# [CHW] Mantle in BF4 up to 45% more performance



## jordanecmusic

if its 45% gain, then maybe thats what happened between bf3 and bf4...a 45% loss.


----------



## PureBlackFire

here's the article's source in English from good 'ol WCCF Tech.


----------



## keikei

Does the 45% translate to 45% more fps?


----------



## whtchocla7e

45% is decent number. Probably rounded up from 39% which was rounded up from 32% which was rounded up from 26% which was rounded up from 17% which was rounded up from 8%.

Anything on a marketing slide I take with a grain of salt.


----------



## Abs.exe

Now with 77% more bugs.


----------



## Newbie2009

45%? Yes please.


----------



## Scorpion49

I'm reading 45% *on an HSA APU*.. probably compared to Intel integrated solutions as thats what all of the other slides are talking about.


----------



## Ash568

ok need to get r9 280 soon


----------



## junkerde

up to 45% speed boost! *

*_only on AMD R9 290x models_


----------



## maarten12100

The slide is a repost and AMD has asked OCN to remove those slides until NDA lifts. but yes up to 45%


----------



## senna89

up to 45% means during best scenary.

However i think it is the classic words by AMD ....... super, hyper, enthusiast, ecc but never coming.


----------



## pokerapar88

I sense a lot of pessimism on some posts. More bugs? Why? The idea of Mantle is reducing the software communication and thus the possible bugs. Also, it helps to translate the coding into an easier broader spectrum so as to avoid unnecessary long times for code optimization and bug-solving. It is great and I think that if it even places 25% advantage on more powerful chips, it is still a great solution. And for the ones that have a slower CPU, it will be like day and night as there will be almost no CPU bottleneck. And these are the first stages of Mantle, they started aiming to 100K batches, but will push onto 300K.


----------



## sdlvx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> I sense a lot of pessimism on some posts. More bugs? Why? The idea of Mantle is reducing the software communication and thus the possible bugs. Also, it helps to translate the coding into an easier broader spectrum so as to avoid unnecessary long times for code optimization and bug-solving. It is great and I think that if it even places 25% advantage on more powerful chips, it is still a great solution. And for the ones that have a slower CPU, it will be like day and night as there will be almost no CPU bottleneck. And these are the first stages of Mantle, they started aiming to 100K batches, but will push onto 300K.


The problem is BF4 is a catastrophe and it's the flagship Mantle application.

I am excited about Mantle personally. I think AMD is a lot more likely to bring Mantle support to fglrx in Linux than Microsoft is to bring DirectX to Linux or for the FLOSS community to come up with their own implementation of DirectX.

However, BF4 being in the shape it is in is like your parents telling you you're finally getting a brand new car, and when you get it you find out it's the biggest lemon you've ever set your eyes on and although it's brand new, it barely makes it down the street.

Not to mention I don't care about BF4 on Linux, I'd like to see other games using Mantle instead.

Nitrous engine looks like it has more potential to show off Mantle power. I don't trust EA or DICE to effectively use Mantle as they're not even competent enough to release a game with good net code. What they have know makes actually hitting people feel like you're winning the lottery, because the odds of the net code registering your shots is so low.


----------



## nitrubbb

I wonder if minFPS will inch closer to avg FPS with mantle


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sdlvx*
> 
> The problem is BF4 is a catastrophe and it's the flagship Mantle application.
> 
> I am excited about Mantle personally. I think AMD is a lot more likely to bring Mantle support to fglrx in Linux than Microsoft is to bring DirectX to Linux or for the FLOSS community to come up with their own implementation of DirectX.
> 
> However, BF4 being in the shape it is in is like your parents telling you you're finally getting a brand new car, and when you get it you find out it's the biggest lemon you've ever set your eyes on and although it's brand new, it barely makes it down the street.
> 
> Not to mention I don't care about BF4 on Linux, I'd like to see other games using Mantle instead.
> 
> Nitrous engine looks like it has more potential to show off Mantle power. I don't trust EA or DICE to effectively use Mantle as they're not even competent enough to release a game with good net code. What they have know makes actually hitting people feel like you're winning the lottery, because the odds of the net code registering your shots is so low.


A bullet trajectory system like Arma has would be so good but then again to add that to these visuals would make it much harder on the hardware. (while most players want reasonably quick action)


----------



## huhh

Believe it when I see it.


----------



## Teh Bottleneck

That is interesting, but marketing slides are best taken with a grain of salt. Looking forward to seeing some independent benchmarks once the patch rolls out.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sdlvx*
> 
> The problem is BF4 is a catastrophe and it's the flagship Mantle application.
> 
> I am excited about Mantle personally. I think AMD is a lot more likely to bring Mantle support to fglrx in Linux than Microsoft is to bring DirectX to Linux or for the FLOSS community to come up with their own implementation of DirectX.
> 
> However, BF4 being in the shape it is in is like your parents telling you you're finally getting a brand new car, and when you get it you find out it's the biggest lemon you've ever set your eyes on and although it's brand new, it barely makes it down the street.
> 
> Not to mention I don't care about BF4 on Linux, I'd like to see other games using Mantle instead.
> 
> Nitrous engine looks like it has more potential to show off Mantle power. I don't trust EA or DICE to effectively use Mantle as they're not even competent enough to release a game with good net code. What they have know makes actually hitting people feel like you're winning the lottery, because the odds of the net code registering your shots is so low.


Agreed, I really don't care much about BF4 performance as I can already play in ultra at 60+ FPS but I would really like to see what's the real difference in gameplay, if there's an increased fluidness and when playing on 64 player maps there's no more CPU bottleneck !
If Mantle proves itself worthy with BF4 we will probably see it in MANY many other games and even if it brings a small improvement, it is quite welcome, especially for next-gen titles.


----------



## wolfxing

I think we should focus on the Mantle itself instead of how BF4 performance
if there is a 45% increase, then Mantle is changing the game


----------



## Aparition

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wolfxing*
> 
> I think we should focus on the Mantle itself instead of how BF4 performance
> if there is a 45% increase, then Mantle is changing the game


Well the only stats we have are iGPU benchmarks posted by the media. Hardly a real world view.
BF4 is currently the only known released program that Mantle is known to run on, albeit behind Dev doors.

If it can be successfully run on BF4 then we really should be excited about it.
The 45% increase again is just i GPU performance. Great if you are gaming with your APU.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aparition*
> 
> Well the only stats we have are iGPU benchmarks posted by the media. Hardly a real world view.
> BF4 is currently the only known released program that Mantle is known to run on, albeit behind Dev doors.
> 
> If it can be successfully run on BF4 then we really should be excited about it.
> The 45% increase again is just i GPU performance. Great if you are gaming with your APU.


I think the 45% of perf. improvement on APUs is mainly because of the weak CPU cores, and mantle is not only taking advantage of the GPU, but freeing CPU process (overhead) and thus eliminating bottlenecks. But it will definitely change FX 4000, 6000 and 8000 performance in CPU bound games too and it will give a smaller bump on non-bottlenecked rigs too.

Edit: it will also allow for a more seamless experience gaming with more CPU cores even if they are weaker. It will also eliminate CF issues once and for all (as stated in earlier slides).


----------



## Asus11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *senna89*
> 
> up to 45% means during best scenary.
> 
> However i think it is the classic words by AMD ....... super, hyper, enthusiast, ecc but never coming.


this

just like the bulldozer chip


----------



## ZealotKi11er

I really dont care how much performance Mantle brings really. What i like about Mantle is the games that will be possible because of it.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> I really dont care how much performance Mantle brings really. What i like about Mantle is the games that will be possible because of it.


No more cpu bottleneck is great but eventually even after Mantle reaches a million draw calls new more extreme games will emerge.


----------



## szeged

i dont play bf4, or any frostbite engine games







guess ill be missing out no matter what gpu i have

just like everyone will miss out because mantle will get pushed back for a year [email protected]


----------



## doomlord52

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *huhh*
> 
> Believe it when I see it.


Exactly this. And I want to see it on a real GPU, not an APU. Let's see 290x w/ Mantle vs. 290x w/o.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomlord52*
> 
> Exactly this. And I want to see it on a real GPU, not an APU. Let's see 290x w/ Mantle vs. 290x w/o.


This. And with a 5ghz 3930K etc.

You could probably get really awesome "_*up to*_" numbers if you ran 290X quadfire with an 8120 or something.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> This. And with a 5ghz 3930K etc.
> 
> You could probably get really awesome "_*up to*_" numbers if you ran 290X quadfire with an 8120 or something.


Wow Alatar is on a rampage.
Anyways will you be overclocking the A10-7850's to their limit?
Your benches should really give an idea on how much damage was done by the 28nm glofo SHP node. (Super High Performance yet potential performance is lowered by a lower OC potential...)


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Wow Alatar is on a rampage.
> Anyways will you be overclocking the A10-7850's to their limit?
> Your benches should really give an idea on how much damage was done by the 28nm glofo SHP node. (Super High Performance yet potential performance is lowered by a lower OC potential...)


I'm not interested in OCing AMD chips that can't do 8ghz.

Needless to say I've got a brand new 9370 sitting in a box next to my CVF.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> This. And with a 5ghz 3930K etc.
> 
> You could probably get really awesome "_*up to*_" numbers if you ran 290X quadfire with an 8120 or something.


Come on al. You just know they'll use a 5Ghz 8350


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> I'm not interested in OCing AMD chips that can't do 8ghz.
> 
> Needless to say I've got a brand new 9370 sitting in a box next to my CVF.


But you're going to try it right?


----------



## Seallone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *szeged*
> 
> i dont play bf4, or any frostbite engine games
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guess ill be missing out no matter what gpu i have
> 
> just like everyone will miss out because mantle will get pushed back for a year [email protected]


wow looks like its time to sell my 780t

O come on give AMD a chance. At least they pushing gaming forward.


----------



## Mrzev

Its definitely possible. Its follows the same logic why 8 year old hardware in consoles can run games that stress recent hardware.

If this is true, will developers use this without being paid to?

If it's an actual step forward... we can only hope.


----------



## SomeDooD

I'll take this with a huge grain of salt.


----------



## Seallone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Agreed, I really don't care much about BF4 performance as I can already play in ultra at 60+ FPS but I would really like to see what's the real difference in gameplay, if there's an increased fluidness and when playing on 64 player maps there's no more CPU bottleneck !
> If Mantle proves itself worthy with BF4 we will probably see it in MANY many other games and even if it brings a small improvement, it is quite welcome, especially for next-gen titles.


. Nividia Intell m$=xbox one sony ps4. POOR amd. software limitation. is why we all upgrade.any one played Call of duty ghost on 780 ti sli, what a joke. Im enjoying bf4, im going AMD.

dont need a tablet, dont use a car, don't stream. looks good tho,But on ADSL,8mbit (no Point) so,? im a gamer. Nvidia show's nothing apart moving away from gaming. Gysnc lol TN, car and tablets.


----------



## Seallone

good luck AMD, just get your softaware on steam. You might get me over to you for first time in 10 years,


----------



## Ecchi-BANZAII!!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sdlvx*
> The problem is BF4 is a catastrophe and it's the flagship Mantle application.


Then lets hope they manage to fix this because then it's all down hill from there.


----------



## Apexii22

So, for those of us that are already able to run the game on max detail with good frames, then who cares?

I guess this is good for low/mid range AMD players?


----------



## kzone75

http://www.amd.com/us/aboutamd/newsroom/Pages/ces-2014.aspx?cmpid=social_20140103_16580984


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Apexii22*
> 
> So, for those of us that are already able to run the game on max detail with good frames, then who cares?
> 
> I guess this is good for low/mid range AMD players?


4K UHD players or people with 3 way 1440P and of course the 1440P 120Hz players.
There are also some people that like to super sample on their 1080P monitors


Spoiler: super sampling on 1080P monitors


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> http://www.amd.com/us/aboutamd/newsroom/Pages/ces-2014.aspx?cmpid=social_20140103_16580984


Thanks I'm watching now

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND trueaudio part


----------



## maarten12100

3 new graphics cards presented by Matt









Ah mobile gpus


----------



## SlackerITGuy

They will have a live demo of Battlefield 4's Mantle build. Keep your eyes open.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> They will have a live demo of Battlefield 4's Mantle build. Keep your eyes open.


Desktop was running a 290x and the performance improvement was 45 % according to AMD.
AMD is on fire!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Desktop was running a 290x and the performance improvement was 45 % according to AMD.
> AMD is on fire!


Matt actually said up to 45% and it was running like 110/115 fps


----------



## kzone75

Interesting stuff. That's roughly how a press conference should be done.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Matt actually said up to 45% and it was running like 110/115 fps


Either way, that is very impressive


----------



## Aparition

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seallone*
> 
> . Nividia Intell m$=xbox one sony ps4. POOR amd. software limitation. is why we all upgrade.any one played Call of duty ghost on 780 ti sli, what a joke. Im enjoying bf4, im going AMD.
> 
> dont need a tablet, dont use a car, don't stream. looks good tho,But on ADSL,8mbit (no Point) so,? im a gamer. Nvidia show's nothing apart moving away from gaming. Gysnc lol TN, car and tablets.


What?
Nvidia released shadowplay which allows gamers to record and stream their games much more easily without killing cpu performance. It's just in beta and already shows great performance.
Besides there are still rumors mantle will work on Nvidia cards.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aparition*
> 
> What?
> Nvidia released shadowplay which allows gamers to record and stream their games much more easily without killing cpu performance. It's just in beta and already shows great performance.
> Besides there are still rumors mantle will work on Nvidia cards.


Shadowplay is great for non professional recording but the overal quality isn't really good enough for professionals. (not that those have to worry about cpu power anyways)

I think Mantle will work with Nvidia cards as far as the cpu part goes but well nothing is certain.


----------



## sQuetos

What gpu's from amd get mantle? 7000 series onwards?
I havent even taken a look at mantle... Anyone mind briefly explaining? lol


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sQuetos*
> 
> What gpu's from amd get mantle? 7000 series onwards?
> I havent even taken a look at mantle... Anyone mind briefly explaining? lol


Yes, HD 7000 series and up (All GCN cards).

Mantle, in short, is a low level API designed to remove decade old rendering techniques that's plaguing both DirectX and OpenGL right now (CPU will no longer have to spoon feed the GPU).


----------



## CyberWolf575

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Either way, that is very impressive


That is indeed very impressive. I am excited about this!


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Once you start to have cash and really buy the best GPU and CPU to get Max fps in games you realize that CPUs today are huge bottlenecks.


----------



## sQuetos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Yes, HD 7000 series and up (All GCN cards).
> 
> Mantle, in short, is a low level API designed to remove decade old rendering techniques that's plaguing both DirectX and OpenGL right now (CPU will no longer have to spoon feed the GPU).


Thanks, is it just a program that we install? And the only requirement is having a 7000 card sounds interesting hopefully it makes my 7870 a monster lol


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sQuetos*
> 
> Thanks, is it just a program that we install? And the only requirement is having a 7000 card sounds interesting hopefully it makes my 7870 a monster lol


it comes in the games that support it however BF4 will get it in an update.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sQuetos*
> 
> Thanks, is it just a program that we install? And the only requirement is having a 7000 card sounds interesting hopefully it makes my 7870 a monster lol


Nope, it's both a driver for your GPU and a software patch for the game.

How that will be distributed, that's still not set in stone at the moment AFAIK.

EDIT:

1st youtube video of the Mantle world premiere (average-ish quality):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los

I actually didn't notice those huge drops in frame rate when watching live, insanely weird, frame rate was +100 FPS most of the time but it had dips into the 50s and 70s.


----------



## PureBlackFire

so choppy, just like the DirectX version. DICE really needs to fix this game already. Hope the next title with Mantle is ready to launch soon, because as fate would have it they couldn't have picked a worse game to showcase the tech first.


----------



## Hardpro

The stream quality was bad







I had like 18 fps on the live stream...


----------



## Scorpion49

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> I actually didn't notice those huge drops in frame rate when watching live, insanely weird, frame rate was +100 FPS most of the time but it had dips into the 50s and 70s.


Youtube has some weird frame smoothing crap it does that makes everything look choppy unless you deselect it when you upload the video, could be the problem. I'm not really sure what the improvement was though, looks exactly how it played on my 290.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorpion49*
> 
> Youtube has some weird frame smoothing crap it does that makes everything look choppy unless you deselect it when you upload the video, could be the problem. I'm not really sure what the improvement was though, looks exactly how it played on my 290.


It was definitely in game mate.

You could see both the FPS drop in the counter and 2 huge yellow spikes in the performance overlay they had running there as well.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PureBlackFire*
> 
> so choppy, just like the DirectX version. DICE really needs to fix this game already. Hope the next title with Mantle is ready to launch soon, because as fate would have it they couldn't have picked a worse game to showcase the tech first.


The whole video was choppy.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> 1st youtube video of the Mantle world premiere (average-ish quality):
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los.


What hardware was he using? He is claiming up to 45% faster.


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> What hardware was he using? He is claiming up to 45% faster.


GPU most likely 290X, CPU most likely FX-8350.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Once you start to have cash and really buy the best GPU and CPU to get Max fps in games you realize that CPUs today are huge bottlenecks.


If that was the case everyone's cpu would be at 99% during games.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Nope, it's both a driver for your GPU and a software patch for the game.
> 
> How that will be distributed, that's still not set in stone at the moment AFAIK.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> 1st youtube video of the Mantle world premiere (average-ish quality):
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los
> 
> I actually didn't notice those huge drops in frame rate when watching live, insanely weird, frame rate was +100 FPS most of the time but it had dips into the 50s and 70s.


What was that single player? What a pathetic video. I want a full 64 player bf4 multi-player demo.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> GPU most likely 290X, CPU most likely FX-8350.


He didnt pinpoint what % increase for which cards, but that...is...nice! Plus, the 20 games using Mantle. Cant wait till public release.


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> If that was the case everyone's cpu would be at 99% during games.


That is the case. The CPU cores were not utilized effectively and CPU performance came strictly from IPC performance. Mantle just lets CPU lose.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> What was that single player? What a pathetic video. I want a full 64 player bf4 multi-player demo.


If anything Mantle will benefit CPU limited scenarios more which is what BF4 MP has. If you are GPU limited i dont thing Mantle will do all that much right now.


----------



## keikei

I'm predicting my setup can hit 60fps+ in BF4 with Mantle enabled.


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> What was that single player? What a pathetic video. I want a full 64 player bf4 multi-player demo.


I wanna see them benchmark the game head to head with the DX version while tracking frame rates, frame times and cpu usage. a simple video isn't gonna do much for us when the game looks the same no matter what it's running on.


----------



## Redeemer

An API that uses the full architectural power of GCN makes me hot and excited!


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PureBlackFire*
> 
> I wanna see them benchmark the game head to head with the DX version while tracking frame rates, frame times and cpu usage. a simple video isn't gonna do much for us when the game looks the same no matter what it's running on.


Exactly pure. That's what I want as well.


