib00

*Ver9.15.2016 Change Log:

1) Removed MCU Smoothing not native to PMW 3360
Original MCU Smoothing was minimal - but we removed it at the request of QSXCV

2) Removed Mouse Sleep Mode*

Here is the original Nixeus REVEL Shipping Firmware to revert back to in case you like the shipping firmware's performance or in case you encounter issues with the new BETA firmware (ver7.15.2016):
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByAy91Wk4MjxeEwxaDR0dlhpRXc

*After extracting the zip file please follow these directions:*

1) Make sure the REVEL is connected to the PC
2) Double click on the "FlashOnLine.exe" F/W update program
3) Make sure there are no other programs or windows opened/running that may accidently interrupt the update.
4) Click on "Update" - you will see the program erase, install, and verify the firmware installation (during the installation you will see the REVEL's LED turn off).
5) Once the firmware is finished installing you will see a note "F/W Update Finish, Pug-Out Device" and just hit the "Exit" button (The LED on the mouse will come back on to indicate the firmware has installed successfully).
6) Unplug the mouse from the USB port of the computer and connect it back in.

*NOTE: If there is an error or interruption during installation the mouse will no longer function (LED does not come back on). Don't worry, the mouse is not bricked (first time this happened I thought I bricked the mouse a few months ago). Make sure the REVEL is still connected and just connect another working mouse (Make sure the other mouse is another brand and not a second REVEL you may own) to use to navigate and run the F/W update program again.*

Disclosure: Please take great care when installing the BETA firmware - we are not responsible if it causes any issues with your PC/peripherials (Install at your own risk).

I'm going to make the BETA Firmware live till the end of the month before I delete the download link so OCN members have a chance to get it and test it. Thank-you everyone and I appreciate everyone's feedback. If the majority on OCN likes the new BETA firmware I may proceed to make it an Official Public Firmware.


----------



## turnschuh

oh lol... i didnt know it was on amazon.de (The glossy only though). I hope its in stock there for a while, also the matte version.

good that the mouse was a success!

and thanks for providing the FW.
looking forward to try it out tomorrow.


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> oh lol... i didnt know it was on amazon.de (The glossy only though). I hope its in stock there for a while, also the matte version.
> 
> good that the mouse was a success!
> 
> and thanks for providing the FW.
> looking forward to try it out tomorrow.


The Rubberized Black sold out pretty quick. They just got new inventory and should be available in the next day or so...


----------



## SmashTV

Flashed the firmware and mouse didn't explode. Will test it for a while and make sure there isn't an issue I can find.


----------



## xtenglong

Successfully flashed firmware. Mouse felt pretty good before, feels even better now (90% placebo).

@qsxcv, did you ever do another motion latency comparison with the new firmware?


----------



## qsxcv

why is my name capitalized lol

modified op to note these changes
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xtenglong*
> 
> @qsxcv, did you ever do another motion latency comparison with the new firmware?


no

honestly i'm too lazy/uninterested to do it, even though it'd only take me 5minutes.


----------



## CorruptBE

Flashed, movement feels slightly more direct although before it was already very decent.

Idk why I'm so sensitive to this but all my guesses based on feel were reflected in tests done on this forum


----------



## qsxcv

ask someone to help you with a blind test: flip a coin. if heads flash the new firmware. if tails flash the old firmware. after it's done see if you can figure out which version it is.

of course this would need to be repeated many times to get statistics and whatever, but the experience alone should give you some knowledge on how confident you are about whether you can feel a difference.


----------



## Arizonian

Updated firmware with no issues. Thanks guys for working on this.









So does this update to the firmware make the revel the only *3360* sensor on market without smoothing?

I might be asking for much but how hard would it be to add command once color DPI step is found LED turns off after 3 seconds?


----------



## SmashTV

Man I forget how good this mouse feels for me. Crushed everything tonight despite flipping back and forth between firmware.

Good job Nixeus. You've earned the Robin spot on my desk. I put my X5 away and will keep this on the desk permanently.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> So does this update to the firmware make the revel the only *3360* sensor on market without smoothing


No. I don't think DM1 PRO S has MCU smoothing either. Don't know about the rest however I'd guess neither of the SS mice have it. All 3360 mice still have the SROM-based smoothing.


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> No. I don't think DM1 PRO S has MCU smoothing either. Don't know about the rest however I'd guess neither of the SS mice have it. All 3360 mice still have the SROM-based smoothing.


