# waterchiller or freezer?



## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Alright so I have been reading about zero/sub zero cooling and using phase change/water chiller scares me due to condensation. My rigs tend to be 2-4 grand and the risks bothers me. My next rig will be a binned SKL and 1080 but in future 2 1080TIs when released plus other top end stuff so the risk and investment has me really concerned.

I read that chillboxes prevent the condensation issue. So my question is:

I have a large basement where my office is and I wanted to know if its possible and what would prevent me from just putting my rig in a 15 cu foot freezer with 20 gallons of ice on the bottom to allow smooth and consistent temps in the freezer (5 F change in 20 gallons of ice is 2700 watt hours of heat and about 3.5-4 cubic feet of space so plenty of room for 1-2 PCs)? Getting the cables in and out of the case would be easy and I would just go full SSD with rig and remove my RAID 0 of HDDs.

I would use peltier but its inefficient as hell compared to phase change. From what I gathered the compressor on a freezer has a 3:1 watt ratio verse a peltier has like .3:1 watt ratio. So the electricity on average would only be like 20-40 bucks a month with the freezer where i live and if I can get 400 mhz more single thread it is worth it. I was talking to silicon lottery and he is working on phase change as well for his build and he expects about that much of a boost.


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## foxrena

Freezer normally has smaller compressor as opposed to large compressor in air conditioner. The smaller compressor may not have enough cooling power to cool computer 24/7. The way freezer only need small compressor is because it is insulated and the stuff inside freezer does not generate heat like a computer. The compressor in air conditioner is more powerful, and it can cool an entire computer if you use a large compressor. You can search for "phase change chiller" to learn about it.

Compressor is generally more efficient than TEC. They have working COP of above 2. When TEC is used properly it can have COP above 1. TEC has less performance but it is quite and small. With the current technology, a quad-core Intel CPU (such as 4770K) can be cooled by a single large 62mm TEC when the hot side is cooled efficiently, and hex-core and larger will require more than one TEC.


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *foxrena*
> 
> Freezer normally has smaller compressor as opposed to large compressor in air conditioner. The smaller compressor may not have enough cooling power to cool computer 24/7. The way freezer only need small compressor is because it is insulated and the stuff inside freezer does not generate heat like a computer. The compressor in air conditioner is more powerful, and it can cool an entire computer if you use a large compressor. You can search for "phase change chiller" to learn about it.
> 
> Compressor is generally more efficient than TEC. They have working COP of above 2. When TEC is used properly it can have COP above 1. TEC has less performance but it is quite and small. With the current technology, a quad-core Intel CPU (such as 4770K) can be cooled by a single large 62mm TEC when the hot side is cooled efficiently, and hex-core and larger will require more than one TEC.


The compressor wouldn't run all the time and according to ssjwizard many of them have large enough compressors. I need a 1/4 HP-1/2 HP from my understanding.

I don't see how a 600 watt (.75hp) freezer could not keep up. I can hunt for a 1000 watt one but that seems ridiculously overkill


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## Mega Man

because they are not designed for it.

can you use it, absolutely

but one day it will fail prematurely as it has extended run times/long run times/and will not stay off long enough to "rest"

the problem is usually not as much the size of a compressor, but the way it rejects heat, most ( commercial equip being the exception ) equip passively cools itself.

even using an ac is an EXTREMELY poor idea.

that said. your idea about the water is the best i have heard but personally i believe in k.i.s.s. ( keep it simple stupid ) and right tool for the right job.

i would recommend chiller.


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mega Man*
> 
> because they are not designed for it.
> 
> can you use it, absolutely
> 
> but one day it will fail prematurely as it has extended run times/long run times/and will not stay off long enough to "rest"
> 
> the problem is usually not as much the size of a compressor, but the way it rejects heat, most ( commercial equip being the exception ) equip passively cools itself.
> 
> even using an ac is an EXTREMELY poor idea.
> 
> that said. your idea about the water is the best i have heard but personally i believe in k.i.s.s. ( keep it simple stupid ) and right tool for the right job.
> 
> i would recommend chiller.


a chiller box will be less efficient and a lot hard to make though right...Like I can just drop the PC in the freezer right and it'll be fine? Or is there more too it? Thats what i don't understand.

If i throw a fan on the compressor and keep it cool that helps right? Also what do you mean rejects heat. Seems like you might be trying to say two different things like how it cools itself or how the heat leaves the freezer...


