# Mouse from Steelseries - Rival 100



## JustinSane

Ambidextrous? 3366?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> Ambidextrous? 3366?


If true.

Mouse f4p.

If not true, I'm buying a ZA12. Similar experience to my FK2 but less button delay.


----------



## zeflow

3310


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Similarities abound. http://www.overclock.net/t/1560990/steelseries-rival-rescuer-chinese-market

http://watchmono.com/blog-entry-5534.html

Yep, it's the rival rescuer with a new name. http://detail.zol.com.cn/404/403510/pic.shtml

http://www.pcwaishe.cn/thread-638106-1-1.html

Pictures:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!











3320 looks like.


----------



## Maximillion

Is it just me or does it remind anyone else of the Castor? I know Mionix's offering isn't ambi but still.

Overall this is very exciting times. It looks like the Castor is in fact being released in a few days. Then we get this random tweet, and of course the ambi FM is looming in the distance...

Someone hold me


----------



## Lass3

Looks interesting


----------



## lexer

I hope isn't very large because my hand is small







... Looks promising


----------



## Lass3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lexer*
> 
> I hope isn't very large because my hand is small
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... Looks promising


Yes, the normal Rival was way too big.. This looks more like Mionix Castor in terms of size


----------



## qsxcv

looks like 3320... i can maybe make out a "PMW" in that pcb image but it's too blurry


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> looks like 3320... i can maybe make out a "PMW" in that pcb image but it's too blurry


Yeah picture is blurry sadly, but looking around I saw customer service reps on jd.com state that the sensor is the 3320. For whatever that's worth. Guess this where we finally see the sensor used by the "bigger" peripheral companies.


----------



## TriviumKM

I remember a SS rep saying they were working on an ambi Rival a couple weeks ago, but the Rival Rescuer is an ergo mouse, or am i misunderstanding?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> I remember a SS rep saying they were working on an ambi Rival a couple weeks ago, but the Rival Rescuer is an ergo mouse, or am i misunderstanding?


I had the same reaction. The rescuer is ergonomic while the rival 100 isn't. A 3366 would be nice but it's probably the same 3310 found in the original rival.


----------



## turnschuh

Whats up with them?
Didnt they understand that they already got one of the best ambi shaped mouse, the sensei/xai but with a sensor which just suck for fps? I would really like to know whats their reasoning behind not making a new one equiped with a proper sensor already.

I know its about the new ambi rival in this thread but it just seems pretty ignorant by steelseries.

/rant

Sorry.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Whats up with them?
> Didnt they understand that they already got one of the best ambi shaped mouse, the sensei/xai but with a sensor which just suck for fps? I would really like to know whats their reasoning behind not making a new one equiped with a proper sensor already.
> 
> I know its about the new ambi rival in this thread but it just seems pretty ignorant by steelseries.
> 
> /rant
> 
> Sorry.


If you look closely, this essentially is the sensei. But they fixed it. The front side finally has a wall to prevent the RMB from cutting up your finger.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> If you look closely, this essentially is the sensei. But they fixed it. The front side finally has a wall to prevent the RMB from cutting up your finger.


no it isn't


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> no it isn't


From what I can see, similar rear slope and placement of apex. Similar side which has a recessed area for thumb.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> If you look closely, this essentially is the sensei. But they fixed it. The front side finally has a wall to prevent the RMB from cutting up your finger.


mhh cant see much on this one picture they tweeted^^. did you find another one?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> mhh cant see much on this one picture they tweeted^^. did you find another one?


No this is the only picture I base my observations from. And the modification to the front right side is clear if you apply the left side contour or side shell to the RMB side.


EDIT: used kana picture because the angle is closest to the rival100 pictured that I could find. Kana and sensei have similar principle in shape.

It would even seem the rival100 shares more in common with the kana based on the contours of the shell. I would guess it would share dimensions in common with the sensei if accounting for the added wall/ridge to the sides.


----------



## AnimalK

I am looking forward to trying this mouse.

As many of you on here already know I love me some 3310 so I am on the fence regarding the 3320. This is perhaps because I don't know much about that last sensor.


----------



## qsxcv

imo it's kind of a sidegrade from 3310


----------



## AnimalK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> imo it's kind of a sidegrade from 3310


Well here is to hoping I like it as much as the 3310.


----------



## qsxcv

well it's the public am010... the azio 3320 mouse didnt feel too different from my g100s during the few minutes i tried it.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> No this is the only picture I base my observations from. And the modification to the front right side is clear if you apply the left side contour or side shell to the RMB side.
> 
> 
> EDIT: used kana picture because the angle is closest to the rival100 pictured that I could find. Kana and sensei have similar principle in shape.
> 
> It would even seem the rival100 shares more in common with the kana based on the contours of the shell. I would guess it would share dimensions in common with the sensei if accounting for the added wall/ridge to the sides.


cool, thanks!


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I had the same reaction. The rescuer is ergonomic while the rival 100 isn't. A 3366 would be nice but it's probably the same 3310 found in the original rival.


Yeah, would've preferred the 3366, but it's probably gonna end up being the 3310 (doubt it'll be the 3320).

Can't really tell from the one pic, but hopefully it isn't a limo; i hate long mice.


----------



## AuraDesruu

doesn't the 3366 go public after the month of august?

I would hope that a bunch of companies would start working on new projects including the sensor.


----------



## mousefan

Wow Tigertight! First page pictures ofc.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Yeah picture is blurry sadly, but looking around I saw customer service reps on jd.com state that the sensor is the 3320. For whatever that's worth. Guess this where we finally see the sensor used by the "bigger" peripheral companies.


Either an A3050 or 3320. Given the time frame, 3320 most likely.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> doesn't the 3366 go public after the month of august?
> 
> I would hope that a bunch of companies would start working on new projects including the sensor.


Unconfirmed. But I believe logitech would have secured longer exclusivity. Or other brands are too cheap to use best sensor avaiable.


----------



## qsxcv

i'm 99% sure this is pmw. you can kind of make out the 33 and 0 as well


----------



## Nivity

Looks big, but I guess we gotta wait until specs are out.
But yeah, to big for me to use I think, even the sensei feels to big.


----------



## exitone

damn, 1st decent steelseries mouse inc.


----------



## ramraze

Definitely excited, since I quite liked the vanilla Rival. Will have to see about dimensions, though.


----------



## m1hka

I really hope it won't have senseri/kana/kinzu sensor placement.


----------



## rivage

Do we have any details on when it's going to be released?


----------



## ramraze

While it looks very promising, tbh, the butt appears to be very small and short, including the back arc, reminding the kana shape. It didn't fill the hand at all, but let's see







Too early to make opinions.


----------



## Lass3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> While it looks very promising, tbh, the butt appears to be very small and short, including the back arc, reminding the kana shape. It didn't fill the hand at all, but let's see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too early to make opinions.


Fill the hand? I think this design is targeted against claw / fingertip grip users. Very small hands might be able to palm it..


----------



## mitavreb

http://www.pcwaishe.cn/thread-638106-1-1.html

This looks really small. It's like another claw grip mouse. Width seems to be lacking to be able to palm.


----------



## treav0r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mitavreb*
> 
> http://www.pcwaishe.cn/thread-638106-1-1.html
> 
> This looks really small. It's like another claw grip mouse. Width seems to be lacking to be able to palm.


this is a totally different mouse from the rival 100 mentioned in the OT


----------



## iceskeleton

when is the next LAN fnatic csgo will attend? Might get more pictures there since it looks like some of them will be using it


----------



## Insan1tyOne

I really enjoy my Sensei... But I have used it so much that a lot of the metal coating on the top is just flaking right off. Soon I might just take the mouse apart and try to get it all off. But I think this new mouse looks really good. I love the size and feel of ambidextrous mice.

I am not a "mouse enthusiast" and I do not know the difference between sensors or what importance or difference a certain sensor even makes in games. But what I do know is that I really enjoy SteelSeries gear and this will probably be my next mouse.

- Insan1tyOne


----------



## boogdud

I hope they go back to Omrons rather than the "steelseries" switches. While it was nice that they were really quiet, they were somehow both mushy and took a lot of force to actuate. Not a good combo.

I know this is about the 'rival 100' but man, I really really want one of those 'rival rescuer's. Mouse looks absolutely fantastic size/shape wise.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i'm 99% sure this is pmw. you can kind of make out the 33 and 0 as well


Definitely see PMW 33 to start. Thought I saw outline of a 1 next but sensor doesn't look like a 3310 so probably my eyes playing tricks on me. Layout looks just like the AM010.


----------



## zeflow

From reading some stuff on Twitter, it's ambi shaped with left side buttons only


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> From reading some stuff on Twitter, it's ambi shaped with left side buttons only


Good!


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mitavreb*
> 
> http://www.pcwaishe.cn/thread-638106-1-1.html
> 
> This looks really small. It's like another claw grip mouse. Width seems to be lacking to be able to palm.


That actually looks better


----------



## doors1991

more of the same


----------



## the1onewolf

Looking forward to this.
I hope this one has better less oil absorbing coating


----------



## Junki3e

Hoping that the rubber does not wear out or peel off fast after short-term usage :/


----------



## atarii

Quote:


> http://www.pcwaishe.cn/thread-638106-1-1.html


a smaller ec2 with smoothing free sensor (at least @ 400 dpi) and omrons?!



----

If the rival 100 will use a 3310 is a big no for me...


----------



## qsxcv

it's not known whether 3320 has a fixed amount of smoothing or if it's variable like on the g302/g402's am010. hopefully, regardless, it will be <1ms like on logitech's am010 mice.


----------



## popups

It looks bad.


----------



## Nilizum

You look bad. JK, but IMO the chinese Rival Rescue looks pretty bad. The Rival100 doesn't look so bad at first glance since the ambi shape doesn't look too crazy.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> You look bad. JK, but IMO the chinese Rival Rescue looks pretty bad. The Rival100 doesn't look so bad at first glance since the ambi shape doesn't look too crazy.


That's obvious.

This mouse reminds me of the Sensei Wireless. It looks low in quality -- I said the same thing for the Rival.

Xai/Sensei > Kinzu > Sensei Wireless > Kana > Rival


----------



## aleexkrysel

Well regardless of quality (the original Rival does feel terribly cheap) I am intrigued by the shape of this mouse. It seems to be a bigger ambi mouse, which are really lacking on the market atm. It also seems to have it's apex further back than the Sensei, which is a good thing for me. The Sensei's hump was right in the middle of the mouse and that is a total no go for me. Can't wait to see some more shots and get some measurements.


----------



## Jeemil89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aleexkrysel*
> 
> Well regardless of quality (*the original Rival does feel terribly cheap*) I am intrigued by the shape of this mouse. It seems to be a bigger ambi mouse, which are really lacking on the market atm. It also seems to have it's apex further back than the Sensei, which is a good thing for me. The Sensei's hump was right in the middle of the mouse and that is a total no go for me. Can't wait to see some more shots and get some measurements.


I just bought a new white rival after destroying my old rival 6 months ago, and they definitely fixed some issues the mouse had. The scroll wheel is amazing, the old rattled. The shell gap between the mousebuttons is now wider and sturdier. The glossy finish on the white one is really good. For me the "old" Rival is perfect except the stiff cord.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i'm 99% sure this is pmw. you can kind of make out the 33 and 0 as well


To me, it looks like pmw 33W330, but I don't see how that would make sense


----------



## Lass3

I need this or Mionix Castor NAU!!


----------



## ramraze

The big questiom is when it comes out, I read somewhere that their rep said late 15/early 16. This is very early then. Last Rival was announced somewhere in October, if i'm not mistaken.


----------



## Lass3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> The big questiom is when it comes out, I read somewhere that their rep said late 15/early 16. This is very early then. Last Rival was announced somewhere in October, if i'm not mistaken.


Sigh! Looks I'm gonna get the Castor then..


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lass3*
> 
> Sigh! Looks I'm gonna get the Castor then..


Having the same thoughts. Tried every possible mouse in the last 2 years. Now trying a Savu, but struggling with malfunction due to pad. Doesn't get good speeds if you lift it even a mm on neither qpad uc2, xtrfy lg-g4, nor artisan hayate.

I hope someone corrects me on the Rival 100. Would sure like to try it.


----------



## rifraf

This looks very promising! I hope it has omrons though. These steelseries switches are a no go.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rifraf*
> 
> This looks very promising! I hope it has omrons though. These steelseries switches are a no go.


Doesn't the Sensei have Omrons? Doesn't the Kana v2 have Omrons?


----------



## rifraf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Doesn't the Sensei have Omrons? Doesn't the Kana v2 have Omrons?


Yes. But the latest steelseries mice dont. Both the sensei wireless and the rival have steelseries switches.


----------



## Kitzstyle

The SS 100 and rescuer both look promising for me, mostly rescuer. Maybe they will release Rival with both a ambi and a ergo design as the rescuer seem to be. I'm more for ergo but u can work with both as long as I can palm it. I place my palm on the pad and grip the mouse with fingers. the castor will be released in a couple of days so I guess I will head over to the local FPS gaming store and try em all out.


----------



## Shiotcrock

If it has a lower profile I want this along with a braided cord I seen on a Oriental site not sure if it's Chinese or Japanese.

http://www.pcwaishe.cn/thread-638106-1-1.html


----------



## the1onewolf

What is this 'rescuer' mouse you are referring to?


----------



## Nilizum

It's the one in the pcwaishe link everyone is posting


----------



## mrvirtualboy

The Steelseries Rep on Reddit said the ambi rival was going to have a better sensor than the current rival, so 3320 doesnt really make much sense to me. Also claimed release date was going to be end of the year.


----------



## exitone

The Rescuer just looks like a cheap mouse to me, don't like it.


----------



## Nilizum

Release date being end of the year when some guy just got it to test. Wat.


----------



## Kitzstyle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Release date being end of the year when some guy just got it to test. Wat.


And the rep also said it was 6 button (incl. dpi switch) and not 3 as another poster here stated without any proof.


----------



## Nilizum

Well whoever said it was a 3 button clearly didn't look at the pic.


----------



## Deku

i think hyper from ebattle (csgo team) was using the rival 100 at esl one and dropped a 50bomb on titan.


----------



## emka

yeah, I've seen that too, but it also looked like a cm storm alcor


----------



## Kitzstyle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deku*
> 
> i think hyper from ebattle (csgo team) was using the rival 100 at esl one and dropped a 50bomb on titan.


damn I just missed that match.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kitzstyle*
> 
> damn I just missed that match.


You can still see the stream. Starts at 3h something. It indeed looks as if one of the tall guys from EBettle has a Rival 100. Hard to see exactly.


----------



## Pa12a

Rallen uses the regular Rival as he usually did, Gruby has got the white one, Hyper uses the Alcor, Peet is using the Alcor too because of the shape, the back logo and the way the mouse buttons are separated in an angle from the shell


----------



## Derp

Is this what you're talking about?

http://www.twitch.tv/esl_csgo/v/8602015?t=3h06m41s


----------



## Pa12a

Yeah that's the team they were talking about, but as you can see everybody except Hyper and Peet use the regular Rival, both use the Alcor instead, nothing new

It was pretty obvious from the mouse buttons and the 2 (instead of 1) cpi switches being lit up


----------



## Kitzstyle

Well I'm watching Olofmeisters stream from Fridays, they are talking in Swedish about the SS products. Olof asks Flusha about the new headset and mouse. Seems as if whole fnatic are switching to it and some new headset. BTW olof are playing like a God atm and are tracking heads better than usual. May be the new feets which are way bigger then org rival


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kitzstyle*
> 
> Well I'm watching Olofmeisters stream from Fridays, they are talking in Swedish about the SS products. Olof asks Flusha about the new headset and mouse. Seems as if whole fnatic are switching to it and some new headset. BTW olof are playing like a God atm and are tracking heads better than usual. May be the new feets which are way bigger then org rival


I track better with smaller mouse feet that are circular or close to that.


----------



## ramraze

Hyper uses Alcor and Peet uses Mizar. Alcor's scrollwheel does not light up.


----------



## Kitzstyle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I track better with smaller mouse feet that are circular or close to that.


I actually like the zowie style of feet. But I use a DA Chroma as I have best aim with that. But it feels like corners are scratching the pad when dragging, which annoys me. I'm switching back and forth all the time and can't make up my mind. Still searching for that perfect mouse.


----------



## genericcc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrvirtualboy*
> 
> The Steelseries Rep on Reddit said the ambi rival was going to have a better sensor than the current rival, so 3320 doesnt really make much sense to me. Also claimed release date was going to be end of the year.


Better sensor? MORE DPI!


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrvirtualboy*
> 
> The Steelseries Rep on Reddit said the ambi rival was going to have a better sensor than the current rival, so 3320 doesnt really make much sense to me. Also claimed release date was going to be end of the year.


Didn't he say that the Rival 100 will have a better sensor than the sensei ? Maybe both. 3320 would be decent.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrvirtualboy*
> 
> The Steelseries Rep on Reddit said the ambi rival was going to have a better sensor than the current rival, so 3320 doesnt really make much sense to me. Also claimed release date was going to be end of the year.


Did he? I didn't see that.
Well, I don't really care if it will be a 3310 or a 3366, it's going to be really good either way. But I really expect it weighting 90g or less...


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Did he? I didn't see that.
> Well, I don't really care if it will be a 3310 or a 3366, it's going to be really good either way. But I really expect it weighting 90g or less...


Like I said, that's not what he said. So better sensor than the Sensei can be 3310 as well.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Like I said, that's not what he said. So better sensor than the Sensei can be 3310 as well.


It's probably the 3310 then.


----------



## Atavax

As the 3366 is going to be non exclusive soon, I wonder if Razer or Logitech is going to get an exclusive sensor even better than the 3366.


----------



## qsxcv

i guess there will be an upgrade to logitech's 3366 similar to how the srom and whatever were changed between the am010 of the g100s and g402
inb4 8234705928cpi


----------



## CorruptBE

I'll see what the reviews bring.

If it's better then the average 3310 (or at least Zowie's), it'll most likely become my next main mouse. If not, ZA12 it is (button latency upgrade coming from my homebrew FK2).


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> As the 3366 is going to be non exclusive soon, I wonder if Razer or Logitech is going to get an exclusive sensor even better than the 3366.


Did a reliable source ever confirm this or just a rumor?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Did a reliable source ever confirm this or just a rumor?


Even it's true, I doubt it there would be any mouse. S3988 have been public for a while, yet there's few mouses use it.


----------



## ramraze

Too bad this can take absolutely ages. Pro gamers tweeting pics while the normal folks have to wait like 5-6 months more for a mere release, and another 1-2 months for it to arrive in stock. (Such as is the case with Mionix).
Sadly I think the Steelseries Rep was right. Someone getting his hands on the mouse now has nothing to do with the actual release. But then again, it might be quicker.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Too bad this can take absolutely ages. Pro gamers tweeting pics while the normal folks have to wait like 5-6 months more for a mere release, and another 1-2 months for it to arrive in stock.....


Only to find it has a huge defect cause its made by SS


----------



## TUMME

rubber sides? meeeh :/


----------



## mrvirtualboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Like I said, that's not what he said. So better sensor than the Sensei can be 3310 as well.


Yeah, I misquoted from memory. My mistake.

Looks like it's gonna be a good mouse, though. Looking forward to trying it out.


----------



## ramraze

Let's start a campaign to annoy steelseries and gather signatures that they should release the rival 100 earlier.
We as gamers and loyal steelseries customers demand emotional and mental compensation(releasing the rival 100 now) for depriving us of good ambidextrous optical xai/sensei-shapes mice for many years, which has made us suffer in game because of using inferior shapes, something like that ^^


----------



## the1onewolf

and no more of these crappy switches on the rival


----------



## KmNi

https://twitter.com/jwCSGO/status/628597370897473536

fnatic got some already


----------



## CorruptBE

Someone send them a screwdriver and a pair of spare skates. Sensors needs to be investigated!


----------



## ramraze

Well, given that they are willing to send them the models already could indicate that they are done with the physical aspects of it, meaning they can push sw updates anytime. This could mean that it is coming earlier than expected, or not


----------



## KmNi

Quote:


> PHedemark 2 Punkte vor 3 Tagen
> 
> In 1-2 months


Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/steelseries/comments/3fe96g/steelseries_rival_100/

Quote:


> PHedemark 1 Punkt vor 1 Tag
> 
> It should be coming in a months time or so. But it really depends on what size of mouse you prefer. I for one cannot get used to using a Rival 100 because its simply too small for my hand and grip.


Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/steelseries/comments/3fjt57/rival_or_rival_100/


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KmNi*
> 
> https://twitter.com/jwCSGO/status/628597370897473536
> 
> fnatic got some already


Now JW won't whiff as many AWP shots, damn laser sensors.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KmNi*
> 
> https://twitter.com/jwCSGO/status/628597370897473536
> 
> fnatic got some already


Nice doilies brah...........SS doilies?


----------



## t00t

Could be coming sooner than originally expected:

https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/631465425503584257
Quote:


> Don't mind us, we're just getting a feel for some of your soon-to-be new favorite gear. #Rival


----------



## boogdud

Somebody bust one open, I need to know if they're using those (not so good) SS switches... If they're using omrons, I'm down.


----------



## detto87

I would bet my left nut that they use their SS switches. Remember, it's one of the ticks that appear on the box.

High DPI precision blabla.
Anti-sweat rubber that's totally useful and things.
Fast-action SS switches for extra extra extra quick actuation.

Same old story. Steelseries isn't of course the only one to blame.
I'd be surprised if anything changes regarding the gaming peripherals market.
Sad news to some but reality.


----------



## thuNDa

I actually like the Steelseries-switches.
They feel like more responsive china-omrons.


----------



## Atavax

I just hope it's not another castor, New "small" mouse that is only 6 grams lighter than their full sized mouse.


----------



## shatterboxd3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I would bet my left nut that they use their SS switches. Remember, it's one of the ticks that appear on the box.
> 
> High DPI precision blabla.
> Anti-sweat rubber that's totally useful and things.
> Fast-action SS switches for extra extra extra quick actuation.
> 
> Same old story. Steelseries isn't of course the only one to blame.
> I'd be surprised if anything changes regarding the gaming peripherals market.
> Sad news to some but reality.


It does suck that the majority market dictates stupid things like high dpi and ridiculous buzzwords. The glimmer of hope here is that the Rival 100 is close to the Sensei shape, with a 3310. Steelseries implementation of the 3310 is just fine, and the sensei shape with a good sensor is something people have been wanting for a very long time. Though i dislike the SS switches... I wasn't a fan and put huanos in my Rival from an old ec1 evo. I think this new mouse has potential to be a winner.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I would bet my left nut that they use their SS switches. Remember, it's one of the ticks that appear on the box.
> 
> High DPI precision blabla.
> Anti-sweat rubber that's totally useful and things.
> Fast-action SS switches for extra extra extra quick actuation.
> 
> Same old story. Steelseries isn't of course the only one to blame.
> I'd be surprised if anything changes regarding the gaming peripherals market.
> Sad news to some but reality.


I just want to know the Sensor









If it's a 3310, might as well get a ZA from Zowie, if not, I'm holding out and waiting for reviews.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shatterboxd3*
> 
> It does suck that the majority market dictates stupid things like high dpi and ridiculous buzzwords. The glimmer of hope here is that the Rival 100 is close to the Sensei shape, with a 3310. Steelseries implementation of the 3310 is just fine, and the sensei shape with a good sensor is something people have been wanting for a very long time. Though i dislike the SS switches... I wasn't a fan and put huanos in my Rival from an old ec1 evo. I think this new mouse has potential to be a winner.


What do you expect, its been like this for the past 6-7 years. You can't blame Steelseries since they are just following what Razer is doing since they're the one's that started this trend back in 07-08. I personally think its just going to get worse but we'll have to see. Our only saviors are the niche companies like Zowie, Mionix, and Finalmouse that don't follow the big companies business model.


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> I actually like the Steelseries-switches.
> They feel like more responsive china-omrons.


They feel mushy and too hard to actuate to me. The only good thing about them is that they're quiet, IMO.


----------



## shatterboxd3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> What do you expect, its been like this for the past 6-7 years. You can't blame Steelseries since they are just following what Razer is doing since they're the one's that started this trend back in 07-08. I personally think its just going to get worse but we'll have to see. Our only saviors are the niche companies like Zowie, Mionix, and Finalmouse that don't follow the big companies business model.


I totally agree, and I'd have a ZA11 right now if it was less than 100$ in Canada and I could return it if it wasn't exactly what I want.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boogdud*
> 
> They feel mushy and too hard to actuate to me. The only good thing about them is that they're quiet, IMO.











harder yes, but more responsive too IMHO(unlike the huanos and TTC's, which are harder and less responsive).


----------



## m1hka

I like Steelseries over D2FC.
My personal rating: D2F > Steelseries > D2FC > Zippy > TTC > Huano.


----------



## the1onewolf

https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/631518842745851904

Quote:


> We switched out the rubber siding for plastic, and it's got a pretty nice feel to it.


https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/631465425503584257
Quote:


> Don't mind us, we're just getting a feel for some of your soon-to-be new favorite gear. #Rival


https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/631508969983492096
Quote:


> Well, this beauty should be easier to afford, it's only around $40 ;-)


There's hope!


----------



## CorruptBE

Cheaper usually indicates crap performance :s

Might just be the 3320 that malfunctions


----------



## shatterboxd3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Cheaper usually indicates crap performance :s
> 
> Might just be the 3320 that malfunctions


Didn't they say it would have a better sensor than the sensei? Is the 3320 better in any way?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shatterboxd3*
> 
> Didn't they say it would have a better sensor than the sensei? Is the 3320 better in any way?


Only random acceleration from what I've read from members here. Seems that the 3320 however has a lower malfunction speed, which is an issue for me.


----------



## qsxcv

vs 3310, i'd expect
lower max speed, less variance (but this could depend on specific implementation e.g. illumination quality), less smoothing (? no one knows for sure)


----------



## saltedham

boo on taking off the rubber sides. i prefer mice with them for a better grip. zowie are to slipppery for me.


----------



## the1onewolf

To be fair though the original rival was not definitely not worth the 60 MSRP with it's shoddy build quality


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1onewolf*
> 
> To be fair though the original rival was not definitely not worth the 60 MSRP with it's shoddy build quality


So true

Rival built felt meh with the matte surfance and the mousewheel would tilt...
Quaility control blows excluding the rubber mold


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> So true
> 
> Rival built felt meh with the matte surfance and the mousewheel would tilt...
> Quaility control blows excluding the rubber mold


Also it had that trademark creaky/grindy Steelseries wheel, when you'd try to scroll with any speed at all. Hopefully they've sorted that out, but they've been doing that since the sensei, so I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> vs 3310, i'd expect
> lower max speed, less variance (but this could depend on specific implementation e.g. illumination quality), less smoothing (? no one knows for sure)


Well I don't need 5 m/s, but I have made every mouse skip out there that doesn't reach 4 m/s.


----------



## Jeemil89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> So true
> 
> Rival built felt meh with the matte surfance and the mousewheel would tilt...
> Quaility control blows excluding the rubber mold


Actually they have improved the Rival QC. I had an "old" matte Rival that I accidentally broke and bought a "new" white glossy one. The new one has a really good mouse wheel (no rattling or tilting), better sidegrips and the gap between the mousebuttons in front of the wheel is larger and the shell seems stiffer so the buttons won't touch each other anymore (some people had this issue).


----------



## aerowalk30

Has really no one here had an issue with the 3310 in the Rival itself? I found it to have one of the worst malfunctioning sensors I've ever used. With nearly any high-speed swipe or most 180's regardless of the speed it had me looking up at the sky or the ground.


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jeemil89*
> 
> Actually they have improved the Rival QC. I had an "old" matte Rival that I accidentally broke and bought a "new" white glossy one. The new one has a really good mouse wheel (no rattling or tilting), better sidegrips and the gap between the mousebuttons in front of the wheel is larger and the shell seems stiffer so the buttons won't touch each other anymore (some people had this issue).


While I did like the rival for its shape and all that. The Switches are just bland and disgusting compared to huanos or G303 switches. I think the most annoying thing about the rival was the fact that the right switch always felt crisper than the left switch.


----------



## coolwert

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Has really no one here had an issue with the 3310 in the Rival itself? I found it to have one of the worst malfunctioning sensors I've ever used. With nearly any high-speed swipe or most 180's regardless of the speed it had me looking up at the sky or the ground.


hm never had a problem with the sensor, maybe its your mousepad
if not just RMA it because I never encountered such problems


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Has really no one here had an issue with the 3310 in the Rival itself? I found it to have one of the worst malfunctioning sensors I've ever used. With nearly any high-speed swipe or most 180's regardless of the speed it had me looking up at the sky or the ground.


The problem is colored mousepad. I had the same issue on Goliathus Speed but it's perfectly fine on Taito or QcK Heavy.


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m1hka*
> 
> The problem is colored mousepad. I had the same issue on Goliathus Speed but it's perfectly fine on Taito or QcK Heavy.


I tried it with 3 different Rivals, 3 different mousepads (QCK, GPCGR, Zowie G-RF) and 2 PCs. There's also been countless complaints about it over on ESEA about the issue and its been completely ignored by SS.

I gave up after the 3rd Rival as its clearly an issue on SS's end.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> vs 3310, i'd expect
> lower max speed, less variance (but this could depend on specific implementation e.g. illumination quality), less smoothing (? no one knows for sure)


What makes you think that? Sounds good to me, I just switched back to mid sens so I don't need that high speed any more. However, I'm much more interested in what they're doing with the next Kinzu.


----------



## zeflow

I'm glad they decided not to use the rubber sides, hopefully this gets released soon.


----------



## coolwert

btw talking about malfunctioning
i got this problem now with the ss rival where when i play cs go ingame, the dpi of the mouse suddenly shoots up and i cant control my aim
i also had this problem with the ss kana cs go edition
did someone experience something similar ?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> What makes you think that


3320 is public am010


----------



## zeflow

https://twitter.com/steelseries/status/633687022704721920

Assuming this is it?

Edit: never mind this is the original rival


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 3320 is public am010


Where is your source on that?


----------



## qsxcv

if you google a bit you can find woll3 mention it on some other forums.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67167.msg1591163#msg1591163


----------



## zeflow

SteelSeries:

‏@SteelSeries @dopeysparks Think Kinzu size more than Rival size.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> Where is your source on that?


You are late to the party. This has been mentioned couple months back.


----------



## maddada

https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/633687022704721920

size is going to be similar to kinzu


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maddada*
> 
> https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/633687022704721920
> 
> size is going to be similar to kinzu


My care level is rising.

It's probably closer to Sensei sized though. Kinzu is too small for many people. Just imagine @MaximilianKohler trying to use one


----------



## Deku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> My care level is rising.
> 
> *It's probably closer to Sensei sized though.* Kinzu is too small for many people. Just imagine @MaximilianKohler trying to use one


I really hope it is


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maddada*
> 
> https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/633687022704721920
> 
> size is going to be similar to kinzu


wow. If it really ends up being close to kinzu/kana v2 its 100% buy for me!
Sensei is to big for me personally.

KPM, Kana is around max for me.


----------



## pgabor

Abandon the hypetrain guys, its just a normal rival with a different paintjob

"SteelSeries ‏@SteelSeries 5h5 hours ago
@dopeysparks This is a normal Rival, although we're coming out with a smaller, ambi Rival later this year







"


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> wow. If it really ends up being close to kinzu/kana v2 its 100% buy for me!
> Sensei is to big for me personally.
> 
> KPM, Kana is around max for me.


Same here. Sensei is too wide. Really promising!


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> You are late to the party. This has been mentioned couple months back.


So where is the source?


----------



## zeflow

https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/633723154519752704

Kinzu/Kana style


----------



## detto87

Basically what SS is saying there on Twitter is nothing else than "yep, ambidextrous Rival".


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> SteelSeries:
> 
> ‏@SteelSeries @dopeysparks Think Kinzu size more than Rival size.


All aboard the hypetrain, guys.


----------



## Noismo

Kinzu size has awesome size and shape. They must release two versions of Rival - longer and shorter and don't make love with our brains with product placement. Everybody want SS Kinzu with really good sensor and side buttons and longer version with shape like Sensei for fans of Sensei/Xai. IMHO.

Whatever, new about Rival 100 isn't too promising because they want to put inside this mouse 3320 sensor. LoL...


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Noismo*
> 
> Kinzu size has awesome size and shape. They must release two versions of Rival - longer and shorter and don't make love with our brains with product placement. Everybody want SS Kinzu with really good sensor and side buttons and longer version with shape like Sensei for fans of Sensei/Xai. IMHO.


Perhaps that's where they are going. Looks like they're replacing the Kinzu and Kana with the Rival 100 and perhaps they'll update the Sensei with a new sensor. Maybe they'll call the new Sensei "Rival 200"







Has anyone thought about the name "Rival 100"? Is that just a way of hanging on to the success of the Rival? Are they out of names? I mean it's a completely different shape and probably a different sensor.


----------



## exitone

Steelseries are obviously wanting to rival everything after losing their customerbase with poor mice.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> Steelseries are obviously wanting to rival everything after losing their customerbase with poor mice.


I was thinking the same thing. The Kinzu has a great shape, but the name basically stands for bad click delay and subpar sensors after 3 1/2 versions (counting V2 Pro). I still hope they make a V4 if they make it better.


----------



## rifraf

So its shaped like Kinzu. Thats disappointing but understandable. They dont currently offer any small mice.

_*Calmly waits for the Sensei successor_


----------



## Necroblob

If it's similar to the Kinzu/Kana then I'll like the shape. Interested to see how the new sensor performs.


----------



## bond10

Since it's called a Rival I am expecting a non-rounded butt and a non curved slope for the front which is meh. I believe most people prefer rounded mice so it's easier to curl your fingers on top of it.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Since it's called a Rival I am expecting a non-rounded butt and a non curved slope for the front which is meh. I believe most people prefer rounded mice so it's easier to curl your fingers on top of it.


What do you mean? You can basically see what it looks like here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/lightbox/post/24206105/id/2528937
Looks very much like the Kinzu/Kana/Sensei in shape if you ask me and since they're saying the Rival 100 is more Kinzu-sized than Rival-sized, it seems like it's a fair assumption that it's basically a Kinzu with Rival-ish looks (scroll wheel, coating, LED). Perhaps a bit larger to replace Kinzu and Kana.


----------



## jung1e

Pronax using the new Rival 100? If you look at the side it has that kinzu/sensei curve and cable isnt quite like the Rival if you compare to the Rival olof's holding.



High res link:http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/7038-full/1440099260.4148.jpeg


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Since it's called a Rival I am expecting a non-rounded butt and a non curved slope for the front which is meh. I believe most people prefer rounded mice so it's easier to curl your fingers on top of it.


For me a mouse needs to have the round butt so my palm can fit snugly for any claw or hybrid grip. I think thats why the 3.0 was so comfy for me. Nowadays seems like most mice are too narrow. sorry for doublepost


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jung1e*
> 
> Pronax using the new Rival 100? If you look at the side it has that kinzu/sensei curve and cable isnt quite like the Rival if you compare to the Rival olof's holding.
> 
> 
> 
> High res link:http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/7038-full/1440099260.4148.jpeg


Its a kinzu v3.


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Its a kinzu v3.


Ah ok, my bad. Thought it might be the new rival since i know pronax was using the Rival previously


----------



## RDno1

Watch pronax suddenly becoming better once he starts using the Rival 100 xD


----------



## RDno1

What mouse is zeus using right now? Can you tell? Is that a Rival 100 perhaps?

http://www.twitch.tv/esl_csgo

EDIT: nevermind, probably a vanilla Sensei Raw


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> What mouse is zeus using right now? Can you tell? Is that a Rival 100 perhaps?
> 
> http://www.twitch.tv/esl_csgo
> 
> EDIT: nevermind, probably a vanilla Sensei Raw


yeah rubber sensei raw. he used a navi sensei prior.


----------



## MaterialFiber

This is quite an old screengrab but you guys might be able to make something from it

edit: removed the picture realized I'm not allowed to share this


----------



## Noismo

ANDS 3050? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I love Steelseries. DD


----------



## MaterialFiber

well they did say it would be only 39,99


----------



## Noismo

It doesn't matter, they must make love with themselves for 3050. Cybersports. LoL. )))


----------



## RDno1

That would be the same as Kinzu V3, I doubt that will happen.


----------



## MeHigh

If the Rival 100 won't be so expensive as the regular Rival, A3050 is decent, I really like that sensor in my Xornet. At 1000DPI or less the tracking is awesome IMO. But yea, a 3320 would be nicer.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MeHigh*
> 
> If the Rival 100 won't be so expensive as the regular Rival, A3050 is decent, I really like that sensor in my Xornet. At 1000DPI or less the tracking is awesome IMO. But yea, a 3320 would be nicer.


3310 or riot


----------



## TriviumKM

3050 or 3320? Welp, another mouse on my radar that I pass up. I'm really getting tired of companies equating small mice with low tier smh


----------



## MaterialFiber

3050


----------



## Derp

lol


----------



## MeHigh

Guys, 3050 isn't that bad! Have you ever used a good implementation of that sensor? I mean on paper of course it can't compare to the 3310, 3366 or 3988, but it "feels" nice! I can pwn noobs so much more easily on my 3050 Xornet than on my Rival.

For me, the shape of the mouse is the most important aspect, the switches and the build quality comes in second and the sensor is also very important, but I find ^ those things ^ to be more important for a mouse to be ranked as good from my point of view.

If I will like the 100's shape, build quality, weight, and switches, I'm gonna buy that 3050 mouse happily!

As for the 3320, that's actually a very good sensor. It is the public AM010 from what I read, sensor which I find quite good. For my daily BF4, Dota, HOTS and stuff like this, I don't even need a better sensor.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MeHigh*
> 
> Guys, 3050 isn't that bad! Have you ever used a good implementation of that sensor? I mean on paper of course it can't compare to the 3310, 3366 or 3988, but it "feels" nice! I can pwn noobs so much more easily on my 3050 Xornet than on my Rival.
> 
> For me, the shape of the mouse is the most important aspect, the switches and the build quality comes in second and the sensor is also very important, but I find ^ those things ^ to be more important for a mouse to be ranked as good from my point of view.
> 
> If I will like the 100's shape, build quality, weight, and switches, I'm gonna buy that 3050 mouse happily!
> 
> As for the 3320, that's actually a very good sensor. It is the public AM010 from what I read, sensor which I find quite good. For my daily BF4, Dota, HOTS and stuff like this, I don't even need a better sensor.


I know, but why would they 'downgrade' to a 3050 or a 3320?


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> I know, but why would they 'downgrade' to a 3050 or a 3320?


Somebody mentioned the 3320 likely has lower variance than the 3310. Also lower max speed, but most people probably don't need 5 m/s.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> I know, but why would they 'downgrade' to a 3050 or a 3320?


Why manufacture and sell Golf´s when you own Lamborghini?


----------



## aerowalk30

As long as they don't use a 3310 I'll be happy. I much prefer their implementation of the 3050 in the Kinzu V3 then the 3310 in the Rival.


----------



## MaterialFiber

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> I know, but why would they 'downgrade' to a 3050 or a 3320?


to be able to make it only 39,99


----------



## Maximillion

Wait...what? What's this 3050 talk? SS is really making the Rival100 their "budget" mouse









Why am I even surprised at this point. So this isn't even the "ambi Rival" but the "Rival Jr." that just happens to be a different shape.


----------



## m1hka

How is 3050 better than A9500?


----------



## KmNi

I'm here at the ESL-One Finals atm, and the new Rival Fade has "Rival 300" on the package! So I ask one of the SteelSeries guys and he told me, that there will be a "Rival 200" for sure, too!!!


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Why manufacture and sell Golf´s when you own Lamborghini?


If they were both the same price, it would be useless
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RPJansen*
> 
> to be able to make it only 39,99


That's not an excuse


----------



## MeHigh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m1hka*
> 
> 
> How is 3050 better than A9500?


Anything would be better than 9500. Even an office mouse sensor. Lol


----------



## thuNDa

lol, they don't even have the imagination anymore to name their new mice?
rival 100 has at least nothing to do with orignal rival, and if they really use a A3050 this is true even more.

A3050 is very limited, and higher than 500DPI already jitters(at least on my xornet, dunno how they could get out better results from this sensor).


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MeHigh*
> 
> Anything would be better than 9500. Even an office mouse sensor. Lol


I disagree.


----------



## aLv1080

But I'm still not sure if they'll use the 3050 in this mouse, most likely not.
It will be either the 3310 or the 3320 and they'll sell it for a low price (30$?)


----------



## zeflow

Did I miss something, why is everyone saying 3050..


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Did I miss something, why is everyone saying 3050..


Because RPJansen posted a screenshot of a page saying that it will have the 3050.
He edited his post btw. Just go back two or three pages.


----------



## turnschuh

But why the heck dont they just bring out an optical sensei/xai already. What can be soo good on their new "rival" mice (shape-wise) that they decide to completely ignore that they had or have one of the best shaped mice and instead trying to reinvent the wheel.

On top of that (probably?) with a low-tier sensor?...


----------



## Ino.

A3050 has way too low pcs for my needs, I really hope they don't do that :/


----------



## bond10

I doubt it's an A3050...then this is basically just a kinzu v3 which was a failure...


----------



## Noismo

Another "cheap cybersports" product placement by Steelseries. I don't understand why they can't made something better for people with small/md sized hands?

OK, 3310 isn't enough cheap for $40 mouse, but how about 3390? I have one simple answer - greed.

Goddamnseries.


----------



## MeHigh

I'm still hoping that it's gonna be the 3320. Kinzu shape, lightweight (i hope), better switches, 3320 and I'm sold.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MeHigh*
> 
> I'm still hoping that it's gonna be the 3320. Kinzu shape, lightweight (i hope), better switches, 3320 and I'm sold.


I wouldn't get my hopes up for lightweight, at least not compared to the Kinzu. The Rival 100 has side buttons and an LED apparently. But yeah, 3320 would be nice I guess. Imho the most important thing about the switches is that they fix the click delay that Kinzus have.

The LOD on the 3050 is also not that good on the Kinzu V3 and I don't know if they can fix that. Max speed is higher than 3.5 m/s if I remember my tests correctly though, so that's decent.


----------



## MeHigh

Why do people want LED's for looks? I mean 1 LED is fine I guess, so you know what DPI step/profile you are on, but RGB lighting? Come on. Instead of the light they could have gone for a better sensor IMO, as the Rival 100 is a budget-ish mouse. Even the G502, which is pretty damn expensive, has only 1, non-RGB LED.


----------



## Noismo

Because it's product for kids who want to be like pro. "Hey mom, I want new mouse! Look, it's cheap!"

OK, put TTC switches, cheap scroll, cheap plastic everywhere, but sensor must be good without prediction, accel, with low LOD e t.c.


----------



## RDno1

You can't unleak pictures on the internet, just found it on ESR







Seems like they might've done something to the sensor compared to the V3. Perhaps to fix LOD?


----------



## MeHigh

I can't agree less.

Do you really think a sensor with higher numbers on paper is better than a mouse with a great build quality, Omron switches, ALPS scroll and good quality plastic / rubberised surface?
Oh my god.
Sure, a good sensor is important, but better build quality, nice ergonomic shape (not the case here, but whatever), good switches, nice material used are more important IMO. That's why I will never buy the FinalMouse, a 15$ chinese mouse which feels like crap with a good sensor inside. No, thanks.









@RDno1 Link please?







- nervermind, i found it!


----------



## RDno1

Can someone explain to me why they would release a mouse with 3320 and Omrons for the Chinese market and a 3050 with SteelSeries switches for the Western market?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

If it has a a3050, it's not even worth paying $40 for.


----------



## toopz

Bring back Kim Rom


----------



## Nilizum

Yes, if they put an A3050 in this mouse, it's gonna be rather disappointing.


----------



## Noismo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MeHigh*
> 
> I can't agree less.
> 
> Do you really think a sensor with higher numbers on paper is better than a mouse with a great build quality, Omron switches, ALPS scroll and good quality plastic / rubberised surface?
> Oh my god.
> Sure, a good sensor is important, but better build quality, nice ergonomic shape (not the case here, but whatever), good switches, nice material used are more important IMO. That's why I will never buy the FinalMouse, a 15$ chinese mouse which feels like crap with a good sensor inside. No, thanks.


Steelseries Kana V1 and Kinzu has TTC switches and pretty low quality materials like $10 rebranded office mouses. Absolutely nothing to cost $40.


----------



## suneatshours86




----------



## AuraDesruu

So is the 3050 better than the 3310??
I'm so confused


----------



## zeflow

3050


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

http://watchmono.com/blog-entry-5638.html


----------



## zeflow

So it's a kinzu v3 with side buttons?


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> http://watchmono.com/blog-entry-5638.html


I don't even think it's fair to even compare that chinese rival to the rival 100 anymore. The thumb button and cover are way different from each other.


----------



## boogdud

But more importantly now that the "Rival 100" has kind of had the bottom fall out of it, I wonder where I can get my hands on one of those "Rival Rescuer" mice? It looks awesome to me.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> So is the 3050 better than the 3310??
> I'm so confused


Depends on what you are looking for.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Depends on what you are looking for.


In what area is the 3050 better than the 3310?


----------



## t00t

What a waste of a decent looking shape. 3050 isn't going to cut it for me.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> In what area is the 3050 better than the 3310?


From a consumer Standpoint, Variance.

From an Industry Standpoint the cheap price and low power consumption.

It would actually be interesting to know how many people who are talking about 3050 have ever tested one, im not a personal Fan of it, but i probably would prefer it over 3310 if you would only give me those two options, but then again im not a fan of 3310 either.


----------



## Noismo

Quote:


> low power consumption


Can't stop my laugh. You make my day. Power consumption by mouse. Ahahahah.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Noismo*
> 
> Can't stop my laugh. You make my day. Power consumption by mouse. Ahahahah.


Well, believe it or not, but there are wireless mice which are marketed towards gamers, and then there is stuff like the recon, which cant keep stable polling with all the lights turned on.


----------



## Maximillion

In this case, why is this mouse any more hyped than the 250M


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> In this case, why is this mouse any more hyped than the 250M


Because Steelseries?


----------



## Nivity

Because there are still almost no smaller mice with sidebuttons?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> From a consumer Standpoint, Variance.
> 
> From an Industry Standpoint the cheap price and low power consumption.
> 
> It would actually be interesting to know how many people who are talking about 3050 have ever tested one, im not a personal Fan of it, but i probably would prefer it over 3310 if you would only give me those two options, but then again im not a fan of 3310 either.


I'm not a fan of any specific sensor (excluding perhaps 3366), but I have minimum requirements alot of these budgets sensors don't meet.

Might as well order a ZA12 now from Zowie, what a disappointment this is.


----------



## qsxcv

why would they choose 3050 over 3320?


----------



## CorruptBE

idk, perhaps manufacturing costs?


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> In what area is the 3050 better than the 3310?


Price.

Woops, didn't reload the page before commenting. Haha


----------



## qsxcv

i'd imagine they're a similar price


----------



## discoprince

its an affordable ambi mouse with side buttons for rts/moba players.
i used the xornet for a long time which also has the 3050, which was fine then not sure about now.

hopefully they come out with another model like "rival 200" with a better sensor?


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> its an affordable ambi mouse with side buttons for rts/moba players.
> i used the xornet for a long time which also has the 3050, which was fine then not sure about now.
> 
> hopefully they come out with another model like "rival 200" with a better sensor?


That's a lot of money to put in if they are going to make a model with a better sensor
Hell they refuse to put a 3310 in a sensei when everyone is begging for one.


----------



## zeflow

They will most likely put a 3310 in the rival 200 which will be sensei shaped.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> It would actually be interesting to know how many people who are talking about 3050 have ever tested one, im not a personal Fan of it, but i probably would prefer it over 3310 if you would only give me those two options, but then again im not a fan of 3310 either.


I've actually used an A3050 and it is crap, unless one plans to move it at slow speeds 100% of the time. I also do not know where you are getting this baseless claim about 3310 having more variance than A3090 or A3050, because from actual REALITY based results, I have found the contrary with the A3090. Bring an A3050 to an fps, and the whole 'variance' argument is pretty much moot when it malfunctions at such a low speed. Come on now, lets be realistic.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> the whole 'variance' argument is pretty much moot when it malfunctions at such a low speed. Come on now, lets be realistic.


Which 3050 mice have you used and at what speed did they fail at?


----------



## detto87

Wow. What a huge disappointment.

Wait. I expected nothing more from Steelseries.
Same procedure as every year folks.


----------



## ronal

I'm not surprised one bit, its Steelseries after all. Cheap-ass company!!!!!


----------



## Noismo

Cheap as hell. Turning point in my relations with Steelseries was two mouses - Roccat Savu and SS Kana V1, same price, but tons of differences in terms of build quality and materials. Good teflon vs. plastic, Omron vs. TTC, at least Savu has Avago 3090. But only one thing is important - shape must be right and sensor must work well, but Steelseries is so greedy, they want to get 400% on sales or something. Zowie EC series with custom lense on 3090 was something diffrerent and works well, and now everybody using 3310 and variations, but Steelseries is still with their outdated low quaility optical sensors.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I've actually used an A3050 and it is crap, unless one plans to move it at slow speeds 100% of the time. I also do not know where you are getting this baseless claim about 3310 having more variance than A3090 or A3050, because from actual REALITY based results, I have found the contrary with the A3090. Bring an A3050 to an fps, and the whole 'variance' argument is pretty much moot when it malfunctions at such a low speed. Come on now, lets be realistic.


Here are some tests of the *Kinzu V3* on my G640. Ugly graph, but the malfunction speed isn't low. Seems to be a bit jittery on the 500 dpi setting even.



(500 hz)


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> From a consumer Standpoint, Variance.


Are we talking base implementation? Like before qc,tolerances,illumination etc etc come into play?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I've actually used an A3050 and it is crap, unless one plans to move it at slow speeds 100% of the time. I also do not know where you are getting this baseless claim about 3310 having more variance than A3090 or A3050, because from actual REALITY based results, I have found the contrary with the A3090. Bring an A3050 to an fps, and the whole 'variance' argument is pretty much moot when it malfunctions at such a low speed. Come on now, lets be realistic.


I don't have an answer to all of your questions, but 3310 and 3398 clearly have more variance than the earlier 3090. Look at any so called accel tests. Or even compare to 3366 you can see the variance easily. On older 3090, 3050, am010, not so visible. Depends a lot on implementations, though.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Which 3050 mice have you used and at what speed did they fail at?


Most of the standard A3050 mice i've used, such as the Newmen GX1-F/R (The F series doesn't actually use a 3305DK) malfunction at 1.5 m/s, but under 1.5 m/s little to no variance.

The only A3050 that I have that good do 3 m/s was an iRocks, but that sensor had prediction and some variance under 3 m/s anyways.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I don't have an answer to all of your questions, but 3310 and 3398 clearly have more variance than the earlier 3090. Look at any so called accel tests. Or even compare to 3366 you can see the variance easily. On older 3090, 3050, am010, not so visible. Depends a lot on implementations, though.


You're right about implementation dependent, however from my current A3090 mice from Newmen, all I can say is that compared to FM2015 or EC2-A 3310, there is less variance.

I do the lines test like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xRsQZvrvPo

3310 mice always land on the lines after a second iteration, from B to A after A to B.
A3090 mice (tested Newmen) land on the lines after first iteration A to B, but not B to A. Haven't had the luxury of testing other standard A3090s, but this is my current observations and tests.

If the variance of the 3310 is clearly higher, then I am clearly blind.

---

In regards to A3050 rated at 60 IPS for the Rival100, that is such a bad figure, as people that don't even play low sensitivities will hit that regularly.


----------



## Noismo

All differences between sensors on one platform like 3090 or 3310 it's only about firmware, isn't it?

Early or latter version 3090, but it has better tracking speed and accuracy than any mouse with old Pixart sensor.


----------



## Nilizum

it could be. that's why the guy above me said implementation takes a factor. but atm from what I have personally seen with my limited arsenal of A3090s and 3310s, I cannot agree that 3310 has more variance than the former.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> it could be. that's why the guy above me said implementation takes a factor. but atm from what I have personally seen with my limited arsenal of A3090s and 3310s, I cannot agree that 3310 has more variance than the former.


Well, it makes sense TBH if you look at the background/architecture of 3310 and 3398. If anything, it is only logical that they will have rather more than less, when compared to older sensors. However, I'm not so knowledgeable that I could argue with specifics and in-depth knowledge like Skylit.
To me, IN-GAME, having a few % of SRV does not distract from succeeding muscle memory shots, since I don't do pixel-perfect sharp 180-270 degree turns above 3 m/s (I mean like one movement muscle memory shots). I just end up being really imprecise anyway, or having to readjust with a second movement.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Noismo*
> 
> All differences between sensors on one platform like 3090 or 3310 it's only about firmware, isn't it?


On one platform? 3090 and 3310 have different ancestors, as an quick overview:

A9500--->A9800--->S3988

--->PMW3310

lots of A30xx´s(except 3050)--->A3090--->EOL

A5050--->A3050/55--->already EOL or soon

AM010--->PMW3320


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> In regards to A3050 rated at 60 IPS for the Rival100, that is such a bad figure, as people that don't even play low sensitivities will hit that regularly.


The Kinzu V3 I have is also rated at 60 IPS on the box, but as you can see from my last post, it does way more than that.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

[/quote]
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> It would actually be interesting to know how many people who are talking about 3050 have ever tested one,


Inspired me to pick up a roccat/laview lua today while shopping. It's got a "PRO R2 AIM SENSOR"(a3050).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> On one platform? 3090 and 3310 have different ancestors, as an quick overview:
> 
> A9500--->A9800--->S3988
> --->PMW3310
> 
> lots of A30xx´s(except 3050)--->A3090--->EOL
> 
> A5050--->A3050/55--->already EOL or soon
> 
> AM010--->PMW3320


Isn't A2020, A3090's great great grandpa?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Here are some tests of the *Kinzu V3* on my G640. Ugly graph, but the malfunction speed isn't low. Seems to be a bit jittery on the 500 dpi setting even.
> 
> 
> 
> (500 hz)


That looks very different from this 3050 mouse :



It will malfunction at around 3.2 - 3.4 m/s. Maybe it has a ton of smoothing or something.

ps: please use the pencil when showing paint tests!


----------



## qsxcv

well thats a 500hz plot so not a fair comparison, but still that for sure has mcu smoothing. 3050 is 6666fps max, so for 500hz one would expect ~8.3% fluctuations but that graph is showing consistently less


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> They will most likely put a 3310 in the rival 200 which will be sensei shaped.


From a marketing standpoint
I dont think they will because it seems like a waste of money


----------



## aerowalk30

Just throwing this in there, although I'm no expert. I play on 97.3/360cm with the Kinzu V3 and have yet to make it malfunction and I'm definitely swiping up to atleast 5m/s. One of the few mice I've tried that can handle high m/s. However I can't speak for Perfect Control Speed and when it hits that. I have also noticed fluctuations from the 500hz setting it will jump up to 1000hz randomly.

Edit: One of the things I'm not looking forward to is having to take the Rival100 apart and switch out the SS switches they'll surely be using with Omrons.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Just throwing this in there, although I'm no expert. I play on 97.3/360cm with the Kinzu V3 and have yet to make it malfunction and I'm definitely swiping up to atleast 5m/s. One of the few mice I've tried that can handle high m/s. However I can't speak for Perfect Control Speed and when it hits that. I have also noticed fluctuations from the 500hz setting it will jump up to 1000hz randomly.
> 
> Edit: One of the things I'm not looking forward to is having to take the Rival100 apart and switch out the SS switches they'll surely be using with Omrons.


I'm not so sure it can go up to 5m/s, but I also used to play CS:GO on 0.87 and the 500 dpi setting (which is actually around 473 dpi on mine) on it, so that's 101.0027 cm/360°. It never malfunctioned iirc. The Zowie FK 3090 malfunctions way easier.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

The lua on 500dpi can hit 3.5-4m/s easily. Caps at 3m/s at 1000, then goes downhill from there.

edit: Man it does like that 500dpi step for sure.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Just throwing this in there, although I'm no expert. I play on 97.3/360cm with the Kinzu V3 and have yet to make it malfunction and I'm definitely swiping up to atleast 5m/s. One of the few mice I've tried that can handle high m/s. However I can't speak for Perfect Control Speed and when it hits that. I have also noticed fluctuations from the 500hz setting it will jump up to 1000hz randomly.
> 
> Edit: One of the things I'm not looking forward to is having to take the Rival100 apart and switch out the SS switches they'll surely be using with Omrons.


Here's to hoping.

It doesn't have to be perfect control upto 4 m/s for me, but it should at least not malfunction at that speed imo. During tense situations half my 180° turns are hovering around 4 m/s. Regular aiming is usually below that.


----------



## Nilizum

Gotta wait and see. If SS actually does offer at least 3 m/s and without a bunch of instability at near peak sensitivity, then it might be worth getting.


----------



## johnsamuels

Worst sensor decision ever.

I think SS actually hate us. This was the closest we've come so far to a mouse with a good sensor from Steelseries that would actually be usable for fingertip and claw grip users. Then they go and put a very old entry level optical sensor in it, a worse sensor than the Kana had.

Seems we are not alone in our annoyance at this sensor choice:

https://www.reddit.com/r/steelseries/comments/3ixh80/please_tell_me_this_is_a_joke_re_rival_100/


----------



## frewp

Haven't been checking out this thread, the 3050 is confirmed? source?
Much more people will be checking out Zowie if they want an Ambi then... what a shame if true.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frewp*
> 
> Haven't been checking out this thread, the 3050 is confirmed? source?
> Much more people will be checking out Zowie if they want an Ambi then... what a shame if true.


Just check the link in the post before yours and the response of the moderator. Sounds like a confirmation to me.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Just check the link in the post before yours and the response of the moderator. Sounds like a confirmation to me.


Yeah, it is confirmed. Also, I have a feeling that the mice they are going to announce which supposedly have better sensors are going to be bigger in size... Where's a Kinzu-shaped side-buttoned mouse with a proper sensor? Oh well, if this is close to Kinzu-feeling, I'll just frankenmouse it.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Yeah, it is confirmed. Also, I have a feeling that the mice they are going to announce which supposedly have better sensors are going to be bigger in size... Where's a Kinzu-shaped side-buttoned mouse with a proper sensor? Oh well, if this is close to Kinzu-feeling, I'll just frankenmouse it.


Yeah, seems like the only way to get a Kinzu-shaped mouse with a great sensor is to frankenmouse it. Or wait until 2020 or something. I'm glad I have my frankenmouse.


----------



## a_ak57

Maybe they're gonna pull a logitech and release a version with a better sensor (and RGB lighting or whatever else to justify a higher price) a few months later. >_>


----------



## Pa12a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Yeah, seems like the only way to get a Kinzu-shaped mouse with a great sensor is to frankenmouse it. Or wait until 2020 or something. I'm glad I have my frankenmouse.


I always wanted to have a frankenmouse ever since I've seen the Kinzuadder.

h8m3 from QL has a G100s with G303 internals, if I'd only have the balls to actually do stuff like that.


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pa12a*
> 
> h8m3 from QL has a G100s with G303 internals, if I'd only have the balls to actually do stuff like that.


I made one of those too (a few pics), it's not the most difficult mod in the world because the main buttons line up quite nicely. There's no soldering required, but I did use a rotary tool to extend the sensor hole in the bottom shell, remove some plastic from the base/sides to allow the board to fit, and dig into the bottom shell a bit to get the sensor as close to the pad as possible (due to the low default LOD).

The hardest part is making the middle click work, as the button is in a slightly different location. I glued an offcut from the bottom shell and part of the scroll wheel stem from a deathadder to the scroll wheel assembly so it would reach the button. Someone else on ESR has made a version with a working DPI button too, but I didn't bother because I never used it.


----------



## speedyeggtart

Okay I am confused... Is Avago 3050 and PixArt 3350 the same thing? Is the 3090 an Avago Sensor.

