# If you were to build a radiator....



## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

...how would you do it? Can it be done?

I'm considering attempting to build a radiator. I'm looking at the four 5.25" bays that are completely unused in my dedicated [email protected] rig. I'd like to tap into this potential and attempt to build a custom radiator.

I'm looking for thoughts, ideas, etc.

My case:


*UPDATE 6/6/2012*
My father has informed me that he can get me as much aluminum sheets as needed but can't guarantee a certain size. He swung by my house last week and dropped off about 20 feet of spare pipe he acquired at work.

I'm going to take him up on his offer of the aluminum sheets in various sizes and build a working prototype to test functionality. Once/if this proves successful I will design one to be fit within the 5.25" bays.


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Preliminary Design:


Update (05/20/2012)

Google Sketchup:




Sample pack/kit of various size aluminum sheets from Amazon:


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## ramicio

Anything can be done, but doing something one-off that needs this level of precision is always a waste of time and money because of the equipment required. The best bet is to just find the closest thing in size that already exists.


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramicio*
> 
> Anything can be done, but doing something one-off that needs this level of precision is always a waste of time and money because of the equipment required. The best bet is to just find the closest thing in size that already exists.


Thanks for your input. However, I'm not terribly concerned about purchasing equipment I live very close to a harbor freight and I can buy a garage full of tools for $100


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## twich12

just like this...


solder fins to a tube

edit: make sure the water only contacts copper or brass and the tricky/time consuming part is soldering ALL those fins on perfectly spaced

edit2: im excited about this... super subbed, maybe you can stagger the pipes like most cpu coolers do!
top down view o=tube
interior
o o o
o o
front


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## mr one

Or.... go with something like this one... Simple and you can do that look of old car rad


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## twich12

this just in from bit-tech (6 year old thread) someone that made their own rad! that is what i was thinking about since the 5.25 bays are plenty wide


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twich12*
> 
> just like this...
> 
> solder fins to a tube
> edit: make sure the water only contacts copper or brass and the tricky/time consuming part is soldering ALL those fins on perfectly spaced
> edit2: im excited about this... super subbed, maybe you can stagger the pipes like most cpu coolers do!
> top down view o=tube
> interior
> o o o
> o o
> front


Solder eh? I could easily do that. However my concern is the thermal conductivity of the solder:


I shall investigate! Worst case I'll buy a cheap electric welder








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twich12*
> 
> this just in from bit-tech (6 year old thread) someone that made their own rad! that is what i was thinking about since the 5.25 bays are plenty wide


Reading now! Thanks


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## mr one

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarlosSpiceyWeiner*
> 
> Solder eh? I could easily do that. However my concern is the thermal conductivity of the solder:
> 
> I shall investigate! Worst case I'll buy a cheap electric welder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reading now! Thanks


Go with SnCu, im using it for soldering, and only this one







and look at it thermal conductivity


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## Tsumi

The hard part is making the tiny channels for the water to go through. The smaller channels you have, the more effective you will be at transferring heat from the water, because the water in the middle tends to stay in the middle. That's why some radiators market "dimples" to induce turbulence in the water flow.

I bet their tiny thin fins aren't exactly easy to put on either. The thinner the fin, the more effective it is at heat transfer, and the less it restricts airflow. The fin design of radiators is completely different from what is used on heatsinks. Distances between the water channels are relatively short, while for heatpipes, the distances are significantly longer.


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## ramicio

You can make a radiator with hand tools, but it's going to be crap and inefficient because you just aren't going to get the surface area of something that's manufactured by machine. You just aren't going to make a radiator with hand tools that will compete with something you can just buy. I don't care what you accomplish. It won't change the fact that the end result will be crappy, and that the whole thing is ******ed and a complete waste of time and money. The only proving wrong of me you'll do is in your own mind, because it's only your own standards you are having to meet.


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mr one*
> 
> Go with SnCu, im using it for soldering, and only this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and look at it thermal conductivity


Yeah I saw this post







Where did you pick it up at? I'm looking on amazon and can't find any....


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## sugarhell

Why you dont take a car rad and build something similar. Or mod the car's rad?


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## Krahe

Am wondering if copper wire wrapped around a copper pipe would work, might be easier than fins, sort of like this (excuse my crappy gimp skills)









You could maybe hold in place with solder and alternate each wire to a different side of the pipe.


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## mr one

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarlosSpiceyWeiner*
> 
> Yeah I saw this post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you pick it up at? I'm looking on amazon and can't find any....


i got this one from local electronics shop, try at
radioshack or something like that, as i see radioshack has with silver
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062725
but ih has too low concentration of silver so rad soldering
this what i found

and also this
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/solder-sn-cu.html


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## Paradigm84

I'll be interested to see how this turns out. The only thing that would even possibly work that I could personally do would be getting a large sheet of copper and bending it many times to make something resembling a crude fin array, then cutting holes just big enough to fit the pipe through but small enough so the fin array touches the pipe. Not entirely sure how well this would work but it would be interesting.


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Why you dont take a car rad and build something similar. Or mod the car's rad?


Do they make car rads small enough to fit into a 5.25" bay? If the do that's cool. But I'm kinda itching to build one from scratch








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krahe*
> 
> Am wondering if copper wire wrapped around a copper pipe would work, might be easier than fins, sort of like this (excuse my crappy gimp skills)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You could maybe hold in place with solder and alternate each wire to a different side of the pipe.