Yes DM1 Pro S has smoothing.
Quote:


> SMOOTHING - Close to off. This is another feature that helps "smooth" your movement to disguise any lag on the mouse sensor


https://www.dreammachines.io/products/dm1-pro-s-optical-gaming-mouse-3360-sensor?variant=21595780225


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> Yes DM1 Pro S has smoothing.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1608034/nixeus-revel-review/100#post_25509606 and the next comment.


----------



## speedyeggtart

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1608034/nixeus-revel-review/100#post_25509606 and the next comment.


That is just based off observations off that plot graph at 400 DPI... which may relate to what qsxvc mentioned that 3360 added smoothing is not noticeable under 2000 DPI, but at above 2000 DPI it has more smoothing than Logitech's 3366 sensor. Also qsxvc said he is not 100% sure (only 95%) looking at that graph - maybe someone test the DM1 Pro S at above 2000 DPI to make sure. With the revel he is 100% sure because he made the recommendations and tested the firmware.


----------



## Bucake

@speedyeggtart
yeah, but that's the srom smoothing trism mentioned, it's not mcu smoothing.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Removed MCU Smoothing not native to PMW 3360


it's probably perfectly possible to turn it off completely in the srom. i doubt it's native the way the high variance is native to the A9500


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> ask someone to help you with a blind test: flip a coin. if heads flash the new firmware. if tails flash the old firmware. after it's done see if you can figure out which version it is.
> 
> of course this would need to be repeated many times to get statistics and whatever, but the experience alone should give you some knowledge on how confident you are about whether you can feel a difference.


Well,

For starters, if I took all the mice I owned and placed them in order of "most responsive to least responsive", it fits exactly with the results people posted in the "somewhat objectively evaluating sensor responsiveness" thread.

And in my mind I already had this list from 1 to 10 (sort of speak), long before the thread existed.

In the past I've also succeeded at blind tests of refreshrates (that one I hit correct a 100% of the time if we're talking 60 vs 120, hell I can even do that one on the desktop) and sometimes even framerates of 110 (vs my normal 120 minimum).

Like I said, I have no clue why I'm so overtly sensitive to these things, I'm no r0ach though, I used a Zowie FK2 for ages because I found out over time, no matter how great a sensor, if the shape doesn't fit you, it's not going to work. This Revel is a welcome change in that regard.

I'd need someone to update/downgrade the firmware to do this one blind though









It would be interesting if I knew someone with more knowledge about these things like you qsxcv (and some other folks on this forum). I understand most of the things you guys talk about but there's a difference between "understanding" and "applying".

If I knew someone irl I would probably push these tests even further, I'm fairly confident the human brain can notice things being out of sync on the millisecond level. I'm not one of those people who thinks you can "see" 110 vs 120 fps, but when I blind tested that (that one actually happened by accident), I noticed something felt "off". When we send input (mouse movement) to a computer, we use a lot of things: our sight, touch, ... and I'm pretty sure our brain can notice things being different (not necessarily better on objective terms) quite well provided the task is repetitive and something we've become adequately good at.

It's not just an interesting subject just on a technological level imo, but also neurological, etc.


----------



## 0verpowered

Impressed by the level of support from Peter. It's pretty awesome that you guys are willing to make customizations for the community. I hope the trend continues, I am liking my Revel and already looking forward to its successor!


----------



## Demi9OD

I think I could tell a difference at 1,000fps, 12,000dpi, and .1 sensitivity. As it stands though I can't tell a difference between the MCU smoothing in the new firmware. I can see the difference in Mouse Tester but it's too small in Overwatch at least to judge.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> In the past I've also succeeded at blind tests of refreshrates (that one I hit correct a 100% of the time if we're talking 60 vs 120, hell I can even do that one on the desktop) and sometimes even framerates of 110 (vs my normal 120 minimum).


That's the quantization, i guess. If you just move the mouse with same moderate speed on both rates, the motion on 120 will be much more fluid.

Plus, on crt monitors the difference between 75 and 85 is HUGE and percievable. I'm actually not sure why but on 60hz both CRT and LCD after 20 minutes of looking at it i get dizzy, depressed and want to throw up, literally.


----------



## trism

@CorruptBE

I'll quote someone who I think is a very knowledgeable person in, quite literally, everything what he does.

"Human sensory systems can detect very small relative delays in parts of the visual or, especially, audio fields, but when absolute delays are below approximately 20 milliseconds they are generally imperceptible."

- John Carmack

Thus, I think we have a certain transitioning curve from "no perception" to "easily perceivable" after a certain threshold. Based on my own experiments with latency in mouse movement I think this transitioning curve is quite steep. If you happen to have a system that is just on the threshold, adding additional delay is going to be perceptible. So it technically isn't just about us as individuals but about the systems as well. You can't compare the perception with anyone unless you are using the same exact system at the same exact moment.

