# Logitech G402 Hyperion Fury Gaming Mouse review - by Ino



## dangerteeth

Great review. Don't know what logitech is thinking though. This is a cheaper g502 with a slightly different shape and a worse sensor. Don't think this will be moving many units.


----------



## Ino.

Well it is cheaper and significantly lighter than the G502, so better suited for FPS players. The worse sensor part is only relative to the 3366 though, because other than the relatively low PCS the AM010 is fine.

I don't know more about the decision making at Logitech though, so I can't comment how or why they decided to go that way.


----------



## deepor

There's something cut off at the very end of your post (in the "Conclusion" section).


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## popups

There is a reason why Skylit hasn't been on here. Apparently, Ino doesn't get treated the same / follows the rules. Also the same reason why I haven't been on here for a long time.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> There's something cut off at the very end of your post (in the "Conclusion" section).


Fixed, thanks. Don't know what caused that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There is a reason why Skylit hasn't been on here. Apparently, Ino doesn't get treated the same / follows the rules. Also the same reason why I haven't been on here for a long time.


Answered in PM.


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## Atavax

you do that picture cropping with a g402?







i'm kidding!


----------



## HAGGARD

While I personally have no interest in this mouse (mainly because I can't see how it is an upgrade to a G400), I must say the technology is interesting. At high speeds, nobody is honestly looking for accurate tracking in terms of reading the hand movements. Simply because those hand movements themselves are not intended/possible to control physically at fast motion to start with. So the idea of using a component that creates digitally perfected representations of those movements (if that's how the accelerometer works) is intriguing. And it apparently stays mostly accurate as far as motion speed is concerned (slight acceleration). Would be interesting to know to what extend older sensors are compatible with the technology, if at all. First we have to wait for more detailed explanation of how it exactly works of course.

That said, I'm not a fan of premature reviews. Could be all sorts of issues with it. This is marketing more than it helps people make an educated purchase.


----------



## fellcbr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> *Acceleration Test*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is accel, but at least it is consistent. Not a big deal imo.


Hum.. did you talk with Logitech about this? is there really consistent accel on it or is it just your sample?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There is a reason why Skylit hasn't been on here. Apparently, Ino doesn't get treated the same / follows the rules. Also the same reason why I haven't been on here for a long time.


Not knowing what happened i just see your post as flame, not contributing to anything..


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## maxvons

Is the right side similar to the G502? Can you have both fingers under it? Could you take a pic of how you hold it on the right side? Thanks.


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## Derp

I had hoped you would be more critical of the existence of the gyroscope. Sure it would make sense with the MLT04 but that sensor was EOL years ago. The 3310 doesn't need it and neither does the 3366 so you should be using either of those without this gimmick.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fellcbr1*
> 
> Not knowing what happened i just see your post as flame, not contributing to anything..


Why do you comment toward me negatively when you do not know the going ons within this forum?

I was just warning of the issues that will occur very soon... So don't be shocked. As they say, "another one bites the dust."


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> That said, I'm not a fan of premature reviews. Could be all sorts of issues with it. This is marketing more than it helps people make an educated purchase.


I've used the mouse over a period of more than one month...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fellcbr1*
> 
> Hum.. did you talk with Logitech about this? is there really consistent accel on it or is it just your sample?


Yes, and it is within tolerance. It's less pronounced on slower swipes, I'm going like 4.5-5 m/s in that video.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> Is the right side similar to the G502? Can you have both fingers under it? Could you take a pic of how you hold it on the right side? Thanks.


It's possible. Will take a pic soon.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I had hoped you would be more critical of the existence of the gyroscope. Sure it would make sense with the MLT04 but that sensor was EOL years ago. The 3310 doesn't need it and neither does the 3366 so you should be using either of those without this gimmick.


I'm not critical because it works damn well. Why should I condemn a new solution that works this well. Like I said, I didn't feel a difference when I didn't know that it had the accelerometer thing.

I don't see how this could possibly be viewed as something negative. If it had lots of issues or would fail miserably maybe, but it just works.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'm not critical because it works damn well. Why should I condemn a new solution that works this well. Like I said, I didn't feel a difference when I didn't know that it had the accelerometer thing.
> 
> I don't see how this could possibly be viewed as something negative. If it had lots of issues or would fail miserably maybe, but it just works.


Because it's not needed at all if Logitech used a different and very much available sensor. The fact that the combination is working well is impressive but if there is no need then why bother? How impressive can something really be when it's unneeded?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Because it's not needed at all if Logitech used a different and very much available sensor. The fact that the combination is working well is impressive but if there is no need then why bother? How impressive can something really be when it's unneeded?


Totally price and availability issues.

The 3366 is such a hi end sensor they won't use it for this group of people.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Because it's not needed at all if Logitech used a different and very much available sensor. The fact that the combination is working well is impressive but if there is no need then why bother? How impressive can something really be when it's unneeded?


maybe its cheaper, so if it works well, why criticize it. We have no idea why logitech chose it over the 3366. If they both work very well, no need to criticize.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Totally price and availability issues.
> 
> The 3366 is such a hi end sensor they won't use it for this group of people.


And the 3310? It's in many mice from the competition at this price point. And it doesn't need a gyro in order to track above 2.5 m/s.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> maybe its cheaper, so if it works well, why criticize it. We have no idea why logitech chose it over the 3366. If they both work very well, no need to criticize.


They purposely gimped themselves tracking speed wise in order to develop a sophisticated bandaid. How about you don't gimp yourself in the first place?


----------



## ChevChelios

color me impressed

assuming I can sell off my 502 to someone, there's a pretty high chance that I will buy this .... how much is it gonna be ?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> how much is it gonna be ?


$60. Amazon has a page up for it already.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Because it's not needed at all if Logitech used a different and very much available sensor. The fact that the combination is working well is impressive but if there is no need then why bother? How impressive can something really be when it's unneeded?


Maybe I'm looking at this from a different perspective, but as an engineer I always favor progress over stagnation. And every new principle solution to a task is worth evaluating to me. Sure it would not be "needed" but it can be done and now proves to be just as reliable. What if this solution is cheaper in the long run? Good for the company. It also sets Logitech apart from the competition. Brands them as innovators. Etc.
Like I said, I don't know the business decision behind it, but I just admire innovation. Necessary or not


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## saint19

So, It's work the 60 USD for change a TT Saphira right?


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I've used the mouse over a period of more than one month...


Well, that's even worse, isn't it? Logitech may allow you to be as objective as possible, but it's not like you are going to seriously criticize anything about a product you in some way or form helped develop. For various reasons. And you didn't. And trying to judge the technology itself still is premature. I mean, there is no word about how it actually works, so we don't even have implications of what it could do to tracking.

Don't get me wrong though, I don't think it's such a big deal. You stated you were affiliated with the product, so people that read your review can take your stuff with a grain of salt or not.


----------



## the1onewolf

Huh.
I was not expecting this to be honest.


----------



## ChevChelios

k, so tracking speed/fusion aside, how good/accurate/etc. is this implementation of this sensor compared to 3310 or 3366 ? Same/worse/slightly worse ? Is it exactly the same as it was in the G100s or different (better ?) ?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Well, that's even worse, isn't it? Logitech may allow you to be as objective as possible, but it's not like you are going to seriously criticize anything about a product you in some way or form helped develop. For various reasons. And you didn't. And trying to judge the technology itself still is premature. I mean, there is no word about how it actually works, so we don't even have implications of what it could do to tracking.
> 
> Don't get me wrong though, I don't think it's such a big deal. You stated you were affiliated with the product, so people that read your review can take your stuff with a grain of salt or not.


Well, of course we don't know details, what I meant is that it just worked in the time I used it. That's all. What more can a cursor do than move where you want it to?
I only state my observations of course, details can only come from Logitech.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Maybe I'm looking at this from a different perspective, but as an engineer I always favor progress over stagnation. And every new principle solution to a task is worth evaluating to me. Sure it would not be "needed" but it can be done and now proves to be just as reliable. What if this solution is cheaper in the long run? Good for the company. It also sets Logitech apart from the competition. Brands them as innovators. Etc.
> Like I said, I don't know the business decision behind it, but I just admire innovation. Necessary or not


Innovation without progress or improvement is a waste of time and is ultimately a negative in my opinion. A good example of this is AMD and it's bulldozer release.

I also don't see how Logitech saving money by developing a trick to use sub par sensors in their mice while selling them for the same price is any good for consumers. Sure it's good for Logitech, but I don't work for Logitech.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Innovation without progress or improvement is a waste of time and is ultimately a negative in my opinion. A good example of this is AMD and it's bulldozer release.
> 
> I also don't see how Logitech saving money by developing a trick to use sub par sensors in their mice while selling them for the same price is any good for consumers. Sure it's good for Logitech, but I don't work for Logitech.


Yes of course it is good for Logitech and there's the reason why they do it. If it delivers the same performance in a cheaper way your margin of profit increases. But maybe that's not the only benefit, who knows?

From a consumer perspective it's probably unneccesary to have anything else than the standard AM010 for 95% of all people.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> And the 3310? It's in many mice from the competition at this price point. And it doesn't need a gyro in order to track above 2.5 m/s.
> 
> They purposely gimped themselves tracking speed wise in order to develop a sophisticated bandaid. How about you don't gimp yourself in the first place?


They already have their G100S sensors. So they are going to use their stock instead of placing an order for the highly used 3310. It is likely the stock of 3310 sensor is already being taken by the other companies. The 3366 is too expensive to use in a G402( that is why I refereed to the G402 as a cheaper/inferior sibling).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> assuming I can sell off my 502 to someone, there's a pretty high chance that I will buy this .... how much is it gonna be ?


I would buy your G502 as long as it isn't expensive. You can totally throw that junk my way. The sensor is so bad on that mouse you won't want it anyway. Don't worry, as long as it works, I won't send it back to you. I can live with that very horrible, terrible, disgusting sensor forever. It is so bad you won't even want to sell it to me; you will force me to take it for free and you will pay the shipping.


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Well, of course we don't know details, what I meant is that it just worked in the time I used it. That's all. What more can a cursor do than move where you want it to?
> I only state my observations of course, details can only come from Logitech.


Oh, the stuff cursors can do!
Seriously though, I get you, just saying there is more to be evaluated (polling, especially at high movement speeds, latency, long-term durability, performance on different surfaces, acceleration amount/consistency, does it have native CPI registry of the G100S?, will the additional DSPing induce more "smoothing"-related stuff?). I'm just curious about the technology and its implications. I do share your opinion that progress and innovation is refreshing in the industry, and the "effectively no malfunction" implication seems big. Can you say anything about how this affects the perfect control speeds? You said in your review there's a point where counts divert and then the accelerometer takes over. Does that mean there is only a small m/s threshold where speed drawbacks like inconsistent count report rate/inaccurate tracking/sensor-sided positive or negative acceleration kick in, i. e. the mouse behaves linearly accurate throughout most speeds?


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## Koen3d

Hey Ino. What are your impressions with middle button (scroll wheel) click feeling? I've been looking forward to replacing my cheap mouse but I need a responsive middle button with similar feeling as main buttons and Logitech seems like the only company that doesn't use this terrible design where scroll wheel's axle lays directly on the switch. But what worries me with G402 is that they replaced standard switch like in MX518/G400 with something that looks kinda pathetic







So is it as bad as it looks like? Also, do you have any photo of mouse internals with scroll wheel bracket assembly in place?


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## popups

*@HAGGARD*

Think of it as a ADNS-9500 when the G402's sensor transitions to the other processor. Like a Zowie dropping counts with the MCU, but in the reverse. In theory it is worse than something like the 3310. By the way, I think the G100S sensor is not like the 3050, its a different thing, nor like the 3090.

Let's be straight forward. The 3366 is the best sensor ever made. It's the best sensor available. Only Logitech has rights to it. If you want the best sensor in today's market you will buy a G502 because you have to. If you want something lighter and cheaper than the G502 you will buy the G402. You get what you pay for. Honestly, I think the G402 is over priced (not like other mice are not).


----------



## a_ak57

I'd rather they innovate a replacement for the G9 instead of stuff like this. >_>


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## thuNDa

those "mousetester" graphs look very(VERY) good tbh.
Cpate stated that it also doesn't have any smoothing in the low to mid DPI-steps, so if there is no prediction either, the sensor should be pretty good even tho it's still a low-cost thing(and the gyroscope,accelerometer usage sounds still rediculous).


----------



## toopz

Great mouse but shame about the sensor choice.
I was really looking forward for this mouse as my G400 is dying.
Looks like I have to pick up G502 but its heavier
Maybe I will give a shot to zowie FK1 but its out of stock everywhere in the uk.

Only one question to Ino as you have both mice.
Zowie FK1 or G402. which one has better sensor feeling in game. If you know what I mean.
Cheers


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> those "mousetester" graphs look very(VERY) good tbh.
> Cpate stated that it also doesn't have any smoothing in the low to mid DPI-steps, so if there is no prediction either, the sensor should be pretty good even tho it's still a low-cost thing.


It should be fine at below 3m/s and 2000 CPI. It's nothing special without the Fusion ability, Just another G100S mouse with a different shell (so to speak).

*@toopz*
I guess you would (if you are that type of person) buy a FK1 to reward Zowie for their commitment to mice such as the FK1. Instead of rewarding Logitech by buying the G402. The G502 has a lot of features for casual users, no issue buying that mouse for that purpose.


----------



## ChevChelios

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> k, so tracking speed/fusion aside, how good/accurate/etc. is this implementation of this sensor compared to 3310 or 3366 ? Same/worse/slightly worse ? Is it exactly the same as it was in the G100s or different (better ?) ?


bumping this a bit

sorry


----------



## deepor

Can this contraption of several parts actually be cheaper than the single 3366 part doing everything by itself? I really can't imagine that happening. If the 3366 actually is more expensive, it might not be caused by the manufacturing costs and maybe there's added licensing costs or something?

If the 3366 isn't really more expensive, I wonder if Logitech chose to build the G402 like this for some actual upside of the sensor's performance. Is that possible? There were still one or two guys that weren't satisfied by the 3366 and this thing here might feel better for them?


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Well, that's even worse, isn't it? Logitech may allow you to be as objective as possible, but it's not like you are going to seriously criticize anything about a product you in some way or form helped develop. For various reasons. And you didn't. And trying to judge the technology itself still is premature. I mean, there is no word about how it actually works, so we don't even have implications of what it could do to tracking.
> 
> Don't get me wrong though, I don't think it's such a big deal. You stated you were affiliated with the product, so people that read your review can take your stuff with a grain of salt or not.


well, every videogame reviewer almost always gets an early copy of the game for free. A reviewer getting a free copy of the product they review is almost necessary for the review. While there might be very slight bias in favor of Logitech, i think it is better then the release of the g502 when there was only 2 or 3 people with a g502 on the forum, none of which were experienced reviewing mice and with conflicting experiences with the mouse and there was confusion over it until an experienced reviewer got an early copy and was able to test it himself.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It should be fine at below 3m/s and 2000 CPI. It's nothing special without the Fusion ability, Just another G100S mouse with a different shell (so to speak).


if the paint test shows good precision even up to 1600dpi(which i can't recognise on the downscaled pics here in the forum), then there is little more you can ask for, when there is also no prediction, no smoothing, low LOD and a high maxtracking speed.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> if the paint test shows good precision even up to 1600dpi(which i can't recognise on the downscaled pics here in the forum), then there is little more you can ask for, when there is also no prediction, no smoothing, low LOD and a high maxtracking speed.


In Firefox, middle click and it'll open as a pure image in a new tab where it should show without scaling.

In Chrome, right-click and choose "open image in new tab".


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> In Firefox, middle click and it'll open as a pure image in a new tab where it should show without scaling.
> 
> In Chrome, right-click and choose "open image in new tab".


oki doki.









edit: doesn't work, unless it's still very small, and doesn't let you see the actual pixels in paint.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> oki doki.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: doesn't work, unless it's still very small, and doesn't let you see the actual pixels in paint.


Works for me! Here's the URLs of the full-size pictures that open for me and perhaps clicking on those will work for you:

http://cdn.overclock.net/a/a0/a0d00d90_BzU1Ckq.png
http://cdn.overclock.net/9/90/901c5df0_86Egwt2.png
http://cdn.overclock.net/2/2e/2e1ad219_UWI8bvo.png
http://cdn.overclock.net/2/24/2498d935_hZVzc3b.png


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> if the paint test shows good precision even up to 1600dpi(which i can't recognise on the downscaled pics here in the forum), then there is little more you can ask for, when there is also no prediction, no smoothing, low LOD and a high maxtracking speed.


The mouse will work similar to the G100S because it uses the same sensor. Once you get to ~2.5m/s it will change it's behavior. So moving slowly (for paint drawings) will show G100S type results. Playing a game is a different environment -- it will (likely) act/feel differently than on the desktop. If you are a person that flicks a mouse the lower (inherent) IPS of this sensor can be problematic as the sensor transitions into the off sensor accelerometer. Would that be unacceptable? That is up to you. I foresee quick changes in directions, going from above 2.5m/s to the other direction, being an "issue." Like it was with Zowie mice.

Does the accelerometer chip work regardless of drivers? Is it always ON?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Can you say anything about how this affects the perfect control speeds? You said in your review there's a point where counts divert and then the accelerometer takes over. Does that mean there is only a small m/s threshold where speed drawbacks like inconsistent count report rate/inaccurate tracking/sensor-sided positive or negative acceleration kick in, i. e. the mouse behaves linearly accurate throughout most speeds?


Well, I can say that I didn't feel anything negative. The diversion is only in the mousetester screens, but I could not feel that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koen3d*
> 
> Hey Ino. What are your impressions with middle button (scroll wheel) click feeling? I've been looking forward to replacing my cheap mouse but I need a responsive middle button with similar feeling as main buttons and Logitech seems like the only company that doesn't use this terrible design where scroll wheel's axle lays directly on the switch. But what worries me with G402 is that they replaced standard switch like in MX518/G400 with something that looks kinda pathetic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So is it as bad as it looks like? Also, do you have any photo of mouse internals with scroll wheel bracket assembly in place?


The scroll wheel sits in the upper shell, the axle does not lay on the switch at all. The switch for it is a tact switch. I like the feeling of the MMB with it, but it is significantly harder than the main mouse buttons, doesn't feel like a normal button at all imo.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

I'm getting an impression that the only reason people are even talking about this mouse is that it's Logitech. Is there one good reason to choose this over the G400?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> I'm getting an impression that the only reason people are even talking about this mouse is that it's Logitech. Is there one good reason to choose this over the G400?


More convenient buttons for casual use and more CPI settings.

I am still using a 1800 CPI ADNS-3090. I would be using a 3310 if the shell design wasn't flawed.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> I'm getting an impression that the only reason people are even talking about this mouse is that it's Logitech. Is there one good reason to choose this over the G400?


if you are happy with your g400. no.


----------



## ChevChelios

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erecshyrinol*
> 
> I'm getting an impression that the only reason people are even talking about this mouse is that it's Logitech. Is there one good reason to choose this over the G400?


assuming the G400 has the same wheel as the G5 (looks very similar/identical on the pics) - I would never ever get a G400 atm, since I loathe pressing the wheel on the G5 (scrolling it ain't too great either)

also, this has more side buttons, that's actually good to some









+ some rubber grips on the sides here ? I think .. those are generally nice in my experience, better then just plastic

also how does the G100s sensor compare to the G400 ? excluding the max speed since Fusion seems to have fixed that for G100s


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> excluding the max speed since Fusion seems to have fixed that for G100s


The fusion engine is a software dependent feature.

Correction: It isn't reliant on software, its reliant on the external chip.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The fusion engine is a software dependent feature. If you are the type to not use drivers (for whatever reason) you will not like the limited malfunction speed.


No, it isn't. The fusion engine is on by default without any drivers installed.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> No, it isn't. The fusion engine is on by default without any drivers installed.


I misunderstood. The marketing speak doesn't compute well in my head. They should just state the accelerometer chip is always on unless turned off with the drivers. "Fusion Engine" sounds like a software reliant feature.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Yes, and it is within tolerance. It's less pronounced on slower swipes, I'm going like 4.5-5 m/s in that video.


Argh, crap. My desire just became whole lot weaker


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Argh, crap. My desire just became whole lot weaker


You want a 3366.

If you disabled the accelerometer you won't have that issue, but then you have lower malformation speed.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> You want a 3366.
> 
> If you disable the accelerometer you won't have that issue, but hen you have lower malformation speed.


0 accel is kind of important to me.and I have 2 g100s so no thanks.

Isn't delta zero guarantee zero accel?


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> 0 accel is kind of important to me.
> 
> Isn't delta zero guarantee zero accel?


That's what I thought too







. But I guess as long as it's consistent...


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> That's what I thought too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . But I guess as long as it's consistent...


Guess it's time for me to hoard up those g400s.

This is huge dealbreaker


----------



## oxidized

it's a pity they didn't mount the 3366 on this, from Ino's review it doesn't look bad at all, but i'll probably wait for something else


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> 0 accel is kind of important to me.
> 
> Isn't delta zero guarantee zero accel?


No sensor so far is 100% accurate. Not even the 3366. I also might have made minor movement "error" as you see my aim go up during the fast swipe. It has the same (or less) amount of accel as the G400 had.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> No sensor so far is 100% accurate. Not even the 3366. I also might have made minor movement "error" as you see my aim go up during the fast swipe. It has the same (or less) amount of accel as the G400 had.


We'll we do really need reproducible mouse test metrics, all those "it's there but... "Is driving me nuts.

Still thanks for the reply and review.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> We'll we do really need reproducible mouse test metrics, all those "it's there but... "Is driving me nuts.
> 
> Still thanks for the reply and review.


Sure, having a robot move the mouse would be more ideal. All I can provide is my "it never affected my gameplay"


----------



## Atavax

we need to steal logitech's robotic arm!


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> All I can provide is my "it never affected my gameplay"


So you have always been bad?


----------



## Atavax

oh no he didn't!


----------



## Blashyrkh

the malfunction speed of the g502 is 300 ips...is it inches per second? so 7,5 metres/s right?
the g402 is more than 500ips, so it's more than 10 m/s...

am i doing a wrong calculation?


----------



## TK421

Is there any noticeable change of how the cursor behaves after the gyro kicks in?


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Is there any noticeable change of how the cursor behaves after the gyro kicks in?


not that ino noticed


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blashyrkh*
> 
> the malfunction speed of the g502 is 300 ips...is it inches per second? so 7,5 metres/s right?
> the g402 is more than 500ips, so it's more than 10 m/s...
> 
> am i doing a wrong calculation?


correct. 7.6 m/s for the g502, 12.7m/s for the g402, both way higher then needed.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> correct. 7.6 m/s for the g502, 12.7m/s for the g402, both way higher then needed.


People cannot forget that there is extra processing done after 2000 CPI. Which would indicate that the 3366 has a higher pixel density than this sensor.


----------



## Blashyrkh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> correct. 7.6 m/s for the g502, 12.7m/s for the g402, both way higher then needed.


while playing at 36cm/360°(900 dpi) i reached the malfunction speed 4 / 5 times with the proteus....
could it be possible? i use the MM600 hard mat...

i tried the enotus test on my mat:


is it normal?


----------



## doomleika

what's the shell material?

Is it same design if g502? (2 rubber at side, uv handled buttons, and anti sweat palm shell?)


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> we need to steal logitech's robotic arm!


That thing was badass! hahaha


----------



## duhizy

i'll give it a shot when it hits stores, but it doesnt seem to be much of an upgrade from a g400. I can't see any reason why someone would choose this over an FK1 or an avior, especially when there are many more mice to come this season. That being said, the shape, clicks, weight are all good, will wait for more reviews before condemning something because the sensor is an older model with added features.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blashyrkh*
> 
> while playing at 36cm/360°(900 dpi) i reached the malfunction speed 4 / 5 times with the proteus....
> could it be possible? i use the MM600 hard mat...
> 
> i tried the enotus test on my mat:
> 
> 
> is it normal?


not only is it not normal, over 13.77 m/s might not be humanly possible and if it is humanly possible, I don't see it happening on that small of a mousepad. I'm guessing the DPI of the mouse is significantly higher then 800 dpi, and that is causing enotus's speed estimate to be inaccurate. If enotus thinks you're using 800 dpi but you're really using 2400 dpi, then enotus would estimate that you're moving 3 times faster then you actually are.


----------



## ChevChelios

Quote:


> I can't see any reason *why someone would choose this over an FK1 or an avior*, especially when there are many more mice to come this season.


uh, people who don't use ambidextrous mice ? nevermind that zowie doesn't have software at all, you cannot remap a single button







, that's just about the biggest dealbreaker in a mouse for me

also - many mice are coming ? such as ?







I thought it was only G402


----------



## duhizy

Ino, what is the surface like near the thumb area? Is that just a plastic shell? Why in gods name is there only rubber on one side......


----------



## dogroll

So when we can expect a new deathadder/zowie mice using the new 3366 sensor? I don't like the look of these new logitech spaceship mice at all. Looks like junk.


----------



## duhizy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dogroll*
> 
> So when we can expect a new deathadder/zowie mice using the new 3366 sensor? I don't like the look of these new logitech spaceship mice at all. Looks like junk.


I think it's a fair assumption that we can expect 2014 razor updates and possibly SS. There was also that rumour of an FK2 on one of the FK1 threads here, just a rumour still tho. None of which will have a 3366, however, a variation of the 3310 is more likely.


----------



## Blashyrkh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> not only is it not normal, over 13.77 m/s might not be humanly possible and if it is humanly possible, I don't see it happening on that small of a mousepad. I'm guessing the DPI of the mouse is significantly higher then 800 dpi, and that is causing enotus's speed estimate to be inaccurate. If enotus thinks you're using 800 dpi but you're really using 2400 dpi, then enotus would estimate that you're moving 3 times faster then you actually are.


damn you are right, the dpi is 2000 in windows, i didn't switched....i reached 3,7m/s with the right dpi

but still, it's strange i reached the malfunction speed in game, and i think it was actually not possible...how could it be? maybe the problem is the 40g acceleration limit?i think that would be strange too


----------



## dogroll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> I think it's a fair assumption that we can expect 2014 razor updates and possibly SS. There was also that rumour of an FK2 on one of the FK1 threads here, just a rumour still tho. None of which will have a 3366, however, a variation of the 3310 is more likely.


Ugh, I haven't been keeping up with this stuff for a while. The DA2013 and Zowie EC1 is using the avago 3090 sensor right I think, so what is so good about the 3366 and why won't the new Razer/ss/zowie have it?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> Ino, what is the surface like near the thumb area? Is that just a plastic shell? Why in gods name is there only rubber on one side......


It's a rubber coating, but a very grippy one. The same material as on the right side.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> No sensor so far is 100% accurate. Not even the 3366. I also might have made minor movement "error" as you see my aim go up during the fast swipe. It has the same (or less) amount of accel as the G400 had.


Why not set m_pitch to 0?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blashyrkh*
> 
> damn you are right, the dpi is 2000 in windows, i didn't switched....i reached 3,7m/s with the right dpi
> 
> but still, it's strange i reached the malfunction speed in game, and i think it was actually not possible...how could it be? maybe the problem is the 40g acceleration limit?i think that would be strange too


Some people have reported malfunctions with the G502, not necessarily because of a too high speed. It's not clear where it comes from.


----------



## Dylan Nails

so just another ****ty right handed mouse by logitech as always with a good sensor, cant make one single good ambidextrous mouse.


----------



## trUte

A hybrid sensor with acceleration doesn't interest me at all. I wish I knew why they weren't using the 3366 in this mouse. I was hoping it would also have a thumb groove/lip like the g400 so it would be easier to quickly grip the mouse in a very consistent way every time. I wish I had the skills to put the sensor from my g502 into one of my g400 shells.


----------



## semantics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> we need to steal logitech's robotic arm!
> 
> 
> 
> That thing was badass! hahaha
Click to expand...

Well i'd think any gaming mouse company would have some sort of robot or tool in order to help replication conditions for testing. Ofc this assume they do this kind of testing.

The concept for the mouse is interesting, i wonder what the calculus is for cost of mouse, personally i don't care how they do it as long as it's accurate. The acceleration is a bit disappointing but it being a consistent acceleration is acceptable, with consistency you can train yourself to know it.


----------



## bigjw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Some people have reported malfunctions with the G502, not necessarily because of a too high speed. It's not clear where it comes from.


I have also made the g502 malfunction, but with 45cm/360 and it was at about 2m/s after I had been swiping as fast as I could to try make it malfunction and couldn't, very strange.

Anyway, better stock up on g400s if you don't want the stupid sniper button. also how is the cord compared to the g400s?


----------



## Axaion

That sniper button and two top buttons are everything that is wrong with this world.

I hope they paid you enough to not scream out "Hey, some people dont actually like having a button that rubs against your fingers that you cant do anything about"

Good review, shame about the buttons, they finally get rid of the lip, and they decide to add that lmao


----------



## kkit0410

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> That thing was badass! hahaha


Mine control robot arm, attach to your arm and assit your movement.


----------



## ronal

This mouse will be a major flop. I can't possibly see myself paying $60-$70 for a mouse with G100s sensor in it.


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trUte*
> 
> A hybrid sensor with acceleration doesn't interest me at all. I wish I knew why they weren't using the 3366 in this mouse. I was hoping it would also have a thumb groove/lip like the g400 so it would be easier to quickly grip the mouse in a very consistent way every time. I wish I had the skills to put the sensor from my g502 into one of my g400 shells.


I say good riddance to the potato shape (g400/s). Thank goodness there's no 'lip' on the outside where your ring/pinky fingers sit.

But I will agree the 3366 would have been a better choice.


----------



## doors1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> This mouse will be a major flop. I can't possibly see myself paying $60-$70 for a mouse with G100s sensor in it.


+ 1


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> + 1


-1. You fools haven't even tried the mouse yet and are making assumptions on how bad it will be? Do you guys still think the Sun revolves around the Earth or something?

---

BTW Ino, how are you doing that accel test? I want to know how you are swiping that mouse.


----------



## r0ach

I'm actually very interested in this mouse for a variety of reasons:

1) The G100s sensor had some of the most snappy, unprocessed, lag-free movement of any sensor released in a long time. The only thing that killed the mouse for me was not being able to use 800 DPI & 1000hz, and being forced to use 1000 DPI 500hz instead.

2) I really liked the G502 sensor at first, until I realized it has some kind of horrific software or firmware problem where if I save the exact same settings to all 3 profiles (800 DPI & 1000hz), then uninstall the software, each profile feels vastly different. Other times, profiles would get stuck at 500hz even when I set it to 1000hz. There's something under the surface of that mouse that just does't work right and I just don't trust it anymore when it feels completely different each time I save settings to it. The very first time I loaded the software and saved settings it was completely perfect, and then ever since I altered the original profile saves, it gives me randomly different cursor movement each time..

3) I never even noticed malfunction on the G100s with it's 2.7 meters per second max speed. Someone that uses 400 DPI and a cloth mouse pad probably would, but like I said, I use 800 DPI.

Having said that, I have no idea how this gyroscope integration works. To me, it sounds like anytime you hit malfunction speed, the mouse would switch to some kind of interpolated movement? Why would I want that? Just having that feature enabled probably also adds overhead to the mouse, (i.e. processing lag or bizarre feeling movement).

If you can permanently disable the gyroscope nonsense, set mouse settings to 800 DPI 1000hz, then uninstall the software after, I will definitely buy one.


----------



## Nilizum

If you dig in the other G402 thread, CPate says that there is an option to disable the Fusion stuff, but says from a user's standpoint it is a silly thing to do and serves no benefit unless you're trying to test max tracking speeds.


----------



## ihaveapc

Can you test the acceleration without the accelerometer ? I suspect the acceleration comes from that.


----------



## semantics

I assume when it's turned on the accelerometer keeps track of your speed and once you reach the sensors expected malfunction speed it uses the data from the accelerometer to try to guess a best fit line. And the smoothing isn't that noticeable as it's all done in the mouse with that arm processor. I suspect the processor is also how they are getting better results out of the same g100s sensor making it reliable up to 2000dpi.

Also the wording suggests you can't turn it off for normal use
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> The Fusion Engine does not require software. Out of the box the Fusion Engine is enabled and fully functional with no software installed and within any OS. The ability to disable the Fusion Engine is a feature that is only available within the speed test view in the LGS software. If the software is installed but the speed test view is not open, the Fusion Engine is on. If the software is not installed, the Fusion Engine is on.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> The Fusion engine enable/disable feature is for while the software is running only. Basically, if you disable the Fusion Engine you are testing the capabilities of the optical sensor only. If you were to disable it permanently, your max speed would be limited to somewhere between 80-120 IPS depending on surface
> 
> Permanently disabling the Fusion Engine doesn't really make sense from a usage standpoint. While the optical sensor is providing data, the Fusion Engine only monitors motion. If the optical sensor fails due to excessive speed, the Fusion Engine immediately takes over delivering tracking information until the optical sensor recovers. This handover happens in <1ms, so there is never a USB report that does not deliver tracking information.
> 
> Beyond confirming that Hyperion Fury has a two-year warranty, your warranty question is not something I can answer as it relates to future product strategy.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Same sensor with new settings.
> 
> CPI steps are 240-4000 in steps of 80 - so you can get native 400/800/1600/etc.
> 
> CPI range was extended, but there is still zero smoothing at 2000 CPI and below. 2080 CPI and above implement 4 frames (<1ms) of smoothing in order to mitigate ripple. Sensors with smoothing levels that people find problematic are typically around 4-7ms.


----------



## duhizy

People are so quick to shun potential, gunna need more reviews on the effects of the fusion engine handoff. If it truly has no effect on the feel of the sensor, then you're no longer paying for an inferior product. If you play under 2000 dpi you're going to get a sensor with little/no smoothing and basically no other cons in performance, decide if you like the shape,weight, and button placement and be done with it. I might wait for the possibility of a MLT04 version of this tho, that sounds exciting.


----------



## Koen3d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> The scroll wheel sits in the upper shell, the axle does not lay on the switch at all. The switch for it is a tact switch. I like the feeling of the MMB with it, but it is significantly harder than the main mouse buttons, doesn't feel like a normal button at all imo.


Thanks for your reply, although that's very dissapointing news for me. I want to believe that it's not that bad in reality but I'm yet to see a tact switch based button that clicks nicely. Design used in MX518 was perfect for me but the wheel itself had very uncomfortable shape and was sitting too deep in mouse body. When I saw that G402 doesn't have these issues and doesn't use gimmicky side clicking, hyper scrolling wheel I was almost ready to pre-order, but then I saw that tact switch...


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> People are so quick to shun potential, gunna need more reviews on the effects of the fusion engine handoff. If it truly has no effect on the feel of the sensor, then you're no longer paying for an inferior product. If you play under 2000 dpi you're going to get a sensor with little/no smoothing and basically no other cons in performance, decide if you like the shape,weight, and button placement and be done with it. I might wait for the possibility of a MLT04 version of this tho, that sounds exciting.


Carbon copy of IE3.0 with fusion engine

dowant


----------



## duhizy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Carbon copy of IE3.0 with fusion engine
> 
> dowant


I feel like the fusion engine would be doing more tracking then the sensor XD


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Carbon copy of IE3.0 with fusion engine
> 
> dowant


Yeah, thats gonna happen

Maybe with 92 side buttons and a ultima 1337 sniper button, and extra buttons on the main 1 and 2 buttons for super leet mega skill

they must have LEDs in them too! they gotta be red for blazin fast speed, and some green to give you more health


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> I feel like the fusion engine would be doing more tracking then the sensor XD


I don't see why not.
If the G402's sensor can be boosted to 12m/s, there's no trouble to boosting the MLT04 to maybe 5-6m/s

On topic: why is Omron switch used for main button only? Can you get confirmation from Logi that this is the final decision for the G402?


----------



## Necroblob

Part of me wonders why we need this kind of innovation when the G400 had an awesome sensor that could have been used across the Logitech lineup. The G402 shape with the G400 sensor would have been excellent. I'm a fan of the sensor in the G100s as well, and if the gyro thing works then that's an added bonus, but I can't help feeling that Logitech should have stuck with what worked.

At the same time, I think the gyro is quite an interesting addition. Presumably it is cheaper than putting a high end sensor into the mouse which means that we might see it implemented in some of the smaller ambidextrous mice (being realistic, Logitech and most other companies have always neglected these mice as their low end products). Any improvement to this segment of the market where the G100s has one of the best sensors going is welcome.


----------



## a_ak57

I feel like the goal of this was a proof of concept for using really cheap sensors with gryo technology to make them actually decent (to provide for a lower cost than simply using high quality sensors). Though that would make me wonder why they would have bothered with the 1366 since it's obviously the opposite of that idea. It's not something we'll ever know though, since Logitech would obviously never state something like that even if it were true. Who knows, maybe they just want to make 5000 METERS PER SECOND the new marketing thing to replace the DPI wars.


----------



## semantics

Ionno secure rights in a patent? Bored engineers told to be more avant guard? Either way i'm totally fine with it as it seems to show no difference from any other "perfect" mouse in regard to performance. Although the idea for it seems like it be better for an anywhere mouse than a gaming mouse. Darkfield+fusion engine = reliable in many conditions.


----------



## Ino.

So, I re-did the accel test, this time I also used MouseTester for the initial swipe.






http://imgur.com/cHpwaeN

If this isn't fine then I don't know.


----------



## Nivity

Question to you Ino:

I know you prefer smaller mice like FK1 etc.

I heavily prefer smaller mice like Kana, Savu, G100s and so on.

How would you say this mouse is for someone like me that prefer smaller mice with 18cm ish handsand use a claw/fingertip hybrid grip?

The g400 is abit hard for me to control, mainly due to the curves. Deathadder is much easier for example to handle.
G502 was unusable for me, to big, to heavy for comparisson. And this seems abit smaller and is lighter.

So do you think this is even worth trying for someone like me?


----------



## Dreyka

I have uploaded screenshots of the discussion I had with LogitechG_Chris on the subreddit /r/Mousereview. You can find the full thread here. Lots of useful information and worth a full read.

Big thanks to LogitechG_Chris for being so forthcoming with answers and being a Community Manager/Representative.







I now understand why Logitech decided to go for a different approach than use the PMW-3310 and I prefer their approach to the PMW-3310.

The most interesting aspect of this is the marketing aspect. Logitech decided rather than go for high DPI marketing (4000DPI is not high to your average consumer) that they would go for high IPS marketing. IPS usually gets relegated to the tech specs page but Logitech are now using at as a primary marketing tool instead of DPI. It's an interesting decision to make and I do wonder whether the "Fusion Engine" is going to be seen in more Logitech mice.


----------



## TK421

The 3310 has more smoothing than the AM010+gyro in the G402?

Also, Ino, can you ask Logi whether they have a firmware update planned for the G402 to eliminate the positive accel and make it behave like a G502 with no accel?


----------



## Atavax

i don't know anyone that was expecting it to be using the 3310 sensor. The hope and disappointment was over it not using the 3366 sensor.

also, if there is any acceleration with the g402, its marginal enough where its unlikely they could fully eliminate it. The 3366 is the only sensor no one detects any acceleration on. The g402 has small enough acceleration where for all practical purposes we would say there is no acceleration.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> The 3310 has more smoothing than the AM010+gyro in the G402?
> 
> Also, Ino, can you ask Logi whether they have a firmware update planned for the G402 to eliminate the positive accel and make it behave like a G502 with no accel?


Read the third image I uploaded. From what I understand the G402 has less acceleration than the G400. Nor did any testers notice acceleration.


----------



## Malvolg

Ino.: in your time with the mouse have you noticed any issues with the mouse feet?

Many people have experienced problems with the feet on the g502, including them peeling off. If the g402 has no such issues, it will become my primary mouse as soon as it's available.


----------



## semantics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> i don't know anyone that was expecting it to be using the 3310 sensor. The hope and disappointment was over it not using the 3366 sensor.
> 
> also, if there is any acceleration with the g402, its marginal enough where its unlikely they could fully eliminate it. The 3366 is the only sensor no one detects any acceleration on. The g402 has small enough acceleration where for all practical purposes we would say there is no acceleration.


Yup, Which is why the G502 set up is so desired in other mouse shells. Also pretty legit reason not to use the 3310, smoothing although not many report it, is detected with that sensor for a group of users. Having a very accurate 0 smoothing sensor for below 2080dpi seems like a legit reason. And the Accell/Gyro allows them to do cute things like detect lift and accelerations greater than the sensor can handle.

I was fully satisfied with their justifications posted in that reddit thread.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Malvolg*
> 
> Ino.: in your time with the mouse have you noticed any issues with the mouse feet?
> 
> Many people has problems with the feet on the g502 peeling off. If the g402 has no such issues, it will become my primary mouse as soon as it's available.


I haven't had peeling off issue with G502 but with so many small feet there is alot of edges for gunk to get into, which is why i prefer the 2 large pad setup as it feels more robust even if the initial glide is the same. I get trying to be artsy about it, but it's the bottom of the mouse, no one really looks there.


----------



## Derp

Thank you for posting that Dreyka. Lots of good questions and a more open Cpate.

So he's hinting that the 3310 has more smoothing than the chosen setup especially below 2080 CPI? Or is he just saying that he knows the chosen sensor is smoothing free under 2080. You kind of let him off the hook on the details of that question. I was also hoping for an answer to the question that Dreyka asked: "So is this solution better or worse than using the PMW-3310. Assuming that you never move the mouse faster 4m/s."

If the 3310 was actually tested and it does have more smoothing I wish he would have posted that here earlier to show a real reason and motivation for choosing the accelerometer combination over a sensor only solution which is what I was looking for instead of "it works" and "innovation yo".

I might have to try one to see if I can feel it engaging and disengaging when Amazon has some stock.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Thank you for posting that Dreyka. Lots of good questions and a more open Cpate.
> 
> So he's hinting that the 3310 has more smoothing than the chosen setup especially below 2080 CPI? Or is he just saying that he knows the chosen sensor is smoothing free under 2080. You kind of let him off the hook on the details of that question. I was also hoping for an answer to the question that Dreyka asked: "So is this solution better or worse than using the PMW-3310. Assuming that you never move the mouse faster 4m/s."
> 
> If the 3310 was actually tested and it does have more smoothing I wish he would have posted that here earlier to show a real reason and motivation for choosing the accelerometer combination over a sensor only solution which is what I was looking for instead of "it works" and "innovation yo". The only thing that worries me is the "(nearly always <100ms)" That seems like a lot considering that my personal tracking speed would be right on the edge of the sensor's limit causing the accelerometer and sensor to constantly play hot potato with tracking information.
> 
> I might have to try one to see if I can feel it engaging and disengaging when Amazon has some stock.


It's <1ms not 100ms







And when it's below 1ms you sure won't feel any difference, as USB can't poll faster.


----------



## Derp

looks like I misread that from this picture: http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/lightbox/post/22646587/id/2118576

That was the usual duration and not the delay.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Same sensor with new settings.
> 
> CPI steps are 240-4000 in steps of 80 - so you can get native 400/800/1600/etc.
> 
> CPI range was extended, but there is still zero smoothing at 2000 CPI and below. 2080 CPI and above implement 4 frames (<1ms) of smoothing in order to mitigate ripple. Sensors with smoothing levels that people find problematic are typically around 4-7ms.


----------



## Gilles3000

Just preorded it, hopefully i'll get it soon


----------



## pox02

Whare i can order this i have g502 didnt like it a lot buttons but g402 have great speed i dont care of the money if someone have link to order thats will be nice thanks


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> I feel like the fusion engine would be doing more tracking then the sensor XD


Exactly. It wouldn't be a MLT but a accelerometer tracking movement. Therefore, it would be a different mouse...


----------



## jsx3

Bit of miscomprehension revolving around "acceleration" or variable consistency of cursor path.

Ino is simply stating that the acceleration inherit to sensor is comparable to older packages such as 3090,3310,3988 etc. 3366 superseding.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jsx3*
> 
> Bit of miscomprehension revolving around "acceleration" or variable consistency of cursor path.
> 
> Ino is simply stating that the acceleration inherit to sensor is comparable to older packages such as 3090,3310,3988 etc. 3366 superceeding.


This was exactly what I meant.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> This was exactly what I meant.


We should rather stick to Variance instead of Acceleration just to make sure these misunderstandings arent happening anymore, i can see it going out of hand already.


----------



## CPate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Thank you for posting that Dreyka. Lots of good questions and a more open Cpate.
> 
> So he's hinting that the 3310 has more smoothing than the chosen setup especially below 2080 CPI? Or is he just saying that he knows the chosen sensor is smoothing free under 2080.


I'm not hinting at anything. The statement that we chose the sensor from the G100s as our base due to its good performance in almost every respect except for speed is really the reason. We reviewed the available options and went with the one we thought made the most sense based on all the information we have available to us. Zero smoothing at low CPI values is one of the criteria that made it very appealing.

I think it is important to remember that it is Logitech's policy not to discuss details (part numbers, manufacturers, etc) of the specific component parts we use. We also do not discuss competitors' products or, by extension, the components they use. This is why all of the information I share is in comparative terms to existing Logitech product.


----------



## CPate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> We should rather stick to Variance instead of Acceleration just to make sure these misunderstandings arent happening anymore, i can see it going out of hand already.


Yeah, I've tried to move conversations toward using "accuracy" or "speed-related accuracy variance" but the internet really only understands the term "acceleration". And what they understand is "accel = bad" and not what it actually is. So it's tough.

Same thing with optical vs laser. Trying to explain to people that "laser" sensors are optical just makes them mad and claim that I'm ducking the question.


----------



## popups

The G402's sensor and accelerometer might be fine for almost everyone in terms of performance under 2000 CPI. However, far as I can tell, the 3366 has so much more options and technical capabilities it is hard to argue the G402's sensor is equal to it. I think most people will have no issues using the G402's sensor, it does what many would want. If the price was $40-50 it would be hard to say anything about the G402. Overall the G402 gives you things that the G400S didn't, but it doesn't give you what the G502 does. It's up to you...


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> I'm not hinting at anything. The statement that we chose the sensor from the G100s as our base due to its good performance in almost every respect except for speed is really the reason. We reviewed the available options and went with the one we thought made the most sense based on all the information we have available to us. Zero smoothing at low CPI values is one of the criteria that made it very appealing.
> 
> I think it is important to remember that it is Logitech's policy not to discuss details (part numbers, manufacturers, etc) of the specific component parts we use. We also do not discuss competitors' products or, by extension, the components they use. This is why all of the information I share is in comparative terms to existing Logitech product.


I do understand your position of not being able to disclose information but also hope that you can understand my position of wanting more information of a now released product. I didn't think discussing the 3310 would be off limits since competitors configure it differently between each other and it's a product from Pixart, not a competitor that sells mice.

Either way, thanks for providing the info that you're allowed to release.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Same thing with optical vs laser. Trying to explain to people that "laser" sensors are optical just makes them mad and claim that I'm ducking the question.


Anyone who has known Skylit on here won't get mad at you for that tbh. He made it clear it's a marketing term and explained it more properly.
Though myself and other people still use the terms "Laser" and "Optical" to make it easier to explain I guess.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> CPI steps are 240-4000 in steps of 80 - so you can get native 400/800/1600/etc.
> 
> CPI range was extended, but there is still zero smoothing at 2000 CPI and below. 2080 CPI and above implement 4 frames (<1ms) of smoothing in order to mitigate ripple. Sensors with smoothing levels that people find problematic are typically around 4-7ms.


I remember seeing Skylit claim having variable smoothing per DPI step wasn't possible with current architecture. That's strange they claimed to have completely solved the smoothing problem so easily? And now we should expect no mice at all to have unreasonable smoothing in the future at lower DPI steps?

Also, can you please build some kind of option in the software to turn off the gyroscope feature completely? I really doubt having it turned on will be unnoticeable. Just about any kind of post processing on PC components is easily noticeable.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Ino, from those pictures your not a hybrid grip. You're pure palm. If you show a picture of your right side fingers and they're poking the mouse rather than lying flat like your others, then that would be a hybrid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA5wA4EB56g
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> *@HAGGARD*
> Let's be straight forward. The 3366 is the best sensor ever made. It's the best sensor available. Only Logitech has rights to it. If you want the best sensor in today's market you will buy a G502 because you have to. If you want something lighter and cheaper than the G502 you will buy the G402. You get what you pay for. Honestly, I think the G402 is over priced (not like other mice are not).


This is only the case if everyone preferred "6m/s and multiple levels of adjustable dpi" over sensor accuracy. G502 is not the most accurate sensor on the market. It's just arguably the best "all around" sensor. But many of the things it's good at are useless to many people.

The G502 also has other flaws like too much weight, poor button placement causing accidental clicks, and too narrow in the back causing hand cramps. All of which would prevent many people from using the mouse.


----------



## ChevChelios

^ I agree that 3366 hardly outweighs all of the G502s other potential issues and doesn't justify getting a G502 because "3366 is the best, all the rest be damned"

I would argue most or at least half of 3310 mice are > G502

I currently own a G502 and am looking to sell it and then get one of the following:

- Kone XTD Optical (am wary of that sensor, also on the heavy side)
- G400 (it's a bit too similar to MX518/G5, I'd argue those are outdated now and most other 3310 mice feel and grip better and have better side buttons (personal preference obviously) .. also don't like the wheel .. also no 3310 sensor, which is supposed to be better then the one in G400 as far as I know .. especially for a guy who plays a lot @ 2000 cpi)
- Corsair M45 (i don't really know much about this .. it's Corsair =/ .. the shape loosk weird to me, even moreso then G502)
- G402 (pretty much only the sniper button in the way of the thumb is the issue and also that I've no clue when it'll be available in local e-shops .. I might try to feel it out first before buying or just buy it anyway at some point







)
- Mionix Naos 7000 (most like will get this one (nice weight for me), I think they will implement the auto-profile switch which I like due to the requests and I can make due w/o it in the mean time)

sorry for the WOT


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ino, from those pictures your not a hybrid grip. You're pure palm. If you show a picture of your right side fingers and they're poking the mouse rather than lying flat like your others, then that would be a hybrid.


My grip with the G402 is more close to full palm indeed, but because it kind of forces my pinky to be straight it is also uncomfortable to me. If palming was my natural grip the mouse would fit excellently.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> I remember seeing Skylit claim having variable smoothing per DPI step wasn't possible with current architecture. That's strange they claimed to have completely solved the smoothing problem so easily? And now we should expect no mice at all to have unreasonable smoothing in the future at lower DPI steps?
> 
> Also, can you please build some kind of option in the software to turn off the gyroscope feature completely? I really doubt having it turned on will be unnoticeable. Just about any kind of post processing on PC components is easily noticeable.


R0ach there is no reason to ever turn it off (it can be turned off with software if you really want). Unless you prefer having the AM010 sensor to malfunction than switch over to the accelerometer/gyroscope. If you are below 2.7m/s then only the AM010 sensor is being used and if you above that speed it switches over to the accelerometer/gyroscope in less than 1ms. None of their testers noticed when it was switching over either.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Yeah, I've tried to move conversations toward using "accuracy" or "speed-related accuracy variance" but the internet really only understands the term "acceleration". And what they understand is "accel = bad" and not what it actually is. So it's tough.
> 
> Same thing with optical vs laser. Trying to explain to people that "laser" sensors are optical just makes them mad and claim that I'm ducking the question.


It would be easier to move away from the word acceleration to "speed-related accuracy variance" if you could give a short laymans write up to the difference between the two.

Part of the reason why people say 'laser' and 'optical' is the exact same reason you market upon higher IPS and DPI. When explaining to a person who doesn't know anything about mice you can't get into the gritty details of how 'optical' and 'laser' are just different methods of acceleration. You just talk about how 'laser' mice have acceleration because 'laser' mice are almost always using the A9500 or A9800 sensor and do have more acceleration than 'optical' sensors. If you want this to stop then the industry as a whole needs to put less importance on the word 'laser' and 'optical'. Product pages do not list the sensor used at all so the shorthand becomes to avoid gaming laser mice.


----------



## Derp

Well said Dreyka.

Skylit tried many times to correct people on this term but through all of his corrections it never had a single effect on the discussion. The same can be said when he kept repeating that all laser sensors didn't have accel or high variance but for the last few years they did so this statement while not true wasn't misleading at all for those looking to buy a new mouse.

It would be nice to have the whole variance labels replace the incorrect term. Then the type of illumination would be irrelevant, it's either a high, low or hopefully in the future, zero variance sensor.

I know you're reading these threads Skylit. Come back already.


----------



## metal571

So what it all boils down to is that the G402 has consistency comparable to earlier packages like the 3090 and 3310 but with potentially less smoothing at lower CPI steps? Trying to get an overall picture here after reading the last couple pages so I can figure out if I should recommend this mouse to people or not.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ino, from those pictures your not a hybrid grip. You're pure palm. If you show a picture of your right side fingers and they're poking the mouse rather than lying flat like your others, then that would be a hybrid.
> 
> 
> 
> My grip with the G402 is more close to full palm indeed, but because it kind of forces my pinky to be straight it is also uncomfortable to me. If palming was my natural grip the mouse would fit excellently.
Click to expand...

So the G402 is still to big to claw/fingertip control for mid size hands?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> So the G402 is still to big to claw/fingertip control for mid size hands?


It is for me, maybe not to big, but the right side is my issue. It's different from G400, kind of hard to describe.
Good thing about Logitech: their products are on display almost everywhere, so everyone can do a hands on before buying one.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ino, from those pictures your not a hybrid grip. You're pure palm. If you show a picture of your right side fingers and they're poking the mouse rather than lying flat like your others, then that would be a hybrid.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA5wA4EB56g
> This is only the case if everyone preferred "6m/s and multiple levels of adjustable dpi" over sensor accuracy. G502 is not the most accurate sensor on the market. It's just arguably the best "all around" sensor. But many of the things it's good at are useless to many people.
> 
> The G502 also has other flaws like too much weight, poor button placement causing accidental clicks, and too narrow in the back causing hand cramps. All of which would prevent many people from using the mouse.


Are you gonna get the G402?


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> So what it all boils down to is that the G402 has consistency comparable to earlier packages like the 3090 and 3310 but with potentially less smoothing at lower CPI steps? Trying to get an overall picture here after reading the last couple pages so I can figure out if I should recommend this mouse to people or not.


Yeah that's pretty much it. Theoretically it should be preferable to the 3310 for low DPI users but the sensor will struggle at higher DPI comparatively.


----------



## fellcbr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> So what it all boils down to is that the G402 has consistency comparable to earlier packages like the 3090 and 3310 but with potentially less smoothing at lower CPI steps? Trying to get an overall picture here after reading the last couple pages so I can figure out if I should recommend this mouse to people or not.


reading CPate replies on Reddit it is the impression i've got..


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Well said Dreyka.
> 
> Skylit tried many times to correct people on this term but through all of his corrections it never had a single effect on the discussion. The same can be said when he kept repeating that all laser sensors didn't have accel or high variance but for the last few years they did so this statement while not true wasn't misleading at all for those looking to buy a new mouse.
> 
> It would be nice to have the whole variance labels replace the incorrect term. Then the type of illumination would be irrelevant, it's either a high, low or hopefully in the future, zero variance sensor.
> 
> I know you're reading these threads Skylit. Come back already.


If we can talk purely in terms of speed-related accuracy variance of sensors then this wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that no-one other than Logitech has the technology to actually get this data. Logitech should share this data for each sensor as all of these problems and myths relating to sensors is a direct result of a lack of objective information.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> So what it all boils down to is that the G402 has consistency comparable to earlier packages like the 3090 and 3310 but with potentially less smoothing at lower CPI steps? Trying to get an overall picture here after reading the last couple pages so I can figure out if I should recommend this mouse to people or not.


Here is your answer from the reddit thread I took a screenshot of.

Quote: Dreyka


> Is there more or less acceleration when moving at speed compared to the PMW-3310? I know that no sensor tracks perfectly.
> 
> Also, have you done any experiments to determine the level of acceleration needed before the user notices there is acceleration. That kind of information would be really useful in context to the A9800 sensor.


Quote:LogitechG_Chris


> It's a very tricky question to answer but I'll try to do so within the bounds of what I'm permitted to divulge.
> 
> The test data I've seen suggests accuracy/acceleration is similar for those sensors. That doesn't mean they will behave identically across all surfaces and all speeds, though.
> 
> Using G400 as a baseline, a noticeable speed-related accuracy variance (acceleration) value would be somewhere between twice and four times as large (or inaccurate) depending on the user. The Hyperion Fury at 585 IPS (max speed it could achieve on our test machine) came in at half of the baseline.


As only the accelerometer is being used at maximum IPS we know that the speed-related accuracy variance of the accelerometer is half of the A3095 (Logitech G400). I'd love to know what surface was being used to test this on.

Also from that thread we know that if the A3095 was the base then the speed-related accuracy variance of the A9800 is "just under 4x more" than the A3095 (Logitech G400).

I strongly recommend that everyone reads through this thread. Lots of useful information there.


----------



## semantics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Also, can you please build some kind of option in the software to turn off the gyroscope feature completely? I really doubt having it turned on will be unnoticeable. Just about any kind of post processing on PC components is easily noticeable.


It's self contained on the mouse, the gyro/accell works with or without LGS is my impression. So it's not post processing in the traditional since as i don't think it's send any extraneous data back and forth over the usb cable. Also to note that the G402 is using 2 sensors the optical and the gyro/accell they are both providing data to determine the movement of the mouse, turning one off is like poking out an eye. Now this could be considered valid if it turns out the gyro/accell is bringing down the accuracy of the mouse as the data it's providing isn't as useful and is mucking up the data, but if that was the case i don't think this mouse would have ever made it to retail.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> It's self contained on the mouse, the gyro/accell works with or without LGS is my impression. So it's not post processing in the traditional since as i don't think it's send any extraneous data back and forth over the usb cable. Also to note that the G402 is using 2 sensors the optical and the gyro/accell they are both providing data to determine the movement of the mouse, turning one off is like poking out an eye. Now this could be considered valid if it turns out the gyro/accell is bringing down the accuracy of the mouse as the data it's providing isn't as useful and is mucking up the data, but if that was the case i don't think this mouse would have ever made it to retail.


Your analogy is wrong. G402 is only using the optical sensor at under 2.7m/s and switches to the accelerometer above that. The reason they didn't go purely for an accelerometer is that they are less accurate at low speeds. The gyrometer is used for working out when the mouse is lifted and dropped.


----------



## monoxy

It all seems very good in my book. Any info on the UK release?


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Your analogy is wrong. G402 is only using the optical sensor at under 2.7m/s and switches to the accelerometer above that. The reason they didn't go purely for an accelerometer is that they are less accurate at low speeds. The gyrometer is used for working out when the mouse is lifted and dropped.


i don't think any of us knows for certain exactly how it works. The impression i got was that the accelerometer is never in control for more then a millisecond at a time. That it isn't after 2.6m/s 100% accelerometer and gyroscope. That it is still primarily the sensor doing all the work even at high speeds. That when you exceed a sensor's max speed, what often happens is that either the cursor stops right in its track or it flies vertically and in those scenarios the accelerometer and gyroscope basically tells the mouse to keep going straight instead of stopping or flying vertically.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> So what it all boils down to is that the G402 has consistency comparable to earlier packages like the 3090 and 3310 but with potentially less smoothing at lower CPI steps? Trying to get an overall picture here after reading the last couple pages so I can figure out if I should recommend this mouse to people or not.


From what I remember, there are options with the newer sensors that allows different behavior. So it is up to the company to decide their outcome. The 3310 and AM010 should be comparable, whereas the 3366 is likely on a different level.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I know you're reading these threads Skylit. Come back already.


Never...

*@Dreyka*
The comparisons of accuracy between each sensor seems rather misleading.

*@MaximilianKohler*
Quote:


> G502 is not the most accurate sensor on the market


I find that statement hard to believe. I cannot see the technical capabilities of a 3366 resulting in less accuracy than a MLT-04. It could be a few bugs with the coding of the G502 considering all the unnecessary features (they did have a firmware update recently). When it comes to the sensor itself, it should be extremely consistent.


----------



## metal571

As long as it's generally accepted that the 9800 and 9500 are significantly worse in terms of tracking variation and that the "enhanced" AM010 in the 402 is on par with the old 3090 then this mouse should be considered excellent although just a hair worse than the 3366.

Does anyone know if the 9800 variance is significantly reduced on hard mats and has any data to show this? I have read multiple times that the 9500/9800 package is really designed to work best on highly uniform surfaces where it has much less speed related variance and not cloth.


----------



## Erecshyrinol

So, bottom line, this mouse works better than the 3090 in the g400 did?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> As long as it's generally accepted that the 9800 and 9500 are significantly worse in terms of tracking variation and that the "enhanced" AM010 in the 402 is on par with the old 3090 then this mouse should be considered excellent although just a hair worse than the 3366.
> 
> Does anyone know if the 9800 variance is significantly reduced on hard mats and has any data to show this? I have read multiple times that the 9500/9800 package is really designed to work best on highly uniform surfaces where it has much less speed related variance and not cloth.


It is quite unfair to compare those sensors in a very technical way. I mean to say: it's fine to use them in a generalized manner, but not in a direct comparison.

There are various reasons why sensors act a certain way. Some of their negative behavior is based off coding alone. There are different light sources, internal/external oscillators, pixel arrays, DSP capabilities, etc.

Comparing a 3310 with a AM010 is a little more reasonable.

The 3366 doesn't really have another sensor to compare it to.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It is quite unfair to compare those sensors in a very technical way. I mean to say: it's fine to use them in a generalized manner, but not in a direct comparison.
> 
> There are various reasons why sensors act a certain way. Some of their negative behavior is based off coding alone. There are different light sources, internal/external oscillators, pixel arrays, DSP capabilities, etc.
> 
> Comparing a 3310 with a AM010 is more reasonable.
> 
> The 3366 doesn't really have another sensor to compare it to.


Hah yes I realize the 9800 package was designed with different goals in mind so I can see how you would say that. I was simply curious. It just bugs me having no other hard data than that Xai graph to support my subjective conclusion of how the modern VCSEL models track with more variance than any optical I've used. But it is certainly a noticeable difference for me at least, however less so on hard mats.


----------



## CPate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> As only the accelerometer is being used at maximum IPS we know that the speed-related accuracy variance of the accelerometer is half of the A3095 (Logitech G400). I'd love to know what surface was being used to test this on.


This was a black cloth surface similar to G240.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> So what it all boils down to is that the G402 has consistency comparable to earlier packages like the 3090 and 3310 but with potentially less smoothing at lower CPI steps? Trying to get an overall picture here after reading the last couple pages so I can figure out if I should recommend this mouse to people or not.


Yes. No sensor is 100% identical to another sensor under every condition, but overall the experience should be very close.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> i don't think any of us knows for certain exactly how it works. The impression i got was that the accelerometer is never in control for more then a millisecond at a time. That it isn't after 2.6m/s 100% accelerometer and gyroscope. That it is still primarily the sensor doing all the work even at high speeds. That when you exceed a sensor's max speed, what often happens is that either the cursor stops right in its track or it flies vertically and in those scenarios the accelerometer and gyroscope basically tells the mouse to keep going straight instead of stopping or flying vertically.


No, if the optical sensor is not providing good tracking data, the mouse only sends the PC tracking data from the Fusion Engine. This only happens for the period of time when the optical sensor stops tracking due to excessive speed - which is whatever period of time in the full swipe that the mouse is going faster than ~2.5-3 m/sec (since max speed for optical sensors depends on surface readability characteristics). This time period is typically <100ms based on our testing. The <1ms I was referring to is the transition time between the two data sets.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monoxy*
> 
> It all seems very good in my book. Any info on the UK release?


It is not possible to give a definitive answer, but it is likely to be mid to late September at the earliest based on previous product launches.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> i don't think any of us knows for certain exactly how it works. The impression i got was that the accelerometer is never in control for more then a millisecond at a time. That it isn't after 2.6m/s 100% accelerometer and gyroscope. That it is still primarily the sensor doing all the work even at high speeds. That when you exceed a sensor's max speed, what often happens is that either the cursor stops right in its track or it flies vertically and in those scenarios the accelerometer and gyroscope basically tells the mouse to keep going straight instead of stopping or flying vertically.


The information I have provided was explained by a Logitech representative in my post here. Please read the screenshots.

The transition from AM010 sensor to accelerometer takes less than 1ms. Both are NEVER working at the same time. Below 2.7m/s ONLY the AM010 sensor is being used. Above the 2.7m/s ONLY the accelerometer is being used. The movement data from optical sensor and accelerometer is not being combined in any way. Belowe 2.7m/s movement data is coming from the AM010 sensor and above 2.7m/s movement data is coming from the accelerometer.


----------



## hza

Can you implement accelerometer/gyrometer thing into vcsel mice? And... I never had G9(x) myself just because I disliked the changeable grips or w/e. If it was made as a whole similar to the Alienware TactX variation, I would have bought one guaranteed. I'm a big fan of G500 for years (when I replaced the Xai with it). However, would be nice to see some new _improved_ vcsel mice around.


----------



## CPate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> As long as it's generally accepted that the 9800 and 9500 are significantly worse in terms of tracking variation and that the "enhanced" AM010 in the 402 is on par with the old 3090 then this mouse should be considered excellent although just a hair worse than the 3366.


Just so it's clear, the sensor performance is the same as the G100s, with the exception of the higher max speed and whatever "feel" improvements result from running at 1ms vs 2ms. It has not been enhanced beyond improving max CPI and adding granularity to CPI steps. Overall it has comparable tracking performance to G400 but depending on your individual preference for tracking feel it may or may not be "better". With respect to accuracy variance specifically, though, in comparison to the G500 it is significantly better. Just as G400 and G100s were better.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> The information I have provided was explained by a Logitech representative in my post here. Please read the screenshots.