Not a bad idea, I didn't think of this. I'll add this to my growing list of "build and test"








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mr one*
> 
> i got this one from local electronics shop, try at
> radioshack or something like that, as i see radioshack has with silver
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062725
> but ih has too low concentration of silver so rad soldering
> this what i found
> and also this
> http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/solder-sn-cu.html


Thank you for the links!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Paradigm84*
> 
> I'll be interested to see how this turns out. The only thing that would even possibly work that I could personally do would be getting a large sheet of copper and bending it many times to make something resembling a crude fin array, then cutting holes just big enough to fit the pipe through but small enough so the fin array touches the pipe. Not entirely sure how well this would work but it would be interesting.


I have a few thoughts, I'm going to try a couple of angles and experiments...we'll see which method works!

I'll be swinging by Home Depot in the next couple of hours


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## mr one

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarlosSpiceyWeiner*
> 
> Do they make car rads small enough to fit into a 5.25" bay? If the do that's cool. But I'm kinda itching to build one from scratch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad idea, I didn't think of this. I'll add this to my growing list of "build and test"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the links!
> I have a few thoughts, I'm going to try a couple of angles and experiments...we'll see which method works!
> I'll be swinging by Home Depot in the next couple of hours


thats only thing i could help you







and update us as soon as you can







i really interested in this kinda research


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## Tsumi

As I recall, there were several favorite heater cores (not the main radiators, but the secondary radiators used to heat your core) that worked perfectly with 120mm fans. Since 120mm fans easily fit in 5.25" drive bays, there's a chance those would fit as well.

Good luck with your endeavor. You should make one with and one without dimples in the tubing, to see if there's really any effect as some manufacturers claim they do.


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## twich12

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramicio*
> 
> No, a terrible parent is one who tells their kid that they can do anything as long as they are happy, instead of trying to help them find and hone their natural skill, so they will be successful and actually contribute to move the human race forward. A bad parent thinks only happiness matters, rather than teaching their kid right or wrong. We are going backwards with all of these hack artists and society only concerned about people being happy instead of doing the right thing and trying to actually amount to something in life. What they are pushing is selfish happiness, not true happiness and actually doing something for anyone but one's self. Now if you want to be a hypocrite turd and trash this guy's thread just as much as I am, do so by replying here, or you can just take this to PM and argue with me that way.


im still a little curious as to what special machinery is required for making a rad, if your not mass producing and dont mind putting the time in then you could easily make a great looking and effective rad. all you need are fins and some coppper pipes and then wrap the edges in sheet metal so you dont see the ends. Heck you can even make a copper/brass res at the end that feeds into half the tubes, then have it sent back up on the other side of the res (2 pass rad). built in and made of / wrapped in pretty sheet metal

front view
Lres Rres
l l l l l l
l l l l l l
l l l l l l
LL V J J


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## mr one

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twich12*
> 
> im still a little curious as to what special machinery is required for making a rad, if your not mass producing and dont mind putting the time in then you could easily make a great looking and effective rad. all you need are fins and some coppper pipes and then wrap the edges in sheet metal so you dont see the ends. Heck you can even make a copper/brass res at the end that feeds into half the tubes, then have it sent back up on the other side of the res (2 pass rad). built in and made of / wrapped in pretty sheet metal
> front view
> Lres Rres
> l l l l l l
> l l l l l l
> l l l l l l
> LL V J J


good idea


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## greymonk

You could use many smaller tubes made from soft copper and crush them flatter. This could improve water/copper surface area and increase turbulence. Or you could totally go away from fins altogether and use larger soft copper and crush the out sides of the tube leaving a small hole down the middle. The crushed copper will become fins.


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Thanks for all of the input guys! I was talking with my dad over the weekend(he's a drafter and mechanical engineer) I need to get a drill press and a few other tools before I begin. I've done research and I can either melt the copper together to the fins, weld it, or use silver solder. I don't have a welder but I'm willing to purchase one.

I need to find a place that sells thin copper sheets, home depot does not have them. They did have aluminum sheets but they were expensive, not to mention aluminum has much lower thermal conductivity.

Updated from my phone, might be spelling errors.


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## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarlosSpiceyWeiner*
> 
> Thanks for all of the input guys! I was talking with my dad over the weekend(he's a drafter and mechanical engineer) I need to get a drill press and a few other tools before I begin. I've done research and I can either melt the copper together to the fins, weld it, or use silver solder. I don't have a welder but I'm willing to purchase one.
> I need to find a place that sells thin copper sheets, home depot does not have them. They did have aluminum sheets but they were expensive, not to mention aluminum has much lower thermal conductivity.
> Updated from my phone, might be spelling errors.


If you have access to a butane/propane/acetylene torch, I'd get silver solder (that one that's 95% Pb 5% Ag) and solder the fins to the copper lines with that.

It has an incredible mechanical strength, and due to the silver on the mix, the thermal conductivity is anywhere near bad.


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## gdesmo

Go to roofing supplier, copper sheets are used for flashing and eavestroughs. No need for silver solder, just use lead-free solder. When building your core cut strips of copper width of bay x 35 mm- counting on 8-12 fins per inch, so approx 50 to 80 strips(lots of fun)- drill series of holes along strips for copper tubing making sure hole is a tiny bit smaller than tubing so that you create an interference fit- you want the best mechanical bond as well as the solder, I would also suggest you pre solder all holes and tubing. When drilling stack as many of the strips as possible and then drill first hole, stick a dowel or tube in first hole to keep strips aligned and keep drilling the rest. You will have to press the copper tube in, use hardened copper not soft. BTW source your tube and copper fittings before you start your drilling so that you don`t space the tubes too close to each other and have difficulty hooking them up to each other. It will be a fun but rewarding project, Best of luck ! PS I hate negative trolls.