----------



## Sadmoto

I have been asking this over and over, is mantle taking workloads off the cpu and gpu or just gpu?
Would expain the "upto".
If it's gpu workload only then it would only help people gpu bottlenecks. Since my new upgrade I don't NEED mantle but obviously any performance is welcome, but I wonder if it'll help people cpu locked, part of me wants to think it does because of leaked bf4 bench on new amd apus, but idk if it was mp or not


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sadmoto*
> 
> I have been asking this over and over, is mantle taking workloads off the cpu and gpu or just gpu?
> Would expain the "upto".
> If it's gpu workload only then it would only help people gpu bottlenecks. Since my new upgrade I don't NEED mantle but obviously any performance is welcome, but I wonder if it'll help people cpu locked, part of me wants to think it does because of leaked bf4 bench on new amd apus, but idk if it was mp or not


Both but right now at the state Mantle is CPU will be able to do a lot more so no more CPU bottlenecks.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> That is the case. The CPU cores were not utilized effectively and CPU performance came strictly from IPC performance. Mantle just lets CPU lose.
> If anything Mantle will benefit CPU limited scenarios more which is what BF4 MP has. If you are GPU limited i dont thing Mantle will do all that much right now.


If the cpu cores were not utilized, that does not mean bottleneck.


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> If the cpu cores were not utilized, that does not mean bottleneck.


Yes it does. If a faster CPU gave you more fps then the CPU is the bottleneck even if its not fully utilized.


----------



## Sadmoto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Both but right now at the state Mantle is CPU will be able to do a lot more so no more CPU bottlenecks.


good to know, this will be great for people with older CPU's, but have a GCN GPU.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whtchocla7e*
> 
> 45% is decent number. Probably rounded up from 39% which was rounded up from 32% which was rounded up from 26% which was rounded up from 17% which was rounded up from 8%.
> 
> Anything on a marketing slide I take with a grain of salt.


It sounds like you never played a game that supported 3DFX Glide with a Voodoo card back in the day.

Gains like this for people with a 3DFX Voodoo on games that supported 3DFX Glide weren't entirely out of the question.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> What hardware was he using? He is claiming up to 45% faster.


We don't know, what we know is that:

* It wasn't Kaveri
* It had to be a high end part (by the 100+ FPS).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> What was that single player? What a pathetic video. I want a full 64 player bf4 multi-player demo.


Game studios/companies don't do real time live demos anymore, too much could go wrong if he actually jumped on a live server.

I'm ok with SP demos.

Btw, repi (Johan Andersson) has to be pretty pissed with the Mantle demo, the hiccups and the frame rate drops were *very* noticeable, not to mention all that happened in a 10 sec span.


----------



## Clocknut

it makes me wonder, i3 + 780Ti = xx Fps due to CPU bottleneck
i3 + 290x + mantle = xx fps + 45%


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> it makes me wonder, i3 + 780Ti = xx Fps due to CPU bottleneck
> i3 + 290x + mantle = xx fps + 45%


I'd wait and see some actual benchmarks. I doubt it'll be anywhere close to 45%. I'll call it right now it'll be 8% at the most


----------



## Arizonian

I'm looking forward to mantle reviews with AMD and Nvidia benchmarks to compare before mantle to after mantle scores.


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> it makes me wonder, i3 + 780Ti = xx Fps due to CPU bottleneck
> i3 + 290x + mantle = xx fps + 45%


And that's exactly the kind of nonsense case they'd use to make the 45% claims. A combination no one in their right mind would ever run.

But didn't they already say the 45% was with an APU/HUMA?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> I'd wait and see some actual benchmarks. I doubt it'll be anywhere close to 45%. I'll call it right now it'll be 8% at the most


Well AMD rep said they wouldn't do it for 4% so you can bet that it is about 4 times that on average in BF4








~15/20% is what I expect


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> And that's exactly the kind of nonsense case they'd use to make the 45% claims. A combination no one in their right mind would ever run.
> 
> But didn't they already say the 45% was with an APU/HUMA?


Kaveri is a Single module enhance bulldozer, so against i3 Haswell probably have some slight edge. But we all know i3 is kinda bottleneck everything in BF4, so mantle = reduce CPU usage = soooo +45%? when Mantle allow extra CPU resource to process other stuff? rather than letting DirectX drawcalls choking the CPU?

regardless of their claimed 45% better or not. I still think Mantle will at east give All GCN Radeon gain a clean 10-20% boost across the mantle title. it is not too bad that is just enough to allow 290X to claim back the crown from 780Ti


----------



## jordanecmusic

maybe mantle will make tri fire and quad fire setups more efficient?


----------



## MxPhenom 216

I'll believe it when I see it. Mantle has the biggest hype train on it in the industry since the last few years.


----------



## th3illusiveman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MxPhenom 216*
> 
> I'll believe it when I see it. Mantle has the biggest hype train on it in the industry since the last few years.


Just a shame AMD is leading it. They have a tendency to drop the ball more often then not.


----------



## Alatar

I'd really wait for 3rd party benches from people who don't want to run this with stock FX chips.

For example going from an 8350 to a 3970X (stock settings) will yield around a 45% increase in BF4.... With AMD's chips it's pretty much impossible to determine what kind of GPU gains there are, if any.


----------



## AlDyer

I thought it was obvious that this is the performance increase for an APU, it is almost certain that it will NOT scale like that when you have a 4770K and a 290X. I find the 45% completely possible and even likely with an APU, just not with high end. The primary target will be boosting AMD's low end chips. It will help with higher end AMD CPU's too, but I doubt it will be a 45% boost. For example my 4670K would most likely not see nearly as high improvements.


----------



## Kuivamaa

APU as test subject doesn't say much. The real question is what sort of scenario was the DX11 case that was taken as base performance. Absolutely cpu limited? Not that much?


----------



## ladcrooks

Here is my answer - ? %









And the winner is ???????????????????


----------



## nitrubbb

AMD should have showed BF4 running on kaveri with mantle


----------



## Offler

To see it run on AMD cpu based console and compared to PC with similar CPU/GPU would be quite sufficient comparation.

The main difference in that case would be OS and APIs which is in case of console well tailored to fit both game and hardware. Not the case of PC.

At all - there is quite a lot of new games which are not able to utilize my Q9550, not even Phenom II 1090t. That should be OK, but only in case if my GPU is utilized to 100%, and thus is clear bottleneck. Thats not happening. There are games which are not fully utilizing my CPU, nor GPU while game performance is still quite poor.

Possible reasons are quite clear. Software such as directX has reached its own limits and simply cannot operate faster.

At all. I am curious only to see 3rd party benchmarks to compare Mantle and DirectX performance of any game, or at least 3d demo...


----------



## Redeemer

Wow typical fanboy hate, "dropping the ball" come one man get real.


----------



## ladcrooks

If they even gain as much as 25% they will have a winner









I don't hate neither - the 2 going head to head all these yrs have only spelled out quicker progress that gets passed onto us as an end product.

But this where your fan boys are blind to any reason why there should be more than 1 person at the party


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ladcrooks*
> 
> If they even gain as much as 25% they will have a winner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't hate neither - the 2 going head to head all these yrs have only spelled out quicker progress that gets passed onto us as an end product.
> 
> But this where your fan boys are blind to any reason why there should be more than 1 person at the party


This. Also, have you checked out FreeSync from AMD? Goodbye to propietary G-Sync !

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7641/amd-demonstrates-freesync-free-gsync-alternative-at-ces-2014


----------



## ladcrooks

Yes interesting read - still lets see red and green mature in this area and then moan who has the worst setup


----------



## di inferi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> I'd wait and see some actual benchmarks. I doubt it'll be anywhere close to 45%. I'll call it right now it'll be 8% at the most


I like pulling random numbers out of thin air too!

7.9%

The price is WRONG, Bob.


----------



## AlDyer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *di inferi*
> 
> I like pulling random numbers out of thin air too!
> 
> 7.9%
> 
> The price is WRONG, Bob.


Obviously Stay Puft has calculated that number with his superior intelligence. It is 8%. Stay Puft is the lead developer of the API in fact.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> I'd really wait for 3rd party benches from people who don't want to run this with stock FX chips.
> 
> For example going from an 8350 to a 3970X (stock settings) will yield around a 45% increase in BF4.... With AMD's chips it's pretty much impossible to determine what kind of GPU gains there are, if any.


Fact of the matter is, majority of PC gamers are still using laptops or low-mid range PC's, and that is where mantle will show the biggest benefit.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Fact of the matter is, majority of PC gamers are still using laptops or low-mid range PC's, and that is where mantle will show the biggest benefit.


I know, but I'm not personally interested in that at all and neither are many of the people here running highly overclocked haswell/IB-E/SB-E/etc. systems...


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> I know, but I'm not personally interested in that at all and neither are many of the people here running highly overclocked haswell/IB-E/SB-E/etc. systems...


.

I mean my HTPC has an AMD 6870 for God's sake. Anyone who calls themselves a "Gamer" and is playing on a built in laptop graphics chip, really needs to look at the meaning of the term "Gamer" first.


----------



## Slaughtahouse

They're just stalling. Get on with it already, I want to SEE these increases. I won't believe a word of this marketing till it's out for consumer use.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> .
> 
> I mean my HTPC has an AMD 6870 for God's sake. Anyone who calls themselves a "Gamer" and is playing on a built in laptop graphics chip, really needs to look at the meaning of the term "Gamer" first.


Ah so having more money means you are more of a gamer.


----------



## coupe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> I sense a lot of pessimism on some posts. More bugs? Why? The idea of Mantle is reducing the software communication and thus the possible bugs. Also, it helps to translate the coding into an easier broader spectrum so as to avoid unnecessary long times for code optimization and bug-solving. It is great and I think that if it even places 25% advantage on more powerful chips, it is still a great solution. And for the ones that have a slower CPU, it will be like day and night as there will be almost no CPU bottleneck. And these are the first stages of Mantle, they started aiming to 100K batches, but will push onto 300K.


It's easy. Nvidia in user's rig = Pessimism
AMD in user's rig = Excitement


----------



## axizor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> .
> 
> I mean my HTPC has an AMD 6870 for God's sake. Anyone who calls themselves a "Gamer" and is playing on a built in laptop graphics chip, really needs to look at the meaning of the term "Gamer" first.


So you're only a gamer if you have expensive high end hardware? What kind of logic is that?


----------



## kzone75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> .
> 
> I mean my HTPC has an AMD 6870 for God's sake. *Anyone who calls themselves a "Gamer" and is playing on a built in laptop graphics chip, really needs to look at the meaning of the term "Gamer" first.*


Silliest thing I've read today..


----------



## adridu59

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *junkerde*
> 
> up to 45% speed boost! *
> 
> *_only on AMD R9 290x models_


More like the contrary; it seems like HSA APUs with shared CPU/GPU memory access will be those that will benefit most from it.


----------



## sasuke256

Well some people live in developping countries where hardware is not that available and expansive..
So there is no gamers in here ?


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> .
> 
> I mean my HTPC has an AMD 6870 for God's sake. Anyone who calls themselves a "Gamer" and is playing on a built in laptop graphics chip, really needs to look at the meaning of the term "Gamer" first.


Rofl. I can game on my phone. Hardware doesnt make you a gamer


----------



## Abs.exe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> Silliest thing I've read today..


If you are a gamer and you are playing on your i3 integrated graphics, you are silly, not a gamer.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adridu59*
> 
> More like the contrary; it seems like HSA APUs with shared CPU/GPU memory access will be those that will benefit most from it.


well one important thing:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by junkerde
> 
> up to 45% speed boost! *
> 
> *only on AMD R9 290x models


This is wrong. Any AMD graphics with GCN architecture will benefit from Mantle. Including HD 7000s. At least most of them. I agree that percentage may vary.


----------



## kzone75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abs.exe*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> Silliest thing I've read today..
> 
> 
> 
> If you are a gamer and you are playing on your i3 integrated graphics, you are silly, not a gamer.
Click to expand...

Yes, you would be a budget gamer. I'm sure you can play something on the i3 iGPU..


----------



## Abs.exe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> Yes, you would be a budget gamer. I'm sure you can play something on the i3 iGPU..


Sure, you are just not as much as a gamer as someone who owns quad 290X/780 Ti...

Sure they play games, it's just not serious enough to be refered as a gamer IMO. But hey, who am I to judge them.

That's just my point of view, but someone who play 8 hours a day of SNES isn't a gamer in my eyes, a gamer has at least better graphics than ps3/xbox 360.


----------



## Kuivamaa

If you game for the joy of it, you are a gamer. Even If you are still running a pentium 166MMX and play Diablo 1 and Fallout 1 or something.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlDyer*
> 
> Obviously Stay Puft has calculated that number with his superior intelligence. It is 8%. Stay Puft is the lead developer of the API in fact.


When I turn out to be right I'll be waiting for your apology


----------



## jordanecmusic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abs.exe*
> 
> If you are a gamer and you are playing on your i3 integrated graphics, you are silly, not a gamer.


so you are saying you need a computer that runs crysis in order to beconsidered a gamer? thats like saying that consolites are not gamers. they are gamers but they are using low end hardware. Then again there is that threshold to where you cannot consider yourself a gamer if you are playing only facebook games and minesweeper....

<(^_^<) STOP <(^_^)> THIS (>^_^<) MADNESS (>^_^)>


----------



## AlDyer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> When I turn out to be right I'll be waiting for your apology


Yeah, only a matter of time...


----------



## Aparition

Lol hardware |= gamer.
Integrated graphics can play Counter Strike just fine.


----------



## kzone75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abs.exe*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> Yes, you would be a budget gamer. I'm sure you can play something on the i3 iGPU..
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, you are just not as much as a gamer as someone who owns quad 290X/780 Ti...
> 
> Sure they play games, it's just not serious enough to be refered as a gamer IMO. But hey, who am I to judge them.
> 
> That's just my point of view, but someone who play 8 hours a day of SNES isn't a gamer in my eyes, a gamer has at least better graphics than ps3/xbox 360.
Click to expand...

Pro-gamers might disagree with you there. No time for "ooh pretty" while whoopin' butts.


----------



## Abs.exe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> Pro-gamers might disagree with you there. No time for "ooh pretty" while whoopin' butts.


It's only my opinion, sure, they are pro-gamers, spending thousands on their GPU to play LOL (What a crap game btw), I'm glad I lost my gaming addiction, thinking about it, it is so useless.


----------



## Ghost12

delete


----------



## junkerde

up to a 45% speed boost!*

_*Disclaimer: Only when looking at the ground_


----------



## kzone75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abs.exe*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> Pro-gamers might disagree with you there. No time for "ooh pretty" while whoopin' butts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's only my opinion, sure, they are pro-gamers, spending thousands on their GPU to play LOL (What a crap game btw), I'm glad I lost my gaming addiction, thinking about it, it is so useless.
Click to expand...

Don't play WoW or LoL myself. According to those who play, I'm not a gamer.

Well, I'm off to play Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon on my HTPC..


----------



## Wildcard36qs

Goodness can any thread on OCN not devolved into childish arguments?


----------



## kzone75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wildcard36qs*
> 
> Goodness can any thread on OCN not devolved into childish arguments?


No.


----------



## Stay Puft

People still complain about BF4 issues yet I've had none at all.


----------



## wholeeo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wildcard36qs*
> 
> Goodness can any thread on OCN not devolved into childish arguments?


Nope, I've learned the hard way to stay away from news threads. I try to just read the original post and keep it moving.


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abs.exe*
> 
> That's just my point of view, but someone who play 8 hours a day of SNES isn't a gamer in my eyes, a gamer has at least better graphics than ps3/xbox 360.


i dont even know how to logically process this statement


----------



## ladcrooks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wholeeo*
> 
> Nope, I've learned the hard way to stay away from news threads. I try to just read the original post and keep it moving.


Despite all the bickering that goes on - Wouldn't it also be boring without ?

Another mans quote can simply dig a hole for himself as it has done here for Knucklehead - but in a sense I can see where he is coming from. I think he meant in the ultimate in gaming spirit, having the best.

We all can say things on here that we don't mean or do mean. Carry on it makes more fun reading









That's why I am member - different brains give different results and even though I bark about fanboyouism, we still get a good number of replies to a lot of posts that still can educate the lesser learned









Myself - still learning,


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ladcrooks*
> 
> Despite all the bickering that goes on - Wouldn't it also be boring without ?
> 
> Another mans quote can simply dig a hole for himself as it has done here for Knucklehead - but in a sense I can see where he is coming from. I think he meant in the ultimate in gaming spirit, having the best.
> 
> We all can say things on here that we don't mean or do mean. Carry on it makes more fun reading
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why I am member - different brains give different results and even though I bark about fanboyouism, we still get a good number of replies to a lot of posts that still can educate the lesser learned


This. What else are we supposed to do here without any real Mantle information to discuss?


----------



## Vagrant Storm

The first Mantle game should have been a RTS game...that is the only place the draw call capability will shine. A game like BF4 just can't use them...not with out making a call for each pixel. If it actually works maybe one day we will have a Mantle game where each pixel on a soldier uniform gets a draw call for some awesome cloth simulation, but I don't know if any one would really notice it and it would probably be a lot of work.

As it stands now I'd expect Mantle to only help when the GPU is insufficient and a lot gets off loaded to the CPU, but that's just my prediction from the tiny scraps of information that we gotten on it.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Fact of the matter is, majority of PC gamers are still using laptops or low-mid range PC's, and that is where mantle will show the biggest benefit.


And how do you know that?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adridu59*
> 
> More like the contrary; it seems like HSA APUs with shared CPU/GPU memory access will be those that will benefit most from it.


Again, how do you know that?

There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around here ):


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> And how do you know that?


http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Fact of the matter is, majority of PC gamers are still using laptops or low-mid range PC's, and that is where mantle will show the biggest benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> And how do you know that?
Click to expand...

Probably from sales figures...Steam Surveys...


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artev*
> 
> http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Probably from sales figures...Steam Surveys...


I wasn't talking about the "majority of gamers..." part, I was talking about the "and that is where Mantle will show the biggest benefit".


----------



## EastCoast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> The first Mantle game should have been a RTS game...that is the only place the draw call capability will shine. A game like BF4 just can't use them...not with out making a call for each pixel. If it actually works maybe one day we will have a Mantle game where each pixel on a soldier uniform gets a draw call for some awesome cloth simulation, but I don't know if any one would really notice it and it would probably be a lot of work.
> 
> As it stands now I'd expect Mantle to only help when the GPU is insufficient and a lot gets off loaded to the CPU, but that's just my prediction from the tiny scraps of information that we gotten on it.


I agree with you on the use of RTS gaming. If I were to take a guess Mantle has the potential to reintroduce Bad Company 2 level of destruction that we've been waiting for all this time since BF3. But this time fully capable of leveling building, etc.
The gist of it is that I think we would see more with BF4 then just a speed increase with Mantle enabled.