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## billbartuska

Freezers and refrigerators don't have fans on their condensers nor on their evaporators, they cool passively, while window AC units have actively cooled (fan cooled) condensers and evaporators.That's because window AC units remove a lot more heat. Also, their refrigeration liquid temperature control circuits are completely different.

Are you are aware that in the USA you can not buy refrigerant unless you are a certified refrigeration technician?


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *billbartuska*
> 
> Freezers and refrigerators don't have fans on their condensers nor on their evaporators, they cool passively, while window AC units have actively cooled (fan cooled) condensers and evaporators.That's because window AC units remove a lot more heat. Also, their refrigeration liquid temperature control circuits are completely different.
> 
> Are you are aware that in the USA you can not buy refrigerant unless you are a certified refrigeration technician?


that's irrelevant in my case. I don't want to build one.

Doesn't sound like it would be too hard to mod to put a fan on it....that's pretty simple vs welding and custom building this.


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## billbartuska

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *billbartuska*
> 
> Freezers and refrigerators don't have fans on their condensers nor on their evaporators, they cool passively, while window AC units have actively cooled (fan cooled) condensers and evaporators.That's because window AC units remove a lot more heat. Also, their refrigeration liquid temperature control circuits are completely different.
> 
> Are you are aware that in the USA you can not buy refrigerant unless you are a certified refrigeration technician?
> 
> 
> 
> that's irrelevant in my case. I don't want to build one.
> 
> Doesn't sound like it would be too hard to mod to put a fan on it....that's pretty simple vs welding and custom building this.
Click to expand...

Putting fans on the condensers and evaporators on a freezer will have little to no effect on it's cooling capacity. It's the equivalent of removing the heat sink and fan from you CPU and just putting a fan blowing on it instead. So long as the fan is running and there is no heat load (ie the computer is turned off) the CPU will be nice and cool, but as soon as you turn on the computer - blamo!, same with refrigerator/freezer, when you put a heat load on it it won't have the capacity to continuously remove that heat load. Refrigerators/freezers are designed to only remove the heat gained through the insulation.

Again, 50 pounds of steaks has no TDP - it generates no heat. Leave the door open on your refrigerator/ freezer and in a few days you'll be buying a new compressor.


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## Mega Man

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Mega Man*
> 
> because they are not designed for it.
> 
> can you use it, absolutely
> 
> but one day it will fail prematurely as it has extended run times/long run times/and will not stay off long enough to "rest"
> 
> the problem is usually not as much the size of a compressor, but the way it rejects heat, most ( commercial equip being the exception ) equip passively cools itself.
> 
> even using an ac is an EXTREMELY poor idea.
> 
> that said. your idea about the water is the best i have heard but personally i believe in k.i.s.s. ( keep it simple stupid ) and right tool for the right job.
> 
> i would recommend chiller.
> 
> 
> 
> a chiller box will be less efficient and a lot hard to make though right...Like I can just drop the PC in the freezer right and it'll be fine? Or is there more too it? Thats what i don't understand.
> 
> If i throw a fan on the compressor and keep it cool that helps right? Also what do you mean rejects heat. Seems like you might be trying to say two different things like how it cools itself or how the heat leaves the freezer...
Click to expand...

basic ac/refrigeration ( from now on referred to as "ac" ) 101

you can not make nor destroy energy- for ac this means heat- what an ac does is move heat from point a to point b. it absorbs heat in the evap and rejects heat through the condenser. ( in terms of your house evap is above the furnace and cond is outside unit - assuming you dont have a heat pump )

if the unit can not reject heat/reject enough heat your unit will overheat. this is especially bad with r134a ( most fridges/freezers in us use r134a or 404a ) 134a oil tends to gel when overheated which will generally lead to issues

what i and others are trying to say, is simple.
if you want to do what you are saying, you can, it will work for a while. however it will fail prematurely

that said alot of people ( including overclockers ) run equip out side of manufactures recommendations and are fine - at least for a while. so make an educated choice - is the risk ok for you ?