Hi - I'm that Logitech rep.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Can you implement accelerometer/gyrometer thing into vcsel mice? And... I never had G9(x) myself just because I disliked the changeable grips or w/e. If it was made as a whole similar to the Alienware TactX variation, I would have bought one guaranteed. I'm a big fan of G500 for years (when I replaced the Xai with it). However, would be nice to see some new _improved_ vcsel mice around.


Given that the max speed of those mice is >200 IPS already, it wouldn't really deliver a significant benefit to pair them with the Fusion Engine. But it would be technically possible to do so.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> With respect to accuracy variance specifically, though, in comparison to the G500 it is significantly better.


This is what I should have asked since you guys have used the 9500 and 9800 yourselves in Logitech models. Do you have any numbers on how much more variance there is on the G500 and G500s vs. the G402? Most of the community generally accepts that with those VCSEL packages you end up +-5% variance (which I assume is dependent on surface) whereas optical is more in the range of +-0.5% in terms of actual counts at a given tracking speed vs. how many counts should actually be provided in an ideal situation. I would also be interested if there is a difference in variance between something like the G240 pad vs. the G440 pad for the G500/G500s.


----------



## CPate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> This is what I should have asked since you guys have used the 9500 and 9800 yourselves in Logitech models. Do you have any numbers on how much more variance there is on the G500 and G500s vs. the G402? Most of the community generally accepts that with those VCSEL packages you end up +-5% variance (which I assume is dependent on surface) whereas optical is more in the range of +-0.5% in terms of actual counts at a given tracking speed vs. how many counts should actually be provided in an ideal situation. I would also be interested if there is a difference in variance between something like the G240 pad vs. the G440 pad for the G500/G500s.


The tracking quality improvement for Hyperion Fury over G500/G500s with respect to variance is similar to that of the G400/G400s.

Different surfaces affect max speed moreso than they do accuracy. G100s has a somewhat higher max speed capability on a G440 than on a G240, for example. This is more about reflectivity characteristics and surface detail visibility than specific material hardness, though.


----------



## HAGGARD

Still hoping for detailed information on how the accelerometer/gyroscope component is implemented exactly. How does the system decide that the primary sensor "fails" to accurately track? What data does the accelerometer rely on for its calculations and what calculations does it do?

Ino, it would be cool if you could upload some logs from the MouseTester.exe from >3m/s swipes, i. e. where the accelerometer kicks in.


----------



## Dreyka

Worth watching the video. Notice the car analogy is becoming increasingly common in gaming mice. A lot of the angles used to photograph mice are also used to photograph cars. Razer is also heavily doing this. DPI has become analogous to how fast a car can go and Steelseries even use a speedometer design in their software (Steelseries Engine 3) for DPI. Seeing how gaming mice are marketed is almost surreal.

Logitech has put a great deal of focus upon marketing IPS instead of DPI. It will be interesting to see if they continue with this approach in order to make themselves stand out amongst the rest.

You can also see their testing equipment at 1:15. What surface is being used to test the mice on? Is it a surface used in a Logitech mouse pad?

CPate is also not allowed to answer whether the PMW-3310 allows for variable smoothing. If you're wondering why some of his responses are worded in weird ways (using G400 as a base for speed-related accuracy variance) then it is because of what he can and can't say.



Quote: LogitechG_Chris


> It is our policy not to discuss competitors' products, their development capabilities, or details of specific individual components.


----------



## popups

*@CPate*
Let's say there is a mouse pad coated with granular glass particles (Artisan Shiden-Kai). Sensors that use a LED as the light source have accuracy issues at moderate speeds (1.5-2.5m/s) on this type of surface. Being that the AM010 is using a LED it would most likely have the same issues tracking on this surface. So what happens when the G402's sensor starts to lose tracking quality at 1.5m/s? Does the accelerometer start to take over at 1.5m/s on this more difficult surface or is the accelerometer only setup to work at the maximum accuracy threshold?

*@HAGGARD*
Your questions have been answered already. CPate is basically repeating himself at this point.


----------



## HAGGARD

Care to point me towards those replies? Scanning through his posts, there is nothing that specifically explains that. Sorry if I am missing something.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Care to point me towards those replies? Scanning through his posts, there is nothing that specifically explains that. Sorry if I am missing something.


You are not missing anything, I think. You want something that at least gives a hint about how the algorithm that decides that the sensor is failing is working, right? I didn't see that posted anywhere.


----------



## CPate

There are limits to what I can share.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> Are you gonna get the G402?


I'm considering trying it, but
1. The shape looks even more narrow than the g502 which was already too narrow.
2. The 3366 sensor is reported to have the same "0 smoothing" yet it has the same inaccuracy feeling like most other new mice do (maybe just slightly less). So if it's not better than the 3366 then it seems like a waste.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> *@MaximilianKohler*
> I find that statement hard to believe. I cannot see the technical capabilities of a 3366 resulting in less accuracy than a MLT-04. It could be a few bugs with the coding of the G502 considering all the unnecessary features (they did have a firmware update recently). When it comes to the sensor itself, it should be extremely consistent.


Do you have a 9000fps MLT04 mouse? Have you compared the two mice, and if so, in which game(s)?

In CS 1.6 there is quite an obvious difference between them. As there is with the vast majority of gaming mice vs the MLT04 mice.

I'm not a mouse/sensor engineer so I have no idea what's causing it, but it's certainly there. It feels like the cursor/crosshair just moves in the general direction of where you want it rather than the precise pixel. Like it's glossing over pixels like it's on ice or something. The description "smoothing" seems appropriate even though the 3366 is said to have 0 smoothing.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> In CS 1.6 there is quite an obvious difference between them. As there is with the vast majority of gaming mice vs the MLT04 mice.
> 
> I'm not a mouse/sensor engineer so I have no idea what's causing it, but it's certainly there. It feels like the cursor/crosshair just moves in the general direction of where you want it rather than the precise pixel. Like it's glossing over pixels like it's on ice or something. The description "smoothing" seems appropriate even though the 3366 is said to have 0 smoothing.


I think you will never like anything else other than the MLT04.
The 3366 is better, you just prefer the feeling of the MLT04. And that will never come back. But I think you don't want to accept that it is just the feeling of the MLT04 that you like and not some "advantage" it has. It might be an advantage for you, but not in general.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I think you will never like anything else other than the MLT04.
> The 3366 is better, you just prefer the feeling of the MLT04. And that will never come back. But I think you don't want to accept that it is just the feeling of the MLT04 that you like and not some "advantage" it has. It might be an advantage for you, but not in general.


youtube.com/user/Ramla777
Ramla777 posted a comment
1 year ago(today is dec 26 2012)
Currently I use the abyssus. I only use the wmo when I play 1.6. It just feels so much more accurate in that game. I use the abyssus for every other game. CS:S Quake COD SC2

It's not only me Ino. It's common knowledge in the competitive FPS gaming community (CS and quake). It is absolutely an advantage. Many users on these forums have agreed both in comments and PMs to me. You will see it talked about in places like esreality.com as well.

It's pretty obvious that mice/sensor manufacturers are doing something to their mice that results in inferior tracking compared to the 400dpi 9000fps MLT04 mice.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> youtube.com/user/Ramla777
> Ramla777 posted a comment
> 1 year ago(today is dec 26 2012)
> Currently I use the abyssus. I only use the wmo when I play 1.6. It just feels so much more accurate in that game. I use the abyssus for every other game. CS:S Quake COD SC2
> 
> It's not only me Ino. It's common knowledge in the competitive FPS gaming community (CS and quake). It is absolutely an advantage. Many users on these forums have agreed both in comments and PMs to me. You will see it talked about in places like esreality.com as well.
> 
> It's pretty obvious that mice/sensor manufacturers are doing something to their mice that results in inferior tracking compared to the 400dpi 9000fps MLT04 mice.


I'm not going to re-iterate this again, I don't mind you (and lots of others) liking that feeling. It's just not "better" in terms of accuracy.
Feeling of the cursor has a huge impact on how much someone likes a mouse. Especially in games with very little processing altering the cursor feel.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> *@CPate*
> Let's say there is a mouse pad coated with granular glass particles (Artisan Shiden-Kai). Sensors that use a LED as the light source have accuracy issues at moderate speeds (1.5-2.5m/s) on this type of surface. Being that the AM010 is using a LED it would most likely have the same issues tracking on this surface. So what happens when the G402's sensor starts to lose tracking quality at 1.5m/s? Does the accelerometer start to take over at 1.5m/s on this more difficult surface or is the accelerometer only setup to work at the maximum accuracy threshold?


I'd like to know this, too.
I am also a Shiden-Kai owner that is waiting for a mouse capable of dealing with this particular surface.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'm not going to re-iterate this again, I don't mind you (and lots of others) liking that feeling. It's just not "better" in terms of accuracy.
> Feeling of the cursor has a huge impact on how much someone likes a mouse. Especially in games with very little processing altering the cursor feel.


Feeling of the cursor? If two different mice have different "feeling of the cursor" then there is clearly a tangible difference that's causing that. You could absolutely say one is objectively worse. Especially if you could find out what's causing that difference.

*If* it is due to some delay like input lag (just an example) then it will *feel* inaccurate in FPS games where you move and click very fast, because if the mouse hasn't updated fast enough that you clicked in the right spot then it will cause you to "miss". Thereby feeling inaccurate in comparison to another mouse that updates faster. So ultimately I'm not arguing that there is a specific measurement that shows "accuracy" for which the MLT04 is better at, but that *something* in most other mice is causing them to *feel* more inaccurate in FPS games (especially well coded ones).

Also, you haven't tested an MLT04 mouse yet right? Last I heard from you you didn't want to spend the money on something you didn't think you'd use. So you're being very assertive over something you haven't even tested yourself...


----------



## popups

*@dontspamme*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> There are limits to what I can share.


Only way you can find out that important information is to test the mouse yourself. I have no intention of buying a Logitech mouse. Maybe I can borrow one...

*@MaximilianKohler*
I haven't used an WMO/Intellimouse since my early competitive CS days (used WMO/Intellimouse from about 1999-2003). After that I used the Diamondback for my last years of competitive gaming (CAL/ESEA or whatever it was back then). Then went on to use DeathAdder and Zowie mice for general/casual gaming.


----------



## doors1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> youtube.com/user/Ramla777
> Ramla777 posted a comment
> 1 year ago(today is dec 26 2012)
> Currently I use the abyssus. I only use the wmo when I play 1.6. It just feels so much more accurate in that game. I use the abyssus for every other game. CS:S Quake COD SC2
> 
> It's not only me Ino. It's common knowledge in the competitive FPS gaming community (CS and quake). It is absolutely an advantage. Many users on these forums have agreed both in comments and PMs to me. You will see it talked about in places like esreality.com as well.
> 
> It's pretty obvious that mice/sensor manufacturers are doing something to their mice that results in inferior tracking compared to the 400dpi 9000fps MLT04 mice.


Agree.

I have this :

CM Spawn
Steelseries Rival
Deathadder 2013
Logitech G400s
wmo 3.0
mionix naos 7000
Zowie FK

And the 3.0 are the most accurate mouse i have tried.


----------



## cloudpierre

just want to post a friendly thank you to the logitech rep for contributing to the topic. i've sadly had some quality issues with a decent amount of logitech products i've purchased but i've always been very impressed with logitech's customer support and communication with their customers and community.


----------



## Nilizum

It's August already... T_T When's it coming!?


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> It's August already... T_T When's it coming!?


You might want to prepare to be severly disappointed. When someone located in Britain asked, CPate already answered to expect the mouse to ship in September or something.









It was in this post: http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-review-by-ino/140#post_22651727


----------



## iLLucionist

I am wondering.. is the 'cheap' or old sensor in the G402 really as accurate as, let say, the 3310 for lower speed movements and lower CPI? Alongside occasional FPS, I do design work / pixel art stuff. with the 3310, I have zero smoothing for lower movements. When I gently push the mouse, the cursor moves around instantaneously compared to my G402 (which I have to push harder or longer before the cursor starts moving at the same CPI). It makes the world of a difference: with the 3310-sensor I am always spot on to the pixel or line (illustrator, photoshop). But with my G402, I occasionally just miss the line or pixel and have to move back and forth to "get there". As such, the G402 is ok for longer distance movements and higher CPI in FPS for example. But for precision work, to me, it is useless. How would the Fusion Engine compare to the 3310 in this sense (accuracy with slow mouse movement / lower CPI)?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iLLucionist*
> 
> I am wondering.. is the 'cheap' or old sensor in the G402 really as accurate as, let say, the 3310 for lower speed movements and lower CPI? Alongside occasional FPS, I do design work / pixel art stuff. with the 3310, I have zero smoothing for lower movements. When I gently push the mouse, the cursor moves around instantaneously compared to my G402 (which I have to push harder or longer before the cursor starts moving at the same CPI). It makes the world of a difference: with the 3310-sensor I am always spot on to the pixel or line (illustrator, photoshop). But with my G402, I occasionally just miss the line or pixel and have to move back and forth to "get there". As such, the G402 is ok for longer distance movements and higher CPI in FPS for example. But for precision work, to me, it is useless. How would the Fusion Engine compare to the 3310 in this sense (accuracy with slow mouse movement / lower CPI)?


Wait, you have this mouse already? You are one of reviewer or something?


----------



## deepor

Where did you get it? Is it already shipping somewhere?


----------



## iLLucionist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Wait, you have this mouse already? You are one of reviewer or something?


No no, sorry! I have the G400s (the old one) with the 3095 sensor AND the Mionix Avior 7000 with the 3310 sensor. And I detest the G400s for the smoothing, but love the Avior 7000 because it feels so much more responsive, direct, and accurate across the whole CPI-range (for me, 800-2400).

So I do NOT have the G402. But I am very skeptical as to whether it will provide me with a package that is both VERY ACCURATE for low speed mouse movements (e.g., pixel art / designing) AS WELL as HIGH speed mouse movements in FPS.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iLLucionist*
> 
> No no, sorry! I have the G400s (the old one) with the 3095 sensor AND the Mionix Avior 7000 with the 3310 sensor. And I detest the G400s for the smoothing, but love the Avior 7000 because it feels so much more responsive, direct, and accurate across the whole CPI-range (for me, 800-2400).
> 
> So I do NOT have the G402. But I am very skeptical as to whether it will provide me with a package that is both VERY ACCURATE for low speed mouse movements (e.g., pixel art / designing) AS WELL as HIGH speed mouse movements in FPS.


Ok, mistake happens.

If you want compare I think G100s/G300 will be more appropriate, as they uses same sensor.

@r0ach said it's one of snappest mouses.


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iLLucionist*
> 
> No no, sorry! I have the G400s (the old one) with the 3095 sensor AND the Mionix Avior 7000 with the 3310 sensor. And I detest the G400s for the smoothing, but love the Avior 7000 because it feels so much more responsive, direct, and accurate across the whole CPI-range (for me, 800-2400).
> 
> So I do NOT have the G402. But I am very skeptical as to whether it will provide me with a package that is both VERY ACCURATE for low speed mouse movements (e.g., pixel art / designing) AS WELL as HIGH speed mouse movements in FPS.


Do you have the G400 (3600 max DPI) or G400S (4000 max DPI)?


----------



## iLLucionist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> Do you have the G400 (3600 max DPI) or G400S (4000 max DPI)?


I have the G400S (the S) with the 4000 dpi sensor.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> You might want to prepare to be severly disappointed. When someone located in Britain asked, CPate already answered to expect the mouse to ship in September or something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was in this post: http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-review-by-ino/140#post_22651727


Yea I read that too, which was why I was confused. I keep hearing NA and Europe releases are August, and the rest of the world is September. UK being a part of Europe is the stem of my confusion.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iLLucionist*
> 
> No no, sorry! I have the G400s (the old one) with the 3095 sensor AND the Mionix Avior 7000 with the 3310 sensor. And I detest the G400s for the smoothing, but love the Avior 7000 because it feels so much more responsive, direct, and accurate across the whole CPI-range (for me, 800-2400).
> 
> So I do NOT have the G402. But I am very skeptical as to whether it will provide me with a package that is both VERY ACCURATE for low speed mouse movements (e.g., pixel art / designing) AS WELL as HIGH speed mouse movements in FPS.


G402 feels very responsive, it has no smoothing. Nothing like G400s.


----------



## monoxy

Damn, still got too much time till September..Maybe some magic happens in logistic department and we can see them mid/end of August.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iLLucionist*
> 
> I have the G400S (the S) with the 4000 dpi sensor.


It's pretty common knowledge now that the 4000 DPI A3090 sensor has way more smoothing and lag than the 3600 DPI A3090. I have a 40 page long thread on the topic:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's pretty obvious that mice/sensor manufacturers are doing something to their mice that results in inferior tracking compared to the 400dpi 9000fps MLT04 mice.


They keep applying too much movement correction, anti-jitter processing, and other annoyances. It's nauseating reading mice ads where they talk about having a bunch of ARM processors in them. It's like....awesome, the cursor will feel completely disconnected from the hand like it originates from another dimension because they think overprocessing the input is a good thing.

What was the first big mouse to do this? The Sensei, which tracked slightly worse than the Xai without the ARM processer and same sensor. I'm sure technically the cursor might have qualified as having smoother movement, but it also felt more disconnected from reality.

If the mouse cursor doesn't have a very slight for lack of a better word, jitter to it, then it's also not going to have any responsiveness because they overprocessed the hell out of the input.


----------



## iLLucionist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> It's pretty common knowledge now that the 4000 DPI A3090 sensor has way more smoothing and lag than the 3600 DPI A3090. I have a 40 page long thread on the topic:
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2
> They keep applying too much movement correction, anti-jitter processing, and other annoyances. It's nauseating reading mice ads where they talk about having a bunch of ARM processors in them. It's like....awesome, the cursor will feel completely disconnected from the hand like it originates from another dimension because they think overprocessing the input is a good thing.
> 
> What was the first big mouse to do this? The Sensei, which tracked slightly worse than the Xai without the ARM processer and same sensor. I'm sure technically the cursor might have qualified as having smoother movement, but it also felt more disconnected from reality.
> 
> If the mouse cursor doesn't have a very slight for lack of a better word, jitter to it, then it's also not going to have any responsiveness because they overprocessed the hell out of the input.


Thanks about the info on the A3090, didn't knew that. Explains a lot. Basically, the G400s is now my back-up mouse.

Regards the movement correction, I don't understand how manufacturers think that (pro) gamers will not notice this and keep buying their crap. They market for gamers but they deliver subpar products. Or am I missing out on something? Also, I wonder whether they save that much by implementing algorithms and software instead of a proper sensor. I would be interested to see a breakdown of the costs: algorithm implementation vs sensor implementation.


----------



## maxvons

How are the mouse feet holding up?


----------



## Xanatos

I bet the switches will eventually fail.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xanatos*
> 
> I bet the switches will eventually fail.


Is there something about the G402 that makes you think that it's micro switches will fail sooner than other designs? I don't understand.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xanatos*
> 
> I bet the switches will eventually fail.


And you will eventually die too.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> How are the mouse feet holding up?


Very good. No problems at all. But then I didn't have any troubles on my G502 either.


----------



## oxidized

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> And you will eventually die too.


r00d


----------



## hza

Don't feed the troll.


----------



## jmcfab

I have been running the MX510 for close to 11 years. I have tried other brands in between but always went back to the trusty old MX510.

It has had zero issues.
It has countless hours of competitive CS 1.6 and GO on it.
The paint isn't even worn off.
It still has the original feet attached.

In general all of my Logitech hardware has been rock solid and reliable. I was about to buy a competitors unit until I heard about the release of this unit. Now I feel I am better off waiting for them to ship.

I think this is the mouse I've been waiting for.


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> youtube.com/user/Ramla777
> Ramla777 posted a comment
> 1 year ago(today is dec 26 2012)
> Currently I use the abyssus. I only use the wmo when I play 1.6. It just feels so much more accurate in that game. I use the abyssus for every other game. CS:S Quake COD SC2
> 
> It's not only me Ino. It's common knowledge in the competitive FPS gaming community (CS and quake). It is absolutely an advantage. Many users on these forums have agreed both in comments and PMs to me. You will see it talked about in places like esreality.com as well.
> 
> It's pretty obvious that mice/sensor manufacturers are doing something to their mice that results in inferior tracking compared to the 400dpi 9000fps MLT04 mice.


I'm sorry to bring this up again but I'm curious as to why he says the WMO only feels much more accurate in CS 1.6? You claim that 1.6 has a well-coded mouse input or something along those lines. As far as I know quake is pretty good in that regard and I haven't heard many complaints about source engine games such as TF2 either. I'm pretty sure you mentioned that the G502 felt fine on the desktop but you could easily feel the inaccuracy in-game. Is that common? Can you feel the inaccuracy of newer mice in more modern games so to speak? Could it be that older games is coded in a specific way that makes older mice feel more accurate? The reason I ask is because I find it interesting that he uses a WMO in 1.6 and abyssus in CS:S.


----------



## Speedster159

Does is still have the same lack? of acceleration as the G400/G400s?


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Speedster159*
> 
> Does is still have the same lack? of acceleration as the G400/G400s?


Yep, that video that Ino recorded shows that the (lack of) acceleration is pretty great. Other mice are all not better than this except for the G502.

The experiment in the video should have triggered that second "fusion engine" with the speed that was used, so this did also check for what happens if there's a transition between the normal sensor and that second one, and it's fine with regards to acceleration.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Very good. No problems at all. But then I didn't have any troubles on my G502 either.


Thanks, do you prefer the shape to the G502?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> Thanks, do you prefer the shape to the G502?


Hard to say if it's the shape, but I prefer the G402 in general. Simply because of the much lower weight and the better wheel for me. I would say the shape is better in itself because of the smaller thumbrest.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jmcfab*
> 
> I have been running the MX510 for close to 11 years. I have tried other brands in between but always went back to the trusty old MX510.
> 
> It has had zero issues.
> It has countless hours of competitive CS 1.6 and GO on it.
> The paint isn't even worn off.
> It still has the original feet attached.
> 
> In general all of my Logitech hardware has been rock solid and reliable. I was about to buy a competitors unit until I heard about the release of this unit. Now I feel I am better off waiting for them to ship.
> 
> I think this is the mouse I've been waiting for.


I doubt it. Why do you think the g402 would be an upgrade from your mx510?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> I'm sorry to bring this up again but I'm curious as to why he says the WMO only feels much more accurate in CS 1.6? You claim that 1.6 has a well-coded mouse input or something along those lines. As far as I know quake is pretty good in that regard and I haven't heard many complaints about source engine games such as TF2 either. I'm pretty sure you mentioned that the G502 felt fine on the desktop but you could easily feel the inaccuracy in-game. Is that common? Can you feel the inaccuracy of newer mice in more modern games so to speak? Could it be that older games is coded in a specific way that makes older mice feel more accurate? The reason I ask is because I find it interesting that he uses a WMO in 1.6 and abyssus in CS:S.


I agree. It is interesting.

I've played CS 1.6, CSS, and CSGO with this mouse. I even compared the 3.0 and g502 in both 1.6 and CSGO. You can still feel the difference in non-1.6 games, but it's certainly more apparent in 1.6.

As far as your coding question, I don't know if that's a possibility or not. I do know that newer games have problems like high input lag: http://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/preview2/

As far as feeling fine on the desktop but feeling inaccuracy ingame, it is common, yes. It's typically only in FPS games where you will feel a difference in mice (though I don't do anything especially intricate on the desktop so other people might have varying experiences). The main reason I mentioned it for the G502 is because I reviewed the FK previously and it had big issues on the desktop. Typically all mice feel the same on the desktop environment unless there is a specific problem with that mouse, or if you're using the mouse on a high DPI (or non-native DPI) that it struggles with.


----------



## jmcfab

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I doubt it. Why do you think the g402 would be an upgrade from your mx510?


For one, there are supported drivers and software for Windows 7 to fine tune this mouse. The MX510 stopped at Windows XP for software. I tried out Razer's Deathadder (the CPL edition since you are a counterstrike guy) and liked the adjustability of the software, just not the feel of the mouse.

Two, I tested a 502 which shares a similar shape as the 402. My hand feels very comfortable on the newer style.

Three, considering the technological changes that have occured in the past 11 years, it seems like logitech tried to cover all the bases of function and performance without breaking the budget either.

It will be sad to see the classic design go but I think the g400s is the last of its breed.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jmcfab*
> 
> Three, considering the technological changes that have occured in the past 11 years, it seems like logitech tried to cover all the bases of function and performance.


Ehh... Mice tech has definitely been changing a lot, but it certainly hasn't been consistent improvement.

For example, newer mice have been struggling to hit the malfunction speed of the mx518 (4.5+ m/s) and the accuracy of MLT04 mice.

Those are the two main reasons to buy a gaming mouse. Most of the hype around gaming mice has just been marketing.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ehh... Mice tech has definitely been changing a lot, but it certainly hasn't been consistent improvement.
> 
> For example, newer mice have been struggling to hit the malfunction speed of the mx518 (4.5+ m/s) and the accuracy of MLT04 mice.
> 
> Those are the two main reasons to buy a gaming mouse. Most of the hype around gaming mice has just been marketing.


Well, mice don't struggle to hit 4.5+ m/s anymore. 3310 mice don't neg accel until 5.3+ m/s. I've tested it many times. You may experience a microlag with them but what you do get is no massive speed-related tracking variance like you get on the modern VCSEL based models. So for most people I'd say a high PCS (easily satisfied with 3310, 3366, etc.) and minimal variance in speed-related tracking would be the two most important things. Fine, you can beat this whole "accuracy" thing to death but hey that's your preference. I'll never understand what that's all about. As good as I remember the WMO being, I can't personally see myself being lightyears better with it even in some of the most minimal input lag engines ever made.

Oh, yeah also tried the FK at 450 CPI yesterday and literally couldn't tell the difference in input lag between that and the 2300 CPI step. If it's there, it's very, very small. I can barely detect it, but it could just be psychological that on 450 and 1150 that mouse "drags" EVER so slightly. I think most people wouldn't be able to tell nor care. I know you asked me to test that before, just happened to think of that now. I know @Ino. also has experience with the different steps, didn't he also detect some microlag? Not trying to push this OT, but anyway you did bring up smoothing, in essence.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Well, mice don't struggle to hit 4.5+ m/s anymore. 3310 mice don't neg accel until 5.3+ m/s. I've tested it many times. You may experience a microlag with them but what you do get is no massive speed-related tracking variance like you get on the modern VCSEL based models. So for most people I'd say a high PCS (easily satisfied with 3310, 3366, etc.) and minimal variance in speed-related tracking would be the two most important things. Fine, you can beat this whole "accuracy" thing to death but hey that's your preference. I'll never understand what that's all about. As good as I remember the WMO being, I can't personally see myself being lightyears better with it even in some of the most minimal input lag engines ever made.
> 
> Oh, yeah also tried the FK at 450 CPI yesterday and literally couldn't tell the difference in input lag between that and the 2300 CPI step. If it's there, it's very, very small. I can barely detect it, but it could just be psychological that on 450 and 1150 that mouse "drags" EVER so slightly. I think most people wouldn't be able to tell nor care.


Did you do anything intricate with the FK on the desktop? Like selecting text or something? Because that's when I noticed the problem.

Also, I know the current 3310 and newer mice can hit over 4 m/s, but it's been 10 years that gaming mice have been coming out. So I was referring to that whole time period.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Did you do anything intricate with the FK on the desktop? Like selecting text or something? Because that's when I noticed the problem.
> 
> Also, I know the current 3310 and newer mice can hit over 4 m/s, but it's been 10 years that gaming mice have been coming out. So I was referring to that whole time period.


Yeah agreed it is only recently that sensors are now able to hit sufficiently high speeds for lower sensitivity players as well.

I don't notice any pixel walk at all on 450 CPI, even selecting single characters. Just tested that. I can move the mouse extremely slow and each count comes in, just as slow and with nothing skipped. It's a '13 FK.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Hard to say if it's the shape, but I prefer the G402 in general. Simply because of the much lower weight and the better wheel for me. I would say the shape is better in itself because of the smaller thumbrest.


Thanks. Gonna get one as soon as it's avaible for me. The G502 is the best all round mouse for me, but the G402 has two things I want: lower weight and better wheel. While still having that great shape, software, sensor and looks.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Yeah agreed it is only recently that sensors are now able to hit sufficiently high speeds for lower sensitivity players as well.
> 
> I don't notice any pixel walk at all on 450 CPI, even selecting single characters. Just tested that. I can move the mouse extremely slow and each count comes in, just as slow and with nothing skipped. It's a '13 FK.


I used 450 CPI with my FK too and never had troubles with that.
Then again, might not be the most sensitive to those things.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Also, I know the current 3310 and newer mice can hit over 4 m/s, but it's been 10 years that gaming mice have been coming out. So I was referring to that whole time period.


I think Avago didn't care about you, but Pixart seems to do @Kohler


----------



## Dreyka

My G402 arrived. In terms of shape ergonomics this is a clear step up over the G400 and the mouse feels really light. I can see a lot of attention has been placed into where to use rubber, shape and switch placement. The mouse also feels really light and I actually prefer the stiff rubber cable to the cable Zowie uses which is surprising to myself.

What impresses me the most is Logitech has used rubber on the rear of the mouse where your palm connects to it. The side switches stick out slightly which makes it easier to lift the mouse with your thumb. Honestly, the attention to detail in designing this mouse is well above the others.

I just wish it had a tilt scroll wheel.


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I doubt it. Why do you think the g402 would be an upgrade from your mx510?
> I agree. It is interesting.
> 
> I've played CS 1.6, CSS, and CSGO with this mouse. I even compared the 3.0 and g502 in both 1.6 and CSGO. You can still feel the difference in non-1.6 games, but it's certainly more apparent in 1.6.
> 
> As far as your coding question, I don't know if that's a possibility or not. I do know that newer games have problems like high input lag: http://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/preview2/
> 
> As far as feeling fine on the desktop but feeling inaccuracy ingame, it is common, yes. It's typically only in FPS games where you will feel a difference in mice (though I don't do anything especially intricate on the desktop so other people might have varying experiences). The main reason I mentioned it for the G502 is because I reviewed the FK previously and it had big issues on the desktop. Typically all mice feel the same on the desktop environment unless there is a specific problem with that mouse, or if you're using the mouse on a high DPI (or non-native DPI) that it struggles with.


That test hasn't got anything to do with tracking or am I misunderstanding something? I'm really not sure how to test that or if it's even possible. Is it safe to assume that because there is a lot of input lag on button clicks it applies to tracking so it feels worse? Have they tested 1.6? It would be nice to have some numbers to compare.


----------



## Arc0s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> My G402 arrived. In terms of shape ergonomics this is a clear step up over the G400 and the mouse feels really light. I can see a lot of attention has been placed into where to use rubber, shape and switch placement. The mouse also feels really light and I actually prefer the stiff rubber cable to the cable Zowie uses which is surprising to myself.
> 
> What impresses me the most is Logitech has used rubber on the rear of the mouse where your palm connects to it. The side switches stick out slightly which makes it easier to lift the mouse with your thumb. Honestly, the attention to detail in designing this mouse is well above the others.
> 
> I just wish it had a tilt scroll wheel.


What type of grip do you use (claw,palm, finger tip)? Does the "sniper" button get in the way?


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arc0s*
> 
> What type of grip do you use (claw,palm, finger tip)? Does the "sniper" button get in the way?


Palm/claw hybrid but I can palm grip or claw grip this mouse.

"Sniper" button is quite far forward and only the tip of my thumb touch is. Haven't accidentally clicked it and I like the placement as I can grip the mouse comfortably and click it when needed.


----------



## ixelion

I really loved the G502 shape, the way it placed my wrist on a slight 45 degree angle, but it was too heavy for me. Would I like the G402? if not any recommendations on similarly ergonomic mouse to the g502.


----------



## Arc0s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Palm/claw hybrid but I can palm grip or claw grip this mouse.
> 
> "Sniper" button is quite far forward and only the tip of my thumb touch is. Haven't accidentally clicked it and I like the placement as I can grip the mouse comfortably and click it when needed.


I see, I use the same palm/claw grip so this should work, thanks.


----------



## Arc0s

What would be the best place to pre order this mouse in the US, Newegg or Amazon. Newegg says it will release 9/5/14 but Amazon doesn't have a release date yet. Amazon has a good return policy but they are charging taxes in my state now







.How good is Newegg's return policy? I've ordered from them before but never had to return anything.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> My G402 arrived. In terms of shape ergonomics this is a clear step up over the G400 and the mouse feels really light. I can see a lot of attention has been placed into where to use rubber, shape and switch placement. The mouse also feels really light and I actually prefer the stiff rubber cable to the cable Zowie uses which is surprising to myself.
> 
> What impresses me the most is Logitech has used rubber on the rear of the mouse where your palm connects to it. The side switches stick out slightly which makes it easier to lift the mouse with your thumb. Honestly, the attention to detail in designing this mouse is well above the others.
> 
> I just wish it had a tilt scroll wheel.


Where you live? I want to try this so badly but not available in the States yet... T_T


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> My G402 arrived. In terms of shape ergonomics this is a clear step up over the G400 and the mouse feels really light. I can see a lot of attention has been placed into where to use rubber, shape and switch placement. The mouse also feels really light and I actually prefer the stiff rubber cable to the cable Zowie uses which is surprising to myself.
> 
> What impresses me the most is Logitech has used rubber on the rear of the mouse where your palm connects to it. The side switches stick out slightly which makes it easier to lift the mouse with your thumb. Honestly, the attention to detail in designing this mouse is well above the others.
> 
> I just wish it had a tilt scroll wheel.


Holy hell, how do you get one so fast?


----------



## munaim1

Subbed to read later.


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> My G402 arrived. In terms of shape ergonomics this is a clear step up over the G400 and the mouse feels really light. I can see a lot of attention has been placed into where to use rubber, shape and switch placement. The mouse also feels really light and I actually prefer the stiff rubber cable to the cable Zowie uses which is surprising to myself.
> 
> What impresses me the most is Logitech has used rubber on the rear of the mouse where your palm connects to it. The side switches stick out slightly which makes it easier to lift the mouse with your thumb. Honestly, the attention to detail in designing this mouse is well above the others.
> 
> I just wish it had a tilt scroll wheel.


Where did you order from!? My Logitech order still says "Boxed Shipment".


----------



## javamoose

Just found a video review, sorry if it's already posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xj2iDD4THM


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *javamoose*
> 
> Just found a video review, sorry if it's already posted.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xj2iDD4THM


One of the worst video review around.

Whatever it's because he's yoga cast member


----------



## Nilizum

Not as bad as the other one where half the video the guy reads off the box...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> That test hasn't got anything to do with tracking or am I misunderstanding something? I'm really not sure how to test that or if it's even possible. Is it safe to assume that because there is a lot of input lag on button clicks it applies to tracking so it feels worse? Have they tested 1.6? It would be nice to have some numbers to compare.


I think they use high speed cameras to test it. They might have a description there of their methods. I haven't seen one for 1.6 and I just googled to see if I could find one, but couldn't.

The suggestion is that yes, high input lag would mean that your mouse position and clicks are delayed, so it would feel worse. Therefore when using a subpar mouse in a game with high input lag your perception of the mouse's performance would be masked by the poor performance of the game. I have no idea why some games have higher input lag.

I don't know if this is the reason or one of the reasons that mice feel different in different games (even when using raw_input), it's just something I've seen that seems like it could be a possible explanation.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Not as bad as the other one where half the video the guy reads off the box...


lmao. Pretty sure manufacturers seek out people like that where they know they're gonna give a good review, and send them early samples to get good reviews out before the mouse is released to most people.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> There are limits to what I can share.


Can you explain the logic behind the G402 cable. Why did you go for such a stiff cable because everything else about the design has been clearly well thought about.

The stiff cable simply doesn't work when doing the usual loop and as the loop reduces in size when swiping to the left it adds resistance to your movement.

The only mouse cable I haver ever loved is on the Razer Orochi 2013. Can't you just use that in the future.


----------



## Axaion

can you share the logics behinda sniper button for a 100% fps oriented mouse when there is no pro players, or top players that uses one?


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> can you share the logics behinda sniper button for a 100% fps oriented mouse when there is no pro players, or top players that uses one?


I don't find that it gets in the way and it can be rebinded.

Pretty much all optical mice are the 'budget' mice in the lineup for all gaming peripheral makers. The reason is so they can create price tiering where on paper the mouse will have less features and a lower CPI than the more expensive mouse. The G502 ticks more boxes than the G402 such as:


Braided cable
Weights
Higher DPI
More buttons
Tilt scroll wheel
Metal scroll wheel
Unlockable scroll wheel

Of course, none of these features really matter to us but they are what appeals to the average PC gamer. The G402 is meant to tick less boxes but it still needs to tick some such as number of buttons, "sniper button" and have a medium range DPI. Logitech has also tried to make this mouse more feature rich by going for the highest IPS route to make it stand out amongst the competitors. Every gaming peripheral maker knows this is how the business works.

There are problems with the G402. The middle click is stiff and the mouse wheel doesn't soften the landing. Feels like a budget logitech mouse middle click that jars the bone with each click.

The mouse feet are too thin and the bottom of the mouse rubs against my cloth pads. I'm using 5 Logitech G1 mouse feelt to elevate it off the ground and the glide has greatly improved.

They really need to fix that cable as well and go with something thin, flexible and lightweight.


----------



## Axaion

It gets in the way for most people that do not desire such a gimmick

Which is all it is when they say designed for FPS gamers, As i said, mention one top or pro player that uses that junk.

I dont even know why anyone would defend this, is this LogiClock.net?


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> It gets in the way for most people that do not desire such a gimmick
> 
> Which is all it is when they say designed for FPS gamers, As i said, mention one top or pro player that uses that junk.
> 
> I dont even know why anyone would defend this, is this LogiClock.net?


That wasn't defending. It was just an explanation of why the button is there.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> That wasn't defending. It was just an explanation of why the button is there.


And ignoring the point of "fps" mouse
We all know that some people just love those LEDs and so on, but seriously?, aint there enough useless stuff on the 502?, they obviously didnt listen to this part of the community, or whoever tested it, sold out big time.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> can you share the logics behinda sniper button for a 100% fps oriented mouse when there is no pro players, or top players that uses one?


I kind of asked this in the other thread.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> It's a sniper button, it even has a scope on it. The mouse is marketed as an FPS mouse. Can anyone honestly provide an example of a single high level FPS gamer for ANY FPS game on the planet that actually uses a sniper button like this to halve their cm/360 when scoped in?
> 
> I can't.


Response:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Derp, I don't have an example of a pro using the button for that function. I do have a lot of data that suggests it is a very popular feature with a wide range of gamers. One of our goals is to help more gamers understand that high DPI doesn't equal more accuracy or better FPS performance, and that low DPI with high speed gives you much more accuracy. This is why I talk about how pros play with low sens and fast movements in the videos we posted.
> 
> Chev, the mouse runs at 1ms by default.


----------



## Axaion

Exactly, he pretty much admits it should not be there at all, but yet it is.

All it'll do is make people use the maximum dpi for "my ultra precision" and click the button all the time, wasting effort to learn to use one sensitivity.

Does anyone really expect them to figure this out?, its not like they said it on the box or whatever

Also, personally that button is too far back, so itll rub against my thumb 24/7 -_-


----------



## Merenix

I purchased g502 from best buy and had to send it back cause of the sniper button I kept clicking it and even though you can disable it gets annoying only hope this wont be Logitech new agenda from now on


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> And ignoring the point of "fps" mouse
> We all know that some people just love those LEDs and so on, but seriously?, aint there enough useless stuff on the 502?, they obviously didnt listen to this part of the community, or whoever tested it, sold out big time.


How much time do you think there actually was between the design phase of the 502 and the 402? They were likely a couple weeks a part. It's not like they put the 502 on the market then just magically started the 402 development and kicked it out in a couple months after taking a bunch of "advice" from the community. You obviously don't have much of a grasp on how the industry, or manufacturing works.

If the feature is a dud you probably won't see it back on the next designs that take the current ones' place. Unless they have another mouse on the way that was already previously developed without the sniper button. It takes a looong time for the feedback on a brand new mouse to reach a development phase to replace an existing product, or create an alternative product (if that's even what they choose to do).


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Exactly, he pretty much admits it should not be there at all, but yet it is.
> 
> All it'll do is make people use the maximum dpi for "my ultra precision" and click the button all the time, wasting effort to learn to use one sensitivity.
> 
> Does anyone really expect them to figure this out?, its not like they said it on the box or whatever
> 
> Also, personally that button is too far back, so itll rub against my thumb 24/7 -_-


I'm planning to bind the mouse wheel click to that sniper button. I never liked using the wheel as a middle mouse button and this sniper button might be better. Using it like that, it might actually be good that it's touching the thumb at all times as this means it can be clicked without having to move the thumb.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boogdud*
> 
> How much time do you think there actually was between the design phase of the 502 and the 402? They were likely a couple weeks a part. It's not like they put the 502 on the market then just magically started the 402 development and kicked it out in a couple months after taking a bunch of "advice" from the community. You obviously don't have much of a grasp on how the industry, or manufacturing works.
> 
> If the feature is a dud you probably won't see it back on the next designs that take the current ones' place. Unless they have another mouse on the way that was already previously developed without the sniper button. It takes a looong time for the feedback on a brand new mouse to reach a development phase to replace an existing product, or create an alternative product (if that's even what they choose to do).


Ive got plenty grasp on how it works, but you obviosly dont see that im saying they made two very similar mice, and just spew out marketing for the masses

While that -does- net them a lot of money, its not what a lot of people want, seeing as the people that wants this, would buy the 502 instead.

Lets be reasonable, the people that the mouse caters to (not pro or top players in FPS.) love LEDs, weight systems, nameplates, macros, tons of buttons and all that, it will sell plenty just because of them.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> I'm planning to bind the mouse wheel click to that sniper button. I never liked using the wheel as a middle mouse button and this sniper button might be better. Using it like that, it might actually be good that it's touching the thumb at all times as this means it can be clicked without having to move the thumb.


 That is a good idea.

I like the button, it doesn't get in the way and I don't misclick it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Ive got plenty grasp on how it works, but you obviosly dont see that im saying they made two very similar mice, and just spew out marketing for the masses
> 
> While that -does- net them a lot of money, its not what a lot of people want, seeing as the people that wants this, would buy the 502 instead.
> 
> Lets be reasonable, the people that the mouse caters to (not pro or top players in FPS.) love LEDs, weight systems, nameplates, macros, tons of buttons and all that, it will sell plenty just because of them.


I don't think you understand. Pro gamers and wannabe pro gamers are an extremely small minority and the only reason we get stuff is because they can work us into their business strategy. We get "mid-tier" mice with optical sensors because they fit nicely into their tiered feature list but "mid-tier" mice also cater to people to average gamers on smaller budgets so the mouse still needs to be appealing to them.

You are making a big deal out of a single button that only bothers some and is useful to others. Otherwise, go wait for the new Zowie EC1/2.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> You are making a big deal out of a single button that only bothers some and is useful to others.


If used as intended I'm pretty sure this would make anyone who uses it worse at aiming. Sure it can be disabled or bound to do something else but it's in a position that will get in the way for many people. Just gripping a mouse and having a button clicking every now and then can be a big deal breaker.

It's truly a gimmick with more negatives than positives IMO.


----------



## Dreyka

Is it only me and Ino that currently have this mouse?

General impression from me is that it is a good mouse but Logitech needs improve the cable, soften the middle click and thicken the mouse feet. I would have also liked a tilt scroll wheel.


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Ive got plenty grasp on how it works, but you obviosly dont see that im saying they made two very similar mice, and just spew out marketing for the masses


It's been this way for, what, 10 years now? Logitech G almost always makes a higher end gaming mouse, then makes a less expensive version for those that don't want to spend more than $50 on a mouse.

G7/G5
G500/G400
G500s/G400s

Now the G502/G402

I get that it has a feature you don't like, and there are others don't like the feature as well, but it's always been this way. People didn't like the G7/5 for removing the extra side button and only having one, they did a revision a while later with the SE version, etc. I'm sure they'll go through a revision with these that may have a different button layout etc. but it's not going to be real soon.

Quote:


> While that -does- net them a lot of money, its not what a lot of people want, seeing as the people that wants this, would buy the 502 instead.
> 
> Lets be reasonable, the people that the mouse caters to (not pro or top players in FPS.) love LEDs, weight systems, nameplates, macros, tons of buttons and all that, it will sell plenty just because of them.


You're basically describing every Logitech gaming mouse ever. They've never had a history of making boutique, pro-level, no-nonsense mice. I get what you're saying, but they're out to make money and make the best product they can to appeal to the largest audience possible.

Who knows, maybe now that they're sponsoring teams and getting into the competitive scene we'll see something come along more along the lines of the no-frills pro style.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Is it only me and Ino that currently have this mouse?
> 
> General impression from me is that it is a good mouse but Logitech needs improve the cable, soften the middle click and thicken the mouse feet.


Dude... someone asked you where you bought it, and you didn't answer...


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> Dude... someone asked you where you bought it, and you didn't answer...


Third party seller and they only sold one. No idea how they got it.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Third party seller and they only sold one. No idea how they got it.


Here in Germany, I see a seller mentioning end of this week as a date, I see some sellers mentioning end of the month, and most don't mention any date of availability.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> Here in Germany, I see a seller mentioning end of this week as a date, I see some sellers mentioning end of the month, and most don't mention any date of availability.


I honestly don't know. Mouse was boxed and sealed but I figure Logitech has an established release date for each country.


----------



## Nilizum

I read the Logitech Gaming Facebook comments... Those no-sense consumers are actually ASKING for more LEDs and buttons... Sigh =/


----------



## Ino.

Regarding the sniper button: while this is a mouse for FPS players it is not a purist mouse.

I don't understand why everyone here doesn't get why Logitech added this button. It's because consumers demanded it.

We here are a very niche segment of the gaming mouse market. Our views do not match the views of a large number of possible buyers.
Logitech can rather lose a few of us as customers than lots of casual users.

Honestly, the sniper button is just a third thumb button, it's in a convenient position, you can easily use it for something different than "dpi shift"
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I read the Logitech Gaming Facebook comments... Those no-sense consumers are actually ASKING for more LEDs and buttons... Sigh =/


Of course, the average consumer for mice still likes the RAT style. People like me who prefer mice that have a rather simple/elegant design are a minority.


----------



## hza

I think it's because some dudes here adore to be and stay biased and offend ANY kind of new offering as often as they get the chance to.


----------



## fellcbr1

Technically the G402 has the same number of buttons than the G400s.. i actually prefer the button placement on the G402 as to the older models.


----------



## LewisASTL

I really want to see ho far this trend will go.

But i am not worried about that. There are and there will be forever some well done mouse. Just don't buy RATs


----------



## smog11

INO was much faster the I, but i gave you high resolution foto of sensor, and how to open this mice. Cheers.
In my opinion feeling is very nice, maybe little bit smothnes then my DA13 (or maybe only because of the different shape), but i dont know why, this mouse play better for my. In quake i reach better accuracy- mostly with Rail. Maybe because g402 has better buttons. I dont know (buttons its not only switch, its also PCB, software...).
Foto (open in new tab for high res) .




ps: in fusion engine I achiewed 7,4 m/s (too small mouse pad).
ps2: sniper button is nice placed - don't disturbed if its not need, if we need it- is in right place (for c4 or knife)
sory for bad eng


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *smog11*
> 
> INO was much faster the I, but i gave you high resolution foto of sensor, and how to open this mice. Cheers.
> In my opinion feeling is very nice, maybe little bit smothnes then my DA13 (or maybe only because of the different shape), but i dont know why, this mouse play better for my. In quake i reach better accuracy- mostly with Rail. Maybe because g402 has better buttons. I dont know (buttons its not only switch, its also PCB, software...).
> Foto (click to open in high quality) .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ps: in fusion engine I achiewed 7,4 m/s (too small mouse pad).
> ps2: sniper button is nice placed - don't disturbed if its not need, if we need it- is in right place (for c4 or knife)
> sory for bad eng


Where you get your own g402 

Nice photo by the way


----------



## smog11

Its my work - write review gaming stuff in biggest site in my country. This photo isn't to pro. straight from the camera. I dont cycle them in Photoshop. Thank You.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Regarding the sniper button: while this is a mouse for FPS players it is not a purist mouse.
> 
> I don't understand why everyone here doesn't get why Logitech added this button. It's because consumers demanded it.
> 
> We here are a very niche segment of the gaming mouse market. Our views do not match the views of a large number of possible buyers.
> Logitech can rather lose a few of us as customers than lots of casual users.
> 
> Honestly, the sniper button is just a third thumb button, it's in a convenient position, you can easily use it for something different than "dpi shift"
> Of course, the average consumer for mice still likes the RAT style. People like me who prefer mice that have a rather simple/elegant design are a minority.


Consumers demanded it? Only a few awful mice even have it as an option. I completely believe that there were some who asked for it but a large portion"demanding" it? I call complete BS. Logitech wanted to check a box just in case.

During your excuses you go on to mention that this isn't a purist mouse and that this is a niche forum which is another strange situation. If there was ever a place to logically criticize a mouse, it's here. This isn't facebook so lets stop being so damn understanding about everything. You certainly shouldn't be having problems with understanding why people here of all places are voicing their opinions instead of lapping up whatever is put in front of them.


----------



## Atavax

I agree with Derp. I think if more people were demanding it, we would see a higher percentage of gaming mice with it. I think after Logitech abandoned the high DPI gimmick, they are looking for new effective marketing specs, the high amount of gimmicky buttons in combination with very high speeds and calling their mice the fastest is Logitech's strategy. There is such a high demand for a third thumb button that zero Razer mice have it unless you count the Naga's grid of side mouse buttons? Zero Steelseries mice have it? 1 Roccat mouse has it. Zero Zowie mice have it. Zero mionix mice have it. And Logitech needs not one, but the two mice with their two best sensors to also have a gimmicky third thumb button.


----------



## semantics

Logitech isn't competing exactly for the same group of people that buy Zowie, Steelseries or Mionix (those are no thrills groups that generally stick to plain ambidextrous mice with little features). Plus logitech does retail heavily.

I mean you exactly gave a reason for logitech not to do that. It's crowded market, standing out in a crowded market is difficult. For the most part i've used the extra buttons, to remap them for Middle Mouse button, which is currently what i mapped the sniper button to on my G502. Before that i used the top buttons, at least for me i've never liked to click in a scroll wheel, i'd prefer if they never clicked at all.

Logitech has it's own segment is carters to, which it shares mostly against MatCatz, Roccat and Razer(although razer is more split between trying to be feature heavy and no thrills, which is why they have too many products)


----------



## Atavax

Roccat and Razer have both no thrills and gimmicky mice, because they are large mouse companies that should appeal to a wide audience.

Logitech is a large mouse company and should appeal to a wide audience, but 5 of their 7 gaming mice have more then 2 thumb buttons. 1 of 8 of Razer's gaming mice have more then 2 thumb buttons. 1 of 15 of Roccat's has more then 2 thumb buttons. 1 of the 2 of Logitech's mice that don't have more then 2 side mouse buttons is being replaced by one that does have more then 2 side mouse buttons. And the one that doesn't have more then 2 smb that isn't immediately being replaced is a budget gaming mouse. Logitech is heavily neglecting a large segment of the gaming mouse market. The segment that looking at every mouse company outside of Logitech, appears to be the largest.


----------



## Nilizum

The Sniper button for a lot of us (including me) is isn't preferred because we're a niche part of the consumer base--right, I get that. Well regardless, I still want this mouse because I'm a huge MX518 fan. Real talk though, it needs to come out faster.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> I think after *Logitech abandoned the high DPI gimmick*,


Quote:


> Originally Posted by CPate View Post
> 
> Derp, I don't have an example of a pro using the button for that function. I do have a lot of data that suggests it is a very popular feature with a wide range of gamers. One of our goals is to help more gamers understand that high DPI doesn't equal more accuracy or better FPS performance, and that low DPI with high speed gives you much more accuracy. This is why I talk about how pros play with low sens and fast movements in the videos we posted.


It's interesting to hear the Logitech guys (François Morier as well) consistently say this when they are the front runners of the high DPI war marketing scam... and really always have been...

Back in the day it started out with the mx mice at 1600dpi vs the microsoft mice at 400dpi.

And now the latest frankenstein is 12000 dpi...


----------



## semantics

To be fair the G502 does 12000 dpi somewhat legit, although some seem to say there is smoothing past the 6k dpi which is still crazy high even for 4k setups.


----------



## Nilizum

I talked to some Logitech people, they said releases within 2-3 weeks, so should be before September.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Consumers demanded it? Only a few awful mice even have it as an option. I completely believe that there were some who asked for it but a large portion"demanding" it? I call complete BS. Logitech wanted to check a box just in case.
> 
> During your excuses you go on to mention that this isn't a purist mouse and that this is a niche forum which is another strange situation. If there was ever a place to logically criticize a mouse, it's here. This isn't facebook so lets stop being so damn understanding about everything. You certainly shouldn't be having problems with understanding why people here of all places are voicing their opinions instead of lapping up whatever is put in front of them.


Relax. Just get the G402 and take out the sniper button along with the switches. Reduced weight. If you don't like the empty space, just put some masking tape or putty in it and do a sand job.

Well, you seem pretty unhappy with Logitech's decision, so you will probably say something like, "Why should I waste time, void the warranty, and ruin the mouse skates just to fix a bad design choice by Logitech?"

I mean, aside from the stupid Sniper button which I also hate, this is just a simple solution I can offer you. I mean, it seems like you want to use this mouse, but the sniper button seems to be holding you back.

Big companies like Logitech only care about minimizing and maximizing, especially when it comes to gross income. They lick our whines and tears up without a shred of remorse. I mean, I get it is great and all to voice your opinion, but honestly a majority of your posts just show the same contempt for this mouse. I think they already noted your frustrations, but it is not going to move their choice. Again, business is about min and maxing. Your semantics just get in the way of that and they frankly don't care. The reality of it is, we are at the lower end of the consumer spectrum. You can't expect people to invest stocks in NASDAQ when you ignore where the majority of the stock potential is coming from--no-sense consumers and their pleas which are a majority--vs the minority that wants elegance in design. I'm sorry we do not live in an ideal world. "If you do not like how something in society works, instead of trying to changing others change yourself first."

I mean, it is not even that bad really. The mouse is first of all, at least slightly lower weight, and the Sniper button is all the way up front. Who the heck has an orthodox grip that reaches that far?

---

We can tell Logitech, "HEY GUYS, WE WANT A NO GIMMICK VERSION OF THE G402!" If they listen, then hurray for us, but if they don't then we cannot do anything about it. Don't stress yourself over something like this, is what I'm trying to say. I mean, be open minded and try it out first if anything, because it may not be as bad as you think it might be. If you don't like it, then just return it! So simple!


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Relax. Just get the G402 and take out the sniper button along with the switches. Reduced weight. If you don't like the empty space, just put some masking tape or putty in it and do a sand job.
> 
> Well, you seem pretty unhappy with Logitech's decision, so you will probably say something like, "Why should I waste time, void the warranty, and ruin the mouse skates just to fix a bad design choice by Logitech?"
> 
> I mean, aside from the stupid Sniper button which I also hate, this is just a simple solution I can offer you. I mean, it seems like you want to use this mouse, but the sniper button seems to be holding you back.
> 
> Big companies like Logitech only care about minimizing and maximizing, especially when it comes to gross income. They lick our whines and tears up without a shred of remorse. I mean, I get it is great and all to voice your opinion, but honestly a majority of your posts just show the same contempt for this mouse. I think they already noted your frustrations, but it is not going to move their choice. Again, business is about min and maxing. Your semantics just get in the way of that and they frankly don't care. The reality of it is, we are at the lower end of the consumer spectrum. You can't expect people to invest stocks in NASDAQ when you ignore where the majority of the stock potential is coming from--no-sense consumers and their pleas which are a majority--vs the minority that wants elegance in design. I'm sorry we do not live in an ideal world. "If you do not like how something in society works, instead of trying to changing others change yourself first."
> 
> I mean, it is not even that bad really. The mouse is first of all, at least slightly lower weight, and the Sniper button is all the way up front. Who the heck has an orthodox grip that reaches that far?
> 
> ---
> 
> We can tell Logitech, "HEY GUYS, WE WANT A NO GIMMICK VERSION OF THE G402!" If they listen, then hurray for us, but if they don't then we cannot do anything about it. Don't stress yourself over something like this, is what I'm trying to say. I mean, be open minded and try it out first if anything, because it may not be as bad as you think it might be. If you don't like it, then just return it! So simple!


I'm not interested in buying this mouse, the shape doesn't fit my preferences. I merely supported someone who had similar concerns. I wouldn't have said anything but the excuses given as a response to that poster for this feature were just terrible.

And you asked who would hit that button? It's not far fetched at all. Even though he *claims* it's not a problem for him, his thumb is resting on it while gripping the mouse.


----------



## xmr1

Sniper buttons are basically another self-fulfilling prophecy for marketing like DPI was. You can't really claim it's what the customer wants when you told the customer they want it in the first place.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I'm not interested in buying this mouse, the shape doesn't fit my preferences. I merely supported someone who had similar concerns. I wouldn't have said anything but the excuses given as a response to that poster for this feature were just terrible.
> 
> And you asked who would hit that button? It's not far fetched at all. Even though he *claims* it's not a problem for him, his thumb is resting on it while gripping the mouse.


Those aren't excuses, they are reasons. However you seem pretty immune to any reasons other than your own.

CPate himself stated they have data suggesting that it is a popular feature with many possible buyers. If it "ticks a box" that gives them more sales then why would they not add it?

And my thumb did not ever rest on the button, it's in front of it. In the time I used the G402 I never hit it by accident. I did say that this might not be the case for everyone.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I'm not interested in buying this mouse, the shape doesn't fit my preferences. I merely supported someone who had similar concerns. I wouldn't have said anything but the excuses given as a response to that poster for this feature were just terrible.
> 
> And you asked who would hit that button? It's not far fetched at all. Even though he *claims* it's not a problem for him, his thumb is resting on it while gripping the mouse.


IDK bout you, but if I disliked a mouse then I probably wouldn't post as much as you do about it. It seemed like you were trying to advocate a better mouse overall, regardless of supporting someone else's concerns (i think they can speak for themselves right?). Why would someone try to advocate a better mouse if they are not even going to use it or have remotely any interest in? But uuuh... OK.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> IDK bout you, but if I disliked a mouse then I probably wouldn't post as much as you do about it. It seemed like you were trying to advocate a better mouse overall, regardless of supporting someone else's concerns (i think they can speak for themselves right?). Why would someone try to advocate a better mouse if they are not even going to use it or have remotely any interest in? But uuuh... OK.


There's nothing wrong with discussing Logitech's choices such as choosing a lower end sensor to pair with the accelerometer instead of using a 3310 or 3366 or including a sniper button with "data" claiming that enough customers asked for it. Anyone who is against such discussions are most likely biased in one way or another.

There's an ignore feature if you need it.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> If it "ticks a box" that gives them more sales then why would they not add it?.


1. Because 4 of their mice already have something similar.
2. There is soon to only be one of their mice that doesn't have something similar.
3. It adds cost
4. It adds weight
5. Ergonomically it can get in the way
6. Many potential customers don't want it

I find it hard to believe that no other major mouse company thinks it makes sense to make more then 1 mouse in their lineup have more then 2 smb, and there is a giant enough demand for them that Logitech is compelled to make 5 of their 6 gaming mice have it. Either everyone but Logitech is living in some alternate reality or just Logitech is.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> There's nothing wrong with discussing Logitech's choices such as choosing a lower end sensor to pair with the accelerometer instead of using a 3310 or 3366 or including a sniper button with "data" claiming that enough customers asked for it. Anyone who is against such discussions are most likely biased in one way or another.
> 
> There's an ignore feature if you need it.


Not against your discussions. I was genuinely interested in your perspective of the matter. Just saying though, seems like you wanted 'something' out of it.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> 1. Because 4 of their mice already have something similar.
> 2. There is soon to only be one of their mice that doesn't have something similar.
> 3. It adds cost
> 4. It adds weight
> 5. Ergonomically it can get in the way
> 6. Many potential customers don't want it
> 
> I find it hard to believe that no other major mouse company thinks it makes sense to make more then 1 mouse in their lineup have more then 2 smb, and there is a giant enough demand for them that Logitech is compelled to make 5 of their 6 gaming mice have it. Either everyone but Logitech is living in some alternate reality or just Logitech is.


1. So? If there is a "demand" for them on every mouse, why not put them on every mouse? Also they are only found on the G series mice, their office mice don't have them.
2. See above
3. Worth it if it increases revenue
4. Average consumer still likes mice with more weight to them
5. True, it can
6. How do we know? Because most of us on OCN don't want it? We circlej**k our own preferences all the time, makes it easy to confuse that with what the broader market wants. I don't think it is wrong to state one's miscontent with a sniper button, I'm just irritated that some completely reject to see things from a business stand point.

To clarify: I'm only taking this position for the value of discussion, I don't even like the idea of a sniper button nor would I ever need one. I do understand Logitechs position in this though. And it's just not in the way of my grip. Never. Not even when I press really firmly. That's why I'm "okay" with it.


----------



## semantics

More buttons though are super useful outside of games, but the no fun police would rather have everything be the zowie FK form and buttons max, maybe less buttons. solid colors only and 2 large pads underneath. More of the same! I find it funny that's how people approach technology, make it exactly like this old thing but slightly better, not too much better because then it's different, different is no good.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.


----------



## Mych

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> More buttons though are super useful outside of games, but the no fun police would rather have everything be the zowie FK form and buttons max, maybe less buttons. solid colors only and 2 large pads underneath. More of the same! I find it funny that's how people approach technology, make it exactly like this old thing but slightly better, not too much better because then it's different, different is no good.
> 
> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.


Everything new isn't necessarily advancement. Besides, there are reasons why FK was designed that way, past lessons shouldn't be forgotten either. Could be argued that g502/402 sacrifice too much (weight etc.) for the advancements; while sensors are interesting, other advancements seem to amount to more buttons. Buttons aren't new.

So, there was a name for a third mouse right? One practical option out of three wouldn't be too bad a ratio for Logitech.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> More buttons though are super useful outside of games, but the no fun police would rather have everything be the zowie FK form and buttons max, maybe less buttons. solid colors only and 2 large pads underneath. More of the same! I find it funny that's how people approach technology, make it exactly like this old thing but slightly better, not too much better because then it's different, different is no good.
> 
> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.


It's not a matter of reasonable vs. unreasonable man. It's a matter of adapting to something worth adapting for.

A lighter mouse will allow for faster movements and faster stopping compared to a heavier mouse with more momentum.
A mouse with less buttons would allow for better grip and less weight than that with buttons getting in the way and the added weight of the button's switches.
A team's wasted R&D for shiny LED placement could've been used towards a better ergonomic design or better performance overall.

Gimmicks =/= approaching technology. I find it funny how you approach gimmicks as a form of technological advancement.

Wanna talk cars? A lighter version of the same sports car will cut the corner faster than the heavier version of the same sports car. Same as in same frame, same build, same engine, but different weight. Oh wait, you probably prefer the "technological advancements" of the additional 2 seats for your friends or a GPS navigation system in the sports car. Why not make it gold plated for the bling bling when cutting the corner and achieve maximum torque--ahem gaudiness--with all that heavy gold on your car? I'll stick with my carbon fiber, see you at the finish line.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> It's not a matter of reasonable vs. unreasonable man. It's a matter of adapting to something worth adapting for.
> 
> A lighter mouse will allow for faster movements and faster stopping compared to a heavier mouse with more momentum.
> A mouse with less buttons would allow for better grip and less weight than that with buttons getting in the way and the added weight of the button's switches.
> A team's wasted R&D for shiny LED placement could've been used towards a better ergonomic design or better performance overall.
> 
> Gimmicks =/= approaching technology. I find it funny how you approach gimmicks as a form of technological advancement.
> 
> Wanna talk cars? A lighter version of the same sports car will cut the corner faster than the heavier version of the same sports car. Same as in same frame, same build, same engine, but different weight. Oh wait, you probably prefer the "technological advancements" of the additional 2 seats for your friends or a GPS navigation system in the sports car. Why not make it gold plated for the bling bling when cutting the corner and achieve maximum torque--ahem gaudiness--with all that heavy gold on your car? I'll stick with my carbon fiber, see you at the finish line.


Sports car reference and all: Most people would rather use a limousine than a sports car, because it has more seats, more comfort, blablabla.

If we take the sports car analogy then Zowie would be something like Ferrari (not really, but bear with me, I'm not into cars that much) while Logitech would be more like VW (with the G Series being Audi or Porsche). Look how Porsche started out and where they are now. Their best selling cars are not the sports cars but the ******ed Cayenne and the Panamera.

The people on this forum (me included) who take their mice on the race track, so to say, are a minotity to those who just like to take theirs for grocery shopping in a fancy fashion.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> There's nothing wrong with discussing Logitech's choices such as choosing a lower end sensor to pair with the accelerometer instead of using a 3310 or 3366 or including a sniper button with "data" claiming that enough customers asked for it. Anyone who is against such discussions are most likely biased in one way or another.
> 
> There's an ignore feature if you need it.


We know extremely little about the performance capabilities of the sensor technology used and any information we do have is through our experiences of how a mouse 'feels' which is incredibly unreliable. I changed the mouse feet on the G402 and it suddenly felt more responsive but that was because I had reduced the friction between the mouse and the pad.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Sniper buttons are basically another self-fulfilling prophecy for marketing like DPI was. You can't really claim it's what the customer wants when you told the customer they want it in the first place.


They do research on what people want. A 'sniper button' is just a button that can be programmed to do anything.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> To be fair the G502 does 12000 dpi somewhat legit, although some seem to say there is smoothing past the 6k dpi which is still crazy high even for 4k setups.