We will know something in the next 3 days though









Mantle is coming, the Mantle is coming


----------



## Aparition

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> The first Mantle game should have been a RTS game...that is the only place the draw call capability will shine. A game like BF4 just can't use them...not with out making a call for each pixel. If it actually works maybe one day we will have a Mantle game where *each pixel on a soldier uniform gets a draw call for some awesome cloth simulation*, but I don't know if any one would really notice it and it would probably be a lot of work.
> 
> As it stands now I'd expect Mantle to only help when the GPU is insufficient and a lot gets off loaded to the CPU, but that's just my prediction from the tiny scraps of information that we gotten on it.


When COD 4 came out everyone was awestruck with the detail to the soldier models.
People will notice









If cloth can be insanely detailed that may launch the more realistic aspect of games into the atmosphere. Imagine playing on a scale of BF4 with detailed camouflage? I know BF4 currently has some pretty good camo but it isn't like "blend into the woods" silly good camo.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> I agree with you on the use of RTS gaming. If I were to take a guess Mantle has the potential to reintroduce Bad Company 2 level of destruction that we've been waiting for all this time since BF3. But this time fully capable of leveling building, etc.
> The gist of it is that I think we would see more with BF4 then just a speed increase with Mantle enabled.
> 
> We will know something in the next 3 days though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mantle is coming, the Mantle is coming


But the main benefit of Mantle is not just the increase in draw calls.

Mantle is about getting rid of all the legacy crap that's been plaguing both Direct3D and OpenGL for a *long time* now (no more spoon feeding the GPU, no black box driver, no large sequential bottlenecks, etc).

A RTS demo would be very impressive, I agree, but I have no problem with Battlefield 4 being the pilot project for Mantle, it needs it just as bad as any game out there right now.

And IMO, Battlefield 4 has better destructibility than Battlefield Bad Company 2, BFBC2 just had the same house copied over and over again, so you had the impression that everything was destructible, but it was the same house/structure. Battlefield 4 is a rich game there, it has PLENTY of different types of destruction (excluding Levolution).


----------



## EastCoast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> But the main benefit of Mantle is not just the increase in draw calls.
> 
> Mantle is about getting rid of all the legacy crap that's been plaguing both Direct3D and OpenGL for a *long time* now (no more spoon feeding the GPU, no black box driver, no large sequential bottlenecks, etc).
> 
> A RTS demo would be very impressive, I agree, but I have no problem with Battlefield 4 being the pilot project for Mantle, it needs it just as bad as any game out there right now.


Yeah, I'm aware of the elephant in the room that was tolerated do to compatibility concerns. However, that was a topic least talked about as there was no alternative at the time. However, now we can get beyond that, remove the elephant, and look forward to some actual benefits to what Mantle would bring to the table. With enough developer support who knows what can be imagine/developed with Mantle. For example, what if someone comes up with an idea to incorporate Mantle in the online gaming space?

Another thing, that 45% wasn't talking about GPU it was talking about *Kevari* so lets keep that in mind.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Wow, this thread has turned rather appalling; and that is something coming from me.

Since when did the size of a persons bank account, and ability to buy high end hardware, determine if they were a gamer or not?

"LOLZ HAXZORS NOOB WITH i3!!! U NOEZ GAMUZ!!!"

What kid of attitude is this? For the last 25 years or so I have been a "gamer" I simply considered other "gamers" to be anyone that enjoys playing games, either as a hobby or passion project. At no point have I ever said "Eh, like, you don't have XXX GPU, so, nubz sauce not a gamer poser you can't game!".

That attitude is pretty disgusting.

I don't care if you are using a Lite-Brite to game on, if that is what you have, and you enjoy gaming, you are a Gamer.


----------



## Stay Puft

If mantle is going to alleviate the cpu from working so hard this makes me wonder how much better the Haswell I3's are going to get.


----------



## EastCoast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> If mantle is going to alleviate the cpu from working so hard this makes me wonder how much better the Haswell I3's are going to get.


What I see happening is that Mantle will change the entire benchmarking process. Sure faster better CPU will work better in Mantle but so will slower ones. So the dynamics of those games with Mantle with slow CPU's are going to show a vastily different picture of performance vs those games without.

In the end, slower CPUs will simply be good enough.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> If mantle is going to alleviate the cpu from working so hard this makes me wonder how much better the Haswell I3's are going to get.


Well...

There is always that Oxcide demo of taking the 4.0 Ghz 8350 and dumping it down to 2.0 Ghz and not getting a performance hit in their demo. Take it for what it is, but Mantle seems to be really working at removing the CPU as a major factor in overall performance. Which opens the doors up to a lot of gamers, especially the budget conscious ones.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> What I see happening is that Mantle will change the entire benchmarking process. Sure faster better CPU will work better in Mantle but so will slower ones. So the dynamics of those games with Mantle with slow CPU's are going to show a vastily different picture of performance vs those games without.
> 
> In the end, slower CPUs will simply be good enough.


Ninja'ed!


----------



## Nonehxc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Wow, this thread has turned rather appalling; and that is something coming from me.
> 
> Since when did the size of a persons bank account, and ability to buy high end hardware, determine if they were a gamer or not?
> 
> "LOLZ HAXZORS NOOB WITH i3!!! U NOEZ GAMUZ!!!"
> 
> What kid of attitude is this? For the last 25 years or so I have been a "gamer" I simply considered other "gamers" to be anyone that enjoys playing games, either as a hobby or passion project. At no point have I ever said "Eh, like, you don't have XXX GPU, so, nubz sauce not a gamer poser you can't game!".
> 
> That attitude is pretty disgusting.
> 
> I don't care if you are using a Lite-Brite to game on, if that is what you have, and you enjoy gaming, you are a Gamer.


Have I shown you...

the definition of gamer?



JK, I've been gaming for 24 years(since me and my father found a Gamewatch peacefully lying in the midst of a parking lot during one of our holidays)and neither the games you play nor the hardware makes one. Evem those crazy +700h DOTA/Starcraft/Wow/TF2 only sociopaths are gamers...

maybe.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> Yeah, I'm aware of the elephant in the room that was tolerated do to compatibility concerns. However, that was a topic least talked about as there was no alternative at the time. However, now we can get beyond that, remove the elephant, and look forward to some actual benefits to what Mantle would bring to the table. With enough developer support who knows what can be imagine/developed with Mantle. For example, what if someone comes up with an idea to incorporate Mantle in the online gaming space?


You mean like Star Citizen? lol.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> Another thing, that 45% wasn't talking about GPU it was talking about *Kevari* so lets keep that in mind.


You can't say that, we don't know that.


----------



## Ultracarpet

Why is anyone even complaining about this? Its a free boost of performance for the consumer. If it's 20000% or 2%, who cares, it's FREE. I'm not paying for it, are any of you? It's pretty clear that many of the naysayers here are angry that the 780 they bought for bf4 won't be getting this FREE performance boost. I ask them though; does mantle make direct x perform worse? no? Then why complain? I think everyone should let Louis C.K. hammer in a little bit of perspective here with the statement "How quickly the world owes him something he knew existed only ten seconds ago". No one was even expecting mantle. None of you even knew it existed before gpu14. Honestly, take a look in the mirror and try to think about the true reason you are complaining; I have my doubts that it's Mantles performance or even AMD. I personally believe it's just the brain worrying that it made a wrong choice. There are some great papers written about the downsides of choice.

If mantle does in fact relieve cpu bottlenecks (for the most part) that is amazing! People looking to get the most out of games will no longer have to buy $200< cpu's. They can spend their money on what matters for the graphics which is the graphics card. What I'm saying is that people here often forget that the average gamer isn't using a 4930k's... OCN does not contain the average gamer. Mantle is HUGE if it does in fact remove cpu bottleneck, this will be massive for the majority that are using old or low end/power intel cpu's or AMD cpu's (in single threaded scenarios) which is what they should be worrying about. People using this hardware can now just toss in a nice video card and be on their way playing games with all the eye candy advantages of PC without having to spend thousands of dollars on an overkill PC.


----------



## kzone75

I would really like to see this in action:
Quote:


> "Surround House 2: Monsters in the Orchestra"
> Bringing AMD's Surround Computing vision to life in an overwhelming and unique way, "Surround House 2: Monsters in the Orchestra" engages show-goers in an instrumental performance by a collection of misfit monsters performing in a 360-degree domed theater. This immersive experience uses many of AMD's current and developing technologies including gesture control optimized by HSA features on the new "Kaveri" APU, next-generation AMD FirePro™ graphics driving 14 million pixels across six projectors, and 32.4 channels of audio processed with AMD TrueAudio technology and presented with Discrete Digital Multipoint Audio.


Source


----------



## adridu59

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> This is wrong. Any AMD graphics with GCN architecture will benefit from Mantle. Including HD 7000s. At least most of them. I agree that percentage may vary.


It was some sort of irony fwiw.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Again, how do you know that?
> 
> There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around here ):


By looking at the article, y'know.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> This is wrong. Any AMD graphics with GCN architecture will benefit from Mantle. Including HD 7000s. At least most of them. I agree that percentage may vary.


Mantle is not bound to any architecture, any......

If Nvidia wanted, they could allow their GPUs to work with Mantle.

http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amds-mantle-does-not-require-gpus-with-gcn-architecture/


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adridu59*
> 
> It was some sort of irony fwiw.
> By looking at the article, y'know.


What article?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Mantle is not bound to any architecture, any......
> 
> If Nvidia wanted, they could allow their GPUs to work with Mantle.
> 
> http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amds-mantle-does-not-require-gpus-with-gcn-architecture/


Not that simple, yes Mantle is being developed with the necessary abstraction to support other architectures/future architectures, but it's not "if NVIDIA wanted they could use Mantle", it's not like that at all.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MxPhenom 216*
> 
> I'll believe it when I see it. Mantle has the biggest hype train on it in the industry since the last few years.


All Aboard!!!


----------



## EastCoast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> You can't say that, we don't know that.


You mean the words written on the pic itself?
"Game Computing on Kaveri"
dem words...


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Mantle is not bound to any architecture, any......
> 
> If Nvidia wanted, they could allow their GPUs to work with Mantle.
> 
> http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amds-mantle-does-not-require-gpus-with-gcn-architecture/


Yes and this would allow AMD to cripple the performance of Nvidia GPUs if they wanted.


----------



## EastCoast

This would allow PC gamers to take their rightful place as providing a much richer, more indepth gaming experience vs the same game on consoles. And, no I'm not talking about cheap FX or lighting effects that is grayed out. With Mantle enabled games/hardware you will see benchmark graphs showing more frames being rendered within a given time frame (if developed w/more going on) then without Mantle.


----------



## sugarhell

Not really. There isnt kepler/maxwell part on mantle code. So if nvidia wants to use it they must develop it and then support it. So no amd cant cripple their performance


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> You mean the words written on the pic itself?
> "Game Computing on Kaveri"
> dem words...


The demo had an average of ~100 FPS.

There are videos from the APU13 conference that had Kaveri running BF4 at ~30 FPS (1080p - Medium Settings), so there's no way Kaveri is now all of the sudden running BF4 at ~100 FPS with Mantle, the math does not add up (AMD claiming 45% improvement).


----------



## Kuivamaa

It definitely isn't that simple for nvidia. Actually this whole "anyone can adapt to mantle" is a bit fishy, like a bait almost. If nvidia would abide to it and develop a similar layer for geforce cards, there is no guarantee developers would use it, they are using the GCN one because it is closely related to console code.This doesn't apply to nvidia. By adopting mantle, Nvidia could find themselves in a position of helping mantle adoption to proliferate and at the same time it would be mostly AMD reaping the optimization benefits. Nvidia will not support mantle, it will actively fight it and push hard towards the area AMD's console advantage is annulled- PC exclusives.


----------



## EastCoast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> The demo had an average of ~100 FPS.
> 
> There are videos from the APU13 conference that had Kaveri running BF4 at ~30 FPS (1080p - Medium Settings), so there's no way Kaveri is now all of the sudden running BF4 at ~100 FPS with Mantle, the math does not add up (AMD claiming 45% improvement).


That's not relevant to the topic of conversation making it a moot point. We've all seen slides before. We understand what "up to..." means.
Again, dem words


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> That's not relevant to the topic of conversation making it a moot point. We've all seen slides before. We understand what "up to..." means.
> Again, dem words


Not relevant to the topic? aren't we talking about whether or not the Mantle demo was running a Kaveri APU?

The truth of the matter is that:

* AMD didn't, not once, talk about system specs when talking about the whole Mantle "up to" 45% performance improvement.
* The demo had an average frame rate of ~100 FPS, and not that long ago Kaveri was seen running BF4 at ~30 FPS (1080p - Medium Settings). It doesn't add up.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> I agree with you on the use of RTS gaming. If I were to take a guess Mantle has the potential to reintroduce Bad Company 2 level of destruction that we've been waiting for all this time since BF3. But this time fully capable of leveling building, etc.
> The gist of it is that I think we would see more with BF4 then just a speed increase with Mantle enabled.
> 
> We will know something in the next 3 days though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mantle is coming, the Mantle is coming
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the main benefit of Mantle is not just the increase in draw calls.
> 
> Mantle is about getting rid of all the legacy crap that's been plaguing both Direct3D and OpenGL for a *long time* now (no more spoon feeding the GPU, no black box driver, no large sequential bottlenecks, etc).
> 
> A RTS demo would be very impressive, I agree, but I have no problem with Battlefield 4 being the pilot project for Mantle, it needs it just as bad as any game out there right now.
> 
> And IMO, Battlefield 4 has better destructibility than Battlefield Bad Company 2, BFBC2 just had the same house copied over and over again, so you had the impression that everything was destructible, but it was the same house/structure. Battlefield 4 is a rich game there, it has PLENTY of different types of destruction (excluding Levolution).
Click to expand...

I don't know...from what they've released thus far I think Mantles main benefits are going to be CPU and GPU interaction...with more goodies for the the CPU. It all revolves around that unified pipeline. I'd love to get some low level details on it. I think Mantle has the chance to be revolutionary here...IF it works and people adopt it and use it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> This is wrong. Any AMD graphics with GCN architecture will benefit from Mantle. Including HD 7000s. At least most of them. I agree that percentage may vary.
> 
> 
> 
> Mantle is not bound to any architecture, any......
> 
> If Nvidia wanted, they could allow their GPUs to work with Mantle.
> 
> http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amds-mantle-does-not-require-gpus-with-gcn-architecture/
Click to expand...

Mantle is technically not limited to any specific hardware, but it could just as well be. Each GPU should need its own version of Mantle and I doubt AMD will let Nvidia use it...not without horrible licensing fees that Nvidia would never agree to. This also makes each architecture require its own Mantle development project...another bar holding it back.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> It definitely isn't that simple for nvidia. Actually this whole "anyone can adapt to mantle" is a bit fishy, like a bait almost. If nvidia would abide to it and develop a similar layer for geforce cards, there is no guarantee developers would use it, they are using the GCN one because it is closely related to console code.This doesn't apply to nvidia. By adopting mantle, Nvidia could find themselves in a position of helping mantle adoption to proliferate and at the same time it would be mostly AMD reaping the optimization benefits. Nvidia will not support mantle, it will actively fight it and push hard towards the area AMD's console advantage is annulled- PC exclusives.


Not simple... yeap you've got that right. Can they just code their own api and push it to market? How much would it cost them to buy that influence from the whole of the gaming industry? Could they even do it in a time frame that doesn't put them back years after Mantle's adoption has matured?

Nvidia sort of put themselves into this position by taking a huge money settlement whilst losing out on the x86 license. That decision has really put them behind the eight ball now. No cpu license, no way to compete as the industry is moving to a single chip design. Mantle is the culmination of that influence brought upon by the ability to produce and secure single chip solutions for the console market. Nvidia could not fight and win back the consoles even if they wanted to without a cpu license. And then with AMD moving int the SOC market...

Mantle is just the start of things to come. I'm actually sort of concerned for Nvidia's future. Their combining of Denver and Maxwell just wreaks of desperation to get into the me too category.


----------



## EastCoast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Not relevant to the topic? aren't we talking about whether or not the Mantle demo was running a Kaveri APU?
> 
> The truth of the matter is that:
> 
> * AMD didn't, not once, talk about system specs when talking about the whole Mantle "up to" 45% performance improvement.
> * The demo had an average frame rate of ~100 FPS, and not that long ago Kaveri was seen running BF4 at ~30 FPS (1080p - Medium Settings). It doesn't add up.


No, your comment wasn't about about that.
1st you didn't know where the 45% came from.
"You can't say that, we don't know that."
Clearly you had no idea what the slide was referring to. So I pointed it to you.
Now you claim benchmark result that havent' been shown. To press deck that more then likely wasn't suppose to be released yet for results that you can't substantiate from a retail release.
Which is why I say, dem words.

Look, I understand that you want to take that with a grain a salt but it's another thing when you want to conspire theories and don't understand why we don't see eye to eye.


----------



## ladcrooks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> Why is anyone even complaining about this? Its a free boost of performance for the consumer. If it's 20000% or 2%, who cares, it's FREE. I'm not paying for it, are any of you? It's pretty clear that many of the naysayers here are angry that the 780 they bought for bf4 won't be getting this FREE performance boost. I ask them though; does mantle make direct x perform worse? no? Then why complain? I think everyone should let Louis C.K. hammer in a little bit of perspective here with the statement "How quickly the world owes him something he knew existed only ten seconds ago". No one was even expecting mantle. None of you even knew it existed before gpu14. Honestly, take a look in the mirror and try to think about the true reason you are complaining; I have my doubts that it's Mantles performance or even AMD. I personally believe it's just the brain worrying that it made a wrong choice. There are some great papers written about the downsides of choice.
> 
> If mantle does in fact relieve cpu bottlenecks (for the most part) that is amazing! People looking to get the most out of games will no longer have to buy $200< cpu's. They can spend their money on what matters for the graphics which is the graphics card. What I'm saying is that people here often forget that the average gamer isn't using a 4930k's... OCN does not contain the average gamer. Mantle is HUGE if it does in fact remove cpu bottleneck, this will be massive for the majority that are using old or low end/power intel cpu's or AMD cpu's (in single threaded scenarios) which is what they should be worrying about. People using this hardware can now just toss in a nice video card and be on their way playing games with all the eye candy advantages of PC without having to spend thousands of dollars on an overkill PC.


Well well is this thread not going to end on the Mantelpiece







And I like the above


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> No, your comment wasn't about about that.
> 1st you didn't know where the 45% came from.
> "You can't say that, we don't know that."
> Clearly you had no idea what the slide was referring to. So I pointed it to you.


So after all this was a complete misunderstanding







.

