# * * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan Data..*



## doyll

Got tired of posting instructions and guides over and over and over, so decided to start a thread for them.

Please do not post unnecessarily as it will make it harder for others to find what they are looking for.

This thread is not for opinions of the data or tutorials.

If you have questions start a thread to discuss them.

*Topic List & Post #:*
02:  *How to monitor air temperature different places inside of case*:

03:

04: *PWM Fans Have Their Own Custom Independent PWM to RPM Curves !!*

. . . *Controlling case fans with PWM signal from motherboard CPU and / or GPU fan header.*

. . . *Normal PWM Splitter with PSU Power & Auxiliary RPM Plugs*

. . . *How to Monitor RPM of Fans on Splitters & Hubs*

05: *How airflow works
. . . Setting up a case for optimum cooling*

06: *Cooler Size and Clearance Comparison*

07: *Cooler Cooling Comparison on 117-345watt CPU size heat source*

09: *Downflow / Pancake Cooler Fan Orientation for Better Cooling*

10: *How to Apply Thermal-paste*

. . . *Concave and Convex Cooler Base on Different CPU IHS Surface Shapes*

. . . *Direct Metal to Metal, No TIM Layer In-between!*

. . . *CPU Chip Size Under IHS*

11. *P-Q Curve*

. . . *How Airflow and Static Pressure Specifications relate to real world use*

. . . *Actual Airflow Versus Peak CFM & Static Pressure.*

13. *TIM (Thermal Interface Material), How Good Should We Go?*

15. *Case Bottom Spacing Effect on Airflow to Bottom Fans*

. . . *Grill & Filter Effect on Airflow & Noise level*

. . . *Grill & Filter Effect on Airflow & Noise level*

16. *PWM control with PSU power to PWM fan and PWM adapter with 12v power from PSU*

. . . *PWM Header & Plug Pinout*

17. *How to Make Air Ducts*

19. *Phillips vs PosiDriv Screws & Screwdrivers* *Don't confuse them!!*

21: *How Intake & Exhaust Fans Close to Each Other Can Cause Airflow Loop*

23: *120mm to 140mm mounting adapter for 140mm fans with 120mm mounts*

25: *Thermalright Bolt Through Mounting Kits for thick base coolers*

27: *Noctua NF-A14 & NF-A15 series fans compared to Thermalright TY-140 series fans*

29: *How to Figure Out What CPU and RAM Clearances Are*

31: *Thermalright TY-14x fan series*

33: *Vibration Dampeners & Mounts*

35: *PH-TC14PE vs Nepwin 280 w/ stock and hi-performance fans by our own airisom2*

36: *Squaring TY-14x fans*

37: *Making PH-TC14PE Fan Mounting Clips for TY-140 series fans ]*
. . . *Mounting TY-140 series fans on PH-TC14PE*

40: *GPU PWM to Normal PWM Splitter with PSU Power & Auxiliary RPM Plug*

41: *Fan Vibration Dampening Using Grommets like used for Electrical Work*

43: *Fan Bearing Types; Ball-Bearing Versus Sleeve Bearing and It's Fluid Dynamic Variants*

45: *Phanteks Case Grill & Panel Clip Operation*

48; *Fractal Design Define cases modified to 140mm fans, bottom & back grills removed*

63: *Phanteks Enthoo Luxe and Pro Bottom Filter Modification so it is One Long Filter That Slides Out the Front*

65: *Phanteks PWM Fan Hub Review*

78: *AIO (Open Loop) & CLC Pump Specifications*

80: *Who Made Your AIO / CLC?*

83: *How Heatpipes Work*

91: *AIO (Open Loop) & CLC Pump & Radiator Specificatons w/ EK-D5 for Comparison*

94: *Enthoo Luxe Bottom Filter Mod to One Filter Out Front for Cleaning*


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## doyll

*How to monitor air temperature different places inside of case:*

A cheap indoor/outdoor thermometer with a piece of insulated wire and a plastic clothspin works great.
Made up with floral wire and tape. We don't want anything to short out with metal.










Clip and position sensor where I want to check the temp. Make it easy to see what the air temp going into components actually is relative to room temp.








Optimum cooling is when air temps going into coolers only being 2-3c warmer than room.. 5c or less is good.


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## doyll

reserved


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## doyll

*PWM Fan Independent Speed Curve*
PWM fan rpm is not a fixed ratio or percentage of PWM signal. The PWM signal to rpm is part of the programming in PWM circuitry built into each PWM fan.
Here are some examples. Black graph line (top line in chart) is fan rpm; PWM % is shown across bottom of chart. Notice how all of these fans are flat-lining at idle at different minimum fan RPM. PWM% signals below this minimum fan RPM have no effect on fan. Also notice how the PWM% to rpm is not a the same progression for each fan .. it is not a linear progression, but is instead a custom progression that is programmed into each fan's internal PWM circuit.








       









All graphs are from Thermalbench.com fan tests and reviews.

*Normal PWM Splitter with PSU Power & Auxiliary RPM Plugs*


*How to Monitor RPM of Fans on Splitters & Hubs*


*Controlling case fans with PWM signal from motherboard CPU fan header and GPU fan header.*

*There are some limitations:*

Obviously motherboard and GPU must have PWM
Obviously fans must be PWM
Motherboard can only support 8-9 fans (PWM signal strength gets too weak)
No idea how many fans GPU can support.
*Setting up motherboard PWM control of PWM case fans:*

Use a PWM splitter with molex/sata connector. Gelid and Swiftech are my preferred. I do not use Akasa PWM splitters because their wire temination into connectors is very poorly designed. Look at one and you will notice all wire distribution is at the connector .. all flex and load is at connector .. while ones like Gelid have cable distribution away form the connectors.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=17923
http://www.swiftech.com/8-waypwmsplitter.aspx
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Phobya-8x-4-Pin-Splitter-PWM/dp/B00OD7MO6E
http://silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=526&area=en
Plug PWM splitter to motherboard CPU fan header and PSU
Use CPU cooler fan as "master" fan. This is the fan that sends rpm signal to motherboard PWM header.
Additional CPU cooler fans and case fans will ramp u and down with CPU fan.
Can use a second PWM splitter on 3-way & 4-way PWM splitter.
Setup fan speed curve with motherboard bios or software. Gigabyte has EasyTune 6 and Asus has SmartFan. I set minimum at 30% fan @ 30c and maximum at 100% @ 65c. Than watch temps and see if you want more or less rpm to keep temperature and noise where you want them. My sig rig idles 24-29c @ 700rpm; 100% all cores is 42-48c :950-1050rpm.
*Setting up GPU PWM control of case fans:*

Obviously GPU fans need to be PWM. Because the GPU PWM header/plug is smaller than normal PWM we need a _Mini 4-Pin GPU (Female) to Mini 4-Pin GPU (Male) / 4-Pin Fan (Male) Cable Splitter Adapter_ is needed-. The blue wire going to normal PWM socket needs to be cut off of mini PWM plug. (You can use this wire to monitor rpm on case fan by connecting it to a normal 3pin fan plug in the rpm position.) Plug a PWM splitter into the normal PWM socket and PSU for case fans.


http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini...)-{47}-4%2dPin-Fan-(Male)-Cable-Splitter.html
Case fans hooked onto this splitter will ramp up and down with GPU fans.
Use GPU software or Bios to setup fan speed curve

modDIY has several adapters and splitters for this.
mini 4-pin PWM adapters
http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini...)-{47}-4%2dPin-Fan-(Male)-Cable-Splitter.html

Mini 5-pin PWM adapters
http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...-Dual-PH-Mini-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html

*GPU PWM to Normal PWM Splitter with PSU Power & Auxiliary RPM Plug*



modDIY has several adapters and splitters for this.
*mini 4-pin PWM adapters*
Mini 4-Pin GPU (Female) to Mini 4-Pin GPU (Male) / 4-Pin Fan (Male) Cable Splitter

http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini...)-{47}-4%2dPin-Fan-(Male)-Cable-Splitter.html

And many more.
http://www.moddiy.com/search.php?search_query=mini+VGA++fan+adapter&x=0&y=0

*Mini 5-pin PWM adapters*
5-Pin VGA PWM Mini PH Connector to Dual PH Mini 4-Pin Fan Cable Splitter

http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...-Dual-PH-Mini-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html

5-Pin VGA PWM Mini PH Connector to Dual PWM 4-Pin Fan Cable Splitter

http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...r-to-Dual-PWM-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html
http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...-Dual-PH-Mini-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html


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## doyll

*How airflow works*
*Airflow is simply displacement; for air to come into case, air must be leaving case .. or .. for air to leave the case, air must be coming into case.*
Think of the air around us as water and we are divers in it and a sunken van is a computer case.

We can't move more water into the van (case) through an open window (vent) unless we have another open window (vent) somewhere else in the van (case) moving the same amount of water (air) out through a window on other side of van (case).
We can't take any water out of van unless we have the same amount of water coming in at the same time.
This means we have to have as many open windows flowing water into van as we have open windows flowing water out.
This is exactly how airflow works. Intake fan pushing / flowing air into case is pushing / flowing the same amount of air out of case.
Adding an exhaust fan can help case airflow, same as adding a back fan on some coolers.
But with good case intake fans we don't need exhaust fans, same as good cooler / radiator fans don't need pull fans.








This is why I used to always change stock intake fans. Now some cases are finally coming with intake fans that have high enough pressure ratings to not need 'helper' (exhaust) fans.









*Setting up a case for optimum cooling*

Setting up the case for optimum cooling is often the hardest and most time consuming part of a build... And the most neglected by most builders.

There is much more to cooling than good cases and good CPU / GPU coolers. Add the fact that many GPU's make more heat than CPU means getting that heat out of the case and keeping a cool airflow to components can be a challenge.
Cases, especially those with filters, usually benefit from fans with higher static pressure ratings than stock fans... "cooler" fans instead of "case" fans.
Intakes typically have more restricted than exhaust because of air filters, more restrictive grills, HDD cages, etc.
I prefer mostly just good pressure rated intake fans and rarely use exhaust fans anymore .. but instead use high enough pressure rated intake fans with exhaust vents being the only other openings in case. This allows intake fans to push air though the case and out. And don't confuse number of fans with amount of airflow... don't confuse air*flow* with air*blow*
air*flow* is flowing cool air from intake to component and then flowing component's hot air on out of case without that heated air mixing with the cool air and warming the air going into component.
air*blow* is lots of fans blowing air around, both cool and hot air from components allowing them to mix and raise the air temp going into components .. because basically every degree warmer the air into component cooler results in component being a degree hotterl.
Putting in good intake fans in case and maybe exhaust is only one part. All openings not covered by intake fans in front and bottom of case need to be blocked so the air fans push into case has to move through case, not leak back in front of fans. I've found I rarely need exhaust fans. Good pressure rated intakes are usually all that's needed.
This does not mean heated air is not mixing with cool air.
Nor does it mean cool air is going to where it is needed.
Getting the air to flow inside of case properly is even more important. We still need to manage where the air flows inside the case. We can do this several ways; deflectors, more intake fans.. & maybe exhaust fans, removing vent grills, removing HDD cage/s, using fans with higher pressure/airflow, building ducts to or from CPU/GPU cooler, etc.
Using a remote temperature sensor to monitor what air temps are is the key to finding out where the cool air is flowing and knowing heated air is not mixing into it. By monitoring this we can than make changes to get airflow the way we want it.
Keep in mind your case needs to flow more air than components do. It isn't so much how many fans but how well they flow air through the case. If component fans move more air than case fans move through case components are using their own heated exhaust to make up the difference and case heats up. Good rule of thumb is 25-50% more case cfm than component cfm but well tuned airflow can be almost equal equal.
Traditional tower cooler exhausting toward back of case must have rear / rear & top back case venting airflow area equal to intake airflow area .. they need to be able to flow more air than components are using .. more cfm than cooler fans have.
A duct from back of cooler to back of case (like Thermalright HR-22 uses) is also an option that works very well.
*Example of Cool & Quiet System*

My Define R2 system has three TY-140 74cfm intake fans. (no exhaust fans) in case while CPU has TY-143 130cfm fan and GPU has two TY-100 44cfm fans
Case = 222cfm
Components = 218cfm
Air temp inside of case going into coolers is never more than 3c above room.
2 front TY-140 1300rpm intake fans match airflow demands of CPU cooler TY-143 2500rpm fans, both PWM controlled by CPU fan header
Bottom TY-140 intake fan supplies airflow demands of & GPU TY-100 fans and are PWM controlled by GPU

It is amazing how much cooler a system runs (and quieter) once the case airflow is setup to keep heated exhaust from contaminating cool intake air. Once we start doing these things, the concept seems like a no-brainer, yet most users seem to think more fans and/or powerful fans are needed to get better cooling. The reality is it's not so much the power and amount of air the fans move. but the currents / pathways the air flows in on it's way through the case that is important. Fan power/airflow only needs to be a little more than the amount the components are using at any given time. Using too many, fan and having too much airflow *airblow* can be as detrimental to case's flow pattern as not using fans with enough flow .. and if the flow isn't tuned to keep cool and heated air separate the system is not going run as cool as it can.


*How to monitor air temperature different places inside of case:*

A cheap indoor/outdoor thermometer with a piece of insulated wire and a plastic clothspin works great.
Made up with floral wire and tape. We don't want anything to short out with metal.









Clip and position sensor where I want to check the temp. Make it easy to see what the air temp going into components actually is relative to room temp.








Optimum cooling is when air temps going into coolers only being 2-3c warmer than room.. 5c or less is good.


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## doyll

*Cooler Size and Clearance Comparison*

This list is some,but by no means all, top coolers and their sizes. There are at least twice as many as in this list. More will be added as I squire and measure them.

Several like Cryorig R1 Ultimate & Universal, all Macho and HE-1 are off-center to the rear giving better RAM clearance. Others like Silver Arrow SB-E & IBE, NH-D15S, HR-22, TRUE Spirit 140 BW Rev. A, etc. are offset for better PCIe socket clearance. Many of the big single tower coolers are just as good as the twin towres. For example TRUE Spirit 140 Power as good as NH-D14 (and quieter) .. as are NH-U14S, Archon and Le Grand Macho (w/ fan).

If you notice any errors, please let me know.


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## doyll

*Cooler Cooling Comparison on 117-345watt CPU size heat source*

And here is temps based on 117-345watt of CPU heat.



Code:



Code:


CPU Cooler Temperature Database

        Cooler                  Fans    Fan Model       RPM/CFM         345.1W  289.9W  232.1W  175.4W  117.1W   dBA*
                                                                          Temperatures    in       Celcius 
Cooler Master Nepton 280L       2x JetFlo 140           2000 / 122.5    17.1    14.6    11.9    9.2     6.2     55.8
Cooler Master Seidon 240M       2x DF1202512RFUN        2400 / 86       20.2    17.1    14.1    10.4    7.9     50.7
Silverstone Tundra TD02         2x AS1225H12            2500 / 92.5     20.6    17.6    14.6    10.7    6.9     49.6
Corsair H105                    2x SP120L               2700 / 3        21.5    18.5    15.8    11.9    8.5     54.3
Corsair H110                    2x      ?               1500 / 94       22.5    19.3    16.0    12.1    8.8     48.7

Corsair H100i                   2x SP120L               2700 / 73       23.8    20.5    17.0    13.0    9.9     54.3
NZXT    Kraken X60              2x FX-140               2000 / 98.3     23.9    20.8    17.3    12.9    9.0     51.2
Corsair H100                    2x      ?               2500 / 92       24.4    20.6    16.7    12.9    9.0     51.2
Noctua  NH-D15                  2x NF-A15               1500 / 82.5     24.0    21.1    18.0    13.7    10.1    41.5
Cooler Master Seidon 120XL      2x DF1202512RFUN        2400 / 86       25.5    21.2    17.2    13.2    9.0     53.2

Akasa   Medusa                  1x AK-FN059             1900 / 84       26.7    22.5    18.7    13.7    10.1    48.1
                                1x AK-FN073             1600 / 110
Thermalright SilverArrow SB-E   1x TY-150               1100 / 84       26.9    22.8    18.7    14.1    9.5     37.4
                                1x TY-141               1300 / 74
Noctua  NH-U14S                 1x NF-A15               1500 / 82.5     27.0    22.9    19.4    14.9    10.6    35.8
Phanteks PH-TC14PE Black        2x PH-F140              1300 / 88.6     27.4    23.5    19.2    14.1    9.9     41.3
Antec   KÜHLER 1250             2x      ?               2400 / 98       27.4    22.9    18.9    14.9    10.9    54.4

Be Quiet! Dark Rock Pro         1x T12025-MF-PWM        1500 / 67.8     28.2    25.9    20.2    16.4    11.2    38.2
                                1x T13525-MF-PWM        1700 / 57.2
Cooler Master Eisberg 240L      2x SA12025SA2           1600 / 60.2     28.9    23.6    19.6    15.0    10.3    48.5
Thermaltake Frio Extreme        2x PLA14025S12H         1800 / 106.2    29.3    24.8    20.4    15.9    10.7    48.7
Enermax Liqtech 240             2x ELC-LT120HP          2500 / 111      29.6    25.2    21.2    15.9    11.4    57.4
Silverstone Tundra TD03         2x AS1225H12            2500 / 92.5     29.7    24.9    19.8    15.5    10.7    51.4

Prolimatech Megahalems BlkViper 2x AK-FN059             1900 / 83.6     30.4    25.8    23.4    16.0    11.5    46.5
Noctua  NH-D14                  1x NF-P14               1200 / 64.9     30.6    26.2    21.3    16.3    11.8    38.2
                                1x NF-P12               1300 / 54.3
Antec   KÜHLER 920              2x      ?               2400 / 110      30.8    27.0    22.8    18.6    14.0    60.5
Scythe  Mugen 3                 1x SY1225SL12M-P        1200 / 68.54    31.0    25.6    21.3    14.8    10.8    42.7
Xigmatek Aegir (SD128264)       1x PLA12025S12M-4       2200 / 89.45    31.1    26.0    20.5    15.2    10.3    45.9

Thermaltake Frio OCK            2x EF RB14025SH         2100 / 121      31.3    26.7    22.1    18.1    13.1    41.1
Corsair H90                     1x SP140                1500 / 94       31.5    26.3    21.8    16.5    11.9    59.3
Silverstone Argon AR01          1x AS1225H12            2200 / 81.40    31.7    26.9    22.3    17.4    12.1    42.8
Thermalright Ultra 120 eXTreme  1x PLA12025S12M-4       2200 / 89.45    32.1    27.0    22.5    17.0    12.0    45.9
Enermax Liqtech 120X            2x ELC-LT120HP          2500 / 111      32.4    26.9    22.3    16.9    12.2    57.3
ELC-LT120HP     2500 /111

Prolimatech Genesis Black       2x PH-F140              1300 / 88.6     33.1    24.4    19.3    14.2    9.7     41.7
Xigmatek Dark Knight SD1283     1x A1225H12S            2200 / 89.45    34.4    28.8    23.5    18.1    12.8    42.8
(Night Hawk Edition)
Alpenfohn Matterhorn Pure       1x      ?               1500 / 108      34.5    29.1    23.8    17.9    12.6    39.8
Noctua  NH-U12S                 1x NF-F1                1500 / 55       35.3    29.9    24.9    19.0    13.7    37.3    
Corsair H75                     2x AF120L               2000 / 54       35.4    29.6    24.9    19.0    14      44.8

Antec   KÜHLER 650              1x      ?               2400 / 98       36.2    30.5    24.9    20.1    14.9    47.4
Scythe  Mine 2                  2x SM1425SL12H          1700 / 92.4     37.7    31.7    25.9    19.7    13.8    38.0**
Cooler Master TPC 800           2x PLA12025S12M-4       2200 / 89.45    38.6    30.1    22.6    15.8    10.6    43.1
Prolimatech Panther             1x RL4R S1202512LNP-4M  1600 / 72.7     42.0    35.9    29.6    21.8    16.5    41.5

Antec KÜHLER 620                1x      ?               2000 / ?        42.0    35.5    29.4    22.6    16.1    43.1

NZXT HAVIK 140                  2x      ?               1200 / 90.3     42.3    35.7    29.0    22.7    14.7    42.5
Be Quiet! Shadow Rock 2         1 BQ PUW2-12025-MR-PWM  1600 / 51       45.4    39.7    32.8    25.7    19.4    38.3

* Measured at 0.5m distance
** Measured with old db meter (not accurate)

http://www.thelab.gr/heatsinks-coolers-watercooling-reviews/cpu-cooler-review-database-89014.html

Should keep you busy for a few minutes.









If you find any errors please let me know.


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## PontiacGTX

Spoiler: Large text wall!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> *Cooler Cooling Comparison on 117-345watt CPU size heat source*
> 
> And here is temps based on 117-345watt of CPU heat.
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> CPU Cooler Temperature Database
> 
> Cooler                  Fans    Fan Model       RPM/CFM         345.1W  289.9W  232.1W  175.4W  117.1W   dBA*
> Temperatures    in       Celcius
> Cooler Master Nepton 280L       2x JetFlo 140           2000 / 122.5    17.1    14.6    11.9    9.2     6.2     55.8
> Cooler Master Seidon 240M       2x DF1202512RFUN        2400 / 86       20.2    17.1    14.1    10.4    7.9     50.7
> Silverstone Tundra TD02         2x AS1225H12            2500 / 92.5     20.6    17.6    14.6    10.7    6.9     49.6
> Corsair H105                    2x SP120L               2700 / 3        21.5    18.5    15.8    11.9    8.5     54.3
> Corsair H110                    2x      ?               1500 / 94       22.5    19.3    16.0    12.1    8.8     48.7
> 
> Corsair H100i                   2x SP120L               2700 / 73       23.8    20.5    17.0    13.0    9.9     54.3
> NZXT    Kraken X60              2x FX-140               2000 / 98.3     23.9    20.8    17.3    12.9    9.0     51.2
> Corsair H100                    2x      ?               2500 / 92       24.4    20.6    16.7    12.9    9.0     51.2
> Cooler Master Seidon 120XL      2x DF1202512RFUN        2400 / 86       25.5    21.2    17.2    13.2    9.0     53.2
> Akasa   Medusa                  1x AK-FN059             1900 / 84       26.7    22.5    18.7    13.7    10.1    48.1
> 1x AK-FN073             1600 / 110
> 
> Thermalright SilverArrow SB-E   1x TY-150               1100 / 84       26.9    22.8    18.7    14.1    9.5     37.4
> 1x TY-141               1300 / 74
> Noctua  NH-U14S                 1x NF-A15               1500 / 82.5     27.0    22.9    19.4    14.9    10.6    35.8
> Phanteks PH-TC14PE Black        2x PH-F140              1300 / 88.6     27.4    23.5    19.2    14.1    9.9     41.3
> Antec   KÜHLER 1250             2x      ?               2400 / 98       27.4    22.9    18.9    14.9    10.9    54.4
> Be Quiet! Dark Rock Pro         1x T12025-MF-PWM        1500 / 67.8     28.2    25.9    20.2    16.4    11.2    38.2
> 1x T13525-MF-PWM        1700 / 57.2
> 
> Cooler Master Eisberg 240L      2x SA12025SA2           1600 / 60.2     28.9    23.6    19.6    15.0    10.3    48.5
> Thermaltake Frio Extreme        2x PLA14025S12H         1800 / 106.2    29.3    24.8    20.4    15.9    10.7    48.7
> Enermax Liqtech 240             2x ELC-LT120HP          2500 / 111      29.6    25.2    21.2    15.9    11.4    57.4
> Silverstone Tundra TD03         2x AS1225H12            2500 / 92.5     29.7    24.9    19.8    15.5    10.7    51.4
> Prolimatech Megahalems BlkViper 2x AK-FN059             1900 / 83.6     30.4    25.8    23.4    16.0    11.5    46.5
> 
> Noctua  NH-D14                  1x NF-P14               1200 / 64.9     30.6    26.2    21.3    16.3    11.8    38.2
> 1x NF-P12               1300 / 54.3
> Antec   KÜHLER 920              2x      ?               2400 / 110      30.8    27.0    22.8    18.6    14.0    60.5
> Scythe  Mugen 3                 1x SY1225SL12M-P        1200 / 68.54    31.0    25.6    21.3    14.8    10.8    42.7
> Xigmatek Aegir (SD128264)       1x PLA12025S12M-4       2200 / 89.45    31.1    26.0    20.5    15.2    10.3    45.9
> Thermaltake Frio OCK            2x EF RB14025SH         2100 / 121      31.3    26.7    22.1    18.1    13.1    41.1
> 
> Corsair H90                     1x SP140                1500 / 94       31.5    26.3    21.8    16.5    11.9    59.3
> Silverstone Argon AR01          1x AS1225H12            2200 / 81.40    31.7    26.9    22.3    17.4    12.1    42.8
> Thermalright Ultra 120 eXTreme  1x PLA12025S12M-4       2200 / 89.45    32.1    27.0    22.5    17.0    12.0    45.9
> Enermax Liqtech 120X            2x ELC-LT120HP          2500 / 111      32.4    26.9    22.3    16.9    12.2    57.3
> ELC-LT120HP     2500 /111
> Prolimatech Genesis Black       2x PH-F140              1300 / 88.6     33.1    24.4    19.3    14.2    9.7     41.7
> 
> Xigmatek Dark Knight SD1283     1x A1225H12S            2200 / 89.45    34.4    28.8    23.5    18.1    12.8    42.8
> (Night Hawk Edition)
> Alpenfohn Matterhorn Pure       1x      ?               1500 / 108      34.5    29.1    23.8    17.9    12.6    39.8
> Noctua  NH-U12S                 1x NF-F1                1500 / 55       35.3    29.9    24.9    19.0    13.7    37.3
> Corsair H75                     2x AF120L               2000 / 54       35.4    29.6    24.9    19.0    14      44.8
> Antec   KÜHLER 650              1x      ?               2400 / 98       36.2    30.5    24.9    20.1    14.9    47.4
> 
> Scythe  Mine 2                  2x SM1425SL12H          1700 / 92.4     37.7    31.7    25.9    19.7    13.8    38.0**
> Cooler Master TPC 800           2x PLA12025S12M-4       2200 / 89.45    38.6    30.1    22.6    15.8    10.6    43.1
> Prolimatech Panther             1x RL4R S1202512LNP-4M  1600 / 72.7     42.0    35.9    29.6    21.8    16.5    41.5
> 
> Antec KÜHLER 620                1x      ?               2000 / ?        42.0    35.5    29.4    22.6    16.1    43.1
> NZXT HAVIK 140                  2x      ?               1200 / 90.3     42.3    35.7    29.0    22.7    14.7    42.5
> 
> Be Quiet! Shadow Rock 2         1 BQ PUW2-12025-MR-PWM  1600 / 51       45.4    39.7    32.8    25.7    19.4    38.3
> 
> * Measured at 0.5m distance
> ** Measured with old db meter (not accurate)
> 
> http://www.thelab.gr/heatsinks-coolers-watercooling-reviews/cpu-cooler-review-database-89014.html
> 
> Should keep you busy for a few minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you find any errors please let me know.





could you check those results some are bad


----------



## doyll

*Downflow / Pancake Cooler Fan Orientation for Better Cooling*
I've found more often than not using the fan to pull air up from cooler give significantly lower temps than pushing air into cooler.

Reason is pushing air in through cooler means hot air coming out toward motherboard turns out, hits RAM, GPU, I/O houseings etc. turning up past cooler & fan and is sucked back into fan.

With fan pulling out of cooler air flows over motherboard, up into cooler, fan and out side vents.

Even on open bench testing just turning the fan often lowers mobo and CPU temps by 5-8c


You think I used enough pretty arrows? :


----------



## doyll

*How to Apply Thermal-paste*

Tiny dot is all that is needed. . A print like this on CPU is good. No surplus on heatsink. Temp is 50c
  
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/What-is-the-Best-Way-to-Apply-Thermal-Grease-Part-1/1303/2


Small dot is biggest needed. Print is complete CPU & litte extra. Notice the surplus at top and bottom of heatsink . Temp is 50c too.
  
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/What-is-the-Best-Way-to-Apply-Thermal-Grease-Part-1/1303/3


Bigger dot that is just too big. Surplus pushed out around CPU. Also on heatsink. And temp is 2c higher at 52c.
  
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/What-is-the-Best-Way-to-Apply-Thermal-Grease-Part-1/1303/4


Keep in mind all of these are within 2c margin of error. In fact the temperature difference could be as little as 1c or as great as 5c.
 
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/What-is-the-Best-Way-to-Apply-Thermal-Grease-Part-1/1303/10
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/what-is-the-best-way-to-apply-thermal-grease-part-1/9/



*Direct Metal to Metal, No TIM Layer In-between!*
Be careful not to apply too much TIM. *We want only enough to fill the voids in the crystalline structure of the metal where it does not give direct metal to metal contact. We do not what TIM to form a layer between the IHS and cooler base*
In case you do not know, TIM heat transfer is not even close to what good metal to metal contact is, but it is much better than what air transfers when there is no TIM in the voids created by the pores of the metal structure.

Heat tranfer ability of different things:Copper is 400 W/(m·K) heat transfer
Aluminum 210 W/(m·K))
Lead is 35 W/(m·K)
Typical TIM is rated 3.5-10.5 W/(m-K) (GC Extreme 8.5W/(m·K), Chill Factor III 3.5W(m-K) in use this is only 1-2c difference in CPU temp)*
Air is 0.024 W/(m·K)

To put that into perspective, any way you look at it metal to metal is 50 times better than TIM:Copper is 47 times better than Gelid GC Extreme TIM & 114 times better than Chill Factor III
TIM is 333 times better than air at sea level.

*i don't know how accurate the W(m-K) ratings are onl TIM, but do know the temperature differences between top 30 or 40 TIMs are all within a degree or two, except for liquid metal variants .. which are a degree or two better.



*CPU Chip Size Under IHS*
Also keep in mind the area of IHS that transfers the heat from CPU chip is much smaller than the total top of IHS. It varies from CPU to CpU. While Intel chips it is generally a square or rectangular chip in the center part of IHS, AMD CPUs sometimes have the chips in the corners.



 

*Heat Transfer Ability of TIM & Other Materials*


----------



## doyll

*How Airflow and Static Pressure Specifications relate to real world use.*


*Airflow specification is the maximum airflow of a fan with no resistance to the airflow* ..
Not a real world use of our fans.
But we use the fan in a case with a grill (restricting airflow) and often a filter (also restricting airflow) and often blowing into a HDD cage (still more restriction to airflow).

End result is that the fan specified airflow is more than twice what is actually flowing .. in fact often even more.


*Static pressure rating is the pressure level when air stops flowing* .
Again, not a real world use of our fans.

The reality is that if we have 2 fans, one with a higher airflow and lower static pressure rating and the other with lower airflow and higher static pressure rating .. but in almost every case (no pun) the lower airflow / higher static pressure rated fan will flow more air than the higher airflow / lower static pressure rated fan will

Let us look at fan A with 70cfm & 0.8mm H2O rating compared to fan B with 50cfm and 2.0mm H2O rating.

Now let us assume the grill, filter, HDD cage, cables etc. create a pressure level of 0.35mm H2O .. half of fan A's rating .. which drops the cfm by about 60-70% giving us 21 -28cfm of airflow. But for fan B the 0.35mm H2O resistance is dropping the airflow by 20-30% leaving us with 35 - 40cfm of airflow.

*Fans A and B with 0.35mm H2O resistance*

Fan A 70cfm & 0.8mm H2O fan is flowing 21-28cfm.
Fan B 50cfm & 2.0mm H2O fan is flowing 35-40cfm.

But what if the grill, filter, HDD cage, cables, etc create 0.8mm H2O? This is the static pressure rating of fan A .. so now it is flowing no air.. But for fan B the 0.8mm H2O is less than have it's static pressure rating and iy will still be flowing about half of it's rating leaving us with about 25cfm airflow.

*Fans A and B with 0.8mm H2O resistance*

Fan A 70cfm & 0.8mm H2O fan is flowing 0 cfm.
Fan B 50cfm & 2.0mm H2O fan is flowing 25cfm.
These are estimated resistance and airflow to resistance to give an example. Hopefully it helps you understand how static pressure and airflow relate to each other

In most cases a fan with a real static pressure rating of about 1.5mm H2O will do a good job of moving air.

*P/Q Curve
Actual Airflow Versus Peak CFM & Static Pressure:*Testing is done for:

Airflow; done in free airflow .. not resistance at all .. fan hanging in open space. All of our fan use has resistance.
Noise; done in free airflow .. no resistance means less noise. Again, all our fan use has resistance.
Static pressure The amount of pressure it takes to stop fan's airflow. All of our use requires airflow .. so not really applicable to our use. P-Q curve graph is more appropriate.


Here is a P-Q graph and chart of fan performance at 0.5 & 1.0mmH2O to show how far from specs the actual airflow is in use .. like intake through a grill, filter or exhaust through a grill, or on a cooler / radiator. Our fans are working with from 0.1 to 1.0mmH2O .. usually 0.2 - 0.7mmH2O. .. meaning 0.5mmH2O resistance is a quite appropriate for our uses. Also keep in mind this is with fans at full speed. The flow / ability to overcome resistance drops dramatically at fan speed slows down.
Please remember I am not recommending any of the fans. Some are great, some are not. This is only an example of airflow with resistance similar to what we have compared to their published specifications.

Please take note of how many of the fans are flowing no air at all at 0.5mm H2O and how many more are flowing nothing at 0.75mm H2O.
Please take note of how many of the fans are flowing less than 20CFM at these pressure.

Notice how much airflow the other fans are flowing at 0.5 and 0.75mm H2O compared to what they flow with no resistance (0.0mm H2O). I put a line in to show 20 CFM, but if that is all the case is flowing per fan and the CPU cooler has a 60-70cfm rated fan, it will take 3 case fans to just keep up with the CPU cooler .. and most GPU coolers use as much air as the CPU coolers .. meaning 6x case fans each moving 20cfm into the case in order to keep up wiht the component demand.



Also, this data is based on fans running at full speed. It is important to remember that as fan speed decreases, so does it's CFM of airflow .. and also it's static pressure rating. In other words a fan that will flow 65cfm in open air and flows 35cfm at 0.5mm H2O at full speed is lowered to half speed it will flow about halve as much. Add pressure (resistance) and it is much lower still.

http://thermalbench.com/2015/01/30/ekwb-vardar-f2-120-fan/3/

Linear FPM is the air speed. CFM is calculated by using the area of the hole the air is flowing though and the air's speed. For example a 140mm fans is 0.1656 sq feet times 300 FPM (feet per minute) is 49.68CFM


Another example:

Scythe GT-15 ratings are 58cfm / 2.03mm H2O
Cougar Vortex ratings are 70.5cfm / 2.2mm H2O
GT-15 is flowing 7.8-7.9cfm more air at 1.02-1.19mm H2O
The area of pressure we use fans in normal applications on radiators, coolers, grills and filters.



Edited from

martinsliquidlab.org


----------



## Gregory14

I have a 2nd Watercooled i7-4770k computer in a Cosair Vengeance C70 chassis, if your familiar with it, if not, it has 2 side intakes, HDD intakes, 1 rear fan, and I have a 280mm RAD on top pushing air out from the top. I'm planning to add 2 more fans on top for a push/pull, and I'm concerned about intake. The other fans are only 120mm, while 140mm x 4 are on the rad.

Should I use the rear fan as an intake, thus making the only outlet through the top radiator?

THanks,

Gregory14


----------



## doyll

*TomsHARDWARE TIM testing*
Please keep in mind each series of tests were done on very different systems using very different coolers .. ranging from H80i CLC to be quiet! Shadow Rock to boxed intel cooler. At the bottom of each graph I included the system used.
I don't see any details about how they measured room cooler intake air temp so if we assume it is room with temperatures between 71-73f (21.7-22.8c). That is a +/-0.55c (1.1c total) margin of error. This means a 1.2c recorded difference in CPU temperatures could be 0.1c or 2.3c with just the differences in room temperature. If we allow for each TIM seating to be +/-1c (which it often is) our margin of error is 0.1-4.3c.

"


----------



## Gregory14

yes I did. I just noticed its already plugged into the cpu socket, so I set it to silent mode, 645RPM, I noticed right away temps were lower, most likely due to more positive air pressure in the case than before.

And about the push pull, gonna reconsider it, I havent hit past 60c gaming. I know now I wont get 200% cooling with 2 fans push/pull.

What about Gaskets? I have some spare 140mm ones, where would I sandwich them? Fan-Rad or Rad-top mesh? both? looking to quiet things down.


----------



## doyll

Probably between fan and radiator. Will stop air leaking out instead of going through radiator and will increase distance from fan to radiator .. which often lowers noise level.










*Case Bottom Spacing Effect on Airflow to Bottom Fans
This spacing effect is also often seen with front and top panel/venting too.*










Be creative when looking for spacers .. bottle caps, arisol paint can caps, hockey pucks, little brother's building blocks, etc. will all work.


*Grill & Filter Effect on Airflow & Noise level*



SilverStone Technology Co., Ltd.
Scroll down to see how air flows through round wire grill versus punched metal grill.


Effects of Grill Patterns on Fan Performance/Noise

Here is a drawing of basic grill mesh designs showing what their open area / airflow area is. Notice hexagonal / honeycomb patterns have much more open area for air to flow through.













Attached is drawing of recommended fan clearance for single fans. Fans side by side need more because side against other fan/s is blocked by other fan.


----------



## doyll

PWM control with PSU power to PWM fan and PWM adapter with 12v power from PSU


*PWM Header & Plug Pinout*


*PWM 'Y' Splitter & with 2nd Fan RPM Monitor*


*PWM Splitter with PSU Power*


----------



## doyll

*How to Make Air Ducts*


----------



## Mang Keon

Great thread doyll! Thank you.
how about Phanteks PH-F140HP?
I'm considering this to replace the XT140-

If it's better than XF140.because I like the colors. LOL


----------



## doyll

*Phillips vs PosiDriv Screws & Screwdrivers* Don't confuse them!!










The PH-F140HP is good .. although I have not personally used them, I have used the F140TS, early PHF140HP non-PWM, and PH-F140SP fans. What colors do you need .. err.. want?


----------



## Mang Keon

LoL.

I need and want a white and blue theme.

Anyways, If they're on par or even better than XF140, I might replace the one on the C1.My case is all black even inside.

Thanks.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mang Keon*
> 
> LoL.
> 
> I need and want a white and blue theme.
> 
> Anyways, If they're on par or even better than XF140, I might replace the one on the C1.My case is all black even inside.
> 
> Thanks.


Then the PH-F140HP is good.

*How Intake & Exhaust Fans Close to Each Other Can Cause Airflow Loop*


----------



## cookieboyeli

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Then the PH-F140HP is good.


(Sorry if this is noobish, I'm still learning)!

Is it possible to mount these on a 420mm rad? Before you say no because of the 120mm mounting holes, what if I used this? http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16544/fss-43/ModRight_Ninja_Vibration_Silencer_140mm_Fan_Gasket_w_Lip_-_White.html#blank
and maybe some tape?

Will this be at least as effective as having square fans with 140mm mounting holes? Or will performance be different somehow versus a theoretical square PH-F140HP?

I bought them anyway knowing they won't natively fit a radiator because this is exactly the model I want. It's 4 pin/PWM, has a white frame and fan, 140mm, and performance rivaling noctua's at a reasonable price. It was also the best stat-wise (I think) compared to the other white 140mm Phantek offerings. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FZM30YG/
I just bought 5 and will be using them as case fans for now in my NZXT H630, but I want to use them on radiators in the future when I get watercooling.


----------



## doyll

No, they are vibration dampening material (rubber / silicone) and only 2mm thick. They are the right shape but not rigid or thick enough to be used as mounting adapters. Something like this:

*120mm to 140mm mounting adapter for 140mm fans with 120mm mounts*









I've made these before and they work great. Only need a drill press and table saw .. and a 135mm hole saw.








If person was doing 50+ it would not take long per adapter, but it's very time consuming when only making a couple.Takes more time setting up for each step when only doing a few than actual cutting / drilling time. First setup to cut the 135mm holes, then cut squares w/ 135mm hole, then drill 104.5mm spacing holes & countersink, then drill 124.5mm spacing holes.
I have not seen anything similar being marketed. Wish someone would. Nothing trick or expensive.


----------



## cookieboyeli

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> No, they are vibration dampening material (rubber / silicone) and only 2mm thick. They are the right shape but not rigid or thick enough to be used as mounting adapters. Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've made these before and they work great. Only need a drill press and table saw .. and a 135mm hole saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If person was doing 50+ it would not take long per adapter, but it's very time consuming when only making a couple.Takes more time setting up for each step when only doing a few than actual cutting / drilling time. First setup to cut the 135mm holes, then cut squares w/ 135mm hole, then drill 104.5mm spacing holes & countersink, then drill 124.5mm spacing holes.
> I have not seen anything similar being marketed. Wish someone would. Nothing trick or expensive.


Thanks very much for your reply! In a few months when I go water I will use these charts. Where would I get white silicone sheets though? Aesthetics is a top priority.

Will I have to cut off the edge of the edges of fan though? I hope the points don't stick out...


----------



## doyll

You don't use silicone for this sort of thing. You want a rigid plastic that is not brittle. Acrylic will work but it is pretty easy to crack / break. I would use something like ABS plastic or polycarbonate. ABS would be cheapest. Find a plastic shop near where you live and stop in. Explain what you want to do and they may give you some scrap pieces to make your adapters with. If not they won't charge you much.









As for cutting of the edges, I assume you mean on your PH-F140HP fan? No, they are 140x140mm. Adapter base may need to be trimmed depending on the spacing of case / cooler holes, but most allow for fans being 141mm square.

*Bolt through mounting kits upgrade thick base Thermalright coolers:*

Venomous X BTK II for Upgrade Cooler to S
Product Code: VX-BTK-II


Although it only says Venomous, it works on:
Archon (SB-E/SB-E X2)
AXP-140
HR-01/HR-02/HR-22
IFX-14
MUX-120
Venomous
Silver Arrow
Ultra-120

For sockets:
1150/1155/1156/1366/2011
AM2+/AM3+/FM2/FM3



TRUE Bolt Through Kit only shows up on Thermalright.de website.


Works on:
Archon (SB-E/SB-E X2)
AXP-140
HR-01/HR-02/HR-22
IFX-14
MUX-120
Venomous
Silver Arrow
Ultra-120

For sockets:
1150/1155/1156/1366/2011
AM2+/AM3+/FM2/FM3


----------



## cookieboyeli

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You don't use silicone for this sort of thing. You want a rigid plastic that is not brittle. Acrylic will work but it is pretty easy to crack / break. I would use something like ABS plastic or polycarbonate. ABS would be cheapest. Find a plastic shop near where you live and stop in. Explain what you want to do and they may give you some scrap pieces to make your adapters with. If not they won't charge you much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for cutting of the edges, I assume you mean on your PH-F140HP fan? No, they are 140x140mm. Adapter base may need to be trimmed depending on the spacing of case / cooler holes, but most allow for fans being 141mm square.


This makes sense (I'm 100% noob with modding), I will probably get a piece large enough so I can fit it directly to the radiator after attaching all 3 fans to it. That way there are even less air gaps vs 3 separate pieces.

"Plastic shop"... so would Home Depot or Lowes sell what you're talking about? Is there any way to get some online? I live in the middle of nowhere so I shop online mostly.


----------



## doyll

*Noctua NF-A14 & NF-A15 series and other fans compared to Thermalright TY-140 series fans*









The pink circled data shows how testing results vary. Different humidity, temperature, barometric pressure, etc. all can cause results to be a little different. This is "margin of error" and must be taken into account when comparing the results of different fans.


----------



## Axaion

Sorry for a bit off topic doyll, but i noticed one of my TY-143', make a whine noise similar to a lamp or a monitor that has noise, id say its a low "uuuuuu" sound, if i stop the fan with my finger, it goes away, so its only one of the two fans.

The fan is about a year old, but its always done it, but i didnt hear it before now, due to a previously noisy graphics card (gigabyte 560 ti, now a MSI GTX 970)

Any experience with thermalrights RMA?, and heard of the issue before?

Sorry for off-topic


----------



## doyll

*How to Figure Out What CPU and RAM Clearances Are*



Have never had to RMA anything with Thermalright, but whenever I need customer support they have been very good.
I suggest sending them an email explaining the problem and see what they say.


----------



## Axaion

Alright will do, Thanks. - Sorry for off-topic.


----------



## doyll

*Thermalright TY-14x fan series*TY-14x fans all have almost identical sound at same RPMHere are the dbA levels of two TY-143 fans on PH-TC14PE at 1 meter on open bench. These fans have been on this system 24/7 for about 20 months now.1100rpm = 31dBA1300rpm = 34.5dBA1550rpm = 36dBA1700rpm = 39dBA2000rpm = 41dBA2200rpm = 45dBA2420rpm = 46dBAAll TY-14x fans also have same performance curveAlso all but TY-141 have same blade design.TY-140 . . . . . . . . . . .TY-141. . . . . . . . . . .TY-143 . . . . . . . . . . .TY-147 / TY-147A . . . .TY-147A Black Now look at how closely the NF-A14 and NF-15 match the TY-14x design in post #27.Also the performance comparisons in post #27.There is a new TY-147 A out now that will repace the TY-140 & TY-147. Same fan with a lower idle speed and different PWM/RPM curve. I only have one of these but am very impressed. The 300rpm to 600rpm range greatly enhances the versatility of this fan.At this time I can buy TY-143 for £6.95 and TY-147 fans for £6.59 .. a fraction of what Noctua fans cost. But even at full price are still less expensive than Noctua.Just put this together with Coolingtechnique data. Rather obvious the Thermalright TY-14x series fans are as if not better than Noctua NF-A14, NF-A15 1500rpm and NF-A15 iPPC 3000rpm fans when running at same speed.You can see in this bar graph the NF-A1x series have more static pressure and perfrom the same as TY-147A and TY-143 on radiator, but TY-147A and TY-143 pull away with with less resistance of just filter and without filter.


----------



## Fiernaq

I've got some questions about how best to cool a horizontal motherboard style case. I'm putting together a build using the Cooler Master HAF XB EVO case and plan to fully air cool it. I've got an ATX board with an i7-4790k and am using the Cryorig R1 Universal to cool it. For now I just have a single MSI GTX 980 Gaming 4G video card but plan to put a second one in within the next few months. An EVGA SuperNOVA 750 G2 is powering all this and I only have a single Samsung 850 Pro SSD and Seagate Constellation ES.3 HDD.

Cooler Master has these airflow "guides" along with the following fan capabilities:

● Top: 200mm fan x 1 (optional)
● Front: 120mm XtraFlo fan x 2, 1200 RPM, 17 dBA (installed), or 140mm fan x 2 (optional)
● Rear: 120mm fan x 1, or 80mm fan x 2 (optional)

My goal is to keep it fairly quiet without going all silent nazi on it. I'll be running a "reasonable" OC where I'll bump it up as high as it can run stable and then take it back down a couple notches (hope to end up around 4.4-4.5GHz) and don't plan on any GPU or memory OCing beyond what they come with already so I doubt that I'll be putting out a whole lot of heat. One area that does concern me is dust since I live in the opposite of a clean-room so I'd prefer to get positive pressure in the case if possible although I'm not sure how to do this without room for fans on the bottom front to pull cool air in down there.

As mentioned above, the case comes with just two XtraFlo 120mm fans and I doubt these are very good. I guess my second question after figuring out where all I need fans in order to achieve positive pressure would be which ones to go with. Fortunately, this isn't an immediate concern since I can always replace these after my build is done so if you'd rather wait and see photos of what the interior of the case looks like when filled with components then that's fine. Price shouldn't be a concern as long as you're not recommending gold coated or diamond studded fans (which would be kind of awesome). Really, I just need help figuring out which fans are good. I've read through a couple of these forum threads and am still a bit confused by all the research you OCN people put into this stuff.

So yeah, what would you recommend I do for case fans? Also, if this post should be moved somewhere else please let me know. Too many threads on air cooling to know which one to put my question in.


----------



## doyll

*Vibration Dampeners & Mounts*
To isolate vibration like a side cover touching a cooler or fan on cooler I use self adhesive cabinet door silencers / bump stops These are available at most cabinet shops or hardware stores in different sizes and thicknesses.










Mounting fans with the silicone fan screws works well for case fans. More soon.


----------



## Fiernaq

Heh, no problem, take your time. I figured you or someone else would enjoy the challenge. I'm also willing to work with you a bit if you want to test a few well thought out options.

On a side note, any idea what kind of idle temps I should be aiming for with the i7-4790k before OCing? I used some old Gelid TIM I had instead of the stuff that came with the Cryorig R1 and was at 29C that slowly rose to 33C after about an hour sitting in the bios. I'd like to get good idle temps before I finish doing cable management or installing the OS. I figure I'll try the other TIM at least once and see if I get better results but am I at least close to good numbers or do you think I goofed on the heatsink install? I'm a bit rusty; haven't built a PC in two years.

I'll try to pick out a few choice photos tonight so I can get my official build log post started. I wish I could get a job just building PCs. It's so much fun.


----------



## doyll

Best way to evaluate CPU (and GPU temps is to monitor the air going into them Like the Optimizing Case Cooling says, it's all about supplying them with the coolest air possible. The continual rise over an hour indicates the case air is rising in temp which results in the CPU rising about the same amount. A simple and low priced indoor/outdoor thermometer like I show works very well.


----------



## doyll

*Squaring TY-14x fans*


----------



## doyll

*Making PH-TC14PE Fan Mounting Clips for TY-140 series fans*

The stock fan clip pins either have to be cut to clear the beveled edge inside of TY-140 series fans or make pins from zip-ties.
First feed the tip Zip-tie through the mounting hole and back, start it into it's latch, slip something about 2mm in size (like drill bit) into Zip-tie loop on other side of fan hole and pull Zip-tie tight. Clip off excess zip-tie and we have one new fan clip pin.

Zip-tie fan clip adapter in wrong mounting hole. . . . . Phanteks fan clip and home-made Zip-tie fan clip
 

Zip-tie fan clip adapter in TY-143 fan


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> *Controlling case fans with PWM signal from motherboard CPU fan header and GPU fan header.*
> 
> *Setting up GPU PWM control of case fans:*
> 
> Obviously GPU fans need to be PWM. Because the GPU PWM header/plug is smaller than normal PWM we need a _Mini 4-Pin GPU (Female) to Mini 4-Pin GPU (Male) / 4-Pin Fan (Male) Cable Splitter Adapter_ is needed-. The blue wire going to normal PWM socket needs to be cut off of mini PWM plug. (You can use this wire to monitor rpm on case fan by connecting it to a normal 3pin fan plug in the rpm position.) Plug a PWM splitter into the normal PWM socket and PSU for case fans.
> 
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini-4%252dPin-GPU-%28Female%29-to-Mini-4%252dPin-GPU-%28Male%29-%7B47%7D-4%252dPin-Fan-%28Male%29-Cable-Splitter.html
> Case fans hooked onto this splitter will ramp up and down with GPU fans.
> Use GPU software or Bios to setup fan speed curve


Doyll, what happens if you don't cut the blue wire? I had thought GPU's monitor fan
speed as well?


----------



## 8051

WRT Thermalright vs. Noctua, doesn't Noctua use much better bearings
than Thermalright? I've read Noctua uses some sort of magnetic bearings
in their high end fans while most Thermalright fans seem to use sleeve
bearings.


----------



## doyll

8051 said:


> Doyll, what happens if you don't cut the blue wire? I had thought GPU's monitor fan
> speed as well?


Normally the blue wire is pin-4 .. the PWM signal. Green or yellow is typically the RPM lead color.

The GPU fan is monitoring is being monitored. We do not want another RPM signal going to GPU and mixing up the GPU fan signal.

You can use the RPM lead from fan in another plug and plug it into unused motherboard fan header to see the fan's RPM. Post #17 here shows how this works.

*GPU PWM to Normal PWM Splitter with PSU Power & Auxiliary RPM Plug*


modDIY has several adapters and splitters for this.
mini 4-pin PWM adapters
http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini...)-{47}-4%2dPin-Fan-(Male)-Cable-Splitter.html

Mini 5-pin PWM adapters
http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...-Dual-PH-Mini-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.htmlhttp://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...-Dual-PH-Mini-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *8051*
> 
> WRT Thermalright vs. Noctua, doesn't Noctua use much better bearings
> than Thermalright? I've read Noctua uses some sort of magnetic bearings
> in their high end fans while most Thermalright fans seem to use sleeve
> bearings.


There is nothing the matter with sleeve bearings. Most internal combustion engines use similar bearings.

I have some TY-140 fans that have been in use for a long long time pretty much running 24/7 .. I think about 6 years now. They are still as quiet as they were to start with.

*Fan Vibration Dampening With Grommets like used for Electrical Work*
One of the best ways I've seen and used is with old fashion wiring grommets.


The case usually needs the hole drilled out so grommet will fit. Drill hole big enough so grommet is a nice loose fit. This way when screw snugs up it does not force the rubber hard against the edges of hole.

Also solves the problem of blind mounting of screw through a rubber wash without it touching the case. A vibration mount only works if it separates the vibrating object (fan) from what it's mounted on. If any part of fan or it's mounting hardware touches what it is being mounted to, the vibration is transmitted through this contact.

Additionally, the screw must not be tightened into fan too tight or the 'vibration mount' is compressed, becomes more dense and transmits the vibration.


----------



## 8051

Doyll since I'm attaching one PWM fan (one of your recommended Noctuas, the NF-A14 Industrial PPC-3000 PWM)
to my Zotac GTX780 PWM connector using a mini 4-pin PWM adapter I don't want to cut any of the wires on the
adapter right?


----------



## doyll

If that is the only fan on GPU than leave it connected.







And for what it's worth, I use Thermalright TY-143 fans, not NF-A14IPPC-3000 PWM fans. Plenty of oomph and much lower priced.







*Fan Bearing Types; Ball-Bearing Versus Sleeve Bearing and It's Fluid Dynamic Variants*For all intent and purpose, we have 2 kinds of bearing fans. Ball and Sleeve. It doesn't matter what fancy names fan companies put name there sleeve bearings, they are still in the sleeve bearing family. Fluid bearings are basically just sophisticated sleeve bearings with slightly different ways of using the lubricant in the space between the bearing sleeve and shaft. The lubricant between the shaft and sleeve is what they are referring to when the call these bearings 'Fluid Dynamic Bearing". But almost all sleeve bearings require lubricant too. After all, lubrication is what keeps bearings from getting noisy and seizing .. even ball bearings. tongue.gifBottom line is the quality of bearing is far more important than what kind of bearing it is, be it ball or sleeve. Poor quality ball bearings will fail before good quality sleeve bearings. Yes, a good ball bearing has a longer life expectancy, but we are talking 80,000 to 95,000 hours @ 25c, or 52,000 to 75,000 hours @ 40c. That is almost 6 years of use without ever being turned off. How many of us will be using the fans we buy now for that many years?


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> There is nothing the matter with sleeve bearings. Most internal combustion engines use similar bearings.
> 
> I have some TY-140 fans that have been in use for a long long time pretty much running 24/7 .. I think about 6 years now. They are still as quiet as they were to start with.


The crankshaft bearings in a V8 have oil being forced into their
bearing surfaces under high pressure, a fan sleeve bearing
doesn't.

Many internal combustion engines don't use rod bearings, single
cylinder engines and V-twins commonly use needle bearings.

I've also read sleeve bearing fans don't work well in horizontal
mountings.


----------



## doyll

*Phanteks Case Grill & Panel Clip Operation*


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Oil at high pressure? 35-60 psi is definitely not high pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most internal combustion engines I've worked on (thousands of them) have rod bearing, crank shaft bearings, etc., and few of them are using needle bearings / roller bearings.
> 
> But please feel free to believe what you want.
> 
> And for the record 2 of my original TY-140 fans are bottom case fans. Oh!, and the TY-143 has ball bearings.


Ever worked on 2-strokes? Ever worked on any singles?

Thousands of engines? WHERE?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *8051*
> 
> Ever worked on 2-strokes? Ever worked on any singles?


Just one engine every two weeks is over a thousand.







But my background in internal combustion engines is off subject. We digressed in your attempt to paint all sleeve bearings as the devil's seed.. and they are not .. in fact some are quite good. After all, most fans do have some form of sleeve bearing. Some are excellent .. some are quite bad. You paint them all bad with a single brush stroke, I don't. This ends here and now.


----------



## doyll

*Fractal Design Define R2 (& other Define cases) modified to 140mm fans, bottom & back grills removed*, front refitted to 140mm fans

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wijkert*
> 
> Update: I bought a Dremel 3000 and cut away the grills. The increase in airflow is quite noticeable, especially from the fans at the bottom, since those grills actually have a thicker pattern. I have left the Titan and pci bracket area alone. Still thinking about upgrading to a 980ti or 390x in the near future. If I decide not to, I will work on the bracket of the Titan. Considering it was the first time I took on a project like this, I am happy with the result.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Before & After Images


http://www.overclock.net/t/1547358/feedback-r5-airflow/0_20#post_23912336

[quote
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wijkert*
> 
> The noise actually was reduced by removing the grills. I still use the fan filters (just removed them to take the pictures).
> It is not the temperature, but the noise that was bothering me. Never had good results lowering the the temp/noise by using a sidepanel fan. It messes up the airflow in the case as well.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1547358/feedback-r5-airflow/0_20#post_23912478


----------



## Dwhite311988

I had recently purchased an Air 540 in Arctic White to do my black/white (mostly white) themed build. I am running an Asus Mark S Sabertooth with the Avexir Sabranco limited edition ram sticks and a Galax GTX 980 Hall of Fame gpu. I know some of that seems irrelevant, but I kind of wanted to give an idea on the theme I have going on here before I ask my questions. I was wondering which black/white fans would be optimal for my case? I am trying to further understand your guides to help choose and set up my fans. Also, I would like a matching cpu cooler that will still allow me to show off my blinking white LED lights on the ram without sacrificing cooling performance? I hear that the mounts for the front intake on the air 540 can slightly restrict the airflow when using two 140mm fans instead of 3 120mm fans. As far as cpu cooler goes, I know there is a Dark Knight II Frostbourne Edition that seems like it may fit well with my theme - http://www.techpowerup.com/180801/xigmatek-dark-knight-frostbourne-edition-cpu-cooler-announced.html. Any suggestions on case fan choice/setup would be greatly appreciated. What is your opinion on the Aerocool Dead Silence case fans? I am also considering the TY-147A fans. I live in the United States, but I don't mind having anything shipped from overseas. Thanks in advance!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dwhite311988*
> 
> I had recently purchased an Air 540 in Arctic White to do my black/white (mostly white) themed build. I am running an Asus Mark S Sabertooth with the Avexir Sabranco limited edition ram sticks and a Galax GTX 980 Hall of Fame gpu. I know some of that seems irrelevant, but I kind of wanted to give an idea on the theme I have going on here before I ask my questions. I was wondering which black/white fans would be optimal for my case? I am trying to further understand your guides to help choose and set up my fans. Also, I would like a matching cpu cooler that will still allow me to show off my blinking white LED lights on the ram without sacrificing cooling performance? I hear that the mounts for the front intake on the air 540 can slightly restrict the airflow when using two 140mm fans instead of 3 120mm fans. As far as cpu cooler goes, I know there is a Dark Knight II Frostbourne Edition that seems like it may fit well with my theme - http://www.techpowerup.com/180801/xigmatek-dark-knight-frostbourne-edition-cpu-cooler-announced.html. Any suggestions on case fan choice/setup would be greatly appreciated. What is your opinion on the Aerocool Dead Silence case fans? I am also considering the TY-147A fans. I live in the United States, but I don't mind having anything shipped from overseas. Thanks in advance!


Sorry for the delay. Busy weekend chasing bunnies.









Some of this you already know, but here goes.

Your Mark S Sabertooth has about 50-52mm center CPU toward RAM.
Avexir Sabranco is 30mm tall

Cryorig R1 Universal is mostly white and is 48.5mm center CPU to front of 13mm front fan.
 

Stock fan clears no problem. Using TY-147 or TY-147A fans or some other white fans would move fan over RAM a little.


Not many white coolers out there. I'm not impressed with the Dark Night coolers. Have you considered using white light gray spray paint on a cooler? As long as the top is color matched to your system, the fins hardly show. And by spraying at a steep angle the edges get colored when painting the top of cooler without hindering cooling. We just don't want a lot of paint going between the fins, but on the edges it no problem.

I have never used Aerocool fans so can't really help there. I do use TY-140, TY-143, TY-147 and TY-147A fans and love them all.


----------



## miklkit

I replaced some Aerocool Sharks with AC DS fans and while they are a little quieter they don't move much air. Temps went up so I replaced them with el cheapo Arctic Cooling F12s and temp and noise went down.

There are lots of better fans out there than the DS.


----------



## cephelix

@doyll

Hey there, since this seems the most appropriate place, I thought I'd ask you questions I have regarding airflow in the case here instead of starting a new thread.

First of all, the specs for my current build are in my sig, but basically it's in a Corsair 750D, Running a Noctua NH-D15 with stock fans and an MSI R9 290. The case is elevated off the ground, placed on a cabinet with no obstructions to intake or exhause beyond the already restrictive front panel and Demciflex filters. For fans i'm using 7 x AP-15 for all intakes and rear exhaust. The blue rectangle in the picture consists of 2 x Bitfenix Spectre Pro LEDs hung from a bracket.

All intake fans are run off a fan controller (NZXT Sentry 3) at 40% when doing day to day tasks but would be ramped up when needed. The Noctuas and rear exhaust are run off the motherboard with the exhaust having a more aggressive fan profile in order to exhaust out warm air at a higher rate. Ambient temps are around 30deg C and cooler intake temps hover around 2-3 degrees higher.

With fans in their lower settings, I get temps about 6-8 degree above ambients for my cpu but when I crank all the fans to their full rpms, i somehow get warmer temps. Could this be because I have insufficient exhausts? Or that warm air is recirculating back into the case?

Also, i'm thinking of ghetto-rigging another fan to the pcie brackets to obtain a "straighter" path of fresh air past the gpu. In your opinion, would this help in any way or would it just be a waste of time?

Kindest Regards,
Ali


----------



## doyll

Hi @cephelix
Looks like a good system.

I think what you are experiencing is what I call ai_rblow,_ not air_flow._

Air_flow_ is cool air moving into case to coolers and their heated exhaust moving on out of case without contaminating the cool airflow.
Air_blow_ is air moving everywhere mixing heated and cool air and raising temps.
Think of the case as a tub full of water. We want cool water flowing in at one end of tub and the warmed water moving out the other end .. not a jacuzzi mixing it all up.

My suggestions are:
For intakes 2x front, 1x bottom & 1x top should be plenty. Remove all unused PCIe back covers and anything else you can to improve front to back airflow. We want the GPU exhaust to move back and out of case .. out the side if there is a vent directly over or slightly above it sometimes works well. It is often a lot of trial and error experimentation finding the best combination.


----------



## cephelix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Hi @cephelix
> Looks like a good system.
> 
> I think what you are experiencing is what I call ai_rblow,_ not air_flow._
> 
> Air_flow_ is cool air moving into case to coolers and their heated exhaust moving on out of case without contaminating the cool airflow.
> Air_blow_ is air moving everywhere mixing heated and cool air and raising temps.
> Think of the case as a tub full of water. We want cool water flowing in at one end of tub and the warmed water moving out the other end .. not a jacuzzi mixing it all up.
> 
> My suggestions are:
> For intakes 2x front, 1x bottom & 1x top should be plenty. Remove all unused PCIe back covers and anything else you can to improve front to back airflow. We want the GPU exhaust to move back and out of case .. out the side if there is a vent directly over or slightly above it sometimes works well. It is often a lot of trial and error experimentation finding the best combination.


Yeah, I think i am experiencing airblow as well...didn't want to use the term since i wasn't sure I'd be using it correctly. I've already removed all unused pcie brackets but i may put them back on since sometimes my nieces and nephews come over and they may be very tempted to put stuff into the slots...The case doesn't have a side vent though. Any thoughts on strapping another exhaust to the free pcie slots?

I would try out your configuration when stressing my comp and see if that makes any difference....


----------



## LostParticle

@cephelix. hello, I peg your pardon but I'd like to tell you my subjective and personal opinion, as well, since it is already hiding inside your post :

Quote:


> Ambient temps are around 30deg C ...


Do not expect much.

Thank you.


----------



## Dwhite311988

Any suggestion on fan setup with the current hardware that I posted? The 980 Hall of Fame exhausts air into the case.


----------



## cephelix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> @cephelix. hello, I peg your pardon but I'd like to tell you my subjective and personal opinion, as well, since it is already hiding inside your post :
> Do not expect much.
> 
> Thank you.


Oh,i know about that...these are just normal operating temps..when i get down to stressing i'll turn the air conditioning on.that brings ambients down to 25 degrees.weird thing is the thermistor on my fan control,which i put about 5cm away from the cooler intake displays 23deg.lol.i may need to adjust the thermistor's position


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cephelix*
> 
> Oh,i know about that...these are just normal operating temps..when i get down to stressing i'll turn the air conditioning on.that brings ambients down to 25 degrees...


Ah, I see, great then!


----------



## cephelix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Ah, I see, great then!


Cross your fingers and wish me well...forgot to mention,if it makes any difference that the cpu sits in the path of the aircon vent as well...


----------



## maddangerous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> *Fractal Design Define R2 modified to 140mm fans, bottom & back grills removed*, front refitted to 140mm fans


Very nice. How much of a restriction is the fan.. "grill" built into pretty much every case? Is there much of an improvement in airflow because of the removal of the restriction, or is there more of a noticeable difference in the sound level of the fans while they are moving air? I am interested in doing this myself to both of my cases, but tbh, I'm a tad nervous about it, and do not know what to use for tools. Or how to go about such a thing.

Any tips for that?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dwhite311988*
> 
> I had recently purchased an Air 540 in Arctic White to do my black/white (mostly white) themed build. I am running an Asus Mark S Sabertooth with the Avexir Sabranco limited edition ram sticks and a Galax GTX 980 Hall of Fame gpu. I know some of that seems irrelevant, but I kind of wanted to give an idea on the theme I have going on here before I ask my questions. I was wondering which black/white fans would be optimal for my case? I am trying to further understand your guides to help choose and set up my fans. Also, I would like a matching cpu cooler that will still allow me to show off my blinking white LED lights on the ram without sacrificing cooling performance? I hear that the mounts for the front intake on the air 540 can slightly restrict the airflow when using two 140mm fans instead of 3 120mm fans. As far as cpu cooler goes, I know there is a Dark Knight II Frostbourne Edition that seems like it may fit well with my theme - http://www.techpowerup.com/180801/xigmatek-dark-knight-frostbourne-edition-cpu-cooler-announced.html. Any suggestions on case fan choice/setup would be greatly appreciated. What is your opinion on the Aerocool Dead Silence case fans? I am also considering the TY-147A fans. I live in the United States, but I don't mind having anything shipped from overseas. Thanks in advance!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry for the delay. Busy weekend chasing bunnies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of this you already know, but here goes.
> 
> Your Mark S Sabertooth has about 50-52mm center CPU toward RAM.
> Avexir Sabranco is 30mm tall
> 
> Cryorig R1 Universal is mostly white and is 48.5mm center CPU to front of 13mm front fan.
> 
> 
> Stock fan clears no problem. Using TY-147 or TY-147A fans or some other white fans would move fan over RAM a little.
> 
> 
> Not many white coolers out there. I'm not impressed with the Dark Night coolers. Have you considered using white light gray spray paint on a cooler? As long as the top is color matched to your system, the fins hardly show. And by spraying at a steep angle the edges get colored when painting the top of cooler without hindering cooling. We just don't want a lot of paint going between the fins, but on the edges it no problem.
> 
> I have never used Aerocool fans so can't really help there. I do use TY-140, TY-143, TY-147 and TY-147A fans and love them all.


I know that these are really more CPU cooler fans, but.. I have Phanteks PH-F140HP and they work great. They're quiet and keep my Phenom II 1090T six core pretty cool when running IBT for 3 hours. I know the CPU cooler comes into play a lot in this though. As case fans.. not sure. I wanted to use them in my case but the design of the mounts in the case are not normal so I could not use them. I'm not trying to step on Doyll's toes or anything, just a suggestion. Maybe he could chime in.

Also, chasing bunnies.. literally?


----------



## Mang Keon

@doyll

Hello, Thanks for taking time to answer our questions.

Question is a bit off topic but involves moving air, so...
I remember you saying that in your experience, for non tower(?) heatsinks, ie C1 you prefer the fan exhausting heat off the heatsink.

My question is, will that work on a PSU? If someone would flip the fan and make it exhaust air instead of intake.

My rig is set up like the front fan exhausts hot air both from inside the case and also somehow exhausts hot air off the back of the psu (exhaust side).My psu is placed at the front side of the case.
Like so--



Might be a different scenario with regards to cpu cooling but anyways, what is the worst thing that could happen if I flipped the psu fan?
I will flip the front fan also to have it as intake. In short, reverse the two fans in question. My current set up shows max temps of 68-71 when benchmarking.

Thank you in advance.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maddangerous*
> 
> Very nice. How much of a restriction is the fan.. "grill" built into pretty much every case? Is there much of an improvement in airflow because of the removal of the restriction, or is there more of a noticeable difference in the sound level of the fans while they are moving air? I am interested in doing this myself to both of my cases, but tbh, I'm a tad nervous about it, and do not know what to use for tools. Or how to go about such a thing.
> 
> Any tips for that?
> 
> I know that these are really more CPU cooler fans, but.. I have Phanteks PH-F140HP and they work great. They're quiet and keep my Phenom II 1090T six core pretty cool when running IBT for 3 hours. I know the CPU cooler comes into play a lot in this though. As case fans.. not sure. I wanted to use them in my case but the design of the mounts in the case are not normal so I could not use them. I'm not trying to step on Doyll's toes or anything, just a suggestion. Maybe he could chime in.
> 
> Also, chasing bunnies.. literally?


Post # 15 has Silverstone and Puget Systems data on how grills affect airflow and noise.

They work fine as case fans .. if you can mount them. I do not have most of the Phanteks fans to test, but by their specs they are all similar. Keep in mind when fans are used in normal applications (case, cooler, radiator) the airflow & pressure ratings are rather ambiguous .. fans with lower CFM but higher mmH2O ratings will often perform better than fans with higher CFM and lower mmH2O ratings. This is because the mmH2O rating means more airflow against resistance because CFM rating is with no resistance .. our use of fans always has resistance.

Code:



Code:


Phanteks 140mm fan comparison

PHANTEKS        PH-F140SP               PH-F140HP PWM           PH-F140XP PWM           PH-F140MP               PH-F140TS
Type            Case & Radiator         Cooler Case & Thermal   Case & Radiator         Radiator    Cooler Case & Thermal
Colors; Frame   Black                   White                   Black                   Black                   White
        Blades  White                   Black White Red Blue    White                   White                   Black White Red Blue
Blade Geometry  9x Blades with MVB      9x Blades with MVB      9x Blades with MVB      7x Blades with MVB2     9x Blades with MVB
LED             N/A or 4 LEDs           N/A                     N/A                     N/A                     N/A     
Bearing         UFB                     UFB                     UFB                     UFB                     UFB

Dimensions      140 x 140 x 25mm        140 x 140 x 25mm        140 x 140 x 25mm        140 x 140 x 25mm        140 x 140 x 25mm
Mount Spacing   124.5mm (140mm fan)     105mm (120mm fan)       124.5mm (140mm fan)     124.5mm (140mm fan)     105mm (120mm fan)

Speed (RPM)     1200 ± 250 rpm          600 - 1300 ± 250 rpm    600-1200 ± 250 rpm      500-1600 ± 250 rpm      1200 ± 250 rpm
Max Airflow     82.1 CFM                40.9 - 88.6 CFM         40.9 - 85.19 CFM        68.1 CFM                78.1 CFM
Pressure        1.33mm H2O              0.39-1.64mm H2O         0.39-1.52mm H2O         1.62 mm H2O             1.21mm H2O
Noise           19 dB (A)               15.22 - 19 dB(A)        15.22 - 19 dB(A)        17-25.3 dB(A)           19 dB(A)
Speed Control   Variable Voltage        PWM                     PWM                     PWM                     Variable Voltage

Input Current   0.14 A                  0.14 A                  0.14 A                  0.2 A                   0.15 A
Rate Voltage    DC 12V                  DC 12V                  DC 12V                  DC 12V                  DC 12V
Input Power     1.8 W                   1.8 W                   1.8 W                   2.4 W                   1.8 W

Data from Phanteks website
http://phanteks.com/products.html#fans                                                                                  by doyll

Sorry, was not actually chasing bunnies.


----------



## doyll

@Mang Keon I'm assuming the PSU intake fan is behind the punched sheetmetal grill in upper left corner of case? Where is it's exhaust vent? Sorry, I'm not familiar with your case, at least I don't recognize it all opened up like it is.









*Phanteks Enthoo Luxe and Pro Bottom Filter Modification so it is One Long Filter That Slides Out the Front*

I hate having to pull case out from under desk to clean the filters. Seems as often as not something gets knocked loose I bang my head, kneel on a tack .. always something. As I was cursing the design engineers and examining the Luxe for more idiot engineers' great ideas I noticed they screwed up and made the track for the filters full length with no stops! And with the front bottom filter removed the PSU filter can slide all the way through and out the front.

Humm.. Checked spacing between filters when installed in case, made a 'spacer' out of something I had the same thickness a filters, then lined up the filters on desk with spacer and taped each side with packaging tape cut to width so it does not cover filter media and now I have one long filter that slides in from the front! Job done! Now I can pull out all the bottom filters from the front, clean and replace without moving the case.









Edit 10/02/15: I noticed the PSU is drawing a little dusty air from behind the filter. I need get the case out and turn it on it's side or over and figure out exactly what the problem is. I'm hoping to only need to add a spacer of about 5mm between the two filters so when it clicks in place from front the PSU filter sets back about 5mm farther back and filters all the air going into PSU.


----------



## Mang Keon

@doyll

It's an sg-05 rotated 90 deg to the left.
That's the PSU's intake beside the big fan (XT-140 on the left).

So Imagine the psu's exhaust behind the front fan. I can only use 15mm front fan.Exhausted air is very warm.


No significant obstruction as far as I know. so the psu exhausts directly in front fan's airflow

Ambient temp is like 20 Celsius- And I get 71 max. Is this acceptable? It's not even summer yet.


----------



## doyll

Wow! The one's I've seen had the PSU over the CPU exhausting out the back. The way you have it setup, either way you have the PSU airflow will have heated exhaust being drawn into intake .. or is the fan over your CPU cooler exhaust with CPU fan pulling air out of cooler?

*Phanteks PWM Fan Hub Review*
(PWM control converted to variable voltage fan hub)
By Tealc

The Phanteks PWM hub is a small device that allows the user to control a number of 3 pin fans using your computer's native CPU PWM control signal, or valid PWM signal you choose to feed into it.



The hub measures approximately 45 x 40 x 15mm so is small enough to be tucked away behind a motherboard. The fans exit around the outside of the hub and this increases the footprint considerably but adds no further height.

The unit can be powered in two ways:-

Via computer PWM header using the standard 1 Amp header.
Via special 2 pin connector and cable assembly to SATA connector for more power.
Both can be connected as they have a shared connection on the PCB. To fully disconnect PWM header power the wires would need to be broken, or terminals pulled.

*How the device operates:*
A PWM signal is taken from the single 4-pin connector and converted to DC power which then feeds each of the six 3-pin headers.

*How it works, the circuit:*
A NPN transistor takes the PWM signal and sends it to a push pull NPN/PNP transistor pair where it is level shifted to a 12v PWM, this in turn feeds into a P-channel Mosfet which handles the switching of the 12v fan load. There is also an inductor and a capacitor on the output which does the smoothing and provides, more or less a DC voltage signal. A Schottky diode sits across the fan load and prevents any significant reverse transient spikes that could potentially destroy the Mosfet. There are a number of other resistors and diodes.

Interestingly there are a number of positions unpopulated, R5 (resistor), C2 (capacitor), D3 (diode), and perhaps most interesting of all on the front are spaces for three resistors and three LEDs. These are wired directly to the 12v source and the resistors are there to limit current. I feel this is an opportunity missed by Phanteks as they really would be better on the fan output and get brighter as output voltage increases.

*The benefits.*

Simple to use. Plug your fans in, provide power and PWM and the fans will adjust according to CPU temperature.
Easy to tuck out of sight.
Can be mounted on the chassis.
Available with some cases fitted and also available in a neat plastic box.
Energy efficient.

*The limitations, drawbacks and potential issues.*
There is no adjustment that can be made to the output directly, all must be done in software, or by changing the fan load to effect a desired speed.

The hub is set up to work with an ideal load, of around 6 or 7 fans, which is around 15W. Too much above or below this load compromises the way the hub operates. With just one fan you will get 9v -12v. At a much higher load you'll get 3v-10.5v for the same duty cycle. See table and graph for detail.



Different fans will run at different speeds depending on their individual characteristic and there is no easy way to get feedback from the hub to the motherboard headers, only the white fan header feeds back.

At higher loads it was noticed that some voltage spikes occurred with the switching of the circuit, this may cause premature failure of the circuitry and produce extra heat. The image below shows a nice smooth trace with 4 fans, then the lower shows some spikes with 11 fans.



The Mosfet package can get very hot when a high load of fans is attached. With a load of 24W and 12 fans the Mosfet was too hot to touch after a few seconds at 50% duty cycle. This may cause premature failure. At low duty cycle the temperature was reduced. It may be possible to heatsink the mosfet, however it is a very small package measuring only 7mm x 5mm.

Without care it will be possible to overload your PWM fan header. Ideally 12v or ground should be disconnected from CPU_Fan lead if using external power source but this is not done automatically.

Not really suitable for 4 pin fans.

No LEDs.

*Testing*

For the purposes of this test I used a collection of 3 pin 12v fans I've accumulated over the years.
I used a Gould OS300 oscilloscope to view output at the fan header.
I used a 555 timer based 22000kHz variable PWM circuit to simulate the PWM.
I also used a linear regulated 12v power supply which outputs a solid 12.3v no matter what load I throw at it.
I measured current using a Mastech MS8268 DMM and voltage using Isotech IDM600 DMM.
I estimated 20%, 50% PWM using the scale on the oscilloscope and actual max PWM is within a 1 or 2% of full 100% PWM.
*Conclusion*
I found the Phanteks PWM hub behaviour just as I'd expect from such a simple device. I was a little disappointed with the heat generated at higher loads but feel that multiple hubs could be employed to get around this issue. The circuit itself wouldn't load down the PWM signal too much so it's likely that 2 or 3 of these things would work just fine. Ideally Phanteks could have used a mosfet on the input, but to keep costs down they went with an NPN transistor.

I'd really like to see a version of this with temperature related LEDs and an adjustment to compensate for the amount of fans.

Hub supplied by doyll
Published layout by doyll


----------



## maddangerous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Post # 15 has Silverstone and Puget Systems data on how grills affect airflow and noise.
> 
> They work fine as case fans .. if you can mount them. I do not have most of the Phanteks fans to test, but by their specs they are all similar. Keep in mind when fans are used in normal applications (case, cooler, radiator) the airflow & pressure ratings are rather ambiguous .. fans with lower CFM but higher mmH2O ratings will often perform better than fans with higher CFM and lower mmH2O ratings. This is because the mmH2O rating means more airflow against resistance because CFM rating is with no resistance .. our use of fans always has resistance.
> 
> Sorry, was not actually chasing bunnies.


Yeah, I'm slowly learning about all that lol. I wish I knew more of the science behind it when I bought the fans for my gaming rig. They perform just fine, I just could have make it quieter lol. No biggie.

In that case, I'd say the phanteks work fine. I'll have to find some texting data, i think there is some on SPCR.

Alas, clearly I did not see post 15. Somehow. I'll give that a read.


----------



## Mang Keon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Wow! The one's I've seen had the PSU over the CPU exhausting out the back. The way you have it setup, either way you have the PSU airflow will have heated exhaust being drawn into intake .. or is the fan over your CPU cooler exhaust with CPU fan pulling air out of cooler?


The fan on cpu is intake--> blows air onto the heatsink, while the side fan intakes air from outside into the case--directly facing the heatsink/fan.
The psu exhaust is in the front with the help of an exhaust 120mm slim fan.

Other exhaust points are the back and the top front-I put a filter mesh on --like this



I guess it's the overclock that's causing the high temps. Maybe I should try delidding my humble G3258.


----------



## doyll

Honestly 72c is not all that bad. What does it max at in normal use:

Have you checked the actual temperature of the cooler intake air? I've seen these pancake / downflow coolers somehow manage to ingest their own heated exhaust even when another fan is blowing air right at them. Might be worth checking just to be sure. Think the thermometer I use is in 2nd or 3rd post.

*PWM Fan Independent Speed Curve*
Fan rpm is not a fixed ration or percentage of PWM signal. The PWM signal to rpm is part of the programming in PWM circuitry in fan.
Here are some examples. Black graph line (top line in chart) is fan rpm; PWM % is shown across bottom of chart. Notice how all of these fans are flat-lining at idle at different minimum PWM% signal. Also notice how their respective PWM% to rpm is not a the same progression for each fan .. it is not a linear progression, but is instead a custom progression that is programmed into each fan's internal PWM circuit.








      

All graphs are from Thermalbench.com fan tests and reviews.


----------



## Mang Keon

Before when it was in an matx case-Max temp when gaming (Dying Light), it's around 59 celsius according to HWiNFO 64 sensors.Now, it's 72 that's the max with benchmarks and games.

Usual tasks like watching movies, browsing etc..is 32-34.

ASUS suite III Mobo utility reports 10 deg less than HWinfo







I can make the temp lower by maxing the fans (via mobo fan tuning)) but the noise will be too much.

Re:
"ingest their own heated exhaust"- I wish I could see a diagram for this.
If I flip the cpu fan to exhaust air, then I will have to do the same to the side fan.No intake fan altogether!









I'm considering another cooler like H5 so that I can have the flow of air in one direction only, keep the exhaust in front and re orient H5 so it's blowing air towards the front too.

Anyways, back to the original question--What happens when a psu fan is flipped? and there is a fan blowing into the exhaust/back of psu.
Is it going to be hotter inside the psu and a much cooler case temp? Thanks doyll for your input.


----------



## Mang Keon

I'll try to check the actual temp of the cooler.I will check your guides.
The only warm part to the touch is the front. I believe the front fan is exhausting heat mainly from the psu and video card

I imagine the intake to be cool.
I live in a cool place.Ground floor with 2 apartments above .
It never gets hot inside the house.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mang Keon*
> 
> Before when it was in an matx case-Max temp when gaming (Dying Light), it's around 59 celsius according to HWiNFO 64 sensors.Now, it's 72 that's the max with benchmarks and games.
> 
> Usual tasks like watching movies, browsing etc..is 32-34.
> 
> ASUS suite III Mobo utility reports 10 deg less than HWinfo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can make the temp lower by maxing the fans (via mobo fan tuning)) but the noise will be too much.
> 
> Re:
> "ingest their own heated exhaust"- I wish I could see a diagram for this.
> If I flip the cpu fan to exhaust air, then I will have to do the same to the side fan.No intake fan altogether!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm considering another cooler like H5 so that I can have the flow of air in one direction only, keep the exhaust in front and re orient H5 so it's blowing air towards the front too.
> 
> Anyways, back to the original question--What happens when a psu fan is flipped? and there is a fan blowing into the exhaust/back of psu.
> Is it going to be hotter inside the psu and a much cooler case temp? Thanks doyll for your input.


Here is a drawing of what can happen with downflow coolers .. and how upflow can solve the problem

Don't let all the pretty arrows take your attention away from what the airflow is doing!








Hard to say if PSU will run hotter or not, but should run at similar temperature.


----------



## Mang Keon

whoa that was fast doyll. Now I understand how it works.

Thanks! I'm gonna do the experiment and report back hopefully soon.

Thanks a bunch!


----------



## Calibos

About 18 months ago I built a mITX in an Antec ISK110 Small Form Factor case utilising the supplied Intel fan for my Haswell i5. Its so crowded in there that I realised straight away that the hot air would deflect nearly straight up off the mobo and surrounding parts and crammed in cabling and likely be re-ingested by the fan. The solution I came up with was to cut some kydex plastic I had and make a small shroud around the fan frame and then a sheet cut to fit the mesh grill with a circular opening through which the fan and mini shroud protrude. Thus the fan can only pull air in from outside the case and no air can be re-ingested by the fan. The positive pressure forces air to exhaust out the side vent across the 90W PSU.



Spoiler: Antec ISK110 Images


----------



## Mang Keon

That's a simple and effective mod Calibos. Ducting.
Thanks for sharing.

I think I'd do something similar and focus the flow from intake side fan to the fan/heatsink.


----------



## doyll

Nicely done @Calibos:thumb:
How much difference did the duct and grill blocking make?
The fan style you have can't be turned over and what you did works too. I've done similar in the past. Sometimes pull/ exhaust works better, sometimes it doesn't.

@Mang Keon
I would try reversing the fans first. Rather easy to do and will probably give you the improvement you need.


----------



## Mang Keon

@doyll

So I did some changes in the layout-
No front fan.PSU is attached via 80 to 120mm adaptor in the front. I put an 80mm fan exhaust
HDDs relocated to upper left side above the side fan-now 120mm default silverstone sg-05 fan.


I put the covers of the case and tested like 30 minutes apart-

Reverse fans/Pull:


Normal/Push:


I guess there was little change from yesterdays temps.

Reversing the fans made it hotter by 4 deg celsius.


----------



## Calibos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Nicely done @Calibos:thumb:
> How much difference did the duct and grill blocking make?
> The fan style you have can't be turned over and what you did works too. I've done similar in the past. Sometimes pull/ exhaust works better, sometimes it doesn't.


About 5/6ºC IIRC. BTW, I wasn't suggesting this as an alternative but as further anecdotal evidence towards your point about heatsinks/fan combo's of this type of form factor possibly having hot air re-ingestion issues when in push mode.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calibos*
> 
> About 5/6ºC IIRC. BTW, I wasn't suggesting this as an alternative but as further anecdotal evidence towards your point about heatsinks/fan combo's of this type of form factor possibly having hot air re-ingestion issues when in push mode.


Well worth the effort.








First one I did it with was an Athlon XP 2300 or something like that. Ended up switching to a 3200 and more RAM. Used it for many years. Was first system I used aftermarket cooler on.









*AIO (Open Loop) & CLC Pump Specifications*

Important Notice:
This is a work in progress. If you have any AIO &/or CLC pump &/or radiator specifications for systems not included please let me know.
Also if you find any errors it is extremely import that you let me know.
Thanks!


----------



## Lucas Lamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Well worth the effort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First one I did it with was an Athlon XP 2300 or something like that. Ended up switching to a 3200 and more RAM. Used it for many years. Was first system I used aftermarket cooler on.


The cooler I used with my Athlon XP 1600+ was an Alpha PAL 8045, which was designed to suck air from the bottom and expel it away from the motherboard. And it mounted *a giant 80mm fan*(!), which blew people's minds at the time. Google "Alpha PAL 8045 review" and you'll see reviewers in awe of the monstrous size of the heatsink. Of course it's tiny by today's standards but in 2001 it was beastly.


----------



## doyll

Had stock, then w/ duct, then CM Aero7+, w/ duct, then Thermalright SP-97 w/ 92mm fan & duct. It was a beast! SP-97 was like 5 or 6c better than Aero7 .. IIRC, and waaayy quieter. SP-97 was first heatpipe cooler I saw .. and used.









*Who Made Your AIO / CLC?*


----------



## cephelix

Well,an update to my situation. I finally zip-tied a 120mm fan (AP-121L) to the unused pcie slots under my gpu. Must say,it barely fits and i would need to put some padding between the fan and the board. Of significant interest is that it brought my gpu core temps under control. With ambients at 26C(air conditioned room) my gpu temps at stock(core clock 977MHz, memory clock 1250MHz), i used to get 77C core temps on load with case temps getting up to 31C quite fast but with my patented airflow system(lol) i can finally OC my gpu(core clock 1100MHz, core voltage +44 in AB) and i still get the same load temps with case temps taking alot longer to reach 30C. Apparently it seems that my gpu has been recycling it's own exhausted air which causes a fast increase in temps.

Do you think i'd get any better temps by switching to a better fan?looking at the noctua ippc unless i start ordering from overseas. And if so, any suggestions for fans??


----------



## PSILVA

Hi, my first post, i have a LianLi PC7 Plus Se2 case with 5 fans (2 front+1 side+1 rear+1 top) controled by a Zalman MCF1 Plus.
The fans are 1 Noctua NF-P12 and 4 Noiseblocker M12-3.

I have 2 front+side intake and rear+top exhaust

Is this the correct distribution?

I have a i5-4690k with a Noctua NH-12u se2 cooler and i want oc de cpu to 4.4 or 4.6.

Thanks


----------



## doyll

Should be okay. As long as your temps are good. If not, you might be able to use your 5.25" front bays as another intake. This would flow cool air directly to your CPU cooler.

*How Heatpipes Work*


----------



## PSILVA

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Should be okay. As long as your temps are good. If not, you might be able to use your 5.25" front bays as another intake. This would flow cool air directly to your CPU cooler.


That is what I did because this case originally only brought one fan in front:thumb:


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PSILVA*
> 
> That is what I did because this case originally only brought one fan in front:thumb:


Have you tried removing the PCIe back slot covers to see if that helps flow air from front to back? I often use an incense stick to see if a vent is drawing air in or pushing air out.


----------



## PSILVA

I bought the ventilated pci black slots from Lian Li.

I think I can not improve more just changing for better box but for now I get this and see how they run temperatures.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PSILVA*
> 
> I bought the ventilated pci black slots from Lian Li.
> 
> I think I can not improve more just changing for better box but for now I get this and see how they run temperatures.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Vented PCI covers will flow half the air the opening flow with no covers.


----------



## lmarklar

I vote sticky for this thread! Amazing compilation of data.


----------



## Calibos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cephelix*
> 
> Well,an update to my situation. I finally zip-tied a 120mm fan (AP-121L) to the unused pcie slots under my gpu. Must say,it barely fits and i would need to put some padding between the fan and the board. Of significant interest is that it brought my gpu core temps under control. With ambients at 26C(air conditioned room) my gpu temps at stock(core clock 977MHz, memory clock 1250MHz), i used to get 77C core temps on load with case temps getting up to 31C quite fast but with my patented airflow system(lol) i can finally OC my gpu(core clock 1100MHz, core voltage +44 in AB) and i still get the same load temps with case temps taking alot longer to reach 30C. Apparently it seems that my gpu has been recycling it's own exhausted air which causes a fast increase in temps.
> 
> Do you think i'd get any better temps by switching to a better fan?looking at the noctua ippc unless i start ordering from overseas. And if so, any suggestions for fans??


I'm sorry but I patented the PCI slot fan idea back in late 2011. You now owe me substantial royalties









http://www.overclock.net/t/1550235/graphics-cards-way-too-hot-even-with-7-case-fans/10#post_23775920


----------



## cephelix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calibos*
> 
> I'm sorry but I patented the PCI slot fan idea back in late 2011. You now owe me substantial royalties
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1550235/graphics-cards-way-too-hot-even-with-7-case-fans/10#post_23775920


Hahaha....then kudos to you sir...in 2011 i was still using an i5 750 in an nzxt tempest evo case and haven't discovered OCN yet









Edit:actually looking at the thread, i got the idea from you!!lol...i didnt believe it at first but i thought what the heck,since then i've swapped out the silverstone fan with a gentle typhoon 1850rpm one and my temps dropped further.now with 26C ambients,load temps are around 70C max


----------



## doyll

On a couple of builds where I removed the stock grills from the cases, I also removed the braces between PCIe back covers. The little strip of mental crates lots of turbulence when air is flowing around it .. which greatly reduces the airflow and creates lots of noise too. Every look at how much snow a picket fence collects on it's downwind side? Just like a snow-fence. Even a wire fence like security fences will cause drifts. This collection of snow is the result of turbulence caused by the wind going around the fence pieces .. slowing down the air speed causes the snow to drop to the ground.

*AIO (Open Loop) & CLC Pump & Radiator Specificatons w/ EK-D5 for Comparison*

All AIOs have rather low L/h flowrates .. almost all CLCs have extremely lousy flowrates. Swiftech is 660 L/h and most CLCs are maybe 40-60 L/h range. Most, inclucing Asetek do not give any pump specifications.

Just for grins, here is a chart of AIO and CLC pumps I put together .. with bottom pump between blue lines being EK-D5 PWM G2, EK-D5 series is very popular custom loop pump .. possible the most popular and most used in custom loops. You can see it flows many times as much coolant and as much more lift (pressure) than CLC and AIO pumps, even Swiftech.











Here is EK-D5 PWM G2 P/Q (mbar / L/h) graph



You can see how D5 motor uses many times more wattage than CLC pumps
CLCs are rated *0.175-0.4 watts*
AIO s are rated 0.27-0.5 watts
D5 is rated *23 watts*
That is *32 - 131 times more power* than CLC pumps ratings are .. and *flowing 16- 37 times more coolant* at full speed.


----------



## cephelix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> On a couple of builds where I removed the stock grills from the cases, I also removed the braces between PCIe back covers. The little strip of mental crates lots of turbulence when air is flowing around it .. which greatly reduces the airflow and creates lots of noise too. Every look at how much snow a picket fence collects on it's downwind side? Just like a snow-fence. Even a wire fence like security fences will cause drifts. This collection of snow is the result of turbulence caused by the wind going around the fence pieces .. slowing down the air speed causes the snow to drop to the ground.


That would be the best case senario i suppose.one where there is very little restriction to airflow.if i were to mod my case, i'll be sure to keep that in mind


----------



## Calibos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> On a couple of builds where I removed the stock grills from the cases, I also removed the braces between PCIe back covers. The little strip of mental crates lots of turbulence when air is flowing around it .. which greatly reduces the airflow and creates lots of noise too. Every look at how much snow a picket fence collects on it's downwind side? Just like a snow-fence. Even a wire fence like security fences will cause drifts. This collection of snow is the result of turbulence caused by the wind going around the fence pieces .. slowing down the air speed causes the snow to drop to the ground.


Grilles can really increase the decibel level alright. Had a 200mm at the front of that Corsair 600T. Lots of owners cut out the mesh grille but I didn't want to do that. Instead I mounted the fan on stand off bolts putting 1cm between the fan and the grille. Ran a strip of plastic around the 1cm gap. Turbulence and noise problem solved without hacking the case.


----------



## doyll

Quote:Originally Posted by *Calibos* 

Grilles can really increase the decibel level alright. Had a 200mm at the front of that Corsair 600T. Lots of owners cut out the mesh grille but I didn't want to do that. Instead I mounted the fan on stand off bolts putting 1cm between the fan and the grille. Ran a strip of plastic around the 1cm gap. Turbulence and noise problem solved without hacking the case.

Indeed.
Free space on both sides of fans makes a huge difference in noise .. be it the fan interacting with grill, HDD cage. filter, and etc. Generally speaking the less restrictive the grill and / or filter is, the quieter the airflow and fan will be. Silverstone and Puget Systems both have done good articles about grill noise and airflow.. Both are in my "Ways to Better Cooling" thread.


----------



## henkkaap

I am planning to cut out all the mesh of my Obsidian 650D and buying a couple of new case fans.
I prefer cooling over noise, however, the fans must still be somewhat quiet.
I was thinking about the Thermalright TY-147, Thermalright TY-143, Bitfenix Spectre Pro or Cooler Master Megaflow.
Which one has te highest CFM/dB? And how do they stand against the new Noctua fans, should I consider them?
And what about the new Phanteks PH-F140HP?


----------



## doyll

Thermalright TY-147 (600-1300rpm) & TY-143 (670-2500rpm) at same speed move as same amount of air at same noise level as NNF-A14 & NF-A15 fans. The new TY-147A (300-1300rpm) is same as TY-147 with a different PWM to RPM curve.

Here
TY-143 can be found for £6.99
TY-147A can be found for £4.91
making a fan comparable to Noctua a faction of the price of Noctua.


----------



## henkkaap

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Thermalright TY-147 (600-1300rpm) & TY-143 (670-2500rpm) at same speed move as same amount of air at same noise level as NNF-A14 & NF-A15 fans. The new TY-147A (300-1300rpm) is same as TY-147 with a different PWM to RPM curve.
> 
> Here
> TY-143 can be found for £6.99
> TY-147A can be found for £4.91
> making a fan comparable to Noctua a faction of the price of Noctua.


Alright, so the Noctuas are out of question haha.
What about the larger fans? (Spectre pro 230 mm and the Megaflow 200mm)
Larger fans mean higher CFM with lower RPM right?


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *henkkaap*
> 
> Alright, so the Noctuas are out of question haha.
> What about the larger fans? (Spectre pro 230 mm and the Megaflow 200mm)
> Larger fans mean higher CFM with lower RPM right?


Yes, but also at a lower static pressure, he wrote about that somewhere in the thread, all the CFM in the world wont help if its being 99% deflected or blocked by a grill/filter


----------



## Mike The Owl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *henkkaap*
> 
> Alright, so the Noctuas are out of question haha.
> What about the larger fans? (Spectre pro 230 mm and the Megaflow 200mm)
> Larger fans mean higher CFM with lower RPM right?


I use five 200mm megaflows in my case, one on the front bottom as input, one on side cover As input, two mounted internally to push air through case and one on the top of case As an exhaust, I have a H80i that is mounted as an exhaust I have two 50mm fans on the VRMs as well as a fan on the rear of the Mobo. I use other fans to cool the northbridge and southbridge..


----------



## henkkaap

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Yes, but also at a lower static pressure, he wrote about that somewhere in the thread, all the CFM in the world wont help if its being 99% deflected or blocked by a grill/filter


I plan on cutting away all the mesh and removing the hdd bays. Okay, so I need fans with high cfm and static pressure at low rpm (less dB). Which fan do you recommend?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *henkkaap*
> 
> Alright, so the Noctuas are out of question haha.
> What about the larger fans? (Spectre pro 230 mm and the Megaflow 200mm)
> Larger fans mean higher CFM with lower RPM right?


At present I don't know of any good 200mm fans Check out post number 11 for an explanation of how cfm and mmH2O work together. Also post number 15 for how filters and grills affect airflow.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Yes, but also at a lower static pressure, he wrote about that somewhere in the thread, all the CFM in the world wont help if its being 99% deflected or blocked by a grill/filter


Like Axaion said, look at the list in first post of thread, many of the questions people ask are answered in other posts in this thread.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mike The Owl*
> 
> I use five 200mm megaflops in my case, one on the front bottom as input, one on side cover As input, two mounted internally to push air through case and one on the top of case As an exhaust, I have a H80i that is mounted asan exhaust I have two 50mm fans on the VRMs as well as a fan on the rear of the Mobo. I use other fans to cool the northbridge and south ridge.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *henkkaap*
> 
> I plan on cutting away all the mesh and removing the hdd bays. Okay, so I need fans with high cfm and static pressure at low rpm (less dB). Which fan do you recommend?
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it obvious? Thermalright TY-147A.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ]
Click to expand...

Sounds more like a case of air_blow_, rather than good air_flow_ to me








Lots of fans blowing air around does not necessarily mean proper airflow .. getting cool air to component and removing their heated exhaust from case.


----------



## Mike The Owl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> At present I don't know of any good 200mm fans Check out post number 11 for an explanation of how cfm and mmH2O work together. Also post number 15 for how filters and grills affect airflow.
> Like Axaion said, look at the list in first post of thread, many of the questions people ask are answered in other posts in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds more like a case of air_blow_, rather than good air_flow_ to me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of fans blowing air around does not necessarily mean proper airflow .. getting cool air to component and removing their heated exhaust from case.


I use plumbers smoke matches to view the airflow, I found that the fans on the VRMs were causing a dead spot so I removed the I/O guard and mounted a fan there,




I also cut out the rear grill where the H80i is mounted, then checked where the smoke flowed to get the optimum flow,


----------



## doyll

Isn't it obvious? Thermalright TY-147A.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *henkkaap*
> 
> I plan on cutting away all the mesh and removing the hdd bays. Okay, so I need fans with high cfm and static pressure at low rpm (less dB). Which fan do you recommend?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mike The Owl*
> 
> I use plumbers smoke matches to view the airflow, I found that the fans on the VRMs were causing a dead spot so I removed the I/O guard and mounted a fan there,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also cut out the rear grill where the H80i is mounted, then checked where the smoke flowed to get the optimum flow,


You have found many of the same things I have.









I almost always leave out the I/O panel, and use incense sticks to check airflow.


----------



## henkkaap

I'll use nylon dustfilters with no grills, cut away all mesh and remove hdd cages ?. I did a bit of research and found the Gentle Typhoon AP-15. They have high static pressure and a low noise level. However, it was discontinued... I calculated the noise level I would get: gpu is 45dB, CPU cooler is 35 dB and with 3 fans I would like tot get a total of about 46 dB (3dB increase is double the noise). This means that the noise at highest rpm must be at or below 35 dB per case fan. The TY-147 is 21 DB and the 143 is 45 DB, is there a TY wich has around 35 DB at its highest rpm? ?

Edit: 147A is not available here ;(


----------



## Mike The Owl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You have found many of the same things I have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I almost always leave out the I/O panel, and use incense sticks to check airflow.


Try these, I'm not sure what they call them in the USA but we use them in Blighty for testing gas fires.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/smoke-matches-tub-of-75/64177

£2.99 for 75, and they Burn for about 20 seconds and give a good visible smoke.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mike The Owl*
> 
> Try these, I'm not sure what they call them in the USA but we use them in Blighty for testing gas fires.
> 
> http://www.screwfix.com/p/smoke-matches-tub-of-75/64177
> 
> £2.99 for 75, and they Burn for about 20 seconds and give a good visible smoke.


LOL. I'm in Devon. Will give them a try. Hopefully they won't smoke me out of the house.








Thanks!


----------



## Mike The Owl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> LOL. I'm in Devon. Will give them a try. Hopefully they won't smoke me out of the house.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!


I realised you are a Brit like me but for our brothers across the pond I added the USA bit, you need to move north it's easier to overclock up here (It's always bloody cold!)


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *henkkaap*
> 
> I plan on cutting away all the mesh and removing the hdd bays. Okay, so I need fans with high cfm and static pressure at low rpm (less dB). Which fan do you recommend?


Ty-147/ Ty-147A , for bang4buck imo

Phanteks/Cougar/Noctua for similar performance for more money

I find the Ty-14x series are super quiet around 800-900RPM while still pushing decent air


----------



## doyll

i7 920 @ 3.55GHz under PH-TC14PE w/ TY-14x fans idle was as low as I wanted, but I kept it at 700rpm to keep motherboard cool. Under full load all cores rendering videos with Handbrake in 23c room it would run 45-55c @ 950-1050rpm. If I really listened hard I think I could hear the fans / air noise at about 1000rpm at a little over a meter away. Case was next to my legs under desk.


----------



## henkkaap

@Axaion @doyll

I plan on putting one fan at the front (low) and one at the back (low) of my Obsidian 650D.
I 'll also remove the front mesh and back pcie slots (placing nylon dust filter on the intake).
So cool air gets supplied to the GPU and hot air gets exhausted.
And I'll make 2 compartiments in my case, one for the CPU (upper part) and one for the GPU (lower part).

- So I need fans with both high static pressure and high airflow, so the P Q curve would perfectly be higher than all other fans, starting from the top left (highest static pressure) and ending at the bottom right (highest cfm), while also maintaining the 'highest' in the middle.
















- Also, the fans must be between 35 and 40 dB at highest load, this is because my GPU is 45.7 dB and the CPU cooler 32.1 dB, so the total (+ 3 fans) = around 48 dB (almost no audible difference between this and the GPU, which is the loudest part of my PC)

So which fan meets all requirements?









I came up with the Enermax Cluster Advance, Akasa Apache Black and the Phanteks PH-F140SP, but don't know which one is the best and if there are better fans for my purpose..

I searched for P Q curves, temperature and noise levels of 140 mm fans, but couldn't find very good roundup....


----------



## doyll

It is hard to find good data on fans. If you've read this thread, you know I'm using both F140xx series and TY-14x series fans. and find both to be good. For me, the key to good quiet case airflow is having the case fans automatically speed controlled in sequence with the CPU cooler and GPU cooler fans .. so when CPU fans speed up so do the case fans supplying and removing it's air .. and same for GPU air. Normally this is accomplished using PWM signals to PWM splitter hubs and or Phanteks PWM controlled variable voltage fan hubs.

It is explained in post number 04 in this thread.


----------



## henkkaap

Will do! Thanks!








But I can't do that with no fans








Think I'll go with the Akasa Apache 140mm ones, but I'll do some more research

Edit: The EK-Furious Vardar FF5-120's (3000rpm) are amazing,
think I'll get a couple of those!


----------



## Internet Swag

Good thread


----------



## LostParticle

Hello @doyll

I've prepared a simple Excel sheet to help me realize if I have positive or negative pressure inside my chassis. I know that it is not 100% accurate but can you please have a look and tell me your opinion?

Here are two examples, one of positive and one of negative case air pressure:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








- Does the mesh/filter resistance apply to the fans that I have on my AIO, as well? Is it correct that I have calculated that 30% loss on them, as well?

My system is fully shown on my signature.

Thank you.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Hello @doyll
> 
> I've prepared a simple Excel sheet to help me realize if I have positive or negative pressure inside my chassis. I know that it is not 100% accurate but can you please have a look and tell me your opinion?
> 
> Here are two examples, one of positive and one of negative case air pressure:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Does the mesh/filter resistance apply to the fans that I have on my AIO, as well? Is it correct that I have calculated that 30% loss on them, as well?
> 
> My system is fully shown on my signature.
> 
> Thank you.


Calculations look very close. Best way to know for sure is with system running at speed use something like an incense stick's smoke to see if there is any openings that will draw it in or if all push it away.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Calculations look very close. Best way to know for sure is with system running at speed use something like an incense stick's smoke to see if there is any openings that will draw it in or if all push it away.


Okay, thanks, I might try that but with some thin piece of paper.

Can you please answer my other question, as well? How much percentage should I subtract from my AIO's fans due to my radiator? A 30% max from each one?

Thank you.

PS: so, you mean that my calculations are generally correct?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Okay, thanks, I might try that but with some thin piece of paper.
> 
> Can you please answer my other question, as well? How much percentage should I subtract from my AIO's fans due to my radiator? A 30% max from each one?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> PS: so, you mean that my calculations are generally correct?


Your calculations appear to be about right. The problem is we do not know that the calculation will be born out in application.








Making guesses at how much will be lost and using those guesses for calculations is still guessing .. which is why I suggested testing to see if it actually produces positive or negative airflow. Smoke or a candle flame are usually more sensitive to air movement than paper.


----------



## simonx123

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> i7 920 @ 3.55GHz under PH-TC14PE w/ TY-14x fans idle was as low as I wanted, but I kept it at 700rpm to keep motherboard cool. Under full load all cores rendering videos with Handbrake in 23c room it would run 45-55c @ 950-1050rpm. If I really listened hard I think I could hear the fans / air noise at about 1000rpm at a little over a meter away. Case was next to my legs under desk.


Hello Doyll,
I have been reading a lot of your posts everywhere and learned a lot!








I am about to start a new thread but I saw that you are using the same air-cooler; and since you got so much experience, I thought you might be able to help me out here instead.
As you can see in my sig, my problem is my temp. I know that somewhat 85c is "acceptable" on Haswell-E, however, it worries me a little (especially when reading all these great stories about Phanteks). At my current 4.4Ghz, my max temps peaks @ 86 on the hottest 2 cores. I can push my OC to 4.5 but temps are rising quickly to 92+c. I reapplied TIM several times without significant changes. RMA'd the cooler and got a new one - SAME thing.
I was wondering if I hit the wall using AIR cooler or it is something else. Is Ph-TC14PE not good enough for my build? Would you recommend to buy and install more fans, or should I save that money and go ahead and replace the Phanteks with AIO Water (Karken x61 or similar)? I rather AIR though...
My full specs are in my signature.

Thank you in advance!


----------



## doyll

@simonx123
The first thing I would do is set up a thermometer to monitor what your cooler intake air temperature is. 2nd post in this thread shows what I use.

I'm not sure how good the stock R5 fans are. I know the Define R4 fans were not up to the task of hi-performance airflow. Several users here have optimized their Define case airflow.
Here is one
http://www.overclock.net/t/1560813/best-fan-config-to-keep-r4-quiet/0_20

X61 is little if any better than TC14PE, maybe 2c .. but it is about 4 times as loud .. 65dBA compared to 45dBA.









In my opinion the only AIOs worth getting are Swiftech or a packaged loop you assemble and fill yourself.

Let's figure out what your cooler intake air temp is under heavy load. My guess is it's quite a bit warmer than the room.


----------



## maddangerous

Hey Doyll, how familiar are you with the fractal design node 804? I've an idea to run by you.


----------



## doyll

I have no personal experience with the Node 804, but from what I've read it seems to be a good case.


----------



## maddangerous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I have no personal experience with the Node 804, but from what I've read it seems to be a good case.


Ah ok. Well, I have been considering getting a CPU cooler that blows down on the CPU instead of the traditional tower cooler (just picked up an I7), I was thinking of trying to find a clear (very clear) duct of some nature, to run from a fan at the top right of the case ceiling, and to put air directly to the CPU cooler from outside the case. It might interfere with ram, but I could take my heatspreader tops off of the Trident X.

I was curious about how that would impact airflow to the rest of the system, and thought you would be the best one to ask for thoughts. If I kept a fan in the front of the case on the bottom, the GTX 970 would probably impede airflow to the top exhaust out of the back, and I would have to get a slim fan in order to fit behind the card.. If I kept a fan in the top of the front, the air duct would impede airflow, and possibly create more noise. Although, the CPU cooler would have its own supply of fresh air, that would then blow onto surrounding components, which would still be an intake.

Thoughts?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maddangerous*
> 
> Ah ok. Well, I have been considering getting a CPU cooler that blows down on the CPU instead of the traditional tower cooler (just picked up an I7), I was thinking of trying to find a clear (very clear) duct of some nature, to run from a fan at the top right of the case ceiling, and to put air directly to the CPU cooler from outside the case. It might interfere with ram, but I could take my heatspreader tops off of the Trident X.
> 
> I was curious about how that would impact airflow to the rest of the system, and thought you would be the best one to ask for thoughts. If I kept a fan in the front of the case on the bottom, the GTX 970 would probably impede airflow to the top exhaust out of the back, and I would have to get a slim fan in order to fit behind the card.. If I kept a fan in the top of the front, the air duct would impede airflow, and possibly create more noise. Although, the CPU cooler would have its own supply of fresh air, that would then blow onto surrounding components, which would still be an intake.
> 
> Thoughts?


Have you looked at posts here related to your build? I'm not a fan of downflow / pancake CPU coolers. They make it near impossible to remove their heated exhaust without it mixing and heating up their cool intake air (see post #9). They are as bad as GPU coolers.









Something to keep in mind here. Everything in the system effects the system's airflow. Even the placement of the case in the room often makes a difference.


----------



## maddangerous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Have you looked at posts here related to your build? I'm not a fan of downflow / pancake CPU coolers. They make it near impossible to remove their heated exhaust without it mixing and heating up their cool intake air (see post #9). They are as bad as GPU coolers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something to keep in mind here. Everything in the system effects the system's airflow. Even the placement of the case in the room often makes a difference.


I have not looked no, I haven't had too much time to lately.

On the air mixing, I was hoping to solve that work the air tunnel to provide unmixed fresh air. As for case placement, I have it up on my desk just to my left. I have small critters for pets, and the looove wires so..


----------



## Klocek001

hi @doyll would you suggest a good high rpm fan to replace the original one my macho 120

I was thinking of this one




but maybe you might provide a better alternative. And I'm probably gonna change the thermal paste, any suggestions or should I just buy the standard mx-4 ?
And the fan I'm looking for is only gonna run at full speed during stability testing, like p95, so don't worry about suggesting any 35dB ones








after that I'm gonna run it on 7v adapter.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> hi @doyll would you suggest a good high rpm fan to replace the original one my macho 120
> 
> I was thinking of this one
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but maybe you might provide a better alternative. And I'm probably gonna change the thermal paste, any suggestions or should I just buy the standard mx-4 ?
> And the fan I'm looking for is only gonna run at full speed during stability testing, like p95, so don't worry about suggesting any 35dB ones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> after that I'm gonna run it on 7v adapter.


While not too loud in sound pressure it has a nasty whine I find unacceptable.

I would suggest something like the Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm PWM or 2150rpm PWM









EK Vardar F3-120 or F4-120
EKWB Vardar F3-120 fan
EK Vardar F4-120ER 120mm fan

Versus E-Loop B12-4





Also, make sure your case airflow is moving the added airflow of cooler at high speed, or your case air temp / cooler intake air temp will go up when it speeds up thus compromising the increased cooling.


----------



## Klocek001

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> While not too loud in sound pressure it has a nasty whine I find unacceptable.
> 
> I would suggest something like the Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm PWM or 2150rpm PWM
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4thL33rPlfY#t=292
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uxBd48C9hMg#t=347
> 
> EK Vardar F3-120 or F4-120
> http://thermalbench.com/2015/02/11/ekwb-vardar-f3-120-fan/
> http://thermalbench.com/2015/06/29/ek-vardar-f4-120er-120mm-fan/
> 
> Versus E-Loop B12-4
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-ILC81Bh5Eg#t=252
> 
> Also, make sure your case airflow is moving the added airflow of cooler at high speed, or your case air temp / cooler intake air temp will go up when it speeds up thus compromising the increased cooling.


I've got Zalman H1, 1 rear exhaust and 2 top exhausts. I suppose it's enough.
Neither Genthle Typhoon nor Vardar are now available in PL from what I see. I like the looks of this one
http://allegro.pl/enermax-t-b-vegas-single-uctvs12p-w-120mm-14-d-i5506030456.html
It'll look swell in my case, is this any improvement over my stock thermalright 120 fan?


----------



## doyll

If you want lots of airflow and keep your case cool something like the Scythe Ultra Kaze 120mm,3000rpm
http://aab.com.pl/pl/p/Scythe-Ultra-Kaze-120mm%2C3000rpm/2177

Maybe the Scythe Grand Flex PWM?
Fan Speed: 600 ± 250 rpm ~ 2.400 rpm ± 10%
Noise Level: 13,5 ~ 39,5 dBA
Air Flow: 24,2 ~ 96,8 CFM / 41,1 ~ 164,4 m³/h
Static Pressure: 0,28 ~ 4,55 mmH²O / 2,75 ~ 44,62 Pa
https://www.alternate.pl/Scythe/Grand-Flex-PWM-2400rpm/html/product/1095344?tk=7&lk=5294

Two things to be careful about.
Make sure the fan you choose is open between the mounting holes so your fan clip will fit.
Make sure if the fan is more than 0.9A you use a PWM splitter with 12v power connecter that connects to PSU cables.

Another possibility might be to use a 140mm fan like the TY-143. It's a monster at high speed but very quiet at below 12-1300rpm. I thing it will set on the corners of your Macho 120 and with a little tweaking your fan clips will work.
L152 mm x H140 mm x W26.5 mm
Fan Weight : 170g
Fan Speed : 600 - 2500 rpm (PWM)
Sound Level : 21 - 45 dB(A)
Airflow : 31.4 - 130.0 CFM
https://www.alternate.pl/Thermalright/TY-143/html/product/1190858?event=search


Why are you looking at such high speed fans?


----------



## Klocek001

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Why are you looking at such high speed fans?


just for p95 testing, under gaming load I might put the back stock fan or this one just cause it looks cool (I think still it has better specs than the stock fan on tr macho 120 so that's even better)
http://allegro.pl/enermax-t-b-vegas-single-uctvs12p-w-120mm-14-d-i5506030456.html


----------



## doyll

I only use Prime for othere's comparisons. For my own I use my most CPU intensive software. Handbrake is a super power hog and with the right (or wrong) setting can put CPU at 100% all cores / threads. TV series I like to keep often get ripped from DVD or live downloads and filed for later use, so Handbrake is my go-to stress test.
Notice how rapidly the temperature stabilizes when load increases as well as when load drops back to idle. This is an example of how keeping the heated exhaust seperate from the cool intake air works. Taking 10 or 15 minutes to reach maximum temperature is a sure sign of either rising cooler intake air temp. Now if it temperature just keeps rising it can be the cooler just doesn't have enough cooling ability, but 9 times out of 10 it's air temp rising.


----------



## Klocek001

is that a remark to me? what ?


----------



## doyll

That "remark" was just general information for anyone who is interested. Best stress testing is with whatever software puts the most load on individuals' systems. Very few people are using prime 95 for it's intended function .. finding new Mersenne prime numbers









The graphs just show how rapidly CPU (and GPU) temps will change with little creeping up or down in a well setup system .. and why.


----------



## Klocek001

what full/mid tower case would you recommend for my rig ? I'm mostly concerned about my GPU/CPU temps in games, both reach 70-75 in Witcher 3. I prefer one with side intake so it could blow directly on my 980ti's heatpipes and backplate, they tend to get hot in MSI 6G Gaming.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> what full/mid tower case would you recommend for my rig ? I'm mostly concerned about my GPU/CPU temps in games, both reach 70-75 in Witcher 3. I prefer one with side intake so it could blow directly on my 980ti's heatpipes and backplate, they tend to get hot in MSI 6G Gaming.


I this for your sig rig?
What is your budget?


----------



## Klocek001

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I this for your sig rig?
> What is your budget?


yeah, for my sig rig. my budget - around what phantom 410/ corsair 500r cost in PL.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> yeah, for my sig rig. my budget - around what phantom 410/ corsair 500r cost in PL.


I need full disclosure here.







what does Phantom cost in PL and what online sites would you buy from?


----------



## Klocek001

let's just say $150 max


----------



## doyll

Phanteks Enthoo Pro, Enthoo Pro M, Enthoo Luxe (love mine), Evolv ATX( planning to get5 one) pretty much in that order from just over $110 to $160
Fractal Design Arc and Define cases are also very good


----------



## Ruok2bu

What's the best way to remove thermal paste? I'm getting my SilverStone HE01 in a few days and i dont know the (safe) way to remove the Intel thermal paste.

P.S. I'll wear my anti-static bracelet too.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ruok2bu*
> 
> What's the best way to remove thermal paste? I'm getting my SilverStone HE01 in a few days and i dont know the (safe) way to remove the Intel thermal paste.
> 
> P.S. I'll wear my anti-static bracelet too.


Isopropyl alcohol is cheap, safe, easy to get and does a great job.
Not rubbing alcohol, put pure isopropyl alcohol. Same as medical alcohol but not "medical" certified.
Use it with paper towel cut into squares about 50x50mm.
Reason for this is TIM has a habit of getting onto everything within a meter of where it was / is applied .. sometimes even farther away. |Using small squares and putting them immediately in the trash makes it much harder for the TIM to jump to other places.
Wipe TIM off and put towel in the bin. I often fold towel twice into a 25x26mm square and apply a little alcohol to it.

Occasionally with really stubborn TIM I will use acetone or ethyl acetate can be used carefully. I say carefully because it eats plastics. Acetone and ethyl acetate are the primary ingredient in fingernail polish remover.

If TIM is still nice and soft and you are re-applying same kind of TIM, I just wipe surfaces clean and re-apply. There is no need to clean with anything else. This is what purists call "TIMming" .. same principle as tinning surfaces before soldering. It can help the even flow of TIM and hopefully give a better seat.

Any questions, just ask.


----------



## Ruok2bu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Isopropyl alcohol is cheap, safe, easy to get and does a great job.
> Not rubbing alcohol, put pure isopropyl alcohol. Same as medical alcohol but not "medical" certified.
> Use it with paper towel cut into squares about 50x50mm.
> Reason for this is TIM has a habit of getting onto everything within a meter of where it was / is applied .. sometimes even farther away. |Using small squares and putting them immediately in the trash makes it much harder for the TIM to jump to other places.
> Wipe TIM off and put towel in the bin. I often fold towel twice into a 25x26mm square and apply a little alcohol to it.
> 
> Occasionally with really stubborn TIM I will use acetone or ethyl acetate can be used carefully. I say carefully because it eats plastics. Acetone and ethyl acetate are the primary ingredient in fingernail polish remover.
> 
> If TIM is still nice and soft and you are re-applying same kind of TIM, I just wipe surfaces clean and re-apply. There is no need to clean with anything else. This is what purists call "TIMming" .. same principle as tinning surfaces before soldering. It can help the even flow of TIM and hopefully give a better seat.
> 
> Any questions, just ask.


Wouldn't using Q-Tips (Cotton Swab on Stick) be safer to use? Also, ty for the info


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ruok2bu*
> 
> Wouldn't using Q-Tips (Cotton Swab on Stick) be safer to use? Also, ty for the info


Q-Tips are too small. They won't pick up enough and end up smearing it around making exciting it so it jumps on more things.







Experiment for yourself with some small squares of paper towel and Q-Tips. Use the one that works best for you. I'm sure it will be the paper towel squares.


----------



## maddangerous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ruok2bu*
> 
> Wouldn't using Q-Tips (Cotton Swab on Stick) be safer to use? Also, ty for the info


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Q-Tips are too small. The won't pick up enough and end up smearing it around making exciting it so it jumps on more things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experiment for yourself with some small squares of paper towel and Q-Tips. Use the one that works best for you. I'm sure it will be the paper towel squares.


Just to throw it out there, I have been using a microfiber cloth with no issues.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maddangerous*
> 
> Just to throw it out there, I have been using a microfiber cloth with no issues.


No reason why it shouldn't work, but is a little on the expensive side.
The reason I use small squares of paper towel is to throw away each wipe so none of the TIM gets on other things. TIM has the nasty habit of somehow ending up with little bit of it on most everything in sight. .. or maybe I'm just a klutz.. Whichever, the little squares of paper towel solved my messiness.


----------



## maddangerous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> No reason why it shouldn't work, but is a little on the expensive side.
> The reason I use small squares of paper towel is to throw away each wipe so none of the TIM gets on other things. TIM has the nasty habit of somehow ending up with little bit of it on most everything in sight. .. or maybe I'm just a klutz.. Whichever, the little squares of paper towel solved my messiness.


oh no, I get TIM everywhere too, you aren't alone lmao.

I have glasses, and never use the microfiber cloths so I have a bunch laying around


----------



## Ruok2bu

I finally received my heatsink and i got it installed. Using the safer isopropyl alcohol (70%), i got off all of the thermal paste! Here's what it looked like:



I'm still running benchmarks to see the temperatures and i'll post my results in my thread.


----------



## doyll

Looks good to me.








I'm guessing the 70% is "rubbing alcohol" and has a little oil in it. Not a big deal, I just prefer pure alcohol.


----------



## diatribe

Agreed, you should look for the 90% alcohol at you Pharmacy.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *diatribe*
> 
> Agreed, you should look for the 90% alcohol at you Pharmacy.


Paint and hardware stores are usually better sources than pharmacy for pure alcohol (99%).


----------



## Klocek001

hey doyll do you by any chance have links to any case temps tests ? like several cases compared in terms on their impact on GPU temps ?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> hey doyll do you by any chance have links to any case temps tests ? like several cases compared in terms on their impact on GPU temps ?


Sorry, but no I do not. I'm not rich enough to have any of the new super heat producing GPUs or a supply of cases to test them in. Would be nice to see this sort of testing with both stock case fans and reference fans.


----------



## Klocek001

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, but no I do not. I'm not rich enough to have any of the new super heat producing GPUs or a supply of cases to test them in. Would be nice to see this sort of testing with both stock case fans and reference fans.


I'm sure any card can be used. Even 8800GTX. As long as it's hot.


----------



## miklkit

You would be surprised. I had a 280X and nice cool air going to the CPU cooler. I then upgraded to a 290X and the longer heat sink on it meant that heated exhaust air was being blown up and out the front of the card and getting into the CPU cooler intake air stream.

My case had Arctic Cooling F12s running at 100% all the time. I first installed a Silverstone FM121 rated at 110cfm (probably more like 50cfm in the front top spot behind a foam filter) and it had no effect. Moving that monster down to the bottom slot fixed the problem and everything is running cool again. And this is with a good flowing case. A stock case would have problems keeping things cool.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> I'm sure any card can be used. Even 8800GTX. As long as it's hot.


8800 GTX is 185w TDP, R9 290 is 275w TDP, 980ti is 275w TDP, GTX 690 is 300w TDP, and my ASUS GTX580 DirectCU II is 243w TDP. But it has a modified cooler directing exhaust back and out of case.

What miklkit said pretty well sums it up.









To do an airflow and heat study of different cases and GPU would require hundreds of tests in different combinations to just scratch the surface of applications we, the consumer, have our systems setup.

Different cases, case fans, coolers, GPUs GPU placement GPU cooler exhaust airflow pattern, fan speeds/flow rates, etc all affect the paths the air flow on it's way though the case. All effect how the components heated exhaust flows out of case a well as how cool intake air flows to the components,. especially GPU & CPU.


----------



## GHADthc

Thought you mite get a kick out of this Doyll, think I mite of taken a bit too much inspiration from you...










When the system is idling, it has made a noticeable difference, the fans on this Deepcool Assassin 2 are quiet (but sadly don't move much air when the CPU ramps up).

It's too bad the 290X has a stock cooler though...don't want to get a heatsink for it, because I intent to put everything under water eventually.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Thought you mite get a kick out of this Doyll, think I mite of taken a bit too much inspiration from you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the system is idling, it has made a noticeable difference, the fans on this Deepcool Assassin 2 are quiet (but sadly don't move much air when the CPU ramps up).
> 
> It's too bad the 290X has a stock cooler though...don't want to get a heatsink for it, because I intent to put everything under water eventually.


That looks really good!
Nice clean lines. Very professional.

Back looks very much like mine.









I'm assuming 2nd pic is front? Looks like a little more trimming to fit opening to fan would help.









What 290x do you have?


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> That looks really good!
> Nice clean lines. Very professional.
> 
> Back looks very much like mine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming 2nd pic is front? Looks like a little more trimming to fit opening to fan would help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What 290x do you have?


The second pic is the top of the case, the TJ08-E has a odd intake layout for the PSU.

I plan on getting some rubber u-channel soon, to cover up the sharp edges of the cuts in the case I have made.

The 290X is just a stock Sapphire model, dying to have better cooling, its clocks 1100/1450 without any added voltage, but the blower fan screams when it gets under load.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> The second pic is the top of the case, the TJ08-E has a odd intake layout for the PSU.
> 
> I plan on getting some rubber u-channel soon, to cover up the sharp edges of the cuts in the case I have made.
> 
> The 290X is just a stock Sapphire model, dying to have better cooling, its clocks 1100/1450 without any added voltage, but the blower fan screams when it gets under load.


Makes sense now.








You may know this, but files clean up cut edges pretty nicely, and a black marker colors the edges quite nicely.

Yeah, I don't like the reference GPUs with blowers. Too loud. There are some very good aftermarket GPU coolers. Don't know what all is available in your area.


----------



## Deadlycupcake

Hey doyll, chanced upon you at the Cryorig owners club and found this amazing thread. I was wondering if you could take a look at my case airflow. Intakes are a NF-A14 at 850ish rpm, fractal R5 stock fan (Dynamic GP-14) and a Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm. Exhaust is another R5 stock fan. All fans except the noctua is connected to the integrated voltage fan controller and the controller is set to the middle setting (7v?) . Are there too many fans and would I need to tweak it once I install a Cryorig H5 Universal? Thanks, I really appreciate this thread.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadlycupcake*
> 
> Hey doyll, chanced upon you at the Cryorig owners club and found this amazing thread. I was wondering if you could take a look at my case airflow. Intakes are a NF-A14 at 850ish rpm, fractal R5 stock fan (Dynamic GP-14) and a Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm. Exhaust is another R5 stock fan. All fans except the noctua is connected to the integrated voltage fan controller and the controller is set to the middle setting (7v?) . Are there too many fans and would I need to tweak it once I install a Cryorig H5 Universal? Thanks, I really appreciate this thread.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


You should be fine as it is.

If you want to experiment you can probably gain a couple degrees. Using a remote thermometer like shown in post #2 will show you exactly what your CPU and GPU cooler intake air temps are compared to room.


----------



## Harrywang

I have finally ordered all the parts I needed for my new case. This is my first time using PWM fans and I want to get the most out of all the fans and have good air cooling in my case. I am going to be using the Fractal Design Define S. I have bought a Noctua NH-D15 and 5x Noctua A14 PWM fans for this upcoming build and want all of it to be controlled from the CPU and GPU.

I'll be using 3X front intakes, 1x bottom intake, and 1x back exhaust.

I want to have the 1 bottom intake + 1 front bottom intake to be controlled by my GPU. The rest of the fans will be controlled by my CPU. If you have a better suggestion on how many fans I should set up the PWM fans please tell me!

I ordered these PWM splitters : http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812311001&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-

http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini-4%252dPin-GPU-%28Female%29-to-Mini-4%252dPin-GPU-%28Male%29-%7B47%7D-4%252dPin-Fan-%28Male%29-Cable-Splitter.html

I also checked if my GPU were PWM connectors and I think they are. I took some pictures so you can verify

https://imgur.com/a/wv0ih

What do you think? Would they all work??

I've also cut out all the back grille and the bottom grilles as well. Voided the warranty right when I got it lol. It's a fun mini project so far and I hope it all works out!


----------



## doyll

Sounds like it should work well. Don't forget to raise the case for better airflow to bottom venting and of course remove all unused PCIe slot covers.

Those splitter are the devils spawn, but with a little work will be okay.


----------



## Harrywang

Ah I hope they don't break on me lol. The swiftech and gelid wasn't really available for me and this was pretty cheap so I just ordered it. As long as it works it should be good! Can't wait to post pictures here when it's all done.

For the PWM gpu fan splitter am I able to add another splitter (the noctua a14 comes with extra splitters) since I am going to be controlling 2 case fans from the GPU?

I will definitely be removing all unused pcie covers.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Harrywang*
> 
> Ah I hope they don't break on me lol. The swiftech and gelid wasn't really available for me and this was pretty cheap so I just ordered it. As long as it works it should be good! Can't wait to post pictures here when it's all done.
> 
> For the PWM gpu fan splitter am I able to add another splitter (the noctua a14 comes with extra splitters) since I am going to be controlling 2 case fans from the GPU?
> 
> I will definitely be removing all unused pcie covers.


Yes, you can add more splitters. Just don't load the fan header over it's rated power limit.


----------



## Harrywang

Sneak peak of whats to come


----------



## doyll

Butt ugly fans (pun intended) but do perform. Too bad they are so expensive.


----------



## Harrywang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Butt ugly fans (pun intended) but do perform. Too bad they are so expensive.


They look so nice to me lol. Having it all black just looks so bland. In Canada all the top tier 140mm fans are about the same in price. Matter of fact out of the 3 that I looked at (vardars, thermalright) these were the cheapest. I don't even know how the vardars perform compared to these and there not even in stock because of the recall.


----------



## doyll

Ah yes. I forgot you were up there .. in the land of almost nothing .


----------



## Harrywang

90% done!! Here it is



Awesome case!! Got some pretty big improvements on everything except my GPU. My CPU is idling at 25-27 degrees which is about 4-5c higher then ambient I think. During load when I play dota 2 it never exceeds 48-49c where before in my old case and the hyper 212+ it was getting to 55-65ish. This is with the lowest RPM PWM setting which is 800 RPM so the noise is pretty much non existent with this case. The only thing I can hear is my WD black. Need to get an ssd soon lol. Very good improvments so far. Going to be trying to go for an higher overclock soon. Not sure if I should do it now or wait till summer since it gets a lot hotter during summer. Either way I'm very satisfied with this new setup.

My r9 280x used to idle at 30c same as my GPU however since the last couple of months it has been idling at 40C constantly. I have no idea why. Changing the case and having better air flow did not drop temp at all. I think it's a thermal paste problem or a driver issue of some sort. Going to reseat the thermal paste when the GPU pwm wire arrives.

Which brings me to my next question. Can you show me which blue wire I have to cut out? I want to be 100% sure since I don't want to mess it up.


----------



## doyll

Pin-4 is the PWM signal. You want that one. Pin-3 is rpm signal from fan. You only want one rpm signal going to fan header.

I'm assuming the above GPU PWM splitter will be connected to GPU fans on one side and PWM splitter with PSU power on the other with case fans plugged into it. I'm assuming you want to use GPU to monitor GPU fan speeds.

To monitor case fan speeds you can use the rpm lead from fan in a 3-pin or 4-pin fan plug plugged into an unused mobo fan header as shown in post #40.


----------



## Shatun-Bear

doyll can I pick your brains please.

I have 4 Phanteks PH-F140HP fans in my Air 540 case. Two are used on my Corsair 110i GT radiator. The other two as case intakes. Recently, the fans have started to make an irritating whirring sound so I want to slowly swap them all out for something with similar performance in terms of noise and airflow.

As the rad that I'm using two of them on is dense, I need to choose fans that move a lot of air or my CPU cooling takes a hit. But I also want them to be quiet as I'm sensitive to noise!

So what would you recommend as something on the same level or better than the PH-F140HP? It's difficult for me to find anything as at the time I believed the Phanteks were the best fans for my needs in terms of dB output and airflow.

According to Scan, here are the specs for the *Phanteks PH-F140HP*:

Fan Diameter: 140mm
Fan Depth: 25 mm
Fan Speed: 1550 rpm
*Airflow: 88.6 CFM
Sound Level: 19 dB*

As a comparison, here is what they advertise for the *Noctua NF-A14*:

Noctua NF-A14

Fan Diameter: 140mm
Fan Depth: 25 mm
Fan Speed: 1500 rpm
*Airflow: 82.5 CFM
Sound Level: 24.6 dB*


----------



## doyll

Of course you can pick my brain, but not my nose. :









There are several topics in first post of this thread.
Have you read them? Like the post here about P-Q curves and how airflow actually works in real world compared to maximum free air cfm or maximum mm H2O when there is no airflow at all? It's much easier for me to help if you understand the basics involved first. Then we can skip to figuring out what are best options and search accordingly.

The PH-F140SP is a good fan, but as you have found out it's really not up to the task of a high fin count radiator. Few fans are .. which is a big part of the reason CLC fans are so darn loud.

A15 will not do much if any better


----------



## Shatun-Bear

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Of course you can pick my brain, but not my nose. :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are several topics in first post of this thread.
> Have you read them? Like the post here about P-Q curves and how airflow actually works in real world compared to maximum free air cfm or maximum mm H2O when there is no airflow at all? It's much easier for me to help if you understand the basics involved first. Then we can skip to figuring out what are best options and search accordingly.
> 
> The PH-F140SP is a good fan, but as you have found out it's really not up to the task of a high fin count radiator. Few fans are .. which is a big part of the reason CLC fans are so darn loud.
> 
> A15 will not do much if any better


Thanks mate I do have a decent understanding of fans and coolers but I haven't read through all of your OP so will go through it now (I've read another guide to coolin here on OC.net but that guide seemed more skewed towards performance at the expense of noise and I believe you are more sympathetic to those of us who appreciate low noise!).

Any idea what would cause a whirring (sounds like a quiet 'BRRRRRRRRRR') in those Phanteks fans I have? Ball bearings? motor?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shatun-Bear*
> 
> Thanks mate I do have a decent understanding of fans and coolers but I haven't read through all of your OP so will go through it now (I've read another guide to coolin here on OC.net but that guide seemed more skewed towards performance at the expense of noise and I believe you are more sympathetic to those of us who appreciate low noise!).
> 
> Any idea what would cause a whirring (sounds like a quiet 'BRRRRRRRRRR') in those Phanteks fans I have? Ball bearings? motor?


Really hard to say. Are fans in open space, or being a grill, or in front of have something like a HDD cage behind it?


----------



## Shatun-Bear

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Really hard to say. Are fans in open space, or being a grill, or in front of have something like a HDD cage behind it?


The two noisiest (although I'm not even sure of this) are the two front intake fans, which are sucking air through fine mesh as well as grill on the Air 540.

Weird thing is the faint whirring sound sounds like some kind of motor but it's likely not as when I take these fans and turn them on in open air the sound isn't there.


----------



## doyll

Sounds like it might be fan blades moving past something near them .. like a brace on a filter or even a grill strip. Every been near a wind farm? Each time one of the big blades on the generator pasts the pillar they are mounted on there is a "whauumm" sound because of the change in airlfow past the pillar / fan blade.


----------



## Shatun-Bear

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sounds like it might be fan blades moving past something near them .. like a brace on a filter or even a grill strip. Every been near a wind farm? Each time one of the big blades on the generator pasts the pillar they are mounted on there is a "whauumm" sound because of the change in airlfow past the pillar / fan blade.


That is now my suspicion. Haven't got the time right now but I am going to isolate each fan to see exactly where the noise is coming from. Aesthetically, the fans are beautiful imo (all white with premium looking silver Phanteks sticker) so wouldn't mind keeping them but I do like to tinker.

Got my eyes on some Thermalright TY 147A PWMs for £4.91 and I know you're a fan of those.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shatun-Bear*
> 
> That is now my suspicion. Haven't got the time right now but I am going to isolate each fan to see exactly where the noise is coming from. Aesthetically, the fans are beautiful imo (all white with premium looking silver Phanteks sticker) so wouldn't mind keeping them but I do like to tinker.
> 
> Got my eyes on some Thermalright TY 147A PWMs for £4.91 and I know you're a fan of those.


At that price I would grab them if they will mount in your applicaton. They really are exceptional fans and normally cost twice or more than that. There are posts here about cutting them to 140x140mm and how to make adapter plates.


----------



## Shatun-Bear

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> At that price I would grab them if they will mount in your applicaton. They really are exceptional fans and normally cost twice or more than that. There are posts here about cutting them to 140x140mm and how to make adapter plates.


Cool well I believe they have the same mount spacing and shape as the Phanteks which are currently attached to my radiator using cellotape! So they are very much an option. Thanks for your advice anyhow, I'll update here on what I do


----------



## Dan-H

I
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shatun-Bear*
> 
> Got my eyes on some Thermalright TY 147A PWMs for £


You lost me at £. Sadly there is almost no-one selling these in the US.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> I
> You lost me at £. Sadly there is almost no-one selling these in the US.


Only retailer I know of in USA is Nan's Gaming Gear
http://www.nansgaminggear.net/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1824


----------



## Harrywang

Pretty much 90% done of my build with doylls guidance. My temps have improved dramatically but most importantly sound has been non existent on my case. Thank you doyll for your amazing guide!

Bad news is I have been waiting for the GPU pwm wire for over a month now since it got lost or something over the holidays







moddiy is currently investigating and who knows how long that is going to take.

Good news is I figured out how to use speedfan and with it you can use it to control your fans to the GPU temp sensors so basically it is the same thing. My bios doesn't have fan curve control so I'm forced to use this either way. It's pretty amazing!!

Air cooling sure has came a long way.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Harrywang*
> 
> Pretty much 90% done of my build with doylls guidance. My temps have improved dramatically but most importantly sound has been non existent on my case. Thank you doyll for your amazing guide!
> 
> Bad news is I have been waiting for the GPU pwm wire for over a month now since it got lost or something over the holidays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> moddiy is currently investigating and who knows how long that is going to take.
> 
> Good news is I figured out how to use speedfan and with it you can use it to control your fans to the GPU temp sensors so basically it is the same thing. My bios doesn't have fan curve control so I'm forced to use this either way. It's pretty amazing!!
> 
> Air cooling sure has came a long way.


Thanks Harry.







I didn't write anything new. It just a collection of others' knowldedge.









Not really so much that air cooling has progressed as much as peeps are finding the info that's been known for a long time, but ignored by much of the industry. It's too bad the 'air cooling' industry is more interested in fancy looks then functional airflow.







There are few if any mid-level cases that are anywhere close to being setup properly out of the box .. and there is no reason for this except the case industry doesn't care.









If you were to write up a guild of how to use speedfan and post it here, I would add it to the index. Just a thought.

Index is getting so big maybe I should alphabetize / organize by subject so it's easier for peeps to find things. Thoughts?


----------



## PSILVA

Are this temps ok?

i5-4690k 4.4ghz 1.2v idle 44º, load 62º

Evga GTX970 idle 32º, load 72º

Room temp 22º


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PSILVA*
> 
> Are this temps ok?
> 
> i5-4690k 4.4ghz 1.2v idle 44º, load 62º
> 
> Evga GTX970 idle 32º, load 72º
> 
> Room temp 22º


Definitely not bad. Both are at least 10c below even my conservative 'safe' limits. Many would say 15c for CPU. I don't know what your GTX970 threshold is but at a guess 85-90c.

Without knowing what the CPU and GPU intake air temps are I don't know if your case is optimized to it best potential. Which is why I use a cheap thermometer like 2nd post in this thread shows.


----------



## mukumi

Hello,

I should get my NH-U14S this week. I'm checking how I should configure my fans.

Right now I'm using a Thermaltake F51 with two front NF-A14 at 5v, two Silverstone AP123 in the bottom at 5v. For those one I think i'm ok.

For the exhaust I will go with a rear 140mm (jetflo, ap141 or riing 14 since I have those in stock) and a roof-rear nf-a15 pwm.

I have one question: would there be any issue if i put an intake 140mm fan in the roof middle so that the NH-U14S get fresh air direclty from the roof? Or should i not care about that?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mukumi*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I should get my NH-U14S this week. I'm checking how I should configure my fans.
> 
> Right now I'm using a Thermaltake F51 with two front NF-A14 at 5v, two Silverstone AP123 in the bottom at 5v. For those one I think i'm ok.
> 
> For the exhaust I will go with a rear 140mm (jetflo, ap141 or riing 14 since I have those in stock) and a roof-rear nf-a15 pwm.
> 
> I have one question: would there be any issue if i put an intake 140mm fan in the roof middle so that the NH-U14S get fresh air direclty from the roof? Or should i not care about that?


answer to question, yes, having intake an exhaust near each other makes both near worthless. (post #21 this thread).

When I first saw the Air 540 I thought it looks great!. But after looking more closely it became apparent it was not so great. Corsair should know better than to try making a case be good for all uses. It just doesn't work.

Ever see a motorcycle that is tops on motocross track as well as being a great touring bike? Yeah, me either.







Great road bikes are worse than worthless on motocross track, and great motocross bikes are worthless on open road.

540 has
2x 140mm/3x 120mm front fan mounts
1x 140mm rear fan moun
x 120mm/140mm top fan mounts

2x 140mm or 3x 120mm have similar overall performance / airflow (assuming both are similar design fans.
Most hi-performance systems need 3x 140mm or 4-5x 120mm fans to flow needed air for components. {CPU cooler (1x 140mm) = 1x 140mm, GPU cooler (3x 92mm fans) = 1.5x 140mm fans, and 0.5x 140mm fan so case flow is a little more than component]. This does not take into consideration 'stacked' fans, like push/pull fans on CPU cooler or push/pull (intake/exhasust) fans on case.

Obviously case fans need to match or exceed component cooler fans flow rates at all times. This means either they run fast and noisy all the time, you have a fan controller and have to remember to turn them up and down all the time, or they are setup to cycle in sync with component fans and flow what they need at all times automatically .. which is what I do.

Now back to the 540.
It does not have venting or fan mounts for enough intake and exhaust flow. If we use 2x 140mm front and 1x 140mm top intakes we only have 1x rear and 1x top exhaust vents .. at least 1x 140mm vent less exhaust area as intake .. and even removing all unused PCIe back slot covers does not give us enough exhaust area. Add to this about half of the top exhaust (heated air) will be drawn into top intake.

The back / front and bottom / top case size is just not big enough to flow the air without rather major case modifications. Like adding a bottom intake close to the front. blocking front half of top vent (all area in front of CPU cooler), and cutting out the back of case so there are only support frame for case and support frame for PCIe mounting.

This is not saying the 540 will not work okay. But it has some major limitations.

Knobby tires on highway or smooth tread in mud just don't work very well.








On a positive note, you have some good fans!









If you want to mod your case, we can .. but ..
Should you accept this mission and are compromised I will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This message will self-distruct in 30 seconds.


----------



## chrisjames61

doyll, was just reading thru this thread. I just want to say you put a lot of work into it and it is very informative. I appreciate it.


----------



## doyll

Thanks @chrisjames61 It all started because of frustration of how much miss-information there is out there about cooling and airflow. Some many see cooling and airflow in black and white when it is more greys than anything. Any questions or suggestions please let me know.


----------



## miklkit

Now you are raining on my proposed parade. I am considering getting an air 540 and mounting either 3-120 or 2 big 140 fans in the front, 1 120-140 in the top front, and removing the rear exhaust screen from the case. This would give me essentially what I already have but in a far wider case.

Nobody makes a case with an open rear as far as I know.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> Now you are raining on my proposed parade. I am considering getting an air 540 and mounting either 3-120 or 2 big 140 fans in the front, 1 120-140 in the top front, and removing the rear exhaust screen from the case. This would give me essentially what I already have but in a far wider case.
> 
> Nobody makes a case with an open rear as far as I know.


I rained on your 540 parade a long time ago.








I would like to get one and modding it with good bottom and front intakes, front half of top blocked and opening up the back. I think it would work well.


----------



## mukumi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> answer to question, yes, having intake an exhaust near each other makes both near worthless. (post #21 this thread).
> 
> When I first saw the Air 540 I thought it looks great!. But after looking more closely it became apparent it was not so great. Corsair should know better than to try making a case be good for all uses. It just doesn't work.
> 
> Ever see a motorcycle that is tops on motocross track as well as being a great touring bike? Yeah, me either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great road bikes are worse than worthless on motocross track, and great motocross bikes are worthless on open road.
> 
> 540 has
> 2x 140mm/3x 120mm front fan mounts
> 1x 140mm rear fan moun
> x 120mm/140mm top fan mounts
> 
> 2x 140mm or 3x 120mm have similar overall performance / airflow (assuming both are similar design fans.
> Most hi-performance systems need 3x 140mm or 4-5x 120mm fans to flow needed air for components. {CPU cooler (1x 140mm) = 1x 140mm, GPU cooler (3x 92mm fans) = 1.5x 140mm fans, and 0.5x 140mm fan so case flow is a little more than component]. This does not take into consideration 'stacked' fans, like push/pull fans on CPU cooler or push/pull (intake/exhasust) fans on case.
> 
> Obviously case fans need to match or exceed component cooler fans flow rates at all times. This means either they run fast and noisy all the time, you have a fan controller and have to remember to turn them up and down all the time, or they are setup to cycle in sync with component fans and flow what they need at all times automatically .. which is what I do.
> 
> Now back to the 540.
> It does not have venting or fan mounts for enough intake and exhaust flow. If we use 2x 140mm front and 1x 140mm top intakes we only have 1x rear and 1x top exhaust vents .. at least 1x 140mm vent less exhaust area as intake .. and even removing all unused PCIe back slot covers does not give us enough exhaust area. Add to this about half of the top exhaust (heated air) will be drawn into top intake.
> 
> The back / front and bottom / top case size is just not big enough to flow the air without rather major case modifications. Like adding a bottom intake close to the front. blocking front half of top vent (all area in front of CPU cooler), and cutting out the back of case so there are only support frame for case and support frame for PCIe mounting.
> 
> This is not saying the 540 will not work okay. But it has some major limitations.
> 
> Knobby tires on highway or smooth tread in mud just don't work very well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On a positive note, you have some good fans!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to mod your case, we can .. but ..
> Should you accept this mission and are compromised I will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This message will self-distruct in 30 seconds.


Thanks for your message but.. sorry my rig is not updated because the Thermaltake F51 case is not in the db of the forum (which is why I've written that i'm using a Thermaltake F51 in my message. I should have noted more clearly now I feel ashamed that you wrote that much for nothing :/).


----------



## miklkit

That would work. I still think a top intake would be better than a bottom intake as the bottom intake could push hot GPU air up into the CPU intake flow.

But since neither one of us actually owns one this is all moot.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> That would work. I still think a top intake would be better than a bottom intake as the bottom intake could push hot GPU air up into the CPU intake flow.
> 
> But since neither one of us actually owns one this is all moot.


To balance the intake and exhaust area requires either some top or some bottom vent. I doubt the GPU flow pattern would work with exhaust in bottom GPU pulls air up from bottom, so how would you set it all up?


----------



## miklkit

Well, what I have now seems to work ok. The bottom is solid. The whole front is taken up by 3-120 intake fans and the OD and buttons. The bottom fan feeds the GPU. All the others are for the CPU and the one on the top front is to help keep hot exhaust from the GPU from getting into the CPU intake air stream. The CPU fans are just as powerful as all the other fans combined and work as exhaust. I really need more powerful intake fans.


----------



## mukumi

To come back to my "case". I have almost the same configuration as this one:
http://i.imgur.com/iaUlMd8.jpg

But I have, at the moment, only one NF-A15 as exhaust in the roof (in the middle) and my Nepton 140XL is on the rear as exhaust too.

I'm switching from the AIO nepton to Noctua NH-U14S so my idea was to use the middle/roof fan as intake so that the NH-U14S can suck fresh air and use a silverstone AP141 in the rear/roof that way the intake fan does not absorb hot air (Silverstone Air Penetrator series do a clear "air column", now maybe it'll be broken by the weird pattern holes in the Thermaltake F51 roof.

In total that would then make:
Intake
2x 140mm front intake
2x 120mm bottom intake
1x 140/120mm roof middle intake (Not sure if useful)

Exhaust:
1x 140mm roof rear exhaust
1x 140mm rear exhaust

That's clearly a positive pressure setup. There is a huge honeycomb design next to the PCI Slots in the F51 I think that this setup would benefit of it. Else I also have a Lian-Li BS03 that I can use if it helps: http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/bs-03/

Note that I have the panel version of the case so I can add a fan on the side. Actually my temps are ok for the moment. I just want to reduce noise as much as I can so using a side fan might be counter productive in that regards.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mukumi*
> 
> To come back to my "case". I have almost the same configuration as this one:
> http://i.imgur.com/iaUlMd8.jpg
> 
> But I have, at the moment, only one NF-A15 as exhaust in the roof (in the middle) and my Nepton 140XL is on the rear as exhaust too.
> 
> I'm switching from the AIO nepton to Noctua NH-U14S so my idea was to use the middle/roof fan as intake so that the NH-U14S can suck fresh air and use a silverstone AP141 in the rear/roof that way the intake fan does not absorb hot air (Silverstone Air Penetrator series do a clear "air column", now maybe it'll be broken by the weird pattern holes in the Thermaltake F51 roof.
> 
> In total that would then make:
> Intake
> 2x 140mm front intake
> 2x 120mm bottom intake
> 1x 140/120mm roof middle intake (Not sure if useful)
> 
> Exhaust:
> 1x 140mm roof rear exhaust
> 1x 140mm rear exhaust
> 
> That's clearly a positive pressure setup. There is a huge honeycomb design next to the PCI Slots in the F51 I think that this setup would benefit of it. Else I also have a Lian-Li BS03 that I can use if it helps: http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/bs-03/
> 
> Note that I have the panel version of the case so I can add a fan on the side. Actually my temps are ok for the moment. I just want to reduce noise as much as I can so using a side fan might be counter productive in that regards.


I wouldn't use the top one as intake you will find it will recycle the exhausted air I would keep your intakes as is frt and bottom and rear exhaust maybe one exh up top to .
If you don't have anything in your drive bays you could try putting a fan in there ghetto style? , to flow air to the cooler


----------



## marn3us

@doyll: dumb question, what is the advantage of removing PCIe covers and rear panels as much as possible?









In my Enthoo Pro I have set up 3x 140mm NF-A14 ippc intake fans (2x front and 1x bottom as you suggested) and one very slow spinning rear Phanteks 140mm exhaust (my gpu has 2x axial fans and cooler is DRP3)... should I still remove PCIe slot covers even if they are already perforated and the rear of my phanteks is full of air vents?

thanks in advance


----------



## doyll

Intake
2x 140mm front intake
2x 120mm bottom intake
1x 140/120mm roof middle intake (Not sure if useful)

Exhaust:
1x 140mm roof rear exhaust
1x 140mm rear exhaust
With good intake fans, no exhaust fans are needed. You could use a back exhaust, but I doubt I would use a top exhaust. I would only use a top intake if case is setting out in the open. If it is under a desk the heated air coming out of case is likely to be sucked back in by a top intake.

Using a remote probe thermometer (cheap indoor/outdoor digital w/ wired remote sensor post #2) works well in determining compoent intake air temp.
A divider between CPU and GPU might help keep heated GPU exhaust from contaminating CPU cool intake air.

Removing the PCIe covers improves front to back airflow. This allows GPU's heated exhausts air to flow back and out of case without contaminating the cool air flowing in from front and bottom. At least contaminate it less .. hopefully.

Any grill, even a simple wire grill disrupts and restricts airflow by 10-60%.

Here is a quick drawing of what I suggest.


----------



## marn3us

So you suggest adding a fourth intake NF-A14 (I have one spare) on the front-most top slot to provide cool air to the DRP3?









(My case is the Enthoo Pro with the 5.25" case mounted)


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> So you suggest adding a fourth intake NF-A14 (I have one spare) on the front-most top slot to provide cool air to the DRP3?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (My case is the Enthoo Pro with the 5.25" case mounted)


Don't put words in my mouth.









The case and fan layout is for mukumi

Enthoo Pro should do very well with 2x front and 1x bottom 140mm fans. At least it works very well in my Enthoo Luxe as well as for others I know with Luxe and Pro case.

But if you want to test it and see, monitor cooler intake (CPU & GPU) to see i adding the fan lowers their intake air temp. Also depends on fan speed, load, etc.


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The case and fan layout is for mukumi
> 
> Enthoo Pro should do very well with 2x front and 1x bottom 140mm fans. At least it works very well in my Enthoo Luxe as well as for others I know with Luxe and Pro case.
> 
> But if you want to test it and see, monitor cooler intake (CPU & GPU) to see i adding the fan lowers their intake air temp. Also depends on fan speed, load, etc.


LOL I must have mis-interpreted your post since the answer was just after my post









I am doing great with 3x 140 intakes on my Pro and I think I'm not going to try the 4th fan on the top because I'd need to buy a 4-pin extender to reach fan header









thanks again!

ps: I'd love if you could share here or send me via pm a/some picture/s of your Luxe since the layout is similar to my Pro


----------



## mukumi

Thank you really much doyll! I've already removed the HDD bays but the 5.25 ones are in use so a front intake fan in the roof will be hard to set. I'll check if it's possible or not but I really doubt about it









I'll give a try to your advices!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mukumi*
> 
> Thank you really much doyll! I've already removed the HDD bays but the 5.25 ones are in use so a front intake fan in the roof will be hard to set. I'll check if it's possible or not but I really doubt about it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give a try to your advices!


I'm sure you know this, but when system is working hard opening the case's front door will most likely lower temps several degrees.

Also, the divider between GPU and CPU might work better with a bend at front to allow more cool airflow area to CPU cooler.


----------



## mukumi

Yes I know but it's not like I have atrocious temps with a single GPU and an i7 5775c. I'm more looking to get the most silentful cooling that I can.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mukumi*
> 
> Yes I know but it's not like I have atrocious temps with a single GPU and an i7 5775c. I'm more looking to get the most silentful cooling that I can.


Stop with the pessimistic attitude.








Use ear plugs  or muffs 








It can be done!
I cooled an i7 [email protected] 4.0GHz with a PH-TC14PE in an old Define R2 case. Only time it was even audible (except for HDD noise on vibration dampened mounts) was at 95-100% load rendering graphics. And even then it was only just audible enough that at about 1.5 meters distance I could just hear it .. enough I new when rendering was being done. Maximum CPU temps were mid 60s in hot weather. I could have slowed fans down and let heat rise to mid 70s and it would have been inaudible, but the fan noise was so low it didn't even cause dB meter to change room's 30-33dBA ambient noise leave.


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> ps: @doyll I'd love if you could share here or send me via pm a/some picture/s of your Luxe since the layout is similar to my Pro


Please


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> LOL I must have mis-interpreted your post since the answer was just after my post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am doing great with 3x 140 intakes on my Pro and I think I'm not going to try the 4th fan on the top because I'd need to buy a 4-pin extender to reach fan header
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks again!
> 
> ps: I'd love if you could share here or send me via pm a/some picture/s of your Luxe since the layout is similar to my Pro


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> Please


Case isn't here. Might be seeing it is a week or so. Will try and remember to take some pics when I next see it.







But there is nothing special about it. 2x front and 1x bottom intakes. Other than changing front 200mm fan to 2x 140mm ones, the only thing not stock is 30mm castor base.


----------



## maddangerous

Any thoughts on This case? Looks nice, think it would air cool? Just happened to see it whilst trying to decide on fans for my server case.


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Case isn't here. Might be seeing it is a week or so. Will try and remember to take some pics when I next see it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But there is nothing special about it. 2x front and 1x bottom intakes. Other than changing front 200mm fan to 2x 140mm ones, the only thing not stock is 30mm castor base.


Oh I see, then it's like mine.

I thought you had fancy things such as custom dividers above gpu or 5.25" fan


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> Oh I see, then it's like mine.
> 
> I thought you had fancy things such as custom dividers above gpu or 5.25" fan


Both of the above will help in some builds, like if GPU size exhasut airlfow is contaminating CPU's cool airflow. But because my cooler intake air temp is always less than 3c warmer than room I see no need to add more airflow and/or re-direct it.


----------



## mukumi

As I thought I couldn't put a 140mm fan in the roof / front of my case due to the presence of items in the 5.25 bay. So I've added it in the middle of the top. I still have to add a ULNA adapter on it to not completely break the airflow.

I'm not that happy with the temps of my GPU with that setup and the fans on low so I'm thinking about adding a side fan (on low also). I wonder if I should use exhaust or intake. Exhaust would be better to help extracting heat from the case ? THat would make a total of 3x140mm + 2x120mm intake and two exhaust (one on the side, one in the rear).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mukumi*
> 
> As I thought I couldn't put a 140mm fan in the roof / front of my case due to the presence of items in the 5.25 bay. So I've added it in the middle of the top. I still have to add a ULNA adapter on it to not completely break the airflow.
> 
> I'm not that happy with the temps of my GPU with that setup and the fans on low so I'm thinking about adding a side fan (on low also). I wonder if I should use exhaust or intake. Exhaust would be better to help extracting heat from the case ? THat would make a total of 3x140mm + 2x120mm intake and two exhaust (one on the side, one in the rear).


If you have not checked the actual air temp going into GPU (and CPU) it is really hard to guess what the best options are. This is why I suggest using a low cost digital thermometer with remote sensor. The couple of dollars a terrarium / aquarium or indoor/outdoor thermometer costs is well worth the time it saves by showing us the air temps going into components .. Without knowing what they are means we have to do much more 'experimentation' to determine what gives the coolest air to component based on component temp, rather than being able to compare the difference between room air and component intake air temps.


----------



## PSILVA

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Definitely not bad. Both are at least 10c below even my conservative 'safe' limits. Many would say 15c for CPU. I don't know what your GTX970 threshold is but at a guess 85-90c.
> 
> Without knowing what the CPU and GPU intake air temps are I don't know if your case is optimized to it best potential. Which is why I use a cheap thermometer like 2nd post in this thread shows.


It will be whorth to upgrade to Noctua NH-D15 or Phantek PH-TC14PE?


----------



## Sethy666

@ doyll

Great thread, lots of very helpful info. Thanks for putting this together.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PSILVA*
> 
> It will be whorth to upgrade to Noctua NH-D15 or Phantek PH-TC14PE?


Honestly, no. I know of at least 2 other people who have both and when setting up to test whichever is easier to grab gets used.

Performance is so near identical we can't pick a winner .. and it's not just D15 and 14PE. There are at least half a dozen others all running neck and neck to a photo finish .. and each race will have a different winner. Maybe the D15 is a degree or 2 cooler, but it also has noiser fans than I'm normally use. I'm running TY-147A fans on my PH-TC14PE with a max speed of 1300rpm versus A15 1500rpm. If I wanted more cooling I would mount up TY-143 2500rpm fans. Super quiet from idle (550rpm) up to about 1100rpm (same sound level to TY-147A max 1300rpm/74cfm), but spin them on up (might want ear plug) and they will deliver 130cfm. That equates to about 8c more cooling, but also requires case fans to move the same increase .. almost twice the air of normal fans.







But if you want 'sleeper' / 'wolf in sheep's clothing' cooling. .. I pushed my i7 980X to 4.5GHz with these babies. Would have kept that OC, but it was way too power hungry for day to day use. Besides, at stock 4.0GHz it's still so fast I never use it's potential.







.

Sethy666,
Glad you found it helpful. I need some spare time to update the cooler size and cooling data .. and there is so much more I could add. Jus tdon't have the time.


----------



## PSILVA

I have the Nh-12up


----------



## doyll

Any suggestion, please let me know.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PSILVA*
> 
> I have the Nh-12up


Where are you located? What websites do you buy from? There may be a better deal on another cooler with same cooling and noise levels.


----------



## PSILVA

Portugal, see at caseking.de 69,90eur for the phantek


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PSILVA*
> 
> Portugal, see at caseking.de 69,90eur for the phantek


That is a very good deal! .. looks like shipping is only 3.99eur


----------



## Danzle

Hey! Could i get some feedback on this system idea:

Case:
- Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ITX windowsless [DIY sounddampening kit]

CPU:
- i7 6700K @4.7GHz Delided

MoBo:
- Asus Z170I Pro

Memory:
- Corsair Vengeace LPX 3333MHz

GPU:
- EVGA GTX 980 Ti Hybrid [mounted on roof -> far right toward front]

PSU:
- EVGA SUPERNOVA 850 G2

My idea was a silent but well cooled high end system in a small and dust free (as free as possible) enclosure. The Evolv ITX is small compared to the Nano S and offer 200mm for air coolers where i would take 20mm for noise dampening if not more. I also want to dampen the roof panel without killing the exhaust of the radiator. Now i only need a good ventilation, since the included 200mm fan would probably suck because of bad pressure/noise/cfm balance.

I have the option of 2x140mm intakes and one 140mm exhaust and would also need a good cpu cooler. Budget is open and only limited to the case capacity and availability in switzerland. Should be silent and cool! Had enough jet blasting from my notebook over the past 4 years.









Myown idea would be a NH-D15S with three NF-A14 PWM pushing the air form front to back.

Edit: Worth noting: I will use fandampeners in form of shroud.


----------



## rgrwng

is there any testing, guides, or documentation regarding fan noise when groups of fans are together?

for example, when you have a single 23.7 dba fan next to a second or third one (or even more), what is the overall cumulative dba?


----------



## Danzle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rgrwng*
> 
> is there any testing, guides, or documentation regarding fan noise when groups of fans are together?
> 
> for example, when you have a single 23.7 dba fan next to a second or third one (or even more), what is the overall cumulative dba?


I rember reading it and after a quick googling i found it. Noise is addet logarithmically according to source. fancy mat, nothing for me.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Danzle*
> 
> Hey! Could i get some feedback on this system idea:
> 
> Case:
> - Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ITX windowsless [DIY sounddampening kit]
> 
> CPU:
> - i7 6700K @4.7GHz Delided
> 
> MoBo:
> - Asus Z170I Pro
> 
> Memory:
> - Corsair Vengeace LPX 3333MHz
> 
> GPU:
> - EVGA GTX 980 Ti Hybrid [mounted on roof -> far right toward front]
> 
> PSU:
> - EVGA SUPERNOVA 850 G2
> 
> My idea was a silent but well cooled high end system in a small and dust free (as free as possible) enclosure. The Evolv ITX is small compared to the Nano S and offer 200mm for air coolers where i would take 20mm for noise dampening if not more. I also want to dampen the roof panel without killing the exhaust of the radiator. Now i only need a good ventilation, since the included 200mm fan would probably suck because of bad pressure/noise/cfm balance.
> 
> I have the option of 2x140mm intakes and one 140mm exhaust and would also need a good cpu cooler. Budget is open and only limited to the case capacity and availability in switzerland. Should be silent and cool! Had enough jet blasting from my notebook over the past 4 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Myown idea would be a NH-D15S with three NF-A14 PWM pushing the air form front to back.
> 
> Edit: Worth noting: I will use fandampeners in form of shroud.


I have not used any of the Enthoo Evolv case series. I have the Enthoo Luxe and Enthoo Primo. Love them both but they are definitely bigger .. Primo is huge.

One of the first things to change in my Luxe was the 200mm fan. I have little experience with 200m fans, but from that little experience I was not at all impressed. 2x 140 PH-F140SP front fan move way more air at lower noise levels .. but Evolv ITX front is not setup to use anything but the 200mm fan. At a glance it would appear the front vent are is significantly less than fan area .. also not a good thing.

Your other components look good. Personally I would not go with CLC cooling on anything, but it's your deal, not mine.








Good quiet GPUs are a nightmare to find. None of them are designed with cooling that compliments case airflow. Fact is the work against case airflow.







A few years back I played with bigger coolers like Alpenfohn Peter and liked it. Also had some good results on 2x and 3x 92mm fanned GPUs by removing shroud and using 120mm fans. Worked very good most of the time, Problem is the Evolv ITX has limited airflow and the airflow paths within the case are extremely limited. Top venting is not conducive to case airflow .. not unless the case design uses 1/4 rotation motherboard like SilverStone uses (and has patent on).

Why do you need 4.7GHz? "Serious OC'ing and quiet" do not go together.

NH-D15 is really a bastard child Noctua knocked up in an attempt at putting something out that is better than NH-D14. It ended up blocking PCIe sockets, so they bent the pipes to offset finpack and called it D15S. the NF-A15 1500rpm fan is nothing but a NF-A15 1200rpm on meth. Thermalright did the offset several years before and their TY-14x series fans (TY-140 & TY-143) started about 6 years ago. TY-143 move same amount of air at same noise levels ans A15 up to same 1500rpm, but keeps on going up to 2500rpm @ 130CFM .. and yes it does get louder. But I've found it to be a _fan_tastic fan. (no pun) except for it's colors. I ran a pair of them on my PH-TC14PE for years at 600-1100rpm .. with occasional higher rpm when stress testing overclocks.









Long story short, look at less or no overclock and ultra quiet cooling. Maybe Le Grand Macho, Macho Zero, TRUE Spirit 140 Power or TRUE Spirit Rev. A. TRUE Spirit 140 Power with TY-143 fans is about 8c cooler than NH-D14 .. which cools the same as NH-D15 with same fans.

Might be best to start a thread for this discussion. I'm sure there are others who with good suggestions who too. Then when you get done, post a synopsis of what you did and how it all works out in this thread for others to see and I'll add it to the 1st post index.


----------



## doyll

Combining Decibels
Combining Fans of same dB levels

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-spl.htm

Combining Decibels
Adding up to 10 Incoherent Acoustic Levels
Incoherent or noncoherent means the signals of the overdubbed channels are irrelative like a violin and a trumpet,
that means having no correlative relationship. Sometimes we say uncorrelated when we mean incoherent.
Given two incoherent sources their combined effect is the sum of their acoustic power
The decibel calculator can be used to combine the levels of up to ten incoherent (noncoherent)
electric or acoustic sources when the level of each source is known in decibels (dB).

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-spl.htm


----------



## Danzle

Sadly it's not easy to find any thermalright products here in switzerland. I could buy a HR-22 but coasts more than a NH-D15.

The front of the Evolv ITX comes with the 200m fan, but can hold 2x120mm (and radiator) or 2x140 (no radiator). I tought two 140mm would get me nice wind trough the cpu cooler and out the back. Since the CPU are pretested for 4.7GHz from the vendor (they of course ask for more money) i would run them at 4.5GHz~ for lover vcore. 4.7GHz is just the testet limit of the specific CPU.

I am impressed with the TRUE Spirit 140 Power. According to the testing of TweakTown it is just a brocken °C warmer than the NH-D15 but a DBa quieter...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Danzle*
> 
> Sadly it's not easy to find any thermalright products here in switzerland. I could buy a HR-22 but coasts more than a NH-D15.
> 
> The front of the Evolv ITX comes with the 200m fan, but can hold 2x120mm (and radiator) or 2x140 (no radiator). I tought two 140mm would get me nice wind trough the cpu cooler and out the back. Since the CPU are pretested for 4.7GHz from the vendor (they of course ask for more money) i would run them at 4.5GHz~ for lover vcore. 4.7GHz is just the testet limit of the specific CPU.
> 
> I am impressed with the TRUE Spirit 140 Power. According to the testing of TweakTown it is just a brocken °C warmer than the NH-D15 but a DBa quieter...


You are correct. My bad









Phanteks website used to show a complete specifications listing fan placement, radaitor sizes, etc. now it only has almost nothing in specs.







Why they removed all the data is beyond me.









I haven't see tweaktown review of Power. Their testing of TRUE Spirit 140 BW Rev.A is 0.5c warmer than D15
I need to test the TRUE Spirit 140 Rev.A under extreme load to see what it can do. At normal overclock it is pretty much the same as TRUE Spirit 140 Power.

I will say their testing to 0.01c accuracy is false. Their write-up of testing procedure doesn't have the word 'temp' in it anywhere (or 'temperature') so I have no idea what the cooler intake air temp is or how accurate that reading is. But if they are not monitoring and recording the cooler intake air temperature at the same time as they are monitoring and recording the CPU temperature the results are. flawed. How seriously I don't know, but even with their open frame test system I'm betting there isn't a snowball's chance in hell the air temp going into cooler is exactly the same as elsewhere in room.







I seriously doubt it is less than 1c different, and probably 2-5c differnt.
Here is link to TRUE Spirit 140 Power test results on an i7 920 @ 4.2GHz using TY-143 fan/s instead of stock TY-147 / TY-147A fan/s
http://www.overclock.net/t/1477785/thermalright-true-spirit-140-power/20_20#post_22111036

Changing from stock fan to TY-143 is 8.4c better cooler on [email protected] ([email protected] vs [email protected])
Adding a second TY-143 only give s 0.9c additional cooling. (9.3c vs 8.4c)
http://www.overclock.net/t/1477785/thermalright-true-spirit-140-power/240_20#post_23433671

But case must flow enough air to supply the cooler intake with cool air. TY-143 moves 130cfm .. that is the total flow of 2x PH-F140SP fans.


----------



## Danzle

*sigh* doing good air cooling isn't that easy.







That is why i tough first about an CLC and looked the X61 up since tests showed that this one is the quietest out of all CLC and the coolest. Don't know why but many test suggest that CLC are nearly as silent as air coolers or even better. I believe they don't have any restriction like filters or covers during test blocking a bit of flow.

Regarding the EVGA Hybrid cooler, that one isn't loud at all. I actually was able to listen to one during Crysis 3 at my former coworkers place and it's pretty much silent except the fan if run at 100%.

Now a question regarding noise dampening: Does the thickness of the foam/matts on the side panel have a high impact on noise reduction? Since the Evolv ITX has a 30mm gap in the top panel, i would like to use there 15-20mm insulation too.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Danzle*
> 
> *sigh* doing good air cooling isn't that easy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is why i tough first about an CLC and looked the X61 up since tests showed that this one is the quietest out of all CLC and the coolest. Don't know why but many test suggest that CLC are nearly as silent as air coolers or even better. I believe they don't have any restriction like filters or covers during test blocking a bit of flow.
> 
> Regarding the EVGA Hybrid cooler, that one isn't loud at all. I actually was able to listen to one during Crysis 3 at my former coworkers place and it's pretty much silent except the fan if run at 100%.
> 
> Now a question regarding noise dampening: Does the thickness of the foam/matts on the side panel have a high impact on noise reduction? Since the Evolv ITX has a 30mm gap in the top panel, i would like to use there 15-20mm insulation too.


Air cooling is not that hard to do. It just requires understanding the basic principles of airflow and takes a little itme testing and setting up fan placement and rpm profiles. One of the first few post in this thread gives a basic guide of how to do it.

The advantage of air is there is no pump noise at all, no bubble noise at all, no possibility of water leaks at all, not possibility of pump failure, and air cooled systems last way longer than CLC systems do. Only things to go wrong are not keeping system clean (CLC need to be kept clean too) and fans sometimes fail.. A fan failure is not expensive to fix, and system still works at low workload, higher workload if some stray fan can ge caught and taped on until replacement arrives.

Because of all the venting in a system, sound dampening the case is usually not very helpful. Think of it like a car exhaust system with muffler. You can be up close to the muffler and pipes and it's all quiet, but at the end of the exhaust pipe is not.


----------



## Danzle

I agree with all the benefits of air cooling, but it can be a hassle.







I just tought of the SST FT05 and how that could make a lot of things easier since it's fairly straight forward blasting air bottom to top. With Gaming G6 or Strix DCIII and their fin alkleignmend one could get good temps with nice acoustics. But well, would coast me 1K more for that system and i have no clue if i will have that budget.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Danzle*
> 
> I agree with all the benefits of air cooling, but it can be a hassle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just tought of the SST FT05 and how that could make a lot of things easier since it's fairly straight forward blasting air bottom to top. With Gaming G6 or Strix DCIII and their fin alkleignmend one could get good temps with nice acoustics. But well, would coast me 1K more for that system and i have no clue if i will have that budget.


I know what FT05 is. Nice case, but be careful what GPU is used. If the GPU heatpipes are too long on the down side they will not work properly.

No idea what your other two text/number combinations are.


----------



## Danzle

Gaming G6 and Strix DCUIII are the names of MSI's and Asus' GTX980Ti bzw the modelspecific coolers.





The fins go perpendicular to the FT05's airflow and would benefit not only in the fanless mode to keep the cards cool. Sadly there are no tests regarding SLI in the FT05.


----------



## PSILVA

a little help please, next month I will buy the phantek box pro m case along with phantek fan hub, I can connect my noctua nh-U12P not PWM and my four Noiseblocker M12-3 fans (not pwm also) to the fan hub and connect this to CPU fan connector on the motherboard and thus control the speed of fans by bios, that is correct?


----------



## doyll

*"Vertical vs. Horizontal Case Cooling"*
by Puget Custom Computers; Matt Bach; 09/08/2011
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Vertical-vs-Horizontal-Case-Cooling-89/page2

*The below is from the Q&A for the FT02 on Silverstone's site*. http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=242&area=en
There are two main types of heat pipes used in popular aftermarket coolers, they are groove and powder. Groove heat pipes are very susceptible to gravity while powder heat pipes are less so. To achieve best performance in either heat pipe technology, they need to be placed horizontally or have the heat source side located below the other end of the heat pipe. We recommend choosing and installing components with heat pipes carefully by taking into consideration of the following examples:

Motherboard:

The orientation of an enthusiast motherboard in a normal ATX case


The orientation of an enthusiast motherboard in the FT02


As the illustrations above show, most enthusiast motherboards with heat pipes will work fine in the FT02, the heat source is located below other parts of the heat pipe.
CPU cooler:
Horizontal style cooler


Good orientation Good orientation Bad orientation

Many CPU coolers can be rotated when installing on motherboards, the illustration here shows a SilverStone NT06-E

VGA cooler


The illustration here shows a VGA cooler that will not work well in the FT02 because the heat source side (touching the GPU) ends up being located higher than the other end.
See the Q&A for the FT02 on Silverstone's site. http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=242&area=en

I have seen some much more detailed data on heatpipe orientaiton in VGAs, but can't find it now.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Danzle*
> 
> Gaming G6 and Strix DCUIII are the names of MSI's and Asus' GTX980Ti bzw the modelspecific coolers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fins go perpendicular to the FT05's airflow and would benefit not only in the fanless mode to keep the cards cool. Sadly there are no tests regarding SLI in the FT05.


That cooler should be okay. The problem happens when pipes in the down position are too long and gravity slows or stops the wicking action that draws the liquid back to GPU chip. This caused the water to puddle in the lower end of pipe and do nothing .. meaning the heatpipe does not move heat away from GPU block.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PSILVA*
> 
> a little help please, next month I will buy the phantek box pro m case along with phantek fan hub, I can connect my noctua nh-U12P not PWM and my four Noiseblocker M12-3 fans (not pwm also) to the fan hub and connect this to CPU fan connector on the motherboard and thus control the speed of fans by bios, that is correct?


That is correct. Just keep in mind the case fans will only be changing speed dependent on CPU load / heat, not GPU load / heat.


----------



## PSILVA

Is there a guide how to setup the fan curve in the bios?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PSILVA*
> 
> Is there a guide how to setup the fan curve in the bios?


Asus has their own software package. No idea how well it works,but most of them work pretty good. They usually are an interface from window to bios so curves can be tweaked to perfection while doing our thing in windows. They don't need to be running exempt when changing settings. Most can even be removed completely after we are done tweaking.


----------



## rgrwng

thanks doyll, for the website calculator. it was really cool to use. i guess with 6 fans @ 26dba each, the total only comes to around 34dba . very nice!


----------



## Sethy666

I took doyll's advice and replaced the stock case exhaust fans with gentle typhoons and not only is it quieter, the airflow across the board seems to be much improved.


----------



## doyll

Thanks guys! Always nice to hear how info works out.








Much of what I post is what I found / learned from somewhere else on web.


----------



## Riktar54

Adding to the Thanks doyll!!

Following the ideas (adding a bottom fan to my case was AMAZING) in this guide, I now have a virtually silent computer while still being able to push my X5650 to 4 Ghz and my R9 290 to 1100Mhz all while keeping both under 60C while gaming/rendering/benchmarking/etc.

Idles temps are usually around 30C on the CPU, 35C on the GPU and (get this) 25C on VRM1 on the 290!!! While the Acellero Hybrid III-140 does utilize a fan/heatsink for the VRM1, adding the bottom fan to pull and direct cool air onto it has dropped the overall temp 15C.

Thanks again for your effort!!!!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Riktar54*
> 
> Adding to the Thanks doyll!!
> 
> Following the ideas (adding a bottom fan to my case was AMAZING) in this guide, I now have a virtually silent computer while still being able to push my X5650 to 4 Ghz and my R9 290 to 1100Mhz all while keeping both under 60C while gaming/rendering/benchmarking/etc.
> 
> Idles temps are usually around 30C on the CPU, 35C on the GPU and (get this) 25C on VRM1 on the 290!!! While the Acellero Hybrid III-140 does utilize a fan/heatsink for the VRM1, adding the bottom fan to pull and direct cool air onto it has dropped the overall temp 15C.
> 
> Thanks again for your effort!!!!
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Thank you for your testimonial. I really appreciate hearing what others accomplish when applying the principles of airflow to their systems.

If you notice any errors in what I've posted or have any suggestions on how to improve the content please tell me.


----------



## reset1101

Hi, I need some advice to improve my case airflow. You have my current PC specs in my signature.

Im planning on changing my case to a Fractal Define S. For the front of the case Im thinking about 3 Noctua NF-A14 FLX with silent setup in BIOS.

Inside the case, I usually install the PSU with the fan looking upwards. Besides that, I have a Noctua NH-D15S whose fan is set with LNA; according to Noctua, with LNA it has same specs as the NF-A14 FLX. This fan is also configured with silent profile in BIOS. And a 980Ti with an Accelero Xtreme IV at default speeds.

My doubts come when exhausting the heat out of the case. I would like to have positive pressure to keep dust out of the case as much as possible. So Im thinking about 3 possibilities (in all of them fan/fans would be configured with silent profile in BIOS):

- One Noctua NF-A14 FLX in the back
- One Noctua NF-A14 FLX in the back and another one at the top
- No fan in the back and 2 Noctua NF-A14 FLX at the top

Which fan configuration would you recommend?

Thanks a lot for your help


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reset1101*
> 
> Hi, I need some advice to improve my case airflow. You have my current PC specs in my signature.
> 
> Im planning on changing my case to a Fractal Define S. For the front of the case Im thinking about 3 Noctua NF-A14 FLX with silent setup in BIOS.
> 
> Inside the case, I usually install the PSU with the fan looking upwards. Besides that, I have a Noctua NH-D15S whose fan is set with LNA; according to Noctua, with LNA it has same specs as the NF-A14 FLX. This fan is also configured with silent profile in BIOS. And a 980Ti with an Accelero Xtreme IV at default speeds.
> 
> My doubts come when exhausting the heat out of the case. I would like to have positive pressure to keep dust out of the case as much as possible. So Im thinking about 3 possibilities (in all of them fan/fans would be configured with silent profile in BIOS):
> 
> - One Noctua NF-A14 FLX in the back
> - One Noctua NF-A14 FLX in the back and another one at the top
> - No fan in the back and 2 Noctua NF-A14 FLX at the top
> 
> Which fan configuration would you recommend?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your help


The first or just run with no exhaust fans, all unused PCIe back slot covers removed and D15 fans without LNA. A divider between D15 and GPU from CPU to in front of GPU cooler to keep it's heated exhaust from contaminating the D15's intake airflow. Use a thermometer as as explained in #5


----------



## reset1101

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> The first or just run with no exhaust fans, all unused PCIe back slot covers removed and D15 fans without LNA. A divider between D15 and GPU from CPU to in front of GPU cooler to keep it's heated exhaust from contaminating the D15's intake airflow. Use a thermometer as as explained in #5


Ok thanks a lot


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reset1101*
> 
> Ok thanks a lot


Please let me know what you find out and what works best. Feedback from all these setups helps me learn more every day.


----------



## reset1101

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Please let me know what you find out and what works best. Feedback from all these setups helps me learn more every day.


Dont worry, I will tell you if I end up using your configuration


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reset1101*
> 
> Dont worry, I will tell you if I end up using your configuration


Doesn't matter if you use my suggestions or not. Would still like hear how it ends up.


----------



## Klocek001

I know 200mm intake fans are genereally considered worse than two/three 120mm ones,so I wanna ask whether switching my 200mm 600rpm zalman fan (came with H1 case) for *this one* improve my case airflow ?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> I know 200mm intake fans are genereally considered worse than two/three 120mm ones,so I wanna ask whether switching my 200mm 600rpm zalman fan (came with H1 case) for *this one* improve my case airflow ?


No idea.

geggeg has tested a bunch of 200mm fans here. Maybe his results would help.


----------



## Klocek001

okay,so I decided against a fan upgrade and ccame to the conclusion I need a new case.
I really like nzxt h440 and it comes with 3x120mm intake fans. but do you think that the front panel on h440 can reduce the performance of those intake fans ? won't they "suffocate" ?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> okay,so I decided against a fan upgrade and ccame to the conclusion I need a new case.
> I really like nzxt h440 and it comes with 3x120mm intake fans. but do you think that the front panel on h440 can reduce the performance of those intake fans ? won't they "suffocate" ?


I have not used the NXZT H440 so not sure how good it is. Have you looked at Fractal Design Define S, R4, R5 or Phanteks Enthoo Pro, Enthoo Luxe? I think they are better, but don't know what prices are in your area.


----------



## Klocek001

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I have not used the NXZT H440 so not sure how good it is. Have you looked at Fractal Design Define S, R4, R5 or Phanteks Enthoo Pro, Enthoo Luxe? I think they are better, but don't know what prices are in your area.


the price is not a concern.
I can drop $250 as long as I get what I want, no less. And what I want is a case whose build quality is excellent and that is able to cool down two 250W GPUs with a high end CPU and provide space for a few SSDs and a few HDDs.
I assume for a case to supply enough air for two air cooled GPUs 2x120mm intake is a must, 200mm's don't cut it. 3x120mm is even better, not to mention 3x140mm like CM Mastercase.


----------



## Ashura

Hey doyll, I'm currently running stock case cooling with just 1 120mm (kama flow 2) on the lower hdd cage blowing towards my gpu & cpu.

If I put two 120mm front intakes, would it improve my intake? & if I put the 200mm fan as top exhaust, would it create a negative pressure?


----------



## Klocek001

200mm fans have hardly any pressure. They're decent as exhaust, but poor as intake. 2x120mm intake with 1x200mm exhaust is a very good configuration.


----------



## Ashura

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> *200mm fans have hardly any pressure. They're decent as exhaust, but poor as intake*. 2x120mm intake with 1x200mm exhaust is a very good configuration.


yes, I thought so too. Thanks.

2X120mm intake, 140mm +200mm rear & top exhaust. Negative air pressure?
Dust is a huge problem


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ashura*
> 
> Hey doyll, I'm currently running stock case cooling with just 1 120mm (kama flow 2) on the lower hdd cage blowing towards my gpu & cpu.
> 
> If I put two 120mm front intakes, would it improve my intake? & if I put the 200mm fan as top exhaust, would it create a negative pressure?


I suggest getting another PH-F140SP to use with the one that came with case as front intakes. Be careful about using top as exhaust. It will likely pull air up from GPU and pre-heat the cool air coming in the front on it's way to CPU cooler. Pro has good back venting. Remove all unused PCIe slot covers to allow even better front to back flow. and 2x 140mm front fans will be all you need. If you have extra 120s, add one to bottom as intake and one on back as exhaust.


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klocek001*
> 
> the price is not a concern.
> I can drop $250 as long as I get what I want, no less. And what I want is a case whose build quality is excellent and that is able to cool down two 250W GPUs with a high end CPU and provide space for a few SSDs and a few HDDs.
> I assume for a case to supply enough air for two air cooled GPUs 2x120mm intake is a must, 200mm's don't cut it. 3x120mm is even better, not to mention 3x140mm like CM Mastercase.


I'm happy with the build quality of my Fractal R5. I need a 5 1/4 bay for an optical drive which was one reason I chose it. Mine is setup with two front intakes, one bottom intake and one side intake. I followed doyll's recommendations to remove the extra PCI slot blanks and there is really good airflow out the back.

If I didn't need an optical drive, and could live with three HDD / two SSD then the Fractal S looks tempting. Setup for air the S will hold three 140mm front intake fans, plus a 140mm bottom and a if you go with a solid panel side another 140mm side intake. Lots of air in and it only needs a way out and it should keep the graphics cards happy.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ashura*
> 
> yes, I thought so too. Thanks.
> 
> 2X120mm intake, 140mm +200mm rear & top exhaust. Negative air pressure?
> Dust is a huge problem


You can tape the PSU filter to front bottom filter and pull both out the front to clean therm. I used clear packing tape on mine.




Sorry the pics aren't any better, but it's so simple.


----------



## zednor

Hello guys my system consists of . 5820K,EVGA GTX 980TI ACX,NOCTUA NH D15S with 2 coolers.I currently use 2x 140mm corsair SP140 in front due to filtering and the default phanteks fan for exhaust.Also i use as pull the 2 noctua fans on the cooler.
It is something like that

Is it good or should i add more fans like that to become more balanced?


Also if my fans arent good what are some good led fans to use?Thanks


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zednor*
> 
> Hello guys my system consists of . 5820K,EVGA GTX 980TI ACX,NOCTUA NH D15S with 2 coolers.I currently use 2x 140mm corsair SP140 in front due to filtering and the default phanteks fan for exhaust.Also i use as pull the 2 noctua fans on the cooler.
> It is something like that
> 
> Is it good or should i add more fans like that to become more balanced?
> 
> 
> Also if my fans arent good what are some good led fans to use?Thanks


I'm going to assume you had a Phanteks case, but which one? The PH-F140SP is a better fan than the SP140.
What exactly do you have?
What is your cooler intake air temp with full load on CPU and GPU? Posts #2 & #5 explain how to check cooler itnake air temp and setup case airflow.


----------



## zednor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I'm going to assume you had a Phanteks case, but which one? The PH-F140SP is a better fan than the SP140.
> What exactly do you have?
> What is your cooler intake air temp with full load on CPU and GPU? Posts #2 & #5 explain how to check cooler itnake air temp and setup case airflow.


Hello.Yes i have the enthoo Pro..I use 2x SP140 in front with the default air filter and 1 PH-F140SP as an exhaust..I will also add a Noctua nh-D15S with two fans intaking and an EVGA GTX 980ti ACX.I cant exactly test the temperature right now.Theoretically i am fine or i should add some fans on top as intake/exhaust??Also what fans with led can i add to replace the SP140?Do i have to go with non led ones for better performance?Room temperature is 25c for now but it goes to 35c on summer.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zednor*
> 
> Hello.Yes i have the enthoo Pro..I use 2x SP140 in front with the default air filter and 1 PH-F140SP as an exhaust..I will also add a Noctua nh-D15S with two fans intaking and an EVGA GTX 980ti ACX.I cant exactly test the temperature right now.Theoretically i am fine or i should add some fans on top as intake/exhaust??Also what fans with led can i add to replace the SP140?Do i have to go with non led ones for better performance?Room temperature is 25c for now but it goes to 35c on summer.


Read the post suggest and you should know what to do with top vents.
Phanteks PH-F140SP LED fans (same as your exhaust with LEDs) come in blue, orange, red, green and white.


----------



## zednor

I think i am ok? I got 185 cfm with my 3 case fans and component cfm is 150-170(2x a15 noctua on cpu cooler and acx cooler )Is it worth it to change my 2 front fans to phanteks one in order to have 240 cfm or will be fine as i am?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zednor*
> 
> I think i am ok? I got 185 cfm with my 3 case fans and component cfm is 150-170(2x a15 noctua on cpu cooler and acx cooler )Is it worth it to change my 2 front fans to phanteks one in order to have 240 cfm or will be fine as i am?


How are you coming up with these figures?
2x fans on a cooler only flow at most the maximum rating of one fan. Also specified CFM is free airflow, no restrictions at all. Now grills, no filters, etc.


----------



## zednor

So it is like 100 (55 from noctua a15 and at like 50 from gpu since it mostly works at 70%)from peripherals and like 120 from the 2 in front due to filters and the phanteks exhaust? Can you maybe help me calculate if i am still wrong?


----------



## Danzle

You only count Intake Fans when it comes to total fresh Airflow. Depending on your Filters and other Obstacles that limit Airflow you can range from 30-70% of Volume and Pressure. After managing to have a solid working Intake you will need to optimice Airflow and Exhaust. I think Doyll's TuT's should do the Job.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> How are you coming up with these figures?
> 2x fans on a cooler only flow at most the maximum rating of one fan. Also specified CFM is free airflow, no restrictions at all. Now grills, no filters, etc.


If cooler fans are running 70% than case fans should not be running any faster. My case fans usually run slower than component fans.

I have no idea what your actual resistance in on your intakes. I can guess atflow of fan on coolers being about 50-60% of rated spec. Few (if any) of us have access to fan airflow chambers to gather data, so we use a cooler or radiator and monitor airflow speed and/or CPU temp to compare fans.
I can say a typical bottom vent with 18mm clearance between case and what it sets on might be able to flow 40% of what a an is rated in CFM.
Same applies to filtered intakes.
A typical grill restricts at least 30% of a fan's airflow.

All of this is explained in this thread. 1st post is indexed with links. Click on topic to see it. If you are not willing to take the time to look at the index and read the relevant posts, I'm not willing to spend time trying to help.


----------



## Loladinas

I'll be visiting a friend in a couple of weeks and I'm going to be giving away some of the stuff I no longer use. He's been using some terrible plastic Cougar case that's falling apart, and here I have a CM Gladiator 600 and a whole pile of fans I'm not using. Since I won't have too much time to test and adjust stuff I thought I'd do some planning and asking around now.
Initially I thought I'd set it up like the picture I made, but looking at it made me think if the top intake and rear exhaust would form sort of a loop? The case would be sitting under a desk, and there's going to be something like 30cm between the top of the case and the underside of the desk. All intakes will have nylon filters over them, and the HDD cage will be removed. Drives will be mounted in the 5.25" bays. I also got him Cryorig H7 instead of the stock Intel heatsink he's been using.

TL DR;
Need a bit of advice on how to configure fans, this is what I'm planning to do.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> I'll be visiting a friend in a couple of weeks and I'm going to be giving away some of the stuff I no longer use. He's been using some terrible plastic Cougar case that's falling apart, and here I have a CM Gladiator 600 and a whole pile of fans I'm not using. Since I won't have too much time to test and adjust stuff I thought I'd do some planning and asking around now.
> Initially I thought I'd set it up like the picture I made, but looking at it made me think if the top intake and rear exhaust would form sort of a loop? The case would be sitting under a desk, and there's going to be something like 30cm between the top of the case and the underside of the desk. All intakes will have nylon filters over them, and the HDD cage will be removed. Drives will be mounted in the 5.25" bays. I also got him Cryorig H7 instead of the stock Intel heatsink he's been using.
> 
> TL DR;
> Need a bit of advice on how to configure fans, this is what I'm planning to do.


Ignore the top and side vents.
Concentrate on front to back flow.
Utilize 3x of the 5.25 front bays/covers as an intake (direct flow to CPU cooler).
Remove all unused PCIe back slot covers to improve flow.
Without experimentation, side vents are impossible to know if they will help or not.

Wedge a 140mm intake in 3x 5.25 bays using foam or bungee cords, tape, whatever you need to use. Looks like front of case is a mesh grill so should work quite well.


----------



## Loladinas

So;

Move the top intake fan to front
Block the top vent
Test temps with side intake connected and disconnected
Seems simple enough, thanks.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> So;
> 
> Move the top intake fan to front
> Block the top vent
> Test temps with side intake connected and disconnected
> Seems simple enough, thanks.


Don't need to block top vent.
Worst case is top and side vents may leak a little air in / out of case .. hopefully leak warmed air out. The trick is getting cool air to CPU and GPU without it being contaminated by heated exhaust air, usually coming off of GPU.
Often using speed controlled fan headers on motherboard so case fans cycle in unison with CPU and GPU fans makes a big difference.









I'm usually around, so if you have any questions during / after build is done, post them up.


----------



## Loladinas

Not much point talking about it afters it's done - I'll be over 200 miles away from the computer; and the owner is less "technically inclined"







I'm also thinking about flipping the PSU. I mean, It's probably not getting any air, trying to take it in through the honeycomb + a fine filter + wire grill + all the dust it inevitably sucks up. My friend has three cats, and there's just a lot of dust in his flat, in general so any open holes are kind of a no-no. I asked his wife to take a picture of his computer guts and this is it. Truly, a horror show.


and he even put RAM in the wrong slots


----------



## doyll

I thought there were laws protecting poor dumb computers from the likes of that. With that kind of dust buildup and abuse, no computer will perform and survive long, even in a filtered case. People like that wouldn't even keep the filters clean. I know, my wife is one of them too. If I don't clean system filters they never get done. I built her a really nice system (GA-X58A-UD3R, i7 980, Macho 140 cooler, GTX 580 Direct CU II in Define R2 modded with 3x 140mm intakes (2x front and 1x bottom) on castor base. Magnetic mounted filters with ribbon lead for ease of grabbing to pull of and clean, and indexing blocks for easy replacement). While building and placing at her desk I repeatedly told her to be sure she cleaned the filters every week and showed how easy it was to do. But after couple of months she started complaining it was running slow and crashing. When I check it, the filters were completely plugged.







I gave up and clean them myself now .. just bang them out on her nice plush office chair .. and see walks around with a dusty white back side .. and nobody ever tells her..


----------



## ltpdttcdft

This reminds me of some threads I saw on OCN a while back...
Guide: Building a "idiot-proof PC as possible" for friends/family
http://www.overclock.net/t/1507525/guide-building-a-idiot-proof-pc-as-possible-for-friends-family


----------



## turboman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> When I check it, the filters were completely plugged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I gave up and clean them myself now .. just bang them out on her nice plush office chair .. and see walks around with a dusty white back side .. and nobody ever tells her..


WE WANT PROOF. WE WANT PICTURES!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turboman*
> 
> WE WANT PROOF. WE WANT PICTURES!


You sound like a less than month old troll.








Sorry, but my mood when I found the plugged filters was more inline with building a guillotine than taking pictures.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ltpdttcdft*
> 
> This reminds me of some threads I saw on OCN a while back...
> Guide: Building a "idiot-proof PC as possible" for friends/family
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1507525/guide-building-a-idiot-proof-pc-as-possible-for-friends-family


CrazyElf posts good stuff.









Have you seen his http://www.overclock.net/t/1590547/why-you-should-probably-not-buy-a-clc-cooler/0_20


----------



## Contiusa

A doubt that I have and I could not find anywhere.

Situation 1 - my AF140 quiet edition as intake in a grilled honeycomb side panel (Carbide 300R). Moves a good deal of air and makes the whoosh sound of air passing through.
Situation 2 - the same AF140 quiet edition as an exhaust with the honeycombed grill in front. Moves little air and makes no whoosh.

I sense the honeycombed grill affects more the airflow when it is in front of the fan.

Question:

Would the static pressure fan be indicated for exhaust configuration and the air flow ones for intakes? Does the SP fan would fare better as exhaust since the honeycomb imposes an obstruction?
I never saw any post, thread or review addressing the position as intake or exhaust with grills. Since I noticed a big difference, there might be some different applications for SP and AF fans in these cases.

I do appreciate any feedback.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Contiusa*
> 
> A doubt that I have and I could not find anywhere.
> 
> Situation 1 - my AF140 quiet edition as intake in a grilled honeycomb side panel (Carbide 300R). Moves a good deal of air and makes the whoosh sound of air passing through.
> Situation 2 - the same AF140 quiet edition as an exhaust with the honeycombed grill in front. Moves little air and makes no whoosh.
> 
> I sense the honeycombed grill affects more the airflow when it is in front of the fan.
> 
> Question:
> 
> Would the static pressure fan be indicated for exhaust configuration and the air flow ones for intakes? Does the SP fan would fare better as exhaust since the honeycomb imposes an obstruction?
> I never saw any post, thread or review addressing the position as intake or exhaust with grills. Since I noticed a big difference, there might be some different applications for SP and AF fans in these cases.
> 
> I do appreciate any feedback.


Perceived airflow, what we feel with our hand, is usually misleading.
The grill on a vent means you are getting 60-70% of the airflow the fan has in an open area. This percent varies drmatically depending on what It's P/Q curve is. Fans with higher static pressure almost always move more air than fans with low static pressure. Read post #11, the P/Q stuff will probably help you understand this.

The temperature of air going into components is the important thing. I have not used a 300R, so I would rather not guess any more than I already have without knowing more about what the airflow and temps are now.


----------



## Contiusa

What puzzles me is that the same fan looks to have a very distinctive performance as intake and exhaust with the honeycombed grill. When I switched the position I figured that as an intake the fan has an air space in the back to pull air from, and as an exhaust there is the honeycomb right in front blocking the flow. Would not be the grill flow capacity, but the phisical restriction.

But on post #15 shows little difference in between intake an exhaust. I am kind of scratching my head here, because the difference in between my Corsair AF140 as an intake and exhaust is visible. Maybe the hand feel is misleading, but I could swear that as an intake it moves much more air.

I'll do some tests with the side panel open. I was even considering to buy two 120 fans, one SP and another AF to see which one fares better with the honeycomb in front.

Edit: well, stupid me







The top honeycomb is way tighter than the side one. Hence why the performance difference is so clear. It was my bad, sorry.

But I tested with a fan in the same honeycomb and I still feel that it fares better as an intake, but then I could call it almost subjective. Maybe I'll test with one SP and another AF to see the difference.


----------



## ltpdttcdft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> CrazyElf posts good stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen his http://www.overclock.net/t/1590547/why-you-should-probably-not-buy-a-clc-cooler/0_20


Yes, yes i did.


----------



## Loladinas

Work in progress. One intake for GPU and one intake for CPU.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Work in progress. One intake for GPU and one intake for CPU.


Looks nice. What are our temps like?


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Looks nice. What are our temps like?


What, in that case? No idea, it's the case I'm modding to give away to my friend. Cutting out the rear honeycomb grill at the moment. Already lined the inside panels with 5mm foam to cover up the redundant vents and (hopefully) reduce resonant vibrations by a bit.


----------



## Loladinas

Well, I think I'm done. Front and rear grills gone. Fan firmly lodged in the 5.25" bays. A bit of foam to cover up all the silly useless holes.


----------



## doyll

Looks like it will work very well.








With the front grills it even looks stock.








Look forward to hearing what the temps an noise levels are when it's all together.


----------



## Loladinas

I've already tested the noise. Those are a bit peculiar fans. Enermax TwisterStorm. They're silent enough, when set to 1500 rpm mode and run on 5V or 7V. They can push silly amounts of air when run at 3000 rpm, but then they sound like a hair dryer. I'll just have to play around a bit and find the an acceptable level of noise. Here's a test done by some italian review site https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrlBZgTWx9c


----------



## Frantik3

Is that top fan in the front attached somewhere or just stuffed in the foam frame?


----------



## Loladinas

It's just squeezed in there at the moment. Cut the foam plug slightly larger than the hole and it seems like it provides ample support fighting the compression.


----------



## Smanci

You folks get a chance to do some fine consulting now, like, in "fine" tuning. You know, whatever suggestions you have - anything but modifying the case and HW. Silence/quietness under any circumstances is number one concern and briefly after those comes good thermal performance.
GPU is fine as it is, but that rear fan emits clicking sound so I'd like a fan that emits very little to no motor/bearing noises till ~800RPM and performs at least as well as Slip Streams.
HDD is noisy as hell even though it's double suspended with rubber mounts. Before swapping it for an SSD, is there a 3,5" enclosure that could house two 2,5" drives?
Case has solid side panel with small vents in the front section.


----------



## doyll

@Loladinas,
Just for comparisons, here is my favorite high performance fan.
http://coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/1321-recensione-thermalright-silver-arrow-sb-e-extreme.html?start=4

And the slowed down version of same
http://coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/1619-recensione-thermalright-true-spirit-140-power.html?start=4

These should be coming out is square housing this month. At least that's my hope. I received samples from first production run about 6 weeks ago.

Smanci,
Have you tried runing without the back exhaust fan? Unplug it and see what happens. My guess is temps will change little if at all.
Really like how the TRUE Spirti 120i looks in your build.


----------



## Smanci

Thanks doyll for the suggestion and compliment.
The CPU will quickly start to get hotter, even after 10 minutes, if I lower the rear fan speed or unplug it. Those previous readings are after 4 hours of kind of heavy use..
The biggest issue however is that GPU temp stays the same since its targeting ~62C, but core clock is around 100Mhz lower. I don't mind the barely distinguishable sound of air moving but any kind of motor noises are a no-go. Seems like I have have a fan there.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @Loladinas,
> Just for comparisons, here is my favorite high performance fan.
> http://coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/1321-recensione-thermalright-silver-arrow-sb-e-extreme.html?start=4
> 
> And the slowed down version of same
> http://coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/1619-recensione-thermalright-true-spirit-140-power.html?start=4
> 
> These should be coming out is square housing this month. At least that's my hope. I received samples from first production run about 6 weeks ago.


Yeah, I've read about them and they seem like great fans, but sadly no vendor carries any Thermalright gear in my country. I've looked into ordering online but again, very few retailers, and those that do have them don't ship to my country. Shame really, I'd love me some of those fans and a Le Grand Macho.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Yeah, I've read about them and they seem like great fans, but sadly no vendor carries any Thermalright gear in my country. I've looked into ordering online but again, very few retailers, and those that do have them don't ship to my country. Shame really, I'd love me some of those fans and a Le Grand Macho.


Sure would be great if Thermalright was able to setup direct online ordering with reasonable shipping rates. But would still have to deal with customs duty and tax.


----------



## miklkit

I was housecleaning the other day and stuck my hand behind the computer case and noticed something odd. The exhaust air coming out of the case was noticeably hotter at the top of the exhaust fan than at the bottom of the exhaust fan. My exhaust fan is a Silverstone FHP141 attached to the HE01 cooler. I found this odd because one would suspect that the added hot air from the GPU would heat the air lower down more, and there is no way that GPU air could get all the way to the top of the case. Also, this was right after a many hours long gaming session where the CPU was running cool and the GPU was running flat out and warm.

This has me speculating that possibly the HE01 heat pipes aren't working to their optimal efficiency in the horizontal position. Could the lower ones be full of liquid and not doing much?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> I was housecleaning the other day and stuck my hand behind the computer case and noticed something odd. The exhaust air coming out of the case was noticeably hotter at the top of the exhaust fan than at the bottom of the exhaust fan. My exhaust fan is a Silverstone FHP141 attached to the HE01 cooler. I found this odd because one would suspect that the added hot air from the GPU would heat the air lower down more, and there is no way that GPU air could get all the way to the top of the case. Also, this was right after a many hours long gaming session where the CPU was running cool and the GPU was running flat out and warm.
> 
> This has me speculating that possibly the HE01 heat pipes aren't working to their optimal efficiency in the horizontal position. Could the lower ones be full of liquid and not doing much?


I doubt it's the HE01. If you have a remote sensor thermometer check the air temp around the CPU cooler and see what the readings are. My guess is it might be heated GPU exhaust flowing up against the case side to top and then back and out back vent. That would explain hotter air out of top of vent with CPU running cool.

But I take no responsibility for this kind of blind guessing.


----------



## miklkit

Using the WAG system is always risky so I will try to bring you up to speed. Here is a pic of my current layout. 

As you can see it is improbable that hot air from the GPU is getting all the way to the top of the case, especially with most of the case intake fans located in the center to top locations. Only one fan is located below the GPU. Overall case air flow is probably a bit more than you are used to also as 3 of the 4 intakes run at 100% all the time. The 4th one is usually running at 40% or so and is only cranked up in the summer and when stress testing. Even at 40% it moves more air than the F12s. Also that sound card gets surprisingly hot on its own.

I feel that the CPU cooler is pretty well isolated for those reasons which is why I'm now curious as to why this is happening. This is pure speculation BTW. While I'm in the market for a new case the HAF EVO will not fit on my desk and when I lay this one over on its side something becomes very unhappy and it shuts down with a black screen.

I am not picking on the HE01 and consider this question to be a generic one. I have also made up my mind to buy a blue Phantek cooler and mount the red TY143s on it. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. Why blue? Because it is $20 less expensive than the red one.


----------



## doyll

Maybe the HE01 is not working properly. You could try laying system on it's side and doing same gaming and see if vent has the same flow temperatures. But that doesn't prove it's cooler and not something else. I can't think of an easy way to determine the cause. I would think if the heatpipe coolant was puddling on low side the CPU would be running hotter than it is .. but again that is guessing.


----------



## miklkit

Well, I already mentioned that it doesn't like being laid over on its side, so that is out. And since temperatures are ok it seems the HE01 is still working ok. I can't believe the heat pipes would wear out and there are no leaks that I can see.

The temperature differential is an observed fact and I'm just scratching me head and saying whyforehowcumdat? So now I need a new case AND another cooler.


----------



## ltpdttcdft

Could it be warm air from the VRM area? Most fans spin counterclockwise, so exhausting air from near the motherboard would move upwards due to the rotation of the fan.


----------



## miklkit

Vrm heat? Hmm. The design of the VRM heat sink is such that it acts more like a wall blocking air flow than anything else. There is a lot of air being blown on the heat sink and it has to go somewhere. The rear fan is almost touching it so not much air can flow that way. That leaves the top and bottom. The bottom has the heat pipe blocking air flow so the air flowing around the top of the heat sink does sound logical.

Maybe it would be a good idea to remove the heat sink, take it out to the garage and clamp it into a vice, and get out the grinder and put a cutting wheel on it and cut some slots in it so air can actually flow through it instead of around it. The MSI 990FXA GD80 VRM heat sink is like that and it is by far the coolest running board around.


----------



## Frantik3

So I was thinking of making an acrylic or some clear plastic window mod for my small case(elite 110) from the side panel my GPU is sitting.
I want to have venting holes because the GPU fan will be 5cm behind it taking fresh air from outside.
I checked the part of this guide with the grill openings cfm and noise but I was thinking sth like a circle hole patern.

Any idea or data about noise/cfm with a pattern like this? Will it be adequate or is it worse than the rectangle pattern the elite 110 allready has?


----------



## MicroCat

Probably a little worse than stock. Do you care about dust filtering? If so, then I suggest cutting one larger hole and installing a low restriction dust filter in the gaping abyss. That would be my preference, but it's an aesthetic issue which wouldn't bother me as much as dust-free cooling performance. Finding transparent dust filters for a plexi window will be tricky.

You could try your planned mod and then when you need more cooling, pull out the dremel...;-)


----------



## doyll

What MC said.

I would use the most open design of grill mess possible. I would use no grill, just a nice filter like SilverStone or DEMCIflex sell. They even come in different colors
http://www.demcifilter.com/c53/Colours.aspx


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> I have also made up my mind to buy a blue Phantek cooler and mount the red TY143s on it. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. Why blue? Because it is $20 less expensive than the red one.


The price difference was even more drastic in Australia, about $50 more for the red model, no idea why, but I wanted it to match the TY-143's better (Which I still haven't bothered to get yet...) and the rest of the red in my build...the things I do for aesthetics


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> The price difference was even more drastic in Australia, about $50 more for the red model, no idea why, but I wanted it to match the TY-143's better (Which I still haven't bothered to get yet...) and the rest of the red in my build...the things I do for aesthetics


I sold my red 14PE for £40 complete including delivery. D14s' sell for £25 including delivery. It's a crazxy world.
Putting a 14PE in a TJ08-E must be a tight fit .. and a Morpheus too.








Would love to see some pics!


----------



## GHADthc

Oh it is! It's a bit of an art to get it all in and out, I need a ruler to go in between the side of the 14PE and the rear of the GPU's PCB to unlatch the stupid little PCI-E latch, whenever I need to get the card out of the system, and there aint a whole lot of space above the Morpheus for it to breath, I have used perforated Lian Li 5.25" bay covers and jerry rigged two 60mm fans up in the dual bay area to draw some more air in, in the hopes it feeds the Morpheus some more fresh air.

I am going to have to get a bit more creative to fit the SSD and HDD some place else in the TJ08-E, because I want to get a FM-181 (Decided this over the AP-182 due to it working better with radiators, I eventually want to get back into water cooling), and 3x TY-143's, the front TY-143 wont fit with the current placement of the HDD/SSD.

Here is the only pick I have of it atm, I would of taken something alittle better, but the rig is apart atm, because the mobo needed to be RMA'd unfortunately:


Edit: This pic is old and doesn't show the stock 290X heatsink bracket mod that I have done to the card, in this pic, half of the crappy little heatsinks had fallen off due to the terrible thermal tape...


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Putting a 14PE in a TJ08-E must be a tight fit


That case is surprisingly very roomy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> I am going to have to get a bit more creative to fit the SSD and HDD some place else in the TJ08-E,.


Something like this


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> That case is surprisingly very roomy.
> Something like this


It is a possibility, although the bays are taken up by a custom fan mount that I made that holds 2x60mm fans in there...I have seen someone here who mounted their HDD onto the side panel of their case, because they had so much water cooling gear going on..that is something I am considering at the moment, though the vibrations would no doubt get annoying, I will have to dampen/buffer the side panel some how.


----------



## doyll

Several years ago I mounted a couiple HDDs using Velcro tape Worked great at vibration dampening, but the Velcro doesn't like to 'velcro' apart when both sides are on flat surfaces.







But as the drives never needed to be moveed until I changed cases it really wasn't a problem.









I use lots ot TY-147, now TY-147A and TY-143 fans. Usually the TY-143 are on coolers with TY147 on case or TY-147 on cooler with TY-147A on case. With 3x intakes to supply CPU and GPU air, slower case fan speed is nice quiet while cooler fans can run faster / make a little more noise because they are better noise isolated than vent fan. We should be seeing the TY-147A Sq and TY-143 Sq later this month. At least that was what I was lead to believe a couple months ago. I have 10 of each on order.


----------



## Loladinas

So I caved in and ordered a pair of TY-143 fans. Shipped from UK they came out to about 13€ each, which isn't exactly cheap, but by no means overpriced. 140mm Noctuas go for 22+€ here, Fractal Design 12-16€, Corsair 14€, BeQuiet 10-16€...

Currently I was using Scythe Slipstream fans at 800RPM and while they're great at being very very quiet + no motor noise (and the temps are fine for daily use, stay under Δ45 C), I get something like Δ75 C on my 4790k when I hit it with AVX loads. I figured if TY-143s could actually go down to their advertised 600RPM they'd make a great replacement with a lot of headroom in cooling when needed.


----------



## GHADthc

By TY-147A sq you mean square framed fans? I really hope so, I think some of those would make incredible radiator fans.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> So I caved in and ordered a pair of TY-143 fans. Shipped from UK they came out to about 13€ each, which isn't exactly cheap, but by no means overpriced. 140mm Noctuas go for 22+€ here, Fractal Design 12-16€, Corsair 14€, BeQuiet 10-16€...
> 
> Currently I was using Scythe Slipstream fans at 800RPM and while they're great at being very very quiet + no motor noise (and the temps are fine for daily use, stay under Δ45 C), I get something like Δ75 C on my 4790k when I hit it with AVX loads. I figured if TY-143s could actually go down to their advertised 600RPM they'd make a great replacement with a lot of headroom in cooling when needed.


I'm sure you will love them. Make sure you use a PWM splitter with PSU power. They pull up to 0.6 amp each so it is not advisable run two on a fan header.

Funny you found them in UK. Last I knew there was no Thermalright retailer in UK, yet Amazon has TY-143 for £6.99 while TY-147A is £17.37
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> By TY-147A sq you mean square framed fans? I really hope so, I think some of those would make incredible radiator fans.


Yes, the TY-147A Sq is a square framed version of TY-147A.
I'm not sure how well the TY-147A will do on radiators. 1300rpm is not very fast, but the TY-143 Sq should do a great job on radiators. I need to test mine on my Cryorig A80. Building it now.


----------



## Loladinas

I think my motherboard has two 4pin sockets, that are both labeled CPU and controlled by the same PWM signal, so maybe I can get away without a splitter. I'll have to test and see if both are controlled equally well, or if it's one PWM controlled and one voltage controlled sockets.

That's where I ordered them from, Amazon. But I also found them on QuietPC.com, which is also UK based, albeit a bit more expensive.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> I think my motherboard has two 4pin sockets, that are both labeled CPU and controlled by the same PWM signal, so maybe I can get away without a splitter. I'll have to test and see if both are controlled equally well, or if it's one PWM controlled and one voltage controlled sockets.
> 
> That's where I ordered them from, Amazon. But I also found them on QuietPC.com, which is also UK based, albeit a bit more expensive.


Often the CPU_Opt fan header is a split off of CPU_Fan header.







I would hate to see you burn out a motherboard fan header when all you need to do is to run 12v power and ground directly from PSU to fan and the rpm and PWM from fan to motherboard. You can make up a splitter quite easily. The last drawing in like below can be 2 fans or 8 fans. All depends on number of sockets.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22689802

Any number of ways to use existing plugs and sockets from old splitters and fans. 3-pin sockets can be modified so 4-pin PWM plugs fit into them.
The PWM & rpm leads could be kept in 4-pin plug.
Plug into motherboard PWM headers
The 12v power and ground leads could be put into 3-pin plugs
Plug into a normal 3-pin fan splitter
Plug fan splitter into a molex to 3-pin adapter
Plug adapter into PSU.

If you need more detail I can help.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I'm sure you will love them. Make sure you use a PWM splitter with PSU power. They pull up to 0.6 amp each so it is not advisable run two on a fan header.
> 
> Funny you found them in UK. Last I knew there was no Thermalright retailer in UK, yet Amazon has TY-143 for £6.99 while TY-147A is £17.37
> Yes, the TY-147A Sq is a square framed version of TY-147A.
> I'm not sure how well the TY-147A will do on radiators. 1300rpm is not very fast, but the TY-143 Sq should do a great job on radiators. I need to test mine on my Cryorig A80. Building it now.


I have a project on the back burner, and I've been thinking about a black and white colour theme for it, picture 1920mm of radiator surface in an old Lian Li full tower, the speed doesn't concern me so long as they have a decent enough static pressure...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> I have a project on the back burner, and I've been thinking about a black and white colour theme for it, picture 1920mm of radiator surface in an old Lian Li full tower, the speed doesn't concern me so long as they have a decent enough static pressure...


The usable difference is TY-147A will run from 300rpm to 600rpm
Both run from 600rpm to 1300rpm
TY-143 runs 1300rpm to 2500rpm.

But between 600 and 1300rpm they perform identical, only difference is color. My many years old TY-143s do now have a slight ball bearing noise .. at least that's what I think it is. Not louder, but sound a little different than TY-147A at same speed. Other than that I cannot find any differences .. except as I said, color.







.. and of course the TY-143 uses more power, only a slight difference at low rpm, but definitely a lot more at higher speeds.


----------



## Loladinas

Alright, so I dropped off that case last Friday. Things were cleaned! Other things were repasted! It was all very exciting. His 3570k would be reaching max temp within seconds and throttle, running Prime95, now it's stable at a comfortable 60C. I think one of the push-pins on his stock heatsink mount was broken. The GTX660, after it was cleaned, repasted and had some proper airflow directed at it, dropped down from 80C+ to 65C running Heaven. Now, one thing that bothered me is his AsRock mobo putting 1.312V into his 3570k running stock turbo clocks, 3.8GHz. I didn't have enough time to give it a proper look and overclocking (or in this instance, undervolting) someone else's computer is just asking for trouble anyway. The temps are in check, and the whole thing is pretty quiet anyway. Not exactly silent, the one fan on the side panel is making a bit of noise, since it has to pull in air through a grill AND a fine filter, but it's still quieter than what he had before. I'd call it a success.

Sadly I forgot to make any screenshots or take any pictures of the completed build. I blame time constraints and beer.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Alright, so I dropped off that case last Friday. Things were cleaned! Other things were repasted! It was all very exciting. His 3570k would be reaching max temp within seconds and throttle, running Prime95, now it's stable at a comfortable 60C. I think one of the push-pins on his stock heatsink mount was broken. The GTX660, after it was cleaned, repasted and had some proper airflow directed at it, dropped down from 80C+ to 65C running Heaven. Now, one thing that bothered me is his AsRock mobo putting 1.312V into his 3570k running stock turbo clocks, 3.8GHz. I didn't have enough time to give it a proper look and overclocking (or in this instance, undervolting) someone else's computer is just asking for trouble anyway. The temps are in check, and the whole thing is pretty quiet anyway. Not exactly silent, the one fan on the side panel is making a bit of noise, since it has to pull in air through a grill AND a fine filter, but it's still quieter than what he had before. I'd call it a success.
> 
> Sadly I forgot to make any screenshots or take any pictures of the completed build. I blame time constraints and beer.


Sounds like a successful mission!








Now really, was it time constraints or beer?









I had my good old X58A-UD5 w/ i7 980 die the end of last week. After years of no problems I had not been backing things up in a timely manner (6-9 months) making it a major nightmare to get a new system up and running with all the things I normally use. Combine this with shortage of storage space and files I need I can't remember where I moved them .. changing OS from Win XP (I know it's caveman era) to Win 7 (I know it's still caveman era) means figuring out how to do things and work around problems has been a nightmare. Still have lots to do.

To compound issues, my new system does not have native support for USB2 (EHCI) (motherboard company does not say this) and finding out where/how to work around the problem took almost a full day (I don't have a sata optical drive and usb optical drives are USB2, as is Win 7 DVD & USB stick install). I was an 'interesting' weekend .. and not the kind of 'interesting' I have any desire to repeat.


----------



## Loladinas

Obviously off topic, but... Cars transmission broke down on my way there. While doing 80MPH on a highway. And of course it started snowing five minutes later. And I was nearly halfway to my destination. Got towed back home, had to find a new car. It set me back 4-5 hours. Time was very much a limiting factor


----------



## doyll

Not a nice way to spend the weekend for either of us.


----------



## CastleBravo

My weekend was a combination of both; Saturday was spent replacing the brakes on the car, and Sunday was spent trying (unsuccessfully) to resurrect the dead PCI-E x16 slots on my motherboard.

Now I'm stuck with a GPU-less z77 3570k system until I figure out if I want to replace an EOL motherboard (at double the price I paid new) or open the wallet for z170 + 6600k + DDR4 + Windows license.

I might bust out the old IP35-pro and q9550; I'm half curious how it would perform with my 980 ti.


----------



## Loladinas

Any news on those square framed TY fans yet? Actually, what's up with Thermalright gear; is it just me or did the prices in EU go up lately? Found a shop that would ship Le Grand Macho to my country, but it comes to 85€. Add a pair of 147A's and you're over 100€. That right there is some Noctua tier pricing.


----------



## doyll

They keep saying the square TY-147A and T-143 are already made but waiting for accessories to fill the boxes. I agree, it is taking a long time. I've been waiting over a month now to get enough TY-147A Sq for comparison testing of Enthoo Primo and Enthoo Luxe with stock and TY-147A Sq. They were supposed to be sending them without the boxes, but I haven't receive notice of being shipped yet.

Pricing I don't know. We have no current retailer here in UK now. USA has only 1 retailer. Canada has none. Thermalright main offices are in Taiwan, but there is also a partnership in Germany with website and all info.


----------



## XFighter899

***** now i dont know what to do, waiting for the square ty's or buy two second hand noctua NF-A14 PWM with 40 hours of use for 15 euros each.
I've been waiting years for the square ty's doyll knows








Decisions, Decisions.
On the other hand these TY's may come with a high price tag.

*Edit*: Purchased the noctuas for now as a intake fans for my fractal arc midi, and later i will acquire the square TY's, hoping that they will be released this year


----------



## killerfromsky

What do you think is the best fan for a Cryorig C1 in a jonsbo V3+? I think about getting a SF450 instead of a RM550x to free up some internal space, and will be able to upgrade the fan.

C1 has 120mm mounting holes, but adapter plates can be bought/lasercut if needed.

Bottom of the Jonsbo V3 will also have a fan hole for 140mm fan (120 and 140mm mounting points).
I would prefer both fans to be the same if possible.

CPU is a 6700, asus B150I pro gaming wifi/aura motherboard. Corsair LPX memory sticks.
Currently no GPU installed, but that might change.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *killerfromsky*
> 
> What do you think is the best fan for a Cryorig C1 in a jonsbo V3+? I think about getting a SF450 instead of a RM550x to free up some internal space, and will be able to upgrade the fan.
> 
> C1 has 120mm mounting holes, but adapter plates can be bought/lasercut if needed.
> 
> Bottom of the Jonsbo V3 will also have a fan hole for 140mm fan (120 and 140mm mounting points).
> I would prefer both fans to be the same if possible.
> 
> CPU is a 6700, asus B150I pro gaming wifi/aura motherboard. Corsair LPX memory sticks.
> Currently no GPU installed, but that might change.


Sorry, but I have never used or even seen the Jonsbo V3+. After looking at the literature on their website and a review, I have no idea how to make it work. To get decent airflow to bottom would require major modifications to give reasonable airflow through what they call 'vent' area and taller feet would be needed to give enough room for air to flow to a bottom intake. The back has very restrictive 'vent' area. There is no place for cable management that doesn't block airflow and 'vent' areas on sides, and sides are perforation is extremely restrictive.


----------



## killerfromsky

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, but I have never used or even seen the Jonsbo V3+. After looking at the literature on their website and a review, I have no idea how to make it work. To get decent airflow to bottom would require major modifications to give reasonable airflow through what they call 'vent' area and taller feet would be needed to give enough room for air to flow to a bottom intake. The back has very restrictive 'vent' area. There is no place for cable management that doesn't block airflow and 'vent' areas on sides, and sides are perforation is extremely restrictive.


Have a look in this thread and the posts I made near the end:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1477379/minimalist-steambox-htpc-ft-jonsbo-v3-small-form-factor-case/70

Bottom fan will be alright once I've finished the bottom plate.
I'm just wondering what fan I should use on the C1 if I get an SFX PSU (look at post 51).
I'm thinking of getting either the eloop 140 pwm, the noctua NF A15 or any of your suggestions.

Cable management will be a 24 pin and an 8 pin since I'll use m2 ssd and no gpu.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *killerfromsky*
> 
> Have a look in this thread and the posts I made near the end:
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1477379/minimalist-steambox-htpc-ft-jonsbo-v3-small-form-factor-case/70
> 
> Bottom fan will be alright once I've finished the bottom plate.
> I'm just wondering what fan I should use on the C1 if I get an SFX PSU (look at post 51).
> I'm thinking of getting either the eloop 140 pwm, the noctua NF A15 or any of your suggestions.
> 
> Cable management will be a 24 pin and an 8 pin since I'll use m2 ssd and no gpu.


With your design I suggest the TY-147A. How much room is there between case bottom and what it sets on? To supply a 140mm fan there should be about 35mm clearance. 35mm times the circumference of circle is about 154sq cm of area. The area of 140mm fan is 154sq cm.


----------



## killerfromsky

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> With your design I suggest the TY-147A. How much room is there between case bottom and what it sets on? To supply a 140mm fan there should be about 35mm clearance. 35mm times the circumference of circle is about 154sq cm of area. The area of 140mm fan is 154sq cm.


There will be about 15mm from desk to fan motor.
Im not going to higher the case up so much I think.

Is there much difference between the ty-147a and noctua nf A15? Because I cant find the ty 147 on sale in belgium/netherlands
Why not the eloops? All reviews have been great so far?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *killerfromsky*
> 
> There will be about 15mm from desk to fan motor.
> Im not going to higher the case up so much I think.
> 
> Is there much difference between the ty-147a and noctua nf A15?
> Why not the eloops? All reviews have been great so far?


You asked me what fan I think is best. I told you. I also explained the airflow area issue with the bottom, yet you say 15mm is what you will use. You want to use eloops, use them.
Good luck.


----------



## killerfromsky

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You asked me what fan I think is best. I told you. I also explained the airflow area issue with the bottom, yet you say 15mm is what you will use. You want to use eloops, use them.
> Good luck.


Given the size of the jonsbo it would look ugly to increase the height by another 20mm.
Im sure you can understand that..

I cant find those thermalrights for sale locally.
For other fans I really care about sound levels and sound 'profile'.
And both the noctua and eloops are reviewed with good sound levels/profiles.

But im always open for other suggestions


----------



## doyll

NF-A15 is a good fan, but no better than TY-147A


----------



## Lucas Lamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> NF-A15 is a good fan, but no better than TY-147A


They're both excellent and pretty close to equal on DC power. I'd give the NF-A15 an edge on PWM because the TY-147A clicks more loudly on PWM, though the NF-A15 is also bad. Of the fans I've tried, the best for PWM are the Phanteks MP and HP II series. They click in a narrow RPM range that can be avoided, and when they do click it's not super loud. PH-F140HP II is a particularly good value at $15 on Amazon. I have three of them running in my case right now, one on the CPU heatsink in PWM mode and two as front intakes on low RPM in DC mode. Very versatile fan, does everything well. It's 140mm x 140mm, so it can fit places that a 140mm x 150mm fan won't fit.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lucas Lamer*
> 
> They're both excellent and pretty close to equal on DC power. I'd give the NF-A15 an edge on PWM because the TY-147A clicks more loudly on PWM, though the NF-A15 is also bad. Of the fans I've tried, the best for PWM are the Phanteks MP and HP II series. They click in a narrow RPM range that can be avoided, and when they do click it's not super loud. PH-F140HP II is a particularly good value at $15 on Amazon. I have three of them running in my case right now, one on the CPU heatsink in PWM mode and two as front intakes on low RPM in DC mode. Very versatile fan, does everything well. It's 140mm x 140mm, so it can fit places that a 140mm x 150mm fan won't fit.


I know some have had click problems with almost all fans. Yesterday I check 5 or 6 different fans on my MSI mobo and could get none to click. This was after talking with a member having click problems with TY-143 in his build and going variable voltage to solve it. He ended up being able to get start voltage low enough that they idle at 300rpm using variable voltage control.

I've known for years that TY-143 rated 900-2500rpm will idle at 650-700rpm on PWM. I did not know the new TY-143 will idle lower. All of my TY-143 are older vintage, but my new TY-143 Sq (square housing) idle at 570rpm @ 20% PWM on MSI Z170 Mortar. I will have some of the new

TY-140 and TY-147 idle at about 500-550rpm and newer TY-147A idles at 300rpm. All of these are PWM controlled idle speeds.

TY-147A Sq and a couple more TY-143A Sq next week. I'm planning to comparison test the TY-147A Sq against PH-F140SP in my Enthoo Luxe and Evolv ATX as well as do some airflow and noise testing on A80 radiator.