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## PCCstudent

In regards to making something fit your intentions instead of buying something made to do the job intended. Back in the 70's the company I was working for got an order for a new piece of equipment.We made aircraft ground support equipment.Mainly belt loaders (the moving belt that transports the luggage) lavatory service vehicles and double-ups (basicaly a box that can reach up to the top of the tail). The new piece of equipment was a truck outfitted to clean the carpet inside the plane.

We needed hot water,everyone knows catalytic converters get hot.The lead engineer had this idea that we were going to wrap copper tubing around the catalytic converter to heat the water. No matter what we did (tubing size,tubing placement,pump parameters) nothing we did would allow the water to get much over 110F. The machine did not do a very good job at cleaning the carpet,the water was simply not hot enough. This engineer wasted a lot of time and cost us a lot of money trying to be clever and not simply heating the water in a more conventional way. Sometimes you simply have to admit your idea is bunk.


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## iCrap

Subbed for this


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## Tyreal

Here are some suggestions if you really want to build your own rad.

when using a tube bender fill the tubes with sand packed nicely to prevent the tube from narrowing and getting the wavy ribbed badness on the inside of the bend.
thinner the copper the better it will transfer heat from water to tube to fin to air.
high fin density, soldered (good luck with this one)

buy your supplies at a rad shop, ask what they suggest for solder. they might have some to sell you.
I would suggest talking with a rad shop or two or three or a dozen to find one that will work with you(charge you) to custom design one.

PS if you need any advice or opinions you can ask here, I am a very skilled customizer, welder(Oxy-acetylene and MIG), bodyman, mechanic, electronics repair, etc.. etc..


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## Tyreal

PS if you need any advice or opinions you can ask here, I am a very skilled customizer, welder(Oxy-acetylene and MIG), bodyman, mechanic, electronics repair, etc.. etc..


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## Schmuckley

I made my own "radiator" It makes the res water over 10c below ambient








It did involve Harbor Freight,too :







:
Umm..but it's not fitting into some drive bays









Maybe a TEC plate might be a "cooler" project?


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## gdesmo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Schmuckley*
> 
> I made my own "radiator" It makes the res water over 10c below ambient
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It did involve Harbor Freight,too :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :
> Umm..but it's not fitting into some drive bays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a TEC plate might be a "cooler" project?


You must be a magician to make a rad that goes below ambient.


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## Carniflex

Hm - Interesting idea. What I would do - I would get good pile of small and reasonably thin copper pipes, say, about 3mm ID or so, figure out the ID of my tubing and then use approx two or three times the surface area of these pipes in parallel for making the rad reasonably low restriction. I probably would not bother hammering them flat (as its usually done for dropping an air resistance, you can use just stronger fans). I would try to aim for about 4 passes through the fins.

Soldering would probably be a bit and time-consuming but I'm sure it could be managed with some dedication.

You will not save money that way, considering the relatively low prices of premade stuff but it should do the trick.

I think it would be easier to just mod some existing rad, for example Alphacool full copper one. Or use that modular (although very expencive) radiator system. But thats me, nothing wrong in wanting to do something with your own hand.

If you are already willing to go through the trouble of building that kind of stuff perhaps your energy would yield better results (temperature wise) if you would just build a custom case holding a larger premade rad ? Say, for example a case where instead of one of the side-panels you have Nova 1080 radiator (it's a 9x120 mm one, approx 125$).


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

So I've been researching materials that have decent thermal conductivity (in physics Thermal Conductivity is reference by the letter " k ").

I've discovered the following:

Aluminum has a k rating of: 204.3
At current market values aluminum costs $0.90 per pound.

Copper has a k rating of: 385
At current market values copper costs $3.66 per pound.

While Aluminum has only about half the thermal conductivity value compared to copper, it's about 1/4th the cost! I think what I will do for a prototype / test is build the first radiator out of aluminum, then move to copper.


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## mr one

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarlosSpiceyWeiner*
> 
> So I've been researching materials that have decent thermal conductivity (in physics Thermal Conductivity is reference by the letter " k ").
> I've discovered the following:
> Aluminum has a k rating of: 204.3
> At current market values aluminum costs $0.90 per pound.
> Copper has a k rating of: 385
> At current market values copper costs $3.66 per pound.
> While Aluminum has only about half the thermal conductivity value compared to copper, it's about 1/4th the cost! I think what I will do for a prototype / test is build the first radiator out of aluminum, then move to copper.


good decision to make first test prototype, waiting for some result


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## DuckieHo

Sure, you can do it.... but expect to send a few hundred dollars and a few hundred hours of tedious work with results that are worse that off-the-shelf parts.

Radiators are no by no means cutting edge technology and is quite mature. You are attempting to trial-test your way through radiator development instead of using established understanding of thermodynamics first to model a good design. Model first, then construct.

Materials are not as important as design.... and there are a dozen design parameters and requirement specifications that will impact performance.


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> I have to agree with ramicio. Sure, you can do it.... but expect to send a few hundred dollars and a few hundred hours of tedious work with results that are worse that off-the-shelf parts.
> Radiators are no by no means cutting edge technology and is quite mature. You are attempting to trial-test your way through radiator development instead of using established understanding of thermodynamics first to model a good design. Model first, then construct.
> Materials are not as important as design.... and there are a dozen design parameters and requirement specifications that will impact performance.


Sure it's mature....but I'm a DIY-er so I'm going to do it anyways.

Thanks for your pessimism









PS - I'm sure mine won't be as good as existing ones, but that's not the point. I homebrew, and I know my beer isn't as good as some out there, but because I made it I like it more. Same concept, different application


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## Paradigm84

If it's a personal project then it doesn't matter whether it's a good idea or not, the results will be something to learn from regardless of whether the rad actually works properly.