If the PMW-3366 has variable smoothing dependant upon CPI then I don't care how high the CPI goes because low CPI values aren't affected.


----------



## semantics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> More buttons though are super useful outside of games, but the no fun police would rather have everything be the zowie FK form and buttons max, maybe less buttons. solid colors only and 2 large pads underneath. More of the same! I find it funny that's how people approach technology, make it exactly like this old thing but slightly better, not too much better because then it's different, different is no good.
> 
> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter of reasonable vs. unreasonable man. It's a matter of adapting to something worth adapting for.
> 
> A lighter mouse will allow for faster movements and faster stopping compared to a heavier mouse with more momentum.
> A mouse with less buttons would allow for better grip and less weight than that with buttons getting in the way and the added weight of the button's switches.
> A team's wasted R&D for shiny LED placement could've been used towards a better ergonomic design or better performance overall.
> 
> Gimmicks =/= approaching technology. I find it funny how you approach gimmicks as a form of technological advancement.
> 
> Wanna talk cars? A lighter version of the same sports car will cut the corner faster than the heavier version of the same sports car. Same as in same frame, same build, same engine, but different weight. Oh wait, you probably prefer the "technological advancements" of the additional 2 seats for your friends or a GPS navigation system in the sports car. Why not make it gold plated for the bling bling when cutting the corner and achieve maximum torque--ahem gaudiness--with all that heavy gold on your car? I'll stick with my carbon fiber, see you at the finish line.
Click to expand...

What gives you the authority to deem something a gimmick? Useless to you is not useless to everyone, scroll wheels and middle mouse button are useless to me in games I never use them if i can avoid them, so does that mean a mouse shouldn't have a scroll wheel because i couldn't find a use in game? How much of a use do i need before i justify it? I can live without a scroll wheel, but would i like one for general productivity? Yes. Would I want that on a gaming mouse, even though i'd never use it in gaming? Yes, because i wouldn't want a pure gaming mouse. I'm not going set aside a special mouse just for gaming and one for productivity, I would rather have both.

Less buttons allows for better grip? Ever thought to yourself you may just be gripping the mouse wrong? If a mouse is designed for left handed people and you tried to grip it with your right hand, would that be a failure of the mouse or the failure of the user unable to adapt and use the mouse with their left hand.?

Also didn't take long to reach the poor car analogies part of any tech forum.









Logitech is going to do what it's going to do to keep selling mice, if more buttons works for them then it works for them. Not everyone needs to be a Zowie, Steelseries, Mionix clones. Logitech sells a few gaming mice at a time, so they just make a few kinds of mice to maximize their sales unlike razer, roccat and coolermaster who sell like 10 different mice at a time mostly though online retail. Only Logitech 1xx and 3xx mice have ever shown to be feature limited. Expecting their flagship wired mouse and their upper mainstream mouse to be their budget and mainstream mouse is unreasonable expectations. If the G102 or w.e has a sniper button then it seems reasonable to be flippant about it.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Sports car reference and all: Most people would rather use a limousine than a sports car, because it has more seats, more comfort, blablabla.
> 
> If we take the sports car analogy then Zowie would be something like Ferrari (not really, but bear with me, I'm not into cars that much) while Logitech would be more like VW (with the G Series being Audi or Porsche). Look how Porsche started out and where they are now. Their best selling cars are not the sports cars but the ******ed Cayenne and the Panamera.
> 
> The people on this forum (me included) who take their mice on the race track, so to say, are a minotity to those who just like to take theirs for grocery shopping in a fancy fashion.


Good points. In that perspective, yes, more people prefer comfort over performance. The thing I feel about the gaming market is this though... It's a bit different than the automobile market in the sense that a relating advertisement in gaming peripherals is "WIN", "Beating your opponents", getting the "Extra Edge Over Your Opponent", etc. These type of words incite competitiveness, and competitiveness is only better with performance driven ideology than comfort driven ideology. In other words, based on how they market their product, most consumers expect to buy their product to do better, however this is not the case based on how us OCN users view performance.

The whole thing about petty designs on a mouse is what I call a wrongly associated factor, because people don't look at their mice nor are other people they are playing with looking at their mouse when they are playing. In a cars analogy, people look at their car when they drive (at least the front hood) and other people look at it as well and judge based on it. This is kind of a learned thing in society and somehow it became associated with mice as well. PC Peripheral consumers get a false sense of quality from a false sense of associating and end up mixing something they shouldn't want into something they do want. Where's the luxury in losing, is what I'm saying.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> It's not a matter of reasonable vs. unreasonable man. It's a matter of adapting to something worth adapting for.
> 
> A lighter mouse will allow for faster movements and faster stopping compared to a heavier mouse with more momentum.
> A mouse with less buttons would allow for better grip and less weight than that with buttons getting in the way and the added weight of the button's switches.
> A team's wasted R&D for shiny LED placement could've been used towards a better ergonomic design or better performance overall.
> 
> Gimmicks =/= approaching technology. I find it funny how you approach gimmicks as a form of technological advancement.
> 
> Wanna talk cars? A lighter version of the same sports car will cut the corner faster than the heavier version of the same sports car. Same as in same frame, same build, same engine, but different weight. Oh wait, you probably prefer the "technological advancements" of the additional 2 seats for your friends or a GPS navigation system in the sports car. Why not make it gold plated for the bling bling when cutting the corner and achieve maximum torque--ahem gaudiness--with all that heavy gold on your car? I'll stick with my carbon fiber, see you at the finish line.


You should really stop to see everyone as low senser. Therefore your comparison with sports cars is wrong.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Good points. In that perspective, yes, more people prefer comfort over performance. The thing I feel about the gaming market is this though... It's a bit different than the automobile market in the sense that a relating advertisement in gaming peripherals is "WIN", "Beating your opponents", getting the "Extra Edge Over Your Opponent", etc. These type of words incite competitiveness, and competitiveness is only better with performance driven ideology than comfort driven ideology. In other words, based on how they market their product, most consumers expect to buy their product to do better, however this is not the case based on how us OCN users view performance.
> 
> The whole thing about petty designs on a mouse is what I call a wrongly associated factor, because people don't look at their mice nor are other people they are playing with looking at their mouse when they are playing. In a cars analogy, people look at their car when they drive (at least the front hood) and other people look at it as well and judge based on it. This is kind of a learned thing in society and somehow it became associated with mice as well. PC Peripheral consumers get a false sense of quality from a false sense of associating and end up mixing something they shouldn't want into something they do want. Where's the luxury in losing, is what I'm saying.


You really should not compare mice with cars. In your mind you may think there are people who really struggle to compare computer/gaming mice with (sports) cars. Just don't do it, please.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> What gives you the authority to deem something a gimmick? Useless to you is not useless to everyone, scroll wheels and middle mouse button are useless to me in games I never use them if i can avoid them, so does that mean a mouse shouldn't have a scroll wheel because i couldn't find a use in game? How much of a use do i need before i justify it? I can live without a scroll wheel, but would i like one for general productivity? Yes. Would I want that on a gaming mouse, even though i'd never use it in gaming? Yes, because i wouldn't want a pure gaming mouse. I'm not going set aside a special mouse just for gaming and one for productivity, I would rather have both.
> 
> Less buttons allows for better grip? Ever thought to yourself you may just be gripping the mouse wrong? If a mouse is designed for left handed people and you tried to grip it with your right hand, would that be a failure of the mouse or the failure of the user unable to adapt and use the mouse with their left hand.?
> 
> Also didn't take long to reach the poor car analogies part of any tech forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Logitech is going to do what it's going to do to keep selling mice, if more buttons works for them then it works for them. Not everyone needs to be a Zowie, Steelseries, Mionix clones. Logitech sells a few gaming mice at a time, so they just make a few kinds of mice to maximize their sales unlike razer, roccat and coolermaster who sell like 10 different mice at a time mostly though online retail. Only Logitech 1xx and 3xx mice have ever shown to be feature limited. Expecting their flagship wired mouse and their upper mainstream mouse to be their budget and mainstream mouse is unreasonable expectations. If the G102 or w.e has a sniper button then it seems reasonable to be flippant about it.


I'm impartial to everything you've said except the part about the grip. Companies do R&D on mice to suit an orthodox grip style for a wide range of people. Also it's not a matter of me saying the button interferes with my grip. For my hand size, my thumb probably won't even reach it, but some people with bigger hands are going to have this problem, as previously noted by other users. And again, less buttons = less weight. Too much weight on a mouse isn't a good thing. It isn't even stability as the momentum of a heavier mouse is counter-productive to the notion of stability.

Also, if you're going to call my analogy bad, then at least make an effort to refute it?

Oh, and keep in mind Logitech has been (and I think still is) regarded as the #1 mouse seller. It's even written on the box. #1 means something, especially when it comes to performance.

Read my post about how gaming mice are being marketed. I know I've posted it before this as I spent time writing it, but I hope that lets you see another perspective.

Also, people aren't as happy with the G402 is because it has unwarranted gimmicks on Logitech's flagship performing line of MX510 to G400 shapeset. If you want to have performance and comfort, there's other mice. It shouldn't have been the G402 as it kind of goes against how they're even marketing it... As a FPS mouse, like others have said.


----------



## bigjw

If a feature has little benefit in practical use and can be mimicked by any other button through macros, then it is a gimmick. There is no good reason why anyone wouldn't choose dpi toggling over having to hold down a button to change dpi, there's a reason razer and steelseries, who just happen to be much more popular than logitech amongst the more casual gamer user base, don't use sniper buttons.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I'm impartial to everything you've said except the part about the grip. Companies do R&D on mice to suit an orthodox grip style for a wide range of people. Also it's not a matter of me saying the button interferes with my grip. For my hand size, my thumb probably won't even reach it, but some people with bigger hands are going to have this problem, as previously noted by other users. And again, less buttons = less weight. Too much weight on a mouse isn't a good thing. It isn't even stability as the momentum of a heavier mouse is counter-productive to the notion of stability.


Again, not everyone is a low sensitivity user.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> You should really stop to see everyone as low senser. Therefore your comparison with sports cars is wrong.
> You really should not compare mice with cars. In your mind you may think there are people who really struggle to compare computer/gaming mice with (sports) cars. Just don't do it, please.


What the heck guy? I'm not seeing everyone as a low senser? If you even bothered to read what I've written--and i'll reiterate--heavier mice do not give more stability, in fact gives less stability because of the momentum you have to counter. Especially with higher sensitivity players, they need place more importance on stopping on a dime due to their higher error margin. Aiming stability is actually factored by sensor positioning based on a mouse's length and shapeset combined with how hard you grip your mouse.

The only thing heavier mice do is give consumers a false sense of quality grade.

So umm, try again in telling me why my analogy is bad LOL.


----------



## Mych

The more interesting point in car analogy, and I guess Nizilum's point too, is that in a sense they are marketing limousines as sports cars. They have their reasons to do that, perhaps even the best one there is, but it sure rubs performance car fans the wrong way.


----------



## Nilizum

Yup, you're right on target Mych.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> What the heck guy? I'm not seeing everyone as a low senser? If you even bothered to read what I've written--and i'll reiterate--heavier mice do not give more stability, in fact gives less stability because of the momentum you have to counter. Especially with higher sensitivity players, they need place more importance on stopping on a dime due to their higher error margin. Aiming stability is actually factored by sensor positioning based on a mouse's length and shapeset combined with how hard you grip your mouse.
> 
> The only thing heavier mice do is give consumers a false sense of quality grade.
> 
> So umm, try again in telling me why my analogy is bad LOL.


I read your posts and am a high(er) sensitivity player. I had problems with mice like Spawn, Abyssus, Kinzu and their likes because of their weight. I know people who think similar about it.

And I won't try anything since you have your own perspective of things. No matter what I would say could change your mind anyway.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> 1. So? If there is a "demand" for them on every mouse, why not put them on every mouse? Also they are only found on the G series mice, their office mice don't have them.
> 2. See above
> 3. Worth it if it increases revenue
> 4. Average consumer still likes mice with more weight to them
> 5. True, it can
> 6. How do we know? Because most of us on OCN don't want it? We circlej**k our own preferences all the time, makes it easy to confuse that with what the broader market wants. I don't think it is wrong to state one's miscontent with a sniper button, I'm just irritated that some completely reject to see things from a business stand point.
> 
> To clarify: I'm only taking this position for the value of discussion, I don't even like the idea of a sniper button nor would I ever need one. I do understand Logitechs position in this though. And it's just not in the way of my grip. Never. Not even when I press really firmly. That's why I'm "okay" with it.


I don't think the average consumer knows what they want.

It takes years of experience with a variety of different features and options to discover your personal preferences. For example, when the g500(?) came out I had been gaming competitively for many years with many mice (much more experience than the average consumer) yet I didn't know if I wanted a heavier or lighter mouse. I had to experiment with the various weights in the mouse. Now today I know I want a mouse lighter than 90g, among other things.

People see mice on the shelf, one says 4000dpi, the other says 12000. The average consumer isn't informed about dpi so if higher dpi is marketed as better than they're gonna pick the higher dpi mouse.

And to give my experience with the sniper button, it was either hindering my grip or unreachable after being forced to adjust my grip.


----------



## smog11

for my, sniper button is nice placed - don't disturbed if its not needed, if we need it- is in right place and have proper, confortable to use shape. In normal use my thumb is 1mm before this button, so I dont feel them. If I want use it, is clouse enoght to do it fast. But this is personal opinion, dependent on the grip and hand size.
I happy, then Logitech made mouse with more, then 2 side buttons, because alwyas is some way to program it usefull. And usually this button are proper placed and well profiled.
But g402 could weight less then 100g
Still waiting for new gen of G9x (this one can have only 2 side button :> or something with shape of g100 but with side buttons.

@INO- You do not have the impression that the mouse with off the Fusin Engine have minimum diffrent feeling? Or its my placebo?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *smog11*
> 
> @INO- You do not have the impression that the mouse with off the Fusin Engine have minimum diffrent feeling? Or its my placebo?


Afaik you can't disable Fusion Engine permanently, it only shows the sensor value alone in that speed testing software thing, Fusion is always active. So I'd guess what you feel is placebo.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> ...


One thing I wish to know is how exactly G400s' smoothing/lag work. Can you give an estimate with G402? say, 800 DPI?


----------



## Atavax

we know there are a lot of people that like having just 2 smb because almost every other mouse brand has no more then 1 mouse in their lineup with more then 2 smb.

Logitech appears to be going after a Niche, we aren't a niche.


----------



## MadGear

So since my old mouse died I'm using my old MX518v1 again. I used to love this mouse back in the day but today i really cant get a good grip on this because of the stupid lip (using it for a week now).

I'm so used to holding a mouse with my thumb and ring-finger that holding this mouse with thumb and pinky just doesn't feel right and therefore I'm currently going for a grip that really hurts my ring finger after a while. Going by the pictures of the G402 they seem to have gotten rid of that lip, so i guess i should be able to hold this mouse with thumb and ring finger or does it require some bizarre positioning again (palm grip)?

Overall I'm really interested in the tech of this mouse so I'm currently considering to preorder it (to get rid of the MX518). However since it is supposed to succeed the MX500 shape i remain a bit skeptical.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MadGear*


I gripped my MX500 between thumb and ring finger despite that lip being there. I guess my grip is further in the back compared to yours? I searched for the old mouse in the cupboard to check and noticed I can't really reach the front thumb button at all the way I like to grip it.


----------



## MadGear

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> I gripped my MX500 between thumb and ring finger despite that lip being there. I guess my grip is further in the back compared to yours? I searched for the old mouse in the cupboard to check and noticed I can't really reach the front thumb button at all the way I like to grip it.


If i were to hold it that way my grip would be way back resulting in a fingertip grip. Also makes the use of the thumb buttons really awkward because i would loose the grip on the mouse while pressing them.
But honestly, i don't want to get used to this shape anymore at all. Therefore I'm just looking for a replacement and if the grip is improved with the G402 (at least for me), it could very well be the mouse to do just this.


----------



## jerronchua55

Just picked it up at my local retailer, the fusion engine doesn't seem to be working on my unit... With it turned on or off, I'm still getting a max tracking speed of 2.6-2.9m/s (400cpi,500hz) before the mouse malfuctions. Already running on the latest firmware according to LGS.



*EDIT:* Played around with other settings, this is at 400cpi,1000hz:



400cpi, 250hz:



800cpi, 1000hz:



800cpi, 500hz:



800cpi, 250hz:



1600cpi, 1000hz:



1600cpi, 500hz:



Not really pleased with what I'm seeing given I game on 400cpi, 500hz, and also the fact that Logitech did not deliver what they promised... The fusion engine seems to be picky with cpi settings, that's something Logitech needs to address ASAP or *I'm afraid this is a huge marketing scam by Logitech; their fusion engine might have only been programmed to work on a few settings.*


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> Just picked it up at my local retailer, the fusion engine doesn't seem to be working on my unit... With it turned on or off, I'm still getting a max tracking speed of 2.6-2.9m/s (400cpi,500hz) before the mouse malfuctions. Already running on the latest firmware according to LGS..


Where you live 
Thanks for info


----------



## doomleika

oops double post


----------



## jerronchua55

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Where you live
> Thanks for info


Singapore.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> Singapore.


Thanks ._./

Damn it my local store is slow..


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: Jerronchua55



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> Just picked it up at my local retailer, the fusion engine doesn't seem to be working on my unit... With it turned on or off, I'm still getting a max tracking speed of 2.6-2.9m/s (400cpi,500hz) before the mouse malfuctions. Already running on the latest firmware according to LGS.
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT:* Played around with other settings, this is at 400cpi,1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 400cpi, 250hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 250hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 1600cpi, 1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 1600cpi, 500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really pleased with what I'm seeing given I game on 400cpi, 500hz, and also the fact that Logitech did not deliver what they promised... The fusion engine seems to be picky with cpi settings, that's something Logitech needs to address ASAP or *I'm afraid this is a huge marketing scam by Logitech; their fusion engine might have only been programmed to work on a few settings.*








Spoiler: Redacted.



It is more likely that your unit is defective and I don't see any technical reason the fusion engine wouldn't work on all settings because the accelerometer and optical sensor are two separate entities. The accelerometer takes over when the optical sensor malfunctions at high speed.

It is likely that for some reason the accelerometer isn't taking over on certain CPI settings which is probably a firmware problem or it is user error. I'll test on mine.

Which specific settings do you think it isn't working properly on? I will test on mine.

*If you turn off the fusion engine in Logitech software you will never get above 2.9m/s because you have reached the malfunction speed of the AM010 optical sensor.*

On 400cpi/500Hz I'm getting 4.5m/s which is close to the limit of what I can swipe. This is above the 2.7m/s that the optical sensor is capable of and shows the accelerometer is working.

Having said that. Doing some acceleration tests in CS:Go (Mark C fix + Raw Mouse + Sensitivity = 1)

My aim moves downwards with a fast swipe (400cpi&800cpi + 1000Hz + Stock Mouse Feet).

I will upload a video. Swiping quickly left to right on a Overclockers UK 3XL and Glorious PC Gaming Mouse pad will gradually move the cursor downwards. I am swiping between 2.5m/s and 3.5m/s.



Edit 2: Replicated the same problem with a Zowie FK1. Not related to mouse.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> Just picked it up at my local retailer, the fusion engine doesn't seem to be working on my unit... With it turned on or off, I'm still getting a max tracking speed of 2.6-2.9m/s (400cpi,500hz) before the mouse malfuctions. Already running on the latest firmware according to LGS.
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT:* Played around with other settings, this is at 400cpi,1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 400cpi, 250hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 250hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 1600cpi, 1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 1600cpi, 500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really pleased with what I'm seeing given I game on 400cpi, 500hz, and also the fact that Logitech did not deliver what they promised... The fusion engine seems to be picky with cpi settings, that's something Logitech needs to address ASAP or *I'm afraid this is a huge marketing scam by Logitech; their fusion engine might have only been programmed to work on a few settings.*


Try it with MouseTester please and post those results, I'd rather think that LGS is the culprit here.


----------



## jerronchua55

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> 
> Stop making ridiculous accusations.
> 
> It is more likely that your unit is defective and I don't see any technical reason the fusion engine wouldn't work on all settings because the accelerometer and optical sensor are two separate entities. The accelerometer takes over when the optical sensor malfunctions at high speed.
> 
> It is likely that for some reason the accelerometer isn't taking over on certain CPI settings which is probably a firmware problem or it is user error. I'll test on mine.
> 
> Which specific settings do you think it isn't working properly on? I will test on mine.
> 
> *If you turn off the fusion engine in Logitech software you will never get above 2.9m/s because you have reached the malfunction speed of the AM010 optical sensor.*


I am fully aware that the malfuction speed of the AM010 is ~3m/s, if you'd go through the pictures thoroughly you would notice that the mouse fails to track above 3m/s on 400cpi when fusion engine is on. The fusion engine works as it should on 800cpi. On 1600cpi there's some hiccups here and there, it works on 1000hz but not on 500hz.

To proof that it's not human error: (Apparently on enotus mousetest the m/s is way lower)





Results on my Zowie FK1:



Steelseries Rival:


----------



## Nilizum

This is funny, because I talked to a Logitech guy, and he kept saying how he HIGHLY doubts that the mouse is at a retail store. I even told him that a retailer in Singapore has it, and he made up some stuff like, "Oh, it might be black market or fell off a truck". No matter how much I tried to clarify, he kept sticking with the same story. He says it releases this month, but not today or any day previous today, but some day this month. Jerronchua what is going on? Haha


----------



## jerronchua55

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> This is funny, because I talked to a Logitech guy, and he kept saying how he HIGHLY doubts that the mouse is at a retail store. I even told him that a retailer in Singapore has it, and he made up some stuff like, "Oh, it might be black market or fell off a truck". No matter how much I tried to clarify, he kept sticking with the same story. He says it releases this month, but not today or any day previous today, but some day this month. Jerronchua what is going on? Haha




I don't know what you're trying to imply, but if you're being sarcastic, by all means.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> I am fully aware that the malfuction speed of the AM010 is ~3m/s, if you'd go through the pictures thoroughly you would notice that the mouse fails to track above 3m/s on 400cpi when fusion engine is on. The fusion engine works as it should on 800cpi. On 1600cpi there's some hiccups here and there, it works on 1000hz but not on 500hz.
> 
> To proof that it's not human error: (Apparently on enotus mousetest the m/s is way lower)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Results on my Zowie FK1:
> 
> 
> 
> Steelseries Rival:


Please don't use Enotus but rather MouseTester (it's made by microe, search his profile here) an post results of the xVelocity vs time plots.

Don't know what's wrong with your unit, for me it worked on all settings.


----------



## jerronchua55

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Please don't use Enotus but rather MouseTester (it's made by microe, search his profile here) an post results of the xVelocity vs time plots.
> 
> Don't know what's wrong with your unit, for me it worked on all settings.








EDIT:

Test results on my Zowie FK1 as a comparison:


----------



## doomleika

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Test results on my Zowie FK1 as a comparison:






That seems to work pretty well.


----------



## jerronchua55

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> 
> That seems to work pretty well.


Yeah but it's pretty inconsistent imo, and the main thing that still put me off is the fact that I could make the mouse malfuction easily by moving it quickly in big circular motions. I guess I'll end my criticisms on the performance of the mouse here and wait till more OCN peeps get their hands on the mouse first.

On a side note, the shape and weight is pretty good. There were many concerns regarding the placement of the sniper button but it hasn't been bothering me so far, though I have smallish hands (19cm from the tip of my middle finger to edge of palm). The cable is a bit too thick and stiff for my liking though.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Redacted



Here is mine and I was just swiping left to right.

Here are the 800cpi/500Hz measurements:





Can someone explain these 1000Hz measurements otherwise I'm the Flash.



and this:



Here I am moving my mouse in a horizontal "8" shape. What the heck is happening?



Here I was just moving my mouse up and down:



Edit: Two different computers same results. Mouse pad used: Overclockers UK 3XL



Update 1: Unable to replicate tracking problems.

Update 2: Problem is back. See this post.


----------



## jerronchua55

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Here is mine and I was just swiping left to right.
> 
> Here are the 800cpi/500Hz measurements:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain these 1000Hz measurements otherwise I'm the Flash.
> 
> 
> 
> and this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here I am moving my mouse in a horizontal "8" shape. What the heck is happening?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here I was just moving my mouse up and down:






Try moving your mouse in large circles quickly. My G402 spazzes out (malfunctions) easily when doing this, regardless at 400 or 800cpi.

I guess if I can make the mouse malfunction without reaching the limits of how fast my arm can move, the mouse is probably malfuctioning at ~3m/s.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Redacted



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> 
> Try moving your mouse in large circles quickly. My G402 spazzes out (malfunctions) easily when doing this, regardless at 400 or 800cpi.
> 
> I guess if I can make the mouse malfunction without reaching the limits of how fast my arm can move, the mouse is probably malfuctioning at ~3m/s.


The mouse appears to track horizontally fine. However, it's all over the place when moved vertically as my results show when I move my mouse in a figure 8 or up and down. Logitech's robot arm swings in a circle which is quite different to a figure 8 motion or up and down. Perhaps, they never noticed this behaviour in their sensors?

*I'm not going to to come to any conclusions yet because there may be other factors.*

Here is the results of moving the mouse in an arc like a rainbow:





For reference, here is a Razer Naga 2014 (800cpi/500hz/Overclockers UK 3XL) being moved up and down:



Razer Naga 2014 (800cpi/500hz/Overclockers UK 3XL) being moved in a "horizontal 8":





Update 1: I unplugged and replugged in the mouse. I'm unable to replicate the tracking problems.

Update 2: Problem is back. See this post.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> 
> Try moving your mouse in large circles quickly. My G402 spazzes out (malfunctions) easily when doing this, regardless at 400 or 800cpi.
> 
> I guess if I can make the mouse malfunction without reaching the limits of how fast my arm can move, the mouse is probably malfuctioning at ~3m/s.


Hmmm....

I did as you said and here are the results (G402 400cpi/500hz/Overclockers UK 3XL):



Starts our very good and then suddenly goes to hell.

I then did it again at 800cpi/500hz. Everything tracked well.



I then did it again at 800cpi/500hz trying to move even faster. Things didn't go so well.





Something is clearly wrong.

Here I deliberately tried to stay below 2.7m/s and it tracks beautifully.



So the problem is relating to either the firmware and/or the accelerometer. It may need a lesson in how to count.


----------



## Derp

Can you confirm this on your sample Ino?


----------



## Dreyka

It's possible this may be expected behaviour, the accelerometer isn't malfunctioning and Logitech viewed this as acceptable because horizontal swipes, where the accelerometer does well, were the only expected use case. Doing fast circles isn't exactly usual in in-game movement.

This is your usual horizontal swipe and it performs fine:



I wish I had a G502 to see how that compares. I no longer have a mouse with a PMW-3310 sensor so I can't see how that compares either.

What I can say is that the PLN2033 in the Razer Naga 2014 did a far better job in fast circles than the AM010+accelerometer system.


----------



## Axaion

inb4 "you're using it wrong"


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> It's possible this may be expected behaviour, the accelerometer isn't malfunctioning and Logitech viewed this as acceptable because horizontal swipes, where the accelerometer does well, were the only expected use case. Doing fast circles isn't exactly usual in in-game movement.
> 
> This is your usual horizontal swipe and it performs fine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had a G502 to see how that compares. I no longer have a mouse with a PMW-3310 sensor so I can't see how that compares either.
> 
> What I can say is that the PLN2033 in the Razer Naga 2014 did a far better job in fast circles than the AM010+accelerometer system.


how about like just an arc? fast, large circles might be uncommon in regular gameplay, but fast arcs aren't.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> how about like just an arc? fast, large circles might be uncommon in regular gameplay, but fast arcs aren't.


Here is a fast arc:



You can see that at maximum horizontal speed of 4m/s I'm only moving the mouse 1m/s vertically.


----------



## Dreyka

This rubber cable is starting to drive me crazy. Never really wanted a wireless mouse until now.

I wonder if the AM010 + accelerometer setup uses little power. May end up being used in wireless mice as well like the G602.


----------



## MadGear

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Hmmm....
> 
> I did as you said and here are the results (G402 400cpi/500hz/Overclockers UK 3XL):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starts our very good and then suddenly goes to hell.
> 
> [...]


So basically with your first circles your movements were within the threshold were the accelerometer is inactive and as soon as it was required to do the tracking ... it lost track? To me it seems more likely that the accelerometer didn't activate at all and this is simply the sensor itself malfunctioning. Wouldn't be surprised if this would look the same for a g100s.
Maybe they need to lower the threshold before the accelerometer is supposed to kick in. But whatever, hope they get this fixed.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Hmmm....
> 
> I did as you said and here are the results (G402 400cpi/500hz/Overclockers UK 3XL):
> 
> Starts our very good and then suddenly goes to hell.
> 
> I then did it again at 800cpi/500hz. Everything tracked well.
> 
> I then did it again at 800cpi/500hz trying to move even faster. Things didn't go so well.
> 
> Something is clearly wrong.
> 
> Here I deliberately tried to stay below 2.7m/s and it tracks beautifully.
> 
> So the problem is relating to either the firmware and/or the accelerometer. It may need a lesson in how to count.


I am not surprised. I was mentioning this situation to @Axaion before anyone else got a G402.

Here is a post vaguely mentioning the transitioning.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/40_20#post_22641853

This is why an accelerometer isn't relied on by other products, it's not suitable. In this case it is only good for swiping at high speeds. That is why the 3366 is a better sensor. Also why I asked CPate about tracking quality on the Shiden-Kai.

It would have been nice if the AM010 could do 3.5m/s. I wouldn't need an accelerometer if it could do at least that.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I am not surprised. I was mentioning this situation to @Axaion before anyone else got a G402.
> 
> Here is a post vaguely mentioning the transitioning.
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/40_20#post_22641853
> 
> This is why an accelerometer isn't relied on by other products, it's not suitable. In this case it is only good for swiping at high speeds. That is why the 3366 is a better sensor. Also why I asked CPate about tracking quality on the Shiden-Kai.
> 
> It would have been nice if the AM010 could do 3.5m/s. I wouldn't need an accelerometer if it could do at least that.


Interesting read, definate try this out once I got my hands on this


----------



## Dreyka

If the PMW-3366 has variable smoothing based upon CPI value then I'm failing to see what advantage this AM010 + accelerometer "fusion" setup offers. Perhaps, this setup uses less power and can therefore be incorporated into wireless mice?

I would be grateful if someone with a G502 could use mouse tester (found here with explanation on how to use here) and show some X/Y velocity graphs of them moving in circles quickly. The PLN2033 sensor can do this well as shown by my Razer Naga 2014 measurements.


----------



## Ino.

Will try to replicate the issue on Monday, can't do earlier.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> If the PMW-3366 has variable smoothing based upon CPI value then I'm failing to see what advantage this AM010 + accelerometer "fusion" setup offers.


it's cheaper for logitech obviously.


----------



## Dreyka

Edit.


----------



## bigjw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> Just picked it up at my local retailer, the fusion engine doesn't seem to be working on my unit... With it turned on or off, I'm still getting a max tracking speed of 2.6-2.9m/s (400cpi,500hz) before the mouse malfuctions. Already running on the latest firmware according to LGS.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT:* Played around with other settings, this is at 400cpi,1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 400cpi, 250hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi, 250hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 1600cpi, 1000hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 1600cpi, 500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really pleased with what I'm seeing given I game on 400cpi, 500hz, and also the fact that Logitech did not deliver what they promised... The fusion engine seems to be picky with cpi settings, that's something Logitech needs to address ASAP or *I'm afraid this is a huge marketing scam by Logitech; their fusion engine might have only been programmed to work on a few settings.*


I've been using the g402 for about a week now, and the higher malfunction speed is very clear coming from a g400. Something on your end is faulty because I haven't been able to make it consistently malfunction using low sensitivity.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bigjw*
> 
> I've been using the g402 for about a week now, and the higher malfunction speed is very clear coming from a g400. Something on your end is faulty because I haven't been able to make it consistently malfunction using low sensitivity.


Must be one pretty faulty G400 if you managed to make it *Malfunction* on speed alone


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Must be one pretty faulty G400 if you managed to make it *Malfunction* on speed alone


He probably used it at 3600 CPI.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> He probably used it at 3600 CPI.


Hopefully, i couldent really make that thing malfunction, but i only used it on 400/800 CPI, didnt test is much because of hover buttons though, had it for .. maybe two hours

If he aint using it on some broken CPI step, he should get a refund, cause its clearly broken in that case


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bigjw*
> 
> I've been using the g402 for about a week now, and the higher malfunction speed is very clear coming from a g400. Something on your end is faulty because I haven't been able to make it consistently malfunction using low sensitivity.


Where did you gets yours? How are people getting them so early? I ordered from Logitech's website the night it was announced and mine hasn't shipped yet.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> Where did you gets yours? How are people getting them so early? I ordered from Logitech's website the night it was announced and mine hasn't shipped yet.


It's been out in south east Asia and Australia for a while now.


----------



## jerronchua55

Seems like I might have found out the cause of the problem; the accelerometer works as it should on the x-axis (mouse tracks to 3.5-4m/s without malfunctioning), however on a y-velocity to time graph, this is where it gets interesting:

G402 @ 400cpi/500hz:



800cpi/500hz:



Compared to a Zowie FK1 @ 400cpi/500hz:



800cpi/500hz:



Conclusion maybe? *The accelerometer most probably wasn't programmed to work on the y-axis.*

While it is somewhat true that you wouldn't move your mouse as much and as fast on the y-axis compared to the x-axis, IMO the "fusion engine" didn't live up to it's hype. I was expecting it to perform better given the rather steep price... For now as it stands, the G402's sensor is no different from a G100s apart from the minor boost in tracking speeds on the x-axis.

Is it worth the extra price premium over the G100s? Maybe. I found myself enjoying the shape and the weight after a few hours of competitive play on CS:GO. The AM010 sensor, though having a low max tracking speed, I found it to be snappier than the PMW3310.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Must be one pretty faulty G400 if you managed to make it *Malfunction* on speed alone


I do that easily, even at 800 DPI.

Some games are faster than others....


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> I do that easily, even at 800 DPI.
> 
> Some games are faster than others....


Doesn't G400 have like 4,5 m/s PCS?


----------



## bigjw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Must be one pretty faulty G400 if you managed to make it *Malfunction* on speed alone


I'm fairly certain its not faulty, using low sens I can easily make it malfunction at 400dpi/500hz, but maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about.


----------



## popups

Sucks to be right....

They should have used a 3366 or their own version of a 3310.


----------



## Derp

"The world's fastest gaming mouse"*

* On the X axis. Kappa

But seriously, I hope Logitech can get this sorted with a fw flash. If it's permanent this would be pretty bad because as Popups mentioned above, they had other sensor only options that wouldn't suffer from this and still had tracking speeds higher than any human would need.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: jerronchua55



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> Seems like I might have found out the cause of the problem; the accelerometer works as it should on the x-axis (mouse tracks to 3.5-4m/s without malfunctioning), however on a y-velocity to time graph, this is where it gets interesting:
> 
> G402 @ 400cpi/500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi/500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to a Zowie FK1 @ 400cpi/500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> 800cpi/500hz:
> 
> 
> 
> Conclusion maybe? *The accelerometer most probably wasn't programmed to work on the y-axis.*
> 
> While it is somewhat true that you wouldn't move your mouse as much and as fast on the y-axis compared to the x-axis, IMO the "fusion engine" didn't live up to it's hype. I was expecting it to perform better given the rather steep price... For now as it stands, the G402's sensor is no different from a G100s apart from the minor boost in tracking speeds on the x-axis.
> 
> Is it worth the extra price premium over the G100s? Maybe. I found myself enjoying the shape and the weight after a few hours of competitive play on CS:GO. The AM010 sensor, though having a low max tracking speed, I found it to be snappier than the PMW3310.






I really don't like this "Fusion Engine" approach. It may work 99% of the time but having your mouse stop tracking correctly in that other 1% of the circumstances is really bad. At least with the PMW-3310 and PMW-3366 we know the limitations and if you stay under than 5m/s speed (99.9% will) then it track very well. What I'm most concerned with is that is that I don't know what factors is causing the mouse to stop tracking correctly.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> I do that easily, even at 800 DPI.
> 
> Some games are faster than others....


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bigjw*
> 
> I'm fairly certain its not faulty, using low sens I can easily make it malfunction at 400dpi/500hz, but maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about.


If its not faulty then i must have gotten a cherry picked one, because i have no problems swiping near 5m/s

Oh well, was just a thought, probably a mousepad it does not like or something in your cases


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> If its not faulty then i must have gotten a cherry picked one, because i have no problems swiping near 5m/s
> 
> Oh well, was just a thought, probably a mousepad it does not like or something in your cases


This is off topic but Mousetester shows my G400 @ 800CPi @ 1000Hz malfunctions at around 4.2m/s on cloth pads. This is still more than I would ever need.


----------



## popups

Have you guys tested the mouse by doing diagonal swipes? Let's say while playing a FPS game you have to do a flick shot onto someone who is off to the right and is on top of a building.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> If its not faulty then i must have gotten a cherry picked one, because i have no problems swiping near 5m/s
> 
> Oh well, was just a thought, probably a mousepad it does not like or something in your cases


Considering that I have quite a plethora of mouse pads, I'm fairly confident that it is you that does not move fast enough to make it malfunction.
I'm gonna guess you play CS. If I played CS - or a similar, slow game - I'd probably never would hit malfunction speed myself.


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> Considering that I have quite a plethora of mouse pads, I'm fairly confident that it is you that does not move fast enough to make it malfunction.
> I'm gonna guess you play CS. If I played CS - or a similar, slow game - I'd probably never would hit malfunction speed myself.


But still, it got one of the highest tracking speed of all optical mice before 3310 and 3366 sensors.


----------



## Ino.

So I can make the mouse behave weird when doing the lying 8 infinity movement fast, but there are zero problems with normal left/right or diagonal movement. Even quick changes of direction don't cause troubles.

Quick Right to Left swipe:
http://imgur.com/vjons1c

Diagonal swipe
http://imgur.com/ImrJcOj

Infinity motion
http://imgur.com/1wceXaB

I also tried my G402 on 125, 500 and 1000 Hz on 400, 800, 1600 and 3200 CPI with the software, works without problems every time, see below.


Spoiler: Screencaps



http://imgur.com/X5QI2ur

http://imgur.com/ZLdONRT

http://imgur.com/99jWiGR

http://imgur.com/JCrTxqb

http://imgur.com/oiD06H6

http://imgur.com/ewO7eAm

http://imgur.com/gTZW7H5

http://imgur.com/Mjrr5oW

http://imgur.com/6zMnnom

http://imgur.com/7Cdq0UR

http://imgur.com/4jYYzp3

http://imgur.com/Ia1V16R


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> So I can make the mouse behave weird when doing the lying 8 infinity movement fast, but there are zero problems with normal left/right or diagonal movement. Even quick changes of direction don't cause troubles.
> 
> Quick Right to Left swipe:
> http://imgur.com/vjons1c
> 
> Diagonal swipe
> http://imgur.com/ImrJcOj
> 
> Infinity motion
> http://imgur.com/1wceXaB
> 
> I also tried my G402 on 125, 500 and 1000 Hz on 400, 800, 1600 and 3200 CPI with the software, works without problems every time, see below.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Screencaps
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/X5QI2ur
> 
> http://imgur.com/ZLdONRT
> 
> http://imgur.com/99jWiGR
> 
> http://imgur.com/JCrTxqb
> 
> http://imgur.com/oiD06H6
> 
> http://imgur.com/ewO7eAm
> 
> http://imgur.com/gTZW7H5
> 
> http://imgur.com/Mjrr5oW
> 
> http://imgur.com/6zMnnom
> 
> http://imgur.com/7Cdq0UR
> 
> http://imgur.com/4jYYzp3
> 
> http://imgur.com/Ia1V16R


Thanks.

Would like to se those values in mousetest


----------



## jerronchua55

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> So I can make the mouse behave weird when doing the lying 8 infinity movement fast, but there are zero problems with normal left/right or diagonal movement. Even quick changes of direction don't cause troubles.
> 
> Quick Right to Left swipe:
> http://imgur.com/vjons1c
> 
> Diagonal swipe
> http://imgur.com/ImrJcOj
> 
> Infinity motion
> http://imgur.com/1wceXaB
> 
> I also tried my G402 on 125, 500 and 1000 Hz on 400, 800, 1600 and 3200 CPI with the software, works without problems every time, see below.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Screencaps
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/X5QI2ur
> 
> http://imgur.com/ZLdONRT
> 
> http://imgur.com/99jWiGR
> 
> http://imgur.com/JCrTxqb
> 
> http://imgur.com/oiD06H6
> 
> http://imgur.com/ewO7eAm
> 
> http://imgur.com/gTZW7H5
> 
> http://imgur.com/Mjrr5oW
> 
> http://imgur.com/6zMnnom
> 
> http://imgur.com/7Cdq0UR
> 
> http://imgur.com/4jYYzp3
> 
> http://imgur.com/Ia1V16R


Could you try vertical swipes? (Y velocity vs. time graph) Thanks.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerronchua55*
> 
> Could you try vertical swipes? (Y velocity vs. time graph) Thanks.


Aaaaand there seems to be our culprit:

http://imgur.com/lIgMslc

This should be fixable via software, I hope.


----------



## MadGear

Thanks for the great work guys. Really interested to see if Logitech will be able to fix this and I sure hope they will. However until then I'm going pull my preorder on this.
Even if the chances of the mouse malfunctioning seem to be slim, I still don't feel like taking chances with a 60€ product.
With the issue you guys discovered I guess it is to be expected that i would run into problems with games like Quake live where swipes along the y-axis are a bit more frequent than other games like CS:GO where movement is primarily 2-dimensional.

But still, it seems a bit odd that they didn't identify this issue with their fancy robot arm. Seems like they only tested it for the x-axis


----------



## Nilizum

CPate should respond to us on those mouse tests, especially the Y-axis results.. These mousetest results are the main reason why people wanted a 3366 in the G402. So uhh Logitech, let's get an actual successor to the G400 lineage without a sniper button and a 3366 ya?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> CPate should respond to us on those mouse tests, especially the Y-axis results.. These mousetest results are the main reason why people wanted a 3366 in the G402. So uhh Logitech, let's get an actual successor to the G400 lineage without a sniper button and a 3366 ya?


He mentioned that he was on vacation in a post @ reddit. I don't think he is ignoring us.


----------



## treach

Well done logitech.... better call it x402, it was clear that this hybrid stuff cant work like a normal sensor


----------



## thuNDa

so rocketjumping at really low sens wouldn't work with this mouse.


----------



## dontspamme

gg, Logitech.

Back to my DA2013 I go...


----------



## popups

Tracking looks more sporadic during diagonal movements. I wonder how the 3366 looks doing the same movement.

I always find it funny how "testers" miss some of the most obvious things. I knew this would be an issue after hearing there was an accelerometer in the mouse. Most "testers" get their sample, play some games, then say it's fine. They don't really test a mouse with the intent of finding every flaw they can. That is why I don't trust "pro" players' opinions -- they don't have the time to sit around testing a mouse instead of practicing for matches.

*@Ino.*
I don't see how that is fixable considering it happens below 2m/s.


----------



## Nilizum

I talked to some Logitech people and they said they are aware of the Y-axis issue and the released batches shouldn't* have this issue. Released as in after the status is not pre-order.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I talked to some Logitech people and they said they are aware of the Y-axis issue and the released batches shouldn't* have this issue. Released as in after the status is not pre-order.


You mean don't buy the mouse right now? Cancel your pre orders.


----------



## L1nos

It would be very nice if someone from Logitech could verify that. Maybe they could tell us from which Product Number on this issue is being fixed. Just like the G400, where you could determine, if your Model has Angle Snapping or not.


----------



## Ino.

I've also talked to an engineer at Logitech, and they are aware of the issue, it will be fixed. The fusion engine was set up for actual gaming purpose in which you won't have prolonged high speeds (such as the infinity motion) which is why after the max time for fusion the tracking fails. There was also never a case where fast y-axis movement was needed.

Also as I've shown in one of the graphs there is no problem with stuff like rocket jumping, I made sure to test that extensively when I tried the mouse.

Logitech will eventually come out with a white paper explaining more about fusion engine in general and its limitations.


----------



## Axaion

* Must hold mouse correctly
* Must use the mouse in a specific way to not incur wrath of the gyroscope
* Failure to do so voids warranty
* If warranty broke, you must buy two liters of milk
* You may NOT use the milk for cereal
* Must not come in direct contact with glass, fiber, or any type of plastic
* Failure to use milk in the intended (tm) way incurs a fine of 4 liters of milk

Oh boy, the future is here!


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I've also talked to an engineer at Logitech, and they are aware of the issue, it will be fixed. The fusion engine was set up for actual gaming purpose in which you won't have prolonged high speeds (such as the infinity motion) which is why after the max time for fusion the tracking fails. There was also never a case where fast y-axis movement was needed.
> 
> Also as I've shown in one of the graphs there is no problem with stuff like rocket jumping, I made sure to test that extensively when I tried the mouse.
> 
> Logitech will eventually come out with a white paper explaining more about fusion engine in general and its limitations.


Uh oh







. Fixed with firmware or does this need a hardware change? Should I cancel my preorder with them till it's fixed?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> * Must hold mouse correctly
> * Must use the mouse in a specific way to not incur wrath of the gyroscope
> * Failure to do so voids warranty
> * If warranty broke, you must buy two liters of milk
> * You may NOT use the milk for cereal
> * Must not come in direct contact with glass, fiber, or any type of plastic
> * Failure to use milk in the intended (tm) way incurs a fine of 4 liters of milk
> 
> Oh boy, the future is here!


none of this is relevant to the issue, not even your one point that could be taken seriously

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> Uh oh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Fixed with firmware or does this need a hardware change? Should I cancel my preorder with them till it's fixed?


FW


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> FW


Thanks Ino, maybe this is why it's taking so long to get release the mouse. Hopefully it can be fixed without sacrificing performance in any way.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I've also talked to an engineer at Logitech, and they are aware of the issue, it will be fixed. The fusion engine was set up for actual gaming purpose in which you won't have prolonged high speeds (such as the infinity motion) which is why after the max time for fusion the tracking fails. There was also never a case where fast y-axis movement was needed.
> 
> Also as I've shown in one of the graphs there is no problem with stuff like rocket jumping, I made sure to test that extensively when I tried the mouse.
> 
> Logitech will eventually come out with a white paper explaining more about fusion engine in general and its limitations.


The fundamental question is why should we accept this hybrid approach instead of the PMW-3366. The condition being that the PMW-3366 can handle this kind of unlikely mouse movement whilst remaining more accurate within usual movements speeds <5m/s.

Perhaps, this approach is cheaper for Logitech but that is not the customers concern. Perhaps, this approaches uses less power and is therefore more viable for wireless mice but that is irrelevant for wired mice.


----------



## hza

Just because it's a cheaper mouse. I dislike the idea to compare it with cars, but you won't get a V12 engine when you buy BMW 3xx.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> none of this is relevant to the issue, not even your one point that could be taken seriously
> FW


I was thirsty.

And its a phun to the glorious apple "youre holding it wrong" with the antenna


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> Just because it's a cheaper mouse. I dislike the idea to compare it with cars, but you won't get a V12 engine when you buy BMW 3xx.


Mice aren't cars and they aren't even comparable.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> I was thirsty.
> 
> And its a phun to the glorious apple "youre holding it wrong" with the antenna


not really. The problem with the sensor isn't someone gaming and encountering the error through gaming. Its hey, lets see if we can make it malfunction, yep, managed it. Am i convinced that no one will ever get it to malfunction accidentally while gaming? Nope. But right now, i am not convinced it will malfunction accidentally while gaming either. I am definitely hesitant to recommend this mouse to others or if they were to use this system on a lighter mouse, to use such i system myself, at least until we find out more information.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> not really. The problem with the sensor isn't someone gaming and encountering the error through gaming. Its hey, lets see if we can make it malfunction, yep, managed it. Am i convinced that no one will ever get it to malfunction accidentally while gaming? Nope. But right now, i am not convinced it will malfunction accidentally while gaming either. I am definitely hesitant to recommend this mouse to others or if they were to use this system on a lighter mouse, to use such i system myself, at least until we find out more information.


As it is right now, you have to use it in a specific way, to not get the issue, how is that even anywhere good for anyone?

Hopefully logitech fixes this, but just that it even went trough testing makes me very skeptical, as they do have the equipment and everything to make a simple 8 for a few minutes to test.

Am i interested in the mouse?, well i was, untill i saw all the faults, was hoping it would be a less gimmicky G502, but alas, it seems not.


----------



## MadGear

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> The fundamental question is why should we accept this hybrid approach instead of the PMW-3366. The condition being that the PMW-3366 can handle this kind of unlikely mouse movement whilst remaining more accurate within usual movements speeds <5m/s.
> 
> Perhaps, this approach is cheaper for Logitech but that is not the customers concern. Perhaps, this approaches uses less power and is therefore more viable for wireless mice but that is irrelevant for wired mice.


Well speaking for myself, i would easily accept this solution if it would work as well as they promised. Obviously if the solution actually is cheaper for Logitech then they should prices this accordingly. But in some way you are right, if this mouse had the 3366 instead, it would be a no brainer for me because it eliminates many of the problems i had with the g502.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> As it is right now, you have to use it in a specific way, to not get the issue, how is that even anywhere good for anyone?
> 
> Hopefully logitech fixes this, but just that it even went trough testing makes me very skeptical, as they do have the equipment and everything to make a simple 8 for a few minutes to test.
> 
> Am i interested in the mouse?, well i was, untill i saw all the faults, was hoping it would be a less gimmicky G502, but alas, it seems not.


As of right now, no one has had the device malfunction without intentionally trying to make the device malfunction. There is a significant different between when holding a phone how you would normally hold a phone, it not working; and being able to hold a phone in a way where it wouldn't work. No one has reported using the g402 how they would use a mouse while gaming and having it malfunction. If it will never accidentally malfunction, how is there an issue? There isn't. Has it been proven that it will never accidentally malfunction? No. That is the legitimate concern. The concern that while not trying to use the mouse i can make the counts malfunction is not legitimate. I can make any mouse malfunction, just lift it an inch of the mouspad, now every mouse is broken. How is moving the mouse in ways i would never normally move it to get it to malfunciton any different then lifting the mouse an inch off the pad to get it to malfunction?


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Mice aren't cars and they aren't even comparable.


Believe what you want, outcome is the same. No 3366 in a G402 for you.


----------



## trhead

Nice quality mouse but that stiff cable needs to go. Going back to DA2013.


----------



## Nilizum

DA2013 with that terrible smoothing... Man, mad props for you to coping with that crap LOL. Inb4 it's just speculation, no... it isn't.


----------



## trhead

I know. G402 sensor feels better and more responsive but I just can't deal with this cable and potato shape. Oh well.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> DA2013 with that terrible smoothing... Man, mad props for you to coping with that crap LOL. Inb4 it's just speculation, no... it isn't.


A bit sidetracking here but I wished someone tested this: Could be related to Synapse.

Abyssus 2014 without Synapse: Good but stuck at 1800 dpi
Abyssus 2014 with Synapse: Customization but MASSIVE smoothing (caused by software dpi recalculation??)

Might be a similar case on the DA 2013.

About this Fusion engine: Might be interesting imo, but seems like there are still some quirks to be ironed out (as expected imo) considering it's new. I'm actually hoping they plan to include this in future iterations of their G100S (whatever the next version of that is).


----------



## doomleika

Rafalog has just made an comparison with G502

http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.tw/2014/08/logitech-g502-vs-g402-tracking.html

Fairly impressive, but you can see problem when fusion engine kicks in.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know. G402 sensor feels better and more responsive but I just can't deal with this cable and potato shape. Oh well.


Wait, did you try the new one? I think it is slightly different, just SLIGHTLY, but perhaps it might not feel as potato like. I think with all the Fusion Engine issues ironed out it will be a pretty solid mouse. I mean, I don't have ginormous hands, and it's still an eight button mouse (and 3 grams lighter) so I think I will like the G402 a lot coming from an old time MX518.


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Wait, did you try the new one? I think it is slightly different, just SLIGHTLY, but perhaps it might not feel as potato like. I think with all the Fusion Engine issues ironed out it will be a pretty solid mouse. I mean, I don't have ginormous hands, and it's still an eight button mouse (and 3 grams lighter) so I think I will like the G402 a lot coming from an old time MX518.


Yes I got the mouse today (G402). Shape is slightly different and better than g400, especially that right side, but this shape is just not for me. Great mouse tho.

So yeah if you liked 518,g400 get this one for sure.


----------



## fuzzybass

So... the fusion engine... is that just another feature they added just to make the consumers think it's a feature they want?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fuzzybass*
> 
> So... the fusion engine... is that just another feature they added just to make the consumers think it's a feature they want?


Yes and no.

If Logitech had chosen a 3310 or a 3366 that they have access to then a fusion engine would be 100% useless because those sensors track at high speeds by themselves. But since they chose a sensor with a rather low tracking speed the fusion engine is very much needed.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> As of right now, no one has had the device malfunction without intentionally trying to make the device malfunction. There is a significant different between when holding a phone how you would normally hold a phone, it not working; and being able to hold a phone in a way where it wouldn't work. No one has reported using the g402 how they would use a mouse while gaming and having it malfunction. If it will never accidentally malfunction, how is there an issue? There isn't. Has it been proven that it will never accidentally malfunction? No. That is the legitimate concern. The concern that while not trying to use the mouse i can make the counts malfunction is not legitimate. I can make any mouse malfunction, just lift it an inch of the mouspad, now every mouse is broken. How is moving the mouse in ways i would never normally move it to get it to malfunciton any different then lifting the mouse an inch off the pad to get it to malfunction?


wall of text *crits* 9001

Its really just a matter of time in that regard, or people having an issue with the mouse but unable to tell for sure whats going on.
I never said it didnt work, i just said it would only work if used in a specific way, or not used in a specific way

Putting it up against lifting the mouse, which -should- stop tracking, vs tracking like it should while on the surface is two completely unrelated things, to even further bastardize the phun i made in your mind, its like putting the phone in a 10 inch thick lead casing and going "omagawd, it wont recieve calls"
but seeing as you put the thing there yourself, its not like thats to blame, unlike if you have to make a swift movement in a game a few times which might not happen often, but can happen - and get told "nope, not doing that sir."

The legitimate concern is how this even made it though testing, and into retail it being the fastest FPS mouse ever made (tm)

But yeah, hopefully for those that bought it, there will be a fix in less than a week.


----------



## SuDDi

Does anyone know if it will be possible to set separate DPI values for the X and Y axis on the G402? I believe this functionality was missing on the 502.


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Rafalog has just made an comparison with G502
> 
> http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.tw/2014/08/logitech-g502-vs-g402-tracking.html
> 
> Fairly impressive, but you can see problem when fusion engine kicks in.


Did he stick the wheel from the G500 into the 502?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SuDDi*
> 
> Does anyone know if it will be possible to set separate DPI values for the X and Y axis on the G402? I believe this functionality was missing on the 502.


AFAIK, no.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> wall of text *crits* 9001
> 
> Its really just a matter of time in that regard, or people having an issue with the mouse but unable to tell for sure whats going on.
> I never said it didnt work, i just said it would only work if used in a specific way, or not used in a specific way
> 
> Putting it up against lifting the mouse, which -should- stop tracking, vs tracking like it should while on the surface is two completely unrelated things, to even further bastardize the phun i made in your mind, its like putting the phone in a 10 inch thick lead casing and going "omagawd, it wont recieve calls"
> but seeing as you put the thing there yourself, its not like thats to blame, unlike if you have to make a swift movement in a game a few times which might not happen often, but can happen - and get told "nope, not doing that sir."
> 
> The legitimate concern is how this even made it though testing, and into retail it being the fastest FPS mouse ever made (tm)
> 
> But yeah, hopefully for those that bought it, there will be a fix in less than a week.


It made it through testing because none of this ever occured during normal gameplay use. There is no gameplay scenario where any of this would be an issue that I can think of.
When I was testing the mouse I didn't even know about the accelerometer and just tested like I would with any other mouse. No issues then. Of course if you read the releases so far it's clear that the accelerometer was not designed to work perpetuously, so you can come up with ways to make that happen.

The results so far do not make me not recommend the G402, because it never once failed my while actually playing games with it. It might be a problem if you're playing some flight/space game that allows for longer up/down motions, but in FPS you stop then looking straight up/down anyway.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It made it through testing because none of this ever occured during normal gameplay use. There is no gameplay scenario where any of this would be an issue that I can think of.
> When I was testing the mouse I didn't even know about the accelerometer and just tested like I would with any other mouse. No issues then. Of course if you read the releases so far it's clear that the accelerometer was not designed to work perpetuously, so you can come up with ways to make that happen.
> 
> The results so far do not make me not recommend the G402, because it never once failed my while actually playing games with it. It might be a problem if you're playing some flight/space game that allows for longer up/down motions, but in FPS you stop then looking straight up/down anyway.


Seeing as im going to play the Space fighter game Ever /valkyrie or what its called, it would be an issue for me

So the mouse is 100% designed for pure fps now?, i thought it was for everyone with the sniper buttons and such


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Seeing as im going to play the Space fighter game Ever /valkyrie or what its called, it would be an issue for me
> 
> So the mouse is 100% designed for pure fps now?, i thought it was for everyone with the sniper buttons and such


You can't know if it's an issue for you without having the mouse. If it still tracks well for even a split second, you'll simply run out of mousepad in any direction before it flips out, so it might be fine.

I started practicing QuakeWorld trickjumps (with rocket jumps done manually instead of using lame scripts) to test this crap thoroughly when the mouse gets shipped.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Seeing as im going to play the Space fighter game Ever /valkyrie or what its called, it would be an issue for me
> 
> So the mouse is 100% designed for pure fps now?, i thought it was for everyone with the sniper buttons and such


To make it malfunction on the y-axis I had to use the mouse on my desk, otherwise I would not be fast enough on the mousepad space.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Mice aren't cars and they aren't even comparable.


Did you not watch Logitechs's G402 video? "It's like a sports car."


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Did you not watch Logitechs's G402 video? "It's like a sports car."


 So it will accelerate off into the distance?


----------



## discoprince

i dont give a hoot about y axis perfect control speed,*i loved the G100s sensor* prior to the 3090 smoothing hype and the 3310 sensor being released. on top of that it never malfunctioned on me.
i originally thought that the G502 sensor was just an improved G100s sensor (which it turned out not to be) and got rid of that mess of a mouse with its terrible scroll wheel and awful weight.

so here you go logitech, take my money and when your ready you can have more of my money when you make the new G100s.

pls also do whatever you can so these hipster niche mouse nerds stop crying, no one else is listening.

*also Ino if you wouldnt mind id like to see more side by sides and comparison pics with your G400.*


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> pls also do whatever you can so these hipster niche mouse nerds stop crying, no one else is listening.


Says someone with a Cloud9 pic... Hope that isn't for their GO team.


----------



## Arxeal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> i dont give a hoot about y axis perfect control speed,*i loved the G100s sensor* prior to the 3090 smoothing hype and the 3310 sensor being released. on top of that it never malfunctioned on me.
> i originally thought that the G502 sensor was just an improved G100s sensor (which it turned out not to be) and got rid of that mess of a mouse with its terrible scroll wheel and awful weight.
> 
> so here you go logitech, take my money and when your ready you can have more of my money when you make the new G100s.
> 
> pls also do whatever you can so these hipster niche mouse nerds stop crying, no one else is listening.
> 
> *also Ino if you wouldnt mind id like to see more side by sides and comparison pics with your G400.*


Just be curious, why do you think g502 sensor isn't better than g100s sensor?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Says someone with a Cloud9 pic... Hope that isn't for their GO team.


whats your favorite mouse again?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arxeal*
> 
> Just be curious, why do you think g502 sensor isn't better than g100s sensor?


where did i say it wasnt? i said i liked the g100s sensor, thats it. i never said it was superior to the 3366, because its not.


----------



## popups

I wonder if Cloud 9's GO team will be forced to use the G402 or G100S for the 3rd $250,000 tournament. GG


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I wonder if Cloud 9's GO team will be forced to use the G402 or G100S for the 3rd $250,000 tournament. GG


Hiko said on his stream that he is using the G400s now.


----------



## detto87

Didn't he use the EC1 or FK1?
Watched him 1-2 weeks ago on his stream.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Didn't he use the EC1 or FK1?
> Watched him 1-2 weeks ago on his stream.


They are contracted to use Logitech gear. At home is a different story. Meaning they will be using a lot of Logitech stuff at LAN events. I know players that use their favorite gear at home and their sponsors products at events.

I think it sucks for Jordan because Logitech does not have a product that is very similar to a Xai.


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Didn't he use the EC1 or FK1?
> Watched him 1-2 weeks ago on his stream.


He have been using FK/FK1 or DA 4G lately, when he wasn't forced to use sponsor gear.


----------



## TriviumKM

I believe i heard Hiko, Shroud, and Nothing say they will be using their current mice for Cologne, then switch to Logitech after. Something about not having enough time to adjust to a new mouse before the tournament.

Hopefully now that Logitech is sponsoring a team they'll consider competitive players' needs as well as casuals.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> I believe i heard Hiko, Shroud, and Nothing say they will be using their current mice for Cologne, then switch to Logitech after. Something about not having enough time to adjust to a new mouse before the tournament.
> 
> Hopefully now that Logitech is sponsoring a team they'll consider competitive players' needs as well as casuals.


I asked Jordan -- he didn't answer. That might be a touchy subject. I wouldn't be surprised they don't use any Logitech mice because their new offerings are not something those players want / could use effectively. So they would use Logitech keyboards, headsets, etc, at the event.

I am glad to see Logitech supporting teams like SteelSeries and Razer do. However, their new product strategy/design contradicts that sentiment. Imagine if they were to make 3366 mice similar to the shape of the Intellimouse Optical/Sensei/FK/AM/Wheel Mouse Optical and the intellimouse Explorer 3 for a Pro series line instead of the current spaceships for casual gamers!


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I am glad to see Logitech supporting teams like SteelSeries and Razer do. However, their new product strategy/design contradicts that sentiment.


I absolutely agree.
Quote:


> Imagine if they were to make 3366 mice similar to the shape of the Intellimouse Optical/Sensei/FK/AM/Wheel Mouse Optical and the intellimouse Explorer 3 for a Pro series line instead of the current spaceships for casual gamers!


Why they aren't doing _exactly_ that is beyond me.


----------



## IamInsane

I don't think it will make any difference for Logitech's future releases. Logitech didn't chose to support a specific CS team it just happens to be a cloud9 sponsor like HyperX. So players have free gears and in some case players are more or less obligated to use the specified gear, and in exchange Logitech gets free ads. And by the way, Shroud used a Sensei RAW for a very long time and even a Sensei wireless for a little bit. And Nothing is using a Xai so obviously some pro players don't care about perfect sensors.


----------



## TriviumKM

I can understand what you're saying, but at least in Shroud and Nothings case, they said they used those mice due to their shape. Shroud was using the Rival and then the FK1 recently, which is what i believe he said he'll be using as Cologne (he said the sensor felt better then every other mouse he's used so far on stream, but that he still liked the Sensei RAW shape the best).

Logitech doesn't have anything comparable shape wise. The closest is the G100s which has lower PCS than both their previous mice if im not mistaken (Sensei / Xai).


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> I can understand what you're saying, but at least in Shroud and Nothings case, they said they used those mice due to their shape. Shroud was using the Rival and then the FK1 recently, which is what i believe he said he'll be using as Cologne (he said the sensor felt better then every other mouse he's used so far on stream, but that he still liked the Sensei RAW shape the best).
> 
> Logitech doesn't have anything comparable shape wise. The closest is the G100s which has lower PCS than both their previous mice if im not mistaken (Sensei / Xai).


But they also never had any of those shapes in the past. The Logitech mice were always completely different feel compared to the Microsoft mice where the Steelseries come from. It was like two different camps from the start.

I always hated the Microsoft shapes in general... couldn't lift them without feeling like there's a cramp in the hand developing because of the mouse. The Logitech had sides going like \__/ towards the table, Microsoft were /___\ and I couldn't get leverage when repositioning. Even on that MX500 which was the largest and perhaps intended for some sort of palm grip, you could grip it for lifting with the ring finger on the right side just like on the small mice, while the IME shape totally sabotaged that.


----------



## popups

Point of the matter is the fact these pro players do not want to use a Logitech mouse for something important. The sensor not being the main reason... When a pro FPS player doesn't want to use your new and awesome sniper button mouse, that is an issue. Really hurts the marketing, in my opinion.

Three people in iBuyPower (4 if you count former iBP player Adren) choose to use the FK/1. The others use a DeathAdder. They can use whatever they want...


----------



## IamInsane

Who cares if they have to use Logitech mice or not or if they don't like Logitech gear. I'm pretty sure they knew what they signed up for, and they have a better deal now than when they where on Complexity so I don't think they're gonna complain. And they're not gonna change their mouse just prior to a big event. It makes perfect sense. Tesoro is a sponsor of Virtus.Pro but I never saw them use this gear, it's just written on their jersey shirt. And a lot of teams can use whatever they want. On the other hand Titan seems more or less forced to use Razer products. Different teams, different sponsors, different contracts. Anyway it shouldn't matter what pro players are using, half of them don't even know what sensor is in their mouse.


----------



## popups

Contracts with hardware companies such as Razer and SteelSeries require you to use their products. Some times small team contracts are for a few events, other contracts are until you leave the team.

When the Rival came out most of NiP switched to it before an event. Xizt didn't do nearly as well, so he switched back to the Ikari. Fifflaren switched to the Kana v2. I assume they were asked to market/use the Rival during the initial launch period.