Have you done any comparative testing of PH-F140SP and PH-F140MP? I'm curious to know how their airflow compares with normal resistance like a front grill and filter or radiator. Looking at their cfm and mmH2O specs I'm guessing their performance is similar in the 0.5-1.0mmH2O range.


----------



## fjordiales

@doyll

Any word on the US availability of ty-143 square? I ended up switching my fans around again... It started getting hot in AZ, will post updates after my 2x ty-143 gets delivered today.


----------



## doyll

I've always though Arizona was best in lat February, March and early April. Much earlier and it can be cool, much later and it gets too hot.









Nothing official yet. Hope the get everything together soon. I know fans have been made, that there were some problems with accessories and boxing, but sure seems to be taking a long time.


----------



## fjordiales

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I've always though Arizona was best in lat February, March and early April. Much earlier and it can be cool, much later and it gets too hot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing official yet. Hope the get everything together soon. I know fans have been made, that there were some problems with accessories and boxing, but sure seems to be taking a long time.


Here's the update.



*Intake Fans*:

Top = 2x NF-A14 iPPC-2000 PWM ***Might replace with ty-143 square variant when it comes out.

http://www.amazon.com/Bearing-Cooling-NF-A14-iPPC-2000-PWM/dp/B00KFCRMSG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460249200&sr=8-1&keywords=ippc

Front = 2x Thermalright TY-143

http://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-TY-143-High-speed-bearing/dp/B009QGHQ1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460249197&sr=8-1&keywords=ty143

Bottom = 2x NF-F12 iPPC 2000 PWM

http://www.amazon.com/Bearing-NF-F12-iPPC-2000-PWM/dp/B00KFCR5BA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1460249200&sr=8-6&keywords=ippc

*Exhaust*:

Rear = 1x NF-F12 iPPC 2000 PWM

http://www.amazon.com/Bearing-NF-F12-iPPC-2000-PWM/dp/B00KFCR5BA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1460249200&sr=8-6&keywords=ippc

All of them are connected to Swiftech 8W-PWM-SPL-ST 8 Way PWM Splitter-Sata with the TY-143 CPU fan as the main. Went through Maximus VI Formula forums and read that the "real" PWM connector is the CPU connector only.

http://www.amazon.com/Swiftech-8W-PWM-SPL-ST-Way-PWM-Splitter-Sata/dp/B00IF6R4C8?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

Also, it was 95 degrees F here 2 days ago. So yeah...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> Here's the update.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Intake Fans*:
> 
> Top = 2x NF-A14 iPPC-2000 PWM ***Might replace with ty-143 square variant when it comes out.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Bearing-Cooling-NF-A14-iPPC-2000-PWM/dp/B00KFCRMSG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460249200&sr=8-1&keywords=ippc
> 
> Front = 2x Thermalright TY-143
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-TY-143-High-speed-bearing/dp/B009QGHQ1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460249197&sr=8-1&keywords=ty143
> 
> Bottom = 2x NF-F12 iPPC 2000 PWM
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Bearing-NF-F12-iPPC-2000-PWM/dp/B00KFCR5BA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1460249200&sr=8-6&keywords=ippc
> 
> *Exhaust*:
> 
> Rear = 1x NF-F12 iPPC 2000 PWM
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Bearing-NF-F12-iPPC-2000-PWM/dp/B00KFCR5BA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1460249200&sr=8-6&keywords=ippc
> 
> All of them are connected to Swiftech 8W-PWM-SPL-ST 8 Way PWM Splitter-Sata with the TY-143 CPU fan as the main. Went through Maximus VI Formula forums and read that the "real" PWM connector is the CPU connector only.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Swiftech-8W-PWM-SPL-ST-Way-PWM-Splitter-Sata/dp/B00IF6R4C8?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage
> 
> Also, it was 95 degrees F here 2 days ago. So yeah...


Sorry to be picky, but you have way too much intake airflow potential compared to the exhaust potential. The maximum case airflow is the smaller of the two .. always. The maximum case airflow is limited by the the maximum flow rate of smaller of the two; intake or exhaust


----------



## Loladinas

Speaking of which, I tested my cooling with two fans on the heatsink and temps were exactly the same as with one fan on the heatsink. I tested it with a duct, and temps were the same. I tested with the fans running at full speed versus idle speed and the difference was 4 degrees. Side on/side off - no difference at all. I think I'm way more limited by my heatsink than by my fans.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Speaking of which, I tested my cooling with two fans on the heatsink and temps were exactly the same as with one fan on the heatsink. I tested it with a duct, and temps were the same. I tested with the fans running at full speed versus idle speed and the difference was 4 degrees. Side on/side off - no difference at all. I think I'm way more limited by my heatsink than by my fans.


Interesting. Strange, but interesting.









What was the CPU load and what temps did you get? 1x fan versus 2x fans on a twin tower usually makes a difference. Obviously CPU load makes a big difference .. which is why I ask.

D14 is a good cooler. I haven't used one in too many years to say exactly how good/bad it is compared to newer coolers, but from what I have seen it is still within a couple 3c of the best. But something does seem to be amiss. Typically mid-speed to full speed is not a huge difference, but idle to full speed usually is.


----------



## Loladinas

Prime 95 small FFT. This was with my "silent" preset - 4GHz, 1.05 vcore. With air temp at the intake being 17C, intake and CPU fans running at 100% I got 48C on the hottest core. Running them at 20% I got 53C. Running them "mid-speed", just below the line where the sound gets annoying I get the same 53C. I don't think noise is worth it in this case. I'll test my OC 4.7GHz @ 1.312 vcore sometime later.

Right now the first tower temp is 18C, the second 22C. Not that much of a difference.


----------



## doyll

At a guess the cooler has way more heat transfer than needed, and this is causing the added fan speed to make little to no difference. When I was running TY-143 on my i7 920 @ 3.8GHz I had similar temps. The differences between 1500rpm and 2500rpm were like 1-2c, but like you my CPU temp was 50-55c. Cooler was working so good I could unplug cooler fans and in normal use temps were below 65c. At 100% load it took like 10-15 minutes to reach 75c, and as soon as fan were plugged back temps dropped like a rock. It was the only way to get system hot enough to spin fans at full speed .. but only for about a minute. In about 3 minutes they were back to sub 1000rpm.







Even pushing CPU to 4.4Ghz temps were below 70c, but I keep it at 3.8-4.0GHz (can't remember exactly) for two reasons; noise and don't want to push motherboard too hard. System is now over 7 years old and still going strong.


----------



## fjordiales

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry to be picky, but you have way too much intake airflow potential compared to the exhaust potential. The maximum case airflow is the smaller of the two .. always. The maximum case airflow is limited by the the maximum flow rate of smaller of the two; intake or exhaust


thanks for the illustration. With that said, should I remove or flip the top fans? I have 2x silent wings 2 120mm here I can use as exhaust.

Forgot about the airflow vs airflow thing. Lol


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> thanks for the illustration. With that said, should I remove or flip the top fans? I have 2x silent wings 2 120mm here I can use as exhaust.
> 
> Forgot about the airflow vs airflow thing. Lol


Realistically, a 1.2-1.5 : 1.0 ratio of case airflow to component flow is all that is needed.
This means if your CPU cooler has a 120mm fan (single or stacked) you only need a 140mm case intake to supply it. A GPU with 2x 95mm fans needs 2x 120mm intake fans. You have good flow and pressure fans, so just the front and bottom fans are probably all you need. Remove all unused PCIe back slot covers to help front to back flow around the GPU. Using a remote sensor thermometer to monitor component intake air times compared to room is a good way to know if components are getting the cool air they need. Running case fan speed in unison wiht component fans insures case flows air as needed. 4th and 5th posts in this thread give the basics of how I setup a case's airflow.


----------



## TK421

D15 with Enthoo luxe. If case side open drops around 8c, maybe 9c.

Shame that this case only has 2 intake fans :|

Maybe I should flip the top fans to be intake?


----------



## miklkit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> At a guess the cooler has way more heat transfer than needed, and this is causing the added fan speed to make little to no difference. When I was running TY-143 on my i7 920 @ 3.8GHz I had similar temps. The differences between 1500rpm and 2500rpm were like 1-2c, but like you my CPU temp was 50-55c. Cooler was working so good I could unplug cooler fans and in normal use temps were below 65c. At 100% load it took like 10-15 minutes to reach 75c, and as soon as fan were plugged back temps dropped like a rock. It was the only way to get system hot enough to spin fans at full speed .. but only for about a minute. In about 3 minutes they were back to sub 1000rpm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even pushing CPU to 4.4Ghz temps were below 70c, but I keep it at 3.8-4.0GHz (can't remember exactly) for two reasons; noise and don't want to push motherboard too hard. System is now over 7 years old and still going strong.


Yes. Testing a cooling system at a mere 1.3 volts is useless in predicting how it will work at 1.5 volts. Look at these two stress tests. The hardware is exactly the same as well as ambients. The only thing changed was some bios settings. How could the first test predict how it would work in the second test?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> D15 with Enthoo luxe. If case side open drops around 8c, maybe 9c.
> 
> Shame that this case only has 2 intake fans :|
> 
> Maybe I should flip the top fans to be intake?


The Luxe cools just fine when case airflow is optimized. I ran i7 920 @ 4.4Ghz with GTX580 no problem .. no top vents used.

What fans, fan speed, and placement do you now have?
It is obvious you have an oven, not a case with even half decent airflow.
Read 5th post in this thead for starters.


----------



## TK421

NF-A14 on front (x2), back exhaust, top exhaust (x2, back/front)

Gentle Typhoon push / pull on middle top.

NF-A14 is running on 15%/46c - 60%/65c - 100%/75c
GT is running 21% on 45c - 75%/55c - 100%/60c


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> NF-A14 on front (x2), back exhaust, top exhaust (x2, back/front)
> 
> Gentle Typhoon push / pull on middle top.
> 
> NF-A14 is running on 15%/46c - 60%/65c - 100%/75c
> GT is running 21% on 45c - 75%/55c - 100%/60c


Sorry, but much of your explanation makes no sense, and saying 15%/45c means little.

I need to know what the rpm and also what is at 46c

What do you mean by "Gentle Typhoon push / pull on middle top."

Do you mean you have to fan on top and and a fan below top vent so on is pulling/pushing the other?

What speeds are CPU cooler fans running at same temps case fans are running?

Taking off side cover and having temps drop 8-9c means components are being forced to re-use their own heated exhaust air instead of getting cool intake air .. you case fans are either not moving enough air or not moving it properly.

I can help, but only if you explain exactly what you have going on. What slot your GPU is in, what fan combination it has, what speeds GPU and CPU fans are running as well as what speeds the case fans supplying them are running at the same time you are reading the GPU and CPU fan speed.

Is this the Titan you have? If it is, now much heated air is it dumping inside of case versus out the back?


Have you checked the air temperatures in case in front of CPU and GPU cooler intakes?

If you remove the PSU and cable cover, the bottom vent /s can be used as intakes too.

Are all HDD cages still in case or have you removed one?

So many things I have no idea about in your system makes it impossible to offer much in the way of suggestions.
I hope you understand.


----------



## CastleBravo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Prime 95 small FFT. This was with my "silent" preset - 4GHz, 1.05 vcore. With air temp at the intake being 17C, intake and CPU fans running at 100% I got 48C on the hottest core. Running them at 20% I got 53C. Running them "mid-speed", just below the line where the sound gets annoying I get the same 53C. I don't think noise is worth it in this case. I'll test my OC 4.7GHz @ 1.312 vcore sometime later.
> 
> Right now the first tower temp is 18C, the second 22C. Not that much of a difference.


A 31° to 36° delta is a significant increase. An extreme overclock that takes the full speed fan temp to 75° on the hottest core at the same 17° ambient would result it something like 84° at 20% speed. Given that there is a margin of error in these measurements, I am not that surprised you didn't detect a difference between single and dual fan at a low power overclock.


----------



## Loladinas

And fan speed still isn't going to be the limiting factor. While not a proper test, to illustrate my point, I ran a short (10 minutes) run of small FFT with CPU set up at 4.7GHz, 1.328v (again, not necessarily the best overclock, just something to produce heat), with one fan running full speed. At the end of 10 minutes the second towers temperature was 27C, hottest core was 89C. Intake was 20C. Did the same with two fans. Second towers temperature dropped to 22C. Hottest core dropped to 87C. When I dropped the fan speeds to idle the temperatures quickly crept up to 99C on the hottest core, and 34C inside the heatsink. While 12 degrees difference is definitely significant, heat transfer from core to the heatsink is still the limiting factor in its usability, not the speed or the number of the fans.

TL DR; I agree with you, but it doesn't matter.


----------



## CastleBravo

I suspect I ran into a similar limit with my TRUE Spirit 140 Power on my 5820k. It seemed like I hit a wattage dissipation wall at higher vcore where I suspect the heatpipes couldn't keep up. I tested with 1300 rpm fan and 2500 rpm (ty-143), and I found a larger temp difference at a lower Vcore than I did at a higher Vcore (the opposite of what you would expect).


----------



## Loladinas

Seems like it. The only time I actually had the heatpipes "hot" was when I tried running the heatsink completely fanless. Despite the low voltage the temperature slowly crept up to ~55C (measured at the top of the heatpipes) and stabilized there. Mind you I'm not ruling out there's something wrong with my TIM application, but I'm not willing to remount for several tries at this point. I'm using CLP on the die and Kryonaut on the heatspreader.


----------



## CastleBravo

I just posted some testing results of my 140 Power vs H110i GT vs custom loop; the air cooler at a loud 2500 rpm was ~9° C hotter than the H110 at a reasonable 1600 rpm, and 13° C hotter than the custom loop.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CastleBravo*
> 
> I just posted some testing results of my 140 Power vs H110i GT vs custom loop; the air cooler at a loud 2500 rpm was ~9° C hotter than the H110 at a reasonable 1600 rpm, and 13° C hotter than the custom loop.


Did you monitor your cooler and radiator intake air temp?


----------



## CastleBravo

I had previously measured the 140 Power intake temp at 1° delta from outside ambient with the exact same setup, so I know case airflow wasn't a limiting factor. When I stuck my "outdoor" temp probe under the case where the radiator intake is, I actually saw the same 1° delta with the water cooling setups. This was a bit surprising because I had intentionally blocked off all other openings on the bottom of the case to prevent recirculation through the radiator.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> And fan speed still isn't going to be the limiting factor. While not a proper test, to illustrate my point, I ran a short (10 minutes) run of small FFT with CPU set up at 4.7GHz, 1.328v (again, not necessarily the best overclock, just something to produce heat), with one fan running full speed. At the end of 10 minutes the second towers temperature was 27C, hottest core was 89C. Intake was 20C. Did the same with two fans. Second towers temperature dropped to 22C. Hottest core dropped to 87C. When I dropped the fan speeds to idle the temperatures quickly crept up to 99C on the hottest core, and 34C inside the heatsink. While 12 degrees difference is definitely significant, heat transfer from core to the heatsink is still the limiting factor in its usability, not the speed or the number of the fans.
> 
> TL DR; I agree with you, but it doesn't matter.


My experiences are airflow through finpacks does not get hot. If it does, the heatpipes are maxed out. The phase change and wicking action of heatpipes depends on them not getting too hot. If we assume the boiling point in a heatpipe is about 30c at CPU, the outer ends have to be well below that them to condense the gas back into liquid.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CastleBravo*
> 
> I had previously measured the 140 Power intake temp at 1° delta from outside ambient with the exact same setup, so I know case airflow wasn't a limiting factor. When I stuck my "outdoor" temp probe under the case where the radiator intake is, I actually saw the same 1° delta with the water cooling setups. This was a bit surprising because I had intentionally blocked off all other openings on the bottom of the case to prevent recirculation through the radiator.


Sorry to be blunt, but you do not know case airflow was not a factor. We only know the intake on the TRUE Spirit 140 Power and radiator intakes were 1c above room when you monitored them. Your assumption that that all testing had the same delta if just that, an assumption. We should be monitoring only cooler / radiator intake temp and forget about room ambient. There is no reason for room ambient to be considered at all.


----------



## CastleBravo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry to be blunt, but you do not know case airflow was not a factor. We only know the intake on the TRUE Spirit 140 Power and radiator intakes were 1c above room when you monitored them. Your assumption that that all testing had the same delta if just that, an assumption. We should be monitoring only cooler / radiator intake temp and forget about room ambient. There is no reason for room ambient to be considered at all.


Ambient was measured at the bottom of the chassis where I had two fans pulling in air and blowing it into the CPU cooler a couple inches away. Previous testing I explained to you in another thread showed that cooler intake temp was 1° above the temp measured at case bottom intake. This setup was IMO as close to ideal as is possible for that heat sink. Any difference in temp between ambient and cooler intake in my test is IMO a limitation of CPU air cooling in general that can only be counteracted by running your computer on a test bench outside a normal chassis.


----------



## doyll

I'll say it again, room ambient is not important. There is no reason to use it in the calculation. Use cooler / radiator intake and CPU / GPU temp. These are the critical temperature. While the room ambient effects cooler / ambient intake, it is not relevant to cooler / radiator cooling ability.

I know it's semantics, but we need to educate people to not use room air temp when trying to determine how well their cooler is working.


----------



## CastleBravo

I understand what you are saying, but my intention was to compare cooler performance in a real-world scenario mounted in my chassis. If the air cooler suffered a 1-2° disadvantage, this is due to a limitation of CPU air coolers inside tower chassis in general. In fact, I suspect the majority of people looking at these forums would not achieve a case intake to cooler intake delta as low as I did, so for them the water cooling solutions may have an even greater performance advantage.


----------



## Goodcharly

Thank you very much Doyll, reading your work was a big step for me!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CastleBravo*
> 
> I understand what you are saying, but my intention was to compare cooler performance in a real-world scenario mounted in my chassis. If the air cooler suffered a 1-2° disadvantage, this is due to a limitation of CPU air coolers inside tower chassis in general. In fact, I suspect the majority of people looking at these forums would not achieve a case intake to cooler intake delta as low as I did, so for them the water cooling solutions may have an even greater performance advantage.


Again I'll be blunt.
The only 'real world' involved is yours .. becasue the case airflow of your system's 'world' is it's own. I doubt if there is another like your in the universe. You have very good airflow and intake to exhaust separation .. much better than 9999 out of 10000 systems in the universe.









The people like you, Loladinas, you, miklkit, etc.and I are the exception. Most have no idea what their system air temps are. They put 7 or 8 fan in a case and 'claim' to have good airflow.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Goodcharly*
> 
> Thank you very much Doyll, reading your work was a big step for me!


Thanks! Glad you like it.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask them. There are several people here who are knowledgeable. i'm just the fanatical one wearing the 'air is all powerful' sign and preached about it.


----------



## miklkit

I see where the intakes are in that case but I see no exhaust route. Both the CPU and GPU are pushing their hot air into the middle of the case. Then what? Does it just sit there?


----------



## CastleBravo

If you are talking about mine, the case is a Corsair 600C, and all air flows out the back through the PSU, the removed pci-e slot covers, the blank 140mm fan mount, the various vent holes, and the motherboard I/O area where I left the shield uninstalled. The bottom and front intake areas around the fans are sealed with tape to minimize recirculation. The heat sink is gone now and replaced with a 280mm rad on the bottom with fans on top pulling through the radiator into the case.


----------



## miklkit

It's too bad the heat sink wasn't rotated so it could blow its hot air out the back instead of onto the GPU and then ?????


----------



## CastleBravo

The 140 Power obstructs the first PCI-E slot, but I don't think it would have made a difference due to it being fed clean air from the bottom intake. On my old z77 motherboard where the first slot was an x1 and I had room to rotate it, I tested both orientations and saw no difference; that was on a 3570k vs the 5820k I run now however. If anything, I still would have preferred having the CPU blowing air onto the back of the GPU.


----------



## Kashtan

Prompt please what is the most efficient cooler if regular change props on Noctua NF-A14 3000 - 3 pieces.
choose between
PH-TC14PE
Noctua D15s
Silver Arrow
Your option.
Noise is nothing. Performance - way.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kashtan*
> 
> Prompt please what is the most efficient cooler if regular change props on Noctua NF-A14 3000 - 3 pieces.
> choose between
> PH-TC14PE
> Noctua D15s
> Silver Arrow
> Your option.
> Noise is nothing. Performance - way.


If noise is not a consideration, HE01 or Silver Arrow SB-E or IB-E Extreme. The have the most powerful fans. But your case MUST FLOW MORE AIR THAN COOLER FANS DO or the case heats up and so does everything else. A cooler is only as good as the temperature of air going into it. If it does not have cool air it will not cool properly.


----------



## Kashtan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> If noise is not a consideration, HE01 or Silver Arrow SB-E or IB-E Extreme. The have the most powerful fans. But your case MUST FLOW MORE AIR THAN COOLER FANS DO or the case heats up and so does everything else. A cooler is only as good as the temperature of air going into it. If it does not have cool air it will not cool properly.


Thanks, its important info for me.
But I'm interested in is not the most efficient cooler with stock fans. I plan to replace them with on most performance in the 140 mm caliber like Noctua NF-A14 3000 - most performance fans - 159 cfm.
Thanks,


----------



## miklkit

What motherboard and case are you using?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> If noise is not a consideration, HE01 or Silver Arrow SB-E or IB-E Extreme. The have the most powerful fans. But your case MUST FLOW MORE AIR THAN COOLER FANS DO or the case heats up and so does everything else. A cooler is only as good as the temperature of air going into it. If it does not have cool air it will not cool properly.


While I haven't been able to get one to test, the Apenfohn Olymp reviews are indicating it is the best cooler right now.

But just to be clear, your obsession with high speed / high flow fans is not based on reality, but myth. While 3000rpm is functional, at some point the air speed will become the heat source.









You might find this bit of testing of interest.

The fans used in it are
120mm (25mm):
Nidec Servo Gentle Typhoon AP-15 (1850rpm)
Delta AFB1212SH (3300rpm)
120mm (38mm)
Nidec BetaV TA450DC (4000rpm)
Foxconn PV123812DSPF (3000rpm)
San Ace 9SG1212P1G01 (6000rpm) The fastest & most powerful fan I own
140mm
NZXT Kraken Fans
Thermalright TY-143



http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=301733


----------



## Kashtan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> What motherboard and case are you using?


N68C-GS FX - but it does not matter, I'm planning a new system, processor, motherboard, memory and cooling system. I have not decided definitively.
The case - Chieftec Mesh Full Tower. 19 kilos empty.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> What motherboard and case are you using?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> While I haven't been able to get one to test, the Apenfohn Olymp reviews are indicating it is the best cooler right now.
> 
> But just to be clear, your obsession with high speed / high flow fans is not based on reality, but myth. While 3000rpm is functional, at some point the air speed will become the heat source.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might find this bit of testing of interest.
> 
> The fans used in it are
> 120mm (25mm):
> Nidec Servo Gentle Typhoon AP-15 (1850rpm)
> Delta AFB1212SH (3300rpm)
> 120mm (38mm)
> Nidec BetaV TA450DC (4000rpm)
> Foxconn PV123812DSPF (3000rpm)
> http://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.php/artikel/hardware/kuehlung/37506-dual-tower-alpenfoehn-olymp-test.html?start=7(6000rpm) The fastest & most powerful fan I own
> 140mm
> NZXT Kraken Fans
> Thermalright TY-143




http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=301733

Great articles, thanks!
Olymp vs D15 - 64 vs 62 temps.In stock fans.
The Alpenfoehn Olymp is shipped with two WingBoost 123.38 m3 of air per hour. Noctua NH-D15 (140.2 m3/h).
Great.
http://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.php/artikel/hardware/kuehlung/37506-dual-tower-alpenfoehn-olymp-test.html?start=7
On reference fans Olymp win Noctua D15S - 51 -49.
PH-TC14PE on reference fans win D15 - 65-64.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/noctua-nh-d15_5.html#sect0
Olymp best.
Excellent.

San Ace 9SG1212P1G01. He impressed me.
Although it is so loud that it can even be a problem for me - 64 dB, but 260 cfm make you think.
Thanks.


----------



## miklkit

I was trying to find out how much room you have as many motherboards don't have much clearance for wide coolers.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kashtan*
> 
> N68C-GS FX - but it does not matter, I'm planning a new system, processor, motherboard, memory and cooling system. I have not decided definitively.
> The case - Chieftec Mesh Full Tower. 19 kilos empty.
> 
> Great articles, thanks!
> Olymp vs D15 - 64 vs 62 temps.In stock fans.
> The Alpenfoehn Olymp is shipped with two WingBoost 123.38 m3 of air per hour. Noctua NH-D15 (140.2 m3/h).
> Great.
> http://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.php/artikel/hardware/kuehlung/37506-dual-tower-alpenfoehn-olymp-test.html?start=7
> On reference fans Olymp win Noctua D15S - 51 -49.
> PH-TC14PE on reference fans win D15 - 65-64.
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/noctua-nh-d15_5.html#sect0
> Olymp best.
> Excellent.
> 
> San Ace 9SG1212P1G01. He impressed me.
> Although it is so loud that it can even be a problem for me - 64 dB, but 260 cfm make you think.
> Thanks.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kashtan*
> 
> N68C-GS FX - but it does not matter, I'm planning a new system, processor, motherboard, memory and cooling system. I have not decided definitively.
> The case - Chieftec Mesh Full Tower. 19 kilos empty.
> 
> Great articles, thanks!
> Olymp vs D15 - 64 vs 62 temps.In stock fans.
> The Alpenfoehn Olymp is shipped with two WingBoost 123.38 m3 of air per hour. Noctua NH-D15 (140.2 m3/h).
> Great.
> http://www.hardwareluxx.ru/index.php/artikel/hardware/kuehlung/37506-dual-tower-alpenfoehn-olymp-test.html?start=7
> On reference fans Olymp win Noctua D15S - 51 -49.
> PH-TC14PE on reference fans win D15 - 65-64.
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/noctua-nh-d15_5.html#sect0
> Olymp best.
> Excellent.
> 
> San Ace 9SG1212P1G01. He impressed me.
> Although it is so loud that it can even be a problem for me - 64 dB, but 260 cfm make you think.
> Thanks.


There are some other reviews out there of Olymp
http://www.mod-your-case.de/index.php?forum2-showposts2-1030

http://extreme.pcgameshardware.de/luftkuehlung/428218-review-alpenfoehn-olymp-olympische-

http://gamezoom.net/artikel/Alpenf_hn_Olymp_Test_Review-35489-2

Here is dimensional drawing of Olymp Sorry I don't have more details, but I have not been able to get and Olymp to measure and test.


----------



## Kashtan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> I was trying to find out how much room you have as many motherboards don't have much clearance for wide coolers.


Thank you for your attention - in fact, in recent years people are interested in a compact casing, small motherboards. But I uncompromising follower.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> There are some other reviews out there of Olymp
> http://www.mod-your-case.de/index.php?forum2-showposts2-1030
> 
> http://extreme.pcgameshardware.de/luftkuehlung/428218-review-alpenfoehn-olymp-olympische-
> 
> http://gamezoom.net/artikel/Alpenf_hn_Olymp_Test_Review-35489-2
> 
> Here is dimensional drawing of Olymp Sorry I don't have more details, but I have not been able to get and Olymp to measure and test.


Thank you.


----------



## TK421

I have enthoo luxe, should I setup the top fans to be sucking air in?

2x NFA14 front
2x NFA14 top, 2x GT1850 push/pull
1x NFA14 rear

Fan curve NFA14
Idle at 360rpm until cpu hits 46
46-70 ramp to 65% (or was it 70%)
70-75 ramp to 100%
Same as CPU fan


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> I have enthoo luxe, should I setup the top fans to be sucking air in?
> 
> 2x NFA14 front
> 2x NFA14 top, 2x GT1850 push/pull
> 1x NFA14 rear
> 
> Fan curve NFA14
> Idle at 360rpm until cpu hits 46
> 46-70 ramp to 65% (or was it 70%)
> 70-75 ramp to 100%
> Same as CPU fan


"2x NFA14 top, 2x GT1850 push/pull" .. 2x 140mm fans and 2x 120mm fans in push/pull?









With all the heat your GPU is making I would probably not use top vents at all and remove all unused PCIe back slot covers. When stress testing,what is the CPU cooler intake air temperature compared to room air temperature? What is GPU cooler intake air temp? We what both coolers to be ingesting air that is only 3-5c warmer than room air.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> "2x NFA14 top, 2x GT1850 push/pull" .. 2x 140mm fans and 2x 120mm fans in push/pull?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all the heat your GPU is making I would probably not use top vents at all and remove all unused PCIe back slot covers. When stress testing,what is the CPU cooler intake air temperature compared to room air temperature? What is GPU cooler intake air temp? We what both coolers to be ingesting air that is only 3-5c warmer than room air.


Sorry

Top has 2x NF-A14, used as exhaust
Top also has 2x GT1850 exhausting from a gpu radiator (titan x)

When idle my cpu temp is 40-42, less. Fans at 360rpm. Airflow not very optimal since there's only one intake point (front, obstructed by hdd).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Sorry
> 
> Top has 2x NF-A14, used as exhaust
> Top also has 2x GT1850 exhausting from a gpu radiator (titan x)
> 
> When idle my cpu temp is 40-42, less. Fans at 360rpm. Airflow not very optimal since there's only one intake point (front, obstructed by hdd).


That makes more sense. The GPU is not heating CPU cooler air much with the radiator exhausting.
What is in front as intake?
Your top 140mm fans are not making any difference in temps. 5x 140mm + 2x GT case fans is likely more than needed, but if they are running quiet no problem. Maybe increase CPU cooler idle to lower CPU & motherboard temps a little.


----------



## Cakewalk_S

So it seems the PWM function of my ASRock Z77E-ITX board sucks... I just got my PWM Arctic Cooling F12 fan and hooked it up this morning. Max RPM of the fan is ~1450rpm @ 100%. That's no problem. I switch the PWM in the bios to "level 1" which is the lowest and the temp target at 45C. The lowest RPM i get is 1050RPM.... that's like 50% PWM supposedly.

Anyone know of a fix? Maybe I have to change the "Temp target"????
Here's a quick pic of the bios that someone took...


It's not that big of a deal since even at 1050RPM the noise is pretty darn low..I was just expecting a lower RPM. Also, the time it takes the fan to ramp up and down is REALLY slow... Like I'll hit 65C in prime95 and the fan will still be around 1150rpm and it'll take a few minutes to get to 1450rpm...


----------



## Loladinas

Sadly, no. I too found fan control options of my motherboard lacking. The cheapest (free) solution is to use Speedfan and set a custom fan curve. Or you can buy a fan controller.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> That makes more sense. The GPU is not heating CPU cooler air much with the radiator exhausting.
> What is in front as intake?
> Your top 140mm fans are not making any difference in temps. 5x 140mm + 2x GT case fans is likely more than needed, but if they are running quiet no problem. Maybe increase CPU cooler idle to lower CPU & motherboard temps a little.


So you recommend removing the top fans and just running the radiator?

Front intake NF-A14 2x


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> So you recommend removing the top fans and just running the radiator?
> 
> Front intake NF-A14 2x


I would unplug them and see what temps do. Maybe try one in bottom as intake with PSU cover removed.
Experiment and see what works best.

Don't do more than you want to do. If you are satisfied with the temperatures and noise levels as they are now, call it good and stop.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I would unplug them and see what temps do. Maybe try one in bottom as intake with PSU cover removed.
> Experiment and see what works best.
> 
> Don't do more than you want to do. If you are satisfied with the temperatures and noise levels as they are now, call it good and stop.


Problem is that my GPU gets hotter than normal.

On open air and max voltage 1.274v, the temps are around 65c.
On new case (this case) the temps on 1.212v are around 60-65c. 1.274v on new case brings to 75~c which I am not comfortable with.

Maybe I'm choking the radiator out of air?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Problem is that my GPU gets hotter than normal.
> 
> On open air and max voltage 1.274v, the temps are around 65c.
> On new case (this case) the temps on 1.212v are around 60-65c. 1.274v on new case brings to 75~c which I am not comfortable with.
> 
> Maybe I'm choking the radiator out of air?


Sound possible. If that is true, unplugging the 2x 140m top exhaust might help GPU cooling. If unplugging does not help, try increasing front intake fan speed and/or removing the PSU cover and lust laying one of the top 140mm fans in bottom on the vent as an intake to see what it does.

You have 2x 140mm intakes with filters and 3x 140mm exhausts with no filter plust the 120mm stacked fans on radiator. More exhaust than intake. The maximum flow of the case is the smaller of the two, so the exhaust can only be flowing as much as the intakes can supply.
Does that make any sense to you?

All of these are just possible ways to help. Without knowing what the GPU radiator intake air temp is means we don't know if that air temp is higher than it should be or not.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sound possible. If that is true, unplugging the 2x 140m top exhaust might help GPU cooling. If unplugging does not help, try increasing front intake fan speed and/or removing the PSU cover and lust laying one of the top 140mm fans in bottom on the vent as an intake to see what it does.
> 
> You have 2x 140mm intakes with filters and 3x 140mm exhausts with no filter plust the 120mm stacked fans on radiator. More exhaust than intake. The maximum flow of the case is the smaller of the two, so the exhaust can only be flowing as much as the intakes can supply.
> Does that make any sense to you?
> 
> All of these are just possible ways to help. Without knowing what the GPU radiator intake air temp is means we don't know if that air temp is higher than it should be or not.


I'll try to hook up a thermistor bundled with the x99 deluxe, we'll see how temps go then.

Top exhaust might be a bit excessive though, I will look into that. Thanks.


----------



## Loladinas

It was almost a shame to cut up such a nice case, but oh well...


----------



## GHADthc

Ha
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> It was almost a shame to cut up such a nice case, but oh well...


Ha hah! Nice work, just like mine, except I still havent bothered to get the TY143`s yet..and I think the heatsink on your gpu is a tad smaller than my morpheus? Looking good otherwise!


----------



## Loladinas

Yeah, Morpheus at 254*98*44mm is slightly larger (and probably of much higher build quality







) than my no-name heatsink at 193*113*66mm. The finstack itself is almost exactly the size of two 92mm fans, the rest of the width comes from heatpipes protruding towards the motherboard. It's the direct contact heatpipe type, and the way it is only two out of four heatpipes make contact with the tiny die of my 750 Ti. Regardless of all that it cools pretty well. I'm at the point where pushing it any further would make either the PCIE slot or the power delivery on the card give out, and the highest temp I could get out of it was like 52C, running Furmark. Regular usage stays under 45C. That's with case temp of 20-22C. For 20€ I can't complain. Replaced the stock fans though, those were noisy.

I still kind of want to replace my NH-D14 with some large single tower. Dual tower/dual fan just doesn't seem worth it to me at this point noise-wise. Also on this particular motherboard it's a bit close to the PCIE slot. Did the math and Le Grand Macho has roughly the same sized surface area (slightly more, actually), and wider spaced fins. I guess it should work better with slow fans.

I swear, at this point it's like some kind of a mental illness. Chasing a cool and quiet dragon down a yellow brick road or something









Got to find some rubber trim for the grill I cut out. Hit a couple of auto shops and even they didn't have any that seemed like it would be flexible enough.


----------



## marn3us

Guys I need your help and your experience for a very quick tip









I own a Bitfenix Prodigy mITX case and I'm looking to buy an nvidia graphics card but I am unsure whether it would be better from a thermal perspective to get a blower-cooler (reference) or an axial custom cooler (like MSI, ASUS etc.)... Could you please help me?

PS: cooling in my case is managed by a front intake Silverstone AP-182, Dark Rock Pro 3 for my 6600k and rear 120mm stock Bitfenix fan at low rpm

Thanks in advance!


----------



## GHADthc

I`ll start by saying you need a stronger exhaust fan, as well as removing all pci slot covers and possibly chopping extra holes in the path of the exhaust air, because it seems you have way to much intake and nowhere near enough exhaust pressure.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> Guys I need your help and your experience for a very quick tip
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own a Bitfenix Prodigy mITX case and I'm looking to buy an nvidia graphics card but I am unsure whether it would be better from a thermal perspective to get a blower-cooler (reference) or an axial custom cooler (like MSI, ASUS etc.)... Could you please help me?
> 
> PS: cooling in my case is managed by a front intake Silverstone AP-182, Dark Rock Pro 3 for my 6600k and rear 120mm stock Bitfenix fan at low rpm
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Prodigy is a nice case with good airflow. Not sure exactly what fan combination would be best, but definitely front intake and rear exhaust. Top depends on needs, but probably exhaust to draw heat out. The challenge I see is supplying CPU with cool air while removing GPU hot air, but by monitoring airflow temp going to cooler it should not be a problem to sort out.

With the side vent lining up with the GPU I would the reference design and get one that matches the vent.


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Prodigy is a nice case with good airflow. Not sure exactly what fan combination would be best, but definitely front intake and rear exhaust. Top depends on needs, but probably exhaust to draw heat out. The challenge I see is supplying CPU with cool air while removing GPU hot air, but by monitoring airflow temp going to cooler it should not be a problem to sort out.
> 
> With the side vent lining up with the GPU I would the reference design and get one that matches the vent.


Hmm I think I don't fully understand your answer









Are you suggesting a reference card (i'm gettin a used 780) over a custom axial cooler?

To supply more cool air to cpu the only thing I can do is increase front AP182 rpm since no other fans fit there


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> Hmm I think I don't fully understand your answer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting a reference card (i'm gettin a used 780) over a custom axial cooler?
> 
> To supply more cool air to cpu the only thing I can do is increase front AP182 rpm since no other fans fit there










Lots of coffee and still can't think!
Should read:
With the side vent lining up with the GPU I would not get the reference design and get one that matches the vent.

Actually there are other fans that will fit, just not 180mm ones. But AP182 will probably be just fine. It might help to have a shroud from side panel and GPU fan shroud so only air from side panel vent can go into GPU fans.


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of coffee and still can't think!
> Should read:
> With the side vent lining up with the GPU I would not get the reference design and get one that matches the vent.
> 
> Actually there are other fans that will fit, just not 180mm ones. But AP182 will probably be just fine. It might help to have a shroud from side panel and GPU fan shroud so only air from side panel vent can go into GPU fans.


Don't worry, thanks a lot!









Do you recommend swapping out the stock rear 120mm fan for a bigger 140mm when i get the custom gtx 780?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> Don't worry, thanks a lot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you recommend swapping out the stock rear 120mm fan for a bigger 140mm when i get the custom gtx 780?


Really depends on what your temps are and / or if the fan you have is too loud. More often than not with airlfow there is little black and white, just a area huge in shades of gray area we operate in.


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Really depends on what your temps are and / or if the fan you have is too loud. More often than not with airlfow there is little black and white, just a area huge in shades of gray area we operate in.


I've just opened up my case and realised a 140mm would not help exhausting hot gpu air due to its position, so I believe I'll keep my 120mm.

Still, I am wondering where the heated air exhausted by the gpu is going to end since the case is so small and mostly sealed...

I was thinking of a top-rear exhaust fan but the DRP3 is too tall and it wouldn't fit


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> I've just opened up my case and realised a 140mm would not help exhausting hot gpu air due to its position, so I believe I'll keep my 120mm.
> 
> Still, I am wondering where the heated air exhausted by the gpu is going to end since the case is so small and mostly sealed...
> 
> I was thinking of a top-rear exhaust fan but the DRP3 is too tall and it wouldn't fit


Sorry, what case is this?


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, what case is this?


Still the Bitfenix Prodigy mITX I was talking about









Ps: I know it may sound crazy to put a DRP3 in an ITX case but hey, there's no kill like overkill


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> Still the Bitfenix Prodigy mITX I was talking about
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ps: I know it may sound crazy to put a DRP3 in an ITX case but hey, there's no kill like overkill


Sorry, between being absent minded and talking to so may people it's hard to remember who has what.








According to specs " Cooling Rear: 120mm x 1 (included) or 140mm x 1(optional) ", or am I missing something?
To me it's not overkill, it's overquiet.







.
I almost always run large coolers, not so much for extra cooler but quieter cooling. Big coolers radiate more heat with less airflow speed because the have more fin area, and lower air speed means lower fan speed means less noise.








I usually run more intake fans than needed for same basic reason; more intake area give same amount of airflow at lower fan speed and simliar noise level

The increase in sound lever of
fan . dB total . Db each fan adds
1 . . 0.0 . . .. . 0.0
2 . . 3.0103 . . 3.01
3 . . 4.77121 . 1,76
4 . . 6.0206 . . 1.25
5 . . 6.9897 . . 0.97
6 . . 7.78151 . 0.80

2x TY-147A @ 665rpm deliver 79.4cfm @ 13.8dBA . . . @ 858rpm deliver 99.4cfm @ 15.5dBA
3x TY-147A @ 458rpm deliver 81,9cfm @ 12.9dBA . . @ 655rpm deliver 119.1cfm @ 15.57dBA

3x TY-147A @ 763rpm deliver 132.9cfm @16.37dBA . . @ 858rpm deliver 149.1cfm @ 17.27dBA
4x TY-147A @ 564rpm deliver 134cfm @ 16.69dBA . . . @ 665rpm deliver 158.8cfm @ 17.79dBA


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, between being absent minded and talking to so may people it's hard to remember who has what.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to specs " Cooling Rear: 120mm x 1 (included) or 140mm x 1(optional) ", or am I missing something?
> To me it's not overkill, it's overquiet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> I almost always run large coolers, not so much for extra cooler but quieter cooling. Big coolers radiate more heat with less airflow speed because the have more fin area, and lower air speed means lower fan speed means less noise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I usually run more intake fans than needed for same basic reason; more intake area give same amount of airflow at lower fan speed and simliar noise level
> 
> The increase in sound lever of
> fan . dB total . Db each fan adds
> 1 . . 0.0 . . .. . 0.0
> 2 . . 3.0103 . . 3.01
> 3 . . 4.77121 . 1,76
> 4 . . 6.0206 . . 1.25
> 5 . . 6.9897 . . 0.97
> 6 . . 7.78151 . 0.80
> 
> 2x TY-147A @ 665rpm deliver 79.4cfm @ 13.8dBA . . . @ 858rpm deliver 99.4cfm @ 15.5dBA
> 3x TY-147A @ 458rpm deliver 81,9cfm @ 12.9dBA . . @ 655rpm deliver 119.1cfm @ 15.57dBA
> 
> 3x TY-147A @ 763rpm deliver 132.9cfm @16.37dBA . . @ 858rpm deliver 149.1cfm @ 17.27dBA
> 4x TY-147A @ 564rpm deliver 134cfm @ 16.69dBA . . . @ 665rpm deliver 158.8cfm @ 17.79dBA


That's really interesting!

Anyways, I have just measured and I can't fit any fans in the roof of the Prodigy, so my airflow would be like this:
- Front intake SST AP-182
- DRP3 for cpu
- ASUS GTX 780 dual 92mm fan
- Rear fan exhaust (120mm)

Since my only exhaust option is the rear fan, should I get a 140mm instead of the 120mm to run it at same noise levels but drawing out more air from the case?


----------



## TK421

@doyll

Unsure if this is normal or not. D15 is very close to hitting thermal limits even at low overvolt.

4.2 @1.2v
cache 40 @1.18v (iirc +255 offset)



Also, consider removing the top grill on the Enthoo Luxe lol. Dropped my GPU temps 7-10c while playing Divison (radiator is exhausting up).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> @doyll
> 
> Unsure if this is normal or not. D15 is very close to hitting thermal limits even at low overvolt.
> 
> 4.2 @1.2v
> cache 40 @1.18v (iirc +255 offset)
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, consider removing the top grill on the Enthoo Luxe lol. Dropped my GPU temps 7-10c while playing Divison (radiator is exhausting up).
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Sorry, I talk to so many and I'm absent minded anyway. I don't remember what your system is.








Fan color is a giveaway.
They do not have the best ability to overcome resistance because they are not really designed for it.
What radiator is it?
Removing small hole grill will help a lot. Even the bigger hole grill is very restrictive. I figured it out once and can't remember exactly, but seems that round hole size / pattern blocked something like 50% the area. Best grill pattern is octagon / honeycomb which blocks about 35%

I will try and post an image of grill size, pattern and open area


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, I talk to so many and I'm absent minded anyway. I don't remember what your system is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fan color is a giveaway.
> They do not have the best ability to overcome resistance because they are not really designed for it.
> What radiator is it?
> Removing small hole grill will help a lot. Even the bigger hole grill is very restrictive. I figured it out once and can't remember exactly, but seems that round hole size / pattern blocked something like 50% the area. Best grill pattern is octagon / honeycomb which blocks about 35%
> 
> I will try and post an image of grill size, pattern and open area


5820K @4.2ghz, 1.19v | Cache @40 1.175v -> NH-D15 with Kryonaut paste and stock fans push/pull

Radiator 120mm asetek CLC AIO, fan Gentle Typhoon 1850 (AP53 OEM/AP15 retail) push pull


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> 5820K @4.2ghz, 1.19v | Cache @40 1.175v -> NH-D15 with Kryonaut paste and stock fans push/pull
> 
> Radiator 120mm asetek CLC AIO, fan Gentle Typhoon 1850 (AP53 OEM/AP15 retail) push pull


Thanks!
Any idea what the actual air temp going into D15 is? Knowing this temp makes it much easier. If it s 5c or less above room, it is good, but it might be much higher, and every degree higher the cooler intake air temp is translates into a degree higher the CPU temp will be .. while not exactly a 1:1 ratio, it is usually very close.

Not sure what the rest of your case fan / airflow layout is, but my guess is the front Noc fan is at the least a waste, and possible steeling cool intake air that would otherwise got to CPU or radiator. The rear top noc is probably also of marginal value. Three top fans all competing at pushing air out the top vent grill is maxing out vent's airflow ability. I would not be surprise if unplugging the Nocs gave similarly lower GPU temps.









That is radiator is GPU cooler, meaning only heat off of GPU is VRMs, meaning case airflow and D15 intake are likely not too warm. What temps are other GPU components running?

the D15 A15 fan is 1500rpm / 140.2m/h (82.52cfm), so stock PH-F140SP is likely not flowing as much air as cooler is.

Did you change the PH-F200SP front intake to 2x 140mm fans?


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Thanks!
> Any idea what the actual air temp going into D15 is? Knowing this temp makes it much easier. If it s 5c or less above room, it is good, but it might be much higher, and every degree higher the cooler intake air temp is translates into a degree higher the CPU temp will be .. while not exactly a 1:1 ratio, it is usually very close.
> 
> Not sure what the rest of your case fan / airflow layout is, but my guess is the front Noc fan is at the least a waste, and possible steeling cool intake air that would otherwise got to CPU or radiator. The rear top noc is probably also of marginal value. Three top fans all competing at pushing air out the top vent grill is maxing out vent's airflow ability. I would not be surprise if unplugging the Nocs gave similarly lower GPU temps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is radiator is GPU cooler, meaning only heat off of GPU is VRMs, meaning case airflow and D15 intake are likely not too warm. What temps are other GPU components running?
> 
> the D15 A15 fan is 1500rpm / 140.2m/h (82.52cfm), so stock PH-F140SP is likely not flowing as much air as cooler is.
> 
> Did you change the PH-F200SP front intake to 2x 140mm fans?


I'll get a thermistor up and running on thursday. There's a couple included with the D15.

Yes, the front lower intake is 2x140mm.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> I'll get a thermistor up and running on thursday. There's a couple included with the D15.
> 
> Yes, the front lower intake is 2x140mm.


Like I indicated, case airflow temps should not be a problem but it would be nice to rule them out.








Thermistors included with NH-D15? Mine didn't come with any. That's interesting.

No idea where you live, but cheap indoor/outdoor digital thermometers, remote sensor aquarium / terrarium / fridge thermometers starting for about $1.75. Amazon.com has one for $2.49
http://www.amazon.com/Leegoal-Digital-Aquarium-Terrarium-Thermometer/dp/B0017N8W90/ref=sr_1_10?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1463402524&sr=1-10&keywords=aquarium+thermometer

I prefer indoor/outdoor because I can set it near case intake and monitor case intake as well as component intake at same time instead of using a separate thermometer for room, like one below for $5.90 I've seen them for even less.







But it's not a big deal either way.
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Outdoor-Indoor-Thermometer-Temperature/dp/B00MO6R0YW/ref=sr_1_19?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1463402721&sr=1-19&keywords=indoor+outdoor+digital+thermometer


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Like I indicated, case airflow temps should not be a problem but it would be nice to rule them out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thermistors included with NH-D15? Mine didn't come with any. That's interesting.
> 
> No idea where you live, but cheap indoor/outdoor digital thermometers, remote sensor aquarium / terrarium / fridge thermometers starting for about $1.75. Amazon.com has one for $2.49
> http://www.amazon.com/Leegoal-Digital-Aquarium-Terrarium-Thermometer/dp/B0017N8W90/ref=sr_1_10?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1463402524&sr=1-10&keywords=aquarium+thermometer
> 
> I prefer indoor/outdoor because I can set it near case intake and monitor case intake as well as component intake at same time instead of using a separate thermometer for room, like one below for $5.90 I've seen them for even less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not a big deal either way.
> http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Outdoor-Indoor-Thermometer-Temperature/dp/B00MO6R0YW/ref=sr_1_19?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1463402721&sr=1-19&keywords=indoor+outdoor+digital+thermometer


It comes with a small thermistor and a secondary daughterboard to read the connection. (X99 Deluxe motherboard bundle)


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> It comes with a small thermistor and a secondary daughterboard to read the connection. (X99 Deluxe motherboard bundle)


LOL Now it makes sense. X99 Deluxe, not D15.


----------



## LostParticle

Hey....

Second time I am re-seating today :\

I don't understand what's happening! Is this normal?

SMALL FFTs
Room temperature = 25 C



System (open-air rig):
Intel i7-4790K
Asus Maximus Hero VII
Noctua NH-D15S + 2 x Noctua NF-A15 both running at their full speed (>1500RPM). These fans are mounted: one in the middle and one at the back of the cooler (as pull).
Thermal Grizzly Kryonout

Why am I getting >90 C?
Is this normal?
Should re-sit (again??)?


----------



## doyll

I suggest you start a thread. That way more people will see it and hopefully be of more help than I can.
My first guess was TIM seat. I don't know what 'normal' voltages, best stress test software or even exactly what normal temp should be for your specific chip. I always use x264 stress tesing. All I know is 90+c is about 20c too high for a CPU under this caliber of cooler.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I suggest you start a thread. That way more people will see it and hopefully be of more help than I can.
> My first guess was TIM seat. I don't know what 'normal' voltages, best stress test software or even exactly what normal temp should be for your specific chip. I always use x264 stress tesing. All I know is 90+c is about 20c too high for a CPU under this caliber of cooler.


Ah....








I see...









You are not familiar with the i7-4790K? Too bad...

Anyway. I run the x264 too and I get max 60C there but the whole point of running Prime95, latest version, Small FFTs is to test the capacity of this cooler. Because it is new to me.

Anyway. I already posted a link to my post here at the Noctua NH-D15 Official club and also I have posted all the necessary data, there. Who knows...perhaps >90C is normal for this stress test (with this cooler). My Corsair H110 does a (little) bit better, though!...

Thank you.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Ah....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are not familiar with the i7-4790K? Too bad...
> 
> Anyway. I run the x264 too and I get max 60C there but the whole point of running Prime95, latest version, Small FFTs is to test the capacity of this cooler. Because it is new to me.
> 
> Anyway. I already posted a link to my post here at the Noctua NH-D15 Official club and also I have posted all the necessary data, there. Who knows...perhaps >90C is normal for this stress test (with this cooler). My Corsair H110 does a (little) bit better, though!...
> 
> Thank you.


60c is what I would expect to see at 100% load.







H110 is a little bit better, but generally it also makes much more noise.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Hey....
> 
> -snip-


Fairly normal. I get ~70 over ambient when I run small FFTs as well, at 1.328v, and I run delidded.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Fairly normal. I get ~70 over ambient when I run small FFTs as well, at 1.328v, and I run delidded.


Thank you. man, I appreciate your input +REP, cause you're straight to the point!

@doyll, I just used the pea method with the Kryonout and not spread it, like the manual says, don't think this is an issue, right?...?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Thank you. man, I appreciate your input +REP, cause you're straight to the point!
> 
> @doyll, I just used the pea method with the Kryonout and not spread it, like the manual says, don't think this is an issue, right?...?


I have not used Kryonout so can only guess. I think it will be okay. Worst case is it won't spread / thin out as well as as we would like and temps will be higher.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I have not used Kryonout so can only guess. I think it will be okay. Worst case is it won't spread / thin out as well as as we would like and temps will be higher.


Yeah...

Well, tomorrow morning I am planning to re-install using the Noctua NT-H1 that came with the cooler. I'm curious...

Anyway.......I have to say this........... This new NH-D15S has not given me that "WOW-effect-feeling", unfortunately.....So far, in my system, its performance is just OK...

I might change opinion but so far I justify it in my consciousness as a required replacement due to that corrosion.

Anyway, thanks.


----------



## ehume

If your Noctua heatsink is disappointing, contact Noctua tech support. It's possible you have a bad heatpipe.

But first, use the included TIM to mount the heatsink. Then give it 20-24 hours for the TIM to migrate. It shouldn't make a difference, but it does. I date and time my mounts, and when I test heatsinks I date and time those. I keep track, and I've observed at least a 1-day drop in temps for all TIM's.

I use a 4790k myself, for testing. It all depends on how early your chip was, and how you did in the silicon lottery. I had an early and I have a late 4790k. They differ significantly in overclockability. One problem with chips that are not soldered (both the original Haswell and the Devil's Canyon are unsoldered) is that their ability to offload heat is restrained by Intel's TIM and the gap between the CPU and the IHS. That gap governs the amount of TIM used. Loladinas obviates this by running without a cover.

In a regular chip, the heat flow until you reach the capacity of the intra-CPU TIM to move heat. At that point your IHS becomes a thermos bottle and you coretemps skyrocket. It's m pore of a problem with Haswell, but you can get it with Devil's Canyon as well.

If you don't do so well with the silicon lottery, then even running lidless can be a problem. YMMV.


----------



## doyll

Have you tried your NH-U14S on this 4790?


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> If your Noctua heatsink is disappointing, contact Noctua tech support. It's possible you have a bad heatpipe.
> 
> But first, use the included TIM to mount the heatsink. Then give it 20-24 hours for the TIM to migrate. It shouldn't make a difference, but it does. I date and time my mounts, and when I test heatsinks I date and time those. I keep track, and I've observed at least a 1-day drop in temps for all TIM's.
> 
> I use a 4790k myself, for testing. It all depends on how early your chip was, and how you did in the silicon lottery. I had an early and I have a late 4790k. They differ significantly in overclockability. One problem with chips that are not soldered (both the original Haswell and the Devil's Canyon are unsoldered) is that their ability to offload heat is restrained by Intel's TIM and the gap between the CPU and the IHS. That gap governs the amount of TIM used. Loladinas obviates this by running without a cover.
> 
> In a regular chip, the heat flow until you reach the capacity of the intra-CPU TIM to move heat. At that point your IHS becomes a thermos bottle and you coretemps skyrocket. It's m pore of a problem with Haswell, but you can get it with Devil's Canyon as well.
> 
> If you don't do so well with the silicon lottery, then even running lidless can be a problem. YMMV.


Hi ehume, I always appreciate your opinion and follow your advice, as well as doyll's, of course.

In this case, though, I do not think that my new NH-D15S has any kind of flaw and thus I will not contact Noctua. I strongly believe that it is performing as it should. And this is what I am trying to discover / establish by asking some people with the same processor and cooler as mine to run one or two tests and post their results, preferably with a screenshot. *A better phrased question*, I want to believe, has been posted in the much more relevant Devil's Canyon thread today.

I sincerely hope that someone will run a test or two, and post or just type their results. It is as SIMPLE as that! [Your] Ambient temp, Max VCore, Max Core temp is all I need!
_(One person already replied, already thanked and rep-ed)_

I aware of the i7-4790K IHS problem, thank you. My chip is not hotter than other non-delidded i7-4790Ks

Thank you.

doyll, I suppose you are referring to me, so I reply: unfortunately, I have not run Prime 95 with my previous NH-U14S. I have run the x264 Stability Test v2.06, though. Ambient is pretty constant this period here, it is 24 - 25 C. The max core temp I was getting with the U14S was 60C, always two fan setup. Well, the same I get with the new NH-D15S, with three (3) NF-A15 (one of which is the retail-1200 version and the other two are the "1500-version").

Guys...lots of words have been typed for this matter. ALL I need is a person with an i7-4790K and a D15 or D15S to run Prime95, Small FFTs or an other type of stress test, and post his settings, his ambient and core max temps, and his voltages. As simple as that.


----------



## sydefekt

Hello, so have you tried using the stock Noctua TIM? And did you use Kryonaut before with your U14S? Personally, I did not get good results with Kryonaut. Gelid worked better for me.

Another thought is fan turbulence. I am not familiar enough with the 3 fan setup, but I suggest you test with just the 2 1500 fans installed, and see if there is a difference.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sydefekt*
> 
> Hello, so have you tried using the stock Noctua TIM? And did you use Kryonaut before with your U14S? Personally, I did not get good results with Kryonaut. Gelid worked better for me.
> 
> Another thought is fan turbulence. I am not familiar enough with the 3 fan setup, but I suggest you test with just the 2 1500 fans installed, and see if there is a difference.


Hello, thank you for your reply. I will REP you because you stayed on topic! _(The amount of irrelevant, off topic, "opinions - advices" I've read since yesterday, when I first asked about this, is unbelievable...)_

I will try with the Noctua TIM after one hour or so. I will re-mount my NH-D15S again. The kryonout syringe was purchased a couple of days ago and it was kept sealed until the new cooler arrived. I have not used it with my U14S. With it I was using Noctua.

You are the first person who doubts the Kryonout and I thank you for this. Because you confirm a suspicion of mine... I mean, yeah, I might have NOT seated it properly or I might have not applied the appropriate amount of Kryonout - and I always use the pea method - but....how is it possible that I am getting 60C with the U14S (2 fan setup) and again 60C with the D15S 3 fan setup (mounted twice)?! All this with the x264 v2.0, all fans always running at their full speed during all stress testing. (ambient = 25 C).

Here's my next steps:
1. Right now, with the Kryonout, I will run and save screenshots from three (3) tests:
-- Prime95, latest, Small FFTs, max Vcore in the BIOS: 1.250V (resulting in ~ 1.3V under load) [ I already have the results from this ].
-- x264 V2.0 override VCore = 1.4V, in the BIOS, resulting in ~ 1.424V under load
-- AIDA64 with 1.4V in the BIOS. With AIDA64 I am not so familiar so I will test this further.

2. I will re-install using the Noctua TIM and run the same tests again.

The important thing is that I will run the same stress tests with both TIMS.

Then I will compare and post my results and hopefully some other person with a non-delidded i7-4790K and my air cooler will post his results with similar settings and tests, as well, or at least one of them!

That is the best I can do and I can think of.

Thank you.

PS: Oh! And since you mentioned the fans, I need to say that on the D15S placing a front fan makes a significant difference! For the moment I have an NF-A15_1200RPM_version there. But I also own a NF-P12 120mm Noctua, and I am thinking of testing with it as well, as the front fan.


----------



## GHADthc

I dont rate Kryonaut very much either, its extremely messy and hard to spread (In my experience, though I may have got a bad batch) and it doesnt compare to Gelid GC Extreme from what I`ve seen...I`d definitely follow what others have said and try the stock Noctua TIM, which I assume you are already in the process of.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> I dont rate Kryonaut very much either, its extremely messy and hard to spread (In my experience, though I may have got a bad batch) and it doesnt compare to Gelid GC Extreme from what I`ve seen...I`d definitely follow what others have said and try the stock Noctua TIM, which I assume you are already in the process of.


Hmm, wow, really?!
Second person who does not vote the Kryonout...

Well, surely, I will use the Noctua now, yes, I have the tube which came with the cooler. I also own a tube of Prolimatech PK-3 but it was opened one year ago, maybe... I do not recall...

Anyway, guys, I will start with the testing and the re-mounting now.

Perhaps the "mistake" with the Kryonout is that we do not spread it with that thingie they provide. I have never spread any TIM, though. I always apply a tiny blob in the middle of the CPU.

Anyway, we will see...

Thank you.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Hmm, wow, really?!
> Second person who does not vote the Kryonout...
> 
> Well, surely, I will use the Noctua now, yes, I have the tube which came with the cooler. I also own a tube of Prolimatech PK-3 but it was opened one year ago, maybe... I do not recall...
> 
> Anyway, guys, I will start with the testing and the re-mounting now.
> 
> Perhaps the "mistake" with the Kryonout is that we do not spread it with that thingie they provide. I have never spread any TIM, though. I always apply a tiny blob in the middle of the CPU.
> 
> Anyway, we will see...
> 
> Thank you.


Yeah do not use that spreader thing, its terrible, and will make a horrible mess...just try the usual pea method, it should more than suffice for a 4790k.


----------



## Loladinas

@ehume
I don't run lidless, I worded it a bit wrong. I have removed the heatspreader, got rid of the black sealant to reduce the gap and replaced TIM with Liquid Pro. The whole usual bit.

I haven't compared Kryonaut to NH-T1 (that tube I got with the cooler has been long gone), but compared to MX4 it did drop roughly 2 degrees, if I'm remembering it correctly. Then again, I did a remount of Kryonaut after tinting the cooler and heatspreader vs. simple dot in the middle and it dropped 4 degrees. As long as you don't get bottom of the barrel TIM the way you mount it seems to be at least as important as what TIM you use.


----------



## doyll

TIM spreadability and the resulting seat / print is way more important than what TIM we use.

Of the top TIM available only the liquid metal ones are a couple degrees better. The next 27 have 1.2c difference, add another 6to to get 1c more difference.
13th post in this thread.


----------



## LostParticle

I have finished with the remounting and the application of the NT-H1 TIM and have run my tests. I was ready like two hours ago already, but *a known bug* prevented me from posting my screenshots.

The results are the same.

I am done with reseating this cooler. It seems that this is all it can give.

I hope my tests will be useful to others.

Thank you.

The screenshots


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



In all the following tests:
 Ambient (room) temperature = 25 Celsius
 *Open air rig*, 3 x NF-A15, front (1200RPM), middle + rear (1500RPM), Q-Fan Control disabled in the BIOS = all fans at full speed
 Pea method used
 Extra care has been taken in thoroughly cleaning the TIM, using coffee filters and isopropyl alcohol, and in seating and evenly screwing the two screws of the cooler.
 My mounting method is not perfect but it has been the same with both TIMs
 The total duration of each test can be seen, as well, at the bottom right corner of HWiNFO64.

*Thermal Grizzly Kryonout*
AIDA64


Prime95, Small FFTs


x264 Stability Test v2.06


*Noctua NT-H1*
AIDA64


Prime95, Small FFTs


x264 Stability Test v2.06


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *sydefekt*
> 
> Hello, so have you tried using the stock Noctua TIM? And did you use Kryonaut before with your U14S? Personally, I did not get good results with Kryonaut. Gelid worked better for me.
> 
> Another thought is fan turbulence. I am not familiar enough with the 3 fan setup, but I suggest you test with just the 2 1500 fans installed, and see if there is a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Hello, thank you for your reply. I will REP you because you stayed on topic! (The amount of irrelevant, off topic, "opinions - advices" I've read since yesterday, when I first asked about this, is unbelievable...)
> 
> I will try with the Noctua TIM after one hour or so. I will re-mount my NH-D15S again. The kryonout syringe was purchased a couple of days ago and it was kept sealed until the new cooler arrived. I have not used it with my U14S. With it I was using Noctua.
> 
> You are the first person who doubts the Kryonout and I thank you for this. Because you confirm a suspicion of mine... I mean, yeah, I might have NOT seated it properly or I might have not applied the appropriate amount of Kryonout - and I always use the pea method - but....how is it possible that I am getting 60C with the U14S (2 fan setup) and again 60C with the D15S 3 fan setup (mounted twice)?! All this with the x264 v2.0, all fans always running at their full speed during all stress testing. (ambient = 25 C).
> 
> Here's my next steps:
> 1. Right now, with the Kryonout, I will run and save screenshots from three (3) tests:
> -- Prime95, latest, Small FFTs, max Vcore in the BIOS: 1.250V (resulting in ~ 1.3V under load) [ I already have the results from this ].
> -- x264 V2.0 override VCore = 1.4V, in the BIOS, resulting in ~ 1.424V under load
> -- AIDA64 with 1.4V in the BIOS. With AIDA64 I am not so familiar so I will test this further.
> 
> 2. I will re-install using the Noctua TIM and run the same tests again.
> 
> The important thing is that I will run the same stress tests with both TIMS.
> 
> Then I will compare and post my results and hopefully some other person with a non-delidded i7-4790K and my air cooler will post his results with similar settings and tests, as well, or at least one of them!
> 
> That is the best I can do and I can think of.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> PS: Oh! And since you mentioned the fans, I need to say that on the D15S placing a front fan makes a significant difference! For the moment I have an NF-A15_1200RPM_version there. But I also own a NF-P12 120mm Noctua, and I am thinking of testing with it as well, as the front fan.
Click to expand...

By "included TIM"I meant the Noctua.

I have done reviews on Noctua heatsinks on Overclockers with my 4790k. "Noctua NH-D15S Heatsink Review" is the relevant one. But I keep my Vcore down. The max is reported by the motherboard at 1.248v (set to 1.23v). Lower volts give cooler CPU's.

"I will try with the Noctua TIM after one hour or so." As I suggested, you gain in cooling if you wait a day.

You have a good fan placement, using the 1200 rpm fan in front, the 1500 rpm fan in the middle. This way your middle fan will not block the airflow from your front fan.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> @ehume
> I don't run lidless, I worded it a bit wrong. I have removed the heatspreader, got rid of the black sealant to reduce the gap and replaced TIM with Liquid Pro. The whole usual bit.
> 
> I haven't compared Kryonaut to NH-T1 (that tube I got with the cooler has been long gone), but compared to MX4 it did drop roughly 2 degrees, if I'm remembering it correctly. Then again, I did a remount of Kryonaut after tinting the cooler and heatspreader vs. simple dot in the middle and it dropped 4 degrees. As long as you don't get bottom of the barrel TIM the way you mount it seems to be at least as important as what TIM you use.


Good to know.

The last reviews I saw on the MX4 weren't so good. I have found the Gelid GC Extreme cooling the best, but the Noctua has what I consider to be the optimal viscosity -- and it's a little less than a degree behind the Gelid.


----------



## LostParticle

I have an update. I have removed the rear fan and mounted it as front. So, now I run it with 2 NF-A15 both of which can run at max = 1500 RPM. Absolutely no difference in my Core Max, in all the three different stress tests I have posted the results of. Now @doyll might become angry







so screenshots available upon request, but I will post my AIDA64 run, because this time I have also stressed my GPU.









Thank you.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Ambient temp = 26 C


----------



## doyll

When coolers have good fans adding second and third fans makes little to no difference


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> When coolers have good fans adding second and third fans makes little to no difference


I agree







(even though the front fan on this specific cooler does make a difference).

The only thing I've regretted is the tall RAM I have... And the problem is that it is almost impossible to remove the heat-fins of this kit!! I'll know better next time...


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> When coolers have good fans adding second and third fans makes little to no difference


Well aren`t I silly, I just bit the bullet and ordered 3 TY-143`s for my Phanteks heat sink...I suppose I can give them a low rpm fan curve through PWM and still get better performance than the stock fans?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Well aren`t I silly, I just bit the bullet and ordered 3 TY-143`s for my Phanteks heat sink...I suppose I can give them a low rpm fan curve through PWM and still get better performance than the stock fans?


They are very good fans. You won't regret having an extra one.









2x on cooler and 1x intake or maybe exhaust ??

While a few testers show coolers like HE01 and Silver Arrow SB-E & IB-E Extreme (with extreme airflow fans) show them 5-8c better than similar coolers with 'normal' fans, most tests show them less than 3c better. The reason is case airflow. Unless the airflow of case they are used in is adjusted to flow as much additional air as the fans do, when the fans spin up above the 'normal' 1300rpm the cooler intake has to get it's added flow from somewhere, so it has to re-use it's exhaust air, meaning cooler intake air temp goes up, and every degree hotter cooler intake air is translates into a degree hotter the CPU will be.

Say it over and over and over; monitor airflow air temps, especially component intake air temps. Optimizing case airflow is not about how many fans you stuff into a case, but how their resulting airflow supplies cool air to components by flowing their heated exhaust away and out of case without it contaminating and raising the temperature of component intakes.


----------



## MicroCat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Say it over and over and over; monitor airflow air temps, especially component intake air temps. Optimizing case airflow is not about how many fans you stuff into a case, but how their resulting airflow supplies cool air to components by flowing their heated exhaust away and out of case without it contaminating and raising the temperature of component intakes.


And that's why for my case intake fans, I ensure an exclusive supply of boutique fresh air imported from the English country side, chilled to perfection in the belly of a transatlantic 767. Sure, the system sometimes smells a little like leftover bangers and mash, stale ale and Python farts, but it's worth it.

Your premium intake fans deserve better than left over room temperature air. Visit fresh-air-delivered-air.com now and fan the difference!


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

[quote name="ehume" url="/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/430#post_25182671...The last reviews I saw on the MX4 weren't so good...
[/quote]

Where are you getting your reviews? I just checked on Newegg and the last six months of reviews were all good.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> [quote name="ehume" url="/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/430#post_25182671...The last reviews I saw on the MX4 weren't so good...


Indeed, I haven't heard any rumbling about MX4 quality either. While it is good, I think some of the other top TIMs are a little lower priced.

Where are you getting your reviews? I just checked on Newegg and the last six months of reviews were all good.[/quote]
While I too use user reviews, we both know they are generally based on very limited comparisons. Users reviews are typically not doing a real A/B test comparison between things, but only what they were running before against what they are now getting. .. often not even monitoring room temperature during each test.

Even some reviewers an testers like stulid, (OcUK staff member) are sadly lacking credibility. He did an extensive TIM test and didn't even monitored the temperature of room he was testing in.









When posts like these about baseline temp were posted

"Do get a thermometer so you can monitor ambient temp... without it you have no reference point to base results on. Your room can change 2-3c very easily. Idle temps of 31.25-34.25c a 3c variance.

Still a great bit of work!"

"my opinion is that without ambient temps it is very difficult to draw any kind of conlusion, and also goes some way to explaining why your ranking of results doesn't really match up with any other large roundup that does include ambient

most other results also do multiple mounts on each paste as well to rule out differences in application

having said that - most pastes being within 2-3 degrees of each other is pretty normal as CPU temp sensors are not all that accurate anyway"

"I appreciate how much work has gone into this, but I have to repeat the above opinions and also question why they've been completely ignored thus far."
His replies were

" The results were all gathered later at evening/night and on cool days, I avoided the four day heatwave we have had this summer."

"If it helps I got a thermometer later on when I did the h100i, all it showed is that my house is very stable tempertaure wise with little variation, it is an energy efficent new build type consturction."
When asked about cure time his reply was

"I have had these pastes for a month, so they each had enough time to cure, some (such as the Gelid GC says it doesn't even need curing)"
It's been pinned at top of OcUK forum cooling & overclocker forum sense 02/02/2012.








Does that give us any idea how competent OcUK is? I make no judgement, but if I even look at one of their reviews I do it with a large dose of salt.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> They are very good fans. You won't regret having an extra one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2x on cooler and 1x intake or maybe exhaust ??
> 
> While a few testers show coolers like HE01 and Silver Arrow SB-E & IB-E Extreme (with extreme airflow fans) show them 5-8c better than similar coolers with 'normal' fans, most tests show them less than 3c better. The reason is case airflow. Unless the airflow of case they are used in is adjusted to flow as much additional air as the fans do, when the fans spin up above the 'normal' 1300rpm the cooler intake has to get it's added flow from somewhere, so it has to re-use it's exhaust air, meaning cooler intake air temp goes up, and every degree hotter cooler intake air is translates into a degree hotter the CPU will be.
> 
> Say it over and over and over; monitor airflow air temps, especially component intake air temps. Optimizing case airflow is not about how many fans you stuff into a case, but how their resulting airflow supplies cool air to components by flowing their heated exhaust away and out of case without it contaminating and raising the temperature of component intakes.


Well the Phanteks and TY-143's are being fed fresh intake air from a filtered AP181 (But there is about 100mm of distance between the AP181 and the first TY-143, and nothing obstructing it, so the intake I think I have covered)...I'm just wondering how to go about the exhaust, the rear of the TJ08-E only takes square framed 120mm fans, and there mite not even be enough room to fit a fan there when the third TY-143 is installed on the rear of the heat sink (there is very little space here)...I think I mite make a funnel to direct all the warm air coming from the CPU out the rear of the case, I wonder would that mitigate the majority of warmed air being recycled throughout the case?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Well the Phanteks and TY-143's are being fed fresh intake air from a filtered AP181 (But there is about 100mm of distance between the AP181 and the first TY-143, and nothing obstructing it, so the intake I think I have covered)...I'm just wondering how to go about the exhaust, the rear of the TJ08-E only takes square framed 120mm fans, and there mite not even be enough room to fit a fan there when the third TY-143 is installed on the rear of the heat sink (there is very little space here)...I think I mite make a funnel to direct all the warm air coming from the CPU out the rear of the case, I wonder would that mitigate the majority of warmed air being recycled throughout the case?


AP181s should be fine.
You may be able to use no back exhaust fans. I would remove PCIe slot covers and monitor cooler intake air temp to see what it is.
Probably check GPU intake too just to know what it is.


----------



## LostParticle

*First "real-world" use* of my NH-D15S


----------



## LostParticle

Hey @doyll, there's something I would like to ask you.

A couple of days now I've created two O/C profiles, x47 and x 48, on my Hero VII. A temporary installation, open-air rig, you might have seen photos and screenshots. After approx. two weeks (hopefully) I will receive two Noctua NF A14 industrialPPC-3000 PWM, a gift from Noctua, and I will mount my chassis with my Corsair H110 again. Summer coming in, not the best period to run an air cooler.

Anyway, in these two days, during stress testing, I was placing my hand at the back of my rig and I was feeling warm air coming from this area:



Honestly, the air blowing from the rest was cool! But from that specific area it was warm.

So, I'd like to ask you about the appropriate / best height of the fan(s) of the NH-D15S. What is the best position (height) for the fans? I use two NF-A15_1500 RPM. One in the front and the other in the middle.
The one in the front cannot be set lower due to my tall RAM







I will never make the mistake of getting tall RAM again! But supposedly I could place both of them at any desirable height, what would the best be?
As shown in the picture? (Now I have the middle fan placed a bit higher)

Thank you!


----------



## LostParticle

Just out of curiosity, I have installed *my old kit of RAM* and placed the two fans as lower as possible. I've run two tests, Prime95 v. 28.9, Small FFTs, 5 minutes, at stock (x44, Multicore Enhancement Enabled) and the x264, Override VCore = 1.4V in the BIOS, Override Cache = 1.25V, in the BIOS. The max voltage values of both of these tests can be seen in my previous screenshots.

With this (very) low profile DRAM kit the fans can be placed as low as possible and this is what I did. The only significant temperature drop has been observed on my VRM. From 59C to 54C on Prime and from 61C to 55C on the x264. My Core Max dropped as well in both tests by 1 - 3 degrees. Room temp = 25C

Does it worth it (to place the fans as lower as possible)?

In my opinion, it does as long as one has low profile RAM and is able to do it.

_Screenshots available upon request._


----------



## doyll

This /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ is why I use the shortest RAM I can get. While it may not be a tie breaker, it does make a difference.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> With this (very) low profile DRAM kit


Excuse me sir, these do not look like Crucial Ballistix.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> This /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ is why I use the shortest RAM I can get. While it may not be a tie breaker, it does make a difference.


Yes, and next time I'll make sure to get low profile RAM.

Still with this cooler (Noctua NH-D15S) good job can be achieved if the middle fan will be placed as lower as possible, independently from how low a front fan can be placed! Actually, the picture from my post #444 shows exactly how the middle fan has to be placed. In my previous tests It was my fault because I had placed it a bit higher: the top corners of the fan were in place with the top corners of the fins. As the picture shows though, it is the bottom corners of the middle fan that have to be in alignment with the bottom corners of the fins.

This time I have placed the middle fan properly - as the picture shows - and even lower! I've placed it as low as possible, until the screws of the cooler allowed!

My VRM temp dropped!

Before, with the middle fan placed higher : *VRM temp = 57C*
Now, with the middle fan placed as low as possible:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Room Temp = 25C




My Core Max remained almost identical. (74 - 75C)


----------



## miklkit

Ayup! Which is why I only recommend coolers with adjustable fans. I have seen larger drops in the 10-12C range in AMD systems. I use tall ram too.


----------



## .theMetal

I'm trying to cool down my system a bit, I know small cases with warm components don't really mix, I knew that when I got the Node. I really like the case, it's looks good and everything, but my card seems to throttle (it hits 80-81c on the stock fan curve for quiet). I've tinkered with fan speed and things like that, but it just gets a little loud, I think the case has negative pressure. I'm also just looking for a change, I've been running this case for a long time now.

So I'm torn between these two case, my sig show's what would go in:

Fractal Design Nano S

Silverstone KL06B-W

Both windowed version.

I have a matching 140mm fan for the front of the fractal out of the Node, so I would have dual 140mm's and probably remove the 120 exhaust and the io shield.

I like the upside down layout of the Silverstone, it's a bit big for my ITX board, but it would give the card a bit more breathing room and I could use my cable extensions again (probably have to, my short cable kit would be a stretch)

I like the looks of both, I do want a window. All I have is a single 2.5 ssd so the entire front cage would come out of the Silverstone so the fans would have no obstruction.

Any input on which would keep my system cooler? Advice on the fans that come with the cases, are they decent or loud?


----------



## miklkit

I like the Silverstone better both esthetically and mechanically. I could almost make that case work with my current hardware. Just lose the hard drive cage and mount two Silverstone FHP-141 fans in the front and cool the CPU with the HE01.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> I'm trying to cool down my system a bit, I know small cases with warm components don't really mix, I knew that when I got the Node. I really like the case, it's looks good and everything, but my card seems to throttle (it hits 80-81c on the stock fan curve for quiet). I've tinkered with fan speed and things like that, but it just gets a little loud, I think the case has negative pressure. I'm also just looking for a change, I've been running this case for a long time now.
> 
> So I'm torn between these two case, my sig show's what would go in:
> 
> Fractal Design Nano S
> 
> Silverstone KL06B-W
> 
> Both windowed version.
> 
> I have a matching 140mm fan for the front of the fractal out of the Node, so I would have dual 140mm's and probably remove the 120 exhaust and the io shield.
> 
> I like the upside down layout of the Silverstone, it's a bit big for my ITX board, but it would give the card a bit more breathing room and I could use my cable extensions again (probably have to, my short cable kit would be a stretch)
> 
> I like the looks of both, I do want a window. All I have is a single 2.5 ssd so the entire front cage would come out of the Silverstone so the fans would have no obstruction.
> 
> Any input on which would keep my system cooler? Advice on the fans that come with the cases, are they decent or loud?


KL06B is 211mm (W) x 375mm (H) x 405mm (D), 32 liters
Nano is 203 x 330 x 400mm

But I'm not thrilled with the vent layout of either case. Both have 2x front, but Nano supports 140mm as well. That is about 30% more airflow at same noise levels.

Why are you changing cases? For more airflow?

Have you looked at Phanteks Enthoo EVOLV.? It is 230 mm x 450 mm x 400 mm and supports 2x 140 front.

Honestly, with Computex 2016 kicking off in a couple more days, I would wait and see what new toys area announced.

Cryorig has 2 new cases coming, and I suspect Phanteks does too.

 [IMG

More images here
http://www.cryorig.com/computex2016.php


----------



## Smanci

Are you sure it isn't a problem with the card itself? Tried running the system with open case? EVGA's 970 line I remember wasn't the coolest one out-of-the-box.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smanci*
> 
> Are you sure it isn't a problem with the card itself? Tried running the system with open case? EVGA's 970 line I remember wasn't the coolest one out-of-the-box.


If you are going to reply to someone, please post their user name so we can tell who you are talking to.
Unless you are like me and talking to yourself.


----------



## .theMetal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> KL06B is 211mm (W) x 375mm (H) x 405mm (D), 32 liters
> Nano is 203 x 330 x 400mm
> 
> But I'm not thrilled with the vent layout of either case. Both have 2x front, but Nano supports 140mm as well. That is about 30% more airflow at same noise levels.
> 
> Why are you changing cases? For more airflow?
> 
> Have you looked at Phanteks Enthoo EVOLV.? It is 230 mm x 450 mm x 400 mm and supports 2x 140 front.
> 
> Honestly, with Computex 2016 kicking off in a couple more days, I would wait and see what new toys area announced.
> 
> Cryorig has 2 new cases coming, and I suspect Phanteks does too.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More images here
> http://www.cryorig.com/computex2016.php


I actually really like that Phanteks Evolv ITX case, I just worry about the 200mm fan in the front. Is it any good at all? I could replace it down the line though.

I could wait and see, I've just been putting it off for a while and it's supposed to be a father's day present from my wife, and she is getting ready to order some stuff anyways. When the wife says "send me what you want to order for your computer" you do it quick.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smanci*
> 
> Are you sure it isn't a problem with the card itself? Tried running the system with open case? EVGA's 970 line I remember wasn't the coolest one out-of-the-box.


Yes I did try to run with the top off the case, it's actually what started this whole I need a new case thing. The card didn't get up past 76 on the stock fan curve and my phanteks fans didn't have to spin up as fast to stay with in it's temp limit, so the system ran much quieter, didn't seem to struggle as much. I think the card just dumps too much heat into the case and the phanteks doesn't have a lot of fresh air to breath. I wouldn't even mind keeping it off, but I can't do that with two toddlers running around the house. Here is the layout, I don't have any drive cages, the ssd sits behind the front panel:


----------



## Loladinas

I was going to brag how my 3770k stays at 50C while rendering in my Node 304, but I've got no GPU in that box so that's a moot point







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> I actually really like that Phanteks Evolv ITX case, I just worry about the 200mm fan in the front. Is it any good at all? I could replace it down the line though.
> 
> I could wait and see, I've just been putting it off for a while and it's supposed to be a father's day present from my wife, and she is getting ready to order some stuff anyways. When the wife says "send me what you want to order for your computer" you do it quick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I did try to run with the top off the case, it's actually what started this whole I need a new case thing. The card didn't get up past 76 on the stock fan curve and my phanteks fans didn't have to spin up as fast to stay with in it's temp limit, so the system ran much quieter, didn't seem to struggle as much. I think the card just dumps too much heat into the case and the phanteks doesn't have a lot of fresh air to breath. I wouldn't even mind keeping it off, but I can't do that with two toddlers running around the house. Here is the layout, I don't have any drive cages, the ssd sits behind the front panel:


I've reversed the flow in my Node 304. Fresh air goes straight to CPU heatsink and gets pulled out of the case by two 92mm fans. I don't have a GPU in that rig tho so I don't know how applicable that would be to you. ...buuuuuut the case has a separate intake for GPU as well, and one more vent for the PSU exhaust, I don't think hot air would stagnate in it too much. Do you use dust filters?


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Smanci*
> 
> Are you sure it isn't a problem with the card itself? Tried running the system with open case? EVGA's 970 line I remember wasn't the coolest one out-of-the-box.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are going to reply to someone, please post their user name so we can tell who you are talking to.
> Unless you are like me and talking to yourself.
Click to expand...

Even better, use the quote button below instead of the reply button.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> I actually really like that Phanteks Evolv ITX case, I just worry about the 200mm fan in the front. Is it any good at all? I could replace it down the line though.
> 
> I could wait and see, I've just been putting it off for a while and it's supposed to be a father's day present from my wife, and she is getting ready to order some stuff anyways. When the wife says "send me what you want to order for your computer" you do it quick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I did try to run with the top off the case, it's actually what started this whole I need a new case thing. The card didn't get up past 76 on the stock fan curve and my phanteks fans didn't have to spin up as fast to stay with in it's temp limit, so the system ran much quieter, didn't seem to struggle as much. I think the card just dumps too much heat into the case and the phanteks doesn't have a lot of fresh air to breath. I wouldn't even mind keeping it off, but I can't do that with two toddlers running around the house. Here is the layout, I don't have any drive cages, the ssd sits behind the front panel:


y
The front fan is marginal at best. I would get a couple of PH-F140SP and change them when you build it They are good replacements at reasonable price. They are near silent at low speed with a pleasant tonal quality when they are audible. I have the ATX version and love it. I'm experimenting with Thermalright TY-147A Sq fans now and while I think i prefer the TY-147A, it is a very close call between them. Yes, if SWMBO say to give her your list, do it! Yesterday!









Just to be sure, you do know there are 3 different Evolv cases; ITX, mATX, and ATX?
Evolv ITX is $69.99 (black) comes with a single PH-F200SP. Need to replace the fan with PH-F140XP or PH-F140SP*
Evov (mATX) is $129.99 (black) comes with 1x PH-F200SP and 1x PH-F140SP fans.
Evolv ATX is $179.99 (black) comes with 3x PH-F140SP fans (2x front and 2x back)

*The reason I say if you go Evolv ITX you might want to get PH-F140 XP is they are PWM. The SP are variable voltage

Is the PH-TC14PE flowing back and out or in the back? If it is back and out, try switching the fans It might just solve your cooing problem with the top working as exhaust .. switch the front to exhaust too. This should help the back get better cool air


----------



## .theMetal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> The front fan is marginal at best. I would get a couple of PH-F140SP and change them when you build it They are good replacements at reasonable price. They are near silent at low speed with a pleasant tonal quality when they are audible. I have the ATX version and love it. I'm experimenting with Thermalright TY-147A Sq fans now and while I think i prefer the TY-147A, it is a very close call between them. Yes, if SWMBO say to give her your list, do it! Yesterday!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be sure, you do know there are 3 different Evolv cases; ITX, mATX, and ATX?
> Evolv ITX is $69.99 (black) comes with a single PH-F200SP. Need to replace the fan with PH-F140XP or PH-F140SP*
> Evov (mATX) is $129.99 (black) comes with 1x PH-F200SP and 1x PH-F140SP fans.
> Evolv ATX is $179.99 (black) comes with 3x PH-F140SP fans (2x front and 2x back)
> 
> *The reason I say if you go Evolv ITX you might want to get PH-F140 XP is they are PWM. The SP are variable voltage
> 
> Is the PH-TC14PE flowing back and out or in the back? If it is back and out, try switching the fans It might just solve your cooing problem with the top working as exhaust .. switch the front to exhaust too. This should help the back get better cool air


Hmm I'm thinking the Evolve ITX might be the one to go with, I might just give it a shot, it's actually a bit cheaper than the other two cases as well. I have a few fans I can put into the front to replace that 200mm until I can get some of those 140's you are talking about.

The heatsink is pushing air out of the back of the case, I did try to flip the fans and the front case fans for reversed airflow a while back, but the results I got were really bad and I have not wanted to try it again. Although that was a while back before I de-lidded processor and still had my 670 card.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> Hmm I'm thinking the Evolve ITX might be the one to go with, I might just give it a shot, it's actually a bit cheaper than the other two cases as well. I have a few fans I can put into the front to replace that 200mm until I can get some of those 140's you are talking about.
> 
> The heatsink is pushing air out of the back of the case, I did try to flip the fans and the front case fans for reversed airflow a while back, but the results I got were really bad and I have not wanted to try it again. Although that was a while back before I de-lidded processor and still had my 670 card.


The Evolvs' are nice cases. But if SWMBO will let you get it and a couple of good fans, either PWM or variable voltage depending on what your motherboard control is so you can use CPU or / and GPU fan/heat control to run case fans so they cycle with them will give you a very quiet system most of the time and only increase in sound level when GPU and/or CPU are working very hard.


----------



## .theMetal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> Hmm I'm thinking the Evolve ITX might be the one to go with, I might just give it a shot, it's actually a bit cheaper than the other two cases as well. I have a few fans I can put into the front to replace that 200mm until I can get some of those 140's you are talking about.
> 
> The heatsink is pushing air out of the back of the case, I did try to flip the fans and the front case fans for reversed airflow a while back, but the results I got were really bad and I have not wanted to try it again. Although that was a while back before I de-lidded processor and still had my 670 card.
> 
> 
> 
> The Evolvs' are nice cases. But if SWMBO will let you get it and a couple of good fans, either PWM or variable voltage depending on what your motherboard control is so you can use CPU or / and GPU fan/heat control to run case fans so they cycle with them will give you a very quiet system most of the time and only increase in sound level when GPU and/or CPU are working very hard.
Click to expand...

As always, I appreciate your help. I went ahead and ordered the Evolv ITX. I will work on some nice 140 pmw fans in a month or two.









My only concern now is that my short cable kit will reach everything. I think it should but we will see.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> As always, I appreciate your help. I went ahead and ordered the Evolv ITX. I will work on some nice 140 pmw fans in a month or two.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only concern now is that my short cable kit will reach everything. I think it should but we will see.


Too bad you are on the west side of the pond or I could probably help you out. but cross-pond shipping is crazy money.

Not sure how short your cables are, but for that small a case they shouldn't need to be too long. They make extensions for not too much money if they are too short.


----------



## .theMetal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Too bad you are on the west side of the pond or I could probably help you out. but cross-pond shipping is crazy money.
> 
> Not sure how short your cables are, but for that small a case they shouldn't need to be too long. They make extensions for not too much money if they are too short.


Yea way too much to ship over an ocean, I appreciate it though.

These are the cables:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812162043&cm_re=pp05-e-_-12-162-043-_-Product

I have the cables that came with the supply if they are too short, but these are super flexible and easy to work with, they clean up a lot of clutter.


----------



## MicroCat

You might want to swap that weak 200mm fan sooner rather than later. Otherwise you may have pushed your system out of frying pan into the fire. All the reviews I've seen about that case complain about lack of airflow and high GPU temps.

From the SPCR review:
Quote:


> The Enthoo Evolv ITX is an attempt by Phanteks at a budget mini-ITX tower for enthusiasts but it sadly can't provide enough airflow to succeed. The front panel allows fresh air to enter through moderately-sized slits on the sides but it's simply not enough. As a result, the giant fan, which could have been a killer feature, is crippled. With the system starved for airflow, our GTX 980 had to run at fairly high fan speeds to keep it adequately cooled on load. I can only imagine how a more power hungry 250W+ card would fare under the same conditions. An exhaust fan would certainly help but the fact a single 200 mm fan isn't sufficient is indicative of a critically flawed design. Ventilation is such a problem that even moving a hard drive an inch closer to the underside of the video card caused a substantial cooling deficit.
> 
> Appeasing watercooling aficionados seems to a big part of the Evolv ITX's strategy with heavy emphasis placed on the mounting options provided for a pump and reservoir, along with a clever offset 120~280 mm radiator placement on to the ceiling that makes it more compatible with thicker variants. However, the exhaust points on the top of the case are just as restrictive, if not more so, than the front panel, hampering this capability. The top panel only has a handful of thin slits along the sides and a modest sized grill at the back. It should also be noted that if you install a custom loop, 3.5 inch drive support is lost as they use the same mounting positions.


Review Link

The Fractal Nano or Fractal 500 or Core V1 would have been the cooler option, imo.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MicroCat*
> 
> You might want to swap that weak 200mm fan sooner rather than later. Otherwise you may have pushed your system out of frying pan into the fire. All the reviews I've seen about that case complain about lack of airflow and high GPU temps.
> 
> From the SPCR review:
> Review Link
> 
> The Fractal Nano or Fractal 500 or Core V1 would have been the cooler option, imo.


ciarlatano ran his Enthoo Luxe with 200mm front fan testing for quite awhile. CPU cooler intake was about 10c warmer than room when stress testing. Not the best, but not terrible. When he changed to 2x PH-F140SP in front with PH-F200SP in top as exhaust (I don't like top exhaust) temps only dropped 3-4c.

My Luxe CPU cooler intake is 4-6c above ambient at full load with 2x PH-F140SP front intakes, no exhaust. Temps improve about 2c with PSU cover removed and bottom intake added.


----------



## MicroCat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> ciarlatano ran his Enthoo Luxe with 200mm front fan testing for quite awhile. CPU cooler intake was about 10c warmer than room when stress testing. Not the best, but not terrible. When he changed to 2x PH-F140SP in front with PH-F200SP in top as exhaust (I don't like top exhaust) temps only dropped 3-4c.
> 
> My Luxe CPU cooler intake is 4-6c above ambient at full load with 2x PH-F140SP front intakes, no exhaust. Temps improve about 2c with PSU cover removed and bottom intake added.


You're making the case for the wrong case.









This is the little itx one, the Evolv ITX. Haven't found a review or user report praising its air flow - but being a house cat I probably don't get out enough.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MicroCat*
> 
> You're making the case for the wrong case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the little itx one, the Evolv ITX. Haven't found a review or user report praising its air flow - but being a house cat I probably don't get out enough.


Indeed, sheltered life and all.









I was trying to show the difference in temps based on airflow of 2x 140 mm vs 1x 200 mm fans. The 200mm fan will work, but not near as well as 2x 140mm fans will. I wouldn't be surprised if 1x 140 mm gave same temps as 1x 200mm does.

Edit: Many peeps seem to think small cases do not flow as well as larger cases. This not at all true. The only problem with smaller cases is many do not have the needed vent area to follow the amount of air many components need. But some do. 2x 140mm intakes with matching or larger exhaust vent area is enough for most systems


----------



## .theMetal

I have a fractal 140mm Silent Series R2 and an Areocool shark 140mm to put in the front of the case when it gets here. I also have a Corsair 120mm off of the original H50 clc I could throw into the front bottom front of the case. I have a microcenter about 30 minutes away if I can't wait on buying some new fans for the front. The Evolv seems to have more exhaust out of the back, I also run without an io shield. I will also be mounting my ssd in the back of the case with the cables and taking out every drive cage/piece of metal I can from the case so there are no obstructions. All I run is a single 500gb ssd

I should have a lot more air moving through the system than I do with the node. The stock 92mm fans don't move a whole lot of air, and they have to pull it through the front section before it get's in the case and there is 0 air blowing around the graphics card.

Worst case, it's not a whole lot better, but I will have had fun rebuilding the system again and get to try out a new case/case manufacture









edited - added the part about the ssd


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> I have a fractal 140mm Silent Series R2 and an Areocool shark 140mm to put in the front of the case when it gets here. I also have a Corsair 120mm off of the original H50 clc I could throw into the front bottom front of the case. I have a microcenter about 30 minutes away if I can't wait on buying some new fans for the front. The Evolv seems to have more exhaust out of the back, I also run without an io shield. I will also be mounting my ssd in the back of the case with the cables and taking out every drive cage/piece of metal I can from the case so there are no obstructions. All I run is a single 500gb ssd
> 
> I should have a lot more air moving through the system than I do with the node. The stock 92mm fans don't move a whole lot of air, and they have to pull it through the front section before it get's in the case and there is 0 air blowing around the graphics card.
> 
> Worst case, it's not a whole lot better, but I will have had fun rebuilding the system again and get to try out a new case/case manufacture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edited - added the part about the ssd


I posted on your new thread. Front to back flow is probably best with Evolv.

R1 Universal will fit, but the back of 1st cooler will be about 8mm from front of 2nd cooler.









Edit: I could scale motherboard and coolers to same scale if you like.


----------



## TK421

@doyll
Ambient intake 30c
Air before cooler 31c
Air after cooler 43c
CPU 73-76c
CPU TDP 170W 4.2GHz 1.168v | 4GHz 1.163v
Enthoo Luxe, 2x NF-A14 front intake, 1x NF-A14 rear exhaust, 2x NF-A14 top exhaust (front, rear), 2x Gentle Typhoon 2150 p/p middle top exhaust on radiator
Monitoring using ASUS fan extension and thermistor

Any way this can be improved?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> @doyll
> Ambient intake 30c
> Air before cooler 31c
> Air after cooler 43c
> CPU 73-76c
> CPU TDP 170W 4.2GHz 1.168v | 4GHz 1.163v
> Enthoo Luxe, 2x NF-A14 front intake, 1x NF-A14 rear exhaust, 2x NF-A14 top exhaust (front, rear), 2x Gentle Typhoon 2150 p/p middle top exhaust on radiator
> Monitoring using ASUS fan extension and thermistor
> 
> Any way this can be improved?


Lower the ambient temp?








Use a Peltier?








Install a custom loop?









Okay, enough joking. I lost my memory here somewhere so don't know what your system is and am too lazy to search for it (memory or your specs).








Your case flow is obviously very good!








1c difference is very, very good .. assuming this when CPU is 73-76c.


----------



## .theMetal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I posted on your new thread. Front to back flow is probably best with Evolv.
> 
> R1 Universal will fit, but the back of 1st cooler will be about 8mm from front of 2nd cooler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I could scale motherboard and coolers to same scale if you like.


Hmm I don't recall starting any new threads, must have been someone else. Thanks anyways though!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> Hmm I don't recall starting any new threads, must have been someone else. Thanks anyways though!










I got my wires crossed and short-circuited.. think my ear may of leaked some smoke too. Ignore that post.









Evolv does have a nice open back. With good intake fans I don't notice any difference in temps with back fan running or not in my Evolv ATX. But a couple good pressure rated intakes make a big difference.


----------



## outofmyheadyo

What do people think about the TY147A fan for aircoolers, is it decent or will I see a significant improvement with another fan thats still under 30db?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outofmyheadyo*
> 
> What do people think about the TY147A fan for aircoolers, is it decent or will I see a significant improvement with another fan thats still under 30db?


I do not know of anyone who was not satisfied with them. After all they are sold primarily as a cooler fan on coolers.
TY-147A is every bit as good as any similar fan, usually lower priced and many of us think it is slightly better.
I don't know of any fan that is significantly better, none, not even at 2 or 3 times the price.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Lower the ambient temp?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Use a Peltier?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Install a custom loop?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, enough joking. I lost my memory here somewhere so don't know what your system is and am too lazy to search for it (memory or your specs).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your case flow is obviously very good!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1c difference is very, very good .. assuming this when CPU is 73-76c.


So unless lower ambient no other way to improve cpu temp?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> So unless lower ambient no other way to improve cpu temp?


Higher airflow fans on cooler, but that will also increase the noise.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Higher airflow fans on cooler, but that will also increase the noise.


I run all NF-A14 and CPU temp to 500rpm idle.

Will hit 100% at 70c CPU load, front fan doesn't have the filter anymore.


----------



## LostParticle

@doyll, quick question!

- Is it safe to connect 2 x Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 3000 to my 4-pin CPU fan header (using an Y-split cable)? I am using the ASRock Z97 OC Formula.

I have searched in the manual but I have not found how much is the maximum power draw of this fan header (the one I should not exceed). Can you help, please?
*IPPC-3000 specs*.

Thank you.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> @doyll, quick question!
> 
> - Is it safe to connect 2 x Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 3000 to my 4-pin CPU fan header (using an Y-split cable)? I am using the ASRock Z97 OC Formula.
> 
> I have searched in the manual but I have not found how much is the maximum power draw of this fan header (the one I should not exceed). Can you help, please?
> *IPPC-3000 specs*.
> 
> Thank you.


Most motherboards (if not all) have 1 amp fan headers. 1 amp means 12 watts. One of those fans will draw 6.6 watts. You do the math








It *probably* won't blow up or anything and I'm sure there are people who run their fan headers over spec, but I would *not recommend it* for peace of mind. Basically, if you want to run fast fans, you run them off a fan controller or your PSU + optional PWM cable to your motherboard.


----------



## GHADthc

Here is a question for you guys, say I can fit a 120mm fan (Will need to be 25mm thick at most I would say) in the rear of my TJ08-E with the Phanteks heat sink and 3x TY-143, which fan would be a good pair up to be able to exhaust fast enough?

I will be running all fans in the system via PWM, but I want all of their fan curves to match as close as possible, so that a fairly consistent stream of air is passing through the case intake/heatsink/case exhaust...I may not even get a 120mm fan for the rear of the case, but if there is room, I am thinking of making a shroud connecting the rear of third TY-143 to the front of the 120mm rear case fan, so that there is as little recycled warm air as possible.

Also thinking of upgrading the AP181 to an AP182...but they are so expensive, I can't find them anywhere in Aus, and the cost on ebay is ludicrous, and shipping from other countries is also atrocious).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> I run all NF-A14 and CPU temp to 500rpm idle.
> 
> Will hit 100% at 70c CPU load, front fan doesn't have the filter anymore.


You ask how to get more cooling out of the coolers to lower CPU temps, then start talking about idle rpm when I say more airflow.








What does that have to do with getting fans that flow more air at full speed?
I guess you did not understand
Quote:


> Higher airflow fans on cooler, but that will also increase the noise.












Sorry, I'm in a foul mood, and you were just too close.









@LostParticle
What Loladinas said.








Use a PWM splitter or hub that uses PSU power
This way motherboard fan header supplies PWM signal and monitora one fan's rpm with PSU supplying power.

Look at index in opening post. This power and control is all explained in like the 4th post.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Here is a question for you guys, say I can fit a 120mm fan (Will need to be 25mm thick at most I would say) in the rear of my TJ08-E with the Phanteks heat sink and 3x TY-143, which fan would be a good pair up to be able to exhaust fast enough?
> 
> I will be running all fans in the system via PWM, but I want all of their fan curves to match as close as possible, so that a fairly consistent stream of air is passing through the case intake/heatsink/case exhaust...I may not even get a 120mm fan for the rear of the case, but if there is room, I am thinking of making a shroud connecting the rear of third TY-143 to the front of the 120mm rear case fan, so that there is as little recycled warm air as possible.
> 
> Also thinking of upgrading the AP181 to an AP182...but they are so expensive, I can't find them anywhere in Aus, and the cost on ebay is ludicrous, and shipping from other countries is also atrocious).


Mate, my advice is our case needs immediate surgery to remove the rear vent. Then a rear exhaust fan is even needed.

I usually don't use the I/O shield around motherboard connections in back or the PCIe slot covers. These both block area air can flow out of case through, and the more exhaust area their is when we have good intake fans gives us better airflow.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Mate, my advice is our case needs immediate surgery to remove the rear vent. Then a rear exhaust fan is even needed.
> 
> I usually don't use the I/O shield around motherboard connections in back or the PCIe slot covers. These both block area air can flow out of case through, and the more exhaust area their is when we have good intake fans gives us better airflow.


Yeah I`m aware of this, I attempted this mod on a tj08-e not long ago, and apart from doing a pretty botch job, it totally comprimised the structual integrity of the rear of the case, unfortunately the steel is pretty thin and poor quality...it did however give good temps and lower the overall sound signature of the computer, its just I plan on selling this build around the time Zen hits. Edit: If you didn`t gather, I took all the parts of worth from the case and then scrapped the chassis, the back end was rather flexible once half the material was gone from it lol...I got another one off of my brother for $50 with a 600w psu and blu ray burner in it.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Yeah I`m aware of this, I attempted this mod on a tj08-e not long ago, and apart from doing a pretty botch job, it totally comprimised the structual integrity of the rear of the case, unfortunately the steel is pretty thin and poor quality...it did however give good temps and lower the overall sound signature of the computer, its just I plan on selling this build around the time Zen hits. Edit: If you didn`t gather, I took all the parts of worth from the case and then scrapped the chassis, the back end was rather flexible once half the material was gone from it lol...I got another one off of my brother for $50 with a 600w psu and blu ray burner in it.


I hear you. I have some engineering / design background, so know what to and what not to remove. It's sad that if we improve out systems with physical modifications it lowers resale value, but it indeed does.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I hear you. I have some engineering / design background, so know what to and what not to remove. It's sad that if we improve out systems with physical modifications it lowers resale value, but it indeed does.


I could possibly reinforce the rear end of the case with a steel L-bracket, and rivet it in, that might allow me to cut out the rear grill on the fan at least, the first time I made a bit of a mess, and I also cut out the grill that sits beside the rear pci-e slots, which wasn`t entirely necessary lol...I also cut out the grill for the psu fan at the top of the case, but I dont think I`ll bother with that either this time, I dont think it made a big enough difference.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> I could possibly reinforce the rear end of the case with a steel L-bracket, and rivet it in, that might allow me to cut out the rear grill on the fan at least, the first time I made a bit of a mess, and I also cut out the grill that sits beside the rear pci-e slots, which wasn`t entirely necessary lol...I also cut out the grill for the psu fan at the top of the case, but I dont think I`ll bother with that either this time, I dont think it made a big enough difference.


Have you tried using no rear fan and PCIe slot covers removed?


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Have you tried using no rear fan and PCIe slot covers removed?


Yep, thats how I had it set-up, no mobo io shield, no pci slot covers, no rear fan, and big gaping holes, and it worked a treat, but I`m hesitant to permanently mod this second case...though this reinforcing bracket idea is running through my head...I`m also keen to fab up a shroud to force the heated air from the heat sink straight out the rear so there is no recycled air escaping (or as little as possible more like).


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You ask how to get more cooling out of the coolers to lower CPU temps, then start talking about idle rpm when I say more airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does that have to do with getting fans that flow more air at full speed?
> I guess you did not understand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'm in a foul mood, and you were just too close.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @LostParticle
> What Loladinas said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Use a PWM splitter or hub that uses PSU power
> This way motherboard fan header supplies PWM signal and monitora one fan's rpm with PSU supplying power.
> 
> Look at index in opening post. This power and control is all explained in like the 4th post.


Ah yes. I am an idiot.

I don't know what fans to get that supply more air than NF-A14 but is quieter.

I do have 2 gentle typhoon 1850 that can replace the front intake fans if that's better. Since GTs have more static pressure?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Yep, thats how I had it set-up, no mobo io shield, no pci slot covers, no rear fan, and big gaping holes, and it worked a treat, but I`m hesitant to permanently mod this second case...though this reinforcing bracket idea is running through my head...I`m also keen to fab up a shroud to force the heated air from the heat sink straight out the rear so there is no recycled air escaping (or as little as possible more like).


A duct is great, but what about all the heated air coming off of your GPU? Where is it supposed to be flowing and leaving the case?
I just tried to post an image of what I would cut out and remove from the back, but OCN image upload is not working.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Ah yes. I am an idiot.
> 
> I don't know what fans to get that supply more air than NF-A14 but is quieter.
> 
> I do have 2 gentle typhoon 1850 that can replace the front intake fans if that's better. Since GTs have more static pressure?


Not an idiot at all. I don't know of any quieter fans that move more air either.

I do know of a few that are just as quiet at same rpm, but can be ran at much higher speeds moving a lot more air, but also make more noise doing it.

Are you speed controlling and cycling case fan airflow with cooler airflow? I'm not forgetful, I just don't remember very well. Can't forget what isn't remembered in the first place.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> A duct is great, but what about all the heated air coming off of your GPU? Where is it supposed to be flowing and leaving the case?
> I just tried to post an image of what I would cut out and remove from the back, but OCN image upload is not working.


There is still the openings from not using PCI slot covers, as well as a bunch of little square holes in the rear, beside where the pci slots are, I could even reverse the PSU mounting, and have it drawing air in from inside the top of the case and exhausting it, and flip the fans on the Morpheus to push the air up towards the PSU (It will heat the PSU some more, but that shouldn't be much of an issue, they are rated for very high temps)...and just cut a piece of aluminum that matches the shape of the filter that sits ontop of the roof of the case (where the PSU would usually exhaust out of)...paint it and just glue some magnets onto it, that way I can cover up the unused vent.

Edit: http://www.thermalright.com/images/cooler/le_grand_macho/support/r4/r4.jpg
Wish Thermalright made one of these for the TY-143 shaped fans, would make my job much easier


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> There is still the openings from not using PCI slot covers, as well as a bunch of little square holes in the rear, beside where the pci slots are, I could even reverse the PSU mounting, and have it drawing air in from inside the top of the case and exhausting it, and flip the fans on the Morpheus to push the air up towards the PSU (It will heat the PSU some more, but that shouldn't be much of an issue, they are rated for very high temps)...and just cut a piece of aluminum that matches the shape of the filter that sits ontop of the roof of the case (where the PSU would usually exhaust out of)...paint it and just glue some magnets onto it, that way I can cover up the unused vent.
> 
> Edit: http://www.thermalright.com/images/cooler/le_grand_macho/support/r4/r4.jpg
> Wish Thermalright made one of these for the TY-143 shaped fans, would make my job much easier


The top vent is PSU intake, not exhaust. PSU exhauust is out the back.
Here's what I would remove.


What are you running for intakes to supply the 130cfm of TY-143 and approx 130cfm for GPU cooler?


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> The top vent is PSU intake, not exhaust. PSU exhauust is out the back.
> Here's what I would remove.
> 
> 
> What are you running for intakes to supply the 130cfm of TY-143 and approx 130cfm for GPU cooler?


Whoops, meant intake for the PSU...as for intake in the front of the case, currently AP181, but I am thinking of either getting AP182, or maybe modding the front to fit 2x 120 or 140mm fans (it has mounting holes for either 180mm or 140mm atm, but judging by the PS07, I think I could get 2x 120mm in their pretty comfortably.

As for your picture, that's how I was running the old case, except I also cut a square out beside where the PCI slots are, but I wont be bothering to do that his time, and if I'm gonna cut out the 120mm fan grill, I am going to reinforce the case in the small amount of material between the rear 120mm cutout and where the motherboard IO shield slots in, because that is where the structure gets extremely weak and warps.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> ...I'm not forgetful, I just don't remember very well. Can't forget what isn't remembered in the first place.


You sound like me. I have a good memory...it's just short.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> You sound like me. I have a good memory...it's just short.


Nope, tha's forgetful.
I'm not forgetful.
Because i don't remember it at all.
Must be remembered before it can be forgotten.









Wife says I have a hearing problem.
I don't.
But I do have a listening problem depending on what is being said and who is saying it.

Next time you have a group of half a dozen couples together in a open space (park or yard), watch and see how many times one spouse hollers something to the other. Notice how spouse always asks "what!?' and the others around them answer them with what was said.
Only one who didn't 'hear' it was spouse. The other 3 or 4 standing right next the them hear it no problem. That's not a hear problem. It's a listening problem. We listen to others' spouses, but not our own.









I know, it's kinda a joke, but it really is true.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> ...Wife says I have a hearing problem.
> I don't.
> But I do have a listening problem depending on what is being said and who is saying it...


That's called selective hearing.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> That's called selective hearing.


Yeah, and after a few years it becomes unintentional.


----------



## GHADthc

Funny you should mention that...my wifes nickname for me (welll one of， anyhow) is `bungol` which is cebuano for deaf


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Funny you should mention that...my wifes nickname for me (welll one of， anyhow) is `bungol` which is cebuano for deaf


Maybe she's just calling you a bunghole







.

Either way, AP181 and AP182 are pretty much the same fan (except different bearing thus different bearing noise) up to 1200 RPM. How often do you run your AP181 full speed? Mine sits at ~300 RPM most of the time, sometimes goes up to 500 RPM. FM181 has slightly more airflow per RPM (not sure about per dB), but it lacks air channels. I suppose it would only be an issue if you ran without a fan on your heatsink.


----------



## doyll

To me the problem is a single 130cfm (at full speed with no obstructions) is supplying all the air for a cooler with 3x 130cfm fans stacked as well as 2x 120mm fans on the GPU cooler. End result is component fans are flowing about twice as much air as case fans are flowing to / from them.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> To me the problem is a single 130cfm (at full speed with no obstructions) is supplying all the air for a cooler with 3x 130cfm fans stacked as well as 2x 120mm fans on the GPU cooler. End result is component fans are flowing about twice as much air as case fans are flowing to / from them.


Well yeah, but if you would run TY-143 full speed you'd actually go deaf. Not the selective kind of deaf.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Well yeah, but if you would run TY-143 full speed you'd actually go deaf. Not the selective kind of deaf.


True, but I can't hear you. Good thing we are keyboarding here.

Many who use fans like the TY-143 do run them above 1300rpm .. like 1800rpm. while I wouldn't want to listen to any fan at 1800rom, they are not all that bad even at that speed.

I stated specifications, but if both are at half speed the case airflow is still not enough. Combine the other restictions on case fans against component cooler fans and it's even worse. Obviously it's working, but I suspect a couple of TY-147A fans on cooler would do just as well.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> True, but I can't hear you. Good thing we are keyboarding here.
> 
> Many who use fans like the TY-143 do run them above 1300rpm .. like 1800rpm. while I wouldn't want to listen to any fan at 1800rom, they are not all that bad even at that speed.
> 
> I stated specifications, but if both are at half speed the case airflow is still not enough. Combine the other restictions on case fans against component cooler fans and it's even worse. Obviously it's working, but I suspect a couple of TY-147A fans on cooler would do just as well.


Yup, in my use case the TY-147A would've been perfect, but they were literally twice the cost AND they were sold out, so I would've had to order them from another source where shipping would've cost even more. And besides, I got lucky and my TY-143's run at 300 RPM as well









I swear, if I ever get the will to renovate the apartment I'll drill a hole in the wall and put my computer in another room, and just run cables to it.

EDIT: Just tried it, basically anything under 1000RPM is bearable, more so in the summer, mainly because I keep a window open and there's wind and birds and pleasant things happening outside to mask all the *WHIIRRRRRRR*. I have issues.


----------



## LostParticle

Thanks, doyll & Loladinas, I could use my Aquaero 5 LT but I finally ended up connecting one of the IPPC-3000 to my Chassis_1, 4-pin PWM, fan header. The other one is connected to my CPU_1, 4-pin fan header.

I've installed my system back into my chassis.

Corsair Air 540, ASRock Z97 OC Formula, Intel i7-4790K. I thought to try something different this time. _(Just trying out a few things, it's not that I'm trying to resolve some problem here)_

On the front side I mounted my Corsair H110 with two Noctua NF-A14 IPPC-3000, pushing air inside the chassis. The fans are mounted on the outside of the front panel. I closed it with the front panel grill and on the outside of it I've placed the dust filter that comes with the chassis. Thermal Grizzly Kryonout paste, small pea method.

No other fans are installed in my system. The top panel grill is not mounted.

My tests, similar to those on *post #431* and *post #433*. "Everything" is shown in the screenshots.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!









My conclusion is that I can run my system (absolutely) fine under this configuration. Having the Corsair H110 blowing inside my chassis - and no other fans running on the system - causes no temperature rise on my GPU and SSD. The only significant temperature rise is observed on my (ASRock) motherboard but I am not sure if this isn't a mobo-specific. The VRMs of my ASRock, for example, run cooler. All these can be seen in my screenshots.

Besides stress testing it is of immense interest / importance to me how my system behaves on a regular day, when I perform all my regular tasks.

Here's a screenshot I just took today, 30 May 2016, showing this. The Averages count.

Ambient (room) temperature = 27 C
Monitoring for more than 8 hours.


Thank you.

@doyll, your comment?


----------



## miklkit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Well yeah, but if you would run TY-143 full speed you'd actually go deaf. Not the selective kind of deaf.


I beg to differ! When they are running at 2600 rpm I can still carry on a conversation in a normal tone of voice. No yelling or raised voices. They normally run around 1800 rpm while gaming.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> I beg to differ! When they are running at 2600 rpm I can still carry on a conversation in a normal tone of voice. No yelling or raised voices. They normally run around 1800 rpm while gaming.


You can have a conversation while doing 80 MPH in a car, but that doesn't mean you have to enjoy the acoustics of it. Both my father and grandfather have started to lose their hearing in their fifties, so I've got a couple more decades left, but for now I'm very particular about noise.


----------



## miklkit

Then you really wouldn't like my 1967 Mustang with its headers, 3" pipes, aluminum mufflers that uh don't, and a boxy body with lots of wind noise. But my 2 ton plushmobile is pretty quiet. It's quieter than my tinnitus and that is how i judge stuff. Birds and squirrels are a bit noisy.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> To me the problem is a single 130cfm (at full speed with no obstructions) is supplying all the air for a cooler with 3x 130cfm fans stacked as well as 2x 120mm fans on the GPU cooler. End result is component fans are flowing about twice as much air as case fans are flowing to / from them.


I intend to limit all 3 TY-143`s rpm with a PWM fancurve, they aren`t going to each be pushing 130cfm, maybe 100 odd cfm with all 3 combined, I`m also thinking of replacing the AP181 with 2x Noctua NF-A12 IPPC 3000`s and have them run at a bit higher rpm than the rest of the fans, as to keep the pressure positive. I`m thinking the 2x noctua fans will do a better job than the AP181, and I can control their fan curve through the mobo`s bios.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> I intend to limit all 3 TY-143`s rpm with a PWM fancurve, they aren`t going to each be pushing 130cfm, maybe 100 odd cfm with all 3 combined, I`m also thinking of replacing the AP181 with 2x Noctua NF-A12 IPPC 3000`s and have them run at a bit higher rpm than the rest of the fans, as to keep the pressure positive. I`m thinking the 2x noctua fans will do a better job than the AP181, and I can control their fan curve through the mobo`s bios.


The only reason stacking fans increases airflow is because it increased their ability to overcome pressure. Their 130cfm rating doesn't change, but each additional fan does increase the static pressure. This increase pressure means more airflow through restrictions. But an air cooler is not very restrictive. This is why even twin towers tested with a middle fan are only a couple degrees warmer than using 2x push/push fans .. and why adding a 3rd back pull fan makes little to no difference.

I think the NF-A12 IPPC 3000 is probably better. They are rated 109..9cfm each, so 2x of them is max of 219.8cfm .. much more than AP181 is rated. Plus their static pressure rating is 7,63 mm H₂O compared to AP181's 2.45 mmH2O, so their P/Q curve would give much more airlfow


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> The only reason stacking fans increases airflow is because it increased their ability to overcome pressure. Their 130cfm rating doesn't change, but each additional fan does increase the static pressure. This increase pressure means more airflow through restrictions. But an air cooler is not very restrictive. This is why even twin towers tested with a middle fan are only a couple degrees warmer than using 2x push/push fans .. and why adding a 3rd back pull fan makes little to no difference.
> 
> I think the NF-A12 IPPC 3000 is probably better. They are rated 109..9cfm each, so 2x of them is max of 219.8cfm .. much more than AP181 is rated. Plus their static pressure rating is 7,63 mm H₂O compared to AP181's 2.45 mmH2O, so their P/Q curve would give much more airlfow


Ah okay..thats a misconception out of the way then! The third fan is a bit more for aesthetics than anything, if it improves the temps even ever so slightly, thats an added bonus..or I could possibly repurpose the third one for something else entirely..as for the Noctua fans, what you have said is the train of thought I had, they should be able to feed the 2x SP120`s on the GPU and the 2-3 TY143`s properly...thats the plan at least.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Ah okay..thats a misconception out of the way then! The third fan is a bit more for aesthetics than anything, if it improves the temps even ever so slightly, thats an added bonus..or I could possibly repurpose the third one for something else entirely..as for the Noctua fans, what you have said is the train of thought I had, they should be able to feed the 2x SP120`s on the GPU and the 2-3 TY143`s properly...thats the plan at least.


Indeed!
I don't know about the Nocs 'be able to feed .. properly', but but they should be able to do it better than the AP181.

Keep in mind whatever fans are in the front need the panel separating their intake and exhaust sides nees ot be solid / no holes / sealed so the air they are pushing into case cannot leak back out the front. Same applies for any other holes in case that might let cool air out that they are trying to supply to GPU and CPU.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Indeed!
> I don't know about the Nocs 'be able to feed .. properly', but but they should be able to do it better than the AP181.
> 
> Keep in mind whatever fans are in the front need the panel separating their intake and exhaust sides nees ot be solid / no holes / sealed so the air they are pushing into case cannot leak back out the front. Same applies for any other holes in case that might let cool air out that they are trying to supply to GPU and CPU.


If I'm understanding you correctly, I had considered this, and planned for when I mod the front of the case, to just be a panel with two holes for the fans to intake from, no excess, the rest will be blocked off.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> If I'm understanding you correctly, I had considered this, and planned for when I mod the front of the case, to just be a panel with two holes for the fans to intake from, no excess, the rest will be blocked off.


Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. You could use zip-ties to attach the 2x 120mm fans together and mount them to case front frame top and bottom with cardboard on each side of fans to cover the 180mm fan hole.

Just brain-storming here, so may not be a good idea;
Have you considered using 4x 92mm fans? For example NF-A9PWM are 2000rpm 78.9 m3/h, 2.28 mm H2O & 22.8 dB(A). 4x of them increases sound level by 6 dB so a total rated sound level of 28.8 dB and 315.6 m3/h (185.6 cfm)

NF-F12 iPPC-3000 PWM . 120x120x25mm . 3000rpm . 43,5dB . 186,7m3/h . 7,63mm H2O . 4-Pin PWM
Let's assume you end up running around 2000 rpm with the 3000 rpm fans.
NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM . 120x120x25mm . 2000rpm . 29,7dB . 121,8m3/h . 3,94mm H2O 4-Pin PWM . 2x 121,8 = 243.6m3/h . 32.7dB
NF-A9 PWM . . . . . . . . . . 92x92x25mm . . 2000rpom . 22,8dB . 78,9m3/h . . 2,28mm H2O 4-Pin PWM . . 4x 78.9 = 315.6m3/h . 28.8dB

Sound level is not much (3.8dB and 3dB change is what it takes for most of use to hear a difference.)
Total rated airflow is up, but pressure rating is down by 1.66mm .. Probably not much difference in overall airflow.

So much for that brainstorm.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. You could use zip-ties to attach the 2x 120mm fans together and mount them to case front frame top and bottom with cardboard on each side of fans to cover the 180mm fan hole.
> 
> Just brain-storming here, so may not be a good idea;
> Have you considered using 4x 92mm fans? For example NF-A9PWM are 2000rpm 78.9 m3/h, 2.28 mm H2O & 22.8 dB(A). 4x of them increases sound level by 6 dB so a total rated sound level of 28.8 dB and 315.6 m3/h (185.6 cfm)
> 
> NF-F12 iPPC-3000 PWM . 120x120x25mm . 3000rpm . 43,5dB . 186,7m3/h . 7,63mm H2O . 4-Pin PWM
> Let's assume you end up running around 2000 rpm with the 3000 rpm fans.
> NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM . 120x120x25mm . 2000rpm . 29,7dB . 121,8m3/h . 3,94mm H2O 4-Pin PWM . 2x 121,8 = 243.6m3/h . 32.7dB
> NF-A9 PWM . . . . . . . . . . 92x92x25mm . . 2000rpom . 22,8dB . 78,9m3/h . . 2,28mm H2O 4-Pin PWM . . 4x 78.9 = 315.6m3/h . 28.8dB
> 
> Sound level is not much (3.8dB and 3dB change is what it takes for most of use to hear a difference.)
> Total rated airflow is up, but pressure rating is down by 1.66mm .. Probably not much difference in overall airflow.
> 
> So much for that brainstorm.


I'm going to use a sheet of steel and have it powder coated black, I was going to rivet it in place and screw the fans in place...wait so if I used 4 of those 92mm fans at full speed they would only equate to 28.8db? But produce 185.6 cfm? Hmmmmm


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WAKE UP!! READ WHAT I POSTED!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPECIFICATIONS ARE RATED NOT ACTUAL FLOW!
> 
> ..steps back counting to 10 & takes deep breath..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sometimes I get a littel over tense with too much coffee


I gathered neither of the fan options will actually produce the flow they are specced for, but do you think its really worth entertaining the idea of 4x 92mm fans? (One thing that bothers me is the colour of the old Noctua fans, but I can't deny that they have pleasant sound signatures).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> I gathered neither of the fan options will actually produce the flow they are specced for, but do you think its really worth entertaining the idea of 4x 92mm fans? (One thing that bothers me is the colour of the old Noctua fans, but I can't deny that they have pleasant sound signatures).


My last sentence after the brainstorm means it doesn't matter.

Both fan setups are about the same.
Really, it's your case that is the problem.








Or .. maybe .. it's the high demands of your big GPU cooler and mega-flow TY-143 fans.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> My last sentence after the brainstorm means it doesn't matter.
> 
> Both fan setups are about the same.
> Really, it's your case that is the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or .. maybe .. it's the high demands of your big GPU cooler and mega-flow TY-143 fans.


Fair enough, I think it will be less of a hassle to just go with the two 120mm fans, will look a bit nicer too (not that its really top priority, but I've mucked around with colour matching other items, and sleeving, so I may as well go the whole hog).

The case is pretty impressive for what it is in my opinion, I have just crammed it full to the brim with heat sinks, and am getting to the point of superfluous incremental upgrades/additions, which is most likely more trouble than its worth..but why not? I am having a bit of fun mucking around with air cooling, since I've been on water cooling for the last couple of years (and intend to get back into it soon).


----------



## GHADthc

Actually....after closer inspection of the dimensions I have to work with, 2x 120mm will not fit, because the layout of the case is quite a bit different from the PS07...I think I will have to put your 4x 92mm fans idea into action after all! It will certainly be different, that's for sure ha hah!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Actually....after closer inspection of the dimensions I have to work with, 2x 120mm will not fit, because the layout of the case is quite a bit different from the PS07...I think I will have to put your 4x 92mm fans idea into action after all! It will certainly be different, that's for sure ha hah!


Have you thought of trying the TY-143 a an intake?
It would be rather simple to cut a piece of cardbaord to replace the 181 with a hole for your 3rd TY-143 to see what it does.

It's all fun and games for some of us .. that is until wife or money runs out .. or both.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Thanks, doyll & Loladinas, I could use my Aquaero 5 LT but I finally ended up connecting one of the IPPC-3000 to my Chassis_1, 4-pin PWM, fan header. The other one is connected to my CPU_1, 4-pin fan header.
> 
> I've installed my system back into my chassis.
> 
> Corsair Air 540, ASRock Z97 OC Formula, Intel i7-4790K. I thought to try something different this time. _(Just trying out a few things, it's not that I'm trying to resolve some problem here)_
> 
> On the front side I mounted my Corsair H110 with two Noctua NF-A14 IPPC-3000, pushing air inside the chassis. The fans are mounted on the outside of the front panel. I closed it with the front panel grill and on the outside of it I've placed the dust filter that comes with the chassis. Thermal Grizzly Kryonout paste, small pea method.
> 
> No other fans are installed in my system. The top panel grill is not mounted.
> 
> My tests, similar to those on *post #431* and *post #433*. "Everything" is shown in the screenshots.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My conclusion is that I can run my system (absolutely) fine under this configuration. Having the Corsair H110 blowing inside my chassis - and no other fans running on the system - causes no temperature rise on my GPU and SSD. The only significant temperature rise is observed on my (ASRock) motherboard but I am not sure if this isn't a mobo-specific. The VRMs of my ASRock, for example, run cooler. All these can be seen in my screenshots.
> 
> Besides stress testing it is of immense interest / importance to me how my system behaves on a regular day, when I perform all my regular tasks.
> 
> Here's a screenshot I just took today, 30 May 2016, showing this. The Averages count.
> 
> Ambient (room) temperature = 27 C
> Monitoring for more than 8 hours.
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> @doyll, your comment?


Sorry, missed your post.
Looks good to me.

I don't remember what they were in other case, but wern't they similar?


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, missed your post.
> Looks good to me.
> 
> I don't remember what they were in other case, but wern't they similar?


Yes, on my open-air rig which I was running a couple of days ago, with the Hero VII and an ambient of 25C, the temps were the same on the main components of my system. Only the motherboard temp of this ASRock has been a bit higher during stress testing, but...its VRMs run cooler! So, perhaps the mobo temp is something particular to this mobo, do not recall from previous setups now, sorry...

What surprised me with this setup, just an H110 front / push, which I have tried first time ever, is that despite the fact that the majority of the people would advise against it, it runs absolutely fine!








And I've proven this with screenshots - and not by just "tweeting" a few words...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Yes, on my open-air rig which I was running a couple of days ago, with the Hero VII and an ambient of 25C, the temps were the same on the main components of my system. Only the motherboard temp of this ASRock has been a bit higher during stress testing, but...its VRMs run cooler! So, perhaps the mobo temp is something particular to this mobo, do not recall from previous setups now, sorry...
> 
> What surprised me with this setup, just an H110 front / push, which I have tried first time ever, is that despite the fact that the majority of the people would advise against it, it runs absolutely fine!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I've proven this with screenshots - and not by just "tweeting" a few words...


Just another example of how air does things that we cannot always explain. I don't know if you noticed, but most of my suggestions do not say 'this will be best' but say 'this may be good' or similar. I've had peeps get mad at me because I not give them a black or white answer to airflow and cooling questions, but there is just too much gray in between .. airflow is not black and white. Sure, in identical applications it will perform the same, but few applications are identical.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Just another example of how air does things that we cannot always explain. I don't know if you noticed, but most of my suggestions do not say 'this will be best' but say 'this may be good' or similar. I've had peeps get mad at me because I not give them a black or white answer to airflow and cooling questions, but there is just too much gray in between .. airflow is not black and white. Sure, in identical applications it will perform the same, but few applications are identical.


I never get mad at anyone on this, or other similar, forums! We, all, are just users depositing our experiences







What "bothers" me a bit is when people just type some values instead of showing them with screenshots.

Anyway, I think I have an explanation about what is going on in my system. It is simply called a "non-delidded i7-4790K"... When I place my hand inside my chassis, in front of my Corsair H110 which is blowing air inside the case, I feel the air cool! Even when I stress-test with AIDA64 and the x264 v. 2.0 the air still feels just a bit warm, but not at all hot! Only with Prime 95, Small FFTs the air feels a bit warmer. This, of course, is the result of the bad heat dissipation of the i7-4790K, if I express this correctly. The result though is that under regular and slightly heavy usage a cool to warm air stream is blown inside my chassis. This is why I do not get any excessively high temperatures in my components (GPU, SSDs, motherboard).

Next time I will open my chassis to clean it I might install my Aquaero 5 LT with 2 temp sensors, one in the front chamber the other in the rear, to get (more) accurate temperature values. I bet they will be just 2 - 3 Celsius above my ambient.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> I never get mad at anyone on this, or other similar, forums! We, all, are just users depositing our experiences
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What "bothers" me a bit is when people just type some values instead of showing them with screenshots.
> 
> Anyway, I think I have an explanation about what is going on in my system. It is simply called a "non-delidded i7-4790K"... When I place my hand inside my chassis, in front of my Corsair H110 which is blowing air inside the case, I feel the air cool! Even when I stress-test with AIDA64 and the x264 v. 2.0 the air still feels just a bit warm, but not at all hot! Only with Prime 95, Small FFTs the air feels a bit warmer. This, of course, is the result of the bad heat dissipation of the i7-4790K, if I express this correctly. The result though is that under regular and slightly heavy usage a cool to warm air stream is blown inside my chassis. This is why I do not get any excessively high temperatures in my components (GPU, SSDs, motherboard).
> 
> Next time I will open my chassis to clean it I might install my Aquaero 5 LT with 2 temp sensors, one in the front chamber the other in the rear, to get (more) accurate temperature values. I bet they will be just 2 - 3 Celsius above my ambient.


The H110 pump is only marginally flowing enough coolant to cool the waterblock. Combine this with a waterblock that is not near as good as component ones and you have two cooling imitations that no radiator can overcome .. the pump does not move enough water to keep a high heat CPU cool even if block intake water was room temperature .. combined with a block that is also marginal and either one is enough to explain why you can't get your temps any lower.

I've seen statements saying Asetek pumps flow 0.15 - 020 GPM .. a pint a minute. is pretty wimpy. By comparison a low flow spec for a component pump is about 2.5 GPM .. a staggering 14 times as much coolant. Even if this data is not accurate, the difference is still so too much to be ignored.

The Swiftech AIOs' have a pump that flows 2.9 GPM.

Another way to compare the pumps is by their power ratings. CLC pumps use similar wattage as fans do. Component pumps use 10 times as much wattage as fans do.
Quote:


> H50 pump unit
> 12 VDC
> 2.6 W
> Free Flow:
> 0.18GPM
> 10.8GPH
> 40 l/hr
> With 240 Rad:
> 0.15GPM
> 9GPH
> 30 l/hr
> 
> Thermaltake water 2.0 performer
> Rebranded Asetek 545LC
> http://www.asetek.com/desktop/cpu-coolers/545lc.html
> 12 VDC
> 3.1 W
> Free Flow:
> 0.27GPM
> 20GPH
> 60 l/hr
> With 240 Rad:
> 0.25GPM
> 20GPH
> 60 l/hr
> 
> Stock radiator.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1312762/closed-loop-wc-mod-thread-h50-pump-and-or-thermaltake-water-2-0-performer-blocks/0_20

Modified loop using XSPC RS240 radiator compared to stock CLC radiators on same CLC pumps:
Quote:


> ... Cut the loop from the 120 radiator and attach 240 radiator to the unit. ...H50 pump is SUPER weak! Like .5PSI max and .24GPM. ...Hopefully the Performer has a stronger pump... I'm first going to cut the tubes, then I'll run the loop in a bucket and at 12V to get specs on the flow rate for each pump. This will give me a good idea of the maximum volume the pump can pump. Then, after that I will attach a long length of tubing in order to determine head pressure at specific flow rates. This will give me a good indication of how much power the two pumps really have. I've already researched the Corsair H50 pump and like i said earlier, the pump is weak from what I've heard. I'm hopefully going to get a good rating on the performer 2.0.
> 
> Folding GPU3
> (810MHz-Core, 1.050V,1100MHz memory)
> Before Mod:
> Load: 48C
> After Mod with 240 Rad installed:
> Load: 42C
> 
> (890MHz-Core, 1.100V, 1200MHz memory)
> Before Mod:
> Load: 52C
> After Mod with 240 Rad installed:
> Load: 46C
> Battlefield 3 gameplay:
> (920MHz-Core, 1.150V, 2200MHz memory)
> Before Mod:
> Load: 52C
> After Mod with 240 Rad installed:
> Load: 43C
> Heaven3.0
> (920MHz-Core, 1.150V, 2200MHz memory)
> Before Mod:
> Load: 53C
> After Mod with 240 Rad installed:
> Load: 44C


http://www.overclock.net/t/1312762/closed-loop-wc-mod-thread-h50-pump-and-or-thermaltake-water-2-0-performer-blocks/0_20

Martin's Liquid Lab is no longer doing any testing, but his data and guides are very good.
https://martinsliquidlab.wordpress.com/category/pumps/


----------



## LostParticle

Thank you for your detailed and rich information, @doyll! I'm sure it made me and lots of others understand these matters better.

Personally, I am pretty happy with my results and the cooling performance of my coolers. The Corsair H110 and the Noctua NH-D15S, that I own, are more than enough for me. In recent posts, in your thread, I have posted plenty of screenshots, all of them showing a very decent Δθ between my ambient (room) temperature and my Core Max or CPU socket (max), if you prefer.

The most important screenshot though, the real-deal as they say, is that screenshot of eight hours of continuous monitoring of my system, on a regular day, in which I performed almost all the usual tasks I do. (post #504)
The result? Perfectly acceptable, very decent, fine temperatures on all my system's components! [Very] Fine by me!

So, I personally do not really need custom watercoolers. When it comes to other brands I have no reason to doubt you that there might be others with a bit or a bit more performance. From Corsair, however, I am very pleased! They have replaced my PSU (see sig_rig), they have replaced my H110, hussle-free, and they have been very helpful and reliable, all the way! I live in Europe.

As an Intel i7-4790K owner, this is the third one I am using, one thing I know and believe: IF one faces really high temperatures - I am not this one - then the FIRST step he should try is delidding!! Cooling comes later. Impressive temperature drops can be achieved only by delidding this specific chip!

I will also delidd it, one day of November, 2017. Because it is then when my Warranty expires. I will do it for the fun of it, out of curiosity and to learn. Not because I have ever faced or will ever face temperature issues. And by then, hopefully, I will own another, higher generation, processor so this i7-4790K will be my "secondary" system.

Thank you!


----------



## doyll

Thank you @LostParticle
I posted that bit not trying to change your system but to show what the shortcoming of CLC vs real water cooling. Swiftech is one of only two selling quality AIO systems that I know of.

Here is a comparison of air coolers, CLC and Switftech that ciarlatano did when he was testing and reviewing.

The H110 and others do okay, but they are at 40dB in the <40dB tests and are 1-3.5c warmer than air coolers running 33dB, 36dB and 38dB.

But the real difference is the Swiftech H240 X (same basic components as H240 X2). At 40dB it is 7c cooler than air, which is great! But when when Swiftech H240 X fans and pump were idled down to 33dB the CPU temp only went up 3c! Only 1c cooler than air coolers, but it still has all it's additional cooling available if needed with 7c better cooling at 40dB and


----------



## LostParticle

Hey @doyll

I've been wondering about the performance of my Corsair H110 with the two Noctua IPPC-3000 fans I am currently using. This AIO is mounted on the front panel of my Corsair Air 540 chassis. The fans are placed on the outside and they push air inside the chassis. In front of them I placed the plastic cover. On the cover, on the outside, I have placed the dust filter.

In your thread I have posted plenty of screenshots, with ALL the required information available.

So, this time I will just type the values.

- Noctua NH-D15S with 2 x Noctua NF-A15_1500 RPM. (open air rig!)
- Room temperature = 25 C
- Core Max = 81 C (Max Vcore: 1.424V)
- Δθ = 56 C

- Corsair H110 with 2 x Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 3000
- Corsair Air 540, no chassis fans (at all)
- Room temperature = 26.5 C
- Core Max = 82 C (Max Vcore: 1.424V)
- Δθ = 55.5 C

The settings in both occasions (tests) were exactly the same! I tested with the x264 test v2.06. TIM used: Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut.

I would expect that my H110 with these two very powerful fans would perform a bit better&#8230;

What is your opinion, please?

Thank you.

PS: screenshots available upon request.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Hey @doyll
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I've been wondering about the performance of my Corsair H110 with the two Noctua IPPC-3000 fans I am currently using. This AIO is mounted on the front panel of my Corsair Air 540 chassis. The fans are placed on the outside and they push air inside the chassis. In front of them I placed the plastic cover. On the cover, on the outside, I have placed the dust filter.
> 
> In your thread I have posted plenty of screenshots, with ALL the required information available.
> 
> So, this time I will just type the values.
> 
> - Noctua NH-D15S with 2 x Noctua NF-A15_1500 RPM. (open air rig!)
> - Room temperature = 25 C
> - Core Max = 81 C (Max Vcore: 1.424V)
> - Δθ = 56 C
> 
> - Corsair H110 with 2 x Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 3000
> - Corsair Air 540, no chassis fans (at all)
> - Room temperature = 26.5 C
> - Core Max = 82 C (Max Vcore: 1.424V)
> - Δθ = 55.5 C
> 
> The settings in both occasions (tests) were exactly the same! I tested with the x264 test v2.06. TIM used: Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut.
> 
> 
> 
> I would expect that my H110 with these two very powerful fans would perform a bit better&#8230;
> 
> What is your opinion, please?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> PS: screenshots available upon request.


Your results are what I would expect. The A14 iPPC 3000 fans are not that much more flow than stock H110 fans.

While i have not tested H110 against NH-D15, I would expect NH-D15 with A14 iPPC 3000 fans to to do better than H110 does .. assuming both are getting the same temperature air to them. Say within +/-2c of each other (from 0c difference to 4c maximum difference).

NH-D14 with 2500rpm fans (TY-143, a14 ippc 2000, a14 ippc 3000) and case airflow to match will be better than h100. Silver Arrow performs same as NH-D14, and Silver Arrow SB-E is maybe 2c better, like NH-D15. Silver Arrow SB-E Extreme or IB-E Extreme are about 8c better than H100.

This is Silver Arrow SB-E Extreme (Silver Arrow IB-E is same performance).


Here is NH-D14 with 2500rpm TY-143 fans. 1200rpm is about what stock fans do and 2400 is like CLCs sound and perform. The same kind of performance increase as Silver Arrow SB-E Extreme did in above testing giving much better cooling than H110 CLC. Just remember case airflow has to be increased to supply the almost twice as much air to CPU cooler as normal cooler fans use.


Here is @ciarlatano's test data from his testing. Keep in mind Swiftech coolers are not CLC. NH-D15 is using stock 1500rpm fan.


----------



## LostParticle

Thank you for all the info, @doyll
I appreciate it!









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Your results are what I would expect. The A14 iPPC 3000 fans are not that much more flow than stock H110 fans.
> 
> ...


Hmm, yeah, now that I am thinking about it, my results is what I should be expecting, as well... You see, my Corsair H110 is "the previous generation", it belongs to the older Corsair AIOs. So, it is normal that the Noctua NH-D15S is equal or even better than it! What I should be doing is to compare this latest-tech Noctua with the latest and the best Corsair AIO. My H110 is definitelly better than my older Noctua NH-U14S even when running in dual fan setup.

So, you're right.









On one thing I'd like to comment, only:

I copy from the Specifications:

*Noctua NF-A14 IPPC-3000 PWM*
Airflow 269,3 m³/h
Static Pressure 10,52 mm H₂O
Rotational Speed (+/- 10%) 3000 RPM

*Corsair Hydro Series™ H110 280mm*
Fan airflow: 94 CFM
Fan static pressure: 1,64 mm H₂O
Fan speed (+/- 10%): 1500 RPM

I do not know how to convert m³/h in CFM or the opposite - and I did not bother to find out - but I am sure that...well...there is some difference between them, wouldn't you say?


----------



## doyll

Yes, there is some difference, but at same rpm they are basically the same. But it would seem your H115i fans specs are low compared to what I found in a quick google.
While the A14 iPPC 3000 does indeed put out more airflow,
A14 iPPC 3000 = 269.3m3/h 158.5cfm

I assumed the stock h115 fan was a 2000rpm fan like H110 uses.
This seems to be true, and at 2000rpm the A14 iPPC 3000 has same performance as 2000.
A14 iPPC 2000 = 107.4cfm & 4.18mm H2O
H115i fan 2000 = 104.65cfm & 3.99mm H2O
H110i GT 2000 = 113.65cfm
H110i GTX2000 = 104.65cfm

By comparison the NH-D15 A15 1500 cooler fan = 68.0cfm

I find it interesting that the Thermalright TY-143 is basically the same fan. Independent testing (Cooling Techniques) shows
TY-143 fan at 2145rpm delivers 132.8cfm & 4.19mm H2O.

Their independent testing shows near identical performance to A15 2000 and 3000 fans with
A14 at 2123rpm delivers 115.5cfm & 3.94mm H2O
2500rpm delivers 137.4cfm & 5.715mm H2O.

This makes the 10.52mm H2O seem rather optimistic.


----------



## TheLAWNOOB

Hi I'm running 4 EFB1212HHF rated for 3800rpm at 60% PWM from a 555 timer at 300hz.

The fans click a lot and they still click when I use PWM from my mobo.

Would I benefit from running the PWM at higher frequencies?

For reference, Delta supports 30hz - 31khz PWM signals.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheLAWNOOB*
> 
> Hi I'm running 4 EFB1212HHF rated for 3800rpm at 60% PWM from a 555 timer at 300hz.
> 
> The fans click a lot and they still click when I use PWM from my mobo.
> 
> Would I benefit from running the PWM at higher frequencies?
> 
> For reference, Delta supports 30hz - 31khz PWM signals.


I honestly don't know, but I can see the logic in using a higher frequency shorter pulse. I have no experience in design and experimentation in PWM control, but is there a 'sweet spot' of freq / pulse that allows the best high and low speed control / power?


----------



## TheLAWNOOB

I have no idea about the sweet spot.

Most fans recommend 18khz-25khz.

Delta didn't say anything about optimal frequencies and couldn't find anything online.

I'll try different frequencies.


----------



## doyll

Sounds like a plan. Please let me know what you learn. Would be nice to figure out a way to stop the clicking.


----------



## TheLAWNOOB

Going from 300hz to 32khz made the clicking more consistent.

The loudness of the clicks are the same but 32khz made the click sounds much smoother.

It clicks even at 80% pwm.

I give up.


----------



## doyll

Maybe it's the moral highground-effect?








Sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## .theMetal

Everything is put together. I couldn't use the short cable kit, it was too short. I am going to get a 24 pin extension to match the blue 8 pin you can see at the top, that way everything will be sleeved. The fans I put in the front are a little loud, but the good news is the system never gets louder than that. The heatsink fans don't have to spin up at all to keep things cool on the card or the processor, and the processor temps dropped by a good 5 ish degrees under load and the card 2-4 degrees under the 80c throttling limit. The back of the case is very open, and heat just seems to flow out easily.

Sorry for the bad lighting in a few, it was dark by the time I got everything hooked up:






(Next to the node)


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> Everything is put together. I couldn't use the short cable kit, it was too short. I am going to get a 24 pin extension to match the blue 8 pin you can see at the top, that way everything will be sleeved. The fans I put in the front are a little loud, but the good news is the system never gets louder than that. The heatsink fans don't have to spin up at all to keep things cool on the card or the processor, and the processor temps dropped by a good 5 ish degrees under load and the card 2-4 degrees under the 80c throttling limit. The back of the case is very open, and heat just seems to flow out easily.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for the bad lighting in a few, it was dark by the time I got everything hooked up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Next to the node)


Looking good.








Does removing the front improve temps? Just curious, because if it does it's an indication the front fans are not doing a good job.
Did you try using stock PH-F200SP? The Fractal fan is weak a best, not sure of


----------



## .theMetal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Looking good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does removing the front improve temps? Just curious, because if it does it's an indication the front fans are not doing a good job.
> Did you try using stock PH-F200SP? The Fractal fan is weak a best, not sure of


Thanks! Here is some testing. I ran them all with the air conditioning on, so it's probably around 22-23c in the house I ran the 3dmark firestrike demo once per test, then just took screen's of the temps.

You can see from the tests the panel is very restrictive. Things I noticed, with the big fan and the panel installed, the phanteks heatsink fans had to spin up quite a bit. All of the other tests did not. Without the panel, the 2 140's were VERY loud, it blocks out a lot of sound. I think I'm going to try to mod it to stick out a little further so more air can get in to the fans. The big phanteks fan is very quiet, it is almost inaudible.

Here is the PH-F200SP with the front panel:


Here it is without:


Now here is the two 140's with the front panel:


and without:


----------



## fjordiales

@doyll, I transferred my build to a new case and I am wondering if you could share some of your expertise.





CPU cooler is nh-c14s with eloop b14-ps exhausting air on top vent.



I have 2x silent wings 2 as front intake. I can have them run 100% and still silent but it seems not enough.

Should I replace them with a high static pressure fan like gentle typhoon, vardar, or venturi hp?

If ty-143 had a 120mm version, that would be great.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> @doyll, I transferred my build to a new case and I am wondering if you could share some of your expertise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPU cooler is nh-c14s with eloop b14-ps exhausting air on top vent.
> 
> 
> 
> I have 2x silent wings 2 as front intake. I can have them run 100% and still silent but it seems not enough.
> 
> Should I replace them with a high static pressure fan like gentle typhoon, vardar, or venturi hp?
> 
> If ty-143 had a 120mm version, that would be great.


SLI'ing two cards that dump heat into the case is kind of a no-no. Have you tried putting in more fans for as exhaust? For example, if you have another eloop you could strap two of them to the top grill as exhausts and see if it helps at all.

EDIT: remove the two PCIE slot back covers, that'll give a bit more breathing room to your cards.

EDIT2: nevermind, I googled the case and the fans, if it's BH7 then adding another fan on top exhaust wouldn't do anything.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> @doyll, I transferred my build to a new case and I am wondering if you could share some of your expertise.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPU cooler is nh-c14s with eloop b14-ps exhausting air on top vent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have 2x silent wings 2 as front intake. I can have them run 100% and still silent but it seems not enough.
> 
> Should I replace them with a high static pressure fan like gentle typhoon, vardar, or venturi hp?
> 
> If ty-143 had a 120mm version, that would be great.


Is this CaseLabs BH7?

Are you monitoring GPU cooler intake temps? Especially the middle one.

Biggest potential problem I see is getting cool air to 2nd GPU. Can you move side GPU to last slot? This might give enough room between GPUs for decent flow to other GPU and it can pull air in the side of case to supply itself. This way a couple good front front intakes might be able to flow enough air to supply other GPU and CPU coolers.

Of the 3x 120mm fans you listed I have only use the GTs, but have heard good things about Vardar and Venturi. I think I would go with the Darkside GT 2150 PWM, not because it is any better but because it has a long history of quality performance and low noise.


----------



## fjordiales

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> SLI'ing two cards that dump heat into the case is kind of a no-no. Have you tried putting in more fans for as exhaust? For example, if you have another eloop you could strap two of them to the top grill as exhausts and see if it helps at all.
> 
> EDIT: remove the two PCIE slot back covers, that'll give a bit more breathing room to your cards.
> 
> EDIT2: nevermind, I googled the case and the fans, if it's BH7 then adding another fan on top exhaust wouldn't do anything.


I forgot to remove the pci covers, they are solid too so no breather. the 80mm silent wings are just "ghetto mounted" to help a little bit. OP of white raptor build log has 980ti SC in SLI but has different fans, gets 65 tops. But then again, i'm in AZ so it's always hot.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Is this CaseLabs BH7?
> 
> Are you monitoring GPU cooler intake temps? Especially the middle one.
> 
> Biggest potential problem I see is getting cool air to 2nd GPU. Can you move side GPU to last slot? This might give enough room between GPUs for decent flow to other GPU and it can pull air in the side of case to supply itself. This way a couple good front front intakes might be able to flow enough air to supply other GPU and CPU coolers.
> 
> Of the 3x 120mm fans you listed I have only use the GTs, but have heard good things about Vardar and Venturi. I think I would go with the Darkside GT 2150 PWM, not because it is any better but because it has a long history of quality performance and low noise.


Yes, it's the bullet bh7. I have both intake SW2 in 100% and it helped idle temps by a lot. my idle temps were 50-55 in "performance" template of the GRID+ v2 fan controller.. with 100%, idle is now 38-44. now, when i start putting load into it is where i have an issue. Dont get me wrong, SW2 are very quiet, even in 100%. But this seems like a static pressure environment since its a tight fit.

Still doing research on the fans but i'm leaning towards GT. Depending on price, availability, & color my picks are 1)GT 2)venturi 3)vardar. Also, I can't move the 2nd card, the case and mobo isn't compatible. bh7 has 7 pci slots, so wont fit. My mobo is z87, last slot is x4 and SLI don't work in x4.

Thanks to both for the suggestions and tips. I will have to do some internet "window" shopping on GTs. Last thing, GT 2150 is suggested but is GT 1850 as good?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> I forgot to remove the pci covers, they are solid too so no breather. the 80mm silent wings are just "ghetto mounted" to help a little bit. OP of white raptor build log has 980ti SC in SLI but has different fans, gets 65 tops. But then again, i'm in AZ so it's always hot.
> Yes, it's the bullet bh7. I have both intake SW2 in 100% and it helped idle temps by a lot. my idle temps were 50-55 in "performance" template of the GRID+ v2 fan controller.. with 100%, idle is now 38-44. now, when i start putting load into it is where i have an issue. Dont get me wrong, SW2 are very quiet, even in 100%. But this seems like a static pressure environment since its a tight fit.
> 
> Still doing research on the fans but i'm leaning towards GT. Depending on price, availability, & color my picks are 1)GT 2)venturi 3)vardar. Also, I can't move the 2nd card, the case and mobo isn't compatible. bh7 has 7 pci slots, so wont fit. My mobo is z87, last slot is x4 and SLI don't work in x4.
> 
> Thanks to both for the suggestions and tips. I will have to do some internet "window" shopping on GTs. Last thing, GT 2150 is suggested but is GT 1850 as good?


Both GT 1850 and GT 2150 are same up to 1850rpm.

http://thermalbench.com/2015/11/12/darkside-gentle-typhoon-1850-pwm-120mm-fan/

The FD Venturi HP-12 is good, but does not run as fast so does not put out as much air.

http://thermalbench.com/2016/04/18/fractal-design-venturi-hp-12-120mm-pwm-fan/3/

They all make basically the same noise level in dB and same airflow in CFM at same RPM. I suggest the GT 2150 because it gives you the option of using higher speed as needed to get more airflow if needed.

Many modern motherboard have case fan headers based on GPU temp, and if not most GPUs are PWM and one of the first few topics explains how to use the PWM signal from GPU to control case fan speed. Most GPUs use PMW fans, but check yours to be sure.


----------



## fjordiales

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Both GT 1850 and GT 2150 are same up to 1850rpm.
> 
> http://thermalbench.com/2015/11/12/darkside-gentle-typhoon-1850-pwm-120mm-fan/
> 
> The FD Venturi HP-12 is good, but does not run as fast so does not put out as much air.
> 
> http://thermalbench.com/2016/04/18/fractal-design-venturi-hp-12-120mm-pwm-fan/3/
> 
> They all make basically the same noise level in dB and same airflow in CFM at same RPM. I suggest the GT 2150 because it gives you the option of using higher speed as needed to get more airflow if needed.
> 
> Many modern motherboard have case fan headers based on GPU temp, and if not most GPUs are PWM and one of the first few topics explains how to use the PWM signal from GPU to control case fan speed. Most GPUs use PMW fans, but check yours to be sure.


Lol, I was just looking at that site. Also the dazmode YouTube channel. My mobo has temp probe option but I already got grid+ v2. All my fans except 1 are based on GPU temp. The eloop is plugged in mobo CPU header so I don't have to deal with fan error.

Of all the YouTube videos I watched, the 2150 has that tone that's not annoying. I should've pulled the trigger when performance PCs had them. The 2150 I can find is this...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017UX9DRA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2F13KK758WMXQ

Was hoping for all black or black/white like this...

https://modmymods.com/pre-order-modmymods-gentle-typhoon-performance-radiator-fan-2150rpm-68cfm-white-edition-d1225c12b6ap-60-w.html

Cable sleeving don't matter to me since it will be hidden when I mount them. Whit the bh7, and my cable "management", I doubt anyone will see it. Thanks for the help.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> Lol, I was just looking at that site. Also the dazmode YouTube channel. My mobo has temp probe option but I already got grid+ v2. All my fans except 1 are based on GPU temp. The eloop is plugged in mobo CPU header so I don't have to deal with fan error.
> 
> Of all the YouTube videos I watched, the 2150 has that tone that's not annoying. I should've pulled the trigger when performance PCs had them. The 2150 I can find is this...
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017UX9DRA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2F13KK758WMXQ
> 
> Was hoping for all black or black/white like this...
> 
> https://modmymods.com/pre-order-modmymods-gentle-typhoon-performance-radiator-fan-2150rpm-68cfm-white-edition-d1225c12b6ap-60-w.html
> 
> Cable sleeving don't matter to me since it will be hidden when I mount them. Whit the bh7, and my cable "management", I doubt anyone will see it. Thanks for the help.


Honestly, the white fans look nice when clean, but they collect dust, especially on their back and turn grey/tan. The grey blades hide that, and when spinning I don[t notice a fan being grey or white. Both look good.

I'm assuming you notice they are available both PWM and variable voltage models, so be sure you get the right ones for your needs.


----------



## fjordiales

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Honestly, the white fans look nice when clean, but they collect dust, especially on their back and turn grey/tan. The grey blades hide that, and when spinning I don[t notice a fan being grey or white. Both look good.
> 
> I'm assuming you notice they are available both PWM and variable voltage models, so be sure you get the right ones for your needs.


Pulled the trigger on 2150 PWM nidec grey. Went with pwm since the grid+v2 runs pwm fans in they're advertised speed. Actually, even faster.

Bq sw2 120mm are pwm and 100% is 1650rpm instead of 1500.

Nf-r8 redux pwm are 1920rpm instead of 1800.

Then my Bq sw2 80mm 3pin is at 1730rpm instead of advertised 2000. Boooo. Lol.

I'm willing to spare a bit of noise for performance. All my fans, including gpu, at 100% are not loud. Noticeable air movement but not loud especially it's on the floor next to tv stand.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> Pulled the trigger on 2150 PWM nidec grey. Went with pwm since the grid+v2 runs pwm fans in they're advertised speed. Actually, even faster.
> 
> Bq sw2 120mm are pwm and 100% is 1650rpm instead of 1500.
> 
> Nf-r8 redux pwm are 1920rpm instead of 1800.
> 
> Then my Bq sw2 80mm 3pin is at 1730rpm instead of advertised 2000. Boooo. Lol.
> 
> I'm willing to spare a bit of noise for performance. All my fans, including gpu, at 100% are not loud. Noticeable air movement but not loud especially it's on the floor next to tv stand.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Any time, mate.








Please let me know how it all works out.


----------



## Esarus

Hi Doyll (and others)!

What an awesome thread, I've almost read it all. I still have a question though; I haven't completely figured out what is wrong with my set-up. But there is something wrong! I have a Fractal Design R5 non-windowed and it's not cooling as quiet and efficient as I would like. I'm definitely doing something wrong with intake/outtake/component CFM compared to casefan CFM.

My components
Motherboard: ASrock Fatality B85
CPU: Intel i5-4690k
GPU: MSI R9 390 (cause of quite a lot of heat)
SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 500gb
No hard disk drives (CAGES REMOVED!)
RAM: 2 sticks of 8gb Corsair RAM
PSU: Be Quiet Darkrock Pro 11 650W (too much, I know)

As cooling I have a Dark Rock Pro 3 on my CPU, which has a 120mm and a 135mm Be Quiet Silentwings fan.

Furthermore I have 2 intake fans at the front, 1 outtake fan at the back. All 3 casefans are the stock Fractal Design Dynamic GP-14 White blades, 140mm.

Now the issue:

Inside the case it gets quite warm. And as a result my GPU gets quite hot during gaming at load. I have to set the fan curve quite steep to keep it running below 80 degrees celsius. So it usually hovers around 78, 79, 80. With quite a lot of sound production to keep it there. (the MSI r9 390 is safe to run around 90 degrees).

I feel like there's a few problems with the airflow. It feels like the temperatures inside the case rise too quickly and stay high. When I play graphically demanding games I set all the 3 casefans to max 1000 RPM. (They are still pretty darn quiet). During full load I feel a soft breeze exiting the back of the case at the outtake fan, not as much you would expect from a 140mm fan & the CPU fans behind it. For instance when I have 1 side panel open I can distinctly feel more airflow coming from one of the front intake fan than from the outtake fan. This is kind of weird because the intake fan is quite restricted by the front panel and the front air filter.

During load could this be to the high intake ratio? Could it be that the outtake fan is quite restricted by the large Dark Rock Pro 3 CPU cooler? There isn't a lot of space for air to move to the outtake fan. I think most of the hot air in the case is first sucked in through the CPU cooler and then exited straight out through the outtake fan. I don't know, the air flow behind the case just feels kind of "dead" or "stalled". Can't really explain it that well - English isn't my first language.

What do I have to do fix this airflow problem? I was thinking of the replacing all 3 casefans with Noctua AF-14 PWM fans. Just because they have a lot better static pressure ratings than the Fractal Design fans. Which will result in much better airflow?

Any tips and/or tricks are welcome. I could make a few pictures if needed. Thanks again for the great guides.


----------



## Riktar54

Just a thought: Have you tried removing the exhaust fan and moving it to the bottom panel (ahead of the power supply) for added air intake?

This will raise the internal case pressure as well as provide more cool outside air.

I would not be surprised if you felt the same (or more) amount of airflow coming out the back exhaust where you now have the fan mounted for exhaust.

I have a Fractal Design R5 as well and I noticed positive results from adding a fan in the bottom of the case.

And I have an r290 radeon which puts out plenty of heat.


----------



## doyll

Hi @Esarus. @Riktar54has the right idea. Most Define users having heat problems find a bottom intake helps a lot. If that does not solve it, better front intakes make a huge difference. Many of us use 3x 140mm fans like PH-F140SP, F140XP, F140MP, Thermalright TY-147A cut square (square ones to be released soon), new FD Venturi are good, etc. to name a few. Having case fans on speed control just like CPU and GPU cooler fans makes a huge difference. When components work hard and generate heat they need more airflow. Would you consider setting your GPU or CPU cooler fans at a fixed speed somewhere between idle and full speed? I wouldn't. So why should we do it with our case fans? They supply the air to our CPU & GPU, so if they are fixed speed they are either supplying too much air or too little air almost all the time. Modern CPU and GPU make lots of heat when working hard, so need case fans that work with them, not independently.







Post #48
is about Define cases.
Post # 36 is how to square T-14x series fans.
Post # 23 is how to make 120mm mounting to 140mm square fan square mounting.
Post # 4 is how to setup PWM fans with CPU and/or GPU speed control.


----------



## Esarus

Thanks for the tip guys! I will definitely try that as soon as possible. If that doesn't help I will look at new casefans and getting them all connected to the motherboard!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Esarus*
> 
> Thanks for the tip guys! I will definitely try that as soon as possible. If that doesn't help I will look at new casefans and getting them all connected to the motherboard!


Try that, get them connected to motherboard so they are speed controlled, opening case front door when gaming usually helps a lot too, then if not giving enough airflow and / or don't want the door open get better intake fans.


----------



## Dan-H

@Esarus, you are getting good advice adding the bottom fan, and I suggest following doyll's suggestion to raise the case a little when you do this. Post 15 has details.

If you have not yet removed the PCI blanks, then that is also on the list of suggestions, especially when you get more airflow coming in. it needs a way out.

And, the non-windowed R5 will take another 140mm on the side, and if this is also set to be an inlet. It will give the GPU even more cool air, and it will have no-where to go but out the back once all the PCI blanks are removed.


----------



## fjordiales

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Any time, mate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please let me know how it all works out.


Holy freaking static pressure! These GT 2150 fans running at 40%(990rpm) push same amount of air as full speed sw2. Then running these at full 2150 are just pushing air through the vents. The fans are quiet too. I'm very impressed with these gentle typhoons.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> Holy freaking static pressure! These GT 2150 fans running at 40%(990rpm) push same amount of air as full speed sw2. Then running these at full 2150 are just pushing air through the vents. The fans are quiet too. I'm very impressed with these gentle typhoons.


ROFL
Does this mean you didn't even notice the fan isn't white?


----------



## Loladinas

Ran my computer for 24H with only the intake fan running at 300RPM. Interesting.
First two spikes are two matches of LOL. I left the computer idling at the 20H mark. Regular desktop usage from 15H to 11H (browsing, watching a movie). Temperatures are lower because the window was open and air temp outside got lower at night. 10H onwards is idle, with the window closed. Last spike is a match of LOL and starting to back up my GOG library. Ambient temps (both at the case intake and inside the case) were 24C during 24H-14H time period, then dropped to about 21C, and rose to 26C after I closed the window for the night.

24 hour graph


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






2 last hours zoomed in


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






the computer in question


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







For now I'll keep running it the same, and see how it deals with some light work once I have to do something.


----------



## doyll

@Loladinas
Nice!
May I ask what the CPU & GPU loads were when temps peaked? Just curious.









I really like OHM, but sadly it does not support Skylake.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @Loladinas
> Nice!
> May I ask what the CPU & GPU loads were when temps peaked? Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really like OHM, but sadly it does not support Skylake.


Considering LOL was the most demanding thing I ran on it in those 24 hours - not much









CPU load


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







GPU load


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







It's been nearly two years since it was updated. It doesn't support Z97/DC fully either. Voltages are wrong and it's reporting some weird temperatures on mobo, that aren't there. I just used this in this instance because it does the logging and graphs all nice and neat.


----------



## GHADthc

Just started to mod the front of my TJ08-E to fit the 4x 92mm fans...gonna be a tight fit! Will post the final results here when its complete.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Just started to mod the front of my TJ08-E to fit the 4x 92mm fans...gonna be a tight fit! Will post the final results here when its complete.


Well you'd get roughly 17% more airflow by running 4xNF-A9 [email protected] vs. [email protected] It would much quieter as well. Interesting idea.
Only half static pressure though.

EDIT: Or 42% more and roughly the same static pressure by running NF-A9, still ~10dB(a) lower, if the specs are right. However I really do like the AP181 noise profile. No high pitched whine or motor noise, it's all just wind noise, at least my sample.

What 92mm fans are you planning to use?

EDIT 2: *OR* if the specs are right on their respective websites and you were set both cases to 17dB(A) you'd get 2.3 *times* more airflow and 1.8 *times* the static pressure. Looks nice on paper.

fixed the numbers, had done the math wrong first time around


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Considering LOL was the most demanding thing I ran on it in those 24 hours - not much
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPU load
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GPU load
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been nearly two years since it was updated. It doesn't support Z97/DC fully either. Voltages are wrong and it's reporting some weird temperatures on mobo, that aren't there. I just used this in this instance because it does the logging and graphs all nice and neat.


Yeah, I donated to OHM, but I guess not enough other people did, so they didn't bother updating.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Just started to mod the front of my TJ08-E to fit the 4x 92mm fans...gonna be a tight fit! Will post the final results here when its complete.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Well you'd get roughly 17% more airflow by running 4xNF-A9 [email protected] vs. [email protected] It would much quieter as well. Interesting idea.
> Only half static pressure though.
> 
> EDIT: Or 42% more and roughly the same static pressure by running NF-A9, still ~10dB(a) lower, if the specs are right. However I really do like the AP181 noise profile. No high pitched whine or motor noise, it's all just wind noise, at least my sample.
> 
> What 92mm fans are you planning to use?
> 
> EDIT 2: *OR* if the specs are right on their respective websites and you were set both cases to 17dB(A) you'd get 2.3 *times* more airflow and 1.8 *times* the static pressure. Looks nice on paper.
> 
> fixed the numbers, had done the math wrong first time around


This will be an interesting bit of testing. My guess would be a good 180mm like Silverstone FM181 is better, but really only way to find out is try both.

Only having free airflow, static pressure and free airflow db ratings to work with makes it near impossible to guess how much air will flow and what the noise level will be in application. It's only an educated guess .. one I've found to be about 60% accurate.


----------



## Loladinas

Looks like it could fit. Wouldn't need to cut up anything, just use some zipties.


----------



## fjordiales

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> ROFL
> Does this mean you didn't even notice the fan isn't white?


Well, my eyes aren't good anyway so grey and white will look the same especially with the purple light I have. The only thing I hid was the unsleeved colorful cables. But with the mounting and cable management of mine, it just blended with the rest.

I can't believe I didn't find out about gentle typhoons back then. Looks like my top fans will be ty-143 and gentle typhoon 2150. Got both options for 140 or 120mm now.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> Well, my eyes aren't good anyway so grey and white will look the same especially with the purple light I have. The only thing I hid was the unsleeved colorful cables. But with the mounting and cable management of mine, it just blended with the rest.
> 
> I can't believe I didn't find out about gentle typhoons back then. Looks like my top fans will be ty-143 and gentle typhoon 2150. Got both options for 140 or 120mm now.


Don't rule out TY-147A. They idle at 300rpm and go up to 1300rpm. I use more of them than any other 140mm fan. I do have 2 of my 3 Phanteks cases using PH-F140SP on Phanteks PWM controlled 3-pin fan hubs and changes my Enthoo Primo to TY-147Asq (new square TY-147A fan) that will be released soon. I like TY-147Asq better than PH-F140SP, partially because it's PWM. I'm getting some PH-F140MP soon. They look like they may be an exceptional fan too. Still not as good as Osprey, but a lot quieter.


----------



## fjordiales

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Don't rule out TY-147A. They idle at 300rpm and go up to 1300rpm. I use more of them than any other 140mm fan. I do have 2 of my 3 Phanteks cases using PH-F140SP on Phanteks PWM controlled 3-pin fan hubs and changes my Enthoo Primo to TY-147Asq (new square TY-147A fan) that will be released soon. I like TY-147Asq better than PH-F140SP, partially because it's PWM. I'm getting some PH-F140MP soon. They look like they may be an exceptional fan too. Still not as good as Osprey, but a lot quieter.


Ty147asq will be on my watch list.

Ty147a is my 3rd option especially noise to performance. I have those fans on my wife's pc heatsink.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Looks like it could fit. Wouldn't need to cut up anything, just use some zipties.


They do just barely fit, I got NF-A9`s, and I`m in the process of cutting out the front of the case, making my own panel (with 4 holes in the front for the fans to draw air from), painting it (or powder coating it..undecided) and rivetting it back to the case. Should be interesting!


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> They do just barely fit, I got NF-A9`s, and I`m in the process of cutting out the front of the case, making my own panel (with 4 holes in the front for the fans to draw air from), painting it (or powder coating it..undecided) and rivetting it back to the case. Should be interesting!


Wow, you're really committed to this. I would've just tested it out how it is, maybe run a test w/o the front panel too, before cutting it all up. Just use spray paint on your new panel, and regular screws to secure it. Silverstone is thoughtful like that, and uses screws instead rivets on their cases.
My current semi-fanless testing makes me think, if I could get stronger flow up front, maybe I could get rid of the other fans (that aren't running now, and are just blocking some of the airflow through heatsinks at the moment) and it'd be fine to run it that way.


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Wow, you're really committed to this. I would've just tested it out how it is, maybe run a test w/o the front panel too, before cutting it all up. Just use spray paint on your new panel, and regular screws to secure it. Silverstone is thoughtful like that, and uses screws instead rivets on their cases.
> My current semi-fanless testing makes me think, if I could get stronger flow up front, maybe I could get rid of the other fans (that aren't running now, and are just blocking some of the airflow through heatsinks at the moment) and it'd be fine to run it that way.


I`m well known by friends for getting balls deep into my modding and tinkering ha hah! The fans will be secured by normal fan scews, or the rubber thingos, but the panel I`m fabricating pretty much has to be riveted...once I get the fans running off of the swiftech 8-way PWM splitter, and running with my custom fan curve, it will be quiter than the ap181 and pushing more air (I`m hoping so anyhow)...then it will be onto chopping out the rear grille (again..hopefully much better this time, compared to my last attempt on my previous TJ08E) and designing a fan duct from the back of the last TY143 to the rear of the case, to try and reduce recycled heated air to a minimum. Its also been awhile since I updated my the pictures of my rig or details, heres a pick of it missing the front:


----------



## GHADthc

Its coming along nicely:


----------



## GHADthc

Now I just need to put the front panel on, and I`m done:  Edit: And the front panel fits! Doesn`t look too shabby if I say so myself:


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Now I just need to put the front panel on, and I`m done:


NO! NOT DONE! WE WANT DATA TO SEE COOLING DIFFERENCE!


----------



## GHADthc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> NO! NOT DONE! WE WANT DATA TO SEE COOLING DIFFERENCE!


How do you reackon I go about testing it?..(I went without using this PC due to the CPU developing a strange bug for near 6 months, so I'm a bit vague on how it used to run).

With the fan curve I have in the BIOS, the computer idles at an average of 20c (averaged between the cores) and at 100% load, it sits at 42C (averaged between the cores)...mind you, its particularly cold tonight, and the rig is very quiet as it only sits at 40% fan speed for all the fans (These temps are at stock clocks too).

I'll have to get round to some overclocking soon, I've yet to see how well this new CPU overclocks, the last one did 4.5Ghz at about 1.3v.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> How do you reackon I go about testing it?..(I went without using this PC due to the CPU developing a strange bug for near 6 months, so I'm a bit vague on how it used to run).
> 
> With the fan curve I have in the BIOS, the computer idles at an average of 20c (averaged between the cores) and at 100% load, it sits at 42C (averaged between the cores)...mind you, its particularly cold tonight, and the rig is very quiet as it only sits at 40% fan speed for all the fans (These temps are at stock clocks too).
> 
> I'll have to get round to some overclocking soon, I've yet to see how well this new CPU overclocks, the last one did 4.5Ghz at about 1.3v.


40 lashed with a wet noodle .. or as long as noodle lasts for not having data with 180mm fan in it.








I was really hoping to see just how much better (if they are) than 180mm fan 4x 90mm fans are.


----------



## doyll

@blackmesatech Best way to start is to find out what the air temp going into coolers is with setup like discribed in 2nd post.
Remove all unused PCIe back slot cover to improve exhaust vent area.
Then try the PH-F140XP fans you have and see what temps are.
Best 120mm fans would probably be 3x Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm or 2150rpm PWM connected to a PWM splitter / hub with PSU power.


----------



## blackmesatech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Remove all unused PCIe back slot cover to improve exhaust vent area.


What about PSU exhaust going back into the case with those unused PCIe slot covers removed?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blackmesatech*
> 
> What about PSU exhaust going back into the case with those unused PCIe slot covers removed?


You should first setup a thermometer so we can find out how warm the air going into coolers is. If it is only a couple degrees above room them then fans are not going to fix your problem.

With 2x 140mm or 3x 120mm front intake fans with good pressure rating the will push the air right on through the case and out the open PCIe slots. You can probably use an exhaust behind CPU cooler, but top venting should not be used. When top vents are used the flow air up and and out. This draws warm coming out of GPU cooler up around CPU cooler.


----------



## blackmesatech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> With 2x 140mm or 3x 120mm front intake fans with good pressure rating the will push the air right on through the case and out the open PCIe slots. You can probably use an exhaust behind CPU cooler, but top venting should not be used. When top vents are used the flow air up and and out. This draws warm coming out of GPU cooler up around CPU cooler.


So then with the Evolv ATX if I'm not going to use fans on the top should I seal all of the openings in the radiator/fan mount piece?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blackmesatech*
> 
> So then with the Evolv ATX if I'm not going to use fans on the top should I seal all of the openings in the radiator/fan mount piece?


My radiator/fan mounting tray has no fans and is not blocked off. I am now using 2x PH-F140SP front fans on fan hub controlled by motherboard PWM header and that is all. I use a rear exhaust for awhile but found the 2x front do the job just as well. I do not have a super high heat GPU (150w) so no issues with cooling. If I went with a high heat GPU and things were running too hot I would probably modify / add a bottom intake if need. I don't think it would be needed.


----------



## blackmesatech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> My radiator/fan mounting tray has no fans and is not blocked off. I am now using 2x PH-F140SP front fans on fan hub controlled by motherboard PWM header and that is all. I use a rear exhaust for awhile but found the 2x front do the job just as well. I do not have a super high heat GPU (150w) so no issues with cooling. If I went with a high heat GPU and things were running too hot I would probably modify / add a bottom intake if need. I don't think it would be needed.


Yeah the 3x140 fans the case comes with are PH-F140SP's and I have them on the fan hub being controlled via motherboard PWM. I just wasn't sure it was enough.

Have you seen anyone do that mod for bottom intake on the Evolv ATX? Seems like that would require quite a bit of cutting because of the PSU cover.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blackmesatech*
> 
> Yeah the 3x140 fans the case comes with are PH-F140SP's and I have them on the fan hub being controlled via motherboard PWM. I just wasn't sure it was enough.
> 
> Have you seen anyone do that mod for bottom intake on the Evolv ATX? Seems like that would require quite a bit of cutting because of the PSU cover.


The Evolv ATX PSU cover is vented so should be fine.


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Hey @doyll

Could use your air cool expertise for my upcoming HTPC build this week. Keep in mind the case isn't the greatest, but I really got stuck budget wise and couldn't afford a better case. This is what I had on hand.

Case: Recycled E-Machine EL-1352G Slim ITX.







Mobo: ASUS N3050T



Memory: Corsair DDR3 1600 8GB(4GBx2)
HDD: Transcend 64GB mSATA SSD
PSU: Dell 90W AC adapter
Optical: LG Blu-Ray combo drive SATA

Operating System: Windows 7
Software: Windows Media Center, Plex Home Theatre, Chrome

Most likely I can only get one fan positioned over the CPU attached to the side of the case. Is this my best option or do you see any other possibilities? I do think it's vented pretty well, however the tiny fan sitting on the CPU heatsink is my primary concern.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*
> 
> Hey @doyll
> 
> Could use your air cool expertise for my upcoming HTPC build this week. Keep in mind the case isn't the greatest, but I really got stuck budget wise and couldn't afford a better case. This is what I had on hand.
> 
> Case: Recycled E-Machine EL-1352G Slim ITX.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mobo: ASUS N3050T
> 
> 
> 
> Memory: Corsair DDR3 1600 8GB(4GBx2)
> HDD: Transcend 64GB mSATA SSD
> PSU: Dell 90W AC adapter
> Optical: LG Blu-Ray combo drive SATA
> 
> Operating System: Windows 7
> Software: Windows Media Center, Plex Home Theatre, Chrome
> 
> Most likely I can only get one fan positioned over the CPU attached to the side of the case. Is this my best option or do you see any other possibilities? I do think it's vented pretty well, however the tiny fan sitting on the CPU heatsink is my primary concern.


Considering the Asus N305T uses a N3050 that has a TDP of 6 watts you are not making much heat at all. You won't need much if any extra airflow. I would put it all together and see what it does. Will a 120mm fan fit? How much room is there between case and top of CPU cooler? You might be able to use the CPU fan header to power a fan mounted to case vent instead of the stock CPU fan. Probably more more air and be quieter too.


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Considering the Asus N305T uses a N3050 that has a TDP of 6 watts you are not making much heat at all. You won't need much if any extra airflow. I would put it all together and see what it does. Will a 120mm fan fit? How much room is there between case and top of CPU cooler? You might be able to use the CPU fan header to power a fan mounted to case vent instead of the stock CPU fan. Probably more more air and be quieter too.


There's the height of a full optical drive's worth. The motherboard only sits a total 25mm in height and the case is 99mm which leaves 74mm clearance. I do like the idea of using the CPU header, I think I'll have to wait and see how much noise the CPU fan makes when tortured. Also, I'll note the CPU temperatures as well.


----------



## equinoxe3d

Hello @doyll,

I changed the cooler in my HTPC from a Scythe Ninja II running semi-passive (only case exhaust near, not enough space to attach fan on it) to a downward Noctua NH-C12P

I'm using the standard fan orientation and CPU temps are very good (idle 35-40C, full load 50C) but I'm wondering if it would be worth it in my case to try the inversed fan orientation?

I'm willing mostly to help GPU temps (82C which is fine but a bit high), but bringing the CPU temps down a bit more would also be great.



CPU cooler : 140mm NF-A15 PWM running at 750-900 RPM depending on CPU temps
Exhaust fan : 92mm NF-A9 PWM running at 1400-1700 RPM depending on CPU temps
Intake at the front of the case : 120mm NF-P12 running at 900 RPM fixed

The case side panel has a 80mm-sized perforated area over the CPU (for old-school P4 ducts







), and a 6x4" one over the GPU

My concerns/questions are :

The PSU intake fan is very close and running much slower than the CPU fan, would I "starve" it if I were to pull air from it with the CPU fan?
If I inverse the CPU fan, should I change the 92MM exhaust at the back to an intake?
Thanks !


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equinoxe3d*
> 
> Hello @doyll,
> 
> I changed the cooler in my HTPC from a Scythe Ninja II running semi-passive (only case exhaust near, not enough space to attach fan on it) to a downward Noctua NH-C12P
> 
> I'm using the standard fan orientation and CPU temps are very good (idle 35-40C, full load 50C) but I'm wondering if it would be worth it in my case to try the inversed fan orientation?
> 
> I'm willing mostly to help GPU temps (82C which is fine but a bit high), but bringing the CPU temps down a bit more would also be great.
> 
> 
> 
> CPU cooler : 140mm NF-A15 PWM running at 750-900 RPM depending on CPU temps
> Exhaust fan : 92mm NF-A9 PWM running at 1400-1700 RPM depending on CPU temps
> Intake at the front of the case : 120mm NF-P12 running at 900 RPM fixed
> 
> The case side panel has a 80mm-sized perforated area over the CPU (for old-school P4 ducts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), and a 6x4" one over the GPU
> 
> My concerns/questions are :
> 
> The PSU intake fan is very close and running much slower than the CPU fan, would I "starve" it if I were to pull air from it with the CPU fan?
> If I inverse the CPU fan, should I change the 92MM exhaust at the back to an intake?
> Thanks !


I would first try inverting the cooler fan and see what temps do. Back fan should stay exhaust. I would have both back and front fans on temp to speed curve so it supplies airflow as needed by CPU and/or GPU cooler fans.

Best way to know if CPU and GPU are getting cool air is to monitor the cooler intake air temp as shown in 2nd post of thread. 4th is how to setup case fans with CPU and/or GPU speed control. Many newer motherboards have sys fan headers that will control case fans this way too.


----------



## cadger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I would first try inverting the cooler fan and see what temps do. Back fan should stay exhaust. I would have both back and front fans on temp to speed curve so it supplies airflow as needed by CPU and/or GPU cooler fans.
> 
> Best way to know if CPU and GPU are getting cool air is to monitor the cooler intake air temp as shown in 2nd post of thread. 4th is how to setup case fans with CPU and/or GPU speed control. Many newer motherboards have sys fan headers that will control case fans this way too.


Not to hijack but I have a somewhat similar question after reading the link in your signature. So I have an NCASE and the plan is to have two intakes on the side bracket, one rear exhaust. With that being said would it be better to have the fan on the CPU cooler pushing air down on it or having it pull air off the mobo and cooler? I would think the first one would be better because of the orientation of the intake fans being right over it+. I can always test when I get the parts in but figured I would ask in the time being.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> Not to hijack but I have a somewhat similar question after reading the link in your signature. So I have an NCASE and the plan is to have two intakes on the side bracket, one rear exhaust. With that being said would it be better to have the fan on the CPU cooler pushing air down on it or having it pull air off the mobo and cooler? I would think the first one would be better because of the orientation of the intake fans being right over it+. I can always test when I get the parts in but figured I would ask in the time being.


Basically the same answer as above. Try it and see which works best.


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Considering the Asus N305T uses a N3050 that has a TDP of 6 watts you are not making much heat at all. You won't need much if any extra airflow. I would put it all together and see what it does. Will a 120mm fan fit? How much room is there between case and top of CPU cooler? You might be able to use the CPU fan header to power a fan mounted to case vent instead of the stock CPU fan. Probably more more air and be quieter too.


So I got everything installed and powered on. It sits idle around 25-27C and I didn't see it pass 29C when I was doing all the windows installs.







I'll post some temps once I get Prime installed and run. Prime will decide if I have to replace the CPU fan with a 120mm screwed to the side vent. During the installs, the CPU fan stayed off as the temps were low enough. I didn't look closely at the fan profile to see when it triggers the fan to turn on.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*
> 
> So I got everything installed and powered on. It sits idle around 25-27C and I didn't see it pass 29C when I was doing all the windows installs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll post some temps once I get Prime installed and run. Prime will decide if I have to replace the CPU fan with a 120mm screwed to the side vent. During the installs, the CPU fan stayed off as the temps were low enough. I didn't look closely at the fan profile to see when it triggers the fan to turn on.


If you don't use prime except to test, don't use it at all. If you encode videos for mobile use, do some encoding. That works system as hard as most any real world use does. I sometimes run two sessions of handbrake to get 6x core 12x threads all at 100% load for testing.


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> If you don't use prime except to test, don't use it at all. If you encode videos for mobile use, do some encoding. That works system as hard as most any real world use does. I sometimes run two sessions of handbrake to get 6x core 12x threads all at 100% load for testing.


I will keep that in mind and forgo Prime. I will just run a real world scenario of streaming movies for a couple hours. Hah! I'll just play Frozen for the 1 year old. That'll keep her content and I'll get my testing done.


----------



## equinoxe3d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I would first try inverting the cooler fan and see what temps do. Back fan should stay exhaust. I would have both back and front fans on temp to speed curve so it supplies airflow as needed by CPU and/or GPU cooler fans.


So I tried inverting the CPU fan and running a benchmark (FFXIV Heavensward) before and after the change to compare. The result in my case was basically a wash: GPU and chipset temps were around 2C cooler with the inverted CPU fan, but the CPU was 2C warmer.

Since the CPU and exhaust fans are thermally controlled, the additional CPU degrees put it near the end of my fan speed slope and meant the exhaust was almost 200RPM faster in inverted, so that might have been the cause for the cooler temps.

I see the inverted fan advantage for some setups but in my case I'll leave it as it is and tweak my GPU fan speed curve







.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equinoxe3d*
> 
> So I tried inverting the CPU fan and running a benchmark (FFXIV Heavensward) before and after the change to compare. The result in my case was basically a wash: GPU and chipset temps were around 2C cooler with the inverted CPU fan, but the CPU was 2C warmer.
> 
> Since the CPU and exhaust fans are thermally controlled, the additional CPU degrees put it near the end of my fan speed slope and meant the exhaust was almost 200RPM faster in inverted, so that might have been the cause for the cooler temps.
> 
> I see the inverted fan advantage for some setups but in my case I'll leave it as it is and tweak my GPU fan speed curve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Thanks for trying and letting me know the results.









Airflow is a fickled witch, and often does not do what we think it will. It take very little to influence it's flow (even a cable in the way effects flow characteristics) making very hard to say for sure if a change will give better or worse results.


----------



## fjordiales

@doyll

http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/19/thermalright-ty-143-sq-140-mm-fan/


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fjordiales*
> 
> @doyll
> 
> http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/19/thermalright-ty-143-sq-140-mm-fan/


Thanks!

More data supporting how good these fans are.








Now all we need is retailers to buy them from and for Thermalright to make them in all black.


----------



## MicroCat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> More data supporting how good these fans are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now all we need is retailers to buy them from and for Thermalright to make them in all black.


While Noctua gets heat for off-colour earthy tones, TR goes full fluorescent *orange* and *purple*??? WTH?

At least we can be grateful they aren't distributed to every fan convenience store in town. Or any online stores in North America.

While the way too noisy 2500rpm can be tamed with PWM, the cartoon colour scheme will always be too loud.


----------



## ciarlatano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MicroCat*
> 
> While Noctua gets heat for off-colour earthy tones, TR goes full fluorescent *orange* and *purple*??? WTH?
> 
> At least we can be grateful they aren't distributed to every fan convenience store in town. Or any online stores in North America.
> 
> While the way too noisy 2500rpm can be tamed with PWM, the cartoon colour scheme will always be too loud.


Don't even get me started. The TY-143 is an incredibly frustrating product. Fantastic in every regard - great air movement, excellent sound profile, huge rpm range, quiet, well constructed.....and with a color scheme that makes it impossible to use if you care what the inside of your case looks like. What were they thinking??????


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ciarlatano*
> 
> Don't even get me started. The TY-143 is an incredibly frustrating product. Fantastic in every regard - great air movement, excellent sound profile, huge rpm range, quiet, well constructed.....and with a color scheme that makes it impossible to use if you care what the inside of your case looks like. What were they thinking??????


I think you mean "with colors not even the manufacturer can stand."

I heard a rumor they had to pay double time to manufacturing staff every time the ran a back of TY-143 fans. And that the reason the TY-140 colors were changed to TY-147 (last number is color) was because manufacturing staff rioted and threatened to burn the factory if they had to make any more of the TY-140s. Only too bad they didn't include the TY-143 in that negotiation.









A rattle-can of black Plasti Dip and a little careful masking/plugging of gap between hub mount frame before spraying on a couple of coats changes their color very nicely.


----------



## doyll

Okay @ciarlatano, I think we may have a simple solution.
I just took the sticker off of TY-143 SQ. Guess what? Right there before my eyes was a tiny little snap ring clipped onto fan shaft holding the fan in place. A couple of lead holders' using the metal tubes that lead goes into fit nicely into the snap ring, and squeezing the lead holders together a little spreads the clip and presto!, ring releases, and bearing (it's on a spring) slides itself and clip off of shaft. Now the fan slips out off of motor (shaft is in fan) and fan is in one hand with square housing in the other.

Biggest problem I'm seeing is finding something to re-install the clip.
1st, a ring piece to push bearing down on it's spring and hold it in place below clip groove in shaft.
2nd, another round hollow piece that clip can be stuck onto end of and pushed down over shaft to clip the clip into it's groove in shaft.

With a clip this small if it ever sprung away it would be lost forever.

I'll do some pics and post them up when I get a chance.

Edit:
Shaft is 3mm OD. My digital calipers are to thick to measure the clip ring on shaft.


----------



## Ziver

Doyll,

I'm searching quiet fan for exhaust. Whats your advice ? NF A14 or anything else ?

Thanks.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ziver*
> 
> Doyll,
> 
> I'm searching quiet fan for exhaust. Whats your advice ? NF A14 or anything else ?
> 
> Thanks.


What case, components and fan placement do you have? Can you supply a link to a website you can buy from? This way i can see what fans you can get.


----------



## Ziver

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What case, components and fan placement do you have? Can you supply a link to a website you can buy from? This way i can see what fans you can get.


6700K
Corsair H110
Zotac GTX1080 AMP Extreme
Corsair 900D

I tried NF A14 but i dont like their sound. I can buy from amazon.


----------



## ciarlatano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ziver*
> 
> 6700K
> Corsair H110
> Zotac GTX1080 AMP Extreme
> Corsair 900D
> 
> I tried NF A14 but i dont like their sound. I can buy from amazon.


What did you not like about the NF_A14? It is one of the quietest 140mm fans around, and most find it to be one of the smoothest sounding. The Shadow Wings 2 might be a little nicer sounding, but also won't move as much air.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

FYI. Nan's Gaming Gear is back online. However, with shipping, it's cheaper to order from Newegg or Amazon (and, after recent foul-ups by Amazon and their new delivery service, I no longer trust Amazon for anything other than e-books).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ziver*
> 
> 6700K
> Corsair H110
> Zotac GTX1080 AMP Extreme
> Corsair 900D
> 
> I tried NF A14 but i dont like their sound. I can buy from amazon.


What ciarlatano said.
What speed are you running them at? Are they setup to cycle their speed depending on component cooing needs the same as CPU and GPU cooler fans? Any fan at above 700-1100rpm (depending on fan) becomes too loud for me. I think ciarlatano has similar ears .. as many of us do.

Thanks Lady Fitzgerald. Almost all Thermalright sales are from Nan's inventory .. except for old stock like VRM heatsinks and such.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> ...Thanks Lady Fitzgerald. Almost all Thermalright sales are from Nan's inventory .. except for old stock like VRM heatsinks and such.


Amazon actually keeps Nan's stock in Amazon's inventory and Amazon does the actual pulling, packaging, and shipping. If you have Prime, that eliminates the shipping cost. Sadly, the quality of Amazon's pulling, packaging, and shipping has been horrible lately so, even though it is cheaper to order through Amazon, I simply no longer trust Amazon to not foul up the pulling, packaging, and/or delivery (except for e-books, I'm now pretty much boycotting misbegotten Amazon after the horrible service I've been getting from them).

Newegg, on the other hand, merely lists Nan's merchandise so, when ordering through Newegg, Newegg collects the money but Nan's fills the order from her stock and does the shipping. However when placing an order through Newegg, one gets charged for shipping only once whereas, when ordering directly from Nan's, one gets the same shipping charge tacked onto each item in an order. Because of that, when ordering more than one item, it is cheaper to order through Newegg instead of directly through Nan's (I set up test orders of two each of an item with both companies last night just to see if the shipping charge was applied only once for all items or applied for each item in the order). For a single item, it would be cheaper to order directly from Nan's since you would avoid Newegg's markup.


----------



## doyll

Would appear cheaper to order direct regardless

True Spirit 140 Power from
Newegg is $54.95 + $8.95 shipping
Amazon is $54.95
Nan's is $44.95 + shipping.
Last time I check Nan's shipping was less than $10.00

Le Grand Macho
Newegg is 68.99 + $7.99 shipping
Amazon is $69.99
Nans is $59.95

Problem is many products either not stocked at all or out of stock.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Would appear cheaper to order direct regardless
> 
> True Spirit 140 Power from
> Newegg is $54.95 + $8.95 shipping
> Amazon is $54.95
> Nan's is $44.95 + shipping.
> Last time I check Nan's shipping was less than $10.00
> 
> Le Grand Macho
> Newegg is 68.99 + $7.99 shipping
> Amazon is $69.99
> Nans is $59.95
> 
> Problem is many products either not stocked at all or out of stock.


Again, if you have Amazon Prime, there is no charge for shipping. Amazon's markup is less than the price for shipping with Nan's. As I said, I did the test orders for two fans (with the TR TY147-A, btw). The markup for Amazon and Newegg was only two dollars.

Newegg charged the same price for shipping-$5.99-for both one fan and for two fans. Nan's shipping price for one fan was the same as charged by Newegg, except Nan's charged the $5.99 for each of the two fans on the test order-$11.98.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Again, if you have Amazon Prime, there is no charge for shipping. Amazon's markup is less than the price for shipping with Nan's. As I said, I did the test orders for two fans (with the TR TY147-A, btw). The markup for Amazon and Newegg was only two dollars.
> 
> Newegg charged the same price for shipping-$5.99-for both one fan and for two fans. Nan's shipping price for one fan was the same as charged by Newegg, except Nan's charged the $5.99 for each of the two fans on the test order-$11.98.


I didn't price fans, only the coolers I posted above with pricing taken directly from their respective websites. I added no shipping for Amazon. The price is as posted .. which is $10.05 more than Nan's price. So like I said, unless Nan's shipping is more than $10.00 their published price plus shipping will be cheaper than Amazon's published price with 'free' shipping.

When I changed prices back in June Amazon was cheaper to USA doors. This does not appear to be true now.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

That just goes to show you that you should always shop around before ordering.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> That just goes to show you that you should always shop around before ordering.


Especially for us poor folks .. who grew up back when things were real and TVs were very big boxes with very small screens.


----------



## New green

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Kind of dark, but it's my fractal arc mini r2. Those front fans came with the case and I'm looking to upgrade them. I've used aluminum foil and masking tape on the top between the 120 fury x rad and the 240 corsair rad along with other gaps I've noticed.

Would phantek f120-mp fans for the front as well as the fury x on the rear be a good upgrade to reducing the gpu rad temp?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *New green*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of dark, but it's my fractal arc mini r2. Those front fans came with the case and I'm looking to upgrade them. I've used aluminum foil and masking tape on the top between the 120 fury x rad and the 240 corsair rad along with other gaps I've noticed.
> 
> Would phantek f120-mp fans for the front as well as the fury x on the rear be a good upgrade to reducing the gpu rad temp?


Sorry, but about all I can tell from your pic is "Radeon", "Born to be Fast" and maybe a sailboat int there .. I can see the trees out your window better than what's in your case.









Could you tell us exactly what you have and where it is placed .. or at least take a better picture.


----------



## New green

Sorry the flash stopped working. It's the fractal arc mini r2 case with the 120 case fans in the front. Fury X rad is on the back with a 6700k and 3200c16 ram plugged into a micro OC formula board. The CPU cooler is the corsair H100i v2. Also has a 512gb 950 pro and evga 850 g2. The ODD and HDD cages have been taken out as well.

Everything is stock and runs cool but I read fractal fans are not that great so I was wondering if it would make a difference replacing them before I start to OC the gpu.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *New green*
> 
> Sorry the flash stopped working. It's the fractal arc mini r2 case with the 120 case fans in the front. Fury X rad is on the back with a 6700k and 3200c16 ram plugged into a micro OC formula board. The CPU cooler is the corsair H100i v2. Also has a 512gb 950 pro and evga 850 g2. The ODD and HDD cages have been taken out as well.
> 
> Everything is stock and runs cool but I read fractal fans are not that great so I was wondering if it would make a difference replacing them before I start to OC the gpu.


Try closing the curtains, or move in close enough so pic is only inside of case. If you block the background light, the picture will likely not be so dark.








That's my photography 101 lesson for day, now back to serious stuff.
If it's running cool, why change anything?
I only have one thing to say .. if it's not broke don't try and fix it.


----------



## New green

Ya I wasn't sure if different fans would be an upgrade or not. The hottest I've seen my gpu so far was 63c. Thank you for the replies, saved me $45!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *New green*
> 
> Ya I wasn't sure if different fans would be an upgrade or not. The hottest I've seen my gpu so far was 63c. Thank you for the replies, saved me $45!


I've spend hours, days, weeks, months, years trying to get temps 1-2c cooler .. most of the time when it made absolutely no real difference.
I joined 'Cooling Anonymous' and admitted my addiction. I'm now a recovering addict and can let a system run as long as it stays below 30c at idle with 60c CPU and 65c GPU temps. I have 5 little fan buttons to prove it.


----------



## New green

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I've spend hours, days, weeks, months, years trying to get temps 1-2c cooler .. most of the time when it made absolutely no real difference.
> I joined 'Cooling Anonymous' and admitted my addiction. I'm now a recovering addict and can let a system run as long as it stays below 30c at idle with 60c CPU and 65c GPU temps. I have 5 little fan buttons to prove it.


That was me with my whole build I would overthink everything! Can't wait till I pick up a couple of hbm2 cards next year and how I'll go about cooling those.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I joined 'Cooling Anonymous' and admitted my addiction. I'm now a recovering addict


I've managed to curb those feelings for a while now, while the weather was nice, but now... It's been raining nearly every day for the past month. I'm starting to feel those cravings again, and I have nothing to curb them.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *New green*
> 
> That was me with my whole build I would overthink everything! Can't wait till I pick up a couple of hbm2 cards next year and how I'll go about cooling those.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> I've managed to curb those feelings for a while now, while the weather was nice, but now... It's been raining nearly every day for the past month. I'm starting to feel those cravings again, and I have nothing to curb them.


I could sponsor you guys in CCA if your like (CCA =Cumputer Cooling Anonymous)


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I could sponsor you guys in CCA if your like (CCA =Cumputer Cooling Anonymous)


I'm afraid it's too late for me now. I'm at it again...


----------



## jura11

Hi guys

I'm running Phanteks Emthoo Primo,which is awesome case,but I've bit of dilema with cooling...

Here is my setup:

MB: ASRock X99 Extreme6
CPU: Intel i7-5820k OC 4.4GHz at 1.223v
Cooling: Corsair H100i V2 with BeQuiet Pure Wings 2 fans plus fans as bellow(stock supplied Phanteks fans with extra BeQuiet Pure Wings 2 fitted on HDD/drive cages)
RAM: 96GB DDR4 2133MHz
GPU: EVGA Titan X(Maxwell) with EVGA Hybrid AIO with BeQuiet Pure Wings 2 fan

bellow is picture how it looks,its my case,just I replaced case and GPU cooling for EVGA Hybrid AIO



With supplied top panel or top panel with filter my temps on Corsair H100i V2 are around 4-6C hotter like when I remove top panel or top filter,with removed my temps drops under heavy or idle up to 4-6C

Ambient temp:15-16C

Idle(CPU PKG): 37C
Load(CPU PKG): 70-72C

Ambient temp: 25-30C

Idle(CPU PKG): 42-46C
Load(CPU PKG): 80-82C

GPU are in range under load at 52-60C

Fans I'm controlling though the two fan controllers Phobya which control all fans,I've used Phanteks PWM controller,but ASRock UEFI is poor brother of ASUS which I think is best and due this I'm running fan controllers

Regarding the AIO on CPU,this will be replaced as I've few issues with that AIO as has been clogged(bash with hand where are end tanks or where tubes goes to radiator will result unclogging) and I'm thinking go route of the EK Predator 360 with QDC and QDC pre filled block for GPU

I fitted extra fans on HDD/drive cages as my HDD temps has been around 5-6C hotter than without and running Phanteks fans at more RPM doesn't results in lower temps,temps are pretty much same,all HDD cages are occupied or in all cages are HDD(6 HDD)

Thanks,Jura


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jura11*
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> I'm running Phanteks Emthoo Primo,which is awesome case,but I've bit of dilema with cooling...
> 
> Here is my setup:
> 
> MB: ASRock X99 Extreme6
> CPU: Intel i7-5820k OC 4.4GHz at 1.223v
> Cooling: Corsair H100i V2 with BeQuiet Pure Wings 2 fans plus fans as bellow(stock supplied Phanteks fans with extra BeQuiet Pure Wings 2 fitted on HDD/drive cages)
> RAM: 96GB DDR4 2133MHz
> GPU: EVGA Titan X(Maxwell) with EVGA Hybrid AIO with BeQuiet Pure Wings 2 fan
> 
> bellow is picture how it looks,its my case,just I replaced case and GPU cooling for EVGA Hybrid AIO
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With supplied top panel or top panel with filter my temps on Corsair H100i V2 are around 4-6C hotter like when I remove top panel or top filter,with removed my temps drops under heavy or idle up to 4-6C
> 
> Ambient temp:15-16C
> 
> Idle(CPU PKG): 37C
> Load(CPU PKG): 70-72C
> 
> Ambient temp: 25-30C
> 
> Idle(CPU PKG): 42-46C
> Load(CPU PKG): 80-82C
> 
> GPU are in range under load at 52-60C
> 
> Fans I'm controlling though the two fan controllers Phobya which control all fans,I've used Phanteks PWM controller,but ASRock UEFI is poor brother of ASUS which I think is best and due this I'm running fan controllers
> 
> Regarding the AIO on CPU,this will be replaced as I've few issues with that AIO as has been clogged(bash with hand where are end tanks or where tubes goes to radiator will result unclogging) and I'm thinking go route of the EK Predator 360 with QDC and QDC pre filled block for GPU
> 
> I fitted extra fans on HDD/drive cages as my HDD temps has been around 5-6C hotter than without and running Phanteks fans at more RPM doesn't results in lower temps,temps are pretty much same,all HDD cages are occupied or in all cages are HDD(6 HDD)
> 
> Thanks,Jura


I suggest reading 5th post in this thread.
You say our H100 is working properly an you have be quiet! Pure Wings 2 fans on it. These are not designed to be radiator fans being even worse on the extremely dense fin CLC radiator. 11th post in this thread explains fan P/Q curve and how fans work.


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I suggest reading 5th post in this thread.
> You say our H100 is working properly an you have be quiet! Pure Wings 2 fans on it. These are not designed to be radiator fans being even worse on the extremely dense fin CLC radiator. 11th post in this thread explains fan P/Q curve and how fans work.


Thanks,I've read yours topics which are posted on page 1 there









Those BeQuiet! Pure Wings 2 fans are bit better than supplied Corsair SP120L and mainly they're lot quieter at 1200RPM which I'm mostly running them,I agree those fans are not best for radiator
I would use again TY-147A which I've used previously on Macho HR-02 rev.B,not sure if those fans would fit H100 radiator if yes then I would use them

Thanks,Jura


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jura11*
> 
> Thanks,I've read yours topics which are posted on page 1 there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those BeQuiet! Pure Wings 2 fans are bit better than supplied Corsair SP120L and mainly they're lot quieter at 1200RPM which I'm mostly running them,I agree those fans are not best for radiator
> I would use again TY-147A which I've used previously on Macho HR-02 rev.B,not sure if those fans would fit H100 radiator if yes then I would use them
> 
> Thanks,Jura


Yes, the be quiet! Pure Wings 2 are better than SP120 at lower speeds, but
Even the TY-147A is not a very good radiator fan, but only because it is low rpm. 1300rpm does not always give enough speed to cool maximum load on radiators. TY-143 is better. FYI both are not being made is square housings.








Thermalbench reviewed them both the TY-147A SQ and TY-143 SQ
http://thermalbench.com/

Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm or 2150rpm either variable voltage or PWM are probably the best 120mm radiator fans.
PH-F120MP is right there with them Much better than SP120s.
http://thermalbench.com/2015/01/07/phanteks-ph-f120mp-ph-f140mp-fans/3/

I like geggeg's noise to airflow graph. These are what we are basically dealing with in normal use .. getting the airflow we need at noise levels we are comfortable with.


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Yes, the be quiet! Pure Wings 2 are better than SP120 at lower speeds, but
> Even the TY-147A is not a very good radiator fan, but only because it is low rpm. 1300rpm does not always give enough speed to cool maximum load on radiators. TY-143 is better. FYI both are not being made is square housings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thermalbench reviewed them both the TY-147A SQ and TY-143 SQ
> http://thermalbench.com/
> 
> Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm or 2150rpm either variable voltage or PWM are probably the best 120mm radiator fans.
> PH-F120MP is right there with them Much better than SP120s.
> http://thermalbench.com/2015/01/07/phanteks-ph-f120mp-ph-f140mp-fans/3/
> 
> I like geggeg's noise to airflow graph. These are what we are basically dealing with in normal use .. getting the airflow we need at noise levels we are comfortable with.


Hi there

I thought so TY-147A is good all around performer like on CPU cooler or on the radiators,those fans I've used on previous build with good success and loved them as they're been very quiet and performed well

Regarding the Gentle Typhoons,those fans I've never owned and always wanted to test them at least how they perform and if they're really best as everyone telling me,but what I don't like is price for them,1-2 years back they're been cheaper like now

Those PH-F120MP I can get,jst hope so they're not very loud,stock Phanteks fans on Enthoo Primo are loud at full RPM

Yes agree Thermalbennch is great review site,usually I'm going there to check fans if I'm not 100% sure although I wouldn't choose PH-F120MP on first sight,I was thinking go with Noiseblockers NB eLoops or EK own fans previously

But still I will probably ditch Corsair H100i and get again air cooler(Phanteks own have good review or even Cryorig R1 which I've on other build with E5-2683v3),less hassle I suppose or I will get EK Predator as same thing happen again with my H100i,sudden high temps during the rendering,bash with bare hand on end tanks or where tubes/hoses goes and temps dropped again

Thanks,Jura


----------



## doyll

H100 were not very good even when brand new .. but none of the CLCs are. Good air coolers easily do as good a job of cooling with much less noise, much better reliability, much lower cost, etc. I'm seeing more and more people (like you) either having problems with heat or noise and changing back to air. Every one who has is amazed at how much quieter and often much cooler a good air cooler with case optimized to flow cool air to it performs.

I'm using PH-F120MP and PH-F140MP on a couple of things and like them a lot. The PH-TC14PE cooler now has PH-F140HP_II fan which is same fan as PH-F140MP in round housing with 120mm mounting holes.


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> H100 were not very good even when brand new .. but none of the CLCs are. Good air coolers easily do as good a job of cooling with much less noise, much better reliability, much lower cost, etc. I'm seeing more and more people (like you) either having problems with heat or noise and changing back to air. Every one who has is amazed at how much quieter and often much cooler a good air cooler with case optimized to flow cool air to it performs.
> 
> I'm using PH-F120MP and PH-F140MP on a couple of things and like them a lot. The PH-TC14PE cooler now has PH-F140HP_II fan which is same fan as PH-F140MP in round housing with 120mm mounting holes.


I've run on X58 with X5670 H100 which has performed great,previously I've run HR-02 Macho which has been also great CPU cooler,this one has been great,temps has been in range of Corsair

Regarding the air cooler and CLC,this cooler is around 6-8 months old,is still under warranty and I will RMA and then sell as I don't need to have same issue again later on,usually I go sleep when I render as renders are quiet long and at that time I've been working on something else when I render and saw the temps at 92C due this I will be going with air cooler

Yes agree temps with good air cooler can be good as they're on AIO and depends on cooler they can be quieter although Intel stock one is just poor example how to don't make air cooler

Thanks again for yours help and input there









Thanks,Jura


----------



## EAl3x

Hello guys! My name is Alex and I have the following components:
CPU: Intel Core I7 4790k
Motherboard: ASRock Z97 Extreme6
CPU Cooler: Phanteks TC14PE
GPU: Gibabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming
PSU: Seasonic S12II 620 W 80+ Bronze
Case: Phanteks Enthoo Pro Window
Case Fans: 1x 200 mm front intake; 1x 140 mm top intake; 1x 120 mm intake mounted on the HDD cage; 1x 140 mm rear exhaust;


I have the following questions, maybe you could help me with them:
1. At 4.6 multiplier with 1.21 V i get 80 degrees in x264 Stability Test or Prime95 26.6. Is this normal for a massive cooler like this? You guys who own a NH-D15 or NH-D14 do you get simillar results in terms of temperature?
2. Do you think is something wrong with the CPU Cooler?


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> Hello guys! My name is Alex and I have the following components:
> CPU: Intel Core I7 4790k
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Motherboard: ASRock Z97 Extreme6
> CPU Cooler: Phanteks TC14PE
> GPU: Gibabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming
> PSU: Seasonic S12II 620 W 80+ Bronze
> Case: Phanteks Enthoo Pro Window
> Case Fans: 1x 200 mm front intake; 1x 140 mm top intake; 1x 120 mm intake mounted on the HDD cage; 1x 140 mm rear exhaust;
> 
> 
> 
> I have the following questions, maybe you could help me with them:
> 1. At 4.6 multiplier with 1.21 V i get 80 degrees in x264 Stability Test or Prime95 26.6. Is this normal for a massive cooler like this? You guys who own a NH-D15 or NH-D14 do you get simillar results in terms of temperature?
> 2. Do you think is something wrong with the CPU Cooler?


That feels a little hot, but not totally out of bounds.

I don't use prime95 for temp testing. x264, long runs my temps settled in around 67C to 71C Max across the cores.

My 4790K is at 4.7 1.275 VID / 1.296 Vcore

On yours, is 1.21V vCore or VID? Could it be VID is set and the board has a slight offset? I'm not familiar with ASRock boards. On my Gigabyte Z97X, VID is set to 1.275, but the voltage delivered is 1.296.

have you set any other voltages? Turned off Adaptive?

I've spent a while reading and re-reading this thread http://www.overclock.net/t/1490324/the-intel-devils-canyon-owners-club/0_30 but I'm still not 100% sure I can match all the numbers I read in HWiNFO64 to the BIOS settings.

I think I'd first try re-seating the cooler, and then I'd walk through the overclock again step by step.

edit: One more question: are your CPU temps immediately at 80C? and do they stay there? Or do they climb over time?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> Hello guys! My name is Alex and I have the following components:
> CPU: Intel Core I7 4790k
> Motherboard: ASRock Z97 Extreme6
> CPU Cooler: Phanteks TC14PE
> GPU: Gibabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming
> PSU: Seasonic S12II 620 W 80+ Bronze
> Case: Phanteks Enthoo Pro Window
> Case Fans: 1x 200 mm front intake; 1x 140 mm top intake; 1x 120 mm intake mounted on the HDD cage; 1x 140 mm rear exhaust;
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have the following questions, maybe you could help me with them:
> 1. At 4.6 multiplier with 1.21 V i get 80 degrees in x264 Stability Test or Prime95 26.6. Is this normal for a massive cooler like this? You guys who own a NH-D15 or NH-D14 do you get simillar results in terms of temperature?
> 2. Do you think is something wrong with the CPU Cooler?


1st thing to do is replace the 200mm front intake with 2x PH-F140SDP fans. Everyone I know with Luxe and Pro have done this and got much better case airflow and temps. Have you read the 5th post in this thread? It's about case airflow, how to monitor cooler intake air temperature and why it should be done.


----------



## EAl3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> That feels a little hot, but not totally out of bounds.
> 
> I don't use prime95 for temp testing. x264, long runs my temps settled in around 67C to 71C Max across the cores.
> 
> My 4790K is at 4.7 1.275 VID / 1.296 Vcore
> 
> On yours, is 1.21V vCore or VID? Could it be VID is set and the board has a slight offset? I'm not familiar with ASRock boards. On my Gigabyte Z97X, VID is set to 1.275, but the voltage delivered is 1.296.
> 
> have you set any other voltages? Turned off Adaptive?
> 
> I've spent a while reading and re-reading this thread http://www.overclock.net/t/1490324/the-intel-devils-canyon-owners-club/0_30 but I'm still not 100% sure I can match all the numbers I read in HWiNFO64 to the BIOS settings.
> 
> I think I'd first try re-seating the cooler, and then I'd walk through the overclock again step by step.
> 
> edit: One more question: are your CPU temps immediately at 80C? and do they stay there? Or do they climb over time?


Hello Dan. They max at 80 but they hover around 75-77 degrees.

O my motherboard I have only the Vcore Voltage setting, I never seen the VID setting in the BIOS.
My voltage is on adaptive but it maxes out at 1.21 Volts. The default Vcore set by the motherboard is 1.26 and I offset it by -0.05 V.

I reinstalled the cooler three times, cleaned the thermal paste with isIsopropyl alcohol, doing the pee method of applying the thermal paste.


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> Hello guys! My name is Alex and I have the following components:
> CPU: Intel Core I7 4790k
> Motherboard: ASRock Z97 Extreme6
> CPU Cooler: Phanteks TC14PE
> GPU: Gibabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming
> PSU: Seasonic S12II 620 W 80+ Bronze
> Case: Phanteks Enthoo Pro Window
> Case Fans: 1x 200 mm front intake; 1x 140 mm top intake; 1x 120 mm intake mounted on the HDD cage; 1x 140 mm rear exhaust;
> 
> 
> I have the following questions, maybe you could help me with them:
> 1. At 4.6 multiplier with 1.21 V i get 80 degrees in x264 Stability Test or Prime95 26.6. Is this normal for a massive cooler like this? You guys who own a NH-D15 or NH-D14 do you get simillar results in terms of temperature?
> 2. Do you think is something wrong with the CPU Cooler?


Hi there

Yours temps are OK in my view,as Doyll said,you can lower temps by optimizing airflow in yours case

What temps are you have when you game or what temps you have during Asus RealBench? I would suspect during Realbench yours temps will be bit lower,have run i7-4790k and have run 4.6GHz at 1.26v vCore with Input voltage at 1.79v and 43x multi for Cache and my temps has been pretty much like yours in those benches,but in RealBench my temps never been so high

I would use Realbench for OC testing,is better and in my case is proven,sometimes I run Prime where is stable for several hours,but one render in 3DS MAX will end with BSOD,due this I rather use as above RealBench

Yours cooler works there,my temps with H100i V2 has been very similar than yours in Prime or X264,I would try bench during the night when outside temps can be lower as try bench during scorching heat,but still you can lower temps by optimizing the case airflow









Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> Hello Dan. They max at 80 but they hover around 75-77 degrees.
> 
> O my motherboard I have only the Vcore Voltage setting, I never seen the VID setting in the BIOS.
> My voltage is on adaptive but it maxes out at 1.21 Volts. The default Vcore set by the motherboard is 1.26 and I offset it by -0.05 V.
> 
> I reinstalled the cooler three times, cleaned the thermal paste with isIsopropyl alcohol, doing the pee method of applying the thermal paste.


Edit2: I just saw your post on the Devils canyon thread so I'll remove my questions and keep this focused on the air cooling.


----------



## EAl3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jura11*
> 
> Hi there
> 
> Yours temps are OK in my view,as Doyll said,you can lower temps by optimizing airflow in yours case
> 
> What temps are you have when you game or what temps you have during Asus RealBench? I would suspect during Realbench yours temps will be bit lower,have run i7-4790k and have run 4.6GHz at 1.26v vCore with Input voltage at 1.79v and 43x multi for Cache and my temps has been pretty much like yours in those benches,but in RealBench my temps never been so high
> 
> I would use Realbench for OC testing,is better and in my case is proven,sometimes I run Prime where is stable for several hours,but one render in 3DS MAX will end with BSOD,due this I rather use as above RealBench
> 
> Yours cooler works there,my temps with H100i V2 has been very similar than yours in Prime or X264,I would try bench during the night when outside temps can be lower as try bench during scorching heat,but still you can lower temps by optimizing the case airflow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Thanks,Jura


I've come to the conclusion that I expected too much from this cooler. Yes, you do have temps similar to mine but you are running 1.26 V, that 0.05 more than me. If I would run your setting I think I would reach 90 in the x264 Stability Test. I render in 3ds MAX too and the temps max out at 72 degrees, and they hover around 69-70 so that's good. I think I'll leave it at that.

I have a question. What is the effect of the input voltage on the temperatures of the performance? Because I run it at 1.9 V and you run it at 1.79.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that I expected too much from this cooler. Yes, you do have temps similar to mine but you are running 1.26 V, that 0.05 more than me. If I would run your setting I think I would reach 90 in the x264 Stability Test. I render in 3ds MAX too and the temps max out at 72 degrees, and they hover around 69-70 so that's good. I think I'll leave it at that.
> 
> I have a question. What is the effect of the input voltage on the temperatures of the performance? Because I run it at 1.9 V and you run it at 1.79.


Replace your 200mm front fan with the two fans doyll suggested you









Higher CPU Input voltage always increases Core max temp (i7-4790K).


----------



## EAl3x

Thank you for the responses guys, you've been great.


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that I expected too much from this cooler. Yes, you do have temps similar to mine but you are running 1.26 V, that 0.05 more than me. If I would run your setting I think I would reach 90 in the x264 Stability Test. I render in 3ds MAX too and the temps max out at 72 degrees, and they hover around 69-70 so that's good. I think I'll leave it at that.
> 
> I have a question. What is the effect of the input voltage on the temperatures of the performance? Because I run it at 1.9 V and you run it at 1.79.


Hi there

With good airlfow you will lower temps too,as I said have run i7-4790k with H100i V2 and my temps has been same or similar to yours,have tried 1.21v and temps has been slightly lower 2-3C under load

I render mostly in 3DS MAX and my temps has been in 68-70C under load and really I wouldn't be worried regarding temps,yes can be lower,did you tried Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut thermal paste?

Input voltage,it will lower temps,this has been my case there,second option is lower cache voltage what I've done and with that I've gained lower temps

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> Thank you for the responses guys, you've been great.


Forgot to ask you,those temps are you see on PKG(package) or on cores ?

I always looking at PKG which is usually always higher than core temp

I wouldn't be worried with those temps there,unless you will see something above 85°C and above then I would be worried

Thanks,Jura


----------



## Loladinas

Didn't want to make a thread (yet) for a short question, and most of you guys hang out in this thread anyway...

Do you think something like this might work, or are the fans at the top moot? Anyone got any experience with something similar? Mind you it's still not done and parts used are just placeholders to make sure there's enough room inside.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> Thank you for the responses guys, you've been great.


What is your room temp?
More importantly, what is the temperature of air going into PH-TC14PE before and during your tests? We have to know the cooler intake air temp to know how well the cooler is performing. This is the one and the only air temperature that is important.

Cooler intake and room air temperatures are not the same. Think of your computer working hard in a room as your kitchen when you are cooking a big dinner in your home. Is your kitchen the same temperature as your family room or as your bedroom? Sure, it's probably about the same when no cooking is being done, but when you start cooking the added heat from stove, oven, etc increase the temperature of the kitchen making it warmer than other room in the house.

Component intake temps in a working computer are typically 10-20+c warmer than the room. The better the case flows cool air to component is dependent not only on how much air the case is flowing but how it is flowing. The case must flow air along paths / channels that keep component heated exhaust from mixing into the cool intake air and heating it up. If iti is not the air going to components is being pre-heated and every degree warmer this airflow is basically a degree warmer the component is.

If the air going into cooler is 32c with the CPU is 72c in a 22c room and we lower the cooler intake air temp to 25c, the CPU will be 65c. If cooler intkae is 38c in a 22c room with 72c CPU temp and we lower it to 25c the CPU temp will be about 59c!

I know this is likely the first time you have heard this, but it is what is happening inside of your case. Many reviewers think testing in a case using room ambient is 'real world use', but it is only 'real world' for people with the same exact system in the same exact placement. Their testing is not comparing cooler performance, but instead comparing how their system performs with different coolers in their room. To know how the cooler are performing requires the use of cooler intake air temp instead of room ambient or case intake air temp.

The stock Enthoo Pro PH-F200SP fan gives terrible airflow. A single PH-F140SP does better, and 2x PH-F140SP intakes will likely lower your CPU temp by about 10c


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Didn't want to make a thread (yet) for a short question, and most of you guys hang out in this thread anyway...
> 
> Do you think something like this might work, or are the fans at the top moot? Anyone got any experience with something similar? Mind you it's still not done and parts used are just placeholders to make sure there's enough room inside.


I'm not sure what you are doing, but likely they are redundant (or moot







)
"Airflow" is "air displacement", so if the bottom intake fans are up to the task, the top fans are not needed. Maybe put one in middle of CPU cooler with divider between GPU and CPU would move as much air and make overall noise levels lower.

Is the fan in black box on the side the PSU? If it is, I would move PSU up so it's exhaust vent is in top of case. Then make a shroud below from bottom intake on that side to GPU intake.

I'm assuming these are TY-147A SQ or TY-143 SQ fans.









Case is about 320x320x200mm (assuming mobo is ATX)? 165mm CPU clearance requires motherboard tray to be 181mm from side cover .. leaving 19mm behide motherboard tray. Might want a little more for cable management and SSD / HDD. Obviously case will have at least 35mm feet to allow airflow to bottom intake fans.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I'm not sure what you are doing, but likely they are redundant (or moot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> "Airflow" is "air displacement", so if the bottom intake fans are up to the task, the top fans are not needed. Maybe put one in middle of CPU cooler with divider between GPU and CPU would move as much air and make overall noise levels lower.
> 
> Is the fan in black box on the side the PSU? If it is, I would move PSU up so it's exhaust vent is in top of case. Then make a shroud below from bottom intake on that side to GPU intake.
> 
> I'm assuming these are TY-147A SQ or TY-143 SQ fans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Case is about 320x320x200mm (assuming mobo is ATX)? 165mm CPU clearance requires motherboard tray to be 181mm from side cover .. leaving 19mm behide motherboard tray. Might want a little more for cable management and SSD / HDD. Obviously case will have at least 35mm feet to allow airflow to bottom intake fans.


The idea was to boost the pressure a bit, as its pitifully low on any fan running at 300RPM.
It's 28x28x18, not including the thickness of outer panels, and the cable routing shouldn't be an issue. There should only be two cables from PSU to motherboard, as I was thinking of only using a single m2 drive in the system and a GPU powered from the slot only.
There should be 8mm (6mm standoff + 2mm thick crossbars/mounting tray) of clearance behind the motherboard, just to make sure that nothing touches the side panel and that's it. 2 + 6 + 1.6 + 7 + 160 = 176,6. Should fit and leave me a couple millimeters wiggle room.
Can't move the PSU up - there's no room up top. Fans span the entire case length. PSU is likely going to spend most of it's time with its fan off, so I thought I could do the whole 'two birds one stone' thing with the fans up top.
The NH-D14 is only used for scaling reasons(same as GPU, just making sure there's enough room for a double slot card) as there was already a model of it made. I plan to put something a bit more suited for passive use - say Le Grand Macho (supposedly only 159mm tall as well).

It still needs a bit of work to make it clearer what I'm thinking of doing


----------



## EAl3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What is your room temp?
> More importantly, what is the temperature of air going into PH-TC14PE before and during your tests? We have to know the cooler intake air temp to know how well the cooler is performing. This is the one and the only air temperature that is important.
> 
> Cooler intake and room air temperatures are not the same. Think of your computer working hard in a room as your kitchen when you are cooking a big dinner in your home. Is your kitchen the same temperature as your family room or as your bedroom? Sure, it's probably about the same when no cooking is being done, but when you start cooking the added heat from stove, oven, etc increase the temperature of the kitchen making it warmer than other room in the house.
> 
> Component intake temps in a working computer are typically 10-20+c warmer than the room. The better the case flows cool air to component is dependent not only on how much air the case is flowing but how it is flowing. The case must flow air along paths / channels that keep component heated exhaust from mixing into the cool intake air and heating it up. If iti is not the air going to components is being pre-heated and every degree warmer this airflow is basically a degree warmer the component is.
> 
> If the air going into cooler is 32c with the CPU is 72c in a 22c room and we lower the cooler intake air temp to 25c, the CPU will be 65c. If cooler intkae is 38c in a 22c room with 72c CPU temp and we lower it to 25c the CPU temp will be about 59c!
> 
> I know this is likely the first time you have heard this, but it is what is happening inside of your case. Many reviewers think testing in a case using room ambient is 'real world use', but it is only 'real world' for people with the same exact system in the same exact placement. Their testing is not comparing cooler performance, but instead comparing how their system performs with different coolers in their room. To know how the cooler are performing requires the use of cooler intake air temp instead of room ambient or case intake air temp.
> 
> The stock Enthoo Pro PH-F200SP fan gives terrible airflow. A single PH-F140SP does better, and 2x PH-F140SP intakes will likely lower your CPU temp by about 10c


My room temperature is 26 C. I will replace the front fan with two PH-F140SPs and maybe grab some custom sleeved cables.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EAl3x*
> 
> My room temperature is 26 C. I will replace the front fan with two PH-F140SPs and maybe grab some custom sleeved cables.


26c is on the warm side .. by 3-4c.









2x 140mm intakes will make a significant difference, probably quite a big difference.









But the best way is to know what the airflow temps are into coolers so we can compare them to room ambient. Please look at 2nd post in this thread and 'grab' a low cost digital indoor/outdoor wire sensor thermometer and set it up like in 2nd post. Thermometer is cheaper than a single custom sleeved cable and while it doesn't look as nice is way more functional because then we will know just how warm your cooler intake air actually is








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> The idea was to boost the pressure a bit, as its pitifully low on any fan running at 300RPM.
> It's 28x28x18, not including the thickness of outer panels, and the cable routing shouldn't be an issue. There should only be two cables from PSU to motherboard, as I was thinking of only using a single m2 drive in the system and a GPU powered from the slot only.
> There should be 8mm (6mm standoff + 2mm thick crossbars/mounting tray) of clearance behind the motherboard, just to make sure that nothing touches the side panel and that's it. 2 + 6 + 1.6 + 7 + 160 = 176,6. Should fit and leave me a couple millimeters wiggle room.
> Can't move the PSU up - there's no room up top. Fans span the entire case length. PSU is likely going to spend most of it's time with its fan off, so I thought I could do the whole 'two birds one stone' thing with the fans up top.
> The NH-D14 is only used for scaling reasons(same as GPU, just making sure there's enough room for a double slot card) as there was already a model of it made. I plan to put something a bit more suited for passive use - say Le Grand Macho (supposedly only 159mm tall as well).
> 
> It still needs a bit of work to make it clearer what I'm thinking of doing


It's a good starting rendition.
Having fans away from vent openings generally means lower sound levels, so I would probably use fan on cooler instead of cae exhaust. Bottom intakes are 'baffled' but whatever case sets on, so as long as it's not a reflective surface it lowers fan sound level. Just brain-storming here, but it is possible to use only a fan on cooler with no intake or exhaust, especially if CPU side of case is it's own airflow duct. This would probably lower audible sound even if fan was spinning a little faster.







Similar principle could be applied to GPU side of case with fan mounted about half way between bottom and GPU.

I'm assuming you will have filters on the intakes, so having some room between them and bottom grill will likely lower sound levels as well.

Keep in mind while the Le Grand Macho is 159mm tall, it is 150mm wide so 70mm center of CPU toward PCIe socket and 80mm toward side of case.

Obviously the case has to be bigger than 280 or fans will not fit side by side. I've done lots of fabrication in R&D work. Always leave 5-10mm clearance if possible. 140mm fans are often 141-142mm









Like I said, this is brainstorming ideas, not that all are the only or best way of doing it.


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> It's a good starting rendition.
> Having fans away from vent openings generally means lower sound levels, so I would probably use fan on cooler instead of cae exhaust. Bottom intakes are 'baffled' but whatever case sets on, so as long as it's not a reflective surface it lowers fan sound level. Just brain-storming here, but it is possible to use only a fan on cooler with no intake or exhaust, especially if CPU side of case is it's own airflow duct. This would probably lower audible sound even if fan was spinning a little faster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similar principle could be applied to GPU side of case with fan mounted about half way between bottom and GPU.
> 
> I'm assuming you will have filters on the intakes, so having some room between them and bottom grill will likely lower sound levels as well.
> 
> Keep in mind while the Le Grand Macho is 159mm tall, it is 150mm wide so 70mm center of CPU toward PCIe socket and 80mm toward side of case.
> 
> Obviously the case has to be bigger than 280 or fans will not fit side by side. I've done lots of fabrication in R&D work. Always leave 5-10mm clearance if possible. 140mm fans are often 141-142mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, this is brainstorming ideas, not that all are the only or best way of doing it.


Yeah, had a bit of brainfart, it's 30x30x18. There's 20mm clearance between the edge of the motherboard and the front panel. I don't plan on using any filters at all, only a mesh on top of the case (so I don't accidentally jam something into the fans), that should be about 8mm away from the fan blades.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Yeah, had a bit of brainfart, it's 30x30x18. There's 20mm clearance between the edge of the motherboard and the front panel. I don't plan on using any filters at all, only a mesh on top of the case (so I don't accidentally jam something into the fans), that should be about 8mm away from the fan blades.


Sounds like you got it pretty well figured out.








I know all my comments may sound like nit-picking, but I'm only trying to help you catch any possible design problems before you build. Even on 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10 generation there always seem to be little things we would find that could be done to make product better or easier to build and use.