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *billbartuska*
> 
> Putting fans on the condensers and evaporators on a freezer will have little to no effect on it's cooling capacity. It's the equivalent of removing the heat sink and fan from you CPU and just putting a fan blowing on it instead. So long as the fan is running and there is no heat load (ie the computer is turned off) the CPU will be nice and cool, but as soon as you turn on the computer - blamo!, same with refrigerator/freezer, when you put a heat load on it it won't have the capacity to continuously remove that heat load. Refrigerators/freezers are designed to only remove the heat gained through the insulation.
> 
> Again, 50 pounds of steaks has no TDP - it generates no heat. Leave the door open on your refrigerator/ freezer and in a few days you'll be buying a new compressor.


you really are all over the place and not even paying attention so I am just going to stop bothering with you at this moment bill...not sure why this is complicated for you to track but your not really providing anything meaningful here.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mega Man*
> 
> basic ac/refrigeration ( from now on referred to as "ac" ) 101
> 
> you can not make nor destroy energy- for ac this means heat- what an ac does is move heat from point a to point b. it absorbs heat in the evap and rejects heat through the condenser. ( in terms of your house evap is above the furnace and cond is outside unit - assuming you dont have a heat pump )
> 
> if the unit can not reject heat/reject enough heat your unit will overheat. this is especially bad with r134a ( most fridges/freezers in us use r134a or 404a ) 134a oil tends to gel when overheated which will generally lead to issues
> 
> what i and others are trying to say, is simple.
> if you want to do what you are saying, you can, it will work for a while. however it will fail prematurely
> 
> that said alot of people ( including overclockers ) run equip out side of manufactures recommendations and are fine - at least for a while. so make an educated choice - is the risk ok for you ?


Honestly, I don't think its that big of a deal considering what ssjwizard has done and his experience. If i am using a 3/4-1HP motor I don't see that having major issues especially if I keep it cooled.

So moving on. What do I need to do to my computer to be able to put it in a freezer without it dying. Do I need to grease or insulate anything since its in essentially a chillbox? Do I just need to keep it away from the ice and thats it?


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## seross69

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> you really are all over the place and not even paying attention so I am just going to stop bothering with you at this moment bill...not sure why this is complicated for you to track but your not really providing anything meaningful here.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually he is not all over the place you are just not understanding what he is saying and he has provided a lot of meaningful information
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't think its that big of a deal considering what ssjwizard has done and his experience. If i am using a 3/4-1HP motor I don't see that having major issues especially if I keep it cooled.
> 
> So moving on. What do I need to do to my computer to be able to put it in a freezer without it dying. Do I need to grease or insulate anything since its in essentially a chillbox? Do I just need to keep it away from the ice and thats it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but this will not work long like you want to do. I freezer is not made to removed heat that is continually generated. You can do this and if the freezer door is closed there should not be any condensation. The freezer will not last very long until the compressor overheats!!
Click to expand...


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seross69*


mo he is bouncing around. He said it'll overheat...cool the compressor solved...but than he goes on random tangent about cooling compressor doesn't increase cooling capacity....***?


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## seross69

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> mo he is bouncing around. He said it'll overheat...cool the compressor solved...but than he goes on random tangent about cooling compressor doesn't increase cooling capacity....***?


if you understand AC and refrigeration then you can understand what is being said and is not random or going in circles.

Good luck with your endeavors, I really think you should do this so you can learn the best way!! by life experience and you might find something that will prove us wrong.


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seross69*
> 
> if you understand AC and refrigeration then you can understand what is being said and is not random or going in circles.
> 
> Good luck with your endeavors, I really think you should do this so you can learn the best way!! by life experience and you might find something that will prove us wrong.


i understand it which is why i find you guys peculiar because i don't see the issue. The freezer should be far more than enough robust. Worse comes to worse I do chiller and freezer.

1500-3000 watt cooling capacity on 300-600 watts? How the heck does that not work? Plenty of down time due to the ice. The air flow inside the freezer should move around enough to equalize the sides to the inside air since the cooling coil is the entire box (depends on the design of freezer but i'll figure it out).

The fact that bill keeps ranting about it running continuously is another reason he just sounds like he is trolling today, which is sad because usually he is helpful but whatever.

Understanding how a freezer or other AC type heat exchange is simple. A 7 year old can comprehend it.

What I don't know due to lack of knowledge is what needs to be done to a computer to insure it is safe inside a freezer....thats what i keep asking but no one bothers to actually provide useful info.


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## seross69

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> i understand it which is why i find you guys peculiar because i don't see the issue. The freezer should be far more than enough robust. Worse comes to worse I do chiller and freezer.
> 
> 1500-3000 watt cooling capacity on 300-600 watts? How the heck does that not work? Plenty of down time due to the ice. The air flow inside the freezer should move around enough to equalize the sides to the inside air since the cooling coil is the entire box (depends on the design of freezer but i'll figure it out).
> 
> The fact that bill keeps ranting about it running continuously is another reason he just sounds like he is trolling today, which is sad because usually he is helpful but whatever.
> 
> Understanding how a freezer or other AC type heat exchange is simple. A 7 year old can comprehend it. That is right *heat exchange* and this is what a freezer or a AC unit does, it does not actually cool anything it uses the power to remove heat!! but most people think they are cooling and they are not. the cooling is a by-product or side effect of the heat removal!! if you are generating more heat that can be removed then it is not effective..
> 
> What I don't know due to lack of knowledge is what needs to be done to a computer to insure it is safe inside a freezer....thats what i keep asking but no one bothers to actually provide useful info.