I would partially understand if you were trying to put these into production, but if it's just a one off thing for you to do then why should they care if you spend your own money.









Also using aluminium to test with is a good idea, it's ~2.4x lighter than copper, so you'll be getting more material for your money (in terms of physical size) to test with.


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## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> I have to agree with ramicio. Sure, you can do it.... but expect to send a few hundred dollars and a few hundred hours of tedious work with results that are worse that off-the-shelf parts.


With imagination, you can build a rad at the cost of the copper/solder. If you use a Kg of it, you've made a rad for around $15.

You need patience and imagination, that's it. No super magical powers.

I believe he can do it, if he takes his time, does things slowly, and thinks twice before doing each step.


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## goodtobeking

Subbing Carlos, I loved your Mineral oil experiments. This one sounds even cooler.

Although I do agree that it probably wont perform as well as an off the shelf radiator, but the sense of accomplishment after making your own, will offset your time involved and the lower performance of the radiator.

The AMS radiator by Aquacomputer would be an awesome design to follow, and would be even sweeter if you were able to improve on it. Then there would be no need for any solder

I like the idea of starting with aluminum, and with a small radiator that will fit in the 5.25 bays. But after you get the general process down, you should make a side panel sized radiator. That way even with a less efficient design, you would still get a lot of heat dissipation from it. Plus it would be way cool.


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## DuckieHo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarlosSpiceyWeiner*
> 
> Sure it's mature....but I'm a DIY-er so I'm going to do it anyways.
> Thanks for your pessimism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I'm sure mine won't be as good as existing ones, but that's not the point. I homebrew, and I know my beer isn't as good as some out there, but because I made it I like it more. Same concept, different application


If you really want to be a DIY-er.... why not just learn fluid/thermodynamics and CAD first?









It isn't pessimism... it is realism. Do the research upfront before feeling your way through the process as there are plenty of places to go the wrong way.

I would start with copper as it is easier to work with. Do you have a furnance and pipe extruder? Note that HOW you produce the metal shape does impact performance. (i.e. an extrude copper plate performs better than a die-cast plate)


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## PCCstudent

I did the homebrew thing years ago.It wasn't better brew but we were long term broke.


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## Schmuckley

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gdesmo*
> 
> You must be a magician to make a rad that goes below ambient.


Nah ...no magician...I just did a little reading







..and built something like this:

It's currently 78F in room.. res water = 62F Yes..My bong works good


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## The Pook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramicio*
> 
> You cannot buy tools (equipment) to make your own radiator that actually functions correctly for $100, nor even $1,000, and likely not even for $100,000. I'd question the quality of the tools you're fill a garage with for $100.












you'd be better off modding your bays to readily accept a radiator to look like your case was designed that way. unless you're retired and have a million in the bank collecting dust, you're being too optimistic with a DIY radiator.

We're not insulting your abilities, just your financial situation


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## gdesmo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Schmuckley*
> 
> Nah ...no magician...I just did a little reading
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..and built something like this:
> 
> It's currently 78F in room.. res water = 62F Yes..My bong works good


Why didn`t you say bong in the first place, you gave the impression that you built a radiator not another type of heat exchanger. I could say I built a rad system that cooled down freezing point and be telling the truth,when in fact I am using 2-400 watt TECs in a chiller loop. Bongs do work very well but it is not a radiator.


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## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> If you really want to be a DIY-er.... why not just learn fluid/thermodynamics and CAD first?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't pessimism... it is realism.


Duckie, this IS pessimism, sorry to say









You'd probably go crazy if you came over to my home and saw the incredible amount of stuff I've done with little calculus and lots of eyeballing that is working years after I made it.

We're talking about a computer watercooling radiator, not a 100kW HVAC evaporator stage


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## Oystein

Subbed! This will be awesome, looking forward to seeing what you'll come up with.

If it doesn't work too well you can always add a "normal" rad in addition.


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## shadman

Subbing as well.

Did you get a chance to look at that DIY thread on the first page, the one from bit0tech? I read through that whole thread (took 50 minutes), and I want to see something similar done here.

In fact, the way he did it was not even a big deal, he spent more time on the reservoir than the radiator.


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## tismon

This really is interesting. I have a hard time believing that a home brew rad will be as efficient as a manufactured one given the techniques used, but that won't matter as long as you can get it even somewhat close and more surface area.

I definitely think that this is possible, though that V2 or 3 will benefit greatly from what you learn on this go. I would love to dig out my thermo books and help, but I doubt that I will have time to do anything directly. So if you decide to do this an have a specific question, please post it as a reply and update the OP and I'll try to make a bit of time. Good luck!
(note: this is what _not_ pessimistic looks like)


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## The Pook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artikbot*
> 
> Duckie, this IS pessimism, sorry to say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'd probably go crazy if you came over to my home and saw the incredible amount of stuff I've done with little calculus and lots of eyeballing that is working years after I made it.
> We're talking about a computer watercooling radiator, not a 100kW HVAC evaporator stage


what exactly do you consider a radiator? unless you have a really abstract idea of a radiator, he *is* being realistic.

keep in mind shooting water in the air into a bucket will lower water temps, but it doesn't make it a radiator. if you're trying to build a radiator that resembles a real radiator, you won't be able to without a good bit of funds and expensive tools.


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## tismon

You could always take the rad from a broken H100 and find a way to seal the connections.


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## cpachris

What an adventurous idea. Subbed.

Here is my contribution idea. I call it "Ghetto Radiator".

Get about 10 rolls of pennies. Drill a small hole through all of them. Feed some copper pipe through the hole, and the pennies will serve as your fins! No solder, and the best part is that if you ever get hungry, you can take your rad down to McDonald's and use it to pay for a Big Mac!