----------



## Loladinas

Nah, I'm far from having it all figured out, but I'm not rushing into it. Probably going to spend a couple more months adding bits to it, on and off. For example, your comment about sound from bottom fans bouncing back off a reflective surface (a hardwood desk in my case) made me think about building a baffle box (as per DIYperks custom case) with soft material on the bottom, instead of using simple rubber feet. I was planning on adding about 5 centimeters of clearance for the bottom intake, but I don't want the case to get too big.

And I'm still not sure about exact fan placement (maybe I could move them further to one side, leaving more room to run cables/connectors on the other side), how rigid the motherboard tray would be, how tight can I bend those 20x20x2 aluminum 90o bars, and so on...


----------



## doyll

When I was doing fabrication most of the joints were MIG or TIG welded, but on something like this I would consider using one of the modern glues now available. Maybe find some 3 sided corner pieces and glue the aluminum angle onto them. I don't know of any for inside use on extruded aluminum angle, but the idea is used a lot on outside corners of old steamer trunks and commercial amplifier and speaker cases like used for touring bands.
Something like this


These corners could have screws from cover panels going into them for even more strength.


----------



## Loladinas

Yeah, but that way I'd be losing internal volume that way, thus having to make the case larger. The way I have it in my head right now, it is a very simple design, using only 16 screws for the frame itself. I think it should be sturdy enough, because 8 of those screws will also be attached to solid front and back panels, and sides are a single solid piece, with only one cut (if I can bend it tight enough, that is). I certainly don't plan on kicking it around. I'll post a close up of a joint once I get back home tonight.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Weird as it sounds, reading the last few posts inspired a solution to a sticky problem on the case I'm building, even though the problem and solution aren't even remotely. This is why we post build logs, etc.: to inspire and educate others and to seek help, not just to show off (although there is nothing wrong with the latter). Thanks, guys!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Weird as it sounds, reading the last few posts inspired a solution to a sticky problem on the case I'm building, even though the problem and solution aren't even remotely. This is why we post build logs, etc.: to inspire and educate others and to seek help, not just to show off (although there is nothing wrong with the latter). Thanks, guys!


Come on! You can't bait us like this and not tell us what you are doing.
I do it to show off.


----------



## Loladinas

Glad something good came of this









Anyway, like I said before, here's the joint. The holes are numbered. Hole "3" is 6mm on the outside, 4mm on the inside, it's for attaching the fans to the frame using rubber screws. Hole "1" is 3mm and it's going to connect the two frame pieces together and also screw into the front panel. Hole "2" is the same as "1", except it doesn't connect to the panel.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Weird as it sounds, reading the last few posts inspired a solution to a sticky problem on the case I'm building, even though the problem and solution aren't even remotely. This is why we post build logs, etc.: to inspire and educate others and to seek help, not just to show off (although there is nothing wrong with the latter). Thanks, guys!
> 
> 
> 
> Come on! You can't bait us like this and not tell us what you are doing.
Click to expand...

Actually, I can.







You'll just have to follow my build log to see what it is since I haven't got that far yet and it's a bit difficult to explain.
Quote:


> I do it to show off.


Heck, we all do.







I was just pointing out additional, more altruistic reasons.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Glad something good came of this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, like I said before, here's the joint. The holes are numbered. Hole "3" is 6mm on the outside, 4mm on the inside, it's for attaching the fans to the frame using rubber screws. Hole "1" is 3mm and it's going to connect the two frame pieces together and also screw into the front panel. Hole "2" is the same as "1", except it doesn't connect to the panel.


That works quite well.







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Actually, I can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'll just have to follow my build log to see what it is since I haven't got that far yet and it's a bit difficult to explain.
> Heck, we all do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was just pointing out additional, more altruistic reasons.


Ahh! A silver beaked devil she is.


----------



## doyll

I was asked:
Quote:


> I'm looking for new fan for my Mugen 2 rev. B and someone on reddit advised me to contact you.
> I'm currently thinking about few fans, but can't decide which one should I pick:
> - BeQuiet Silent Wings 3 120 PWM
> - Thermalright TY 127 120 PWM
> - Noctua NF-P12-PWM
> - Enermax T.B.Silence PWM ( UCTB12P )
> 
> Silent Wings 3 should be quietest, but I'm concerned about it's performance. As far as I checked Noctua is louder, but have much better performance.
> It's hard to find anything about TY 127 and UCTB12P looks like something in between SW3 and NF-P12.
> I want something at least as "powerful" as stock Slip Stream (preferably better) while quieter.
> 
> What would you suggest?


Considering the Mugen 2 rev.B is fairly common cooler I'm posting answer here:
I don't know what your case clearance is like or how your fan clips work, but if clips would work and 140mm fan would fit and I probalby use TY-147A. It's 140mm instead of 120 so needs more clearance, but your Mugen 2 finpack has a 130x107mm face area. TY-147A is 152x140 outside measurements with 120mm fan mounting holes.

Possible problems:
Fan frame is not square cornered so not sure if fan clips will reach mounting holes.
Could modify clips or use zip-ties.
Fan 140mm height may not fit between RAM and case.

Advantages are:
Increased airflow area in corners of finpack
Increased airflow area over heatpipes in these corners
Increased airflow below finpack to improve motherboard component cooling (if RAM is not too tall)
One of the very best airflow to noise ratio fans there is.


----------



## kubas246

@doyll
Unfortunately my ram is pretty high (Corsair Vengeance Pro Red) so I had to mount my current 120mm fan a little higher than normal. Currently with 120mm fan I have ~3mm from fan to case (CM 690 II Advanced), there is just no place for 140mm fan. Could you recommend some 120mm fan?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kubas246*
> 
> @doyll
> Unfortunately my ram is pretty high (Corsair Vengeance Pro Red) so I had to mount my current 120mm fan a little higher than normal. Currently with 120mm fan I have ~3mm from fan to case (CM 690 II Advanced), there is just no place for 140mm fan. Could you recommend some 120mm fan?


be quiet! Shadow Wings 3 appear to be very good.

I've used TY-127 on Macho SBM and liked it.

Gentle Typhoon 1850 or 2150 rpm PWM are arguably the best.
Phaneks PH-F120MP is quite good.

I have used GT and F120MP and find them very good. I have not used Shadow Wings 3, but geggeg tested it recently and likes it. I trust his judgement.


----------



## .theMetal

Hey @doyll quick question, I thought I would put it here for general knowledge.

I'm needing a second Phanteks PMW adapter, the one that used to come with the tc14pe so I can control my non pmw fans with the pmw header on my motherboard. I contacted their support and they said they don't make it any more, and pointed me at their splitter hub, which I don't really care to use for my small case. Is there some where where you get them or some other brand of them you use? What would you recommend me for this situation?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> Hey @doyll quick question, I thought I would put it here for general knowledge.
> 
> I'm needing a second Phanteks PMW adapter, the one that used to come with the tc14pe so I can control my non pmw fans with the pmw header on my motherboard. I contacted their support and they said they don't make it any more, and pointed me at their splitter hub, which I don't really care to use for my small case. Is there some where where you get them or some other brand of them you use? What would you recommend me for this situation?


:
I don't know of anything like the original Phanteks PWM to variable voltage adapter, but I know someone who can likely make you one. He normally makes and sells a similar unit setup for 2-4 fans. Advantage of his is they are adjustable to set speed curve so fans match other fans in system (blue pot on end). He is here in UK, but I'm pretty sure he can make what you need and mail it to you .. probably one basically the same as original Phanteks adapter.

Board dimensions 75 x 22 x 14mm.

I might be able to find one hidden in one of my many treasure chests here .. somewhere. Key word are 'hidden' and 'finding'.


----------



## .theMetal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I don't know of anything like the original Phanteks PWM to variable voltage adapter, but I know someone who can likely make you one. He normally makes and sells a similar unit setup for 2-4 fans. Advantage of his is they are adjustable to set speed curve so fans match other fans in system (blue pot on end). He is here in UK, but I'm pretty sure he can make what you need and mail it to you .. probably one basically the same as original Phanteks adapter.
> 
> Board dimensions 75 x 22 x 14mm.
> 
> I might be able to find one hidden in one of my many treasure chests here .. somewhere. Key word are 'hidden' and 'finding'.


Thanks a lot, yea it's a bummer they don't make it anymore, it's really a useful device. But I think I will hold off on the custom piece, not that I don't trust your friend. But if you do happen to stumble on one in your junk drawer let me know and we can work out some shipping deal







I think for now I will just slow them down a bit with a voltage reducer and see how the system runs.


----------



## ciarlatano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> Thanks a lot, yea it's a bummer they don't make it anymore, it's really a useful device. But I think I will hold off on the custom piece, not that I don't trust your friend. But if you do happen to stumble on one in your junk drawer let me know and we can work out some shipping deal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think for now I will just slow them down a bit with a voltage reducer and see how the system runs.


I have a bunch of them somewhere....."_some_where" being the word. If I can remember where I put them or run across them I will shoot you a PM, you are welcome to them.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ciarlatano*
> 
> I have a bunch of them somewhere....."_some_where" being the word. If I can remember where I put them or run across them I will shoot you a PM, you are welcome to them.


Yarr Matey! The treasure hunt is on!.

Hopefully you find yours first. Much lower postage costs that way.









A bit of trivia, my first dealing with Phantkes customer support was getting the adapter for first cooler. For some unknown reason when they posted it to me in UK from Netherlands it somehow when to USA and was opened for inspection. In doing so it was obvious a razor-knife was used to cut the envelope and heatshrink, but the enclosed statement was 'damaged by processing equipment'. I contacted USPS and was told 'Tough!'.

No idea why it went anywhere near USA or why it was opened when it was clearly addressed as being sent from Netherlands to UK, not USA.


----------



## .theMetal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ciarlatano*
> 
> I have a bunch of them somewhere....."_some_where" being the word. If I can remember where I put them or run across them I will shoot you a PM, you are welcome to them.


Thanks I appreciate it. Let me know if you find any, we can work on payment if you do.


----------



## Loladinas

Well, I finally buckled and bought a Le Grand Macho RT. Came down to ~65€, shipped. Actually tasked my sister, who lives conveniently near the German border, to pick one up and send it to me, as she was already preparing a package to send to our parents.
Now I'll have to shuffle some stuff around in my Node 304 to fit my retired NH-D14 in there. Wonder if I'll notice any difference from 212 Evo in such a cramped space.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> Well, I finally buckled and bought a Le Grand Macho RT. Came down to ~65€, shipped. Actually tasked my sister, who lives conveniently near the German border, to pick one up and send it to me, as she was already preparing a package to send to our parents.
> Now I'll have to shuffle some stuff around in my Node 304 to fit my retired NH-D14 in there. Wonder if I'll notice any difference from 212 Evo in such a cramped space.


0
I suspect the D14 will give you an noticeable difference in your Node. Don't know what temps are but I would expect them to be a little better with less noise.

I'm interested in hearing how you like hte Le Grand Macho when you get it installed.


----------



## NQ32

Hi everyone,

I was hoping you guys could give me some advice as I upgrade the cooling system in my current rig. I need to set up the scene for you guys so please bear with me through this long post.

What I am running with: i5 4960k, ASUS 970 Strix, inside a Fractal Design R5. This can currently run Overwatch at +120 fps at approx 68°C at epic settings (I want colder if possible). I want to be able to run heavier games like BF1 on ultra without having to melt my computer. I haven't tried OC'ing because my cooling system is poop.

And speaking of that, the cooling of the system currently is the two stock case fans (GP-14s) as intake from front, a Cool Master Seidon 240 for CPU cooling with intake from the top, and an AF140 at the rear for exhaust. HERE IS A PICTURE: https://imgur.com/PnspwHE (yes I will be removing the HDD cage).

So with the upgrade I am trying to make, I want the case to run quieter (not dead silence) so I will be making the change to Air Cooling. Besides removing the unused HDD Cage from the front, I will also be probably picking up a Phanteks PH-TC14PE to replace the CM Seidon, which allows me to put the sound proofing panels back up top. I also want to stop using the R5's Fan controller to just using PWM and let the Mobo do the the work.

Now the part I am having trouble with, case fans. For intakes, I know I need to get rid of the GP-14s from the front, and based on a couple of posts by doyll I should be picking up TY-140s, however getting these to Canada is not worth the price. I am considering a few options: EK Vardars, Phanteks PH-F140MP (or 120s? not sure which is better for my case), or any other fans you guys recommend. Besides the two at the front, I would also be adding a fan in between the PSU and the small drive cage as another intake.

Finally the exhaust. I have a feeling that i will need to replace the AF140, so do you guys have any recommendations?

Thanks for the read and input!


----------



## .theMetal

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NQ32*
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I was hoping you guys could give me some advice as I upgrade the cooling system in my current rig. I need to set up the scene for you guys so please bear with me through this long post.
> 
> What I am running with: i5 4960k, ASUS 970 Strix, inside a Fractal Design R5. This can currently run Overwatch at +120 fps at approx 68°C at epic settings (I want colder if possible). I want to be able to run heavier games like BF1 on ultra without having to melt my computer. I haven't tried OC'ing because my cooling system is poop.
> 
> And speaking of that, the cooling of the system currently is the two stock case fans (GP-14s) as intake from front, a Cool Master Seidon 240 for CPU cooling with intake from the top, and an AF140 at the rear for exhaust. HERE IS A PICTURE: https://imgur.com/PnspwHE (yes I will be removing the HDD cage).
> 
> So with the upgrade I am trying to make, I want the case to run quieter (not dead silence) so I will be making the change to Air Cooling. Besides removing the unused HDD Cage from the front, I will also be probably picking up a Phanteks PH-TC14PE to replace the CM Seidon, which allows me to put the sound proofing panels back up top. I also want to stop using the R5's Fan controller to just using PWM and let the Mobo do the the work.
> 
> Now the part I am having trouble with, case fans. For intakes, I know I need to get rid of the GP-14s from the front, and based on a couple of posts by doyll I should be picking up TY-140s, however getting these to Canada is not worth the price. I am considering a few options: EK Vardars, Phanteks PH-F140MP (or 120s? not sure which is better for my case), or any other fans you guys recommend. Besides the two at the front, I would also be adding a fan in between the PSU and the small drive cage as another intake.
> 
> Finally the exhaust. I have a feeling that i will need to replace the AF140, so do you guys have any recommendations?
> 
> Thanks for the read and input!






First of all welcome to the forum. You've got the right idea for most of your plans.

I'm going to take a whack at being helpful. Here is exactly what I would do if I were you:

-If you can, pick up a big dual tower heat sink like the Phanteks you are talking about, it will be much quieter than that Siedon
-Remove both drive cages(even the one with drives) and ditch them, move the drives up into the empty 5.25 bays up top, mount them with adapters or however you can.
-Make sure your new heatsink is exhausting out of the back of the case, then remove the fan back there, and remove ALL of the pcie slot covers. This way all of they air flows from front to back and exhausts freely.
-With the two fans up front you will have positive pressure, make sure they are filtered to keep dust out. If you can get some, 140mm fans usually move much more air than their 120mm counterparts.
-You could probably block off the top exhausts with sound proofing material, it shouldn't hurt any air flow as long as the back of the case is opened up.

These are just my thoughts on your system, anyone can add or correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## NQ32

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *.theMetal*
> 
> 
> First of all welcome to the forum. You've got the right idea for most of your plans.
> 
> I'm going to take a whack at being helpful. Here is exactly what I would do if I were you:
> 
> -If you can, pick up a big dual tower heat sink like the Phanteks you are talking about, it will be much quieter than that Siedon
> -Remove both drive cages(even the one with drives) and ditch them, move the drives up into the empty 5.25 bays up top, mount them with adapters or however you can.
> -Make sure your new heatsink is exhausting out of the back of the case, then remove the fan back there, and remove ALL of the pcie slot covers. This way all of they air flows from front to back and exhausts freely.
> -With the two fans up front you will have positive pressure, make sure they are filtered to keep dust out. If you can get some, 140mm fans usually move much more air than their 120mm counterparts.
> -You could probably block off the top exhausts with sound proofing material, it shouldn't hurt any air flow as long as the back of the case is opened up.
> 
> These are just my thoughts on your system, anyone can add or correct me if I'm wrong.






-Okay thanks for justification of the PH-TC14PE, definitely going to pick that one up.
-Ohh being fairly new to the PC world I didn't even realize that was a thing I could do with adapters. Probably better than having the small cage up high and possibly blocking some airflow
-Filters I am good for, the R5 comes with filters for the front and bottom. Would you recommend certain fans besides the Phanteks PH-140MP's or EK Vardars that I mentioned? And since there's going to be space now, do you think adding a second bottom intake would be justifiable or is it overkill?
-R5 comes with soundproofing panels already just need to put them back when I get a new cooler.

The only thing I have questions about is the removal of the AF140? If i remove it, am I essentially having no exhaust? Like besides the open back? Would that not leave the back open for dust to enter when the PC is powered off? And would it not be harder for the hot air to escape because I thought the purpose of an exhaust fan was to help move hot air out of the PC?


----------



## .theMetal

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NQ32*
> 
> -Okay thanks for justification of the PH-TC14PE, definitely going to pick that one up.
> -Ohh being fairly new to the PC world I didn't even realize that was a thing I could do with adapters. Probably better than having the small cage up high and possibly blocking some airflow
> -Filters I am good for, the R5 comes with filters for the front and bottom. Would you recommend certain fans besides the Phanteks PH-140MP's or EK Vardars that I mentioned? And since there's going to be space now, do you think adding a second bottom intake would be justifiable or is it overkill?
> -R5 comes with soundproofing panels already just need to put them back when I get a new cooler.
> 
> The only thing I have questions about is the removal of the AF140? If i remove it, am I essentially having no exhaust? Like besides the open back? Would that not leave the back open for dust to enter when the PC is powered off? And would it not be harder for the hot air to escape because I thought the purpose of an exhaust fan was to help move hot air out of the PC?






Yup they make nifty adapters, this one is a bit expensive, but it does have holes for 3.5 and 2.5 inch drives: Click

There are a ton more than just that one, not sure where you have to order from but I bet you can find something. Often I will use 3M Command strips to mount SSD's, they are super light and stick well where you need them to.

As far as the fans go, I don't know anything about the vadars, but I do have two Phanteks PH-140SP's in the front of my case, and they are great fans. I think the MP's are the same, but they are PMW controlled, where the SP's are not. I would definitely recommend them to a friend. And yes I would try to go for two intake fans in the front if you can fit them/spare the cash for them.

I'm not really experienced on all of the points and reasoning behind removing the exhaust fan to have the back open, someone like @doyll would have more knowledge on this, but I do know it works well in my system. I have my computer off most of the time and dust does not build up in my case through the back, and it sits just about right under a ceiling fan.

Really the point is to have a positive pressure system, where the air escapes out the back easily. It especially works well with the tower heatsinks that point towards the back and can basically dump their heat out of the rear of the case with none of it staying in. There may not even be a lot of a difference with or without the fan pulling air out of the back. But I do know that you should absolutely remove the PCIE covers, a ton of your gpu heat can get dumped out through those when they are opened up.


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NQ32*
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I was hoping you guys could give me some advice as I upgrade the cooling system in my current rig. I need to set up the scene for you guys so please bear with me through this long post.
> 
> What I am running with: i5 4960k, ASUS 970 Strix, inside a Fractal Design R5. This can currently run Overwatch at +120 fps at approx 68°C at epic settings (I want colder if possible). I want to be able to run heavier games like BF1 on ultra without having to melt my computer. I haven't tried OC'ing because my cooling system is poop.
> 
> And speaking of that, the cooling of the system currently is the two stock case fans (GP-14s) as intake from front, a Cool Master Seidon 240 for CPU cooling with intake from the top, and an AF140 at the rear for exhaust. HERE IS A PICTURE: https://imgur.com/PnspwHE (yes I will be removing the HDD cage).
> 
> So with the upgrade I am trying to make, I want the case to run quieter (not dead silence) so I will be making the change to Air Cooling. Besides removing the unused HDD Cage from the front, I will also be probably picking up a Phanteks PH-TC14PE to replace the CM Seidon, which allows me to put the sound proofing panels back up top. I also want to stop using the R5's Fan controller to just using PWM and let the Mobo do the the work.
> 
> Now the part I am having trouble with, case fans. For intakes, I know I need to get rid of the GP-14s from the front, and based on a couple of posts by doyll I should be picking up TY-140s, however getting these to Canada is not worth the price. I am considering a few options: EK Vardars, Phanteks PH-F140MP (or 120s? not sure which is better for my case), or any other fans you guys recommend. Besides the two at the front, I would also be adding a fan in between the PSU and the small drive cage as another intake.
> 
> Finally the exhaust. I have a feeling that i will need to replace the AF140, so do you guys have any recommendations?
> 
> Thanks for the read and input!


Hi and welcome.

I have a similar setup, (see daily driver in my sig)

Four GP-14 Two front intakes, One bottom intake, one rear exhaust. ( following a lot of the recipe from @doyll )
PCI slot blanks removed.
Case raised 5/8 inch and is on a solid surface.

I've been experimenting with fan profiles in SpeedFan and ( from memory ) here is my current setup:
Bottom fan starts slow and is controlled by GPU temp . starts very slow. ramps up when GPU gets above 50C and maxes out when GPU hits 70C.
Front Fans start slow and are controlled by either either GPU or CPU temps. I don't remember the details as I've been fiddling with the slope and trying to find the right balance.
Rear exhaust fan speeds are simimlar to mramps up similar to what the CPU fans are set to. I can't remember the details but I think CPU fan speeds starts to increase at 40C and reaches 100% at 65C.
Front case fans are set to do about the same but I have them maxed out around 80% of their max RPM. I can't remember the settings as this was trial and error to get the fans fast, but not full power.

I still have three HDDs mounted in the bottom and they block some airflow, but they stay cool. One stays really cool because it is powered off









I think my temps are pretty good but I still have some tuning. I've been going for quieter and trying to get the right balance of air movement vs noise vs heat.

edit: I forgot to mention, the 4790K is OC to 4.7Ghz and it puts out a fair amount of heat. The GTX 970 is running stock including the stock fan profile. It also creates a fair amount of heat, but I haven't tweaked it or tuned it.


----------



## doyll

@NQ32
The stock fans on new PH-TC14PE are PH-F140HP_II which are basically same as PH-F140MP. T
Cooler fans are rounded with 120mm fan mounting holes (105mm spacing).
PH-F140MP is square with 140mm fan holes (124mm spacing)
The PWM version of PH-F140SP is PH-F140XP.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> Hi and welcome.
> 
> I have a similar setup, (see daily driver in my sig)
> 
> Four GP-14 Two front intakes, One bottom intake, one rear exhaust. ( following a lot of the recipe from @doyll )
> PCI slot blanks removed.
> Case raised 5/8 inch and is on a solid surface.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I've been experimenting with fan profiles in SpeedFan and ( from memory ) here is my current setup:
> Bottom fan starts slow and is controlled by GPU temp . starts very slow. ramps up when GPU gets above 50C and maxes out when GPU hits 70C.
> Front Fans start slow and are controlled by either either GPU or CPU temps. I don't remember the details as I've been fiddling with the slope and trying to find the right balance.
> Rear exhaust fan speeds are simimlar to mramps up similar to what the CPU fans are set to. I can't remember the details but I think CPU fan speeds starts to increase at 40C and reaches 100% at 65C.
> Front case fans are set to do about the same but I have them maxed out around 80% of their max RPM. I can't remember the settings as this was trial and error to get the fans fast, but not full power.
> 
> I still have three HDDs mounted in the bottom and they block some airflow, but they stay cool. One stays really cool because it is powered off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think my temps are pretty good but I still have some tuning. I've been going for quieter and trying to get the right balance of air movement vs noise vs heat.
> 
> edit: I forgot to mention, the 4790K is OC to 4.7Ghz and it puts out a fair amount of heat. The GTX 970 is running stock including the stock fan profile. It also creates a fair amount of heat, but I haven't tweaked it or tuned it.


Sounds like a good setup.








With temps like you have there is obviously no problem with airflow, but if you ever want to know what the cooler intake air temps are compared to your 2nd post in thread might help.
Which GP-14 fans? There are Dynamic X2 GP-14 and new Dynamic GP-14. Not sure what the difference is. Both seem to be 1000rpm 3-pin 68.4cfm/0.71mmH2O.

In my experience 0.71mm H2O means little to no airflow at low rpm behind grill and filter.
PH-F140SP is 1200rpm 82.1cfm / 1.33mmH2O
TY-147A is 1300rpm 74cfm / 1.56mmH2O
PH-F140MP is 68.1cfm / 1.62mmH2O

Specifications are very misleading because the airflow rating is cfm in free airflow, fan in open space; and static pressure mmH2O is level reached when fan stops moving air, no airflow at all. As be don't use our fans in system like this, these ratings mean little. About all we can do is guess that more all will flow from a fan with a higher static pressure rating when used in appiclations with restriction. Generally a fan with a lower free airflow rating and higher static pressure rating will likey flow more air through a grill or grill and filter. Post #11 in this thread explains it.

Also, having case fans running wiht speed control so they cycle in unison with component fans so they supply the airflow needed by components regardless of system load and component fan speed makes system much quieter at low to mid load levels. CPU and GPU cooler fans have been speed controlled based on load / heat levels for donkey's years, so it only makes sense to do the same with the case fans that are supplying them with air. Post #5 is optimizing case airflow basics.


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Which GP-14 fans? There are Dynamic X2 GP-14 and new Dynamic GP-14. Not sure what the difference is. Both seem to be 1000rpm 3-pin 68.4cfm/0.71mmH2O.


The box says Dynamic GP-14 with the same specs as you listed. At 20% setting in speedfan, the reported speed is 357 RPM and I cannot hear them at this speed. They are less than a year old, and they are exactly this fan.

The only noise I can hear at idle is one HDD, an older WD Caviar Black. It is used as an internal backup drive and it does spin down, but I can hear it when it wakes up.

Thanks for the reminder on measuring temps at the cooler. Now that all the fans are all connected to the MoBo and managed by SpeedFan, this may be my next tuning opportunity.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The box says Dynamic GP-14 with the same specs as you listed. At 20% setting in speedfan, the reported speed is 357 RPM and I cannot hear them at this speed. They are less than a year old, and they are exactly this fan.
> 
> The only noise I can hear at idle is one HDD, an older WD Caviar Black. It is used as an internal backup drive and it does spin down, but I can hear it when it wakes up.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reminder on measuring temps at the cooler. Now that all the fans are all connected to the MoBo and managed by SpeedFan, this may be my next tuning opportunity.


Oh no! Not another 'get the lowest temp possible even when system is silent and temps are well below what others think are fanstic' fanatic.








We of this select group have special decoder rings and secret handshake too.


----------



## NQ32

@doyll

On post #27 of this thread where you compare the Noctua NF-A14/A15 to the TY-140s, the line graph of CFM vs dBa shows that the Silverstone FHP141 v2s perform similarly to the TY-143.

Would you say that the Silverstone FHP141s would be a better front intake for my R5 (instead of the Phanteks F140MPs)? I'm planning to keep the front filter on and the front door closed 99% of the time and since these have 0.23~3.7 mmH2O I am considering buying them? Otherwise I might just pull the trigger on 4 of the Phanteks.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NQ32*
> 
> @doyll
> 
> On post #27 of this thread where you compare the Noctua NF-A14/A15 to the TY-140s, the line graph of CFM vs dBa shows that the Silverstone FHP141 v2s perform similarly to the TY-143.
> 
> Would you say that the Silverstone FHP141s would be a better front intake for my R5 (instead of the Phanteks F140MPs)? I'm planning to keep the front filter on and the front door closed 99% of the time and since these have 0.23~3.7 mmH2O I am considering buying them? Otherwise I might just pull the trigger on 4 of the Phanteks.


FHP141 is good, but it's also 38mm thick, not normal 25mm, and I don't think that thick a fan will fit. TY-143 SQ wil or TY-143 modifed to be 141x141mm .. if you can stand red/orange colors.


----------



## ciarlatano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Oh no! Not another 'get the lowest temp possible even when system is silent and temps are well below what others think are fanstic' fanatic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We of this select group have special decoder rings and secret handshake too.


I have warned you in the past about letting outsiders know about the decoder ring. Now we are going to have to change again.


----------



## NQ32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> FHP141 is good, but it's also 38mm thick, not normal 25mm, and I don't think that thick a fan will fit.


Even with front drive cages removed? I might do that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> TY-143 SQ wil or TY-143 modifed to be 141x141mm .. if you can stand red/orange colors.


Honestly I can, but Amazon Canada boosts prices to $88.00 CAD


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NQ32*
> 
> Even with front drive cages removed? I might do that.
> Honestly I can, but Amazon Canada boosts prices to $88.00 CAD


Honesty I would not at that kind of prices. The Phanteks PHF140SP, XP or MP will do fine. I've ltos of the XP because I got 10 extra out of two water cooled Enthoo Primo builds that owners wanted different fans on their radiators. The work just fine if using variable voltage control. The PH-F140XP is same fan with PWM control if you want to use PWM control. I prefer PWM control myself, but variable voltage is fine too. Depends on what your source of control is. .


----------



## NQ32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Honesty I would not at that kind of prices.


I know man. Buying things in Canada makes me sad.









But with that I think I will go with 4 Phanteks F140MPs. Will try to see which is better: 2 front intake/2 bottom intake/0 exhaust or 2 front/1 bottom intake/1 exhaust and I will update you guys when I'm done with the work. Hopefully this goes smoothly.

Thanks for the help so far everyone!


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Oh no! Not another 'get the lowest temp possible even when system is silent and temps are well below what others think are fanstic' fanatic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We of this select group have special decoder rings and secret handshake too.


my "daily driver" has three personalities.

first: an over-powered home computer and when I'm using it in this mode it is silent, and even with the overclock, I have the power saving intel features all setup so it idles down nicely and uses very little power. The GTX 970 fans stop when it is cool so I don't have much work to do here.

second: a gaming system, and on the rare occasion I get to play a game it is quiet enough, and with headphones on, the fan noise doesn't bother me. If I gamed more I'd either be pushing the system harder and need to focus more on cooling or just buy better headphones and turn up the volume.

third: a workstation running several VMs, and a couple of the guests tend to hammer the base system (Win 81 pro). I don't think Win81pro is very good "hypervisor" but it is what I have, and I've not invested much time trying to throttle the guests so that might be another option. Today if any one of the VMs gets busy it ramps up the CPU to 4.7Ghz and 1.29V V-core and the rest follows. So it is the third personality I plan to tune to get the right mix of CPU speed, power used, temps and noise. I'm willing to sacrifice some performance, to drop power use, which will reduce the heat and if I can get it quieter too then it will be a triple win.

*TL;DR where do I get my ring?*


----------



## ciarlatano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> my "daily driver" has three personalities.
> 
> first: an over-powered home computer and when I'm using it in this mode it is silent, and even with the overclock, I have the power saving intel features all setup so it idles down nicely and uses very little power. The GTX 970 fans stop when it is cool so I don't have much work to do here.
> 
> second: a gaming system, and on the rare occasion I get to play a game it is quiet enough, and with headphones on, the fan noise doesn't bother me. If I gamed more I'd either be pushing the system harder and need to focus more on cooling or just buy better headphones and turn up the volume.
> 
> third: a workstation running several VMs, and a couple of the guests tend to hammer the base system (Win 81 pro). I don't think Win81pro is very good "hypervisor" but it is what I have, and I've not invested much time trying to throttle the guests so that might be another option. Today if any one of the VMs gets busy it ramps up the CPU to 4.7Ghz and 1.29V V-core and the rest follows. So it is the third personality I plan to tune to get the right mix of CPU speed, power used, temps and noise. I'm willing to sacrifice some performance, to drop power use, which will reduce the heat and if I can get it quieter too then it will be a triple win.
> 
> *TL;DR where do I get my ring?*


Mine only has one. I feel deprived. My CPU, GPU and liquid temps never go up enough to get the fans to budge off of 800 rpm no matter what I'm doing.....









Are you sure you want the ring? It comes with a Green Lantern costume that must be worn at all times.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ciarlatano*
> 
> Mine only has one. I feel deprived. My CPU, GPU and liquid temps never go up enough to get the fans to budge off of 800 rpm no matter what I'm doing.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure you want the ring? It comes with a Green Lantern costume that must be worn at all times.


Now you've gone and done it!
We much now change our costume .. at your expense!


----------



## ciarlatano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Now you've gone and done it!
> We much now change our costume .. at your expense!










It slipped out.....


----------



## Loladinas

Jesus christ what is wrong with me, why do I keep buying these things? Things I don't need!


----------



## TheBloodEagle

I really love my Cooler Master JetFlo 120mm; currently just have one installed though as intake. How do they compare to the newer Cooler Master MasterFan Pro 120's? There's three types, Air Flow, Air Pressure & Balanced. Are the JetFlo's the equivalent of the Balanced? Is the build quality and bearing quality just as good? JetFlo's seem to have better CFM (plus I love how the LED is more like a status/activity indicator rather than flashy bling bling not that you need to get the LED version).


----------



## mAs81

Any thoughts on the Phanteks PH-TC12LS ??
I'm planning a HTPC build in an Corsair Air 240 , and even tho I won't be oc'ing the cpu , I'd like good temps..
Original post&thoughts here .
Should I use the fan cooler as exhaust like mentioned in the guide?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mAs81*
> 
> Any thoughts on the Phanteks PH-TC12LS ??
> I'm planning a HTPC build in an Corsair Air 240 , and even tho I won't be oc'ing the cpu , I'd like good temps..
> Original post&thoughts here .
> Should I use the fan cooler as exhaust like mentioned in the guide?


I have not used the PH-TC12LS, but think it will do a very good job for you.

PH-TC12LS has 6x heat pipes and is 119.4 mm (L) x 104.1 mm (W) x 48.3 mm (H) without the fan .. meaning it is very similar to Thermalright AXP-100H (122x105x51.2mm) .. which is new taller version of AXP-100 size of 122 x 105 x 44.2 mm.

I have the AXP-100 in HTPC and love it. It is on an i7 920 and only change is fan is pulling air out of cooler and away from motherboard instead of pushing into it. Reason is explained here.

You might find using it with fan pulling from cooler and leaving your case with front intake to work better than reverse case airflow.








Experimentation is the way forward.









Have you considered some of the new low profile tower coolers? Like NH-D9L?
I think it might be a couple degrees cooler and being a tower has less problems keeping heated exhaust air away from cool intake air.


----------



## mAs81

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I have not used the PH-TC12LS, but think it will do a very good job for you.
> I have the AXP-100 in HTPC and love it. It is on an i7 920 and only change is fan is pulling air out of cooler and away from motherboard instead of pushing into it. Reason is explained here.
> You might find using it with fan pulling from cooler and leaving your case with front intake to work better than reverse case airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experimentation is the way forward.


Thanks!!I never thought of a CPU cooler fan exhausting air , but seeing your post ,it really makes sense !! I'll try it that way and I'll post the results here


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mAs81*
> 
> Thanks!!I never thought of a CPU cooler fan exhausting air , but seeing your post ,it really makes sense !! I'll try it that way and I'll post the results here


Thanks!


----------



## mAs81

Hey @doyll I need your opinion on something..

I found the Cryorig C7 which I can get for about 10euros cheaper than the Phanteks PH-TC12LS , but I believe that the Phanteks will perform better since it has a bigger fan/cooling fins array..

I won't be overclocking the 15-4670,but it is a Haswell and I want the best cooling performance as possible for my budget..

I'f you'd care to chip in,I'd greatly appreciate it


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mAs81*
> 
> Hey @doyll I need your opinion on something..
> 
> I found the Cryorig C7 which I can get for about 10euros cheaper than the Phanteks PH-TC12LS , but I believe that the Phanteks will perform better since it has a bigger fan/cooling fins array..
> 
> I won't be overclocking the 15-4670,but it is a Haswell and I want the best cooling performance as possible for my budget..
> 
> I'f you'd care to chip in,I'd greatly appreciate it


I don't know which will work best for you. Too many variables to deal with.


----------



## mAs81

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I don't know which will work best for you. Too many variables to deal with.


I thought so too..Well,It's all trial & error when it comes to these things I guess..I still have some time to do my homework..

Thank you for your swift answer


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mAs81*
> 
> I thought so too..Well,It's all trial & error when it comes to these things I guess..I still have some time to do my homework..
> 
> Thank you for your swift answer


For me the biggest unknown variable is the air temp going into cooler. Pancake coolers a very bad at increasing their own intake air temp (as you know) so unless I had one to test myself I cannot compare it to other coolers any more accurately than I already have

I can say H7 is more than capable of cooling a 84w CPU, and that is what i5-4670 CPU is rated.


----------



## mAs81

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> For me the biggest unknown variable is the air temp going into cooler. Pancake coolers a very bad at increasing their own intake air temp (as you know) so unless I had one to test myself I cannot compare it to other coolers any more accurately than I already have
> 
> I can say H7 is more than capable of cooling a 84w CPU, and that is what i5-4670 CPU is rated.


I understand..That's why I'm worried about their cooling capabilities.But I think that I'll stick with the Phanteks' one , cause it seems like it will do a better job at cooling..After all I won't be OC'ing and I believe that it can handle the Turbo Boost of the processor , temperature-wise..

I believe that the 2 front front fans will provide adequate air ,and I will try the pull configuration too to see what suits me best..

I wish I had a more flexible budget to get something more efficient,but that is not possible..

Thank you for all your help , I will post results later on


----------



## PowerSlide

Bought 3 phanteks ph-f140mp from taobao..decent price at RMB65 each compare to other fans and I'm not willing to pay alot for fans

Going to use as case fans on my s340..I know it's a radiator fan but at these prices I don't have much choice lol


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PowerSlide*
> 
> Bought 3 phanteks ph-f140mp from taobao..decent price at RMB65 each compare to other fans and I'm not willing to pay alot for fans
> 
> Going to use as case fans on my s340..I know it's a radiator fan but at these prices I don't have much choice lol


Have you seen the PH-F140HP_II? It is same fan in round housing with 120mm fan mounting holes and is newest 140mm cooler fan.









I have used lots and lots of different fans over many many years and have never found a 'radiator' fan that did not perform well when mounted on case vents.

But I have found many 'case' fans that did not perform acceptably when mounted on case vents.


----------



## PowerSlide

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Have you seen the PH-F140HP_II? It is same fan in round housing with 120mm fan mounting holes and is newest 140mm cooler fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have used lots and lots of different fans over many many years and have never found a 'radiator' fan that did not perform well when mounted on case vents.
> 
> But I have found many 'case' fans that did not perform acceptably when mounted on case vents.


didn't see this model at taobao, the latest ones is very hard to find but at least better than where i live

also these 140mm fan with 120mm mount won't work for my S340

i also found the red thermalright square fan, TY-143? but much more expensive so i go for phanteks instead

coming in few days, they surely take their time to get it shipped to me


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PowerSlide*
> 
> didn't see this model at taobao, the latest ones is very hard to find but at least better than where i live
> 
> also these 140mm fan with 120mm mount won't work for my S340
> 
> i also found the red thermalright square fan, TY-143? but much more expensive so i go for phanteks instead
> 
> coming in few days, they surely take their time to get it shipped to me


Sorry, was think you were looking for 140mm fan with 120mm mounts for cooler.
Another option is TY-147A SQ. But the PH-F140MP are good fans. So are the PH-F140SP (variable voltage) and PH-F140XP (PWM). All three of these PH-F140 models perform very similar to each other.


----------



## PowerSlide

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, was think you were looking for 140mm fan with 120mm mounts for cooler.
> Another option is TY-147A SQ. But the PH-F140MP are good fans. So are the PH-F140SP (variable voltage) and PH-F140XP (PWM). All three of these PH-F140 models perform very similar to each other.


got the fans last week but only y'day put it all in, run them full speed and its fine for my ears but noise won't be a issue as my body is cooled with a ceiling fan and another table fan









also good time to have better fans as hot weather is gonna kick in next month with temps going from 36C to 40C..crazy hot where i live

forget some photos..very nice build quality


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PowerSlide*
> 
> got the fans last week but only y'day put it all in, run them full speed and its fine for my ears but noise won't be a issue as my body is cooled with a ceiling fan and another table fan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also good time to have better fans as hot weather is gonna kick in next month with temps going from 36C to 40C..crazy hot where i live
> 
> forget some photos..very nice build quality


Glad you are happy with them. They are good fans.


----------



## Drift Monkey

Hey y'all!

Been running a Define S since September or so and while the stock 2 fan setup is decent enough, I can't help but tinker.









Anyway some basic specs:

i7 5820k (4.4ghz OC) cooled by a DH-15
EVGA GTX 1070 FTW (yes, a "spit the hot air everywhere" cooling setup)



Everything is air-cooled, as you can see, and there is plenty of open space. Anyway, after reading this thread up a bit, I think there are a couple of ways to go about getting some better cooling:


Just add 3 fans up front (I'm thinking Fractal HP-14s to overcome the filter/front door) and relocate the stock front GP-14 to the bottom intake spot. Leave the other rear GP-14 in as the only exhaust (or just remove it).
Get rid of both the stock GP-14s and and putting 4x HP-14s in all the stock intake locations (4 front 1 bottom). No exhaust fans.
Regardless, I do plan on raising the case legs up a bit further (I just recently put it on a hard surface, I'm not sure a bottom fan woulda done any good when I had it on carpet







), removing the PCI covers, and possibly cutting out the grilles/removing the I/O panel cover if I find the former solutions insufficient.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## TheBloodEagle

When you stack two air flow fans (not on a rad) with maybe a 10mm gasket to give some separation, how does the flow change, out of curiosity? (Similar to server stacked fans)


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drift Monkey*
> 
> Hey y'all!
> 
> Been running a Define S since September or so and while the stock 2 fan setup is decent enough, I can't help but tinker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway some basic specs:
> 
> i7 5820k (4.4ghz OC) cooled by a DH-15
> EVGA GTX 1070 FTW (yes, a "spit the hot air everywhere" cooling setup)
> 
> 
> 
> Everything is air-cooled, as you can see, and there is plenty of open space. Anyway, after reading this thread up a bit, I think there are a couple of ways to go about getting some better cooling:
> 
> 
> Just add 3 fans up front (I'm thinking Fractal HP-14s to overcome the filter/front door) and relocate the stock front GP-14 to the bottom intake spot. Leave the other rear GP-14 in as the only exhaust (or just remove it).
> Get rid of both the stock GP-14s and and putting 4x HP-14s in all the stock intake locations (4 front 1 bottom). No exhaust fans.
> Regardless, I do plan on raising the case legs up a bit further (I just recently put it on a hard surface, I'm not sure a bottom fan woulda done any good when I had it on carpet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), removing the PCI covers, and possibly cutting out the grilles/removing the I/O panel cover if I find the former solutions insufficient.
> 
> Any input would be greatly appreciated!


I don't think 3x 140mm will fit in front. 3x 120mm or 1x 140mm according to specs.

As it is now you only have 1x 140mm of airflow though the case same as 1x 140mm of airflow through CPU cooler. Stacking fans does not improve their maximum airflow spec, it only improves their static presssure spec .. so not much improvement in overall airflow.

I think I would try:
2x HP-14 front; might not need 1x HP-12 bottom intake.
Remove unused PCIe back slot covers. Even these vented one only flow about half what open area will.
Raise case so there is 40-50mm between case bottom and what it sets on (maybe not needed if no bottom intake is needed).
Maybe a divider between GPU and CPU from intake to middle of GPU.
As a test with no expense, try moving back exhaust to front intake with intakes spaced as below and a piece of cardboard cut to fit from motherboard to side cover .. with PCIe covers removed.
Try it with and without front cover and filter on case to see if cover and filter are restricting airflow.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> When you stack two air flow fans (not on a rad) with maybe a 10mm gasket to give some separation, how does the flow change, out of curiosity? (Similar to server stacked fans)


In theory stacking fans almost doubles their static pressure rating ( 1+1 = 2), but their CFM rating does not change, .. one flowing into another one is still one.

But stacking to identical doesn't change pressure much either. Part of reason is air exiting 1st fan is spinning in same direction as fan, and 2nd fan is spinning same direction at same speed.

A radiator between them (or a cooler, intake to exhaust in a case) it helps 'straighten' the airflow so 2nd fan can help give a little more flow. But often the difference is minimal .. especially if there is not a lot of resistance. Example; most 2x 'stacked' fan CPU coolers have 1-2c better cooling with 2x than with 1x fans.









The stacked server fans I have seen had one fan spinning opposite direction of other .. and were extremely noisy too!









Basic drawing to show what stacking does in theory.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

doyll, I appreciate your insight as always.

Regarding what you wrote, it makes me think of an experiment now that you mention it, what if you stacked different optimized fans? Front fan would be 'air flow" optimized and the second would be "pressure" optimized both on the same PWM controller (try to match RPM roughly). Would the first fan help bring in "more" air because of the design, while the second fan just behind help "push" it through more effectively? I guess in a way I'm thinking of a solution in search of a problem haha. Just interesting to see.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> doyll, I appreciate your insight as always.
> 
> Regarding what you wrote, it makes me think of an experiment now that you mention it, what if you stacked different optimized fans? Front fan would be 'air flow" optimized and the second would be "pressure" optimized both on the same PWM controller. Would the first fan help bring in "more" air because of the design, while the second fan just behind help "push" it through more effectively?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Too many variables to say for sure, but 999 out of 1000 times it would probably not help enough to know it did .. as in 1c or less difference.
The swirling airflow pattern created by 1st fan pretty much kills any benefit a second fan might in theory be able to supply. Maybe on a very thick/very restrictive radiator it might help enough to be worthwhile. But very thick radiators don't cool as well using a bigger but thinner radiator, so it becomes moot / illogical to pursue that line of thought in cooling .. at least I think it is.


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Too many variables to say for sure, but 999 out of 1000 times it would probably not help enough to know it did .. as in 1c or less difference.
> The swirling airflow pattern created by 1st fan pretty much kills any benefit a second fan might in theory be able to supply. Maybe on a very thick/very restrictive radiator it might help enough to be worthwhile. But very thick radiators don't cool as well using a bigger but thinner radiator, so it becomes moot / illogical to pursue that line of thought in cooling .. at least I think it is.


Doyll what about if the fans are counter-rotating? I know Delta makes some fans that have blade setups like this (one set of counter-rotating blades in the same chassis).


----------



## Arengeta

Hello doyll,
I had 2 intake fans (be quiet! shadow wings 2 PWM) in my case and I've thinking about third one, but recently they've gone out of stock in every shop where I live in. I tried Noctua NF-F12 but it is very loud in tight space, while in open space or attached to a rad it is almost inaudible.
Currently I'm looking for 1 or 3 silent 120mm fans for my PC (case is Silverstone Grandia GD06). I am very unsure what to pick since the last fan is located in a really tight space right next to PSU and HDD and the Noctua was extremely loud there.
My current pick was Corsair ML120 fan, what do you guys think of it? Or what would you recommend instead of it? Best would be in black colour.


----------



## Drift Monkey

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I don't think 3x 140mm will fit in front. 3x 120mm or 1x 140mm according to specs.
> 
> As it is now you only have 1x 140mm of airflow though the case same as 1x 140mm of airflow through CPU cooler. Stacking fans does not improve their maximum airflow spec, it only improves their static presssure spec .. so not much improvement in overall airflow.
> 
> I think I would try:
> 2x HP-14 front; might not need 1x HP-12 bottom intake.
> Remove unused PCIe back slot covers. Even these vented one only flow about half what open area will.
> Raise case so there is 40-50mm between case bottom and what it sets on (maybe not needed if no bottom intake is needed).
> Maybe a divider between GPU and CPU from intake to middle of GPU.
> As a test with no expense, try moving back exhaust to front intake with intakes spaced as below and a piece of cardboard cut to fit from motherboard to side cover .. with PCIe covers removed.
> Try it with and without front cover and filter on case to see if cover and filter are restricting airflow.


First off, thanks for your input! Nice illustration as well!

I think you're mistaken there (or maybe confusing it with another case)...the specs read: Front: 3 - 120/140 mm fans (included is 1 Fractal Design Dynamic GP14 fan, 1000 RPM speed). I've also seen others stick 3x140s in the front, so they should fit.





You're correct....stacking does nothing. I might actually be losing some cooling at load since the NF-A15s on the DH15 outdo the stock case fans.

A divider may help...routing 2x of the front 140s (top 2 front intake) to the CPU and 2x 140s (bottom front intake and bottom intake) to the GPU could help get air specifically to those components. I'll have to look into that.

I was thinking of moving the stock exhaust to fan to either the top or bottom front intake spot (not sure which one would benefit more) as a free test. Moving it to the bottom intake in front of the PSU could be a good test too...my PSU gives enough clearance for a 140mm down there too.

As for the front cover, it does indeed restrict some flow. Opening it does lower internal temps a bit, but I'll probably only remove it under really heavy loads to limit noise.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drift Monkey*
> 
> First off, thanks for your input! Nice illustration as well!
> 
> I think you're mistaken there (or maybe confusing it with another case)...the specs read: Front: 3 - 120/140 mm fans (included is 1 Fractal Design Dynamic GP14 fan, 1000 RPM speed). I've also seen others stick 3x140s in the front, so they should fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're correct....stacking does nothing. I might actually be losing some cooling at load since the NF-A15s on the DH15 outdo the stock case fans.
> 
> A divider may help...routing 2x of the front 140s (top 2 front intake)to the CPU and 2x 140s (bottom front intake and bottom intake) to the GPU could help get air specifically to those components. I'll have to look into that.
> 
> I was thinking of moving the stock exhaust to fan to either the top or bottom front intake spot (not sure which one would benefit more) as a free test. Moving it to the bottom intake in front of the PSU could be a good test too...my PSU gives enough clearance for a 140mm down there too.
> 
> As for the front cover, it does indeed restrict some flow. Opening it does lower internal temps a bit, but I'll probably only remove it under really heavy loads to limit noise.


You are correct. I was thinking Define C for some strange reason.









CPU needs about 1.5 fans and GPU needs about the same, so 3x front intakes would be about right. Try the 2x you have without front cover on case .. maybe remove filter too just to see how it does.

I always monitor airflow temp into coolers to determine if they are getting the cool air they need..


----------



## Drift Monkey

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You are correct. I was thinking Define C for some strange reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPU needs about 1.5 fans and GPU needs about the same, so 3x front intakes would be about right. Try the 2x you have without front cover on case .. maybe remove filter too just to see how it does.
> 
> I always monitor airflow temp into coolers to determine if they are getting the cool air they need..


Haha, no worries mate. I had to double check myself!









I see, I'll try that out soon. I also need to head to hardware store at some point and see if they have anything that will extend the feet of my case for more clearance. Honestly, even overclocked, the CPU is hovering around 37-38C at idle. Not bad, but I could always do better. The GPU stays pretty cool too, even overclocked (at load, of course, it sits at 32C or less at idle) but better heat extraction is never a bad thing.









I think I'll go ahead and order 4x HP-14s and donate my stock 2x GP-14s to my upcoming build for my dad (case undermined).

Thanks again for your input!


----------



## KoolDrew

@doyll following your advise I went ahead and moved my exhaust fan in my Enthoo Pro M acrylic to the front and removed the PCIe slot covers. I did some testing under load with Prime 95 v28.5 set at 1344K FFT size and Furmark running as well. Currently getting a 8C temp difference between ambient and the air going into the CPU cooler. I currently have both intake fans attached to the system fan headers on my motherboard, so I assume the next step would be to get a PWM fan hub so the fan speed ramps up a bit under load. It's the heat rising from the GPU causing it as the temp difference is only 1-2C if there's no GPU load.

Or perhaps given Furmark + P95 far exceeds any type of real world load, this temp difference is fine and there's no need to worry about it?

EDIT - Did a 3DMark Time Spy run and it also gives me about an 8C difference. 23C ambient temp, 31C measured going into the CPU cooler. This is also still running my CM 212+, will be receiving my True Spirit 140 Power on Monday.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> @doyll following your advise I went ahead and moved my exhaust fan in my Enthoo Pro M acrylic to the front and removed the PCIe slot covers. I did some testing under load with Prime 95 v28.5 set at 1344K FFT size and Furmark running as well. Currently getting a 8C temp difference between ambient and the air going into the CPU cooler. I currently have both intake fans attached to the system fan headers on my motherboard, so I assume the next step would be to get a PWM fan hub so the fan speed ramps up a bit under load. It's the heat rising from the GPU causing it as the temp difference is only 1-2C if there's no GPU load.
> 
> Or perhaps given Furmark + P95 far exceeds any type of real world load, this temp difference is fine and there's no need to worry about it?
> 
> EDIT - Did a 3DMark Time Spy run and it also gives me about an 8C difference. 23C ambient temp, 31C measured going into the CPU cooler. This is also still running my CM 212+, will be receiving my True Spirit 140 Power on Monday.


You could try a piece of cardboard from motherboard to side panel and from fans back to CPU cooler. This often helps keep the heat air from GPU from mixing with CPU intake air. 8c difference at heavy load is not terrible. What are your fan speeds? what is CPU temp? What is GPU intake air temp? What is GPU temp? All at full speed / full load.









Is this with front cover and filter on case?


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You could try a piece of cardboard from motherboard to side panel and from fans back to CPU cooler. This often helps keep the heat air from GPU from mixing with CPU intake air. 8c difference at heavy load is not terrible. What are your fan speeds? what is CPU temp? What is GPU intake air temp? What is GPU temp? All at full speed / full load.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this with front cover and filter on case?


These results were taken running my 4690k @ 4.6GHz w/ 1.35v and 970 @ 1493 / 3903 w/ 1.25v after 15 minutes of [email protected] on all 4 cores and Furmark running. Front panel and filter were both on.

CPU Temp - 85c
CPU Intake Temp - 32.3c (8.3c variance from ambient)
GPU Temp - 76c
GPU Intake Temp - 34.2c (9.8c variance from ambient)
Fan Speeds - 822 / 837 RPM for both intake fans. No fan control outside of "Normal" setting in BIOS.


----------



## Drift Monkey

My fans arrived. I installed them along with my new NVMe drive!





Very impressed with the HP-14s. They can get kinda loud at full speed, but under normal conditions, I can't really hear differences from the stock fan setup. Being PWM, I have all fans set to my mobo's "performance" mode and sett hem to monitor the CPU's temps (seems a better choice than monitoring mobo temps since they are usually a good bit lower) and they move a good bit of air - much more significant than the stock GP-14s. Idle temps have gotten down to 24C for the CPU and 21C for the GPU. At my typical load (gaming) the max I've seen the CPU climb to is 56.5C (@ 4.4ghz OC) and the GPU 60C (@ 2ghz). Not bad.

The only thing left for me to do is go to the hardware store and find some bits to lift up the case a bit further up - I have noticed the bottom fan isn't pushing as much into the case as it could be.


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> These results were taken running my 4690k @ 4.6GHz w/ 1.35v and 970 @ 1493 / 3903 w/ 1.25v after 15 minutes of [email protected] on all 4 cores and Furmark running. Front panel and filter were both on.
> 
> CPU Temp - 85c
> CPU Intake Temp - 32.3c (8.3c variance from ambient)
> GPU Temp - 76c
> GPU Intake Temp - 34.2c (9.8c variance from ambient)
> Fan Speeds - 822 / 837 RPM for both intake fans. No fan control outside of "Normal" setting in BIOS.


Perhaps a different CPU cooler would drop the CPU temps.

What was the fan on the 212 running at?


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> Perhaps a different CPU cooler would drop the CPU temps.
> 
> What was the fan on the 212 running at?


CPU fan was running at 1800-1900 RPM, but I have a True Spirit 140 Power being delivered on Monday. Just wanted to get case air flow optimized in the meantime.


----------



## Drift Monkey

Lifted up my case just now...







The bottle caps are holding fine but I could probably stand to go a bit higher. The case it about ~1.25" off the surface now. Hmmm...how can to get to 1.5-1.6" for cheap/free....


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drift Monkey*
> 
> 
> 
> Lifted up my case just now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bottle caps are holding fine but I could probably stand to go a bit higher. The case it about ~1.25" off the surface now. Hmmm...how can to get to 1.5-1.6" for cheap/free....


Cut a cardboard and make it in a few layers, then use colour or regular tape.


----------



## Drift Monkey

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> Cut a cardboard and make it in a few layers, then use colour or regular tape.


Good idea! I also thought of stacking bottle caps with tape/glue. I'll post what I come up with.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drift Monkey*
> 
> My fans arrived. I installed them along with my new NVMe drive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very impressed with the HP-14s. They can get kinda loud at full speed, but under normal conditions, I can't really hear differences from the stock fan setup. Being PWM, I have all fans set to my mobo's "performance" mode and sett hem to monitor the CPU's temps (seems a better choice than monitoring mobo temps since they are usually a good bit lower) and they move a good bit of air - much more significant than the stock GP-14s. Idle temps have gotten down to 24C for the CPU and 21C for the GPU. At my typical load (gaming) the max I've seen the CPU climb to is 56.5C (@ 4.4ghz OC) and the GPU 60C (@ 2ghz). Not bad.
> 
> The only thing left for me to do is go to the hardware store and find some bits to lift up the case a bit further up - I have noticed the bottom fan isn't pushing as much into the case as it could be.


Much better temps!








I suspect raising case some will lower GPU temps another 2-5c .. depending on GPU fan speed changes.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> These results were taken running my 4690k @ 4.6GHz w/ 1.35v and 970 @ 1493 / 3903 w/ 1.25v after 15 minutes of [email protected] on all 4 cores and Furmark running. Front panel and filter were both on.
> 
> CPU Temp - 85c
> CPU Intake Temp - 32.3c (8.3c variance from ambient)
> GPU Temp - 76c
> GPU Intake Temp - 34.2c (9.8c variance from ambient)
> Fan Speeds - 822 / 837 RPM for both intake fans. No fan control outside of "Normal" setting in BIOS.


Your air temp into coolers is 5-7c higher than I like to see, but your case fans need to be running at full speed when CPU / GPU get above 70c My guess is if they were your compontnent intake air temps would be 2-3c above room. Could you try them at full speed by connecting them to different header or a PSU to fan adapter?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drift Monkey*
> 
> 
> 
> Lifted up my case just now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bottle caps are holding fine but I could probably stand to go a bit higher. The case it about ~1.25" off the surface now. Hmmm...how can to get to 1.5-1.6" for cheap/free....


How much difference did your bottle caps make?
Do you have any arisol spray can caps around? Like from spray paint cans or similar .. they are much bigger.


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Your air temp into coolers is 5-7c higher than I like to see, but your case fans need to be running at full speed when CPU / GPU get above 70c My guess is if they were your compontnent intake air temps would be 2-3c above room. Could you try them at full speed by connecting them to different header or a PSU to fan adapter?


Just set everything to full speed using Gigabyte's fan control in System Information Viewer and got much better results running the same test:

CPU Temp - 81c
GPU Temp - 73c
CPU Intake - 30c (6.4c variance)
GPU Intake - 26.2c (2.6c variance)

Fan Speeds:
CPU - 1985RPM (100%)
GPU - 1585RPM (scales 1:1 with temp using fan curve in AB, so ~70%)
SYS1 - 1227RPM (100%)
SYS2 - 1248RPM (100%)

Now I just have to get my intake fans to scale with CPU temp. In Gigabytes software I can set presets such as Full Speed, Performance, Standard, and Quiet. It also has a custom fan curve you can make, but it's based off of chipset temp I believe when using the system fan headers, not CPU temp. In the BIOS I can choose Normal, Silent, Manual, or Full Speed. Manual gives me the options "XX PWM Value / C". The value can be set anywhere from 0.75 PWM value / C to 2.5 PWM Value / C. Again I don't think this is based off of CPU temp. Looks like my best bet is setting the intake fans up through a PWM hub to the CPU Header and maybe stick with the Performance preset in the software. Unless I can figure out how this equates to the PWM values in the BIOS.



Also, even though the CPU intake is a 6.4c variance, perhaps with the new CPU cooler this will drop as it'll move more air?


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> Just set everything to full speed using Gigabyte's fan control in System Information Viewer and got much better results running the same test:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> CPU Temp - 81c
> GPU Temp - 73c
> CPU Intake - 30c (6.4c variance)
> GPU Intake - 26.2c (2.6c variance)
> 
> Fan Speeds:
> CPU - 1985RPM (100%)
> GPU - 1585RPM (scales 1:1 with temp using fan curve in AB, so ~70%)
> SYS1 - 1227RPM (100%)
> SYS2 - 1248RPM (100%)
> 
> Now I just have to get my intake fans to scale with CPU temp. In Gigabytes software I can set presets such as Full Speed, Performance, Standard, and Quiet. It also has a custom fan curve you can make, but it's based off of chipset temp I believe when using the system fan headers, not CPU temp. In the BIOS I can choose Normal, Silent, Manual, or Full Speed. Manual gives me the options "XX PWM Value / C". The value can be set anywhere from 0.75 PWM value / C to 2.5 PWM Value / C. Again I don't think this is based off of CPU temp. Looks like my best bet is setting the intake fans up through a PWM hub to the CPU Header and maybe stick with the Performance preset in the software. Unless I can figure out how this equates to the PWM values in the BIOS.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, even though the CPU intake is a 6.4c variance, perhaps with the new CPU cooler this will drop as it'll move more air?


I gave up on SIV and moved on to SpeedFan. There is a little learning curve but once you sort the details out it has excellent control of each fan and you can choose which temp sensor and value does what to which fan.

I have the same Mobo as you do, GA Z97X Gaming 5 in my Daily Driver and all the fans are (finally) under software control with custom curves based on the max of CPU cores or GPU cores. It took a little tinkering but I'm really happy with it at this point.

You might read this thread for how some have setup SIV. I posted a link to the middle of the thread because it started as a rant and morphed into ways to work around Gigabyte's software.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1507050/warning-gigabyte-isn-t-offering-any-fan-control-anymore-z87-z97/150_30#post_24360878

here is a key tip for speedfan to work on that board.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1507050/warning-gigabyte-isn-t-offering-any-fan-control-anymore-z87-z97/210_30#post_25604157


----------



## Melcar

Yeah, avoid GBs software. It's a nightmare even when it works correctly. Speedfan is much better. Just take the time to learn it (it takes some trial and error).


----------



## Drift Monkey

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Much better temps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect raising case some will lower GPU temps another 2-5c .. depending on GPU fan speed changes.
> 
> Do you have any arisol spray can caps around? Like from spray paint cans or similar .. they are much bigger.


Just with he single layer bottle caps I was seeing a significant temp drop under load for both the CPU and the CPU. Neither exceeded 55C (or so) while gaming after lifting.

I now present to you...v2.0 of my bottle cap lifts.













So ghetto!







I have over 1.75" (~4.5cm) worth of lift now. I can feel the bottom intake drawing in much more air now when I slide my hand under the case. Further logging will reveal how much more cooling I've gained.

Edit: gamed for a bit and my CPU temp reached a max of 50.5C and the GPU 53.0C (this is all with all the filters installed and the front cover on). Needless to say, I'm very impressed with the results of raising the case up a bit, definitely worth the ghetto mod!







I'll let it idle overnight to see what idle temps I get (for fun).

I'm not sure if raising it anymore would yield any better, I figure there has to be a threshold on lifting before the available air to the bottom intake reaches the maximum available amount (diminishing returns that will eventually reach zero).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drift Monkey*
> 
> Just with he single layer bottle caps I was seeing a significant temp drop under load for both the CPU and the CPU. Neither exceeded 55C (or so) while gaming after lifting.
> 
> I now present to you...v2.0 of my bottle cap lifts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So ghetto!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have over 1.75" (~4.5cm) worth of lift now. I can feel the bottom intake drawing in much more air now when I slide my hand under the case. Further logging will reveal how much more cooling I've gained.
> 
> Edit: gamed for a bit and my CPU temp reached a max of 50.5C and the GPU 53.0C (this is all with all the filters installed and the front cover on). Needless to say, I'm very impressed with the results of raising the case up a bit, definitely worth the ghetto mod!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll let it idle overnight to see what idle temps I get (for fun).
> 
> I'm not sure if raising it anymore would yield any better, I figure there has to be a threshold on lifting before the available air to the bottom intake reaches the maximum available amount (diminishing returns that will eventually reach zero).


1.75" is 44mm. Here is explanation of why raising helps
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22657923


----------



## Drift Monkey

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 1.75" is 44mm. Here is explanation of why raising helps
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22657923


Yeah, I used that as a baseline and aimed for 4cm lift. I ended up with a touch over 1.75" so I think 4.5cm is just about what I am sitting at. I should be fine as-is, no? I could pretty easily lift it some more but I suspect it wouldn't make any difference.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drift Monkey*
> 
> Yeah, I used that as a baseline and aimed for 4cm lift. I ended up with a touch over 1.75" so I think 4.5cm is just about what I am sitting at. I should be fine as-is, no? I could pretty easily lift it some more but I suspect it wouldn't make any difference.


When I played around figuring out what worked I found 40 to work just fine.
For ideal fan airflow rule of thumb is clearance matches diameter of fan, but in computers that is not an option. I found having as much airflow area to fan as fan has airflow area works very well. Removing bottom, and back grills makes a significant change too .. lower noise and better airflow best of grills (round wire grills) limit airflow about 16-30%. Punched sheet hexagonal grills normally found in cases limit airflow by 30-50% Round holes are much worse. Supporting data in same link as above.


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> I gave up on SIV and moved on to SpeedFan. There is a little learning curve but once you sort the details out it has excellent control of each fan and you can choose which temp sensor and value does what to which fan.
> 
> I have the same Mobo as you do, GA Z97X Gaming 5 in my Daily Driver and all the fans are (finally) under software control with custom curves based on the max of CPU cores or GPU cores. It took a little tinkering but I'm really happy with it at this point.
> 
> You might read this thread for how some have setup SIV. I posted a link to the middle of the thread because it started as a rant and morphed into ways to work around Gigabyte's software.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1507050/warning-gigabyte-isn-t-offering-any-fan-control-anymore-z87-z97/150_30#post_24360878
> 
> here is a key tip for speedfan to work on that board.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1507050/warning-gigabyte-isn-t-offering-any-fan-control-anymore-z87-z97/210_30#post_25604157


I tried SpeedFan initially but couldn't get it to work, so thanks for the links. I'll dig into them a bit later and play around with it.


----------



## DiceAir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> I tried SpeedFan initially but couldn't get it to work, so thanks for the links. I'll dig into them a bit later and play around with it.


I love speedfan easy the best utility for getting a balance between temps and noise. I have all my fans react to gpu temps even my back cpu fan is spinning up according to gpu temps. Havign to set minimum speed rotation and so on is just simply amazing. My back cpu fan is set to it's minimum starting rotation speed just so that my cpu get that little bit of extra cooling on idle.


----------



## doyll

I tried SpeedFan years ago and didn't like it. It may be better / easier to use now. Guess I need to check it out and see.


----------



## Drift Monkey

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> When I played around figuring out what worked I found 40 to work just fine.
> For ideal fan airflow rule of thumb is clearance matches diameter of fan, but in computers that is not an option. I found having as much airflow area to fan as fan has airflow area works very well. Removing bottom, and back grills makes a significant change too .. lower noise and better airflow best of grills (round wire grills) limit airflow about 16-30%. Punched sheet hexagonal grills normally found in cases limit airflow by 30-50% Round holes are much worse. Supporting data in same link as above.


Yeah...I think I'll keep it at the current height. I guess my next step is to get a cutting wheel for my rotary tool and cut out some grilles.

Even so, already my idle temps also reflect my at load temps after lifting. My CPU showed no difference, reaching a max of 24C (just like before), but my GPU hit a new record of 18C! The changes have certainly helped my GPU temp, and in turn, is also keeping my CPU cooler at load, reducing overall temps. I wonder how much grille cutting will improve - it won't be nearly as dramatic, I'm sure, but every bit counts I suppose!


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> I tried SpeedFan initially but couldn't get it to work, so thanks for the links. I'll dig into them a bit later and play around with it.


below are some screen shots of speedfan from my GA Z97X Gaming 5.

On my Fractal R5 I have I have four Phantek PH-F140SP_BK case fans along with the Cryorig R1 that has Phantek PH-F140HP fans.

*CPU:* Y-cable to two Phantek PH-F140HP PWM fans. Per the Gigabyte thread this is the only PWM header.

The fractal fans were replaced with Phantek PH-F140SP_BK case fans.
*CPU_OPT* Front upper intake
*SYS_FAN1* Exhaust: (PWM5 in speedfan)
*SYS_FAN2* Base intake: ( PWM3 in speedfan
*SYS_FAN3* Front Lower intake : (PWM4 in speedfan )

Edit: correcting which fan is connected where.

(right click on the image, open in new tab to be able to view



edit: replaced the pic. there was a small mistake.

here is a current pic of the system for reference.


I think the key things to make certain is that speedfan is the only thing controlling fan speeds.

If you cannot stop a fan from speedfan, something else is running and fighting with speedfan. This took me a while to understand and I believe it was the "SmartGuardian" setting in speedfan.

Also, using F2 allows you to rename the sensors, or the fans or several other things in speedfan.

@Doyll, you can't see it in this picture but the PCIe blanks are removed AND the base is elevated an extra 5/8 of an inch. Hopefully I get a passing grade on my test


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drift Monkey*
> 
> Yeah...I think I'll keep it at the current height. I guess my next step is to get a cutting wheel for my rotary tool and cut out some grilles.
> 
> Even so, already my idle temps also reflect my at load temps after lifting. My CPU showed no difference, reaching a max of 24C (just like before), but my GPU hit a new record of 18C! The changes have certainly helped my GPU temp, and in turn, is also keeping my CPU cooler at load, reducing overall temps. I wonder how much grille cutting will improve - it won't be nearly as dramatic, I'm sure, but every bit counts I suppose!


You have good cooling. Removing the bottom and back grills will lower the noise a little and improve cooling a little too, but is a couple dB and 2c worth it?

@Dan-H Thanks for the info.
Very nicely done!
Too bad your PSU is too long to put bottom fan in middle, but such is life.


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You have good cooling. Removing the bottom and back grills will lower the noise a little and improve cooling a little too, but is a couple dB and 2c worth it?
> 
> @Dan-H Thanks for the info.
> Very nicely done!
> Too bad your PSU is too long to put bottom fan in middle, but such is life.


Yes that is unfortunate, I'm experimenting with the PSU mounted this way. as part of making it "dead silent". Seasonic rep said if the PSU was mounted vent UP, it was OK to run in hybrid silent mode where the fan doesn't even start until the PSU is under a fair load. I have yet to do temp testing, but I will be putting a temp probe at the intake of the PSU fan to see how cool/warm the intake air is going to the PSU. The workloads of this system are a little lighter recently, and the ambient temp is cooler so super quiet has become more of a possibility. Oh, and it now has no spinners powered up. The 1TB under the optical drive is for a clone backup of the SSD. Daily driver is my system, and it is sitting on a desk adjacent to my monitor so any sounds are more annoying to me.

picture below is one of the "wish it were mine" systems I'm building and the PSU is mounted fan facing down. In that orientation, the connectors do not interfere with a fan in the middle though the cables are in the air stream. This system is on a carpeted the floor so the noise level can be slightly higher and still not audible. And if anyone was wondering where the Fractal fans went that I evicted from my system, worry not they found a new home in this and its twin sister. A todo is to lift it up to get it up off the carpet. I have a couple of ideas and I will post pics once done.



@Doyll, thanks again for the wealth of information in this thread. These systems are a couple of examples of how it can be put to use, and is much appreciated.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> Yes that is unfortunate, I'm experimenting with the PSU mounted this way. as part of making it "dead silent". Seasonic rep said if the PSU was mounted vent UP, it was OK to run in hybrid silent mode where the fan doesn't even start until the PSU is under a fair load. I have yet to do temp testing, but I will be putting a temp probe at the intake of the PSU fan to see how cool/warm the intake air is going to the PSU. The workloads of this system are a little lighter recently, and the ambient temp is cooler so super quiet has become more of a possibility. Oh, and it now has no spinners powered up. The 1TB under the optical drive is for a clone backup of the SSD. Daily driver is my system, and it is sitting on a desk adjacent to my monitor so any sounds are more annoying to me.
> 
> picture below is one of the "wish it were mine" systems I'm building and the PSU is mounted fan facing down. In that orientation, the connectors do not interfere with a fan in the middle though the cables are in the air stream. This system is on a carpeted the floor so the noise level can be slightly higher and still not audible. And if anyone was wondering where the Fractal fans went that I evicted from my system, worry not they found a new home in this and its twin sister. A todo is to lift it up to get it up off the carpet. I have a couple of ideas and I will post pics once done.
> 
> 
> 
> @Doyll, thanks again for the wealth of information in this thread. These systems are a couple of examples of how it can be put to use, and is much appreciated.


I would turn PSU over to draw air from below for a couple of reasons

Case needs more airflow if PSU is drawing air from inside of case.
Drawing air into PSU and GPU from same space like it is they are not only competing for the same air (and more air when working hard), but it can cause airflow into case through the PCIe slots .. with some of that air coming from the PSU exhaust.
The advantage of having bottom intake back / close to PSU is it's intake air is not competing with the lower front intake for a place to go. As it is not they are both trying to put ait into same place .. so it's as restrictive for both as if intake was just in front of PSU with cables blocking it .. but at least the front intake would then not be restricted as much.

While what I have explained above may be a more ideal way (maybe not) it really doesn't matter if system is running cool and quiet and no dust is coming in the back.









Thanks for the thanks.







And it's not all my information. I've only started a thread and put a few posts of my own in. Much of the information is from other sources and from others' experiences.


----------



## mAs81

I removed the ssd tray in my corsair 350D so that I have unrestricted airflow from the front intake fans..I used a 5.25" bracket and now my hdd and bot the ssds are there now..

Here's how it looks. ;


Spoiler: Before









Spoiler: After







It kinda bugs me that the first top exhaust fan is somewhat restricted by the drives, but oh well,I don't have a lot of room in this mAtx case..

When I was making the drive migration tho,I noticed that in the back and next to the pcie brackets, the case's grill was hella dusty..Granted,I don't clean my rig as often as I used to, but do you guys think that this is a case of "airblow"?..Is there anything else I could do to improve airflow to my components??

If its not visible in the pics, my fan placements are like this ;
2 X 140 front intake
2 X 140 top exhaust,
and 2 X 120 push/pull on my H75...fan models can be seen in my sig rig..


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> ...The 1TB under the optical drive is for a clone backup of the SSD...


Installed inside the computer is a bad place to have a backup drive. That leaves it susceptible to damage from a blown power supply (either due to failure of the PSU or a voltage spike or current surge on the mains blowing through the PSU and any surge protection you may have, infection from malware, damage if the computer itself gets damaged or destroyed, such as from being knocked over or from a disaster such as fire, flood, etc. If the computer is stolen, your backup goes with it.

To be reasonably secure, backups need to be connected to a computer only while updating the backup. Other wise, they should be kept disconnected from the computer and stored somewhere away from the computer. Since the contents of the entire house could be stolen or destroyed at the same time, it's also wise to have to backups: one onsite and one offsite. If using a drive for the offsite backup, it should be swapped with the onsite backup as frequently as practical to keep the offsite backup as up to date as possible. Places one could keep an offsite backup drive include a locked desk drawer or locker at work, a safe deposit box at a bank or credit union, or at the home of a relative or trusted friend. A good paid (not free) cloud backup service (not mere cloud storage) can also serve as the offsite backup.

Keep in mind RAID is not a backup, including RAID 1 (mirroring).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mAs81*
> 
> I removed the ssd tray in my corsair 350D so that I have unrestricted airflow from the front intake fans..I used a 5.25" bracket and now my hdd and bot the ssds are there now..
> 
> Here's how it looks. ;
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Before
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: After
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It kinda bugs me that the first top exhaust fan is somewhat restricted by the drives, but oh well,I don't have a lot of room in this mAtx case..
> 
> When I was making the drive migration tho,I noticed that in the back and next to the pcie brackets, the case's grill was hella dusty..Granted,I don't clean my rig as often as I used to, but do you guys think that this is a case of "airblow"?..Is there anything else I could do to improve airflow to my components??
> 
> If its not visible in the pics, my fan placements are like this ;
> 2 X 140 front intake
> 2 X 140 top exhaust,
> and 2 X 120 push/pull on my H75...fan models can be seen in my sig rig..


This is a no brainer.

Intake . . . . . . Exhaust
2x frt 140mm . 2x top 140mm
. . . . . . . . . . . 1x rear 120mm
Air has to come from somewhere for hte 120mm rear radiator .. so it leaks in the points of least resistance.


----------



## mAs81

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> This is a no brainer.
> 
> Intake . . . . . . Exhaust
> 2x frt 140mm . 2x top 140mm
> . . . . . . . . . . . 1x rear 120mm
> Air has to come from somewhere for hte 120mm rear radiator .. so it leaks in the points of least resistance.


Thanks for your swift response once again... So what do you propose? Turning both the top fans as intake? having the rad fans as intake?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mAs81*
> 
> Thanks for your swift response once again... So what do you propose? Turning both the top fans as intake? having the rad fans as intake?


I would try unplugging the top fans and see what your temps do. My guess is they will be about the same as they are now.


----------



## mAs81

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I would try unplugging the top fans and see what your temps do. My guess is they will be about the same as they are now.


I see what you're saying..so that there actually is a flow of air in the case..I have all my fans connected to my fan controller with the minimum being them working at 30%..I'll give it a go under load meaning I'll let them sit @30% and rev the rest up, and l'll try unplugging them too..


----------



## KoolDrew

Just installed my Thermalright True Spirit 140 Power and running the same load as before I'm getting the same temps as my Cooler Master 212+ was, 81C on the hottest core. I've taken it out and remounted it once already and I'll try a second time, but any ideas?


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I would turn PSU over to draw air from below for a couple of reasons
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> [*] Case needs more airflow if PSU is drawing air from inside of case.
> [*] Drawing air into PSU and GPU from same space like it is they are not only competing for the same air (and more air when working hard), but it can cause airflow into case through the PCIe slots .. with some of that air coming from the PSU exhaust.
> 
> The advantage of having bottom intake back / close to PSU is it's intake air is not competing with the lower front intake for a place to go. As it is not they are both trying to put ait into same place .. so it's as restrictive for both as if intake was just in front of PSU with cables blocking it .. but at least the front intake would then not be restricted as much.
> 
> While what I have explained above may be a more ideal way (maybe not) it really doesn't matter if system is running cool and quiet and no dust is coming in the back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it's not all my information. I've only started a thread and put a few posts of my own in. Much of the information is from other sources and from others' experiences.


I agree with everything you wrote. The picture below is the config I have had for the past 15 months, until two weeks ago.



*TL;DR - it is an experiment...*

So here is the story behind all this. Over the past two months, I've had four different PSUs rotating through this system. All were Seasonic X series (golds and platinum). These were pre-purchased on killer sales, all had a rebate and I wanted to make sure they worked before sending in the rebate paperwork and cutting the Serial number off the box. Two weekends ago the original X-650 found its way back and I made a few other improvements.
- removed two of three HDDs
- removed the lower HDD cage
- added 1TB SSD and retained the 500GB SSD
- relocated one HDD to the lower optical drive bay and decided to use it as an offline cloned backup of the Boot SSD.
- swapped out the Fractal case fans for PH-F140SP case fans.
- finally put all the fans under software control.

The result was a really quiet system.

The only things I could barely hear were the Phantek PH-F140HP Fans on the CPU cooler, the fans on the graphics card ( MSI GTX 970 Twin Frozr) and the fan on the Seasonic X-650. These are all really quiet fans but to kick it down a notch I found if I turned the PSU fan off, ( easy, there is a switch ) and set the Graphics card fans to a silent fan curve, off when less than 45C the system was amazingly quiet. So I inverted the PSU ( per Seasonic's install guidance) and set the fan to hybrid fanless mode.

I found if the front case fans were off, or if they were less than 600 RPM the sound was the same so I set all four fans to run really slow at idle. The front intakes ramp up ahead of the others slightly.

So my experiment so far has been a success. I have not performance tested it with both CPU load and GPU load for a long duration. I want to do this to see how warm the intake air is going to PSU when the PSU fan comes on. I also have yet to determine when the PSU fan turns on for this power supply.

As I said, this is an experiment.

I will likely put it back the way it was. When it gets warm again or when the workloads on this system pickup up again. The work I'm doing on is much less taxing than what I was doing before.


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Installed inside the computer is a bad place to have a backup drive.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> That leaves it susceptible to damage from a blown power supply (either due to failure of the PSU or a voltage spike or current surge on the mains blowing through the PSU and any surge protection you may have, infection from malware, damage if the computer itself gets damaged or destroyed, such as from being knocked over or from a disaster such as fire, flood, etc. If the computer is stolen, your backup goes with it.
> 
> To be reasonably secure, backups need to be connected to a computer only while updating the backup. Other wise, they should be kept disconnected from the computer and stored somewhere away from the computer. Since the contents of the entire house could be stolen or destroyed at the same time, it's also wise to have to backups: one onsite and one offsite. If using a drive for the offsite backup, it should be swapped with the onsite backup as frequently as practical to keep the offsite backup as up to date as possible. Places one could keep an offsite backup drive include a locked desk drawer or locker at work, a safe deposit box at a bank or credit union, or at the home of a relative or trusted friend. A good paid (not free) cloud backup service (not mere cloud storage) can also serve as the offsite backup.
> 
> Keep in mind RAID is not a backup, including RAID 1 (mirroring).


Thanks for the comments.

The cloned boot drive is just one piece of my overall backup strategy and this location is perfect for the intended use. If it were the only backup I had, then I would agree with you.

The HDD has a full clone of my boot drive with all my programs and local data. It is typically refreshed every couple of months. The sole purpose is a safety net to protect against a blown windows update or possibly an SSD hardware failure. For this alone I'll invest $40 to have this on a spare hard drive, and power it down and unplug it for a few months. If I had an SSD failure, I'd be OK going back to a two month old copy of my system, and I could be up and running in minutes..

And, as I said, this is just one piece of my backup strategy. Data I care about is backed up offsite so in case of fire or theft I know my data is preserved.


----------



## KoolDrew

Well I went ahead and remounted the heatsink, tightened the mounting a bit more in hopes for temps to drop, but no luck. Right now I'm actually getting slightly worse temps than before and worse than my 212+ was giving me.

Here's some pics of the results, mounting, TIM application, etc. to see if you guys can spot anything. Not sure what's going on. Ambient temp was 23.2c and CPU intake was 29.8c. [email protected] was running as well as Furmark during the load test.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## mAs81

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mAs81*
> 
> I'll give it a go under load meaning I'll let them sit @30% and rev the rest up, and l'll try unplugging them too..


I did just that and I actually had a couple degrees better cooling on the cpu..I did not try unplugging them yet tho


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> Well I went ahead and remounted the heatsink, tightened the mounting a bit more in hopes for temps to drop, but no luck. Right now I'm actually getting slightly worse temps than before and worse than my 212+ was giving me.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Here's some pics of the results, mounting, TIM application, etc. to see if you guys can spot anything. Not sure what's going on. Ambient temp was 23.2c and CPU intake was 29.8c. [email protected] was running as well as Furmark during the load test.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


are you running adaptive voltage?

while the system is under load, can you take and post a screenshot of HWiNFO64 showing all the info from the Motherboard sensor? The sensor is the ITE-IT8620E

curious if this is more than a CPU cooler issue.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> Well I went ahead and remounted the heatsink, tightened the mounting a bit more in hopes for temps to drop, but no luck. Right now I'm actually getting slightly worse temps than before and worse than my 212+ was giving me.
> 
> Here's some pics of the results, mounting, TIM application, etc. to see if you guys can spot anything. Not sure what's going on. Ambient temp was 23.2c and CPU intake was 29.8c. [email protected] was running as well as Furmark during the load test.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Everything looks good. Looks like a bigger TIM dob than I normally use, hard to tell in image. We want TIM to only fill voids in metal surfaces with metal to metal as much as possilbe .. this is usually a round print almost to edges of CPU IHS.

More info in link below
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22335323

This is a strange one.








What temp is the airflow going into cooler?
Are you sure your delid is getting a good TIM seat?
But I still thing we should be seeing lower temps now than with 212.








TRUE Spirit 140 Power give same performance as other TRUE Sprint 140 coolers at normal loads (<160watt) .. which is easily 3-4 degrees better with lower noise than 212 38db vs 42db) Where it shows it's colors is under extreme load .. it just keeps on cooling!


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> [/SPOILER]
> 
> are you running adaptive voltage?
> 
> while the system is under load, can you take and post a screenshot of HWiNFO64 showing all the info from the Motherboard sensor? The sensor is the ITE-IT8620E
> 
> curious if this is more than a CPU cooler issue.


Looks like voltages are staying stable. The only thing I noticed is HWiNFO64 is showing a max CPU temp of 75c when RealTemp shows a max of 86c during the same test. Which one is accurate?


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Everything looks good. Looks like a bigger TIM dob than I normally use, hard to tell in image. We want TIM to only fill voids in metal surfaces with metal to metal as much as possilbe .. this is usually a round print almost to edges of CPU IHS.
> 
> More info in link below
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22335323
> 
> This is a strange one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What temp is the airflow going into cooler?
> Are you sure your delid is getting a good TIM seat?
> But still I would expect some difference in cooling.


Ambient temp was 23.2c and temp going into the cooler was 29.8c. I can remount it again with even less thermal paste, but I don't think what I applied was too much based on the pictures in your link. Also, as you said, I'd still imagine it'd only make a couple degree difference so I'd still expect a difference from the 212+. My chip isn't delidded, is it possible that the IHS just isn't making good contact and further temp decreases would require a delid?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> Looks like voltages are staying stable. The only thing I noticed is HWiNFO64 is showing a max CPU temp of 75c when RealTemp shows a max of 86c during the same test. Which one is accurate?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ambient temp was 23.2c and temp going into the cooler was 29.8c. I can remount it again with even less thermal paste, but I don't think what I applied was too much based on the pictures in your link. Also, as you said, I'd still imagine it'd only make a couple degree difference so I'd still expect a difference from the 212+. My chip isn't delidded, is it possible that the IHS just isn't making good contact and further temp decreases would require a delid?


Sorry, I knew your temps.








Probably not too much TIM.
On an i7-920 @ 4.3 GZ we got 54.2c delta / TY-143 @ 1200rpm.. You have 83c and 29.8 for a delta of 53.2c
At 2500rpm we had 45.8c

What fans did you run on your 212?


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> Looks like voltages are staying stable. The only thing I noticed is HWiNFO64 is showing a max CPU temp of 75c when RealTemp shows a max of 86c during the same test. Which one is accurate?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


HWiNFO64 will show all the sensors. I tend to look at the CPU core temps and the CPU package temps being reported from the CPU.

Screenshot showing voltages on my system. same board, 4790K at 4.7 is below. Voltages on yours are a little higher and that could be enough to push the temps up.

Vcore on mine is 1.320 vs 1.356 on yours.
CPU VRIN on mine 1.836 vs 1.956

Screenshot on my board is cutoff and I can't see the other voltages. I can look later.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







I'm wondering if your cooling is OK and perhaps you are pushing the voltage up beyond what the cooler can handle.


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, I knew your temps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not too much TIM.
> On an i7-920 @ 4.3 GZ we got 54.2c delta / TY-143 @ 1200rpm.. You have 83c and 29.8 for a delta of 53.2c
> At 2500rpm we had 45.8c
> 
> What fans did you run on your 212?


I used whatever the stock fan on the 212 was.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dan-H*
> 
> HWiNFO64 will show all the sensors. I tend to look at the CPU core temps and the CPU package temps being reported from the CPU.
> 
> Screenshot showing voltages on my system. same board, 4790K at 4.7 is below. Voltages on yours are a little higher and that could be enough to push the temps up.
> 
> Vcore on mine is 1.320 vs 1.356 on yours.
> CPU VRIN on mine 1.836 vs 1.956
> 
> Screenshot on my board is cutoff and I can't see the other voltages. I can look later.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if your cooling is OK and perhaps you are pushing the voltage up beyond what the cooler can handle.


Yea, it is possible I'm pushing the voltage a bit too much. I was hoping upgrading from the 212+ would help a bit though. I was trying to avoid lowering the voltage and overclock.


----------



## Dan-H

@Kooldrew, I meant to add I only ran a quick run of Cinebench to check the voltages and was not intending to compare your temps with my temps. Other stress tool like P95 or realbench push the system harder and it runs hotter.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> I used whatever the stock fan on the 212 was.
> Yea, it is possible I'm pushing the voltage a bit too much. I was hoping upgrading from the 212+ would help a bit though. I was trying to avoid lowering the voltage and overclock.


Thanks.
The TRUE Spirit 140 Power works it's best under very heavy loads. I my testing that was 80-88c range at extreme (to me) overclocking. My guess is the 8mm pipes vs 6mm pipes move more vapor from base out into fins and also wick more liquid back to base .. and this is best utilized at extreme load / heat. If you want more cooling, higher performance fans will should significantly improve cooling because of more airflow. Problem is that case must also have similar increase in airflow volume to match cooler's flow. ;(


----------



## Arengeta

Hello doyll,

I'm buying 2 92mm fans for my Noctua NH-D9L tomorrow because I do not like the electrical humming noise from the stock Noctua 92mm fan. I would like to have your opinion on what would be best placement:
1. Middle fan and back fan on heatsink.
2. Front fan (where RAM is) and middle fan.

My current setup is like this, however I have removed the exhaust fan and it has lowered the temps slightly (by around 4-5C idle and under load). Also would you advise using 1 intake fan or 2 intake fans (as it is now)?


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Thanks.
> The TRUE Spirit 140 Power works it's best under very heavy loads. I my testing that was 80-88c range at extreme (to me) overclocking. My guess is the 8mm pipes vs 6mm pipes move more vapor from base out into fins and also wick more liquid back to base .. and this is best utilized at extreme load / heat. If you want more cooling, higher performance fans will should significantly improve cooling because of more airflow. Problem is that case must also have similar increase in airflow volume to match cooler's flow. ;(


I imagine the trade-off for higher performance fans would be cost and increased noise? Given I'm stable at 4.5GHz w/ only 1.251v I think I might just keep it there. Some quick testing at this voltage is showing 75c, so about an 11c drop from 1.356v.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> Hello doyll,
> 
> I'm buying 2 92mm fans for my Noctua NH-D9L tomorrow because I do not like the electrical humming noise from the stock Noctua 92mm fan. I would like to have your opinion on what would be best placement:
> 1. Middle fan and back fan on heatsink.
> 2. Front fan (where RAM is) and middle fan.
> 
> My current setup is like this, however I have removed the exhaust fan and it has lowered the temps slightly (by around 4-5C idle and under load). Also would you advise using 1 intake fan or 2 intake fans (as it is now)?


Sorry, I don't know of any 92mm fan that is quieter then Noc fans on NH-D9L
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> I imagine the trade-off for higher performance fans would be cost and increased noise? Given I'm stable at 4.5GHz w/ only 1.251v I think I might just keep it there. Some quick testing at this voltage is showing 75c, so about an 11c drop from 1.356v.


How often is your system running at full load? My 920 almost never runs full load, even when encoding at normal levels Most of my CPU intensive work is now done on i7 980 and the extra 2 cores / 4 threads help keep load levels from peaking as high. Only if I set the encode software so it used all available resources and ran 2 encodes at same time it would push CPU to 100% all cores would fans at or near full speed. If CPU is 80c @ 1300rpm and 70c @ 2500, it's aobut 75c @ 1900rpm

Here are the dbA levels of two TY-143 fans on PH-TC14PE at 1 meter on open bench. These fans have been on this system 24/7 for about 20 months now.
1100rpm = 31dBA
1300rpm = 34.5dBA
1550rpm = 36dBA
1700rpm = 39dBA
2000rpm = 41dBA
2200rpm = 45dBA
2420rpm = 46dBA
30dBA is about the level of a quiet bedroom late at night. At present you should have about 34dBA @ 1300rpm .. loud enough you can hear it and know system is working hard. Most people find 39-41dBA as loud a fan as they want to listen to.


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, I don't know of any 92mm fan that is quieter then Noc fans on NH-D9L


I need advice on how to organise the airflow inside the case







How do you think it will be best to organise for optimal cooling?
I'll buy Arctic Cooling F9 PWM for test in the beginning, if I will not like it then my next choice is Nexus Real Silent Case fan 92mm.


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> How often is your system running at full load? My 920 almost never runs full load, even when encoding at normal levels Most of my CPU intensive work is now done on i7 980 and the extra 2 cores / 4 threads help keep load levels from peaking as high. Only if I set the encode software so it used all available resources and ran 2 encodes at same time it would push CPU to 100% all cores would fans at or near full speed. If CPU is 80c @ 1300rpm and 70c @ 2500, it's aobut 75c @ 1900rpm
> 
> Here are the dbA levels of two TY-143 fans on PH-TC14PE at 1 meter on open bench. These fans have been on this system 24/7 for about 20 months now.
> 1100rpm = 31dBA
> 1300rpm = 34.5dBA
> 1550rpm = 36dBA
> 1700rpm = 39dBA
> 2000rpm = 41dBA
> 2200rpm = 45dBA
> 2420rpm = 46dBA
> 30dBA is about the level of a quiet bedroom late at night. At present you should have about 34dBA @ 1300rpm .. loud enough you can hear it and know system is working hard. Most people find 39-41dBA as loud a fan as they want to listen to.


Thanks for the data. I'm at full load 24/7 folding which is why I think the lower overclock / voltage might be the way to go. I'm currently only folding on the CPU though. In the future might be both or just the GPU. The fans currently running full speed and are not unbearable, but I don't think I'd want them much louder 24/7. I've been messing with SpeedFan and this is the default fan curve. Since my temps are generally hovering in the mid-to-high 60s this means they are running at full speed 24/7. Any issues with this?



@Dan-H Do you mind sharing your fan curve? Thanks a ton for the info you shared earlier as well. I was able to get SpeedFan up and running just based off your screenshots alone.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> I need advice on how to organise the airflow inside the case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you think it will be best to organise for optimal cooling?
> I'll buy Arctic Cooling F9 PWM for test in the beginning, if I will not like it then my next choice is Nexus Real Silent Case fan 92mm.


Sorry, have you rad the 5th post in this thread? It explains case airflow and how to set it up.

Arctic F9 are about the only 90mm fan I've used.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> Thanks for the data. I'm at full load 24/7 folding which is why I think the lower overclock / voltage might be the way to go. I'm currently only folding on the CPU though. In the future might be both or just the GPU. The fans currently running full speed and are not unbearable, but I don't think I'd want them much louder 24/7. I've been messing with SpeedFan and this is the default fan curve. Since my temps are generally hovering in the mid-to-high 60s this means they are running at full speed 24/7. Any issues with this?


I agree. For me I want TY-14x fans running at or below 1050 rpm. I can just bearly hear them at 1050.

Temps look good, what is fan speed @ 100%?


----------



## KoolDrew

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I agree. For me I want TY-14x fans running at or below 1050 rpm. I can just bearly hear them at 1050.
> 
> Temps look good, what is fan speed @ 100%?


CPU - 1400 RPM
Front Intake bottom - 1250 RPM
Front Intake top - 1274 RPM


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I agree. For me I want TY-14x fans running at or below 1050 rpm. I can just bearly hear them at 1050.
> 
> Temps look good, what is fan speed @ 100%?


Hi mate,

Very nice thread.

Next week I will probably upgrade to watercooling, and made a plan for my next cooling configuration.
If you've got timeI would appreciate very much if you would have a look at it and tell me what you think and share some idea's?

My plan is as follows:

(if it fits in my case, with the RAM and mobo) ill get the Corsair H115i
If this cooler fits I plan to swap the stock fans with either 2x Corsair ML140 Pro led fans, or 2x Noctua nf-a14-industrialppc-2000-pwm fans for more silence.

I haven't made a final decision which of these two I will use to replace the stock fans with, but im leaning more towards the ML140 pro's since they look very good and from what I have read perform well on radiators aswell, and I dont mind spending the extra cash.

Also I want to replace the rest of my case fans (Aerocool Sharks Devil Red Edition 120/140mm)

Here's how I want to place them:

Depending on if its posible to use 3 front intake fans in my CM Storm Stryker case I would do:

3x Corsair ML120 Pro led fans as intake
2x Corsair ML140 Pro led fans onto the radiator. (Or would some noctua NFA14 industrial 2000rpm PWM fans be better for the rad)?
and 1x Corsair ML140mm in the rear as exhaust.

I looked at post 5 on the thread and hope I am doing this correct, but its definetly not yet a correct complete calculation:

The 120mm ML pro's are rated 75 CFM at full speed (x3 = 225 CFM intake airflow would this potentially give me.
The 140mm ML pro's are rated 97 CFM at full speed (x3) = 291 CFM Exhaust airflow this would potentially give me.

But this is without taking into account that there's the dustfilter, on the front of my case, some unneeded drive bays (which I will remove as much as possible).

And most important I think to take into account is that I would try to keep most of the fans at around 50-60% of their max speed

I would like to try to keep my system as quiet as possible for normal use (gaming, study for school and such).
So ill use corsair link to change the radiator fans (plus the other fans if possible) or else via my mobo.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to try to describe as much as possible about what I would like to do.

Personally im thinking it could work out well and look really nice.
But I dont feel confident to just do this and thats why I would appreciate any feedback/idea's very much









By the way, you can find some pictures of how my system is looking right now on my profile.

Thanks:thumb:


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> Hi mate,
> 
> Very nice thread.
> 
> Next week I will probably upgrade to watercooling, and made a plan for my next cooling configuration.
> If you've got timeI would appreciate very much if you would have a look at it and tell me what you think and share some idea's?
> 
> My plan is as follows:
> 
> (if it fits in my case, with the RAM and mobo) ill get the Corsair H115i
> If this cooler fits I plan to swap the stock fans with either 2x Corsair ML140 Pro led fans, or 2x Noctua nf-a14-industrialppc-2000-pwm fans for more silence.
> 
> I haven't made a final decision which of these two I will use to replace the stock fans with, but im leaning more towards the ML140 pro's since they look very good and from what I have read perform well on radiators aswell, and I dont mind spending the extra cash.
> 
> Also I want to replace the rest of my case fans (Aerocool Sharks Devil Red Edition 120/140mm)
> 
> Here's how I want to place them:
> 
> Depending on if its posible to use 3 front intake fans in my CM Storm Stryker case I would do:
> 
> 3x Corsair ML120 Pro led fans as intake
> 2x Corsair ML140 Pro led fans onto the radiator. (Or would some noctua NFA14 industrial 2000rpm PWM fans be better for the rad)?
> and 1x Corsair ML140mm in the rear as exhaust.
> 
> I looked at post 5 on the thread and hope I am doing this correct, but its definetly not yet a correct complete calculation:
> 
> The 120mm ML pro's are rated 75 CFM at full speed (x3 = 225 CFM intake airflow would this potentially give me.
> The 140mm ML pro's are rated 97 CFM at full speed (x3) = 291 CFM Exhaust airflow this would potentially give me.
> 
> But this is without taking into account that there's the dustfilter, on the front of my case, some unneeded drive bays (which I will remove as much as possible).
> 
> And most important I think to take into account is that I would try to keep most of the fans at around 50-60% of their max speed
> 
> I would like to try to keep my system as quiet as possible for normal use (gaming, study for school and such).
> So ill use corsair link to change the radiator fans (plus the other fans if possible) or else via my mobo.
> 
> Sorry for the long post, just wanted to try to describe as much as possible about what I would like to do.
> 
> Personally im thinking it could work out well and look really nice.
> But I dont feel confident to just do this and thats why I would appreciate any feedback/idea's very much
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, you can find some pictures of how my system is looking right now on my profile.
> 
> Thanks:thumb:


I saw 'H115i' and had to stop, backup, and take several deep breathes before I can low the temperture back to bright red instead molten yellow.
IF YOU WANT TO USE H115 AND OTHER corsiar PRODUCTS, DON'T BOTHER ASKING ME FOR ADVICE!
My experiences with them have been bad about 90% of the time.

Edit: Just looked at you profile pics. You have one of the best CPU cooler ever made. Why waste money on a CLC? They are the worst cooling option their is!!

ML 140 are not getting very good press. I've seem several people having noise and ticking problems. Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 2000 are a good fan, but are industrial fans so not as quiet at low rpm as many others, and unless you are in Canada there are probably fans just as good for less money.

Stryker has all kinds of CPU clearance and there are many air coolers that cool almost as good as H115 at 1/4th noise .. add high speed fans that are as noisy as H115 and they are several degrees cooler. Unless you are going to use a water cooler GPU it is not practical to use water on CPU. Almost all GPUs make more heat than CPUs and dump it all over in the case .. while tower CPU coolers fow air front to back.

If you didn't already have the Stryker, I would suggest e better one.
A few things I don't like about Stryker are

PSU filter pulls out back. This means to clean PSU filter case has to be pulled away from wall to access the filter. Some very nice cases as similar price have a full length bottom filter that pulls out the front .. and others have ones easily adapted to front removal.
Back of case has only the single fan vent and no other venting. I prefer cases with almost the entire back being vented.
With a few mods we can get the Stryker to flow a decent amount of air.








Even better airflow if you are willing to modify the back by cutting more venting in.









We need to guess at what case airflow will be. I assume you want it to run cool and quiet, which means 1300-1800rpm fans running at or below about 1000rpm 95% of the time. Dust filters and intake vents will lower airlfow by about 50% at that speed .. 50% of what fan will flow at that speed with no grill or filter on it.

We definitely want filters on all intake fans and we want more intake fan flow then exhaust fan flow. This way there is a little filtered air pushing out of other case vents and holes to balance the case airlfow rather than pulling dusty air in.


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I saw 'H115i' and had to stop, backup, and take several deep breathes before I can low the temperture back to bright red instead molten yellow.
> IF YOU WANT TO USE H115 AND OTHER corsiar PRODUCTS, DON'T BOTHER ASKING ME FOR ADVICE!
> My experiences with them have been bad about 90% of the time.
> 
> Edit: Just looked at you profile pics. You have one of the best CPU cooler ever made. Why waste money on a CLC? They are the worst cooling option their is!!
> 
> ML 140 are not getting very good press. I've seem several people having noise and ticking problems. Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 2000 are a good fan, but are industrial fans so not as quiet at low rpm as many others, and unless you are in Canada there are probably fans just as good for less money.
> 
> Stryker has all kinds of CPU clearance and there are many air coolers that cool almost as good as H115 at 1/4th noise .. add high speed fans that are as noisy as H115 and they are several degrees cooler. Unless you are going to use a water cooler GPU it is not practical to use water on CPU. Almost all GPUs make more heat than CPUs and dump it all over in the case .. while tower CPU coolers fow air front to back.
> 
> If you didn't already have the Stryker, I would suggest e better one.
> A few things I don't like about Stryker are
> 
> PSU filter pulls out back. This means to clean PSU filter case has to be pulled away from wall to access the filter. Some very nice cases as similar price have a full length bottom filter that pulls out the front .. and others have ones easily adapted to front removal.
> Back of case has only the single fan vent and no other venting. I prefer cases with almost the entire back being vented.
> With a few mods we can get the Stryker to flow a decent amount of air.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even better airflow if you are willing to modify the back by cutting more venting in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We need to guess at what case airflow will be. I assume you want it to run cool and quiet, which means 1300-1800rpm fans running at or below about 1000rpm 95% of the time. Dust filters and intake vents will lower airlfow by about 50% at that speed .. 50% of what fan will flow at that speed with no grill or filter on it.
> 
> We definitely want filters on all intake fans and we want more intake fan flow then exhaust fan flow. This way there is a little filtered air pushing out of other case vents and holes to balance the case airlfow rather than pulling dusty air in.


Thanks for the respond.

I probably should have mentioned the reasons why I decided to switch to watercooling.

The Noctua NH-D15 definetly is great. But its also very big.....

1. Right now my gpu is in the PCI-E x8 slot because the huge cooler is just slightly to big to allow enough clearance to the x16 slot.

2. The second reason for me to want watercooling is to have a cleaner looking build.

I know CLC's are about the same or even slightly worse performance wise sometimes indeed.

The points you are making are all solid. But preferences between performance/noise/aestethics differ per person ofcourse.

Airflow in this case seems good, but I am running my front intake fans at lowest setting of the fancontroller because its too loud for me at the highest setting.

I dont know if itts something with the controller or the fans... but I want to try some other fans anyway to compare, and they need to be led fans.

Thanks anyway for responding.

Not really a kind of answer I hoped for, but still useful.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> Thanks for the respond.
> 
> I probably should have mentioned the reasons why I decided to switch to watercooling.
> 
> The Noctua NH-D15 definetly is great. But its also very big.....
> 
> 1. Right now my gpu is in the PCI-E x8 slot because the huge cooler is just slightly to big to allow enough clearance to the x16 slot.
> 
> 2. The second reason for me to want watercooling is to have a cleaner looking build.
> 
> I know CLC's are about the same or even slightly worse performance wise sometimes indeed.
> 
> The points you are making are all solid. But preferences between performance/noise/aestethics differ per person ofcourse.
> 
> Airflow in this case seems good, but I am running my front intake fans at lowest setting of the fancontroller because its too loud for me at the highest setting.
> 
> I dont know if itts something with the controller or the fans... but I want to try some other fans anyway to compare, and they need to be led fans.
> 
> Thanks anyway for responding.
> 
> Not really a kind of answer I hoped for, but still useful.


You are confusing the general terms 'CLC' and 'water cooling'. While CLCs do emply the concept of 'water cooling' they do not perform like a AIO that is not a CLC or a component H2O system.

The H115i /H115GT, etc make significantly more noise .. many times more noise .. than a good air cooler like your NF-D15. CLCs are marketed with hype .. using the term 'water cooling' with no reference to their actual cooling to noise ratio. Many tests/reviews use the CLC as an intake so it's intake air is at room temp (which heats the inside of case significantly) rather than exhausting from case (which often helps cool other components by increasing case airflow).

The problem with CLCs is they are made at the lowest cost possible. They were originally called LCLC when filing for patent .. for Low Cost Liquid Cooler. They have cheap aluminum radiators which require very high fin density and very high airflow to cool properly. This mean their fans are very noisy. They use cheap low powered pumps with motors that often use less power than a low speed fan .. and move just barely enough coolant to keep high wattage CPUs cool. All components are factory assembled to not be taken apart so there is no way to replace a failing component .. and no way to add coolant when needed. If the pump does fail (most common reason for CLC problems) your CPU has no cooling at all until you put a new cooler on .. expensive to do. Now with an air cooler the only thing that can fail is the fan/s, which usually start making noise before the quit working so we know they need replaced, and system will almost always work at low load . and any fan will work until suitable replacement arrives .. low cost fix.

We see very few cooler tests/reviews that use the temperature of air going into them to determine the CPU delta temperature. What they most often do is use a complete system in a case (sometimes with GPU) and simply monitor room temperature. The problem with this is the room temperature and the cooler intake are radically different .. at least 2-5c warmer even in a case with well tuned airflow. But you read 5th post here so should understand that.

Your problem is one many have with the NH-D15, it is 77mm center CPU toward PCIe sockets.

There are several air coolers that will clear PCIe sockets, like NH-D15S, Cryorig R1, Phanteks PH-TC14PE, Silver Arrow IB-E, and others with same cooling and noise levels do not protrude toward PCIE sockets as far.

If you want a 'water cooling' system that is of acceptable quality equal to top air cooler in cooling and noise, look at the be quiet! Silent Loop series or Swiftech H240 / H280 / H320 X2 or X2 Prestige. If you are in USA you cannot get the be quiet! Silent Loop series.


----------



## LostParticle

Hey @QuacK, *have a look at these*, if you please, might suit you for your chassis, good luck!


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> Thanks for the respond.
> 
> I probably should have mentioned the reasons why I decided to switch to watercooling.
> 
> The Noctua NH-D15 definetly is great. But its also very big.....
> 
> 1. Right now my gpu is in the PCI-E x8 slot because the huge cooler is just slightly to big to allow enough clearance to the x16 slot.
> 
> 2. The second reason for me to want watercooling is to have a cleaner looking build.
> 
> I know CLC's are about the same or even slightly worse performance wise sometimes indeed.
> 
> The points you are making are all solid. But preferences between performance/noise/aestethics differ per person ofcourse.
> 
> Airflow in this case seems good, but I am running my front intake fans at lowest setting of the fancontroller because its too loud for me at the highest setting.
> 
> I dont know if itts something with the controller or the fans... but I want to try some other fans anyway to compare, and they need to be led fans.
> 
> Thanks anyway for responding.
> 
> Not really a kind of answer I hoped for, but still useful.


Hi there

I've run or tried Corsair Hydro series on my few systems(PC) like i7-4790k or i7-5820k,on i7-4790k I've run 4.6GHz and tried to run 4.7GHz but I just couldn't as my temps has been very high,my temps has been in 80's under heavy load and I just lowered clocks to 4.6GHz and still temps has been in high 70's in RealBench

Then I switched to i7-5820k and OC to 4.4GHz which has been max what I could run at reasonable temps 73C in rendering,then I swapped H100i v2 to NH-D15 and my temps has been in 65C under heavy load in rendering

Here is my older thread where I've compared H100i v2 vs NH-D15

http://www.overclock.net/t/1610396/noctua-nh-d15-vs-corsair-h100i-v2-my-comparison-and-my-little-test/10

Yes I would agree,NH-D15 is big and can cause issues with PCIE slots,but on my X99 I could fit in first slot GPU and can run GPU at x16,difference between x8 and x16 is marginal,if you can check few threads on this matter

Regarding the cleaner look,really depends,I personally loved to have NH-D15,just I have issues with running multiple GPU,one has been GTX1080 and second GPU is Titan X with oversized Rajinitek Morpheus II which will take 4 slots easily and due this I switched to custom water loop as I could finally cool my GPU by water and if my temps are better on CPU,under rendering my temps are right now around 60-62C and in OCCT or RealBench my temps are under 70's which I like,if its worth there,I would say you need to decide there

But GPU temps in Octane or any other renderer are in 38-40C,my GTX 1080 has run 78-82C,my Titan X has run 44-48C as max which has been great

If you are looking at CLC,then I would have look on BeQuiet,Alphacool or Swiftech or EK Predator series,but still think I would stick with good air cooler there









Regarding yours case,have owned CoolerMaster Stryker for while and if I've been happy,no really,my temps has been bit higher than I would like it and if I would go with good case I would check Phanteks cases there

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura


----------



## QuacK

I think im asking this in the wrong thread to the wrong people.

No offence to you all. I understand the points you guys are making.
And iim aware that I might get a performance hit and more noisy with the H115 compared to Noctua NH-D15
Ill ask my question in corsair hydro thread, is probably best


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Hey @QuacK, *have a look at these*, if you please, might suit you for your chassis, good luck!


On the right track, concerning my question lol. But static pressure is too low I think.

Its hard to find the best fan to suite moste of your needs


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> On the right track, concerning my question lol. But static pressure is too low I think.
> 
> Its hard to find the best fan to suite moste of your needs


Are you sure that those fans I have suggested you, either the 120 mm or the 140 mm, are not suitable as chassis fans for you?


----------



## QuacK

I probably should have asked this in the corsair hydro series thread.

What I initially was wondering about, and wanted to ask your thoughts about, is whether you had any idea bout ifs between two specific fans.
The AF14 indrustial 2000RPM fans or the Corsair ML fans would be best to replace the H115i fans.

I didn't ask for other coolers/ cases or anything else. Looking back, I think the setup of how I wrote my first post here was probably bad/unclear for you guys.

Now I respect that you had bad experiences with corsair, sorry about that, but im simply not interested in a different air cooler or case, because getting a better looking rig, is more important to me than getting the highest performance. Im just hoping the performance wont be totally terrible, but you can have a laugh if it will... and its all fine. I didnt want to come here to ignore your advice, but the advice was just something that simply doesn't suite me although im sure you are right that if I wanted to, I could get a similar or better performing aircooler compared to the H115i.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> ...
> 
> What I initially was wondering about, and wanted to ask your thoughts about, is whether you had any idea bout ifs between two specific fans.
> The AF14 indrustial 2000RPM fans or the Corsair ML fans would be best to replace the H115i fans.
> 
> ...


I'd go for the Industrial Noctuas, already own them. The logic is that you can always run them at 800 - 1000 RPM and max them when you need to.

Your initial *post* gave (gives) me the impression that you might be looking for chassis fans, too. If so, have a look at the Alpenfoehn, 2 x 120 front, 1 x 140 rear, that I've suggested you earlier.

Hope this helps you


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> I probably should have asked this in the corsair hydro series thread.
> 
> What I initially was wondering about, and wanted to ask your thoughts about, is whether you had any idea bout ifs between two specific fans.
> The AF14 indrustial 2000RPM fans or the Corsair ML fans would be best to replace the H115i fans.
> 
> I didn't ask for other coolers/ cases or anything else. Looking back, I think the setup of how I wrote my first post here was probably bad/unclear for you guys.
> 
> Now I respect that you had bad experiences with corsair, sorry about that, but im simply not interested in a different air cooler or case, because getting a better looking rig, is more important to me than getting the highest performance. Im just hoping the performance wont be totally terrible, but you can have a laugh if it will... and its all fine. I didnt want to come here to ignore your advice, but the advice was just something that simply doesn't suite me although im sure you are right that if I wanted to, I could get a similar or better performing aircooler compared to the H115i.


While the ML 120 seem to be good, I have seem several people complaining about ml 140 .. things like blade vibration, balance issues, ticking, etc.

As for the H115 it is a very loud at same temps many air coolers at same temps. CLCs are simply not even close to as good as they are cracked up to be. Most of the people who claim CLCs are good have no experience with quality coolers,either air or water. The change their stock air cooler to a CLC as intake and 'are amazed at how well it cools' when the problems they had before were because of poor case airflow and / or too small/ low performance cooler.


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> While the ML 120 seem to be good, I have seem several people complaining about ml 140 .. things like blade vibration, balance issues, ticking, etc.
> 
> As for the H115 it is a very loud at same temps many air coolers at same temps. CLCs are simply not even close to as good as they are cracked up to be. Most of the people who claim CLCs are good have no experience with quality coolers,either air or water. The change their stock air cooler to a CLC as intake and 'are amazed at how well it cools' when the problems they had before were because of poor case airflow and / or too small/ low performance cooler.


It just feels goof to me, i just have to try and play with it and see where I end.

If it doesn't work out well ill happily take my loss and move on.

I did learn some nice and handy tips from your thread like the temp monitoring in the case ill definetly start doing that soon too.

Regardless of how it will work out....

Thanks for your time.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> ...
> 
> If it doesn't work out well ill happily take my loss and move on.
> 
> ...


You can always test it for a weekend and return it on Monday, or within 14 calendar days, if I recall correctly. _Consult shop's returning policy before the purchase._ You might lose a percentage of the initial cost but it is the price of testing. I did that twice: once with a pair of NF F12 industrialPPC-2000 PWM which I thought would be great for my chassis but they were making a very disturbing noise even from 1100 RPM. I returned them the next day and got a full refund. The second time was with an AMD FX-8350 which proven to be a complete dud. I returned it after two days losing 25% of the purchasing price. In both cases I purchased another product from the respective shop.


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> You can always test it for a weekend and return it on Monday, or within 14 calendar days, if I recall correctly. _Consult shop's returning policy before the purchase._ You might lose a percentage of the initial cost but it is the price of testing. I did that twice: once with a pair of NF F12 industrialPPC-2000 PWM which I thought would be great for my chassis but they were making a very disturbing noise even from 1100 RPM. I returned them the next day and got a full refund. The second time was with an AMD FX-8350 which proven to be a complete dud. I returned it after two days losing 25% of the purchasing price. In both cases I purchased another product from the respective shop.


Yeah, For casefans they seem to be what could just suit my needs with their awesome looks and wide rpm ranges when connected with PWM.

For radiator I think they might be less effective, but there's no harm in just trying to see how they hold up with my OC profiles.

If performance as radiator fans is below my needs I will probably try noctuas A14 industrial 2000RPM PWM.

On a side note: the corsair ML fans are backed with a 5 year warranty, which makes it even more interesting to me to just give them a try


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> On a side note: the corsair ML fans are backed with a 5 year warranty, which makes it even more interesting to me to just give them a try


5 year arranty is just advertising .. kinda like an insurance policy. The company knows putting a long warranty on it gives people the impression it is a better product. Most of the time it is not. For example Thermaliright has a 2 year warranty, but I have at lest 20 of their fans running that are 3+ years old . and 5 or 8 that are about 5 years old. I have never hand one go bad yet. 99% of the time these companies could put life time warranties on their fans and almost never have to replace one. Few people use same fans for more than 3-4 years


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> Yeah, For casefans they seem to be what could just suit my needs with their awesome looks and wide rpm ranges when connected with PWM.
> 
> For radiator I think they might be less effective, but there's no harm in just trying to see how they hold up with my OC profiles.
> 
> If performance as radiator fans is below my needs I will probably try noctuas A14 industrial 2000RPM PWM.
> 
> On a side note: the corsair ML fans are backed with a 5 year warranty, which makes it even more interesting to me to just give them a try


I have suggested you the Alpenfoehn fans as chassis fans, exclusively.

For your H115i I suggest you either the Noctua Industrials or the *NB-eLoop Series 140mm*. Not sure if they are LED fans - no time to check it right now, please check it out yourself









*EDIT:*
You might not need three chassis fans, 2 x 120 front, 1 x 140 rear, as I have initially suggested you. Actually, you should take in consideration the H115i as exhaust, as well. Here is the Excel sheet I have created and been using, back in the day when I was still using chassis fans in my Corsair Air 540. After a little while I have removed ALL of my chassis fans and I was simply using my Corsair H110 as intake. Absolutely NO ISSUE of heat AT ALL, in my setup and in my environment! I have posted screenshots of this set up running stress tests! Anyway, here it is:



Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



I was inputing the RPMs to achieve positive pressure. Then I was setting up the fan profile accordingly.


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> I have suggested you the Alpenfoehn fans as chassis fans, exclusively.
> 
> For your H115i I suggest you either the Noctua Industrials or the *NB-eLoop Series 140mm*. Not sure if they are LED fans - no time to check it right now, please check it out yourself


Was just about to respond about the Alpen foehns.

They seem pretty decent to me, but for casefans I have made up my mind and will try the ML120\s.

For the radiator they dont need to be led fans necessarily because they will be in the top.

I think i'll follow your suggestion and go with the noctua\s first. @ Doyll his comment saying some people had bad experience with the ML140mm versions has also made me change my mind about it,


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> ...
> 
> They seem pretty decent to me, but for casefans I have made up my mind and will try the ML120\s.
> 
> ...


I *strongly* suggest you to, at least, investigate seriously the ALPENFÖHN fans for your chassis!

Good Luck









PS: when you'll finally receive the products and set them up, please come to The Intel Devil's Canyon Owners Club to run some tests together!


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> I have suggested you the Alpenfoehn fans as chassis fans, exclusively.
> 
> For your H115i I suggest you either the Noctua Industrials or the *NB-eLoop Series 140mm*. Not sure if they are LED fans - no time to check it right now, please check it out yourself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT:*
> You might not need three chassis fans, 2 x 120 front, 1 x 140 rear, as I have initially suggested you. Actually, you should take in consideration the H115i as exhaust, as well. Here is the Excel sheet I have created and been using, back in the day when I was still using chassis fans in my Corsair Air 540. After a little while I have removed ALL of my chassis fans and I was simply using my Corsair H110 as intake. Absolutely NO ISSUE of heat AT ALL, in my setup and in my environment! I have posted screenshots of this set up running stress tests! Anyway, here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I was inputing the RPMs to achieve positive pressure. Then I was setting up the fan profile accordingly.


I kind of had an idea of making a red white and blue (dutch flag colors) themed on the front.

Ive read a few people saying they use the H115i as intake and claim it is the way to go. Maybe over time I will experiment with it but im gonna use it as exhaust in the top first and see how it goes.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> I *strongly* suggest you to, at least, investigate seriously the Alpenfoehns fans for your chassis!
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: when you'll finally receive the products and set them up, please come to The Intel Devil's Canyon Owners Club to run some tests together!


Im always doing alot of reading before I decide to buy something. But the more I read, the more I tend to not being able to make a choice









I very much appreciate your help though mate. For now I think its enough suggestions for me to considor lol.

And sure ill post pictures of my updated build in the intel devils canyon owners thread and we can run some tests together


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> *EDIT:*
> You might not need three chassis fans, 2 x 120 front, 1 x 140 rear, as I have initially suggested you. Actually, you should take in consideration the H115i as exhaust, as well. Here is the Excel sheet I have created and been using, back in the day when I was still using chassis fans in my Corsair Air 540. After a little while I have removed ALL of my chassis fans and I was simply using my Corsair H110 as intake. Absolutely NO ISSUE of heat AT ALL, in my setup and in my environment! I have posted screenshots of this set up running stress tests! Anyway, here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I was inputing the RPMs to achieve positive pressure. Then I was setting up the fan profile accordingly.


The way 540 is vented it does not flow air anything like normal cases do. I would not recommend mounting a radiator as intake on a case that has everything but the CPU air cooled. The heated air coming out of radiator increased the air temp inside of case causeing other components like GPU to run much hotter .. component temp increased the same amount as case air temp is above room temp.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> The way 540 is vented it does not flow air anything like normal cases do. I would not recommend mounting a radiator as intake on a case that has everything but the CPU air cooled. The heated air coming out of radiator increased the air temp inside of case causeing other components like GPU to run much hotter .. component temp increased the same amount as case air temp is above room temp.


I respect *your opinion*.
*For me it works though*. I repeat, for me and perhaps just me, it works.

Thank you.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> I respect *your opinion*.
> *For me it works though*. I repeat, for me and perhaps just me, it works.
> 
> Thank you.


I respect your opinion too. I'm not saying it does not work for you. I repeat 540 does not have 'normal' case airflow. I think this is an extremely important point and we need to be emphasis how different the 540 case venting effects case airflow compared to 'normal' case venting .
540 has entire top and front of motherboard compartment vented as well as the normal rear vent near top with no obstuctions.
'Normal cases have 5.25 optical drive bays in top front section of case with HDD cages below them.


----------



## miklkit

540 has entire top and front of motherboard compartment vented as well as the normal rear vent near top with no obstuctions.
'Normal cases have 5.25 optical drive bays in top front section of case with HDD cages below them.

Which is why "normal" cases are far inferior to the 540 and other cases like it.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I respect your opinion too. I'm not saying it does not work for you. I repeat 540 does not have 'normal' case airflow. I think this is an extremely important point and we need to be emphasis how different the 540 case venting effects case airflow compared to 'normal' case venting .
> 540 has entire top and front of motherboard compartment vented as well as the normal rear vent near top with no obstuctions.
> 'Normal cases have 5.25 optical drive bays in top front section of case with HDD cages below them.


Okay, now I understand you fully







You are right, this is why on my post #782 above I have underlined that this works in my setup and in my environment.








It is important what you're pointing out though!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> 540 has entire top and front of motherboard compartment vented as well as the normal rear vent near top with no obstuctions.
> 'Normal cases have 5.25 optical drive bays in top front section of case with HDD cages below them.
> 
> Which is why "normal" cases are far inferior to the 540 and other cases like it.


I'm not going to say one is better or worse than other. I can see applications when 540 will be better and many others it will not.
At first I liked the design, but no bottom venting and very limited back venting in PCIe area dramatically lower airflow separation around PCIe / GPU coolers. it's size / proportions are not at all normal. It is very wide and not very deep .. while depth is find the added width will not fit in many of the 'normal' places cases are put. It is not very tall, but way shorter than need be, and with no bottom venting I would prefer to see a case with the PSU and HDD/SSD storage below rather than on the side. 5.25 optical bays are almost obsolete now. I have a slim USB one to use when needed.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Okay, now I understand you fully
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are right, this is why on my post #782 above I have underlined that this works in my setup and in my environment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is important what you're pointing out though!


I knew you knew the differences, but many reading this probably didn't.








Readers not aware of the difference usually don't understand how much difference it makes to airflow.


----------



## miklkit

It doesn't need bottom vents because that is where the hard drives are. That also makes it shorter. What it does is deliver cool air straight back to the cpu cooler. That is prime which is why any case that places the optical drives in the way is inferior. It is also easy to open up the back of any case for better exhaust air flow.

Here is another more conventionally laid out case that has good air flow. All it needs is a top intake fan to take care of the dead zone behind the OD. http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=CA-RL05BR2&similar=633#


----------



## Johnatan8

Let me cite from another theme:
Quote:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Johnatan8 View Post
> 
> I see... Well room temperature is ~ 25'C or 77F... CPU temp is 48 or 118F... GPU and HDD temps are fine... In the background are ~30tabs opened in Chrome, Viber, Skype, DisplayFusion, Aida64 which I use for temp monitoring, Avast, MBAM, MBAE and McShield (small program for USB mallwares).
> When I was buying other components I was short for CPU cooler otherwise I would get it... But in the first year and a half CPU had temps max up to 40C/104F...
> 
> doyll>
> 
> CPU 48c in a 25c room is not bad, but it depends on what the load on CPU is. 5th post in "Ways to Better Cooling" linked in my sig explains airflow and that CPU & GPU cooler intake air temp should only be 2-5c warmer than room temp. 1st post is index, click on topic to see it.


I have 45C at idle and 30% utilization in Fractal R4... Basically 20'C above room temp.... Is this normal?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> It doesn't need bottom vents because that is where the hard drives are. That also makes it shorter. What it does is deliver cool air straight back to the cpu cooler. That is prime which is why any case that places the optical drives in the way is inferior. It is also easy to open up the back of any case for better exhaust air flow.
> 
> Here is another more conventionally laid out case that has good air flow. All it needs is a top intake fan to take care of the dead zone behind the OD. http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=CA-RL05BR2&similar=633#


As I said, HDD / SSD on one side with PSU.
Motherboard compartment on other side.
Having great air delivery and removal to CPU is great.
Not having good air delivery and removal for GPU is a problem
Not being designed and built with good venting, but instead needing to be modified to have good venting is also a problem








Where does cool air come from for GPU .. and where does heated air from GPU go? Those are some of the problems I have with 540.

Silverstone do some very nice cases. Redline Series RL05 has good front venting. A bottom intake and more rear venting would make it even better.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> Let me cite from another theme:
> I have 45C at idle and 30% utilization in Fractal R4... Basically 20'C above room temp.... Is this normal?


20c above ambient at idle sounds quite warm, but it depends on many things. My builds are 3-10c above ambient at idle.


----------



## Johnatan8

Do You have any suggestions? I have three intake fans ( two at front and one at the bottom) and one rear that blows out of case. I don't know what I'm doing wrong... I don't think that any aftermarket cooler would make like 15'C difference. Also GPU doesn't generate that much temperature, at idle it's 30'C...


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> Do You have any suggestions? I have three intake fans ( two at front and one at the bottom) and one rear that blows out of case. I don't know what I'm doing wrong... I don't think that any aftermarket cooler would make like 15'C difference. Also GPU doesn't generate that much temperature, at idle it's 30'C...


I think it would be best to know your CPU cooler and your CPU itself, whether it is overclocked or running at stock clocks.

@ doyll,
Could you recommend a small mATX case with good airflow (the smaller it is the better







Could also be a cube-like case)? Maybe will build a water cooling in there.


----------



## KJZ87

I will be ordering a corsair 570x case soon. I am leaning towards buying the Dark Rock Pro 3 for its quietness (needed since the 570x has poor sound dampening abilities), its excellent cooling, its all black appearance, and that I do not trust AIOs with leakage issues.

My question is if I use the default 3 front fans of the case itself, the dark rock pro 3, and an exhaust fan would that provide good airflow in the case? With the front 3 fans pushing cold air into the case, the cpu fans cooling and expelling hot air from the cpu and gpu, and the exhaust fan expelling the hot air from the back of the case? That would not cause airblow from too many fans correct?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KJZ87*
> 
> I will be ordering a corsair 570x case soon. I am leaning towards buying the Dark Rock Pro 3 for its quietness (needed since the 570x has poor sound dampening abilities), its excellent cooling, its all black appearance, and that I do not trust AIOs with leakage issues.
> 
> My question is if I use the default 3 front fans of the case itself, the dark rock pro 3, and an exhaust fan would that provide good airflow in the case? With the front 3 fans pushing cold air into the case, the cpu fans cooling and expelling hot air from the cpu and gpu, and the exhaust fan expelling the hot air from the back of the case? That would not cause airblow from too many fans correct?


570X looks like it might be a decent case. Dark Rock Pro 3 will fit nicely with about 7mm clearnace.








I have no idea how well the stock case fans will cool or how quiet they will be. As is typical of Corsair, they give no fan specifications or model number. In theory 3x 120mm front intakes will flow enough air . More than enough for CPU cooler, but I don't know if they will flow enough for both CPU and GPU when both are working hard. Depends on what GPU you will be using .. will it have a 2x or a 3x 90mm fan cooler on it? I would not expect to see 'airblow' issues







assuming you plan to have case fans variable speed controlled by component heat.


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 570X looks like it might be a decent case. Dark Rock Pro 3 will fit nicely with about 7mm clearnace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how well the stock case fans will cool or how quiet they will be. As is typical of Corsair, they give no fan specifications or model number. In theory 3x 120mm front intakes will flow enough air . More than enough for CPU cooler, but I don't know if they will flow enough for both CPU and GPU when both are working hard. Depends on what GPU you will be using .. will it have a 2x or a 3x 90mm fan cooler on it? I would not expect to see 'airblow' issues
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> assuming you plan to have case fans variable speed controlled by component heat.


If he is getting 570X RGB then they are using SP120 RGB fans.


----------



## KJZ87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 570X looks like it might be a decent case. Dark Rock Pro 3 will fit nicely with about 7mm clearnace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how well the stock case fans will cool or how quiet they will be. As is typical of Corsair, they give no fan specifications or model number. In theory 3x 120mm front intakes will flow enough air . More than enough for CPU cooler, but I don't know if they will flow enough for both CPU and GPU when both are working hard. Depends on what GPU you will be using .. will it have a 2x or a 3x 90mm fan cooler on it? I would not expect to see 'airblow' issues
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> assuming you plan to have case fans variable speed controlled by component heat.


Coming from an old Rosewill Thorv2 that is falling apart the 570x will be a major change. The front three fans are SP120 RGB fans as Arengeta mentioned.

My plans are to get a 1080 ti if it gets released in the next couple of months; if not then it will be a 1080. Could be either 2 or 3 fan cooler depending on which ones have the best coolers. I like my cards to stay cool.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> If he is getting 570X RGB then they are using SP120 RGB fans.


No offense, but that is what you say.
The 570 RGB webpage says Fans Included Front: (x3) 120mm RGB LED.
You may be 100% right, but ...
Official statements trump general public statements.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KJZ87*
> 
> Coming from an old Rosewill Thorv2 that is falling apart the 570x will be a major change. The front three fans are SP120 RGB fans as Arengeta mentioned.
> 
> My plans are to get a 1080 ti if it gets released in the next couple of months; if not then it will be a 1080. Could be either 2 or 3 fan cooler depending on which ones have the best coolers. I like my cards to stay cool.


Same answer as above.
But assuming the are SP120 fans, most of the people I know how have used them found them to be inadequate and changed to better fans.

Basically 3x 120mm fans move about same amount of air as 2x 140mm fans of similar design .. often the 140mm fans are quieter. The Dark Rock Pro 3 uses a 135mm fan rated 57cfm at full speed. 90mm GPU fans are rated about 35cfm each at full speed. So we are looking at components using a maximum of about 160cfm. If the 570X has 1450rpm like SP120Q it is 37.8cfm so 3x are 105.4cfm total against 160cfm for components means that components under heavey load using fans at full speed will be using 1.5 times as much air as 3x case fans are providing. This means the components have to scavenge / cannibalize / use 1/3 of their own heated exhaust air. Now this is theoretical based on calculations, but I think you understand the problem here. 'Theoretically' we want case to be flowing 25-50% more air than components so the airflow is pushing / holding their heated exhaust air away from their intakes.


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> No offense, but that is what you say.
> The 570 RGB webpage says Fans Included Front: (x3) 120mm RGB LED.
> You may be 100% right, but ...
> Official statements trump general public statements.


Well, official statement from Corsair.


Also why do you ignore my other questions?


----------



## KJZ87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Same answer as above.
> But assuming the are SP120 fans, most of the people I know how have used them found them to be inadequate and changed to better fans.
> 
> Basically 3x 120mm fans move about same amount of air as 2x 140mm fans of similar design .. often the 140mm fans are quieter. The Dark Rock Pro 3 uses a 135mm fan rated 57cfm at full speed. 90mm GPU fans are rated about 35cfm each at full speed. So we are looking at components using a maximum of about 160cfm. If the 570X has 1450rpm like SP120Q it is 37.8cfm so 3x are 105.4cfm total against 160cfm for components means that components under heavey load using fans at full speed will be using 1.5 times as much air as 3x case fans are providing. This means the components have to scavenge / cannibalize / use 1/3 of their own heated exhaust air. Now this is theoretical based on calculations, but I think you understand the problem here. 'Theoretically' we want case to be flowing 25-50% more air than components so the airflow is pushing / holding their heated exhaust air away from their intakes.


Would the open gap between the tempered glass panels alleviate the potential issue of the components scavenging the heated air?

Would there be any alternatives then replacing the stock fans? Because having front led fans are something i like to keep with this case.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> Well, official statement from Corsair.
> 
> 
> Also why do you ignore my other questions?


Okay, I concede they are SP120 fans. Strange they don't put that in the case "specifications.'









As for other questions .. I have only one
Quote:


> My question is if I use the default 3 front fans of the case itself, the dark rock pro 3, and an exhaust fan would that provide good airflow in the case?


One I don't have any answers to because I have my mATX in a full size case. I have not tested or used any mATX cases.
But that is no excuse for ignoring your question. Please accept my apology.
You have read much of what I have posted in this thread about how airflow works and how to apply it, so you should be equiped with the knowledge to look at cases and have a pretty good idea of how well they will work. Are there any you like?


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You have read much of what I have posted in this thread about how airflow works and how to apply it, so you should be equiped with the knowledge to look at cases and have a pretty good idea of how well they will work. Are there any you like?


It's ok, I could ask in PM but you prefer to answer in the thread where everyone could see and I'm totally okay with that








Generally I have absolutely no idea, I was looking at Fractal Design Node 804 case to replace my current Silverstone GD06 since I plan to build a water cooling loop later on.
Others I thought were Corsair Air 240 (I like how it looks, but the internals are much worse than in Node 804), BitFenix Prodigy M or Corsair 460X







Last one is not mATX, I know, but it looks cool


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KJZ87*
> 
> Would the open gap between the tempered glass panels alleviate the potential issue of the components scavenging the heated air?
> 
> Would there be any alternatives then replacing the stock fans? Because having front led fans are something i like to keep with this case.


Nope

If you have a box with 5 holes holes in a tank of water with a turning propeller moving water through one hole, how much water will be moving thorough the box?

Yup, all of the water the one propeller moves will easily flow through and out box.

Now if we put 3 propellers moving water into the box and the holes letting water out of the box are not big enough those 3 propellers will be limited to moving only as much water into the box as is able to get out through the 2 holes.

3 propellers (fans) can only more as much water out of the box as the 2 holes will flow.

Airflow works exactly the same way.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> It's ok, I could ask in PM but you prefer to answer in the thread where everyone could see and I'm totally okay with that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Generally I have absolutely no idea, I was looking at Fractal Design Node 804 case to replace my current Silverstone GD06 since I plan to build a water cooling loop later on.
> Others I thought were Corsair Air 240 (I like how it looks, but the internals are much worse than in Node 804), BitFenix Prodigy M or Corsair 460X
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last one is not mATX, I know, but it looks cool


I haven't used water cooling in many many years. Sure, I'm using a Silent Loop 280mm now in one system, but system is still air cooled on everything but CPU so it's air cooled system not water.

How do the above cases look for flowing air in, through past components and out of them? I don't have the time at the moment to look them up. If I remember correctly the Prodigy M has a decent layout .. but I'm not sure. It would appear the 460X has same problems as 470X

What about Enthoo Evolv ATX or Evolv mATX?


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I haven't used water cooling in many many years. Sure, I'm using a Silent Loop 280mm now in one system, but system is still air cooled on everything but CPU so it's air cooled system not water.
> 
> How do the above cases look for flowing air in, through past components and out of them? I don't have the time at the moment to look them up. If I remember correctly the Prodigy M has a decent layout .. but I'm not sure. It would appear the 460X has same problems as 470X
> 
> What about Enthoo Evolv ATX or Evolv mATX?


Unfortunately Phanteks is not sold in the country where I live.
Node 804 has a basic computer layout that is divided into 2 parts (GPU and HDD compartment and motherboard). Both compartments have 2x 120mm intakes, 4x140mm top exhausts (2 per each) and 140mm back exhaust (1 per each). Though only the bottom front intake has free air flow throught the mesh, top one is covered with plastic and probably gets air from the bottom or some other holes in the front. Basically it should have really nice airflow in theory, but in practice I'm not really sure of that.
Prodigy M has only bottom intake for CPU, while GPU takes air from the top and I'm not sure how good it is for cooling GPU.

What problems does the 570X has? I am unaware of them.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> What problems does the 570X has? I am unaware of them.


Like I said, same as I calculated for 460X. If they are a problem or not might be resolved with intake fans that move more air through the case, or maybe not a problem at all. Personally I would not want a fish take case. Any flaw in build quality, dust etc. can all be seen. Kinda like living in a glass house.


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Like I said, same as I calculated for 460X. If they are a problem or not might be resolved with intake fans that move more air through the case, or maybe not a problem at all. Personally I would not want a fish take case. Any flaw in build quality, dust etc. can all be seen. Kinda like living in a glass house.


Living in a glass house is cool if it's on the top floor of some skyscraper where nobody can see you








Only thing I dislike about that glass case is the front mesh.
What can you say about Node 804 and BitFenix Prodigy M? Node 804 should certainly have better airflow and allows to install a watercooling loop without problems, but is it actually better than Corsair Air 240?


----------



## KJZ87

According to Newegg the SP120 fans have an airflow of 52 CFM, so the front three fans would have 156 cfm at full speed. So theoretically with the Dark Rock Pro 3 at 57 cfm and a gpu with twin 90mm at 70 cfm, it would be close to the extra 25% airflow from the case:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16835181118

After dealing with heavy steel panels that were made misaligned by the company and cheap plastic coming off the thor v2, I look forward to the TG case.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KJZ87*
> 
> According to Newegg the SP120 fans have an airflow of 52 CFM, so the front three fans would have 156 cfm at full speed. So theoretically with the Dark Rock Pro 3 at 57 cfm and a gpu with twin 90mm at 70 cfm, it would be close to the extra 25% airflow from the case:
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16835181118
> 
> After dealing with heavy steel panels that were made misaligned by the company and cheap plastic coming off the thor v2, I look forward to the TG case.


Obviously you have no idea how fan ratings are determined .. assume the are even close to being accurate .. or how they translate into actual application and use. Also your '52cfm' is assuming you have your case fans running full speed with no vent grill or filter on anything else that might interrupt the airflow.

Airflow ratings are with fans at full speed and completely unobstructed by anything .. like a fan mounted on a pedestal with nothing anywhere around it .. definitely not a way I use my case fans. Just a simple hexagonal grill will lower the airflow significantly and even more if fan's speed is half speed.

At a guess the 3x front intakes will be lucky if they flow 100CFM at full speed. They may very well supply enough air for a functional system. Most of my posts are more about optimal performance than what we can get away with in many of the cases we use.









Check out "Grill & Filter Effect on Airflow & Noise level".
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22657923


----------



## Johnatan8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> I think it would be best to know your CPU cooler and your CPU itself, whether it is overclocked or running at stock clocks.
> 
> @ doyll,
> Could you recommend a small mATX case with good airflow (the smaller it is the better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could also be a cube-like case)? Maybe will build a water cooling in there.


How do you mean to know my CPU and cooler ?... It's just i5-4570 so no overclocking here and stock Intel CPU cooler.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I haven't used water cooling in many many years. Sure, I'm using a Silent Loop 280mm now in one system, but system is still air cooled on everything but CPU so it's air cooled system not water.
> 
> How do the above cases look for flowing air in, through past components and out of them? I don't have the time at the moment to look them up. If I remember correctly the Prodigy M has a decent layout .. but I'm not sure. It would appear the 460X has same problems as 470X
> 
> What about Enthoo Evolv ATX or Evolv mATX?


I like the Prodigy better than Prodigy M, but it is ITX, not mATX.
For more Enthoo Evolv ATX and mATX information you might like Phanteks case forum
http://www.overclock.net/t/1418637/official-case-phanteks-case-club-for-lovers-owners/0_20
I've done several guides and how-to's with most of them linked from opening post.


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> How do you mean to know my CPU and cooler ?... It's just i5-4570 so no overclocking here and stock Intel CPU cooler.


Stock intel cooler cannot do a proper job even for a core i5. It's a very basic and cheap cooler. Best would be getting even a cheap tower-based heatsink and your temps will dramatically go down. With a good tower-cooler my i5 6400 was 40-42C under load with a NH-D9L (110mm height only). Overclocked to 4.32Ghz it's at 35C idle and 62C under stress testing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I like the Prodigy better than Prodigy M, but it is ITX, not mATX.
> For more Enthoo Evolv ATX and mATX information you might like Phanteks case forum
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1418637/official-case-phanteks-case-club-for-lovers-owners/0_20
> I've done several guides and how-to's with most of them linked from opening post.


As I said earlier Phanteks is not avaliable in my country and there is no way getting it.


----------



## KJZ87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Obviously you have no idea how fan ratings are determined .. assume the are even close to being accurate .. or how they translate into actual application and use. Also your '52cfm' is assuming you have your case fans running full speed with no vent grill or filter on anything else that might interrupt the airflow.
> 
> Airflow ratings are with fans at full speed and completely unobstructed by anything .. like a fan mounted on a pedestal with nothing anywhere around it .. definitely not a way I use my case fans. Just a simple hexagonal grill will lower the airflow significantly and even more if fan's speed is half speed.
> 
> At a guess the 3x front intakes will be lucky if they flow 100CFM at full speed. They may very well supply enough air for a functional system. Most of my posts are more about optimal performance than what we can get away with in many of the cases we use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out "Grill & Filter Effect on Airflow & Noise level".
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22657923


I see. My goal here is for my cpu and gpu to have similar temps at high usage for gaming purposes. With my current Thor v2 I use the default/ pre-installed 230 mm red led fan in the front, 1 x 230 mm for the top panel, and 1 x 140 mm rear exhaust fan. I had gpu temps below 60 C with a 980 Ti Lightning LE at 100% fan speed; and I7-6700K temps that averaged the upper 50s C with the NH-D14. I will have to look further to know what specific fans the case uses since the Rosewill site did not provide specifics for its fans. The front of the case has a hexagon grill in front of the front fan. The advantage of the 570x is the front of the case is much more open than the Thor v2's HDD bays and CD/DVD bays.

I have bought the 570x online; for now I am looking for a good rear 120 mm exhaust fan for the 570x. This looks promising https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=1YF-001D-00015. The black industrial Noctua120mm fan is another one but I am not sure the much higher dbs at higher speeds for more airflow is a good tradeoff vs the Silentwings 3 fan.


----------



## Dan-H

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KoolDrew*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the data. I'm at full load 24/7 folding which is why I think the lower overclock / voltage might be the way to go. I'm currently only folding on the CPU though. In the future might be both or just the GPU. The fans currently running full speed and are not unbearable, but I don't think I'd want them much louder 24/7. I've been messing with SpeedFan and this is the default fan curve. Since my temps are generally hovering in the mid-to-high 60s this means they are running at full speed 24/7. Any issues with this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Dan-H Do you mind sharing your fan curve? Thanks a ton for the info you shared earlier as well. I was able to get SpeedFan up and running just based off your screenshots alone.


below is my fan curve, and the speeds at the each 5% interval. I could probably do a little more tuning but this seems to work well for the time being.

Pretty much anything below 60C on the CPU is inaudible. My front case fans use the same sensors (core 0 .. core 3 ) but spin up at lower temps from the CPU. The case fans are quieter than the CPU fans is my reasoning. I'm not sure it is the best reasoning but it is what it is.

edit: I'm not sure what I wrote was clear or not. The front Fan curve starts to ramp up when the CPU gets above 40C. The case fans can run up faster before I can hear them and I think that the air moving past the CPU cooler is enough to keep the temps in check with the fan curve on the CPU cooler set to not spin up until temps are higher. I hope this makes sense.

25% 616 rpm
30% 620 rpm
35% 620 rpm
40% 628 rpm
45% 648 rpm
50% 673 rpm
55% 707 rpm
60% 773 rpm
65% 857 rpm
70% 932 rpm
75% 1006 rpm
80% 1083 rpm
85% 1150 rpm
90% 1220 rpm
95% 1274 rpm
100% 1274 rpm


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KJZ87*
> 
> I see. My goal here is for my cpu and gpu to have similar temps at high usage for gaming purposes. With my current Thor v2 I use the default/ pre-installed 230 mm red led fan in the front, 1 x 230 mm for the top panel, and 1 x 140 mm rear exhaust fan. I had gpu temps below 60 C with a 980 Ti Lightning LE at 100% fan speed; and I7-6700K temps that averaged the upper 50s C with the NH-D14. I will have to look further to know what specific fans the case uses since the Rosewill site did not provide specifics for its fans. The front of the case has a hexagon grill in front of the front fan. The advantage of the 570x is the front of the case is much more open than the Thor v2's HDD bays and CD/DVD bays.
> 
> I have bought the 570x online; for now I am looking for a good rear 120 mm exhaust fan for the 570x. This looks promising https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=1YF-001D-00015. The black industrial Noctua120mm fan is another one but I am not sure the much higher dbs at higher speeds for more airflow is a good tradeoff vs the Silentwings 3 fan.


What about Thermalright TY-143 for exhaust fan?
Or are you looking for good looks as well? If so, I'd recommend Corsair ML120 Pro. While be quiet! are really good fans at being silent they do not push much air even at high RPM's.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> Stock intel cooler cannot do a proper job even for a core i5. It's a very basic and cheap cooler. Best would be getting even a cheap tower-based heatsink and your temps will dramatically go down. With a good tower-cooler my i5 6400 was 40-42C under load with a NH-D9L (110mm height only). Overclocked to 4.32Ghz it's at 35C idle and 62C under stress testing.
> As I said earlier Phanteks is not avaliable in my country and there is no way getting it.


Stock intel cooler cools stock CPUs just fine .. not as quiet as a better cooler, but still cools fine.
I don't buy my CPUs with a cooler because I always use better coolers and have good airflow.








I do agree, there are many good aftermarket coolers in the $20-35.00 range to choose from that do a much better job than stock coolers do.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> What about Thermalright TY-143 for exhaust fan?
> Or are you looking for good looks as well? If so, I'd recommend Corsair ML120 Pro. While be quiet! are really good fans at being silent they do not push much air even at high RPM's.


A TY-143 fan will move twice or more than what a good 140mm fan does .. 3 times or more than what most 120mm fans move. But to do move that much air it becomes much louder. Also, the TY-143 mount holes are 105mm center to center, not the 124.5 mm spacing of normal 140mm fans.

TY-143 is about 54dB @ 560fpm This 54dB is measures 150mm from fan.











http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/19/thermalright-ty-143-sq-140-mm-fan/3/

Keep in mind the feet per minute is only the air speed. 140mm fan has about 50% more airflow area than 120mm fan.

Here is SP120 .. about 37dB @ 200fpm


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KJZ87*
> 
> I see. My goal here is for my cpu and gpu to have similar temps at high usage for gaming purposes. With my current Thor v2 I use the default/ pre-installed 230 mm red led fan in the front, 1 x 230 mm for the top panel, and 1 x 140 mm rear exhaust fan. I had gpu temps below 60 C with a 980 Ti Lightning LE at 100% fan speed; and I7-6700K temps that averaged the upper 50s C with the NH-D14. I will have to look further to know what specific fans the case uses since the Rosewill site did not provide specifics for its fans. The front of the case has a hexagon grill in front of the front fan. The advantage of the 570x is the front of the case is much more open than the Thor v2's HDD bays and CD/DVD bays.
> 
> I have bought the 570x online; for now I am looking for a good rear 120 mm exhaust fan for the 570x. This looks promising https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=1YF-001D-00015. The black industrial Noctua120mm fan is another one but I am not sure the much higher dbs at higher speeds for more airflow is a good tradeoff vs the Silentwings 3 fan.


Sounds like your current Thor V2 is working just fine.

I suggest you assemble the 570x with stock fans and monitor the airflow temps as discribe in post #5 of this thread.


----------



## KJZ87

I will get a theronometer to monitor the temps within the 570x case and use the cpu temp software as well.

As for the Silentwings 3 vs ML120 Pro, the Silentwings 3 has better specs in terms on dba/sound level, and cfm/airflow at full rpm speed according to the manufacturers' websites. But I will be reading reviews before making a decision.

I do want a solid black fan that moves a good amount of air without being very loud dba wise.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KJZ87*
> 
> I will get a theronometer to monitor the temps within the 570x case and use the cpu temp software as well.
> 
> As for the Silentwings 3 vs ML120 Pro, the Silentwings 3 has better specs in terms on dba/sound level, and cfm/airflow at full rpm speed according to the manufacturers' websites. But I will be reading reviews before making a decision.
> 
> I do want a solid black fan that moves a good amount of air without being very loud dba wise.


I always use both airflow temp and component temps when setting up a system. Both are equally important.









The fan issue is .. well maybe it's not an issue at all. Try the stock fans and see. The basic airflow will be the same with whatever fans you use except maybe for the rear exhaust fan. Lets see how it does stock, then work it up from there.


----------



## Johnatan8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> Stock intel cooler cannot do a proper job even for a core i5. It's a very basic and cheap cooler. Best would be getting even a cheap tower-based heatsink and your temps will dramatically go down. With a good tower-cooler my i5 6400 was 40-42C under load with a NH-D9L (110mm height only). Overclocked to 4.32Ghz it's at 35C idle and 62C under stress testing.
> As I said earlier Phanteks is not avaliable in my country and there is no way getting it.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Stock intel cooler cools stock CPUs just fine .. not as quiet as a better cooler, but still cools fine.
> I don't buy my CPUs with a cooler because I always use better coolers and have good airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree, there are many good aftermarket coolers in the $20-35.00 range to choose from that do a much better job than stock coolers do.
> A TY-143 fan will move twice or more than what a good 140mm fan does .. 3 times or more than what most 120mm fans move. But to do move that much air it becomes much louder. Also, the TY-143 mount holes are 105mm center to center, not the 124.5 mm spacing of normal 140mm fans.
> 
> TY-143 is about 54dB @ 560fpm This 54dB is measures 150mm from fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/19/thermalright-ty-143-sq-140-mm-fan/3/
> 
> Keep in mind the feet per minute is only the air speed. 140mm fan has about 50% more airflow area than 120mm fan.
> 
> Here is SP120 .. about 37dB @ 200fpm


Alright guys. I'm getting aftermarket cooler next week and will post what happened. I have very limited choice here where I live. So what do you think COOLER MASTER - Hyper 612 or COOLER MASTER - Hyper 212 EVO, some opinion or should I open new thread to ask if I'm not allowed here?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> Alright guys. I'm getting aftermarket cooler next week and will post what happened. I have very limited choice here where I live. So what do you think COOLER MASTER - Hyper 612 or COOLER MASTER - Hyper 212 EVO, some opinion or should I open new thread to ask if I'm not allowed here?


I think there are better coolers for similar money


----------



## Johnatan8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I think there are better coolers for similar money


Like what? Tell me so I can try to find it here


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> Like what? Tell me so I can try to find it here


How about some links to websites you can buy from and we pick from what is available on them?


----------



## Johnatan8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I think there are better coolers for similar money


Here are some:

http://gigatronshop.com/hladnjaci_i_oprema?prikaz=grid-view&limit=32&poredak=rastuci&strana=3

https://viphouse.rs/kategorije/ra%C4%8Dunarske-komponente/proizvod.26965.27074#page-1

Thanks in advance


----------



## Surprentis

I had PM'ed OP and wanted to post this here as OP had stated that so others can see in case they have the same question so no problem here it is









JoeSamo86
Today at 3:00 pm
Hi thanks again for the thread but I have two questions

1. How could I perform a smoke test? What would I need to buy thats safe to use on my computer?

2. I have the cooler master hyper 212 evo cooler and after reading your post im curious....should I have both of my noctua fans that are attached to it pulling air away from the cooler? I have one thats pulling air into it and the other one exhausting it out which then exhausts it out the back fan.

http://www.overclock.net/lists/display/view_item/id/6457209

My case is a fractal design R4 with almost all noctua fans in every slot besides the top 2 being cougar fans. Anyways looking forward to hearing from you thank you so much for all of your amazing work thumb.gif

Joe

doyll
Today at 3:17 pm
Hi Joe,
incense sticks work. Cigarette smoke works.

One fan in, one fan out.


----------



## doyll

Actually we need a intake to exceed exhaust by a little bit. The little extra intake then leaks out other opening and holes in case rather than dusty air leaking in.


----------



## SAMiN

I'm planning to discounted my gpus fans (Sapphire RX480 Nitro) from pcb and controlling them trough motherboards pwm fan header. but so far no luck, I built on 4pin pwm cable myself but fans are always spinning on 1500rpm. and guides hos should I do it properly?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SAMiN*
> 
> I'm planning to discounted my gpus fans (Sapphire RX480 Nitro) from pcb and controlling them trough motherboards pwm fan header. but so far no luck, I built on 4pin pwm cable myself but fans are always spinning on 1500rpm. and guides hos should I do it properly?


Sorry, but I'm having a hard time understanding your writing. Why control them with motherboard instead of with Sapphire RX480 fan controller? I assume there is fan control on GPU.

What guide did you use?


----------



## SAMiN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, but I'm having a hard time understanding your writing. Why control them with motherboard instead of with Sapphire RX480 fan controller? I assume there is fan control on GPU.
> 
> What guide did you use?


OK let me explain better.
this GPU has this stupid system that it turns all the fans off when the temps are lower than 50C and when it reaches to that temps fans start spinning. I have to issue with that, first this way it creases the temp inside the case, second it creates unpleasant sound when it goes on and off!

As I'm using other OS beside Windows I can't control it through software, I couldn't disable this behavior through editing the GPU's VBIOS either.

So I decided I control the fans using motherboards fan headers. And I used the wiring guide in first page of this topic , which it was this one:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







I have to mention the fan cable coming out of this GPU is 5pin as it has dual fan.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SAMiN*
> 
> OK let me explain better.
> this GPU has this stupid system that it turns all the fans off when the temps are lower than 50C and when it reaches to that temps fans start spinning. I have to issue with that, first this way it creases the temp inside the case, second it creates unpleasant sound when it goes on and off!
> 
> As I'm using other OS beside Windows I can't control it through software, I couldn't disable this behavior through editing the GPU's VBIOS either.
> 
> So I decided I control the fans using motherboards fan headers. And I used the wiring guide in first page of this topic , which it was this one:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to mention the fan cable coming out of this GPU is 5pin as it has dual fan.


Is 1500rpm the maximum speed of the fans you are trying to control?

Is your GPU header 4-pin or 5-pin?

What is the pinout of your 5-pin VGA PWM mini connector?

Are the plug wire colors Green, Black, Yellow, Red, Blue?
Green = RPM
Black = 12 volt
Yellow = Grd
Red = RPM
Blue = PWM signal

If they is, my guess is the blue is PWM signal lead.
-Pin1-Ground (assume green)
-Pin2-+12V (assume black)
-Pin3-RPM sense (from fan-1)
-Pin4-RPM sense (from fan-2)
-Pin5-PWM signal (assume blue)

On my Asus GTX580 DCII I'm pretty sure it is:
I'm pretty sure this is the pin-out:
Pin1: PWM signal (from VGA header) 2x wires into this pin
Pin2: RPM sense (from Fan #1) 1x wires here
Pin3: +12V 2x wires here
Pin4: Ground 2x wires here
Pin5: RPM sense (from Fan #2) 1x wires here

The problem is not all GPU are wired the same .. and there is no color code.

I think the Sapphire Nitro 480X fan header is 5-pin on end of GPU PCB card with green, yellow, blue, red, & black.

On the back of the GPU fan are the 4 contacts are labeled '-', '+', 'S', and 'P' ?
If this is true, my guess is they are ground, 12v power, RPM and PWM.

You need PWM signal from motherboard fan header to the PWM connector on fan.

Are you even sure the fan header you are using on motherboard is a PWM fan header?

Sorry for all the questions, but it's not an easy problem.


----------



## Arengeta

Can't you just use like MSI Afterburner and set the fan curve to your liking?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*
> 
> Can't you just use like MSI Afterburner and set the fan curve to your liking?


Not sure if MSI: Afterburner will work with SAMiN 's OS. He said "As I'm using other OS beside Windows I can't control it through software .."


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Not sure if MSI: Afterburner will work with SAMiN 's OS. He said "As I'm using other OS beside Windows I can't control it through software .."


Ah, I have skipped that. Well, maybe edited BIOS would work?


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Hey Doyll

Just wanted to share my tragic cooling setup. I can't wait to get a new case.... or build my desk. Figured you could use a chuckle this Monday morning.


----------



## SAMiN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Is 1500rpm the maximum speed of the fans you are trying to control?
> 
> Is your GPU header 4-pin or 5-pin?
> 
> What is the pinout of your 5-pin VGA PWM mini connector?
> 
> I think the Sapphire Nitro 480X fan header is 5-pin on end of GPU PCB card with green, yellow, blue, red, & black.
> 
> On the back of the GPU fan are the 4 contacts are labeled '-', '+', 'S', and 'P' ?
> If this is true, my guess is they are ground, 12v power, RPM and PWM.
> 
> You need PWM signal from motherboard fan header to the PWM connector on fan.
> 
> Are you even sure the fan header you are using on motherboard is a PWM fan header?


Maximum speed is around 2300rpm
Its 5pin mini conector
Quote:


> I think the Sapphire Nitro 480X fan header is 5-pin on end of GPU PCB card with green, yellow, blue, red, & black.
> 
> On the back of the GPU fan are the 4 contacts are labeled '-', '+', 'S', and 'P' ?
> If this is true, my guess is they are ground, 12v power, RPM and PWM.


Exactly its correct .
Quote:


> Are you even sure the fan header you are using on motherboard is a PWM fan header?


It seems that was the issue! I connected the cable to CPU_FAN header and now it works!

So in this case, knowing only CPU fan header is true PWM fan header what other options do I have?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SAMiN*
> 
> Maximum speed is around 2300rpm
> Its 5pin mini conector
> Exactly its correct .
> It seems that was the issue! I connected the cable to CPU_FAN header and now it works!
> 
> So in this case, knowing only CPU fan header is true PWM fan header what other options do I have?


You CPU fan header is only PWM on your motherboard. I don't know how to control them if you cannot find a way to do it with GPU software. Maybe do it in GPU bios.


----------



## Johnatan8

I got myself Cooler Master Hyper 612 ver 2....Now I just need to find time to set everything up. Does anybody know whether or not I have to remove the motherboard to set cooler on Fractal Design R4?


----------



## SAMiN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You CPU fan header is only PWM on your motherboard. I don't know how to control them if you cannot find a way to do it with GPU software. Maybe do it in GPU bios.


I think I should get a separate fan controller. Thanks anyways


----------



## Liopleus

@doyll

Could I get some suggestion from you regarding choosing a 120mm rear exhaust fan?

Current candidates are Arctic F12 PWM and Noctua S12A PWM.

I want a quiet fan that performs well unobstructed, base on what I know I don't need a high pressure fan since I already have 2 strong intake fans(plz correct me if I'm wrong).

My case is Fractal Design Define C with 2 Thermalright TY-147A SQ as front intake fan.

Other components:

CPU: i5-3470 with stock cooler(will upgrade to Ryzen with Le Grand Macho RT)

MB: ASRock B75 Pro3-M(will upgrade to X370 full ATX board)

GPU: Asus Strix RX 470

PSU: Super Flower Leadex 650W(shouldn't matter since it's in shroud.)

Thanks in advance.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> I got myself Cooler Master Hyper 612 ver 2....Now I just need to find time to set everything up. Does anybody know whether or not I have to remove the motherboard to set cooler on Fractal Design R4?


You should be able to install cooler without removing motherboard.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SAMiN*
> 
> I think I should get a separate fan controller. Thanks anyways


There are only a few PWM fan controllers, and only Aquaero can be programmed with an automatic temp to rpm curve, and it is not cheap.

Have you considered changing the fans on GPU to 2x Arctic F9 or F12 TC fans? The Arctic F12 TC has it's own temperature probe. Here is one with F12 TC fans Their temp to speed curve is like below graph. Most of the time when using them I just slip the sensor in between the fins and PCB.and they speed up when needed.
 

This is my KFA2 GTX 770 LTD OC with stock fans and with Arctic F9 PWM fans .. I use Win 7 so can setup custom speed curve.










Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Liopleus*
> 
> @doyll
> 
> Could I get some suggestion from you regarding choosing a 120mm rear exhaust fan?
> 
> Current candidates are Arctic F12 PWM and Noctua S12A PWM.
> 
> I want a quiet fan that performs well unobstructed, base on what I know I don't need a high pressure fan since I already have 2 strong intake fans(plz correct me if I'm wrong).
> 
> My case is Fractal Design Define C with 2 Thermalright TY-147A SQ as front intake fan.
> 
> Other components:
> 
> CPU: i5-3470 with stock cooler(will upgrade to Ryzen with Le Grand Macho RT)
> 
> MB: ASRock B75 Pro3-M(will upgrade to X370 full ATX board)
> 
> GPU: Asus Strix RX 470
> 
> PSU: Super Flower Leadex 650W(shouldn't matter since it's in shroud.)
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I would think with the 2x TY-147A SQ front intakes no exhaust fan is needed. What are your cooler intake air temps?


----------



## Liopleus

@doyll

Thanks for the reply.

Actually I have no temp issue now, but I have some irrational desire to upgrade the stock fan in the Define C(not a bad fan but no PWM).

If there's little benefit upgrading the exhaust fan, I think I could save a few bucks.

Thanks for your help!

P.S. I still want to know which of these is the better exhaust fan in terms of airflow/noise ratio regardless of price, just curious......


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Liopleus*
> 
> @doyll
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Actually I have no temp issue now, but I have some irrational desire to upgrade the stock fan in the Define C(not a bad fan but no PWM).
> 
> If there's little benefit upgrading the exhaust fan, I think I could save a few bucks.
> 
> Thanks for your help!
> 
> P.S. I still want to know which of these is the better exhaust fan in terms of airflow/noise ratio regardless of price, just curious......


Without knowing what your airflow temps going into CPU and GPU coolers are when they are working at 100% load it is really impossible to know if temps an be lowered or not (see #5 post).

Upgrading to Le Grand Macho RT which has a TY-147B (same fan as TY-147A but with black impeller) logic would seem to be exhaust fan should be TY-147A / TY-147A SQ if it can be squeezed in. Do you have 140mm from case side to I/O opening? I often build without the I/O shield because without it airflow over motherboard is usually improved between CPU and back. Maybe fan could be mounted on back of case instead of inside?

But really, we need to know what your case airflow temps are into coolers. That is where we can improve temps if they are not within 3-5c of room temp.


----------



## Liopleus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Without knowing what your airflow temps going into CPU and GPU coolers are when they are working at 100% load it is really impossible to know if temps an be lowered or not (see #5 post).
> 
> Upgrading to Le Grand Macho RT which has a TY-147B (same fan as TY-147A but with black impeller) logic would seem to be exhaust fan should be TY-147A / TY-147A SQ if it can be squeezed in. Do you have 140mm from case side to I/O opening? I often build without the I/O shield because without it airflow over motherboard is usually improved between CPU and back. Maybe fan could be mounted on back of case instead of inside?
> 
> But really, we need to know what your case airflow temps are into coolers. That is where we can improve temps if they are not within 3-5c of room temp.


Thanks for the reply.

I'd have gone for another TY-147A SQ if possible, but my case only allow 120mm fan in the rear, forcefully mount a 140mm fan could block some ports.

I guess I'll have measure the temp after those upgrade then decide if I need to upgrade the exhaust fan.


----------



## AyyMD

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRV5NTQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AY018ZC4KJZWL

Would this work for monitoring intake temperature Doyll?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AyyMD*
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRV5NTQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AY018ZC4KJZWL
> 
> Would this work for monitoring intake temperature Doyll?


It will, but so will this one for $4.83. The high/low record are not really usable because we need to log air temps the same time you log CPU temp. As long as it has a remote temp probe and you have a clothspin, wire and tape for a probe holder similar to one in #1
https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Digital-Outdoor-Thermometer-Hygrometer/dp/B013Z8F0NA/ref=sr_1_6?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1486578137&sr=1-6&keywords=digital+indoor%2Foutdoor+thermometer


----------



## AyyMD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> It will, but so will this one for $4.83. The high/low record are not really usable because we need to log air temps the same time you log CPU temp. As long as it has a remote temp probe and you have a clothspin, wire and tape for a probe holder similar to one in #1
> https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Digital-Outdoor-Thermometer-Hygrometer/dp/B013Z8F0NA/ref=sr_1_6?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1486578137&sr=1-6&keywords=digital+indoor%2Foutdoor+thermometer


Already ordered the $11 one. I can record temperatures for the CPU by quite literally recording them via Relive with my GPU.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AyyMD*
> 
> Already ordered the $11 one. I can record temperatures for the CPU by quite literally recording them via Relive with my GPU.


Planet Earth to AyyMD! Planet Earth to AyyMD! What part of monitor and log both CPU and air temp at same time don't you understand?
You can't just use the highest CPU temp and the highest cooler intake air temp. *Both temps have to be logged/recorded at same time!* If they are not written down at same time you don't know what the cooler intake air temp was when the CPU temp was written down. So you don't have an accurate delta temp. The test results become just another of the many inaccurate test results reviews base their reviews on.


----------



## AyyMD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Planet Earth to AyyMD! Planet Earth to AyyMD! What part of monitor and log both CPU and air temp at same time don't you understand?
> You can't just use the highest CPU temp and the highest cooler intake air temp. *Both temps have to be logged/recorded at same time!* If they are not written down at same time you don't know what the cooler intake air temp was when the CPU temp was written down. So you don't have an accurate delta temp. The test results become just another of the many inaccurate test results reviews base their reviews on.


Oh boy, this is difficult. :|

Hmm, what can I do? Do I record them both with my phone side by side? What do I do Doyll?!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AyyMD*
> 
> Oh boy, this is difficult. :|
> 
> Hmm, what can I do? Do I record them both with my phone side by side? What do I do Doyll?!


Most of us have a good enough short term memory to look at both and write them down without forgetting the 2 digit number before we get it written down.


----------



## AyyMD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Most of us have a good enough short term memory to look at both and write them down without forgetting the 2 digit number before we get it written down.


Yeesh, my memory is worse than a stroked out 80 year old who has Alzheimer's. I might just record it then.


----------



## QuacK

Hey @doyll

I recently got this little thing: https://www.amazon.com/Keynice-Thermometer-Temperature-Fahrenheit-Accurate-Black/dp/B01H1RDJOI

Just have a quick (and maybe stupid) question ....

The temperature probe, I just assume it just has to be somewhere inside the case? Or does it need to be touching anything?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AyyMD*
> 
> Yeesh, my memory is worse than a stroked out 80 year old who has Alzheimer's. I might just record it then.


Don't talk about be like that.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> Hey @doyll
> 
> I recently got this little thing: https://www.amazon.com/Keynice-Thermometer-Temperature-Fahrenheit-Accurate-Black/dp/B01H1RDJOI
> 
> Just have a quick (and maybe stupid) question ....
> 
> The temperature probe, I just assume it just has to be somewhere inside the case? Or does it need to be touching anything?


The probe needs to be in the airflow in front of CPU or GPU cooler. We want to monitor the airflow temperature going into them and adjust case airflow to so that the air going into coolers is as close to room ambient as we can get it. Post #1 shows how one of mine is setup. I like to make the setup so there is no exposed metal. That way I can move it around while system is running without worrying about accidentally shorting anything with metal.


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Don't talk about be like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The probe needs to be in the airflow in front of CPU or GPU cooler. We want to monitor the airflow temperature going into them and adjust case airflow to so that the air going into coolers is as close to room ambient as we can get it. Post #1 shows how one of mine is setup. I like to make the setup so there is no exposed metal. That way I can move it around while system is running without worrying about accidentally shorting anything with metal.


Okay thanks.

I think I can read ambient temperature with this meter too, but I will get a seperate one for reading room temperature, and to see how accurate the usb thermometer is.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> Okay thanks.
> 
> I think I can read ambient temperature with this meter too, but I will get a seperate one for reading room temperature, and to see how accurate the usb thermometer is.


I usually set my sensor/probe centered in front of fan 2-3cm. The air i that area is usually a good representation of case airflow into cooler. When testing with GPU under full load I will compare the middle position and also about half way between middle of fan and top edge of back of GPU to see if the heated exhaust from GPU is leaking up and into CPU.


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I usually set my sensor/probe centered in front of fan 2-3cm. The air i that area is usually a good representation of case airflow into cooler. When testing with GPU under full load I will compare the middle position and also about half way between middle of fan and top edge of back of GPU to see if the heated exhaust from GPU is leaking up and into CPU.


Very helpful info








I think my GPU might be exhausting heat towards my CPU aswell.

If you could make pictures of where you place the probe I think it would be helpful for alot of people.


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> Very helpful info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think my GPU might be exhausting heat towards my CPU aswell.
> 
> If you could make pictures of where you place the probe I think it would be helpful for alot of people.


Sorry.. Ignore this post


----------



## Johnatan8

Guys, fan on GPU of an older PC that I have is dying slowly. Two times in past two days it stopped working and caused GOU overheating with burning smell in a room. GPU is Asus nVidia 9600GT the same one like this:



Since It has small cooler is there a way to do something until I buy a new graphic card?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> Guys, fan on GPU of an older PC that I have is dying slowly. Two times in past two days it stopped working and caused GOU overheating with burning smell in a room. GPU is Asus nVidia 9600GT the same one like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Since It has small cooler is there a way to do something until I buy a new graphic card?


What is the diameter of the fan?
Reason I ask is I think you can put a fan over the one that is in there to push air in and through the cooler fins.


----------



## Johnatan8

It's around 80mm... How do you mean to place it over? Just to place it and secure somehow? Should I disconnect firstly this that's built-in since it works sometimes?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> It's around 80mm... How do you mean to place it over? Just to place it and secure somehow? Should I disconnect firstly this that's built-in since it works sometimes?


Yes, I would unplug the stock cooler fan.
Put a 80mm or 90mm fan over the stock fan and secure it with zip-ties, strong rubber bands, or something similar. Just do not use wire or anything that might short out something if it touches anything under the cooler fins.


----------



## AyyMD

I love the R1 so much (also finished the review), it is truly an awesome cooler.


----------



## Johnatan8

I would like to post an update on CPU cooler update. I bought CoolerMaster Hyper 612 v2. and have to say that temps went down drastically. I have basically 15'C on idle and 10'C temperature drop compared with Intel stock cooler.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gregory14*
> 
> I have a 2nd Watercooled i7-4770k computer in a Cosair Vengeance C70 chassis, if your familiar with it, if not, it has 2 side intakes, HDD intakes, 1 rear fan, and I have a 280mm RAD on top pushing air out from the top. I'm planning to add 2 more fans on top for a push/pull, and I'm concerned about intake. The other fans are only 120mm, while 140mm x 4 are on the rad.
> 
> Should I use the rear fan as an intake, thus making the only outlet through the top radiator?
> 
> THanks,
> 
> Gregory14


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> I would like to post an update on CPU cooler update. I bought CoolerMaster Hyper 612 v2. and have to say that temps went down drastically. I have basically 15'C on idle and 10'C temperature drop compared with Intel stock cooler.


Unless your computer is in a room about 12c, your idle is more than 15c.







But it's not uncommon for idle temps show as being lower than they really air. CPU sensors are usually most accurate near peak load temps.

Most have good aftermarket coolers cool better and quieter than stock coolers. It's the reason many of us use them.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> Guys, fan on GPU of an older PC that I have is dying slowly. Two times in past two days it stopped working and caused GOU overheating with burning smell in a room. GPU is Asus nVidia 9600GT the same one like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Since It has small cooler is there a way to do something until I buy a new graphic card?


Goh.. it is possible that Zalman or Silvertone still have something low profile that might fit onthere....
but probably $20 or more; so yeah, strapping on a regular fan for the time being is probably the better solution


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Unless your computer is in a room about 12c, your idle is more than 15c.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not uncommon for idle temps show as being lower than they really air. CPU sensors are usually most accurate near peak load temps.


I have some really good idle temps with room temperature at 16C.

I agree with you though, the actual temps are probably higher than the values that are showed.

The one thing im wondering about is the system temperature sensor value which I highlighted on the screenshot.
According to my mobo's specs this is supposed to be my chassis temperature.

I wonder how accurate this is.
Im still trying to find a good way to put the probe of my usb thermometer on a good spot in my case, but I haven't had much time yet to mess around


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> I have some really good idle temps with room temperature at 16C.
> 
> I agree with you though, the actual temps are probably higher than the values that are showed.
> 
> The one thing im wondering about is the system temperature sensor value which I highlighted on the screenshot.
> According to my mobo's specs this is supposed to be my chassis temperature.
> 
> I wonder how accurate this is.
> Im still trying to find a good way to put the probe of my usb thermometer on a good spot in my case, but I haven't had much time yet to mess around
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


At a guess everything at idle is registering 4-8c lower.

It is obvious your CPU temp reading is low. With your coolant temp being 21.1c .. there is no way the CPU can be cooler than the coolant.







Realistically CPU even at idle will be a couple degrees warmer than coolant .. meaning your 15c CPU reading is about 8c lower than realty.









If your room is actually 16c and system temp reading is 16c at startup (system ha to start and is already warming up before any temperature readings are registered) it is fair to assume it is also showing a degree or two lower than it really is.

If your temp readings are accurate you need to patent your revolutionary cooling system and you will make a fortune!


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> At a guess everything at idle is registering 4-8c lower.
> 
> It is obvious your CPU temp reading is low. With your coolant temp being 21.1c .. there is no way the CPU can be cooler than the coolant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Realistically CPU even at idle will be a couple degrees warmer than coolant .. meaning your 15c CPU reading is about 8c lower than realty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your room is actually 16c and system temp reading is 16c at startup (system ha to start and is already warming up before any temperature readings are registered) it is fair to assume it is also showing a degree or two lower than it really is.
> 
> If your temp readings are accurate you need to patent your revolutionary cooling system and you will make a fortune!


Hahaha you're probably right









Now I am just starting to think whether I left my PC on during the night before taking this screenshot.
Cant remember for sure. If so, it could be my room temperature dropped to a bit lower than 16C during the night.

Cooling system is decent but not revolutionary haha









I'll do some more serious testing later on when I find the time









One thing I am pretty sure about is that the little desk thermometer I have here on my desk should be pretty accurate since 99% of the time it shows exactly the temperature to what my living room thermometer shows and is set to, sometimes its 1-2 degree off but it could also be because i've been playing games or ran some tests on my PC that could heat up the room a bit.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> ...
> 
> Cooling system is decent but not revolutionary haha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sure that you will get much (much) happier from your brand new Corsair H115i + 2 x Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 2000 when you will check-out / redo your delidd...


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> I am sure that you will get much (much) happier from your brand new Corsair H115i + 2 x Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 2000 when you will check-out / redo your delidd...


I will definitely do this when the time is right.

I'm not unhappy with it as of now, but I do feel that there is more potential that is left unused at this moment.

Reseating the cooler might help too.
What bugs me a little is that core 4 usually runs about 10 degrees cooler than the others.

I didn't have this problem after delidding when using my Noctua nh-D15 so maybe the cooler is just leaning more towards one side or something.

I plan to have a look at things with my buddy in a couple of months in the summer.

Not sure yet if that's when I want to recheck the delidd but maybe it's better once we're at it anyway.


----------



## Johnatan8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Unless your computer is in a room about 12c, your idle is more than 15c.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not uncommon for idle temps show as being lower than they really air. CPU sensors are usually most accurate near peak load temps.
> 
> Most have good aftermarket coolers cool better and quieter than stock coolers. It's the reason many of us use them.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QuacK*
> 
> I have some really good idle temps with room temperature at 16C.
> 
> I agree with you though, the actual temps are probably higher than the values that are showed.
> 
> The one thing im wondering about is the system temperature sensor value which I highlighted on the screenshot.
> According to my mobo's specs this is supposed to be my chassis temperature.
> 
> I wonder how accurate this is.
> Im still trying to find a good way to put the probe of my usb thermometer on a good spot in my case, but I haven't had much time yet to mess around


Hahahah. I wrote "I have basically 15'C on idle and 10'C *temperature drop* compared with Intel stock cooler.







.... I have ~42'C at load and 37'C~ at idle... Before coller temps would go up to 58'C at load and ~52'C at idle...


----------



## QuacK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnatan8*
> 
> Hahahah. I wrote "I have basically 15'C on idle and 10'C *temperature drop* compared with Intel stock cooler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... I have ~42'C at load and 37'C~ at idle... Before coller temps would go up to 58'C at load and ~52'C at idle...


Yes Intel stock coolers are crappy. They are good enough for general users but not for people who like to try to maximise the performance that their CPU can actually achieve when properly cooled


----------



## Psilosoph8

When having a radiator as intake on top of the case, is it generally true that one would want to vent the intake air out ASAP if it keeps airflow clean?
I have the radiator intake on top setup, with back exhaust, and plans for two exhaust fans mounted on the side panel directly under the rad, effectively venting it out right as it comes in. is this okay or is there an issue it might cause? I suppose it could create an airflow loop within the case but isnt this a beneficial example of one? I imagine that the side exhaust is far enough away that it won't get pulled back in through the radiator. BTW it's an AIO connected to the CPU, not a radiator in a custom loop


----------



## RnRollie

if you are not blocking the exhaust by putting the case under a desk with its side exhausts to a wall.. and if you are not use weak meh fans..... then that setup should be perfectly fine.

Ok, a (tight) air loop *can* occur , conditions in the room can change because of many factors like seasons, heaters or airco and thus *can* create the perfect conditions for an an eddy to occur.. but i wouldn't be overly worried about it. And it it occurs, a simple deskfan (in summer) slightly angled so it also covers the exhaust side or the inlet top would break that eddy. Even a simple puny USB fan would break the eddy.



And if push comes to shove, flip the fans and thus the direction of the air around (must place filters on the side inlet then)... which may or may not make a difference.

There are a number of other things tha can be done if needed... hoever, dont overthink it... most bridges need only be crossed when you come to them


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Psilosoph8*
> 
> When having a radiator as intake on top of the case, is it generally true that one would want to vent the intake air out ASAP if it keeps airflow clean?
> I have the radiator intake on top setup, with back exhaust, and plans for two exhaust fans mounted on the side panel directly under the rad, effectively venting it out right as it comes in. is this okay or is there an issue it might cause? I suppose it could create an airflow loop within the case but isnt this a beneficial example of one? I imagine that the side exhaust is far enough away that it won't get pulled back in through the radiator. BTW it's an AIO connected to the CPU, not a radiator in a custom loop


What RnRoolie said.

Sometimes under a desk or in a corner I use cardboard to make dividers to keep cool intake air and heated exhaust air separated.


----------



## AyyMD

Which would you say is better Doyll? The Lian-Li PC05S or my EVOLV ATX TG.

Also, what are your thoughts on the Manta?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AyyMD*
> 
> Which would you say is better Doyll? The Lian-Li PC05S or my EVOLV ATX TG.
> 
> Also, what are your thoughts on the Manta?


Wow! They are 3 very different cases both is size and design .. and the only one I have experience with is the Enthoo Evolv ATX non-TG. I like it very much.


----------



## AyyMD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Wow! They are 3 very different cases both is size and design .. and the only one I have experience with is the Enthoo Evolv ATX non-TG. I like it very much.


I love my Evolv so much. It was the one case I bought even after I said no more $100+ cases.


----------



## LostParticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> .. and the only one I have experience with is the Enthoo Evolv ATX non-TG. I like it very much.


Doyll, just out of curiosity, have you ever posted a recent photo of your setup?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostParticle*
> 
> Doyll, just out of curiosity, have you ever posted a recent photo of your setup?


No, I used to post photos of them, but I haven't done so in many years.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Darn, now I want to se a photo of your setup (and I'm sure others do, as well).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Darn, now I want to se a photo of your setup (and I'm sure others do, as well).


My systems are not good looking at all. They are simply functional. I'm packing getting ready to move in less than a month. Maybe after the move when I get settled I'll do some photos.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

While a nice appearance is desirable, function is far more important but, fair ;nuff. We will be waiting.







Good luck with your move!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> While a nice appearance is desirable, function is far more important but, fair ;nuff. We will be waiting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with your move!


Post #48 this thread show my old modified Define R2

Here is one of my Enthoo Primo


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> While a nice appearance is desirable, function is far more important but, fair ;nuff. We will be waiting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with your move!
> 
> 
> 
> Post #48 this thread show my old modified Define R2
> 
> Here is one of my Enthoo Primo
Click to expand...

Wow! Ask and ye shall receive. Thanks!

You can see my current machine down in my sig.


----------



## Johnatan8

We are pleased when doyll posts temps and noise levels. Beauty is inside... This applies for people but also for PCs.


----------



## becks

Hello everyone,

Need some help here with a future build of mine...
Gonna use Fractal design define Nano S for a M-Itx build (Maximus Viii Impact - I7 7700K etc etc ) the build will be water cooled.
Need help in deciding on a configuration for the rads and choosing / positioning fans..

This was my original plan..


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







But I have no idea for fans to start with.. and for the front fans I was thinking about putting them between the front chassis and the front plastic cover which fits..but bothers me in terms of possible performance and those fans might just choke on they'r own heat...


Spoiler: Something like this







Any reply greatly appreciated..

Either that or I will switch to plan B...order some flexible tubing and just do and re-do the whole thing 100 times









Part list (What I have so far)
EK Water Blocks EK-CoolStream SE 240 (Slim Dual) Radiator x2
EK Water Blocks EK-XTOP SPC-60 PWM - Plexi (incl. pump)
EK Water Blocks EK-RES X3 110 Reservoir
EK Water Blocks EK-HD Tube 10/12mm 500mm

Aquacomputer aquaero 6 LT USB Fan-Controller
Aquacomputer Passive heat sink for aquaero 6

The GPU will be more than likely 1080 ti
Ordered some Fujipoly thermal pads 17.0 W/mK to cool MB / GPU
Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut LM for under IHS CPU
GELID Solutions Extreme Performance GC-3 for top CPU and GPU


----------



## doyll

@becks
First drawing will not work very well at all. You have one intake fan and 4 exhaust fans .. meaning your radiators will only have as much air as the 1x back intake and other case vents and leaks can supply .. definitely not enough to supply their needs.

As for your H2o components, I will let @ciarlatano answer. He has much more experience with water cooling components being sold right now. I haven't used component H2o in years.


----------



## becks

@doyll

Thank you for the fast reply. Given the tight space of the case do you have any other suggestion in regards to the air-flow ?
Turn the front radiator the other way round with the fans inside in pull configuration ?
Any 4-pin fans for those radiators cross your mind ? (not really interested in quietness..you can't really have the best of both worlds, performance and silence, so I will have to settle with a middle suite spot.. all trough I incline for performance..)
A fan for the case intake/exhaust (the one at the back.. ) ?

NB. If by any chance the fans suggested are slim and black or black/red - black/purple - black/green etc (any of those variants ) for the color team of the build (the fluid will be pastel purple of some sort ) would be a big PLUS
Thank you again


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> @doyll
> 
> Thank you for the fast reply. Given the tight space of the case do you have any other suggestion in regards to the air-flow ?
> Turn the front radiator the other way round with the fans inside in pull configuration ?
> Any 4-pin fans for those radiators cross your mind ? (not really interested in quietness..you can't really have the best of both worlds, performance and silence, so I will have to settle with a middle suite spot.. all trough I incline for performance..)
> A fan for the case intake/exhaust (the one at the back.. ) ?
> 
> NB. If by any chance the fans suggested are slim and black or black/red - black/purple - black/green etc (any of those variants ) for the color team of the build (the fluid will be pastel purple of some sort ) would be a big PLUS
> Thank you again


ciarlatano can probably help you more than I can. I would think front in with back in and top exhaust, but i would filter the back if it is used as intake. Maybe use a 280 front .. would give both more airflow and cooling.

4-pin are PWM so I assume you want to use PWM fans? Have you looked at Thermalbench fan reviews? There are some very good high performance fans that idle down to very quiet levels, so unless system is working very hard it remains quiet. ML120, Gentle Typhoon, EK Vardar, etc.
http://thermalbench.com/category/fans/


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*


.. I had these in mind:

Corsair CO-9050014WW SP120 High Perf. Edition 120 mm (for rads)
Corsair CO-9050004-WW Air Series AF120 Performance Edition 120mm (for case)

Now I am confused









NB. Just had a look at : NF-F12 industrialPPC-3000 PWM, and they are cheapper than Corsair in my area


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> .. I had these in mind:
> 
> Corsair CO-9050014WW SP120 High Perf. Edition 120 mm (for rads)
> Corsair CO-9050004-WW Air Series AF120 Performance Edition 120mm (for case)
> 
> Now I am confused
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB. Just had a look at : NF-F12 industrialPPC-3000 PWM, and they are cheapper than Corsair in my area


In regards to your color scheme, if you get a fan like the Noiseblocker E-loops, they are super easy to pop the blades off and paint them any color you want


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*


Thank you, these one seems appealing: Noiseblocker Eloop B12-P








and at an acceptable price.


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> Thank you, these one seems appealing: Noiseblocker Eloop B12-P
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and at an acceptable price.


I used the B12-3 in my Blue Fury build and painted the frame blue and loved them.


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*


Nice... +1
Only thing keeping me away from them is noise and / or lack of performance in pull configuration from what I saw on reviews from different websites


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> Nice... +1
> Only thing keeping me away from them is noise and / or lack of performance in pull configuration from what I saw on reviews from different websites


I see the noise you are talking about in several posts. I had one fan set up in pull on the H60 120 rad with no noise. I agree with most that it's radiator/shroud dependant


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*


I mean.. don't take me wrong.. I prefer noise over silence when it comes to (only interested in performance, as I said before I don't think it is possible to have best of both worlds, silent and performance ), but don't feel like its the case here.. and for whatever I will decide to buy in the end depends on my radiators ( which are 22 FPI )

But hopefully with more data / opinions from other members I will be able to make the right decision


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> @doyll
> 
> Thank you for the fast reply. Given the tight space of the case do you have any other suggestion in regards to the air-flow ?
> Turn the front radiator the other way round with the fans inside in pull configuration ?
> Any 4-pin fans for those radiators cross your mind ? (not really interested in quietness..you can't really have the best of both worlds, performance and silence, so I will have to settle with a middle suite spot.. all trough I incline for performance..)
> A fan for the case intake/exhaust (the one at the back.. ) ?
> 
> NB. If by any chance the fans suggested are slim and black or black/red - black/purple - black/green etc (any of those variants ) for the color team of the build (the fluid will be pastel purple of some sort ) would be a big PLUS
> Thank you again


You'll get best cooling performance with all radiator fans as INTAKE.

_*"But, but all the heat will be trapped inside."*_ No, it wont, and i'ld be surprised if the inside of the case would reach 10°C warmer as the air outside the case.

An unobstructed exhaust and all the holes & slits in the case will allow for the surplus air to escape while at the same time reducing dust entering the case.


----------



## becks

@RnRollie

Basically top and front intake....back exhaust...maybe I find a way to turn the power supply with the fan in the case and reverse it to exhaust...
Do you recommend push or pull as the position of the fans on the radiator ? and if it is push do you think putting the front fans between the case and front cover will be viable ?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> .. I had these in mind:
> 
> Corsair CO-9050014WW SP120 High Perf. Edition 120 mm (for rads)
> Corsair CO-9050004-WW Air Series AF120 Performance Edition 120mm (for case)
> 
> Now I am confused
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NB. Just had a look at : NF-F12 industrialPPC-3000 PWM, and they are cheapper than Corsair in my area


The AF is terrible .. and the SP is loud for what it does.

What RnRollie says about intake versus exhaust might be true .. I would guess 20c differnce. The bigger problem is that all the air from 4x intakes fans does not have the exhaust area to match the intake area, meaning a lot more resistantance .. meaning much lower airflow at high rpm than if case has equal amount of exhaust airflow area ansit has intake airflow area.

Let us assume it is only 10c difference. Water cooling is not effected near as much as air cooling by warmer airflow. This means if only 1 radiator is intake and other is exhaust the airflow from one will be mixed with cool air from rear or bottom intake so be even less than 10c warmer going into exhaust radiator. Add advantage is case has more balance intake to exhaust airflow areas.


----------



## becks

What @RnRollie has a point but its bold.. I give you that..

Yours, @doyll has more logic and sense into it and I would think that you are right.

But I still don't know for sure what path to take so I am still waiting for someone to shed some light on it. Maybe @ciarlatano has a tip or 2, and I might end up the day learning something.

Any word of advice on this ones : Noiseblocker Eloop B12-P ?


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Need some help here with a future build of mine...
> Gonna use Fractal design define Nano S for a M-Itx build (Maximus Viii Impact - I7 7700K etc etc ) the build will be water cooled.
> Need help in deciding on a configuration for the rads and choosing / positioning fans..
> 
> This was my original plan..
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I have no idea for fans to start with.. and for the front fans I was thinking about putting them between the front chassis and the front plastic cover which fits..but bothers me in terms of possible performance and those fans might just choke on they'r own heat...
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Something like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any reply greatly appreciated..
> 
> Either that or I will switch to plan B...order some flexible tubing and just do and re-do the whole thing 100 times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part list (What I have so far)
> EK Water Blocks EK-CoolStream SE 240 (Slim Dual) Radiator x2
> EK Water Blocks EK-XTOP SPC-60 PWM - Plexi (incl. pump)
> EK Water Blocks EK-RES X3 110 Reservoir
> EK Water Blocks EK-HD Tube 10/12mm 500mm
> 
> Aquacomputer aquaero 6 LT USB Fan-Controller
> Aquacomputer Passive heat sink for aquaero 6
> 
> The GPU will be more than likely 1080 ti
> Ordered some Fujipoly thermal pads 17.0 W/mK to cool MB / GPU
> Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut LM for under IHS CPU
> GELID Solutions Extreme Performance GC-3 for top CPU and GPU


Hi there

Personally I would run front fans on radiator as intake and top radiator as exhaust and back exhaust fan as exhaust

Regarding the fans,EK Vardar F3 1850RPM seems are good, running them but they're noisy if you are running them above 1350-1450RPM,usually I keep them in idle at 800-900RPM as max and on load I usually run them as max 1350-1400RPM but this largely depends on water delta what I'm getting, but usually my water delta is 5-7°C as max, with slower fan speed water delta is still reasonably at 8-10°C

You will be running Aquaero where you can create virtual sensor,I would suggest get water sensor(I'm using Barrow G1/4 water temperature stop plug sensor), use included sensors for ambient and inside temperature etc

Its very easy to set up and you will see what is best way to run fans like intake or exhaust

If I would change something on yours build then I would try sell these high FPI radiators for something what is less restrictive,because with high FPI radiators you will need to run fans at higher speeds

For fans I like Phanteks PH-F120MP, personally running only Phanteks PH-F120SP fans on bottom radiator and they seems are OK although planning replacing fans for Noiseblocker BlackSilent XLP fans like on bottom and on top and will see if they will be quieter or I will go route of the Phanteks PH-F120MP fans like on top and bottom as well, wish Scythe Gentle Typhoon are available as they seems are best

Here is mine,I will be putting extra GTX1080 FE during this week as PC is used for rendering










Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura


----------



## RnRollie

@doyll , you do know that the air "exiting" the radiator is only a couple degrees warmer as the air "entering", dont you?









Unless one is using hi-FPI & thick rads while having "too little rad" for the heatload.

In fact, a radiator only starts to "work" once the loop temp is higher as the ambient temp. And it's not like it waits till the loop is 50°C over ambient... It kicks in quite early. The loop wants to balance as close to ambient as the radiators allow. And if you have enough raddage it will easily keep the loop at around 10-15°C over ambient with the system under full/stresstesting load. And even with the loop at +15°C over ambient, the air exiting the rad(s) is NOT 15°C over ambient as you would need 100% heat transfer per second for that. ... and that just doesn't happen in this universe because of those pesky laws of physics









The thing is, it works on such a narrow margin, that if you have the air first going through the "first" rad before getting exhausted through the other rad; and thus being *maybe* 2°C warmer before exhausting, then the "second" rad can not be as efficient as the "first" rad... and thus it raises the whole loop temp. Which is why it is more efficient to have all rads as intake.

Note: even in the case of the 2nd rad "eating" the warmer air of the 1st rad, you are still only looking at 2-3, 5°C tops higher as it could be. So, this may all seem trivial, but why settle for less?

As for "flow"... you are looking at a rad + a filter as the intake restrictions.. you'ld be lucky if you get even half of the rated CFM into the case








Which is why having one UNobstructed exhaust + all the other leak points is actually enough to offset the intake in most cases/circumstances.
You know how it works, you are a strong advocate for unobstructed exhausts yourself.

Of course, having more as one UNobstructed exhaust fan/exit to better "balance" is preferable. But a case which has a watercooled CPU and GPU simply runs cooler, as the only "heat"sources remaining are the VRMs and some bits & bobs like a "southbridge" or a harddrive. And those are easily serviced by the airflow, even if the airflow is not as optimised as it could/needs to be in a traditional aircooled case.

That said.. if one overclocks the hell out of it... THEN it is very likely that the VRMS will run hot and a fully optimized airflow becomes almost a must.

So yes, if you want to learn everything about airflow, listen to doyll, he has probably forgotten more about fan/airflow than i have ever learned








I will rarely oppose him









However, there are a few differences & particularities with Watercooling affecting the overal picture.... and rad/fan placement is one of them


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> @doyll , you do know that the air "exiting" the radiator is only a couple degrees warmer as the air "entering", dont you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Unless one is using hi-FPI & thick rads while having "too little rad" for the heatload.
> 
> In fact, a radiator only starts to "work" once the loop temp is higher as the ambient temp. And it's not like it waits till the loop is 50°C over ambient... It kicks in quite early. The loop wants to balance as close to ambient as the radiators allow. And if you have enough raddage it will easily keep the loop at around 10-15°C over ambient with the system under full/stresstesting load. And even with the loop at +15°C over ambient, the air exiting the rad(s) is NOT 15°C over ambient as you would need 100% heat transfer per second for that. ... and that just doesn't happen in this universe because of those pesky laws of physics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, it works on such a narrow margin, that if you have the air first going through the "first" rad before getting exhausted through the other rad; and thus being *maybe* 2°C warmer before exhausting, then the "second" rad can not be as efficient as the "first" rad... and thus it raises the whole loop temp. Which is why it is more efficient to have all rads as intake.
> 
> Note: even in the case of the 2nd rad "eating" the warmer air of the 1st rad, you are still only looking at 2-3, 5°C tops higher as it could be. So, this may all seem trivial, but why settle for less?
> 
> As for "flow"... you are looking at a rad + a filter as the intake restrictions.. you'ld be lucky if you get even half of the rated CFM into the case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why having one UNobstructed exhaust + all the other leak points is actually enough to offset the intake in most cases/circumstances.
> You know how it works, you are a strong advocate for unobstructed exhausts yourself.
> 
> Of course, having more as one UNobstructed exhaust fan/exit to better "balance" is preferable. But a case which has a watercooled CPU and GPU simply runs cooler, as the only "heat"sources remaining are the VRMs and some bits & bobs like a "southbridge" or a harddrive. And those are easily serviced by the airflow, even if the airflow is not as optimised as it could/needs to be in a traditional aircooled case.
> 
> 
> 
> That said.. if one overclocks the hell out of it... THEN it is very likely that the VRMS will run hot and a fully optimized airflow becomes almost a must.
> 
> So yes, if you want to learn everything about airflow, listen to doyll, he has probably forgotten more about fan/airflow than i have ever learned
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will rarely oppose him
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, there are a few differences & particularities with Watercooling affecting the overal picture.... and rad/fan placement is one of them


Why are you arguing with me? You keep reinforcing that the difference between intake and exhaust sides radiator is only a couple degrees and we both know H2o cooling is not affected by air temperture as much as air cooling is, so why are you so worried about the 2c difference in case air temp?

As for airflow, I agree with even half the rated CFM being lucky. but half of rated CFM for 2x fans is 1x fan exhaust. That leave the 2x top intakes with only what can leak out cracks, holes and bottom vent already half blocked by small space created by case feet.

Balancing case airflow with all intakes filters is what is important here, and the best way to achieve this is front in, bottom or back in and top out.

If we have 4x intake with only 1x (2x with bottom vent) exhaust will only flow a maximum of 2x vents. If we have 2x front intake and 1x back intake with 2x top exhaust we have 3x intke to 2x exhaust.

For lowest fan noise and best overall airflow we want intake and exhaust to be about the same with intake having a slightly higher flow potential so air leaks out cracks and holes instead of in.


----------



## becks

@jura11
@RnRollie
@doyll

Thanks all for the advice's so far...
Think at the end of the day I will go with plan B and buy some flexible tubing and test for myself the different suggestions offered here and see what works best for my case and than give you some feedback.
Theory is one and practice is a whole new thing...


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> @jura11
> @RnRollie
> @doyll
> 
> Thanks all for the advice's so far...
> Think at the end of the day I will go with plan B and buy some flexible tubing and test for myself the different suggestions offered here and see what works best for my case and than give you some feedback.
> Theory is one and practice is a whole new thing...


Hi there

I would do same,but problem is usually you can't use flexible fittings with hard tube fittings due this you need decide what is best and if you are happy then I would stay with best option there

But still I would with front as intake and top as exhaust and fans there is lots of good fans, EK Vardar F3 1850RPM many use as I do, if noise is not issue then I would go with them,if noise is issue then check Thermalbench.com for best fans

Yup,theory is one thing but in practice you will find what is best or worse for you and yours case

My only recommendation, get better radiators something like these
XSPC RX V3, HWLabs Black Ice Nemesis GTX and HWLabs Black Ice Nemesis GTS and few others there

Not sure of you can use thicker radiator, then I would have look on Mayhem Havoc or Coolgate radiator, both are very cheap radiators but as above these radiators like I mentioned before and above

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura


----------



## becks

@jura11

Unfortunately I am on a budget so I wont be able to change the radiators till further down the line..









For fans after reading like 12 reviews I decided to go with NF-F12 IndustrialPPC 3000RPM PWM 120mm High Performance Fan and use NA-SAVP1 chromax.black Anti-Vibration Pads so it goes well with my theme.
They are PWN...they are rated at 3000 rpm ..109.8 CFM... 7.63 mm H2O and yes they are noisy but only once you get at the upper 2300-3000 rpm..
Added them in my basket







and if nobody changes my mind with a good argument till the end of the month when I submit the order I will stick with them


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> @jura11
> 
> Unfortunately I am on a budget so I wont be able to change the radiators till further down the line..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For fans after reading like 12 reviews I decided to go with NF-F12 IndustrialPPC 3000RPM PWM 120mm High Performance Fan and use NA-SAVP1 chromax.black Anti-Vibration Pads so it goes well with my theme.
> They are PWN...they are rated at 3000 rpm ..109.8 CFM... 7.63 mm H2O and yes they are noisy but only once you get at the upper 2300-3000 rpm..
> Added them in my basket
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and if nobody changes my mind with a good argument till the end of the month when I submit the order I will stick with them


Hi there

I would rather invest to better radiators than expensive Noctua fans, if you don't mind noise

But that's me,I will post my results in gaming and how temps are and speed of fans from datalog on Aquaero

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura


----------



## becks

@jura11

If you can post some logs it would be great so I can make a larger picture in my head of what needs doing, at the moment I found a really good offer and all 6 Noctua fans that I need would be cheaper than a single radiator.
Will see how it goes..if I can maintain (and my logic says that I will ) the water temperature between 5-10 Celsius above ambient during gaming and 10-18 under stress testing... I have reached my goal, and will settle


----------



## becks

My Fujipoly thermal pads 17.0 W/mK arrived today...very disappointed with the "size of the package" for the money paid (50 pounds...+20 pounds custom tax) but hopefully I will be abble to justify it by a dramatic drop in temperatures...or ill end up cursing this day


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> @jura11
> 
> Unfortunately I am on a budget so I wont be able to change the radiators till further down the line..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For fans after reading like 12 reviews I decided to go with NF-F12 IndustrialPPC 3000RPM PWM 120mm High Performance Fan and use NA-SAVP1 chromax.black Anti-Vibration Pads so it goes well with my theme.
> They are PWN...they are rated at 3000 rpm ..109.8 CFM... 7.63 mm H2O and yes they are noisy but only once you get at the upper 2300-3000 rpm..
> Added them in my basket
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and if nobody changes my mind with a good argument till the end of the month when I submit the order I will stick with them


How much are the fans going to cost?

And those fans will not be quiet even at very low speeds. Sure, they are very good fans, but they are going to be very loud!
Better radiators will cool just as well or better with fans making half as much noise.


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*


6 fans + 48 Anti-Vibration Pads + shipping is around £90

For comparison:

Black Ice Nemesis 240 GTR Radiator is £87.55 + shipping + Cost of fans
Black Ice Nemesis Radiator GTS 240 £45.64 + shipping + Cost of fans
Black Ice Nemesis GTX 240 Radiator £72.00 + shipping + Cost of fans

If you have any suggestion which is better at performance and more cost effective please tell me. But as it is now seems the best deal.

NB. The case is very small as it is so the radiators need to be Slim or its a No No


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> 6 fans + 48 Anti-Vibration Pads + shipping is around £90
> 
> For comparison:
> 
> Black Ice Nemesis 240 GTR Radiator is £87.55 + shipping + Cost of fans
> Black Ice Nemesis Radiator GTS 240 £45.64 + shipping + Cost of fans
> Black Ice Nemesis GTX 240 Radiator £72.00 + shipping + Cost of fans
> 
> If you have any suggestion which is better at performance and more cost effective please tell me. But as it is now seems the best deal.
> 
> NB. The case is very small as it is so the radiators need to be Slim or its a No No


If you can really get NH-F12iPPC 3000rpm PWM for $15.00 each I suggest you buy 100 and re-sell them at a profit. They normally sell for around $25 each, so sell them for $20 and make $5 each profit. That is $500 profit on 100 fans plus whatever you make from the radiators you have now will more than pay for good radiators and leave you with money left over.


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*


I've only tried to sell something on Ebay once...
Only once and had enough...

I don't like the hassle of the new "buyer is always right: ...hey look! you didn't send it in a pink box, I want full refund, and You! pay for the return"
No thank you...

Edit. That is if the offer holds on till the end of month when I submit the order. If not I will have to pay the full price £22 / Fan
So I am still open to suggestions, I have not closed the case yet


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> @jura11
> 
> If you can post some logs it would be great so I can make a larger picture in my head of what needs doing, at the moment I found a really good offer and all 6 Noctua fans that I need would be cheaper than a single radiator.
> Will see how it goes..if I can maintain (and my logic says that I will ) the water temperature between 5-10 Celsius above ambient during gaming and 10-18 under stress testing... I have reached my goal, and will settle


Hi there

Here is my log from gaming during



I would say,depends on radiators,fans and other components and you should be able have good water delta,but as always depends on yours ambient temperature as well

Currently have EK XE360 on top,but I would be tearing down loop and will be putting there Mayhem Havoc 360 or HWLabs radiator as I don't like to run fans high or higher,during the gaming my temps are great,during the rendering are good as well and during the [email protected] are still OK,but I need to crank fans at 1400-1500RPM

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura


----------



## jura11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> 6 fans + 48 Anti-Vibration Pads + shipping is around £90
> 
> For comparison:
> 
> Black Ice Nemesis 240 GTR Radiator is £87.55 + shipping + Cost of fans
> Black Ice Nemesis Radiator GTS 240 £45.64 + shipping + Cost of fans
> Black Ice Nemesis GTX 240 Radiator £72.00 + shipping + Cost of fans
> 
> If you have any suggestion which is better at performance and more cost effective please tell me. But as it is now seems the best deal.
> 
> NB. The case is very small as it is so the radiators need to be Slim or its a No No


Hi there

I would have look on these radiators there

http://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Magicool-G2-SLIM-240mm-Radiator_48575.html
https://mayhems.co.uk/radiators/darkside-dual-lp240-extra-slim-radiator/

They're still 17FPI radiators,but should perform better than EK SE240

Agree HWLbas are expensive over here,but they're best on market without the questions and regarding the fans,which I would use have look on these which I will be using Noiseblocker
BlackSilent Fan XLP Fan - 120mm PWM (2000rpm) but there are so many fans which would work better and are similarly cheap and I'm sure @doyll would help you with choosing right ones

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/noiseblocker-blacksilent-fan-xlp-fan-120mm-pwm-2000rpm-fg-023-nb.html

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura


----------



## becks

@jura11

Thank you again, I will have at look at those when I have a minute.


----------



## becks

Seeing this reviews has made me second doubt myself..I mean..I prefer noise over silence when it comes to performance...But how much more noise is to much..


Spoiler: Noctua NF-F12 industrialPPC 3000rpm PWM













Spoiler: Corsair Air Series AF120 Performance Edition













Spoiler: Corsair Air Series SP120 High Performance Edition













Spoiler: Noiseblocker eLoop B12-P











Waiting advice's...


----------



## jura11

@becks

I wouldn't pay too much attention to YT reviews as YT can paint nicer picture of noise and YT usually degrade sound etc

Have look my previous EK Vardar F3 1850RPM fans which I run on my Raijintek Morpheus,there these fans has been pretty quiet at 1200-1400RPM and at 1000RPM they're been very quiet,but after I went with custom water loop I thought so they will be quiet as well, what I mistake,on radiator they're noisy at 1000-1200RPM and at 1450-1600RPM they are very noisy

Same can apply for any fan,I would pay more attention to reviews of fans and how they're tested or check thermalbench.com for review of fans on radiator and fans itself

And personally I wouldn't touch Corsair fans, but that's me

Check thermalbench.com for fan reviews and me personally,bought Noiseblocker BlackSilent XLP 2000RPM PWM fans, I will be getting too Phanteks PH-F120MP and Noiseblocker NB eLoop as well

Noctua fans, they are expensive and usually you can find similar fans which perform similarly and cost less as well

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jura11*


Keep us up to date when your fans come in and let us know what you think of them


----------



## jura11

@becks

I would recommend creating separate thread on this as this thread is more about air cooling than about the water cooling

I will do separate thread and post my review or my view on the fans, how they sounds on radiator and what performance is it

My EK XE360 is 16FPI

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura


----------



## doyll

Listen to what jura11 says. He is a good source of accurate and honest daily use of products he has tried.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GunStar0ne*
> 
> I'm not impressed with the noise output vs airflow of the Phantek F140SP fans I upgrade to on my Evolv ATX Tempered Glass. As soon as I put the filter and front panel on, even at 50% speed through the Phantek PWM Hub, the fans still generate more noise then I like. My Gelid fans are better then these, what a joke of an upgrade


What fans did your Evolv ATX TG come with? My stndard Evolv ATX came with PH-F140SP fans. Did your case come with newer no model number fan that is similar PH-F140SP with an impeller similar to PH-F140MP fans? I have used PH-F140MP and PH-F140SP, but not the no model number fans.

Based on the information presented your comparison is a rather a joke and not really a reasonable comparison of the fans.

Phanteks PWM fan hub is is a variable voltage control hub using PWM signal to vary the voltage. 50% PWM signal into the fan hub delivers from 6v to 10v depending on what the total amp load of fans plugged into hub.

Did you use your Gelid fans in the same application as the PH-F140SP fans with both running at same RPM?


----------



## becks

Just a little update.. I am about to order 7 fans.. cause information on internet is so ambiguous and differs 180 degrees from review to review that I have decided I will find the one I like and makes my kind of sound








If you feel like I should remove or add some fans into the "To be tested" list let me know..

Here it is:

Phanteks PH-F120MP_BK

Noiseblocker ITR-B12-P - NB-eLoop Fan B12-P

Corsair Air Series SP120 PWM High Performance Edition

Corsair CO-9050041-WW ML Series ML120 Pro LED

Noctua NF-F12 industrialPPC-3000 PWM

EK Water Blocks EK-Furious Vardar FF5-120


----------



## jura11

@becks

Swapped EK Vardar F3 1850RPM for Noiseblocker BlackSilent Fan XL-P PWM 1000-2000RPM and must admit,they're quiet and no whine at all

Difference in noise, with EK Vardar F3 1850RPM you will hear whine, with Noiseblocker you only hear air passing through the radiator which is pretty nice, at 1000-1200RPM you are not hear them at all and my PC is located about 45-50cm where I sit

At 1350RPM they're still quiet and quieter than EK Vardar F3 1850RPM at same RPM, at 1500RPM you can hear them, noise is OK(noise is only air passing through the radiator) and still is not pronounced or loud as on F3 1850RPM

But still for £5.99 per fan is great value fan for money

Wish I have some low FPI radiator where I could test both fans

Tried few benches and difference in temps is minimal or there is no difference

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura


----------



## Arengeta

becks try getting yourself a gentle typhoon as well.

https://www.amazon.com/Nidec-Servo-GentleTyphoon-120mm-D1225C12B4AP-52/dp/B01KU99NTO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1489487686&sr=8-4&keywords=gentle+typhoon


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> Phanteks PH-F120MP_BK
> 
> Noiseblocker ITR-B12-P - NB-eLoop Fan B12-P
> 
> Corsair Air Series SP120 PWM High Performance Edition
> 
> Corsair CO-9050041-WW ML Series ML120 Pro LED
> 
> Noctua NF-F12 industrialPPC-3000 PWM
> 
> EK-Furious Vardar FF5-120


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jura11*


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arengeta*


Thank you both, I will try and get 1 of the Black Silent as well.
Unfortunately the only Gently Typhoon I can find in my area at the moment is: Scythe - Case Fan - 120 mm - 1150 RPM - Gentle Typhoon - D1225C12B3AP


----------



## becks

And I'm ready for some testing !










Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!










Testing done and....The winner *for me* is Noctua, hands down.

Tested using myself and girlfriend as test subjects.
Had a look at aesthetics, noise in free air....noise on rad pull... noise on rad push.. feel the "wind" with the palm... done the paper test (at different distances away) and voted our conclusions.

At the moment I have a Noctua NH-D14 Fan cooler in my PC so took that as noise reference.

Hands down for Noctua cause they definitely impressed me, not only that it pushes considerably more air than the others but the fact that *in my tests* it has beaten the others at lower speeds and noise level ( 1900RPM noctua moves the paper a bit more at 30 cm thru radiator than Corsair CO-9050041-WW ML120 PRO at 2450RPM )
The Noctua I had in hand manages to be very quiet up until 1600 RPM (and much pleasant noise at full RPM than the others, but this is a matter of taste) and...as *MIN RPM its the best from all of them as well... managing to go at 284 RPM*'s at 18% (No problem with start-stop at this rpm)



Spoiler: Proof Noctua 284 RPM


----------



## kivikas14

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Probably between fan and radiator. Will stop air leaking out instead of going through radiator and will increase distance from fan to radiator .. which often lowers noise level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Case Bottom Spacing Effect on Airflow to Bottom Fans*
> 
> 
> Be creative when looking for spacers .. bottle caps, arisol paint can caps, hockey pucks, little brother's building blocks, etc. will all work.
> 
> *Grill & Filter Effect on Airflow & Noise level*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?area=en&tid=wh_chessis
> Scroll down to see how air flows through round wire grill versus punched metal grill.
> 
> 
> https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Effects-of-Grill-Patterns-on-Fan-Performance-Noise-107/
> 
> Here is a drawing of basic grill mesh designs showing what their open area / airflow area is. Notice hexagonal / honeycomb patterns have much more open area for air to flow through.





+rep









I have done this mod quite a long time ago to my Thermaltake Tsunami case, which was notorious for noise. Anyhow, I didn´t dare to butcher the Fractal R4 until yesterday, finally got fed up of occasional humming noise from side fan and quite loud noise from bottom intake. So bought a dremel and most probably pissed off all my neighbors on Sunday, dremelling away rear, side and both bottom fan grills. Result looks quite badass, there is no humming/whirling noise anymore. The airflow increased also quite a lot as well, previously it was barely noticeable with hand at same low noise RPM.
Phone shot of the result:


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kivikas14*
> 
> +rep
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have done this mod quite a long time ago to my Thermaltake Tsunami case, which was notorious for noise. Anyhow, I didn´t dare to butcher the Fractal R4 until yesterday, finally got fed up of occasional humming noise from side fan and quite loud noise from bottom intake. So bought a dremel and most probably pissed off all my neighbors on Sunday, dremelling away rear, side and both bottom fan grills. Result looks quite badass, there is no humming/whirling noise anymore. The airflow increased also quite a lot as well, previously it was barely noticeable with hand at same low noise RPM.
> Phone shot of the result:


Thanks for your post!








Always good to hear others results to my findings. It really is amazing how much even a simple punched metal grill increases noise and lowers airflow. Many people don't believe me and others even though the facts support how much better cooling and quieter a case is with vents removed. I always leave the filters on intakes to keep dust out.


----------



## Lobuttomize

How would a 90 degree turn have an affect on a fans CPM? My case (In win 509) draws air in from the side of the front and I've been thinking about how that could decrease the performance of the fans compared to a case like the Corsair 750D airflow edition where it's straight on air through a mesh. On the right you can see the openings where the air is mainly allowed in through.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lobuttomize*
> 
> How would a 90 degree turn have an affect on a fans CPM? My case (In win 509) draws air in from the side of the front and I've been thinking about how that could decrease the performance of the fans compared to a case like the Corsair 750D airflow edition where it's straight on air through a mesh. On the right you can see the openings where the air is mainly allowed in through.


I'm confused. the pictured case has H2O cooling and your sig show a Mugen 5.








I have never used and In Win case, but from looking at them they seem to have rather power airflow design and while they work okay and look great, their airflow looks rather poor, especially for air cooling. I might be wrong, and the way to figure it all out is monitor case airflow temps into CPU and GPU cooler with different fan configurations. If you haven't already read the 5th post in this thread, it is about case airflow and how to set it up. The guide is for more conventional front to back or front/bottom to back/top vented cases, so keep that in mind when applying the principles to your In Win case.


----------



## SteelBox

- I have mounted Fractal design GP-14 on the bottom of Define R5. Will it last without problems (noise, durabilty) considering it is a hydraulic bearing? Would it be better to place Noctua (SSO bearing) on that position?

- If I connect my Noctua redux 12cm (700rpm) to a define R5 fan controller it will be operational only on 12V?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SteelBox*
> 
> - I have mounted Fractal design GP-14 on the bottom of Define R5. Will it last without problems (noise, durabilty) considering it is a hydraulic bearing? Would it be better to place Noctua (SSO bearing) on that position?
> 
> - If I connect my Noctua redux 12cm (700rpm) to a define R5 fan controller it will be operational only on 12V?


You should be fine with the fans mounted horizontal.

I think the R5 built in fan controller is voltage control, so it has 3 voltage settings with fastest being 12v.


----------



## Duality92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You should be fine with the fans mounted horizontal.
> 
> I think the R5 built in fan controller is voltage control, so it has 3 voltage settings with fastest being 12v.


That's correct for the R5 fan controller. Fractal Design uses the same controller in many cases.

Note that in 5V mode, some fans won't start at the voltage, this is easily remedied by putting the fan controller to 12v and putting it back to 5v.


----------



## Lobuttomize

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I'm confused. the pictured case has H2O cooling and your sig show a Mugen 5.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have never used and In Win case, but from looking at them they seem to have rather power airflow design and while they work okay and look great, their airflow looks rather poor, especially for air cooling. I might be wrong, and the way to figure it all out is monitor case airflow temps into CPU and GPU cooler with different fan configurations. If you haven't already read the 5th post in this thread, it is about case airflow and how to set it up. The guide is for more conventional front to back or front/bottom to back/top vented cases, so keep that in mind when applying the principles to your In Win case.


It's just a picture from google to show the way air is allowed in through the front.


----------



## SteelBox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You should be fine with the fans mounted horizontal.
> 
> I think the R5 built in fan controller is voltage control, so it has 3 voltage settings with fastest being 12v.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Duality92*
> 
> That's correct for the R5 fan controller. Fractal Design uses the same controller in many cases.
> 
> Note that in 5V mode, some fans won't start at the voltage, this is easily remedied by putting the fan controller to 12v and putting it back to 5v.


I read that these FD fans after some time in horizontal mode are know to develop noise problem. So it is OK?

Problem with Nocuta is that I have some other fans connectod to fan controller, I will need to find some other solution.

Also I need for my Define R5 some large fan filter on top but I cannot find any affordable (I know it has on Demcifilter but they are very expensive). I was thinking of cutting something like this but I don`t know will hole on net be to large.


----------



## czin125

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QvPslL9WHs

What if you split one of these fans into two and put a radiator between it vs a normal push/radiator/pull ? Would that be significant of an improvement or possibly worse?


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czin125*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QvPslL9WHs
> 
> What if you split one of these fans into two and put a radiator between it vs a normal push/radiator/pull ? Would that be significant of an improvement or possibly worse?


Interesting idea. I'd like to read the results of this as well. The problem is, I don't ever remember seeing a SanAce or Delta fan that was contra-rotating.

I would think whatever rotational energy the output of a fan had would be negated by the time it went thru a heatsink/radiator assembly.


----------



## doyll

What 8051 said. The cooler / radiator straightens the airflow making counter-rotating fan a moot point.


----------



## AyyMD

So I'm dealing with some guy (probably a Corsair fanboy) who's saying this:
Quote:


> Looking at stats, the highest speed version of the (Scythe) GT is 69 CFM airflow, and 2.9mm H2O static pressure.
> In comparison the ML120 is up to 75 CFM, and up to 4.2mm H2O.
> So the ML120 is quite a bit better.


Does anyone have any proof that the GTs actually destroying everything else (incl. the ML120)? Possibly you @doyll?









*EDIT:* Never mind, I forgot @Ehume has that 120mm fan review. That's what I used to shoot him down.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AyyMD*
> 
> So I'm dealing with some guy (probably a Corsair fanboy) who's saying this:
> Does anyone have any proof that the GTs actually destroying everything else (incl. the ML120)? Possibly you @doyll?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT:* Never mind, I forgot @Ehume has that 120mm fan review. That's what I used to shoot him down.


Geggeg of Thermalbench has tested both on radiator at various speeds .. not a lot of difference but ML has a little better mid-range performance. Just remember, sound level has to be 3db or more or less for ears to hear a difference.


http://thermalbench.com/2016/07/12/corsair-ml120-pro-120-mm-fan/3/


----------



## dirtyred

I've got 2 thermometers that were used in a medical laboratory for fridges. Both can monitor 2 different temperatures: inside and outside. I've placed both on the top of the case just to be sure they are equally accurate. One of the wire sensors are inside the case hanged from the top to between the front intake and the CPU cooler. The other one is right at the rear exhaust.

Ambient temperature is 26 °C.
Prime95 ran for around 30 minutes.
Max core and package temperature was 83 °C on average, 85 °C max.
The measurements were performed with case closed and fans on auto.

Inside the case (between intake and CPU cooler) temperature is about 1 °C higher then the ambient: 26.7 °C. I find this either extremely good or really odd (seems too good to be true but maybe I have really good airflow).
Exhausted air temperature is 33 °C which I find really low. 50 °C difference between CPU package and exhaust makes me question if the cooler is transferring heat away efficiently.

Here are some pictures in case I wasn't completely clear (In temperature is ambient, Out is case or exhaust temperature):





Do you think these temperatures are perfectly fine or something is suspicious?


----------



## Luckbad

Temps on the CPU seem a bit high for whatever the monstrosity of a setup you have there is.

If you put your hand behind the rad, is the air hot? I'm guessing not. You might not have a good thermal paste job or something.


----------



## doyll

Looking at the thermometer readout I see
25.9c & 26.2c in
31..8c & 26.?c out .. can't read the tenths on last one.
The intake temps may be slightly high on top of case. Maybe set one unit in front of intake vents.

The 31.8 is probably about right. There is a lot of airflow through the fins so the air temp coming out of cooler is not a huge amount higher then cooler intake.

I'm assuming this is only CPU load testing, not CPU and GPU ??

if I remember correctly you were having a slow climb for 25-30 minutes to reach equilibrium ?? What do cooler / case exhaust temps do during this time?

7700K is 4.5GHz stock so 4.7GHz is no much OC. How much did you raise voltage?

What are the temps if CPU is running stock?


----------



## marn3us

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Geggeg of Thermalbench has tested both on radiator at various speeds .. not a lot of difference but ML has a little better mid-range performance. Just remember, sound level has to be 3db or more or less for ears to hear a difference.
> 
> 
> http://thermalbench.com/2016/07/12/corsair-ml120-pro-120-mm-fan/3/


I can confirm that the ML120's are amazing.

I really like the GTs and the Vardars but a couple weeks ago I bought an ML120 just for the sake of trying and I was amazed. They are extremely quiet and can go down until 280rpm with 0 bearing/clicling noise (Vardars and many other fans including noctuas bother me with their ticking sound at extremely low rpm).

That guy saying that the "GT destroy all the other fans" was clearly a fanboy, just like the Corsair guy who said the ML120's are better just by looking at the specs


----------



## clarifiante

i have ML140´s as case fans behind demcifilters for intake which if i am reading doyll´s post on airflow restriction correctly - is reducing airflow by 35%. does this mean that i should adjust for a more aggressive fan curve to compensate?


----------



## dirtyred

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Looking at the thermometer readout I see
> 25.9c & 26.2c in
> 31..8c & 26.?c out .. can't read the tenths on last one.
> The intake temps may be slightly high on top of case. Maybe set one unit in front of intake vents.
> 
> The 31.8 is probably about right. There is a lot of airflow through the fins so the air temp coming out of cooler is not a huge amount higher then cooler intake.
> 
> I'm assuming this is only CPU load testing, not CPU and GPU ??
> 
> if I remember correctly you were having a slow climb for 25-30 minutes to reach equilibrium ?? What do cooler / case exhaust temps do during this time?
> 
> 7700K is 4.5GHz stock so 4.7GHz is no much OC. How much did you raise voltage?
> 
> What are the temps if CPU is running stock?


The In temps are the ambient on both thermometers, only their sensors are in different places: 1 is between intake and cooler, the other one right at the exhaust fan stuck in the grille.
The tenths are not that relevant as these devices are decommissioned but still should be accurate to 1 °C

Yes, the CPU was measured during a 30 minute Prime95 non-avx stress test, GPU was idle. It did not have a slow temperature climb, it's pretty much instant (or as fast as the sensors on the wire can equalize, usually a 2-3 minutes). I just ran Prime95 for 30 minutes to be sure because it was too suspicious.

The exhaust was 33 °C, ambient was 26 °C, air between intake and cooler fan was 26.7 °C.

The 7700K was running on 4.8 GHz @ 1.25 (BIOS) and rougly the same (1.232 - 1.248 V) during stress test. Under AVX load it's usually 1.248 - 1.264 V but that does not apply in this case.

On stock the temps are pretty much the same as I never run the fans on maximum but on a generous low curve to keep it below 80 °C and to keep the noise down (during Prime95 it's roughly around 75-85%, the Phanteks fans are around 1200-1300 RPM). Probably I should redo the test with fans on full speed. But the most important question for me was whether or not these ambient/intake/exhaust temps are acceptable, mostly the intake/exhaust small difference.

*EDIT*: Redid the test and the temperatures are the same. Moved one of the ambient sensors to the front of the case and shows only 0.5 °C less then the one on the top of the case (but that's within the margin of error). Ambient 26 °C, case 27 °C, exhaust 33 °C, CPU on 82-85 °C during Prime95 (v28.1, non-avx, FFT 1344 in-place).

I still think that the exhaust air should be much warmer if the cooler is taking away all that heat from the CPU.

*EDIT2*: On stock CPU core temps are around 70-72 °C. CPU is running on 4.4 GHz @ 1.152-1.168 V (adaptive 1.2 V, auto voltage was giving rounding errors instantly) under Prime95 (non-avx). Ambient 26 °C, case 27 °C, exhaust 32 °C.

*EDIT3*: Still almost on stock but manually set clock to 4.5 GHz @ 1.152-1.168 V. Only difference is a silent custom fan curve. Fans: 1 intake 900 RPM, 1 intake 700 RPM, exhaust 800 RPM, CPU on 750 RPM. CPU core temperatures only 72-75 °C, *only 3 °C higher than with fans on full speed*. Strange!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dirtyred*
> 
> The In temps are the ambient on both thermometers, only their sensors are in different places: 1 is between intake and cooler, the other one right at the exhaust fan stuck in the grille.
> The tenths are not that relevant as these devices are decommissioned but still should be accurate to 1 °C
> 
> Yes, the CPU was measured during a 30 minute Prime95 non-avx stress test, GPU was idle. It did not have a slow temperature climb, it's pretty much instant (or as fast as the sensors on the wire can equalize, usually a 2-3 minutes). I just ran Prime95 for 30 minutes to be sure because it was too suspicious.
> 
> The exhaust was 33 °C, ambient was 26 °C, air between intake and cooler fan was 26.7 °C.
> 
> The 7700K was running on 4.8 GHz @ 1.25 (BIOS) and rougly the same (1.232 - 1.248 V) during stress test. Under AVX load it's usually 1.248 - 1.264 V but that does not apply in this case.
> 
> On stock the temps are pretty much the same as I never run the fans on maximum but on a generous low curve to keep it below 80 °C and to keep the noise down (during Prime95 it's roughly around 75-85%, the Phanteks fans are around 1200-1300 RPM). Probably I should redo the test with fans on full speed. But the most important question for me was whether or not these ambient/intake/exhaust temps are acceptable, mostly the intake/exhaust small difference.
> 
> *EDIT*: Redid the test and the temperatures are the same. Moved one of the ambient sensors to the front of the case and shows only 0.5 °C less then the one on the top of the case (but that's within the margin of error). Ambient 26 °C, case 27 °C, exhaust 33 °C, CPU on 82-85 °C during Prime95 (v28.1, non-avx, FFT 1344 in-place).
> 
> I still think that the exhaust air should be much warmer if the cooler is taking away all that heat from the CPU.
> 
> *EDIT2*: On stock CPU core temps are around 70-72 °C. CPU is running on 4.4 GHz @ 1.152-1.168 V (adaptive 1.2 V, auto voltage was giving rounding errors instantly) under Prime95 (non-avx). Ambient 26 °C, case 27 °C, exhaust 32 °C.
> 
> *EDIT3*: Still almost on stock but manually set clock to 4.5 GHz @ 1.152-1.168 V. Only difference is a silent custom fan curve. Fans: 1 intake 900 RPM, 1 intake 700 RPM, exhaust 800 RPM, CPU on 750 RPM. CPU core temperatures only 72-75 °C, *only 3 °C higher than with fans on full speed*. Strange!


I was assuming you had fans at full speed for the 83c tests results.

The air temp difference of 1c is good.

1c tolerance of error is +/-1c ?? .. at least that's what I use. But I use thermometer readings to 0.1c to keep the tolerance as little as possible.

26c to 27c is very good and 27c into cooler with 33c out of cooler is about right. Your OC voltage increase is not pushing very high heat wattage to the cooler, so cooler is not raising air temp a huge amount. We need to keep in mind the heatpipes do not get as hot as the CPU. Their hottest point is in the cooler base over CPU where liquid coolant is vaporized and starts flowing toward ends of heatpipes, condense and is wicked back toward base / CPU all the while cooling even more.