I have the original Rival (purchased last year) and someone mentions it uses a 3310 (is that Avago or PixaArt)

What is 3366 (Avago or PixaArt, or???)

not familiar with mouse sensor model numbers - help?









Also which is better, newest, or best?


----------



## Pirx

avago licensed their sensors to pixart, so it's the same thing:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1414314/avago-pixart-sensor-confusion

3050, 3090, 3310 are sensors made by them, in order of performance:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1446384/3090-vs-3310

3366 is said to be the best sensor on the market today, but atm exclusive to logitech (used in g303). not that it will make you hit things you miss with a 3310 mouse...









mouse sensor list here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list

or

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZzbKDmFOqsP_ut2RdctD01OEbZzbXol6HLwqVkSmZcg/edit?pli=1#gid=0


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> I made one of those too (a few pics), it's not the most difficult mod in the world because the main buttons line up quite nicely. There's no soldering required, but I did use a rotary tool to extend the sensor hole in the bottom shell, remove some plastic from the base/sides to allow the board to fit, and dig into the bottom shell a bit to get the sensor as close to the pad as possible (due to the low default LOD).
> 
> The hardest part is making the middle click work, as the button is in a slightly different location. I glued an offcut from the bottom shell and part of the scroll wheel stem from a deathadder to the scroll wheel assembly so it would reach the button. Someone else on ESR has made a version with a working DPI button too, but I didn't bother because I never used it.


Was it worth it? I've heard as long as you don't hit max speed on the G100s, there isn't much of a difference.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Was it worth it? I've heard as long as you don't hit max speed on the G100s, there isn't much of a difference.


With g302 not so much, but with g303 imo you can feel the diff. 3366 tracks so darn well.


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Was it worth it? I've heard as long as you don't hit max speed on the G100s, there isn't much of a difference.


A side effect of the mod is that the sensor position is further forward, which I really like. The liftoff distance is much lower, and it is capable of 1000Hz. I 'feel' like the tracking is a lot better than the am010 below the 2.8m/s threshold but don't have anything objectively useful to contribute regarding that.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pirx*
> 
> 3366 is said to be the best sensor on the market today, but atm exclusive to logitech (used in g303). *not that it will make you hit things you miss with a 3310 mouse*...


Actually it will. I notice myself tracking moving targets better in my own shadowplay recordings when I was using the G303. But that was during more "stationary" situations. Once movement, etc gets thrown in the mix, having a "proper" shape for your hand is more important.

But I think I said this before:

"Do I play better with the G303 as compared to my FK2? Nope. Would I play better with a FK2 shape that had the 3366? Hell Yes."

Not that it'll instantly turn me into a god, but the difference is there.


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Actually it will. I notice myself tracking moving targets better in my own shadowplay recordings when I was using the G303. But that was during more "stationary" situations. Once movement, etc gets thrown in the mix, having a "proper" shape for your hand is more important.
> 
> But I think I said this before:
> 
> "Do I play better with the G303 as compared to my FK2? Nope. Would I play better with a FK2 shape that had the 3366? Hell Yes."
> 
> Not that it'll instantly turn me into a god, but the difference is there.


Absolutely true. All other things being equal, moving from a good sensor to a better sensor will mean you'll hit more. Otherwise why would we all be interested in the sensor so much?

When my Kana died and I tried out the DA with the ADNS-S3988, I immediately started hitting shots I would miss with the Kana. This was despite the shape of the DA being very very bad for a fingertip grip. It is reasonable to think that the increase in accuracy would have been much greater if I was switching from a kana with 3090 to a kana with a well implemented 3310 or 3366.


----------



## trhead

Nah its all in your head bro.


----------



## Luxer

Every small mouse SS has put out has been complete and utter garbage. This should be no surprise. I have no idea why anyone would buy their overpriced products when there are so many different options now.

As someone with small hands I can tell you I have RMA'd maybe 5 various versions of the Kinzu over the years. I will never buy their products ever again.


----------



## gujukal

I think a lot of people here exaggerating the importance of sensors. Some of the best CSGO players use mice like Sensei Raw and Kinzu V2 which have garbage sensors according to a lot of people.


----------



## CorruptBE

Well, wouldn't they also play better with their shape of choice and a 3366?

Though a lot of people indeed over exaggerate by using terms like "garbage".


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luxer*
> 
> Every small mouse SS has put out has been complete and utter garbage. This should be no surprise. I have no idea why anyone would buy their overpriced products when there are so many different options now.
> 
> As someone with small hands I can tell you I have RMA'd maybe 5 various versions of the Kinzu over the years. I will never buy their products ever again.


Weird, I been after a mouse like the G3 refresh ever since it was released.
Still there are almost no options.

G303: worst shape ever made in a mouse personally
Zowie everything: No go, huanos are not for me and never will be
Roccat KPM: Using it now, but would prefer a ambidextrous mouse.

There are no shorter mice with decent weight and sidebuttons on left side.


----------



## sndblstr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Weird, I been after a mouse like the G3 refresh ever since it was released.
> Still there are almost no options.
> 
> G303: worst shape ever made in a mouse personally
> Zowie everything: No go, huanos are not for me and never will be
> Roccat KPM: Using it now, but would prefer a ambidextrous mouse.
> 
> There are no shorter mice with decent weight and sidebuttons on left side.


How about EVGA Torq x5 - good sensor, decent weight - 85g, ambidextrous, 117.86mm - long?


----------



## CorruptBE

Or a Zowie and a soldering iron.

(obvious hint is obvious)


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gujukal*
> 
> I think a lot of people here exaggerating the importance of sensors. Some of the best CSGO players use mice like Sensei Raw and Kinzu V2 which have garbage sensors according to a lot of people.


Might not matter so much in those games I guess, matters A LOT in Quakelive and Reflex.


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnsamuels*
> 
> Might not matter so much in those games I guess, matters A LOT in Quakelive and Reflex.


Rapha has always used a wmo..


----------



## qsxcv

http://www.esreality.com/post/2399483/what-mice-are-the-quake-pros-using/#pid2399530

yup it's pretty insane how popular mlt04 is in that list


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gujukal*
> 
> I think a lot of people here exaggerating the importance of sensors. Some of the best CSGO players use mice like Sensei Raw and Kinzu V2 which have garbage sensors according to a lot of people.


This is usually because the teams are sponsored and forced to use those mice. fnatic and navi players have to use steelseries mice. cloud9 and TSM have to use logitech mice. NiP used to be forced with steelseries.

Also, most of the pro CS:GO players are really young and probably weren't gaming when MLT04 mice were out so they don't own a WMO or an IE 3.0....plus they can't install the regfix for 500 hz at most LANs and ESEA anyway.


----------



## speedyeggtart

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> This is usually because the teams are sponsored and forced to use those mice. fnatic and navi players have to use steelseries mice. cloud9 and TSM have to use logitech mice. NiP used to be forced with steelseries.
> 
> Also, most of the pro CS:GO players are really young and probably weren't gaming when MLT04 mice were out so they don't own a WMO or an IE 3.0....plus they can't install the regfix for 500 hz at most LANs and ESEA anyway.


Yep - I heard that too and its true. Pro players when at home use their MS IE 3.0 and G5


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *speedyeggtart*
> 
> Yep - I heard that too and its true. Pro players when at home use their MS IE 3.0 and G5


They should do like Rapha







just slap a sticker on their WMO. Might actually help with his grip


----------



## Gonzalez07

would not recommend. sticker feels terrible on palm. sadly i have tried this


----------



## Jeemil89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *speedyeggtart*
> 
> Yep - I heard that too and its true. Pro players when at home use their MS IE 3.0 and G5


Every CS:GO Pro streamer uses the same mouse as they do at LAN's. A lot of teams sponsored by Logitech has players using the G100s instead of the G303. They rather have mouse that's comfortable than having a slightly better sensor. Combination of both would be best, but it's hard to please everyone.


----------



## johnsamuels

G100 with 303 internals would be a kickarse mouse. Holy **** why do they never put all the good bits together? SS, Zowie, Logitech


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jeemil89*
> 
> Every CS:GO Pro streamer uses the same mouse as they do at LAN's. A lot of teams sponsored by Logitech has players using the G100s instead of the G303. They rather have mouse that's comfortable than having a slightly better sensor. Combination of both would be best, but it's hard to please everyone.


I recon if you would do a test with 2 equal sensors in the G100 and G303 shape on a large batch of players and then send them a poll, most would go with the G100s shape.

It's not that the G303 is THAT bad in terms of shape, but it has a shape that "forces" you to hold it in a particular way, whereas the G100s is simple, yet in its simplicity can be held in many more different angles with your hand.


----------



## softskiller

To get a feeling for the new price point of the Rival 100 (from webhallen com shop)

SteelSeries Rival Optical Mouse 649 kr

Steelseries Rival 100 NY! 399 kr

So it costs like 40% less.

I am sure teams like Fnatic will stick with the Rival 300.

Also listed there:

SteelSeries Rival 300 CS:GO Fade Edition NY! 749 kr


----------



## zeflow

I wish they would at least do a "pro" version with a 3310 or 20 for more $...


----------



## NicoNicoNii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> I wish they would at least do a "pro" version with a 3310 or 20 for more $...


This is SteelSeries we're talking about....


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> I wish they would at least do a "pro" version with a 3310 or 20 for more $...


Yeah... I wish Dad would come back, and Mom would stop drinking..


----------



## CorruptBE

Dad's still here and I'm the one drinking.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Dad's still here and I'm the one drinking.


Looking at the specs of this mouse it's not hard to see why.


----------



## zzuper

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Yeah, it is confirmed. Also, I have a feeling that the mice they are going to announce which supposedly have better sensors are going to be bigger in size... Where's a Kinzu-shaped side-buttoned mouse with a proper sensor? Oh well, if this is close to Kinzu-feeling, I'll just frankenmouse it.


According to this link, it looks like a version of the 3090 sensor.
Quote:


> The Rival 100 Optical Gaming Mouse brings unmatched performance, at an entry level price.
> 
> Armed with a best in class sensor and six programmable buttons, the Rival 100 is complete with customizable CPI up to 4000, 30 million click switches, and 16.8 million color RGB illumination. Whether this is your first gaming mouse, or you are already topping the leader boards, this mouse has everything that a gamer needs.


Price is 400sek, 50usd, 40eur.

Could work, but too little too late.. They gotta compete with g303 and 2015 diamondback now. I wonder what the root cause is for a business to be so unaware of how their products "live".. Almost feels intentional sometimes.. -_______-


----------



## zeflow




----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zzuper*
> 
> According to this link, it looks like a version of the 3090 sensor.


Is this a 3090?

http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/moba-gaming-mouse-g302


----------



## eysen

http://www.maxfps.no/mus/steelseries/rival-100-optical-mouse


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Is this a 3090?
> 
> http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/moba-gaming-mouse-g302


I see what you did there


----------



## Luxer

Is there any place you can buy the Rival Rescuer or Fuhlen CO300 that ships to the US? I couldn't find any, not even ebay.


----------



## RDno1

Here's a graph of the Kinzu V3 on a QcK+ (posting because presumably the same sensor)


----------



## Shiotcrock

I like Steelseries Mice my only problem is lack of buttons..........I have a Rival for General use then use a Steelseries Raw for First Person Shooter gaming. I was using a Logitech G500 for everything but found my K/D ratio went way up using the Steelseries Raw mouse. Rival not so much just doesn't have the same glide and shape.

I even switched out the Mouse Feet with Hotlines feet


----------



## -=oopeteroo=-

is this the same as the rival but smaller ? is it ergonomic for the righ hand ?


----------



## Aventadoor

Bro, do u even look?

Its a smaller. Its Ambidextrous, a kinzu v3 sizeish with added buttons, budget mouse,


----------



## Chromatrope

The shape reminds me a lot of my Kone Pure Military. In fact, holding it up to my monitor only made it look more eerily similar. Only the tilt really looks different. So, we just have a pretty decent mid-entry level mouse for small hands, good, we needed one of those.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chromatrope*
> 
> The shape reminds me a lot of my Kone Pure Military. In fact, holding it up to my monitor only made it look more eerily similar. Only the tilt really looks different. So, we just have a pretty decent mid-entry level mouse for small hands, good, we needed one of those.


Except the fact that Rival 100 is ambidextrous and KPM is not








Would not say they are similar really.


----------



## ramraze

They're not similar at all. Maybe only in the length department.


----------



## Chromatrope

Whoops, manged to look at this instead of the actual Rival 100:

http://watchmono.com/blog-entry-5534.html


----------



## KmNi

You can find most of the information about the Rival 100 under http://reseller.steelseries.com/product/11691 btw.


----------



## treav0r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KmNi*
> 
> You can find most of the information about the Rival 100 under http://reseller.steelseries.com/product/11691 btw.


DCPI: 4000
cpi: 2000
G (acceleration): 20
Inches per Second: 140
Frames per Second: 6700

so it seems like it is an interpolated a3050?
oh god no pls


----------



## Sencha

What you were expecting SS to release something good?


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KmNi*
> 
> You can find most of the information about the Rival 100 under http://reseller.steelseries.com/product/11691 btw.


Product width is 76.05 mm....This is going to be an extremely wide version of the kinzu? Widest mouse ever...


----------



## NicoNicoNii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Product width is 76.05 mm....This is going to be an extremely wide version of the kinzu? Widest mouse ever...


that has to be a mistake, I'm guessing it's meant to be 67.05 mm.


----------



## Nilizum

3.5 m/s is not bad. not bad at all.


----------



## michael-ocn

too big for me, http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5945/steelseries-rival-optical-gaming-mouse-review/index2.html


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *michael-ocn*
> 
> too big for me, http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5945/steelseries-rival-optical-gaming-mouse-review/index2.html


You do know you are linking a post from Dec 17, 2013, that is about the Rival.
This is Rival 100, a new mouse that did not exist in 2013.


----------



## michael-ocn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> You do know you are linking a post from Dec 17, 2013, that is about the Rival.
> This is Rival 100, a new mouse that did not exist in 2013.


Oops,I did not realize that.


----------



## suneatshours86

... it's a shame. It would be the perfect shape (XAI)


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *suneatshours86*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... it's a shame. It would be the perfect shape (XAI)


If you go to the SteelSeries reseller website you will be able to see pictures of the mouse from various angles, you would just after to download the images.


----------



## Ultramar

So when will this be available?


----------



## Klopfer

Shape looks good for me
if it will be the PMW3320 ( Public AM010 ? ) , it will be OK/Fine too


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> Shape looks good for me
> if it will be the PMW3320 ( Public AM010 ? ) , it will be OK/Fine too


If it can hit 4 m/s without malfunctioning (doesn't have to be perfect control), then I'll probably give it a test too.


----------



## Sencha

So what's it likely to weigh if product weight with cord is 120g?


----------



## johnsamuels

https://www.reddit.com/r/steelseries/comments/3m5smr/make_a_crap_mouse_to_save_280/


----------



## Nilizum

lmao is that 3310 price forrealz? If it is, then damn! Let's face it though, that $2.80 is a pretty big deal when they're mass producing, and the masses know nothing about mice.


----------



## speedyeggtart

What is order of the best or preferred sensor for competitive gaming?

3050
3090
3310
3320
3366

did i listed it correctly? These sensor model numbers are making me want to drink


----------



## aerowalk30

Shame about the rubber sides, always ruin the mouse for me.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *speedyeggtart*
> 
> What is order of the best or preferred sensor for competitive gaming?
> 
> 3050
> 3090
> 3310
> 3320
> 3366
> 
> did i listed it correctly? These sensor model numbers are making me want to drink


Despite what anyone will tell you its all preference in the end.

For example I prefer the 3050 in the Kinzu V3 over the 3010 in nearly all mice I've tried. Its all about sensor implementation.

But yes the list goes something like that I guess.....


----------



## kicksome

Yeah any word on release date?


----------



## Dreyka

Is sensor used known yet?


----------



## johnsamuels

3050. Indirectly confirmed on a reddit thread.

Only die hard solipsists would try to argue the sensor has not been confirmed.

Unless of course enough voices are heard and for once in their company history SS actually listens to the feedback.


----------



## Nivity

According to Maxfps the mouse is released tomorrow.
They just updated their facebook about the mouse.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> According to Maxfps the mouse is released tomorrow.
> They just updated their facebook about the mouse.


Is anybody here gonna pick it up? I'd like to see button lag tests and MouseTester screens. For me, it's only worth getting if it performs better than the Kinzu V3.


----------



## Nivity

I am interested in the mouse, but waiting for someone else to test it


----------



## GameFX

If any of my local stores - Fry's , Microcenter or Best Buy get it in stock. I will definitely pick it up....I really like the Rival but I'm more of a claw user and the mouse's size is just too large.


----------



## dzlDave

The Rival 100 comes with a new SDNS-3059-SS custom sensor, built upon the 3050. We have optimized its performance based on the feedback we received from our pros and our global teams.
The SDNS-3059-SS is SteelSeries exclusive, we have worked with PixArt to fine tune the sensor for perfect tracking performance.


----------



## qsxcv

interesting... could you tell us anything more specific about its differences from 3050?


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> The Rival 100 comes with a new SDNS-3059-SS custom sensor, built upon the 3050. We have optimized its performance based on the feedback we received from our pros and our global teams.
> The SDNS-3059-SS is exclusive to SteelSeries, we have worked with PixArt to fine tune the sensor for perfect tracking performance.
> Some of the changes are that Rival 100 offers better performance paired with an optimal low lift of distance.


Thanks for the info Dave, is there a release date for the mouse yet?


----------



## dzlDave

The 2 major are optimized tracking performance paired with an optimal low lift of distance.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Thanks for the info Dave, is there a release date for the mouse yet?


That info will come from official sources, not me







. It will be diffrent per regions.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> The 2 major are optimized tracking performance paired with an optimal low lift of distance.


Sounds great! Thanks for the information. Has anything been done to improve button latency? That appears to have been an issue with the Kinzus (which could be considered the predecessors of the Rival 100 based on shape and size): http://cdn.overclock.net/8/8e/8e56a60d_button_latency_testing_overall_150718.png Afaik, the Kinzu V3 is also somewhere upwards of 20 ms.


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> That info will come from official sources, not me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . It will be diffrent per regions.


Fair enough! Can you talk about dimensions at all? Still wondering if it's closer in size to a kinzu or kana.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Sounds great! Thanks for the information. Has anything been done to improve button latency? That appears to have been an issue with the Kinzus (which could be considered the predecessors of the Rival 100 based on shape and size): http://cdn.overclock.net/8/8e/8e56a60d_button_latency_testing_overall_150718.png Afaik, the Kinzu V3 is also somewhere upwards of 20 ms.


Sorry, I dont know about that specific issue i'm afraid. But Rival 100 is a brand new mouse, sure Kinzu can be seen as a predecessor but Rival 100 is a new developed product and it doesnt have any legacy with Kinzu other than similar price and and size segment.
I assume more info will come once editors gets their hands on it, which I hope will be soon.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Fair enough! Can you talk about dimensions at all? Still wondering if it's closer in size to a kinzu or kana.


Its right-handed ergonomically shaped , I dont have the dimensions but IMO its closer to Kana I would say.


----------



## popups

Why does it seem like this guy has nothing to do with SteelSeries? Maybe it's the name he uses for the sensor, how he doesn't know the dimensions of the product, etc.


----------



## Nilizum

Because he said
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> Its right-handed ergonomically shaped , I dont have the dimensions but IMO its closer to Kana I would say.


When it's right handed ambidextrous shaped.

Also, the dimensions are available on the reseller website.

Product weight - with cord (g) 120 g
Product weight - with cord (lbs) .264 lbs
Product width 76.05 mm
Product width 2.99 in
Product height 120.6 mm
Product height 4.75 in
Product depth 38.12 mm
Product depth 1.5 in

Their width is probably minus 10 cm


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

This guy totally works for Steelseries. Without a shred of doubt. There is no possible way he could not.


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> The Rival 100 comes with a new SDNS-3059-SS custom sensor, built upon the 3050. We have optimized its performance based on the feedback we received from our pros and our global teams.
> The SDNS-3059-SS is SteelSeries exclusive, we have worked with PixArt to fine tune the sensor for perfect tracking performance.


Lipstick on a pig.

Why not just spend $2 more and put a 3310 in it? Then you'd have a competitive mouse for fingertip and claw users.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> optimized tracking performance


any details you could share beyond this?

iirc one of the issues with 3050 is jitter at higher resolutions.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> any details you could share beyond this?
> 
> iirc one of the issues with 3050 is jitter at higher resolutions.


Arrary: 19x19

Note: As the sensor resolution increases, slight performance degradation on certain surfaces may be observed.
For higher than 500 dpi setting, use 12-bit motion reporting to achieve the maximum speed.


----------



## qsxcv

that's from the datasheet
i'm asking about difference between their supposed 3059 and the standard 3050


----------



## Aventadoor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Because he said
> When it's right handed ambidextrous shaped.
> 
> Also, the dimensions are available on the reseller website.
> 
> Product weight - with cord (g) 120 g
> Product weight - with cord (lbs) .264 lbs
> Product width 76.05 mm
> Product width 2.99 in
> Product height 120.6 mm
> Product height 4.75 in
> Product depth 38.12 mm
> Product depth 1.5 in
> 
> Their width is probably minus 10 cm


The width cant be correct...
76.05mm. If its like a kana it would be like 64mm? Cant remember or bother to check

I dont think he works for steelseries either? They have a rep here if I dont remember wrong.


----------



## Maximillion

I'd actually love it if the mouse was that wide.


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I'd actually love it if the mouse was that wide.


Me as well. I always feel every mouse nowadays is too narrow. Really like a wide mouse especially towards the back that my palm can rest comfortably on


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnsamuels*
> 
> Lipstick on a pig.
> 
> Why not just spend $2 more and put a 3310 in it? Then you'd have a competitive mouse for fingertip and claw users.


A pig with lipstick that has been to the gym


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> any details you could share beyond this?
> 
> iirc one of the issues with 3050 is jitter at higher resolutions.


Some of the things I know, but I believe these has been relvealed before:
120g weight
Zero Hardware Acc
1:1 tracking
1ms response time
RGB Illumination

My most personal oppinion is that its similar size as Kana though but with an ergo shape. It shares a lot of the shape and design from normal Rival but a lower height.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> The width cant be correct...
> 76.05mm. If its like a kana it would be like 64mm? Cant remember or bother to check
> 
> I dont think he works for steelseries either? They have a rep here if I dont remember wrong.


76,05mm is the number I can find as well but Im not sure if that is actually 100% correct. Normal Rival has a width of 70mm and to me I would say the Rival 100 is slimmer.
But I dont have any sample at hand so I cant check irl.
My personal description would be shape of Standard Rival but sized as Kana.

Im not the official rep for Steelseries in this forum. If I work for them or not........


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> 76,05mm is the number I can find as well but Im not sure if that is actually 100% correct. Normal Rival has a width of 70mm and to me I would say the Rival 100 is slimmer.
> But I dont have any sample at hand so I cant check irl.
> My personal description would be shape of Standard Rival but sized as Kana.
> 
> Im not the official rep for Steelseries in this forum. If I work for them or not........


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> Im not the official rep for Steelseries in this forum. If I work for them or not........


lolwut?

well do you have any info to share about the differences between the sdns-3059-ss and the standard 3050? anything more specific than "better" tracking?


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> lolwut?
> 
> well do you have any info to share about the differences between the sdns-3059-ss and the standard 3050? anything more specific than "better" tracking?


No, I dont have any more info unfortunately. Thats over my level.
What I wanted to point out was that its not the standard 3050 sensor in the Rival 100 which many people tend to believe earlier. It is a new 3059 sensor with improvements from the 3050. 3310 in the traditional Rival is still on top but we have tested the Rival 100 with its 3059 with some of our pro-players in Fnatic and Navi and the conclusion is that Rival 100 is definitly up to standard for competitive gaming.


----------



## Nilizum

What's the sensor position? There's no getting out of disclosing that, when you can give us the exact model of the sensor in it. Is it in the middle? Above the middle? Under the middle like Kana/Sensei?


----------



## MrKoala




----------



## Aventadoor

I can gurantee you that its not over 70mm wide.
Then its wider then even a Sensei, and many ergonomic mices.
Its similar to Kana, so around 65mm I'd asume.


----------



## Aventadoor

If MaxFPS get them today, why isent the mouse on Steelseries webpage?


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> If MaxFPS get them today, why isent the mouse on Steelseries webpage?


Kinda weird yes.
They have them in stock now anyway.
http://www.maxfps.se/moss/steelseries/rival-100-optical-mouse "I lager" = in stock, also confirmed on their facebook.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Kinda weird yes.
> They have them in stock now anyway.
> http://www.maxfps.se/moss/steelseries/rival-100-optical-mouse "I lager" = in stock, also confirmed on their facebook.


Aren't their supposed to be 5 more colors, too?


----------



## Sencha

Can you order from them to the UK??


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Aren't their supposed to be 5 more colors, too?


Its on the way


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> If MaxFPS get them today, why isent the mouse on Steelseries webpage?


It will be asap


----------



## TriviumKM

Don't feed the...


----------



## popups

There is nothing special about the ADNS-3050. I consider it an office grade sensor. The 3050 is basically a 250-500 CPI mouse. The array is smaller than a MLT-04. They are likely using it because they got a deal on leftovers.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> Don't feed the...


I already warned them.


----------



## CT2000

Is SteelseriesDave legit? I just noticed he posted the same thing on the reddit topic under the name dzldave. Only been a redditor for 17 hours.


----------



## Sencha

Well he hasn't been confirmed legit to my knowledge.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CT2000*
> 
> Is SteelseriesDave legit? I just noticed he posted the same thing on the reddit topic under the name dzldave. Only been a redditor for 17 hours.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Well he hasn't been confirmed legit to my knowledge.


Remember that guy that came onto the forums right before Razer released their Philips Twin Eye mice? The guy that was trying hard to sell the PLN sensor as the world's most advance sensor for gaming.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CT2000*
> 
> Is SteelseriesDave legit? I just noticed he posted the same thing on the reddit topic under the name dzldave. Only been a redditor for 17 hours.


Yeah, i noticed the same discussion on reddit. Thought i share some info there as well. As im not the official rep to reply in forums i didnt bother register a name including Steelseries.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Remember that guy that came onto the forums right before Razer released their Philips Twin Eye mice? The guy that was trying hard to sell the PLN sensor as the world's most advance sensor for gaming.


His claims weren't so far off if you exclude the exaggerations. This guy, however, claims to work at Steelseries and that he has insider knowledge concerning the sensor - yet he calls the Rival 100 as ergonomic even though it's 100% ambidextrous (except the side-buttons seem to be only on one side). Doesn't seem very legit to me.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Remember that guy that came onto the forums right before Razer released their Philips Twin Eye mice? The guy that was trying hard to sell the PLN sensor as the world's most advance sensor for gaming.


My intention was not to overhype it, just clearify it was a new 3059 sensor(yes, base on 3050) and not 3050 which most thought before. This is for sure not the most advance mouse(standard Rival is still more advance), but a very competitive mouse for 39.99 € and good enough for pro-gaming.


----------



## Aventadoor

What did steelseries pay you?
Free gear? Get out of here, ur not real.


----------



## CT2000

Well no need to prove anything. Time will tell whether your statements are accurate or not and I have no doubt we will know everything about the performance of this sensor shortly after it's release. I was just posting what I observed.


----------



## ronal

Making a custom sensor based off the 3050 (which is old tech) is ludicrous, why not just use the 3310 instead and call it a day.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CT2000*
> 
> Well no need to prove anything. Time will tell whether your statements are accurate or not and I have no doubt we will know everything about the performance of this sensor shortly after it's release. I was just posting what I observed.


no, problem. fair enough


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Making a custom sensor based off the 3050 (which is old tech) is ludicrous, why not just use the 3310 instead and call it a day.


Of course price is a factor. Though I have no clue about the actual cost diffrence between the to. But regular Rival with 3310 sells a bit higher ~69,99 compared to Rival 100 which targets for 39,99 so resonable there should be some price diffrence.
Old is not necessarly bad. Kinzu V3 and Kana V2 that both runs older Optical sensor are still very popular mices and can perform in pro-games.
And Rival 100 is certainly not the only new Steelseries mouse to come in the near future, there will be something new to target a more premium audience as well.
(btw sorry if the English is poor, i'm Swedish)


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> no, problem. fair enough


Why on earth did they use that sensor, and when is the person who made that decision being fired?

Was it really to save $2 per mouse in costs?

There is ZERO chance the 3050/59 will be able to perform at anywhere near the new benchmark, which is the 3310. Everywhere there are people saying the decision was straight up idiotic. Here are all some of the words I have seen used to describe the sensor choice:

'abysmal'
'baffling'
'beyond stupid'
'******ed'
'idiotic'


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Making a custom sensor based off the 3050 (which is old tech) is ludicrous, why not just use the 3310 instead and call it a day.


It's not a custom sensor. Changing a 0 to a 9 doesn't change the hardware. Razer tries to act like the 3989 is a different sensor -- same applies here. If it is true that it's called a 3059, the only thing different would be the SROM. However, doesn't this mouse use the MCU to create settings above 2000 CPI? Also, the 3050 hits its performance limit at 500 CPI. It would have been better to go with a PMW-3320, but they want a higher malfunction speed.

If they wanted to make a variant of a lower end sensor, they should have got PixArt to increase the frame rate on the PMW-3320 and exclude all smoothing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnsamuels*
> 
> Why on earth did they use that sensor, and when is the person who made that decision being fired?
> 
> Was it really to save $2 per mouse in costs?
> 
> There is ZERO chance the 3050/59 will be able to perform at anywhere near the new benchmark, which is the 3310. Everywhere there are people saying the decision was straight up idiotic. Here are all some of the words I have seen used to describe the sensor choice:
> 
> 'abysmal'
> 'baffling'
> 'beyond stupid'
> '******ed'
> 'idiotic'


They most likely got a deal on a bunch of leftover 3050 sensors. Who wants to sell 3050 mice these days? If they hype up the mouse/sensor they could make a lot of money. So, it's not dumb of them to make such a product.


----------



## CorruptBE

3310 is a reliable sensor but it's not the new "benchmark" tbh.

Benchmark would be the 3366.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> His claims weren't so far off if you exclude the exaggerations. This guy, however, claims to work at Steelseries and that he has insider knowledge concerning the sensor - yet he calls the Rival 100 as ergonomic even though it's 100% ambidextrous (except the side-buttons seem to be only on one side). Doesn't seem very legit to me.


Yeah, that was weird. I mean whether or not he's legit he seriously needs to see an eye doctor. No offense, Dave. That screen from the SteelSeries website also said 3050 not 3059. Not sure what you would get out of trolling us but whatever floats your boat


----------



## CT2000

So we could see a Rival 100/300/600 series as a future product line? I think Steelseries needs to do something more with the Rival line. It just makes sense. The Sensei shape is fantastic but leave many people wanting something with an optical and I don't see how the Rival 100 fits that niche. Logically I could see them expanding this line as the replacement to the Kinzu.


----------



## Derp

Steelseries and their entry level sensor fetish.


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> Of course price is a factor. Though I have no clue about the actual cost diffrence between the to. But regular Rival with 3310 sells a bit higher ~69,99 compared to Rival 100 which targets for 39,99 so resonable there should be some price diffrence.
> Old is not necessarly bad. Kinzu V3 and Kana V2 that both runs older Optical sensor are still very popular mices and can perform in pro-games.
> And Rival 100 is certainly not the only new Steelseries mouse to come in the near future, there will be something new to target a more premium audience as well.
> (btw sorry if the English is poor, i'm Swedish)


For a regular nobody, it would cost $4 for the 3050 and $6.80 for the 3310. For a big company the prices would be much lower and the gap much lower also.

Old is bad unless you are talking about the WMO. The Kana was released years ago and you are using it as justification for releasing a mouse in 2015 with an older sensor than the Kana had?!? Crazy talk.

Yes SS will release another very large and heavy 'premium' mouse. We all know that is exactly what you are going to do. Another brick with a sensor in it somewhere.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> His claims weren't so far off if you exclude the exaggerations. This guy, however, claims to work at Steelseries and that he has insider knowledge concerning the sensor - yet he calls the Rival 100 as ergonomic even though it's 100% ambidextrous (except the side-buttons seem to be only on one side). Doesn't seem very legit to me.


Its refered to as Ergonomic. Not as much curved as big brother Rival but still more Ergo than ambidex.
But yes, on the pictures it definitly looks ambidex.


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> 3310 is a reliable sensor but it's not the new "benchmark" tbh.
> 
> Benchmark would be the 3366.


I only didn't say 3366 as it is exclusive to Logitech at the moment right?

3310 is the best sensor that everyone can put in a mouse.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CT2000*
> 
> So we could see a Rival 100/300/600 series as a future product line? I think Steelseries needs to do something more with the Rival line. It just makes sense. The Sensei shape is fantastic but leave many people wanting something with an optical and I don't see how the Rival 100 fits that niche. Logically I could see them expanding this line as the replacement to the Kinzu.


yes, you will...you can already google Rival 300 and Rival 300 CS:GO Fade for example


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Yeah, that was weird. I mean whether or not he's legit he seriously needs to see an eye doctor. No offense, Dave. That screen from the SteelSeries website also said 3050 not 3059. Not sure what you would get out of trolling us but whatever floats your boat


He's probably from Reddit.

SteelSeries won't allow someone to come on here like that and OC mods will stiff arm them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Steelseries and their entry level sensor fetish.


They like to go low, and stay low, to make the most...

The person that runs Zowie used to work for SteelSeries? It wouldn't be a surprise if that is the case because they are similar.


----------



## CT2000

.. yes but the internals haven't changed in the Rival 300 correct?


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CT2000*
> 
> .. yes but the internals haven't changed in the Rival 300 correct?


Nope.

Steelseries thinks little mice need cheap internals, and big mice get the more expensive stuff.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Yeah, that was weird. I mean whether or not he's legit he seriously needs to see an eye doctor. No offense, Dave. That screen from the SteelSeries website also said 3050 not 3059. Not sure what you would get out of trolling us but whatever floats your boat


Can you send me that link/screen?


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CT2000*
> 
> .. yes but the internals haven't changed in the Rival 300 correct?


yes, correct


----------



## CT2000

Yeah someone at SS needs to pay attention. Sensei shape/6 buttons + 3310+ sensor = $$$


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CT2000*
> 
> Yeah someone at SS needs to pay attention. Sensei shape/6 buttons + 3310+ sensor = $$$


As a Sensei Wireless user myself I would actually love that! I hope that happens as well.


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> Can you send me that link/screen?


http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/lightbox/post/24343488/id/2564566


----------



## johnsamuels

A lot of ppl are buying chinese knock offs in order to get the sensei body with a good sensor (3310). Talk about not listening to your customers. SS is straight up deaf.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnsamuels*
> 
> A lot of ppl are buying chinese knock offs in order to get the sensei body with a good sensor (3310). Talk about not listening to your customers. SS is straight up deaf.


People continue to buy their old products anyway.

Why change when you are still making money? Logitech changed when they weren't making money.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/lightbox/post/24343488/id/2564566


I believe this is either mistake or early planning. Also the CPI is wrong, the Rival 100 supports CPI up to 4000 not 2000. And all the latest info I have is that it is S3059.
Anyway the product has reach some stores now, so we will most likely see a review pretty soon.


----------



## qsxcv

...as i said before, 3310 is the most overrated sensor ever.
why don't we wait and see how the 3050/9 in this actually performs


----------



## a_ak57

The only reason I think the 100 would be listed as ergonomic is because it doesn't seem to have right side buttons. The shape looks completely ambi though.


----------



## Maximillion

I can't believe this guy is trying to pass himself of as a Steelseries employee, lmao. Best troll we've had in awhile.

All these antics aside, I think we all just need to wait and see how this sensor performs in practical use before we write the mouse off as a fail/useless. I mainly want confirmation on the width at this point.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It's not a custom sensor. Changing a 0 to a 9 doesn't change the hardware. Razer tries to act like the 3989 is a different sensor -- same applies here. If it is true that it's called a 3059, the only thing different would be the SROM. However, doesn't this mouse use the MCU to create settings above 2000 CPI? Also, the 3050 hits its performance limit at 500 CPI. It would have been better to go with a PMW-3320, but they want a higher malfunction speed.


It's definitely not an original 3050 sensor now is it. Razer did the same with their sensor which was based off the Avago 3090 at the time.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I can't believe this guy is trying to pass himself of as a Steelseries employee, lmao. Best troll we've had in awhile.
> 
> All these antics aside, I think we all just need to wait and see how this sensor performs in practical use before we write the mouse off as a fail/useless. I mainly want confirmation on the width at this point.



Then I will be a Swedish Viking Troll


----------



## a_ak57

If he is an employee, he's probably gonna be yelled at since he doesn't really seem to know much of anything useful thus shouldn't be conducting PR here. With a community like this you can't really just spout generic marketing lines like "awesome tracking sensor due to our custom technology" and expect everyone to love it. People here wanna know about perfect control speed, smoothing, etc. I mean honestly, if you don't even know something as basic as the dimensions...

Assuming not a troll, I would guess he's probably just someone who lucked into being a product tester without really knowing much about the technical side of mice. Or maybe an intern/low level employee who wants to prove they can make it in marketing or something.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> It's definitely not an original 3050 sensor now is it. Razer did the same with their sensor which was based off the Avago 3090 at the time.


I will not argue with that, the S3059 is based from the 3050. How much has actually changed or not I honestly dont know, im not an R&D guy







, but I know its has been fined tuned and tweaked.
We are confident with the performance and we look forward for the reviews.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> ...as i said before, 3310 is the most overrated sensor ever.
> why don't we wait and see how the 3050/9 in this actually performs


A polished turd is still a turd, there's only so much you can do with 3050 base. And SS' history of tracking performance doesn't exactly inspire confidence.


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> I believe this is either mistake or early planning. Also the CPI is wrong, the Rival 100 supports CPI up to 4000 not 2000. And all the latest info I have is that it is S3059.
> Anyway the product has reach some stores now, so we will most likely see a review pretty soon.


CPI up to 2000
DCPI up to 4000 ( Doubled CPI )








http://reseller.steelseries.com/product/11691


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> ...as i said before, 3310 is the most overrated sensor ever.
> why don't we wait and see how the 3050/9 in this actually performs


I hear it performs decently if you use 500 CPI or 250 CPI; anything above that it sucks. That's not a surprise because of the hardware. If it's the standard 3050 it's probably a 500 CPI sensor, with no smoothing, that runs close to 6700 FPS.

You can ask the people who used the Aurora beta samples or BST. That mouse had a 3050 in it first.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> It's definitely not an original 3050 sensor now is it. Razer did the same with their sensor which was based off the Avago 3090 at the time.


When you get an exclusivity contract your sensor has a different name until it's released to the public. The difference with those variants tends to be only the SROM.

I don't consider a SROM as a sensor.

What magic can you pull off with a 19x19 sensor that cannot run past 500 CPI without major sacrifices? That's why there is a PMW-3320.

They are using the MCU to create CPI steps above 2000, which indicates this mouse is nothing special. This era isn't about faking CPI through MCU.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> If he is an employee, he's probably gonna be yelled at since he doesn't really seem to know much of anything useful thus shouldn't be conducting PR here. With a community like this you can't really just spout generic marketing lines like "awesome tracking sensor due to our custom technology" and expect everyone to love it. People here wanna know about perfect control speed, smoothing, etc. I mean honestly, if you don't even know something as basic as the dimensions...
> 
> Assuming not a troll, I would guess he's probably just someone who lucked into being a product tester without really knowing much about the technical side of mice. Or maybe an intern/low level employee who wants to prove they can make it in marketing or something.


I think he is just some guy who subscribed to SteelSeries' newsletter.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> If he is an employee, he's probably gonna be yelled at since he doesn't really seem to know much of anything useful thus shouldn't be conducting PR here. With a community like this you can't really just spout generic marketing lines like "awesome tracking sensor due to our custom technology" and expect everyone to love it. People here wanna know about perfect control speed, smoothing, etc. I mean honestly, if you don't even know something as basic as the dimensions...
> 
> Assuming not a troll, I would guess he's probably just someone who lucked into being a product tester without really knowing much about the technical side of mice. Or maybe an intern/low level employee who wants to prove they can make it in marketing or something.


The intention was to just point out that the sensor is called S3059 and not same as 3050 and there are improvments made. There was questions which sensor it really had, so the point was to clearify that.
I'll let you know if ill get yelled at, maybe I will







.
And no, I didnt find the dimensions info at first.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> CPI up to 2000
> DCPI up to 4000 ( Doubled CPI )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://reseller.steelseries.com/product/11691


true, my bad


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> ...as i said before, 3310 is the most overrated sensor ever.
> why don't we wait and see how the 3050/9 in this actually performs


And yet I would take it blind over this sensor any day of the week.
3310 is a stable sensor with good m/s. That is all most people want or need.


----------



## qsxcv

uhm 3050 has good m/s as well
http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/300_100#post_24408907

it's technically weak, cheap, and low end but that doesn't mean it's bad.
just to play devil's advocate, here's my biased comparison of 3050 and 3310

framerate:
3050: stable 6666; 3310: speed-dependent values of 2080, 4100, 6500

smoothing:
3050: none; 3310: 4ms

variance:
3050: probably not bad; 3310: inherits some of 9500/9800 architecture's variance issues.

dpi:
who needs >500 dpi anyway?

tracking speed:
3050: >=4m/s; 3310: 6-7m/s
it's very rare to actually need those speeds in-game


----------



## Aventadoor

Man, pro's use Kinzu or Kana. I dont see the problem. Fix your crosshair placement then fix your aim.

^
Yes I just did say that!


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uhm 3050 has good m/s as well
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/300_100#post_24408907
> 
> it's technically weak, cheap, and low end but that doesn't mean it's bad.
> just to play devil's advocate, here's my biased comparison of 3050 and 3310
> 
> framerate:
> 3050: stable 6666; 3310: speed-dependent values of 2080, 4100, 6500
> 
> smoothing:
> 3050: none; 3310: 4ms
> 
> variance:
> 3050: probably not bad; 3310: inherits some of 9500/9800 architecture's variance issues.
> 
> dpi:
> who needs >500 dpi anyway?
> 
> tracking speed:
> 3050: >=4m/s; 3310: 6-7m/s
> it's very rare to actually need those speeds in-game


I completely agree with you. I was also convinced by the 3310 hype before, but it's actually overrated. All it has going for it is the max tracking speed, and most people won't need one that high anyway. However, what they could have used is the 3320.

It'll be interesting to see how this one performs. I'd do some acceleration tests with the Kinzu V3, but I don't see the point if we can wait for tests of the Rival 100.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uhm 3050 has good m/s as well
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/300_100#post_24408907
> 
> dpi:
> who needs >500 dpi anyway?


The majority of the people using mice use well over 500dpi, so many?
Used 800-1000dpi for years and never going to change that.

Also 500dpi @ 1440p desktop, no thanks.


----------



## wareya

what was the difference between the 3050 and 3090 again

I don't want to have to dig out reliable measurements from all the FUNposting and FUD that searching for them returns


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uhm 3050 has good m/s as well
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/300_100#post_24408907
> 
> it's technically weak, cheap, and low end but that doesn't mean it's bad.
> just to play devil's advocate, here's my biased comparison of 3050 and 3310
> 
> framerate:
> 3050: stable 6666; 3310: speed-dependent values of 2080, 4100, 6500
> 
> smoothing:
> 3050: none; 3310: 4ms
> 
> variance:
> 3050: probably not bad; 3310: inherits some of 9500/9800 architecture's variance issues.
> 
> dpi:
> who needs >500 dpi anyway?
> 
> tracking speed:
> 3050: >=4m/s; 3310: 6-7m/s
> it's very rare to actually need those speeds in-game


I consider the 3050 an office grade product relative to other sensors that have been used.

If you just play FPS games, and don't need more than 500 CPI, it could be a decent cheap mouse.

I would probably use it if it wasn't in a cheap shell. I see no reason for me to give up on my Zowie AM-FG. If it was an improved Kana shape, white gloss and a 3320, it might replace my Zowie.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> what was the difference between the 3050 and 3090 again
> 
> I don't want to have to dig out reliable measurements from all the FUNposting and FUD that searching for them returns


3050 has very weak hardware. The 3090 has decent hardware. It's really that simple.


----------



## qsxcv

well mlt04 has "weak" hardware too right? by the numbers, the only thing it has going for it is ~9000fps


----------



## RDno1

Okay, I was curious and tested the Kinzu V3 variance anyway. I might not have lined it up perfectly, but this is what I got:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rg2h0ScULM


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well mlt04 has "weak" hardware too right? by the numbers, the only thing it has going for it is ~9000fps


The archaic MLT-04 has a larger array than the 3050, yet the MLT was not intended for gaming. Also, it was created a very long time ago.


----------



## wareya

I mean are there any differences in terms of things like default lense, framerate, sensor resolution, illumination, srom? or is literally the only difference the microcontroller as is being implied

>The archaic MLT-04 has a larger array than the 3050, yet the MLT was not intended for gaming.

and the MLT04 manages a much lower malfunction speed than the sensor with a lower framerate and smaller array


----------



## qsxcv

3050 and 3090 are completely different. 3090 is in same family as 2020, 3060 3070 3080 3668 3888 etc..., and 3050 is based off 5050 (which is intended for office use)
lenses are different
from datasheets:
Quote:


> The ADNS-3050 sensor along with the ADNS-5110-001
> lens, ADNS-5200 clip, and HLMP-EG3E red LED forms a
> complete and compact mouse tracking system


Quote:


> The ADNS-3090 along with the ADNS-2120-001 trim lens,
> ADNS-2220-001 assembly clip and HLMP-ED80-XX000 form
> a complete, compact optical mouse tracking system


i think it's pretty common for companies to try different led's and clips though


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I mean are there any differences in terms of things like default lense, framerate, sensor resolution, illumination, srom? or is literally the only difference the microcontroller as is being implied
> 
> >The archaic MLT-04 has a larger array than the 3050, yet the MLT was not intended for gaming.
> 
> and the MLT04 manages a much lower malfunction speed than the sensor with a lower framerate and smaller array


I think the lens is 1.0 magnification, but the sensor is closer to the surface. Max frame rate is ~6666. Array size is 19x19. Max CPI before performance degradation is 500. It uses a visible red LED. The SROM has incremental CPI settings of 250 up to 2000. I'm not aware of any smoothing applied in the SROM.

The MLT-04 is an archaic design. What do expect from a sensor designed over 12 years ago for office work?


----------



## wareya

>What do expect from a sensor designed over 12 years ago for office work?

Novel image correlation techniques that make no sense and have never been seen ever since then, apparently.


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> and the MLT04 manages a much lower malfunction speed than the sensor with a lower framerate and smaller array


Malfunction is actually where you'd expect it with those framerates, i. e. at around 3m/s. The perfect control cap is not a correlation or hardware issue, lower end is buffer size and for upper it's the data path clipping somewhere, probably wMaxPacketSize (4bytes). And even then it malfunctions more gracefully than most modern sensors (just stops reporting and recovers once speeds are interpretable again, whereas a majority of modern sensors completely freak out and don't recover until movement stops).


----------



## wareya

mlt04 malfunction above 1.5m/s is surface-dependent. it cannot reasonably be a "buffer clipping" issue (wat?) -- that would change caps linearly with polling rate, 500/125 is 4x)

http://sousuch.web.fc2.com/DIY/mouse_senor/image/IME3.gif


----------



## HAGGARD

Surface-dependent or not, the malfunction inherently is not 1.5m/s. Stuff like not being optimized for a variety of surfaces (or CPI, etc.) is actually what makes the MLT04 so raw/puristic I have to assume.

I said lower end is buffer limitation, which does scale with polling rate. Upper limit should be data path clipping, i. e. the USB descriptors were set not with the maximum capabilities of the sensor in mind and so it simply can't transfer as many counts per report (at < report/2ms) as it can interpret.


----------



## qsxcv

assuming a reasonable tracking surface and reasonable image focus, perfect control speed depends on
1. framerate
2. base dpi (i.e. physical resolution of the pixel array * lens magnification)
3. how far the dsp searches for correlations. and this is limited by the size of the pixel array. e.g. if you have a 30x30 array you can't search for correlations separated by 40 pixels since there's no overlap if you shift a frame by that much.

example: 6500 frames per second / 800pixel per inch * 0.0254 inch/meter * 30pixel max search distance = 6.19125 meters/second

malfunction speed is different and can be pretty much anything. for instance you can have a sensor, for which, if it doesn't know what's going on, just outputs the last previous valid data. then you'd have infinite malfunction speed. not that that's very useful though...
and then of course, 8bit integer problems can limit things further, which is what happens to mlt04 at 125hz. but for mlt04 at 1000hz, there's no such limitation or any similar bottleneck.

<--below is my speculation-->

for avago/pixart sensors however, it seems that the dsp is especially eager to output something even if the correlations are weak. so we get all sorts of crazy data when swiping faster than the perfect control speed.
for mlt04, the reason its pcs is so low is because of 3.

as for the recovery speed which HAGGARD mentioned, i'm pretty sure it's because modern sensors are a lot more predictive. if the previous frame had 20 counts of movement, it's not going to search for correlations corresponding to 5 counts of movement in the current frame. thus when it's malfunctioning it returns to the default search domain around 0 motion. so that's why it doesn't start tracking again until you slow down significantly. since computational power is so limited on these dsps, this sort of thing is necessary to achieve high tracking speeds
for the mlt04 presumably it doesn't do this and the correlation search is the same for every new frame.


----------



## johnsamuels

I was hitting some sort of malfunction or neg accel speed in game with the Kana, so would probably have to change the whole way I aim to use the WMO. Unless I could overclock usb in win 8.1


----------



## wareya

>I said lower end is buffer limitation, which does scale with polling rate.

can you explain where that would lie in the sensor -> mcu -> cable chain

because i'm pretty sure that if some "buffer" were capping out, then either 125hz and 500hz would be the same, or 500hz would have more like 4x the malfunction speed, or the true malfunction speed of the mouse would be hit (which it is).

the real reason that it's hitting a cap at 1.5m/s instead of, like, 4m/s, is probably because it uses a binary sensor array instead of an 8-bit one. you say a binary array is why it feels so responsive. I know that's wrong because I understand how signal processing works. Literally all having a binary array does is introduce posterization -- quantization -- which eliminates information that can be useful when other dimensions are scarce (correlation overlap area) in return for _possibly_ (and I really mean that: the following statement is speculation) being excessively responsive to initial movements.

We already know that the MLT04 has weird correlation properties (i.e. diagonals). There's no reason to believe that some strange buffering bug is the reason that it malfunctions easily. That would *not* be surface-dependent. The much easier explanation is that -- and guess what, this is compatible with the information that the malfunction properties depend on the surface -- the binary sensor array becomes harmful at high speeds, which it obviously does if you have any idea how ICS math works. You can even see it cause jitter on soft pads like the QCK and less on glass ones like the G-Pad.

Indeed, look at what the DTP Soft does. _Oh my god._


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> the real reason that it's hitting a cap at 1.5m/s instead of, like, 4m/s, is probably because it uses a binary sensor array instead of an 8-bit one. you say a binary array is why it feels so responsive.


i think that would just make it less accurate and not any more responsive...

blah i wish someone who from pixart/avago/agilent/stm would come here and clear everything up


----------



## wareya

>i think that would just make it less accurate and not any more responsive...

It might make it more responsive, but it would always make it less accurate yes

It might make it more responsive because small movements show up as full pixel changes instead of possibly being masked out by noise for that frame

Either way I'm just referencing another post of his about the MLT04 from a while ago


----------



## qsxcv

well to shift an entire pixel, a lot of pixels flip so it doesn't really matter if a small movement causes an entire pixel to change. just means that a lot of other small movements result in no change at all, whereas with a grayscale sensor you would always have some small shift in every pixel's level for small movements.

it would make things much simpler computationally though

also i'm fairly sure that the diagonal line thing is because it uses an algorithm similar to the cross deadzone thing we discussed last time. i can't think of any other way to achieve that... plus i think single pixel movements feel funny with mlt04.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> >also i'm fairly sure that the diagonal line thing is because it uses an algorithm similar to the cross deadzone thing we discussed last time. i can't think of any other way to achieve that...


it could theoretically do diagonal correlation and cancel it out with the axial correlation to get this kind of smoothed diagonal axial correlation

you just need more counters and a bit of math
Quote:


> >plus i think single pixel movements feel funny with mlt04.


interesting

but it should still loose out by a count in count countings, even when latency is eliminated as a factor, if it's using a deadzone


----------



## qsxcv

just get one of these
http://www.amazon.com/Custom-X-Y-Linear-Translation-Stage/dp/B00QXEDQP8/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1443240877&sr=8-6&keywords=xy+translation+stage

and we'll know for sure









maybe the deadzone recenters if the motion exceeds 2 pixels or something


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >I said lower end is buffer limitation, which does scale with polling rate.
> 
> can you explain where that would lie in the sensor -> mcu -> cable chain
> 
> because i'm pretty sure that if some "buffer" were capping out, then either 125hz and 500hz would be the same, or 500hz would have more like 4x the malfunction speed, or the true malfunction speed of the mouse would be hit (which it is).


The internal memory buffer used to store count data to be periodically called by the host. At 125Hz (i. e. 8ms buffer flushing interval) the PCS caps out at 1m/s. That's the "lower limit" I was talking about introduced by buffer overflow. 500Hz and beyond you hit the 1.5m/s cap which then obviously must have its root somewhere else (because increasing polling rate then does not also increase PCS). And again, I am talking about perfect control speed, not malfunction speed.
Quote:


> the real reason that it's hitting a cap at 1.5m/s instead of, like, 4m/s, is probably because it uses a binary sensor array instead of an 8-bit one. you say a binary array is why it feels so responsive. I know that's wrong because I understand how signal processing works. Literally all having a binary array does is introduce posterization -- quantization -- which eliminates information that can be useful when other dimensions are scarce (correlation overlap area) in return for _possibly_ (and I really mean that: the following statement is speculation) being excessively responsive to initial movements.
> 
> [...]


Look, I'm not trying to challenge your understanding of these matters, all I am saying is that it's a fact that the MLT04 does not malfunction at 1.5m/s but somewhere at around 3m/s. That's on most surfaces I have tried them on btw. It knows a maximum amount of counts it transfers per report (32 at 1kHz) but doesn't malfunction until speeds beyond that, so from there the conclusion has to be that the perfect control cap is introduced somewhere else, likely in the transfer specs. And apart from the mathematical nature of the correlation method, not optimizing a sensor for a variety of tasks/surfaces/CPIs also means you don't have to compromise (i. e. anti-jitter, normalization, increased angle error correction, illumination properties, what qsx speculates about modern implementations being more predictive etc.), which is what I as a layman think makes the tracking feel so unaltered. Whether the MLT04 "makes sense" or measures up to modern sensors technologically is another question; I'd agree the fact that manufacturers stray away from whatever made the MLT04 what it is means there's something inherently incompatible with what they are trying to create (be it high PCS, CPI, maybe even the diagonal tracking).
Just your critique is wrong. Malfunction properties with the MLT04 are not inferior to modern sensors, I'd argue the opposite. The PCS cap is unfortunate, but 1.5m/s is still perfectly sufficient for even low sensitivity FPS.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uhm 3050 has good m/s as well
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/300_100#post_24408907
> 
> it's technically weak, cheap, and low end but that doesn't mean it's bad.
> just to play devil's advocate, here's my biased comparison of 3050 and 3310
> 
> framerate:
> 3050: stable 6666; 3310: speed-dependent values of 2080, 4100, 6500
> 
> smoothing:
> 3050: none; 3310: 4ms
> 
> variance:
> 3050: probably not bad; 3310: inherits some of 9500/9800 architecture's variance issues.
> 
> dpi:
> who needs >500 dpi anyway?
> 
> tracking speed:
> 3050: >=4m/s; 3310: 6-7m/s
> it's very rare to actually need those speeds in-game


This pretty much sums it up for me. The obsession with crazy tracking speeds is silly. Most FPS gamers do not go above 3 m/s, if you need to make long and fast swipes then you need to up that IQ in the game.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> That's on most surfaces I have tried them on btw. It knows a maximum amount of counts it transfers per report (32 at 1kHz)


5bits or 6bits seems like an unusual format

do you have any mousetester results showing 32 counts or even 31? highest i've seen is 29 iirc... i'll check again now.

but i think it's because 30 = 3 * 10, where 3 is the maximum search distance and 10 is the maximum possible number of frames in 1ms since it runs slightly above 9000fps


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well mlt04 has "weak" hardware too right? by the numbers, the only thing it has going for it is ~9000fps


Not even that. The 9000 fps MLT04 sensors actually came out in 2006 when they re-launched the IE 3.0. The mice were popular even before this change when they had MLT04 at 6400 fps..


----------



## qsxcv

is there actually any source, other than skylit's posts and other forum posts, that mlt04 was ever 6000fps
because i'm not convinced: http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/400_100#post_24421856
my x80 ime3.0, x80 wmo, x08 imo1.1, all behave identically in everything i've tried.


----------



## HAGGARD

Made this one just now with the OMB.

It does mostly cap at 30 though, this once could just be the program being messy.
Like in that other thread, I'm just going from the 128/64/32 counts thing that can be observed with 250/500/1000Hz, could be 30 I guess, but at <4ms it's 127 and not 120.

@wareya:
Not feeling going into semantics, but malfunction for me is "does nothing" whereas perfect control is "does something not accurately representing the physical movement". The MLT04 reports counts that correlate with 1.5/ms movement up to speeds of about 3m/s, after which it stops reporting altogether (malfunctions).

What do I care about that graph? I have a MLT04 in my hand right now and I am positive it does not stop tracking at 1.5m/s.


----------



## qsxcv

i tried like 20 times and never got any 31s

does enotus add x+y perhaps? i'd prefer to see mousetester plots

edit:
tried several more times, both directions. never got 31, only 30s.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> >but malfunction for me is "does nothing"


Great, because this mouse totally stops tracking right above 1.5m/s with perfectly legitimate surfaces!
Quote:


> >The MLT04 reports counts that correlate with 1.5/ms movement up to speeds of about 3m/s, after which it stops reporting altogether (malfunctions).


Pretty sure that you're experiencing reports of 1.2m/s of movement when you pass ~2.25m/s, because this guy literally failed to find a single mousepad between cloth, hard, and glass that reported speeds above 1.2m/s at speeds above ~2.25m/s. Unless, of course, your mousepad is one of a kind, and happens to be the most perfect mousepad for the MLT04, for no good reason.
Quote:


> >What do I care about that graph? I have a MLT04 in my hand right now and I am positive it does not stop tracking at 1.5m/s.


Maybe if you could find a way to give empirical data instead of "No, trust me bro, I got this"


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i tried like 20 times and never got any 31s
> 
> does enotus add x+y perhaps? i'd prefer to see mousetester plots


Adding X+Y could be it, not getting beyond 30 counts on MouseTester myself. Why 30/~63/127 then?
Quote:


> Great, because this mouse totally stops tracking right above 1.5m/s with perfectly legitimate surfaces!


Is a QCK legitimate? We are talking about the same thing with "stop tracking" right, that it does not register a single count?
Quote:


> Maybe if you could find a way to give empirical data instead of "No, trust me bro, I got this"


For that I'd need equipment that ~even you~ can't be bothered to pick up.
I have this graph here, 1.5m/s cap with malfunction (deadzone) happening later into the swipe, i. e. at higher speeds. Mind you, these are 4m/s swipes.


----------



## qsxcv

127 is due to 8bit limitation

63.......wat? trying now. hard to believe but i'll try


----------



## MrKoala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Maybe if you could find a way to give empirical data instead of "No, trust me bro, I got this"
> 
> 
> 
> For that I'd need equipment that ~even you~ can't be bothered to pick up.
Click to expand...