I think Virtus had Tesoro as a sponsor for some events. They had to use their keyboards. At least I vaguely remember seeing Taz... Though a lot of their stuff was/is Zowie. They have different things going on throughout the year. I should ask what their current situation is...

What a pro FPS player uses matters a bit. A lot of people in Twitch streams ask about the products they use and ask for their opinions.

It would be hard for C9's GO team to market something they don't like. Considering that the G400 is being replaced by the G402 and that the G100S is a small mouse with no side buttons.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What a pro FPS player uses matters a bit. A lot of people in Twitch streams ask about the products they use and ask for their opinions.
> .


I don't think they are allowed to say anything bad on the product when they are on contract.

Pro's opinion on products are pretty useless unless they are not bound to any of company.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> I don't think they are allowed to say anything bad on the product when they are on contract.
> 
> Pro's opinion on products are pretty useless unless they are not bound to any of company.


There is no point stepping on your sponsors toes. That would be suicidal. That is why the players didn't answer certain questions...


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It would be hard for C9's GO team to market something they don't like. Considering that the G400 is being replaced by the G402 and that the G100S is a small mouse with no side buttons.


Well, if anyone used and liked the G400 they would be very satisfied with the G402.
Of course if someone wants an ambi shape Logitech doesn't offer much for that right now.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Well, if anyone used and liked the G400 they would be very satisfied with the G402.
> Of course if someone wants an ambi shape Logitech doesn't offer much for that right now.


One can hope g302...

One of the interview said they have scraped a mouse due to negative feedback by pros, I think that might be g302.

Just...don't put too much hope on sensor i think, G402- prob uses all AM010 sensor.


----------



## doomleika

Finally got my hands on this beast. here's test for Y-axis malfunction problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Rwn4J5UJE


----------



## Nilizum

Damn! Where did you get it?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Damn! Where did you get it?


First batch of preorder in our local shop has released.


----------



## Nilizum

Damn so good man! Here in US they are so slow!


----------



## Derp

The Fk1 was late and still can't be purchased at Amazon. The G402 is already available elsewhere. The Alcor will never even be sold here.

Nobody likes Murica.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> The Fk1 was late and still can't be purchased at Amazon. The G402 is already available elsewhere. The Alcor will never even be sold here.
> 
> Nobody likes Murica.


You know what's funny, when I talk to the Logitech people, they keep emphasizing that IT IS MANUFACTURED IN US... Which begs the question... Then why not release it at its own country of making before other countries? -.-


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> You know what's funny, when I talk to the Logitech people, they keep emphasizing that IT IS MANUFACTURED IN US... Which begs the question... Then why not release it at its own country of making before other countries? -.-


Manufactured? I thought designed in the US/EU, but manufactured? Never heard anyone from Logi say that.


----------



## Atavax

The g502 was released in the US very early... Maybe it bombed and they are trying a different release strategy for the g402...


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Manufactured? I thought designed in the US/EU, but manufactured? Never heard anyone from Logi say that.


Yea I knew someone was gonna point that out. They say "make"/"made" (in US) which is ambiguous. Usually I think it's made in China or something. IIRC one of the guys said they had the factories in US. This was a while back when I asked them why it was out in SEA before, and then they gave their multitude of excuses, and this was one of them--the others being falling of a truck or black market... -.-


----------



## metal571

I should have my hands on a G402 in the coming days so we can further compare performance results and impressions.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Yea I knew someone was gonna point that out. They say "make"/"made" (in US) which is ambiguous. Usually I think it's made in China or something. IIRC one of the guys said they had the factories in US. This was a while back when I asked them why it was out in SEA before, and then they gave their multitude of excuses, and this was one of them--the others being falling of a truck or black market... -.-


Definately made in china.

Or they might just use JP Omron.


----------



## popups

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oDFaoQne8

No love for the mice...


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oDFaoQne8
> 
> No love for the mice...


----------



## Longasc

Here is my personal review. Ino covered the engineering/technical part perfectly, so I will focus on my impressions.

Big surprise: The sensor is top notch. Pixel-precise placement and good feeling, no smoothing, very responsive.
I didn't expect that from a "pimped" G100s sensor. It's better than that of my G400 for sure!
In fact I think it is on par if not better than the PMW sensor in the Roccat Kone Pure Military or Steelseries Rival. They are very good and the difference in practice not there, I think the shape and form of the mice and other factors are more important for your choice.

Still, I only managed 92 IPS when trying hard. So the Accelerometer/Fusion Engine didn't ever kick in. The mouse tracks perfectly on my Goliathus Speed XXL and even on my frosted glass desk.
It also tells me that the AM sensor of the G100s was gimped by the 500Hz and heavily underrated. It turned out to be not only capable or respectable but to be absolutely fine.

-> But still, I really wonder, why not just use the Pixart Sensor of the G502 or the PMW3310H of the Avior, Rival or Pure Military?
The innovative technology of the Fusion is not really needed for these sensors. And it's definitely overkill for the sake of marketing, 400-500 IPS my ass. Old parts recycling and keeping the G502 unique in terms of sensor, eh?









The form of the G402 is somewhat improved, the buttons are a bit more silent and I like their click-feeling and sound better.

The mouse wheel is much more to my liking than that of the G502, the spring is a bit too strong and the click still a bit too loud. But I think its getting better with wear, my G400 wheel also needed a while for that. I hope the spring of the G402 also does.

Button placement is better, I like the shape of the dpi buttons better, but while the triangular shape of the side buttons and their pressure point are very precise to feel and control, I would prefer a flat or rounded button there nevertheless. A good thing is that there is more space for the thumb now!

The main mouse buttons are larger, the shape is slightly different. Please use the excellent preview function on the Logitech website to compare. They also don't click or clatter when you drop the mouse.

The sniper button is still there. It doesn't bother me but it is a button that shouldn't exist: It will only be perfectly placed for very few people, for the rest its hard to reach as they have to extend the thumb they are holding and controling the mouse with, for for those with very long hands irritating when they want to grip it and get on the button. So it's probably mostly there to make it an 8-button-mouse.

The shape of the right side of the mouse is still a problem. The rings help lifting and don't feel bad to me, I was a bit worried about that. But there is no space for the ring finger, if you place it there you have to go over a lip. That lip however is a bit too much on the front to help with lifting the mouse, the rings rills are much better for that. Especially low-sense pro-gamers that could take advantage of the excessive tracking speed of the mouse might like their ring finger on the right side instead of just controlling with thumb and pinky only.

That shape is still IMO just unfit for professionals. For me as a low-mid sense player its okay, but if you are not fine with the 3 middle fingers of your hands being over the buttons all the time without any real chance to place the ring finger comfortably on the right side, you shouldn't get this mouse.

The mouse weighs 106g, Logi says 108g. The loss of the weight flap is also a big plus for me.

This is my current mouse of choice, I prefer it over the Kone Military (too small for me) and my trusted good old G400 or the too heavy G502.

But it fails to deliver in a way nevertheless:

1. People wanted the G502 sensor in a mouse of another form factor. In my case a more classic form. Not a slightly improved G502 shape with another sensor that despite the really good job it does smells like G100s old parts recycling. The innovation of the fusion engine is not needed for modern sensors at all, it's damn superfluous.

2. Logitech also turned the classic no-nonsense shape of the G400/MX518 into an odd mix of Roccat, Razor and Mad Catz looks, losing identity in the process.

3. The shape/form of the mouse doesn't look good and it has ergonomic issues on the right side of the mouse, pinky and ringer finger placement.

4. Ironically I find this shape especially bad for competitive pro gamers, despite being quite large it doesn't offer much leeway for placement of the ring finger. For players capable of achieving very high movement and acceleration speeds thumb and pinky alone don't do it, you can put the ring finger on the right side but it is too cramped then and the hand is no longer over the mouse but rather covering its ass.

Don't get me wrong: I loved playing with this mouse over the last 4 days. It is my current mouse of choice, what I am using.

Nevertheless I would drop it for a G400 with onboard memory and the G502 sensor in a heartbeat. Ideally with a black coating and not that fugly dark blue / turquoise pattern of the S-series.
Or a slightly larger Kone Pure Military. The Kone XTD Optical unfortunately uses a ****ty sensor (I tried it, smooooooooooooooothing and swimming, horrible) and the shape isn't as good as that of the Pure Military.


----------



## detto87

Thanks! Especially the part about "the lip" was helpful.


----------



## duhizy

Idk why they decided to go with a sharper angle on the lip for the g502 and the g402. I didnt like it on the g400, but at least that one was rounded off so it didnt dig into your ring finger....


----------



## MadGear

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> [...]
> The shape of the right side of the mouse is still a problem. The rings help lifting and don't feel bad to me, I was a bit worried about that. But there is no space for the ring finger, if you place it there you have to go over a lip. That lip however is a bit too much on the front to help with lifting the mouse, the rings rills are much better for that. Especially low-sense pro-gamers that could take advantage of the excessive tracking speed of the mouse might like their ring finger on the right side instead of just controlling with thumb and pinky only.
> 
> [...]


Thanks for this, this pretty much kills my interest in this mouse. Currently playing with my old MX518 cursing like a sailor because of the stupid lip (it just doesn't work for me). Was hoping that the slight redesign might actually allow me to move the mouse with thumb and ringfinger but if thats not the case, i really do not want to get this mouse at all.


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> The shape of the right side of the mouse is still a problem. The rings help lifting and don't feel bad to me, I was a bit worried about that. But there is no space for the ring finger, if you place it there you have to go over a lip. That lip however is a bit too much on the front to help with lifting the mouse, the rings rills are much better for that. Especially low-sense pro-gamers that could take advantage of the excessive tracking speed of the mouse might like their ring finger on the right side instead of just controlling with thumb and pinky only.


For me personally, I'm really glad the 'lip' or 'hump' is gone. I can't think many people keep their ring finger on the top of the mouse (where the right mouse button exists) anymore. I've always thought that lip was a hold over from the days when logitech made 3 button mice and the mouseman designs, to aid transition from the older ball designs to the newer optical ones. I think the only reason the hump still existed on the 400 was because it was basically just a rebranded 518 with a newer sensor (which was a rebranded 510, which was a rebranded 500, etc. etc.). The design of the 500/510/518/g400 is going on 13 years completely unchanged.

It's a shame they don't put a really good sensor in the g600 and get it a bit lighter, because I would think people that really like to just have their thumb and pinky support the mouse would really like that shape.

Most people I know that liked the 512/400/400s shape, liked it because of the sensor and the price, they used it despite not liking the 'hump'. Or if they did like the hump they either started by using the old logitech ball mice and transitioned (which meant they were old like me) or they were a younger person that started on the 518 or similar design. But like anything with personal preference, I suppose it's all in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## Nivity

I keep my ringfinger on the far end of mouse2, always have and kinda always will with my fingertip/claw hybrid grip.

There is no way I can place the ringfinger on the right side on any mouse comfortable.

I have the same grip on every mouse









But I do have smaller hands (18-19cm) and use a hybrid claw/fingertip grip.


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oDFaoQne8
> 
> No love for the mice...


Watching the Dignitas vs C9 now. Hiko is using G100s and seangares is using G400s. Not sure about the others however.


----------



## Longasc

The MX518/G400 shape as the advantage that even if you hate the "lip", it's easier to ignore as it is rounded and larger. So you can rest your finger on it or roll over it, even if that is not exactly perfect.
The G402 has a pronounced edge of a smaller lip, not as wide but when you go over it, it indeed "bites" as it is not rounded.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> The MX518/G400 shape as the advantage that even if you hate the "lip", it's easier to ignore as it is rounded and larger. So you can rest your finger on it or roll over it, even if that is not exactly perfect.
> The G402 has a pronounced edge of a smaller lip, not as wide but when you go over it, it indeed "bites" as it is not rounded.


unless you hold it in a way you do not, in which case your ring finger will constantly press against the mx500/510/518/G400/G400S lip, resulting in me throwing it into road pavement untill it died (that thing is built sturdy though.)


----------



## Xanatos

The lip on the MX518 always bothered my ring finger.


----------



## daav1d

I think the overall shape is not that bad. But the right side lip makes it 100% unuseable. I get cramps in my ring and little finger.


----------



## Xanatos

the g500, i recall, didn't have a pronounced lip (but also had a laser instead of led).


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> I think the overall shape is not that bad. But the right side lip makes it 100% unuseable. I get cramps in my ring and little finger.


Same, the mouse would have been one of my favorites if it wasn't for that lip. I just could never get a proper grip on it.


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xanatos*
> 
> the g500, i recall, didn't have a pronounced lip (but also had a laser instead of led).


Yeah, crappy sensor, very heavy, extremely bad scroll wheel, awful coating... I don't like anything about the G500.


----------



## blitzio

Some initial impressions over the last day. I just picked this up from my local retailer here in Singapore. I'm a palm gripper with medium to large hands, and the sniper button doesn't get in the way (thumb just makes it behind). I also have no use for it anyway, so I've bound it to Right CTRL and set it to be Push To Talk on the Logitech Software for Teamspeak,etc and will use it accordingly. I've paired it with the Logitech G440 hard surface and it seems to go very well and smooth (I'm mostly into FPS). Overall pretty happy coming from an MX518 and more recently a Coolermaster Sentinel Advance (1st gen).


----------



## maxvons

Did logitech fix the tracking issue yet? Logitech in Norway has the mouse in stock now (no preorder). Would I be safe ordering one of those?


----------



## fellcbr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> Did logitech fix the tracking issue yet? Logitech in Norway has the mouse in stock now (no preorder). Would I be safe ordering one of those?


from what i see the fix is a firmware update, you won't have to change your mouse like the old G400..


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fellcbr1*
> 
> from what i see the fix is a firmware update, you won't have to change your mouse like the old G400..


But have they actually made the firmware that fixes the issue?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> But have they actually made the firmware that fixes the issue?


Not yet, at least didn't see any change on official driver


----------



## semantics

I'm sure it's not a simple fix, it's not like they can just turn off the gyro/accell input for y-direction movements as movements aren't purely x or y. It's probably a programming bug/oversight that will takes awhile to fix properly and make it into a release. Probably made it thought testing because they were too busy testing fps games that generally don't need high acceleration in y axis.


----------



## maxvons

Damn, guess I'm gonna order one anyway and hope they fix it some time. I can't see myself hitting the malfunction speed in the y-direction anyway in the games I play (mostly Dota 2, Diablo 3 and single player RPGs like Fallout NV, Skyrim etc)


----------



## semantics

I see it as a potential problem for higher speed RTS games like SC1 and SC2, and MOBA games which often have near vertical or some completely vertical lanes of movement. Don't see it as much of an issue for fallout or skyrim.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> I see it as a potential problem for higher speed RTS games like SC1 and SC2, and MOBA games which often have near vertical or some completely vertical lanes of movement. Don't see it as much of an issue for fallout or skyrim.


I can't imagine that. The pros did actually play with mice like Logitech Mini Optical. I also bought one as it was just 10 € back in the day, and I do like very small mice. It malfunctioned easily if you tried to use it in an FPS (even with pretty high sensitivity), but I don't remember it doing that when used to move a mouse pointer on the screen (like on the desktop or Starcraft).


----------



## justnvc

SO MUCH Y AXIS BS IN THIS THREAD


----------



## dontspamme

Is there anything at all about Lift-off-Distance in the drivers for this mouse?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> Is there anything at all about Lift-off-Distance in the drivers for this mouse?


no

surface caliberating is for g502 only


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justnvc*
> 
> SO MUCH Y AXIS BS IN THIS THREAD


Dude, you never reviewed the Eizo 120hz monitor =(


----------



## semantics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> I see it as a potential problem for higher speed RTS games like SC1 and SC2, and MOBA games which often have near vertical or some completely vertical lanes of movement. Don't see it as much of an issue for fallout or skyrim.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine that. The pros did actually play with mice like Logitech Mini Optical. I also bought one as it was just 10 € back in the day, and I do like very small mice. It malfunctioned easily if you tried to use it in an FPS (even with pretty high sensitivity), but I don't remember it doing that when used to move a mouse pointer on the screen (like on the desktop or Starcraft).
Click to expand...

Well if the mouse malfunctions in a RTS/MOBA you care alot less, tricks like magic boxing etc meant you didn't need pin point precision just good enough precision, FPS players care about the littlest iota of difference. So mouse mice for rts were chosen by sponsor or by comfort. Just saying if the mouse was going to malfunction that about that was the first thing that came to mind. Just saying a game type that has alot of y movement at quick speeds is rts/moba(which really is an simple rts). There are probably other like a flight game or something along those lines.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justnvc*
> 
> SO MUCH Y AXIS BS IN THIS THREAD


This!

The mouse did not ever malfunction under any actual usage scenario, this problem is completely made up.


----------



## semantics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *justnvc*
> 
> SO MUCH Y AXIS BS IN THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> 
> This!
> 
> The mouse did not ever malfunction under any actual usage scenario, this problem is completely made up.
Click to expand...

Being a stickler about unrealistic scenarios is what's it's all about when *****ing about sensor "perfection"


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> Being a stickler about unrealistic scenarios is what's it's all about when *****ing about sensor "perfection"


I was never about sensor perfection, only sensor performance, and as long as the performance is more than enough for actual gameplay then it's fine.

This is no issue that should keep anyone from getting the G402. Others like shape or buttons or whatever would be.


----------



## jologskyblues

I just got myself a G402 to compare against the G502. Here's an outline of my observations:

1. The 402 mouse cord is stiffer compared to the much more bendable cord on the 502 which is sleeved and has a ferrite core near the USB jack.
2. The mouse wheel on the 402 is simpler so it has a more solid feel and is more accurate when scrolling up and down web pages compared to the "loose" and laggy feeling 502 wheel.
3. The CPI indicator LEDs look so much cooler on the 402 and the overall design is sleeker which I prefer compared to the more "complicated" look of the 502.
4. The middle mouse click of the 402 is louder and stiffer but it is nowhere near as loud as the G300 or as hard to click as the G9x. The 502's middle click is much softer and quiet and the side scroll wheel tilt buttons are excellent for switching tabs on a browser.
5. I prefer the CPI switch and back/forward button shape and placement on the 502. I rarely use the CPI shift button but the 402's is easier to reach without changing my grip on the mouse.
6. the left and right click buttons on the 402 feels more robust and satisfying while the 502's buttons are very light and easy to press accidentally when lifting then dropping or suddenly grabbing the mouse.
7. The 402 does not have surface tuning which sucks.
8. The shape and size of the 402 fits my hand better except for the right lip which feels uncomfortable with my pinkie just like the G5 I used to own.
9. The most noticeable difference between the 402 and 502 is that the sensor tracking on the 402 is a bit jittery on the desktop with the Hayate mousepad compared to 502 which is smooth. The 402 seems to have a little acceleration which makes the cursor feel "floaty" compared to the raw input feel of the 502's sensor tracking during desktop use. I didn't notice that much difference between the two in gaming most likely because I'm usually preoccupied with actually playing to notice so they are both OK in that regard.
10. The overall build quality of the 502 is clearly superior and the feature-set and buttons are more complete than the 402 which is obviously the lower cost model.
11. The 502 is front heavy (without weights installed) while the 402 is lighter and more balanced overall.

In conclusion, I would say that I prefer the 502 overall because of the better sensor, build quality and feature set and the fact that I have gotten so used to it after months of use. I'll use the 402 a bit longer so see if it grows on me.


----------



## Longasc

jologskyblues, I very much share your observations. I liked the lower weight and better balance of the 402 a lot more though.

I find the main mouse buttons also have distinctly different feel when clicking them, the right mouse button was also not prone to clatter as that of my G502 did.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oDFaoQne8
> 
> No love for the mice...


----------



## Rimasleon

I bought them to replace my rocking MX518 and had choose G502 over G402. Same reasons as jologskyblues told. A sensor is superb!
A perfect mouse would be: G402 body + G502 custom weight system + G502 laser sensor + G502 cord + g502 buttons micro switches and no sniper button and razer lachesis or something like that scroll wheel







.


----------



## TriviumKM

Hiko actually used the g100s if i saw correctly, but he uses high sens so he can get away with the lower max speed.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> Hiko actually used the g100s if i saw correctly, but he uses high sens so he can get away the lower max speed.


He's using a kinzu v2


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> He's using a kinzu v2


Are you sure? it looked like a g100s when they showed him on screen in the Cologne tourney; i'll check it out later when i get time.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> He's using a kinzu v2


Hiko and Shroud are both using the G100s.


----------



## detto87

Yes, G100s on the event.


----------



## Longasc

The real drama is that the G502 and G402 seem to end the long tradition of the MX500/518/G400 shape.


----------



## Nilizum

Isn't the G402 supposed to feel like an MX518/G400? If it still feels like it, what drama?


----------



## Atavax

obviously if they change the shape, some people are going to prefer how it was before...


----------



## Nilizum

AFAIK they changed the design, but barely the shape/feel of it. It's counter-productive to call something a successor of something else without resembling it.


----------



## Rimasleon

The G402 shape is the same like MX518/G400 and etc.


----------



## ChevChelios

how does the mouse work @ 2500 DPI ?

I recall it was stated the sensor worked up to @ 2000 DPI and less and something like <1ms @ over 2000 DPI .. does that <1ms (?) make a difference ?


----------



## jologskyblues

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rimasleon*
> 
> The G402 shape is the same like MX518/G400 and etc.


I had the G5 which is also based on the MX518 design and I think the G402 has a familiar/similar feel to it although they look different design-wise.


----------



## Longasc

Well, similar shape underneath all the odd angles and button shapes. The G402 and G502 are smaller, could barely move the thumb on the G502. The G402 offers in general a little more space but is still smaller.

I find it kinda funny that the special hallmark they inherited is the dreaded "lip". Maybe some sandpaper artists can deal with it, I read about quite some people who did that.

I went back to my G400 yesterday. I am just used to this particular shape for over a decade and the better feeling of the G402 sensor doesn't make up for feeling less comfortable. If it breaks I might get an Avior, also a large mouse. Avior 7000 and G502 have both very good Pixart sensors, and so does the small Kone Pure Military.

People were looking for wrecking flaws of the AM sensor used in the G402. While these might be there in testing, they might never ever experience them in practice while playing. I am pretty sure people are too afraid and on a witch hunt in this regard.

-> With sensor becoming more or less perfect and above human capability to seriously wreck their tracking, shape and design become more important, maybe also the lighting and looks. I in general prefer no lights, but the abundance of lights on gaming mice tells me people somehow expect gaming mice to glow a lot.

What I like about Logitech is the high build quality. My G400 is still working nicely, buttons, wheel and feet are fine after over 3 years. Some are still using the MX518.

I very much prefer the looks, shape and general designs of many competitors, I like the shape of the Kone XTD and the Kone Pure, in fact I would prefer the Kone Pure in XL, even better shape than the XTD IMO. I also like the shape of the Zowie FK mice and the Deathadder, both are just a little bit too spartan with the DPI switch not being there or below the mouse, sometimes I really need to switch ingame.

Let me make a bold claim, I doubt we will see the G502 and G402 ever be used by dedicated expert FPS players. Logitech's very own team played with 2x G100s and 1x G400s.
I don't see the G502/402/602 establish themselves among pros, and even the rest will just go to the next "OMG 16.000 DPI, best sensor" mouse. I really don't believe in this new shape and doubt it will be around as long as the DeathAdder or MX/G400 shape.


----------



## L1nos

Quote:


> Let me make a bold claim, I doubt we will see the G502 and G402 ever be used by dedicated expert FPS players. Logitech's very own team played with 2x G100s and 1x G400s.
> I don't see the G502/402/602 establish themselves among pros, and even the rest will just go to the next "OMG 16.000 DPI, best sensor" mouse. I really don't believe in this new shape and doubt it will be around as long as the DeathAdder or MX/G400 shape.


I would not go this far.

I have used the G400s shape for over 10 years. Since the MX500 came out. And now I use the G402. And from the first moment on, it felt familiar and comfortable.
Like you said, one of Logitech's team uses a G400s. And since the G402 shape is nearly the same (also it looks different) i don't see any problem that some Pro Players will use the G402. The G402 is even lighter and has a better Sensor. But only time will tell


----------



## Longasc

They should make a limited edition black G400 with the G502 sensor for old farts with big hands unable to adapt to new things.







)


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> They should make a limited edition black G400 with the G502 sensor for old farts with big hands unable to adapt to new things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


Never going to happen.


----------



## ChevChelios

I've big hands and I like G502s shape more then G400 .. except for the LMB/sniper btn/wheel


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> I really don't believe in this new shape and doubt it will be around as long as the DeathAdder or MX/G400 shape.


I hope that won't happen ever again.


----------



## metal571

Really liking this mouse so far, just got mine today. There is some kind of issue with vertical tracking speed? I haven't noticed it yet in-game. Really good mouse. Something I'd recommend to most people for sure.


----------



## Arc0s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Really liking this mouse so far, just got mine today. There is some kind of issue with vertical tracking speed? I haven't noticed it yet in-game. Really good mouse. Something I'd recommend to most people for sure.


Metal where did you get it from?


----------



## Atavax

Well, i was given a g402 today. I was originally planning on doing the hip thing now a days and take a ton of pictures of it, and then pretend my opinion is important by making a review of it, but it wasn't a mouse i was planning on buying as i was fairly confident it was going to be too large and too heavy for my taste. So to me it didn't make sense to put that kind of effort in a mouse i wasn't going to like simply because it was for a different audience. I wasn't mistaken, it is too large and too heavy for me. If the back of the mouse was in my palm, i actually could not press the sniper button(not that i want the sniper button to begin with). The ridge on the right side of the mouse is too large and gets in the way. The thumb rest gets in the way and if i press down on it, i can easily and accidentally tilt the mouse and lift the sensor off of the pad and cause it to malfunction. The thumb rest also lifts my thumb up and makes it so i can accidentally click one of the side buttons, while the other side button is too far for me to realistically reach during gameplay. Also, i suspect the sensor is farther back then would be ideal for me.

Now that we have got the worst out of the way... Many people complained about the cable, and while i don't enjoy it as much as i did the g502's, i certainly don't have a problem with it. It seems suitable. I can't think of a mouse with a better cable other then the g502. I also appreciate the rather large shock absorbing connection of the cable to the mouse. The scroll wheel is a huge improvement over the g502 for me although it could probably stand to have the clicks just slightly farther apart to be marginally better for gaming. I also enjoyed the coating Logitech used on both sides of the mouse. While i haven't done very extensive testing with the sensor yet, i have not been able to organically cause the y axis problem and seriously doubt 99.9% of people that would buy the mouse would organically cause the problem.

Just for fun a picture with the g402 to show how out of place it is (the one directly to the g402's right is my mouse of choice):


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> Logitech's very own team played with 2x G100s and 1x G400s.


I think they actually played with 2 G100S, 1 Xai, 1 G400S, 1 Sensei Raw Diablo III.


----------



## TriviumKM

What i saw was:

Semphis: Sensei Diablo
Nothing: Xai
Sgares: G400s
Shroud & Hiko: G100s


----------



## Derp

That Pyra makes everything next to it look huge.


----------



## TK421

So the sensor is same as G100s? Does it mean that 1000dpi setting is the best and other than 1000 (400/800) will feel slightly worse?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> So the sensor is same as G100s? Does it mean that 1000dpi setting is the best and other than 1000 (400/800) will feel slightly worse?


The SROM is different than the G100S, but the sensor is the same. So the ideal setting would be different. I think the pixel array is less than 900 (I don't remember seeing a picture of it). The 3090 and 3310 have a 900 pixel array.


----------



## Arc0s

Would 1200 DPI step work fine on this mouse?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arc0s*
> 
> Would 1200 DPI step work fine on this mouse?


It wouldn't have added "smoothing" until more than 2,000 CPI, and you shouldn't experience malfunctioning during normal gaming on a decent surface.


----------



## Arc0s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> It wouldn't have added "smoothing" until more than 2,000 CPI, and you shouldn't experience malfunctioning during normal gaming on a decent surface.


I see, thanks.


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> That Pyra makes everything next to it look huge.


EVERYTHING!


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arc0s*
> 
> Metal where did you get it from?


Was sent to me.

What is the PCS limit on the Y axis on this thing?

EDIT: I could only get about 3.6 m/s max PCS on Enotus in the Y direction but well over 5 m/s in X


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Was sent to me.
> 
> What is the PCS limit on the Y axis on this thing?


Around 2.7 - 3 m/s.


----------



## RyuVsJaquio

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Was sent to me.
> 
> What is the PCS limit on the Y axis on this thing?


Just out of curiosity will you be doing a youtube review of your G402?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Around 2.7 - 3 m/s.


Is this confirming that the sensor is the only way to track the Y-axis?


----------



## IamInsane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> Is this confirming that the sensor is the only way to track the Y-axis?


It has already been said multiple times.


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IamInsane*
> 
> It has already been said multiple times.


I'll reread this thread later, thank you...


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> I'll reread this thread later, thank you...


He misunderstood your question. I think there's no answer yet. The last time someone wrote something about this was that contacts at Logitech said that this might be fixed in firmware.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuVsJaquio*
> 
> Just out of curiosity will you be doing a youtube review of your G402?


Yes, I always give myself at least a week's worth of use for any new product before review, though. So far this mouse is excellent for my own purposes, tracks really well, is highly accurate, and feels very snappy.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> He misunderstood your question. I think there's no answer yet. The last time someone wrote something about this was that contacts at Logitech said that this might be fixed in firmware.


They're looking into it.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> Is this confirming that the sensor is the only way to track the Y-axis?


No, it's just what I measured, and as that is what the sensor alone would be capable of the assumption was that fusion does only aid the x-axis tracking.

Nothing official yet.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Yes, I always give myself at least a week's worth of use for any new product before review, though. So far this mouse is excellent for my own purposes, tracks really well, is highly accurate, and feels very snappy.
> They're looking into it.


Hey, metal. Did you get the G402? What do you think about the right side of the mouse, is there enough room for both fingers under the lip?


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> Hey, metal. Did you get the G402? What do you think about the right side of the mouse, is there enough room for both fingers under the lip?


Yep I did. And there's definitely enough room. Never before has a Logitech gaming mouse been this comfortable. I'm SO glad the lip that was there is completely gone. Over long play sessions this is the first ergo mouse that is just as comfortable as my Avior. Just keep in mind this is from a fingertipper's perspective, though. The sniper button also doesn't affect me at all since my thumb sits well behind it.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Yep I did. And there's definitely enough room. Never before has a Logitech gaming mouse been this comfortable. I'm SO glad the lip that was there is completely gone. Over long play sessions this is the first ergo mouse that is just as comfortable as my Avior. Just keep in mind this is from a fingertipper's perspective, though. The sniper button also doesn't affect me at all since my thumb sits well behind it.


I ordered one yesterday, should get it in two days. I'm quite happy with my G502 though, so if the G402 isn't better, I'm sending it back. The sniper button should be easy to cover with tape if it's annoying







.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> I ordered one yesterday, should get it in two days. I'm quite happy with my G502 though, so if the G402 isn't better, I'm sending it back. The sniper button should be easy to cover with tape if it's annoying
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I'm really happy with the weight of the 402. I'm glad it's as light as it is, I can't imagine using the G502 even if it is using a better sensor in some ways just because it starts at a painful 120g.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> I'm really happy with the weight of the 402. I'm glad it's as light as it is, I can't imagine using the G502 even if it is using a better sensor in some ways just because it starts at a painful 120g.


I'm not so bothered by the weight of the G502, but I do like the fact that the G402 is lighter, and has a better scrollwheel. I don't like the things that people are saying about the right side of it though. The right side looks almost identical to me as the G502 at least, so I don't know what they're talking about.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> I'm not so bothered by the weight of the G502, but I do like the fact that the G402 is lighter, and has a better scrollwheel. I don't like the things that people are saying about the right side of it though. The right side looks almost identical to me as the G502 at least, so I don't know what they're talking about.


Where my ring and pinky rest, I'm not having any issues. These are NOT palm mice. Scroll wheel is quite solid although the Avior's still feels just that much more refined. I'm sure the wheel on the 502 is awful considering it has that free scroll feature.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Where my ring and pinky rest, I'm not having any issues. These are NOT palm mice. Scroll wheel is quite solid although the Avior's still feels just that much more refined. I'm sure the wheel on the 502 is awful considering it has that free scroll feature.


The G502 fits my palm grip better than any other mouse, so I would consider it a palm mouse. I really hope the G402 fits my grip just as well, that would make it the perfect mouse for me, and I wouldn't buy a new one in at least a year


----------



## ChevChelios

yeah, I palmed my G502 just fine .. it can definitely be a palm mouse

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arc0s*
> 
> Would 1200 DPI step work fine on this mouse?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> It wouldn't have added "smoothing" until more than 2,000 CPI, and you shouldn't experience malfunctioning during normal gaming on a decent surface.


what about 2500 ? it's the one I use for desktop in 1920x1080 (and a lot of games since I'm so used to it)

this "added smoothing" @ above 2000 is gonna be a problem ? or it doesn't affect tracking precision etc. ?


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The SROM is different than the G100S, but the sensor is the same. So the ideal setting would be different. I think the pixel array is less than 900 (I don't remember seeing a picture of it). The 3090 and 3310 have a 900 pixel array.


Can anyone test 400 and 1000dpi if they feel different on the same cm/360?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> yeah, I palmed my G502 just fine .. it can definitely be a palm mouse
> 
> what about 2500 ? it's the one I use for desktop in 1920x1080 (and a lot of games since I'm so used to it)
> 
> this "added smoothing" @ above 2000 is gonna be a problem ? or it doesn't affect tracking precision etc. ?


Cpate claims <1ms of smoothing above 2kcpi. He also claims the sensors that people felt were overly smoothed are in the 4-7ms range. I don't think you will have a problem with it if what he says is true.


----------



## ChevChelios

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Cpate claims <1ms of smoothing above 2kcpi. He also claims the sensors that people felt were overly smoothed are in the 4-7ms range. I don't think you will have a problem with it if what he says is true.


well yeah, he *said* so







.. but I wanna know if that really is the case in practice (no offense to Cpate







) .. from someone who has used the G402 @ over 2000


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Can anyone test 400 and 1000dpi if they feel different on the same cm/360?


of course, that will always be the case, what's your point?


----------



## Atavax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> I'm not so bothered by the weight of the G502, but I do like the fact that the G402 is lighter, and has a better scrollwheel. I don't like the things that people are saying about the right side of it though. The right side looks almost identical to me as the G502 at least, so I don't know what they're talking about.


its not identical, significantly larger ridge


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> its not identical, significantly larger ridge


Nah, not at the very end at least. Maybe a bit further to the back of the mouse.

There is really not a big difference. Look


----------



## metal571

Still feels like enough room for my grip anyway on the 402. I know I'd hate the weight on the 502 personally although many, many people won't mind it.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> EVERYTHING!


Pic or didn't happen. nohomo.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> of course, that will always be the case, what's your point?


I mean, is there any interpolation if you don't use 1000dpi?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> I mean, is there any interpolation if you don't use 1000dpi?


Cpate stated that it is native in steps of 80 CPI, we won't get a more credible source than him. It doesn't feel interpolated in the slightest either.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> I mean, is there any interpolation if you don't use 1000dpi?


The things that were true for the G100s do not apply for this G402. You can now configure DPI in 80 dpi steps and they are supposed to be all native (or behave the same), though CPate said there's something fishy going on after 2000 dpi (something like 1 or 2 ms delay for smoothing to try to suppress jitter somewhat).

Those new dpi steps of the G402... do you know that the mouse can't do the 1000 dpi you are asking about at all? It can do everything that can be divided by 80 without remainder. This means it can do 960 dpi or 1040 dpi, but can't do 1000.


----------



## CPate

There is <1ms of smoothing at CPI steps from 2080-4000. This is the same amount of smoothing present across all CPI steps in G100s. There is 0 smoothing at 2000 CPI and below, which (along with 1ms report rate vs 2ms) is an improvement vs the G100s sensor parameters.


----------



## deepor

A while ago I asked how the mouse manages to do the macros by itself, if it's showing up as a keyboard or what. I got the mouse today, and I found out it actually does exactly that. It shows up as a mouse but also a keyboard device. When programming a key press onto a button in the software, this will then also work in Linux and it even works in the BIOS.


----------



## Kelpocalypse

What's the release date for this mouse? I need a new mouse and don't want to have to wait 3 weeks ;( . Live in the US


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kelpocalypse*
> 
> What's the release date for this mouse? I need a new mouse and don't want to have to wait 3 weeks ;( . Live in the US


Yea same here...


----------



## oxidized

waiting for info to replace my g500s, either this or the next zowie EC or FK


----------



## TK421

Seeing prices around 48USD in Indonesia. This is preorder prices.


----------



## Kelpocalypse

Really wish they didn't do this pre-order stuff and just released it. I'm not sure when amazon will have it which is usually my preferred place to buy things. I need a mouse asap so I might just have to go with another one as i don't have any backups.


----------



## Ickz

How is the scroll wheel on the 402 compared to the 400/mx518? That was my only gripe about those mice - it didn't have good feedback with the scroll notches, just felt loose and cheap. After the disappointment I got with the FK1's wheel, I may be looking to go back to my roots with Logitech.


----------



## howzz1854

after reading the review and some of the comments here. i am perplexed. how can some of you call the G402/G502 feel the same as MX518/G400/G7 (aka the classic design)? and i don't mean this in a patronizing way. i really truely wonder.

just couple weeks ago, i tried a G502 out of curiosity for a couple weeks and returned it. regardless of how hard i tried to convince myself to keep it. it's just not wide enough for my hand. mainly the classic "lip" design has changed. i palm grip with my thumb and pinky on both sides, and index finger on left, middle finger on right button, while my ring finger needs a comfortable place to rest on top, not the side. the G502 design forces you to tuck your ring finger on the bottom right, cramped together with your pinky. as a result of long sessions of FPS gaming, my ring finger and pinky were cramping up close together causing discomfort. And what makes matter worse, if you try to rest your ring finger on what used to be where the "lip" should be, which is now really a ridge, it's not comfortable either, you're just resting on a ridge. so unless logitech wants me to chop off my ring ringer, i don't see how they expect the feel of the G502/G402 to be as comfortable as the classic design?

unless i am wrong about the design of G402. but my understanding is that the G402 has the same angle/slope design on the right side ridge as the G502, which is the main reason i returned the G502 and went back to my trusted G400s where all my fingers can spread out comfortably. it's like getting out of a mini cooper and going back into a limo.

Edit:
i should say that i have a relatively larger than average hands, by no means bear size. but it frustrates me that companies progressively coming out with smaller and narrower mice.


----------



## howzz1854

maybe i'll pick one up at the local Frys this weekend. since i love trying out new peripherals. but i highly doubt it'll be any different than G502. not unless they add a slab of space on the right for people to rest their ring finger.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *howzz1854*
> 
> maybe i'll pick one up at the local Frys this weekend. since i love trying out new peripherals. but i highly doubt it'll be any different than G502. not unless they add a slab of space on the right for people to rest their ring finger.


I find the extra room on the right side FAR better. Even on the 402 my ring and pinky don't feel forced together at all, I can easily have some room between those two fingers, and it's heaven for those who lift the mouse often. The old shape was downright PAIN for me personally since it forced me to lift the mouse with just my pinky and thumb which tired out my pinky much more quickly. It is much better to be able to lift with 3 fingers instead of 2. I'm a fingertip though so my ring and pinky don't go all the way to the end of the right of the mouse, they rest a bit farther back where the mouse is taller on the right side. So for me the design is significantly better and one of the first Logitech shapes I can actually be comfortable with in many years.


----------



## howzz1854

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> I find the extra room on the right side FAR better. Even on the 402 my ring and pinky don't feel forced together at all, I can easily have some room between those two fingers, and it's heaven for those who lift the mouse often. The old shape was downright PAIN for me personally since it forced me to lift the mouse with just my pinky and thumb which tired out my pinky much more quickly. It is much better to be able to lift with 3 fingers instead of 2. I'm a fingertip though so my ring and pinky don't go all the way to the end of the right of the mouse, they rest a bit farther back where the mouse is taller on the right side. So for me the design is significantly better and one of the first Logitech shapes I can actually be comfortable with in many years.


when you say "better" do you mean in comparison to G502, or in comparison to the classic MX518/G400s design. because if it's exactly the same as G502 on the right side, there really is no point for me to even pick it up and try it.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *howzz1854*
> 
> when you say "better" do you mean in comparison to G502, or in comparison to the classic MX518/G400s design. because if it's exactly the same as G502 on the right side, there really is no point for me to even pick it up and try it.


In comparison to the classic. I hated the classic despite the fact that I used the G5, MX518, G400, and G400s over the years but never liked that lip. That lip was always crap for me as a low sens FPS gamer. Obviously everyone has differing opinions on this. But the 402 and 502 both have the same type of right side edge.


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> In comparison to the classic. I hated the classic despite the fact that I used the G5, MX518, G400, and G400s over the years but never liked that lip. That lip was always crap for me as a low sens FPS gamer. Obviously everyone has differing opinions on this. But the 402 and 502 both have the same type of right side edge.


I could never stand the lip either and the way you described how the 402 feels now makes me even more excited to get mine. I agree with everything you said about it being tiring to lift with just the pinky.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> I could never stand the lip either and the way you described how the 402 feels now makes me even more excited to get mine. I agree with everything you said about it being tiring to lift with just the pinky.


It's every bit as good as you had hoped. That's all I have to say. No more pinky tiredness ever again. I am almost in love, why couldn't they have changed this a long time ago is beyond me. The 402 is one hell of a mouse. I can't decide between it and my Avior at this point. Both are excellent.


----------



## nocebo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> There is <1ms of smoothing at CPI steps from 2080-4000. This is the same amount of smoothing present across all CPI steps in G100s. There is 0 smoothing at 2000 CPI and below, which (along with 1ms report rate vs 2ms) is an improvement vs the G100s sensor parameters.


Nice info to know. Glad to have a company representive here that can give those exact numbers.


----------



## RyuVsJaquio

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> It's every bit as good as you had hoped. That's all I have to say. No more pinky tiredness ever again. I am almost in love, why couldn't they have changed this a long time ago is beyond me. The 402 is one hell of a mouse. I can't decide between it and my Avior at this point. Both are excellent.


Have you tried the 502 at all? Would it best if I waited for the 402 to launch or could I safely go with the 502?


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuVsJaquio*
> 
> Have you tried the 502 at all? Would it best if I waited for the 402 to launch or could I safely go with the 502?


I haven't tried the 502 yet, but I'm less willing to try that since I know it would be way too heavy even with no weights


----------



## Kelpocalypse

Any of you guys know where I can get a G402 earlier than September in the US?


----------



## howzz1854

i guess to sum it up. the 502/402 are for people with 2 fingers on top. and the classic design MX518/G400 are for those with 3 fingers on top.


----------



## Atavax

has anyone that uses 3 fingers on top tried the 402 and says it doesn't fit them? While i don't normally put 3 fingers on top, i can easily fit 3 fingers on top of the g402, and i think the g402 has a substantially larger ridge then the 502.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> has anyone that uses 3 fingers on top tried the 402 and says it doesn't fit them? While i don't normally put 3 fingers on top, i can easily fit 3 fingers on top of the g402, and i think the g402 has a substantially larger ridge then the 502.


Same here

G502 fits more as '122' layout, I found G402 is more suitable with '131' grip.

The rubber and textured side helps a lot when lifting the mouse compared to g400s, which coating is slippery

My biggest problem on this mouse is that freaking cord is so stiff. I can't use mouse bungee or i'll fight not only the cord but entire bungee for 180 turn


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *howzz1854*
> 
> i guess to sum it up. the 502/402 are for people with 2 fingers on top. and the classic design MX518/G400 are for those with 3 fingers on top.


I disagree. The G402 feels great to me used in both ways (I've used it for two days by now).

When using three fingers on top, there's enough room for both ring finger and middle finger on the right mouse button area. From the mouse wheel to the right edge of the mouse, it's very similar distance on the old MX500 I have here to compare and this new G402. The mouse button itself is wider on this G402 than on the classic design, the edge smaller, but overall it's the same amount of room for middle+ring finger on top.

When doing something where I lift the mouse a lot, I need to use it with two fingers on top, with the ring finger on the right side. Unless I do that, my pinky gets numb fast. When using the mouse like that, there's a lot more room for the ring finger on the right side of the G402 compared to the classic design. It seems doubled or so. This change to the shape seems like an excellent idea to me. The extra space also feels better when just having the pinky over there.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> I disagree. The G402 feels great to me used in both ways (I've used it for two days by now).
> 
> When using three fingers on top, there's enough room for both ring finger and middle finger on the right mouse button area. From the mouse wheel to the right edge of the mouse, it's very similar distance on the old MX500 I have here to compare and this new G402. The mouse button itself is wider on this G402 than on the classic design, the edge smaller, but overall it's the same amount of room for middle+ring finger on top.
> 
> When doing something where I lift the mouse a lot, I need to use it with two fingers on top, with the ring finger on the right side. Unless I do that, my pinky gets numb fast. When using the mouse like that, there's a lot more room for the ring finger on the right side of the G402 compared to the classic design. It seems doubled or so. This change to the shape seems like an excellent idea to me. The extra space also feels better when just having the pinky over there.


for me I perfer g502 design than g402.

the space for both finger is so small I have to 'squeeze' the mouse for full control. that reduce my stability of control.

But compared to g400s that's an improvement. For some reason when I use g400s I am forces to 'press' the ring finger, that(coupled with slippery pinky rest) makes mouse lift unpleasent


----------



## Xanatos

what is the difference in the sensors between the g502 and g402?


----------



## doomleika

Unfortunely g402 seems to suffer from mouse slamming problem too


----------



## popups

I never slammed my mouse like that. I don't see why anyone would. If you slam a mouse like that of course the shell would actuate the switch if the switches are light as Omrons and there isn't much pre travel.


----------



## Kelpocalypse

Wow that actually looks pretty bad at some parts your not even slamming it that hard it could be a natural movement. I might just get a G400s and not wait for this. I kind of need a mouse asap.


----------



## metal571

402 Works pretty well for me as a 122 mouse with fingertip. That's exactly my preferred grip style.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I never slammed my mouse like that. I don't see why anyone would. If you slam a mouse like that of course the shell would actuate the switch if the switches are light as Omrons and there isn't much pre travel.


The later half simulated low sens mouse lift motion. I have to say I am disappointed.

What takes the cake is G502 does not have any of this problem even I slam 3x hard than I would for a mouse


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kelpocalypse*
> 
> Wow that actually looks pretty bad at some parts your not even slamming it that hard it could be a natural movement. I might just get a G400s and not wait for this. I kind of need a mouse asap.


Hungry, gonna get something to eat. I'll test this again. to make sure it's firmware related issue or construction related

finger crossed. If it's later, then G402 will be a failure.


----------



## IamInsane

Who would slam their mouse like that while gaming ? Once again it's a made up issue...


----------



## doomleika

G402 G502 comparison here, if yyou can't see it. let youtube process the video


----------



## Kelpocalypse

Mouse definitely has some problems . That should be fixable though if I recall the g502 had an update which fixed a similar problem. By the way which mouse do you prefer more. G502 or g402?


----------



## metal571

That's funny I have the same issue but never once did I slam my mouse down hard enough to notice that so far in actual gameplay.


----------



## maxvons

That's a firmware issue. G502 had it to in the start.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Unfortunely g402 seems to suffer from mouse slamming problem too
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


My G402 does not have that issue. I tried slamming it down harder than you do in the video and it does not click.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> My G402 does not have that issue. I tried slamming it down harder than you do in the video and it does not click.


Can't isolate the cause but the problem seems to be construction related(i.e. you can't fix it with firmware)

when i lift the mouse sideways I can control which button to misclick.

lift left side, i get left click, lift right, I get right click. That means the mouse can not be fixed without custom mod or newer batch.

A mouse designed for FPS but you can't swing huge because the cord. and misclick issue when you put mouse back. This doesn't look good. even this is the closest ideal mouse for me.


----------



## Neo-ST

Yesterday I went to buy G502 and salesman told me not to, better to wait for G402 (he asked me what I play and I told him mostly FPS).
Was he right ?
Should I really wait for G402 (it's not gonna be here for another 2 weeks) and should I go for 502 ?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kelpocalypse*
> 
> Mouse definitely has some problems . That should be fixable though if I recall the g502 had an update which fixed a similar problem. By the way which mouse do you prefer more. G502 or g402?


Can't decide which is better.

The thing is both mouse have some quirks which I hate.

G502 have worst feet ever, I can't use it with G440(Hardpad) without worrying once huge motion may destroy the feet, plus it's 121g weight, the rattle of middle wheel only make it worse.

G402 fixed a lot problem but introduce other. The cord is simply horrible. I get why logi uses thinner cable in early products(g100s/g400s). It's may be fragile, but at least it won't get in the way when you play


----------



## AlCZ

I haven´t problem with feets in my G502, maybe problem with initial series ?

G402 is under G502 no ? Proteus Core have better sensor as Hyperion Fury and difference in price is 10USD/Euro...
Unfortunatelly G502 is a bit heavy. Salesman can in first line - sales


----------



## ChevChelios

I didn't have a problem with G502 feet (didn't use it long though), but they were too small nonetheless

bigger ones like Mionix Naos or G402 are better


----------



## Neo-ST

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlCZ*
> 
> Salesman can in first line - sales


Well, he had 502 there and could sell it to me right away, but instead he advised me to better wait for 402.
In reality, I need a new mouse as soon as possible because my G5 has started malfunctioning.


----------



## TK421

Any word from logitech about Y axis accelerometer fix?


----------



## MadGear

Just saw the review on the mouse by linustechtips and it seems that the reviewer also was easily placing his ring finger on the rubberized side and not on top of the edge of the lip itself so maybe I'll give this mouse a shot after all. But it still looks like the edge of the "lip" could be uncomfortable after a while, don't you guys have any issues with it?


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MadGear*
> 
> Just saw the review on the mouse by linustechtips and it seems that the reviewer also was easily placing his ring finger on the rubberized side and not on top of the edge of the lip itself so maybe I'll give this mouse a shot after all. But it still looks like the edge of the "lip" could be uncomfortable after a while, don't you guys have any issues with it?


Every review of the G402 I've seen, has had reviewers that placed their ring finger under the lip. I should've gotten my G402 today, but UPS sucks as usual.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> G502 have worst feet ever, I can't use it with G440(Hardpad) without worrying once huge motion may destroy the feet, plus it's 121g weight, the rattle of middle wheel only make it worse.


There's no problem with feet at all on my Roccat Hiro mouse pad, but I have it only for a week now. Weight is preference. There's not the slightest rattle no matter how much I shake it when holding the mouse _in the air_. Maybe I got my G502 Proteus Core mouse from a 2nd batch or something.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Can't isolate the cause but the problem seems to be construction related(i.e. you can't fix it with firmware)
> 
> when i lift the mouse sideways I can control which button to misclick.
> 
> lift left side, i get left click, lift right, I get right click. That means the mouse can not be fixed without custom mod or newer batch.
> 
> A mouse designed for FPS but you can't swing huge because the cord. and misclick issue when you put mouse back. This doesn't look good. even this is the closest ideal mouse for me.


The misclick issue can be fixed via firmware. I think they added some delay to the M1 and M2 buttons after the sensor lost tracking (lift off) and has been placed down again. Can't be fixed otherwise with switches as light as the Omrons. CPate might be able to share more detail on that.

I can slam mine down even harder than you do without misclicking. Also the cord on mine isn't really that stiff, not as much as the G100s cord was (jesus, that was a tough cable)


----------



## maxvons

Getting the G402 tomorrow. Really exited. I hope I like the shape as much as the G502, then it really is the perfect mouse for me. As the only thing I want that's different from the G502, is a bit less weight, rubberized scroll wheel and less obtrusive sniper button


----------



## Kelpocalypse

Let us know your opinions once you get it . I wish I could test it out but I'm debating whether I should wait for this mouse or just get a mionix naos 7000. Since it's pretty rough using my laptop touchpad right now. Not sure if I can do two more weeks


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kelpocalypse*
> 
> Let us know your opinions once you get it . I wish I could test it out but I'm debating whether I should wait for this mouse or just get a mionix naos 7000. Since it's pretty rough using my laptop touchpad right now. Not sure if I can do two more weeks


I'm not a huge fan of the Naos, it really isn't a mouse for everyone. I will tell you my opinion of the G402 when I get it.


----------



## Atavax

the naos is kind of a pain to pick up from what i hear


----------



## Kelpocalypse

Ah i just did some more research meant to say Avior not Naos i got them mixed up. Amazon warehouse deals has them for $50 right now so its not a bad deal.


----------



## popups

I assume it is a physical characteristic that causes the buttons to click when you slam your mouse with the intent of causing clicks. I have a low sensitivity -- I never slam a mouse like that, only time I ever have my mouse hit the table like that is when I accidentally drop it.

You could open the mouse and shave a little off the posts to give some room between the switch and the shell. Or maybe you just have to take it apart and put it back together.

It would suck if Logitech adds a delay to the buttons so this "issue" is "fixed" through firmware. That would be bad in my opinion. I want less delay at all times, be it in coding or physical design. I know that Logitech unfortunately did this with the G502's latest firmware. I rather have them increase the switch actuation force slightly.

I probably use one the lowest sensitivities on this forum... I never intentionally did such an action with my mouse. It isn't an issue to me.


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I assume it is a physical characteristic that causes the buttons to click when you slam your mouse with the intent of causing clicks. I have a low sensitivity -- I never slam a mouse like that, only time I ever have my mouse hit the table like that is when I accidentally drop it.
> 
> You could open the mouse and shave a little off the posts to give some room between the switch and the shell. Or maybe you just have to take it apart and put it back together.
> 
> *It would suck if Logitech adds a delay to the buttons so this "issue" is "fixed" through firmware. That would be bad in my opinion. I want less delay at all times, be it in coding or physical design. I know that Logitech unfortunately did this with the G502's latest firmware. I rather have them increase the switch actuation force slightly.*
> 
> I probably use one the lowest sensitivities on this forum... I never intentionally did such an action with my mouse. It isn't an issue to me.


100% agree. Less delay at all times.


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> 100% agree. Less delay at all times.


Actually the latest firwmware (88.2.16) is 0.6ms faster to transfer a mouse button signal to the PC.


----------



## Nilizum

Anyone know why US release is taking so long?


----------



## Kelpocalypse

I think im gonna go ahead and go with the Avior 7000 I can get for $50 bucks . Can't really wait for the G402 .


----------



## lookitdisnub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atavax*
> 
> the naos is kind of a pain to pick up from what i hear


Yea that was my experience


----------



## Falkentyne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> That's a firmware issue. G502 had it to in the start.


It was fixed in a G502 firmware update, but what exactly caused this to happen? People originally thought the RMB was pressing the Omron switches, but it's pretty clear that since this was fixed in the FW update, that was NOT what was happening! It was right click being triggered, but -why-? If it wasn't the button pressing down when slamming the mouse, then what the heck was causing it?


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Falkentyne*
> 
> It was fixed in a G502 firmware update, but what exactly caused this to happen? People originally thought the RMB was pressing the Omron switches, but it's pretty clear that since this was fixed in the FW update, that was NOT what was happening! It was right click being triggered, but -why-? If it wasn't the button pressing down when slamming the mouse, then what the heck was causing it?


It most likely is the buttons being physically actuated. It could easily be fixed through coding by setting some kind of threshold for how long the button needs to be pressed to actually register.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Falkentyne*
> 
> It was fixed in a G502 firmware update, but what exactly caused this to happen? People originally thought the RMB was pressing the Omron switches, but it's pretty clear that since this was fixed in the FW update, that was NOT what was happening! It was right click being triggered, but -why-? If it wasn't the button pressing down when slamming the mouse, then what the heck was causing it?


If it's not a mechanical issue, it could be a mistake in the programming of the firmware, something like going over the bounds of an array and corrupting memory.

But it seems fine on my G402, so it's probably mechanical for doomleika?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> If it's not a mechanical issue, it could be a mistake in the programming of the firmware, something like going over the bounds of an array and corrupting memory.
> 
> But it seems fine on my G402, so it's probably mechanical for doomleika?


Some more details



I think it's mechanical issue.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Some more details
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's mechanical issue.


Wow... well, mine doesn't do that at all, so at least there's some G402 out there that don't have that issue.

I tried it again and I also tried it directly on the table instead of my mouse pad (because mouse pad is cloth). Letting it fall down does not click, and actively smashing it into the table also does not click for me.


----------



## metal571

Just confirming that my G402 DOES do that. It can happen to left or right mouse buttons.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> Wow... well, mine doesn't do that at all, so at least there's some G402 out there that don't have that issue.
> 
> I tried it again and I also tried it directly on the table instead of my mouse pad (because mouse pad is cloth). Letting it fall down does not click, and actively smashing it into the table also does not click for me.


I guess that wound be faulty batch then, no?

Crap, I'll return the one for RMA I guess


----------



## popups

Take the top off the mouse. Then do the same thing. I doubt anyone here will do that for the sake of their warranty.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I can slam mine down even harder than you do without misclicking. Also the cord on mine isn't really that stiff, not as much as the G100s cord was (jesus, that was a tough cable)


No, I am sure G100s' cable is nowhere as g402 bad, I've made a test. Your G402 might be preview version

G402



G100s



G502



G400s


----------



## metal571

The cord I also find quite stiff. Almost as bad as the Rival, if not worse, I can't exactly remember. That and the Y axis limited PCS are the biggest issues with the mouse.


----------



## Derp

If someone doesn't read this thread but stumbles upon doomlieka's youtube channel they have to be wondering just wth hes doing. Slamming mice down and shaking them in mid air.









Also, best youtube user name.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> If someone doesn't read this thread but stumbles upon doomlieka's youtube channel they have to be wondering just wth hes doing. Slamming mice down and shaking them in mid air.


Mouse hater's channel lol

actually it have 100+ titanfall and UT3 video for g402 test. Not so sure should I put it public though, I am pretty horrible player


----------



## semantics

Could always try to heat the cable up with a blow dryer(at low heat) ofc it's going to retain w.e shape you blowdry it into, but at least you could remove the kinks in the cable. and make it straight. I've never bothered because stiff cables don't bother me i just hang my mouse cable over a greater height and longer distance than a mouse bungee would offer and it seems to do the trick. It's that or spend a day stripping wire and heat shrinking braided cable over the bare wire.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I assume it is a physical characteristic that causes the buttons to click when you slam your mouse with the intent of causing clicks. I have a low sensitivity -- I never slam a mouse like that, only time I ever have my mouse hit the table like that is when I accidentally drop it.
> 
> You could open the mouse and shave a little off the posts to give some room between the switch and the shell. Or maybe you just have to take it apart and put it back together.
> 
> It would suck if Logitech adds a delay to the buttons so this "issue" is "fixed" through firmware. That would be bad in my opinion. I want less delay at all times, be it in coding or physical design. I know that Logitech unfortunately did this with the G502's latest firmware. I rather have them increase the switch actuation force slightly.
> 
> I probably use one the lowest sensitivities on this forum... I never intentionally did such an action with my mouse. It isn't an issue to me.


You can't shave anything off, Logitech doesn't go the cheap way with plastic actuators. They have a dedicated plate to actuate.

The issue was also fixed mechanically, but you can make the mouse malfunction still if you slam it down. The harder the surface the easier. On my Talent, Qck heavy or UC 50 I have to thrust it down to actuate a button, but that is clearly no use scenario.

Also the thing with the delay was probably worded wrong, it's kind of the same as with a mechanical keyboard switch. I might be mistaken in general here, it's just something I remember having heard.


----------



## maxvons

Finally got my G402. First impressions are good. Gonna play some sessions tomorrow, and see how it does. I found the right side to be just as roomy as on the G502, and I don't have any issues with the lip. The weight is really nice, and it feels incredibly light in comparison to the G502. The sniper button is way better placed and shaped. I might just leave it alone







. The wheel is quite interesting. I like the grip of it and look. It feels a bit different to other rubber wheels though, but the click of it is really nice. Buttons feel almost just as good as on the G502. Materials/coating feels just as good, if not better. The place for the thumb is still nice, but I prefer the G502's bit bigger space. Placement of the side buttons is perfect for me, just as good as the G502. Haven't tested the sensor yet. But this is looking like it might be my dream mouse.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> Finally got my G402. First impressions are good. Gonna play some sessions tomorrow, and see how it does. I found the right side to be just as roomy as on the G502, and I don't have any issues with the lip. The weight is really nice, and it feels incredibly light in comparison to the G502. The sniper button is way better placed and shaped. I might just leave it alone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . The wheel is quite interesting. I like the grip of it and look. It feels a bit different to other rubber wheels though, but the click of it is really nice. Buttons feel almost just as good as on the G502. Materials/coating feels just as good, if not better. The place for the thumb is still nice, but I prefer the G502's bit bigger space. Placement of the side buttons is perfect for me, just as good as the G502. Haven't tested the sensor yet. But this is looking like it might be my dream mouse.


The sensor is as good as you will need too. lol. It's awesome. I still prefer my Avior though as it feels more like a pencil in shape than the 402, I've just gotten so used to ambi mice that I can't even go back to ergo mice. That said the 402 is definitely one of the best mice I've ever tested and I'll be doing a full review next week most likely as long as moving doesn't get in the way too much.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> The sensor is as good as you will need too. lol. It's awesome. I still prefer my Avior though as it feels more like a pencil in shape than the 402, I've just gotten so used to ambi mice that I can't even go back to ergo mice. That said the 402 is definitely one of the best mice I've ever tested and I'll be doing a full review next week most likely as long as moving doesn't get in the way too much.


Ah. I prefer ergo mice I think. I quite like the Sensei though. But my preffered grip just fits perfect on the G502 and G402, I don't know why really.


----------



## hza

Just because it "feels (or seems) more natural".


----------



## maxvons

Damn, after trying out the G402 for a few hours today, I'm not sure what I think of it. The right side "lip" kinda digs into my ringfinger, where I cross it. The lip is way more smoothed down on the G502...


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> Damn, after trying out the G402 for a few hours today, I'm not sure what I think of it. The right side "lip" kinda digs into my ringfinger, where I cross it. The lip is way more smoothed down on the G502...


it was never that bad on the G500 series to begin with.
that shell is way more comfortable than g400 series shell.

g400 is for ring finger lifters imo


----------



## VxO2

Why wasnt Ino. doing any enotus mouse tests like he did in his previous reviews with the g502 for example?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VxO2*
> 
> Why wasnt Ino. doing any enotus mouse tests like he did in his previous reviews with the g502 for example?


Enotus isn't needed now that we have access to MouseTester. (Thank you microe)


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Some more details
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's mechanical issue.


I just realized the mouse slam issue is common across logitech design...well at least for G400s and G100s

Here's some video

G400s



G100s blue (retail)



G100s black(G100s keyboard/mouse bundle)



I'm interested to see if this unique to logitech mouse or shared across all mouse design


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VxO2*
> 
> Why wasnt Ino. doing any enotus mouse tests like he did in his previous reviews with the g502 for example?


Derp already said it.

I used both in previous tests because Enotus was well known and I wanted to see for myself how comparable both programs were. As MouseTester offered better results (because of the graph that shows more than just the pcs) I stayed with it.


----------



## ChevChelios

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> G400s
> 
> 
> 
> G100s blue (retail)
> 
> 
> 
> G100s black(G100s keyboard/mouse bundle)


sorry for o/t - which game is that in all 3 of your videos ?


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> sorry for o/t - which game is that in all 3 of your videos ?


It looks like Unreal Tournament 3.


----------



## semantics

It's probably Unreal Tournament 3. Also weird i can't seem to get any of my logitech mice to do this on a hard surface with no pad dropping of a similar manner. Although i can get it sometimes if i full of slam it but it goes away if i slam it while my fingers are resting on the buttons, ie normally gripping it.


----------



## Ashigi

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> I just realized the mouse slam issue is common across logitech design...well at least for G400s and G100s
> 
> Here's some video
> 
> G4I'm interested to see if this unique to logitech mouse or shared across all mouse design


Maybe omron switch issue? btw G400s and G100s have same switch
Can someone test another mouse with switch from Omron?
My cheap mouse (Logitech B100) don't have issue like this
I have another mouse with omron switch, Roccat Lua, but I can't test it (I give it to my brother)


----------



## murderbymodem

How durable is the cord on the G402? I've been using Logitech mice as long as I've been PC gaming. I literally went from an MX510 when I built my first PC, to an MX518, to a G400, to a G400s. I don't know if my next mouse will be a Logitech though. Logitech had to replace my original G400 because of flimsy cord, then my replacement suffered the same issue and they sent me a G400s. They said this G400s will be my last replacement, but I'm concerned because the cord seems just as thin and weak as it was on the G400, so I have a feeling I'll be in the market for a mouse again soon.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Redmist*
> 
> How durable is the cord on the G402?


Considering the mouse hasn't released in some countries and has only been on sale in other countries for a week or two, any reports of durability cannot be trusted. Logitech did beef up the stress relief where the cable leaves the mouse though so durability should be improved over the G400/G400s.

The cord in my G400 recently started failing on me too







.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Considering the mouse hasn't released in some countries and has only been on sale in other countries for a week or two, any reports of durability cannot be trusted. Logitech did beef up the stress relief where the cable leaves the mouse though so durability should be improved over the G400/G400s.
> 
> The cord in my G400 recently started failing on me too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I believe it will be very very durable.

one common complaint on logi mouse is frail cable. After using G402, I understand why they choose such thin cable on early product.

The cable of G402 is so heavy and stiff which reminds you it's there everytime you move mouse at moderate level. No mouse bungee nor usage(i.e. G100s) can redeem this issue only to make it worse.

The durability come at cost of near unusable experience and inconsistent force fight against you when you move mouse.