----------



## dirtyred

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I was assuming you had fans at full speed for the 83c tests results.
> 
> The air temp difference of 1c is good.
> 
> 1c tolerance of error is +/-1c ?? .. at least that's what I use. But I use thermometer readings to 0.1c to keep the tolerance as little as possible.
> 
> 26c to 27c is very good and 27c into cooler with 33c out of cooler is about right. Your OC voltage increase is not pushing very high heat wattage to the cooler, so cooler is not raising air temp a huge amount. We need to keep in mind the heatpipes do not get as hot as the CPU. Their hottest point is in the cooler base over CPU where liquid coolant is vaporized and starts flowing toward ends of heatpipes, condense and is wicked back toward base / CPU all the while cooling even more.


Between 80-85% and 100% fan speed there's not a huge difference, only around 3-5 °C.

I don't know the exact accuracy of these thermometers and how well calibrated are. One is definetly calibrated (showing exactly the same temperature on both of it's sensors), the other one seems to show a 0.5 °C variance on ambient temperature and 0.3 °C between it's own sensors. But that's not important, I was just trying to figure out what exactly is happening with the airflow and cooling.

Good to know that my case fans setup is fine. The CPU power usage is 98 W on package and 86 W on cores. I don't know how much of that is transformed into heat and how much is transferred to the IHS. My CPU is not delidded so I have no clue how good or bad it is.

I was thinking that the CPU block's mounting point is the hottest but I was still expecting hotter air to come out, after all the CPU is 80 °C and the exhaust air is 50 °C cooler.

I know we were discussing alot about the Phanteks cooler but I have a bit different question now. By default it comes with 140 mm fans. The 140 mm fans reach much lower under the fins, pushing/pulling more direct air onto the heatpipes. 120 mm fans reach rougly 1-1.5 cm below the fins if they are aligned with the top of the tower.


How much it would/could hurt the cooling capacity if I'd switch them to 120 mm fans (considering airflow and static pressure is similar or better)?
Would 120 mm fans push enough air onto the heatpipes and also onto the VRM's around the CPU or they dont stick out too much from the fins?
PH-F140HP II has 68 CFM at 1.62mm H2O. Enermax T.B. Vegas has 82 CFM at 1.969mm H2O but it's a 120 mm fan. Is 2mm H2O overkill for this cooler? Or it would allow the fans to spin lower thus being more silent?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marn3us*
> 
> I can confirm that the ML120's are amazing.
> 
> I really like the GTs and the Vardars but a couple weeks ago I bought an ML120 just for the sake of trying and I was amazed. They are extremely quiet and can go down until 280rpm with 0 bearing/clicling noise (Vardars and many other fans including noctuas bother me with their ticking sound at extremely low rpm).
> 
> That guy saying that the "GT destroy all the other fans" was clearly a fanboy, just like the Corsair guy who said the ML120's are better just by looking at the specs


This /\ /\ /\ is a realistic relationship of the fans.








The ML120 seems to be a good fan, and the longer they are used without problems the more credible they become. If they havne no complaints about failing for another year I will be able to say they are a good fan.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *clarifiante*
> 
> i have ML140´s as case fans behind demcifilters for intake which if i am reading doyll´s post on airflow restriction correctly - is reducing airflow by 35%. does this mean that i should adjust for a more aggressive fan curve to compensate?


Airflow restriction is based on each fan's ability to overcome resistance. That and the slower a fan runs the lower it's pressure rating is .. meaning the more it is affected by the restriction.

How fast you need to run your fans depends on how much airflow you need to keep everything cool, so if things are running cool now there is no reason to increase fan speed. If things are running a little warm then I would speed up the fans with a more aggressive fan curve.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dirtyred*
> 
> Between 80-85% and 100% fan speed there's not a huge difference, only around 3-5 °C.
> 
> I don't know the exact accuracy of these thermometers and how well calibrated are. One is definetly calibrated (showing exactly the same temperature on both of it's sensors), the other one seems to show a 0.5 °C variance on ambient temperature and 0.3 °C between it's own sensors. But that's not important, I was just trying to figure out what exactly is happening with the airflow and cooling.
> 
> Good to know that my case fans setup is fine. The CPU power usage is 98 W on package and 86 W on cores. I don't know how much of that is transformed into heat and how much is transferred to the IHS. My CPU is not delidded so I have no clue how good or bad it is.
> 
> I was thinking that the CPU block's mounting point is the hottest but I was still expecting hotter air to come out, after all the CPU is 80 °C and the exhaust air is 50 °C cooler.
> 
> I know we were discussing alot about the Phanteks cooler but I have a bit different question now. By default it comes with 140 mm fans. The 140 mm fans reach much lower under the fins, pushing/pulling more direct air onto the heatpipes. 120 mm fans reach rougly 1-1.5 cm below the fins if they are aligned with the top of the tower.
> 
> 
> How much it would/could hurt the cooling capacity if I'd switch them to 120 mm fans (considering airflow and static pressure is similar or better)?
> Would 120 mm fans push enough air onto the heatpipes and also onto the VRM's around the CPU or they dont stick out too much from the fins?
> PH-F140HP II has 68 CFM at 1.62mm H2O. Enermax T.B. Vegas has 82 CFM at 1.969mm H2O but it's a 120 mm fan. Is 2mm H2O overkill for this cooler? Or it would allow the fans to spin lower thus being more silent?


You could try placing a probe directly on the cooler block and see how hot is reads.

The 120mm fan comparison is hard to guess. I do know 120mm fans will not be moving air over motherboard components like the 140m fans do, but 120mm fans on cooler will probably work just fine.

With the fans you have now only changing CPU temps 3-5c between 80% and 100% I would guess that airflow is not a problem. It would help to know what temps do if you lower the fan speed to 50-60%. I would rather you gave us fan speed in rpm, not %.


----------



## dirtyred

I retest with 2 different speed settings on 4.5 GHz @ 1.16 V

On 50% fan speed:
Front Arctic F12: 900 RPM
Front Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-2: 720 RPM
Rear Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-2: 800 RPM
Phanteks PH-F140HP II: 775 RPM

CPU cores average: 74 °C (74-74-72-76)
CPU package: 76 °C

On 100% fan speed:
Front Arctic F12: 1400 RPM
Front Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-2: 1270 RPM
Rear Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-2: 1467 RPM (I guess the Phanteks fan 2 cm away makes it spin faster)
Phanteks PH-F140HP II: 1570 RPM

CPU cores average: 72 °C (72-71-70-74)
CPU package: 74 °C

CPU package power: 72 W
IA Cores power: 70 W

It's really strange that with double the fans RPM the temperature difference is only a couple degrees.


----------



## becks

The way I see it it is much more simpler....

You have X amount of W heat on the heat sink base....you reached the heat sink dissipation limit...and even as it is your heat sink can't dissipate heat more so the air does not get any hotter getting out of the exhaust....

Its like having 480 mm space of Radiator....and adding another 480 mm rad to the table...but you have the same temperature....cause the water block simply can't dissipate any more / any faster heat...

Or maybe i'm completely wrong...


----------



## clarifiante

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> :
> The ML120 seems to be a good fan, and the longer they are used without problems the more credible they become. If they havne no complaints about failing for another year I will be able to say they are a good fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Airflow restriction is based on each fan's ability to overcome resistance. That and the slower a fan runs the lower it's pressure rating is .. meaning the more it is affected by the restriction.
> 
> How fast you need to run your fans depends on how much airflow you need to keep everything cool, so if things are running cool now there is no reason to increase fan speed. If things are running a little warm then I would speed up the fans with a more aggressive fan curve.


there doesn´t seem to be enough air flowing to the back of my case where my components are housed in my caselabs SMA8. i opened the window panel and it feels cold where the air is flowing in and then ridiculously hot where my components are. does this mean i should also increase the fan curve for my back and top exhaust fans accordingly?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dirtyred*
> 
> I retest with 2 different speed settings on 4.5 GHz @ 1.16 V
> 
> On 50% fan speed:
> Front Arctic F12: 900 RPM
> Front Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-2: 720 RPM
> Rear Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-2: 800 RPM
> Phanteks PH-F140HP II: 775 RPM
> 
> CPU cores average: 74 °C (74-74-72-76)
> CPU package: 76 °C
> 
> On 100% fan speed:
> Front Arctic F12: 1400 RPM
> Front Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-2: 1270 RPM
> Rear Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-2: 1467 RPM (I guess the Phanteks fan 2 cm away makes it spin faster)
> Phanteks PH-F140HP II: 1570 RPM
> 
> CPU cores average: 72 °C (72-71-70-74)
> CPU package: 74 °C
> 
> CPU package power: 72 W
> IA Cores power: 70 W
> 
> It's really strange that with double the fans RPM the temperature difference is only a couple degrees.


Seems either a poor CPU to IHS seat or a poor IHS to cooler seat .. maybe both.
Obviously we both know the PH-TC14PE is capable of cooling way more wattage than the CPU is now producing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> The way I see it it is much more simpler....
> 
> You have X amount of W heat on the heat sink base...*.you reached the heat sink dissipation limit*...and even as it is your *heat sink can't dissipate heat* more so the air does not get any hotter getting out of the exhaust....
> 
> Its like having 480 mm space of Radiator....and adding another 480 mm rad to the table...but you have the same temperature....cause the *water block simply can't dissipate any more / any faster heat*...
> 
> Or maybe i'm completely wrong...


The first part of your explanation is total rubbish. The PH-TC14PE is capable of handling up to about 300 watts of heat .. more than 4 times more energy than CPU is now using.

The 2nd part of your post may hold some merit. .. but it's not the waterblock / base of air cooler that is the problem. It's either the CPU to IHS TIM seat or the IHS to cooler TIM seat. If the CPU is not able to transfer heat to IHS or IHS is not transfering the heat to CPU base, the CPU cooler cannot effectively cool / remove heat it does not receive.


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*


Not a total nonsense I was just talking the information we where provided..
Its been over 2 weeks since I first suggested to him to re-paste, in a different post, on a different problem and he didn't to my knowledge..
And its been over 2 months since hes been first told to delid and he didn't and he will not do it...so why suggest something that has already been suggested knowing nothing will be done..
That's why I approached just the information provided, and as it is here, and now...The Heat Sink has reached it's dissipation limit.
Improving that will require him to do things he does not want to do.









EDIT: I trust you know there's a limit between theoretical and practical limits, at 133 W my Noctua NH-D14 with 3x 3000 Industrial fans going nuts at 100% the cooler simple couldn't dissipate more and reached it's limit...I doubt the PH-TC14PE with stock fans is twice as good as that one..

Noctua TDP: Here *Note stock fans..


----------



## dirtyred

Definetly not reached the cooler's limit. I did these last tests on 4.5 GHz @ 1.6 V (just to be sure I can lower the fan speeds to 50%). The cooler can keep up easily until 4.8 GHz @ 1.25 V but above that it's starting to overheat. What's really strange is that ASUS tested the 7700K and they were able to go up to 5 GHz @ 1.32 V under RealBench and still stay below 80 °C with a non-delidded CPU. I'm reaching 90 °C with the same settings.

I did a repaste, screws tighened until small resistance was felt and then a tiny bit more. Didn't change the temperatures at all.

Here are some pictures with the old thermal paste and how much I put now:





To me the TIM spread seems fine , a bit too much I know, but shouldn't influence that much.

What's really strange is when I touched the outer 2 heatpipes during Prime95 those were cold (a bit above the case's metal) but definetly not warm after 10-15 minutes of stress testing and the CPU being at 75 °C. Maybe the delid would solve the problem but I'm still not decided if I want to do it (I'll wait for the next series to come out).


----------



## becks

I tell you my friend... if you keep it like this the villagers will assault you


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> Not a total nonsense I was just talking the information we where provided..
> Its been over 2 weeks since I first suggested to him to re-paste, in a different post, on a different problem and he didn't to my knowledge..
> And its been over 2 months since hes been first told to delid and he didn't and he will not do it...so why suggest something that has already been suggested knowing nothing will be done..
> That's why I approached just the information provided, and as it is here, and now...The Heat Sink has reached it's dissipation limit.
> Improving that will require him to do things he does not want to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: I trust you know there's a limit between theoretical and practical limits, at 133 W my Noctua NH-D14 with 3x 3000 Industrial fans going nuts at 100% the cooler simple couldn't dissipate more and reached it's limit...I doubt the PH-TC14PE with stock fans is twice as good as that one..
> 
> Noctua TDP: Here *Note stock fans..


Your approach showed you had no grasp of what the PH-TC14PE is capable of cooling.

I know a PH-TC14PE cooler can cool 340 watts of heat to 43.5c delta with stock fans.

NH-D14 on 345 watts of heat cools to 30.6c delta
PH-TC14PE on same heat cools . to . 27.4c delta
NH-D15 on same watts of heat cools 24.1c delta
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22319257

Another source shows
NH-D15 cools 340 watts of heat cools to 36.6c delta
PH-TC14PE on 340 watts of heat cools to 43.5c delta
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/940_20#post_26116579

Different sources but both show much greater cooling abilty than the 84 watts being used by i7 7700k

As for our edited part, based on what you have posted before here and elsewhere makes it of no value.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> I tell you my friend... if you keep it like this the villagers will assault you


If you do not have anything helpful to add, please don't post anything. It only makes you look worse than you already do.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dirtyred*
> 
> Definetly not reached the cooler's limit. I did these last tests on 4.5 GHz @1.6 V just to be sure I can lower the fan speeds to 50%). The cooler can keep up easily until 4.8 GHz @ 1.25 V but above that it's starting to overheat. What's really strange is that ASUS tested the 7700K and they were able to go up to 5 GHz @ 1.32 V under RealBench and still stay below 80 °C with a non-delidded CPU. I'm reaching 90 °C with the same settings.
> 
> I did a repaste, screws tighened until small resistance was felt and then a tiny bit more. Didn't change the temperatures at all.
> 
> Here are some pictures with the old thermal paste and how much I put now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me the TIM spread seems fine , a bit too much I know, but shouldn't influence that much.
> 
> What's really strange is when I touched the outer 2 heatpipes during Prime95 those were cold (a bit above the case's metal) but definetly not warm after 10-15 minutes of stress testing and the CPU being at 75 °C. Maybe the delid would solve the problem but I'm still not decided if I want to do it (I'll wait for the next series to come out).


Can't be 1.6 volts.








Different CPUs even in same batch heat very differently at same overclock and overclock to different limits. Allow for different batches and the differences become even greater.

Your TIM print is defintely too much TIM used .. probalby at least twice as much as I would use. But the print is not bad so it will transfer heat well enough. Extreme amounts of TIM is only about 3c hotter than the right amount.


----------



## jura11

Hi there

I can say only from my experience,I've tried like H100i then NH-D15 and right now running custom water loop with 360mm/240mm and 120mm radiators and difference between the coolers or cooling has been quite interesting

H100i has been worse from all cooling solutions which I've tried on my i7-5820k, I couldn't run more than 4.4GHz on this chip if yes then temperatures would go through the roof literally

NH-D15 its has been probably my best cooler what I've run, with this cooler I could run easily 4.6Ghz with 1.29v and still with very reasonable temperatures at 76-80°C on PKG

Custom water loop its great, but I expected bit better temperatures on CPU than have right now and they're very close to what I've previously on NH-D15, GPU temperatures are very nice and I wouldn't compare them to air cooled GPU

If I wouldn't run 3 GPU then I would definitely stay with NH-D15 for very long time time, personally I replaced Noctua NH-D15 fans for TY-143 fans which I personally like

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura


----------



## dirtyred

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> I tell you my friend... if you keep it like this the villagers will assault you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not have anything helpful to add, please don't post anything. It only makes you look worse than you already do.
Click to expand...

No need to chase him away, he's obviously trying to help, even if he's wrong (debatable if that hurts more than not helping). He's probably referring to one of my posts when my TIM got into the socket below the CPU and this time it's also way too much.

Sorry for typo. I meant 4.5 GHz @ 1.16 V.

Yeah, the TIM is way too much but this time I've put less then previously. But as you said it doesn't have huge importance because of only a couple degrees difference between the best and worst case. Other sources confirm that as well. Obviously I still have to learn what's the right amount as I did it only 4-5 times with this build and before that it was 15 years ago.









I was also thinking that could be the heat transfer between the CPU and the IHS. If I'm not selling this when the new i7 comes out then I'll probably delid it and hopefully solve this issue. Until then I'll have to live with the thermal limits. The only thing I can eliminate is the fan noise.

Regarding fan noise. I found some Enermax T.B. Vegas $10 and it seems that performancewise it's better than the TY-147, acoustically seems to be fantastic and it's just a bit louder (1 dBA at similar CFM): http://www.coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/1736-recensione-enermax-ets-t50-axe.html?start=6 . Also it's more flexible because of higher RPM limit. Do you have any experience with these? Is the quality persistent between samples?


----------



## becks

Oh common @doyll... if you don't know what I am referring to either leave me alone or ask.. ( villagers will assault you part...)
On the other hand, I might be wrong, or not (those lovely wall of text on how good the PH is use stock fans...on both. My NH-D14 had three 3000 Industrial Noctua fans on it...but you missed that







) still does not warrant you to be rude..

@jura11 I had same problem, same temperature on NH-D14 or WC (2x240 Rads) ..actually a bit worse on WC by 3-5 C.. But I found a solution and will post in the EK some updates later (in my case I need a better pump)


----------



## jura11

Hi @becks

In my case nit sure if pump can be issue,will be installing MPS 400 flow sensor as next

Tried previously to run two GPU or single GPU and two radiators etc but still my temperatures are pretty much same as with NH-D15 or they're very close, my water delta is still same around 7-8°C in gaming or rendering and in stress testing in OCCT my water delta is around 2-5°C

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jura11*
> 
> Hi @becks
> 
> In my case nit sure if pump can be issue,will be installing MPS 400 flow sensor as next
> 
> Tried previously to run two GPU or single GPU and two radiators etc but still my temperatures are pretty much same as with NH-D15 or they're very close, my water delta is still same around 7-8°C in gaming or rendering and in stress testing in OCCT my water delta is around 2-5°C
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Thanks, Jura


I had same problem you describe, and I managed to get better temps by changing monoblock with cpu only block (less restrictive) that's why I am pretty sure its because of the weak pump I have (only 2500 RPM - 500l/h)


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Anandtech posted their 140mm Slim Tower reviews: *http://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup*


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Anandtech posted their 140mm Slim Tower reviews: *http://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup*


Anandtech does good accurate testing.

The TRUE Spirit 140 Direct is the real winner in this test, not the NH-U14S.
NH-U14S is $64 with a thermal rating of 0.1151 @ 12V; 0.1438 @ 7V
TRUE Spirit 140 Direct is $47 with a thermal rating of 0.1160 @ 12V; 0.1417 @ 7v

At 150 watts heat and below TRUE Spirit 140 Direct cools just as well as NH-U14S and is only 1.4dB louder at full speed .. and at 340 watts it is only 2.4c warmer

For $17 less (27% less) and 38.4c instead of 36.0c the TRUE Spirit 140 Direct is the winner .. hands down!!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dirtyred*
> 
> No need to chase him away, he's obviously trying to help, even if he's wrong (debatable if that hurts more than not helping). He's probably referring to one of my posts when my TIM got into the socket below the CPU and this time it's also way too much.
> 
> Sorry for typo. I meant 4.5 GHz @ 1.16 V.
> 
> Yeah, the TIM is way too much but this time I've put less then previously. But as you said it doesn't have huge importance because of only a couple degrees difference between the best and worst case. Other sources confirm that as well. Obviously I still have to learn what's the right amount as I did it only 4-5 times with this build and before that it was 15 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was also thinking that could be the heat transfer between the CPU and the IHS. If I'm not selling this when the new i7 comes out then I'll probably delid it and hopefully solve this issue. Until then I'll have to live with the thermal limits. The only thing I can eliminate is the fan noise.
> 
> Regarding fan noise. I found some Enermax T.B. Vegas $10 and it seems that performancewise it's better than the TY-147, acoustically seems to be fantastic and it's just a bit louder (1 dBA at similar CFM): http://www.coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/1736-recensione-enermax-ets-t50-axe.html?start=6 . Also it's more flexible because of higher RPM limit. Do you have any experience with these? Is the quality persistent between samples?


I'm not sure how you copared the Enermax and TY-147A, but what I see is TY-147A (and TY-143 above 1300rpm) do much better than the Enermax EDH122512H-PAL-C when I compared them with CoolingTechnique testing. TY-147A does much Maybe consider getting TY-143 fans if you need more than 1200-1300rpm. I matched TY fans to Entermax by rpm in charts below


----------



## dirtyred

On the same or similar dBA (1-1.5 dBA difference) the TY-147A is a tiny bit better in terms of airflow or static pressure (by 5-10%) but the Enermax fan has a wider operational range, topping at 81 CFM @ 1.969 mm H2O. Also, it's cheaper costing around $10, compared to the Thermalright's $15+ price. In the price/performance ratio the Enermax fan seems to win. Acoustically I also find it pleasing, nothing out of order.


----------



## doyll

Extra pressure means more airflow against restrictions. Enermax has high pressure rating at same rpm near it's top speed. I don't know about how they sound, but I suspect the the bit louder the TY fans are is not an issue.

Do TY-143 fans cost the same as TY-147A?


----------



## Melcar

I really wish Thermalright fans and heatsinks where easier to get. My TY-143s cost me a small fortune to ship them here.


----------



## dirtyred

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Extra pressure means more airflow against restrictions. Enermax has high pressure rating at same rpm near it's top speed. I don't know about how they sound, but I suspect the the bit louder the TY fans are is not an issue.
> 
> Do TY-143 fans cost the same as TY-147A?


That extra pressure is around 5-10% less for the Enermax fans at the same noise levels (rougly 1-1.5 dbA louder but not alot of people can distinguish that, I usually can 2 dbA if I really pay attention). I don't really care about the RPM as that's not a really good measure in my opinion. I aligned those 2 tables to show that the airflow and static pressure is almost the same, but more importantly they can provide more then the TY-147A if needed at the cost of noise.

The Define C seems to be less restrictive even with dust filter because even Arctic F12 fans provide pretty good airflow. With either TY-147A or Enermax it would be even better.

TY-143 fans are even more expensive then TY-147A. Not by much but at 5-6 fans it makes a difference. That's why I'm leaning towards the Enermax fans as the difference would be around $25+ at 5 fans while the performance of the TY-147A might not justify that extra.

Here are the 2 sound recordings of the fans, aligned to around 56-60 CFM, 16.6-15.8 dBA, 0.953-1.080 mmH2O, the only difference being that the Enermax fans are on a heatsink:


----------



## Axaion

Hard to compare that, one being on a heatsink versus the other one just by itself, propped up against the side of the device could induce extra noise from vibrations versus being mounted on a heatsink


----------



## dirtyred

Yes, you're right. I was thinking the same thing. If noise was measured while the fan was on the heatsink then that Enermax fan might be even quieter then the Thermalright TY-147A. If not, even then it's impressive, considering that costs only 2/3 of the TY-147A. If quality consistency is good between multiple fans than I think it's a good buy. I have to get a few to know for sure.


----------



## doyll

Impressive. Will we interesting to find out what the difference is in real life. If you get a couple please let me know the results.


----------



## Melcar

Stat-wise it looks good, but If I'm not mistaken the stats on those tables are for free air. CoolingTechnique does test fans under restriction and they do provide in some of their tests nifty p/q curves (which is why I love them). You will have to find out how they perform with filters or on a heatsink, since that often throws numbers obtained in free air tests out of whack. But hey, cheap fans (that perform well) are always a good thing.


----------



## JustCoolMyHeart

Doyll. Can I ask your knowlege for my case fan configuration on Aerocool strike-X cube. I guess you will want to ask "why dont you go with traditional case design for optimum airflow ?". Bc I want to experience horizental case design, which they claim it will help decrease the pressure from heavy and massive air cooler which is like Noctua NH-D15 i am going to purchase in the future. And the concept it wl create the straight air path from the front to the back of the case.









Here is the link product: http://www.aerocool.us/strikex/strike-X%20cube%20red.html.

If you get through the product describe, you will see the case is divided into 2 seperated chamber: the upper chamber is for the main, and the bottom one is for PSU and HDD cages. According to its cooling supports:
_ Front 1x200mm, or 2x120 mm fans, or 2x140mm fans (which i will go with it).
_ Rear: 2x120mm fans or 2x140mm fans.
_ Top : 1x200mm, or 2x120 mm fans, or 2x140mm fans (if we remove the DVD cage).

And you can see if I go with 2x140 mm fans at the front, each one of them will supply cooling air for to its own chamber, which makes me concern that the mainboard chamber will not be supplied enough air for the air cooler and GPU cooler (i use artic accellero iv extreme). SO i am planning to add the cooling air shorttage with the intake front-top fan, but it again leaves me another problem that i fear the 2 perpendicular alignment intake fans will interfere with each other that can cause turbulent air in the case. So what is the best fan config i can have for the case ?

One thing i forgot to tell you that i am really impressed and kinda admire of your research i have to read many times to understand the article (bc i am Vietnamese, not good at English much). I hope you can get what i was writing. Have a good day, sir.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustCoolMyHeart*
> 
> Doyll. Can I ask your knowlege for my case fan configuration on Aerocool strike-X cube. I guess you will want to ask "why dont you go with traditional case design for optimum airflow ?". Bc I want to experience horizental case design, which they claim it will help decrease the pressure from heavy and massive air cooler which is like Noctua NH-D15 i am going to purchase in the future. And the concept it wl create the straight air path from the front to the back of the case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link product: http://www.aerocool.us/strikex/strike-X%20cube%20red.html.
> 
> If you get through the product describe, you will see the case is divided into 2 seperated chamber: the upper chamber is for the main, and the bottom one is for PSU and HDD cages. According to its cooling supports:
> _ Front 1x200mm, or 2x120 mm fans, or 2x140mm fans (which i will go with it).
> _ Rear: 2x120mm fans or 2x140mm fans.
> _ Top : 1x200mm, or 2x120 mm fans, or 2x140mm fans (if we remove the DVD cage).
> 
> And you can see if I go with 2x140 mm fans at the front, each one of them will supply cooling air for to its own chamber, which makes me concern that the mainboard chamber will not be supplied enough air for the air cooler and GPU cooler (i use artic accellero iv extreme). SO i am planning to add the cooling air shorttage with the intake front-top fan, but it again leaves me another problem that i fear the 2 perpendicular alignment intake fans will interfere with each other that can cause turbulent air in the case. So what is the best fan config i can have for the case ?
> 
> One thing i forgot to tell you that i am really impressed and kinda admire of your research i have to read many times to understand the article (bc i am Vietnamese, not good at English much). I hope you can get what i was writing. Have a good day, sir.


Nicely written up questions with all relevant information supplied.









I wold not lock in of D15. There are many other cools just as good for less money. For example TRUE Spirit 140 Power is about $50.

Yes, use 2x 140mm front intake fans.

At a glance it looks like the side window is aligned with GPU. If it is I would probably remove window, install vent mesh that matches other vent mesh and use 1x 140mm or 2x 120mm side intakes to supply cool air to GPU. Easy to test out by just removing window and running stress test. Even with no side intake fan it should help GPU. It will also allow GPU to be mounted in PCIe slot farther away from CPU. Obviously remove all unused PCIe back slot covers.

Your English is good. If you do not understand what I have said, ask and I will try to explain it better.


----------



## doyll

dbl post


----------



## JustCoolMyHeart

OMG I dont expect you would reply that fast and ty for your compliment. One problem i think you misunderstood me is the fan intake configuration because i want to use 3 intakes, 2 common front intakes for their own chamber, so the last one, which is roof half front intake fan, would concern me the most. Because you can see the roof half top intake fan and the front half top fan will make a Perpendicular alignment, which I fear they would cause an turbulent air at the front. And the air cooler you suggest me to get is exactly the one i am using, True 140 power edtition. To me, damn it is a great and amazing cooler, but one thing it make me worry is the height and the width blocking the 1st PCi-E on my asus rampage iv gene, which accidently meets your demand, to mount the VGA far awat from the cooler.














.

And i have a question for you. Have you test the amount of cooling intake air between the front mesh grill panel (like enthoo pro M, Fractal design Arc Midi 2, etc) and the solid front panel with the groove
pattern running around the neck of the case (like your favorite case Define R2, define S, ...). Because i think with the solid front panel, it may suffocate the air being sucked by intake fan to feed the heating components inside the case.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustCoolMyHeart*
> 
> OMG I dont expect you would reply that fast and ty for your compliment. One problem i think you misunderstood me is the fan intake configuration because i want to use 3 intakes, 2 common front intakes for their own chamber, so the last one, which is roof half front intake fan, would concern me the most. Because you can see the roof half top intake fan and the front half top fan will make a Perpendicular alignment, which I fear they would cause an turbulent air at the front. And the air cooler you suggest me to get is exactly the one i am using, True 140 power edtition. To me, damn it is a great and amazing cooler, but one thing it make me worry is the height and the width blocking the 1st PCi-E on my asus rampage iv gene, which accidently meets your demand, to mount the VGA far awat from the cooler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> And i have a question for you. Have you test the amount of cooling intake air between the front mesh grill panel (like enthoo pro M, Fractal design Arc Midi 2, etc) and the solid front panel with the groove
> pattern running around the neck of the case (like your favorite case Define R2, define S, ...). Because i think with the solid front panel, it may suffocate the air being sucked by intake fan to feed the heating components inside the case.


Sometimes I am on computer and answer fans, sometimes I don't.









Easiest way to find out if top fan will help is try one in the top and see if it helps or hurts CPU cooling.

I would also try removing the window if it's not too hard to do and see if that helps.

I have not specifically tested intake airflow on like my Define R2, Enthoo Luxe, Nanoxia Deep Silence 2 & 5, Enthoo Primo. I did find opening the front of Define R2 when a full load on CPU and GPU lowered temps a couple of degrees at same fan speed, but not enough to be a big deal.

I have found bottom intakes benefit greatly by having more room between case and what it sets on .. but you know this from reading thread and your case has not bottom intakes.


----------



## clarifiante

@doyll thanks for the comments on removing the unused pcie slot covers. will definitely do that. as for the top vents on my sma8. from what i understand, if i am adamant of utilising the top vents. then you would recommend the follow set up?

back --- exhaust --- exhaust --- empty --- intake --- front


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *clarifiante*
> 
> @doyll thanks for the comments on removing the unused pcie slot covers. will definitely do that. as for the top vents on my sma8. from what i understand, if i am adamant of utilising the top vents. then you would recommend the follow set up?
> 
> back --- exhaust --- exhaust --- empty --- intake --- front


At a guess from back to front ... exhaust ... empty ... empty ... intake ... front.

It may help to block the empty vents and maybe from back to front ... exhaust ... empty ... intake ... intake ... front if 2nd from front intake us not too close to CPU cooler intake.

Remove unused PCIe back slot covers will probably double your back vent area.

Honestly Caselabs SMA8 has lousy airflow layout for anything but radiators. There is very little front and back venting for good front to back airflow and motherboard orientation requires front to back or GPU heat feeds into CPU. The bottom compartment is verually useless in an air-cooled application. If you have HDDs down there a single fan will move enough air to keep them cool.


----------



## Calibos

I use a Corsair Air540 laid on its side. I added two 140mm fans aimed at the GPU. For a few weeks I had those as intake, 3 front 120mm fans as intake and the Corsair H110iGT AIO rad fans and rear fan as exhaust. I was hoping the positive pressure would get the GPU's internal exhaust out of the case.

After stripping out the case to dremel some parts and paint the interior I realised that there was nothing in the rulebook that said that front fans have to be intake and not exhaust. So I flipped those 3x 120mm fans around to exhaust and also flipped the AIO Radiator fans in intake.

Both GPU and CPU temps dropped as did some motherboard temps. Its great feeling the hot air being exhausted by those 3 front fans because it means its no longer hanging around inside the case any longer than it has to.

I've had the fans configured as pictured for the whole Summer now.





Its pretty balanced in that config. I did feel the urge to flip the rear fan to intake a few days ago to create some positive pressure. I worried that the exhaust was deflecting off the wall close behind the PC and getting sucked straight back into the AIO rad again. Did I do the right thing or should I flip that rear fan back to exhaust.


----------



## becks

Just a quick question...for @doyll
In a Define Nano S


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







With top (pull trough) and back as Intake and Front as Exhaust ( pull trough) PSU with fan facing down so it pulls in and exhausts at the back so it is not influencing case temps, in an Ambient of 25-26 I get 30-31C air temp inside the case (with a 10k sensor)... With a closed case (Front Cover on...side panels on...bottom dust filter on)
I still need to re position the sensor some more as I think it gets mixed reading from being to close to the Radiator (more than often the inside case air temp = Water temp in reservoir)...

Do you think this is "normal" ? or it should be better ?

Also..on a side note, now I know why everyone was complaining about the Noctuas Industrial 3000 12v PWN fan... At first I bought 4....completely silent. Than I bought a 5th one for the back intake and at 560 RPM is doing more noise than all of the other 4 combined at 1400....still have not figured out why...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calibos*
> 
> I use a Corsair Air540 laid on its side. I added two 140mm fans aimed at the GPU. For a few weeks I had those as intake, 3 front 120mm fans as intake and the Corsair H110iGT AIO rad fans and rear fan as exhaust. I was hoping the positive pressure would get the GPU's internal exhaust out of the case.
> 
> After stripping out the case to dremel some parts and paint the interior I realised that there was nothing in the rulebook that said that front fans have to be intake and not exhaust. So I flipped those 3x 120mm fans around to exhaust and also flipped the AIO Radiator fans in intake.
> 
> Both GPU and CPU temps dropped as did some motherboard temps. Its great feeling the hot air being exhausted by those 3 front fans because it means its no longer hanging around inside the case any longer than it has to.
> 
> I've had the fans configured as pictured for the whole Summer now.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its pretty balanced in that config. I did feel the urge to flip the rear fan to intake a few days ago to create some positive pressure. I worried that the exhaust was deflecting off the wall close behind the PC and getting sucked straight back into the AIO rad again. Did I do the right thing or should I flip that rear fan back to exhaust.


There is no definite 'right' or 'wrong' as long as components run cool. As you have experienced, experimentation often gives lower temps.

You could try unplugging the rear exhaust and see if makes any difference .. if temps are cooler just don't use it or maybe fit something between case and wall in the back corner so the warmed back exhaust cannot be drawn around the corner and back in.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> Just a quick question...for @doyll
> In a Define Nano S
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With top (pull trough) and back as Intake and Front as Exhaust ( pull trough) PSU with fan facing down so it pulls in and exhausts at the back so it is not influencing case temps, in an Ambient of 25-26 I get 30-31C air temp inside the case (with a 10k sensor)... With a closed case (Front Cover on...side panels on...bottom dust filter on)
> I still need to re position the sensor some more as I think it gets mixed reading from being to close to the Radiator (more than often the inside case air temp = Water temp in reservoir)...
> 
> Do you think this is "normal" ? or it should be better ?
> 
> Also..on a side note, now I know why everyone was complaining about the Noctuas Industrial 3000 12v PWN fan... At first I bought 4....completely silent. Than I bought a 5th one for the back intake and at 560 RPM is doing more noise than all of the other 4 combined at 1400....still have not figured out why...


With any radiator as intake the case air will be warmer because of heat transferring into intake air.









Sound like it's working pretty wel / normal to mel. I'm assuming you have top radiator 2x fans and back fan intake with front radiator 2x fans exhaust with front filter in place? I would remove the front filter .. unless you want to filter the case air before it comes out of case.









Have you tried spacing back fan away from grill 5-10mm,, switching it with one of radiator fans or maybe move it to be bottom intake? Not saying it's not a noisy fan, just trying to prove it is or isn't.







Once you a positive it is that specific fan and not something else I would email Noctua explaining it is only 1 of 5x fans that is noisy. Noctua has great customer support.


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*


You got it right!
Thank you very much for the replay..

So:
Top Rad has 2x fans and is pulling air into the case trough the Radiator
Back fan is pulling fresh air in - will try and space it or switch it with another fan from a radiator - can't mount it in the bottom as there is no room








Front rad has 2x fans pulling air out of the case trough Radiator - On top of these fans there is the front case cover.. so i can't remove this from the equation... Only if I want to have an ugly naked front,
The space between fans and that cover is roughly 6 mm and air is pushed than on the side vents....and the magnetic fan filter from there has been removed completely. please see below picture


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








I will keep in mind what you suggested and report back later when I get home.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> You got it right!
> Thank you very much for the replay..
> 
> So:
> Top Rad has 2x fans and is pulling air into the case trough the Radiator
> Back fan is pulling fresh air in - will try and space it or switch it with another fan from a radiator - can't mount it in the bottom as there is no room
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front rad has 2x fans pulling air out of the case trough Radiator - On top of these fans there is the front case cover.. so i can't remove this from the equation... Only if I want to have an ugly naked front,
> The space between fans and that cover is roughly 6 mm and air is pushed than on the side vents....and the magnetic fan filter from there has been removed completely. please see below picture
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will keep in mind what you suggested and report back later when I get home.


Wow! That was quick! Look forward to hearing what you figure / find out. Nice clean build!
Really like the clear rigid tubing with nice vertical and horizontal lines.








Seems most rigid tubing builds seem to have alt least one line not looking right.


----------



## becks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*


You can't imagine how much I appreciate what you said!!!









*THANK YOU!*

The truth is I went trough over 6 meters of acrylic tubing and I just ordered other 6 packs (2x 50cm) as I will redo most of them...in person they are just slightly off and the ones who are dead straight have scratches from constantly putting the fitting on them on and off...

I also bend free hand and it's an ongoing project for myself to get better and better.
Rig will be sold once its done so I am looking for absolute perfection


----------



## becks

Okay, after much testing and still ongoing ...I have the preliminary figures.

Ambient is 24-25 C with the interior Case temperature 30-31 C and a stabilize water temperature (in reservoir) of 35-36 C.
So a 11 C Delta (Water - Ambient)
Back and top Intake...front Exhaust.

Gpu peaks 47 Celsius and CPU 78 Celsius in 8H stress test.
Gaming: Gpu peaks 38 with CPU high 50's
Couldn't be more happy.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> Okay, after much testing and still ongoing ...I have the preliminary figures.
> 
> Ambient is 24-25 C with the interior Case temperature 30-31 C and a stabilize water temperature (in reservoir) of 35-36 C.
> So a 11 C Delta (Water - Ambient)
> Back and top Intake...front Exhaust.
> 
> Gpu peaks 47 Celsius and CPU 78 Celsius in 8H stress test.
> Gaming: Gpu peaks 38 with CPU high 50's
> Couldn't be more happy.


Good temps!


----------



## DiceAir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calibos*
> 
> I use a Corsair Air540 laid on its side. I added two 140mm fans aimed at the GPU. For a few weeks I had those as intake, 3 front 120mm fans as intake and the Corsair H110iGT AIO rad fans and rear fan as exhaust. I was hoping the positive pressure would get the GPU's internal exhaust out of the case.
> 
> After stripping out the case to dremel some parts and paint the interior I realised that there was nothing in the rulebook that said that front fans have to be intake and not exhaust. So I flipped those 3x 120mm fans around to exhaust and also flipped the AIO Radiator fans in intake.
> 
> Both GPU and CPU temps dropped as did some motherboard temps. Its great feeling the hot air being exhausted by those 3 front fans because it means its no longer hanging around inside the case any longer than it has to.
> 
> I've had the fans configured as pictured for the whole Summer now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its pretty balanced in that config. I did feel the urge to flip the rear fan to intake a few days ago to create some positive pressure. I worried that the exhaust was deflecting off the wall close behind the PC and getting sucked straight back into the AIO rad again. Did I do the right thing or should I flip that rear fan back to exhaust.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> There is no definite 'right' or 'wrong' as long as components run cool. As you have experienced, experimentation often gives lower temps.
> 
> You could try unplugging the rear exhaust and see if makes any difference .. if temps are cooler just don't use it or maybe fit something between case and wall in the back corner so the warmed back exhaust cannot be drawn around the corner and back in.


Also with air 540 here and my temps smetimes are a bit high. Gpu goes to 70-75C in some game but others only 65C and that's on 1440p . The summer is very near now here where i stay so my components will run same or hotter I don't know. here is my config.

- 1 stock fan exhaust (back), 3x cougar vortex pwm intake (front)

- Phanteks ph-tc14pe (2x stock fans blowing towards the rear exhaust fan)

- 980 ti HOF and at the very bottom slot i have my sound blaster z sound card.

i find laying it on it's side improves airflow and also removing the pci-e covers improves airflow as well for my gpu. I don't have any fans above cpu (top side) so I can add a fan or 2 there but last time I did that there was 0 difference but hey maybe because I only added 1 fan and not 2.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DiceAir*
> 
> Also with air 540 here and my temps smetimes are a bit high. Gpu goes to 70-75C in some game but others only 65C and that's on 1440p . The summer is very near now here where i stay so my components will run same or hotter I don't know. here is my config.
> 
> - 1 stock fan exhaust (back), 3x cougar vortex pwm intake (front)
> 
> - Phanteks ph-tc14pe (2x stock fans blowing towards the rear exhaust fan)
> 
> - 980 ti HOF and at the very bottom slot i have my sound blaster z sound card.
> 
> i find laying it on it's side improves airflow and also removing the pci-e covers improves airflow as well for my gpu. I don't have any fans above cpu (top side) so I can add a fan or 2 there but last time I did that there was 0 difference but hey maybe because I only added 1 fan and not 2.


As you can see in the below images the Air 540 does not have as much back venting on motherboard compartment as I like to see. Even with PCIe slot covers removed it is still quite restrictive. The added area around fan as well as between PCIe slots covers and vent between PCIe slots and case side area. The rear fan vent looks to be about the right size for 120mm fan, not 140mm fan. Stock case fans in 540 move very little air .. and that's being optomistic and assuming they are running full speed.
I usually do not install the motherboard I/O shield in case back to improve airflow out of case in back of CPU. This usually lowers motherboard components in that area several degrees. I have been known to cut the stips between PCIe slot openings out too.








 

The front can benefit by cutting the 120mm fan mounting flanges out to 140mm diameter to open up the full fan flow area.


----------



## DiceAir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> As you can see in the below images the Air 540 does not have as much back venting on motherboard compartment as I like to see. Even with PCIe slot covers removed it is still quite restrictive. The added area around fan as well as between PCIe slots covers and vent between PCIe slots and case side area. The rear fan vent looks to be about the right size for 120mm fan, not 140mm fan. Stock case fans in 540 move very little air .. and that's being optomistic and assuming they are running full speed.
> I usually do not install the motherboard I/O shield in case back to improve airflow out of case in back of CPU. This usually lowers motherboard components in that area several degrees. I have been known to cut the stips between PCIe slot openings out too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The front can benefit by cutting the 120mm fan mounting flanges out to 140mm diameter to open up the full fan flow area.


Thanks for the info but i had a major issue the past 2 days. 1 of my gpu fans stopped working so i removed the fan and installed a corsair sp120L that came with my old h100i so that it brings in cool air to the gpu and it worked very nicely. I suspect that fan wasn't doing it's job as it supposed to cause last summer my gpu temps was nearing 80C in certain games now when I played PUBG my GPU was nearing 80C and yesterday when my fan stopped it was topping 88C but now it's going max 70-73C so a massive drop. Still a bit high but I know PUBG does heat up the card.

When playing Rainbow six Siege with Ultra textures installed I see a max temp of 66-67C and that's good for me now. This is with modded bios on my 980ti so I'm happy so far with my results. Oh before I forget I also removed the back grill for extra airflow. I can feel a lot of air exhausting out of case. The only thing I need is to control the fan speed of the sp120 cause on 100% fan speed it's mega loud and me only having 3x System fan header I'm already using 1 fan splitter that came with my phanteks cooler. for now I have a moleks to fan header and have it hanging out the pcie slots so when I game I will plug it in and when not I just unplug it so just looking for the right fan hub or fan splitter and they not easy to come by here in South Africa


----------



## TheBloodEagle

doyll, do you happen to know what model or where I can get this or similar huge 400mm fan? It was used in the "AeroCool AeroRacer Pro".


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> doyll, do you happen to know what model or where I can get this or similar huge 400mm fan? It was used in the "AeroCool AeroRacer Pro".
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Auto racing parts shop or maybe aerospace supply house? Box fan like used in windows?









Seriously, I have no idea. Sorry about the joking. I doubt that case cooled very well with that fan.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

From reading it seemed to be super quiet & decent. I'm not going to use it for a case fan exactly though, I want to use two of them for side panel fans on a 10U rack in a crazy idea. I'm seriously searching all over just to find the case(s) just to rip the fan out. No luck. =/


----------



## doyll

Have your tried Craigslist, ebay, free cycle, etc? Also any computer recycling centers in your area. Maybe stop by or phone and asked them to keep an eye out for one.


----------



## DiceAir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> As you can see in the below images the Air 540 does not have as much back venting on motherboard compartment as I like to see. Even with PCIe slot covers removed it is still quite restrictive. The added area around fan as well as between PCIe slots covers and vent between PCIe slots and case side area. The rear fan vent looks to be about the right size for 120mm fan, not 140mm fan. Stock case fans in 540 move very little air .. and that's being optomistic and assuming they are running full speed.
> I usually do not install the motherboard I/O shield in case back to improve airflow out of case in back of CPU. This usually lowers motherboard components in that area several degrees. I have been known to cut the stips between PCIe slot openings out too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The front can benefit by cutting the 120mm fan mounting flanges out to 140mm diameter to open up the full fan flow area.


Also to add to my previous discussion is that I figured out that my actual problem is that I must somehow exhaust the hot air that comes from the GPU, Like I said by having the fan blowing on the gpu as exhaust it's actually better than intake and can really feel the hot air coming out of the expansion slots so i need to get more air exhausted from just beneath the gpu and that will help as I think the front air is providing enough fresh air to the gpu. Temps seems a lot better now for me this way.


----------



## QQryQ

Hello guys realy nice thread was nice to read it.

Actually using Rajintek Tisis ( reviews / benchmarks says thats a brother of Noctuna D15 ) in Phantek Enthoo Pro (2 stock fans intake + Enermax T.B Silience UCTB14P out) CPU OCed to 4,9 (1,32Vcore in BIOS if I remember correctly) i7700k having around 50-60C in 50% load was thinking about changing cooling system to AIO to improve performance and maybe reduce the noise level.
My pick for now is thermaltake water 3.0 riing rgb 240 but im not sure its that good as reviews and spec's look.
For now I can hear my fans I believe and I'm afraid its CPU Fans I wanted to achieve same performance or better if its possible (thats why wanted to change cooling into AiO). Is this even worth? Or shall I change CPU Fans?
Is there any chance to have better noise lvl's with better performance? Using AIO's or stay with AIR with good fans? Its not loud but I can hear it pretty much my friend using Fortis 3 MH1425 with Zalman Z3 case with i5 4460 and his setup comparing to mine is "OMG whata silience". Is this possible to have with my setup? Would appreciate any suggesions and help.

Heres HW Monitor and PC


----------



## steveting99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QQryQ*
> 
> Hello guys realy nice thread was nice to read it.
> 
> Actually using Rajintek Tisis ( reviews / benchmarks says thats a brother of Noctuna D15 ) in Phantek Enthoo Pro (2 stock fans intake + Enermax T.B Silience UCTB14P out) CPU OCed to 4,9 (1,32Vcore in BIOS if I remember correctly) i7700k having around 50-60C in 50% load was thinking about changing cooling system to AIO to improve performance and maybe reduce the noise level.
> My pick for now is thermaltake water 3.0 riing rgb 240 but im not sure its that good as reviews and spec's look.
> For now I can hear my fans I believe and I'm afraid its CPU Fans I wanted to achieve same performance or better if its possible (thats why wanted to change cooling into AiO). Is this even worth? Or shall I change CPU Fans?
> Is there any chance to have better noise lvl's with better performance? Using AIO's or stay with AIR with good fans? Its not loud but I can hear it pretty much my friend using Fortis 3 MH1425 with Zalman Z3 case with i5 4460 and his setup comparing to mine is "OMG whata silience". Is this possible to have with my setup? Would appreciate any suggesions and help.
> 
> ...


Believe the best way to do what you want is to implement a fan curve using the delta T method with the AIO.

The idea is that heat generated by the CPU is absorbed by the larger volume of water. Water has a higher specific latent of energy compared to metal, which is what being used for all air coolers. As the water loop has a far greater volume for heat absorption then space on the CPU Integrated Heat Spreader (IHS), it takes a longer time for the loop water temperature to build up. So what heats the CPU up quickly dissipates into the water loop, thus the temperature within the water loop is slower in climbing up compared to the CPU core temp.

The fans on the radiator is tied to this air/water delta. The fans will spin on low speed initially with a low air/water delta. As the air/water delta slowly increases, the fans on the radiator will also slowly increase. This is far better than the rapid increase/decrease in the fan speed of an air cooler that is tied to the CPU core temp. It is this rapid increase/decrease in the fan speed that is noticeable / audible and may bother some who are sensitive to noise.

As doyll and others will tell you, there are some downsides to having a water loop and implementing delta T.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QQryQ*
> 
> Hello guys realy nice thread was nice to read it.
> 
> Actually using Rajintek Tisis ( reviews / benchmarks says thats a brother of Noctuna D15 ) in Phantek Enthoo Pro (2 stock fans intake + Enermax T.B Silience UCTB14P out) CPU OCed to 4,9 (1,32Vcore in BIOS if I remember correctly) i7700k having around 50-60C in 50% load was thinking about changing cooling system to AIO to improve performance and maybe reduce the noise level.
> My pick for now is thermaltake water 3.0 riing rgb 240 but im not sure its that good as reviews and spec's look.
> For now I can hear my fans I believe and I'm afraid its CPU Fans I wanted to achieve same performance or better if its possible (thats why wanted to change cooling into AiO). Is this even worth? Or shall I change CPU Fans?
> Is there any chance to have better noise lvl's with better performance? Using AIO's or stay with AIR with good fans? Its not loud but I can hear it pretty much my friend using Fortis 3 MH1425 with Zalman Z3 case with i5 4460 and his setup comparing to mine is "OMG whata silience". Is this possible to have with my setup? Would appreciate any suggesions and help.
> 
> Heres HW Monitor and PC
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Good cooler and low temps, but CPU is not working very hard. would be interesting to see what temps are at 100% load.

Unless you have deep pockets and get a real water cooling loop (CLCs are not 'real' water cooling) a good air cooler in a case optimjzed to supply cool air to cooler will cool things just fine.

While I have not used any Raijintek coolers Tisis seems to be a good cooler. It's a better cooler than your friends Fortis.

Which fans does your Enthoo Pro have, a 200mm front intake fan or all 140mm fans?

Have you setup a custom case fan curve with fans' speed based on temperatures?

What is the air temp going into cooler?

If it is more than 3.5c warmer than room when stress testing we need to work on your case airflow.

Have you read 5th post in this thread? It gives a basic explanation of airflow and how to setup case airflow. That is a good place to start.

While what steveting99 said above is mostly true there is much not said. Water cooling is dependent on coolant flow rate, how well the waterblock absorbs heat from CPU and how well radaitor releases heat into air. Sure, it takes a loop longer to reach stable water temp, but it reaches it in about 20-30 minutes, so unless you never work CPU hard for more than 20-30 minutes CPU gets hot. This is all compounded by the extremely low coolant flow rat of CLCs. All of this is not keeping system cooler, it is only postponing how long it takes system to heat up.
CLC pumps flow 40-60 L/h. AIOs like Alphacool Eisbaer, be quiet! Silent Loop and Fractal Design Kelvin flow 72-100 L/h. Swiftech H series AIO flows up to 660 L/h.
By comparisong the D5 pump, arguably the most popular custom loop pump used today, flows up to1500 L/h. So we have CLC's being hyped up as good cooling because they are 'water cooling', but CLS flow rate is 1/37th to 1/25th of what custom loops are .. and 1/16th for most and 1/3rd of best AIOs.

With an air cooler the maximum temp should be reached in 2-5 minutes. If it is taking 20-30 minutes to reach maximum temp the case airflow is usually not supplying the cooler with cool air, but allowing heated air from components to mix into cool airflow and thereby heating up cooler's airflow .. and every degree warmer the airflow is basically means a degree hotter the CPU is.

There is all kinds of testing (real testing) that shows CLCs are at best about the same as good air cooling. Any review using a case that does not monitor and record airflow temperatures going into cooler at same time they are recording CPU temps is not going to be accurate. If testing is being done in a case it is even more inaccurate .. by 5c to as much as 25-30c off .. because that is how much warmer / hotter the airflow into cooler can be than the room air temperature. If the CLC is being mounted in a case as intake (which is what many CLC installation manuals say to do) it is using air 5-30c cooler than air coolers being tested in same case!! That translates into 5-30c cooler they will claim CPU is compared to air coolers!! That is 5-30c of inaccuracy that lead the uninformed cooler customer into thinking CLCs are better then air.

I haven't even got to how poorly CLCs are made, how they are 'throw-a-way' coolers that are built so there is no way to realistically replace components, there is no way to add coolant as needed, that they use cheap aluminum radiators with many more fins per inch than copper radiators and require high speed / loud fans to move enough air through them to cool, or that when they fail (usually the pump) the CPU has no cooling and you can't use your system until you replace the CLC with a new cooler .. not a low cost fix.

With an air cooler the only things that can go wrong are TIM drying out and needing replaced and dirt / dust in fins and fans (same as with CLCs) or a fan. If cooler has 2 fans one will cool within 1-3c as well,. If only one fan most big coolers will still cool with no fan for low load use .. and any fan can be attached with rubber bands until proper replacement is in hand.

Sorry for the ranting about CLCs. Can you tell how much I hate their extremely poor build quality and false performance claims by their OEMs' (CLCs are 99% made by Asetek or IDCooling), the companies' putting their name on them and review sites' advertising hype duping uninformed public into buying them .. and these uniformed buyers installing them as intake and turning their computer case into an oven while claiming their CLC is cooling there 3000w CPU 2c below room temperature at inaudible sound levels.














:

Well, there you have it. No idea how many times I've said it. blushsmil


----------



## QQryQ

Thanks for answer I think I'll stay with AIR dont need to throw money on AIO's and good water cooling is out of my reach ;-) to improve what I have got two ideas:

1. Changing fans on CPU cooler for some better (Noctuna maybe?)
2. Adding TOP Fan as intake - near CPU cooler to increase air going through the radiator ( have to check what side the cpu fans are spining to not block air infront of fans.
3. Not sure bout that but adding bottom fan (near two intake fans) to direct air closer cpu fans ?


----------



## Melcar

Bottom intake fans are great for GPU cooling, provided they are close. Top intakes are are also good for tower coolers, again, provide they are installed at the proper distance/location. Keep in mind that top intake fans tend to draw more dust than front or even bottom fans.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QQryQ*
> 
> Thanks for answer I think I'll stay with AIR dont need to throw money on AIO's and good water cooling is out of my reach ;-) to improve what I have got two ideas:
> 
> 1. Changing fans on CPU cooler for some better (Noctuna maybe?)
> 2. Adding TOP Fan as intake - near CPU cooler to increase air going through the radiator ( have to check what side the cpu fans are spining to not block air infront of fans.
> 3. Not sure bout that but adding bottom fan (near two intake fans) to direct air closer cpu fans ?


While I agree with Melcar about bottom intake because GPU fans are on same plane as bottom intake, top intake very often cause turbulence in front of CPU cooler fans and lower their airflow. 2x 140mm front intakes should move much more air into case and toward CPU and GPU than CPU cooler fan will use, and bottom intake helps supply GPU with plenty of cool air. With case fans speed controlled to cycle with cooler fans we get nice smooth airflow to everything from idle to full load.


----------



## Melcar

That's why I wrote that it depends on the mounting position. If the top intake is way over in the front of the case it won't do anything other than pump air into the case and possibly conflicting with you front fans. If the top intake in right above your CPU cooler then it will also have a negative effect. A top intake to be effective needs to be right in front of the forward-most fan on your CPU cooler.


----------



## doyll

My many years of experience in design and flow of air through fans have taught me many things. One of them is that often te airflow pattern off of a fan's exhaust directly in front of a fan intake mounted at right angles often disrupts the air being drawn into that fan.


----------



## Melcar

Silverstone had a short animated guide on airflow that touched on that.


----------



## QQryQ

Is my simple draw is correct idea to increase air flow in case? or will make airblow like that ?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QQryQ*
> 
> 
> 
> Is my simple draw is correct idea to increase air flow in case? or will make airblow like that ?


The airflow in front of CPU cooler fan from top fan may cause turbulence in air being drawn into cooler fan and lower cooler airflow.
Bottom fan is not feeding air into end of GPU, but into bottom of it. GPU fans intake the air. Case bottom intake will likely perform better if case is raised up on taller feet or blocks so there is about 40mm clearance between case bottom and what it is setting on.
Best way to figure it out is to try each combination while monitoring airflow into cooler and CPU / GPU temps.


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QQryQ*
> 
> 
> 
> Is my simple draw is correct idea to increase air flow in case? or will make airblow like that ?


I'd imagine both the red and yellow airflow paths would be deflected, not just the yellow airflow path.


----------



## steveting99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Good cooler and low temps, but CPU is not working very hard. would be interesting to see what temps are at 100% load.
> 
> ...
> 
> Have you setup a custom case fan curve with fans' speed based on temperatures?
> 
> What is the air temp going into cooler?
> 
> If it is more than 3.5c warmer than room when stress testing we need to work on your case airflow.
> 
> ...


Hi doyll,

Understand your pet peeve for CLC and preference for air type cooling. If QQryQ can get the airflow to be correct within the case and is still interested in quiet / cool operation of the rig, believe a delta T fan curve controller is still the way to go with a multi-point fan point adjustments.

(1) The case fans can work based on the average temperature inside the case less the ambient. I.e. delta T. The average internal case value can be the average of CPU + GPU + other thermal sensors located strategically within the case.

(2) For the CPU cooler fan, again a delta T implementation. Thinking between the inlet and outlet of CPU heat sink and average internal case temp.

Believe the above will give a low noise operation during normal / low load conditions. Then ramp up under load.

An example of such a controller is the AQ 6XT by Aquaero. A bit pricey, but well worth the cost with the unique features on offer.


----------



## QQryQ

Hmm was thinking about somethink else also,

That I can put two fans bottom and top but I'm afraid I can make airblow easy like that.


To avoid that I'll need to setup fan curve manually and define it like:

When main fans ( 2 front + 1 out ) spining 100% top and bottom need to spin around 30% less so lets say 70%
When they have 50% support one should being around 30% in that scenario its possible to work like that?

Ofcourse forgot to check direction of CPU fan spin if they will spin because theres difference



In scenario A top fan will help cpu fan to take air but if they spin in other direction like in scenario B top fan will mess much than help for cpu fan I'm right?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *steveting99*
> 
> Hi doyll,
> 
> Understand your pet peeve for CLC and preference for air type cooling. If QQryQ can get the airflow to be correct within the case and is still interested in quiet / cool operation of the rig, believe a delta T fan curve controller is still the way to go with a multi-point fan point adjustments.
> 
> (1) The case fans can work based on the average temperature inside the case less the ambient. I.e. delta T. The average internal case value can be the average of CPU + GPU + other thermal sensors located strategically within the case.
> 
> (2) For the CPU cooler fan, again a delta T implementation. Thinking between the inlet and outlet of CPU heat sink and average internal case temp.
> 
> Believe the above will give a low noise operation during normal / low load conditions. Then ramp up under load.
> 
> An example of such a controller is the AQ 6XT by Aquaero. A bit pricey, but well worth the cost with the unique features on offer.


Not sure what you are trying to say.

I do not care what the 'average temperature' inside my case is near as much as what the component (GPU / CPU) intake air temp is when CPU & GPU are working hard (80-100% load). That is when case airlfow has to be supplying cool air to them .. and when most people have problems keeping them cool.

I am not sure a top intake will help, especially at higher component loads because as fans speed up and airflow increases so does turbulence. The higher the speed the greater the turbulence effect on cooler intake is .. resulting in cooler fan not being able to draw needed air in and push it on through cooler.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QQryQ*
> 
> Hmm was thinking about somethink else also,
> 
> That I can put two fans bottom and top but I'm afraid I can make airblow easy like that.
> 
> 
> To avoid that I'll need to setup fan curve manually and define it like:
> 
> When main fans ( 2 front + 1 out ) spining 100% top and bottom need to spin around 30% less so lets say 70%
> When they have 50% support one should being around 30% in that scenario its possible to work like that?
> 
> Ofcourse forgot to check direction of CPU fan spin if they will spin because theres difference
> 
> 
> 
> In scenario A top fan will help cpu fan to take air but if they spin in other direction like in scenario B top fan will mess much than help for cpu fan I'm right?


You are way over-thinking this and it's becoming totally a total fubar.

You seem to be forgetting that airflow is the same as water flow. When we push air into the case (intake fans) it moves on the path of least resistance .. that is through open areas with nothing in it's way. Our job is to give it these open areas / pathways to component coolers and then from component cooler to exhaust vents.

Think of the air as water and the fan as a propeller. When the propeller turns it causes the water to swirl around on exhaust side of propeller .. it disturbs the water. It doesn't matter if the water is moving (like in a river) or if it is still (like in a lake). This swirling disturbance is what I am referring to when I say a top intake might cause problems.

The straighter the airflow (water flow) is, the less swirling (disturbance) there is and the smoother it flows the more it can flow.

Changing airflow direction inside the case causes disturbance meaning it takes more powerful fans to move the air to where it need to be .. the coolers.

We are now back to front and bottom intake, not top venting, all unused PCIe slot covers removed and probably no rear exhaust fan needed.


----------



## gigolobob

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> Phanteks Enthoo Pro is about $100 but the 200mm fan it comes with is junk, so would need 2x PH-F140SP, PH-F140XP or PH-F140MP front intake fans. I have Enthoo Luxe ($150) which is same case with different top and front panels with PSU cover removed for 1x bottom intake and 2x front intakes, unused PCIe back slot covers removed and case fan speed curve based on CPU and GPU heat. 2 bottom filters can easily be modified to be 1 piece and slide out the front .. which makes cleaning PSU filter much easier.
> 
> Enthoo Pro M is also pretty good but smaller with no optical bays in front.
> 
> Fractal Design has some good cases. Define R5 is $90-110 on newegg and very nice, but stock fans are terrible and would need replaced. I have much older Define R3 and love it.


Out of the 3 Phanteks fans, the XP seems like the best choice for me because it's just like the SP but can run at different RPMs, and I plan on using air cooling in a case with minimal obstruction of the front intakes (no drive cages blocking) so the MP might not be as optimal. They are all the same price though.

Also, do you recommended PH-F140SP, PH-F140XP and PH-F140MP fans over all other fans? The Thermalright TY-14x seems to come up a lot in this thread. Also the Noctua NF-A14 has higher max RPM, cfm, and static pressure specs than the Phanteks, so I'm curious on what you think about those.


----------



## Arengeta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> Out of the 3 Phanteks fans, the XP seems like the best choice for me because it's just like the SP but can run at different RPMs, and I plan on using air cooling in a case with minimal obstruction of the front intakes (no drive cages blocking) so the MP might not be as optimal. They are all the same price though.
> 
> Also, do you recommended PH-F140SP, PH-F140XP and PH-F140MP fans over all other fans? The Thermalright TY-14x seems to come up a lot in this thread. Also the Noctua NF-A14 has higher max RPM, cfm, and static pressure specs than the Phanteks, so I'm curious on what you think about those.


Usually a fan without PWM controller makes less noise (PWM fans can make very silent ticking noise, so if your computer is right next to you the 3pin version will be more silent). All modern motherboards can control the fans by voltage or by PWM signal so it does not really matter.
As for Thermalright they are the best price/performance. Noctua NF-A14 has only better specs on paper. You can check them at coolingtechnique, they have the NF-A14/A15 and Phanteks fans reviewed there.


----------



## JackCY

I like the thermalright fans, they are similar shape as Noctua A14 I think it is but perform better in tests at least for my use. Sadly Thermalright is hard to buy in some regions and they are not cheap either, same crazy price as most other brands though Noctua is the king of milking.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> Out of the 3 Phanteks fans, the XP seems like the best choice for me because it's just like the SP but can run at different RPMs, and I plan on using air cooling in a case with minimal obstruction of the front intakes (no drive cages blocking) so the MP might not be as optimal. They are all the same price though.
> 
> Also, do you recommended PH-F140SP, PH-F140XP and PH-F140MP fans over all other fans? The Thermalright TY-14x seems to come up a lot in this thread. Also the Noctua NF-A14 has higher max RPM, cfm, and static pressure specs than the Phanteks, so I'm curious on what you think about those.


Out of the three Phanteks fans I prefer the MP.

But as Arengeta and JackCY said, Thermalright TY-14x series are better if you can get them.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> Out of the 3 Phanteks fans, the XP seems like the best choice for me because it's just like the SP but can run at different RPMs, and I plan on using air cooling in a case with minimal obstruction of the front intakes (no drive cages blocking) so the MP might not be as optimal. They are all the same price though.
> 
> Also, do you recommended PH-F140SP, PH-F140XP and PH-F140MP fans over all other fans? The Thermalright TY-14x seems to come up a lot in this thread. Also the Noctua NF-A14 has higher max RPM, cfm, and static pressure specs than the Phanteks, so I'm curious on what you think about those.


XP would work fine.
I like T-14x series better. Basically same fan as NF-A14.


----------



## gigolobob

Thanks for the responses everyone, I'm new to overclocking and airflow so I really appreciate your help. I'm planning for 2x TY-147a for front intake and a Noctua NF-S12A for rear exhaust in my old Corsair 300R with the Noctua NH-D15 (i'm planning on moving to a new case and build in the future). Would this be a good configuration and choice of fans for optimizing airflow? Also do you think 2x TY-147a for front intake is powerful enough for keeping temps down during OCing?


----------



## TheBloodEagle

doyll, what do you think about the Raijintek EREBOSS CORE and TISIS CORE?

http://www.raijintek.com/en/products_detail.php?ProductID=22

http://www.raijintek.com/en/products_detail.php?ProductID=30


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> doyll, what do you think about the Raijintek EREBOSS CORE and TISIS CORE?
> 
> http://www.raijintek.com/en/products_detail.php?ProductID=22
> http://www.raijintek.com/en/products_detail.php?ProductID=30


I have not used either of these coolers.

Ereboss is basically a copy of Thermalright HR-02 / Macho 140mm fanned cooler. I would use a fan on cooler too. Overall noise levels will be lower at same temps because case fans will not need to spin as fast to keep airflow through cooler.

I don't think Tisis is a good.

I would get Thermalright Le Grand Macho if you want semi-passive, but I would use the included TY-147A fan on it for same reasons as above.


----------



## gigolobob

I'm considering the Phanteks Enthoo Pro M, but my concern is that the top intake fan does not provide completely direct airflow to the CPU.



Notice how the front intake fan airflow path is below where the CPU would be. I feel like a case such as https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811353125 might be better since its 3 fans provide a more direct airflow path to the CPU. What do you guys think?

Also an unrelated question: Do bigger cases generally provide better airflow/lower temps than smaller cases?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> I'm considering the Phanteks Enthoo Pro M, but my concern is that the top intake fan does not provide completely direct airflow to the CPU.
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the front intake fan airflow path is below where the CPU would be. I feel like a case such as https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811353125 might be better since its 3 fans provide a more direct airflow path to the CPU. What do you guys think?
> 
> Also an unrelated question: Do bigger cases generally provide better airflow/lower temps than smaller cases?


Front fans in Enthoo Pro M can be mounted higher and work very well. Top intake fans often cause air turbulence and don't improve cooler.

If case is so small that it does not have enough intake and exhaust venting then it will not flow air as well as a larger case with enough or more than enough vent area. Enthoo Pro M is not too small a case, but if you want something a little bigger the Enthoo Pro would be a good candidate.


----------



## gigolobob

The concern I have with mounting the fans higher is that the front optical panel would block part of the fan intake. It would've been great if the optical bay was removed entirely and the entire front is a vent.


----------



## gigolobob

I think I will get the Phanteks Enthoo Pro M. Planning on placing 2 TY-147a for front intakes. Any suggestions for what rear exhaust fan to use (it supports 120 and 140mm)? Also should I consider adding an exhaust fan up top?


----------



## Melcar

If you have a tower cooler, your exhaust should at the very least have the same airflow rating. I usually like to have the same fans as both rear exhaust and for the CPU cooler and link both their PWM signals. Another option is to have two slower exhausts, one in the rear and another in the rear position of the top panel (behind the CPU cooler and above the VRMs).
You can go for top mounted intakes too. They work well as long as they are mounted at the proper position (right in front of the CPU cooler, but not too far up front or right above). If you do set a top intake, best not to have a top exhaust. Also, top intake fans have an easier time drawing in dust, so make sure you have some extra filters around (and that you like cleaning your case more often







). Chances are you don't need an extra intake. Those two front fans you plan on using should be enough.


----------



## gigolobob

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melcar*
> 
> If you have a tower cooler, your exhaust should at the very least have the same airflow rating. I usually like to have the same fans as both rear exhaust and for the CPU cooler and link both their PWM signals. Another option is to have two slower exhausts, one in the rear and another in the rear position of the top panel (behind the CPU cooler and above the VRMs).
> You can go for top mounted intakes too. They work well as long as they are mounted at the proper position (right in front of the CPU cooler, but not too far up front or right above). If you do set a top intake, best not to have a top exhaust. Also, top intake fans have an easier time drawing in dust, so make sure you have some extra filters around (and that you like cleaning your case more often
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). Chances are you don't need an extra intake. Those two front fans you plan on using should be enough.


Planning to use the Noctua NH-D15 which uses 2xNF-A15 140mm. What rear exhaust fan would you recommend if I'm not adding any top fans?


----------



## Melcar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> Planning to use the Noctua NH-D15 which uses 2xNF-A15 140mm. What rear exhaust fan would you recommend if I'm not adding any top fans?


If you don't need two fans on the cooler, then see if one of them fits in the rear panel. If not, there are a few fans that offer similar airflow and pressure, like the PH-140MP. There are other faster fans, but it depends on how loud you want your PC.


----------



## gigolobob

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melcar*
> 
> If you don't need two fans on the cooler, then see if one of them fits in the rear panel. If not, there are a few fans that offer similar airflow and pressure, like the PH-140MP. There are other faster fans, but it depends on how loud you want your PC.


I intend to keep both fans on the cooler. The Phanteks Enthoo Pro M comes with the 140mm PH-F140SP for the rear fan. I think that should be sufficient?


----------



## Melcar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> I intend to keep both fans on the cooler. The Phanteks Enthoo Pro M comes with the 140mm PH-F140SP for the rear fan. I think that should be sufficient?


The SP is like 70ish CFM with so-so static pressure. Try it first. If you are not pushing heavy overclocks with very high heat loads, the trapped hot air should not be much of a problem. Otherwise you should get a second SP fan as a top exhaust.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> I think I will get the Phanteks Enthoo Pro M. Planning on placing 2 TY-147a for front intakes. Any suggestions for what rear exhaust fan to use (it supports 120 and 140mm)? Also should I consider adding an exhaust fan up top?


Pro M comes with a fan using PH-F140SP like housing and motor with a PH-F140MP like impeller. With 2x TY-147A SQ front intakes I would use it as the exhaust fan .. and remove all unused PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> Planning to use the Noctua NH-D15 which uses 2xNF-A15 140mm. What rear exhaust fan would you recommend if I'm not adding any top fans?


Answer above
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> I intend to keep both fans on the cooler. The Phanteks Enthoo Pro M comes with the 140mm PH-F140SP for the rear fan. I think that should be sufficient?


What Malcar said is only partially true. PH-F140SP is a good case fan. In 2 cases that came with PH-F140SP fans I switched to TY-147A SQ fans and tested them to see what the differences were. While there is a little difference in the fan tone, both cases I tested at idle and full load on CPU, on GPU and on bothCPU & GPU. All results were near identical in temps and dB at same rpm.

Also Phanteks changed cases fans from PH-F140SP to a 1200rpm fan (looks like same housing and motor as PH-F140SP) with a PH-F140MP like impeller over a year ago. While Phanteks site for other than Americas does indeed list case fans as PH-F140SP, the PhanteksUSA site removed the PH-F140SP from case specifications and now has no fan model number or fan specifications listed.

If I was building a Pro M with TY-147A SQ front intakes I would block all opening in front panel except where fans are so none of the air front intakes are pushing leaks back in front of intake fans. This forces the intake air to flow through the case .. back around GPU and to CPU, then on back and out of case. And if I wanted to match cooler fans to black & white theme I would use TY-147A fans on cooler.









With PCIe slots functioning as additional vent area you probably won't even need an exhaust fan .. and one behind D15 cooler will flow plenty even if it is rated with a little less flow then NF-A15 fans.

I assume you plan to run TY-147A fans so their speed cycles with cooler fans, so they will be supplying cool air to coolers as needed.


----------



## gigolobob

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Pro M comes with a fan using PH-F140SP like housing and motor with a PH-F140MP like impeller. With 2x TY-147A SQ front intakes I would use it as the exhaust fan .. and remove all unused PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU.
> Answer above
> What Malcar said is only partially true. PH-F140SP is a good case fan. In 2 cases that came with PH-F140SP fans I switched to TY-147A SQ fans and tested them to see what the differences were. While there is a little difference in the fan tone, both cases I tested at idle and full load on CPU, on GPU and on bothCPU & GPU. All results were near identical in temps and dB at same rpm.
> 
> Also Phanteks changed cases fans from PH-F140SP to a 1200rpm fan (looks like same housing and motor as PH-F140SP) with a PH-F140MP like impeller over a year ago. While Phanteks site for other than Americas does indeed list case fans as PH-F140SP, the PhanteksUSA site removed the PH-F140SP from case specifications and now has no fan model number or fan specifications listed.
> 
> If I was building a Pro M with TY-147A SQ front intakes I would block all opening in front panel except where fans are so none of the air front intakes are pushing leaks back in front of intake fans. This forces the intake air to flow through the case .. back around GPU and to CPU, then on back and out of case. And if I wanted to match cooler fans to black & white theme I would use TY-147A fans on cooler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With PCIe slots functioning as additional vent area you probably won't even need an exhaust fan .. and one behind D15 cooler will flow plenty even if it is rated with a little less flow then NF-A15 fans.
> 
> I assume you plan to run TY-147A fans so their speed cycles with cooler fans, so they will be supplying cool air to coolers as needed.


Thanks for the detailed info. I've never messed with fan curves before but I'm planning to connect all case fans to the mobo's chassis fan connectors. What do you mean to run "TY-147A fans so their speed cycles with cooler fans" ? Are you suggesting I set the same fan curve for the front intake and cooler fans?
Also same for rear exhaust fan? Should I do this in the BIOS or with software like SpeedFan? Sorry for so many questions, I'm a big noob


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gigolobob*
> 
> Thanks for the detailed info. I've never messed with fan curves before but I'm planning to connect all case fans to the mobo's chassis fan connectors. What do you mean to run "TY-147A fans so their speed cycles with cooler fans" ? Are you suggesting I set the same fan curve for the front intake and cooler fans?
> Also same for rear exhaust fan? Should I do this in the BIOS or with software like SpeedFan? Sorry for so many questions, I'm a big noob


I mean set setting custom fan curves so case fans are running fast enough to move a little more airflow than cooler fans are using at whatever speed they are running to keep CPU and/or GPU temps where you want them. You might find "Ways to better Cooling" link in my sig of interest. 1st post is index click on topic to see it. 5th is a good place to start as it explains case airflow and how to optimize it by monitoring case airflow temp and adjusting fan speed curves.


----------



## Gilles3000

@doyll Would you happen to have one of those handy dandy technical drawings for the Macho Rev.B? Just acquired one at a really good price, and still need to get a new motherboard, so I might as well get one that fits it nicely.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gilles3000*
> 
> @doyll Would you happen to have one of those handy dandy technical drawings for the Macho Rev.B? Just acquired one at a really good price, and still need to get a new motherboard, so I might as well get one that fits it nicely.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gilles3000*
> 
> @doyll Would you happen to have one of those handy dandy technical drawings for the Macho Rev.B? Just acquired one at a really good price, and still need to get a new motherboard, so I might as well get one that fits it nicely.


There's on in Macho Rev. B & Macho Zero thread:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1525706/thermalright-releases-new-macho-rev-b-macho-zero/0_20


----------



## Gilles3000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> There's on in Macho Rev. B & Macho Zero thread:
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1525706/thermalright-releases-new-macho-rev-b-macho-zero/0_20


Aha thanks.

And I've been wondering, wouldn't it be nice if there was a (potentially official) Thermalright Club?


----------



## AshBorer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gilles3000*
> 
> Aha thanks.
> 
> And I've been wondering, wouldn't it be nice if there was a (potentially official) Thermalright Club?


I think it would be very nice.


----------



## egrest

Can anyone answer a few questions of mine?
1) For a dual tower, such as the Cryorig R1 Universal: Is it recommended that i mount exhaust fans at the rear and back -top OR mount an intake at the fornt-top?
2) Should I be using 140mm fans or 120 mm fans? The 140mm has similar static pressure rating but has slightly higher CFM and noise-level.

My case is the Fractal Design Midi Arc R2 if it helps.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *egrest*
> 
> Can anyone answer a few questions of mine?
> 1) For a dual tower, such as the Cryorig R1 Universal: Is it recommended that i mount exhaust fans at the rear and back -top OR mount an intake at the fornt-top?
> 2) Should I be using 140mm fans or 120 mm fans? The 140mm has similar static pressure rating but has slightly higher CFM and noise-level.
> 
> My case is the Fractal Design Midi Arc R2 if it helps.


The stock fans in Midi Arc R2 are wimpy at best. Get yourself 3x good 140mm fans like Phanteks PH-F140SP, PH-F140:XP, Ph-F140MP, TY-147A SQ, or any of a number of others that have a max speed of about 1300-1500rpm and a pressure rating of 1.33-1.7mm H2O (your case's Silent Series R2 are 800rpm 0.54mm H2O). Use 2x as front intake, 3rd as bottom intake with bottom fan speed controlled by GPU temp and front fans speed controled by CPU tem and remove all PCIe back slot covers from unused slots. This will give hou good front to back airflow around GPU and a nice cool air supply to both GPU and CPU.

5th post in this thread is about case airflow and how to set it up properly.


----------



## egrest

Thanks doyll. I got some 120mm Delta fans for cheap, I guess I might as well experiment with some fan configurations.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gilles3000*
> 
> Aha thanks.
> 
> And I've been wondering, wouldn't it be nice if there was a (potentially official) Thermalright Club?


We could, but what would it be fore exactly? Do you want to put all Thermalright coolers in this new thread? I have 27 folders of drawing and data for Thermalright coolers / cooler groups. I think almost all have a thread of their own now .. or at least a thread for each group, like Silver Arrow, HR-02 / Macho with dimensional drawings, test/review links, etc.

Don't get me wrong, it might be a great idea to have a Thermalright thread. I'm only trying to determine if it will be active enough to keep it on first page or two of threads so people keep using it. Not pointing fingers because I know you do a lot of research / searching web for things and I assume searching here on OCN too. But you didn't find drawing until I linked you to it. Again, not trying to put you on the spot here, just using you as an example of how what we have didn't work for you and trying to figure out how best to implement a new thread so it is most functional.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *egrest*
> 
> Thanks doyll. I got some 120mm Delta fans for cheap, I guess I might as well experiment with some fan configurations.


They should work just fine. Maybe block off all of front and bottom venting that does not have a fan in it so the pressure these intake fans make pushes air back and out of case and not just leak back in front / below the intake fans. ans for cheap, I guess I might as well experiment with some fan configurations.[/quote]


----------



## Gilles3000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> We could, but what would it be fore exactly? Do you want to put all Thermalright coolers in this new thread? I have 27 folders of drawing and data for Thermalright coolers / cooler groups. I think almost all have a thread of their own now .. or at least a thread for each group, like Silver Arrow, HR-02 / Macho with dimensional drawings, test/review links, etc.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it might be a great idea to have a Thermalright thread. I'm only trying to determine if it will be active enough to keep it on first page or two of threads so people keep using it. Not pointing fingers because I know you do a lot of research / searching web for things and I assume searching here on OCN too. But you didn't find drawing until I linked you to it. Again, not trying to put you on the spot here, just using you as an example of how what we have didn't work for you and trying to figure out how best to implement a new thread so it is most functional.


Tbh, even if you wanted to put me on the spot, it would've been completely justified. It was a pretty long day and just couldn't be assed to look for it, I figured they're your drawings, so I just asked.







But I'm sure I would've found it if i had spend a minute or 2 to look for it.

But my thoughts behind a main Thermalright Club is that it could be more active than a bunch of fragmented threads, and would make it easier for some more general questions, discussion and recommendations.

Or maybe, an Official OCN Air Cooling Club and Gallery? I know that there are separate galleries for AMD/Intel already, but I don't think that separation is necessary anymore considering almost any cooler wil work for both these days. And some general questions, discussion and recommendations would be nice.

It would also make for a good place to put links to all the other air cooling clubs/product threads and links to guides, etc.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gilles3000*
> 
> Tbh, even if you wanted to put me on the spot, it would've been completely justified. It was a pretty long day and just couldn't be assed to look for it, I figured they're your drawings, so I just asked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I'm sure I would've found it if i had spend a minute or 2 to look for it.
> 
> But my thoughts behind a main Thermalright Club is that it could be more active than a bunch of fragmented threads, and would make it easier for some more general questions, discussion and recommendations.
> 
> Or maybe, an Official OCN Air Cooling Club and Gallery? I know that there are separate galleries for AMD/Intel already, but I don't think that separation is necessary anymore considering almost any cooler wil work for both these days. And some general questions, discussion and recommendations would be nice.
> 
> It would also make for a good place to put links to all the other air cooling clubs/product threads and links to guides, etc.


Your laps in due diligence are not an issue. We all cut corners on occasion.

Okay, I guess this is as good a place as any to discuss what we want in Thermalright thread opening post. We can keep the first several post reserved for info and links to other sources of info and data. We could use one for links to different cooler threads,one for fan threads, Anything else you can think of?


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Have you asked for threads like this one (especially this one) and the Thermalright one being proposed to be made into sticky threads?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Have you asked for threads like this one (especially this one) and the Thermalright one being proposed to be made into sticky threads?


This one maybe, but if OCN did a sticky for Thermalright thread, that would open the door for even cooler brand having a sticky thread and I'm afraid the first page or two of Air Cooling would be nothing but sticky threads.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Have you asked for threads like this one (especially this one) and the Thermalright one being proposed to be made into sticky threads?
> 
> 
> 
> This one maybe, but if OCN did a sticky for Thermalright thread, that would open the door for even cooler brand having a sticky thread and I'm afraid the first page or two of Air Cooling would be nothing but sticky threads.
Click to expand...

How about one sticky thread that has links to the various other threads in the first post. It could be kept closed so people don't junk it up with extraneous posts.


----------



## becks

Hello,

Do you guys know of any other 140mm fans with Start-Stop other than EK ER's ? and any suggestions for a Aura sync compatible and performance fan for radiators ? also in 140mm...

My best bet is Phanteks Halos RGB so far...

Thank you


----------



## crpcookie

Does it matter if thermal paste doesn’t fully cover the CPU?


----------



## Loladinas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crpcookie*
> 
> Does it matter if thermal paste doesn't fully cover the CPU?


It depends if it has a heatspreader of if it's a bare die. Former isn't too much of an issue, latter will cause problems.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> How about one sticky thread that has links to the various other threads in the first post. It could be kept closed so people don't junk it up with extraneous posts.


Please elaborate. What would the title for this single sticky thread be? Are you thinking it would be an index for all cooler threads in 'Air Cooling'?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *becks*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Do you guys know of any other 140mm fans with Start-Stop other than EK ER's ? and any suggestions for a Aura sync compatible and performance fan for radiators ? also in 140mm...
> 
> My best bet is Phanteks Halos RGB so far...
> 
> Thank you


I don't, but some good fan controllers have ability to stop fans below a set temp / speed.
Yeah, Phanteks Halos' are only ones I know of.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crpcookie*
> 
> Does it matter if thermal paste doesn't fully cover the CPU?


As long as TIM print covers the area where CPU die/chip is under IHS. All of IHS does not need to be covered by TIM print.
10th post this thread has images of many CPU chips and how TIM print works.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Loladinas*
> 
> It depends if it has a heatspreader of if it's a bare die. Former isn't too much of an issue, latter will cause problems.


What Loladinas said.


----------



## ultr4zone

Can you help me about this mining rig box. I wanna make 1 of it with dimension 1mx0.75mx1.25m.
With that dimension, what fan optimal and do I only need 1 exhaust fan or better add intake fans from bottom?


Thank you for everyone help.
PS: Project courtesy of twotonhasher


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Hey Doyll,

Got a bit of a question for you.... it might be too much but I figured I'd come to you as you could possibly give me a ballpark.

Scenario:
DDCM desk PC

Cooling
Full liquid cooling loop CPU and GPU

Intake: 3 In-Win Aurora fans behind filter material

Mid Shelf(zone separation)
2x Alphacool NexXxos Xflow radiators fpi w/ In-Win Aurora fans in pull configuration

Question:
How much free exhaust space do I need for my mesh exhaust opening(no fan) to maintain a slight positive pressure? Let me know what else you might need measurement wise to make a guess. Pics of desk below.

Intake


Radiator midplate


Exhaust location


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*
> 
> Hey Doyll,
> 
> Got a bit of a question for you.... it might be too much but I figured I'd come to you as you could possibly give me a ballpark.
> 
> Scenario:
> DDCM desk PC
> 
> Cooling
> Full liquid cooling loop CPU and GPU
> 
> Intake: 3 In-Win Aurora fans behind filter material
> 
> Mid Shelf(zone separation)
> 2x Alphacool NexXxos Xflow radiators fpi w/ In-Win Aurora fans in pull configuration
> 
> Question:
> How much free exhaust space do I need for my mesh exhaust opening(no fan) to maintain a slight positive pressure? Let me know what else you might need measurement wise to make a guess. Pics of desk below.
> 
> Intake
> 
> 
> Radiator midplate
> 
> 
> Exhaust location


Do 3x intake fans supplying all the air for 2x radiators? What size radiators? I would want at least as many intake fans on filters as fans on radiators.

With no exhaust fans I woujld make exhaust vent area as big as possible as long as it is downwind of flow from intake to components / radiators to exhaust. Keep in mind the airflow area of intake fans and if possilbe double it. This is because grills greatly disrupt and slow airflow, and as long as exhaust venting area is downwind of all heat tranfer points in airflow all more exhaust vent area does is give less resistance to airflow. Case's intake fans are pushing air into case so there will always be a little possible pressure .. at least enough to stop any airflow leaks in case to be letting air out, not in.


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Do 3x intake fans supplying all the air for 2x radiators? What size radiators? I would want at least as many intake fans on filters as fans on radiators.
> 
> With no exhaust fans I woujld make exhaust vent area as big as possible as long as it is downwind of flow from intake to components / radiators to exhaust. Keep in mind the airflow area of intake fans and if possilbe double it. This is because grills greatly disrupt and slow airflow, and as long as exhaust venting area is downwind of all heat tranfer points in airflow all more exhaust vent area does is give less resistance to airflow. Case's intake fans are pushing air into case so there will always be a little possible pressure .. at least enough to stop any airflow leaks in case to be letting air out, not in.


Yes, unfortunately it's 3 intake to 6 radiator fans. The radiator fans will be run at a lower rpm to be quieter overall. The radiators are each of the 360mm variety. All the fans are 120mm fans.

I was planning on exhausting the PSU fan back outside... would it be better to just let it add to the positive pressure in the lower cabinet instead?

Intake area on both sides of the fan will have a lot of room, inside the cabinet is about the size of a Mountain Mods UFO Duality case. Only things in that area will be 3 fans, the PSU and HDD cage. Neither will impede flow of intake fans.

Plan of exhaust space is below design on back of cabinet at the top near the components.

______
____
__

Each line is 1in thick and lengths are 9in, 7in, 5in


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*
> 
> Yes, unfortunately it's 3 intake to 6 radiator fans. The radiator fans will be run at a lower rpm to be quieter overall. The radiators are each of the 360mm variety. All the fans are 120mm fans.
> 
> I was planning on exhausting the PSU fan back outside... would it be better to just let it add to the positive pressure in the lower cabinet instead?
> 
> Intake area on both sides of the fan will have a lot of room, inside the cabinet is about the size of a Mountain Mods UFO Duality case. Only things in that area will be 3 fans, the PSU and HDD cage. Neither will impede flow of intake fans.
> 
> Plan of exhaust space is below design on back of cabinet at the top near the components.
> 
> ______
> ____
> __
> 
> Each line is 1in thick and lengths are 9in, 7in, 5in


I don't like the idea of 3x 120mm intakes with 6x 120mm on raidators. I would have equal numbers with all rediator exhaust with their fan speed synced with intakes to keep slightly more intake potential then exhaust. Reason I say potential is because case will only flow the lessor of the two; intake or exhaust. But if intake can potentailly flow a little more then exhaust there is a slight positive pressure which will keep unfiltered air from leaking in.


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I don't like the idea of 3x 120mm intakes with 6x 120mm on raidators. I would have equal numbers with all rediator exhaust with their fan speed synced with intakes to keep slightly more intake potential then exhaust. Reason I say potential is because case will only flow the lessor of the two; intake or exhaust. But if intake can potentailly flow a little more then exhaust there is a slight positive pressure which will keep unfiltered air from leaking in.


Ok, that makes sense. Putting more intake fans might be able to do in the future, just not in the budget at the moment. Thanks for the great tips


----------



## bl4ckdot

With 2 360mm radiators (one at the top and one at the front) and 1 120mm fan at the rear, what setup would you do ?
All radiator fans as exhaust and the rear fan as intake ?
front 3 x 120 intake, all others exhaust ?


----------



## Dalchi Frusche

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> With 2 360mm radiators (one at the top and one at the front) and 1 120mm fan at the rear, what setup would you do ?
> All radiator fans as exhaust and the rear fan as intake ?
> front 3 x 120 intake, all others exhaust ?


If it was me, I'd leave the rear exhaust fan off and run the front as intake with the fan curve a bit higher than the top exhaust fans.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*
> 
> Ok, that makes sense. Putting more intake fans might be able to do in the future, just not in the budget at the moment. Thanks for the great tips


Idealy we want intake airflow ability to be slightly more than exhaust airflow. So If we have intake fans moving 30cfm each at 800rpm and 6x of these on 2x radiators I would want case to have 4 or 5 120mm intake vents all having intake fans and 3 on one of one of the 2 radiators. Then have 4 or 5 exhaust vents with 3 of them using radiator and other 1 or 2 just empty vent to let aditional intake airflow being generated by intake fan an easy way to leave case.

5th post in this thread is about case airflow and how to set it up.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dalchi Frusche*
> 
> If it was me, I'd leave the rear exhaust fan off and run the front as intake with the fan curve a bit higher than the top exhaust fans.


Answered above.


----------



## lemniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> Would you happen to have some recommendations on replacement fans? My case fans are NB eloops at 1900rpm (initially planned for my old clc, that's why I picked high rpm) and I feel that they sound nicer than R1's included fans at similar rpm.
> 
> Also a bit nitpicky, but I don't like the XF140's gray housing, they somehow feel kinda cheap, but that's pretty subjective.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I would rather not discuss other thing here in Cryorig thread. Start a thread about your rig or post in 'Ways to Better Cooing' (link is in my sig) and we can disuss it.


Okay let's discuss here.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> Okay let's discuss here.


Okay,there are several good sounding fans. My favorite is Thermalright TY-14x series fans. TY-147A is black housing w/ white impeller and I have them on my R1
 

I prefer the R1 Universal white cooer housings with the black fan housings.


----------



## lemniscate

Oh those look nice.









Any alternatives for the thin fan? I have non low profile memories so I doubt I can fit 25mm thick fan on that side.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> Oh those look nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any alternatives for the thin fan? I have non low profile memories so I doubt I can fit 25mm thick fan on that side.


You could try running just the middle fan to see what temps do. There is a good chance CPU will only be a a couple degrees warmer at same rpm and you could get just a nice fan to put in middle.


----------



## lemniscate

I see I'll go and try that. I'm on vacation starting today so it'll have to wait for a bit. Thanks doyll.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> I see I'll go and try that. I'm on vacation starting today so it'll have to wait for a bit. Thanks doyll.


Please let me know what you find out.


----------



## Bing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> *Thermalright TY-14x fan series*
> 
> TY-14x fans all have almost identical sound at same RPM
> Here are the dbA levels of two TY-143 fans on PH-TC14PE at 1 meter on open bench. These fans have been on this system 24/7 for about 20 months now.
> 1100rpm = 31dBA
> 1300rpm = 34.5dBA
> 1550rpm = 36dBA
> 1700rpm = 39dBA
> 2000rpm = 41dBA
> 2200rpm = 45dBA
> 2420rpm = 46dBA


All TY-14x fans also have same performance curve

Also all but TY-141 have same blade design.

TY-140 . . . . . . . . . . .TY-141. . . . . . . . . . .TY-143 . . . . . . . . . . .TY-147 / TY-147A . . . .TY-147A Black
 

Adding to doyll excellent info, the Thermalright TY fans has two types of impeller/blade designs.

Just tidying up my fans recently, and remembered this excellent thread and took few snapshots.

For example these photos below, two TY fans at the back have the so called "cut back blade" design, its like the back of the blade got chipped, compared to the black TY-142 which doesn't have. Also the blade's front for slicing the air are different.

Put some markings comparing the TY-143 orange impeller which has the "chipped back" vs the black TY-142 which doesn't have it.

The purpose of this chipped blade is to increase dynamic air pressure without increasing RPM, hence toward lower noise. Read it somewhere that presumably an aerodynamic experienced guy, sounds convincing though, or you can google for "cut back blade", you'll get tons of scientific papers regarding this matter.


----------



## lemniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Please let me know what you find out.


Hi doyll, I've tried removing the thin fan, and the difference is small (1-4 deg C hotter across all cores under prime95 AVX small FFT). I think it would matter even less in actual daily workload so I can live with that.









I'll try looking for TY-147A (or 147B, which according to their website is a revision for 147A).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> Hi doyll, I've tried removing the thin fan, and the difference is small (1-4 deg C hotter across all cores under prime95 AVX small FFT). I think it would matter even less in actual daily workload so I can live with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try looking for TY-147A (or 147B, which according to their website is a revision for 147A).


1-2c is what I have seen on most twin tower when using 1 fan. 3c at extreme load. I assume you are overclocking?

TY-147A is solid shroud sides, TY-147B has slots in shroud sides. I've used both on same cooler and in daily use I don't notice any difference in performance and noise levels.


There is also a TY-147A SQ square version that is very good for case and radiator use. Thermalbench tested and reviewed both TY-147A
http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/11/thermalright-ty-147a-sq-140-mm-fan/3/
and TY-147A SQ
http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/11/thermalright-ty-147a-sq-140-mm-fan/3/

While he says the TY-147A SQ is not as good as TY-147A the difference is well within margin of error in manufacture and testing .. and while their airflow to noise graphs are middle of the pack of top tier fans with NB-Eloop B14-PS & B14-3 being about the best scoring, his overall rating is 85% for all 3 (most all top tier are 85%) .. meaning they all perform exceptionally well. I think it's worth mentioning that everyone I know how has used several different top tier fans has found the sound profile of TY14x series fans to be one of the most pleasant if not the most pleasant to the ear.

If you can't find TY-147A or B fans, Phanteks PH-F140MP (square) / PH-F140HP_II (round) and be quiet! Silent Wings 3 140mm High Speed are also very pleasant to the ear. PH-F14MP / PH -f140HP_II are very nice and reasonably prices.


While Silent Wings 3 140mm High Speed so probably a little nicer sounding it is usually very expensive. Even though SW3 HP is 1500rpm fan, it's PWM% to rpm curve from 90-100%PWM is top 400rpm, it is very hard to set PWM% to rpm curve in this 400rpm range.


http://thermalbench.com/2016/10/31/be-quiet-silent-wings-3-140-mm-high-speed-fan/3/


----------



## lemniscate

Yeah I got my 8700K to 4.8GHz AVX at 1.30V (will try to find out if I can go lower once I have more spare time).

Would the supplied fan mount thingies be able to accommodate full-sized 140mm square fans?


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> Yeah I got my 8700K to 4.8GHz AVX at 1.30V (will try to find out if I can go lower once I have more spare time).
> 
> Would the supplied fan mount thingies be able to accommodate full-sized 140mm square fans?


Which cooler are you referring to?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lady Fitzgerald*
> 
> Which cooler are you referring to?


We were discussing Cryorig R1 Universal so I assume that is it.


----------



## lemniscate

Yes I am using R1 universal. I don’t have a 140mm square fan around right now but the brackets don’t seem to fit fans bigger than 25mm thick 120mm mount hole fans.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> Yes I am using R1 universal. I don't have a 140mm square fan around right now but the brackets don't seem to fit fans bigger than 25mm thick 120mm mount hole fans.


True, fan clips fit 105mm hole spacing, standard on 120mm fans. TY-147A is 26mm thick and it fits no problem. Phanteks PH-F140HP_II should fit


----------



## Dikonou

So guys I'm trying to choose the right set of fans for my Phanteks Enthoo Pro Black window ( Full Tower ).

It comes with a PH-F140SP as an exhaust fan and a PH-F200SP as an intake fan....

Would it be of any use to install two PH-F140MP at the top as an exhaust as well........... and replace the front PH-F200SP with two 140mm fans? and if so ... which 140mm fans should I use as intake fans? ( how about PH-F140XP? )

Or should I use one PH-F140MP as exhaust at the top, one PH-F140MP at the bottom as intake ...... and two 140mm ( again which type? ) at the front as intake?

Setup is i7 8700k, ASRock Taichi, Noctua NH-D15S, EVGA FTW2...No SSDs .....only M.2 samsung
I have already removed the HDD cages.


----------



## Dikonou

Decided to optimise air flow......


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> So guys I'm trying to choose the right set of fans for my Phanteks Enthoo Pro Black window ( Full Tower ).
> 
> It comes with a PH-F140SP as an exhaust fan and a PH-F200SP as an intake fan....
> 
> Would it be of any use to install two PH-F140MP at the top as an exhaust as well........... and replace the front PH-F200SP with two 140mm fans? and if so ... which 140mm fans should I use as intake fans? ( how about PH-F140XP? )
> 
> Or should I use one PH-F140MP as exhaust at the top, one PH-F140MP at the bottom as intake ...... and two 140mm ( again which type? ) at the front as intake?
> 
> Setup is i7 8700k, ASRock Taichi, Noctua NH-D15S, EVGA FTW2...No SSDs .....only M.2 samsung
> I have already removed the HDD cages.


I think you will find the 140mm fan in Enthoo Pro are the new PH-F140SP housing and motor with PH-F140MP impeller. What does their impeller look like?

If they have the MP impeller they are the new case fans .. and I know case specs say 'PH-F140 SP' but that is because Phanteks does not seem to think it's important to let us know what we are buying.









Assuming your motherboard has PWM fan headers I would use 2x front and 1x bottom PH-F140MP intakes, remove PSU cover and all PCIe back slot covers. Speed control bottom fan based on GPU temp and upper front fan based on CPU temp .. lower front on whichever one seems to need more cool airflow. Raising case up on higher feet or open center caster base will improve airflow to bottom intakes. This should give you good front to back airflow with bottom & lower front fans supplying cool air to GPU and front fans supplying cool air to CPU. End result sould be a cool and quiet system.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> Decided to optimise air flow......


That should eliminate most airflow issues, but dust might be a problem.


----------



## Dikonou




----------



## Dikonou

I intent to optimise air flow as I possibly can. Dust will be controlled if possible by checking for critical points after the dissasebly procedure.
Next thing is to check how many pwm points are on my taichi....otherwise the "Zen condition" will be lost...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*


That is new case fan that Phanteks does not sell as an accessory.









Amazon.com has PH-F140MP black / black for 11.85
https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-PH-F140MP_BBK_PWM-1600RPM-Blades-Radiator/dp/B016NHRIU8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1515848880&sr=8-2&keywords=ph-f140mp
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> I intent to optimise air flow as I possibly can. Dust will be controlled if possible by checking for critical points after the dissasebly procedure.


Using the MP fans you will have no problems with airflow through stock case filters.

Also there is a simple way to mod the two bottom filters into a single filter so it all slides in & out the front .. no need to move case to clean PSU filter.








http://www.overclock.net/t/1418637/official-case-phanteks-case-club-for-lovers-owners/10220_20#post_24095206


----------



## Dikonou

From what I read and see

No2 CPU optional fan
No4 CPU Fan
No3 - No11 Chassis fan connectors
No21 Chassis fan / water pump connector



Since I' m probably looking at a 5 fan setup.......( the 200mm at the top? exhaust? ) will I have to use the PWM hub of the Phanteks case?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> From what I read and see
> 
> No2 CPU optional fan
> No4 CPU Fan
> No3 - No11 Chassis fan connectors
> No21 Chassis fan / water pump connector
> 
> 
> 
> Since I' m probably looking at a 5 fan setup.......( the 200mm at the top? exhaust? ) will I have to use the PWM hub of the Phanteks case?


The 200mm is simply nothing but a noise maker. Why do you even want to use it .. and why are you wanting top exhaust? If you have you read 5th post in this thread you should realize why I'm not suggesting any top fans, and why you might want to block front half of top vent completely.

If 4th PCIe socket is x16 with same performance as top x16, I would put GPU in there. More space between GPU and CPU means less chance of GPU heated exhaust contaminating CPU cooler's cool intake airflow.


----------



## Dikonou

Guess will be using the 200mm as a frisbee?
Thank you very much for your time and answers!!!!!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> Guess will be using the 200mm as a frisbee?
> Thank you very much for your time and answers!!!!!


I even tried usign the 200mm fan in bedroom to circulate a little air in the summer .. even a cheap 140mm fan worked better .. and quieter too.

No problems. It's the reason for this thread .. to help people with case airflow and cooling.


----------



## Dikonou

Unfortunately 4th PCIE is 8x so only option the PCIE2.

I've already read a lot of your posts







......bit of data throttling issue here...... brain overheats.......









now let's go back to post five........................................


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> Unfortunately 4th PCIE is 8x so only option the PCIE2.
> 
> I've already read a lot of your posts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ......bit of data throttling issue here...... brain overheats.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now let's go back to post five........................................


Wait tell your my age .. brain overload becomes much more of a problem.

Airflow is a ficked witch .. so it's often hard to predict what airflow will do. Bottom line is to get coolest air possible to components .. and to do this we need to make sure components' heated air flows out of case without contaminating / heating the cool intake air.

GPU is the hardest thing to keep heated air separated from cool air .. next worst is downflow / pancake CPU coolers. A divider panel between CPU and GPU from front CPU fan to in front of GPU is sometimes the best way to keep heated air out of CPU supply.

GPU cool air supply sometimes need a duct / shroud from bottom / bottom & lower front intake into GPU fan shroud openings. But doing all of this can become quite a project and require OCD like dedication.








Guide to making ducts / dividers
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22919853

FYI, I recommended the Silent Wings 3 140mm High Speed because of how extreme the last 10% of their PWM to rpm, curve is.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/1060_20#post_26525119


----------



## Dikonou

Now I seem to have a crazy idea........crazy is the key word here.........
We have on the front of the case three plastic covers for opti drives...............
What if.............we cut the center of the plastic cover put-glued a mesh in all three of them and install a third 140mm fan up there....

Posted while I was typing........









I'm 40!!

And as i see it with 4 holes for the fan and one metal bracket that I have as a leftover from lightweighting the case it is duable!!!!!!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> Now I seem to have a crazy idea........crazy is the key word here.........
> We have on the front of the case three plastic covers for opti drives...............
> What if.............we cut the center of the plastic cover put-glued a mesh in all three of them and install a third 140mm fan up there....
> 
> Posted while I was typing........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm 40!!
> 
> And as i see it with 4 holes for the fan and one metal bracket that I have as a leftover from lightweighting the case it is duable!!!!!!


Not crazy at all. Or simply remove them and make a mesh grill to fit entire opening. Another option is to use DEMCIflex filter/s on the front instead of stock front meshs and 5.25 covers. I photoshopped the idea about 2 years ago, but my Luxe cooled just fine without PSU cover,and running 2x front with 1x bottom intakes, so I never ordered the filter.


----------



## Dikonou

For my case the iner diamensions for the front cover are 150mm x 420mm


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> For my case the iner diamensions for the front cover are 150mm x 420mm


If I remember correctly the filter size I use in those images is a production size DEMCiflex makes. Besides, loosing 10mm makes little difference compared to how much less resistance the DEMCiflex filter has than stock filter. Removing the stock front metal grill alone more than doubles airflow / cuts resistance in half, combined with adding a 3rd front fan in place of 3x 5.25" covers is half again as stock, so now we have twice the flow potential of stock .. and I found stock to work just fine.

If you decide to do something like this, I suggest making sure there is no leaks in the fan mounting panel and also definitely block at least the front half of top vent so all this nice cool air front fans are bringing into case has to move back around cooler, then on back and out of case. Oh!, and remove the stock filter .. you don't need it with the DEMCiflex on the front.


----------



## Dikonou

I' m also puzzling with the idea of buying this
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/lian-li-pt-af12-1b-fan-mesh-guard-120mm-ca-367-ll.html
and create an opening of same diameter based on the three front case caps........somewhere in the middle while adding a filter to the back of the mesh............not so sure though...

And yes I can see why we have to make the fresh air go- with the closed up half- in the case!!!!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> I' m also puzzling with the idea of buying this
> https://www.overclockers.co.uk/lian-li-pt-af12-1b-fan-mesh-guard-120mm-ca-367-ll.html
> and create an opening of same diameter based on the three front case caps........somewhere in the middle while adding a filter to the back of the mesh............not so sure though...
> 
> And yes I can see why we have to make the fresh air go- with the closed up half- in the case!!!!


Didn't realize you were in UK.
You can buy perferated mesh on ebay like this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR8.TRC2.A0.H0.Xperforated+sheet.TRS0&_nkw=perforated+sheet&_sacat=0

It's not hard to cut with tin snips, then use hot glue gun to glue it behind hole in case.
Just keep in mind this kind of perforated mesh is quite restrictive. More details in this link
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22657923


----------



## Dikonou

Not in the UK .... just wanted to show the item I had in mind.

Boy you just seem to have an answer for every question.........







even for mesh!!!!!!!!








The 2.0mm is the same diameter as the OEM front mesh I have on the case from Phanteks.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> Not in the UK .... just wanted to show the item I had in mind.
> 
> Boy you just seem to have an answer for every question.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> even for mesh!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2.0mm is the same diameter as the OEM front mesh I have on the case from Phanteks.


In USA MNPCtech is place to get case mod materials. Owner is Bill Owen and he's a good guy. All kinds of custom materials, custom grills, etc.
https://mnpctech.com/?subcats=Y&pcode_from_q=Y&pshort=Y&pfull=Y&pname=Y&pkeywords=Y&search_performed=Y&q=mesh&dispatch=products.search

He also has The Mod Zoo forum for serious modders, serious liquid cooling and custom builds.
https://themodzoo.com/


----------



## Dikonou

So I'm guessin if I install the third 140MP at the front....the one at the bottom would not be really necessary?
That and ...I'm also running out of mobo fan ''checkpoints''


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm guessin if I install the third 140MP at the front....the one at the bottom would not be really necessary?
> That and ...I'm also running out of mobo fan ''checkpoints''


In my Luxe 2x front and 1x bottom with PSU shroud removed and no PCIe back slot covers the air into cooler is only a maximum of 2-3c warmer when both are working 100% with about 34-35dB noise level 1 meter away.
Case is on a 30mm caster base similar to this one under Primo, and no it his is not my Primo but I made the caster base under it. The Enthoo Luxe and Pro base has frame strip lengthwise in center with 'T' at back, 'X' in middle and 'Y' at front .. looks like a stick figure with no head.









More details in below link
http://phanteks.com/forum/showthread.php?510-Tips-amp-Guides

Here is better guide to modding bottom filters to be one big filter


----------



## Dikonou

1/3 of the way!!!!



Only problem? I might have... is that the uper mounting of the fan will have to be made with a metal plate.... with bolts on the chasis...
Could that bring any vibration or unwanted noise from the fan?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> 1/3 of the way!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Only problem? I might have... is that the uper mounting of the fan will have to be made with a metal plate.... with bolts on the chasis...
> Could that bring any vibration or unwanted noise from the fan?


What about using a couple of zip-ties to secure top of fan? Or use some foam to wedge the fan in tight?


----------



## Gilles3000

Installed the Macho Rev.B yesterday, was a damn tight squeeze.

You can't even see the motherboard from above










The fan only just squeezed in between the RAM


And the side panel only just closed without touching


The mount was great, super easy install, but boy is this thing a pain in the ass to work around when its in the case, wish I wasn't as stubborn and had just unmounted it again to do the cables, would've saved me a bunch of time and sore fingers.

Will see how it does when I get a 24-pin extension on Tuesday, that 24-pin on the SF600 is ridiculously short and stiff.


----------



## Dikonou

Well that's a nice mobo on your cooler!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dikonou

The upper base for the third fan is made and all that's left if the front case cover....


----------



## doyll

@Gilles3000 That's as tight a fit as I've ever seen .. and looks really good too!








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> The upper base for the third fan is made and all that's left if the front case cover....


Nice straight through airflow. Make sure there are no leaks in fan mounting panel to let air back in front. With fans pushing air into case it doesn't even the smallest holes will leak air back in front of fans. Same wiht top area from front fan back to cooler. Any leaking of air in that area is wasting cool airflow that cooler can keep heated air coming off of GPU from moving up and into CPU cooler airflow. If GPU heated air does contaminate CPU's cool airflow from that front fan, you could make a simple divider to fit between GPU and CPU to front of case and from motherboard to side of case so you have a 'duct' from front fan to CPU cooler .. then you are sure the cooler is getting cool air.


----------



## Dikonou

I will keep that in mind and will post when I'm reaching reassembling for approval!!!!!

For the gap on the top i might go with a foam sticker.....same on the sides of the fan....now for the holes for the 200 mm fan on the chasis ...thermal tape?


----------



## Melcar

I also toyed with the idea of adding a third front fan inside the 5.25" cage. A 14cm fan can be fitted snuggly with thin strips of foam (if you keep the cage). I have some extra brackets for mounting rads that I used and they also work. To properly fit a 14cm fan there and set it all the way to the front I had to get rid of the front i/o panel on my Pro. I originally got some of those mesh 5.25" covers, but they don't fit the stock front panel. Was thinking latter replacing the entire front 5.25" covers with a mesh panel, but did not go through with it. As Doyll pointed out, removing the PSU shroud and any other obstruction will offer more than enough airflow potential (the PSU shroud alone shaved 5c from my GPU load temps).


----------



## Dumbledood

Hi, could I get a little help figuring out which fans and how many to use in my case?

I'm building in a Meshify C. I haven't read your entire post because that requires a herculean amount of effort, but I have read a bit of it and understand slightly less than that. Amazing post though!

Here's a link to the full PCPartpicker list: https://pcpartpicker.com/user/Dumbledood/saved/tPdccf

I've got Ram clearance issues so front-mounting my AIO is necessary. That also improves CPU temps a ton because the GPU isn't overloading the AIO's radiator with more heat than it's designed for. I also want to use it as intake, and have the fans pulling air in through the front panel and pushing air through the radiator.

I live in a place that gets very hot during the summer, and quiet/cool operation is the goal, it may just be a fact of life that it'll get a little louder then but I still want to work on optimizing it.

I know I want to create slightly positive pressure inside my case. The Meshify-C has a metal screen, and then a dust filter that the front-mounted fans will need to pull through, then they have to push through the radiator. So either these fans need some real beefcake-level static pressure ratings, or I want to add some bottom-mounted fans in. But the 1080 will already be a significant barrier to a direct bottom-to-top airflow, and if I upgrade to a FTW3 Ti at some point that's going to increase. So I'm not sure if that is a good idea, but am open to it. I was thinking of using some fans that hit the sweet spot of particularly high static pressure:noise:CFM in the front, and then maybe just some quieter fans on the bottom to bring up positive pressure and increase airflow, but will this lead to unwanted airblow?

Just some more info, the Meshify-C allows for up to 3 x 120 mm in the front, or 2 x 140 mm. Also 1 x 120 mm on the bottom, and 1 x 120 mm in the back. Either 2 x 120 mm or 140 mm on top. There's just honeycomb hexagonal large diameter grill in the back, the same grill is also on the top and bottom, but the bottom has a bug-screen like screen, and the top has an even finer screen.

The Meshify-C comes with: *2x Dynamic X2 GP 12's*. CFM (Max): 52.3, Max pressure: .88 (H20), Noise: dB: 19.4: http://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/casefans/dynamic-series/dynamic-x2-gp-12

The *H100i V2 fans* (can't find their name, reading it off of the box): CFM: 70.69, Pressure: 4.65 mm H20, Noise: 37.7 dB

Here are the replacement fans I'm considering right now:

*Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 120 mm* (PWM High speed):
CFM: 73.33 Pressure: 3.37 Noise Level: 28.6: https://www.bequiet.com/en/casefans/724

*Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 120 mm (PWM)*:
CFM: 50.5 Pressure: 1.79 Noise Level: 16.4: https://www.bequiet.com/en/casefans/722

*Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 140 mm (PWM High Speed)*:
CFM: 77.57 Pressure: 2.16 Noise Level: 28.1: https://www.bequiet.com/en/casefans/723

*Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 140 mm*:
CFM: 59.5 Pressure: 1.08 Noise Level: 15.5: https://www.bequiet.com/en/casefans/717

*Noctua NF F12 PWM 120 mm*:
CFM: 54 Pressure: 2.61 Noise Level: 22.4 dB: https://noctua.at/en/nf-f12-pwm/specification

*COOLER MASTER 120mm Silencio FP 120 PWM*:
CFM: 44 Pressure: 1.69 Noise Level: 14 dB: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA6DH6PR6226

*Enermax Twisterpressure 120 mm*:
CFM: 79 Pressure: 3.85 Noise Level: 25 dB http://www.enermax.co.uk/fans/twisterpressure/

*Corsair ML120 PRO 120mm PWM*:
CFM: 75 Pressure: 4.2 Noise Level: 37 dB: http://www.corsair.com/en-us/ml120-pro-120mm-premium-magnetic-levitation-fan

Spec. sheet was a little confusing with the Enermax; Looks like they just split the curve into bottom, middle and top load, but they look really good when running at max load.

So if I were to hazard a guess, I'd want to go with 3 x 120 mm in the front or 2 x 140 mm (Looks like I didn't compare enough 140 mm's here), and if I go with 2 x 140 mm in the top and back as exhaust then I'd probably still be at a negative pressure, and should add in an extra intake on the bottom (Like a quiet 120 or 140 mm)? Any recommendations on specific fans to use would be cool too.

Thank you very much! Just thought I could really use a second opinion on this stuff, because it's a little overwhelming at the moment. Again, fantastic guide!









Edit: Realized I neglected to mention that with both the 1080 and 1080 ti, and a front-mounted AIO, having a push/pull double layer of fans on the front is impossible in the Meshify-C.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dumbledood*
> 
> Hi, could I get a little help figuring out which fans and how many to use in my case?
> 
> I'm building in a Meshify C. I haven't read your entire post because that requires a herculean amount of effort, but I have read a bit of it and understand slightly less than that. Amazing post though!
> 
> Here's a link to the full PCPartpicker list: https://pcpartpicker.com/user/Dumbledood/saved/tPdccf
> 
> I've got Ram clearance issues so front-mounting my AIO is necessary. That also improves CPU temps a ton because the GPU isn't overloading the AIO's radiator with more heat than it's designed for. I also want to use it as intake, and have the fans pulling air in through the front panel and pushing air through the radiator.
> 
> I live in a place that gets very hot during the summer, and quiet/cool operation is the goal, it may just be a fact of life that it'll get a little louder then but I still want to work on optimizing it.
> 
> I know I want to create slightly positive pressure inside my case. The Meshify-C has a metal screen, and then a dust filter that the front-mounted fans will need to pull through, then they have to push through the radiator. So either these fans need some real beefcake-level static pressure ratings, or I want to add some bottom-mounted fans in. But the 1080 will already be a significant barrier to a direct bottom-to-top airflow, and if I upgrade to a FTW3 Ti at some point that's going to increase. So I'm not sure if that is a good idea, but am open to it. I was thinking of using some fans that hit the sweet spot of particularly high static pressure:noise:CFM in the front, and then maybe just some quieter fans on the bottom to bring up positive pressure and increase airflow, but will this lead to unwanted airblow?
> 
> Just some more info, the Meshify-C allows for up to 3 x 120 mm in the front, or 2 x 140 mm. Also 1 x 120 mm on the bottom, and 1 x 120 mm in the back. Either 2 x 120 mm or 140 mm on top. There's just honeycomb hexagonal large diameter grill in the back, the same grill is also on the top and bottom, but the bottom has a bug-screen like screen, and the top has an even finer screen.
> 
> The Meshify-C comes with: *2x Dynamic X2 GP 12's*. CFM (Max): 52.3, Max pressure: .88 (H20), Noise: dB: 19.4: http://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/casefans/dynamic-series/dynamic-x2-gp-12
> 
> The *H100i V2 fans* (can't find their name, reading it off of the box): CFM: 70.69, Pressure: 4.65 mm H20, Noise: 37.7 dB
> 
> Here are the replacement fans I'm considering right now:
> 
> *Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 120 mm* (PWM High speed):
> CFM: 73.33 Pressure: 3.37 Noise Level: 28.6: https://www.bequiet.com/en/casefans/724
> 
> *Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 120 mm (PWM)*:
> CFM: 50.5 Pressure: 1.79 Noise Level: 16.4: https://www.bequiet.com/en/casefans/722
> 
> *Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 140 mm (PWM High Speed)*:
> CFM: 77.57 Pressure: 2.16 Noise Level: 28.1: https://www.bequiet.com/en/casefans/723
> 
> *Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 140 mm*:
> CFM: 59.5 Pressure: 1.08 Noise Level: 15.5: https://www.bequiet.com/en/casefans/717
> 
> *Noctua NF F12 PWM 120 mm*:
> CFM: 54 Pressure: 2.61 Noise Level: 22.4 dB: https://noctua.at/en/nf-f12-pwm/specification
> 
> *COOLER MASTER 120mm Silencio FP 120 PWM*:
> CFM: 44 Pressure: 1.69 Noise Level: 14 dB: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA6DH6PR6226
> 
> *Enermax Twisterpressure 120 mm*:
> CFM: 79 Pressure: 3.85 Noise Level: 25 dB http://www.enermax.co.uk/fans/twisterpressure/
> 
> *Corsair ML120 PRO 120mm PWM*:
> CFM: 75 Pressure: 4.2 Noise Level: 37 dB: http://www.corsair.com/en-us/ml120-pro-120mm-premium-magnetic-levitation-fan
> 
> Spec. sheet was a little confusing with the Enermax; Looks like they just split the curve into bottom, middle and top load, but they look really good when running at max load.
> 
> So if I were to hazard a guess, I'd want to go with 3 x 120 mm in the front or 2 x 140 mm (Looks like I didn't compare enough 140 mm's here), and if I go with 2 x 140 mm in the top and back as exhaust then I'd probably still be at a negative pressure, and should add in an extra intake on the bottom (Like a quiet 120 or 140 mm)? Any recommendations on specific fans to use would be cool too.
> 
> Thank you very much! Just thought I could really use a second opinion on this stuff, because it's a little overwhelming at the moment. Again, fantastic guide!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Realized I neglected to mention that with both the 1080 and 1080 ti, and a front-mounted AIO, having a push/pull double layer of fans on the front is impossible in the Meshify-C.


Well, first thing is I would not even consider using H100 .. or any other CLC. There are much better coolers that will fit in Meshfly's 172mm CPU clearance that will fit on Asus ROG STRIX Z370-E GAMING with like 90m center CPU to near side of PCIe available for $110.
Getting tall RAM is a common problem. I have a hard time sympathising with people with tall RAM because with a little research there is usually shorter RAM at similar price .. often even lower priced.
Sure, using CLC as intake will give lower CPU temps, but will increase the operating temp of everything else because everything esle will be using radiators heated air.









While Silverstone's bottom ot top flow cases are very good, bottom to top flwo is no better than good front to back flow.

Yes, we want the intake fans to be supplying slightly more air then exhaust fans are pulling. Most of my new builds don't even have exhaust fans because with good intake fans the cases flow plenty of air to keep everything supplied with cool air.

Stock Mesfly Dynamic X2 GT are almost worthless, but before we start discussing fans let's figure out the CLC issue versus good air cooler .. or maybe a AIO that is not a CLC.


----------



## Dumbledood

Just want to say this is my first build, and I'm learning all these concepts for the first time. But I'm picking up what you're putting down.

I originally had planned on using an Cryorig R1 Ultimate as my cooler, but after discovering that it wouldn't work with my RGB RAM (I can feel your disappointment), went with the H100i V2 because from what I understood at the time it would cool my CPU as effectively as the R1. I didn't know it would negatively impact case temperature, noise levels, performance. I (wrongfully) assumed it would be a win-win (lower; equivalent temps, keep ram, less noise from the little fans + pump compared with the goliath fans of: Cryorig R1 Ultimate, Be Quiet Dark Rock Pro 3, Noctua NH-D15). Of course now I'm learning this is not the case (no pun intended), except for getting to keep the ram...

The good news is that I got the H100i and my RGB ram while on sale, so at least the opportunity cost of the items (besides ram being super inflated right now) was actually pretty negligible.

I've at least been keeping track of return dates in case anything is DoA. I could return the RAM and AIO for a Newegg gift card, but going through getting the RMA, shipping it, restocking fees, and waiting for the refund might screw with my building window so I'd like to avoid it. I've been saving up for months. And by the way, I did look around for shorter ram, and you're right, it wasn't hard to find. I sympathize with not sympathizing with the ultra-lazy.

So basically I'm going to be going to the dark side for this build.







I humbly apologize for asking for your help in gimping my system thus! But I could still use it...







!!!














(Please)

But also, if you don't mind, I'm also still interested in how a well thought out airflow set up would work with a tower air cooler like one of the ones I mentioned, along with the exhaust fans not being needed due to natural pressure differentials (I'm guessing). I think for my next build, or possibly when I can afford it, I'll try designing a super efficient all air cooling system. Would be fun!

I'm stuck with my ram, and therefore an AIO (open to upgrading to a better one or one that isn't a CLC, was reading into the pros of that in the link below). If it's not a CLC it's by definition a custom liquid-cooling apparatus, right? So that would exclude any other pre-built systems like the NZXT x62, for instance?

I'm thinking I may end up building it as is, with your help, then possibly sell my AIO on /r/hardwareswap or something and do an upgrade when it's closer to summertime and temperatures really begin to matter. This way I'd recuperate some of the investment, but also be able to actually experience what I've red about in terms of efficiency, temperatures, noise to some extent.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1590547/why-you-should-probably-not-buy-a-clc-cooler


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dumbledood*
> 
> Just want to say this is my first build, and I'm learning all these concepts for the first time. But I'm picking up what you're putting down.
> 
> I originally had planned on using an Cryorig R1 Ultimate as my cooler, but after discovering that it wouldn't work with my RGB RAM (I can feel your disappointment), went with the H100i V2 because from what I understood at the time it would cool my CPU as effectively as the R1. I didn't know it would negatively impact case temperature, noise levels, performance. I (wrongfully) assumed it would be a win-win (lower; equivalent temps, keep ram, less noise from the little fans + pump compared with the goliath fans of: Cryorig R1 Ultimate, Be Quiet Dark Rock Pro 3, Noctua NH-D15). Of course now I'm learning this is not the case (no pun intended), except for getting to keep the ram...
> 
> The good news is that I got the H100i and my RGB ram while on sale, so at least the opportunity cost of the items (besides ram being super inflated right now) was actually pretty negligible.
> 
> I've at least been keeping track of return dates in case anything is DoA. I could return the RAM and AIO for a Newegg gift card, but going through getting the RMA, shipping it, restocking fees, and waiting for the refund might screw with my building window so I'd like to avoid it. I've been saving up for months. And by the way, I did look around for shorter ram, and you're right, it wasn't hard to find. I sympathize with not sympathizing with the ultra-lazy.
> 
> So basically I'm going to be going to the dark side for this build.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I humbly apologize for asking for your help in gimping my system thus! But I could still use it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Please)
> 
> But also, if you don't mind, I'm also still interested in how a well thought out airflow set up would work with a tower air cooler like one of the ones I mentioned, along with the exhaust fans not being needed due to natural pressure differentials (I'm guessing). I think for my next build, or possibly when I can afford it, I'll try designing a super efficient all air cooling system. Would be fun!
> 
> I'm stuck with my ram, and therefore an AIO (open to upgrading to a better one or one that isn't a CLC, was reading into the pros of that in the link below). If it's not a CLC it's by definition a custom liquid-cooling apparatus, right? So that would exclude any other pre-built systems like the NZXT x62, for instance?
> 
> I'm thinking I may end up building it as is, with your help, then possibly sell my AIO on /r/hardwareswap or something and do an upgrade when it's closer to summertime and temperatures really begin to matter. This way I'd recuperate some of the investment, but also be able to actually experience what I've red about in terms of efficiency, temperatures, noise to some extent.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1590547/why-you-should-probably-not-buy-a-clc-cooler


Don't confuse all AIOs with CLCs. AIOs are All in One liquid cooling that at present time include 2 kinds of pre-build and filled liquid coolers; AIOs that are CLCs and AIO that are not CLCs. CLCs are assembled is ways that meke them near impossible to repair with no way of topping off coolant. Almost all CLCs are made by 2 companies; Asetek (who owns the USA patent rights to LCLC and CLC concept of a pump mounted on waterblock) and IDCooling. There are 2 basic low cost pump designs that are basically the same flowing about 40-60 liter per hour coolant through low cost aluminum radiators that require high airflow to cool well. By comparison the pumps in AIOs flow significantly more coolant, use copper radiators, threaded fittings, fill port and are much better made. Swiftech H series pumps flow up to 660 liter per hour and Alphacool OEM AIO pumps flow 72-100 liter per hour. Alphacool OEM are their own Eibear, Fractal Design Kelvin and be quiet! Slent Loop.

As a comparison the D5 pump (arguable the most popular custom loop pump) flows up to 1500 liter per hour.

In all honesty there have has been little to no improvement in the most commonly sold CLCs . They depend on different looking pump covers, fancy fans, and other bling to promote new models. People jumped on the CLC wagon because they were able to have 'water cooling' without really understanding that the only thing CLCs and real water cooling have in common is 'water'. tongue.gif Many who still push the CLC hype do so with no understanding of how much different and better real water cooling is. Many think airflow ratings are key to how well a fan performs when the reality is fan pressure rating is more important than airflow rating ..but that's another story.

A good air cooler and case fans cost less than a wonky CLC, will cool better, will be way more dependable, will be quieter, and the only thing that might go bad in 5-8 years is the fans and they can be replaced without braking the bank.

Short version; Get a good case, some good case fans and an air cooler to "Live long and prosper."









This thread has lots of good information about air, CLC and AIO coolers.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1639571/cpu-cooling-in-2017-aio-vs-air-cooling/0_20

Cryorig R1 Universal will fit in your case with your RAM, as will Le Grand Machoi, TRUE Spirit 140 Power, NH-U14S, NH-D15 and NH-D15S to name but a few top tier air coolers that will fit.

Meshify will need 2x 140mm front and 1x bottom high pressure rated intake intake fans, remove all PCIe back slot covers and remove PSU cover so cool air coming in bottom intake can flow to GPU. Control bottom and lower front fans based on GPU heat and upper front fan based on CPU heat. That should give good cool air supply to air cooled components


----------



## Dikonou

Here's one pic with the fan mounted.
Now I have to wait for the 3rd 140MP and all that's needed for the front case cover.


I'm thinking of assigning the top fan as the second CPU fan on the mobo ....... and I need to see if the other two can be related to the GPU in some way.....


----------



## Dumbledood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> A good air cooler and case fans cost less than a wonky CLC, will cool better, will be way more dependable, will be quieter, and the only thing that might go bad in 5-8 years is the fans and they can be replaced without braking the bank.
> 
> Short version; Get a good case, some good case fans and an air cooler to "Live long and prosper."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread has lots of good information about air, CLC and AIO coolers.
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1639571/cpu-cooling-in-2017-aio-vs-air-cooling/0_20
> 
> Cryorig R1 Universal will fit in your case with your RAM, as will Le Grand Machoi, TRUE Spirit 140 Power, NH-U14S, NH-D15 and NH-D15S to name but a few top tier air coolers that will fit.
> 
> Meshify will need 2x 140mm front and 1x bottom high pressure rated intake intake fans, remove all PCIe back slot covers and remove PSU cover so cool air coming in bottom intake can flow to GPU. Control bottom and lower front fans based on GPU heat and upper front fan based on CPU heat. That should give good cool air supply to air cooled components


Waow. I can't believe I missed that the R1 Universal allowed for me to use my ram! My jaw literally dropped when I read that... and remained there for 5 minutes.

RMA'd my CLC and am going to do exactly what you recommended. All air here we come! Thank you so much for all your generosity, and help!

One last question, in my first post I linked a bunch of the fans I was thinking of using, and you said I ought to use some high pressure rated fans in the front and bottom. Would the bottom fan need to be high pressure as well if I remove the bottom PSU shroud (it'll be about 1 inch of open air behind it and then the floor)? Any fan recommendations? Trying to strike the best noise to cooling ratio I can, and I absolutely can compare and crunch the numbers myself but your input would be cool.

And are the Enermax Twisterpressure fans as good as they look? For 120 mm they seem completely beastly compared to the 140 mm BQSW3's (high speed), which I am thinking I'll probably use.

Enermax Twisterpressure 120 mm:
CFM: 79 Pressure: 3.85 Noise Level: 25 dB http://www.enermax.co.uk/fans/twisterpressure/


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dumbledood*
> 
> Waow. I can't believe I missed that the R1 Universal allowed for me to use my ram! My jaw literally dropped when I read that... and remained there for 5 minutes.
> 
> RMA'd my CLC and am going to do exactly what you recommended. All air here we come! Thank you so much for all your generosity, and help!
> 
> One last question, in my first post I linked a bunch of the fans I was thinking of using, and you said I ought to use some high pressure rated fans in the front and bottom. Would the bottom fan need to be high pressure as well if I remove the bottom PSU shroud (it'll be about 1 inch of open air behind it and then the floor)? Any fan recommendations? Trying to strike the best noise to cooling ratio I can, and I absolutely can compare and crunch the numbers myself but your input would be cool.
> 
> And are the Enermax Twisterpressure fans as good as they look? For 120 mm they seem completely beastly compared to the 140 mm BQSW3's (high speed), which I am thinking I'll probably use.
> 
> Enermax Twisterpressure 120 mm:
> CFM: 79 Pressure: 3.85 Noise Level: 25 dB http://www.enermax.co.uk/fans/twisterpressure/


be quiet! Silent Wings 3 PWM high speed; either 4x 120mm will probably be best, but they are very expensive. I'm more versed on 140mm, so maybe @ciarlatano will suggest a good 120mm alternative .. maybe PH-F120MP. I'm using PH-F140MP and like them a lot.

Silent Wings 3 120m PWM High-Speed .. $ 26 15 each
Dimensions 120mm
Fan speed @ 12V 2,200rpm
Air flow @ 12V 73.33 CFM
Air pressure @ 12V 3.37 mm H2O
Noise level @ 12V 28.6 dB(A)

Phanteks PH-F120MP .. $ 14 99 each and quite good.
Fan Dimensions 120 x 120 x 25mm
Speed (RPM) 500-1800 ± 250 rpm
Max Airflow 53.3 CFM
Acoustical Noise 25 dB(A)
Static Pressure 1.72 mm H2O


----------



## Dumbledood

Alright, yeah the BQSW3's are pretty pricey. Not sure if I'll go with them or find something else that'll deliver on the same level.

So, if I remove the PSU shroud, I'd have to put the bottom fan near the front of the case, right? If the bottom front fan is blowing air across the GPU, wouldn't a fan directly below it just redirect the cooling air coming in through the front up and away from the GPU?

Like I said this is my first time building and originally I was picturing a fan mounted where the PSU goes (at the back), which would blow air on the far end of the GPU, where it was getting the least amount of love from the front, just redirecting up to the exhausts at the top + back.

But I also thought a top mounted AIO radiator would improve temps because "heat rises," which turned out to be false.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dumbledood*
> 
> Alright, yeah the BQSW3's are pretty pricey. Not sure if I'll go with them or find something else that'll deliver on the same level.
> 
> So, if I remove the PSU shroud, I'd have to put the bottom fan near the front of the case, right? If the bottom front fan is blowing air across the GPU, wouldn't a fan directly below it just redirect the cooling air coming in through the front up and away from the GPU?
> 
> Like I said this is my first time building and originally I was picturing a fan mounted where the PSU goes (at the back), which would blow air on the far end of the GPU, where it was getting the least amount of love from the front, just redirecting up to the exhausts at the top + back.
> 
> But I also thought a top mounted AIO radiator would improve temps because "heat rises," which turned out to be false.


Bottom intake flow air up and lower front flow back with the effect of both flowing up at about 45 degree angle into GPU. With 4x 120mm fans we end up with upper 2 front supplying CPU cooler's 140mm fan and lower front & bottom supplying GPU cooler's 2x 90mm fans.

Top mounted radiator will work, but still need 4x 120mm intakes

I did not include the NF-F12 specs because most place they are rather expensive.
Noctua NF-F12 at $19.95
Speed 1500rpm
Airflow 54.9 cfm
Pressure 2.61 mm H2O
Noise level 22.5 dB(A)

Another good fan is Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm or 2150rpm, but they are also rather expensive at $21-23.00

Fractal Design Venturi HP-12 PWM is also good, but are about $18
Speed 1800rpm
Airflow 61.4 cfm
Pressure 2.3 mm H2O
Noise level 31.7 dB(A)


----------



## Dikonou

Couldn't stand the color of the Noctua fan so ...... ordered two NF-A15HS Chromax for the NH-D15S.....
Now I have to find the right front mesh.......







for cover


----------



## jonny27

Funny you mention mesh, I'm about to experiment a bit with my newly arrived F140-MP's.
Case is an FD Arc Midi R2, which save for removed hard drive cages and less restrictive pci-e covers (salvaged from a retiring Dell workstation at my workplace) is in stock condition, it was still using the 3 original Silent Series R2 fans, running a 2 front intake and rear exhaust layout, the exact spots the Phanteks' replaced. No other fans save for gpu and cpu cooler.
Now, the first run on the F140-MP's was disappointing - at a given rpm they sounded about the same volume as the Silent Series, but with an higher pitched tone. And going above the SS's range, it was loud - I'm talking 1100rpm was already loud and annoying - needless to say, it was a step back, and it worried me because of how praised they are - did I get counterfeit ones maybe?
Then, after a few experiments, I removed the front foam filter to try and get a feel of how much air they were pulling, and it all fell together - the fans were whisper quiet with the filter removed. This wasn't an issue with the Silent Series, removing the filter didn't do much to their sound signature (and speaking of which, it now moved from same loudness at same rpms, to the 140MP's at 1000rpm matching the SS's at ~700), and an interesting find - a filter will also change a specific sound signature of a fan, it's not limited to raising a set dBa on every fan every time.
Honestly I can't narrow it down if it's due to propeller design, or more simply the fact that it's probably just moving more air. In any case, a set conclusion I reached is that the F140-MP's do not like staying behind foam filters. I do want to figure this one out though, so I already have some mesh filters ordered to see if it changes anything, both on their own, and jerry-rigged inside the Arc Midi's filter cage.


----------



## Dikonou

I am thinking something like this
http://www.cmstore.eu/spare-parts/elite-334-5-25-front-mesh/

is has similar side clipping as my 5.25 front cover.....so i think with some tweaking it will do the job....


----------



## Dikonou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jonny27*
> 
> Funny you mention mesh, I'm about to experiment a bit with my newly arrived F140-MP's.
> Case is an FD Arc Midi R2, which save for removed hard drive cages and less restrictive pci-e covers (salvaged from a retiring Dell workstation at my workplace) is in stock condition, it was still using the 3 original Silent Series R2 fans, running a 2 front intake and rear exhaust layout, the exact spots the Phanteks' replaced. No other fans save for gpu and cpu cooler.
> Now, the first run on the F140-MP's was disappointing - at a given rpm they sounded about the same volume as the Silent Series, but with an higher pitched tone. And going above the SS's range, it was loud - I'm talking 1100rpm was already loud and annoying - needless to say, it was a step back, and it worried me because of how praised they are - did I get counterfeit ones maybe?
> Then, after a few experiments, I removed the front foam filter to try and get a feel of how much air they were pulling, and it all fell together - the fans were whisper quiet with the filter removed. This wasn't an issue with the Silent Series, removing the filter didn't do much to their sound signature (and speaking of which, it now moved from same loudness at same rpms, to the 140MP's at 1000rpm matching the SS's at ~700), and an interesting find - a filter will also change a specific sound signature of a fan, it's not limited to raising a set dBa on every fan every time.
> Honestly I can't narrow it down if it's due to propeller design, or more simply the fact that it's probably just moving more air. In any case, a set conclusion I reached is that the F140-MP's do not like staying behind foam filters. I do want to figure this one out though, so I already have some mesh filters ordered to see if it changes anything, both on their own, and jerry-rigged inside the Arc Midi's filter cage.


I believe that the question to ask here is not only the noise but .... the cooling issue....how well did they perform regardless the noise?


----------



## jonny27

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> I believe that the question to ask here is not only the noise but .... the cooling issue....how well did they perform regardless the noise?


Bear in mind that I lack specific test equipment. In any case, both at a given rpm, honestly I expected the Phanteks to do better. Cpu load testing didn't really change between old and new fans (non-k 4790 cooled by a Cryorig M9i w/ 2xArctic F9's at 800-900rpm - had them around from an earlier gtx760 cooling experiment, threw them on the M9i for shiggles, ended up impressed by how quiet they performed), kept at exact 50c (again no test equipment, but given its temperature didn't slowly creep up - only from 47 to 50 - I assume case temperature was kept nice and low, around 18c ambient yesterday). Also using the oh-so-rigorous hand-in-front-of-the-fan testing







airflow didn't feel that different. Needless to say, I have no way of testing air speed.
In any case, we have to take into account that:
- F140-MP's have an higher max rpm (~1600 vs. ~1000)
- The noise/rpm ratio is better for the Phanteks. This means you can have them run faster for the same noise

But now the latest issue had me thinking. I choose the MP's precisely because of the foam filter. And if I did this only to in the end adapt the case to a less restrictive filter, I start to wonder if I shouldn't have gone for a fan less focused on pressure in the first place.


----------



## Dikonou

You had the foam in front of the fan on the intake side? How close was it?

And if you want my completelly inexperienced opinion.....the fact that the Silent Series R2 did not change the noise parameters with and without foam ....I personaly think that it means they had no power to make the acoustic change you had with the 140MPs....

easy thing to do ( but lacks accuracy ) is..... put a source of smoke in front of the fans with and without the foam filter and observe the smoke tray.......


----------



## jonny27

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> You had the foam in front of the fan on the intake side? How close was it?
> 
> And if you want my completelly inexperienced opinion.....the fact that the Silent Series R2 did not change the noise parameters with and without foam ....I personaly think that it means they had no power to make the acoustic change you had with the 140MPs....
> 
> easy thing to do ( but lacks accuracy ) is..... put a source of smoke in front of the fans with and without the foam filter and observe the smoke tray.......


It has a small gap between the fan blades and the filter. 1cm at most is my guesstimate.
Yes, that is my most probable theory as well, the increased air speed alone causing all the turbulence at the filter, but I'm still not setting aside the possibility of the blade design only suitable for restrictions after the fan, and not before. But for that I'm thinking I can just invert the fans for testing purposes and see how it goes.


----------



## Dikonou

Well they are desinged i think so that they can *push* air better ( after the blades ) not suck air before them................Again ...... only beginners approach to a scientific explanation...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jonny27*
> 
> Bear in mind that I lack specific test equipment. In any case, both at a given rpm, honestly I expected the Phanteks to do better. Cpu load testing didn't really change between old and new fans (non-k 4790 cooled by a Cryorig M9i w/ 2xArctic F9's at 800-900rpm - had them around from an earlier gtx760 cooling experiment, threw them on the M9i for shiggles, ended up impressed by how quiet they performed), kept at exact 50c (again no test equipment, but given its temperature didn't slowly creep up - only from 47 to 50 - I assume case temperature was kept nice and low, around 18c ambient yesterday). Also using the oh-so-rigorous hand-in-front-of-the-fan testing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> airflow didn't feel that different. Needless to say, I have no way of testing air speed.
> In any case, we have to take into account that:
> - F140-MP's have an higher max rpm (~1600 vs. ~1000)
> - The noise/rpm ratio is better for the Phanteks. This means you can have them run faster for the same noise
> 
> But now the latest issue had me thinking. I choose the MP's precisely because of the foam filter. And if I did this only to in the end adapt the case to a less restrictive filter, I start to wonder if I shouldn't have gone for a fan less focused on pressure in the first place.


One possible reason you found PH-F140MP to not be giving improvements expected is a CPU cooler using 90mm fan is flowing approximately 25 cfm at mid-speed, and only 40cfm at full speed .. and if your GPU is not making much heat then it's 2x 90mm fans are moving approx. 35-55cfm at most, so 2x 140mm fans that can move up to about 130cfm are not going to make a huge difference is airflow temperatures because pf components low airflow needs are only about 80cfm


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dikonou*
> 
> Well they are desinged i think so that they can *push* air better ( after the blades ) not suck air before them................Again ...... only beginners approach to a scientific explanation...


Few fans know the difference between push and pull. They simply have a pressure differential between intake side and exhaust side. Most of the difference I've seen is the result of spacing between front / back of housing and impeller .. there is less spacing on front side, so if mounted against grill less space can make more noise.

I though Pro front filter was mounted on inside of front cover, so several mm away from fan?


----------



## jonny27

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> One possible reason you found PH-F140MP to not be giving improvements expected is a CPU cooler using 90mm fan is flowing approximately 25 cfm at mid-speed, and only 40cfm at full speed .. and if your GPU is not making much heat then it's 2x 90mm fans are moving approx. 35-55cfm at most, so 2x 140mm fans that can move up to about 130cfm are not going to make a huge difference is airflow temperatures because pf components low airflow needs are only about 80cfm


Well, thinking back, laws of physics are still in effect. If we think about it, we can move between shallower, larger blades for increased speed and pressure created, or steep ones for generating raw air volume movement at lower speeds. If we run the fans at an even speed, the shallower blades' one will suffer. It's probable the Phanteks is truly a better design, I'm just not using it to its full potential.
Back on track, yes, I'll see if I try running everything on full blast, and check the results. Though honestly, I don't see a 970 making much of a dent







in any case, the main point of them was reducing noise, I'll have to try the mesh filter and report, though I can get ahead of it and test it with the front grille alone. Oh I am not going to enjoy the debris buildup


----------



## Dikonou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Few fans know the difference between push and pull. They simply have a pressure differential between intake side and exhaust side. Most of the difference I've seen is the result of spacing between front / back of housing and impeller .. there is less spacing on front side, so if mounted against grill less space can make more noise.
> 
> I though Pro front filter was mounted on inside of front cover, so several mm away from fan?


Inside filter 17mm from metal chasis and another 3-4mm offset for the fan inwards....about 20mm in total.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jonny27*
> 
> Well, thinking back, laws of physics are still in effect. If we think about it, we can move between shallower, larger blades for increased speed and pressure created, or steep ones for generating raw air volume movement at lower speeds. If we run the fans at an even speed, the shallower blades' one will suffer. It's probable the Phanteks is truly a better design, I'm just not using it to its full potential.
> Back on track, yes, I'll see if I try running everything on full blast, and check the results. Though honestly, I don't see a 970 making much of a dent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in any case, the main point of them was reducing noise, I'll have to try the mesh filter and report, though I can get ahead of it and test it with the front grille alone. Oh I am not going to enjoy the debris buildup


The area impellers fill / lack of space between impeller an housing and blade to blade also improve flow by not letting air leak toward intake / low pressure side of fan. Air leaking from pressure side to intake side of fan mounting frame, in this case front panel of case will also make a difference in case airflowing where we what it. .. also any holes in case between front and maybe bottom intake fans and where component coolers receive that airflow degrades overall airflow to components by letting it leak out before being used.

Even if not at full speed you many not be needing all the potential PHF140MP is capabe of. I run all my fans as slow as I can an keep things cool. Less airflow not only means less noise, but also less dust collecting on filters.









Even with all the science involved airflow, the fact the flow pattern changes with even a cable in it's path, so it can be almost impossible to predict what it will be doing.


----------



## jonny27

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> The area impellers fill / lack of space between impeller an housing and blade to blade also improve flow by not letting air leak toward intake / low pressure side of fan. Air leaking from pressure side to intake side of fan mounting frame, in this case front panel of case will also make a difference in case airflowing where we what it. .. also any holes in case between front and maybe bottom intake fans and where component coolers receive that airflow degrades overall airflow to components by letting it leak out before being used.
> 
> Even if not at full speed you many not be needing all the potential PHF140MP is capabe of. I run all my fans as slow as I can an keep things cool. Less airflow not only means less noise, but also less dust collecting on filters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even with all the science involved airflow, the fact the flow pattern changes with even a cable in it's path, so it can be almost impossible to predict what it will be doing.


True, there are so many variables regarding airflow (and pc cooling in general), one must keep an open mind about what can and can't improve, even after years of pc building you can still learn something. Even recently I started putting hard drives away from the airflow path, after learning they actually do work best with a bit of heat (due to the viscousness of the fluid bearings apparently, it seems 30-40c is the sweet spot for them).


----------



## jonny27

Ok, so that happened. Front grille opened (and doing it so many times, I'm going to snap the tabs someday







), foam out, and test run with the grille alone. The end result was actually the worst of the 3, now add an high pitch blow to the air movement noise the filter was making. This is interesting to know, it seems the foam is actually doing some noise dampening, and it should be best to leave it in.
In any case, a more useful question for everyone is "how loud exactly is it?" Honestly, not much. It should be noted that I live in a very quiet area, where any and all noise is noticeable (and as you can see at the left, a quite warm country, so going with an airflow-restricted case is less than ideal), so anything you can hear will feel louder. Putting it in perspective, as it stands, an AiO cooler I have laying around (Raijintek Triton) needs to run the pump at 7V instead of 12V to not notice it over the fans, and a split AC unit running in the next room will drown it. So in short, anything that isn't complete silence shouldn't be a worry.

Anyway, I think a reasonable lesson for the day is "if you have a foam filter, leave it on kids"


----------



## Catsandbats

Hello,

I have decided to make my own pc case, I posted this on some subreddit, but no one sadly answered, so I hope you could clear some things up for me. Questions are in the provided picture.
I know very little about case design, but I am having lot of fun tinkering with it and hopefully the final thing will materilize sometime in near future.

If some design decisions seem odd, it may very well be just my lack of knowledge, or a decision I've made based on my priorities (provided in the rant below). I am looking for any suggestion.



*So, this is my phylosophy:*
- I don't want water cooling. I don't want several hhd or optical devices....

I want to build the case around my hardware.
- The case is simple. One GPU, one big air cooler for CPU and maximum airflow provided by two 200mm noctuas to cool both GPU and CPU while taking care of VRM cooling aswell.
I just want to go with "airflow first".

The thing is that pc cases are (obviously) designed with many sacrifices and compromises to fit pretty much every piece of hardware on the market and (I think) the airflow is a thing they tweak later to make it "good enough". Well I ain't havin' it.
I like to overclock and the idead of supreme airflow that keeps my components cool (even if it's overkill) is just so satisfying, but case manufacturers for obvious reasons don't favor airflow, becase it just doesn't sell as well as RGB or tempered glass.

Thank you very much


----------



## doyll

@Catsandbats
It will take some time to analyze everything, and to be honest I'm not sure the NF-A20 have high enough pressure rating to supply needed airflow thru flitler and grill .. nor am I sure their 86.4cfm rating is high enough to supply needed cool air for all components. CPU withNH-D15 using NF-A15 fans will flow as much as one NF-A20 will at full speed, and GPU under load will need approx the same amount of air. Maybe use 3x 140mm intakes instead? Would only need an additional 20mm in height and not as much width. The added height would increase area around GPU for moving it's heated exhaust air back and out of case. A divider between D15 and front of case would also help keep GPU heated exhaust from contaminating CPU and VRM cool air supply. I've fournd not using the motherboard I/O shield in back usually improves airflow around components around and behind CPU socket with cooler fans lowered as low as possible.

I hope you are planning to use normal height RAM .. like RAM with no fake heat spreaders?

Is there a definitive reason for using D15? Le Grand Macho RT is every bit as good and a little quieter.

PSU on bottom improves case stability with weight at bottom instead of top.

I like the idea of sloped panels. It should help reduce turbulence and give smoother airflow to and from components.

If I was building case from scratch the back would be mostly open around GPU to improve front to back flow in this area. We have CPU cooler lined up with rear exhaust vent, and GPU need similar vent to try and give it better front to back flow and less heated exhaust contamination.


----------



## Catsandbats

Hey doyll,

thank you very much.

I'll try to adress your points in order.

-*My choice to go with two 200mm case fans*
is that I would like to keep the case as small as possible without compromising airflow. Though, I am totally not opposed to 3x140 if it's just 2cm (even if more, screw it if it gives me better cooling). The flow, I am thinking only filters, no grill. Pretty much just equivalent of pantyhose over the fans.
I just went with it because I thought they will "fill" the case better if the whole front panel is occuped with fans, while this wouldn't be the case with 3x140mm. I was thinking that creating these kind of two wind tunnels (one for CPU one for GPU) is the best option. I have no idea though, I just went with the fact that I just like the look more, google searches "3x140 vs 2x200" didn't reveal 2x200 lacking behind and kinda just "gut feeling".
I also wanted to make the case short (from front to back). Like I said, I have no use for that space (SSD/pump/reservoir) and if it improves cooling further, awesome. The GPU and CPU would be then very close to those big 200mm getting blasted up close.
Also I went with Noctua, because there's not many 200mm fans and based on what I've read, those big 200mm are more prone to fail since the motors are being strained more so I figured Noctua should have it covered.

-By the *"divider"*
, did you mean one of these? (number 1 or2)


-*Ditching motherboard I/O*
is such a beatifully simple idea that I am not surprised I didn't think of it. However, I have my eye on new Gigabite Aorus (AM4) introduced on CES about a week ago and this one has "fixed" I/O on the motherboard (I think) and more importantly power button on it. That is another thing - I have for some reason never used any USB ports on any case I have owned and since I saw this motherboard I am enjoying the idea that I don't have to worry about power button, because I have totally no problem with starting the pc from I/O on the back.
We'll see how the motherboard turns out though, it may suck and I might want to go with different one. .....just wanted to mention that.

-When comes to *ram*
I'm gonna go with 3200Mhz CL14 (B-die). I don't care about the looks. I'll pick some based on the price and then read about it's performance and OC ability.

-*Noctua nh-d15s*
Well I chose this just because here in Czech republic there aren't that many to choose from (with little exaggeration). I can actually get the Le Grand Macho from one E-shop, but just based on what I've read, Noctua will take care of you for life if you've bought something from them and since I am still rocking Phenom II I have decided to go with this cooler and later let them send me AM4 bracket. I've heard about the Le Grand Macho, but if the only edge it has against Noctua is less noise I am not convinced. With my stock Phenom cooler I've got so used to such level of noise, that either cooler will be silent to me. Plus I have constantly headphones while I'm sitting at my PC.
I am not opposed to alternative, but Noctua having such good cooling performance while being (considered) quiet and taking their support into consideration I can't imagine being convinced otherwise. But hey, like I said, I'm not opposed to alternative.

- *The PSU location (bottom/top)*
When comes to stability I don't think I would utilize this "feature". All my cases always had PSU on top (plus optical drives and HDD's) and I have never though "hey, it wiggles". The question is again about cooling, that's why I went with two designs (top and bottom PSU) to see it and think about it.
I don't really care how it looks. The cooling performance will make me like it anyway.
The PSU with intake up (towards GPU while the PSU is mounted on the bottom) is something I am considering just because I don't have to care about bottom vent and case feet (and obviously making the case taller), but if the PSU will "leak" heat up into the GPU, then that's absolute no-go. I just don't know this, so this I would love to know.
Also I'm thinking if top PSU will help with cooling the VRM/CPU are by sucking the air away. Though top 140mm fan would probably reign supreme and I should just mount the PSU on bottom (with intake aswell) and suck up the fact the I'm gonna have to put the case on at least 2cm feet right?

- *The "open back" case*
is something I am definitely contemplating. It's not on the picture, because I'm **** with the 3D software and I kinda rushed it to ask the questions so I can move forward with the design. I may end up just making some simple mounts (PSU, Exhaust fan, GPU) while leaving the whole back open and perhaps fashion some doodad to cover it while the PC is off.

I am sorry for this being so long, but I am way too excited about this to simplify it.

Thank you very much


----------



## doyll

@Catsandbats
3x 140mm fans will move about 75-80cfm each, so yes, more airflow then 2 x 200mm fans. 2x 200 = 400 and 3 x 140 = 420, and doesn't need to be 200mm wide, but for cooler clearance 200 overall with about 168-170mm cpu clearance and 20-30mm cable management behind motherboard ends up being about 200mm. With good intake fans no exhaust fans are even needed.









Front to back only needs to be about 40mm longer then GPU .. enough for fan to fit in without blockng airflow too much.

Motherboard start button is an easy DIY kind of thing. Just a monentary switch mounted where convenient to reach.









NH-D15 is good cooler. Just make sure the 75mm center CPU toward PCIe sockets isn't a problem . LGM RT is 70, D15S is 67.5mm, but only comes with one A15 1500rpm fan and Noctua does not sell the A15 1500, they only sell it in 1200rpm version unless you pay big money for the new chromax A15. If you want high performance fan the TY-143 is best because it will idle down to 550-600rpm and is as quiet as A15 up to 1500rpm .. and you have another 1000rpm if needed to keep things cool .. and can stand the added noise when running fast.

PSU placement isn't a big deal. Maybe up top with top intake to PSU would be best cooling. Modern PSU fans don't run much if the have a decent source of cool air.

No problem with long posts. I like talking with people how understand the basics of good airflow and how much it helps things. Not a lot of people seem to care.


----------



## Catsandbats

Hey doyll,

thank you very much. I've written quite big letter, but "it's being held for review, since I'm new here", so hopefully it will arrive here, because if not, I am so not looking forward to write it again.

Anyway, regarding the fans, I don't really care, I'm not opposed to 3x140. It just "felt" (no numbers), that it will "fill" the case better since those two 200mm occupy the whole front while those 140mm will not "saturate" the volume of the sase as much. Like you said, because of the CPU cooler, the case will be 200mm wide anyway.
It might then make "ducting" more tricky, on the other hand the middle fan could provide better cooling by blowing right into GPU heatsink.

I'm just thinking if the difference is so small, how much will the performance of the smaller fans suffer if I change the direction of the air they're pushing...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Catsandbats*
> 
> Hey doyll,
> 
> thank you very much. I've written quite big letter, but "it's being held for review, since I'm new here", so hopefully it will arrive here, because if not, I am so not looking forward to write it again.
> 
> Anyway, regarding the fans, I don't really care, I'm not opposed to 3x140. It just "felt" (no numbers), that it will "fill" the case better since those two 200mm occupy the whole front while those 140mm will not "saturate" the volume of the sase as much. Like you said, because of the CPU cooler, the case will be 200mm wide anyway.
> It might then make "ducting" more tricky, on the other hand the middle fan could provide better cooling by blowing right into GPU heatsink.
> 
> I'm just thinking if the difference is so small, how much will the performance of the smaller fans suffer if I change the direction of the air they're pushing...


I think I received the whole post .. if main last paragraph was about open back case. I think I answers some of what you were asking, but feel free to ask anything I missed.

A very course wire mesh with like 2mm wire size making 13mm openings is low resistance. An old case to cannibalize the back panel is handy for PSU and PCIe frame with verticals between removed.


----------



## Catsandbats

You did read it!, great.
I have things to think about now and I surely would like to ask more, but I'll try to compile it into one post so I don't spam it here.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Catsandbats*
> 
> You did read it!, great.
> I have things to think about now and I surely would like to ask more, but I'll try to compile it into one post so I don't spam it here.


This thread is about cooling and how to get the most out of what we have. 1st post in index of topics I thing are important in their own areas. Clickon topic in 1st post and it that topic opens them. Most are guides and tutorials about different things. Some are reliant to what you are going to do, many are not.


----------



## Catsandbats

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> This thread is about cooling and how to get the most out of what we have. 1st post in index of topics I thing are important in their own areas. Clickon topic in 1st post and it that topic opens them. Most are guides and tutorials about different things. Some are reliant to what you are going to do, many are not.


I've read all the info you provided when you started this topic, that's why I decided to register and ask (you) directly. I'm gonna read it again at some point, because theres lot of it and I totally didn't absorb it all.
Anyway I couldn't help myself and jumped straight into redoing the case with the 3x140. I also brought those fans closer to the components and it looks sexier to me now (and hopefully functions better).
The case "B" is my favorite and I would like your thoughts.


Also, and I asked this before (but didn't understand the answer), If I mount PSU on the bottom with fan up (for example if the PSU fan in the case "B" was up), will it get enough air and will it (or not) "leak" hot air up into GPU?
I have EVGA Supernova G3 650, which is pretty much top range PSU, but still.

Thank you

*EDIT:* Could this work?


----------



## doyll

Catsandbats said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> This thread is about cooling and how to get the most out of what we have. 1st post in index of topics I thing are important in their own areas. Clickon topic in 1st post and it that topic opens them. Most are guides and tutorials about different things. Some are reliant to what you are going to do, many are not.
> 
> 
> I've read all the info you provided when you started this topic, that's why I decided to register and ask (you) directly. I'm gonna read it again at some point, because theres lot of it and I totally didn't absorb it all.
> Anyway I couldn't help myself and jumped straight into redoing the case with the 3x140. I also brought those fans closer to the components and it looks sexier to me now (and hopefully functions better).
> The case "B" is my favorite and I would like your thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, and I asked this before (but didn't understand the answer), If I mount PSU on the bottom with fan up (for example if the PSU fan in the case "B" was up), will it get enough air and will it (or not) "leak" hot air up into GPU?
> I have EVGA Supernova G3 650, which is pretty much top range PSU, but still.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> *EDIT:* Could this work?


With this new forum almost all images are gone.  Hopefully they will be put pack in forum changes.

If PSU is less then about 5cm away from GPU their fans will be competing against each other for airflow


----------



## Catsandbats

doyll said:


> With this new forum almost all images are gone.  Hopefully they will be put pack in forum changes.


Yep, hopefully they will, your guide got obliterated.

Anyway, I kept messing with the case. There was lot things I wanted to ask, but I can't remember much

1) 
How "bad" (or how noticeable) it is, that side of the GPU is sadly directly behind fan motor housing? I can imagine that there's not much air coming from the middle of the fan (from this close) and I don't think I will be able to do anything about it, but I would still like to know.

2)
Notice the PSU shround and it's intake. Do you think it might work? I don't think it should leak hot air into the GPU, nor do I think it should take air from the GPU. The question is whether or no will the PSU get enough air.

3)
You mentioned the "divider" between CPU heatsink and GPU. What do you think about my solution and would you tweak it in any way?

4)
I left 20mm of space above CPU heatsink to create area of low resistance where rising hot air gets "flushed" away by the top fan. I am also thinking that this solution is even better (if the case ceiling is smooth flat surface) than butting a fan on top. Will this work?

Btw I have decided to go with totally open back (except GPU and PSU mount).

5)
On the picture, there's picture (on the top) that shows side plate funneling all the fans under the motherboard.
This is just because it was easy to do. But do I benefit from blowing air under the board? My thinking is that it could help with VRM cooling, but I have no idea.
Or should I raise the plate so it's in level with the motherboard itself rather than the plate the motherboard is mounted on?

There are other things, but I don't wanna bother too much.

Thank you very much


----------



## HiBillyMaysHere

So I removed my unused pci brackets and found zero difference in cooling, temps and fan speed (gpu fans) stayed the same. Does this mean anything in particular?

The case airflow is set front to back in a meshify c, 2×140 up front 1×120 exhaust, noctua nh-d15, 1080 strix (axial gpu cooler).

Any ideas?


----------



## doyll

Catsandbats said:


> Yep, hopefully they will, your guide got obliterated.
> 
> Anyway, I kept messing with the case. There was lot things I wanted to ask, but I can't remember much
> 
> 1)
> How "bad" (or how noticeable) it is, that side of the GPU is sadly directly behind fan motor housing? I can imagine that there's not much air coming from the middle of the fan (from this close) and I don't think I will be able to do anything about it, but I would still like to know.
> 
> 2)
> Notice the PSU shround and it's intake. Do you think it might work? I don't think it should leak hot air into the GPU, nor do I think it should take air from the GPU. The question is whether or no will the PSU get enough air.
> 
> 3)
> You mentioned the "divider" between CPU heatsink and GPU. What do you think about my solution and would you tweak it in any way?
> 
> 4)
> I left 20mm of space above CPU heatsink to create area of low resistance where rising hot air gets "flushed" away by the top fan. I am also thinking that this solution is even better (if the case ceiling is smooth flat surface) than butting a fan on top. Will this work?
> 
> Btw I have decided to go with totally open back (except GPU and PSU mount).
> 
> 5)
> On the picture, there's picture (on the top) that shows side plate funneling all the fans under the motherboard.
> This is just because it was easy to do. But do I benefit from blowing air under the board? My thinking is that it could help with VRM cooling, but I have no idea.
> Or should I raise the plate so it's in level with the motherboard itself rather than the plate the motherboard is mounted on?
> 
> There are other things, but I don't wanna bother too much.
> 
> Thank you very much


1) Don't understand " side of GPU is directly behind fan motor housing."

2) Maybe I don't understand, but PSU intake is on square side of PSU, not end. 

3) I usually put divider between CPU and GPU from front to middle of CPU cooler and against CPU cooler. GPU is expelling heated air away from motherboard and some toward front of case and motherboard on respective sides of GPU .. so having some space between GPU and CPU for airflow move some heated air back as well as cools back of GPU PCB. If you really want to get into ducts / shrouds, I would help to duct cool airflow from intake fan/s to GPU fan openings in GPU shroud. This makes sure GPU is getting cool airflow. 

4) There is no "hot air rising" in forced airflow cooling. None, not even a hint of any as long as fans are turning. 

5) Having a little airflow on back of motherboard is good. 

No bother. I'm waiting for OCN to get all the images, etc. that didn't automatically move when they changed hosts back up so I can tell you to look at specific things that are not there now. 




HiBillyMaysHere said:


> So I removed my unused pci brackets and found zero difference in cooling, temps and fan speed (gpu fans) stayed the same. Does this mean anything in particular?
> 
> The case airflow is set front to back in a meshify c, 2×140 up front 1×120 exhaust, noctua nh-d15, 1080 strix (axial gpu cooler).
> 
> Any ideas?


Not really. What is air temp going into GPU fans? What is GPU temp? What is room temp? What speed are fans running? I'll assume the fan speed did not change? What are you using to load system to determine how well cooling is working?


----------



## jonny27

doyll said:


> 1) Don't understand " side of GPU is directly behind fan motor housing."


I did. He means the front middle fan's motor exactly as the same height as the graphics card. I don't see much of an issue honestly, pushing air while not ducted will always create some degree of spread. Also judging by the render, the graphics card looks like an MSI TwinFrozr with the cooling fins laid across the card's lenght instead of parallel (390x maybe?). I'd reckon blowing air on it wouldn't be nearly as effective as if it had a cleaner flow path anyway, so if anything, this is the best case scenario.


----------



## Zimbler

Hello, Doyll and all others! 

Doyll, I saw your recommendations for a Define R5 case not too long ago at this thread about finding an alternative to a Noctua NH-D15 and I was wondering if your recommendations might have changed for a Define R6 because of either the case or new technologies. As a slight vanity note, I have a slight bias to a consistent color scheme and ability to see the RAM, but I would forgo such preferences if it would cause a noticeable loss in performance, especially considering that the case has a harder time with front-back air flow all things considered. 

My Motherboard will be a Gigabyte - Z370 AORUS Gaming 7 and I'll likely try and OC my 8700k to 4.7-5.0 if feasible. 

For the CPU cooler, I was looking at a Thermalright Le Grand Macho RT versus the Noctua NH-D15 SSO2 D-Type.

For case fans I was going to keep them the same but saw that you recommended the Phantek PH-F140MP and was wondering if you still recommend the same or if the new R6 fans are up to par or better high static fans have been released. 


Here is my current build if relevant! 

Thanks for your time.


----------



## doyll

Zimbler said:


> Hello, Doyll and all others!
> 
> Doyll, I saw your recommendations for a Define R5 case not too long ago at this thread about finding an alternative to a Noctua NH-D15 and I was wondering if your recommendations might have changed for a Define R6 because of either the case or new technologies. As a slight vanity note, I have a slight bias to a consistent color scheme and ability to see the RAM, but I would forgo such preferences if it would cause a noticeable loss in performance, especially considering that the case has a harder time with front-back air flow all things considered.
> 
> My Motherboard will be a Gigabyte - Z370 AORUS Gaming 7 and I'll likely try and OC my 8700k to 4.7-5.0 if feasible.
> 
> For the CPU cooler, I was looking at a Thermalright Le Grand Macho RT versus the Noctua NH-D15 SSO2 D-Type.
> 
> For case fans I was going to keep them the same but saw that you recommended the Phantek PH-F140MP and was wondering if you still recommend the same or if the new R6 fans are up to par or better high static fans have been released.
> 
> 
> Here is my current build if relevant!
> 
> Thanks for your time.


Welcome to OCN. 
OCN just changed things a few days ago so much of what I've posted over the years in images is not showing yet. 
Define R6 has same fans as R5 so I would recommend changing them to better intake fans. R5 and R6 are very similar cases so what is good for one should be good for the other. 

I do not have a Gigabyte - Z370 AORUS Gaming 7 but it looks like Le Grand Macho should fit with no problems.


----------



## Zimbler

doyll said:


> Welcome to OCN.
> OCN just changed things a few days ago so much of what I've posted over the years in images is not showing yet.
> Define R6 has same fans as R5 so I would recommend changing them to better intake fans. R5 and R6 are very similar cases so what is good for one should be good for the other.
> 
> I do not have a Gigabyte - Z370 AORUS Gaming 7 but it looks like Le Grand Macho should fit with no problems.


Thanks a bunch for the welcome and your time, Doyll! And a shame on the images. I was able to see some of them which gave me some interesting insights. 

Take care! :specool:


----------



## doyll

Zimbler said:


> Thanks a bunch for the welcome and your time, Doyll! And a shame on the images. I was able to see some of them which gave me some interesting insights.
> 
> Take care! :specool:


Thanks! 
They are working to get all images back like it was before. Any other questions, suggestions and your thoughts when you get your build done please let us know. It is how we get all the knowedge in one place.


----------



## Lorentzen

Hello!

Thanks for such an informative and well-written thread.
Looks like this is the place to ask for information about proper case cooling so I hope some of you could help me with the following:

I recently upgraded my rig to a Coffee Lake setup and decide to throw it in a new case, the Fractal Design Define C.
While I know this may not have been the greatest choice for air flow I digged the compact size, looks and overall functionality of the case.
I think I got a decent 8700K running 4.8Ghz on 1.21 Volt with degrees below 80°C after several hours of prime95, Realbench etc..
However I would like to push it a bit further and this is where airflow kicks in as I think I could shave off some degrees by ditching the stock fans.

I have been looking at replacing the front stock fan with two NB-eLoop B14-PS and the rear exhaust fan with a NB-eLoop B12-PS.
Whether these fans are well suited against the dust filters and rather limited front intake I am not sure though and this is where I would like some guidance.
I have been building a sort of black/white theme and I would very much like the fans to match this theme.

I am currently running my old trusty Noctua NH-D14 as CPU cooler, but will replace this with a Cryorig R1 Universal/Ultimate to better match my theme.
I value both noise/performance and would like recommendations on fans that balance those parameters and how my fan placement should be in the Define C case.

Again thanks for a great thread and i hope some of you might be able to help me out


----------



## doyll

Lorentzen said:


> Hello!
> 
> Thanks for such an informative and well-written thread.
> Looks like this is the place to ask for information about proper case cooling so I hope some of you could help me with the following:
> 
> I recently upgraded my rig to a Coffee Lake setup and decide to throw it in a new case, the Fractal Design Define C.
> While I know this may not have been the greatest choice for air flow I digged the compact size, looks and overall functionality of the case.
> I think I got a decent 8700K running 4.8Ghz on 1.21 Volt with degrees below 80°C after several hours of prime95, Realbench etc..
> However I would like to push it a bit further and this is where airflow kicks in as I think I could shave off some degrees by ditching the stock fans.
> 
> I have been looking at replacing the front stock fan with two NB-eLoop B14-PS and the rear exhaust fan with a NB-eLoop B12-PS.
> Whether these fans are well suited against the dust filters and rather limited front intake I am not sure though and this is where I would like some guidance.
> I have been building a sort of black/white theme and I would very much like the fans to match this theme.
> 
> I am currently running my old trusty Noctua NH-D14 as CPU cooler, but will replace this with a Cryorig R1 Universal/Ultimate to better match my theme.
> I value both noise/performance and would like recommendations on fans that balance those parameters and how my fan placement should be in the Define C case.
> 
> Again thanks for a great thread and i hope some of you might be able to help me out


Thanks, but it's hardly well written, and much of the information is from other sources. 

Are you monitoring case airflow air temperature into D14? This is the best way to know if more airflow will help or not. 

B14-PS are good, not sure if they are best performance value. All depends on what prices are in your area.

Have you removed all PCIe back slot covers? This helps airflow around GPU a lot.

You won't get better cooling with R1. Maybe paint top of D14 and change fans to TY-147A or similar to match theme?


----------



## Lorentzen

doyll said:


> Thanks, but it's hardly well written, and much of the information is from other sources.
> 
> Are you monitoring case airflow air temperature into D14? This is the best way to know if more airflow will help or not.
> 
> B14-PS are good, not sure if they are best performance value. All depends on what prices are in your area.
> 
> Have you removed all PCIe back slot covers? This helps airflow around GPU a lot.
> 
> You won't get better cooling with R1. Maybe paint top of D14 and change fans to TY-147A or similar to match theme?


Okay well-written might be a stretch  but still very informative!
I must admit I am not monitoring the airflow temperature that goes into the D14.
However with only the two stock "Dynamic X2 GP12 120mm" as intake and outtake I would imagine some gains could be made with more and better fans?
What I have heard of the "Dynamic X2 GP12" was not exactly positive, I could very easily be wrong though.
At its stock placement as intake it is also aimed at the GPU and not the CPU cooler.

I have not removed PCIe back slot covers will do that after im done writing this post 
While the R1 would not get me better cooling it would perform similarly to the D14 right?

Prices in my area (Denmark) are quite similar but in general rather high around 20-25€ for 140mm PWM fans and around 15-20€ for 120mm PWM fans.
The biggest problem is limited supply, eg. the TY-147A that you mentioned is only available at two retailers but none of them has any in stock and no estimated time of arrival.

Manufactures like Noctua, Corsair, Fractal Design, Be Quiet, Arctic, Cooler Master are available at more retailers.
The NoiseBlockers are also quite hard to obtain but I found one retailer who had them in stock.
I have also heard good things about EK Vardar but these are not easily obtainable either.

Against the dust filters and hard plastic front of the Define C case I would imagine High Static Pressure fans would be best?
And im not sure if the NoiseBlockers are gonna cut it?

I have attached an image of the possible fan locations and sizes, I would be able to fill out all of except for the 120mm bottom one as I have my harddrive cage there which I am using.
What combination of fans and their locations do you think would fare best in this case?

Thanks for your quick reply, I know I am asking quite a few questions I hope it is allright!


----------



## Lorentzen

doyll said:


> Thanks, but it's hardly well written, and much of the information is from other sources.
> 
> Are you monitoring case airflow air temperature into D14? This is the best way to know if more airflow will help or not.
> 
> B14-PS are good, not sure if they are best performance value. All depends on what prices are in your area.
> 
> Have you removed all PCIe back slot covers? This helps airflow around GPU a lot.
> 
> You won't get better cooling with R1. Maybe paint top of D14 and change fans to TY-147A or similar to match theme?


Allright maybe well-written was a stretch  but it is indeed very informative!

I must admit I am not measuring the air temperature into D14, however I could only imagine that it is not sufficient because of the stock fans and their placement.
The stock fans in the Define C are "Dynamic X2 GP-12 120 mm" and the default location of the intake is aimed at the GPU more than the CPU cooler.
Also I have not heard the best of these fans by looking through this thread and other places online.

Yeah I have read good things about the B14-PS aswell however airflow in the Define C is restricted by a hard plastic front and a dust filter.
Allthough it does have quite wide ventilation mesh in the sides of the front I would imagine High Static Pressure fans would be best for intake?
And I dont know if the B14-PS/B12-PS are going to cut it?

Prices in my area (Denmark) are in general quite expensive most 140mm PWM fans goes for 20-25€ and 120mm PWM fans for 15-20€.
Even worse is availability eg. the TY-147A you mentioned are impossible to dig up, only two retailers have them and both are out of stuck with no expected delivery date.
The NoiseBlocker's are only available at one retailer aswell but they do at least have them in stock.
I have also read good things about the EK Vardar's but thoose are hard to dig up aswell.

I have not removed the PCIe covers will get around to it when I am done posting this 

Would I not get similar cooling with the R1 Ultimate/Universal?
Or would it be better to go with NH-D15S and mod it with Noctua's chromax line to better match my theme?

Do you have any recommendation on fan placements in the Define C?
I have linked a screenshot (https://imgur.com/sCz4sDR) to the possible fan locations and I will be able to fill all of them except the bottom 120mm as I am using the hard drive cage which sits there.

And last but not least price not taken into account which 120/140mm would you recommend for the intakes/exhaust? (I would prefer white fans but black ones would also do fine)

Wow that was quite a few questions, thanks for your help so far and I hope you are willing to continue helping me out


----------



## doyll

Lorentzen said:


> Allright maybe well-written was a stretch  but it is indeed very informative!
> 
> I must admit I am not measuring the air temperature into D14, however I could only imagine that it is not sufficient because of the stock fans and their placement.
> The stock fans in the Define C are "Dynamic X2 GP-12 120 mm" and the default location of the intake is aimed at the GPU more than the CPU cooler.
> Also I have not heard the best of these fans by looking through this thread and other places online.
> 
> Yeah I have read good things about the B14-PS aswell however airflow in the Define C is restricted by a hard plastic front and a dust filter.
> Allthough it does have quite wide ventilation mesh in the sides of the front I would imagine High Static Pressure fans would be best for intake?
> And I dont know if the B14-PS/B12-PS are going to cut it?
> 
> Prices in my area (Denmark) are in general quite expensive most 140mm PWM fans goes for 20-25€ and 120mm PWM fans for 15-20€.
> Even worse is availability eg. the TY-147A you mentioned are impossible to dig up, only two retailers have them and both are out of stuck with no expected delivery date.
> The NoiseBlocker's are only available at one retailer aswell but they do at least have them in stock.
> I have also read good things about the EK Vardar's but thoose are hard to dig up aswell.
> 
> I have not removed the PCIe covers will get around to it when I am done posting this
> 
> Would I not get similar cooling with the R1 Ultimate/Universal?
> Or would it be better to go with NH-D15S and mod it with Noctua's chromax line to better match my theme?
> 
> Do you have any recommendation on fan placements in the Define C?
> I have linked a screenshot (https://imgur.com/sCz4sDR) to the possible fan locations and I will be able to fill all of them except the bottom 120mm as I am using the hard drive cage which sits there.
> 
> And last but not least price not taken into account which 120/140mm would you recommend for the intakes/exhaust? (I would prefer white fans but black ones would also do fine)
> 
> Wow that was quite a few questions, thanks for your help so far and I hope you are willing to continue helping me out


Yes, the stock fans are rather worthless.

Without knowing the air temp going into cooler we have no accurate way of knowing if cooler is receiving room temperature air. 2nd and 5th posts in this thread explain how to setup a low-cost remote sensor thermometer.

Post links to a couple places you can get fans and I'll try to pick a few for you to choose from.

D14 cools about the same, but with better fans it cools a little better and quieter too. 

D15S is no better than D14 with same fan .. maybe not quite as good. Testing both with same fans showed D14 to be maybe 1/2c cooler .. not enough to rule out all other variables and say it is better, but definitely as good. If your D14 fits, why change coolers? Just change fan/s and maybe put a cover on top of each finpack similar to what Noctua is now selling for D15/D15S.

3x 120mm or 2x 140mm good front intakes will flow the same amount of air. 2x 140mm front and 1x 120mm bottom with case raised on taller feet so there is 40-50mm between bottom of case and what it sets on will supply more air than you can use. Using top exhaust fans is a waste of money and most likey would give higher CPU temps and noise levels. As I said above, give us a couple of links to places you can buy fans from and we can look at what is available.


----------



## 8051

Doyll,

Have you had any luck convincing Noctua to make a more powerful version of their NF-A20? If they'll listen to anyone it'll be you!


----------



## doyll

8051 said:


> Doyll,
> 
> Have you had any luck convincing Noctua to make a more powerful version of their NF-A20? If they'll listen to anyone it'll be you!


I wouldn't bother even trying to convince them. Reason is Silverstone has some very good 180-200mm fans and sell very few of them. I don't think there is a big enough market .. yet. But it seems more 180-200mm fans are being used, and if there is enough demand Noctua will develop and sell a more powerful version. :thumb:


----------



## 8051

doyll said:


> I wouldn't bother even trying to convince them. Reason is Silverstone has some very good 180-200mm fans and sell very few of them. I don't think there is a big enough market .. yet. But it seems more 180-200mm fans are being used, and if there is enough demand Noctua will develop and sell a more powerful version. :thumb:


I have two of the Silverstones and they're loud. I think Noctua could make a better 200mm than the Silverstone 180mm's. Maybe they could hire you as a consultant on the project!


----------



## specialedge

Are the NF-A20's not very good or what? I haven't seen one yet. I would have to consider myself a noctua fanboy B) but I thought they would probably kick some major ass.


----------



## doyll

8051 said:


> I have two of the Silverstones and they're loud. I think Noctua could make a better 200mm than the Silverstone 180mm's. Maybe they could hire you as a consultant on the project!


Much of the noise has to do with surface speed of air over impeller, and a 100mm radius that get fast even at 900-1000rpm. Speed it up even faster and it gets even louder.


----------



## 8051

specialedge said:


> Are the NF-A20's not very good or what? I haven't seen one yet. I would have to consider myself a noctua fanboy B) but I thought they would probably kick some major ass.


The NF-A20 only turns at 900 RPM. I'd like something that spins at 2000 RPM.


----------



## Brightmist

Changed my case from 400C to Dark Base 700, pretty happy with results.

Setup is:
3x 140mm Silent Wings 3 in front as intakes
D15 CPU cooler
Gigabyte RX Vega 64 OC with 2x Gentle Typhoons attached.
4x Thermalright TY-147Bs (1 bottom intake, 2 on D15, 1 back exhaust)

53C on GPU with only GTs running around 1125RPM.
Rest of the 140mm fans are around 750-950RPM.

Case has good noise isolation and airflow's really good with front panel, unused PCI-E covers and I/O shield removed.

Thanks for everyone here on OCN for their recommendations.


----------



## doyll

8051 said:


> The NF-A20 only turns at 900 RPM. I'd like something that spins at 2000 RPM.


2000rpm would be extremely loud. 
With 86.5 cfm, 1.09 mm H2O, 18.1dB(A) @ 800rpm, I would think 1200rpm would be about 110cfm, 1.6mm H2O and 28dB(A); and 1500rpm would be about 150cfm, 2.2mm H2O and 40dB(A).



Brightmist said:


> Changed my case from 400C to Dark Base 700, pretty happy with results.
> 
> Setup is:
> 3x 140mm Silent Wings 3 in front as intakes
> D15 CPU cooler
> Gigabyte RX Vega 64 OC with 2x Gentle Typhoons attached.
> 4x Thermalright TY-147Bs (1 bottom intake, 2 on D15, 1 back exhaust)
> 
> 53C on GPU with only GTs running around 1125RPM.
> Rest of the 140mm fans are around 750-950RPM.
> 
> Case has good noise isolation and airflow's really good with front panel, unused PCI-E covers and I/O shield removed.
> 
> Thanks for everyone here on OCN for their recommendations.


That good! :thumb:

What is it like with front panel on?


----------



## Brightmist

3-4C worse on GPU at more or less same rotational values. But front intake channels are making a slight turbulence noise, kind of a woosh with front panel on, that's a bit annoying tbh.


----------



## doyll

Brightmist said:


> 3-4C worse on GPU at more or less same rotational values. But front intake channels are making a slight turbulence noise, kind of a woosh with front panel on, that's a bit annoying tbh.


Bummer. :blushsmil
Sorry it isn't doing what we hoped it would, but airflow is a fickled witch that often does not do what we want it to. I usually do a quick check with a piece of old cardboard, or whatever as divider / duct, etc before making a nice one because what we think logically should work sometimes does not.


----------



## Ricwin

Can anyone recommend a good cooler for use on a Ryzen 5? I'm currently using the stock Wraith Spire but the fan is grinding.
I'm considering the BeQuiet BK008 Pure Rock Slim. Plus a pair of 140mm intake fans.

Previous setup was an overclocked FX 8320 with AIO, front mounted radiator with NF-F12 3000 Industrial PPC fans.


----------



## doyll

Ricwin said:


> Can anyone recommend a good cooler for use on a Ryzen 5? I'm currently using the stock Wraith Spire but the fan is grinding.
> I'm considering the BeQuiet BK008 Pure Rock Slim. Plus a pair of 140mm intake fans.
> 
> Previous setup was an overclocked FX 8320 with AIO, front mounted radiator with NF-F12 3000 Industrial PPC fans.


Sorry, but your question is not detailed enough. It's like me asking your what size and type of shoes should I get for warm weather use .. and I don't tell you what size my foot is or what I intend to use the shoes for. 

What is your case CPU clearance? 
What is your RAM height?
What is the distance from center CPU to near side of nearest PCIe socket you plan to use? 
What is your price range?
What websites do you buy from?​The above give me the needed information to suggest possible coolers available to you that meet your needs.


----------



## Ricwin

CPU clearance is 160mm
RAM is low profile
Highest PCIE slot is 4x and used by sound card. GPU is next slot down (Gigabyte AB350 Gaming3). Not much space between the sound card and CPU socket.
Budget isnt really an issue but I wont need anything extreme like a Dark Rock Pro3 or NH-D15
Typically purchase from Scan.co.uk and Amazon UK
CPU TDP is 65w, not planning to overclock, dont really want another AIO, I might go custom water loop with GPU included at a later date.


----------



## jonny27

Ricwin said:


> CPU clearance is 160mm
> RAM is low profile
> Highest PCIE slot is 4x and used by sound card. GPU is next slot down (Gigabyte AB350 Gaming3). Not much space between the sound card and CPU socket.
> Budget isnt really an issue but I wont need anything extreme like a Dark Rock Pro3 or NH-D15
> Typically purchase from Scan.co.uk and Amazon UK
> CPU TDP is 65w, not planning to overclock, dont really want another AIO, I might go custom water loop with GPU included at a later date.


Honestly, if you're not overclocking you really don't need much. Heck, I'm running a Cryorig M9i on a 4790, and the little thing goes to town - I can idle it at 700rpm, and only need 1100-1200rpm to keep it at 50-60°C while stress testing (depending on ambient temperature). 
Honestly in your case I'd try anything decent sporting 120mm fans (infinitely easier to find better/quieter fans than 92mm  ), which one exactly shouldn't be an issue, given you won't oc (eg. Cryorig H7, BQ Pure Rock, the good ol' 212 EVO, though I'm not a fan of its no-so-quiet fan - get it?  ), but that's only half of the story honestly. What case is it and what cooling do you already have? As doyll & co. have proven again and again, properly setup airflow goes a long way in cooling effectively and quietly.


----------



## 8051

doyll said:


> 2000rpm would be extremely loud.
> With 86.5 cfm, 1.09 mm H2O, 18.1dB(A) @ 800rpm, I would think 1200rpm would be about 110cfm, 1.6mm H2O and 28dB(A); and 1500rpm would be about 150cfm, 2.2mm H2O and 40dB(A).
> ?


If you could make a PWM model that would be great Doyll! Maybe have it max out at 2000 RPM? At one point I was looking at using electric radiator fans in my build, but they only have on/off capability and seem to run a bit too fast for my tastes.


----------



## Lorentzen

doyll said:


> Yes, the stock fans are rather worthless.
> 
> Without knowing the air temp going into cooler we have no accurate way of knowing if cooler is receiving room temperature air. 2nd and 5th posts in this thread explain how to setup a low-cost remote sensor thermometer.
> 
> Post links to a couple places you can get fans and I'll try to pick a few for you to choose from.
> 
> D14 cools about the same, but with better fans it cools a little better and quieter too.
> 
> D15S is no better than D14 with same fan .. maybe not quite as good. Testing both with same fans showed D14 to be maybe 1/2c cooler .. not enough to rule out all other variables and say it is better, but definitely as good. If your D14 fits, why change coolers? Just change fan/s and maybe put a cover on top of each finpack similar to what Noctua is now selling for D15/D15S.
> 
> 3x 120mm or 2x 140mm good front intakes will flow the same amount of air. 2x 140mm front and 1x 120mm bottom with case raised on taller feet so there is 40-50mm between bottom of case and what it sets on will supply more air than you can use. Using top exhaust fans is a waste of money and most likey would give higher CPU temps and noise levels. As I said above, give us a couple of links to places you can buy fans from and we can look at what is available.


Hi doyll! 
Thanks for your reply, I have actually looked at thoose posts but at the moment I do not have any thermometers.
I will go ahead and buy one for the purpose, but I would very much still like some recommendations on fans.

Hands down you have me convinced, if it aint broke don't fix it and my D14 seems to be as solid a contender as it was back when I bought it.
I will look into modding it instead maybe with your recommended fans and some of noctuas chromax line.

Okay so I will link 3 different retailers which seems to have the widest variety of fans.
Im sorry but none of them offers english language so I have tried to make it simpler by splitting them into 120mm fans and 140mm fans 
120mm fans:
https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1345/kabinet-k-248-ling?f=a57c6972-2f4e-402b-8caa-4f3cb58b0f25&p=1&sq=
https://www.proshop.dk/Kabinet-Koeler?f~kabinet-koeler_blaeser-diameter=120-mm&pre=0
https://www.coolerkit.dk/shop/120mm-254c1.html

140mm fans:
https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1345/kabinet-k-248-ling?f=ee7b1882-0bac-4135-b313-dbd74ac2c57a&p=1&sq=
https://www.proshop.dk/Kabinet-Koeler?f~kabinet-koeler_blaeser-diameter=140-mm&pre=0
https://www.coolerkit.dk/shop/140mm-256c1.html

I guess I would prefer 2x 140mm fans for front intake and 1x 120mm fan for exhaust if any of the retailers has sufficient fans for this setup.
Thanks for taking your time!


----------



## doyll

Ricwin said:


> CPU clearance is 160mm
> RAM is low profile
> Highest PCIE slot is 4x and used by sound card. GPU is next slot down (Gigabyte AB350 Gaming3). Not much space between the sound card and CPU socket.
> Budget isnt really an issue but I wont need anything extreme like a Dark Rock Pro3 or NH-D15
> Typically purchase from Scan.co.uk and Amazon UK
> CPU TDP is 65w, not planning to overclock, dont really want another AIO, I might go custom water loop with GPU included at a later date.


GA-AB350 Gaming 3 has about 73.7mm center CPU to near side of 4x PCIe socket so any cooler 70mm center CPU toward PCIe sockets will be fine. Macho Rev. B would be a good choice. I need to check some things I can't do right now. I'll try and give more details in the morning.

Edit: I like using bigger rather than smaller coolers because they keep CPU cool with very little noise.


----------



## jonny27

doyll said:


> GA-AB350 Gaming 3 has about 73.7mm center CPU to near side of 4x PCIe socket so any cooler 70mm center CPU toward PCIe sockets will be fine. Macho Rev. B would be a good choice. I need to check some things I can't do right now. I'll try and give more details in the morning.
> 
> Edit: I like using bigger rather than smaller coolers because they keep CPU cool with very little noise.


Judging by Ricwin's earlier posts, the case seems to be a NZXT S340. Isn't a Macho Rev.B cutting it way too close to comfort (1 to 2mm short)? I can't find a definitive answer whether it fits or not - someone I found says it -JUST- clears the side panel, and meanwhile some review claimed it doesn't fit outright.


----------



## doyll

jonny27 said:


> Judging by Ricwin's earlier posts, the case seems to be a NZXT S340. Isn't a Macho Rev.B cutting it way too close to comfort (1 to 2mm short)? I can't find a definitive answer whether it fits or not - someone I found says it -JUST- clears the side panel, and meanwhile some review claimed it doesn't fit outright.


In a word, 'No.'
When it comes to cooler clearance and 1 mm is a good as 1 meter.


----------



## jonny27

doyll said:


> In a word, 'No.'
> When it comes to cooler clearance and 1 mm is a good as 1 meter.


Yeah, I know, tolerances and all. Still, if it was me I wouldn't bet a purchase on a 1mm margin, especially when the cpu in question is an AMD. (Doesn't the top of the IHS sit a bit higher on them than on mainstream Intels? If I remember it right, last I saw I think it was 8-9mm height from the MB for AMD cpu's, and 4.5mm for 115x Intel, though I'm unaware on how AM4 has set up things. I'll hunt for socket guides and see what I can find.)

Edit: got both 1150 and AM3 guides in front of me. Intel states the total package height as 7.781 ± 0.335 mm (way off from my initial idea ). AMD on the other hand uses 2D's of both CPU and socket, they give 4.00 ± 0.20 mm for the socket height, and CPU ranging 4.12 to 4.86mm (excluding cpu pins). So each height ranges are ~7.45-8.11mm for Intel cpu's, and ~7.92-9.06mm for AMD.


----------



## doyll

jonny27 said:


> Yeah, I know, tolerances and all. Still, if it was me I wouldn't bet a purchase on a 1mm margin, especially when the cpu in question is an AMD. (Doesn't the top of the IHS sit a bit higher on them than on mainstream Intels? If I remember it right, last I saw I think it was 8-9mm height from the MB for AMD cpu's, and 4.5mm for 115x Intel, though I'm unaware on how AM4 has set up things. I'll hunt for socket guides and see what I can find.)
> 
> Edit: got both 1150 and AM3 guides in front of me. Intel states the total package height as 7.781 ± 0.335 mm (way off from my initial idea ). AMD on the other hand uses 2D's of both CPU and socket, they give 4.00 ± 0.20 mm for the socket height, and CPU ranging 4.12 to 4.86mm (excluding cpu pins). So each height ranges are ~7.45-8.11mm for Intel cpu's, and ~7.92-9.06mm for AMD.


I'm going to be blunt, I honestly don't care if you think it will fit or not.
I don't tell someone a cooler will fit if it will not. I've been giving advice for many years and so far have not given anyone bad advice. If this was your build and/or your thread you could pick my advice, but this is not your thread, it's mine .. and one that have given literally hundreds of suggestions to people I have never told someone a cooler would fit to find it did not. So unless you have some proof about what you say, quite talking like you know what you do not. I'm not trying to offend you, but you are offending me by questioning my advice about something you don't know as much as I do about. 

I've found the distance from case motherboard mounting plate to top of motherboard is 7.8-8mm, and the distance from top of motherboard to top of CPU is also 7.8-8mm. I have never seen one that took up more than the 16mm total. Here is link to all figuring out how tall a cooler will fit.
http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...g-airflow-cooler-fan-data-3.html#post23232751

I've build a lot of systems over the years (literally hundreds) and have never seen a case give a CPU clearance specification that was not at least as big as it said. In fact I have build several with coolers that were 1 or 2 mm taller then case CPU clearance spec and got them to fit.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

doyll said:


> ...I've been giving advice for many years and so far have not given anyone bad advice...


Actually, you have. It's been rare but it has happened, such as when you insisted that no ASUS MOBOs have true PWM chassis fan headers (most don't but some do) or that the Phonomic Hex 2.0 hybrid TEC cooler couldn't cool adequately when someone else posting in the thread, who actually had one, insisted it would (you couldn't even fully grasp the theory on how it works). You probably know more by far about air cooling than anyone else on these forums but you don't know everything.


----------



## jonny27

doyll said:


> I'm going to be blunt, I honestly don't care if you think it will fit or not.
> I don't tell someone a cooler will fit if it will not. I've been giving advice for many years and so far have not given anyone bad advice. If this was your build and/or your thread you could pick my advice, but this is not your thread, it's mine .. and one that have given literally hundreds of suggestions to people I have never told someone a cooler would fit to find it did not. So unless you have some proof about what you say, quite talking like you know what you do not. I'm not trying to offend you, but you are offending me by questioning my advice about something you don't know as much as I do about.
> 
> I've found the distance from case motherboard mounting plate to top of motherboard is 7.8-8mm, and the distance from top of motherboard to top of CPU is also 7.8-8mm. I have never seen one that took up more than the 16mm total. Here is link to all figuring out how tall a cooler will fit.
> http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...g-airflow-cooler-fan-data-3.html#post23232751
> 
> I've build a lot of systems over the years (literally hundreds) and have never seen a case give a CPU clearance specification that was not at least as big as it said. In fact I have build several with coolers that were 1 or 2 mm taller then case CPU clearance spec and got them to fit.


Relax, I'm not questioning, nor intended to offend anyone. I said I wouldn't buy a cooler with announced clearances this close to case specs for my build when I'd be unsure about it, that's it.


----------



## doyll

Lady Fitzgerald said:


> Actually, you have. It's been rare but it has happened, such as when you insisted that no ASUS MOBOs have true PWM chassis fan headers (most don't but some do) or that the Phonomic Hex 2.0 hybrid TEC cooler couldn't cool adequately when someone else posting in the thread, who actually had one, insisted it would (you couldn't even fully grasp the theory on how it works). You probably know more by far about air cooling than anyone else on these forums but you don't know everything.


Wow! I take issue with someone critiquing my recommendation of a cooler 2mm shorter than case CPU clearance specification in my own thread and you go off like a banshee! Are to stalking me now? Or just having a bad day? That issue with Asus saying their 4-pin fan headers were PWM when they were not is a well documented fact .. and was years ago. As for Phonomic Hex 2.0 hybrid, I said that using a Peltier module did not greatly increase overall temps of CPU because in my opinion it's small cooler size was the limitation. You don't have to agree with my opinion because you have lots of experience on which to disagree and can use whatever cooler you want. 



jonny27 said:


> Relax, I'm not questioning, nor intended to offend anyone. I said I wouldn't buy a cooler with announced clearances this close to case specs for my build when I'd be unsure about it, that's it.


You can have more clearance if you want to in your own builds, but the facts are it's not needed.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

doyll said:


> Wow! I take issue with someone critiquing my recommendation of a cooler 2mm shorter than case CPU clearance specification in my own thread and you go off like a banshee! Are to stalking me now? Or just having a bad day? That issue with Asus saying their 4-pin fan headers were PWM when they were not is a well documented fact .. and was years ago. As for Phonomic Hex 2.0 hybrid, I said that using a Peltier module did not greatly increase overall temps of CPU because in my opinion it's small cooler size was the limitation. You don't have to agree with my opinion because you have lots of experience on which to disagree and can use whatever cooler you want...


You aren't paying attention. I said that you said ALL ASUS MOBOs had 4-pin headers that were not PWM. The fact is, while many (probably most) did, there were many of them that did have true PWM, a fact you continually refuted, even when I pointed out that my P9X79WS did have true PWM. Most of the ASUS X99 workstation boards also have true PWM on their 4 pin headers (something actual users have verified).

You are still missing the point about the Phonomics cooler. You just couldn't understand how the Peltier module worked and, apparently still don't (and I'm not going to waste my time trying again since, apparently, your mind is closed to it) and insisted it couldn't cool adequately when someone who actually had one said it worked very well on more than one MOBO. The only reason I returned mine is it was actually larger than the dimensions given and would interfere with my RAM in the orientation I wanted to use it. 

The overall point is you claimed you NEVER gave bad advice and I pointed out that you have. Never say never; it will come back and bite you where you sit.


----------



## doyll

Lady Fitzgerald said:


> You aren't paying attention. I said that you said ALL ASUS MOBOs had 4-pin headers that were not PWM. The fact is, while many (probably most) did, there were many of them that did have true PWM, a fact you continually refuted, even when I pointed out that my P9X79WS did have true PWM. Most of the ASUS X99 workstation boards also have true PWM on their 4 pin headers (something actual users have verified).
> 
> You are still missing the point about the Phonomics cooler. You just couldn't understand how the Peltier module worked and, apparently still don't (and I'm not going to waste my time trying again since, apparently, your mind is closed to it) and insisted it couldn't cool adequately when someone who actually had one said it worked very well on more than one MOBO. The only reason I returned mine is it was actually larger than the dimensions given and would interfere with my RAM in the orientation I wanted to use it.
> 
> The overall point is you claimed you NEVER gave bad advice and I pointed out that you have. Never say never; it will come back and bite you where you sit.


I know what you are claiming, and I do not believe you. Proof is key here, so supply a link to what you claim I said or remove your accusations. 

You using or not using Phonomic cooler is immaterial. We had a disagreement about the Phonomic cooler's ability versus cost .. and that is exactly what it was, we did not agree. Anandtech tested it and at 160 watts it is 2.1c cooler than Evo 212 .. Phonomic is 125x112x95mm costing about $140 and Evo 212 is 159x120x80mm for $25. To me 2c lower temps from similar size cooler costing 5 times as much makes it illogical to me .. and as I remember that was what I kept pointing out.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

doyll said:


> I know what you are claiming, and I do not believe you. Proof is key here, so supply a link to what you claim I said or remove your accusations.
> 
> You using or not using Phonomic cooler is immaterial. We had a disagreement about the Phonomic cooler's ability versus cost .. and that is exactly what it was, we did not agree. Anandtech tested it and at 160 watts it is 2.1c cooler than Evo 212 .. Phonomic is 125x112x95mm costing about $140 and Evo 212 is 159x120x80mm for $25. To me 2c lower temps from similar size cooler costing 5 times as much makes it illogical to me .. and as I remember that was what I kept pointing out.


The disagreement with the Phononic cooler was not over ability vs. cost but whether it could cool or not. You made it abundantly clear you did not understand how Peltier works and insisted the cooler wouldn't cool well despite someone—Duality 92—who actually had used the cooler saying it did cool well.

http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...nonic-hex-2-0-integrated-92mm-cpu-cooler.html

I have better things to do than try to find your comments that all ASUS MOBOs have fake PWM chassis fan headers, especially since this forum is still messed up and the search functions are not back up to snuff yet.


----------



## 8051

Lady Fitzgerald said:


> The disagreement with the Phononic cooler was not over ability vs. cost but whether it could cool or not. You made it abundantly clear you did not understand how Peltier works and insisted the cooler wouldn't cool well despite someone—Duality 92—who actually had used the cooler saying it did cool well.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...nonic-hex-2-0-integrated-92mm-cpu-cooler.html
> 
> I have better things to do than try to find your comments that all ASUS MOBOs have fake PWM chassis fan headers, especially since this forum is still messed up and the search functions are not back up to snuff yet.


You have a whole thread devoted to this cooler, why bring it up here?

I wonder what happens when you reach the max TDP of a peltier? Does it become an insulator? Does it die?


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

8051 said:


> You have a whole thread devoted to this cooler, why bring it up here?...


Doyll asked for links. I gave the one I could easily find.


----------



## doyll

Lady Fitzgerald said:


> The disagreement with the Phononic cooler was not over ability vs. cost but whether it could cool or not. You made it abundantly clear you did not understand how Peltier works and insisted the cooler wouldn't cool well despite someone—Duality 92—who actually had used the cooler saying it did cool well.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...nonic-hex-2-0-integrated-92mm-cpu-cooler.html
> 
> I have better things to do than try to find your comments that all ASUS MOBOs have fake PWM chassis fan headers, especially since this forum is still messed up and the search functions are not back up to snuff yet.





Lady Fitzgerald said:


> Doyll asked for links. I gave the one I could easily find.


So you can't prove your claim about Asus PWM headers, and to try and prove your claim of me being wrong about Phononic you link to an entire thread. In ohter words you are posting total garbage about me .. and have absolutely no proof of your claim. 

I admit I do say the Phononic Hex 2.0 isn't worth it's price and more a gimmick than good cooler. Reviews show it to be hardly better than Cooler Master 212 .. except at very low wattage like at 60w it's 5.9c cooler than 212 (but that is 6.1c above ambient verses 212 being 11.2c above ambient so aobut 27c to 33c .. COPU temps so low the 5.9c cooler means nothing. But at 150 watt they only 2.1 and at 250 watt they both are same temp. same as 212. Who cares if it will keep CPU at 27c instead of 32c? that is 30c below even AMD with about 60c maximum operating temp. 
https://www.anandtech.com/show/10695/the-phononic-hex-2-0-tec-cpu-cooler-review/4

I'll say it again, to me the Phononic Hex 2.0 is a gimmick cooler with 

and about same as H7 costing $30-40 .. and H7 is 98x123x145 mm versus 2.0 being 98x112x125mm .. both are basically same size .. in fact H7 is narrower and might fit where you couldn't fit 2.0
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/7772/phononic-hex-2-thermoelectric-cpu-cooler-review/index8.html

But where is your proof of claim I said Asus had no PWM fan headers? I'll tell you where. It's all in your head because I know darn well that Asus has some PWM fan headers on even several years old motherboards. What I remember saying is most of the fan headers (all but CPU)t hey claimed were PWM on many motherboards were in fact only had 3 functioning pins. I don't know, maybe they were sending pulses of 12v power instead of variable voltage on pin-2, but they were not 4-pin PWM fan headers. 

Above is proof about your 'wondrous' Phononic Hex 2.0 as well as explanation of what I remember saying about Asus PWM fan headers. 
It's time you retract your slanderous false claims about what you think I said years ago.

That is, if you have enough credibility and self-respect to admit at the very least you grossly exaggerated what you remember.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

doyll said:


> So you can't prove your claim about Asus PWM headers, and to try and prove your claim of me being wrong about Phononic you link to an entire thread. In ohter words you are posting total garbage about me .. and have absolutely no proof of your claim.
> 
> I admit I do say the Phononic Hex 2.0 isn't worth it's price and more a gimmick than good cooler. Reviews show it to be hardly better than Cooler Master 212 .. except at very low wattage like at 60w it's 5.9c cooler than 212 (but that is 6.1c above ambient verses 212 being 11.2c above ambient so aobut 27c to 33c .. COPU temps so low the 5.9c cooler means nothing. But at 150 watt they only 2.1 and at 250 watt they both are same temp. same as 212. Who cares if it will keep CPU at 27c instead of 32c? that is 30c below even AMD with about 60c maximum operating temp.
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/10695/the-phononic-hex-2-0-tec-cpu-cooler-review/4
> 
> I'll say it again, to me the Phononic Hex 2.0 is a gimmick cooler with
> 
> and about same as H7 costing $30-40 .. and H7 is 98x123x145 mm versus 2.0 being 98x112x125mm .. both are basically same size .. in fact H7 is narrower and might fit where you couldn't fit 2.0
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/7772/phononic-hex-2-thermoelectric-cpu-cooler-review/index8.html
> 
> But where is your proof of claim I said Asus had no PWM fan headers? I'll tell you where. It's all in your head because I know darn well that Asus has some PWM fan headers on even several years old motherboards. What I remember saying is most of the fan headers (all but CPU)t hey claimed were PWM on many motherboards were in fact only had 3 functioning pins. I don't know, maybe they were sending pulses of 12v power instead of variable voltage on pin-2, but they were not 4-pin PWM fan headers.
> 
> Above is proof about your 'wondrous' Phononic Hex 2.0 as well as explanation of what I remember saying about Asus PWM fan headers.
> It's time you retract your slanderous false claims about what you think I said years ago.
> 
> That is, if you have enough credibility and self-respect to admit at the very least you grossly exaggerated what you remember.


The only reason I can't prove what you said about Asus headers is the search engine in this new forum sucks and I'm not going to waste my time digging back through hundreds (if not more) posts trying to find it. But, thank you, you just restated it when you just now said "all but CPU" so no further proof needed (Mayhap it was ambiguous posts of yours I'm remembering? I don't want to argue with you.). Again, not all ASUS MOBO chassis headers are the fake 4 pin PWM headers. Many, probably most, of them are but on the better boards, such as the P9X79 WS and the X99-E USB 3.1, the 4-pin chassis headers are true PWM headers that you can switch between voltage control and PWM control (the former via a jumper on the MOBO and the latter within the UEFI).

This was posted by Duality92 in my thread about the Phononic HEX 2.0:

_I've been using mine since the past year on various platforms, I'm currently cooling a 7640X on a Rampage Apex. The chip can run at 5.3 GHz with 1.35V, temps top at 80C smile.gif As far as clearance goes, the main issue I always encounter with it is if the first slot on your motherboard is x16 and you use it. since there's a 6-pin connector (and USB and 4-pin). If you want the Phononic Hex 2.0's fan to face the rear exhaust, you have to have the connector facing the expansion slots.

It will be able to cool your 5820k. 
_

Yet you continued to argue that the cooler wouldn't cool adequately solely based on fin area. You just couldn't grasp the concept that the TEC plate will elevate the temperature coming from the CPU going to the fins, the same as an AC will elevate the temperature of air inside a building so the hotter outside air is able to cool it down further. And just because the TEC plate uses power to do that is just as invalid as saying an AC can't cool well because it uses power to run the compressor. Comparing the HEX 2.0 to an H7 is like comparing oranges to kumquats because they are both orange colored since you are ignoring (or don't understand) what the TEC plate does.


----------



## doyll

Lady Fitzgerald said:


> The only reason I can't prove what you said about Asus headers is the search engine in this new forum sucks and I'm not going to waste my time digging back through hundreds (if not more) posts trying to find it. But, thank you, you just restated it when you just now said "all but CPU" so no further proof needed (Mayhap it was ambiguous posts of yours I'm remembering? I don't want to argue with you.). Again, not all ASUS MOBO chassis headers are the fake 4 pin PWM headers. Many, probably most, of them are but on the better boards, such as the P9X79 WS and the X99-E USB 3.1, the 4-pin chassis headers are true PWM headers that you can switch between voltage control and PWM control (the former via a jumper on the MOBO and the latter within the UEFI).
> 
> This was posted by Duality92 in my thread about the Phononic HEX 2.0:
> 
> _I've been using mine since the past year on various platforms, I'm currently cooling a 7640X on a Rampage Apex. The chip can run at 5.3 GHz with 1.35V, temps top at 80C smile.gif As far as clearance goes, the main issue I always encounter with it is if the first slot on your motherboard is x16 and you use it. since there's a 6-pin connector (and USB and 4-pin). If you want the Phononic Hex 2.0's fan to face the rear exhaust, you have to have the connector facing the expansion slots.
> 
> It will be able to cool your 5820k.
> _
> 
> Yet you continued to argue that the cooler wouldn't cool adequately solely based on fin area. You just couldn't grasp the concept that the TEC plate will elevate the temperature coming from the CPU going to the fins, the same as an AC will elevate the temperature of air inside a building so the hotter outside air is able to cool it down further. And just because the TEC plate uses power to do that is just as invalid as saying an AC can't cool well because it uses power to run the compressor. Comparing the HEX 2.0 to an H7 is like comparing oranges to kumquats because they are both orange colored since you are ignoring (or don't understand) what the TEC plate does.


Well I don't believe I would have said all no Asus fan headers are PWM in context of mean all Asus motherboards. I've got more sense than that. I'm running an Asus Rampage III with CPU PWM fan header has had PWM CPU fan headers for years, but they made false claims about other 4-pin headers being PWM a few years back and there was quite a stir over it .. as I stated above and most likely what you are miss-remembering. 

What Duality92 said it is one source of information and testing of Hex 2.0 .. I included 2 links above verifying what I said about it. Anandtech is best because it show results at different heat ranges, but I already showed that above. 

Why is what Duality92 said any more valid then what Anandtech and Tweaktown .. that Hex 2.0 is not all that great, but one heck of a gimmick to sell to some who like gimmicks. 

My argument in your thread about Hex 2.0 was the same as what I said above. 

How is comparing the Hex 2.0 to an H7 not relevant? Both are small CPU cooler that cool the same under high wattage loads, and at lower wattage Hex 2.0 give lower temps .. major difference is one has Peltier and one does not .. and the difference between 27c vs 32c is irrelevant because it's so far below safe temperature threshold it's stupid to consider it other them simply mentioning it. At higher wattage H7 is just as good and slightly smaller then Hex 2.0, and that was my point you argued about in your thread and now here. Maybe Hex 2.0 was named 2.0 for being 2c cooler at low wattage?

Yes, it will cool your 140w TDP 5820k, but I never said it wouldn't cool your cpu. I said I did not think it was worth the expense, power consumption, etc.


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

doyll said:


> Well I don't believe I would have said all no Asus fan headers are PWM in context of mean all Asus motherboards. I've got more sense than that. I'm running an Asus Rampage III with CPU PWM fan header has had PWM CPU fan headers for years, but they made false claims about other 4-pin headers being PWM a few years back and there was quite a stir over it .. as I stated above and most likely what you are miss-remembering.
> 
> What Duality92 said it is one source of information and testing of Hex 2.0 .. I included 2 links above verifying what I said about it. Anandtech is best because it show results at different heat ranges, but I already showed that above.
> 
> Why is what Duality92 said any more valid then what Anandtech and Tweaktown .. that Hex 2.0 is not all that great, but one heck of a gimmick to sell to some who like gimmicks.
> 
> My argument in your thread about Hex 2.0 was the same as what I said above.
> 
> How is comparing the Hex 2.0 to an H7 not relevant? Both are small CPU cooler that cool the same under high wattage loads, and at lower wattage Hex 2.0 give lower temps .. major difference is one has Peltier and one does not .. and the difference between 27c vs 32c is irrelevant because it's so far below safe temperature threshold it's stupid to consider it other them simply mentioning it. At higher wattage H7 is just as good and slightly smaller then Hex 2.0, and that was my point you argued about in your thread and now here. Maybe Hex 2.0 was named 2.0 for being 2c cooler at low wattage?
> 
> Yes, it will cool your 140w TDP 5820k, but I never said it wouldn't cool your cpu. I said I did not think it was worth the expense, power consumption, etc.


I give up. Once you have your mind made up about something, you won't budge, no matter what anyone says or what evidence anyone presents. And you keep demonstrating your ignorance of how Peltier works when you compare the HEX 2.0 with the H7. I used to have a lot of respect for your knowledge but that has since plummeted.


----------



## doyll

Lady Fitzgerald said:


> I give up. Once you have your mind made up about something, you won't budge, no matter what anyone says or what evidence anyone presents. And you keep demonstrating your ignorance of how Peltier works when you compare the HEX 2.0 with the H7. I used to have a lot of respect for your knowledge but that has since plummeted.


Yeah, give up .. but you have supplied no evidence proving I ever said 'All Asus motherboard headers are not PWM" .. BECAUSE I NEVER SAID OR POSTED IT!!!

What is so hard for you to understand about Peltiers? Simple explaination of what they do is generate a cool side and move the heat from that side to other side. 

An functionality of an air cooler is the same with Peltier or wihtout Peltier. All the Peltier does is draw heat on one side and push that heat plus it's operational heat into air cooled fins, be that through a base with heatpipes or some other means. CPU temperature versus cooler intake air temperature determines how well the air cooler is performing with a Peltier in it's cooling system or without a Peltier in it's cooling system. 

Multiple testing has shown Hex 2.0 air cooler with Peltier running gives only marginally lower CPU temps up to 200 watt TDP CPU load than a similar size and higher temps above 200 watt TDP. 

What is it you don't understand about how Peltier that makes you think it is doing anything not stated in last paragraph? 

That is all it does and it does. For me there is no real plus to using Hex 2.0, but it does have something else using power and that can possible fail. So for me the logical thing to do is use the KISS principle .. keep it simple and use a normal air cooler that keeps CPU well below accepted operating temperature limits.

That way there is worry at all about Peltier ever failing or it's thermostatic system failing so it is working at low CPU temps and lowers it and cooler base to below ambient temp and very possibly causing condensation, which then can corrode and/or short out other electronics near CPU and possibly damage or destroy motherboard and/or CPU. Which was the problem with Peltier assisted water cooling systems in the old days. Those old days before we had good heatpipe air coolers to use. 

We reached this same impasse the other time we had this conversation .. you claiming I did not know/understand what Peltier was there for and other small air coolers had similar performance. 

But you have still not explained why using a H7 and it's temperatures is not a realistic comparison to a Hex 2.0 with Peltier. How come the CPU temperatures recorded with H7 cooler can not be compared to temperatures recorded with Hex 2.0 running a Peltier on the same CPU / heat source not be compared?


----------



## Lady Fitzgerald

doyll said:


> Yeah, give up .. but you have supplied no evidence proving I ever said 'All Asus motherboard headers are not PWM" .. BECAUSE I NEVER SAID OR POSTED IT!!!
> 
> What is so hard for you to understand about Peltiers? Simple explaination of what they do is generate a cool side and move the heat from that side to other side.
> 
> An functionality of an air cooler is the same with Peltier or wihtout Peltier. All the Peltier does is draw heat on one side and push that heat plus it's operational heat into air cooled fins, be that through a base with heatpipes or some other means. CPU temperature versus cooler intake air temperature determines how well the air cooler is performing with a Peltier in it's cooling system or without a Peltier in it's cooling system.
> 
> Multiple testing has shown Hex 2.0 air cooler with Peltier running gives only marginally lower CPU temps up to 200 watt TDP CPU load than a similar size and higher temps above 200 watt TDP.
> 
> What is it you don't understand about how Peltier that makes you think it is doing anything not stated in last paragraph?
> 
> That is all it does and it does. For me there is no real plus to using Hex 2.0, but it does have something else using power and that can possible fail. So for me the logical thing to do is use the KISS principle .. keep it simple and use a normal air cooler that keeps CPU well below accepted operating temperature limits.
> 
> That way there is worry at all about Peltier ever failing or it's thermostatic system failing so it is working at low CPU temps and lowers it and cooler base to below ambient temp and very possibly causing condensation, which then can corrode and/or short out other electronics near CPU and possibly damage or destroy motherboard and/or CPU. Which was the problem with Peltier assisted water cooling systems in the old days. Those old days before we had good heatpipe air coolers to use.
> 
> We reached this same impasse the other time we had this conversation .. you claiming I did not know/understand what Peltier was there for and other small air coolers had similar performance.
> 
> But you have still not explained why using a H7 and it's temperatures is not a realistic comparison to a Hex 2.0 with Peltier. How come the CPU temperatures recorded with H7 cooler can not be compared to temperatures recorded with Hex 2.0 running a Peltier on the same CPU / heat source not be compared?


----------



## mouacyk

It's OK. We're all "New to Overclock.net" anyway. It's for real, check under his name.


----------



## Gilles3000

mouacyk said:


> It's OK. We're all "New to Overclock.net" anyway. It's for real, check under his name.


Yep, gotta love how they handled the move to the new platform, I wonder who decided to push it live while it obviously was no where near ready.

You can change it again in your profile settings tho.

But it seems like most of the site is mostly functional now, even though its still horrendously ugly and missing features.


----------



## ciarlatano

Lady Fitzgerald said:


> You aren't paying attention. I said that you said ALL ASUS MOBOs had 4-pin headers that were not PWM.


Actually....what doyll (and myself) have always pointed out is that many ASUS motherboards list headers as being "PWM", where as they are actually four pin headers that still use voltage control. This was the case in most of their MBs prior to Z97. I went through fits with a Sabertooth Z87 that I purchased specifically because ASUS insisted that all of the headers were PWM capable, and that was not the case at all as only the CPU headers had an actual PWM signal.


----------



## Ricwin

ciarlatano said:


> Actually....what doyll (and myself) have always pointed out is that many ASUS motherboards list headers as being "PWM", where as they are actually four pin headers that still use voltage control. This was the case in most of their MBs prior to Z97. I went through fits with a Sabertooth Z87 that I purchased specifically because ASUS insisted that all of the headers were PWM capable, and that was not the case at all as only the CPU headers had an actual PWM signal.



My previous board was a Sabertooth 990FX r2.0 with six 4pin headers. CPU and Chassis Fans 1-3 were all PWM. Chassis 4 and CPU Optional were voltage controlled despite being advertised as PWM as well.


----------



## Lorentzen

Hi doyll!

I am unsure if you missed my reply amongst the other posts if this is the case it is located on page 118.
The direct link to the post should be http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...airflow-cooler-fan-data-118.html#post26647977

Thanks!


----------



## Lorentzen




----------



## doyll

Lorentzen said:


> Hi doyll!
> Thanks for your reply, I have actually looked at thoose posts but at the moment I do not have any thermometers.
> I will go ahead and buy one for the purpose, but I would very much still like some recommendations on fans.
> 
> Hands down you have me convinced, if it aint broke don't fix it and my D14 seems to be as solid a contender as it was back when I bought it.
> I will look into modding it instead maybe with your recommended fans and some of noctuas chromax line.
> 
> Okay so I will link 3 different retailers which seems to have the widest variety of fans.
> Im sorry but none of them offers english language so I have tried to make it simpler by splitting them into 120mm fans and 140mm fans
> 120mm fans:
> https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1345/kabinet-k-248-ling?f=a57c6972-2f4e-402b-8caa-4f3cb58b0f25&p=1&sq=
> https://www.proshop.dk/Kabinet-Koeler?f~kabinet-koeler_blaeser-diameter=120-mm&pre=0
> https://www.coolerkit.dk/shop/120mm-254c1.html
> 
> 140mm fans:
> https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1345/kabinet-k-248-ling?f=ee7b1882-0bac-4135-b313-dbd74ac2c57a&p=1&sq=
> https://www.proshop.dk/Kabinet-Koeler?f~kabinet-koeler_blaeser-diameter=140-mm&pre=0
> https://www.coolerkit.dk/shop/140mm-256c1.html
> 
> I guess I would prefer 2x 140mm fans for front intake and 1x 120mm fan for exhaust if any of the retailers has sufficient fans for this setup.
> Thanks for taking your time!


Sadly Noctua has discontinued the NH-D14 and makes no Chromax covers for it. The D15 fins are approx 51x150mm (I can measure my D15 to be exact). I think D14 fins are 51x140mm .. you can measure to be sure. If they are the same width it might be possible to cut and glue the D15 Chromax cover to fit D14 finpacks. 

Thermalright TY-147B fans are a very good 140mm fan to use on cooler, but they cost DKK 149,14 .. still considering a A15 Chromax is DKK 223.00, not a bad price. That is assuming you can fit a 140 on front. Even if you cannot, a single 140mm fan will be within a couple degrees of temperatures 2x fans give. TY-143 is also very good, and makes same noise as Ty-147A up to 1300rpm, but from 1300 to 2500rpm it gets progressively louder. For my use |I don't run either fan above about 1100rpm even though it is not loud at 1300rpm, or even 1500rpm. TY-147B is black and white, but TY-143 is red and orange.

https://www.computersalg.dk/i/1554438/thermalright-ty-147-a-computer

https://www.computersalg.dk/i/1184006/thermalright-ty-143-computer

For case the TY-147A SQ is my go to fan and at DDK 134.13 not crazy expensive .. still about twice the price os Arctic F14

https://www.computersalg.dk/i/3253834/lüfter-thermalright-tr-ty-147a-sq?sq=ty-147a

Arctic F12 and F14 series all but the Pro model are good fans, especially considering their much lower DKK 56.00 to 75.00 price which makes them a very good fan value in a square case fan. Probably one with PWM control .. some have female connector so you can plug more than one on a fan header. Take a look at them if you want to save some money. Just keep in mind they are not as good as TY-147A SQ, but many find them the best way to go on a limited budget. 

With good front intake fans you shouldn't need any exhaust fans. Good high pressure rated fans easily push air all the way through the case. 

If I missed something let me know.


----------



## ciarlatano

Ricwin said:


> My previous board was a Sabertooth 990FX r2.0 with six 4pin headers. CPU and Chassis Fans 1-3 were all PWM. Chassis 4 and CPU Optional were voltage controlled despite being advertised as PWM as well.


The manual shows only the CPU headers having a PWM output.


----------



## Lorentzen

doyll said:


> Sadly Noctua has discontinued the NH-D14 and makes no Chromax covers for it. The D15 fins are approx 51x150mm (I can measure my D15 to be exact). I think D14 fins are 51x140mm .. you can measure to be sure. If they are the same width it might be possible to cut and glue the D15 Chromax cover to fit D14 finpacks.
> 
> Thermalright TY-147B fans are a very good 140mm fan to use on cooler, but they cost DKK 149,14 .. still considering a A15 Chromax is DKK 223.00, not a bad price. That is assuming you can fit a 140 on front. Even if you cannot, a single 140mm fan will be within a couple degrees of temperatures 2x fans give. TY-143 is also very good, and makes same noise as Ty-147A up to 1300rpm, but from 1300 to 2500rpm it gets progressively louder. For my use |I don't run either fan above about 1100rpm even though it is not loud at 1300rpm, or even 1500rpm. TY-147B is black and white, but TY-143 is red and orange.
> 
> https://www.computersalg.dk/i/1554438/thermalright-ty-147-a-computer
> 
> https://www.computersalg.dk/i/1184006/thermalright-ty-143-computer
> 
> For case the TY-147A SQ is my go to fan and at DDK 134.13 not crazy expensive .. still about twice the price os Arctic F14
> 
> https://www.computersalg.dk/i/3253834/lüfter-thermalright-tr-ty-147a-sq?sq=ty-147a
> 
> Arctic F12 and F14 series all but the Pro model are good fans, especially considering their much lower DKK 56.00 to 75.00 price which makes them a very good fan value in a square case fan. Probably one with PWM control .. some have female connector so you can plug more than one on a fan header. Take a look at them if you want to save some money. Just keep in mind they are not as good as TY-147A SQ, but many find them the best way to go on a limited budget.
> 
> With good front intake fans you shouldn't need any exhaust fans. Good high pressure rated fans easily push air all the way through the case.
> 
> If I missed something let me know.


I don't think you missed anything!
Just to be sure recommendation for the case fans would be two TY-147A SQ as intake, remove the 120mm exhaust and don't replace it as it is not necessary?
About the chromax covers I will probably just omit thoose I don't really mind the look of the raw finpacks 
For the cpu cooler fans do you mean the TY147B or TY147A, I'm having doubts as you mentioned both and linked the TY147A version and computersalg.dk has both.
I am using Corsair LPX memory two blocks of 8GB in DIMM 2 and 4 so I think there should be sufficient space for two TY-147A/B fans.
Thanks!


----------



## 8051

Another question for Doyll, are the thermalright ty-143 fans designed to be taller than wider so that they're output will more closely match the rectangular shape of thermalright's heatsinks?
For some reason I could never get the the thermalright ty-143 to fit as nicely in the middle position of my ph-tc14pe as the noctua NF-A14 IndustrialPPC-3000, the ty-143 would stick out above the fin stacks.


----------



## doyll

Lorentzen said:


> I don't think you missed anything!
> Just to be sure recommendation for the case fans would be two TY-147A SQ as intake, remove the 120mm exhaust and don't replace it as it is not necessary?
> About the chromax covers I will probably just omit thoose I don't really mind the look of the raw finpacks
> For the cpu cooler fans do you mean the TY147B or TY147A, I'm having doubts as you mentioned both and linked the TY147A version and computersalg.dk has both.
> I am using Corsair LPX memory two blocks of 8GB in DIMM 2 and 4 so I think there should be sufficient space for two TY-147A/B fans.
> Thanks!


No rear exhaust should be needed. 

Both TY-147A and TY-147B will work just fine. Get which ever costs less.

Yes, you should be able to fit 140mm fan over RAM and have about 1.5mm of clearance. Think I said this before, but Corsair specifications say LPX is 33.5mm tall, so top is 28.5mm above top of CPU. Define C specs say 170mm CPU clearance. 



8051 said:


> Another question for Doyll, are the thermalright ty-143 fans designed to be taller than wider so that they're output will more closely match the rectangular shape of thermalright's heatsinks?
> For some reason I could never get the the thermalright ty-143 to fit as nicely in the middle position of my ph-tc14pe as the noctua NF-A14 IndustrialPPC-3000, the ty-143 would stick out above the fin stacks.


As you know, all of the normal TY series fans are flat on 2 sides and round on other 2 sides. All Thermalright photos I've seen have flat sides top and bottom .. but I have seen reviewers mounting NF-A15 and TY-14x fans both ways. 

When I put TY-143 fans on my PH-TC14PE I put flat sides top and bottom with tall thumb screw in mount crossbar into top of cooler base replaced with a screw with normal head. That allowed fan to fit flush with top of fins. The replacement screw was either a HDD mount screw or external optical drive mounting screw, I can't remember which. The airflow pattern seems to flow in kind of a oval cone shape out of them with the flat side being narrow sides of oval.

My understand is Thermalright (same as Noctua on NF-A15) made flat side for better case clearance.

What are your thoughts of NF-A15iPPC 3000 versus TY-143 sound and performance wise?


----------



## 8051

I never really got to test the system w/the ty-143 because the only way I could install it was w/the longer axis sticking up above the fin stack of the PH-tc14pe. My videocard is too close to the ph-tc14pe to install it any other way.

The ty-143 is a nice fan though, I might try using it on an Accelero Xtreme III on my 1080Ti.


----------



## marik123

Currently I have a Corsair Carbide Spec-01 case with 3x 120mm coolermaster 1200 RPM exhaust fan (1 at the rear, 2 on the top exhaust), 1x rosewill 1350 RPM 140mm intake fan. My PC spec is in the following.

Core i7 8700K o/c 5Ghz 4.7Ghz Cache 1.328v vcore (1.15v VCCIO / 1.2v VSSA) Delid CLU + MX4
Cryorig H5 Universal CPU Cooler with stock fan
16GB DDR4 3200 CL14 RAM o/c 4133Mhz 17-17-17-38 2T 1.425v
Asrock Z370 Extreme4 Motherboard 1.30 BIOS
128GB Samsung PM961 (Same as 960 Evo) M2 SSD
4TB WD Red PRO 7200RPM 128MB Cache
8GB MSI Armor Gaming OC 2075/11000 stock voltage with MX4
SATA DVDRW
550 Watt Rosewill Capstone 80 Plus Gold PSU

My temperature for CPU (using CPU-Z Bench stress) is at around 69c (can't run prime95/occt with shooting all the way to 85-90c+) and GPU is around 72c running Heaven 4.0 benchmark. I followed one of oc member instruction to remove the top 2x 120mm exhaust fan, and then add in 1x 140mm intake fan to see if that lower my temperature for CPU. It did lower my CPU by 2c now doing 67c with the same CPU-Z Bench stress, but then my GPU temperature went from 72c to 75c in Heaven 4.0 benchmark. I understand the bottom 140mm intake fan is blocked by the 4x 3.5/2.5 HDD/SSD cage so I went ahead and bought a 5.25 to 3.5 adapter and planning to place my 4TB HDD under my SATA DVDRW. That will definitely give less restriction of the bottom 140mm intake fan I have. I haven't received the 5.25 to 3.5 adapter yet as I just ordered it today. Is there any other advice I can get to reduce the temperature for my CPU?