A normal camera with some reference objects would be good enough.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> >Is a QCK legitimate?


Pretty sure anything that's sold as a mousepad that isn't nine-inch crud meant for offices is a legitimate surface. There is the occasional exception, but four (countem) of these mousepads hit 0 counts between 1.5 and 2.0 m/s. One of them even comes back up and goes back down, in _straight lines_. Total malfunction. You cannot honestly tell me that the behavior on the DTP Soft is not malfunctioning.
Quote:


> >We are talking about the same thing with "stop tracking" right, that it does not register a single count?


There are mice that malfunction without stopping tracking.
Quote:


> >For that I'd need equipment that ~even you~ can't be bothered to pick up.


Of course I can't be bothered, I have no income.
Quote:


> >graph


Now do it with a second mouse at the same time so we can see the "real velocity" curve. http://www.overclock.net/t/1570462/mousecomparator

What mousepad are you using? Which MLT04 mouse do you have?


----------



## qsxcv

who cares about malfunction speed... as i explained it could be literally anything
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 127 is due to 8bit limitation
> 
> 63.......wat? trying now. hard to believe but i'll try


max i got was 56 with 500hz
according to my 9200fps and max count of 3 per frame idea, the max i'd expect to see in 2ms would be 3 * 19 = 57

edit:
here, after 18 trials, finally got one with 57:
http://i.imgur.com/tFfvlqk.png


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrKoala*
> 
> A normal camera with some reference objects would be good enough.


Not really. At that point I could just tell you to "try it yourself" and the empirical quality of the test would be equal.
Quote:


> What mousepad are you using? Which MLT04 mouse do you have?


QCK+ in portrait, have all the MLT04 mice. That graph was made with a WMO.

Do you have one yourself? Just try it. You are of course right, those results do suggest that the sensor stops tracking earlier than I feel (still not at 1.5m/s though), but what can I say... I could do math with that graph deducing what kind of speeds I ~should be~ at after those 100ms acceleration, but that won't do good.
Will do it with a second mouse simultaneously to see where that falls.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> who cares about malfunction speed... as i explained it could be literally anything
> max i got was 56 with 500hz
> according to my 9200fps and max count of 3 per frame idea, the max i'd expect to see in 2ms would be 3 * 19 = 57
> 
> edit:
> here, after 18 trials, finally got one with 57:
> http://i.imgur.com/tFfvlqk.png


Yeah, this is true. I looked back at my old post (http://www.overclock.net/t/1549979/differences-between-all-the-ime-3-0-variants/30#post_23770865) and found that I hit 57 max. there as well. So your idea of the perfect control cap being introduced is inherent in the correlation technique? I. e. 3 frames of reference not allowing more "correlative substance" or whatever.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> >Do you have one yourself?


Haven't for years. Loved it at the time, but took it for granted / didn't appreciate it like I should have.


----------



## MrKoala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Not really. At that point I could just tell you to "try it yourself" and the empirical quality of the test would be equal.


With a camera you can at least approximately measure the speed the mouse was going at and compare it to the peaks in the reading. Beats testing by feel, which can vary greatly from person to person.


----------



## qsxcv

are you guys arguing about whether the mlt04 tracks (as in outputs data) when its physical speed exceeds ~2m/s? uh answer's yes... there's literally nothing to be argued about that.


----------



## HAGGARD

]
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >Do you have one yourself?
> 
> Haven't for years. Loved it at the time, but took it for granted / didn't appreciate it like I should have.


Well you income-less fool, I would send you one as a gift but you are US-located I suppose and isn't that such a hassle.









Really though, check your craigslist or whatever, you WILL find one. Will test mine against a G400 tomorrow. I will say that graphs where count reports cap out to ~1.2m/s are a thing with these, but dead at 1.5 just can't be. I regularly played with mice with greater PCS and malfunction and I know I hit the same speeds with the MLT without stopping dead.
Quote:


> are you guys arguing about whether the mlt04 tracks (as in outputs data) when its physical speed exceeds ~2m/s? uh answer's yes... there's literally nothing to be argued about that.


Yeah, the original statement I was opposing was "mlt04 malfunctions at 1.5m/s" and the general notion that it is inferior to modern sensors. The speed response is superior to things like an EC2 from my experience.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrKoala*
> 
> With a camera you can at least approximately measure the speed the mouse was going at and compare it to the peaks in the reading. Beats testing by feel, which can vary greatly from person to person.


True, but I know my speeds are at least 3m/s from testing with other mice and other people would as well if they tried. You are right, that would be at least some empirical data, but I just think it's useless to do that. For real objective data you'd need a real-time side-by-side of tracking results and movement, preferably in a controlled environment.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> >I will say that graphs where count reports cap out to ~1.2m/s are a thing with these


Actually they cap out at 1.5m/s but dip down towards 1.2m/s as they pass the 2.25m/s mark

But he used a IME3.0 so there's a shadow of a chance that it malfunctions differently than your WMO.


----------



## MrKoala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> are you guys arguing about whether the mlt04 tracks (as in outputs data) when its physical speed exceeds ~2m/s? uh answer's yes... there's literally nothing to be argued about that.


It does output something, the problem is whether that's still meaningful/usable. At a certain point one could say it's all noise and no meaningful data. (That point seems to be significantly higher than 2m/s for MLT04 if you ask me.)


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrKoala*
> 
> It does output something, the problem is whether that's still meaningful/usable. At a certain point one could say it's all noise and no meaningful data. (That point seems to be significantly higher than 2m/s for MLT04 if you ask me.)


And I'm arguing it outputs perfectly reasonable data up to about 3m/s, just that the data is lossy and then non-existent beyond that. With modern implementations malfunction is a whole different kind of ugly. It just leaves all logic behind and flips you into nothingness. And then only gets reasonable again when you stop and start moving again, whereas the MLTs recover mid-swipe (as can be seen in that graph there too).
Quote:


> Actually they cap out at 1.5m/s but dip down towards 1.2m/s as they pass the 2.25m/s mark


Yes, this behaviour can be confirmed, although 2.25m/s mark would have to be re-validated. It also has to do with the amount of acceleration involved whether you get the 1.5 plateau or 1.5->1.2 dip or so my MouseTester results have me believe.
That's however still not "malfunction" in the sense that it becomes entirely unusable at those speeds, which is what modern sensors do (at the speeds they malfunction at, naturally).


----------



## qsxcv

up to around 2m/s it's definitely still usable, but beyond it's annoying because you can actually feel the tracking slow down or skip a bit before picking back up.

also the graphs don't necessarily correspond to what we see in mousetester when doing actual real swipes. there's quite a difference between swiping around 2.5m/s for 100ms vs a wheel which spins at a near constant 2.5m/s for a much longer period of time.


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> also the graphs don't necessarily correspond to what we see in mousetester when doing actual real swipes. there's quite a difference between swiping around 2.5m/s for 100ms vs a wheel which spins at a near constant 2.5m/s for a much longer period of time.


Definitely. I'm not trying to discredit that mousescore graph either; it's probably pretty accurate. Just that in practice the mouse does not become unusable at 1.5m/s. It doesn't report perfectly anymore (which at constant >2m/s on that plate could result in counts dropping, for the few miliseconds you hit those speeds with your hand however counts do not drop below the 1.5m/s cap) but it still does report reasonably. As I said, this was probably mainly about semantics. That drop-off we see in that graph may be indicative of a "technological weakness" in the correlation technique when we look at array size and framerate, but in practice this thing simply still functions acceptably well beyond 1.5m/s, i. e. it doesn't mal-function.


----------



## RDno1

That escalated quickly.


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uhm 3050 has good m/s as well
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/300_100#post_24408907
> 
> it's technically weak, cheap, and low end but that doesn't mean it's bad.
> just to play devil's advocate, here's my biased comparison of 3050 and 3310
> 
> framerate:
> 3050: stable 6666; 3310: speed-dependent values of 2080, 4100, 6500
> 
> smoothing:
> 3050: none; 3310: 4ms
> 
> variance:
> 3050: probably not bad; 3310: inherits some of 9500/9800 architecture's variance issues.
> 
> dpi:
> who needs >500 dpi anyway?
> 
> tracking speed:
> 3050: >=4m/s; 3310: 6-7m/s
> it's very rare to actually need those speeds in-game


so 3050 seems to be better, no smoothing,higher stable framerate, ~3.5m/s tracking speed is fine too for me. ....
That smoothing on 3310, 3988 is sometimes weired for me


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> biased comparison


i have no doubt 3310 is superior in certain other areas


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 5bits or 6bits seems like an unusual format
> 
> do you have any mousetester results showing 32 counts or even 31? highest i've seen is 29 iirc... i'll check again now.
> 
> but i think it's because 30 = 3 * 10, where 3 is the maximum search distance and 10 is the maximum possible number of frames in 1ms since it runs slightly above 9000fps


So why do you think it does this? Setting the search distance as low I mean. Modern sensors regularly extract more data from less frames, do they use fundamentally different correlation techniques?


----------



## MrKoala

Totally uneducated guess, but the binary sensor might generate a much more noisy signal than modern gray scale sensors. To achieve good statistical certainty they had to enforce much larger overlap. If the search distance was as high as modern ones, too much of the image would be cropped out by the motion.


----------



## wareya

What he said.


----------



## HAGGARD

Surely ~9kfps 3 counts/frame are not the limits of binary sensors though? Larger arrays allow for larger offsets, higher framerates aren't impossible either. How was the binary nature of the MLT04 even confirmed? If THAT is what is unique about it compared to modern sensors I wonder why the industry collectively (well, Avago I guess) strayed away from that to begin with. Or do you reckon with the MLT04 technologically the signal/noise limits of binary correlation have been met?


----------



## wareya

Basically, a grayscale sensor lets image correlation get tens or maybe even a hundred levels of movement out of a couple pixels. (this is how the 3310 has such a granular configurable native DPI)

Wheras with a binary sensor you need many more pixels for the same granularity of levels of movement.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> How was the binary nature of the MLT04 even confirmed?


I don't even know if it has, but we know that there are both binary and grayscale sensors, and we know that the 3366 is grayscale.

We know that the MLT04 caps out at a given speed and has more jitter at that speed than an equivalent grayscale sensor would. It's an easy assumption to make, but if we ever know for sure whether it's binary or grayscale, that would be great.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> Or do you reckon with the MLT04 technologically the signal/noise limits of binary correlation have been met?


Positively. If it is one, of course.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Surely ~9kfps 3 counts/frame are not the limits of binary sensors though? Larger arrays allow for larger offsets, higher framerates aren't impossible either. How was the binary nature of the MLT04 even confirmed? If THAT is what is unique about it compared to modern sensors I wonder why the industry collectively (well, Avago I guess) strayed away from that to begin with. Or do you reckon with the MLT04 technologically the signal/noise limits of binary correlation have been met?


i really doubt that mlt04 or any sensor is binary... at the first analog-to-digital step for sure it's not binary since it would be impossible to set a threshold which works on a variety of surfaces. the dsp could convert the grayscale image to whatever, but who knows.

i think this is what's going on (not just for mlt04; for all ics sensors). consider one dimension only for now; the generalization to 2d is trivial
for each new frame, the dsp calculates correlations against a reference frame from the past. it shifts the new frame by -3 pixels , calculates the correlation, -2, calculates again, -1, calculates again,... up to 3.
so then we get some data for the correlations

suppose it looks like this:
shift correlation
-3 0.123
-2 0.321
-1 0.213
0 0.987
1 0.231
2 0.132
3 0.312

clearly there's a peak at 0, which would mean that the current frame is the most similar to the reference frame; i.e. no motion.

if the data look like this:
shift correlation
-3 0.123
-2 0.321
-1 0.213
0 0.234
1 0.231
2 0.876
3 0.312

the peak is at 2, which would mean there's -2 pixels of motion.

there also must be some weighting of the neighboring data points, because if the actual motion corresponds to 1.6 pxiels of motion, the data could look like
shift correlation
-3 0.123
-2 0.321
-1 0.213
0 0.234
1 0.456
2 0.678
3 0.312
while the peak is at 2, there is significant correlation at 1 still. the dsp must take both these points into account; otherwise the sensor would have huge variance.

and of course if the actual motion is more than 3 pixels of motion, all the correlations are pretty low.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> >for each new frame, the dsp calculates correlations against a reference frame from the past.


yeah that's basically how it works

some of the details of implementation are different though

for example, at least with modern sensors, they do this:

They start by shifting the comparing image over by however fast the mouse was moving last frame (as far as I can tell, this is the real definition of prediction. to laymen: _this is not angle snapping or any other kind of sensor flaw_, don't be confused by the terminology)

then they do a 3x3 grid of correlations around and including that point

the "height" of the resulting 3x3 grid of correlations can have the peak on or between a set of pixels, or past them beyond the entire slope. In the latter case, they add more correlation buckets in the direction that the slope points towards the peak.



this is computationally cheaper than going more than a single pixel away from the expected correlation by default, but it changes that the time that the correlation function takes from frame to frame, and it's not useful if you're extremely far away from the peak (because you'll have nearly no correlation)

One of the patents that I read described something like this as an existing work

finally, noise affects all of this, doing interpolation to get a more precise location of the peak brings out the noise in a given frame (causes jitter), and if you don't interpolate then you can use the "more-peak-like" peaks on the correlation grid and get a deviation between your math and your output, which you can add to later frames so that speed over time is more reliable


----------



## kicksome

What have I just walked into


----------



## delledonne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> What have I just walked into


Not a Rival 100 thread anymore

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## kicksome

so has anyone got their hands on one yet?
im interested to see how much it weighs, should be on the fairly light side you would think


----------



## MrKoala

Can't be sure about the Rival, but the OEM version is ~90g without cable according to some Chinese reviews. There's a small piece of weight in the OEM version.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i really doubt that mlt04 or any sensor is binary... at the first analog-to-digital step for sure it's not binary since it would be impossible to set a threshold which works on a variety of surfaces. the dsp could convert the grayscale image to whatever, but who knows.
> ...


I was wondering as well. Maybe adaptive exposure?


----------



## ramraze

Swedish webhallen has it in stock now. Wonder why there isn't anything on youtube yet.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Swedish webhallen has it in stock now. Wonder why there isn't anything on youtube yet.


Been in stock in Sweden since Friday, waiting for some feedback but no one seems to want to try it first


----------



## Aventadoor

Dustinhome got it aswell now, yet its not on steelseries webpage... lol


----------



## Sencha

del


----------



## dzlDave

Kinzu V3, Rival 100, Kana V2, Rival

To be honest the Rival 100 has shape of an Ambidex mouse(even though I said its more Ergo shape earlier), but its only buttons on left side for righthanded usage


----------



## wareya

so it's an ergo mouse with an ambi shape

basically, a fallback for lefthanders that _really_ want to use the mouse, and don't mind the buttons being on the wrong side


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> 
> 
> Kinzu V3, Rival 100, Kana V2, Rival
> 
> To be honest the Rival 100 has shape of an Ambidex mouse(even though I said its more Ergo shape earlier), but its only buttons on left side for righthanded usage


I still think it's easier to make a "Sensei Optical" with 70~80g and a 3310 or with a 3988.
Oh, and with a good scrollwheel.


----------



## trism

Is the size closer to the Kinzu or the Kana? The picture doesn't really show the difference that well. Looks good though. Now we just need to wait for someone to post some mousetester plots and some individual subjective opinions about the performance.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> I still think it's easier to make a "Sensei Optical" with 70~80g and a 3310 or with a 3988.


3310 pls, if the 3988 has similar sensor logic to the 3888 then it should have angle snagging problems http://www.overclock.net/t/1562793/zowie-g-sr-review-by-ino-updated-with-dark-grey-version/80#post_24329661


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> Kinzu V3, Rival 100, Kana V2, Rival
> 
> To be honest the Rival 100 has shape of an Ambidex mouse(even though I said its more Ergo shape earlier), but its only buttons on left side for righthanded usage


Those Rival mice look so cheap. I thought the Kana looked cheap, but next to those Rival mice...

They should have made the mouse a subtle right handed shape since there is no right side buttons. A lot of people don't like the extreme shape of the Rival.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> 3310 pls, if the 3988 has similar sensor logic to the 3888 then it should have angle snagging problems http://www.overclock.net/t/1562793/zowie-g-sr-review-by-ino-updated-with-dark-grey-version/80#post_24329661


Other LED CMOS sensor mice exhibited such behavior on mouse pads with graphics. The Zowie 3090 mice were very picky.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> 3310 pls, if the 3988 has similar sensor logic to the 3888 then it should have angle snagging problems http://www.overclock.net/t/1562793/zowie-g-sr-review-by-ino-updated-with-dark-grey-version/80#post_24329661


3988 and 3310 are from 9800 family
3888 is similar to 3090


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Is the size closer to the Kinzu or the Kana? The picture doesn't really show the difference that well. Looks good though. Now we just need to wait for someone to post some mousetester plots and some individual subjective opinions about the performance.


its in between Kinzu and Kana...~1-2 mm shorter than Kana and -1m on the width. More similar to Kana than Kinzu I would say anyway also in shape.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Those Rival mice look so cheap. I thought the Kana looked cheap, but next to those Rival mice....


It is cheap







...39,99€ compared to standard Rival 69,99€


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> It is cheap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...39,99€ compared to standard Rival 69,99€


I was referring to the design. The Rival mice look cheaper to produce than a Kinzu or Xai/Sensei.


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I was referring to the design. The Rival mice look cheaper to produce than a Kinzu or Xai/Sensei.


I would say Rival 100 feels more premium than Kinzu but Sensei/Xai is more premium than Rival 100.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> I would say Rival 100 feels more premium than Kinzu but Sensei/Xai is more premium than Rival 100.


the size and shape look good, price point seems ok for what it is (hey, its not a $90 diamondback!). im going to pick one up. any ETA on a release in the US? days, weeks, months?


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelseriesDave*
> 
> It is cheap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...39,99€ compared to standard Rival 69,99€


So it means that in a few months we'll be seeing it for less than 30$?

http://www.amazon.com/Steelseries-1000HZ-50-6500-Coating-Optical/dp/B00Q1HFIXK/ref=sr_1_2?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1443562844&sr=1-2&keywords=Steelseries+Rival
http://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Rival-Optical-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00G6IJ5QK/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1443562844&sr=1-1&keywords=Steelseries+Rival

I still think there's no need to use a custom version of the 3050 (or a public AM010? can't remember) in this mouse. Could you explain to me, marketing wise, why would you do that? And also release a new shape?
I know a lot of people that loves the Sensei/Xai, but instead they use a FK1/2 or even a Newmen GX1 Pro because of the sensor in the Sensei/Xai. I still don't know why Steelseries has been against the idea of an Optical Sensei/XAI for such a long time...


----------



## kicksome

I hope it's nice and light weight, anything under 90g


----------



## auzcar

I have one in my hands at work right now, haven't played anything with it yet, only used it at work for about an hour. The shape is really nice but it's just too small, I'm 99% sure this will cramp my hand like crazy when I start playing, just like the FK1 does.

- Clicks are really nice, pretty similar to the Rival
- Sides are not rubber but hard plastic
- Personally I like the scroll wheel a lot
- DPI steps are 250 > 500 > 1000... didn't really check where it went from there

It's a pity this isn't bigger, it could've been really good for me.

To hell with you Steelseries, you stupid bastards...


----------



## Nivity

It being small is just the thing I am after, but it does not seem to small.
It's the size of Kana v2 which is almost to big for me ;O

Shame if it lacks 800dpi step since that is what I prefer to use.


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auzcar*
> 
> I have one in my hands at work right now, haven't played anything with it yet, only used it at work for about an hour. The shape is really nice but it's just too small, I'm 99% sure this will cramp my hand like crazy when I start playing, just like the FK1 does.
> 
> - Clicks are really nice, pretty similar to the Rival
> - Sides are not rubber but hard plastic
> - Personally I like the scroll wheel a lot
> - DPI steps are 250 > 500 > 1000... didn't really check where it went from there
> 
> It's a pity this isn't bigger, it could've been really good for me.
> 
> To hell with you Steelseries, you stupid bastards...


Is it smooth plastic sides or rubber the horrible plastic feeling rubber again?


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auzcar*
> 
> I have one in my hands at work right now, haven't played anything with it yet, only used it at work for about an hour. The shape is really nice but it's just too small, I'm 99% sure this will cramp my hand like crazy when I start playing, just like the FK1 does.
> 
> - Clicks are really nice, pretty similar to the Rival
> - Sides are not rubber but hard plastic
> - Personally I like the scroll wheel a lot
> - DPI steps are 250 > 500 > 1000... didn't really check where it went from there
> 
> It's a pity this isn't bigger, it could've been really good for me.
> 
> To hell with you Steelseries, you stupid bastards...


Can you measure the mouse size dimensions.


----------



## auzcar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Is it smooth plastic sides or rubber the horrible plastic feeling rubber again?


It's smooth inbetween the knobs but the tops of the knobs are more rough, IE like they'd been sanded.

EDIT: It's still hard plastic though, in other words not good for sweaty hands. Personally I like a more rubberized coating all over since I tend to sweat a lot.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Can you measure the mouse size dimensions.


Will do when I get home tonight!


----------



## kicksome

Any other pics would be nice if you cbf


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Shame if it lacks 800dpi step since that is what I prefer to use.


It's a 3050. It doesn't have a 800 step because the array is 19x19. I suggest not using anything above 500.


----------



## MrKoala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> So why do you think it does this? Setting the search distance as low I mean. Modern sensors regularly extract more data from less frames, do they use fundamentally different correlation techniques?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> ...
> They start by shifting the comparing image over by however fast the mouse was moving last frame (as far as I can tell, this is the real definition of prediction. to laymen: _this is not angle snapping or any other kind of sensor flaw_, don't be confused by the terminology)
> ...


Still uneducated guess, but it suddenly occurred to me that MLT04 might be doing no prediction at all. All correlation attempts are independent.

This would explain 3 things:
The sensors needs to work at a higher frame rate than modern ones, but comes with lower resolution and perfect tracking speed.
Its malfunction behavior is more predictable than modern ones, with the output failing down and scatter gracefully instead of sudden plummeting or skyrocketing.
It recovers instantly after malfunction once speed drops back, unlike modern ones that freak out and won't recover until a full stop.

So a simple brute force solution has worse peak performance but better consistency.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auzcar*
> 
> It's smooth inbetween the knobs but the tops of the knobs are more rough, IE like they'd been sanded.
> 
> EDIT: It's still hard plastic though, in other words not good for sweaty hands. Personally I like a more rubberized coating all over since I tend to sweat a lot.
> Will do when I get home tonight!


Can you also post pics of the bottom of the mouse?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Can you also post pics of the bottom of the mouse?


???

http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/360_30#post_24447339


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> ???
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/360_30#post_24447339


Pretty sure that's not the Rival 100 but the chinese Rival with PMW3320. Or this one:

http://img.dgtle.com/forum/201508/18/181013dg7hm8hqqcg7ghjz.jpg!960px


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Pretty sure that's not the Rival 100 but the chinese Rival with PMW3320. Or this one:
> 
> http://img.dgtle.com/forum/201508/18/181013dg7hm8hqqcg7ghjz.jpg!960px


Yeah. That looks like the fuhlen CO300.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It's a 3050. It doesn't have a 800 step because the array is 19x19. I suggest not using anything above 500.


array size doesnt dictate possible cpi steps.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Shame if it lacks 800dpi step since that is what I prefer to use.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a 3050. It doesn't have a 800 step because the array is 19x19. I suggest not using anything above 500.
Click to expand...

Well, if 1000dpi is garbage then the mouse is not worth my trouble








500dpi is impossible to use, way to low.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> array size doesnt dictate possible cpi steps.


bigger array = less jitter


----------



## zeflow

What's funny is they still haven't put this on their website or sent any units out for reviews...great job steelseries marketing team.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> bigger array = less jitter


And here i thought that the point it was about can be found out by the context....


----------



## aerowalk30

It's a shame its probably going to weigh as much as the Kana / Sensei, absolute deal-breaker.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> array size doesnt dictate possible cpi steps.


Going over 500 CPI with the 3050 is going to bring down the performance further.

The 3090 is a 30x30 sensor. The natural CPI is 900, which is then reduced by sensor height.

People are used to the 3090 architecture. The 3050 isn't going to give you that regardless of coding.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> What's funny is they still haven't put this on their website or sent any units out for reviews...great job steelseries marketing team.


It's a cheap mouse. It's not a good idea to waste money on marketing it.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Going over 500 CPI with the 3050 is going to bring down the performance further.
> 
> The 3090 is a 30x30 sensor. The natural CPI is 900, which is then reduced by sensor height.
> 
> People are used to the 3090 architecture. The 3050 isn't going to give you that regardless of coding.
> It's a cheap mouse. It's not a good idea to waste money on marketing it.


......


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It's a cheap mouse. It's not a good idea to waste money on marketing it.


It's a cheap mouse, therefor it would cost them practically nothing to get the mouse out for reviews, and to not have it on their website at this point is just silly.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The 3090 is a 30x30 sensor. The natural CPI is 900, which is then reduced by sensor height.


30 is a unitless number.
you dont pull out a unit of 1/inches out of thin air

the number of pixels in an array does not affect resolution at all. as in you can build a sensor that's 2x the physical size of everything in the 3090 and it's base cpi would be halved

actual cpi depends on pixel density*lens magnification*scaling.

pixel number only affects it indirectly, as with more pixels you scale more


----------



## wareya

inb4 "what if there's no scaling"

Scaling is an intrinsic part of how ICS sensors work. If they didn't scale you would have several thousand DPI and tons and tons of jitter. They scale down to hide jitter, i.e., make desktop usage viable.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

So apparently going over 500dpi with a 3050 based mouse will make it explode.

Actually is there any consensus on what has been the best 3050 implementation so far?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Actually is there any consensus on what has been the best 3050 implementation so far?


Let's just hope this mouse brings the best implementation...


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> So apparently going over 500dpi with a 3050 based mouse will make it explode.
> 
> Actually is there any consensus on what has been the best 3050 implementation so far?


i would guess logitech's


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Well the G300 had a ******ed sensor position. So that would leave the G100 then?


----------



## qsxcv

well it's just a guess given that logitech usually does (the technical) things sanely.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> ......


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 30 is a unitless number.
> you dont pull out a unit of 1/inches out of thin air
> 
> the number of pixels in an array does not affect resolution at all. as in you can build a sensor that's 2x the physical size of everything in the 3090 and it's base cpi would be halved
> 
> actual cpi depends on pixel density*lens magnification*scaling.
> 
> pixel number only affects it indirectly, as with more pixels you scale more


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> So apparently going over 500dpi with a 3050 based mouse will make it explode.
> 
> Actually is there any consensus on what has been the best 3050 implementation so far?


http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Avago%20PDFs/ADNS-3050.pdf
Quote:


> Note: As the sensor resolution increases, slight performance degradation on certain surfaces may be observed. For higher than 500 dpi setting, use 12-bit motion reporting to achieve the maximum speed.


Is that the same for the ADNS-3090?

You won't get the same performance as a 3090 at the same CPI. That is my point.

From what I heard, the 3050 is problematic past 500 CPI.


----------



## qsxcv

what the datasheet is means is that beyond 500dpi, the perfect control speed of the sensor is likely limited by the 8bit motion registers since counts are limited to -128 to +127 each time the mcu reads motion (aka this issue: http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=4, see how the response plateaus for 125hz). in the 12bit mode the limitation is -2048 to +2047, and the sensor itself will malfunction before it exceeds the range of the the motion registers.

3090 only has an 8bit mode, so it always suffers from this issue. e.g. do a fast swipe with a 3090 mouse set to 4000dpi and see what happens.

30x30=900 does not mean 3090's base cpi is 900


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> From what I heard,


There found the problem.


----------



## qsxcv

well i think it's pretty plausible that there'd be visible jitter at 1000dpi for 3050. 750 may be tolerable though. i assume 500 is the base cpi?


----------



## wareya

using some of the sensor images that qlettersv got from the 3366, I once did correlation by hand in an image editor and got a difference in correlation of 16384 across the entire image for moving the whole thing by a single pixel (I forgot if this was diagonal or not)

divide that in 2 because the 3366 was spitting out 7-bit data for some reason (instead of 8-bit) and we have 8192 levels for a single pixel of movement

Sensor resolution would affect DPI but the numbers that the sensor gets out of the correlation function are so absurdly high in the first place that *every* sensor scales down the values in some way before sending them to the MCU or whatever.

supposing that the 3050 has the same bitdepth and coverage, the scaling difference for them for the same dpi should be around 2.1x (40 vs 19 pixels wide)

someone on the logitech forums once wrote "Pixart 3366 sensor is native at ALL DPI settings. However its only jitter free up to ~3600 DPI, so don't go above that. Once you reach 4000+ DPI, you start getting jitter."

3600/2.1 is ~1700

Supposing that the 3050 is significantly inferior in other areas relating to jitter, that 1700 can easily be cut in half (for example, if the illumination is poor, or the shutter time is too short, or the sensor just picks up more outside noise)

i should really write a correlation simulation software as a learning experience....


----------



## qsxcv

16384=2^14...? if you have it still could you show your work/equations? there's quite a few ways to go about doing it.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 16384=2^14...? if you have it still could you show your work/equations? there's quite a few ways to go about doing it.


there are 1600 pixels capable of 256(128 actually for some reason) levels of brightness so it's not that absurd

I think I used this image http://i.imgur.com/9kBcSbg.png

The first step of correlation is an unsigned difference filter and the second is accumulating the resulting difference pixels together, but I was lazy so I just blurred the difference image altogether and multiplied by the number of pixels. should only give a quantization error of half the number of pixels as a number of correlation levels though

because different surfaces have different levels of noise and contrast, if they just outputed certain things verbatim, it would make surfaces with less contrast output less decorrelation from the "center" pixel. So for grayscale sensors they definitely normalize the correlation array in some way before outputting the distance of the apparent decorrelation peak from the center pixel into their scaling buffer (otherwise they would need to use interpolation or line math to find the apparent peak, which is an approximation and introduces more artefacts). And if they don't use a scaling buffer but use a series of deadzone checks and don't throw away the memory image until a single pixel of movement is achieved instead, then they might not need to normalize the correlation array, but I'm not sure, they might need to do some scaling on a value that's both tied to surface properties and necessary to avoid being locked at integer pixels of movement for a given speed (but I have a hunch that this type of sample handling responds poorly for image rotations or high noise floors -- but who knows! it might be the other way around, or totally not important at all)

I'm quite tired so it's possible that this post has a logic mistake in it.


----------



## qsxcv

uh isn't the procedure like
<

below is (reasonable) speculation

>
shift by (rounded) previous frame's motion counts
calculate correlation
shift by a pixel
calculate correlation
shift again
etc...

and then you'll have (like discussed previously) a 3x3 or whatever matrix of correlation values. the question is how to combine the values in the matrix to figure out where the "peak" is with sub-pixel accuracy.
e.g. if the matrix looks like
0.0 0.0 0.0
0.0 0.0 1.0
0.0 0.0 0.0
then obviously the peak is at (1,0)

but if it looks (more realistically) like
0.0 0.2 0.4
0.1 0.4 0.8
0.1 0.0 0.1
then the peak is probably actually something around (0.7, 0.7)
and then you add (0.7,0.7) to the previous frame's motion counts to get the current frame's counts.

the question is how to calculate the (0.7, 0.7) or whatever. i strongly suspect that not doing this correctly is the reason for the variance issues in the 9500/9800/3310/3988 family

on an undetailed surface or when the lens is unfocused, the peak would be blurrier so that would complicate things. it wouldn't be surprising if the dsp applied a high-pass or edge detection filter to the images before the correlation process to minimize the effects of things like illumination uniformity.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> the question is how to calculate the (0.7, 0.7) or whatever.


Let's say that our "most correlated" pixel should be 0, and that levels of "not being correlated" are positives further away from that (this is how it goes)

if your array is:

0.25 0.25 0.50
0.25 0.25 0.50
0.50 0.50 0.75

then looking at it you intuitively know that the area of most correlation should be (-0.5, 0.5) from the center pixel, right?

But practically speaking, you can't just find out where the 0.5, 0.5 is. The correlation array is going to have noise that messes with the math necessary to find that, and doing some kind of denoising filter on the correlation array is impractical because of a specific set of problems:

1) The correlation array is effectively the max() function between four planes, but we only have nine rasters. Without already knowing where the peak is, you only have enough points to determine the slopes of two of those planes with any reliability.
2) The correlation array already has a noise floor that literally lifts all the points, even a perfectly centered one, up away from "100% correlation" because the sensor images have noise on them. And because surfaces have different contrast, you can't use the edge pixels to figure it out.
3) You can't add more pixels to the correlation array because surfaces made up of primarily high frequency content have an elbow curve starting at a full pixel of difference. (Actually there should be a way to work around this by making the logic more complicated, but patents don't seem to describe doing so, so I'm going to assume that they don't do this EDIT: Nope, not possible)

So you both don't know the noise floor to build the planes that you could use to approximate the location, and you aren't capable of (or for some other reason, don't do) using more information to do it. Anything that you do will be a cruddy approximation at best.

Now, what you have to do is look in the direction that the correlation array is going, and invert everything that you know to be past the approximate peak. On both axes.

0.25 -0.25 -0.50
-0.25 0.25 0.50
-0.50 0.50 0.75

Now the noise floor issue is cancelled out by having two positive and two negative parts in the top left corner. You can add them together in pairs here, and no matter what (sane things) you do, you'll get 0 as a result. With this method, 0 corresponds to 0.5 pixels of movement, because you inverted the planes around the half-pixel point.

I'm going to step through an example that explains how this is useful.

0.75 0.50 0.75
0.50 0.25 0.50
0.75 0.50 0.75

Here, the peak is obviously in the center (with a perfect, jitterless noise floor) so let's just pretend that it gives priority to putting the inversion in the top left half-pixel location.

_0.75 -0.50_ -0.75
*-0.50 0.25* 0.50
-0.75 0.50 0.75

(markup added to indicate pairs)

when you add the pairs of points together: (-0.50+0.25) and (0.75+-0.50), they give -0.25 and 0.25 as the results. The one passing through the center raster, (-0.50+0.25), is negative, which tells us which side the peak is on. The added-together absolute magnitude of the two results [actually you might want to use only the one that's closer to the peak because reasons], 0.5, gives us the distance from our inversion point (which is the top-left half pixel) to where the actual center is.

And you do this for both axes.

The only issue left is calibrating to make sure image contrast doesn't affect DPI, but I'm sure there's a way to do that.

For reference, I have no idea whether this actually works. It just seems perfectly viable. I've never brutally verified it using real data.

EDIT: Scratched out some notes and putting this here:

X.XX X.XX X.XX X.XX X.XX
X.XX 0.65 0.40 0.85 X.XX
X.XX 0.40 0.35 0.60 X.XX
X.XX 0.85 0.60 0.85 X.XX
X.XX X.XX X.XX X.XX X.XX

On an imaginary correlation array where the peak is between the 0.65 and 0.35, but closer to the 0.35, the marked rasters will be "legged" by high frequency information, and can't be used for doing anything but figuring out where the general location of the peak is, because they're more than 1 pixel in box distance away from the true peak. X.XX are false rasters that could theoretically be used if the image data was entirely low frequency (with the bottom and right edges needing the information to be even lower frequency)

EDIT2: Added 0.65 to the set of marked rasters because I remembered about the checkerboard scenario.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> You won't get the same performance as a 3090 at the same CPI. That is my point.


No, your point was that 800cpi are not possible due to the array.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It's a 3050. It doesn't have a 800 step because the array is 19x19. I suggest not using anything above 500.


----------



## wareya

The "I suggest not using anything above 500." indicates that he thinks it's technically possible, but a bad idea.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> The "I suggest not using anything above 500." indicates that he thinks it's technically possible, but a bad idea.


"It doesn't have a 800 step because the array is 19x19." is absolute.


----------



## wareya

It doesn't absolutely indicate what you think it absolutely indicates. It absolutely indicates that the image resolution is the cause for the low DPI. It does not indicate that that is an absolute restriction. It only indicates that the relationship is absolute, not that the relationship is absolutely necessary.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> It doesn't absolutely indicate what you think it absolutely indicates. It absolutely indicates that the image resolution is the cause for the low DPI. It does not indicate that that is an absolute restriction. It only indicates that the relationship is absolute, not that the relationship is absolutely necessary.


Low CPI are nearly completely irrelevant to the topic.


----------



## wareya

The statement is LITERALLY about the sensor resolution controlling the useful DPI.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> The statement is LITERALLY about the sensor resolution controlling the useful DPI.


No, he wrote "It doesn't have a 800 step because the array is 19x19."

And that is just simply wrong, where is the problem with understanding that?

Edit: It doesnt matter if it is useful or not, and those are two separate issues and two different sentences in the mentioned post.


----------



## wareya

Look, I know you don't understand the nuance of him splitting his statement into two different sentences with two different actors and verbs, but you really cannot keep pushing this point for any valid reason. You are deliberately insisting that the only possible meaning of what he said is the one that's wrong, when there are other perfectly viable meanings that actually match the nuance of the specific words and grammatical structures that he used.

A 800 step is a DPI. DPI is part of the discussion. That isn't even a point to be made.

There's no point in talking about this whatsoever. Stop railing on his statement.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Look, I know you don't understand the nuance of him splitting his statement into two different sentences with two different actors and verbs, but you really cannot keep pushing this point for any valid reason. You are deliberately insisting that the only possible meaning of what he said is the one that's wrong, when there are other perfectly viable meanings that actually match the nuance of the specific words and grammatical structures that he used.
> 
> A 800 step is a DPI. DPI is part of the discussion. That isn't even a point to be made.
> 
> There's no point in talking about this whatsoever. Stop railing on his statement.


Why not leave it to him to refute what i wrote? Not recommending anything above 500cpi due to cursor path, and stating that A3050 doesnt have a 800CPI Step due to Array Size are two different things and no matter how you turn it, 19*19 array size doesnt mean that there cant be a 800CPI Step. Im at the point where i even question if you know what CPI Steps A3050 offers.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Why not leave it to him to refute what i wrote?


Because a bad response to a bad statement is still bad? I've already responded negatively to a lot of the things he's said, but I'm courteous enough to not assume the worst case scenario for everything he says.
Quote:


> Not recommending anything above 500cpi due to cursor path, and stating that A3050 doesnt have a 800CPI Step due to Array Size are two different things and no matter how you turn it


Okay, you clearly insist on not accepting the way that he was using "because", so I'm going to stop here.
Quote:


> Im at the point where i even question if you know what CPI Steps A3050 offers.


Various ones above and below 800, but not 800. Correct me if I'm wrong and it has a 800 step instead of a 1000 step.


----------



## qsxcv

^who cares stop arguing over nothing
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> The only issue left is calibrating to make sure image contrast doesn't affect DPI, but I'm sure there's a way to do that.
> 
> For reference, I have no idea whether this actually works. It just seems perfectly viable.


uhhh correlation is kind of defined as 0 = no correlation, 1 = perfect match

the weakness to the approach is that you only directly involve 4 of the points into the calculation. it's basically equivalent to a center of "mass" calculation (i think...) for the 4 points you select except without dividing by the total "mass" (which is why you have normalization issues)

of course a straightforward improvement to this method would be to calculate the center of "mass" for all 9 points, but that'd only work well if the (actual peak) is close to the center point, which in general is not the case. otherwise you'd get bias depending on how focused the image is. e.g. if the actual peak is at 1 (consider 1D for simplicity)

the total cross correlation function could be like this (bold indicates peak point)
0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.2 *0.8* 0.2 0.1 0.0
or like this if the focus is worse or there are fewer high freq details on the surface
0.0 0.0 0.1 0.2 0.4 *0.7* 0.4 0.2 0.1

but since we're only looking at a 3x3 region (or just 3 since 1d) it looks like this

0.1 0.2 *0.8*
or
0.2 0.4 *0.7*
clearly in the second case the apparent peak is closer to 0, even though we know the actual peak is at one, as seen by the symmetry in the total cross correlation


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uhhh correlation is kind of defined as 0 = no correlation, 1 = perfect match


But it's actually decorrelation, because you can't have infinite correlation (or, even if you define it that way, it's computationally useless), but you can have arbitrary magnitudes of decorrelation. So "0 = identical" must be the reference point.

Also when you subtract an image from itself... All the points are 0. And subtracting images from eachother is how the correlation array is generated.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the weakness to the approach is that you only directly involve 4 of the points into the calculation. it's basically equivalent to a center of "mass" calculation (i think...) for the 4 points you select except without dividing by the total "mass" (which is why you have normalization issues)


Well you have have to normalize things somehow no matter what you do simply because the noise floor and contrast both change on a moment to moment basis. Noise floor is affected by rotation and motion blur, contrast is affected by where on the surface you are and what surface you're on.

If you didn't have to worry about the noise floor or contrast it would be trivial. But you have to deal with both at the same time so you have to work around their presence.

And only involving 4 points into the calculation is actually ideal because using anything but the three points that the peak overlaps will lead to acceleration or variance problems on surfaces with a lot of high frequency noise. (the reason it's three instead of four is because of the checkerboard problem) Of course by using only two rasters to divine the location of the peak on that axis increases jitter, but jitter is always better than acceleration/variance.


----------



## qsxcv

well that's another way to do things. i was thinking of correlation in the normal sense i.e. covariance/(stdev_x*stdev_y)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_and_dependence#Pearson.27s_product-moment_coefficient


----------



## wareya

"I have no idea what I'm reading" - me


----------



## qsxcv

uh it's pretty clear if you know what the summation notation means...? it's the same correlation that you see from linear regression/line fits
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> And only involving 4 points into the calculation is actually ideal because using anything but the three points that the peak overlaps will lead to acceleration or variance problems on surfaces with a lot of high frequency noise.


the peak may overlap more than the nearest 4 points... especially for pads which have low frequency details/shapes (e.g. find my pictures of logitech g240)


----------



## wareya

I dropped out of highschool because of abuse, so I don't know all that terminology or notation. I could read up on it, but I rarely run into it, and I wouldn't have anything better to say about it than you do.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the peak may overlap more than the nearest 4 points... especially for pads which have low frequency details/shapes (e.g. find my pictures of logitech g240)


It shouldn't overlap that many points. If you had infinite precision, there would be exactly one alignment with the highest correlation -- not a general area or some kind of ring -- as long as you're not comparing repeating patterns or weird pathological case images like a dot and an outline. The center prediction takes care of the repeating patterns problem.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Okay, you clearly insist on not accepting the way that he was using "because", so I'm going to stop here.


And that "because" is exactly the problem, "Symptome(no 800cpi Step) because Reason(Array)", but if the reason is wrong then it simply is wrong. ^^ As said, these are two separate issues.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Various ones above and below 800, but not 800.


Exactly, but not because of the array(altough we are kind of in a greyzone regarding that with 3050). And it doesnt matter what is useful or not, given access you can make it go whatever the hell you want, doesnt matter if i have something like *16 or something that enables me to have steps of 50.

Or to make it really easy, CPI´s dont have to be multiples of the array.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> ^who cares stop arguing over nothing


And goes full on nerd in the same post. :>


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> And goes full on nerd in the same post. :>


oh no that's only 2% of it


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> There found the problem.


So do I ignore the reviews of 3050 mice and prototype/beta users?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> No, your point was that 800cpi are not possible due to the array.


Seems like you got upset with me from another post unrelated to this. Now you want to put words in my mouth and argue.

I been around for years. I generally know how these sensors and companies work..

The 3090 architecture originally was ~900 CPI, then became 1800 and so on. The way Avago decided to scale the 3090 was based on the array/resolution. If the 3050 was to scale the same way there wouldn't be a 800/900 setting.

I understand that PixArt can implement a 800 CPI step if they so choose, yet they don't want to. My statements are simply based on how Avago did things, not what they could have done.


----------



## wareya

So I think the acceleration/variance problems in http://sousuch.web.fc2.com/DIY/mouse_senor/index.html are probably caused by being unable to normalize properly

you can't necessarily use vertical data to divine the normalization for horizontal data, because motion blur affects the de/correlation floor... which means that you only have the horizontal strip in the center to use if you're making a horizontal movement (even if you used vertical data you would mess up with perfectly diagonal movements)

Yet with high frequency data, the distal point from the peak will have a decorrelation leg/curve (moire problem), which would cause variance problems when you go to normalize.

if only we could work on oversampled data we could use more points near the peak

you can't just change the focus because that affects surface compatibility in weird ways (inner layers of the surface)

Keep focus the same, have denser sensor rasters, do a 5x5 grid of correlations?

Or you could randomize the frame timings within a certain range to be mastur trole engineer.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The 3090 is a 30x30 sensor. The natural CPI is 900, which is then reduced by sensor height.


uh i think woll3 and i interpreted what you said as saying a 30x30 array (i.e. 900 pixels) is somehow related to how 900cpi is a special value for 3090. if 900cpi is a special value for 3090, that's not at all related to how there are 900 pixels.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uh i think woll3 and i interpreted what you said as saying a 30x30 array (i.e. 900 pixels) is somehow related to how 900cpi is a special value for 3090. if 900cpi is a special value for 3090, that's not at all related to how there are 900 pixels.


Is there a relationship between array and cpi at all? How does this really work? Any idea where I can read up on the technical side of image correlation sensors? Something like "Optical Sensors for Dummies"?

On topic, you can pre-order the mouse on some German websites, but the release date seems pretty far back. Looks like Sweden is first on SteelSeries' list.


----------



## MrKoala

There could be, depending on the algorithm used, but it's related to the absolute size of pixels and optical zoom, not how many pixels there are in a line.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uh i think woll3 and i interpreted what you said as saying a 30x30 array (i.e. 900 pixels) is somehow related to how 900cpi is a special value for 3090. if 900cpi is a special value for 3090, that's not at all related to how there are 900 pixels.


In Woll3s defense that is exactly what popups was convinced a year (years?) ago when the exact same discussion came up in some old thread. And Skylit and Woll3 both told him that 30x30=900 does not mean native cpi = 900. That's just false assumption, like you pointed out in this thread already:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 30 is a unitless number.
> you dont pull out a unit of 1/inches out of thin air
> 
> the number of pixels in an array does not affect resolution at all. as in you can build a sensor that's 2x the physical size of everything in the 3090 and it's base cpi would be halved
> 
> actual cpi depends on pixel density*lens magnification*scaling.
> 
> pixel number only affects it indirectly, as with more pixels you scale more


----------



## dzlDave

after done some testing on the Rival 100 vs Kinzu V3 I can confirm that the CPI steps are:, 250/500/1000/1250/1500/1750/2000/4000. I definitly feel a diffrence in lift distance. While I could more or less navigate with the Kinzu V3 floating over the Mousepad the Rival 100 has significant lower lift distance.


----------



## CorruptBE

How's the malfunction speed @500/1000/1250/1500?


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> How's the malfunction speed @500/1000/1250/1500?


Yes, MouseTester graphs please.


----------



## HAGGARD

Derailing the thread for another second as I have still to deliver those MLT04 comparison graphs. This is G400 vs. OMB. It's proven more difficult than I thought to show this as both MouseTester versions as well as the MouseComparer struggle not to register completely nonsensical things as far as simultaneous speed response goes. But with these two you can at least see that the MLT04 (top) still reports at physical movement speeds well beyond 2m/s (as seen with G400 at the bottom).


----------



## Nivity

This thread might as well be closed







like last 20 pages have been 99% about non rival 100 related things


----------



## CorruptBE

Not yet, I want to know that malfunction speed


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*


Oddly enough, that graph reminds me of what I think I saw with the ikari laser on a hard pad. Can't confirm since the Ikaris are in pieces currently.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Oddly enough, that graph reminds me of what I think I saw with the ikari laser on a hard pad. Can't confirm since the Ikaris are in pieces currently.


So you got mad and smashed the poor Ikari against the wall







.


----------



## kicksome

Hopefully this comes out soon, keen to give it a go


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Hopefully this comes out soon, keen to give it a go


It's out, people here have it. They just can't be bothered to test it.


----------



## kicksome

Is it even on the steelseries website?


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Is it even on the steelseries website?


Nope, but some Swedish online shops have had it in stock for a while now.


----------



## kicksome

Has anyone confirmed how much this weighs?


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Has anyone confirmed how much this weighs?


120g


----------



## kicksome

That's with the cable right?


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> That's with the cable right?


yes, thats right. dont have it w/o cable.


----------



## kicksome

But That 120g includes the cable doesn't it?


----------



## johnsamuels

edit.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dzlDave*
> 
> yes, thats right. dont have it w/o cable.


Well, you can get a pretty close sans-cord measurement by simply putting the mouse on the scale with the cord hanging off then lifting the cord somewhat near the mouse so it's applying negligible weight. You can see if you're doing it right by checking any other mice you have for which you know the weight without cord.


----------



## Ufasas

how can i find out the release date of my used Rival by having serial codes/ P/N under mouse only? After reading some comments, I assume there were released two batches of Rivals, one with bad clicks, another one with crisper (good) clicks, amiright?


----------



## johnsamuels

As far as I know, they released one batch with poor quality rubber on the sides, and then the next batch had slightly better quality rubber. No changes in switches, that stuff is invisible so SS would not care.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> how can i find out the release date of my used Rival by having serial codes/ P/N under mouse only? After reading some comments, I assume there were released two batches of Rivals, one with bad clicks, another one with crisper (good) clicks, amiright?


First you write a comment about the Rival 100 in the Rival thread and then a Rival comment in the Rival 100 thread. Complete chaos!


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> First you write a comment about the Rival 100 in the Rival thread and then a Rival comment in the Rival 100 thread. Complete chaos!


This just again shows that I am interested in both mice, ;- )


----------



## dzlDave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Well, you can get a pretty close sans-cord measurement by simply putting the mouse on the scale with the cord hanging off then lifting the cord somewhat near the mouse so it's applying negligible weight. You can see if you're doing it right by checking any other mice you have for which you know the weight without cord.


I would but I dont have any scale...the wight I had was from product info page.


----------



## discoprince

anyone know what this guy is saying?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZoGthuKgxI

mouse looks good. im really curious to know how high the LOD is, the kana v2 was unusable for me due to the high LOD (yes i know it uses a 3090) even after the latest fw for it.
my xornet has really low lod and a 3050, hope?


----------



## trhead

Sensor position looks too low


----------



## iceskeleton

You guys heard of this "Rival 300 CS:GO Fade"? Just a normal rival with fade?
https://steelseries.com/gaming-mice/rival-300-csgo-fade


----------



## Shiotcrock

Doesn't look like anything special side button look better then the Raw and regular Rival I like the bigger side buttons but on my rival they are recessed a bit too much.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> ???
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1566139/the-new-mouse-from-steelseries-rival-100/360_30#post_24447339


??? I asked again, because clearly that isn't the same mouse.


----------



## trism

Estimating it from the video (by using sketchup tape measure and total mouse length set to 120.6 mm), the sensor is located at approx. 55+-a few mm from the bottom of the mouse. Most likely pretty close to the Kinzu sensor position.


----------



## MLJS54

FYI, it's up on Amazon for pre-order (showing OOS currently).

http://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Rival-Optical-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B015WKY3FU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1444238927&sr=8-2&keywords=steelseries+rival+100


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MLJS54*
> 
> FYI, it's up on Amazon for pre-order (showing OOS currently).
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Rival-Optical-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B015WKY3FU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1444238927&sr=8-2&keywords=steelseries+rival+100


ordered mine, thanks for the tip!


----------



## P54J

Size is compact, buttons are ok - not as good as Rival 300, short session with CS:GO i had no complains





I can run some more tests if you give me some apps to test it with.


----------



## discoprince

how is the LOD? whats the coating like?

giff details, good god man.


----------



## TriviumKM

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> Size is compact, buttons are ok - not as good as Rival 300, short session with CS:GO i had no complains
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can run some more tests if you give me some apps to test it with.






@P54J
Use MouseTester: http://www.overclock.net/t/1535687/mousetester-software/0_100#post_24472729


----------



## P54J

Coating - a bit less rubber feel than it is with Rival 300
LOD - there is about ~~ 1.5 - 2 millimeters? i would say
Sensor malfunction speed at 500DPI/500Hz - couldn't produce any malfunction even at fastest swipe
The same options to choose from in SteelSeries Engine 3 as it is with Rival 300
Buttons aren't so easy to smash for me, as it is with Rival 300

Playing CS:GO to find out how it "feels"


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> I can run some more tests if you give me some apps to test it with.


At the bottom here is a program to test the click response:
http://www.bloody.tw/en/Download.php


----------



## zeflow

Sensor position looks low?


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Sensor position looks low?


I'm guessing it's roughly the same as the Kinzu's.


----------



## P54J

I'm not sure if i did Mouse Test correctly.
CPI measure 800-1000 depends on speed


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quick circles


Quick swipes


Left key = G303 , right key = Rival 100




Correction, buttons are smashable but it is not so easy as with G303 or Rival 300


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> I'm not sure if i did Mouse Test correctly.
> CPI measure 800-100 depends on speed
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Quick circles
> 
> 
> Quick swipes
> 
> 
> Left key = G303 , right key = Rival 100
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correction, buttons are smashable but it is not so easy as with G303 or Rival 300


Thanks for doing that! Looks promising. Better than Kinzu V3 in both regards it looks like. On what pad was that?


----------



## TriviumKM

Do one fast swipe left to right and select, "xvelocity vs. time", in the drop down under plot type.


----------



## P54J

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> Do one fast swipe left to right and select, "xvelocity vs. time", in the drop down under plot type.





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Super fast swipe left to right


And again


Steady swipe




I did tests on Razer Goliathus Speed

Session with CS:GO proven that mouse is nice, but I would need to spend another couple of hours playing on this mouse to know. I like it's ambi-compact shape.


----------



## a_ak57

So how does the shape compare to other mice? Like is the hump the same as the sensei family or is it placed a bit further back, and how big does the hump feel anyway (like does it provide a fair amount of palm contact)? How's the width?


----------



## CorruptBE

*xvelocity vs. time*

Can you do one more and swipe as fast as you possibly physically can...

(I'm not even joking







)


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> Super fast swipe left to right


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> *xvelocity vs. time*
> 
> Can you do one more and swipe as fast as you possibly physically can...
> 
> (I'm not even joking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


To clarify: We want to see if the sensor can go higher than 4 m/s, because 3 m/s isn't really "super fast" for us low sensers.


----------



## TriviumKM

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Super fast swipe left to right
> 
> 
> And again
> 
> 
> Steady swipe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did tests on Razer Goliathus Speed
> 
> Session with CS:GO proven that mouse is nice, but I would need to spend another couple of hours playing on this mouse to know. I like it's ambi-compact shape.






Thanks!
Try to move the start and end data point so that the curve is elongated, like this:


----------



## P54J

My arm hurts now, and i had to increase DPI from 500 to achive 4m/s but here it is


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



500DPI @ 1000hz, Razer Speed, topping 3m/s


1000DPI @ 1000hz, QCK, topping 4 m/s




I will try couple more times to see if i can reach to 5 m/s or so at 500 DPI.


----------



## qsxcv

type in 1000dpi or whatever into mousetester. the graphs say 772...


----------



## P54J

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> type in 1000dpi or whatever into mousetester. the graphs say 772...


Last time i just measured it by Mouse Tester itself.



Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



It looks like it does not go beyond 4 m/s.

500 DPI at 1000hz QCK - up to 6m/s?


500 DPI at 1000hz QCK - 5 m/s




Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> So how does the shape compare to other mice? Like is the hump the same as the sensei family or is it placed a bit further back, and how big does the hump feel anyway (like does it provide a fair amount of palm contact)? How's the width?


Hump seems to reasamble Rival hump rather than Sensei hump. It's more forward as it would suggest to full palm-on-the-top. If i do that, my fingers overreach the mouse, but if I claw it (hybrid with fingers and palm a bit on mousepad) it fits. More of a Rival feel. When i claw it feels a bit like Newmen GX1 Pro. Sensei fills up your hand - palm, Rival 100 is not. Sensei buttons are easier to click. It is wider and shorter from FK2. Basically, I don't need to fix my grip during the game, as with Roccat Military Pure, grip is not distracting.
Let me know if you would like some comparison photos with other mice.


----------



## aerowalk30

What are the side grips like? Is there any rubber at all?


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> *Let me know if you would like some comparison photos with other mice*.


this would be nice








also since you cant weigh it can you just let us know how it compares to your other mice in the weight department?


----------



## javamoose

Is it the hump the exact same height as the Rival?


----------



## P54J

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> What are the side grips like? Is there any rubber at all?


Its plastic with tabs-like texture. It's pretty grippy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> this would be nice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also since you cant weigh it can you just let us know how it compares to your other mice in the weight department?


Yeah sure thing, i can be really wrong about weight hehe but its ligher than Rival for sure. It doesn't feel heavy but i might not have been holding a really light mouse. It's not feather for sure. Weight was not something i was noticing during the game.

Photos G303, Roccat Pure and Rival 100/300


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *javamoose*
> 
> Is it the hump the exact same height as the Rival?


It is smaller, check upper photos for both Rivals. Hump in Rival 300 goes with your index finger, with RIval 100 it's ambi and just on top/middle. If you palm your mice, Rival 300 would fit better i think. Rival 300 feels more confy.

Rival 100 has a bit better button finish than Kana v2 but you can notice the cheap feel from it.


----------



## trism

Hmph, otherwise it looks like a very good mouse but that sensor is located just a tad too low. It looks like the Kinzu sensor position. Would tire my wrist quite quickly :/ Might work fine for a fingertip grip.

Could be a good shell to do a frankenmouse project, though.


----------



## Sencha

What's the mouse weight minus cable? Haven't read whole thread.


----------



## Nivity

Seconded, can someone weight the mouse without the cable (just hold up the cable).

Also, how is the mouse @ 1000dpi. Does it have problems with jitter with small movements? OR some weird habbits with faster movements.
I cannot use 500dpi.

Still interested in the mouse, I really want a ambidextrous mouse again ;O

But more then 90gram is to much, already on the limit for my KPM, also 800-1000dpi must be good.


----------



## atarii

the sensor position looks so bad :c


----------



## TriviumKM

I actually like mice with that sensor position. Let's me hold the mouse further back with only fingertips.


----------



## MLJS54

@P54J

Do you find it to be lighter than the FK1?


----------



## Laxer

@P54J: And another question... what about the width of the Rival 100? Does it have the same width like the Sensei? Or is it thinner like the Zowie FK1, Kone Pure, etc? Thanks in advance!


----------



## P54J

When i was looking to mouse, i've made sure to get all info i could get, so keep it coming if you want to know about it









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> the sensor position looks so bad :c





Spoiler: Photo







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MLJS54*
> 
> @P54J
> 
> Do you find it to be lighter than the FK1?


Rival 100 is lighter-to-the-same as FK1, or it's smaller dimensions makes me think that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Laxer*
> 
> @P54J: And another question... what about the width of the Rival 100? Does it have the same width like the Sensei? Or is it thinner like the Zowie FK1, Kone Pure, etc? Thanks in advance!


Sensei is wider for sure all the way, on the very begining, Sensei gives you full contact with palm. Rival 100 is not. Width is similar to FK2, but the hump on FK2 is not that big as on Rival. R100 has higher profile. Rival is a little bit like a brick in your hands lol. No curves on sides like for FK series. Kone Pure has higher profile as well.

If you are looking for Sensei with good sensor, there is Newmen GX1-Pro and of course it's richer brother Xtrfy MG that is being released now.


----------



## ronal

The only thing that seems wrong with the mouse is the sensor position.


----------



## trhead

They really messed up the sensor position. I don't think I'll even "try" this mouse. I also just got the Castor and first impressions are great and will also checkout that Xtrfy newmeny mouse when it comes out.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> They really messed up the sensor position. I don't think I'll even "try" this mouse. I also just got the Castor and first impressions are great and will also checkout that Xtrfy newmeny mouse when it comes out.