To me this is probably even worse than sensei mouse speed variance issue.


----------



## deepor

The stiff cable is also slowly driving me crazy. I'll try to replace the cable in the future. The connector inside the mouse might be the same as what's in some of my old mice and it might fit without any work required. I just can't look right now because I want to wait a month or so to see if problems will show up before opening it and losing warranty.

Other than the cable, I like the mouse so much I think I'll stay with it for the next few years.


----------



## the1freeMan

@CPate

Can you tell us how many maximum fps the sensor does?


----------



## trhead

The stiff cable was a deal breaker for me. Its pretty much unusable with bungees.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> The stiff cable is also slowly driving me crazy. I'll try to replace the cable in the future. The connector inside the mouse might be the same as what's in some of my old mice and it might fit without any work required. I just can't look right now because I want to wait a month or so to see if problems will show up before opening it and losing warranty.
> 
> Other than the cable, I like the mouse so much I think I'll stay with it for the next few years.


For now I just put it aside and back to G502/G100s. Maybe this issue will be resolved in next revision like prediction of G400.


----------



## maxvons

I don't get why they didn't just make the right side lip 100% like the G502, instead of a really sharp edge..


----------



## popups

I don't define the mouse clicking, after slamming it on the table, as an issue. This is what happens when you have light switches and no pre travel between the button piece and the switch. Logitech doesn't need to mess with their mice, would just make things worse, it's fine as is.

I think my Diamondback does that after I took away the pre travel. I haven't checked in a long time -- the Diamondback is in the closet.


----------



## javamoose

Amazon now saying it should be available on the 30th.


----------



## JustinSane

Just got mine from my preorder with Logitech. Cable is pretty stiff and I'm hoping I get used to it. It makes the mouse feel a lot heavier than it really is.

Sensor feels VERY nice!

EDIT: If you weigh the cable down in a spot so that you have just enough length for swiping, makes the stiff cable better to deal with. Now I'm happy


----------



## howzz1854

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> I don't get why they didn't just make the right side lip 100% like the G502, instead of a really sharp edge..


this is a bit disconcerting for me. consider the G502 already caused pain for my ring finger. if the G402 is considered to have a sharper ridge for you, i am not too confident with the new G402 design.

all i needed out of the G502 design was for them to have the ridge 1/4 inch higher, so i could tuck my ring finger under without discomfort, OR have it 1/4 inch wider so i could rest my ring finger on top. i have big hands with long fingers, as it stands, this new design is not the right one for me.

i picked up a Mionix NAOS 7000 this weekend by accident. went to FRYS to return a Razer blackwidow ultimate that had a faulty shift key. instead of exchanging it for a new one, i decided to get a mouse instead. tried out a NAOS 7000 that was on display and it molded to my hand. had the wife tried it, who was standing next to me, she wouldn't let go of her hand. i brought it home and so far it has been VERY comfortable. only gripe is the NAOS can be a bit slippery and hard to pick up when you first put your hand on it. but after a min or two when your hand warms up, it seems to stick to your hand. the whole design of the NAOS is just very egronomic, you don't even need to struggle to get comfortable as i had to with the G502.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *howzz1854*
> 
> this is a bit disconcerting for me. consider the G502 already caused pain for my ring finger. if the G402 is considered to have a sharper ridge for you, i am not too confident with the new G402 design.
> 
> all i needed out of the G502 design was for them to have the ridge 1/4 inch higher, so i could tuck my ring finger under without discomfort, OR have it 1/4 inch wider so i could rest my ring finger on top. i have big hands with long fingers, as it stands, this new design is not the right one for me.
> 
> i picked up a Mionix NAOS 7000 this weekend by accident. went to FRYS to return a Razer blackwidow ultimate that had a faulty shift key. instead of exchanging it for a new one, i decided to get a mouse instead. tried out a NAOS 7000 that was on display and it molded to my hand. had the wife tried it, who was standing next to me, she wouldn't let go of her hand. i brought it home and so far it has been VERY comfortable. only gripe is the NAOS can be a bit slippery and hard to pick up when you first put your hand on it. but after a min or two when your hand warms up, it seems to stick to your hand. the whole design of the NAOS is just very egronomic, you don't even need to struggle to get comfortable as i had to with the G502.


I can't really get comfortable with the Naos for some reason. The rests for my ring and pinky finger are too short IMO.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *howzz1854*
> 
> this is a bit disconcerting for me. consider the G502 already caused pain for my ring finger. if the G402 is considered to have a sharper ridge for you, i am not too confident with the new G402 design.
> 
> all i needed out of the G502 design was for them to have the ridge 1/4 inch higher, so i could tuck my ring finger under without discomfort, OR have it 1/4 inch wider so i could rest my ring finger on top. i have big hands with long fingers, as it stands, this new design is not the right one for me.
> 
> i picked up a Mionix NAOS 7000 this weekend by accident. went to FRYS to return a Razer blackwidow ultimate that had a faulty shift key. instead of exchanging it for a new one, i decided to get a mouse instead. tried out a NAOS 7000 that was on display and it molded to my hand. had the wife tried it, who was standing next to me, she wouldn't let go of her hand. i brought it home and so far it has been VERY comfortable. only gripe is the NAOS can be a bit slippery and hard to pick up when you first put your hand on it. but after a min or two when your hand warms up, it seems to stick to your hand. the whole design of the NAOS is just very egronomic, you don't even need to struggle to get comfortable as i had to with the G502.


I think It will be ok if you put your ring finger on top of the ridge, I found it give me good grip.


----------



## Xanatos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> I don't get why they didn't just make the right side lip 100% like the G502, instead of a really sharp edge..


yeah, i agree. how does logitech intend for people to hold this mouse? palm grip with thumb and pink only on the sides?


----------



## Axaion

My uncle would love this mouse, he lost most of his ring finger in an accident 15~ years ago.

I bet logitech thought of him when they made the mouse


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> My uncle would love this mouse, he lost most of his ring finger in an accident 15~ years ago.
> 
> I bet logitech thought of him when they made the mouse


I honestly measured with a ruler. It's the same amount of space on the right mouse button as on the older models, measured from the right edge of the wheel to the outer edge of the mouse. There's now also more space on the right side of the mouse for people that lift the mouse with thumb and ring finger.


----------



## JustinSane

They really dropped the ball with this cord







. I thought I could get used to it but it's still really bad. I don't understand the choice to use a cable like this. Damn, feels like every mouse nowadays has at least one thing majorly wrong with it.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> They really dropped the ball with this cord
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I thought I could get used to it but it's still really bad. I don't understand the choice to use a cable like this. Damn, feels like every mouse nowadays has at least one thing majorly wrong with it.


Welcome to the club. Let's hope they will fix it.


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Welcome to the club. Let's hope they will fix it.


Fix it how though? We've already spent the $60. Are we going to spend another $60 to buy a "G402s"?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> Fix it how though? We've already spent the $60. Are we going to spend another $60 to buy a "G402s"?


Another $60? If you're unhappy with the G402 then return it for a full refund.


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Another $60? If you're unhappy with the G402 then return it for a full refund.


Yea I gotta check Logitech's return policy. It sucks, I really wanted to like this mouse but the cord is horrible.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> Fix it how though? We've already spent the $60. Are we going to spend another $60 to buy a "G402s"?


RMA and stuff, I dunno


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> They really dropped the ball with this cord
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I thought I could get used to it but it's still really bad. I don't understand the choice to use a cable like this. Damn, feels like every mouse nowadays has at least one thing majorly wrong with it.


When I first got into PC gaming I wondered my so many people used and praised older mice (such as the MLT04 trio) but I'm starting to understand. Technical limitations aside, at least they upheld a level of quality and were built to last.


----------



## howzz1854

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> I honestly measured with a ruler. It's the same amount of space on the right mouse button as on the older models, measured from the right edge of the wheel to the outer edge of the mouse. There's now also more space on the right side of the mouse for people that lift the mouse with thumb and ring finger.


the problem is the width of the lip is no longer the same. if you measure where the right button ends to the edge of the lip, it is now half the size. so there's not enough space to rest your ring finger. if you put your ring finger on top, it'll either end up on the right click button, which for me accidentally triggers the right button, or hanging on the sharp edge of the lip. and for me, if you tug your ring finger under neath the ridge, you're just cramping your ring finger with the pinky causing me discomfort.

if you look at the mouse directly from the front, in comparison to the classic logitech MX518 design, the slope of the lip is now less steep, and more gradual.

i have no problem holding a G100 or any ambidextrous mouse because they all have the similar design of right side ridge in a way that they all pretty much meant to have your ring finger tucked under neath, and most ambidextrous mice have plenty of room at the bottom for that, and pretty much no room for it on top. but this new design of logitech is an awckward in-between for me. it's not enough room on top to rest your ring finger, if you do, the ring finger is resting on the right button itself, and you accidentally click the right button with your ring finger. but there's not enough room at the bottom as well. the only way this mouse will ever be comfortable for me is if i take my dremel and shave down the ridge to a point that creates enough room for my ring finger to clamp the mouse at the bottom.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *howzz1854*
> 
> the problem is the width of the lip is no longer the same. if you measure where the right button ends to the edge of the lip, it is now half the size. so there's not enough space to rest your ring finger. if you put your ring finger on top, it'll either end up on the right click button, which for me accidentally triggers the right button, or hanging on the sharp edge of the lip. and for me, if you tug your ring finger under neath the ridge, you're just cramping your ring finger with the pinky causing me discomfort.
> 
> if you look at the mouse directly from the front, in comparison to the classic logitech MX518 design, the slope of the lip is now less steep, and more gradual.
> 
> i have no problem holding a G100 or any ambidextrous mouse because they all have the similar design of right side ridge in a way that they all pretty much meant to have your ring finger tucked under neath, and most ambidextrous mice have plenty of room at the bottom for that, and pretty much no room for it on top. but this new design of logitech is an awckward in-between for me. it's not enough room on top to rest your ring finger, if you do, the ring finger is resting on the right button itself, and you accidentally click the right button with your ring finger. but there's not enough room at the bottom as well. the only way this mouse will ever be comfortable for me is if i take my dremel and shave down the ridge to a point that creates enough room for my ring finger to clamp the mouse at the bottom.


I'm gonna be using the G502 for the next year or two. I really haven't found a better shaped mouse, and I don't wanna buy an other mouse just to adjust to a new one or be uncomfortable with it, which is what happened with the G402 sadly. If the right side of the G402 was like the G502, or maybe even more space with no ridge at all, it would be perfect.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *howzz1854*
> 
> the problem is the width of the lip is no longer the same. if you measure where the right button ends to the edge of the lip, it is now half the size. so there's not enough space to rest your ring finger. if you put your ring finger on top, it'll either end up on the right click button, which for me accidentally triggers the right button, or hanging on the sharp edge of the lip. and for me, if you tug your ring finger under neath the ridge, you're just cramping your ring finger with the pinky causing me discomfort.
> Ble
> if you look at the mouse directly from the front, in comparison to the classic logitech MX518 design, the slope of the lip is now less steep, and more gradual.
> 
> i have no problem holding a G100 or any ambidextrous mouse because they all have the similar design of right side ridge in a way that they all pretty much meant to have your ring finger tucked under neath, and most ambidextrous mice have plenty of room at the bottom for that, and pretty much no room for it on top. but this new design of logitech is an awckward in-between for me. it's not enough room on top to rest your ring finger, if you do, the ring finger is resting on the right button itself, and you accidentally click the right button with your ring finger. but there's not enough room at the bottom as well. the only way this mouse will ever be comfortable for me is if i take my dremel and shave down the ridge to a point that creates enough room for my ring finger to clamp the mouse at the bottom.


I could put my ring finger on the ridge without any problem of misclick. IMO it's better than g400s, the way it shape make me difficult to apply force on g400s and lift it.

The problem is the ca


----------



## nocebo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> @CPate
> 
> Can you tell us how many maximum fps the sensor does?


I would also want to know this


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> They really dropped the ball with this cord
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I thought I could get used to it but it's still really bad. I don't understand the choice to use a cable like this. Damn, feels like every mouse nowadays has at least one thing majorly wrong with it.


The G100s cord felt like fishing line used to catch sharks or tow a car with. I wonder if it's better or worse than that.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> The G100s cord felt like fishing line used to catch sharks or tow a car with. I wonder if it's better or worse than that.


...I already made a test with videos?


----------



## doomleika

I'll just leave it here. I think some vein in my brain just poped.


----------



## turnschuh

Hahaha


----------



## oxidized

ahahah f m l i'm done with logitech


----------



## Gilles3000




----------



## Axaion

Wow, just wow.

hahaaha

edit here:

It strikes me as hilarious as hell that Logitech still claims this is an FPS mouse, advertised by MOBA players LOL

Logitech, Oh logitech, I think even less of you now than you do of your own customers.


----------



## detto87

r u f-in kidding me? ....


----------



## L4dd

It beats those Intel commercials...


----------



## Derp

Yeah..... that was terrible. The G502 video where the weights were used as throwing stars was equally awful. Does any other peripheral company make stupid videos like this? I haven't seen any.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Yeah..... that was terrible. The G502 weights used as throwing stars was also equally awful.


To be fair, that's probably what most 502 owners did with theirs as well.


----------



## Nivity

Logitech have been going more and more razer style but even worse.

Sad to see but since It brings them money ofc stupid videos like this will keep comming all the time.


----------



## metal571

Dumb video, but I found the mouse excellent actually. I still haven't edited though I have shot my review already. It'll come soon.


----------



## Arc0s

After playing with the mouse for the last couple of days, I might go back to the rival. I found the right side to be a bit uncomfortable for my grip (palm/claw) suprisingly the "sniper" button didn't get in the way. I would recommend this mouse to anyone that likes the G400.

Next mouse on my list is the mionix castor when it releases, hopefuly we get some reviews by OCN members soon.


----------



## Ickz

Does the cord get more flexible over time? This is the first time a cord has given me any issues on a mouse.


----------



## JustinSane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ickz*
> 
> Does the cord get more flexible over time? This is the first time a cord has given me any issues on a mouse.


I feel the same way. Never had a cord like this. I have however managed to bend it in a way that it's not as big a deal as it was. It's sort of in an "S" shape with part of it tucked under my PC. Maybe use a book or something to hold down part of it. With how stiff the cord is, it wants to drag about 20% of the cord when you move the mouse still. Which doesn't seem like it would add a lot of weight to it but it definitely does. If the mouse weighs 144 with cable, and if 20% of the cable is being dragged with the mouse when you move it, the mouse weighs more like 115-120g. I'm guessing they made the cable like this so people don't end up snapping it when they try to move it as fast as they can for the IPS meter.

I have gotten used to it though.


----------



## justyourimage

How much different is the thumb-rest to the G502 ?

The thumb-rest of the G502 is to big for me and I can't feel the mousepad enought even thought the overall shape is pretty nice for my grip


----------



## dontspamme

Hey Ino,

In regard to sheer responsiveness (smoothing/input lag) how does the G402 sensor compare to that of the G502 sensor, in your experience?
Same?

Also, how does it compare to that of the new Zowie FK1?

Thanks.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> Hey Ino,
> 
> In regard to sheer responsiveness (smoothing/input lag) how does the G402 sensor compare to that of the G502 sensor, in your experience?
> Same?
> 
> Also, how does it compare to that of the new Zowie FK1?
> 
> Thanks.


While I would love to come up with a way to differentiate the level of responsiveness on them I simply can't do that without going for "feeling" of the cursor. They are all fine to me and seem to be highly responsive. There is no notable delay. The G502 felt best, but I can't explain why. Both G402 and FK1 feel great too. To me there is no clear loser there.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> While I would love to come up with a way to differentiate the level of responsiveness on them I simply can't do that without going for "feeling" of the cursor. They are all fine to me and seem to be highly responsive. There is no notable delay. The G502 felt best, but I can't explain why. Both G402 and FK1 feel great too. To me there is no clear loser there.


Cheers. Makes sense.









Sticking to my G502 for a bit longer, then.


----------



## ///M3TZ

Just curious if anyone has seen the G402 on best buy shelves yet. After several years my G400 cord finally started to fail so I'd love to go pick one up without waiting for shipping.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> While I would love to come up with a way to differentiate the level of responsiveness on them I simply can't do that without going for "feeling" of the cursor. They are all fine to me and seem to be highly responsive. There is no notable delay. The G502 felt best, but I can't explain why. Both G402 and FK1 feel great too. To me there is no clear loser there.


I've used G502 and the Avior 7000, which should be the same sensor as FK1, and the Avior feels dramatically worse than the G502, as I described it in this thread as "swamp cursor" :

http://www.overclock.net/t/1511145/mionix-avior-7000-has-swamp-cursor

I don't know how you can call the FK1 acceptable unless it functions vastly different than the Avior 7000 does. The FK1 seems to top out at 3200 DPI vs 7000 DPI on Avior, so I guess it's possible Zowiee has a firmware with less post processing and smoothing. I also don't see any mention of ARM processor on the FK1, which probably also adds nothing but negatives on the Avior.


----------



## TriviumKM

I have both the Avior 7000 and the FK1. The FK1 feels more raw and more responsive than my Avior.

Edit: I'm not saying that the Avior feels _bad_, only that my FK1 feels more raw.


----------



## DivineDark

In don't know what you guys are going on about... That video was glorious. Pure art. I'm actually ordering a couple g402's right now because of it.

FASTEST MOUSE EEEEEVVVVEEEERRRRR!!!!


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> In don't know what you guys are going on about... That video was glorious. Pure art. I'm actually ordering a couple g402's right now because of it.
> 
> FASTEST MOUSE EEEEEVVVVEEEERRRRR!!!!


Not sure you are seriuos or...


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> I've used G502 and the Avior 7000, which should be the same sensor as FK1, and the Avior feels dramatically worse than the G502, as I described it in this thread as "swamp cursor" :
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1511145/mionix-avior-7000-has-swamp-cursor
> 
> I don't know how you can call the FK1 acceptable unless it functions vastly different than the Avior 7000 does. The FK1 seems to top out at 3200 DPI vs 7000 DPI on Avior, so I guess it's possible Zowiee has a firmware with less post processing and smoothing. I also don't see any mention of ARM processor on the FK1, which probably also adds nothing but negatives on the Avior.


Several options:

1) I'm not as critical about "smoothing" as you are
2) The FK1 actually feels different (at least to the NAOS 7000, I never had the Avior)
3) It's all placebo

Pick your choice, although I'd say all three apply in a way.
The FK1 has the same controller as the older Zowies had, so not the same as the other 3310 mice.

Also the cursor feeling "worse" than the G502 applies to every mouse I know, but with the little difference there is shape/weight becomes a much larger influence to me than the sensor. I could play with the G402, Rival, NAOS, FK1, G502 without any of the sensor performance limiting me, so I chose the one with the best shape/weight for me. And that's the FK1.


----------



## oxidized

quck OT question guys, on windows 8.1 should i use any acceleration fix or ?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Not sure you are seriuos or...


It was a joke. I have very little interest in mouse that's physically larger than the G502.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> It was a joke. I have very little interest in mouse that's physically larger than the G502.


It's not.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oxidized*
> 
> quck OT question guys, on windows 8.1 should i use any acceleration fix or ?


Absolutely no reason not to, it wont have any negative impact, and will fix it for those few games where you need it.


----------



## oxidized

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Absolutely no reason not to, it wont have any negative impact, and will fix it for those few games where you need it.


ok anything you suggest in particular?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It's not.


In the comp pics it looks to be about a quarter inch longer than the G502. Maybe not taller, but looks longer.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> In the comp pics it looks to be about a quarter inch longer than the G502. Maybe not taller, but looks longer.


Way lighter though.


----------



## oxidized

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> In the comp pics it looks to be about a quarter inch longer than the G502. Maybe not taller, but looks longer.


you said it's larger, it's not larger, it's longer but the 502 is wider


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oxidized*
> 
> you said it's larger, it's not larger, it's longer but the 502 is wider


Wide doesn't bother me. I guess I'll pick my words better next time.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oxidized*
> 
> ok anything you suggest in particular?


Just install mousefix like normal, really - then forget about it


----------



## detto87

Or just disable mouse acceleration in Windows and enable raw input in-game if available.


----------



## DivineDark

I would just like to go back and bring notice to the fact that my last post broke down to "I prefer width over length". *giggity*


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Or just disable mouse acceleration in Windows and enable raw input in-game if available.


That particular fix is for very old games that had to work around some weird bug in the old Windows version they were programmed for which breaks things (older than Windows XP).


----------



## DivineDark

Linus Tech Tips did a review of the G402. They used a mechanical arm to test the acceleration of the device. It came up "perfect". Not that it really matters, but it was nice to see someone actually use an arm to test.


----------



## Phos

I'm curious if the accelerometer ever produces pseudo lift off distance problems, has anyone noticed the mouse tracking above the pad, for example during a quick re-centering?


----------



## HiTechPixel

This'll be the mouse I switch to from Avior 7000 as long as I can turn off all buttons but MOUSE1, MOUSE2 AND MOUSE3 (LEFT MOUSE BUTTON, RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON AND MIDDLE MOUSE BUTTON (SCROLLWHEEL))


----------



## ramraze

The G402 without a sniper button, for all the naysayers out there.
Wasn't that hard to do, feels good and results in a few grams lighter mouse = )

Can cover up with tape if needed.

First image is my own mouse:


Second image (kudos to smog11 for the pcb shot) shows how to do it. It's quite easy to do, regardless of the length of the guide







:


ˇ
First remove the feet, then unscrew the screws on the bottom to separate the top shell.
Once you have access to the top shell, then

1) unscrew screw
2) unscrew screw
3) unscrew screw (the actual screw for the sniper button)
4) pull the side button rack(the piece which holds all the 3 side buttons) gently upwards off the screw-holders. Then slide the sniper button off it's screw-holder and push it out of its "cave" from the outside.
5) Make sure on the inside of the side button rack, the latch goes into place underneath the top screw, otherwise the 2 side-buttons will feel out of place.

Screw everything back and you're done. If you have a proper small electrical screw driver, it will take 15-30 mins tops.


----------



## woll3

For the record, ramraze needed one hour.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> Linus Tech Tips did a review of the G402. They used a mechanical arm to test the acceleration of the device. It came up "perfect". Not that it really matters, but it was nice to see someone actually use an arm to test.


Since when did Linus stop doing mouse reviews equating astronomical DPI to quality.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Since when did Linus stop doing mouse reviews equating astronomical DPI to quality.


This wasn't Linus. It was one of the other guys on the site. He also thanked Logitech for removing DPI from the box almost entirely and focusing on real performance metrics.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> This wasn't Linus. It was one of the other guys on the site. He also thanked Logitech for removing DPI from the box almost entirely and focusing on real performance metrics.


Figured Linus himself would never be technical enough to do something like that but maybe one of his assistants would


----------



## JustinSane

I just got a G100s I ordered and wow dude - this mouse would be so perfect if it had thumb buttons. Shape and weight are so nice. I may use it over my G402 lol. Please Logitech, give us a G100s with thumb buttons. I would be soooo happy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> The G100s cord felt like fishing line used to catch sharks or tow a car with. I wonder if it's better or worse than that.


The G402 cord is way worse than the G100s.


----------



## detto87

OMG how could the G402 cord be even worse than G100S' cord?









I will see tomorrow when the G402 arrives. I hope you're not right.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JustinSane*
> 
> Please Logitech, give us a G100s with thumb buttons. I would be soooo happy.


Seconded. What I fear though is what someone else said in the Kinzu v3 thread...the G100s is Logitech's "consumer tier" gaming mouse much like SS with the Kinzu. So from that standpoint "advanced" (sarcasm) features such as side-buttons (and sarcasm aside, the latest and greatest sensors) are reserved for the higher tiers. If Logitech is paying attention, a potential G102 with side-buttons and an updated sensor would be a serious game changer regardless of price. But please, don't change the shape too much, it's perfect.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> The G402 without a sniper button, for all the naysayers out there.
> Wasn't that hard to do, feels good and results in a few grams lighter mouse = )
> 
> Can cover up with tape if needed.
> 
> First image is my own mouse:
> 
> 
> Second image (kudos to smog11 for the pcb shot) shows how to do it. It's quite easy to do, regardless of the length of the guide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :
> 
> 
> ˇ
> First remove the feet, then unscrew the screws on the bottom to separate the top shell.
> Once you have access to the top shell, then
> 
> 1) unscrew screw
> 2) unscrew screw
> 3) unscrew screw (the actual screw for the sniper button)
> 4) pull the side button rack(the piece which holds all the 3 side buttons) gently upwards off the screw-holders. Then slide the sniper button off it's screw-holder and push it out of its "cave" from the outside.
> 5) Make sure on the inside of the side button rack, the latch goes into place underneath the top screw, otherwise the 2 side-buttons will feel out of place.
> 
> Screw everything back and you're done. If you have a proper small electrical screw driver, it will take 15-30 mins tops.


Hmmm, if you're handy enough for it you could sand down the button till it's flush and then super glue it in place for a better finish.


----------



## Mych

G3 (style) with G502's sensor would indeed be the dream, but I'd be pretty content with G3 and G100s/G402 combination, too.

Perhaps should learn to mod.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mych*
> 
> G3 (style) with G502's sensor would indeed be the dream, but I'd be pretty content with G3 and G100s/G402 combination, too.
> 
> Perhaps should learn to mod.


If you've ever taken apart a G400, you would need serious balls to try to mod most of these Logitech mice. There's just about nothing clean and symmetrical in there. Everything is just flying all over the place in an asymmetrical nightmare like an HR Geiger painting.


----------



## Mych

Tough no doubt, might even affect the performance, I'd probably mostly break stuff.

However, Thunderbringer here seems to have accomplished miracles: http://www.overclock.net/t/1401294/the-random-mouse-thread/30

Almost too good to be true.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> If you've ever taken apart a G400, you would need serious balls to try to mod most of these Logitech mice. There's just about nothing clean and symmetrical in there. Everything is just flying all over the place in an asymmetrical nightmare like an HR Geiger painting.


G400 is a mess but not undoable, G502 somewhat simpler because of that sensor sub PCB.

I've been looking a lot at the G502 shell, I don't think I'd even need to transplant it to get something good out of it. Shave down the bottom of the "forward" button, cut out the extra material that's there for the weight tray, shave down the part of the thumb rest that's bothersome, grind out a pinky well, seems pretty doable.

Also appears to have a lot of screws in it for some reason, think they can be removed and replaced with a bit of super glue if they're just there to hold the shell together.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mych*
> 
> Thunderbringer here seems to have accomplished miracles: http://www.overclock.net/t/1401294/the-random-mouse-thread/30
> 
> Almost too good to be true.


I didn't realize wizards posted here.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Does the G402 have on-board memory and does the Fusion Engine work with on-board memory or will I have to keep the software installed at all times to use it?


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Does the G402 have on-board memory and does the Fusion Engine work with on-board memory or will I have to keep the software installed at all times to use it?


The fusion engine is always running. The part of the software where you can turn it off, that's just a toy so that you can experiment with it a little if you want. Things are back to normal the moment you close that window.

You have a single profile that's saved in the mouse and works without software.

A lot of the features in the software are actually done by the mouse itself. It seems the software just programs stuff into the mouse hardware. If you for example put keyboard shortcuts onto some of those eight buttons the mouse has, the mouse will be able to send those key presses to the PC without needing the software. It shows up to the PC as both a keyboard and mouse device and that's how it manages to do this.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> The fusion engine is always running. The part of the software where you can turn it off, that's just a toy so that you can experiment with it a little if you want. Things are back to normal the moment you close that window.
> 
> You have a single profile that's saved in the mouse and works without software.
> 
> A lot of the features in the software are actually done by the mouse itself. It seems the software just programs stuff into the mouse hardware. If you for example put keyboard shortcuts onto some of those eight buttons the mouse has, the mouse will be able to send those key presses to the PC without needing the software. It shows up to the PC as both a keyboard and mouse device and that's how it manages to do this.


Always running with and/or without the software installed?

If that is the case then that's pretty sweet. I'd only need to install the software, unbind all buttons but MOUSE1, MOUSE2 and MOUSE3,save to on-board memory and then uninstall it.


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Always running with ... software installed ...


Seriously - the only manufacturer that 's doing such a thing nowadays is Razer.

Even the cheapest Gamer-Mice come with On-Board Memory nowadays (and it 's good that it 's that way).
Razer needs to save $0.10 on production costs for each mice so they got rid of it (almost).

(That 's also why the price of most of them has doubled).


----------



## blackmesatech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Always running with and/or without the software installed?


If you turn off the Fusion Engine in the software it stays off even when you close the windows or uninstall the software.

The Logitech software is pretty clean as far as mouse software goes. You can install it to setup the mouse however you want and then remove it right after.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blackmesatech*
> 
> If you turn off the Fusion Engine in the software it stays off even when you close the windows or uninstall the software.
> 
> The Logitech software is pretty clean as far as mouse software goes. You can install it to setup the mouse however you want and then remove it right after.


Sounds good! I'll get the mouse then.


----------



## detto87

I just played the first time with a G402.

Sensor feels great, very responsive and accurate. Better than my FK1 3310.
The clicks are nice and responsive as well. I immediately noticed those latency reductions in-game compared to my FK1.

Shape is bad. I cannot really grip if comfortably. Neither claw or palm. A hybrid kinda works, but I always feel the useless sniper button under my thumb.
I don't have problems with the cable as I use my own cable holder.

But what really makes this mouse a bummer is the high LOD.
I feel like I'm drunk when I'm playing with the G402 because on every lift up of the mouse the in-game view rotates/moves a bit/reacts.

They really should put the G502 sensor in a G100s shape and make some money.


----------



## ChevChelios

which mat are you using ? maybe a hard mat is increasing LOD

but the sniper btn pretty much breaks the G402 for me

I really wanted to try it, but after getting the amazing XTD Optical, I really can't go back to having a sniper btn in the way, so the only mouse now that I could try buying in hopes that it can match/exceed XTD-O for me is the Mionix Caster .. whenever it comes out .. and assuming they add some software features that I like having on the Roccat & Logitech mice


----------



## detto87

Artisan Hien Soft. It's a cloth pad.


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> If you've ever taken apart a G400, you would need serious balls to try to mod most of these Logitech mice. There's just about nothing clean and symmetrical in there. Everything is just flying all over the place in an asymmetrical nightmare like an HR Geiger painting.


Yes this is excatly what I felt when I butchered my first Logitech Performance Mice just recently for learning purposes.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Since when did Linus stop doing mouse reviews equating astronomical DPI to quality.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mych*
> 
> G3 (style) with G502's sensor would indeed be the dream, but I'd be pretty content with G3 and G100s/G402 combination, too.
> 
> Perhaps should learn to mod.


Don't forget peeps - there 's still the G302 to come.

http://www.trademarkia.com/g302-daedalus-prime-86317080.html

So one can hope.


----------



## Aventadoor

I bought g402 today, so far so good.
Dislike the sniper button, else I like it very much.

Is the fusion engine always on, or is off when I choose "off" in the speed test?

I read that the latest revision of G100s got same sensor as G402, just no fusion engine, is this true?


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> I bought g402 today, so far so good.
> Dislike the sniper button, else I like it very much.
> 
> Is the fusion engine always on, or is off when I choose "off" in the speed test?
> 
> I read that the latest revision of G100s got same sensor as G402, just no fusion engine, is this true?


Its always on except when in the program and you set it to off, the second you leave that window, its back on.

Its the same sensor with a Gyroscope.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> I bought g402 today, so far so good.
> Dislike the sniper button, else I like it very much.
> 
> Is the fusion engine always on, or is off when I choose "off" in the speed test?
> 
> I read that the latest revision of G100s got same sensor as G402, just no fusion engine, is this true?


How do you deal with the right side of the mouse, do you palm?


----------



## Aventadoor

Right side of the mice is no problem. I palmish yeah.
If the sniper button was gone and the dpi buttons aswell it would be a excellent mice.
Althought it doesnt happen often, I did accidently hit the dpi buttons while playing CSGO.
If I fully palm the mice, I hit the sniper button.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Right side of the mice is no problem. I palmish yeah.
> If the sniper button was gone and the dpi buttons aswell it would be a excellent mice.
> Althought it doesnt happen often, I did accidently hit the dpi buttons while playing CSGO.
> If I fully palm the mice, I hit the sniper button.


Do you have your ringfinger under, or on the lip?


----------



## Aventadoor

Jeg har ring-fingeren på kanten.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Jeg har ring-fingeren på kanten.


Ah, it gets problematic when you put it under and palm because of the sharp edge (IMO). Norsk btw?


----------



## Aventadoor

Jeg er norsk ja







Som nevnt er jeg fornøyd så langt. Den kunne vært bedre selvfølgelig, men man får vel aldri det man ønsker... Det positive legger opp for det negative.

Positive :
Very comfy
Good grip
Low enough weight
Cant say any negativ about sensor

Negative :
Could be lighterr
Attracts dust like crazy
Buttons for CoD and boyfriend players (sniper & dpi buttons)
Mouse button 1&2 are very ez to press, id personally like a litte more resistence. Hoteller, im used to Fk1


----------



## ronal

How does the shape of the G402 compare to the G502, because I happened to be at Bestbuy where they had the G502 on display and it felt great in my hand (I could actually claw grip is with a problem).


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> Ah, it gets problematic when you put it under and palm because of the sharp edge (IMO). Norsk btw?


I used sandpaper to entirely remove the lip overhang on the G400 and the mouse surface didn't even feel scratchy or anything. Has anyone tried sandpaper on G402 yet? It would probably work fine.


----------



## Maximillion

It's pretty wild that people have to physically alter their mice to such degrees. It took awhile, but I'm glad I've found form-factors that agree with my hand and grip-style out of the box.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> I used sandpaper to entirely remove the lip overhang on the G400 and the mouse surface didn't even feel scratchy or anything. Has anyone tried sandpaper on G402 yet? It would probably work fine.


I Dremeled down the right side of my 502 a bit and I think it improved the surface quality. I imagine the 402 is much the same.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> I used sandpaper to entirely remove the lip overhang on the G400 and the mouse surface didn't even feel scratchy or anything. Has anyone tried sandpaper on G402 yet? It would probably work fine.


Meh, I'll rather just use the G502. I prefer the scroll wheel, side buttons, extra button behind the wheel, shape in general etc. Only thing I like better on the G402 is the weight, but I've gotten used to the G502 weight now anyway.

*EDIT:*

Just sandpapered down the right edge on the G402. It's way smoother now. Will post pics soon, and tell if it improved it for me.

*EDIT 2:*

Still sucks for my grip







. Sticking with the G502 until the Mionix Castor mouse comes out.


----------



## justyourimage

Wow - just recieved my G402 - it 's way better then the G502 in terms of overall shape, look and feel for me. 1040/1120 [email protected] feels dead accurate as well. More snappier then the Rival. It 's just wow. The quality as well is just great - the Mousefeet are way better then the ones on the G502 (at least that 's what I feel about them). There 's still a bit of a thumb-rest here which I should hate but it 's not as spread out as on the G502. Heck I'm almost using Palm-Grip thought being used to Palm/Claw-Grip more without accuracy decreases. The weight is perfect as well. The cable is not braided (won't get scuffed over the time) and pretty thick but in the same time flexible.

I'll have to do some performance testing but playing BF4 CTE it was great for long range Counter-Sniping which means a bit since you really need to be accurate there to not miss your hits since the TTK increase went trough. Thought I can't check the accuracy stats on CTE right now for rounds for some reason and the overall stats mean nothing since they're really f*cked up there.

Anyway I think I'll really keep that one.










Edit:

Enotus Mouse Tests also gives better results compared to the Rival - 99.4% Precision (against 96~% of the Rival), spot accurate DPI value, Smoothness < 8% ... seems to fit my initial feelings of the better accuracy and performance against the Rival.

Edit 2:

Scroll-Wheel and Mouse-Clicks are also sounding better in my opinion


----------



## metal571

Yeah the G402 is a great mouse for FPSers, but for some reason my brain really likes both sides of the mouse to be identical in feel for best aim, so I'm sticking with the Avior. I think my next big Amazon purchase will be a combo of the FK1 and a pair of Beyer DT880s...


----------



## ChevChelios

if only this mouse did not have the sniper btn ....


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> if only this mouse did not have the sniper btn ....


My thumb stops perfectly before the sniper-button just that it slightly touches it - meaning I'm never triggering it accidently.









Sorry that it doesn't work for you. You might try the G502 if you didn't already - it 's made for bigger hands in my opinion and the Sniper-Button is even a bit more forward there as far as I remember.


----------



## TK421

Any word for incoming firmware fix on Y axis?


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Yeah the G402 is a great mouse for FPSers, but for some reason my brain really likes both sides of the mouse to be identical in feel for best aim, so I'm sticking with the Avior. I think my next big Amazon purchase will be a combo of the FK1 and a pair of Beyer DT880s...


Pssst, just sideinfo, but if you're looking for a glass clear, neutral accurate sound that doesn't hide anything from you in terms of details and clarity, then pick up the SRH940 by Shure. I had 770,880,990 by Beyer, Philips X1, SRH440, 840, 940, 1540, 1840, AKG702, .. and some I forgot just now. 940 beats them all. Some reviewer compared the clarity and detail to that of the Sennheiser HD800.

enough 2c

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on some pro players using the G100s or some other Logitech mouse for now. As long as they don't keep it as their main it's just a testing example.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Pssst, just sideinfo, but if you're looking for a glass clear, neutral accurate sound that doesn't hide anything from you in terms of details and clarity, then pick up the SRH940 by Shure. I had 770,880,990 by Beyer, Philips X1, SRH440, 840, 940, 1540, 1840, AKG702, .. and some I forgot just now. 940 beats them all. Some reviewer compared the clarity and detail to that of the Sennheiser HD800.
> 
> enough 2c
> 
> I wouldn't put too much emphasis on some pro players using the G100s or some other Logitech mouse for now. As long as they don't keep it as their main it's just a testing example.


The innerfidelity FR looks very similar to the 440 which I currently have, and I find too bright...but I've thought about the 940 a couple times


----------



## detto87

940 adds more fundament and bass. The 440 was definitely too bright and hollow to me. Sometimes sounded like an old kitchen radio. ;D 940 is closed which alone makes a nice difference.


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> but I've thought about the 940 a couple times


Same here (Shure 940). How's the build quality? To bad the shape looks so unsexy - not that it matters that much as sound is way important but yea. At least to my taste, but let 's say there are worse cans out there (in terms of looks) ...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I wouldn't put too much emphasis on some pro players using the G100s or some other Logitech mouse for now. As long as they don't keep it as their main it's just a testing example.


In the end it should fit your taste and playstyle so I doesn't matter at all. Just helps making the initial decision of testing one I'd say.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChevChelios*
> 
> if only this mouse did not have the sniper btn ....


It's interesting how virtually every single person told them the sniper button was awful on G502 and should be removed but they kept it on the next mouse anyway.....

Just who are the test subjects for these mice? The other interesting fact, if you have easily accessible profile change or DPI up/down buttons, which generally most gaming mice have, there's absolutely no need for a sniper button in the first place.


----------



## Aventadoor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> It's interesting how virtually every single person told them the sniper button was awful on G502 and should be removed but they kept it on the next mouse anyway.....
> 
> Just who are the test subjects for these mice? The other interesting fact, if you have easily accessible profile change or DPI up/down buttons, which generally most gaming mice have, there's absolutely no need for a sniper button in the first place.


But bro, its much cooler when u have to press and hold the sniper button in order to change dpi when u snipe








*jk


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> But bro, its much cooler when u have to press and hold the sniper button in order to change dpi when u snipe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *jk


"...and break your fingers in the process" - is what you forgot.


----------



## slvr

G402 has same scroll wheel as G100s/G400s ?


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *slvr*
> 
> G402 has same scroll wheel as G100s/G400s ?


From the look of it - not - I don't have a G100s/G400s thought.
The feel & function is pretty good though - nothing to complain about.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *slvr*
> 
> G402 has same scroll wheel as G100s/G400s ?


No, I actually prefer the scrolls on the G400s scroll wheel, but the middle click and look of the wheel on the G402 is much better.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justyourimage*
> 
> Same here (Shure 940). How's the build quality? To bad the shape looks so unsexy - not that it matters that much as sound is way important but yea. At least to my taste, but let 's say there are worse cans out there (in terms of looks) ...


Had mine for like a year now, wear it everyday, sometimes even in bed. Super comfy. No problems with build quality as of yet.
I have 2 backups of it though.







Because if you find your preferred sound signature then there isn't much that might come out in the future that will be even better. Sound doesn't really "improve" if you know what I mean.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justyourimage*
> 
> In the end it should fit your taste and playstyle so I doesn't matter at all. Just helps making the initial decision of testing one I'd say.


Yeah, it just seems that many people are now anxious to go for Logitech mice. Combined with the button lag thread that also prefers the G-series mice I can kinda understand.
But what really matters between all those recent top mice is no doubt the shape/size/weight. G100S and G402 are without a doubt very responsive but I cannot play with them at a good level. THe G100S is too small and/or light and I cannot move it consistently at slow and fast speeds. My aiming feels not precise though the sensor is. The G402 is shaped too weird and I couldn't grip it in a steady but still comfortable way, combined with the high LOD I had a really bad drunken experience in-game because the crosshair always moved/jumped when repositioning the mouse.


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Had mine for like a year now, wear it everyday, sometimes even in bed. Super comfy. No problems with build quality as of yet.
> I have 2 backups of it though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because if you find your preferred sound signature then there isn't much that might come out in the future that will be even better. Sound doesn't really "improve" if you know what I mean.


I know.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> The G402 is shaped too weird and I couldn't grip it in a steady but still comfortable way, combined with the high LOD I had a really bad drunken experience in-game because the crosshair always moved/jumped when repositioning the mouse.


I agree. I'm so lucky that the G402 fits my hand and fingers perfectly - I can use it in 3 different gripstyles without pain. They should have gone back to their MX5xx shape or improved towards the direction of something like the FK1/Savu/IE3.0 which fits many people 's hand the best (more or less). The worst of them is the G502 - its an aboslute ergonomical fail in terms of satisfing a broad range of gamers - especially since it 's such a perfect Sensor that normally would've been important in FPS games yet the mice weights way to much and has those monsterous thumb- and pinky-finger rests which makes many grip-styles (including mine - I use my thumb + ring + pinky for stopping my mice when doing fast movements to get better control) simply unusable in favor of a relaxed browsing mode resting your thumb + pinky on the mouse - which is fine in itself but not to that extend - shutting a broad (?) range of gamers that are looking for accuracy - which is stupid when paired with such a sensor.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justyourimage*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I'm so lucky that the G402 fits my hand and fingers perfectly - I can use it in 3 different gripstyles without pain. They should have gone back to their MX5xx shape or improved towards the direction of something like the FK1/Savu/IE3.0 which fits many people 's hand the best (more or less). The worst of them is the G502 - its an aboslute ergonomical fail in terms of satisfing a broad range of gamers - especially since it 's such a perfect Sensor that normally would've been important in FPS games yet the mice weights way to much and has those monsterous thumb- and pinky-finger rests which makes many grip-styles (including mine - I use my thumb + ring + pinky for stopping my mice when doing fast movements to get better control) simply unusable in favor of a relaxed browsing mode resting your thumb + pinky on the mouse - which is fine in itself but not to that extend - shutting a broad (?) range of gamers that are looking for accuracy - which is stupid when paired with such a sensor.


The G502 fits my hand and fingers perfectly. The G402 however, is a nightmare. Different gamers have different needs. I think the G502 satisfies the mainstream market. I don't consider myself "mainstream", but I really like the shape of the G502 actually, the weight is not too bad either.


----------



## metal571

Here it is, my video review where I go into detail talking about the G402.


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maxvons*
> 
> I think the G502 satisfies the mainstream market


Has the best and most accurate sensor which is limited to this model. Yea ... great! Because everyone needs an 100% accurate sensor in MMoRPGs or Flight Simulator. If you go by that logic the G402 and G10x should get the same sensor as well ... many FPS gamers are not looking for 1515 features and ergonomic rests but sheer performance and versatility (in minimalism). Other types of gamers especially the "mainstream" market are rarely looking for an 101% pefect sensor. Different tastes - different choi... no says Logitech.

Anyway not much complaining the sensor in the G402 isn't that bad - I just don't get that logic-tech. It 's complaining on a high level but maybe the G302 gets the same sensor and is ambidextrous but I doubt it. Speaking about it - I play against ESL Players (RDS @ BF3/BF4) daily and I'm looking for the last % I can add to improve my performance ^^ ...


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justyourimage*
> 
> Has the best and most accurate sensor which is limited to this model. Yea ... great! Because everyone needs an 100% accurate sensor in MMoRPGs or Flight Simulator. If you go by that logic the G402 and G10x should get the same sensor as well ... many FPS gamers are not looking for 1515 features and ergonomic rests but sheer performance and versatility (in minimalism). Other types of gamers especially the "mainstream" market are rarely looking for an 101% pefect sensor. Different tastes - different choi... no says Logitech.
> 
> Anyway not much complaining the sensor in the G402 isn't that bad - I just don't get that logic-tech. It 's complaining on a high level but maybe the G302 gets the same sensor and is ambidextrous but I doubt it. Speaking about it - I play against ESL Players (RDS @ BF3/BF4) daily and I'm looking for the last % I can add to improve my performance ^^ ...


Yeah, but the mouse itself still does what most gamers want it to do. Enough buttons, "lotzz of dpi", looks good, feels good etc.


----------



## Phos

Ergonomic ally the G502 and 402 look pretty similar to me, mostly different thumb buttons, at least as I'm concerned. On the right side they're both concave where I need them to be convex. I look for mice where the widest spot on the pinky side is about as far up as the thumb buttons. That's probably the biggest reason for my liking the spawn.


----------



## duhizy

Anyone know when g402 ships to stores? They only allow preorders.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Here it is, my video review where I go into detail talking about the G402.


Good stuff. Your reviews are always informative and concise. You didn't mention it directly in the review but how does this mouse matchup to your beloved Avior? I'd assume the Avior is still your daily driver.

Overall, the G402 seems like a great mouse but outside of the ridiculous tracking ability (which, lets be honest here, would provide little if any in-game improvement compared to any 3310 mouse for 99% of gamers) it doesn't seem to offer much else.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> Anyone know when g402 ships to stores? They only allow preorders.


I've talked to reps from both Logitech and Best Buy, neither has any idea.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> ridiculous tracking ability (which, lets be honest here, would provide little if any in-game improvement compared to any 3310 mouse for 99% of gamers)


You can say 100%. If someone says they need more tracking speed than the 3310 can provide then I feel comfortable calling them a liar.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> You can say 100%. If someone says they need more tracking speed than the 3310 can provide then I feel comfortable calling them a liar.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Good stuff. Your reviews are always informative and concise. You didn't mention it directly in the review but how does this mouse matchup to your beloved Avior? I'd assume the Avior is still your daily driver.
> 
> Overall, the G402 seems like a great mouse but outside of the ridiculous tracking ability (which, lets be honest here, would provide little if any in-game improvement compared to any 3310 mouse for 99% of gamers) it doesn't seem to offer much else.


Yeah honestly this sensor and my Avior feel identical in game. Very responsive and very high PCS on both. My main point I tried to make was that for some reason my hands now really like ambidextrous mice and whenever the right side is different in shape than the left, my hand just doesn't really feel as "at home." That is probably the only reason holding me back from using this as a daily driver. I also prefer the slightly firmer clicks on the Avior switches, probably due to the shell. I am a huge fan of the Huano feel and plan to purchase an FK1 in the near future for that reason. I have a serious feeling the FK1 has what it takes to sway me from the Avior, or at least give me an equivalent if not even better feel in-game due to the weight alone. I'm not sure if the click latency will have an effect on me though because I definitely feel like that could hurt me in a very close head-on gunfight.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Here it is, my video review where I go into detail talking about the G402.


Nice video review!
+rep

Reviews like yours are the complete opposite of those usual silly unboxing "review" videos of mice on youtube. You know, that kind where the "reviewer" doesnt even plug the mouse into the pc before and just presses the buttons a little and wouldnt have a clue what hes talking about anyways other than maybe how the LEDs work...


----------



## Aventadoor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Yeah honestly this sensor and my Avior feel identical in game. Very responsive and very high PCS on both. My main point I tried to make was that for some reason my hands now really like ambidextrous mice and whenever the right side is different in shape than the left, my hand just doesn't really feel as "at home." That is probably the only reason holding me back from using this as a daily driver. I also prefer the slightly firmer clicks on the Avior switches, probably due to the shell. I am a huge fan of the Huano feel and plan to purchase an FK1 in the near future for that reason. I have a serious feeling the FK1 has what it takes to sway me from the Avior, or at least give me an equivalent if not even better feel in-game due to the weight alone. I'm not sure if the click latency will have an effect on me though because I definitely feel like that could hurt me in a very close head-on gunfight.


Avior got 1 of the better clicks in the mice market imo.
What I find with FK1 is that duo to its harder clicks, I find myself in need to almost "pre-click" or atleast focus more on the click, cause my brain isent used to having such hard clicks, if that makes sens. Therefore it could feel like you struggle to hit targets when you have to react very fast ( I do not know FK1's click latency).


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Overall, the G402 seems like a great mouse but outside of the ridiculous tracking ability (which, lets be honest here, would provide little if any in-game improvement compared to any 3310 mouse for 99% of gamers) it doesn't seem to offer much else.


It offers a more responsive, smoothing free sensor combined with higher tracking speeds. Although 3 m/s would be enough for almost everybody people would have complained if it were capped at that because G400 was faster already.
Of course the marketing around "being the fastest mouse" is a bit overboard for us.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Avior got 1 of the better clicks in the mice market imo.
> What I find with FK1 is that duo to its harder clicks, I find myself in need to almost "pre-click" or atleast focus more on the click, cause my brain isent used to having such hard clicks, if that makes sens. Therefore it could feel like you struggle to hit targets when you have to react very fast ( I do not know FK1's click latency).


The thing is in really intense situations my clicking gets so heavy that sometimes I double click or misclick on the Avior and this was less of a problem with the heavier switches of my FK so for me they are a plus. Other than the click latency, I do use the scroll wheel to change weapons a lot and the scroll on my FK isn't great either. I guess all there is is to hope I would get a working one.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Nice video review!
> +rep
> 
> Reviews like yours are the complete opposite of those usual silly unboxing "review" videos of mice on youtube. You know, that kind where the "reviewer" doesnt even plug the mouse into the pc before and just presses the buttons a little and wouldnt have a clue what hes talking about anyways other than maybe how the LEDs work...


Thanks for the praise, much appreciated. Although this one was a bit boring (I've done live Enotus and Paint jitter tests, etc on past mouse reviews), I tried to describe my experience with the mouse as close as possible. I always use mice for a week straight at least before reviewing them to make sure I can talk about every last quirk. I try to explain what it's like to really use in the real world as well as all the specs that we like to measure empirically on OCN. No one else does that except us OCN mice guys


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> *It offers a more responsive, smoothing free sensor* combined with higher tracking speeds.


I could see how that could be true compared to say, the Rival (or the Avior, "swamp cursor" LOL) but does the G402 really feel any more responsive to you than the FK1? What I mean to say is at speeds that are within the threshold of the 3310 does the G402 track more responsively/naturally? I ask this as an owner of both an FK1 and G100s wondering where this mouse falls performance-wise for practical/realistic usage.


----------



## Aventadoor

To me, FK1 feels more raw.

Ive gotten a love/hate relationship with the G402.
For some wierd reason, doing simple shots, shots with minor adjustments or following heads is making me struggle, while I get flick shots like never before.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> To me, FK1 feels more raw.
> 
> Ive gotten a love/hate relationship with the G402.
> For some wierd reason, doing simple shots, shots with minor adjustments or following heads is making me struggle, while I get flick shots like never before.


Could just be the shape. Or maybe you are a hyper-sensitive CS guy since that engine has less input lag than other modern games.


----------



## nocebo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> There is <1ms of smoothing at CPI steps from 2080-4000. This is the same amount of smoothing present across all CPI steps in G100s. There is 0 smoothing at 2000 CPI and below, which (along with 1ms report rate vs 2ms) is an improvement vs the G100s sensor parameters.


Is there any way to know if this can be tested? Is this a value or option thats choosen in the firmware?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I could see how that could be true compared to say, the Rival (or the Avior, "swamp cursor" LOL) but does the G402 really feel any more responsive to you than the FK1? What I mean to say is at speeds that are within the threshold of the 3310 does the G402 track more responsively/naturally? I ask this as an owner of both an FK1 and G100s wondering where this mouse falls performance-wise for practical/realistic usage.


I'm not the most picky when it comes to responsiveness, but if I go by feeling alone then the G402 is nicer. I'm sure a guy like r0ach would appreciate the cursor feeling of the G402 compared to the 3310.


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'm not the most picky when it comes to responsiveness, but if I go by feeling alone then the G402 is nicer. I'm sure a guy like r0ach would appreciate the cursor feeling of the G402 compared to the 3310.


I second that - the G402 feels a tad bit more responsive but for some reason on my new Monitor only @ 1000hz even if that one should have fairly less input-lag then my old one. The Rival has almost double the smoothing that might be why it feels better at lower refresh-rates as well. However 1000hz is almost to much accurate for me - I wish there was a step inbetween 500 and 100 like 750 or 800hz (not knowing if it 's possible). :/


----------



## Skylit

umm.. 1000/1.25 and 1000/1.5 should be possible. 800 and 666.666 hz


----------



## justyourimage

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> umm.. 1000/1.25 and 1000/1.5 should be possible. 800 and 666.666 hz


As in theoretically speaking or practically? If practically - How?


----------



## Skylit

Would have to be supported by manufacturer firmware.

1000hz, 500hz, 333hz, 250hz, 200hz, 167hz, 143hz, 125hz are common values divisible by whole numbers 1-8


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justyourimage*
> 
> I second that - the G402 feels a tad bit more responsive but for some reason on my new Monitor only @ 1000hz even if that one should have fairly less input-lag then my old one. The Rival has almost double the smoothing that might be why it feels better at lower refresh-rates as well. However 1000hz is almost to much accurate for me - I wish there was a step inbetween 500 and 100 like 750 or 800hz (not knowing if it 's possible). :/


Maybe try decreasing DPI instead. You might find out you like different DPI steps better on different mice. It's like that for me. On the G402 I like 800 DPI, while I liked around 900-1000 DPI on other mice. I didn't correct the sensitivity in FPS games after reducing the DPI, so my cm/360 also changed and it still doesn't feel wrong.


----------



## justyourimage

In case you hate the prominent, itchy, boxy, edgy new left area with the Thumb-Rest you can pretty much altogether bring it back to something similar to the old shape of the G400s, MX50x and the like with fine sandpaper giving a better grip for some styles (for mine at least - since I like it when my thumb actually hits the mousemat enabling better control for stopping the movement with my claw-like grip).

I'm not completely done yet but if the sandpaper is fine enough - and when you use a spill of water that is you won't notice any scratches at all.
It looks like it 's made that way (well aside from some imperfections in shape in terms of looks).

The left side is made of pretty solid and thick rubber so it 's quite customizable in terms of shape.


----------



## duhizy

Hey Ino, did you weigh the g402 yourself? Logitech website says 108g.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> Hey Ino, did you weigh the g402 yourself? Logitech website says 108g.


I assume you were the one that commented on my video on YT







yeah I'm also wondering the same thing.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> Hey Ino, did you weigh the g402 yourself? Logitech website says 108g.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> I assume you were the one that commented on my video on YT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah I'm also wondering the same thing.


He most likely copied it from this post:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Cable-free weight should also be closer to 103g. I just cut the cable off of mine at the end of the strain relief and re-verified.


----------



## duhizy

The wire is pretty thick tho, I imagine it feels like an extra few grams when moving the mouse large distances. It still keeps the mouse at a very exceptable weight tho, probably the best on the market for those that are sensitive about smooyhing.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> Hey Ino, did you weigh the g402 yourself? Logitech website says 108g.


No I did not, I thought I mentioned somewhere that I don't have a scale to measure the weight myself. I used CPates statement (weight with cable cut off after the stress relief) like Derp suggested.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> The wire is pretty thick tho, I imagine it feels like an extra few grams when moving the mouse large distances. It still keeps the mouse at a very exceptable weight tho, probably the best on the market for those that are sensitive about smooyhing.


Still want to know how many FPS the sensor has, and them not saying it makes me believe the value is pretty low, I bet it's in the 4000/5000 range.

If so, sending data every two frames (I really don't see image correlation happening with only one







) at an arbitrary 5000 would still yield more similar latency to sending data every 3 frames at 6469 than every 2 at 9000.


----------



## hasukka

So let me get this right.. I can use whatever dpi setting/Polling rate setting under 2000dpi with the G402 and there is absolutely no smoothing whatsoever and the tracking is as 1:1 as it gets? F.E. 1600dpi step seems to be a native one, will I get the same performance with 1100dpi? For me 1100dpi feels the best in game and on desktop.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hasukka*
> 
> So let me get this right.. I can use whatever dpi setting/Polling rate setting under 2000dpi with the G402 and there is absolutely no smoothing whatsoever and the tracking is as 1:1 as it gets? F.E. 1600dpi step seems to be a native one, will I get the same performance with 1100dpi? For me 1100dpi feels the best in game and on desktop.


You can't use 1100 dpi. The closest numbers you can choose are 1040 dpi or 1120 dpi. The reason is, it has to be a multiple of 80.

You understood that right about 2000 dpi and lower having no "smoothing" whatsoever. That's what Logitech says. No one knows how to test this so you have to trust them to tell the truth.


----------



## e4stw00t

According to Logitech yes, you are fine below 2.08k - if you believe in R0ach it's not bearable at all. Personally I think it works great at the 1.6k range I usually drive it but I am also rather little sensitive to smoothing to begin with.


----------



## hasukka

Alright thanks, this would be easily the best mouse I've ever used if it just had a more flexible and a thinner cord.


----------



## e4stw00t

The cord is kind of a deal breaker for me, no matter what I try it affects the gliding and positioning of the mouse and as a consequence it's performance for me personally.

Waiting for a lightweight small to mid size ambidextrous mouse with a solid 3310 implementation and will use the Savu till then.


----------



## Torongo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e4stw00t*
> 
> The cord is kind of a deal breaker for me, no matter what I try it affects the gliding and positioning of the mouse and as a consequence it's performance for me personally.
> 
> Waiting for a lightweight small to mid size ambidextrous mouse with a solid 3310 implementation and will use the Savu till then.


How your Savu cord feels like? Mine is very stiff, so it drags on my Goliathus Speed pretty badly


----------



## e4stw00t

It's a bit stiffer than most braided cords but still fine for me - the G402 one's on the other hand - oh boy it's super stiff and also really thick (can't think of another mouse cord that has a comparable diameter).


----------



## duhizy

Just got the mouse about an hour ago, initial impressions were quite impressive. The shape imo is a large improvement from the g502, the weight and dimensions are pretty solid. The sensor performs splendidly, i felt no difference between the on/off fusion engine. The main issue that i have with the mouse is the cable, there is truly no exaggeration as to how badly this hurts the mouse, it literally feels like the mouse is trying to force me from going in certain directions. As good as the mouse is, there's just no point in keeping it if extra tension on my flick shots is going to make me undershoot every time. You could say that one could get used to the tension created by the cable, the question is why anyone would honestly want to deal with that if there are other mice on the market that don't require such troubles.


----------



## e4stw00t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> Just got the mouse about an hour ago, initial impressions were quite impressive. The shape imo is a large improvement from the g502, the weight and dimensions are pretty solid. The sensor performs splendidly, i felt no difference between the on/off fusion engine. The main issue that i have with the mouse is the cable, there is truly no exaggeration as to how badly this hurts the mouse, it literally feels like the mouse is trying to force me from going in certain directions. As good as the mouse is, there's just no point in keeping it if extra tension on my flick shots is going to make me undershoot every time. You could say that one could get used to the tension created by the cable, the question is why anyone would honestly want to deal with that if there are other mice on the market that don't require such troubles.


Yeah that's pretty much how I experienced the 402 as well - Logitech destroyed a perfectly good mouse with a ... cord directly out of hell


----------



## thuNDa

that's a shame about the cable.








there must be alot of options available to them as the biggest input device company, and they choose to use something unarguably bad.


----------



## metal571

Just moved to a G402 at work from my Lachesis 3G because I couldn't take the Z axis bug on the desktop anymore. The shape is just lesser than the Avior and the cable is awful for FPS, so here it is.


----------



## e4stw00t

Logitech was kind of infamous for cables snapping - think the G400 has had a fair share of units that got killed by it. But they did definitively overshoot by trying to make the cable more sturdy - the 100s was kind of on the brink for me already and the 402 is just beyond my personal acceptance.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duhizy*
> 
> The main issue that i have with the mouse is the cable


Just get a cable stripper at the hardware store, that's what I'm going to do to mine. It's completely unusable with that cable on it.


----------



## DivineDark

UNUSABLE!!!!!!


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> UNUSABLE!!!!!!


I agree with @r0ach, The cable suck big time


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> I agree with @r0ach, The cable suck big time


I'm just in love with the wild statements and dramatic exaggerations used on this forum.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> I'm just in love with the wild statements and dramatic exaggerations used on this forum.


I hate throwing WorksForMe™ around(Doesn'tWorkForMe™ in this case), but G402's cable is really unusable, the main reason I retreat to g100s and put g402 away.


----------



## duhizy

Pretty sure i set a record for fastest mouse return of all time(for myself at least), it's like when you meet this really hot girl and then 2 hours into hanging out she tell you she has three kids, I ain't about dat life


----------



## e4stw00t

Had a similar date lately - really hot lady but 5 minutes in I knew this goes downhill big time (no kids involved, was just dumb as f...)


----------



## duhizy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e4stw00t*
> 
> Had a similar date lately - really hot lady but 5 minutes in I knew this goes downhill big time (no kids involved, was just dumb as f...)


I guess it's just how she was built


----------



## frigidanchors

Just got the mouse today. First impressions: the mouse is lighter than I thought it'd be, so that if you turn it on its back and heft it in your hands it feels kind of cheap and light. There might be some acceleration, I can't really tell based on my tests in CSGO. Do you guys have any ideas how I might go about testing that? It feels... pretty different from my WMO 1.1a I was using. It almost feels like it's moving ahead of where I think it should be when I'm moving the cursor from target to target. Could that just be the G402's 1000Hz polling rate vs my WMO's 125 Hz polling rate? Let me know what tests I can run. I think the WMO runs at 400 DPI, whereas I played with the G402 on CSGO at 800 DPI, woops.

Here's how I rate the cords of the mice I've used.

*Steelseries Rival*: The Rival by far had the stiffest, thickest cable, so *I'll rate it a 10 out of 10* in terms of stiffness and stickiness with the table. *A 1 on this scale would mean that the cable is extremely flexible and non-intrusive*, but I haven't found a mouse that fits that criteria.
*Logitech G402*: The *G402 is somewhere around a 7*. I've fed myself just enough slack in front of my mousepad before the mouse cable snakes behind my monitor so that the cable's intrusion is pretty minimal. However, if I push my mouse to the top edges of the mousepad, the cable pushes against the wall behind my desk and starts to resist a little bit. It's not very much, but it's there.
*WMO 1.1a*: The *WMO rates maybe a 4* on this scale, as it will still resist your movementsable to push against a surface in the right way, but for the most part, this ancient mouse's cable has gotten slack with the years.
*Deathadder 2013*: The Deathadder was interesting since it had a braided cable. The cable glided across the fake wood paneling of my desk, and the folds in the cable are so numerous that the cable tends to fold before it resists. I dunno... I don't remember having many problems with the cable of the Deathadder. *I give the DA's cable a 3* for my particular table.
If you've felt the G502, you'd know that the left and right mouse buttons are pretty narrow, but thankfully they've made them wider on the G402. Clicks feel great, light, springy, with good feedback, and they actuate at a pretty predictable point. If I had to exaggerate, I might say that they are on the touchier side, but I think the DA's buttons were way more sensitive (without exaggeration) to the point that I found myself accidentally hitting the RMB 3-4 times in the few weeks I had the DA 2013, whereas that has never happened with the WMO nor the other mice I've used.

The sniper button is well out of the way of my 17.5cm hands using a palm/claw grip. My thumb literally doesn't touch it unless I reach for it. Whatev's. I'm used to having forward and back buttons, and the forward and back buttons on the G402 suffice, although they're pretty small. The DPI switch buttons are pretty out of the way of the LMB, and I wouldn't worry about hitting them unless you have fairly wide fingers, especially since the DPI switch buttons are a different material, and are angled so you'll know when your fingers are touching them.

I really appreciate the light and easy Logitech Gaming Software, as well as the mouse's on-board memory. I'll let you guys know if I keep the mouse. It's my favorite of the WMO, DA 2013, and SS Rival so far. The DA 2013 was great, but it gets slick and damp and hot during play. I'll see how the G402 holds up during intense gameplay.


----------



## Longasc

Regarding SHAPE / RIGHT SIDE "LIP":

*Both the G502 and G402 would profit so much from the rounded right side and overlapping right mouse button of the G602!*

That thing is lightweight and easy to lift despite 2xAA batteries and the materials used make both other G-mice look like cheap toys.

The right side has a firm hold and the slightly rounded and overlapping mouse button totally eliminates every edge.

-> I so wish it would have the G502 sensor and a cable. I would pay +50% more than for the overprice G502, do you hear that Logitech, I would gladly pay it!
Don't really need the left side mouse button array but god damn...

... the shape and materials of the G602 are mouse porn. I almost had an orgasm when touching it!


----------



## Arxeal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> I hate throwing WorksForMe™ around(Doesn'tWorkForMe™ in this case), but G402's cable is really unusable, the main reason I retreat to g100s and put g402 away.