Old Config 3x 120mm exhaust 1 rear (1200RPM), 2 top (800 RPM), 1 upper intake 140mm (1000 RPM) CPU = 69c, GPU = 72c.
New Config 1x 120mm exhaust 1 rear (1200RPM), 2x upper/lower intake 140mm (1000RPM) CPU = 67c, GPU = 75c.

All cable are tightly warped to avoid blocking air flow and my room ambient temperature is at 71F.


----------



## doyll

marik123 said:


> Currently I have a Corsair Carbide Spec-01 case with 3x 120mm coolermaster 1200 RPM exhaust fan (1 at the rear, 2 on the top exhaust), 1x rosewill 1350 RPM 140mm intake fan. My PC spec is in the following.
> 
> Core i7 8700K o/c 5Ghz 4.7Ghz Cache 1.328v vcore (1.15v VCCIO / 1.2v VSSA) Delid CLU + MX4
> Cryorig H5 Universal CPU Cooler with stock fan
> 16GB DDR4 3200 CL14 RAM o/c 4133Mhz 17-17-17-38 2T 1.425v
> Asrock Z370 Extreme4 Motherboard 1.30 BIOS
> 128GB Samsung PM961 (Same as 960 Evo) M2 SSD
> 4TB WD Red PRO 7200RPM 128MB Cache
> 8GB MSI Armor Gaming OC 2075/11000 stock voltage with MX4
> SATA DVDRW
> 550 Watt Rosewill Capstone 80 Plus Gold PSU
> 
> My temperature for CPU (using CPU-Z Bench stress) is at around 69c (can't run prime95/occt with shooting all the way to 85-90c+) and GPU is around 72c running Heaven 4.0 benchmark. I followed one of oc member instruction to remove the top 2x 120mm exhaust fan, and then add in 1x 140mm intake fan to see if that lower my temperature for CPU. It did lower my CPU by 2c now doing 67c with the same CPU-Z Bench stress, but then my GPU temperature went from 72c to 75c in Heaven 4.0 benchmark. I understand the bottom 140mm intake fan is blocked by the 4x 3.5/2.5 HDD/SSD cage so I went ahead and bought a 5.25 to 3.5 adapter and planning to place my 4TB HDD under my SATA DVDRW. That will definitely give less restriction of the bottom 140mm intake fan I have. I haven't received the 5.25 to 3.5 adapter yet as I just ordered it today. Is there any other advice I can get to reduce the temperature for my CPU?
> 
> Old Config 3x 120mm exhaust 1 rear (1200RPM), 2 top (800 RPM), 1 upper intake 140mm (1000 RPM) CPU = 69c, GPU = 72c.
> New Config 1x 120mm exhaust 1 rear (1200RPM), 2x upper/lower intake 140mm (1000RPM) CPU = 67c, GPU = 75c.
> 
> All cable are tightly warped to avoid blocking air flow and my room ambient temperature is at 71F.


Your temps are not bad for stress test results. 

The 5th post in this thread has "How Airflow works" and "Setting up a case for optimum cooling" in it. Read that and it should help you. 

Generally using fans in top and side vents disrupts good front to back airflow. Removing all PCIe slot covers gave back of case exhaust vent area arround PCIe / GPU for better front to back flow and usually lowers GPU temps.


----------



## 8051

doyll said:


> Your temps are not bad for stress test results.
> 
> The 5th post in this thread has "How Airflow works" and "Setting up a case for optimum cooling" in it. Read that and it should help you.
> 
> Generally using fans in top and side vents disrupts good front to back airflow. Removing all PCIe slot covers gave back of case exhaust vent area arround PCIe / GPU for better front to back flow and usually lowers GPU temps.


Doyll I've read articles that suggest when using video cards with axial fans in SLI/Crossfire setups an exhausting side cover fan can be conducive to cooling because of the vast amounts of heat being injected into the case. Have you found this to be the case (sorry for the double entendre)?


----------



## doyll

8051 said:


> Doyll I've read articles that suggest when using video cards with axial fans in SLI/Crossfire setups an exhausting side cover fan can be conducive to cooling because of the vast amounts of heat being injected into the case. Have you found this to be the case (sorry for the double entendre)?


Which is why the first word of my statement is "Generally". 

Must of side vent working or not working is it's placement in reference to GPU. But more often then not (same as 'generally') side venting fans don't help. 

ONly way I know of to find out for usre is to try it.


----------



## 8051

Can case floor mounted intake fans of 120mm size make any difference in case or GPU temps? Or would it just be more noise for no gain?


----------



## doyll

8051 said:


> Can case floor mounted intake fans of 120mm size make any difference in case or GPU temps? Or would it just be more noise for no gain?


Bottom vent intakes help supply cool air to GPU as long as there is nothing blocking it's path from bottom intake vent to GPU. Most cases need taller feet or open frame caster base to improve airflow space to bottom intake fan/s


----------



## leops1984

I have an air cooling question. I am contemplating doing a rebuild of my existing system (i5-3470, GTX 1070) in a new case. This is mostly because a) I need to scratch my system building itch, and b) the current case and configuration (Lian Li PC-7) is a dust magnet. 

I haven't 100% settled on what case I'll rebuild in, but the current leading candidate would be the Fractal Design Define R6. Either way my goal would be to build a positive pressure system. My question is: what do I do about the other ventilation holes? I'm taking about the slot covers or any other holes in the back panel that don't have a fan or a filter. If my goal is to minimize the amount of dust entering my case, is it worth it to tape those entrances up, and do I incur a significant temperature penalty doing so?


----------



## 8051

leops1984 said:


> I have an air cooling question. I am contemplating doing a rebuild of my existing system (i5-3470, GTX 1070) in a new case. This is mostly because a) I need to scratch my system building itch, and b) the current case and configuration (Lian Li PC-7) is a dust magnet.
> 
> I haven't 100% settled on what case I'll rebuild in, but the current leading candidate would be the Fractal Design Define R6. Either way my goal would be to build a positive pressure system. My question is: what do I do about the other ventilation holes? I'm taking about the slot covers or any other holes in the back panel that don't have a fan or a filter. If my goal is to minimize the amount of dust entering my case, is it worth it to tape those entrances up, and do I incur a significant temperature penalty doing so?


I live in an extremely dusty environment so I've tried what you've suggested in terms of covering all vents with tape or foam and filtering all intakes. My problem is that I have only one intake fan, a 200x32mm slow speed fan and two exhaust fans. Dust still gets into my system, but it's not as bad as it used to be, the filters get absolutely caked w/dust though.


----------



## doyll

leops1984 said:


> I have an air cooling question. I am contemplating doing a rebuild of my existing system (i5-3470, GTX 1070) in a new case. This is mostly because a) I need to scratch my system building itch, and b) the current case and configuration (Lian Li PC-7) is a dust magnet.
> 
> I haven't 100% settled on what case I'll rebuild in, but the current leading candidate would be the Fractal Design Define R6. Either way my goal would be to build a positive pressure system. My question is: what do I do about the other ventilation holes? I'm taking about the slot covers or any other holes in the back panel that don't have a fan or a filter. If my goal is to minimize the amount of dust entering my case, is it worth it to tape those entrances up, and do I incur a significant temperature penalty doing so?


Define R6 is basically an improved verison of earlier Define R series cases. All work well with 2x 140mm front and 1x bottom intakes with upper front speed controlled by CPU temp and lower front & bottom by GPU temp with all PCIe back slot overs removed. With good intake fans (stock fans are not good) no exhaust fans are needed.


----------



## leops1984

doyll said:


> Define R6 is basically an improved verison of earlier Define R series cases. All work well with 2x 140mm front and 1x bottom intakes with upper front speed controlled by CPU temp and lower front & bottom by GPU temp with all PCIe back slot overs removed. With good intake fans (stock fans are not good) no exhaust fans are needed.


Removing the back slot covers is a dealbreaker for me for dust accumulation reasons. Two other cases I'm looking at are the Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ATX and the Enthoo Pro M. Both in terms of cooling and dust resistance, how do the two compare to the R6? FWIW price-wise the Evolv and the R6 are about the same price locally, but the Pro M is a little over half of the two pricier cases. All prices are for the tempered glass versions.


----------



## doyll

leops1984 said:


> Removing the back slot covers is a dealbreaker for me for dust accumulation reasons. Two other cases I'm looking at are the Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ATX and the Enthoo Pro M. Both in terms of cooling and dust resistance, how do the two compare to the R6? FWIW price-wise the Evolv and the R6 are about the same price locally, but the Pro M is a little over half of the two pricier cases. All prices are for the tempered glass versions.


Read the 5th post in this thread to understand how airflow works in our cases. Then maybe you will understand why I say remove PCIe slot covers

If I remember correctly the Enthoo Pro and Evolv ATX use same basic chassis with different side, top and front panels. Pro M only has 1x 140mm fan so you would need to get at least 1 more .. and the included fan is not a PH-F140SP as specifications say, but a fan with PH-F140SP housing and motor using aPH-F140MP impeller .. you cannot buy this fan as an accessory. 

I have Evolv ATX and like it very much, but mine came with 200mm fan (terrible fan) so changed to 2x 140mm PH-F140MP fans. New Evovl ATX come with 3x 140mm fans similar to PH-F140MP .. the same SP housing and motor with MP impeller as single fan in Pro M. 

Another very nice case is Enthoo Luxe and Enthoo Pro. The use same basic chassis with different tops and fronts. 

And advantage of Define R5 and R6 is bottom filter is full length and comes out the front, so generally easy to clear both front and bottom filters without moving case. Enthoo Luxe and Enthoo Pro have 2 piece bottom filter that can be easily modified to slide out front, so both bottom and front filters can be cleaned without moving case. 

While tempered glass is the craze, and before that it was plastic window, they neither help cooling or noise levels and with most of us putting our cases on floor along side or under desks often cannot even be seen.


----------



## leops1984

doyll said:


> Read the 5th post in this thread to understand how airflow works in our cases. Then maybe you will understand why I say remove PCIe slot covers


I think I understand that bit - both from that post and from what I've read from you, you heavily emphasize removing obstructions like grills, etcetera. So removing the slot covers would significantly improve airflow through the case. I just worry about the potential environmental problems (i.e., insects, dust, etc.) that would bring.



> I have Evolv ATX and like it very much, but mine came with 200mm fan (terrible fan) so changed to 2x 140mm PH-F140MP fans. New Evovl ATX come with 3x 140mm fans similar to PH-F140MP .. the same SP housing and motor with MP impeller as single fan in Pro M.
> 
> Another very nice case is Enthoo Luxe and Enthoo Pro. The use same basic chassis with different tops and fronts.


For purely aesthetic reasons I do want tempered glass (I don't put my case on the floor, so I can appreciate the aesthetic aspects of my build). The Evolv ATX seems to be more easily available than the Luxe (both tempered glass versions). If it came down to those two, which would you recommend?


----------



## marik123

doyll said:


> Your temps are not bad for stress test results.
> 
> The 5th post in this thread has "How Airflow works" and "Setting up a case for optimum cooling" in it. Read that and it should help you.
> 
> Generally using fans in top and side vents disrupts good front to back airflow. Removing all PCIe slot covers gave back of case exhaust vent area arround PCIe / GPU for better front to back flow and usually lowers GPU temps.


Actually my PCI cover has vents in them already. I will attach a picture here for reference and can you please tell me what else I can do better to lower the temperatures? I also add back the top exhaust fan closest to the back of the case for extra exhaust and last night I tightly wrapped my cables to the back of the case and make sure as little cable as possible to block any air flow going in.


----------



## doyll

leops1984 said:


> I think I understand that bit - both from that post and from what I've read from you, you heavily emphasize removing obstructions like grills, etcetera. So removing the slot covers would significantly improve airflow through the case. I just worry about the potential environmental problems (i.e., insects, dust, etc.) that would bring.
> 
> For purely aesthetic reasons I do want tempered glass (I don't put my case on the floor, so I can appreciate the aesthetic aspects of my build). The Evolv ATX seems to be more easily available than the Luxe (both tempered glass versions). If it came down to those two, which would you recommend?


Based on others who build systems the way I suggested and my own builds (several a month) removing the PCIe slot covers improves front to back airflow around GPU which generally improves cool airflow to CPU cooler.

Okay, then tempered glass makes sense. 

The Luxe has more room and with a few minute mod PSU filter slides out front with other bottom filter .. can't do that with Evolv ATX. Some people complain about Evolv not having good airflow, but I'm using both Evolv ATX and Evolv mATX air cooled systems with no problems. I find they flow air quite well. Which one you choose is a personal thing. I like all three. 

My Enthoo Luxe came with 200mm fan (it's worthless) which I replaced with 2x front and 1x bottom PH-F140SP intake fans connected to included PWM controlled fan hub. PSU cover is removed and no exhaust fans and it sets on a 30mm caster base for easy access and better airflow to bottom vents. http://www.overclock.net/forum/22657923-post15.html It has an optical drive too. I built it several years ago before new case fans that are basically PH-F140SP housing and motor with a PH-F140MP impeller were the included case fans. If you go with the Luxe you will have to replace the 200mm fan. 

My Evolv ATX has 2x front intakes (the included fans) and no exhaust fans. I experimented with spacing front out, setting top on without latching it down, etc. and found it made little difference. 

My latest build is Evolv mATX has 2x front intakes (the included fans) and no exhaust fans.


----------



## doyll

marik123 said:


> Actually my PCI cover has vents in them already. I will attach a picture here for reference and can you please tell me what else I can do better to lower the temperatures? I also add back the top exhaust fan closest to the back of the case for extra exhaust and last night I tightly wrapped my cables to the back of the case and make sure as little cable as possible to block any air flow going in.


The vented PCIe slot covers still block more than 50% of area you will have with them removed, and that does not even take into account how much more airflow restriction caused by their air turbulence creates.
http://www.overclock.net/forum/22657923-post15.html

If you have a lower 16x PCie socket, lower the GPU to it so there is better flow to CPU cooler area and any heat coming off of GPU will move back and out your OPEN PCIE SLOTS. 

Not every suggestion I make is garranteed to improve cooling. Airflow is a ficked witch who often does things we don't expect. Sometimes what we think should work does not.

Best way to find out if your temps are as low as possible it monitor case airflow into components. The closer to room ambient the air is going into/over CPU cooler, GPU cooler, motherboard heatsinks, etc. the cooler they will be. 1st and 5ths post in this thread show what I use to monitor air temp. 5th post explains how I optimize case airflow.


----------



## leops1984

doyll said:


> Based on others who build systems the way I suggested and my own builds (several a month) removing the PCIe slot covers improves front to back airflow around GPU which generally improves cool airflow to CPU cooler.
> 
> Okay, then tempered glass makes sense.
> 
> The Luxe has more room and with a few minute mod PSU filter slides out front with other bottom filter .. can't do that with Evolv ATX. Some people complain about Evolv not having good airflow, but I'm using both Evolv ATX and Evolv mATX air cooled systems with no problems. I find they flow air quite well. Which one you choose is a personal thing. I like all three.
> 
> My Enthoo Luxe came with 200mm fan (it's worthless) which I replaced with 2x front and 1x bottom PH-F140SP intake fans connected to included PWM controlled fan hub. PSU cover is removed and no exhaust fans and it sets on a 30mm caster base for easy access and better airflow to bottom vents. http://www.overclock.net/forum/22657923-post15.html It has an optical drive too. I built it several years ago before new case fans that are basically PH-F140SP housing and motor with a PH-F140MP impeller were the included case fans. If you go with the Luxe you will have to replace the 200mm fan.
> 
> My Evolv ATX has 2x front intakes (the included fans) and no exhaust fans. I experimented with spacing front out, setting top on without latching it down, etc. and found it made little difference.
> 
> My latest build is Evolv mATX has 2x front intakes (the included fans) and no exhaust fans.


FWIW the tempered glass version of the Luxe they're selling here doesn't have the 200mm fan anymore, it comes with four of those new 140mm fans. I'll keep those in mind, thank you for the information.


----------



## doyll

leops1984 said:


> FWIW the tempered glass version of the Luxe they're selling here doesn't have the 200mm fan anymore, it comes with four of those new 140mm fans. I'll keep those in mind, thank you for the information.


So if you decide to get Luxe you won't need any more fans. :thumb:
Here is link to filter mod to make it a one piece filter that slides out front.
http://www.overclock.net/forum/23772496-post63.html

Yeah, Phanteks does not update their website (or even tell us) about changes in cases, coolers, fans .. and I assume anything they market other than original specifications. It's too bad because so far they have good products. Just too bad we have no idea what if any changes are made in them unless someone like you or me tells us about them.  New PH-TC14PE has one piece fins when original had 2-piece fins, Most case specs still say case fans are 'PH-F140SP' when they are not. It took me over a year to find out what the specs were on these new case fans .. I tested a couple that came in a new case and they are quite good .. a little better then older PH-F140SP and same performance as PH-F140MP at same rpm.


----------



## VBoOmeRanGV

Not sure if I'm in the right place, but: I have the Thermaltake Core P3SE which is an open design with no fan placement other than liquid cooling stuff. I've used the AMD Wraith Spire and OC'd my CPU from 3.6 to 3.9 and the temps haven't changed. I just wanted to find a place to give credit, because there's a lot of bad info about AMD's new coolers. I am super impressed.


----------



## Astral85

Hi doyll.

What sort of configuration/rpm would you suggest for removing large amounts of air cooled GPU heat? I have a Corsair Obsidian 450D and 1080 Ti. I run an H110i top mounted exhaust, 2 x AF140's front intake, 1 x Noctua NF-F12 120mm as rear exhaust and a ML120 bottom mount pushing air up into the GPU. 

Currently with a 20-24C ambient room temperature I am running the fans for gaming at: AF140's 1000rpm, H110i CPU (ML140's) 1000-1150rpm, NF-F12 (rear slot) 1250 rpm and bottom ML120 700 rpm. 

Should I crank the NF-F12 even further to remove GPU waste heat or will I lose the balance between cool air coming in and hot air going out?


----------



## doyll

VBoOmeRanGV said:


> Not sure if I'm in the right place, but: I have the Thermaltake Core P3SE which is an open design with no fan placement other than liquid cooling stuff. I've used the AMD Wraith Spire and OC'd my CPU from 3.6 to 3.9 and the temps haven't changed. I just wanted to find a place to give credit, because there's a lot of bad info about AMD's new coolers. I am super impressed.


Thanks for the input. Everyone who has spoken out about Wraith Spire says is a good little cooler.



Astral85 said:


> Hi doyll.
> 
> What sort of configuration/rpm would you suggest for removing large amounts of air cooled GPU heat? I have a Corsair Obsidian 450D and 1080 Ti. I run an H110i top mounted exhaust, 2 x AF140's front intake, 1 x Noctua NF-F12 120mm as rear exhaust and a ML120 bottom mount pushing air up into the GPU.
> 
> Currently with a 20-24C ambient room temperature I am running the fans for gaming at: AF140's 1000rpm, H110i CPU (ML140's) 1000-1150rpm, NF-F12 (rear slot) 1250 rpm and bottom ML120 700 rpm.
> 
> Should I crank the NF-F12 even further to remove GPU waste heat or will I lose the balance between cool air coming in and hot air going out?


I'm glad you have a 20-24c room, but what are your full load CPU and GPU temps? 
Read 5th post this thread to get a basic idea of how to optimize case airflow.

A good air cooler is as good as H110 and costs about half as much .. but it's what you have. 

AF140 are almost worthless (0.5mm H2O, 39.88cfm @1100rpm). Replace them with better fans .. maybe switch them with the ML's on 110 to see how much of a difference they make. 

Your case will always flow the same amount of air in as it has flowing out / same mount out as in. That's simple physics.


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> I'm glad you have a 20-24c room, but what are your full load CPU and GPU temps?
> Read 5th post this thread to get a basic idea of how to optimize case airflow.
> 
> A good air cooler is as good as H110 and costs about half as much .. but it's what you have.
> 
> AF140 are almost worthless (0.5mm H2O, 39.88cfm @1100rpm). Replace them with better fans .. maybe switch them with the ML's on 110 to see how much of a difference they make.


I'm glad about the room temp too. I thank the air conditioning I have in here. In some of the hottest summer days this room could reach 30C or more without AC! We have about 1.5 months of summer left and right now it is extremely humid. 

In gaming my CPU cores will peak at 57-60C while averaging 47-50C. The 1080 Ti runs with a peak of 60C in just about all of my games. Some games will average 50C while others 57-60C. 

Right I am playing Mass Effect: Andromeda and this is the most load on the GPU I have seen a game present to the 1080 Ti yet. This one will run at 60-64C and is a challenge even for the AC. One day without the AC on I was reaching 68-70C, yikes! When the GPU is producing that much heat the H110i water temperature quickly rises, probably nothing unmanageable but a bit on the warm side. 

I have Noctua Redux NF-P14s that I originally run on the front. The AF140 were brought for top exhaust before I got the H110i. The Redux were replaced with brand new ones recently under warranty due to bearing ticking. I noticed that the new Redux were causing a harmonic type of hum, like a wonky bearing noise at certain rpm which I found annoying. I have switched between the Redux and AF140 about twice now and have come to some conclusion that the resonance/hum is present with both fans and is likely a combination of all of the case fans. Unwanted fan noise/hum is such a PITA...

Maybe I will put the Redux back on this weekend, the air flow and H2O are quite decent, probably a lot better than the AF140... I would like to get some of the new Corsair ML140 RGB but there is news now about the Corsair Obsidian 500D which is rumored to include either LL fans or ML-RGB. A new Obsidian case is something I am interested in so I will to see. 



doyll said:


> Your case will always flow the same amount of air in as it has flowing out / same mount out as in. That's simple physics.


If you have more exhaust fans than intake and/or they are running at faster speeds wouldn't that be more air out than in?


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> I'm glad about the room temp too. I thank the air conditioning I have in here. In some of the hottest summer days this room could reach 30C or more without AC! We have about 1.5 months of summer left and right now it is extremely humid.
> 
> In gaming my CPU cores will peak at 57-60C while averaging 47-50C. The 1080 Ti runs with a peak of 60C in just about all of my games. Some games will average 50C while others 57-60C.
> 
> Right I am playing Mass Effect: Andromeda and this is the most load on the GPU I have seen a game present to the 1080 Ti yet. This one will run at 60-64C and is a challenge even for the AC. One day without the AC on I was reaching 68-70C, yikes! When the GPU is producing that much heat the H110i water temperature quickly rises, probably nothing unmanageable but a bit on the warm side.
> 
> I have Noctua Redux NF-P14s that I originally run on the front. The AF140 were brought for top exhaust before I got the H110i. The Redux were replaced with brand new ones recently under warranty due to bearing ticking. I noticed that the new Redux were causing a harmonic type of hum, like a wonky bearing noise at certain rpm which I found annoying. I have switched between the Redux and AF140 about twice now and have come to some conclusion that the resonance/hum is present with both fans and is likely a combination of all of the case fans. Unwanted fan noise/hum is such a PITA...
> 
> Maybe I will put the Redux back on this weekend, the air flow and H2O are quite decent, probably a lot better than the AF140... I would like to get some of the new Corsair ML140 RGB but there is news now about the Corsair Obsidian 500D which is rumored to include either LL fans or ML-RGB. A new Obsidian case is something I am interested in so I will to see.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have more exhaust fans than intake and/or they are running at faster speeds wouldn't that be more air out than in?


Your temps are not bad, but without knowing the air temp going into cooler and radiator we don't know if you can improve them or not. 1st and 5th post of this thread show what I use and how to set it up. 

NF-P14 1200rpm and 1500rpm are not bad and should work okay as front intakes. the resonance problem might be solved by using the included anti-vibration mounts / rubber pull in mounts or spacing the fans a few 4-5mm away from vent grill. Some rubber screws do this.


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> Your temps are not bad, but without knowing the air temp going into cooler and radiator we don't know if you can improve them or not. 1st and 5th post of this thread show what I use and how to set it up.
> 
> NF-P14 1200rpm and 1500rpm are not bad and should work okay as front intakes. the resonance problem might be solved by using the included anti-vibration mounts / rubber pull in mounts or spacing the fans a few 4-5mm away from vent grill. Some rubber screws do this.


It appears that I don't even have an indoor thermometer, guess I will need to pick one up to get those air temps.. You talk about having more case fan flow that component air flow. When I run the 1080 Ti fans at 80% what is happening here? I am not sure if the EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3 pushesto t all of the heat to the rear of the card or whether it also expels from the side of the heatsink (badge side). Ultimately the GPU waste heat should rise to the upper half of the case where theoretically the rear 120mm should exhaust as much of that as possible...


----------



## Brightmist

Hot air doesn't really rise inside a case, it goes where you blow it.
Open air GPU coolers blow hot air everywhere and some of that do end up near CPU and do heat up CPU air coolers.
Back Exhaust might help but isn't that necessary if your front intakes can push enough air into the case and if back of the case is unrestricted(no unused PCI-E covers, I/O shield, properly grilled back etc.).
%80 RPM on FTW3 fans should be really noisy, akin to a jet engine


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> It appears that I don't even have an indoor thermometer, guess I will need to pick one up to get those air temps.. You talk about having more case fan flow that component air flow. When I run the 1080 Ti fans at 80% what is happening here? I am not sure if the EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3 pushesto t all of the heat to the rear of the card or whether it also expels from the side of the heatsink (badge side). Ultimately the GPU waste heat should rise to the upper half of the case where theoretically the rear 120mm should exhaust as much of that as possible...


Brightmist's post is exactly what |I would say. :thumb: Good front and possibly bottom intakes on most cases will flow plenty of air to meet CPU and GPU cooler needs and push their heated exhaust air back and out of case, especially with PCIe slot covers removed. 

You can find very resonably priced indoor/outdoor digital thermometers with wired remote sensor or just remote sensor digital thermometer like used for aquarium or refrigerator. Setup like in 2nd post this thread makes them easy to use and removes guess work. I like indoor/outdoor because then I can see room and component air temps at a glance and know what the difference is.


----------



## Astral85

I put my Noctua Redux back in as front intake. I sat my phone (temperature sensor) on top of the hdd cage directly behind the top Redux 140mm rotating at 1200 rpm. The fans are blowing an air temperature into the case of exactly the same as the room temperature sometimes 1C cooler. Yesterday the room temp was 21.7C and the Redux were blowing 20-21C. 

The bulk of the waste heat from the 1080 Ti comes out from the side of the heatsink (case side panel/badge side) It literally blows like a heater! That heat appears to rise into the upper area of the case around the CPU and H110i water block. I could not get an air temp reading in that area. 

With no load at idle motherboard temp is 23C. This rises to 28C under heavy gaming load. H110i water temperature at idle is 24.4C and rises to an average of 31.1/33.1 max under heavy gaming load. This probably give some idea of the heat in that area of the case. 

Surprisingly the fans on the EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3 at 80% are not crazy jet engine loud like GPU fans are known to be. When you first turn them up to 80% they appear loud but gradually it turns into a calming white noise effect. I think EVGA have done something good with these fans at high speed. I do have the air conditioning in the background that makes some noise.


----------



## gipsy

*airflow..Define R6*

Hi doyll hi all

Following your "Ways to Better Cooling" I did check my case temps with indoor/outdoor thermometer to see if airflow inside the case is optimal and got this results:

case intake temp is measured just behind intake fan inside the case
CPU cooler intake air temp is measured 1 cm in front of intake fan on Noctua DH 15 (facing case door)

i stress loaded my heavily overclocked comp with prime95 small blocks and furmark for graphic card

deltaT with prime95 only is 3 celsius
deltaT with prime95 and furmark is 6 celsius
deltaT when idle is 2 celsius

Now, question for you, when you did your testing did you measure delta temps with GPU on 100% to get thise golden delta T<3 celsius?
I am wondering if I can improve case airflow to lower those 6 Celsius delta T when graphic card is under heavy load.
All this with door closed on my case...when I open the front door deltaT goes down for 1-2 celsius, so i was wondering to put another fan on the bottom or try to put stronger fan on the exhaust.

Case is Fractal define R6
2x140 front intake fan-original
1x120 front intake fan noctua

1x120 bottom mounted

1x 140 rear exhaust original fan

noctua DH15 with 2x140 original fans

all controled for silence with define R6 original fan controller trough cpu pwm fan on motherboard

Thanks in advance
gipsy
Croatia


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> I put my Noctua Redux back in as front intake. I sat my phone (temperature sensor) on top of the hdd cage directly behind the top Redux 140mm rotating at 1200 rpm. The fans are blowing an air temperature into the case of exactly the same as the room temperature sometimes 1C cooler. Yesterday the room temp was 21.7C and the Redux were blowing 20-21C.
> 
> The bulk of the waste heat from the 1080 Ti comes out from the side of the heatsink (case side panel/badge side) It literally blows like a heater! That heat appears to rise into the upper area of the case around the CPU and H110i water block. I could not get an air temp reading in that area.
> 
> With no load at idle motherboard temp is 23C. This rises to 28C under heavy gaming load. H110i water temperature at idle is 24.4C and rises to an average of 31.1/33.1 max under heavy gaming load. This probably give some idea of the heat in that area of the case.
> 
> Surprisingly the fans on the EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3 at 80% are not crazy jet engine loud like GPU fans are known to be. When you first turn them up to 80% they appear loud but gradually it turns into a calming white noise effect. I think EVGA have done something good with these fans at high speed. I do have the air conditioning in the background that makes some noise.


Monitoring air temp directly behind intake fan is not helping. We need to know the air temp going into CPU cooler and GPU cooler .. directly in front of their intake fans. 





gipsy said:


> Hi doyll hi all
> 
> Following your "Ways to Better Cooling" I did check my case temps with indoor/outdoor thermometer to see if airflow inside the case is optimal and got this results:
> 
> case intake temp is measured just behind intake fan inside the case
> CPU cooler intake air temp is measured 1 cm in front of intake fan on Noctua DH 15 (facing case door)
> 
> i stress loaded my heavily overclocked comp with prime95 small blocks and furmark for graphic card
> 
> deltaT with prime95 only is 3 celsius
> deltaT with prime95 and furmark is 6 celsius
> deltaT when idle is 2 celsius
> 
> Now, question for you, when you did your testing did you measure delta temps with GPU on 100% to get thise golden delta T<3 celsius?
> I am wondering if I can improve case airflow to lower those 6 Celsius delta T when graphic card is under heavy load.
> All this with door closed on my case...when I open the front door deltaT goes down for 1-2 celsius, so i was wondering to put another fan on the bottom or try to put stronger fan on the exhaust.
> 
> Case is Fractal define R6
> 2x140 front intake fan-original
> 1x120 front intake fan noctua
> 
> 1x120 bottom mounted
> 
> 1x 140 rear exhaust original fan
> 
> noctua DH15 with 2x140 original fans
> 
> all controled for silence with define R6 original fan controller trough cpu pwm fan on motherboard
> 
> Thanks in advance


Thanks for posting here instead of in PM. :thumb:

CPU cooler intake temps are usually at or near room air temp when GPU is not working hard. It's when GPU is working hard and blowing heated exhaust air all over that CPU intake air warms up. All of my own testing is with both working and case fans speed controlled based on CPU & GPU temps. This way case fan speed cycles with cooler fan speed and supplies needed cool air. 

Define R6 included Dynamic X2 GP-14 are horribly incapable of supplying needed airflow. They are only rated 0.71mm H2O at full speed, and with small venting, filter and internal grill creating almost that much resistance they are only marginally able to supply a little airflow at full speed. Idle them down and they more almost no air. Changing them to a good fan with about 1.5mm H2O static pressure rating will make a huge difference. I usually use PWM fans and control, but that is not required. I usually use 3x 140mm fans in Define cases; 2x front and 1x bottom intakes. That is all the fans that are needed .. and remove all PCIe back slot covers to give more rear vent area around GPU for better front to back airflow and less heated air moving up around CPU cooler. I have no idea what fans are available there, so if you could give me a couple of links to places you can get fans from, I will try and give you a couple of suggestions.


----------



## gipsy

*airflow..Define R6*

Hi

Thanks for advice


I can get all Noctua locally or order from
https://www.caseking.de/en/aircooling/fans/by-size/140mm-pc-fans

I have spare 140mm fan from noctua nh-d14, NF-P14 which I can use as floor fan instead of 2x120 which I am testing right now.
Trying to post some pics but getting "file upload failed"??
Size is not a problem...nor format..jpgs cca.100kb each?

Appreciate any comments/suggestions

Best Regards


----------



## doyll

gipsy said:


> Hi
> 
> Thanks for advice
> 
> 
> I can get all Noctua locally or order from
> https://www.caseking.de/en/aircooling/fans/by-size/140mm-pc-fans
> 
> I have spare 140mm fan from noctua nh-d14, NF-P14 which I can use as floor fan instead of 2x120 which I am testing right now.
> Trying to post some pics but getting "file upload failed"??
> Size is not a problem...nor format..jpgs cca.100kb each?
> 
> Appreciate any comments/suggestions
> 
> Best Regards


Noctua NF-A14 is good, but basically same as Thermalright Ty-147A Sq or TY-143 Sq and Phanteks PH-F140MP, PH-F140XP or PH-F140SP fans that usually are lower priced. There are many other good fans too. Usually the lowest priced decent fan I know of are Arctic F14 series fans. Usually about 1/3 as expensive with about 90% as good performance and life.


----------



## gipsy

doyll said:


> Noctua NF-A14 is good, but basically same as Thermalright Ty-147A Sq or TY-143 Sq and Phanteks PH-F140MP, PH-F140XP or PH-F140SP fans that usually are lower priced. There are many other good fans too. Usually the lowest priced decent fan I know of are Arctic F14 series fans. Usually about 1/3 as expensive with about 90% as good performance and life.


After cheking some fans with higer pressure 3 fans stand out for me..
Phanteks PH-F140MP

Noiseblocker NB-eLoop Fan B14-3
Noiseblocker NB-eLoop Fan B14-PS

what I would like to have is as low as possible noise while idle eg. @ minimum rpm

Which of these fans are quietest at minimum rpm and how much louder those will be compering to Fractals original Dynamic X2 GP-14 from R6 at idle??

In my environment (at night), my actual setup is completely silent from where I sit when idle and I would like to keep it that way but with higer pressure fans...if possible.

Thanks


----------



## gipsy

*airflow..Define R6*



doyll said:


> Monitoring air temp directly behind intake fan is not helping. We need to know the air temp going into CPU cooler and GPU cooler .. directly in front of their intake fans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting here instead of in PM. :thumb:
> 
> CPU cooler intake temps are usually at or near room air temp when GPU is not working hard. It's when GPU is working hard and blowing heated exhaust air all over that CPU intake air warms up. All of my own testing is with both working and case fans speed controlled based on CPU & GPU temps. This way case fan speed cycles with cooler fan speed and supplies needed cool air.
> 
> Define R6 included Dynamic X2 GP-14 are horribly incapable of supplying needed airflow. They are only rated 0.71mm H2O at full speed, and with small venting, filter and internal grill creating almost that much resistance they are only marginally able to supply a little airflow at full speed. Idle them down and they more almost no air. Changing them to a good fan with about 1.5mm H2O static pressure rating will make a huge difference. I usually use PWM fans and control, but that is not required. I usually use 3x 140mm fans in Define cases; 2x front and 1x bottom intakes. That is all the fans that are needed .. and remove all PCIe back slot covers to give more rear vent area around GPU for better front to back airflow and less heated air moving up around CPU cooler. I have no idea what fans are available there, so if you could give me a couple of links to places you can get fans from, I will try and give you a couple of suggestions.




Hi doyll hi all

As per your advice I have replaced fractals original fans, all of them, with cheap ARTIC F14s.
2 in front, 1 at back and result is amazing!!:
DeltaT between intake temp and CPU cooler intake temp is:

1.5 Celsius door open
3.1 Celsius door closed
deltaT when idle is 0.3 Celsius

Now, about the noise...
when idle, light load, system is dead silent as it was before
full load is subjectively louder for some 20%
but
as fans are more powerful now, I do not need full speed on fans anymore and by slowing them down in fan expert I come to same noise and lower temps.

Effect on CPU temp under full load CPU and GPU is only -3 Celsius but as that temp already was very low that is quite some improvement!!

my system is:
[email protected], delided, liquid ultra, voltage 1.23
Noctua DH15

hottest core max temp before 70 Celsius
with new fans 67 Celsius
prime95 small FTT for CPU
furmark for GPU

If interested for some of you I have recheck TIM paste after 5 years and it was big bes there...after cleaning(sending-scraping old liquid ultra and reapplying temps went down 20 Celsius)

Thanks


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> Monitoring air temp directly behind intake fan is not helping. We need to know the air temp going into CPU cooler and GPU cooler .. directly in front of their intake fans.



Ok, I will get an indoor/outdoor thermometer and take some readings on the weekend.


----------



## gipsy

Hi doyll

I did some testing without exhaust fan and all slot masks removed and thing is system is working even better without it.
DeltaT when idle is 1 celsius
full load 3 celsius

cpu temp is 2 celsius lower!!

Thanks

gipsy


----------



## doyll

gipsy said:


> Hi doyll
> 
> I did some testing without exhaust fan and all slot masks removed and thing is system is working even better without it.
> DeltaT when idle is 1 celsius
> full load 3 celsius
> 
> cpu temp is 2 celsius lower!!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> gipsy


Good news! :thumb:

Is there any difference in noise level?


----------



## gipsy

doyll said:


> Good news! :thumb:
> 
> Is there any difference in noise level?


When idle noise is the same...non existing.
Under the load, noise is little bit lower as rear fan noise had its role in cumulative noise from all vents, anyway, when at full speed I can here all fans together and can say those are noisy.

Thing is, with this new setup, if I limit all my fans to 60% duty cycle there is no noise or very litle under the full load/stress while my CPU temp stay the same..69 Celsius max fo hotest core.

All in all, with your advice my system is now more silent, and more capable to cool PC if needed!!

Thanks


----------



## doyll

gipsy said:


> When idle noise is the same...non existing.
> Under the load, noise is little bit lower as rear fan noise had its role in cumulative noise from all vents, anyway, when at full speed I can here all fans together and can say those are noisy.
> 
> Thing is, with this new setup, if I limit all my fans to 60% duty cycle there is no noise or very litle under the full load/stress while my CPU temp stay the same..69 Celsius max fo hotest core.
> 
> All in all, with your advice my system is now more silent, and more capable to cool PC if needed!!
> 
> Thanks


That is what I suspected, but always like to verify. 5 or 10 of us getting the same results gives me a good amount of data to base my recommendations on.

In other words, it's people like you who give me feedback about how my suggestions work for them that give me the knowledge base to give the advice I give. :thumb:


----------



## gipsy

doyll said:


> That is what I suspected, but always like to verify. 5 or 10 of us getting the same results gives me a good amount of data to base my recommendations on.
> 
> In other words, it's people like you who give me feedback about how my suggestions work for them that give me the knowledge base to give the advice I give. :thumb:


That is cool.
Strange thing...I did not find that info(useless exhaust went with proper intake fans) anywhere else,and I did quite a lot reading on this metter!


----------



## doyll

gipsy said:


> That is cool.
> Strange thing...I did not find that info(useless exhaust went with proper intake fans) anywhere else,and I did quite a lot reading on this metter!


I know. There are a lot of people writing things about computer case airflow who have little or no understanding of what airflow is and even less of how it works. Airflow is no different than water flow. What goes into case must come out of case, so if intake fans are good fans (very few stock cases fans are any good), then these good case intake fans can easily move air all the way through the case. 

Another thing most people don't realize is how much resistance to airflow a simple metal case grill mesh creates .. or how much more resistance fancy front and top vent grills and grill mesh create. I often remove rear and bottom grill mesh and only use bottom filter with nothing or round wire grill on rear vent to lower airflow reistance and noise levels. 
More information here: 
http://www.overclock.net/forum/22657923-post15.html
And here: 
http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...g-airflow-cooler-fan-data-5.html#post23754692

You probably already figured it out, but 1st post of this thread is an index of different topics and what their post number is. If interested, it is a good list of basic guide to many things, like the differnence between Posi and Phillips screwdrivers; case bottom spacing and it's effect on bottom vent airflow (applies to all fan front and back clearance); fan bearings; P-Q curves and airflow vs pressure ratings; cooler sizes; cooler performance; etc.

There are some things in this thread not organized in the list, but I think most of the important things are there.


----------



## AshBorer

What is better: two 140mm fans, or three 120mm fans (for front intake)? Doyll i saw your post #1158 (pg 116) briefly mention that both setups will move the same amount of air. What about noise? I gotta think the two 140s would most certainly be quieter, right?


----------



## doyll

AshBorer said:


> What is better: two 140mm fans, or three 120mm fans (for front intake)? Doyll i saw your post #1158 (pg 116) briefly mention that both setups will move the same amount of air. What about noise? I gotta think the two 140s would most certainly be quieter, right?


140mm fans generally run at lower rpm delivering same amount of air.
PH-F140SP is 82.1cfm at 1200rpm and 19dB = 164.2cfm at 22dB for 2x 140mm fans
PH-F120SP is 54.4cfm at 1300rpm and 24.2dB = 162 cfm at 29dB for 3x 120mm fans
Simlar airflow but 140mm fans are quieter.


----------



## Astral85

Interesting question. Would an SSD that is mounted directly behind the motherboard near the CPU increase temperature in that area? My SSD reaches temperatures of 37-39C...


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> Interesting question. Would an SSD that is mounted directly behind the motherboard near the CPU increase temperature in that area? My SSD reaches temperatures of 37-39C...


Warmer mounted behind motherboard will depend on case and what airflow there is behind motherboard. 

Samsung data sheets say operating from 0°C to 70°C. Non-operating -45 C to 85 C, so 37-39c is fine.


----------



## gipsy

doyll said:


> I know. There are a lot of people writing things about computer case airflow who have little or no understanding of what airflow is and even less of how it works. Airflow is no different than water flow. What goes into case must come out of case, so if intake fans are good fans (very few stock cases fans are any good), then these good case intake fans can easily move air all the way through the case.
> 
> Another thing most people don't realize is how much resistance to airflow a simple metal case grill mesh creates .. or how much more resistance fancy front and top vent grills and grill mesh create. I often remove rear and bottom grill mesh and only use bottom filter with nothing or round wire grill on rear vent to lower airflow reistance and noise levels.
> More information here:
> http://www.overclock.net/forum/22657923-post15.html
> And here:
> http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-...g-airflow-cooler-fan-data-5.html#post23754692
> 
> You probably already figured it out, but 1st post of this thread is an index of different topics and what their post number is. If interested, it is a good list of basic guide to many things, like the differnence between Posi and Phillips screwdrivers; case bottom spacing and it's effect on bottom vent airflow (applies to all fan front and back clearance); fan bearings; P-Q curves and airflow vs pressure ratings; cooler sizes; cooler performance; etc.
> 
> There are some things in this thread not organized in the list, but I think most of the important things are there.


Hi doyll again

Maybe you can help

As it was confirmed, as you told me, that Fractals R6 fans are insufficient for this case(resistance from filter, gril and door is tooooo big, I was testing some fans with higher static pressure as front intake fans to see the difference;
At the moment best combination is Artcic F14s as I can not here them when idle and all temps and flow is OK.
Thing is, as soon as I open the door all temps goes down for in average 3 Celsius and airflow trough the case increases dramaticly.
Now I was in search for higer static pressure fans to overcome resistance but want to keep it dead quite when idle.
I tested 2x Noctua 1500rpm fans that comes with DH15 as intake fans but even when idle cca(380rpm) I can hear them.

Now I would like to know if there is any other fan that has higher static pressure but being silent on minimum revs?

When I am checking fans specs i can find noise to pressure ratio but only on max revs!

Is there a way to calculate static pressure on minimum revs for fans from factory specifications?

I was thinking maybe EK Vardars my be silent with higher static pressure in 300-500 revs range?

Opinion??

Thanks


----------



## ciarlatano

gipsy said:


> Hi doyll again
> 
> Maybe you can help
> 
> As it was confirmed, as you told me, that Fractals R6 fans are insufficient for this case(resistance from filter, gril and door is tooooo big, I was testing some fans with higher static pressure as front intake fans to see the difference;
> At the moment best combination is Artcic F14s as I can not here them when idle and all temps and flow is OK.
> Thing is, as soon as I open the door all temps goes down for in average 3 Celsius and airflow trough the case increases dramaticly.
> Now I was in search for higer static pressure fans to overcome resistance but want to keep it dead quite when idle.
> I tested 2x Noctua 1500rpm fans that comes with DH15 as intake fans but even when idle cca(380rpm) I can hear them.
> 
> Now I would like to know if there is any other fan that has higher static pressure but being silent on minimum revs?
> 
> When I am checking fans specs i can find noise to pressure ratio but only on max revs!
> 
> Is there a way to calculate static pressure on minimum revs for fans from factory specifications?
> 
> I was thinking maybe EK Vardars my be silent with higher static pressure in 300-500 revs range?
> 
> Opinion??
> 
> Thanks


While I'm not @doyll, I've done a fair bit of fan testing. The be quiet SW3 would be a solid choice based on what you are looking for. Very quiet at low speeds, good static pressure and airflow. They are also exceedingly quiet at higher speeds.

The Phanteks 140SP and MP also fit the bill at low speeds, but do get a bit noisy when they ramp up when compared to the BQ or Noctua.


----------



## ciarlatano

gipsy said:


> Hi doyll again
> 
> Maybe you can help
> 
> As it was confirmed, as you told me, that Fractals R6 fans are insufficient for this case(resistance from filter, gril and door is tooooo big, I was testing some fans with higher static pressure as front intake fans to see the difference;
> At the moment best combination is Artcic F14s as I can not here them when idle and all temps and flow is OK.
> Thing is, as soon as I open the door all temps goes down for in average 3 Celsius and airflow trough the case increases dramaticly.
> Now I was in search for higer static pressure fans to overcome resistance but want to keep it dead quite when idle.
> I tested 2x Noctua 1500rpm fans that comes with DH15 as intake fans but even when idle cca(380rpm) I can hear them.
> 
> Now I would like to know if there is any other fan that has higher static pressure but being silent on minimum revs?
> 
> When I am checking fans specs i can find noise to pressure ratio but only on max revs!
> 
> Is there a way to calculate static pressure on minimum revs for fans from factory specifications?
> 
> I was thinking maybe EK Vardars my be silent with higher static pressure in 300-500 revs range?
> 
> Opinion??
> 
> Thanks


While I'm not @doyll, I've done a fair bit of fan testing. The be quiet SW3 would be a solid choice based on what you are looking for. Very quiet at low speeds, good static pressure and airflow. They are also exceedingly quiet at higher speeds.

The Phanteks 140SP and MP also fit the bill at low speeds, but do get a bit noisy when they ramp up when compared to the BQ or Noctua.


----------



## doyll

gipsy said:


> Hi doyll again
> 
> Maybe you can help
> 
> As it was confirmed, as you told me, that Fractals R6 fans are insufficient for this case(resistance from filter, gril and door is tooooo big, I was testing some fans with higher static pressure as front intake fans to see the difference;
> At the moment best combination is Artcic F14s as I can not here them when idle and all temps and flow is OK.
> Thing is, as soon as I open the door all temps goes down for in average 3 Celsius and airflow trough the case increases dramaticly.
> Now I was in search for higer static pressure fans to overcome resistance but want to keep it dead quite when idle.
> I tested 2x Noctua 1500rpm fans that comes with DH15 as intake fans but even when idle cca(380rpm) I can hear them.
> 
> Now I would like to know if there is any other fan that has higher static pressure but being silent on minimum revs?
> 
> When I am checking fans specs i can find noise to pressure ratio but only on max revs!
> 
> Is there a way to calculate static pressure on minimum revs for fans from factory specifications?
> 
> I was thinking maybe EK Vardars my be silent with higher static pressure in 300-500 revs range?
> 
> Opinion??
> 
> Thanks


What ciarlatano said. :thumb:

You have tried NF-A15 as front intake and didn't like their noise, and they are top tier and quite good fans. Keeping things silent and getting more airflow is not easy in your R6 because of the limited venting in front. 

I don't think the performance difference in Define R6 between Arctic F14 and be quiet! Silent Wings 3 would be significant .. something like 1-2c lower temps and nicer sound profile from fans as speeds increase, but not much lower sound pressure level. But is it worth spending an additional € 50-75 for 3x SW3 to get 1-2c lower temps? If I understand correctly your CPU and GPU under full load are below 70c with no noise. With the R6 I doubt you will get signifcantly better temps with other fans and still have no noise. 

I would try adding a bottom intake for more airflow, and raise the case up with some 20-30mm blocks / under the case feet for better airflow to bottom. 

I would try removing the grill in front of front fans inside of door and see if that helps. 

I would try using the top vent and see if it helps. 

You could cut case grills out for better and quieter airflow .. assuming you have the proper tools and skills.


----------



## gipsy

doyll said:


> What ciarlatano said. :thumb:
> 
> You have tried NF-A15 as front intake and didn't like their noise, and they are top tier and quite good fans. Keeping things silent and getting more airflow is not easy in your R6 because of the limited venting in front.
> 
> I don't think the performance difference in Define R6 between Arctic F14 and be quiet! Silent Wings 3 would be significant .. something like 1-2c lower temps and nicer sound profile from fans as speeds increase, but not much lower sound pressure level. But is it worth spending an additional € 50-75 for 3x SW3 to get 1-2c lower temps? If I understand correctly your CPU and GPU under full load are below 70c with no noise. With the R6 I doubt you will get signifcantly better temps with other fans and still have no noise.
> 
> 
> I would try adding a bottom intake for more airflow, and raise the case up with some 20-30mm blocks / under the case feet for better airflow to bottom.
> 
> I would try removing the grill in front of front fans inside of door and see if that helps.
> 
> I would try using the top vent and see if it helps.
> 
> You could cut case grills out for better and quieter airflow .. assuming you have the proper tools and skills.



"You have tried NF-A15 as front intake and didn't like their noise, and they are top tier and quite good fans. Keeping things silent and getting more airflow is not easy in your R6 because of the limited venting in front."

Just below that NF-A15 sits my NF-P14 from my old Noctua DH 14 and I can not hear it.(all that on minimum revs...cca 350)
NF-A-15 or mix of two just dont work. I have tried all combination with F14's(have 3 of those) , 2x NF-A15, 1x NF-P14, 2x NF-P12 and Fractals 3xDynamic X2 GP-14 .
It is not easy!! as soon as I open the door air flow increases dramatically but I would like to come to that effect as close as possible.

"I don't think the performance difference in Define R6 between Arctic F14 and be quiet! Silent Wings 3 would be significant .. something like 1-2c lower temps and nicer sound profile from fans as speeds increase, but not much lower sound pressure level. But is it worth spending an additional € 50-75 for 3x SW3 to get 1-2c lower temps? If I understand correctly your CPU and GPU under full load are below 70c with no noise. With the R6 I doubt you will get signifcantly better temps with other fans and still have no noise"

I agree, that is for sure, what interested me is if is any fan existed to have greater static pressure on 300-500 rev while not being any noisier than NF-P14 or F14 on same revs to overcome filter and grill resistance better than those two?


"I would try adding a bottom intake for more airflow, and raise the case up with some 20-30mm blocks / under the case feet for better airflow to bottom. "

Did read your post all along, raised the case, but as I already have 2x140 F14 mounted on floor there where no real help.


"I would try removing the grill in front of front fans inside of door and see if that helps. "
This helps the most, airflow inside the case raises dramatically (measured with feather on back of the case which does really shows air flow on small openings)

"I would try using the top vent and see if it helps"
Top vent is NO go.

"You could cut case grills out for better and quieter airflow .. assuming you have the proper tools and skills."

My dremel is crying for that...I even have nice 5" grill from car audio speaker in black ready to be mounted on door...just have no hearth to do it on new case...;-)

Look there is no real problem here...it is just my curiosity if it is possible to improve it anymore.
Case is performing flawlessly...if I set all my fans to max on 50% duty cycle and 100% there is no difference in max temp(68 higest core) on CPU ([email protected])

Setup for that is:
Front
NF-P12 at the bottom
NF-P14 in the midlle
F14 on modified top

floor:
2 x F14

CPU DH-15 with two NF-A15

rear
NO fan

slot covers removed

attached some images from progress...weather probe visible on 6.jpg

Sill, there is no answer if it is possible to calculate static pressure at low revs from fan specifications where only static pressure at max revs is specified???

Thanks


----------



## leops1984

doyll said:


> Define R6 included Dynamic X2 GP-14 are horribly incapable of supplying needed airflow. They are only rated 0.71mm H2O at full speed, and with small venting, filter and internal grill creating almost that much resistance they are only marginally able to supply a little airflow at full speed. Idle them down and they more almost no air. Changing them to a good fan with about 1.5mm H2O static pressure rating will make a huge difference. I usually use PWM fans and control, but that is not required. I usually use 3x 140mm fans in Define cases; 2x front and 1x bottom intakes. That is all the fans that are needed .. and remove all PCIe back slot covers to give more rear vent area around GPU for better front to back airflow and less heated air moving up around CPU cooler. I have no idea what fans are available there, so if you could give me a couple of links to places you can get fans from, I will try and give you a couple of suggestions.


This basically locks me down to a Phanteks case if I do rebuild my system - especially since, for some reason, the R6 is marked up locally so that it and the Evolv ATX TG are about the same price. I don't want to have to spend that kind of money and have to spend even more to replace fans.


----------



## gipsy

leops1984 said:


> This basically locks me down to a Phanteks case if I do rebuild my system - especially since, for some reason, the R6 is marked up locally so that it and the Evolv ATX TG are about the same price. I don't want to have to spend that kind of money and have to spend even more to replace fans.


Make no mistake...all that upgrades, tweaking and else I do is just pursuit for perfection or madness as my wife say....fetish for fans!
Case is amazing and even if I did not change a thing it was dead silent when idle/ light load with temps in 50's...full load73 for overclocked processor with door closed.
If I just open the door temps go down 3-5 celsius and that is what gave me a push to try.

Problem with case is that it has soooo many possibilities for mounting fans, disks etc that is pity to let it seat like that alone.


----------



## doyll

Yeah, I know what you mean about experimenting just for the fun of it. I sometimes spend weeks making changes in fans and fan speed to see how it effects things. Once cooler intake is down to 5-6c above room, every degree lower gets progressively harder to to get. Sometimes things we think would not help will give us gains we were not expecting. Sorry, but I don't know what else to suggest.


----------



## doyll

doyll said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean about experimenting just for the fun of it. I sometimes spend weeks making changes in fans and fan speed to see how it effects things. Once cooler intake is down to 5-6c above room, every degree lower gets progressively harder to to get. Sometimes things we think would not help will give us gains we were not expecting. Sorry, but I don't know what else to suggest.


Maybe see if you can find an older Define like R5 or maybe even R4. I think R5 was 1st one to have full length bottom filter sliding out the front, but older ones are still good cases. I'm still using a really old R1 for one of my systems.


----------



## gipsy

doyll said:


> Maybe see if you can find an older Define like R5 or maybe even R4. I think R5 was 1st one to have full length bottom filter sliding out the front, but older ones are still good cases. I'm still using a really old R1 for one of my systems.


I came here from Antec p180, some 10 years old, modified in semi open design with no grill either front or back, and while R6 is way more modular and modern, final result is same temps but in closed form with R6.

Big difference is appearance and DUST.
As my Antec was open design dust was collecting in such volumes that I was taking it in front of my house and blow with 6bar compressed air to clean it.
As I was doing it, huge cloud of dust was blown down the street...heheh.
Now, with R6 filtering system I expect 4 time more for same cloud..


----------



## doyll

gipsy said:


> I came here from Antec p180, some 10 years old, modified in semi open design with no grill either front or back, and while R6 is way more modular and modern, final result is same temps but in closed form with R6.
> 
> Big difference is appearance and DUST.
> As my Antec was open design dust was collecting in such volumes that I was taking it in front of my house and blow with 6bar compressed air to clean it.
> As I was doing it, huge cloud of dust was blown down the street...heheh.
> Now, with R6 filtering system I expect 4 time more for same cloud..


Sorry about that. That post was a reply to leops, but somehow ended being to myself. 
My old Define R1 is heavily modified because it originally used 120mm front intakes so had to change front vents to fit 140mm fans, removed all front, bottom and back grills changing front front filters to Silverstone ones .. and it sets on open frame caster base using 40mm casters so has more than twice the airflow area to bottom vents.





leops1984 said:


> This basically locks me down to a Phanteks case if I do rebuild my system - especially since, for some reason, the R6 is marked up locally so that it and the Evolv ATX TG are about the same price. I don't want to have to spend that kind of money and have to spend even more to replace fans.


Maybe see if you can find an older Define like R5 or maybe even R4. I think R5 was 1st one to have full length bottom filter sliding out the front, but older ones are still good cases. I'm still using a really old R1 for one of my systems.


----------



## specialedge

does anyone have experience with a cooler such as noctua c14s, successfully contributing to VRM cooling using fans pushing air downward towards the motherboard? I have 2x noctua 14cm grey redux fans doing that, but my gigabyte 990fxa u3 vrms are sizzling around 100c at my current overclock. Is my intuition sound in the downward push pull air movement? 

The next question is: will reversing the orientation of the fans help or hurt, drawing air away from the motherboard? The main reason I question whether there is a chance, is that I am using coolermaster haf 932 full tower chassis, where there could be a better chance at a case-wide airflow solution pulling away rather than pushing towards. 

The only fans I have currently are the stock 200mm coolermaster intake fan on the case front and two 120mm corsair high sp fans exhausting at the top. I know these sp fans are ill suited for this project unless I flip them for use as intake, as they will then be pulling thru the case mesh and a filter, but their exhaust rigt now is quite warm. The alternative here is to intake thru the top onto the board, the c14s push air against the side panel drafting away from board, and then exhausting thru the side panel. 

Any input* before I dissect the system lol?


----------



## doyll

specialedge said:


> does anyone have experience with a cooler such as noctua c14s, successfully contributing to VRM cooling using fans pushing air downward towards the motherboard? I have 2x noctua 14cm grey redux fans doing that, but my gigabyte 990fxa u3 vrms are sizzling around 100c at my current overclock. Is my intuition sound in the downward push pull air movement?
> 
> The next question is: will reversing the orientation of the fans help or hurt, drawing air away from the motherboard? The main reason I question whether there is a chance, is that I am using coolermaster haf 932 full tower chassis, where there could be a better chance at a case-wide airflow solution pulling away rather than pushing towards.
> 
> The only fans I have currently are the stock 200mm coolermaster intake fan on the case front and two 120mm corsair high sp fans exhausting at the top. I know these sp fans are ill suited for this project unless I flip them for use as intake, as they will then be pulling thru the case mesh and a filter, but their exhaust rigt now is quite warm. The alternative here is to intake thru the top onto the board, the c14s push air against the side panel drafting away from board, and then exhausting thru the side panel.
> 
> Any input* before I dissect the system lol?


100c VRM temps is not just extreme but crazy. 
Are you running extreme voltage to get your overclock? 
Or is case airflow extremely poor and case air is extremely hot? 
5th post in 'Ways to Better Cooling' linked in my sig is a basic tutorial on case airflow and how to optimize it. 2nd post is what I use to monitor case air temp into coolers, over VRMs, etc. 

Are you using NH-C14S?
What RAM do you have?

What you want is to have good smooth airflow through your case from intake vents to exhaust vents
While pushing air down will improve cooling of motherboard components it will likely disrupt case's front to back airflow .. and those big fans in your HAF 932 are not the best either. Problem is it isn't easy to to replace them with good fans.


----------



## specialedge

This link will show three pictures of what I?m using for intake (front 200mm) and exhaust (2x 120mm status pressure):

https://imgur.com/gallery/7vZTq


----------



## doyll

specialedge said:


> This link will show three pictures of what I?m using for intake (front 200mm) and exhaust (2x 120mm status pressure):
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/7vZTq


Both GPU and CPU coolers are dumping heated air everywhere, no cable management, and only the 200mm front intake to supply cool air is a recipe for hot components. 

As a starting point I suggest you read 5th post in this thread.


----------



## hout17

doyll said:


> Both GPU and CPU coolers are dumping heated air everywhere, no cable management, and only the 200mm front intake to supply cool air is a recipe for hot components.
> 
> As a starting point I suggest you read 5th post in this thread.


I agree but one thing I disagree with is cable management really isn't that bad. Maybe by today's pretty boy standards but all in all it's not bad.


----------



## doyll

hout17 said:


> I agree but one thing I disagree with is cable management really isn't that bad. Maybe by today's pretty boy standards but all in all it's not bad.


I guess saying it's bad cable management is a stretch, but only because there is no management involved. 

Bit of trivia about disruption of airflow, look at how snow drifts when smooth airflow is disrupted by a bush with nothing but limbs or a clump of grass, or how snow fences and wind breaks collect snow on their downwind side. 



> Windbreak = narrow strips of trees, shrubs, and/or grasses planted to protect fields, homes, canals, and other areas from the wind and blowing sand.


 From: Encyclopedia of Soils in the Environment, 2005 ...

This is the reason stubble is ls left in fields over the winter before tilling and planting in the spring .. because the stubble disrupts the smooth flow of wind by causing turbulence[ and lowering wind speed allows the snow to settle on the ground, thus increasing moisture in the soil for spring crops.


----------



## deskiller

I came here looking at cooling systems. but learned about wind and soil for crop growning....

 

anyway.. 

I need a angled usb header cable for my front usb ports. because the front usb cable for my hafx plugs right infront of my noctua d15 cooler fan......


----------



## doyll

deskiller said:


> I came here looking at cooling systems. but learned about wind and soil for crop growning....
> 
> 
> 
> anyway..
> 
> I need a angled usb header cable for my front usb ports. because the front usb cable for my hafx plugs right infront of my noctua d15 cooler fan......


I guess you don't see how using analogies of how cables in a case disrupting airflow is similar to other airflow in our world is appropriate. Sorry, I can't help you with your USB problem.


----------



## Gilles3000

deskiller said:


> I need a angled usb header cable for my front usb ports. because the front usb cable for my hafx plugs right infront of my noctua d15 cooler fan......


You're taking about the internal USB3 cable right?

in that case either of these should solve your issue:
https://www.moddiy.com/products/USB...er-Adapter-Cable-(Low-Profile-Connector).html
https://www.moddiy.com/products/90-...-20%2dPin-Internal-Header-Mini-Connector.html


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> You're taking about the internal USB3 cable right?
> 
> in that case either of these should solve your issue:
> https://www.moddiy.com/products/USB...er-Adapter-Cable-(Low-Profile-Connector).html
> https://www.moddiy.com/products/90-...-20%2dPin-Internal-Header-Mini-Connector.html


Thanks for posting those links :thumb:
I had not seen them before.


----------



## specialedge

doyll said:


> I guess you don't see how using analogies of how cables in a case disrupting airflow is similar to other airflow in our world is appropriate. Sorry, I can't help you with your USB problem.



Doyll I cherish this thread and have come quite a long way since I began following it back in October, but I think you're being unnecessarily defensive. You don't want to let minute bickering and quibbling get in the way and undermine what would otherwise be a wealth of primary resources and probably the definitive authority of desktop air cooling discussion available on the net. 

I am pretty sure you've misinterpreted deskiller's comment in order to pick a fight.

That aside, you don't think with the haf 932 case's mesh the heat would be passively dissipated? It would be intuitive for an exhaust fan venting heat away from the cpu area right at the back position, but I am wary of negative pressure setup. 

Im wondering whether i should move my PSU from bottom to the top and take an approach of intake thru the bottom, exhaust straight out the top. I wonder if anyone has a similar case/cpu cooler setup that could advise me? Otherwise maybe its time to cycle my cpu coolers. There is an h100i or an nh-d15 which could fit better in this massive case. VRMS...... another story....


----------



## doyll

specialedge said:


> Doyll I cherish this thread and have come quite a long way since I began following it back in October, but I think you're being unnecessarily defensive. You don't want to let minute bickering and quibbling get in the way and undermine what would otherwise be a wealth of primary resources and probably the definitive authority of desktop air cooling discussion available on the net.
> 
> I am pretty sure you've misinterpreted deskiller's comment in order to pick a fight.
> 
> That aside, you don't think with the haf 932 case's mesh the heat would be passively dissipated? It would be intuitive for an exhaust fan venting heat away from the cpu area right at the back position, but I am wary of negative pressure setup.
> 
> Im wondering whether i should move my PSU from bottom to the top and take an approach of intake thru the bottom, exhaust straight out the top. I wonder if anyone has a similar case/cpu cooler setup that could advise me? Otherwise maybe its time to cycle my cpu coolers. There is an h100i or an nh-d15 which could fit better in this massive case. VRMS...... another story....


You rant at me about my short possibly borderline defensive reply to deskiller is way more disrespectful and offensive. 

Then you ask my input? :doh: 
You are lucky I'm not what you accuse me of being. 

Passive heat dissipation is more myth than reality .. assuming you are thinking air being warmed insdie of case will rise. Even the weakest fan will overpower warmed air rising inside of our cases. 

SilverStone is famous for their 90 degree rotated motherboard design .. they even patented on it. 

But without using a vertical GPU mount or turning the motherboard the heat coming off of GPU cooler heated exhaust would move up into CPU cooler .. or CPU cooler heated exhaust would move up into GPU cooler.

The problem isn't so much the idea of heated air rising as it is a problem of GPU cooler dumping heat air in all directions, and some of that heated air mixing into cool airflow to CPU. We used to fight the same problem with pancake / downflow coolers before tower coolers became popular. 

Using something like H100 rather than D15 (there are many others just as cool and quiet at lower cost) is to put it simply not an educated / informed decision.  I won't go into the many negatives of CLCs because it's been done many time here and even in it's own threads .. and common sense shows there are no positives for using CLCs.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> .. and common sense shows there are no positives for using CLCs.


but...but.....LEDs!!!!!!11!1!!~!


----------



## poah

specialedge said:


> There is an h100i or an nh-d15 which could fit better in this massive case. VRMS...... another story....



problem with using an AIO like the h100i is getting air to the VRM's, particularly on a B350 mobo, and the graphics card. I cool both my cpu & gpu with aio' with a fan blowing air directly onto my vrms. This means you sometimes have to add extra fans and you end up making more noise. The benefit of using an AIO is that you don't really have to worry about getting air to the cpu cooler while the air exiting the CPU rad isn't that much warmer than the air going in (assuming you vent in rather than out). AIO's other problem is the ****ty fans they supply with them although the cryorig fans are pretty good. 

noise is subjective as there are different types of noise - I'd not use noctua 140mm fans as they have an annoying motor whine while others are not bothered. my case is too small to fit pretty much all of the 140mm fan air coolers and 120mm ones were not cutting it.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> but...but.....LEDs!!!!!!11!1!!~!


I saw the light years ago .. long before LED were known of. Besides aren't LED lighti a conspiracy that stops us from complaining about what's happening around us.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> problem with using an AIO like the h100i is getting air to the VRM's, particularly on a B350 mobo, and the graphics card. I cool both my cpu & gpu with aio' with a fan blowing air directly onto my vrms. This means you sometimes have to add extra fans and you end up making more noise. The benefit of using an AIO is that you don't really have to worry about getting air to the cpu cooler while the air exiting the CPU rad isn't that much warmer than the air going in (assuming you vent in rather than out). AIO's other problem is the ****ty fans they supply with them although the cryorig fans are pretty good.
> 
> noise is subjective as there are different types of noise - I'd not use noctua 140mm fans as they have an annoying motor whine while others are not bothered. my case is too small to fit pretty much all of the 140mm fan air coolers and 120mm ones were not cutting it.


VRM cooling is only one of many negative aspects of CLCs. 

Sure it makes a cool air supply to CPU redundant, but everything around CPU need cool air flow, so it's not really a redundancy issue to start with. 

No idea what you are talking about claiming 140mm fans 'have annoying motor whine' or is that just the 140mm Noctua's you tried?

The quality of these aluminum CLC radiators is questionable at best, as is their extremely low 30-60 L/h flowrate. 

True, some cases will not fit bigger 140mm fanned coolers, but if it fits a 140mm rear exhaust it will usually fit a 140mm fanned cooler. While there are a few cases that do not support 140mm fanned coolers and case fans, there are so many good cases that do i'ts not really a problem to find a good case that checks all the boxes one might have including price. At least that's my opinion.


----------



## poah

doyll said:


> VRM cooling is only one of many negative aspects of CLCs.
> 
> Sure it makes a cool air supply to CPU redundant, but everything around CPU need cool air flow, so it's not really a redundancy issue to start with.
> 
> No idea what you are talking about claiming 140mm fans 'have annoying motor whine' or is that just the 140mm Noctua's you tried?
> 
> The quality of these aluminum CLC radiators is questionable at best, as is their extremely low 30-60 L/h flowrate.
> 
> True, some cases will not fit bigger 140mm fanned coolers, but if it fits a 140mm rear exhaust it will usually fit a 140mm fanned cooler. While there are a few cases that do not support 140mm fanned coolers and case fans, there are so many good cases that do i'ts not really a problem to find a good case that checks all the boxes one might have including price. At least that's my opinion.



noctua fans, don't like the motor noise. aluminium isn't an issue for heat dissipation (air coolers are alu) and flow rate isn't an issue, its a small radiator. its not like you have multiple rads off a single small pump. Not everybody wants a case that can fit 140mm fans at the rear. for example, I don't have space for a wide case.


----------



## ciarlatano

poah said:


> aluminium isn't an issue for heat dissipation (air coolers are alu) and flow rate isn't an issue, its a small radiator. its not like you have multiple rads off a single small pump.


Ummmmmmmm.......


----------



## Gilles3000




----------



## doyll

poah said:


> noctua fans, don't like the motor noise. aluminium isn't an issue for heat dissipation (air coolers are alu) and flow rate isn't an issue, its a small radiator. its not like you have multiple rads off a single small pump. Not everybody wants a case that can fit 140mm fans at the rear. for example, I don't have space for a wide case.


What ciarlatano and Gilles3000 posted. :thumb: 
I'm not all that crazy about noctua fans myself.

"air coolers are alu" is a gross oversimplification. most modern CPU air cooler are copper water filled vacuum tube heatpipes in copper and sometimes aluminum base with aluminum fins on the heatpipes. 

A good case need only be about 185mm wide with a minimum of about 165mm CPU clearance.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> What ciarlatano and Gilles3000 posted. :thumb:
> 
> "air coolers are alu" is a gross oversimplification. most modern CPU air cooler are copper water filled vacuum tube heatpipes in copper and sometimes aluminum base with aluminum fins on the heatpipes.


The part about rad size somehow determining effective flow rate is just as baffling to me as saying that materials of drastically different U and R-Values "isn't an issue for heat dissipation". I can't even figure out either of those statements could be conceived to make any sense at all. If we go by those two theories, a liquid cooler with a 10mm radiator made of wood pulp that flows no liquid would be equal to any top end loop, because material doesn't matter and small rads don't need flow.....and I think we can all agree that is not the case.


----------



## specialedge

Fallacy ad absurdum nobody is leaping to make that comparison


----------



## Gilles3000

poah said:


> sadly that's how it works here with ciarlatano. He can't comprehend the larger the radiator the greater the backpressure thus lower flow rates


Aside from a few exceptions, the difference in flow rate between 2 sizes of the same radiator model is almost negligible. Most radiators currently being sold in general tend to not cause any significant decrease in flow rate anyway.

This information isn't exactly hard to find either...


----------



## ciarlatano

poah said:


> sadly that's how it works here with ciarlatano. He can't comprehend the larger the radiator the greater the backpressure thus lower flow rates or that even though copper can transfer more heat, if that heat isn't there it doesn't matter that it can.


You are taking a very simplistic view and are blending facts and conditions into something that is completely incorrect. I am fully aware of how restriction affects flow rate (I can, and have, measured those kinds of things many times....using open loops will have that advantage - you get to learn how things actually work firsthand). Your belief that if a rad is smaller it has less restriction is merely an assumption, and is not accurate as shown in the chart below:










In some instances, radiators of like design will have _*less*_ restriction in larger sizes than small, and XSPC's designs are a great example of that (ref - https://martinsliquidlab.wordpress.com/pump-planning-guide/comment-page-1/):










Mind you, at no time does having less radiator space dictate that lower flow rates are ideal as you have stated.

This thread has been a wealth of on topic information and facts for three years. Please stop trying to drag it off topic and filling it with noise.


----------



## ciarlatano

specialedge said:


> Fallacy ad absurdum nobody is leaping to make that comparison


Of course it is, that was the point of it. It extends the incorrect information to a level of absurdity while remaining consistent with the statement in hopes of pointing out just how incorrect the statement was to begin with.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Of course it is, that was the point of it. It extends the incorrect information to a level of absurdity while remaining consistent with the statement in hopes of pointing out just how incorrect the statement was to begin with.


In all the years I ran custom loops I never had a problem with coolant flow rates through radiator. 

What I did find was some radiators cooled better than others, some water blocks transferred heat from CPU to coolant better than others and some pumps moved more coolant than others .. and if pump didn't have high enough flow rate the comoponents in loop could (and did) run hotter than if pump was moving coolant at a higher flow rate. 

Good radiators are very important, but so is good waterblock heat transfer and pumps coolant flow rate through waterblock. Coolant needs to be moving fast enough that coolant does not get too warm and limit the amount of heat waterblock can transfer away from component. 

To high a flow rate of coolant doesn't harm cooling, but too low a flow rate will definitely cause higher component temps .. not because radiator is not cooling coolant down, but because coolant in waterblock gets too warm. 

Crazy how a troll who complains about being stalked can bring a thread dedicated to air cooling and airflow in the air cooling forum down with totally unfounded, illogical and false arguments about aluminum radiators.


----------



## poah

ciarlatano said:


> You are taking a very simplistic view and are blending facts and conditions into something that is completely incorrect. I am fully aware of how restriction affects flow rate (I can, and have, measured those kinds of things many times....using open loops will have that advantage - you get to learn how things actually work firsthand). Your belief that if a rad is smaller it has less restriction is merely an assumption, and is not accurate as shown in the chart below:



it isn't simplistic. you have one rad and a pump you'll get X flow rate, add in another rad of the same model you will get less flow rate. not difficult to understand.


----------



## doyll

poah said:


> it isn't simplistic. you have one rad and a pump you'll get X flow rate, add in another rad of the same model you will get less flow rate. not difficult to understand.


Even though it is a correct statement it is grossly over simplistic.

Not all pumps have same performance ratings, so how much extra / unused flow rate and lift potential the pump has effects how well it will work with an additional radiator .. as well as the friction loss of radiator in use and being added are .. and hose and fitting friction loss as well.

All contribute to the final flow rate. 

What ciarlatano said. :thumb:


----------



## Aenra

doyll said:


> _common sense_ shows there are no positives for using CLCs


 *emphasis mine*

You make arguments like these, in a manner such as the one i'm quoting here (read: it's really 'my way' or you're dumb for disagreeing) and then wonder why people single you out... perplexing, honestly 

Now last time, on what was an opinion of mine (and one not directed at you, or even involving you), you interjected, proceeded to bringing it to a personal level, culminated with some generalizations to prove your 'facts' and, well; i wouldn't know after that, i skipped thread.
This time, i will do even better, i won't even state what i think or engage you in any manner. My word on that.

But i sincerely, honestly ask you to elaborate on what i'm quoting you here. Just expand on your thoughts if you please. And again, you've my word, zero response or comment from my end. Just your reply. 
Think scripta manent.

* Edit: You'd be excused for thinking this, so no, no grudge. My only agenda is transparency. Facts over beliefs if you will. I only just happened to see the thread now, so it's only now i get to comment; that's all.
/new guy


----------



## doyll

> *emphasis mine*
> 
> You make arguments like these, in a manner such as the one i'm quoting here (read: it's really 'my way' or you're dumb for disagreeing) and then wonder why people single you out... perplexing, honestly
> 
> Now last time, on what was an opinion of mine (and one not directed at you, or even involving you), you interjected, proceeded to bringing it to a personal level, culminated with some generalizations to prove your 'facts' and, well; i wouldn't know after that, i skipped thread.
> This time, i will do even better, i won't even state what i think or engage you in any manner. My word on that.
> 
> But i sincerely, honestly ask you to elaborate on what i'm quoting you here. Just expand on your thoughts if you please. And again, you've my word, zero response or comment from my end. Just your reply.
> Think scripta manent.
> 
> * Edit: You'd be excused for thinking this, so no, no grudge. My only agenda is transparency. Facts over beliefs if you will. I only just happened to see the thread now, so it's only now i get to comment; that's all.
> /new guy


Sorry, maybe you are sincerely trying to understand why air cooling is _common sense_ compared to using CLCs, but to me your post makes me very apprehensive. The paragraph you quoted part of gives a simple explanation of what my _common sense_ statement means.


> Using something like H100 rather than D15 (there are many others just as cool and quiet at lower cost) is to put it simply not an educated / informed decision. I won't go into the many negatives of CLCs because it's been done many time here and even in it's own threads .. and common sense shows there are no positives for using CLCs.


Here is a thread that gives lots of information:
*"Why you should probably not buy a CLC cooler"*
http://www.overclock.net/forum/61-w...y-you-should-probably-not-buy-clc-cooler.html


----------



## ciarlatano

Aenra said:


> *emphasis mine*
> 
> You make arguments like these, in a manner such as the one i'm quoting here (read: it's really 'my way' or you're dumb for disagreeing) and then wonder why people single you out... perplexing, honestly
> 
> Now last time, on what was an opinion of mine (and one not directed at you, or even involving you), you interjected, proceeded to bringing it to a personal level, culminated with some generalizations to prove your 'facts' and, well; i wouldn't know after that, i skipped thread.
> This time, i will do even better, i won't even state what i think or engage you in any manner. My word on that.
> 
> But i sincerely, honestly ask you to elaborate on what i'm quoting you here. Just expand on your thoughts if you please. And again, you've my word, zero response or comment from my end. Just your reply.
> Think scripta manent.
> 
> * Edit: You'd be excused for thinking this, so no, no grudge. My only agenda is transparency. Facts over beliefs if you will. I only just happened to see the thread now, so it's only now i get to comment; that's all.
> /new guy


Not going to lie.....I get why @doyll sometimes posts like this, and I am guilty of it a lot of times, also. @doyll has posted the answer to your question regarding his statement ad nauseum, and sometimes you forget that you are in a different thread, and that the people in this thread may not have seen the info in the many other threads it's been posted in. Good starting point to see his reasoning would be here - http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-air-cooling/1639571-cpu-cooling-2017-aio-vs-air-cooling.html . Getting that whole conversation into this thread would drag it way off topic.

Edit: @doyll beat me to it......


----------



## Aenra

ciarlatano said:


> Good starting point to see his reasoning would be here


Ah, i wasn't aware. Thanks for the pointer.

(and it isn't about the ways of expressing one's self, not per se; i can occasionally [already have in fact] be as bad, or worse.. it's about when, and why. I think it's a Japanese saying? You've got the people that know they know, the people that know they don't know, and the people that don't even know they do not know. Guess which of these three categories tends to most vigorously defend its arguments)

Anyway, my thanks once again and indeed, apologies for what may well be considered off topic, not the intention to derail. As to the actual topic of my question, well, again, scripta manent


----------



## ciarlatano

Aenra said:


> Ah, i wasn't aware. Thanks for the pointer.
> 
> (and it isn't about the ways of expressing one's self, not per se; i can occasionally [already have in fact] be as bad, or worse.. it's about when, and why. I think it's a Japanese saying? You've got the people that know they know, the people that know they don't know, and the people that don't even know they do not know. Guess which of these three categories tends to most vigorously defend its arguments)


No need to guess....we have it in black and white.


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> Monitoring air temp directly behind intake fan is not helping. We need to know the air temp going into CPU cooler and GPU cooler .. directly in front of their intake fans.


Reviving some older discussion... I was going out to buy an indoor/outdoor thermometer but decided to buy an Asus Maximus X Hero instead  I just received some thermal sensor cables today (10K). I have the sensor sitting just below the H110i (top mounted exhaust) If you can't picture that, it sits just above the CPU.. Room temp is currently 22.7C and the sensor reading is 25-26C. Does this tell us anything?


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> Reviving some older discussion... I was going out to buy an indoor/outdoor thermometer but decided to buy an Asus Maximus X Hero instead  I just received some thermal sensor cables today (10K). I have the sensor sitting just below the H110i (top mounted exhaust) If you can't picture that, it sits just above the CPU.. Room temp is currently 22.7C and the sensor reading is 25-26C. Does this tell us anything?


Much more expensive way of monitoring air temps, but works as well. :thumb: Are you using it's sensors to monitor both room and component cooler intake air temp?

It tells us the air is warming up 2.3-3.3c near or inside of case. 

Is that with system idle or at full load on GPU or GPU and CPU? Assuming GPU is air cooled the key is what it's intake air temp is and how much it's heated exhaust raises air temp into itself and your radiator. 

Thing is air temp into a air cooler has about 1:1 change between it's intake air temp and component temp under heavy load. A radiator is typically less than 1:1 .. air temp can rise more with less effect on component temp.


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> Much more expensive way of monitoring air temps, but works as well. :thumb: Are you using it's sensors to monitor both room and component cooler intake air temp?
> 
> It tells us the air is warming up 2.3-3.3c near or inside of case.
> 
> Is that with system idle or at full load on GPU or GPU and CPU? Assuming GPU is air cooled the key is what it's intake air temp is and how much it's heated exhaust raises air temp into itself and your radiator.
> 
> Thing is air temp into a air cooler has about 1:1 change between it's intake air temp and component temp under heavy load. A radiator is typically less than 1:1 .. air temp can rise more with less effect on component temp.


Yeah I know! Had been planning it a little while, very happy with the board so far. 

Those temps are system idle. After gaming last night the thermal probe peaked at 29C and probably averaged 27-29C. This is still with the probe just above the CPU under the H110i top mount radiator. So that area the probe is in is 2-3C less than the actual radiator/coolant itself. 

GPU is air cooled but I have not measured it's air intake temp yet. Nevertheless with the GPU under moderate load the result is the above temps. That would indicate there is a 4-5C increase in case temperature under load which is probably a combination of GPU and CPU heat, correct? Wow maybe that NF-F12 above the GPU in rear slot is sucking the bulk of GPU waste heat out...


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> Yeah I know! Had been planning it a little while, very happy with the board so far.
> 
> Those temps are system idle. After gaming last night the thermal probe peaked at 29C and probably averaged 27-29C. This is still with the probe just above the CPU under the H110i top mount radiator. So that area the probe is in is 2-3C less than the actual radiator/coolant itself.
> 
> GPU is air cooled but I have not measured it's air intake temp yet. Nevertheless with the GPU under moderate load the result is the above temps. That would indicate there is a 4-5C increase in case temperature under load which is probably a combination of GPU and CPU heat, correct? Wow maybe that NF-F12 above the GPU in rear slot is sucking the bulk of GPU waste heat out...


I don't think the H110 pump/waterblock and hose radiates much heat into surrounding airflow. I think the air temp rise is from GPU heated exhaust. I would expect coolant to be 35-40c between CPU and radiator with lower temp going back to CPU from radiator. 

I haven't used Asus motherboard in years, but assume they are still good. Most all top tier motherboards are, and yours is top tier.


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> I don't think the H110 pump/waterblock and hose radiates much heat into surrounding airflow. I think the air temp rise is from GPU heated exhaust. I would expect coolant to be 35-40c between CPU and radiator with lower temp going back to CPU from radiator.
> 
> I haven't used Asus motherboard in years, but assume they are still good. Most all top tier motherboards are, and yours is top tier.


I would say it's the GPU heat as well. Coolant doesn't run that high, more 30-35C max. So would you say this flow is running optimally? I think it's probably the best I'll do.. The 1080 Ti throws out a lot of warm air and it's really up to the rear exhaust fan to pull that out..

The Maximus X Hero is very solid and it's one of the better ones I've owned. Overclocks the 8700K like nobody's business. What motherboard's do you currently use?


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> I would say it's the GPU heat as well. Coolant doesn't run that high, more 30-35C max. So would you say this flow is running optimally? I think it's probably the best I'll do.. The 1080 Ti throws out a lot of warm air and it's really up to the rear exhaust fan to pull that out..
> 
> The Maximus X Hero is very solid and it's one of the better ones I've owned. Overclocks the 8700K like nobody's business. What motherboard's do you currently use?


I can't say without knowing what the air temp going into GPU is at idle and at full load .. and if it gets warmer then temp it reaches about 3-4 minutes into a full load run. Part of the problem is 450D really only has 2x 140mm intakes (in front) and no other venting for additional fans. And it's PCIe slot covers are not well vented either, but I assume they have been removed.


----------



## ciarlatano

Astral85 said:


> I would say it's the GPU heat as well. Coolant doesn't run that high, more 30-35C max. So would you say this flow is running optimally? I think it's probably the best I'll do.. The 1080 Ti throws out a lot of warm air and it's really up to the rear exhaust fan to pull that out..
> 
> The Maximus X Hero is very solid and it's one of the better ones I've owned. Overclocks the 8700K like nobody's business. What motherboard's do you currently use?


A 3-5C delta on your liquid temp? Something is not right there. That kind of performance is typically only seen in loops with far more than necessary rad space, or if the block is not properly conducting heat to the liquid. I certainly wouldn't put it past Corsair to have the liquid temps intentionally skewed down in Link.


----------



## Astral85

ciarlatano said:


> A 3-5C delta on your liquid temp? Something is not right there. That kind of performance is typically only seen in loops with far more than necessary rad space, or if the block is not properly conducting heat to the liquid. I certainly wouldn't put it past Corsair to have the liquid temps intentionally skewed down in Link.


Are you implying this is good or bad? I personally would think this implies the cooler is working optimally...


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> I can't say without knowing what the air temp going into GPU is at idle and at full load .. and if it gets warmer then temp it reaches about 3-4 minutes into a full load run. Part of the problem is 450D really only has 2x 140mm intakes (in front) and no other venting for additional fans. And it's PCIe slot covers are not well vented either, but I assume they have been removed.


Where exactly would you measure the air intake coming into the GPU? I'm guessing somewhere underneath the GPU so I've moved my probe to sit around 2 inches underneath the tail end of the GPU.. Keep in mind the probe is quite close to the PCH here. Room temp currently is 21.1C and the probe 25-26C (idle) So a little bit warmer in this area perhaps but not much more so that the upper part of the case. Will post back a load temp for this area shortly. 

Ok you can flame me now for not removing PCI slot covers..


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> Where exactly would you measure the air intake coming into the GPU? I'm guessing somewhere underneath the GPU so I've moved my probe to sit around 2 inches underneath the tail end of the GPU.. Keep in mind the probe is quite close to the PCH here. Room temp currently is 21.1C and the probe 25-26C (idle) So a little bit warmer in this area perhaps but not much more so that the upper part of the case. Will post back a load temp for this area shortly.
> 
> Ok you can flame me now for not removing PCI slot covers..


Your GPU has 3x 80-90mm fans in it's shroud pulling air in and pushing it through the cooler fins. If tail end is the end nearest the front of case where intake fans are 25-26c I would expect the air to be progressively hotter the farther back in case it goes, so probably 35c, maybe more into GPU fan nearest back of case.

I just looked at 450D and I was mistaken.  It has bottom venting for 2x 120mm fans. 

What fans are you using for front intakes and rear exhaust? I ask because not all fans are equal in performance. Please forgive me if your told me before. I working with 3 people with similar Corsair cases and having a hard time keeping track of which is which. 

Maybe move the rear exhaust fan to bottom intake to see if that helps GPU temps. If it does and CPU temps remain the same no exhaust fan is even needed. Hard to say, maybe rear exhaust fan helps move airflow back between GPU and radiator.


----------



## Lorentzen

Hey doyll!
I posted in this thread for some recommendations on fans for my Fractal Define C TG and new fans for my NH-D14 aswell, a couple months ago.
The fans you recommended back then (all thermalright's): 
2x TY-147A/B for the NH-D14.
2x TY-147A SQ case front intake.
1x TY-127 for case bottom intake.

However the reseller still haven't got them in stock and I am not sure if they ever will get them in stock.
So I was hoping that you might have some other suggestions for the same amount/type of fans?
I would still very much like some white fans that balances noise and performance.

I dont know if you need more info or remember the posts from back then


----------



## doyll

Lorentzen said:


> Hey doyll!
> I posted in this thread for some recommendations on fans for my Fractal Define C TG and new fans for my NH-D14 aswell, a couple months ago.
> The fans you recommended back then (all thermalright's):
> 2x TY-147A/B for the NH-D14.
> 2x TY-147A SQ case front intake.
> 1x TY-127 for case bottom intake.
> 
> However the reseller still haven't got them in stock and I am not sure if they ever will get them in stock.
> So I was hoping that you might have some other suggestions for the same amount/type of fans?
> I would still very much like some white fans that balances noise and performance.
> 
> I dont know if you need more info or remember the posts from back then


Without knowing where you are it's hard to say what good performance fans and prices are in your area, so where on Earth are you.  Phanteks PH-F140MP and PH-F120MP are a little better than other Phanteks fans but all are quite good.


----------



## Lorentzen

doyll said:


> Without knowing where you are it's hard to say what good performance fans and prices are in your area, so where on Earth are you.  Phanteks PH-F140MP and PH-F120MP are a little better than other Phanteks fans but all are quite good.


Well of course 
I live in Denmark and usually use a page like pricerunner.dk (http://www.pricerunner.dk/cl/184/Computer-koeling?attr_40009778=40009779 for fans) which indexes multiple danish and a few european stores aswell.
While I would rather buy from a danish shop at this point I have almost given up on them 
And since there are no extra taxes or fees applied when buying inside europe I would be willing to do that.
I would not be able to use the F140MP's on the NH-D14 though would I? And if I am correct which 140mm's from Phantek would work on it the HP/HP II's?

I am yet to delete my order on computersalg.dk for the ThermalRight's I will leave it for now who knows maybe something miraculously will happen over the next few days 
Anyways in one of my previous posts I linked some of the larger danish shops and here they are again:

120mm fans:
https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1345/k...8b0f25&p=1&sq=
https://www.proshop.dk/Kabinet-Koele...r=120-mm&pre=0
https://www.coolerkit.dk/shop/120mm-254c1.html

140mm fans:
https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1345/k...c2c57a&p=1&sq=
https://www.proshop.dk/Kabinet-Koele...r=140-mm&pre=0
https://www.coolerkit.dk/shop/140mm-256c1.html

They should however be indexed on the previous pricerunner link aswell 
Thanks for your time!


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> Your GPU has 3x 80-90mm fans in it's shroud pulling air in and pushing it through the cooler fins. If tail end is the end nearest the front of case where intake fans are 25-26c I would expect the air to be progressively hotter the farther back in case it goes, so probably 35c, maybe more into GPU fan nearest back of case.
> 
> I just looked at 450D and I was mistaken.  It has bottom venting for 2x 120mm fans.
> 
> What fans are you using for front intakes and rear exhaust? I ask because not all fans are equal in performance. Please forgive me if your told me before. I working with 3 people with similar Corsair cases and having a hard time keeping track of which is which.
> 
> Maybe move the rear exhaust fan to bottom intake to see if that helps GPU temps. If it does and CPU temps remain the same no exhaust fan is even needed. Hard to say, maybe rear exhaust fan helps move airflow back between GPU and radiator.


I recently brought two Corsair HD 140's for my front intake and I think they are great solid fans. I run them at 1100-1300 rpm under load. I have a Noctua NF-F12 in the rear exhaust and I run that at around 1250 rpm under load. Yes the 450D has 2 bottom 120mm mounts and I have a Corsair ML120 in the middle (in between the PSU and HDD cage). It's sit's right under all of the PSU cables so there is some restriction there. I run it at 700 rpm under GPU/gaming load and I think it provides some cool air up into the tail end of the GPU. 

I positioned the probe towards the back of the case and 2 inches below the front end of the GPU. My soundcard sit's 1 PCI slot below the GPU and the probe is taped to the top of that. Yes you are right it is a little bit warmer here, the sensor topped out at 36C, 33.3 avg GPU/gaming load vs the 28-29C at the top of the case. I suppose it makes sense when there is not as much air flow in that area/pocket of the case. I'm not sure if/how that could be improved or whether that's just the way it is..


----------



## doyll

Lorentzen said:


> Well of course
> I live in Denmark and usually use a page like pricerunner.dk (http://www.pricerunner.dk/cl/184/Computer-koeling?attr_40009778=40009779 for fans) which indexes multiple danish and a few european stores aswell.
> While I would rather buy from a danish shop at this point I have almost given up on them
> And since there are no extra taxes or fees applied when buying inside europe I would be willing to do that.
> I would not be able to use the F140MP's on the NH-D14 though would I? And if I am correct which 140mm's from Phantek would work on it the HP/HP II's?
> 
> I am yet to delete my order on computersalg.dk for the ThermalRight's I will leave it for now who knows maybe something miraculously will happen over the next few days
> Anyways in one of my previous posts I linked some of the larger danish shops and here they are again:
> 
> 120mm fans:
> https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1345/k...8b0f25&p=1&sq=
> https://www.proshop.dk/Kabinet-Koele...r=120-mm&pre=0
> https://www.coolerkit.dk/shop/120mm-254c1.html
> 
> 140mm fans:
> https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1345/k...c2c57a&p=1&sq=
> https://www.proshop.dk/Kabinet-Koele...r=140-mm&pre=0
> https://www.coolerkit.dk/shop/140mm-256c1.html
> 
> They should however be indexed on the previous pricerunner link aswell
> Thanks for your time!


You could use PH-F140HP_II on NH-D14. They are round 140mm fans with 120mm fan mounts like center fan on D14. Front fan will depend on RAM height and case clearance. Sorry, if you told me I forgot. 

PH-F140MP on Amazon 
https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-PH-...UTF8&qid=1521544758&sr=8-1&keywords=ph-f140mp

PH-F140_BK2 on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-Upg...8&qid=1521544839&sr=1-1&keywords=ph-f140hp-II

Some shops you linked to have Phanteks products, but no fans. 

If you cannot get the above fans I will have to look at what you have available to figure out what are best options.


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> I recently brought two Corsair HD 140's for my front intake and I think they are great solid fans. I run them at 1100-1300 rpm under load. I have a Noctua NF-F12 in the rear exhaust and I run that at around 1250 rpm under load. Yes the 450D has 2 bottom 120mm mounts and I have a Corsair ML120 in the middle (in between the PSU and HDD cage). It's sit's right under all of the PSU cables so there is some restriction there. I run it at 700 rpm under GPU/gaming load and I think it provides some cool air up into the tail end of the GPU.
> 
> I positioned the probe towards the back of the case and 2 inches below the front end of the GPU. My soundcard sit's 1 PCI slot below the GPU and the probe is taped to the top of that. Yes you are right it is a little bit warmer here, the sensor topped out at 36C, 33.3 avg GPU/gaming load vs the 28-29C at the top of the case. I suppose it makes sense when there is not as much air flow in that area/pocket of the case. I'm not sure if/how that could be improved or whether that's just the way it is..


That is warmer than I would be happy with.

You could try speeding up bottom intake .. and lay a piece of paper or cardboard over other bottom vent so cool air we are pushing is doesn't leak right back out. Also try raising case up with some spacers under the case feet to improve airflow to bottom vents. Something like spray can caps, kids blocks, hockey pucks, etc. work for spacers. If that helps, then maybe try moving exhaust fan to other bottom intake vent.


----------



## Lorentzen

doyll said:


> You could use PH-F140HP_II on NH-D14. They are round 140mm fans with 120mm fan mounts like center fan on D14. Front fan will depend on RAM height and case clearance. Sorry, if you told me I forgot.
> 
> PH-F140MP on Amazon
> https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-PH-...UTF8&qid=1521544758&sr=8-1&keywords=ph-f140mp
> 
> PH-F140_BK2 on Amazon
> https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-Upg...8&qid=1521544839&sr=1-1&keywords=ph-f140hp-II
> 
> Some shops you linked to have Phanteks products, but no fans.
> 
> If you cannot get the above fans I will have to look at what you have available to figure out what are best options.


Yeah I got Corsair LPX memory so there should be clearance for two 140mm's on the cooler, we did talk about it last time but I dont blame you it was a couple of months ago 

Phanteks fan availability seems to be pretty bad in Denmark after I looked for it myself. 

I wrote to computersalg.dk regarding my Thermalright order, this being the second time I write them.
Last time I wrote them they simply added a month to the expected delivery date, this time they added a week so I will give them one more chance to get the ThermalRight's in stock.

If they dont manage to get them in stock, it seems that availability of the Phanteks fans allthough it is bad in Denmark is better in Europe, eg. UK and GER.
So I will probably go ahead and order some 120/140mm MP fans for the case and two 140mm HP2 fans for the cooler if computersalg.dk can't follow up on the order I placed with them.

If you have any other suggestions on fans by using the following link: http://www.pricerunner.dk/cl/184/Computer-koeling?attr_40009778=40009779 (again this link should index most danish shops) you are more than welcome to report back to me 
Otherwise I will report back when the new expected delivery date of the ThermalRight's has surpassed or has been delivered!


----------



## doyll

Lorentzen said:


> Yeah I got Corsair LPX memory so there should be clearance for two 140mm's on the cooler, we did talk about it last time but I dont blame you it was a couple of months ago
> 
> Phanteks fan availability seems to be pretty bad in Denmark after I looked for it myself.
> 
> I wrote to computersalg.dk regarding my Thermalright order, this being the second time I write them.
> Last time I wrote them they simply added a month to the expected delivery date, this time they added a week so I will give them one more chance to get the ThermalRight's in stock.
> 
> If they dont manage to get them in stock, it seems that availability of the Phanteks fans allthough it is bad in Denmark is better in Europe, eg. UK and GER.
> So I will probably go ahead and order some 120/140mm MP fans for the case and two 140mm HP2 fans for the cooler if computersalg.dk can't follow up on the order I placed with them.
> 
> If you have any other suggestions on fans by using the following link: http://www.pricerunner.dk/cl/184/Computer-koeling?attr_40009778=40009779 (again this link should index most danish shops) you are more than welcome to report back to me
> Otherwise I will report back when the new expected delivery date of the ThermalRight's has surpassed or has been delivered!


Indeed, I think LPX are 33.5mm tall so subtract 28mm from case CPU clearance specification and is you have more than 140mm there is enough clearance. for either TY-147A or PH-F140HP_II fans. With this kind of fans you don't need exhaust fans, just intakes and cooler fans.


----------



## Blameless

Astral85 said:


> Are you implying this is good or bad? I personally would think this implies the cooler is working optimally...


He's implying the temperature reading is wrong, or that there is some other issue, which is bad.

A 4.9GHz 8700K that isn't throttling is putting out somewhere in the ballpark of 180w of heat at maximum load. An a thin aluminium 240 rad isn't going to dissipate that sort of heat with a 3-5C temperature delta unless the fans are extremely powerful (and correspondingly loud).

Depending on the fans and load your testing with, I'd be sceptical of that water temp delta as well.


----------



## ciarlatano

Blameless said:


> Astral85 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you implying this is good or bad? I personally would think this implies the cooler is working optimally...
> 
> 
> 
> He's implying the temperature reading is wrong, or that there is some other issue, which is bad.
> 
> A 4.9GHz 8700K that isn't throttling is putting out somewhere in the ballpark of 180w of heat at maximum load. An a thin aluminium 240 rad isn't going to dissipate that sort of heat with a 3-5C temperature delta unless the fans are extremely powerful (and correspondingly loud).
> 
> Depending on the fans and load your testing with, I'd be sceptical of that water temp delta as well.
Click to expand...

It could be 4000 rpm 38mm thick Delta's in push/pull, and I still wouldn't buy it.


----------



## Astral85

Blameless said:


> He's implying the temperature reading is wrong, or that there is some other issue, which is bad.
> 
> A 4.9GHz 8700K that isn't throttling is putting out somewhere in the ballpark of 180w of heat at maximum load. An a thin aluminium 240 rad isn't going to dissipate that sort of heat with a 3-5C temperature delta unless the fans are extremely powerful (and correspondingly loud).
> 
> Depending on the fans and load your testing with, I'd be sceptical of that water temp delta as well.


I don't know, all monitoring programs are reading the same coolant temperature. I am running this at 1.280v not 1.400v so maybe that's where the heat output difference lies and this is a gaming load not a torturous stress test.. I believe my 8700K load output is around 90-100W. Even my UPS give's some indication of the power being drawn at the wall and I think I'd notice and extra 80-90W...


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> That is warmer than I would be happy with.
> 
> You could try speeding up bottom intake .. and lay a piece of paper or cardboard over other bottom vent so cool air we are pushing is doesn't leak right back out. Also try raising case up with some spacers under the case feet to improve airflow to bottom vents. Something like spray can caps, kids blocks, hockey pucks, etc. work for spacers. If that helps, then maybe try moving exhaust fan to other bottom intake vent.


I basically had the thermal sensor taped to the top of the sound card and I've now realised that the top of the sound card (PCB) is quite warm. That was likely giving the sky high temps there.. I've now moved it (thermal sensor) to the middle bottom of the case (a few inches above the bottom mount ML120 and a few inches below the middle of the GPU. The reading here now is more or less similar to the reading in the top half of the case - room temp 23C top sensor 25-26, bottom sensor 26-27C. 

With the ML120 sitting under a tone of PSU cables I think that tends to send it's air flow in all sorts of directions. Maybe 700 rpm is not enough to cut through the cables. I will take some readings with different fan speeds with the sensor in this location..


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> I basically had the thermal sensor taped to the top of the sound card and I've now realised that the top of the sound card (PCB) is quite warm. That was likely giving the sky high temps there.. I've now moved it (thermal sensor) to the middle bottom of the case (a few inches above the bottom mount ML120 and a few inches below the middle of the GPU. The reading here now is more or less similar to the reading in the top half of the case - room temp 23C top sensor 25-26, bottom sensor 26-27C.
> 
> With the ML120 sitting under a tone of PSU cables I think that tends to send it's air flow in all sorts of directions. Maybe 700 rpm is not enough to cut through the cables. I will take some readings with different fan speeds with the sensor in this location..


I usually position senors about 10mm in front of center of fan I'm monitoring airflow into. 

Obviously the air temp a couple inches inside of an intake fan. Only heat it may have obsorbed is from fan motor itself, and they don't give off much heat.


----------



## Astral85

doyll said:


> I usually position senors about 10mm in front of center of fan I'm monitoring airflow into.
> 
> Obviously the air temp a couple inches inside of an intake fan. Only heat it may have obsorbed is from fan motor itself, and they don't give off much heat.


I'm at the conclusion that the 1080 Ti throws out heat in all directions including downwards. I don't understand though why so much heat is radiated downwards from the GPU. This results in the bottom half of the case running 3-4C warmer than the top half. I think it is likely because all of the exhaust is at the top of the case and heat tends to get trapped more in the bottom half... I'm unsure whether the ML120 beneath the GPU does provide cool air for the GPU to draw in or whether it just pushes the downward radiated GPU heat back into and around the GPU. I haven't determined exactly where the front bottom 140mm fans air flow is dispersed. I think it tends to reflect off the hdd cage and case side panel.


----------



## doyll

Astral85 said:


> I'm at the conclusion that the 1080 Ti throws out heat in all directions including downwards. I don't understand though why so much heat is radiated downwards from the GPU. This results in the bottom half of the case running 3-4C warmer than the top half. I think it is likely because all of the exhaust is at the top of the case and heat tends to get trapped more in the bottom half... I'm unsure whether the ML120 beneath the GPU does provide cool air for the GPU to draw in or whether it just pushes the downward radiated GPU heat back into and around the GPU. I haven't determined exactly where the front bottom 140mm fans air flow is dispersed. I think it tends to reflect off the hdd cage and case side panel.


Because heated air from finpack toward motherboard comes out between it's fans and motherboard with easiest place to go except back being back into it's own cooler fans. Same problem as many pancake / downflow CPU cooler have.  Only way I know of to resolve this problem is to duct intake air to GPU's fans so there is a divider between it's heated exhaust coming out and the cool air going to it's fans. I mount my HDDs in 5.25" bays or on case bottom. Maybe try moving HDD up so bottom can get better front intake airflow. Probably a trade-off in a little less / warmer top section airflow, but that might not raise CPU temps much while lower GPU intake airflow might lower noise level.


----------



## Abaidor

doyll said:


> You could use PH-F140HP_II on NH-D14. They are round 140mm fans with 120mm fan mounts like center fan on D14. Front fan will depend on RAM height and case clearance. Sorry, if you told me I forgot.
> 
> PH-F140MP on Amazon
> https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-PH-...UTF8&qid=1521544758&sr=8-1&keywords=ph-f140mp
> 
> PH-F140_BK2 on Amazon
> https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-Upg...8&qid=1521544839&sr=1-1&keywords=ph-f140hp-II
> 
> Some shops you linked to have Phanteks products, but no fans.
> 
> If you cannot get the above fans I will have to look at what you have available to figure out what are best options.



Here you are PH-F140MP on Amazon.de - I have bought lots of hardware from there. All European Amazon stores too (Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.gr, Amazon.es) 

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00OP2PUDQ...olid=1UEJ8RAMYIJUZ&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


An of course Highflow.nl they have a huge variety of watercooling items and they ship all over Europe. I will be receiving an order from them full of goodies on Monday.

https://www.highflow.nl/

*EDIT*

I also forgot Caseking.de & Overclockers.co.uk (Huge ranges).BTW if you have any sort of business in your name or your spouse or a friend you can buy from any EU store without paying VAT since inter-EU company purchases do not carry VAT. This is 19% cheaper from those stores but you need to provide some papers and a EU registered VAT number.


----------



## Lorentzen

Hey everybody!

First of all a big thanks to doyll for helping me in the process of choosing some fans and providing guidance.
When things were looking most grim on getting the ThermalRight fans from a danish retailer he even offered to buy some himself and mail them to me.
However I finally got the fans (2x TY-147A, 2x TY-147A SQ), mounted them in my Define C TG and now I got some testing results for you:
All configurations was run with 8700K @ 1.21 VCORE, 4.8Ghz All Core Sync and in Prime95 26.6 doing Small FFT's for an hour.
Temperatures was recorded with latest HWInfo64, the temperatures I list are from the hottest core.
I know the clock is stable so the question was did the fans improve temperatures?

Configuration 1:
Case fans: 2x Fractal Design X2 GP-12 as back exhaust and one front intake between GPU and CPU (Default locations)
Noctua NH-D14: 1x NF-P14 and 1x NF-P12
Max temp: 87
Average: 86

Configuration 2:
Case fans: 1x X2 GP-12 as back exhaust, 2x TY-147A SQ front intake
Noctua NH-D14: 1x NF-P14 and 1x NF-P12
Max temp: 84
Average: 83

Configuration 3:
Case fans: 2x TY-147A SQ front intake
Noctua NH-D14: 1x NF-P14 and 1x NF-P12
Max temp: 85
Average: 84

Configuration 4:
Case fans: 2x TY-147A SQ front intake
Noctua NH-D14: 2x TY-147A (The front one barely fitted but there is a little clearance between fan and glass panel  )
Max temp: 83
Average: 82

While my way of measuring might not be that accurate I would like to think that the 4 degree drop from my initial configuration to my last is not within the margin of error, and there is an improvement to temperatures.

If I was to test one more configuration I would try putting back an exhaust fan as the 2nd configuration with exhaust performed better than the 3rd configuration where the exhaust fan was removed.

Again I would like to thank doyll, ohh and of course under idle and even game load, the system is running dead silent.


----------



## doyll

Lorentzen said:


> Hey everybody!
> 
> First of all a big thanks to doyll for helping me in the process of choosing some fans and providing guidance.
> When things were looking most grim on getting the ThermalRight fans from a danish retailer he even offered to buy some himself and mail them to me.
> However I finally got the fans (2x TY-147A, 2x TY-147A SQ), mounted them in my Define C TG and now I got some testing results for you:
> All configurations was run with 1.21 VCORE, 4.8Ghz All Core Sync and in Prime95 26.6 doing Small FFT's for an hour.
> Temperatures was recorded with latest HWInfo64, the temperatures I list are from the hottest core.
> I know the clock is stable so the question was did the fans improve temperatures?
> 
> Configuration 1:
> Case fans: 2x Fractal Design X2 GP-12 as back exhaust and one front intake between GPU and CPU (Default locations)
> Noctua NH-D14: 1x NF-P14 and 1x NF-P12
> Max temp: 87
> Average: 86
> 
> Configuration 2:
> Case fans: 1x X2 GP-12 as back exhaust, 2x TY-147A SQ front intake
> Noctua NH-D14: 1x NF-P14 and 1x NF-P12
> Max temp: 84
> Average: 83
> 
> Configuration 3:
> Case fans: 2x TY-147A SQ front intake
> Noctua NH-D14: 1x NF-P14 and 1x NF-P12
> Max temp: 85
> Average: 84
> 
> Configuration 4:
> Case fans: 2x TY-147A SQ front intake
> Noctua NH-D14: 2x TY-147A (The front one barely fitted but there is a little clearance between fan and glass panel  )
> Max temp: 83
> Average: 82
> 
> While my way of measuring might not be that accurate I would like to think that the 4 degree drop from my initial configuration to my last is not within the margin of error, and there is an improvement to temperatures.
> 
> If I was to test one more configuration I would try putting back an exhaust fan as the 2nd configuration with exhaust performed better than the 3rd configuration where the exhaust fan was removed.
> 
> Again I would like to thank doyll, ohh and of course under idle and even game load, the system is running dead silent.


Thanks for testing and sharing the results. :thumb:

I agree, the 1c warmer without rear exhaust is probably because of no rear exhaust, but is it quieter without? 

If system is very quiet you could try advancing the fan rpm 100rpm or maybe even 200rpm at each temperature point .. or lower the temp 5-10c so fans spin up a little more / move a little more air than they are now. This often lowers temps a few degrees. 

In my builds fans peak at about 1050-1100rpm at full load in 22-23c room. That is typically with CPU at about 65-70c. Fans are just loud enough I know they are running and system is working at full load.


----------



## DiceAir

sorry for a noob question and I know we talked about this before but anyway. On my air540 I have ph-tc14pe cooler. Before I make a duct do you think I should remove the rear exhaust fan? Will that improve air cooling or not?

I'm thinking of making a duct. Recently I bought a kraken g12 bracket and corsair h75 to cool my gpu and man it's amazing. went from 77C on the core down to 45C on the core. I have the raditaor on the bottom front as intake but don't know if I should have it as exhaust or not. My cpu is running a bit hotter due to this.


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> sorry for a noob question and I know we talked about this before but anyway. On my air540 I have ph-tc14pe cooler. Before I make a duct do you think I should remove the rear exhaust fan? Will that improve air cooling or not?
> 
> I'm thinking of making a duct. Recently I bought a kraken g12 bracket and corsair h75 to cool my gpu and man it's amazing. went from 77C on the core down to 45C on the core. I have the raditaor on the bottom front as intake but don't know if I should have it as exhaust or not. My cpu is running a bit hotter due to this.


Sorry for being extremely blunt, but in not much more time then it took to post you could probably have simply un-plugged the rear fan and then run system for a day and see if it is cooler or hotter. 

Just guessing, but your GPU temps dropping 32c indicates to me that there was something causing it to run that hot. Maybe old TIM, maybe stock cooler was very dirty, or maybe bad case airflow and air temp into stock cooler was way above room ambient .. not sure what, but to me something was not as it should be. 

Have you read the 5th post in this thread? It's a basic guide about case airflow, how to optimize it and now to minitor case airflow temperature into coolers.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> Sorry for being extremely blunt, but in not much more time then it took to post you could probably have simply un-plugged the rear fan and then run system for a day and see if it is cooler or hotter.
> 
> Just guessing, but your GPU temps dropping 32c indicates to me that there was something causing it to run that hot. Maybe old TIM, maybe stock cooler was very dirty, or maybe bad case airflow and air temp into stock cooler was way above room ambient .. not sure what, but to me something was not as it should be.
> 
> Have you read the 5th post in this thread? It's a basic guide about case airflow, how to optimize it and now to minitor case airflow temperature into coolers.


thanks for the reply. I read you post . oh btw I investigated and don't know how it happened but looks like my gpu heatsink didn't make proper contact and allowed some dust to get on the underside of the thermal pads and unable to remove it. Anyway I dropped the temps now so extremely happy with that but my cpu is still running hot.

my pc at work runs much cooler although the gpu has a lot lower tdp here is the specs for both my work and personal rig.

i7-4790k @ 4.4GHz 1.180V
ph-tc14pe cpu cooler
980 ti with h75 and heatsinks on vrm and memory
corsair air 540
2x cougar vertex pwm front intake, 1x stock af140L back, radiator front intake
2x HDD bottom of case

Work pc

i7-6700k @ 4.5GHz 1.3V
cooler master hyper 212x
phanteks enthoo pro case
xfx rx-560D
200mm fan intake front, 140mm back exhaust
1x HDD front. 

My work pc on same stress test runs 70-73C max my home pc nearing 80C and get random spikes over 80C. Although my pc doesn't crash it would be nice to be able to overclock it a bit. and I know the 980ti will make the case much hotter than a rx560D will. What I'm supprised at is that a dual tower pahnteks cooler seems like it does much worse than the cheap hyper 212x.


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> thanks for the reply. I read you post . oh btw I investigated and don't know how it happened but looks like my gpu heatsink didn't make proper contact and allowed some dust to get on the underside of the thermal pads and unable to remove it. Anyway I dropped the temps now so extremely happy with that but my cpu is still running hot.
> 
> my pc at work runs much cooler although the gpu has a lot lower tdp here is the specs for both my work and personal rig.
> 
> i7-4790k @ 4.4GHz 1.180V
> ph-tc14pe cpu cooler
> 980 ti with h75 and heatsinks on vrm and memory
> corsair air 540
> 2x cougar vertex pwm front intake, 1x stock af140L back, radiator front intake
> 2x HDD bottom of case
> 
> Work pc
> 
> i7-6700k @ 4.5GHz 1.3V
> cooler master hyper 212x
> phanteks enthoo pro case
> xfx rx-560D
> 200mm fan intake front, 140mm back exhaust
> 1x HDD front.
> 
> My work pc on same stress test runs 70-73C max my home pc nearing 80C and get random spikes over 80C. Although my pc doesn't crash it would be nice to be able to overclock it a bit. and I know the 980ti will make the case much hotter than a rx560D will. What I'm supprised at is that a dual tower pahnteks cooler seems like it does much worse than the cheap hyper 212x.


First thing I noticed is '_radiator as intake_' .. it is pre-heated the air it moves into case. 

Air 540 is a case that is not easy to setup airflow in. 
I suggest you make yourself a simple low-cost remove temp monitoring thermometer like I use and described in 5th post and monitor the air temp going into CPU cooler. Then we will know if you need to change case airflow by moving radiator to somewhere it can be mounted as exhaust, with a duct to CPU cooler, or something else.

What fans are on your PH-TC14PE? Over the years Phanteks has changed them 3 times now .. and made changes in cooler at least once from 2-piece fins to single piece fins.

I think Enthoo Pro is a much better case than 540. 

Hyper 212 is not near as good a cooler. 

While the 200mm front intake fan is almost worthless your temps are fine. You would be amazed how much cooler and quieter Pro is with 2x 140mm intakes, something like PH-F140MP. 

Is it safe to assume you have case fans speed controlled to cycle with cooler fans?


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> First thing I noticed is '_radiator as intake_' .. it is pre-heated the air it moves into case.
> 
> Air 540 is a case that is not easy to setup airflow in.
> I suggest you make yourself a simple low-cost remove temp monitoring thermometer like I use and described in 5th post and monitor the air temp going into CPU cooler. Then we will know if you need to change case airflow by moving radiator to somewhere it can be mounted as exhaust, with a duct to CPU cooler, or something else.
> 
> What fans are on your PH-TC14PE? Over the years Phanteks has changed them 3 times now .. and made changes in cooler at least once from 2-piece fins to single piece fins.
> 
> I think Enthoo Pro is a much better case than 540.
> 
> Hyper 212 is not near as good a cooler.
> 
> While the 200mm front intake fan is almost worthless your temps are fine. You would be amazed how much cooler and quieter Pro is with 2x 140mm intakes, something like PH-F140MP.
> 
> Is it safe to assume you have case fans speed controlled to cycle with cooler fans?


I also think I might have damaged the heatspreader when I delidded my cpu and the heatspreader is now not giving 100% contact on cpu die so the cpu is running hotter than normal. Like I said so far no crashes in my games but I will try maybe over the weekend setting my radiator as exhaust. Do you think I can set it as exhaust in the front as it's the only place I can really put it cause of the short tubes? I can maybe mount it at back as exhaust but think that would make matters worse.


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> I also think I might have damaged the heatspreader when I delidded my cpu and the heatspreader is now not giving 100% contact on cpu die so the cpu is running hotter than normal. Like I said so far no crashes in my games but I will try maybe over the weekend setting my radiator as exhaust. Do you think I can set it as exhaust in the front as it's the only place I can really put it cause of the short tubes? I can maybe mount it at back as exhaust but think that would make matters worse.


Okay, I'm going to be rude/blunt again. You keep dribbling in information almost like you are baiting me / forcing me to answer things without needed information .. like CPU is delidded and IHS is possibly damaged/bent and not making good contact. Of course that would make a huge difference is IHS heat transfer ability. Only way I know of to check if IHS is flat is remove cooler and check IHS with a straight edge. 

If IHS is damaged/bent, then it will very likely not be transfering heat as it should. 

How old is your PH-TC14PE? 

Did you r&r stock GPU cooler? 
Is that how dust got onto pads and it didn't transfer heat properly?

Swithing H75 to exhaust on front is not going to help. If H75 reaches front I would think it would reach back exhaust vent.

Answer to something from previous post:
We can't compare 212 and 14PE to each other in your two very different systems. To compare them we would need to test them on same CPU in same system.​


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> Okay, I'm going to be rude/blunt again. You keep dribbling in information almost like you are baiting me / forcing me to answer things without needed information .. like CPU is delidded and IHS is possibly damaged/bent and not making good contact. Of course that would make a huge difference is IHS heat transfer ability. Only way I know of to check if IHS is flat is remove cooler and check IHS with a straight edge.
> 
> If IHS is damaged/bent, then it will very likely not be transfering heat as it should.
> 
> How old is your PH-TC14PE?
> 
> Did you r&r stock GPU cooler?
> Is that how dust got onto pads and it didn't transfer heat properly?
> 
> Swithing H75 to exhaust on front is not going to help. If H75 reaches front I would think it would reach back exhaust vent.
> 
> Answer to something from previous post:
> We can't compare 212 and 14PE to each other in your two very different systems. To compare them we would need to test them on same CPU in same system.​


stock cooler I know somehow got dust on the thermal pds but that's a non issue now so don't worry about that now but just what I have now. oh forgot to mentioned that I have my pc laying on it's side and that made a huge difference for me. Also have less sagging on my gpu. 

So I installed a fan on the top back side near the back fan and it seems to help a bit. temps is down by a few degrees so far I'm happy now. Also winter is coming here so temps will be a bit lower as well. 

I did test with rear exhaust fan disabled but that made a huge difference. temps was 5C higher. I was thinking now by having a duct from the from one of the front fans onto the CPU forcing cool air onto the CPU cooler. the 1 otherfan and radiator I think will be enough to cool the rest of components.


----------



## gusfraba

hi all i m new here. i want to ask if every pwm fan hub work the same ? i mean in my country i can find an aerocool .it do the same job or some it is only for rgb or something ?


----------



## doyll

gusfraba said:


> hi all i m new here. i want to ask if every pwm fan hub work the same ? i mean in my country i can find an aerocool .it do the same job or some it is only for rgb or something ?


Some PWM fan hubs split PWM control signal from motherboard to fans plugged into fan hub. 
Some use PWM signal to convert 12v to variable voltage to fans plugged into hub. 
Some generate a PWM signal to control PWM fans plugged into hub.


----------



## gusfraba

https://www.quickshop.gr/ProductDetails.aspx?product=D2D526DC-7E1E-4E3D-8AA0-9579C92FF5A5

https://www.priveshop.gr/product/11...YKSHS/AEROCOOL-PROJECT-7-P7H1-RGB-PWM-FAN-HUB

that i can find and 1 more from deepcool fh-10 pwm fan hub
http://www.deepcool.com/product/dcoolingaccessory/2017-11/12_7223.shtml


----------



## doyll

gusfraba said:


> https://www.quickshop.gr/ProductDetails.aspx?product=D2D526DC-7E1E-4E3D-8AA0-9579C92FF5A5
> 
> https://www.priveshop.gr/product/11...YKSHS/AEROCOOL-PROJECT-7-P7H1-RGB-PWM-FAN-HUB
> 
> that i can find and 1 more from deepcool fh-10 pwm fan hub
> http://www.deepcool.com/product/dcoolingaccessory/2017-11/12_7223.shtml


I do not use anything thermalfake and advise you not to either. 

I don't think Aerocool hub is really PWM because the say_ "Monitors RPM of up to five fans compatible with either 4-pin or 3-pin connectors through the P7-H1 (Project7- Hub1)"_ PWM only works if there is a 4th pin. 

What do you want to control with a PWM hub? 

Most new motherboards have several PWM controlled headers. 

Good PWM hubs for splitting PWM signal are 
Swiftech PWM hub
https://www.swiftech.com/8-WayPWMsplitter-sata.aspx
Silverstonetek CPF04 
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?area=en&pid=526

They use PSU power and monitor the speed of one fan while using PWM control signal on pin-4 to control all the fans. 

I like them because they do power the fans on fan header so will never overload and burn it out. 

Fan give a power rating. Something like 2 watts load rating. Problem is most of these load ratings are running load and startup load is 2-5 times more power. So a fan rated 2 watts running will be drawng 5-10 watts when it starts up. Most motherboard fan headers are rated 1 amp (12 watts) maximum load. 

If you know anyone who has had a motherboard fan header quite working after running 3 or 4 fans on it I will bet you a nice cold drink that it failed when they turned on their computer.


----------



## Brightmist

https://www.amazon.com/IC-Graphite-...0&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=ic+graphit+thermo+pad

Anyone tested this graphite thermal pad vs. paste yet? (except linus)


----------



## doyll

Brightmist said:


> https://www.amazon.com/IC-Graphite-...0&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=ic+graphit+thermo+pad
> 
> Anyone tested this graphite thermal pad vs. paste yet? (except linus)


I don't know of anyone who has but I'm emailing them. 
Thanks for the heads-up! :thumb:


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> I don't know of anyone who has but I'm emailing them.
> Thanks for the heads-up! :thumb:


Guys over here have been testing - http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/ic-graphite-thermal-pad-available-for-test-and-review.815439/page-12

Not stellar results.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Guys over here have been testing - http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...-available-for-test-and-review.815439/page-12
> 
> Not stellar results.


Maybe I'm miss-reading but results appear very mixed but generally higher temps then normal TIM gives.


----------



## Gilles3000

ciarlatano said:


> Not stellar results.


Its better than I expected tbh, I remember being extremely skeptical when a guy here was raving about graphite pads months ago, before this product was even released.

I honestly thought the results were going to be horrible because of the way graphite sheets conduct heat, but seems like it not nearly as bad as i thought it would be.

There might be some situations where not having to deal with past might be preferable, and where the couple degree hit over decent paste might not be the end of the world.

Doyll's favorite reviewer did a video on it too  :


----------



## ciarlatano

BTW, Panasonic and Mouser have had these available for quite some time. Looks like a longevity rather than performance increase.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Its better than I expected tbh, I remember being extremely skeptical when a guy here was raving about graphite pads months ago, before this product was even released.
> 
> I honestly thought the results were going to be horrible because of the way graphite sheets conduct heat, but seems like it not nearly as bad as i thought it would be.
> 
> There might be some situations where not having to deal with past might be preferable, and where the couple degree hit over decent paste might not be the end of the world.
> 
> Doyll's favorite reviewer did a video on it too  :
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpphKzmDiJM


RC Components has been selling graphice interface pads with specs saying thermal conductivity of 5 W/mK to 240 W/mK. 240 W/mk would be direct graphite contact with no voids filled with other compounds in pad. 

May the Gods of Revenge rain tons of graphite on you for posting my my name in same sentence with that bozo.


----------



## Memmento Mori

well if we are at the thermal pad discussion now, would be interested if any1 has experience with fujipoly sarcon xr-m vs Thermal Grizzly Minus 8 Pads. Is it worth to hunt down and pay for fujipoly pads to use them on GPU? 

I know that the thermal grizzly pads are rated with 8 W/mK and fujipoly with 17 W/mK, but is the temp difference between this 2 also that big to justify the extra cost? 

(grizzly is avialable at my local store, fujipoly = amazon + postage from US to EU)

thx for any info/advice :thumb:

BR, MM :axesmiley


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> May the Gods of Revenge rain tons of graphite on you for posting my my name in same sentence with that bozo.


Considering the value of graphite, that's one odd way to get revenge 



Memmento Mori said:


> well if we are at the thermal pad discussion now, would be interested if any1 has experience with fujipoly sarcon xr-m vs Thermal Grizzly Minus 8 Pads. Is it worth to hunt down and pay for fujipoly pads to use them on GPU?


I'd say no, just get the minus 8 pads. Unless you're trying to pump rather extreme amounts of current trough your vrm, there's no point in getting those specialty fujipoly pads.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Considering the value of graphite, that's one odd way to get revenge


Graphite power is extremely messy. 

Problem with using graphite is like using diamond. Great W/mk on it's own but only as good as the medium it is mixed into, and TIM medium is the limiting factor .. that and how much metal to metal contact we have between our coolers and our CPU IHS in the area where CPU die is under IHS. It doesn't matter how good the TIM medium is if there is a layer of TIM instead of metal to metal contact with TIM only filling voids in granular metal structure heat transfer is not going to be very good. But you know this so I hope the Graphite Dust God gets you!


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Would like to maybe try out those graphite pads for my mobo PCH and the LSI chip & PLX switch too, possibly even PCIe card heatsinks (like RAID card & 10GBe NIC). Most likely better than what's currently underneath.


----------



## sonic2911

Hi guys, do you know where I can buy some thermalright fans, the TY-143SQ and TY-147ASQ?
Thanks


----------



## doyll

sonic2911 said:


> Hi guys, do you know where I can buy some thermalright fans, the TY-143SQ and TY-147ASQ?
> Thanks


Where on Earth are you located? What online places can you buy from?


----------



## sonic2911

I live in US


----------



## doyll

sonic2911 said:


> I live in US


How many times in how many places are you going to ask this same question? 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G2942BK?tag=overclockconvert-20

Same basic fan as TY-143 SQ, different name
https://www.pugetsystems.com/store/item.php?cat=Additional+Cooling&id=9355&com=d41d8cd9&que=140
https://www.frozencpu.com/products/15477/fan-966/Cooljag_Everflow_140mm_x_25mm_Fan_R121425SL.html


----------



## gonX

sonic2911 said:


> Hi guys, do you know where I can buy some thermalright fans, the TY-143SQ and TY-147ASQ?
> Thanks



Please refer to the thread you made for this question:
http://www.overclock.net/forum/246-air-cooling/1690841-where-buy-ty-143sq-ty-147asq-us.html


----------



## AshBorer

looks like gamersnexus is going to begin testing fans with proper equipment


----------



## doyll

AshBorer said:


> looks like gamersnexus is going to begin testing fans with proper equipment
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs-7J2uxOZ4


Not really much of a test system, but still better than many out there. :thumb: 

Hot wire anomemeters are not all that expensive. Google 'hot wire anomemeter' and you will find prices form well below $100 to less than $300 for most expensive sensor and meter combos.

Sticking a few wire mesh grills in the airflow tube isn't putting 'flow straightener' in the tube. :thumbsdow
This is what the material mass airflow straighteners are made from looks like.







No pressure rating equipment or anything to show able to overcome resistance .. unless you call thermal testing on a radiator comparable. Manometers (pressure differential meter) accurate to 0.1mm H2O from 0.0mm H2O to 10.0mm H2O are what are expensive. I know because I'm trying to find one. 

Sounds similar to Thermalbench testing. Although Thermalbench was doing his is a lab environment last time I talked to him.


----------



## Loladinas

SPCR did an interesting article on the matter a few years ago.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article734-page1.html
and then a couple years later they went back to measuring temperature drop, since according to them that's the metric that matters.


----------



## doyll

Loladinas said:


> SPCR did an interesting article on the matter a few years ago.
> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article734-page1.html
> and then a couple years later they went back to measuring temperature drop, since according to them that's the metric that matters.


While quite old it's still a very relivant article to airflow measurement. Especially the use of heat to a cooler or radiator and how it relates to fan performance .. namely that it's not the best way of trying to determine a fan's performance / ability to flow air. The reason it's used is because of how complex and expensive a test fixture to measure fan pressure is. 

I've been trying for years to come up with a way of accurately monitoring / measuring airflow and pressure of fans that I can build without breaking the bank. Airflow is not too hard to do, but the instruments to measure pressure are very expensive. I'm still haven't figured one out I afford that I trust enough to publish the results from.


----------



## paskowitz

In terms of static pressure to noise at 400-1200rpm, who wins? Don't need raw data, just informed opinion.

120mm mounted to rad
Corsair ML120
Noctua NF-F12
Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-PS
120mm winner = ?

140mm mounted to case (some obstruction)
Corsair ML140
Noctua NF-A14
Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B14-PS
140mm winner = ?


----------



## ciarlatano

paskowitz said:


> In terms of static pressure to noise at 400-1200rpm, who wins? Don't need raw data, just informed opinion.
> 
> 120mm mounted to rad
> Corsair ML120
> Noctua NF-F12
> Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-PS
> 120mm winner = ?
> 
> 140mm mounted to case (some obstruction)
> Corsair ML140
> Noctua NF-A14
> Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B14-PS
> 140mm winner = ?


In the 120mm, the be quiet SW3.
In the 140mm, the SW3 or Phanteks F140MP if the obstruction is in front of the fan, as the eLoops react terribly to that.


----------



## doyll

Thermalright TY-147A are good if you can find them.


----------



## alanthecelt

yer i was running a load of phanteks fans on my previous build, and decided to step it up to the ml120's... 
And kind of regretting it, apparently they are running pwm according to my motherboard, but there is some sort of motor noise, Ill be trying a corsair link to drive them soon, interested to see if that helps matters


----------



## doyll

alanthecelt said:


> yer i was running a load of phanteks fans on my previous build, and decided to step it up to the ml120's...
> And kind of regretting it, apparently they are running pwm according to my motherboard, but there is some sort of motor noise, Ill be trying a corsair link to drive them soon, interested to see if that helps matters


Not really surprised to hear. Phanteks case fans are really quite good. If it was me I would go back to the Phanteks fans .. not sure which fan your Evolv came with and/or what you put on your radiators. Originally they came with PH-F140SP, then changed to PH-F140MP impeller on PH-F140SP motor and housing. Their website still says PH-F140SP, but Evolv hasn't has them for .. not sure but I know is well more than a year, likely closer to 2 years. The PH-F140MP and PH-F120MP are quiet good and often on sale in 2x or 3x packs. 

be quiet! Silent Wings 3 are arguably the best out right now, but they are also quite expensive.


----------



## alanthecelt

yer i should say my sig is out of date and i'm on an in win 303 using ml120's all round, but starting on a lian li v3000 with masses of rad space... might actually go through and re assess what of the Phanteks fans i have and save a little money re using them, although i kinda figured pwm would be superior.. maybe not so
i remember the confusion over what model they were and in fact i think i bought the wrong ones based on the swapping around of impellers and what not


----------



## doyll

alanthecelt said:


> yer i should say my sig is out of date and i'm on an in win 303 using ml120's all round, but starting on a lian li v3000 with masses of rad space... might actually go through and re assess what of the Phanteks fans i have and save a little money re using them, although i kinda figured pwm would be superior.. maybe not so
> i remember the confusion over what model they were and in fact i think i bought the wrong ones based on the swapping around of impellers and what not


yer, kinda hard to tell what you need when sig rig is wrong while using in win 303 box with very limited venting that is also very restrictive and 'starting on' Lian Li V3000. 

Sorry to be blunt, but this post just made my answer to your original question a total waste of time because your sig is not real.  

I can only think of 3 current Phanteks fans that are not PWM; PH-F140SP and newer unmarked models of 120mm & 140mm case fans.


----------



## deskiller

...
couple months ago, I added bottom fan as intake intake on my hafx case.

today, I was tweaking fan settings to quiet them some. 

I noticed during prime95 that when the bottom intake fan was off, I was actually getting lower motherboard temps when when it was on.

with it off. motherboard minimum temp was 28c
with it on. motherboard minimum temp was 32c

with prime95 and fan off, temp stayed at 28c.

with prime95 and fan on, temp hovered around 35-40c.

so I think bottom intake fan was blowing the heat back against the motherboard.


----------



## doyll

deskiller said:


> ...
> couple months ago, I added bottom fan as intake intake on my hafx case.
> 
> today, I was tweaking fan settings to quiet them some.
> 
> I noticed during prime95 that when the bottom intake fan was off, I was actually getting lower motherboard temps when when it was on.
> 
> with it off. motherboard minimum temp was 28c
> with it on. motherboard minimum temp was 32c
> 
> with prime95 and fan off, temp stayed at 28c.
> 
> with prime95 and fan on, temp hovered around 35-40c.
> 
> so I think bottom intake fan was blowing the heat back against the motherboard.


What case, what fans, fan placement and fan speeds? Are PCIe slot covers all removed?


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Hey doyll, what do you think about the Enermax D.F.STORM (UCDFS12P) as mid-case 4U rack chassis fans? There's three qualities I like about them that I think would make sense in a rack chassis, specifically the Rosewill 4U RSV-L4000. They can go up to 3,500RPM when I want brute force power. They have the "DFR" tech thing, so they reverse for a few seconds to remove dust. And the blades are detachable for easy cleaning. 

http://www.enermaxusa.com/product.php?pid=84772916#!/D.F. Storm/p/84772916

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147155


----------



## doyll

TheBloodEagle said:


> Hey doyll, what do you think about the Enermax D.F.STORM (UCDFS12P) as mid-case 4U rack chassis fans? There's three qualities I like about them that I think would make sense in a rack chassis, specifically the Rosewill 4U RSV-L4000. They can go up to 3,500RPM when I want brute force power. They have the "DFR" tech thing, so they reverse for a few seconds to remove dust. And the blades are detachable for easy cleaning.
> 
> http://www.enermaxusa.com/product.php?pid=84772916#!/D.F. Storm/p/84772916
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147155


I haven't worked on rack mounted system in 17 years, and then it was commercial stuff. I have no experience with these D.F.Storm fans, but they seem to have a lot of gimmicks that make for nice advertising hype but have little function. 
To me the reversing fan is more gimmick than really being very functional. I don't think fan blowing backwards is going to do much 'cleaning'. 
The removable impeller might end up coming loose when not wanted. 
With PWM to control fan speed the APS speed control won't be all that functional .. maybe usable to fine tune individual fans' speeds. 
They use so much power that they can't be powered by normal fan header and have to be used with included power / PWM splitter adapter.
Maybe I'm just being too critical, but that's my first impression of them. That kind of extreme hi-performance might be great for server farms where they cram all kinds of equipment into small rack mounted systems that require these ultra-extreme fans to move enough air through them while tech need to wear ear protection when in the room. In a home enviroment you will likely have neighbors complaining about the jet engine / drone like sounds coming from your place.


----------



## bloodyredd

Are thermalright fans comparable to phantek and noctua fans?


----------



## doyll

bloodyredd said:


> Are thermalright fans comparable to phantek and noctua fans?


Your question is not easy to answer because each of the above companies has many different fans. It's kind of like asking if Ford cars are comparable to Chevy and Dodge or if Dunlop tires are comparable to Michelin and Yokohama.

I've found the TY-140, TY-143, TY-147, TY-147A, TY-147B, TY-149, TY-147A SQ TY-143SQ, TY-14013, TY-127, TY-141, TY-141SQ, TY-100, etc. to all be quite good. I've also found PH-F120SP, XP & MP, PH-F140SP, XP, MP, HP & HP_II .. and NF-A14, 15, as well as some others to be good.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Thanks for the feedback doyll!


----------



## paskowitz

Luckily it's an easy return, but... apparently doyll's clear warnings were not enough for me... you CANNOT use eLoops with ANY obstruction on the intake side. From something as innocuous as a fan mount or a Phanteks Halo fan frame to something more obvious like a radiator... the front of these fans must be totally unobstructed. If they are obstructed, the turbulence noise they make is terrible. 



It's a damn shame because they look amazing and push a ton of air quietly (in the right conditions).


----------



## ciarlatano

paskowitz said:


> Luckily it's an easy return, but... apparently doyll's clear warnings were not enough for me... you CANNOT use eLoops with ANY obstruction on the intake side. From something as innocuous as a fan mount or a Phanteks Halo fan frame to something more obvious like a radiator... the front of these fans must be totally unobstructed. If they are obstructed, the turbulence noise they make is terrible.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a damn shame because they look amazing and push a ton of air quietly (in the right conditions).


Am I gathering that the issue you have is with Halos? I wouldn't have thought they would have done it. But, yeah, the noise eLoops make with intake restriction is nasty.


----------



## paskowitz

ciarlatano said:


> Am I gathering that the issue you have is with Halos? I wouldn't have thought they would have done it. But, yeah, the noise eLoops make with intake restriction is nasty.



Yeah. I knew they shouldn't be used as exhaust on a rad, but I didn't think Halos would be an issue. Wrong. I think the problem is the blade design. The area between the blade loop and the frame seems to be the source of the issue. If you put something over the center but not the edges, it doesn't make any additional noise. But even putting your finger over the edge you can hear the difference. I'd love to see a CFD of this fan.


----------



## doyll

paskowitz said:


> Yeah. I knew they shouldn't be used as exhaust on a rad, but I didn't think Halos would be an issue. Wrong. I think the problem is the blade design. The area between the blade loop and the frame seems to be the source of the issue. If you put something over the center but not the edges, it doesn't make any additional noise. But even putting your finger over the edge you can hear the difference. I'd love to see a CFD of this fan.


I might be wrong but I'm guessing eLoops as exhaust / pull is the issue, not the Halos. Phanteks Halos should only be acting as a spacer and shouldn't be creating any airflow restriction. Did you try the eLoops with only the Halos? Just fan and Halo with no radiator.


----------



## lolvst_t

Realistically, how much is there to gain by adding a bottom intake fan?

I've been reading this thread quite a bit and am considering a meshify c with 4 intakes (2 front 140mm, 1 bottom 120mm, 1 top 140 mm - before the cpu cooler). All Silent wings 3 as those are the best I can find for a reasonable price in Australia. No exhaust and no pci slot covers. CPU is 8700k and cooler is the R1 Universal. Thoughts? 
Putting a bottom intake on that computer case means no 3.5" drives and I think I'm okay with that if there's a solid improvement of a few degrees celsius.


----------



## turboman

I use 2 14cm Eloops on a Noctua NH-D15S twin tower cooler. So the fan in the middle has an obstruction on the intake side. But I do not notice any negative effect on noise.


----------



## Gilles3000

lolvst_t said:


> Realistically, how much is there to gain by adding a bottom intake fan?
> 
> I've been reading this thread quite a bit and am considering a Meshify C.


Do you already have the Meshify C? Because I don't think the PSU shroud is removable(unless you want to drill out the rivets), A fan under there wouldn't help a whole lot I think.


----------



## lolvst_t

There is a removable fan sized panel.

See here:
https://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/...-Mini-Chassis-Review-on-KitGuru-Front-Fan.jpg


----------



## Gilles3000

lolvst_t said:


> There is a removable fan sized panel.


I know, but ideally, you'd want that fan to be as close to the PSU as possible (the bottom fan mount has slots instead of holes). This way you disturb the front airflow less and get more airflow to the GPU. 

If you were to slide it back, the fan would be half covered by the shroud if I'm seeing it correctly. Even if you were to put it all the way at the front, you'd still trap a lot of airflow/airblow under the shroud. And I don't think that removable panel was ever intended for airflow, just to allow bigger radiators to fit.


----------



## doyll

lolvst_t said:


> Realistically, how much is there to gain by adding a bottom intake fan?
> 
> I've been reading this thread quite a bit and am considering a meshify c with 4 intakes (2 front 140mm, 1 bottom 120mm, 1 top 140 mm - before the cpu cooler). All Silent wings 3 as those are the best I can find for a reasonable price in Australia. No exhaust and no pci slot covers. CPU is 8700k and cooler is the R1 Universal. Thoughts?
> Putting a bottom intake on that computer case means no 3.5" drives and I think I'm okay with that if there's a solid improvement of a few degrees celsius.


Sounds like it's setup well now.
Silent Wings 3 fans are arguably the best.

Are you monitoring case airflow temps into coolers? 

I 'm guessing the top intake is likely disrupting smooth front to back airflow. 

What Gilles3000 said. 

Bottom 120mm intake (if not blocked by PSU & cables) flows up into GPU so not as disruptive as top intake. First you say 120mm bottom intake, then say putting bottom intake on case means no 3.5" drives .. so is do you have bottom intake or not? 

Raise up on taller feet / open center caster base so there is more airflow area to bottom vents. 

Maybe change R1 Universal fan/s to something better? It's 25.4mm thick fan is okay but the thin front fan is not as good.

Monitoring case airflow temps and experimenting is key to finding out what and how much improvement is possible .. which is why I asked about monitoring airflow temps into cooler fans.


----------



## doyll

turboman said:


> I use 2 14cm Eloops on a Noctua NH-D15S twin tower cooler. So the fan in the middle has an obstruction on the intake side. But I do not notice any negative effect on noise.


Fan in the middle is not being obstructed by front finpack and fan, it is being augmented by front fan's airflow with finpack straightening airflow into middle fan. 

Also air cooler finpack is not as restrictive as a radiator with eLoop in push pull .. and I think paskowitz only had eLoops as pull, not push/pull on radiator.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Do you already have the Meshify C? Because I don't think the PSU shroud is removable(unless you want to drill out the rivets), A fan under there wouldn't help a whole lot I think.





lolvst_t said:


> There is a removable fan sized panel.
> 
> See here:
> https://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/...-Mini-Chassis-Review-on-KitGuru-Front-Fan.jpg


Isn't there also a vent grill over PSU part of shroud?

But I agree with Gilles3000, ideally removing shrould will give much better airflow .. at least twice as much up into GPU. Grills not only restrict airflow because of limited airflow area, but also because of airflow turbulence created by the mesh. Silverstone's and Puget Systems' test results of grill airflow restriction linked below might be of interest.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22657923-post15.html


----------



## lolvst_t

Apologies if I was unclear guys. I have the case and everything setup now with no bottom intake. Works pretty well and I'm overall quite satisfied (removing the PCI covers did a lot, and the exhaust fan is completely pointless if PCI covers are removed so that's a win). I wanted to consult you on whether throwing my 3.5" drive and cage and adding one 120mm fan instead will give me better temps or help all the other fans and GPU fans run a little slower. (so same temp but at lower RPM). Hope I cleared it up 

Anyway, if I understand correctly, using that panel as-is for intake will not work particularly well for me and if I want to go for something similar that might actually work, removing the shroud is the way to go but that will require drilling? What about "compartmentalizing" the shroud with a piece of cardboard or something so no air from the bottom fan will "leak" into the shroud but go straight into the rest of the case? Am I overthinking this?  

Why would turbulence of fresh cold air before the CPU or GPU matter? I thought that as long as the fans have air to suck in it doesn't matter how the air flows into them? Turbulent or no.

I don't monitor case airflow temps into coolers, unfortunately. Thanks for the link though, I'll check it out!

Should have gotten a silverstone primera pm01


----------



## doyll

lolvst_t said:


> Apologies if I was unclear guys. I have the case and everything setup now with no bottom intake. Works pretty well and I'm overall quite satisfied (removing the PCI covers did a lot, and the exhaust fan is completely pointless if PCI covers are removed so that's a win). I wanted to consult you on whether throwing my 3.5" drive and cage and adding one 120mm fan instead will give me better temps or help all the other fans and GPU fans run a little slower. (so same temp but at lower RPM). Hope I cleared it up
> 
> Anyway, if I understand correctly, using that panel as-is for intake will not work particularly well for me and if I want to go for something similar that might actually work, removing the shroud is the way to go but that will require drilling? What about "compartmentalizing" the shroud with a piece of cardboard or something so no air from the bottom fan will "leak" into the shroud but go straight into the rest of the case? Am I overthinking this?
> 
> Why would turbulence of fresh cold air before the CPU or GPU matter? I thought that as long as the fans have air to suck in it doesn't matter how the air flows into them? Turbulent or no.
> 
> I don't monitor case airflow temps into coolers, unfortunately. Thanks for the link though, I'll check it out!
> 
> Should have gotten a silverstone primera pm01


You've got it right. You could try a bottom intake and monitor air temp into coolers to see if it helps. 

If you have basic and too skills drilling out pop-rivets is not a big deal. Here's youtube video of drilling off the head of pop rivet. I usually use a bit same size as hole rivit is in, so only the head comes off on bit, then I punch the rest of rivet out with hammer and punch.





Turbulent air is not flowing smoothly and requires more power / pressure to move on through case .. and if it's near heated air coming out of something it tends to mix with that heated air raising the air temp going to coolers .. and every degree warmer the air is going into cooler is almost exactly a degree hotter component will be at same fan speed. Maybe this video will help





Easy and low-cost way to monitor air temp is cheap digital indoor/outdoor wired sensor thermometer or aquarium / fridge wired sensor digital thermometer. Can be found on ebay, pet shop, even auto-parts accessory. Here's another link to what I use.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319171-post2.html

Please check out links before asking more questions. They often explain things .. which is why I include them.


----------



## lolvst_t

Thanks for the help, very much appreciate it!


----------



## marik123

I recently ditched my Corsair carbide spec-01 case for a Phanteks Enthoo PRO M case with 3x Rosewill Hyperborea (high flow) and a used Bequiet Dark Rock Pro 4 cooler for my current set up. I have 2 intake fans and 1 exhaust rear fan, with CPU fan speed set to max and case fan set to 1000 RPM for low noise. Is there any thing else I can do to improve the temperature inside other than set my fan speed to maximum speed?

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...uNYkmx02SSoZn0mvh1BoCTaYQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


----------



## JackCY

I think biggest improvement would be from taking a hammer and smashing the glass side panel off. That way you gain some actual air intake. I don't see any front or bottom intake, certainly not a functional one.
A more work demanding solution other than removing side panel is to cut intake and exhaust holes for all fans, remove any grills and make intakes where no intakes are present for fans.


----------



## Moparman

I like my 2 Rosewill cases for the airflow options they have. The Blackhawk ultra in the config i have now has a total of 21 case fans and 3 120s on my Air cooler. The Rise is being modded to get rid of the stupid side window so it can hold 4 140mm so it will have 2x 140mm top 3x 120mm front, 1x 140mm rear.


----------



## lightsout

JackCY said:


> I think biggest improvement would be from taking a hammer and smashing the glass side panel off. That way you gain some actual air intake. I don't see any front or bottom intake, certainly not a functional one.
> A more work demanding solution other than removing side panel is to cut intake and exhaust holes for all fans, remove any grills and make intakes where no intakes are present for fans.


The front of the case is vented with a screen.


----------



## JackCY

Dust filter and a screen? OK so maybe the front fans get some airflow but small.


----------



## ciarlatano

marik123 said:


> I recently ditched my Corsair carbide spec-01 case for a Phanteks Enthoo PRO M case with 3x Rosewill Hyperborea (high flow) and a used Bequiet Dark Rock Pro 4 cooler for my current set up. I have 2 intake fans and 1 exhaust rear fan, with CPU fan speed set to max and case fan set to 1000 RPM for low noise. Is there any thing else I can do to improve the temperature inside other than set my fan speed to maximum speed?
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...uNYkmx02SSoZn0mvh1BoCTaYQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


A couple of things.

1. Put the Phanteks fans back in the front intake position.
2. Raise the aforementioned Phanteks fans to the upper two mounting positions so all of the air is directed above the PSU shroud and can be used by the CPU and GPU coolers.
3. Do not smash glass as @JackCY suggested, it makes a huge mess, and you will likely step on a stray splinter in the middle of the night when you get up to use the lavatory.
4. Did I mention putting the Phanteks fans back in the front?


----------



## marik123

ciarlatano said:


> A couple of things.
> 
> 1. Put the Phanteks fans back in the front intake position.
> 2. Raise the aforementioned Phanteks fans to the upper two mounting positions so all of the air is directed above the PSU shroud and can be used by the CPU and GPU coolers.
> 3. Do not smash glass as @JackCY suggested, it makes a huge mess, and you will likely step on a stray splinter in the middle of the night when you get up to use the lavatory.
> 4. Did I mention putting the Phanteks fans back in the front?


I do have 2x Rosewill Hyperborea 140mm fan in front for the intake. It's in black color and can't be seen easily. Airflow wise is higher than the 2 stock Phanteks fan. But the bottom front intake fan is position to cool the hard drive below. I can follow your advice and raise the fan up, but then the top intake fan will be partially blocked due to the case design. Will that be better? The case I got have the clear plastic panel as the temper glass version is too expensive.

https://bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/cases/phanteks-enthoo-pro-m-tempered-glass-review/1/


----------



## specialedge

Moparman said:


> I like my 2 Rosewill cases for the airflow options they have. The Blackhawk ultra in the config i have now has a total of 21 case fans and 3 120s on my Air cooler. The Rise is being modded to get rid of the stupid side window so it can hold 4 140mm so it will have 2x 140mm top 3x 120mm front, 1x 140mm rear.


Can you please, please show us your case with 21 fans?? 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## specialedge

marik123 said:


> I do have 2x Rosewill Hyperborea 140mm fan in front for the intake. It's in black color and can't be seen easily. Airflow wise is higher than the 2 stock Phanteks fan. But the bottom front intake fan is position to cool the hard drive below. I can follow your advice and raise the fan up, but then the top intake fan will be partially blocked due to the case design. Will that be better? The case I got have the clear plastic panel as the temper glass version is too expensive.
> 
> https://bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/cases/phanteks-enthoo-pro-m-tempered-glass-review/1/


Are you able to put washers on the front panel mounts to allow more ingress for airflow?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## JackCY

marik123 said:


> The case I got have the clear plastic panel as the temper glass version is too expensive.





ciarlatano said:


> 3. Do not smash glass as @JackCY suggested, it makes a huge mess, and you will likely step on a stray splinter in the middle of the night when you get up to use the lavatory.


False.

---

Remove bottom shroud and HDDs blocking intake. Cut out all grills on intake and exhaust fan positions you use. Simplify the front intake to use only a filter not a filter and cosmetic mesh. Could also convert front intake to 3x120mm or even 3x140mm. Cut a hole for bottom intake fan and raise the case up from ground.


----------



## Moparman

specialedge said:


> Can you please, please show us your case with 21 fans??
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



It's super dirty but yes as soon as i'm back from my Trip I'll take a couple pics. If you look at the pics you can see all the locations. Newegg is wrong about the bottom as it can support 3 120mm also not just 2. The top can fit 2 120mm with my Zx1250w Psu top mounted also. 



https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...sewill_blackhawk_ultra-_-11-147-157-_-Product


----------



## specialedge

Moparman said:


> It's super dirty but yes as soon as i'm back from my Trip I'll take a couple pics. If you look at the pics you can see all the locations. Newegg is wrong about the bottom as it can support 3 120mm also not just 2. The top can fit 2 120mm with my Zx1250w Psu top mounted also.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...sewill_blackhawk_ultra-_-11-147-157-_-Product


Wow that is a brilliant airflow case. I have always been skeptical of rosehill brand based upon a power supply I once bought secondhand (go figure...) but that case is amazing.

I am air cooling an fx8300 in thermaltake v71 core with 4x200mm intake fans, nh-d15 dual fan for CPU, and even the little 40mm noctua flx for my sabertooth 990fx vrm heatsink (behind the I/O panel), and despite all the air cooling capability I have, I am missing the mounting point for a fan on the backside of the motherboard socket. 

Even with excessive vcore settings (1.55v+) I am unable to achieve stability at 25x 200fsb overclocking, which i attribute to the vrm temps. Its weird, the system goes black at load with vrms below 65c, but when I dial OC down to 4.7ghz at 1.425v, the vrms will begin to exceed 70-80c without failing. I'm still working on this this week.


BUT! I am sure with that case's side panel I would have a slightly easier time! Very cool.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## ciarlatano

specialedge said:


> Even with excessive vcore settings (1.55v+) I am unable to achieve stability at 25x 200fsb overclocking, which i attribute to the vrm temps. Its weird, the system goes black at load with vrms below 65c, but when I dial OC down to 4.7ghz at 1.425v, the vrms will begin to exceed 70-80c without failing. I'm still working on this this week.


That really simply sounds like you have one of the vast majority of FX-83XX chips that simply can't get past ~4.7-4.8 at any voltage. Visheras that clock higher are few and far between.


----------



## lightsout

JackCY said:


> False.
> 
> ---
> 
> Remove bottom shroud and HDDs blocking intake. Cut out all grills on intake and exhaust fan positions you use. Simplify the front intake to use only a filter not a filter and cosmetic mesh. Could also convert front intake to 3x120mm or even 3x140mm. Cut a hole for bottom intake fan and raise the case up from ground.


Why in the world would you want to mutilate the case for a couple C difference, it's not like these cases don't get adequate airflow. Remove the bottom shroud? Thats one of the highlights of the case. I don't understand this logic, if all you care about is airflow then just get a test bench and a box fan and be done with it.


----------



## JackCY

The question was:



> Is there any thing else I can do to improve the temperature inside other than set my fan speed to maximum speed?


And yes there is.


----------



## doyll

marik123 said:


> I recently ditched my Corsair carbide spec-01 case for a Phanteks Enthoo PRO M case with 3x Rosewill Hyperborea (high flow) and a used Bequiet Dark Rock Pro 4 cooler for my current set up. I have 2 intake fans and 1 exhaust rear fan, with CPU fan speed set to max and case fan set to 1000 RPM for low noise. Is there any thing else I can do to improve the temperature inside other than set my fan speed to maximum speed?
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...uNYkmx02SSoZn0mvh1BoCTaYQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


What ciarlatano said. The included stock case fans are very good and with them mounted as front intakes should give you good airflow. Make sure you keep the intake filter clean. 

And remove all PCIe back slot covers so there is more back vent area around GPU. This allows better front to back airflow and results in front intakes being able to do a better job of flowing air from front to back of case and moving GPU heated exhaust air back and out of case without mixing with and heating the cool intake airflow going to CPU cooler.


----------



## 8051

Moparman said:


> It's super dirty but yes as soon as i'm back from my Trip I'll take a couple pics. If you look at the pics you can see all the locations. Newegg is wrong about the bottom as it can support 3 120mm also not just 2. The top can fit 2 120mm with my Zx1250w Psu top mounted also.
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...sewill_blackhawk_ultra-_-11-147-157-_-Product


Talk about airflow. I can only imagine what the power draw for all those fans must be on take-off. Do the lights flicker when you power it up?

So the two PSU's can be installed in the top-back and bottom-back of the case?


----------



## Moparman

8051 said:


> Talk about airflow. I can only imagine what the power draw for all those fans must be on take-off. Do the lights flicker when you power it up?
> 
> So the two PSU's can be installed in the top-back and bottom-back of the case?



Yes the power draw from fans alone is like 7 amps total. As for power supplies you can mount in top or bottom or Both. When I had my SR2 with 4x GTX 480s in the case a few years back I used a 1250W top and 1000W bottom.


----------



## lightsout

Moparman said:


> When I had my SR2 with 4x GTX 480s in the case a few years back I used a 1250W top and 1000W bottom.


Holy power overload, 4 x gtx 480's! Thats a ton of heat to get rid of. Loved those SR-2 boards! Always wanted one back in the day.


----------



## thomasck

Guys, what do you think about a third fan on the top of the Corsair 460X? There is space available, I'm able to fit it but I just cant realise if is reliable or not. My guess is it is going to pull out the intake cold air from the 1st front fan. Agreed? Another point is with the top filter placed, the top fans don't really pull the air out so a third fan would help with this "issue".

Any thoughts?



Spoiler


----------



## ciarlatano

thomasck said:


> Guys, what do you think about a third fan on the top of the Corsair 460X? There is space available, I'm able to fit it but I just cant realise if is reliable or not. My guess is it is going to pull out the intake cold air from the 1st front fan. Agreed? Another point is with the top filter placed, the top fans don't really pull the air out so a third fan would help with this "issue".
> 
> Any thoughts?


Be honest, is this an airflow question or an "I want more lights question"?

From an airflow perspective, I would be inclined to try _removing_ all of the top fans, not adding to them. You have a restricted intake with marginal intake fans, so that R1 is already probably (it's more than "probably") starved for cool air, and the top exhaust fans aren't helping matters.

If it's more lights you want, try keeping the lights on for the fans, but set the curve so the fans themselves don't run. Or just buy a couple of LED strips.


----------



## thomasck

ciarlatano said:


> Be honest, is this an airflow question or an "I want more lights question"?
> 
> 
> 
> From an airflow perspective, I would be inclined to try _removing_ all of the top fans, not adding to them. You have a restricted intake with marginal intake fans, so that R1 is already probably (it's more than "probably") starved for cool air, and the top exhaust fans aren't helping matters.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's more lights you want, try keeping the lights on for the fans, but set the curve so the fans themselves don't run. Or just buy a couple of LED strips.


Is an question of "I've got in spare fan, and I've got space", not a light thing otherwise I could just add some led strip and that's it.

I've always thought those 3 front fans were enough to intake air. The top ones are kinda blocked by the filter, it's noticeable the increment of the air being pushed out without it. 


I don't really plan getting rid of those top fans, but I'd remove the third top one if you guys also think it's not beneficial in any point.



Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

thomasck said:


> Guys, what do you think about a third fan on the top of the Corsair 460X? There is space available, I'm able to fit it but I just cant realise if is reliable or not. My guess is it is going to pull out the intake cold air from the 1st front fan. Agreed? Another point is with the top filter placed, the top fans don't really pull the air out so a third fan would help with this "issue".
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


What cairlatano said. 

What are all those lights? I mean what fans are all those lights in? What are their specificatons?

Adding more fans just because you have spare fans generally does not improve case airflow

What you have is what I call air*blow* instead of air*flow*. '

The front most top fan is drawing the air out that is coming in the front fans before it even reaches anything to cool. 

The middle top fan is trying to pull air out the side of cooler and middle cooler fan so again not doing anything helpful.

The top fan at back is fighting with the rear exhaut fan to see which one can get the air coming out back of cooler. 

Have you read 5th post in this tread? It is a basic guide to how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow. https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319249-post5.html


----------



## ciarlatano

thomasck said:


> Is an question of "I've got in spare fan, and I've got space", not a light thing otherwise I could just add some led strip and that's it.
> 
> I've always thought those 3 front fans were enough to intake air. The top ones are kinda blocked by the filter, it's noticeable the increment of the air being pushed out without it.
> 
> 
> I don't really plan getting rid of those top fans, but I'd remove the third top one if you guys also think it's not beneficial in any point.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk


Three top quality 120mm should provide enough air for the R1+GPU in a setup where they are not restricted. You are adding in quite a bit of restriction with the front of that case, and have fans that don't fare very well with restriction. So, when you add it up....
@doyll already covered why your top fans are a hindrance to airflow, and why adding more produces less. Except lights, you do get more lights.


----------



## thomasck

doyll said:


> What cairlatano said.
> 
> What are all those lights? I mean what fans are all those lights in? What are their specificatons?
> 
> Adding more fans just because you have spare fans generally does not improve case airflow
> 
> What you have is what I call air*blow* instead of air*flow*. '
> 
> The front most top fan is drawing the air out that is coming in the front fans before it even reaches anything to cool.
> 
> The middle top fan is trying to pull air out the side of cooler and middle cooler fan so again not doing anything helpful.
> 
> The top fan at back is fighting with the rear exhaut fan to see which one can get the air coming out back of cooler.
> 
> Have you read 5th post in this tread? It is a basic guide to how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow. https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319249-post5.html



They are SP120 + HD120, since I build up this rig did not have any time to test temperatures, oc, benchs, which I'm doing it now, exactly one year after purchasing it. I'm also reading your thread about ways of cooling, thanks for all that! 



ciarlatano said:


> Three top quality 120mm should provide enough air for the R1+GPU in a setup where they are not restricted. You are adding in quite a bit of restriction with the front of that case, and have fans that don't fare very well with restriction. So, when you add it up....
> 
> @doyll already covered why your top fans are a hindrance to airflow, and why adding more produces less. Except lights, you do get more lights.


I'm trying all that right now. All front ones, or all top, following the tips from "Ways to Better Cooling" thread. Its hard do see a big difference in numbers, but I'm trying. Later on I'll do lapping on the R1, just for fun and to remember almost 20 years ago when I 1st did it.


----------



## doyll

thomasck said:


> They are SP120 + HD120, since I build up this rig did not have any time to test temperatures, oc, benchs, which I'm doing it now, exactly one year after purchasing it. I'm also reading your thread about ways of cooling, thanks for all that!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying all that right now. All front ones, or all top, following the tips from "Ways to Better Cooling" thread. Its hard do see a big difference in numbers, but I'm trying. Later on I'll do lapping on the R1, just for fun and to remember almost 20 years ago when I 1st did it.


"Ways to Better Cooling" thread recommends not using top fans. It also recommends monitoring airflow temp into component/s coolers in real time when load testing component/s to determine how well case airflow is supplying components' with air close to room temp. 

Lapping will only work well when both CPU and cooler are lapped perfectly flat.


----------



## TeslaHUN

thomasck said:


> Guys, what do you think about a third fan on the top of the Corsair 460X? There is space available, I'm able to fit it but I just cant realise if is reliable or not. My guess is it is going to pull out the intake cold air from the 1st front fan. Agreed? Another point is with the top filter placed, the top fans don't really pull the air out so a third fan would help with this "issue".
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Well i had 460x in past ,with Tower Cooler (TR Macho, then later with AIO (H105) . I tested many fan config , and best was : 
3x good quality intake and 1x exhaust at back for tower cooler 
1additional exhaust if needed on top with AIO on front .
And cover/tape off the whole top section so the airflow from front cannot escape before reaching the VGA / CPU cooler . (both for air or AIO cooling)
And dont worry when ppl say front is restrictive,they didnt see the 460x in person, only in pictures . Its front is not closed that much , there is decent 2,5cm gap between the front glassl and the case,more then enough.


----------



## thomasck

Yeah, I guess it's the kind of thing you've said. Perhaps many stuff around here would apply to most of the cases, or not, is very relative. Doyll and ciarlatano seems to know and understand a lot of air dynamics and stuff but sometimes it does not apply. I've tried the recommendations and didn't notice any increase in the temps performance. I do agree the front of the 460X is not restrictive, at least does not feel. I set the way it was, 3 top 3 front 1 rear. Front and cpu fan go to max rpm after 55c, top ones aways 20% but when above 60C go 75% and rear one follows the cpu fan. Thanks for your input!

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

thomasck said:


> Yeah, I guess it's the kind of thing you've said. Perhaps many stuff around here would apply to most of the cases, or not, is very relative. Doyll and ciarlatano seems to know and understand a lot of air dynamics and stuff but sometimes it does not apply. I've tried the recommendations and didn't notice any increase in the temps performance. I do agree the front of the 460X is not restrictive, at least does not feel. I set the way it was, 3 top 3 front 1 rear. Front and cpu fan go to max rpm after 55c, top ones aways 20% but when above 60C go 75% and rear one follows the cpu fan. Thanks for your input!
> 
> Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk


Airflow is a fickled witch often doing what we don't expect. While we can usually figure out why we end up with the airflow we have, it is not as easy to predict what that airflow will be before trying it out. Just monitoring component temp when setting up case airflow is good, but monitoring case airflow temp into cooler is better .. which is why I monitor airflow temperature and how fast the air is moving through a given cooler .. that combined with how well cooler preforms determines component temperature. Case airflow has to be matched to airflow used by component at all times .. we want case airflow to match component needs from component fan at idle to component fan full speed, not just at full speed.


----------



## quietpressure

Which is better on a heatsink like Fuma? Pull-pull or push-pull?


----------



## deepor

I vaguely remember some testing with I think an NH-D14, and both fans mounted as "push" on each tower is best. I mean, the second fan should be touching the second tower so that there's a tiny gap between it and the first tower. The way I remember, this is more about preventing a strange noise from happening, not so much about temperatures.


----------



## jfriend00

*Direct shroud for CPU air right out of rear grill?*

I have an i7-9700k, air cooled with Noctua NH-D15 with their dual AF-A15 fans (push/pull) in a Fractal Design - Define R6 Mid Tower Case. The CPU cooler fans point pretty much at the rear case fan, not perfect inline with them, but close. 

It occurs to me that it might be more efficient for everything if the CPU cooler had a shroud from the last fan directly out the rear grill (no more need for the case fan in that rear grill) as this would prevent any change of air recirculation after air goes through the CPU cooler. So, as air comes out of the CPU cooler, it would be inside a shroud that leads directly to the rear grill and out the case.

After reading this giant thread, I'm absolutely getting the point that you don't want hot air that comes out of a CPU cooler circulating around in the case and it seems like the shroud would prevent that entirely. It would also eliminate a case fan that could perhaps be employed elsewhere to draw more cool air in.

Another supporting point for this is that this is largely how PSU's circulate air now. They pull in air from inside the case and exhaust it right out of the case. Some even pull outside air and exhaust it from the case so they don't even mess with case air.

Does this make sense? Does anyone make some sort of flexible shroud material that I could craft a shroud from the cooler to the rear case grill?


----------



## ciarlatano

jfriend00 said:


> I have an i7-9700k, air cooled with Noctua NH-D15 with their dual AF-A15 fans (push/pull) in a Fractal Design - Define R6 Mid Tower Case. The CPU cooler fans point pretty much at the rear case fan, not perfect inline with them, but close.
> 
> It occurs to me that it might be more efficient for everything if the CPU cooler had a shroud from the last fan directly out the rear grill (no more need for the case fan in that rear grill) as this would prevent any change of air recirculation after air goes through the CPU cooler. So, as air comes out of the CPU cooler, it would be inside a shroud that leads directly to the rear grill and out the case.
> 
> After reading this giant thread, I'm absolutely getting the point that you don't want hot air that comes out of a CPU cooler circulating around in the case and it seems like the shroud would prevent that entirely. It would also eliminate a case fan that could perhaps be employed elsewhere to draw more cool air in.
> 
> Another supporting point for this is that this is largely how PSU's circulate air now. They pull in air from inside the case and exhaust it right out of the case. Some even pull outside air and exhaust it from the case so they don't even mess with case air.
> 
> Does this make sense? Does anyone make some sort of flexible shroud material that I could craft a shroud from the cooler to the rear case grill?


Thermalright offers ducts for their coolers. https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-100700772-Fan-Duct-140/dp/B00O24R9U4

You may be able to adapt it.


----------



## doyll

quietpressure said:


> Which is better on a heatsink like Fuma? Pull-pull or push-pull?


Honestly it makes little to no difference. Most fans push air the same as the pull air. Some make a little more noise pulling than pushing. But even with fans that do show a difference in push vs pull the differnce is 1-2c at most .. an amount that if it does matter then optimizing case airflow can almost always give 5-15c better temps. 

In other words it's way more important to make sure cooler is getting air less than 3-5c warmer than room when system is working hard than if cooler fans are pull/pull vs push/push. 

5th post in this thead is about how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow.


----------



## jfriend00

ciarlatano said:


> Thermalright offers ducts for their coolers. https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-100700772-Fan-Duct-140/dp/B00O24R9U4
> 
> You may be able to adapt it.


That's what I was looking for. I'll see if I can figure out whether that would work or not. Thx.


----------



## doyll

jfriend00 said:


> I have an i7-9700k, air cooled with Noctua NH-D15 with their dual AF-A15 fans (push/pull) in a Fractal Design - Define R6 Mid Tower Case. The CPU cooler fans point pretty much at the rear case fan, not perfect inline with them, but close.
> 
> It occurs to me that it might be more efficient for everything if the CPU cooler had a shroud from the last fan directly out the rear grill (no more need for the case fan in that rear grill) as this would prevent any change of air recirculation after air goes through the CPU cooler. So, as air comes out of the CPU cooler, it would be inside a shroud that leads directly to the rear grill and out the case.
> 
> After reading this giant thread, I'm absolutely getting the point that you don't want hot air that comes out of a CPU cooler circulating around in the case and it seems like the shroud would prevent that entirely. It would also eliminate a case fan that could perhaps be employed elsewhere to draw more cool air in.
> 
> Another supporting point for this is that this is largely how PSU's circulate air now. They pull in air from inside the case and exhaust it right out of the case. Some even pull outside air and exhaust it from the case so they don't even mess with case air.
> 
> Does this make sense? Does anyone make some sort of flexible shroud material that I could craft a shroud from the cooler to the rear case grill?


The link below is to a basic guide of how to make airflow ducts from fill-folder material. Make a pattern, cut pieces and glue with gluestick, then spray-paint. I often cut and glue pieces to get a working duct, them cut that and lay flat to make a nicer looking one. 
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22919853-post17.html


----------



## Gilles3000

Alternatively, you can also use foam-board, its cheap and super easy to work with. Really easy to make a rigid structure out of as well. That's why its pretty popular with model aircraft builders and model makers in general.


Plenty of videos out there on how to work with it, and most craft/hobby stores have it, even some hardware stores.


----------



## doyll

Foam-board or similar from hobby shops works well too. 

Unless you are good at measuring and cutting it right the first time, it might be easier to use something like some old file flolders and glue-stick to make one first, then use that for patterns for foam-board pieces.


----------



## danielhowk

doyll said:


> *How airflow works*


read this, but still unsure,
so if im not wrong the most optimal and best solution is just having 2 fans in front of the case for intake and just 1 fan at the bottom for intake for the gpu and zero fans at the back of the cpu case ( where the cpu fans at the back is the exhaust)?

i wont require any fans to be at the top and the back of the case right? sorry im still confuse about this


----------



## doyll

danielhowk said:


> read this, but still unsure,
> so if im not wrong the most optimal and best solution is just having 2 fans in front of the case for intake and just 1 fan at the bottom for intake for the gpu and zero fans at the back of the cpu case ( where the cpu fans at the back is the exhaust)?
> 
> i wont require any fans to be at the top and the back of the case right? sorry im still confuse about this


No top fans, just good pressure rated intake in front, remove all PCIe back slot covers and you shouldn't need rear exhaust fan. The front intakes push air all from front to cooler and on out the back. All air entering the case has to leave case, so good intakes are usually all that is needed.


----------



## danielhowk

doyll said:


> *How airflow works*
> *Airflow is simply displacement; for air to come into case, air must be leaving case .. or .. for air to leave the case, air must be coming into case.*
> Think of the air around us as water and we are divers in it and a sunken van is a computer case.
> 
> We can't move more water into the van (case) through an open window (vent) unless we have another open window (vent) somewhere else in the van (case) moving the same amount of water (air) out through a window on other side of van (case).
> We can't take any water out of van unless we have the same amount of water coming in at the same time.
> This means we have to have as many open windows flowing water into van as we have open windows flowing water out.
> This is exactly how airflow works. Intake fan pushing / flowing air into case is pushing / flowing the same amount of air out of case.
> Adding an exhaust fan can help case airflow, same as adding a back fan on some coolers.
> But with good case intake fans we don't need exhaust fans, same as good cooler / radiator fans don't need pull fans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I used to always change stock intake fans. Now some cases are finally coming with intake fans that have high enough pressure ratings to not need 'helper' (exhaust) fans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Setting up a case for optimum cooling*
> 
> Setting up the case for optimum cooling is often the hardest and most time consuming part of a build... And the most neglected by most builders.
> 
> There is much more to cooling than good cases and good CPU / GPU coolers. Add the fact that many GPU's make more heat than CPU means getting that heat out of the case and keeping a cool airflow to components can be a challenge.
> Cases, especially those with filters, usually benefit from fans with higher static pressure ratings than stock fans... "cooler" fans instead of "case" fans.
> Intakes typically have more restricted than exhaust because of air filters, more restrictive grills, HDD cages, etc.
> I prefer mostly just good pressure rated intake fans and rarely use exhaust fans anymore .. but instead use high enough pressure rated intake fans with exhaust vents being the only other openings in case. This allows intake fans to push air though the case and out. And don't confuse number of fans with amount of airflow... don't confuse air*flow* with air*blow*
> air*flow* is flowing cool air from intake to component and then flowing component's hot air on out of case without that heated air mixing with the cool air and warming the air going into component.
> air*blow* is lots of fans blowing air around, both cool and hot air from components allowing them to mix and raise the air temp going into components .. because basically every degree warmer the air into component cooler results in component being a degree hotterl.
> Putting in good intake fans in case and maybe exhaust is only the first step. These fans only move air in and out of case.
> This does not mean heated air is not mixing with cool air.
> Nor does it mean cool air is going to where it is needed.
> Getting the air to flow inside of case properly is even more important. We still need to manage where the air flows inside the case. We can do this several ways; deflectors, more intake fans.. & maybe exhaust fans, removing vent grills, removing HDD cage/s, using fans with higher pressure/airflow, building ducts to or from CPU/GPU cooler, etc.
> Using a remote temperature sensor to monitor what air temps are is the key to finding out where the cool air is flowing and knowing heated air is not mixing into it. By monitoring this we can than make changes to get airflow the way we want it.
> Keep in mind your case needs to flow more air than components do. It isn't so much how many fans but how well they flow air through the case. If component fans move more air than case fans move through case components are using their own heated exhaust to make up the difference and case heats up. Good rule of thumb is 25-50% more case cfm than component cfm but well tuned airflow can be almost equal equal.
> Traditional tower cooler exhausting toward back of case must have rear / rear & top back case venting airflow area equal to intake airflow area .. they need to be able to flow more air than components are using .. more cfm than cooler fans have.
> A duct from back of cooler to back of case (like Thermalright HR-22 uses) is also an option that works very well.
> *Example of Cool & Quiet System*
> 
> My Define R2 system has three TY-140 74cfm intake fans. (no exhaust fans) in case while CPU has TY-143 130cfm fan and GPU has two TY-100 44cfm fans
> Case = 222cfm
> Components = 218cfm
> Air temp inside of case going into coolers is never more than 3c above room.
> 2 front TY-140 1300rpm intake fans match airflow demands of CPU cooler TY-143 2500rpm fans, both PWM controlled by CPU fan header
> Bottom TY-140 intake fan supplies airflow demands of & GPU TY-100 fans and are PWM controlled by GPU
> 
> It is amazing how much cooler a system runs (and quieter) once the case airflow is setup to keep heated exhaust from contaminating cool intake air. Once we start doing these things, the concept seems like a no-brainer, yet most users seem to think more fans and/or powerful fans are needed to get better cooling. The reality is it's not so much the power and amount of air the fans move. but the currents / pathways the air flows in on it's way through the case that is important. Fan power/airflow only needs to be a little more than the amount the components are using at any given time. Using too many, fan and having too much airflow *airblow* can be as detrimental to case's flow pattern as not using fans with enough flow .. and if the flow isn't tuned to keep cool and heated air separate the system is not going run as cool as it can.
> 
> 
> *How to monitor air temperature different places inside of case:*
> 
> A cheap indoor/outdoor thermometer with a piece of insulated wire and a plastic clothspin works great.
> Made up with floral wire and tape. We don't want anything to short out with metal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clip and position sensor where I want to check the temp. Make it easy to see what the air temp going into components actually is relative to room temp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Optimum cooling is when air temps going into coolers only being 2-3c warmer than room.. 5c or less is good.


im buying a fractal design r6, should i buy 3x 120m for intake and 1x 120mm at the bottom? same like yours


----------



## doyll

danielhowk said:


> im buying a fractal design r6, should i buy 3x 120m for intake and 1x 120mm at the bottom? same like yours


I don't have Define R6. I have old Define R2 with 2x 140mm front and 1x 140mm bottom intakes, bottom vent & PSU grills and back vent grills are all cut out of case and case sets up on a caster base. This gives more airflow area to bottom vents. Below image is my Define R2 with 3x TY-140 intake fans (2x front and 1x bottom intakes).







[/URL]

Below image shows how extending case feet / putting case on open center caster base improves airflow to bottom vents:







[/URL]
Link to more info to how vent grills and filters restriction airflow
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22657923-post15.html

Link to more info about other and my Define R series case mods:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/23754692-post48.html


----------



## danielhowk

doyll said:


> I don't have Define R6. I have old Define R2 with 2x 140mm front and 1x 140mm bottom intakes, bottom vent & PSU grills and back vent grills are all cut out of case and case sets up on a caster base. This gives more airflow area to bottom vents. Below image is my Define R2 with 3x TY-140 intake fans (2x front and 1x bottom intakes).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]
> 
> Below image shows how extending case feet / putting case on open center caster base improves airflow to bottom vents:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]
> Link to more info to how vent grills and filters restriction airflow
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/22657923-post15.html
> 
> Link to more info about other and my Define R series case mods:
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/23754692-post48.html


Thank you so much  i understand now.
basically im buying s2 fractal design which of these fans are better for casing fans
is Noctua A-14PWM vs Noctua A12x25PWM which is better? yeah is exactly these 2 fans im getting, which of these 2 fans will be better for the pc case? 140mm vs the newer 120mm for pc case.
thanks for all the help


----------



## doyll

danielhowk said:


> Thank you so much  i understand now.
> basically im buying s2 fractal design which of these fans are better for casing fans
> is Noctua A-14PWM vs Noctua A12x25PWM which is better? yeah is exactly these 2 fans im getting, which of these 2 fans will be better for the pc case? 140mm vs the newer 120mm for pc case.
> thanks for all the help


I think NF-A12x25 PWM are a little better than NF-A14 PWM .. a little quieter with a little better flow and pressure. But you will need 3x NF-A12x25 fans to have same airflow as 2x NF-A14 PWM fans will. Why are you limiting your fan choices to just those two fans?


----------



## danielhowk

doyll said:


> I think NF-A12x25 PWM are a little better than NF-A14 PWM .. a little quieter with a little better flow and pressure. But you will need 3x NF-A12x25 fans to have same airflow as 2x NF-A14 PWM fans will. Why are you limiting your fan choices to just those two fans?


basically where i live the company shop im buying from, did a mistake, offering me either 5 pieces of nf a-14pwm or 5pieces of noctua nf-A12x25 for my fractal design s2 pc case,
i have to choose from, therefore i wanted to put 3x front intake , 1 bottom, 1 exhaust for my fractal design s2,
but which 5 pieces of fans should i go for, in this case particularly for my pc case s2 fractal design, should i go a-14pwm 5 pieces or a12x25 5 pieces? which is better for pc case cooling? this is going to compare 1 : 1 ratio between a14 vs a12x25 cause is the same amount of fans
hopefully u can reply by today, cause they have to order it tommorow


----------



## doyll

danielhowk said:


> basically where i live the company shop im buying from, did a mistake, offering me either 5 pieces of nf a-14pwm or 5pieces of noctua nf-A12x25 for my fractal design s2 pc case,
> i have to choose from, therefore i wanted to put 3x front intake , 1 bottom, 1 exhaust for my fractal design s2,
> but which 5 pieces of fans should i go for, in this case particularly for my pc case s2 fractal design, should i go a-14pwm 5 pieces or a12x25 5 pieces? which is better for pc case cooling? this is going to compare 1 : 1 ratio between a14 vs a12x25 cause is the same amount of fans
> hopefully u can reply by today, cause they have to order it tommorow


My bad, I didn't realize Define S2 can use 3x 140mm front intakes. 

What CPU and GPU coolers will you be using? Case airflow needs are dependent on component coolers being used. 

I would use 3x 140mm as front intakes as they should be all that is needed. If the PSU cover didn't block good airflow from bottom vent to GPU I would probably use a bottom intake, but it probably won't help with the PSU cover the way it is .. and 3x 140mm on front should supply all the cool air CPU and GPU coolers can use. If you do use a bottom intake I suggest raising case on taller feet or open center caster base.

Just because you can get 5 fans does not mean it's a good idea to use 5 fans. As a comparison, if you were offered 6 tires for your car would you try and put all size on the car?? .. or would you use 4 tires on the car and sell or store the extra 2? Or if you were offered 5x bicycle tires would you try and use all 5 or would you only use 2?


----------



## danielhowk

doyll said:


> My bad, I didn't realize Define S2 can use 3x 140mm front intakes.
> 
> What CPU and GPU coolers will you be using? Case airflow needs are dependent on component coolers being used.
> 
> I would use 3x 140mm as front intakes as they should be all that is needed. If the PSU cover didn't block good airflow from bottom vent to GPU I would probably use a bottom intake, but it probably won't help with the PSU cover the way it is .. and 3x 140mm on front should supply all the cool air CPU and GPU coolers can use. If you do use a bottom intake I suggest raising case on taller feet or open center caster base.
> 
> Just because you can get 5 fans does not mean it's a good idea to use 5 fans. As a comparison, if you were offered 6 tires for your car would you try and put all size on the car?? .. or would you use 4 tires on the car and sell or store the extra 2? Or if you were offered 5x bicycle tires would you try and use all 5 or would you only use 2?


no problem 
im using cpu i9 9900k, noctua d15
and gpu msi trio x 2080ti.
im not sure if i can remove the bottom psu cover though.
so is best to take the a14pwm 140mm fans over the newer better 120mm a12x25 right?


----------



## doyll

danielhowk said:


> no problem
> im using cpu i9 9900k, noctua d15
> and gpu msi trio x 2080ti.
> im not sure if i can remove the bottom psu cover though.
> so is best to take the a14pwm 140mm fans over the newer better 120mm a12x25 right?


No need to remove PSU cover. 3x 140mm front intakes will be fine.


----------



## danielhowk

doyll said:


> No need to remove PSU cover. 3x 140mm front intakes will be fine.


take the noctua A14-pwm over the noctua A15x25 right?
thank you doyll for always helping out


----------



## doyll

danielhowk said:


> so take Noctua A-14pwm 5pieces over the noctua a12x25 right?


It's time you start thinking and using all the info you have been given. 
Information like:
"2x 140mm fans move same amount of air as 3x 120mm fans."
"I would use 3x 140mm as front intakes as they should be all that is needed."​Look at the airflow, static pressure and noise level specification. We need case fans with about 1.5mm H2O or higher static pressure for them to be able to move a decent amount of air through a case. Compare the airflow of 2x NF-A14 fans flow compared to 3x NF-A12x25 fans flow and then compared that to what 3x NF-A14 fans will flow. Sure, the specs are free airflow, but all have much higher than 1.5mm H2O static pressure meaning they can easily overcome grill and filter resistance and maintain good airflow even at 50% speed.​Now, based on that info from my previous posts and the added info here, what is your determination about what fans and how many are needed? 

I will add one more thought. Look up the airflow and pressure rating of your cooler fan/s and GPU fans. GPU are not easily found so assume they move about 50-60cfm each. Keep in mind for fans running behind another they are only flowing as much air as one fan does. Fans side by side are flowing the combined total. So 3x front fans are flowing 3 times as much as 1 fan (same for GPU cooler, but 2 fans on NF-D15 are only flowing what 1 fan flows. Total up what the 3x GPU fans flow plus the CPU fan and compare that to what the 3x front intakes flow. 

Let me know what you come up with and I will let you know if you figured it out correctly. :thumb:


----------



## Loladinas

Today I got four AP181 for my project and I was surprised that they're not the same fan that I had gotten a few years ago when I bought my TJ08-e. I'm not sure if this has been talked about yet.
They're labeled V2 now, of course, and while physically they look the same I'm not sure what changes were made. They now have three speed settings instead of two. There are some differences between spec sheets, but those could just be differences in testing methodology. It still responds to voltage control quite well - you can drop the RPM on each one of the three modes down to about 170 RPM or so.


Spoiler


----------



## Anon88

Hey, I'm new and I have got some questions.

As far as I understood this thread and some of the others here on this forum, this is the best setup regarding performance and noise:
Front 3 x 140 mm fans intake.
Bottom 1 x 140 mm fan intake.
Mesh front or atleast not so restrictive front.
Remove all PCIe brackets.
Synchronize upper two front intake fans with CPU PWM signal.
Synchronize lowest front intake and bottom fan with GPU PWM signal.



Best of the best: LGM, NH-D15
Best: Cryorig R1 Ultimate, NH-U14S, PH-TC14PE, Mugen 5, Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme, True Spirit 140 Power, Dark Rock Pro 4


To sum up: Close your eyes and pick one. Differences are just in the 1-2 °C range.


Best of the best: Silent Wings 3 PWM HS
Best: TY-143 SQ/TY-147 SQ, PH-F140MP, NF-A14


What about those fans? What's the real life difference here? 

Is it also pick whatever you want and it's just a 1-2 °C difference.


Thing is, all those fans costs more or less (difference of 1-2$) the same where I live.


What about cases with a PSU shroud?
Doesn't the shroud make the third input fan useless?
All it does is blasting air against the PSU.


How does the actual case length influence cooling?
Let's take as an example the Meshify C vs Meshify S2.
The C is much shorter, so the fans should be more efficient?


Thank for all the help!


----------



## doyll

Anon88 said:


> Hey, I'm new and I have got some questions.
> 
> As far as I understood this thread and some of the others here on this forum, this is the best setup regarding performance and noise:
> Front 3 x 140 mm fans intake.
> Bottom 1 x 140 mm fan intake.
> Mesh front or atleast not so restrictive front.
> Remove all PCIe brackets.
> Synchronize upper two front intake fans with CPU PWM signal.
> Synchronize lowest front intake and bottom fan with GPU PWM signal.
> 
> 
> 
> Best of the best: LGM, NH-D15
> Best: Cryorig R1 Ultimate, NH-U14S, PH-TC14PE, Mugen 5, Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme, True Spirit 140 Power, Dark Rock Pro 4
> 
> 
> To sum up: Close your eyes and pick one. Differences are just in the 1-2 °C range.
> 
> 
> Best of the best: Silent Wings 3 PWM HS
> Best: TY-143 SQ/TY-147 SQ, PH-F140MP, NF-A14
> 
> 
> What about those fans? What's the real life difference here?
> 
> Is it also pick whatever you want and it's just a 1-2 °C difference.
> 
> 
> Thing is, all those fans costs more or less (difference of 1-2$) the same where I live.
> 
> 
> What about cases with a PSU shroud?
> Doesn't the shroud make the third input fan useless?
> All it does is blasting air against the PSU.
> 
> 
> How does the actual case length influence cooling?
> Let's take as an example the Meshify C vs Meshify S2.
> The C is much shorter, so the fans should be more efficient?
> 
> 
> Thank for all the help!


The key to good cooling is making sure case fans are flowing cool air to components. This means we need to make sure our case fans are flowing more air into and through case than the amount of air the components are using. 

Keep in mind stacking fans does not increase airflow. All it does in increase their pressure rating, which if it is very low will improve airflow because of added static pressure rating. But that increase is minimal with the fans listed. 

Using more fans side by side does increase airflow. 

So if CPU cooler has 140mm fan/s then it is flowing 1 fan of air rated 75cfm we need case to flow about 100cfm If GPU has 2x or 3x 80mm fans rated 50cfm that is 100cfm or 150cfm of airflow so we need 130cfm or 200cfm of case airflow for GPU. That is a total case airflow of about 230-300cfm for case .. which is 3-4x 140mm fans. 

If you use a cooler that has hi-performance fans like Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme or TR4 use with 130cfm rating case airflow needs to flow about 100cfm more than a case running normal cooler fans moving 75cfm at full speed. But running hi-performance fans at spees above about 1300rpm means fan noise is also increased dramatically. For example I don't want a system that makes more than about 36dB at full speed .. meaning fan speed is below about 1100-1200rpm, I do have one system with TY-143 & TY-143 SQ fans, but only time they run more than about 1150rpm is when doing a 'shock & awe' demonstration. Normally when CPU & GPU are at 100% load the case and cooler fans are running about 1100rpm @ about 67c, but if I turn off case and cooler fans at 100% load CPU and GPU for about 5 minutes temps go up to about 85c .. and when I turn fans on they go full speed (2500rpm) for about a minute with temps dropping back to about 75c, then start getting progressively slower as temps lower and in about 3-4 minutes are back to 1100rpm @ 65c.

Yes, there are many top tier coolers all within a few degrees of each other.
You have it figured out. Depth of case makes no difference to cooling.


----------



## Aenra

Loladinas said:


> They're labeled V2 now


Yeap; and in some video from Gamers Nexus i think? In some show i no longer recall, the usual Silverstone rep (whose name i also do not recall, but it's always the same guy thankfully) who was talking to them mentioned a V3 being in the works 
Have been periodically checking the web since then, but have yet to hear or see anything about those.

As to the V2s, while the slight improvement to the fan speed "regulation" (my butt, they just tweaked or changed that measly potensiometer, lol, but anyway) is.. something i guess? What can i say, i'd have expected them to at the least improve on the bearing. Sleeve bearing? Still? And while sure, it's common, it's definitely not common on "good" fans (they can't be called good when they have a sleeve bearing) and it certainly shouldn't be on a Silverstone halo product.
Whatever the cost cutting they originally needed to do for that fan to hit the market in that pricing, we're long since past that; a quality upgrade to something so basic should have occured years ago.

Am generally disappointed with Silverstone.. they had so much to offer some years ago, showed such promise.. And the more time goes by, the more they make themselves fall by the wayside; it's like they actually want to. In the fan department, in the chassis department. At least they keep making interesting or useful accessories/peripherals, that's something.
Don't misunderstand me, i've used those fans myself yeah? I just didn't know what i know now, lol


----------



## doyll

Aenra said:


> .... What can i say, i'd have expected them to at the least improve on the bearing. Sleeve bearing? Still?


You do realize there are really only 3 kinds of bearings used in our computer fans; ball-bearings, sleeve bearings and a few magnetic levitation bearings. Sure there are many names given to the variations of sleeve bearing being used, but they are still sleeve bearings with some groves, rifling, etc with fancy names like Fluid Dynamic Bearing, Hydro Dynamic Bearing, with grooves, .. but they are just variations of sleeve bearings. 

Brand . . . . . . Model. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Bearing
Aerocool . . . Shark 120mmBlack Edition . FDB, Alternative design 1 (rifle bearing)
Arctic . . . . . .AFACO-120P0-GBA01 . . . . FDB, Alternative design 1 (rifle bearing)
Arctic . . . . . . AFACO-12PP0-GBA01 . . . . FDB, Alternative design 1 (rifle bearing)
be quiet! . . . .BQT T12025-MF-3	. . . . . . FDB, Matsu****a design
BitFenix . . . . BFF-LPRO-12025R-RP . . .. FDB, Alternative design 1 (rifle bearing)
Cougar . . . . CF-V12H . . . . . . . . . . . . . FDB, Matsu****a design
Logisys . . . . LT80UVBL . . . . . . . . . . . . FDB, Alternative design 2 (upgraded sleeve)
Nzxt . . . . . . FX-140LB . . . . . . . . . . . . FDB, Alternative design 3 (upgraded sleeve)
Scythe . . . . . P1225FDB12M . . . . . . . . FDB, Matsu****a design
SilenX . . . . . EFX-12-15 . . . . . . . . . . . FDB, Alternative design 1 (rifle bearing) (Minebea)
SilverStone . SST-AP121-GL . . . . . . . . . FDB, Matsu****a design
Thermaltake AF0043 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FDB, Alternative design 4 (YS Tech Sintetico), sold as HDB
Zalman . . . . ZM-F3 FDB . . . . . . . . . . . . FDB, Matsu****a design

Matsu**** is spelled M-a-t-s-u-s-h-i-t-a, a well known maker of bearings .. that OCN filter is changing to Matsu'****'


----------



## Aenra

doyll said:


> there are really only 3 kinds of bearings
> ..
> they are just variations


Every time i try to have a discussion with you, you get angrier and angrier, or at the least, shall we say more and more insistent on having your view accepted as the right one? Let alone that you know not when to stop. Which is why i always end up /ignoring you, on a metaphorical level that is, i don't actually put you on ignore. Which is precisely why eventually, i simply stopped responding to you altogether; just not worth it. Unfortunately.

Since however others are reading and, again unfortunately, some may not bother to look any further..
- I couldn't care less about how many types of fans we have. Two or fifty two, one of them, the sleeve type, is the kind that, _today_, denotes a bad quality fan, period. And i said quality, not performance.
- 'Variation' has certain.. connotations, which can be misleading here to someone not knowing enough. Terms such as 'evolution' or 'improvement' are a much more adequate and realistic depiction of this, yes? Big difference there.
Technology, power of invention, you name it, has since introduced better, more efficient, more qualitative techniques. With a very noticeable, measurable kind of outcome. Better still, so widespread have they become, that the cost of implementing them is far lower than it once was. Not many obstacles then for a company willing to implement them on a mass selling, halo product now are there; except greed that is. Nothing but pure ole greed.
- Generalising is something i do not endorse, it forcefully broadens the image so much that in the end it becomes 'flat'. 
Matsus-h-ita doesn't design for PC airflow fans; Matsus-h-ita designs for fans, period. Again, major difference here. Which design a PC industry-focused company chooses to implement is up to them. You should not use this kind of an example to drive a point across. We're talking about PC airflow fans _only_, and PC airflow fans of a certain significant (when compared to no-name products) cost. This is the context here.

Can Silverstone keep making sleeve fans? Of course they can.
Should i, personally, spend so much money on a sleeve bearing fan? _Today_? Different question 
(and the answer is no, not unless i have to. And with so many alternatives out there? No, i really don't have to either, not anymore)


----------



## doyll

Aenra said:


> Every time i try to have a discussion with you, you get angrier and angrier, or at the least, shall we say more and more insistent on having your view accepted as the right one? Let alone that you know not when to stop. Which is why i always end up /ignoring you, on a metaphorical level that is, i don't actually put you on ignore. Which is precisely why eventually, i simply stopped responding to you altogether; just not worth it. Unfortunately.
> *snip*
> Should i, personally, spend so much money on a sleeve bearing fan? _Today_? Different question
> (and the answer is no, not unless i have to. And with so many alternatives out there? No, i really don't have to either, not anymore)


Sorry, but here it is you that seems angry and are seeming to throw a temper tantrum about my simply showing what bearing are in some fans. 

If you don't want to see my posts it would be a good idea to not post in my threads and definitely not post garbage like you did. Even then I simply stated the facsts; we only have 3 kinds of bearings in our fans. 

Point here is there are some very good sleeve bearings being made and used in fans .. and there are some really crappy ball bearings being made and used as well. Key is to buy fans with quality bearings and not to pick a fan just because it has one or the other bearing. Simply put, it doesn't make any difference if they are ball or sleeve, if they are a quality fan they will last as long or longer than we will be using them. 

To put it simply, a good quality sleeve bearing will run quieter and last longer than a poorly made ball bearing 99.9% of the time .. in fact a quality sleeve bearing will run quieter for much longer than even most good quality ball bearings .. definitely longer than most of us will ever be using our fans.

I'm never said you needed to buy sleeve bearing fans. That is obviously a choice you don't want to make. 

But when you post garbage like you did about sleeve vs ball bearings your post is likey to lead forum members into false beliefs about what fan bearings really are like and how they perform. 

I have several of the original TY-140 fans in a Define R2 case with one mounted horizontal and two mounted vertical than have been running pretty much 24/7 for years and years and years (got them August 2010) with no problems at all. I also had some ball bearing fans in another system that started failing after about 3 years of use. 

Do you think Noctua fans have garbage bearings? Because most Noctua fans are sleeve bearing varients.


----------



## firewrath9

*140mm fan recc? also PWM vs Voltage control*

hey, been reading this guide, and it's really helpful. I've been looking for a pair of 140mm fans (max price 20$ ea, have to be either off amazon US or Newegg US), for my case. 
Basic PC info (heres my PCPP: https://pcpartpicker.com/b/LPWD4D)
Case: Meshify C
GPU: RX 570 in top 2 PCIe slots
CPU: i5-8400 w/ Cryorig M9 Plus (50-60C on aida64 FPU, not worried about cpu temps)

I currently have a single noctua redux 120mm 1700rpm in the front, and the stock 120mm 1200rpm in the back.

I'd like to replace the front 120mm with a pair of 140mm fans, and add the other stock fan up top also exhausting.

What I'm thinking right now are these:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=1YF-001D-00083
or these (if they are better, then I'll get them)
https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-Pre...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00OP2PUDQ

the phanteks has more Static pressure, but I think that both fans are good (read your thing about static pressure vs airflow), I have no hard drive cages and minimal wiring in the way.
I've been trying to look for TY-147A SQ, but I can't find them anywhere in the US.

which fan of the 2 i picked is better, and is there any better options?

Also, my motherboard has both PWM and voltage control, and the voltage Pure wings 2 high-speed is 60 cents cheaper, Is there any improvement in control/noise? (planning on running as a case fan, so 800-1200 rpm prob, depending on noise).
Also, on the right of the pcie slots, 

https://www.google.com/search?q=mes...UIDigB&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=I6eX79f2Hwt9tM:

there is space for some 40 or 50mm fans, will it help with the airflow?, or should I just get these: https://www.amazon.com/SilverStone-...d=1551928311&s=gateway&sr=8-3#customerReviews
(the stock pcie covers are pretty restrictive, and these look better than leaving it open.

thanks for all your work making this guide, it really helped. Please feel free to ask for clarification!


----------



## doyll

firewrath9 said:


> hey, been reading this guide, and it's really helpful. I've been looking for a pair of 140mm fans (max price 20$ ea, have to be either off amazon US or Newegg US), for my case.
> Basic PC info (heres my PCPP: https://pcpartpicker.com/b/LPWD4D)
> Case: Meshify C
> GPU: RX 570 in top 2 PCIe slots
> CPU: i5-8400 w/ Cryorig M9 Plus (50-60C on aida64 FPU, not worried about cpu temps)
> 
> I currently have a single noctua redux 120mm 1700rpm in the front, and the stock 120mm 1200rpm in the back.
> 
> I'd like to replace the front 120mm with a pair of 140mm fans, and add the other stock fan up top also exhausting.
> 
> What I'm thinking right now are these:
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=1YF-001D-00083
> or these (if they are better, then I'll get them)
> https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-Pre...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00OP2PUDQ
> 
> the phanteks has more Static pressure, but I think that both fans are good (read your thing about static pressure vs airflow), I have no hard drive cages and minimal wiring in the way.
> I've been trying to look for TY-147A SQ, but I can't find them anywhere in the US.
> 
> which fan of the 2 i picked is better, and is there any better options?
> 
> Also, my motherboard has both PWM and voltage control, and the voltage Pure wings 2 high-speed is 60 cents cheaper, Is there any improvement in control/noise? (planning on running as a case fan, so 800-1200 rpm prob, depending on noise).
> Also, on the right of the pcie slots,
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=mes...UIDigB&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=I6eX79f2Hwt9tM:
> 
> there is space for some 40 or 50mm fans, will it help with the airflow?, or should I just get these: https://www.amazon.com/SilverStone-...d=1551928311&s=gateway&sr=8-3#customerReviews
> (the stock pcie covers are pretty restrictive, and these look better than leaving it open.
> 
> thanks for all your work making this guide, it really helped. Please feel free to ask for clarification!


I would get the be quiet! Silent Wings 3 or MPs

I don't think 40mm and 50mm fans are worth using unless there is no other option. Besides, a couple 140mm front intakes will flow all the air you will need.


----------



## firewrath9

*firewrath9*



doyll said:


> Both are good but I would get the be quiet!
> 
> I don't think 40mm and 50mm fans are worth using unless there is no other option. Besides, a couple 140mm front intakes will flow all the air you will need.


Ok, thanks, I'll get the pure wings 2.
Is getting pcie covers that allow more airflow through worth it? I read on your guide that taking out the extra PCIe slots will help temperatures, but I don't want to do that, and my current ones are really restrictive.
https://www.amazon.com/Phobya-Cover-Vents-Black-4-Pack/dp/B004KO6US8/

Also, for case fans, should I spend the extra 60 cents to get the PWM version of the Pure wings? They are the same specwise, and I heard somewhere that be quiet! has some PWM ticking issues. Is there any difference between PWM and voltage? I don't care about efficency.


----------



## Melcar

firewrath9 said:


> Ok, thanks, I'll get the pure wings 2.
> Is getting pcie covers that allow more airflow through worth it? I read on your guide that taking out the extra PCIe slots will help temperatures, but I don't want to do that, and my current ones are really restrictive.
> https://www.amazon.com/Phobya-Cover-Vents-Black-4-Pack/dp/B004KO6US8/
> 
> Also, for case fans, should I spend the extra 60 cents to get the PWM version of the Pure wings? They are the same specwise, and I heard somewhere that be quiet! has some PWM ticking issues. Is there any difference between PWM and voltage? I don't care about efficency.



Removing the pci covers does help, in general. Most modern cases have vented pci covers or you could also buy them. Obviously they are more restrictive than having no covers. There are also metal mesh pci covers you can buy, much more restrictive but still a bit better than a solid cover.
I recently went from vented covers (the stock covers on my Phanteks Pro) to some mesh covers. Reason was because my GPU fans (Cougar Vortex mounted on a Morpheus II) would often suck air in from the rear of the case when they ramped up to full speed, and my room is really dusty. The only difference I have noted is that the PCIe x16 area gets a bit warmer now (by about 3C) but non of my main components were negatively affected.


----------



## Dogzilla07

firewrath9 said:


> Ok, thanks, I'll get the pure wings 2.


Pure wings 2 are not the same as Silent Wings 3. They are worse than both the Silent Wings 3 and the white PH-F140MP Phanteks. These are the ones you want:

https://www.amazon.com/quiet-BL071-SILENTWINGS-1600RPM-77-57CFM/dp/B01JME13SW/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_3?crid=21JTQ5HWV3VFO&keywords=silent+wings+3+140mm+pwm+high-speed&qid=1552002916&s=gateway&sprefix=silent+wings+3+PWM+140mm+h%2Caps%2C251&sr=8-3-fkmrnull

But i'd get the white Phanteks you linked, they're close enough but cheaper.


----------



## firewrath9

Dogzilla07 said:


> Pure wings 2 are not the same as Silent Wings 3. They are worse than both the Silent Wings 3 and the white PH-F140MP Phanteks. These are the ones you want:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/quiet-BL071-SILENTWINGS-1600RPM-77-57CFM/dp/B01JME13SW/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_3?crid=21JTQ5HWV3VFO&keywords=silent+wings+3+140mm+pwm+high-speed&qid=1552002916&s=gateway&sprefix=silent+wings+3+PWM+140mm+h%2Caps%2C251&sr=8-3-fkmrnull
> 
> But i'd get the white Phanteks you linked, they're close enough but cheaper.


originally, he said "I would get the be quiet" without mention of SW3 if you you looked at my replyy to @doyll
and ik that the pw2 are worse than sw3(they are 10$ less). however as i will be using these as case fans in a xase thats not very restrictive, wouldn't the higher cfm and slightly lower static pressue be better, or are the phanteks still better.

sorry for my bad spelling.


----------



## Dogzilla07

firewrath9 said:


> however as i will be using these as case fans in a xase thats not very restrictive, wouldn't the higher cfm and slightly lower static pressue be better, or are the phanteks still better.
> sorry for my bad spelling.


The fans still need to overcome the mesh and the filter on the Meshify C, the phanteks are still a better choice and would perform better than the pure wings 2. If you're ok with the black/white scheme of the phanteks go for them.

There's actually even the black phanteks for an ok price on newegg, if you like the colors more:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4RE5045354&Description=phanteks%20ph-f140&cm_re=phanteks_ph-f140-_-35-709-048-_-Product


----------



## Brightmist

firewrath9 said:


> originally, he said "I would get the be quiet" without mention of SW3 if you you looked at my replyy to @doyll
> and ik that the pw2 are worse than sw3(they are 10$ less). however as i will be using these as case fans in a xase thats not very restrictive, wouldn't the higher cfm and slightly lower static pressue be better, or are the phanteks still better.
> 
> sorry for my bad spelling.


Get Silent Wings 3 High Speeds or Phanteks MPs.
Thermalright TY-147A SQs are also a good option: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G2942BK/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_6?smid=A3D1M5ET5Z3YT6&psc=1

Get the one that fits your budget pretty much.

Meshify isn't restrictive on the front but it's not that open either with the combination of mesh and filter.

Removing PCI-E covers and I/O shield makes a drastic difference when trying to move air through the case. I'd suggest removing both and all exhaust fans and just relying on high quality front intake fans to move cool ambient air through the case while pushing warm air out of the case.


----------



## doyll

firewrath9 said:


> Ok, thanks, I'll get the pure wings 2.
> Is getting pcie covers that allow more airflow through worth it? I read on your guide that taking out the extra PCIe slots will help temperatures, but I don't want to do that, and my current ones are really restrictive.
> https://www.amazon.com/Phobya-Cover-Vents-Black-4-Pack/dp/B004KO6US8/
> 
> Also, for case fans, should I spend the extra 60 cents to get the PWM version of the Pure wings? They are the same specwise, and I heard somewhere that be quiet! has some PWM ticking issues. Is there any difference between PWM and voltage? I don't care about efficency.


Vented PCIe covers are better than solid covers, but no PCIe covers is way better than even vented covers.

Sorry, I wasn't paying attention to which be quiet! fans you were looking at. The Pure Wings are not very good. be quiet! Silent Wings 3 are good but very expensive, so Ph-F140MP fans are best choice. 

What country are you located in? Thermalright is sold by Alternate in most European countries. In USA they are sold by Nan's Gaming Gear. They sell on Amazon.

I use PWM control on all my fans.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Vented PCIe covers are better than solid covers, but no PCIe covers is way better than even vented covers.
> 
> Sorry, I wasn't paying attention to which be quiet! fans you were looking at. The Pure Wings are not very good. be quiet! Silent Wings 3 are good but very expensive, so Ph-F140MP fans are best choice.
> 
> What country are you located in? Thermalright is sold by Alternate in most European countries. In USA they are sold by Nan's Gaming Gear. They sell on Amazon.
> 
> I use PWM control on all my fans.


The Pure Wings 2 are better than "not very good". The 2 series is better than the average $10-12 fan and has a really nice sound profile. That said, they won't stack up against the F140MP at a similar price point.


----------



## Melcar

Right now I'm having a hard time finding any MP fan below $14 from my usual sources. Good thing I got a bunch when they were on sale for $9 on Amazon a while back.


----------



## firewrath9

doyll said:


> Vented PCIe covers are better than solid covers, but no PCIe covers is way better than even vented covers.
> 
> Sorry, I wasn't paying attention to which be quiet! fans you were looking at. The Pure Wings are not very good. be quiet! Silent Wings 3 are good but very expensive, so Ph-F140MP fans are best choice.
> 
> What country are you located in? Thermalright is sold by Alternate in most European countries. In USA they are sold by Nan's Gaming Gear. They sell on Amazon.
> 
> I use PWM control on all my fans.


I'm in America, near DC (within 30 minutes).
Ok, I'll get the Phanteks, my PC is white and black anyways. Is the thermalright TY-147A SQ (the pwm square 140mm one) better than the Phanteks for low(er) restriction than the Phanteks?

I prob won't buy the pcie slots, as my GPU is pretty cool, as I only have a 75hz monitor, and I set settings to high (I lowered the power limit to 90%, so its pretty quiet.)
I might dremel a hole the the expansion slot that holds my wifi card (its a half-height card) so there can be a little more.
so that there will be a little more airflow.

Thank you and everybody else who replied for your help.


----------



## Melcar

The Phanteks fan can reach higher speeds. They perform about the same at the same speed range.


----------



## doyll

firewrath9 said:


> I'm in America, near DC (within 30 minutes).
> Ok, I'll get the Phanteks, my PC is white and black anyways. Is the thermalright TY-147A SQ (the pwm square 140mm one) better than the Phanteks for low(er) restriction than the Phanteks?
> 
> I prob won't buy the pcie slots, as my GPU is pretty cool, as I only have a 75hz monitor, and I set settings to high (I lowered the power limit to 90%, so its pretty quiet.)
> I might dremel a hole the the expansion slot that holds my wifi card (its a half-height card) so there can be a little more.
> so that there will be a little more airflow.
> 
> Thank you and everybody else who replied for your help.


I haven't used exhaust fans or PCIe covers in years. Also don't use motherboard I/O shield in back because no shield give some vent area around I/O connectors so extra airflow over components between CPU and back of case that not having the I/O shield in stops.


----------



## firewrath9

ok thanks, I went with the phanteks!


----------



## doyll

firewrath9 said:


> ok thanks, I went with the phanteks!


I'm sure you will be happy with them. Please let us know how it all works out. While I know quite a bit about things from personal experiences, even more of what I know is from people like yourself post up their results. :thumb:


----------



## Juuhuu

Can someone please take a look at this thread and help me about airflow. What set up as I described in the picture be ok?

https://www.overclock.net/forum/297...ions/1722174-cpu-90-load-hours-every-day.html


----------



## Gilles3000

Surprising, pretty decent temperatures on my new build. 4.8Ghz all core 9600K and Vega 64. Neither goes over 70c with reasonable acoustics.

Really thought it was going to be worse considering the exhaust fans are worthless and the GPU is a giant airflow dam.










Only just managed to cram the Macho Rev.B in there again, really didn't look like the side panel would go on. This is starting to become a theme with my builds.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Surprising, pretty decent temperatures on my new build. 4.8Ghz all core 9600K and Vega 64. Neither goes over 70c with reasonable acoustics.
> 
> Really thought it was going to be worse considering the exhaust fans are worthless and the GPU is a giant airflow dam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only just managed to cram the Macho Rev.B in there again, really didn't look like the side panel would go on. This is starting to become a theme with my builds.


Glade you have good temps. Macho Rev. B doesn't need a lot of airflow / lot of cool air to give good temps. Your build is a good example of how well they work.


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> Glade you have good temps. Macho Rev. B doesn't need a lot of airflow / lot of cool air to give good temps. Your build is a good example of how well they work.


Its pretty good as is indeed. Still planning to make some improvements tho.

Planning on a TY-147SQ up top to go in tandem with the one om the macho. A somewhat more decent slim fan in the back, not quite decided on one as they're all terrible and overpriced.

For the bottom I still need to find a better solution than mounting the fans with double sided tape  Still a bit stuck on a solution that doesn't take mayor modding of the bottom panel.

Custom cables are also a must, also sourcing the right ones is proving tricky as well.

Any advice is appreciated


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Its pretty good as is indeed. Still planning to make some improvements tho.
> 
> Planning on a TY-147SQ up top to go in tandem with the one om the macho. A somewhat more decent slim fan in the back, not quite decided on one as they're all terrible and overpriced.
> 
> For the bottom I still need to find a better solution than mounting the fans with double sided tape  Still a bit stuck on a solution that doesn't take mayor modding of the bottom panel.
> 
> Custom cables are also a must, also sourcing the right ones is proving tricky as well.
> 
> Any advice is appreciated


Just brainstorming here now. :thinking: I wonder if you could use a top fan as intake into cooler with no fan between GPU and cooler, just rear exhaust pulling air out back? Top in for cooler, bottom in for GPU with back out for both. Back fan could be mounted on outside of back panel instead of normal inside of panel. Just a thought. 

I've used many TY-14x fans as case fans by either drilling extra case mounting holes to match or making a simple adapter panel out of like 9mm birch plywood (see in link below)
https://www.overclock.net/forum/23207921-post23.html

I've also squared off the round sides of many TY-14x series fans so they will fit like 140mm square fans.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/23207921-post23.html

You have probably seen those posts before, but just in case you haven't I've included links.


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> Just brainstorming here now. :thinking: I wonder if you could use a top fan as intake into cooler with no fan between GPU and cooler, just rear exhaust pulling air out back? Top in for cooler, bottom in for GPU with back out for both. Back fan could be mounted on outside of back panel instead of normal inside of panel. Just a thought.
> 
> I've used many TY-14x fans as case fans by either drilling extra case mounting holes to match or making a simple adapter panel out of like 9mm birch plywood (see in link below)
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/23207921-post23.html
> 
> I've also squared off the round sides of many TY-14x series fans so they will fit like 140mm square fans.
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/23207921-post23.html
> 
> You have probably seen those posts before, but just in case you haven't I've included links.


That's a possibility, although then I'd have to rely on solely a 120mm slim fan to exhaust everything, wouldn't that be a bit restrictive? I'm already on the side of positive pressure with the current setup.
Also a bit concerned about losing performance because the top fan is both spaced off and offset from the cooler.

I'd like to avoid external mounting as well, as I have a curious cat that happens to love the warm aluminium. She's sure to mess with it.

That being said, what do you think the current least terrible slim 120mm fan is? Just used an old scythe slip stream slim pwm, but it basically doesn't move any air at reasonable rpm's.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> That's a possibility, although then I'd have to rely on solely a 120mm slim fan to exhaust everything, wouldn't that be a bit restrictive? I'm already on the side of positive pressure with the current setup.
> Also a bit concerned about losing performance because the top fan is both spaced off and offset from the cooler.
> 
> I'd like to avoid external mounting as well, as I have a curious cat that happens to love the warm aluminium. She's sure to mess with it.
> 
> That being said, what do you think the current least terrible slim 120mm fan is? Just used an old scythe slip stream slim pwm, but it basically doesn't move any air at reasonable rpm's.


I haven't used exhaust fans in most of my builds for years. Good pressure rated intakes will flow air into, through and out of case with no problems.


----------



## Ruok2bu

@doyll i require your expertise again!

I'm getting a new computer soon and i don't know which full tower case to get. This time around i don't care for fancy lights or anything like that (currently i use Phanteks Enthoo Luxe); i just need it to be able to handle:

Graphics card with these dimensions: Height: 5.48in (139.3mm) Length: 11.89in (301.925mm)
AMD Ryzen CPU (i likely wont be using a non AMD heatsink on it unless its temps are too high so the case should optimally be able to handle a Noctua heatsink too).


----------



## doyll

Ruok2bu said:


> @*doyll* i require your expertise again!
> 
> I'm getting a new computer soon and i don't know which full tower case to get. This time around i don't care for fancy lights or anything like that (currently i use Phanteks Enthoo Luxe); i just need it to be able to handle:
> 
> Graphics card with these dimensions: Height: 5.48in (139.3mm) Length: 11.89in (301.925mm)
> AMD Ryzen CPU (i likely wont be using a non AMD heatsink on it unless its temps are too high so the case should optimally be able to handle a Noctua heatsink too).


 Hi! Been awhile sense I've seen you on forum. :thumb:


First off, from what I've heard of Ryzen performance with stock cooler I would get CPU wihtout cooler and use a different cooler. While stock cooler does cool just fine it is not as quiet as I like. 



Is there a reason to not re-use your Luxe case? I haven't followed what is available in Canada at this time, but I suspect Phanteks are still a good choice. Would help to know your price range and maybe some idea of what cases you like the looks of.


----------



## Ruok2bu

Loudness isnt really an issue for me because i have a air purifier running right behind my chair and it's 3 times louder than my current computers.

I need to keep the system in the old case because im reusing it as a server computer.

My budget for case is around a max of $300


----------



## doyll

Ruok2bu said:


> Loudness isnt really an issue for me because i have a air purifier running right behind my chair and it's 3 times louder than my current computers.
> 
> I need to keep the system in the old case because im reusing it as a server computer.
> 
> My budget for case is around a max of $300


 Phanteks Enthoo Pro is good and low priced. 



I'm building a new system in new Phanteks Evolv X case. Lots of nice features / extras in it and priced $199.99. Take a look at it and let me know what you think.


----------



## Ruok2bu

Evolv X doesn't have any bottom fans and Enthoo Pro looks very small.

I looked at Enthoo Primo SE and it has everything i need (albeit a bit out of my budget but still doable). Is that one good?


----------



## Melcar

The Enthoo Pro is indeed a bit small. It's marketed as a full tower, but to me it's only slightly bigger than a big mid tower. 

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

Ruok2bu said:


> Evolv X doesn't have any bottom fans and Enthoo Pro looks very small.
> 
> I looked at Enthoo Primo SE and it has everything i need (albeit a bit out of my budget but still doable). Is that one good?


 Enthoo Pro is 235x535x550mm (WxHxD)
Enthoo Primo is 250x650x600mm (WxHxD) So tall it won't fit under most desks (desk top is about 740mm high. It's a very big case and comes with plenty of fans too. I used one for awhile but ended up changing to smaller case so it would fit into my enviroment better.


----------



## Ruok2bu

Edit: nm


----------



## doyll

Enthoo Primo works well, it's just big .. also quite heavy.


----------



## Ruok2bu

I've been looking at cases which have separate partitions for the PSU and hard drives but haven't been able to find any temperature readings for mechanical and SSD's at idle and under load. doyll, do you have any temperature readings for such cases? I keep hearing that they use passive cooling where the PSU fan sucks air out of the compartment but since there's no fans blowing fresh air on the hard drives - is that enough to keep them cool?


----------



## jfriend00

Ruok2bu said:


> I've been looking at cases which have separate partitions for the PSU and hard drives but haven't been able to find any temperature readings for mechanical and SSD's at idle and under load. doyll, do you have any temperature readings for such cases? I keep hearing that they use passive cooling where the PSU fan sucks air out of the compartment but since there's no fans blowing fresh air on the hard drives - is that enough to keep them cool?


Why would you not have some intake fan(s) that drive airflow past the hard drives and then have that airflow go past the motherboard?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking about PSU airflow. I have a Fractal Design Define R6, with a Corsair RM750x power supply. The power supply itself only runs its fan when it is actually under higher load (so normally not running at all). The power supply draws cool ambient air from outside the case (through the bottom) and then exhausts it directly out the back of the case so it basically creates its own airflow when necessary that is completely separate from other case airflow. So my PSU airflow is independent from the airflow over the hard drives. 

I have 5 hard drives. The case intake fans blow air over the hard drives and that air flows from front to back, through the case, over the motherboard and out the back.


----------



## Ruok2bu

I looked at the Phanteks cases again (all of them; even the one that costs $1200) and they all look too similar in design (both exterior and interior). So i looked at Corsair since i already use most of their other products (psu, keyboard, speakers) and the "Obsidian Series 500D RGB SE Premium Mid-Tower Case" caught my eye.

In that case, the hard drive bays are removed from the front intake fans and moved to the opposite side of the motherboard so there is unrestricted airflow going to CPU, motherboard and graphics card.
























https://www.corsair.com/ca/en/Categ...RGB-SE-Premium-Mid-Tower-Case/p/CC-9011139-WW

Even the Fractal Define S2 Black uses this sort of arrangement with the hard drives having no air flow going over them (https://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/cases/define-series/define-s2-black-tg)


----------



## speed_demon

I have the original Fractal Define S and the hard drives are indeed removed from the airflow where they mount on the opposite side of the Mobo tray. Even my SSD's heat up quite a bit in this configuration - I saw my Samsung 860 EVO sitting around 40C on at least one occasion. The HDD's are mounted closer to the front of the case and seem more resistant to heating up even with their lack of airflow.


----------



## Ruok2bu

speed_demon said:


> I have the original Fractal Define S and the hard drives are indeed removed from the airflow where they mount on the opposite side of the Mobo tray. Even my SSD's heat up quite a bit in this configuration - I saw my Samsung 860 EVO sitting around 40C on at least one occasion. The HDD's are mounted closer to the front of the case and seem more resistant to heating up even with their lack of airflow.


Is that 40C under load or at idle?

I finally got a response back from Corsair support; they said hard drive can get to 50C :S

I did some more tests on my end, running a stress test on my SSD in my current case (its on the opposite side of motherboard where there is no airflow), temp topped out at 47C. Then to stress test my mechanical hard drive, i turned off all the intake fans (i have 2 in front and 1 at bottom) and the temp never went above 36C. So it's giving me an idea of how a dual chamber case would cool things and its not that bad. Stress test i used was 2 32GB files in CrystalDiskMark.
@doyll; what do you think about dual chamber cases? Is there enough passive cooling in the PSU/hard drive compartment to keep the hard drives (in particular mechanical hard drives) under 40C under load?


----------



## doyll

Ruok2bu said:


> I've been looking at cases which have separate partitions for the PSU and hard drives but haven't been able to find any temperature readings for mechanical and SSD's at idle and under load. doyll, do you have any temperature readings for such cases? I keep hearing that they use passive cooling where the PSU fan sucks air out of the compartment but since there's no fans blowing fresh air on the hard drives - is that enough to keep them cool?


Sorry, I do not have any HDD or SSD temps in PSU compartment. My systems all have airflow over drives or external drives units / housings with airflow.


----------



## Ruok2bu

Hmm, i guess worst case scenario, with that corsair case i can get an external enclosure for the mechanical harddrive if the temperature is bad. In my current Phanteks Enthoo Luxe; i have the SSD on the opposite side of the motherboard (accessible from the non windowed door). @doyll, do you use the SSD mounts on that side of the case too?


----------



## speed_demon

Ruok2bu said:


> Is that 40C under load or at idle?
> 
> I finally got a response back from Corsair support; they said hard drive can get to 50C :S


That was under sustained real world load. Stayed there at 40C ish for a while after the load was removed from the system too. 

It's a good setup though. I try and keep my components as cool as possible to prolong their lifespan and having my storage drives mounted without any airflow doesn't bother me at all. Modern drives handle it quite well.


----------



## doyll

speed_demon said:


> That was under sustained real world load. Stayed there at 40C ish for a while after the load was removed from the system too.
> 
> It's a good setup though. I try and keep my components as cool as possible to prolong their lifespan and having my storage drives mounted without any airflow doesn't bother me at all. Modern drives handle it quite well.


You say "Stayed there at 40c ish for a while after the laod was removed". How long is 'awhile'?


----------



## Melcar

SSDs can take more heat than HDDs. I think some are quoted up to 70C. Keep them below 50C anyway. HDDs are more delicate and conventional wisdom was to always keep them below 50C. 30-40C is optimal (I think they get damage if they go lower than a certain point). Mine are at 44-46C these days (both HDDs and SDDs) due to high ambient temperatures.


----------



## Mungojerrie

Been reading this thread for a while now. A lot of good info here, for which I want to thank you all (esp. *doyll*).

Want to ask one thing: is there any info or consensus on MSI Torx fans? It has 500-1,800 RPM, with airflow ranging between 19.79-71.27 CFM with other info being hard to come by. It sure does a decent job in a MSI Core Frozr L cooler, but I can't tell whether or not it's going to make a good case fan.

It's just that Silent Wings 3 and Noctua fans are quite expensive while Phanteks, Thermalright, Noiseblocker and Gentle Typhoon fans are just not available in my country at all.

Also would like to know if newer Arctic Bionix P140, P140, F120 and P120 fans are worthy successors to P14 and P12 series. Arctic claims new P-series to be optimised for static pressure with 2.85 mm H2O (@1.950 RPM) for 140mm model and 2.75 mm H2O (@2.100 RPM) for 120mm model. New 120/140 dseries are 2/3 of a price of say Silent Wings 3(Noctuas are even more expensive), so I'm wondering which option makes more sense.

I'm currently using two Noctua NF-P14s redux PWM as front intakes at ~900 RPM(sadly one of them is blowing mostly into a PSU cover) and wondering whether or not I should even bother upgrading them at all. Temps are good but I'm planning a CPU upgrade down the line.

Would appreciate any input.


----------



## doyll

Mungojerrie said:


> Been reading this thread for a while now. A lot of good info here, for which I want to thank you all (esp. *doyll*).
> 
> Want to ask one thing: is there any info or consensus on MSI Torx fans? It has 500-1,800 RPM, with airflow ranging between 19.79-71.27 CFM with other info being hard to come by. It sure does a decent job in a MSI Core Frozr L cooler, but I can't tell whether or not it's going to make a good case fan.
> 
> It's just that Silent Wings 3 and Noctua fans are quite expensive while Phanteks, Thermalright, Noiseblocker and Gentle Typhoon fans are just not available in my country at all.
> 
> Also would like to know if newer Arctic Bionix P140, P140, F120 and P120 fans are worthy successors to P14 and P12 series. Arctic claims new P-series to be optimised for static pressure with 2.85 mm H2O (@1.950 RPM) for 140mm model and 2.75 mm H2O (@2.100 RPM) for 120mm model. New 120/140 dseries are 2/3 of a price of say Silent Wings 3(Noctuas are even more expensive), so I'm wondering which option makes more sense.
> 
> I'm currently using two Noctua NF-P14s redux PWM as front intakes at ~900 RPM(sadly one of them is blowing mostly into a PSU cover) and wondering whether or not I should even bother upgrading them at all. Temps are good but I'm planning a CPU upgrade down the line.
> 
> Would appreciate any input.


Glad you found some posts helpful. I try. 



What case are you using?


----------



## Mungojerrie

doyll said:


> Glad you found some posts helpful. I try.


Oh man, your posts are like a goldmine on this topic. You're doing a great job!





doyll said:


> What case are you using?


My current is Aerocool Aero 800 set up like this:


Spoiler














Front magnetic filter is removed, only the case front mesh is obstructing the intake, besides the PSU cover absorbing most of what the lower fan supplies.

I'm soon moving my setup into Corsair Carbide 270R, it has more front intake obstruction but better fan positioning - I'll fit 2*140 or 2*140+1*120 if they all fit.

P.S. I've found Phanteks PH-F120/140MP on AliExpress. Would they be a better choice than locally available fans I've mentioned before? They are priced at Arctic Bionix P140 level. On Phanteks site they are rated at a 1.72/1.62 mm H2O static pressure.


----------



## doyll

Mungojerrie said:


> Oh man, your posts are like a goldmine on this topic. You're doing a great job!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My current is Aerocool Aero 800 set up like this:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front magnetic filter is removed, only the case front mesh is obstructing the intake, besides the PSU cover absorbing most of what the lower fan supplies.
> 
> I'm soon moving my setup into Corsair Carbide 270R, it has more front intake obstruction but better fan positioning - I'll fit 2*140 or 2*140+1*120 if they all fit.
> 
> P.S. I've found Phanteks PH-F120/140MP on AliExpress. Would they be a better choice than locally available fans I've mentioned before? They are priced at Arctic Bionix P140 level. On Phanteks site they are rated at a 1.72/1.62 mm H2O static pressure.



Your NF-P14 are not bad fans. 



My suggestions:


First thing is test out your case airflow temps at different loads/speeds. 5th post this thread explains how.
I would remove all PCie back slot covers for more exhaust airflow area around GPU.The top and back exhaust are doing little if any help. Easy way to be sure is test and see what temps are with them running and with them unplugged. My guess is they are giving little to no lower temps but are making more noise. 
I would use the stock magnetic filter on front intakes, and after testing and monitoring cooler intake air temps with NF-P14 we will have enough info to hopefully move forward to getting lower airflow temps if needed. Then if needed maybe change to a couple of the PH-F140MP fans. We want cooler intake air temp to only be a degree or 3 warmer than room air temp. They have high enough pressure rating to overcome the grill resistance and filter keeps things much cleaner.
Once we know what case airflow is doing we will be hopefully have a better idea of how to solve problems.


----------



## zsarpi

To all TY-14x users, but especially doyll: can you tell me if these fans produce an annoying vrrjjj sound up close (5-10cm) no matter the RPM or am I the only unlucky one?

Here's my explanation:
I'm a Noctua D15 user in a Nanoxia DS1 case. I got the cooler used with no fans for half the price (practically it was new) but without the A15 fans. I bought 2x TY-140 fans (the original ones), but both of them produce a vrrjjj sound up close, no matter the position/orientation/rpm, which gets amplified by the case and transforms into a low humming sound from further away, this is noticeable especially at idle ~600rpm. This is mentioned in a* single* review:https://medium.com/@alexmoore/noctua-nf-a12x25-case-fan-review-a5e4471e0cbc
Ok, ok, they mention the A14, but blade design/shape is the same as TY-14x.
I replaced these with some Noctua A12x25 fans and the humming is gone (I can provide a comparison between the 2 fans on the D15 if requested), I can now enjoy the chirping of my Enermax PSU, which has its days numbered.
I was thinking of buying some TY-147Bs, since 140mm fans have a cooling advantage on this particular cooler) but the sound of the fan blades was driving me crazy.