This Xtrfy mouse?
http://www.maxfps.se/moss/xtrfy/xg-m2

It's out in Sweden now at least.
Also the NIP branded thing is in stock http://www.maxfps.se/moss/xtrfy/xg-m2-ninjas-in-pyjamas-le


----------



## zeflow

http://www.esportstore.com/mice/xtrfy/xg-m2-ninjas-in-pyjamas-le

This website ships to U.S. and other Countries.

Problem with the Xtrfy mouse is the weight is 112g without cable, you'll have to remove the weights inside. If its like the newman it does come with extra skates...still annoying though.

Im sick of modding mice to make them better..


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> This Xtrfy mouse?
> http://www.maxfps.se/moss/xtrfy/xg-m2
> 
> It's out in Sweden now at least.
> Also the NIP branded thing is in stock http://www.maxfps.se/moss/xtrfy/xg-m2-ninjas-in-pyjamas-le


Generic overpriced 3310 mouse sensei clone shape mouse with an esports team backing. The 3310 isn't special anymore(if it ever was).


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Problem with the Xtrfy mouse is the weight is 112g without cable, you'll have to remove the weights inside. If its like the newman it does come with extra skates...still annoying though.
> 
> Im sick of modding mice to make them better..


wow that sucks. Newmens weight is perfect


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> This Xtrfy mouse?
> http://www.maxfps.se/moss/xtrfy/xg-m2


Yep


----------



## trism

The sensor is located just a tad too low but it is still better than the Zowie FK2 position.


----------



## daav1d

I tried it for 5 minutes and then went back to my 3310 AM. The switches in Rival 100 is terrible, way to hard and super mushy. Sensor felt... good, I didn't felt anything wierd about it that short time testing it. Scroll wheel was good, side buttons were nice. Compared to Rival 300 the rubber grips were shiny and slippery. The top shell rubber coating was also way worse. Mouse feet was a bit uneven and badly fitted, but I didn't noticed it while using it. The switches destroyed this mouse for me so I don't care about trying it more however.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> I tried it for 5 minutes and then went back to my 3310 AM. The switches in Rival 100 is terrible, way to hard and super mushy.


do you mean they were really hard or easy to click?


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> do you mean they were really hard or easy to click?


Way to hard, and mushy on top of that.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> Way to hard, and mushy on top of that.


hm thats strange. My rival original has very easy clicks and i quite like it like that


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> hm thats strange. My rival original has very easy clicks and i quite like it like that


Yes Rival (300) got way lighter clicks.


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> Way to hard, and mushy on top of that.


Thanks for the info









Probably gonna cancel my Amazon order and get another fk2..


----------



## predict

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> Way to hard, and mushy on top of that.


I have the orginal rival along with rival 100, there is absolutely no difference what so ever in button clicks and feel.... well my opinion atleast
Actually i really like this mouse and design compared to the orginal rival. I was abit skeptic in the start about the plastic side grips, but honestly it works really well.


----------



## CorruptBE

Actually quite interested in this now. If the responsiveness is way better then the 3310/3090's out there and malfunction speed really is above 4 m/s... this might be the mouse to replace the G303 for me (shape considerations







).


----------



## Ricey20

I see a redesigned Rival aka Rival 300 on SS site now. I'm guessing the US release of Rival 100 isn't too far away. If I was impatient tho, is there somewhere I can order this thing already?


----------



## Nivity

I find the Rival buttons ok (since the rival 100 got the same buttons). And to me its WAY easier to press then with FK/AM which have the hardest clicks ever.

This from playing a ton of moba where you click all the time.

Still iffy about the Rival 100 though since the 1000dpi needs to very stable without jitter (prefer 800 dpi but ye)


----------



## Aventadoor

Okey so is the Rival 100 buttons the same click wise as the Rival?
Then they are decent, but bad for spamming .


----------



## a_ak57

Since it seems a few people now have the mouse, can one of you provide the weight sans-cable?


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> The sensor is located just a tad too low but it is still better than the Zowie FK2 position.


For a 120mm mice, definitely too low. No idea why they didn't center it, because this Rival100 is probably 58mm. When people do angular swipes with this, it's gonna be ******ed...


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I find the Rival buttons ok (since the rival 100 got the same buttons). And to me its WAY easier to press then with FK/AM which have the hardest clicks ever.
> 
> This from playing a ton of moba where you click all the time.
> 
> Still iffy about the Rival 100 though since the 1000dpi needs to very stable without jitter (prefer 800 dpi but ye)


4K monitor or why 500 is not good enough?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> For a 120mm mice, definitely too low. No idea why they didn't center it, because this Rival100 is probably 58mm. When people do angular swipes with this, it's gonna be ******ed...


Yeah it is a few millimeters too low. I still prefer that position over the one in the KPM and FK, for example. My Kinzuadder feels much better in angular swipes but it tires my hand quite fast. Ninox Aurora sensor position is very good in my opinion.


----------



## wareya

Some people like to actually go across their whole desktop without lifting up their wrist you know


----------



## qsxcv

why do 1-2 pixels of 1000dpi jitter matter anyway on desktop?


----------



## wareya

because someone thought it was a good idea to make a window manager theme with 1px borders the default on manjaro


----------



## qsxcv

well there's alt+right click


----------



## wareya

sometimes someone wants to use alt and mouse buttons at the same time

I'm even tempted to disable alt+M1 because I can't select text from links properly


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> 4K monitor or why 500 is not good enough?
> Yeah it is a few millimeters too low. I still prefer that position over the one in the KPM and FK, for example. My Kinzuadder feels much better in angular swipes but it tires my hand quite fast. Ninox Aurora sensor position is very good in my opinion.


Oh yea, definitely a lot better than the FK.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Some people like to actually go across their whole desktop without lifting up their wrist you know


That's why I asked if he is using 4K. Am I the only one thinking that [email protected] on desktop is already way too much? I use 400 at 6/11, 800 at 4/11 - definitely do not have to lift my wrist to get across the screen with 500 CPI, it's like 10-15 cm of movement. I actually prefer even lower than 400 CPI.


----------



## trism

Edit: doublepost


----------



## wareya

I _almost_ need to lift my wrist to go across my desktop at only 1680 pixels and 800 dpi.


----------



## Nivity

400-500 dpi is NOT enough even for 1080p monitor in desk. (I use 1440p now though), but was way to low for 1080p all years before that.
And even less so in my mobas, yes I can use the increase sensitivity slider ingame but in most games it just messes up everything regarding to sens.

That's why I want my 800dpi because I am used to that sens in all mobas and in windows.

And yes jitters matters a lot in moba, where you click a minion and back thousand of times. Need the accuracy, same way I need it in fps.


----------



## Gonzalez07

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> That's why I asked if he is using 4K. Am I the only one thinking that [email protected] on desktop is already way too much? I use 400 at 6/11, 800 at 4/11 - definitely do not have to lift my wrist to get across the screen with 500 CPI, it's like 10-15 cm of movement. I actually prefer even lower than 400 CPI.


Same here. 400 dpi on 1080p is fine. I find 600 perfect so if I do use 800 dpi mouse I make sure to use 5/11.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gonzalez07*
> 
> Same here. 400 dpi on 1080p is fine. I find 600 perfect so if I do use 800 dpi mouse I make sure to use 5/11.


I use 800 cpi on windows and 400 cpi im game. However, I also find 600 to be the sweet spot tbh. People don't need 4000 cpi for a 4k display.


----------



## pandalf

Can anyone confirm whether it uses A3050 sensor?


----------



## Arc0s

Well honestly while I'm on my desktop I don't want to move my arm 40 cm just to get to the other side of the screen, it's tiring and pointless.


----------



## MrKoala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pandalf*
> 
> Can anyone confirm whether it uses A3050 sensor?


It's 3320, A3050-like but not the same thing.


----------



## predict

wait wath? 3320? sources?


----------



## trism

It's not the PMW3320, it's the S3059-SS; a (most likely SROM-) modified A3050. Customized by PixArt just for this mouse and for Steelseries. It should have a lower LOD, don't know about the other changes.


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrKoala*
> 
> It's 3320, A3050-like but not the same thing.


Negatron


----------



## ramraze

Wow, is the Rival 100 truly lower than the Sensei, even? If so then wow, I couldn't care less about it. Just happy ignorant bliss using my vanilla Rival and not caring about any new small abominations.
The newer batch of the vanilla Rival really improved things for me. Lod felt better (this could be because the LED in the old one started to die out), clicks feel better, rubber sides feel better, scrollwheel feels better. Nuff' said.


----------



## bond10

Steelseries page is up: https://steelseries.com/gaming-mice/rival-100

ugh, why don't they list the dimensions and weight like they used to.


----------



## Tsaza

Quote:


> At the heart of the Rival 100 lies the custom-engineered 3059-SS optical gaming sensor with 8 CPI steps up to 4000, 143 IPS, and 20g acceleration. The enhancements made to create this new sensor provide gamers with the most accurate, 1:1 optical tracking experience for any mouse under $50.


----------



## john88

Just placed a order for the Rival 100 on SS website. It comes with a free QcK mousepad and free shipping! Paid $39.99 total.

Anyone know where their US warehouse is located?


----------



## CorruptBE

Placed an order to, was going to wait, but thanks for the heads up about the free delivery


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Steelseries page is up: https://steelseries.com/gaming-mice/rival-100
> 
> ugh, why don't they list the dimensions and weight like they used to.


Yeah, I really wanna know how much this thing weighs. I doubt it's anything unreasonable, but still.


----------



## CorruptBE

"Perceived weight" is more important then the real weight imo.

A 90 gram mouse with the perfect shape for your hand can "feel" lighter then a 80 gram mouse with an awful shape for instance.


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *john88*
> 
> Just placed a order for the Rival 100 on SS website. It comes with a free QcK mousepad and free shipping! Paid $39.99 total.
> 
> Anyone know where their US warehouse is located?


Cerritos (around that area), California I think - that is where they shipped my DOTA 2 Rival Mouse when I ordered from their website


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> "Perceived weight" is more important then the real weight imo.
> 
> A 90 gram mouse with the perfect shape for your hand can "feel" lighter then a 80 gram mouse with an awful shape for instance.


True, but for a relatively basic shape like this one you can get a pretty good estimation based on the dimensions and weight.


----------



## john88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Cerritos (around that area), California I think - that is where they shipped my DOTA 2 Rival Mouse when I ordered from their website


Dam was so happy to find out Cerritos, since it's really close to me. But I think they moved their warehouse to Louisville, KY. Was hoping to get it before the weekend, since I will have Saturday off work.


----------



## FredgHar




----------



## trism

Oh well, what the heck. Had to pick it up. I'll write something about it later on today and do a bunch of mousetester graphs. Maybe even a proper (yeah right) review. Can measure and answer the questions. Yes, I do have a scale.

So far it seems really good as my brother who is very OCD about mice seems to like it and has actually used it for almost a week already. He's been through a dozen of mice in the past year (including but not limited to FM15SE, G100s/G302/G303/G402, DA3.5G/Chroma, Sensei, FK1, ZA13, Aurora, Rival, KPM) so I'm keeping my hopes up!


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FredgHar*


Thanks for the effort but weight with cord isn't super useful, unfortunately. I don't even know why companies choose to list that when a sans-cord weight is something standardized and can be used to actually compare products, whereas a weight with cord doesn't tell you much since cords weigh different amounts.

Those specs seem questionable as well. 76mm is a huge width, so I'm assuming that measurement comes from the very bottom rear of the mouse where it flares out, which isn't useful (though actually, the bottom doesn't even flare out all that much and even the super wide Spawn is just 75mm so I think it might simply be wrong).


----------



## bond10

If you're ordering from Steelseries, use the coupon code *AYDREN10* for 10% off.


----------



## Maximillion

...now you tell me.


----------



## a_ak57

Welp. That's enough to make me buy yet another mouse, so if nobody does first I'll report back with my own sans-cable weight measurement in a number of days.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> ...now you tell me.


Yes

Yes

Yes now he does...

Goes and facepalm in a corner*


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Oh well, what the heck. Had to pick it up. I'll write something about it later on today and do a bunch of mousetester graphs. Maybe even a proper (yeah right) review. Can measure and answer the questions. Yes, I do have a scale.
> 
> So far it seems really good as my brother who is very OCD about mice seems to like it and has actually used it for almost a week already. He's been through a dozen of mice in the past year (including but not limited to FM15SE, G100s/G302/G303/G402, DA3.5G/Chroma, Sensei, FK1, ZA13, Aurora, Rival, KPM) so I'm keeping my hopes up!


If you can, please do a button latency test as well.


----------



## Peter Nixeus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *john88*
> 
> Dam was so happy to find out Cerritos, since it's really close to me. But I think they moved their warehouse to Louisville, KY. Was hoping to get it before the weekend, since I will have Saturday off work.


hmmm... may be - I ordered my DOTA 2 Rival mouse from them over a year ago. It literally came in a little over a day (took 24hrs to process and ship). I sold the Doom weapon on the steam market that came with it and literally got the mouse for like $20.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Welp. That's enough to make me buy yet another mouse, so if nobody does first I'll report back with my own sans-cable weight measurement in a number of days.


The weight is 90 grams on a scale that shows 74 grams for the Ninox Aurora. 117 grams in total with the cord. Balance point seems to be around the center.


----------



## FredgHar

Welp, you right but it's official data.. should be accurate. as for cord you pretty right, but no more data given. I have some on warehouse right now but dont feel like cutting cord from brand new one to check weight


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> The weight is 90 grams on a scale that shows 74 grams for the Ninox Aurora. 117 grams in total with the cord. Balance point seems to be around the center.


You are a wonderful person. Aurora's weight is supposed to be around 70g so the Rival 100 would probably be listed as 86-87g officially. Well, assuming Aurora actually came out at the weight it was supposed to anyway.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FredgHar*
> 
> Welp, you right but it's official data.. should be accurate. as for cord you pretty right, but no more data given. I have some on warehouse right now but dont feel like cutting cord from brand new one to check weight


Well, you don't actually have to cut the cable or anything. You just kinda lift the cable up to make the weight negligible (can check how accurate you are by doing what trism did and checking a mouse we know the sans-cable weight of).


----------



## Arc0s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> If you're ordering from Steelseries, use the coupon code *AYDREN10* for 10% off.


Thanks for the code! Just ordered, came out to $35.99, free shipping and free QcK mouse pad.


----------



## mtzgr

Hadn't planned on getting this but for $36 and a free QcK, they got me.








Would have preferred a Sensei shell but it's probably never coming, so here's hoping the Rival is as good or better in my hand.


----------



## CorruptBE

I just hope I can wield this thing up to 4 m/s without malfunctioning...

If so, it might just become my main mouse.


----------



## wareya

3.6m/s afaik


----------



## CorruptBE

Well...

Is that perfect control or malfunction speed









(only need 4 m/s for my 180° turns though)

Time will tell though, I hit it quite consistently when doing those 180° turns.


----------



## wareya

It's optical so what people typically call the perfect control speed is probably synonymous with or very close to the malfunction speed. (I personally use a different definition of perfect control that is much less lenient, but who cares)


----------



## CorruptBE

To me hitting malfunction speed is where it basically stops tracking or where I'm looking at the ceiling/ground instantly (Ah good ole Logittech G5 :x).

I won't be needing precision beyond 3.5 m/s, just something that remotely resembles tracking


----------



## mksteez

Waiting for everyone's impression!


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mksteez*
> 
> Waiting for everyone's impression!


This is OCN - Home of Perfectionists, wanting the impossible yet never attaining it in any way, shape or form







.


----------



## trism

I really like the tracking and actually the sensor position feels good. Probably going to be my main mouse for now.

LOD is a bit high and the sides are quite meh... Wish they would have used the same coating than the rest of the mouse. Clicks are firm in my opinion, but the sound is more like G100s/mushy. Could have been a bit narrower for me, but this works ok. It's around 67 mm at the widest point and 60 mm at the middle. Dunno where they pulled their figure for the width. The scroll wheel is a big plus! Most likely not perfect for bunnyhoppers but I really like the very distinct notches it has as I usually switch weapons from the scroll-wheel.

I'll do some graphs and button delay tests in a few hours.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> This is OCN - Home of Perfectionists, wanting the impossible yet never attaining it in any way, shape or form
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Sensei RAW with a good build quality and a 3366.
I'm pretty sure that about 90% of the community would be satisfied.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I really like the tracking and actually the sensor position feels good. Probably going to be my main mouse for now.
> 
> LOD is a bit high and the sides are quite meh... Wish they would have used the same coating than the rest of the mouse. Clicks are firm in my opinion, but the sound is more like G100s/mushy. Could have been a bit narrower for me, but this works ok. It's around 67 mm at the widest point and 60 mm at the middle. Dunno where they pulled their figure for the width. The scroll wheel is a big plus! Most likely not perfect for bunnyhoppers but I really like the very distinct notches it has as I usually switch weapons from the scroll-wheel.
> 
> I'll do some graphs and button delay tests in a few hours.


Can you please measure it for me.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Sensei RAW with a good build quality and a 3366.
> I'm pretty sure that about 90% of the community would be satisfied.


This. Take my money, give me that mouse !


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Sensei RAW with a good build quality and a 3366.
> I'm pretty sure that about 90% of the community would be satisfied.


Oh PULEEEZE,

Don't you know where you are, this is OCN home of belly aching and whining about anything from how an object is painted to how it looks sitting on your mouse pad.

That is even before anyone puts their actual hand on it, to use it just yet. PLUS the other shills supporting Razer Corp and such, will barge into this section to give false testimony ripped off from other dodgy websites to help discredit this mouse even further.

You really don't understand basic human nature here on OCN because it represents much of what internet life is all about. Nothing of substance but all smoke and mirrors like a dodgy political campaign, promoting some nasty individual only this time its all about promoting lackluster input devices, that should never have been made in the first place.

Although I actually applaud this latest Rival 100 and in particular it's nice and low price tag







.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Oh PULEEEZE,
> 
> Don't you know where you are, this is OCN home of belly aching and whining about anything from how an object is painted to how it looks sitting on your mouse pad.
> 
> That is even before anyone puts their actual hand on it, to use it just yet. PLUS the other shills supporting Razer Corp and such, will barge into this section to give false testimony ripped off from other dodgy websites to help discredit this mouse even further.
> 
> You really don't understand basic human nature here on OCN because it represents much of what internet life is all about. Nothing of substance but all smoke and mirrors like a dodgy political campaign, promoting some nasty individual only this time its all about promoting lackluster input devices, that should never have been made in the first place.
> 
> Although I actually applaud this latest Rival 100 and in particular it's nice and low price tag
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


10/10, I laughed.

But seriously now, I've seen so many people asking for an optical Sensei for ages. Some companies have tried to create something similar, but they're not as close as the Sensei tbh. The only mouse that is closer to the Sensei RAW is the Newmen GX1 Pro, but it's too much 1337 *********** style for me (LEDs, bad plastic quality, uncomfortable scrollwheel and side buttons, etc)

I don't really know why they decided to create a new mouse with a bad sensor positioning and a low-end sensor for 40$ instead of giving us a Sensei RAW with the 3310 and a better build quality. Btw, 40$ is the price of the Rival white on Amazon. It's ridiculous if you compare both mice tbh.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> 10/10, I laughed.
> 
> But seriously now, I've seen so many people asking for an optical Sensei for ages. Some companies have tried to create something similar, but they're not as close as the Sensei tbh. The only mouse that is closer to the Sensei RAW is the Newmen GX1 Pro, but it's too much 1337 *********** style for me (LEDs, bad plastic quality, uncomfortable scrollwheel and side buttons, etc)
> 
> I don't really know why they decided to create a new mouse with a bad sensor positioning and a low-end sensor for 40$ instead of giving us a Sensei RAW with the 3310 and a better build quality. Btw, 40$ is the price of the Rival white on Amazon. It's ridiculous if you compare both mice tbh.


It's because if they made the ultimate mouse, then this would logically be your only mouse purchase for a long time. They'll keep releasing almost perfect mice which will make you buy em. Look at zowie they release stuff one at a time.


----------



## ragemuffin

I'm excited to try this mouse.
Based on their tweet (https://twitter.com/SteelSeries/status/653949520334712832), the shape is smaller than a Sensei Raw.
I'd buy it right now, but I'm kinda skeptical about the brand new sensor. I'll hold out and see what everyone thinks about it before buying.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *steelseries*
> S3059-SS CUSTOM SENSOR
> At the heart of the Rival 100 lies the custom-engineered 3059-SS optical gaming sensor with 8 CPI steps up to 4000, 143 IPS, and 20g acceleration. The enhancements made to create this new sensor provide gamers with the most accurate, 1:1 optical tracking experience for any mouse under $50.


Marketing gimmick or true 3050 enchancements?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> most accurate, 1:1 optical tracking experience for any mouse under $50.


hahahahhaahhahahahaahaha


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> Marketing gimmick or true 3050 enchancements?


Holy crap
hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahaha

That might be a joke, I can't belive that.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> 3059-SS optical gaming sensor


*snicker*

https://steelseries.com/gaming-mice/rival-100



Just....everything on that page...


----------



## Ufasas

Oct. 19, 2015 -
Oct. 22, 2015

143 IPS, smaller optical senseish mouse, 30 GBP + free pad, free shipping, okay, i wanna try out this mouse as soon as possible


----------



## Sencha

I got one! will report back ASAP. I'll probably be using the free pad to soak up my tears though.


----------



## exitone

It's hilarious because the Kana v2 is under $50 and will probably beat this mouse. But it's not like it's Razer-level.


----------



## fnade

Anyone that own's the mouse how the sensor compares to 3366 or 3310 ? are hz's stable ?


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> It's hilarious because the Kana v2 is under $50 and will probably beat this mouse. But it's not like it's Razer-level.


my hopes are: please beat sensei laser, beat kana v2 LOD + max tracking, and abyssus 2010/2014 high LOD


----------



## Nivity

Meh I just ordered one.
Will try it out at 1000dpi to see how it works, if it's bad I will put it in the graveyard


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Can you please measure it for me.


It's 57-58 mm from the bottom _but_ when measuring the position against the Aurora, from wrist to the sensor is almost the same distance as Aurora's shape allows it to be closer to the palm. Certainly feels good for me; much better than the Kinzuadder.


----------



## trism

Calling @qsxcv to analyze this. Can do more if needed. EDIT: Had Steelseries engine on... argh. Will try later if it changes things.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> To me hitting malfunction speed is where it basically stops tracking or where I'm looking at the ceiling/ground instantly (Ah good ole Logittech G5 :x).
> 
> I won't be needing precision beyond 3.5 m/s, just something that remotely resembles tracking


I can't get it to malfunction. It just doesn't spin out like the typical cluster* watching to the floor -type of thing. But still in MouseTester I get only 3.5-4 m/s. I've pulled easily past this with a PMW3310, but most likely capping at 4.5-5m/s. The speed I pulled it hurt my arm so I am not doing it again







I only max at ~2-2.5 m/s in the worst case scenario so it's not an issue for me.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Meh I just ordered one.
> Will try it out at 1000dpi to see how it works, if it's bad I will put it in the graveyard




It seems to jitter, however I can't really say because 1000 CPI is way too much for me to properly control it at all in 2D environment. I'll try how it feels in-game.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> my hopes are: please beat sensei laser, beat kana v2 LOD + max tracking, and abyssus 2010/2014 high LOD


Tracks on 2 CDs @ Corsair MM200, doesn't track at all at on 3 CDs.


----------



## platniklas123

I have just joined to ask a few questions to owners of the rival 100, do anyone of you own a cm storm xornet? Because I do and I am worried about buying the rival 100. My xornet works "okay", even if it skips randomly and sometimes feel like jittering. I am okay with it. I have read that the xornet isn't ideal for dark mousepads but it seems to okay 'fine' with my steelseries 4HD. So to the questions, do anyone of you guys own the xornet and how does it feel and compare to the rival 100? How well does it work at 500dpi and how are the mouse feet?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> It's hilarious because the Kana v2 is under $50 and will probably beat this mouse. But it's not like it's Razer-level.
> 
> 
> 
> my hopes are: please beat sensei laser, beat kana v2 LOD + max tracking, and abyssus 2010/2014 high LOD
Click to expand...

Don't you guys seem to HATE anything to do with a 3050 sensor, what gives?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> It's hilarious because the Kana v2 is under $50 and will probably beat this mouse. But it's not like it's Razer-level.


v2 kana is one of the worst mice I own. I have over 20 mice in my collection. The terrible 3090 implementation (so laggy) and high lift off distance make it unusable to me. Everything I've been reading about the 100 seems much, much better.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> Everything I've been reading about the 100 seems much, much better.


So you are saying the Rival 100 - 3050 sensor is superior to any older 3090?


----------



## Kitarist

Mouse looks promising but i wonder how good is the sensor and the overall mouse perfomance. Lets wait for some reviews


----------



## trism

Pretty much the only thing I dislike is the side grips. It's like hard plastic with protruding small dots. I really don't understand what the design goal has been for those. For me they are uncomfortable and slippery. The coating on top of the mouse is really good so I don't understand why they didn't use the same coating on the side grips too. I put some tape over mine and it feels quite a bit better.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Don't you guys seem to HATE anything to do with a 3050 sensor, what gives?


3050 in xornet and ozone is weakling for me somehow, i don't like how i have to try harder playing with it in certain situations of pc shooters to achieve ALMOST similar performance to 3090, not talking about 3310 and 3366 : X these are the greatest ever along with 3988, i want all possible advantage in game.

R100: FINALLY (OMG) isolated m1 & m2, +
improved sensor over 3050, 'curious now'
a tad smaller than sensei, 'curious now'
lovely 'ass' (no ****), +
rubber cable, don't c a r e much, but +
side buttons, +
what if sensor weaker than 3090 and 3888, worried now, grave is ready, -
want smooth side grips, not dotted ones, -
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> So you are saying the Rival 100 - 3050 sensor is superior to any older 3090?


KHM KHM, 3059-SS? : P


----------



## atarii

promo code + free shipping + free qck = basically the mouse costs 14€ lol

got one, we'll see

i just need less smoothing than a 3310 and buttons lighter than huanos. Both things are easy to achieve


----------



## FredgHar

I don't get you guys...
Rival 100 is replacement for kinzu v3 - budget mouse. Its working, its working good and its cheap. hallelujah

If any of you haters are unhappy and wallets are to thick - fell fre to go for rival 300 or rival... welp cant say more. You will have plenty opportunities really soon to spend ****load of money on mouse if you are unhappy with cheap ones with steel series logo. trust me.


----------



## Ufasas

80 euros vs 40 euros, hm, does +40 euros can really make difference over rival 100 quality ?


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Tracks on 2 CDs @ Corsair MM200, doesn't track at all at on 3 CDs.


Sounds good, better than aby? how many ? Was it 4 CDs ? [posted another post too quick, dunno how to merge last two posts]


----------



## Kitarist

Just ordered Rival 100 will post a review when i get it


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

The question here is it better than 3320?

seeing they will have an edge over the rest of the brands that will now release the 3320.

Checking the specs of the 3050 the image array is 19x19 if they have increased the dpi to 4000 dpi this will mean the signal to noise rating will increase a lot.

This is where you guys will see the jitter happen.

So this means the steps above 2000 dpi are interpolated.

can anyone take a picture of the lens I am curious if they modified it to make lift of distance lower or change magnification.

My guess is the sensor will feel less raw then an am10/3320


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> So this means the steps above 2000 dpi are interpolated.


Above 2000?

Many ... where given.

Ideally for me it'll perform nicely at 1000 dpi, but I can settle for 500 if need be.

(mine has shipped btw, UPS)


----------



## a_ak57

Mine shipped already too, UPS says it'll be here Friday. Not that it really matters since trism already reported on the weight and I don't have anything meaningful to say about performance since I'm not as perceptive as others here. Will probably make some comments about how the shape feels in hand compared to the other 800 mice I own though.


----------



## discoprince

i just got the tracking number for mine about an hour ago.

good guy steelseries. mouse + the pad for $35? i had an amazon pre order had to cancel that ish.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> So you are saying the Rival 100 - 3050 sensor is superior to any older 3090?


probably just the 3090 in the kana v2, so far from user reports it seems that way (ill test it myself when it arrives obviously). i didn't mind the 3090 in savu or the vanilla FK/ec2.

but honestly i could care less about the sensor on this one (unless its complete garbage) i just think the shape is really appealing. should hold me over until the finalmouse ambi comes out.

also it was really hard for me not to pull the trigger on this one, a decent ambi shaped mouse with side buttons and you get a mouse pad for free for $35? yes please. i only wish it was lighter but finalmouse has that going for me.


----------



## Ufasas

So Rival 100 LoD is 2CDs, 2.4mm

And what was Rival vanilla Lod ? 1 cd ?

Who can tell the difference between 1.2mm vs 2.4 mm lod in fps games like quake live and cs ??


----------



## SwantanamoJ

Any mice experts know anything about the side button delay time? Been looking for a G400 replacement but I use Mouse 4 to jump so previous mice with such a button delay kind of bug me.


----------



## john88

Mine shipped today too. Estimated arrival tuesday next week... any idea when best buy, amazon, or frys will have it?

I really want to play cs:go with it this weekend, as i will not have another day off of work for awhile.


----------



## ronal

Mine just got shipped, it should be here in a couple days. I can't wait to try it out in CS:GO.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Amusingly there has been no pictures of the internals yet.


----------



## Shwiqo6434

..


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *przem33k*
> 
> Has anyone already measured the button latency? I've been using Kinzu V3 lately, and its latency is really noticable in comparison to Razer Deathadder 2013 or Logitech G303 for example. Rival 100 and Kinzu share the same sensors, but is the firmware that causes input lag on buttons the same?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> Left key = G303 , right key = Rival 100


Probably close to Kana V2? Would have to have someone pop it up open and do the middle wire to another tested mouse test to be totally sure.


----------



## Shwiqo6434

..


----------



## meh00143

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> The question here is it better than 3320?
> 
> seeing they will have an edge over the rest of the brands that will now release the 3320.


Sorry to derail a little, but is there an influx of 3320 coming?


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *meh00143*
> 
> Sorry to derail a little, but is there an influx of 3320 coming?


CM Storm Xornet will be nr 1 after that more will follow its just a matter of time the sensor will be public then.


----------



## Kitarist

When is the new CM Storm Xornet coming out ? Thats like a perfect mouse for claw grip


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> CM Storm Xornet will be nr 1 after that more will follow its just a matter of time the sensor will be public then.


Kova?


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> Kova?


probably they said native till 3500 dpi interpolated till 7000dpi but have not seen any internals or anything yet so its all speculation still.


----------



## trism

I hate placebo!

I was perfectly fine with the Aurora and the KPM before, now after a few days of gaming with the Rival 100 both of those mice feel like they would have some sort of a delay in tracking... Fckng brain doing tricks on me. Maybe it's just the 400 vs 500 CPI...


----------



## Kitarist

So basicly thats a good thing for rival 100 then


----------



## jsx3

Only steelseries would fluff an inherently weak sensor architecture as the latest and greatest. Heh...


----------



## Sencha

Yeah Razer never do anything like that.....


----------



## poros1ty

$30 mouse? Ok, just don't expect to use it for more than a day lol.

I don't get it. Old and crappy sensor when they are much better sensors on the market. This is why I never buy Steelseries mice. They all suck.

Why would I go from 3310 to 3050? Maybe if you're a high sens player you can resort to this cheap bad mouse, but if you're a low sens player you can easily hit 3.5 m/s or higher so this mouse is worthless.

Waste of money folks.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> $30 mouse? Ok, just don't expect to use it for more than a day lol.
> 
> I don't get it. Old and crappy sensor when they are much better sensors on the market. This is why I never buy Steelseries mice. They all suck.
> 
> Why would I go from 3310 to 3050? Maybe if you're a high sens player you can resort to this cheap bad mouse, but if you're a low sens player you can easily hit 3.5 m/s or higher so this mouse is worthless.
> 
> Waste of money folks.


3.5 m/s ?? How do you people reach those speeds? I couldn't even make a kinzu v2 malfunction with it's 2 m/s...I play with 30.5 cm/360.


----------



## Arc0s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> $30 mouse? Ok, just don't expect to use it for more than a day lol.
> 
> I don't get it. Old and crappy sensor when they are much better sensors on the market. This is why I never buy Steelseries mice. They all suck.
> 
> Why would I go from 3310 to 3050? Maybe if you're a high sens player you can resort to this cheap bad mouse, but if you're a low sens player you can easily hit 3.5 m/s or higher so this mouse is worthless.
> 
> Waste of money folks.


So don't buy it.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> 3.5 m/s ?? How do you people reach those speeds? I couldn't even make a kinzu v2 malfunction with it's 2 m/s...I play with 30.5 cm/360.


 with rival

 with g303 with some hard swipes, usualy takes 5-10 swipes to reach these speeds, so it's kinda easy

my normal fast dominating gaming in quake is 2.4 m/s, against better quake player 2.8/3m/s, at preparing good position for fast hard swipe at desktop 4.7 - 5.6 m/s, according to mousetester 1.2.

Don't know what's so surprising about reaching high speeds?

I manage to malfunction G402 with 2.7m/s without fusion engine on in quake duels, it's happening rarely, but is annoying, most of the time in 7v7 public game usually it's nonmalfunctioning


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> with rival
> 
> with g303 with some hard swipes, usualy takes 5-10 swipes to reach these speeds, so it's kinda easy
> 
> my normal fast dominating gaming in quake is 2.4 m/s, against better quake player 2.8/3m/s, at preparing good position for fast hard swipe at desktop 4.7 - 5.6 m/s, according to mousetester 1.2.
> 
> Don't know what's so surprising about reaching high speeds?
> 
> I manage to malfunction G402 with 2.7m/s without fusion engine on in quake duels, it's happening rarely, but is annoying, most of the time in 7v7 public game usually it's nonmalfunctioning


Ahhh quake. I play CS:GO so I don't have to make 180s as often.


----------



## poros1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> 3.5 m/s ?? How do you people reach those speeds? I couldn't even make a kinzu v2 malfunction with it's 2 m/s...I play with 30.5 cm/360.


I play quake, fingertip grip, and I have a 56 cm/360 (but I use a bit of mouse accel to help). I commonly reach speeds above 3.5 m/s when making quick 180 degree turns with a flick of the wrist.


----------



## trism

Holy. I can top 1.5-2 m/s without lifting my wrist but that severely hurts my hand. Granted, I am using the Rival 100, so a Zowie FK-style higher sensor position with a finger tip grip could show up as a larger movement speed. CBA to do the math.


----------



## mtzgr

We had this discussion before, and I've yet to see anyone post a video of them playing and regularly hitting anywhere near 3 m/s on a regular basis. The one video posted was of jw (?) playing CS as a reference to how fast they move their mouse, yet he was moving nowhere near 3 m/s. If you try to swipe at these speeds you're liable to throw your shoulder out, and yet people are claiming > 4 m/s regularly. Please, post a video, I'd like to see it.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Amusingly there has been no pictures of the internals yet.


barley anyone has the mouse, not to mention the type of person that would be willing to open it up to take pics and all that jazz. i know i wont be.


----------



## SirKnight7

I was considering purchasing this mouse until I saw the sensor they went with. No 3310 or 3366 sensor??


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SirKnight7*
> 
> I was considering purchasing this mouse until I saw the sensor they went with. No 3310 or 3366 sensor??


It's their budget mouse solution a la Kinzu/Kana, so the sensor choice makes perfect sense (to keep it priced low). As long as the Sensei keeps making them money there's no point in them releasing a new flagship.


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> barley anyone has the mouse, not to mention the type of person that would be willing to open it up to take pics and all that jazz. i know i wont be.


h8m3 from esreality has you covered
http://imgur.com/a/tMqAl


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> h8m3 from esreality has you covered
> http://imgur.com/a/tMqAl


Wow it looks so similar to a kinzu. A kinzu with a decent click latency + side buttons.....about freakin time !


----------



## atarii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *poros1ty*
> 
> $30 mouse? Ok, just don't expect to use it for more than a day lol.
> 
> I don't get it. Old and crappy sensor when they are much better sensors on the market. This is why I never buy Steelseries mice. They all suck.
> 
> Why would I go from 3310 to 3050? Maybe if you're a high sens player you can resort to this cheap bad mouse, but if you're a low sens player you can easily hit 3.5 m/s or higher so this mouse is worthless.
> 
> Waste of money folks.


Sorry but this is bull****.
First of all this *"i need a mouse with 40 m/s" otherwise is crap is the dpi scam v2.0.*

- Everyone was fine with the intellimouse that could reach max 1.5 m/s.
- Not so many people reach these speeds. Skadoodle plays with a g100s (2.5 m/s?) with 1.4 sens @ 400 dpi, i dont see him crying. Actually i think he's better now with such a "crappy sensor" (your words). Fyi his old mouse was an fk1, with the "amazing" 3310 and "crispy" huanos. You could argue he's sponsored by logitech and he's forced to use their mice.
So look at Hiko last tournament. He's sponsored by razer and the last mouse he used before joining liquid was a ZA13. I know he changes mice like socks, but the last tourney liquid had was so much important: it was the qualifier for the last major of the year. Infact Adren was using an fk1 (his favourite mouse) and guess what: Hiko decided to use the best mouse he could, the g100s. Fast clicks, responsive sensor, a decent shape. That's all you need.

More than 1 year ago i pointed out the 3310 was bad. I can only confirm that. The 3310 is just an optical 9800. And imho the 9800 is one of the worst sensor in the gaming mice history. Ok, it doesn't have the delay the first batches had, but i still feel the smoothing. The same thing me and a lot of other people can feel on the 3310. And no, it's not placebo. For example on cs go you can hold angles and flick very nice with it, but when you want to follow a target with an high/medium sensitivity the pain starts, it's like if your crosshair is dragging on sand. Now, while i can still perform with it (using a ZA12 for the last 3 months, mainly for the shape), everytime i wanna flank an enemy that is moving it's a pain in the ass while with every other sensor on the earth would be one tap.

3310 pros:
- high speed (6 m/s)
- native dpi steps
- low and adjustable lift off
- only 0.5% positive accel

3310 cons:
- SMOOOOOOOOOOOOTHING.

Now why should i stick with a 3310 mouse if i dont need the 6 m/s?
Will the ss3059 deliver native dpi steps and a low lift off? Yes.

So for me and a lot of other people the rival 100 looks like a better alternative. It has sidebuttons (seriously logitech it's 2015, time to add sidebuttons to your g100s, you did it on the g3 *10 years ago*), a nice shape, it's light and the sensor, if you dont need 9000 m/s and if it doesn't have smoothing (mine will arrive on tuesday) will be better than any 3310. And since i am using a ZA12, the smashable buttons are another huge pros for me. Was a 3320 a better choice? Ofc, the AM010 is my favourite sensor (true aimers want the blooody raw feeling







), but, you know, we can't have it all









TLDR: if you dont need the 3310 max speed, sensors like the am010 (3320) are a lot better. The ss3059 on paper (4 m/s and no smoothing) has everything I need so i dont feel it's a downgrade. Just realize that this "3310 is better because has more maximum speed!!!11" it sounds like Razer when comes out with new products "The new Razer Mamba is the best gaming mouse in the world because it has 20k DPI!!!!11". Who cares if everyone uses 800 max? -.-


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> Sorry but this is bull****.
> First of all this *"i need a mouse with 40 m/s" otherwise is crap is the dpi scam v2.0.*
> 
> - Everyone was fine with the intellimouse that could reach max 1.5 m/s.
> - Not so many people reach these speeds. Skadoodle plays with a g100s (2.5 m/s?) with 1.4 sens @ 400 dpi, i dont see him crying. Actually i think he's better now with such a "crappy sensor" (your words). Fyi his old mouse was an fk1, with the "amazing" 3310 and "crispy" huanos. You could argue he's sponsored by logitech and he's forced to use their mice.
> So look at Hiko last tournament. He's sponsored by razer and the last mouse he used before joining liquid was a ZA13. I know he changes mice like socks, but the last tourney liquid had was so much important: it was the qualifier for the last major of the year. Infact Adren was using an fk1 (his favourite mouse) and guess what: Hiko decided to use the best mouse he could, the g100s. Fast clicks, responsive sensor, a decent shape. That's all you need.
> 
> More than 1 year ago i pointed out the 3310 was bad. I can only confirm that. The 3310 is just an optical 9800. And imho the 9800 is one of the worst sensor in the gaming mice history. Ok, it doesn't have the delay the first batches had, but i still feel the smoothing. The same thing me and a lot of other people can feel on the 3310. And no, it's not placebo. For example on cs go you can hold angles and flick very nicely with it, but when you want to follow a target with an high/medium sensitivity the pain starts, it's like if your crosshair is dragging on sand. Now, while i can still perform with it (using a ZA12 for the last 3 months, mainly for the shape), everytime i wanna flank an enemy that is moving it's a pain in the ass while with every other sensor on the earth would be one tap.
> 
> 3310 pros:
> - high speed (6 m/s)
> - native dpi steps
> - low and adjustable lift off
> - only 0.5% positive accel
> 
> 3310 cons:
> - SMOOOOOOOOOOOOTHING.
> 
> Now why should i stick with a 3310 mouse if i dont need the 6 m/s?
> Will the ss3059 deliver native dpi steps and a low lift off? Yes.
> 
> So for me and a lot of other people the rival 100 looks like a better alternative. It has sidebuttons (seriously logitech it's 2015, time to add sidebuttons to your g100s, you did it on the g3 *10 years ago*), a nice shape, it's light and the sensor, if you dont need 9000 m/s and if it doesn't have smoothing (mine will arrive on tuesday) it will be better than any 3310. And since i am using a ZA12, the smashable buttons are another huge pros for me. Was a 3320 a better choice? Ofc, the AM010 is my favourite sensor (true aimers want the blooody raw feeling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), but, you know, we can't have it all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TLDR: if you dont need the 3310 max speed, sensors like the am010 (3320) are a lot better. The ss3059 on paper (4 m/s and no smoothing) has everything I need so i dont feel it's a downgrade. Just realize that this "3310 is better because has more maximum speed!!!11" it sounds like Razer when comes out with new products "The new Razer Mamba is the best gaming mouse in the world because it has 20k DPI!!!!11". Who cares if everyone uses 800 max? -.-


People here do not have much knowledge, thinking the 3310 is so amazing just because of the max speed. In fact, if one thinks 3310 is "best" or "really good" then it proves how little knowledge they really have.

For me personally no accel/SRAV, more stable polling rate and raw performance/less smoothing/more responsive cursor is way more important than malfunction speed. For example, the 3050 or the am010 would provide that, depending on the implementation.

Also, iirc 3050 was released approximately at the same time as 3310.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

So @woll3, can Roccat do something like this and just stamp the "Pro Optic R2" name on a 3050 sensor?


----------



## Aventadoor

Lets not forget that its Steelseries we are talkin about.
Their implementation is most likly garbagecan.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> So @woll3, can Roccat do something like this and just stamp the "Pro Optic R2" name on a 3050 sensor?


?

Casing is still branded A3050 unless something has changed from Lua as "Pro Optic R2" is just a marketing designation.


----------



## Aventadoor

Anyone, so for those who have it, how are the clicks? Easy? responsive? Low click latency?
Rival/300 has great click latency, but not great for spamming.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> raw performance/less smoothing/more responsive cursor


If i don't mention this in every thread of mice, doesn't mean i don't notice it in game.

And yeah, this is what i was worried about too, DAMN STEELSERIES, no 1600 dpi option, are you damn kidding me? So difficult to put 1600dpi in mouse options?

Question can i keep mousepad for myself if i will want to return mouse, i will use it to decorate christmas tree, or change neighbours carpet near doors.

Steelseries reads this* and releases Rival 101 in 2 years (when they get all rival 100 sold if not later) with 1600 dpi and exclusive sensor ADNS-3061 and 50 euro price tag


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> Sorry but this is bull****.
> First of all this *"i need a mouse with 40 m/s" otherwise is crap is the dpi scam v2.0.*
> 
> - Everyone was fine with the intellimouse that could reach max 1.5 m/s.
> - Not so many people reach these speeds. Skadoodle plays with a g100s (2.5 m/s?) with 1.4 sens @ 400 dpi, i dont see him crying. Actually i think he's better now with such a "crappy sensor" (your words). Fyi his old mouse was an fk1, with the "amazing" 3310 and "crispy" huanos. You could argue he's sponsored by logitech and he's forced to use their mice.
> So look at Hiko last tournament. He's sponsored by razer and the last mouse he used before joining liquid was a ZA13. I know he changes mice like socks, but the last tourney liquid had was so much important: it was the qualifier for the last major of the year. Infact Adren was using an fk1 (his favourite mouse) and guess what: Hiko decided to use the best mouse he could, the g100s. Fast clicks, responsive sensor, a decent shape. That's all you need.
> 
> More than 1 year ago i pointed out the 3310 was bad. I can only confirm that. The 3310 is just an optical 9800. And imho the 9800 is one of the worst sensor in the gaming mice history. Ok, it doesn't have the delay the first batches had, but i still feel the smoothing. The same thing me and a lot of other people can feel on the 3310. And no, it's not placebo. For example on cs go you can hold angles and flick very nice with it, but when you want to follow a target with an high/medium sensitivity the pain starts, it's like if your crosshair is dragging on sand. Now, while i can still perform with it (using a ZA12 for the last 3 months, mainly for the shape), everytime i wanna flank an enemy that is moving it's a pain in the ass while with every other sensor on the earth would be one tap.
> 
> 3310 pros:
> - high speed (6 m/s)
> - native dpi steps
> - low and adjustable lift off
> - only 0.5% positive accel
> 
> 3310 cons:
> - SMOOOOOOOOOOOOTHING.
> 
> Now why should i stick with a 3310 mouse if i dont need the 6 m/s?
> Will the ss3059 deliver native dpi steps and a low lift off? Yes.
> 
> So for me and a lot of other people the rival 100 looks like a better alternative. It has sidebuttons (seriously logitech it's 2015, time to add sidebuttons to your g100s, you did it on the g3 *10 years ago*), a nice shape, it's light and the sensor, if you dont need 9000 m/s and if it doesn't have smoothing (mine will arrive on tuesday) will be better than any 3310. And since i am using a ZA12, the smashable buttons are another huge pros for me. Was a 3320 a better choice? Ofc, the AM010 is my favourite sensor (true aimers want the blooody raw feeling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), but, you know, we can't have it all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TLDR: if you dont need the 3310 max speed, sensors like the am010 (3320) are a lot better. The ss3059 on paper (4 m/s and no smoothing) has everything I need so i dont feel it's a downgrade. Just realize that this "3310 is better because has more maximum speed!!!11" it sounds like Razer when comes out with new products "The new Razer Mamba is the best gaming mouse in the world because it has 20k DPI!!!!11". Who cares if everyone uses 800 max? -.-


Hiko played his best last year during the summer in which he was dominating at majors ESL One Cologne (aka the event where "omg hiko are you kidding me") and the ESEA LAN finals where coL beat NiP, VP, and Navi in bo3s....

During that time he was using a kinzu v2 rubberized black with that bad sensor that can only handle 2 m/s AND the atrocious button latency 22ms over logitech mice.


----------



## Sencha

Lets put that vid here as such a great moment./

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCqsIwF085U


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Lets put that vid here as such a great moment./
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCqsIwF085U


Clearly he didn't hit 2 m/s or the kinzu v2 would've ruined the round lol.


----------



## TriviumKM

To be fair, Hiko uses something like 25cm / 360 so of course he wouldn't hit malfunction on the g100s or the Kinzu. Skadoodle also uses 800 dpi at 1.4, not 400, so he too uses a high enough sens to negate the g100s' 2.7.


----------



## a_ak57

Well, there's not much point in talking about CS players anyway. The people who talk about needing high speeds generally play stuff like quake.


----------



## atarii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> *Hiko played his best last year during the summer in which he was dominating at majors ESL One Cologne (aka the event where "omg hiko are you kidding me")* and the ESEA LAN finals where coL beat NiP, VP, and Navi in bo3s....
> 
> During that time he was using a kinzu v2 rubberized black with that bad sensor that can only handle 2 m/s AND the atrocious button latency 22ms over logitech mice.


1) I took Hiko as an example because he changes mice a lot so he has tried almost every mouse out there. And yet he decided to use the g100s and the logitech hard pad for the most important tournament he would have played this year.

2) *On ESL One Cologne 2014 Hiko used the g100s, just zoom his hand*

http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/6124-full/1408222116.2337.jpeg

guess what, same setup he used some days ago @ cluj qualifier

so my point still stand


----------



## Maximillion

My Rival 100 arrived about an hour ago. I've done nothing but plug it in and use it to navigate Windows so far, but some quick initial thoughts...

-Shape: Essentially nailed it, ambi users will have little to gripe about imo. I'd actually consider it usable in all 3 grips (fingertip feels most natural to me, 20cm hands)

-Size: Very much in the Kana range as what you'd heard. Very similar to my ZA12.

-Weight: Feels heavier than the ZA12, but also feels sturdier (build quality quite good tbh)

-Coating/Grips: Both are decent but time (and in-game use) will tell. Side grips aren't the basketball-like rubber (Castor, DA, Rival 300) but hard-plastic like the Abby '14.

-Clicks: ehhh...not _the_ worst, gonna take a bit of getting used to for a fair analysis.

-Sensor: Obviously will get into this more later. Just had to plant my flag since I actually have it in-hand now.


----------



## atarii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> To be fair, Hiko uses something like 25cm / 360 so of course he wouldn't hit malfunction on the g100s or the Kinzu. Skadoodle also uses 800 dpi at 1.4, not 400, so he too uses a high enough sens to negate the g100s' 2.7.


Didnt know about Skadoodle, guess the spreadsheet where i found the data was wrong. Anyway i am pretty sure n0thing (g100s) uses something beetween 1.7/[email protected] and it's not like he's missing shots because of the sensor.

That said i agree that people with a really low sens can benefit from the 3310 but i dont understand why sensors with less maximum speed but with other advantages should be called bad/old/crappy and so on


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> Didnt know about Skadoodle, guess the spreadsheet where i found the data was wrong. Anyway i am pretty sure n0thing (g100s) uses something beetween 1.7/[email protected] and it's not like he's missing shots.
> 
> That said i agree that people with a really low sens can benefit from the 3310 but i dont understand why sensor with less maximum speed but with other advantages should be called bad/old/crappy and so on


I actually agree with your overall point, was just pointing out that they play with a high enough sens to get around the speed thing. As far as nothing goes he let it slip on stream that he had a custom g100s with different internals (probably the 3366), but i doubt he'd admit it now if asked as Logitech is a sponsor. So whether or not he's using a "stock" g100s or a custom one is up in the air at this point imo.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Well, there's not much point in talking about CS players anyway. The people who talk about needing high speeds generally play stuff like quake.


Still in 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rce75JYlJd8&t=19m08s


----------



## DadeBound

Yea I remember hearing about the Custom G100s from n0things stream. I also more recently heard tarik talking about possibly asking Razer to put the DeathAdder Chroma sensor into a Abyssus. Seems that most pro's with the big sponsors can go ahead and ask for such things. Imagine Fnatic asking for Sensei' with 3310's









Sorry for going off topic


----------



## qsxcv

if you look around a bit you can piece together what's actually in n0thing's mouse

hint: cpate and woll3 didnt lie when they said it's an am010


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> if you look around a bit you can piece together what's actually in n0thing's mouse
> 
> hint: cpate and woll3 didnt lie when they said it's an am010


Would it be a lie if it were an am010, but with the gyro like the 402?! hmm








Jokes aside i actually forgot cpate and woll3 confirmed it was the am010 he was using.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> if you look around a bit you can piece together what's actually in n0thing's mouse
> 
> hint: cpate and woll3 didnt lie when they said it's an am010


Less smoothing, much higher tracking speed and 1000Hz polling. It might be using the am010 but it's very different from the G100s that's being sold to consumers. If someone wants to buy the mouse that their favorite professional uses then they shouldn't be tricked into buying something very different.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Still in 2015:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rce75JYlJd8&t=19m08s


I didn't say literally everyone who plays quake needs high malfunction speed and can't use mice that don't provide that, just that the need is more prevalent in something like Quake than CS. Though from what I recall the WMO's malfunctioning comes in the form of tracking without perfect accuracy/not tracking rather than sending your aim somewhere random which is the real problem. People who want 4m/s aren't saying they routinely aim at those speeds, they just whip the mouse sometimes and don't want to be staring at the ground/sky.

I do think people would be surprised in both directions if they monitored their speed during some games. Typically I don't even reach 2m/s (I play CSGO) but once in a while I'll hit 3-4 because I hear something behind me and freak out and whip the mouse. So malfunction speed doesn't generally matter to me, but occasionally it does. I imagine if I got back into UT or something I would have a higher average speed and hit that 3-4 mark more often.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> 1) I took Hiko as an example because he changes mice a lot so he has tried almost every mouse out there. And yet he decided to use the g100s and the logitech hard pad for the most important tournament he would have played this year.
> 
> 2) *On ESL One Cologne 2014 Hiko used the g100s, just zoom his hand*
> 
> http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/6124-full/1408222116.2337.jpeg
> 
> guess what, same setup he used some days ago @ cluj qualifier
> 
> so my point still stand


Oh, I had it mixed up with EMS One Katowice 2014. He was using the kinzu v2 before the c9 sponsorship and the g100s. Hiko was stomping international teams at the time and continued with c9/g100s.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> My Rival 100 arrived about an hour ago. I've done nothing but plug it in and use it to navigate Windows so far, but some quick initial thoughts...
> 
> -Shape: Essentially nailed it, ambi users will have little to gripe about imo. I'd actually consider it usable in all 3 grips (fingertip feels most natural to me, 20cm hands)
> 
> -Size: Very much in the Kana range as what you'd heard. Very similar to my ZA12.
> 
> -Weight: Feels heavier than the ZA12, but also feels sturdier (build quality quite good tbh)
> 
> -Coating/Grips: Both are decent but time (and in-game use) will tell. Side grips aren't the basketball-like rubber (Castor, DA, Rival 300) but hard-plastic like the Abby '14.
> 
> -Clicks: ehhh...not _the_ worst, gonna take a bit of getting used to for a fair analysis.
> 
> -Sensor: Obviously will get into this more later. Just had to plant my flag since I actually have it in-hand now.


Is it the same shape as the kana/kinzu?


----------



## TriviumKM

Not to mention Raphas sens is like 19 cm PLUS accel, he could pretty much get away with an office mouse speed wise.


----------



## Nivity

I like the size of it, but the clicks are hm quite bad.
Are they even using the SS switches? Because rival have way better feedback.

I guess the shell ruins the clicks, because they have bad feedback / feel, a ton worse then my KPM.

Size is perfect for me, love the shape.
Coating is smooth on top which I like, and ok on the sides. Not slippery for me that never sweat on my hands.

Will evaluate the sensor later, have not had the time to even try it yet








Clicks feel really bad just from clicking it though, so dealbreaker for me possibly.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Is it the same shape as the kana/kinzu?


I'd say so. Very much that classic SS shape which is good imo. I'd say it's a bit my comfortable to hold than the Kana because there are no large side buttons on opposite side.

The top coating of the mouse is very good. It just feels nice to the touch w/o being as fingerprint/residue prone as Mionix's. I am also liking the side-grips. They work for both wet and dry hands from my subjective testing, which is a somewhat rare feat. Side-button placement and pressure requirement is nice, allowing you to roll your thumb over either button easily w/o compromising your grip.


----------



## Nivity

It is bigger then Kinzu, same size at kana but easier to grip.
KPM -> Kana v2 -> Rival100


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> It is bigger then Kinzu, same size at kana but easier to grip.
> KPM -> Kana v2 -> Rival100


Does the back protruding out on the Rival 100 bother you at all? Does it become harder to wrap your thumb around the mouse? I know for the Rival 300 alot of people were haivng issue with the bottom left side of the mouse where it was digging into the thumb.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I like the size of it, but the clicks are hm quite bad.
> Are they even using the SS switches? Because rival have way better feedback.
> 
> I guess the shell ruins the clicks, because they have bad feedback / feel, a ton worse then my KPM.
> 
> Size is perfect for me, love the shape.
> Coating is smooth on top which I like, and ok on the sides. Not slippery for me that never sweat on my hands.
> 
> Will evaluate the sensor more from testing. But the clicks might be a dealbreaker for me.


Yeah I'm in the same place with this mouse atm, loving the shape and overall in-hand feel just wish the clicks were a bit more "crisp".


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Yeah I'm in the same place with this mouse atm, loving the shape and overall in-hand feel just wish the clicks were a bit more "crisp".


So they're mushier. What about latency?


----------



## Acknown3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I like the size of it, but the clicks are hm quite bad.
> Are they even using the SS switches? Because rival have way better feedback.
> 
> I guess the shell ruins the clicks, because they have bad feedback / feel, a ton worse then my KPM.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Clicks feel really bad just from clicking it though, so dealbreaker for me possibly.


Damn. I got a coupon worth $60 credit on the SS website and was considering the R100, but after seeing this, I might just have to order another R300. I do prefer the larger shape anyway. Does anyone know if there are any differences in the silver model aside from the shell color?


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Is it the same shape as the kana/kinzu?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> My Rival 100 arrived about an hour ago. I've done nothing but plug it in and use it to navigate Windows so far, but some quick initial thoughts...
> 
> ...
> 
> -Size: Very much in the Kana range as what you'd heard. Very similar to my ZA12.
> 
> ...
> 
> -Grips: ... hard-plastic like the Abby '14.


Abyssus 14 has good side grips, if it's like aby14, it's awesome.

Kana was good, but ruined by unisolated mouse1 & mouse2 and only 1 side button on the left instead of 2, you can enjoy cutting teammates with mouse2 while hitting it accidently in csgo by gripping too hard, and hear them moaning in your ears during game, sweet.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Less smoothing, much higher tracking speed and 1000Hz polling. It might be using the am010 but it's very different from the G100s that's being sold to consumers. If someone wants to buy the mouse that their favorite professional uses then they shouldn't be tricked into buying something very different.


You wouldnt design and build a new car just to test a new engine or would you?


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I like the size of it, but the clicks are hm quite bad....
> 
> Clicks feel really bad just from clicking it though, so dealbreaker for me possibly.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Yeah I'm in the same place with this mouse atm, loving the shape and overall in-hand feel just wish the clicks were a bit more "crisp".


How do they compare to Zowie's clicks? Harder?


----------



## ronal

I just finished soldering Omron switches and its so much better now. I also replaced the mouse feet with Puretrak IME3.0 skates and it lowered my LOD to about 2cds.


----------



## trism

My Rivals clicks are much better now after a few days of use. The 'shallow' sound is gone; I really prefer these over KPMs OMRONs. Easier to time semi-autos and stay in pace. Would have never thought I would like this mouse as much as I do.


----------



## a_ak57

Got mine in and I have to agree with recent sentiment about the clicks. They're...gross. It feels like they took some huanos and dropped them in molasses. Still assessing shape but it seems to be the standard Steelseries shape. Would prefer a more pronounced rear, not that I was expecting it.


----------



## mtzgr

Here are initial impressions of the mouse, comparing it with the FK1 that I've been using for the past couple weeks. When I mention the Sensei I'm referring to the vanilla version, the RAW is a pos.

*Shape*: More comfortable than the FK1, fills my hand better. Hump is at back of the mouse instead of the middle, and it isn't as long as the FK1. I claw/palm and this offers better grip for where I pinch my ring finger against the side (I lift often). I actually really like the shape, but I prefer the larger Sensei (though I sold mine off and can't directly compare the two).

*Coating*: There's three different textures. Top side soft rubber, hard plastic sides (a la DA13+), and glossy plastic with hard plastic stipling for grips on either side. I would prefer it if they would forgo the stippling and just have it all hard plastic, but it's not that bad. The rubber is nice.