I wasn't talking about the 45% performance increase at all (I think at this point we have all seen that slide), I was actually talking about your comment:
Quote:


> "Another thing, that 45% wasn't talking about GPU *it was talking about Kevari so lets keep that in mind*."


http://www.overclock.net/t/1456947/chw-mantle-in-bf4-up-to-45-more-performance/130#post_21533836

I don't know where you got that from, AMD didn't mention system specs at all yesterday when showing the Mantle demo.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> Now you claim benchmark result that havent' been shown. To press deck that more then likely wasn't suppose to be released yet for results that you can't substantiate from a retail release.
> Which is why I say, dem words.
> 
> Look, I understand that you want to take that with a grain a salt but it's another thing when you want to conspire theories and don't understand why we don't see eye to eye.


Benchmarks results that haven't been shown!? the FPS counter was there the whole time in the demo, the average was ~100 FPS.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los

And just in case if you're talking about my comments regarding Kaveri running BF4 at medium settings at ~30 FPS here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3RY94zGda4


----------



## EastCoast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> So after all this was a complete misunderstanding
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I wasn't talking about the 45% performance increase at all (I think at this point we have all seen that slide), I was actually talking about your comment:
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1456947/chw-mantle-in-bf4-up-to-45-more-performance/130#post_21533836
> 
> I don't know where you got that from, AMD didn't mention system specs at all yesterday when showing the Mantle demo.
> Benchmarks results that haven't been shown!? the FPS counter was there the whole time in the demo, the average was ~100 FPS.
> 
> Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los
> 
> And just in case if you're talking about my comments regarding Kaveri running BF4 at medium settings at ~30 FPS here:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3RY94zGda4


This is getting hilarious. Did you actually listen to the video? Lets recap that video.
"There we can see AMD Kaveri's performance demo in image editing and playing Battlefield 4 (without Mantle). AMD will shipped it in Q1 2014."
In the video he clearly states there is no optimizations from 1:20 to 1:35. It does not have mantle. All that video does is showcase Kaveri at roughly 30 FPS (which to me is impressive for a SOC) which is why I said this is not relevant to this thread.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Not simple... yeap you've got that right. Can they just code their own api and push it to market? How much would it cost them to buy that influence from the whole of the gaming industry? Could they even do it in a time frame that doesn't put them back years after Mantle's adoption has matured?
> 
> Nvidia sort of put themselves into this position by taking a huge money settlement whilst losing out on the x86 license. That decision has really put them behind the eight ball now. No cpu license, no way to compete as the industry is moving to a single chip design. Mantle is the culmination of that influence brought upon by the ability to produce and secure single chip solutions for the console market. Nvidia could not fight and win back the consoles even if they wanted to without a cpu license. And then with AMD moving int the SOC market...
> 
> Mantle is just the start of things to come. I'm actually sort of concerned for Nvidia's future. Their combining of Denver and Maxwell just wreaks of desperation to get into the me too category.


Well said


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> This is getting hilarious. Did you actually listen to the video? Lets recap that video.
> "There we can see AMD Kaveri's performance demo in image editing and playing Battlefield 4 (without Mantle). AMD will shipped it in Q1 2014."
> In the video he clearly states there is no from 1:20 to 1:35. It does not have mantle. All that video does is showcase Kaveri at roughly 30 FPS (which to me is impressive for a SOC) which is why I said this is not relevant to this thread.


Dude,

Before I go on with my post, just answer me this:

Did or did you not say that the 45% performance increase was when using a Kaveri APU?

That's all I want to know.


----------



## tsm106

But YOU said the 45% was BS and you referred to a vid that you didn't watch which stated this is w/o Mantle.

ANyways, so whats the math going from 30fps to 100fps anyways?


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> But YOU said the 45% was BS and you referred to a vid that you didn't watch which stated this is w/o Mantle.
> 
> ANyways, so whats the math going from 30fps to 100fps anyways?


At no point did I say the 45% was BS, what I did say was that the Mantle demo shown yesterday was definitely not running a Kaveri APU since the frame rate was consistently in the ~100 FPS range, and the performance numbers we got during the APU13 conference was that Kaveri was capable of running BF4 (without Mantle) at ~30 FPS (Medium settings - 1080p), add 45% to 30 FPS and you get ~43 FPS.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Not that simple, yes Mantle is being developed with the necessary abstraction to support other architectures/future architectures, but it's not "if NVIDIA wanted they could use Mantle", it's not like that at all.


At this moment nothing coming from AMD says they wouldn't allow Nvidia to use it, if Nvidia wanted. However, Nvidia recently announced their own objectives with new development programs, so I doubt Nvidia is going to ask to use it.

Which is completely different than Nvidia being locked out of Mantle, it is purely a business decision, not a technical matter.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Yes and this would allow AMD to cripple the performance of Nvidia GPUs if they wanted.


Seriously Alatar? I know you are the most anti-AMD person I have ever met, but even this is a new low for you. Why do you even bother to comment in AMD threads? Seriously, I am actually asking. I don't think I am the only person who is wondering this right now, especially after such a comment.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> I don't know...from what they've released thus far I think Mantles main benefits are going to be CPU and GPU interaction...with more goodies for the the CPU. It all revolves around that unified pipeline. I'd love to get some low level details on it. I think Mantle has the chance to be revolutionary here...IF it works and people adopt it and use it.
> Mantle is technically not limited to any specific hardware, but it could just as well be. Each GPU should need its own version of Mantle and I doubt AMD will let Nvidia use it...not without horrible licensing fees that Nvidia would never agree to. This also makes each architecture require its own Mantle development project...another bar holding it back.


Kind of going back to my first statement in this post...

Nothing coming from AMD has said Nvidia, or Intel, couldn't get on-board with Mantle. In fact everything Mantle has shown to be is completely open...

Open to developers to use at their will.
Open on which architecture it can be used on.

We don't even know if AMD would want to charge a licensing fee to Nvidia, or if they did what it would look like. Statements like yours a pure speculation based of a percieved hate between AMD and Nvida.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Kind of going back to my first statement in this post...
> 
> Nothing coming from AMD has said Nvidia, or Intel, couldn't get on-board with Mantle. In fact everything Mantle has shown to be is completely open...
> 
> Open to developers to use at their will.
> Open on which architecture it can be used on.
> 
> We don't even know if AMD would want to charge a licensing fee to Nvidia, or if they did what it would look like. Statements like yours a pure speculation based of a percieved hate between AMD and Nvida.


It is a lot less speculative to think that AMD will want to charge a license fee to use Mantle...they've only spent a couple years and good deal of R&D on it. They are giving out free to _Game and Graphic Engine_ Developers because it should in theory prompt more people to buy AMD GPUs if more games support it (Just like PhysX from Nvidia), but we don't know anything about Hardware developers yet. It might be possible...I just don't see the shareholders of the company allowing it. It would go against every once of history and expectation for AMD to just give it to the world. And of course we still don't know if the world will even want it if they did give it away.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> It is a lot less speculative to think that AMD will want to charge a license fee to use Mantle...they've only spent a couple years and good deal of R&D on it. They are giving out free to _Game and Graphic Engine_ Developers because it should in theory prompt more people to buy AMD GPUs if more games support it (Just like PhysX from Nvidia), but we don't know anything about Hardware developers yet. It might be possible...I just don't see the shareholders of the company allowing it. It would go against every once of history and expectation for AMD to just give it to the world. And of course we still don't know if the world will even want it if they did give it away.


It wouldn't be up to the Share Holders if AMD provided a free license to it.

If anything doing so could actually benefit AMD more than if they charged a fee for it; as it would increase their brand recognition and give them some bragging rights in saying "Even our competitors use Mantle!". Which is actually a very very huge deal!

In the world of big business a company's name is often its most valuable asset, and having that brand recognition often outweighs the cash benefits if they had licensed something for a fee, and have less penetration.


----------



## maarten12100

Hey guys I took a closer look and it seems like it is running on 2042MB of allocated video memory so it might very well be a lower card a 7870 or something like that. at 1080P


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Hey guys I took a closer look and it seems like it is running on 2042MB of allocated video memory so it might very well be a lower card a 7870 or something like that. at 1080P


I believe the test was strictly using the built in GPU on the AMD APU vs the i3's IGP.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I believe the test was strictly using the built in GPU on the AMD APU vs the i3's IGP.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I believe the test was strictly using the built in GPU on the AMD APU vs the i3's IGP.


No way you get 100+ fps 1080P maxed on the Kaveri APU
I meant this presentation from yesterday at 31:00
http://www.amd.com/us/aboutamd/newsroom/Pages/ces-2014.aspx?cmpid=social_20140103_16580984


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> No way you get 100+ fps 1080P maxed on the Kaveri APU
> I meant this presentation from yesterday at 31:00
> http://www.amd.com/us/aboutamd/newsroom/Pages/ces-2014.aspx?cmpid=social_20140103_16580984


Ooohh, my bad.

I was speaking to some earlier slides which showed an i3 vs Kaveri.

I am now really interested in knowing what hardware they were on now, why wouldn't they have said? That kind of worries me a little.....

EDIT:

Well, we now know it was done at 4K...

http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-surrounds-visitors-2014jan06.aspx
Quote:


> 2014 CES will be the site of the first public demonstration of DICE's "Battlefield 4™" running AMD's Mantle on a 4K display.


100+ FPS at 4K? Quad 290X? Tri 290X?

I imagine it was on an FX 8350 new Kaveri with some sort of tri or possibly quad 290X to pull 100+ on 4K.


----------



## Kuivamaa

According to the green line (GPU frametime-visible on the lower left) it is either a single card or an extremely tight CFX setup.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I imagine it was on an FX 8350 new Kaveri with some sort of tri or possibly quad 290X to pull 100+ on 4K.


Talk about a bottleneck


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Talk about a bottleneck


What, what are you talking about?


----------



## sugarhell

Main mantle feature is to remove cpu bottleneck. Mention 8350 omg that bottleneck. Ocn logic


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Ooohh, my bad.
> 
> I was speaking to some earlier slides which showed an i3 vs Kaveri.
> 
> I am now really interested in knowing what hardware they were on now, why wouldn't they have said? That kind of worries me a little.....
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Well, we now know it was done at 4K...
> 
> http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-surrounds-visitors-2014jan06.aspx
> 100+ FPS at 4K? Quad 290X? Tri 290X?
> 
> I imagine it was on an FX 8350 new Kaveri with some sort of tri or possibly quad 290X to pull 100+ on 4K.


Well that is what their site lists but the demo says 1920*1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> According to the green line (GPU frametime-visible on the lower left) it is either a single card or an extremely tight CFX setup.


I suppose it is single.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Talk about a bottleneck


Okay I will there should be none for the cpu part, the new bottleneck will be the gpus.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Whatever that processor was,it wasn't the limiting factor. There's the perfoverlay.drawhgraph console command on and it shows it is running perfectly fine. My guess it is some vishera octocore.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> What, what are you talking about?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Okay I will there should be none for the cpu part, the new bottleneck will be the gpus.


I'm all for believing mantle will alleviate the cpu a lot compared to DIRECTX but there's no way a Kaveri quad wont bottleneck TRI or Quad 290X's. Amd needs to prove it to me.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Ooohh, my bad.
> 
> I was speaking to some earlier slides which showed an i3 vs Kaveri.
> 
> I am now really interested in knowing what hardware they were on now, why wouldn't they have said? That kind of worries me a little.....
> 
> *EDIT:
> 
> Well, we now know it was done at 4K...
> 
> http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-surrounds-visitors-2014jan06.aspx
> 100+ FPS at 4K? Quad 290X? Tri 290X?
> 
> I imagine it was on an FX 8350 new Kaveri with some sort of tri or possibly quad 290X to pull 100+ on 4K.*


I think they're talking about the on site demo (maybe in the surround house?), not the World Premiere teaser they showed yesterday.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> It is a lot less speculative to think that AMD will want to charge a license fee to use Mantle...they've only spent a couple years and good deal of R&D on it. They are giving out free to _Game and Graphic Engine_ Developers because it should in theory prompt more people to buy AMD GPUs if more games support it (Just like PhysX from Nvidia), but we don't know anything about Hardware developers yet. It might be possible...I just don't see the shareholders of the company allowing it. It would go against every once of history and expectation for AMD to just give it to the world. And of course we still don't know if the world will even want it if they did give it away.
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn't be up to the Share Holders if AMD provided a free license to it.
> 
> If anything doing so could actually benefit AMD more than if they charged a fee for it; as it would increase their brand recognition and give them some bragging rights in saying "Even our competitors use Mantle!". Which is actually a very very huge deal!
> 
> In the world of big business a company's name is often its most valuable asset, and having that brand recognition often outweighs the cash benefits if they had licensed something for a fee, and have less penetration.
Click to expand...

Which is even more reason for Nvidia to avoid it like a plague. They probably would not use it if AMD paid them to. I am sure we will see something of their own that is similar...well...if it actually does anything. I can't see how it couldn't, though to be honest I don't really know if it will help out BF4 all that much. I just don't think it is the type of game that will benefit from what they told us Mantle will do, but we will see.

...and of course the shareholders could dictate how the company utilizes its assets...that happens daily with companies around the world. Most investors would scoff at the idea of giving away something that so much time and resources were spent on developing. It was probably a hard sale in a shareholders' meeting just to give it away to the software world.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> I'm all for believing mantle will alleviate the cpu a lot compared to DIRECTX but there's no way a Kaveri quad wont bottleneck TRI or Quad 290X's. Amd needs to prove it to me.


Oh, I see what you are saying. Well Oxide to an 8350 from 4.0Ghz in a demo down to 2.0 Ghz and didn't take a performance hit. As of right now, Mantle pretty much removes any CPU bottleneck, and gives the floor to the GPU.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> I think they're talking about the on site demo (maybe in the surround house?), not the World Premiere teaser they showed yesterday.


Ah, good point.....


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Yes it does. If a faster CPU gave you more fps then the CPU is the bottleneck even if its not fully utilized.


No....

You have your theory I have mine. What you are describing is bad programming, not cpu bottleneck.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Oh, I see what you are saying. Well Oxide to an 8350 from 4.0Ghz in a demo down to 2.0 Ghz and didn't take a performance hit. As of right now, Mantle pretty much removes any CPU bottleneck, and gives the floor to the GPU.
> *Ah, good point.....*


Yeah...

I'm really desperate for some videos showing the on site demo already lol, with specs, details, longer playtime, etc.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Oh, I see what you are saying. Well Oxide to an 8350 from 4.0Ghz in a demo down to 2.0 Ghz and didn't take a performance hit. As of right now, Mantle pretty much removes any CPU bottleneck, and gives the floor to the GPU.
> Ah, good point.....


I want to believe postal


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wolfxing*
> 
> I think we should focus on the Mantle itself instead of how BF4 performance
> if there is a 45% increase, then Mantle is changing the game


This is the thing. Now a 280 would probably run no different than a 780TI on BF4. That's impressive.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Mantle World Premiere at 1080p:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTLYB5SOlI4

You can clearly see the 2 HUGE hiccups at the beginning -______-


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Oh, I see what you are saying. Well Oxide to an 8350 from 4.0Ghz in a demo down to 2.0 Ghz and didn't take a performance hit. As of right now, Mantle pretty much removes any CPU bottleneck, and gives the floor to the GPU.


Depends on what the cause of the CPU bottleneck is though. If processing the graphics is what is holding you back then it'll help immensely, but if the limitation is the CPU calculating AI or some other thread then you might not see such a big benefit. The slowest thread is still going to dictate performance.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Mantle World Premiere at 1080p:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTLYB5SOlI4
> 
> You can clearly see the 2 HUGE hiccups at the beginning -______-


Whats up with those two major spikes on single player?


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Whats up with those two major spikes on single player?


Yeah thats pretty weird, I'll try running that part of the game and see how my frame variance acts.

Getting about 80-90 fps at that sequence with my 780 Ti at 1190MHz, 67 as minimum fps.


----------



## psyside

They switch over from DX to Mantle, is what the spike is, maybe some kind of off vs on? is that even possible lol?


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *psyside*
> 
> They switch over from DX to Mantle, is what the spike is, maybe some kind of off vs on? is that even possible lol?


I don't even think that's possible.


----------



## psyside

I know, but could be that they are showing 2 streams at the same time and only switch over? but i think not.









P.S. Offtopic, is it possible to download BF4 from torrent, install it, and then when my card arrive just enter the serial? i can't waste time to download with slow net, and waste like good few hours instead of playing at once


----------



## Remij

LMAO


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Whats up with those two major spikes on single player?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Yeah thats pretty weird, I'll try running that part of the game and see how my frame variance acts.
> 
> Getting about 80-90 fps at that sequence with my 780 Ti at 1190MHz, 67 as minimum fps.


Yeah I don't know, like I said previously, if I am Johan Andersson I'm pretty pissed with this 1st showing.

2 HUGE spikes + FPS drop, all of that on a ~10 second demo, wth?


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> I want to believe postal


Me too!

Although I am pretty much set on going 780 Ti SLI with that new ROG SWIFT monitor...


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Me too!
> 
> Although I am pretty much set on going 780 Ti SLI with that new ROG SWIFT monitor...


That new ROG monitor is a day one buy for me as well


----------



## RX7-2nr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whtchocla7e*
> 
> Anything on a marketing slide I take with a grain of salt.


This post has 100% more truth.


----------



## velocityx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Yeah I don't know, like I said previously, if I am Johan Andersson I'm pretty pissed with this 1st showing.
> 
> 2 HUGE spikes + FPS drop, all of that on a ~10 second demo, wth?


they need to unpark some cores ;d


----------



## bmgjet

174fps on ultra 1440p. Yes please.

Just iv got a feeling there will be bigger gains for people using slower cards. While if you have top end cards the gains will be less.


----------



## Takla

they have a 8350. in the video he says they halved the clock speed, so 2000MHz.

he also says they have the fastest GPU and in the corner it shows r9 200 series gpu, so its a r9 290x most likely a reference at 1000MHz / 5000MHz.

on the screen it also says around 6500 units are fighting in real time. FPS is around 45.


----------



## SkyNetSTI

So what the **** is going on with this mantle thing?!
We are building a new rig around 4770k+780 .... Are we doing something wrong???


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> So what the **** is going on with this mantle thing?!
> We are building a new rig around 4770k+780 .... Are we doing something wrong???


Its all smoke and mirrors till we get some concrete benchmarks


----------



## bmgjet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Its all smoke and mirrors till we get some concrete benchmarks


^
Pretty much.
Hopefully it finally gets added to BF4 this month so some real benchmarks can be done.


----------



## SkyNetSTI

I can't wait I need a pc now








I can flip the things to amd only now only before I open the boxes which are on the table! The thing is holding me is a coming ssd and mantle cra*


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Takla*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they have a 8350. in the video he says they halved the clock speed, so 2000MHz.
> 
> he also says they have the fastest GPU and in the corner it shows r9 200 series gpu, so its a r9 290x most likely a reference at 1000MHz / 5000MHz.
> 
> on the screen it also says around 6500 units are fighting in real time. FPS is around 45.


Seems nice. Where can I fetch the executable and see it on my PC with my own eyes?