----------



## doyll

zsarpi said:


> To all TY-14x users, but especially doyll: can you tell me if these fans produce an annoying vrrjjj sound up close (5-10cm) no matter the RPM or am I the only unlucky one?
> 
> Here's my explanation:
> I'm a Noctua D15 user in a Nanoxia DS1 case. I got the cooler used with no fans for half the price (practically it was new) but without the A15 fans. I bought 2x TY-140 fans (the original ones), but both of them produce a vrrjjj sound up close, no matter the position/orientation/rpm, which gets amplified by the case and transforms into a low humming sound from further away, this is noticeable especially at idle ~600rpm. This is mentioned in a* single* review:https://medium.com/@alexmoore/noctua-nf-a12x25-case-fan-review-a5e4471e0cbc
> Ok, ok, they mention the A14, but blade design/shape is the same as TY-14x.
> I replaced these with some Noctua A12x25 fans and the humming is gone (I can provide a comparison between the 2 fans on the D15 if requested), I can now enjoy the chirping of my Enermax PSU, which has its days numbered.
> I was thinking of buying some TY-147Bs, since 140mm fans have a cooling advantage on this particular cooler) but the sound of the fan blades was driving me crazy.


Thanks for posting!

Sorry about your having side-noise with your TY-140 fans. I can't find any reference to TY-140 fans in your review link. Could you post section of review it is in? 

I have found TY-140 like all other fans are quieter when spaced 10-20mm from cooler or vent. 

NF-A12x25 are very good so no surprise that you are happy with them.


----------



## Mungojerrie

doyll said:


> Your NF-P14 are not bad fans.
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestions:
> 
> 
> First thing is test out your case airflow temps at different loads/speeds. 5th post this thread explains how.
> I would remove all PCie back slot covers for more exhaust airflow area around GPU.The top and back exhaust are doing little if any help. Easy way to be sure is test and see what temps are with them running and with them unplugged. My guess is they are giving little to no lower temps but are making more noise.
> I would use the stock magnetic filter on front intakes, and after testing and monitoring cooler intake air temps with NF-P14 we will have enough info to hopefully move forward to getting lower airflow temps if needed. Then if needed maybe change to a couple of the PH-F140MP fans. We want cooler intake air temp to only be a degree or 3 warmer than room air temp. They have high enough pressure rating to overcome the grill resistance and filter keeps things much cleaner.
> Once we know what case airflow is doing we will be hopefully have a better idea of how to solve problems.


Thanks for the advice! I'll consider removing at least on of the exhaust fans. Although I'm not entirely comfortable with removing PCIe covers(


Spoiler



just feels wrong, man


). Thankfully they are nicely perforated. And I'll put the front filter back as without it dust accumulates rather quickly.
Again, actual temperatures are not a problem at all as only the irrational desire to improve things drives me.


----------



## doyll

Mungojerrie said:


> Thanks for the advice! I'll consider removing at least on of the exhaust fans. Although I'm not entirely comfortable with removing PCIe covers(
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> just feels wrong, man
> 
> 
> ). Thankfully they are nicely perforated. And I'll put the front filter back as without it dust accumulates rather quickly.
> Again, actual temperatures are not a problem at all as only the irrational desire to improve things drives me.


Removing PCI covers adds rear vent area thus more front to back airflow. Even punched vent grills are 60% or more restriction than no vent grill. I usually cut back and bottom vent grills out of my builds to lower airflow restriction, lower noise levels and improve airflow.


----------



## zsarpi

doyll said:


> Thanks for posting!
> 
> Sorry about your having side-noise with your TY-140 fans. I can't find any reference to TY-140 fans in your review link. Could you post section of review it is in?
> 
> I have found TY-140 like all other fans are quieter when spaced 10-20mm from cooler or vent.
> 
> NF-A12x25 are very good so no surprise that you are happy with them.


There's no reference to the TY-140 itself, but to the A14, which has a similar blade design, hence the same conclusion. 
My testing of the TY fans reached the same result: there's no motor noise, but propeller noise, which are then amplified by the case. I'm not talking about the sound the A14/A15 (or any other fan like the eLoop) does, when being used as pull fan (radiator, filter, whatever), but actual propeller/blade noise the TY fans make even in free air and low rpm. 
I want to keep using the A12x25s ( extra bonus: the radiator/filter has very little effect on the tone of the sound in pull configs due to the blade shape) but being in the era of GPU boost clocks I was thinking of installing the D15 in vertical orientation to keep GPU temps as low as possible (even if sacrificing a few degrees on the CPU) to achieve a higher boost - but this is a future project of mine...the PSU has to go first, then the 7970....
The D15 clearly prefers 140mm fans, but I don't want to buy the TY-147Bs blindly..


----------



## Shenhua

Mungojerrie said:


> Oh man, your posts are like a goldmine on this topic. You're doing a great job!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My current is Aerocool Aero 800 set up like this:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front magnetic filter is removed, only the case front mesh is obstructing the intake, besides the PSU cover absorbing most of what the lower fan supplies.
> 
> I'm soon moving my setup into Corsair Carbide 270R, it has more front intake obstruction but better fan positioning - I'll fit 2*140 or 2*140+1*120 if they all fit.
> 
> P.S. I've found Phanteks PH-F120/140MP on AliExpress. Would they be a better choice than locally available fans I've mentioned before? They are priced at Arctic Bionix P140 level. On Phanteks site they are rated at a 1.72/1.62 mm H2O static pressure.





doyll said:


> Your NF-P14 are not bad fans.
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestions:
> 
> 
> First thing is test out your case airflow temps at different loads/speeds. 5th post this thread explains how.
> I would remove all PCie back slot covers for more exhaust airflow area around GPU.The top and back exhaust are doing little if any help. Easy way to be sure is test and see what temps are with them running and with them unplugged. My guess is they are giving little to no lower temps but are making more noise.
> I would use the stock magnetic filter on front intakes, and after testing and monitoring cooler intake air temps with NF-P14 we will have enough info to hopefully move forward to getting lower airflow temps if needed. Then if needed maybe change to a couple of the PH-F140MP fans. We want cooler intake air temp to only be a degree or 3 warmer than room air temp. They have high enough pressure rating to overcome the grill resistance and filter keeps things much cleaner.
> Once we know what case airflow is doing we will be hopefully have a better idea of how to solve problems.


NOX (spanish brand) literally copied identically the case. While it might look like a decent case it completely sucks for GPU cooling.

The GPU fills in the second and third slot, because of the mobo placement and big graphic cards have little space between them and the PSU shroud, just like mATX cases, despite the case being 50x48cm.

The guy I'm failing to help, tried everything. The front fans dont push enough air bellow the GPU but it's enough to trap the hot air that comes from the side of the GPU and goes bellow, so the GPU recycles hot air so much, that it's better to place exhausts on top and rear, and just remove the front fans at all (he has an evga 1070 amp).

Either you modify/cut the PSU shroud, cut the drive cage and mount the storage on the walls+bottom of the case and tuck the wires behind the mobo, the best you can, either just buy another case.

The case from nox it's called nox hummer zx.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## DiceAir

Mungojerrie said:


> Thanks for the advice! I'll consider removing at least on of the exhaust fans. Although I'm not entirely comfortable with removing PCIe covers(
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> just feels wrong, man
> 
> 
> ). Thankfully they are nicely perforated. And I'll put the front filter back as without it dust accumulates rather quickly.
> Again, actual temperatures are not a problem at all as only the irrational desire to improve things drives me.


I removed my pci-e covers and for me it improved gpu cooling a bit by 5C or more for me so don't be scared to remove it.


----------



## JackCY

That's what happens when not enough fresh air is getting to GPU intake area. The air is not going front to back/expansion slits, but rather from the rear slits to your GPU when you remove the covers.

---

The OP links are broken due to OCN moving their site and breaking all old links in all posts.


----------



## doyll

It's a little more complicated than just supplying cool air to GPU fans. Airflow is the science of fluid dynamics .. meaning for air to flow to cooler and equal amount of heated air coming off od cooler has to be exhausting/ leaving the case .. and this is where removing PCIe slot covers helps because is allows air to exhaust the case around GPU and thus allow more cool air to flow to GPU. 



We have to remember *'When air flows into a case it must also be alble flowing out at the same rate .. if it does not, no more can go in.' *It's what is refered to as air displacement.


To help people to understand how airflow works it usually helps for them to think of the air as water and then the idea of displacement become much easier to understand.


If we have an empty can with a bottom in it we can only put as much air (water) into that case as it will hold. 

If we have an empty can with not bottom in it we can't fill it up because it all goes out the open bottom. 

Airflow works the same way .. we can flow air through a can with a solid bottom same as we can't flow water through at can with a solid bottom.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> *PWM Fan Independent Speed Curve*
> 
> PWM fan rpm is not a fixed ratio or percentage of PWM signal. The PWM signal to rpm is part of the programming in PWM circuitry built into each PWM fan.
> 
> Here are some examples. Black graph line (top line in chart) is fan rpm; PWM % is shown across bottom of chart. Notice how all of these fans are flat-lining at idle at different minimum fan RPM. PWM% signals below this minimum fan RPM have no effect on fan. Also notice how the PWM% to rpm is not a the same progression for each fan .. it is not a linear progression, but is instead a custom progression that is programmed into each fan's internal PWM circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All graphs are from Thermalbench.com fan tests and reviews.
> 
> 
> 
> *Normal PWM Splitter with PSU Power & Auxiliary RPM Plugs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *How to Monitor RPM of Fans on Splitters & Hubs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Controlling case fans with PWM signal from motherboard CPU fan header and GPU fan header.*
> 
> 
> 
> *There are some limitations:*
> 
> 
> Obviously motherboard and GPU must have PWM
> 
> Obviously fans must be PWM
> 
> Motherboard can only support 8-9 fans (PWM signal strength gets too weak)
> 
> No idea how many fans GPU can support.
> 
> 
> *Setting up motherboard PWM control of PWM case fans:*
> 
> 
> Use a PWM splitter with molex/sata connector. Gelid and Swiftech are my preferred. I do not use Akasa PWM splitters because their wire temination into connectors is very poorly designed. Look at one and you will notice all wire distribution is at the connector .. all flex and load is at connector .. while ones like Gelid have cable distribution away form the connectors.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=17923
> 
> http://www.swiftech.com/8-waypwmsplitter.aspx
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Phobya-8x-4-Pin-Splitter-PWM/dp/B00OD7MO6E
> 
> http://silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=526&area=en
> 
> Plug PWM splitter to motherboard CPU fan header and PSU
> 
> Use CPU cooler fan as "master" fan. This is the fan that sends rpm signal to motherboard PWM header.
> 
> Additional CPU cooler fans and case fans will ramp u and down with CPU fan.
> 
> Can use a second PWM splitter on 3-way & 4-way PWM splitter.
> 
> Setup fan speed curve with motherboard bios or software. Gigabyte has EasyTune 6 and Asus has SmartFan. I set minimum at 30% fan @ 30c and maximum at 100% @ 65c. Than watch temps and see if you want more or less rpm to keep temperature and noise where you want them. My sig rig idles 24-29c @ 700rpm; 100% all cores is 42-48c :950-1050rpm.
> 
> 
> *Setting up GPU PWM control of case fans:*
> 
> 
> Obviously GPU fans need to be PWM. Because the GPU PWM header/plug is smaller than normal PWM we need a _Mini 4-Pin GPU (Female) to Mini 4-Pin GPU (Male) / 4-Pin Fan (Male) Cable Splitter Adapter_ is needed-. The blue wire going to normal PWM socket needs to be cut off of mini PWM plug. (You can use this wire to monitor rpm on case fan by connecting it to a normal 3pin fan plug in the rpm position.) Plug a PWM splitter into the normal PWM socket and PSU for case fans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini...)-{47}-4%2dPin-Fan-(Male)-Cable-Splitter.html
> 
> Case fans hooked onto this splitter will ramp up and down with GPU fans.
> 
> Use GPU software or Bios to setup fan speed curve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> modDIY has several adapters and splitters for this.
> 
> mini 4-pin PWM adapters
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini...)-{47}-4%2dPin-Fan-(Male)-Cable-Splitter.html
> 
> 
> 
> Mini 5-pin PWM adapters
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...-Dual-PH-Mini-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html
> 
> 
> 
> *GPU PWM to Normal PWM Splitter with PSU Power & Auxiliary RPM Plug*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> modDIY has several adapters and splitters for this.
> 
> *mini 4-pin PWM adapters*
> 
> Mini 4-Pin GPU (Female) to Mini 4-Pin GPU (Male) / 4-Pin Fan (Male) Cable Splitter
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/products/Mini...)-{47}-4%2dPin-Fan-(Male)-Cable-Splitter.html
> 
> 
> 
> And many more.
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/search.php?search_query=mini+VGA++fan+adapter&x=0&y=0
> 
> 
> 
> *Mini 5-pin PWM adapters*
> 
> 5-Pin VGA PWM Mini PH Connector to Dual PH Mini 4-Pin Fan Cable Splitter
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...-Dual-PH-Mini-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html
> 
> 
> 
> 5-Pin VGA PWM Mini PH Connector to Dual PWM 4-Pin Fan Cable Splitter
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...r-to-Dual-PWM-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html
> 
> http://www.moddiy.com/products/5%2d...-Dual-PH-Mini-4%2dPin-Fan-Cable-Splitter.html



Firstly, even if we interacted not long ago, tnx again for all your work.

ASUS products (1080 strix in this case, but i had a x370 prime pro with about 15 broken bios versions). A serious case of regret.... warranty stickers (im european), GPU tweak ii is broken and was never fixed, the extra fan ports, pushes 12v into the header from the start without the gpu tweak ii. It costed 70 bucks more than any other GPU, and it's a freaking piece of garbage. Also the RGB and fan connecters are so hard that you almost need pliers to remove the damn things, in order to make sure they can see if it was tinkered with.

And now to the matter....

.....been trying to mod the GPU with 2x120mm fans, and I'm trying to make it the cleanest possible, and without losing warranty, which means i cant remove the heatsink, nor break, cut, solder anything.

Third party sellers came with 5 pin connector, asus found a solution (the white one that's plugged in):







"Always in the best interest of the consumer", cus I understand that's the reason they charge more than any1 else.

Also for who needs the fan specs and model:









Did any1 manage to control the extra fan headers? is there any version of GPU tweakII that works?
Is there a way to control mobo fan headers with afterburner?


----------



## Melcar

All GPUs I have used with 5 pin mini PWM plug use a splitter that connects to regular 4 pin mini PWM for the stock fans. One can simply connect 4 pin mini PWM to regular 4 pin PWM adapters and use regular fans like that. It ends up looking a bit bulky, but that would be the easiest way.


----------



## Shenhua

Melcar said:


> All GPUs I have used with 5 pin mini PWM plug use a splitter that connects to regular 4 pin mini PWM for the stock fans. One can simply connect 4 pin mini PWM to regular 4 pin PWM adapters and use regular fans like that. It ends up looking a bit bulky, but that would be the easiest way.


You can't. The fans connectors are opposite. The first one comes attached to the splitter that has a 6 pin male main connector, a 5 pin male and a 4 pin male (the 2 aditional fans have female connectors).

I just bought the third fan ( a chinese version), and im gonna try to cut the connector and solder it to a 2 way normal fan splitter. So i ill remove the GPU fans, and connect a modded 2 way splitter to the GPU splitter.

Can't think about anything else.


----------



## Melcar

What about connecting a 4 pin mini PWM to regular PWM to that 4 pin connector on the splitter, and a powered PWM splitter hooked up to the adapter.


----------



## Shenhua

Melcar said:


> What about connecting a 4 pin mini PWM to regular PWM to that 4 pin connector on the splitter, and a powered PWM splitter hooked up to the adapter.


You can't. I already bought and returned a mini 4pin to 4 pin adapter. All of them are males, and the GPU splitter is male aswell.

Usually splitters are male to female, or the other way around. The one from Asus, is male to male.


----------



## Shenhua

I just noticed that i must buy the main fan because the GPU splitter comes attached to it, and i would have to cut mine to remove the fan... So I'll the main one and cut off the 6 pin connector and try to make it work with a 2 way normal fan splitter.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Shenhua

Looks like, they sent me the original one, since it's identical to the one from the GPU. It was bought from AliExpress for 7€.










.......aaaand i have no idea how to make it work.
Problem is that i have no idea if i should match the colors or not, since i have 4 cables on the splitter and 6 entries on the GPU main connector.

This should help you understand better my problem: https://prnt.sc/noe0b2
The pics are very descriptive aswell here:https://m.es.aliexpress.com/item/32...tedetail&spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3b5263c0OijDjK
Tnx for the help.


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> Looks like, they sent me the original one, since it's identical to the one from the GPU. It was bought from AliExpress for 7€.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .......aaaand i have no idea how to make it work.
> Problem is that i have no idea if i should match the colors or not, since i have 4 cables on the splitter and 6 entries on the GPU main connector.
> 
> This should help you understand better my problem: https://prnt.sc/noe0b2
> The pics are very descriptive aswell here:https://m.es.aliexpress.com/item/32...tedetail&spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3b5263c0OijDjK
> Tnx for the help.


I'm pretty sure this is the pin-out on older Asus GPUs was:Pin-1 = RPM sensor (from fan #2) 1x wire
Pin-2 = Ground 2x wires here
Pin-3 = +12V 2x wires here
Pin-4 = RPM sense (from Fan #1) 1x wires here
Pin-5 = PWM signal (from VGA header) 2x wires into this pin​The rpm sensor leads are single wire leads in plug.
At least that was the pinout on 2-fan Asus GPU I had.


Could you test the fan leads to each fan with a VOM with fans running and figure out which ones are what? If I remember correctly the extra leads besides power, ground and maybe PWM signal monitor fan rpm. I know htis is true of some GPUs.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> I'm pretty sure this is the pin-out on older Asus GPUs was:Pin-1 = RPM sensor (from fan #2) 1x wire
> Pin-2 = Ground 2x wires here
> Pin-3 = +12V 2x wires here
> Pin-4 = RPM sense (from Fan #1) 1x wires here
> Pin-5 = PWM signal (from VGA header) 2x wires into this pin​The rpm sensor leads are single wire leads in plug.
> At least that was the pinout on 2-fan Asus GPU I had.
> 
> 
> Could you test the fan leads to each fan with a VOM with fans running and figure out which ones are what? If I remember correctly the extra leads besides power, ground and maybe PWM signal monitor fan rpm. I know htis is true of some GPUs.


I don't have a VOM, and i have no idea how could i do that test without removing the connectors.

However i watched some mods. And i think black is ground, yellow is 12v, green is RPM and blue pwm, but idk what's the red for.....

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> I don't have a VOM, and i have no idea how could i do that test without removing the connectors.
> 
> However i watched some mods. And i think black is ground, yellow is 12v, green is RPM and blue pwm, but idk what's the red for.....
> 
> Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


You can buy a basic VOM for less than a tenner. Once you own and use one you probably won't be able to live without one. At least I couldn't.


----------



## Mungojerrie

Shenhua said:


> NOX (spanish brand) literally copied identically the case. While it might look like a decent case it completely sucks for GPU cooling.
> 
> The GPU fills in the second and third slot, because of the mobo placement and big graphic cards have little space between them and the PSU shroud, just like mATX cases, despite the case being 50x48cm.


The case indeed does look very similar. But in Aero 800 there's plenty of space between a videocard and a PSU shroud, at lest if the videocard is installed in the top PCIe x16 slot. I've had no troubles at all - I've run Radeon R9 270X, GTX 1060 and GTX 1080 Ti in in with no problems at all. Maybe there are some differences in the front mesh and/or filter configuration or maybe the fans are to blame. My former 2x Noctua NF-P14F Redux had no trouble feeding the GPU and a little bit to the CPU, but the CPU cooler seemed to draw a lot of fresh air through the upper dust filter.
But my main suspicion is that he has his videocard installed in a lower PCIe X16 or x8 slot.



DiceAir said:


> I removed my pci-e covers and for me it improved gpu cooling a bit by 5C or more for me so don't be scared to remove it.


Yeah, it makes sense but it just... i dunno, feels wrong. I woudl certainly do it if GPU temps were bad, but they aren't


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> You can buy a basic VOM for less than a tenner. Once you own and use one you probably won't be able to live without one. At least I couldn't.


Any suggestion for a very basic and cheap model. I'm really comfortable buying from AliExpress and Amazon, however im in Europe.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> Any suggestion for a very basic and cheap model. I'm really comfortable buying from AliExpress and Amazon, however im in Europe.
> 
> Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


 I don't think it makes much difference. I've never used one that didn't do the job. 

Maybe something like this one:
https://www.amazon.fr/KOBWA-Multimè...m+meter&qid=1558179740&s=apparel&sr=8-1-spell


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> I don't think it makes much difference. I've never used one that didn't do the job.
> 
> Maybe something like this one:
> https://www.amazon.fr/KOBWA-Multimè...m+meter&qid=1558179740&s=apparel&sr=8-1-spell


Got a xl830l. Seems to be very common everywhere.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Shenhua

I've done some testing today, with the fans connected elsewhere, and the temps are ****. Idk *** i did wrong but at 2k rpm the GPU was staying at 78°C.

Ppl get 10°C improvements, i get 10°C decay in temps. I'm thinking to give up, im so fking tired of fixing things and troubleshooting.... I'll try again when i get a new board and i can control them in real time, and do some testing..... but I'm very disappointed.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Gilles3000

Shenhua said:


> Any suggestion for a very basic and cheap model. I'm really comfortable buying from AliExpress and Amazon, however im in Europe.





doyll said:


> I don't think it makes much difference. I've never used one that didn't do the job.
> 
> Maybe something like this one:
> https://www.amazon.fr/KOBWA-Multimètre-Numérique-Résistance-Rétroéclairé/dp/B073FJ4DL3


Tue most of the cheap meters are fine as long as you're not doing high voltage/high current/very low current applications.

Only downside i've noticed with the cheapo's is that the fuses are mostly just for show and if you do make a mistake on anything like mains voltage, your meter is toast.

But if you want to go for an entry level quality meter, I'd suggest the Chinese market Fluke meters, (Like the 15B Plus) they're really affordable for a Fluke, but still expensive enough to be a bit of a commitment (~€70).


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Tue most of the cheap meters are fine as long as you're not doing high voltage/high current/very low current applications.
> 
> Only downside i've noticed with the cheapo's is that the fuses are mostly just for show and if you do make a mistake on anything like mains voltage, your meter is toast.
> 
> But if you want to go for an entry level quality meter, I'd suggest the Chinese market Fluke meters, (Like the 15B Plus) they're really affordable for a Fluke, but still expensive enough to be a bit of a commitment (~€70).


I have a very expensive Fluke and a couple sub $10 ones I've used for many years. Fluke is in eletronics toolbox and cheap-o's are in mechanic and camper. I actually use the cheap-o's more than Fluke and in over 50 years of use I've only smoked one cheap-o .. and that was me being stupid trying to sort taillights in driving rain.


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> I have a very expensive Fluke and a couple sub $10 ones I've used for many years. Fluke is in eletronics toolbox and cheap-o's are in mechanic and camper. I actually use the cheap-o's more than Fluke and in over 50 years of use I've only smoked one cheap-o .. and that was me being stupid trying to sort taillights in driving rain.


the way I destroyed my cheapo's is being being a numpty and trying to check mains voltage while the meter was still on continuity testing...

In my defense that happened both times after a long time of painfully sorting out the nightmare that is our house wiring.


----------



## doyll

Indeed! Situations we are extremely unlikey to ever be using our meters in our computer .. only possible if testing mains power to PSU.


----------



## Plumpm

Hello,

I'm looking to build a system with proper OC capabilities. I've never done it very seriously before, so I read your guides about airflow, and I have one question regarding the calculation of total cfm of a system : if I use a CPU cooler with two fans, do I have to add their individual airflow, or keep only one value since they're in line ?

Thanks for the guides, it's very interesting albeit overwhelming. ;D


----------



## doyll

Plumpm said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm looking to build a system with proper OC capabilities. I've never done it very seriously before, so I read your guides about airflow, and I have one question regarding the calculation of total cfm of a system : if I use a CPU cooler with two fans, do I have to add their individual airflow, or keep only one value since they're in line ?
> 
> Thanks for the guides, it's very interesting albeit overwhelming. ;D


I understand how it can be overwhelming, even with trying to simplify it as much as possible. With all the variables involved airflow is definitely not a simple science to apply to our uses. Compound that with how bad fan performance specs are and it can be a nightmare.

Two fans one behind the other is one fan of airflow. Stacking increases their static pressure rating but not the airflow rating. 

I need to edit my case airflow guide. Many cases have very restrictive venting that case intake fans need to be very high pressure rated, often need 2x for every 1x component fan of similar size, and often need to spin from half speed to full speed to supply component under load with enough cool air. 

What cases are you looking at?


----------



## Shenhua

Plumpm said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking to build a system with proper OC capabilities. I've never done it very seriously before, so I read your guides about airflow, and I have one question regarding the calculation of total cfm of a system : if I use a CPU cooler with two fans, do I have to add their individual airflow, or keep only one value since they're in line ?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the guides, it's very interesting albeit overwhelming. ;D


You can't just sum up things, because it depends on to many factors.

Get a mesh case + big air cooler. If it's spacious, even better, and if you don't want vague recomendations, let us know the hardware and conditions you have, and we will recommend you something.


----------



## Gilles3000

Plumpm said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm looking to build a system with proper OC capabilities. I've never done it very seriously before, so I read your guides about airflow, and I have one question regarding the calculation of total cfm of a system : if I use a CPU cooler with two fans, do I have to add their individual airflow, or keep only one value since they're in line ?
> 
> Thanks for the guides, it's very interesting albeit overwhelming. ;D


You can't add them, but while airflow does not increase, pressure does with 2 fans in line, and with increased pressure you lose less airflow to the restrictions like the heatsink.

The airflow that's marketed on the product page is the airflow with no restriction, you can't use it to determine airflow trough the heatsink anyway. I'd say the airflow of 2 fans if probably still less than one in open air.

Edit: welp, seems like this was already answered, should've refreshed the page first...
So unfortunately its impossible to determine the exact airflow trough the heatsink without actually testing it.


----------



## Plumpm

Ok, thank you. It makes sense that the static pressure is the thing going up.




doyll said:


> What cases are you looking at?





Shenhua said:


> [...] let us know the hardware and conditions you have, and we will recommend you something.



Like some here I'm sure, I'm going to buy a Zen 2 processor. I can't know which one, waiting for the reviews. Eight cores look promising. For the GPU I don't know yet, the goal is gaming at 1440p at a high refresh rate. Performance-wise, RTX 2070 is tempting.


I chose the case, a Meshify C. The cooler I have is an NH-U12P SE2, but I plan on buying a different air cooler since I'll keep my current setup for something else. Maybe Noctua again, I do appreciate a proper client support. For extra fans worth using, I already have two NF-F12. So I'm looking to buy two or three more fans on top of that.


As I said Noctua is a good brand and I've had a good experience with them so far, but if I'm missing a great deal for cooling, please tell me !


Oh and I live in France, ambient temps rarely go over 25°C.


Thank you for your help.


----------



## Shenhua

I have the same case, and my ambient temp is bellow 25°C aswell. 

Already tested many things in this case, so i can save you some time. 

Best fan config. for performance/noise is 3 intake and no exhausts (a rear fan can be beneficial at very high loads but even then, the temp drop is about 2-4°C (depends on your maximum temps)). The case only supports officially 3x120 in the front. I have 2x140+1x120mm (the 120mm is on the low side of the front and zip tied).

Don't run excessively high the mid fan, it will have an impact on the CPU, but it will behave weird on the GPU. On one side you force more air, to the GPU, and on the other hand you force it to recycle heated air.

Remove the pci-e brackets from the back of the case, tuck the cables behind the mobo the best you can don't leave them down, and remove the top of the PSU shroud. I have removed the drive cage aswell. 
Don't mount anything on the 2.5" slots behind the socket. They will unnecessarily get 15-20°C temp increase.

I'm using the bottom for for installing the storage. There's no official support for it, but all the bottom is perforated, so it's pretty easy to mount 2 drives there. It's the best option for the case airflow and for the storage temps.

I would get the le grand macho RT since it's a perfect match for the case ( I'll probably get it, when I'll do a CPU upgrade) and if you go for 3x120 in the front, just add another f12. If you wanna copy my front setup, don't get nf a14's. Get sw3. (had both of them)


----------



## Plumpm

Thanks for all the tips, I'll keep them in mind. When you say to not install anything behind the socket, are you talking about the blue "plate" in the attached image ? Does it really add 15°C on the CPU ? That's crazy.


----------



## Shenhua

Plumpm said:


> Thanks for all the tips, I'll keep them in mind. When you say to not install anything behind the socket, are you talking about the blue "plate" in the attached image ? Does it really add 15°C on the CPU ? That's crazy.


Yep.

Edited. Not to the CPU, to the drives. CPU doesn't care much, but my SSD from the usual 40s, behind the mobo, was staying between 55 and 60 depending on the ambient temp.


----------



## doyll

It's not uncommon to se much higher temps when CPU hole in case is blocked because it usually allows some airflow between motherboard and mounting panel with air moving through the CPU access hole.


----------



## Robostyle

What's the best fan solution for best case airflow exists on the market today, among 120 and 140mm fans? 
Pure perfomance or perfomance/price, but price isn't the most concern here atm.


----------



## doyll

Robostyle said:


> What's the best fan solution for best case airflow exists on the market today, among 120 and 140mm fans?
> Pure perfomance or perfomance/price, but price isn't the most concern here atm.


Is noise a consern? I ask because for most of us it is eqully important as airflow is.


----------



## Robostyle

doyll said:


> Is noise a consern? I ask because for most of us it is eqully important as airflow is.


Ofc. I must say, it's even #1 concern, I won't hesitate sacrificing some airflow for silence. 
So basically, the best options for airflow under 800/1000/1200rpm, right?


----------



## ciarlatano

Robostyle said:


> Ofc. I must say, it's even #1 concern, I won't hesitate sacrificing some airflow for silence.
> So basically, the best options for airflow under 800/1000/1200rpm, right?


Thermalbench is down at the moment, or I would post up data. The be quiet! Silent Wings 3 are pretty much the undisputed leader in airflow to noise in 120 and 140mm, and have a really smooth sound signature.


----------



## doyll

Robostyle said:


> Ofc. I must say, it's even #1 concern, I won't hesitate sacrificing some airflow for silence.
> So basically, the best options for airflow under 800/1000/1200rpm, right?



Best in my book are be quiet! Silent Wings 3 140mm PWM high speed with same in 120mm 2nd best, but only because 140mm fans tend to flow more air at same noise level by a 2:3 ratio. It takes 3x 120mm fans to equal the same airflow as 2x 140mm fans making less noise.


----------



## Robostyle

Yeah, I agree about 140mm - thankfully, my case supports 140mm all over, so I think 140mm is a way to go. 

So, be quiet! Silent Wings 3 it is then. They are really good at low RPM - misunderstood that part about "PWM high speed"?

P.S. BTW, at the moment I'm using eLoops as radiator fans + one Noctua A14 chromax, and I must admit, overall, six 120mm NoiseBlockers are way quieter than one 140mm noctua. That might be placement issue, but this made me think that I should ask for options first before blindly buying noctua once again :/


----------



## doyll

Indeed, even if Silent Wings 3 have same DBa sound pressure level it's a much more pleasant sound so we don't notice it as much.


----------



## doyll

Robostyle said:


> Yeah, I agree about 140mm - thankfully, my case supports 140mm all over, so I think 140mm is a way to go.
> 
> So, be quiet! Silent Wings 3 it is then. They are really good at low RPM - misunderstood that part about "PWM high speed"?
> 
> P.S. BTW, at the moment I'm using eLoops as radiator fans + one Noctua A14 chromax, and I must admit, overall, six 120mm NoiseBlockers are way quieter than one 140mm noctua. That might be placement issue, but this made me think that I should ask for options first before blindly buying noctua once again :/



The "PWM high speed" is PWM control with maximum speed of 1600rpm instead of maximum speed of only 1000rpm. While probably 99% of the time 1000rpm is as fast as you will run them, there might be a few occasions when the extra speed will be nice to have .. like super hot days when case filters are dirty.


----------



## Mungojerrie

Regarding be quiet! Silent Wings 3 140mm PWM High Speed fans - I have two of them installed as intake and compared to my previous Noctua NF P14s Redux-1200 PWM they have superior characteristics but they also emit this weird high-pitched grinding noise. It sounds like something in between a tiny stream of running water and crickets chirping at night. It's not loud and I usually don't notice it but with Noctua Redux fans I only heard the aerodynamic noise. So a _tiny_ bit of buyer's remorse here.


----------



## Shenhua

Mungojerrie said:


> Regarding be quiet! Silent Wings 3 140mm PWM High Speed fans - I have two of them installed as intake and compared to my previous Noctua NF P14s Redux-1200 PWM they have superior characteristics but they also emit this weird high-pitched grinding noise. It sounds like something in between a tiny stream of running water and crickets chirping at night. It's not loud and I usually don't notice it but with Noctua Redux fans I only heard the aerodynamic noise. So a _tiny_ bit of buyer's remorse here.


That sounds broken

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## adamra

@doyll


Just a couple of questions regarding air flow, once your intake fans have met or exceeded the CFM requirement of your component fans, is it a waste of power and/or possibly detrimental to have even more CFM intake? (4 intake fans when you only need 3 to meet CFM requirement, as an example).
My second question is if you have a vertical front intake fan and a horizontal bottom intake fan pretty darn close to each other, does this mess with the flow at all? 

Thanks!


----------



## doyll

adamra said:


> @doyll
> 
> 
> Just a couple of questions regarding air flow, once your intake fans have met or exceeded the CFM requirement of your component fans, is it a waste of power and/or possibly detrimental to have even more CFM intake? (4 intake fans when you only need 3 to meet CFM requirement, as an example).
> My second question is if you have a vertical front intake fan and a horizontal bottom intake fan pretty darn close to each other, does this mess with the flow at all?
> 
> Thanks!


First thing here is 'CFM' is a very misleading term. The CFM specification on fans is total unrestricted flow ... like hanging fan in middle of room. Some fan specs CFM have fan mounted in a panel between two pressure controlled spaces and keeps the pressure on exhaust side of fans identical to intake side of fan, something completely impossible to have in actual use. Simple physics of fans means pressure on exhaust side is higher than intake side. 

So don't use fan specs as a rule when setting up case airflow. Use them as a guide of about 1/2 actual CFM to spec for intakes behind grilled and filtered vents at 50% or higher speed. Cooler fans can be guessed to be about 2/3rds of spec. 

Better yet, monitor airflow temp into cooler over entire rpm range we are using them and adjusts speeds as needed to keep that air temp as close to air temp entering case as possible. Anything less than 5c warmer is okay .. I like it to be 2-3c maximum.

Front and bottom intakes will effect each other but generally both help airflow to GPU. Again, the best way to know for sure is to monitor air temp going into GPU fans .. and sometimes CPU fans if those intakes are pushing more air than GPU is using and the excess is pushing GPU exhaust up into airflow to CPU from other intakes.


----------



## Dtshaw

Hey,

I am thinking about switching out the fans that came out with my Phantek P600s with some SW3 PWM High performance fans. I find the stock fans rather lackluster in regards to airflow and have to open up the case to stop my GPU from going up to 55 percent fan speed and 85c (AMD MSI 390, about to switch to Sapphire Nitro+ 5700xt or 2070 super)

I also noticed when switching the stock fans upto 70 percent can hear quite a bit of motor noise and not that much of an improvement in regards to airflow. 

So, i am just curious if i replaced all 3 of them with SW3 PWM High performance fans would cure the problem?. I should also note i am optimizing for silence.


----------



## Shenhua

Dtshaw said:


> Hey,
> 
> 
> 
> I am thinking about switching out the fans that came out with my Phantek P600s with some SW3 PWM High performance fans. I find the stock fans rather lackluster in regards to airflow and have to open up the case to stop my GPU from going up to 55 percent fan speed and 85c (AMD MSI 390, about to switch to Sapphire Nitro+ 5700xt or 2070 super)
> 
> 
> 
> I also noticed when switching the stock fans upto 70 percent can hear quite a bit of motor noise and not that much of an improvement in regards to airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> So, i am just curious if i replaced all 3 of them with SW3 PWM High performance fans would cure the problem?. I should also note i am optimizing for silence.


If you want silence, dont try to mitigate the issue. Fix it at its core.

GPU cooling sucks?!, so just improve GPU cooling! Change the fans on the GPU.

Also. Keeping the solid front panel on, it's not optimising for silence, it's choking the case.


----------



## doyll

Dtshaw said:


> Hey,
> 
> I am thinking about switching out the fans that came out with my Phantek P600s with some SW3 PWM High performance fans. I find the stock fans rather lackluster in regards to airflow and have to open up the case to stop my GPU from going up to 55 percent fan speed and 85c (AMD MSI 390, about to switch to Sapphire Nitro+ 5700xt or 2070 super)
> 
> I also noticed when switching the stock fans upto 70 percent can hear quite a bit of motor noise and not that much of an improvement in regards to airflow.
> 
> So, i am just curious if i replaced all 3 of them with SW3 PWM High performance fans would cure the problem?. I should also note i am optimizing for silence.


 I don't know what P600 stock fans are but probably not very good. 3x SW3 will definitely do a better job of supplying air to system, especially with front closed. 

As Shenhua said, front venting is extremely limited when closed with maybe vent area equal to 1x 120mm fan. So regardless of how good the case intake fans are this extremely small intake vent area will limit their airflow.

Also as he said, GPU coolers are terrible. Not only do they dump heated air everywhere, they use thin fans that don't move much air unless at high speed making lots of noise. Simple way to help GPU cooler is remove stock fans and shroud and use a couple of 120mm or 3x 80/90mm fans attached to fins with zipties.Google images for "fans on GPU" to see 25mm thick fans on GPUs .. some are ghetto but some look fine. Another option is get an aftermarket GPU cooler like Alpenfohn Peter, DeepCool Dracula, Raijintek Morpheus, etc., but that is a lot more money than 2x or 3x 80mm or 90mm fans and some zip-ties. Here is one of mine using 3x Arctic F90 fans. I used PWM on this one, but used Arctic F TC (temperature controlled w/ sensor leads that slip between cooler and GPU PCB). Might need to move them a few times to get them sensing temp and running at speeds needed, but easier than trying to find fan plug adapters from normal fan plug to GPU fan plug. Some motherboards have GPU temp control on some headers and using PWM fans with PWM splitter using PSU power works very well.


----------



## Dogzilla07

The fans in the P600s look to be the same as those in Enthoo Pro M and other similar Phanteks cases. But yes SW3 PWM High performance would definitely be better.


----------



## doyll

Dogzilla07 said:


> The fans in the P600s look to be the same as those in Enthoo Pro M and other similar Phanteks cases. But yes SW3 PWM High performance would definitely be better.


 If they are then they are b Older Eclipse cases came with a different fan, but now they do look to be the SP/MP impeller fans. aBsically a PH-F120SP motor and housing with PH-F120MP impeller which are pretty good fans, but like I said, the front with center panel on has extremely low airflow ability. To get quite performance will likey require keeping that panel open/off for fans to flow enough air at low / quiet speeds.


----------



## Dtshaw

Shenhua said:


> If you want silence, dont try to mitigate the issue. Fix it at its core.
> 
> GPU cooling sucks?!, so just improve GPU cooling! Change the fans on the GPU.
> 
> Also. Keeping the solid front panel on, it's not optimising for silence, it's choking the case.


Well, that's the thing. The GPU is going very soon. If i am trying to optimize noise/airflow. I surely should do it with the final configuration seeing as this MSI 390 was lackluster from the get go and the Sapphire nitro 5700xt + MSI 2070 super gaming X trio seem superior in cooling solution and quietness acording to mass reviews.


----------



## Dtshaw

doyll said:


> If they are then they are b Older Eclipse cases came with a different fan, but now they do look to be the SP/MP impeller fans. aBsically a PH-F120SP motor and housing with PH-F120MP impeller which are pretty good fans, but like I said, the front with center panel on has extremely low airflow ability. To get quite performance will likey require keeping that panel open/off for fans to flow enough air at low / quiet speeds.



Well, i had the front panel off.. the duster filter and it still gave pathetic airflow at best. I could ramp it to a 100 percent and even then could only notice a bit of a difference...


----------



## doyll

Dtshaw said:


> Well, i had the front panel off.. the duster filter and it still gave pathetic airflow at best. I could ramp it to a 100 percent and even then could only notice a bit of a difference...


Have you blocked all openings in front fan mounting panel not covered by the fans? I forgot to tell you that needs to be done so the air fans are pushing into case does not leak back into the space between case front and intake fans and have air going in a circle instead of on back and out of case. Sorry about that.


----------



## Shenhua

Ppl from reviews come from the 100% fan speed era. They don't know silence. My strix 1080 was supposed to have one of the best coolers and supposed te be one of the quietest cards. That **** at 1800-2200rpm only quiet or silent isn't.

Stock fans are ****, doesn't matter if you buy a $100 GPU or a an rtx 2080 ti msi lightning. It's still gonna be crap.

It doesn't matter if you stick with this GPU or you buy one, just change the fans, and since you looking for one, get a model with a thick radiator and that uses 4pin mini PWM connector so you can buy a splitter, plug the fans into the GPU and control them by GPU temp. Asus uses a 6 pin connector, so avoid them. The 2070 msi model you mentioned fit the characteristics i talked above.

Belive me, there's no comparison between the best GPU stock fans and 2x120 sw3 attached to the radiator with zip ties.
For me it was 9-10°C improvement and running the fans at 800-1200 rpm, which in comparison with 1800-2200rpm stock fans, 3-4 times less noisy.


Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Dtshaw

doyll said:


> Have you blocked all openings in front fan mounting panel not covered by the fans? I forgot to tell you that needs to be done so the air fans are pushing into case does not leak back into the space between case front and intake fans and have air going in a circle instead of on back and out of case. Sorry about that.


Ah, thanks for the info!. I am still gonna go towards the SW3 High performance PWM fans though!. I was thinking maybe two at the front and one SW2 at the back as i don't need the extra pressure for the exhaust fan.


----------



## Shenhua

Dtshaw said:


> Ah, thanks for the info!. I am still gonna go towards the SW3 High performance PWM fans though!. I was thinking maybe two at the front and one SW2 at the back as i don't need the extra pressure for the exhaust fan.


You're not gonna get anything from them. They are marginally better than what you have. That at 100% fan speed.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

Dtshaw said:


> Ah, thanks for the info!. I am still gonna go towards the SW3 High performance PWM fans though!. I was thinking maybe two at the front and one SW2 at the back as i don't need the extra pressure for the exhaust fan.


 Same applies to them. I looked at some pics and your stock fans look to be what Dogzilla07 said and I told you exactly what they are .. so while not as good as SW3, they are not at all bad .. and don't cost you your first born and wife to buy like SW3s' do. Block all openings in fan mounting panel becuase if there are any openings there not blocked or coverd by fans the fans are not pushing air thought the case like they should. It is much easier for the air the fans are pushing into case to come back in front of fans than it is for them to pull air through the filter and grill. 

You don't need any rear exhaust fan. Remove all PCIe bakc slot covers and you will be good. I'm betting if you block all openings in front not covered by fans it will run cool and quiet with the fans you have .. that is assuming the GPU fans are not the source of noise.


----------



## Dtshaw

doyll said:


> Same applies to them. I looked at some pics and your stock fans look to be what Dogzilla07 said and I told you exactly what they are .. so while not as good as SW3, they are not at all bad .. and don't cost you your first born and wife to buy like SW3s' do. Block all openings in fan mounting panel becuase if there are any openings there not blocked or coverd by fans the fans are not pushing air thought the case like they should. It is much easier for the air the fans are pushing into case to come back in front of fans than it is for them to pull air through the filter and grill.
> 
> You don't need any rear exhaust fan. Remove all PCIe bakc slot covers and you will be good. I'm betting if you block all openings in front not covered by fans it will run cool and quiet with the fans you have .. that is assuming the GPU fans are not the source of noise.


Yeah, i see what you mean, though i have to say the Phantek MP 140mm fans i had generated a lot more airflow with the same amount of noise at the same RPM. It's not like money is an issue though.


----------



## doyll

Dtshaw said:


> Yeah, i see what you mean, though i have to say the Phantek MP 140mm fans i had generated a lot more airflow with the same amount of noise at the same RPM. It's not like money is an issue though.


How do you know what the airflow is if half of it is leaking back in front of the fans? Aslo, MP are 1600rpm while XP are 1200rpm. That makes a huge difference in airflow and pressure rating. The XP has higher cfm at same speed as MP, but MP has higher pressure .. so what happens is the extra pressure means airflow overcomes resistance easier and we end up with more airflow .. assuming you have blocked all openings in fan mounting panel.


----------



## Dtshaw

doyll said:


> How do you know what the airflow is if half of it is leaking back in front of the fans? Aslo, MP are 1600rpm while XP are 1200rpm. That makes a huge difference in airflow and pressure rating. The XP has higher cfm at same speed as MP, but MP has higher pressure .. so what happens is the extra pressure means airflow overcomes resistance easier and we end up with more airflow .. assuming you have blocked all openings in fan mounting panel.


Well, if i am being honest blocking all the holes in the front panel apart from the fans sounds like a lot of effort and if the SW3 with it's static pressure can counter that without the need for doing that. I am more than willing to pay the extra cash. 

Don't get me wrong, all this information will help me from here on and nothing is ever as simple as saying will X cure Y due to the variables. 

P.S Does the dustfilter technically not "Block all the openings"?


----------



## doyll

Dtshaw said:


> Well, if i am being honest blocking all the holes in the front panel apart from the fans sounds like a lot of effort and if the SW3 with it's static pressure can counter that without the need for doing that. I am more than willing to pay the extra cash.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, all this information will help me from here on and nothing is ever as simple as saying will X cure Y due to the variables.


 Leaving those openings open is like trying to scoop a bucket full of water from a pond when bucket has not bottom in it.
Fans with more static pressure won't help. We need to have the air only moving from fan toward back of case, not leaking back in front of fan. 

All you need some pieces of paper and some tape or glue stick and cut paper to fit over fan mounting panel from inside of case covering all opening except where fans are. 

If you can't be bothered to setup airflow so it can work why should I bother trying to help. You either don't understand how airflow works, don't care, or don't think I know what I'm talking about. Any one of those is good enough reason for me to stop trying to help.


----------



## Dtshaw

doyll said:


> Leaving those openings open is like trying to scoop a bucket full of water from a pond when bucket has not bottom in it.
> Fans with more static pressure won't help. We need to have the air only moving from fan toward back of case, not leaking back in front of fan.
> 
> All you need some pieces of paper and some tape or glue stick and cut paper to fit over fan mounting panel from inside of case covering all opening except where fans are.
> 
> If you can't be bothered to setup airflow so it can work why should I bother trying to help. You either don't understand how airflow works, don't care, or don't think I know what I'm talking about. Any one of those is good enough reason for me to stop trying to help.


The paper with the tape is the method i tried and as said above the only holes are in the dustfilter. i even thanked you for all the information but if that's how you want to interpret said words and me asking questions. Live and let live


----------



## doyll

Dtshaw said:


> The paper with the tape is the method i tried and as said above the only holes are in the dustfilter. i even thanked you for all the information but if that's how you want to interpret said words and me asking questions. Live and let live


Really??? 

Your post about blocking holes:


> Well, if i am being honest blocking all the holes in the front panel apart from the fans sounds like a lot of effort and if the SW3 with it's static pressure can counter that without the need for doing that. I am more than willing to pay the extra cash.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, all this information will help me from here on and nothing is ever as simple as saying will X cure Y due to the variables.


Nothing there about you actually blocking the openings.


The dust filter in in very front panel .. in front of the fans. We are talking about the panel about 2 inches from dust filter / grill panel that the fans are screwed onto.


----------



## eBombzor

doyll said:


> I don't know what P600 stock fans are but probably not very good. 3x SW3 will definitely do a better job of supplying air to system, especially with front closed.
> 
> As Shenhua said, front venting is extremely limited when closed with maybe vent area equal to 1x 120mm fan. So regardless of how good the case intake fans are this extremely small intake vent area will limit their airflow.
> 
> Also as he said, GPU coolers are terrible. Not only do they dump heated air everywhere, they use thin fans that don't move much air unless at high speed making lots of noise. Simple way to help GPU cooler is remove stock fans and shroud and use a couple of 120mm or 3x 80/90mm fans attached to fins with zipties.Google images for "fans on GPU" to see 25mm thick fans on GPUs .. some are ghetto but some look fine. Another option is get an aftermarket GPU cooler like Alpenfohn Peter, DeepCool Dracula, Raijintek Morpheus, etc., but that is a lot more money than 2x or 3x 80mm or 90mm fans and some zip-ties. Here is one of mine using 3x Arctic F90 fans. I used PWM on this one, but used Arctic F TC (temperature controlled w/ sensor leads that slip between cooler and GPU PCB). Might need to move them a few times to get them sensing temp and running at speeds needed, but easier than trying to find fan plug adapters from normal fan plug to GPU fan plug. Some motherboards have GPU temp control on some headers and using PWM fans with PWM splitter using PSU power works very well.


This is not possible with some recent cards from EVGA or ASUS (MSI/the AMD brands don't seem to have this issue) as they have this soldered metal bracket that connects the shroud and the fans to the heatsink. I have this problem with my EVGA 2060 and not even my 90mm fan can fit under those idiotic metal tabs that jut out like an inch high. It's ridiculous that they added these. Not to mention the screws that unscrew the shroud are covered under dense plastic now.

https://hardforum.com/threads/ncase...n-first-post.1717132/page-680#post-1043883004

Of course you can rip it off but that voids the warranty and takes a lot of elbow grease. ASUS card -> https://imgur.com/zqVruBd

The design teams went full Apple on these cards.


----------



## doyll

eBombzor said:


> This is not possible with some recent cards from EVGA or ASUS (MSI/the AMD brands don't seem to have this issue) as they have this soldered metal bracket that connects the shroud and the fans to the heatsink. I have this problem with my EVGA 2060 and not even my 90mm fan can fit under those idiotic metal tabs that jut out like an inch high. It's ridiculous that they added these. Not to mention the screws that unscrew the shroud are covered under dense plastic now.
> 
> https://hardforum.com/threads/ncase...n-first-post.1717132/page-680#post-1043883004
> 
> Of course you can rip it off but that voids the warranty and takes a lot of elbow grease. ASUS card -> https://imgur.com/zqVruBd
> 
> The design teams went full Apple on these cards.


Bummer. I suppose if user has plenty of open PCIe slots a shroud from fins out past metal frame with fans on outside might work. Would make GPU over an inch thicker than stock.


----------



## XtrathiccFan

The fan blade comparison doesn't make any sense. The blade angle and curvature are different between A14 and TY-147. Those parameters affect the performance and noise the most, e.g. A12x25 , MF120 AB, and gentle typhoon.

While running both fans (TY-147 and A14) at 1300rpm, the "loudness" or dBa is about the same, but TY-147 has a lot of air turbulence sound while A14 sounds smoother. Sound profile is subjective, but that's just my opinion.



















Due to different blade angle and curvature, TY-147 (TY-143 in this case) is quieter but performs worse than A14 at same RPM.










TY-147 is about half the price of A14, which is okay for those who don't care about noise profile and want similar noise normalized performance.

However, *DO NOT* mount TY-147 horizontally because of its sleeve bearing, it start making a lot of bearing noise after 3 months. 

Reference:
http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/19/thermalright-ty-143-sq-140-mm-fan/3/


----------



## doyll

XtrathiccFan said:


> The fan blade comparison doesn't make any sense. The blade angle and curvature are different between A14 and TY-147. Those parameters affect the performance and noise the most, e.g. A12x25 , MF120 AB, and gentle typhoon.
> 
> While running both fans (TY-147 and A14) at 1300rpm, the "loudness" or dBa is about the same, but TY-147 has a lot of air turbulence sound while A14 sounds smoother. Sound profile is subjective, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> Due to different blade angle and curvature, TY-147 (TY-143 in this case) is quieter but performs worse than A14 at same RPM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TY-147 is about half the price of A14, which is okay for those who don't care about noise profile and want similar noise normalized performance.
> 
> However, *DO NOT* mount TY-147 horizontally because of its sleeve bearing, it start making a lot of bearing noise after 3 months.
> 
> Reference:
> http://thermalbench.com/2016/08/19/thermalright-ty-143-sq-140-mm-fan/3/



I dissagree. I prefer TY-14x series fans to NF-A14 hands down. They move more air at same nosise level.


Also you are blowing smoke with no fire .. TY-14x FDB / sleeve bearing run for years without issue. I have TY-140 in bottom of Define R2 case t for 9-10 years running pretty much 24/7 and still going strong. It's quieter than TY-143 on cooler .. and many other TY-140's in other builds with no issues. If I get up real close I can hear the ball-bearing in TY-143 after all these years. TY-140 has been OEM for long, long time because Thermalright changed colors to black/white from grey/blue or whatever colors the TY-140 are. Then a few years later to TY-147A with lower idle and speed curve. 



These Thermalright fan were / are may people's prefered fan when they can get them at reasonable prices. They perform well, are quiet and last a long, long time.


----------



## Melcar

For me the TYs move less air than the A14s or even the A15s, and cool slightly better. The TYs are much quieter with a smoother sound profile, however.


----------



## Nidonas

Hello there,
Recently i got my brother's old pc which consists of:

Cooler Master haf 922. It comes with the stock fans. 1 front 200mm intake, 1 top 200mm exhaust, 1 rear 120mm exhaust. This is the version with the transparent window, so no fans can be installed at the side panel.
Asus p8z77-v
Intel 3570k. It comes with the stock cooler. It used to have a Swiftech h220x and was overclocked at 4.6Ghz 1.33v. The chip did not have thermal issues. It just needed a lot of voltage for stability.
4 x 4GB Corsair vengeance 1600CL9. According to corsair they are 52.5mm tall.
Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 gaming.


First, I want to install a new aircooler. My intention is to clock back at 4.5-4.6 Ghz. I was looking for budget options. My initial thought is Thermalright True Spirit 140 Power at 50€.

About height: Cooler Master says the case clearance is 160mm but this is with a 200mm installed at the side panel. I measured at least 180mm, as exprected since no fan can be installed there.
About length: According to my measurements TS140P will only cover the mobo's first PCIe slot, which is not being used. The GPU and its x16 slot are ok.
About width: I measured the cpu center to ram distance at about 52-54mm. TS140P width from cpu center to ram is 80mm - (53/2) = 53.5mm.
That's about the same distance and the tall ram height does not help things at all. In case it doesn't fit,i think i 've read that the fan can be installed at the back of the radiator as pull. If i recall correctly, there is enough room for it to fit that way.

Should the above sound problematic, i will probably go for a Scythe Mugen Rev. B at 45€ or a Fuma 2 at 50€, since they do not interfere with ram at all. No retailer sells the Macho Rev. C here yet.

Second, i want to improve the case airflow. As a given though that the cpu cooler is a tower.
I have ordered a cheap thermometer from aliexpress to monitor the temps, but it will arrive after a month(hopefully).
Since the system is not originally mine i will not perform irreversible modifications, like cutting and drilling the case.

As mentioned earlier the installed fans are 1 front 200mm intake, 1 top 200mm exhaust, 1 rear 120mm exhaust. I think the 200mm are Megaflow. They provide poor pressure at 0.595 mmH2O at 800 rpm. The 120mm i know it's just 1200 rpm.
At the 3.5" bay i have installed only 1 hdd and an ssd at the bottom. I have removed all other hdd enclosures. The 5.25" bay is empty.
Again, i consider budget options like Arctic p14. I can buy the pwm 5-pack at 30€ and the non-pwm pack at 25€

Having read the thread i'm thinking of :

installing a 140mm fan as an intake at the 5.25" bay. Ghetto style with zip ties. Should i also put a tunnel to better aim at the cpu?
closing the front vents which are not covered by the intake fans.
opening the PCIe case slots to help the gpu.
maybe adding a bottom 140mm intake fan and lifting the case up a bit. If not then covering the bottom vents, so air cannot escape.

About the installed fans:

It seems that the top 200mm exhaust is unnecessary and should just go away. I think i can leave the vents as they are.
Now what about the other two? 
I can replace the front 200mm with either a 120mm or a 140mm. Cooler Master's specs are wrong that 2x120mm can be installed at the front. Should i bother at all?
About the 120mm rear fan. The maximum supported fan size is 120mm. I can fit a 140mm tightly with zip ties. I'm afraid that will lead to vibrations though. I will probably leave this as is. Furthermore if i am forced to install the TS140P fan as pull, won't the 120mm fan become somewhat redundant?

Whew, that was a long post. Any suggestions are welcome.


----------



## D-EJ915

I didn't notice much sound difference between my A14 IPPC 2000 and my Cooljag and TY fans. The only one that is more annoying is the TY-143 which both of mine have bearing noise. If sound quality is a concern just order 1 of each from amazon and return the one you don't like because they all perform about the same. This is what I did for myself although I kept them.


----------



## XtrathiccFan

doyll said:


> I dissagree. I prefer TY-14x series fans to NF-A14 hands down. They move more air at same nosise level.
> 
> 
> Also you are blowing smoke with no fire .. TY-14x FDB / sleeve bearing run for years without issue. I have TY-140 in bottom of Define R2 case t for 9-10 years running pretty much 24/7 and still going strong. It's quieter than TY-143 on cooler .. and many other TY-140's in other builds with no issues. If I get up real close I can hear the ball-bearing in TY-143 after all these years. TY-140 has been OEM for long, long time because Thermalright changed colors to black/white from grey/blue or whatever colors the TY-140 are. Then a few years later to TY-147A with lower idle and speed curve.
> 
> 
> 
> These Thermalright fan were / are may people's prefered fan when they can get them at reasonable prices. They perform well, are quiet and last a long, long time.


Maybe I got a defective unit, it did start to rattle after 3 month of use, I am not making that up. I RMA'ed and sold it though.

Personal preference is, well, personal preference. You prefer TY-14x due to its "reasonable" price, I prefer A14 for its bearing and smoother sound profile. There is no right or wrong choosing either, that's just personal preference after all.

TY-143's ball-bearing sound is very present while running at 1000 rpm, maybe you don't mind it, but some people do.

As for performance, I would rather believe independent review.


----------



## blue.dot

Whats the second best or third best option for intake fans? I finally got decent case (Fractal Design Focus G), and while it already has two 120mm fans pre-installed, I'd rather something better (I find them bit noisy and the white LED is really strong for my taste, I'd rather have no LEDs at all..). But I'd like to keep it low budget. From my previous case, I have CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 and a semi-decent AKASA 120mm fan, both PWM. The CM one is pretty good I think, I believe its also used on Hyper 212, so I was thinking of putting it as exhaust? And then buying two 140mm fans as intakes.

I do have the HDD bay installed on the bottom, but since its causing a lot of vibrations, I'm thinking of pulling it out and moving the HDD to the ODD bay up top. Then the bottom fan would have no obstruction behind it.

Also while I'm at this topic, what do you guys use for fan control? SpeedFan unfortunately doesn't support the IO chip on my B450 Tomahawk, I have tried (and paid) for Argus few years ago, but not sure I want to do it again just to have a software fan control. The MSI apps sucks and takes huge system resources...


----------



## XtrathiccFan

blue.dot said:


> Whats the second best or third best option for intake fans? I finally got decent case (Fractal Design Focus G), and while it already has two 120mm fans pre-installed, I'd rather something better (I find them bit noisy and the white LED is really strong for my taste, I'd rather have no LEDs at all..). But I'd like to keep it low budget. From my previous case, I have CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 and a semi-decent AKASA 120mm fan, both PWM. The CM one is pretty good I think, I believe its also used on Hyper 212, so I was thinking of putting it as exhaust? And then buying two 140mm fans as intakes.
> 
> I do have the HDD bay installed on the bottom, but since its causing a lot of vibrations, I'm thinking of pulling it out and moving the HDD to the ODD bay up top. Then the bottom fan would have no obstruction behind it.
> 
> Also while I'm at this topic, what do you guys use for fan control? SpeedFan unfortunately doesn't support the IO chip on my B450 Tomahawk, I have tried (and paid) for Argus few years ago, but not sure I want to do it again just to have a software fan control. The MSI apps sucks and takes huge system resources...


Thermalright C-12 is pretty good, slightly better performance and slightly louder than Noctua A12x25 while being half of the price of A12x25.

Though C-12 seems to be only available in China and Taiwan.


----------



## doyll

Melcar said:


> For me the TYs move less air than the A14s or even the A15s, and cool slightly better. The TYs are much quieter with a smoother sound profile, however.


While some of what you say I agree with, some I don't understand your post. How can a fan flow less air and cool slightly better? And if a fan has a smoother sound profile isn't it less noticeable / sound quieter to listener?




D-EJ915 said:


> I didn't notice much sound difference between my A14 IPPC 2000 and my Cooljag and TY fans. The only one that is more annoying is the TY-143 which both of mine have bearing noise. If sound quality is a concern just order 1 of each from amazon and return the one you don't like because they all perform about the same. This is what I did for myself although I kept them.





XtrathiccFan said:


> Maybe I got a defective unit, it did start to rattle after 3 month of use, I am not making that up. I RMA'ed and sold it though.
> 
> Personal preference is, well, personal preference. You prefer TY-14x due to its "reasonable" price, I prefer A14 for its bearing and smoother sound profile. There is no right or wrong choosing either, that's just personal preference after all.
> 
> TY-143's ball-bearing sound is very present while running at 1000 rpm, maybe you don't mind it, but some people do. True, we all have differen
> 
> As for performance, I would rather believe independent review.


I prefer TYs not so much because they were lower priced but because they more plenty of air at very low inobstrusive sound. Indeed, it's personal preference. :thumb:




blue.dot said:


> Whats the second best or third best option for intake fans? I finally got decent case (Fractal Design Focus G), and while it already has two 120mm fans pre-installed, I'd rather something better (I find them bit noisy and the white LED is really strong for my taste, I'd rather have no LEDs at all..). But I'd like to keep it low budget. From my previous case, I have CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 and a semi-decent AKASA 120mm fan, both PWM. The CM one is pretty good I think, I believe its also used on Hyper 212, so I was thinking of putting it as exhaust? And then buying two 140mm fans as intakes.
> 
> I do have the HDD bay installed on the bottom, but since its causing a lot of vibrations, I'm thinking of pulling it out and moving the HDD to the ODD bay up top. Then the bottom fan would have no obstruction behind it.
> 
> Also while I'm at this topic, what do you guys use for fan control? SpeedFan unfortunately doesn't support the IO chip on my B450 Tomahawk, I have tried (and paid) for Argus few years ago, but not sure I want to do it again just to have a software fan control. The MSI apps sucks and takes huge system resources...


Second and third best is reative to what is available and price. For me good case fans are mandatory, and exhaust case fans are rarely needed. I haven't used exhaust fan in years now. End result is we can pay a little more to have good intake fans and still spend less because we need fewer fans.
Here I can get 2-packs of PH-F140MP for £16.26 which are very good fans at a very low price. Another fan I have not tried so hesitate to suggest is Arctic P14 PWM PST, P14 which can often be found here for about £6.95 each. 

I almost always use motherboard software for fan control. I'm using MSI in one of my builds and it's fine. Only complaint is once I got fan curve figured out I had put it in bios or I had to re-load setting every startup. I didn't have it running once curve is set, so didn't notice resource useage. Maybe not as good as Speedfan but does a decent job.


----------



## doyll

XtrathiccFan said:


> Thermalright C-12 is pretty good, slightly better performance and slightly louder than Noctua A12x25 while being half of the price of A12x25.
> 
> Though C-12 seems to be only available in China and Taiwan.


I've only use C12 sample and liked it. Honestly I can't think of any Thermalright fan that isn't decent, but I haven't tried all their new ones yet.


----------



## blue.dot

I can only see the Artic one available here. What about Noctua NF-P14s redux line? My main concern is noise. Not sure about other brands but Noctua should be at the top? And the redux line is not that expensive (here the 1200 rpm costs about half of Silent Wings 3). I image two of these at around 1000rpm would pull enough air in the case, while being near silent?


----------



## smilinjohn

blue.dot said:


> I can only see the Artic one available here. What about Noctua NF-P14s redux line? My main concern is noise. Not sure about other brands but Noctua should be at the top? And the redux line is not that expensive (here the 1200 rpm costs about half of Silent Wings 3). I image two of these at around 1000rpm would pull enough air in the case, while being near silent?



My Noctua fans are loud to me if the room is quiet. I had hoped they were quieter than other fans I've had, but nope.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> Maybe not as good as Speedfan but does a decent job.


I've red lately that speed fan doesn't work well in Windows 10. I need it for my GPU fans connected to sys_fan 1.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## XtrathiccFan

blue.dot said:


> I can only see the Artic one available here. What about Noctua NF-P14s redux line? My main concern is noise. Not sure about other brands but Noctua should be at the top? And the redux line is not that expensive (here the 1200 rpm costs about half of Silent Wings 3). I image two of these at around 1000rpm would pull enough air in the case, while being near silent?


I haven't used a P14 redux, but i have a P12 redux which is pretty quiet at 1300 rpm. However, once it passes 1300 rpm, the noise increases considerably.


----------



## blue.dot

smilinjohn said:


> My Noctua fans are loud to me if the room is quiet. I had hoped they were quieter than other fans I've had, but nope.


What model and at what RPMs? How would you describe the noise? Or high pitched? Where do you use them?



XtrathiccFan said:


> I haven't used a P14 redux, but i have a P12 redux which is pretty quiet at 1300 rpm. However, once it passes 1300 rpm, the noise increases considerably.


Thanks. How would you describe the noise and where do you have the fans installed?

So many options to choose from, I really dont have a clue... Is it even worth getting 140mm over 120mm?


----------



## doyll

blue.dot said:


> I can only see the Artic one available here. What about Noctua NF-P14s redux line? My main concern is noise. Not sure about other brands but Noctua should be at the top? And the redux line is not that expensive (here the 1200 rpm costs about half of Silent Wings 3). I image two of these at around 1000rpm would pull enough air in the case, while being near silent?


Noctua are okay, but not as good as others and usually cost more. Could you post links to online shops you can buy from so we can see what is avaliable and prices?


----------



## blue.dot

I mainly look at https://www.alza.sk and https://tichepc.sk since these two have the highest number of manufacturers available, generally.
What I'm looking for are two intake fans, case is Fractal Design Focus G. So the front has option for 2x120 or 2x140, has a mesh and dust filter. I do not want to spend more than 30€ total.


----------



## doyll

blue.dot said:


> I mainly look at https://www.alza.sk and https://tichepc.sk since these two have the highest number of manufacturers available, generally.
> What I'm looking for are two intake fans, case is Fractal Design Focus G. So the front has option for 2x120 or 2x140, has a mesh and dust filter. I do not want to spend more than 30€ total.


 Arctic P14 PWM is 1st in below search of your sight:
https://www.alza.sk/search.htm?exps=ARCTIC P14 PWM 140mm
Phanteks PH-F140MP in link below:
https://www.tichepc.sk/Vyhladavanie?arg0=ph-f140mp
PH-F140MP are better fans but also cost much more than Arctic P14 PWM 200-1700rpm. I woud use 2x 140mm front intakes, remove all PCIe back slto covers to increase rear vent area around GPU (vent grills allow 15-30% as much airflow as open area allows). Might add bottom intake fan is temps are not cool enough with just front intakes, but them case feet need to be taller so there is more room for air to flow under case to the bottom intakes (PSU and 120mm case fan). With this increaed vent area we get much better front to back airflow thus lower air temp into both CPU and GPU which means lower temps and less noise. Block any openings in front fan mounting panel not covered by front intake fans so the air they are pushing into case does not leak back up front. We want all front intake air to move back toward rear venting and out of case .. maybe a little out rear most top vent You don't need any exhaust fans. 

5th post this thread is basic guide to how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow. I suggest you read and use that guide to setup your case airflow. If you need help, just ask. :thumb:


----------



## Shenhua

blue.dot said:


> I mainly look at https://www.alza.sk and https://tichepc.sk since these two have the highest number of manufacturers available, generally.
> 
> What I'm looking for are two intake fans, case is Fractal Design Focus G. So the front has option for 2x120 or 2x140, has a mesh and dust filter. I do not want to spend more than 30€ total.


Optimizing for silence is not a cheap task. It doesn't have to be expensive, but it is not cheap.

Depending on the hardware you can do it with around 150-250 bucks (case/fans/cooler/s), unless you have some unusual setup. That being said there's always some kind of compromise, something to modify or some problem to solve.

You can go cheaper than that but either you comprise the results or you have low power parts.


----------



## smilinjohn

blue.dot said:


> What model and at what RPMs? How would you describe the noise? Or high pitched? Where do you use them?



I have 1 Noctua NF-F12 Heavy Duty Cooling Fan in the top of the case for exhaust, it's the loudest running 372RPM. This is my only 4 pin fan in the case.


Then I have 2 Noctua NF-P14s High-Performance Cooling Fan in the front of the case pushing air into the rad these run 515RPM.


And lastly 1 Noctua NF-P12 High Performance Cooling Fan in the back of the case pushing air out of the back of the case running 373RPM. 


All temps and RMPs are at idle I really haven't pushed this build with anything, haven't had the time. 


My computer is 4' away AND I'm real sensitive to sounds. I wouldn't call the noise high pitched more like the steady hum you get from fans. If I have something playing on the TV I can barely hear the fans.


----------



## StAndrew

I got a used NZXT H630 toaster oven (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DKX0VLC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). I cut three 140mm holes in the top panel and two in the front panel. I used an old 250mm fan from a Thermaltake case and cut a 250mm hole in the side panel.

Initial radiator setup was a front 280mm and bottom 240mm radiator both running intake with a top 360mm and rear 120mm radiator running in exhaust. The 250mm fan was intake to feed cool air to the top radiators but i decided to try a new setup:

I'm now running all radiators as intake and the 250mm fan as a large exhaust (see attached pic). To monitor temps, I have a sensor in the middle of the case, not touching anything, and a sensor at the top intake vent to measure ambient / intake temps (not the best). A temp prob is installed on the water pump. Inside case temps stay within 2-3* of intake temp and water temp (cooling 8700k @5.0 and 1080ti) stay within 5* of intake air temps. Been the most efficient cooling loop I've built in 10+ years.


----------



## XtrathiccFan

blue.dot said:


> Thanks. How would you describe the noise and where do you have the fans installed?


I mounted P12 redux at the rear as exhaust. The noise sounds like smooth air passing through the fan under 1300 rpm. Above 1300 rpm, it makes the same noise profile but considerably louder.


----------



## doyll

StAndrew said:


> I got a used NZXT H630 toaster oven (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DKX0VLC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). I cut three 140mm holes in the top panel and two in the front panel. I used an old 250mm fan from a Thermaltake case and cut a 250mm hole in the side panel.
> 
> Initial radiator setup was a front 280mm and bottom 240mm radiator both running intake with a top 360mm and rear 120mm radiator running in exhaust. The 250mm fan was intake to feed cool air to the top radiators but i decided to try a new setup:
> 
> I'm now running all radiators as intake and the 250mm fan as a large exhaust (see attached pic). To monitor temps, I have a sensor in the middle of the case, not touching anything, and a sensor at the top intake vent to measure ambient / intake temps (not the best). A temp prob is installed on the water pump. Inside case temps stay within 2-3* of intake temp and water temp (cooling 8700k @5.0 and 1080ti) stay within 5* of intake air temps. Been the most efficient cooling loop I've built in 10+ years.


Interesting build and from your temps it's working quite well. :thumb:

I did a little calculating of intake vs exhaust area and found you have 678.24 + 307.72 = 795.96sq cm of intake area vs 490.62sq cm of exhaut area. Exhaust area is 305.34sq cm smaller than intake area. That is less than 2/3rds as much exhaust area as intake area .. meaning you are limiting your radiator airflow ability. You might get even better temps with lower fan speed if you setup back 12cm or bottom 24cm rad as exhaust so your exhaust area is better balanced exhasut area with intake area.


----------



## StAndrew

doyll said:


> Interesting build and from your temps it's working quite well. :thumb:
> 
> I did a little calculating of intake vs exhaust area and found you have 678.24 + 307.72 = 795.96sq cm of intake area vs 490.62sq cm of exhaut area. Exhaust area is 305.34sq cm smaller than intake area. That is less than 2/3rds as much exhaust area as intake area .. meaning you are limiting your radiator airflow ability. You might get even better temps with lower fan speed if you setup back 12cm or bottom 24cm rad as exhaust so your exhaust area is better balanced exhasut area with intake area.


Fortunately its not quite as bad as it looks. The fans are pulling through a radiator and dust filter while the 250mm fan has less obstruction. I do have all the PCI slots open and there is quite a bit of air pressure coming out when I have all the intake fans at max but I generally run them around 800rpm's which seems to be just enough to keep positive pressure.


----------



## blue.dot

Thinking it over, my system is decently silent already. The only thing that makes noise, even at idle, is my harddrive, and that will require other solutions. So I decided to try those Arctic P14s, should get them today, will report back how they are noise wise.


----------



## doyll

Nidonas said:


> Hello there,
> Recently i got my brother's old pc which consists of:
> 
> Cooler Master haf 922. It comes with the stock fans. 1 front 200mm intake, 1 top 200mm exhaust, 1 rear 120mm exhaust. This is the version with the transparent window, so no fans can be installed at the side panel.
> Asus p8z77-v
> Intel 3570k. It comes with the stock cooler. It used to have a Swiftech h220x and was overclocked at 4.6Ghz 1.33v. The chip did not have thermal issues. It just needed a lot of voltage for stability.
> 4 x 4GB Corsair vengeance 1600CL9. According to corsair they are 52.5mm tall.
> Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 gaming.
> 
> 
> First, I want to install a new aircooler. My intention is to clock back at 4.5-4.6 Ghz. I was looking for budget options. My initial thought is Thermalright True Spirit 140 Power at 50€.
> 
> About height: Cooler Master says the case clearance is 160mm but this is with a 200mm installed at the side panel. I measured at least 180mm, as exprected since no fan can be installed there.
> About length: According to my measurements TS140P will only cover the mobo's first PCIe slot, which is not being used. The GPU and its x16 slot are ok.
> About width: I measured the cpu center to ram distance at about 52-54mm. TS140P width from cpu center to ram is 80mm - (53/2) = 53.5mm.
> That's about the same distance and the tall ram height does not help things at all. In case it doesn't fit,i think i 've read that the fan can be installed at the back of the radiator as pull. If i recall correctly, there is enough room for it to fit that way.
> 
> Should the above sound problematic, i will probably go for a Scythe Mugen Rev. B at 45€ or a Fuma 2 at 50€, since they do not interfere with ram at all. No retailer sells the Macho Rev. C here yet.
> 
> Second, i want to improve the case airflow. As a given though that the cpu cooler is a tower.
> I have ordered a cheap thermometer from aliexpress to monitor the temps, but it will arrive after a month(hopefully).
> Since the system is not originally mine i will not perform irreversible modifications, like cutting and drilling the case.
> 
> As mentioned earlier the installed fans are 1 front 200mm intake, 1 top 200mm exhaust, 1 rear 120mm exhaust. I think the 200mm are Megaflow. They provide poor pressure at 0.595 mmH2O at 800 rpm. The 120mm i know it's just 1200 rpm.
> At the 3.5" bay i have installed only 1 hdd and an ssd at the bottom. I have removed all other hdd enclosures. The 5.25" bay is empty.
> Again, i consider budget options like Arctic p14. I can buy the pwm 5-pack at 30€ and the non-pwm pack at 25€
> 
> Having read the thread i'm thinking of :
> 
> installing a 140mm fan as an intake at the 5.25" bay. Ghetto style with zip ties. Should i also put a tunnel to better aim at the cpu?
> closing the front vents which are not covered by the intake fans.
> opening the PCIe case slots to help the gpu.
> maybe adding a bottom 140mm intake fan and lifting the case up a bit. If not then covering the bottom vents, so air cannot escape.
> 
> About the installed fans:
> 
> It seems that the top 200mm exhaust is unnecessary and should just go away. I think i can leave the vents as they are.
> Now what about the other two?
> I can replace the front 200mm with either a 120mm or a 140mm. Cooler Master's specs are wrong that 2x120mm can be installed at the front. Should i bother at all?
> About the 120mm rear fan. The maximum supported fan size is 120mm. I can fit a 140mm tightly with zip ties. I'm afraid that will lead to vibrations though. I will probably leave this as is. Furthermore if i am forced to install the TS140P fan as pull, won't the 120mm fan become somewhat redundant?
> 
> Whew, that was a long post. Any suggestions are welcome.


What are your CPU and GPU temps now? Monitoring case airflow temp into flat stock CPU cooler will give you much warmer air than with a tower cooler because downflow cooler pushed air down hitting mobo, turning out hitting GpU, RAM and turning up along side of cooler and fan where it's fan draws it's own heated exhaust back in. I'm guessing with stock flat cooler CPU might be a little warm.  

Asus p8z77-v has plenty of room toward PCIe sockets but is a little close to RAM (only 50mm) so TRUE Spirit 140 Power might need fan mounted on back of cooler pulling air instead of on front pushing .. it's not a problem. I'm guessing 120mm rear exhaust fan is redundant. 

200mm fans are notoriously bad performers because they have very low pressure ratings. But assuming system is not running hot they may be okay. As you said, cases doesn't really accept any other fans easily. 

Probably the best way forward is get a good CPU cooler (TRUE Spirit 140 Power is arguably the best and lowest priced), then check airflow temps into CPU and GPU. Then we can decide what/how to improve case airflow if needed.


----------



## Melcar

doyll said:


> While some of what you say I agree with, some I don't understand your post. How can a fan flow less air and cool slightly better? And if a fan has a smoother sound profile isn't it less noticeable / sound quieter to listener?



Wrote it wrong. I meant the A14/15 cools slightly better. Just a bit. The TYs have a better sound profile. So all in all (and considering price), the TYs are a better fan.


----------



## doyll

Melcar said:


> Wrote it wrong. I meant the A14/15 cools slightly better. Just a bit. The TYs have a better sound profile. So all in all (and considering price), the TYs are a better fan.


Now it makes sense. :thumb:
When I tested both at same dB TYs had better sound and not as loud while flowing slightly more air through a radiator as resistance/ airflow straightener.


----------



## Nidonas

doyll said:


> What are your CPU and GPU temps now? Monitoring case airflow temp into flat stock CPU cooler will give you much warmer air than with a tower cooler because downflow cooler pushed air down hitting mobo, turning out hitting GpU, RAM and turning up along side of cooler and fan where it's fan draws it's own heated exhaust back in. I'm guessing with stock flat cooler CPU might be a little warm.
> 
> Asus p8z77-v has plenty of room toward PCIe sockets but is a little close to RAM (only 50mm) so TRUE Spirit 140 Power might need fan mounted on back of cooler pulling air instead of on front pushing .. it's not a problem. I'm guessing 120mm rear exhaust fan is redundant.
> 
> 200mm fans are notoriously bad performers because they have very low pressure ratings. But assuming system is not running hot they may be okay. As you said, cases doesn't really accept any other fans easily.
> 
> Probably the best way forward is get a good CPU cooler (TRUE Spirit 140 Power is arguably the best and lowest priced), then check airflow temps into CPU and GPU. Then we can decide what/how to improve case airflow if needed.


I ran some tests. Cpu idles at 40℃, gpu at 30℃ and both run at stock.

Running prime95 small FFT, the cpu hits 90℃ within two minutes and i close it.
Finally running FurMark for 15 minutes, the gpu hits 73℃(with gpu fans at 75%) while the cpu hits 68℃.

Gpu temps are fine, but ouch at that cpu temp. Maybe the stock cooler was not installed correctly.
Anyway, since i ordered a True Spirit 140 Power, i am not going to bother with it.


----------



## doyll

Nidonas said:


> I ran some tests. Cpu idles at 40℃, gpu at 30℃ and both run at stock.
> 
> Running prime95 small FFT, the cpu hits 90℃ within two minutes and i close it.
> Finally running FurMark for 15 minutes, the gpu hits 73℃(with gpu fans at 75%) while the cpu hits 68℃.
> 
> Gpu temps are fine, but ouch at that cpu temp. Maybe the stock cooler was not installed correctly.
> Anyway, since i ordered a True Spirit 140 Power, i am not going to bother with it.


Those temps are a good sign. Educated guess is TRUE once Spirit 140 Power is installed CPU temps will be fine too.


----------



## Nidonas

True Spirit came today and i installed it. This thing is massive!
It narrowly fits as seen from the picture and barely touches the ram, so i left it as is.

When i turned on the pc i got a cpu fan error. I looked at the bios and the culprit was cpu fan speed low limit. I set it to ignore and booted just fine.
Google reveals that a lot of people get the same error, thanks to Asus and its cpu Q-fan default settings.


The cpu now idles at 30℃ instead of 40.
I ran prime small fft for 15 minutes. Max temperature was 68℃, while cpu maximum fan speed was 680rpm. Pretty impressive since it can go up to 1300rpm.
Over the weekend i'm going to manually adjust the fan and make it a bit more aggressive.


----------



## Shenhua

Nidonas said:


> The cpu now idles at 30℃ instead of 40.
> 
> I ran prime small fft for 15 minutes. Max temperature was 68℃, while cpu maximum fan speed was 680rpm. Pretty impressive since it can go up to 1300rpm.
> 
> Over the weekend i'm going to manually adjust the fan and make it a bit more aggressive.


That's some serious sh1!. Now that we have good enough cases to make justice, to such good coolers, we starting to have a heavily bottleneck on the heat transference...... sad......


----------



## doyll

Nidonas said:


> True Spirit came today and i installed it. This thing is massive!
> It narrowly fits as seen from the picture and barely touches the ram, so i left it as is.
> 
> When i turned on the pc i got a cpu fan error. I looked at the bios and the culprit was cpu fan speed low limit. I set it to ignore and booted just fine.
> Google reveals that a lot of people get the same error, thanks to Asus and its cpu Q-fan default settings.
> 
> The cpu now idles at 30℃ instead of 40.
> I ran prime small fft for 15 minutes. Max temperature was 68℃, while cpu maximum fan speed was 680rpm. Pretty impressive since it can go up to 1300rpm.
> Over the weekend i'm going to manually adjust the fan and make it a bit more aggressive.


Sounds like a win/win.
I suggest setting fan curve to idle about 600rpm. This will lower idle temp some while still being silent. Sent next temp to speed at about 40c @ 800rpm, 50c @ 900rpm, 60c @ 1000rpm an then full speed @ 70c. Doesn't need to be exact, just approx. temp to speed curve to keep temps low without noise unless working hard. Even at 1100rpm fan is almost silent. Oh! Set case fans' curves to similar so they supply the cool air coolers need.


----------



## blue.dot

So I finally got everything like I wanted. Those two Arctic P14s in front, at 50% PWM, are really nice and silent, while pushing enough air. The only thing that is making the most noise is the harddrive... 

But I'm not quite happy with my Scythe Kotetsu performance. Did the AIDA64 stability test, using the first tree options, and the CPU temp was averaging 78°C, and once even hit 85°C. The heat-pipes and the cooler were barely warm, this was after 20 minutes of the CPU sitting just below 80°C. Same for the small heatspreader on top. The air was barely warm too. On my previous system, the air that was coming from exhaust fan was notably hot, but the CPU was never above 70°C. Did I mess up somewhere?


----------



## doyll

blue.dot said:


> So I finally got everything like I wanted. Those two Arctic P14s in front, at 50% PWM, are really nice and silent, while pushing enough air. The only thing that is making the most noise is the harddrive...
> 
> But I'm not quite happy with my Scythe Kotetsu performance. Did the AIDA64 stability test, using the first tree options, and the CPU temp was averaging 78°C, and once even hit 85°C. The heat-pipes and the cooler were barely warm, this was after 20 minutes of the CPU sitting just below 80°C. Same for the small heatspreader on top. The air was barely warm too. On my previous system, the air that was coming from exhaust fan was notably hot, but the CPU was never above 70°C. Did I mess up somewhere?


 78c running AIDA64 so CPU is at 100% load is good. What CPU do you have? I think most Intels' throttle point / max temp is about 100c, but AMD are lower with some being about 65c.
Heatpipes being 'barely warm' is how they work. They don't get hot. The heatpipe tubing is just barely warm becuase on the inside is the wick moving liquid back to heat source where it vaporizes and moves toward ends of heatpipe cooling and condensing into the wick which move liquid back to heat source. Link below is to details of how heatpipes work:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/23801390-post83.html
What was Kotetsu fan speed when CPU was at 78c?

Kotetsu is a good cooler with to me lower lower level cooling. With 4x 6mm heatpipes it's cooling ability is much lower than the best coolers which have 6-8x 6mm or 6x 8mm heatpipes. 6mm heatpipe TDP rating is about 40TDP, but that is only part of heat transfer equasion with base to heatpipe, heatpipe to fins, fins to air, air temp, etc. all affecting heat transfer .. plus CPU chip to IHS and IHS to cooler base also effecting it.


----------



## blue.dot

Its stock R5 3600. 
Ah, okay, I see with the heatpipes, thanks. However I still at least expected hot/warm air from exhaust. Im still not sure


----------



## doyll

*doyll*



blue.dot said:


> Its stock R5 3600.
> Ah, okay, I see with the heatpipes, thanks. However I still at least expected hot/warm air from exhaust. Im still not sure


Heatpipes are basically foolproof. Maybe you got a poor TIM print so heat isn't transferring from CPU to cooler base. If fan speed is low that will cause temps to be higher, which is why I suggest setting fan curve so speed is low enough to be inaudible until temp heat is high enough to need them to spin faster and become audible.


----------



## D-EJ915

Ryzen 3000 chips don't have very good chip to cooler heat transfer so don't expect amazing temps, they're kind of like a slightly different version of the 7 and 8 series intel chips with the horrid thermal paste under the IHS. I don't imagine getting a different cooler will really make a huge impact to be honest.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> Heatpipes are basically foolproof. Maybe you got a poor TIM print so heat isn't transferring from CPU to cooler base. If fan speed is low that will cause temps to be higher, which is why I suggest setting fan curve so speed is low enough to be inaudible until temp heat is high enough to need them to spin faster and become audible.


Or maybe not flat base. Im starting to see more and more ppl having bad temps because of very slightly convex bases.

There's this guy in elchapuzasinformatico (Spanish forum), that tested the mugen 5 rev.b, arctic 34 and a cm 212 rgb on the same setup and same conditions. The cm gives him similar temps to the mugen 5, and the Arctic is better. He said that the mugen doesn't make contact well, and he is not a tech savvy guy.

Flat base with die on the side and with convex coldplate it's start to be really punishing.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Shenhua

blue.dot said:


> Its stock R5 3600.
> 
> Ah, okay, I see with the heatpipes, thanks. However I still at least expected hot/warm air from exhaust. Im still not sure


You don't see, because the CPU doesn't generate much heat anyway, on top of what doyll said, despite the temps you're seeing. It's a high thermal density CPU, and even of you have perfect contact on the IHS, it's still have poor heat transference because of that.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## XtrathiccFan

Thermalright just release Ty-147 with RGB and reversed TL-C12

As usual, those are only sold in China.


----------



## Gilles3000

Damn a reversed fan. I wonder how if it would be any good when sandwiched with a regular TL-C12, counter-rotating fans should in theory work well in tandem.


----------



## doyll

XtrathiccFan said:


> Thermalright just release Ty-147 with RGB and reversed TL-C12
> 
> As usual, those are only sold in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TL-C12R-S
> TL-C12L


 Interesting. I just looked on Thermalright China website and don't find TL-C12R-S. Even did a search of their website and still nothing. Same for TL-C14L. Not saying they are not making them, just that their website does not show them.



Gilles3000 said:


> Damn a reversed fan. I wonder how if it would be any good when sandwiched with a regular TL-C12, counter-rotating fans should in theory work well in tandem.


A pair of one left and one right should work very well to increase pressure rating.:thumb:


----------



## Nidonas

So i did some quick tests with the fans today.

The case is Cooler Master haf 922 with the stock fans. 1 front 200mm intake, 1 top 200mm exhaust, 1 rear 120mm exhaust. The cpu cooler is True Spirit 140 Power.
I overclocked 3570k at 4.3Ghz and 1.3v to produce heat.

Running prime small fft for 15 minutes:

cpu fan(%)-------system fans(%)-------cpu temperature(℃)
50---------------- 50----------------------87
100---------------50----------------------83
50----------------100---------------------87
100---------------100---------------------82

Then i ran intel burn test at standard stress level for 10 repetitions and got:

All fans(%)---------cpu temperature(℃)
50%----------------86
60%----------------86
70%----------------84
80%----------------83
90%----------------83
100%---------------83

It seems that the cpu cooler at high rpms is not supplied with enough air.

I wiil probably order some arctic p12/14 fans.
What i'm considering as shown in the picture is:

blue color
1x 140mm bottom intake
2x 140mm front intakes (the upper ghetto installed)

green color
close the vents

red color
1x 120mm rear exhaust
1x 120mm top exhaust

and open the pci-e slots.

Mostly i am not so sure what to do with the exhaust fans. Maybe skip the top one?


----------



## StAndrew

Nidonas said:


> So i did some quick tests with the fans today.
> 
> The case is Cooler Master haf 922 with the stock fans. 1 front 200mm intake, 1 top 200mm exhaust, 1 rear 120mm exhaust. The cpu cooler is True Spirit 140 Power.
> I overclocked 3570k at 4.3Ghz and 1.3v to produce heat.
> 
> Running prime small fft for 15 minutes:
> 
> cpu fan(%)-------system fans(%)-------cpu temperature(℃)
> 50---------------- 50----------------------87
> 100---------------50----------------------83
> 50----------------100---------------------87
> 100---------------100---------------------82
> 
> Then i ran intel burn test at standard stress level for 10 repetitions and got:
> 
> All fans(%)---------cpu temperature(℃)
> 50%----------------86
> 60%----------------86
> 70%----------------84
> 80%----------------83
> 90%----------------83
> 100%---------------83
> 
> It seems that the cpu cooler at high rpms is not supplied with enough air.
> 
> I wiil probably order some arctic p12/14 fans.
> What i'm considering as shown in the picture is:
> 
> blue color
> 1x 140mm bottom intake
> 2x 140mm front intakes (the upper ghetto installed)
> 
> green color
> close the vents
> 
> red color
> 1x 120mm rear exhaust
> 1x 120mm top exhaust
> 
> and open the pci-e slots.
> 
> Mostly i am not so sure what to do with the exhaust fans. Maybe skip the top one?


Try this; orient your cooler to blow up, not back, and turn your rear 120/140 fan around to run as an intake (you may want a dust filter on it). See if your temps drop anymore.

And remove those ridiculous HD bays if you haven't already.


----------



## doyll

Nidonas said:


> So i did some quick tests with the fans today.
> 
> The case is Cooler Master haf 922 with the stock fans. 1 front 200mm intake, 1 top 200mm exhaust, 1 rear 120mm exhaust. The cpu cooler is True Spirit 140 Power.
> I overclocked 3570k at 4.3Ghz and 1.3v to produce heat.
> 
> Running prime small fft for 15 minutes:
> 
> cpu fan(%)-------system fans(%)-------cpu temperature(℃)
> 50---------------- 50----------------------87
> 100---------------50----------------------83
> 50----------------100---------------------87
> 100---------------100---------------------82
> 
> Then i ran intel burn test at standard stress level for 10 repetitions and got:
> 
> All fans(%)---------cpu temperature(℃)
> 50%----------------86
> 60%----------------86
> 70%----------------84
> 80%----------------83
> 90%----------------83
> 100%---------------83
> 
> It seems that the cpu cooler at high rpms is not supplied with enough air.
> 
> I wiil probably order some arctic p12/14 fans.
> What i'm considering as shown in the picture is:
> 
> blue color
> 1x 140mm bottom intake
> 2x 140mm front intakes (the upper ghetto installed)
> 
> green color
> close the vents
> 
> red color
> 1x 120mm rear exhaust
> 1x 120mm top exhaust
> 
> and open the pci-e slots.
> 
> Mostly i am not so sure what to do with the exhaust fans. Maybe skip the top one?


 I would only use your 2nd speed curve so they are 100% at 75c. 

Would help if we know what air temp into cooler is when system is at 100% load. 2nd & 5th posts this thread show what I use.

You could also remove filters, grills, etc. and block all openings in intake fan mounting panels and see if temps go down. This will give you an idea about what better pressure rated / higher airflow fans will do.

I don't like using rear as intake. I much prefer airflow from front to back with maybe a bottom intake to GPU. Remove all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU to improve front to back airflow in this area and thus lower temps.


----------



## Shenhua

Nidonas said:


> So i did some quick tests with the fans today.
> 
> 
> 
> The case is Cooler Master haf 922 with the stock fans. 1 front 200mm intake, 1 top 200mm exhaust, 1 rear 120mm exhaust. The cpu cooler is True Spirit 140 Power.
> 
> I overclocked 3570k at 4.3Ghz and 1.3v to produce heat.
> 
> 
> 
> Running prime small fft for 15 minutes:
> 
> 
> 
> cpu fan(%)-------system fans(%)-------cpu temperature(℃)
> 
> 50---------------- 50----------------------87
> 
> 100---------------50----------------------83
> 
> 50----------------100---------------------87
> 
> 100---------------100---------------------82
> 
> 
> 
> Then i ran intel burn test at standard stress level for 10 repetitions and got:
> 
> 
> 
> All fans(%)---------cpu temperature(℃)
> 
> 50%----------------86
> 
> 60%----------------86
> 
> 70%----------------84
> 
> 80%----------------83
> 
> 90%----------------83
> 
> 100%---------------83
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that the cpu cooler at high rpms is not supplied with enough air.
> 
> 
> 
> I wiil probably order some arctic p12/14 fans.
> 
> What i'm considering as shown in the picture is:
> 
> 
> 
> blue color
> 
> 1x 140mm bottom intake
> 
> 2x 140mm front intakes (the upper ghetto installed)
> 
> 
> 
> green color
> 
> close the vents
> 
> 
> 
> red color
> 
> 1x 120mm rear exhaust
> 
> 1x 120mm top exhaust
> 
> 
> 
> and open the pci-e slots.
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly i am not so sure what to do with the exhaust fans. Maybe skip the top one?


I draw a different conclusion from your data, and I thank you for proving what i already knew (without confirming it). The radiator is dependent on its own fan, but at a given point that dependency switches on the case fans, if in a case, and as you scale up, moves again on how restrictive the case. 

There might be a second point of diminishing returns before the fans colide with the case limitations. That would be that the fans from certain RPM, they don't "reach" enough air to move (if someone has a better explanation of what I'm trying to say, pls go ahead). I mean that the pulling force of the fan doesn't scale up parallel with the RPM curve.

Idk how to test and find out the diminishing returns for every type of case, but that's why i always said that test benching coolers is completely and utterly wrong and irrelevant. For many coolers it probably doesn't even represent a reflection of the cooler's performance.

Again. Thanks for the data.


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> I draw a different conclusion from your data, and I thank you for proving what i already knew (without confirming it). The radiator is dependent on its own fan, but at a given point that dependency switches on the case fans, if in a case, and as you scale up, moves again on how restrictive the case.
> 
> There might be a second point of diminishing returns before the fans colide with the case limitations. That would be that the fans from certain RPM, they don't "reach" enough air to move (if someone has a better explanation of what I'm trying to say, pls go ahead). I mean that the pulling force of the fan doesn't scale up parallel with the RPM curve.
> 
> Idk how to test and find out the diminishing returns for every type of case, but that's why i always said that test benching coolers is completely and utterly wrong and irrelevant. For many coolers it probably doesn't even represent a reflection of the cooler's performance.
> 
> Again. Thanks for the data.


 You are way out there with your suppositions .


Your thoughts about bench testing are so far out it's comical. Bench testing coolers is only way to eliminate variables so we only see how cooler is performing. In other words any cooler testing done in a case built system is utterly worthless to anyone without identical build with identical performance and identical fan curves .. something only the owner of system has, not something anyone else has. 

Please post your toughts elsewher!


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> You are way out there with your suppositions .
> 
> 
> Your thoughts about bench testing are so far out it's comical. Bench testing coolers is only way to eliminate variables so we only see how cooler is performing. In other words any cooler testing done in a case built system is utterly worthless to anyone without identical build with identical performance and identical fan curves .. something only the owner of system has, not something anyone else has.
> 
> Please post your toughts elsewher!


You're wrong even with the proof in front of you.

Test benching while it might eliminate the external variables, it doesn't represent a real case scenario. 
You can have cooler 1, with X capacity heatsink and a slow fan, and cooler 2 with 0.9X capacity heatsink with a fast fan.

Cooler 2 will be better on the test bench, but cooler 1, might be equal or better in a well set up case.

I'm sorry. You can say whatever you want, but I'm seeing all the time results and leads from my testing and others that drives me and reinforce the same conclusion.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> You're wrong even with the proof in front of you.
> 
> Test benching while it might eliminate the external variables, it doesn't represent a real case scenario.
> You can have cooler 1, with X capacity heatsink and a slow fan, and cooler 2 with 0.9X capacity heatsink with a fast fan.
> 
> Cooler 2 will be better on the test bench, but cooler 1, might be equal or better in a well set up case.
> 
> I'm sorry. You can say whatever you want, but I'm seeing all the time results and leads from my testing and others that drives me and reinforce the same conclusion.
> 
> Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


 Your post is only more proof you lack the knowledge needed to perform accurate testing.

How can you determine a cooler's performance with the many variables in a case built system not being accounted for? 

Obviously cooler fan speeds / noise levels are variables measured when bench testing and used for comparing coolers at same fan speed or same noise elvel. Same as monitoring air temp into cooler for delta temp performance.

No, every coolers' performance when tested on a bench is based on air temp, same fan speed / noise level, but because bench testing eliminates many of the varialbes not taken into account (like air temp into cooler, fan noise level, etc.) that in almost all case built testing are not taken into account and are therefore inaccurate. 

Every cooler I've tested on bench test station performs the same in a case built system. Testing bench simply eliminates variables like not being able to acutally monitor fan noise in case build because of other fan noise in such close proximity they cannot be isolated from cooler fan's noise.


Either you are simply trooling or you don't understand basics of cooler testing.
Again, please take your posting elsewhere so it doesn't clutter up this thread.


----------



## Nidonas

StAndrew said:


> Try this; orient your cooler to blow up, not back, and turn your rear 120/140 fan around to run as an intake (you may want a dust filter on it). See if your temps drop anymore.
> 
> And remove those ridiculous HD bays if you haven't already.


Won't doing that move the gpu air towards the cpu?
I can see how it can cause a drop for low gpu load, but for heavy gpu load won't it cause a rise in temps?
The system is not mine, so i won't remove the hdd case. However I have removed all unused hdd bays.



doyll said:


> I would only use your 2nd speed curve so they are 100% at 75c.
> 
> Would help if we know what air temp into cooler is when system is at 100% load. 2nd & 5th posts this thread show what I use.
> 
> You could also remove filters, grills, etc. and block all openings in intake fan mounting panels and see if temps go down. This will give you an idea about what better pressure rated / higher airflow fans will do.
> 
> I don't like using rear as intake. I much prefer airflow from front to back with maybe a bottom intake to GPU. Remove all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU to improve front to back airflow in this area and thus lower temps.


What 2nd speed curve? I don't understand what you mean here.

I have read the thread and have ordered a thermometer. It will probably arrive next month.
Do you suggest i delay replacing the fans until i can have concrete data with the thermometer?


----------



## StAndrew

Nidonas said:


> Won't doing that move the gpu air towards the cpu?
> I can see how it can cause a drop for low gpu load, but for heavy gpu load won't it cause a rise in temps?
> The system is not mine, so i won't remove the hdd case. However I have removed all unused hdd bays.
> 
> 
> What 2nd speed curve? I don't understand what you mean here.
> 
> I have read the thread and have ordered a thermometer. It will probably arrive next month.
> Do you suggest i delay replacing the fans until i can have concrete data with the thermometer?


I don't know about the GPU but I think using the back fan as an intake it should minimize the affect? The rule of thumb I've seen, based off testing with the back fan as an exhaust, is mount the CPU heatsync vertical for open GPU's and horizontal for blower/watercooled GPU's. 

Just an idea if you have the time to try out.


----------



## doyll

Nidonas said:


> Won't doing that move the gpu air towards the cpu?
> I can see how it can cause a drop for low gpu load, but for heavy gpu load won't it cause a rise in temps?
> The system is not mine, so i won't remove the hdd case. However I have removed all unused hdd bays.
> 
> 
> What 2nd speed curve? I don't understand what you mean here.
> 
> I have read the thread and have ordered a thermometer. It will probably arrive next month.
> Do you suggest i delay replacing the fans until i can have concrete data with the thermometer?


Yes, turning cooler to flow air up means it will be drawing from back of GPU and pulling air in off of GPU side away from motherboard so yes, warmer air from GPU into cooler. The more turns air has to make the more turbulence there is and the more warmer air mixes into cool airflow warming it up.
Your forth fan curve is basically what I was saying, but have fan speed curve from 30-40c @ 600rpm to 40-50c @ 800rpm, to 50-60c @ 1100rpm, 60-70c @ 1200rpm an 70 +c @ full speed. 
Monitoring air temp into cooler and comparing that temp to room air entering case tells us how much higher air temp into component is so we can work on case airflow and get air temp into cooler 5c or less above room temp.


----------



## Nidonas

StAndrew said:


> I don't know about the GPU but I think using the back fan as an intake it should minimize the affect? The rule of thumb I've seen, based off testing with the back fan as an exhaust, is mount the CPU heatsync vertical for open GPU's and horizontal for blower/watercooled GPU's.
> 
> Just an idea if you have the time to try out.


I just realized that i cannot install the cooler vertically because the rams are very tall.


----------



## Owterspace

Temps seem kinda high for that speed. My 3770K needs 1.315 for 4600, and those are the temps I saw with Linpack and less case flow then I have now, but I was using a TY143 so that could be why.. Maybe try spinning your cooler 180 and see if there is any change. Too much TIM insulates, not enough TIM is well.. not enough.. I just benched my X5690 at 4800mhz @ 1.6v with it last week, so its pretty decent, and I did it with the windows closed 

I have a TY147A and TY147B in push/pull using TF8 for TIM.


----------



## Nidonas

doyll said:


> Yes, turning cooler to flow air up means it will be drawing from back of GPU and pulling air in off of GPU side away from motherboard so yes, warmer air from GPU into cooler. The more turns air has to make the more turbulence there is and the more warmer air mixes into cool airflow warming it up.
> Your forth fan curve is basically what I was saying, but have fan speed curve from 30-40c @ 600rpm to 40-50c @ 800rpm, to 50-60c @ 1100rpm, 60-70c @ 1200rpm an 70 +c @ full speed.
> Monitoring air temp into cooler and comparing that temp to room air entering case tells us how much higher air temp into component is so we can work on case airflow and get air temp into cooler 5c or less above room temp.


Yeah, my normal fan curve is like that because i prefer it quiet. I was just testing different fan speeds to see how they affect the temps.



Owterspace said:


> Temps seem kinda high for that speed. My 3770K needs 1.315 for 4600, and those are the temps I saw with Linpack and less case flow then I have now, but I was using a TY143 so that could be why.. Maybe try spinning your cooler 180 and see if there is any change. Too much TIM insulates, not enough TIM is well.. not enough.. I just benched my X5690 at 4800mhz @ 1.6v with it last week, so its pretty decent, and I did it with the windows closed
> 
> I have a TY147A and TY147B in push/pull using TF8 for TIM.


This overclock was done quickly just for testing purposes. I know it is inefficient now i'm back in stock.
In the past the cpu needed 1.33v for 4.6GHz but now it needs more and i don't want to go beyond 1.35v. I will probably settle at whatever frequency i can achieve below 1.3v.
As for the temps one core is always 10 degrees less that the others. A delid would help but since i won't go for extreme overclocking, i won't bother with it.


----------



## deepor

Nidonas said:


> [...] As for the temps one core is always 10 degrees less that the others. A delid would help but since i won't go for extreme overclocking, i won't bother with it.



Delidding didn't help on my 3570K with that "one core is always 10 degrees less than the others" problem. The same core's temperature was still off afterwards. I tried replacing the liquid metal another two times on the CPU, and the core kept being different.

I don't know what's going on there. I've seen people guess that it's simply the temperature sensor and not the actual core temperature. That one particular sensor is measuring differently than the ones from the other cores.


----------



## Ruok2bu

Hi @doyll, i got a new mini computer a few days ago. The case is a Thermaltake Core V1. The front can handle one 200mm, 140mm or 120mm. It's currently using the case's stock 200m fan. I want to get a new intake and 2 outtake fans (that case is limited to two 80mm fans). My motherboard only has 1 system fan header so want to use "Phanteks PWM Fan Hub Controller" to power the 3 fans. I found out from Gigabyte that the SYS fan header supports 24W (2A x 12v). What types of fans would you suggest?

My SSD's and mechanical hard drives are mounted on the side of the case and they do tend to get hot (SSD @ 38C idle/43C under load, mechanical @ 33C idle/38C under load and mechanical @ 41C idle/46C under load when room temperature is 28C). I moved some wires and managed to get the temperature of the hard drive at the back down by 5C but i can't move the wires anymore (without crushing them).

P.S. I realize you're very fond of Phanteks cases, but i looked at the mini ones available and they were too big to fit on my desk. Plus the motherboard i have has reported problems with the VRAM getting too hot and this case moves the motherboard up to the height of the intake fan.

P.S.S. The sides of the case also have a metal mesh. I was thinking of taping some clear rigid plastic inside the case so that airflow goes in from the front and out from the back only (instead of out the sides too). Is this ok to do?


----------



## doyll

Ruok2bu said:


> Hi @*doyll* , i got a new mini computer a few days ago. The case is a Thermaltake Core V1. The front can handle one 200mm, 140mm or 120mm. It's currently using the case's stock 200m fan. I want to get a new intake and 2 outtake fans (that case is limited to two 80mm fans). My motherboard only has 1 system fan header so want to use "Phanteks PWM Fan Hub Controller" to power the 3 fans. I found out from Gigabyte that the SYS fan header supports 24W (2A x 12v). What types of fans would you suggest?
> 
> My SSD's and mechanical hard drives are mounted on the side of the case and they do tend to get hot (SSD @ 38C idle/43C under load, mechanical @ 33C idle/38C under load and mechanical @ 41C idle/46C under load when room temperature is 28C). I moved some wires and managed to get the temperature of the hard drive at the back down by 5C but i can't move the wires anymore (without crushing them).
> 
> P.S. I realize you're very fond of Phanteks cases, but i looked at the mini ones available and they were too big to fit on my desk. Plus the motherboard i have has reported problems with the VRAM getting too hot and this case moves the motherboard up to the height of the intake fan.
> 
> P.S.S. The sides of the case also have a metal mesh. I was thinking of taping some clear rigid plastic inside the case so that airflow goes in from the front and out from the back only (instead of out the sides too). Is this ok to do?


What are your temps like now?


----------



## Ruok2bu

I posted them in my reply there. But i just booted up my computer now after being off all night and these are the temperatures:

I'm hoping with the rear exhaust fans, the hard drives will run cooler and with a better front intake - air flow throughout might be better. I don't know which fans to get though :S


----------



## doyll

Ruok2bu said:


> I posted them in my reply there. But i just booted up my computer now after being off all night and these are the temperatures:
> 
> I'm hoping with the rear exhaust fans, the hard drives will run cooler and with a better front intake - air flow throughout might be better. I don't know which fans to get though :S


Your HDD temps are fine. Ideal range is 25-40c with some saying 50c is fine. Temps have to be below 25c or above 45c to increase failure rates, and even then the evidence is not too clear. Seagate says operating range is 5-50c with new drives up to 60c


----------



## Ruok2bu

I didn't replace the stock 200mm case fan but i did get two 80mm exhaust fans (Noctua NF-R8 redux-1200) and while the temp decrease wasn't much - i'll accept anything at this point. Temperatures for my hard drives at idle dropped 1 to 4C and my cpu dropped by 4 to 6C at idle.


----------



## JackCY

You could run that thing probably passive since it's just some low power APU or something.

I would start to worry when your CPU runs 150W+ with a 250W+ GPU.


----------



## hazium233

I have read a fair amount of this thread, and done some searches, but I was hoping to get a couple opinions on options for improving my Meshify C. I have a bit of an unorthodox grab bag setup now with an Arctic F14 right above the PSU shroud at the front, one of the GP12's above it, and the other original GP12 as a rear exhaust.

I currently have a 2060 Strix in the case, and it is a long card ~300mm, and so it sits about 1.5cm or less from the rear of the front intake 140mm. When I bought the case earlier in the year, I only had an EVGA 1060 SC, and at the time I didn't think I would end up owning an absurd length card, but I got a deal and here we are. I removed rear PCIe slots, although I have to run a WIFI card in one of the slots so it isn't completely unobstructed back there.

I am a bit airflow limited to the GPU, not that this is surprising based on the size of the case, reviews, and some others' experiences with it. For an example, in Superposition, I have ~2-3C difference between glass panel off and on. If I spin up the F14 a bit more, it seems to make a somewhat annoying noise. 

I was thinking of at the least replacing the GP12s with something better, perhaps going with at least one Phanteks F140MP, and maybe pulling the shroud and getting a decent 120mm fan to go at the bottom of the front. Was looking for opinions on whether or not I should just get 2x140MP and toss the F14, or if it that fan might be more effective moved to the top of the front where it is just blowing at the ram and CPU. Either way ending up with an all intake configuration with 2x140mm and 1x120mm along the front. Maybe another 120mm rear, I don't know. I have 2 hard disks in the shroud, so intake from the floor/bottom isn't an option.

I saw that someone in the Fractal case thread had installed a Thermalright 147A at the bottom-front location in his Meshify C. I think that setup had a 140mm at the top-front, a 120mm in the middle-front, and then the 147A.

Thoughts? Is the proximity of the GPU to the front fans a problem that better fans won't overcome? If I could drop temperatures and noise with the fans it may be worth it even though I only paid $60 for this case new, and it looks like I could match that in fans if I am not careful. I would probably be getting them from Amazon, the F140MP looks to be one of the better ones for the money on there.

On Amazon prices look like this (shipped):

Phanteks PH F140MP - $15
Noctua P14 Redux 1500 - $15
TY147A (round) - $18
beQuiet SW3 High Speed - $23
TY147A SQ - $29 (shipped from the UK)

edit:

ebay seems to have some interesting listings.

TY147A (round) - $11
SW3 High Speed - $12.68 / fan for 2.

These are supposedly new open box, but no accessories. I have a bit of skepticism for ebay items listed as open box and new, but maybe it is worth taking a chance on those SW3s.


----------



## deepor

@hazium233:

There is a 4-pin PWM and also a 3-pin version of the SW3-HS, so make sure you are not by mistake buying a 3-pin if you really want 4-pin.


----------



## doyll

hazium233 said:


> I have read a fair amount of this thread, and done some searches, but I was hoping to get a couple opinions on options for improving my Meshify C. I have a bit of an unorthodox grab bag setup now with an Arctic F14 right above the PSU shroud at the front, one of the GP12's above it, and the other original GP12 as a rear exhaust.


If I was setting up Meshify C I would remove PCIe slot cover from back of case and stock fans replacing them with 2x good 140mm front and probably 1x 120mm bottom intakes and use no exhaust fans. Top venting might need block off except for back 100mm or so.



hazium233 said:


> I currently have a 2060 Strix in the case, and it is a long card ~300mm, and so it sits about 1.5cm or less from the rear of the front intake 140mm. When I bought the case earlier in the year, I only had an EVGA 1060 SC, and at the time I didn't think I would end up owning an absurd length card, but I got a deal and here we are. I removed rear PCIe slots, although I have to run a WIFI card in one of the slots so it isn't completely unobstructed back there.
> 
> 
> I am a bit airflow limited to the GPU, not that this is surprising based on the size of the case, reviews, and some others' experiences with it. For an example, in Superposition, I have ~2-3C difference between glass panel off and on. If I spin up the F14 a bit more, it seems to make a somewhat annoying noise.


 Bottom intake should help GPU. Also raising case up on taller feet or on open center caster base helps airflow to bottom vents.



hazium233 said:


> I was thinking of at the least replacing the GP12s with something better, perhaps going with at least one Phanteks F140MP, and maybe pulling the shroud and getting a decent 120mm fan to go at the bottom of the front. Was looking for opinions on whether or not I should just get 2x140MP and toss the F14, or if it that fan might be more effective moved to the top of the front where it is just blowing at the ram and CPU. Either way ending up with an all intake configuration with 2x140mm and 1x120mm along the front. Maybe another 120mm rear, I don't know. I have 2 hard disks in the shroud, so intake from the floor/bottom isn't an option.


2x PH-F140MP in front and possible 1x 120mm in bottom



hazium233 said:


> I saw that someone in the Fractal case thread had installed a Thermalright 147A at the bottom-front location in his Meshify C. I think that setup had a 140mm at the top-front, a 120mm in the middle-front, and then the 147A.
> 
> Thoughts? Is the proximity of the GPU to the front fans a problem that better fans won't overcome? If I could drop temperatures and noise with the fans it may be worth it even though I only paid $60 for this case new, and it looks like I could match that in fans if I am not careful. I would probably be getting them from Amazon, the F140MP looks to be one of the better ones for the money on there.


Problem is TY-147A is 140x153mm with 120mm fan mount spacing (105mm hole spacing) so won't fit in all fan openings. 





hazium233 said:


> On Amazon prices look like this (shipped):
> 
> Phanteks PH F140MP - $15
> Noctua P14 Redux 1500 - $15
> TY147A (round) - $18
> beQuiet SW3 High Speed - $23
> TY147A SQ - $29 (shipped from the UK)
> 
> edit:
> 
> ebay seems to have some interesting listings.
> 
> TY147A (round) - $11
> SW3 High Speed - $12.68 / fan for 2.
> 
> These are supposedly new open box, but no accessories. I have a bit of skepticism for ebay items listed as open box and new, but maybe it is worth taking a chance on those SW3s.


As deepor posted, both PWM and variable voltage are good. Just make sure your motherboard can speed control whichever you get.


----------



## Shenhua

hazium233 said:


> I have read a fair amount of this thread, and done some searches, but I was hoping to get a couple opinions on options for improving my Meshify C. I have a bit of an unorthodox grab bag setup now with an Arctic F14 right above the PSU shroud at the front, one of the GP12's above it, and the other original GP12 as a rear exhaust.
> 
> 
> 
> I currently have a 2060 Strix in the case, and it is a long card ~300mm, and so it sits about 1.5cm or less from the rear of the front intake 140mm. When I bought the case earlier in the year, I only had an EVGA 1060 SC, and at the time I didn't think I would end up owning an absurd length card, but I got a deal and here we are. I removed rear PCIe slots, although I have to run a WIFI card in one of the slots so it isn't completely unobstructed back there.
> 
> 
> 
> I am a bit airflow limited to the GPU, not that this is surprising based on the size of the case, reviews, and some others' experiences with it. For an example, in Superposition, I have ~2-3C difference between glass panel off and on. If I spin up the F14 a bit more, it seems to make a somewhat annoying noise.
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking of at the least replacing the GP12s with something better, perhaps going with at least one Phanteks F140MP, and maybe pulling the shroud and getting a decent 120mm fan to go at the bottom of the front. Was looking for opinions on whether or not I should just get 2x140MP and toss the F14, or if it that fan might be more effective moved to the top of the front where it is just blowing at the ram and CPU. Either way ending up with an all intake configuration with 2x140mm and 1x120mm along the front. Maybe another 120mm rear, I don't know. I have 2 hard disks in the shroud, so intake from the floor/bottom isn't an option.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw that someone in the Fractal case thread had installed a Thermalright 147A at the bottom-front location in his Meshify C. I think that setup had a 140mm at the top-front, a 120mm in the middle-front, and then the 147A.
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts? Is the proximity of the GPU to the front fans a problem that better fans won't overcome? If I could drop temperatures and noise with the fans it may be worth it even though I only paid $60 for this case new, and it looks like I could match that in fans if I am not careful. I would probably be getting them from Amazon, the F140MP looks to be one of the better ones for the money on there.
> 
> 
> 
> On Amazon prices look like this (shipped):
> 
> 
> 
> Phanteks PH F140MP - $15
> 
> Noctua P14 Redux 1500 - $15
> 
> TY147A (round) - $18
> 
> beQuiet SW3 High Speed - $23
> 
> TY147A SQ - $29 (shipped from the UK)
> 
> 
> 
> edit:
> 
> 
> 
> ebay seems to have some interesting listings.
> 
> 
> 
> TY147A (round) - $11
> 
> SW3 High Speed - $12.68 / fan for 2.
> 
> 
> 
> These are supposedly new open box, but no accessories. I have a bit of skepticism for ebay items listed as open box and new, but maybe it is worth taking a chance on those SW3s.


I have the same case, and almost identical GPU (1080strix). And i already tryed and tested a lot of things. At first i was running 2x140 on the front and 1x120mm on the rear.

Remove HDD cage, clear the excess cables and tuck them behind the motherboard. The storage mount it on the floor of the case. Remove the top of the PSU shroud aswell and most or all pcie brackets. That should give you about 5 to 10°C improvement on GPU side.

Doesn't really matter enough if you place 2x140mm+120mm or 3x120mm in the front, at least not enough to care (i have the first).

A rear fan does improve things aswell for the GPU, but again, since the impact it's not big, it can be discarded. I did it.

In my case i took the next step and modded the GPU aswell with 2x120mm silent wings. That got me another 8-10°C improvement.

Before, my card was sitting at 72-78°C.
Now it sits at 57-63, but with a reduction in noise like 4 times lower. If i would run the system at same noise level, the improvement in GPU temps, probably goes over 20°C Delta.


----------



## doyll

I forgot to say all openings in front fan mounting panel not covered by fans need to be blocked off so the air fans are pushing into case does not leak back in front of them, but move back and out of case.


----------



## hazium233

Thanks for the input, all.



deepor said:


> @hazium233:
> 
> There is a 4-pin PWM and also a 3-pin version of the SW3-HS, so make sure you are not by mistake buying a 3-pin if you really want 4-pin.


Right. I should have specified, all of the ones I was listing above were for 140mm PWM versions.



doyll said:


> If I was setting up Meshify C I would remove PCIe slot cover from back of case and stock fans replacing them with 2x good 140mm front and probably 1x 120mm bottom intakes and use no exhaust fans. Top venting might need block off except for back 100mm or so.


Yeah, I removed the PCIe covers. There is a bit of flow reversal when the GPU fans spin up. I am not surprised, I used to knock them all out on my old cheap cases with stamped slots. The top does leak some air towards the front, with the GP12 it is only like the first third. As for the rest of the length, that turns into intake depending on what the Wraith Prism and rear fan are doing it would seem. I might end up blocking the whole thing just for dust purposes, because it isn't as if the magnetic mesh does much of that.



> Bottom intake should help GPU. Also raising case up on taller feet or on open center caster base helps airflow to bottom vents.
> 
> 2x PH-F140MP in front and possible 1x 120mm in bottom
> 
> Problem is TY-147A is 140x153mm with 120mm fan mount spacing (105mm hole spacing) so won't fit in all fan openings.
> 
> As deepor posted, both PWM and variable voltage are good. Just make sure your motherboard can speed control whichever you get.


Yes, I don't think I can do a fan mounted horizontally on the very bottom with the drives in there, but I haven't really looked at how far they can go backwards. I was thinking front might be an ok compromise, there is mounting a little further rearward I think.

I tried to ask the poster in that Fractal thread if he had to trim / square the fan to fit it in that spot. The mounting slots for 120mm are basically available most all the height of the front IIRC, and I think those fans might fit the width without trimming anyway.

Board is an X370-F and all the fans headers are PWM... although I think the AIO one might have odd control (never used it, just read about it).



Shenhua said:


> I have the same case, and almost identical GPU (1080strix). And i already tryed and tested a lot of things. At first i was running 2x140 on the front and 1x120mm on the rear.
> 
> Remove HDD cage, clear the excess cables and tuck them behind the motherboard. The storage mount it on the floor of the case. Remove the top of the PSU shroud aswell and most or all pcie brackets. That should give you about 5 to 10°C improvement on GPU side.
> 
> Doesn't really matter enough if you place 2x140mm+120mm or 3x120mm in the front, at least not enough to care (i have the first).
> 
> A rear fan does improve things aswell for the GPU, but again, since the impact it's not big, it can be discarded. I did it.
> 
> In my case i took the next step and modded the GPU aswell with 2x120mm silent wings. That got me another 8-10°C improvement.
> 
> Before, my card was sitting at 72-78°C.
> Now it sits at 57-63, but with a reduction in noise like 4 times lower. If i would run the system at same noise level, the improvement in GPU temps, probably goes over 20°C Delta.


Yes, I saw some of your posts, which is part of what made me think I should probably pull the PSU cover instead of just doing twin 140mm in the front.

I need to look into the other mounting options for my hard drives, I am not ready to remove spinning disks completely any time soon.

Also saw your post of suggestions to Fractal, it was pretty much spot on. Although I go back and forth on the length, it is sort of nice that it doesn't stick out as far where I have it located. Real shame that more of the shroud isn't removable though.

Although this case is all right in some ways, I was starting to wonder if I should just try a different one. But I figured I might as well do fans for now. Could always put them in the next one if I do change.



doyll said:


> I forgot to say all openings in front fan mounting panel not covered by fans need to be blocked off so the air fans are pushing into case does not leak back in front of them, but move back and out of case.


Didn't think of this, thanks.


----------



## Shenhua

You can mount storage directly on the floor. Unless you have like 3 HDD. And even then, you can mount them on the top of the case.

Walls are the best option for mounting storage without, screwing up airflow.


----------



## doyll

What Shenhua said. :thumb:
If you are lazy like me, HDDs can just set on bottom without any mount at all. 

Vercro tape works well as a vibration dampter. The kind that has sticky back. Only problem is it sometimes pulls the sticky side loose when removing HDD.


----------



## hazium233

Ha, right.

Have seen complaints of vibration causing the bottom dust filter to rattle when HDDs are directly mounted to the bottom of this case. It sort of has a vibration every once and a while with them in the cage anyway though.

I didn't mention them earlier, but the P14 PWM is only ~$10 at Amazon. Went through the P12 P14 thread last night, seemed to be some strong opinions in there. I don't think I am going to get to tearing the computer apart until the holidays anyway, so I have some time.


----------



## doyll

hazium233 said:


> Ha, right.
> 
> Have seen complaints of vibration causing the bottom dust filter to rattle when HDDs are directly mounted to the bottom of this case. It sort of has a vibration every once and a while with them in the cage anyway though.
> 
> I didn't mention them earlier, but the P14 PWM is only ~$10 at Amazon. Went through the P12 P14 thread last night, seemed to be some strong opinions in there. I don't think I am going to get to tearing the computer apart until the holidays anyway, so I have some time.



Good reason to set them on a little foam or whatever to absorb vibration .. like vercro does.


----------



## ThrashZone

Hi,
I haven't seen this before 
https://www.icegiantcooling.com/

https://www.icegiantcooling.com/prosiphonelite


----------



## ciarlatano

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> I haven't seen this before
> https://www.icegiantcooling.com/
> 
> https://www.icegiantcooling.com/prosiphonelite


https://www.overclock.net/forum/246-air-cooling/1738546-air-cooler-me-thermosiphon.html


----------



## doyll

What Ciarlatano said. 

Interesteing idea using same thermal siphoning as Cap-Therm Systems was using back in early 2014 in their MP 1140, also in MP1120 and MP1240. They showed them at CES 2014 and 2015.
https://www.legitreviews.com/ces-2015-captherm_157114


----------



## ThrashZone

Hi,
Yep might not of missed that thread if the title had ice giant in it somewhere :doh:

Awkward weight 2-4 fans interesting have to rig a support for the monster.


----------



## ciarlatano

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Yep might not of missed that thread if the title had ice giant in it somewhere :doh:
> 
> Awkward weight 2-4 fans interesting have to rig a support for the monster.


Eh, that thread got Pooh Beared pretty quickly. You have to wade through his nonsense and the reactions to his nonsense to get any info.


----------



## doyll

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Yep might not of missed that thread if the title had ice giant in it somewhere :doh:
> 
> Awkward weight 2-4 fans interesting have to rig a support for the monster.


Not a problem. I wish Cap-Therm had got their version to market. It really looked promising.


----------



## ThrashZone

doyll said:


> Not a problem. I wish Cap-Therm had got their version to market. It really looked promising.


Hi,
Sure is a different look.


----------



## doyll

There have been some AIOs made and shown at computer trade shows using thermal flow. I've seen passive heating and heat storage for homes done this way too. It's simply using heat to cause coolant to rise to higher level (into radiator) where it is then cooled and cycles back to waterblock. Same as liquid cooler below with separate waterblock and radiator with hoses between them.
https://www.techspot.com/news/65070-raijintek-creates-closed-loop-liquid-cpu-cooler-without.html


----------



## hazium233

I have had my two 140mm SW3 High Speeds PWM installed for a little over a week now. I ended up trying to test the PWM v RPM curve for my fans just to compare to previous results. It came out pretty linear actually. Minimum speed was 384 RPM, max 1646. This is with an Asus X370-F motherboard. They might go a little lower, but this was near the bottom of what Q-fan allowed.

I still haven't completely figured out what Asus's fan control is doing on this board, and whether there is a temp override value where it will max the fans. It may be how it is interpolating with steeper curves though. Does Q-fan reinterpret signal to RPM when "optimize" function is run? I suppose if that is the case, this curve may not actually apply if the fans are connected to a different board or controller.


----------



## deepor

@hazium233: 

The curve you got is the real one of the fan. Here's the numbers I measured with one of my SW3 High-Speed 140mm PWM on an old Gigabyte board, and later I found that the numbers are the same on a different board from ASRock:



Code:


PWM output, Fan speed
0%, 0
5%, 0
10%, 156
15%, 256
20%, 365
25%, 470
30%, 574
35%, 657
40%, 744
45%, 849
50%, 909
55%, 986
60%, 1053
65%, 1123
70%, 1227
75%, 1303
80%, 1374
85%, 1448
90%, 1496
95%, 1584
100%, 1630

That looks like the same numbers as in your graph. I think your board only interferes below 20%, everything else about the fan speed it leaves alone.


----------



## umeng2002

hazium233 said:


> I have had my two 140mm SW3 High Speeds PWM installed for a little over a week now. I ended up trying to test the PWM v RPM curve for my fans just to compare to previous results. It came out pretty linear actually. Minimum speed was 384 RPM, max 1646. This is with an Asus X370-F motherboard. They might go a little lower, but this was near the bottom of what Q-fan allowed.
> 
> I still haven't completely figured out what Asus's fan control is doing on this board, and whether there is a temp override value where it will max the fans. It may be how it is interpolating with steeper curves though. Does Q-fan reinterpret signal to RPM when "optimize" function is run? I suppose if that is the case, this curve may not actually apply if the fans are connected to a different board or controller.


Yes, it will allow you to turn the DC controlled fans down lower than default if you run the Q-fan optimization if the Q-fan detects they'll spin at lower values. There should be an "allow fan stop" on some case fan channels, so the fan stops spinning when bellow a certain temp... this doesn't work on the CPU and maybe one of the other chassis fan headers.

When tuning fans on an Asus board, install the AI_SuiteIII with fanXpert or whatever it's called. Doing it in Windows is much more convieniant than in the BIOS. Get the settings from the program, then manually input them into the BIOS and uninstall the AI_SuiteIII program if you don't want it. The program and the BIOS fan controller functions are essentially the same.

The fan program, in Windows, doing the q-fan optimization, will also generate a rpm vs PWM or DC signal graph.

People say AI_SuiteIII causes "issues," but it's been working for me on my X470 Prime Pro board.


----------



## hazium233

@deepor

Yes, that is basically what I got within a few RPM or so. Although I didn't test as many values as you did, I was originally just trying to see what it was doing in the upper RPM and signal range.


----------



## gr4474

Using what I have already, this is my doyll inspired setup:


----------



## doyll

gr4474 said:


> Using what I have already, this is my doyll inspired setup:


Looks like it should work. :thumb:

I assume top front fan is drawing air in from top and through 5.25" front bays?
What kind of temps are you getting? Are fans staying quiet? 

Looks like a little cable management still needs to be done. Even a small wire will create turbulence in and thus lower airflow raising temps.


----------



## Shenhua

gr4474 said:


> Using what I have already, this is my doyll inspired setup:


Mad Max build


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> Mad Max build[emoji23]


While not as clean and neat as some it's nothing like Mad Max builds. :thumbsdow


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> While not as clean and neat as some it's nothing like Mad Max builds. :thumbsdow


I meant it in the literal way, not the looks wise.
At first look, it seems like he threw every old and dusty piece of hardware he could find, rigged it all together, then "threw a bit of agressive Red".


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> I meant it in the literal way, not the looks wise.
> At first look, it seems like he threw every old and dusty piece of hardware he could find, rigged it all, then threw a bit of agressive Red.


Well he did say "Using what I have already" .. and that's what 'Mad Max' builds are kinda supposed to be.


----------



## gr4474

doyll said:


> Looks like it should work. :thumb:
> 
> I assume top front fan is drawing air in from top and through 5.25" front bays?
> What kind of temps are you getting? Are fans staying quiet?
> 
> Looks like a little cable management still needs to be done. Even a small wire will create turbulence in and thus lower airflow raising temps.


That's right, I gutted the 5.25 bay area. Fans are pretty quiet. They are 3 pin, so it is not the best fan control. I turned them to level 1 in the AsRock bios, but not sure if it reduced RPM. Thanks for the advise. I need to clean up cables.

Edit: I'm getting idle CPU: 64 c
idle GPU: 27 c
gaming GPU: 65 c
gaming CPU: 68 c


----------



## doyll

gr4474 said:


> That's right, I gutted the 5.25 bay area. Fans are pretty quiet. They are 3 pin, so it is not the best fan control. I turned them to level 1 in the AsRock bios, but not sure if it reduced RPM. Thanks for the advise. I need to clean up cables.
> 
> Edit: I'm getting idle CPU: 64 c
> idle GPU: 27 c
> gaming GPU: 65 c
> gaming CPU: 68 c


 Looks good if you like RGB .. I'm not an RGB kind of guy. 
64c CPU idle is quite high, even under smallish cooler like 212. CPU idle is usually 27-35c. How much load is on CPU when gaming? While some games use a lot of CPU, some us very little.
Hard to tell why without knowing air temp into 212. Might be worth getting a cheap indoor/outdoor digital thermometer, terrarium or fridge remote sensor thermometer to monitor air temp into CPU cooler .. and GPU etc. Anywhere you want to know air temp. 2nd and 5th posts this thread shows one like I use.


----------



## gr4474

Ok I'm busted as a noob. I rebooted and am about 60c on the CPU. I recently applied thermal paste and reinstalled the CPU cooler. It seems I may need to take it off again to check.


----------



## doyll

gr4474 said:


> Ok I'm busted as a noob. I rebooted and am about 60c on the CPU. I recently applied thermal paste and reinstalled the CPU cooler. It seems I may need to take it off again to check.


 60c is way too hot for idle temp, but 68c heavy load is reasonalbe. Maybe CPU is not working hard when you are gaming.
I would run a CPU stress test to find out what temps are under extreme load before remounting cooler.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> 60c is way too hot for idle temp, but 68c heavy load is reasonalbe. Maybe CPU is not working hard when you are gaming.
> I would run a CPU stress test to find out what temps are under extreme load before remounting cooler.


The temp under load seems fine....but if you were running a 60C idle temp, opening a web browser would send it 80C+. I'm thinking the sensors are giving a bad idle temp reading.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> The temp under load seems fine....but if you were running a 60C idle temp, opening a web browser would send it 80C+. I'm thinking the sensors are giving a bad idle temp reading.


Good point! :thumb:
Indeed! It's not possible to be 60c idle and 70c full load .. at least I can't think of any way it could be. Defective sensor is logical.
Maybe slip finger under fins and feel top of cooler base to see how warm it is at idle and when stress testing. That's the only place you will feel any heat in cooler, and even it would be hot.


----------



## Molitro

Hello fellas, question.

Right now I'm quite happy running a Fractal S2 with 5 Noctuas pushing air in (3 front 2 bottom) and an Arctic Freezer 2 280 on top pushing air out plus one last fan on the back, out.
This is allowing me very quiet operation, with the case fans ramping to a max of about 700 RPM and the Freezer to 50% under heavy load, more than that having pretty much no effect, and so the GPU gets about as much cool air as it's gonna get.

I'm thinking of putting the Freezer on the front of the case, leaving just the 2 fans of the bottom and it pushing air in, then placing 1 or 2 on top to pull air out, along with the back fan.
Reason being one of "safety", as in, if something in the radiator leaked (Guessing if something fails it'll be on the pump side, but you never now), it wouldn't leak over anything, whereas now it could leak on the GPU.

The question is, do you think it'd affect the temperatures of the inside of the case (so the GPU) in any messurable way? My guess is the CPU probably barely puts enough heat in the radiator to heat up the case, or to counter the 2 bottom fans, but...
Reason I'm asking instead of just testing it out is that because of the way the cables are routed, it takes me a while to move things around, so I might aswell ask first if people here think it'd be worth it to do the swap.


----------



## doyll

Molitro said:


> Hello fellas, question.
> 
> Right now I'm quite happy running a Fractal S2 with 5 Noctuas pushing air in (3 front 2 bottom) and an Arctic Freezer 2 280 on top pushing air out plus one last fan on the back, out.
> This is allowing me very quiet operation, with the case fans ramping to a max of about 700 RPM and the Freezer to 50% under heavy load, more than that having pretty much no effect, and so the GPU gets about as much cool air as it's gonna get.
> 
> I'm thinking of putting the Freezer on the front of the case, leaving just the 2 fans of the bottom and it pushing air in, then placing 1 or 2 on top to pull air out, along with the back fan.
> Reason being one of "safety", as in, if something in the radiator leaked (Guessing if something fails it'll be on the pump side, but you never now), it wouldn't leak over anything, whereas now it could leak on the GPU.
> 
> The question is, do you think it'd affect the temperatures of the inside of the case (so the GPU) in any messurable way? My guess is the CPU probably barely puts enough heat in the radiator to heat up the case, or to counter the 2 bottom fans, but...
> Reason I'm asking instead of just testing it out is that because of the way the cables are routed, it takes me a while to move things around, so I might aswell ask first if people here think it'd be worth it to do the swap.


 Sounds like good setup. Probably more fans than needed, especially exhaust, but as you have them might as well use them. 

I won't use CLCs, but that's me. Pobably best to leave rad up top top because over time there is coolant loss and air getting into system, so with rad above pump air will be up there and not get caught in pumpwhere it would probalby cause damage.


----------



## Molitro

doyll said:


> Sounds like good setup. Probably more fans than needed, especially exhaust, but as you have them might as well use them.
> 
> 
> 
> I won't use CLCs, but that's me. Pobably best to leave rad up top top because over time there is coolant loss and air getting into system, so with rad above pump air will be up there and not get caught in pumpwhere it would probalby cause damage.


I've been using a D15 for years, but the Freezer II looked good enough that I wanted to try it.
Being fair, although I still like the D15 for simplicity if not anything else, I now have a quieter setup (it's about as silent at idle, but on load it's noticeably less noise, since the Freezer is so overkill it barely lowers temps over 50%), with also the benefit of the case being cooler, the GPU having lowered about 2º.



> there is coolant loss and air getting into system, so with rad above pump air will be up there and not get caught in pumpwhere it would probalby cause damage.


Yeah i was gonna put the tubs at the bottom so any air bubbles would stay on the top of the radiator, away from the tubes.

And yeah is an overkill of fans, but it's so nice to be able to keep them running so low.


----------



## doyll

Molitro said:


> I've been using a D15 for years, but the Freezer II looked good enough that I wanted to try it.
> Being fair, although I still like the D15 for simplicity if not anything else, I now have a quieter setup (it's about as silent at idle, but on load it's noticeably less noise, since the Freezer is so overkill it barely lowers temps over 50%), with also the benefit of the case being cooler, the GPU having lowered about 2º.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah i was gonna put the tubs at the bottom so any air bubbles would stay on the top of the radiator, away from the tubes.
> 
> And yeah is an overkill of fans, but it's so nice to be able to keep them running so low.


 If case is cooler with CLC then with air cooler than case airflow was not setup properly .. and I'm guessing you didn't have 2x 140mm top exhaust vent fans before either. Did you ever monitored air temp into your D15? Would be interesting to know what it was. 

My builds have air temp inside of case (air entering coolers) no more than 2-3c above room temp. Temps I've seen from reviews comparing Arctic Freezer II have been case built systems without air temp into coolers being monitored / recorded and used for delta temp comparisons .. and anyonw who understand case airflow knows stock case fan setup gives terrible case airflow / high temp air into coolers. This means tests prove nothing more than what temps are in that build.


----------



## Molitro

doyll said:


> If case is cooler with CLC then with air cooler than case airflow was not setup properly .. and I'm guessing you didn't have 2x 140mm top exhaust vent fans before either. Did you ever monitored air temp into your D15? Would be interesting to know what it was.


Yeah I misspoke, or just flat out said the wrong thing.
Air inside the case was probably similarly cool (I did test out several exhaust setups, including top exhaust fans, to no real effect, only using 2 fans instead of 1 in the D15 had an effect on CPU temps).

Really what happened is the GPU no longer has the D15 milimeters from it's back, which lead to a couple of degrees of improvement, as air all around the GPU is now cool, as opposed to having a heat source just above (and of course the opposite is true also, GPU outputting plenty of heat right on the D15).


The real improvement though, I can assure was on the noise side of things. The D15 needed more RPM to achieve the same "lowest possible for my system" CPU temps, Freezer II is measurably quieter at full load, either with or without GPU load.


----------



## doyll

Molitro said:


> Yeah I misspoke, or just flat out said the wrong thing.
> Air inside the case was probably similarly cool (I did test out several exhaust setups, including top exhaust fans, to no real effect, only using 2 fans instead of 1 in the D15 had an effect on CPU temps).
> 
> Really what happened is the GPU no longer has the D15 milimeters from it's back, which lead to a couple of degrees of improvement, as air all around the GPU is now cool, as opposed to having a heat source just above (and of course the opposite is true also, GPU outputting plenty of heat right on the D15).
> 
> 
> The real improvement though, I can assure was on the noise side of things. The D15 needed more RPM to achieve the same "lowest possible for my system" CPU temps, Freezer II is measurably quieter at full load, either with or without GPU load.


 Before I would say air inside of case / going into cooler 'is similarly cool' I would first monitor air temp into cooler at the different fan speeds .. like from idle at about 600rpm, mid-level load at about 800-1000rpm and at full laod at about 1100-1200rpm to see what the actual air temp into cooler is. 

Obvious reason is air coming out the rear exhaust vent which is behind tower cooler will be much warmer than air coming out the top vents which are drawing cool front intake air up thus drawing heated exhaust off of hard working GPU up into CPU cooler's air intake area and into it. 
Sorry, but there is no alternate way of knowing what air temp into cooler is. Only way is to monitor it with a remote sensor probe while system is running at different load levels.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Before I would say air inside of case / going into cooler 'is similarly cool' I would first monitor air temp into cooler at the different fan speeds .. like from idle at about 600rpm, mid-level load at about 800-1000rpm and at full laod at about 1100-1200rpm to see what the actual air temp into cooler is.
> 
> Obvious reason is air coming out the rear exhaust vent which is behind tower cooler will be much warmer than air coming out the top vents which are drawing cool front intake air up thus drawing heated exhaust off of hard working GPU up into CPU cooler's air intake area and into it.
> Sorry, but there is no alternate way of knowing what air temp into cooler is. Only way is to monitor it with a remote sensor probe while system is running at different load levels.


If you recall...way back when.....I had tested a number of CLC and air coolers in a Luxe. I had the same result with CLCs having a lower internal case temp, and you said the same thing at that time. It turned out to be simply a case of having the additional exhaust fans that the CLCs provided. Adding two exhaust fans up top to the air cooling setups evened it right out. Conversely, air coolers produced lower in case temps than CLCs in the EVOLV ATX.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> If you recall...way back when.....I had tested a number of CLC and air coolers in a Luxe. I had the same result with CLCs having a lower internal case temp, and you said the same thing at that time. It turned out to be simply a case of having the additional exhaust fans that the CLCs provided. Adding two exhaust fans up top to the air cooling setups evened it right out. Conversely, air coolers produced lower in case temps than CLCs in the EVOLV ATX.


Indeed, I do remember. :thumb:


----------



## Valka814

Hey guys!

Recently I bought a 5700XT, which is more power hungry than my previous VGA. So I like to replace my 2 front intake fans atleast in my Fractal Design R5 case. I also dont want to go above 1.5k rpm, when my CPU goes slightly over 75 degress during long Handbrake encoding.
I'm looking at the Akasa Apache 140 PWM atm, is it a good choice or can you recommend me a better one?
Thanks!


----------



## doyll

Valka814 said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Recently I bought a 5700XT, which is more power hungry than my previous VGA. So I like to replace my 2 front intake fans atleast in my Fractal Design R5 case. I also dont want to go above 1.5k rpm, when my CPU goes slightly over 75 degress during long Handbrake encoding.
> I'm looking at the Akasa Apache 140 PWM atm, is it a good choice or can you recommend me a better one?
> Thanks!


 Really depends on what fans you can get where you are and their prices. Akasa Apache are decent fans. Are all opening in front fan mounting panel not covered by fans blocked off so air they are pushing into case can't leak back in front of them? Have you removed PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU and thus improve front to back airflow? This usually lowers GPU temps as well as CPU because it move GPU heated exhaust back instead of up where it mixes and warms cool air going to CPU cooler. If you can give us a couple links to sites you can buy from we can make suggestions you can get. What is your buget?


----------



## Shenhua

Valka814 said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> 
> 
> Recently I bought a 5700XT, which is more power hungry than my previous VGA. So I like to replace my 2 front intake fans atleast in my Fractal Design R5 case. I also dont want to go above 1.5k rpm, when my CPU goes slightly over 75 degress during long Handbrake encoding.
> 
> I'm looking at the Akasa Apache 140 PWM atm, is it a good choice or can you recommend me a better one? And it's cheap. Really cheap. You need zip ties, 2 fans (20-40 bucks) and an adapter + a splitter or just a splitter.
> 
> Thanks!


Do this. It's gonna get you much better improvement than changing anything else in the case.


----------



## Valka814

doyll said:


> Really depends on what fans you can get where you are and their prices. Akasa Apache are decent fans. Are all opening in front fan mounting panel not covered by fans blocked off so air they are pushing into case can't leak back in front of them? Have you removed PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU and thus improve front to back airflow? This usually lowers GPU temps as well as CPU because it move GPU heated exhaust back instead of up where it mixes and warms cool air going to CPU cooler. If you can give us a couple links to sites you can buy from we can make suggestions you can get. What is your buget?


There is no place at the front, where air can go back and there aren't any HDD cage behind the fans. But the air is sucked from the side grill and have to go through a filter before its reach the fans.
While I would like to keep the price low, I can spend more, if its worth it. The sites shows prices in forint (hungarian currency), I would like keep it below 7000-8000 (Akasa Apache is around 5000).
I'm in the middle of Europe, Hungary. These are generally the cheapest webshops here:
https://aqua.hu/termekek/14-cm-es-698.html?filter=[stock=1]&sort=Price%20asc
https://www.pcx.hu/rendszer_huto/ar...tered=1&categoryId=10642&type=&search=&filter[properties][33113][]=38446


----------



## ThrashZone

Hi,
Don't believe that filter is working 
Remove pci-e slot covers.


----------



## doyll

Valka814 said:


> There is no place at the front, where air can go back and there aren't any HDD cage behind the fans. But the air is sucked from the side grill and have to go through a filter before its reach the fans.
> While I would like to keep the price low, I can spend more, if its worth it. The sites shows prices in forint (hungarian currency), I would like keep it below 7000-8000 (Akasa Apache is around 5000).
> I'm in the middle of Europe, Hungary. These are generally the cheapest webshops here:
> https://aqua.hu/termekek/14-cm-es-698.html?filter=[stock=1]&sort=Price%20asc
> https://www.pcx.hu/rendszer_huto/ar...tered=1&categoryId=10642&type=&search=&filter[properties][33113][]=38446


I am familiar with Define R series and have owned R2 and R5. If I remember correctly there is a front door as in front cover as well as a 5.25" bays. Just make sure none of them has cracks/gaps or holes that will leak air back in front of fans. 
Fans I would normally use/suggest are quite high priced. I did find SilentiumPC SPC137 140mm Sigma PRO 140 PWM at 3180 Ft.

https://www.pcx.hu/silentiumpc-spc137-140mm-sigma-pro-140-pwm-rendszer-hutoventilator-182373

SilentiumPC copied the basic design from Thermalright TY-14x series and Noctua NF-A14 series fans which perform very well. If it was me I would use them in front and bottom. In front block the opening in corners of fans that normal square 140mm fans cover in fan mounting panel. And as I said before and @[URL="https://www.overclock.net/forum/members/536459-thrashzone.html"][B][COLOR=#454545]ThrashZone[/COLOR][/B][/URL]; posted, remove all PCIe back slot covers. You do not need any exhaust fans, none at all. I can't remember if R5 has top vent cover, but if it does you might get better temps with back 140mm open. Easy to check by setting a magazine or book over front 2/3rds of vent.


----------



## Valka814

doyll said:


> I am familiar with Define R series and have owned R2 and R5. If I remember correctly there is a front door as in front cover as well as a 5.25" bays. Just make sure none of them has cracks/gaps or holes that will leak air back in front of fans.
> Fans I would normally use/suggest are quite high priced. I did find SilentiumPC SPC137 140mm Sigma PRO 140 PWM at 3180 Ft.
> 
> https://www.pcx.hu/silentiumpc-spc137-140mm-sigma-pro-140-pwm-rendszer-hutoventilator-182373
> 
> SilentiumPC copied the basic design from Thermalright TY-14x series and Noctua NF-A14 series fans which perform very well. If it was me I would use them in front and bottom. In front block the opening in corners of fans that normal square 140mm fans cover in fan mounting panel. And as I said before and @[URL="https://www.overclock.net/forum/members/536459-thrashzone.html"][B][COLOR=#454545]ThrashZone[/COLOR][/B][/URL]; posted, remove all PCIe back slot covers. You do not need any exhaust fans, none at all. I can't remember if R5 has top vent cover, but if it does you might get better temps with back 140mm open. Easy to check by setting a magazine or book over front 2/3rds of vent.


Thats much cheaper than I thought it would be. Or I not expressed myself well enough. I'm willing to pay 7-8000 forint/fan. But if its that good and better than like the Akasa Apache then is good for me. 
Anyhow, thanks for the help!


----------



## doyll

Valka814 said:


> Thats much cheaper than I thought it would be. Or I not expressed myself well enough. I'm willing to pay 7-8000 forint/fan. But if its that good and better than like the Akasa Apache then is good for me.
> Anyhow, thanks for the help!


I don't use SilentiumPC products because they are almost exact copies of others. Only their housing is different with 105mm mounting holes (120mm fan size) with the adapter tabs for 124.5mm holes used on 140mm fans. Below is image showing several well liked fans all with similar impeller design:


----------



## Valka814

doyll said:


> I don't use SilentiumPC products because they are almost exact copies of others. Only their housing is different with 105mm mounting holes (120mm fan size) with the adapter tabs for 124.5mm holes used on 140mm fans. Below is image showing several well liked fans all with similar impeller design:


Thank you very much! Today I will probably recieve the recommended fans.


----------



## doyll

Valka814 said:


> Thank you very much! Today I will probably recieve the recommended fans.


Please let us know how they work out. You are only 2nd or 3rd person I know of using SilentiumPC SPC137 fans and first to use them as case fans. :thumb:


----------



## TeslaHUN

What do u guys think; what would be the absoulute best air cooler on Earth ? I will sell my custom water ,once the new Silverstone Alta S1 case is coming to market; going back to full air again.
I think the biggest single tower Scythe Ninja 5 with 2x Noctua NF 12x25 fan could be it, since its only few degrees behind top coolers like D15 , and Ninja have only max800 rpm fans ( i cant stand noise over 1200 rpm anyway , so TY 143 and 3000 rpm noctuas are not an option )


----------



## ajx

Hey, this method for applying thermal paste seems awesome
Do you think this glass method would be useful in order to spread thermal paste before adding cpu cooler?
Thanks


----------



## Gilles3000

ajx said:


> Hey, this method for applying thermal paste seems awesome
> Do you think this glass method would be useful in order to spread thermal paste before adding cpu cooler?
> Thanks
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hNgFNH7zhQ


It isn't actually a method for applying thermal paste, its for checking or testing thermal paste application methods.

So you can use it to see how your paste spreads with your choice of application technique, but you aren't supposed to put a cooler on there afterwards as you'll introduce air pockets.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> What do u guys think; what would be the absoulute best air cooler on Earth ? I will sell my custom water ,once the new Silverstone Alta S1 case is coming to market; going back to full air again.
> I think the biggest single tower Scythe Ninja 5 with 2x Noctua NF 12x25 fan could be it, since its only few degrees behind top coolers like D15 , and Ninja have only max800 rpm fans ( i cant stand noise over 1200 rpm anyway , so TY 143 and 3000 rpm noctuas are not an option )


One of the best if not very best is Thermalright TRUE Spirit 140 Power. It has 6x 8mm heatpipes giving it more ability to transfer more heat from base to fins than others. It cools a little better than NH-D14 which cools as well or slightly better than NH-D15 with same fans. Replace stock fan with TY-143 and it's as quiet as with stock fan at same speed, but at higher rpm / noise levels it can gives 8-9c lower temps. But keep in mind it's 171mm tall so won't fit all cases and 155mm wide / fins reach 77.5mm each side of center so it blocks PCIe sockets on some motherboards.


----------



## D-EJ915

The Fuma 2 is better than the Ninja 5 even with the same fans on both when I tested both of mine. Unless you're going for an aesthetic build and need the Ninja I'd pass on it.

If you can fit the TS140 Power Doyll mentioned that is the single tower cooler to get at the moment its price/performance is absurd at around $50 typically.


----------



## ajx

Hey, how is my amount of thermal paste?

https://imgur.com/LH8rZCq

Should i put more?
It covered fully Z of ryzen 

Thanks


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> Hey, how is my amount of thermal paste?
> 
> https://imgur.com/LH8rZCq
> 
> Should i put more?
> It covered fully Z of ryzen
> 
> Thanks


 Looks like about pea size. That's a little more than I would use, but it should be fine. 

You might find info in link below about TIM application of interest:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/22335323-post10.html


----------



## ajx

Oh thanks by the way

You ve mentioned Scythe Ninja 5 above 

https://imgur.com/a/Dz9QGa4

I made some cable management but the cable almost touching heatsink, is it safe?

Also, should i lower fans? i need to raise them little higher because its touching ram and heatsink
I dont know if raising fans affect airflow efficiency?

Thanks


----------



## TeslaHUN

I will build a system soon ,and im wondering about best airflow possible . The case will be Fractal Focus G.
(something like this one : https://cdr.cz/sites/default/files/fracta-design-focus-13.jpg i will cut out the HDD box )

For intake i will be using 2x Alphacool Eiswind Pure Edition 140mm (its basicly a BeQuiet PureWings2, but 1400rpm max instead of normal 1000 rpm ) 
For exhaust i will use my Arctic P12 PST
CPU cooler will be Thermalright Macho rew A(B.W) with one TY 147A 
VGA is MSI GamingX 1080TI (yes I will remove all PCI covers )

I have some spare fans laying around ( 147A) , where to put them .

2option : 
-Top intake ,near the front , above the 5,25 area to feed extra cool air for Macho (this time positive pressure is 100% with 3x 140mm intake and 120mm exhaust)
-Top back exhaust ,abouve the CPU cooler (not sure about pressure inside ( 2x 140mm behind filter intake / 1x140mm ulfiltered exhaust / 1x 120mm unfiltered exhaust)
I dont vant use any bottom fan, since Focus G has trash filter mount under ,impossible to take out without flipping upside down the whole chassis )
Thanks


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> I will build a system soon ,and im wondering about best airflow possible . The case will be Fractal Focus G.
> (something like this one : https://cdr.cz/sites/default/files/fracta-design-focus-13.jpg i will cut out the HDD box )
> 
> For intake i will be using 2x Alphacool Eiswind Pure Edition 140mm (its basicly a BeQuiet PureWings2, but 1400rpm max instead of normal 1000 rpm )
> For exhaust i will use my Arctic P12 PST
> CPU cooler will be Thermalright Macho rew A(B.W) with one TY 147A
> VGA is MSI GamingX 1080TI (yes I will remove all PCI covers )
> 
> I have some spare fans laying around ( 147A) , where to put them .
> 
> 2option :
> -Top intake ,near the front , above the 5,25 area to feed extra cool air for Macho (this time positive pressure is 100% with 3x 140mm intake and 120mm exhaust)
> -Top back exhaust ,abouve the CPU cooler (not sure about pressure inside ( 2x 140mm behind filter intake / 1x140mm ulfiltered exhaust / 1x 120mm unfiltered exhaust)
> I dont vant use any bottom fan, since Focus G has trash filter mount under ,impossible to take out without flipping upside down the whole chassis )
> Thanks


 Eiswind Pure Edition 140 only has 0.97mm H²O static pressure rating which is quite low. For compariosn your Arctic P12 has 2.2mm H²O, more than twice as much.

Can you use TY-147A fans for front intakes? They would be much better than Eiswind Pure Edition 140 are. You might be able to mount them round sides up and down in front. I have included images of cutting round side flat. You can see in image it's basically cut / file / sand the rounded sides down flat to be flush with round inner frame. so it will fit in. Other image is of open areas you need to block so air fans push into case has to flow through case, not leak back in front of fans. 

Your first fan setup is best. Top intakes hurt, not help case airflow.

Good! :thumb: You understand the value of removing PCIe slot covers! :specool:

With TY-147A as front intakes you won't need any exhaust fans. Oh! Might want to block bottom vents so air from intakes moves back and not down and out of case before it cools anything.


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> Eiswind Pure Edition 140 only has 0.97mm H²O static pressure rating which is quite low. For compariosn your Arctic P12 has 2.2mm H²O, more than twice as much.
> 
> Can you use TY-147A fans for front intakes? They would be much better than Eiswind Pure Edition 140 are. You might be able to mount them round sides up and down in front. I have included images of cutting round side flat. You can see in image it's basically cut / file / sand the rounded sides down flat to be flush with round inner frame. so it will fit in. Other image is of open areas you need to block so air fans push into case has to flow through case, not leak back in front of fans.
> 
> Your first fan setup is best. Top intakes hurt, not help case airflow.
> 
> Good! :thumb: You understand the value of removing PCIe slot covers! :specool:
> 
> With TY-147A as front intakes you won't need any exhaust fans. Oh! Might want to block bottom vents so air from intakes moves back and not down and out of case before it cools anything.


Thanks a lot , u even made a drawing to help  I appreciate it 
I will try to mount those TY 147 fans on front . 

Bottom vents will be open ,im planning to make a full length plexi PSU shroud ,to hide all cables and 2 SSD+ HDD but some airflow from front fans (i think half of the front 140mm fan will be under the cover) needed to cool them, and that air can escape on bottom vents . Similar to this : https://www.coldzero.eu/fractal-design-focus-g-psu-shroud-long


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Thanks a lot , u even made a drawing to help  I appreciate it
> I will try to mount those TY 147 fans on front .
> 
> Bottom vents will be open ,im planning to make a full length plexi PSU shroud ,to hide all cables and 2 SSD+ HDD but some airflow from front fans (i think half of the front 140mm fan will be under the cover) needed to cool them, and that air can escape on bottom vents . Similar to this : https://www.coldzero.eu/fractal-design-focus-g-psu-shroud-long


Sounds good. I would block the front half of bottom venting so the airflow from front fans pushes air back over/through HDD & SSDs then out bottom. SSD/HHD don't need but just a little airflow to stay safe.


----------



## N2Gaming

Free bump for the sub for when I'm ready to dig into a decent case for cooling my system.

I'll be using MSI MEG x570 Unify, Ryzen 3800x, EVGA 1080Ti FTW3 Gaming GPU, Gskill Ripjaws black 2x16gb kit, 

I'm building this system for Gaming "mostly Sim Racing" and am thinking I want to get a case that will fit under the seat in a Sim cockpit. I'm looking at several different cases and cpu coolers. ATM my thoughts are to use the Be Quiet Dark Rock Pro 4 or Noctua NH D-15 Chromax. I'm leaning more towards the D-15 because of the 140mm Fans vs the DRP4's 120mm fans.

Edit: Oops forgot to add the components are currently housed in an older Antec 900 case with 2 120mm front fans one 120mm rear and one 200mm on top. All on low settings to keep noise levels low.

Edit #2: This is one of the cases I am considering. Cooler Master HAF XB EVO

https://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Maste...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0PV9B8M77MBSWKV6NY8P


----------



## TeslaHUN

N2Gaming said:


> ATM my thoughts are to use the Be Quiet Dark Rock Pro 4 or Noctua NH D-15 Chromax. I'm leaning more towards the D-15 because of the 140mm Fans vs the DRP4's 120mm fans.


DRP 4 has one 145mm FAN and one 120mm
DRP4 has 7 hetpipe , D15 has only 6. So they can cool the same despite DRP has one smaller fan.


----------



## N2Gaming

So I have not looked at the specs of any coolers yet with regards to how tall each one is. But after installing the D15 I’m thinking the DRP4 will probably fit into tighter compartments a little easier based on how they use a smaller 120mm fan over the ram slots.

I installed the NH D-15 and I think something is not right. I am seeing temps upwards of almost 82C during colder season ambient temps while running P95


----------



## doyll

N2Gaming said:


> So I have not looked at the specs of any coolers yet with regards to how tall each one is. But after installing the D15 I’m thinking the DRP4 will probably fit into tighter compartments a little easier based on how they use a smaller 120mm fan over the ram slots.
> 
> I installed the NH D-15 and I think something is not right. I am seeing temps upwards of almost 82C during colder season ambient temps while running P95


Stop posting same thing in different threads!! :Snorkle::buttkick: This is all 'Air Cooling' forum and we don't need to read your problem multiple times!! :buttkick: 
You are correct, something is not right. What the cause is the unkown. But you didn't tell us what room temp is, or what idle temp versus load temp is, or how heavy a load you had on CPU when you saw 82c, or if you were gaming and GPU was also dumping heated air inside of case and heating CPU cooler intake air up, thus increasing CPU temp. 

You have been given links to how airflow works and how to setup case airflow. Those guides also show simple low-cost way to monitor air temp into cooler. If air into cooler is within a couple degrees of room then problem is most likely a bad TIM seat from on installing cooler properly.


----------



## N2Gaming

OMG chill man chill. I’ll stop posting in this thread then.


----------



## doyll

N2Gaming said:


> OMG chill man chill. I’ll stop posting in this thread then.


Don't tell me to chill!!! :Snorkle::buttkick: You are the one causing problems with your multiple posts in same forum! :buttkick: We can read it once and know what it says ... even if you can't. I know you copy/paste, so it's not like you are writing it over and over to memorize it. :Snorkle::helpingha

Good idea. :thumb:

Either post here OR post in your own thread. 

But you need to get your head straightened out and follow what others and myself keep telling you. If you aren't going to use the knowledge base we are offering you to figure out your problems members will get tired of trying to help and you well end up on your own.


----------



## deepor

N2Gaming said:


> So I have not looked at the specs of any coolers yet with regards to how tall each one is. But after installing the D15 I’m thinking the DRP4 will probably fit into tighter compartments a little easier based on how they use a smaller 120mm fan over the ram slots.
> 
> I installed the NH D-15 and I think something is not right. I am seeing temps upwards of almost 82C during colder season ambient temps while running P95



Is your PC one of the newer Ryzen? Those 80+°C you report sound suspiciously like the 85°C where it'll throttle its boost by default. Do you have PBO enabled? It will then always hit that 85°C limit in tasks like prime95 because it will always try to increase voltage while it's below that temperature. If you don't like this, then manually set up PBO to a limit where you end up with a temperature that you like. Use the "TDC" or "PPT" values for this. Those two will limit things for all-core tasks like prime95.

If you see 80+°C with default settings (meaning PBO is disabled), then you have problem. You should then do things like take off the cooler and check the thermal paste application etc.


----------



## ajx

I have question:
Case isnt that good for airflow overall (mine comes with both vented aluminium sides)
http://www.jonsbo.com/en/products/jixiangC5.html
I have same case, for the intake, this guy put fans inside bracket, i prefer to fix them outside
My question is, does this shape of this bracket (cross) can intefere with airflow?
Its perfectly aligned for 120mm
As you can see, its misaligned for 140 mm, should i pick 120 mm, i m worried about obstruction if i pick 140 mm
What do you think?
Thanks


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> I have question:
> Case isnt that good for airflow overall (mine comes with both vented aluminium sides)
> http://www.jonsbo.com/en/products/jixiangC5.html
> I have same case, for the intake, this guy put fans inside bracket, i prefer to fix them outside
> My question is, does this shape of this bracket (cross) can intefere with airflow?
> Its perfectly aligned for 120mm
> As you can see, its misaligned for 140 mm, should i pick 120 mm, i m worried about obstruction if i pick 140 mm
> What do you think?
> Thanks


Yes, anything in airflow area of fan effects airflow, even something as small as a fan cable. 



I can't see in images of case how much room is in front of fans when mounted on front side of mounting panel like in your image. Ideally we want at least 50-75mm open space in front of fan. More is even better but obviously our cases don't give us that option. I'm gussing it would be best to mount fans on motherboard side of panel .. and make sure you block / seal off all openings in panel not covered by fans so the air they push into motherboard compartment flows through and out of compartment. We don't want the air leaking back in front of fans because then it will just go in circles through fan, leak back in front and through fan again .. over and over and over.


----------



## ajx

Yes i fixed them on motherboard size, so better to pick 120mm since its perfectly aligned?


----------



## doyll

Looks like it should work fine. 2x 140mm fans flow about the same amount of air as 3x 120mm fans and are also a little quieter doing it. I think removing PCIe back slot covers would help front to back airflow around GPU. Is there a vent in bottom of case below vent in PSU shroud?


----------



## ajx

Yes i cant mount 1x 120 mm under or above PSU shroud


----------



## ajx

My plan is:

- Switch from Arctic P12 (not pleasant noise sound) to Silent Wings 3

1x 120 mm as exhaust on the rear

2x 140 mm as intake on the front or 2x 120mm

Silent Wings 3 has two variants, high speed and normal, same price, should i go for high speed?


----------



## ciarlatano

ajx said:


> My plan is:
> 
> - Switch from Arctic P12 (not pleasant noise sound) to Silent Wings 3


Well......this should trigger a PoohBear rant about the Arctic P12 being the best and quietest fan ever made. 



ajx said:


> 1x 120 mm as exhaust on the rear
> 
> 2x 140 mm as intake on the front or 2x 120mm
> 
> Silent Wings 3 has two variants, high speed and normal, same price, should i go for high speed?


It depends on what your floor is as far as normal fan speeds, and if you are going with PWM. If you are going to be controlling by PWM, the high speed version still has a low start up and run speed, so you can run at minimal speeds the same as with the standard version and still have the extra top end should you need it. I've never tested the voltage controlled version of the high speed, but have seen reports that it has a higher start up and minimum operating speed. So, that is really the choice you need to make. Ideally, the PWM High Speed would be the choice.


----------



## ajx

P12 are not that bad but still not the most silent, i can hear it in quiet environment
I have opened case, P12 are louder than my NF-A12 from NH-U12S
Not way louder but there is still a noticeable gap
For the bucks (it totally worth it), i dont want complain, however for a silent build, i cant recommend them 
By way, there is debate between 120 mm vs 140 mm, which one is quieter?
People tend to claim 140 mm will be quieter for same amount of airflow therefore less noise, lower RPM
In other hands, some people argue the fact 120 mm will be quieter at same level of RPM


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> My plan is:
> 
> - Switch from Arctic P12 (not pleasant noise sound) to Silent Wings 3
> 
> 1x 120 mm as exhaust on the rear
> 
> 2x 140 mm as intake on the front or 2x 120mm
> 
> Silent Wings 3 has two variants, high speed and normal, same price, should i go for high speed?


 What ciarlatano said. :thumb:
But I don't think your furry buddy reads my thread. 

No real difference between low speed and high speed performance except low speed model limits top speed and airflow to 1000rpm .. which is just barely fast enough. I normally setup fan curves so fans run 950-1150rpm when both CPU & GPU are at full load. Fans are basically inaudible up to about 1000-1100rpm when case is on floor under or by work station. On rare occasions, like if room is exceptionally warm in hot summer weather and filters are dirty fans might need to run 1200-1300rpm to keep system as cool as normal. So system becomes just audible under extreme conditions instead of running hotter with no way to keep temperatures down but stop running max load appications until weather cools off .. not my idea of good. I would rather hear the fans on those rare occasions than not be able to continue doing whatever I want.  

I would not bother with a rear exhaust fan. All they do is increase cost and noise with little to no improvement in cooling.
I generally use 140mm fans because 2x 140mm fans move about same amount of air as 3x 120mm fans of same design. Only time I use 120mm is if case fan mounts for 120mm fans significantly block airflow through 140mm fans and case owner does not want case modified (remove offending mounting tin) for optimise 140mm fan airflow.


ajx said:


> P12 are not that bad but still not the most silent, i can hear it in quiet environment
> I have opened case, P12 are louder than my NF-A12 from NH-U12S
> Not way louder but there is still a noticeable gap
> For the bucks (it totally worth it), i dont want complain, however for a silent build, i cant recommend them
> By way, there is debate between 120 mm vs 140 mm, which one is quieter?
> People tend to claim 140 mm will be quieter for same amount of airflow therefore less noise, lower RPM
> In other hands, some people argue the fact 120 mm will be quieter at same level of RPM


That's the key point! :thumb:
For what they cost they are very good, but if you can spend more there are several better fans available.
I am one of the many who don't just claim but have tested both 120mm and 140mm fans of same design and found 140mm are better. It take 3x 120mm fans of same design as 2x 140mm fans to supply similar amounts of air. 

2x [email protected] each are 38.01dB, that is 3.01dB louder than 1x fan at same noise level.
3x [email protected] each are 39.771dB, another 1.761dB louder than 2x fans @35dB each. 

So at same noise level 2x 140mm fans move way more air than 2x 120mm fans .. in fact even 3x 120mm [email protected] can't move as much air as 2x 140mm fans of same design at same noise level can.


----------



## ajx

Thanks

By the way, is it better to use pwm splitter fan for 2x fans?

My motherboard has many fan headers but i dont know if i can use for example m2_fan, i know cpu_opt its linked to cpu_fan (master)

(31/86)
https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/.../E15827_ROG_STRIX_X570-F_GAMING_UM_v2_WEB.pdf

Thanks


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> Thanks
> 
> By the way, is it better to use pwm splitter fan for 2x fans?
> 
> My motherboard has many fan headers but i dont know if i can use for example m2_fan, i know cpu_opt its linked to cpu_fan (master)
> 
> (31/86)
> https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/.../E15827_ROG_STRIX_X570-F_GAMING_UM_v2_WEB.pdf
> 
> Thanks


Really depends on how much power fans use. Most fans have low enough power demands to run 2 or 3 fans on one header, but some, like TY-143 pull too much power at startup run on fan header splitters. I say fan header splitter as one type of splittler. There are also many PWM splitter that use PSU power and PWM signal from fan header to control PWM fan speed. But if you hve the extra fan headers on mobo, use them. Your manual should tell you what each uses as it's temperature source. Often source can be set in Bios.


----------



## ajx

Thanks, i got SW3 120mm High-Speed (2200 RPM)
Unfortunately m.2_fan is related to m.2 temp source (cant go under 50%)
SW3 is damn silent


----------



## ciarlatano

ajx said:


> P12 are not that bad but still not the most silent, i can hear it in quiet environment
> I have opened case, P12 are louder than my NF-A12 from NH-U12S
> Not way louder but there is still a noticeable gap
> For the bucks (it totally worth it), i dont want complain, however for a silent build, i cant recommend them
> By way, there is debate between 120 mm vs 140 mm, which one is quieter?
> People tend to claim 140 mm will be quieter for same amount of airflow therefore less noise, lower RPM
> In other hands, some people argue the fact 120 mm will be quieter at same level of RPM


I was really just razzing another poster who recommends the P12 as the best fan ever made in essentially every thread here regardless of application, and goes into a total frenzy if anyone says any different. BTW, said poster is a close friend of @doyll. They are often found at the local pubs together knocking back a few pints, with @doyll trying to learn from his vast wealth of knowledge. 



ajx said:


> Thanks, i got SW3 120mm High-Speed (2200 RPM)
> Unfortunately m.2_fan is related to m.2 temp source (cant go under 50%)
> SW3 is damn silent


Glad the SW3 is working out. They have a really incredible sound profile, as you point out.


----------



## ajx

I tested both configurations (pain in the ass to dismount, mount fans again):
Here my thoughts:

- SW3 produce sightly less noise, not by much
When case was opened, i could get close to the fans, noise is coming from motor itself, similar noise to P12 but sightly less louder

- At very low RPM (15/20%, about 250/350 RPM), its inaudible even on quiet environment 

- At 700/800 RPM, its audible, keep mind my tower is sit on desk, nearly about 2 feet away from me

The bad things:

- Temperatures have increased by noticeable margin, while i got 40/45 degrees with Arctic P12, idle temps oftent hits 50 even more, 55
I think there are 4/5 degrees of difference

- For same temperatures idle, SW3 needs to run around 700/750 RPM while P12 only under 400 RPM

Huge difference

I dont know how to explain difference, maybe, P12 have better static pressure and it helps alot on my case (which has poor airflow)
Anyway, i will stick with P12 with lower RPM, its barely audible and temperatures are being acceptable


----------



## doyll

ajx said:


> I tested both configurations (pain in the ass to dismount, mount fans again):
> Here my thoughts:
> 
> - SW3 produce sightly less noise, not by much
> When case was opened, i could get close to the fans, noise is coming from motor itself, similar noise to P12 but sightly less louder
> 
> - At very low RPM (15/20%, about 250/350 RPM), its inaudible even on quiet environment
> 
> - At 700/800 RPM, its audible, keep mind my tower is sit on desk, nearly about 2 feet away from me
> 
> The bad things:
> 
> - Temperatures have increased by noticeable margin, while i got 40/45 degrees with Arctic P12, idle temps oftent hits 50 even more, 55
> I think there are 4/5 degrees of difference
> 
> - For same temperatures idle, SW3 needs to run around 700/750 RPM while P12 only under 400 RPM
> 
> Huge difference
> 
> I dont know how to explain difference, maybe, P12 have better static pressure and it helps alot on my case (which has poor airflow)
> Anyway, i will stick with P12 with lower RPM, its barely audible and temperatures are being acceptable


Thanks for the helpful review.:thumb:


----------



## ajx

Sorry, but i have tested it again: i have encounter an bug issue with bios, my Arctic chassis fan_2 (front intake x120mm) were struggling at 230 RPM
At 450 RPM with both running, noise have been increased

My bios gave me wrong results:

- At 450/500 RPM, SW3 120 mm High Speed are quieter, almost inaudible (previous post, i said Arctic P12 were barely audible, because of bugs, they were running at 230 RPM instead of 450/500 RPM)

My ears give sightly better noise level to SW3 at 450/500 RPM against 230 RPM from Arctic P12
At same RPM, there is no match, SW3 are quieter


I have fixed bug on bios, here my results with P12 at its true speed:

- 450 RPM/500 RPM, cpu (ryzen 3600) stays around 50 at idle, motherboard 45

- If i increase RPM, there is no real temp improvement

For SW3, i got 45-47, motherboard goes under 38

Overall, i am very happy with both of them, as silent enthusiast, SW3 worth it, it reduces noise level, its noticeable
I am very sensitive to noise, i think on dead silent environment you can still hear a slight noise coming from them
Otherwise, its being covered by environment noise 
As premium fan, it has an edge over Arctic P12 by 2/3 degrees
It has also more airflow when i put my hands between case and fans, i got more fresh air coming from SW3 than P12
It may explain those degrees of difference
If i wasn't focused on silent, i would rather advice someone to pick P12, they worth it for the value, SW3 are more toward silent enthusiasts! :thumb:

Sorry again to misinterpret my first feedback :thumbsdow


----------



## Shenhua

ajx said:


> Sorry, but i have tested it again: i have encounter an bug issue with bios, my Arctic chassis fan_2 (front intake x120mm) were struggling at 230 RPM
> 
> At 450 RPM with both running, noise have been increased
> 
> 
> 
> My bios gave me wrong results:
> 
> 
> 
> - At 450/500 RPM, SW3 120 mm High Speed are quieter, almost inaudible (previous post, i said Arctic P12 were barely audible, because of bugs, they were running at 230 RPM instead of 450/500 RPM)
> 
> 
> 
> My ears give sightly better noise level to SW3 at 450/500 RPM against 230 RPM from Arctic P12
> 
> At same RPM, there is no match, SW3 are quieter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have fixed bug on bios, here my results with P12 at its true speed:
> 
> 
> 
> - 450 RPM/500 RPM, cpu (ryzen 3600) stays around 50 at idle, motherboard 45
> 
> 
> 
> - If i increase RPM, there is no real temp improvement
> 
> 
> 
> For SW3, i got 45-47, motherboard goes under 38
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, i am very happy with both of them, as silent enthusiast, SW3 worth it, it reduces noise level, its noticeable
> 
> I am very sensitive to noise, i think on dead silent environment you can still hear a slight noise coming from them
> 
> Otherwise, its being covered by environment noise
> 
> As premium fan, it has an edge over Arctic P12 by 2/3 degrees
> 
> It has also more airflow when i put my hands between case and fans, i got more fresh air coming from SW3 than P12
> 
> It may explain those degrees of difference
> 
> If i wasn't focused on silent, i would rather advice someone to pick P12, they worth it for the value, SW3 are more toward silent enthusiasts! :thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry again to misinterpret my first feedback :thumbsdow


Your new findings sound about right and more in line with what we know.


----------



## ciarlatano

ajx said:


> Sorry, but i have tested it again: i have encounter an bug issue with bios, my Arctic chassis fan_2 (front intake x120mm) were struggling at 230 RPM
> At 450 RPM with both running, noise have been increased.....


That explains a lot. Your initial results seemed very unlikely, though not impossible.

The P12 is a very good budget fan, but, still a budget fan. For those with sensitive hearing, and/or those that want the best regardless of cost, they aren't going to be a top choice.


----------



## Gilles3000

Just to add to this, Jonsbo's stamped fan grills on nearly all their cases are freaking horrible in terms of airflow and noise. Have seen quite a few builds where people just cut them out.

Also have a Jonsbo UMX3 myself, and can confirm the bottom stamped grill is awfully noisy.


----------



## Elrick

Gilles3000 said:


> Just to add to this, Jonsbo's stamped fan grills on nearly all their cases are freaking horrible in terms of airflow and noise. Have seen quite a few builds where people just cut them out.



It's a prime requirement with ALL Jonsbo cases.

Shame how some businesses don't understand anything about designing cases for efficient air flow. It's like some bizarre mystical science, beyond their understanding :doh: .


----------



## ajx

Next time i would pick better case (like Fractal) but its hard to find one with good aesthetic and compact size (still ATX) :thumb:


----------



## Skylinestar

Best budget radiator fan goes to Scythe Kaze Flex? What say you?


----------



## Gilles3000

Elrick said:


> It's a prime requirement with ALL Jonsbo cases.
> 
> Shame how some businesses don't understand anything about designing cases for efficient air flow. It's like some bizarre mystical science, beyond their understanding :doh: .


They do seem to be improving tho, their latest U5 and A4 are actually quite decent airflow wise. Could still use some improvement, but not nearly as bad as their earlier cases.



Skylinestar said:


> Best budget radiator fan goes to Scythe Kaze Flex? What say you?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVPV9omPuyw


How do people keep finding this guy's videos, he has no decent testing methodology and his results are completely off from reviewers that do. He should stick to unboxing and showcasing, as his reviews are worthless.


----------



## ajx

I have little issue with my 3 SW3 plugged into 3 fan headers (chassis fan 1&2 and m.2 fan)
Reboot time takes little longer (around 10 sec more) while there is no such thing with Arctic P12 (they can be chained due to their own cable that has already splitter)
When i do reboot, screen goes off, GPU fan start spinning at 100% (same for booting) and i think one of my SW3 doing same
No problem for booting, its almost same speed
I am wondering if its because of m.2 fan connector, maybe motherboard check all fans before rebooting?
I have an Asus Strix x570 F-Gaming

Thanks


----------



## ciarlatano

Skylinestar said:


> Best budget radiator fan goes to Scythe Kaze Flex? What say you?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVPV9omPuyw


I say you should immediately discount any tests done by this clown, and probably not post any of his videos. They get ripped apart every time with good reason. His findings are always absolute anomalies that certainly seem like he just makes up numbers as he goes along, his testing methods are ridiculous and he has zero credibility.

As for the Kaze Flex....marginal fans with a really nasty sound signature. The Arctic P Series are a far better budget fan.


----------



## doyll

Skylinestar said:


> Best budget radiator fan goes to Scythe Kaze Flex? What say you?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVPV9omPuyw


Your talkingn head's testing is totally bogus .. as has been said by many who have wasted time on his videos.




Gilles3000 said:


> How do people keep finding this guy's videos, he has no decent testing methodology and his results are completely off from reviewers that do. He should stick to unboxing and showcasing, as his reviews are worthless.


What Gilles said. 

That talking head has a nice voice so maybe he should do audiobooks.


----------



## ciarlatano

ajx said:


> I have little issue with my 3 SW3 plugged into 3 fan headers (chassis fan 1&2 and m.2 fan)
> Reboot time takes little longer (around 10 sec more) while there is no such thing with Arctic P12 (they can be chained due to their own cable that has already splitter)
> When i do reboot, screen goes off, GPU fan start spinning at 100% (same for booting) and i think one of my SW3 doing same
> No problem for booting, its almost same speed
> I am wondering if its because of m.2 fan connector, maybe motherboard check all fans before rebooting?
> I have an Asus Strix x570 F-Gaming
> 
> Thanks


Somewhere in the BIOS, there is a switch to ignore fan issues at startup. The ASUS boards exhibit this behavior with a number of fans (and PWM pumps) and flipping that switch solves the issue. It may be in the Boot Menu, may be in the Q-Fan Menu (did you do the Q-Fan Tuning yet?).


----------



## Melcar

Big fan of Scythe stuff. I have not used the new Kaze Flex fans yet, but been meaning to. They don't seem to be cheap compared to the competition (maybe in Europe?). I remember PerformancePCs used to have the 120mm ones listed for like $10 and the round frame 140mm for $13. A few weeks latter they added $5 to the listings. Bummer.


----------



## JackCY

Gilles3000 said:


> How do people keep finding this guy's videos, he has no decent testing methodology and his results are completely off from reviewers that do. He should stick to unboxing and showcasing, as his reviews are worthless.


Might the first time I see that channel. I wouldn't be so harsh but I did not like it also for multiple reasons of how the testing is done and what results are concluded from the data shown.

Also the Noisblockers wobbled even in video like crazy. Who would want that in their case.


----------



## David Verdeyen

I've never seen this guys videos but glad to know to disregard them.


----------



## ajx

doyll said:


> Looks like it should work fine. 2x 140mm fans flow about the same amount of air as 3x 120mm fans and are also a little quieter doing it. I think removing PCIe back slot covers would help front to back airflow around GPU. *Is there a vent in bottom of case below vent in PSU shroud?*


Wondering if it could help to add a fan above PSU shroud (i can fix from below as well)?
I am thinking it may disturb my two front intake fans


----------



## ajx

ciarlatano said:


> Somewhere in the BIOS, there is a switch to ignore fan issues at startup. The ASUS boards exhibit this behavior with a number of fans (and PWM pumps) and flipping that switch solves the issue. It may be in the Boot Menu, may be in the Q-Fan Menu (did you do the Q-Fan Tuning yet?).


I didn't find anything in the bios
I actually removed physically second fan (m.2_fan) and see if there is still slow restart, its still happening


----------



## ciarlatano

ajx said:


> I didn't find anything in the bios
> I actually removed physically second fan (m.2_fan) and see if there is still slow restart, its still happening


This thread on the ASUS board may help you find it - https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?12057-CPU-Fan-Error


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> This thread on the ASUS board may help you find it - https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?12057-CPU-Fan-Error


Good reference! :thumb:


----------



## FranZe

ajx said:


> Next time i would pick better case (like Fractal) but its hard to find one with good aesthetic and compact size (still ATX) :thumb:


Have first to admit that the aesthetic is not that impotant to me (not number one on the list). But is Fractal Define C that bad? I did pick that one because of good airflow, and its more quiet than other cases out there. But i'm not that fan of window's versions so i went for the one without  Define C gives me better airflow than Meshify C, when/if i need it. It's not that pretty inside, if you cant handle it so....Close your eyes? But this is the best case i ever had.


----------



## doyll

Phanteks make good cases, easily as good as Fractal Design.


----------



## ajx

FranZe said:


> Have first to admit that the aesthetic is not that impotant to me (not number one on the list). But is Fractal Define C that bad? I did pick that one because of good airflow, and its more quiet than other cases out there. But i'm not that fan of window's versions so i went for the one without  Define C gives me better airflow than Meshify C, when/if i need it. It's not that pretty inside, if you cant handle it so....Close your eyes? But this is the best case i ever had.


My Jonsbo C5 looks pretty similar although i think Fractal Define C has better airflow
I hope in near future a similar case with better airflow without sacrificing aesthetic 
My priorities were compactness (i ve been lurked into SFF cases, C5 is huge improvement in comparison of these small cases) and aesthetic (like Fractal, NZXT, Jonsbo, Lian-Li TU150...)


----------



## FranZe

ajx said:


> My Jonsbo C5 looks pretty similar although i think Fractal Define C has better airflow


Yes it looks similar, and i also think Define C has a bit better airflow. But the airflow isnt a deal breaker for everyone, but for me it was the most important thing (something is wrong with my head, yeah, i know) But as i see, you arent that far behind 
it all depends on wishes and needs. And there are plenty of that out there. Picking the right case isnt that easy, before maybe it was but not anymore. Now i need to "study".


----------



## JDurden

ciarlatano said:


> I say you should immediately discount any tests done by this clown, and probably not post any of his videos. They get ripped apart every time with good reason. His findings are always absolute anomalies that certainly seem like he just makes up numbers as he goes along, his testing methods are ridiculous and he has zero credibility.
> 
> As for the Kaze Flex....marginal fans with a really nasty sound signature. The Arctic P Series are a far better budget fan.


Hello, Hardware Scientist here. Not sure how you're coming to these conclusions - I can assure you all of my results are 100% real and tested. Would be happy to answer any questions or concerns you have.


----------



## JDurden

Gilles3000 said:


> They do seem to be improving tho, their latest U5 and A4 are actually quite decent airflow wise. Could still use some improvement, but not nearly as bad as their earlier cases.
> 
> 
> How do people keep finding this guy's videos, he has no decent testing methodology and his results are completely off from reviewers that do. He should stick to unboxing and showcasing, as his reviews are worthless.


Hardware Scientist here. Can you explain what you don't like about the testing methodology? I have spent years creating cooling tests, so I'd like to think my tests are very accurate, but let me know what you think the issues are.


----------



## Elrick

doyll said:


> Phanteks make good cases, easily as good as Fractal Design.



PCCG is selling them here in Convict Town.

Have my greedy eye on this one;

https://www.pccasegear.com/products...evolv-x-drgb-tempered-glass-atx-galaxy-silver

BUT the front cover needs to be removed for better air flow, I won't do any Water-works on this case, it's purely for fans and cpu air cooler.

Only love this case for the Aluminium, super sexy to look at :thumb: .


----------



## doyll

JDurden said:


> Hello, Hardware Scientist here. Not sure how you're coming to these conclusions - I can assure you all of my results are 100% real and tested. Would be happy to answer any questions or concerns you have.


By comparing your results with other reviews of same products. 

What is air temp into cooler at time you record component temp and do you record it? Component temp means little without knowing what the temp of air it's using. 



JDurden said:


> Hardware Scientist here. Can you explain what you don't like about the testing methodology? I have spent years creating cooling tests, so I'd like to think my tests are very accurate, but let me know what you think the issues are.


Biggest thing is no written review and no detailed discription of test procedure. I can't be bothered watching videos and much prefer written procedure and results. Can't do that with videos. There is no way to quickly look at specific things and comparing them like can be done in written reviews/test results.

How about you post your test procedure here? Then we can read it and tell you what you are doing wrong.


----------



## hazium233

+1 on Methods. If you pick pretty much any scientific paper at random, you will find a section detailing the methods. This is so people can understand exactly how the data are generated, and reproduce the test and results.

A detailed description in the video may appeal to some, but probably most of the youtube audience will complain about length. A compromise would be to link a text version of methods in the video description.

***

Related to this topic, GamersNexus has a video and article on this topic: "Why Most Cooler Tests are Flawed: CPU Cooler Testing Methodology".

The article itself is largely about the problems they have run into trying to find consistency when testing. It lines up with a lot of what has been stated in this thread and other places on the topic.

One thing I recall reading (don't remember if it is in this thread or not) was regarding modern non-soldered Intel and how different baseplate shape could distort the heatspreader and skew subsequent testing on a specific chip. In GN's above article, one conclusion was to test all coolers on a single chip (not just same model), which may not be entirely valid if the previous point is true. Although it looks like GN might be moving to dummy heaters for more consistency, and the above states they will be discussed more in a later article.


----------



## JDurden

doyll said:


> By comparing your results with other reviews of same products.


The problem is most cooler reviews are not done well, like the Gamers Nexus article mentions. In fact that's why I started doing my own cooling tests - other reviewers just weren't doing them right.



doyll said:


> What is air temp into cooler at time you record component temp and do you record it? Component temp means little without knowing what the temp of air it's using.


Yes I record ambient temps and then adjust for changing ambient temps by normalizing all temps to 24C ambient.



doyll said:


> Biggest thing is no written review and no detailed discription of test procedure. I can't be bothered watching videos and much prefer written procedure and results. Can't do that with videos. There is no way to quickly look at specific things and comparing them like can be done in written reviews/test results.


Sorry I'm a YouTuber, I don't do written reviews  . My latest video has a full breakdown of the test procedure, and you can skip to the test procedure section or any section you'd like to view by using the timestamps in the pinned comment: 



 All new videos will also include a full section going over the test procedure.


----------



## doyll

JDurden said:


> The problem is most cooler reviews are not done well, like the Gamers Nexus article mentions. In fact that's why I started doing my own cooling tests - other reviewers just weren't doing them right.
> 
> 
> Yes I record ambient temps and then adjust for changing ambient temps by normalizing all temps to 24C ambient.
> 
> 
> Sorry I'm a YouTuber, I don't do written reviews  . My latest video has a full breakdown of the test procedure, and you can skip to the test procedure section or any section you'd like to view by using the timestamps in the pinned comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVPV9omPuyw All new videos will also include a full section going over the test procedure.


 Like I said, if you can't put it in writing I'm not interested and won't watch it. 

There are good reasons for written test procedures and results. If you already have all the data in your video it wouldn't take but a few minutes to write it up. Only time consumng part is doing first one, then just change subject of test, charts/graphs, and maybe a quick summary in additional reviews. 

'Adjust for changing ambients' is just plain wrong!! Why not just do it right log and post both intake air temp and component temp and use delta temp? You know, just subtract the intake air temp from your reading. There is no reason for me to listen to your test procedure. Your results being so far off the norms is all the proof I need to know your doing something very wrong.


----------



## JDurden

doyll said:


> 'Adjust for changing ambients' is just plain wrong!! Why not just do it right log and post both intake air temp and component temp and use delta temp? You know, just subtract the intake air temp from your reading.


That's wrong, delta temp is the same thing. I normalize temps because it makes it easier to understand.



doyll said:


> There is no reason for me to listen to your test procedure.


You accuse me of being fake, and then you refuse to even watch my test procedure. Sounds like you are the one with a problem.


----------



## Shenhua

JDurden said:


> You accuse me of being fake, and then you refuse to even watch my test procedure. Sounds like you are the one with a problem.


Nobody acuses you of being fake. Testing air cooling is one of the hardest things to do, and there's no way you can keep track and test for all factors. Even GN is not doing it, and i dont think nobody holds you accountable to GN standards either.

That being said, your results are horse**** because there's many important variables that you don't keep track off. So you end up with an arctic 34, and a 212 having same cooling capacity or better with a TS140P, mugen 5 rev.b.
But you keep track of others subjective ones trying to be objective, which makes matters even worse. Because everyone who understands air cooling, will look at you like Dumb and Dumber.


----------



## doyll

JDurden said:


> That's wrong, delta temp is the same thing. I normalize temps because it makes it easier to understand.
> 
> 
> You accuse me of being fake, and then you refuse to even watch my test procedure. Sounds like you are the one with a problem.


 What Shenhua said. :thumb:
I only said I'm not wasting time trying to figure out why your results are so out of wack based only on your videos. 

TRUE Spirit 140 Power is one of the very best cooling coolers out there, way better than 212 and Arctic 34. So your publishing results with them being way better clearly proves your testing is extremely inaccurate.

If you can't take testing/reviewing seriously enough to take the few minutes needed to write synopsis of your procedures and results in text form, why should I bother watching your videos? All that would do is increase our viewing number, and that's the last thing I want to do. 

Like I said, write up your procedures so we can read and analyze them and maybe we can help you figure out where the problems are. But if you won't bother to spend a few minutes doing that why should we do any more than we have?


----------



## ciarlatano

Shenhua said:


> Nobody acuses you of being fake. Testing air cooling is one of the hardest things to do, and there's no way you can keep track and test for all factors. Even GN is not doing it, and i dont think nobody holds you accountable to GN standards either.
> 
> That being said, your results are horse**** because there's many important variables that you don't keep track off. So you end up with an arctic 34, and a 212 having same cooling capacity or better with a TS140P, mugen 5 rev.b.
> But you keep track of others subjective ones trying to be objective, which makes matters even worse. Because everyone who understands air cooling, will look at you like Dumb and Dumber.


And Dumberer.....

Thanks, you really summed it up perfectly.


----------



## ralphi59

Hi doyll hi all.

Can you help me with the fan setup for an old king 

The Enermax Fulmo GT !!

He has a mesh side panel, so the airflow is pretty unique !!

I have 3 ml 140 rgb

Thank s in advance


----------



## TeslaHUN

ralphi59 said:


> Hi doyll hi all.
> 
> Can you help me with the fan setup for an old king
> 
> The Enermax Fulmo GT !!
> 
> He has a mesh side panel, so the airflow is pretty unique !!
> 
> I have 3 ml 140 rgb
> 
> Thank s in advance


If it would be my setup, I would just use 2x 18cm intake fan on side panel. It has fine mesh , so it acts like a dust filter anway. Top /rear 1-1 exhaust if u want ,but i dont think u could see lower temps even without any exhaust ,since u have mesh on top and rear.
Since font is restrictive as hell (metal mesh>filter > fan > metal grill (why Enermax why ....) > not removable HDD bays I wouldnt put any fan there , it wont flow any air inside .


----------



## ralphi59

Hi

Thank you.

I have drill out the hdd cage and front grill !!!

I love my dremel !!

The 18cm stock fan sound not good 
He has a buzz sound.

With this précisions, any advice man ?

Sorry for my french english !!!


----------



## doyll

ralphi59 said:


> Hi doyll hi all.
> 
> Can you help me with the fan setup for an old king
> 
> The Enermax Fulmo GT !!
> 
> He has a mesh side panel, so the airflow is pretty unique !!
> 
> I have 3 ml 140 rgb
> 
> Thank s in advance


 I haven't used Fulmo GT. but what TeslaHUN said looks to be about the best setup. I looked at Enermax website and it's not clear. What fans does it come with? If it has 2x of their 180mm fans I would use them as side intakes and remove all rear PCIe slot covers to increase exhaust vent area around GPU and hopefully flow GPU heated exhaust back and out of case. Guide to how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow linked below might be helpful, especially the simple, low-cost remote sensor thermometer to monitor air temp into coolers. 

https://www.overclock.net/forum/22319249-post5.html


----------



## imajescape

any thoughts on the noctua's NF-A12x15? i know it's worse than the x25 version , but how do it compares with the silent wings 3 120mm in terma of performance at the same dB?


----------



## Gilles3000

imajescape said:


> any thoughts on the noctua's NF-A12x15? i know it's worse than the x25 version , but how do it compares with the silent wings 3 120mm in terma of performance at the same dB?


The SW3's are 25mm fans so they're not even in the same ballpark?

Only use 15mm fans if you have no other choice.


----------



## imajescape

Gilles3000 said:


> The SW3's are 25mm fans so they're not even in the same ballpark?
> 
> Only use 15mm fans if you have no other choice.


so you're telling me that any x25 fan beats an x15?


----------



## Shenhua

imajescape said:


> so you're telling me that any x25 fan beats an x15?


Probably any decent fan, but sw3 is not any fan. It's at the very top.


----------



## Owterspace

I wouldn’t call a 60cfm fan at the top of the range..


----------



## doyll

imajescape said:


> any thoughts on the noctua's NF-A12x15? i know it's worse than the x25 version , but how do it compares with the silent wings 3 120mm in terma of performance at the same dB?


As others have said, Silent Wings 3 are better than NF-A12x15. Thickness makes a huge difference, but I believe SW3 120mm are better than NF-A12x25 as well.


----------



## Gilles3000

imajescape said:


> so you're telling me that any x25 fan beats an x15?


Pretty much, yes.



Owterspace said:


> I wouldn’t call a 60cfm fan at the top of the range..


I mean it is top of the range in terms of performance to noise ratio. And the high speed versions realistically move enough air for most setups. I personally wouldn't want to even run them above 1800rpm-ish, gets too noisy for me. 

Not everyone's into having 3000rpm fans blasting away on top of their desk.


----------



## imajescape

are these results legit? https://ibb.co/SBHqC2c
scythe slipstream 120db got excelent results for what is costs.
also p12 redux and s12a got similar results when cfm measured throught the dust filter with slight edge to s12a . all this when noctua states that p12 redux is more optimized for pressure and s12a for airflow



doyll said:


> As others have said, Silent Wings 3 are better than NF-A12x15. Thickness makes a huge difference, but I believe SW3 120mm are better than NF-A12x25 as well.


so according to you sw3 are the best avaialable fans out there considering the performance they offer in regard to noise?


----------



## doyll

What Gilles3000 said about 15mm vs 25mm thickness is pretty much it. There may be some that are better but I don't know of any. 



imajescape said:


> are these results legit? https://ibb.co/SBHqC2c
> scythe slipstream 120db got excelent results for what is costs.
> also p12 redux and s12a got similar results when cfm measured throught the dust filter with slight edge to s12a . all this when noctua states that p12 redux is more optimized for pressure and s12a for airflow
> 
> so according to you sw3 are the best avaialable fans out there considering the performance they offer in regard to noise?


Without knowing test procedure there is not way to say if resuts are legit.


----------



## Shenhua

Owterspace said:


> I wouldn’t call a 60cfm fan at the top of the range..


Every1 has his own standards. I don't consider delta 38mm vacuum cleaner thick fans low noise.

Noise/performance ratio is as good as it gets along with 3-4 other fans in the 120x25 bracket (it has one of the best noise marks, so that's why is at the very top, not the top, untill you go past 1200rpm and nf a12x25 cream's all of them, but it costs about 50% more, and above 1200rpm it's pretty high anyway, for a case fan, for the avg Joe again, not for some1 who runs case without mesh front panel, cus it's "obstructive".


----------



## imajescape

doyll said:


> What Gilles3000 said about 15mm vs 25mm thickness is pretty much it. There may be some that are better but I don't know of any.
> 
> 
> Without knowing test procedure there is not way to say if resuts are legit.


https://www.overclockers.com/noctua-nf-p12-redux-fan-review/


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> Every1 has his own standards. I don't consider delta 38mm vacuum cleaner thick fans low noise.
> 
> Noise/performance ratio is as good as it gets along with 3-4 other fans in the 120x25 bracket (it has one of the best noise marks, so that's why is at the very top, not the top, untill you go past 1200rpm and nf a12x25 cream's all of them, but it costs about 50% more, and above 1200rpm it's pretty high anyway, for a case fan, for the avg Joe again, not for some1 who runs case without mesh front panel, cus it's "obstructive".


But how much air will they move through the resistance of grill and filter or a radiator? Fan pressure an airflow ratings (and noise too) are not in operational situations even remotely like we use them in our cases, on cooler or radiators. Static pressure rating is how much pressure fan can make (at full speed in a sealed container. Not how we use them.
Airflow is how much air they can move with 0 resistance .. no grill, no filter, nothing. Again, not how we use them.
Noise level also with no resistance .. and resistance increases noise. Still again not how we use them.​Also, there is also no real establish standard of testing that all fans companies use. Some actually draw the air away from exhaust side of fan so the fan has doesn't even have the airflow resistance impeller creates on it's exhaust side in normal use .. means results show more airflow than fan can make on it's on. End result is if one companies fans are tested by another company, the results can easily be different.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> But how much air will they move through the resistance of grill and filter or a radiator? Fan pressure an airflow ratings (and noise too) are not in operational situations even remotely like we use them in our cases, on cooler or radiators. Static pressure rating is how much pressure fan can make (at full speed in a sealed container. Not how we use them.
> Airflow is how much air they can move with 0 resistance .. no grill, no filter, nothing. Again, not how we use them.
> Noise level also with no resistance .. and resistance increases noise. Still again not how we use them.​Also, there is also no real establish standard of testing that all fans companies use. Some actually draw the air away from exhaust side of fan so the fan has doesn't even have the airflow resistance impeller creates on it's exhaust side in normal use .. means results show more airflow than fan can make on it's on. End result is if one companies fans are tested by another company, the results can easily be different.


That's why idc at all about the stats posted by manufacturers.


----------



## 8051

doyll said:


> Also, there is also no real establish standard of testing that all fans companies use. Some actually draw the air away from exhaust side of fan so the fan has doesn't even have the airflow resistance impeller creates on it's exhaust side in normal use .. means results show more airflow than fan can make on it's on. End result is if one companies fans are tested by another company, the results can easily be different.


There are standards for fan testing:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/001/amca.210.1999.pdf

and ISO standards:

https://standards.globalspec.com/topics/fan-testing-standards

Delta and SanAce publish their methods for arriving at their published specifications, and their methods seem to comply w/the ISO standards.


----------



## Melcar

imajescape said:


> https://www.overclockers.com/noctua-nf-p12-redux-fan-review/



overclockers.com is pretty legit I would say :thumb:

I have a bunch of those old Slip Stream fans (got a whole bunch of the high speed PWM models from PerformancePCs a few years back for like $2 a piece). They are rather good fans at the 1000-1300rpm range. No problems blasting through double filters and heatsinks.


----------



## doyll

8051 said:


> There are standards for fan testing:
> 
> https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/001/amca.210.1999.pdf
> 
> and ISO standards:
> 
> https://standards.globalspec.com/topics/fan-testing-standards
> 
> Delta and SanAce publish their methods for arriving at their published specifications, and their methods seem to comply w/the ISO standards.


Yes, technically there are standards, which Delta, SanAce and other reputable industrial fan companies use. But often computer fans are not tested to these standards. Noctua rep pointed out how companies reduced pressure on outlet side of fan to be same as inlet side to get better results. Something not possible in actual use, but can be done in controlled pressure test chambers of airflow test equipment. Fans in normal use have lower pressure on intake side drawing air in and higher pressure on outlet side pushing air away .. definitely not ISO standard.


----------



## Owterspace

You don't have to run them at 12v, you can run them at 5v, or 7v, or anywhere in between if you have a good controller. My fans are quiet until I turn them up to bench. you don't need 110cfm+ for most things, but if you like to overclock (like the name of this website) and benchmark, you are going to want to move some air, especially in the summer. I don't have to turn my overclocks down for the summer heat, I just cant run linpack xtreme at max clocks in the summer.


----------



## Shenhua

Shenhua said:


> Every1 has his own standards. I don't consider delta 38mm vacuum cleaner thick fans low noise.


I think you guys misunderstood me. I was referring to the tolerance to noise, needs and wishes of a person. We don't all coincide with everything, as a response to owterspace sarcasm.

Owterspace it's an exception, but he seems to think he is the norm. Even I'm not the norm, since I'm very keen on not running case fans past 850rpm since they start to be.... not noisy by any mean..... but audible, without focusing your attention to them.

Also i found out that with a massive intake like a full mesh frontal with every millimeter filled with fans, tends to start showing up diminishing returns after 1100-1200rpm (it's probably different for delta 38mm fans as their static pressure it's much higher). Even for prime95 I'm not running case fans very much past 1000rpm.


----------



## doyll

What Owterspace said about running at lower speeds, but I use PWM so power is 12v pulses not lower voltage. The advantage of PWM is no heat buildup that comes with lowering voltage. 

What Shenhua said about fan speed and noise. Even when CPU is at 100% fans are at 1100-1200rpm, maybe a little faster in hot summer weather with dirty filters.


----------



## Owterspace

I've got a bunch of those old blue led coolermaster fans that came with an old stacker, probably from about 2006. You know the kind, not very strong, but pretty blue lights that my boys love. I've got seven of them in my quiet R4. I have 5x 120x38s and a TY147 as case fans on my Meshify. My Meshify is quieter than my R4, and moves a lot more air at the same time. That's with my fans at 7v.

I don't think I am the norm. Well, to me I am, its you guys who aren't 

Brute force works best 

If you make an argument about dust, I will tell you to go buy a datavac, or a can of compressed gas.

Edit:

I would use PWM if it were an option, but my fans are about 15 years old now, so not an option.


----------



## doyll

Owterspace said:


> .............
> 
> I would use PWM if it were an option, but my fans are about 15 years old now, so not an option.


 I've seen simple PWM control systems on ebay, like one below.


> Description:
> The 1203BB DC Motor Speed Regulator controls the speed of a DC motor by adjusting Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM). It provides a continuous current of 3A to your DC motor or other DC load. Besides, the circuit also include a 3A fuse. with revese connection of power supply and control the forward or reverse direction and the stop of DC motor by switch.











*https://tinyurl.com/r5dwpm2*


They have others with higher amp ratings like 8A link below
*https://tinyurl.com/qmq2abt*


----------



## Owterspace

Thanks for that, learn something new everyday still applies 

The price is right, I might have to try one out.


----------



## speed_demon

This is still my favorite thread on the whole board. Have referenced back to this many times even in the past few months as there always seems to be some little question I run into that's already been answered here. 

Also apologies for @'ing you doyll, I just feel like you are super knowledgeable and if I was to try and provide an answer myself I'd only further confuse things. Very much a learner on all this PC airflow & improving cooling type stuff.


----------



## doyll

speed_demon said:


> This is still my favorite thread on the whole board. Have referenced back to this many times even in the past few months as there always seems to be some little question I run into that's already been answered here.
> 
> Also apologies for @'ing you doyll, I just feel like you are super knowledgeable and if I was to try and provide an answer myself I'd only further confuse things. Very much a learner on all this PC airflow & improving cooling type stuff.


Glad it's been useful. No problem @'ing me. Helps me know when people want something. :thumb:


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Glad it's been useful. No problem @'ing me. Helps me know when people want something. :thumb:


 @doyll - I want a cafe au lait. No sugar.


----------



## speed_demon

@ciarlatano - You are too lait for that. He closed up shop, government orders.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> @*doyll* - I want a cafe au lait. No sugar.



What speed_demon said. :thumb:


Cornovirus incidents here are rapidly increasing last few days. I'm not normally paranoid but am with this. Stay safe!!


----------



## Elrick

doyll said:


> Cornovirus incidents here are rapidly increasing last few days. I'm not normally paranoid but am with this. Stay safe!!



As long as you are with your family and everyone is accounted for, then this will pass eventually.

We're all waiting for the vaccine here so counting down the months till we finally get something, other than COVID-19.


----------



## Ricardinho55

*very nice doc!*

Thks! any sugestion? normal temp inside 17 at 21C (all fan Master cooler), but i have 1 issue: intake 2 x 120 (side or front? in my case i cant put front?) 1 180mm exaust rear + 2 top 240mm, inside 3 for better circulation and cooler the gpu (with custom home made fans!)
what you think for better choise? thk.

ps. cpu x5650 at 4.2 OC with cooler master v8 gts max temp 50C normal 30C


----------



## doyll

Ricardinho55 said:


> Thks!


Glad you like it. Not perfect, so if you see something that needs to be better please let me know.


----------



## Gilles3000

So here's something peculiar Matt @ DIY Perks came up with, a quiet bellows system as an alternative for fans.






Doesn't look particularly practical, but its quite visually interesting does seem to somewhat work.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> So here's something peculiar Matt @ DIY Perks came up with, a quiet bellows system as an alternative for fans.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Y7DHfoFOk
> 
> Doesn't look particularly practical, but its quite visually interesting does seem to somewhat work.


Thanks for posting that!

Matt does interesting projects. I rarely watch youtube but do like many of his. Have you seen his super quiet computer system with 120mm fan tower CPU cooler on GPU? He did that about 5 years ago. Also did a very nice rope and wood passive cooling system with 2x NH-D15s' plus some custom fit heatpipes.


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> Thanks for posting that!
> 
> Matt does interesting projects. I rarely watch youtube but do like many of his. Have you seen his super quiet computer system with 120mm fan tower CPU cooler on GPU? He did that about 5 years ago. Also did a very nice rope and wood passive cooling system with 2x NH-D15s' plus some custom fit heatpipes.


Yep, I think the first video I ever saw of his was the CPU cooler on GPU one, been following his channel ever since. Lined up pretty well with hen I really started getting into building PC's.

I also like that he shows you can make pretty cool stuff with relatively simple tools and a small budget(not this latest bellows system tho  ). Its a pretty decent confidence booster when you're looking to get started on a project.


----------



## Ricardinho55

Hello, i rebuild the chase and i put the side fans on front, i get lower 2C ! now inside i have 13C max 17C ! thks


----------



## doyll

Ricardinho55 said:


> Hello, i rebuild the chase and i put the side fans on front, i get lower 2C ! now inside i have 13C max 17C ! thks


What is temp in room at time you see 13c and 17c inside of chase? I assume room is quite cold if you have 13c and 17c inside of case.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> What is temp in room at time you see 13c and 17c inside of chase? I assume room is quite cold if you have 13c and 17c inside of case.


You could almost keep your items marked "refrigerate after opening" in there...... Maybe the PC is in a walk in refrigerator?


----------



## Ricardinho55

cool and cold ! tks!


----------



## Ricardinho55

office at 22C


----------



## doyll

Ricardinho55 said:


> office at 22C


Sorry, but if office / room is 22c then there is no way the inside of computer case can be any cooler. Inside of case has to be at least 22c and normally air into coolers when system is working is 2-6c warmer than room so 22c room is 24-28c inside of case into coolers. 13-17c. Room temp is lowest temp possible.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Sorry, but if office / room is 22c then there is no way the inside of computer case can be any cooler. Inside of case has to be at least 22c and normally air into coolers when system is working is 2-6c warmer than room so 22c room is 24-28c inside of case into coolers. 13-17c. Room temp is lowest temp possible.


Exactly. Airflow alone does not cool air. If you have 22C air, putting it through a fan doesn't make said air cooler. It _appears_ cooler to humans since moving air evaporates moisture on the skin, giving a cooling sensation....but again, this is only a _perception_, and the air is not actually cooler - https://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/climate-weather/atmospheric/question70.htm

In other words, @Ricardinho55 , if you are getting 17C readings inside of a case located in a room that is 22C, this is not an indication that your case is cooler. This is an indicator that your thermometer is broken.


----------



## Ricardinho55

but what does it matter, the important thing is the indoor temperature! say great things! 
more fans = better air circulation with good pression inside, i think but i dont undestund this discution! 
TKS


----------



## doyll

Ricardinho55 said:


> but what does it matter, the important thing is the indoor temperature! say great things!
> more fans = better air circulation with good pression inside, i think but i dont undestund this discution!
> TKS


It's good your temps are lower after changing fans. The point is air temp inside of case cannot physically be lower than room temperature. So if your thermometer inside of cae is reading 15c, 17c and room is 22c, the thermometer in case is defective and there is no way of knowing what the actual temperature in case is so we don't know how much if any change in temperature there is.


----------



## Ricardinho55

mybe the temp outsider is lower, i dont no but my office is cold. tks


----------



## Gilles3000

Just found something interesting, an all black or white Gentle Typhoon knockoff that comes in both 120 and 140mm sizes with a FDB bearing instead of DBB. Just €3,5-4 a pop.









https://www.superbuy.com/en/page/bu...pm=a261b.12436309.ul20190116.3.56146b10AwlQ30

Would cost approx. €35 to get 4 of them to Belgium, tempting.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Just found something interesting, an all black or white Gentle Typhoon knockoff that comes in both 120 and 140mm sizes with a FDB bearing instead of DBB. Just €3,5-4 a pop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.superbuy.com/en/page/bu...pm=a261b.12436309.ul20190116.3.56146b10AwlQ30
> 
> Would cost approx. €35 to get 4 of them to Belgium, tempting.


 Interesting.

I would be more interested if they gave more specs than just size and rpm. At least give us power rating, PWM or DC speed control, speed range, airflow and static pressure. 

If you get some could you do some reasonably accurate testing? I mean do you have enough equipment and other good fans to run some good comparison testing and/or equipment to measure airflow and noise level.


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I would be more interested if they gave more specs than just size and rpm. At least give us power rating, PWM or DC speed control, speed range, airflow and static pressure.


Found some:
- Dimensions : 140 x 140 x 25 mm
- Speed : 600-2000 RPM
- Rated Voltage: 12v DC - 0.25A
- Connector : 4-pin PWM Header
- Bearing : Fluid Dynamic Bearing
- Max Air Flow : 79-108 CFM
- Noise : 29-39 dbA
- Cable : 300mm



> If you get some could you do some reasonably accurate testing? I mean do you have enough equipment and other good fans to run some good comparison testing and/or equipment to measure airflow and noise level.


No chance, I basically have none of the above.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Found some:
> - Dimensions : 140 x 140 x 25 mm
> - Speed : 600-2000 RPM
> - Rated Voltage: 12v DC - 0.25A
> - Connector : 4-pin PWM Header
> - Bearing : Fluid Dynamic Bearing
> - Max Air Flow : 79-108 CFM
> - Noise : 29-39 dbA
> - Cable : 300mm
> 
> No chance, I basically have none of the above.


 That helps a little. Too bad they don't give us static pressure rating. As you know, airflow rating isn't as helpful as pressure rating. 

If you get any, could you maybe test them by comparing CPU temps with other fans you have? All you would need to be sure CPU temp is accurate is to monitor and record air temp into cool fan at same temp you record CPU temp. That way we eliminate that variable .. which is biggest unrecorded / reported variable in most cooler testing.


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> That helps a little. Too bad they don't give us static pressure rating. As you know, airflow rating isn't as helpful as pressure rating.
> 
> If you get any, could you maybe test them by comparing CPU temps with other fans you have? All you would need to be sure CPU temp is accurate is to monitor and record air temp into cool fan at same temp you record CPU temp. That way we eliminate that variable .. which is biggest unrecorded / reported variable in most cooler testing.


I could ghetto rig it onto my macho rev.b and run it outside of the case(my current case isn't really suitable), and do some RPM normalized testing, with intake/cpu temp delta results. 

And maybe a sound recording with the delta temps normalized?

Wouldn't be the most scientific thing to do, but I might give it a shot anyway. That is if I can actually get them here, would be my first time ordering china domestic stuff through an agent. 

Would be a good trial to test out the the waters on buying stuff directly from china tho, there are some really cool boutique SFF cases out there that look way better than what's available in the west atm.
Something like this would be pretty sweet:https://www.chiphell.com/thread-2007663-1-1.html


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> I could ghetto rig it onto my macho rev.b and run it outside of the case(my current case isn't really suitable), and do some RPM normalized testing, with intake/cpu temp delta results.
> 
> And maybe a sound recording with the delta temps normalized?
> 
> Wouldn't be the most scientific thing to do, but I might give it a shot anyway. That is if I can actually get them here, would be my first time ordering china domestic stuff through an agent.
> 
> Would be a good trial to test out the the waters on buying stuff directly from china tho, there are some really cool boutique SFF cases out there that look way better than what's available in the west atm.
> Something like this would be pretty sweet:https://www.chiphell.com/thread-2007663-1-1.html


I really like that aluminum CNC case! :thumb:


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> I really like that aluminum CNC case! :thumb:


Its pretty crazy what you can get for relatively little money over there. Iirc that one goes for about €150, absolute steal when you compare it to something like the Fractal Design ERA.

In other news, had to unmount my cooler today to do a PSU swap. Turns out I went a little light on the TIM, dropped about 3-4 degrees, not bad.

Always check your spread people, its worth it. :2cents:


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Its pretty crazy what you can get for relatively little money over there. Iirc that one goes for about €150, absolute steal when you compare it to something like the Fractal Design ERA.
> 
> In other news, had to unmount my cooler today to do a PSU swap. Turns out I went a little light on the TIM, dropped about 3-4 degrees, not bad.
> 
> Always check your spread people, its worth it. :2cents:


 Indeed. CNC work is very low priced over there. MNPCTech does some really nice custom CLC cases. Below link is to one Bill's custom CNC cases


----------



## Gilles3000

doyll said:


> Indeed. CNC work is very low priced over there. MNPCTech does some really nice custom CNC cases. Below link is to one Bill's custom CNC cases
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oroPuoQntgA


Damn, that curved billet panel is ridiculously cool. Can't say the finished product is entirely to my taste, but I can definitely appreciate it.


----------



## Owterspace

Almost everything we use has been touched by CNC, whether it be the lathe that turned it, the mill that milled, drilled or tapped it, or made the mold for it, the laser or punch press that put the patterns in the sheet metal before it goes to the shear, and then the brake to form it. Very little is done manually these days when it comes to metal forming. Heat pipes I’m sure are bent using a cnc bender. We use Haas CNC lathes and mills at work. We also have a Hypotherm plasma cutter, and Lincoln Electric for welding.

YouTube has some cool cnc stuff if you have some time. The majority of my time is spent on lathes, awesome stuff guys. After 7 or 8 years it still makes me moist.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> Damn, that curved billet panel is ridiculously cool. Can't say the finished product is entirely to my taste, but I can definitely appreciate it.


Yeah, not my cuppa either. But it is a work of art. 




Owterspace said:


> Almost everything we use has been touched by CNC, whether it be the lathe that turned it, the mill that milled, drilled or tapped it, or made the mold for it, the laser or punch press that put the patterns in the sheet metal before it goes to the shear, and then the brake to form it. Very little is done manually these days when it comes to metal forming. Heat pipes I’m sure are bent using a cnc bender. We use Haas CNC lathes and mills at work. We also have a Hypotherm plasma cutter, and Lincoln Electric for welding.
> 
> YouTube has some cool cnc stuff if you have some time. The majority of my time is spent on lathes, awesome stuff guys. After 7 or 8 years it still makes me moist.


I grew up hand machining things, before they become CNC. I know everything is now CNC, but I still think of CNC being a computer controlled milling machine.


----------



## Owterspace

Doing it manually is becoming a lost art. We only have 2 or 3 guys at our shop who can do it. Old timers always have some good knowledge to pass down if they like you 😉


----------



## Bill Owen

doyll said:


> Indeed. CNC work is very low priced over there. MNPCTech does some really nice custom CLC cases. Below link is to one Bill's custom CNC cases
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oroPuoQntgA




thanks buddy! 

I still handcraft the majority of my custom PC mods, https://www.mnpctech.com/pages/gaming-pc-build-case-mod-gallery-by-mnpctech


----------



## D-EJ915

Gilles3000 said:


> Just found something interesting, an all black or white Gentle Typhoon knockoff that comes in both 120 and 140mm sizes with a FDB bearing instead of DBB. Just €3,5-4 a pop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.superbuy.com/en/page/bu...pm=a261b.12436309.ul20190116.3.56146b10AwlQ30
> 
> Would cost approx. €35 to get 4 of them to Belgium, tempting.


The frame looks like the one on the vardar, wonder if the maker decided to start making a prototype model.


----------



## Gilles3000

D-EJ915 said:


> The frame looks like the one on the vardar, wonder if the maker decided to start making a prototype model.


I think that its more likely that the Vardar's frame looks like the original Nidec Gentle Typhoon.


----------



## doyll

Gilles3000 said:


> I think that its more likely that the Vardar's frame looks like the original Nidec Gentle Typhoon.


Was thinking same thing.


----------



## ciarlatano

D-EJ915 said:


> The frame looks like the one on the vardar, wonder if the maker decided to start making a prototype model.


Vardars are seven blade, these are nine blade like the GT. These are nothing but a cheap GT look-alike. They actually look like the fans Phanteks includes in their budget cases.


----------



## D-EJ915

ciarlatano said:


> Vardars are seven blade, these are nine blade like the GT. These are nothing but a cheap GT look-alike. They actually look like the fans Phanteks includes in their budget cases.


You're probably right, I saw the frame and it immediately made me think of vardars with a different fan blade design but it does seem to be a common frame design.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Vardars are seven blade, these are nine blade like the GT. These are nothing but a cheap GT look-alike. They actually look like the fans Phanteks includes in their budget cases.


I think you might be right about them being Phantek's Metallicgear line. Metallicgear has 6 fans listed, 3x 120mm and 3x 140mm in all black, black housing / white impeller and black housing / white impeller RGB.

Attached image is 140mm black/white. 

Here is like to them
http://metallicgear.com/products


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> I think you might be right about them being Phantek's Metallicgear line. Metallicgear has 6 fans listed, 3x 120mm and 3x 140mm in all black, black housing / white impeller and black housing / white impeller RGB.
> 
> Attached image is 140mm black/white.
> 
> Here is like to them
> http://metallicgear.com/products


I wasn't necessarily saying they are the cheap Phanteks, just saying there are plenty of cheap GT knockoffs out there.


----------



## Elrick

*Using Outtake fan up top, as an Intake....?*

This would be a confusing like description here but here goes;

Have the Fractal 7 at my place (finally) and am now thinking about placing three - Silent Wings 3 140mm PWM Fan High Speed Edition fans inside my case.

I know I have to place two of them in the front for the intake application but I was wondering if it's at all possible to have the third fan, situated as an exhaust next to the motherboard IO plate area converted into an INTAKE fan setup.

If it's at all possible then getting even more air from the outside into the case, should work as I shall leave the top section of the case open to allow all hot temperatures to naturally rise, that's what hot air should do.

My power supply is located far down below in the case and I could create a shield so as to stop any warm air from the PSU, rising upwards towards my Intake Fan setup.

Just wondering if this would be logical or completely insane? 

_The whole PC will still reside inside an Air Conditioned room because I'm living in Convict Town, situated quite close to Satan's own A##hole._


----------



## TeslaHUN

Elrick said:


> This would be a confusing like description here but here goes;
> 
> Have the Fractal 7 at my place (finally) and am now thinking about placing three - Silent Wings 3 140mm PWM Fan High Speed Edition fans inside my case.
> 
> I know I have to place two of them in the front for the intake application but I was wondering if it's at all possible to have the third fan, situated as an exhaust next to the motherboard IO plate area converted into an INTAKE fan setup.
> 
> If it's at all possible then getting even more air from the outside into the case, should work as I shall leave the top section of the case open to allow all hot temperatures to naturally rise, that's what hot air should do.
> 
> My power supply is located far down below in the case and I could create a shield so as to stop any warm air from the PSU, rising upwards towards my Intake Fan setup.
> 
> Just wondering if this would be logical or completely insane?
> 
> _The whole PC will still reside inside an Air Conditioned room because I'm living in Convict Town, situated quite close to Satan's own A##hole._


Warm air is not rising in a 20-80Liter box (computer cases ) ,even the slowest fan speed is overwriting natural "warm air rising" rule . 
I would run 2 intake 1exhaust .


----------



## Elrick

TeslaHUN said:


> Warm air is not rising in a 20-80Liter box (computer cases ) ,even the slowest fan speed is overwriting natural "warm air rising" rule .


Didn't know that, thanks for that.

Would having 2 extractor fans on top of the case help take out the meandering heat, still trapped inside the case?



TeslaHUN said:


> I would run 2 intake 1exhaust .


The only reason being in changing the outlet of the rear fan situation, is that the grill looks restrictive as an exhaust BUT it should work well as an Intake Grill.

That was why I was asking about changing it's operation from being the normal exhaust outlet into an Intake here. This old style of Case Design is doing my head in because I've been using old Silverstone cases with inverted case designs, that help force out hot air easily with a small amount of fans installed.


----------



## Blameless

Elrick said:


> Would having 2 extractor fans on top of the case help take out the meandering heat, still trapped inside the case?


They will help pull air through the case, increasing air flow and reducing temperatures, but they probably won't be worth the additional noise and hassle. The fan closest to the rear will also be doing very little at all as it would mostly just exhaust unheated air from the rear intake. I wouldn't recommend a rear intake unless you need to put a radiator there, or turn around your CPU air cooler.

Personally, I suggest using the front and bottom fan mounts as filtered intakes, ditching the PSU shroud/divider, and leaving any other fan emplacements empty.

Actually, looking at the Define R7 again, it appears to have has a top filter. You could make the top fans intakes as well, remove all the I/O covers, and leave the rear fan empty. You could could probably five to seven intake fans just fast enough to move some air through the filters and windup with excellent temps. Also, removing the front door will be a big help.

Heat from the PSU is a total nonissue; it exhausts out the back and even at extreme loads only a tiny portion of heat from the PSU chassis is going to actually make it into the case air.


----------



## doyll

Elrick said:


> This would be a confusing like description here but here goes;
> 
> Have the Fractal 7 at my place (finally) and am now thinking about placing three - Silent Wings 3 140mm PWM Fan High Speed Edition fans inside my case.
> 
> I know I have to place two of them in the front for the intake application but I was wondering if it's at all possible to have the third fan, situated as an exhaust next to the motherboard IO plate area converted into an INTAKE fan setup.
> 
> If it's at all possible then getting even more air from the outside into the case, should work as I shall leave the top section of the case open to allow all hot temperatures to naturally rise, that's what hot air should do.
> 
> My power supply is located far down below in the case and I could create a shield so as to stop any warm air from the PSU, rising upwards towards my Intake Fan setup.
> 
> Just wondering if this would be logical or completely insane?
> 
> _The whole PC will still reside inside an Air Conditioned room because I'm living in Convict Town, situated quite close to Satan's own A##hole._


 What TeslaHUN said is close to my thoughts. 

I would put all 3x 140mm Silent Wings 3 PWM high speed in front and block all opeings in front fan mounting panel not covered by fans so all air they push into case has to move through case and out, not leak back up front. I would also block all bottom vents except under PSU for same reason .. and all but back most vent on top. I would remove all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area / lower rear vent airflow resistance so there is better front to back airflow around GPU and thus moving GPU's heated exhaust back and out. This will not only supply cooler air to GPU but also to CPU because less heated air from GPU can move up and mix into CPU intake airflow. It might also help to remove the PSU shroud from case so lower most front fan's airflow into case is not blocked by it. I can't be sure, but maybe 2x front and 1x bottom intakes (bottom just in front of PSU) might work better. 2x front & 1x bottom is what we used in older Fractal cases that only had room for 2x front intakes. I haven't used case exhaust fans in years, except when case doesn't have decent intakes. Using both intake and exhaust in your case is like using push / pull on a cooler. At same noise level peformance is the same, and 3x fans make about 2dB more noise than 2x fans at same speed, so at same noise level performance is the same and maybe at full speed there is 1-2c lower temps with both intake and exhaust. Having a 3rd intake will give much better case airflow and lower temps than 2x intake and 1x exhaust. 

This setup has proven to work very well in cases with this kind of airflow design.


----------



## Elrick

doyll said:


> What TeslaHUN said is close to my thoughts.
> 
> I would put all 3x 140mm Silent Wings 3 PWM high speed in front and block all opeings in front fan mounting panel not covered by fans so all air they push into case has to move through case and out, not leak back up front.


Got it.



doyll said:


> I would also block all bottom vents except under PSU for same reason .. and all but back most vent on top.


Done.



doyll said:


> I would remove all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area / lower rear vent airflow resistance so there is better front to back airflow around GPU and thus moving GPU's heated exhaust back and out. This will not only supply cooler air to GPU but also to CPU because less heated air from GPU can move up and mix into CPU intake airflow.


Done.



doyll said:


> It might also help to remove the PSU shroud from case so lower most front fan's airflow into case is not blocked by it. I can't be sure, but maybe 2x front and 1x bottom intakes (bottom just in front of PSU) might work better. 2x front & 1x bottom is what we used in older Fractal cases that only had room for 2x front intakes. I haven't used case exhaust fans in years, except when case doesn't have decent intakes. Using both intake and exhaust in your case is like using push / pull on a cooler. At same noise level peformance is the same, and 3x fans make about 2dB more noise than 2x fans at same speed, so at same noise level performance is the same and maybe at full speed there is 1-2c lower temps with both intake and exhaust. Having a *3rd intake* will give much better case airflow and lower temps than 2x intake and 1x exhaust.
> 
> This setup has proven to work very well in cases with this kind of airflow design.


Damn you should write up a general sticky-section for us ignorant Plebs when it comes to setting up an efficient air flow, inside these ancient PC case design. I've just been spoiled using Silverstone cases over many years and it hits me right between the eyes, when deciding how to set up a standard designed case, for decent air flow.

Just imagine what the poor CLC guys have to go through, in just making their AIOs work well inside these cases. Just has to always be Air Cooling all the way like it has been since 1992, at my place.


----------



## doyll

Elrick said:


> Got it.
> 
> Done.
> 
> Done.
> 
> Damn you should write up a general sticky-section for us ignorant Plebs when it comes to setting up an efficient air flow, inside these ancient PC case design. I've just been spoiled using Silverstone cases over many years and it hits me right between the eyes, when deciding how to set up a standard designed case, for decent air flow.
> 
> Just imagine what the poor CLC guys have to go through, in just making their AIOs work well inside these cases. Just has to always be Air Cooling all the way like it has been since 1992, at my place.


Most of what I told you is in 5th post this thread. I know what you mean about not understanding airflow and cooling. While it's not hard to understand when explained, it's something most people don't get without being shown. I was lucky and was taught about it long ago while developing better airflow in engine intake, heads and exhaust as well as cooling air-cooled engine. Our computer airflow and cooling uses same principles.
Silverstonetec has made some very good cases over the years. I wish I had tested used more of them.
Don't get me started on AIOs/CLCs. They are the devils spore. All need to be mounted so radiator in/out are above CPU pump/waterblock combo. Few have any provision for servicing or repair .. and all need servicing at least every couple of years which takes a lot of time and effort to do. That said, they have improved (only a little) over the years. Still, air cooler cool as well against all but a very few and those few are mostly unproven and will definitely not be perfroming as well as our air coolers do after a few years use, even if they can be serviced .. and definitely will not last near as long.


----------



## ciarlatano

Elrick said:


> Just imagine what the poor CLC guys have to go through, in just making their AIOs work well inside these cases. Just has to always be Air Cooling all the way like it has been since 1992, at my place.