*Buttons*: Same switches on the Rival. They are mushy, but not as bad as when used with the Rival 300 because you have more leverage (I guess is what I'd call it) when pressing M1/M2 because of the shape. M4/M5 action is crisp but hollow sounding, and I don't really care for protruding buttons; not a big deal. M1/2 rattle a bit when bringing the mouse down on the desk if your fingers aren't resting on them. I lift my mouse often so it's kind of annoying, but the mouse feels solid. I probably favor the Huano switches because they're more crisp, but they both lose out to Omrons anyway. The SS aren't unusable though, I can get used to them.

*Scrollwheel*: Very nice, suits my purposes well. It's like the Sensei's but rubbery (softer) and not as stiff. Best scrollwheel I've used in terms of scroll action is probably the G402.

*LOD*: Not good, but not terrible.
*Cable*: They're copying the Zowie cable and it's a great decision. Slightly thinner than the Zowie cable but just as pliable. A+
*Feet*: The glide is rough compared to the FK1, mouse makes a lot of noise running over a QcK. Good if you like control.
*Weight*: Don't have a scale but it's pretty close to the FK1, maybe a little heavier. Fine for me.

Off to play.


----------



## trism

There could be QC issues but I have used two Rival 100s and both have good clicks. Definitely less stiff than the Huanos on FK orig. Mine were wonky initially as I mentioned but the hollowness disappeared completely. Granted, I am probably a weirdo when it comes to clicks as I really hate the clicks on g30x







No opposing force so I am constantly clicking them by accident.


----------



## Maximillion

Sacrificed the shoulder for this one. Just trying to push/test the sensor. Analyze as you may.


----------



## qsxcv

wat
5+m/s???


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> wat
> 5+m/s???


Alas, for the 500 step. The 1000 step on the other hand...



not quite as flattering.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Alas, for the 500 step. The 1000 step on the other hand...not quite as flattering.


The LOD seems better on 500 as well, though that may just be perceived because of less movement.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Alas, for the 500 step. The 1000 step on the other hand...
> 
> 
> 
> not quite as flattering.


weird... one would imagine they would use the 12bit motion report mode and not run into this issue.
can you plot xcounts? or upload logs


----------



## Maximillion

Different swipe but yeah. log's attached.


log.csv 7k .csv file


----------



## qsxcv

nice thanks
do you mind posting the log for a long ~2m/s swipe at 500dpi? also mspaint pencil drawings at 1000dpi to see if it's really as bad as we suspected


----------



## daav1d

Some new colors http://www.maxgaming.se/Sok?q=Rival%20100


----------



## daav1d

Looks like glossy shells on some of the new ones. Maybe will try it out.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> Some new colors http://www.maxgaming.se/Sok?q=Rival%20100


WOW

*** steelseries. I just bought their standard black mouse and NOW they release glossy versions??? )#*%!)%*!)%!*%[email protected]*%[email protected]%!


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> Some new colors http://www.maxgaming.se/Sok?q=Rival%20100


All ugly except white/orange+black and standard


----------



## Arc0s

If this is rival 100 and the original rival is rival 300 now, you guys think maybe rival 200 will be a sensei style rival?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> nice thanks
> do you mind posting the log for a long ~2m/s swipe at 500dpi? also mspaint pencil drawings at 1000dpi to see if it's really as bad as we suspected


I'm really bad at the paint stuff



Doesn't seem too horrible though. Will still likely use it exclusively at 500 dpi.

log2.csv 9k .csv file


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> Some new colors http://www.maxgaming.se/Sok?q=Rival%20100


Well, at the least there are options. If it were available on the SS site at time of purchase, I probably would've got the "Gaia Green" for the lulz. But honestly the Kana v2-esque white is the best looking.


----------



## qsxcv

hm this is kind of weird

seems like may a very weak form of angle snapping: once you start moving in a straight line, you need to shift 2 pixels away to stop moving straight

from log2, i'm not completely sure since there's a lot of noise, but it's probably that this sensor has higher framerate than 6666 (which is what 3050 should be according to datasheet). ~7500 or ~8500


----------



## wareya

if that's how it works then it can't have a runaway effect (throwing away slow tangential movements permanently) so it should be ok

nobody is precise to a single count in games

We need to differentiate these similar sensor flaws better. Normal angle snapping counts as prediction, but this doesn't.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> All ugly except white/orange+black and standard


Need RGB braided cable


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I'm really bad at the paint stuff
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't seem too horrible though. Will still likely use it exclusively at 500 dpi.
> 
> log2.csv 9k .csv file


Is it just me or does this look basically like the kinzu v2 paint tests?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> if that's how it works then it can't have a runaway effect (throwing away slow tangential movements permanently) so it should be ok
> 
> nobody is precise to a single count in games
> 
> We need to differentiate these similar sensor flaws better. Normal angle snapping counts as prediction, but this doesn't.


yea. i wonder if the effect is still only one pixel at 500 and 2000dpi
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> Need RGB braided cable


+1 great idea


----------



## kicksome

Does it feel different to a newmen gx1? I cant say i like that shape much


----------



## mtzgr

Overall I think it's a pretty good mouse, and it would probably be a good option for some. Played on 500 and 1000dpi with a QcK, 49.5cm/360. Two main things keep me from using it (and considering it further) over the FK1:

1. I can't drive the mouse very hard. I flick a lot and beat mice up, but for whatever reason I can't get comfortable with this mouse. I move around much slower than with mice like the FK1, G400, G502, EC2, Aurora, etc.
2. The mouse drags a lot (probable contributing factor to 1). I'm accurate short distances and corrections, but when I go for long flicks I'm consistently undershooting. New feet or pad might remedy this, but I don't find the mouse so appealing that I'm willing to work around its flaws.

I think the sensor performs well but I can't really put it through its paces because the mouse itself can't keep up with my playstyle, but it was pretty accurate with no major tracking issues that popped up. I'd like to be able to say something like 3310 > 3059 but I think it'd be unfair because the mouse itself seems to get in the way of me objectively evaluating the sensor in game. So my opinion is FK1 > Rival 100 but not necessarily 3310 > 3059 (though this is just a 3050 propped up to 4000 dpi and made to play nice in Engine3, right?).

The buttons are meh but I might have been able to live with them; I'm not in love with Huanos but I like them better than SS. I feel like the multiple coatings hurt the mouse--I'd much rather them go all rubber or all plastic, and lose the stippling. Side buttons and LOD suck, but they made some good changes with with the scrollwheel and cord, and I like the shape. For $35-40 and a mousepad it's a good deal imo.


----------



## aerowalk30

Gunna skip this mouse, sick of the SS switches and swapping them out for Omrons. SS become a waste of my time.

Not to say I'm not happy with their older mice but these SS switches and continuously having to buy Omrons just ruins everything for me. Mushy mice can go to hell.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> WOW
> 
> *** steelseries. I just bought their standard black mouse and NOW they release glossy versions??? )#*%!)%*!)%!*%[email protected]*%[email protected]%!


Indeed WOW I bet some people could be really pissed off by this.
If you have dry hands especially a glossy version is way nicer.


----------



## cmquickfire




----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*


I got dry hands but hopefully it will be alright with matte. The thing is gloss sticks to my hands but I don't actually like the feeling.


----------



## Nivity

I have no problem with it being slippery and I am dry as a desert on my hands.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I have no problem with it being slippery and I am dry as a desert on my hands.


Good to know. I only need gloss if the shape ins't a great fit.


----------



## discoprince

i love the steelseries gloss coating i kind of wish they posted these new coatings _before_ i ordered from ss. oh well, it will be here tomorow!


----------



## Sencha

Its a pretty cheap mouse. Just work out if you like it then grab another if its good.


----------



## Nivity

The bumps on the sides actually help a lot with the grip.
Even if it is plastic.

For example the Kana v2 black I could not get a grip on the sides, KPM was very slippery first month before the coating got worn in.

If they used the same coating on the sides as the top then It would be very slippery for my dry hands, so smart move.

The LOD is quite high though on my Zowie GTF-X.
It's slightly lower on QCK heavy. Tried some tape but there is a small raise around the sensor, so the tape drags some on the pad, which is a no go.
The skatez are somewhat meh, hoping Tiger/hotline will make some, might fix the LOD a bit as well with 0.6mm.


----------



## Kitarist

Hope i'm getting mine tomorrow


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> hm this is kind of weird
> 
> seems like may a very weak form of angle snapping: once you start moving in a straight line, you need to shift 2 pixels away to stop moving straight
> 
> from log2, i'm not completely sure since there's a lot of noise, but it's probably that this sensor has higher framerate than 6666 (which is what 3050 should be according to datasheet). ~7500 or ~8500


ah, so it's still there with the sensor...

(from more than 1 1/2 years ago):


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

How good is this mouse in terms of latency? Both sensor and click latency pls.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> How good is this mouse in terms of latency? Both sensor and click latency pls.


Read the thread?


----------



## qsxcv

305x shouldn't have any smoothing
i dont think there is mcu smoothing based on those plots
so tracking latency should be fine i.e. <1ms


----------



## pandalf

How do the switches feel compared to Huanos? I'm looking for something quieter and easier to click since Huanos are just too stiff for my taste.


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pandalf*
> 
> How do the switches feel compared to Huanos? I'm looking for something quieter and easier to click since Huanos are just too stiff for my taste.


Very mushy and pretty hard.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pandalf*
> 
> How do the switches feel compared to Huanos? I'm looking for something quieter and easier to click since Huanos are just too stiff for my taste.


Clicks are consistent, not to hard, but it feels as if the mouse its "body" needs more firm clicking then previous SS mice I've used.

Similar results on 500 dpi / 1000 dpi as posted earlier.

I recon this might become a really neat mouse at 500 dpi, but beyond it, it feels horrible (jumps around like crazy even trying to select a single pixel on the desktop). This is most likely going to be "500 dpi or bust".

The shape is the most positive thing though, probably the best one I've ever held in my hands.

EDIT:

Ingame however 1000 dpi feels much more manageable in a 3D environment... hmmz. Also it doesn't seem to malfunction at 4 m/s (though no perfect control at 4 m/s). Behaves a bit like the MX518: http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=14


----------



## pandalf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Clicks are consistent, not to hard, but it feels as if the mouse its "body" needs more firm clicking then previous SS mice I've used.
> 
> Similar results on 500 dpi / 1000 dpi as posted earlier.
> 
> I recon this might become a really neat mouse at 500 dpi, but beyond it, it feels horrible (jumps around like crazy even trying to select a single pixel on the desktop). This is most likely going to be "500 dpi or bust".
> 
> The shape is the most positive thing though, probably the best one I've ever held in my hands.


I really like the shape and size too. I'm currently using a A4Tech Bloody V3 (with Pixart 3305DK) which is too heavy, the switches feel stiff and I think the sensor is worse than the one in the Rival 100. If I get a Rival 100, I'll be able to play shooters on 500 DPI, but in other games (mobas and such) I'll need to use it at 1000 DPI. If it's really that horrible at >500 DPI, I'll consider buying something else.


----------



## Jaju123

Angle snapping?


----------



## CorruptBE

Movement feels much more natural at 500 dpi though, went from 24% back to my usual accuracy at 500:
http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/battlereport/show/1/656170636486635584/329862722/

Time will tell, shape is definitely a big plus, but everything else still feels a bit doubtful.

Also, yes it feels like there's some angle snapping? Can't quite put my finger on it, feels weird, unnatural. It's almost as if I'm using a low FOV bot with this mouse, as if it "sticks" to the targets I aim at, but at the same time it doesn't feel as controlled as a 3366 or 9500 even.

Skates are also to thin, bottom surrounding sensor/lens scrapes from time to time.


----------



## discoprince

just got mine, first impressions:

shape is nice.
cable is great.
glides really well on a zowie G-SR, no scraping like other peoples reports. the feet could be thicker though.
button clicks are just ok (was using a G302 before this, ok is pretty good compared to that mouse's clicks)
scroll wheel is ok.
i wish the side buttons protruded out a bit more, the forward one is almost flush with the side of the shell, the back one comes out far enough.
no 800 dpi step.
could be lighter.
low lift off distance, which is great for me.
i like the top and side grip coating.

will post back in a couple weeks with a review.


----------



## pandalf

How much does it weigh? Some sites say it's 120g, but is that with or without the cable?


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pandalf*
> 
> How much does it weigh? Some sites say it's 120g, but is that with or without the cable?


90gram without cord.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> no 800 dpi step.


How could they...


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> How could they...


yeah i thought originally you could customize your dpi and you can but you can only choose between preset steps and 800 is not one of them. 1000 is ok for me. i was used to the 1150 dpi step on the ec2 evo cl before moving to 800 anyway.


----------



## CorruptBE

I think prediction is the culprit for this weird feeling.

If so, I'd consider using it long term if they reduced it (at least at 500 dpi).


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Clicks are consistent, not to hard, but it feels as if the mouse its "body" needs more firm clicking then previous SS mice I've used.
> 
> Similar results on 500 dpi / 1000 dpi as posted earlier.
> 
> I recon this might become a really neat mouse at 500 dpi, but beyond it, it feels horrible (jumps around like crazy even trying to select a single pixel on the desktop). This is most likely going to be "500 dpi or bust".
> 
> The shape is the most positive thing though, probably the best one I've ever held in my hands.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Ingame however 1000 dpi feels much more manageable in a 3D environment... hmmz. Also it doesn't seem to malfunction at 4 m/s (though no perfect control at 4 m/s). Behaves a bit like the MX518: http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=14


How would you compare the shape to ZA? Does it feel a lot lower than it? How is the perceivable width/ height?


----------



## CorruptBE

I haven't used a ZA, but a bit better then a FK2. Though I'd probably rate the sensor way better in the FK2.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I haven't used a ZA, but a bit better then a FK2. Though I'd probably rate the sensor way better in the FK2.


Well you should, in the FK2 3310 verses the Rival 100 - 3050, there's enough mouse geeks here on OCN that would agree that the current sensor in the Rival 100 is crap compared to any type of 3310 sensor.

Now we need to wait and see who has the balls to gut their Rival 100 and replace it's sensor with a 3310







.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> How would you compare the shape to ZA? Does it feel a lot lower than it? How is the perceivable width/ height?


Hump is definitely less prominent than the ZA series. If you've used something like the Sensei before it's like that, a fairly traditional arc. Width feels pretty good for the size of the mouse.


----------



## bond10

I just got mine.

This feels VERY similar to a Zowie FK in terms of shape and size, but with a better mouse wheel, softer clicks (not mushy like DA2013), no smoothing, and RGB which is cool.

The drawbacks - the top coating is super slippery for dry hands, the LOD is stupid high

Overall very satisfied.


----------



## paers

I could be far more explicit about how I feel of the raised area around the sensor aperture scraping every cloth pad I own, but let's just say I'm so done with stoolseries. I'm now fully convinced they intentionally leave some design flaws in.


----------



## Nivity

The buttons are so bad compared to my KPM which is crisp with good feedback yet lighter to press.
Sidebuttons are a joke









1000dpi still feels somewhat bad, not unusable but not that great either.

I will give it 1 more week before I put it in the graveyard and goes back to my KPM in wait for roccats new mice


----------



## trhead

That's it, I'm ordering the Xtrfy XG-M2 and another Newmen gx1pro. Steelseries just can't get it right, Its like they are doing it on purpose. I'm done with SS for now.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Steelseries just can't get it right, Its like they are doing it on purpose. I'm done with SS for now.


Everyone says that, but they all come back when a new model is released







.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> That's it, I'm ordering the Xtrfy XG-M2 and another Newmen gx1pro. Steelseries just can't get it right, Its like they are doing it on purpose. I'm done with SS for now.


How much are you paying for the XG-M2?


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> How much are you paying for the XG-M2?


It'll be expensive. Probably $100+ AUD.


----------



## Kitarist

Just received the mouse i would say its an ok mouse. What's interesting is to achieve the same speed movement as on my MX518 (800DPI) it needs to be set to 1500CPI.

I gonna test it some more


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I recon this might become a really neat mouse at 500 dpi, but beyond it, it feels horrible (jumps around like crazy even trying to select a single pixel on the desktop).
> This is most likely going to be "500 dpi or bust".


welcome to almost 2016...


----------



## Sencha

Should get mine today. Looks like it might take the spot of back-up mouse judging by some of the comments. I'm fine with that though it was like 25 quid....with mouse mat.


----------



## Sencha

Got it and first impressions are much better then I thought.

The good

-Build quality actually probably best I've seen on a mouse of this price. Fit and finish just great all over
-Scroll wheel better then my ZA11 and feels like the rivals
-No gloss on the base its that nice textured plastic.
-Zero rattle
-Clicks are nice. Not as nice as Zowies but above average for me
-Shape is sex
-Very bendy upbraided cable
-Keeping up with my movements at 70cm/360 even on fast 180s. (Will double check this later after some caffeine)

The bad

-Would have liked it a few grams lighter
-LOD is high
-Skates very sharp and make the mouse extremely slow on cloth. Swapping them for 1.1/3,0 skates solves this problem straight away but poor show from SS

Much better then I thought. And I'll use it for a while to see how it goes. Will certainly be holding on to it in case my daily driver poos the bed.


----------



## MLJS54

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Got it and first impressions are much better then I thought.
> 
> The good
> 
> -Build quality actually probably best I've seen on a mouse of this price. Fit and finish just great all over
> -Scroll wheel better then my ZA11 and feels like the rivals
> -No gloss on the base its that nice textured plastic.
> -Zero rattle
> -Clicks are nice. Not as nice as Zowies but above average for me
> -Shape is sex
> -Very bendy upbraided cable
> -Keeping up with my movements at 70cm/360 even on fast 180s. (Will double check this later after some caffeine)
> 
> The bad
> 
> -Would have liked it a few grams lighter
> -LOD is high
> -Skates very sharp and make the mouse extremely slow on cloth. Swapping them for 1.1/3,0 skates solves this problem straight away but poor show from SS
> 
> Much better then I thought. And I'll use it for a while to see how it goes. Will certainly be holding on to it in case my daily driver poos the bed.


Do you know if I'll be able to throw on my extra set of DA Hyperglides onto the R100? Not sure if you have a DA to compare the shape of the pieces. Got my R100 coming later this week.


----------



## Nivity

The feet are indeed garbage.
It's like dragging it in a swamp compared to my KPM









You can feel that they are low quality feet just by touching them, bad glide.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MLJS54*
> 
> Do you know if I'll be able to throw on my extra set of DA Hyperglides onto the R100? Not sure if you have a DA to compare the shape of the pieces. Got my R100 coming later this week.


I don't I'm afraid but if you're on cloth you will need some after market skates unless you hate yourself.

Sensor wise the mouse seems serviceable. Its not quite as nice feeling as the 3310 but you could certainly get used to it. Will be good to tide me over till the final mouse comes out thats for sure.


----------



## Ufasas

-LOD is high. Biggest worry before adding this to my collection of potential mice to be used in fps games from time to time.
- no 800 dpi, no 1600 dpi x(

Arrived 30 minutes ago, I wasn't at home, running to UPS courier point to pick it up today soon, can't wait to test. Also found read another thread about improved entry level sensor 3320 having CMS Xornet 2 with 3m/s has more features, even adjustable without software LOD, and then again, no 800 dpi and 1600 dpi. Stupid 500 / 750 / 1000 / 1500 dpi festival AGAIN, soon to be released, damn i love xornet too, would love to compare to Rival, has a lot of good points, and some cons too compared to Rival 100.


----------



## Sencha

I've double stacked some 3.0 feet on mine. Has help with the LOD


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> I've double stacked some 3.0 feet on mine. Has help with the LOD


Applied 4 x 0.8mm h-glide skates ie 3.0 too, kills high LOD drastically, feels like vanilla Rival LOD with default skates, max speed @ 500 dpi 500 mhz ~ 3.85 m/s, @ 1500 dpi 500 mhz ~ 2.15m/s , 1000 dpi and 2000 dpi do not give similar speeds as with 500 dpi.. oh gosh..

No rattle in any part of mouse.

Shape is just like polished FK / FK2, love it.

Rubber cable is like zowie's / aby2014, love it

Feet are ok, don't know, why others raise the fuss about it.

Clicks feel good, better than zowie fk.

Snake skin side grips are better than I thought, like aby2014, a tad slippery, but not a tragedy. Somehow makes me think i am holding a AbyFK 2015, lol.

Back ass doesn't fill my palm fully, i predict repositioning the way of grip in hot game moments ocassionaly, or maybe just overthinking :V worried.

Side buttons do a very good job.

Wheel responsive and good like Rival's maybe.

Have yet to test how it does in FPSs, i guess 500 dpi will be the only possible to use nicely with 3.85 m/s cover :<


----------



## Sencha

Yeah the spaces are just right for them as well. Its funny how much different it feels with just a small raise. I have to say the mouse is really growing on me. Its a shame its not a 3310 or better mouse but the quality and feel of the mouse overall destroys anything in its price range. There isn't even any rebound rattle on M1 and M2. They are both tight as f! Sold the QCK on ebay so overall the mouse cost me like 17 quid.....that's just silly!


----------



## pandalf

After reading your opinions it seems like it's a solid budget mouse, but I'm wondering whether I should buy EVGA Torq X5 for 15€ more (it's a bit more expensive than usual for some reason). I like the shape of the Rival 100 more, but the sensor on the Evga (S3988) is so much better. If I decide to go with the Rival 100, I'll wait for the white glossy version.


----------



## Ufasas

500 dpi 500mhz , sens 2.2, 40cm/360, railing is so much awesome with this one, cursor dead stable, double feet helps adjust high LOD to very good level, got tired in 3rd map.

If i can rail high with this mouse, *** wrong with Rival vanilla and it's way better sensor then? maybe shape of vanilla?


----------



## Kitarist

Mouse feels very raw compared to MX518 in terms of movement and feel. But i just cant get used to it so fast. We will see in the next few days


----------



## atarii

Ok i got the mouse today, first impression after 2 hours

pros:
- amazing shape, spray control in csgo is amazing because i like the shape so much
- it's a solid mouse, the build quality is excellent for the price and no rattle at all
- the side grips are ok, i can lift the mouse without any problem (i have dry hands and, for example, my ec2-a slips everytime i want to lift it)
- the clicks are ok, a little bit softer than the huanos on the fk/za, harder than omrons
- scroll wheel is good
- the cable is good, an huge step up from the rival 300, it's like a cheaper version of the zowie cable

cons:
- feets are bad
- LOD is too high it's more than 2.5mm on my g-sr (more than 2 cd)

*the sensor* is pretty good, it doesn't have smoothing and it doesn't skip, maybe i can feel a little bit of angle snapping? Anyway it's snappier than any 3310. I still think the AM010 is rawer than this 3059, but overall it's a good sensor.

The LOD is an huge deal breaker for me (i lift my mouse more than flusha







), i'll probably go back to my za12 after some more testing.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> Ok i got the mouse today, first impression after 2 hours
> 
> pros:
> - amazing shape, spray control in csgo is amazing because i like the shape so much
> - it's a solid mouse, the build quality is excellent for the price and no rattle at all
> - the side grips are ok, i can lift the mouse without any problem (i have dry hands and, for example, my ec2-a slips everytime i want to lift it)
> - the clicks are ok, a little bit softer than the huanos on the fk/za, harder than omrons
> - scroll wheel is good
> - the cable is good, an huge step up from the rival 300, it's like a cheaper version of the zowie cable
> 
> cons:
> - feets are bad
> - LOD is too high it's more than 2.5mm on my g-sr (more than 2 cd)
> 
> *the sensor* is pretty good, it doesn't have smoothing and it doesn't skip, maybe i can feel a little bit of angle snapping? Anyway it's snappier than any 3310. I still think the AM010 is rawer than this 3059, but overall it's a good sensor.
> 
> The LOD is an huge deal breaker for me (i lift my mouse more than flusha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), i'll probably go back to my za12 after some more testing.


Nice. I love high lod. Thanks for that.









Does the height feel enough compared to, say, za12? It's the only thing I'm worried about.


----------



## kicksome

For the high lod can't you just use the tape trick? Does it work for all mice?


----------



## atarii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Does the height feel enough compared to, say, za12? It's the only thing I'm worried about.


The mouse is more flat than any ZA, it could be less comfortable if you palm grip it. I use a mix of finger and claw grip and my hand is 20cm so, for me, there is no difference. The main difference is that both ZA and FK mice are not balanced. For example the FK1 and ZA11 are too long for their width. The Rival 100 is a lot shorter but has the same width, so you'll control your mouse better, your spray control and flicks (if you dont mind the lod) will improve a lot.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> The mouse is more flat than any ZA, it could be less comfortable if you palm grip it. I use a mix of finger and claw grip and my hand is 20cm so, for me, there is no difference. The main difference is that both ZA and FK mice are not balanced. For example the FK1 and ZA11 are too long for their width. The Rival 100 is a lot shorter but has the same width, so you'll control your mouse better, your spray control and flicks (if you dont mind the lod) will improve a lot.


Okay. Thx. How about the ZA12 in terms of length/width?


----------



## atarii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> For the high lod can't you just use the tape trick? Does it work for all mice?


Can't try atm, tomorrow i'll try the tape trick or to stack other feet on it, like already suggested


----------



## CorruptBE

After a few days I can honestly say...

It's a pile of crap imo. There's something completely "off" about this sensors actual precision. At 1000 dpi, an increment that would result in a movement of 1 pixel nets me 2 pixels on the desktop even.

Trying to make really tiny squares, pixel by pixel gets you some weird shaking (I always found, the better a mouse is at this on the desktop, the better I can keep up with erratic strafing ingame, and it SHOWS).

Garbage in a great shape.

If you want something similar (price category wise), honest you're better off with this: http://www.amazon.com/Razer-Abyssus-Essential-Ambidextrous-Gaming/dp/B00L0YLRNY
(you'll be stuck at 1800 dpi without Synapse, but at least it does that quite well)

I'd rather use a Sensei/Xai with accel then this.

The only good thing about it is "stability", but that's actually a side effect of how crap it is.

It's the first time in years I actually think a mouse its performance is an absolute pile of crap tbh.

I'm starting to think there is some lineair factor between Shapes and Performance over at SS: For every increment in shape awesomeness, there's an increment in Sensor/implementation crapness.

It could be prediction, idk, but it just doesn't feel right.

Thank god this one wasn't expensive...


----------



## atarii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Okay. Thx. How about the ZA12 in terms of length/width?


I already had the FK1 and it was too skinny for me, that's why i picked the ZA12, it's 4mm shorter but only 2mm narrower, it feels better in my hand. The ZA13 should be better (again -4mm lenght and -2mm width) but i thought it was too small.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> I already had the FK1 and it was too skinny for me, that's why i picked the ZA12, it's 4mm shorter but only 2mm narrower, it feels better in my hand. The ZA13 should be better (again -4mm lenght and -2mm width) but i thought it was too small.


Okay. I have tried the ZA11 and I felt the exact same. My za12 is arriving tomorrow and my rival 100 the day after that.


----------



## atarii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> There's something completely "off" about this sensors actual precision. At 1000 dpi,


I dont know @ 1000 dpi, but @ 500 it's fine. Something is off (a little bit of angle snapping?), but at least there is no smoothing. The problem is with the lod, if i use a sensitivity lower than 2.5 @ 500 dpi when i flick it picks too many things that it shouldn't. Once you get used to zowie lod (and cable, but that's not the case







) it's so hard to switch.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *atarii*
> 
> a little bit of angle snapping?


A little bit?

Either it's quite a bit or something else just feels plain wrong.

Frankenmousers should get it though, great shape.


----------



## Nivity

I agree with you CorruptBE.
I been trying to use 1000dpi now for a few days, but the precision is garbage.
I use photoshop quite a bit, and it's a horrible experience.
Something is just not right with pixel movements, feels like it jumps here and there irregular.
I used 1000dpi mice before that I had no problems with in Photoshop, but this is just a no go.

First mouse I tried since the G303, and this is not that easy to send back since I bought it from SS. So I will retire it in the graveyard.

Guess I will wait for Roccats new 2 mice and see how they turn out.


----------



## fnade

I must say this is the funniest video review i have seen in a while...

Ohh yeah and there is something wrong with how cursor moves, feels like really pixels are jumping, an jittery behavior.


----------



## trism

I don't think there's angle snapping or prediction at 500 CPI. I can "choose pixels" much easier with this than the KPM.


----------



## woll3

Well, ultimately it is simply a lack of "raw power" considering multiplier at 1000cpi.


----------



## qsxcv

is the 1000 setting from 4* 250 or from 2* 500?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> is the 1000 setting from 4* 250 or from 2* 500?


Well, looking at the cursorpath already reveals the answer. 

So yeah, its 4 times 250 being 19*19.


----------



## wareya

what does the 19x19 have to do with it?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> what does the 19x19 have to do with it?


Array size.


----------



## wareya

Ok, and?


----------



## qsxcv

if the base cpi is fixed, more pixels in array allows you to scale up further while maintaining a reasonable level of jitter?


----------



## wareya

if the base cpi is fixed, you can't scale up without one of pixel skipping, acceleration, or smoothing

you can only reasonably scale down

sensor resolution only affects CPI indirectly. *all* optical sensors have internal precision that's higher than a single count and they buffer data while moving. sensor resolution affects the accuracy of that buffered data -> affects jitter (lower framerates also give cleaner data, but they add more tradeoffs [hint this is why top end sensors have variable framerates])

If a sensor were to operate without an internal buffer, the sensitivity would be incredibly high and the cursor would be nearly incapable of not moving when you don't move the mouse (without adding more deadzones or something)


----------



## qsxcv

by "base cpi" i mean "physical pixel density * lens magnification" (which would be 250 per inch for 305x)


----------



## wareya

I don't even think that kind of thing should be called base cpi because of the way the buffering works

imo it should just be whatever the sensor happens to be buffering a single pixel at, because the entire picture of how this works is kind of arbitrary


----------



## qsxcv

why not call it that? it may not correspond exactly to what the sensor initially calculates, but it is the relevant physical quantity that affects the final sensitivity.

plus what the sensor initially calculates, which i guess is what you thought i meant by "base cpi", is just (some factor) * ("physical pixel density * lens magnification")


----------



## wareya

It's all buffered, so there's not really a single physical quality that affects the final sensitivity. It's 100% up to the sensor how much subpixel movement to buffer before outputting a pixel of movement. Depending on how the given correlation logic calculates subpixel movements, there might not even be a "default" buffer size, aside from what's reasonable in terms of sensitivity and jitter.

What the sensor initially calculates is actually also affected by sensor resolution. Higher resolution in same space = larger (more precise) initial subpixel values.

Now, there IS a standard of "mouse moves one sensor pixel in one frame", but that goes to the wind when you have a dynamic framerate, and again, it has nothing to do with what CPI values are good. There's also "actual sensor image density on mousepad", but it still doesn't directly affect what CPI value is "optimal" or "default".

Calling anything "base CPI" is extremely misleading to people who don't have the time or patience to go so far into things.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> is the 1000 setting from 4* 250 or from 2* 500?


With the way it feels... it really wouldn't surprise me it's 250 and not 500.

It feels as if there's some strange deadzoning at 500 dpi and at 1000 dpi it jumps around as if someone upped my Windows Sens above 6









Initially it worked, but when u end up against better opponents with better movement (usually more erratic), it's a pain in the butt to move with them compared to: Sensei Raw/Xai/G303/DA 3.0G and 3.5G (without Synapse), which work really well in this aspect.

3310's have this a tiny wee bit, but quite manageable.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> It's all buffered, so there's not really a single physical quality that affects the final sensitivity. It's 100% up to the sensor how much subpixel movement to buffer before outputting a pixel of movement. Depending on how the given correlation logic calculates subpixel movements, there might not even be a "default" buffer size, aside from what's reasonable in terms of sensitivity and jitter.


when you're moving at a speed where consecutive images are shifted by e.g. 5 pixels, is the physical size of those 5 pixels (projected on the mousepad) not relevant?

if i understand you correctly, what you're saying/thinking is more relevant for this type of sensor:
http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/2/20/RepRapServo_1_0-cyons1001_8.pdf
where framerates are high enough that consecutive images are only displaced by subpixels
Quote:


> Now, there IS a standard of "mouse moves one sensor pixel in one frame", but that goes to the wind when you have a dynamic framerate,


"mouse moves one sensor pixel in one frame" corresponds to a speed. not sure how that's relevant here. it should be clear that, ignoring errors, framerate does not affect cpi/sensitivity.
Quote:


> and again, it has nothing to do with what CPI values are good. There's also "actual sensor image density on mousepad", but it still doesn't directly affect what CPI value is "optimal" or "default".


i'm not saying that (what i call) base cpi is the best cpi to use or anything. though it could be...
Quote:


> Calling anything "base CPI" is extremely misleading to people who don't have the time or patience to go so far into things.


well blame skylit








http://www.overclock.net/t/1514852/razer-deathadder-chroma-10000dpi-what-sensor/300_100#post_23597669


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> when you're moving at a speed where consecutive images are shifted by e.g. 5 pixels, is the physical size of those 5 pixels (projected on the mousepad) not relevant?
> 
> if i understand you correctly, what you're saying/thinking is more relevant for this type of sensor:
> http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/2/20/RepRapServo_1_0-cyons1001_8.pdf
> where framerates are high enough that consecutive images are only displaced by subpixels


Thing is, you always get subpixel movements because you need to know that you moved 2.215 pixels instead of 2.000 pixels. Otherwise smooth high speed motions would be locked at integer pixels per sensor poll.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i'm not saying that (what i call) base cpi is the best cpi to use or anything. though it could be...


Maybe if variance/acceleration didn't exist it could be, but that should eliminate any theoretical advantages of mapping dpi to one physical sensor raster's size on the mousepad.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well blame skylit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1514852/razer-deathadder-chroma-10000dpi-what-sensor/300_100#post_23597669


this post makes no sense....


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Thing is, you always get subpixel movements because you need to know that you moved 2.215 pixels instead of 2.000 pixels. Otherwise smooth high speed motions would be locked at integer pixels per sensor poll.


exactly, so the sensor first shifts by 2 pixels in this case, which is discrete
and then it needs to figure out how to put a number onto the 0.215px shift
and then it needs to combine these two numbers to get the total shift.

so the final number for the total shift corresponds to (2pixels) * (some multiplier, which you speculate to be very high) + (whatever number it put onto the 0.215 shift)

and then you scale down from there
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> this post makes no sense....


yea he has a weird way of talking sometimes


----------



## wareya

More like (2px + fraction) * (very high multiplier that depends on exposure, number of sensor rasters, surface flaws, etc)

And if it were 2.645 it would be (3px - fraction) * (etc)

What magnitude or scale it has isn't directly connected to the sensor density on the mousepad. I think it has an effect but it doesn't trigger any red flags that make me want to check how it aught to work since there are other independent variables that directly affect it.


----------



## qsxcv

well dpi is a physical measurement. you cant pull out a unit of inches out of pure numbers...


----------



## wareya

Of course, but there's several different places where quantization happens and you can't really say any of them are important except for pixels/frame (because it relates to variance/acceleration) and the number of pixels moved that the sensor itself outputs after all is done.

Skylake's post seems to be about interpolating the sensor array or correlation array, but that's all stuff that exists before that data is adapted to the subpixel movement buffer, which is where the eventual DPI value comes from...

Perhaps in older sensors the correlation logic was fixed in place to treat single sensor pixel distance movements per frame as single count outputs per sensor poll, but there's no way that for example the 3310 could have accurate 50 or 100 dpi steps if it still had a fixed buffer like that. This is what people mean when they say "every DPI step is native".


----------



## bond10

The RGB on this mouse kinda sucks. It's not vibrant enough.


----------



## qsxcv

what people mean is that 50dpi steps are native to the sensor and you can get those steps without screwing around with the mcu.

if the sensor sees two consecutive images like
http://i.imgur.com/BBEAgNX.png
http://i.imgur.com/csw9Yx6.png
the sensor calculates and assigns a number onto how big the shift is, for each axis. i'm not talking about the fine-grained noisy number you had in mind; i simply mean the final final number that the sensor outputs into the motion accumulator registers that are read by the mcu.

if the sensor has no error, then these numbers must be directly proportional to the actual shift in pixels.

it follows that
(the final dpi of the sensor) = (that coefficient of proportionality) * (the physical resolution of the imaged area)

that's what
1000 = 4*250 means

now back to 3059/actual sensors.
from what i understand, the more pixels you start out with, the further you can increase (that coefficient of proportionality) without having an excessive amount of jitter.

from what i understand from what skylit wrote,
there's an initial "hardware" stage where the shift is converted to a number of counts corresponding to 8 * (800cpi) = 6400cpi. and then there's another stage where that number is scaled down to correspond to 6350,6300,6250, or whatever cpi you want, with error accumulation/propagation of course. but in the case of the 3989 (and 9800) that number is scaled upwards instead.


----------



## wareya

more pixels, more bitdepth, less noise -> less jitter at the same sensor DPI -- yes.


----------



## Venrar

What are the dpi steps?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Venrar*
> 
> What are the dpi steps?


250, 500, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000, 4000.


----------



## Venrar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> 250, 500, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000, 4000.


Who actually uses 250 dpi. Why didn't they just drop that for 750?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Venrar*
> 
> Who actually uses 250 dpi. Why didn't they just drop that for 750?


B-but that would mean we wouldn't have 4000dpi!


----------



## qsxcv

http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Avago%20PDFs/ADNS-3050.pdf
see pg22
Quote:


> 4:2 RES [2:0] Set the resolution of sensor
> 000: 1000 dpi (default)
> 001: 250 dpi
> 010: 500 dpi
> 011: 1250 dpi
> 100: 1500 dpi
> 101: 1750 dpi
> 110: 2000 dpi


there is no 750dpi step???????

then see pg27
Quote:


> 3:0 DPI 0x00: 4000dpi
> 0x01: 250dpi
> 0x02: 500dpi
> 0x03: 750dpi
> 0x04: 1000dpi
> 0x05: 1250dpi
> 0x06: 1500dpi
> 0x07: 1750dpi
> 0x08: 2000dpi


well this register is called the "Full Resolution Register" so i guess there are two places to control it


----------



## Venrar

So... is there one?


----------



## qsxcv

3050 should allow it

question is whether steelseries removed it (which would be stupid imo)


----------



## Nivity

No there is no 750dpi option.

It is as others said
250 -> 500 -> 1000 -> 1250 -> 1500 -> 1750 -> 2000 -> 4000.

Why 750 was removed is weird


----------



## Maximillion

StupidSeries™ confirmed.


----------



## qsxcv

anyone know the mcu in it?
(it shouldn't matter for the missing 750step though; it would be absolutely ridiculous if a mcu couldn't store 9 bytes...)


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

We are still waiting for a non reluctantly taken pcb picture it seems.


----------



## qsxcv

and has anyone done a bump test yet?


----------



## Venrar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 3050 should allow it
> 
> question is whether steelseries removed it (which would be stupid imo)


I think they did it just to annoy me severely.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> StupidSeries™ confirmed.


especially as 750 is close to 800, which i think is a somewhat popular step.


----------



## Nivity

Noticed another very annoying thing for me personally.
On my KPM I have next,previous on the dpi buttons.

Rival 100 only have 1 dpi button but I put next on it, with the ss engine installed it works as usual.
Uninstall it and it stops working, color, dpi etc saves as normal. But not the dpi button if set to next (have not tried previous etc since thats useless to have bound)

Another - for me since I use the kpm next,previous ingame all the time.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> and has anyone done a bump test yet?




Is this ok? Don't mind the weird hump; The mouse fell out of the mousepad


----------



## qsxcv

k let's call that the smash-test.

by bump test i meant the test for relative button latency vs another mouse where you bump left click on one mouse wuth right click of the other


----------



## wareya

oh hammer test

also do the hammer test with mousecomparator so you can use the nonsmoothed lines


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> k let's call that the smash-test.
> 
> by bump test i meant the test for relative button latency vs another mouse where you bump left click on one mouse wuth right click of the other


Oh lol. Thought you meant this bump test.









I'm getting a consistent 2.3 ms SS left vs g303 right, g303 winning as expected. If there were aftermarket skates I would do it the proper way. I spammed it previously with the other keyresponsetime-thing (couldn't find it now) which lets you spam and it was 2-4 ms.

edit: brainfarts

Seriously though, I am really afraid now that I've grown too old. I really don't notice any deadzoning on this mouse and to me it feels very solid at 500 CPI. I can paint 2x2 and 3x3 squares on paint much easier than with the KPM :/


----------



## Nivity

Well, 500 dpi feels ok.
It's when you move up it starts to get crap.

1000dpi is just not solid as 500dpi, sadly.

And 500dpi is out of the question for me, way to low.


----------



## Sencha

Yeah I've not tested at above 500DPI. I can feel that the sensor isn't as nice as a 3310 but in game performance isn't hugely effected and the shape makes up for it. I wouldn't use it as a main mouse though. Purely as I could sacrifice a little on the great shape for a slightly better sensor. In game accuracy still about the same for me over the za11 though. I think this mouse is perfect at what it is....a great budget mouse that's built really really well. Its just I have no budget and I can spend as much as I like on a mouse. So I'd like to spend more and get a better sensor. I'd like to see a Rival 200 that's basically the same with 3310 or better in it. I'd buy that straight away.


----------



## Nivity

I absolutely love the shape, the weight is good. So it's kinda sad :/
The 800dpi step on my KPM is just soooo much snappier then the 1000dpi step on Rival 100.

Also the clicks are kinda bad, when you jump on M2 and spam M2 etc in mobas you notice how bad feedback / click feel they really have compared to a good omron like the KPM.

The shape is just so much nicer then my KPM however.

I still want to hold on to the Rival even with it's flaws, only due to the shape and decent weight. But argh the sensor and clicks is not up to par.


----------



## Rynji

I have just received the mouse.

Coming from a KanaV2 it actually is a downgrade.
The sensor feels great at 500DPI, but i am used to 800 on the KanaV2.
At 1000DPI it has horrible angle snapping. I have never had a mouse with this problem before but it was immediately noticable.


The mouse skates also scrape, but only when i'm moving downwards on my mousepad (towards me). Can fix that with extra skates.
I'm not having any problems with the LOD (coming from a KanaV2 so yeah...)
I love the feel of the mouse, good shape and i actually like the coating. I'm also a sucker for lights and this one just looks better than the KanaV2 (personal).

Not sure what to do right now, it feels great at 500DPI but that's a bit low for Windows use.

If only Steelseries could update the firmware to allow 750DPI without angle snapping, it would be perfect.


----------



## discoprince

i can't complain about this mouse for what i paid for it.

people expecting it to compete with mice that cost $60+ is just ridiculous.
this wasn't supposed to be the next best thing its a entry level budget gaming mouse, just like every 3050 entry level gaming mouse thats come before it.

i'm not sure what you were expecting when they revealed the sensor and price point. if you thought it was going to be better than your 3310 or 3366 mouse, i feel sorry for you.


----------



## trhead

We need a new company like Schiit to shake this industry up a bit.


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> i can't complain about this mouse for what i paid for it.
> 
> people expecting it to compete with mice that cost $60+ is just ridiculous.
> this wasn't supposed to be the next best thing its a entry level budget gaming mouse, just like every 3050 entry level gaming mouse thats come before it.
> 
> i'm not sure what you were expecting when they revealed the sensor and price point. if you thought it was going to be better than your 3310 or 3366 mouse, i feel sorry for you.


How about some improvements after all these years? Why should a PRO GAMING mouse only be usable at 500cpi? My 2 year old cheap Chinese mice from Aliexpress (mostly A3050 sensors) have the same behavior. How about some proper mouse feet. I'm sick and tired of this industry and this BS. sigh

EDIT: bst had the right idea and vision with Aurora but things just didn't work out for some reason


----------



## Rynji

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> i can't complain about this mouse for what i paid for it.
> 
> people expecting it to compete with mice that cost $60+ is just ridiculous.
> this wasn't supposed to be the next best thing its a entry level budget gaming mouse, just like every 3050 entry level gaming mouse thats come before it.
> 
> i'm not sure what you were expecting when they revealed the sensor and price point. if you thought it was going to be better than your 3310 or 3366 mouse, i feel sorry for you.


No need to feel sorry, also the KanaV2 has a 3090 sensor and costs 50 euro here.
I'm just trying out an alternative, stating the positive and negative points of this mouse.

I may end up using it as my main mouse, if i can get used to 500DPI.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> We need a new company like Schiit to shake this industry up a bit.


Yeah, we totally need products that may harm or even destroy the users hardware. Surely would shake this industry quite a bit


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Yeah, we totally need products that may harm or even destroy the users hardware. Surely would shake this industry quite a bit


Come on man, that was an isolated issue. They learned their lesson but yeah it sucked for that guy who got his cans destroyed


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> i can't complain about this mouse for what i paid for it.
> 
> people expecting it to compete with mice that cost $60+ is just ridiculous.
> this wasn't supposed to be the next best thing its a entry level budget gaming mouse, just like every 3050 entry level gaming mouse thats come before it.
> 
> i'm not sure what you were expecting when they revealed the sensor and price point. if you thought it was going to be better than your 3310 or 3366 mouse, i feel sorry for you.


You say that, but the Kana v2 was the same price when released here.
And it's sensor is WAY better at 800dpi. Also the omron clicks are better then these.

So yes it is fair to compare it to several mice that got better 800,1000dpi step then this have.

Also, should you not expect dpi levels to be decent? Or did you go into this thinking "ok 500 dpi step is all that will be good because it's cheap", I doubt anyone thinks that, if they did then I feel sorry for them.


----------



## trhead

^ Exactly. In many ways this mouse is actually worse than Kana v2. Its disappointing


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> You say that, but the Kana v2 was the same price when released here.
> And it's sensor is WAY better at 800dpi. Also the omron clicks are better then these.
> 
> So yes it is fair to compare it to several mice that got better 800,1000dpi step then this have.
> 
> Also, should you not expect dpi levels to be decent? Or did you go into this thinking "ok 500 dpi step is all that will be good because it's cheap", I doubt anyone thinks that, if they did then I feel sorry for them.


the kana v2 is one of the worst mice i own. there is no comparison as far as im concerned. ill take the 3059 over the v2 laggy 3090 any day.

not to mention it was never released here so i paid whatever it was from takasa at the time to get it. well over $60.

as far as dpi steps are concerned they are not the best but i can adjust going from 800 to 1000 dpi, just like any good player could.

you still cant compare this to higher end mice though, its not one. id compare this to other 3050 mice, maybe some 3090 if they fall in the same price point.

i like my rival 100, theres things that i dislike about it too and ultimately for me, its filler until the finalmouse ambi releases.

what i got for $35 from steelseries is just about what i expected for something at that price. nothing more. i have over 20 mice in my collection, most of those cost well into the $60+ range so i can sit here and compare it all day if i wanted too.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> You say that, but the Kana v2 was the same price when released here.
> And it's sensor is WAY better at 800dpi. Also the omron clicks are better then these.
> 
> So yes it is fair to compare it to several mice that got better 800,1000dpi step then this have.
> 
> Also, should you not expect dpi levels to be decent? Or did you go into this thinking "ok 500 dpi step is all that will be good because it's cheap", I doubt anyone thinks that, if they did then I feel sorry for them.
> 
> 
> 
> the kana v2 is one of the worst mice i own. there is no comparison as far as im concerned. ill take the 3059 over the v2 laggy 3090 any day.
> 
> not to mention it was never released here so i paid whatever it was from takasa at the time to get it. well over $60.
> 
> as far as dpi steps are concerned they are not the best but i can adjust going from 800 to 1000 dpi, just like any good player could.
> 
> you still cant compare this to higher end mice though, its not one. id compare this to other 3050 mice, maybe some 3090 if they fall in the same price point.
> 
> i like my rival 100, theres things that i dislike about it too and ultimately for me, its filler until the finalmouse ambi releases.
> 
> what i got for $35 from steelseries is just about what i expected for something at that price. nothing more. i have over 20 mice in my collection, most of those cost well into the $60 range so i can sit here and compare it all day if i wanted too.
Click to expand...

Well 800dpi step on Kana v2 is MUCH MUCH better then 1000dpi step on Rival 100.
No lag what so ever (ofc after the Kana v2 firmware update, not the first release)

I expect a decent 1000dpi step for a mouse, even a cheaper "entry level" mouse.
Since other mice had better, like kana v2, mx518,g400 etc etc that was the same or cheaper cost.
Hell, even the G100s 1000dpi step is better imo.

Good that you like it, the fact remains that the 1000dpi step is lacking. And unless you use the mouse @ 500 dpi you get robbed.

I would like to remind that even r0ach praised Kana v2 after the firmware update, and since he is the most OCD on the planet regarding everything cursor related I think the point remains that it's leaps beyond Rival 100 in terms of just that.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Yeah I've not tested at above 500DPI. I can feel that the sensor isn't as nice as a 3310 but in game performance isn't hugely effected and the shape makes up for it. I wouldn't use it as a main mouse though. Purely as I could sacrifice a little on the great shape for a slightly better sensor. In game accuracy still about the same for me over the za11 though. I think this mouse is perfect at what it is....a great budget mouse that's built really really well. Its just I have no budget and I can spend as much as I like on a mouse. So I'd like to spend more and get a better sensor. I'd like to see a Rival 200 that's basically the same with 3310 or better in it. I'd buy that straight away.


This, my thoughts exactly. I played vs two 3366 owners in a duel of quake, i had a hard time with 500dpi, player was experienced, and still won every duel, but during duel i always was thinking what if i took rival 3310 g402 or g303 mouse now, i'd probably would have crushed the opponent.

Funny stuff, it's usable only @ 500dpi, can we expect firmware update anytime soon? I'd love to use 1000/1500 and/or 2000 dpi levels with same 3m/s+ PCS. If Xornet II is gonna be better with it's entry 3320 sensor, gonna sell this SS instantly, though i just love this shape, so good. Loved sensei raw shape, and again, weak sensor inside. Really, i'm starting to believe SS doing this on purpose too, good shapes + weakling sensors


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> How about some improvements after all these years? Why should a PRO GAMING mouse only be usable at 500cpi? My 2 year old cheap Chinese mice from Aliexpress (mostly A3050 sensors) have the same behavior. How about some proper mouse feet. I'm sick and tired of this industry and this BS. sigh
> 
> EDIT: bst had the right idea and vision with Aurora but things just didn't work out for some reason


huh? i use this mouse at 1000 dpi, whats the problem? i still play cs:go, starcraft 2 and all my other games and still perform just as good as i did with any of my 3366 (g502/303) and 3310 mice (the list is too long for this one).

i don't just read forums and go by what other people are saying, like *a lot* of people do here. i buy the product and see for myself how it works *for me*. mice are very subjective and most people have different experiences with them.

i've been reading and posting here in the mouse forum for a long, long time. at this point i know who to listen to and who to avoid when it comes to opinions and insight on whats good and what isn't.

the only other 3050 mouse i own, which is the cm storm xornet, i never had any issues with. so i can't say much about your chinese 3050 mice which seem to be of piss poor quality. hardly anything to compare a steelseries mouse to or a cm storm mouse either for that matter. im no fan boy of either btw.

and as far as the industry goes, there doesn't seem to be as much BS as there used to be. with logitech and smaller companies like finalmouse/zowie stepping up and moving away from the dpi wars and laser mice and focusing more on the real issues. of course you could argue the logitech shapes are poor and all the like but the industry is heading in the right direction, compared to say, 5 years ago.

if anything i feel like the RBG wars have taken over the DPI war.


----------



## Wphantom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> We need a new company like Schiit to shake this industry up a bit.


Yeah, just imagine an 860$ mouse with marketing full of bs, that would be so awesome.

The last thing we need is audiofool style garbage in the mice market, but I think it is already starting, with mice like the finalmouse. There is a lot of people saying that the finalmouse feels so accurate, and, since they are ******ed like most people on the internet, they think feel=fact; the finalmouse might be a good mouse, but it has not been proven to be better than any other decent 3310; and it is the same thing with audio, with people saying that flac sounds better than 320mp3, or ******* that spend >1k$ on an amp that isn't objectively better than a 200usd amp.


----------



## CorruptBE

Audio really depends on what's at the end of the chain and at the source. If these are not up for the task, upgrading things in the middle won't do much.

I'm pretty content with my € 400 amp and HD650 and I don't plan on spending more because sound is one of those things imo, once you're used to a certain quality, you can't go back. I'd rather remain "ignorant" (within the spectrum I have reached) than burn a hole in my wallet atm.

Flac does make a difference, but it's not as huge and tends to be more noticeable on some tracks (upper highs and lowest of lows tend to have a bit more clarity but that's about it).

One a sidenote, high end audio comes with another benefit though: durability. I've been rocking my current setup for over 10 years now







(and that's with pretty much using it every day, for X hours).


----------



## wareya

I'm lucky enough to plug my headphones (MDR-V6) straight into my onboard audio and have zero interference. Now, if I try to plug a powered mic in, then things go haywire unless I put its power source on a completely separate wall circuit.


----------



## Aventadoor

Hey.... Schiit is good schiit for the money compared ALOT of other **** in the hifi market.
Their new R2R DACs are really good. Personally im a little over schiit tho, time for something new.
HD650 is probably the best buy you can do, well... HD800 might be a tad better for the money, especially now with all the extremly expensive headphones that have come.
Its a BIG price you have to pay to get that 10-20% better sound. Being owner of Audeze LCD-3F and Hifiman HE-6 I will STRONGLY ADVICE AGAINST BUYING AUDEZE.
Audeze = most overhyped garbage ever. And also, most headphone amps are garbagecans aswell. Buy a Class A FirstWatt stereoamp and my gosh u get such good soudn!

Anyway, im trying to talk myself into getting this mouse, but the clicks scare me away.
Are the clicks better then say a Zowie ZA11?


----------



## trism

Yeah, the durability you get with higher priced gear is pretty nice. 5 years and counting with my HD650s. Most of the stuff in the market is grossly overpriced when it comes to the used components though. We need more people like NwAvGuy, not companies asking 10x profit like Schiit.

It is entirely possible that some people hear the difference between a flac and a 320bit mp3 as mp3 is lossy and somewhat based on the physiology of the human hearing. It could totally differ depending on the individual, personally I don't care that much. Spotify through Fidelify (and ASIO) is fine enough









I prefer these over the Huanos in my FK, can't say anything about the ZA11. In my opinion they feel kinda like the vanilla Rival clicks.


----------



## qsxcv

isnt schiit pretty reasonably priced though? idk

and evga's (optical) mice are pretty solid and reasonably priced imo. yea odm but so is pretty much everything else


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> It is entirely possible that some people hear the difference between a flac and a 320bit mp3 as mp3 is lossy and somewhat based on the physiology of the human hearing.


I did back on my cheap headphones because their distortion aggravated the compression artefacts on high frequency noises (cymbals, raw saw synths, esses, etc)

Now on my MDR-V6 I can't tell a difference anymore once again


----------



## trism

Brings to my mind that I actually wanted to create my own mouse but the PMW3320 sample kit costed so much that no thanks. Due to the nature of the project, I basically need the datasheet. Bought the Rival 100 originally as a frankenmouse shell for that project but I think I am going to keep this intact because I like this mouse, and just ditch the idea.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Are the clicks better then say a Zowie ZA11?


Got ZA11, FK2 for later tests lying in a wardrobe, clicks in Rival 100 are mildly softer than any Zowie ZAs/FKs, what i like, and Rival 100 shape is better than any fk/za for me, sensor is stronger in zowies though...


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Since everyone is talking about headphones I would recommend the Shure SRH-840. They're very well built and the sound quality is amazing. Too bad I don't have a good enough soundcard to use it to its fullest.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I did back on my cheap headphones because their distortion aggravated the compression artefacts on high frequency noises (cymbals, raw saw synths, esses, etc)
> 
> Now on my MDR-V6 I can't tell a difference anymore once again


Hehe. The difference is pretty easy to tell if you calculate a residual signal







Personally I don't hear any difference in a blind test with my setup. Funny though how cheap components bring out the compression artifacts more than actually more precise(?) equipment.


----------



## wareya

it's because mp3's compression artefacts on high frequencies are actually rather pathological

I don't know what the term for it is, but a "posterized" noise signal with the same general volume would definitely distort differently from one that's not posterized

anyways, opus is best codec.


----------



## trism

I guess it's most likely because high frequencies have a lot of noncontinuous instruments e.g. hi-hats and similar stuff which is impossible to compress properly.

I was referring more to the frequency masking though, but I am very fortunate that I am totally fine with 320kbps mp3s









Oh yeah and those Shures are very good headphones for their price. I really don't understand why people buy gamer headsets instead of buying a good pair of headphones+stand alone mic/modmic.

Does anyone want to see mousecomparator pics from Rival 100 vs other mice?


----------



## zeflow

Back to the Rival 100:

I don't see why they raised the plastic around the sensor...constantly drags on my gtf-x..


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Brings to my mind that I actually wanted to create my own mouse but the PMW3320 sample kit costed so much that no thanks. Due to the nature of the project, I basically need the datasheet. Bought the Rival 100 originally as a frankenmouse shell for that project but I think I am going to keep this intact because I like this mouse, and just ditch the idea.


wait wut where to buy sample kit?
did u contact pixart directly?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> wait wut where to buy sample kit?
> did u contact pixart directly?


With Avago you could buy the sample/dev/design kits from a distributor like DigiKey or from Avago. I don't remember the price -- I think the price for the sample kit was about $200-300.

It appears you have to contact PixArt sales directly to acquire a sample kit. I think you get the data sheet, SROM, lens, sensor, etc.


----------



## trism

Hmm, didn't digikey etc sell Avago sensors for a few bucks? The A3090 datasheet is public and you could download the SROM from Avago's site. And yup, you have to contact Pixart directly for a sample kit. What's up with those prices? A lot of ic manufacturers give out samples for free.

Answered to qsxcv in PM.


----------



## popups

The Avago designer kit actually gave you a functional mouse, a dongle and a set of 5 extra components. Of course you got docs on how to produce a mouse. Do other companies give this out for free?

BST, and others, didn't buy a designer kit. They contacted the ODM for a sample. Getting an ODM sample can be tricky. I heard some people got a free sample and paid shipping. Others have to show they are future customers that will put in a minimum order.


----------



## trism

No but that's not generally what I would ask for when asking for sample kits. That's basically a development board. I just need the sensor, lens, datasheet and SROM.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> No but that's not generally what I would ask for when asking for sample kits. That's basically a development board. I just need the sensor, lens, datasheet and SROM.


I know there is at least a sample kit and a design kit.

I think the design kit is better for someone trying to learn everything about making a mouse. The sample kit would require you to have a donor mouse (which may not be to spec).


----------



## Kitarist

Well now after almost 2 days with the mouse i can say that in terms of perfomance it is actually much better than the good old mx518 (it feels snappier,raw,more precise...) Its a great mouse for the money. and the quality is really good. I'm still waiting now for Zowie FK2 to arrive and compare all 3


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wphantom*
> 
> Yeah, just imagine an 860$ mouse with marketing full of bs, that would be so awesome.
> 
> .


Lol okay Schiit was a bad example. We need someone like NwAvGuy. I guess bst was our NwAvGuy


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Lol okay Schiit was a bad example. We need someone like NwAvGuy. I guess bst was our NwAvGuy


Is he a pathetic failure like bst was? After reading his blog it doesn't seem to be the case(YET).


----------



## qsxcv

no he was a sort of an unintentional troll who randomly disappeared one day.
and left behind way too many fanboys


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wphantom*
> 
> Yeah, just imagine an 860$ mouse with marketing full of bs, that would be so awesome.


Don't worry, Razer will release some sort of ultra rare, high performance model quite soon and watch all the noob-gamers jump for it in droves







.


----------



## dlano

A real mixed bag this mouse, has a great weight and shape, like others have said 500dpi seems fine enough (~486 according to mousetester) once I got used to it and +4m/s tracking is more than plenty for me. Has a fairly nice rubber cable, even the plastic side grips weren't too bad.

The LOD is a bit too high however, and those SS switches are still a little mushy for my liking, but the real killer is how it catches on my Zowie G-SR. It's usually in vertical movements rather than horizontal but felt terrible when I was doing large circles testing the polling precision or doing things like recoil control.