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cpachris*
> 
> What an adventurous idea. Subbed.
> Here is my contribution idea. I call it "Ghetto Radiator".
> Get about 10 rolls of pennies. Drill a small hole through all of them. Feed some copper pipe through the hole, and the pennies will serve as your fins! No solder, and the best part is that if you ever get hungry, you can take your rad down to McDonald's and use it to pay for a Big Mac!


Hahahaha unfortunately pennies are not made of copper any more...mostly zinc (90%-ish). Thermal conductivity of zinc is fairly low.

However I did get a good laugh out of this









I'm nearly finished my basic design on "paper" of this. I did it on the google docs "drawing" tool which is terrible but all I have access to while on my lunch breaks at work. I'll design it on google sketchup this weekend! Soon as I finish my "basic" design on google docs drawing tool I"ll upload it


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## DuckieHo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artikbot*
> 
> Duckie, this IS pessimism, sorry to say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'd probably go crazy if you came over to my home and saw the incredible amount of stuff I've done with little calculus and lots of eyeballing that is working years after I made it.
> We're talking about a computer watercooling radiator, not a 100kW HVAC evaporator stage


No, it is not pessisism... it is realism.

Think about it.... radiators have been around for over 100 years and companies have access to better/faster fabrication techniques. Radiators themselves are not complicated being hunks of metal so there is little room for improvements other than tweaking fins, ID, OD, etc. The thermodynamic of it are very well understood as well so they are model-able.

Do you think someone could come up with a better design just by homebrewing?


----------



## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> No, it is not pessisism... it is realism.
> Think about it.... radiators have been around for over 100 years and companies have access to better/faster fabrication techniques. Radiators themselves are not complicated being hunks of metal so there is little room for improvements other than tweaking fins, ID, OD, etc. The thermodynamic of it are very well understood as well so they are model-able.
> Do you think someone could come up with a better design just by homebrewing?


Your pessimism will not sway my determination!


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## nicedart

If I was to build a radiator, and I was a GPU manufacturer, I would design a hybrid air/water cooler for my cards. It would have the typical fan/fins design, except in addition to that it would provide the opportunity to simply add it to a water loop.

In short, a waterblock (factory filled and capped) with rad fins and fans. If you wanted to add it to the loop, simply remove the caps, drain, and add your fittings.


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## gdesmo

Guys try and be constructive here ! Just try and realize that Carlos understands that his rad may not be perfect, but he will have built it himself and learn a bit about thermodynamics as a side benefit. Carlos keep at it don`t listen to the naysayers.


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## ramicio

Pennies 1982 and older are 95% copper. 1983 was a mix between the old and new. 1984 and up are all certainly only copper-plated zinc. They have to be weighed to determine which they are. Needless to say, I collect the old pennies because they are worth more than their face value.


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## cpachris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramicio*
> 
> Pennies 1982 and older are 95% copper. 1983 was a mix between the old and new. 1984 and up are all certainly only copper-plated zinc. They have to be weighed to determine which they are. Needless to say, I collect the old pennies because they are worth more than their face value.


That means the Ghetto Radiator is back in play if we use old pennies! And instead of a Big Mac, I think we trade it for a nice steak as long as copper prices hold.


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## ramicio

Using pennies with holes as fins on a tube is a dumb idea, though. There is just no surface area. There's a reason why fins on real radiators are paper thin.


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## cpachris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramicio*
> 
> Using pennies with holes as fins on a tube is a dumb idea, though. There is just no surface area. There's a reason why fins on real radiators are paper thin.


You do understand that the Ghetto Radiator is a joke, right?

In case you are unaware, you should know that every single one of your posts come across as negative, hateful and arrogant. If you think a thread is dumb....just move on. No one is forcing you to read it.


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## Quantum Reality

One thing I'd like to note is that there are different flow mechanisms in heat exchangers that can improve or worsen heat transfer. I don't remember the details, but the direction of the pipes and the fins does matter.


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## drbaltazar

ok r&d team:lets make a 1200w /mk graphene radiator,hose ,pump .the works!(grin)


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## mr one

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drbaltazar*
> 
> ok r&d team:lets make a 1200w /mk graphene radiator,hose ,pump .the works!(grin)


wait whaat?


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## DaXxJaPxX

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> No, it is not pessisism... it is realism.
> Think about it.... radiators have been around for over 100 years and companies have access to better/faster fabrication techniques. Radiators themselves are not complicated being hunks of metal so there is little room for improvements other than tweaking fins, ID, OD, etc. The thermodynamic of it are very well understood as well so they are model-able.
> Do you think someone could come up with a better design just by homebrewing?


well granted the chance of him revolutionizing the radiator world is very low, but its the desire to do such things that drives innovation. Things continue to evolve each year, and who knows, maybe OP will pull a Flemming and figure out some amazing new rad set up


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Alright so here is my SUPER preliminary drawing. I'll have to clean this up a bit and add many more details (I'm severly limited by Google Docs "Drawing" utility).



In the top left is a view as if looking at the case from the front. There would be pipes running through the center of this. A 120mm fan would exist immediately behind it pushing air outwards. Behind that fan another set of fins with pipes would exist and another fan. If there is room a third set of fins/pipes, and of course a fan will exist.

All of the fins will be connected by one loop of pipes that are bent/welded/soldered into place. The water would flow from the cpu water block to the external most group of fins cooling the hottest water with the coolest fins first, it would then flow to the middle set of fins, and again if there is room it will flow to the final set.

A radiator and pump will obviously exist somewhere in the loop.