----------



## AlDyer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Not relevant to the topic? aren't we talking about whether or not the Mantle demo was running a Kaveri APU?
> 
> The truth of the matter is that:
> 
> * AMD didn't, not once, talk about system specs when talking about the whole Mantle "up to" 45% performance improvement.
> * The demo had an average frame rate of ~100 FPS, and not that long ago Kaveri was seen running BF4 at ~30 FPS (1080p - Medium Settings). It doesn't add up.


I'm almost certainhe video was running on a R9 270X and a Kaveri APU on medium settings, because that's what they showed in some slides. The performance increase would in this case be very close to 45%


----------



## Kuivamaa

I get similar hiccups in BF4 all the time on both campaign and multiplayer,two mini freezes in quick succession. They first appeared after the big client update, before that patch every freeze would result in a crash. Now it sometimes behaves like that and sometimes it proceeds to crash anyway. So my guess on what is that ,is that BF4 is still a very broken game.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlDyer*
> 
> I'm almost certainhe video was running on a R9 270X and a Kaveri APU on medium settings, because that's what they showed in some slides. The performance increase would in this case be very close to 45%


Quite possible as it would match with the 2GB of video memory.


----------



## AlDyer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Quite possible as it would match with the 2GB of video memory.


Only thing that doesn't make sence is that somebody said that it was running on a 4K display. That would mean that they would need beast GPU's. Maybe they were showing 1080p on a 4K monitor xD

EDIT: Oh I see, they were talking about something else, so I'm pretty confident about what I said earlier


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlDyer*
> 
> Only thing that doesn't make sence is that somebody said that it was running on a 4K display. That would mean that they would need beast GPU's. Maybe they were showing 1080p on a 4K monitor xD


That 4K was about one of their setups I suppose as it was running 1080P on the demo


----------



## AlDyer

Yeah I saw that, pretty sure that the 45% is a legit number and it is taken from this video. Stay Puft you were wrong about 8%


----------



## Irthizanovich

It's sad as it won't work on my good ol' 6000 GPU. Time for


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *psyside*
> 
> I know, but could be that they are showing 2 streams at the same time and only switch over? but i think not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Offtopic, is it possible to download BF4 from torrent, install it, and then when my card arrive just enter the serial? i can't waste time to download with slow net, and waste like good few hours instead of playing at once


Yes but you'll be looking into an extra 2 gb of updates plus 4.5gb of china rising ! But that is what i did. Also, after installing it in the origin games folder and updating it, you must do a repair installation or it won't work.


----------



## adridu59

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> What article?


Since we are in the news section, the OP (aka first post) usually refers to an article.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adridu59*
> 
> Since we are in the news section, the OP (aka first post) usually refers to an article.


I wasn't doubting the 45% increase part, I was just questioning your claim regarding that APUs will see the biggest benefit.


----------



## pokerapar88

Well I believe mantle is promising up to 200% performance increase in some titles. Maybe BF4 only offers 45% of improvement as it was not originally based on it, and it is patch implemented.
I have high expectations but at the same time I have hope after reading this: https://twitter.com/FudzillaNews/status/420706529956745216

Not only Mantle is probably going to be awesome for gamers, but it is evident that pushing forwards in development and technology only generates others to follow the trend. Win for all of us, I think.

Spanish article from CHW:

http://www.chw.net/2014/01/microsoft-alista-su-futura-api-grafica-directx-12/


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *adridu59*
> 
> Since we are in the news section, the OP (aka first post) usually refers to an article.
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't doubting the 45% increase part, I was just questioning your claim regarding that APUs will see the biggest benefit.
Click to expand...

The GPUs behind the APUs are severely bottlenecked. I wouldn't be surprised APUs see the most benefit.


----------



## psyside

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Yes but you'll be looking into an extra 2 gb of updates plus 4.5gb of china rising ! But that is what i did. also, adter installing it in the origin games folder and updating it, you must do a repair installation or it won't work.


Thanks alot rep +


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Domino*
> 
> The GPUs behind the APUs are severely bottlenecked. I wouldn't be surprised APUs see the most benefit.


Are bottlenecked by what?

The whole point of Mantle is that it will move the bottleneck back to the actual GPU itself (where it should be), no more CPU spoon feeding the GPU, so the CPU should, theoretically, never bottleneck the GPU.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *psyside*
> 
> Thanks alot rep +


No problem man, glad I could help!


----------



## mtbiker033

sweet game will crash 45% faster and you will get killed from nowhere 45 seconds faster than before since your gpu is now 45% faster than dat 10 tick rate


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Its all smoke and mirrors till we get some concrete benchmarks


As a huge supporter of Mantle, I can't say this statement is too far off....

Yesterday DICE demoed BF4 Mantle and it was a 45% performance increase over the Direct X version; they did not say on what hardware though....


----------



## adridu59

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> I wasn't doubting the 45% increase part, I was just questioning your claim regarding that APUs will see the biggest benefit.


Title ≠ Article (Title ∈ Article through).


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtbiker033*
> 
> sweet game will crash 45% faster and you will get killed from nowhere 45 seconds faster than before since your gpu is now 45% faster than dat 10 tick rate


People still getting crashes in BF4?


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *adridu59*
> 
> Title ≠ Article (Title ∈ Article through).


Dude what are you talking about?

Did or did you not say that APUs will probably benefit more vs other dedicated GPUs with Mantle?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> As a hug supporter of Mantle, I can't say this statement is too far off....
> 
> Yesterday DICE demoed BF4 Mantle and it was a 45% performance increase over the Direct X version; they did not say on what hardware though....


We do know one thing though:

It had to be a high end part.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> People still getting crashes in BF4?


Lies and slander!!!

Say it isn't so!

Hold me, I'm scared!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> We do know one thing though:
> 
> It had to be a high end part.


That is the general consensus of it, being it was over 100 FPS, and we believe to be 1080P. Although there was a live 4K demo on the floor people attending could play.

My personal guess was an 8350 with a single 290X. That being based off my past experience with 3DFX Glide, and how huge of performance increases you can see with a good API.


----------



## mtbiker033

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> People still getting crashes in BF4?


sorry that was a little sarcastic but I did get a few in-between rounds ctd while playing last weekend, seems to be dependent on certain servers


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Dude what are you talking about?
> 
> Did or did you not say that APUs will probably benefit more vs other dedicated GPUs with Mantle?
> We do know one thing though:
> 
> *It had to be a high end part.*


It showed ~2GB of video memory so I guess that would make it a 270X maybe hybrid CF with Kaveri but we don't know that.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> It showed ~2GB of video memory so I guess that would make it a 270X maybe hybrid CF with Kaveri but we don't know that.


Well, we can't assume they will all of the sudden start using the whole 3GB or 4GB of VRAM found on AMD's high end GPUs.

Without Mantle, Battlefield 4, completely maxed out will use around ~1.8GB of VRAM at 1080p, so just because it was using ~2GB of VRAM doesn't mean it had to be a 2GB card.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Well, we can't assume they will all of the sudden start using the whole 3GB or 4GB of VRAM found on AMD's high end GPUs.
> 
> Without Mantle, Battlefield 4, completely maxed out will use around ~1.8GB of VRAM at 1080p, so just because it was using ~2GB of VRAM doesn't mean it had to be a 2GB card.


It said allocated and it also showed how much was being used.
But yeah it could've been a R9 290X for all we know.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> It showed ~2GB of video memory so I guess that would make it a 270X maybe hybrid CF with Kaveri but we don't know that.


I went back and looked at the video, and the text is super blurry, but.....

It looked like it was using just over 2GB, but to the right of that it showed over 3GB as on the system, at least that is what it looked like.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> People still getting crashes in BF4?


Some of us all the time.

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2955065670158725597/615/

615 pages and rising.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> People still getting crashes in BF4?


No crashing here


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Some of us all the time.
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2955065670158725597/615/
> 
> 615 pages and rising.


It seems like a lot of people actually don't have the problem anymore but some people still have problems now there are always people with problems because of not having their stuff in order.
OC instabilities and polluted windows installations seems to be some of the major contributing problems among those people.


----------



## kzone75

There was a Bitfenixy looking mITX case in the background during the webcast. I'm going to guess that the demo was run on a Kaveri platform with 290x.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> There was a Bitfenixy looking mITX case in the background during the webcast. I'm going to guess that the demo was run on a Kaveri platform with 290x.


You're right might have been it let me take a closer look at it


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> It seems like a lot of people actually don't have the problem anymore but some people still have problems now there are always people with problems because of not having their stuff in order.
> OC instabilities and polluted windows installations seems to be some of the major contributing problems among those people.


Everyone cries on a daily basis on the forums about something or another. Truth of the matter is the ones who know what the heck is going on with their computers dont have any issues


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Everyone cries on a daily basis on the forums about something or another. Truth of the matter is the ones who know what the heck is going on with their computers dont have any issues


I beg to differ. I am crashing on a 2500k, a C2Q 9450,an i5-2310m,an A6-3400M and an i5-760, stock or overclocked, on HDD or SSD, with fresh windows or old. The game has crashing issues on consoles even and had its content releases put on hold because of problems, let's not go there.




Like,seriously.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Everyone cries on a daily basis on the forums about something or another. Truth of the matter is the ones who know what the heck is going on with their computers dont have any issues


Couldn't agree more, all these so called issues, are just user errors most of the time.
I see people complaining about drivers, their games not working, yet I've never experienced any of that since I started playing games on my PC.


----------



## OverSightX

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Couldn't agree more, all these so called issues, are just user errors most of the time.
> I see people complaining about drivers, their games not working, yet I've never experienced any of that since I started playing games on my PC.


Agreed. There haven't been any issues for me other than the same issues I have run into on pretty much every game I've ever played. Unfortunately people with the good experiences are usually the quietest ones. I have two main systems in my house and both run it just fine. My main rig below and the "family" rig that has a 965 BE w/ a 7870. Obviously the lesser rig cant run on extreme, but again, we've run into very minimal issues.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> There was a Bitfenixy looking mITX case in the background during the webcast. I'm going to guess that the demo was run on a Kaveri platform with 290x.


Definately not a 290x, I run 290 non X on 64 man server ULTRA MAX and get similar FPS. As you can see I rarely drop below 100 FPS (Recording takes about 10-20 FPS off, so just put that into perspective)


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> Definately not a 290x, I run 290 non X on 64 man server ULTRA MAX and get similar FPS. As you can see I rarely drop below 100 FPS (Recording takes about 10-20 FPS off, so just put that into perspective)


Look at that noobcore gameplay


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Look at that noobcore gameplay


lol probably spent about 5 hours total so far on the game


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> lol probably spent about 5 hours total so far on the game


Come play hardcore. Its an eye opening experience


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Some of us all the time.
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2955065670158725597/615/
> 
> 615 pages and rising.


Yea, since November. Looks like about 40 pages since the last patch on the 20th of December.

I can't be arsed to calculate the exact number of days since the thread started in mid November, but let's say it's about 55 days. In the past 20 or so days the thread has only gained 40 more pages. So the past 20 days (1/3 of the total days since thread start) only accounts for 7% of the total pages. I'd say it's a massive improvement in stability. DICE is clearly doing their job well.

Oh, and if BF4 closes without an error message popping up, chances are it's the particular server that had a problem and disconnected you. So it may not actually be the game that is problematic in those cases.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Come play hardcore. Its an eye opening experience


I've tried it I get lost with the no radar and idk who the hell is shooting at me lol


----------



## HanSomPa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> I've tried it I get lost with the no radar and idk who the hell is shooting at me lol


Map Awareness dude. Also, on hardcore, your bullets actually feel more like bullets. Instead of BBs.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> Definately not a 290x, I run 290 non X on 64 man server ULTRA MAX and get similar FPS. As you can see I rarely drop below 100 FPS (Recording takes about 10-20 FPS off, so just put that into perspective)


It might still have been a 270X your FPS is like ~120 most of the time ad another 10/20fps to simulate not recording and you get 130+, well over the ~100+ we saw in the video.
While this wasn't the same map nor the same area nor the same circumstances we can deduct actual potential mantle gain.

Okay on average the 270X is ~35% slower or a factor 0,65 to the R9 290.
we take 100fps as shown in the demonstration of mantle and divide that by (0,65 * 130) this gives us a ~17% increase which is really quite possible.

So we got in terms of info a tiny pc in the background that looks to be running a 270X and have the engine show 2GiB of ram being allocated.
We have AMD's rep saying the gain will be bigger than 4% and have AMD claiming up to 45%.

It is kinda weird to not use your highest end graphics in a presentation but maybe just maybe there was a different config running here:
I think it might have been a Kaveri with a R9 250X(512SP part) or a Kaveri with a 260X it would make sense since it is where Kaveri could shine.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> Yea, since November. Looks like about 40 pages since the last patch on the 20th of December.
> 
> I can't be arsed to calculate the exact number of days since the thread started in mid November, but let's say it's about 55 days. In the past 20 or so days the thread has only gained 40 more pages. So the past 20 days (1/3 of the total days since thread start) only accounts for 7% of the total pages. I'd say it's a massive improvement in stability. DICE is clearly doing their job well.
> 
> Oh, and if BF4 closes without an error message popping up, chances are it's the particular server that had a problem and disconnected you. So it may not actually be the game that is problematic in those cases.


You say that thread is less frequent because game is more stable, I say plenty of those complaining already quit. Btw my crashes are always of the "bf4.exe has stopped" type. As I said, the game is still crashing *on consoles*. You may ignore DICE officials trying to explain that game may crash on random HW/OS combos ,or ignore the fact that we have people crashing during tournament play. The sheer fact it crashes on consoles should speak volumes of the issues this game has. I am not saying DICE isn't trying or that they haven't fixed things, but that's clearly not enough. I really hope mantle patch will be the harbinger of a fixed game,at long last.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> I've tried it I get lost with the no radar and idk who the hell is shooting at me lol


Thats why so many of us love hardcore.







Its actually a challenge


----------



## geoxile

Dec 10:
http://web.archive.org/web/20131210033159/http://bf4stats.com/

Now:
http://bf4stats.com/

What you're saying isn't even evidence in support of your claim that "plenty of those complaining already quit". When you can quantify the changes in the total population, you're qualified to make such a claim.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> Dec 10:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20131210033159/http://bf4stats.com/
> 
> Now:
> http://bf4stats.com/
> 
> What you're saying isn't even evidence in support of your claim that "plenty of those complaining already quit". When you can quantify the changes in the total population, you're qualified to make such a claim.


5.2k less players on right now? A reduction of 15%? Is this what you are trying to say?


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> 5.2k less players on right now? A reduction of 15%? Is this what you are trying to say?


I'm saying the total population increased by 25% percent, in spite of the claim that the game is "still crashing on consoles" AND the ban and censorship of the game in China at the end of December. It's pretty clear your claims are unsubstantiated.


----------



## RX7-2nr

The first time I joined a hardcore server in BF3 I left and rejoined a couple times. I thought my screen was bugged out because the map didn't work and I couldn't see ammo/health.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> I'm saying the total population increased by 25% percent, in spite of the claim that the game is "still crashing on consoles" AND the ban and censorship of the game in China at the end of December. It's pretty clear your claims are unsubstantiated.


I see quite the opposite. Without taking PS4/Xbone numbers into consideration since they were freshly launched 1month ago (so their BF4 population hasn't climbed yet),between 10th of dec and now, I see a 15% player increase on PS3 (40.6 to 46.6k), a 12% increase on XBOX 360 (47.7k to 53.3k) and a 15% *decrease* on PC (35.2k to 30.4k)...You just proved my point, PC population is declining. But no worries, there are plenty of us out there that really,really,really want to play this game. We just can't.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

So still no video from the on site Demo? seriously? -____-


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> So still no video from the on site Demo? seriously? -____-


???






It is a VERY brief demo that starts at 31:00 and goes for a whole ~2 minutes.


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> I see quite the opposite. Without taking PS4/Xbone numbers into consideration since they were freshly launched 1month ago (so their BF4 population hasn't climbed yet),between 10th of dec and now, I see a 15% player increase on PS3 (40.6 to 46.6k), a 12% increase on XBOX 360 (47.7k to 53.3k) and a 15% *decrease* on PC (35.2k to 30.4k)...You just proved my point, PC population is declining. But no worries, there are plenty of us out there that really,really,really want to play this game. We just can't.


Your post is right here:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> You say that thread is less frequent because game is more stable, I say plenty of those complaining already quit. Btw my crashes are always of the "bf4.exe has stopped" type. As I said, the game is still crashing *on consoles*. You may ignore DICE officials trying to explain that game may crash on random HW/OS combos ,or ignore the fact that we have people crashing during tournament play. The sheer fact it crashes on consoles should speak volumes of the issues this game has. I am not saying DICE isn't trying or that they haven't fixed things, but that's clearly not enough. I really hope mantle patch will be the harbinger of a fixed game,at long last.


PC population declining was never your point. But feel free to change the goal post to make yourself feel better. And never mind the fact that you explicitly brought up console issues and even emphasized that point.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> ???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a VERY brief demo that starts at 31:00 and goes for a whole ~2 minutes.


According to the official Press Release from AMD they are showing a live Battlefield 4 Mantle Demo at their booth @ 4K.

Here's something new: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yak25TKCCrc


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> Your post is right here:
> PC population declining was never your point. But feel free to change the goal post to make yourself feel better. And never mind the fact that you explicitly brought up console issues and even emphasized that point.


I am not changing a thing, you got it all wrong from the start. I only play on the PC and my crash criticism was about the PC. Consoles were specifically brought up to prove another thing.Because there is crashing going on there as well, which clearly indicates it is not just bloated OS or faulty hardware that causes issues on the pc, since consolidated platforms (consoles) have issues too. The thread I linked before (the one you scrutinized and came to the conclusion that less people have issues), is from the PC segment of battlelog forums, our whole talk was about PC players, and PC population is declining, as you ,yourself have proven. And my guess is that it is declining because the game was launched broken, and it remains like that. When they fix it, numbers will get back up.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> According to the official Press Release from AMD they are showing a live Battlefield 4 Mantle Demo at their booth @ 4K.
> 
> Here's something new: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yak25TKCCrc


Oh, yea, that demo is for people attending to play. I don't even know if people can film that or not....I haven't seen a single video of it yet.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> I am not changing a thing, you got it all wrong from the start. I only play on the PC and my crash criticism was about the PC. Consoles were specifically brought up to prove another thing.Because there is crashing going on there as well, which clearly indicates it is not just bloated OS or faulty hardware that causes issues on the pc, since consolidated platforms (consoles) have issues too. The thread I linked before (the one you scrutinized and came to the conclusion that less people have issues), is from the PC segment of battlelog forums, our whole talk was about PC players, and PC population is declining, as you ,yourself have proven. And my guess is that it is declining because the game was launched broken, and it remains like that. When they fix it, numbers will get back up.


How come I don't get crashes? I used to get bugs before like audio sound deaf etc, but never frequent crashes.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Oh, yea, that demo is for people attending to play. I don't even know if people can film that or not....I haven't seen a single video of it yet.