I am not claiming, however, that everyone is the same. But with a decent overhead, I think 2-4 ms delays are rather impossible to detect unless you are some sort of a genetic monster.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> @CorruptBEI am not claiming, however, that everyone is the same. But with a decent overhead, I think 2-4 ms delays are rather impossible to detect unless you are some sort of a genetic monster.


I also think that what's not percievable in just 1 sample is percievable in a repetitive conditions. People reported actually feeling unstable polling on mice, which in fact is just 1ms difference sometimes.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> @CorruptBE
> 
> I'll quote someone who I think is a very knowledgeable person in, quite literally, everything what he does.
> 
> "Human sensory systems can detect very small relative delays in parts of the visual or, especially, audio fields, but when absolute delays are below approximately 20 milliseconds they are generally imperceptible."
> 
> - John Carmack
> 
> Thus, I think we have a certain transitioning curve from "no perception" to "easily perceivable" after a certain threshold. Based on my own experiments with latency in mouse movement I think this transitioning curve is quite steep. If you happen to have a system that is just on the threshold, adding additional delay is going to be perceptible. So it technically isn't just about us as individuals but about the systems as well. You can't compare the perception with anyone unless you are using the same exact system at the same exact moment.
> 
> I am not claiming, however, that everyone is the same. But with a decent overhead, I think 2-4 ms delays are rather impossible to detect unless you are some sort of a genetic monster.


I doubt what we feel is always related to latency though.

I would call the difference more of a slightly direct, raw feeling rather then a reduction in latency, but very very slight and honestly not even noticeable on large motions. We sometimes focus so much on latency itself that we might forget other potential indirect influences.

I can't quite explain it as good as some of you guys but what could be the case (giving these 3 use cases with no alterations to anything except the smoothing or latency):

Case 1: Mouse has 1 ms smoothing
Case 2: Mouse has 0 ms smoothing
Case 3: Mouse has 0 ms smoothing as case 2, but we add 1 ms of artificial delay before inputs are sent
What I'm saying is, that we might not be able to feel the difference between Case 2 and 3, but we can in Case 1 and 2 or 1 and 3. We might be to hung up on the concept of just pure latency and not seeing how it affects the feel of cursor movement, etc.

Another example which we all know is 500Hz vs 1000Hz. I doubt we perceive the reduction of 1 ms latency due to ... well the reduction on latency, but we can perceive it due to the indirect effects of a higher polling rate (as someone posted on this forum ages ago with slow motion footage, higher Hz actually made screen updates aka tearing better).

Then again I'm not a neurologist nor a programmer (I work in networking/telecom/hardware/software repairs).

@M1st 60Hz monitors are fine at work for office work but for gaming 60 Hz actually induces migraines for me.


----------



## qsxcv

smoothing isn't the same thing as simply latency/delay since the actual path of the cursor is affected

for carmack's quote, i think 5ms is a more conservative number.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> It's not just an interesting subject just on a technological level imo, but also neurological, etc.


yes
but it's hard to know how fuzzy your perception is and how strong biases and placebo-like effects are.
that's why i recommend blind testing, not so much to prove/disprove things but to get a feel for how sensitive your brain actually is when you take away those biases.


----------



## CorruptBE

Would love to, but I'm getting older and most of my gaming related friends have gotten other worries than helping me with blind testing









Just in case I do find someone, is there a limit to how many times one can erase/write the firmware (wear and tear equivalent to for instance the writing of data to SSD's)? Or is this limit so high that we shouldn't worry?

In practice it would probably be easier to get a second revel and have one with an old firmware and one new and ask a friend to swap them while I'm not looking.


----------



## trism

Yeah, obviously smoothing is different. I barely notice the difference between 3310 and 3366 drawn mspaint lines at 3200 CPI when they are lifted up (on a blind test) so a scenario where the effect is much more dampened (3D environment), I don't _personally_ consider it as much more than added delay. However, I have no clue why smoothing is used in the first place. It definitely is not needed.

I consider 5 ms quite a huge exaggeration though since it is supposed to be the full system latency from physical input to perceived output. No data on this obviously and I could be wrong. It would certainly be fascinating if someone could notice the hand movement - screen movement inconsistency at say 10 ms. Maybe not for them individually though








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Would love to, but I'm getting older and most of my gaming related friends have gotten other worries than helping me with blind testing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just in case I do find someone, is there a limit to how many times one can erase/write the firmware (wear and tear equivalent to for instance the writing of data to SSD's)? Or is this limit so high that we shouldn't worry?
> 
> In practice it would probably be easier to get a second revel and have one with an old firmware and one new and ask a friend to swap them while I'm not looking.