Why don't use g502? Too heavy?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arxeal*
> 
> Why don't use g502? Too heavy?


If a person moves from a G402 to a G100, you can bet the G502 isn't even on that person's "maybe" list. WAAAAAY too heavy.


----------



## ronal

Just picked up this mouse couple hours ago from Bestbuy and so far its amazing. The cord is not as bad as people make it out to be, its a lot better than the one on the Sensei Raw that's for sure. The shape fits my hand beautifully much better than the DA2013. So far I can't come up with anything bad about it and this will be my daily driver for the time being until another mouse dethrones it.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Just picked up this mouse couple hours ago from Bestbuy and so far its amazing. *The cord is not as bad as people make it out to be*, its a lot better than the one on the Sensei Raw that's for sure. The shape fits my hand beautifully much better than the DA2013. So far I can't come up with anything bad about it and this will be my daily driver for the time being until another mouse dethrones it.


Impossible... Its UNUSABLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Just picked up this mouse couple hours ago from Bestbuy and so far its amazing. The cord is not as bad as people make it out to be, its a lot better than the one on the Sensei Raw that's for sure. The shape fits my hand beautifully much better than the DA2013. So far I can't come up with anything bad about it and this will be my daily driver for the time being until another mouse dethrones it.


hows the cord compared to say, the ime 3.0?

I kinda like a somewhat stiff cord, because very bendy and malleable cords tends to get stuck on whatever thats near, as if theyre a lizard trying to eat gum


----------



## frigidanchors

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> hows the cord compared to say, the ime 3.0?
> 
> I kinda like a somewhat stiff cord, because very bendy and malleable cords tends to get stuck on whatever thats near, as if theyre a lizard trying to eat gum


It's a bit less stiff than the Steelseries Rival, which was incredibly stiff but still useable. It's a good bit stiffer than my WMO 1.1a.


----------



## DivineDark

Yeah... Just got notification that my Best Buy just got the G402 in stock... Not sure I wanna get it. The shape doesn't really appeal to me, and I'm iffy on the fusion engine stuff. I still have the M45 to test, and I'm knee deep in other mice at the moment. Still very tempting.


----------



## mtzgr

Picked one up from Micro Center. Here are my quick thoughts, sans sensor talk:

*Shape* - Somewhat of an improvement over the G400 I think. I appreciate the lower profile (more Sensei like) and that they tried to do something with the right lip. I don't think they do enough though, as it is still awkward to grip.
*Button Click* - Nice and crisp.
*Mousewheel* - Best action of any mouse I've ever tried, really love it.
*Weight* - Nice weight.
*Coating* - Decent
*Cord* - There are no words to describe how truly stupid the construction of this cord is. You are basically arm wrestling with it while you try to play. That being said, after 5 or 10 minutes I was able to figure out a config that was playable.

*MOUSE3* - Really sucks.
*Side Buttons* - They aren't bad, but they're not for me.

In the end it's getting returned and I will stick with my G400s. I am in a love/hate relationship with the mouse, because nothing I've tried is as consistent for me, but the right-side lip and scrollwheel make me want to smash it against the wall. Even so, keep at it Logitech. <3


----------



## DivineDark

Sitting at the PC right now with G402 under palm. I've been messing with it for the last hour or so. Here are my REALLY early impressions:

*Shape:* Nice! I like it. It's a big step forward from the MX518/G400 shape. The profile is lower, like the Sensei, as mtzgr mentioned. The width and length are all well within my comfort zone. The lip on the right of the G400 really made it difficult for me to get comfortable. With that gone and a more claw friendly right side, I'm a happy camper. I actually prefer the G502's shape, but not by much.

*Buttons:* It's logitech. All of the buttons are nice. I actually like the MB4 and MB5 buttons on the G402 better than the G502, as they give a much more tactile feel. MB3 isn't fantastic. It's a very "rubber dome" feeling hard hard click, but it's still usable in game without scrolling the wheel by accident. The DPI buttons next to MB1 feel the same as the others (except MB3).

*Scroll wheel:* Feels good. It's definitely one of Logitech's best by miles.

*Sensor:* I'll preface this again with the fact that I am a mid sense player, so moderate PCS doesn't hurt me. With that said, the cursor feels very natural. It's snappy and predictable. I have not engaged the hyperdrive yet, but I'll play around with it to see if I notice any difference in cursor feel with it engaged. Outside of testing, I'm not sure I'll ever have it turn on.

*The negatives...*

1.) *Sniper button:* I hoped upon hope that Metal's review was right. That the sniper button was out of reach. I didn't have much of an issue with the G502's button, but the G402's sniper button is RIGHT WHERE MY THUMB SITS!!! DAMN IT!!! In order to use this thing in game, I have to pull my grip back almost a half inch into a fingertip style. The benefit is that it lines the side buttons up with the tip and first knuckle of my thumb. That's fantastic, but my effortless grip doesn't really work here.

2.) *The cord:* I'm not going to say that it's the worst cord I've ever used. It's NOT as bad as the Sensei RAW. It's NOT as bad as the CM Storm Spawn. Actually, after I hooked it up and put it on my mouse bungee, I haven't given it a second thought. However, it's not great, and Logitech seemed to cut a corner here on an otherwise great piece of hardware.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> I have not engaged the hyperdrive yet


lmao


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> lmao


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> 2.) *The cord:* I'm not going to say that it's the worst cord I've ever used. It's NOT as bad as the Sensei RAW. It's NOT as bad as the CM Storm Spawn. Actually, after I hooked it up and put it on my mouse bungee, I haven't given it a second thought. However, it's not great, and Logitech seemed to cut a corner here on an otherwise great piece of hardware.


I told you the cord wasn't that bad, it's alot better than the one on Sensei Raw by a long shot.


----------



## e4stw00t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> Actually, after I hooked it up and put it on my mouse bungee, I haven't given it a second thought. However, it's not great, and Logitech seemed to cut a corner here on an otherwise great piece of hardware.


Curious what kind of bungee you are using - the cord diameter doesn't allow my CM Storm one to be used on the 402.


----------



## Longasc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> *Coating* - Decent
> *Cord* - There are no words to describe how truly stupid the construction of this cord is. You are basically arm wrestling with it while you try to play. That being said, after 5 or 10 minutes I was able to figure out a config that was playable.


Your mouse bungee/holder arrangement is sabotaging your setup.

It doesn't work with many cords as you are doing. Trying getting a larger mousepad, cover half your desk and let the mouse cord run in a straight line till it drops behind the desk. Move the pad closer to you. It's a bit hard to judge as I don't see screen and keyboard. You might not even need a holder this way. There will be zero pull down or in any direction.

Give it a try! I love the G400/G400s, too. I wish the G402 had the right side/lip of the G602, as I like even the pronounced lip of the G400/s better as it allows me to better rest my finger on top of it.


----------



## duhizy

i tried letting it drag behind the desk, it just feels harder to move down then it does to move up, there's just no configuration on my desk that i could find that didnt cause the cord to make it harder to move in a certain direction.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> Your mouse bungee/holder arrangement is sabotaging your setup.
> 
> It doesn't work with many cords as you are doing. Trying getting a larger mousepad, cover half your desk and let the mouse cord run in a straight line till it drops behind the desk. Move the pad closer to you. It's a bit hard to judge as I don't see screen and keyboard. You might not even need a holder this way. There will be zero pull down or in any direction.
> 
> Give it a try! I love the G400/G400s, too. I wish the G402 had the right side/lip of the G602, as I like even the pronounced lip of the G400/s better as it allows me to better rest my finger on top of it.


I really don't know what you're going on about.



This is my setup. I don't need a larger mousepad.


----------



## Ino.

I'm starting to think my G402 cable is different than all of yours. It's rather close to the Zowie cables for me, just a bit stiffer.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'm starting to think my G402 cable is different than all of yours. It's rather close to the Zowie cables for me, just a bit stiffer.


I own a couple of EC2s. Nowhere close, like comparing a BMW to a Honda.


----------



## Longasc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> I really don't know what you're going on about.


That's a pity but let me try to explain once more. The way you bend the cable guarantees that it gets in your way. You will see an improvement if you move your mouse pad to the edge of the table and not near the wall.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> I own a couple of EC2s. Nowhere close, like comparing a BMW to a Honda.


Hence why I've got the feeling that mine is different than yours. Maybe a preproduction sample.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Hence why I've got the feeling that mine is different than yours. Maybe a preproduction sample.


I was just saying you're probably right.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> That's a pity but let me try to explain once more. The way you bend the cable guarantees that it gets in your way. You will see an improvement if you move your mouse pad to the edge of the table and not near the wall.


The way I had the G402 setup was the only way I found that eliminated drag and unwanted movement from the cable. I appreciate your insights, but I play with my arm on the desk.


----------



## Longasc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Hence why I've got the feeling that mine is different than yours. Maybe a preproduction sample.


I got a very early but probably not preproduction sample and I wonder about the issues people have with the cord. There is IMO unfortunately a lot of hyperbole but I cab imagine people having a not so high cloth mousepad as a Razer Goliathus XXL having scrape the cord over the desk, but mine is mostly on cloth and behind that in the air so I really cannot reproduce the problem. The Fusion Engine/Gyroscope is also driving the imagination of some players to go crazy when I read claims what the gyroscope is supposedly doing to the mouse.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Longasc*
> 
> There is IMO unfortunately a lot of hyperbole...


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> UNUSABLE!!!!!!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> I agree with @r0ach, The cable suck big time


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> Impossible... Its UNUSABLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> *Cord* - There are no words to describe how truly stupid the construction of this cord is. You are basically arm wrestling with it while you try to play.


Funny to see companies making fancy mice but cutting costs at something that is ABSOLUTELY VITAL for many gamers. Unfortunately I'm one of them, a stiff cord is all the reason I need not to buy a mouse no matter how fancy the sensor.

Love Zowie cords as they feel cord-less to me. Also most mice with stiff cords that I used failed because the cord broke.

Shape. Sensor. Cord. Buttons. Get those right and you get it right.

Also I see Logitec still didn't fire their designers. I thought after the tribal tatoo fiasco of the previous G's the new line would be prettier. It's still ugly mouse.









Also I saw the G402 advertisements. Made me grin all the time, so cheesy.


----------



## connectwise

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*


I'm so confused.


----------



## metal571

@DivineDark you have to claw the mouse pretty hard with your thumb to avoid the damned sniper button. Works fine for me on fingertip as you discovered but those who naturally claw, I could see the issue coming into play for sure.

I'm also pretty sure the Fusion Engine is on by default


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e4stw00t*
> 
> Curious what kind of bungee you are using - the cord diameter doesn't allow my CM Storm one to be used on the 402.


I'm using a CM Storm Skorpion. Probably just like you. The cord fits fine for me. Again, it's not anywhere near as thick as the Sensei RAW cable and that fit in the Skorpion as well.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Funny to see companies making fancy mice but cutting costs at something that is ABSOLUTELY VITAL for many gamers. Unfortunately I'm one of them, a stiff cord is all the reason I need not to buy a mouse no matter how fancy the sensor.
> 
> Love Zowie cords as they feel cord-less to me. Also most mice with stiff cords that I used failed because the cord broke.
> 
> Shape. Sensor. Cord. Buttons. Get those right and you get it right.
> 
> Also I see Logitec still didn't fire their designers. I thought after the tribal tatoo fiasco of the previous G's the new line would be prettier. It's still ugly mouse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I saw the G402 advertisements. Made me grin all the time, so cheesy.


Whoa whoa whoa... Hold your horses. Don't use my words, which were BLATANT sarcasm, to damn this cord. If you actually look at my first impressions, you'll see that I really have no issue with it.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> @DivineDark you have to claw the mouse pretty hard with your thumb to avoid the damned sniper button. Works fine for me on fingertip as you discovered but those who naturally claw, I could see the issue coming into play for sure.
> 
> I'm also pretty sure the Fusion Engine is on by default


I played with it for about 4 hours last night. I had absolutely no issues with the sniper button at all. After I stopped thinking about it, I was just fine. The mouse performed very very well. I like the cursor feel, but I never engaged the fusion engine. I know it's "on", but it's not doing anything until the sensor gets near malfunction. I didn't get anywhere near that. I tested in their software and the fastest I move my hand in ANY of the games I played was 2.2m/s. That wouldn't even bother the AM010.

Either way, I actually plugged the G502 in along side the G402 because I remember liking the feeling of that mouse more. I was actually wrong. The G502 was a chore to play with after playing with the G402. The sensor is still fantastic, but the G402 has a very raw feeling cursor, even if it doesn't have the blazing fast native tracking capability. I played two games with the G502 and went right back to the G402. It's a really nice unit. I'm not sure what I'm going to stick with, but the DEFINITELY gave me another choice for my rotation.


----------



## metal571

The 502 and dat weight doe.


----------



## HiTechPixel

At 144Hz, does the G502/G402 have the rawest sensors on the market that are readily available? Or does the Zowie FK1 rival them?


----------



## TK421

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> At 144Hz, does the G502/G402 have the rawest sensors on the market that are readily available? Or does the Zowie FK1 rival them?


Current mass produced sensor

G502 = G402 > G100s > 3310 mouse

r0ach ed

G502(?) = G100s > G402 > 3310 mouse

Max edition

MLT04 9K > all


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TK421*
> 
> Current mass produced sensor
> 
> G502 = G402 > G100s > 3310 mouse
> 
> r0ach ed
> 
> G502(?) = G100s > G402 > 3310 mouse
> 
> Max edition
> 
> MLT04 9K > all


So the G502 it is then. When I get more money I'll purchase the FK1 and compare the Avior, FK1 and G502.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> At 144Hz, does the G502/G402 have the rawest sensors on the market that are readily available? Or does the Zowie FK1 rival them?


I'm running a Benq XL2411Z (120hz, blur reduction on, Blur Busters Utility calibrated, 1350 trick enabled) and a Benq XL2720T (120Hz, Lightboost Active). From my experience with these mice, I would echo exactly what TK said. Not the R0ach part... The two Logitech mice really have a wonderful feeling to the cursor. As I said in the G402 preview, it is very natural and predictable.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> I'm running a Benq XL2411Z (120hz, blur reduction on, Blur Busters Utility calibrated, 1350 trick enabled) and a Benq XL2720T (120Hz, Lightboost Active). From my experience with these mice, I would echo exactly what TK said. Not the R0ach part... The two Logitech mice really have a wonderful feeling to the cursor. As I said in the G402 preview, it is very natural and predictable.


Yeah... I'll go with the G502. Want to be popping those headshots on Counter-Strike.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Yeah... I'll go with the G502. Want to be popping those headshots on Counter-Strike.


Pretty sure you would be able to do that with either. The difference being the weight. If an extra 25G of weight doesn't bother you, and the scroll wheel doesn't bother you, then the G502 is awesome.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> Pretty sure you would be able to do that with either. The difference being the weight. If an extra 25G of weight doesn't bother you, and the scroll wheel doesn't bother you, then the G502 is awesome.


I forgot about the weight... Guess I'll go with the Zowie FK1 then. I'll save a few bucks that way. Can you turn off the side buttons on it?


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> I forgot about the weight... Guess I'll go with the Zowie FK1 then. I'll save a few bucks that way. Can you turn off the side buttons on it?


No. Zowie mice are driver/software free. One set of side buttons will always work, but you will not be able to use the opposite side buttons at the same time.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> No. Zowie mice are driver/software free. One set of side buttons will always work, but you will not be able to use the opposite side buttons at the same time.


Dang. I was hoping that I could turn off all the side buttons. That'd be really good.

Also, would a Zowie FK1 work well on a soft-cloth mouse mat? I currently have the Corsair MM200 which is a soft-cloth but if the Zowie FK1 doesn't work well on it I'll switch to something else (Artisan?).


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> At 144Hz, does the G502/G402 have the rawest sensors on the market that are readily available? Or does the Zowie FK1 rival them?


at 144hz i perfer the 3366 over the zowie implementation of the 3310 in the FK1, which isnt bad but it isnt the 3366.

however im using niether of those mice atm since i managed to get a WMO *new in box* off ebay the other day. its like 2001 all over again.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Dang. I was hoping that I could turn off all the side buttons. That'd be really good.
> 
> Also, would a Zowie FK1 work well on a soft-cloth mouse mat? I currently have the Corsair MM200 which is a soft-cloth but if the Zowie FK1 doesn't work well on it I'll switch to something else (Artisan?).


The 3310 sensor isn't really picky when it comes to soft pads. You might have some issues if you choose to go hard pad, but that's about it.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> at 144hz i perfer the 3366 over the zowie implementation of the 3310 in the FK1, which isnt bad but it isnt the 3366.
> 
> however im using niether of those mice atm since i managed to get a WMO *new in box* off ebay the other day. its like 2001 all over again.


Well... I'm going to go with the Zowie FK1. But I can get a IME 3.0 for cheap, brand new. Pretty interesting.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> The 3310 sensor isn't really picky when it comes to soft pads. You might have some issues if you choose to go hard pad, but that's about it.


Huh. So soft is better? Lucky me.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> at 144hz i perfer the 3366 over the zowie implementation of the 3310 in the FK1, which isnt bad but it isnt the 3366.
> 
> however im using niether of those mice atm since i managed to get a WMO *new in box* off ebay the other day. its like 2001 all over again.


Yeah... I didn't really like 2001. I have a couple 3.0's and I have no interest in them.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> Yeah... I didn't really like 2001. I have a couple 3.0's and I have no interest in them.


Pls gieb


----------



## metal571

Actually if you use the Avior on the Sargas pad the LOD is much higher than any other cloth pad I have. Mionix's own mousepad isn't even good for their own optical mouse, go figure.

The big name pads work perfectly though with much lower LOD than any 3090 has been able to achieve.


----------



## resis

I laid my hands on a G402 in a store today. Shape is good, but there was a Razer Taipan nearby and I think Taipan's shape is better. Also Steelseries typical design is more comfy. Best is the G100 though that was there, too.

The sniper button doesn't stand in the way, the thumb rests nicely. Side buttons are good to reach. Clicks are fine, wheel is not bad I think.

Cable is thick and not extremely stiff, but still very dissatisfying for me. I can't go back to this after having been in the Zowie cord heaven.

Design is not as ugly as I made it sound, is prettiest Logitec mouse since a long time, but still could have been a bit nicer (should try less to look like the RAT mice).

I think about getting the FK1 (I like the shape and the look and it has good sensor and good DPI steps) and surely will get BST's mouse (G100 shape FTW!). If both disappoint, than the G402 seems like the only available choice right now, because most other mice are not for me.

Taipan has a heavenly shape and absolutely beautiful design and feels and looks first class, but cloud software and laser sensor make it a non-option. Why is there always something that must destroy perfection? Razer keep re-releasing the Deathadder with the new sensors, but the Taipan shape is only available with an over priced flawed sensor build. And cloud software anyway...


----------



## metal571

Also, the Taipan has a 9800 in it. More failure there.

Also take a look at the Avior 7000 if you like that kind of a shape. Works best with fingertip in my experience.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Also, the Taipan has a 9800 in it. More failure there.
> 
> Also take a look at the Avior 7000 if you like that kind of a shape. Works best with fingertip in my experience.


Wait.. wait...wait... You like the Avior??? /shocked


----------



## metal571

Well the Taipan actually shares a not too dissimilar shape in this case but the Avior has a lot more room on the sides and I think would work for almost anyone if their grip doesnt bother them with the side buttons


----------



## mtzgr

I thought I'd elaborate on my initial impressions. So I've put 4-5 game hours into the G402 playing CS:GO, DMing and MMing, and I've also spent a good amount of time working the entire cable with my hands to try and make it more pliant. Some might think that isn't enough testing time, but I think it's enough for an informed opinion. For reference, I play with a G400s on a QcK, with a sense of 49.5cm/360.

Quick note on the Fusion Engine: I played primarily with Optical Only. I tried the Fusion Engine, and it seemed to make no difference to me. Reading from the drivers I never flicked faster than 2m/s, so I just left it off. (whether the drivers are accurate or not I do not claim to know)

Compared to the G400s, my aim is much more steady. I am going to attribute this to the improved shape and reduced weight. Lightly pinching the mouse between my thumb and ring finger, and bobbing it up and down off the desk, you'll feel that the mouse is balanced well. There's no perceptible movement, it's very solid. Doing the same with the G400s produces significant wobble, the mouse is not balanced evenly. As a result, I was able to stay on target more when making small movements with the G402. This improved my pistol game more than anything.

Unfortunately, the mouse made my flick shots very inconsistent. I would generally undershoot my targets, and then overshoot as I tried to compensate. I was never able to flick the mouse in a consistent way that made me comfortable with its ability to perform. If I were to make a rough generalization, I'd say that my first shot AWP accuracy (when flicking) went from 60-70% to 30-40%. I don't think this a fault of the sensor (though it might be?), but the cord which seems to impair movement of the mouse. To be fair, I've gotten the cord a great deal less stiff than it originally was, but I still think it is a hindrance (if not the cord I don't know the reason for this inconsistency).

All and all the shape and weight is improved over the G400s, though the right-side lip is slanted inward and still produces an awkward grip, in my opinion more so than the G400's. If they improved the right-side of the mouse (made it less deathclaw), and improved the cord, it would probably replace my G400s. I think the mouse promotes a steady aim, and if you generally don't flick your mouse and make fast movements it's a fine choice, as the clicks and mousewheel are great, and the texture is pleasant. If you flick your mouse at all I would stay away from it.


----------



## resis

Companies should take notice. The cord does matter.


----------



## Xanatos

Only if users don't know how to provide enough slack for a mouse.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> Unfortunately, the mouse made my flick shots very inconsistent. I would generally undershoot my targets, and then overshoot as I tried to compensate. I was never able to flick the mouse in a consistent way that made me comfortable with its ability to perform. If I were to make a rough generalization, I'd say that my first shot AWP accuracy (when flicking) went from 60-70% to 30-40%. I don't think this a fault of the sensor (though it might be?), but the cord which seems to impair movement of the mouse. To be fair, I've gotten the cord a great deal less stiff than it originally was, but I still think it is a hindrance (if not the cord I don't know the reason for this inconsistency).


I notice the same with my G100S which shares the same sensor (- the gyroscope).
Cannot really tell if it's just me, but I tried many times now to get used to that sensor of the G100S and I just can't. The cursor/crosshair just never lands where I want it to. It immediately improves when I switch back to FK1 (3310), or WMO (MLT04), or EC2 eVo (3090).


----------



## cuad

I'm finding myself accidentally hitting the DPI buttons.


----------



## Ickz

I returned mine. Couldn't stand the stiff cable, it actually felt like my mouse was weighed down by it or something. Ridiculous. Also didn't like the amount of pressure needed to press the mwheel button. Wheel felt amazing otherwise, though - good job with that, Logitech. Here's hoping the next model is a little lighter and has a normal cable.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I notice the same with my G100S which shares the same sensor (- the gyroscope).
> Cannot really tell if it's just me, but I tried many times now to get used to that sensor of the G100S and I just can't. The cursor/crosshair just never lands where I want it to. It immediately improves when I switch back to FK1 (3310), or WMO (MLT04), or EC2 eVo (3090).


I just noticed that too when playing CSGO, my crosshair never lands where I want it. It feels like I have negative/positive acceleration at the same time, its hard to explain. I'll give it another day then return it to bestbuy.


----------



## ronal

delete plz


----------



## e4stw00t

Anyone got a source for replacement feet yet? One of mine is pretty much gone (was already flawed at purchase). Don't want to RMA the unit if I can find replacement myself.


----------



## pips

My solution for the stiff cable is taping the cord onto the top end of the right side of my monitor with enough slack. Happy with the mouse.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e4stw00t*
> 
> Anyone got a source for replacement feet yet? One of mine is pretty much gone (was already flawed at purchase). Don't want to RMA the unit if I can find replacement myself.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Logitech-G402-Hotline-Games-Laser-Computer-Gaming-Mouse-Feet-Skates-/301324908348?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46285d373c


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> I just noticed that too when playing CSGO, my crosshair never lands where I want it. It feels like I have negative/positive acceleration at the same time, its hard to explain. I'll give it another day then return it to bestbuy.


Yep, acceleration is the key word that I thought about too when noticing this sensor behaviour.
First I thought it's the shape and weight, but 3 different sensor I immediately notice an improvement against the G100S?
I don't really trust this sensor because of that.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Yep, acceleration is the key word that I thought about too when noticing this sensor behaviour.
> First I thought it's the shape and weight, but 3 different sensor I immediately notice an improvement against the G100S?
> I don't really trust this sensor because of that.


Same, it happens in the G100S aswell, at first I thought it could be the light weight of the mouse but then when I tried the G402 the problem was still there. It sucks because the shape is great but something is wrong with the sensor. I'll be returning the mouse tomorrow to bestbuy.


----------



## frigidanchors

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Same, it happens in the G100S aswell, at first I thought it could be the light weight of the mouse but then when I tried the G402 the problem was still there. It sucks because the shape is great but something is wrong with the sensor. I'll be returning the mouse tomorrow to bestbuy.


In testing conditions (offline, just shooting at a wall), I'm finding it hard to consistently land on the same spot with the G402. However, the same thing happens with my WMO 1.1a, so I'm thinking the problem is more my testing method. During actual gameplay the G402 works pretty dang well.

EDIT: Scratch that, I was having Y-axis issues because the way my arm swings takes the mouse through an arc, when I correct for weird Y-axis problems, the mouse shows just a bit of acceleration.


----------



## DivineDark

I had to change out a burned up video card yesterday, so I've been playing a bunch of different games to test the new card for stability. The g402 has been fine for me. It's definitely a different animal for fps games than it is for strategy. The side buttons are a bit aggravating to use in faster paced settings where cursor control is important. The cursor seems okay... I have to correct my quick aim a bit. That's not made me happy, but I haven't tested it against other mice yet to rule out my horrid abilities.

I'm moving on to test some other mice in the same conditions. Going to the rival next, then the g502, then the fk1, then da, then kpm, finishing up with the avior. It'll take me some time, but I think these tests are more accurate for determining my preferences than just my normal game bias.


----------



## r0ach

There's almost no way to accurately measure the performance of a G402 because it would control exactly the same if you replaced their current cord with a dead trout. *Only by doing very small movements by someone that uses 800 DPI or more, not 400*, will you be able to notice irregularities. The cord tension will obscure all results moving the mouse large distances with 400 dpi.

When I tested it at 800, I noticed immediately that the cursor felt "swimmy" for lack of a better term. My next step was loading the software and comparing gyroscope on and off and I noticed a difference there.


----------



## hiccup

Does someone know what the mouse feet around the sensor are for? Mine just have started to peel off, so I've removed them completely.


----------



## e4stw00t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> There's almost no way to accurately measure the performance of a G402 because it would control exactly the same if you replaced their current cord with a dead trout. *Only by doing very small movements by someone that uses 800 DPI or more, not 400*, will you be able to notice irregularities. The cord tension will obscure all results moving the mouse large distances with 400 dpi.


Valid point - I am foremost playing at the 1.600 CPI range - at 400 I can't see the cord not skewing the test performance in a significant way.


----------



## boogdud

So has anyone tried swapping this high-tension wire, I mean cable, out for something with some flexibility? I'm honestly stunned this horrible thing made it past any kind of focus testing. I probably won't try to swap it out until there are some replacement feet out there. Was just wondering if anyone had tried a different cable.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boogdud*
> 
> So has anyone tried swapping this high-tension wire, I mean cable, out for something with some flexibility? I'm honestly stunned this horrible thing made it past any kind of focus testing. I probably won't try to swap it out until there are some replacement feet out there. Was just wondering if anyone had tried a different cable.


it works.
you might have to cut the stressrelief of the new cable to fit where it leaves the mouse at the front.
also you must make sure, that the wires are in the same order as in the old cable.


----------



## DivineDark

The cord isn't a problem for me at 800DPI. I use the bottom half of my mouse bungee and not the arm. It makes a tall arc of the cable and it stays there. I had more issues with the Rival cable yesterday than I did the G402.

Replacing the cable seems like a solid move, though. I'm sure we'll see a guide shortly. Sounds like this is a major issue for everyone.


----------



## 4514kaiser

Nice review i gave this mouse a go and imo it was great loved the shape and the button placement, not a big Snipe button fan but a least its not in the way on this mouse. On the G502 the snipe button is where my thumb should be, something quite unpleasant about trying to hold something by its buttons imo.


----------



## frigidanchors

Is there a way to run Mousetester outside of Visual Studio Express? I'm having to run Mousetester from within the Visual Studio Express (free, Desktop version) program.


----------



## hiccup

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hiccup*
> 
> Does someone know what the mouse feet around the sensor are for? Mine just have started to peel off, so I've removed them completely.


----------



## MasterBash

Its obviously to make sure that the bottom of the mouse doesnt drag on the mousepad when you put your hand on top of it.... The pressure it causes can "dig" into a cloth pad quite easily sometimes.

The G502 is awful in that regard, there is no mouse feet on the right side of mouse so if you put a bit of pressure on the right side, it drags a bit. Same goes for the bottom of the mouse, there is a "place holder" for the bottom mouse feet with sharp edge around it which causes drag when you apply some pressure on it.


----------



## e4stw00t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hiccup*


The are there to kill my cloth mat


----------



## frigidanchors

Here are some of my results. Can somebody who has experience reading these give some preliminary conclusions?


----------



## DivineDark

So, what's the verdict here? Have we decided? There have been a lot of mixed reviews as far as performance goes. Some are saying that the mouse is great and has a raw sensor with a crap cord. Others are saying that the sensor is inaccurate an has both negative and positive acceleration at the same time... Which I guess makes it magical. Also with a crap cord. The cord thing I understand, but I thought the g100 sensor was generally well thought of. I rarely hit the malfunction speed of the am101, so that doesn't bother me.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> So, what's the verdict here? Have we decided? There have been a lot of mixed reviews as far as performance goes. Some are saying that the mouse is great and has a raw sensor with a crap cord. Others are saying that the sensor is inaccurate an has both negative and positive acceleration at the same time... Which I guess makes it magical. Also with a crap cord. The cord thing I understand, but I thought the g100 sensor was generally well thought of. I rarely hit the malfunction speed of the am101, so that doesn't bother me.


G402 is less accurate than G100s. I believe it's due to the gyroscope and the mouse would be much better if they release a firmware to let you disable it.


----------



## frigidanchors

I'm personally loving the mouse. I'm not sure if I could tell the difference between this mouse's accuracy and the DA 2013's, the SS Rival's, and the WMO 1.1, without having them all in front of me. I can say that I'm liking the form factor of the G402 more than the other mice, with the exception of the WMO.

The G402 is fast, comfortable, and it comes with a stunning warranty behind it. Overall, it's just a better purchase than the mice I've mentioned. I would have liked to have tried the Zowie FK1, but I think I'll stick with the G402.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> So, what's the verdict here? Have we decided? There have been a lot of mixed reviews as far as performance goes. Some are saying that the mouse is great and has a raw sensor with a crap cord. Others are saying that the sensor is inaccurate an has both negative and positive acceleration at the same time... Which I guess makes it magical. Also with a crap cord. The cord thing I understand, but I thought the g100 sensor was generally well thought of. I rarely hit the malfunction speed of the am101, so that doesn't bother me.


It's a great mouse. Sure, it has neg accel, above a certain speed (3.5-4m/s), just as the G502. But it never loose track. Although it has poor performance on a worn QPAD Heaton. (G100s too) If you happy with the G100s' sensor, but you need higher PCS and a little bulkier body, go for it. I would pick the G402 against the G502 for sure. G502 is heavy as ****, and the scroll wheel annoys me.

The only downside(s) the G402 has, is the really stiff cord, and the ****ty scroll button. (And ofc I made some smooth hyperglides for it)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> G402 is less accurate than G100s.


Maybe so, but it's really not that significant than you state. ..and wont crap itself above ~2.7m/s.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> G402 is less accurate than G100s. I believe it's due to the gyroscope and the mouse would be much better if they release a firmware to let you disable it.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jaffa2843*
> 
> Maybe so, but it's really not that significant than you state. ..and wont crap itself above ~2.7m/s.


Well, to me the sensor of the G100S already feels less accurate than any other mouse I directly tested it against (Avior, FK1, FK, WMO).
It almost felt like slight acceleration problems sometimes, I still cannot truly say what it is though that destroys my precision on anything I wanted to do with that mouse. Be it in-game or desktop flicks, I couldn't be precise with the G100S, I always missed targets.


----------



## deepor

When you say you missed targets with your flicks, are you only talking about the movement or do you also include the button click?


----------



## detto87

No, just movement. Clicks felt really nice after a while and getting used to. They felt quick too, quick to respond.

But I couldn't get used to the cursor/crosshair feeling at all.
It is weird.
I thought that the weight was too low with the metal piece removed so I put that back in and tried again, but it was the same.
Not the only one mentioning that though.
Maybe not irrelevant, I ordered that G100S from a chinese or korean seller on eBay (high rated though) and it was a bulk version.
Maybe, just maybe, those are copied units or so, I doubt it though.


----------



## cuad

Didn't see this covered with a Google search, so...

The lift off distance (LOD) of this mouse is less than 2 CDs on my Puretrak Talent. The G402 tracks fine on 1 CD, but the cursor will not move at all on 2 CDs. 1 CD = 1mm, I believe.

Also, this mouse weighs somewhere between 105-110g according to my scale. How the cord rests impacts the weight, hence the range.


----------



## ramraze

Could someone who sanded down the right side lip please show some pics and give tips on how to do it? If they were posted earlier and I've missed it, please be so kind as to show me where. Thanx


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cuad*
> 
> Didn't see this covered with a Google search, so...
> 
> The lift off distance (LOD) of this mouse is less than 2 CDs on my Puretrak Talent. The G402 tracks fine on 1 CD, but the cursor will not move at all on 2 CDs. 1 CD = 1mm, I believe.
> 
> Also, this mouse weighs somewhere between 105-110g according to my scale. How the cord rests impacts the weight, hence the range.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> *Lift Off Distance*
> 
> Between 1 and 2 CD on black cloth, being closer to 1 CD. It's generally very low.


----------



## Blashyrkh

if you ask me, saying that this mouse is not precise enough is BS.at least for my playstyle, it is the same of the g502.

just to let understand how i play, this is a little movie i made while playing with g502+mm600:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZx91y-Ez_Y

after that,I bought the qck+ and the g402 some weeks ago. after many hours of testing this combo, I felt the mouse to be quite precise, but not able anymore to make those fast flickshots...something was wrong.
obviusly it was a mousepad problem. i switched to the mm600 with the g402...and it was headshotkilling again.

unluckily my playstyle suffers when i use those slow clothpads. too bad there aren't hardpads of the same size of the qck+...
but honestly i feel that the g402 sensor is top notch


----------



## metal571

Cloth is generally better for low sens but if you're used to hard mats it's very weird to go to cloth suddenly.

AM010 has really good surface compatibility for an optical. I'm impressed by it as well.


----------



## Blashyrkh

i play with a relatively low sensivity ~40/360 ...it is not very low, but definately low,and that's why i would be much more comfortable with a bigger mousepad...mm600 is still too small even if i can play without many problems.
i played with the g240 cloth, and then switched to the mm600....i think it's about me, not about the sensivity i use....
even if cloth pads give you better control, it seems that my movements are slower due to friction...friction that i do not need at all.


----------



## metal571

Just saw the video, that makes more sense in a game like that especially if your preference is the single shot weapons and snipers.


----------



## Blashyrkh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Just saw the video, that makes more sense in a game like that especially if your preference is the single shot weapons and snipers.


yes but you must consider that whatever weapon you use, flickshot is a flickshot, and if you are slow or not accurate you miss and you are dead (the enemy can youse the same one hit weapons).

however the video is made to have a spectacular impact, i play equally with sniper and assault rifles


----------



## metal571

In my experience with hard mats they didn't really improve me or hurt me but I definitely found myself needing more force to get the mouse to stop and prevent my aim from being floaty due to so much lack of friction. It just depends.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blashyrkh*
> 
> if you ask me, saying that this mouse is not precise enough is BS.at least for my playstyle, it is the same of the g502.
> 
> just to let understand how i play, this is a little movie i made while playing with g502+mm600:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZx91y-Ez_Y
> 
> after that,I bought the qck+ and the g402 some weeks ago. after many hours of testing this combo, I felt the mouse to be quite precise, but not able anymore to make those fast flickshots...something was wrong.
> obviusly it was a mousepad problem. i switched to the mm600 with the g402...and it was headshotkilling again.
> 
> unluckily my playstyle suffers when i use those slow clothpads. too bad there aren't hardpads of the same size of the qck+...
> but honestly i feel that the g402 sensor is top notch


TBH, and don't take this personally, I don't see any impressive skills/kills there.







But maybe that's just me.


----------



## Blashyrkh

honestly,
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> TBH, and don't take this personally, I don't see any impressive skills/kills there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But maybe that's just me.


honestly, i am no pro and it's just to show my playstyle.
i'm eager to see some of your vids to see your skills/kills and learn something


----------



## Blashyrkh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> In my experience with hard mats they didn't really improve me or hurt me but I definitely found myself needing more force to get the mouse to stop and prevent my aim from being floaty due to so much lack of friction. It just depends.


yes i think it's a matter of preference, for me for example the problem is the force needed to start moving the mouse, not stopping it


----------



## Falkentyne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> There's almost no way to accurately measure the performance of a G402 because it would control exactly the same if you replaced their current cord with a dead trout. *Only by doing very small movements by someone that uses 800 DPI or more, not 400*, will you be able to notice irregularities. The cord tension will obscure all results moving the mouse large distances with 400 dpi.
> 
> When I tested it at 800, I noticed immediately that the cursor felt "swimmy" for lack of a better term. My next step was loading the software and comparing gyroscope on and off and I noticed a difference there.


swamp cursor <3


----------



## Tattoedsailor

I had G400 for years and was very happy with it... Don't know why I switched to a deathadder 2013. I cant stand the software.. I think its time I get a 402! Thanks for the excellent review!!


----------



## treach

Any news for a update on the y-Axis fail?


----------



## DivineDark

Firmware hasn't been patched yet.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treach*
> 
> Any news for a update on the y-Axis fail?


Is it really necesseary to patch that y-axis "problem"? You will never hit the malfunction speed of the sensor on the y-axis.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jaffa2843*
> 
> Is it really necesseary to patch that y-axis "problem"? You will never hit the malfunction speed of the sensor on the y-axis.


I don't think it's necessary either.


----------



## L4dd

I'm more upset by the fact that it is advertised as having all of those IPS, without specifically stating on the X-axis only; it shouldn't malfunction in normal gameplay, but I encourage owners to try to make it malfunction to know possible situations to avoid.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> I don't think it's necessary either.


Uh, some kind of patch with this mouse is necessary when it tracks way less accurate than 3600 DPI G400.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Uh, some kind of patch with this mouse is necessary when it tracks way less accurate than 3600 DPI G400.


Haven't had that issue. Most people haven't had that issue.


----------



## justnvc

Apparent firmware update to ensure identical X/Y axis fusion performance (released 14th October 2014): https://support.logitech.com/en_gb/product/g402-hyperion-fury-fps-gaming-mouse

or direct: http://www.logitech.com/pub/techsupport/gaming/G402Update_90.2.17.exe

Performance on both axis still seems to be different for me though?!


----------



## treach

Wow almost 2 weeks and your the only guy that noticed it







gonna make before and after tests

Edit: okay, the y-axis speed is now higher, but it still spazzes out when you do fast circles


----------



## iceskeleton

Also strange how the logitech game software did not pick up there was an update for the firmware, I had to do it manually.


----------



## Jonagold

I am pretty sure that I know what is the problem for those talking about missing flick-shoots..

It is about mouse click, Logitech will not add any delay to mouse clicks like other companies are doing..

Logitech has almost 0ms delay when it comes to mouse clicks.. Other companies tend to have some delay in their mouse clicks and when you get used to the delay, you will always press too early when using a proper mouse without delay..

Logitech - 0ms

SteelSeries - 5-30ms

Zowie - 10-35ms

http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison


----------



## detto87

That's why general statements like "lower latency is better" are not always true for everyone.
The whole mouse just has to fit the user and he needs to get used to it.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> That's why general statements like "lower latency is better" are not always true for everyone.
> The whole mouse just has to fit the user and he needs to get used to it.


That is why the latency should be adjustable.. 0ms latency is actually better in any cases, the problem is that because of bad products of other companies people had to get used for the latency and therefore it became a part of their muscle memory...


----------



## Torongo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I am pretty sure that I know what is the problem for those talking about missing flick-shoots..
> 
> It is about mouse click, Logitech will not add any delay to mouse clicks like other companies are doing..
> 
> Logitech has almost 0ms delay when it comes to mouse clicks.. Other companies tend to have some delay in their mouse clicks and when you get used to the delay, you will always press too early when using a proper mouse without delay..
> 
> Logitech - 0ms
> 
> SteelSeries - 5-30ms
> 
> Zowie - 10-35ms
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison


Quote:


> for various mice, *using the G300 as a reference (that's why faster mice have negative values)*


It doesn't mean that Logitech have 0ms lag, it means that some mice are better or worse in that manner


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Torongo*
> 
> It doesn't mean that Logitech have 0ms lag, it means that some mice are better or worse in that manner


It actually means, because ALL Logitech products have very close to 0ms delay where other companies have those various results..


----------



## Torongo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> It actually means, because ALL Logitech products have very close to 0ms delay where other companies have those various results..


If they had "0ms" (which is impossible in practice), then every button on their products would have double click issue in a matter of DAYS, if not HOURS.

But, if you actually have some input-lag-measurer-that-not-affected-by-usb-controller-cpu-bottlenecks-ram-timings-and-so-on device then I actually want to see your investigations in this topic.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Torongo*
> 
> If they had "0ms" (which is impossible in practice), then every button on their products would have double click issue in a matter of DAYS, if not HOURS.
> 
> But, if you actually have some input-lag-measurer-that-not-affected-by-usb-controller-cpu-bottlenecks-ram-timings-and-so-on device then I actually want to see your investigations in this topic.


You can test the difference between 2 mice with Mouse Click Response Speed Testing Software Download: http://www.bloody.com/en/download.php

Or just check the results here http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison

I believe the testing method is explained in the blog where those results are taken from..

And It is true that double -click issue will easily become a problem with low latency, but Logitech seems to have solved that problem.. At least my old Logitech g9x never had the issue and yet performed with close to 0ms delay.. However my current mouse a cheaper Logitech g100s has a problem but I wouldn't call it a double-click issue, The button seems to easily register the click lasting too long, which causes problem when trying to shoot 1 bullet at a time in Counter-Strike, causing 1 bullet tap to go for 2 bullets..


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> You can test the difference between 2 mice with Mouse Click Response Speed Testing Software Download: http://www.bloody.com/en/download.php
> 
> Or just check the results here http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison
> 
> I believe the testing method is explained in the blog where those results are taken from..
> 
> And It is true that double -click issue will easily become a problem with low latency, but Logitech seems to have solved that problem.. At least my old Logitech g9x never had the issue and yet performed with close to 0ms delay.. However my current mouse a cheaper Logitech g100s has a problem but I wouldn't call it a double-click issue, The button seems to easily register the click lasting too long, which causes problem when trying to shoot 1 bullet at a time in Counter-Strike, causing 1 bullet tap to go for 2 bullets..


If you mean the test from rafalog, not it's more advanced,

He/she hard wires an switch to both mouse and connect to a computer and let a program to see the latency for both button.

This is why it's considered reliable


----------



## kicksome

I'm so tempted to buy this mouse but there is one thing stopping me.... the placement of the sniper button. I wont ever have a need for the button, dont care for it in anyway and every pic i look at it looks like it will just get in my way. I had my hands on a g502 the other day in the shop and the sniper button on that didnt get in my way, but the 402 it looks to be placed back a little more, closert to the back of the mouse making me think it will just get in my way.
Can anyone comment on this?
i will be coming from a g400 if that helps


----------



## zalbard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> I'm so tempted to buy this mouse but there is one thing stopping me.... the placement of the sniper button. I wont ever have a need for the button, dont care for it in anyway and every pic i look at it looks like it will just get in my way. I had my hands on a g502 the other day in the shop and the sniper button on that didnt get in my way, but the 402 it looks to be placed back a little more, closert to the back of the mouse making me think it will just get in my way.


It's obviously designed s.t. it can be easily reached. So you won't feel like sniper button isn't there. I don't use it often and it doesn't bother me much, though. But YMMV.


----------



## maxvons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> I'm so tempted to buy this mouse but there is one thing stopping me.... the placement of the sniper button. I wont ever have a need for the button, dont care for it in anyway and every pic i look at it looks like it will just get in my way. I had my hands on a g502 the other day in the shop and the sniper button on that didnt get in my way, but the 402 it looks to be placed back a little more, closert to the back of the mouse making me think it will just get in my way.
> Can anyone comment on this?
> i will be coming from a g400 if that helps


I found the G402's sniper button to be placed further away than on the G502.


----------



## e4stw00t

I can't confirm that - really need to stretch my hand to reach the sniper button in a quiet unnatural way - never would hold my mouse like that, which made me ask myself why do they add that button in the first place for you not to be able to reach it comfortably. Since I don't use it I am glad they have that odd concept in place .


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Torongo*
> 
> It doesn't mean that Logitech have 0ms lag, it means that some mice are better or worse in that manner


but it seems, that Logitech doesn't have additional lag.


----------



## ramraze

I guess it depends how you grip it. I have medium to semilarge hands and the way I grip the mouse, the button is a great source of frustration.

If I wanted to grip the mouse so that my thumb rests before the button, I would have to claw my fingers quite a lot. Like some kind of bold American eagle. Makes me feel like smashing it against the wall. Every mouse out there is ruined by some BS for nooblets who need 10 000 dpi or who knows what. For me the g402 was mediocre because of design issues. Great sensor, grear shape, ruined because of some small bs design decisions. Well, like I said, depends on how you grip it.


----------



## Torongo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> but it seems, that Logitech doesn't have additional lag.


It doesn't mean that Logitech is full lag-free, so saying that Logitech products have 0ms latency is false.


----------



## un1que

same problem,the Y-axis is so damn slow


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un1que*
> 
> same problem,the Y-axis is so damn slow


In what realistic situation do you need more than 2.7m/s on the Y-axis?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I guess it depends how you grip it. I have medium to semilarge hands and the way I grip the mouse, the button is a great source of frustration.
> 
> If I wanted to grip the mouse so that my thumb rests before the button, I would have to claw my fingers quite a lot. Like some kind of bold American eagle. Makes me feel like smashing it against the wall. Every mouse out there is ruined by some BS for nooblets who need 10 000 dpi or who knows what. For me the g402 was mediocre because of design issues. Great sensor, grear shape, ruined because of some small bs design decisions. Well, like I said, depends on how you grip it.


Can you open the mouse and disable/mod the button?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> In what realistic situation do you need more than 2.7m/s on the Y-axis?


Yes, I have the Logitech g100s and it very rarely malfunctions, and when it does, it is after a long fast vertical swipe..


----------



## un1que

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> In what realistic situation do you need more than 2.7m/s on the Y-axis?


well...i just updated the mice to the latest firmware and i haven't tried it yet but with the old firmware feels just way too slow for my taste.The problem is related to the sensitivity difference.


----------



## ramraze

I did, but it doesn't fix the problem. At least it is not a permanent fix since you have to put tape or replace it after a while.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I did, but it doesn't fix the problem. At least it is not a permanent fix since you have to put tape or replace it after a while.


How about pressing the button down and using hot glue on it?


----------



## ramraze

The button is not the core issue, but a side issue. I can't use this mouse anyway because of the right side and being mega back heavy. But I already fixed the sniper button.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> In what realistic situation do you need more than 2.7m/s on the Y-axis?


I can't think of am FPS game that needs super fast vertical swipes.


----------



## semantics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> In what realistic situation do you need more than 2.7m/s on the Y-axis?
> 
> 
> 
> I can't think of am FPS game that needs super fast vertical swipes.
Click to expand...

Flight games would be the only situation i could think of where heavy vertical swipes would be a thing.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> I can't think of am FPS game that needs super fast vertical swipes.


you might hit over 2.7ms when you rocketjump in quake, with a serious lowsens.


----------



## Blashyrkh

But y axis issue doesn't affect diagonal swipes too?


----------



## frigidanchors

If you look, my y-axis swipes peaked at about 6 m/s, with 4 m/s the most common peak speed. I might have been able to swipe even faster, but gripping the mouse perpendicular to the way it's meant to be gripped was awkward to say the least. I think I had my right thumb pressing down the left click button, and the rest of my hand palming the mouse, as I did my best to swipe in this way.



Here's a crude picture to show what I mean.


----------



## treach

@Frigi what was is your highest x-axis speed, my record was 6.8


----------



## frigidanchors

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frigidanchors*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some of my results. Can somebody who has experience reading these give some preliminary conclusions?


I posted this before, specifically this picture:



If the software is to be believed, I averaged around 10 m/s peaks, and even hit (***) around 13 m/s, which translates to about 510 inches per second. Something tells me this might be incorrect, so I can do another set of measurements.


----------



## jaffa2843

Soo many dumb "tests" here, OMG...


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frigidanchors*
> 
> I posted this before, specifically this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> If the software is to be believed, I averaged around 10 m/s peaks, and even hit (***) around 13 m/s, which translates to about 510 inches per second. Something tells me this might be incorrect, so I can do another set of measurements.


You should probably re-measure the CPI, because reaching 13 m/s on a mouse swipe is pretty damn fast. If everything is correct I'd say apply for the Olympics in some throwing discipline, because you are superhuman


----------



## treach

100% they didnt apply correct dpi values, although 10m/s should be possible on a giant mousepad


----------



## marduke83

So I went from a g502 to the g402 (just wanted to try it) and I like it, but I have a question. I had 600dpi for the 502 for cs-go and other fps games, but I set it to as close as I could get to 600 (as the 402 is only in 80dpi increments) and it felt alot faster.. is that normal between different sensors? I have to use 400 to get the same 'speed'/feeling as the 502. Thanks in advance.


----------



## metal571

Not that strange. Test the real CPI with something like Enotus.


----------



## frigidanchors

Lel, so this more accurately reflects my speed. I must have done the other test at 800 dpi. So peak speeds are at about 5.X m/s, and on various tests I hit that 10 m/s mark, though I doubt that's actually the case. Maybe I lift the mouse up and the resulting readings from the mouse cause weird peaks like the one seen here.

All in all, this mouse feels so fast in TF2, and works great in CS:GO as well. The mouse pads are pretty great and make the mouse feel physically fast, and I've got no problems with the sensor either. The game and I are one when I play with this. The same might be able to be said of the DA 2013 and SS Rival, both of which I have tried, but since I don't have them in front of me I can't really compare. The WMO was great, but that low PCS just wasn't cutting it. I wonder if the G100s would have been just as good for me, or even better. Who knows.


----------



## blacklotus1802

Now Fusion Engine = Acceleration ???
It moves very fast


----------



## metal571

Fast simply means whatever you were used to probably had a different real CPI


----------



## CadZz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treach*
> 
> Wow almost 2 weeks and your the only guy that noticed it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gonna make before and after tests
> 
> Edit: okay, the y-axis speed is now higher, but it still spazzes out when you do fast circles


Install the Update or not ?? the Software (90.1.15) find nothing


----------



## treach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CadZz*
> 
> Install the Update or not ?? the Software (90.1.15) find nothing


was already posted, here you go

http://www.logitech.com/pub/techsupport/gaming/G402Update_90.2.17.exe


----------



## marduke83

Still loving this mouse (the shape, how light it is compared to the g502, the sensor etc) except for one thing, the button clicks are significantly heavier than the g502 (which I was used to), now using the g402 I found I'm mis-clicking when AWPing in CSGO. Maybe I just need to get used to the heavier buttons, but it's really frustrating, especially when facing another AWPer and I would have got the kill if I was using the g502... That is the only thing stopping me from being 100% satisfied with the g402. But I'll give it more time and see if my muscle memory starts to compensate for the heavier buttons.


----------



## 4514kaiser

Yer Just final bought this mouse went from a DA 3.5 to this i'm surprised how quickly i'm getting used to it clicks seem far light but seem to have more travel distance overall my CSGO game has stayed much the same still terrible









The cord is pretty terrible however ive manage to make it spiral into the air which mean it does not catch on anything or offer any resistance would highly recommend giving that a go to anyone having issues!


----------



## mksteez

Going to give this mice a try since I did not like the G302 shape at all.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marduke83*
> 
> Still loving this mouse (the shape, how light it is compared to the g502, the sensor etc) except for one thing, the button clicks are significantly heavier than the g502 (which I was used to), now using the g402 I found I'm mis-clicking when AWPing in CSGO.


I wouldn't worry about the omrons in the G302 because if you don't get use to them, then simply take it apart and de-solder the old versions and replace them with the softer Japanese ones.


----------



## mksteez

I need to add extra mouse feet because the LOD is a little high for me. Can anyone recommend me one?


----------



## jaffa2843

Anyone experiencing some pixel walk after the FW update? Also the LOD just became crazy low. If I leave the mouse on tha pad, the coursor starts moving slowly pixel-by-pixel.


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jaffa2843*
> 
> Anyone experiencing some pixel walk after the FW update? Also the LOD just became crazy low. If I leave the mouse on tha pad, the coursor starts moving slowly pixel-by-pixel.


No, maybe check if there is anything on the sensor or try a different mousepad (or no mousepad) and see if it happens again.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iceskeleton*
> 
> No, maybe check if there is anything on the sensor or try a different mousepad (or no mousepad) and see if it happens again.


The problem is gone. The PCB was misplaced after swapping the switches to Omron Japan.







All good now.


----------



## the1onewolf

Is this a suitable replacement for somebody who already has a revised g400 or is the g402 more of a side-grade?


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1onewolf*
> 
> Is this a suitable replacement for somebody who already has a revised g400 or is the g402 more of a side-grade?


Replacement if it has something that you want


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1onewolf*
> 
> Is this a suitable replacement for somebody who already has a revised g400 or is the g402 more of a side-grade?


The clicks are better, the scroll wheel is harder to click, the cord is less prone to damage/wear and some find it hard to move (I just put it on the back of my XL2411t monitor no problems), and probably the "biggest" change is that the right side isn't as pronounced as the g400. For me the g400 use to hurt my ring finger after some time gaming because of the way I held the mouse, so that is why I opted to get the g402. The sensor and feeling (tested @800 dpi) was practically the same for me.

Another thing is that there was really only 2 native dpi steps in the g400 (iirc 800 and 3200), so I guess the g402 gives you more freedom in that regard too. It can also track higher with the fusion engine if you move your mouse inhuman fast. You come to realise how such a gimmick this fusion engine really is and how the 3366 would've made more sense, but Logitech had to do something different I guess


----------



## hza

More or less different audience. 3366 is a more expensive sensor arch, or let's say it's made for more expensive mice. Wouldn't be logical for me to put it into cheap(er) ones.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> More or less different audience. 3366 is a more expensive sensor arch, or let's say it's made for more expensive mice. Wouldn't be logical for me to put it into cheap(er) ones.


So make the mouse more expensive and change nothing but the sensor..?

They refuse to sell any mouse with 3366 aside from huge g502 with tons of added stuff on it, because that's what an "expensive" mouse is to them. If it's too costly to add it to smaller shell, raise the price.. If the price is too high for just a smaller shell than g502 with 3366, then lower the price. What's the big deal? People WILL pay a premium for the best hardware, and it doesn't even seem to be a big premium


----------



## hza

What certain things mean to you doesn't need to be the same for others. On german amazon 502 costs 60 Euro (from 80), 402 costs 50 Euro (from 55 or so). Not much room left.


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> More or less different audience. 3366 is a more expensive sensor arch, or let's say it's made for more expensive mice. Wouldn't be logical for me to put it into cheap(er) ones.


I don't know about that, over here I can get the g402 for $47 compared to $53 of the g502.


----------



## hza

What I meant. MSRP has a bigger difference though. G402 for 59.99 USD and G502 for 79.99 USD.


----------



## fuzzybass

Well, I just got this G402 mouse, and my first impression is... I'm actually quite impressed. It's not that it's an OMG AMAZING mouse, but it's the least offensive of the mice I've most recently purchased so far (FK1, KPM, and Avior). The shape is good, it's lighter than the G502, the clicks aren't as heavy as the FK1's, and the scroll wheel isn't that bad either. It might not excel at any one thing, but there aren't any big deal breakers, either. So I think I'll keep it.

My only gripe is... did anyone else's mouse come with their left mouse button already clicked in the box? Because it seems that the transparent plastic molding that holds the mouse inside the box is bad, and naturally presses the left mouse button. I'm thinking maybe the left mouse button has been pressed the entire time it's been in the box... which doesn't make me feel good about its longevity.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fuzzybass*
> 
> I'm thinking maybe the left mouse button has been pressed the entire time it's been in the box... which doesn't make me feel good about its longevity.


Relax, I have a G500 which had it's left button pressed down in it's package due to rough handling during transit and it still works nicely after all these years, never had to replace it - yet.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fuzzybass*
> 
> Well, I just got this G402 mouse, and my first impression is... I'm actually quite impressed. It's not that it's an OMG AMAZING mouse, but it's the least offensive of the mice I've most recently purchased so far (FK1, KPM, and Avior). The shape is good, it's lighter than the G502, the clicks aren't as heavy as the FK1's, and the scroll wheel isn't that bad either. It might not excel at any one thing, but there aren't any big deal breakers, either. So I think I'll keep it.
> 
> My only gripe is... did anyone else's mouse come with their left mouse button already clicked in the box? Because it seems that the transparent plastic molding that holds the mouse inside the box is bad, and naturally presses the left mouse button. I'm thinking maybe the left mouse button has been pressed the entire time it's been in the box... which doesn't make me feel good about its longevity.


Just curious what your dealbreakers were for the other mice you listed.


----------



## fuzzybass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Just curious what your dealbreakers were for the other mice you listed.


Oh, man... this is hard to talk about, since I know you're such a big fan of the FK1 and the Avior.







I guess I should say this with the caveat that I haven't used these mice for extended periods of time (just a few days), so it's certainly possible my mind would be different if I had given them more time.

But... with the FK1 it is the harder clicks. I know to a lot of people it's not a big deal, but I primarily play spammy games like Dota 2 and Diablo 3, where kiting is also really important. The harder clicks strains my grip ever so slightly when I'm spamming clicks, and that gets uncomfortable over time - I can see how with FPS's, since they're not as spammy, that the FK1 wouldn't be a problem.

The Avior has a shape I couldn't really get used to. I would say it's the "least worst" out of the three I mentioned, but I just didn't like the way that its big back-end kind of forced my hands and fingers to go more forward into the mouse. If I had no choice but to use the Avior, sure, I could use it, but I still wanted to find alternatives, and now I that I've found the G402, I think I prefer the G402 - at least in terms of shape (I understand the Avior might have a better sensor and whatnot).

And finally, the KPM has amazing build quality. I would say it has the best build quality out of all the four mice, but I personally couldn't handle its grip. It locks your hand into a tight claw-grip, and while I am a claw-grip/finger-tip grip guy, the way it forced that grip on you was pretty rough and uncomfortable. In terms of shape, I would say the KPM was the worst out of all four.

So... there you have it! I hope I didn't offend you or anything - I fully understand this is all preference, and that you prefer the Avior and FK1 over the G402, which I don't have a problem with at all.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fuzzybass*
> 
> Oh, man... this is hard to talk about, since I know you're such a big fan of the FK1 and the Avior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I should say this with the caveat that I haven't used these mice for extended periods of time (just a few days), so it's certainly possible my mind would be different if I had given them more time.
> 
> But... with the FK1 it is the harder clicks. I know to a lot of people it's not a big deal, but I primarily play spammy games like Dota 2 and Diablo 3, where kiting is also really important. The harder clicks strains my grip ever so slightly when I'm spamming clicks, and that gets uncomfortable over time - I can see how with FPS's, since they're not as spammy, that the FK1 wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> The Avior has a shape I couldn't really get used to. I would say it's the "least worst" out of the three I mentioned, but I just didn't like the way that its big back-end kind of forced my hands and fingers to go more forward into the mouse. If I had no choice but to use the Avior, sure, I could use it, but I still wanted to find alternatives, and now I that I've found the G402, I think I prefer the G402 - at least in terms of shape (I understand the Avior might have a better sensor and whatnot).
> 
> And finally, the KPM has amazing build quality. I would say it has the best build quality out of all the four mice, but I personally couldn't handle its grip. It locks your hand into a tight claw-grip, and while I am a claw-grip/finger-tip grip guy, the way it forced that grip on you was pretty rough and uncomfortable. In terms of shape, I would say the KPM was the worst out of all four.
> 
> So... there you have it! I hope I didn't offend you or anything - I fully understand this is all preference, and that you prefer the Avior and FK1 over the G402, which I don't have a problem with at all.


Has nothing to do with being offended. I'm not the kind of guy that takes one stance on everything unlike so many others on here. In fact I was just using the G402 yesterday and it is awesome. Nothing wrong with the sensor at all. The FK1 sounds very bad for you since you play some MOBAs. The Avior does have a weird shape that I feel is best suited for fingertip players and maybe claw, but not likely palm as you would be hitting the right side buttons.


----------



## gregtorn

one small question. i`m planning on buying G402 but i use win XP - will Logitech Gaming Software thats supports G402 work with win XP?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gregtorn*
> 
> one small question. i`m planning on buying G402 but i use win XP - will Logitech Gaming Software thats supports G402 work with win XP?


May as well install it now and see if the software will work before you buy it.


----------



## gregtorn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> May as well install it now and see if the software will work before you buy it.


none of the builds of Logitech Gaming Software is installing =( it looks like no g402 for me =(


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gregtorn*
> 
> none of the builds of Logitech Gaming Software is installing =( it looks like no g402 for me =(


Just curious: why still use XP?


----------



## gregtorn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Just curious: why still use XP?


work related software that doesn't work on win 7,8


----------



## jaffa2843

Just set up the mouse on a win7 pc and save it to the mouse, duh.


----------



## detto87

That's what virtual machines are for. Especially for such cases.


----------



## doomleika

well you are not supposed to use xp at this point unless it's controlled network environment.

It's just a matter of time before one of hundreds of exploit find you,


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gregtorn*
> 
> none of the builds of Logitech Gaming Software is installing =( it looks like no g402 for me =(


As other have said you can set up the mouse on a different PC or upgrade and throw XP on a VM.

I suggest the latter.


----------



## deepor

Yeah, you can set the mouse up with whatever settings you like best on another PC. It will be saved inside the mouse, and the mouse then does everything by itself without the software, even sending keyboard key presses.

The only feature the software has that won't work is that it can detect which program is currently running in the front and then use a different profile.


----------



## jayfkay

the g402 uses onboard memory right?
so I can install software, deactivate that silly sniper button and uninstall it again, right?


----------



## trhead

^ Yes. Make your adjustments then uninstall.


----------



## jayfkay

what would be the recommended DPI steps on this mouse?
600? 1000? 2600? 800?


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> what would be the recommended DPI steps on this mouse?
> 600? 1000? 2600? 800?


I would assume all would be native


----------



## jayfkay

Alright. And what is this gyroscope people talk about exactly doing? assuming it is making the mouse worse, cant you simply remove it?
edit: im reading Inos posts in r0achs thread right now, nvm
gonna order this beauty cuz Im curious to try sth new


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> Alright. And what is this gyroscope people talk about exactly doing? assuming it is making the mouse worse, cant you simply remove it?


I noticed a difference between switching gyroscope on and off with the software open, but since you can't save the setting to on-board memory, it's impossible to test how it affects the mouse without software installed. G302 is the obvious safter choice since it doesn't have one.


----------



## metal571

I felt zero difference, worked real well for me but obviously results vary depending on how "optimized" your PC is, lol


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> I felt zero difference, worked real well for me but obviously results vary depending on how "optimized" your PC is, lol


Whatever, you didn't notice a difference in 3 different versions of Avior firmware where lag was progressively reduced in all of them while everyone else did. People that use low sens and 400 DPI are probably not good candiates to test cursor response either. That stuff has to be tested by higher sens / 800 DPI players.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Whatever, you didn't notice a difference in 3 different versions of Avior firmware where lag was progressively reduced in all of them while everyone else did. People that use low sens and 400 DPI are probably not good candiates to test cursor response either. That stuff has to be tested by higher sens / 800 DPI players.


Doesn't Max use like around 2 sens in CS and yet apparently the MLT04 is the only sensor ever worth using?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> Alright. And what is this gyroscope people talk about exactly doing? assuming it is making the mouse worse, cant you simply remove it?
> edit: im reading Inos posts in r0achs thread right now, nvm
> gonna order this beauty cuz Im curious to try sth new


Gyroscope will not hinder performance period.


----------



## trhead

^ perfect example of placebo


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Doesn't Max use like around 2 sens in CS and yet apparently the MLT04 is the only sensor ever worth using?


If you mean Max Kohler, he's using about ~3.6 last time I asked.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> ^ perfect example of placebo


Do you have any proof of negative interference? Will we play Oprah and have you express how your feelings tell you it feels wrong? The Fusion Engine is fine and functional.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Will we play Oprah and have you express how your feelings tell you it feels wrong? The Fusion Engine is fine and functional.


Or maybe get Dr.Phil to have a look at his problem with the G402 because it sounds like some other issues that may be affecting his perception of the Fury







.


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> The Fusion Engine is fine and functional.


Yes, I agree. That reply was for r0ach. Sorry.

These people turn fusion engine on and they can just feeeel the extra lag but in reality there is none


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Yes, I agree. That reply was for r0ach. Sorry.
> 
> These people turn fusion engine on and they can just feeeel the extra lag but in reality there is none


No biggie. as long as the truth stays out there.