PS- Don't use Google Docs drawing tool unless you don't have any other choice, it's impossible to draw pipes on here!!!


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## cpachris

What! No pennies!

Looking forward to seeing a prototype!


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## Oystein

I like the design! The challenge will likely be to get enough heat transfer from the pipes to the fins, no? I imagine cooling of the fins is the easy bit.


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## mr one

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarlosSpiceyWeiner*
> 
> Alright so here is my SUPER preliminary drawing. I'll have to clean this up a bit and add many more details (I'm severly limited by Google Docs "Drawing" utility).
> 
> In the top left is a view as if looking at the case from the front. There would be pipes running through the center of this. A 120mm fan would exist immediately behind it pushing air outwards. Behind that fan another set of fins with pipes would exist and another fan. If there is room a third set of fins/pipes, and of course a fan will exist.
> All of the fins will be connected by one loop of pipes that are bent/welded/soldered into place. The water would flow from the cpu water block to the external most group of fins cooling the hottest water with the coolest fins first, it would then flow to the middle set of fins, and again if there is room it will flow to the final set.
> A radiator and pump will obviously exist somewhere in the loop.
> PS- Don't use Google Docs drawing tool unless you don't have any other choice, it's impossible to draw pipes on here!!!


quite interesting, and a lot


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## DaXxJaPxX

that is a lot more impressive than what i expected to see. great work


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## IrishV8

I have also wondered this to some extent but more along the lines of what Aquacomputer did with single segments of copper pipe terminating into a delrin cap and having the cap redirect the flow to another pipe until you get to the outlet port.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14728/ex-rad-327/Aquacomputer_Airplex_Modularity_System_240_Radiator_-_Aluminum_Fins_-_Dual_Circuit_33007.html?tl=g30c95s160

Have a look there. that way you wouldn't have to worry about bending pipe and leave out some soldering you would just need a cnc machine to make create the channels needed in the delrin. Just my thoughts on this keep us informed here i am very interested in what the out come.


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## Cwalster

My personal opinion: trying to emulate what manufacturers do without their equipment is going to end poorly. The fins are probably going to turn out badly, simply because without good metalworking tools, they wont end up evenly cut or evenly spaced: as such, what about ditching them altogether and just use small diameter thin walled pipe? just make a field of tubes and you should get semi-decent surface area. They use this design for water heaters actually. This means you only have to make two end peices exact, then solder the pipes into place. Simple, hopefully effective, and should look good.









Five minute CAD render of the "field of tubes"


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## Oystein

Cwalster's idea is actually pretty good. That would be very simple to make. Of course, you can combine it with fins to get the best of both worlds, I guess.

I don't see why the fins need to be evenly cut or spaced, really. That should only matter for the cooling of the fins, no? Might get noisy, of course, and create turbulence, but anything else than that? By all means, I'm no expert, just using common sense.


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## mr one

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cwalster*
> 
> My personal opinion: trying to emulate what manufacturers do without their equipment is going to end poorly. The fins are probably going to turn out badly, simply because without good metalworking tools, they wont end up evenly cut or evenly spaced: as such, what about ditching them altogether and just use small diameter thin walled pipe? just make a field of tubes and you should get semi-decent surface area. They use this design for water heaters actually. This means you only have to make two end peices exact, then solder the pipes into place. Simple, hopefully effective, and should look good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Five minute CAD render of the "field of tubes"






another one saying that
Quote:


> trying to emulate what manufacturers do without their equipment is going to end poorly


and result is they dont get the point of DIY ( i was talking about random guys)


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## Cwalster

You want it to look good right? evenly spaced (or at least patterned) to me is a prerequisite to looking good.
The only tool i can think of to cut thin sheet on a hobby level budget is tin snips, and cutting a large amount of sheets, some with end up off. Then you have to drill them all identically, solder them identically, etc. Just seems like more trouble than its worth.


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## cpachris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cwalster*
> 
> The only tool i can think of to cut thin sheet on a hobby level budget is tin snips, and cutting a large amount of sheets, some with end up off. Then you have to drill them all identically, solder them identically, etc. Just seems like more trouble than its worth.


You wouldn't necessarily have to cut individual fins. You could use larger squares that will serve as the fins for multiple tubes, and just punch holes in the square for where the tubes pass through. As long as there is contact, there should be heat transfer.


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## tehwalris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *greymonk*
> 
> You could use many smaller tubes made from soft copper and crush them flatter. This could improve water/copper surface area and increase turbulence. Or you could totally go away from fins altogether and use larger soft copper and crush the out sides of the tube leaving a small hole down the middle. The crushed copper will become fins.


That's the best idea I think, squash small copper tubes into stripes where the water can get through. Also maybe you could bend it in a light zigzag shape and put them all next to each other. So kinda like this:

||========||
||\/\/\/\/\/\||
||/\/\/\/\/\/||
||\/\/\/\/\/\||
||/\/\/\/\/\/||
||\/\/\/\/\/\||
||==||==||==||
|| ||
|| ||

So each: / is a crushed pipe with enough space for water to get through.
\
/
\

The zigzag shape creates turbulance, and the pipes next to each other could be soldered for structure.

Whatever idea you choose, I'm really interested to see what it turns out like









Good luck


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## Oystein

Well, let's look at this in a simple way. The goal is to transfer as much heat as possible from a pipe to the environment. This is done by constantly blowing fresh air over the pipe, which transfers the heat in the pipe to the air which is then blown out of the way and replaced with cool air.

Ignoring the materials used, better thermal performance can be achieved by:

1. Increasing flow rate through pipe (since this is a closed loop)
2. Increasing air speed over pipe
3. Increasing temperature difference between air and pipe (i.e. cooler air)
4. Increasing pipe surface area that air blows over

Please correct me if I forgot anything important.