Well, unless you plan on doing that for the rest of your life, I doubt you'll have issues. Of course everything can break at anytime but if you just consider the wear&tear it causes, you have no issues. It is specced to 1M flash writes.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Yeah, obviously smoothing is different. I barely notice the difference between 3310 and 3366 drawn mspaint lines at 3200 CPI when they are lifted up (on a blind test) so a scenario where the effect is much more dampened (3D environment), I don't _personally_ consider it as much more than added delay. However, I have no clue why smoothing is used in the first place. It definitely is not needed.


The difference between a 3310 and 3366 was even visible for me in my shadowplay footage of BF4:

G303: Tracking mostly on top of moving target
Zowie FK2: Often tracking slightly behind target instead of on it
Yet overall my performance was better with the FK2, there's no point in using a mouse that isn't comfortable for you in terms of shape and I think most of us can agree on that.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> The difference between a 3310 and 3366 was even visible for me in my shadowplay footage of BF4:
> 
> G303: Tracking mostly on top of moving target
> Zowie FK2: Often tracking slightly behind target instead of on it
> Yet overall my performance was better with the FK2, there's no point in using a mouse that isn't comfortable for you in terms of shape and I think most of us can agree on that.


Which could all fall to the bias of shape or other factors, like sensor position and compensated sensitivity. I track much better with A3050 Rival 100 than G Pro or G303







Obviously I am not trying to claim that you can't feel the difference but I think without testing it properly it is hard to judge if it's due to smoothing or something else.

Agree with your second statement, however. I am only interested in the technology itself, not really in using the best technology unless my preferences match. I dislike 3310 as smaller movements feel 'off' to me (bias? placebo? smoothing?) but I'm still using the ZA12 right now. My best time in Aimbooster is done with 3310 too (KPM) @ 2:54 iirc.

BTW. As this is so off-topic; Are you still playing The Division/gonna play after 1.4 hits?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I dislike 3310 as smaller movements feel 'off' to me (bias? placebo? smoothing?)


I doubt its placebo when so many people feel the same thing (3310 vs 3360)









Yeah I'm still playing the Division. It's the prime example of me getting to old imo for competitive and LAN's xD I do hope PvP in that game becomes less of a crap spamfest though.

Might pick up BF5, not to into the WW1 setup.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I consider 5 ms quite a huge exaggeration though since it is supposed to be the full system latency from physical input to perceived output. No data on this obviously and I could be wrong. It would certainly be fascinating if someone could notice the hand movement - screen movement inconsistency at say 10 ms. Maybe not for them individually though


there were a few people who claimed to be able to pass my blind AB input lag test thing at 5ms.
http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1134&sid=c3d59db2b3402b7132799fe9ebf360cd&start=50#p21701


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> there were a few people who claimed to be able to pass my blind AB input lag test thing at 5ms.
> http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1134&sid=c3d59db2b3402b7132799fe9ebf360cd&start=50#p21701


25/25 at 7ms here.


----------



## trism

I wonder how much overall system latency or system itself affects it. Previously with a r0ached Windows 7, I wasn't able to detect below 15 ms. Now I can do it 100% with 5 ms with bloat 10.


----------



## qsxcv

well my overall latency (usb data to crt light output) is <1ms. unless the framebuffer update happens during vblank
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cktehkalPAbJ5014jL-Vtg3YmGXmNTnAZy5CAQ-Zpkk/edit#gid=2006064244

didn't "r0ach" my system but it's fairly minimal with most unnecessary stuff disabled

now that summer is almost over and the sun is setting earlier i'm probably going to remake the input lag measuring rig. also to test my new lcd monitor


----------



## Bucake

16/25 @5ms :-( i am unworthy. gotta increase until i get 25/25 consistently i guess.
that's a nice test though, cheers qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *0verpowered*
> 
> Impressed by the level of support from Peter. It's pretty awesome that you guys are willing to make customizations for the community. I hope the trend continues, I am liking my Revel and already looking forward to its successor!


no offence to peter or nixeus but i don't feel like we should be praising them much. i rather think other companies should take an example of a company listening to and communicating with customers at this level.
it's not about what "the community" wants, it's about this place being a good one to get feedback from.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well my overall latency (usb data to crt light output) is <1ms. unless the framebuffer update happens during vblank
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cktehkalPAbJ5014jL-Vtg3YmGXmNTnAZy5CAQ-Zpkk/edit#gid=2006064244
> 
> didn't "r0ach" my system but it's fairly minimal with most unnecessary stuff disabled
> 
> now that summer is almost over and the sun is setting earlier i'm probably going to remake the input lag measuring rig. also to test my new lcd monitor


Yeah, I mean most people use an LCD nowadays. I'd assume it has a bit more lag and if we have some sort of a threshold, wouldn't this affect it? (by allowing you to lower the time in your program)

That's using the LÖVE engine? The program is only running at ~300 fps on my comp.