Not sure if it's the feet or the raised area around the sensor so I may slap on some Tiger IE 3.0s to see if it helps with that and maybe the LOD too, the stock feet are pretty meh anyway.


----------



## Ufasas

Still keeping ie3 hyperglides, I could still sell it with untouched original feet if i change mind and stop using it as main mouse nowadays : P


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Just realized the Rival Rescuer(pmw3320) uses internals from the same ODM that was used for the Tt Esports Talon mouse. I'm honestly more willing to buy that now than the Rival 100. Buying it though seems to be a complete pain right now. Sadly jd.com nerfed their overseas site.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Just realized the Rival Rescuer(pmw3320) uses internals from the same ODM that was used for the Tt Esports Talon mouse. I'm honestly more willing to buy that now than the Rival 100. Buying it though seems to be a complete pain right now. Sadly jd.com nerfed their overseas site.


Do you know, if you return Rival 100 mouse, do you have to return free mouse pad too? I've ordered Xornet II (3320) for next week, just around announcement 10.27.


----------



## Sencha

No!

I'm returning 15,000 of them and keeping the pads and opening a small shop.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

The QcK is complimentary so I don't believe you do.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> The QcK is complimentary so I don't believe you do.


correct!


----------



## Aventadoor

How are the Rival 100 clicks compared to Kana V2?
Im dying from using ZA11, I hate it with passion, Castor seems to not be as hot as the hype would make it look and XTRFY is just mad.


----------



## trhead

I'll wait for the inevitable V2 revision of this mouse.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I cant wait for Logitech to buy Steelseries. Imagine Logitech's tech in SS's shells. The dream.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I cant wait for Logitech to buy Steelseries. Imagine Logitech's tech in SS's shells. The dream.


They never will though. There would be no point.

Speaking SS shells, whenever I look at Ikari I can see how the shell "morphed" into shape they have been milking ever since the Xai came out.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> How are the Rival 100 clicks compared to Kana V2?


kana v2 clicks are better as much as i hate to admit it.

source: i own both


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> They never will though. There would be no point.
> 
> Speaking SS shells, whenever I look at Ikari I can see how the shell "morphed" into shape they have been milking ever since the Xai came out.


I don't see human hands changing anytime soon, so I believe it's the case of "don't fix what is broken". I'd gladly buy the same proven/good shape with sensor upgrades. Heck, I'd even pay full price for a coating upgrade, while everything being the same.


----------



## aerowalk30

Couldn't help myself, picked one up despite my reservations.

Kinzu V1, Aurora, Rival 100, Kana V2, Sensei, WMO


Hi-Def: http://i.imgur.com/wSaLEjW.jpg


----------



## Ufasas

That's some nice collection.

Btw:

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=KB-067-ST
Am i missing something? They say "The Rival 100 has a 1.5mm LOD" I thought it's higher by default, and lower with double feet

So apparently ordering it straight from Denmark will be worth more with a free mouse and is cheaper, than ordering it in country I live and getting no mouse, lmao
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> The QcK is complimentary so I don't believe you do.


Sounds good, opening the shop soon! Watchout!


----------



## ramraze

Got the Rival 100.

Many things are good, but the height is still way too low. The Sensei has only 0.67 mm higher hump but somehow still feels higher. I feel a lack of vertical stability + hurts the hand.










Like my only complaint.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

This made me laugh


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> 
> This made me laugh


For what reason?


----------



## qsxcv

it's their ad-hoc excuse for the cheapo sensor
>has a 2000cpi


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

"Overmarketing empty features" -SS, 2015
Weren't they the ones who put a LCD display on the BOTTOM of a mouse?


----------



## Venrar

What's with companies not having a medium speed dpi step. 100,200,300,400,500,42 000, 64 000


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> "Overmarketing empty features" -SS, 2015
> Weren't they the ones who put a LCD display on the BOTTOM of a mouse?


I think the Kinzu acceleration spin was my favourite
http://faq.steelseries.com/questions/194/Does+the+Kinzu+have+mouse+acceleration%3F


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> I think the Kinzu acceleration spin was my favourite
> http://faq.steelseries.com/questions/194/Does+the+Kinzu+have+mouse+acceleration%3F


I wish I never read that.


----------



## qsxcv

yea idk how guardian and edward manage it, but the accel on my kinzu is inconsistent af


----------



## wareya

what kind of mousepads do they use


----------



## aerowalk30

QCK. I use the Kinzu V1 and think its a fantastic mouse. The angle-snapping on the Kinzu V1 is really well implemented its not like your traditional angle-snapping option you might find in the SS engine or most other mice, its nowhere near as "sticky". Along with the fact that CS is based on landing headshots you're crosshair is primarily moving along one horizontal plane for most of the time (not sure on the correct term).

I know most consider angle-snapping heresy so think what you want. Like everything mouse its all personal preference.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

I keep forgetting to install the last driver for the kinzu v1 that somehow adds angle snapping from hell. Even stays on the mouse after you uninstall the driver.

Wow, that response from their website. Pathetic.


----------



## Aventadoor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> kana v2 clicks are better as much as i hate to admit it.
> 
> source: i own both


Why is it worse?
More mushy/ swampy/soft?


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Why is it worse?
> More mushy/ swampy/soft?


Mushy / swamp Steelseries has decided to equip all their new mice with their branded SS switches which are arguably the worst on the market from a feel perspective. Hard to spam and are no where near as snappy as the Omrons in the Kana V2. The switches are the first thing I'd change if I were to decide to keep this mouse. They feel like a malfunctioning TTC switch. I have a hard time believing that these switches would be approved by anyone who has ever used an older SS mouse so its probably just a cost / brand move.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Mushy / swamp Steelseries has decided to equip all their new mice with their branded SS switches which are arguably the worst on the market from a feel perspective. Hard to spam and are no where near as snappy as the Omrons in the Kana V2. The switches are the first thing I'd change if I were to decide to keep this mouse. They feel like a malfunctioning TTC switch. I have a hard time believing that these switches would be approved by anyone who has ever used an older SS mouse so its probably just a cost / brand move.


Subjective. I find these easier to spam in a rhythm and really like them







I like these over the OMRONs in my KPM. Maybe spamming fast isn't as good as you already mentioned but imo the feedback is so much better.

But hey, I am most likely the only one who dislikes g30x clicks...







Havent used that mouse long enough to properly form an opinion though. The few odd moments I've used g303, I *constantly* pressed the buttons by accident.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Why is it worse?
> More mushy/ swampy/soft?


they are just different, i wouldnt say worse but that depends on the person i suppose.

kana v2 has a sharp, crisp click.

rival 100 has a muted, crisp click and id say just a tiny teeny bit more travel until the switch actuates. most likely due to the shell and the steel series switch.

i think they are both snappy but the rival 100 is more soft.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> kana v2 clicks are better as much as i hate to admit it.
> 
> source: i own both
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it worse?
> More mushy/ swampy/soft?
Click to expand...

Much more mushy, less crisp feedback.
They are also worse then the Rival.


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Subjective. I find these easier to spam in a rhythm and really like them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like these over the OMRONs in my KPM. Maybe spamming fast isn't as good as you already mentioned but imo the feedback is so much better.
> 
> But hey, I am most likely the only one who dislikes g30x clicks...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Havent used that mouse long enough to properly form an opinion though. The few odd moments I've used g303, I *constantly* pressed the buttons by accident.


Yeah the G30X series actuation force is a joke and one of the reasons I don't use them. I enjoy the SS switches in my Sensei HEAT for just an every day mouse browsing as its more feedback and less noise but come game time I prefer the crispness of Omrons. The feedback is definitely better / longer on SS but "in-the-moment" for FPS games you really don't need that feedback as everything is happening on your screen already and any feeling of delay / pre-travel / return-travel is unnecessary in my books. Granted its all personal preference so









In regards to the mouse itself, I'm undecided if I want to take it apart or just return it. The weight is absurd at 87g vs the 89g in the Sensei RAW for such a small mouse. It really feels as if theres a weight inside the mouse but I know thats not SS style so I'm just guessing excessive PCB and plastic. The Aurora is much better suited in that shape class for its weight.


----------



## omar231

I hate all u new skylights just stop qcx ect trying to hard this forum needs reliable reviews skylight get ur ass here and talk wisdom thread is so ocd


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> I hate all u new skylights just stop qcx ect trying to hard this forum needs reliable reviews skylight get ur ass here and talk wisdom thread is so ocd


Go home you're drunk


----------



## omar231

I have to see a review thread in a while its stupid its why i would read this forum skylight / ino reviews solid no bs str8 to the ocn mice level ocd fairness u get wat i mean all the reptuable guys havnt posted in ages a single review weres the old farts?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I can only assume they're having a life


----------



## omar231

http://www.overclock.net/t/1168062/evaluation-steelseries-sensei-56k-warning#post_15690163 WHAT HAPPEND TO OCN


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1168062/evaluation-steelseries-sensei-56k-warning#post_15690163 WHAT HAPPEND TO OCN


? did I miss a memo ?


----------



## killuchen

My brother has been looking at this mouse. He's debating between this or the regular rival. The website says this is for claw grip/finger tip? He's a palmer.


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *killuchen*
> 
> My brother has been looking at this mouse. He's debating between this or the regular rival. The website says this is for claw grip/finger tip? He's a palmer.


Most definitely go Rival 300! That's got a better sensor and is more comfortable (ergonomic) andd is great for palming.


----------



## killuchen

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DrSebWilkes*
> 
> Most definitely go Rival 300! That's got a better sensor and is more comfortable (ergonomic) andd is great for palming.


Thank you for the fast reply


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Ha ha no problemo!
I have the Rival and I love the clicks on it (because they are quite fast but nottoo eaasy to press, a bit mushy, but that's not really always a bad thing because it makes them easy to click) and the RBG lighting is cool, not gunna lie (all of those16.8 million colours).

Glides well and shape is fab. It's for me one of the most solid PME 3310 ergononmic builds out there.

This is the cheaper little brother and if your big brother wants to get his K/D up, then yes, Rival 300 is most certainly for him.


----------



## MasterOfMC

Why 800dpi is missing?


----------



## pandalf

Do you think spending 15 euros more for Evga Torq X5 is worth over the Rival 100? I like the Rival 100's shape whereas the x5 looks a bit uncomfortable.


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pandalf*
> 
> Do you think spending 15 euros more for Evga Torq X5 is worth over the Rival 100? I like the Rival 100's shape whereas the x5 looks a bit uncomfortable.


Just get the Rival 300 because it's better in aboiut every single way


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> The QcK is complimentary so I don't believe you do.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pandalf*
> 
> Do you think spending 15 euros more for Evga Torq X5 is worth over the Rival 100? I like the Rival 100's shape whereas the x5 looks a bit uncomfortable.


I just give my personal opinion, a cut off back of x5 just not for me, doesn't fill palm well, and just feels awkward, but it's 3988 sensor is way snappier and more fun to have in fps games than 3059, also unisolated m1 m2 buttons of x5 ruins things for me too. R100 shape is lovely.

For sensor 15 euros more over R100 is worth it, for shape - absolute not.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

How does the X5's 3988 implementation compare to the DA 2013's implementation and G303? DA 2013 is the only 3988 mouse I own and I find it to have a stupidly amount of smoothing even without Synapse installed. Worse so than FM2015.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> I have to see a review thread in a while its stupid its why i would read this forum skylight / ino reviews solid no bs str8 to the ocn mice level ocd fairness u get wat i mean all the reptuable guys havnt posted in ages a single review weres the old farts?


I'm just not willing to waste money on this as it offers nothing of value to me.
Cheap sensor, small shell, SS quality...


----------



## pandalf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> I just give my personal opinion, a cut off back of x5 just not for me, doesn't fill palm well, and just feels awkward, but it's 3988 sensor is way snappier and more fun to have in fps games than 3059, also unisolated m1 m2 buttons of x5 ruins things for me too. R100 shape is lovely.
> 
> For sensor 15 euros more over R100 is worth it, for shape - absolute not.


Yeah, the back of the x5 looks uncomfortable for clawing. I might wait for the Rival 300 White to get in stock, but it's size concerns me as I don't have big hands.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> I have to see a review thread in a while its stupid its why i would read this forum skylight / ino reviews solid no bs str8 to the ocn mice level ocd fairness u get wat i mean all the reptuable guys havnt posted in ages a single review weres the old farts?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I can only assume they're having a life


Or they were encouraged to stop posting after...


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'm just not willing to waste money on this as it offers nothing of value to me.
> Cheap sensor, small shell, SS quality...


The shape and feel (minus the clicks) are the only redeeming qualities of this mouse imo. On every other front, you're better of with the older Kana v2...


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Or they were encouraged to stop posting after...


For some reason I felt guilty at one point when I thought his last post was in my "copied krait shell with refurb legit krait parts inside" atrocity I bought from newegg.

Turned out it was just drama I didn't know about.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'm just not willing to waste money on this as it offers nothing of value to me.
> Cheap sensor, small shell, SS quality...
> 
> 
> 
> The shape and feel (minus the clicks) are the only redeeming qualities of this mouse imo. On every other front, you're better of with the older Kana v2...
Click to expand...

Yeah it's annoying, I have my KPM and Rival 100 plugged in atm. And even with everything else being worse on Rival, the shape is just perfect for me. It's the shape I been looking for since forever :/
It's very infuriating to say the least


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Yeah it's annoying, I have my KPM and Rival 100 plugged in atm. And even with everything else being worse on Rival, the shape is just perfect for me. It's the shape I been looking for since forever :/
> It's very infuriating to say the least


Would you be happy if they went with a 3320 instead of the 3050? I assume not because the malfunction speed...

I might have bought Rival 100 if it had a 3320, but I wouldn't if it had a 3310.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Yeah it's annoying, I have my KPM and Rival 100 plugged in atm. And even with everything else being worse on Rival, the shape is just perfect for me. It's the shape I been looking for since forever :/
> It's very infuriating to say the least


you mean, everything is sub par when you compare the $35 mouse to the $60 one? please, tell me more about your one sided comparison


----------



## Venrar

I'd be happy with an 800dpi step.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> you mean, everything is sub par when you compare the $35 mouse to the $60 one? please, tell me more about your one sided comparison


What's the retail cost of 3320 mice?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> you mean, everything is sub par when you compare the $35 mouse to the $60 one? please, tell me more about your one sided comparison


That's no argument for having a mouse that can't even perform right at a low dpi of 500.

I'd understand if it was crap at higher dpi's considering its price, but it doesn't even do 500 right (the precision feels awful, deadzoning, prediction??, ...).


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> That's no argument for having a mouse that can't even perform right at a low dpi of 500.
> 
> I'd understand if it was crap at higher dpi's considering its price, but it doesn't even do 500 right (the precision feels awful, deadzoning, prediction??, ...).


What do you expect from a office grade sensor?


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> That's no argument for having a mouse that can't even perform right at a low dpi of 500.
> 
> I'd understand if it was crap at higher dpi's considering its price, but it doesn't even do 500 right (the precision feels awful, deadzoning, prediction??, ...).


Mine performs well at 500 CPI. I think you're experiencing a placebo or have a malfunctioning unit.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What do you expect from a office grade sensor?


To at least do that.

I've got some old office mice at work that offer more precision. They don't have the higher malfunction speed though of course.


----------



## Aventadoor

Is the clicks better then Kinzu V3+


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Is the clicks better then Kinzu V3+


Pretty much the exact same. Maybe ever so slightly better.


----------



## omar231

U GUYS 3059-SS optical gaming sensor get the sensor right at least. half are u going off about its a 3050 then some other random sensor remarks its the 3059-ss like i said i will review it if any of you have 1 i will buy it off you asap via amazon gift card lol.


----------



## johnsamuels

3059 is essentially a marketing gimmick. It is the 3050 sensor, no physical changes were made.


----------



## omar231

yes but its a different sensor still by all means are you gona say the g400 is basically the same overstatements everywhere its a different sensor i don't think a company would over generalize and just pull out some conspiracy on us like we did with the whole reverse engineering thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95pCWcwGQMw this guy did a good job of basically what i needed to confirm 2 shoting bots ill get 1 asap if any one hates theres.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Sacrificed the shoulder for this one. Just trying to push/test the sensor. Analyze as you may.


3050 doesn't do 5+m/s right?


----------



## omar231

dont think so


----------



## omar231

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> The specs sound simular to a laser mouse set up, but I find it interesting that they're actually claiming up to 160 IPS of movement. IE 4.0m/s~
> 
> With the small form factor and potentially low price, I think this could be a great sensor with enough effort put forth.
> 
> Data sheet: http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-2886EN
> 
> Link: http://www.avagotech.com/pages/en/navigation_interface_devices/navigation_sensors/led-based_sensors/adns-3050/
> 
> Selectable CPI/DPI
> 
> 250
> 500
> 1000
> 1250
> 1500
> 1750
> 2000
> Edited by Skylit - 7/26/11 at 12:09pm


the 3050 gets about 4 max


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 3050 doesn't do 5+m/s right?


I recall hitting 4m/s with the 3050 in the Kinzu V3 when I was testing it initially. No graphs though. Not sure about 5+m/s though but I didn't think it could.


----------



## omar231

zowie EC1/2 A3060 we should be comparing it to the the ec1 and ec2 not the kinzuv3 its a differnt sensor get over it


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> zowie EC1/2 A3060 we should be comparing it to the the ec1 and ec2 not the kinzuv3 its a differnt sensor get over it


I thought someone had earlier in this thread had posted that the Rival 100 used a modified 3050 (3059-SS) sensor. I just assumed this would mean that its a 3050 with a different lens. And from looking at the Rival 100 it definitely uses a different lens, but I have no idea on the internals / sensor. So I'm fine with not getting over it


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> yes but its a different sensor still by all means are you gona say the g400 is basically the same overstatements everywhere its a different sensor i don't think a company would over generalize and just pull out some conspiracy on us like we did with the whole reverse engineering thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95pCWcwGQMw this guy did a good job of basically what i needed to confirm 2 shoting bots ill get 1 asap if any one hates theres.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> zowie EC1/2 A3060 we should be comparing it to the the ec1 and ec2 not the kinzuv3 its a differnt sensor get over it


http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/132520/HP/ADNS-3060/+033543V.x/1C.PUEYBDN+/datasheet.pdf
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/558627/PIXART/ADNS-3050/+_4J749VMhVCyUd.pT/1HwvGC+/datasheet.pdf


----------



## john88

I got my rival 100, really like the mouse, just need 800cpi and it'd be perfect for me, have no idea why they skipped that cpi step. Anyone else think its a bit slippery?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Yeah it's annoying, I have my KPM and Rival 100 plugged in atm. And even with everything else being worse on Rival, the shape is just perfect for me. It's the shape I been looking for since forever :/
> It's very infuriating to say the least
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you mean, everything is sub par when you compare the $35 mouse to the $60 one? please, tell me more about your one sided comparison
Click to expand...

I can plug in my Kana v2 and say the same thing, better sensor at 800dpi vs 1000dpi and better clicks, does that make you more happy? Since they are the same price.


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *john88*
> 
> I got my rival 100, really like the mouse, just need 800cpi and it'd be perfect for me, have no idea why they skipped that cpi step. Anyone else think its a bit slippery?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I find the sides very slippery if thats what you're talking about?


----------



## Nivity

The mouse actually is quite grippy for me, i have dry hands and it does not glide.
The small plastic bumps works wonders actually, without them the mouse would glide all over the place in my hand.
I even prefer them over the rubber on Rival.


----------



## trism

Heh, for me the sides get very slippery after a while and I have to wipe them at least once a day. After that they're very good though. The top coating is almost good as the coating on KPM though.


----------



## Sencha

Yeah I like the side for my dry hands and they don't suffer from that weird feeling you get with the rival that they are indeed separate from the mouse.....I hate that feeling.


----------



## aerowalk30

I definitely prefer them over rubber on the Rival 300 but I completely hate anything rubber on a mouse, I'll take the Rival 100 sides any day over that. But after trying the Rival 100 I think I prefer texture plastic or just raw plastic sides more.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> I definitely prefer them over rubber on the Rival 300 but I completely hate anything rubber on a mouse, I'll take the Rival 100 sides any day over that. But after trying the Rival 100 I think I prefer texture plastic or just raw plastic sides more.


I'm just surprised how you people can be so picky about something so irrelevant as side grips, as long as it does the job. I wonder how people can not address the elephant in the room - the fact that it's just too low. It's only for claw/finger or for small hands palmgrip. You can't possibly get any kind of support from the palm. I can't understand how people can be so picky about scrollwheels, cables .. even clicks - as long as they don't have a delay and are spammable.
I personally quite like the sidegrips on the Rival 300. Rival 100 are quite slippery.
Just my 2 cents.


----------



## aerowalk30

I'm all about

Shape > Feel / Weight > Sensor-position > LOD

I can change the cable, change the feet, change switches, even cut plastic out to lower weight. I can't change the side-grips without launching a 3D program for most mice.

But if you know the mouse is small (which you do) then why complain about the fact that its only for claw / finger when you know thats what the shape is made for?


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I'm just surprised how you people can be so picky about something so irrelevant as side grips, as long as it does the job. I wonder how people can not address the elephant in the room - the fact that it's just too low. It's only for claw/finger or for small hands palmgrip. You can't possibly get any kind of support from the palm. I can't understand how people can be so picky about scrollwheels, cables .. even clicks - as long as they don't have a delay and are spammable.
> I personally quite like the sidegrips on the Rival 300. Rival 100 are quite slippery.
> Just my 2 cents.


It's too low _for you_. I have average sized hands and Rival 100 is fine in all grips. ZA however is too high for my taste, it's just impossible to add any minuscule movement with fingers and the mouse feels so 'clumsy' in my claw-grip.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> It's too low _for you_. I have average sized hands and Rival 100 is fine in all grips. ZA however is too high for my taste, it's just impossible to add any minuscule movement with fingers and the mouse feels so 'clumsy' in my claw-grip.


Yes, but most people confirmed, for example, that FK1 was too low and too narrow. Also, many people confirmed that Kana v2 was too low.
Also, being "fine" isn't what I consider as a good performer. Like, if a mouse allows me to play "okay" is not really good enough. I can play "fine" also with office mice. I would've liked it to be 39 or 40mm high. But yeh, can keep dreaming


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> I'm all about
> 
> Shape > Feel / Weight > Sensor-position > LOD
> 
> I can change the cable, change the feet, change switches, even cut plastic out to lower weight. I can't change the side-grips without launching a 3D program for most mice.
> 
> But if you know the mouse is small (which you do) then why complain about the fact that its only for claw / finger when you know thats what the shape is made for?


Also, a host of other ambidextrous or (close) mice are high enough -> g100s, g303/g302, savu, kpm(not ambi but small), za series, Zowie AM, Sensei/Xai, Abyssus etc, wmo. Even though they might have the same height or measurement, the way the arc runs is more natural and provides more height. Or the slope is just more steep to provide support for all grips. The only ones that fail here are Kana/FK/Rival100. (not gonna include kinzu because it is that small)


----------



## Nivity

It is not to low for me, it's perfect.
Also why I loved diamondback.

So yeah it fails for you, personal preference nothing more really.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> It is not to low for me, it's perfect.
> Also why I loved diamondback.
> 
> So yeah it fails for you, personal preference nothing more really.


How long are your hands?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> You really like defending Steelseries do ya
> And I already compared it to Kana v2 which have better sensor, better clicks but worse shape.
> And again, r0ach praised the 800dpi step at kana v2, and I trust his OCD about cursor quality over yours any day of the week


not really a steelseries fan boy except for their shapes. i only ever owned a vanilla sensei ($90 when i bought it and died on me 2 months later), sensei RAW and a kana v2.

also he never praised it, he said the only reason he used it was because of the shape. the firmware only made the 3090 somewhat bearable for him. thats all.
this thing has a very similar shape, im sure he wouldn't mind using it either.

lol, salty much?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> That's no argument for having a mouse that can't even perform right at a low dpi of 500.
> 
> I'd understand if it was crap at higher dpi's considering its price, but it doesn't even do 500 right (the precision feels awful, deadzoning, prediction??, ...).


i don't get any of this with mine, maybe you got a fault device?

this thing has some mild prediction that hardly affects *my* performance.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What do you expect from a office grade sensor?


i keep saying this in one form or another and people aren't getting it.


----------



## johnsamuels

What a surprise, another mouse from SS with a good shape but a bad sensor.


----------



## ramraze

I actually really like the Rival 100. I enjoy the scrollwheel and the coating. Also I don't really mind the clicks. They are not perfect, but do the job more than good enough, especially if you claw and press them around the scrollwheel area. The only real gripe is the height of the mouse. It feels like it hurts the hand ever so slightly, and if my hands are dry, then I lose grip. Also, don't get enough palm support. Mouse 5 button (forward one) is hard to press from above, so you have to press from below rather than roll down. But this could be only on my unit.
I should really try to get used to it, though.

500 cpi performs quite well. I use 1000 for desktop use and then just switch dpi profile in-game. Couldn't care less what the other cpi steps perform like. Will never need more.

Cable is quite good.

The sensor walls scrapes the mousepad slightly, so maybe thicker feet help(will try to stack up).

If I can manage to perform up to snuff, it will stay on my desk. If I can't, then it's a goner.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> You really like defending Steelseries do ya
> And I already compared it to Kana v2 which have better sensor, better clicks but worse shape.
> And again, r0ach praised the 800dpi step at kana v2, and I trust his OCD about cursor quality over yours any day of the week
> 
> 
> 
> not really a steelseries fan boy except for their shapes. i only ever owned a vanilla sensei ($90 when i bought it and died on me 2 months later), sensei RAW and a kana v2.
> 
> also he never praised it, he said the only reason he used it was because of the shape. the firmware only made the 3090 somewhat bearable for him. thats all.
> this thing has a very similar shape, im sure he wouldn't mind using it either.
> 
> lol, salty much?
Click to expand...

He kinda did.
And others agree that the 800dpi step was good after the update as well.

And even so it is leaps above the Rival 100 1000dpi step.

If you cannot feel what is wrong with the 1000dpi step on Rival 100 then there is not much to talk about








You are in denial or just cannot feel it unlike other people here can, and if so well then there is not much to talk about really









And nah, to old to be salty, fact is enough for me as I said above, other mice at same price with way better 800-1000dpi step. Defend the mouse all you want, hard to deny pure facts









But anyway, I'll leave this now because no use discussing it further, plenty of people reported that the 1000dpi step is bad, I feel it, they feel it, you seem to think it's "good enough for the price" which is kinda dumb


----------



## omar231

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/132520/HP/ADNS-3060/+033543V.x/1C.PUEYBDN+/datasheet.pdf
> http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/558627/PIXART/ADNS-3050/+_4J749VMhVCyUd.pT/1HwvGC+/datasheet.pdf


u don't have brain it's a 3059 all those sheets irrelevant


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> u don't have brain it's a 3059 all those sheets irrelevant


It's only "irrelevant" if you didn't read them. Go to page 6 of both PDFs.

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/132520/HP/ADNS-3060/186/6/ADNS-3060.html
http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/558627/PIXART/ADNS-3050/1338/6/ADNS-3050.html

Are you being a troll like that Reddit guy that came in here a little while ago?

Just because a company renames a component doesn't change what it is. Razer renamed the 3988 to 3989 after the 3988 exclusivity contract was up; they also market their products in generations(?). Roccat renames sensors to make their products sound cool and different.


----------



## aerowalk30

Definitely a troll at this point.


----------



## omar231

ur brain again fails to perform give me solid EVIDENCE ITS THE SAME on mouse tester go data sheets dont mean real time performance show the proof dont just assume everything.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *omar231*
> 
> ur brain again fails to perform give me solid EVIDENCE ITS THE SAME on mouse tester go data sheets dont mean real time performance show the proof dont just assume everything.


How are you going to make fun of someone else's intelligence when you type like that?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Definitely a troll at this point.


Everyone who frequents OCN is a possible TROLL, particularly when they do not agree with any of your opinions.

Kind of a morose and extremely naive point of view to hold especially when so young. I heard the young were eager to learn but now we have misinformed tykes, believing they have found the true meaning of life, despite falling out of their mother's vagina only a few years back







.


----------



## Junki3e

Any idea of how the Rival 100 compares to the G100s in terms of tracking? Planning to get one, but if it's worser then i'll stick with my G100s.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> Any idea of how the Rival 100 compares to the G100s in terms of tracking? Planning to get one, but if it's worser then i'll stick with my G100s.


Just stick w/ your G100s tbh.


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Just stick w/ your G100s tbh.


Yeah, its nothing special unless you like the shape and then even then it weighs a silly amount 87g for such a small mouse (Sensei feels significantly larger to me with only +6mm in overall dimensions and 89g in comparison along with 2 extra side buttons, larger scroll wheel). I haven't seen the internal structure as I returned it so its really up to you. I wouldn't bother though. Patiently waiting to see what for FM Ambi brings to the table


----------



## Ufasas

Rival 2013 is better than R100, G402 is better (snappier) than R100, not talking about g303 and g502... Still thinking about Rat TE Laser PTE 2034 lying in the wardrobe, guess might be better than R100 too... Asus gladius (S3988) better, Zowie FK2, FK1, ZA11 better

Funny thing, for more price Steelseries managed to do weaker mouse in terms of sensor than G402 which is costing less and (36 gbp vs 25-30gbp) is snappier


----------



## trism

If you can manage with 500 CPI the Rival 100 is fine. If you need the 1000+ CPI steps, it's really not.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Funny thing, for more price Steelseries managed to do weaker mouse in terms of sensor than G402 which is costing less and (36 gbp vs 25-30gbp) is snappier


Suspect it could be down to simply, scale of production.

The Larger companies can produce far more hence the price will drop considerably plus if it's their last model, offering further price cuts helps to clear the decks for their forth coming model (my guess).


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Suspect it could be down to simply, scale of production.
> 
> The Larger companies can produce far more hence the price will drop considerably plus if it's their last model, offering further price cuts helps to clear the decks for their forth coming model (my guess).


You need to compare release prices, after some time the prices drop significantly, for Logitech mice at least.

And unlike other brands Logitech has their own production facilities, so they can set the prices themselves when tooling, development and so on have been amortized.


----------



## omar231

Tyler Roberts
Hi. How can I help you?
Visitor
***
Tyler Roberts
How may I help you?
Visitor
where is my coupoun code
for my rma
so i can buy a mouse
Tyler Roberts
Let me check
Upon checking your chat history, I see that we've already sent a follow up ticket for you twice about this ticket # 296583. You should hear back from our Customer support team asap.
They're the one handling RMA and all after sales transactions.
Visitor
i havnt
heard from them
at ALL
here Your order is still available.
Rival 100 Black
Rival 100 Black

-->

Your order has qualified for FREE SHIPPING!
Check Out Now!
SteelSeries.com
The best place to go for the best gaming gear.
When you shop directly with us, you get:

Exclusive offers found nowhere else
Widest range of products and accessories
A support staff of knowledgeable, passionate gamers working 24/7
Early access to the latest and greatest products
Rise to the Challenge today at SteelSeries.com!

Questions about your order? Click here.
Facebook
Facebook
Twitter
Twitter
Instagram
Instagram
Twitch
Twitch
Tyler Roberts
You should hear from them asap. Sorry again
Visitor
they arnt responding
at all
im sure 1 of there twitter tweeters should be able to repsond
who ever tweets for ss on a 24./7 basis
Tyler Roberts
I understand. Sorry I can't be more of assistance for you since I do not have access to any of our backend system.
Visitor
u can mayttbe
message
some 1
at ss since u work for them
im sure
Tyler Roberts
Yes we did that twice
Visitor
realy no reply?
they didnt say anything thats ridiclious
Tyler Roberts
It usually takes longer but they will get back to you. They're handling a lot of requests but they will certain get back to you
emails/requests (tickets) are coming from all parts of the globe
Visitor
im sure
but a direct contact with them
should get a response back like when u contact ur store manger ect
Tyler Roberts
We're aware of the lapses and working on improving the support ticket.
Visitor
steel series needs to consider that operating soly off a few guys isnt gona work
Tyler Roberts
Is there anything else I may help you with?
7:12 pm
Visitor
yes plz msg them let them know what i said in the past im surious i can help ss maybe by investing a little to help ur support team if not then i will sue ss for its horffic support and fake Chicago office listed as a office but isnt in realility


----------



## omar231

*THOSE BASTARDS*
RMA request

PURCHASE LOCATION:
amazon

RECEIPT URL:

COMMENT:

Brendan M (SteelSeries Support )
Aug 25, 3:34 AM

We'll need you to create an RMA ticket ticket via our web-form. Sorry for the inconvenience but this will ensure that we don't experience delays later in the process and that everything runs smoothly.

To do this:

1) Please navigate to: https://support.steelseries.com

2) Under RMA/Warranty, click the GO TO RMA button.

3) Use the RMA webform link to create an RMA ticket

*** You will see a success screen after you submit. If you skip a question, it will just start over. You cannot leave any blank fields. ***

We will close this ticket and await your Warranty claim in the new RMA ticket.

If you experience an issue, please try a different web browser or a different device to access the website. Thank you! If you have any questions about warranty claims, please visit our FAQ here:

http://faq.steelseries.com/categories/RMA/

Regards,
Brendan M
SteelSeries Support

Best regards,
Brendan M
SteelSeries Support

Comments
User photo Randall B
SteelSeries Support

Thank you for submitting your RMA! At this time we are putting a temporary hold on RMA approval until we are able to move our products from our old warehouse to our new warehouse. This process should take up to 2 weeks to complete. Once this is finished, we will review your case and make an approval at that time. Until then you may, or may not, receive another update about your RMA.

Please note - This process can take up to 2 weeks. We will try and make it as fast as possible to minimize the downtime for your ticket. If your ticket closes to inactivity, please feel free to open another.

Regards,
Randall B
SteelSeries Support

August 25, 2015, 4:14 PM
User photo
i mean since it qualifies for replacement cant i just get credit for another rival? https://www.reddit.com/r/steelseries/comments/3i64uq/rival_rubber_side_question/

August 25, 2015, 11:51 PM
User photo Randall B
SteelSeries Support

Just wanted to touch base and let you know we are still setting up at the new location and your RMA is still valid. We will do our best to answer any and all questions, but responses may be limited during this time. Thanks for your patience!

Regards,
Randall B
SteelSeries Support

August 30, 2015, 8:14 PM
User photo
yah did u think i could get a credit to order a rival ? its batch that comes with the old deaftive rubber so ud give me a new 1 anyway think we can do it fast that way???? sucks not haveing a mouse

September 22, 2015, 8:01 AM


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Just stick w/ your G100s tbh.


2nd that.

And if tracking speed is an issue, look for a 3310 mouse, this Rival 100 is by no means an improvement :x


----------



## wareya

Let's review, class: what do you do when a large-ish company is refusing your RMA again?


----------



## HeroofTime

I just joined overclock.net because of this mouse. I have two simple questions, as there is a *LOT* of random talk in this thread as a whole. I have read over like 75% of this thread, and half of it deals with the mouse itself, the other half deals with a lot of general sensor related topics or arguments. I'm glad to have joined a community that definitely seems knowledgeable though!

I'm interested in buying this mouse, as my G100s has a left-click button that likes to stick, and a scroll wheel that can't decide which gun to stay on in CS:GO or UT2004. In the mean time, I've set up an RMA with Logitech as I've had the mouse for less than a year I believe.

1. What is the *highest native* DPI for the Rival 100?
2. Why are you suggesting that we stick with our G100s mice, instead of jumping on the Rival 100? Please summarize why this mouse is a no-go from previous posts in this thread. I apologize, but I'm getting tired of reading through this thread (too much information and posts).


----------



## CorruptBE

Because every other "similar" option is simply better.

Kana v2 = Better
Abyssus 2014 (with firmware update and no Synapse) = Better (and it's even up for debate with Synapse installed vs the Rival 100 imo...)
Zowie FK/ZA Models = Better
G100s = Better (provided you don't need 4+ m/s malfunction speed)
G302 = Same as G100s basically
G303 = Way way better if you can deal with the shape

So I really don't see a reason why anyone would want this mouse tbh, other then perhaps price category.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeroofTime*
> 
> Why are you suggesting that we stick with our G100s mice, instead of jumping on the Rival 100?


It's not even about "sticking" with the G100s, it's just the better option (sensor, weight) even if you didn't already have one. I mean heck, you can buy 2 brand new G100s' for the price of a Rival 100.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeroofTime*
> 
> I just joined overclock.net because of this mouse. I have two simple questions, as there is a *LOT* of random talk in this thread as a whole. I have read over like 75% of this thread, and half of it deals with the mouse itself, the other half deals with a lot of general sensor related topics or arguments. I'm glad to have joined a community that definitely seems knowledgeable though!
> 
> I'm interested in buying this mouse, as my G100s has a left-click button that likes to stick, and a scroll wheel that can't decide which gun to stay on in CS:GO or UT2004. In the mean time, I've set up an RMA with Logitech as I've had the mouse for less than a year I believe.
> 
> 1. What is the *highest native* DPI for the Rival 100?
> 2. Why are you suggesting that we stick with our G100s mice, instead of jumping on the Rival 100? Please summarize why this mouse is a no-go from previous posts in this thread. I apologize, but I'm getting tired of reading through this thread (too much information and posts).


1. Consensus is the only usable dpi step is 500, as anything higher has poor performance and tracking.
2. What I think he means is it's not worth upgrading for the sake of upgrading, but if you're replacing a dead mouse then, well, it's worth considering (though so is everything else). As far as comparing it to the G100s:

*Sensor* - *G100 > R100* - Locked to 500 dpi due to poor performance on other steps. Although a lower malfunction speed (if I'm remembering correctly) the AM010 feels better (raw) imo.
*Buttons* - *R100 = G100* - G100's clicks are light and crisp but feel like **** imo. R100's clicks are a bit muddy; side buttons are ok.
*Scrollwheel* - *R100 >> G100* - *Way* better on the R100.
*Cable* - *R100 > G100* - Zowie-like cable.
*Shape* - *Subjective*
*Feet* - *G100 > R100* - R100's feet (or lack thereof) suck, and the sensor window will scrape against the pad if you apply pressure.
*Overall Construction* - *G100 > R100* - The G100 feels more solid, in part due to it's lower weight (which is a weird thing to say).

Personally if you use low sense I would choose G100 > R100 as I feel better flinging it around, unless your sense is so low that you need higher PCS. If you love the shape and can live with 500dpi then the R100 is a cheap option. If your mentality is *sensor > everything* then skip the R100. Personally I'd look at other options.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Let's review, class: what do you do when a large-ish company is refusing your RMA again?


We whine about it on the forums and make alot of noise


----------



## HeroofTime

I appreciate everyone's time for answering my question. I understand now not to buy the Rival 100, as it truly does seem like SteelSeries made a foolish decision. I will also say with complete confidence (with support from other posts that I've read throughout the many pages) that the whole "gaming mouse" industry is complete jokes. Can someone with a brain and two ears hear us out? The gaming community would like to have a simple-shaped mouse, with a couple of side buttons, and a top-notch optical sensor that is capable of high resolutions/high DPI. Not everyone wants high DPI, but some people do. Make 400, 800, and 1000 DPI settings native to the optical sensor to satisfy those who do not like high DPI. Quit making mice shaped like spaceships, or mice with obsessive ergonomic sweeps and valleys. It seems like people always have something good to say about the ol' Microsoft mice. Their sensors weren't garbage (for their time at least), and their shape was simple. Now a days you have mice are shaped like objects that came from _2001: A Space Odyssey_. I'm sorry, they're just not comfortable to game with. Even if a mouse is comfortable to hold, it doesn't mean it's comfortable to actually *game* with.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeroofTime*
> 
> I appreciate everyone's time for answering my question. I understand now not to buy the Rival 100, as it truly does seem like SteelSeries made a foolish decision. I will also say with complete confidence (with support from other posts that I've read throughout the many pages) that the whole "gaming mouse" industry is complete jokes. Can someone with a brain and two ears hear us out? The gaming community would like to have a simple-shaped mouse, with a couple of side buttons, and a top-notch optical sensor that is capable of high resolutions/high DPI. Quit making mice shaped like spaceships, or mice with obsessive ergonomic sweeps and valleys. It seems like people always have something good to say about the ol' Microsoft mice. Their sensors weren't garbage (for their time at least), and their shape was simple. Now a days you have mice are shaped like objects that came from _2001: A Space Odyssey_. I'm sorry, they're just not comfortable to game with. Even if a mouse is comfortable to hold, it doesn't mean it's comfortable to actually *game* with.


WMO is still a better gaming mouse than 99% of cheap plastic toys masquerading as gaming peripherals despite never being intended as one.


----------



## HeroofTime

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> WMO is still a better gaming mouse than 99% of cheap plastic toys masquerading as gaming peripherals despite never being intended as one.


Someone knows what they're talking about. Not everyone will totally agree, but one must acknowledge the fact that there's something wrong with the peripheral industry out there (mostly mice).


----------



## trism

I would definitely take the Rival 100 over the G100s personally. Quality is much better, G100s doesn't have a smaller CPI step so I have to drop it in Windows (1000 [email protected] is so imprecise, impossible to control), no side buttons, tracking performance is similar aka. both are better than any 3310 mice (no less variance, no smoothing) if you don't need high tracking speeds. Sensor is much less important in a mouse as I get 5%+ better accuracy with the Rival 100 than with the G303.

But as others have said, if you can't use 500 CPI step it's no good. I personally can overcome this shortcoming because 500 CPI is too much for me already, 400 CPI would be perfect until I move to a 4K display.

-> if you only use 500 CPI -> it's a good mouse
-> if you use 1000 CPI+ -> don't bother


----------



## wareya

"no variance" lolol yeah right


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Let's review, class: what do you do when a large-ish company is refusing your RMA again?


Open paypal dispute.

BTW they've been using that moving warehouse line for the last 2 years.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> BTW they've been using that moving warehouse line for the last 2 years.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> "no variance" lolol yeah right


Well, read that as much less







Although I haven't had variance problems with the 3310 mice in my opinion. They just feel somehow... odd after 3366, am010 and the A3050.


----------



## wareya

Are you talking about variation from sensor to sensor or variance from speed to speed


----------



## trism

Sensor to sensor variation is probably larger with the A3050 considering it's a smaller array but obviously we don't know the manufacturing process and what kind of tolerances that has. PMW3310 is effectively an A9500 with different illumination technology so according to the wise guys over here the 3310 inherits some of A9500's variance problems. Larger array size would obviously mean less noise but the S3059-SS runs at higher frame-rates eliminating some of the motion blur. That assumption about inheriting the variance is most likely false though considering it should be the characteristics of the VCSEL that cause the massive variance in those sensors in the first place.

Why does the 3310 feel so bad at minuscule movements for me? Picking a pointy cursor and tracing text is so much harder than with 3366, am010, mlt04 and even the a3050. EDIT: Never tried that without the surface calibration with the KPM. Gonna test that now.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*


Seriously I think its just one guy and he can only carry one thing at a time. They're like "Steve can you really not carry anymore then an individual mouse skate from that single pack?!?!?"......he be like "nope"


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

I will always get 420cpi in mousetester at the 500 step on the Talon Blu. This is why it's the best 3050 mouse.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> I will always get 420cpi in mousetester at the 500 step on the Talon Blu. This is why it's the best 3050 mouse.


Unfair. My Rival 100 is 510...


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Let's review, class: what do you do when a large-ish company is refusing your RMA again?
> 
> 
> 
> Open paypal dispute.
> 
> BTW they've been using that moving warehouse line for the last 2 years.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, Paypal will sort it for you







.


----------



## jung1e

So just saw theyre out on Amazon.

edit: answered my own question

http://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Rival-Optical-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B015WKY3FU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1446068642&sr=8-3&keywords=steelseries+rival+100


----------



## CorruptBE

http://www.amazon.com/Razer-Abyssus-Essential-Ambidextrous-Gaming/dp/B00L0YLRNY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446075167&sr=8-1&keywords=Abyssus+2014

Apply firmware update, uninstall Synapse.

Will be good to go at 1800 dpi.


----------



## kicksome

I'm still tempted to get this mouse and I'm not sure why. Maybe I'll just run it at 500dpi and put the windows sensitivity up a notch and see how that goes. 90g is a pretty good weight for me


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> I'm still tempted to get this mouse and I'm not sure why. Maybe I'll just run it at 500dpi and put the windows sensitivity up a notch and see how that goes. 90g is a pretty good weight for me


For what it's worth (literally, I suppose) it's a solid mouse. It's not horrible/unusable imo but obviously we here have been exposed to superior tracking from other products both past and present. I'd say give it a shot, shape-wise it's near perfect. I still find myself using it here and there, it just lacks true daily driver potential.

Honestly, the biggest flaw of this mouse is what it could have been (aka potential). It's obvious that SS pushed this out as the "new Kinzu/Kana", especially considering the failure that was the v3. It was doomed from the start being in the "budget mouse" category to begin with. We expected/wanted an "ambi Rival" with everything internal being virtually 1:1 and we got a "Rival Jr." which is still a nifty little mouse, not a bad one to have in the collection.

In short: Sure, try it. Awesome shape, somewhat surprisingly good build quality and grips. Just don't expect tracking heaven from the sensor.


----------



## qsxcv

if a new mouse were released with a new sensor based on mlt04, but suppose no one knew that it's based on mlt04, and it could do 400/800/1600dpi, with significant jitter at 800 and 1600dpi, would people criticize it the way the rival100 is criticized?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> if a new mouse were released with a new sensor based on mlt04, but suppose no one knew that it's based on mlt04, and it could do 400/800/1600dpi, with significant jitter at 800 and 1600dpi, would people criticize it the way the rival100 is criticized?


Take my $$


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> if a new mouse were released with a new sensor based on mlt04, but suppose no one knew that it's based on mlt04, and it could do 400/800/1600dpi, with significant jitter at 800 and 1600dpi, would people criticize it the way the rival100 is criticized?


If it's still locked at 125hz OR if it has less than 3 m/s....yes it would be bashed.


----------



## kicksome

I think finding the perfect mouse is all about the shape for me. I'm much more forgiving on a mid range sensor than I would be for a top notch sensor with a not so good shape. G303 Springs to mind.
Hope the 100 I get has the same clicks add my 300 as I find them to be nice


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> if a new mouse were released with a new sensor based on mlt04, but suppose no one knew that it's based on mlt04, and it could do 400/800/1600dpi, with significant jitter at 800 and 1600dpi, would people criticize it the way the rival100 is criticized?


Honestly, I think the mlt04 is overrated. But that aside, a blind test where test subjects wouldn't know if they were using a 3366 or a mlt04 would be fun to see









(though it would only take me a few minutes to find out due to the malfunction speed)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Honestly, I think the mlt04 is overrated. But that aside, a blind test where test subjects wouldn't know if they were using a 3366 or a mlt04 would be fun to see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (though it would only take me a few minutes to find out due to the malfunction speed)


I don't think the MLT-04's tracking behavior is overrated. I don't know of any other sensor that can reproduce what the MLT-04 does; maybe the PTE sensor can.

If you pay attention to the initial motion and diagonal tracking quality, you will be able to discern which sensor you are using without having to swipe faster than 1.5m/s.


----------



## qsxcv

well yea if you open mspaint, there's like 3 ways to instantly identify mlt04.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I don't think the MLT-04's tracking behavior is overrated. I don't know of any other sensor that can reproduce what the MLT-04 does; maybe the PTE sensor can.
> 
> If you pay attention to the initial motion and diagonal tracking quality, you will be able to discern which sensor you are using without having to swipe faster than 1.5m/s.


If you mean the combined x&y axis -movement, no. PTE (Mad Catz RAT T.E.) reports the motion similar to the PixArt/Avago sensors.

I am more interested in how an Avago/Pixart sensor would feel if we used MCU code to change the behavior to mimic the MLT04.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Honestly, I think the mlt04 is overrated. But that aside, a blind test where test subjects wouldn't know if they were using a 3366 or a mlt04 would be fun to see


Forget about stupid stats and whatnot, the ONLY way to prove which mouse sensor is superior, is to take on someone in a death match game.

That way it will prove once and for all which mouse rules over all others. Let the GAMES begin.......







.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I am more interested in how an Avago/Pixart sensor would feel if we used MCU code to change the behavior to mimic the MLT04.


probably no different in-game (unless you're high sens like <20cm/360) and slightly worse on desktop/mspaint for 1-pixels motions. mlt04 feels kind of disconnected/unpredictable for small motions sometimes.


----------



## trism

Yeah most likely. I've never really understood the MLT04-hype but I really never used it at +125 Hz either. I've been looking for a HW solution to force 500 Hz-1000 Hz polling without the need to tamper with Windows files but really no motivation to even try to make anything. Just AVR USB host and act as a new HID device for the PC based on the polled data... should be doable, right?


----------



## qsxcv

doable but imo easier to just screw aroudn with drivers


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> doable but imo easier to just screw aroudn with drivers


Windows 10









Wonder if pro-gamers could use such a box in LAN... Could also implement povohat's mouse acceleration in it too as he discontinued it due to the driver certificate cost. Possibility to change the settings through the Windows, of course.

I bet people would accuse flusha of using hacked in cheats if he had one of those devices.


----------



## qsxcv

implying he doesn't already have it in his keyboard









it should be possible to write and sign the driver for win8/10 right?


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Yeah most likely. I've never really understood the MLT04-hype but I really never used it at +125 Hz either. I've been looking for a HW solution to force 500 Hz-1000 Hz polling without the need to tamper with Windows files but really no motivation to even try to make anything. Just AVR USB host and act as a new HID device for the PC based on the polled data... should be doable, right?


How difficult would it be to develop?

No experience in that field but definitely interested, I've been thinking about it for a while but have no idea where too start. Would want it primarily due to ESEA client blocking unsigned drivers as well as not worrying about if I can use the WMO at LAN. I miss my MLT04.


----------



## trism

It is but it costs some money to get a certificate for the kernel mode driver signing. ~$450 a year apparently.

I thought they had to send their peripherals in for vigorous cheat testing before they were allowed to use them in LAN...








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> How difficult would it be to develop?
> 
> No experience in that field but definitely interested, I've been thinking about it for a while but have no idea where too start. Would want it primarily due to ESEA client blocking unsigned drivers as well as not worrying about if I can use the WMO at LAN. I miss my MLT04.


Buy that ASRock motherboard that allows changing the USB polling rate.


----------



## qsxcv

i think if you pay that, you get the ability to sign for a year, but once the driver's signed you can always use it.

450 is a lot cheaper than (cost of hardware solution) * (however many people would actually use a hardware solution)


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Yeah most likely. I've never really understood the MLT04-hype but I really never used it at +125 Hz either. I've been looking for a HW solution to force 500 Hz-1000 Hz polling without the need to tamper with Windows files but really no motivation to even try to make anything.


Totally doable on any Gamer Board made by Asrock since they are the ONLY ones that include a solitary USB 1.1 port that can be adjusted up to 1000 Hz easily and it remains within the bios setting hardware.

Asrock keeps the MLT04 hype running and thanks to them, Microsoft mice everywhere are being used and abused faithfully on desktops around the globe







.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

But who needs that when you have Windows 7?


----------



## treav0r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> But who needs that when you have Windows 7?


the one who plays ESEA CS:GO on windows 7..


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> But who needs that when you have Windows 7?


It's for anyone using either Linux, BSD and any form of Windows as well.

It's a feature I thought Asus and MSI would include on their motherboards since they try really hard to pitch their products onto "Gamers".

Far better to have a board that can deliver supreme results without requiring dodgy-arse software running as well, within any OS.


----------



## bond10

Anyone try the new drivers yet? Wonder if they fixed anything, everything feels the same to me.


----------



## trism

Only Rival 300 got a new firmware in the latest version of the drivers. What should they fix?


----------



## aerowalk30

Well whatever, for whatever reason I performed terribly with the 303 despite its "better than WMO" reviews. I'll just stick with the 125hz WMO and deal with the frame skipping. An ASrock mobo isn't going to sort the LAN issue so its really not worth it.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> An ASrock mobo isn't going to sort the LAN issue so its really not worth it.


You mean you don't like their current Giga PHY Intel® I219V ?

I have never had any problems with installing only their BASE drivers, so everything operates as it should. Easiest motherboard to set up now is their current 1151 range.


----------



## MLJS54

I just threw mine up in the FS section on OCN. Too small for my gigantic hands.


----------



## Sencha

I liked it. But the sensor is too sub par for a daily driver. Gave it away to a long standing member on here.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Well whatever, for whatever reason I performed terribly with the 303 despite its "better than WMO" reviews. I'll just stick with the 125hz WMO and deal with the frame skipping. An ASrock mobo isn't going to sort the LAN issue so its really not worth it.


A shape that doesn't work out for you can seriously hamper your performance. I find that it indirectly messes with your movement and how it "flows" with your aim.


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> A shape that doesn't work out for you can seriously hamper your performance. I find that it indirectly messes with your movement and how it "flows" with your aim.


Definitely agree, but its something that unfortunately flies over the heads of a lot of mice people. Its the same reason I always go back to the Sensei if I'm a little sick of watching my screen blur out from 125hz even if it has what ever minuscule % of accel its close enough to the WMO than any mouse I've used + side buttons. Shape should always be the determining factor in my opinion.


----------



## CorruptBE

I've gotten used to the G303... luckily, but it took me longer then any other mouse









(About 2 months of on/off usage compared to 1 to 2 weeks on other mice)

Though the day something performing similar at at least 800 dpi comes along with a better shape, I'm ditching it instantly.


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> I've gotten used to the G303... luckily, but it took me longer then any other mouse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (About 2 months of on/off usage compared to 1 to 2 weeks on other mice)
> 
> Though the day something performing similar at at least 800 dpi comes along with a better shape, I'm ditching it instantly.


the G400 dream
3366 + Wicked Metal tentioned clicks + G400 Shape + 1 DPI button
The dream is real m8


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Though the day something performing similar at at least 800 dpi comes along with a better shape, I'm ditching it instantly.


No you won't because you want to experience that PAIN that every G303 user wants to enjoy







.


----------



## Ino.

Alright, I didn't follow all of this, is there any additional weight in the Rival 100? Because it sure feels like it...


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Alright, I didn't follow all of this, is there any additional weight in the Rival 100? Because it sure feels like it...


http://imgur.com/a/tMqAl

Doesn't seem to be.


----------



## Sencha

No I think its the thick plastic on the base that gives it that weight.


----------



## Aventadoor

I'm trying to make myself buy this mouse. But sensor & buttons keep me away.
Anyone who can try to sell me into buying it?
Like, people are starting to say 3310 isent as great as people used to say, and 3050 is actually pretty decent?
Clicks arent suicidal? Can you spam Tec9?


----------



## Sencha

Its a great little mouse. But only if you're on a budget IMO. I can't really see the point of it if you're looking for the EndGame.


----------



## Aventadoor

Well ive tried alot of mouse. There's none which have really sold me as of yet.
I'm using a ZA11, but ive started to hate the butt and the arch/lip/edge on the front, I wish it was taller in the front.
Also wish it was wider where you actually grip the mouse.
I know Kana V2 is actually a tiny bit wider then a FK1 and ZA11 where you actually grip it.


----------



## Sencha

I think this mouse will just be a filler for you. Something to distract. Sit tight and see what the FM Ambi is like.


----------



## Ufasas

Xornet II with PMW3320 @ 750 dpi (and i guess i am staying with this resolution on this mouse, completely brilliant for CS) with low LOD feels tons time better than the only satisfying resolution of 500 dpi of Rival 100


----------



## treav0r

So, i used the Rival 100 now for about a week and can give you now some feedback in terms of performance:

Shape:

It is fairly small, but actually really nice for my clawgrip. The textured sides provide enough grip to lift the mouse withought problems.

Clicks:

Not the lightest and pretty mushy compared to the G303, but actually very nice for CS:GO. Click Latency also is quite good, although not the best.

Sensor:

Regardless of the weird CPI steps, it tracks flawlessly and feels very snappy on low speeds. It might have some slight angle snapping, but it doesnt bother me the slightest.

For the ~35€ i payed it is a very good mouse for CS:GO


----------



## Nivity

Used the mouse for 2 weeks now and yeah, still not really liking it.

Buttons still annoyingly mushy / hard compared to good omrons like KPM that are lighter and have way better feedback.
Shape is good but it seems to be more and more slippery to me after usage, which is kinda weird.
Sensor, still annoying at 1000dpi, I even prefer the G100s 1000dpi step over this, it seems more stable when doing small movements like orbwalking etc, this is also where the buttons become very bad.

Will use it until I get a hold of Xornet II wnd of november hopefully.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> So, i used the Rival 100 now for about a week and can give you now some feedback in terms of performance:
> 
> Shape:
> 
> It is fairly small, but actually really nice for my clawgrip. The textured sides provide enough grip to lift the mouse withought problems.
> 
> Clicks:
> 
> Not the lightest and pretty mushy compared to the G303, but actually very nice for CS:GO. Click Latency also is quite good, although not the best.
> 
> Sensor:
> 
> Regardless of the weird CPI steps, it tracks flawlessly and feels very snappy on low speeds. It might have some slight angle snapping, but it doesnt bother me the slightest.
> 
> For the ~35€ i payed it is a very good mouse for CS:GO


Just wondering, can you set the DPI to 400? And if yes, how does it feel?
I've seen someone saying that it's not possible, and that the DPI steps can be set from 250 to 250.

Someone might have said something in this thread before, but I read a few pages back and I couldn't find anything.


----------



## treav0r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Just wondering, can you set the DPI to 400? And if yes, how does it feel?
> I've seen someone saying that it's not possible, and that the DPI steps can be set from 250 to 250.
> 
> Someone might have said something in this thread before, but I read a few pages back and I couldn't find anything.


DPI steps are:
250 - 500 - 1000 - 1250 - 1500 - 2000 - 4000


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> DPI steps are:
> 250 - 500 - 1000 - 1250 - 1500 - 2000 - 4000


Aight, thanks.
Are you going to stick with the R100 or are you going back to the G303?


----------



## treav0r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Aight, thanks.
> Are you going to stick with the R100 or are you going back to the G303?


i really don't know, but i have a Cougar 300M coming


----------



## Ino.

Whenever I come back from my business trip I'll finalize my review. But I can already give a short summary: It's fine for 500 CPI and below, but above the sensor a) feels bad and b) is capped via max counts per poll of 127... So max tracking speed is lowered with every higher cpi step.


----------



## daav1d

I used this mouse for about a week. 500 DPI for CS:GO was good enough for me and I had no problem with the 1000 DPI step for LoL, just a bit to fast for my taste. But the clicks was just to bad so I gave up on it.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Whenever I come back from my business trip I'll finalize my review. But I can already give a short summary: It's fine for 500 CPI and below, but above the sensor a) feels bad and b) is capped via max counts per poll of 127... So max tracking speed is lowered with every higher cpi step.


Yeah, can't really understand why Steelseries didn't use 12-bit motion data as the sensor should have that possibility (at least according to the datasheet the A3050 does) and the max speed wouldn't get capped like it does currently. But, as you said, it's bad at 1000 CPI+ so it doesn't really even matter.

Rynji contacted Steelseries and forwarded my question about the 750 CPI step seen in the A3050 datasheet and this is the answer:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Steelseries*
> Unfortunately that datasheet is over four years old, and incorrect. The sensor in the Rival 100 has a different datasheet and we are using a different register to set the resolution of the sensor. There is no 750 step by default. We did not purposefully exclude the setting.
> The engineering team is currently investigating what we can do with the sensor in the future. An implementation of a 750 step is something we would like to do, but not something we can commit to right now, and can't guarantee will happen.
> 
> I believe I recognize you from Overclock, so please keep in mind this is a lower-priced, budget-minded gaming mouse, and as a result it is not really designed to meet / can't meet the highest requirements of the community for a perfect sensor. However, a lot of us recognize the demand for this mouse shape with a high-end sensor and will be pushing to get one designed. Hopefully it's something we'll be able to meet the demand for in the future.