----------



## Axaion

So they fixed the issue with moving the mouse up and down fast, or doing circles in general quickly?

When it released i remember some ... dramatic issues around that, was there a firmware update?


----------



## hza

You mean this? http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/11599 "Updated Fusion Engine now has identical tracking speed performance on both the X and Y axes."?


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> You mean this? http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/11599 "Updated Fusion Engine now has identical tracking speed performance on both the X and Y axes."?


Thats probably it yeah.

I did remember correctly


----------



## SmashTV

Got this the other day as my G602 is now on laptop duties. The cord is actually great as the stiffness fits my DIY bungee solution. Sensor is great, buttons are responsive, and the sniper button isn't in the way for me. 10/10 would next day ship again.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Yes, I agree. That reply was for r0ach. Sorry.
> 
> These people turn fusion engine on and they can just feeeel the extra lag but in reality there is none


When I first got mine, it was pretty easy to notice a difference in flipping the Gyrscope switch on and off in the drivers. I also performed significantly worse with the mouse than a Kana v2, 3600 DPI G400, and Avior 7000. I'm not sure why people would risk it and buy G402 over a G302. I have a G302 coming monday, so I'll see if lack of gyroscope makes any difference in the sensor. I'm also never installing the drivers even once and only using 800 DPI / 1000hz via the DPI changing button on top of the mouse.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> When I first got mine, it was pretty easy to notice a difference in flipping the Gyrscope switch on and off in the drivers. I also performed significantly worse with the mouse than a Kana v2, 3600 DPI G400, and Avior 7000. I'm not sure why people would risk it and buy G402 over a G302. I have a G302 coming monday, so I'll see if lack of gyroscope makes any difference in the sensor. I'm also never installing the drivers even once and only using 800 DPI / 1000hz via the DPI changing button on top of the mouse.


They had a lot of testers who didn't notice anything. Your personal experiences are subject to expectation bias and therefore suspect.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> They had a lot of testers who didn't notice anything. Your personal experiences are subject to expectation bias and therefore suspect.


in @r0ach 's defense here..

I question the quality of their testers when they didnt catch the Z axis bug before release.

Such things should never, ever. make it through testing.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> in @r0ach 's defense here..
> 
> I question the quality of their testers when they didnt catch the Z axis bug before release.
> 
> Such things should never, ever. make it through testing.


There is no Z-Axis bug on the G402, there never was.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> There is no Z-Axis bug on the G402, there never was.


He meant the Y-axis. You could provoke that bug by doing very large, very fast circles on the mousepad (it's fixed in the current firmware).


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> in @r0ach 's defense here..
> 
> I question the quality of their testers when they didnt catch the Z axis bug before release.
> 
> Such things should never, ever. make it through testing.


Nobody swipes in very fast circles in normal gameplay. We may like to test mice in unrealistic ways to see their capabilities we shouldn't forget that normal gameplay it what really matters.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> He meant the Y-axis. You could provoke that bug by doing very large, very fast circles on the mousepad (it's fixed in the current firmware).


Yeah, sorry, thanks deepor.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Nobody swipes in very fast circles in normal gameplay. We may like to test mice in unrealistic ways to see their capabilities we shouldn't forget that normal gameplay it what really matters.


"Just because -I- dont move the mouse like that means -no one else does-"


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> in @r0ach 's defense here..
> 
> I question the quality of their testers when they didnt catch the Z axis bug before release.
> 
> Such things should never, ever. make it through testing.


Dont forget that the second G400, the 4000 DPI version supposedly had different X and Y axis tracking. I didn't own one myself, but lots of people said this was an issue. You can't claim the mice are perfect because they made it through testers considering two mice in a row had issues like this.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Yeah, sorry, thanks deepor.
> "Just because -I- dont move the mouse like that means -no one else does-"


Give a realistic scenario where you'd possibly move the mouse in circles at such extreme speeds.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Yeah, sorry, thanks deepor.
> "Just because -I- dont move the mouse like that means -no one else does-"


Apparently nobody did move the mouse like that in any testing scenario.
It was found out publicly by someone who tilted his mouse 90 degrees to be able to do fast arm swipes on the y-axis to make the G402 malfunction. Logitech knew about that as they told the people in Lausanne. It was only programmed to work within a certain set of degrees from the x-axis, because all recorded fast motion was within that spectrum.
The circle thing was independent from the y-axis not using the gyro btw, and still the only real world usage scenario for that would be OSU maybe, but even there you don't do circles that fast.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Give a realistic scenario where you'd possibly move the mouse in circles at such extreme speeds.


Osu! for example

Depending of what game you play it could be needed aswell, if you have a game where theres tons of looking up too, like flight sims (Elite: dangerous or something) it can happen.

Seeing as a mouse from 1999 did not exhibit this issue, there is no excuse for even defending why the bug should have gotten through, thankfully they fixed it, so it must be an issue if they fixed it, no?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Apparently nobody did move the mouse like that in any testing scenario.
> It was found out publicly by someone who tilted his mouse 90 degrees to be able to do fast arm swipes on the y-axis to make the G402 malfunction. Logitech knew about that as they told the people in Lausanne. It was only programmed to work within a certain set of degrees from the x-axis, because all recorded fast motion was within that spectrum.
> The circle thing was independent from the y-axis not using the gyro btw, and still the only real world usage scenario for that would be OSU maybe, but even there you don't do circles that fast.


If they knew about it, they purposely programmed the mouse faulty, or went with the good old "no one will notice this, lets save money" approach.

Again, if it was not an issue, why didnt logitech step up and say "This is how a mouse is supposed to work, its 100% perfect as is"

And then not release a firmware update?..

My point is, the "bug" should never have been there to start with.


----------



## detto87

They "fixed" that "bug" so the never-ending-ranting-folks on OCN finally would shut up about non-issues.


----------



## the1onewolf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> They "fixed" that "bug" so the never-ending-ranting-folks on OCN finally would shut up about non-issues.


ESR beckons


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> They "fixed" that "bug" so the never-ending-ranting-folks on OCN finally would shut up about non-issues.


Yes, im sure they care a lot about 10~ (lets aim high here) people on OCN that whines about a "bug" instead of telling them how wrong they are, and they can tell them why theyre wrong

This is like saying a car that cant turn hard left is not broken, just because you dont do it often

Now remember, the food stand is still up, and we need to sell these candy floss'


----------



## SmashTV

The testing explains itself. Nobody really drives their mouse like mad on the Y Axis. Nobody rampantly circles their mouse either. The mouse is fine as is because you're not gonna do that on a regular basis. Same reason why people can tolerate the MLT04 PCS. Most people won't eclipse it. Firmware fixes it anyways so I don't see why people are complaining.

Now LGS not recognizing newer firmwares is a bug. Both my mice I had to check the site for updates. Other than that at least Logitech fixes their stuff which is something most other companies don't do.

So for future reference should anyone read this: the mouse is fine. No flaws. Anyone saying otherwise is not informed or sleeps with the IE 3.0 next to them in bed.


----------



## Crizzl

This really is the perfect example of complaining just for the sake of complaining.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> This is like saying a car that cant turn hard left is not broken, just because you dont do it often


Your car analogy is wrong.
It's actually more like saying a car that cannot be driven sideways (like a crab can do) is broken.


----------



## semantics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> This is like saying a car that cant turn hard left is not broken, just because you dont do it often
> 
> 
> 
> Your car analogy is wrong.
> It's actually more like saying a car that cannot be driven sideways (like a crab can do) is broken.
Click to expand...

That's pretty poor, it's more like saying a car that can't do handbrake turns is useless for all forms of racing.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> This really is the perfect example of complaining just for the sake of complaining.


People will say anyhting to discredit mice that don't fall into their preferences.I bet any complainers have distaste for something else on the mice other than the Fusion Engine and they're just using it as a catalyst for complaints.









I'll say I wish the side buttons were stffer like on my G602. OTher than that it's a blast from the past and fits the same as the MX518 I still have.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> People will say anyhting to discredit mice that don't fall into their preferences.I bet any complainers have distaste for something else on the mice other than the Fusion Engine and they're just using it as a catalyst for complaints.


It's only human nature to do this type of thing BECAUSE it helps them realize how right they were for buying a particular mouse and to justify their decision. Also you'll have those that will try a mouse out at home then later take it back from where they purchased it for a refund or swap around. If you have the luxury of being able to do that I would do that as well because it would save me heaps of money when trying out all types of input devices.

I have lots of mice that I can never get rid of because I never sell anything I purchase usually it goes down in the basement packed away in it's box for 'possible' future use. The only time a complain about a mouse is when it dies on me or the shell casing is so poor and flimsy (aka Razer DA2013).

That is why these forums exist because we hear either horror stories or fan-boy proclamations since it's nice to see both sides of the story, everyone has to take a guess at what is real or what is fake.

I'm still trying to find out what is fake here on this forum........


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *semantics*
> 
> That's pretty poor, it's more like saying a car that can't do handbrake turns is useless for all forms of racing.


Its fine for NASCAR just turn left, better hope theres no hard lefts.

Keep saying its perfect fine, if it was why fix what aint broken - if logitech could give us a valid (not a PR) reason that its fine, id be glad to hear it.

And no, i wont be buying the mouse regardless, as i cant stand sniper buttons in general, if the mouse works for you, thats great, but it was still a bug no matter how you look at it


----------



## deepor

Here's btw. comparison tests between that older and the newer firmware (it has pictures) just to finish that bug talk up:

http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2014/10/logitech-g402-v90217.html

So things are really fixed and everything seems fine.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> Here's btw. comparison tests between that older and the newer firmware (it has pictures) just to finish that bug talk up:
> 
> http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2014/10/logitech-g402-v90217.html
> 
> So things are really fixed and everything seems fine.


Thanks for providing the link to actual data. Now people can settle down about the sensor and the fusion engine.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> Here's btw. comparison tests between that older and the newer firmware (it has pictures) just to finish that bug talk up:
> 
> http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2014/10/logitech-g402-v90217.html
> 
> So things are really fixed and everything seems fine.


Yep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Thanks for providing the link to actual data. Now people can settle down about the sensor and the fusion engine.


You misunderstood, i never said the mouse wasent fine now, i said the bug should not have gotten through, thats all. - and yes, they fixed the issue.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Yep
> You misunderstood, i never said the mouse wasent fine now, i said the bug should not have gotten through, thats all. - and yes, they fixed the issue.


Not necessarily for you, but for others who still think there's something wrong.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Not necessarily for you, but for others who still think there's something wrong.


Least we got that sorted out


----------



## povohat

The X and Y axis work correctly independently, but is there any information about how the accelerometer/gyroscope handles direction changes at speeds above the AM010, eg: extremely fast circles. I understand that this is not a typical use case, I am purely interested in the limits of the accelerometer/gyroscope.


----------



## LinkPro

I just got this mouse and the mouse wheel is squeaking like crazy when scrolling up. Is it a common issue or just me? I'm trying to ditch my Deathadder and the G402's shape has been working great. I'm getting a replacement tomorrow so hopefully that will go away, squeaky wheel is always deal breaker for me.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> The X and Y axis work correctly independently, but is there any information about how the accelerometer/gyroscope handles direction changes at speeds above the AM010, eg: extremely fast circles. I understand that this is not a typical use case, I am purely interested in the limits of the accelerometer/gyroscope.


Perhaps you can channel CPate for this. I'd be interested as well.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LinkPro*
> 
> I just got this mouse and the mouse wheel is squeaking like crazy when scrolling up. Is it a common issue or just me? I'm trying to ditch my Deathadder and the G402's shape has been working great. I'm getting a replacement tomorrow so hopefully that will go away, squeaky wheel is always deal breaker for me.


Nothing like that on my end, and I haven't read any widespread squeaking issues. Probably a bad one got through.


----------



## LinkPro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Nothing like that on my end, and I haven't read any widespread squeaking issues. Probably a bad one got through.


Thanks for the heads up. My replacement seems to be working fine right now. Hopefully I can ditch my Deathadder with this - as much as I love the DA's shape, Synapse broke the camel's back.


----------



## justnvc

Today i noticed something rather strange on both my G402 and G502. I know that different sized mouse feet can affect tracking and dpi levels, but I'm using stock on both. I also know this could be considered normal in that respect, it probably happens to other mice too, but it's the very tiny change in height that got me curious as it's a large change in degrees to go with. It's the first time I've really tested for it, as I've been having trouble adapting to a lower sensitivity moving back to Arena FPS.

If you move the mouse 'x' cm across your mousepad with both mice flat (in my case, steelseries qck heavy and corsair mm200) it moves 'x' distance. Let's say 22-23cm / 360 degrees. Now, if you lift the right side ever so slightly (so it still tracks perfectly), or lift the left side, suddenly it's 26-27cm/360. A 4-5cm deviance from lifting the mouse on one side no higher than 1mm. This is easier to demonstrate with the G402 as the LoD is higher. Is this large change in cm/360 normal? I expected a 1-2cm change at most, but for the tiny change in height it's really quite large. I think I've only just noticed it because of the left thumb grip, it causes me to lift the mouse at a strange angle most of the time when compared to my old Razer Deathadder 3.5G.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justnvc*
> 
> It's such a huge difference and it might explain whilst I've had trouble adapting to it 100% as I tend to lift the mouse a little during tracking.


Its just you being weird.


----------



## justnvc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Its just you being weird.


I thought that!


----------



## SmashTV

So contrary to minority belief here, the cord is awesome. When I lift my mouse the cord doesn't collapse and snag at the end of my tray and makes the mouse feel wireless. Zowie cord sticks to everything it can.

I get the stiffness is an issue if you loop the cable but its working wonders for me.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> So contrary to minority belief here, the cord is awesome. When I lift my mouse the cord doesn't collapse and snag at the end of my tray and makes the mouse feel wireless. Zowie cord sticks to everything it can.
> 
> I get the stiffness is an issue if you loop the cable but its working wonders for me.


Except when you move it left to right and the resistance practically doubles the further you go.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Except when you move it left to right and the resistance practically doubles the further you go.


I'm not getting any resistance in any direction.


----------



## fellcbr1

EDIT: i have finally got it, had to import it since it took ages to get here..

Despite all the hate i have found the cable not that bad, not sure if it is the way i route my cable to the back of the PC but i don't get much resistance..

no Y-axis issues here..

LOD higher than the G400?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fellcbr1*
> 
> EDIT: i have finally got it, had to import it since it took ages to get here..
> 
> Despite all the hate i have found the cable not that bad, not sure if it is the way i route my cable to the back of the PC but i don't get much resistance..
> 
> no Y-axis issues here..
> 
> LOD higher than the G400?


LOD felt about the same from what I remember. Some (same certain) people do like to parrot the same narrative about mice so I'm not surprised someone else found the cord to be bearable as well.

For Y-Axis maybe you're on the updated firmware. If not don't fret unless you're hitting 3+m/s going up or down. Or if you just want to be on the latest and greatest.


----------



## popups

So this thread is okay, but the FinalMouse thread isn't?


----------



## Thunderbringer

The Review thread is really gone.. just wanted to point out how nice the mousetester graphs look - they look really good (too good?)!


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thunderbringer*
> 
> The Review thread is really gone.. just wanted to point out how nice the mousetester graphs look - they look really good (too good?)!


Rafa (Asian mouse man) has more G402 graphs at his blog if you want more tracking information.

This mouse so far has been the bees knees on all of my mouse pads - even the glass and the flashy Nova that gives Zowie mice issues. The G402 has proven to have excellent surface compatibility.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> I'm not getting any resistance in any direction.


I'm getting a lot of resistance, my mouse cord is stiff enough so that with nothing holding it down, it's floating slightly over my desk. With 800dpi / 30cm/180 it's one of my biggest problems with the mouse


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> I'm getting a lot of resistance, my mouse cord is stiff enough so that with nothing holding it down, it's floating slightly over my desk. With 800dpi / 30cm/180 it's one of my biggest problems with the mouse


I have my cord running through a binder clip that is clipped to my desk (leaving the cord suspended) and I have no issues with resistance.


----------



## r0ach

Like how they have meat tenderizers, they should sell G402 with a mouse cord tenderizer. Some kind of object to beat the cord with until it changes from a shark fishing line to a mouse cord.


----------



## Nivity

I never understood why the cords got worse and worse with newer mice.
It's weird, the best cord I used is still on my DA 3G, and I used that mouse for years and years, never had any trouble with the cord.
Super thin, flexible and light.

Nowdays they are braided, heavy as ... and stiff.
Im not gonna run over the cord with my car, I mean common.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I never understood why the cords got worse and worse with newer mice.
> It's weird, the best cord I used is still on my DA 3G, and I used that mouse for years and years, never had any trouble with the cord.
> Super thin, flexible and light.
> 
> Nowdays they are braided, heavy as ... and stiff.
> Im not gonna run over the cord with my car, I mean common.


Mouse cables need to shield against RF (I think) emissions to get FCC approval, and newer/different HW emits more which requires a different cable. Flexible cables that do that are expensive.

At least that's what I understood.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> I never understood why the cords got worse and worse with newer mice.
> It's weird, the best cord I used is still on my DA 3G, and I used that mouse for years and years, never had any trouble with the cord.
> Super thin, flexible and light.
> 
> Nowdays they are braided, heavy as ... and stiff.
> Im not gonna run over the cord with my car, I mean common.


You occasionally get someone posting that they had to exchange a mouse with Logitech several times because the cable always broke for them. Those people are the reason for the current cables.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Thunderbringer*
> 
> The Review thread is really gone.. just wanted to point out how nice the mousetester graphs look - they look really good (too good?)!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafa (Asian mouse man) has more G402 graphs at his blog if you want more tracking information.
> 
> This mouse so far has been the bees knees on all of my mouse pads - even the glass and the flashy Nova that gives Zowie mice issues. The G402 has proven to have excellent surface compatibility.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the hint. But there is a misunderstanding here. My post referrs to popups and the removed/deleted "Finalmouse Gaming Mouse Review - by Ino". In that review, the Finalmouse showed stable polling rate. My bad, i should have used the quote function.









I agree about the surface compatibility. I think the used lense is largely the reason for this, slightly angled sensor eye, not 100% vertical. For example the g502 or MS Sidewinder x3. I assume the g402/g302 use the same lense.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I never understood why the cords got worse and worse with newer mice.
> It's weird, the best cord I used is still on my DA 3G, and I used that mouse for years and years, never had any trouble with the cord.
> Super thin, flexible and light.
> 
> Nowdays they are braided, heavy as ... and stiff.
> Im not gonna run over the cord with my car, I mean common.


The DA 3G cord was the only cord that broke for me in my entire life, albeit after years of usage. :x "_Super thin, flexible and light_" sounds good and about exactly opposite to the g302 cord.


----------



## bbdzyx

Hi guys!

I've spent the last few days browsing tech sites, reading reviews and stuff as I am looking for a new mouse (the Zowie FK2) when I came across Ino's two reviews here on OCN: the one about the FK1 and the other one about the Logitech G402.

In the article, I guess Ino used microe's MouseTester program. But looking at the tester prints of the mice I got confused.

So these are few test print examples of the G402.
400cpi, 1000Hz
400 cpi, 500Hz

And here the Zowie ones.
400cpi, 1000Hz
400cpi, 500Hz

The thing I do not understand: how come the points on the Zowie's pattern more erratic than the G402's. I thought the FK1 has way better sensor than this Logitech mouse.
So what's the matter with this? Is it the smoothing in the G402 or what? Could you please answer me this, I would like to buy the best mouse I can get for my money?!

ps.: I'm sorry if this was a manner in dispute some time ago, I've used the forum search engine but couldn't get any proper answer. btw sorry for my poor english too, I'm only studying english since last year.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bbdzyx*
> 
> Hi guys!
> 
> I've spent the last few days browsing tech sites, reading reviews and stuff as I am looking for a new mouse (the Zowie FK2) when I came across Ino's two reviews here on OCN: the one about the FK1 and the other one about the Logitech G402.
> 
> In the article, I guess Ino used microe's MouseTester program. But looking at the tester prints of the mice I got confused.
> 
> So these are few test print examples of the G402.
> 400cpi, 1000Hz
> 400 cpi, 500Hz
> 
> And here the Zowie ones.
> 400cpi, 1000Hz
> 400cpi, 500Hz
> 
> The thing I do not understand: how come the points on the Zowie's pattern more erratic than the G402's. I thought the FK1 has way better sensor than this Logitech mouse.
> So what's the matter with this? Is it the smoothing in the G402 or what? Could you please answer me this, I would like to buy the best mouse I can get for my money?!
> 
> ps.: I'm sorry if this was a manner in dispute some time ago, I've used the forum search engine but couldn't get any proper answer. btw sorry for my poor english too, I'm only studying english since last year.


G402 has no smoothing under 2000 DPI. I'd say it's the mouse mat used more than anything.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Mouse cables need to shield against RF (I think) emissions to get FCC approval, and newer/different HW emits more which requires a different cable. Flexible cables that do that are expensive.
> 
> At least that's what I understood.


What hardware causes more of those emissions? Why do some mice with the same sensor need worse cables than others?


----------



## povohat

Remember the G402 uses an accelerometer above ~2.7m/s, which may explain the drastic difference in those curves at the top end. The rise to 3m/s has some similarities on both.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bbdzyx*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Snip
> 
> 
> 
> Hi guys!
> 
> I've spent the last few days browsing tech sites, reading reviews and stuff as I am looking for a new mouse (the Zowie FK2) when I came across Ino's two reviews here on OCN: the one about the FK1 and the other one about the Logitech G402.
> 
> In the article, I guess Ino used microe's MouseTester program. But looking at the tester prints of the mice I got confused.
> 
> So these are few test print examples of the G402.
> 400cpi, 1000Hz
> 400 cpi, 500Hz
> 
> And here the Zowie ones.
> 400cpi, 1000Hz
> 400cpi, 500Hz
> 
> The thing I do not understand: how come the points on the Zowie's pattern more erratic than the G402's. I thought the FK1 has way better sensor than this Logitech mouse.
> So what's the matter with this? Is it the smoothing in the G402 or what? Could you please answer me this, I would like to buy the best mouse I can get for my money?!
> 
> ps.: I'm sorry if this was a manner in dispute some time ago, I've used the forum search engine but couldn't get any proper answer. btw sorry for my poor english too, I'm only studying english since last year.


Like pvh said, it's mainly the gyro kicking in as the optical sensor fails. And the gyro is just much more accurate at those speeds than the optical sensor.

Btw your English seems pretty damn good for just one year of learning, at least from my perspective of a non native speaker.


----------



## bbdzyx

Thank you very much for the answers.







I've read about those fused sensors, but I've never thought It actually works. But it seems its working pretty good.
Besides I have failed to understand those graphics, but now I can see how I supposed to look at them.









I think I choose the FK2 as I hardly reach 1.5 m/s, based on the Enotus tester.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: bbdzyx



Originally Posted by *bbdzyx* 


> Hi guys!
> 
> I've spent the last few days browsing tech sites, reading reviews and stuff as I am looking for a new mouse (the Zowie FK2) when I came across Ino's two reviews here on OCN: the one about the FK1 and the other one about the Logitech G402.
> 
> In the article, I guess Ino used microe's MouseTester program. But looking at the tester prints of the mice I got confused.
> 
> So these are few test print examples of the G402.
> 400cpi, 1000Hz
> 400 cpi, 500Hz
> 
> And here the Zowie ones.
> 400cpi, 1000Hz
> 400cpi, 500Hz
> 
> The thing I do not understand: how come the points on the Zowie's pattern more erratic than the G402's. I thought the FK1 has way better sensor than this Logitech mouse.
> So what's the matter with this? Is it the smoothing in the G402 or what? Could you please answer me this, I would like to buy the best mouse I can get for my money?!
> 
> ps.: I'm sorry if this was a manner in dispute some time ago, I've used the forum search engine but couldn't get any proper answer. btw sorry for my poor english too, I'm only studying english since last year.






Those graphs really do make the gyro/accelerometer look good.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> 
> Those graphs really do make the gyro/accelerometer look good.


Exactly how it always felt in my experience. There is no tracking flaw with this mouse now. I highly recommend it, especially for people who hated the original shape with that stupid lip on the right side that has now been eliminated.


----------



## phamtom

so does the mouse have accel?


----------



## slumpie

Nothing you'd notice.


----------



## phamtom

comparable to a FK1 or a DA 2013? I mean what we consider a "flawless sensor"


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phamtom*
> 
> so does the mouse have accel?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phamtom*
> 
> comparable to a FK1 or a DA 2013? I mean what we consider a "flawless sensor"


The speed related accuracy variance (what is often referred to as accel) is roughly the same between these. So hardly noticable.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phamtom*
> 
> comparable to a FK1 or a DA 2013? I mean what we consider a "flawless sensor"


The sensor in this mouse is considered flawless do not sure what you're getting at. It tracks as good and there's no acceleration.


----------



## espn

Does G402 really give similar grip feeling as MX518/G400/G400s? Logitech claims that it is the successor


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> Does G402 really give similar grip feeling as MX518/G400/G400s? Logitech claims that it is the successor


Similar, yes, but slightly different. Also depending on how you grip your G400.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> Does G402 really give similar grip feeling as MX518/G400/G400s? Logitech claims that it is the successor


Similar but without that stupid lip on the right side. IMO it's more of a claw or fingertip mouse as the sniper button could get in the way for palmers with larger hands.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> Does G402 really give similar grip feeling as MX518/G400/G400s? Logitech claims that it is the successor


Not as much lip space for the ring finger. Metal hit it right in that it feels much better claw than palm. That is pretty much the only adjustment I made personally. Mouse has been great otherwise.

I noticed the rubber side looks removable. Maybe someone can print a different shape so the lip is nearly the same as before.


----------



## Crizzl

I like to have my push to talk button on the sidebutton that makes you go forward when browsing (mouse4/mouse5?) but when I press it on the g402 mouse1 becomes much harder to click. It doesn't happen with the "go back sidebutton". Can anybody test this/have anyone experienced the same?


----------



## deepor

Yes, if you look closely, the plastic of mouse1 moves down a little and that forward thumb button then starts scratching on the underside of the plastic of mouse1.

Now that I looked at it on my mouse, it seems to me when pressing the forward thumb button, it actually always touches and scratches mouse1 from below, even if you don't hold mouse1 down. I can hear it creaking a little and feel that it's rubbing on stuff. The back thumb button isn't like that.


----------



## Crizzl

Damn that's annoying thanks for confirming though.


----------



## orndorf77

I just bought a Logitech g402 . I installed the software and I don't see any options to enable or disable acceleration or prediction . is acceleration and prediction disabled by default ? and If I wanted to enable acceleration or prediction how would I do it ?


----------



## SmashTV

I don't have any of the button issues talked about in the previous post. Also no you can't turn prediction on or acceleration from what I know.


----------



## Crizzl

The issue is most obvious to me if I try to press mouse1 right where it separates from the shell, it's very hard to click down if the sidebutton is pressed. Does that not happen at all on your unit?


----------



## Ickz

Did they ever fix the awful cable or hard to press swheel button in newer batches?


----------



## hza

Have none of the above issues on my unit.


----------



## Crizzl

Okay that is interesting. I guess we have faulty units then.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> Okay that is interesting. I guess we have faulty units then.


I don't know if that's possible. If I look at how my mouse is built, there's no gap below that thumb button. Everything seems to be assembled the way it's intended to.

To fix my mouse, I would have to shave a bit of plastic off the top of the thumb button (and I think it could be made to be invisible as it would be hidden by the mouse1 button plastic), or I could try to shave off a bit of plastic from the underside of mouse1 in that area.

For that problem to not happen at all, there's no way the person that assembled the mouse in the factory could have made a mistake? The molds for the plastic parts would have to be completely different?


----------



## Crizzl

I think you're right but people are reporting that they don't have that issue so it sort of has to be faulty units?


----------



## SmashTV

Yeah pressing my mouse 5 button in I have no problems clicking on mouse 1 at the same time.


----------



## gbsn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orndorf77*
> 
> I just bought a Logitech g402 . I installed the software and I don't see any options to enable or disable acceleration or prediction . is acceleration and prediction disabled by default ? and If I wanted to enable acceleration or prediction how would I do it ?


There is no acceleration or prediction options on the 402.


----------



## jaffa2843

Actually, there's no prediction nor accel on this mouse. If you like the shape, than you have a winner.


----------



## plyr

One thing that I would like to have is Lod options, since on G100s I feel the LOD is a bit too high.


----------



## SmashTV

I too enjoy Zowie low LOD. Have you considered using tape and testing?


----------



## detto87

Been reading this thread and actually the main thing that's keeping me from using the G402 is the high LOD.
It's messing up every time I lift it (which happens every 1-2 second in-game).
Tried the tape trick on G100S without success. Either it didn't lower it enough or it stopped tracking completely.


----------



## Mes213

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Been reading this thread and actually the main thing that's keeping me from using the G402 is the high LOD.
> It's messing up every time I lift it (which happens every 1-2 second in-game).
> Tried the tape trick on G100S without success. Either it didn't lower it enough or it stopped tracking completely.


I agree somewhat but I actually find it quite manageable, maybe it's just the way I grip it but it's much better than the Zowie EC2 evo which for me has a pretty unbearable LOD, can't get much more perfect than the FK1 however.

G402 is now my main mouse and actually the 1st ergo shaped mouse that I really like and that is even useable for me, i cannot stand the SS rival or the deathadder.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mes213*
> 
> I agree somewhat but I actually find it quite manageable, maybe it's just the way I grip it but it's much better than the Zowie EC2 evo which for me has a pretty unbearable LOD, can't get much more perfect than the FK1 however.
> 
> G402 is now my main mouse and actually the 1st ergo shaped mouse that I really like and that is even useable for me, i cannot stand the SS rival or the deathadder.


Word. I also cannot stand the DA. I don't even have big hands but the only grip I can do with it is fingertip, which is so not what I want.

The g402 is quite nice tbh, especially if you take out all the useless junk inside, you can shave off like 7-12 grams at least. What distracts me a little is the thumbrest, like it's okay but I feel like I don't get the same control as I get with mice without thumbrest, since I grip near the surface (such as the rival).


----------



## SmashTV

I took a break from my cloth pad to test out LOD on some other pads I have. There's this very particular white plastic pad I have that gets the G402 LOD fairly low and I immediately switched to it Instantly noticeable. Also has lower LOD on my glass mat, but tracks better than my other mice on glass. Black XPS pad has higher LOD.

Maybe color has something to do with it? Though that pad is veeery picky with what mice work good on it.


----------



## MrBonk

Hi guys, I recently bought this mouse but I am quite puzzled. I have accel disabled and the mouse counter at 6/11 (MouseFix shows no errors when set this way. Set one notch before or after does)

But I cannot for the life of me make sense of the results with mouse tester.

1000hz 800CPI


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






Is this normal?


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrBonk*
> 
> Hi guys, I recently bought this mouse but I am quite puzzled. I have accel disabled and the mouse counter at 6/11 (MouseFix shows no errors when set this way. Set one notch before or after does)
> 
> But I cannot for the life of me make sense of the results with mouse tester.
> 
> 1000hz 800CPI
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this normal?


I'm guessing, that you move the mouse slow in several directions during the test. Am I right?


----------



## MrBonk

Yeah, but this is what it looks like for ex moving fast at 640CPI
Still has the strangely dispersed parallel horizontal lines


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!















I'm probably doing it wrong somehow?


----------



## Hypertension

On the Yaxis you got XVelocity, which shows a very slow speed in both your images, which should not be happening.

That could happen if you've got a very low setting of dpi in logitech software and you're setting a higher dpi in the mouse tester, but in this case the counts should still display correctly as long as you're moving the mouse fast...
For example if I set 4000dpi in mouse tester but i use 800 dpi in mouse software then, even if I move my mouse fast on the y in mouse tester it is going to show low values of XVelocity.
Or you're simply moving the mouse very slow indeed, you should easily be able to reach 3m/s+.

I've tried changing the windows mouse multiplier from the 6th notch, which is what I normally use, to any other and it doesn't affect the results in mouse tester for me.

Edit: try to use enotus and post a screen while using 800 dpi (enotus doesnt support 640 i believe), so we can have a look at the max speed you can reach and all the other stuff, maybe that could give us some insight.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hypertension*
> 
> On the Yaxis you got XVelocity, which shows a very slow speed in both your images, which should not be happening.
> 
> That could happen if you've got a very low setting of dpi in logitech software and you're setting a higher dpi in the mouse tester, but in this case the counts should still display correctly as long as you're moving the mouse fast...
> For example if I set 4000dpi in mouse tester but i use 800 dpi in mouse software then, even if I move my mouse fast on the y in mouse tester it is going to show low values of XVelocity.
> Or you're simply moving the mouse very slow indeed, you should easily be able to reach 3m/s+.
> 
> I've tried changing the windows mouse multiplier from the 6th notch, which is what I normally use, to any other and it doesn't affect the results in mouse tester for me.
> 
> Edit: try to use enotus and post a screen while using 800 dpi (enotus doesnt support 640 i believe), so we can have a look at the max speed you can reach and all the other stuff, maybe that could give us some insight.


Enotus is terrible and would only "hide" what MouseTester shows.

@MrBonk: do a really fast swipe please. You are moving the mouse so slowly that it reports the same counts on multiple polls because you didn't "move" in between them. That looks normal.


----------



## Hypertension

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Enotus is terrible and would only "hide" what MouseTester shows.
> 
> @MrBonk: do a really fast swipe please. You are moving the mouse so slowly that it reports the same counts on multiple polls because you didn't "move" in between them. That looks normal.


I know and mouse tester also shows the pattern of your mouse movement, which in this case could be quite useful as, as you said, it really looks like he's not moving it fast at all, I just suggested enotus because with that mouse speed feature, if he can top it only below 1m/s or something like that, then there is something fishy going on.

I'm going to just add a speculation here which is a very long shot, at least in my opinion, but here it goes: Xvelocity showing Yvelocity and viceversa? Maybe due to the firmware update, that might have gone wrong, that adjusted fusion on the Y axis?

If I swipe from left to right very fast i get the normal speed on x axis as it is supposed to be, and again as it is supposed to be, very low speeds on the Y axis as i'm not moving the mouse up and down (or at least as little as possible) during my horizontal motion.


----------



## SmashTV

I'm getting nothing out of the ordinary on my mouse test and that's with the latest firmware as well. I'm doing fast swipes too.


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> I like to have my push to talk button on the sidebutton that makes you go forward when browsing (mouse4/mouse5?) but when I press it on the g402 mouse1 becomes much harder to click. It doesn't happen with the "go back sidebutton". Can anybody test this/have anyone experienced the same?


I RMA'd my G402 and the replacement I got have the exact same issue. The way to test it so that it's not based on feeling of the click is to look at it from the front and tilt it up a little bit so you have a clear view of the space between the mouse1 button and the shell. While doing this press mouse5 and you should be able to see mouse1 bounce up a little bit as if it's being pushed up by mouse5 (according to my experiences). Can the people that said they did not have this problem with their G402 please try this?


----------



## Hypertension

I tried pressing mouse button 1 while keeping pressed mouse4 or mouse5 and the top one, i believe is mouse5, makes mouse1 very slightly harder to press.
It is a very very tiny difference in my case and i'm still able to press m1 just by pressing the beginning area of the button even while keeping pressed mouse5.

So in few words is that i do notice a difference in pressing mouse1, becomes stiffer, if i'm also pressing mouse5 compared to when i don't press mouse 5, but the difference in my case is negligeable.


----------



## Crizzl

Okay. Yes it's not a huge difference but it just really bothers me because I use mouse5 as push to talk and mouse1 to shoot (obviously) so I get reminded of it constantly more or less.


----------



## Hypertension

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> Okay. Yes it's not a huge difference but it just really bothers me because I use mouse5 as push to talk and mouse1 to shoot (obviously) so I get reminded of it constantly more or less.


I do the same, alt on keyboard to talk with ingame voice and mouse 5 to talk with people on teamspeak, but i mostly don't talk while shooting, just after or before =)


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hypertension*
> 
> I do the same, alt on keyboard to talk with ingame voice and mouse 5 to talk with people on teamspeak, but i mostly don't talk while shooting, just after or before =)


I mostly play TF2 so it's very common to talk while shooting, I'd imagine it would be less of a problem if my main game was CS.


----------



## SmashTV

I too play this Team Fortress 2 but my mouse 5 is bound to conga. Also I don't have any of the mouse 5 + click stiffness When I hold it. Maybe I'm not pressing it in the right location?


----------



## Hypertension

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> I mostly play TF2 so it's very common to talk while shooting, I'd imagine it would be less of a problem if my main game was CS.


I use it also in quakelive but i guess i'm just used to it. May I suggest to have a voice toggle on/off on mouse5/mouse4 then instead than push to talk, might be easier, or a push to talk with a long activation period (like 2/3 seconds) so that you just need to press it once and do the fast talk or you can keep it or you can keep it pressed incase you want to talk longer.

Anyway back to the topic, also on my g402 there is a slight difference in force required to press mouse1 if mouse5 is being kept pressed together with it as opposed to when it's isnt.
It doesn't bother to me as much as to go opening it and maybe smooth out the edge that collides but maybe that would be possible. (Just speculating)


----------



## Crizzl

@SmashTV I tried to describe a method of testing it so that it doesn't rely on "feel" in post #1070, try that instead because to be honest it is not a big difference but it's definitely there in my experience.









@Hypertension That is one way to do it. I just used mouse4 instead of mouse5 since it didn't interfere with the click.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> @SmashTV I tried to describe a method of testing it so that it doesn't rely on "feel" in post #1070, try that instead because to be honest it is not a big difference but it's definitely there in my experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hypertension That is one way to do it. I just used mouse4 instead of mouse5 since it didn't interfere with the click.


I really did try to mimic it. Any issues I really try to reproduce for verification sake. I'm not at the command console right now but once I return I'll keep pressing around and try to get that stiffness to occur.

Or at least feel it more.


----------



## MrBonk

Ah, I see, I guess I was going too slow. Here's faster at 400DPI


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Sorry, wasn't quite sure how to do everything correctly since the last mouse I had was this <_< http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003L62T7W/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 about 4 years ago


----------



## detto87

That's still very slow.

If you can get a Intelli mouse (WMO,IE3.0,IO1.1) and use Windows Vista or 7, I recommended to test one of those as they have the purest tracking of any mice to date.


----------



## looniam

for what it's worth:

i picked one up yesterday at best buy that price matched amazon's $46 . i cannot complain for that price and to be honest, i have only recently bought any "gaming peripherals." a few months ago i got a G100 and hated it; movement/sensor was fine but i would get frustrated in windows applications with the double click of the left button - thought it was a waste of money over getting a $10 M100.

still, pretty comfortable with having larger hands and stubby fingers. i can grip it between my thumb and the first knuckle of my ring finger, where it meets the ridge on the right side, my pinkie is actually resting on the table sans mouse pad. (would that be a 1-2-1?) curling my pinkie to grip the side makes it cramp - prolly an age thing @52y/o.

i've only played a half dozen hours of borderlands 2 and 800dpi seems to work well 1080 @60hz and i like 1600 on the desktop then using two monitors. the sniper button is a non issue for me since my thumb is too short to come in contact with it as i like to rest the heel of my hand on the desktop also. the stiff cable isn't a problem either since the table i have had a rectangle cut out to feed an old dot matrix a spool of paper like so:


Spoiler: PIC!




yeah a dusting is needed











TLDR:
for just $46 i am happy and think i could have made a worse choice that would have been more expensive.
now back to the "technical discussion(s)."


----------



## MrBonk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> That's still very slow.
> 
> If you can get a Intelli mouse (WMO,IE3.0,IO1.1) and use Windows Vista or 7, I recommended to test one of those as they have the purest tracking of any mice to date.


I don't have a lot of space to move with a ton of force. Just because my desk is pretty flimsy and is about time for a new one.

But I had an Intelli Mouse that I used exclusively for about jeez I think 10-12 years? It was a model from 97 with the ball and everything.


----------



## SmashTV

Ok I finally got the mouse 5+mouse 1 thing going on. Difference is I had to press mouse5 in more than I normally would and have my thumb closer to the front. With that I can feel what people were talking about before.


----------



## Chiruadr

I got it 2 days ago and while it feels good in the hand for everyday use, when I play any FPS (ironically) I tend to squeeze it too much (e-3lue cobra I had was smaller) and my hand hurts. Wheel is too stiff and loud and it's hard to press. I'm not sure if I will get used to it. Sniper button is too far for me. Can't reach it with my grip, have to go full palm. I will return it in a week or so if no improvement

Pic related is comparasion to my previous cheap mouse.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chiruadr*
> 
> I got it 2 days ago and while it feels good in the hand for everyday use, when I play any FPS (ironically) I tend to squeeze it too much (e-3lue cobra I had was smaller) and my hand hurts. Wheel is too stiff and loud and it's hard to press. I'm not sure if I will get used to it. Sniper button is too far for me. Can't reach it with my grip, have to go full palm. I will return it in a week or so if no improvement
> 
> Pic related is comparasion to my previous cheap mouse.


How do you grip it? As a palmer I noticed the right lip isn't as comfy as the older shell and it feel narrower in the grip areas. Flip side is I have a more "focused grip" - to describe it I'd say rather than resting my hand on it and moving it around I feel more precise in my grip like I'm commanding the mouse.

I still prefer the old shell though.


----------



## Chiruadr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Flip side is I have a more "focused grip" - to describe it I'd say rather than resting my hand on it and moving it around I feel more precise in my grip like I'm commanding the mouse.


Exactly what I do. I naturally grip it tight and while I am more precise and the aim is spot on, it tires my hand very quickly
I think this is the problem since I can't rest too well on the right my whole wrist takes the pressure
My hand is quite wide and I can't put my last 2 fingers on the side, only the pinkie and the ring sits on the side top side near the right click.
I prefer the old shape too.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chiruadr*
> 
> Exactly what I do. I naturally grip it tight and while I am more precise and the aim is spot on, it tires my hand very quickly
> I think this is the problem since I can't rest too well on the right my whole wrist takes the pressure
> My hand is quite wide and I can't put my last 2 fingers on the side, only the pinkie and the ring sits on the side top side near the right click.
> I prefer the old shape too.


My grip is similar in that I actually want a three-fingers-on-top style. My ring barely fits on the ledge but I got it to work over time. My pinky sits higher up in my grip since I don't like that the side lip gets thinner the further down you go and it will naturally be there when I lift the mouse. You might wanna try experimenting where your pinky sits as that is the key area that has changed from the last design.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> My grip is similar in that I actually want a three-fingers-on-top style. My ring barely fits on the ledge but I got it to work over time. My pinky sits higher up in my grip since I don't like that the side lip gets thinner the further down you go and it will naturally be there when I lift the mouse. You might wanna try experimenting where your pinky sits as that is the key area that has changed from the last design.


The mouse is still about as wide as the previous models that had the lip that you could use as a resting area for the ring finger. I'm guessing the guys that designed the shape, when they were thinking about a palm grip, they intended that the ring finger now rests on the button and perhaps can also click the right button, and that's why they removed that resting area they had previously?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> The mouse is still about as wide as the previous models that had the lip that you could use as a resting area for the ring finger. I'm guessing the guys that designed the shape, when they were thinking about a palm grip, they intended that the ring finger now rests on the button and perhaps can also click the right button, and that's why they removed that resting area they had previously?


That is probably the idea. My G602 is designed in that way (at least I believe so) with the wheel area resting the middle finger comfortably (even a faint pattern on the shell in that area) and a hump for the pinky. That is how I held the G602 anyways as well as my EC1 EVO, which I may add, had a wonderful concave area above the wheel for my F U finger.

The lip area gets considerably thinner the further down you go as it slopes inward so I guess that's main issue between old and new in terms of grip. Numbers wise might be the same at the most width but holding it is a different story on the right side. I have my grip set now though. My pinky rests on that slope near the top right under my ring finger (the second "bar" on the pattern) and my ring finger lays on top of the lip as per the previous shell design. My middle finger is on right click near the wheel (same as my MX518 - just the wheel area is bigger on the G402) and my index on M1 in a regular way.

The more I reply here the more I think about how similar the MX518 and G402 shells in reality are, just the pinky area wasn't automatic until I gave it a few days. I can swap both mice out now and have no issues using either.

EDIT: Picture of grip here and here.


----------



## Maximillion

You have very pretty hands for a man. The pigment/moisture level is exemplary and your nails are also well taken care of.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> You have very pretty hands for a man. The pigment/moisture level is exemplary and your nails are also well taken care of.


Icouldn't help but laugh


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> You have very pretty hands for a man. The pigment/moisture level is exemplary and your nails are also well taken care of.


I bite them.


----------



## MrBonk

After having used this for a few weeks. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I use a claw grip basically and it seems all wrong for this. The right side feels weird. I mostly end up gripping the lip of the left hand side fan out as the actual left hand face feels strange.

The mouse itself is great though for those it works for.

I think I am gonna try find something smaller.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrBonk*
> 
> After having used this for a few weeks. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I use a claw grip basically and it seems all wrong for this. The right side feels weird. I mostly end up gripping the lip of the left hand side fan out as the actual left hand face feels strange.
> 
> The mouse itself is great though for those it works for.
> 
> I think I am gonna try find something smaller.


What's funny is I find claw more "natural" than palm on the G402.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> What's funny is I find claw more "natural" than palm on the G402.


The funny thing is, I can easily fingertip it, even with my small-ish hands. .. and I preferred the Salmosa Pro-gaming's size for a long time. With palm grip, I feel my movements so limited. I have no idea how other people can use their mice with this type of grip.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jaffa2843*
> 
> With palm grip, I feel my movements so limited.


Probably because you use the same setup with the same sensitivity but just changed to a palm grip. That's to be expected.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Probably because you use the same setup with the same sensitivity but just changed to a palm grip. That's to be expected.


It's because I can only move the mouse with my wrist, but with fingertip grip, I can move the mouse easily with my fingers AND my wrist. BTW anything other than 33.0676cm/360 feels awkward to me.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jaffa2843*
> 
> The funny thing is, I can easily fingertip it, even with my small-ish hands. .. and I preferred the Salmosa Pro-gaming's size for a long time. With palm grip, I feel my movements so limited. I have no idea how other people can use their mice with this type of grip.


I've palmed since my very first mouse (some fatty Gateway) and my first "gaming" mouse was the MX518, I guess you could say I got used to palming.


----------



## MrBonk

Another factor is probably the size of the mouse too maybe. I'm too used to using small'ish mouses.

Maybe I just gotta give it more time. I'll miss the return window. But oh well.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrBonk*
> 
> Another factor is probably the size of the mouse too maybe. I'm too used to using small'ish mouses.
> 
> Maybe I just gotta give it more time. I'll miss the return window. But oh well.


Well there is an adjustment period for almost any mouse. Considering you used small mice previously it could be just that. Unless you're trying to move into the normal sized mouse area for a specific reason I'd say stick with what you like.

I had to move from from the heavy top sensor mice like the G500 because I felt they'd stop that design. It took me a while but I did become a normal mouse man.


----------



## Jeemil89

I don't know if it has been posted here already, but I tested the mouse sensitivity with Mousetester and got some interesting results. I have had the same DPI setting on the mouse for a week at 800 dpi and measured it with the software and it counted it to 900 dpi. I then switched through all the dpi settings and back to 800 dpi. After switching dpi's the the software measured it to 800 +/-10 dpi. It also felt a liitle bit slower than before. Do you guys have similar results? Just feels stupid to always change the dpi setting to get an accurate dpi setting.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jeemil89*
> 
> I don't know if it has been posted here already, but I tested the mouse sensitivity with Mousetester and got some interesting results. I have had the same DPI setting on the mouse for a week at 800 dpi and measured it with the software and it counted it to 900 dpi. I then switched through all the dpi settings and back to 800 dpi. After switching dpi's the the software measured it to 800 +/-10 dpi. It also felt a liitle bit slower than before. Do you guys have similar results? Just feels stupid to always change the dpi setting to get an accurate dpi setting.


That's interesting. Other users mentioned a similar DPI bug with 3310 mice. Steelseries fixed it with their Rival. But the Roccat KPM is prone to that issue still for example. I wonder why the AM010 has such a problem too though, because of what I know, that issue is related to LOD and surface adjustments. Things that the AM010 isn't capable of, but maybe I'm wrong here.

In any case, if a optical mouse has that DPI bug, it's pretty much a problem as severe as the acceleration problems of laser mice.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jeemil89*
> 
> I don't know if it has been posted here already, but I tested the mouse sensitivity with Mousetester and got some interesting results. I have had the same DPI setting on the mouse for a week at 800 dpi and measured it with the software and it counted it to 900 dpi. I then switched through all the dpi settings and back to 800 dpi. After switching dpi's the the software measured it to 800 +/-10 dpi. It also felt a liitle bit slower than before. Do you guys have similar results? Just feels stupid to always change the dpi setting to get an accurate dpi setting.


I don't have this issue. I'll try and replicate it as best I can. Any other steps?

If you can get something going for reproducibility sake contact Logitech support and let them know for an RMA and potential bug reasons.


----------



## Jeemil89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> I don't have this issue. I'll try and replicate it as best I can. Any other steps?
> 
> If you can get something going for reproducibility sake contact Logitech support and let them know for an RMA and potential bug reasons.


I'm going to try this again after not changing the dpi for 24 hours and see if it's at 800 or increased to 900 again. I tried to play some yesterday after I noticed the dpi difference, and my aim was a bit off and it felt much slower than before. This means that the dpi had been at 900 for a longer time. This could also indicate that the dpi will start to become unstable after a short period of time, but I'm going to test that today.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jeemil89*
> 
> I'm going to try this again after not changing the dpi for 24 hours and see if it's at 800 or increased to 900 again. I tried to play some yesterday after I noticed the dpi difference, and my aim was a bit off and it felt much slower than before. This means that the dpi had been at 900 for a longer time. This could also indicate that the dpi will start to become unstable after a short period of time, but I'm going to test that today.


Just measure it with a ruler instead of guessing. Like, if you have a 1920 pixel wide monitor, a movement from the left to the right edge of the screen should be 1920 / 800 = 2.4 inch for the mouse. That's 2" + 3/8" inch on a US ruler. It's 2.4 * 2.54 = 6.10 cm on a metric ruler.


----------



## Jeemil89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> Just measure it with a ruler instead of guessing. Like, if you have a 1920 pixel wide monitor, a movement from the left to the right edge of the screen should be 1920 / 800 = 2.4 inch for the mouse. That's 2" + 3/8" inch on a US ruler. It's 2.4 * 2.54 = 6.10 cm on a metric ruler.


I'm not guessing. I'm using Mousetester by microe, and a ruler for help. I'll post results later today.


----------



## Jeemil89

Ok, I measured the sensitivity again after not changing it for 24 hours and after about 10 tests the average was around 810 dpi at 800 dpi setting. This is not noticeable. I will however now try to keep this setting a week and then measure again if it changes. When I previously measured the 900 dpi on 800 dpi setting I did about 5 tests and all reported around 900 dpi, so I don't think it's just user error. This could however only be affecting my mouse if I got bad sample.


----------



## SmashTV

Yeah not getting this. I change DPI myself using PS/GIMP but I don't shutdown that often (Weeks at a time). If you get a for-sure replication method going let me know and I'll boogie.


----------



## Nilizum

If you want an accurate test:

1. Draw two parallel lines 1ft away from each other. Make sure they are parallel.

2. Position your mouse in its neutral position where there is no arcing. If your mouse is not in its neutral position, then the test will be invalid with inaccuracies.


3. Encompass a square around it to ensure straight movement. Line up either the left or right side of the square and match it with one of the parallel lines.

Apply a straight edge under or over the square to ensure a straight distance is being moved.

4. Launch a game and make a 90 degree with two square'd sides. Make sure the square'd sides you are using are parallel to the sides of your monitor.

If everything is calibrated and moved in a straight manner, then there will be no arcs.

5. Move a 360 and land on the reference point you made. Look at where it has landed based on your controlled setup.

6. Use http://www.funender.com/quake/mouse/index.html and configure your sensitivity and dpi until it reaches 12.0 inches/360. The link and its calculations are only applicable for games that use the 0.022 yaw and pitch scales for mouse sensitivity, such as Source Engine or the ID Tech engine.

This is a way to test your mouse dpi on your current mousepad for its real dpi value with 99% accuracy. This is also a way to test if a mouse has acceleration. Oh, this is also a great way to configure your cm or inch per 360 on a new setup or a new game.

Acceleration amount is:

(change in base distance) / (base distance)
|change in base distance| = Moved amount for 360 > or < than - (minus) the base distance.
So if base distance is 12 inches and moved distance at speed x1 (lower) is 12 inches and at speed x2 (higher) is 11 inches, then the positive acceleration amount is 1/12 or 8.3%. If you get more trials with a ratio of more acceleration for speed moved, then you can calculate it exponentially. Ex: 11 - 12 = |-1| = 1; so 1/12

It is negative acceleration if the distance is higher than the base distance for the 360.

P.S. WMinput vs Raw Input has some minor distance differences.

---

If you do not want to do it so scientifically, then you can always just line up a thick stack of legoblocks as a straight edge and just line your mouse with the edges of a parallel line. This will not provide accurate results because of arcing and displacement variances because of arcing and non-neutrality. This will get you very good a rough estimate though, better than measuring by the inch only...

This is how I measure it, and honestly this method will net you ~98+% results.


----------



## Jeemil89

Yes I measured it in the same way you did in the last picture, and did several tests (10) so I could get an average. Leaving the mouse at the same dpi for a longer time (a week) resulted in increased dpi. I will however do this test several times during the next month to get better results. This could have been coincidence but I could feel the sensitivity being lower in game after I fiddled with the sensitivities and measured it.


----------



## SaltedSlug

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *metal571*
> 
> Similar but without that stupid lip on the right side. IMO it's more of a claw or fingertip mouse as the sniper button could get in the way for palmers with larger hands.


Is the lip on the right side really gone? I bought the g502, the sensor is amazing... but the weight, clunky wobbly scroll, and lack of the right side lip make it impossible for me to use. Without that lip I really cannot use this mouse. I used that to lift the mouse with my ring finger with ease. So I have been looking at the g402 instead of this 502. Is the lip the same on the g402 as the g502 then?

If so... I'm very sad ;\ .


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SaltedSlug*
> 
> Is the lip on the right side really gone? I bought the g502, the sensor is amazing... but the weight, clunky wobbly scroll, and lack of the right side lip make it impossible for me to use. Without that lip I really cannot use this mouse. I used that to lift the mouse with my ring finger with ease. So I have been looking at the g402 instead of this 502. Is the lip the same on the g402 as the g502 then?
> 
> If so... I'm very sad ;\ .


The lips are similar yes. Have a look at this page for palm styles. His is more back than mine is and thus he gets both ring and pinky under the lip.

http://www.coolenjoy.net/bbs/mobile_web.php?id=review&no=22043&p=6


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SaltedSlug*
> 
> Is the lip on the right side really gone? I bought the g502, the sensor is amazing... but the weight, clunky wobbly scroll, and lack of the right side lip make it impossible for me to use. Without that lip I really cannot use this mouse. I used that to lift the mouse with my ring finger with ease. So I have been looking at the g402 instead of this 502. Is the lip the same on the g402 as the g502 then?
> 
> If so... I'm very sad ;\ .


The lip was so in the way that I actually used the old mouse with my ring finger above the lip. There's still a lip there but now it's much easier to fit both ring and pinky fingers underneath it.


----------



## SaltedSlug

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> The lips are similar yes. Have a look at this page for palm styles. His is more back than mine is and thus he gets both ring and pinky under the lip.
> 
> http://www.coolenjoy.net/bbs/mobile_web.php?id=review&no=22043&p=6


His claw looks like my grip. The problem is with that grip on the g502, my ring finger has nothing to lift the mouse with. So it has to squeeze hard to lift... not fun on such a heavy mouse either. On the 500, 518, and g400 both my ring finger and pinky fit under the good sized lip and I can lift the mouse with my thumb and ring finger with almost no pressure. The g502 just doesn't work so I'm hoping the g402 has enough lip to do what I did with the g400... probably not.


----------



## Chiruadr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SaltedSlug*
> 
> His claw looks like my grip. The problem is with that grip on the g502, my ring finger has nothing to lift the mouse with. So it has to squeeze hard to lift... not fun on such a heavy mouse either. On the 500, 518, and g400 both my ring finger and pinky fit under the good sized lip and I can lift the mouse with my thumb and ring finger with almost no pressure. The g502 just doesn't work so I'm hoping the g402 has enough lip to do what I did with the g400... probably not.


I had the G402 and I had exactly the same problem. I was squeezing too hard and my hand hurt after a while. I returned it


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SaltedSlug*
> 
> His claw looks like my grip. The problem is with that grip on the g502, my ring finger has nothing to lift the mouse with. So it has to squeeze hard to lift... not fun on such a heavy mouse either. On the 500, 518, and g400 both my ring finger and pinky fit under the good sized lip and I can lift the mouse with my thumb and ring finger with almost no pressure. The g502 just doesn't work so I'm hoping the g402 has enough lip to do what I did with the g400... probably not.


From what I gather the right side curves a bit more than the G502 and it also has the horizontal ridges to help with grip. I'm not sure if this is enough for you. I would suggest trying it out on a purchase from somewhere with a good return policy.


----------



## tcboy88

my g402 middle click starts malfunctioning, it doesn't click most of the time
I bought it roughly 4 months ago.
It is covered in warranty?
I am in South Korea.

p/s: I thought Logitech has higher build quality, which is why I change from Razer to Logitech.
I was tired of the low build quality of Razer, especially on the buttons.
But apparently, Logitech build quality is the same as Razer nowadays?
Or I am just unlucky?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tcboy88*
> 
> my g402 middle click starts malfunctioning, it doesn't click most of the time
> I bought it roughly 4 months ago.
> It is covered in warranty?
> I am in South Korea.
> 
> p/s: I thought Logitech has higher build quality, which is why I change from Razer to Logitech.
> I was tired of the low build quality of Razer, especially on the buttons.
> But apparently, Logitech build quality is the same as Razer nowadays?
> Or I am just unlucky?


Yes, covered by warranty. Probably unlucky.


----------



## tcboy88

ok, contacted logitech (was a hassle) and sending it back tomorrow.

hopefully they will replace it for me eventhough it is just a middle click problem
(quite big problem for me)


----------



## SmashTV

They have pretty kick ass customer support in the USA.

Hopefully your next one is fine.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> They have pretty kick ass customer support in the USA.
> 
> Hopefully your next one is fine.


Just be glad you're an American







.


----------



## hza

Logitech has a very nice support in Europe as well (personal experience), probably worldwide? Idk... I live only in Europe.


----------



## discoprince

i really like the G400 shape and have been using my G400s for quite some time now (yaya complain about swamp cursor or smoothing if you want i don't notice it).

i was using a G302 since launch and while the button clicks are amazing and i liked the shape _at first_, i wasn't crazy about a few things on the mouse. the cable and the weight of it (compared to the size, it felt really heavy for such a small mouse, even though its 85g or something). also the shape started to wear on my hand after long hours of gaming, which doesnt happen with the G400 shape.

anyways i was looking at the G402 as an alternative and also the Finalmouse 2015 but i think ill stay away from the FM until it gets 1000hz polling and fixes some QC issues that ive been reading about.

Whats the shape like on the G402 compared to the G400 shape and what are the button clicks like? The buttons clicks on my g400s i am in love with, they are so light its perfect for rts/arpgs and just clicking in general. I personally like the lip on the G400 shape because thats where i rest my ring finger and it seems like they've almost abolished it on the G402.
I'm not too concerned with sensor performance as it uses the same sensor thats in my G100s, G302 so im used to the performance it offers.

So ultimately I'm really concerned with comfort and the button clicks, ill probably disable and tape down the sniper button because thats what I did on my G502.
Also how is the scroll wheel? Is it anything like the G302 scrollwheel? because its good, the G400s scrollwheeel is total garbage.

thanks


----------



## Mych

There's a bit of that right side lip left, not sure if enough for anyone's finger; clicks are not on par with G302 but still better than vast majority including G400 imo; scroll wheel identical to G302, mid click seems stiffer, but might be just due to me using G302 more. Worth a try I'd say, especially if you can return it.

Some have also complained about the cord which definitely isn't the best but on mine it's not worse than G302's either. And the feet are better than on G502 and G302.


----------



## iceskeleton

Middle click on g402 is definitely stiffer than g302, much prefer the one on g302. Cable is the about the same as far as I can tell. You are right about the lip being less pronounced, but I can't say for sure how you would like it.


----------



## kicksome

It's a shame that the subtle differences between the 502 and 402 just rub me the wrong way. 502 fits me like an absolute glove but it's just too heavy, and the 402 right side "lip" is just not quite right, 502 shape with 402 weight would be spot on


----------



## messer19

I´ve just bought G402 to compare with G502 and to see if it will perform better in CS GO. Man, this mouse sits in my hand like it was tailored for it. Apart from G502 is easy and glides very well. After few hours ingame I must say I´m decided to keep it. The cable is rudiculously stiff, that´s right. But the mouses shape and weight is absolute winner for me.


----------



## condumitru

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *messer19*
> 
> this mouse sits in my hand like it was tailored for it


How do you grip it ? do you touch it with the metacarpals ?


----------



## messer19

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *condumitru*
> 
> How do you grip it ? do you touch it with the metacarpals ?


Actually only a little bit. U use fingertip grip but can also feelt it on the bottom of my palm which gives me better control feeling.


----------



## yinx

I tried it at my local store today. It felt to me like a lower FK1... which I love. I have my hand far back on the mouse so I won't use any of the side buttons. I only touch the mouse with the base of my pinky and my fingertips, and it seemed great for my grip.

I don't want to drop any money on it though







I love my FK1, but I also would like to try something new sometime...


----------



## aayman_farzand

G402 on sale in Amazon and BestBuy for $35. Great deal.


----------



## hasukka

Having a bit of trouble with the logitech software. I loaned my mates G402 wanting to try it out. My main mouse is G100s and I kept it plugged in while I was installing drivers for the G402. The drivers now only recognize the G100S. If I have the G100s unplugged, the drivers tell me that I have "No devices plugged in".

I've tried uninstalling the drivers and installing while having only the G100s plugged in. Tried clearing all the Hidden/unused devices from device manager while having a 3rd mouse plugged in (which would mean cleaning out the two Logitech mice), cleaning the windows registry by searching for "logitech" entries.

My laptop recognizes the G402 just fine, but none of this helps to get it working on my PC. My G402 still doesn't get recognized, and when I plug my G100s back in it does. I mean I would like to test out the "Surface calibration" and other CPI/DPI settings without having to plug it into my laptop and setting it up there =(.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hasukka*
> 
> Having a bit of trouble with the logitech software. I loaned my mates G402 wanting to try it out. My main mouse is G100s and I kept it plugged in while I was installing drivers for the G402. The drivers now only recognize the G100S. If I have the G100s unplugged, the drivers tell me that I have "No devices plugged in".
> 
> I've tried uninstalling the drivers and installing while having only the G100s plugged in. Tried clearing all the Hidden/unused devices from device manager while having a 3rd mouse plugged in (which would mean cleaning out the two Logitech mice), cleaning the windows registry by searching for "logitech" entries.
> 
> My laptop recognizes the G402 just fine, but none of this helps to get it working on my PC. My G402 still doesn't get recognized, and when I plug my G100s back in it does. I mean I would like to test out the "Surface calibration" and other CPI/DPI settings without having to plug it into my laptop and setting it up there =(.


Try to run the LGS as Administrator.
Or try any of these.

BTW, the G402 doesn't have Surface Calibration. (thank God...)


----------



## hasukka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jaffa2843*
> 
> Try to run the LGS as Administrator.
> Or try any of these.
> 
> BTW, the G402 doesn't have Surface Calibration. (thank God...)


Thanks mate, the info on that link fixed it.


----------



## Maximillion

Alright, I have to bring up something of note. I'm starting to believe the G402 hasn't sold nearly as well as initially projected/expected. I own the mouse and performance-wise it's solid but I just find the fact it's constantly on sale now somewhat odd.

$35 on Amazon / $30 on Newegg

I mean, I'm aware that other mice in the Logi lineup (502/302/303) have also dropped down but this thing is literally selling at half price. It seems to be the ugly step-child in the bunch.


----------



## detto87

OR Logitech is planning to refresh the G402 into the -> G403 with the 3366 sensor.


----------



## Brightmist

They should refresh all their shells with sidebuttons and 3366 really.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brightmist*
> 
> They should refresh all their shells with sidebuttons and 3366 really.


The sensor is fine in this mouse. No need for an upgrade. Fusion does the job and accurately too.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Alright, I have to bring up something of note. I'm starting to believe the G402 hasn't sold nearly as well as initially projected/expected. I own the mouse and performance-wise it's solid but I just find the fact it's constantly on sale now somewhat odd.
> 
> $35 on Amazon / $30 on Newegg
> 
> I mean, I'm aware that other mice in the Logi lineup (502/302/303) have also dropped down but this thing is literally selling at half price. It seems to be the ugly step-child in the bunch.


It's going down the same path as its predecessors (MX518/400/s) which were known sales magnets. The other mouse known to do that heavy was the wireless variant which is now closer to 50 bucks on most sites (700/s/602) compared to MSRP.

Oddly, the G402 and I think two other gaming mice are not listed as gaming mice on Amazon so I can't find out how well its selling compared to the competition on Amazon.


----------



## Omega215d

For those near a Best Buy, they too have the mouse for sale at that price if you want to have it in hand quickly. They also pricematch Amazon (Amazon not 3rd party). Same goes for people living near a Microcenter (i'm on the east coast for now and don't have a Fry's here).