I actually have a spare photodiode, could do some measurements myself.


----------



## Demi9OD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> 16/25 @5ms :-( i am unworthy. gotta increase until i get 25/25 consistently i guess.
> that's a nice test though, cheers qsxcv
> no offence to peter or nixeus but i don't feel like we should be praising them much. i rather think other companies should take an example of a company listening to and communicating with customers at this level.
> it's not about what "the community" wants, it's about this place being a good one to get feedback from.


That's not really fair, he deserves some praise, and if he didn't get it, how would other companies know that his example was one that was appreciated by the community?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> no offence to peter or nixeus but i don't feel like we should be praising them much. i rather think other companies should take an example of a company listening to and communicating with customers at this level.
> it's not about what "the community" wants, it's about this place being a good one to get feedback from.


Well there is praise in that they promptly contacted the contract manufacturer and had them fix it.


----------



## rattleheadmegadeth

25/25 first go on an ikea leather mousepad that jitters like crazy even when not moving the mouse hehe


----------



## DuckyFilc0

So the DM1 pro S has mcu smoothing off most likely?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Demi9OD*
> 
> That's not really fair, he deserves some praise, and if he didn't get it, how would other companies know that his example was one that was appreciated by the community?


To be fair, for a first mouse as a company they did a decent job. It's simple, yet effective and does what it's supposed to do with little or no fuss.

Anyone using an FK2, Rival 100 or Kana should seriously consider this mouse. The difference in shape is minimal:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1611022/replacement-for-kana-v2/10#post_25510476

And coming from a Zowie there's more then just the better sensor... no more damn Huano switches lol.

The only thing I wish some "driverless" companies would consider is a simple (portable) piece of software that allows us to change a few basic things.

For the Revel I would like the ability to change the leds to on/off and perhaps (if this is at all possible) to change the dpi switcher to only cycle 3 or 4 dpi sets (I personally only use the 400 to 1600 range depending on the game).


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> now that summer is almost over and the sun is setting earlier


(•_•) / ( •_•)>⌐■-■ / (⌐■_■)

Anyway, now they just have to get the build quality above office mice tier.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> 16/25 @5ms :-( i am unworthy. gotta increase until i get 25/25 consistently i guess.
> that's a nice test though, cheers qsxcv
> no offence to peter or nixeus but i don't feel like we should be praising them much. i rather think other companies should take an example of a company listening to and communicating with customers at this level.
> it's not about what "the community" wants, it's about this place being a good one to get feedback from.


They gave support and added a bonus to the new firmware. Can't say that for most of the new players in the market. They deserve praise for that and listening to feedback.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> That's using the LÖVE engine? The program is only running at ~300 fps on my comp.
> 
> I actually have a spare photodiode, could do some measurements myself.


yup. i should rewrite it but as with most things, i'm not motivated enough/too lazy/occupied with other things.

main difficulty is amplifying the photodiode signal sufficiently to trigger the mcu with a single crt scanline. while keeping the bandwidth high enough


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> The only thing I wish some "driverless" companies would consider is a simple (portable) piece of software that allows us to change a few basic things.
> 
> For the Revel I would like the ability to change the leds to on/off and perhaps (if this is at all possible) to change the dpi switcher to only cycle 3 or 4 dpi sets (I personally only use the 400 to 1600 range depending on the game).


i like the software idea ofc

but for starters they could just offer an alternate firmware with every cpi step above 1600 deleted for example. so we dont have to cycle through all the steps so much. that would be great too, if software is out of the question right know.

dont know how much time it would take to do FWs with only following steps enabled:

FW1: 400/800 cpi
FW2: 400/800/1200 cpi
FW3: 400/800/1200/1600 cpi
etc

just an idea.. software would be the best thing though


----------



## SmashTV

Nah that's pushing out too much firmware on top of being selective about it.

Just drop software and let people do what they can on it. Don't need 10 firmware releases just for different CPI steps.