Uh.....CLC guys just mount it with the rad as intake and ignore the other components in their system. You give them way too much credit thinking they do more planning than that.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Uh.....CLC guys just mount it with the rad as intake and ignore the other components in their system. You give them way too much credit thinking they do more planning than that.


 Too true! :thumb:
CLC guys often think they know everything there is to know because they read it on internet or saw in some magic act.


----------



## OverclockedUnicorn

Thinking to plug 2 be quiet! Silent Wings 3 140 mm PWM high-speed fans into one fan header on mb. But i checked specs on be quiet! site and they state that this vent draw 0.5A current. So most headers on mb are 1A and two those fans draw 1A(2x0.5A is it ok to plug both into 1 header or i rather plug them separate..?


----------



## doyll

OverclockedUnicorn said:


> Thinking to plug 2 be quiet! Silent Wings 3 140 mm PWM high-speed fans into one fan header on mb. But i checked specs on be quiet! site and they state that this vent draw 0.5A current. So most headers on mb are 1A and two those fans draw 1A(2x0.5A is it ok to plug both into 1 header or i rather plug them separate..?


Best way would be to get a PWM splitter with PSU power lead similar to one in link below:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Evercool-Splitter-Headers-Connect-Multiple/dp/B009D3HV1Q
it needs to use power from PSU to power fans and split PWM signal from motherboard fan header and send that to fans pin-4 header to control fan speed. Only one fan will send rpm signal to fan header.


----------



## OverclockedUnicorn

Thanks, will keep in mind that solution. I will just route cables different because i have enough free headers on mb(less cables the better).. Will set vents in my case meshify c as suggested, front 2x140mm and none on exhaust(stock 120mm ones arent that great)..


----------



## Shenhua

So i have the meshify C, 2x140 sw3+ one 120 x2 gp ( IK!, It sucks!, for me it does a great job) as front intakes. Cage removed, PSU shroud clean of cables.
Asus strix GTX 1080 it's modded with 2x120mm sw3.

Usually intakes and the 212 evo CPU cooler move around 750-800rpm under load, the GPU fans 1100-1150.

Recently bought a nh d15, tested it with 1 fan and 2 fans. 0.5°C difference at 140w. So my logic goes like this: If there's no improvement, it means I'm moving enough air, that renders the second one useless.

So, since i have the spare fan, and i have free ports i start testing. Top front intake at low Rpm (400-600). No improvement, CPU, GPU, RAM, VRM. Nothing.

I move it in the back at the top as an exhaust.
Again no improvement, which is strange because that zone it's always hot. So again my logic goes: It means I'm moving to much air.

I mount it on the bottom of the case as an intake, paired in Rpm with the rest of the fans. Everything drops around 3-4°C, except for the RAM, and every fan in the PC drops 50rpm (except for the cooler which spins under 500...i think it dropped some, but to be honest i have no idea how much).

..... like........ f*** you logic!!!!....

And there's this be quiet 500dx that just came out, with a super strange fan layout. I've watched the GN review. I didn't expected it to be bad, i actually expected it to be very decent, but i didn't expected it to be at 1°C difference from the cm h500 and p400a in the CPU+GPU test. Again, it's freaking strange.


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> I mount it on the bottom of the case as an intake, paired in Rpm with the rest of the fans. Everything drops around 3-4°C, except for the RAM, and every fan in the PC drops 50rpm (except for the cooler which spins under 500...i think it dropped some, but to be honest i have no idea how much).
> 
> ..... like........ f*** you logic!!!!....


 An example of my logic inn case airflow as shown in 5th post this thread is quoted below:
*"Example of Cool & Quiet System*

_My Define R2 system has three TY-140 74cfm intake fans. (no exhaust fans) in case while CPU has TY-143 130cfm fan and GPU has two TY-100 44cfm fans_
_Case = 222cfm_
_Components = 218cfm_
_Air temp inside of case going into coolers is never more than 3c above room._
_2 front TY-140 1300rpm intake fans match airflow demands of CPU cooler TY-143 2500rpm fans, both PWM controlled by CPU fan header_
_Bottom TY-140 intake fan supplies airflow demands of & GPU TY-100 fans and are PWM controlled by GPU_"
Probably would have helped your quest for lower temps with less noise if you had bother to read my guide. Then you probalby wouldn't have gone off about what my logic is or isn't. 

While your way of testing does work, better way is to monitor airflow temps into coolers. Then if air temp is more than a couple degrees warmer than air entering case, I usually increase case fan speed a little, and if that doesn't solve it and there is a bottom vent add a bottom intake as you did. Again, it's all in 5th post this thread. There is even a guide there about how to setup a simple low-cost remote sensor temp monitor directly below case airflow guide.


Adding bottom intake does not always work (& many cases don't have bottom intakes). It can just as easily supply more air than needed to GPU thus pushing heated exhaust from GPU up where it mixes and raises air temp entering CPU cooler. Again, this is why I monitor air temp into coolers when setting up case airflow.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> An example of my logic inn case airflow as shown in 5th post this thread is quoted below:
> *"Example of Cool & Quiet System*
> 
> _My Define R2 system has three TY-140 74cfm intake fans. (no exhaust fans) in case while CPU has TY-143 130cfm fan and GPU has two TY-100 44cfm fans_
> _Case = 222cfm_
> _Components = 218cfm_
> _Air temp inside of case going into coolers is never more than 3c above room._
> _2 front TY-140 1300rpm intake fans match airflow demands of CPU cooler TY-143 2500rpm fans, both PWM controlled by CPU fan header_
> _Bottom TY-140 intake fan supplies airflow demands of & GPU TY-100 fans and are PWM controlled by GPU_"
> Probably would have helped your quest for lower temps with less noise if you had bother to read my guide. Then you probalby wouldn't have gone off about what my logic is or isn't.
> 
> While your way of testing does work, better way is to monitor airflow temps into coolers. Then if air temp is more than a couple degrees warmer than air entering case, I usually increase case fan speed a little, and if that doesn't solve it and there is a bottom vent add a bottom intake as you did. Again, it's all in 5th post this thread. There is even a guide there about how to setup a simple low-cost remote sensor temp monitor directly below case airflow guide.
> 
> 
> Adding bottom intake does not always work (& many cases don't have bottom intakes). It can just as easily supply more air than needed to GPU thus pushing heated exhaust from GPU up where it mixes and raises air temp entering CPU cooler. Again, this is why I monitor air temp into coolers when setting up case airflow.


Im actually well aware of it, and I didn't needed to read it, because i did followed your suggestion of running low or non existent exhaust and came to the same conclusion by myself to what you're saying in post 5. However experience tells me that you even when you think you know enough, case cooling can "slap you in the face" from time to time, and twist what you know in ways you never expected.
That's why i still tested even if i knew the second fan on cooler would be margin of error, and i had some expectations of 1-2°C change since the case gets really hot at top rear when gaming, which it didn't happen at all.
However i had expectations for the top intake to affect airflow, for the better or the worst. At least for the RAM cus it was blowing on the RAM. Surprise!, Surprise!, It didn't do anything at all.

And the lower intake, while i expected to affect GPU, i didn't expect it to affect slightly more the CPU than the GPU, and I expected to be margin of error on VRM. Again, predictions where wrong. All last of them, wrong!


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> Im actually well aware of it, and I didn't needed to read it, because i did followed your suggestion of running low or non existent exhaust and came to the same conclusion by myself to what you're saying in post 5. However experience tells me that you even when you think you know enough, case cooling can "slap you in the face" from time to time, and twist what you know in ways you never expected.
> That's why i still tested even if i knew the second fan on cooler would be margin of error, and i had some expectations of 1-2°C change since the case gets really hot at top rear when gaming, which it didn't happen at all.
> However i had expectations for the top intake to affect airflow, for the better or the worst. At least for the RAM cus it was blowing on the RAM. Surprise!, Surprise!, It didn't do anything at all.
> 
> And the lower intake, while i expected to affect GPU, i didn't expect it to affect slightly more the CPU than the GPU, and I expected to be margin of error on VRM. Again, predictions where wrong. All last of them, wrong!


Indeed, there are so many variables effecting airflow in our cases besides the fans we intstall it is impossible to guess what it will do and be correct even 70-80% of the time. Even small things like cables & wires can and do effect airflow. 


All comes down how air often does not flow the way we think it will. It's possible if you had raised the front intake fans' temp to speed curve a little the their additional airflow into and through case would have given similar temp improvements. 

Were both CPU and GPU at full load?


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> Indeed, there are so many variables effecting airflow in our cases besides the fans we intstall it is impossible to guess what it will do and be correct even 70-80% of the time. Even small things like cables & wires can and do effect airflow.
> 
> 
> All comes down how air often does not flow the way we think it will. It's possible if you had raised the front intake fans' temp to speed curve a little the their additional airflow into and through case would have given similar temp improvements.
> 
> Were both CPU and GPU at full load?


No, but high enough. GPU 190w+ (1080 OC) and CPU 80-90. Usually stress test takes the GPU to 210 and CPU to 120+.

But I'm testing with real world usage, because i want improvements in real world usage, not stress testing.

I know I'm operating with high margins of error, but 3-4°C difference it's visible.


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> No, but high enough. GPU 190w+ (1080 OC) and CPU 80-90. Usually stress test takes the GPU to 210 and CPU to 120+.
> 
> But I'm testing with real world usage, because i want improvements in real world usage, not stress testing.
> 
> I know I'm operating with high margins of error, but 3-4°C difference it's visible.


 A 3-4c improvement is well worth it! :thumb:
I monitor air temp into coolers and when I get it down to no more than 3-4c above room ambient I usually stop. A couple of times I've gotten it to less than 2c warmer entering cooler than entering case with both under heavy loads.


----------



## Valka814

Around 2-3 month ago I needed some case fans. Doyll recommended Silentium Sigma Pro 140 as a potential great budget fan. Then I bought a few.
I was curious and 2 weeks ago I bought 3x Noctua NF-A14 Chromax...and I'm not impressed with them. I not did any proper testing, measurments, but the temperatures look the same and the noise level is not improved or not noticibly better.
So the Sigma PRO looks as a very attractive budget king system fan.


----------



## doyll

Valka814 said:


> Around 2-3 month ago I needed some case fans. Doyll recommended Silentium Sigma Pro 140 as a potential great budget fan. Then I bought a few.
> I was curious and 2 weeks ago I bought 3x Noctua NF-A14 Chromax...and I'm not impressed with them. I not did any proper testing, measurments, but the temperatures look the same and the noise level is not improved or not noticibly better.
> So the Sigma PRO looks as a very attractive budget king system fan.


Thank you for letting us know how it all worked out. I was impressed by NF-A14, negatively impressed.


----------



## Memmento Mori

Dear Gents,
I would like to ask a untypical question about Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-PS Black Edition. I know about the howling problem in a push/pull config. After some time i found an answer on German forums that you can fix it if you add some space between the rad and pull fan.

My questions would be:

1, how much space? 0,2cm? 0,5cm? More?

2, can Someone tell me how big is the impact on performance adding space between radiator/pull fan? ( 400 - 1.000 rpm)

Thank you very much for any kind of information.

BR,
M&M :axesmiley


----------



## ciarlatano

Memmento Mori said:


> Dear Gents,
> I would like to ask a untypical question about Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-PS Black Edition. I know about the howling problem in a push/pull config. After some time i found an answer on German forums that you can fix it if you add some space between the rad and pull fan.
> 
> My questions would be:
> 
> 1, how much space? 0,2cm? 0,5cm? More?
> 
> 2, can Someone tell me how big is the impact on performance adding space between radiator/pull fan? ( 400 - 1.000 rpm)
> 
> Thank you very much for any kind of information.
> 
> BR,
> M&M :axesmiley


I seem to recall seeing 25mm spacers helping to alleviate the issue.


----------



## Gilles3000

Memmento Mori said:


> Dear Gents,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to ask a untypical question about Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-PS Black Edition. I know about the howling problem in a push/pull config. After some time i found an answer on German forums that you can fix it if you add some space between the rad and pull fan.
> 
> My questions would be:
> 
> 1, how much space? 0,2cm? 0,5cm? More?
> 
> 2, can Someone tell me how big is the impact on performance adding space between radiator/pull fan? ( 400 - 1.000 rpm)
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for any kind of information.
> 
> BR,
> M&M :axesmiley


I'd say more. I had some B12's in the front of my Arc Mini R2, and there's about .5cm in between the fan and the dust filter on that case, and they still howled like hell at some rpm's.

Spacers usually improve performance, so just get some decently fat ones, if you have room to fit them.


----------



## doyll

Memmento Mori said:


> Dear Gents,
> I would like to ask a untypical question about Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-PS Black Edition. I know about the howling problem in a push/pull config. After some time i found an answer on German forums that you can fix it if you add some space between the rad and pull fan.
> 
> My questions would be:
> 
> 1, how much space? 0,2cm? 0,5cm? More?
> 
> 2, can Someone tell me how big is the impact on performance adding space between radiator/pull fan? ( 400 - 1.000 rpm)
> 
> Thank you very much for any kind of information.
> 
> BR,
> M&M :axesmiley


Like already said, thicker is better. In old days we used an old fan and cut out motor bracket and fan to make a 25mm thick spacer.


----------



## Memmento Mori

ciarlatano said:


> I seem to recall seeing 25mm spacers helping to alleviate the issue.





Gilles3000 said:


> I'd say more. I had some B12's in the front of my Arc Mini R2, and there's about .5cm in between the fan and the dust filter on that case, and they still howled like hell at some rpm's.
> 
> Spacers usually improve performance, so just get some decently fat ones, if you have room to fit them.



Thank you both for sharing the information.

Well i have a Caselab SM8 with an extendet top by 31mm, the fan has 25 mm so 6mm space to play:h34r-smi 

Spacers you mean on corners of the fan right? 
Would it help to use a spacer in form of a ring (like mini tube) to cover the sorounding space? Like a duck?


----------



## Gilles3000

Memmento Mori said:


> Thank you both for sharing the information.
> 
> Well i have a Caselab SM8 with an extendet top by 31mm, the fan has 25 mm so 6mm space to play:h34r-smi
> 
> Spacers you mean on corners of the fan right?
> Would it help to use a spacer in form of a ring (like mini tube) to cover the sorounding space? Like a duck?


No, no. just using spacers on the corners wouldn't work at all, you need something like this:
https://www.performance-pcs.com/wat...x120x20mm-radiator-shroud-plexi-ph-38112.html

I'm not sure if there are any thinner ones, but there are plenty of models you easily make one yourself from some 5-6mm thick plastic sheet.
Edit: This should work:
https://www.aquatuning.de/air-cooling/fan-shrouds/7965/phobya-shroud-decoupling-120mm-7mm-thickness

Edit2: Or if you're certain that 7mm is too thick to fit, there's this 5mm one as well:
https://www.aquatuning.de/water-coo...056/phobya-radiator-gasket-5mm-for-120mm-fans


----------



## D-EJ915

Gilles3000 said:


> No, no. just using spacers on the corners wouldn't work at all, you need something like this:
> https://www.performance-pcs.com/wat...x120x20mm-radiator-shroud-plexi-ph-38112.html
> 
> I'm not sure if there are any thinner ones, but there are plenty of models you easily make one yourself from some 5-6mm thick plastic sheet.
> Edit: This should work:
> https://www.aquatuning.de/air-cooling/fan-shrouds/7965/phobya-shroud-decoupling-120mm-7mm-thickness
> 
> Edit2: Or if you're certain that 7mm is too thick to fit, there's this 5mm one as well:
> https://www.aquatuning.de/water-coo...056/phobya-radiator-gasket-5mm-for-120mm-fans


I'm not sure plastic will work too well with the weird shape of the NBE frame but that rubber and foam one will probably be fine.

If you have a bunch of old mousepads laying around you could cut one up and test using that.


----------



## doyll

I like the old mouse pad idea! :thumb:
I often make my own fan spacers and adapters. I like as much clearance as possible on each side of fan because ideally clearance should be same as dimeter of fan. I've found 1/3 fan diameter clearance to work well. More helps if fans are side by side becuase side mating to other fan is not flowing any air to/from fan. All my cases have open center 30-40mm caster bases which give case feet plus 33-43mm plus case feet height additional airflow space plus case fee as well as much better clearance to floor.


----------



## sonic2911

..unbelievable, where can I buy the TY-143SQ in US now  I want to replace some old Phanteks case fans now... or any better options?


----------



## doyll

sonic2911 said:


> ..unbelievable, where can I buy the TY-143SQ in US now  I want to replace some old Phanteks case fans now... or any better options?


 I don't know. You can look for Cooljag Everflow F121425BUAF as it's basically same fan just slightly faster and all black. PugetSystems and frozencpu used to have them but both are now out of stock. 

 EVERFLOW F121425BUAF








*Specifications*
*Dimension *140x140x25 mm (5.5 in)
*Speed *600-2600 RPM
*Air Flow *29.68-126.02 CFM
*Air Pressure *0.29-5.22 mmH2O
*Noise *20-43 dBa
*Bearing Type *Dual Ball Bearing


Thermalright TY-143 SQ
*Specifications*
*Dimension *140x140x25 mm (5.5 in)
*Speed *600-2500 RPM
*Air Flow *29.54-123.05 CFM
*Air Pressure *0.25-4.21 mmH2O
*Noise *22-48 dBa
*Bearing Type *Dual Ball Bearing


----------



## adversary

I now get all fans I needed, but I lack extension and Y splitters to activate them all. My intention was to get it from Noctua, assuming quality will be good, but my dealer/shop is unable to get cables from them now.

All what they have about extensions and Y splitters are at this moment, is available from AKASA only. Now, I did search on internet and see that they have indeed extensions and splitters with similar looking. But I have zero expirience with them. Are their cables good quality?


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> I now get all fans I needed, but I lack extension and Y splitters to activate them all. My intention was to get it from Noctua, assuming quality will be good, but my dealer/shop is unable to get cables from them now.
> 
> All what they have about extensions and Y splitters are at this moment, is available from AKASA only. Now, I did search on internet and see that they have indeed extensions and splitters with similar looking. But I have zero expirience with them. Are their cables good quality?


Old Akasa were not good, but newer ones are okay. Can you post an image of ones you can get? Then I can tell you if they are okay or not.


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> Old Akasa were not good, but newer ones are okay. Can you post an image of ones you can get? Then I can tell you if they are okay or not.



Ok. I asked seller and they send me this pictures, it includes Y splitters and extensions.


----------



## Shenhua

adversary said:


> I now get all fans I needed, but I lack extension and Y splitters to activate them all. My intention was to get it from Noctua, assuming quality will be good, but my dealer/shop is unable to get cables from them now.
> 
> 
> 
> All what they have about extensions and Y splitters are at this moment, is available from AKASA only. Now, I did search on internet and see that they have indeed extensions and splitters with similar looking. But I have zero expirience with them. Are their cables good quality?


What quality you're looking for in a bunch of cables that are gonna run minimal level of current and voltages.

I have 30¢ splitters and noctua ones (they look identical to what you posted....but i think they're slightly longer). I don't see why would you use one over the other based on quality.
I'm using cheaper ones because they are 2.5x the length of the noctua and i can route them where i want, and the noctuas are sitting in the box.


----------



## adversary

Shenhua said:


> What quality you're looking for in a bunch of cables that are gonna run minimal level of current and voltages.
> 
> I have 30¢ splitters and noctua ones (they look identical to what you posted....but i think they're slightly longer). I don't see why would you use one over the other based on quality.
> I'm using cheaper ones because they are 2.5x the length of the noctua and i can route them where i want, and the noctuas are sitting in the box.



Extensions should be 30cm, splitters 15cm.

I need enough quality to ensure no problem like lost contact on some pins, etc. Which I had expirienced on cheap ebay cables, along with other problems. And now, trust me, it is not worth to cheap on that things.

One time I get Y splitter from ebay with rpm pin on both connectors, imagine that.

I would rather plug quality extension into quality extension than risk using any cables and expirience problems like before.

Y splitters will be used for Noctua 120mm Industrial 2000rpm PWM, three on top, and two on door (optional), Cooler Master Cosmos II case. Exactly these fans draw only 0.1A, but anyway, I invested much into fans and cooling so I really would like to complete build with quality cables.


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> Ok. I asked seller and they send me this pictures, it includes Y splitters and extensions.


Those look okay. The problem with some is shrink wrap tube overlaps sleeving but not socket/plug. That means wires are rigid in heatshrink and socket/plug with all flexing being in very short area where wires enter plug/socket. End result is if they flex too many times they with stress harden this short bit of wire eventually breaking. Just be careful to not flex the wires entering sockets/plugs and you will be fine.


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> Those look okay. The problem with some is shrink wrap tube overlaps sleeving but not socket/plug. That means wires are rigid in heatshrink and socket/plug with all flexing being in very short area where wires enter plug/socket. End result is if they flex too many times they with stress harden this short bit of wire eventually breaking. Just be careful to not flex the wires entering sockets/plugs and you will be fine.


Ok. So this is newer ones you mentioned?


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> Ok. So this is newer ones you mentioned?


 I think so. In below image of original 5-way PSU powered PWM splitter you can see how all leads terminate into connections in plugs/sockets:










Below is newer style with mutliple leads grouped together away from plugs/sockets with single set of leads terminating into plugs/sockets:










Again, this is 5-way PWM splitter, not the 2-way and 3-way you are getting.
Personally I would not use Akasa because of problems I had with them in the past. Too many better ones with better customer support than Akasa gave me when I had problems. 

You said your fans are rated 0.1a. I'm pretty sure that is rated load, not start-up or impeller stopped load. Startup/stalled load is many times higher. If you've ever read about someone burning up their fan hub / controller / splitter it's almost always at startup, when fans are drawing 3-6 times more power than rated load. Attached chart below has rated and startup load specs for Gentle Typhoon fans made by Nidec Servo. You can see how 2150rpm GT with 0.123amp rating and draws .0530 at startup.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> I think so. In below image of original 5-way PSU powered PWM splitter you can see how all leads terminate into connections in plugs/sockets:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below is newer style with mutliple leads grouped together away from plugs/sockets with single set of leads terminating into plugs/sockets:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this is 5-way PWM splitter, not the 2-way and 3-way you are getting.
> Personally I would not use Akasa because of problems I had with them in the past. Too many better ones with better customer support than Akasa gave me when I had problems.
> 
> You said your fans are rated 0.1a. I'm pretty sure that is rated load, not start-up or impeller stopped load. Startup/stalled load is many times higher. If you've ever read about someone burning up their fan hub / controller / splitter it's almost always at startup, when fans are drawing 3-6 times more power than rated load. Attached chart below has rated and startup load specs for Gentle Typhoon fans made by Nidec Servo. You can see how 2150rpm GT with 0.123amp rating and draws .0530 at startup.


Where can i buy these for Europe, all im finding it's the cheap hubs.


----------



## JackCY

There are dozens of fan splitters on ebay/aliexpress if you don't want to pay the crazy premiums for very little selection on local big PC parts shops.
You can get 4pin splitters, 4pin powered splitters with many different connections be it SATA or molex, be it cables or a small PCB hub.
I like the small PCB hub as it's only PWM and power cable, not a whole nest of mess. But you can get the cable ones if you need extra length, though in normal case that's unlikely an issue.

You just have to dig through the endless listings to find the model with connections you want. There are plenty unpowered ones though they are easy to mod to add a molex or sata power to them.


----------



## doyll

Shenhua said:


> Where can i buy these for Europe, all im finding it's the cheap hubs.


 Only one in bottom image is even functional. One in upper image can have leads breaking off by the time cable management is complete. 

Try doing a shopping search on Google for "Gelid 4-into-1 PWM splitter" and you should find a good one for 4-6 euro.


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> You said your fans are rated 0.1a. I'm pretty sure that is rated load, not start-up or impeller stopped load. Startup/stalled load is many times higher. If you've ever read about someone burning up their fan hub / controller / splitter it's almost always at startup, when fans are drawing 3-6 times more power than rated load. Attached chart below has rated and startup load specs for Gentle Typhoon fans made by Nidec Servo. You can see how 2150rpm GT with 0.123amp rating and draws .0530 at startup.



I'm aware of fact the fan consume more amperage on startup. Only way to know for this Noctua Industrial 120mm 2000rpm would be to ask Noctua.

At this moment, I'm still using Nanoxia 1300rpm DC fans (as three top exhaust fans), which are rated 0.16A, as 3X fans connected to one header. For almost four years, without problems. But it doesn't mean that I did not exceed 1A at startup, and maybe I'm risking problem all the time.

Also I now use Noctua 140mm Indistrual 3000rpm on CPU fan header, CPU OPTIONAL header, and Chassis 1 header. These fans are rated I think 0.56A. Again, probably I risk exceeding 1A at startup.

Maybe it would be best to use system where +12V and ground are from PSU, but PWM (and rpm) are connected to motherboard headers. That way there would be no risk, no stress at motherboard, but PWM control would remain same.


----------



## Shenhua

doyll said:


> Only one in bottom image is even functional. One in upper image can have leads breaking off by the time cable management is complete.
> 
> Try doing a shopping search on Google for "Gelid 4-into-1 PWM splitter" and you should find a good one for 4-6 euro.


Thanks.


----------



## Valka814

We the additional free time, I'm trying to perfect the paste amount. R7 3700X+ TSP 140
Does it look good?


----------



## doyll

Valka814 said:


> We the additional free time, I'm trying to perfect the paste amount. R7 3700X+ TSP 140
> Does it look good?


Looks good to me. How are temps?


----------



## Valka814

doyll said:


> Looks good to me. How are temps?


Gona check with lower, fixed rpm case fans. Looks like the airflow in the case is good, the temperature graph is very flat. Room temp is probably around 24-25 celsius.


----------



## doyll

Looks okay. I think Ryzen 3700 throttles at 85c, so your temp is very close to throttling if not throttling. Meshify S2 is good airflow case and Sigma Pro 140 PWM & Nf-A14 at 1320-1500rpm should be moving plenty of air thorugh case. Wish we knew what air temp entering cooler was.


----------



## adversary

Ordered Gelid 4-into-1 PWM splitter, two pieces. Hope it is OK quality.

Ordered also some Noctua extensions and Y splitters, in case I need to combine with it. One splitter can be used on Gelid cable, to enable usage of 5 fans.

Noctua Industrial 140mm 3000rpm can now be all used on CPU header (including both CPU fans on cooler, plus same fan behind them on chassins which also blows air directly on cooler).

Ordered also Molex to SATA adapters, all in black color.

This way, mobo won't be stressed about delivering +12V to fans. PWM control remains.

And I think (can't remember exactly) that SATA port have plenty of amperage, so powering fans this way won't be problem I hope. If I'm wrong about anything, please let me know.


----------



## Valka814

doyll said:


> Looks okay. I think Ryzen 3700 throttles at 85c, so your temp is very close to throttling if not throttling. Meshify S2 is good airflow case and Sigma Pro 140 PWM & Nf-A14 at 1320-1500rpm should be moving plenty of air thorugh case. Wish we knew what air temp entering cooler was.


I'm planning to get some stuff from aliexpress, to make some measurements. Meanwhile I checked the case fans with lower rpm (630-730) and kept the CPU cooler with temperature control (1300rpm at or above 75 celsius), the CPU temperature looks the same. Next time I'm gona check when my VGA is involved as well. 
Its much harder to cool than my previous Ryzen 1700 and 2700 while its consumes much less power.


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> Ordered Gelid 4-into-1 PWM splitter, two pieces. Hope it is OK quality.
> 
> Ordered also some Noctua extensions and Y splitters, in case I need to combine with it. One splitter can be used on Gelid cable, to enable usage of 5 fans.
> 
> Noctua Industrial 140mm 3000rpm can now be all used on CPU header (including both CPU fans on cooler, plus same fan behind them on chassins which also blows air directly on cooler).
> 
> Ordered also Molex to SATA adapters, all in black color.
> 
> This way, mobo won't be stressed about delivering +12V to fans. PWM control remains.
> 
> And I think (can't remember exactly) that SATA port have plenty of amperage, so powering fans this way won't be problem I hope. If I'm wrong about anything, please let me know.


Old Molex HDD connecters are rated 11amp 12v. 

New SATA has 3 connecters rated 4.5amp 12v.


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> Old Molex HDD connecters are rated 11amp 12v.
> 
> New SATA gas 3 connecters rated 4.5amp 12v.



You mean, SATA connector on PSU can give up to 4.5amp 12v? Or you mean SATA connector on the end of SATA cable (where it connects to SSD/HDD)?

I do not have Molex on PSU. There is SATA and PERIF.

When I take a look at PERIF cable, it have 4 pins (other two holes on connector are empty) and split to Molex. How much amps can PERIF provide?


----------



## doyll

> You mean, SATA connector on PSU can give up to 4.5amp 12v? Or you mean SATA connector on the end of SATA cable (where it connects to SSD/HDD)?
> 
> I do not have Molex on PSU. There is SATA and PERIF.
> 
> When I take a look at PERIF cable, it have 4 pins (other two holes on connector are empty) and split to Molex. How much amps can PERIF provide?


What other SATA connectors are powered? SATA connectors all have same rating. At least they are supposed to all be the same. Only difference between them is male and female. Male plugs into female.


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> What other SATA connectors are powered? SATA connectors all have same rating. At least they are supposed to all be the same. Only difference between them is male and female. Male plugs into female.


Ok. My intention was to ask if PERIF connector maybe provide more that SATA amperage?


----------



## deepor

Don't think about the side of the cable where you read "PERIF". That PERIF thing is not a standard, it's just something that your PSU manufacturer uses, only they know what it can do.

You need to look at the other side of the cable and look at what kind of connector you see there. When you see the old-school Molex 4-pin there, then those 11A at 12V that were mentioned earlier are supposed to be allowed on that connector.


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> Ok. My intention was to ask if PERIF connector maybe provide more that SATA amperage?


I don't know what specs are for PERIF.


----------



## adversary

deepor said:


> Don't think about the side of the cable where you read "PERIF". That PERIF thing is not a standard, it's just something that your PSU manufacturer uses, only they know what it can do.
> 
> You need to look at the other side of the cable and look at what kind of connector you see there. When you see the old-school Molex 4-pin there, then those 11A at 12V that were mentioned earlier are supposed to be allowed on that connector.


If this helps, I will post details.

PSU is EVGA G3 1000W. PERIF cable have on other side 4X 4-pin Molex.


----------



## doyll

As far as I know most PSU cables use 18 AWG (American Wire Guage) wire with only a very few using 16 AWG. 18 AWG is 0.04.03" / 1.02mm in diameter. 16AWG is 0.0508" / 1.29mm in diameter.
Below is link to voltage drop calculator. 

https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/cable-sizing-selection.html
To use it you will need to use below link to convert wire gauge to mm2. 

https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/awg-to-mm.html

With these you can calculate and determine wire size needed to handle the load. 

Don't be surprised when you find out most computer wiring if even big enough to handle their loads are only marginally so. They depend on their heat radiating from wire to air in our cases to keep them from burning up.


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> As far as I know most PSU cables use 18 AWG (American Wire Guage) wire with only a very few using 16 AWG. 18 AWG is 0.04.03" / 1.02mm in diameter. 16AWG is 0.0508" / 1.29mm in diameter.
> Below is link to voltage drop calculator.
> 
> https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/cable-sizing-selection.html
> To use it you will need to use below link to convert wire gauge to mm2.
> 
> https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/awg-to-mm.html
> 
> With these you can calculate and determine wire size needed to handle the load.
> 
> Don't be surprised when you find out most computer wiring if even big enough to handle their loads are only marginally so. They depend on their heat radiating from wire to air in our cases to keep them from burning up.



So far as I found, EVGA 1000W should be 16 AWG.

But question remains, how I can know PERIF connector on PSU amperage cabability? For SATA you say it is 4.5A


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> So far as I found, EVGA 1000W should be 16 AWG.
> 
> But question remains, how I can know PERIF connector on PSU amperage cabability? For SATA you say it is 4.5A


 What is "EVGA 1000W" ?
God only knows, because PERIF isn't a specific connector, just something PSU manufacturers us and don't tell us any specs.
No, I said "New SATA gas 3 connecters rated 4.5amp 12v". I fat-fingered "has" with "gas".
I've sense found that is is 1.5amp on each, so a total of 4.5amp. 

Why don't you just use 2-pin, 2+2-pin, 4-pin, 6-pin, 4+4-pin, 6+2-pin and 8-pin ATX +12v/EPX +12, PCI Express Molex power plugs on PSU for GPU and/or motheroboard power? They have the highest 12v power ratings. Link below has all the specs for you:
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html


----------



## ThrashZone

Hi,
Yeah evga has a couple 1000 watt psu's 
I have the 1000P2 series plus a couple others 850P2 and 1200P2.


----------



## adversary

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Yeah evga has a couple 1000 watt psu's
> I have the 1000P2 series plus a couple others 850P2 and 1200P2.



I have EVGA 550W B3 not used, EVGA 1000W G3 which is now in use but with EVGA 1200W P2 cables. Because my P2 died three years ago.

When I compare cables, for example, PERIF and SATA, all are same from B3 to P2. Only VGA cables from P2 are thicker (did not pay attention on CPU and mobo cables, they remained from P2 anyway).


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> What is "EVGA 1000W" ?
> God only knows, because FERIF isn't a specific connector, just something PSU manufacturers us and don't tell us any specs.
> No, I said "New SATA gas 3 connecters rated 4.5amp 12v". I fat-fingered "has" with "gas".
> I've sense found that is is 1.5amp on each, so a total of 4.5amp.
> 
> Why don't you just use 2-pin, 2+2-pin, 4-pin, 6-pin, 4+4-pin, 6+2-pin and 8-pin ATX +12v/EPX +12, PCI Express Molex power plugs on PSU for GPU and/or motheroboard power? They have the highest 12v power ratings. Link below has all the specs for you:
> http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html



Reason why I started all this is because you let me know how much fan consumes way more amperage at startup, compared to declared rating while spinning at max speed.

Because I ordered 2 sets of Gelid 4 way splitter. Idea is to run 3X Noctua Industrial 140mm 3000rpm, which are rated by Noctua at 0.55A, on one Gelid splitter. On other Gelid splitter, I can use 5X (5th fan with Y splitter) Noctua Industrial 120mm 2000rpm, which are rated by Noctua at 0.10A.

Now, all these 8 fans draw 2.15A total as rated. Now multiply it with spinup higher demand and we have....?

If I could somehow know is my PERIF connector and cable are capable, than problem would be solved. Just connect Molex from Gelid splitter connector to each Molex connector which PERIF provides.

So, option can be PERIF if I can get 100% info how much amperage it provides (it is allegedly for older HDD-s and such, maybe they really provide more).

Other option - if I get you right? To use VGA to Molex adapter, and use VGA connector from PSU.


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> Reason why I started all this is because you let me know how much fan consumes way more amperage at startup, compared to declared rating while spinning at max speed.
> 
> Because I ordered 2 sets of Gelid 4 way splitter. Idea is to run 3X Noctua Industrial 140mm 3000rpm, which are rated by Noctua at 0.55A, on one Gelid splitter. On other Gelid splitter, I can use 5X (5th fan with Y splitter) Noctua Industrial 120mm 2000rpm, which are rated by Noctua at 0.10A.
> 
> Now, all these 8 fans draw 2.15A total as rated. Now multiply it with spinup higher demand and we have....?
> 
> If I could somehow know is my PERIF connector and cable are capable, than problem would be solved. Just connect Molex from Gelid splitter connector to each Molex connector which PERIF provides.
> 
> So, option can be PERIF if I can get 100% info how much amperage it provides (it is allegedly for older HDD-s and such, maybe they really provide more).
> 
> Other option - if I get you right? To use VGA to Molex adapter, and use VGA connector from PSU.


One 4-way splitter running 5 fans with 5th on 'Y' splitter so all powered from one molex will be fine will be fine. 3x NF-a14 IPPC on 1 molex power will be fine too. Job done. 18-20" of 18awg won't even get warm to the touch in the amount of time there is heavy load at startup.


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> One 4-way splitter running 5 fans with 5th on 'Y' splitter so all powered from one molex will be fine will be fine. 3x NF-a14 IPPC on 1 molex power will be fine too. Job done. 18-20" of 18awg won't even get warm to the touch in the amount of time there is heavy load at startup.


Thank you.

So I could simply connect cable (which is included with PSU and is black colored) PERIF to 4pin Molex (it splits to 3x Molex), on PERIF connector on PSU. Connect one Gelid splitter into one Molex, and another Gelid splitter into another Molex. From there on, coonect fans as we discussed.

So far as I found, these PERIF connector on PSU should have more amperage than SATA connector. You can also take a look into link you provided.

As PERIF to Molex cable is pretty short, and spin up time of fans is just moment, there should be no problem using 18 AWG wire I think. Even if fans take 10A at this moment. After that, fans work at 2.15A (if pushed to max) and it is safe.

I just need to dig more around to be 100% sure about that PERIF connector if that will be choice of use.


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So I could simply connect cable (which is included with PSU and is black colored) PERIF to 4pin Molex (it splits to 3x Molex), on PERIF connector on PSU. Connect one Gelid splitter into one Molex, and another Gelid splitter into another Molex. From there on, coonect fans as we discussed.
> 
> So far as I found, these PERIF connector on PSU should have more amperage than SATA connector. You can also take a look into link you provided.
> 
> As PERIF to Molex cable is pretty short, and spin up time of fans is just moment, there should be no problem using 18 AWG wire I think. Even if fans take 10A at this moment. After that, fans work at 2.15A (if pushed to max) and it is safe.
> 
> I just need to dig more around to be 100% sure about that PERIF connector if that will be choice of use.


You keep talking about PERIF like it's something we should know about, but we don't. So how about you post a link to these "PERIF" connectors with their power ratings? Because I have no idea what they are or their rating.


----------



## adversary

doyll said:


> You keep talking about PERIF like it's something we should know about, but we don't. So how about you post a link to these "PERIF" connectors with their power ratings? Because I have no idea what they are or their rating.


Still do not know, as I say, have to inform myself.

If PERIF cames as not enough, what exactly you propose? Can I take +12V from VGA connector on PSU?


----------



## doyll

adversary said:


> Still do not know, as I say, have to inform myself.
> 
> If PERIF cames as not enough, what exactly you propose? Can I take +12V from VGA connector on PSU?


Seems PERIF is a ghost. 

I gave you links showing most if not all power cable ends used for motherboard, GPU etc as well as pinout and amp ratings.


----------



## JackCY

On EVGA PSU PERIF means peripherals, and this is old 4pin molex cable for CD/DVD/pump/lights/what have you. "4 pin peripheral power cable" in the linked summary of connectors.

For max current handling you either measure it yourself to your specification or you look up the standardized ratings for connectors and cable used for the output and cable you want to use.

Considering this thread is about cooling, what are you doing? Hooking up a 12V high current car fan to the PSU?


----------



## doyll

JackCY said:


> On EVGA PSU PERIF means peripherals, and this is old 4pin molex cable for CD/DVD/pump/lights/what have you. "4 pin peripheral power cable" in the linked summary of connectors.
> 
> For max current handling you either measure it yourself to your specification or you look up the standardized ratings for connectors and cable used for the output and cable you want to use.
> 
> Considering this thread is about cooling, what are you doing? Hooking up a 12V high current car fan to the PSU?


It's all pretty well explained in last few posts. 8 fans, 3 of them NF-A14 IPPC to be powered and controlled with 2 Gelid 4-to-one PMW splitters with PSU power. 5 fans on 1 splitter and 3 NF-A14 on other.
So while adversary is being overly worried about the 3-5 times more power fans draw at startup or if impeller is stopped, trying to figure out and optimize the problem is a good thing.


----------



## Memmento Mori

Dear Gents,

was looking for a specific information: hydrophobic coating of PC fans, does it makes cleaning them from dust easier? Im not using dust filters as the airflow is more important for me, and my experience is that even with the best dust filters you will never prevent the finest dust to compile in your case and you need to sacrifice the airflow ....

Im just looking for a way to make the cleaning easier. Im using an duster but anyway the finest dust sticks with the fan blades and creates an white/grey layer on them (mainly on the backside of the blades), you need to wipe it of them.... For cars are plenty of hydrophobic coatings for plastic parts and you basically just need to "shower" the dirt of it. For this reason I used on 1 fan the hydrophobic coating and now letting the fans get dusty  At this moment im using NB Eloops which have high polished surface of the blades. What I noticed is that the coating repaired the micro scratches on the surface. After some time I will make some photos before the dusting and after it, to compare the results without wiping just "blowing" the fans. 

Would be glad if you share your experience or thoughts... 

And I hope it is not much off-topic to post it here 

All the best.

BR,
MM:axesmiley


----------



## doyll

Memmento Mori said:


> Dear Gents,
> 
> was looking for a specific information: hydrophobic coating of PC fans, does it makes cleaning them from dust easier? Im not using dust filters as the airflow is more important for me, and my experience is that even with the best dust filters you will never prevent the finest dust to compile in your case and you need to sacrifice the airflow ....
> 
> Im just looking for a way to make the cleaning easier. Im using an duster but anyway the finest dust sticks with the fan blades and creates an white/grey layer on them (mainly on the backside of the blades), you need to wipe it of them.... For cars are plenty of hydrophobic coatings for plastic parts and you basically just need to "shower" the dirt of it. For this reason I used on 1 fan the hydrophobic coating and now letting the fans get dusty  At this moment im using NB Eloops which have high polished surface of the blades. What I noticed is that the coating repaired the micro scratches on the surface. After some time I will make some photos before the dusting and after it, to compare the results without wiping just "blowing" the fans.
> 
> Would be glad if you share you experience or thoughts...
> 
> And I hope it is not much off-topic to post it here
> 
> All the best.
> 
> BR,
> MM:axesmiley


 Intersting bit of testing you are doing. :thumb: 

Look forward to seeing your results and finding out what you are treating the blades with. My guess is it will help keep dust from collecting. That or it will increase dust collection. 
Only time will tell.


----------



## Memmento Mori

Glad that you are interested in this not very common topic 

I used the following product GYEON Q2 TRIM as my friend is using it on his car and is more than happy with the result.... What will be the result on a PC fan is the friend also curious 

Anyway I want to test it also on 1 Noctua fan in my synology NAS for 2 reasons:
1, The blades are not high polished and have a more common surface than the NB eloops
2, The fan spins 24/7 so the result should be faster than I will have with my PC as i dont run my PC 24/7..

And yes only time will tell

BR,
MM :axesmiley


----------



## Memmento Mori

As to the testing i mentioned above, just wanted to ask for some advice or recommendations.... as it takes more time as expected..

After a month there is still not enough dust on them to have it enough visible for the dusting test.

But here are more or les the steps i want to do it.

1, threat the blades with the coating (done)
2, get them dusty enough so that an clearly visible layer of dust is on them (in process)
3, take them out of the PC - i will take out the whole flex bay so i dont have to take them out separately (want to avoid any wiping of the blades or fans by mistake)
4, will fix the blades so they cant rotate...
5, take a picture of each front and back before dusting
6, going havoc with the datavac on them - contactless
7, take a picture of the result and comparing before and after...

I would be happy if anyone have any advice or comment to improve it.. 

BR,MM:axesmiley


----------



## JackCY

Connected to PERIF on EVGA PSU, where else since I got the splitter on purpose with the old useless molex to not waste any SATA cables. Molex has been used for decades and while it's an abomination of a connector I've yet to see one melted from too many HDDs connected etc. as those definitely consume more than even the high speed consumer fans.

5 port powered splitter.



Dremel vrrrrr vrrr.
3x140 mm front fans should be mandatory for any half decently designed case.


----------



## doyll

Memmento Mori said:


> As to the testing i mentioned above, just wanted to ask for some advice or recommendations.... as it takes more time as expected..
> 
> After a month there is still not enough dust on them to have it enough visible for the dusting test.
> 
> But here are more or les the steps i want to do it.
> 
> 1, threat the blades with the coating (done)
> 2, get them dusty enough so that an clearly visible layer of dust is on them (in process)
> 3, take them out of the PC - i will take out the whole flex bay so i dont have to take them out separately (want to avoid any wiping of the blades or fans by mistake)
> 4, will fix the blades so they cant rotate...
> 5, take a picture of each front and back before dusting
> 6, going havoc with the datavac on them - contactless
> 7, take a picture of the result and comparing before and after...
> 
> I would be happy if anyone have any advice or comment to improve it..
> 
> BR,MM:axesmiley


Interesting bit of experimenting / testing. Look forward to seeing how it all works out. 

Wow! Just googled GYEON Q2 trim kit is $50! Cazy expensive!




JackCY said:


> Connected to PERIF on EVGA PSU, where else since I got the splitter on purpose with the old useless molex to not waste any SATA cables. Molex has been used for decades and while it's an abomination of a connector I've yet to see one melted from too many HDDs connected etc. as those definitely consume more than even the high speed consumer fans.
> 
> 5 port powered splitter.
> 
> 
> 
> Dremel vrrrrr vrrr.
> 3x140 mm front fans should be mandatory for any half decently designed case.


Interesting! 

What case is it? 

Assume image is the front? 

How do you like your Arctic P fans compared to others (please name them) you've used?


----------



## JackCY

FD Define R4, once upon a time when it came out of the box only to start be cutting up shortly after and more properly later.

Some original pictures still on web, I don't have my own:
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/4...ck_pearl_mid_tower_chassis_review/index4.html

Pictures of the cut ups and changes:

https://www.overclock.net/forum/180...s/1712296-mod-dremel-redesign-define-rs4.html

I've posted in the Arctic thread before, I have 4x P14 PWM PST and 2x P12 PWM, they didn't run that much yet but I like their performance, noise profile (mostly, I think P14 PWM from zero PWM % was making a bit grunty noise but when PC starts I didn't notice it, only when trying to turn them off for fun with a PWM fan curve and them starting over and over when load happens), when they have unrestricted intake they push air straight behind them with this blade design, with restricted filtered angled intake not really and they struggle to have air as any fan and blow a bit of air around to the sides and not the straight stream behind them. Still considering how restricted the intake is, it's working fine.

Obviously I can easily open the door and have unrestricted intake instantly.



With the 4x 140mm P14 PWM as filtered intake it does finally seem to make a positive pressure inside when I left the rear open unfiltered, be it at idle or at load.

2x 120mm P12 PWM work well on my GPU:




The original FD fans were loud since day 1, motor noise. Gelid Silent 14 while fine as air forwarders are as poor as FD fans when it comes to dealing with restrictions.

The Arctic F14 is fine as forwarder but the P14 PWM are better, newer motor, less noise.

The Thermalright TY-147A of Macho Rev.A BW is kind of on it's way out, I don't like it's loose bearing and sometimes noise. I didn't notice or forgot when buying the P14 PWMs otherwise would have gotten 1 extra. It's not a bad stock fan for a cooler but the P14 PWM are newer and I think better. Considering modern CPUs are often limited by contacts and not by getting heat out of finstack, can't really test with my old 4 core which ever fan would be 1 C better on the cooler at similar noise level. All I know is that at full speed the P14 PWM blows straight through that cooler, had to wash it after it was running freely outside for a year+ full of fine dust, used P14 PWM to dry it out.

When at load and hot, if I open the front door eventually after short time it starts blowing cold air out the back of the case. With door closed and intake filtered the air comes out warm.
Even with only 3 filtered non pressure oriented intake fans while case would get warm at top rear it didn't struggle. Now it's still getting warm but that's just how it goes with dust filters and a front door.


Opening and closing the front door changes fan speed by 67 rpm when fans spin in the 1000-1200 rpm range, be it intake or exhaust fan. Surprisingly opening the front drops speed of the further GPU fan when there is more air going by it in fact to exhaust out the rear.
With fans not set to my usual low speed 500-750 rpm operation range but spinning around the 1000 rpm, the case doesn't warm up during GPU stress tests and all the hot air can make it out fine.


----------



## DiceAir

So I have a phanteks enthoo pro the old one without the side window. I'm running a aio on my gpu and has it as bottom as intake cause the only way of mounting it due to the tubes not being long enough. My fans is as follows. 

intake = botttom (radiator push/pull), Front 2x 120mm cougar vortex pwm,
Exhaust = Back stock 140mm and top 200mm (took it from the front and installed on top.
CPU cooler = Cooler master hyper 212x 

Currently when gaming or stress testing my cpu (6700k 4.5GHz 1.3V) runs between 40C to 75 max but average about 50-65C when gaming on stress test goes to 75-80C max. My gpu runs 45-50C max and sometimes goes only to 43C. Now I know i can just leave my case fans as it is cause my cooling is really good for what i have but I was thinking will it be better to have the 200mm fan as intake or leave as exhaust. Having to flip it around is a pain in the butt due to the way it has to be mounted. I have another oldish pc with 2x 12mm cougar vortex installed that I used as media server before the psu broke so I might be able to snatch the 2x 120mm and use that on top or do you think I should just leave everything as it is.

So I don't know if top intake will be better cause I've been searching online and some people say top intake while others say top and rear exhaust so i don't know. I wouldn't mind a few extra degrees cooler temps on my cpu or even gpu.


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> So I have a phanteks enthoo pro the old one without the side window. I'm running a aio on my gpu and has it as bottom as intake cause the only way of mounting it due to the tubes not being long enough. My fans is as follows.
> 
> intake = botttom (radiator push/pull), Front 2x 120mm cougar vortex pwm,
> Exhaust = Back stock 140mm and top 200mm (took it from the front and installed on top.
> CPU cooler = Cooler master hyper 212x
> 
> Currently when gaming or stress testing my cpu (6700k 4.5GHz 1.3V) runs between 40C to 75 max but average about 50-65C when gaming on stress test goes to 75-80C max. My gpu runs 45-50C max and sometimes goes only to 43C. Now I know i can just leave my case fans as it is cause my cooling is really good for what i have but I was thinking will it be better to have the 200mm fan as intake or leave as exhaust. Having to flip it around is a pain in the butt due to the way it has to be mounted. I have another oldish pc with 2x 12mm cougar vortex installed that I used as media server before the psu broke so I might be able to snatch the 2x 120mm and use that on top or do you think I should just leave everything as it is.
> 
> So I don't know if top intake will be better cause I've been searching online and some people say top intake while others say top and rear exhaust so i don't know. I wouldn't mind a few extra degrees cooler temps on my cpu or even gpu.


First I'll warn you about something you probably know; your GPU CLC is mounted in the worst possible orientation because it's highest point (where air collects) is the pump. Over time system looses coolant through hoses and air that collect in it will all be in pump. Eventually it will likely start making noise, then after while die. 

The stock 120mm and 140mm Phanteks case fans are quite good. Don't know which ones you has as early cases came with fans with PH-F140SP impeller and newer ones have PH-F140MP impeller. Their 200mm fan is absolutely horrible! I won't use them for anything. I tried using one to move air around my desk area and it couldn't even do that. I would unplug. My guess is same temps with less noise. I would remove all unused PCIe back slot covers to increase rear venting and hopefully more warmed air coming off of bottom rad back and out of case. Cougar Vortex PWM are pretty good as front intakes, but you need to block all openings in fan mounting panel so air fans push into motherboard compartment can't leak around fan and go in circles) will give you much better case airflow.

What cooler do you have on CPU?

Did you read 5th post in this thread? It's a basic guide to case airflow and how to monitor air temp entering coolers.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> First I'll warn you about something you probably know; your GPU CLC is mounted in the worst possible orientation because it's highest point (where air collects) is the pump. Over time system looses coolant through hoses and air that collect in it will all be in pump. Eventually it will likely start making noise, then after while die.
> 
> The stock 120mm and 140mm Phanteks case fans are quite good. Don't know which ones you has as early cases came with fans with PH-F140SP impeller and newer ones have PH-F140MP impeller. Their 200mm fan is absolutely horrible! I won't use them for anything. I tried using one to move air around my desk area and it couldn't even do that. I would unplug. My guess is same temps with less noise. I would remove all unused PCIe back slot covers to increase rear venting and hopefully more warmed air coming off of bottom rad back and out of case. Cougar Vortex PWM are pretty good as front intakes, but you need to block all openings in fan mounting panel so air fans push into motherboard compartment can't leak around fan and go in circles) will give you much better case airflow.
> 
> What cooler do you have on CPU?
> 
> Did you read 5th post in this thread? It's a basic guide to case airflow and how to monitor air temp entering coolers.



Ok so do you have any suggestions where to place my CLC? It's an h75 so I sit with a problem where I don't even think it will reach the front of my case.

The included fan is the PH-F140SP. I have a 2-4C drop with the 200mm fan on top and can feel the hot air coming out on top when playing games like warzone, Rainbow six siege etc. The problem with the cougar fans is I can't mount it at the top as it's making a ticking noise unless I have it as intake at the top. I still have my hdd cage installed at the front as I have 2x hdd installed. I don't mind noise as long as it's a airy sound and not a high pitch motor sound like my stock h75 fans is a bit noisy but I can still live with it. I will for now quickly try removing the back pci-e brackets to see what it does.

Thanks for the help so far


*UPDATE* Just a quick update I can't mount my gpu clc front or top due to the pipes not being long enough. The only place is bottom or back. On my old case I had it lower as the pump for a year or so no issues. Had it in front bottom


*UPDATE2 *so now I moved my back fan as intake at bottom and moved the radiator as exhaust at he back cause having it as intake at the back I think will increase my cpu temp a lot. My cpu cooler is hyper 212x. When doing a private match on modern warfare my gpu runs 48-50c now so for me it's low enough. at least my gpu radiator is above my gpu pump now. Do you think I should have 120/140mm top as intake or exhaust. Currently top is exhaust and think it's working against the radiator fans. When putting my hands on top of my case he air coming out on top is rather cool so makes me think intake at low speeds mihtbe better


----------



## ciarlatano

DiceAir said:


> *UPDATE* Just a quick update I can't mount my gpu clc front or top due to the pipes not being long enough. The only place is bottom or back. On my old case I had it lower as the pump for a year or so no issues. Had it in front bottom


Mount it in the rear as exhaust. The temp differences on the GPU will be negligible and inconsequential, and it won't be disrupting the rest of your components. Easy peazy....


----------



## DiceAir

ciarlatano said:


> Mount it in the rear as exhaust. The temp differences on the GPU will be negligible and inconsequential, and it won't be disrupting the rest of your components. Easy peazy....


already did that although temps is fine I'm still not 100% happy. My max temps is 50C so far but the problem is when watching a movie etc my temps can go to 40C easily. So I don't know if top intake would help


----------



## Owterspace

If you are chasing C's it will help. If you are using your case exhaust to cool your GPU I would assume stuffing more air in the case would make your GPU even happier, at least if not your GPU than maybe your CPU will appreciate it since you have a 212 strapped to it. I am running 5 in 2 out at varied speeds and voltages in my R4. My 980 is sitting at 26c while I write this post.. but my max temp varies from bench to bench and game to game. Usually not more than 60.. Winter is coming so I wont be too far off from that max temp  

I've got 4x 120x38 and 1x TY-147B as intake, and 1x 120x38 and a 92x35 between my GPU and PSU exhausting. Works great. This is a speed step and filter free setup..


----------



## DiceAir

Owterspace said:


> If you are chasing C's it will help. If you are using your case exhaust to cool your GPU I would assume stuffing more air in the case would make your GPU even happier, at least if not your GPU than maybe your CPU will appreciate it since you have a 212 strapped to it. I am running 5 in 2 out at varied speeds and voltages in my R4. My 980 is sitting at 26c while I write this post.. but my max temp varies from bench to bench and game to game. Usually not more than 60.. Winter is coming so I wont be too far off from that max temp
> 
> I've got 4x 120x38 and 1x TY-147B as intake, and 1x 120x38 and a 92x35 between my GPU and PSU exhausting. Works great. This is a speed step and filter free setup..


I'm not chasing C's under load but C's to be lower under idle. Now that I have the radiator at the back as exhaust and tried intake doesn't work for me. So maybe just have to accept the fact that my gpu will run as it is.

The main problem for me is that my gpu let's say when watching a video 720p or 1080p will go up and up and up to about 44c when I had it at the bottom my gpu was running 37-40C max with lower fan speeds but then I have the issue


*UPDATE: *Ok so I installed my radiator kinda in front just above the hdd cage. No screws attached just having it sit and it doesn't move so the front fans bring cool air into the case also assisting my gpu.

*My cooling setup for now is: 

Intake:* front 2x cougar vortex pwm 120mm, Stock fan that I took from the back as intake bottom, 2x stock corsair old version of the h75.
*Exhaust:* Rear cougar vortex pwm 120mm

I know the cougar is not meant to be exhaust but I was for now a bit lazy to move the stock fan at the back again. I also reduced the speed of the stock fan to it's lowest possible speed of 1000rpm so don't know if it's actually doing something but at least very quiet. I just wish I could change the stock fans on the corsair with the same or better airflow and me being from South Africa not going to be easy to get that as stock is very limited. Also for now my temps seems fine better than before when I had it as exhaust and all my fans running lower speed for now.

Sorry for the long post but do you think my bottom fan is actually doing something. I suppose it's bringing fresh air on the little fan on my kraken g12 assisting vrm temps a bit.


----------



## doyll

Generally front and bottom intake fans with all PCIe back slot covers remvoed work best. This gives us more exhaust vent area in back of case for better front to back airflow to move components' heated exhaust on back and out. This keeps cool air going to components from mixing with heated component exhaust so components get coolest are for lower temps and at lower fan speeds. Block all openings in intake fan mounting panels not covered by intake fans to the airflow they are pushing into case moving on though case and out, not leaking around intake fans and going in circles. With this kind of case airflow no exhaust fans are even needed. Use more fans as exhaust usually only increases noise levels. 

GPU at 40c when watching videos is not bad. What is fan speed at 40c?


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> Generally front and bottom intake fans with all PCIe back slot covers remvoed work best. This gives us more exhaust vent area in back of case for better front to back airflow to move components' heated exhaust on back and out. This keeps cool air going to components from mixing with heated component exhaust so components get coolest are for lower temps and at lower fan speeds. Block all openings in intake fan mounting panels not covered by intake fans to the airflow they are pushing into case moving on though case and out, not leaking around intake fans and going in circles. With this kind of case airflow no exhaust fans are even needed. Use more fans as exhaust usually only increases noise levels.
> 
> GPU at 40c when watching videos is not bad. What is fan speed at 40c?



@40c it's 1200-1500rpm but the problem is it keeps rising. Sorry If you mention it in your original post section but how do I block of the vents. I planning on blocking off the extra amount on the intake. I have vents just below the hdd cage to install another 140mm fan but can't dude to hd cage in the way so maybe blocking that off will also help. I was thinking of just using clear tape to mas off the areas in front not covered by a fan from the outside of the case.


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> @40c it's 1200-1500rpm but the problem is it keeps rising. Sorry If you mention it in your original post section but how do I block of the vents. I planning on blocking off the extra amount on the intake. I have vents just below the hdd cage to install another 140mm fan but can't dude to hd cage in the way so maybe blocking that off will also help. I was thinking of just using clear tape to mas off the areas in front not covered by a fan from the outside of the case.


Sounds like case airflow is not staying constant, but being warmed up by component heat. 
Are you monitoring air temp entering components? 1st post and 5th post this thread are about monitoring air temp and optimizing case airflow.

Use your head for something besides a hat rack! Couple easy ways are with tape, or paper cut to fit and attached with glue stick, 
Block the panel dividing motherboard compartment from fan intake area (area with filter).

You can remove the two 5.25" bay covers mount intake fans from top of HDD cage all the way to top of case using 2x 5.25" base as intake venting. 

How old is H75?


----------



## doyll

Edit: Original Enthoo Pro has 3x 5.25" bays. That is probably enough room to put a 140mm intake in. So you could have 2x unobstructed 140mm front intakes moving air front to back through case. I would try blocking top vent (use a couple books) so the cool air the front intakes are pushing into case can't go right out the top not helping cooling at all. This should improve front to back flow.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> Edit: Original Enthoo Pro has 3x 5.25" bays. That is probably enough room to put a 140mm intake in. So you could have 2x unobstructed 140mm front intakes moving air front to back through case. I would try blocking top vent (use a couple books) so the cool air the front intakes are pushing into case can't go right out the top not helping cooling at all. This should improve front to back flow.


I will first try putting books on top of the case and I blocked off using some tape now so will see when I game how it performs


----------



## doyll

Honestly, the best tool for optimizing case airflow is a remote sensor digital thermometer with sensor put a few inches in front of cooler fan. This constantly shows us what air temp is entering cooler in. 

You really need at least 2x 120mm front intakes. One where 200mm fan was and if you can fit it another next to it. Remove 3x 5.25" bay covers and put a 120mm or 140mm intake fan there. Often optical mounting area is big enough for 140mm fan to just fit. I've mounted fans in them using some foam to bind them in nice and tight. Fan in optial bays flows cool air directly to CPU cooler, then on to rear exhaust vent so will help supply cooler air to radiator mounted there.. 

Been a long time sense I build Enthoo Pro, but I think Silverstonetek makes a magnetic mounting filter with tape-on magnet ring that fit's over 3x 5.25" bays 5.25" bays are 41.4mm x 133.5mm. That means 3x 5.25" bays make a 124.6x133.5mm opening and 140mm filters are 140x140mm of filter area so easily cover opening.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> Honestly, the best tool for optimizing case airflow is a remote sensor digital thermometer with sensor put a few inches in front of cooler fan. This constantly shows us what air temp is entering cooler in.
> 
> You really need at least 2x 120mm front intakes. One where 200mm fan was and if you can fit it another next to it. Remove 3x 5.25" bay covers and put a 120mm or 140mm intake fan there. Often optical mounting area is big enough for 140mm fan to just fit. I've mounted fans in them using some foam to bind them in nice and tight. Fan in optial bays flows cool air directly to CPU cooler, then on to rear exhaust vent so will help supply cooler air to radiator mounted there..
> 
> Been a long time sense I build Enthoo Pro, but I think Silverstonetek makes a magnetic mounting filter with tape-on magnet ring that fit's over 3x 5.25" bays 5.25" bays are 41.4mm x 133.5mm. That means 3x 5.25" bays make a 124.6x133.5mm opening and 140mm filters are 140x140mm of filter area so easily cover opening.



Ok I have this lying around. Can maybe see if I can take off the fan and mount it on the inside of the 5.25" bay to adapt it to give me fresh air. 









Coolermaster Stacker 4 in 3 Module Hard Drive Enclosure 8.9 cm (3.5 Inches) : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories


Buy



www.amazon.co.uk





Oh and btw not worried about cpu temps. The initial problem was that I have to run my gpu AIO at to high speeds to keep temps from rising. My cpu temps is fine now and I played a bit and with my fans set to 85% max and GPU AIO is also not going full blast under load anymore and according to msi afterburner max gpu temps was 52C. Do you think adding the fan at the 5.25" bay will help with gpu temps or just cpu? my CPU runs under 60C (between 40-50 and sometimes as low as under 40C and 60C max) when playing cpu Modern warfare and that's ok for me. Will not mind cooler temps if that will help gpu temps.


----------



## doyll

With H75 exhausting out the back, the more front to back case airflow we can get going the lower air temp entering your H75 should be. 

I normally set fans to be ramping up but inaudible to about 70c, the ramp more aggressively to full speed at about 80c. That's with CPUs that start throttling at 95-100c 

Another option might be for H75 to intake air from back for cooler air. Probably put fan on outside of back vent pushing into radiator so there is more room for h75 exhaust to turn up an flow on out of case without mixing with cool air going to H212. If I was to do something like that I would turn H212 to flow from bottom to top of case and probably put a cardboard divider between rear side of cooler and H75 so air coming out of H75 doesn't go into 212.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> With H75 exhausting out the back, the more front to back case airflow we can get going the lower air temp entering your H75 should be.
> 
> I normally set fans to be ramping up but inaudible to about 70c, the ramp more aggressively to full speed at about 80c. That's with CPUs that start throttling at 95-100c
> 
> Another option might be for H75 to intake air from back for cooler air. Probably put fan on outside of back vent pushing into radiator so there is more room for h75 exhaust to turn up an flow on out of case without mixing with cool air going to H212. If I was to do something like that I would turn H212 to flow from bottom to top of case and probably put a cardboard divider between rear side of cooler and H75 so air coming out of H75 doesn't go into 212.



Having it at the back is the worst place according to my testing exhaust or intake. Having it like I have it now is best so far just lying on top of the hdd cage having one of the front fan bringing air in and the radiator sucking air pushing towards the case. CPU temps not bad.


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> Having it at the back is the worst place according to my testing exhaust or intake. Having it like I have it now is best so far just lying on top of the hdd cage having one of the front fan bringing air in and the radiator sucking air pushing towards the case. CPU temps not bad.


That should work okay. Ideally set radiator so the in/out manifold tank is at bottom and other manifold tank is at top and above waterblock/pump. That way any air in CLC will collect and stay in top tank of radiator and not in pump.  Radiator in front like that should be getting air at room temp. Just need to be sure H212 is getting cool air too and you are golden. 

Maybe use some strap metal and make 'L' brackets that mount onto radiator and onto hdd cage to give it a good solid mount.


----------



## DiceAir

So tested again and from what I find is high speed is not always better by the looks of it. I can get away with lower speed on my radiator and fans without temps rising to much. Was playing some games last night and my temps went to only 50C. Will test out flight simulator today and I know that can be taxing on the gpu but will test other games as well and see how different fan speeds affect performance. Maybe I can get away with lower fan speeds.


I completely forgot that i have access to a 3dprinter so can maybe 3dprint a bracket that converts 3x5.25" bays into fan mount. I have a grill as well from an old psu that I can install for safety.


----------



## Memmento Mori

Memmento Mori said:


> Dear Gents,
> 
> was looking for a specific information: hydrophobic coating of PC fans, does it makes cleaning them from dust easier? Im not using dust filters as the airflow is more important for me, and my experience is that even with the best dust filters you will never prevent the finest dust to compile in your case and you need to sacrifice the airflow ....
> 
> Im just looking for a way to make the cleaning easier. Im using an duster but anyway the finest dust sticks with the fan blades and creates an white/grey layer on them (mainly on the backside of the blades), you need to wipe it of them.... For cars are plenty of hydrophobic coatings for plastic parts and you basically just need to "shower" the dirt of it. For this reason I used on 1 fan the hydrophobic coating and now letting the fans get dusty  At this moment im using NB Eloops which have high polished surface of the blades. What I noticed is that the coating repaired the micro scratches on the surface. After some time I will make some photos before the dusting and after it, to compare the results without wiping just "blowing" the fans.
> 
> Would be glad if you share your experience or thoughts...
> 
> And I hope it is not much off-topic to post it here
> 
> All the best.
> 
> BR,
> MM:axesmiley


So finally I have some results of the experiment....

Methodology simple as previously stated:
1, threat the blades with the coating ( actually aplyed it just on the center fan)
2, get them dusty enough so that an clearly visible layer of dust is on them (i let them untouched for almost 2 months)
3, take them out of the PC - i will take out the whole flex bay so i dont have to take them out separately (want to avoid any wiping of the blades or fans by mistake)
4, will fix the blades so they cant rotate...
5, take a picture of each front and back before dusting
6, going havoc with the datavac on them - contactless
7, take a picture of the result and comparing before and after...

So here are some pictures:

1, bottom fan front/back BD (before dusting):














2, center fan front/back BD:














3, top fan front/back BD:














4, Fixation of blades:








5, bottom fan front/back AD (after dusting):














continue next post (limitation of 10 pics per post lol)


----------



## Memmento Mori

6, center fan front/back AD:














7, top fan front/back AD:














8, here I wiped just with the finger a bit to see the difference between just dusted and wiped...

/botom  / center / top





















I know it is not a professional scientific approach or result so dont blame me for that. 

On the pictures you can see some difference between the coated and uncoated fans and to be honest in real the difference is much more visible. Yes it does not prevent the dust to pile up on the fan but it will save you time with cleaning it.

The question if it is worth the investment of time to coat the fans to safe some time on cleaning after installation in the case depends on your preference.... 

BR,
MM


----------



## doyll

Nice bit of research!

Does the cost come off easier on treated than non-treated impellers?


----------



## Memmento Mori

doyll said:


> Nice bit of research!
> 
> Does the cost come off easier on treated than non-treated impellers?


Well i thing that it depends on which perspective you look at it. The cost of ca.50 USD for the trim and the time investment needs to be considered by the user as each has his own preference and specific case/setup.

Im not using any kind of filters in my case and custom case filters for my Caselabs SM8 are also not cheap and you have to sacrifice some airflow/cooling performance. And even with the filters the finest dust finds its way in and will compile on the fans.

Trimmed fans will look cleaner with just blowing the case and fans for a longer time than the non-trimmed one. And for me it is worth the investment….


----------



## doyll

So treatment is good to have, but price is prohibitive. Thanks for your fine testing and review.


----------



## Shenhua

In process of doing a mod for RAM cooling....

Looks like RAM despite not running at very high levels of OC or voltage, it's becoming very sensitive to temperature, when very tight.
Me and my brother have 2 kits of gskill trindent z 3600 cl16 (b-die), and both kits at 3200 cl14-14-14-26/28-40/42-256/264 -1 1.35v become unstable after 50°C, which as reported by many. Seems to be true.

Last time when i asked about it, i honestly didnt find almost anything about fans over ram. Random answers, no results for reference. Just some ideas here and there.

So now, even tho it's just preliminary testing and the error rate is high since is not scientifically conducted, the results are high enough to talk about them. We bought 2 of these: AVC DE07015B12L (im from Europe/ Spain)
They're 70x15mm 3600rpm ball bearing pwm fans. For reference and by ear 2 of these at 2600 rpm make about the same noise as 2x120mm silent wings at 1100rpm. If I'm not wrong, this is the same fan mounted on the cooler that comes with the 3000g.

Without even mounting them, sitting them on top of the back plate of the GPU, at 1cm of the RAM and only covering 3/4 of the RAM, since they were sitting lower, the drop was, just straight up 10°C, from 46 to 36 and from 44 to 34.However the CPU temps got about 5-6°C worst.
I regret not taking a picture of them in the PC. These are the fans









So yeah. This is working. It doesn't come without it's cons, but it's definitely working, and very well, even at very low temps, the difference will still be significant, which was my main concern, because the lower the temps, the harder is to reduce them.

Edit.:
Looks like my brother already made a bracket for them from a power supply case.










Edit.: He is reporting a 9-10ºC improvement aswell. Looks like he is not having any temp. difference in CPU and other components. It makes sense since his case is a define S without front panel and 1000rpm 3x140 nf a14 frontal intake and he has a nh d15 with 2 fans at 1000rpm, compared to my meshify C with 2x140mm sw3+120mm frontal intake at 600rpm, with the foam filter removed, and a nh d15 with midle fan at 500rpm.
Larger case, more force in the front to back airflow, probably better placement of the small fans....... Looks like he is having no drawbacks so far. So results may vary in other builds, but drop in RAM temps seems to be always there.


----------



## Memmento Mori

doyll said:


> So treatment is good to have, but price is prohibitive. Thanks for your fine testing and review.


Yes it is a nice to have, not that you cant live without it. Regarding the price to be prohibitive ? yes&no at the same time as it is a matter of perspective you look at it... For example if you have a car (for which the coating is meant and works perfectly on headlights) than you have an additional benefit of the product....

Another benefit I see for example in the workstation builds where the systems are running 24/7 - easier cleaning if you coat the fans before you mount them in... Or Graphic cards cooler fans, they are hard to clean from the back side, and you have to demount them to clean them properly, this way you coat them and have just to blow away the dust, this way you expand the time line and postpone the necessity of demoting them for cleaning purposes.... Same for WC radiator fans.... I wanted to find an easier way to clean them so you dont have to disassemble them.....

I will later on share also some pictures of a noctua fan spinning in a NAS, the only thing is I have just 1 fan which is coated and dont have another 1 for comparison of the results and forgot to take a picture after blowing and before coating....

The difference is also the surface of the blades as the NB-eloops have a high "piano" finish of the blades, where the noctua has the more common "rough" finish of the blade surface....


----------



## hazium233

I don't imagine the Skiron fans have had many detailed reviews?

Been kicking around the idea of upsizing my case a bit since I have the Meshify C nearly filled with drives and a 300mm GPU.

Getting to the point, had been looking at the P600S or the P500A (and sort of at some others). One notable difference is that the P600S comes with the "premium" 140mm case fan which is the 140SP/MP hybrid fan, but the P500A has Skiron based fans.

Not sure how reliable the MTBF ratings were, but Skiron 140mm PWM is listed at 40,000hr, vs 150,000 for F140SP retail. The fans in the P500A are 3 pin, so no clue how different it is from the PWM. I do see complaints about the noise on these Skiron fans at higher revs. I know official specs may not be perfect, but would think from a single manufacturer might be comparable. In this case the Skiron seems to only gain a couple CFM vs an F140SP with 10dBA more noise and less static pressure rating, using 300 more revs.

I suppose these were made for price point and maybe to look "cool." I imagine the P500A would be on top of noise normalized thermal test at gamersnexus if it had the F140SP/MP case fan.

I don't know where prices settle out, but I suppose for the $40 difference between a P500A base and the P600S non-window the Skirons can easily be replaced. There is a seller offering the 140SP/MP in groups of 5 on ebay for about $40 in fact. Otherwise TY-147A seems to be available for about $11 from one ebayer near constantly. Or of course the fans that will not be named could be had in a 5-pack too.


----------



## ciarlatano

hazium233 said:


> I don't imagine the Skiron fans have had many detailed reviews?
> 
> Been kicking around the idea of upsizing my case a bit since I have the Meshify C nearly filled with drives and a 300mm GPU.
> 
> Getting to the point, had been looking at the P600S or the P500A (and sort of at some others). One notable difference is that the P600S comes with the "premium" 140mm case fan which is the 140SP/MP hybrid fan, but the P500A has Skiron based fans.
> 
> Not sure how reliable the MTBF ratings were, but Skiron 140mm PWM is listed at 40,000hr, vs 150,000 for F140SP retail. The fans in the P500A are 3 pin, so no clue how different it is from the PWM. I do see complaints about the noise on these Skiron fans at higher revs. I know official specs may not be perfect, but would think from a single manufacturer might be comparable. In this case the Skiron seems to only gain a couple CFM vs an F140SP with 10dBA more noise and less static pressure rating, using 300 more revs.
> 
> I suppose these were made for price point and maybe to look "cool." I imagine the P500A would be on top of noise normalized thermal test at gamersnexus if it had the F140SP/MP case fan.
> 
> I don't know where prices settle out, but I suppose for the $40 difference between a P500A base and the P600S non-window the Skirons can easily be replaced. There is a seller offering the 140SP/MP in groups of 5 on ebay for about $40 in fact. Otherwise TY-147A seems to be available for about $11 from one ebayer near constantly. Or of course the fans that will not be named could be had in a 5-pack too.


I haven't used the Skirons, but a couple of people I know have and they were very unhappy with them, citing dismal performance and unpleasant sound signature. Take it for what it's worth since it's second hand info, but the specs on them are pretty abysmal. So, a 5-pack of Kool-Aid Arctic would likely be a big improvement.


----------



## doyll

[IMG alt="Memmento Mori"]https://www.overclock.net/d3/avatars/m/518/518092.jpg?1599324514[/IMG]

*Memmento Mori*

I used to use similar product on my cars. They help move rain drops off of windscreen and also help keep bugs from sticking .. making it easier to wash them off. 









*hazium233*

Keep in mind airflow specification is airflow with absolutely no restrictions. Even less restrictions than if fan was setting on table and blowing air across it *at full speed*. Static pressure is how much pressure fan can push into a sealed container *at full speed*. Generally the higher the pressure rating of a fan the better it can flow air in our applications as case and/or cooler fans. Fans with higher pressure ratings can overcome way more resistance than low pressure rated fans. More pressure means more pushing ability, and more pushing ability means it can push more air through / around things.

If you are like me your system rarely runs fans at full speed. 

As far as I know new Phanteks cases come with same 1300rpm motor and housing with MP impeller instead of older SP/XP impeller. The impeller is optimized for more pressure.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> I used to use similar product on my cars. They help move rain drops off of windscreen and also help keep bugs from sticking .. making it easier to wash them off.


Good point, and in the US RainX is cheap. A $6 bottle would probably do 100+ applications on fans.


----------



## DiceAir

Ok so I've been running for since last post. I've closed of the front and bottom not covered With fans with some duct tape. Also used duct tape on my top panel from the inside of the case and it works. Oh and I also swapped my cpu Fan on the hyper212x with an extra Cougar vortex pwm and it works better than stock fan with much lower noise. My CPU never goes above 65C but very very very rarely spikes to 70C for less than a second. 


When playing Modern warfare being it warzone or multiplayer my fans on my cpu and case doesn't even go full speed it runs 30-55C and 65C max in most demanding situations that's not very often. My GPU max goes to 53C oh and I have all my case fans set to 75% that's 1100-1200rpm for my front and back fans and 1450-1500rpm for my gpu(stock old h75 fans) CPU I have set to go max 90% but will ramp up down according to cpu package temps and gpu static 70%. Bottom fan is still the 140mm phanteks fan static at 1000RPM under idle and load

On idle my fans on my gpu doesn't go as high anymore when watching 1080p video files to around 40-43C and 29C when doing nothing. I have set my fans to 50% static with case fans spinning at 550-600rpm, gpu at 1000-1100rpm. CPU fan never goes above 1300rpm average about 1100rpm and lower.

So all in all very happy but won't mind anything else I can do to improve temps. For now I'm happy with noise vs performance.


Thanks Doyll for all the help so far.


----------



## doyll

No problem. Thanks for letting us know how it all turned out.


----------



## doyll

*DiceAir*
It's a little over 3 months now sense you last posted. Assume everything is going well?


----------



## Memmento Mori

Just out of curiosity, dont want to step in your communication but it seems that DiceAir replied 1 month ago and you replied to him ......


----------



## doyll

You are correct and I'm wrong.  In my defence I was just starting my day and only had 2 sips of coffee when I posted no hadn't even woke up completely.


----------



## Memmento Mori

Everything is fine not blaming anyone, was just wondering ..... and based on this we see that you rly care when you advice someone....

And I have the same with coffee, for this reason i got from my girlfriend a T-shirt where is the following stated:

" Hocus Pocus I need coffee to focus " 

And have to say that i love to wear it at work


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> *DiceAir*
> It's a little over 3 months now sense you last posted. Assume everything is going well?


No problem. Everything is fine. I'm happy with the modding I did. Only 1 thing is I need to upgrade my whole rig cause 6700k is not 100% enough for an new the new amd or nvidia graphics cards


----------



## Owterspace

I betcha a 6700K is better than a 3770K 

Love that T-shirt. I am the same way, and some days it really shows in my posts. It all ties in with my lack of being able to sleep somehow I'm sure.


----------



## doyll

Good to hear *DiceAir *I'm running i7 6700 and Ryzen 5 3600. 3600 is only a little better running single core apps, but running multi-core apps is where 3600 really shines .. and uses less power too. Rendering graphics is where I see most difference.

What* Owterspace* said about 3770K vs 6700K is true.


----------



## jayfkay

doyll what sort of temps are you getting on your 6700k, idle and gaming load?

also, I've seen someone fawn over the TY-147 or whatever they are called earlier. its unjustified. these old fans are overhyped. same with gentle typhoons - probably still good but I have seen them outperformed by newer fans and also they have awful noise levels due to their bearings.
Arctic P12 or P14 PWMs will do about any job just as well or better. These fans have a great balance of pressure and streamlined air flow.
For a single exhaust fan the B-12PS might be one of the best for the job. 

I haven't build my "new" pc yet but I am also considering placing a smaller fan underneath the GPU as additional exhaust. That should definitely help reduce GPU temperatures further, especially since I got a ****ty blow fan gpu.


----------



## DiceAir

jayfkay said:


> doyll what sort of temps are you getting on your 6700k, idle and gaming load?
> 
> also, I've seen someone fawn over the TY-147 or whatever they are called earlier. its unjustified. these old fans are overhyped. same with gentle typhoons - probably still good but I have seen them outperformed by newer fans and also they have awful noise levels due to their bearings.
> Arctic P12 or P14 PWMs will do about any job just as well or better. These fans have a great balance of pressure and streamlined air flow.
> For a single exhaust fan the B-12PS might be one of the best for the job.
> 
> I haven't build my "new" pc yet but I am also considering placing a smaller fan underneath the GPU as additional exhaust. That should definitely help reduce GPU temperatures further, especially since I got a ****ty blow fan gpu.


Sorry what you mean small fan underneath gpu as exaust? I thought bottom fan should be intake


----------



## jayfkay

DiceAir said:


> Sorry what you mean small fan underneath gpu as exaust? I thought bottom fan should be intake


Hm yeah I suppose the Meshify and P400A have an optional 120 at the bottom, but IDK if thats a good idea.
I mean underneath behind the GPU, as a secondary exhaust fan below the standard exhaust. Where the other PCI brackets are, ya know? Since the GPU is pointing (and blowing) hot air downwards this would help suck it out.


----------



## doyll

jayfkay said:


> doyll what sort of temps are you getting on your 6700k, idle and gaming load?
> 
> also, I've seen someone fawn over the TY-147 or whatever they are called earlier. its unjustified. these old fans are overhyped. same with gentle typhoons - probably still good but I have seen them outperformed by newer fans and also they have awful noise levels due to their bearings.
> Arctic P12 or P14 PWMs will do about any job just as well or better. These fans have a great balance of pressure and streamlined air flow.
> For a single exhaust fan the B-12PS might be one of the best for the job.
> 
> I haven't build my "new" pc yet but I am also considering placing a smaller fan underneath the GPU as additional exhaust. That should definitely help reduce GPU temperatures further, especially since I got a ****ty blow fan gpu.


I don't game but system works hard rendering.
Idle is mid 20s to low 30s, rendering graphics is 63-68c with fans spinning just fast enough to be heard with computer on side of desk. Just to be clear this is TY-147A SQ fan case fans and TY-147A on cooler.

Your statements lead me to believe you have not use TY series fans, probably not GTs either, except maybe some old ones. Also seems you have a chip on your shoulder. TY-147 bearings are "Enhanced Hyper-Flow Bearing" (EHFB) which are basically a sleeve bearing which is silent. GTs have ball bearings that are not at all noisy, but can be heard if ear is almost touching fan as they get older. Old doesn't make things bad.  Many companies still use same impeller design.

Arctic P series have good specs and do well, at least in short term. We will not know how well they last for a few more years. 

Fan below GPU as rear exhaust will rob GPU fan nearest back of air. I've found using no exhaust fans, removing all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear venting around GPU and using good high pressure intake fans in front and maybe bottom works very well. But all opening not covered by intake fans in front half of case need to be blocked of so air fans push into case has to flow through case and out, not leak out around fans and go in circles. 5th post this thread is about airflow and how to optimize case airflow. Testing is key to getting best cooling with quiet system.

Sounds like you have a blower GPU cooler, which means only way to make it really quiet is change coolers. Blowers don't move air without making noise.


----------



## paskowitz

Haven't really paid attention to fans in a while. What's the best black, 120mm, radiator fan ATM? I have eLoops and quite like them (great <1000rpm), but I only use them in push config. Look for a fan that is good in push as well as pull. Arctic P12 seems to be the best perf/$.


----------



## jayfkay

doyll said:


> I don't game but system works hard rendering.
> Idle is mid 20s to low 30s, rendering graphics is 63-68c with fans spinning just fast enough to be heard with computer on side of desk. Just to be clear this is TY-147A SQ fan case fans and TY-147A on cooler.
> 
> Your statements lead me to believe you have not use TY series fans, probably not GTs either, except maybe some old ones. Also seems you have a chip on your shoulder. TY-147 bearings are "Enhanced Hyper-Flow Bearing" (EHFB) which are basically a sleeve bearing which is silent. GTs have ball bearings that are not at all noisy, but can be heard if ear is almost touching fan as they get older. Old doesn't make things bad.  Many companies still use same impeller design.
> 
> Arctic P series have good specs and do well, at least in short term. We will not know how well they last for a few more years.
> 
> Fan below GPU as rear exhaust will rob GPU fan nearest back of air. I've found using no exhaust fans, removing all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear venting around GPU and using good high pressure intake fans in front and maybe bottom works very well. But all opening not covered by intake fans in front half of case need to be blocked of so air fans push into case has to flow through case and out, not leak out around fans and go in circles. 5th post this thread is about airflow and how to optimize case airflow. Testing is key to getting best cooling with quiet system.
> 
> Sounds like you have a blower GPU cooler, which means only way to make it really quiet is change coolers. Blowers don't move air without making noise.


Gentle noise: *



*Then at 7:40 he tests for noise normalized thermal performance on a radiator.
I also read and watched countless other reviews and detailed benchmarks. There are multiple complaints about the noise levels of Gentle Typhoons if you read into the topic.

There is also these two, which concluded Arctic to be the best, but GT or YT were not tested.









But if you are gonna tell me that say a GT or YT-147 or a Phanteks MP140 would perform better in a case or as radiator fans, then I will try them.


----------



## ciarlatano

jayfkay said:


> Gentle noise: *
> 
> 
> 
> *Then at 7:40 he tests for noise normalized thermal performance on a radiator......


Any chance we can have a thread on OCN not dragged into the land of Arctic P Kool Aid? I'm not saying there is any issue with them, but they really don't need to be inserted into every thread. There are already several threads where they are the original and main topic of conversation.


----------



## jayfkay

ciarlatano said:


> Any chance we can have a thread on OCN not dragged into the land of Arctic P Kool Aid? I'm not saying there is any issue with them, but they really don't need to be inserted into every thread. There are already several threads where they are the original and main topic of conversation.


Award for most pointless reply today goes to...


----------



## doyll

jayfkay said:


> Gentle noise:
> Then at 7:40 he tests for noise normalized thermal performance on a radiator.
> I also read and watched countless other reviews and detailed benchmarks.
> 
> There is also these two, which concluded Arctic to be the best, but GT or YT were not tested.
> 
> But if you are gonna tell me that say a GT or YT-147 or a Phanteks MP140 would perform better in a case or as radiator fans, then I will try them.


Sorry, I have no fan suggestions for you. 
Thermalbench fan tests and reviews are well done. VSG did good work there.


Thermalbench.com





jayfkay said:


> Award for most pointless reply today goes to...


Says the guy who made the pointless comments ciarlatano commented on. Please take it elsewhere.


----------



## jayfkay

doyll said:


> Sorry, I have no fan suggestions for you.
> Thermalbench fan tests and reviews are well done. VSG did good work there.
> 
> 
> Thermalbench.com


1. I dont need fan suggestions. 2. I have read about 6-8 reviews from that site already.
3. "their reviews are well done" debatable. He only tests airflow on a radiator. No temperature tests, no case tests, no noise normalized tests, the latter being the single most important benchmark when testing fans. He even admits in one of his last reviews that he should revamp his testing methodology entirely. And his last review was 3 years ago so he isn't uptodate at all.
4. And the benchmarks by Hardware Scientist and Tech Buy Guru are not well done?











doyll said:


> Says the guy who made the pointless comments ciarlatano commented on. Please take it elsewhere.


How is discussing ways to better cooling solutions in a thread about better cooling solutions a pointless comment? Elaborate, please.


----------



## doyll

jayfkay said:


> 1. I dont need fan suggestions. 2. I have read about 6-8 reviews from that site already.
> 3. Maybe they are, but the last review was also more than 3 years ago. They are not uptodate.
> 4. And the benchmarks by Hardware Scientist and Tech Buy Guru are not well done?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is discussing ways to better cooling solutions in a thread about better cooling solutions a pointless comment? Elaborate, please.


You posted
_ "I've seen someone fawn over the TY-147 or whatever they are called earlier. its unjustified. these old fans are overhyped. same with gentle typhoons - probably still good but I have seen them outperformed by newer fans and also they have awful noise levels due to their bearings._​_Arctic P12 or P14 PWMs will do about any job just as well or better. These fans have a great balance of pressure and streamlined air flow."_​It has nothing to do with this thread. It's brash and opinionated. Ciarlatano and I do not agree with you. He makes that clear and now I'm making it as clear as I can. 

If you need help with something I'll try and help. But I don't want to talk about Arctic products being bad or good. As ciarlatano said we have more than enough threads about them. I hope you understand I don't want to talk about them, not even a little.

If I can help you I will, but I won't discuss Arctic any more here. I hope you undrstand.


----------



## Shenhua

paskowitz said:


> Haven't really paid attention to fans in a while. What's the best black, 120mm, radiator fan ATM? I have eLoops and quite like them (great $.


Actually the arctic p12 are the best you can get on black color. They're pretty much as good as a12x25, being a lot cheaper but also lower quality.

That being said, some of them seem to have an annoying whine around 1k rpm, and also even if you change the eloops for the best fan in the market, i don't think you'll get much improvement, if at all.

I would stay put..... or attack the system you have from another angle.


----------



## jayfkay

doyll said:


> If I can help you I will, but I won't discuss Arctic any more here. I hope you undrstand.


No I dont understand. They are praised everywhere as contenders for best case/radiator fans, why not talk about them? If they are bad you could just correct people and say what performs better.

I am not interested in forum politics like you two seemingly are, just in what the best cooling setup is.
If you care to help me figure it out, there is a few questions that puzzle me:

1. Is there an air cooler that performs better than the D15 either stock or if you add different fans to them?
2. What fans could improve performance on the D15, if any? Maybe the TY-147A?
3. Which 140mm fan as case intake has the best thermal performance at acceptable noise levels (36-40dba max)?
I have considered the B14-PS, P14 and Kaze Flex based on what must have been 100+ reviews, charts etc at this point.
4. Is it true that the B14-PS is quite noisy when used as intake behind mesh? Any workaround?


----------



## Owterspace

1. I’ll let others answer that, but there are a few.
2 TY-143
3 I couldn’t say. I use 120x38s so most popular case fans are no match.


----------



## jayfkay

Owterspace said:


> I use 120x38s so most popular case fans are no match.


Aren't they really loud?


----------



## Owterspace

jayfkay said:


> Aren't they really loud?


They can be, but no louder than a TY-143 though. They can be quiet too, like a TY-143. They aren’t silent but they have been running for about 15 years. I’m not saying go out an buy them, but they can be priced well. I just happened to have a few and then I got a few more 🤭 

Mine are only 110cfm @ 2200 I think. You can get much better, and louder heheh.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Im making my own PC case in near future , there will be 2 horizontal chamber on top of each other .On bottom PSU /hdds/ ssds . 1 x 12cm fan exhaust +PSU exhaust , and one 12cm filtered gap without fan , so psu and exhaust fan can draw fresh air in that chamber. (full negative pressure )
On the top chamber there will be only the mobo with cpu / vga . Top chamber will be 20cm tall and 40cm wide Front and back completely open ,sides -top glass. 2x 18cm Silverstone AirPenetrator fans (AP183 ) on front as intake ,only mesh filer on them (full positive pressure). Fans placed as close as possible to the front of the mobo /vga . So the 2x180mm ( 360m in total ) fans will almost cover all the top chamber , acting like a wind tunnel . My CPU cooler is a Dark Rock Pro4 with 2x stock BQ SW3 fans .CPU is 5900x with heavy OC (200+W ) . My question is : shall I remove the front 120mm fan and place it to the back exhaust position on the 2nd tower ? The AP183 fans are so powerful ,i think the 120mm BQ would choke the front -back airflow instead of forward it to back.Since i dont like running it over 1100 rpm. In my opinion this would be better idea : BQ DRP4 front push fan removed , middle 135mm pull stay , and 120mm fan replaced to pull on back of the cooler. Or leave the front fan and just add a 3 . fan on the CPU cooler. What do you think ?


----------



## DiceAir

jayfkay said:


> Hm yeah I suppose the Meshify and P400A have an optional 120 at the bottom, but IDK if thats a good idea.
> I mean underneath behind the GPU, as a secondary exhaust fan below the standard exhaust. Where the other PCI brackets are, ya know? Since the GPU is pointing (and blowing) hot air downwards this would help suck it out.



Oh ok now I understand. Unfortunately I can't do that cause I have a soundblasterx ae-5 installed in my system


----------



## jayfkay

Fractal Define 7 Compact Airflow: Das optimale Lüftersetup


In diesem Guide zeigen wir das optimale Lüftersetup und den perfekten Airflow im Fractal Define 7 Compact!




hardware-helden.de





According to their testing,








this has the best temperatures. 🤔 

Define 7 tho, so not the best airflow case.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Im making my own PC case in near future , there will be 2 horizontal chamber on top of each other .On bottom PSU /hdds/ ssds . 1 x 12cm fan exhaust +PSU exhaust , and one 12cm filtered gap without fan , so psu and exhaust fan can draw fresh air in that chamber. (full negative pressure )
> On the top chamber there will be only the mobo with cpu / vga . Top chamber will be 20cm tall and 40cm wide Front and back completely open ,sides -top glass. 2x 18cm Silverstone AirPenetrator fans (AP183 ) on front as intake ,only mesh filer on them (full positive pressure). Fans placed as close as possible to the front of the mobo /vga . So the 2x180mm ( 360m in total ) fans will almost cover all the top chamber , acting like a wind tunnel . My CPU cooler is a Dark Rock Pro4 with 2x stock BQ SW3 fans .CPU is 5900x with heavy OC (200+W ) . My question is : shall I remove the front 120mm fan and place it to the back exhaust position on the 2nd tower ? The AP183 fans are so powerful ,i think the 120mm BQ would choke the front -back airflow instead of forward it to back.Since i dont like running it over 1100 rpm. In my opinion this would be better idea : BQ DRP4 front push fan removed , middle 135mm pull stay , and 120mm fan replaced to pull on back of the cooler. Or leave the front fan and just add a 3 . fan on the CPU cooler. What do you think ?


I've found filtered intake fans work better than exhaust fans. Fans on filtered intakes give case a slight positive pressure so no air (& dust) can leak in, while exhaust fans give case slight negative pressure so if there is dust in air dust gets into case. 

Look forward to seeing how it all comes together. Always wanted to try AP183 fans. They look like they should work well.




jayfkay said:


> Fractal Define 7 Compact Airflow: Das optimale Lüftersetup
> 
> 
> In diesem Guide zeigen wir das optimale Lüftersetup und den perfekten Airflow im Fractal Define 7 Compact!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hardware-helden.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to their testing,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this has the best temperatures. 🤔
> 
> Define 7 tho, so not the best airflow case.


Top exhaust fan in front of cooler pulls cool intake air out .. meaning heated air coming off GPU moves up to replace it warming other cool intake air entering CPU cooler. 

Problem with most of these case airflow tests is they don't do it right. 
They don't block openings not covered by intake fans .. so the air fans push into case circles around in front of fans going in circles instead of through case. Simple logic of it is intake area between vent and fan is lower pressure than room (& inside of case) so higher pressure air inside of case move to lower pressure area in front of fans .. that is unless all openings not covered by fans is blocked so this cannot happen. 

I hope you are learning from my explanations, because you have many misconceptions about graphs, fans, case airflow etc.


----------



## paskowitz

Shenhua said:


> Actually the arctic p12 are the best you can get on black color. They're pretty much as good as a12x25, being a lot cheaper but also lower quality.
> 
> That being said, some of them seem to have an annoying whine around 1k rpm, and also even if you change the eloops for the best fan in the market, i don't think you'll get much improvement, if at all.
> 
> I would stay put..... or attack the system you have from another angle.


Thanks for the reply. I'm actually building custom loops for 2 people. My build is complete and is well optimized. Their builds will have some rad fans in pull config, so the eLoops aren't ideal for that situation (I've tested it, noise increase is greater than other fans in pull, even if you make sure the rim isn't contacting anything).


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> I've found filtered intake fans work better than exhaust fans. Fans on filtered intakes give case a slight positive pressure so no air (& dust) can leak in, while exhaust fans give case slight negati ve


I figured ,in a closed box ,(like my bottom chamber will be ) one exhaust fan with only filtered intake gaps works best ,it would cool the whole box alone . One intake fan could not move air to all corner ,since most of pc fans has like 45degree wide airflow column.
Pretty nice illustration of full negative pressure , dust is evenly spread on the filter :


----------



## doyll

Thanks TeslaHUN for the post. 
Interesting airflow layout in that case. I like the big furnace filter intake. Very dirty on intake side so filter is definitely doing it's job. Single case fan means system doesn't have much airflow, but for HTPC / web surfing obviously enough. Small fans on GPU, CPU and HDD rack only. PSU is both intake & exhaust inside of case.


----------



## 2600ryzen

Pure negative pressure should work fine IF the box is sealed everywhere except the filtered intake. It's really hard to impossible to seal a normal computer case this way but since you're making your own case maybe you can seal it up in this way. But the way doyll recommends to do it will work best for almost any computer case.
I would just leave the 120mm fan on the drp4 in the front position for the static pressure over the front tower.


----------



## Molitro

Hello friends. Thought I'd ask here, cause I can't quite find a clear answer searching around.
Do you have a good (or couple) suggestion for a straight up 140mm quiet rear exahsut fan. So one that moves at least a decent amount of air (airflow over pressure) at the 700-900 RPM range, and can also get slow for idle or small loads (as low as 400-450 RPM).

Been using a Noctua NF A15 from the D15 I'm now not using, but I noticed the other day the fan is stopping when trying to go below 630-640 RPM (which is strange cause all the Noctuas I've had and use now go below even 400), so I might aswell swap it for an actual airflow fan (not that it will make a difference from the A15, but I'm gonna have to buy one anyway, so...)


----------



## 2600ryzen

I would go for the arctic p14 pwm it's super quiet/silent below 1000rpm and spins down to 300rpm.


----------



## doyll

Molitro said:


> Hello friends. Thought I'd ask here, cause I can't quite find a clear answer searching around.
> Do you have a good (or couple) suggestion for a straight up 140mm quiet rear exahsut fan. So one that moves at least a decent amount of air (airflow over pressure) at the 700-900 RPM range, and can also get slow for idle or small loads (as low as 400-450 RPM).
> 
> Been using a Noctua NF A15 from the D15 I'm now not using, but I noticed the other day the fan is stopping when trying to go below 630-640 RPM (which is strange cause all the Noctuas I've had and use now go below even 400), so I might aswell swap it for an actual airflow fan (not that it will make a difference from the A15, but I'm gonna have to buy one anyway, so...)


Are your temps high? Unless you need more airflow to keep system cool I wouldn't change fan.

Airflow is generated when higher pressure areas of air move into lower pressure areas trying to equalize the pressure. So low pressure rated fans (rating is fan at maximum speed) move less air than high pressure rated fans if there is any resistance to airflow. That is any resistance at al, like grill, filter, even air itself creating resistance. Simple as that. 

In most cases (no pun) no exhaust fans are even needed. Using both intake and exhaust case fans has similar effect to using push/pull fans on coolers and radiators. At same fan speed stacked give small (1-2c) improvement, but because 2x fans make 3dB more noise as 1x fan at same speed and 1x fan running 3dB faster so it's same noise level as 2x fans flows basically same amount of air as 2x fans so is same temperature. I build lots of computers for people, like a couple a month for many years. I can't even remember last time I used a case exhaust fan. Most are tower cases with front full of intake fans and sometimes a bottom intake as well. I block any openings not covered by intake fans in front half of case so the air they are pushing into case has to flow on through case and out, not loop in front of intake fans and go in circles. I also remove all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area for better front to back airflow around GPU this giving GPU (&CPU) cooler air for lower temps at lower fan speed so lower noise levels as well.


----------



## Molitro

Oh I'm using 5 intakes right now, 3 front 2 bottom, with an Arctic Freezer II on top and a single exhaust. Lots of low spinning intakes make for a quiet (and clean while filtered) computer. But the exhaust does make a bit of a difference, just in the sense that it helps guiding the air from the GPU to the back, as opposed to upwards, so the AF gets even more fresh air (although of course it does already, because it's mostly breathing in the air from the upper 2 front fans).

In any case, I'm thinking I might aswell leave the A15 on the back and just use the 0 RPM mode for idle, and spin it up to it's minimun 43%, about 640 RPM for low loads (say gaming something that loads my 3080 to 55-58ºC). Can't really hear it at that % anyway.


----------



## doyll

Molitro said:


> Oh I'm using 5 intakes right now, 3 front 2 bottom, with an Arctic Freezer II on top and a single exhaust. Lots of low spinning intakes make for a quiet (and clean while filtered) computer. But the exhaust does make a bit of a difference, just in the sense that it helps guiding the air from the GPU to the back, as opposed to upwards, so the AF gets even more fresh air (although of course it does already, because it's mostly breathing in the air from the upper 2 front fans).
> 
> In any case, I'm thinking I might aswell leave the A15 on the back and just use the 0 RPM mode for idle, and spin it up to it's minimun 43%, about 640 RPM for low loads (say gaming something that loads my 3080 to 55-58ºC). Can't really hear it at that % anyway.


I should have said exhaust fan/s sometimes help create different airflow pattern / path through case. Typical tower case with CLC rad in top (exhaust) can benefit from rear exhaust, like you said ti can draw GPU air back. But CLC has already change airflow with it's exhaust fans, so we are talking additional exhaust fans when there are already exhaust fans on CLC. Maybe I should have wondered about it when you said "D15 I'm now not using". 
My builds re 99% air cooler. Think I built 2 AIO (not CLC) systems in last couple of years. One was be quiet! Silent Loop and other was Aisbaer. That said I'm testing some ID-Cooling coolers, both water and air to see what the difference are.


----------



## 2600ryzen

I thought I'd post this in this thread - X2 A4 Blank Magnet Sheets DIY Hand Craft Fridge Office School Flexible Plain 1mm | eBay . Sheet magnets are the perfect material for making home made gaskets for fans, all/most of the gaskets I see for sale are for square framed fans meaning if you have circular type fan it's really hard to make a seal between the fan and the fan mounting area. 
These sheet magnets also make it much easier to seal off the front of your case in a cleaner looking way(for if you have a mesh front panel or glass and can see into the front panel area). This is kind of how I used it - I accidentally bought a non magnetic/adhesive dust filter and used the magnet to both seal the front of case and allow me to easily place/remove my front dust filter.









The best size for the sheet magnet would be A3 sized not A4 like I bought - so you can seal off the front in a single piece.


----------



## doyll

Nice bit of kit! 

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## DiceAir

So I upgraded my pc finally. Just awaiting for the New Graphics cards to come in stock to the following.

Ryzen 7 5800x
Asrock B550 Steel legend
32GB Gskill Ripjaw V 3600mhz cl16 (2x16GB)
Same 980ti with g12 bracket and h75 cooler
Still using 2x HDD, 2x Sata SSD and one NVME pci-e 3.0 SSD
Same Phanteks entho pro case with solid side panel.
Fractal design celsius S36 for CPU cooler

So I'm looking to get a new case. I want something nice with great airflow design and tempered glass side panel. RGB is not a must but would love some white lights at least. I'm from South Africa so don't have many choices. The ones I have in mind is Phantek p500a or Fractal design Meshify 2 XL. What I like in the phanteks case is first price 2nd it comes with RGB fans that I can set to white but don't know. I can link to a few shops here so you guys can have a look if you prefer I do that. I saw gamersnexus review on the meshify 2 XL and according to them the p500A has better cooling but don't know if you can just add fans to the mshify 2 xl and get better cooling that way. Any other suggestions?


----------



## Owterspace

Stock fans are always crap. His results showed Meshify C having a warm GPU. It really all comes down to the fans in the end. My 980 Classified idles at 26 loads at 62 with the only change to it being TF8 paste, and AB for a plain jane fan curve. I run my front fans @ 7v so I don't really hear them. I have a 24v DC Centaur 120x38 that I use for my rear exhaust. I can only feed it a max of 12v and its quiet, but you can hear it moving air. My TY-147B at full chuff is louder. I'll have to cut the grille out some time.


----------



## ciarlatano

DiceAir said:


> I saw gamersnexus review on the meshify 2 XL and according to them the p500A has better cooling but don't know if you can just add fans to the mshify 2 xl and get better cooling that way. Any other suggestions?


Yes, a fan change in the Meshify helps quite a bit, FD case fans are terrible.

That said, why not consider the Enthoo Pro 2? It's a beautiful case:


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> So I upgraded my pc finally. Just awaiting for the New Graphics cards to come in stock to the following.
> 
> Ryzen 7 5800x
> Asrock B550 Steel legend
> 32GB Gskill Ripjaw V 3600mhz cl16 (2x16GB)
> Same 980ti with g12 bracket and h75 cooler
> Still using 2x HDD, 2x Sata SSD and one NVME pci-e 3.0 SSD
> Same Phanteks entho pro case with solid side panel.
> Fractal design celsius S36 for CPU cooler
> 
> So I'm looking to get a new case. I want something nice with great airflow design and tempered glass side panel. RGB is not a must but would love some white lights at least. I'm from South Africa so don't have many choices. The ones I have in mind is Phantek p500a or Fractal design Meshify 2 XL. What I like in the phanteks case is first price 2nd it comes with RGB fans that I can set to white but don't know. I can link to a few shops here so you guys can have a look if you prefer I do that. I saw gamersnexus review on the meshify 2 XL and according to them the p500A has better cooling but don't know if you can just add fans to the mshify 2 xl and get better cooling that way. Any other suggestions?


As already said, most stock case fans are bad, to mediocre at best. Exception is Phanteks cases fans with PH-F120MP/F140MP impeller. These case fans are quite good, but no RGB. RGB lighting is easily done with add-on lighting .. and cheap as well. Search ebay for "computer rgb" should find a good selection of fan halos/rings and other lighting.

I'm assuming you have read 5th post this thread about setting up case airflow.


----------



## Dogzilla07

Be Quiet Dark Base series as well has good stock fans, it comes with Silent Wings 3


----------



## doyll

*Dogzilla07 *is correct. I should have included be quiet! cases with Silent Wings 3 fans. Easily as good a case as Phanteks and Silent Wings 3 fans are among the very best


----------



## ciarlatano

Dogzilla07 said:


> Be Quiet Dark Base series as well has good stock fans, it comes with Silent Wings 3


Yes, but they also reportedly have terrible airflow due to their design. Quite the conundrum. 

Kind of a shame, they have some great features.


----------



## DiceAir

Dogzilla07 said:


> Be Quiet Dark Base series as well has good stock fans, it comes with Silent Wings 3


Can't get any be quiet products here.


----------



## DiceAir

ciarlatano said:


> Yes, a fan change in the Meshify helps quite a bit, FD case fans are terrible.
> 
> That said, why not consider the Enthoo Pro 2? It's a beautiful case:



Any specific reason to get the enthoo pro 2. That case design is not my type anymore. I can alwayas wait a bit and see what comes out this year and decide. I think anyway a new gpu is more important.


----------



## Owterspace

Well.. I had to try my new system with all of my fans 

I couldn’t fit a120x38 over my cooler this time because of cpu cable.. bummer. I slid a TY-147B there to help exhaust that area and pull some more air over the vrm. I need to find my LNA for the little 92mm fan. Jeez what a ripper she is. Moves a ton though. Room temp was 22.5C..


----------



## Dogzilla07

ciarlatano said:


> Yes, but they also reportedly have terrible airflow due to their design. Quite the conundrum.
> 
> Kind of a shame, they have some great features.


True, but if u remove the front panel on Dark Base 700, or 900, the mesh behind is very high quality, and airflow becomes awesome 

For me there's 3 cases that look aesthetically good enough with front panel removed, the 2 Be Quiet Dark Bases 700,900 and Phanteks Evolv X, and if i had them I'd run them like that, but that's just me xD


----------



## ciarlatano

Dogzilla07 said:


> True, but if u remove the front panel on Dark Base 700, or 900, the mesh behind is very high quality, and airflow becomes awesome
> 
> For me there's 3 cases that look aesthetically good enough with front panel removed, the 2 Be Quiet Dark Bases 700,900 and Phanteks Evolv X, and if i had them I'd run them like that, but that's just me xD


Agreed. BTW - the simple extender mod on the front panel of the Evolv and Evolv X does wonders for airflow without having to lose the panel. After doing it, my Evolv shows little to no difference in temps with the panel on or off, while the difference was ~5C on the liquid prior to the mod.
Also, a mesh front version of the DB 700/900 like the 500 would be great. I'd jump on that.


----------



## doyll

Phanteks cases are quite nice. Just be sure the fans it comes with have PH-F120MP / PH-F140MP impeller (see image below). These case fans are basically lower rpm variable voltage of them. 









I haven't used or tested case fans with impeller in image below. I thnk they have lower pressure rating which means they won't move as much air through grill and filters ..so not as good a case fan..


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Phanteks cases are quite nice. Just be sure the fans it comes with have PH-F120MP / PH-F140MP impeller (see image below). These case fans are basically lower rpm variable voltage of them.
> 
> I haven't used or tested case fans with impeller in image below. I thnk they have lower pressure rating which means they won't move as much air through grill and filters ..so not as good a case fan..


Those SK series fans are terrible. Think Fractal Design fan type of terrible. Cheap, looks forward fans for their budget cases.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Those SK series fans are terrible. Think Fractal Design fan type of terrible. Cheap, looks forward fans for their budget cases.


So basically if buying Phanteks case that does not have the MP like fans plan on only the cost of case but also the cost of 2-3x good pressure rated intake fans to have a case that runs cool and quiet / had good airflow.


----------



## DiceAir

What about the new corsair 5000D case?


----------



## Kokin

DiceAir said:


> What about the new corsair 5000D case?


The 5000D Airflow is good, the solid front panel version will obviously suffer from suffocation regardless of what fans you choose.

I'm using NF-A12x25 fans on my new O11 Mini and they work super well for both radiators and general airflow case fans, albeit just very expensive at $30 per fan. I tried out my old Gentle Typhoons (both PWM and 3pin versions) and the dual ball bearing noise is surprisingly unbearable after using the Noctuas for over a year.


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> What about the new corsair 5000D case?


Obviously Airflow model with it's vented front panel is better than solid panel model. Don't know what fans are included so don't know if they are any good or not.


----------



## Elrick

Just put in an order for 5 of these;









Scythe Kaze Flex 140mm Fan, PWM 300-1800RPM, Quiet Case/Radiator Fan, Single Pack : Amazon.com.au: Computers


Scythe Kaze Flex 140mm Fan, PWM 300-1800RPM, Quiet Case/Radiator Fan, Single Pack : Amazon.com.au: Computers



www.amazon.com.au





They're for my newly purchased *2nd* FD-C-DEF7X-03 case.

Hoping they indeed push a fair bit of fresh air into it .


----------



## DiceAir

Elrick said:


> Just put in an order for 5 of these;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scythe Kaze Flex 140mm Fan, PWM 300-1800RPM, Quiet Case/Radiator Fan, Single Pack : Amazon.com.au: Computers
> 
> 
> Scythe Kaze Flex 140mm Fan, PWM 300-1800RPM, Quiet Case/Radiator Fan, Single Pack : Amazon.com.au: Computers
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're for my newly purchased *2nd* FD-C-DEF7X-03 case.
> 
> Hoping they indeed push a fair bit of fresh air into it .



Do you know how the airflow is compared to the mesh of the meshify 2 XL


----------



## Elrick

DiceAir said:


> Do you know how the airflow is compared to the mesh of the meshify 2 XL


Much the same, when you remove the front door panel of my 7 XL.

Did that on my other one and the temps are indeed quite good when running with the air conditioner because it retains the same internal temp as the outside room, which is 24C.

You don't want to run with the outside house temp here, which is always around 36 to 39C (96.8 to 102.2F). 

Trust me, where I live you need refrigerated House Conditioning running all through Summer and Spring just so you can pretend to be living in a nice and cool place.


----------



## doyll

Elrick said:


> Just put in an order for 5 of these;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scythe Kaze Flex 140mm Fan, PWM 300-1800RPM, Quiet Case/Radiator Fan, Single Pack : Amazon.com.au: Computers
> 
> 
> Scythe Kaze Flex 140mm Fan, PWM 300-1800RPM, Quiet Case/Radiator Fan, Single Pack : Amazon.com.au: Computers
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're for my newly purchased *2nd* FD-C-DEF7X-03 case.
> 
> Hoping they indeed push a fair bit of fresh air into it .


Good price for 5 fans!

Impeller looks like a mirror image of one used by Thermalright and Noctua (among others) for many years. TY-143B (1800rpm) has slightly less airflow and little higher pressure rating, so guessing with normal resistance will flow about the same.

Fan Model Number . . . . Speed (RPM)±10% Air Flow (CFM) Statics(mmH2O) Noise(dBA) Current(A)
Scythe KF1425FD12S-P . 300±200~1200 . . 16.8~67.2 . . . . . 0.08~1.25 . . . . . 4.19~19.4 . . . 0.12
Scythe KF1425FD18S-P . 300±200~1800 . . 6.8~100.8 . . . . . 0.08~2.81 . . . . . 4.19~26.45 . . 0.22
Thermalright TY-143B . . 600∼1800 RPM . . 33.98∼90.96 . . . 0.32∼3.00 . . . . . 19∼25 . . . . . . 0.25

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on how they work.


----------



## geriatricpollywog

I am looking for recommendations on replacement 3 x 120mm fans for my 360mm GPU AIO. Once a GPU block is available, I'll be repurposing them for an EK SE360, a similarly thin, low fin density radiator. Here are my requirements:

-No less than 1,800 RPM.
-Good static pressure
-Square frame, like the ones that came with the AIO. This means minimal contours that could cause gaps between the fan frame and radiator frame.
-PWM
-Non RGB
-Black on black

Current fans:


----------



## ciarlatano

0451 said:


> I am looking for recommendations on replacement 3 x 120mm fans for my 360mm GPU AIO. Once a GPU block is available, I'll be repurposing them for an EK SE360, a similarly thin, low fin density radiator. Here are my requirements:
> 
> -No less than 1,800 RPM.
> -Good static pressure
> -Square frame, like the ones that came with the AIO. This means minimal contours that could cause gaps between the fan frame and radiator frame.
> -PWM
> -Non RGB
> -Black on black
> 
> Current fans:


First, if you don't already have that SE, you really need to go with another rad. It is literally the absolute worst performing rad on the market with a name brand, and it's not a small margin. - Radiator Review Round Up 2016 - Page 5 of 10 - ExtremeRigs.net

As for fans, NB eLoop provided there will be no restriction near the intake, GTs, Phanteks F120MP, Corsair ML120, and....of course.....no thread would be complete without the Arctic P12 being thrust into it.....whether it belongs there or not.....


----------



## geriatricpollywog

ciarlatano said:


> First, if you don't already have that SE, you really need to go with another rad. It is literally the absolute worst performing rad on the market with a name brand, and it's not a small margin. - Radiator Review Round Up 2016 - Page 5 of 10 - ExtremeRigs.net
> 
> As for fans, NB eLoop provided there will be no restriction near the intake, GTs, Phanteks F120MP, Corsair ML120, and....of course.....no thread would be complete without the Arctic P12 being thrust into it.....whether it belongs there or not.....











I thought the e-loops did not perform as well and topped out at lower rpm. I’ll probably go with the Phanteks. It’s too bad there are no recent reviews on Thermalbench.

As for the SE360, I already own the radiator and nothing else will fit in the wiring area of my case.


----------



## Memmento Mori

Dear Gents,

having the True spirit 140 power and thinking of an upgrade of the TY-147 which comes with the cooler.

Originally wanted to swap it for 2X TL-D14 but found now also the TL-D14X. Do you have any experience with them, or can you gimme some hint if it is worth? 

Yes every 0,5 C i can bring my CPU cooler counts, and I don't want to sit next to turbojet ...

Any advice is welcome....

Thank you in advanced and appreciate if you take the time to share 

BR,
MM.


----------



## doyll

Memmento Mori said:


> Dear Gents,
> 
> having the True spirit 140 power and thinking of an upgrade of the TY-147 which comes with the cooler.
> 
> Originally wanted to swap it for 2X TL-D14 but found now also the TL-D14X. Do you have any experience with them, or can you gimme some hint if it is worth?
> 
> Yes every 0,5 C i can bring my CPU cooler counts, and I don't want to sit next to turbojet ...
> 
> Any advice is welcome....
> 
> Thank you in advanced and appreciate if you take the time to share
> 
> BR,
> MM.


Sounds like a good setup.

Changing from TY-147 to 1x TL-D14X will lower temps a degree or 2 at higher speed because of increased cooler airflow, but that will only happen if you also increase case airflow to match so air entering cooler is less than 2/3c warmer than room ambient. Running 2x of TL-D14X would likely make little if any difference .. because their high pressure rating means less loss of airflow so staking doesn't help much if at all.

I assume you have good case airflow and have monitored air temp entering cooler fans? Air temp entering cooler vs component temp is almost 1:1 ratio. Every degree warmer air into cooler becomes same degrees hotter component is (at same fan speed and load). Air temp entering cooler 2-3c warmer than room is fine. But if it's 10c warmer improving case airflow to lower it to 2-3c will lower component temps 7-8c. 

Think we've talked about this before. 

5th post this thread is about airflow and optimizing case airflow.


----------



## Owterspace

I considered TL-D14X. It is very nice looking, and the specs are good. But TY-143 is cheaper, stronger, and louder of course. If you find 100cfm to be beneficial go for it. For me it was the price that dissuaded me. Because I was going to buy 5-6 but with shipping and all that.. very pricey. My fans are still pretty good, much louder than TL-D14X and not much stronger. But they are paid for already lol. After I get a PSU and GPU I will buy all new fans for my setup.


----------



## D-EJ915

The TY-143 is a nice fan but it does have noticeable bearing motor noise compared to the other thermalright fans since it uses ball bearing just keep that in mind.


----------



## doyll

D-EJ915 said:


> The TY-143 is a nice fan but it does have noticeable bearing motor noise compared to the other thermalright fans since it uses ball bearing just keep that in mind.


Indeed this is true, but how close to fan do you have to be to hear this ball bearing noise? Is it in closed case 2 feet away or is it open case with ear close to fan to hear it? 

I ask because I know ball bearings make quiet rumbling / rushing sound that I can only hear if I get my ear quite close to fan. I found this in my old Define R1 build after 3-4 years of 24/7 use. If I put my ear up close to fan it was audible, but at a couple feet or with side cover on I couldn't. Define R1 does have sound deadening while my Enthoo Pro cases does not, and can't hear bearing noise in it either.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Indeed this is true, but how close to fan do you have to be to hear this ball bearing noise? Is it in closed case 2 feet away or is it open case with ear close to fan to hear it?
> 
> I ask because I know ball bearings make quiet rumbling / rushing sound that I can only hear if I get my ear quite close to fan. I found this in my old Define R1 build after 3-4 years of 24/7 use. If I put my ear up close to fan it was audible, but at a couple feet or with side cover on I couldn't. Define R1 does have sound deadening while my Enthoo Pro cases does not, and can't hear bearing noise in it either.


I notice the TY-143s when I use them as intake fans, but have never been able to hear them when on a CPU cooler.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> I notice the TY-143s when I use them as intake fans, but have never been able to hear them when on a CPU cooler.


Was that while still relatively new or when they got older?
Was this in case with grill to room vs baffled vent (side intake to front mounted fan / plate in middle part of vent)?
Not doubting ball bearing noise. Just trying to figure out if it's an issue in case setting alongside of desk vs on desk applications.


----------



## D-EJ915

doyll said:


> Was that while still relatively new or when they got older?
> Was this in case with grill to room vs baffled vent (side intake to front mounted fan / plate in middle part of vent)?
> Not doubting ball bearing noise. Just trying to figure out if it's an issue in case setting alongside of desk vs on desk applications.


Mine's not that old (about 2 yrs) but has pretty bad bearing noise.






I do have 2 of the 1800rpm scythe 140mm round frame fan and they are pretty nice as well, not as fast as this but a bit quicker than noctua and thermalright's regular models but I just got them a little while ago so no idea how they are in long term.


----------



## Memmento Mori

What I see that all thermal right fans now have a S-FDB Bearing, also used in the tl-d14x, is it better worser?


----------



## doyll

Assuming your rumble sound is bearing, that is quite loud. Way louder than mine running on PH-TC14PE on cooler from when first TY-143 came out on Silver Arrow SB-E Extreme. (I ran TY-140 on SB-E and put TY-143 on red PH-TC14PE.


----------



## Melcar

D-EJ915 said:


> Mine's not that old (about 2 yrs) but has pretty bad bearing noise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have 2 of the 1800rpm scythe 140mm round frame fan and they are pretty nice as well, not as fast as this but a bit quicker than noctua and thermalright's regular models but I just got them a little while ago so no idea how they are in long term.


I say that particular fan is faulty or developed bearing issues over time. I have two TY-143s that are a bit over three years old and a pair of newer ones that are a bit older than a year. None of them have that sound. You can hear the bearings, but you have to really listen closely. The newer ones I have have a weird ticking sound at certain speeds, but still nothing like in the video.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Im curious ,what would happen if we add 1 - 2 server fan (delta 120 mm for Example) to a large enough heatsink (D15 or similar). And we can feed enough fresh air ,or just use outside the case. Would that setup compete vs custom watercooling ? Any1 tested this brute force airflow ? (Yes I know the Linus video with industrial giant fans )


----------



## Shawnb99

TeslaHUN said:


> Im curious ,what would happen if we add 1 - 2 server fan (delta 120 mm for Example) to a large enough heatsink (D15 or similar). And we can feed enough fresh air ,or just use outside the case. Would that setup compete vs custom watercooling ? Any1 tested this brute force airflow ? (Yes I know the Linus video with industrial giant fans )


On my media server was running an E5-1650 with the stock cooler it would regularly hit 90+ and sound like a jet taking off. Tried a few different server heatsink with the same results. 
Custom WC setup with all EK gear and I’d rarely go over 60 degrees.
Then again this is due to most of them heatsinks where designed for racks so space is limited


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Im curious ,what would happen if we add 1 - 2 server fan (delta 120 mm for Example) to a large enough heatsink (D15 or similar). And we can feed enough fresh air ,or just use outside the case. Would that setup compete vs custom watercooling ? Any1 tested this brute force airflow ? (Yes I know the Linus video with industrial giant fans )


You mean like what Lennyrhys and I did years ago? 









Others have done similar. Problem is obviously much more noise than with custom loop.


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> You mean like what Lennyrhys and I did years ago?
> View attachment 2478472
> 
> 
> Others have done similar. Problem is obviously much more noise than with custom loop.


I was referring to this Linus video
But your results are exactly what i was looking for , thanx !
It seems there are still more potentional in tower coolers after changing fans . Probably i will do some testing once my Assasin3 arrives . I might change the stock 2x140mm fans (1400rpm -1.79 h2o sp ) to 3x 140mm Arctic P14 (1700rpm - 2,4 h2o) /oops cant fit , it needs to be 140mm fan with 120mm spacing /  to 3X 140 mm Scythe Kaze Flex RGB fans(1800rpm -2,8 h2o)


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> I was referring to this Linus video
> But your results are exactly what i was looking for , thanx !
> It seems there are still more potentional in tower coolers after changing fans . Probably i will do some testing once my Assasin3 arrives . I might change the stock 2x140mm fans (1400rpm -1.79 h2o sp ) to 3x 140mm Arctic P14 (1700rpm - 2,4 h2o) /oops cant fit , it needs to be 140mm fan with 120mm spacing /  to 3X 140 mm Scythe Kaze Flex RGB fans(1800rpm -2,8 h2o)


Thanks for explaining.

Yeah, higher airflow fans increase cooling ablity up to a point, but of course case airflow must be increased to match.


----------



## Memmento Mori

And here I am … again and Clueless  

Would be interested to know your opinion about the replacement of NB-eloops B12-PS (120mm) in my Caselabs SM8. My problem is that I have an grill in the front and they do their specific sound, and im getting tired of it. (At the beginning i was not paying enough attention but as longer I have them the more i hear it.) Next I cant imagine them in Push/pull config even with spacers on a rad. (Not specified future should be on Hardware labs The Black Ice® Nemesis rad atm Iam aircooling). 

My options would be:

ThermalRight:
TL-B12 
TL-C12 PRO 

Or should I directly take the BQ Silent wings 3 High Performace?

Min RPM 800
Max RPM 1200



Looking for the best performer between this 3...

Any constructive advice would be very appreciated... Thank you in advanced.


----------



## Kokin

Memmento Mori said:


> And here I am … again and Clueless
> 
> Would be interested to know your opinion about the replacement of NB-eloops B12-PS (120mm) in my Caselabs SM8. My problem is that I have an grill in the front and they do their specific sound, and im getting tired of it. (At the beginning i was not paying enough attention but as longer I have them the more i hear it.) Next I cant imagine them in Push/pull config even with spacers on a rad. (Not specified future should be on Hardware labs The Black Ice® Nemesis rad atm Iam aircooling).
> 
> My options would be:
> 
> ThermalRight:
> TL-B12
> TL-C12 PRO
> 
> Or should I directly take the BQ Silent wings 3 High Performace?
> 
> Min RPM 800
> Max RPM 1200
> 
> 
> 
> Looking for the best performer between this 3...
> 
> Any constructive advice would be very appreciated... Thank you in advanced.


Looks like the TL-C12 is going to perform similar/worse than your current NB-eloops: review

I can't even find reviews on the TL-B12 since it's new or unreleased, but it looks like it's a Gentle Typhoon clone.

Otherwise, the SW3 (if on sale) or Phanteks PH-F120MP are great fans for their price. Arctic P12/14 are also popular fans, although lots of people complain about bad motor noise in the 1100-1300 rpm range, so that's a no go.

If you can afford it, Noctua NF-A12x25 are the best radiator fans for noise/perf in the 800-1200 rpm range (see comparison). I use them as pull only on HWL GTS rads and they make almost no noise at all in the 750-1000rpm range. Plus they come with radiator gaskets that cover the whole fan frame. There was a huge reduction in noise going from Gentle Typhoons to the Noctuas when I was still using my Caselabs Mercury S3, of course this is subjective.


----------



## Memmento Mori

Thanks for the reply. 

TL-B12 - yes you ended up same like me, no information at all, nowhere to buy also, only on their home page but not much information's either...

TL-C12Pro - saw the same review, was hoping that maybe someone would have additional info on them, also not much information's out there... 

Noctua NF-A12x25 - yes i know, but I'm not able to look at them, want black as they will be exposed to my view  And more or less is the same reason also why I don't go with the Arctic fans, even they are black, i don't like the look. Also not that much convinced about them... Well taste is subjective same as noise tolerance. 

@doyll - I know you have better things to do, and this is not meant as an insult or in a bad way, but if I would give you an Aliexpres coupon for 2x TL-C12Pro fans, would you be willing to test them? Idk if you have the equipment, time and willingness, but I'm pretty sure you have the knowledge....  I know its a shady deal for you, 100h work for 2 fans as payment.... Just an idea...


----------



## XtrathiccFan

I wish I have decibel meter and airflow meter, so I can test them and see if they are really as good as what people are claiming.
Maybe I should stop wasting money on useless stuffs


----------



## doyll

Memmento Mori said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> TL-B12 - yes you ended up same like me, no information at all, nowhere to buy also, only on their home page but not much information's either...
> 
> TL-C12Pro - saw the same review, was hoping that maybe someone would have additional info on them, also not much information's out there...
> 
> Noctua NF-A12x25 - yes i know, but I'm not able to look at them, want black as they will be exposed to my view  And more or less is the same reason also why I don't go with the Arctic fans, even they are black, i don't like the look. Also not that much convinced about them... Well taste is subjective same as noise tolerance.
> 
> @doyll - I know you have better things to do, and this is not meant as an insult or in a bad way, but if I would give you an Aliexpres coupon for 2x TL-C12Pro fans, would you be willing to test them? Idk if you have the equipment, time and willingness, but I'm pretty sure you have the knowledge....  I know its a shady deal for you, 100h work for 2 fans as payment.... Just an idea...


Definitely interested in testing some more fans, but all tied up for at probably a month. I need to do a little re-building of my test station too. Remind me in 3 - 4 weeks and I can probably test them against some older top tier fans like GT, PH-F120MP, etc. 

Would be nice to get some of the other GT impeller designed fans too, like Arctic P12, NF-A12x25, Silent Wings 3, etc. Could even do some 140mm fans at same time.


----------



## Memmento Mori

would be a budget of 100EUR be enough?  If it would be just 1 piece per model could be right? Not pushing but until you get the TL-C12 Pro from Aliexpress it takes like 3-4 weeks until they arrive....  And other thing is they have now something like "Happy Easter sales" or Anniversary sales so a bit discount is there too  (until 2.4.2021)....


----------



## DiceAir

What do you guys think of the Arctic p14 pst. The exact model is this one

Amazon.com: ARCTIC P14 PWM PST Value Pack - 140 mm Case Fan with PWM Sharing Technology (PST), Five Pack, Pressure-optimised, Computer, Fan Speed: 200-1700 RPM - Black: Computers & Accessories 

Was looking at the 5 pack. Price seems amazing for what you get I think. For now like I said before my gpu is water cooled with AIO at the back. So when I upgrade my gpu I can install one of the fans at the back. My case is a phantek enthoo pro.


----------



## ciarlatano

DiceAir said:


> What do you guys think of the Arctic p14 pst. The exact model is this one
> 
> Amazon.com: ARCTIC P14 PWM PST Value Pack - 140 mm Case Fan with PWM Sharing Technology (PST), Five Pack, Pressure-optimised, Computer, Fan Speed: 200-1700 RPM - Black: Computers & Accessories
> 
> Was looking at the 5 pack. Price seems amazing for what you get I think. For now like I said before my gpu is water cooled with AIO at the back. So when I upgrade my gpu I can install one of the fans at the back. My case is a phantek enthoo pro.


What is the intended usage? Are you adding fans or replacing fans? What is your current layout, and what will be the intended layout?


----------



## DiceAir

ciarlatano said:


> What is the intended usage? Are you adding fans or replacing fans? What is your current layout, and what will be the intended layout?


Replacing fans. Currently have 360mm radiator top exhaust and then aio coolelr for gpu back as exhaust. One of my front fans faulty so wanting to replace all of them.

Front I have 2 x cougar vortex pwm 120mm fans and bottom stock 140mm fan that I took from the back


----------



## ciarlatano

DiceAir said:


> Replacing fans. Currently have 360mm radiator top exhaust and then aio coolelr for gpu back as exhaust. One of my front fans faulty so wanting to replace all of them.
> 
> Front I have 2 x cougar vortex pwm 120mm fans and bottom stock 140mm fan that I took from the back


They will be an improvement from the Cougars as intakes. Can't say whether they would be an improvement on the "stock fan" since I have no idea what case you are using - i.e., if you have a Fractal case it would be a huge improvement, if you have a case where the stock fan is a Phanteks 140MP it would not, and I would recommend simply buying two more F140MP for the front intake.


----------



## DiceAir

ciarlatano said:


> They will be an improvement from the Cougars as intakes. Can't say whether they would be an improvement on the "stock fan" since I have no idea what case you are using - i.e., if you have a Fractal case it would be a huge improvement, if you have a case where the stock fan is a Phanteks 140MP it would not, and I would recommend simply buying two more F140MP for the front intake.


the f140mp is to expensive. for the price of 2x-3x F140mp i can get the 5 pack P14 PST. The other reason for replacing is lower noise


----------



## ciarlatano

DiceAir said:


> the f140mp is to expensive. for the price of 2x-3x F140mp i can get the 5 pack P14 PST. The other reason for replacing is lower noise


Since you won't say what you are replacing, not much to say here.....


----------



## DiceAir

ciarlatano said:


> Since you won't say what you are replacing, not much to say here.....


I'm replacing 2x cougar vortex pwm that i use as case fans and 1x stock fan also use as bottom intake. Then wwhen I upgrade my gpu thus the aio radiator will be removed at the back I will be replacing that.

2x cougar vortex pwm Front and 1x stock fan bottom.


----------



## ciarlatano

DiceAir said:


> I'm replacing 2x cougar vortex pwm that i use as case fans and 1x stock fan also use as bottom intake. Then wwhen I upgrade my gpu thus the aio radiator will be removed at the back I will be replacing that.
> 
> 2x cougar vortex pwm Front and 1x stock fan bottom.


And again....no clue what case or what this "stock fan" is. I was pretty specific about why it matters and even gave examples. You want help, but won't share information, making it impossible to give you any accurate feedback. I'm more than happy to help given that I've used and tested most of the fans out there, but this is just way too much work pulling teeth for info.


----------



## Melcar

DiceAir said:


> I'm replacing 2x cougar vortex pwm that i use as case fans and 1x stock fan also use as bottom intake. Then wwhen I upgrade my gpu thus the aio radiator will be removed at the back I will be replacing that.
> 
> 2x cougar vortex pwm Front and 1x stock fan bottom.


What's the stock fan? What case do you have?


----------



## DiceAir

Melcar said:


> What's the stock fan? What case do you have?


In my original post I said Phanteks enthoo pro


----------



## Melcar

DiceAir said:


> In my original post I said Phanteks enthoo pro


Then if I'm not wrong that 140mm stock fan is a PH-F140SP with PH-F140MP blades (basically a 1100-1200rpm PH-F140MP). That's the one that came with my Enthoo Pro and it works well enough. A P14 should be marginally better, if only because it can go much faster. The Cougar fans are good but loud, so replacing them with P14s would be an improvement as well.
Currently I run 2x PH-F140MPs as front intakes synced with the CPU temps, 1x PH-F140MP + 1x PH-F120MP as bottom intakes controlled by my GPU. The bottom fans I don't run more than 60% PWM (comes out at like 1000-1100rpm) otherwise they get obnoxiously loud due to the stamped out grills in the case. I wouldn't recommend a high speed bottom intake fan if you care about noise. I would also suggest what ciarlatano says. Just get two PH-F140MPs for front intakes and keep the stock 140mm fan in the bottom. Performance wise I don't think you will see much difference compared to P14s and the MPs are fairly quiet up to 1200rpm. Unless you can get 3 P14s or even a five pack at a much lower price than the two MPs.


----------



## doyll

Sorry for slow reply. Wasn't paying attention. 
What Melcar said. 
I know lots of people using PH-F140MP and PH-F120MP with no complaint and lots of praise. 
All of my builds use good pressure rated fans (like PH-F120/140MPs) as intakes in front and sometimes bottom with all openings in front half of case not covered by these intake fans blocks off so air fans push into case has to flow on through case, not leak around fans and end up going in circles. I also remove all PCIe back slot covers to increase rear vent area around GPU for better front to back airflow so lower air temp into coolers so lower temps at lower noise levels.


----------



## learner-gr

HI there.
I have been following the forum for a long time as a simple viewer and lately I have been reading the nice thread you started about air computer cooling. I decided to subscribe to the website to ask some questions.

I have a system with RYZEN 3700X processor and Gigabyte GeForce RTX 2060 6GB OC rev graphics card. 2.0. For cpu cooler I have the Thermalright ARO-M14G.

At an ambient temperature of 20-21C I have an idle cpu and a gpu of 40-42C. I have already taken a pci blade (which was with a screw) out of the case and I intend to take out the rest but because it is without a screw I have to break them and because I might sell it in the future to upgrade, I am not breaking them at the moment until I get spare parts with a screw.

I have the Powertech PT-743 box which has dimensions of 430 mm x 205 mm x 380 mm in which I made several changes regarding its cooling. Of course I still continue, but I believe because it is a small midi tower that whatever I do will not have crazy differences. The box has 3 x 120mm fans front (3 pin) and one 1 x120 rear (molex). At this stage I have moved a front fan for output (rear) with 3pin connection. On the front in the upper and lower position I have the Be Quiet Silent Wings 3 pwm / 1450 / 120mm and in the middle position an arctic 140 pwm pst. The fans are set to adjust according to the processor temperature. Later I plan to put a y splitter cable for the gpu.

At the moment I am looking at the cases of phanteks and especially the enthoo pro, enthoo pro M, as well as I have found on offer the CASE COUGAR PANZER MAX (126 euros now 149 euros) and COUGAR DARKBLADER-S ARGB (90 euros - used).


From what I see the COUGAR PANZER MAX:
is huge and gets front 3 x 140mm fans, 1 x 120 rear for export and 1 x 140 at the bottom for import. With this set up I have the impression that the airflow will be great.

About COUGAR DARKBLADER-S ARGB:
takes forward 3 x 140mm fans, 1 x 120 rear for export. This case due to the face will probably not have a satisfactory airflow. It also does not get a fan at the bottom.

I would like to ask your opinion, if you know, if it is worth getting a case from cougar or better to get one of phanteks than the ones I wrote to you. But I think because the phanteks only get 2 x 140 in front, maybe it is better to look at the panzermax.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## doyll

Hi *learner-gr *and wecome to forum.

Both Entho Pro and Pro M are good cases and come good fans as well, so no extra expense for good hi-pressure fans for case. They originally came with PH-F140SP fans, but now I think they now come with one that has same motor and housing but with PH-F140MP impeller. Put all in front as intakes and block openings in front half of case so all air pushed into case has to flow back and out, not leak around fans ending up going in circles.

5th post this thread give basics of case airflow, so if you haven't read it I suggest you give it a read.

I have no experience with either of the Cougar cases. They look okay, but I don't know what fans they come with. Do you know the specs of their fans>?

What are prices of Phanteks and Cougar cases?


----------



## Melcar

I would go for the Phanteks cases. First because I'm a huge Phanteks fanboy, and second because they have a bigger rear vent area for front to back airflow (I only air cool). Both Cougar bases only have enough room for a 120mm rear fan and very little venting areas besides the slotted PCI covers. If you opt to install a rear fan then you will be limited to 120mm ones. The Panzer Max seems a bit better in that it does not have the face shield, but again little rear vent area. Plenty of space up top, so it would make a great water cooling case with a large top mounted radiator. I don't think either of those cases would be an "upgrade" in cooling over what you currently have.
I have a Phanteks Pro and like the case. It's very modular in that you can easily remove nearly everything. Came with good 3pin fans too, tho I swapped them for PWM PH-F140MPs. Just make sure the cases you are looking at are the TG versions and not acrylic. Nothing overly wrong with acrylic except that it's a bit of a pain to take care off (scratches just by looking at it weird and needs special care to clean). Or get the closed panel versions if you don't care for a window.


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## doyll

Been looking at Cougar cases online and agree with what *Melcar* said above.

Front to back airflow is best because it moves GPU's heated exhaust back and out. Using top venting as exhaust moves GPU's heated exhaust up into front of CPU cooler pre-heating the cool air. Thus we end up with hotter air entering CPU cooler so higher CPU temperatures and higher fan speeds trying to control higher temps.


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## learner-gr

Prices of Phanteks and Cougar cases:
The Enthoo Pro starts from 130 Euros.
The Enthroo Pro M from 140-150 Euros. Found one used for 50-60 Euros and i think i will go for it 
The COUGAR PANZER MAX 150 Euro
The COUGAR DARKBLADER starts from 120 Euro. Found one used for 90 Euro.

I think i will go with the used Pro M.
The system i have uses Thermalright ARO-M14G for CPU cooling with Airflow 73.6 CFM at maximum RPM (140mm fan). The GPU is with two 90mm fans. So it uses a total 140+90+90 mm = 320mm.
If the Pro M have 2 x 140mm for front cooling we have a total 280mm. 
In an old post i read "*Theoretically' we want case to be flowing 25-50% more air than components so the airflow is pushing / holding their heated exhaust air away from their intakes*". 
Maybe its little for the 320 it needs?
If we want 25-50 % more air we would need to use a total of 400-480mm.


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## Melcar

learner-gr said:


> Prices of Phanteks and Cougar cases:
> The Enthoo Pro starts from 130 Euros.
> The Enthroo Pro M from 140-150 Euros. Found one used for 50-60 Euros and i think i will go for it
> The COUGAR PANZER MAX 150 Euro
> The COUGAR DARKBLADER starts from 120 Euro. Found one used for 90 Euro.
> 
> I think i will go with the used Pro M.
> The system i have uses Thermalright ARO-M14G for CPU cooling with Airflow 73.6 CFM at maximum RPM (140mm fan). The GPU is with two 90mm fans. So it uses a total 140+90+90 mm = 320mm.
> If the Pro M have 2 x 140mm for front cooling we have a total 280mm.
> In an old post i read "*Theoretically' we want case to be flowing 25-50% more air than components so the airflow is pushing / holding their heated exhaust air away from their intakes*".
> Maybe its little for the 320 it needs?
> If we want 25-50 % more air we would need to use a total of 400-480mm.


What ypu want is the CFM rating, not the mm. The CFM numbers quoted by most fan manufacturers are not always indicative of what the fan can do, but you can approximate. The CPU fan is around 73CFM and most GPU fans of that size end up pushing around 50CFM give or take. So your component CFM rating would be about 173CFM or so. The CFM coming into the case should be equal or more than that. If it's less consider a rear exhaust fan to help airflow, but chances are you won't need one. You will know more precisely once you set up the case.
The Pro M is a good case. You could go with 3x120mm fan intakes. Get two more of the SW3 fans and call it a day. Or just keep the stock fans that come with the Pro M since those are rather good.


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## doyll

What *Melcar* said is maybe a little over simplified, but then what I often say is maybe too complicated. 

I think CFM, size or mmH2O all have to be taken into account .. and then we have to try and determine what CFM and mmH2O would be at our normal operating speed of 600-800rpm with full load at maybe 1200-1400rpm. I always setup systems so case flows a little more air than components. If components are running too warm I setup remote sensor thermometer so sensor is in airflow into that component, then change case to component fan curves to get air temp entering component to 3c or less warmer than room. Sometimes it ends up 5c warmer with both CPU and GPU working hard.

CFM rating is fan at full speed with no resistance at full speed. Our use of fans (unless your are using them to move air around a room) always have resistance. 
Static pressure rating is only way we can get any idea of how much air our fans will flow, because our fans always have significant airflow resistance. 
A case intake fan rated 74cfm & 1.4mm H2O at 1200rpm will only flow about 10cfm though a grill and filter at 700rpm. 

Fans used in cases, on coolers, in GPUs, etc. always have things creating resistance. For fan to flow air it must be able to overcome resistance. 

Static pressure rating (mmH2O) means way more than CFM to me. 

To give you and idea of what mmH2O is, if you were standing at sea level with toes touching sea and your chin is 5 feet above our toes, your toes would have 1.836mmH2O more pressure on them then your chin. That pressure differential is basically same at higher elevations as well.

Another example is a person can blow about 1-2psi into a box or balloon. 
1psi is 703.08893732448-1406.177874649mmH2O.

Static pressure rating at speed we use our fans is way more important than CFM rating.


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## learner-gr

That's why i'm asking if the 2 x 140 phanteks fans of the enthoo pro m case are enough for case cooling with the Gigabyte GeForce RTX 2060 6GB OC rev graphics card and the Thermalright ARO-M14G.


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## doyll

Both mounted as front intakes with other openings in front have of case sealed off should work fine. 

Best way to tell is monitor air temp entering coolers under heavy load to see what it's temp is vs room ambient. If more than 5c and component is running too hot you need more case airflow. 

Think I've said it, but just in case, 5th post this thread is guide to optimizing case airflow.


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## learner-gr

Dear Doyll
The reason for me to look for a more efficient cooling of my computer was you 
I was generally looking for cooling issues and found the discussion you opened here. I have read up to 45 pages and I continue.
But because I found the opportunities I wrote, I decided to write here to ask what to get.
I missed the offer with the cougar panzer max and now I am looking for the used enthoo pro m.
But because it only gets 2x140mm fans in front I do not know if they would be enough for the system.
Worst of all, I might cut the floor and add a 120-inch or 140-bit fan to let in air to hit the graphics card.


----------



## doyll

The 2x stock 140mm fans that come in Enthoo Pro M mounted as front intakes with openings in front half of case blocked off so air has to flow on back to leave case works very well, even wiht all PCIe back slot covers removed do a very good. The 2x PH-F140SP or whatever case comes with will supply plenty of air. Set 1 case fan to cycle based on CPU temp and other to cycle bases on GPU temp and I doubt you will have any problems. AMO-R14G cooler doesn't use a lot of air. It's designed to use low-speed airflow. AMO cooler design was orginally HR-02 which was designed as a passive cooler or with low speed fan.


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## ciarlatano

learner-gr said:


> Dear Doyll
> The reason for me to look for a more efficient cooling of my computer was you
> I was generally looking for cooling issues and found the discussion you opened here. I have read up to 45 pages and I continue.
> But because I found the opportunities I wrote, I decided to write here to ask what to get.
> I missed the offer with the cougar panzer max and now I am looking for the used enthoo pro m.
> But because it only gets 2x140mm fans in front I do not know if they would be enough for the system.
> Worst of all, I might cut the floor and add a 120-inch or 140-bit fan to let in air to hit the graphics card.


I wanted to point a couple of things out about the Pro M specifically in regards to your thoughts.

First, the PSU shroud effectively cuts off a portion of the bottom airflow from the front intakes. With that in mind, you get significantly better performance from two 140mm fans mounted in the upper position than you would from three 120mm fans. With the PSU shroud, using three 120mm fans effectively has only the airflow from two being used with the bottom fan blowing under the PSU shroud.

With that, you can add an 80mm fan under the two 140mm should you need flow over HDDs.

Your thought of mounting a fan on the bottom also runs into the PSU shroud issue. The airflow would simply blow under the shroud and would never reach the GPU.

I have used several Pro M, and they flow very well. You should have no issues with airflow using the two included 140mm, which happen to be very good quality fans.


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## doyll

What ciarlatano said. He and I along with many others really like Phanteks cases and fans. Phanteks is one of only a few case that have good fans out of the box. Most others either come with not fans, fans that can barely do the job or like Fractal Design cases come with worthless fans. That said, Phanteks did sell some cases with worthless PH-F200SP fan. Fan was so worthless it wouldn't even move enough air to keep user cool with fan setting on desktop blowing at user from couple feet away.


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## learner-gr

ciarlatano thanks for yours thoughts.


Is the PSU shroud removable? If not, maybe cutting a piece of the shroud and also a bottom piece of case and then putting one 120mm on the floor would bring cool air onto the GPU. 
The bottom fan (enthoo pro M modding) came in my mind from Enthoo Pro case with a bottom fan.

If we look carefully in this photo : 


http://phanteks.com/images/product/Enthoo-Pro-M/Black/Pro-M-10z.jpg


If we place the 2x140mm fans in the front, then the 80mm fan from below may not fit.

I write the above as a thought. As you both say, it is most likely that with the 2 X 140 fans I will not have a problem, so the thought of a fan on the bottom is not needed.


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## ciarlatano

learner-gr said:


> If we look carefully in this photo :
> 
> 
> http://phanteks.com/images/product/Enthoo-Pro-M/Black/Pro-M-10z.jpg
> 
> 
> If we place the 2x140mm fans in the front, then the 80mm fan from below may not fit.


No, it fits with no alteration. With the two 140mm mounted in the upper spots, an 80mm fan will pressure fit below them (no need for screws). I used insulating foam on both sides to seal it (again, no tools). I've done this in a number of builds in this chassis (which is shared with the EVOLV ATX).


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## learner-gr

Great!!!
The 5,25" cage is removed to fit the 2x140 fans?

Also is the PSU cover removable?


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## doyll

Image ciarlatano posted above with 2x 140mm fans and 90mm has lots of opening between front and motherboard compartment. These holes will let the air fans push into motherboard compartment right back into front compartment where fans push it back into motherboard compartment going round and round and round instead of on through motherboard compartment and out back like we want.

Image of Enthoo Pro M grillwork on top of PSU shroud.








In front of grill in PSU shroud where we see screw slots is a removable panel. Sorry, haven't found a image of shroud with panel removed. But keep in mind grill mess like in PSU shroud greatly reduces airflow compared to not grill at all.


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## learner-gr

https://cdn.eteknix.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/DSC_2461.jpg




https://cdn.eteknix.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/DSC_2470.jpg


Here it shows the removable panel.
I can't find if the psu cover can be removed. As far as i can see it can't be removed.

Also here i think its riveted :


https://cdn.eteknix.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/DSC_2468.jpg


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## T.Sharp

Do you guys use custom foam / fiber intake filters? I replaced all the crappy plastic mesh filters on my Lian Li 205 with fiber pre-filter material that came with my air purifier. It can provide lower resistance to airflow and better filtration because it's 3D and the "filled space" between pores / openings is much smaller. I think thin sheets of reticulated foam would be ideal.


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## doyll

PSU shroud can be removed by drilling out the rivets, but then backplate for motherboard would have no support in lower right corner .. so probably not a good idea to remove it. I'm guessing that punched metal vent opens about 40-50% of it's area, so With tools and skills one could cut grill out, but honestly 2x 140mm fans mounted as high as possible works very well.

I've used stiff foam kitchen scouring pads cut to fit as filters. They are cheap copy of 3M Scotch-Brite.


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## T.Sharp

doyll said:


> I've used stiff foam kitchen scouring pads cut to fit as filters. They are cheap copy of 3M Scotch-Brite.


Nice, that’s basically what my pre-filter material is.


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## learner-gr

Anyone used this fan?


https://www.cooltek.de/page/view.product.php?x=95&y=103&id=1JBoe8-wdjmdz-as00d0-CwvgjB



can't find the static pressure


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## Skylinestar

My Fractal R5 front intakes are Phanteks PH-F140SP, set to medium speed with the case fan speed controller. How big is an upgrade by going to Arctic P14 or Noctua Redux NF-P14s 1500?

Is adding top fans (as intake) to cool the motherboard VRM a good idea?


----------



## T.Sharp

Skylinestar said:


> My Fractal R5 front intakes are Phanteks PH-F140SP, set to medium speed with the case fan speed controller. How big is an upgrade by going to Arctic P14 or Noctua Redux NF-P14s 1500?
> 
> Is adding top fans (as intake) to cool the motherboard VRM a good idea?


Between the Arctic and Redux, the Redux moves considerably more air at any speed. Never used the Phanteks, but based on specs, the Redux should move a lot more air.

Top exhaust makes more sense. Is your VRM getting too hot?


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## ciarlatano

Skylinestar said:


> My Fractal R5 front intakes are Phanteks PH-F140SP, set to medium speed with the case fan speed controller. How big is an upgrade by going to Arctic P14 or Noctua Redux NF-P14s 1500?
> 
> Is adding top fans (as intake) to cool the motherboard VRM a good idea?


The Arctic would essentially be a sidegrade in your application - quieter at like speeds, but less air movement at like speeds. The Redux would be a slight performance upgrade, but a big upgrade to the sound profile. The SP series are a good fan, but definitely don't have the most pleasant sound profile around. The Redux is much smoother, especially when you get above ~1100 rpm.


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## doyll

What ciarlatano said. 
Difference between PH-F140SP should be more than good enough case fans. I suggest you plug them into motherboard fan headers and have them cycle up and down same as cooler fans. This way they will run slower most of the time and only rev up as temperatures rise. If you haven't already read it, I suggest you read 5th post this thread about case airflow.


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## learner-gr

Hi there 
Finally got one Enthoo Pro M used for 62 euros with 2 x PH-F140SP. Behind i putted one BeQuietSilent Wings 3 120mm PWM 1450rpm fan i had from my old case (i have this to stop spinning under 40C cpu's temperature).
The PH-F140SP are 3 pin and spinning from 50-60% and up. Its between silent and medium noise levels when pc is idle.
I also have 2 x Arctic P14 pwm fans and found one used (2 months) NF-P14s redux-1500 PWM for 15 euro.

*Wondering if it would been a good thing to buy the NF-P14s redux-1500 PWM *for front upper fan to replace the PH-F140SP or to use the 2 x Arctic P14 pwm fans for fronts.

Found these from the official websites :



*FAN*​*RPM*​*CFM*​*mm/H2O *​* m³/h*​*db*​Arctic P14 pwm​200-1700​72,8​2,4​123.76​35,8​BeQuietSilent Wings 3 140mm PWM​1000​59,5​1,08​101.09​15,5​BeQuietSilent Wings 3 140mm PWM HIGH​200???-1600​77,57​2.16​131.79​28,1​Noctua NF-A15 PWM​300-1200​​1,51​115,5​19,2​Noctua NF-A14 PWM​300-1500​​2,08​140,2​24,6​NF-A14 industrialPPC-2000​500-2000​​4,18​182,5​31,5​NF-A14 industrialPPC-3000​800-3000​​10,52​269,3​41,3​NF-A14 industrialPPC-2000 ip67​500-2000​​4,18​182,5​31,5​NF-P14s redux-1500 PWM​450-1500​​1,91​133,7​25,8​NOISEBLOCKER BLACKSILENT PRO FAN PK-PS​400-1500​​1.32​121​29,2​Phanteks PH-F140MP​500-1600+/-250​68,1​1,62​​25,3​

Whats your opinion?


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## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Hi there
> Finally got one Enthoo Pro M used for 62 euros with 2 x PH-F140SP. Behind i putted one BeQuietSilent Wings 3 120mm PWM 1450rpm fan i had from my old case (i have this to stop spinning under 40C cpu's temperature).
> The PH-F140SP are 3 pin and spinning from 50-60% and up. Its between silent and medium noise levels when pc is idle.
> I also have 2 x Arctic P14 pwm fans and found one used (2 months) NF-P14s redux-1500 PWM for 15 euro.
> 
> *Wondering if it would been a good thing to buy the NF-P14s redux-1500 PWM *for front upper fan to replace the PH-F140SP or to use the 2 x Arctic P14 pwm fans for fronts.
> 
> Found these from the official websites :
> 
> 
> 
> *FAN*​*RPM*​*CFM*​*mm/H2O *​* m³/h*​*db*​Arctic P14 pwm​200-1700​72,8​2,4​123.76​35,8​BeQuietSilent Wings 3 140mm PWM​1000​59,5​1,08​101.09​15,5​BeQuietSilent Wings 3 140mm PWM HIGH​200???-1600​77,57​2.16​131.79​28,1​Noctua NF-A15 PWM​300-1200​​1,51​115,5​19,2​Noctua NF-A14 PWM​300-1500​​2,08​140,2​24,6​NF-A14 industrialPPC-2000​500-2000​​4,18​182,5​31,5​NF-A14 industrialPPC-3000​800-3000​​10,52​269,3​41,3​NF-A14 industrialPPC-2000 ip67​500-2000​​4,18​182,5​31,5​NF-P14s redux-1500 PWM​450-1500​​1,91​133,7​25,8​NOISEBLOCKER BLACKSILENT PRO FAN PK-PS​400-1500​​1.32​121​29,2​Phanteks PH-F140MP​500-1600+/-250​68,1​1,62​​25,3​
> 
> Whats your opinion?


Enthoo Pro M is good case, and the 2x PH-F140SP-ish fans are also good. I say "ish" because I don't think they have pads on corners. To solve the up&down rpm at low load you should be able to use fan control software (stock mobo or optional) to adjust fan rpm : temperature curves so fans don't speed up from normal idle speed until components get a few degrees hotter.
Silent Wings 3 is kinda wasted as exhaust fan. Maybe save it for another build. 
I assume you blocks all openings in front half of case not covered by 2x front intake fans so air they push in has to flow through case to exhaust vents, not lead around intake fans and end up going in circles.
No reason to get NF-P14 fans as they are only maginally better if at all better than what you have. You could replace stock front fans with Arctic P14 if you need higher fan speed to get needed airflow. They are similar noise levels at same speed as SP fans.


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## learner-gr

doyll thanks for your valuable help 
Yes the 2x PH-F140SP fans i have with the Enthoo Pro M case is without the rubber pads on the corners. Maybe on day i will try to cut some thin rubber pad and put it between case and fan to reduce sound from vibration. 
I'm using fan control from the bios (ASUS ROG CROSSHAIR VII HERO). Also i have used some software to control fan rpm but now i prefer the bios.
The fans (because they are 3 pin DC controlled) at idle have about 50-60% max rpm. If the CPU runs 40-45C and above then the fans speeding up and at 70-75C i have them to run at max speed.

The Silent Wings 3 i have maybe i will remove it.

The 2 x Arctic P14 i have maybe i will test them to see (temperatures) and hear (sound) the system if its better.

For NF-P14 i will not buy as they are only marginally better if at all better than what i have as you write.

As far as i can you don't even recommended to test *Noctua NF-A14 PWM* and keep the original PH-F140SP fans?


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## doyll

Indeed, I would use either the stock Phanteks fans both a front intakes and block all openings in their mounting panel not covered by them so the air they push into case can't move around through those holes to go in circle around and around through fan. I sometimes block off all openings in front half of case so airflow from front intakes has to move more than half way through case before it can exhaust. I also remove all PCIe back slot covers to increase vent area around GPU and thus have better front to back airflow.

Original SPs run up to 1200rpm, I think Artic P go up to 1700rpm. That means if you need more airflow to keep things cool (like in hot weather with dirty filters) they can move more air. Other than that I think PH-F140SP are very good. Are you sure you have PH-F140SP? Newer Phanteks cases come with fans using same motor and housing as SP with Ph-F140MP impellor .. which are even better fans. Impeller looks like this:










You are correct, as you already have 2 sets of good fans there no logical reason to get NF-A14 PWM. They are good fans, but only slightly if any better than Arctic P series which cost less than half as much or PH-F140SP or even better PH-F140MP costing 2/3rds as much.


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## learner-gr

Here is one photo of the carton box of the case :

When i will clean the front filter i may take a photo of the fans .


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## doyll

So you have the SP fans included in older cases. 
I've got in the habit of hoovering/cleaning case filters when I hoover house, which is about once a week. They don't need to be cleaned that often, but if I don't I forget, then after a couple months i notice temps being warmer and find filter a matt of off-white lint 6-8mm thick. So to me it makes sense to error on side of too often rather than not often enough


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## learner-gr

The case i bought (enthoo pro M) was used. The person i bought from buy it on 2017.
Maybe one day i will test the P14 for front fans if their better.


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## doyll

I wouldn't bother unless you have temp problems. I uses an Enthoo Pro M for a couple of years doing lots of graphic rendering which is high CPU use. Only case fans were 2 include PH-F140SP mounted in front as intakes with all openings not covered by them taped off so none of the air they were pushing into motherboard compartment could leak around into area between front grill and fans and go in circles, but had to move on though case to go out exhaust vents in back. 

I just did a 3600 build in Evolv mATX case using 2x PH-F140MP as front intakes. I did some test runs before blocking off opening in fan mounting panel between front of case and motherboard compartment, then taped off all openings and ran same test again. Temps with openings taped off were 3-5c lower at idle and 7-9c lower under load, fans rans 150-250rpm slower so under load intakes run 7-800rpm (not audible) and CPU cooler fan runs 1000-1100rpm (just audible) instead of 1l50-1300rpm (quite loud). That's a big difference in my book, and only take a couple minutes and a few pieces of tape.


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## learner-gr

I opened the front panel and saw that the PH-F140SP fans have 7 blades so they have Ph-F140MP impellor.

At Phanteks site i saw that they have a new version of Ph-F140MP v2 that speed up from 500 to 2000 +/- 10%rpm with 3.59 mmH2O and also with Daisy Chain Cable .


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## doyll

That's good news!

PH-F140MP









-
PH-F140SP










PH-F140MP is better fan than PH-F140SP even though it's specs don't show how much better it is. MP impeller overcomes grill and filter resistance better so moves more air at lower rpm than SP impeller does.


----------



## learner-gr

Wondering about the Ph-F140MP v2 ... 😁


----------



## Melcar

You may not like the sound profile of that case fan. The same fan came with my Enthoo pro and the noise it makes at top speed (1150-1200rpm) bothers me a bit. The actual PH-F140MPs I have don't sound even remotely similar at the same rpm, so I don't know what the issue is. I mean, it's not awful or anything. Chances are you won't be running those fans much faster than 1000rpm in normal conditions, so it may be a moot point to make. They are not loud fans, so unless you have your case right in your face the sound signature probably won't bother you.


----------



## learner-gr

Some experiments...

Case : Enthoo Pro M
Temperature : C
CPU : RYZEN 3700X
GPU : GIGABYTE 2060 OC V2.0 (2 fans)

The upper front P14 fan is behind fan base and the lower is in front of fan base.
I also placed paper tape to fill the gaps to avoid the air to go back and forth.
On the corners of the P14's placed some triangle rubber pieces to reduce any vibrations. But because a gap of about 1mm was created, I placed paper tape



​*ROOM TEMPERATURE* : 22,5​​​*HUMIDITY*​40,00%​*test with linpack for 5min *​​​​​​*IDLE*​*MAX*​​Decibels with smartphone​FANS​Front : 2 X PH-F140SP phanteks case 3 pin​​*CPU*​35​69​​43db max – 38-39avg​​Back : 1 X Be Quiet 120pwm 1450rpm​​*VRM*​30​38​​​​​​*CHIPSET IDLE/MAX*​41​44​​​​​​*GPU*​35​36,5​​​​​​*MEM*​30 both​31,5 and 32,5​​​​​​​​​​​FANS​Front : 2 X Arctic P14 pwm​​*CPU*​34,5​68​​44db max – 40avg​​Back : None​​*VRM*​29​37​​​​​​*CHIPSET IDLE/MAX*​39​39​​​​​​*GPU*​35​36,5​​​​​​*MEM*​29 and 30​27 and 28​​​


----------



## learner-gr

Now its night here. 23,5 room temperature.
The 3700x has 37-38C. The 2060 42C.
The thermalright cpu fan has 670rpm and the 2 X Arctic p14 660rpm.
The db meter with smartphone is 30max and 26-28avg.
Pretty silent.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Now its night here. 23,5 room temperature.
> The 3700x has 37-38C. The 2060 42C.
> The thermalright cpu fan has 670rpm and the 2 X Arctic p14 660rpm.
> The db meter with smartphone is 30max and 26-28avg.
> Pretty silent.


Good temps.  
I assume basically both CPU & GPU idling with a few browser windows open. 
What do temps and fans' speeds do under heavy load like gaming?
How far from sound source are you getting readings of 26-28dBA?
30dB is gererally accepted as ambient noise level in a very quiet room, like 4AM in quiet neighborhood. I'm suspecting you are less than 1 meter / 1 yard from sound source with your 26-28dB .. or maybe meter is not quite accurate. Any way you put it yoru system seems to be running very quiete adn cooling very well. Real test is what it does when working hard, like what GPU temps are while gaming for 20-30 minutes and still gaming. Or working CPU at 80-90% load all cores for several minutes before comparing CPU temp against room ambient.


----------



## learner-gr

When i did the test i had about 120  open tabs (opera browser).
The smartphone was at the base of phantek case. I have an app named "Ηχόμετρο". I don't know if it is accurate.
I had 44db max and 40db avg when i tested with linpack benchmark for 5 minutes and of course the 120 open tabs.
The 30db max and 26-28db avg was at idle at late night when all was sleeping except me 

I will test again if one day i play a game.


----------



## doyll

That's a lot of windows open! I start closing the when I reach 12-14 web windows open. But open windows use very little CPU or GPU. 40dB and 44dB with smartphone at base of case would be about 27-30dB a meter / yard from source. The 26-2dB avg with 30dB max is expected readings for a very quiet room late at night with everyone else sleeping. 

Normal conversation in restaurant, office, background music, Air conditioning unit at 100 ft is considered to be 60db
Library, bird calls (44dB), lowest limit of urban ambient noise noise is 40dB
Very quiet library, a whisper is 30dB

Do you have case setting on your desk or on floor? 

Again, sounds like you've build a very quiet and good cooling computer.


----------



## learner-gr

The case is kept in a wood cabinet of a computer desk - library with the back of it open. Inside the red drawing

The system was set up with your *valuable *help, which of course you got the knowledge from others. 
Like others, I thought that with the box full of fans I would have the best cooling. But in the end things are completely different. 
At one point I was tempted to try water cooling but fortunately I happened to read your *valuable *post.
Thanks a lot !!!


----------



## doyll

Nice! 
Look like a very well organized desk / computer area. 
Thanks for you help with details of setup and how it cools. While I've done a lot of builds, the results of others add a wealth of information to knowledge base.


----------



## IANVS

I'm toying with the idea of switching from my current Raijintek Thetis back to Define R4 or possibly Define S. I already have 3 of Noctua's P14s Redux 1500 fans. Where can I best use them and what else to get to compliment them in one of those two cases...?

As a note, I'll probably be using the bottom intake to cool the GPU (Strix 1080Ti), along the front intakes, if it makes any difference...
Also, I'm currently using the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 120 for the CPU, got it to make the Thetis build cleaner. I'm guesing it would be better to switch back to PH-TC14PE if I use Fractals...


----------



## doyll

IANVS said:


> I'm toying with the idea of switching from my current Raijintek Thetis back to Define R4 or possibly Define S. I already have 3 of Noctua's P14s Redux 1500 fans. Where can I best use them and what else to get to compliment them in one of those two cases...?
> 
> As a note, I'll probably be using the bottom intake to cool the GPU (Strix 1080Ti), along the front intakes, if it makes any difference...
> Also, I'm currently using the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 120 for the CPU, got it to make the Thetis build cleaner. I'm guesing it would be better to switch back to PH-TC14PE if I use Fractals...


I like both R4 and S cases, but I like R4 better because it can use 3x 140mm front intakes. With all PCIe slot covers removed, 3x good 140mm fans (like you have) in front and block off all holes//openings in front not covered by them so air pushed into case has to flow on through and you should be fine. Maybe block front half of top vent so cool air from top front intake can't come out before reaching CPU cooler. Maybe block bottom vent, hard to say. With 3x 140mm in front we end up with almost all of case resection of moving air from front to back, so good smooth airflow. 

I would definitely use PH-TC14PE cooler. They are very good, some better than others depending on which fan yours has. Later models use PH-F140MP impeller which moves more air at low speed than older fans.


----------



## IANVS

doyll said:


> I like both R4 and S cases, but I like R4 better because it can use 3x 140mm front intakes. With all PCIe slot covers removed, 3x good 140mm fans (like you have) in front and block off all holes//openings in front not covered by them so air pushed into case has to flow on through and you should be fine. Maybe block front half of top vent so cool air from top front intake can't come out before reaching CPU cooler. Maybe block bottom vent, hard to say. With 3x 140mm in front we end up with almost all of case resection of moving air from front to back, so good smooth airflow.
> 
> I would definitely use PH-TC14PE cooler. They are very good, some better than others depending on which fan yours has. Later models use PH-F140MP impeller which moves more air at low speed than older fans.


Wait, you can fit a 3rd intake fan on R4? Didn't know that...Define S can't?
There's an issue with that, though - I have 2 hard drives and if I remove all the drive cages like I should, the only place for them that I have is the ODD bay, via adapters. If you need to remove that too in order to fit the 3rd fan, I have no place for HDDs.

What about exhaust fan(s)? F140MPs are good?

My TC14PE has old F140TS fans...they'll certainly do the job on 10400F that I have and they're very quiet, but it wouldn't hurt having something with a bit more juice for when I get an upgrade...


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> I like both R4 and S cases, but I like R4 better because it can use 3x 140mm front intakes.


You've got that backwards. The Define S can use 3 x 140mm front intakes. You would have to butcher an R4 to do that, if it could even be done.


----------



## IANVS

ciarlatano said:


> You've got that backwards. The Define S can use 3 x 140mm front intakes. You would have to butcher an R4 to do that, if it could even be done.


Yeah, it got me confused too, then I remembered the layout of Define S... 

Looking at it, Define S wins for me. It has better intake, better ModuVent system, no issues with mounting HDDs and no door in the way (and I don't mind removing the front panel either, it would sit on the floor anyway).
Also, the front I/O on my R4 is broken, only the USB3 ports work, heh.


----------



## doyll

IANVS said:


> Wait, you can fit a 3rd intake fan on R4? Didn't know that...Define S can't?
> There's an issue with that, though - I have 2 hard drives and if I remove all the drive cages like I should, the only place for them that I have is the ODD bay, via adapters. If you need to remove that too in order to fit the 3rd fan, I have no place for HDDs.
> 
> What about exhaust fan(s)? F140MPs are good?
> 
> My TC14PE has old F140TS fans...they'll certainly do the job on 10400F that I have and they're very quiet, but it wouldn't hurt having something with a bit more juice for when I get an upgrade...


My bad, as ciarlatano says, I got it backwards. Define S takes 3x front while Define R2 takes 2x front and 1x bottom 140mm and S support 3x 140mm front. Go with the S for sure!


----------



## IANVS

Yeah, I most likely will...it also supports a bottom intake.

Any suggestions for exhaust, any fans, how many...?


----------



## doyll

IANVS said:


> Yeah, I most likely will...it also supports a bottom intake.
> 
> Any suggestions for exhaust, any fans, how many...?


I rarely use exhaust fans. 2-3x 140mm good pressure rated intakes and all holes in front or maybe front half of case not covered by these intake fams makes a setup that quietly flows air front to back. I've found using both intake and exhaust case fans is like push pull on cooler and radiators. Almost no difference in cooling. Maybe a couple degrees at full speed but also a few dB louder. Push fans at same noise level as push/pull fans move same amount of air giving same cooling. Push fan at about 100rpm higher speed makes same noise and airflow as push/pull fans, so only time there is a difference in cooling is if case fans are at full speed .. but in my systems fans never run full speed.


----------



## IANVS

Phanteks F140MP vs. Scythe Kaze Flex 140 PWM 1200, providing they both run at 900-1200 RPM...?


----------



## Melcar

IANVS said:


> Phanteks F140MP vs. Scythe Kaze Flex 140 PWM 1200, providing they both run at 900-1200 RPM...?


The Scythe will probably be pushing a bit more air, but the Phanteks would be quieter. Those Scythes look similar to Noctua NF-A14 a Thermalright TY fans, so performance wise it may be similar to those. The MP fans are a bit weaker but noticeably quieter (if you keep them below 1300rpm). From videos I have seen, the 140mm Kaze-Flex are a bit on the loud side.


----------



## IANVS

I'm talking the 1200 RPM Scythe, not 1800 RPM version. This one should be quieter but, at the same time, Phanteks sould outperform it slightly.
Personally, I'm leaning towards Phanteks, I just wanted some feedback on Kaze Flex...


----------



## doyll

I can't say as I have seen no testing of Kaze Flex 140 PWM. Factory specs are 67.27cfm or 1.25mmH2O @ 1200rpm with clockwise impeller rotation compared to PH-F140MP in independent testing has 68.1cfm or 1.715mmH2O @ 1222rpm, at 1075rpm it has 61.7cfm or 1.334mmH2O with counterclockwise rotation (same as most fans). This indicates both have similar free /unrestricted airflow while PH-F140MP with it's higher pressure readings can overcome airflow resistance better .. higher pressure rating translates into more airflow through restrictions (IE gril, filter, etc). I think I would be happy using either of these fans.


----------



## IANVS

Independent testing? Can I see it somewhere, I'm curious?

I was considering Kaze Flex as exhaust fan(s), as it's pretty quiet and not expensive, just as an alternative to Phanteks. I'd rather put Phanteks on intake, though.
I do have the P14s Redux 1500s which are very capable, but Phanteks is more silent, the cable is longer ('m not sure the cable on Noctua will reach if I try to hide it behind the mobo tray) and the corners are rubberized...plus, I have the black+white or pure black option to fit the case better, as opposed to gray. Noctua can also do fine as exhaust on lower RPM, they move decent air...

BTW, only the V2 version of F140MP is available to me, so it may be a chance to test them. They should perform similar to older F140MP on same RPM...
Also, they have daisy chain, which is nice.

I'm still not decided on fans, I have few setups in mind and some experiments to do.
Like, keep using the Liquid Freezer 120 for CPU, mounted in top front position (if the hoses reach) with 2 fans below it to blow towards the GPU.
Maybe try adding a bottom intake...trying furthest top (or even middle?) as exhaust...
I also intend to deshroud the GPU and strap 2 120mm fans on it, which will effectively make it a 4-slot card and place it closer to PSU, reducing airflow...
A number of things to play with.


----------



## doyll

IANVS said:


> Independent testing? Can I see it somewhere, I'm curious?
> 
> I was considering Kaze Flex as exhaust fan(s), as it's pretty quiet and not expensive, just as an alternative to Phanteks. I'd rather put Phanteks on intake, though.
> I do have the P14s Redux 1500s which are very capable, but Phanteks is more silent, the cable is longer ('m not sure the cable on Noctua will reach if I try to hide it behind the mobo tray) and the corners are rubberized...plus, I have the black+white or pure black option to fit the case better, as opposed to gray. Noctua can also do fine as exhaust on lower RPM, they move decent air...
> 
> BTW, only the V2 version of F140MP is available to me, so it may be a chance to test them. They should perform similar to older F140MP on same RPM...
> Also, they have daisy chain, which is nice.
> 
> I'm still not decided on fans, I have few setups in mind and some experiments to do.
> Like, keep using the Liquid Freezer 120 for CPU, mounted in top front position (if the hoses reach) with 2 fans below it to blow towards the GPU.
> Maybe try adding a bottom intake...trying furthest top (or even middle?) as exhaust...
> I also intend to deshroud the GPU and strap 2 120mm fans on it, which will effectively make it a 4-slot card and place it closer to PSU, reducing airflow...
> A number of things to play with.


Go to 


https://www.coolingtechnique.com/



And search for fan you are interested in. They haven't done much in recent years but did test a lot of older fans. 
Note: They did not test PH-F140MP, but the PH-F140HP II which is same fan in housing designed for coolers.

Or you could just use not exhaust fans which will be obviously quieter and cost even less. I still do several builds a month and have found just intakes works very well. I haven't needed an exhaust fan in so long I can't remember the last time. My air temp entering cooler fans is always less than 3c warmer than air entering case from room. I know because I use those air temps to setup system airflow on my builds. 😉

Yes, new PH-F140MP V2 should perform same as original MP at same speeds. 

Daisy chain can be good or bad. Have to be careful to not overload fan headers and/or PWM controls. If running more than a couple fans I use PWM hubs with PSU power. Generally motherboard PWM circuits can control 6-8 fans before it starts flaking out, but sometimes (some fans) on 3 maybe only 1 or 2 PWM fans can be speed controlled.

You could put CLC in front, or put it in top as exhaust using top front intake fan to supply airflow to CLC. Best way to what works best is monitoring air temp entering cooler fans and adjusting case fan speed / placement / ducting to find lowest air temps entering coolers at lowest fan speeds for both case and cooler. 

Indeed, the key to cool and quiet systems is as much about case airflow setup (probably more) than what components and fans are being used .. although good cooler and fans do make a big difference as well.


----------



## IANVS

Ah yes. I forgot the F140HP is basically MP in round frame...

I _may _need exhaust fans because if I deshroud the GPI as I planned, there will be less room in the back for air to exit due to GPU being extra thick then and covering much of the PCI slots in the back. Also, for whatever reason, Fractal decided to not include any holes and perforations on the back of Define S other than back fan mount and PCI slots. That reduces exhaust potential.

Here's an example...this guy has roughly the same setup as I will - Define S, deshrouded 1080Ti and a CLC:










As you can see, majority of PCI slots on the case is blocked and GPU fans are close to PSU (luckily, my PSU is 3cm shorter). So, I'm thinking a bottom intake and back exhaust to in tandem feed the GPU with fresh air and push up and exhaust hot air from it. My 120mm CLC would go in top front slot for fresh air, with 2 intakes below it.

Dunno, maybe I'm overthinking it, lol...that's prolly too many fans in play. I'll start with 3 or 4 and see how it fares...


----------



## doyll

There's not a huge difference in front to back case airflow using 25mm thick fans. Removing PCIe slot covers, even vented ones greatly improves airflow. PCIe slot spacing is 20.3mm with slot opening being about 12.7-13mm wide, so 25mm thick fan is blocking about 1 more PCIe slots than a 12mm thick fan does. Removing PCIe slot covers improves rear vent area and airflow way more than the added blockage of 25mm fan/s. Punched metal grills (like on PCIe slot covers) reduce airflow to 40-80% as much as open slot / vent flows.  Bottom intake may help. Best way to find out is monitor air temp entering fans with system running from idle to full load and adjusting case fan speed and placement to get them to 3c or less warmer than room.


----------



## IANVS

I went on and moved the system to Define S today.
I left my impressions in Fractal owners thread, so I don't clutter this one any further: [Official] Fractal Design Case Club


----------



## doyll

That's the kind of results I love seeing.  
Please let us know how GPU fan change works out.


----------



## TeslaHUN

I have a Desk pc project in progress ( lian li DK 05x +watercooling in the future,for now aircooling only) . I have dilemma about "case" intake fans . Stock it can take 6x120mm fan in front but in a wierd 45 degree angle ,so im going to mod it (with plexi wall and cut holes for fans >straight front>back airflow) .
I will be able to put 9x120mm Arctic P12 argb (117 eur) or 7x140mm Silverstone AP140i argb (84eur) or 5x 200mm Thermaltake Pure20 white LED (47 eur) in front . What would u choose ?


----------



## learner-gr

New Noctua fanless cooler is coming :








Noctua gets it


Noctua 's Jakob Dellinger answers the most recurrent (and tiresome) question about passive cooling... [RelaxedTech]: Why would someone buy a...




www.fanlesstech.com




Thermal design power : 120w


----------



## IANVS

I got 3 of the Phanteks F140MP V2 to replace the Noctua Redux 1500 in Define S. It was a disappointment.
They're so damn loud...up until 900 RPM they're pretty decent, below 800 inaudible, but as soon as they break 900 RPM they start to sound like a propeller engine of a small airplane, at 1200+ they're really noisy.

First I thought there's some issue with daisychain, because I chained 2 of them in front on a single header. Tried changing the header, same deal. Tried hooking each one individually on different headers, no good. Still going brrrrrrr....the one in the back too.
So, I took them out and brought the Noctuas back. I ramped them up manually to same RPM as Phanteks to compare and they sound much better. Still audible above 1000 RPM but noticeably quieter and lower pitched.

What a bummer...I thought the V2 will perform just as quiet as the V1 but there's gotta be some catch...


----------



## Melcar

IANVS said:


> I got 3 of the Phanteks F140MP V2 to replace the Noctua Redux 1500 in Define S. It was a disappointment.
> They're so damn loud...up until 900 RPM they're pretty decent, below 800 inaudible, but as soon as they break 900 RPM they start to sound like a propeller engine of a small airplane, at 1200+ they're really noisy.
> 
> First I thought there's some issue with daisychain, because I chained 2 of them in front on a single header. Tried changing the header, same deal. Tried hooking each one individually on different headers, no good. Still going brrrrrrr....the one in the back too.
> So, I took them out and brought the Noctuas back. I ramped them up manually to same RPM as Phanteks to compare and they sound much better. Still audible above 1000 RPM but noticeably quieter and lower pitched.
> 
> What a bummer...I thought the V2 will perform just as quiet as the V1 but there's gotta be some catch...


Probably due to the motor the V2s are using. It's either a supped up one from the older MPs, or a completely different one. It seems Phanteks ended up with the same issue Noctua had with the IPPC line. The original MP is already rather loud at +1300rpm, so I can't imagine the V2. How is the cooling performance?


----------



## IANVS

They blow nicely, as expected from their specs, but that noise was a really bad surprise...
There's definitely something funky about them, they more than doubled the static pressure with just +400 RPM and even the rated noise level is much higher (which should have been a giveaway, but...). I doubt the motor is same as in V1, and if it is then it's clearly not tuned for this increase in RPM...


----------



## doyll

Are they higher noise level at same RPM as lower speed MPs at same speed?


----------



## IANVS

Unfortunately, I don't have the V1 to compare...


----------



## doyll

If you don't have MP impeller case fans or MP V1 how do you know they are louder? Obviously V2 is louder at full speed because the higher the rpm the louder they become. Most good fans are almost silent up to about 800rpm, then get progressively louder as speeds increase.


----------



## IANVS

I don't know if they're louder than V1, I said they're louder than Noctua Redux 1500, and at same RPM.


----------



## doyll

So you are saying V2 is louder than Redux 1500, but is that with both running full speed or running same speed? How are system temps with V2 fnas at same Db level as Redux 1500 fans?


----------



## IANVS

At same speeds, I was adjusting them manually in Argus Monitor.

I didn't really pay attention to temps because my time was limited and I was annoyed, trying different connecting setups with Phanteks and swapping fans in and out.
In hindsight, I should have tested and compared temperatures, just for reference, but...


----------



## Melcar

I seem to remember from Thermalbench that the Redux was a tiny bit better in the airflow department compared to the MPs, and the MPs being quieter (at least in data). If the MP V2s are just the same MP fans with a different motor, then I guess we can assume in terms of airflow capabilities it would be the same story.


----------



## Shenhua

Skylinestar said:


> My Fractal R5 front intakes are Phanteks PH-F140SP, set to medium speed with the case fan speed controller. How big is an upgrade by going to Arctic P14 or Noctua Redux NF-P14s 1500?


Most likely not a lot, if any.


T.Sharp said:


> Between the Arctic and Redux, the Redux moves considerably more air at any speed. Never used the Phanteks, but based on specs, the Redux should move a lot more air.


Yeah, it also creates a hell of a lot more noise. The redux at 1k rpm, produces the same noise like the arctic at around 1250-1350rpm.


----------



## learner-gr

Have anyone tried Be Quiet Silentwings 3 High-Speed PWM 140mm * vs  *Arctic p14 fans?


----------



## T.Sharp

Shenhua said:


> Yeah, it also creates a hell of a lot more noise. The redux at 1k rpm, produces the same noise like the arctic at around 1250-1350rpm.


Well in my testing it seems like the Redux at 1000 RPM moves more air than the Arctic at ~1300 RPM. And the tone of the Redux is easier on the ears than the Arctic.


----------



## TeslaHUN

I have a brilliant idea about dustree high airflow system. 
If you have an air filter/purifier in your room , for example Xiaomi MI Air Purifier 3c or whatever ,just an unit with flat room and fan blowing up . These purifiers eliminate all the dust with HEPA filters , and still push like 300CFM . Now what if u put ur computer case on top of this purifier (ofc rotate the case 90degree : computer's front mesh -intake area > attached to the purifier's top mesh -clean air exit) , and seal the gaps with tape or some kind of shroud . 
300CFM clean air pushed into the computer 
I think this would worl like a charm. Clean room and clean -cool PC at same time !


----------



## Shenhua

In theory yeah. But if they add any chemical component while filtering the dust, you might be F*****

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## TeslaHUN

Shenhua said:


> In theory yeah. But if they add any chemical component while filtering the dust, you might be F*****
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk


 Nah , they are simple machines just a hepa filter + a big fan ,no chemicals.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> I have a brilliant idea about dustree high airflow system.
> If you have an air filter/purifier in your room , for example Xiaomi MI Air Purifier 3c or whatever ,just an unit with flat room and fan blowing up . These purifiers eliminate all the dust with HEPA filters , and still push like 300CFM . Now what if u put ur computer case on top of this purifier (ofc rotate the case 90degree : computer's front mesh -intake area > attached to the purifier's top mesh -clean air exit) , and seal the gaps with tape or some kind of shroud .
> 300CFM clean air pushed into the computer
> I think this would worl like a charm. Clean room and clean -cool PC at same time !


I think I'm in same boat shenhua is on this. While your suggested combination might work, it's rating is similar airflow needed for good case airflow. Add in case resistance and flow will be significantly reduced. If you do build one of these combos, please start a thread about it with all the details. That we can all learn how well/bad it ends up being?


----------



## Shawnb99

TeslaHUN said:


> I have a brilliant idea about dustree high airflow system.
> If you have an air filter/purifier in your room , for example Xiaomi MI Air Purifier 3c or whatever ,just an unit with flat room and fan blowing up . These purifiers eliminate all the dust with HEPA filters , and still push like 300CFM . Now what if u put ur computer case on top of this purifier (ofc rotate the case 90degree : computer's front mesh -intake area > attached to the purifier's top mesh -clean air exit) , and seal the gaps with tape or some kind of shroud .
> 300CFM clean air pushed into the computer
> I think this would worl like a charm. Clean room and clean -cool PC at same time !


Love to see you try this


----------



## Nighthog

I think having a air purifier in the same room or vicinity of the PC will help a lot on it's own rather than trying something more of a exotic setup.


----------



## doyll

I think you are correct. If the air in the room is being kept clean, then the air entering computer will be clean as well. Clean air means less dust going into / collecting on case filters and getting inside of case.


----------



## TeslaHUN

I open window on mornings /nights to let the room cool down . Air conditioning units are not common in EU . So you cant really keep room air clean. Purifier runing ,why add more noise by computer fans when you can clean ur air and cool the pc at same time with one device


----------



## DBCooper1

TeslaHUN said:


> I have a brilliant idea about dustree high airflow system.
> If you have an air filter/purifier in your room , for example Xiaomi MI Air Purifier 3c or whatever ,just an unit with flat room and fan blowing up . These purifiers eliminate all the dust with HEPA filters , and still push like 300CFM . Now what if u put ur computer case on top of this purifier (ofc rotate the case 90degree : computer's front mesh -intake area > attached to the purifier's top mesh -clean air exit) , and seal the gaps with tape or some kind of shroud .
> 300CFM clean air pushed into the computer
> I think this would worl like a charm. Clean room and clean -cool PC at same time !


I do that with mine!


----------



## kiriakos

DBCooper1 said:


> I do that with mine!


Some suggestions its best to be ignored. 
The specific it is one of them.


----------



## learner-gr

Because I have a little appetite to experiment with gpu card temperatures I said to do a test with the following:
My graphics card has a 4pin socket to power its two fans.
I was thinking of buying this cable:








Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter


Buy Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)




www.moddiy.com




(Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter)

In the two positions 4-Pin PWM Fan I will place 2 silent wings fans 3 120 pwm that I already have in my possession. In the other 4-Pin PWM Fan position I will connect the 140mm bottom fan that I have on the front of my computer case.

I say do this thoughtfully as the speed of the graphics card goes up (silent wings 3 120 pwm) so that the speeds of the front lower fan of my case go up as well, so that the graphics card gets the right amount of air and the noise is reduced from the front fan when the graphics card is not strained.

What do you think?


----------



## Melcar

learner-gr said:


> Because I have a little appetite to experiment with gpu card temperatures I said to do a test with the following:
> My graphics card has a 4pin socket to power its two fans.
> I was thinking of buying this cable:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter
> 
> 
> Buy Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.moddiy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter)
> 
> In the two positions 4-Pin PWM Fan I will place 2 silent wings fans 3 120 pwm that I already have in my possession. In the other 4-Pin PWM Fan position I will connect the 140mm bottom fan that I have on the front of my computer case.
> 
> I say do this thoughtfully as the speed of the graphics card goes up (silent wings 3 120 pwm) so that the speeds of the front lower fan of my case go up as well, so that the graphics card gets the right amount of air and the noise is reduced from the front fan when the graphics card is not strained.
> 
> What do you think?


Works great. I have a similar setup. Just be mindful of the amp load you will be using. I have never seen a spec. sheet for the PWM plugs on graphics cards, but I assume they are rated for 1A like in most cases. I have all my GPU fans hooked up to a powered PWM spliter just for peace of mind. Cable management is a pain of course.


----------



## doyll

What Melcar said, he's using a "powered PWM splitter" meaning power is from PSU.
GPU is not powering the fans, only controlling them with PWM signal.

I would try adjusting case fan speed with motherboard software rather than with splitter adapter you linked to. Many motherboard fan control software will control some case fans by GPU temp.

Your GPU fan header is designed to power it's 2 small fans,
not it's 2 small fans and 2 more 120mm fans. 
Trying to run 4 fans all powered by GPU header might damage GPU fan header.


----------



## learner-gr

Melcar do you have a link of the powered PWM spliter you have?


----------



## doyll

Here are some on same sight you linked to:








PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved


Buy PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)




www.moddiy.com













HP DL160G6 DL180G6 SE316M1 4 Pin PWM Fan Power Cable 2 x Fan


Buy HP DL160G6 DL180G6 SE316M1 4 Pin PWM Fan Power Cable 2 x Fan for $9.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)




www.moddiy.com













SATA Power Distribution PCB 6-Way 3-Pin Block Fan Hub Power Splitter


Buy SATA Power Distribution PCB 6-Way 3-Pin Block Fan Hub Power Splitter for $9.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)




www.moddiy.com





Some other links:
https://cpc.farnell.com/akasa/ak-cb...PING&s_kwcid=AL!5616!3!491034912151!!!network}!890626984942!&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIv-uC2syk8gIVQeN3Ch0sQgWQEAQYASABEgKc2_D_BwE









Amazon.com: CRJ 15-Pin Male SATA to 4 Fan 12V Sleeved Power Adapter Cable : Electronics


Buy CRJ 15-Pin Male SATA to 4 Fan 12V Sleeved Power Adapter Cable: Power Cords - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





Hope those help


----------



## learner-gr

doyll thanks for the post but none of them have the mini 4-pin gpu plug so i can't control the rpm of the fans via the gpu card.
With the above links all the fans will work on maximum rpm.


----------



## Hale59

Snip


----------



## learner-gr

what i have to snip?


----------



## Shawnb99

learner-gr said:


> doyll thanks for the post but none of them have the mini 4-pin gpu plug so i can't control the rpm of the fans via the gpu card.
> With the above links all the fans will work on maximum rpm.


The first one linked has the separate cables for the PWM control.


----------



## learner-gr

Yes the first one has the separate cables for the PWM control but it connects to the PWM signal input from the mainboard to control up the 4 PWM fans. 
It doesn't take the gpu's (mini 4pin gpu plug) pwm signal input. 
I want to take the gpu's pwn signal input to control 2x120mm pwm fans (they will stay on gpu) and 1x140mm bottom front case fan.


----------



## doyll

What Shawn99 said.

If you got first one, just splice GPU PWM fan plug on in place of standard PWM fan plug .. or splice PWM lead from GPU to PWM lead in splitter so PWM is going to both case PMW fans and GPU PWM fans. 

That or you would use a mini 4-pin similar to what you linked. Quick search of ModDIY came up with single fan one linked below:








ASUS GPU 7 Pin to Single 4 Pin PWM 12v Fan Deshroud Adapter Cable


Buy ASUS GPU 7 Pin to Single 4 Pin PWM 12v Fan Deshroud Adapter Cable for $9.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)




www.moddiy.com





But does your GPU have an unused fan header? Because if it doesn't (most don't), how do you plan to plug GPU fans and adapter into GPU's 1 fan header?
The adapter you linked only has case fan sockets and plugs into GPU fan socket, so where do you plan to plug GPU fans?

I've made my own several times. I use plug & leads off of dead/surplus GPU fan, PWM fan sockets & leads off of dead splitter, and molex / SATA plug & leads off of surplus PSU cable. cut wires to lengths needed and splice leads together, job done. See below wiring diagram:








Above diagram has 12v power and ground in Molex plug for power from PSU, but Sata is what I use now.
Google 'Sata pin-out' to find 12v & ground pin-out.

In your application you probably won't have rpm lead to GPU plug.

Above diagram also has extra PWM fan plug with RPM lead from one fan so you can see what speed case fan/s run.


----------



## learner-gr

Sorry if I 'm upsetting you but because I would not want to cut cables and cancel any graphics card warranty I would prefer a ready-made solution.
That's why I put this cable:








Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter


Buy Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)




www.moddiy.com





I thought I could do the job. With this cable I intended to connect the Mini 4-Pin GPU end to the socket of my graphics card (which has a 4pin pwm plug) and the other three of the four ends with:
a) 2X120mm fans [0.12A * 2 fans = 0.24A] and b) 1x140mm [0.5A] fan. That is, total according to bequiet 0.74A.
I hope it can give this current.


If anyone knows of a ready-made cable that has a Mini 4-Pin pwm GPU plug on one end and 3-4 pwm 4pin fans on the other end and all this is powered by either molex or sata plug, please write it down.

Thanks.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Sorry if I 'm upsetting you but because I would not want to cut cables and cancel any graphics card warranty I would prefer a ready-made solution.
> That's why I put this cable:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter
> 
> 
> Buy Mini 4-Pin GPU to 3 x 4-Pin PWM Fan Adapter for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.moddiy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I could do the job. With this cable I intended to connect the Mini 4-Pin GPU end to the socket of my graphics card (which has a 4pin pwm plug) and the other three of the four ends with:
> a) 2X120mm fans [0.12A * 2 fans = 0.24A] and b) 1x140mm [0.5A] fan. That is, total according to bequiet 0.74A.
> I hope it can give this current.
> 
> If anyone knows of a ready-made cable that has a Mini 4-Pin pwm GPU plug on one end and 3-4 pwm 4pin fans on the other end and all this is powered by either molex or sata plug, please write it down.
> 
> Thanks.


Not upsetting me .. but am a little frustrated by your not answering questions when asked. You say "I intended to connect the Mini 4-Pin GPU end to the socket of my graphics card (which has a 4pin pwm plug)". I asked you if that was an unused mini-fan header on your GPU, but you did not answer that question. Reason I asked is because if GPU does not have unused fan header, where will you plug in the GPU's fans?

Amp ratings you posted are most likely running amp load ratings. That is what fan specs publish. Problem is startup load is 3-5 times running load for less than a second as fans spin up to speed (or if something stops impeller). This is why every time you read about someone burning out a motherboard fan header it happened when they start the system .. or system was working fine when they turned if off, but when they started it up the fans are now not working.

You are not likely to find a pre-made GPU mini-PWM plug to GPU mini-PWM and norm PWM sockets. All I've seen are from GPU to normal PWM fan. I have never seen one with mini-GPU fan plug to both mini-GPU fan socket (for existing GPU fans) and normal PWM sockets (for case fans).

Until you answer the questions I've asked, I can't help you.
How are you plugging GPU fans into GPU if you use their fan header for adapter to run case fans?

You can get simple 2-way mini-4-pin fan plug to 2x normal 4-pin fan sockets.
You need mini-4-pin fan splitter with mini-4-pin plug into 2x mini-4-pin sockets. This is what you need to plug-in and use GPU PWM to control case fans. I have never seen one.

Akasa and Gelid both make standard PWM splitter cables with PSU power (from SATA or Molex) as linked below again:








PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved


Buy PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)




www.moddiy.com













Amazon.com: Gelid Solutions 1-to-4 4-Pin Splitter PWM Computer Case Fan Power Connector Sleeved Adapter Cable CA-PWM-03 : Electronics


Buy Gelid Solutions 1-to-4 4-Pin Splitter PWM Computer Case Fan Power Connector Sleeved Adapter Cable CA-PWM-03: Splitters - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com









__





FLEXA FP3S | 3 PWM fan splitter | Akasa Thermal Solution


Akasa branded products including cables, cases, card readers, coolers, external enclosures, fans in many colours, hubs, and power supplies |FLEXA FP3S | 3 PWM fan splitter |




www.akasa.com.tw





mini PWM to 2x PWM splitter:




__





11.03.1010-100 | Roline Molex 4 Pin Connector to Molex 4 Pin Connector Wire to Board Cable, 300mm | RS







nl.rs-online.com





mini PWM to 1x PWM:








4-Pin PWM to Video Graphics Card Fan Adapter Cable | eBay


This adapter cable will allow you to plug a standard 4-pin PWM fan cable into a mini 4-pin header found on many video cards and other components.



www.ebay.com





Basically what you are trying to do is something few people do, and those that do it make their own cable adapters / splitters.


----------



## Melcar

learner-gr said:


> doyll thanks for the post but none of them have the mini 4-pin gpu plug so i can't control the rpm of the fans via the gpu card.
> With the above links all the fans will work on maximum rpm.


You would need both. The mini PWN cable and the powered PWM splitter. It can get messy cable wise. Check the amp rating of your GPU fans. Chances are each one is less than 0.45A. If the case fans you plan on using are less than 1A together I doubt you will have issues. To be on the safe side I would use the powered splitter.

For the PWM splitter I'm using an Akasa one like this:
Akasa FLEXA FP5S PWM Fan Splitter Cable - 45cm

Mine is an older model with a molex plug

And for the mini PWM adapter this one:
https://www.amazon.com/-/es/CRJ-PWM...0ea97&pd_rd_wg=BskZG&pd_rd_i=B07Q5BTTDX&psc=1

You can get other brands since most are simply rebranded items. Just don't get this one (or others like it):
Amazon.com: Phobya PWM Fan Adapter for Graphics Cards : Electronics

The adapter is too stiff and the crimping is of bad quality.


----------



## learner-gr

doyll sorry if i didn't answer you the question. I didn'r understand what you wanted. Sorry about my english - american.
My gpu card has one mini 4pin pwm gpu slot. In this slot are connected the 2 gpu fans. I was going to remove those fans and then put the 2x SW3 pwm 120mm i have for better and quieter cooling. With this mod i was thinking to put the cable i wrote to also connect one bottom front case sw3 140mm pwm high speed fan.
With this in mind when the gpu fans increase their rpm thats it also do the 140mm front bottom case fan.
hope you can understand me.

melcar as far i can i see i must buy this cable :








Amazon.com: CRJ 4-Pin PWM GPU Fan Adapter Cable All Black Sleeved for Graphics Cards : Electronics


Buy CRJ 4-Pin PWM GPU Fan Adapter Cable All Black Sleeved for Graphics Cards: Case Fans - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





to connect it to the mini 4pin gpu plug and on this cable i will have to connect this cable :








PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved


Buy PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)




www.moddiy.com





After this step i will connect 2 of the 4x 4pin pwm cables with the 2 120mm i have and the other 1 of 4 pwm pin cables with the 140mm and at the end i will also have one free 4pin pwm plug free for a future 4pin pwn fan.

Is it ok?


----------



## Melcar

learner-gr said:


> doyll sorry if i didn't answer you the question. I didn'r understand what you wanted. Sorry about my english - american.
> My gpu card has one mini 4pin pwm gpu slot. In this slot are connected the 2 gpu fans. I was going to remove those fans and then put the 2x SW3 pwm 120mm i have for better and quieter cooling. With this mod i was thinking to put the cable i wrote to also connect one bottom front case sw3 140mm pwm high speed fan.
> With this in mind when the gpu fans increase their rpm thats it also do the 140mm front bottom case fan.
> hope you can understand me.
> 
> melcar as far i can i see i must buy this cable :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: CRJ 4-Pin PWM GPU Fan Adapter Cable All Black Sleeved for Graphics Cards : Electronics
> 
> 
> Buy CRJ 4-Pin PWM GPU Fan Adapter Cable All Black Sleeved for Graphics Cards: Case Fans - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to connect it to the mini 4pin gpu plug and on this cable i will have to connect this cable :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved
> 
> 
> Buy PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.moddiy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After this step i will connect 2 of the 4x 4pin pwm cables with the 2 120mm i have and the other 1 of 4 pwm pin cables with the 140mm and at the end i will also have one free 4pin pwm plug free for a future 4pin pwn fan.
> 
> Is it ok?


Yeah. Connect the mini PWM adapter to your graphics card's mini PWM fan port. The PWM splitter connects to the other end of the mini PWM adapter. Your fans will all connect using the connectors on the splitter. The fans will now be controlled using your video card's PWM fan signal, but will be powered with the SATA plug from your PSU. 

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> doyll sorry if i didn't answer you the question. I didn'r understand what you wanted. Sorry about my english - american.
> My gpu card has one mini 4pin pwm gpu slot. In this slot are connected the 2 gpu fans. I was going to remove those fans and then put the 2x SW3 pwm 120mm i have for better and quieter cooling. With this mod i was thinking to put the cable i wrote to also connect one bottom front case sw3 140mm pwm high speed fan.
> With this in mind when the gpu fans increase their rpm thats it also do the 140mm front bottom case fan.
> hope you can understand me.
> 
> melcar as far i can i see i must buy this cable :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: CRJ 4-Pin PWM GPU Fan Adapter Cable All Black Sleeved for Graphics Cards : Electronics
> 
> 
> Buy CRJ 4-Pin PWM GPU Fan Adapter Cable All Black Sleeved for Graphics Cards: Case Fans - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to connect it to the mini 4pin gpu plug and on this cable i will have to connect this cable :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved
> 
> 
> Buy PWN 1 To 4 Fan Splitter Cable Sleeved for $14.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.moddiy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After this step i will connect 2 of the 4x 4pin pwm cables with the 2 120mm i have and the other 1 of 4 pwm pin cables with the 140mm and at the end i will also have one free 4pin pwm plug free for a future 4pin pwn fan.
> 
> Is it ok?


Thanks for answering my questions. 
Your English is fine. 
Just curiou8s, where on our big blue marble are you? 
Are you going to remove GPU's stock shroud and fans, then attaching SW3 120 to GPU cooler fin pack?

What Melcar said. This combination of adapter and powered splitter will run all fans on splitter on same PWM signal. 2x 120mm will run one rpm curve and 2x 140mm case fans another rpm curve. I'm pretty sure both curves will work together nicely. 

Are all Silent Wings 3 fans high speed models? 

Like I said, I'm pretty sure all will speed cycle just fine. If you find one set is running too much faster than other set, Noctua sells LNA adapters (Low Noise Adapter) part number NA-SRC7. 

The LNA reduces the voltage to the fan from 12V to around 9V. This lowers fan speed at same PWM signal by about 25-33%, so a 1500rpm fan with LNA will run about 1000rpm, 1300rpm will run about 1075rpm. 

They used to include LNA and a lower voltage ULNA (Ultra Low Noise Adapter) (about 7v), but don't find ULNA listed anymore. 

Link below to NLA:








NA-SRC7


The NA-SRC7 is a fan accessory set consisting of three fully sleeved NA-RC7 Low Noise Adaptors (LNA) for Noctua 4-pin PWM fans. Connected between the fan and the power source, the adaptors reduce the running speed and noise emission of the fans. The NA-SRC7 is ideal for slowing down Noctua’s...




noctua.at


----------



## learner-gr

Thanks both of you.
I'm going to remove the gpu's shroud and fans and then i will atach the sw3 fans.
No its not the sw3 high speed but because i have 2 spare sw3 pwm 120mm fans i would like to try them on the gpu.
I will not connect both front case 140mm fans on the gpu (enthoo pro m). I will connect only the bottom front 140mm case fan (high speed sw3).
The simple sw3 120mm i have run 1450 rpm on max and the 140mm sw3 pwm high speed run 1600 rpm on max. So it will be almost about the same speed. Hope to not be a problem.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Thanks both of you.
> I'm going to remove the gpu's shroud and fans and then i will atach the sw3 fans.
> No its not the sw3 high speed but because i have 2 spare sw3 pwm 120mm fans i would like to try them on the gpu.
> I will not connect both front case 140mm fans on the gpu (enthoo pro m). I will connect only the bottom front 140mm case fan (high speed sw3).
> The simple sw3 120mm i have run 1450 rpm on max and the 140mm sw3 pwm high speed run 1600 rpm on max. So it will be almost about the same speed. Hope to not be a problem.


That should work fine. The extra speed of case fan will help with extra case airflow. 
I would definitely remove all unused PCIe back slot covers. 
This will help flow the air case fans push into case past GPU and out back of case.
This better exhaust flow helps move GPU heated exhaust air back and out so GPU can get cooler air, so fans run slower and quieter. 

If 140mm case fan runs too fast and makes too much noise, I would use one of the Noctua NLA adapters. Many Noctua fan owners have extras because most do not use them. Might ask in wanted forum if someone has one to sell. 

Please keep posting so we know how this all works out. Knowing how different setups work for different people helps us all know how to do a better job of cooling.


----------



## learner-gr

Already back pcie slot covers removed after i read your valuable post 
For now i have 2 X arctic p14s for front case fans and found sw3 140mm high speed for 10euro the one fan (second hand - used). I took them to test them if their more silent than the arctic's.
When i return to home i will test them and write here for sure.


----------



## learner-gr

Here's two splitters (from my country e-shops). One with sata and the other with molex plug :
AKASA AK-CBFA06-30 FLEXA FP3S PWM DISTRIBUTION CABLE (3 FANS) SLEEVED 30CM sata plug
AKASA AK-CBFA03-45 FLEXA FP5 SILENT SMART PWM CABLE FOR 5 PWM CASE FANS AND COOLERS molex plug.

I would like to use the sata plug but as far i can see the molex splitter has more beautiful sleeved edges.

and also one here again with molex but beautiful sleeved edges :








EK WATER BLOCKS EK-CABLE SPLITTER 4-FAN PWM EXTENDED


Ο διανομέας καλωδίων EK 4-Fan PWM Extended είναι ένα splitter 1 έως 4 PWM που επιτρέπει SKU:PER.818054



www.e-shop.gr






For the gpu mini plug found this :








EK WATER BLOCKS EK-CABLE PWM FAN ADAPTER FOR GPU 50CM


To EK-Cable PWM GPU (50cm) είναι ένα καλώδιο προσαρμογής για τη σύνδεση της GPU με ανεμισ SKU:PER.818259



www.e-shop.gr






How do they look?


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Here's two splitters (from my country e-shops). One with sata and the other with molex plug :
> AKASA AK-CBFA06-30 FLEXA FP3S PWM DISTRIBUTION CABLE (3 FANS) SLEEVED 30CM sata plug
> AKASA AK-CBFA03-45 FLEXA FP5 SILENT SMART PWM CABLE FOR 5 PWM CASE FANS AND COOLERS molex plug.
> 
> I would like to use the sata plug but as far i can see the molex splitter has more beautiful sleeved edges.
> 
> and also one here again with molex but beautiful sleeved edges :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EK WATER BLOCKS EK-CABLE SPLITTER 4-FAN PWM EXTENDED
> 
> 
> Ο διανομέας καλωδίων EK 4-Fan PWM Extended είναι ένα splitter 1 έως 4 PWM που επιτρέπει SKU:PER.818054
> 
> 
> 
> www.e-shop.gr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the gpu mini plug found this :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EK WATER BLOCKS EK-CABLE PWM FAN ADAPTER FOR GPU 50CM
> 
> 
> To EK-Cable PWM GPU (50cm) είναι ένα καλώδιο προσαρμογής για τη σύνδεση της GPU με ανεμισ SKU:PER.818259
> 
> 
> 
> www.e-shop.gr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do they look?


The molex Akasa powered splitter has all wires terminating into very short wire into molex. This makes all flexing in that very short piece into molex which causes wire to stress harden and break off. For this reason I would use the Akasa SATA instead of Akasa molex. 

You can find Gelid PWM 1-to-4 Splitter on Amazon DE. I've used both Akasa and Gelid and Gelid is better made.








Gelid Solutions PWM 1-to-4 Splitter-PWM-Splitter kabel-4x Ausgang–Kabellänge: 420mm–Verbinder: 1x4 Pin PWM–Plug: 4x4 Pin PWM und 1x4 Pin Molex: Amazon.de: Computer & Zubehör


Gelid Solutions PWM 1-to-4 Splitter-PWM-Splitter kabel-4x Ausgang–Kabellänge: 420mm–Verbinder: 1x4 Pin PWM–Plug: 4x4 Pin PWM und 1x4 Pin Molex - Kostenloser Versand ab 29€. Jetzt bei Amazon.de bestellen!



www.amazon.de





Link to Gelid company:








PWM 1-TO-4 SPLITTER


Connects up to 4 PWM Fans. Molex 4pin header also embedded. 420mm length.




gelidsolutions.com





EK 4-Fan PWM Extended cable distributor you linked to looks good. 
So does EK-Cable PWM GPU (50cm) Cable looks good too.

I would get either Gelid or EK. 
Can probably hide extra cable length in compartment behind motherboard.


----------



## learner-gr

Hi there.
Is anyone uses the DEMCiflex filters and how you rank them?
Are they good? or we must stay with the filters it coming our cases? (enthoo pro m here)


----------



## TeslaHUN

learner-gr said:


> Hi there.
> Is anyone uses the DEMCiflex filters and how you rank them?
> Are they good? or we must stay with the filters it coming our cases? (enthoo pro m here)


Im using them , demciflex is by far the best filter and trust me i tried all , even DIY filters .


----------



## DiceAir

@doyll What do you think of the new phanteks T30 fans?


----------



## Shawnb99

learner-gr said:


> Hi there.
> Is anyone uses the DEMCiflex filters and how you rank them?
> Are they good? or we must stay with the filters it coming our cases? (enthoo pro m here)


They are by far the best but expensive. I have them on every intake fan. Very restrictive so be aware.


----------



## TeslaHUN

TeslaHUN said:


> Im using them , demciflex is by far the best filter and trust me i tried all , even DIY filters .


By the way ,i started a fan filter test . 3 factory and 3 DIY filter . I will check them after 1 month . Fixed rpm , same fans ( Arctic P12s) .









Air speed measured by anemometer when filters clean, and i will measure after 1 month . Also checking how much dust the filters collect on pull side , and on push side i installed a "fly mesh " to see how much dust the filters let through. I had to cut some frame for the DIY filter materials, since they touched the fanblades.
-Nylon stocking
-Speaker cloth
-Phobya Dustcover pro
-Silverstone SST -FF123W
-Akasa aluminium filter (GRM120-AL01-BK)
-Silverstone SST-FF121


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> @doyll What do you think of the new phanteks T30 fans?


As I haven't used / tested them I can only go on what others say and how other Phanteks fans that I have tested and used perform these should be quite good.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> As I haven't used / tested them I can only go on what others say and how other Phanteks fans that I have tested and used perform these should be quite good.


According to this reviewer looks good

Phanteks T30-120 Fan Review: Beating the Noctua NF-A12x25 at its Own Game! - YouTube


----------



## ciarlatano

DiceAir said:


> According to this reviewer looks good
> 
> Phanteks T30-120 Fan Review: Beating the Noctua NF-A12x25 at its Own Game! - YouTube


VSG reviewed them as well - Phanteks T30-120 Fan Review - One Fan to Rule Them All?


----------



## doyll

Was just going to post VSG link myself.

Indeed, Phanteks T30-120 fan (PH-F120T30_BG) is looking like the best fan out there. 

For me, VSG's test results at 750, 1000, 1250 & 1500rpm are most important. This is because speed range I normally use is 750-1250rpm only reaching 1500rpm under extreme conditions (super hot weather at extreme load). In this speed range Phanteks T30-120 fan out-performs every fan tested. Better than NF-A12x25 and Silent Wings 3, the best available before Phantkes T30-120 was released. 

It took a long time in development, but results prove it was worth the time invested.


----------



## HalongPort

Anyone knows, whether the 140mm and 180mm fans used in the new Fractal Torrent are of any use?
The case is looking very interesting, but if the fans are a no-go (like in previous Fractal cases) it's a little bit too expensive.


----------



## doyll

TechPowerUp
Fractal Design Torrent Black RGB TG Light Tint Review reviewed and liked it.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> Was just going to post VSG link myself.
> 
> Indeed, Phanteks T30-120 fan (PH-F120T30_BG) is looking like the best fan out there.
> 
> For me, VSG's test results at 750, 1000, 1250 & 1500rpm are most important. This is because speed range I normally use is 750-1250rpm only reaching 1500rpm under extreme conditions (super hot weather at extreme load). In this speed range Phanteks T30-120 fan out-performs every fan tested. Better than NF-A12x25 and Silent Wings 3, the best available before Phantkes T30-120 was released.
> 
> It took a long time in development, but results prove it was worth the time invested.



So you would go with the performance mode that caps at 2000RPM


----------



## Shenhua

DiceAir said:


> So you would go with the performance mode that caps at 2000RPM


Speaking about a build and all fans it comprises, 1500rpm it's usually a hard cap for diminishing returns with air cooling, and soft cap for liquid cooling so to speak.... I'm generalising a bit,..... but that's the idea....


Look at it this way!,.... if you need more than 1500rpm, you're doing it wrong.


Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Shawnb99

doyll said:


> Was just going to post VSG link myself.
> 
> Indeed, Phanteks T30-120 fan (PH-F120T30_BG) is looking like the best fan out there.
> 
> For me, VSG's test results at 750, 1000, 1250 & 1500rpm are most important. This is because speed range I normally use is 750-1250rpm only reaching 1500rpm under extreme conditions (super hot weather at extreme load). In this speed range Phanteks T30-120 fan out-performs every fan tested. Better than NF-A12x25 and Silent Wings 3, the best available before Phantkes T30-120 was released.
> 
> It took a long time in development, but results prove it was worth the time invested.


At 750rpm the Phantech is 1cfm better then the Noctua and 0.7db louder.
At 1000rpm it’s 1.8cfm faster and 1.5db louder
At 1250rpm it’s 2cfm faster and 1.3db louder.

Best by a very slim margin. 
I wonder if you would even notice 1-2cf, cause I’m sure you would notice the extra db


----------



## doyll

DiceAir said:


> So you would go with the performance mode that caps at 2000RPM


Most likely correct. Kinda depends on fan control and resulting curve. If curve can be setup with fans in advanced mode I might leave them set that way, but most likely they will be set on performance mode with 2000rpm max rpm. Will experiment a little to find out what works best. 

Like Shenhua said, above 1500rpm things usually don't change much. That said, my overclocked i7 920 under PH-TC14PE using TY-143 (2500rpm) cooler and case fans did perform significantly better at 2500rpm than at 1200rpm. 
Normal use OC was 3.9GHz and fans never went above 1500rpm. 
With OC @ 4.3Ghz at 100% load for about 3 minutes w/ fan idling temps would reach 85c, they put them to full speed (2500rpm) and temps would come back to about 70c in less than 2 minutes. 

Testing TRUE Spirit 140 Power and NH-D14 with TY-143 fans we found the difference between 1200rpm and 2500rpm to be significant.









But the noise difference kills the cooling advantage.


----------



## doyll

Shawnb99 said:


> At 750rpm the Phantech is 1cfm better then the Noctua and 0.7db louder.
> At 1000rpm it’s 1.8cfm faster and 1.5db louder
> At 1250rpm it’s 2cfm faster and 1.3db louder.
> 
> Best by a very slim margin.
> I wonder if you would even notice 1-2cf, cause I’m sure you would notice the extra db


Indeed, difference seems to be marginal. Maybe one has a nicer sound profile. As soon as I get mine I will try start testing. Wish I had some NF-A12x25 so I could do some test comparisons.


----------



## ciarlatano

Shawnb99 said:


> At 750rpm the Phantech is 1cfm better then the Noctua and 0.7db louder.
> At 1000rpm it’s 1.8cfm faster and 1.5db louder
> At 1250rpm it’s 2cfm faster and 1.3db louder.
> 
> Best by a very slim margin.
> I wonder if you would even notice 1-2cf, cause I’m sure you would notice the extra db


Agreed. I feel more like we have something on par with NF-A12X25 more than something substantially better. Give and take, pros and cons for both, but neither seeming to have a decisive flaw. And I'm ok with that. I'd rather see two great fans on the market than one.


----------



## Shawnb99

igorslab does a better review.









Phanteks T30 Case Fan Review - Speed Monster on silent Soles | Page 4 | igor'sLAB


Disclaimer: The following article is machine translated from the original German, and has not been edited or checked for errors. Thank you for understanding!




www.igorslab.de






They have the Noctua's beating the Phantek in CFM under 1000rpm. They get blown away at max speed but that's 3k vs 2k

Also save 0.6 volts on startup with the Noctua.


----------



## doyll

Shawnb99 said:


> igorslab does a better review.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phanteks T30 Case Fan Review - Speed Monster on silent Soles | Page 4 | igor'sLAB
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: The following article is machine translated from the original German, and has not been edited or checked for errors. Thank you for understanding!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.igorslab.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have the Noctua's beating the Phantek in CFM under 1000rpm. They get blown away at max speed but that's 3k vs 2k
> 
> Also save 0.6 volts on startup with the Noctua.


//VSG jT30 and NF-A12x25 graphs are hard to compare. PWM signal and RPM scale is same on multiple graphs, but DB(A) & CFM scale changes.


----------



## doyll

Got 3-pk of T30 fans and am playing with them.
Really impressed with their packaging. 
Very well designed and convenient to use. 
Come with 3 sets of screws;
4x self tapping for case mounting​4x machine thread for radiator mounting​4x machine thread for w/ HALO on radiator​Power cable has PWM socket 1.8cm from housing with plug 13cm from socket. Great for daisy-chaining fans together on radiator or case vents. 

Hurt my back Friday so need another day or so before I start fitting fans in case and do some comparison testing.
​


----------



## doyll

T30 Phanteks fans use comparisons. Bit more info:
I put them into front of Evolv mATX with all openings in mounting panel not covered by them taped off so air they push into motherboard compartment has to flow back and out, not leak around into front to go in circles. T30 fans are on performance mode. System has MSI B450M Mortar Max motherboard, so am trying to use Command Center to setup fan curve to idle at 600-650rpm at 40-45c CPU temp and ramping up to 980-1020rpm at 60-65c CPU temp. Sadly MSI fan control software isn't much good. 

All I've done so far is switch Phanteks' 2x cases fans that are basically variable voltage PH-F140MP fans to T-30 fans on similar temp to rpm curves in normal daily use. Resulting temps and noise results are slightly in favor of T30 over PH-F140MP. I haven't pushed system hard enough to get them 1100rpm. At same load 2x 14Os were at same speed.

I'm really liking these T30 fans! Their sound profile is nice and quiet, and when they do run fast enough to be heard have a very pleasant sound to my ears. 

I'm having problems with some of my fan test equipment so please be patient. Once I get test setup working properly I'll post up more data.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> T30 Phanteks fans use comparisons. Bit more info:
> I put them into front of Evolv mATX with all openings in mounting panel not covered by them taped off so air they push into motherboard compartment has to flow back and out, not leak around into front to go in circles. T30 fans are on performance mode. System has MSI B450M Mortar Max motherboard, so am trying to use Command Center to setup fan curve to idle at 600-650rpm at 40-45c CPU temp and ramping up to 980-1020rpm at 60-65c CPU temp. Sadly MSI fan control software isn't much good.
> 
> All I've done so far is switch Phanteks' 2x cases fans that are basically variable voltage PH-F140MP fans to T-30 fans on similar temp to rpm curves in normal daily use. Resulting temps and noise results are slightly in favor of T30 over PH-F140MP. I haven't pushed system hard enough to get them 1100rpm. At same load 2x 14Os were at same speed.
> 
> I'm really liking these T30 fans! Their sound profile is nice and quiet, and when they do run fast enough to be heard have a very pleasant sound to my ears.
> 
> I'm having problems with some of my fan test equipment so please be patient. Once I get test setup working properly I'll post up more data.


use this software to control fans.

Releases · Rem0o/FanControl.Releases · GitHub

Fan Control: A more mature software - YouTube


----------



## GeneO

DiceAir said:


> use this software to control fans.
> 
> Releases · Rem0o/FanControl.Releases · GitHub
> 
> Fan Control: A more mature software - YouTube


I don't think that is what he meant.


----------



## ciarlatano

DiceAir said:


> use this software to control fans.
> 
> Releases · Rem0o/FanControl.Releases · GitHub
> 
> Fan Control: A more mature software - YouTube





GeneO said:


> I don't think that is what he meant.


Yeah, @doyll is using Aquacomputer controllers. I think he has that end pretty well covered. 😉


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> Yeah, @doyll is using Aquacomputer controllers. I think he has that end pretty well covered. 😉


Indeed, but don't have one setup in Evolv mATX, and kinda wanted to do T30 vs PH-F140MP-ish case fans as sealed front intakes. T30s' are better, but this system (MSI B450M Mortar Max w/ 3600 under ARO-M14O &32GB RAM) doesn't get hot enough to use T30s' (or stock case fans) and ARO-M14O to anywhere near fans' top speeds. So all I'm seeing / hearing is silence to pleasant hum out of system doing what I normally do. 

I haven't done any extreme CPU load testing in years, so not sure what is best these days. Any suggestions?


----------



## GeneO

Prime95 112/112 FFT, AVX disabled or AVX enabled +AVX2 disabled. Prime95 small FFT with AVX disabled. Realbench, Cinebench 23.


----------



## doyll

Here is what I've got so far. Not much but lower cooler intake air temp. Not a big difference in this application, but on a radiator I suspect difference to be more evident. 3x T30 definitely move more air than stock MP impeller case fans at same noise levels to my ears. My meter died, but from previous experience my ears notice a 3dB change in volume, but not 2dB. I'll have a new meter soon and add dB data.









Thanks GeneO. Was thinking along those lines. Prime 95 is definitely a torture test.


----------



## doyll

dbl post


----------



## Jonhp

Deleted


----------



## doyll

Jonhp said:


> And here is my case( core x9) cooling airflow.... U can count many fans there 😉 a bit dusty the ifx-14 stands there... aslo modded aio gpu cooling


Your other posts of this IFX-14 system are in "TRUE Spirit 140 Power thread. Curious why did you post your rig here instead of with other posts .. or starting your own thead about IFX-14?


----------



## learner-gr

Inside some motherboard card boxes asus has one thermal sensor cable. 
Can we use it to check temperature inside the pc case?
Its like this :


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Inside some motherboard card boxes asus has one thermal sensor cable.
> Can we use it to check temperature inside the pc case?
> Its like this :


Yes! 
Asus sensors can be used to monitor air temp inside of case. Ideal location is about 5cm in front of and in middle of airflow to cooler front fan.


----------



## learner-gr

You mean in this manner?


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> You mean in this manner?


Yes, censor centered about 3-5cm in front of cooler fan. Temperature there will be about 2-3c warmer than room (or air in front of case intake vents). 

I then try to setup case and cooler fans' speeds to stay inaudible from idle (30-40c) up to about 60c CPU temp, then start speed up as temp goes up to about 75c with fan speeds hopefully not too loud. For me that is 35-38dBA. 

CPU load determines CPU temp which determines fan speed and resulting noise level. In most of my builds under heavy workload have fans running at about 1000-1200rpm / 38-40dBA.


----------



## learner-gr

Ok.
Thanks for your help!


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Ok.
> Thanks for your help!


Glad I was able to help.
Thanks for the thanks. 
Most peeps don't both.


----------



## D-EJ915

Did anyone ever get a Thermalright TL-B12 fan? (the GT lookalike) It looks like there is a new 3150 RPM version: TL-B12 EXTREM – Thermalright

About 30-33 dollars on aliexpress for one, same price as normal B12. I wonder how PWM range compares.

Looks like there is a new Silver Soul 135 dual tower cooler too, looks interesting. Silver Soul 135 – Thermalright

I still dislike this new backplate they have though, socket 1700 is going to require a whole new one and the old one would be fine since it worked with 1366 too.


----------



## ciarlatano

D-EJ915 said:


> Did anyone ever get a Thermalright TL-B12 fan? (the GT lookalike) It looks like there is a new 3150 RPM version: TL-B12 EXTREM – Thermalright
> 
> About 30-33 dollars on aliexpress for one, same price as normal B12. I wonder how PWM range compares.


I've been curious about them, myself. Did @Owterspace wind up getting some?


----------



## Owterspace

ciarlatano said:


> I've been curious about them, myself. Did @Owterspace wind up getting some?


Negatory, I bought a big-n-little set of iPPC 3K. But I am using my TY-143, TL-D14X and the little guy as case fans up front.. works pretty good like that.

This is my setup here:









[Official] Fractal Design Case Club


Redid and cleaned my build in my Define 7 XL case. I'm not big on RGB so I tried playing around with what options I had, but looks a lot better when the dark tempered glass is on. If I were going to build in Define 7 XL, that is how I would want mine to look, very clean, and 2 x 420 rads would...




www.overclock.net


----------



## learner-gr

One fast question:
I have the Thermalright ARO-M14G cpu tower cooler. If i changed it with Noctua D15 chrommax am i gonna see any major temperature differences? 
My cpu now is the ryzen 3700x and hoping to get 3950x, 5900x or 5950x one day.
Also the case is an enthoo pro m with 2 front x 140mm Silent Wings 3 High Speed with all unused pci slots blades removed.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> One fast question:
> I have the Thermalright ARO-M14G cpu tower cooler. If i changed it with Noctua D15 chrommax am i gonna see any major temperature differences?
> My cpu now is the ryzen 3700x and hoping to get 3950x, 5900x or 5950x one day.
> Also the case is an enthoo pro m with 2 front x 140mm Silent Wings 3 High Speed with all unused pci slots blades removed.


I'm running same cooler in my Enthoo mATX on 3600 and like it. I don't know how much NH-D15 would be, probably not a big difference. 
Sounds like your case is setup for good airflow. What kind of temps are you running now?


----------



## TeslaHUN

learner-gr said:


> One fast question:
> I have the Thermalright ARO-M14G cpu tower cooler. If i changed it with Noctua D15 chrommax am i gonna see any major temperature differences?
> My cpu now is the ryzen 3700x and hoping to get 3950x, 5900x or 5950x one day.
> Also the case is an enthoo pro m with 2 front x 140mm Silent Wings 3 High Speed with all unused pci slots blades removed.


When i had my older system (i7 5820k @ 4,6ghz / around 180W power )
First i had Macho rev A(BW) ,same as ur cooler . Then i changed to Noctua D15 . Macho is weaker , with D15 temps went down by 10C.
.







vs


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> When i had my older system (i7 5820k @ 4,6ghz / around 180W power )
> First i had Macho rev A(BW) ,same as ur cooler . Then i changed to Noctua D15 . Macho is weaker , with D15 temps went down by 10C.
> .
> View attachment 2524359
> 
> vs
> View attachment 2524360


There must have been something else going on for you get 10c difference in cooling changing from Macho Rev A and NH-D15. Typically there is only 2-3c difference, sometimes not even that. Maybe Macho had a bad seat?


----------



## HowYesNo

doyll said:


> Indeed, but don't have one setup in Evolv mATX, and kinda wanted to do T30 vs PH-F140MP-ish case fans as *sealed front intakes*. T30s' are better, but this system (MSI B450M Mortar Max w/ 3600 under ARO-M14O &32GB RAM) doesn't get hot enough to use T30s' (or stock case fans) and ARO-M14O to anywhere near fans' top speeds. So all I'm seeing / hearing is silence to pleasant hum out of system doing what I normally do.
> 
> I haven't done any extreme CPU load testing in years, so not sure what is best these days. Any suggestions?


does sealing front fan intakes improve airflow?


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> There must have been something else going on for you get 10c difference in cooling changing from Macho Rev A and NH-D15. Typically there is only 2-3c difference, sometimes not even that. Maybe Macho had a bad seat?


Nah ,it was mounted perfectly . And thermal paste was the same (i use mx4 all time)
Thats normal improvement . D15 is double the price . And much bigger (Macho : 870g / D15 : 1320g ) . Macho was hot to touch ,and D15 was only warm . Not scientific but thats how i experienced. 
There is only one advantage on Macho : TY147A is better then NF A15 at least to my ears .


----------



## doyll

HowYesNo said:


> does sealing front fan intakes improve airflow?


I'm sure you mean seal all openings not covered by intake fans. Obviously we don't want the fan opening sealed because that would stop all airflow from fan .. and we don't want that to happen. 

Sealing / taping off all opening except intake fans closes gives us complete separation between intake and exhaust sides of fans. 
Doing this stops air fans push into case from leaking around in front of fans to end up going in circles instead of through case. 
This means all the air fans are pushing into case to move on though case and out which pushes heated air coming off of GPU and CPU on back and out. 
This means air coming from intake fans has less heated air mixing in so it remains closer to room temp.
Lower temp air entering coolers means CPU & GPU run cooler, 
Means fans run at lower speed,
So we end up with a cooler and quieter system.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Nah ,it was mounted perfectly . And thermal paste was the same (i use mx4 all time)
> Thats normal improvement . D15 is double the price . And much bigger (Macho : 870g / D15 : 1320g ) . Macho was hot to touch ,and D15 was only warm . Not scientific but thats how i experienced.
> There is only one advantage on Macho : TY147A is better then NF A15 at least to my ears .


Sorry, but there simply is not 10c difference between NH-15 and Macho Rev A BW in normal use systems. How much are you OC'ing yours? Because to get that much difference CPU would have to be extremely high overclock and using extreme amount of power .. like 350+ watts. 

I assume it's was same setup as your pics? They look like you have good case airflow, so both Macho and D15 would be getting similar temp air. 

Only other possibility I can think of is your Macho base wasn't mating like it should to IHS. That would case CPU to run hotter than it should and give us the 10c difference you got. Can't think of any other reason for such an extreme difference. 

Cooler price does not mean it's a better cooler. One of the very best out there is TRUE Spirit 140 Power which sells for about $50 .. and it's easily as good as D15 and other top tier cooler costing much more money.