The video I just posted was from the AMD booth itself, so I guess it's allowed, isn't that the whole point of CES after all?

I do know most companies have private sessions with the press (products under NDA), but you're free to take pics, videos, when attending the booths, and according to the press release from AMD, the 4K showing of BF4 Mantle was going to take place on their booth.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> How come I don't get crashes? I used to get bugs before like audio sound deaf etc, but never frequent crashes.


Just read what I linked before:
http://pcgmedia.com/dice-employee-explains-battlefield-4-buggy/

_"When a code that's not "thread-safe" executes on multiple sources, it's a coincidence if it works or if it crashes. All the codes become "timing dependant" and different hardware combined with different background processes and OS's, have different timing. "
_
_
"He also says that "at work, we all have pretty similar machines and it's pretty hard to cover all the different versions of timing".
The user claims that they were not prepared for all the issues with Battlefield 4, and that no one EA or DICE has ever said "F*ck it, let's release it anyway." He also states that they're "working hard on solving all the remaining problems within the game, and apparently many of the problems have been fixed in the last patch. But since the game is so timing-dependant, it's hard to say how many problems we have left to fix.""_

Basically the game is so complex ,and so well threaded ,it is very hit or miss. It may not like a certain processor used with certain memory on certain OS or what have you. Hit or miss. And it naturally is hard to fix all major issues.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> The video I just posted was from the AMD booth itself, so I guess it's allowed, isn't that the whole point of CES after all?
> 
> I do know most companies have private sessions with the press (products under NDA), but you're free to take pics, videos, when attending the booths, and according to the press release from AMD, the 4K showing of BF4 Mantle was going to take place on their booth.


I'd like to hear wether Thief will launch with full Mantle support or will it be added later on.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> The video I just posted was from the AMD booth itself, so I guess it's allowed, isn't that the whole point of CES after all?
> 
> I do know most companies have private sessions with the press (products under NDA), but you're free to take pics, videos, when attending the booths, and according to the press release from AMD, the 4K showing of BF4 Mantle was going to take place on their booth.


I believe they have a second booth they are calling the "Surround House" or something like that, where they are demoing audio and video things....

The video we both linked was from their general presentation, which is separate from their magic little booth/house thing they have going on. At least that is what I have gotten from all the info flying out of CES.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Rofl. I can game on my phone. Hardware doesnt make you a gamer


Sorry, playing on a phone doesn't make you a gamer, it makes you a bored geek waiting for the bus.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Sorry, playing on a phone doesn't make you a gamer, it makes you a bored geek waiting for the bus.


Nice logic. Probably you confuuse stupid epeen wiith gaming. So playing gta on my phone make me a geek but playiing on 2 titans make me a gamer.


----------



## Tifached

I hate marketing hype like this. Up to 45%, yeah, sure... but to be more precise

up to 45% in a specific scene, for maybe a specific time..

It might be good, but untill i see it running on my end, i dont buy it


----------



## Mopar63

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Sorry, playing on a phone doesn't make you a gamer, it makes you a bored geek waiting for the bus.


And the elitist snobbery of a 12 year old shows through. News flash if you play solitaire with a deck of cards on a table you are a "gamer". Being a "gamer" is someone that plays games.

In fact I will even go a step further if you like, perhaps you should consider that board and pen and paper gamers might be more gamer than PC or console. They actually do the work of the game and do not need a machine to do it for them.

Gamers come in all shapes and sizes. From the grandmother that plays hearts every night to the ubergeek with a $3K rig and 6 monitors playing BF4, all are gamers.


----------



## mltms

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tifached*
> 
> I hate marketing hype like this. Up to 45%, yeah, sure... but to be more precise
> 
> up to 45% in a specific scene, for maybe a specific time..
> 
> It might be good, but untill i see it running on my end, i dont buy it


dont buy what ?
its your mony after all you can buy gtx780 for $500 and have the same performance is 290 in dirctx
or buy 290 for $400 and have more performance in mantle games


----------



## Tifached

i dont buy their 45% claim


----------



## Aparition

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> People still getting crashes in BF4?


No, but I do think there is a memory leak somewhere. It might be with windows though.
If I leave my system on for a long time and let it sleep eventually BF4 will constantly crash at load. However with a system restart I can play normally, for hundreds of hours.

I've disabled sleep on my system and am seeing if that has resolved this weird crash issue.

BF4 doesn't crash for me outside of this prolonged system sleep thing.


----------



## Choopy!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> And the elitist snobbery of a 12 year old shows through. News flash if you play solitaire with a deck of cards on a table you are a "gamer". Being a "gamer" is someone that plays games.
> 
> In fact I will even go a step further if you like, perhaps you should consider that board and pen and paper gamers might be more gamer than PC or console. They actually do the work of the game and do not need a machine to do it for them.
> 
> Gamers come in all shapes and sizes. From the grandmother that plays hearts every night to the ubergeek with a $3K rig and 6 monitors playing BF4, all are gamers.


Maybe he should have just said "casual gamer" or something







. Which, wouldn't really be accurate either. I'm a pretty casual gamer, but I play games a lot, and have for most of my life. Video games hobbyist? Apparently "gamer" is too broad.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Sorry, playing on a phone doesn't make you a gamer, it makes you a bored geek waiting for the bus.


You really don't know the meaning of the word GAMER.
I play emulated games on my phone: sega genesis, nintendo, super nintendo, playstation, gameboy advance and dreamcast.
I also play games with my rig.
I also play board games.
I also play pen & paper games.

A gamer is someone who enjoys gaming and does it as a hobby or profession. And it doesn't extend only to PC or console gaming.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Nice logic. Probably you confuuse stupid epeen wiith gaming. So playing gta on my phone make me a geek but playiing on 2 titans make me a gamer.


If you think playing GTA XVI on a 5" phone screen in any reasonable way compares to playing it on a 24" or 27" (or larger) screen, and that a the person who plays it on a 5" phone is a "Gamer", then I guess we will never see eye to eye.

That is almost as silly as what Mopar63 was trying to say about pencil-and-paper "gamers". He too doesn't realize that this is a forum about computers, not PNP Dungeons and Dragons ... which I started playing when it was called "Chainmail" back in the early 1970s, but haven't played in well over 25 years now.

Which reminds me, I really should go sell my books, maybe the 2 copies of "Deities and Demigods" with the Melnibonean mythos are worth some money.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> You really don't know the meaning of the word GAMER.
> I play emulated games on my phone: sega genesis, nintendo, super nintendo, playstation, gameboy advance and dreamcast.
> I also play games with my rig.
> I also play board games.
> I also play pen & paper games.
> 
> A gamer is someone who enjoys gaming and does it as a hobby or profession. And it doesn't extend only to PC or console gaming.


Yes I do. I've "gamed" on everything you've mentioned above. Very often, since before most of the people on this board were born.

I also understand what type of board we are on, and how it applies to this thread.

So please, just stop with the silly Pencil and Paper and Board Game stuff on a thread about Mantle. 95% of the things you mentioned above have NOTHING to do with Mantle.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Sorry, playing on a phone doesn't make you a gamer, it makes you a bored geek waiting for the bus.
> 
> 
> 
> You really don't know the meaning of the word GAMER.
> I play emulated games on my phone: sega genesis, nintendo, super nintendo, playstation, gameboy advance and dreamcast.
> I also play games with my rig.
> I also play board games.
> I also play pen & paper games.
> 
> A gamer is someone who enjoys gaming and does it as a hobby or profession. And it doesn't extend only to PC or console gaming.
Click to expand...

This is my personal feeling...a gamers hobby is gaming. Really the only reason I think I ever started PC gaming was because my source of people to play pen and paper roleplaying and board games dried up, but now I'd never stop it if I ever able to get a table top group going.

However, if you are only playing games on your phone and/or playing light Flash games on a PC and/or only playing board games...I don't call you a gamer. That describes my wife precisely and she would make no claims of being a gamer. She'd likely be offended by the term.

A person that only plays games on a high-end PC would be called a "PC Gamer" in my opinion...and change the prefix for whatever type of gaming they do. There are also many levels of gaming in side each "catagory"...just like with anything. A person who pays $8 for 10 minutes on a local go-cart track should not be put in the same league of racing as a person who has built their own dirt track Modified class race car. You can't just lump every single person who has ever played one round of angry birds on an old iPhone in with some one running a high-end GPU and overclocked system and plays a minimum of 20 hours week. If you're going to play the game you got to wear the uniform...and buy the equipment.

Perhaps it sounds like I am overthinking this...but really it is a knee jerk reaction. "Oh you only play on a console?" _I am talking to a console gamer_. "Oh you have 40 different games on your hone?" _I am talking to a casual gamer_. Oh, you get together each weekend to play Magic: The Gathering? _I am talking to a group of virgins_


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tifached*
> 
> I hate marketing hype like this. Up to 45%, yeah, sure... but to be more precise
> 
> up to 45% in a specific scene, for maybe a specific time..
> 
> It might be good, but untill i see it running on my end, i dont buy it


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tifached*
> 
> i dont buy their 45% claim


Well up to is a valid thing to say but I calculated a 17% gains from a 270X


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Tifached*
> 
> I hate marketing hype like this. Up to 45%, yeah, sure... but to be more precise
> 
> up to 45% in a specific scene, for maybe a specific time..
> 
> It might be good, but untill i see it running on my end, i dont buy it
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Tifached*
> 
> i dont buy their 45% claim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well up to is a valid thing to say but I calculated a 17% gains from a 270X
Click to expand...

All percentile numbers are sensational...17% might sound like a lot, but what was that? 2 frames more a second?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> All percentile numbers are sensational...17% might sound like a lot, but what was that? 2 frames more a second?


15 frames more a second if it was a 270x at ultra. (1080P)


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> All percentile numbers are sensational...17% might sound like a lot, but what was that? 2 frames more a second?
> 
> 
> 
> 15 frames more a second if it was a 270x at ultra. (1080P)
Click to expand...

Now you see..._that_ is actual valuable information.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> So please, just stop with the silly Pencil and Paper and Board Game stuff on a thread about Mantle. 95% of the things you mentioned above have NOTHING to do with Mantle.


I'm sorry to tell you that I'm more than aware of this as I am the OP.
I was just stating an opinion, actually.... a fact.

According to Webster:

gam·er noun \ˈgā-mər\
: a person who plays games and especially video or computer games

: a person who is game; especially : an athlete who tries very hard to win games, competitions, etc.

So yeah, a gamer plays games (any kind, but mostly VIDEO GAMES). Lets just stop the nonsense.

In regards to Mantle I would like to find an article which states a release date for BF4 patch !


----------



## junkerde

i play scrabble and monopoly so yeah i consider myself a gamer


----------



## Artev

Gamers game. Everything else is pretense.


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Well up to is a valid thing to say but I calculated a 17% gains from a 270X


based on what?


----------



## Hardpro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yak25TKCCrc


----------



## Domino

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Domino*
> 
> The GPUs behind the APUs are severely bottlenecked. I wouldn't be surprised APUs see the most benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> Are bottlenecked by what?
> 
> The whole point of Mantle is that it will move the bottleneck back to the actual GPU itself (where it should be), no more CPU spoon feeding the GPU, so the CPU should, theoretically, never bottleneck the GPU.
Click to expand...

By the CPUs... what else would the be bottlenecked by? The RAM is another source of the bottleneck, but not as heavy as the CPU side of things. That is where the APU absolutely fail. You pair a GPU that matches the specs in the APU with a faster CPU and you get significantly better performance. Let alone, multi-GPU solutions with an APU so little to no benefits half the time as the CPU is unable to pre-render frames fast enough, or the RAM latencies are far too great.


----------



## Stay Puft

We should start an over / under on what the gains are going to be


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> We should start an over / under on what the gains are going to be


lol


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artev*
> 
> based on what?


The numbers a 290 put's out on ultra at 1080P normalized for the 270x which is anout 35% slower or a factor 0,65.
Then taking the score of the 290 doing that times 0,65 and deviding the average framerate in the Mantle demo by that number.

Other combinations that could've been used are a 260x with kaveri or a not yet released "250x".


----------



## TopicClocker

Anyone seen this? Not sure if its been posted yet.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TopicClocker*
> 
> Anyone seen this? Not sure if its been posted yet.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


yes it was and pretty much everyone here watched that presentation.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TopicClocker*
> 
> Anyone seen this? Not sure if its been posted yet.


Interesting way he chooses to phrase what he said at the 0:20 mark.

This is up to 45% faster with Mantle than the original version on the same hardware.

He DIDN'T say that SAME version of Battlefield 4 is 45% faster running in Mantle Mode over DirectX mode.

Now while some will think that is splitting hairs, it isn't. Why? Because when you are comparing one version of the game to another, just because you switch from DirectX to Mantle doesn't mean that OTHER FIXES in the game didn't account for some (or all) of that 45%.

So what does this mean?

Until a person not associated with AMD and DICE/EA can get their hands on the game and can run it for themselves and toggle the SAME VERSION of the software between DirectX mode and Mantle mode on the same hardware ... the improvements will be questionable.


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Interesting way he chooses to phrase what he said at the 0:20 mark.
> 
> This is up to 45% faster with Mantle than the original version on the same hardware.
> 
> He DIDN'T say that SAME version of Battlefield 4 is 45% faster running in Mantle Mode over DirectX mode.
> 
> Now while some will think that is splitting hairs.


Dear god...yes you are splitting hairs.


----------



## Yvese

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Interesting way he chooses to phrase what he said at the 0:20 mark.
> 
> This is up to 45% faster with Mantle than the original version on the same hardware.
> 
> He DIDN'T say that SAME version of Battlefield 4 is 45% faster running in Mantle Mode over DirectX mode.
> 
> Now while some will think that is splitting hairs, it isn't. Why? Because when you are comparing one version of the game to another, just because you switch from DirectX to Mantle doesn't mean that OTHER FIXES in the game didn't account for some (or all) of that 45%.
> 
> So what does this mean?
> 
> Until a person not associated with AMD and DICE/EA can get their hands on the game and can run it for themselves and toggle the SAME VERSION of the software between DirectX mode and Mantle mode on the same hardware ... the improvements will be questionable.


----------



## James4832

What was that 45% bonus on, a system that could run it at 2 FPS, so now its 3 FPS? (JK)


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Interesting way he chooses to phrase what he said at the 0:20 mark.
> 
> This is up to 45% faster with Mantle than the original version on the same hardware.
> 
> He DIDN'T say that SAME version of Battlefield 4 is 45% faster running in Mantle Mode over DirectX mode.
> 
> Now while some will think that is splitting hairs, it isn't. Why? Because when you are comparing one version of the game to another, just because you switch from DirectX to Mantle doesn't mean that OTHER FIXES in the game didn't account for some (or all) of that 45%.
> 
> So what does this mean?
> 
> Until a person not associated with AMD and DICE/EA can get their hands on the game and can run it for themselves and toggle the SAME VERSION of the software between DirectX mode and Mantle mode on the same hardware ... the improvements will be questionable.


Your trolling is becoming more and more obvious. Stop trying to tell people what things mean lol. Just worry about understanding what things mean yourself.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Interesting way he chooses to phrase what he said at the 0:20 mark.
> 
> This is up to 45% faster with Mantle than the original version on the same hardware.
> 
> He DIDN'T say that SAME version of Battlefield 4 is 45% faster running in Mantle Mode over DirectX mode.
> 
> Now while some will think that is splitting hairs, it isn't. Why? Because when you are comparing one version of the game to another, just because you switch from DirectX to Mantle doesn't mean that OTHER FIXES in the game didn't account for some (or all) of that 45%.
> 
> So what does this mean?
> 
> Until a person not associated with AMD and DICE/EA can get their hands on the game and can run it for themselves and toggle the SAME VERSION of the software between DirectX mode and Mantle mode on the same hardware ... the improvements will be questionable.


Yeah because Mantle will probably be running the latest greatest revision of the BF4 source code because it totally wasn't delayed at all.
If anything that demo wouldn't have the latest revision of the game but lets assume it actually had a newer revision.
Do you think it would make a 25% difference of added performance while they are actually bug-hunting?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *James4832*
> 
> What was that 45% bonus on, a system that could run it at 2 FPS, so now its 3 FPS? (JK)


I'm sure that if that was the case they would've taken the weakest proccesor with pci-e 1.1 16x add a 290x to it and voila.
They might even run low res to make the cpu bottleneck more significant.
From 5fps to 140fps BANG a 2700% increase in performance.


----------



## AlDyer

Oh my effin god. They SAID 45% over the SAME system running directx and it is quite obvious. They are not comparing different systems. I can also tell you with 95% certainty that the system is running a Kaveri and a R9 270X


----------



## Newbie2009

Wonder how much hate for this there would be if Nvidia were using mantle too.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Newbie2009*
> 
> Wonder how much hate for this there would be if Nvidia were using mantle too.


Actually, not on first stages, but later on, Mantle *could* be used by other graphics accelerators such as Nvidia cards. But I don't think Nvidia can step down from its pride platform and use this.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

You know my background. You know I have owned WAY MORE ATI/AMD video cards than I have nVidia (which amounts to 3 cards ... GTX 580/560Ti/780). I still own AMD cards, and before I bought my 580, I've never owned an nVidia card before, and I've been gaming in the PC world since the early 1980's.

So spare me the "He's an nVidia fanboy" garbage. I use the best tool for the job, and right now, for how I use my computer, that means nVidia.

But I digress, that has nothing to do with the claims that AMD has made and has as of yet, been independently verified by anyone not closely associated with AMD.

All they have to do is put out a BF4 demo that allows you to switch between DirectX and Mantle and that will confirm things.

Mark my words, it will eventually happen, and when it does, there will be a TON of crow to be eaten. Either by you or me. Either way, crow will be an endangered species, and the future of both DirectX and Mantle, and maybe AMD and nVidia as leaders of the market share hangs in the balance.


----------



## EastCoast

Mantle patch will be released for BF4. Gamers will rejoice, albeit more so the quite majority, increase in frame rates are had for everyone. Don't be surprised if there is any nitpicking once benchmarks show AMD cards pulling ahead. Anyone remember Assassins creed with the DX 10.1? You know, DX10.1 removed a rendering pass (vs dx10) that improved performance in AA for cards that supported dx10.1? It was later removed when all was needed was fix for a graphical glitch. Look at the results with and without AA.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2008/08/13/amd-ati-radeon-hd-4870-x2/11


----------



## Fniz92

I feel like I'm the only one using nVidia cards who want mantle to succeed, It's pathetic.
The better mantle becomes, the more likely nVidia will accept coding to mantle, win for everyone.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> I feel like I'm the only one using nVidia cards who want mantle to succeed, It's pathetic.
> The better mantle becomes, the more likely nVidia will accept coding to mantle, win for everyone.


Haha, you probably are. We should start a thread "how many nvidia users want mantle to succeed?" with a poll. I'm tipping you would be part of a very select group lol.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> Haha, you probably are. We should start a thread "how many nvidia users want mantle to succeed?" with a poll. I'm tipping you would be part of a very select group lol.