----------



## qsxcv

(not an entirely novel idea, but credits to wareya for introducing it to me):

use dpi button like a control key. hold dpi, scroll up does something, scroll down does something, left/right/middle clicks do something

so maybe like:
dpi + middle click = reset to 800dpi
dpi + scroll up = add 100dpi
dpi + scroll down = subtract 100dpi
dpi + right click = add 1000dpi
dpi + left click = subtract 1000dpi

and maybe
dpi + front side button = 3mm lod setting
dpi + rear side button = 2mm lod setting

and use the led for feedback somehow


----------



## m0uz

I had a sketchy idea of 'firmware generator' software where you could input settings into a GUI such as how many steps you wanted along with a colour (hex) value and it would create firmware files to flash to the mouse. Very tricky thing to do, probably, and you might as well just make normal software if you're thinking about doing something like that.


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> do you mean those ferrite things? are those actually useless? i've seen a lot of cables with that stuff around it, including mice


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> I had a sketchy idea of 'firmware generator' software where you could input settings into a GUI such as how many steps you wanted along with a colour (hex) value and it would create firmware files to flash to the mouse. Very tricky thing to do, probably, and you might as well just make normal software if you're thinking about doing something like that.


Yeah, that is pretty much just a worse way of doing software. You shouldn't need to flash the whole firmware to change dpi steps.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> (not an entirely novel idea, but credits to wareya for introducing it to me):
> 
> use dpi button like a control key. hold dpi, scroll up does something, scroll down does something, left/right/middle clicks do something
> 
> so maybe like:
> dpi + middle click = reset to 800dpi
> dpi + scroll up = add 100dpi
> dpi + scroll down = subtract 100dpi
> dpi + right click = add 1000dpi
> dpi + left click = subtract 1000dpi
> 
> and maybe
> dpi + front side button = 3mm lod setting
> dpi + rear side button = 2mm lod setting
> 
> and use the led for feedback somehow


I think the most important one to me if I got this mouse would be a way to remove DPI steps. Usually I just disable all steps except 800 if given the option because that is what I use.

Edit: Oh wait or were you saying to only have 1 step that you adjust like that? I was thinking you would adjust each step like this.


----------



## costilletas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> The Rubberized Black sold out pretty quick. They just got new inventory and should be available in the next day or so...


Don't tell me that after ordering a glossy one ;(

I just checked Hotelk's website, they have a "mcu workshop" which includes a template for a gaming mouse application with everything people are asking for here in terms of cutomization, just saying, maybe someone here could make something work with some help from nixeus, I can't


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Nah that's pushing out too much firmware on top of being selective about it.
> 
> Just drop software and let people do what they can on it. Don't need 10 firmware releases just for different CPI steps.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but if the mouse is designed for no software in first place, it's not supposed to have any on-board memory to store the settings, aside from mcu flashable rom.


----------



## lucariello

Hi guys, I landed here while pursuing an education in techonology and modding. This forum is just amazing.

I'd like to ask your opinion.

In my country (Italy), the Revel costs 43€ (~48$) while the G Pro costs almost the double: 82€ (~91.5$).

The reason why I'm considering to buy a new mouse is that my 2 years old G100s left click is starting to miss hits.

Considering that I'm used to the G100s shape and weight (which I like a lot), and that this would be my first 336* sensor, do you think I'll be ok with the Revel?

Or the +50% overprice for a G Pro is still worthy?

Plus, my hands don't sweat: if I choose the Revel, which version would you suggest (glossy/rubberized)?

TIA


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lucariello*
> 
> Hi guys, I landed here while pursuing an education in techonology and modding. This forum is just amazing.
> 
> I'd like to ask your opinion.
> 
> In my country (Italy), the Revel costs 43€ (~48$) while the G Pro costs almost the double: 82€ (~91.5$).
> 
> The reason why I'm considering to buy a new mouse is that my 2 years old G100s left click is starting to miss hits.
> 
> Considering that I'm used to the G100s shape and weight (which I like a lot), and that this would be my first 336* sensor, do you think I'll be ok with the Revel?
> 
> Or the +50% overprice for a G Pro is still worthy?
> 
> Plus, my hands don't sweat: if I choose the Revel, which version would you suggest (glossy/rubberized)?
> 
> TIA


coming from the g100s the g pro will almost certainly be a perfect fit. As someone who has had trouble adjusting to certain shapes id suggest sticking to a shape you're perfectly fine with (especially if you're on a tight budget) rather than buying the revel and regretting it later. I've nothing but good things to say about the revel but shape is probably the most important factor in picking a mouse.