----------



## woll3

Interesting iirc it was the old Avago 2000cpi one that had no 750cpi in the register, the PixArt 4000cpi one on the other Hand should, whatever is going on is weird, but it just confirms my bias towards some pricing deal on old HW rather than any kind of "special sauce".

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Whenever I come back from my business trip I'll finalize my review. But I can already give a short summary: It's fine for 500 CPI and below, but above the sensor a) feels bad and b) is capped via max counts per poll of 127... So max tracking speed is lowered with every higher cpi step.


Mine isnt even shipped yet, and excuses are already popping up again on Reddit, but at least the rest(Zora, 250m and X5o) has already arrived,

altough im not sure what i am going to pit it up against, maybe im just doing an A3050 roundup.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Interesting iirc it was the old Avago 2000cpi one that had no 750cpi in the register, the PixArt 4000cpi one on the other Hand should, whatever is going on is weird, but it just confirms my bias towards some pricing deal on old HW rather than any kind of "special sauce".
> 
> Mine isnt even shipped yet, and excuses are already popping up again on Reddit, but at least the rest(Zora, 250m and X5o) has already arrived,
> altough im not sure what i am going to pit it up against, maybe im just doing an A3050 roundup.


The 4000 CPI step on the Rival 100 is even labelled with "DCPI" in the software because it just doubles the counts of the 2000 step...







So there is no native 4000 cpi step.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> so please keep in mind this is a lower-priced, budget-minded gaming mouse, and as a result it is not really designed to meet / can't meet the highest requirements of the community for a perfect sensor.


Might wanna put that in the marketing then. But that would be expecting some form of competency from them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> (Zora, 250m and X5o) has already arrived,
> altough im not sure what i am going to pit it up against, maybe im just doing an A3050 roundup.


Yeah I wanted to do a a3050 throwdown myself, but I get distracted very easily.


----------



## jsx3

The reg a3050 never had a legitimate 750 register either.


----------



## trism

What do they mean with the resolution register then?


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Might wanna put that in the marketing then. But that would be expecting some form of competency from them.


Yep exactly. Doesn't it say 'competition grade' or something on the front of the box?

"The Rival 100 Optical Gaming Mouse brings *unmatched performance*, at an unrivaled price."

"The Rival 100 gives gamers 40% higher tracking accuracy and movement-tracking speeds up to 33% faster than top competitive mice. In addition to delivering the performance needed to match the reaction time of the world's best gamers"

etc etc etc

Maybe 5 years from now they'll put a 3310 in a small mouse.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I feel bad for the people who bought it expecting it to be a decent mouse


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnsamuels*
> 
> Maybe 5 years from now they'll put a 3310 in a small mouse.


I'm sure they will but they'll always find something else to mess up


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> What do they mean with the resolution register then?


?



All marketing fluff aside, 40€ for A3050 are unfortunately standard, as for practicality, there are individuals who prefer it over the A9800´s.


----------



## qsxcv

well there's also this


----------



## woll3

The one i posted is the old Avago one, which is why it is kind of weird, because the old one doesnt have a 750cpi step but the PixArt one does.


----------



## Rynji

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well there's also this


I emailed Steelseries about this document, got a pretty good response in return.

_"Unfortunately that datasheet is over four years old, and incorrect. The sensor in the Rival 100 has a different datasheet and we are using a different register to set the resolution of the sensor. There is no 750 step by default. We did not purposefully exclude the setting.

The engineering team is currently investigating what we can do with the sensor in the future. An implementation of a 750 step is something we would like to do, but not something we can commit to right now, and can't guarantee will happen.

I believe I recognize you from Overclock, so please keep in mind this is a lower-priced, budget-minded gaming mouse, and as a result it is not really designed to meet / can't meet the highest requirements of the community for a perfect sensor. However, a lot of us recognize the demand for this mouse shape with a high-end sensor and will be pushing to get one designed. Hopefully it's something we'll be able to meet the demand for in the future."_


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> The one i posted is the old Avago one, which is why it is kind of weird, because the old one doesnt have a 750cpi step but the PixArt one does.


Both of those, the one you posted and the one qsxcv posted, are found in both Avago and PixArt datasheets. Just scroll down. Unless the version from Avago is a second revision or something similar.

http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Avago%20PDFs/ADNS-3050.pdf, page 27.


----------



## jsx3

Again, the 750 step isn't real or native to sensor SROM. It's uses the 1500 CPI register as its base afaik.


----------



## trism

Could be but there still should be a register for it in the A3050 itself, at least according to the datasheet. Whether it is native or not isn't the point here. Two registers for controlling the resolution is weird and quite misleading as there is no mention what is used and when unless I totally missed it (which is entirely possible). If I was implementing the sensor, I'd most likely use a register that is labeled as 'resolution'.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Might wanna put that in the marketing then. But that would be expecting some form of competency from them.


Why? This marketing is still a LOT more accurate than Razer's.


----------



## CorruptBE

This mouse made me reconsider the G303 shape though...

Now using my Abyssus 2014 without Synapse again


----------



## Ino.

Review is up

Steelseries Rival 100 review


----------



## subreach87

Hmm a local retailer is selling this mouse for 54.99 canadian. Im looking for a new mouse, so its between this one and a g303. but the g303 never goes on sale here, its 70.00 canadian.

But I dont know since the 100 doesnt even use the 3310 which I like I think im gonna have to go for the logitech?


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *subreach87*
> 
> Hmm a local retailer is selling this mouse for 54.99 canadian. Im looking for a new mouse, so its between this one and a g303. but the g303 never goes on sale here, its 70.00 canadian.


Check r/hardwareswap, can probably find one used for cheaper.


----------



## subreach87

Ok Picked up the mouse just now, Ill give my thoughts on it in a day or two.

initial thoughts, yes it is quite heavy... shape is nice and the grippedides are nice as well. cable, nice plastic that I like. scroll wheel is fine and much better than the kinzu. they really nailed the build quality on this mouse.... no rattles to be found.

to be continued.


----------



## subreach87

There seems to be something odd about this sensor i cant really put my finger on it, maybe its the software drivers they have out for it, mines currently 1.0.0.0. something seems off. and the angle snapping implementation is probably the worst i've ever seen, at the lowest setting its too aggressive. Somethings not right here, software side I think, something to do with speed, it only activates properly when the cursor is moving super slow speeds..

shame they didnt stick with the 3310.


----------



## wareya

are you running 500dpi?


----------



## subreach87

yea


----------



## CorruptBE

He pretty much describes something similar to what I feel...

Pretty much negates having no smoothing tbh.


----------



## subreach87

yea im taking the mouse back to the store tomorrow unfortunately. gonna pick up a g303. the mouse is nice for the price but its not for me, maybe they'll make it better with firmware updates.


----------



## pnoozi

After RMAing my Sensei RAW, unfortunately I'll be ordering directly from SteelSeries and the Rival 100 is out of stock, of course.







So is my original mouse...


----------



## queerquirks

Just got a rival 100 from my local store. Do the bottom plate of the mouse actually scrape against the mousepad? Feels like the mouse feet is thinner than the base plate itself or maybe the feet is not seasoned or sth?


----------



## trism

Some people have said the feet in their Rival 100 were too thin and their mice scratched the mousepad. I haven't had this problem and in my unit they are quite a bit over the base, certainly much thicker than what Zowie mouse feet usually are.


----------



## zeflow

It's not the thickness of the mouse feet but rather the raised plastic around the sensor that causes the problem.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> It's not the thickness of the mouse feet but rather the raised plastic around the sensor that causes the problem.


Yup, rest of the mouse is flat enough, relative to the mouse feet.


----------



## trism

Wut? The plastic around the sensor is raised like a fraction of a millimeter. Doesn't scratch the mousepad for me.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Wut? The plastic around the sensor is raised like a fraction of a millimeter. Doesn't scratch the mousepad for me.


If I apply just a bit of pressure it drags.


----------



## queerquirks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> If I apply just a bit of pressure it drags.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Wut? The plastic around the sensor is raised like a fraction of a millimeter. Doesn't scratch the mousepad for me.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> It's not the thickness of the mouse feet but rather the raised plastic around the sensor that causes the problem.


yep, thats pretty much what i was trying to point out. the slight edge around the sensor causing the drag on my pad.
gotta say the thinness of the 100 versus the roccat kpm is rather nice although buttons and clickiness is total crap


----------



## Kitarist

I just received the mouse and compared to Rival 100 its better in perfomance but i think that Rival 100 has much better clicks and overall feel... Zowie FK2 has weird clicks not sure why just cant get used to it yet... will report in few days... Also this one seems lighter.


----------



## MLJS54

If anyone wants to try this mouse, I have basically a like new one in the FS section for $28 shipped.


----------



## pnoozi

Just received mine! Feels really nice. Can confirm it _does_ drag on a cloth pad if you push down slightly. But overall the construction feels really nice. It's the same dimensions as a Sensei RAW. Same basic shape as a Sensei, with some slight differences in the front (not rounded off) and sides.


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pnoozi*
> 
> Just received mine! Feels really nice. Can confirm it _does_ drag on a cloth pad if you push down slightly. But overall the construction feels really nice. It's the same dimensions as a Sensei RAW. Same basic shape as a Sensei, with some slight differences in the front (not rounded off) and sides.


It's not at all like the Sensei shape wise, it feels much smaller. Its closer to the Kana in size.


----------



## CorruptBE

Shape wise I think it's one of the best mice I've ever used. To bad everything else is horrid imo.

It's indeed Kana size, but "perfected".


----------



## pnoozi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> It's not at all like the Sensei shape wise, it feels much smaller. Its closer to the Kana in size.


It does feel slightly smaller. Pretty sure it's the same weight as the Sensei RAW though (90g).

Here are the dimensions for anyone interested: http://steelseries.tumblr.com/post/131169944062/rival100specfaq


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pnoozi*
> 
> It does feel slightly smaller. Pretty sure it's the same weight as the Sensei RAW though (90g).
> 
> Here are the dimensions for anyone interested: http://steelseries.tumblr.com/post/131169944062/rival100specfaq


Yup, yup. Just don't want anyone getting the idea that this is a mouse to replace the Sensei shape as its not similar.

I measured both, Sensei weighs 89g and the Rival 100 is 87g. Note you can knock the Sensei down to 80g if you're handy with with a drill and some hobby clippers. Not sure about the Rival 100 though, I couldn't be bothered it simply weighed to much to start out with for how small it is.

Image comparing it to other similar ambi mice I posted earlier but might as well post it again: http://i.imgur.com/wSaLEjW.jpg


----------



## tmgz

How bad is the sensor at 500 cpi really? I don't need anything more than that since I've used 400 dpi all my life. The shape and weight are perfect for me, the only thing that's keeping me from buying it are the opinions about the sensor being really bad.

Is it really that bad even at 500 cpi compared to better sensors like the 3310?


----------



## diko adrian

Is there any problem with the side rubber like the old rival used to be? I dont want to buy new mouse every 3 months just because the worn-out sidegrip
I really like the shape but as usual SS build quality is such a pain in the ***


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *diko adrian*
> 
> Is there any problem with the side rubber like the old rival used to be? I dont want to buy new mouse every 3 months just because the worn-out sidegrip
> I really like the shape but as usual SS build quality is such a pain in the ***


there are no rubersides on the rival 100, it's plastic.
Rival 300 has updated rubbersides too, which doesn't wear off so quickly now.


----------



## maddada

just my thoughts about this mouse!

IMO the sensor is very good on 500dpi 500hz
-In terms of feeling good in csgo and not hindering my aim at all, feels very good to me and also very dependable, didn't malfunction once on me

I love the shape coming from the original kana, it's practically the same shape.

these are some other mice that I've used extensively (keep in mind I like lighter mice and use claw grip):
kana v2 for 6 months (low max speed, kept malfunctioning),
old rival (heavy),
fk1 (unusable clicks),
za12 (unusable clicks),
EC1-A (bad shape and unusable clicks),
DA (too light clicks and the worst shape ever),
finalmouse (shape isn't for me),
and many other mice..

I always went back to the original Kana which I bought over 3 years ago
(love the shape, love the weight, sensor was alright but frequently malfunctioned and made me look at the ground when flicking)

now I think I finally found a mouse without any problems, I see myself using the rival100 for a while.

I tape fixed it to lower the LOD so that if it's lifted the slightest amount it'll stop tracking, and it doesn't seem to affect the tracking at all, pic: http://i.imgur.com/ZWBQH6s.jpg

also taped the sides with some non sticky paper tape because I can't stand rubberized sides: http://i.imgur.com/4FXUnEe.jpg - http://i.imgur.com/YuJmPAg.jpg

oh and last thing, the cable is very good. honestly one of the best I've ever seen, I use a razer mouse bungee raised on a box with an old hdd on top of it so it doesn't move, bad pic: http://i.imgur.com/NWn2d01.jpg


----------



## maddada

ok, after using it for 1 day, I've concluded that I really need to lower the weight to be like the Kana v1, so I've taken out the top pcb that has the dpi and side button switches on it, now it's even better.


----------



## granitov

Any internal pics? I seem to be missing them.

Might be a great mouse... if a Deathadder board fits in.


----------



## maddada

here you go









http://i.imgur.com/LBv367z.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KeXMcFz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MallgGK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hwEpnZh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jq1adQB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kbFKUvd.jpg


----------



## Rynji

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maddada*
> 
> ...
> 
> also taped the sides with some non sticky paper tape because I can't stand rubberized sides: http://i.imgur.com/4FXUnEe.jpg - http://i.imgur.com/YuJmPAg.jpg
> 
> ...


The sides are not rubberised, it is hard plastic with a dotted profile.


----------



## maddada

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rynji*
> 
> The sides are not rubberised, it is hard plastic with a dotted profile.


yes you're right, I dislike all sides that aren't just plain plastic.

the hard plastic with dotted profile on the rival 100 is very slippery, unusable without the tape (for me)


----------



## kicksome

Decided to order one just for the hell of it, I liked the Sensai for its shape and I'm not scared to run it at 500dpi


----------



## daunow

Find it kinda weird how there is no 800 dpi


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daunow*
> 
> Find it kinda weird how there is no 800 dpi


Yeah, if you didn't notice then the 3050 doesn't do 400 cpi intervals, or at least this firmware. You don't want an interpolated sens, trust me. Just use 500 and change your sens accordingly. It is the smallest problem ever.


----------



## Aventadoor

So I got a Qpad DX-20, which got 3320 which is also regarded as a "budget" ish sensor right?
Kinda like a 3050. I dont mind the 3320 at all, and it does feel more responsive then Zowie's 3310.
How does the 3050 feel compared to Zowie's 3310?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> So I got a Qpad DX-20, which got 3320 which is also regarded as a "budget" ish sensor right?
> Kinda like a 3050. I dont mind the 3320 at all, and it does feel more responsive then Zowie's 3310.
> How does the 3050 feel compared to Zowie's 3310?


Imo it felt also a bit more responsive and precise. It also seemed better in the SRAV department.


----------



## Aventadoor

SRAV?

How is the LoD on it?
On the DX-20 its very high... Well, it barely tracks on 2 CD's


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> SRAV?
> 
> How is the LoD on it?
> On the DX-20 its very high... Well, it barely tracks on 2 CD's


Also quite high lod. Especially on the Kiro. Can be customized.
By srav i mean Speed related accuracy variance. Basically accel in layman's terms. 9800 - family - based sensors have some, a bit more than 3050 imo.


----------



## Aventadoor

Can be customized?
From what ive seen on youtube, you cannot adjust LoD in software.
Tape trick no ty


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Can be customized?
> From what ive seen on youtube, you cannot adjust LoD in software.
> Tape trick no ty


I was talking about the Roccat Kiro, sry.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Does this have a 400 dpi step, if so, how is it?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> So I got a Qpad DX-20, which got 3320 which is also regarded as a "budget" ish sensor right?
> Kinda like a 3050. I dont mind the 3320 at all, and it does feel more responsive then Zowie's 3310.
> How does the 3050 feel compared to Zowie's 3310?


Worse in some aspects, better at others.

I wouldn't say it's less responsive (probably more responsive), but it feels less accurate somehow, even at the same DPI. Could be that it just has more prediction, something which I really dislike.


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> Does this have a 400 dpi step, if so, how is it?


The Rival 100? It only has a 500DPI step and its acceptable for gaming, 1000DPI+ it starts to act weirdly. The 3050 only goes up in 250DPI steps and there is currently no 750DPI step.


----------



## Derp

Looking back at this thread I still can't believe Steelseries thought a $40 3050 mouse was a good idea.


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Looking back at this thread I still can't believe Steelseries thought a $40 3050 mouse was a good idea.


why?


----------



## thedogman

Is the newmen gx1 pros sensor implementation better than the rival 100s?


----------



## thedogman

Is this a legit newmen gx1- pro or a different model? It is only $23 on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Newmen-Gaming-Mouse-adjustable-4-Button-Optical/dp/B017B8IYXS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450406251&sr=8-1&keywords=newmen+gx1


----------



## Maximillion

Looks like some variant to the "GX1 Pro" which has side buttons IIRC. That one says GX1-R on the box but if the internals are the same it could be interesting, but the page itself shows conflicting DPIs (400/800/1600/3200 and "up to 2000 DPI").


----------



## thedogman

Yea, and its impossible to get information off newmens website. Ahhhh, maybe I'll jest get the one from newegg.


----------



## Nilizum

That gx1 is an a3050 gx1 that is kinzu shaped. Very low malfunction speed. Wouldn't buy. If you like that shape, there's the Newmen GX1-glare with an a3090 that performs very well.


----------



## HolyDD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maddada*
> 
> just my thoughts about this mouse!
> 
> IMO the sensor is very good on 500dpi 500hz
> -In terms of feeling good in csgo and not hindering my aim at all, feels very good to me and also very dependable, didn't malfunction once on me
> 
> I love the shape coming from the original kana, it's practically the same shape.
> 
> these are some other mice that I've used extensively (keep in mind I like lighter mice and use claw grip):
> kana v2 for 6 months (low max speed, kept malfunctioning),
> old rival (heavy),
> fk1 (unusable clicks),
> za12 (unusable clicks),
> EC1-A (bad shape and unusable clicks),
> DA (too light clicks and the worst shape ever),
> finalmouse (shape isn't for me),
> and many other mice..
> 
> I always went back to the original Kana which I bought over 3 years ago
> (love the shape, love the weight, sensor was alright but frequently malfunctioned and made me look at the ground when flicking)
> 
> now I think I finally found a mouse without any problems, I see myself using the rival100 for a while.
> 
> I tape fixed it to lower the LOD so that if it's lifted the slightest amount it'll stop tracking, and it doesn't seem to affect the tracking at all, pic: http://i.imgur.com/ZWBQH6s.jpg
> 
> also taped the sides with some non sticky paper tape because I can't stand rubberized sides: http://i.imgur.com/4FXUnEe.jpg - http://i.imgur.com/YuJmPAg.jpg
> 
> oh and last thing, the cable is very good. honestly one of the best I've ever seen, I use a razer mouse bungee raised on a box with an old hdd on top of it so it doesn't move, bad pic: http://i.imgur.com/NWn2d01.jpg


I also find the tracking height too much, can the driver adjust it, though ?


----------



## maddada

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HolyDD*
> 
> I also find the tracking height too much, can the driver adjust it, though ?


just put tape over the sensor like this: http://i.imgur.com/ZWBQH6s.jpg

you will need to find a good spot for it once then keep it there.


----------



## Bashslash

Hows this mosue overall, expically for small hands? Should i buy it? Sensor and shape etc?


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bashslash*
> 
> Hows this mosue overall, expically for small hands? Should i buy it? Sensor and shape etc?


Shape is good, build quality on my example as good. Feet are meh. Sensor is okay


----------



## Bashslash

Guess this will be something i might buy, along with the G100s and the xornet 2


----------



## Avant Garde

For someone who's coming from Intellimouse 1.1A this is a good upgrade in both shape and performance terms?


----------



## Avant Garde

Anyone?


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avant Garde*
> 
> Anyone?


It feels smaller than both the wmo and 1.1. Noticebly lower on the front

Sensor wise - its great at 500 dpi. 500hz


----------



## Avant Garde

Thanks!

I'm a fingertip/glaw grip user so this mouse or maybe Kana V2 ?


----------



## falcon26

I wanted to try the Rival 100 just for the sake of it. I got it on Amazon with same day delivery for $35. And if I don't like it returning to Amazon is a breeze. After using the CM Xornet it is good, but I feel its a tad very small tad to small. I want something just a tad bigger. So we'll see if the Rival is that mouse.


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avant Garde*
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> I'm a fingertip/glaw grip user so this mouse or maybe Kana V2 ?


Id pick the rival over the kana


----------



## end0rphine

These vertical sides are a beautiful tribute to the WMO. If these are the adjustments steelseries have in mind, can't wait to see what they plan for a larger version. Not sure if it is related to my ownership of the PCbang edition, but very minute movements don't register properly. Also feels laggy. The rough plastic coating on the PCBang version is better than the other coatings though IMO.


----------



## rpalmer92

To anyone that has used both the Alcor and the Rival 100, which would you suggest I get? 19cm hands, claw grip and 34cm/360 (400dpi, 3 ingame). On paper the Alcor appears to be better spec wise but I'm starting to go away from specs and focus more on shape and comfort as long as it has a usable sensor and the Rival 100 looks to have the better shape.


----------



## drapos

I was in the hunt for a cheap mouse for my secondary PC, that I barely use a couple of times per month. On my main I bought a G502 to replace my mostly dead DeathAdder 3.5, so I wanted to be cheap this time. I even tried to open DA to see if I could repair it, but screws melted before allowing me disassemble it.

You are talking all the time about better options, but they are more expensive than this by far. I bought it today at amazon for 31€, while anything else you advice never goes below 50 bucks. G100 is just 2€ more expensive -while I read here to someone that R100 is as twice as costly







- but the lack of side buttons killed it for me.

At least, will this Rival 100 be comparable at sensor level to my old 3.5G or not even so? You are making me regret buying a cheap mouse


----------



## Avant Garde

Can anybody post Intelli 1.1 and Rival 100 comparison photo?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avant Garde*
> 
> Can anybody post Intelli 1.1 and Rival 100 comparison photo?


Very different shapes.


----------



## Timecard

Just got this mouse and I love it!

Background:
-Right handed
-I've played CS for 12 years with the majority of it being competitive league play (ESEA, CAL, CEVO), and Quake for 1-2 years for fun and warmup.
-Traditionally a Low Sensitivity User (400 dpi 1-1.6 sensitivity)
-My Xai got stolen which I had for about 2 years so I bought the original Rival but something seemed off with it, it didn't seem consistent. RMA'd it and ended up going with Rival 100 since it was closer to my preferred shape (ambidextrous).

Note: If you have or had a Xai/Sensei and are looking for a new mouse, the Rival 100 is slightly smaller but just barely, otherwise very similar feel in hand.

Review: Rival 100 (Proton Yellow)

Shell:
Feels extremely durable, more so than Xai, Sensei and Rival shells. The sides are some form of textured plastic and probably won't wear like some rubber, or slip in your hands. The top coating feels similar to Xai coating but i'm not exactly sure if its exactly the same.

Grip/Style:
Most likely best used with claw or finger tip, I personally use a combination of arm/wrist movements with finger tip grip with low sensitivity.

Mouse Switch Feel:
Mouse clicks feels similar to original Xai but slightly less mushy most likely due to the material and build of the mouse shell.

Scroll:
The scroll movement feels precise and the feel is covered in a grippy rubber material that provide additional 'stick' for your finger.

Performance:
I have currently tested 500dpi as others have stated it being most consistent with both 500hz and 1000hz . (1000hz preferred) Both polling rates are very stable, and 1000hz being more stable than other mice i've had. I have not experienced any jumps or inconsistencies in mouse movements to date while performing fast arm movements during game play.

Lift-off Distance:
Barely tracks with 2 CD/DVDs height so its more closer to 1 and half CD/DVD height, lift is extremely low.

In-game experience:
Overall it has a very good feel in-game as it has a very consistent performance and feel overall.

My personal rating: 9/10
I don't give anything a perfect rating so I would say I have no issues with this mouse at all, it has high performance and build quality, even if its declared as an entry level gaming mouse.
The mouse does not have buttons on the right side of the mouse, so left handed users may have issues with this mice if they use those buttons; if you can live without then this mouse great!


----------



## Avant Garde

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Very different shapes.


You helped A LOT! Thanks!

NOT!


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avant Garde*
> 
> You helped A LOT! Thanks!
> 
> NOT!


Most of the time pictures are misleading.

I can't post a picture of a SteelSeries and IMO comparison because I got rid of the SteelSeries mouse.

You can find some comparison pictures of a Xai/Sensei, Kana or Kinzu. Those are very similar shapes to the Rival 100. The IMO is taller, wider, has a taller front and different finger groove.


----------



## falcon26

I was actually very pleased when i tried the rival 100, i thought it was a very good mouse and shape very comfortable. I liked it better than the mionix castor.....


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avant Garde*
> 
> Can anybody post Intelli 1.1 and Rival 100 comparison photo?





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Maximillion

Did you really need to show off the fact you get Oral?


----------



## qsxcv

dat sensor position is so low


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> dat sensor position is so low


I like to have the sensor as close to my finger tips as possible. A lot of people like the sensor located at the middle of the mouse, I rather have it as close to the scroll wheel as physically possible.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

^Same here. Brb buying G500 Kappa


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Did you really need to show off the fact you get Oral?


lol


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> ^Same here. Brb buying G500 Kappa


I like it further up the mouse because it's easier for me to make very small movements without overshooting small targets.


----------



## trism

The absolute sensor position doesn't really matter that much and it can be deceiving like in this case. In my claw grip the sensor ends up being at the same distance from my wrist than the Aurora's and the g100s'.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I like it further up the mouse because it's easier for me to make very small movements without overshooting small targets.


I'm the exact opposite. I overshoot way more the higher the sensor is located. FK doesn't work for me solely due to the sensor ending up about 1 cm further from my wrist compared to the other mice I have. Same for the KPM.

I use mainly wrist for aiming, but elbow when needed. I played instantly better with the Rival 100 than the KPM and it's most likely due to the sensor position as I like the KPM shape.


----------



## falcon26

What is the default polling rate of the Rival 100, is it 500 or 1000?


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> What is the default polling rate of the Rival 100, is it 500 or 1000?


Its whatever you set and save it to in the software. But out of the box its 1000 i think


----------



## Timecard

Yep out of box it was 1000hz 1000cpi and 2000cpi


----------



## rpalmer92

Okay I think I'm finally gonna pull the plug on one of these. I can't take the damn G303's shape and not knowing whether the loud rattle (sensor wobble?) it makes is affecting my aim. Time to try out a Steelseries mouse!


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> Okay I think I'm finally gonna pull the plug on one of these. I can't take the damn G303's shape and not knowing whether the loud rattle (sensor wobble?) it makes is affecting my aim. Time to try out a Steelseries mouse!


I see another person suffering from shape regret syndrome


----------



## rpalmer92

Edit: nvm


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Imo I feel like a good sensor is needed for consistency. A good shape is needed as well. Peace of mind is a must or you'll hold yourself back so whatever floats your boat go for it


----------



## rpalmer92

Just edited my previous comment back to nothing. I just got home and used my G303 for 2 minutes and cancelled the Rival 100 order. There's just something about this mouse that I can't give up.


----------



## Melan

One of us. One of us. One of us.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> Just edited my previous comment back to nothing. I just got home and used my G303 for 2 minutes and cancelled the Rival 100 order. There's just something about this mouse that I can't give up.


Idk who you are sir, but i am saddened. Lol


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> One of us. One of us. One of us.


I have not used my G303 in a month and a half (disassembled it) am I considered cured?


----------



## TriviumKM

gooble gobble, gooble gobble


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Go away pacman. I cant let you eat my circles before I click them.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I have not used my G303 in a month and a half (disassembled it) am I considered cured?


No,

You're just resisting temptation. I play noticeable better with a G303 compared to any other mouse. But once I've been going for an hour at it, it all falls apart and my hands is in pain.


----------



## drapos

Mouse finally arrived. I bought it while it was out of stock, saving somehow 7 bucks, but it is back to 39€ on Amazon. I wonder why there are so many pricing differences between USA and EU.

Feels lighter and smaller than expected, but it is comfortable enough, just not as godly as Deathadders (big hand, palm grip here). Only concern about ergonomics is B5 button. Small and hard to press, forcing my thumb to arch, B4 is ok though and easily activated with the base of the thumb. Left and right clicks aren't as crisp as other gaming mouses, but them both feel good.

One thing I noticed is it is a bit noisier than other mouses surfing over my Qck cloth pad, just as a curiosity, nothing annoying.

I did a quick comparison with the resident G502. R100 is just plugged in, with no drivers other than windows because I will move it to another PC, so default settings. G502 is at 800DPI, 1000PR:



Obviously, G502 put it to shame sensor wise, but it cost me double the price too.

Anyway, too early for further analisys. I will put it back to box and report if anything goes wrong when I have the chance of use it for longer, with proper drivers and all.


----------



## mint567

So I picked up this mouse yesterday. It seems like a decent mouse for the price. Echoing what everyone else has said it would be nice for a 750 or 1000dpi step that works as well as the 500 dpi step. Lift off is a little high but I think this is because the mouse skates are so thin. As others have said mine also rubs on the mousepad when moving it (qck heavy). This mouse at 500 DPI with a set of hyperglides on the bottom will work well. For the lighting/features you are not able to customize the color of the scroll wheel and logo independently compared to the rival 300.


----------



## Avant Garde

I'm a little bit worried about that black rubber coating. It feels like a skin oils/sweat/dust magnet and I really don't like that. Also don't like that type of coating because on mouse button 1 and 2 just after some months of use mouse looks like it's over few years old. I don't know what is the situation with white version though.


----------



## drapos

I had the chance to try it on the intended PC, with Steelseries drivers.

1st I have to say is CPI 1000 setting is pure garbage. Worse than expected even having read all the thread, while 500 is actually pretty good. But mouse is pretty comfortable and cheap, so I will keep it since it is more than enough for my secondary PC. I wouldn't use it as everyday mouse, though.

With some setting between 500 and 1000 -working as good as 500- it would be a good mouse and an awesome deal, but it feels like Steelseries artificially locked many features after the segment wall while hardware could give a bit more.


----------



## Avant Garde

I've bought this mouse (White version) and it's build quality is really good for a 40€ mouse, it really looks beautiful to be honest, R&L clicks are also good and tracking compared to my old IMO 1.1 is night and day (obviously). Well if I'm gonna nitpick I would say that it feels just a little, well not THAT precise, I really don't know how to describe it. I'm running it CPI = 1000 and Polling rate = 1000 but it's good I guess.

Now for that HUGE con : This mouse is THIN! This mouse is designed for some 5 yo baby hands obviously, I have 20cm hands and I mostly use claw/fingertip grip, sometimes palm but all this is so damn hard with this mouse. I figured that this mouse would be perfect for me if it was just a little bit wider, just a little bit and everything would be fine. Now with mouse this thin I can feel the strain in my palm, maybe it will feel better after some time (muscle memory and stuff lol) but I don't know...

It's such a shame because I really like this shape and overall looks of the mouse, RGB lights are simple and beautiful too.

I will use this another week or so and see if it will get better...

All in all - A great mice for the price but it's too damn thin!


----------



## bruzanHD

The IMO''s tracking is infinitely better. Other than that the only good DPI step is 500. All in all the sensor in this mouse is not to great.


----------



## Avant Garde

Well, what is an alternative with a bit wider body, rgb lights and optical sensor?


----------



## falcon26

I just picked this mouse up at my local computer store. It was on sale for $29 I think its pretty good for the price...


----------



## falcon26

Also from what I have read it looks like the best settings for this mouse are

Polling Rate: 500
CPI: 500

Is that correct?


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> Also from what I have read it looks like the best settings for this mouse are
> 
> Polling Rate: 500
> CPI: 500
> 
> Is that correct?


That is correct. 1000Hz polling also seems to be okay from what I've read.


----------



## falcon26

Does polling rate have any effect on how fast the mouse pointer actually moves? At 500 CPI on my 1440P monitor it moves pretty slow. If I could set like 600 or 800 CPI that would have been great. Also if I increase the speed of the mouse pointer threw the windows control panel does that turn on mouse acceleration or anything like that?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> Does polling rate have any effect on how fast the mouse pointer actually moves?


no, polling and sensitivity (as in dpi) are independent

of course you can create some contrived firmware where that isn't true, but that will never happen in an actual product


----------



## falcon26

OK thanks. I have it currently set to CPI=500 Polling Rate=500 I also went into my mouse setting in windows control panel and uncheck that "enhanced pointer procession" thing....


----------



## falcon26

What exactly is the problem with the mouse at 1000 CPI? Is it something that affects your game play in games like BF4?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> What exactly is the problem with the mouse at 1000 CPI? Is it something that affects your game play in games like BF4?


The mouses sensor is native 500. Anything else is interpolated, causing jitter, smoothing, and other things. When I had a Rival 100 it felt like 1000 CPI was pixel skipping.


----------



## qsxcv

it's not interpolated any differently from how the various cpi steps are derived from e.g. 3366, 3988, 3310, am010/3320, etc...

the sensor itself is just very "weak"/lowend


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> it's not interpolated any differently from how the various cpi steps are derived from e.g. 3366, 3988, 3310, am010/3320, etc...
> 
> the sensor itself is just very "weak"/lowend


How is the sensor weak/lowend?

It appears that 4 non-sponsored CS:GO pros are using it. I think that list will grow to 10-15 in the next few months.


----------



## qsxcv

the base resolution isn't very high to begin with, and it only uses a 19x19 array of pixels, whereas am010/3320 is 26x26, 3090+that old family is 30x30, 9500/9800/3988/3310 is 30x30, 3366 is 36x36

as for "low end", i believe pixart/avago always had sort of a hierarchy of sensors which reflect their pricing and their specs (things like framerate, array size, max dpi, etc...)
for instance,
http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Avago%20PDFs/ADNS-3050.pdf
says entry level

http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/Product_Brief-SDNS3988-PB-161115_20151116150733.pdf
says high performance


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the base resolution isn't very high to begin with, and it only uses a 19x19 array of pixels, whereas am010/3320 is 26x26, 3090+that old family is 30x30, 9500/9800/3988/3310 is 30x30, 3366 is 36x36
> 
> as for "low end", i believe pixart/avago always had sort of a hierarchy of sensors which reflect their pricing and their specs (things like framerate, array size, max dpi, etc...)
> for instance,
> http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Avago%20PDFs/ADNS-3050.pdf
> says entry level
> 
> http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/Product_Brief-SDNS3988-PB-161115_20151116150733.pdf
> says high performance


Fair enough.

I'm currently using a G303 and I swear I used to aim better with older mice like Abby 2k14, ZA12, G400s, Kana v1 etc. I was going to buy a Rival 100 to try out because I was thinking that maybe my aim is suffering because the G303 is weirdly shaped? I did used to play at 400dpi and 2 ingame and have moved to 3 ingame about 5 months ago so that could also be the problem too. Or maybe my new pad. I'm leaning towards the weird shape of the G303 and the fact that it has minimal palm support and like 45mm width at the grip point in claw grip but then I don't know because some days I go nuts and don't miss any shots with the G303 and get called out for cheats. I think that all the shape > sensor arguments could be true one minute, but then the next I just think that my positioning and the way I clear angles and other game sense stuff needs work. As they say, a pro could play with a ball mouse and still own.

What are your thoughts?


----------



## qsxcv

yea all you need to know is that guardian plays with a kinzu v1 at like 80cm/360.
k the click latency is low, but hell the tracking is horrendous


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yea all you need to know is that guardian plays with a kinzu v1 at like 80cm/360.
> k the click latency is low, but hell the tracking is horrendous


So what you're saying is that yeah you can use mice with inferior tracking because of a good shape, but don't expect to be using it at anything faster than 400dpi and 2 or around there? (that seems to be the line for me I need to aim slower and focus more on my crosshair movement - when sens is lower than that I can 'mindlessly' flick onto opponents).

S1mple is using a Sensei Raw on a cloth pad and wins most 1v1s against pro aimers and he's at 29.9cm/360 or 450dpi and 3.09 ingame. In a lot of his twitch streams he purposely positions his crosshair away from small gaps and consistently flicks accurately onto door gaps and stuff when enemies peek just to show off for his viewers. How could that be possible with an inferior sensor especially one that has inconsistent accel?

What about f0rest? He uses EC2-A at 29.7cm/360 and is proclaimed best USP player. Hiko and Elige both use Deathadders at like 25cm/360 and have good aim. Apparently DA has major smoothing.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> What about f0rest? He uses EC2-A at 29.7cm/360 and is proclaimed best USP player. Hiko and Elige both use Deathadders at like 25cm/360 and have good aim. Apparently DA has major smoothing.


Not smoothing, but angle snapping, which makes flicks more consistent/easy.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> So what you're saying is that yeah you can use mice with inferior tracking because of a good shape, but don't expect to be using it at anything faster than 400dpi and 2 or around there?


no i'm saying more or less the same thing you're saying


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no i'm saying more or less the same thing you're saying


So you're saying that shape > sensor? I said about 5 different things but then questioned them because I don't know what is causing my inconsistencies in CS atm.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the base resolution isn't very high to begin with, and it only uses a 19x19 array of pixels, whereas am010/3320 is 26x26, 3090+that old family is 30x30, 9500/9800/3988/3310 is 30x30, 3366 is 36x36
> 
> as for "low end", i believe pixart/avago always had sort of a hierarchy of sensors which reflect their pricing and their specs (things like framerate, array size, max dpi, etc...)
> for instance,
> http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Avago%20PDFs/ADNS-3050.pdf
> says entry level
> 
> http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/Product_Brief-SDNS3988-PB-161115_20151116150733.pdf
> says high performance


Is there physically 40x40 pixels with only 36x36 being used through a code limitation? CPate says they limited the resolution on the 3366 intentionally. In other words, is it actually a 40x40 not a 36x36 array?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s64M5hnSMjE&t=5m22s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> How is the sensor weak/lowend?
> 
> It appears that 4 non-sponsored CS:GO pros are using it. I think that list will grow to 10-15 in the next few months.


Why use a Rival 100 when you can use a Zowie ZA or FK?

The Rival 100 has an office sensor in a cheap shell. I don't see why a pro would want to use that willfully.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yea all you need to know is that guardian plays with a kinzu v1 at like 80cm/360.
> k the click latency is low, but hell the tracking is horrendous


Simple and Guardian are primarily AWPers. They don't need super amazing sensors to do that role. If a sensor isn't very good it's okay because they are going for body shots with a scoped gun.

The heavy angle snapping of the 3305 would help Guardian a lot during those flick shots. It also helps him land those Deagle head shots.


----------



## qsxcv

kinzu v1 uses the vt5366, but yea quite a bit of angle snapping

will watch that video later


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Why use a Rival 100 when you get use a Zowie ZA or FK?
> 
> The Rival 100 has an office sensor in a cheap shell. I don't see why a pro would want to use that willfully.
> Simple and Guardian are primarily AWPers. They don't need super amazing sensors to do that role. If a sensor isn't very good it's okay because they are going for body shots with a scoped gun.
> 
> The heavy angle snapping of the 3305 would help Guardian a lot during those flick shots, it also helps him land those Deagle head shots.


The Rival 100 is half the price of the Zowies here in Australia. $90 AUD for Zowie vs $41 AUD for Rival 100.

Also, I think he can land those shots simply because he had good crosshair placement in those situations and he uses a super low sens so it's easy to adjust a few mm using your arm to hit the shot. I used to be a Deagle god and regularly dropped 30s with Deagle only at GE rank (and get called a hacker) with my old G400s on 400dpi and 1.5 sens. It was very tiring on the arm clearing angles and stuff with such a low sens and found I much prefer a lighter mouse with my sens at 3 in game but man my aim gets messy sometimes now. As you can see the movements aren't as smooth - they're jittery even - and I miss a lot. Spraying seems a lot harder too.

These videos show you that. First one (Deagle 3k) is with G400s at 400dpi/1.5 ingame and second and third vid (P2K ace and double ace) is G303 at 400dpi/3 ingame.












One theory I had was that it's easier to aim at all sensitivities with a heavier mouse and/or a really grippy mousepad as you can stop on flicks much easier. My current combo (G303 and Kingston HyperX Pro pad) is much more slippery than my old one (G400s and QCK+ which is known to be grippy combo) and I was also considering that my aim could be suffering due to lack of control and stopping power?

I have good aim and positioning and can jump into DM and have a 2-3 k/d with ease but it seems that a lot of the time in actual games I'm getting dropped by some kid using a sens that's half mine because they can sit long range or hold a corner really tight and they never miss that first adjustments to my head.

Actually, here is some evidence to back my theory. Here is a YouTube clip I found of some kid doing the aim map that friberg practices on. Friberg the entry god averages about 85/100 and this kid just gets high 90s to clean 100s with ease and he uses a heavy af mouse (G500s) and I'm guessing a popular pad like QCK or Goliathus. See how he has a really clean, smooth flick and then he stops his crosshair dead on target and it doesn't wobble or anything on the stopping part? If you watch anyone else, Friberg included, play that map or just flick around in aim_botz or anything you'll notice their aim wobbles a bit when they flick on the stop part -- much like the 'sensor wobble' effect that people complain about on the G303 which is apparently due to loose lens but it's actually human error because of a super light mouse and a slippery mouse pad. Heavy mouse + grippy pad = better flick aim? Also note that the G500s laser sensor has inconsistent accel but that doesn't affect this bloke at all. H'e sharp as a tack.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Why use a Rival 100 when you can use a Zowie ZA or FK?


*Very* different shapes. FK doesn't have a butt at all and the ZA has a big bump which is annoying for a claw grip. Also, the sensor position in Zowies tend to be quite high up. I wouldn't say the shell is cheap, it feels very sturdy. The sensor is what it is - but at least (imo) it feels more responsive than the PMW3310, especially on slow movements.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> kinzu v1 uses the vt5366, but yea quite a bit of angle snapping
> 
> will watch that video later


Whoops... I just thought of the later models and my past experience with that sensor. So, I forgot about the early versions. The point still is valid though.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> *Very* different shapes. FK doesn't have a butt at all and the ZA has a big bump which is annoying for a claw grip. Also, the sensor position in Zowies tend to be quite high up. I wouldn't say the shell is cheap, it feels very sturdy. The sensor is what it is - but at least (imo) it feels more responsive than the PMW3310, especially on slow movements.


There is the FK1 if you don't like the ZA or the smaller FK2.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> The Rival 100 is half the price of the Zowies here in Australia. $90 AUD for Zowie vs $41 AUD for Rival 100.
> 
> Also, I think he can land those shots simply because he had good crosshair placement in those situations and he uses a super low sens so it's easy to adjust a few mm using your arm to hit the shot. I used to be a Deagle god and regularly dropped 30s with Deagle only at GE rank (and get called a hacker) with my old G400s on 400dpi and 1.5 sens. It was very tiring on the arm clearing angles and stuff with such a low sens and found I much prefer a lighter mouse with my sens at 3 in game but man my aim gets messy sometimes now. As you can see the movements aren't as smooth - they're jittery even - and I miss a lot. Spraying seems a lot harder too.
> 
> One theory I had was that it's easier to aim at all sensitivities with a heavier mouse and/or a really grippy mousepad as you can stop on flicks much easier. My current combo (G303 and Kingston HyperX Pro pad) is much more slippery than my old one (G400s and QCK+ which is known to be grippy combo) and I was also considering that my aim could be suffering due to lack of control and stopping power?
> 
> I have good aim and positioning and can jump into DM and have a 2-3 k/d with ease but it seems that a lot of the time in actual games I'm getting dropped by some kid using a sens that's half mine because they can sit long range or hold a corner really tight and they never miss that first adjustments to my head.
> 
> Actually, here is some evidence to back my theory. Here is a YouTube clip I found of some kid doing the aim map that friberg practices on. Friberg the entry god averages about 85/100 and this kid just gets high 90s to clean 100s with ease and he uses a heavy af mouse (G500s) and I'm guessing a popular pad like QCK or Goliathus. See how he has a really clean, smooth flick and then he stops his crosshair dead on target and it doesn't wobble or anything on the stopping part? If you watch anyone else, Friberg included, play that map or just flick around in aim_botz or anything you'll notice their aim wobbles a bit when they flick on the stop part -- much like the 'sensor wobble' effect that people complain about on the G303 which is apparently due to loose lens but it's actually human error because of a super light mouse and a slippery mouse pad. Heavy mouse + grippy pad = better flick aim? Also note that the G500s laser sensor has inconsistent accel but that doesn't affect this bloke at all. H'e sharp as a tack.


Price is irrelevant to pro players. Only the number on the check matters.

You can see in the second video of Guardian how level/straight his movements are when he flicks his mouse around. Keep in mind that he is running on the uneven ground in Inferno. At least that's my observation.

When I was watching Guardian play I thought, "why is his movements so perfectly level every time he swipes?" When I saw him play window on Mirage he tracked heads with perfectly leveled cursor movement. He lands a lot of flick Deagle shots, to the point people like Lurppis think he is the best Deagle user. After a discussion on the forum, I looked up his mouse, I wasn't surprised to see he was using a Kinzu. Obviously, a low sensitivity will make it more difficult to make mistakes, but it doesn't make you have perfectly straight movements all the time.

I find larger mouse feet aid in controlling lighter mice. A light mouse, with small feet and a slick mouse pad can make stopping precisely after a fast flick quite difficult. You could work on adapting to the mouse or mess with the feet and/or mouse pad.

I don't like to have a lot of static friction and I like a lighter mouse. With my sensitivity, stopping exactly where I want is a little difficult on my Hien while using IntelliMouse feet. I adapt by using my wrist more... The larger AM feet make it much easier to stop on my Hien, but I don't like the static friction. There is a balance that I have yet to achieve.


----------



## trism

...and there's the Rival 100 for those who like it. Wish it would've been a bit smaller though.


----------



## trifonov

i usually set 500hz, but in case of rival 100 it seems like, that it feels micro movements at 1000hz a bit better. anybody?


----------



## Aymanb

So Rival 100, G100s, Abyssus 2014... which has the best sensor and LOD?

I don't mind the 500 DPI, just with the G100s it's impossible to play with and keep a steady aim when the LOD is so high, makes the cursor feel jittery and hard to control... is this the same case with the Rival 100?


----------



## trism

Rival 100 has a high LOD. 2-3 mm depending on the mouse pad.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Is there physically 40x40 pixels with only 36x36 being used through a code limitation? CPate says they limited the resolution on the 3366 intentionally. In other words, is it actually a 40x40 not a 36x36 array?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s64M5hnSMjE&t=5m22s


physically it is 40x40, as you could tell from my photo
i'm not sure if the hardware and algorithms coded in the silicon level support more than 36x36 though; i'd doubt it.

i believe that he means the 12000dpi limitation is sort of an arbitrary cap; they could have capped it higher but the jitter would be unbearable (like how my modded g100s at 10500 jitters like mad)


----------



## Poodle

Byali from Virtus pro and Dupreeh from Astralis (TSM) both played good last weekend with Rival 100. Both were top fraggers on their teams.


----------



## 2shellbonus

Guys, beyond a certain point mouse sensor performance plays little to no role in performance.

The biggest thing is - you need to be comfortable and used to the mouse.

And as for inconsistencies its most likely you and not the mouse.

3050 in the rival is great for low sens at 500 cpi. It's great at 1000 cpi at low medium sens since pixel skipping and jitter still have no impact in game...

High sens depends a lot more on sensor jitter, angle snapping and pixel skipping. But we all know high sens is not the most consistent


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> Byali from Virtus pro and Dupreeh from Astralis (TSM) both played good last weekend with Rival 100. Both were top fraggers on their teams.


That Neo... Wasn't Snax using a Rival 100?

http://www.hltv.org/match/2300415-virtuspro-mousesports-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016
http://www.hltv.org/match/2300430-virtuspro-dignitas-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016

Hmm... 1 map.

http://www.hltv.org/match/2300414-astralis-dignitas-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016
http://www.hltv.org/match/2300428-mousesports-astralis-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016
http://www.hltv.org/match/2300439-astralis-luminosity-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016


----------



## Aymanb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That Neo... Wasn't Snax using a Rival 100?
> 
> http://www.hltv.org/match/2300415-virtuspro-mousesports-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016
> http://www.hltv.org/match/2300430-virtuspro-dignitas-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016
> 
> Hmm... 1 map.
> http://www.hltv.org/match/2300414-astralis-dignitas-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016
> http://www.hltv.org/match/2300428-mousesports-astralis-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016
> http://www.hltv.org/match/2300439-astralis-luminosity-dreamhack-zowie-open-leipzig-2016


Here's a picture of byali's mouse for Dreamhack, the latest event they played:

http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/7560-full/1453471479.7171.jpeg

And here's neo with the FK:

http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/7560-full/1453500380.4253.jpeg

Both Pasha and Snax also has the FK.


----------



## Poodle

I just love my alchemy gold edition Rival 100 <3 Perfect. Its like Sensei with side buttons and optical sensor <3 <3


----------



## Poodle

And I got to say RocketJumpNinja's review about Rival 100 is inaccurate asf. Side buttons are good. It doesnt scratch mouse pad. Build quality is very good.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2shellbonus*
> 
> Guys, beyond a certain point mouse sensor performance plays little to no role in performance.
> 
> The biggest thing is - you need to be comfortable and used to the mouse.
> 
> And as for inconsistencies its most likely you and not the mouse.
> 
> 3050 in the rival is great for low sens at 500 cpi. It's great at 1000 cpi at low medium sens since pixel skipping and jitter still have no impact in game...
> 
> High sens depends a lot more on sensor jitter, angle snapping and pixel skipping. But we all know high sens is not the most consistent


I also feel like R100 is underrated by people who don't really know what they're talking about (mostly) - saying that the 3050 is crap etc. It's quite raw and behaves relatively well. I also used it at 500cpi. I prefer its implementation to any 3310, 3988 or 3090 (maybe save for the Savu).


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> And I got to say RocketJumpNinja's review about Rival 100 is inaccurate asf. Side buttons are good. It doesnt scratch mouse pad. Build quality is very good.


My Rival 100 did scratch the mousepad. The feet were also a bit uneven but I removed them and added some 3.0 type skates. Now the only problem I have with it is the main buttons switches. Side buttons are indeed pretty good imo.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> OK thanks. I have it currently set to CPI=500 Polling Rate=500 I also went into my mouse setting in windows control panel and uncheck that "enhanced pointer procession" thing....


You should use a polling rate of a 1000hz if you use a 120hz/144hz monitor if not try both and use the one you feels better for you in game, that is if you feel any difference.


----------



## falcon26

I have it set now to 500 polling rate and CPI at 1000 for desktop use. I then set the CPI to 1000 for in game. If I use 500 CPI on the desktop it moves way to slow for my 1440P monitor.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> I have it set now to 500 polling rate and CPI at 1000 for desktop use. I then set the CPI to 1000 for in game. If I use 500 CPI on the desktop it moves way to slow for my 1440P monitor.


Set windows pointer speed to 6/11


----------



## buckwheat

I have it and it's very ambidextrous. Almost like a kind v2


----------



## Avant Garde

Is it better to have this mouse connected to USB 2.0 or 3.0 ? It feels like left and right clicks are somewhat laggy, a bit slower on response and mushy...

Polling rate - 500
CPI - 1000


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> And I got to say RocketJumpNinja's review about Rival 100 is inaccurate asf. Side buttons are good. It doesnt scratch mouse pad. Build quality is very good.


But he's an fps veteran!


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> But he's an fps veteran!


I think he does a good job


----------



## Aymanb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> I think he does a good job


He does.

Better than all of these casual people that doesn't know anything about mice in competition that just sits there and talk about all the things you already know.

Only problem I have with Rocket ninja is all the nonsense he cares about sometimes... like "look at how it sounds, when i rub my finger on it" I mean come on now.


----------



## Avant Garde

My biggest concern with this mouse is it's width. It's pretty damn thin for everyone with ~18cm/19cm/20cm hands!

Can't use palm grip because it's too low and short for any bigger size hand.
Can't use claw grip because it's too thin on these spots and that puts a lot of strain on these points of my palm.





Other than that it is one of the most beautiful mice I've ever seen!

*STEELSERIES MAKE RIVAL 200, LET IT BE THE SAME SHAPE BUT WITH SLIGHTLY BIGGER SHELL!*


----------



## trism

I have 18.5 cm hand and use a claw grip. I'd prefer if it was a bit smaller, it's a bit too wide for me to get a perfect claw grip.


----------



## Aymanb

Is it normal that the scroll wheel rattles already when I shake the mouse? Literally just got it 30 min ago..


----------



## trism

Probably not. Can't test it properly at the moment because the mouse is sitting on my desk without the top cover but even without it I have to shake the mouse quite vigorously before the scroll wheel starts to rattle just a tiny bit. The top cover has plastic bits that are meant to keep the scroll wheel more firmly in-place.


----------



## Aymanb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Probably not. Can't test it properly at the moment because the mouse is sitting on my desk without the top cover but even without it I have to shake the mouse quite vigorously before the scroll wheel starts to rattle just a tiny bit. The top cover has plastic bits that are meant to keep the scroll wheel more firmly in-place.


Thanks, I'll ask for return.. there was even some scratches on the corner which highly suggest this was used before. I'll give them an earful and get some replacement, probably ask for a Rival 300 instead since I'm not so happy about the LOD of this one, although the shape is nice.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aymanb*
> 
> Thanks, I'll ask for return.. there was even some scratches on the corner which highly suggest this was used before. I'll give them an earful and get some replacement, probably ask for a Rival 300 instead since I'm not so happy about the LOD of this one, although the shape is nice.


Try the "tape trick" if you like the R100.R300 is quite a different mouse size and sensor(feel) wise.

Also Kana v2 is a familiar to R100 and has a nice sensor too.


----------



## Aymanb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Try the "tape trick" if you like the R100.R300 is quite a different mouse size and sensor(feel) wise.
> 
> Also Kana v2 is a familiar to R100 and has a nice sensor too.


I come from a IE 3.0 background, so I'm confident I will be able to get along with the Rival size and shape. I liked the build quality and design, but the buttons were stiff, the scroll wheel was rattling, there was a bunch of scratches in the corner and the high LOD gives me the sense of inaccuracy, I want to avoid playing with a budget mouse.

Returned it and got the Rival 300 instead, I'll see how I like this one.


----------



## natshuba

any1 knwo if the Gaia Green is glossy or rubber ?


----------



## Maximillion

I believe they're all glossy other than the regular black one.


----------



## natshuba

my friend hast he purple one and that wasn't glossy, maybe if it isnt like 'black' its glossy? idk would love to knowt hough!


----------



## Halloechen

So I bought this mouse and experienced it's dragging / scratching on the mousepad. However I am not sure what exactly causes it. Some people mentioned it is the protrusion at the sensor, but when I put it on a flat plane it seems like it doesn't reach the bottom (even when puttin the hand on it).

Can it be that it's caused by the shape of the glidepads? The shape of the glidepads have sharp edges and corners. Most other glidepads on mice are rounded or oval. These glidepad shapes however have pointed angles.

But I'm still not sure because the exact place of the scraping sound is hard to determine.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Halloechen*
> 
> So I bought this mouse and experienced it's dragging / scratching on the mousepad. However I am not sure what exactly causes it. Some people mentioned it is the protrusion at the sensor, but when I put it on a flat plane it seems like it doesn't reach the bottom (even when puttin the hand on it).
> 
> Can it be that it's caused by the shape of the glidepads? The shape of the glidepads have sharp edges and corners. Most other glidepads on mice are rounded or oval. These glidepad shapes however have pointed angles.
> 
> But I'm still not sure because the exact place of the scraping sound is hard to determine.


It's the middle part around the sensor. Was dragging for me too.


----------



## Halloechen

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> It's the middle part around the sensor. Was dragging for me too.


Are you sure? Also it seems more obtrusive when moving the mouse in left-right direction, but much less when moving up-down. Of course this behavior could also be explained by the thinner touch area when moving up-down.

Also the scratching noise is kinda irregular. Like it "feels" inhomogenity on the mousepad (using a Fireglider fabric mat; doesn't change anything on a flat mat though). I got some mice with rubbed off feet and they scratch permanently and consistently. Not so with this mouse. It's sometimes stronger and less strong - which is actually what makes it more annoying than the others.

On a sidenote I found out that the Fireglider mouse has a small plastic ring circumventing the glidepads. Maybe this is why it glides like a charm? Almost noiseless. The steelseries has not. And my other scratching mice don't have it either.

Btw. the sidebuttons are awfully loud. Othere than these 2 issues seems like a good mouse.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Halloechen*
> 
> Are you sure? Also it seems more obtrusive when moving the mouse in left-right direction, but much less when moving up-down. Of course this behavior could also be explained by the thinner touch area when moving up-down.
> 
> Also the scratching noise is kinda irregular. Like it "feels" inhomogenity on the mousepad (using a Fireglider fabric mat; doesn't change anything on a flat mat though). I got some mice with rubbed off feet and they scratch permanently and consistently. Not so with this mouse. It's sometimes stronger and less strong - which is actually what makes it more annoying than the others.
> 
> On a sidenote I found out that the Fireglider mouse has a small plastic ring circumventing the glidepads. Maybe this is why it glides like a charm? Almost noiseless. The steelseries has not. And my other scratching mice don't have it either.
> 
> Btw. the sidebuttons are awfully loud. Othere than these 2 issues seems like a good mouse.


Why do you even go through the trouble of writing this post. Just slap some new feet on top of the old ones and be done with it. One thing you need to know with SS mice - their stock feet suck.


----------



## trism

Don't slap new feet on top of the original ones since that adds distance between the sensor and the surface causing more error. The protrusion at the sensor isn't the part that touches the mouse pad unless you use a 6 mm thick sponge-bob-pad and use tons of force to press the mouse down. The standard feet in Rival 100 are pretty good (better glide than Hotline games competition), but they do have really sharp edges. They are also thicker than 0.6 mm. If you plan on keeping the mouse, you can create a "curve" simply by pressing the edges with something not sharp.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Don't slap new feet on top of the original ones since that adds distance between the sensor and the surface causing more error. The protrusion at the sensor isn't the part that touches the mouse pad unless you use a 6 mm thick sponge-bob-pad and use tons of force to press the mouse down. The standard feet in Rival 100 are pretty good (better glide than Hotline games competition), but they do have really sharp edges. They are also thicker than 0.6 mm. If you plan on keeping the mouse, you can create a "curve" simply by pressing the edges with something not sharp.


What are you talking about...

Well, change the feet or add. Doesn't matter. Same effect.


----------



## Halloechen

@ramraze: you were right. It's the middle part, the sensor protrusion.

I investigated it closely on the hardcover of a book. The protrusion almost touches the bookcover by default. If a little bit of weight on the mouse, and it clearly touches the bookcover. Of course if the mouse mat is not hard, but soft, then it's even worse. Then the small inhomogeneities of the pad make it scratch anyways. The original fireglider mouse for comparison remains stable with its distance to the mousemat. Even with pressure on it. And it even has a lower LOD.

*sigh*... what a joke this is... only solution is glidepads with double thickness (which I haven't got). But not sure if worth...


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Halloechen*
> 
> @ramraze: you were right. It's the middle part, the sensor protrusion.
> 
> I investigated it closely on the hardcover of a book. The protrusion almost touches the bookcover by default. If a little bit of weight on the mouse, and it clearly touches the bookcover. Of course if the mouse mat is not hard, but soft, then it's even worse. Then the small inhomogeneities of the pad make it scratch anyways. The original fireglider mouse for comparison remains stable with its distance to the mousemat. Even with pressure on it. And it even has a lower LOD.
> 
> *sigh*... what a joke this is... only solution is glidepads with double thickness (which I haven't got). But not sure if worth...