We all want Mantle to succeed. The problem we have is they throwing out the 45% number. We want solid benchmarks not some PR bs


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> We all want Mantle to succeed. The problem we have is they throwing out the 45% number. We want solid benchmarks not some PR bs


And if they hadn't given a % increase? All the nvidia guys would be saying "why so secretive, they would give us a % if it worked". At the end of the day it doesn't matter, once it's released it can be judged.


----------



## Archngamin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> Haha, you probably are. We should start a thread "how many nvidia users want mantle to succeed?" with a poll. I'm tipping you would be part of a very select group lol.


People are apprehensive that introducing new APIs will splinter the market and cause fragmentation which would require users to buy both brands to be able to play games with the features that should be included on both. I want a good API for both brands and variable refresh support for both brands but that isn't what is happening. Nvidia wants you to use their solution and AMD wants you to use theirs there isn't much a difference in agenda or execution since the end result is fragmentation.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> And if they hadn't given a % increase? All the nvidia guys would be saying "why so secretive, they would give us a % if it worked". At the end of the day it doesn't matter, once it's released it can be judged.


Personally i think the 45% number is BS. I'm thinking 8-10% real world gains over directX.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Archngamin*
> 
> People are apprehensive that introducing new APIs will splinter the market and cause fragmentation which would require users to buy both brands to be able to play games with the features that should be included on both. I want a good API for both brands and variable refresh support for both brands but that isn't what is happening. Nvidia wants you to use their solution and AMD wants you to use theirs there isn't much a difference in agenda or execution since the end result is fragmentation.


Not going to disagree with you there. I feel like there is a genuine dislike and wish to see each other fail from AMD and Nvidia towards each other. Hopefully it doesn't get to the point where certain games are only playable with a certain brand of gpu.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Personally i think the 45% number is BS. I'm thinking 8-10% real world gains over directX.


I think the people saying the AMD processors are going to benefit the most from this are making sense personally. It only stands to reason, they have been losing the battle with cpu's for gaming, now they have mantle which i'm tipping they worked on because of that to increases cpu performance/ off loads cpu tasks to make themselves more competitive. I will take any little boost at this stage, i'm not expecting massive gains but if it happens i won't say no


----------



## sugarhell

Do you have any coding knowledge or is just a speculation

my speculation. Just from the cpu part of mantle on non cpu limited games we can see 20% increase just from cpu optimizations.For example you cant play bf4 mp with a dual core. I expect with mantle it will be just fine. Now on gpu part i cant really know because ii am more familiar wiith nvidia architectures but i expect 10% average but this can go up as devs get more familiar with mantle.

On cpulimiited games we can see something likke 100% or 200% increase because dx is just bad


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Do you have any coding knowledge or is just a speculation
> 
> my speculation. Just from the cpu part of mantle on non cpu limited games we can see 20% increase just from cpu optimizations.For example you cant play bf4 mp with a dual core. I expect with mantle it will be just fine. Now on gpu part i cant really know because ii am more familiar wiith nvidia architectures but i expect 10% average but this can go up as devs get more familiar with mantle.
> 
> On cpulimiited games we can see something likke 100% or 200% increase because dx is just bad


Let's hope it works well, besides from offering an extra bump in performance !


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> I feel like I'm the only one using nVidia cards who want mantle to succeed, It's pathetic.
> The better mantle becomes, the more likely nVidia will accept coding to mantle, win for everyone.


Nope, you aren't.

From day one I supported the notion of having Mantle not only succeed, but be usable by nVidia and Intel and be ported over to Linux as well as Windows and totally replace DirectX.

I still would love to see that happen.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> We all want Mantle to succeed. The problem we have is they throwing out the 45% number. We want solid benchmarks not some PR bs


Exactly!


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Personally i think the 45% number is BS. I'm thinking 8-10% real world gains over directX.


I personally feel 45% is pretty extreme, not impossible, but rather extreme. In this situation I fall back to my experience with 3DFX, their Glide API and Voodoo cards. In games that supported Glide a Voodoo card would see around a 25% performance improvement over the none Glide version.

Obviously ~15 to 20 years apart makes a difference, and I believe in some cases Mantle might provide 45% increases, just not in the mainstream hardware. I am personally more interested in what Mantle looks like on an i5 with a 270x and higher GPU, as well as an FX 6300 with a 270x and higher.

Realistically that is the larger gaming market, that sort of hardware. Now, of course, I want to see what it does with an APU and low end GPU, but realistically I want to see the higher tier hardware performance.

As long as it happens before that ROG SWIFT display launches, I will be able to make a nice educated decision on if I want to run 780 Ti SLi with that display, or just stick with what I have.


----------



## Nonehxc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I personally feel 45% is pretty extreme, not impossible, but rather extreme. In this situation I fall back to my experience with 3DFX, their Glide API and Voodoo cards. *In games that supported Glide a Voodoo card would see around a 25% performance improvement over the none Glide version.*
> 
> Obviously ~15 to 20 years apart makes a difference, and I believe in some cases Mantle might provide 45% increases, just not in the mainstream hardware. I am personally more interested in what Mantle looks like on an i5 with a 270x and higher GPU, as well as an FX 6300 with a 270x and higher.
> 
> Realistically that is the larger gaming market, that sort of hardware. Now, of course, I want to see what it does with an APU and low end GPU, but realistically I want to see the higher tier hardware performance.
> 
> As long as it happens before that ROG SWIFT display launches, I will be able to make a nice educated decision on if I want to run 780 Ti SLi with that display, or just stick with what I have.


And more eye candy. I remember Half-Life and Unreal on the Voodoo3 3000 3D accelerator(yep, children, that's what the GPUs were called before they were GPUs







)I got for my 14th birthday after 2 weeks digging holes with my father.









It was marvelous, not Titan level, which is rather poor in my book, the kind of marvelous only the ones which have lived the 80s and 90s hardware can grasp. Using DirectX, performance was subpar. Using Glide, it was smooth sailing...and more eye candy that you could point your eyes at. The difference was very noticeable









For fun's sake, nowadays geeks argue cause their cards(penis) can churn out +10fps more than the other guy card brand. Not so long ago, getting a card wasn't a fps matter, but a marvel matter. Hey, you got eyefinity/surround, or 3D, or AA support for the first time. And then you got Anisotropic Filtering 1st gen support and mind was blown.

Now we only have bastard benchmarks and a cold number on the top right corner.
















45% may or may not be a hoax, but past experiences and optimism will always drive me towards expecting/dreaming for the best


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nonehxc*
> 
> And more eye candy. I remember Half-Life and Unreal on the Voodoo3 3000 3D accelerator(yep, children, that's what the GPUs were called before they were GPUs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )I got for my 14th birthday after 2 weeks digging holes with my father.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was marvelous, not Titan level, which is rather poor in my book, the kind of marvelous only the ones which have lived the 80s and 90s hardware can grasp. Using DirectX, performance was subpar. Using Glide, it was smooth sailing...and more eye candy that you could point your eyes at. The difference was very noticeable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For fun's sake, nowadays geeks argue cause their cards(penis) can churn out +10fps more than the other guy card brand. Not so long ago, getting a card wasn't a fps matter, but a marvel matter. Hey, you got eyefinity/surround, or 3D, or AA support for the first time. And then you got Anisotropic Filtering 1st gen support and mind was blown.
> 
> Now we only have bastard benchmarks and a cold number on the top right corner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 45% may or may not be a hoax, but past experiences and optimism will always drive me towards expecting/dreaming for the best


Hahahha, yea, I spent a few weeks clearing brush and digging holes for my father to afford my first Voodoo! It was a glorious moment when I walked out of the store with it, screw the bag and receipt! I ran out holding it in the air above my head like a goon!

Oh man, good times those were!


----------



## Roaches

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> I feel like I'm the only one using nVidia cards who want mantle to succeed, It's pathetic.
> The better mantle becomes, the more likely nVidia will accept coding to mantle, win for everyone.


I have high hopes as for Mantle well...[owned more Nvida cards than Radeons]...

Most of us wanted some specs and real numbers to back up the demonstration performance...If Mantle holds true to its offer, it could really save us lots of money from upgrading our CPUs in the near future.


----------



## bmgjet

Those were the days back then.
My uncle was building PCs back then I built me one with a Voodo card in it for my birthday.
He also built himself one and had a play with SLI back in those days.


----------



## Nonehxc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Hahahha, yea, I spent a few weeks clearing brush and digging holes for my father to afford my first Voodoo! It was a glorious moment when I walked out of the store with it, screw the bag and receipt! I ran out holding it in the air above my head like a goon!
> 
> Oh man, good times those were!


Yeah, I hope Nvidia and AMD(and why not, a new 3rd contender)up their game and give us back some of the feelings and experiences you got when you purchased your first MIDI card(from beep beep to beebopbapbipboopbup+spundtrack was amazing), your first graphics chip or your first 3D accel.

I remember the box design, the green face and those eyes looking at you. That was design, nowadays we get big flashy letters and a hypertechnocool photo of the card...then, we got things like THIS 

3dfx were ahead of it's time, but sadly the flame that burns twice as bright last half as long...although I prefer to consider them like...live fast, die young and leave a beautiful corpse.


----------



## dukeReinhardt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Personally i think the 45% number is BS. I'm thinking 8-10% real world gains over directX.


"up to".


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nonehxc*
> 
> Yeah, I hope Nvidia and AMD(and why not, a new 3rd contender)up their game and give us back some of the feelings and experiences you got when you purchased your first MIDI card(from beep beep to beebopbapbipboopbup+spundtrack was amazing), your first graphics chip or your first 3D accel.
> 
> I remember the box design, the green face and those eyes looking at you. That was design, nowadays we get big flashy letters and a hypertechnocool photo of the card...then, we got things like THIS
> 
> 3dfx were ahead of it's time, but sadly the flame that burns twice as bright last half as long...although I prefer to consider them like...live fast, die young and leave a beautiful corpse.


3DFX had great engineers and staff, terrible upper management, Nvidia couldn't jump on their bankrupt assets fast enough!

Leading up to actually earning enough to buy the card, I would go into the store and just look at the box across the counter. Thinking _"Yea, I see you...looking at me, all cool in that box!"_

I would absolutely love a 3rd vendor to get into the market, it is too large of a market just for Nvidia and AMD at this point. Even though there is strong competition between the two, it can still easily stagnate without a 3rd driving force. Same goes for processors.....


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> You know my background. You know I have owned WAY MORE ATI/AMD video cards than I have nVidia (which amounts to 3 cards ... GTX 580/560Ti/780). I still own AMD cards, and before I bought my 580, I've never owned an nVidia card before, and I've been gaming in the PC world since the early 1980's.
> 
> So spare me the "He's an nVidia fanboy" garbage. *I use the best tool for the job*, and right now, for how I use my computer, that means nVidia.
> 
> But I digress, that has nothing to do with the claims that AMD has made and has as of yet, been independently verified by anyone not closely associated with AMD.
> 
> All they have to do is put out a BF4 demo that allows you to switch between DirectX and Mantle and that will confirm things.
> 
> Mark my words, it will eventually happen, and when it does, there will be a TON of crow to be eaten. Either by you or me. Either way, crow will be an endangered species, and the future of both DirectX and Mantle, and maybe AMD and nVidia as leaders of the market share hangs in the balance.


The best tool for the job here is your brain, seems to be collecting dust. For one who claims they aren't a Nvidia fanboi or not an AMD basher, you never have anything good to say about AMD. Mantle comes out and you act as if anything to do with it is a lie whether it is AMD, BF4, Oxide, or anyone else. There is no lie in "up to". We all know what that means. And last I checked, I haven't seen a commercial that says, "try us were ok but not the best". Every marketing claim will show the positives and leave out the negatives, or in this case give the high number for improvement.

Heres a question: Will Mantle offer any performance boost? Seeing your post it seems you don't think so. That an API can not be more efficient than DX. See the lack of brain there?


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> Heres a question: Will Mantle offer any performance boost? Seeing your post it seems you don't think so. That an API can not be more efficient than DX. See the lack of brain there?


Odds are, yes it will see a perforance boost. Exactly what remains up in the air.

I *HIGHLY* doubt that it will be 45% as CLAIMED. About the only way I can see that happening is by "word deception" ... which AMD is getting very good at (see the other thread you and I are on about "FreeSync"). But hey, you never know, it may very well be 45% better ... on a 4K monitor, with a rig running 2 R9 290X video cards. Of course a large portion of that could be the fact that AMD has YET to fix their own damn drivers when it comes to Frame Latency win Crossfire mode in DirectX9 ... or even in DirectX10 or 11 when using multiple monitors or resolutions above 2560x1600 on a single display.
Quote:


> http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/AMDCatalyst13-12WINReleaseNotes.aspx
> 
> Frame pacing is supported on DirectX® 10 and DirectX 11 applications using resolutions up to (and including) 2560x1600 on a single display


So yeah, even with only a 10-15% REAL advantage of Mantle over DirectX (which I think is a more reasonable assumption), because AMD can't seem to fix their damn drivers after 9 MONTHS ... which comes after a YEAR of denying that there was a problem ... it might be 45%.

So I'll wait for when you can toggle DirectX or Mantle on a machine of my choosing, say a single R9 290X at 2560x1440 resolution, say on a 4770 based system with 8GB of RAM ... and we'll see if it really is 45% faster. If not, I will just put this down as an "I told you so". AMD is on record as saying this, and they had BETTER deliver that 45%, or you and a lot of other people will be eating crow.

A to be perfectly honest, as childish as this sounds, it's because of people like you, that if AMD doesn't deliver on Mantle and FreeSync (withing 12 months), I don't care if nVidia and Intel got belly up, I won't buy ANYTHING from AMD. I am sick and tired of the massive Fanboism that is coming out of Team Red. I used to be a die hard ATI fan, but honestly, the AMD fans here are making me want to VOMIT!


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Odds are, yes it will see a perforance boost. Exactly what remains up in the air.
> 
> I *HIGHLY* doubt that it will be 45% as CLAIMED. About the only way I can see that happening is by *"word deception"* ... which AMD is getting very good at (see the other thread you and I are on about "FreeSync"). But hey, you never know, it may very well be 45% better ... on a 4K monitor, with a rig running 2 R9 290X video cards. *Of course a large portion of that could be the fact that AMD has YET to fix their own damn drivers when it comes to Frame Latency win Crossfire mode in DirectX9 ... or even in DirectX10 or 11 when using multiple monitors or resolutions above 2560x1600 on a single display.
> *So yeah, even with only a 10-15% REAL advantage of Mantle over DirectX (which I think is a more reasonable assumption), *because AMD can't seem to fix their damn drivers after 9 MONTHS ... which comes after a YEAR of denying that there was a problem* ... it might be 45%.
> 
> So I'll wait for when you can toggle DirectX or Mantle on a machine of my choosing, say a single R9 290X at 2560x1440 resolution, say on a 4770 based system with 8GB of RAM ... and we'll see if it really is 45% faster. If not, I will just put this down as an "I told you so". AMD is on record as saying this, and they had BETTER deliver that 45%, or you and a lot of other people will be eating crow.
> 
> *A to be perfectly honest, as childish as this sounds, it's because of people like you, that if AMD doesn't deliver on Mantle and FreeSync (withing 12 months), I don't care if nVidia and Intel got belly up, I won't buy ANYTHING from AMD. I am sick and tired of the massive Fanboism that is coming out of Team Red. I used to be a die hard ATI fan, but honestly, the AMD fans here are making me want to VOMIT*!


Ok I will do it like this:

FIRST BOLDED: Nothing about either of these Free-sync nor Mantle is deceptive. Fact is the words *UP TO* say just that, up to. Not that it is 45% across the board no matter what you use. You cant argue 45% and leave out the up to. There are a lot of reviews, articles, advertisements, and the like that do it like this. There is nothing wrong with it. You have the right to want more specifics but to condemn because they use the words "up to", well speaks to some issues you have.

SECOND, THIRD and FOURTH BOLDED: Ok look at your tone here. Ill make it easy:
Quote:


> because Nvidia can't seem to fix their damn drivers after 9 MONTHS ... which comes after a YEAR of denying that there was a problem
> Of course a large portion of that could be the fact that INTEL has YET to fix their own damn drivers


see the anger and tone carried here. Now how would you respond to that? It isn't the tone for a rational argument. Come on man you are just a bit older than me yet you act like a spoiled brat, you should know better. It is ok for you to have opinions and issues based on your own experience and I gather you have little with the AMD front. I don't give opinions on Nvidia driver issues simply because I don't have experience with them and I generally don't hound them for it.

Everything is a choice. You and a certain other poster have felt the need to come into AMD threads and Bash AMD at every chance you can get. When others call you out on it you claim no affinity for any brand but then you end with this:
Quote:


> I won't buy ANYTHING from AMD


So that begs the question: Why come into threads of products that have no interest as a purchase for you?


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> So that begs the question: Why come into threads of products that have no interest as a purchase for you?


Maybe because if you go back and actually READ what I said, you will understand why I keep coming back ... for now.
Quote:


> *if* AMD doesn't deliver on Mantle and FreeSync (*within 12 months*), I don't care if nVidia and Intel got belly up, I won't buy ANYTHING from AMD. I am sick and tired of the massive Fanboism that is coming out of Team Red. I used to be a die hard ATI fan, but honestly, the AMD fans here are making me want to VOMIT!


Bottom line: AMD has 12 months to fix their garbage ... (ie FULLY support DirectX 9, 10, and 11 at all resolutions and with multiple monitors with their frame packing fix ... and let the public see for themselves with a simple "DirectX or Mantle" switch in the game ... that Mantle will yield 45% more FPS). *IF* they don't, then you won't have to worry about me bothering to keep up with what AMD is doing anymore, because they will be on my "Black List" of companies never to buy from again ... like Sony.

Understand now?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> It is ok for you to have opinions and issues based on your own experience and I gather you have little with the AMD front.


You gather wrong. I have owned ATI/AMD cards of every just about every generation EXCEPT for the 5000 series (and some very early ones). I still have my pair of 3870's, I sold my pair (ie Quad Crossfire) 4870x2 to an OCN member, I still a 6670 in my HTPC, I recently sold my 7950. Before that a 2400 Pro, before that an x1900, before that an X600 Pro, before that an x300 LE, before that a 9800 Pro, before that the 3D Rage and the Rage 128.

I've only owned 3 nVidia cards ... GTX 580, GTX 560Ti, and my current GTX 780's.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Knuckle just on a rager in the two AMD related threads!


----------



## Mygaffer

Why so many hurt feelings in this thread?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Personally i think the 45% number is BS. I'm thinking 8-10% real world gains over directX.


More than 4% is confirmed but in games that would be cpu limited on DX it may actually do a lot and then there is also the extra gpu performance.