I personally loved the xai/sensei shape and have been waiting for ages for a 3360 version of it, so picking the revel was a no brainer for me.


----------



## CorruptBE

Either one will be an upgrade sensor wise but you should ask yourself: Do I want do adjust to the new shape? Or do I want to save the money?


----------



## Ligh0ff

Don't worry guys just normal italian rage... when i buy the glossy white on amazon the black version is available...............
anyways i only hope the buttons are stiff enought,because i hate miss shooting in cs,or accidentally bust 2 shot when i want to tap...it drives me crazy


----------



## costilletas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ligh0ff*
> 
> Don't worry guys just normal italian rage... when i buy the glossy white on amazon the black version is available...............
> anyways i only hope the buttons are stiff enought,because i hate miss shooting in cs,or accidentally bust 2 shot when i want to tap...it drives me crazy


Same happened to me, but the black one was avaliable just the day after i purchased mine, not 4 days >).


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ligh0ff*
> 
> Don't worry guys just normal italian rage... when i buy the glossy white on amazon the black version is available...............
> anyways i only hope the buttons are stiff enought,because i hate miss shooting in cs,or accidentally bust 2 shot when i want to tap...it drives me crazy


They're kind of stiff but unlike Zowies they use omrons and I find them much easier to spam with (pistols for instance).


----------



## lucariello

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Either one will be an upgrade sensor wise but you should ask yourself: Do I want do adjust to the new shape? Or do I want to save the money?


It depends. My fear is that it might be not worth to spend the double just to get a sensor slightly better and a familiar shape, while maybe I could adapt easily to a shape not so drastically different: as far as I can tell, just the head and the length a little would be new. Right?


----------



## costilletas

Your fear is not worth it unless you play at 5k dpi. Shape? Nixeus is closer to your previous mouse. The only reason to go with the logitech mouse is firmware or "overall build quality".


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lucariello*
> 
> It depends. My fear is that it might be not worth to spend the double just to get a sensor slightly better and a familiar shape, while maybe I could adapt easily to a shape not so drastically different: as far as I can tell, just the head and the length a little would be new. Right?


Depends on how you grip your mouse. I for once can't stand G100s because i'm gripping mice in the middle (where G100s is widest), but i'm very happy with hourglass shaped mice like Revel.


----------



## lucariello

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Depends on how you grip your mouse.


My hand is about 18 cm / 7.1 inches. I happen to mix between fingertip (more) and palm (less), and I've never been bothered using the G100s with both. Actually, the G100s was also my first gaming mouse, so it's not that I have a baseline to compare to.


----------



## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *costilletas*
> 
> Your fear is not worth it unless you play at 5k dpi. Shape? Nixeus is closer to your previous mouse. The only reason to go with the logitech mouse is firmware or "overall build quality".


In what world is the revel closer to the g100s than the g pro? They are almost the least similar ambi shapes currently avaliable. One is a small egg shaped mouse the other is a large-ish mouse that is wider at the ends.


----------



## costilletas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> In what world is the revel closer to the g100s than the g pro? They are almost the least similar ambi shapes currently avaliable. One is a small egg shaped mouse the other is a large-ish mouse that is wider at the ends.


Sorry, my mind replaced g pro with g403


----------



## lucariello

Hey guys, I had the chance to try the Revel, glossy white version.

Well, I was positively impressed by the glossy surface: it assures to grip well and if you don't sweat your hand a lot (like me), it's perfect.

As for the shape, sure it's different from my G100s. Precisely, I sense the difference in length and with the higher back, while the head, even if flatter, did not feel different to me.

The R/L click buttons are stiffer and louder than the G100s, but it's not an issue to me: the difference is slight.

What I don't like is the scroll wheel: it's noisy like a cheap mouse's and harder than the Logitech one. I definitely prefer the latter. But considering the price, a little flaw is acceptable.

Regarding the firmware, I'd like to have an option for 2400 DPI (why that big gap between 2000 and 3200?) and an option to turn off led flashing or to set it to a fixed luminosity.

Overall, I was satisfied with the mouse and decided to buy it.

My score:

Build quality: 8.5
Firmware: 9
Price/quality ratio: 9.5

Overall: 9 out of 10.


----------



## wareya

>(why that big gap between 2000 and 3200?)

The sensor has inherent smoothing at all DPI levels above 2000. The forced 2000 option is so that users have the highest possible zero smoothing option available to them. Not sure why they don't just add another DPI level but I guess it's not a big deal.


----------



## Demi9OD

The glossy is just as grippy with my clammy hands. I've always preferred glossy as it doesn't absorb any oils and can be wiped down with an alcohol wipe any time to bring it right back to brand new.