Obviously I'm not saying you didn't experience this 10c difference. Just saying it wasn't just the difference in these 2 coolers cooling ability,


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> Sorry, but there simply is not 10c difference between NH-15 and Macho Rev A BW in normal use systems. How much are you OC'ing yours? Because to get that much difference CPU would have to be extremely high overclock and using extreme amount of power .. like 350+ watts.
> 
> I assume it's was same setup as your pics? They look like you have good case airflow, so both Macho and D15 would be getting similar temp air.
> 
> Only other possibility I can think of is your Macho base wasn't mating like it should to IHS. That would case CPU to run hotter than it should and give us the 10c difference you got. Can't think of any other reason for such an extreme difference.
> 
> Cooler price does not mean it's a better cooler. One of the very best out there is TRUE Spirit 140 Power which sells for about $50 .. and it's easily as good as D15 and other top tier cooler costing much more money.
> 
> Obviously I'm not saying you didn't experience this 10c difference. Just saying it wasn't just the difference in these 2 coolers cooling ability,


Yep that was my system on the photos. I ran 4,5ghz @1,26V OC. I just can *guess* power consumption , since there was no good software back in those days ,wich could read it out properly. 
The stock is 3,3ghz - 140W TDP . I assume on 4,5 it could draw 180-200W .
I found only this Aida stresstest screenshot :


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Yep that was my system on the photos. I ran 4,5ghz @1,26V OC. I just can *guess* power consumption , since there was no good software back in those days ,wich could read it out properly.
> The stock is 3,3ghz - 140W TDP . I assume on 4,5 it could draw 180-200W .
> I found only this Aida stresstest screenshot :
> View attachment 2524412


Good temps for than OC.


----------



## learner-gr

doyll said:


> I'm running same cooler in my Enthoo mATX on 3600 and like it. I don't know how much NH-D15 would be, probably not a big difference.
> Sounds like your case is setup for good airflow. What kind of temps are you running now?


At about 26C with 40% humidity i have CPU idling about 36-37C. Cpu as i already wrote is 3700x, no OC just what the motherboard does by itself (Asus Rog CH8). 
With blender 2.91.2 i have 63C max, thermalright cooler at 1112 rpm max. 
The CPU CCD1 Tdie is 76,3C max and idling at 35C.


----------



## D-EJ915

I also found that Antec has a "P12 clone" fan so I got one of those as well https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08JQC1W3J/


----------



## bebius

Hi all,
I tried to find relevant information with the search function without success, so here is my question:
I'm waiting for a 240 aio to install as a top exhaust in my meshify C. I have two 140 fans as front intakes and an 120 one as a rear exhaust.
I'm wondering if I could I revert the rear fan to make it an intake. This way, the pressure would most probably remain positive and the left part of the radiator would be directly supplied with fresh air.
Probably the gpu backplate would also be cooled better.
I guess the drawback is that the front and rear intake streams are opposite so there may be some turbulance in the middle, right? Anyway, here is a flow diagram of the case:









The case's bottom part is packed with hdds and non-detachable psu cables so it's very hard to modify anything there.


----------



## TeslaHUN

bebius said:


> Hi all,
> I tried to find relevant information with the search function without success, so here is my question:
> I'm waiting for a 240 aio to install as a top exhaust in my meshify C. I have two 140 fans as front intakes and an 120 one as a rear exhaust.
> I'm wondering if I could I revert the rear fan to make it an intake. This way, the pressure would most probably remain positive and the left part of the radiator would be directly supplied with fresh air.
> Probably the gpu backplate would also be cooled better.
> I guess the drawback is that the front and rear intake streams are opposite so there may be some turbulance in the middle, right? Anyway, here is a flow diagram of the case:
> View attachment 2525057
> 
> 
> The case's bottom part is packed with hdds and non-detachable psu cables so it's very hard to modify anything there.


No . You want the rear fan to remove the 300w heat that ur vga is dumping in the case. If U force it to stay inside(rear intake ) the only place where the warm air can exit is through ur top CPU rad. You dont want to cool the rad with 45-50C air. Just slow down the rear 120mm .2x top 120mm with resrtriction from radiator could exhaust like 2x20cfm. Rear 120 slowed down to 600rpm exhaust 30 cfm . 2x140mm intake @1000-1200rpm could push like 2x40cfm through that mesh fabric. So 80in , 70out is still positive pressure.


----------



## Owterspace

Edit 

whoops


----------



## doyll

bebius said:


> Hi all,
> I tried to find relevant information with the search function without success, so here is my question:
> I'm waiting for a 240 aio to install as a top exhaust in my meshify C. I have two 140 fans as front intakes and an 120 one as a rear exhaust.
> I'm wondering if I could I revert the rear fan to make it an intake. This way, the pressure would most probably remain positive and the left part of the radiator would be directly supplied with fresh air.
> Probably the gpu backplate would also be cooled better.
> I guess the drawback is that the front and rear intake streams are opposite so there may be some turbulance in the middle, right? Anyway, here is a flow diagram of the case:
> View attachment 2525057
> 
> 
> The case's bottom part is packed with hdds and non-detachable psu cables so it's very hard to modify anything there.


In your case (no pun) rear (if using a rear fan) should be exhaust. Key to good airflow in your system will depend almost entirely on how good your front intake fans are. What model fans are your "two 140 fans as front intakes and an 120 one as a rear exhaust" fans? I ask because just saying "fans" only tells us you of some in vent that spins, but we don't know if they are good bad or mediocre. 

I don't (rarely) ever use exhaust fans. Airflow is basic physics; for air to flow into case there has to be same amount of air flowing out of case. I would remove all back PCIe slot covers (to increase rear vent area and thus give case better front to back airflow around GPU) with 2x 140mm or 3x120mm high pressure fans. Tape over all openings in fan mounting panel not covered by fans (so air they push into case cannot leak around in front of them and go in circles. We want all the air they push into case to flow on thru case around GPU to exit thru back or up on out thru radiator. 3x 120mm / 2x 140mm hi-pressure fans will supply your case with more than enough airflow. 

I think you will find 5th post in this thread of interest. It is a basic guide to how airflow works and how to optimize it. While it is basically for cooling with air CPU coolers the principles are the same.


----------



## bebius

Thank you both for the input.

Intakes are a P14 and a Pure Wings 2 140 High Speed. 
I have already read the basic airflow physics posts. I have covered the unused opening on the front (before doing it, I could feel a lot of air with my hand coming back out of the opening beneath the intake fan). I haven't removed the slot covers as I have a curious cat in the house, I'm gonna check if it's possible for the cat to reach the interior of the case from those openings.


----------



## doyll

Indeed, we've talked a few times about cooling. 

P14 have good pressure rating (2.40mmH2O @ 1700rpm) 
Pure Wing 2 140 high speed is decent as well (1.82mmH2O @ 1600rpm)
You should have decent case airflow. Think I've suggested it before, but just in case I missed something. I suggest monitoring temp of airflow entering GPU and radiator with remote sensor thermometer/s (as described in case airflow guide). There are many different kinds of these remote sensor thermometers ranging from cheap indoor / outdoor to basic terrarium / aquarium / fridge like in below links:
Digital Thermometer Temperature Monitor with Probe for Fridge Freezer Aquarium | eBay








Digital Probe Temperature Humidity Thermometer Indoor Outdoor ℃/℉ Hygrometer UK | eBay


36/45PCS Sandpaper 120-5000 Grit Mixed Wet Dry Sheets Assorted Wood Waterproof L. Indoor /outdoor temperature, indoor humidity display. Digital Diamond Gemstone Tester Selector Testing Set Electronic Tool Portable UK.



www.ebay.co.uk












Auto Car In-Outdoor Thermometer W/Sensor for A/C Digital LCD DisplayHZ6 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Auto Car In-Outdoor Thermometer W/Sensor for A/C Digital LCD DisplayHZ6 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



www.ebay.co.uk





Key is to setup case intake fans so they are pushing air in fast enough so air entering GPU and CPU is only a few degrees warmer than air entering case.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Im making an external box /frame for my 2 1080radiator ( 9x120mm surface each ) .
One side is open , with a dust filter . The radiator on the middle . The back side is also open , with fans pulling out air . Top and Bottom is sealed . So the air can only enter on the dustfiltered side / go through the radiator and exit on the back. BUT i dont want use 9fan /rad . I'd like to use 5 Arctic P12 /rad . My question is how deep box should i design ? Filter +1cm gap >Rad >> gap > exhaust fans . Obviously i want the 5 fan to pull through the whole surface of the 9x120mm radiator . So i need the fans to be a little further off . What is the optimal distance ? I was thinking 3-5cm is enough so they can cover the whole surface of the rad ?
And wich one is the better pattern to place the 5 fan ?


----------



## Shawnb99

TeslaHUN said:


> Im making an external box /frame for my 2 1080radiator ( 9x120mm surface each ) .
> One side is open , with a dust filter . The radiator on the middle . The back side is also open , with fans pulling out air . Top and Bottom is sealed . So the air can only enter on the dustfiltered side / go through the radiator and exit on the back. BUT i dont want use 9fan /rad . I'd like to use 5 Arctic P12 /rad . My question is how deep box should i design ? Filter +1cm gap >Rad >> gap > exhaust fans . Obviously i want the 5 fan to pull through the whole surface of the 9x120mm radiator . So i need the fans to be a little further off . What is the optimal distance ? I was thinking 3-5cm is enough so they can cover the whole surface of the rad ?
> And wich one is the better pattern to place the 5 fan ?
> View attachment 2527118


I’d just copy the Caselabs extended pedestal design then. Think it’s 15” wide. Gives you more then enough room to use 60mm thick radiators in push/pull


----------



## TeslaHUN

Shawnb99 said:


> I’d just copy the Caselabs extended pedestal design then. Think it’s 15” wide. Gives you more then enough room to use 60mm thick radiators in push/pull


Nope ,u did not understand my needs . Eng is not my main language ,probably its my fault , i can't explain it properly  I dont wany push pull , in fact I dont even want add fans directly on radiators at all.
I want to create something like this : https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/attachments/img_20210914_114034-jpg.669696/ . Huge rads on top of each other , but with less fan and more stable/permanent structure .Also protected from accidents + hide all the cables / external PSU /adding pump /res ---->put all inside a box/ frame ,that would look like a huge floor standing speaker .


----------



## geriatricpollywog

TeslaHUN said:


> Nope ,u did not understand my needs . Eng is not my main language ,probably its my fault , i can't explain it properly  I dont wany push pull , in fact I dont even want add fans directly on radiators at all.
> I want to create something like this : https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/attachments/img_20210914_114034-jpg.669696/ . Huge rads on top of each other , but with less fan and more stable/permanent structure .Also protected from accidents + hide all the cables / external PSU /adding pump /res ---->put all inside a box/ frame ,that would look like a huge floor standing speaker .


Will you be using fans or will you not be using fans?


----------



## TeslaHUN

0451 said:


> Will you be using fans or will you not be using fans?


Yes ,i wrote it in 1st post . I plan to use 5-5 Arctic P12 behind each radiator . Something like this


----------



## geriatricpollywog

TeslaHUN said:


> Yes ,i wrote it in 1st post . I plan to use 5-5 Arctic P12 behind each radiator .


Why not stack MO-RAs? I’ll be hiding all the wires under the fan shroud this weekend.


----------



## TeslaHUN

0451 said:


> Why not stack MO-RAs? I’ll be hiding all the wires under the fan shroud this weekend.


I already have the 2 external 1080 Rad  Mo-Ra is extremly overpriced compared to these ,especially with shroud . And i dont want 18 fans . (I already own 2x5pack P12 )


----------



## geriatricpollywog

TeslaHUN said:


> I already have the 2 external 1080 Rad  Mo-Ra is extremly overpriced compared to these ,especially with shroud . And i dont want 18 fans . (I already own 2x5pack P12 )


If you already own the 1080s, that makes sense. But MO-RA are a good value considering their quality. And if you are going for looks, it’s unparalleled by Phobya.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Im making an external box /frame for my 2 1080radiator ( 9x120mm surface each ) .
> One side is open , with a dust filter . The radiator on the middle . The back side is also open , with fans pulling out air . Top and Bottom is sealed . So the air can only enter on the dustfiltered side / go through the radiator and exit on the back. BUT i dont want use 9fan /rad . I'd like to use 5 Arctic P12 /rad . My question is how deep box should i design ? Filter +1cm gap >Rad >> gap > exhaust fans . Obviously i want the 5 fan to pull through the whole surface of the 9x120mm radiator . So i need the fans to be a little further off . What is the optimal distance ? I was thinking 3-5cm is enough so they can cover the whole surface of the rad ?
> And wich one is the better pattern to place the 5 fan ?
> View attachment 2527118


About the only thing in you post I understand is "I'd like to use 5 Arctic P12 / rad.. 

You have 2 radiators. Each radiator is 360x360mm designed to use 9x 120mm fans. You want to use 5x Arctic P12 fans pulling air out of each radiator. 

If that is what you want to do I would mount fans in an 'X' about 180mm from radiator. Radial fans should be spaced their diameter away from flat surface for optimum flow. Arctic P12 is is 120mm fan so it needs to be 120mm away from radiator. Obviously area from radiator to fans has to be sealed with only openings being for radiator and fans. I'm guessing each case will be about 360x400mm inside measurement (just big enough to fit radiator in). You don't need much space between front filter. 

Hope that helps. Feel free to ask if you need more info.


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> About the only thing in you post I understand is "I'd like to use 5 Arctic P12 / rad..
> 
> You have 2 radiators. Each radiator is 360x360mm designed to use 9x 120mm fans. You want to use 5x Arctic P12 fans pulling air out of each radiator.
> 
> If that is what you want to do I would mount fans in an 'X' about 180mm from radiator. Radial fans should be spaced their diameter away from flat surface for optimum flow. Arctic P12 is is 120mm fan so it needs to be 120mm away from radiator. Obviously area from radiator to fans has to be sealed with only openings being for radiator and fans. I'm guessing each case will be about 360x400mm inside measurement (just big enough to fit radiator in). You don't need much space between front filter.
> 
> Hope that helps. Feel free to ask if you need more info.


Yes exactly what I wanted to know . Thanx. Yeah the plan is 400 mm wide box.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Yes exactly what I wanted to know . Thanx. Yeah the plan is 400 mm wide box.


Re-read my post. Will add that diameter of fan spacing from radiator is minimum. More will space likely work better. So 400mm from front of rad to back of fan would give you up to about 300mm from rad to fan. Obviously area from rad to fans only airflow opening are rad and fans.


----------



## goulashi

Hey all any help would be greatly appreciated on fixing me airflow issue below









With me 3600x getting idle temp from 40-68c ill set the cooler again maybe thats an easy fix.
excuse the messy case i am not one for pristine cable management.

Any way to better re organize my 3 fans or add or substract for me to experiment with?

I carried over me old gamaxx 300 from old build and case starting to think its way to big for this case(nimitz n5).

please any criticism fire away ive always been a budget set fella, hence the case


----------



## doyll

Gamaxx 300 is not at all too big. In fact it is quite small. It's110x57.2x130.56 mm w/o fan / 110x75.5x135.7 mm w/ 120mm fan using 3x 6mm heat pipes is quite a small cooler. It has 3x 6mm heatpipes with a 130w TDP rating. I'm running a Thermalright ARO-M14O measuring 140x128.5x162.14mm w/ fan with 6x 6mm heatpipes rated 240w TDP on my 3600. Honestly, it has twice the cooling ability of your Gamaxx 300 and I find it about right for 3600 CPU. 

5th post this thread is a guide to how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow. I suggest you read it. 

What case, case fans and fan rpm to temp curves are you using?


----------



## ciarlatano

goulashi said:


> Hey all any help would be greatly appreciated on fixing me airflow issue below
> 
> With me 3600x getting idle temp from 40-68c ill set the cooler again maybe thats an easy fix.
> excuse the messy case i am not one for pristine cable management.
> 
> Any way to better re organize my 3 fans or add or substract for me to experiment with?
> 
> I carried over me old gamaxx 300 from old build and case starting to think its way to big for this case(nimitz n5).
> 
> please any criticism fire away ive always been a budget set fella, hence the case


If I were to take a wild guess.....your airflow is is being hampered by an incredibly restrictive front panel coupled with RGB fans that likely have very little static pressure. Try popping off the front panel and see what happens to the temps.




doyll said:


> What case, case fans and fan rpm to temp curves are you using?


Case is an Armaggeddon Nimitz N5, and those look like the stock fans (whatever they may be) - Armaggeddon Nimitz N5 Micro ATX See-Thru Side Panel Gaming PC Case


----------



## goulashi

The 3 case fans are a Rotanuim powersmart 4P-00G, yeah taking the front panel off was an idea I might just remove it and see what what happens.

Thanks for the direction, any idea if placing a cooler below the GPU would help expell it's heat in anyway?.


----------



## doyll

I was guessing same as ciarlatano, just didn't say it. Wanted you to give us your case fan details before making assumptions.

GPU cooler fans flow air into up in. They exhaust air on all sides except side with fan and side that is PCB. This all means you can't remove heated air from GPU down and out bottom of case. You can use bottom intake fan to help supply GPU with cool air. 

But none of this makes a bit of difference if your fans are not moving air as needed .. which is why I asked what fans you have.


----------



## goulashi

Thank you so much I'll go investigate more at least now I know my case and airflow are not ideal.
I'll go tinker with fan placements when the kids are away.

Highly appreciated all the expert advice.


----------



## doyll

Sorry, I missed you sayign you have Rotanuim PowerSmart 4P-00G fans. Their specs say 45cfm @ 1200rpm but give no static pressure rating. Static pressure rating of fan is really more important than airflow rating. My guess is their static pressure rating is quite low. 45cfm is not much and with no static pressure rating given I'm sure a couple good pressure rated fans would improve case airflow and give you lower temps. 

Try running your system with front grill and filter removed, as ciarlatano suggested. Blocking all openings in front intake fan mounting panel not covered by intake fans will force air to move on thru case, not leak around in front of fans and end up going in circles. All of this is explained in 5th post this thread. 11th post this thread explains how airflow and static pressure ratings relate to real world airflow.


----------



## goulashi

Yep defenitly will invest in better fans, only caught onto your thread a few days ago and have been hooked ever since.
Most likely this budget case needs a teardown to get anything descent circulation.


----------



## doyll

goulashi said:


> Yep defenitly will invest in better fans, only caught onto your thread a few days ago and have been hooked ever since.
> Most likely this budget case needs a teardown to get anything descent circulation.


Best low cost fan I know of are Arctic P12 and P14. They can usually be found in the $5-8.00 range and perform almost as well as fans costing $24-30.


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Best low cost fan I know of are Arctic P12 and P14. They can usually be found in the $5-8.00 range and perform almost as well as fans costing $24-30.


I'm going to guess that the RGB was a big part of the decision buying that case. At least from specs, the P12 RGB shows the expected performance drop from the standard P12. No clue why adding RGB kills fan performance.

I would say go with the RGB eLoops, but with that front cover, they would howl like banshees.


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> I'm going to guess that the RGB was a big part of the decision buying that case. At least from specs, the P12 RGB shows the expected performance drop from the standard P12. No clue why adding RGB kills fan performance.
> 
> I would say go with the RGB eLoops, but with that front cover, they would howl like banshees.


Indeed, Nimitz N5 front has very limited venting. Front has built in RGB so RGB fan only increase lighting inside of case. ARGB / RGB lighting strips are good low cost way to add RGB without compromising / sacrificing airflow performance with garbage fans using lights as sales bling.


----------



## goulashi

Thanks guys, really appreciate all the feedback.

I'll defenitly seek out them arctic fans, funny how after 2 decades of building PC I've never once thought about fan specs.
For me it was always just them rpm stats that mattered how wrong I have been.
Yes the small factor and them lights did hypnotism on me for buying that case and the low price.


----------



## ciarlatano

goulashi said:


> Thanks guys, really appreciate all the feedback.
> 
> I'll defenitly seek out them arctic fans, funny how after 2 decades of building PC I've never once thought about fan specs.
> For me it was always just them rpm stats that mattered how wrong I have been.
> Yes the small factor and them lights did hypnotism on me for buying that case and the low price.


But....have you popped the front panel off yet to see how much of a difference it makes?


----------



## learner-gr

Before i beggin to write first my sorry to doyll  for any upset i may make.
And also sorry about my english - american.

I know you are a fan of good air cooling and good fans.
As I have rewritten I have a 3700x processor and I cool it with a thermalright aro-m14g.
My case is a phanteks enthoo pro m with 2 silent wings 3 x 140mm high speed pwm at the front and they work depending on the temperature of the cpu. I also have removed the metals from the empty pci slots. 
At a room temperature of 22C i have the 3700x iddling at 36-37C with about 230 tabs opened 
At benchmarking i think the cpu reaches 65-70C. Also the CPU (Tclt/Tdie) reaches 75-76C max.

Now i found a 2month old Be Quiet PURE LOOP 360mm for 60 euros and i would like to ask if this a chance to get it and test it.
Could I reach better temperatures with it? Will the noise be louder?

Because in a few days I will have in my hands a ryzen 3950x, maybe it would be better to turn to Be Quiet PURE LOOP 360mm and leave the thermalright aro-m14g?


----------



## goulashi

ciarlatano said:


> But....have you popped the front panel off yet to see how much of a difference it makes?


Will be doing this today defenitly, I have already acquired p14 fans and have one as an intake behind the front panel so far MOBO temp is reduced it seems.
I think I had the wrong fans and case set up and was rightfully corrected by you guys👍


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Before i beggin to write first my sorry to doyll  for any upset i may make.
> And also sorry about my english - american.
> 
> I know you are a fan of good air cooling and good fans.
> As I have rewritten I have a 3700x processor and I cool it with a thermalright aro-m14g.
> My case is a phanteks enthoo pro m with 2 silent wings 3 x 140mm high speed pwm at the front and they work depending on the temperature of the cpu. I also have removed the metals from the empty pci slots.
> At a room temperature of 22C i have the 3700x iddling at 36-37C with about 230 tabs opened
> At benchmarking i think the cpu reaches 65-70C. Also the CPU (Tclt/Tdie) reaches 75-76C max.
> 
> Now i found a 2month old Be Quiet PURE LOOP 360mm for 60 euros and i would like to ask if this a chance to get it and test it.
> Could I reach better temperatures with it? Will the noise be louder?
> 
> Because in a few days I will have in my hands a ryzen 3950x, maybe it would be better to turn to Be Quiet PURE LOOP 360mm and leave the thermalright aro-m14g?


Don't worry about it. You won't upset me. Your English is fine.

Your present system is doing well I'm assuming it is not very loud at full load. Probably just loud enough to know it's working hard. 

60 euros sounds like a good deal. I don't know what they sell for where you are, but if you get it and don't like it you can probably sell it for at least that much. Why is person selling it?

I think if it was me I would buy it and try it out. Then if I didn't like it sell it and continue using ARO M14G. I'm running ARO M14O on my 3600 and find it a good coolers. 

I used a 280 for awhile but now it's just setting. As quiet as it was I still prefer air cooling. I had a dead 360 given to me but never used it. I am thinking of using both radiators in one loop, but haven't done it yet.


----------



## learner-gr

Doyll thanks for the reply!
The person is selling it because he changes to an all white system.
I have a heart biting to buy it and test it  but i don;t know if its loud and if it could lower my temperatures even more especially when i get the 3950x.

*Also i don't know if their any fails with this AIO water cooler.*


----------



## goulashi

Finally ripped of the front panel while the kids are away, I do feel like its not getting choked anymore thanks to ciarlatano.
Could not install the 2x 140mm inside the case so i improvised outside thanks Doyll.
It aint preety nor maybe efficent as it could be but i think its a lot better then before.

Wife aint gonna be happy when she sees another mod inside the house but hey this aint her pc.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Doyll thanks for the reply!
> The person is selling it because he changes to an all white system.
> I have a heart biting to buy it and test it  but i don;t know if its loud and if it could lower my temperatures even more especially when i get the 3950x.
> 
> *Also i don't know if their any fails with this AIO water cooler.*


I was wrong. I have their original Silent Loop (made by Aphacool), not Pure Loop (made by KD Industrial). Pure Loop has aluminum radiator with fill port and used inline pump about 5cm from radiator. They seem to perform well. I'm guessing it will cool a few degrees better than ARO-M14G, but don't think it will be as quiet, and definitely will not last as long as ARO-M14G. Air coolers last almost forever with only fan to wear out and out-dated mount to stop their use. AIO/CLCs last 2-6 years depending on load. When pump wears out they are basically junk. Silent Loop having fill port is nice, but port is on radiator end, so to add coolant with it mounted in top vent of Enthoo Pro M you might be able to turn case on it's front or back to add coolant, but then fill port will be vertical, not flat. I think best way to top up coolant is to remove AIO from system. This will allow radiator to be positioned flat so fill port end higher than other end with other AIO components and at highest point in system would require removing radiator. Even then it's hoses run to and from same side of other end of radiator. 

I'm pretty sure it will cool a little better than ARO-M14G, but can't say it's worth it or not. That is what you will need to decide for yourself. Sorry I can't give you a more definite answer.


----------



## doyll

goulashi said:


> View attachment 2528663
> 
> 
> Finally ripped of the front panel while the kids are away, I do feel like its not getting choked anymore thanks to ciarlatano.
> Could not install the 2x 140mm inside the case so i improvised outside thanks Doyll.
> It aint preety nor maybe efficent as it could be but i think its a lot better then before.
> 
> Wife aint gonna be happy when she sees another mod inside the house but hey this aint her pc.


That looks a lot better for airflow through case. Maybe just get a couple of filter grills to put on fans? Just google "140mm grill" to see some.


----------



## learner-gr

Doyll already bought it... 
When it will arrive i will try to write here my impressions.

I will put it on the upper grill of the case. How i must put the fans? To push air to radiator and then the air come out of the upper grill or pull air?


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Doyll already bought it...
> When it will arrive i will try to write here my impressions.
> 
> I will put it on the upper grill of the case. How i must put the fans? To push air to radiator and then the air come out of the upper grill or pull air?


I think there is as good a chance you will like it as not like it. 

Yes, please do some comparison testing of both running at same fan speed / noise level so we can all learn how it they compare.

I would mount it in top as exhaust. Oh, and check it is full of coolant before using it. I usually run them for at least a couple hours before installing to be sure of no leaks. Set it so fill port is at top, remove fill port and fill if needed. Then Run it for awhile and then you can carefully loosen and remove fill port to see if it's still full. Running it with fill port at highest point should move all air up to that point.


----------



## learner-gr

It will be my first watercooler so i will try my best


----------



## ciarlatano

goulashi said:


> View attachment 2528663
> 
> 
> Finally ripped of the front panel while the kids are away, I do feel like its not getting choked anymore thanks to ciarlatano.
> Could not install the 2x 140mm inside the case so i improvised outside thanks Doyll.
> It aint preety nor maybe efficent as it could be but i think its a lot better then before.
> 
> Wife aint gonna be happy when she sees another mod inside the house but hey this aint her pc.


LOL, I would never choke anyone.  

I was only pushing popping the front off since I assumed it would be simple, and really looked like it was the root cause of your issues.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> It will be my first watercooler so i will try my best


Be careful how you say "water cooling". Real "water cooling" is done with individual components all assembled by user; radiator, pump, reservoir, waterblock, etc all with individual threaded fitting installed into them. Then the hose is put on the fittings connecting components together. After it's all assembled user fills it with coolant checking for leaks and fighting to get all the air bubbles out, ofthe while running pump. Then let it run for a day or so to make sure nothing is leaking. All of that is done on these CLCs. (I say CLC because many of us consider AIO that are not CLC to be pre-assembled components with all threaded fittings. They can be repaired if needed and have pumps that flow much more coolant in liters per hour than CLCs do. CLCs are sub group of AIO. CLCs are factory assembled uints with no way to dissassemble components from hose. This means when any component goes bad system is junk. Owner cannot repair it. Very few CLCs have fill ports like one you are getting. AIOs that are not CLC can have components replaced as needed. Custom built water cooled systems almost always use pumps that will flow up to 600 liter per hour. All but a very few CLCs have pumps that flow no more than 60 liter per hour. For comparison, that is only slightly faster flow than a health young adult urinates. Users like ciarlatano and I have build many very nice custom loops so know how much different they are from CLCs and AIOs. As a comparison, the stock cooler that comes with a CPU is a CLC and your ARO-M14G is a custom loop. Something like Hyper 212 is a CLC.


----------



## Avacado

ciarlatano said:


> LOL, I would never choke anyone.


Don't lie.


----------



## ciarlatano

Avacado said:


> Don't lie.


----------



## learner-gr

Before i put the pure loop is the liquid inside electrically conductive? 
Does it have an danger to bring disaster inside case ?


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Before i put the pure loop is the liquid inside electrically conductive?
> Does it have an danger to bring disaster inside case ?


Yes, it is definitely conductive and if it leaks it can damage things. That is why I run mine unmounted and outside of case for at least several hours, a day is better. Same as I do custom loops before I install them.


----------



## learner-gr

I understand. Thanks again

From BeQuiet site :
My Silent Loop is leaking / has lost coolant, causing damage to other components in my system. What course of action should now be taken?

Unfortunately, on very rare occasions it can happen that coolant leaks from a Silent Loop due to a mechanical defect.
As the coolant liquid *is not electrically conductive*, any damage to peripheral devices is almost impossible.
After all the components have completely dried out, there should be nothing to prevent your system from operating normally again.

Heavy contamination inside the PC case, for example accumulated dust, can cause the coolant to become conductive.
For this reason, we recommend regular cleaning of the computer.

However, if you believe that other components have suffered damage, please contact our Service ([email protected]) staff, who will discuss further actions with you.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> I understand. Thanks again
> 
> From BeQuiet site :
> My Silent Loop is leaking / has lost coolant, causing damage to other components in my system. What course of action should now be taken?
> 
> Unfortunately, on very rare occasions it can happen that coolant leaks from a Silent Loop due to a mechanical defect.
> As the coolant liquid *is not electrically conductive*, any damage to peripheral devices is almost impossible.
> After all the components have completely dried out, there should be nothing to prevent your system from operating normally again.
> 
> Heavy contamination inside the PC case, for example accumulated dust, can cause the coolant to become conductive.
> For this reason, we recommend regular cleaning of the computer.
> 
> However, if you believe that other components have suffered damage, please contact our Service ([email protected]) staff, who will discuss further actions with you.


That may be accurate, but in my experience coolants become conductive after being used for awhile.

Distilled water is not conductive, but after being used in a system with aluminum or copper radiator, waterblock with copper base their is metal transfer from them into coolant making it conductive. Then the water becomes conductive.

Their statement is technically correct, but it has limitations. Any liquid used in a coolant loop will pick up trace metal particles and ions that escape from blocks/rads/etc. This causes the liquid to become conductive. This is of course compounded if that coolant leaks onto dust that has collected in your case making it even more conductive. 

Distilled / very soft water actually draws metals from metal surfaces into it .. water normally has other things in it. 

I think their claim of it being no-conductive is more a way to avoid having to pay for damages from leaks than proof coolant is non-conductive. You can believe what you want. I'm not going to believe water is non-conductive, distilled o not.


----------



## learner-gr

doyll said:


> That may be accurate,.......
> .....
> *I think their claim of it being no-conductive is more a way to avoid having to pay for damages from leaks than proof coolant is non-conductive*. You can believe what you want. I'm not going to believe water is non-conductive, distilled o not.


I believe the same, to avoid having to pay for damages.


----------



## learner-gr

I would like to ask if i can put the pump of the watercooler in the left side as we see it in the photo to avoid any air disruption from the front panel fans. I don't care if it doesn't appear the PURE LOOP logo.


----------



## doyll

Should work fine as is or at back of case. 

How is it working so far?


----------



## learner-gr

This photo wasn't mine. I found it on the internet to describe what i wanted to do.
I got the watercooler but the seller forgot to send me the Y splitter, sata cable and some screws  
Now i wait to get them to continue.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> This photo wasn't mine. I found it on the internet to describe what i wanted to do.
> I got the watercooler but the seller forgot to send me the Y splitter, sata cable and some screws
> Now i wait to get them to continue.


Bummer! 
At least seller has them and is sending them to you. Will be nice to find out how it does vs ARO-M14G


----------



## TeslaHUN

Wow . The first fan from Corsair that I would buy :


----------



## goulashi

TeslaHUN said:


> Wow . The first fan from Corsair that I would buy :


No different then having your own pedestal fan flush against your case, still a good novelty since it retains all the asthetics of a branded fan..


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Wow . The first fan from Corsair that I would buy :


Really?
You would buy one when test model arrived barely running, died shortly later and when re-build with same motor assembly was starting to fail again before testing was done.
I thought you were smarter than that. 😉

Corsair outsources some shop to make a novelty 500mm fan that barely runs when unboxed and dies shortly after starting up. 

Typical of Corsair (and many others), they out-sourced the development of this to some shop / lab with resulting fan having issues right out of box (no pun) .. and exact same motor assembly as one that failed has same pre-failure issues before testing is even finished.
But it is kinda funny. 
Maybe it's just an April Fools Day joke fan first showing up on web 4 months later.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Im looking for dust filter for my external watercooling cabinet (1200mm tall 450mm wide ) . Atm i have cheap plastic filter from aliexpress
Im thinking about 2 upgrade option . One cheaper and one expensive .
45 EUR : 6x Silverstone FF 142 (930x 320mm in total )
93EUR : CaseLabs STH10 Dust Filter Kit ( 1208x 336mm in total )
I know ; both filters are very good quality . SST nylon filter is more airflow focused , and Demciflex is better in filtering . 
Silverstone is easy to clean with tapwater since it has plastic frame . 
Demciflex could be flimsy since i dont have any mesh/grill to hold it in place ,just a big gaping hole in the cabinet .
Do you think its worth the 2x price for the Demci ?


----------



## Melcar

I'm a fan of the Silverstone filters. They catch a good amount of dust and are not that restrictive. Easy to clean too.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk


----------



## ciarlatano

TeslaHUN said:


> Im looking for dust filter for my external watercooling cabinet (1200mm tall 450mm wide ) . Atm i have cheap plastic filter from aliexpress
> Im thinking about 2 upgrade option . One cheaper and one expensive .
> 45 EUR : 6x Silverstone FF 142 (930x 320mm in total )
> 93EUR : CaseLabs STH10 Dust Filter Kit ( 1208x 336mm in total )
> I know ; both filters are very good quality . SST nylon filter is more airflow focused , and Demciflex is better in filtering .
> Silverstone is easy to clean with tapwater since it has plastic frame .
> Demciflex could be flimsy since i dont have any mesh/grill to hold it in place ,just a big gaping hole in the cabinet .
> Do you think its worth the 2x price for the Demci ?





Melcar said:


> I'm a fan of the Silverstone filters. They catch a good amount of dust and are not that restrictive. Easy to clean too.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk


I agree with Melcar. I have several of the Silverstones and they have worked out quite well.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Im looking for dust filter for my external watercooling cabinet (1200mm tall 450mm wide ) . Atm i have cheap plastic filter from aliexpress
> Im thinking about 2 upgrade option . One cheaper and one expensive .
> 45 EUR : 6x Silverstone FF 142 (930x 320mm in total )
> 93EUR : CaseLabs STH10 Dust Filter Kit ( 1208x 336mm in total )
> I know ; both filters are very good quality . SST nylon filter is more airflow focused , and Demciflex is better in filtering .
> Silverstone is easy to clean with tapwater since it has plastic frame .
> Demciflex could be flimsy since i dont have any mesh/grill to hold it in place ,just a big gaping hole in the cabinet .
> Do you think its worth the 2x price for the Demci ?


I've never done any testing of Demciflex vs Silverstone filters, but have used both in different builds. I've used FF122, FF143, FF122 and FF141 many times. They always did a good job of catching dust. I vacuum case filters at least once a month, often weekly (like every time I vacuum the house). It's too easy to forget about it with filters ending up looking like miniature fleece blankets. 

Might be worth looking around and comparing prices. Amazon.co.uk has FF142 for £4.99 each while some sites list them for as much as £51.49


----------



## TeslaHUN

Ok thanx for feedbacks ! I 'll buy the SST 142 .


----------



## D-EJ915

Figured I would ask you other fan nerds, anybody want this lot? I need to clean up and need to get rid of them. Just pm me if you do.



http://imgur.com/n5nzfQb


1 2k f12 ippc 3-pin
2 ap141
2 2k a14 ippc 3-pin
6 vardar 140s
1 2k kaze flex 3-pin
1 ap120i pro
2 sw3 hs 3-pin
2 140mp white
2 ml140
1 a12x25 3-pin
1 120 sw3 pwm
1 tl-c14x
1 sf120m masterfan
1 anemometer
1 noisemeter
box of random fans 120 and 140


----------



## learner-gr

FInally the first tests of the Bequiet PureLoop 360mm aio.

Motherboard : crosshair viii wifi 3700x
Case : ENTHOO PRO M
2 FRONT SILENT WINGS 3 HIGH SPEED 140mm fans
The top front SW3 is regulated : 30C with 30%rpm, 60C with 80% rpm, 75C with 100% rpm
The bottom front SW3 is regulated : 30C with 40%rpm, 60C with 80% rpm, 75C with 100% rpm

Bequiet PureLoop 360mm placed at the top
opera 167 tabs
firefox 1 tab

Temperatures taken from HWINFO 
OCCT V5.5.1
LINPACK 

ran the LINPACK for 10min then reset the temps (in the HWINFO) and then again ran for 10min (took the max and average temps of the cpu and also the max rpms of fans) and then reset temps and then surfing for about 15-20mins to take the idle temps of cpu and the average rpms of the aio and front case fans.

Room temp 20,7c and 68% humidity 

cpu 51 avg idling 33 54c max 
cpu Tctl/Tdie 61,8 avg idle 35 65,1c max
cpu die avg 59,3 idle 35 64,7c max
cpu ccd1 Tdie 58,8 avg idle 34 68,8c max
bequiet pure loop 360mm 1562RPM max avg 1050 after the test
sw3 up 1168 max avg 600 after the test 
sw3 1176 max avg 750 after the test
vrm 30max idle27 after the test
dim 36-37c max  idle both 33 after the test

Tried to put the pump near the back of the case but saw that the hoses had some stretch so i put it near the front of the case (default).


----------



## learner-gr

I closed all the running fans both the SW3 and the fans of the pureloop and i hear the pump making a humming noise 
The Bequiet at the instructions says to plug the 3pin cable from pump to psu sata (Y cable provided by BeQuiet). That way it gives the pump 12v and the pump is working at full speed.
Can i plug the 3pin cable from pump to the motherboard AIO_PUMP connector and run it DC at lower speeds to lower the sound of the pump?


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> I closed all the running fans both the SW3 and the fans of the pureloop and i hear the pump making a humming noise
> The Bequiet at the instructions says to plug the 3pin cable from pump to psu sata (Y cable provided by BeQuiet). That way it gives the pump 12v and the pump is working at full speed.
> Can i plug the 3pin cable from pump to the motherboard AIO_PUMP connector and run it DC at lower speeds to lower the sound of the pump?


If amp / watt rating of mobo pump header is higher amp / watt rating than pump you can run pump on it. Keep in mind when you slow pump speed you also slow coolant flow rate.


----------



## learner-gr

Doyll send an e-mail to Bequiet asking the amp / watt rating of the pump.
When they reply i will write it here.

I don't think its a problem because the Asus Crosshair VIII Hero motherboard i have, has one AIO_PUMP header with Max.Current 1A and Max Power 12W and also one W+PUMP+ header with Max.Current 3A and Max Power 36W.


----------



## doyll

1 amp / 12 watts (voltage x amps = watts) is not much amperage. It's what most fan headers are. 

The 3A W_PUMP+ header rating is probably enough, but as both are PWM (4-pin) headers and I see nothing about being able to switch either one to variable voltage I don't think it will using motherboard pump headers will help. Isn't your Pure Loop pump is variable voltage? 
Variable voltage / 3-pin header is pin-1 = variable voltage, pin-2 = ground, pin-3 = rpm.​If you plug variable voltage pump to a PWM header it will run full speed because pin-1 is constant 12v power.​PWM 4-pin header is pin-1 = 12v, pin -2 = ground, pin-3 = rpm, pin-4 = PWM control.​PWM control circuit in pump housing pulses 12v power to lower pump speed.​Hope that helps explain it. 
​


----------



## learner-gr

The Pure Loop pump is not variable voltage. It works at 100% speed.

My motherboard in the bios can change the header either PWM or DC so i think i can play with voltage to try lowering the pump speed to some degree. Hope i will not destroy it 😁 
Here what writes in the manual


----------



## doyll

​


learner-gr said:


> The Pure Loop pump is not variable voltage. It works at 100% speed.
> 
> My
> View attachment 2530428


Exactly! If it is not PWM (and it is not PWM), then the only way to slow down pump speed is with variable voltage.

Well, technically that is not true. There are PWM controllers that convert constant 12v power into 12v pulses. This kind of PWM controller changes the constant 12v power into 12v power pulses. How many pulses per minute and how long each pulse is vs how much time there is no power controls how fast or slow motor spins. I have not used any of these, but am told they work fine.
Here is link to one:








1 x PWM DC 6V 12V 24V 28V 3A Motor Speed Control Switch Controller | eBay


Do not dismiss your dream. Duty Cycle adjustable:5%-100%. Do not run through your life so fast that you forget not only where you have been, but also where you are. To be without dream is to be without hope.



www.ebay.co.uk




Edit: It's says it's 3 amp, but is that 3 amp at 28v or 3 amp at 12v??? 
36 watts at 12v is 3 amp​36 watts at 28v is 1.285 amp​


----------



## learner-gr

As far as i can see the AIO_PUMP header is Max.Current 1A and Max Power 12W and the W+PUMP+ header is Max.Current 3A and Max Power 36W.
Have a look in the motherboard manual at these pages :
page 23 of 110 in the manual
page 50 of 110 in the manual.


https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/SocketAM4/ROG_CROSSHAIR_VIII_HERO_WI-FI/E15378_ROG_CROSSHAIR_VIII_HERO_WI-FI_UM_WEB.pdf



The PWM controller you write looks good but because I do not feel comfortable with these patents I think I would do better with the motherboard header if there not a problem.


----------



## learner-gr

Maybe i should also try any sound proof material to wrap the pump.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> The Pure Loop pump is not variable voltage. It works at 100% speed.
> 
> My motherboard in the bios can change the header either PWM or DC so i think i can play with voltage to try lowering the pump speed to some degree. Hope i will not destroy it 😁
> Here what writes in the manual
> View attachment 2530429


Is this quote from be quiet! manual or motherboard manual? 

Either way, be quiet! does not recommend lower pump speed. I think it's safe to do it as long as it's not too much lower voltage / flowrate. You will have to what CPU temp if running pump slower, and as CPU load and temp increase you will need to increase pump rpm to increase coolant flowrate. I'll try to remember too look at your manual tomorrow and try to find out if W+pump+ header can be speed controlled using CPU temp. That would be best way to control it.



learner-gr said:


> As far as i can see the AIO_PUMP header is Max.Current 1A and Max Power 12W and the W+PUMP+ header is Max.Current 3A and Max Power 36W.
> Have a look in the motherboard manual at these pages :
> page 23 of 110 in the manual
> page 50 of 110 in the manual.
> 
> 
> https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/SocketAM4/ROG_CROSSHAIR_VIII_HERO_WI-FI/E15378_ROG_CROSSHAIR_VIII_HERO_WI-FI_UM_WEB.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> The PWM controller you write looks good but because I do not feel comfortable with these patents I think I would do better with the motherboard header if there not a problem.


I agree, if you can set the W+PUMP+ header can be set to variable voltage in bios you can use. Like I said above, you do use variable voltage to lower pump voltage / rpm keep it running as fast as possible. Only slow it down just enough to be quieter..


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Maybe i should also try any sound proof material to wrap the pump.
> View attachment 2530467


Probably won't help much if at all. 
Does it get quieter if you hold onto it?


----------



## learner-gr

doyll said:


> Is this quote from be quiet! manual or motherboard manual? *Its from Bequiet manual*
> 
> Either way, be quiet! does not recommend lower pump speed. I think it's safe to do it as long as it's not too much lower voltage / flowrate. You will have to what CPU temp if running pump slower, and as CPU load and temp increase you will need to increase pump rpm to increase coolant flowrate. I'll try to remember too look at your manual tomorrow and try to find out if W+pump+ header can be speed controlled using CPU temp. That would be best way to control it.
> 
> 
> I agree, if you can set the W+PUMP+ header can be set to variable voltage in bios you can use. Like I said above, you do use variable voltage to lower pump voltage / rpm keep it running as fast as possible. Only slow it down just enough to be quieter..


----------



## learner-gr

doyll said:


> Probably won't help much if at all.
> Does it get quieter if you hold onto it? * I didn't try it this. Maybe i should if i open the case again.*


----------



## Shawnb99

learner-gr said:


> Maybe i should also try any sound proof material to wrap the pump.
> View attachment 2530467



Build a soundproof box around the pump. It should help


----------



## doyll

Trying to dampen sound pump with material and/or box will increase case pump temperature. This is because pump motor radiates heat, and that heat radiates into case airflow. Wrapping pump in sound deaden material or in box traps pump motor heat.

Pump noise is also transmitted through hoses away from pump.

Even top tier pumps make some noise at higher speeds, but they are designed to be slowed down and be much quieter. Almost all custom loops use EK D5 pump (or similar). D6 is rated 1500 L/h or 3.9 meter lift It's hard to know exactly what AIO and CLC pump flow and lift specs are because most do not publish this information. Most AIOs that are CLC are made by Asetek, Alphatek, Frost Flow. Enermax Liq-Tech TR4 pump was rated 660L/h (CLC) but they were pulled from market because of problems. ID-Cooling is the exception with rates ranging from 96 L/h to 450 L/h or 1.2 -3 meter lift. That is much better than most CLCs. The few that have over the years of production give specs as 34.2 L/h to 61 L/h. AIOs that are not CLC (Alphacool, Swiftech OEM) pumps are rated 72-660 L/h). 

To give you an idea of how flow most CLCs have, average healthy 16-50 year old adult male flowrate average is 47.6 L/h with a maximum flowrate of 82.1 L/h maximum. Male over 50 years old average is 61.3 L/h with an average of 32 L/h.

In other words, most CLCs have a flowrate similar to or les than adult male urine flowrate .. while custom loop flowrate is up to 10 times greater. 

Sorry to write so much. Hopefully it's helpful.


----------



## TeslaHUN

TeslaHUN said:


> Im looking for dust filter for my external watercooling cabinet (1200mm tall 450mm wide ) . Atm i have cheap plastic filter from aliexpress
> Im thinking about 2 upgrade option . One cheaper and one expensive .
> 45 EUR : 6x Silverstone FF 142 (930x 320mm in total )
> 93EUR : CaseLabs STH10 Dust Filter Kit ( 1208x 336mm in total )
> I know ; both filters are very good quality . SST nylon filter is more airflow focused , and Demciflex is better in filtering .
> Silverstone is easy to clean with tapwater since it has plastic frame .
> Demciflex could be flimsy since i dont have any mesh/grill to hold it in place ,just a big gaping hole in the cabinet .
> Do you think its worth the 2x price for the Demci ?


Hmmm i have a new idea . What if i buy 4x Ikea HEPA filter for the radiator box ? (to use them sideways above of each other ,I guess they work that way too) Its so cheap ;4x6$ only . This way my rads and my room's air also stay clean. Or shall I say kill two birds with one stone  . I can just vacum them monthly and replace the 4filter every year .
They might be restrictive , but i will have 22 fans on radiators and 4 filter has big surface area so should be fine ?! Or even i could mix in a few extra Silverstone filters that i already have.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Hmmm i have a new idea . What if i buy 4x Ikea HEPA filter for the radiator box ? (to use them sideways above of each other ,I guess they work that way too) Its so cheap ;4x6$ only . This way my rads and my room's air also stay clean. Or shall I say kill two birds with one stone  . I can just vacum them monthly and replace the 4filter every year .
> They might be restrictive , but i will have 22 fans on radiators and 4 filter has big surface area so should be fine ?! Or even i could mix in a few extra Silverstone filters that i already have.


Is your air dirty enough to even need filters on rads?
Would vacuuming intake side of rads every time you vac house (I'm guessing weekly) would keep them clean? 
Maybe cheap filters vacuumed weekly or twice monthly .. maybe even monthly might be all that is needed.


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> Is your air dirty enough to even need filters on rads?
> Would vacuuming intake side of rads every time you vac house (I'm guessing weekly) would keep them clean?
> Maybe cheap filters vacuumed weekly or twice monthly .. maybe even monthly might be all that is needed.


Yes ,the house is located in agricultural area ,air is very dirty (Not to mention i have carpet +floor heating) . I have a Xiaomi air purifier ,but its loud on max , and very weak on minimum ,so I dont even use it . I might just relocate it to another room if my radiator box would act as an air purifier


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Yes ,the house is located in agricultural area ,air is very dirty (Not to mention i have carpet +floor heating) . I have a Xiaomi air purifier ,but its loud on max , and very weak on minimum ,so I dont even use it . I might just relocate it to another room if my radiator box would act as an air purifier


Sounds like you definitely need filters on it. I know how dirty agricultural areas are, especially dry months and harvest season. Maybe pleated furnace filters are an option?


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> Sounds like you definitely need filters on it. I know how dirty agricultural areas are, especially dry months and harvest season. Maybe pleated furnace filters are an option?


Sadly no , there are no furnace filters avaible in Hungary . HVAC systems are not common here .
There is only one company who sell some filters , but these are only G3 / G4 (filter classes) .Even Demciflex should be more efficient.


----------



## Skylinestar

What's the best fan to be fitted on the Noctua NH-C14S cooler to maximize cooling to the motherboard vrm areas?


----------



## Melcar

Skylinestar said:


> What's the best fan to be fitted on the Noctua NH-C14S cooler to maximize cooling to the motherboard vrm areas?


Changing fans won't make much difference since the stock fan is already rather good. Do you have any issues with the fan? If you want increased performance over the stock setup (and not have to change coolers) you are going to have to go with a faster fan (and deal with the extra noise). Something like a ML140 (kinda meh), TY-143 (good fan) or the new PH-F140MP V2 (also good fan). I guess you could also go for the NF-A12x25 or a T30-120, but I doubt they would be THAT much better over the stock fan (certainly not $30 better).


----------



## TeslaHUN

Skylinestar said:


> on the Noctua NH-C14S cooler to maximize cooling to the motherboard vrm a


You can use push /pull on the C14S (YT link )(measure memory clearance first) .If it was mine , I would buy 2x Arctic P14pwm pst for the CPU cooler , and use the stock NF 14 fan as case fan.


----------



## doyll

Skylinestar said:


> What's the best fan to be fitted on the Noctua NH-C14S cooler to maximize cooling to the motherboard vrm areas?


Stock NF-A14 is a good fan as others have said. R5 case has good airflow if setup right. Assuming case airflow is setup properly VRM areas shouldn't run hot. Rig info says you have Ph-f140SP and Noctua NF-P14s Redux 1200 case fans. In what vents do you have fans mounted? Which are intake and exhaust? How are they speed controlled? Do they change speed in sync with CPU and GPU cooler fans based on temp? 

You might find 5th post this thread with basics of how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow helpful.


----------



## Memmento Mori

TeslaHUN said:


> Sadly no , there are no furnace filters avaible in Hungary . HVAC systems are not common here .
> There is only one company who sell some filters , but these are only G3 / G4 (filter classes) .Even Demciflex should be more efficient.


Tesla take a look at Ionic-CARE Triton X6  found even an Hungarian site. Have at home in the living room using it in a flat. It works not bad. Dost saying it clears the air for 100% and i don't have any dust anymore in the flat, but seeing how much it is capable to absorb each week I'm happy with it. Best part is that it makes no noise, and also takes just 12W max power.... And also you clean the filter with a wet towel let it dry for 1-2 hours and put it back to action.... I'm using it now 3 years and don't saw any degradation..... And it also absorbs exhaust particles from the air (as im living in a bigger city i see the black film on it....) Just an idea....


----------



## goulashi

Sorry to bring up me case again just wanted to thank everyone for all the suggestions, with a silverstone filter and me antics finally installed inside the case not outside it all works like a charm.

This cheap case specifically said you can install 2x 140mm for the front but you could not so i had to get me cutter out and chop a bit of the metal inside to make them fit.








thanks again.


----------



## doyll

Looks nice in picture you posted. Would love to see more pictures of it. 

Thank you for letting us know how it all turned out.


----------



## Skylinestar

Melcar said:


> Changing fans won't make much difference since the stock fan is already rather good. Do you have any issues with the fan? If you want increased performance over the stock setup (and not have to change coolers) you are going to have to go with a faster fan (and deal with the extra noise). Something like a ML140 (kinda meh), TY-143 (good fan) or the new PH-F140MP V2 (also good fan). I guess you could also go for the NF-A12x25 or a T30-120, but I doubt they would be THAT much better over the stock fan (certainly not $30 better).


A TY-143 (round frame) is approx US$7 in my country. It will beat the stock fan (with more noise as penalty)?



doyll said:


> Stock NF-A14 is a good fan as others have said. R5 case has good airflow if setup right. Assuming case airflow is setup properly VRM areas shouldn't run hot. Rig info says...


The Noctua NH-C14S cooler will not go into my current rig (which I'm very happy with). It's meant for a future build.


----------



## doyll

TY-143 are very good fans. They idle down to about 550-600rpm being nearly silent. I've got a pair on old red PH-TC14PE cooler on i7-920 that's been going for years and years idling at 600rpm and almost never above 1200rpm. Even at 1200rpm they are barely audible .. just enough to know system is working very hard. After 4-5 years if I get my ear almost touching fan I can hear a very low volume rumbling sound I assume is ball-bearing noise.


----------



## michozara

Hello everyone, I have been researching airflow for a couple of days now, gone through the guide here and numerous videos and posts comparing fans and cases, which is the final step in completing my new gaming/workstation.
As I found this guide to be the most informational source on the web, I decided to ask for final help and opinions.
You will see I have put together a list of possible fan setups I have tough of, these are just the ones I have written down as a possibility after my research (hinting that I might have totally missed the point and put together bad fan setups), hence feel free to correct me and make fun of me as much as you want x), I'm here to learn and decide on the case and the fan setup while other parts are in transit 

Lets see if i got this right:
Processor - AMD Ryzen 9 5950X
G.Skill TridentZ RGB Series - DDR4 - Kit - 64 GB: 4 x 16 GB ( F4-3600C14Q-64GTZRA )
MB - Asus ROG CROSSHAIR VIII DARK HERO
PSU - be quiet! DARK POWER 12 1000W
Storage - Seagate FireCuda 530 2 TB 4.0 3D TLC NVMe
CPU cooler - Noctua NH-D15 Chromax Black
GPU - ROG-STRIX-RTX3080-O10G-GAMING 
*___*

Now to the cases(can't rly decide here) and planned fan setups - in no particular order:
(Nx = max number of fans case supports, F= Front fan, T= Top fan, R= Rear fan, B= Bottom fan)
1. Phanteks - Eclipse P500A (140mm: 3xF, 2xT, 1xR /// 120mm: 3xF, 3xT, 1xR)
2. Phanteks - Eclipse P600s (140mm: 3xF, 2xT, 1xR /// 120mm: 3xF, 3xT, 1xR)
3. be quiet! Silent Base 802 (140mm: 3xF, 3xT, 1xR, 2xB /// 120mm: 3xF, 3xT, 1xR, 2xB)
4. Fractal Design Meshify 2 (140mm: 3xF, 3xT, 1xR, 2xB /// 120mm: 3xF, 3xT, 1xR, 2xB)
5. Corsair 5000D Airflow (140mm: 2xF, 2xT, 0xR /// 120mm: 3xF, 3xT, 1xR)
6. Lian Li Lancool Mesh 2 (140mm: 2xF, 2T, 0R /// 120mm: 3xF, 2xT, 1xR)

To be honest I have no personal preference here, they all seem to bee good cases, the Fractal Design Meshify 2 and be Quiet! Silent Base 802 seem to be the 2 ultimate ones for modding due to their high fan count support, followed the Phanteks - Eclipse P500A & P600S which seem to be one of the favorite cases out there, and the Corsair 5000D & Lian Li Lancool Mesh 2 which offers a little less fan support but seems to be the aesthetically most pleasing one to many.
If I missed any good cases, feel free to recommend!



Fan Choices (noise, airflow and pressure taken as written on producer page, I also made a google sheet of the fans i chose if anyone finds the need for it)
140mm:
blacknoise NB-eLoop B14-PS* - <24,28 dBA, 142.6 m³, <1,080 mm H2O
noctua NF-A14 PWM chromax.black.swap - 24,6 dBA, 140,2 m³, 2,08 H2O
120mm:
blacknoise NB-eLoop B12-PS* - 21 dBA , 98.7 m³, < 1,475 H2O
blacknoise NB-eLoop B12-P - 28 dBA , 132.4 m³, < 2,240 H2O
noctua NF-A12x25 PWM chromax.black.swap - 22,6 dBA, 102,1 m³, 2,34 H2O
noctua NF-S12A PWM chromax.black.swap - 17,8 dBA, 107,5 m³, 1,19 H2O
noctua NF-F12 PWM chromax.black.swap - 22,4 dBA , 93,4 m³, 2,61 H2O
noctua NF-P12 redux-1700 PWM - 25,1 dBA , 120,2 m³ , 2,83 H2O

My personal preference on the fan are the Noctua NF-A14 PWM chromax.black.swap ones in the 140mm category and the Noctua NF-P12 redux-1700 PWM, based on the desire not to go higher then 25 dBA, their higher Static pressure mm H₂O compared to the other fans.

Some of the Fan setups I tough of depending on the case, taken into account that I'm aiming for some bigger case here.
For the setups I haven't done precise calculations but I was looking at averaging out intake and exhaust cfm (granted I do not know how much my GPU contributes here, couldn't find any numbers),
granted in some setups bellow I tried to compensate for the GPU with higher inflow.

3x 140mm intakes on the front, 2x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 140mm exhaust rear
3x 140mm intakes on the front, 3x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 140mm exhaust rear
3x 140mm intakes on the front, 1x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 140mm exhaust rear
2x 140mm intakes on the front, 2x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 120mm exhaust rear
2x 140mm intakes on the front, 1x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 120mm exhaust rear
3x 140mm intakes on the front, 1x 140mm intake on the bottom, 2x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 140mm exhaust rear
3x 140mm intakes on the front, 2x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 120mm exhaust rear
3x 140mm intakes on the front, 2x 120mm exhaust on top, 1x 140mm exhaust rear
3x 120mm intakes on the front, 1x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 140mm exhaust rear
3x 120mm intakes on the front, 2x 120mm exhaust on top, 1x 120mm exhaust rear
2x 140mm intakes on the front, 1x 140mm intake on the bottom, 3x 140mm exhaust on top, 1x 120mm exhaust rear

As mentioned already, the setups might be a total fail and I'm happy to hear recomendations, that's the reason why I'm here, to learn, to avoid it and decide on the best option


----------



## doyll

I assume you read how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow in 5th post this read. It's a pretty good guide to airflow basics.

Couple of things I noticed in fan setup:
Using top front vent usually disrupts case front to back airflow by either pushing air in changing smooth flow from front to CPU cooler or pulling out drawing heated up up from GPU to mix with / heating up airflow to CPU cooler.​​I've found most of the time filling front and sometimes bottom with good pressure rated intake fans and leaving exhaust vents empty creates very good case airflow. All openings not covered by intake fans in front half of case need to be blocked / blanked / sealed off so air intake fans push into case cannot leak from mobo compartment around to intake side of fans to end up flowing in circles instead of flowing on through case and out. Most of the time removing all PCIe back slot covers helps by improving front to back flow around GPU so it gets lower temp air and runs cooler at lower fan speeds. Exceptions to above are how some of new 3080/3090 GPU coolers which exhaust over RAM. Sometimes they work better with PCIe slot covers on.


----------



## michozara

Thanks for further explanation! Would you mind sharing some pictures on how you covered the openings on the intake fans, I'm not sure I quite grasp those, thanks in advance!


----------



## doyll

michozara said:


> Thanks for further explanation! Would you mind sharing some pictures on how you covered the openings on the intake fans, I'm not sure I quite grasp those, thanks in advance!


Here is image of Phanteks Evolv ATX with 120 radiator in top. Pink area sealed / blocked around where 240 radiator fits to stop airflow. 2nd one is white openings not blocked off to stop airflow. What we are doing is using fan mounting panels as dividers between areas / compartments in our cases so air moving from intake side to exhaust side of fans / from on area / compartment of case to another cannot has to flow on thru case. If we don't do this, the airflow generated by fans will circle around inside of case from intake side of fan to exhaust side of fan to intake side of fan to exhaust side of fan .... not what we want!! We want the air coming into case to flow on through case collecting heat as it goes and flowing it on out of case .... not flowing randomly about inside of case becoming hotter and hotter. 









Quite simple really. Just put some tape over openings. I usually use wrapping tape for bigger openings and scotch tape for small ones.


----------



## learner-gr

Hi doyll and others!
I found one used Noctua NH-D15 for 45 euros and i would like to ask if i will see any difference with the Thermalright ARO-M14G i already have or it would better to stay with the one I have.
Thanks in advance.
p.s. *also whats the thickness of the heatpipes*?


----------



## learner-gr

Anyone?


----------



## Melcar

The heatpipes on both heatsinks are 6mm. Can't say how they would compare, but I don't think the difference would be too drastic.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Hi doyll and others!
> I found one used Noctua NH-D15 for 45 euros and i would like to ask if i will see any difference with the Thermalright ARO-M14G i already have or it would better to stay with the one I have.
> Thanks in advance.
> p.s. *also whats the thickness of the heatpipes*?


NH-D15 is maybe 1-2c cooler. But D15 has higher speed 1500rpm fans to ARO-M14's 1300rpm fan making 2-4dBA more noise doing it.


----------



## learner-gr

So maybe i must stay with ARO-M14


----------



## doyll

You don't have to stay with ARO-M14. But you are not going to gain much going to D15. 
D15 footprint is 150x157.5x160mm (WxDxH) w/ front of fan 89.5mm from center CPU.​ARO-M14 is 152x115.2x162mm w/ front of fan 53.3mm from center CPU.​
Both have 6x 6mm heatpipes. 

D15 has two 150x50x110mm finpacks w/ two 150x 20x15mm of fins notched out for RAM clearance and 2x 1500rpm fans.
ARO-M14 has full size 140x102x105.4mm finpack and 1x 1300rpm fan. 
D15 with 1500rpm fan gives it slightly more airflow than ARO-M14 which is why it sometimes a little more cooling .. at the expense of about 5dBA higher noise level. 

To me the only reason to even consider D15 is it can be used on other CPUs.


----------



## learner-gr

Hi Doyll and others.
Is anyone uses this tool ?








Core Temp


Core Temp is a compact, no fuss, small footprint, yet powerful program to monitor processor temperature and other vital information.




www.techspot.com


----------



## GeneO

learner-gr said:


> Hi Doyll and others.
> Is anyone uses this tool ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Core Temp
> 
> 
> Core Temp is a compact, no fuss, small footprint, yet powerful program to monitor processor temperature and other vital information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.techspot.com


Yes. I use it to display the core temperature in the taskbar tray.


----------



## doyll

I've used it in the past and like it, but that was several years ago. I've been using Open Hardware Monitor with bar graph set to 24hr most of the time. I like being able to select and see RAM, GPU &/or CPU usage & temp, fans' speeds, etc history in graph. When I've testing I set graph to time of test. With CPU coolers it's usually 10-20 minutes.


----------



## learner-gr

Hi Doyll and others!
Its 3 days i installed my NH-D15 on my system. Before this i was working an AIO PURE LOOP 360 for 1 month and before this an ARO-M14. All i had them with arctic MX4 paste.

The *ARO-M14* was *very good* and *silent*. The *PURE LOOP 360 *was *even better* (for temperatures) but the *noise from the pump* (like some coil whine) when i had the fans on low rpms was driving me nuts  because its works in full speed (sata cable from PSU). I place some* noise dumber *and it was *better *but it *wasn't elliminate the noise*. I was thinking to put the pump in one pwm connector on my motherboard but then i bought a used NH-D15 for a good price and put it in my system to test it.

I would like to thank the NOCTUA company for sending me for free the AM4 base because the cooler was 1st bought before the AM4 socket was made.

I have placed the *D15 *with one fan. From using it for 3 days now i can say that it is an *excellent product *and i have at *idle *almost the *same temperatures as the PURE LOOP 360* with almost *no noise* and with *no dangers* (of using water inside the case).

I also tested *ARCTIC P14*, *SILENT WINGS 3 140 PWM HIGH SPEED* and *AF15 *(of the D15 cooler) at 1300-1350rpm outside of box placed on floor and measure the db with my smart phone. I found that the SW3 at 1320rpm was 55/56DB, the AF15 at 1350rpm 61DB. The P14 at 1315rpm 61db. As you can see the *SW3 *was *5-6db lower *than the others at almost same speed.

So in an upcoming update i will try the SW3 on the D15 cooler to see if it better. And also i got some new arctic MX5 paste.

I also tried blender 2.91.2 and had cpu *51C *max (ryzen 3700x) at 19,5C 60% with PURE LOOP 360.
With D15 and room temp 20C 65% i had cpu *54C *max.
So i think that the *D15 *is a *great product.*

My case is one ENTHOO PRO M with 2 FRONT SILENT WINGS 3 HIGH SPEED 140mm pwm and back pcie blank ports removed.


----------



## doyll

Thank you *learner-gr* for the test results.
Did you find NH-D15 performance to be about the same as ARO-M14? 

I haven't ran M14 against D15, but did test D15 against HR-02 and Macho Rev. B (& LGMRT) and found them same or better than D15 at same airflow / noise levels. Which makes sense as both have same 6x 6mm heatpipes in similar fin area. NH-D15 has NF-A15 1500rpm fans compared to M14 having TY-147A 1300rpm so at full speed D15's 200rpm higher speed will move a little more air giving slightly lower temp .. like maybe a degree or two .. but also louder. (LGMRT is better and quieter than D15 w/ no mods).

To me D15 is not worth the extra money. ARO-M14 is about $50 while NF-A15 is $100 (NH-D15S is $90). Way cheaper to just buy a higher speed fan, like TL-D14 [email protected] $18.42 or TL-D14L or TL-D15S @ $21.50 or TL-D14X 1800rpm @ $24.61 and have more cooling for less total expense than NH-D15 .. or NH-D15S which is $90. All prices from Amazon.com


----------



## learner-gr

To my eyes i think that the *NH-D15* is *a little better* than *ARO-M14*. Yes the price when buy new is almost double. In my case i bought them used. 
Here in Greece (to get the coolers in my hand with shipping) :
*ARO-M14* is about 55 euro new.
*NH-D15* is about 100 euro new.

It is certain that if someone buys *new *coolers it is not worth wise to buy the NH-D15 (except if you want the elite). The difference as you write is 2-3C difference in temperature (with the NH-D15 winning). When I will put the *SW3 *fan on, I will rewrite my impressions.

The good thing about the NH-D15 is that it has a larger heat dissipation surface and in fact in two plates.

The difference in these two coolers is mainly when the processor is working at max. There the temperature difference *maybe *3-5 degrees in favor of NH-D15.


Apart from Le GRAND MACHO RT which really looks very good (75 euros new here in Greece), Thermalright also has the* Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme Rev. B* with the most powerful *TY-143 *FAN that maybe marginally above the NH-D15 in performance. But the price here is 125 euros.


----------



## Dogzilla07

@learner-gr Thermalright Frost Commander 140 edges out NH-D15 in equal comparison (5x8mm heatpipes like the awesome old Phanteks, and a good fan). Though Deepcool Assassin III should still be the best at raw performance out of the box, as it's 7x8mm heatpipes, 2x140mm fans, and with a more massive heatsink.

Thermalright and Scythe (and Noctua to a lesser extent) though are the most technologically superior compatibility-wise, with offset and spaced out heatpipe placement, lower height, more cut-out for RAM, and similar. They are investing more in harder to do stuff.

















I also really like the design of the Iceberg IceSLEET X9 for TR4 with 9x6mm heatpipes (should be the first ?). More as a sign of things to come with AM5/LGA 1700/1800 and onwards xD (imagine a nice 7x8mm heatpipe cooler)


----------



## doyll

Buying used does make a big difference. 

The 2-3c difference is with fans at full speed on both coolers? As I explained, D15 fan/s run 200rpm faster than M14 fan. NF-A15 @ 1500rpm is rated 82.52cfm (24.6dBA) t​TY-147A @ 1300rpm rated 73.6cfm (21dBA). That's quite a difference in both noise and airflow!​
I assume you saying "larger heat dissipation surface and in fact in two plates." you mean 2 finpacks?

D15 does have more fin area because fins are closer together than in M14, but it's 2x finpacks are not much bigger than M14 finpack. I don't know if D15 having more fins packed closer together makes much difference. From what I've found testing coolers it's not how many fins, but how well their attachment moves heat from heatpipe to fin and to air.

Biggest advantage of D15 to me is being able to mount it on all CPUs and not being limited like ARO-M14 is to only AM4 applications. But I'm not the average user who gets a new cooler with each new build.  

There have been many review tests done of HR-02, Macho, Macho Rev. B, and other variants. They are show them being within a couple degrees of D15 even with it using noisier fans moving more air. 

Anyone thinking of using Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme needs to purchase at least 2x 140mm 2500rpm case fans to suply it with enough cool air to perform as intended. Even the best review sites neglected the fact SA IB-E Ex cooler needed case airflow doubled for system to supply cooler the huge 130cfm of airflow it uses. Even D15's A15 fans only flow 82cfm .. that's almost 50cfm less than TY-143 fans move at full speed. OH! And you need some good earplugs to muffle their noise!


----------



## learner-gr

Dogzilla07 said:


> @learner-gr Thermalright Frost Commander 140 edges out NH-D15 in equal comparison (5x8mm heatpipes like the awesome old Phanteks, and a good fan). Though *Deepcool Assassin III *should still be the best at raw performance out of the box, as it's 7x8mm heatpipes, 2x140mm fans, and with a more massive heatsink.
> 
> ........


Nice cooler. Its about 82 euros new here. Maybe if someone is buying new the best cooler for the money and performance. I didn't know it. Thanks anyway.


----------



## learner-gr

doyll said:


> Buying used does make a big difference.
> 
> The 2-3c difference is with fans at full speed on both coolers? As I explained, D15 fan/s run 200rpm faster than M14 fan. NF-A15 @ 1500rpm is rated 82.52cfm (24.6dBA) t​TY-147A @ 1300rpm rated 73.6cfm (21dBA). That's quite a difference in both noise and airflow!​
> I assume you saying "larger heat dissipation surface and in fact in two plates." you mean 2 finpacks? *Yes i mean 2 finpacks. Sorry about my english-american  It also looks more dense.*
> 
> D15 does have more fin area because fins are closer together than in M14, but it's 2x finpacks are not much bigger than M14 finpack. I don't know if D15 having more fins packed closer together makes much difference. From what I've found testing coolers it's not how many fins, but how well their attachment moves heat from heatpipe to fin and to air.
> 
> Biggest advantage of D15 to me is being able to mount it on all CPUs and not being limited like ARO-M14 is to only AM4 applications. But I'm not the average user who gets a new cooler with each new build.  *I bought the M14 used with my 1st ryzen set. After that i read about macho and the others. So, now with the D15 i will not worry about new mounts *
> 
> There have been many review tests done of HR-02, Macho, Macho Rev. B, and other variants. They are show them being within a couple degrees of D15 even with it using noisier fans moving more air.
> 
> Anyone thinking of using Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme *needs to purchase at least 2x 140mm 2500rpm* case fans to suply it with enough cool air to perform as intended. Even the best review sites neglected the fact SA IB-E Ex cooler needed case airflow *doubled* for system to supply cooler the huge 130cfm of airflow it uses. Even D15's A15 fans only flow 82cfm .. that's almost 50cfm less than TY-143 fans move at full speed. OH! And you need some good earplugs to muffle their noise! *BIG WISE TRUTH WORDS !!!*


----------



## doyll

Here are top and side view all scaled 2pxl:1mm to give an idea of overall size and footprint of a few. Pretty obvious D15 is biggest overall size with no better cooling.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Nice cooler. Its about 82 euros new here. Maybe if someone is buying new the best cooler for the money and performance. I didn't know it. Thanks anyway.


I'll be testing Frost Commander 140 soon. Just waiting for a couple more bits and pieces, then on to testing we go. Now sure how much will get done before holidays hit. 

I have learned some things with your ARO-M14 to Silent Loop to D15 progression. You seem to be of same mindset as me in that CLCs/ AIOs pump noise is problem hard to resolve. the few degrees difference isn't worth the extra expense and time needed to build a nice loop. Air does the job for use just fine. 

So will you now stay with D15 and sell others?


----------



## learner-gr

I'm also learning nice stuff here and especially from you doyll.
Before i didn't imagine that there is a lot for pc cooling.
The AIO and especially the PURELOOP 360 i used it makes sense if you work the cpu at 80% and above. Then the sound of the fans will cover the sound of the pump. Maybe in CLC the pumps are more silent but at idle when the fans are spinning at low rpms my PURELOOP 360 drives me nuts. Its like a coil whine.

At idle when i'm surfing and watching some videos i want a dead silent pc. And i can make it this only with air cooling so far. 

Yes at this moment i will keep the D15 and probably sell the others. And also after some days i will use one SW3 140 pwm High Speed i have with the MX5 paste on the D15.


----------



## doyll

Thanks, but I'm one of many here who help whenever we can.

Honestly, CLCs are too much of a compromise for me to consider them. It's not just their noise, but life as well as performance loss over time. With a good air cooler there is no performance loss, and only thing that can fail is fan which is easily replaced. Obviously TIM needs to be replace once in a great while .. and systems need a good cleaning every so often. Neither is a huge job .. nothing like draining, flushing, refilling, bleeding off air, topping up again, etc. involved with water cooling .. and that's needs to be done even with the best water cooling. 

You got be quiet! at low enough price you should be able to sell and easily break even if not make a little. As you got M14 new you will be selling for less, but D15 cost was low enough you are into top tier cooling at bargain prices.


----------



## doyll

Dogzilla07 said:


> @learner-gr Thermalright Frost Commander 140 edges out NH-D15 in equal comparison (5x8mm heatpipes like the awesome old Phanteks, and a good fan). Though Deepcool Assassin III should still be the best at raw performance out of the box, as it's 7x8mm heatpipes, 2x140mm fans, and with a more massive heatsink.
> 
> Thermalright and Scythe (and Noctua to a lesser extent) though are the most technologically superior compatibility-wise, with offset and spaced out heatpipe placement, lower height, more cut-out for RAM, and similar. They are investing more in harder to do stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also really like the design of the Iceberg IceSLEET X9 for TR4 with 9x6mm heatpipes (should be the first ?). More as a sign of things to come with AM5/LGA 1700/1800 and onwards xD (imagine a nice 7x8mm heatpipe cooler)


Had almost forgot about how good a cooler Phanteks PH-TC14PE is. First things I did on mine was remove crossbar thumb screw so center fan could set flush with top of cooler and change fans to TY-143 (because originals were variable voltage). It was red, so fans looked good on it. Second one was black with latest PH-F140HP II fans and works great! Later models use pressed fit fins while orginials had 2-piece soldered fins .. making older ones better .. but think they are NLA now anyway. 

Noctua has been riding on it's rep for many years. Their NF-A12x25 which is quite good .. but not as good Gentle Typhoons that while being harder to find are still much lower priced. Their NH-U12A is a good cooler, but not much if any better than Ultra 120 Extreme is with similar fan/s and Thermalright released it like 14 years ago. Their new passive cooler is almost a joke. But they do have the best customer support out there!

I think Frost Commander 140 is one of the best out there now. Definitely better than D15 or even PH-TC14PE .. will match or beat Fuma II, not sure about Le Grand Macho RT . My guess is TRUE Spirit 140 Power 2 it's 6x 8mm heatpipes will still be king. It's biggest problem is it's convex base not mating well to AMD, and a quick lap solves that problem. 

Will be interesting to se how Iceberg IceSLEET X9 does. It's enclosed housing is kinda ugly, but no big deal. I do see it's use of dedicated fans as being problematic, possibly a game thrower to people like me.


----------



## Dogzilla07

doyll said:


> Phanteks PH-TC14PE


If Phanteks comes out with a 6x8mm heatpipe (or maybe even 7 big ones xD) revision with their new T30-140 fans, that's gonna shake things up. the Iceberg with 9 heatpipes is only available for AMD Threadripper, for LGA 1200/1700 and AM4 they only go with 7 heatpipes, unfortunately. Their fans remind me of old Akasa stuff, maybe same designers ?
Here's one when Akasa offered a 8 heatpipe monster.










Hopefully, MSI and Gigabyte are working on new, better versions of their 8mm and 10mm heatpipe coolers as well.


----------



## Elrick

Dogzilla07 said:


> Hopefully, MSI and Gigabyte are working on new, better versions of their 8mm and 10mm heatpipe coolers as well.


Looking forward to seeing that as well.

These future Air Coolers shall be needed as both parties have decided to go full ****ushima* on their CPU designs, churning out loads of heat and power usage. Would even be surprised if Air Cooling has reached its limit when it comes to cooling such furnaces.

Suppose the AIO field gets even larger and watch *Asetek* expand further everywhere, making loads of money  .


----------



## Shenhua

Elrick said:


> Looking forward to seeing that as well.
> 
> These future Air Coolers shall be needed as both parties have decided to go full ****ushima* on their CPU designs, churning out loads of heat and power usage. Would even be surprised if Air Cooling has reached its limit when it comes to cooling such furnaces.
> 
> Suppose the AIO field gets even larger and watch *Asetek* expand further everywhere, making loads of money  .


That's not entirely true. I just got a 5900x, and this CPU is hot even at low loads and high efficiency. The problem doesnt really come from high power usage, but the impossibility to draw the heat out. High thermal density is killing air cooling, not high power usage.

This is a post with some considerations i made a few days ago, after 2-3 weeks of playing with a 5900x.

"......... and from the perspective of cooling there are many cons.

I always lived with the idea, that having the CPU with fixed frequency, when running a program or game, it would swap through both dies and all the cores, just like having a single chiplet, but NO, not even close.
It opens in one of the chiplets and does not change, so you have a difference between both dies of 15ºC+, with the CPU hitting 60ºC with a load that shouldnt go above 50ºC
The only moment when the thermal density of the 7nm does not show up, it is with 100% load at max 160w-180w, or when the load is equivalent or similar throughout the CPU ......which takes me to the following:

Scenarios in which air cooling is equivalent to a liquid cooler (every type) are very few and far in between, and sadly from here on things will be worst with the decreasing of the node.
a) a liquid always absorbs more rapidly the heat.
b) usually liquid coolers have more thermal capacity.
....even if liquid cooling is worst at releasing the heat, it doesn't matter. You can just use high RPM and high static pressure fans when the load is high enough to make a 240-360 sweat, which mostly happen in stress tests. Even more, this CPU is so damn powerful, that if you use it for mundane tasks, with the highest load being gaming+streaming or editing, stock or slightly tweaked and left on auto, it sips power. You will barely hit the 120-140w mark........ with the CPU usually staying more in the 70 to 100w range.
Only as a curiosity, in auto, cinebench single core results in 88w and 66ºC, and the multicore test results in 134w and 64ºC ...... 😂😅 .......... already knew it was ridiculous, but i never thought it would be by so much.........

2. The reality is, that we're going to have to accept high temps ........... even with liquid cooling ......... It is better for removing heat from the CPU, but it can only do so much....... that capacity is limited ........ Screenshot, and is far from being a real solution....., especially with all the CONs AIO bring to the table.. Not only that, but now with graphics that eat 300w+ as if nothing, an AIO mounted in the top of the case as an exhaust, it's a recipe for disaster. Either you force a lot of air volume, with high RPM and many case fans, or you will see 6-10ºC or even higher temps.......... You can mount it in the front, but it's far from being ideal from longevity perspective.

3. The auto mode of the ryzens is an enormous pain in the a**. It doesnt matter what you're cooling it with, it's gonna keep aiming for the 70ºC mark.........
I tried doing a bit of undervolting with the CPU in AUTO. IMPOSSIBLE! You drop the voltage and it keeps boosting, If it can not boost more, because it hits the max frequency, it's gonna boost for more time. If you raise up the voltage, it's gonna boost less, but keeps ending in the 70-80ºC zone.........

4. High RPM in the fans do not scale well (to not say it doesnt really do anything, which is expected after all), since the bottleneck is not in dissipating the heat, but sucking it out.

5. With a d15 and a high airflow setup i find impossible to reach the limits of a 5900x and especially testing it for stability................. From 160w to 225w, there's a jump of 25ºC .............from 70-72ºC to 96ºC and those 225w are only 1.2v en prime95 small fft. That's where the cooler tops out despite being able to cool 250w+ on something like a 5650x (thermal density is a bit***)............. Something like a arctic 360-420, will most likely top out at 40-50w higher over the 225w noctua can do, which is close to the limit of 24/7 OC but stress testing with 260-280w (That would be a 4.6ghz OC with 1.25v....) even with a cooler like that it will hit high 80s, low 90s, and you have no idea if your CPU crashes because of voltage or high temps..........
Although 1.25v and 4.6ghz for normal use, gives excellent temperatures on air for task up to the level of dificulty of a cinebench multicore, you simply cannot do stress testing heavy enough to ensure stability and longevity."


----------



## Chopsticks24

Hi,

I need some help with the fan/cpu cooler configuration in a lian li lancool ii mesh rgb.
I can basically get the scythe fuma 2, dark rock pro 4 or the arctic freezer ii 280 for the same price, I am leaning towards the arctic freezer ii 280 as as i like the aesthetic more.
My question is if I should/could mount it at the front using the 3 120mm case fans as push and the 2 140mm aio cooler fans as pull, or should I try something else ?

Edit: I forgot to mention, the cpu is a i7-12700kf


----------



## doyll

I believe Fuma 2 is a little better thand Dark Rock Pro 4 .. slightly lower temp and noise. Don't know where you are but if you are in USA you can get Thermalright on Amazon now. Their Frost Commander 140 priced at $61.86 is significantly better than either of your listed air coolers. 








Amazon.com: Thermalright Frost Commander 140 CPU Air Cooler, 5x8mm Heat Pipes, TL-D14X 140mm TL-C12PRO 120mm PWM Fan, AGHP Technology, for AMD AM4/Intel 115X/1200/2066 : Electronics


Buy Thermalright Frost Commander 140 CPU Air Cooler, 5x8mm Heat Pipes, TL-D14X 140mm TL-C12PRO 120mm PWM Fan, AGHP Technology, for AMD AM4/Intel 115X/1200/2066: CPU Cooling Fans - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





For buyers elsewhere AliExpress has Frost Commander 140. They also sell other Thermalright products, FC140 is best one at the moment.




__





FC140 - Buy FC140 with free shipping on AliExpress


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9.96US $ 29% OFF|Thermalright FC140 BLACK 5X8mmAGHP heat pipe black coating reflow soldering radiator 2 times dynamic balance fan S FDB bearing|Fans & Cooling| - AliExpress


----------



## Chopsticks24

I am in Portugal.
The coolers I mentioned I can get for 65-67 euros.
I can get the thermalright from Amazon but Will cost me 80 euros, is it still worth ?


----------



## D-EJ915

Chopsticks24 said:


> I am in Portugal.
> The coolers I mentioned I can get for 65-67 euros.
> I can get the thermalright from Amazon but Will cost me 80 euros, is it still worth ?


Never used the dark rock pro but the 280 Arctic cooler is very good, it should give the best performance but with most noise plus having a pump so depends on what you want from the system but it should be the best cooling wise.


----------



## Elrick

D-EJ915 said:


> Never used the dark rock pro but the 280 Arctic cooler is very good, it should give the best performance but with most noise plus having a pump so depends on what you want from the system but it should be the best cooling wise.


Also have several Arctic 280 coolers in various Intel and AMD setups. All are perfectly SILENT during operation.

As I am NOT overclocking any hardware, the Arctic AIOs all function perfectly as designed, completely quiet like there is nothing there at all. That is what you want in any room, a quiet PC that functions as intended without much noise aside from the intake fans of your prescribed case.


----------



## doyll

Chopsticks24 said:


> I am in Portugal.
> The coolers I mentioned I can get for 65-67 euros.
> I can get the thermalright from Amazon but Will cost me 80 euros, is it still worth ?


Yes, based on performance my mate is getting.
When I look it up "TC140" on AliExpress with VPN the lowest price is:
€ 64,41 Price including VAT. Normal price is € 90,72 - 29% = € 64,41 including VAT​57.15US $ 29% de desconto|Thermalright fc140 heatpipe twin towers aghp heatpipe cpu cooler C12PRO G + d14x ventiladores de refrigeração do computador para lga115x lga2011 am4|Ventiladores e resfriadores| - AliExpress"sku_id"%3A"12000024257511686"%7D​There are many other listings, but that is cheapest. Try link above, it might work for you too.
Edit: Just checked link above and way down at bottom of page it says:​*Shipping: €26.41*​From China to Portugal via Cainiao Standard For Special Goods​Delivery Estimate: Feb 24​So that's a bad deal both price and delivery time.​
In case you are interested in more information about Frost Commander 140 (FC140), here is link to mate's arrival and testing of FC140. Post #55 is arrival and unboxing. Installation and testing posts are scattered in rest of thread:








Thermalright Frost Commander 140


I am really eager to see, whether the base is either convex, concave or just plain defect like in the TSP140 thread.




www.overclock.net


----------



## Chopsticks24

Hey guys,

I was gonna get the Thermalright from amazon but unfortunately I have just discovered I must get the cooler from a specific store and they dont have a lot of variety, they dont even sell any of the coolers mentioned before.

My choice has been narrowed down between a Lian li galahad 240 (100 euros) and the 360 version (120 euros), the difference in price is just 20 euros, so I am tempted to go for the 360 version.
I would just like to know how to correctly config the fans for better cooling possible, should I go for a push pull config with no exhaust or with exhaust (I have 2 available meshify c case fans), or forget the push pull, and just mount the aio with its 3 fans and then add 2 fans as top exhaust ?

OR just save 20 euros and go for the 240 ?


----------



## doyll

Chopsticks24 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I was gonna get the Thermalright from amazon but unfortunately I have just discovered I must get the cooler from a specific store and they dont have a lot of variety, they dont even sell any of the coolers mentioned before.
> 
> My choice has been narrowed down between a Lian li galahad 240 (100 euros) and the 360 version (120 euros), the difference in price is just 20 euros, so I am tempted to go for the 360 version.
> I would just like to know how to correctly config the fans for better cooling possible, should I go for a push pull config with no exhaust or with exhaust (I have 2 available meshify c case fans), or forget the push pull, and just mount the aio with its 3 fans and then add 2 fans as top exhaust ?
> 
> OR just save 20 euros and go for the 240 ?


We need to know what case you have to be able to recommend how to set it up for radiator cooling. 

Personally I don't like AIO/CLC cooling. They wear out in 2-5 years while air coolers last almost forever w/ fan replacement after 5+ years. AIO performance deteriorates over time while 10-15 year old air coolers still cool as well as brand new one .. only fans wear out. Most AIOs have pump noise. 

If you do go with AIO make sure you mount radiator above CPU or at least so hose end of radiator is below pump (usually pump is in CPU waterblock). 360 will have more cooling ability than 240.


----------



## Chopsticks24

doyll said:


> We need to know what case you have to be able to recommend how to set it up for radiator cooling.
> 
> Personally I don't like AIO/CLC cooling. They wear out in 2-5 years while air coolers last almost forever w/ fan replacement after 5+ years. AIO performance deteriorates over time while 10-15 year old air coolers still cool as well as brand new one .. only fans wear out. Most AIOs have pump noise.
> 
> If you do go with AIO make sure you mount radiator above CPU or at least so hose end of radiator is below pump (usually pump is in CPU waterblock). 360 will have more cooling ability than 240.


The case I will be using is the lian li lancool ii mesh rgb
Yes I know that an air cooler will almost always outlive an aio/clc, I would just like to try something different (I already have another PC with a thermalright ts140), and I like the cleaner look that the aio gives.

Honestly the only comparable air coolers this store has are the noctua dh15 (100 euros) and the deepcool assassin iii (75 euros), they dont have much else.


----------



## doyll

Chopsticks24 said:


> The case I will be using is the lian li lancool ii mesh rgb
> Yes I know that an air cooler will almost always outlive an aio/clc, I would just like to try something different (I already have another PC with a thermalright ts140), and I like the cleaner look that the aio gives.
> 
> Honestly the only comparable air coolers this store has are the noctua dh15 (100 euros) and the deepcool assassin iii (75 euros), they dont have much else.


No almost about it. Air cooling will always outlive AIO/CLC. As for cleaner look, many users think long universal lengh hoses look like ugly black snakes. 

NH-D15 is good but like you say expensive, but same price as Galahad 240 and 20 less than 360. 

Here is some data to give you an idea of how your TRUE Spirit 140 sounds compared to D15 and Galahad 240 / 360.
TRUE Spirit 140 at 50% is 33dBA, @ 100% is 38dBA​NH-D15 is 36dBA, @ 100% is 43dBA​Galahad 240 is 40dBA, at 100% is screaming 50dBA​Another test
NH-D15 is 30dBA at 64c​Galahad 360 is 60dBA at 59.6c.​
All above dBA were measured with meter 30cm from source. 

Keep in mind NH-D15 and Assassin III will be cooling as well in 2-4 years as new while Galahad will be gradually have less and less ability. 

If you go Galahad, 240 will fit in top (as exhaust). Fill front with intake fans and block all opening not covered by these intake fans so air they move into case cannot leak around in front again and end up going in circles instead of thru case. 360 would have to be front mounted and hoses are not long enough for it to fit in front with hoses at bottom of radiator, so would have to be mounted as in image below. Problem with this position is as air collects at highest point eventually line from rad to CPU will start sucking air into pump and burn it out. 









240 will fit in top but won't cool as well as D15 at same noise level. Even 360 is only as good as D15 at same noise level.


----------



## Memmento Mori

Just an Idea, as i dont know what kind of a CPU you have but im using TR - TS-140P on a 10900K and more than happy with it....









Thermalright 100700543 True Spirit 140 Power, High End CPU-Kühler Für Intel Und AMD CPUs, 6X 8 mm Heatpipes, TY 147 PWM-Lüfter: Amazon.de: Computer & Zubehör


Thermalright 100700543 True Spirit 140 Power, High End CPU-Kühler Für Intel Und AMD CPUs, 6X 8 mm Heatpipes, TY 147 PWM-Lüfter (300-1.300 U/Min, 15-21 dBA, 28,7-125 m³/h) - Kostenloser Versand ab 29€. Jetzt bei Amazon.de bestellen!



www.amazon.de





and for 52 EUR? its like a no brainer.... 

BTW had an 280mm CLC AIO from corsair for 3 or 4 years and it was not worth it, the thermalright LGMRT had outperformed it on a 6600K with OC 4,7Ghz ... cooler and quitter..


----------



## doyll

What*Memmento Mori* said. I should have mentioned it to *Chopsticks24, *If he can get it in Portugal, TRUE Spirit 140 Power is if the very best cooler out there one of the very best made even better because it's priced so much lower than others with similar cooling. When we tested in years ago it bested NH-D14 by several degrees .. and D14 is as good if not slightly better than D15 when both are using same fans .. and TRUE Spirit 140 Power uses a very quiet 1300rpm fan doing it all! If anyone is interested, I can post link to more about it.


----------



## learner-gr

a) Yes if you don't mind send the link.
b) Doyll as i wrote before i use now one NH-D15 and i'm happy with it.
Is there any good idea to get on FC140 for better cooling or its better to stay with the NH-D15?


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> a) Yes if you don't mind send the link.
> b) Doyll as i wrote before i use now one NH-D15 and i'm happy with it.
> Is there any good idea to get on FC140 for better cooling or its better to stay with the NH-D15?


I think reference to TRUE Spirit 140 Power was for Chopstiicks24. 

Difference between NH-D15 and TRUE Spirit 140 Power is minimal .. but we did see that difference on several test systems. Running TRUE Spirit 140 Power and NH-D14 (D15 performs same with same fans) on i7 920 @ 4.3GHz using TY:-143 fan/s at1200rpm (same airflow as TY-147A @ 1200rpm) TS140P was only 0.9c cooler than D14. Same 0.9c difference with 1x or 2x fans at 2500rpm. These tests were done in case built systems monitoring intake air temp to be sure air was same temp entering both coolers during tests.


----------



## learner-gr

What's your opinion about my second question?
Is there any good idea to get on FC140 for better cooling or its better to stay with the NH-D15?


The question is also for everyone who tested the Thermalright FC140.


----------



## Memmento Mori

to be honest, until you are not a passionate collector or an passionate tester then it makes no sense at all.... if you would have an bad cooler and looking for a top performer i would understand but as you already have an good cooler  rather inwest in a delid and relid..... makes a bigger impact...


----------



## Chopsticks24

doyll said:


> What*Memmento Mori* said. I should have mentioned it to *Chopsticks24, *If he can get it in Portugal, TRUE Spirit 140 Power is if the very best cooler out there one of the very best made even better because it's priced so much lower than others with similar cooling. When we tested in years ago it bested NH-D14 by several degrees .. and D14 is as good if not slightly better than D15 when both are using same fans .. and TRUE Spirit 140 Power uses a very quiet 1300rpm fan doing it all! If anyone is interested, I can post link to more about it.


Hey thanks everyone for the help.
I would buy it if this specific store had it for sale, unfortunately they dont sell any thermalright products.
After seeing several reviews I ended up getting the noctua because it is quieter than the deepcool, It was expensive but I hope to use it for several years to come.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> What's your opinion about my second question?
> Is there any good idea to get on FC140 for better cooling or its better to stay with the NH-D15?
> 
> 
> The question is also for everyone who tested the Thermalright FC140.


What Memmento Mori said.
I use 10-15 different coolers a year. I have 5 coolers I'm working with at this time (Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme Rev. 4 Black, Silver Soul 130, Frost Commander 140, SE-225 XT Black and SE-226 XT Black) and even more new fans (Phanteks T30, Thermalright TL-C12 Pro-G, TL-B12 Extrem, TL-D12B, TL-D14X, TL-C14, etc). I also have new Phanteks Eclipse P500A case, 3x 50x95x1.5mm Valor Odin thermal pad sheets for RTX 3090 that took too long getting to me and I sold RTX 3090. I also have 12.8g tube of Thermalright TF8 thermal paste rated 13.8W/mk (most TIM is in 5.3-8.5W/mk range). So if I had never owned and used TRUE Spirit 140 Power I would get it. But I am not you, and your likes and dislikes are different from mine. This is your decision to make. If you it's worth spending another € 50-55 to see if your CPU temp be 1c (definitely not 2c) at same noise level as you now have, then do it. If it's not worth spending another € 50-55 then don't do it. 



Chopsticks24 said:


> Hey thanks everyone for the help.
> I would buy it if this specific store had it for sale, unfortunately they dont sell any thermalright products.
> After seeing several reviews I ended up getting the noctua because it is quieter than the deepcool, It was expensive but I hope to use it for several years to come.


For year of use Noctua is best. While there are several other companies selling coolers just as good and a few better, Noctua's customer support is the best out there. Noctua gives their cooler owners free CPU mount upgrades for as long as you have your cooler. I know a person with NH-D14 they got about 12 years ago who Noctua just send new mount for Alder Lake LGA 1700. Noctua has been doing this sense 2006. Now with some coolers being black, they have a black version for those owners. I have one of their fans start leaking and emailed them about it. Same day they answered me asking for my address and would I please break a blade out of bad fan and send a pic as proof. I emailed back that I was still using and they replied they would send new fan, than I could break old one and send pic. Can't get better support than that.


----------



## Melcar

Guys, guys, GUYS. Something weird going on at Amazon with Thermalright. Just bought a pair of TL-B12s for $12 each. For some reason a few of Thermalright products have hefty discounts. The TL-C12 PROs are $11 and the TL-C14Xs at $13. That's nuts. Heatsinks seem to not have a price discount.
If it weren't for the cheap plastic Thermalrigh is apparently using for the fan enclosures, all these fans would be perfect.
TL-D14 for $11. Oh my. Hopefully their heatsinks also get discounts like these.


----------



## D-EJ915

Melcar said:


> Guys, guys, GUYS. Something weird going on at Amazon with Thermalright. Just bought a pair of TL-B12s for $12 each. For some reason a few of Thermalright products have hefty discounts. The TL-C12 PROs are $11 and the TL-C14Xs at $13. That's nuts. Heatsinks seem to not have a price discount.
> If it weren't for the cheap plastic Thermalrigh is apparently using for the fan enclosures, all these fans would be perfect.
> TL-D14 for $11. Oh my. Hopefully their heatsinks also get discounts like these.


Yeah they seem to put stuff on sale a lot so it is worthwhile to put in wish list and then buy when the price goes down, for black friday weekend everything was like 10 dollars off.


----------



## doyll

Thermalright had 3 Thermalright seller names on Amazon; Thermalright, Thermalright 2 and Thermalright 3. No idea why.


----------



## Melcar

Gamers Nexus just got themselves a custom made fan tester.


----------



## doyll

Finally! Someone testing with same hi-tech equipment as manufacturers use! Not only will we can see how independent results compares to industry's results but hopefully have data over entire speed range, not just full speed data.

Thanks Melcar


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Finally! Someone testing with same hi-tech equipment as manufacturers use! Not only will we can see how independent results compares to industry's results but hopefully have data over entire speed range, not just full speed data.
> 
> Thanks Melcar


The best part of the video was watching a bunch of geeks trying to unload large equipment off a pallet. 🤣


----------



## doyll

ciarlatano said:


> The best part of the video was watching a bunch of geeks trying to unload large equipment off a pallet. 🤣


LOL I was thinking similar while I skipped through it.


----------



## TeslaHUN




----------



## Melcar

Here is a crazy idea. Cases should have side and bottom fans near the PCI expansion area.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Melcar said:


> Here is a crazy idea. Cases should have side and bottom fans near the PCI expansion area.


No, cases should look like this :





Not dumping the VGA heat to the side panel/ Tglass like every modern case does.


----------



## doyll

Please remove talking head link. 
I know his idiotic videos draw others of similar mind like flies to poo, but I don't think anyone with an IQ over 50 watches them. 



Melcar said:


> Here is a crazy idea. Cases should have side and bottom fans near the PCI expansion area.


Preaching to the choir. I'm sure you've seen me post "remove all unused PCIe back slot covers to improve front to back airflow around GPU so cooler air can reach it, thus cooling better with less noise" at least once.


----------



## learner-gr

Hi to all !!!
Yesterday i put an *5800x *on my system to replace an 3700x.

My comments so far:
Quite a difference in the benchmarks as well as in video editing.
Much more *nervous *in temperature up and downs.
*Higher *maximum temperatures

My system:
Motherboard: crosshair viii dark hero
Cpu cooler : Noctua NH-D15
case : ENTHOO PRO M
2 FRONT SILENT WINGS 3 HIGH SPEED 140mm fans


At *18c *room temperature and 60% humidity i have about 30C idle.
When i ran the OCCT for 6 minutes i got *76c *cpu, *89,5c*  for CPU CCD1,* 86,9c* for CPU DIE and *87,4* for CPU (Tctl/Tdie).


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Hi to all !!!
> Yesterday i put an *5800x *on my system to replace an 3700x.
> 
> My comments so far:
> Quite a difference in the benchmarks as well as in video editing.
> Much more *nervous *in temperature up and downs.
> *Higher *maximum temperatures
> 
> My system:
> Motherboard: crosshair viii dark hero
> case : ENTHOO PRO M
> 2 FRONT SILENT WINGS 3 HIGH SPEED 140mm fans
> 
> 
> At *18c *room temperature and 60% humidity i have about 30C idle.
> When i ran the OCCT for 6 minutes i got *76c *cpu, *89,5c*  for CPU CCD1,* 86,9c* for CPU DIE and *87,4* for CPU (Tctl/Tdie).


While your temps are quite warm they are typical and expectedfor full load conditions:
_"AMD’s Robert Hallock has clarified that temperatures up to 90C for the higher-end Zen 3 based Ryzen 7 and 9 parts are quite normal, and won’t affect the life-cycle of the chip. Replying to a Redditor, Hallock said that AMD views temperatures up to 90C (for the 5800X/5900X/5950X) as typical and by design for full load conditions."_​*"Q. *There have been many posts about thermals for these chips and I’ve read a few of your responses to them, as well as this graphic. Basically what you are telling us is that _we have to change our understanding of what is “good” and “undesirable”_ when it comes to CPU temps for Zen 3, right? Cause I see you repeating the same info about how 60-90C is expected(i.e., where 78C may have been the top range, 90C now is, hence your statements about extra thermal headroom) and yet people keep freaking out because of what they have been used to, whether it’s from Zen 2 or team blue?​​*RH:* Yes. I want to be clear with everyone that AMD views temps up to 90C (5800X/5900X/5950X) and 95C (5600X) as *typical and by design* for full load conditions. Having a higher maximum temperature supported by the silicon and firmware allows the CPU to pursue higher and longer boost performance before the algorithm pulls back for thermal reasons.​​Is it the same as Zen 2 or our competitor? No. But that doesn’t mean something is “wrong.” These parts are running exactly as-designed, producing the performance results we intend."​​_"Apparently, the Zen 3 silicon and firmware allow the CPU to reach these temps to pursue higher and higher boost clocks and for longer durations extracting every ounce of performance from the chip._​​_Interestingly, Hallock also said that the highest temp for the hex-core 5600X is 95C before it starts throttling. However, in our testing, it barely crossed 70 degrees in even the most taxing loads._​​_Temps in the 80-90C for the 12-16 core parts are quite expected, but for a hex-core part, you just shouldn’t get to that point unless you’re running multiple instances of Furmark."_​
Source:








Max Safe Temperature for AMD Ryzen 5000 CPUs? | Hardware Times


AMD’s Robert Hallock has clarified that temperatures up to 90C for the higher-end Zen 3 based Ryzen 7 and 9 parts are quite normal, and won’t affect the life-cycle of the chip. Replying to a Redditor, Hallock said that AMD views temperatures up to 90C (for the 5800X/5900X/5950X) as typical and...



www.hardwaretimes.com


----------



## learner-gr

Have a happy and blessed new year!!!
I hope you have the best benchmarks on computers and especially in your lives!


----------



## GenkiM

Hi doyll :0)

I've been reading your thread with great interest and wanted to ask you a couple of questions?

Firstly: you tested the Akasa Viper (I use Viper R's) but you didn't use them? I'm wondering what made you choose the Thermalrights over the Vipers? Was it an aesthetic choice, or more to do with performance?

(FYI, Akasa recently released a new fan design, in two sku's : The Otto SC12 & SF12. They say they're based on automotive industry fans.  )

Secondly: I was wondering if you could critique or comment on my fan arrangement and offer some suggestions or advice? I'm not sure if I really need all of them and wouldn't mind removing a few to try and reduce noise. Also, not sure about having two fans at ninety-degree angles to each other; do you think they might conflict with each other?

Here's my build:
(That's not a second fan beside the rear extractor, the motherboard just has a very reflective IO cover.)








The AIO radiator is positioned closer to the centre of the case than to the rear of the case, because this motherboard's DIMM slots are closer than average to the top of the board, and so I wouldn't have been able to seat the radiator without moving it forward to take advantage of the gap the shape of the circular fan housings leave. In other words, I was literally only able to seat the radiator because the fans don't have corners for the DIMMs to obstruct...

...the Viper R's, having a 12cm fan case mounting configuration, are fastened to the 280mm AIO radiator with zip-ties.


Viper R's are 145mm fans, so three don't fit into the front of the Fractal Meshify II, meaning I had to stagger them in an offset configuration, regrettably with a little overlap.








I'm concerned that having two fans at a ninety-degree angle to each other might cause conflicting airflow. Is that something you could shed some light on?


There are an additional two Viper R's in the floor of the case and a Viper R lashed to the PSU shroud, to blow air underneath the GPU.










The AIO pump is seated upside down, to get the tubing out of the way, so as to allow room to seat the RAM cooling fan.








The RAM cooling fan is sitting on top of some very thick thermal conductive pad (Edit: which I've since removed as I was concerned that once it became heat-saturated it might turn into an insulator).

Although I always used to do so, at some point along the way I stopped removing IO shields from my builds; but after finding this thread I've since removed them and will continue to do so in future. I also want to remove all of the fan grilles that are obstructing the fans and causing noise. I may potentially remove the fan shroud entirely; although will probably remove it, use a nibbler to cut the top out of it (leaving just a rim) and reseat it with screws...I like the aesthetic of the Meshify II's PSU shroud, when viewed side-on, but I think they're really awkward to build around and disruptive to airflow.








If I remove the grilles I'll probably also remove the central strut in the vertical IO panel (but probably leave the main strut so as to help maintain the case's structural strength).

So...what do you think? Do you think there might be a more efficient configuration...?...and could I get away with removing a couple of fans to reduce noise?

Are there suggestions you could make...?...or advice you could give?

Thanks. :0)

P.S. The Akasa Viper R fan specs:

Dimensions: 145 X 145 X 25mm
Bearing: HDB (Hydro Dynamic Bearing)
Speed: 600-1600 RPM
Max airflow: 109.55 CFM
Sound level: 7-21.7 dB(A)
Max static air pressure: 2.91 mm-H2O

I have them set so that they basically run at their minimum speed, and they don't really ever need to ramp up because of how efficient they are and how many of them there are. But I do think they might be a bit overkill, and although they're not loud (game audio masks their sound) they're not what I'd call silent?


----------



## doyll

I used Akasa Viper 10-12 years ago. I've used so many fans sense then it's hard to remember much about them. I changed from Vipers to TY-140 and so many more sense then. I use only a few fans placed strategically to created smooth through case airflow. You use lots of fans placed to flow air to each area. My guess is your way works but requires more fans to do it. 
Yes, you probably have overkill. 
What is temp change with fan over RAM unplugged? 
What is temp change with fan in front of GPU unplugged? 
What is temp change with rear exhaust unplugged?
What is temp change with bottom intake near PSU unplugged?


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> I used Akasa Viper 10-12 years ago. I've used so many fans sense then it's hard to remember much about them. I changed from Vipers to TY-140 and so many more sense then. I use only a few fans placed strategically to created smooth through case airflow. You use lots of fans placed to flow air to each area. My guess is your way works but requires more fans to do it.
> Yes, you probably have overkill.
> What is temp change with fan over RAM unplugged?
> What is temp change with fan in front of GPU unplugged?
> What is temp change with rear exhaust unplugged?
> What is temp change with bottom intake near PSU unplugged?


 Hey dude! :0)

Thanks so much for responding. Offhand, I don't know, but I'll try and do some tests today and get the answers for you. :0)

It'll probably take me a while as I've got to pop out, but I'll get it done and update the thread.


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> Hey dude! :0)
> 
> Thanks so much for responding. Offhand, I don't know, but I'll try and do some tests today and get the answers for you. :0)
> 
> It'll probably take me a while as I've got to pop out, but I'll get it done and update the thread.


Only do it if you want to experiment and play. 
5th post this thread shows how I monitor air temp in airflow.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> Only do it if you want to experiment and play.
> 5th post this thread shows how I monitor air temp in airflow.


Awesome, thanks 

And yeah, definitely want to :0)

It'll be cool to get some input/help/advice/feedback. 

Have you ever used incense to track airflow? I'm thinking of picking some up...or maybe there's something more appropriate that you know of?


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> Awesome, thanks
> 
> And yeah, definitely want to :0)
> 
> It'll be cool to get some input/help/advice/feedback.
> 
> Have you ever used incense to track airflow? I'm thinking of picking some up...or maybe there's something more appropriate that you know of?


Incense sticks work pretty well. I usually use 2 or 3 to get more smoke. Problem with trying to track airflow is turbulence mixes smoke with more air making it harder to see, so it's hard to track flow more than a few inches.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Akasa Viper is a really powerful fan,especially when they are against some resistance (fins /grills etc) ,i had some in past . I'm a bit suprised many ppl dont know them . In my opinion they are one of the best fans even on today's market. 
I used them on radiator







Even on VGA :







But they are too powerful for case fans , i prefer the Akasa Apache for that . Too bad they are really hard to find today Apache is still in my top 3 favorite after TY147A / BQ SW3.


----------



## ciarlatano

TeslaHUN said:


> Akasa Viper is a really powerful fan,especially when they are against some resistance (fins /grills etc) ,i had some in past . I'm a bit suprised many ppl dont know them . In my opinion they are one of the best fans even on today's market.
> I used them on radiator
> View attachment 2540630
> 
> Even on VGA :
> View attachment 2540631
> 
> But they are too powerful for case fans , i prefer the Akasa Apache for that . Too bad they are really hard to find today Apache is still in my top 3 favorite after TY147A / BQ SW3.


One of the issues with people not knowing Akasa is that there presence and availability in North America has been very subdued. Since a lot of the larger review sites operate out of NA, the word doesn't get out.


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Akasa Viper is a really powerful fan,especially when they are against some resistance (fins /grills etc) ,i had some in past . I'm a bit suprised many ppl dont know them . In my opinion they are one of the best fans even on today's market.
> I used them on radiator
> View attachment 2540630
> 
> Even on VGA :
> View attachment 2540631
> 
> But they are too powerful for case fans , i prefer the Akasa Apache for that . Too bad they are really hard to find today Apache is still in my top 3 favorite after TY147A / BQ SW3.


The impeller design used by Thermalright's TY-140 is one of the best there is for 140mm fans. I started using TY-140 about 11 years ago (still have some in use). Newer versions like TY-143, TY-147, TY-147a, TY-147B, TY-143 SQ, TY-147ASQ, TY-127, etc. all performing very well. Now 

The impeller design used by Nidec group company Servo D1225C 1450, 1850 & 2150rpm fans commonly known as Gentle Typhoon is best design I know of for 120mm fans. Now with better / stronger impeller materials allowing closer tolerances between tip of impeller and housing make them even better. This is what makes Phanteks T30 and Noctua NF-A12x25 so good. Thermalright is also using GT impeller design in several fans, both 120mm and 140mm. They include TL-C9, TL-D12B, TL-C14X, TL-D14X, TL-C12015, TL-B12, TL-C12 Pro, TL-D14L RGB, etc. all performing very well. 



ciarlatano said:


> One of the issues with people not knowing Akasa is that there presence and availability in North America has been very subdued. Since a lot of the larger review sites operate out of NA, the word doesn't get out.


Indeed. I would like to see how the Akasa impeller design performs compared to GTs and others .. as well as Thermairght TY-14x impeller and newer 140mm GT style impeller. 

Sorry for using brand names for impeller design. I do not know what the scientific name is for these impeller designs. If anyone knows their proper names please tell us.


----------



## Melcar

That impeller used on Akasa fans is also used on some older fans more common in American markets, like the old CM Blademasters, which were decent fans back in the day if a bit loud (still my favorite CM fans to date). 

Sent from my Xiaomi Redmi 9C using Tapatalk


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> Incense sticks work pretty well. I usually use 2 or 3 to get more smoke. Problem with trying to track airflow is turbulence mixes smoke with more air making it harder to see, so it's hard to track flow more than a few inches.


 Oh no, really? That's a shame, I thought it'd be more useful...?...I might give it a try anyway?



TeslaHUN said:


> Akasa Viper is a really powerful fan,especially when they are against some resistance (fins /grills etc) ,i had some in past . I'm a bit suprised many ppl dont know them . In my opinion they are one of the best fans even on today's market.
> 
> I used them on radiator
> 
> 
> 
> Even on VGA :
> 
> 
> 
> But they are too powerful for case fans , i prefer the Akasa Apache for that . Too bad they are really hard to find today Apache is still in my top 3 favorite after TY147A / BQ SW3.


Yeah, regular vipers are super-powerful and probably a good overclocker's radiator fan. The ones I have are Viper R's, which start off at 600 RPM and 7dB(A), so they're much better as case fans. Unfortunately, I think they just went out of production? Maybe not officially, but I think the supply basically ran out. Maybe when the supply chain issues are resolved they might start producing them again, but who knows.



ciarlatano said:


> One of the issues with people not knowing Akasa is that there presence and availability in North America has been very subdued. Since a lot of the larger review sites operate out of NA, the word doesn't get out.


Yeah, I don't understand it; it's like reviewers & testers don't even see them, or just don't want to acknowledge their existence. I used to find it a bit frustrating...?...eventually I just chalked it down to it being because people don't like the yellow colour scheme. But then I've always favoured function over form, so for me they make sense. I think the majority of PC users these days just want RGB and are unaware, or just don't care about how much performance they're sacrificing to have lights on their fans.

I think covid and the rise in popularity of RGB is killing silent computing.



doyll said:


> The impeller design used by Thermalright's TY-140 is one of the best there is for 140mm fans. I started using TY-140 about 11 years ago (still have some in use). Newer versions like TY-143, TY-147, TY-147a, TY-147B, TY-143 SQ, TY-147ASQ, TY-127, etc. all performing very well. Now
> 
> 
> 
> The impeller design used by Nidec group company Servo D1225C 1450, 1850 & 2150rpm fans commonly known as Gentle Typhoon is best design I know of for 120mm fans. Now with better / stronger impeller materials allowing closer tolerances between tip of impeller and housing make them even better. This is what makes Phanteks T30 and Noctua NF-A12x25 so good. Thermalright is also using GT impeller design in several fans, both 120mm and 140mm. They include TL-C9, TL-D12B, TL-C14X, TL-D14X, TL-C12015, TL-B12, TL-C12 Pro, TL-D14L RGB, etc. all performing very well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. I would like to see how the Akasa impeller design performs compared to GTs and others .. as well as Thermairght TY-14x impeller and newer 140mm GT style impeller.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for using brand names for impeller design. I do not know what the scientific name is for these impeller designs. If anyone knows their proper names please tell us.


 I use Blacknoise, NB-Multiframe S-Series 120mm fans for silent builds, although they are quite expensive blacknoise.com - Noiseblocker NB Multiframe S-Series 120mm

But, generally, if I'm building a silent computing rig, that allows the use of 140mm fans, I use Nanoxia Deep Silence fans; still available direct from Nanoxia, but pretty much nowhere else at this point. Deep Silence 140mm Fan

I've never really been a fan of Noctua...?...I don't really get what all the fuss is about? I use their 92mm fan, if I need a fan of that size, because theirs is the best I've been able to find in that size, but for everything else, I've found there generally are just better options out there.

And yeah, I'd love to see the Vipers tested. When I found out Gamers Nexus were getting their fan testing machine, I reached out to them to ask if I could send them some vipers to test, but I got a lukewarm response to say the least. They made it pretty clear they didn't really want to talk to me, at all, and gave me the impression they only just barely decided to respond. But I'm going to send them at least one fan anyway...?...not a Viper, because I think it's pointless expecting a reviewer, influencer, or tester to even acknowledge they exist, it's going to cost me money to ship it to the states and they left me with the impression that it'd be more or less pointless me sending them any, because they probably weren't going to use them anyway? But I figure, what the hell...?...if I send them a Nanoxia Deep Silence, they might include it in their roundup? But yeah, it was a bit disheartening and disappointing; I was intending to send them an AeroCool DeadSilence, an Akasa Viper and a Nanoxia Deep Silence 140mm, but now I think it's just going to be the Nanoxia; and...to be honest...?...after reading back to myself what I just wrote...?...I think I might just not bother? 😕

I thought it would help support them if I sent them fans to test, like a donation...?...and hopefully they'd actually test them, and I might get to see one of my favourite fans tested...?...but yeah...it wasn't a good experience.


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> Oh no, really? That's a shame, I thought it'd be more useful...?...I might give it a try anyway?
> 
> I use Blacknoise, NB-Multiframe S-Series 120mm fans for silent builds, although they are quite expensive blacknoise.com - Noiseblocker NB Multiframe S-Series 120mm
> 
> But, generally, if I'm building a silent computing rig, that allows the use of 140mm fans, I use Nanoxia Deep Silence fans; still available direct from Nanoxia, but pretty much nowhere else at this point. Deep Silence 140mm Fan
> 
> I've never really been a fan of Noctua...?...I don't really get what all the fuss is about? I use their 92mm fan, if I need a fan of that size, because theirs is the best I've been able to find in that size, but for everything else, I've found there generally are just better options out there.
> 
> And yeah, I'd love to see the Vipers tested. When I found out Gamers Nexus were getting their fan testing machine, I reached out to them to ask if I could send them some vipers to test, but I got a lukewarm response to say the least. They made it pretty clear they didn't really want to talk to me, at all, and gave me the impression they only just barely decided to respond. But I'm going to send them at least one fan anyway...?...not a Viper, because I think it's pointless expecting a reviewer, influencer, or tester to even acknowledge they exist, it's going to cost me money to ship it to the states and they left me with the impression that it'd be more or less pointless me sending them any, because they probably weren't going to use them anyway? But I figure, what the hell...?...if I send them a Nanoxia Deep Silence, they might include it in their roundup? But yeah, it was a bit disheartening and disappointing; I was intending to send them an AeroCool DeadSilence, an Akasa Viper and a Nanoxia Deep Silence 140mm, but now I think it's just going to be the Nanoxia; and...to be honest...?...after reading back to myself what I just wrote...?...I think I might just not bother? 😕
> 
> I thought it would help support them if I sent them fans to test, like a donation...?...and hopefully they'd actually test them, and I might get to see one of my favourite fans tested...?...but yeah...it wasn't a good experience.


Incense sticks do work, just don't expect them to make a line of smoke all the way through case. From intake in a few inches into case. You can probably slip sticks through case holes and position them to see where smoke moves from stick on into case. Can use clothespins and tape to position incense sticks inside and close side cover to see what smoke trail is. 

As many different fans as I've used and tested over the years there are many many more that I have not. I've found to get a reasonable representation of each model at least 2 and more is better are needed because often they don't all perform the same. 

Noctua make good fans. Actually all their products are good, just higher priced then most others. That said, their customer support is best in industry, so for some people the extra price is worth it. 

I can kinda understand why GamerNexus said what they did. They don't know if fans you send them are really the same as ones they might receive from brand company. You could maybe not like a certain brand and do things to fan that are not visible that make it perform different than real fan that they wouldn't know about. Then they publish the results showing how bad fan they tested were. Actual fan company could then sue them for defamation of character and even if they were able to prove the didn't do anything wrong would have to pay huge legal fees to get themselves out of trouble. I'm trying to build a half decent test station. Don't know if I'll be able to do it because pressure meter to accurately measure from 0-10 mm H2O in at least 0.1 mm H2O increments accurately (0.01 mm H2O would be better) are quite expensive. 

Please let us know how your airflow work turns out. Always good to see how others do it. It's how we all learn.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> Incense sticks do work, just don't expect them to make a line of smoke all the way through case. From intake in a few inches into case. You can probably slip sticks through case holes and position them to see where smoke moves from stick on into case. Can use clothespins and tape to position incense sticks inside and close side cover to see what smoke trail is.
> 
> As many different fans as I've used and tested over the years there are many many more that I have not. I've found to get a reasonable representation of each model at least 2 and more is better are needed because often they don't all perform the same.
> 
> Noctua make good fans. Actually all their products are good, just higher priced then most others. That said, their customer support is best in industry, so for some people the extra price is worth it.
> 
> I can kinda understand why GamerNexus said what they did. They don't know if fans you send them are really the same as ones they might receive from brand company. You could maybe not like a certain brand and do things to fan that are not visible that make it perform different than real fan that they wouldn't know about. Then they publish the results showing how bad fan they tested were. Actual fan company could then sue them for defamation of character and even if they were able to prove the didn't do anything wrong would have to pay huge legal fees to get themselves out of trouble. I'm trying to build a half decent test station. Don't know if I'll be able to do it because pressure meter to accurately measure from 0-10 mm H2O in at least 0.1 mm H2O increments accurately (0.01 mm H2O would be better) are quite expensive.
> 
> Please let us know how your airflow work turns out. Always good to see how others do it. It's how we all learn.


Sure thing, and yeah...re. Gamer's Nexus...?...I guess I didn't really look at it that way? It was just a bit of an odd experience. Unusual and unexpected to get a response like that; at least for me.


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> Sure thing, and yeah...re. Gamer's Nexus...?...I guess I didn't really look at it that way? It was just a bit of an odd experience. Unusual and unexpected to get a response like that; at least for me.


Lots of ways to play with incense stick smoke inside of case. Look forward to seeing what you do.


----------



## Dogzilla07

@GenkiM It's one thing to send a product to test if it's bad (like Gigabyte PSU and so on). But like @doyll said fans are finicky, easy to tamper with.

They also might not want to take single fans. They might be doing basic comparison between a few same models, just to rule out a fan being bad from the factory (even if it's in mint packaging). I also think they want to get the fans themselves, and they might only want to get fans that are widely available. And Akasa's new stuff is completely different from their old, same like Prolimatech.


----------



## GenkiM

Dogzilla07 said:


> @GenkiM It's one thing to send a product to test if it's bad (like Gigabyte PSU and so on). But like @doyll said fans are finicky, easy to tamper with.
> 
> They also might not want to take single fans. They might be doing basic comparison between a few same models, just to rule out a fan being bad from the factory (even if it's in mint packaging). I also think they want to get the fans themselves, and they might only want to get fans that are widely available. And Akasa's new stuff is completely different from their old, same like Prolimatech.


I guess so. I guess it saves me some money buying and shipping the stuff to them. 

Anyway...I did some thermal testing as per doyll's request:



doyll said:


> I used Akasa Viper 10-12 years ago. I've used so many fans sense then it's hard to remember much about them. I changed from Vipers to TY-140 and so many more sense then. I use only a few fans placed strategically to created smooth through case airflow. You use lots of fans placed to flow air to each area. My guess is your way works but requires more fans to do it.
> Yes, you probably have overkill.
> What is temp change with fan over RAM unplugged?
> What is temp change with fan in front of GPU unplugged?
> What is temp change with rear exhaust unplugged?
> What is temp change with bottom intake near PSU unplugged?


...and here are the results:

Readings taken during OCCT GPU Stress Test (50% GPU Usage; Shader Complexity: 3) & TestMem5 (Extreme1 @anta777 config)

(Between the readings being taken for the first and second column, the RAM frequency was raised from 3800MHz to 3900Mhz)

*Column 1*: All fans connected

*Column 2*: Fan against end of GPU disconnected.

*Column 3*: Fan adjacent to PSU disconnected.

*Column 4*: Fan against the end of GPU & fan against PSU disconnected.

*Column 5*: Fan against the end of the GPU, fan against the PSU & rear extractor fan, disconnected.

The column 6 results were lost because the PC crashed due to the system RAM overheating (see below for a description of the effect on the system, of disconnecting the RAM cooling fan).
For the Column 6 results (which were lost) the fan against the end of the GPU, the fan adjacent to the PSU, the rear extractor fan, _and_ the fan cooling the RAM were removed.

(Temps in degrees C)

(The CPU is cooled by an AIO, so the CPU results aren't particularly interesting).

*.......................Col 1.........Col 2...........Col 3 .........Col 4* *.........Col 5*
CPU: *...............*65*...............*65*...............*63*...............*63*...............*65

RAM: *...............*42*...............*41.5*............*42*...............*43.5*...............*41.5
RAM: *...............*42*...............*40*..............*41.3*...............*42*...............*40
MOS: *...............*42*...............*41.5*...........*41.5*...............*42.5............ 42

SYS *.................*47*...............* 50 *...............*46.5*............*51*...............* 50
(The results for the above row might seem odd until you consider that system temperature is measured at a single point on the board and isn't representative of total system temperature. Edit: on reflection, and considering the graphics card temp drop during this test, I think there must be some kind of external factor behind this temperature drop...?...maybe a background task taking resources away from the stress test, or a drop in ambient temperature?)

PCH *.................*45 *................*45 *..............*45 *...............*45 *..............*45
PCIE_1*.............*56 *................*55 *...............*56*...............* 56 *..............*55
PCIE_2 *............*46 *................*45 *...............*46 *...............*46 *..............*44

(Edit: okay...apologies for the formatting (just imagine it's a really neat table, I've got stuff to do)) X0)

GPU: *...................*79*...............* 81 *...............*78*...............* 81*...............* 80
Memory:*...............*87*...............* 90 *...............*87.3*.............*91 *...............*89.5
Hot spot:*...............*92 *...............*95*...............* 91*................*95.5 *............*94.5
GPU Fan1 *...........*59% *............*62%*............*58% *.............*62%*.............*61%
GPU Fan2 *..........*59%*.............* 62%*.............*58% *............*62%*.............*61%


Viper R's .............800 ..............870.............800 ..............880 .............880 (Extremely rough averages.)
(Regulated by system temp)


The drop in Graphics card temps when the fan adjacent to the PSU is removed is unusual. The idea behind it was to try and feed air to the graphics card but the column 3 data seems to suggest that it's actually hindering the cooling of the graphics card, rather than helping it. It's something I need to look at and test again. It's possible that there may have just been an ambient temperature drop at that time during the test, as these (very informal) tests weren't carried out in a temperature-controlled environment.

Another unusual result occurred when I disconnected the fan cooling the RAM. The rise in overall temperature across the components seemed disproportionate to what might be expected from the removal of this type of fan from the position in which it sat, it seemed to make a considerably greater difference than the removal of the rear extractor (although had the rear extractor not been removed the effect probably wouldn't have occurred). RAM temperature and MOSFET temperatures rose as expected until the temperature of the RAM (which is overclocked and overvolted) got so high, that the system crashed, taking the data for that part of the test with it. Before it crashed, however, a general trend for fast-rising temperatures across the whole system was observed...

...upon looking more closely at the topology of the board, it seems that the alcove formed by the RAM, MOSFET heatsink, and graphics card, formed a kind of channel, through which the air from the fan was forced up and out of the top of the case, giving an extractor fan type effect. In light of this discovery, I can honestly say that the most important fan in the case (apart from those on the CPU and GPU) is the ram cooling fan, which acts as an extractor driving air out of the top of the case and without which the system will likely crash about 10 minutes in to any heavily RAM dependent process. It also seems apparent that on the question of whether it's necessary to cool RAM, the answer seems to be: if you're overclocking it heavily, then yes, absolutely. If you're leaving it stock, then no, and if you're using it with its XMP profile enabled (should it have one) then, your mileage may vary (I don't know if there's a standard for XML profiles and/or whether they're expected to to be able to run without active cooling, so, I can't make a blanket statement regarding that).

Another unusual effect was System fan 8 (yes, I have eight fan headers on my board 😊) spontaneously ramping up to full speed as I started to disconnect the fans. It did it twice in approximately twenty minutes when I'd pulled the Video Card adjacent fan, and did so more frequently as I removed each successive fan. I've no idea why it did this. It's possible it might be an auto-thermal fan, as it's the "Venom" branded viper that was sold with the Akasa Medusa and seems to also run at a slightly higher speed than all of the other vipers in the case. It was dumb luck that it ended up cooling the RAM, so, a happy accident, if indeed it is an auto-thermal fan?

Here's a picture of the aperture at the top of the case, through which the RAM cooling fan was blowing air, via the channel formed by the motherboard topography:









Here's a picture of the rig (there isn't a second fan next to the extractor, the motherboard just has a very reflective rear IO cover).










The fan adjacent to the PSU, which was disconnected during most of these tests, is barely visible here in the floor of the case:










I'm actually going to test again to see if I can replicate the drop in GPU temperatures that seemed to occur when I disconnected the PSU-adjacent fan. I'm also going to test with both floor fans disconnected, in the hope that I might just be able to pull them both from the system completely.


----------



## GenkiM

GenkiM said:


> Anyway...I did some thermal testing as per doyll's request:
> 
> ...and here are the results:
> 
> Readings taken during OCCT GPU Stress Test (50% GPU Usage; Shader Complexity: 3) & TestMem5 (Extreme1 @anta777 config)
> 
> (Between the readings being taken for the first and second column, the RAM frequency was raised from 3800MHz to 3900Mhz)
> 
> *Column 1*: All fans connected
> 
> *Column 2*: Fan against end of GPU disconnected.
> 
> *Column 3*: Fan adjacent to PSU disconnected.
> 
> *Column 4*: Fan against the end of GPU & fan against PSU disconnected.
> 
> *Column 5*: Fan against the end of the GPU, fan against the PSU & rear extractor fan, disconnected.
> 
> The column 6 results were lost because the PC crashed due to the system RAM overheating (see below for a description of the effect on the system, of disconnecting the RAM cooling fan).
> For the Column 6 results (which were lost) the fan against the end of the GPU, the fan adjacent to the PSU, the rear extractor fan, _and_ the fan cooling the RAM were removed.
> 
> (Temps in degrees C)
> 
> (The CPU is cooled by an AIO, so the CPU results aren't particularly interesting).
> 
> *.......................Col 1.........Col 2...........Col 3 .........Col 4* *.........Col 5*
> CPU: *...............*65*...............*65*...............*63*...............*63*...............*65
> 
> RAM: *...............*42*...............*41.5*............*42*...............*43.5*...............*41.5
> RAM: *...............*42*...............*40*..............*41.3*...............*42*...............*40
> MOS: *...............*42*...............*41.5*...........*41.5*...............*42.5............ 42
> 
> SYS *.................*47*...............* 50 *...............*46.5*............*51*...............* 50
> (The results for the above row might seem odd until you consider that system temperature is measured at a single point on the board and isn't representative of total system temperature. Edit: on reflection, and considering the graphics card temp drop during this test, I think there must be some kind of external factor behind this temperature drop...?...maybe a background task taking resources away from the stress test, or a drop in ambient temperature?)
> 
> PCH *.................*45 *................*45 *..............*45 *...............*45 *..............*45
> PCIE_1*.............*56 *................*55 *...............*56*...............* 56 *..............*55
> PCIE_2 *............*46 *................*45 *...............*46 *...............*46 *..............*44
> 
> (Edit: okay...apologies for the formatting (just imagine it's a really neat table, I've got stuff to do)) X0)
> 
> GPU: *...................*79*...............* 81 *...............*78*...............* 81*...............* 80
> Memory:*...............*87*...............* 90 *...............*87.3*.............*91 *...............*89.5
> Hot spot:*...............*92 *...............*95*...............* 91*................*95.5 *............*94.5
> GPU Fan1 *...........*59% *............*62%*............*58% *.............*62%*.............*61%
> GPU Fan2 *..........*59%*.............* 62%*.............*58% *............*62%*.............*61%
> 
> 
> Viper R's .............800 ..............870.............800 ..............880 .............880 (Extremely rough averages.)
> (Regulated by system temp)
> 
> 
> The drop in Graphics card temps when the fan adjacent to the PSU is removed is unusual. The idea behind it was to try and feed air to the graphics card but the column 3 data seems to suggest that it's actually hindering the cooling of the graphics card, rather than helping it. It's something I need to look at and test again. It's possible that there may have just been an ambient temperature drop at that time during the test, as these (very informal) tests weren't carried out in a temperature-controlled environment.
> 
> Another unusual result occurred when I disconnected the fan cooling the RAM. The rise in overall temperature across the components seemed disproportionate to what might be expected from the removal of this type of fan from the position in which it sat, it seemed to make a considerably greater difference than the removal of the rear extractor (although had the rear extractor not been removed the effect probably wouldn't have occurred). RAM temperature and MOSFET temperatures rose as expected until the temperature of the RAM (which is overclocked and overvolted) got so high, that the system crashed, taking the data for that part of the test with it. Before it crashed, however, a general trend for fast-rising temperatures across the whole system was observed...
> 
> ...upon looking more closely at the topology of the board, it seems that the alcove formed by the RAM, MOSFET heatsink, and graphics card, formed a kind of channel, through which the air from the fan was forced up and out of the top of the case, giving an extractor fan type effect. In light of this discovery, I can honestly say that the most important fan in the case (apart from those on the CPU and GPU) is the ram cooling fan, which acts as an extractor driving air out of the top of the case and without which the system will likely crash about 10 minutes in to any heavily RAM dependent process. It also seems apparent that on the question of whether it's necessary to cool RAM, the answer seems to be: if you're overclocking it heavily, then yes, absolutely. If you're leaving it stock, then no, and if you're using it with its XMP profile enabled (should it have one) then, your mileage may vary (I don't know if there's a standard for XML profiles and/or whether they're expected to to be able to run without active cooling, so, I can't make a blanket statement regarding that).
> 
> Another unusual effect was System fan 8 (yes, I have eight fan headers on my board 😊) spontaneously ramping up to full speed as I started to disconnect the fans. It did it twice in approximately twenty minutes when I'd pulled the Video Card adjacent fan, and did so more frequently as I removed each successive fan. I've no idea why it did this. It's possible it might be an auto-thermal fan, as it's the "Venom" branded viper that was sold with the Akasa Medusa and seems to also run at a slightly higher speed than all of the other vipers in the case. It was dumb luck that it ended up cooling the RAM, so, a happy accident, if indeed it is an auto-thermal fan?
> 
> Here's a picture of the aperture at the top of the case, through which the RAM cooling fan was blowing air, via the channel formed by the motherboard topography:
> View attachment 2540737
> 
> 
> Here's a picture of the rig (there isn't a second fan next to the extractor, the motherboard just has a very reflective rear IO cover).
> View attachment 2540738
> 
> 
> 
> The fan adjacent to the PSU, which was disconnected during most of these tests, is barely visible here in the floor of the case:
> View attachment 2540739
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually going to test again to see if I can replicate the drop in GPU temperatures that seemed to occur when I disconnected the PSU-adjacent fan. I'm also going to test with both floor fans disconnected, in the hope that I might just be able to pull them both from the system completely.


So I just got some staggering results that cause me to think there must be an error somewhere, but if there is, it's not immediately jumping out at me:

I turned off both the fans in the floor of the case and ran the same stress tests, and my GPU readings dropped from:

78 GPU
89 GPU Memory
94 GPU Hot Spot
60% Fan 1
60% Fan 2

...to...

36.4 GPU
45.0 GPU Memory
50.4 GPU Hot Spot
41% Fan1
41% Fan2

...so, if these figures are to be trusted,* it seems the fans in the floor of the case were actually neutralising the airflow from the fans in the front of the case*; needless to say I'm going to remove them

Also, I was unable to duplicate last night's results re. the drop in temperatures that seemed to come from disconnecting the PSU-adjacent fan. I tried it again today and it made no difference to GPU temperatures (I've included the tables below).

One thing I could duplicate however, was the ramping up of the RAM cooling fan, just by disconnecting the PSU-adjacent fan. I was also able to duplicate the increase in frequency with which it accelerated/decelerated, by also disconnecting the GPU-adjacent fan...

...I thought the reason for the ramping up might have been that the Venom branded Viper (from an Akasa Medusa cooler) could have been an auto-thermal fan. Swapping fan connectors when testing today showed that it's actually a quirk of the motherboard, in that it's SYS_FAN 8 that caused the fans to accelerate. I don't know why this should be happening as there's nothing in the manual or in BIOS to suggest the SYS_FAN 8 header is in any way different from any of the other case fan headers, nor is it configured any differently in BIOS. There's nothing to suggest why this might be happening and I'm not sure if it's a bug or maybe a forgotten/overlooked feature.

As well as sporadically ramping up, SYS_FAN 8 also seems to consistently drive fans plugged into it, slightly faster than the other SYS_FAN's will drive them, so, I plugged the GPU-adjacent fan into it, as it's the disconnection of the GPU-adjacent fan that seems to have the greatest impact on whether or not SYS_FAN 8 ramps up. Since plugging the GPU-adjacent fan into SYS_FAN 8 there's not been a single instance of it accelerating, even with both floor-intake fans disconnected, so, it seems to be an adequate solution.

Not sure whether they're worth posting since discovering the floor intake fans were actively blocking airflow, but here are the tables for the tests I ran today anyway and they do seem to show that the GPU-adjacent fan makes what looks like a substantial difference to Graphics Card temperatures:

JPG = Readings for all fans connected.

JPG 2 = Readings for PSU-adjacent fan disconnected.

JPG 3 = Readings for PSU-adjacent & GPU-adjacent fans disconnected.

JPG 4 = Readings for both floor-intakes disconnected.

So *it would seem that having fans at right-angles to each other does neutralise their airflow* (how has no one ever tested this?  Or if they have, how have I never heard this?😊)


----------



## doyll

Not sure if you understand how weak computer fans are. Static pressure (pressure differnce between room and what fan can produce pushing air into a sealed container) is almost nothing. If a fan had a static pressure rating of 1.836 mm H2O that is the difference in pressure on your ankles and on our chest standing with toes in ocean. Yeah, barometric pressure at sea level is 1.836mm more than it is 5 feet above sea level. Hope that helps explain how 2x bottom intakes with some venting and an open area in front of PSU shroud can seriously impact airflow to GPU.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> Not sure if you understand how weak computer fans are. Static pressure (pressure differnce between room and what fan can produce pushing air into a sealed container) is almost nothing. If a fan had a static pressure rating of 1.836 mm H2O that is the difference in pressure on your ankles and on our chest standing with toes in ocean. Yeah, barometric pressure at sea level is 1.836mm more than it is 5 feet above sea level. Hope that helps explain how 2x bottom intakes with some venting and an open area in front of PSU shroud can seriously impact airflow to GPU.


 I don't really understand that part of it at all if I'm honest? Do you mean if they were super-heavy duty fans like Delta's/Sanyo Denkis and running at full speed, that would counteract the tendency for them to neutralise each other's airflow?

I think I'm just looking at it in simpler terms...?...if two streams of air with equal speed and pressure collide, they basically just neutralise each other, like ripples in a pond colliding?

I only have a lay perspective on this stuff, so yeah, I don't have insight into the underlying equations etc.?

If one fan were a Delta running at full speed and the other was a Nanoxia Deep Silence, positioned at a 90-degree angle to each other, then the Delta will blow through the Nanoxia's airstream with no problem at all, and effectively form (to use a metaphor) a wall of air that's going to be impenetrable for the Deep Silence. Like "airblades" they use on movie sets when they're working with fire...?...to effectively create an invisible barrier between the crew/actors and the on-set fire effects?

P.S. I've changed my case layout as a result of the above testing; I took some photos and will post them after I've run my RAM OC tests.


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> I don't really understand that part of it at all if I'm honest? Do you mean if they were super-heavy duty fans like Delta's/Sanyo Denkis and running at full speed, that would counteract the tendency for them to neutralise each other's airflow?
> 
> I think I'm just looking at it in simpler terms...?...if two streams of air with equal speed and pressure collide, they basically just neutralise each other, like ripples in a pond colliding?
> 
> I only have a lay perspective on this stuff, so yeah, I don't have insight into the underlying equations etc.?
> 
> If one fan were a Delta running at full speed and the other was a Nanoxia Deep Silence, positioned at a 90-degree angle to each other, then the Delta will blow through the Nanoxia's airstream with no problem at all, and effectively form (to use a metaphor) a wall of air that's going to be impenetrable for the Deep Silence. Like "airblades" they use on movie sets when they're working with fire...?...to effectively create an invisible barrier between the crew/actors and the on-set fire effects?
> 
> P.S. I've changed my case layout as a result of the above testing; I took some photos and will post them after I've run my RAM OC tests.


I'm saying the 2x bottom intakes' airflow is being blocked by PSU shroud (even vented part) thus their airflow tends to move toward front of case with a little leaking though vent in PSU shroud. Test results of these bottom fans running vs unplugged indicates their airflow is disrupting front to back airflow from front intakes with GPU ending up using warmer air to cool with so it's temps are higher with bottom fans than without. I didn't say it before, but this case is a good example of what I call "air*blow*" instead of good "air*flow*". It has lots of fans blowing air with several *blowing* air wrong directions causing turbulence and disrupting smooth front to back air*flow*. 
Pressure differential creates airflow. Higher pressure area of air flows into lower pressure area. 
Static Pressure is only specification we have to give us an idea of how well fan's airflow can overcome resistance (like grill, filter, cables, airflow from other fans, etc).

Just looked at my previous post. I worded it poorly. I hope I didn't offend you. I was only trying to explain that our computer fans make almost on pressure differential, so it takes very little outside influence to disrupt / stop their airflow. We can wave our hand through the air or blow air with much more static pressure and airflow than our fans have.

Maybe if you think of fan airflow as water being moved by boat propeller. Think of your computer case as a box in a pond and vents as opening in the box with fans being propellers / fans moving water through box / case. All water / air flowing into box / case has to have same amount of water / air flowing out of box/ case. 

If that doesn't explain it, please ask more questions.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> I'm saying the 2x bottom intakes' airflow is being blocked by PSU shroud (even vented part) thus their airflow tends to move toward front of case with a little leaking though vent in PSU shroud. Test results of these bottom fans running vs unplugged indicates their airflow is disrupting front to back airflow from front intakes with GPU ending up using warmer air to cool with so it's temps are higher with bottom fans than without. I didn't say it before, but this case is a good example of what I call "air*blow*" instead of good "air*flow*". It has lots of fans blowing air with several *blowing* air wrong directions causing turbulence and disrupting smooth front to back air*flow*.
> Pressure differential creates airflow. Higher pressure area of air flows into lower pressure area.
> Static Pressure is only specification we have to give us an idea of how well fan's airflow can overcome resistance (like grill, filter, cables, airflow from other fans, etc).
> 
> Just looked at my previous post. I worded it poorly. I hope I didn't offend you. I was only trying to explain that our computer fans make almost on pressure differential, so it takes very little outside influence to disrupt / stop their airflow. We can wave our hand through the air or blow air with much more static pressure and airflow than our fans have.
> 
> Maybe if you think of fan airflow as water being moved by boat propeller. Think of your computer case as a box in a pond and vents as opening in the box with fans being propellers / fans moving water through box / case. All water / air flowing into box / case has to have same amount of water / air flowing out of box/ case.
> 
> If that doesn't explain it, please ask more questions.


No, I'd say it's definitely the fans neutralising each other's airflow. The drop in Video card temperature didn't occur until I'd disconnected both of the floor-intakes, and the floor-intake towards the front of the case isn't obstructed. I think it's just Newton's third law, the law of action and reaction: the molecules that make up the body of air being pushed are running into molecules traveling at more or less the same speed and just neutralising each other's forward momentum.

I've just never really thought of it in these terms before.

Also, it's okay, I wasn't offended? I'm just not sure how the pressure side of things factors into it? I guess the pressure comes from the speed of the airflow and the shape of the blade pushing the air. The blade being a solid surface that the air can't escape back through (airflow fans have wider spacings between the blades, where pressure-optimised fans have that spacing reduced, to reduce the amount of air escaping back through the gaps?).


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> No, I'd say it's definitely the fans neutralising each other's airflow. The drop in Video card temperature didn't occur until I'd disconnected both of the floor-intakes, and the floor-intake towards the front of the case isn't obstructed. I think it's just Newton's third law, the law of action and reaction: the molecules that make up the body of air being pushed are running into molecules traveling at more or less the same speed and just neutralising each other's forward momentum.
> 
> I've just never really thought of it in these terms before.
> 
> Also, it's okay, I wasn't offended? I'm just not sure how the pressure side of things factors into it? I guess the pressure comes from the speed of the airflow and the shape of the blade pushing the air. The blade being a solid surface that the air can't escape back through (airflow fans have wider spacings between the blades, where pressure-optimised fans have that spacing reduced, to reduce the amount of air escaping back through the gaps?).


I think it's more the air flowing one way is stopped by air flowing the other way. Airflow from bottom fan nearest front is being stopped by bottom front fan, and visa versa. 

Higher pressure area moves into lower pressure areas. For example a compressor tank, hose and nossle have higher pressure air in them and when you trigger the nossle the higher pressure air move out into lower pressure air. That's and extreme example, but our breathing is same principle. We expand our lungs creating lower pressure in them than is around us and air flows in / we breath in. We contract our lungs building more pressure in out lungs than around us and air flows out. Fan blades develop lower pressure area in front of them drawing air from higher pressure area around fan into fan. then this higher pressure air flow out of fan exhaust side into lower pressure area on exhaust side creating airflow. 

I think it's easier to understand by thinking of air as a liquid. The water in a pond and a box with holes being case with vents with propellers moving water instead of fans moving air. 

Yes, fans with more impellers being closer together usually develop more pressure because less air escapes. The ends of impellers are also a big loss point .. and reason new polymers being used in Noctua NF-A12x25, Phanteks T30, etc. allow impeller to shroud clearances to be much closer so less air loss / better performance. But again, the only way air can 'leak' between impellers and between end of impellers and housing is higher pressure air flowing into lower pressure area. If both were same pressure there can be no air movement.


----------



## Melcar

You generally want to avoid having fans with their airflow perpendicular to each other (and blowing in the same general direction) in close proximity, as that only causes their airflow to crash with each other and create unwanted turbulence. If you want a bottom intake fan (a viable choice in fan placement) it has to be the furthest away from your front intakes and ideally at slower speeds.
You also want to have airflow free from obstructions as much as possible. Shrouds will disrupt your airflow path. Even if you have relatively strong fans, that air is not going to where it needs to go.


----------



## doyll

If you want a bottom intake fan remove the PSU shroud, route PSU cable directly through motherboard backing plate to clear it from vent in bottom and install bottom fan flowing air directly up into GPU fans. But most of the time just front fans with all openings not covered by them in front half of case blocked of will develop a nice smooth flow of air from front of case to back.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> I think it's more the air flowing one way is stopped by air flowing the other way. Airflow from bottom fan nearest front is being stopped by bottom front fan, and visa versa.


 Yeah, that's basically what I'm getting at? Just looking at it in terms of Newton's laws of motion; specifically his third law of motion. 

And I've basically reconfigured my rig now, although I've actually just pre-ordered a new case, so this one's going to be broken down soon...

I removed one of the front fans, repositioned the remaining two, and removed the fans that were in the floor of the case:
































I also added a 92mm fan to the rear of the case. I was going to replace it with a Chromax Black Swap with yellow highlights to compliment the vipers and was thinking about replacing the Viper up against the GPU with a 180mm Fractal Design fan, to catch more of the video card exhaust, but, at this point, I have a new case due soon.










It is a little quieter, as long as the fans on the AIO are set to "Silent" mode, otherwise, when they ramp up they're so loud they mask the noise reduction gained through having removed three Viper R's from the rig.


----------



## doyll

As you know it's obviously not how I setup case airflow, but it works for you.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> As you know it's obviously not how I setup case airflow, but it works for you.


How would you do it...?...what would you suggest?

I've got a new case on pre-order, so going to be taking this build apart but I'd still be interested in some pointers if you have them?


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> How would you do it...?...what would you suggest?
> 
> I've got a new case on pre-order, so going to be taking this build apart but I'd still be interested in some pointers if you have them?


It's covered in 5th post this thread. 








* * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan...


Got tired of posting instructions and guides over and over and over, so decided to start a thread for them. Please do not post unnecessarily as it will make it harder for others to find what they are looking for. This thread is not for opinions of the data or tutorials. If you have questions...




www.overclock.net




I would also remove PSU shroud and use 3x front intakes with all openings not covered by them taped off so air they flow into case cannot leak in front to go in circles instead of thru case. With your roundish fans the opening between 2 and 1 on them in middle mounted over other 2 would be taped shut the opening between case and middle fan. Maybe use a bottom intake with taller case feet for better bottom airflow .. testing to determine if it helps or hurts (see post 15








* * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan...


Got tired of posting instructions and guides over and over and over, so decided to start a thread for them. Please do not post unnecessarily as it will make it harder for others to find what they are looking for. This thread is not for opinions of the data or tutorials. If you have questions...




www.overclock.net




No fans inside of case, ie no fan between front and GPU, no fan over RAM, no exhaust fans except on radiator. It's simple basics of Newton's laws of physics. Air fans flow into case (except possible bottom intake) have only 1 fan for each area. 

As I said before, it's a different way of looking at airflow and trying to keep airflow as smooth as possible and avoiding turbulence. Even small cables disrupt airflow. Simple examples are how a little grass growing in a wire fence line case snow to be drifted deeper along fence than in field .. or how sediment collects around roots and/or rock in slow moving water.

Another way of thinking about it is fan build a higher pressure area of air in case on their exhaust side and that higher pressure air flows into lower pressure area of case causing it to flow on thru case and out back vents or through rad fans and out. 

Another way of expaining airflow is visualizing air as being water, a box or window van as case, and openings in box or windows in van as vents with propellers in some moving water into, thru and out of box of window van. For water to flow into box or van there must be equal amount of water flowing thru and out of box or van. Iliek I said, simple physics.


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## GenkiM

doyll said:


> It's covered in 5th post this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan...
> 
> 
> Got tired of posting instructions and guides over and over and over, so decided to start a thread for them. Please do not post unnecessarily as it will make it harder for others to find what they are looking for. This thread is not for opinions of the data or tutorials. If you have questions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.overclock.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would also remove PSU shroud and use 3x front intakes with all openings not covered by them taped off so air they flow into case cannot leak in front to go in circles instead of thru case. With your roundish fans the opening between 2 and 1 on them in middle mounted over other 2 would be taped shut the opening between case and middle fan. Maybe use a bottom intake with taller case feet for better bottom airflow .. testing to determine if it helps or hurts (see post 15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan...
> 
> 
> Got tired of posting instructions and guides over and over and over, so decided to start a thread for them. Please do not post unnecessarily as it will make it harder for others to find what they are looking for. This thread is not for opinions of the data or tutorials. If you have questions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.overclock.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No fans inside of case, ie no fan between front and GPU, no fan over RAM, no exhaust fans except on radiator. It's simple basics of Newton's laws of physics. Air fans flow into case (except possible bottom intake) have only 1 fan for each area.
> 
> As I said before, it's a different way of looking at airflow and trying to keep airflow as smooth as possible and avoiding turbulence. Even small cables disrupt airflow. Simple examples are how a little grass growing in a wire fence line case snow to be drifted deeper along fence than in field .. or how sediment collects around roots and/or rock in slow moving water.
> 
> Another way of thinking about it is fan build a higher pressure area of air in case on their exhaust side and that higher pressure air flows into lower pressure area of case causing it to flow on thru case and out back vents or through rad fans and out.
> 
> Another way of expaining airflow is visualizing air as being water, a box or window van as case, and openings in box or windows in van as vents with propellers in some moving water into, thru and out of box of window van. For water to flow into box or van there must be equal amount of water flowing thru and out of box or van. Iliek I said, simple physics.


Thanks, I'd have to test it? I'd be worried about not using active cooling for my RAM as it's a Samsung B-die kit and sensitive to temperature when overclocked; they tend to crash the PC when they get hotter than 50 degrees C.

Also, I'm pretty sure the fan against the GPU gives a distinct advantage but I'd have to test that again to say for certain. Also, until I had all of the gaps in the front of the case blocked, I wouldn't really be able to test for that conclusively? Were I to remove the CPU shroud and put a fan alongside the PSU, it might actually be sufficient to feed the GPU cooler, but, as you say, it would probably have to stand on blocks so as not to starve the fans.

I just received a Lan Li, 011 Air Mini Mesh today. It's another one that needs to stand on blocks to let the fans in the floor of the case breathe, otherwise it's one of the worst performers on the market for GPU cooling. But, it's for a Water-Cooling rig that I've been collecting parts for for the last year, so..., at some point (when the GPU's being water-cooled) I'll be able to take it down off of the blocks.


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> Thanks, I'd have to test it? I'd be worried about not using active cooling for my RAM as it's a Samsung B-die kit and sensitive to temperature when overclocked; they tend to crash the PC when they get hotter than 50 degrees C.
> 
> Also, I'm pretty sure the fan against the GPU gives a distinct advantage but I'd have to test that again to say for certain. Also, until I had all of the gaps in the front of the case blocked, I wouldn't really be able to test for that conclusively? Were I to remove the CPU shroud and put a fan alongside the PSU, it might actually be sufficient to feed the GPU cooler, but, as you say, it would probably have to stand on blocks so as not to starve the fans.
> 
> I just received a Lan Li, 011 Air Mini Mesh today. It's another one that needs to stand on blocks to let the fans in the floor of the case breathe, otherwise it's one of the worst performers on the market for GPU cooling. But, it's for a Water-Cooling rig that I've been collecting parts for for the last year, so..., at some point (when the GPU's being water-cooled) I'll be able to take it down off of the blocks.


I understand, your way is different than mine. Maybe your RAM need a fan flowing air onto it to keep cool. Most does not, and obviously it doesn't need to be a powerful fan. If I had RAM that need airflow I would probably use a thin (12-15mm thick) fan like Thermalright TY-100 (100mm round) or TL-9015 (90mm square). I think the rounded shrouds would look better over RAM. RAM PCB are 133.35mm long so 90-100mm fan is plenty big enough generate a decent airflow in to or out of RAM modules. Thermalright also makes TY-14013 (140mm rounded) and TL-C12013 (120mm square fans. There are others. These are ones I've used and found quite good.

My way of doing airflow is gentle, yours is brute force. Not saying mine is better, maybe yours is better. But it's my way. 

Airflow from case fan attached to GPU is likely generating lots of turbulence, especially in front of fans near it. That said, I don't know if that is hurting or helping GPU temps. All I know is generally the less turbulence there is the quieter and cooler things are.

I have made several open center caster bases for computer cases. They are made with 10mm 7-ply Baltic birch plywood cut into strips 30mm wide. Finished thickness is 9mm. Cut strips into 2x the length and 2x the width of case, then do lap-joints in corners so finished frame is same size as case footprint (often 10cm longer/deeper than case so it extends 10 cm behind back of case for cable & rear airflow spacing when rolled back against wall). I place 6x 30mm or 40mm twin-wheel castors with treaded stems tapped and threaded into bottom of them. They can be set under case feet or with case feet removed. Frame edges are radiused to match case edges then paint to match so look like part of case when feet are removed.  Below is one with 30mm casters made for Enthoo Primo case:









Below base has 40mm castors


















Am interested in seeing how you do your Lian Li build.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> I understand, your way is different than mine. Maybe your RAM need a fan flowing air onto it to keep cool. Most does not, and obviously it doesn't need to be a powerful fan. If I had RAM that need airflow I would probably use a thin (12-15mm thick) fan like Thermalright TY-100 (100mm round) or TL-9015 (90mm square). I think the rounded shrouds would look better over RAM. RAM PCB are 133.35mm long so 90-100mm fan is plenty big enough generate a decent airflow in to or out of RAM modules. Thermalright also makes TY-14013 (140mm rounded) and TL-C12013 (120mm square fans. There are others. These are ones I've used and found quite good.
> 
> My way of doing airflow is gentle, yours is brute force. Not saying mine is better, maybe yours is better. But it's my way.
> 
> Airflow from case fan attached to GPU is likely generating lots of turbulence, especially in front of fans near it. That said, I don't know if that is hurting or helping GPU temps.  All I know is generally the less turbulence there is the quieter and cooler things are.
> 
> I have made several open center caster bases for computer cases. They are made with 10mm 7-ply Baltic birch plywood cut into strips 30mm wide. Finished thickness is 9mm. Cut strips into 2x the length and 2x the width of case, then do lap-joints in corners so finished frame is same size as case footprint (often 10cm longer/deeper than case so it extends 10 cm behind back of case for cable & rear airflow spacing when rolled back against wall). I place 6x 30mm or 40mm twin-wheel castors with treaded stems tapped and threaded into bottom of them. They can be set under case feet or with case feet removed. Frame edges are radiused to match case edges then paint to match so look like part of case when feet are removed.  Below is one with 30mm casters made for Enthoo Primo case:
> View attachment 2541432
> 
> 
> Below base has 40mm castors
> View attachment 2541436
> View attachment 2541437
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am interested in seeing how you do your Lian Li build.


 That open caster base is pretty cool  Do you sell them / make them to order?

When I put the Lan Li together, with the water-cooling, the airflow's mainly going to be for the motherboard and RAM, so probably not going to install fans in the floor of the case? If I were going to install fans in the case floor, I'd need to find a good looking way of doing it...?...I don't really want to put the case on stilts? That open caster base does look pretty good; do you make them to sell?

Re. my approach: I can't really agree with you re. me brute forcing the airflow? The Viper R's start at 600RPM & 7dB(a). The TY-100R you recommended starts at 22dB(a) at 900RPM, which is over three times the dB(a) of the Viper...?...and they push 1.488 CFM per dB(a) at full speed, where the Viper R pushes 5.048CFM per dB(a) at full speed...?...the Viper R's are extremely efficient, which generally means they stay at their initial speed, and don't ramp up unless you have a very heavy workload with an overclocked CPU. The Viper R's have a pressure rating of 2.91 mm-H2O and they push a lot of air, so they're by no means silent, but in terms of performance per dB(a) they are extremely quiet fans.

I guess it's moot because the TY-100R and the Viper R both seem to be out of production at this point?

The TL-C12015 (I couldn't find TL-C12013...?) also looks a little loud?

The TL-9015R looks interesting, and I like how it looks. As long as it doesn't have an audible motor note or harmonic I think I'd definitely consider it, because of its looks  ...although, with a 140mm fan, offset, you don't have the fan-hub, dead-zone up against the RAM; and the 140mm fan also serves the dual purpose of cooling the MOSFETs and In the current build it also creates an extractor effect through the top of the case, so it's pretty handy, although technically the MOSFETs on the board don't need cooling, so....yeah.

...and yeah, the Viper against the RAM probably does add a little noise...?...but for me it more or less comes down to a performance per decibel proposition, and whether it's worth the extra noise to have it there? While I'm trying to figure out how to overclock my RAM, I need a fan against the RAM, otherwise the system would crash because of the dimms overheating.

Edit: Reconnecting the GPU-adjacent fan, while the GPU is under load (OCCT stress test) makes a 3 degree difference to the GPU and reduces the GPU fan speed by 3%

It reduces the M.2 temp by 5 degrees and chipset by 3 degrees, and basically can't be heard over the noise of the GPU fans, so...not sure if it's really worth while while the card's under a heavy, stress-test load, but I'm pretty sure it makes a bigger difference in more real-world scenarios? Of course, I've not blocked off the holes in the case, so I don't know how things would differ were I to do that?


----------



## doyll

GenkiM said:


> That open caster base is pretty cool  Do you sell them / make them to order?
> 
> When I put the Lan Li together, with the water-cooling, the airflow's mainly going to be for the motherboard and RAM, so probably not going to install fans in the floor of the case? If I were going to install fans in the case floor, I'd need to find a good looking way of doing it...?...I don't really want to put the case on stilts? That open caster base does look pretty good; do you make them to sell?
> 
> Re. my approach: I can't really agree with you re. me brute forcing the airflow? The Viper R's start at 600RPM & 7dB(a). The TY-100R you recommended starts at 22dB(a) at 900RPM, which is over three times the dB(a) of the Viper...?...and they push 1.488 CFM per dB(a) at full speed, where the Viper R pushes 5.048CFM per dB(a) at full speed...?...the Viper R's are extremely efficient, which generally means they stay at their initial speed, and don't ramp up unless you have a very heavy workload with an overclocked CPU. The Viper R's have a pressure rating of 2.91 mm-H2O and they push a lot of air, so they're by no means silent, but in terms of performance per dB(a) they are extremely quiet fans.
> 
> I guess it's moot because the TY-100R and the Viper R both seem to be out of production at this point?
> 
> The TL-C12015 (I couldn't find TL-C12013...?) also looks a little loud?
> 
> The TL-9015R looks interesting, and I like how it looks. As long as it doesn't have an audible motor note or harmonic I think I'd definitely consider it, because of its looks  ...although, with a 140mm fan, offset, you don't have the fan-hub, dead-zone up against the RAM; and the 140mm fan also serves the dual purpose of cooling the MOSFETs and In the current build it also creates an extractor effect through the top of the case, so it's pretty handy, although technically the MOSFETs on the board don't need cooling, so....yeah.
> 
> ...and yeah, the Viper against the RAM probably does add a little noise...?...but for me it more or less comes down to a performance per decibel proposition, and whether it's worth the extra noise to have it there? While I'm trying to figure out how to overclock my RAM, I need it there otherwise the system would crash because of the heat.
> 
> Edit: Reconnecting the GPU-adjacent fan, while the GPU is under load (OCCT stress test) makes a 3 degree difference to the GPU and reduces the GPU fan speed by 3%
> 
> It reduces the M.2 temp by 5 degrees and chipset by 3 degrees, and basically can't be heard over the noise of the GPU fans, so...not sure if it's really worth while while the cards under a heavy, stress test load, but I'm pretty sure it makes a bigger difference in more real-world scenarios? Of course, I've not blocked off the holes in the case, so I don't know how things would differ were I to do that?


I made caster bases for several years, but bad health stopped me. Sorry.

To me the best way to cool motherboard components is to have a nice smooth flow if air longways of GPU. That is normally front intakes flowing over motherboard with maybe a bottom intake to give enough flow. Generally this works well.

Your "Brute force" is 3x front intake fans, 2x bottom intake fans 1x fan at end of GPU 2x fans on GPU, another over RAM, another in back and 2 on radiator .. grand total of 11 fans. 

Mine "gentle force" is 2x front intake fans, tower cooler with 1/ fan, and stock GPU or 2x 92/120mm on GPU .. grand total of 5 fans.

I get similar temp with half as many fans spinning at low speed 99% of the time. Sometimes even less fans. Most builds have a few more than I do but rarely as many as you have. It's the word that first hit me when I saw your sytem. I could maybe have thought of one not quit a strong, but it's not like it's a bad word or thing. 
Hope that helps explain it.
22dBA is about 7dB quieter than a very quiet bedroom in quiet neighborhood at 3AM. 

Can't remember where you are on our big blue marble. If shipping isn't to expensive I have quite a collection of fans, so might be able to help with a few special needs.

I used to try and get everything as cool as I could, but then I realize as long as it's within safe limits not to worry about it. 

Could you space fans 5-10mm off of RAM?

TL-9015R are same fan as TY-100BP in different housing TY-100BP was first. 

In your case I don't know for sure. My guess is in front it would make a difference because as it is the air those 2x fans are 25-30mm behind front grill so when they pull air in and create lower pressure on their intake side had higher pressure on exhaust side some of that air is moving around in front and going back through them instead of on thru case.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> I made caster bases for several years, but bad health stopped me. Sorry.
> 
> To me the best way to cool motherboard components is to have a nice smooth flow if air longways of GPU. That is normally front intakes flowing over motherboard with maybe a bottom intake to give enough flow. Generally this works well.
> 
> Your "Brute force" is 3x front intake fans, 2x bottom intake fans 1x fan at end of GPU 2x fans on GPU, another over RAM, another in back and 2 on radiator .. grand total of 11 fans.
> 
> Mine "gentle force" is 2x front intake fans, tower cooler with 1/ fan, and stock GPU or 2x 92/120mm on GPU .. grand total of 5 fans.
> 
> I get similar temp with half as many fans spinning at low speed 99% of the time. Sometimes even less fans. Most builds have a few more than I do but rarely as many as you have. It's the word that first hit me when I saw your sytem. I could maybe have thought of one not quit a strong, but it's not like it's a bad word or thing.
> Hope that helps explain it.
> 22dBA is about 7dB quieter than a very quiet bedroom in quiet neighborhood at 3AM.
> 
> Can't remember where you are on our big blue marble. If shipping isn't to expensive I have quite a collection of fans, so might be able to help with a few special needs.
> 
> I used to try and get everything as cool as I could, but then I realize as long as it's within safe limits not to worry about it.
> 
> Could you space fans 5-10mm off of RAM?
> 
> TL-9015R are same fan as TY-100BP in different housing TY-100BP was first.
> 
> In your case I don't know for sure. My guess is in front it would make a difference because as it is the air those 2x fans are 25-30mm behind front grill so when they pull air in and create lower pressure on their intake side had higher pressure on exhaust side some of that air is moving around in front and going back through them instead of on thru case.


I'm sorry to hear about the health issues. I have stuff of my own and I know how debilitating it can be not to be in good health.

As for the fans, I really do appreciated the offer but, I'm going to be moving my hardware into a different case? It arrived today and is still in its box sitting on my bed unopened, because I'm still wrestling with a RAM overclock. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## TeslaHUN

GenkiM said:


> I'm sorry to hear about the health issues. I have stuff of my own and I know how debilitating it can be not to be in good health.
> 
> As for the fans, I really do appreciated the offer but, I'm going to be moving my hardware into a different case? It arrived today and is still in its box sitting on my bed unopened, because I'm still wrestling with a RAM overclock. 🤦‍♂️


It might be useful for ur new case :


----------



## GenkiM

TeslaHUN said:


> It might be useful for ur new case :


 That's brilliant!! Thanks :0) 

I'm going to go with his recommendation.


----------



## GenkiM

doyll said:


> Am interested in seeing how you do your Lian Li build.


 @doyll, and whoever else might be interested:

I posted some thermal experiments with my new build here: My new build & experimenting with a (probably?)...


----------



## doyll

Was going though some old files and this NH-D14 vs NH-D15 fan and cooler comparison.


----------



## learner-gr

Hi to the team here ...
As i was looking in internet i found this cpu cooler orientation and i would like to ask (especially you doyll) if it effective?










I was thinking to put the cpu fan on the down side of the cpu cooler as we watch at the photo.


----------



## learner-gr

and also what's your opinions for the 
*Lian Li PC-O11 *
case?


----------



## doyll

You can mount cooler to exhaust up and out of case, but in my experience it mounted to flow from front intake to cooler and on back out rear case vent that is in back of CPU works better. 

I assume you are talking about Lian Li PC-011 Air and not Dynamic. Lian Li PC-011 Air works well with air cooling.


----------



## learner-gr

Doyll thanks for your reply!
I meant Lian Li PC-011 Dynamic not Air. 
It is very strange for fans placement and that's why i ask if it is any good.


----------



## doyll

If you are buying new case, get Air model, not Dynamic. If you were using water cooling side vent is fine for radiator, but not so much for air cooling. That's why Lian Li makes the 'Air' model. 

Why are you looking to use PC-011 Dynamic instead of Air?

Reason I ask is air coming in side intake near front need a lot more power to turn air 90 degrees so it flows back toward motherboard. Fans with more power to overcome extra resistance cost much more and make more noise as well. Problem is case fans are very weak. A fan rated 1.836mmH2O static pressure (pressure on exhaust side vs intake side when mounted on sealed container at full speed) is the same as the difference in pressure on your feet and 5 feet/1.52m higher on your body standing at sea level. Yeah, not much pressure at all. And that's assuming fan is running full speed with no grill with no air flow at all. But we never use our fans this way .. and rarely at full speed. So this tiny amount of pressure differential is much much lower in our cases. Long story short we need to do as much as we reasonably can to eliminate airflow resistance to have good airflow at low noise levels.


----------



## learner-gr

doyll said:


> If you are buying new case, get Air model, not Dynamic. If you were using water cooling side vent is fine for radiator, but not so much for air cooling. That's why Lian Li makes the 'Air' model.
> 
> Why are you looking to use PC-011 Dynamic instead of Air?
> 
> ......


because i found it used in good price and it is beautiful 
I have a enthoo pro M right now.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> because i found it used in good price and it is beautiful
> I have a enthoo pro M right now.


Guess you have to use side full of intake fans. Seal any openings around them so air they push into case cannot leak out and end up going in circles instead of being forced to turn and go on thru case.


----------



## ciarlatano

learner-gr said:


> because i found it used in good price and it is beautiful
> I have a enthoo pro M right now.


It is a beautiful case, but it is also a beautiful hot box. You are going to have a lot to overcome to get airflow in that case. You are also coming from a case with good airflow, so the difference is going to be pretty drastic.


----------



## doyll

Seems I remember something about Lian Lo doing a mesh front vent and fan mount accessory for 011D. Here's link to it on their website


https://lian-li.com/product/o11de-4/


----------



## TeslaHUN

This mixed fan mode is pretty smart (and free )


----------



## Lobuttomize

Is there anyone that tests cpu heatsink performance with standardized fans?


----------



## doyll

Lobuttomize said:


> Is there anyone that tests cpu heatsink performance with standardized fans?


Not that I know of. There used to be a few but that was years ago.


----------



## Melcar

Tech Jesus reviewed the Thermalright Assassin Spirit:






Hopefully he reviews their other coolers like the FC140 too.


----------



## CrustyJuggler

TeslaHUN said:


> This mixed fan mode is pretty smart (and free )


If I wasn't invested in Argus Monitor, I'd use this. It's more resource heavy vs Argus, but it's free and very powerful.


----------



## Lobuttomize

doyll said:


> Not that I know of. There used to be a few but that was years ago.


Feel like you should make a youtube series doing it with what you have. If it gets popular enough, maybe you could use a patreon to buy more heatsinks to test. I'd really like to see a good, solid comparison of heatsinks with a standard TDP (from a good hot plate or something like that), standard ambient temp, a test with no fans, and a test with a few different noise levels of aftermarket fans. Since you can just swap fans on heatsinks all you want, they're almost just an obstruction in cpu cooler data imo. I know it wouldn't be accurate to different IHSs and such, but the efficiency of the heatsink is what I'm really after. Who knows more than you about this stuff, anyway?


----------



## doyll

Lobuttomize said:


> Feel like you should make a youtube series doing it with what you have. If it gets popular enough, maybe you could use a patreon to buy more heatsinks to test. I'd really like to see a good, solid comparison of heatsinks with a standard TDP (from a good hot plate or something like that), standard ambient temp, a test with no fans, and a test with a few different noise levels of aftermarket fans. Since you can just swap fans on heatsinks all you want, they're almost just an obstruction in cpu cooler data imo. I know it wouldn't be accurate to different IHSs and such, but the efficiency of the heatsink is what I'm really after. Who knows more than you about this stuff, anyway?


If I wa a video kind of guy and had the video equipment and software I would consider doing it. Testing coolers is time consuming if done even close to acurate. Requires high heat CPU (obviously) and have to monitor air temp entering cooler fan to be even have accurate. 

Should also have pressure sensitive material to measure cooler to CPU IHS print. I know it's out there but no idea who makes / sells it or what it's brand name is. Gamer Nexus uses it (see below contact prints of Thermalright Assassin Spirit 120 /AS120):


----------



## Owterspace

doyll said:


> Requires high heat CPU


This is OCN..

Any CPU can be a high heat CPU if you kick it in the cores hard enough


----------



## doyll

Owterspace said:


> This is OCN..
> 
> Any CPU can be a high heat CPU if you kick it in the cores hard enough


True, but my Ryzen 3600 even with high voltage won't be anything like my old i7 920 @ 4.3Ghz. 

If we are going to test coolers with different fans, including reference 120mm and 140mm fans we need heat transfer from CPU to cooler base to be the same for all coolers. Problem is every cooer base and every IHS have their own shape, so CPU to IHS prints are different for each combination. Because of how huge the effect on heat transfer is from CPU to cooler base with each pair, the only way to make it consistent requires both IHS and cooler to be lapped. To lap every cooler base would take lots and lots of time and materials.

It would take so much time it's impractical .. but without elimiating IHS to cooler base variable doing reference fan test results would be flawed.


----------



## Owterspace

Yup, my old Xeon 6 core actually got LGMRT and TS140P warm, my newer CPUS did not


----------



## goulashi

Found a better way to air cool me dam rig, open air bench full-time.










Arctic P12 on me CPU block that replaced the deepcool generic fan..

[email protected]/6800XT


----------



## doyll

Looks good! 
What open air bench is that?


----------



## goulashi

^amazon Chinese special.








open bench

It should look better but me cable management leaves alot to be desired plus iam not too fussed it all works, it's not neat at all though.

Cinebench I'm maxing at 53c([email protected]/6800XT)so aside from that in games iam actually doing really good...


----------



## doyll

As you said the first time. 

Yeah, cable management can be a challenge. I use One-Wrap® Velcro® brand tape in 12mm width for simple clean looking reusable cable ties. First I used it was green 12mm x 5m roll for tying up plants to sticks, then got black roll same size. If you are interested, ebay has 1/2" (13mm) x 10' roll for $4.95








Velcro® Brand One Wrap® Self Gripping Hook & Loop Tape 1/2" 16 Colors 2 Sizes | eBay


Used with permission. or 1/2 x 15ft your choice of Black, White,Red,Grey,Yellow, Beige, Royal Blue, Adamia(purple), Tan, Coyote Brown ,Green, Orange, Fire ******ant Cranberry and Fire ******ant Black.



www.ebay.com


----------



## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> As you said the first time.
> 
> Yeah, cable management can be a challenge. I use One-Wrap® Velcro® brand tape in 12mm width for simple clean looking reusable cable ties. First I used it was green 12mm x 5m roll for tying up plants to sticks, then got black roll same size. If you are interested, ebay has 1/2" (13mm) x 10' roll for $4.95
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Velcro® Brand One Wrap® Self Gripping Hook & Loop Tape 1/2" 16 Colors 2 Sizes | eBay
> 
> 
> Used with permission. or 1/2 x 15ft your choice of Black, White,Red,Grey,Yellow, Beige, Royal Blue, Adamia(purple), Tan, Coyote Brown ,Green, Orange, Fire ******ant Cranberry and Fire ******ant Black.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


One wrap is great stuff. BQ always included precut pieces with their PSUs. With all of the BQ power supplies I have had.....I have a lifetime supply.


----------



## goulashi

Thanks guys I'll look into it.


----------



## learner-gr

Hi there!
Doyll or anyone else. What's your opinion about the Phanteks enthoo primo case?
I found one used under 100 euros and i would like to know if it is a good idea to replace my enthoo pro M with it.
I don't know the airflow of it because it doesn't have a hole on the front side like the enthoo pro M.


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Hi there!
> Doyll or anyone else. What's your opinion about the Phanteks enthoo primo case?
> I found one used under 100 euros and i would like to know if it is a good idea to replace my enthoo pro M with it.
> I don't know the airflow of it because it doesn't have a hole on the front side like the enthoo pro M.


I loved my Enthoo Primo! Only reason I sold it is it's too tall to fit under my desk. 
If you use bottom intake case should be raised 20-30mm to improve airflow to bottom vents. That's what I did by setting it on a open center 6x 30mm caster base.








My base but not my case & system. 

Here's link to more about castor base:





Phanteks Enthoo Primo - Page 2


Originally Posted by rfu3 I don't know what it is about cases with doors but even though I now don't often use an optical drive they still annoy me. I



forums.hexus.net


----------



## ciarlatano

learner-gr said:


> Hi there!
> Doyll or anyone else. What's your opinion about the Phanteks enthoo primo case?
> I found one used under 100 euros and i would like to know if it is a good idea to replace my enthoo pro M with it.
> I don't know the airflow of it because it doesn't have a hole on the front side like the enthoo pro M.


Loved my Primo with liquid cooling. Very well designed and thought out and really well built. BUT, for air cooling, I would have taken a Pro M over it. The design doesn't lend itself well to the type of airflow that best feeds air cooling. Plus, it's huge and looks dead empty without a couple of rads in it.


----------



## learner-gr

ciarlatano said:


> Loved my Primo with liquid cooling. Very well designed and thought out and really well built. BUT, for air cooling, I would have taken a Pro M over it. *The design doesn't lend itself well to the type of airflow that best feeds air cooling*. Plus, it's huge and looks dead empty without a couple of rads in it.


Thats what i'm afraid of. I see the enthoo pro M and think that it has more airflow through the front mesh opening. The only mod i',m thinking about it is to remove the psu shroud and cut one hole at the bottom to put there one 140mm fan for extra gpu airflow.


----------



## doyll

What ciarlatano said if you don't need the bigger case. 

But Primo does quite well. I had my i7-920 @ 4.3GHz with PH-TC14PE cooler in Primo under with not cooling issues. Only change was it set on 30mm open center castor base. I removed cover in center of front vent and put it back on because it only improved temps a couple degrees.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Im looking for a 120mm vortex/air channeling fan. Preferably rgb. I want to build a windtunnel horizontal pc case (like haf xb) Front double row 3x120mm(so 6x120 in total ) intake . Back 3x120 exhaust,top 3x120 mm exhaust. Now for the exhaust fans; it does not really matter ,i'll just put my Arctic p12rgbs there . B
ut the front intake fans must be air channeling / straight air column flowing fans ,to be effective . Normal PC fans (shooting air in 45degree wide angle ) stacked next to each other are making too much turbulance ,and air won't travel even 30cm forward. Silvetstone AP series are good ,but a bit loud for me (I prefer fluid bearings) . Cougar vortex,well I cant buy those in Hungary. Noctua nf F12 is overpriced and I need 6 (6x25 euro) . NB eloop-x would be the perfect intake fan ,but its also 26eur each. Any other tips for flow focused fans ?


----------



## ciarlatano

TeslaHUN said:


> Im looking for a 120mm vortex/air channeling fan. Preferably rgb. I want to build a windtunnel horizontal pc case (like haf xb) Front double row 3x120mm(so 6x120 in total ) intake . Back 3x120 exhaust,top 3x120 mm exhaust. Now for the exhaust fans; it does not really matter ,i'll just put my Arctic p12rgbs there . B
> ut the front intake fans must be air channeling / straight air column flowing fans ,to be effective . Normal PC fans (shooting air in 45degree wide angle ) stacked next to each other are making too much turbulance ,and air won't travel even 30cm forward. Silvetstone AP series are good ,but a bit loud for me (I prefer fluid bearings) . Cougar vortex,well I cant buy those in Hungary. Noctua nf F12 is overpriced and I need 6 (6x25 euro) . NB eloop-x would be the perfect intake fan ,but its also 26eur each. Any other tips for flow focused fans ?


Interested to see if anyone comes up with anything. You already named everything I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## Memmento Mori

arent the PH-F120T30 120mm Fan straight air? (i know its the same or even more expensive than already named expensive brands)...


----------



## doyll

I understand your pain trying to find straight flow fans. Have you considered using an airflow straightener?


----------



## TeslaHUN

doyll said:


> I understand your pain trying to find straight flow fans. Have you considered using an airflow straightener?


Can u link one ? You can attach it to any normal fan ? I guess it's some kind of grill like on these Bitfenix or Silverstone fans : YT smoke test +eyecandy


----------



## Dogzilla07

@TeslaHUN The new Corsair ML120/ML140 Elite have some degree of air straightening. (Sunon Maglev bearing motor + redesigned impeller with hopefully less resonance noise than the predecessor as well).


----------



## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Can u link one ? You can attach it to any normal fan ? I guess it's some kind of grill like on these Bitfenix or Silverstone fans : YT smoke test +eyecandy


I was thinking more of honeycomb aluminum like used in automotive engine intake airflow straightening. Here's video showing how it works:





Here's their website.


Honeycomb Airflow Straightener



Here is 140mm square 1/2" thick for $10.95. It's labeled "_120mm-airflow-honeycomb-without-hous120_ " but measurement spec is 140mm x 1/2" 








120mm Airflow straightener without housing






www.saxonpc.com





Here is 120mm made for fan for $14.68:
120mm Honeycomb Airflow Straightener 

Wish I could find it in bigger / bulk sizes, like 12" square to make straighteners for 4x 140mm fans. I have seen similar material used as light diffusers in 2' x 4' drop in ceiling lights in square and hexagon, but can't remember the thickness of vertical pieces were, so not sure how well it would work.


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

doyll said:


> Wish I could find it in bigger / bulk sizes, like 12" square


Performance MRP, also in the United States, sells pieces up to 12 x 12" and they've also an eBay sales channel. Corex is a UK source, though 62.5 x 62.5 cm is the smallest size I'm seeing at a glance.

I'm not having luck with quick searches on Ali but CN Honeycomb is one likely OEM. It looks like they do lengths up to 3 m. Polycore is another.


----------



## Raphie

That honeycomb would be great for ram cooling


----------



## TeslaHUN

It seems working well. Its like a radiator (acts as air straightener too ) . Im curious how much louder the fan becomes I dont like the sound that the fans make installed on the rear honeycomb in most pc cases. I tend to cut those out. But it might have different density/ pattern. Hard to judge front the video.
And would a non industrial (1200 rpm max) fan have enough presure to overcome the thick honeycomb ? Can't test it anyway myself. These are so special items ,one can only buy th in the West /overseas.
I might just try using 6arctic P12 from my collection ,and DIY some kind of straightener out of plastic straws.


----------



## Raphie

How would an air duct work?


----------



## doyll

Looks like 
Saxon Computers​6614 S.E. Charles​Portland, OR 97222​503-381-6790​is most likely place to get honeycomb squares for 120/140mm fans or honeycomb straighteners made for 120mm fan. They are in USA. 


Indeed, Corex in uk is supplier. But when I select only choice available I get material that expands into 1250x2500 sheet 10mm thick withj 1/2"/13mm holes. And when I select for order only option is unexpanded material, meaning end user has to expand it into honeycomb/hexagonal holes. How to expand, how to cut off strip of needed cels from unexpanded without expanding into 4x8 sheet seems problematic. Giving them a call might solve these problems. 


Short pieces of plastic straws are quite restrictive. Straw material is 2-3 times thicker than aluminum, plus circles of tube create 2 and 3 times more material for same amount of holes as aluminum honeycomb. Aluminum material in honeycomb straightener is quite thin with one thickness between holes. Straws are full circle on each hole with material on 3 sides of each area between each 3-hole triangles .. each flatt thickness in honeycomb is side in 2 hexagonal holes. Honeycomb air straightener is much less restrictive than straws or radiator.


----------



## learner-gr

In searching for an XL case i saw the Thermaltake Core X71 Tempered Glass.
Doyll and others what's your opinion for this case especially in use with air cooling?


----------



## ciarlatano

learner-gr said:


> In searching for an XL case i saw the Thermaltake Core X71 Tempered Glass.
> Doyll and others what's your opinion for this case especially in use with air cooling?


The materials are, shall we say....."suspect". It's not a very high quality case for the cost.

Also, why would you be looking at a case with a separate radiator chamber for air cooling? At that price point, you would be far better served by something like a Phanteks Enthoo Pro 2, Fractal Meshify 2 XL.


----------



## learner-gr

Ciarlato both the cases you posted are great (especially the enthoo pro 2) but they are very expensive. 
Found the X71 about 100 euro new. The others cost more than 200 euro.


----------



## ciarlatano

learner-gr said:


> Ciarlato both the cases you posted are great (especially the enthoo pro 2) but they are very expensive.
> Found the X71 about 100 euro new. The others cost more than 200 euro.


Can you post what vendors you would be buying from? In the US those three cases are all essentially the same price. Being able to see pricing for you would help with making recommendations.


----------



## learner-gr

Here in Greece the X71 is also have 240 euro but i found it from a user that sell it for low price and he didn't use it.


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

learner-gr said:


> Found the X71 about 100 euro new. The others cost more than 200 euro.


If around €100 for the case is an objective the Fractal Pop XL Air might be worth a look.


----------



## D-EJ915

Always Counterclockwise said:


> If around €100 for the case is an objective the Fractal Pop XL Air might be worth a look.


From reviews so far the fans in those aren't the most amazing in the world so just something to keep in mind (fractal fans are usually not that good though so no surprise to be honest)


----------



## doyll

learner-gr said:


> In searching for an XL case i saw the Thermaltake Core X71 Tempered Glass.
> Doyll and others what's your opinion for this case especially in use with air cooling?


What ciarlatano and D-EJ915 said. I used a couple of Thermalfake products many years ago. They were terrible!! And their customer support was even worse!

When looking at case prices keep in mind the quality of fans included. Some, like Phanteks come with good fans, and good ]fans cost $10-20 each. A $110 case with 3x worthless fans will end up costing you as much or more than $150 case that comes with 3x good fans.


----------



## ciarlatano

Always Counterclockwise said:


> If around €100 for the case is an objective the Fractal Pop XL Air might be worth a look.


Good call. I totally forgot that line existed.


----------



## Dogzilla07

https://www.idcooling.com/Product/detail/id/312/name/SE-207-XT%20SLIM



Check this baby out, it's time for Thermalright Silver Soul 135 and Noctua NH-D12L to fight for scraps xD. 135mm height, 7x6mm heatpipes, insane weight (more mass than Noctua, 200 grams more). Silver Soul 135 is only ~600g. This plus the new round-frame a12x25r is king now . And cause it's ID-Cooling the QC and machining is probably gonna be top notch


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

ciarlatano said:


> I totally forgot that line existed.


Since it launched two days ago I only found out about it yesterday. 



D-EJ915 said:


> (fractal fans are usually not that good though so no surprise to be honest)


Depends on the fan. The Silent and Dynamic X2 lines not so much, though the Dynamic X2 GP-18 does fairly well among 180 mm fans. Aspect, Prisma, and Venturi often P-Q chart decently. I don't need teh glowy but the Aspect 12 PWM, 14 PWM, and maybe Venturi HP-14 are fans I'd be interested to measure sometime, though I haven't had a reason to do so and their availability's been kind of restricted here (in stock but high shipping costs which price them above Kaze Flex 140, NF-A12x25, NF-A14, Silent Wings 3, TL-B12, and TL-C14, for example).

Haven't seen good measurements of the Pop XL Air yet but the Pop Air's thermally competitive in Gamers Nexus and TechPowerUp's tests. The fan difference between the two is four versus three Aspect 12s preinstalled, either of which should provide a starting point with greater noise-normalized airflow than the Dynamic X2s on the Defines and Meshifies. My main response to the Pops is, if there's going to be a shroud, I would prefer a more flexible version with an ability to reach bottom intakes like what Lian Li offers. The Lancool II Mesh isn't an XL case, though, and at least where I am the largest Torrent is closer to €200 than €100.

Not sure why Fractal likes to rivet shrouds rather than using screws so people can remove them without needing a drill. Zooming in on the Pop product photos it looks like still a riveted shroud, though I might email Fractal support to confirm.


----------



## D-EJ915

Always Counterclockwise said:


> Since it launched two days ago I only found out about it yesterday.
> 
> Depends on the fan. The Silent and Dynamic X2 lines not so much, though the Dynamic X2 GP-18 does fairly well among 180 mm fans. Aspect, Prisma, and Venturi often P-Q chart decently. I don't need teh glowy but the Aspect 12 PWM, 14 PWM, and maybe Venturi HP-14 are fans I'd be interested to measure sometime, though I haven't had a reason to do so and their availability's been kind of restricted here (in stock but high shipping costs which price them above Kaze Flex 140, NF-A12x25, NF-A14, Silent Wings 3, TL-B12, and TL-C14, for example).
> 
> Haven't seen good measurements of the Pop XL Air yet but the Pop Air's thermally competitive in Gamers Nexus and TechPowerUp's tests. The fan difference between the two is four versus three Aspect 12s preinstalled, either of which should provide a starting point with greater noise-normalized airflow than the Dynamic X2s on the Defines and Meshifies. My main response to the Pops is, if there's going to be a shroud, I would prefer a more flexible version with an ability to reach bottom intakes like what Lian Li offers. The Lancool II Mesh isn't an XL case, though, and at least where I am the largest Torrent is closer to €200 than €100.
> 
> Not sure why Fractal likes to rivet shrouds rather than using screws so people can remove them without needing a drill. Zooming in on the Pop product photos it looks like still a riveted shroud, though I might email Fractal support to confirm.


Your concept of competitive and mine must be different since it was in the bottom 25% of their chart. Also it doesn't matter if fractal sells aftermarket fans that are decent they aren't the fans that are included with the case so talking about them serves no purpose. I have several fractal cases (arc and define) in use right now from various time periods so I'm very well familiar with their stock fans, I just replaced some last month from 2 old builds because they died lol (from 2014). Tom over at OC3D also was surprised at how poor his testing results were and swapped some Corsair LL fans you can check his review for the actual data and him talking to fractal about it. I watched the GN video after OC3D because I was curious if it was an anomaly or not.


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

D-EJ915 said:


> it was in the bottom 25% of their chart


Could you cite your source, please? It also appears the Aspect 12 is being erroneously conflated with some other fan.


----------



## D-EJ915

Always Counterclockwise said:


> Could you cite your source, please? It also appears the Aspect 12 is being erroneously conflated with some other fan.


Gamers nexus review 21:12. You specifically mentioned their review so I went back to look.

At 23:28 it shows stock vs standardized fans.

Here you can see like Doyll said, Phanteks cases come with nice fans and the Fractal ones do not except the 2 Torrent cases. The pop case is alright and these days a decent deal but in the spirit of the thread to improve cooling it'd be dishonest to not mention the deficiency of its stock configuration.


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

D-EJ915 said:


> Gamers nexus review 21:12.


Thanks. Given a look across the 10 different rankings in GN's review with some attention to the °C spreads producing the rankings I think you may well find dismissing it as being in the lower 25% at 21:12 is something of an oversimplification.

It's not a Torrent or a Lancool II Mesh, yeah, but the Pop XL Air is more in line with a €100 target. Be cautious, too, of conflating fan and case performance. The Pop Air's mostly closed shroud has some predictable consequences for GPU thermals which probably also transfer, for the most part, to the XL Air . The Aspect 12 actually P-Q charts to similar noise-normalized airflow as the Dynamic X2 GP-18 and Prisma AL-18 at typical operating points (this isn't uncommon; conventional forum wisdom about noise-normalized fan is―unsurprisingly I think―more reflective of typical performance differences across many kinds of fans than it is among the best performing fans). It's likely the Torrent's fairly low flow impedance provides much of its advantage and, from the available data on the Lancool II, its shroud and side intake look favorable to GPU fans.

(I haven't seen any data on it but I would also speculate there might be less of a penalty from long GPU obstruction with larger diameter intake fans, not that this applies to GN's test setup.)


----------



## Owterspace

All of your thermals depend on fan selection. He gave my Meshify C not a great rating in the GPU dept.. but my 3070 TI idles in the low to mid twenties with my case fans spinning at 700 revs. I am not using exhaust fans, and GPU loads in the 60s-70s. Less with [email protected]


----------



## HalongPort

Just wanted to drop Igor's measurements for the new Silent Wings 4.








be quiet! Silent Wings 4 (Pro) 120 mm Case Fan Review - When the name says it all | Part 1 | Page 5 | igor'sLAB


The be quiet! Silent Wings 4 (Pro) 120 mm have already been extensively reviewed in the media, but today we finally have the long-awaited test. We chose the 120mm case fans as the first part…




www.igorslab.de












be quiet! Silent Wings 4 (Pro) 140 mm Case Fan Review - When the name says it all | Part 2 | Page 5 | igor'sLAB


Also the be quiet! Silent Wings 4 (Pro) 140 mm were already advertised by marketing weeks ago, but today there is finally the test as part 2 in direct comparison with the models with 120 mm diameter.




www.igorslab.de


----------



## doyll

Based on quick comparison of igorsLAB testing be quiet! Silent Wings 4, Thermalright TL-B12 Extreme and Phanteks T30 on case and 60mm radiator igorsLAB testing be quiet! Silent Wings 4 do well new Silent Wings 4 are nice!


----------



## N2Gaming

So being not that smart about all this air cooling and what case fans are best for the lowest price vs performance I figured some of y'all in here might want to shed some light on the subject.

Recently got a Lian Li Lan Party ii Mesh Performance and am running it stock for now. Thinking I should add or upgrade and add some fans.

Not sure if I need Air flow fans or Pressure flow fans. I'm not water cooling and don't intend to in the future. I'd like it to be as quiet as possible.

only other fans in the system atm are the cpu cooler fans from the Noctua NH-D215 Chromax fans.

Case has two 140mm fans on the front and the 120mm fan on the rear.

I was thinking to replacing the rear 120 with a 140 and adding more 140's through out the case just not sure where or which fans to get.

Any suggestions that won't break the bank?


----------



## Melcar

Can that case support a rear 140mm? Looking at the spec sheet it seems it only supports 120mm fans in the rear panel. The rear panel seems open enough, so I would run with no active exhaust fans there and just use front intakes. Don't know how good (or bad) the stock fans are, but 2x140mm front intakes should be enough.
As for my fan recommendations, I like the Thermalright TL-C14 and TL-C14X but they may not be available in your region or hard to get. Scythe Kaze Flex 140 are also good if a bit loud. Arctic P14 are also good budget options.


----------



## Dreams-Visions

Hi folks, I have one of the Liani Li cases and had a question about fan arrangement. 

At present, I have 10 total fans, 3 attached to radiators, 1 attached to the rear. 6 fans (bottom, side) are functioning as intakes. The top and rear are set as exhaust. Delta vs room temp is about 2C when doing non-intensive work/applications. 

Do you all think setting the top 3 fans as intake (so 9 total intake fans and 1x exhaust) as well would be a better configuration for performance? Or would any change be minor given the number of fans?

Note: I tried to set the rear fan to exhaust but the cable was too short to reach the fan hub. I'd probably need to find/purchase an extension cable if turning the rear fan around is a good play. Pic for reference. TY!


----------



## TeslaHUN

Dreams-Visions said:


> At present, I have 10 total fans, 3 attached to radiators, 1 attached to the rear. 6 fans (bottom, side) are functioning as intakes. The top and rear are set as exhaust. Delta vs room temp is about 2C when doing non-intensive work/applic


Pretty system !
Single 360rad is inadequate for a CPU+GPU loop . Without adding a 2nd rad ,you can't really improve the temps.


----------



## Dreams-Visions

TeslaHUN said:


> Pretty system !
> Single 360rad is inadequate for a CPU+GPU loop . Without adding a 2nd rad ,you can't really improve the temps.


there are 3 rads in the system 

3x 360's, one of every array of fans. Oh, and 2 pumps. one in the front, one in the back.


----------



## N2Gaming

Melcar said:


> Can that case support a rear 140mm? Looking at the spec sheet it seems it only supports 120mm fans in the rear panel. The rear panel seems open enough, so I would run with no active exhaust fans there and just use front intakes. Don't know how good (or bad) the stock fans are, but 2x140mm front intakes should be enough.
> As for my fan recommendations, I like the Thermalright TL-C14 and TL-C14X but they may not be available in your region or hard to get. Scythe Kaze Flex 140 are also good if a bit loud. Arctic P14 are also good budget options.


 I don’t know what made me think a 140mm would fit in the rear. Still did not pull the case back out of the area it is resting in to confirm this.


----------



## doyll

N2Gaming said:


> So being not that smart about all this air cooling and what case fans are best for the lowest price vs performance I figured some of y'all in here might want to shed some light on the subject.
> 
> Recently got a Lian Li Lan Party ii Mesh Performance and am running it stock for now. Thinking I should add or upgrade and add some fans.
> 
> Not sure if I need Air flow fans or Pressure flow fans. I'm not water cooling and don't intend to in the future. I'd like it to be as quiet as possible.
> 
> only other fans in the system atm are the cpu cooler fans from the Noctua NH-D215 Chromax fans.
> 
> Case has two 140mm fans on the front and the 120mm fan on the rear.
> 
> I was thinking to replacing the rear 120 with a 140 and adding more 140's through out the case just not sure where or which fans to get.
> 
> Any suggestions that won't break the bank?


Same as Melcar said.
Arctic P14 aren not as good as TL-C14/TL-C14X, but are quite good but are easier to find and lower priced.
Thermalright TL-C14 are usually available on Amazon.com. That said, I just looked and can't find any.


----------



## N2Gaming

Yeah I looked for those and came up with fans in the $170 Range. No thanks on those at that price. 

Are the Arctic P14 fans better than the Arctic F14 fans when it comes to moving air quietly?


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

doyll said:


> That said, I just looked and can't find any.


I noticed that a few days ago as well. Some looking around suggested generally reduced availability, which might be a signal the TL-C14 is getting replaced by the TL-B14 but might just be a supply thing. TL-C14L and TL-C14X remain available.


----------



## doyll

N2Gaming said:


> Yeah I looked for those and came up with fans in the $170 Range. No thanks on those at that price.
> 
> Are the Arctic P14 fans better than the Arctic F14 fans when it comes to moving air quietly?


Arctic P14 are definitely way better than F14. P14 is rated 2.4mm H2O @ 1700rpm while F14 is rated 1.6mm H2O @ 1350rpm. 

To understand why requires understanding how airflow works. Airflow is created by differences in pressure. High pressure areas move into lower pressure areas trying to equalize pressure. Restrictions to airflow (grill, filter, cables, etc) not only lower the air flow area but even more importantly they create turbulence in airflow thus lowering airflow as much or more than grill or filter does. Pressure differential is what overcomes these restrictions/resistance and gives us the airflow we need in our computers. 

All fan ratings are with at full speed. Airflow rating is with no obstructions / resistance. Fan on a pedestal in middle of open space. Not at all like we use them

Static pressure rating is determined by mounting fan on a sealed container and measuring how much pressure it can build inside of that container at full speed. Again, not a way we use fans. 

To help understand how little pressure our computer fans can build I converted atmospheric pressure at sea level and 5 feet above sea level and sea level in to mm H20. End result is there is 1.836 mm H2O less pressure on your chest/neck than on your feet (5 feet lower) when standing at sea level. That's how extremely little power our fans have. 

I know that's a lot of info compressed into a few sentences, so if you want more explanation just ask.

Short answer is Arcitc P series fans are cheapest fans available that will do a decent job.


----------



## Dogzilla07

doyll said:


> Short answer is Arcitc P series fans are cheapest fans available that will do a decent job.


SilentiumPC Fluctus looks like a promising contender, but we really need more tests (VSG, GamersNexus, Der8auer) on it:









SilentiumPC Fluctus 120 PWM: "Miracle" fan from the Fera 5 - HWCooling.net


SilentiumPC Fluctus 120 PWM in detailSilentiumPC presents the Fluctus 120 PWM as its very best fan. But, to beat the whirring Sigma Pro 120 PWM and the obviously sketchy Sigma Pro Corona RGB 120 is relatively simple. The company’s marketing, however, talks about psychoacoustic optimizations. And...




www.hwcooling.net


----------



## N2Gaming

Thank you doyll


----------



## DiceAir

Sorry for the long post

So lately been having some minor cooling issues with my gpu where the hotspot is a bit hot to where it gwent over 100-105C. I kind of sorted that out by using zip ties to push the heatsink and pcb together without voiding warranty.Also my backplate on the gpu is getting extremely hot. Now the reason for me posting here is when I game I can feel my back fan is exhausting a lot of air out of the case making me rethink my cooling setup. Maybe the back fan is not exhausting air fast enough and also intake fans is not good enough. I have the following case and setup

Phantek enthoo pro (non window)
3x front fans (2x cougar vortex pwm, 1x corsair sp120L 3000rpm version) as intake
1x rear (corsair af120L) as exhaust
top (fractal design s36 as exhaust)
Bottom stock 140mm fan that came with case

My specs:
Palit gamerock 3080ti
b550 steel legend
ryzen 5800x.
32 (2x16Gb) gskill ripjaw 3600mhz
Sounb blaster ae-5 sound card at the very bottom slot.

Now I was thinking of getting a better case for my system to get better cooling as this case is a bit old. I'm in south africa so options for cases and cooling is limited will link a few online stores that you can have a look at

Chassis (titan-ice.co.za)
South African Online Computer Store - Buy PCs, Laptops & more! - Wootware.co.za





Evetech Custom Computer Systems, Gaming Computers, Desktops Gaming PCs







www.evetech.co.za





In south african rands looking to spend about max R2500 on a case and fans. Again I know options are limited but if you can suggest me a case that does exceptionally well and cost more than R2500 then I will go for it but don't want to spend more than R2500 if i don't have to.

I was thinking of going with this case. Reviews, features and cooling looks to be good and not expensive. Antec DP503 Mid-Tower Gaming Case - Best Deal - South Africa (evetech.co.za)

The case is going to the company I work for and they giving me R1000 including fans. The case will not be used for gaming so they only need like 2 fans front 1 exhaust and the pc will be using air cooler. I'm not worried about colling for that pc but I can take 1x front fan, move bottom fan to back and take the AF120L then I can use them in the new case without having to buy new fans.


----------



## TeslaHUN

Enthoo pro is still a good case. I would not waste money on a newer one. Your fan setup is perfect. I bet the high VGA temp is becouse the weak cooler design on the Palit card . Try removing the side panel . If temps are the same ,then you can try repaste the GPU . If temps drop a lot with removed panel (I doubt it ) then a new case would help. And undervolting that 3080ti (@0,9V for example) could significally reduce its temp.


----------



## bebius

+1 for repasting the GPU. I have noticed that cheaper implementations usually have inferior quality thermal pastes that lose their initial characteristics sooner.


----------



## doyll

What has already been posted. 

Once we figure out why we might be able to suggest some ways to lower temps. 

I see a lot of peeps making statement about more case exhaust flow than case intake for or more intake case airflow than exhaust. Reality is case flows out the same amount of air it flow in. Airflow = fluid dynamics = what flows in must flow out. Maximum cause airflow is dictated by maximum possible flow of intake or exhaust. Having more intake than exhaust means case only flows as much as exhaust will flow. Only advantage of more intake flow potential than exhaust is it helps keep slight positive pressure in case so dust doesn't leak in. Keep in mind using both cases intake and case exhaust fans has similar effect as push/pull on radiator or single tower cooler, push/push on twin tower, etc. Most of the time proper placement of only intake fans (and blocking openings near intakes so air they push in has to flow thru case instead of leaking out and going in circles) creates plenty of case airflow. 

Best way to determine if case is flowing air properly is to monitor case airflow air temps in critical places; like in front of coolers (CPU & GPU), near RAM, etc. and comparing those temps to ambient air temp entering case. Ideal is same temp but in reality it's usually 3-5c warmer. Link below to a basic guide of case airflow might be of interest. You may have read it, it's 5th post in this thread. 








* * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan...


Got tired of posting instructions and guides over and over and over, so decided to start a thread for them. Please do not post unnecessarily as it will make it harder for others to find what they are looking for. This thread is not for opinions of the data or tutorials. If you have questions...




www.overclock.net


----------



## DiceAir

TeslaHUN said:


> Enthoo pro is still a good case. I would not waste money on a newer one. Your fan setup is perfect. I bet the high VGA temp is becouse the weak cooler design on the Palit card . Try removing the side panel . If temps are the same ,then you can try repaste the GPU . If temps drop a lot with removed panel (I doubt it ) then a new case would help. And undervolting that 3080ti (@0,9V for example) could significally reduce its temp.





bebius said:


> +1 for repasting the GPU. I have noticed that cheaper implementations usually have inferior quality thermal pastes that lose their initial characteristics sooner.



I have already undervolted my gpu and that made a huge difference. Went from 375-400w usage down to 300w without losing much performance. Actually my frames are more consistent due to lower temps and more stable clock speed. usually it was about 1890-1920mhz and sometimes dropping to liek 1800mhz @ over 1V now with my 0.9v 1860mhz clock speed it's 100% fine. My hot spot went from 90-95C and rising with the zip tie mod to about 90C max wen stress test and max 85C on cyberpunk before in cyberpunk it went to 95C.

I can't really repaste gpu as it's under warranty but RMA the card will mean I don't have a pc at all for a week or so.

One thing I forgot to mention I also removed all my Pci-e Covers long time ago and that made temps a bit better


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> What has already been posted.
> 
> Once we figure out why we might be able to suggest some ways to lower temps.
> 
> I see a lot of peeps making statement about more case exhaust flow than case intake for or more intake case airflow than exhaust. Reality is case flows out the same amount of air it flow in. Airflow = fluid dynamics = what flows in must flow out. Maximum cause airflow is dictated by maximum possible flow of intake or exhaust. Having more intake than exhaust means case only flows as much as exhaust will flow. Only advantage of more intake flow potential than exhaust is it helps keep slight positive pressure in case so dust doesn't leak in. Keep in mind using both cases intake and case exhaust fans has similar effect as push/pull on radiator or single tower cooler, push/push on twin tower, etc. Most of the time proper placement of only intake fans (and blocking openings near intakes so air they push in has to flow thru case instead of leaking out and going in circles) creates plenty of case airflow.
> 
> Best way to determine if case is flowing air properly is to monitor case airflow air temps in critical places; like in front of coolers (CPU & GPU), near RAM, etc. and comparing those temps to ambient air temp entering case. Ideal is same temp but in reality it's usually 3-5c warmer. Link below to a basic guide of case airflow might be of interest. You may have read it, it's 5th post in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan...
> 
> 
> Got tired of posting instructions and guides over and over and over, so decided to start a thread for them. Please do not post unnecessarily as it will make it harder for others to find what they are looking for. This thread is not for opinions of the data or tutorials. If you have questions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.overclock.net



I have 2x phanteks PH-F140HP II fans Phanteks Innovative Computer Hardware Design from my old phanteks cooler than i might reuse for either a new case or current enthoo pro case. What i can do is replace the bottom 2 fans (cougar vortex pwm COUGAR Vortex PWM Fan - COUGAR (cougargaming.com) ) I will also see if I can replace the front top fan (corsair sp120L 3000rpm version) that I added in the 5.25 inch bays with one of them because it might be easier to replace and much lower noise level while moving lots of air.

what do you think of that idea?


----------



## doyll

I think it's worth trying. PH-F140HP II are same motor and impeller as in PH-F140MP. 

Last I checked PH-F140HP II in stock are very few, and I don't think there will be any more. Once current stock is sold they will no longer be available.


----------



## DiceAir

doyll said:


> I think it's worth trying. PH-F140HP II are same motor and impeller as in PH-F140MP.
> 
> Last I checked PH-F140HP II in stock are very few, and I don't think there will be any more. Once current stock is sold they will no longer be available.


seems like the cougar has a little bit better airflow 70.5 vs 68.1 and air pressure 2.2 vs 1.62. i know I can swap out the very top fan in front of the case (sp120L) with the phanteks one as it will have way less noise and possible that it moves more air. The sp120L might move more air at high speeds but i never run it at that speed and don't need static pressure cause nothing in front of the fan so thus the phantek will move more air


----------



## DiceAir

Here is an update to what I've done now. one of my phanteks ph-f140HP II is faulty as it's making a rattling noise, so I only used the one fan as exhaust. It did help a bit but now thinking of rearanging my fans again because I can also swap out fans from my work pc as I don't need the extra cooling. My work pc is as follows.

i5-12400 with mugen 5 cpu cooler, my old air 540 case (not doing case swap!!) with the following fan layout.

2x 120mm cougar vortex pwm front and 1x cougar vortex 120mm rear.

That 12400 doesn't run hot and in day to day task run max about 50C. My plan now is either swap the rear 120mm from my work pc to the Corsair 120L and use that one in my gaming pc as intake front top. That means I will have 3x cougar vortex pwm in front as intake and for sure the cougar vortex has less noise and move more air than the corsair AF120L.


----------



## ozlay

Any cons to using aluminum foil tape for sealing a case?


----------



## Owterspace

ozlay said:


> Any cons to using aluminum foil tape for sealing a case?


Shiny side in or out?


----------



## doyll

ozlay said:


> Any cons to using aluminum foil tape for sealing a case?


It will work fine. Shine might not look good, and be careful not to cut yourself while applying it.


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

ozlay said:


> Any cons to using aluminum foil tape for sealing a case?


Every time I've tried sealing it's either had no effect, within measurement accuracy, or raised temperatures 1–5 °C in stress testing (something like 0.008 °C/W of total build power max depending on the component, DDR not evaluated as I don't have sticks with temperature sensors). Occasionally temperature declines are reported but the largest I've seen here was 0.6 °C, which appeared very likely to be within that poster's routine measurement to measurement variation and therefore may not indicate any actual improvement. So I wouldn't buy fancy tape just for sealing unless 1) testing with painter's, masking, or whatever other tape you already have around shows meaningful thermal benefit or 2) it's for looks and the build can handle some temperature increase.

I have found more structural sealing can sometimes reduce noise, at least in one case whose intake fan mounts give more scope than usual for vibration, but the ~1.5 dB(A) max reduction I got ended up being a noise-normalized increase in temperatures.


----------



## doyll

Always Counterclockwise said:


> Every time I've tried sealing it's either had no effect, within measurement accuracy, or raised temperatures 1–5 °C in stress testing (something like 0.008 °C/W of total build power max depending on the component, DDR not evaluated as I don't have sticks with temperature sensors). Occasionally temperature declines are reported but the largest I've seen here was 0.6 °C, which appeared very likely to be within that poster's routine measurement to measurement variation and therefore may not indicate any actual improvement. So I wouldn't buy fancy tape just for sealing unless 1) testing with painter's, masking, or whatever other tape you already have around shows meaningful thermal benefit or 2) it's for looks and the build can handle some temperature increase.
> 
> I have found more structural sealing can sometimes reduce noise, at least in one case whose intake fan mounts give more scope than usual for vibration, but the ~1.5 dB(A) max reduction I got ended up being a noise-normalized increase in temperatures.


Obvously there will be little to no thermal benefit in a setup with equal number of intake and exhaust vents because exhaust vent area will limit case airflow. A case with less exhaust vent area than intake vent area then case airflow is limited by mount of air exhaust area can flow. My builds with only intakes have about 2:3 ratio more empty exhaust vents than intakes with fans..
I seal openings not covered by intake fans in case sides those fans are mounted in, not all openings in case. I tape off openings in fan mounting panel between front of case motherboard compartment not covered by intake fans. What this sealing does is stop air these fans are flowing into case from leaking their cool intake air around in between front grill and intake fans.

Could you please explain fan and vent configuration in systems you found blocking / taping off openings hurt cooling? I ask because I honestly can't see how sealing / blocking holes in case near intake fans to stop intake air from leaking out instead of flowing on thru case or even worse going out to be drawn back into intake fan instead of flowing on thru case. This is especially of cases with fan mounting panel inside of case with an intake compartment behind intake fans and case front venting where intake air leaking our simple ends up going in circle, not thru case.

Edit:
I keep repeating to monitor air temp flowing over component / into cooler versus room ambient (even better temp of air entering intake vent/s). Monitor iar temp at different fan speeds. It's not uncommon for high fan speeds to be higher or same as a few hundred rpm slower. Airflow is a fickled witch that often does things we do not predict. Newer thru PCB GPU coolers changes things as well. With single side GPU coolers removing unused PCIe covers in back almost always improved GPU temps and never hurt them. But these newer thru PCB GPUs coolers do not always like more airflow below GPU. I don't know why, but like I said, airflow is a fickled witch.


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

doyll said:


> Could you please explain fan and vent configuration in systems you found blocking / taping off openings hurt cooling?


Bog standard ATX, neutral to mildly disadvantageous results in build thread posts you've replied to previously, unsurprisingly transitioning to larger temperature increases in higher power builds. Not quite sure how you're defining vents but similar to the 2:3 ratio you mention, either by case open area or fan mounts, same as most ATX cases these days.

From what I can tell from the combination of fan characterization, temperature-RPM-noise operating point measurements, and simple airflow deflection probing the hypotheses of short-radius, passive recirculation and detrimental leakage aren't well supported. It looks more like gaps around front intake fans may contribute additional airflow and that leakage is modestly net beneficial. Probably doesn't hold for all configurations in all cases, quite a few builds may not run enough power to really tell, and the few measurements which are available tend not to be sufficiently controlled to give clear answers. Hence the investigative documentation I've published in this forum as well as some of what I've touched on procedurally elsewhere on OCN.

Short-radius, forced recirculation—such as when people set adjacent top fans to intake and exhaust—does seem pretty well documented. But a typical front intake, tower cooler, horizontal GPU, bottom PSU, no top or other bottom fan ATX mid-tower build lacks obvious flow geometry motivating similarly steep pressure gradients.



doyll said:


> I don't know why


What I've measured suggests some amount of forced recirculation around the GPU. Unsurprising, really, and probably doesn't have anything to do with passthrough designs (definitely not aware of any through PCB designs and attempts to do much with backplate cooling are infrequent).


----------



## learner-gr

Hi there.
I have an *enthoo pro m *case (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front) and i would like to ask if i would see any difference if i replaced it with an *enthoo pro full tower* (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front and one 1 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the bottom) or with an *enthoo primo* (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front and one 1 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the bottom) I found an enthoo pro full tower and an enthoo primo used for 60 euros.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## doyll

Always Counterclockwise said:


> Bog standard ATX, neutral to mildly disadvantageous results in build thread posts you've replied to previously, unsurprisingly transitioning to larger temperature increases in higher power builds. Not quite sure how you're defining vents but similar to the 2:3 ratio you mention, either by case open area or fan mounts, same as most ATX cases these days.
> 
> From what I can tell from the combination of fan characterization, temperature-RPM-noise operating point measurements, and simple airflow deflection probing the hypotheses of short-radius, passive recirculation and detrimental leakage aren't well supported. It looks more like gaps around front intake fans may contribute additional airflow and that leakage is modestly net beneficial. Probably doesn't hold for all configurations in all cases, quite a few builds may not run enough power to really tell, and the few measurements which are available tend not to be sufficiently controlled to give clear answers. Hence the investigative documentation I've published in this forum as well as some of what I've touched on procedurally elsewhere on OCN.
> 
> Short-radius, forced recirculation—such as when people set adjacent top fans to intake and exhaust—does seem pretty well documented. But a typical front intake, tower cooler, horizontal GPU, bottom PSU, no top or other bottom fan ATX mid-tower build lacks obvious flow geometry motivating similarly steep pressure gradients.
> 
> What I've measured suggests some amount of forced recirculation around the GPU. Unsurprising, really, and probably doesn't have anything to do with passthrough designs (definitely not aware of any through PCB designs and attempts to do much with backplate cooling are infrequent).


When I asked


> "Could you please explain fan and vent configuration in systems you found blocking / taping off openings hurt cooling?"


I was asking for​case brand and model,​fan brand, model and placement,​case, cooler, GPU, etc. fan speed to temp,​I was asking for information to be able to compare specific system configuration and hopefully understand why your results are so different from other like myself who have had good results using my suggestions and setup guidelines.


----------



## ciarlatano

learner-gr said:


> Hi there.
> I have an *enthoo pro m *case (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front) and i would like to ask if i would see any difference if i replaced it with an *enthoo pro full tower* (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front and one 1 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the bottom) or with an *enthoo primo* (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front and one 1 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the bottom) I found an enthoo pro full tower and an enthoo primo used for 60 euros.
> Thanks in advance.


While the Pro and Primo have more niceties, the Pro M actually has the best airflow of the three.


----------



## Always Counterclockwise

ciarlatano said:


> While the Pro and Primo have more niceties, the Pro M actually has the best airflow of the three.


+1. €60's an attractive used price but it shouldn't be hard to see how the Pro's drive bays and Primo's solid front obstruct airflow. Fractal Torrent's a good large case airflow reference, Lian Li Lancool III for airflow and niceties. Not suggesting them as Pro M alternatives in this situation (both are likely to be difficult to find used and, if available, probably with much of a markdown) but they're two of the best measuring cases I'm aware of at the moment and therefore useful to gauging potential build decisions.

If there's something in particular you're looking to change let us know.



Spoiler: doyll being doyll, yet again






doyll said:


> I was asking for information to be able to compare specific system configuration and hopefully understand why your results are so different from other like myself who have had good results using my suggestions and setup guidelines.


My take on this form of goalpost shifting remains as two months ago. As with other baseless objections, insults, and protestations I'd lief put effort towards something constructive.


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## learner-gr

Thanks all of you for your valuable replies!
I didn't know the Lian Li Lancool III case. It looks very good.


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## doyll

learner-gr said:


> Hi there.
> I have an *enthoo pro m *case (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front) and i would like to ask if i would see any difference if i replaced it with an *enthoo pro full tower* (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front and one 1 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the bottom) or with an *enthoo primo* (with 2 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the front and one 1 x 140 silent wings 3 high speed pwm on the bottom) I found an enthoo pro full tower and an enthoo primo used for 60 euros.
> Thanks in advance.


Sorry for the delay. Wrote this and forgot to post it. 

Enthoo Pro you have is 2x 140mm or 2x 120mm front fans.
Enthoo Pro M uses 2x 140mm or 2x 120mm front fans (3x 120mm with ODD cages removed). Slightly bigger ft vent.
Enthoo Pro 2 will can hold 3x 140mm or 4x 120mm. Much bigger front vent area.
Enthoo Primo is a huge case with less front venting than your Pro has. It's so tall it won't fit under a desk Primo bottom venting is marginal without longer feet.
Of 3 you mentioned Enthoo Pro M is slightly better than Enthoo Pro. Unless I got Enthoo Pro M free I wouldn't change from Enthoo Pro. Both use 2x 140mm front fans with Pro M having slightly bigger front vent. Not worth changing, but if buying for new build and had a choice of the 2, then I would get Pro M. New build would be Enthoo Pro 2. That said, the Eclipse series has some very good airflow designs at lower prices. 
I would change from Enthoo Pro to Enthoo Pro 2 if price was right.


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## learner-gr

Thanks for the reply Doyll.
I have the enthoo pro m, so i will stay with it until i find an enthoo pro 2 with good price.


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## Melcar

Entho Pro 2 seems like a "bit too much" case. I have an older Enthoo Pro and I think the Eclipse P600s makes for a better upgrade path, if I were in the market to upgrade cases. I do hate the fixed PSU shroud on the P600s. If you are in need of dual systems and/or have lots of 3.5/2.5" drives the Pro 2 is enticing however. The Pro 2 has better front I/O as well (a powered USB hub on your desk is far more convenient in my opinion).


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## TeslaHUN

Get a Torrent ot Torrent Compact and u are good for the next 20years


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## doyll

Indeed, Enthoo Pro 2 is much bigger than Enthoo Pro
Enthoo Pro 2 is 240 mm x 580 mm x 560 mm (W x H x D )​Enthoo Pro is 235 mm x 535 mm x 550 mm​Enthoo Pro M is 235 mm x 480 mm x 500 mm (W x H x D )​Pro 2 is just 5mm wider, 10mm deeper but 45mm taller than Pro,​and it is 5mm wider, but 60mm deeper and 100mm taller than Pro M​All 3 have good rear venting for good front to back airflow.

Eclipes P600S is 240 mm x 520 mm x 510 mm (W x H x D) 
Pro 2 is same width, 60mm wider and 50mm taller than P600S.

I wonder what effect on rigidity removing PSU shroud by drilling out the pop-rivets would have on case? I did this on one Eclipse (can't remember with one it was) and while it was not as rigid it was not a problem.


​


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## DiceAir

Just to recap my case is enthoo pro with 360mm aio on top as exhaust. I was thinking of putting a divider on top of my rtx 3080 ti so that at least 1 of the front fans can direct airflow towards the gpu for the bottom fan also to help push all the air towards the gpu. I will test over the weekend with some old carboard that I have just as a test for now to see if it will help gpu temps and possibly cpu temps as well.

I get the idea that front top fan from the aio is pulling too much air away from the gpu so it doesn't get enough fresh air. Do you think it's a good idea to try it out?


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## TeslaHUN

Melcar said:


> Entho Pro 2 seems like a "bit too much" case. I have an older Enthoo Pro and I think the Eclipse P600s makes for a better upgrade path, if I were in the market to upgrade cases. I do hate the fixed PSU shroud on the P600s. If you are in need of dual systems and/or have lots of 3.5/2.5" drives the Pro 2 is enticing however. The Pro 2 has better front I/O as well (a powered USB hub on your desk is far more convenient in my opinion).


This PCI slot shroud would work much better :


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## doyll

DiceAir said:


> Just to recap my case is enthoo pro with 360mm aio on top as exhaust. I was thinking of putting a divider on top of my rtx 3080 ti so that at least 1 of the front fans can direct airflow towards the gpu for the bottom fan also to help push all the air towards the gpu. I will test over the weekend with some old carboard that I have just as a test for now to see if it will help gpu temps and possibly cpu temps as well.
> 
> I get the idea that front top fan from the aio is pulling too much air away from the gpu so it doesn't get enough fresh air. Do you think it's a good idea to try it out?


Dividing between GPU and CPU / radiator in top would have 1x 140mm fan supplying 3x 120mm fans on your 360mm CLC. That means your 3x 120mm fans on CLC have only 1x 140mm fan of airflow. 1x 140mm fan cannot supply as much air as 3x 120mm fans can flow. 

Video about GPU shroud at 10:32 says "_case is 42.6, outside is at 23.3_". 
At 11:50 he says "keeping the case a little cooler".
*Air inside of case is 20,3c hotter than room!!!!*

This means his case airflow is horrible!. So anything he does is likely to improve case airflow and lower temps. 

Every degree warmer air is cooling component translates into same degrees hotter that component is. So if we lower 

He make a really nice shroud but it uses a single 92mm intake fan rated 29.72cfm into supply GPU with 2x fans rated approx. 23-28cfm each for a total of about 50cfm. Shroud is limiting GPU airflow to less than 29.7cfm assuming he didn't cut that area out of back of case. 

Your Enthoo Pro has 2x 120mm bottom vents. I would remove PSU shroud, install a couple of 120mm bottom intake fans 

Set case on 1" blocks to greatly increases airflow area to bottom fans.

Removing PSU shroud and adding bottom intakes will give your case 66.6% more airflow than you currently have.

But your temps are fine now. Sure I would remove PSU shroud, add bottom intakes and set case on open center 32-50mm caster base, but only because I have fans and base in hand.


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## Owterspace

TeslaHUN said:


> Get a Torrent ot Torrent Compact and u are good for the next 20years


It’s an awesome case.


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## TeslaHUN

Finally a good wind tunnel


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## Always Counterclockwise

Dawid said:


> But it's about a degree better than it was before and all it took was adding 12 extra fans. Very worth it.




I feel like giving be quiet! a cookie for coming up with a marketing stunt that's actually mildly entertaining.


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## ozlay

TeslaHUN said:


> Finally a good wind tunnel


Normally your second fan in a wind tunnel spins the opposite direction. So it might have worked better with a mix of fans spinning in the opposite direction. It would be interested to see how it would perform with some reverse fans and or with fans flipped. However it probably wouldn't do much of anything.


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## TeslaHUN

ozlay said:


> Normally your second fan in a wind tunnel spins the opposite direction. So it might have worked better with a mix of fans spinning in the opposite direction. It would be interested to see how it would perform with some reverse fans and or with fans flipped. However it probably wouldn't do much of anything.


It (normal+reverse fans stacked) was tested before by an other youtuber :Major Hardware


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## doyll

Stackings does not increase airflow but will increase pressure if there is airflow straightener between them or they spin in opposite directions. What this all means is on a thick radiator push/pull (stacked on each side of rad) increases ability to overcome resistance thus increases airflow. This is more evident at low speeds. 

Tester using twin tower cooler was kinda stupid. (This is why stock stacked fans spin in opposite directions.)
Comparing stock fan against stacking is stupid. 
Using stock fan in middle supplied airflow to both fin stacks.
Stacking unit only supplied airflow to front in pack Back stack didn't even have a cooling.
So comparing the 2 means nothing .. shows how little tester tester understand about basics of airflow.


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## Kana Chan

Would something like this be useful? 60mm fan or possibly an 80mm fan?


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## TeslaHUN

Kana Chan said:


> Would something like this be useful? 60mm fan or possibly an 80mm fan?


I think it depends on ur case / airflow setup . Sometimes it help, sometimes it does not .
Btw you can install bigger fans ,if u put them outside.
I experimented with :
12cm fan







and 14cm too :







It lowered my 1080TI's temp by 4-5C , and reduced my max VGA's fanspeed by 2-300 rpm.


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## doyll

Kana Chan said:


> View attachment 2574213
> 
> Would something like this be useful? 60mm fan or possibly an 80mm fan?


Yes it could be helpful. But it's only one 80-90mm fan of airflow to a GPU with 2 or 3 80-90mm fans. That is 1/2 or 1/3 of airflow GPU fans are flowing. Case intakes need to be flowing at least as much airflow (I prefer 25-33% more) as component coolers use. This means if GPU has 3x 80mm fans and CPU cooler uses 1x 140mm fan (or 2x on twin tower) case needs 1x 140mm intake for CPU and 2x 120mm intakes for GPU plus another 140mm or 2x 120mm intake fans to have the 25-30% more case airflow than cooler airflow. Also keep in mind case needs to have at least 1.33-1.5 times more exhaust vent area than vent area of intake fans for air intake fans are flowing into case to flow out of. Case maximum airflow is the lessor vent area of intake vs exhaust. If we have 6x 140mm intake fans and only 3x 120mm exhaust vent then case an only flow up to 3x exhaust vents of airflow .. and case vent grills only flow 40-70% as much air as vent same size with no gril.


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## TeslaHUN

link removed


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## doyll

Thanks


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## TeslaHUN

Lol . Its educating and entertaining cooling content . Did you lost your sense of humor ? I know you hate youtubers ,but it might be intresting to others.


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## doyll

Please read opening post this thread. Many posters here have not but many have.


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## TeslaHUN

Ok ,didn't know there is no freedom of speech here ,only if we agree with you. Tell me how can I delete the post ,and I wont disturb your world anymore.


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## doyll

TeslaHUN said:


> Ok ,didn't know there is no freedom of speech here ,only if we agree with you. Tell me how can I delete the post ,and I wont disturb your world anymore.


Really? You have posted many times. his is only time I've complained and asked you to change a post. Delta Electronic's THD2048HT 48 volt fan cannot realistically be used in our computers, therefore it not applicable to thread. 
All I'm asking is stick to topic here. THD2048HT might be of interest to others. Post it under it's own topic and we will find out. Tanks for your understanding. 

As for removing; you can't, but you can use 'edit' and remove content of post. 
I suspect you know how to edit, but just in case it's easy. 
Scroll over 3 vertical dots in upper right of post. Same line as post count and post time.​There are 3 choices; ' Edit', 'Report' & 'Show only this user'.​Select 'Edit' and remove all text.​Click 'Save' bottom right.​Job done.

Thanks mate! I appreciate your removing it.


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## CynicalUnicorn

doyll said:


> his is only time I've complained and asked you to change a post.


And this is the only time I'll ask you to please not backseat moderate.

Can a normal person use this fan in a computer? No. Can an insane person? Oh yeah absolutely. 12V to 48V boost converters for cars do exist and they output several hundred watts. It's niche but there's an application for a *forty-eight volt fan* in an overclocked PC.


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## doyll

CynicalUnicorn said:


> And this is the only time I'll ask you to please not backseat moderate.
> 
> Can a normal person use this fan in a computer? No. Can an insane person? Oh yeah absolutely. 12V to 48V boost converters for cars do exist and they output several hundred watts. It's niche but there's an application for a *forty-eight volt fan* in an overclocked PC.


Agreed, it is a niche that might be used. 
Agreed, 12v to 48v converters do exist.

I started this tread years ago to help members with common computer cooling and airflow issues. In opening post it asked members to only post things relevant to this thread. 48v fan rated 78dBa, 7400rpm, costing over a hundred dollars is not something users of this thread are interested in. 

I was not trying to moderate anyone. I was only trying to keep my long thread on topic. Sorry if that is overstepping. I know how hard moderating can be. Thank you for helping overclock with our fine forum.


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## ciarlatano

doyll said:


> Agreed, it is a niche that might be used.
> Agreed, 12v to 48v converters do exist.
> 
> I started this tread years ago to help members with common computer cooling and airflow issues. In opening post it asked members to only post things relevant to this thread. 48v fan rated 78dBa, 7400rpm, costing over a hundred dollars is not something users of this thread are interested in.
> 
> I was not trying to moderate anyone. I was only trying to keep my long thread on topic. Sorry if that is overstepping. I know how hard moderating can be. Thank you for helping overclock with our fine forum.


I happen to agree with @doyll that a post about a 48V 180mm industrial fan is not on topic or in the spirit of this particular thread. However, since there may be a niche for it, no reason for it not to have it's own thread.


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## TurboJ81

The links on page one don't work for me. They all take me to the same page, page #1.

I would like to find the posts about making ducting, in case someone is able to point it out to me. Thanks.


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## doyll

TurboJ81 said:


> The links on page one don't work for me. They all take me to the same page, page #1.
> 
> I would like to find the posts about making ducting, in case someone is able to point it out to me. Thanks.


Sorry links don't work. They all worked before OC changed forum software many years ago lost all the linking. I spent several weeks several hours a day setting up links so they all worked. A few years later OC again changed forum software killing links again. I don't have time to spend the hours needed to fix them every couple years. 

Good news is number list on left side is post number. You can manually page to page with with that post number is on and scowl down to that number and you have that topic. If that doesn't work post again with number of post you can't find and I'll help you figure it out.


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