Yup. With the given high lod I just slapped some slim feet on top, small ones (mx300 ones). It did actually glide like a charm and still had good sensor performance, unfortunately the mouse was a bit too flat for me.


----------



## asp93

wich is better this rival100 or kinzu v3? i'm 800-1000dpi user


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asp93*
> 
> wich is better this rival100 or kinzu v3? i'm 800-1000dpi user


Rival 100 > Kinzu v3, Kinzu v3 has terrible button latency.


----------



## racer11

Has anyone else noticed that at least 3 virtus.pro players used the rival 100 on the recent mlg major? And people keep thinking that a good sensor makes a huge difference.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *racer11*
> 
> Has anyone else noticed that at least 3 virtus.pro players used the rival 100 on the recent mlg major? And people keep thinking that a good sensor makes a huge difference.


80-90% of people on this forum will tell you that the shape is more important than the sensor, if it feels good in your hand then that is the most important thing, then after that is the sensor and click latency imo.


----------



## trism

I think Dupreeh uses it as well. It's a good mouse for what it is, 500 CPI is fine. I prefer it over any PMW3310 mouse I've tried sensor-wise. I wish they'd make a smaller version without the side dot protrusions though. Like a Kinzu with side buttons.

I just switched Omron D2FC-F-7N's to my Rival 100 and I have to say that they feel much worse. FFS. Yes, they sound more high-pitched but they are much more mushy and less tactile.


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *racer11*
> 
> Has anyone else noticed that at least 3 virtus.pro players used the rival 100 on the recent mlg major? And people keep thinking that a good sensor makes a huge difference.


From I saw 4 of them were using Rival 100 and byali was using Rival 300. But Virtus.pro are sponsored by Crapseries.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I think Dupreeh uses it as well. It's a good mouse for what it is, 500 CPI is fine. I prefer it over any PMW3310 mouse I've tried sensor-wise. I wish they'd make a smaller version without the side dot protrusions though. Like a Kinzu with side buttons.
> 
> I just switched Omron D2FC-F-7N's to my Rival 100 and I have to say that they feel much worse. FFS. Yes, they sound more high-pitched but they are much more mushy and less tactile.


What are the original switches in it? SS Orange tops?


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> What are the original switches in it? SS Orange tops?


Yes. Is it TTC or Kailh with SS logo?
http://i.imgur.com/soJjKIQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TuhOGhs.jpg


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m1hka*
> 
> Yes. Is it TTC or Kailh with SS logo?
> http://i.imgur.com/soJjKIQ.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/TuhOGhs.jpg


I have no idea, that might be a question to ask Soo8. I'm intrigued as to how Omrons made the buttons feel mushy though, it should be the opposite. SS Orange tops are considered as mushy, so the Omrons should feel noticeably better.


----------



## trism

They sound mushier, but they are crispier in how they work. They feel more tactile, have a little more resistance and the click is more pronounced. I dislike Omrons the most anyways. Maybe some other version of Omrons would be better for me.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> They sound mushier, but they are crispier in how they work. They feel more tactile, have a little more resistance and the click is more pronounced. I dislike Omrons the most anyways. Maybe some other version of Omrons would be better for me.


I prefer Huanos over Omrons because Huanos are more tactile, wish more companies had stiffer clicks like Zowie because I love the stiff clicks but generally just dislike any of the newer Zowie mice.

EDIT: 400th post


----------



## Timecard

I actually dislike the stiffer clicks on the Rival 100 at least for FPS as a rifler in CS. I feel like the time between presses (probably a technical term for this) is negatively impacted because of it, which gives it a feeling of input delay.


----------



## Poodle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timecard*
> 
> I actually dislike the stiffer clicks on the Rival 100 at least for FPS as a rifler in CS. I feel like the time between presses (probably a technical term for this) is negatively impacted because of it, which gives it a feeling of input delay.


This is why I still use Sensei Raw Rubberized. Buttons are just so much better.


----------



## rugi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m1hka*
> 
> From I saw 4 of them were using Rival 100 and byali was using Rival 300. But Virtus.pro are sponsored by Crapseries.


Maybe thats why they've been struggling the past few months. They used to all use a variation of FK1s and EC1-a mice.


----------



## solz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rugi*
> 
> Maybe thats why they've been struggling the past few months. They used to all use a variation of FK1s and EC1-a mice.


Dupreeh also uses the Rival 100


----------



## rss013

Not sure if someone can help me me out with this but I've been using the Logitech G400 for over 3 years now and i'm thinking of making the step to the rival 100 mouse.
Is there anyone familiar with both of these mices and know if it's worth it to replace my current g400? It's still working good after those 3 years but i'm just in the need of something else i guess.
My main purpose is to use it for FPS games (CSGO).


----------



## Timecard

I haven't had a g400, however the rival sensor pretty much only operates at it's best on 500dpi and the switches are stiffer than I would personally like, I'm looking at getting Zowie ZA12 which should address any issues I have with the Rival 100.

Hope this helps.


----------



## rss013

Thanks for your reply. I personally don't like stiff switches aswell so i might go look for something else







.


----------



## Timecard

I've been using this mouse for a few months now and the mouse 1 switch has degraded significantly, it now feels like it sticks and sounds completely different than the less used mouse 2 switch.


----------



## ralloff

.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timecard*
> 
> I've been using this mouse for a few months now and the mouse 1 switch has degraded significantly, it now feels like it sticks and sounds completely different than the less used mouse 2 switch.


I had the same thing happen with the Rival100. Mouse 'click' pretty much disappeared entirely and it felt like a spongy linear switch.

Could be an issue with the mouse, but I also had a similar issue with the ZA12.

Za12 example was different though, as that had the issue when I got the mouse and then got worse with use, which I count as DOA. The rival100 was crisp on arrival and then got way worse than the ZA12 ever did (spongier and less clicky).

Shame since I actually didn't mind the shape. Iwas planning to stick with it until it was time to be disappointed by the scream one.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ralloff*
> 
> .I had the same thing happen with the Rival100. Mouse 'click' pretty much disappeared entirely and it felt like a spongy linear switch.


Solution is easy, replace the worn out switch with another brand new one.

That way you can retain your fave mouse longer than required before throwing away more money on another mouse but of course if you like buying more mice to add to your collection, then please pardon me for mentioning this.


----------



## ralloff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Solution is easy, replace the worn out switch with another brand new one.
> 
> That way you can retain your fave mouse longer than required before throwing away more money on another mouse but of course if you like buying more mice to add to your collection, then please pardon me for mentioning this.


This was actually after less than a month of playing with the mouse so I returned it. I don't think the issue was with the switch in either case, but rather the shell or whatever that makes contact with the switch. In both instances. the left clicker/shell had some play that got worse as the problem got worse. I really see no reason any switches should be wearing down within even a period of 5 or more years. If the dell mice my college uses can click perfectly for almost a decade, I see no reason why gaming mice should be failing after a few weeks, even if they were to cheap out incredibly.

It's much more likely the issue lies in a poorly designed shell/mechanism rather than than the switches which should last even on the ultra cheap end. Then again, it doesn't surprise me when "High end gaming equipment" is less reliable than the 1 dollar ambidextrous mice my school gets for free with thin clients. I've been looking for a new mouse that I can use for at least three years and will be almost as comfy/versatile as my old WMO. After four months of looking all I've found is that the whole industry is a joke.

That said, I didn't love the Rival100 so it's not a big deal; got my money back. EZ


----------



## Alex11223

How bad is this mouse on 2000 DPI if I am not a hardc0re MLG CS:GO player?
Just looking for a good small mouse for some gaming and work to replace old Kone Pure that started to double click =\
And 500 DPI is too low on 3840x1200.


----------



## badben25

I tried a new Rival 100 (Forged Red, glossy top) and the out of the box the left click button was much harder to press than the right click button. I know that sometimes there can be a slight difference in the buttons but here the left click was much worse. It was becoming uncomfortable and difficult to use.

Is there anything I can do about it?


----------



## Timecard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alex11223*
> 
> How bad is this mouse on 2000 DPI if I am not a hardc0re MLG CS:GO player?
> Just looking for a good small mouse for some gaming and work to replace old Kone Pure that started to double click =\
> And 500 DPI is too low on 3840x1200.


The mouse operates worst the higher you go past 500dpi, I wouldn't recommend this for high dpi mouse.


----------



## Timecard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> I tried a new Rival 100 (Forged Red, glossy top) and the out of the box the left click button was much harder to press than the right click button. I know that sometimes there can be a slight difference in the buttons but here the left click was much worse. It was becoming uncomfortable and difficult to use.
> 
> Is there anything I can do about it?


The left click only gets worst with time, I'm doing an RMA with Steelseries. i got approved yesterday.


----------



## pez

Picked this up and used it some today. I'm actually in love with the shape and feel. Perfect weight and the buttons aren't bothering me so far.

I like it so much, I'm already tempted to add another to my collection as a backup. However, it seems the left-click thing is common. How many of you actually have one that's holding up past 6 months?


----------



## trism

Mine is fine and feels like new even though I even desoldered them once and soldered them back in a few days later. I've been using this mouse as my main since it was released. Probably only 1-1½ months of that using something else, so it should be a bit over 6 months.


----------



## pez

Good to hear. I'm enjoying the shape in a couple different grip styles and it's surprised to me. My hand is 22cm, and it's comfortable of course in fingertip grip, but I'm able to get it just comfortable under the base of my ring and pinky finger. It's a somewhat weird claw/fingertip hybrid, even though my palm doesn't rest on the mouse at all.

Good weight to it, and it truly is what I'd call a 'good' Kinzu. I have yet to get it to malfunction at 500 CPI in CS:GO, so I'm very happy. Clicks aren't as precise feeling as my Zowie mouse, but they are just as tactile...if that makes sense. Left click feels better than right, but the right being stiffer for CS:GO is a good thing, IMO.


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timecard*
> 
> The left click only gets worst with time, I'm doing an RMA with Steelseries. i got approved yesterday.


Had you opened your Rival 100 before requesting RMA? I wonder if that will be a problem.


----------



## Timecard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> Had you opened your Rival 100 before requesting RMA? I wonder if that will be a problem.


No that would violate warranty i'm sure.


----------



## kackbratze

Anyone ever had any problems with a malfunctioning left mouse button? I think my rival 100 skips a click every now and then. Or my chrome is malfunctioning...


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kackbratze*
> 
> Anyone ever had any problems with a malfunctioning left mouse button? I think my rival 100 skips a click every now and then. Or my chrome is malfunctioning...


Quite a few reports of this on Amazon reviews. Some users here have reported it, and I actually recently asked about it within the last few pages







.


----------



## Timecard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kackbratze*
> 
> Anyone ever had any problems with a malfunctioning left mouse button? I think my rival 100 skips a click every now and then. Or my chrome is malfunctioning...


According to some people this can be fixed by disabling the LED lights.


----------



## Ufasas

Missed this shape, was really good grip, just sensor a bit off, actually thinking of rebuying this, wonder how good will be zowie fk1+ shape, now going just down to the shape thing, sensor 2nd place

P.S. (2016-05-07) So got it again, lols, just for the love of shape, a pc bang version costing 20 GBP instead of original version costing 31-32 GBP in UK



(Rival 100 PC Bang) . LoL, I think i'm ready to bang somebody with this bangy, i repeat, bangy version


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timecard*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> Had you opened your Rival 100 before requesting RMA? I wonder if that will be a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> No that would violate warranty i'm sure.
Click to expand...

I've done it numerous times before sending out for an RMA.

No probs, just don't go raping the plastic housing trying to get the screws out otherwise the 'retailer' will notice that easily.

Final trick for those wanting to remove any sticker off any of the screw holes, is to use a heat gun to soften the adhesive on the sticker. It works every time but don't go holding the gun too close to the mouse otherwise it'll look like melted chocolate.


----------



## Melan

Yeah, follow Elrick's tips on warranty violation. He'll teach you how to get the mouse you want and make retailer pay for it.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> He'll teach you how to get the mouse you want and make retailer pay for it.


Damn, you're now making me out to be some kind of "Evil Influence" here on OCN Central







.


----------



## TDK5

Is it meant to be that way?
Left click heavier than Right click?
Please let me know because I have the same situation.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> 
> 
> (Rival 100 PC Bang) . LoL, I think i'm ready to bang somebody with this bangy, i repeat, bangy version


You think this version is the one that finally beats the G100S







?


----------



## Woz_Ginge

Hi Guys.

So I picked this up the other day for £19.99. I got the white version to go with a white mechanical keyboard I bought too. Everything on my desk is black and I need some contrast!

I'm having seconds thoughts whether to bother with this mouse as opinion seems to be split in this thread about the R100. I'm using a Roccat Lua/Arvo mouse and keyboard combo. The Lua is decent but I miss forward and back buttons. Shape-wise it too small tbh and its very shallow. I also want an illuminated keyboard (which is why I bought the white keyboard). The thing is the Arvo and Lua work well with Ubuntu due to driver support. I have found a Python app that will change the settings on the R100 but I've not installed it yet ( I will do that today) but the R100 does not have onboard memory so I will have to run the command line (If I'm gaming) every time I boot up Ubuntu.

Oh my what should I do! Send it back or keep it? I'm thinking I should have just kept the Lua and bought a Roccat TKL illuminated keyboard which is up for a good price on Amazon at the moment.

I remember playing on Quake speaking to some geezer and he told me he had been through tons of expensive gaming mice and the one he had settled for was the Roccat Lua. He said it was ace.

What are your thought on the R100? Should I try it out or keep the Lua?


----------



## Woz_Ginge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Missed this shape, was really good grip, just sensor a bit off, actually thinking of rebuying this, wonder how good will be zowie fk1+ shape, now going just down to the shape thing, sensor 2nd place
> 
> P.S. (2016-05-07) So got it again, lols, just for the love of shape, a pc bang version costing 20 GBP instead of original version costing 31-32 GBP in UK
> 
> 
> 
> (Rival 100 PC Bang) . LoL, I think i'm ready to bang somebody with this bangy, i repeat, bangy version


Currys deal!


----------



## pez

Only place I can find the PC Bang version is on eBay (below). However, I'm not sure how legit it is or if there's knockoffs of this mouse? I found a translated review and it seems that the plastic is a bit thinner, but none of that weird coating. However, it's ABS, so it's going to potentially shine really quickly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/401068866022?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> Only place I can find the PC Bang version is on eBay (below). However, I'm not sure how legit it is or if there's knockoffs of this mouse? I found a translated review and it seems that the plastic is a bit thinner, but none of that weird coating. However, it's ABS, so it's going to potentially shine really quickly.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/401068866022?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true


The link you've provided is from a seller I buy off some times.

He's not bad and the stuff seems legit, so buy it. If it's fake or not up to spec, do a claim and get your money back from Paypal.


----------



## Woz_Ginge

What is the PC Bang edition? I thought it was a joke between members.


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> The link you've provided is from a seller I buy off some times.
> 
> He's not bad and the stuff seems legit, so buy it. If it's fake or not up to spec, do a claim and get your money back from Paypal.


That's good to know. Thank you for the info.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Woz_Ginge*
> 
> What is the PC Bang edition? I thought it was a joke between members.


It looks to be an edition that's sold in Eastern countries for gaming shops/etc. Not the right term, but I can't think of the correct one ATM







. Doesn't look like you get LEDs or that fancy soft touch.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> That's good to know. Thank you for the info.
> It looks to be an edition that's sold in Eastern countries for gaming shops/etc. Not the right term, but I can't think of the correct one ATM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Doesn't look like you get LEDs or that fancy soft touch.


Mainly internet cafes: lets them buy lots of mice in bulk for cheap.


----------



## Woz_Ginge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> It looks to be an edition that's sold in Eastern countries for gaming shops/etc. Not the right term, but I can't think of the correct one ATM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Doesn't look like you get LEDs or that fancy soft touch.


Ah ic thanks.

Just thought I would give people a heads up who live in the UK Currys now has the Rival 100 black for £17.99.


----------



## Woz_Ginge

So I opened up the R100. I like it. Only problem is the scroll wheel rattles when you are moving the mouse about during gaming. Even light movements make it move around.

Is this normal?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

PC Bang version doesn't seem to be quite the step down in quality I assumed it would be.

http://xtreme-hardware.com/content.php?391-SteelSeries-Rival-100-Series-Review-Good-Value-Overkill-Performance/view/4

A reviewer actually using mousetester? What the hell? That caught me off guard.

lol so digging through some of his other reviews

leetgion hellion has clown polling(can't do 1000hz stable)
ozone rado opto 3090 has INSANE jitter at even the lowest dpi setting
kinzu v3 has angle snapping and jitter

kana v2 actually looked decent. the savu not so much .


----------



## TDK5

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timecard*
> 
> The left click only gets worst with time, I'm doing an RMA with Steelseries. i got approved yesterday.


Hey!
Is it really an issue?
Left heavier than right?
Or is it meant to be that way?


----------



## Woz_Ginge

HI.

Here is the rattling issue

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ba4omat6m8fmpbc/video20160526_183148806.mp4?dl=0

Should I RMA or is this sort of stuff standard from SS?


----------



## Zwiebi

I have the normal black version, but mine doesn't rattle at all.


----------



## trism

You should RMA that, my black version does not rattle at all.


----------



## Woz_Ginge

Thanks. I'll get in touch with the shop right away.

I must say it only rattles on one half of the wheel if you see what I mean. The other half of the wheel it doesn't rattle. Still it isn't good enough.


----------



## Timecard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TDK5*
> 
> Hey!
> Is it really an issue?
> Left heavier than right?
> Or is it meant to be that way?


I just got my new mouse replacement from SS, i'll let you know how the new one feels.


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Mainly internet cafes: lets them buy lots of mice in bulk for cheap.


That's the term I was looking for







.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Woz_Ginge*
> 
> So I opened up the R100. I like it. Only problem is the scroll wheel rattles when you are moving the mouse about during gaming. Even light movements make it move around.
> 
> Is this normal?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Mainly internet cafes: lets them buy lots of mice in bulk for cheap.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> You should RMA that, my black version does not rattle at all.


This. This was a huge problem on all of my Kinzu V2s, but I'm happy to not see it in the Rival 100. I'm still having a great time with this mouse.


----------



## Timecard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TDK5*
> 
> Hey!
> Is it really an issue?
> Left heavier than right?
> Or is it meant to be that way?


I originally had a Proton Yellow with the matte finish, my new mouse that I received as part of the RMA process is the white version. Both mouse buttons upon opening feel like they use equal pressure unlike my last mouse where mouse1 felt much different than the mouse2. I haven't really gamed with it yet or put it much to use so i can't say for sure that it'll change in the near future, however out of the box the M1 and M2 feel better on this mouse compare the first one.

I can update this post after i've used it a bit.


----------



## drapos

Well, Steelseries finally decided to allow more lighting customization on this mouse. For some reason, I was expecting them to do this sooner or later, since that limitation was pretty silly and draconian to start with.

Anyway, kudos to Steelseries for improving their software on their budget offerings.

Edit: But then, I just noticed it is missing left clicks randomly. I use this mouse a couple of days per months, so I can't tell when that started. It has like small gaps where it doesn't register mouse clicks, but cursor movement keeps working fine. Changing light shifting to constant color actually fixes it :/


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drapos*
> 
> Well, Steelseries finally decided to allow more lighting customization on this mouse. For some reason, I was expecting them to do this sooner or later, since that limitation was pretty silly and draconian to start with.
> 
> Anyway, kudos to Steelseries for improving their software on their budget offerings.
> 
> But then, I just noticed it is missing left clicks randomly. I use this mouse a couple of days per months, so I can't tell when that started.


What extra lighting did they introduce? The only thing I felt missing was scroll wheel and logo LED color independencies.


----------



## drapos

You can customize color shifts and pulse now:



But it breaks clicks reading, so it is useless.


----------



## pez

Haha great....


----------



## dstrk

Hi guys i found this mouse is size between kinzu and kana v2. I have both mice but like kinzu most cuz played better on it
I need mouse that in between kinzu and kana size also my kinzu started to disfunction sometimes.. so I need a new mouse.. Im not use the kana since I played better on kinzu maybe because the weight and shape but sometimes I feels too small

Im using claw grip and my hand about 18.5cm long and 10cm wide.. and play CSGO
Is this mouse good or do I just buy another mouse? Thx
I use qck mass black btw


----------



## Zwiebi

The Rival 100 is a tiny bit bulkier (larger) than the Kana and it is also heavier. It is a better shape than the Kana so you might find it comfortable, but be prepared that it is not between the Kinzu and the Kana. It's more like between the Kana and the Sensei. I had issues with accidental right clicks on the Kana that I didn't have with the Kinzu and don't have now with the Rival 100. My hand size is pretty similar to yours (18 cm - 10 cm) and I'm very happy with the Rival (but I added extra mouse feet, changed mouse1 to Omron and made the shell bendier on mouse1 as I prefer an extremely light mouse1).


----------



## drewno

I land at this post quite late and missing some things, so: can i find exactly that sensor's datasheet (scrolling over 139 pages in case u've posted it already doesnt seem a reasonable to me)? Coulnt find it over google, or is it just the same as a3050? Also i've seen it's an office quality sensor based on a3050, but what are the reasonable drawbacks of it in case i dont care about the LOD, prefer 500 dpi over 400 which is the biggest deal for me and 3 m/s max speed is more than enough (just like how about smoothing, positive/neg accel lvl, responsivity, fps value)? Thinking about getting thisone if noone release a medium sized, light mouse with pmw3360 or even pmw3320 soon.


----------



## Zwiebi

If you can live with the high LOD and 500 DPI than it is a perfectly fine sensor. I haven't noticed any easily detectable smoothing and it doesn't have any kind of acceleration. At 500 DPI the max tracking speed I got out of it is 4.36 m/s (mostly accurate, but I have an extra set of mouse feet on mine to lower the LOD that changes the DPI somewhat). It's plenty responsive, but it might feel sluggish a bit, but there is a different reason for it, which is the shape. All my SS mice feels slower and less jumpy when compared to for example an Abyssus on the same sensitivity due to the great shape. I can up the sensitivity 10-20% and get back the same responsive feeling and get the same accuracy (ingame), but with the added benefits of higher sens (better movement, easier to look around, etc). This is not due to different sensitivities (software setting vs reality) as I measured it every time with a ruler! It's just the same feeling as when you do 160 in a great car and it feels the same as 80 in a crappy one.

Negatives:

-SS switches are heavier than Omrons.

-Tracking at higher DPI is dogcrap. I use 1500 DPI on desktop and it's at the barely tolerable level for normal use and unacceptable for any precision work. Barely better than the Kana v1.

-I haven't bothered much with trying to tapefix it to lower the LOD, but when I did it, I managed to make the sensor spin out. I used the tapefix on all my optical mice, and it's usually pretty easy to find the sweetspot between low LOD and good tracking, but with this one it's not that easy. Possibly because of the raised portion around the sensor. However I only tried for a couple of minutes as the extra set of mouse feet lowered the LOD to a reasonable level.


----------



## Woz_Ginge

Hi.

So I got a refund due to my loose mouse wheel. I decided against buying another after my brief experience of the Rival 100.

I agree with some other users descriptions of the left and right buttons as being 'mushy'. This is exactly how I would describe these buttons. I did not like them at all. There is not enough tactile feedback. I guess I just love clicky buttons. I am a claw/fingertip gripper and the size doesn't suit this type of grip. And what about the weight! It was way too heavy for me during Quake sessions. I am a flick player and I could not flick this mouse around comfortably.

So I have decided to stick with my Roccat Lua. Even though the Lua doesn't have the FW and BW buttons the mouse feels more premium to me. I think Steelseries bit off more than they could chew with this mouse by trying to position it in the same price category as the Lua but offering extra features like the FW and BW buttons. I think the quality suffers as a result.

Also, sticking with Roccat makes sense because I am a Linux user and Roccat has drivers for Linux thanks to Stefan Achatz.

Cheers.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Woz_Ginge*
> 
> Also, sticking with Roccat makes sense because I am a Linux user and Roccat has drivers for Linux thanks to Stefan Achatz.


If that is the case then you should look at their latest model the Roccat Kiro, definitely a well built mouse but it has the 3320 sensor if that's your thing, not all people like that sensor but some love it's performance within certain gaming situations.

Also the Kiro can include side buttons on either side or you can remove them easily. Customization is what this little mouse is all about....


----------



## Woz_Ginge

Hi dude.

I bought a Roccat Kone Pure Military. Loving it.


----------



## TDK5

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timecard*
> 
> I originally had a Proton Yellow with the matte finish, my new mouse that I received as part of the RMA process is the white version. Both mouse buttons upon opening feel like they use equal pressure unlike my last mouse where mouse1 felt much different than the mouse2. I haven't really gamed with it yet or put it much to use so i can't say for sure that it'll change in the near future, however out of the box the M1 and M2 feel better on this mouse compare the first one.
> 
> I can update this post after i've used it a bit.


Actually, the first Rival 100 I ordered had buttons that felt the same.
(Both, left click and right click required equal force to get pressed).
However, my left-click stopped working in 2 months later (NOTE: Stopped working = physically stopped working, it couldn't get pressed and NOT the other way round i.e not registering clicks) and I sent the mouse for replacement.
When I got the replaced mouse, it had the left click heavier (harder to press) than the right click.
So I thought, it may be a revised version, in order to prevent accidental clicks.
So I went on with using it, however, now again, within a month, the same problem has occurred, the left-click has started to feel mushy, and pretty sure is gonna die in 2-3 days.
WHAT. THE. ****.


----------



## pez

I've had good luck with mine so far. I'm almost tempted to stockpile them as its been my favorite mouse to date. What color is yours by chance?


----------



## Ubsidion

Ya i also picked up 2 more of them off of amazon. I love the Gaia green one and like the smooth surface. Just a bonus my fav color is also the cheapest.


----------



## pez

Yeah, I've thought about the white to try out the less fingerprint magnet surface







.


----------



## Timecard

I like the soft textured black material but i really liked the white versions glossy feel on this mouse.


----------



## pez

Yep, I like the Sakura Purple, Proton Yellow and the White. If I order a couple extras, I'm not quite sure what colors I'd want the most







.


----------



## Twiffle

Anyone know where I can get replacement feet for this mouse? After 2 months of use it feels like my mouse feet are already worn.. doesn't glide that well.. even on my overwatch mousepad. Although the glide is even worse on my Kana V2









Temporarily I stuck my Fk1's extra feet on top of the original ones.


----------



## ncck

You contact steelseries support for replacement feet, you may be charged


----------



## m0uz

And prepare to wait many millenia for a response


----------



## Twiffle

Mehh.. stock feet are too thin and wear out fast. I guess I could try using IE 3.0 skates or something.


----------



## Twiffle

Is there anything close to the Rival 100 shape? I literally love this shape. my pinky and ring finger love the right side. Kinda skeptical of buying Roccat kone pure military if by some chance I won't like it.







Hows Roccat Kiro? or what about kinzu V1? Lately I've started to using more of a fingertip/clawish grip where my palm barely even touches the mouse. I'd say its something like 80% fingertip and 20% claw .. although that's just a rough estimation .

Sorry for double post.


----------



## pez

Interesting, I have a few hundred gaming hours on my feet and they're still just as nice and smooth-gliding on my QCK heavy as they always have been. Some of the best gliding stock mouse feet I've come across outside of Zowie offerings and that of the XM-300 from GB.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> Is there anything close to the Rival 100 shape? I literally love this shape. my pinky and ring finger love the right side. Kinda skeptical of buying Roccat kone pure military if by some chance I won't like it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hows Roccat Kiro? or what about kinzu V1? Lately I've started to using more of a fingertip/clawish grip where my palm barely even touches the mouse. I'd say its something like 80% fingertip and 20% claw .. although that's just a rough estimation .
> 
> Sorry for double post.


It's a bit of a different shape, but the dimensions of the Zowie FK1 are very similar to this. The rear end 'hump' is placed a little further back it seems, but it may be worth a shot







.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> Interesting, I have a few hundred gaming hours on my feet and they're still just as nice and smooth-gliding on my QCK heavy as they always have been. Some of the best gliding stock mouse feet I've come across outside of Zowie offerings and that of the XM-300 from GB.
> It's a bit of a different shape, but the dimensions of the Zowie FK1 are very similar to this. The rear end 'hump' is placed a little further back it seems, but it may be worth a shot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Wonder if I should go for the Fk2 or is there even a big difference between Fk2 and FK1







since I have quite small hands 18cm


----------



## Gonzalez07

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> Wonder if I should go for the Fk2 or is there even a big difference between Fk2 and FK1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> since I have quite small hands 18cm


I have small hands too about 17cm and the fk2 cramps my hand.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gonzalez07*
> 
> I have small hands too about 17cm and the fk2 cramps my hand.


I already have FK1 but it feels a bit too bulky... especially after using Rival 100 for so long.


----------



## pez

Interesting, I found the FK2 too small, but have not had a chance to try the FK1. However, I have a somewhat weird grip for the Rival 100. That hump is placed perfectly for its size/shape/weight for me.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> Interesting, I found the FK2 too small, but have not had a chance to try the FK1. However, I have a somewhat weird grip for the Rival 100. That hump is placed perfectly for its size/shape/weight for me.


I suppose it depends how you grip the mouse. I have my arm and lower palm resting on the mousepad and mostly move the mouse with my wrist and finger tips where I have hardly any contact on the mouse with my palm.


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> I suppose it depends how you grip the mouse. I have my arm and lower palm resting on the mousepad and mostly move the mouse with my wrist and finger tips where I have hardly any contact on the mouse with my palm.


Well I have larger hands as well. Fingertip to base, my hand is 21cm and width-wise, I've got 12cm. A mouse like the Rival fits under the padding of my pinky and ring finger and doesn't really fill out the rest of my hand. If I use a small mouse, the rear has to be higher for me to hold it comfortable, whereass something like a Rival 300 or the EC1-A fits into my hand rather nice. This is with most of my forearm and my palm resting on my mouse pad (QCK heavy).


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> Well I have larger hands as well. Fingertip to base, my hand is 21cm and width-wise, I've got 12cm. A mouse like the Rival fits under the padding of my pinky and ring finger and doesn't really fill out the rest of my hand. If I use a small mouse, the rear has to be higher for me to hold it comfortable, whereass something like a Rival 300 or the EC1-A fits into my hand rather nice. This is with most of my forearm and my palm resting on my mouse pad (QCK heavy).


Wish I had hands around that size.. but my hands are quite small to medium at 18cm and 9-9,5cm.. however I still kinda fingertip Rival 100. Placed an order on Roccat Kone Pure Military and see if it's even better fit, if not then I'll just add MS 3.0 hyperglide mouse feet on my Rival 100.


----------



## pez

Is it just the feet that are the issue for you?

People say the HG gaming feet are comparable to the Hyperglides. For the price, it may be worth a shot:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hotline-Games-Steelseries-Rival-100-Mouse-Feet-2014-Edition-/121905327707


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> Is it just the feet that are the issue for you?
> 
> People say the HG gaming feet are comparable to the Hyperglides. For the price, it may be worth a shot:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hotline-Games-Steelseries-Rival-100-Mouse-Feet-2014-Edition-/121905327707


Yeah just the feet. Oh my... thank you very much! This was exactly what I was looking for. Although I aleady have MS 3.0 hyperglide feet coming.. but these feet seem really cheap so I'll just buy em as well.


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> Yeah just the feet. Oh my... thank you very much! This was exactly what I was looking for. Although I aleady have MS 3.0 hyperglide feet coming.. but these feet seem really cheap so I'll just buy em as well.












People seem to love them for the DeathAdder, G502 and G900. I have some other feet from Takasta, and while they're not Hyperglides (the Hotline Gaming feet are marketed to target those) they are very nice.


----------



## Ufasas

This rival100 bang, it's not beating g100s, g100s still a better mouse i think, with a snapier sensor. Mostly i enjoyed 500 dpi with rival 100 bang in csgo. And still too many deaths.. I prefer g502 to this mouse


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> This rival100 bang, it's not beating g100s, g100s still a better mouse i think, with a snapier sensor. Mostly i enjoyed 500 dpi with rival 100 bang in csgo. And still too many deaths.. I prefer g502 to this mouse


Don't know if G100s is snappier or not.. but I can aim better with Rival 100.. and it doesn't rub against my palm like G100s does. Both are great mice. Not a big fan of G502 though. Mainly due to it's weight and if I remember correctly when I had it couple months ago.. there seems to be not much room for your fingers on the right side.. making the mouse seem really flat.


----------



## Zeper

I performed decent with it, also its so easy to swipe with this mouse becuase of the narrow shape. Perfect for claw grips or finger tip.


----------



## yuuka

Is it true you cannot set this mouse to 800 CPI? If so, why? This is off putting to me.


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yuuka*
> 
> Is it true you cannot set this mouse to 800 CPI? If so, why? This is off putting to me.


True. Only 500 or 1000. The sensor doesn't natively support 800 or even 750. If you could do it, it would be interpolated from 1000.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yuuka*
> 
> Is it true you cannot set this mouse to 800 CPI? If so, why? This is off putting to me.


Because it uses A3050 sensor. It physically cannot do 800 (can do 750 iirc).


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Because it uses A3050 sensor. It physically cannot do 800 (can do 750 iirc).


Logitech's old 3055 could do 750 and the AM010 can do 750 but the 3050/59 can only do 500, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750 and 2000 natively.

Edit: What you could do with the Rival 100 is set it to 1000 and then use povohat's driver to set it to 800 by using a 'Post Scale' value of 0.8


----------



## c0dy

IIRC povohat isn't signed. So could be a no for some people.

Use interaccel instead. No testmode needed.

http://mouseaccel.blogspot.com/2015/12/new-method-for-mouse-acceleration.html


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> IIRC povohat isn't signed. So could be a no for some people.
> 
> Use interaccel instead. No testmode needed.
> 
> http://mouseaccel.blogspot.com/2015/12/new-method-for-mouse-acceleration.html


Interaccel is a program made by Povohat which utilizes the Interception library made by Francisco Lopes, I'm relatively sure that's what he was talking about anyway.


----------



## yuuka

How do I update the firmware on this mouse? Is there no firmware update tool anymore?


----------



## TristanL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yuuka*
> 
> How do I update the firmware on this mouse? Is there no firmware update tool anymore?


normally over the SteelSeries Engine


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

SNDS 3059 ss = am010 or not? Who is better in corners?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Well I assume that both sensor casings have beveled corners.


----------



## Ufasas

I prolly will still keep this 100 bang version mouse for collection, due to sexy sensei like shape, i can't even.. need more mice with shape like this and optical sensor, r100 is good when you get bored shooting good with better sensor and want shoot a bit worse, and make a game a bit more challenging, just for experimenting lol (not speaking much about great everyday use for non-gaming stuff, clicky buttons are superawesome and responsive as hell)


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

I want see g100s inside my rival 100. 3059 it's not am010. It's slowpoke and liquid sensor


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

Vanila r100 is more beutifull than pc bang


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AloneInTheDuck*
> 
> Vanila r100 is more beutifull than pc bang


PC Bang is cheaper without gimmicky LEDs


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> PC Bang is cheaper without gimmicky LEDs


I already have cheaper an without LEDs mouse - g100s. And I think LEDs its an important part of r100 design


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AloneInTheDuck*
> 
> I already have cheaper an without LEDs mouse - g100s. And I think LEDs its an important part of r100 design


If you prioritise LEDs then who am I to judge?


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> If you prioritise LEDs then who am I to judge?


I just try to say r100 with leds is more beautiful than pc bang.


----------



## pez

Yeah, I'll probably always keep my Rival 100. I'd say the G Pro from Logi is a good alternative so long as you don't rely on the rear width of this mouse for your grip. If so, I think you'd be disappointed. For me, it was the height of the 'hump' that rests under my hand.


----------



## neotarkilmar

Rival 100 or Abyssus v2?

18cm x 9cm hands, fingertip grip but fingers in claw shape, palm never touch the back of the mouse. Logitech g9x "naked" for the last 4-5years.


----------



## rss013

Coming from a G400 i finally went for the Rival 100 and after using it for 3-4 months the left click became very stiff and i also had the feeling it was alot LESS precise than my G400 sensor-wise. I'm not going to use it anymore and I'm using a G402 now for a few weeks wich is superior compared to the rival imo.


----------



## sjzorilla

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neotarkilmar*
> 
> Rival 100 or Abyssus v2?
> 
> 18cm x 9cm hands, fingertip grip but fingers in claw shape, palm never touch the back of the mouse. Logitech g9x "naked" for the last 4-5years.


Always preferred rival over it, the sensor in the rival has a higher max tracking speed than the Abyssus, but the build quality mon the abyssus seems to be more superior, and the shape is also better imo. Both sensors are sub par but i do feel as if the rival has a slightly better one.

Side buttons, Sensor and Software= Rival 100
Shape, Build Quality= Abyssus

(also, in my area, the rival is almost $20 cheaper)


----------



## pez

Although not a Sensei/Rival 100 shape, I'd say the G Pro from Logi is a good consideration. My Rival 100 is still holding up really well, but it's M1 and M2 clicks are definitely the weak links, IMO. At 500 DPI I never had an issue with the sensor in CS:GO or OW.


----------



## neotarkilmar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sjzorilla*
> 
> Always preferred rival over it, the sensor in the rival has a higher max tracking speed than the Abyssus, but the build quality mon the abyssus seems to be more superior, and the shape is also better imo. Both sensors are sub par but i do feel as if the rival has a slightly better one.
> 
> Side buttons, Sensor and Software= Rival 100
> Shape, Build Quality= Abyssus
> 
> (also, in my area, the rival is almost $20 cheaper)


In my area the two are the same price, the only cheap mouse is the g302, half the price of the rival 100 and abyssus v2.

I never use side buttons. Im worried about rival 100 LoD, glides and m1.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> Although not a Sensei/Rival 100 shape, I'd say the G Pro from Logi is a good consideration. My Rival 100 is still holding up really well, but it's M1 and M2 clicks are definitely the weak links, IMO. At 500 DPI I never had an issue with the sensor in CS:GO or OW.


The G pro is not available in my country atm, only the 100G at the same price of the g302.


----------



## sjzorilla

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neotarkilmar*
> 
> In my area the two are the same price, the only cheap mouse is the g302, half the price of the rival 100 and abyssus v2.


ugh, hate that shape yuckkkk


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neotarkilmar*
> 
> In my area the two are the same price, the only cheap mouse is the g302, half the price of the rival 100 and abyssus v2.
> 
> I never use side buttons. Im worried about rival 100 LoD, glides and m1.
> The G pro is not available in my country atm, only the 100G at the same price of the g302.


Ah, I see.


----------



## sjzorilla

go abyssus then


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neotarkilmar*
> 
> Rival 100 or Abyssus v2?
> 
> 18cm x 9cm hands, fingertip grip but fingers in claw shape, palm never touch the back of the mouse. Logitech g9x "naked" for the last 4-5years.


g100s or somethink on am010. Newer buy rival if you want good sensor


----------



## Ufasas

Hahah, pc bang outlook more solid to me, no flash flash bling bling ass LEDs,
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AloneInTheDuck*
> 
> g100s or somethink on am010. Newer buy rival if you want good sensor


^ this, i just got abyssus v2 yesterday, got g402 with am010 in the drawer, and I'd rank these mice like this by shape + sensor. Aby2 defo better than r100, if you can win it in auction like i did, (got for 29, instead of 49) go for it, though it's 3329 optical sensor, dunno was it better than previous 3888 or not, cause i gave it away to friend, takes time to get used to it for the 2nd time i got this. Otherwise cheapish 17-25 for g100-402 (better shapes than 302/303/502)

1. Logi G402 (prolly g100 too) / Abyssus v2

2. Rival 100


----------



## Tyson86-88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Hahah, pc bang outlook more solid to me, no flash flash bling bling ass LEDs,
> ^ this, i just got abyssus v2 yesterday, got g402 with am010 in the drawer, and I'd rank these mice like this by shape + sensor. Aby2 defo better than r100, if you can win it in auction like i did, (got for 29, instead of 49) go for it, though it's 3329 optical sensor, dunno was it better than previous 3888 or not, cause i gave it away to friend, takes time to get used to it for the 2nd time i got this. Otherwise cheapish 17-25 for g100-402 (better shapes than 302/303/502)
> 
> 1. Logi G402 (prolly g100 too) / Abyssus v2
> 
> 2. Rival 100


What about rapoo v300?


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tyson86-88*
> 
> What about rapoo v300?


Due to shape i would put it in the end of the list, due to sensor 2nd and r100 3rd : p also if i remember well it doesn't require tapefix on rapoo, returned it, too awkward grip on left/right, aiming feels way off due to that, felt better with Kana v2 with same sensor!!! Drawing similarities to g303 awkwardness


----------



## neotarkilmar

Thanks to all for the help.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Hahah, pc bang outlook more solid to me, no flash flash bling bling ass LEDs,
> ^ this, i just got abyssus v2 yesterday, got g402 with am010 in the drawer, and I'd rank these mice like this by shape + sensor. Aby2 defo better than r100, if you can win it in auction like i did, (got for 29, instead of 49) go for it, though it's 3329 optical sensor, dunno was it better than previous 3888 or not, cause i gave it away to friend, takes time to get used to it for the 2nd time i got this. Otherwise cheapish 17-25 for g100-402 (better shapes than 302/303/502)
> 
> 1. Logi G402 (prolly g100 too) / Abyssus v2
> 
> 2. Rival 100


ok Thanks.

Abyssus v2 and new pad Corsair mm300.


----------



## Ufasas

hmm tested aby more in quake 3 (like 1,5 hour), only rubber sides could have stayed plastic, if hands sweating like mine, in the end of the match it becomes a bit slippery, not horrible, but different


----------



## pez

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Razer's rubber side grips. Was really hoping they would change it up with the DA:E this time around.


----------



## neotarkilmar

I played like 2-3hr last night, Overwatch, and loved the rubber sides. I think texture plastic like the rival 100 is worse with sweaty hands than rubber.


----------



## Ufasas

Well after 2 days i am falling in love with aby2, wouldn't grab r100 for hardcore play, once i tried aby2., would even grab cheapish and buggy xornet 2


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neotarkilmar*
> 
> I played like 2-3hr last night, Overwatch, and loved the rubber sides. I think texture plastic like the rival 100 is worse with sweaty hands than rubber.


Yeah, I don't have sweaty hands, but the oils eventually just kinda make the rubber sides on the DA slick enough that it slides out under the weight. I don't deathgrip my mice, so it just finds a way to be annoying. Even the first gen Rival 300 rubber was better than the DA rubber. Needless to say, I wish they'd do a 'Black Edition' again.


----------



## 86MhzPentium

Just got this mouse, and if im not wrong, at 500 dpi this sensor is flawless.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *86MhzPentium*
> 
> Just got this mouse, and if im not wrong, at 500 dpi this sensor is flawless.


Rival 100 works pretty well at 500 DPI . Just some people like to completely **** on the sensor. It's all about 3360-3366 nowadays. I personally like the feel of 3050 and 3090 sensors more than 3310 or 336x .


----------



## 86MhzPentium

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> Rival 100 works pretty well at 500 DPI . Just some people like to completely **** on the sensor. It's all about 3360-3366 nowadays. I personally like the feel of 3050 and 3090 sensors more than 3310 or 336x .


Many people need to start forgetting about the sensors but more about the implementation, The xornet II supposedly has a better sensor, but it doesn't, it's poorly implemented. My old Alcor had one of the so called "flawless" sensors, and it had 400 dpi interpolated and lots of negative accel, my old DA also had some jitter i think, now on the other hand my Rival 100 at 500 dpi has none of this things, it behaves almost the same if not really the same has the AM010 but with higher Malfunction Speed which makes it perfect.

If you play any game, and specially CS, and you use low DPI, the Rival 100 at 500 dpi is as good as it gets, it's an absolutely perfect sensor at that DPI.

We should start ignoring sensors, but start caring more about its implementation.


----------



## MrKoala

+1

I have two mouses (X100 and CW100) from Fuhlen which is also the company that makes the Rival 100. The two are almost identical but come with different illumination lights (red vs infrared) and likely slightly different firmware. The early model would jitter badly and occasionally go wild on dark or glossy surfaces. The later model is stable and predictable on any surface I've thrown at it.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> Rival 100 works pretty well at 500 DPI . Just some people like to completely **** on the sensor. It's all about 3360-3366 nowadays. I personally like the feel of 3050 and 3090 sensors more than 3310 or 336x .


Well to me it felt as if the Rival 100 had prediction, that's the only way I can describe it. Something felt "off".

Though I do still think the Rival 100 is the best shape I've ever held, best blend between a Kana and Sensei.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Well to me it felt as if the Rival 100 had prediction, that's the only way I can describe it. Something felt "off".
> 
> Though I do still think the Rival 100 is the best shape I've ever held, best blend between a Kana and Sensei.


Yeah I suppose there's some of it, but it does not hinder performance in anyway though from my own experience with it. The shape indeed is really really good. Wonder if we gonna see any Kinzu size/shape mice anytime soon. To me it feels like there isn't proper or small enough fingertip mice out there.


----------



## pez

I feel just as accurate with my Rival 100 as I do with my G403. Shape differences aside, I haven't used a 'terrible' and ill-performing sensor since the Kinzu V2. There's a reason the 'Kinzu-Adder' is a thing







.


----------



## trism

I still use the Rival 100. For me, there just isn't anything better currently available. Even though I tend to not speculate about 'feel' nowadays, I don't notice any prediction while using it. The sensor does not hinder my ability in any way.

Would I buy a Rival 100 with a technically better sensor? In a heartbeat.


----------



## pez

I think I would improve the M1 and M2 of it. They're a bit 'numb' feeling. It's still a decent click, but something like a Logitech mouse will put it to shame. Shame because M4 and M5 are great.


----------



## Leopardi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pez*
> 
> I think I would improve the M1 and M2 of it. They're a bit 'numb' feeling. It's still a decent click, but something like a Logitech mouse will put it to shame. Shame because M4 and M5 are great.


Much better than G Pro at least, you can rest your finger on both M1 and M2.


----------



## 86MhzPentium

The buttons on the Rival 100 are decent, but very different, they're more quiet and relaxing per say, i actually like them a lot.

And i can't understand why some people **** talk about its sensor, it's absolutely perfect at 500 dpi, unlike many 3090 mice.


----------



## Maximillion

I'd have to agree the R100 shape is great, love the grip material as well (much better than the usual "rubbery" grips on the DA for example).

Something is definitely "weird" about the sensor tho, especially bouncing back to it from a 3360. Still what I'd consider usable. It does feel heavy for its size tho.


----------



## 86MhzPentium

Here i am, loving my Rival 100 and having to return it because my middle button is double clicking, can be fixed through software, but i have my rights. EUROPE FTW.


----------



## Razhad

i dont know why the hate on this mouse, been using it for almost 6 months.
still got my one taps & awp kill using this one.

sure it's not the best sensor at market but the tuning is just so good unlike other with the same sensor.
@500 dpi this mouse is a killer budget (before g102 come out ofc), and it's not like i use high dpi anyway, so there's that for me.
for me i prefer better tuning rather than good sensor with bad tuning. ofc better sensor is better, but if the tuning is bad it just feels off..

just my 2 cent and sorry for my bad english since i'm not a native english speaker.


----------



## c0dy

I'd probably use it too, because of the shape. But the clicks just felt so bad compared to the G303 or even my KPM.

Maybe I just had bad luck and received a faulty one.

Wish I could properly frankenmouse this one


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> I'd probably use it too, because of the shape. But the clicks just felt so bad compared to the G303 or even my KPM.
> 
> Maybe I just had bad luck and received a faulty one.
> 
> Wish I could properly frankenmouse this one


Well the clicks ain't as bad as on Kinzu V3. My Rival 100 clicks seem to be lighter and easier to press than my KPM... with KPM the buttons feel more like huanos than omrons. Although I don't remember how the clicks felt on 1st day when I got my Rival 100. I suppose it all comes down to what you prefer or are used to.

In my case if clicks are too light with hair trigger I will keep accidentally clicking... that's why I kinda prefer clicks to require a bit of force to press.. although the amount of force that was required for my Kinzu V3 was just horrible and felt like the button would get stuck onto the switch for a little.


----------



## MrKoala

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> I'd probably use it too, because of the shape. But the clicks just felt so bad compared to the G303 or even my KPM.
> 
> Maybe I just had bad luck and received a faulty one.
> 
> Wish I could properly frankenmouse this one


What's wrong with the clicks on the one you tested?


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> My Rival 100 clicks seem to be lighter and easier to press than my KPM...


Interesting. Maybe I really had a faulty one :/ Or you had a weird KPM. Dunno.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrKoala*
> 
> What's wrong with the clicks on the one you tested?


It almost felt like the mouse shell didn't really match where the switches were. Or the top shell wasn't tight enough so it took more pressure to actuate the switch. Or I had to press it at the very front so it would be a little easier.

If you have a KPM you can probably get a feel for what it was like.
If I try to press it somewhere around this area it's pretty close to what the Rival 100 clicks were for me.


----------



## badben25

I know exactly what you mean, and that's actually a known problem with the Rival 100. I helped someone go through 3-4 returns before getting a unit that clicked nice enough and felt more 'normal'. He asked the store to test the buttons by touch before sending any units and mentioned he doesn't mind an open box for this sake, but the store wasn't willing to do so, leading to multiple returns. Even SS support mentioned that they acknowledge this and I've seen them offer support quietly. From what I've seen this seems to be more of an issue on the glossy/colored ones compared to the regular black rubberised one, but that's just my observation.

Even on the good units the click feeling isn't much better to be honest and many other mice do better, but atleast it's not a bother when playing.


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leopardi*
> 
> Much better than G Pro at least, you can rest your finger on both M1 and M2.


Yeah, that's preference, because I don't rest my hand on a mouse that way. Even in fingertip grip mode on the G Pro I don't accidentally click. I do understand liking a heavy click, but I don't necessarily and they are still heavier than that of the Sensei, Kinzu V2, etc. before it.


----------



## 86MhzPentium

My middle mouse button stopped all of sudden double clicking and now is working just fine, probably was a software issue.


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *86MhzPentium*
> 
> My middle mouse button stopped all of sudden double clicking and now is working just fine, probably was a software issue.


All Rival models used to have an issue where if the LEDs are on then there are button misclicks. For some it was fixed by not using any lighting patterns, and using single color static lighting instead. Others had to switch off lighting completely to fix it. I do not know if this issue still exists.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

>bought a rival 100 today

go out to car, get in, decide i want to make sure it's not a bad unit. open it up. everything seems alright.

then i click the left mouse button. *crunch*

Left mouse switch died after one click.

So I go to exchange it. I have the clerk open the next one. This time....the mouse had no switch feedback at all. To add to it the scroll wheel moved back and fourth.

Yeahhhhhh no thanks.


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

My rival 100 bild guality is high.
But mouse still bad.


----------



## pez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> >bought a rival 100 today
> 
> go out to car, get in, decide i want to make sure it's not a bad unit. open it up. everything seems alright.
> 
> then i click the left mouse button. *crunch*
> 
> Left mouse switch died after one click.
> 
> So I go to exchange it. I have the clerk open the next one. This time....the mouse had no switch feedback at all. To add to it the scroll wheel moved back and fourth.
> 
> Yeahhhhhh no thanks.


Most likely both mice from the same bad batch. If you get a good one, it's a super solid mouse. Outside of it being measurably inaccurate at 1000DPI or higher, I don't have much to complain about for this mouse.


----------



## slb4712

I can get Rival 95 ($24), which is cheaper version of Rival 100 ($37) without LED and with a bit different matherial. Is it good buy? I'd like to play CS:GO mostly with low-sens (500 @ 1000 Hz, as far as described in the Ino's review).
I have no G102 avaliable in my country.


----------



## pez

I always say this mouse is worth a shot for anyone who likes the shape. I played plenty of CS:GO and OW with the mouse @ 500 DPI/1000hz with no issues.


----------



## Leopardi

Do the IME 3.0 hyperglides fit this mouse? The 0.8mm thickness seems good on those.


----------



## Zwiebi

I put my 3.0 feet on top of the original to lower the liftoff distance, but yes there is enough room for them. On the front the original feet extends towards the sides an extra 0.5-1 mm, because they are narrower (you can't push the 3.0 feet 100% into the corner), but this doesn't make any difference.


----------



## Leopardi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zwiebi*
> 
> I put my 3.0 feet on top of the original to lower the liftoff distance, but yes there is enough room for them. On the front the original feet extends towards the sides an extra 0.5-1 mm, because they are narrower (you can't push the 3.0 feet 100% into the corner), but this doesn't make any difference.


Have you tried a goliathus control style pad with them? It can be picky when messing with the LOD.


----------



## Zwiebi

I tested it for you with my old (all black, small logo) Goliathus Control, and it works without any issues. Low speed, high speed, tiny movements, all fine. Except for the fact that at higher DPI (1600) the sensor quality is on the very bottom of the acceptable level, but this is true on any mousepad and without the extra feet.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zwiebi*
> 
> I tested it for you with my old (all black, small logo) Goliathus Control, and it works without any issues. Low speed, high speed, tiny movements, all fine. Except for the fact that at higher DPI (1600) the sensor quality is on the very bottom of the acceptable level, but this is true on any mousepad and without the extra feet.


I'm not sure how much thicker hotline games feet are, but I used those on my Rival 100. Also have tested it on many different pads without any issues @500DPI/1000hz. I personally wouldn't recommend going over 1000DPI with this mouse as it gets very jittery.

Shape is great! especially for people who like to bend their pinky towards their palm or the butt of the mouse.


----------



## fourthavenue

I bought Rival 100 about 2 months ago. I saw someone in this forum said Rival100's sensor should be free of any smoothing so I went curious and bought it.
It turned out to be an OK mouse. I decide to leave a review here.

The shape is good, not my ideal shape, but still good, and should be good for many ambidextrous mice lovers.
(In recent months, I mainly use G403 and I feel I can adjust to G403 shape quite well. G403 shape feels much better than DA and EC shape to me. They are all "kidney shape" mice but the tiny difference in the size and the hump makes them feel very different in hand.
My ideal mouse shape is Zowie AM, but zowie no longer make/upgrade their AM line anymore.)
Rival 100 is similar to Kana. I believe people here are already very familiar with Kana shape so I don't need to describe its shape.

The sides(thumb grip) are hard plastic with dots. It feels cheap. Other users here say this effectively prevents slippery grip. Those coated/glossy surfaces on other mice always cause either dry hands or sweaty hands slippery on them. It seemed no mouse could satisfy all users. But this plastic-dot grip seems to have solved the problem. I rarely had slippery grip problem with any mouse (probably IO 1.1 was the only one). I'm ok with most mice. So my only concern to this thumb grip is it feels cheap.

The sensor is mediocre, it is only usable at 500DPI. It skips pixels if set to 1000dpi or higher.
But in 500dpi it's pretty good. Some people said they can feel some angle snapping with this mouse. But I do not feel any, and when drawing circles or fast swipes in Windows Paint, it performs the same as 3366 mice. I don't know how those people got to the conclusion it had angle-snapping.
If you feel it is smoothed/floaty. It is normal because that is a vague and subjective feeling, no one can really prove you right or wrong. But angle-snapping is something that can be visualized and compared. Don't say it has angle-snapping just because you don't aim as well as when you were using 3366. Your aim can be affected/decided by many factors.

The lift-off-distance of my copy is 2mm or less. Some people alerted it has very high LOD which is almost intolerable. Maybe there are individual difference among copies? Or maybe SS modified it a little in later productions?
Anyway, my copy has an LOD even slightly lower than G40*2*. I can get used to it without much difficulty. Back in the old days people had been using MX518 G400 with insanely high LOD without complaining. Rival 100 should not be anything intolerable.

The sensor placement is very low. I don't know why SS made it this way. Sensor placement will surely affect the feel of tracking. I can get used to it but perhaps not everyone will like it.

The buttons are somewhere between Logitech and zowie. It's a little bit stiffer than Logitech. Logitech's current G series have very crispy and tactile clicks and require very little force to be pressed. Some people say Logitech is hair-trigger and dislike it. But to me, Logitech buttons are perfect, zowie buttons are intolerable. I can still adjust to rival 100 buttons so I think it's good enough.
The click latency compared to logitech is very noticeable when doing flick shots. But over time I get used to it and it doesn't hinder my play. Slight click latency might not be a fault of the electronic design of the mouse. It could be just mechanical. Your finger needs a process to have a button completely pressed. If the button requires you to apply more force or travel longer, it certainly takes more time to get pressed.
This latency is also very noticeable on zowie mice. Since people feel OK with zowie mice, Rival 100 should be within acceptable range.
Btw, the A-B mice collision test that are widely used in this forum is not accurate at all. Imagine you collide a zowie mouse with a logitech. The zowie buttons will not be pressed until the logitech button is completely pressed, because zowie is stiffer or more resilient. The result is certainly not accurate and can't reflect the actual latency electronic wise.

The mouse cable is quite soft. It's almost as good as zowie cables. Pretty good for an entry-level mouse. For many times companies intentionally use inferior material/designs on less-expensive products just to disgust you and force you to buy expensive models.

I also notice some people say the feet being too thin that the plastic bottom scratches mouse pad and causes much friction. On my copy, the feet are normal. They are not thin, and they have rounded edge. It's probably SS improved this in later batches.
My mouse pad is QCK+. The friction when using Rival100 is lower than G403. It could be the shape of the feet, or it could be the feet materials are different. The friction can also differ a lot on different surfaces. So I can't just say Rival100's feet are better than G403's.

The scroll wheel is normal. I don't use scroll wheel in games so I'm not picky. As long as it can precisely scroll in Windows applications, I'm ok with it. Talking about durability, I used this mouse for only 2 weeks so I can't tell.

I had been using this mouse for 2 weeks, mainly playing Overwatch.(500dpi. 1000hz. 7.7 in-game sens. QcK+) It did take me some time to get used to it, but after that it's all good. It does not hinder my performance. I switched back to G403 after the 2 weeks, because on G403 I can perform the same and G403 feels more comfortable.

Summary
If you are ok with 500dpi and seeking an ambidextrous shape, and this mouse happen to be on sale, then it's really worth a try. Otherwise, stick to whatever you believe is more advanced and better made.


----------



## Harahyuna

Can the LEDs be turned off without installing the software?


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Harahyuna*
> 
> Can the LEDs be turned off without installing the software?


Nope.


----------



## Harahyuna

Can the LEDs be turned off without installing the software?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badben25*
> 
> Nope.


Is it possible to install the software, turn off LED once and close the program completely? Will the LED profile be saved without the software running? Thanks


----------



## badben25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Harahyuna*
> 
> Can the LEDs be turned off without installing the software?
> Is it possible to install the software, turn off LED once and close the program completely? Will the LED profile be saved without the software running? Thanks


Yes, you can uninstall the software after configuring the mouse. The last used settings in the software are remembered on the mouse.


----------



## RealSteelH6

Just some pictures of a Rival 100


----------



## Soo8

I can't find this info anywhere, what is the width of the scroll wheel? Is it 7mm like on the sensei and kana or is it 6mm or less?


----------



## S.M.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> I can't find this info anywhere, what is the width of the scroll wheel? Is it 7mm like on the sensei and kana or is it 6mm or less?


A bit more than 7mm, or 7mm exactly. I can't measure it accurately.


----------



## Zwiebi

I could only measure it from the outside, but it was 7.5 mm there.

Rival 100 and 110: 7.5 mm from outside.
Sensei 310: around 7 mm measured at the base (axle).
Kana v1: 7.25 mm from outside.
Kinzu v2 Pro: 6 mm at the outside rubber part, 7 mm at the axle.


----------



## Soo8

Thanks guys. Looks like it won't fit in the DM3mini then.


----------



## AloneInTheDuck

I put am010 lens in my r100. And it feels really snappier. LOD 1.5 CD, dpi is same (505 on original lense and 510 on am010 lense) on black cloth pad, but more jitter at all DPI and higer LOD on hard pads


----------