Now, for number 1, the thermal capacity of water is so much higher than for air that you will usually start to see diminishing returns after about 1.0-1.5 gpm. The radiator simply will not cool the water in the pipe that fast. That is with normal watercooling rads.

For number 2, you add a bigger fan, and/or improve air flow through the radiator. Some use slated fins for this (versus straight fins). Note that the same thing as for number 1 applies here. At a certain point the air will flow faster than it can cool the pipe, and adding more speed becomes useless.

For number 3 you make sure your case ventilation is good (or move to Norway).

Number 4 is the big one. One way is to use more fans over a longer stretch of the pipe. Another way to do this is like Cwalster suggested - splitting the pipe into many small pipes. Obviously the more numerous and smaller, the better. The squashing pipes idea would work too.

A different approach is to use fins. The goal with the fins is to make as much air as possible pass over them (more surface area between pipe and air). This is why they are typically thin, so that you get more air flowing per fin volume.

Using fins however adds another parameter - transferring heat from the pipe to the fin. Again, a larger surface area is obviously better. So you want a thick fin to make sure that you get the heat from the pipe into the fin (max surface area between fin and pipe), but you also want a thin fin so that you can have more air flowing over it. That is where you need to find the balance. It is useless to have 4000 thin fins if they are not heated by the pipe, and it is not optimal to have 3 huge fins that are hot, but that you are not able to cool.

Since this is a DIY, I assume the fins would be quite thick, since making thin fins is hard, and getting good thermal conductivity between thin fins and a pipe is even harder. You can always add some heatpipes in the fin arrays. These would not necessarily be connected to the water pipe at all, just be there to equalize the load across the fins.

Using fins is the most common solution for computer rads, and will work extremely well if you can pull it off, but it's obviously the hardest. I think I would try to combine solutions.


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## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaXxJaPxX*
> 
> that is a lot more impressive than what i expected to see. great work


Thanks! More to come. Wife and I are heading to Puerto Rico for vacation so I'll bring the laptop and work on my design on the flight.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oystein*
> 
> Well, let's look at this in a simple way. The goal is to transfer as much heat as possible from a pipe to the environment. This is done by constantly blowing fresh air over the pipe, which transfers the heat in the pipe to the air which is then blown out of the way and replaced with cool air.
> Ignoring the materials used, better thermal performance can be achieved by:
> 1. Increasing flow rate through pipe (since this is a closed loop)
> 2. Increasing air speed over pipe
> 3. Increasing temperature difference between air and pipe (i.e. cooler air)
> 4. Increasing pipe surface area that air blows over
> Please correct me if I forgot anything important.
> Now, for number 1, the thermal capacity of water is so much higher than for air that you will usually start to see diminishing returns after about 1.0-1.5 gpm. The radiator simply will not cool the water in the pipe that fast. That is with normal watercooling rads.
> For number 2, you add a bigger fan, and/or improve air flow through the radiator. Some use slated fins for this (versus straight fins). Note that the same thing as for number 1 applies here. At a certain point the air will flow faster than it can cool the pipe, and adding more speed becomes useless.
> For number 3 you make sure your case ventilation is good (or move to Norway).
> Number 4 is the big one. One way is to use more fans over a longer stretch of the pipe. Another way to do this is like Cwalster suggested - splitting the pipe into many small pipes. Obviously the more numerous and smaller, the better. The squashing pipes idea would work too.
> A different approach is to use fins. The goal with the fins is to make as much air as possible pass over them (more surface area between pipe and air). This is why they are typically thin, so that you get more air flowing per fin volume.
> Using fins however adds another parameter - transferring heat from the pipe to the fin. Again, a larger surface area is obviously better. So you want a thick fin to make sure that you get the heat from the pipe into the fin (max surface area between fin and pipe), but you also want a thin fin so that you can have more air flowing over it. That is where you need to find the balance. It is useless to have 4000 thin fins if they are not heated by the pipe, and it is not optimal to have 3 huge fins that are hot, but that you are not able to cool.
> Since this is a DIY, I assume the fins would be quite thick, since making thin fins is hard, and getting good thermal conductivity between thin fins and a pipe is even harder. You can always add some heatpipes in the fin arrays. These would not necessarily be connected to the water pipe at all, just be there to equalize the load across the fins.
> Using fins is the most common solution for computer rads, and will work extremely well if you can pull it off, but it's obviously the hardest. I think I would try to combine solutions.


Any idea on how to make a heat pipe? Is it just sealed with liquid(water?) inside?


----------



## tehwalris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarlosSpiceyWeiner*
> 
> Thanks! More to come. Wife and I are heading to Puerto Rico for vacation so I'll bring the laptop and work on my design on the flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea on how to make a heat pipe? Is it just sealed with liquid(water?) inside?


A heat pipe is just a solid metal pipe/cylinder









Edit: Preferably highly heat conductive (eg. copper)


----------



## Oystein

Yeah, just a solid metal rod. Copper works nice, or aluminium if you want to save costs


----------



## Ganf

Copper piping is easier to work with in my opinion.

You don't necessarily need to solder the fins to the pipe. A lot of radiators just have the pipe pressed through the fins. This is done by punching a hole slightly smaller than the pipe through the fin, usually twice the amount of space between the fins, which results in the excess fin material sleeving the pipe completely and the pipe not being directly exposed to the air. You can do it differently though if you like.