Actually I did answer your question!! if the freezer door is closed there should not be any condensation and nothing you should have to do as long as you maintain the temperature inside the freezer.. All of the moisture will already be frozen!! Now if the temps are going to go up and down, above and below the freeze point then you will have problems or if there is a way for air to get in the freezer then you would have have problems!! Be sure and seal the holes you have to put in the freezer to get the power and other items to and from the PC.. Also make sure the freezer door is closed!!

the best way to learn sometimes is by doing and experience.. a 7 year old can comprehend that fire will burn him but he will not believe it until it actually burns him!!!

I will follow and see you progress I am always open to learn more and new things....


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seross69*
> 
> Actually I did answer your question!! if the freezer door is closed there should not be any condensation and nothing you should have to do as long as you maintain the temperature inside the freezer.. All of the moisture will already be frozen!! Now if the temps are going to go up and down, above and below the freeze point then you will have problems or if there is a way for air to get in the freezer then you would have have problems!! Be sure and seal the holes you have to put in the freezer to get the power and other items to and from the PC.. Also make sure the freezer door is closed!!
> 
> the best way to learn sometimes is by doing and experience.. a 7 year old can comprehend that fire will burn him but he will not believe it until it actually burns him!!!
> 
> I will follow and see you progress I am always open to learn more and new things....


So DDR4 RAM, CPU, fans, 950PRO, PSU all will run fine at -18C? I won't have any HDDs of course.

Should I use a heatsink and fan or should I use a water cooler in the freezer? If I use water do I need to do custom or AIB like my EK Predator 360?

Will displayport cables work fine going from -18C to ambient?


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## seross69

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> So DDR4 RAM, CPU, fans, 950PRO, PSU all will run fine at -18C? I won't have any HDDs of course.
> 
> Should I use a heatsink and fan or should I use a water cooler in the freezer? If I use water do I need to do custom or AIB like my EK Predator 360?
> 
> Will displayport cables work fine going from -18C to ambient?


You will need some type of heatsink on the cpu to keep it cool. try and experiment to see what works best. the lower temps should not affect any of the electrical components.. only time you should have problems is when you take pc out of freezer to higher temps then you might have condensation and other things.....

Explain to me how you would do a water chiller???


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

have an external water chiller piped to the GPU/s since those would generate the most heat. The freezer wouldn't bat an eye at CPUs but if I did 2x1080TIs down the road long game sessions maybe over kill.

water cooler would need to have coolant right?


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## Mega Man

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *seross69*
> 
> Actually I did answer your question!! if the freezer door is closed there should not be any condensation and nothing you should have to do as long as you maintain the temperature inside the freezer.. All of the moisture will already be frozen!! Now if the temps are going to go up and down, above and below the freeze point then you will have problems or if there is a way for air to get in the freezer then you would have have problems!! Be sure and seal the holes you have to put in the freezer to get the power and other items to and from the PC.. Also make sure the freezer door is closed!!
> 
> the best way to learn sometimes is by doing and experience.. a 7 year old can comprehend that fire will burn him but he will not believe it until it actually burns him!!!
> 
> I will follow and see you progress I am always open to learn more and new things....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So DDR4 RAM, CPU, fans, 950PRO, PSU all will run fine at -18C? I won't have any HDDs of course.
> 
> Should I use a heatsink and fan or should I use a water cooler in the freezer? If I use water do I need to do custom or AIB like my EK Predator 360?
> 
> Will displayport cables work fine going from -18C to ambient?
Click to expand...

personally most of the time i will be impressed ( while using it ) if you ever get to -18 )
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> have an external water chiller piped to the GPU/s since those would generate the most heat. The freezer wouldn't bat an eye at CPUs but if I did 2x1080TIs down the road long game sessions maybe over kill.
> 
> water cooler would need to have coolant right?


correct


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mega Man*
> 
> personally most of the time i will be impressed ( while using it ) if you ever get to -18 )
> correct


not core. Ambient. I'll run freezer at -5-0F so -18-(-21C)


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## Mega Man

Yea. That is what I ment


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## HOPELESSLYFAITH

if it doesn't maintain that than the compressor will be on 24/7. We shall see.