----------



## Ligh0ff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lucariello*
> 
> Hey guys, I had the chance to try the Revel, glossy white version.
> 
> Well, I was positively impressed by the glossy surface: it assures to grip well and if you don't sweat your hand a lot (like me), it's perfect.
> 
> As for the shape, sure it's different from my G100s. Precisely, I sense the difference in length and with the higher back, while the head, even if flatter, did not feel different to me.
> 
> The R/L click buttons are stiffer and louder than the G100s, but it's not an issue to me: the difference is slight.
> 
> What I don't like is the scroll wheel: it's noisy like a cheap mouse's and harder than the Logitech one. I definitely prefer the latter. But considering the price, a little flaw is acceptable.
> 
> Regarding the firmware, I'd like to have an option for 2400 DPI (why that big gap between 2000 and 3200?) and an option to turn off led flashing or to set it to a fixed luminosity.
> 
> Overall, I was satisfied with the mouse and decided to buy it.
> 
> My score:
> 
> Build quality: 8.5
> Firmware: 9
> Price/quality ratio: 9.5
> 
> Overall: 9 out of 10.


is the scroll wheel tactile? are the steps well defined? (for switching weapon) if it is then it is THE best buy in the price range 40/60
stiff clicks,3360,safe shape,rubber cable (for me it's a pro),good overall quality.

my glossy white revel will arrive in 2 day,as soon as i get it,i will do 3/4 match on cs go and post my experience with this mouse


----------



## Demi9OD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ligh0ff*
> 
> is the scroll wheel tactile? are the steps well defined? (for switching weapon) if it is then it is THE best buy in the price range 40/60
> stiff clicks,3360,safe shape,rubber cable (for me it's a pro),good overall quality.
> 
> my glossy white revel will arrive in 2 day,as soon as i get it,i will do 3/4 match on cs go and post my experience with this mouse


The scroll wheel is pretty good. Well defined steps and a nice feeling m3 click. The deadzone between steps is a little loose though, and it is possible get an an extra scroll in the same direction as the last one. I've never had it scroll the opposite way from the last one on accident though.


----------



## lucariello

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ligh0ff*
> 
> is the scroll wheel tactile? are the steps well defined? (for switching weapon) if it is then it is THE best buy in the price range 40/60


Yes and yes, but personally I'd have liked it a bit softer. Anyway it's undoubtedly noisy, at least in my case when up scrolling.

But apart from these trifling details, I definitively agree on the fact that this is a best buy for it's price range.

Maybe the only objective flaw could be the one year only warranty.


----------



## bond10

Is the rubberized version the same rubber as the DM1 Pro?


----------



## Ligh0ff

Just arrived today played 2 hours of cs go,great mouse plug and play,400 dpi already here,the buttons are tactile as i wanted









but the only thing wrong with the glossy white is that it get dirty very easly,after just 2h of gameplay i had to clean it beacuse it was already dirty (sweat,dead skin)

i think i will return it and get the black one,are the click the same? beacuse i heard that on the white one the click are stiff (as i want/love) beacuse of the shell,are they just identical?


----------



## Moohlord

I actually like glossy surfaces because they are so easy to wipe off compared to most coatings which soak in finger oils.


----------



## Ligh0ff

i don't like it that much,my hand sweat a lot and after i cleaned it i have to do it another time in just 1 day


----------



## geoxile

Is this suitable for someone who's favorite mouse is the Logitech G9/X (with the smaller grip)? I'm looking for a decent mouse to carry on me on the go.


----------



## Bucake

very different shapes. doesn't mean you won't like it, but if you are specifically looking for something similar to the G9 then this mouse isn't going to do it


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Just picked one of the up from amazon.us

Feet are fine.
Thumb button placement is not in the way as expected. Though they depress far past activation which is a minor gripe.
Sensor feels better than the 3310 implementations I've tried but a little different than the G303 I've been using.
Matte coating is nice. Side coating isn't as slippery with dry hands as I thought it would be.
Main clicks tactility is slightly uneven but no hang ups or sticking.
Scroll wheel is super nice.
Really surprised by 40-45 usd price point.









Out of the box the cord is angled upward and I hang the slack over the back of my monitor anyway but I can see this specific polymer possibly causing drag in the future for me and out of box for others.


----------



## KipH

I need a new mouse. How is this one holding up? I am hard on mice


----------



## qsxcv

i haven't used it since doing this review so can i just send you it since supposedly we're not keeping it anyway


----------