Knucklehead47 getting all mad just because he has a reading comprehension.
"up to" but I can give you my guesstimate which is 15/20% and if the cpu is a really big bottleneck supposedly more.


----------



## Seallone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> ???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a VERY brief demo that starts at 31:00 and goes for a whole ~2 minutes.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Thanks I'm watching now
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND trueaudio part


wow never had an amd gpu before, for 10 years. But My next duel cards, could be AMD , I think they will blow away nvidia in 2 years. Interesting.


----------



## ejb222

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> Ok I will do it like this:
> 
> FIRST BOLDED: Nothing about either of these Free-sync nor Mantle is deceptive. Fact is the words *UP TO* say just that, up to. Not that it is 45% across the board no matter what you use. You cant argue 45% and leave out the up to. There are a lot of reviews, articles, advertisements, and the like that do it like this. There is nothing wrong with it. You have the right to want more specifics but to condemn because they use the words "up to", well speaks to some issues you have.
> 
> SECOND, THIRD and FOURTH BOLDED: Ok look at your tone here. Ill make it easy:
> see the anger and tone carried here. Now how would you respond to that? It isn't the tone for a rational argument. Come on man you are just a bit older than me yet you act like a spoiled brat, you should know better. It is ok for you to have opinions and issues based on your own experience and I gather you have little with the AMD front. I don't give opinions on Nvidia driver issues simply because I don't have experience with them and I generally don't hound them for it.
> 
> Everything is a choice. You and a certain other poster have felt the need to come into AMD threads and Bash AMD at every chance you can get. When others call you out on it you claim no affinity for any brand but then you end with this:
> So that begs the question: Why come into threads of products that have no interest as a purchase for you?


Don't waste your time man. Everyone else has tried the common sense route with him...no one has succeeded. Just let him bash and don't acknowledge it, maybe he will just go away.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mygaffer*
> 
> Why so many hurt feelings in this thread?


just relax enjoy the popcorn session


----------



## fatmario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seallone*
> 
> wow never had an amd gpu before, for 10 years. But My next duel cards, could be AMD , I think they will blow away nvidia in 2 years. Interesting.


that video shows nothing really. where is the graphic setting? what are the spec for hardware they are using for bf4 demo?

I don't think mantle provide %45 performance boost in bf4. i am not being fanboy here i been using amd graphic card for 10 years. The reason i am saying this because Amd does not have good software programmer look at the driver the released, fill with bug,glitch takes age to fix them.


----------



## sugarhell

Maybe because .net and in general windows is a buggy hell...Both nviidia and amd cant deal wiith lot of bugs because sometimes you cantdeal wtih them. ANd calling them bad when you have no idea how tough is to fix bugs for so many different rigs with a diffiicult os its kinda stupid


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fatmario*
> 
> that video shows nothing really. where is the graphic setting? what are the spec for hardware they are using for bf4 demo?
> 
> I don't think mantle provide %45 performance boost in bf4. i am not being fanboy here i been using amd graphic card for 10 years. The reason i am saying this because Amd does not have good software programmer look at the driver the released, fill with bug,glitch takes age to fix them.


It is up to 45% not 45% average so expect max 15/20% on a 270x.

AMD's drivers are on par with Nvidia's and lately they have been a tad better than Nvidia's. It used to be crap for the last couple of years but now they have Raja leading their graphics team again and he is doing good work.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fatmario*
> 
> that video shows nothing really. where is the graphic setting? what are the spec for hardware they are using for bf4 demo?


Exactly. For all we know it is running on a pair of R9 290X's and because AMD's crappy driver that they haven't bothered to fix in 9 months for DirectX9 (or multiple monitors or single monitors above 2560x1600 on a single monitor in ANY DirectX version) that could account for a large portion of the gain.

Conspiracy Theory on:

Refuse to fix your video driver for DirectX, introduce Mantle, compare the broke driver on DirectX with your new technology, and drive people to your new standard.

Not exactly a fair comparison.

Conspiracy Theory off:


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Exactly. For all we know it is running on a pair of R9 290X's and because *AMD's crappy driver that they haven't bothered to fix in 9 months for DirectX9 (or multiple monitors or single monitors above 2560x1600 on a single monitor in ANY DirectX version) that could account for a large portion of the gain.*
> 
> Conspiracy Theory on:
> 
> Refuse to fix your video driver for DirectX, introduce Mantle, compare the broke driver on DirectX with your new technology, and drive people to your new standard.
> 
> Not exactly a fair comparison.
> 
> Conspiracy Theory off:


What the holy hades does DX9 have to do with BF4? Nothing. You are getting as bad as xoleras. You make every opportunity to spout any negative you can find even if it isn't relevant to the thread at hand. And as has been stated earlier, AMD drivers are better than Nvidias for the last few months, since the 7xx releases.

Now if you wish to discuss BF4 Mantle performance, then by all means lets discuss it, without the irrelevant hate.

As far as the conspiracy, well if AMDs broke drivers are getting equal performance with Nvidia, then Nvidia must be terrible.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Exactly. For all we know it is running on a pair of R9 290X's and because AMD's crappy driver that they haven't bothered to fix in 9 months for DirectX9 (or multiple monitors or single monitors above 2560x1600 on a single monitor in ANY DirectX version) that could account for a large portion of the gain.
> 
> Conspiracy Theory on:
> 
> Refuse to fix your video driver for DirectX, introduce Mantle, compare the broke driver on DirectX with your new technology, and drive people to your new standard.
> 
> Not exactly a fair comparison.
> 
> Conspiracy Theory off:


You spilled a little of your bias again...

The R9 290(x) have a way higher framerate than shown in the Mantle demonstration in the demo it is 100/110 while on the same settings a R9 290 runs 120/140. (1080P ultra)

It is clear that it was ran on a budget gaming focused system to show of and the following configs would make sense:
Kaveri 512SP with a R7 250X(a to be released 512SP part)
Kaveri and a 260X
Kaveri for the cpu and as gpu the 270X.


----------



## iARDAs

Yeah these 45% numbers can be misleading. It says UPTO.

Just like how Nvidia claims (or AMD) that their new driver increased FPS upto 50% on Metro Last Light but all it actually does it improve the fps 50% on a very specific scenario or a moment.

If Mantle can gain 10% fps in average, it is a good thing in my book.


----------



## Ghoxt

Am I the only one that see's that hawking Mantle for months tied to BF4 of all things in an unproven / undelivered state is a failure imo by AMD's marketing dept?

Mantle... great for Devs yadda yadda whatever...When are consumers going to get it? June 2014 when BF4 will be a hugely distant memory? The game as is, is being played now, and has largely pissed off a huge paying membership already. You don't get a second chance at impressing alot of those people after the fact... They'll have moved on regardless. Playing versions 4 - 10 of other shooters that are coming out...

AMD is great at this lately, (last year, not that Nvidia doesnt do the same on occasion) They'll keep holding the carrot out there... And people buy this "Marketecture" and swear in posts that it's the holy grail while completely undelivered.

Patches to fix this is coming, after market coolers are coming, Mantle is coming... and this goes on for months...

TLR Just deliver something in the time frame your enthusiasts can actually use it. God I hate most marketing departments.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iARDAs*
> 
> Yeah these 45% numbers can be misleading. It says UPTO.
> 
> Just like how Nvidia claims (or AMD) that their new driver increased FPS upto 50% on Metro Last Light but all it actually does it improve the fps 50% on a very specific scenario or a moment.
> 
> If Mantle can gain 10% fps in average, it is a good thing in my book.


Now that you mention it, I think I saw that in AMDs release of Catalyst driver where it said specifically that it inc performance in a specific scenario/level, for BF4 I think.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ghoxt*
> 
> Am I the only one that see's that hawking Mantle for months tied to BF4 of all things in an unproven / undelivered state is a failure imo by AMD's marketing dept?
> 
> Mantle... great for Devs yadda yadda whatever...When are consumers going to get it? June 2014 when BF4 will be a hugely distant memory? The game as is, is being played now, and has largely pissed off a huge paying membership already. You don't get a second chance at impressing alot of those people after the fact... They'll have moved on regardless. Playing versions 4 - 10 of other shooters that are coming out...
> 
> AMD is great at this lately, (last year, not that Nvidia doesnt do the same on occasion) They'll keep holding the carrot out there... And people buy this "Marketecture" and swear in posts that it's the holy grail while completely undelivered.
> 
> Patches to fix this is coming, after market coolers are coming, Mantle is coming... and this goes on for months...
> 
> TLR Just deliver something in the time frame your enthusiasts can actually use it. God I hate most marketing departments.


AMD isn't afraid to push back a launch a lot of times but to be fair this seems to be beyond their control.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> What the holy hades does DX9 have to do with BF4? Nothing. You are getting as bad as xoleras. You make every opportunity to spout any negative you can find even if it isn't relevant to the thread at hand. And as has been stated earlier, AMD drivers are better than Nvidias for the last few months, since the 7xx releases.
> 
> Now if you wish to discuss BF4 Mantle performance, then by all means lets discuss it, without the irrelevant hate.
> 
> As far as the conspiracy, well if AMDs broke drivers are getting equal performance with Nvidia, then Nvidia must be terrible.


DirectX 9 has nothing to do with BF4, but not everyone plays BF4 every waking moment. Some of us play DirectX 9 games and until AMD fixes their driver, it is broken on their current driver in Crossfire mode.

Same goes with playing Battlefield 4 in DirectX mode (which is the ONLY way you can play it right now) on multiple monitors or very high resolutions.

As far as better than nVidia ... well, that too depends on your point of view. In Windowed Mode, AMD drivers do NOTHING with the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th video card to improve performance (that is another issue with AMD drivers). While nVidia drivers don't scale 100% in Windowed Mode, they do give SOME performace gain, and something is better than nothing. So for how I play (and others on OCN too), that is yet another failing of AMD that has to be addressed.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> DirectX 9 has nothing to do with BF4, but not everyone plays BF4 every waking moment. Some of us play DirectX 9 games and until AMD fixes their driver, it is broken on their current driver in Crossfire mode.
> 
> Same goes with playing Battlefield 4 in DirectX mode (which is the ONLY way you can play it right now) on multiple monitors or very high resolutions.
> 
> As far as better than nVidia ... well, that too depends on your point of view. In Windowed Mode, AMD drivers do NOTHING with the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th video card to improve performance (that is another issue with AMD drivers). While nVidia drivers don't scale 100% in Windowed Mode, they do give SOME performace gain, and something is better than nothing. So for how I play (and others on OCN too), that is yet another failing of AMD that has to be addressed.


But DX9 has nothing at all to do with the topic of the thread in any way. That was the point.

And you value windowed mode, where as I do not. No matter what point you bring there is someone who has no interest in it. Windowed mode players are not the majority I imagine. And again, being this is Mantle and likely with no windowed mode CF available, the discussion of windowed mode serves no purpose.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> DirectX 9 has nothing to do with BF4, but not everyone plays BF4 every waking moment. Some of us play DirectX 9 games and until AMD fixes their driver, it is broken on their current driver in Crossfire mode.
> 
> Same goes with playing Battlefield 4 in DirectX mode (which is the ONLY way you can play it right now) on multiple monitors or very high resolutions.
> 
> As far as better than nVidia ... well, that too depends on your point of view. In Windowed Mode, AMD drivers do NOTHING with the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th video card to improve performance (that is another issue with AMD drivers). While nVidia drivers don't scale 100% in Windowed Mode, they do give SOME performace gain, and something is better than nothing. So for how I play (and others on OCN too), that is yet another failing of AMD that has to be addressed.


when is Nvidia gonna fix their drivers, too? I feel sorry for those who paid a premium for their gpus and have to install and uninstall drivers for some games or give up playing some games. it does not happen only with amd - it happens on both sides. I think it happens more often with NVidia owners.

EDIT: I DON'T DO THIS . . .

Anything 306.97 works well for me. Just that for many 306.97 is known as the official last good driver for BF3. I do play some DayZ and Deus Ex and get lower FPS. If I decide to give BF3 a two day break, I just uninstall 306.97 and install 314.07. I have probably installed and reinstalled at least 20 times this week alone lol.

. . . I am not the only gamer in the house. I cannot afford to install and uninstall driver as normal.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> But DX9 has nothing at all to do with the topic of the thread in any way. That was the point.
> 
> And you value windowed mode, where as I do not. No matter what point you bring there is someone who has no interest in it. Windowed mode players are not the majority I imagine. And again, being this is Mantle and likely with no windowed mode CF available, the discussion of windowed mode serves no purpose.


Do you value 4k resolution on a single monitor? Because it doesn't matter what DirectX you are using or not, if you are running Crossfire at 4K resolution, the "fix" from AMD doesn't work ... even in Battlefield.

Point being, there are a TON of instances where the AMD drivers are just flat out busted and they are neglecting to fix them. Instead, they are focusing on Mantle, even though right now, no game supports it, and ALL games support DirectX.


----------



## Durquavian

Hopefully you can see this. Still no mention of DX9 but 4k and eyefinity. So you can stop your whining.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Do you value 4k resolution on a single monitor? Because it doesn't matter what DirectX you are using or not, if you are running Crossfire at 4K resolution, the "fix" from AMD doesn't work ... even in Battlefield.
> 
> Point being, there are a TON of instances where the AMD drivers are just flat out busted and they are neglecting to fix them. Instead, they are focusing on Mantle, even though right now, no game supports it, and ALL games support DirectX.


Battlefield? I played Battlefield3 in crossfire and I had no issues. Which Battlefield are you talking about? we have members that play BF4 in crossfire and have no issues.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> when is Nvidia gonna fix their drivers, too?
> 
> Anything 306.97 works well for me. Just that for many 306.97 is known as the official last good driver for BF3. I do play some DayZ and Deus Ex and get lower FPS. If I decide to give BF3 a two day break, I just uninstall 306.97 and install 314.07. I have probably installed and reinstalled at least 20 times this week alone lol.


Have you tried using a RECENT driver ... like 331.82? I don't see in your list of things where you have.

Further, it sounds like you are having an issue with certain drivers getting better FPS than others for certain games. That is totally different than "Just not working at ALL" like people have with Crossfire in ANY DirectX version in Windowed Mode. Then there is the whole stuttering issue that doesn't work, and screws up performance, even in Fullscreen Mode with multiple monitors or very high resolution single monitors.

But at least you have a solution to get your games to WORK at maximum FPS. It doesn't matter HOW FAR BACK a driver you go with AMD, THEY ALL have the same issue ... ie there ISN'T A FIX ... even if it is inconvenient.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Do you value 4k resolution on a single monitor? Because it doesn't matter what DirectX you are using or not, if you are running Crossfire at 4K resolution, the "fix" from AMD doesn't work ... even in Battlefield.
> .


That is completely untrue. Please educate yourself on things you don't own if you wish to comment on them accurately without spreading misinformation/ lies. Thank you.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Have you tried using a RECENT driver ... like 331.82? I don't see in your list of things where you have.
> 
> Further, it sounds like you are having an issue with certain drivers getting better FPS than others for certain games. That is totally different than "Just not working at ALL" like people have with Crossfire in ANY DirectX version in Windowed Mode. Then there is the whole stuttering issue that doesn't work, and screws up performance, even in Fullscreen Mode with multiple monitors or very high resolution single monitors.
> 
> But at least you have a solution to get your games to WORK at maximum FPS. It doesn't matter HOW FAR BACK a driver you go with AMD, THEY ALL have the same issue ... ie there ISN'T A FIX ... even if it is inconvenient.


You say fix but as far as I have seen AMD never claimed that CF worked in windowed mode. So what are they to fix exactly. Implement a driver maybe so it can work but since they have not claimed CF works in windowed, your claim of fix is invalid.


----------



## EastCoast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> 
> Hopefully you can see this. Still no mention of DX9 but 4k and eyefinity. So you can stop your whining.


Very interesting indeed. We know when we should see Mantle for BF4 then.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Have you tried using a RECENT driver ... like 331.82? I don't see in your list of things where you have.
> 
> Further, it sounds like you are having an issue with certain drivers getting better FPS than others for certain games. That is totally different than "Just not working at ALL" like people have with Crossfire in ANY DirectX version in Windowed Mode. Then there is the whole stuttering issue that doesn't work, and screws up performance, even in Fullscreen Mode with multiple monitors or very high resolution single monitors.
> 
> But at least you have a solution to get your games to WORK at maximum FPS. It doesn't matter HOW FAR BACK a driver you go with AMD, THEY ALL have the same issue ... ie there ISN'T A FIX ... even if it is inconvenient.


that was a NVidia owner who found it funny doing it.

you are so worried about issues in the amd side when there are issues in the NVidia side that are just as bad.

do you even play games?


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> You say fix but as far as I have seen AMD never claimed that CF worked in windowed mode. So what are they to fix exactly. Implement a driver maybe so it can work but since they have not claimed CF works in windowed, your claim of fix is invalid.


Ok, that's a fair point if you want to look at it that way.

So you could argue that AMD doesn't need to "fix" it because it isn't broke. That just means that nVidia's SLi system is technologically superior to AMD's Crossfire system in that respect.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> that was a NVidia owner who found it funny doing it.
> 
> you are so worried about issues in the amd side when there are issues in the NVidia side that are just as bad.
> 
> do you even play games?


Yes, in fact, I am playing Rift as we speak. I have it up in Windowed Mode on my main monitor and I'm typing here on my second monitor.


----------



## dustins

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> All that would be left would be for AMD to fix the driver so that it will use at least SOME portion of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th video card in Windowed mode.
> 
> :


Why do you keep saying this? Window mode is something crossfire has openly never supported. It is not broken. Why do you want/need to play in window mode anyways?


----------



## Durquavian

I think it is more to the point that when the 7xx series went to market the drivers broke a lot of games and had issues between the 6xx and 7xx cards. They seem to have gotten a handle now after about 5-6mths. I am not completely certain on the performance of present Nvidia drivers.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> I think it is more to the point that when the 7xx series went to market the drivers broke a lot of games and had issues between the 6xx and 7xx cards. They seem to have gotten a handle now after about 5-6mths. I am not completely certain on the performance of present Nvidia drivers.


lol. they are still fixing drivers for BF3 - I bet.

have a good weekend everyone. I go play BF4.


----------



## mboner1

I am looking forward to mantle personally.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Hey, that will be great it if they FINALLY actually fixed it.
> 
> Of course Q1 2014 can be a long time ... up to March 31st ... assuming that they aren't late in actually delivering the patch ... *you know, like the December 2013 release of Mantle for BF4*.
> 
> But yes, if they can FINALLY have their driver apply the frame pacing patch for ALL versions of DirectX for ALL resolutions, and for both single and multiple monitors, that will go a LONG WAY to getting me to "shut up" about AMD and their drivers.
> 
> All that would be left would be for AMD to fix the driver so that it will use at least SOME portion of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th video card in Windowed mode.
> 
> Nice find.


Implying AMD is Dice's Frostbite division is EA


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

I think this thread has gone on far enough

locked.


----------