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## Jim86

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mega Man*
> 
> basic ac/refrigeration ( from now on referred to as "ac" ) 101
> 
> you can not make nor destroy energy- for ac this means heat- what an ac does is move heat from point a to point b. it absorbs heat in the evap and rejects heat through the condenser. ( in terms of your house evap is above the furnace and cond is outside unit - assuming you dont have a heat pump )
> 
> if the unit can not reject heat/reject enough heat your unit will overheat. this is especially bad with r134a ( most fridges/freezers in us use r134a or 404a ) 134a oil tends to gel when overheated which will generally lead to issues
> 
> what i and others are trying to say, is simple.
> if you want to do what you are saying, you can, it will work for a while. however it will fail prematurely
> 
> that said alot of people ( including overclockers ) run equip out side of manufactures recommendations and are fine - at least for a while. so make an educated choice - is the risk ok for you ?


What is 134a oil? You mean the oil in the compressor unit tends to gel I highly doubt it will gel from over heating most likely the oil will break down and become extremely thin not lubricating the pistol properly eventually leading into more mechanical failure.


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## Jim86

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *billbartuska*
> 
> Freezers and refrigerators don't have fans on their condensers nor on their evaporators, they cool passively, while window AC units have actively cooled (fan cooled) condensers and evaporators.That's because window AC units remove a lot more heat. Also, their refrigeration liquid temperature control circuits are completely different.
> 
> Are you are aware that in the USA you can not buy refrigerant unless you are a certified refrigeration technician?


You don't need to be a certified refrigeration tech to purchase refrigerant you just simply need to pass a EPA CFC exam to purchase refrigerant it is pretty easy to pass anybody with a few days to study and a afternoon to take the test will walk away with a CFC Universal certification allowing the purchase of any refrigerant in any quantities.


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## Jim86

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HOPELESSLYFAITH*
> 
> mo he is bouncing around. He said it'll overheat...cool the compressor solved...but than he goes on random tangent about cooling compressor doesn't increase cooling capacity....***?


How exactly to you plan on cooling the compressor as most of not all units sold are hermetically sealed units. Honestly this idea is pretty damn stupid ideally you would want to use a lower temperature R-12 system with a multi stage compressor or a screw or scroll type compressor which will be way out of your price range. Second dealing with condensation would also be a challenge but doable probably the easiest way would seal evaporate in a cooler chest with your computer and replace the ambient air with nitrogen.


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## axipher

Okay, here is another way to look at it. Fridges and Freezers are not designed to handle a heat source inside, this will force the compressor to run much longer than it needs to so it can keep up. Since the heat doesn't have a direct way out, it takes longer to get rid of the heat. What can happen is the compressor is going to run way outside of it's duty cycle.

Every electric motor has a duty cycle, normally expressed as a percentage or a number between 0 and 1.0. This number tells you how long the pump can run for continuously every hour. So a motor with a duty cycle of 50% or 0.5 can only safely run for 30 minutes every hour than needs 30 minutes of off time. This can be to keep the case motor case temperatures in check, bearing temperatures, the internal winding temperatures, etc.

So like other have said, running a heat source of any time in just a fridge or freezer is not going to cool that well and/or damage the fridge freezer. Also they use a ton of energy to run and there are much more efficient ways of cooling and better ways of getting sub-zero.

If you are willing to buy a bunch of ice, then put in a water loop with a coolant that has a very low freezing point then submerge your radiators in a giant insulated container to be used as an ice box with an aquarium pump to cycle the water around, otherwise you will be looking at things like phase-change and other "exotic" cooling methods.

We don't want to keep you from trying to cool your rig, a lot of us have tried the fridge/freezer method and found out already it doesn't work.

- the hot air doesn't get removed as easily form the closed space and ambient temps will creep up
- the compressor will run far more than normal and potentially out of its duty cycle which will reduce its life and/or increase heat generation in the room its in

- a big freezer uses a ton more energy, which kind of offsets any cooling benefit

If you want to look at it another way, think of your typical 250 - 500W computer under load is putting most of that power out as heat, so think of you computer as a small inefficient space heater. Stick a space heater inside a freezer to get an idea of what's going to happen, the freezer will not keep up with the heater at all.


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## Klue22

Talk about something that has been beaten to death.








Closed.


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