Manufacturers use a hydraulic press that pushes them through the entire stack of fins perfectly every time, but all you need is a 2 piece spacer to go under the fin being pressed and a wooden block to press down on. Yours won't end up nearly as neat as theirs, which have no tears in the fins where they were stretched over the pipe, but it will be more than adequate, and you can still solder them if you like by using a larger torch and blowing the solder into the back side of the fin after being pressed, which would fill any gaps and ensure a much higher conductivity with a lot less time wasted. You'd just push a bead of solder over the fin into the depression with the tip of the torch, and it would flow into every crevice like water. Same works with copper piping.

Note that you can still ripple your fins too just by building yourself a couple of press blocks and fastening them with some wing nuts. Place your material between them and tighten the wing nuts, which would preferably be on all 4 sides, and it'll come out perfect every time. It'll also help hide any wrinkles or such what you may "discover" while cutting them into shape.


----------



## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

For the record I'm terrible with Google Sketchup...for example I have no idea how to bend "pipes". Either way the pipes will connect in a fashion that allows the water to flow through. Also there may be more or less pipes. The red blocks are a placeholder for fans.




When I get back from vacation I'll begin actual building!

PS- I did this on an plane over the Atlantic...so if it's bad I blame my general lack of proper access to the interwebs


----------



## Oystein

That's pretty massive, I like it









Will water flow through all of those pipes, or are some heat pipes?


----------



## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oystein*
> 
> That's pretty massive, I like it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will water flow through all of those pipes, or are some heat pipes?


Not sure yet! I might end up building a few and trying different things.









EDIT:
Looking to purchase this sample kit (for the fins) to determine appropriate thickness:
http://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Sheet-Sample-Width-Length/dp/B000HKXX8E/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1337615351&sr=8-2


----------



## Cwalster

I wouldn't try to bend pipes that tightly. Depending on the diameter, you might be able to find U connectors that you solder on or you could make end blocks like aquacomputer radiators, though the end blocks might be more prone to leakage. Again the method really depends on the diameter of the tubing your looking at.


----------



## shadman

So how is this going? Is your vacation longer than a week and 4 days?


----------



## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shadman*
> 
> So how is this going? Is your vacation longer than a week and 4 days?


Sorry for the lack of updates. No it was only half a week!

I'm building my workshop ATM...not much really just a bench, and a few mounted tools (Vice, drill press, grinder, misc items). Once the bench is done the radiator will begin!


----------



## greymonk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> No, it is not pessisism... it is realism.
> Think about it.... radiators have been around for over 100 years and companies have access to better/faster fabrication techniques. Radiators themselves are not complicated being hunks of metal so there is little room for improvements other than tweaking fins, ID, OD, etc. The thermodynamic of it are very well understood as well so they are model-able.
> Do you think someone could come up with a better design just by homebrewing?


Well I'm a mechanical engineer, and I haven't busted out my calculator out for this yet. I certainly would if we were trying to optermize a product or peoples safety was involved. Until then there's nothing wrong with letting people brainstorm and have some fun.

As for the project, I like the idea of many small tubes (but I'd crush the sides a bit). You can do the bends by attaching two plates on each end. The first with holes to seal the tubes to, the second milled to make the turns. You could seal this with a gasket or even silicone caulking.


----------



## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

My father has informed me that he can get me as much aluminum sheets as needed but can't guarantee a certain size. He swung by my house last week and dropped off about 20 feet of spare pipe he acquired at work.

I'm going to take him up on his offer of the aluminum sheets in various sizes and build a working prototype to test functionality. Once/if this proves successful I will design one to be fit within the 5.25" bays.


----------



## chmodlabs

I'd recommend purchasing a ton of inexpensive baseboard heating radiator and soldering it together in a large stacked series with copper fittings etc. Your going to go out of your mind trying to make your own.

- chmodlabs


----------



## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

This is coming along very slowly. I've acquired enough spare metal sheets (a mixture of aluminum and copper) to begin a working prototype. However my work bench is not coming along as quickly as I had hoped! More to come.


----------



## Cloner

Any luck with your radiator?

I want to build a DIY radiator myself and have done some research. In your model you blow the air from one radiator to another - this is very inefficient. Even after the first rad the air will already be hot, ant it wont cool the second or third rad (unless you blow it really fast, which means noise). In other words, even a thin radiator already heats the air and gives away heat - there is no benefit of placing another rad in this hot air. What i found in several forums is that radiator performs better when the delta between air temp and water temp is maximized.

You rad also reminded me of another moder that made a DIY radiator - search for " Project: Hush! "

You might want to consider making a big but thin radiator that would be placed on the unused side of the PC case. Or even make this radiator a part of PC case (since you will be soldering any way) - no manufacturer will ever do it, they try do make everything modular. For this purpose the radiators of this design are more efficient:


----------



## CarlosSpiceyWeiner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cloner*
> 
> Any luck with your radiator?
> I want to build a DIY radiator myself and have done some research. In your model you blow the air from one radiator to another - this is very inefficient. Even after the first rad the air will already be hot, ant it wont cool the second or third rad (unless you blow it really fast, which means noise). In other words, even a thin radiator already heats the air and gives away heat - there is no benefit of placing another rad in this hot air. What i found in several forums is that radiator performs better when the delta between air temp and water temp is maximized.
> You rad also reminded me of another moder that made a DIY radiator - search for " Project: Hush! "
> You might want to consider making a big but thin radiator that would be placed on the unused side of the PC case. Or even make this radiator a part of PC case (since you will be soldering any way) - no manufacturer will ever do it, they try do make everything modular. For this purpose the radiators of this design are more efficient:


Nope life got in the way...school, work, more work...and we haven't moved yet so I haven't built my work shop! This project IS going to happen...but I have to take care of a few things first! Thanks for the interest and welcome to OCN


----------