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mych*
> 
> There's a bit of that right side lip left, not sure if enough for anyone's finger; clicks are not on par with G302 but still better than vast majority including G400 imo; scroll wheel identical to G302, mid click seems stiffer, but might be just due to me using G302 more. Worth a try I'd say, especially if you can return it.
> 
> Some have also complained about the cord which definitely isn't the best but on mine it's not worse than G302's either. And the feet are better than on G502 and G302.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iceskeleton*
> 
> Middle click on g402 is definitely stiffer than g302, much prefer the one on g302. Cable is the about the same as far as I can tell. You are right about the lip being less pronounced, but I can't say for sure how you would like it.


I ended up getting one with the sales that were going on, should be here today.
If its a similar cable to the G302 then I know what I'm in for and its not a big deal.
The stiffer middle click sounds like a bummer but it wouldn't be the first mouse in my collection with a stiff middle click (G502 lol) so I'm not really bummed about it.

We'll see how much I like the shape, I'm going through my right handed ergonomic phase again and have been playing with my EC2 Evo cL lately (my fav ergo mouse). Was using my G400s before that and I like the G400 shape so this should be a good fit, its close enough and weighs less too.

EDIT: Received it, first impressions are that its just alright. The sniper button is instantly disabled, my thumb rests exactly where it is.
Next thoughts are that they should have just put the dpi buttons in front of/back of where the scroll wheel is like on the original G400 model. There is a ton of real estate there going unused.
I was worried about the length of the mouse for whatever reason, this is a non issue the shape fits nice in my hand. I wish it was a tad bit wider though.
I was worried about the lip NOT being there, I liked to rest my ring finger there on the original model but it rests fine in its new place on the side.

The cable is stiff but honestly not a big factor for me here, I was worried about it being the same diameter of the G302 cable which is pretty thick. Its much thinner and easier to bungie up, its out of the way and hasn't bothered me at all.
The scrolling action on the scroll wheel is the same as the G302 but like people have mentioned its stiff to click, most certainly. A softer tactile click here is much preferred. I do enjoy this scroll wheel scrolling action though, its tactile you can feel every bump.

Side buttons are in a decent place, I don't like them nearly as much as the ones on my G400 though. They feel mushy even though they make a tactile click sound and I feel like I have to give them much more of a press to actuate them unlike on the G400. All in all, not so great here.

Mouse button 1 and 2 clicks feel fine. Not as light as the clicks on my G400 but they feel more tactile and will hopefully last longer than those on the old model. Honestly after playing with a G302 and using those main button clicks its hard to compare and say anything good about another mouse's clicks. They are just too good. Maybe logitech will start to add them to all their mice in the future.

The AM010 in this mouse feels tighter than the one in my G302, G100S. In the G302 it kind of feels like its slipping away from me at times, is the best way i can explain it but here in the G402 I feel more in control. Same for the G100S. Using 800dpi/1000hz, 1 profile. Tracks fine like the other AM010 models I own on Artisan Hayate black.

All in all im glad I paid $30 for it instead of full price, I feel its worth the $30 not so much the $50 or $60 full price tag. I can see it being in my rotation for now and will continue to use it but I can see a Final Mouse or Zowie EC2-A replacing it if those will ever come down in price.


----------



## Omega X

Ok, so I bought this during the recent NewEgg sale. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised.

My main concern was the sniper button, but now that I've been using it, the button is much farther up than I thought. The shape also fills my hand out a lot more than I thought it would.

The buttons seem a bit more soft. Or perhaps light? Since it fills my hand, palming it feels more natural so clicks maybe easier? My new concern is the wheel button. It has that soft style rubber. Hopefully it won't crumble like a certain Sidewinder mouse I had before.


----------



## guywithtwohands

I bought the *G502* a few days ago and have found it to be too heavy.

I also found the protruding pattern on the side grips to be distracting. Coming from the MX5xx/G400 shape, the removal of the right 'lip' where I rest my ring finger is also a bit of a problem. My hand is ~19 cm from wrist to tip of middle finger.

It looks like the *G402* would solve some of the issues I have with the G502, but I'm still a little worried about the slight change in shape (by the looks of it), but given that it's meant to be an actual successor to the G400s, surely it would have to be very much the same? In any case, I will likely be returning the G502 tomorrow.

A couple of months ago I started having some issues with the right mouse button on my G400 and the mouse feet are pretty worn now, hence the search for a new mouse. I believe the warranty has likely expired, but I have previously heard of Logitech's good customer support so perhaps I should try contacting them before making another purchase? I did find an email address to write to, but it's been almost 2 weeks with zero response or acknowledgement of even receiving my email.

Is there a contact form on their website and if so, where? Found it. Apparently you need to create an account and go through various steps before it lets you create a 'support case'.


----------



## mynameisandy

calling logitech support for me has been faster than creating a support case on their website


----------



## neobim

Just recently got one of these and a G502. The G502 is nice, but a bit heavy for my taste. May be able to get used to it, but I much prefer the light weight of the G402.

However, the scroll wheel is pretty bad for me.

If I push the mouse wheel down, I'll feel it click, but nothing actually registers until I push down even more, at which point I have no tactile feedback for when it actually registers the button press.

Additionally, if I scroll the wheel back and forth a bit, half of the scrolls aren't registering.

Is this normal, or is my unit defective?

If this is a known flaw, would anyone happen to know any other mice with a similar shape?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neobim*
> 
> Just recently got one of these and a G502. The G502 is nice, but a bit heavy for my taste. May be able to get used to it, but I much prefer the light weight of the G402.
> 
> However, the scroll wheel is pretty bad for me.
> 
> If I push the mouse wheel down, I'll feel it click, but nothing actually registers until I push down even more, at which point I have no tactile feedback for when it actually registers the button press.
> 
> Additionally, if I scroll the wheel back and forth a bit, half of the scrolls aren't registering.
> 
> Is this normal, or is my unit defective?
> 
> If this is a known flaw, would anyone happen to know any other mice with a similar shape?


My wheel registers on click here and no other problem with the wheel scrolling. Not a normal issue from what I gather so you might wanna RMA.

My wheel is a tad stiff but with use it's gotten better.


----------



## dontspamme

How difficult would it be to replace this sensor with that of a G303?

I have a G303 collecting dust, waiting to be sacrificed for a better shell...


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> How difficult would it be to replace this sensor with that of a G303?
> 
> I have a G303 collecting dust, waiting to be sacrificed for a better shell...


rumor has it theres a G403 incoming.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> rumor has it theres a G403 incoming.


Eew...


----------



## boogdud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> rumor has it theres a G403 incoming.


I'm good with that actually, all the 403 needs IMO is a better cable.


----------



## Mych

Plus that new button system from G302/3.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> rumor has it theres a G403 incoming.


Source? I wouldn't upgrade personally. Fusion Engine is great tracking as well as accurate.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Source? I wouldn't upgrade personally. Fusion Engine is great tracking as well as accurate.


I also prefer it to any other sensor/implementation so far. Felt a bit better than g303,even.


----------



## detto87

You're probably used to sensors with lower frame rates. 3366 is definitely the better sensor, if not the best.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> You're probably used to sensors with lower frame rates. 3366 is definitely the better sensor, if not the best.


Definitely is a better sensor, but I don't have reason to upgrade. I'm not OCD about having the best sensor available. This mouse works great for me and I am thoroughly satisfied.


----------



## ramraze

If we did a poll about how many people like the shape of the g402, I wonder how many people would say no. I would use it as my dd, if it wasn't for a few things+the relatively narrow body+butt.


----------



## guywithtwohands

Just got this one in the mail today (Amazon express shipping was only 80 cent more than standard shipping for some reason







). So far I like it a lot more than the G502; it's lighter, the 'lip' from the MX5xx/G400 is sort of still there on the G402 (although not quite as large, but it seems to work for me) which makes it a lot more comfortable, the smooth rubber feels much nicer to grip than the textured stuff on the 502. I also think the scroll wheel is better on the G402, although the clicks aren't as well-defined as on the MX518 and G400, but I don't think it bothers me. Overall very good and a good enough successor to the G400, I think. But the cable is quite stiff.

As for the sensor... It seems good enough. I have already returned the G502, so I can't exactly compare them, but even going from G400 to G502, I didn't notice too much of a difference other than maybe that my G400 is one of the early models with angle snapping enabled (but even this is so minor I don't think I notice it under normal usage). It's a similar story going from G400 to G402.

Button placement also seems nicer. The "sniper"-button in particular feels more convenient than on the G502. From looking at pictures before trying either of these two mice, I figured that the G502 looked more convenient, but I much prefer it on the G402.

So all in all, the way I see it, the only reason to get the G502 is the sensor, and, at least in my experience, that simply isn't a good enough reason at all.


----------



## dontspamme

May I ask where these rumours stem from?

I must say, a G403 sounds very tantalising.


----------



## ozzy1925

I found a good deal and ordered g402 today without knowing anything about it.







Which mouse pad should i buy? i want a xxl surface


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozzy1925*
> 
> I found a good deal and ordered g402 today without knowing anything about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which mouse pad should i buy? i want a xxl surface


Cost wise a PC Gaming Race pad will do.


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozzy1925*
> 
> I found a good deal and ordered g402 today without knowing anything about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which mouse pad should i buy? i want a xxl surface


I use this one with a G303:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TD0QU2?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1&ref_=navm_ftr_fullsite


----------



## ozzy1925

what do you guys think of this one? www.pcgamingrace.com/collections/gaming-mouse-mats-pads/products/glorious-xxl-gaming-mouse-mat-black


----------



## Rifleman007

I own both G303 and G402. I own supermats and steelseries 9HD as well as this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXPSYL6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A20O7ZIM03RW46

The last one works amazing.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozzy1925*
> 
> what do you guys think of this one? www.pcgamingrace.com/collections/gaming-mouse-mats-pads/products/glorious-xxl-gaming-mouse-mat-black


That'll do, per suggestion.


----------



## AuraDesruu

If the G403 took every good thing from all the G series mouses. I think that would be the greatest fps mouse ever..
G502's Sensor
G303/G302's Switches
Hybird of G400S/G402 ergonomics
Removed the sniper button

That would be an amazing fps mouse
I would totally dump my death adder and rival for it
I would throw money at the screen if they ever made a mouse like that.


----------



## iceskeleton

Don't forget an improved softer mouse wheel click (like the g302/3) and lighter cord.

Looking at the possible future products in general, logitech can't do wrong if they have no compromises. A g1 type mouse with all of that would a beast for example. The best clicks, sensor, and if they can improve the cord


----------



## ozzy1925

I was using 3$ mouse and today i received my g402 ,i dont know why but it seems kinda slow for me even i set it to max dpi and i am having a hard time clicking on small objects on the screen i disabled enhance pointer precision from windows 7 setting. btw my mouse pad is razer speed edition .


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozzy1925*
> 
> I was using 3$ mouse and today i received my g402 ,i dont know why but it seems kinda slow for me even i set it to max dpi and i am having a hard time clicking on small objects on the screen i disabled enhance pointer precision from windows 7 setting. btw my mouse pad is razer speed edition .


I do 800 dpi so that I can click single pixel if I need to. For the larger movements, I simply move my hand and arm around a lot!









Try something like that. Do not use the highest DPI. It just does not work for targeting pixels. You need to go down a lot if you want to be able to do that easily. I know this will feel slow to you, but this is the best answer people could come up with. Pretty much everyone agrees with this. This is the same for different types of games. It's both the opinion of CS players and also Starcraft, LoL, etc.

The "enhanced pointer precision" thingy can circumvent that slowness problem. This is what you might have used with your old mouse? Using it, it is possible to have fast speed while moving the hand fast, and then also still be able to target single pixels when moving the hand slow. The downside is that this might not be good for how you brain learns what to do with your hand. With "enhanced pointer precision" disabled, a movement of your hand will translate into the same distance, no matter if your hand is moving fast or is moving slow. People generally think that this is very good for learning how to be fast and precise with the mouse for games. People basically just suck it up and move the hand+arm a lot because there is no magic solution for both a high speed and easy targeting of pixels.


----------



## ozzy1925

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> I do 800 dpi so that I can click single pixel if I need to. For the larger movements, I simply move my hand and arm around a lot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try something like that. Do not use the highest DPI. It just does not work for targeting pixels. You need to go down a lot if you want to be able to do that easily. I know this will feel slow to you, but this is the best answer people could come up with. Pretty much everyone agrees with this. This is the same for different types of games. It's both the opinion of CS players and also Starcraft, LoL, etc.
> 
> The "enhanced pointer precision" thingy can circumvent that slowness problem. This is what you might have used with your old mouse? Using it, it is possible to have fast speed while moving the hand fast, and then also still be able to target single pixels when moving the hand slow. The downside is that this might not be good for how you brain learns what to do with your hand. With "enhanced pointer precision" disabled, a movement of your hand will translate into the same distance, no matter if your hand is moving fast or is moving slow. People generally think that this is very good for learning how to be fast and precise with the mouse for games. People basically just suck it up and move the hand+arm a lot because there is no magic solution for both a high speed and easy targeting of pixels.


Thanks +rep i set dpi to 1600 and its still very slow for me i cant live with 800 dpi and not sure if my mouse is faulty tbh







I was using enhanced pointer on with my old mouse .Shoud i disable it from windows and enable from logitech software?


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozzy1925*
> 
> Thanks +rep i set dpi to 1600 and its still very slow for me i cant live with 800 dpi and not sure if my mouse is faulty tbh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was using enhanced pointer on with my old mouse .Shoud i disable it from windows and enable from logitech software?


I don't think there is something like it in the Logitech software? I don't know for sure.

There really is no good solution where you have both a fast feel and still easy targeting of small spots. I can only tell you a story about why I started using the mouse without something like "enhanced pointer precision".



Spoiler: a story so that you might get some motivation to try it for yourself for a few days...



So... a long time ago I did play with acceleration for the mouse. I could aim pretty good like that. I played like an idiot without strategy, and my aim was the only thing I had that made me win, so my aim was very important to me. The serious problems showed up when I started playing serious matches. The matches happened on a schedule. There were some days where my aim was terrible and there was nothing I could do to play good. Because the matches were on a schedule, I could not avoid playing on my bad days. I could only disappoint my teammates on those days (or myself if it was a duel match). It felt bad.

The reason for the terrible aim on the bad days was the acceleration. My hand was moving at different speeds depending on how I was feeling. On the bad days, I was not just having terrible aim, I was also slower. The acceleration then made my aim super terrible. It was hopeless.

That's why I started playing without acceleration. Because I had pretty good aim previously, the first weeks were very hard. I was bad every day and could not get back to my good aim from before. After a while, even though I wasn't as good as before, my bad days stopped being very terrible. That's when I was convinced that acceleration is a terrible idea (at least for me).

It was hard. I don't know if it is a good idea for you to also do it, learn how to use the mouse without "enhanced pointer precision". You have to decide for yourself.


----------



## ozzy1925

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> I don't think there is something like it in the Logitech software? I don't know for sure.
> 
> There really is no good solution where you have both a fast feel and still easy targeting of small spots. I can only tell you a story about why I started using the mouse without something like "enhanced pointer precision".
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: a story so that you might get some motivation to try it for yourself for a few days...
> 
> 
> 
> So... a long time ago I did play with acceleration for the mouse. I could aim pretty good like that. I played like an idiot without strategy, and my aim was the only thing I had that made me win, so my aim was very important to me. The serious problems showed up when I started playing serious matches. The matches happened on a schedule. There were some days where my aim was terrible and there was nothing I could do to play good. Because the matches were on a schedule, I could not avoid playing on my bad days. I could only disappoint my teammates on those days (or myself if it was a duel match). It felt bad.
> 
> The reason for the terrible aim on the bad days was the acceleration. My hand was moving at different speeds depending on how I was feeling. On the bad days, I was not just having terrible aim, I was also slower. The acceleration then made my aim super terrible. It was hopeless.
> 
> That's why I started playing without acceleration. Because I had pretty good aim previously, the first weeks were very hard. I was bad every day and could not get back to my good aim from before. After a while, even though I wasn't as good as before, my bad days stopped being very terrible. That's when I was convinced that acceleration is a terrible idea (at least for me).
> 
> It was hard. I don't know if it is a good idea for you to also do it, learn how to use the mouse without "enhanced pointer precision". You have to decide for yourself.


thanks a lot for the info , i find out that my old mouse dpi was 970-980 (meausured with the mouse tester program) and i set g402 dpi to 980 (meaused with same program) but g402 moves way slower than the old one .Do you know why?


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozzy1925*
> 
> thanks a lot for the info , i find out that my old mouse dpi was 970-980 (meausured with the mouse tester program) and i set g402 dpi to 980 (meaused with same program) but g402 moves way slower than the old one .Do you know why?


It should just be the different settings in the Windows mouse options (perhaps the "enhanced pointer precision"). I would quit the Logitech driver to experiment after you've configured everything in there. Things should be pretty similar to the old mouse if you use the same settings in Windows.


----------



## ozzy1925

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> It should just be the different settings in the Windows mouse options (perhaps the "enhanced pointer precision"). I would quit the Logitech driver to experiment after you've configured everything in there. Things should be pretty similar to the old mouse if you use the same settings in Windows.


thats really weird but i can only get the same movement speed and sense only when i set logitech dpi to 2k.


----------



## Derp

For those who don't see this mouse as an abomination you can pick one up for $29.95 with free shipping at Newegg right now.


----------



## antCB

Supposedly will be getting this mouse as a free (logitech has got to be king in costumer support/after sales) replacement for my dying G400. Didn't like about some of the thing I read, would glady take the G400s instead of the G402.. But I'll draw my conclusions next Friday.

One of the "worst" features is the updated mouse feet design, those things (mouse feet in general) aren't widely available where I live, and I'll have to order replacement mouse feet from logitech/aftermarket brand sooner or later... And I still have a pair of new mouse feet for the G400 :\

Edit: how easy is the USB cord to replace on the G400 (got a deathadder that has a caved in thumb button and a faulty right click, might be able to salvage that one for the G400)? That has got to be the issue with it, and since the replacement is on transit as of today, I won't need it for warranty purposes anymore.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *antCB*
> 
> . Didn't like about some of the thing I read, would glady take the G400s instead of the G402.. But I'll draw my conclusions next Friday.


I thought that too and then I got the G402 and haven't looked back.
I've been using it for like a month now and that's big for me, I have a large collection and I usually switch mice pretty often.

I am interested in the Final Mouse and EC2-A as well.


----------



## antCB

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> I thought that too and then I got the G402 and haven't looked back.
> I've been using it for like a month now and that's big for me, I have a large collection and I usually switch mice pretty often.
> I am interested in the Final Mouse and EC2-A as well.


the Final Mouse looks a bit too "flimsy" in photos, maybe it is a sturdy piece of equipment







Zowie's pretty much a safe bet, they make good products, just their costumer support ins't god tier like Logitech's ^^ I would always be on the safe side with getting Zowie gear as I know a guy that is employed by them (fancy marketeer, dunno if he is the head of portuguese marketing or for the European Union).

I don't really exchange mice around too much, I'm a bit picky and try to get the best available always considering price/performance/durability ratios. The worst experience is with Razer, the best is with Logitech (last year I sold my first real gaming mouse to a friend, a trustworthy logitech mx518 from 2006. slap new mouse skates and you're good for another 6/8 months). I'm still processing Logitech's support response (took them 2 days and 1 email to get the right data they needed), bam, new mouse arriving friday. u n r e a l.

I've been trying to RMA my SS 6GV2, it started to randomly register multiple keypresses, and Steelseries wants me to pay for shipping for a product still within warranty period. just wow. lol


----------



## STRATEGY

anyone own G402 and G502? Could you please tell me how does the G402's sensor perform compare to G502?

Thanks in advance


----------



## aayman_farzand

G402 doesn't have surface calibration but yea that is a strange issue.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *STRATEGY*
> 
> anyone own G402 and G502? Could you please tell me how does the G402's sensor perform compare to G502?
> 
> Thanks in advance


I own a 402 and 303 (same sensor as 502) and I honestly cannot tell a difference. I use 800-1200 DPI, Logitech rep confirmed that there is smoothing of <1ms starting from 2000DPI.


----------



## STRATEGY

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> G402 doesn't have surface calibration but yea that is a strange issue.
> I own a 402 and 303 (same sensor as 502) and I honestly cannot tell a difference. I use 800-1200 DPI, Logitech rep confirmed that there is smoothing of <1ms starting from 2000DPI.


So you're going to tell me . It depends on my grip right? caz sensor is almost the same. btw i'm using 400DPI sen 4.64 in CSGO. My hand is so small about 18cm from the tip of middle finger to base.i'm currently using G502 and I felt like is a bit big ,feel like i can't move the mouse for the flick shot. Maybe I have to give a shot (G402)


----------



## ramraze

While I like Zowie mice, and have tried every model besides Mico, as well as a lot of other mice, imho zowie mice always feel less sturdy and cheapo-made without proper QC. At least in my experience the main components feel more sturdy on other brands. Of course there is nothing wrong with Zowie mice but if I was to draw a comparison from my experience, I would say they feel the cheapest made.

Logitech being the top ofc, followed by Roccat (everything except kova+)


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *STRATEGY*
> 
> So you're going to tell me . It depends on my grip right? caz sensor is almost the same. btw i'm using 400DPI sen 4.64 in CSGO. My hand is so small about 18cm from the tip of middle finger to base.i'm currently using G502 and I felt like is a bit big ,feel like i can't move the mouse for the flick shot. Maybe I have to give a shot (G402)


Well the G402 is also quite big. I don't have a G502 but I tried it out in a store, the G402 is slightly lighter than the lightest G502 and the size is not that much different. THe 502 extends out to the left more than the 402, other than that I don't think there's much of a difference in grip.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *STRATEGY*
> 
> So you're going to tell me . It depends on my grip right? caz sensor is almost the same. btw i'm using 400DPI sen 4.64 in CSGO. My hand is so small about 18cm from the tip of middle finger to base.i'm currently using G502 and I felt like is a bit big ,feel like i can't move the mouse for the flick shot. Maybe I have to give a shot (G402)


The G402 is bigger than the G502. So I wouldn't recomment it if the G502 is kinda big for you. Maybe a G303 if the shape is ok for your grip.


----------



## boogdud

I was thinking of picking up another g402 and saw yesterday they were $10-15 off at my local microcenter (can't remember). So I was going to go at lunch and pick one up and today the mouse is de-listed from their website. I'll probably go check at lunch but I thought that was curious. So I looked at best buy's site as well and it now shows as "unavailable". Not, out of stock, or 'look at another store' but unavailable. Amazon and newegg still have some in stock and they're deeply discounted, going for $39.

Looks like it might be getting phased out. Could be a new model coming in to replace it? A G403 anyone?

Honestly if they just released it with the cable from the g502/303 it would be a marked improvement.


----------



## asp93

i'm thinking about picking a g402, what's better g402 or cm storm alcor? does the gyro bugs g402 sensor? wich will track better in the goliathus speed megaman edition?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asp93*
> 
> i'm thinking about picking a g402, what's better g402 or cm storm alcor? does the gyro bugs g402 sensor? wich will track better in the goliathus speed megaman edition?


G402 tracks better and the gyroscope doesn't bug out nor otherwise interfere with tracking. Grip would be the deciding factor here.


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *STRATEGY*
> 
> So you're going to tell me . It depends on my grip right? caz sensor is almost the same. btw i'm using 400DPI sen 4.64 in CSGO. My hand is so small about 18cm from the tip of middle finger to base.i'm currently using G502 and I felt like is a bit big ,feel like i can't move the mouse for the flick shot. Maybe I have to give a shot (G402)


I now read this. I recommend 800 CPI and 2.32 in-game sensitivity instead of 400 and 4.64; you should have greater angular resolution with 800 and 2.32 versus 400 and 4.64.


----------



## asp93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> G402 tracks better and the gyroscope doesn't bug out nor otherwise interfere with tracking. Grip would be the deciding factor here.


hm, i tested my g100s on goliathus megaman and it didn't had a good tracking


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asp93*
> 
> hm, i tested my g100s on goliathus megaman and it didn't had a good tracking


Nothing will track good on that one.


----------



## L4dd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Nothing will track good on that one.


That's nice artwork!
I don't understand why people use these kind of pads for mouse tracking. It is more appreciated via its art, so why cover it with a mouse? Will you be looking at your pad when you play?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asp93*
> 
> hm, i tested my g100s on goliathus megaman and it didn't had a good tracking


Besides the art, my G402 & G602 track fine on the new Goliathus Speeds I have.

I have a plastic mat that made my Zowie mouse go crazy and my Logitech mice also track well there vs the 3090. Could be the custom lens though.


----------



## asp93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> That's nice artwork!
> I don't understand why people use these kind of pads for mouse tracking. It is more appreciated via its art, so why cover it with a mouse? Will you be looking at your pad when you play?


i prefer without artwork, just got it because was rly cheap that model in my country, my cm recon tracks ok on it, i have a zowie p-rf and a microsoft xl mousepad too


----------



## doomleika

Chances are you are busying looking at screen. Pics at mouse/pad will be covered anyway.

Never get why people want gaming equipment look like that.


----------



## acroback

So I got my new G402 in mail. Loving the shape, so close to G400s but still a little narrower than G400s and I like slender mice.

Is this fusion engine on by default?

Also, during my normal fast swipes at [email protected] dpi in CSGO, will the mouse malfunction without fusion engine turned on?

Thanks,


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acroback*
> 
> So I got my new G402 in mail. Loving the shape, so close to G400s but still a little narrower than G400s and I like slender mice.
> 
> Is this fusion engine on by default?
> 
> Also, during my normal fast swipes at [email protected] dpi in CSGO, will the mouse malfunction without fusion engine turned on?
> 
> Thanks,


You can't disable the fusion engine. The screen for it in the Logitech tool is just so that you can experiment with it a little to see what it does.


----------



## acroback

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> You can't disable the fusion engine. The screen for it in the Logitech tool is just so that you can experiment with it a little to see what it does.


Thank you for the answer.

I was worried, if it needs extra installation of Logitech software to be turned on.


----------



## boogdud

All kidding aside, I want that mousepad, like yesterday. How did I miss that one? Can't find it on the store, I don't care if it tracks, I just want it as desk art...


----------



## espn

Do you guys like g400s or g402 more?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> Do you guys like g400s or g402 more?


In what context? Overall? G402. I just prefer the old shape for the G400s but everything else is better for me in the G402.


----------



## acroback

What he said^^^^.

I have to change my grip to use G402 properly else I get a aching ring finger.

Maybe because it is slimmer than G400s.


----------



## espn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> In what context? Overall? G402. I just prefer the old shape for the G400s but everything else is better for me in the G402.


What is everything else?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> What is everything else?


Sensor, materials, performance, buttons, scroll wheel, onboard memory, et cetera.


----------



## espn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Sensor, materials, performance, buttons, scroll wheel, onboard memory, et cetera.


sound like impressive. When my g400s stop working then I may try g402.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> sound like impressive. When my g400s stop working then I may try g402.


That's is my personal input on the matter. If it has the same potato shell it'd be poifect for me.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> When my g400s stop working then I may try g402.


If you love your ancient G400 then don't expect that same type of affection for the G402 it is simply nothing like the G400, in fact it isn't even in the same orbit.

If I was you when your G400 starts going haywire, simply fix it with some new omrons, plus clean out the skin, hair and sweaty crap from inside your mouse and you'll see that old G400 will again work for another 10 years or so.

The BEST ever released Logitech model was this one, the G400 so keep it, because they (Logitech) are incapable of ever producing another product that can ever beat that famous mouse.


----------



## treach

my input:

G402 has way better coating than g400, it doesnt get greasy, g400 needs cleaning every few days

worst thing about G402 is ergonomics , no place to put my ring finger on


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> If you love your ancient G400 then don't expect that same type of affection for the G402 it is simply nothing like the G400, in fact it isn't even in the same orbit.


Of course it's similar to the G400. That is the base design.


----------



## espn

I think g402 looks more fancy, dont know which one offers better feeling.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Of course it's similar to the G400. That is the base design.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> If you love your ancient G400 then don't expect that same type of affection for the G402 it is simply nothing like the G400, in fact it isn't even in the same orbit.


uh, false. i loved my g400 and was extremely happy switching to the G402. the sensor feels way better and the shape/button clicks are great.

as i mentioned in another post in this thread i could do without the sniper button and the really stiff middle mouse click. but saying the G402 is _nothing_ like the G400 is just plain wrong.

right now im using a Finalmouse 2015 and that reminds me of a G400 as well, it has a lip to put my ring finger on and has a big concave for my thumb just like the original G400 did. its nice. the side buttons are crap though and im not the biggest fan of the scoll wheel either but its still easier to click than the G402.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> uh, false. i loved my g400 and was extremely happy switching to the G402. the sensor feels way better and the shape/button clicks are great.
> 
> as i mentioned in another post in this thread i could do without the sniper button and the really stiff middle mouse click. but saying the G402 is _nothing_ like the G400 is just plain wrong.
> 
> right now im using a Finalmouse 2015 and that reminds me of a G400 as well, it has a lip to put my ring finger on and has a big concave for my thumb just like the original G400 did. its nice. the side buttons are crap though and im not the biggest fan of the scoll wheel either but its still easier to click than the G402.


Exactly what i was thinking as far as the FM reminding me of my G400. Very comfortable for me.


----------



## Op1e

how to you guys feel the cable of this mouse, im tired of my rival with its heavy ass cable, pls answer


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Op1e*
> 
> how to you guys feel the cable of this mouse, im tired of my rival with its heavy ass cable, pls answer


This mouse has an annoying cable. It is thick and very stiff. I had to experiment a lot to find a good position for it on the table. I did eventually manage to find a good spot for it so that it did not annoy me while playing, but it wasn't easy.

I have never seen the Rival so I can't compare the cables.


----------



## espn

Cable part is same as g400s, i really hate it too.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> This mouse has an annoying cable. It is thick and very stiff. I had to experiment a lot to find a good position for it on the table. I did eventually manage to find a good spot for it so that it did not annoy me while playing, but it wasn't easy.
> 
> I have never seen the Rival so I can't compare the cables.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> Cable part is same as g400s, i really hate it too.


g400s' cable is very thin and light


----------



## chinesekiwi

Well, I have a G400 and a G402 side by side right here.

I prefer the G402 ergonomically for me. And it's lighter. Yes, the cable is more stiff on the G402 but for me, it's a minor issue vs. the ergonomics.


----------



## espn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> g400s' cable is very thin and light


I think both g400s and g402 cable are very hard to manage.


----------



## SmashTV

I like my G402 cable because it keeps its shape. I don't have to repeatedly tape it down.


----------



## AuraDesruu

I rebought the G402 to give it another go. I like everything except the switches. After using the FK 1 and loving the crap out of huanos. I cant deal with how smushy and bad omrons are now. AM010 feels so raw and snappy compared to the 3310.


----------



## e4stw00t

Yeah I found the 402's switches also rather bad - 502's implementation felt much better (G302/303 being supreme to everything out there for me).


----------



## Mych

Hmm funny, I found G402's clicks better than G502's. Tended to misclick with the latter, but I guess that might have to do with the shape, too.


----------



## Op1e

well i just got the mouse and it feels better than the rival i had, should i download the firmware update?

http://support.logitech.com/product/g402-hyperion-fury-fps-gaming-mouse


----------



## deepor

The original firmware had a bug. You could make the mouse freak out by drawing large circles on the mouse pad, if you moved your hand fast enough. This was fixed in a firmware update.

The mouse has a second sensor for tracking very fast movements, which the normal, optical sensor can't do. In the original firmware, that only worked correctly for the x-axis (this mean doing 180 degree turns in a game was fine), but it didn't work for the y-axis (looking up/down).


----------



## espn

Just try g402 and g502, both feel great but g502 is more solid and little bit bigger. They both look more fancy than my g400s. G502 has much better manageable cable.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Op1e*
> 
> well i just got the mouse and it feels better than the rival i had, should i download the firmware update?
> 
> http://support.logitech.com/product/g402-hyperion-fury-fps-gaming-mouse


If your mouse does not already have it: yes you should.


----------



## ignsvn

Just got this mouse a month ago. I'm a software developer & just a casual gamer.

My personal thoughts:

1) IMO, they could reduce the front-right side lip width so my ring finger can rest closer to the mouse. Additionally, perhaps it's just me, but the shape of that right side of the mouse makes me lift the mouse in awkward angle. Like.. the front part of the mouse get lifted first, then the back part.

2) I can say that it's wider than G502, at least on the parts where your hand grip the mouse (I palm grip, btw). Maybe it's because no 1) above.

3) Customizable thumb buttons are heaven sent.. Glad to be able to map PgUp/PgDown buttons and scroll through rows of codes









4) Cable is a bit stiff, but it's OK if it means better durability (I personally don't like braided cable).

5) Other than those.. I can say that G402 is a very good mouse.


----------



## Ufasas

ccan somebody measure width at the point where you grip 402, for example g502 width at grip (measured 60mm~ sth) is not the one width written on the paper


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> ccan somebody measure width at the point where you grip 402, for example g502 width at grip (measured 60mm~ sth) is not the one width written on the paper


Between my thumb and ring finger, more or less 59mm.
Between my thumb and little finger / pinky, more or less 64mm.

Little explanation: my little finger grabs the wider section of the mouse, where the ring finger rest on top of it, grabbing on the narrower section

Hand length from the base of palm to tip of middle finger: 18cm.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ignsvn*
> 
> Between my thumb and ring finger, more or less 59mm.
> Between my thumb and little finger / pinky, more or less 64mm.
> 
> Little explanation: my little finger grabs the wider section of the mouse, where the ring finger rest on top of it, grabbing on the narrower section
> 
> Hand length from the base of palm to tip of middle finger: 18cm.


Right, thanks for measuring, seems like good width, waiting for delivery this week, hate it when it's way below 59, like zowies -.- also i think the best shape to grip while playing hardcore is ovalish like rat t.e.


----------



## Ufasas

Got the mouse, and tried in csgo, way lighter and enjoyable to swipe left right, made 20 awp kills in 1st competitive game, was so fun, so smooth. Wish, that g502 was in shape and weight of g402. And stiff cable doesn't bother aim at all


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Got the mouse, and tried in csgo, way lighter and enjoyable to swipe left right, made 20 awp kills in 1st competitive game, was so fun, so smooth. Wish, that g502 was in shape and weight of g402. And stiff cable doesn't bother aim at all


Glad you like it.

Yea cable is a bit stiff but you can always hang it somewhere higher, or use a mouse bungee.

It's a bit awkward to lift (at least for me), but not a deal breaker, especially when G502 is like $20-$25 more expensive and I'm not a pro gamer at all.


----------



## asp93

is the accelerometer supposed to work on all settings? my g402 malfunctioned in csgo at 800dpi/500hz, but at 1000hz never malfunctioned (~42cm/360º)


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asp93*
> 
> is the accelerometer supposed to work on all settings? my g402 malfunctioned in csgo at 800dpi/500hz, but at 1000hz never malfunctioned (~42cm/360º)


It's always on (unless you leave software window open).

Can you recreate said malfunction? If so might be helpful to do a mousetester graph during said malfunction.


----------



## dartuil

Hello , I have a strange question is that mice water resistant?
I mean if my drink fall on it is it dead?


----------



## ozzy1925

Whats the first logitech driver that recognizes this mouse? Because i have a problem using this mouse with my g930 headset when i install the latest drivers i cant enable headset equalizer but when i switch to earlier drivers i can use headset equalizer but this time mouse is not working


----------



## Melcar

Got this mouse for my kid brother's birthday. To be honest, I prefer this one to the g502 I have. Sure, the g502 "feels" a bit better in my hand and the braided cable is nice, but the g402 just seems more no nonsense.
The buttons on the g402 are lower profile which to me make them more comfortable. Both are about the same in "grippiness" since they have that rubber stuff on the sides and the thumb rest on the g402 is adequate.
The mouse wheel on the g502, while nice in functionality (hyper scroll is fun), is one of those things you either hate or love. I could never get over the rattling it causes when scrolling and/or moving the mouse. At first I thought that I had a defective mouse, but then read on line that it was a common issue due to the heavy wheel. Putting the weights on mitigates the problem a bit, but then you end you with a heavy mouse.
The DPI profiles I also find to be a useless extra. I mean, the hell? Who needs all those DPI settings?
All in all, I think the g402 is a better deal for the money.


----------



## ramraze

The shell of the G402 can be removed of quite a bit of weights, without losing structural rigidity or functionality. I think mine weighs at 92g, while having the sidebuttons + everything else (- the cpi buttons, cause I never use them). It feels amazing, but unfortunately the shape is a bit too thin for me.


----------



## ronal

I saw Get_Right from NiP using the G402 at ESL Cologne.


----------



## Op1e

I saw him too


Spoiler: Warning: Pics











Never thought he would change his rival.


----------



## Ufasas

He started copying me, i'm switching rival to g402 several times per day, whichever feels more fun to me







what a bastard


----------



## ValkyrieS

Hi guys, i joined overclock.net because I wanted to ask something about my new mouse: Logitech G402. I was using Razer mice for 6-7 years and now i decided to switch to Logitech. I mention that this is my first Logitech product ever. I like the mouse design, looks, functionality but I do feel that something's off with LoD. I am a CSGO player and I cant help but notice that it has a little lift-off-distance. It's not much, but I'm noticing it and I'm kinda dissapointed because with Razer mice that I had (Krait, DeathAdder, DeathAdder 2013), LoD was 0. I downloaded the firmware upgrade software but it seems I already have the latest firmware installed. So my question is: *Do all of you guys have this minor issue with Logitech G402?*

P.S I mention that I am using Windows 10 and btw ... When I had DeathAdder, in my Device Manager I could see its name under Mice Category. Now that I have Logitech, all I see is HiD Compliant Mouse. Is this how its supposed to look ? Thank you guys in advance.


----------



## AuraDesruu

I noticed that the mouse feet attracts so must dust
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ValkyrieS*
> 
> Hi guys, i joined overclock.net because I wanted to ask something about my new mouse: Logitech G402. I was using Razer mice for 6-7 years and now i decided to switch to Logitech. I mention that this is my first Logitech product ever. I like the mouse design, looks, functionality but I do feel that something's off with LoD. I am a CSGO player and I cant help but notice that it has a little lift-off-distance. It's not much, but I'm noticing it and I'm kinda dissapointed because with Razer mice that I had (Krait, DeathAdder, DeathAdder 2013), LoD was 0. I downloaded the firmware upgrade software but it seems I already have the latest firmware installed. So my question is: *Do all of you guys have this minor issue with Logitech G402?*
> 
> P.S I mention that I am using Windows 10 and btw ... When I had DeathAdder, in my Device Manager I could see its name under Mice Category. Now that I have Logitech, all I see is HiD Compliant Mouse. Is this how its supposed to look ? Thank you guys in advance.


It's like 1.5-1.8mm LOD
Get a G240 or something to lower it or use the tape trick.


----------



## SmashTV

Can't say the G240 lowers lod any personally for the G402. Tape trick might be best if you're really anal about it but I have no experience in doing so on this mouse.


----------



## ValkyrieS

I should have mentioned that I also bought a G240 MousePad, but i dont know what "tape trick" is. Care to explain pls ?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ValkyrieS*
> 
> I should have mentioned that I also bought a G240 MousePad, but i dont know what "tape trick" is. Care to explain pls ?


http://www.overclock.net/t/1211083/tape-trick-for-lower-liftoff-distance-lod-with-optical-mice

Not sure if it's gonna work on the G402 but if you're that annoyed with LOD may as well give it a shot.


----------



## Ufasas

Was there a vote poll for best mouse pad for g402? : P is good with gt-f spawn hard cloth so far


----------



## bond10

What does a 3366 have over the AM010 besides higher control speeds??


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> What does a 3366 have over the AM010 besides higher control speeds??


Higher frame rate, larger pixel array, no smoothing, etc.


----------



## bond10

Can this mouse be gripped with two fingers on top and ring finger under the right lip (like the deathadder, IE 3.0, and Rival)? Or is it like the G400s where there is too much room on the right side that you're sort of forced to put three fingers on top.


----------



## 2shellbonus

Yes, it can


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Can this mouse be gripped with two fingers on top and ring finger under the right lip (like the deathadder, IE 3.0, and Rival)? Or is it like the G400s where there is too much room on the right side that you're sort of forced to put three fingers on top.


metal571 speaks on that exact topic in his review


----------



## ozzy1925

i feel my g402 starts the skip movements kinda lagging when using what could be the reason?here is the mouse tester result:set to 800dpi measured [email protected]



edit:I think i found out the problem.Running fraps on the background causes the lag


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

How much weight can you lop off this mouse without taking out the scroll wheel? I have no need for side buttons (only use back and forward for internet browsing)


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> How much weight can you lop off this mouse without taking out the scroll wheel? I have no need for side buttons (only use back and forward for internet browsing)


I've made it to about 92-93 g by feel. I took out all the extra screws, cpi buttons, led, sniper button, cut out part of the glossy frame. On the sniper button there was a useless frame as well. Also, I put small feet instead of the original ones.
Feels absolutely excellent in terms of weight but I can't stand the failed sides. If it hd straight sides it would be such a beast mouse, as I personally really dig the feel of the 1000 hz am010. Feels rly accurate too.

Edit: if you removed the side buttons you could probably go as low as 88-85 grams.


----------



## ignsvn

Guys, for some reason I need to use my G402 on PS2 port, but it doesn't seem to work. Can anybody help to confirm this?


----------



## Melan

It won't work with PS/2 port even with USB to PS/2 adapter. Well, unless manufacturer says it works but in that case you should have an adapter with device.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I've made it to about 92-93 g by feel. I took out all the extra screws, cpi buttons, led, sniper button, cut out part of the glossy frame. On the sniper button there was a useless frame as well. Also, I put small feet instead of the original ones.
> Feels absolutely excellent in terms of weight but I can't stand the failed sides. If it hd straight sides it would be such a beast mouse, as I personally really dig the feel of the 1000 hz am010. Feels rly accurate too.
> 
> Edit: if you removed the side buttons you could probably go as low as 88-85 grams.


Still a little too heavy for my tastes x_x


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> It won't work with PS/2 port even with USB to PS/2 adapter. Well, unless manufacturer says it works but in that case you should have an adapter with device.


Hmm ok as expected. Thanks for helping me confirming this.


----------



## sensit1ve

Could it be that the Mouse performs better when LGS is installed (Win 10)?


----------



## Ufasas

With gyro off

In Logitech Software it's 2.5m/s

so mousetester is not accurate or LGS 8.74 app ?

2nd swipe


----------



## Melan

I wouldn't trust LGS speedometer either tbh.


----------



## qsxcv

in those mousetester plots you have the gyro on... no way am010 does 3.5+m/s
i think lgs is showing you the max speed you'd get without the gyro or something


----------



## Melan

I can unbox my backup 402 and test it.


----------



## 2shellbonus

Gyro is off only when the LGS window is in foreground (ie the active app). If you minimize it the gyro will turn back on


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2shellbonus*
> 
> Gyro is off only when the LGS window is in foreground (ie the active app). If you minimize it the gyro will turn back on


EH! What weirdness, ok, redoings tests..


----------



## Ufasas




----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> in those mousetester plots you have the gyro on... no way am010 does 3.5+m/s
> i think lgs is showing you the max speed you'd get without the gyro or something


You can never turn off the gyro in g402...
The speedometer is only showing you what would of happen if you turned off the gyro.


----------



## qsxcv

oh yea what if you desolder it?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> oh yea what if you desolder it?


What if it burns out?


----------



## qsxcv

what's gunna burn out if u remove something??


----------



## Maestro1337

is this mouse any good?


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maestro1337*
> 
> is this mouse any good?


In short, yes. But perhaps more detailed question can help the others to give you more detailed answers.


----------



## Maestro1337

How is it in terms of sensor? Can it compete with the best ones?


----------



## qsxcv

yes


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maestro1337*
> 
> How is it in terms of sensor? Can it compete with the best ones?


It uses AM010 sensor, same like G100s. Generally considered to be flawless up to 2000 dpi. If memory serves me right, above that it has slight but consistent smoothing.

Additionally G402 has fusion engine to allow for higher error tolerance during high speed movement, but again, from what i've read, most people won't ever hit that malfunction speed.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maestro1337*
> 
> How is it in terms of sensor? Can it compete with the best ones?


Yes.


----------



## Ufasas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maestro1337*
> 
> How is it in terms of sensor? Can it compete with the best ones?


Switching from Rival to G402 in games on the fly, wish i bought those two at the time they were released, would reduce my researches, lol, i'd say they equaly top mice in sensor performance


----------



## kd5151

This mouse and the g240 mousepad will be on sale at officedepot/officemax for $30 on black friday. I have a g303 and thinking about getting this.its an offer you cant refuse! The shape and sensor wobble is starting to get to me on the g303 after months of use. Its a great mouse but like to try something different. Keep in mind bestbuy is also having 50% off all logitech gaming mouses and keyboards on blackfriday also.but i dont think they carry the g402 anymore.anyways ymmv. @~


----------



## aayman_farzand

Yes it's supposed
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kd5151*
> 
> This mouse and the g240 mousepad will be on sale at officedepot/officemax for $30 on black friday. I have a g303 and thinking about getting this.its an offer you cant refuse! The shape and sensor wobble is starting to get to me on the g303 after months of use. Its a great mouse but like to try something different. Keep in mind bestbuy is also having 50% off all logitech gaming mouses and keyboards on blackfriday also.but i dont think they carry the g402 anymore.anyways ymmv. @~


The G240 isn't that great, it moves around if you do fast swipes. $30 for the G402 alone isn't a bad deal, but it has been close to that price sometimes.


----------



## DrSebWilkes

How much does the mouse reports deviate from distance travelled when the Gryo kicks in?

(IE is there accel there?) Just keeping my mind open even after owning the G303; if Guardian can be the best in the world with a not-amazing mouse, then maybe I can improve with a not-amazing mouse too.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DrSebWilkes*
> 
> How much does the mouse reports deviate from distance travelled when the Gryo kicks in?
> 
> (IE is there accel there?) Just keeping my mind open even after owning the G303; if Guardian can be the best in the world with a not-amazing mouse, then maybe I can improve with a not-amazing mouse too.


Even if there isnt accel I dont think you would be able to control it at 2.7m/s. All that matters is it doesn't fail on you and keeps moving the correct direction.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DrSebWilkes*
> 
> How much does the mouse reports deviate from distance travelled when the Gryo kicks in?
> 
> (IE is there accel there?) Just keeping my mind open even after owning the G303; if Guardian can be the best in the world with a not-amazing mouse, then maybe I can improve with a not-amazing mouse too.


To quote CPate it tracks within the variance range of the G400/G400s.

So if you liked either of those for tracking the G402 will be within/somewhat better in terms of variance.


----------



## Pa12a

How does the G402 feel with the tracking, is it more like a G400 or more towards a G100s?


----------



## SmashTV

Not sure what you're going at with that. It shares the same sensor as the G100s and Fusion Engine tracks as good as a G400.

Personally I don't own a G100s or a G400 at the moment so I cannot fully respond to that. What I can answer is does the sensor feel good? Definitely.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

It'd probably feel more raw than the G400 and less smooth. It will definitely feel better than the G100s since its essentially the same sensor with a better SROM.


----------



## Pa12a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Not sure what you're going at with that. It shares the same sensor as the G100s and Fusion Engine tracks as good as a G400.
> 
> Personally I don't own a G100s or a G400 at the moment so I cannot fully respond to that. What I can answer is does the sensor feel good? Definitely.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> It'd probably feel more raw than the G400 and less smooth. It will definitely feel better than the G100s since its essentially the same sensor with a better SROM.


All I needed, thanks. I just wasn't sure cause I felt like the G100S felt a little too wonky for me with the tracking, but that coulda been the completely the mouse feet that my brother probably chewed on before he lent the mouse to me. Aye. And I guess the SROM too.


----------



## AuraDesruu

Okay
I retract my statement
I just got my G402 yesterday and played a few games with the G402.
I noticed that you actually can turn off the fusion engine if you select it off while minimizing the software.
I swiped really hard in cs go yesterday and it malfunctioned..


----------



## connectwise

This prolly been answered before but please oblige my ignorance, can the sniper button be reprogrammed to another key and or macro?

Cheers.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *connectwise*
> 
> This prolly been answered before but please oblige my ignorance, can the sniper button be reprogrammed to another key and or macro?
> 
> Cheers.


Yes. Can do that and more with the software.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> Okay
> I retract my statement
> I just got my G402 yesterday and played a few games with the G402.
> I noticed that you actually can turn off the fusion engine if you select it off while minimizing the software.
> I swiped really hard in cs go yesterday and it malfunctioned..


mousetester plot of malfunciton?


----------



## AuraDesruu

It was ingame in cs go
Not a plot tester
I made it malfunction as I was swiping it just froze in the middle.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> I noticed that you actually can turn off the fusion engine if you select it off while minimizing the software.


can you do this and plot in mousetester to confirm that the engine is off?

could just be a glitch of some sort. when am010 malfunctions it usually goes kind of crazy vertically


----------



## Pa12a

How is the LOD on the G402? Ino said in the review that it's pretty low but when I look at some other people they say it's extremely high (one guy tapefixed it to make it alright).


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> can you do this and plot in mousetester to confirm that the engine is off?
> 
> could just be a glitch of some sort. when am010 malfunctions it usually goes kind of crazy vertically


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu1I9P5tkPo
Not always but very close
I mean I'll try to get a mouse plot soon this tahnks giving
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pa12a*
> 
> How is the LOD on the G402? Ino said in the review that it's pretty low but when I look at some other people they say it's extremely high (one guy tapefixed it to make it alright).


It's 1.8mm on a steelseries qck
While I feel its high I think its due to the way I lift up the mouse compared to that of a rival..


----------



## rpalmer92

delete


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu1I9P5tkPo
> Not always but very close
> I mean I'll try to get a mouse plot soon this tahnks giving
> It's 1.8mm on a steelseries qck
> While I feel its high I think its due to the way I lift up the mouse compared to that of a rival..


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu1I9P5tkPo
> Not always but very close
> I mean I'll try to get a mouse plot soon this tahnks giving
> It's 1.8mm on a steelseries qck
> While I feel its high I think its due to the way I lift up the mouse compared to that of a rival..


How does the rival compare to the 402? I currently have the 402 and the right lip is a tad annoying. How much bulkier does the rival feel in the hand?


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2shellbonus*
> 
> How does the rival compare to the 402? I currently have the 402 and the right lip is a tad annoying. How much bulkier does the rival feel in the hand?


Rival is way longer than the g402 first of all. Majority of the weight in the g402 is centered while the rival's weight is put in the back of the mouse.G402 tracking feels less smoothed and processed compared to the 3310 on the rival. Both mice are good but it all really depends on the shape of the mouse. I really like the G402 so I stuck wit hit.


----------



## plyr

The right side of the G402 keeps you ring and pinky finger closer to each other, on rival the position is more natural, and more comfortable. Sensor feel on G402 is great, but cant beat the LOD on the rival.


----------



## Pa12a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plyr*
> 
> The right side of the G402 keeps you ring and pinky finger closer to each other, on rival the position is more natural, and more comfortable. Sensor feel on G402 is great, but cant beat the LOD on the rival.


I've been spoiled too much by the LOD of the Rival, FK and G502... Can't use anything higher which made the G402 a deal breaker for me, sadly.


----------



## plyr

So, I oppened my g402 to change the cable, and I could find 30 screws... thats a lot...


----------



## tunelover

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pa12a*
> 
> I've been spoiled too much by the LOD of the Rival, FK and G502... Can't use anything higher which made the G402 a deal breaker for me, sadly.


buy g303 on bestbuy for 25$


----------



## tmgz

How does the G402 feel in the hand compared to the G400s? Does it feel bulkier and longer?


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tmgz*
> 
> How does the G402 feel in the hand compared to the G400s? Does it feel bulkier and longer?


To me it feels smaller.


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plyr*
> 
> So, I oppened my g402 to change the cable, and I could find 30 screws... thats a lot...


If you can remove some screws, you can reduce the weight even further.


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2shellbonus*
> 
> How does the rival compare to the 402? I currently have the 402 and the right lip is a tad annoying. How much bulkier does the rival feel in the hand?


If I recall correctly, Rival's mid hump is higher than G402. Thus, the base of my index & middle fingers always touch that hump. IMO the feel is quite similar with Razer DeathAdders.

If it suits you, you might find it more comfortable.

I agree the right lip on G402 is a bit annoying, but not a dealbreaker. It helps me to grab and lift the mouse.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tmgz*
> 
> How does the G402 feel in the hand compared to the G400s? Does it feel bulkier and longer?


Does not feel as bulky. The profiles side by side you'll see the G402 is noticeably smaller from its flatter profile.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> It's always on (unless you leave software window open).


i guess they changed it?
because i can turn it off and close lgs and it still malfunctions


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i guess they changed it?
> because i can turn it off and close lgs and it still malfunctions


That would be cool if that's the case.


----------



## asp93

one of the glides on the side of the sensor on my g402 is sharp and causing friction on my mousepad, can i remove both of the glides on the side of sensor? will it affect tracking, make cursor skip?


----------



## qsxcv

so the effect of smoothing at >=2080dpi is pretty subtle. these lines were drawn with the mouse tilted/raised so that it only intermittently tracks


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i guess they changed it?
> because i can turn it off and close lgs and it still malfunctions


It was implied that it was always on no matter what and I had even tested it (though long ago when I first got the mouse). Not that I would ever keep it off for any reason unless I was a wacko like r0ach.

Did you get the mouse BTW?

EDIT: Implied on always outside the speed test in the software just to clarify.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ignsvn*
> 
> If you can remove some screws, you can reduce the weight even further.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plyr*
> 
> So, I oppened my g402 to change the cable, and I could find 30 screws... thats a lot...


You can remove a lot to reduce the weight. 80% of the screws, top cpi buttons, snipe buttons, sidebutton frame, led cover, etc. You can even remove part of the glossy midframe (or completely).
I cut my weight down from 108g to like 93-94g approx.

You can even remove the sidebuttons if you don't use them.
Without sidebuttons and glossy frame it will be like 85-90 grams.
This would not hinder the performance.

The G402 is 41mm high. Rival is 45mm.


----------



## Snakesoul

Hi all,

So with black friday, I bought g402, coming from an old and tired G400.
Haven't received it yet, but got some questions....
What are the cpi streps out of box? Should I install Logitech software? Or I can just plug and play?
Is this a good upgrade?


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snakesoul*
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> So with black friday, I bought g402, coming from an old and tired G400.
> Haven't received it yet, but got some questions....
> What are the cpi streps out of box? Should I install Logitech software? Or I can just plug and play?
> Is this a good upgrade?


If you don't need deep customization, macro etc then I guess you don't need to install the software.

Not sure about the out of the box cpi steps.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snakesoul*
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> So with black friday, I bought g402, coming from an old and tired G400.
> Haven't received it yet, but got some questions....
> What are the cpi streps out of box? Should I install Logitech software? Or I can just plug and play?
> Is this a good upgrade?


Logitech software is up to you. I think it's relatively hands off on the newer mice so no loss in using it.

According to the first post:
Quote:


> Standard out of the box is: 400, 800, 1600, 3200


Overall I'd consider it an upgrade. If you were in love with the old potato shell this one is slimmer and a bit lower to accommodate claw grips but is otherwise very similar. Separated clicks, better button placement, onboard memory, etc.


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Logitech software is up to you. I think it's relatively hands off on the newer mice so no loss in using it.
> 
> According to the first post:
> Overall I'd consider it an upgrade. If you were in love with the old potato shell this one is slimmer and a bit lower to accommodate claw grips but is otherwise very similar. Separated clicks, better button placement, onboard memory, etc.


I've never really understood the whole seperate clicks. How does seperating the plastic from the body actually help the click feeling? I'm getting a deathadder tommorow to replace my G402 because of the thumb button annoyance.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> I've never really understood the whole seperate clicks. How does seperating the plastic from the body actually help the click feeling? I'm getting a deathadder tommorow to replace my G402 because of the thumb button annoyance.


It's better in theory because you don't have the tension from the shell influencing click resistance. It's of course a tiny amount of force on not separated buttons, but technically separated clicks are better. Similar to the debate of 2ms smoothing. For most people it won't matter at all ever.


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It's better in theory because you don't have the tension from the shell influencing click resistance. It's of course a tiny amount of force on not separated buttons, but technically separated clicks are better. Similar to the debate of 2ms smoothing. For most people it won't matter at all ever.


I see
Thanks!


----------



## qsxcv

actually it's never "separated". it's just connected via two thin strips of plastic.
imo the difference is much much more perceptible than 4ms smoothing (= ~2ms delay).


----------



## Snakesoul

Hi SmashTV, thanks for your help, we'll guess didn't saw that cpi steps... O can't say G400 is my dream mouse, but I got used to it, especially that terrible lip.
You mentioned claw grip... Isn't this mouse for palm grip? Because i use 100% palm grip... I bought from impulse, because all the shops I went to don't have them so you can test...
Don't get it why brands don't ship some dummies for people to test.. But that's another story...


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snakesoul*
> 
> Hi SmashTV, thanks for your help, we'll guess didn't saw that cpi steps... O can't say G400 is my dream mouse, but I got used to it, especially that terrible lip.
> You mentioned claw grip... Isn't this mouse for palm grip? Because i use 100% palm grip... I bought from impulse, because all the shops I went to don't have them so you can test...
> Don't get it why brands don't ship some dummies for people to test.. But that's another story...


I feel like its more of a palm/claw hybird
You can still palm the G402
I'm doing it right now while playing battlefront :^)


----------



## Snakesoul

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> I feel like its more of a palm/claw hybird
> You can still palm the G402
> I'm doing it right now while playing battlefront :^)


Thanks for the help AuraDesruu, can't wait to get it so i can try it...
I'll leave my opinion when i get it


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snakesoul*
> 
> Hi SmashTV, thanks for your help, we'll guess didn't saw that cpi steps... O can't say G400 is my dream mouse, but I got used to it, especially that terrible lip.
> You mentioned claw grip... Isn't this mouse for palm grip? Because i use 100% palm grip... I bought from impulse, because all the shops I went to don't have them so you can test...
> Don't get it why brands don't ship some dummies for people to test.. But that's another story...


The shape was modified a bit to accommodate for other grips as opposed to being full on palm. Personally I use the mouse same way I'd use my MX518 (full palm). End result is a little less in terms of full palm ergonomics but you'll have a more commanding grip if that makes any sense.

Better to just try it and see.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> I've never really understood the whole seperate clicks. How does seperating the plastic from the body actually help the click feeling? I'm getting a deathadder tommorow to replace my G402 because of the thumb button annoyance.


Doesn't interfere with the rest of the shell. What didn't you like about the thumb buttons? I loved the design taken from the G602.

Unless you mean the sniper button, but I just slapped it to another frequently used key so it's of no issue personally.


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snakesoul*
> 
> Thanks for the help AuraDesruu, can't wait to get it so i can try it...
> I'll leave my opinion when i get it


meh
If you liked or got used to the G400s shape. I guess you'll like it
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> The shape was modified a bit to accommodate for other grips as opposed to being full on palm. Personally I use the mouse same way I'd use my MX518 (full palm). End result is a little less in terms of full palm ergonomics but you'll have a more commanding grip if that makes any sense.
> 
> Better to just try it and see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't interfere with the rest of the shell. What didn't you like about the thumb buttons? I loved the design taken from the G602.
> 
> Unless you mean the sniper button, but I just slapped it to another frequently used key so it's of no issue personally.


Sniper button
Even though I unbinded it
It just annoys me that its there
I'm that kinda of person who gets extremely irritated if one thing isnt right on something.


----------



## Snakesoul

I haven't received it yet, and I'm at work right now, so I'll just test it later when I get home...
From what I've seen in videos and reviews sniper button could be a issue for me... I'm like AuraDesruu, if something is not right i get frustrated or annoyed...
But can't comment yet, not until I get it...


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> actually it's never "separated". it's just connected via two thin strips of plastic.
> imo the difference is much much more perceptible than 4ms smoothing (= ~2ms delay).


I guess the solution used on the G402 is thinner plastic, I meant that as a general benefit for separate buttons with a dedicated rotational joint (correct word?) vs bending the shell to actuate buttons.
And for mice like Deathadders the click feel is still soft and little in spite of them not having separated buttons. So it can be a


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Seperated buttons are more spammable.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> meh
> If you liked or got used to the G400s shape. I guess you'll like it
> Sniper button
> Even though I unbinded it
> It just annoys me that its there
> I'm that kinda of person who gets extremely irritated if one thing isnt right on something.


Same here. It took me 3-4 months of constant playing to readjust my thumb. It is way too restrictive in terms of shape. I've taken the sniper button away but a straight side would've been a lot better.
We'll see what comes in the future from Logi. There have been rumors... Let's just leave it at that.


----------



## ncck

This looks like an awful shape, first off why ever put a ridge on the right side? Why not just have it flat so people can rest their index finger and then make sure there's enough space backwards from your index finger for your pinky to rest.. maybe even enough so the pinky won't hit the mouse pad so you don't have to bend your pinky so hard

Logitech seems to have the sensor, mouse clicks, and driver functionality but they seem to be poor in shape design, mousefeet, scroll wheel, and lastly cable.. If they can improve on those things I'm sure they'd be the top seller since they apparently have the best sensor and most responsive clicks?


----------



## Sencha

Think Logitech already are the top seller aren't they?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Think Logitech already are the top seller aren't they?


Depends on where you look.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> This looks like an awful shape, first off why ever put a ridge on the right side? Why not just have it flat so people can rest their index finger and then make sure there's enough space backwards from your index finger for your pinky to rest.. maybe even enough so the pinky won't hit the mouse pad so you don't have to bend your pinky so hard
> 
> Logitech seems to have the sensor, mouse clicks, and driver functionality but they seem to be poor in shape design, mousefeet, scroll wheel, and lastly cable.. If they can improve on those things I'm sure they'd be the top seller since they apparently have the best sensor and most responsive clicks?


Ridge is for both palm and claw use. Lips out for palm curves a bit in for claw. Works OK.

And as always, shape comfort is subjective...


----------



## Snakesoul

I got this mouse and i had the chance to test it and here are my toughts







I was looking to replace my g400, but i haven't found yet a proper replacement.
Let's talk about the design itself..
So coming from a Logitech g400, the weight felt the same, as it was well distributed (at least for me and my type of grip - palm grip), i prefer the touch and feel of those rubberized sides better than G400, and about this think it's an improvement.
After complaining a lot about the right lip of G400, this mouse finally got rid of that, but for some reason, i got used to it.
When i think of a successor of MX518\G400\400s, i always think of that right lip, so you can rest your ring finger.. G402, as we all know, lost it and besides not having that lip, i can't say isn't comfortable but also i can't say i feel like home..
The mouse fits well in my medium sized hand (17,5cm +\-) and i have no trouble picking it up.
One thing that annoyed me a lot, it was the sniper button, not because my thumb would constantly pressed it, but it was there and i could reach it with the tip of my thumb and that annoyed me, also placebo effect took place and i was with "don't press the button idea in my head"...
The main switches are well made and very easy to press, side buttons were also very easy to reach and felt crisp, so no issue about that.
Cpi buttons are very easy to press, but the placement for me isn't the best, i prefer the old design on top of the mouse, where there are no risks to press them by mistake.
Scroll wheel, well one of the most things i like about g400 it's the scroll wheel, very different from the other mice (like rival, DA, savu, or kpo), it showed us, gamers, we can have a not so large scroll wheel\narrow scroll with a feel of rubber, and i like it







G402 scroll is a piece of cheap plastic that feel loose inside the mouse, it's easy to press, but i didn't liked how it felt.
The cable is thicker than G400, and it seems to be more solid than G400.
Skates are well built and seemed to glide very well, so no issue there.

Conclusion: After all, i don't think G402 is an upgrade from G400 (maybe from a sensor\switch POV), but from a normal\casual gamer pov like me and a little picky about design\comfort, it felt way cheaper and it's way more expensive than G400.


----------



## asp93

my g402 started double clicking the right button in less than 6 months


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asp93*
> 
> my g402 started double clicking the right button in less than 6 months


Time to contact Logitech and get it exchanged


----------



## asp93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ignsvn*
> 
> Time to contact Logitech and get it exchanged


yes, i will do it, i'm pretty unlucky, 5th time needing logitech rma







(g400 2 times, g100s 2 times and now g402 )


----------



## tmgz

Just got the G402. I love the shape, but I really hate the clicks, they feel super soft and mushy, not tactile at all. I'm really dissapointed







this is a deal breaker


----------



## trhead

Soft and mushy compared to what? Heh I hate almost everything else except the clicks. Some of the best ever buttons on a mouse imo.


----------



## Meevz0r

Hey,

I've got couple of questions regarding G402, and how it compares to G502 and G303.

Does G402 scrollwheel also rattles like G502 does while moving the mouse?

How does button click latency of G402 compares to G502 or G303?

How is the sensor like comapred to G502/G303 is the difference noticeable?


----------



## bleets

Ok so...I picked up a G402 today since I havent been able to find one on display anywhere to try...
Damn it's twitchy compared to my zowie FK1...like really twitchy...i think that's due to the feet, it definitely feels slippier
but
the left and right buttons are really inconsistent.
the right button is nice and sharp, definite clicks
the left is light/soft/mushy and just not nice to use...
is that normal for this mouse or have i got a bit of a bad sample?

also the way they box the mouse with the stiff cable is...it kind of goes off at angles and wont straighten up, gets snagged.
i definitely prefer the soft zowie cable
also when lifting off and placing the mouse down it feels very hollow and vibratey inside...it's just weird


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Meevz0r*
> 
> Hey,
> 
> I've got couple of questions regarding G402, and how it compares to G502 and G303.
> 
> Does G402 scrollwheel also rattles like G502 does while moving the mouse?
> 
> How does button click latency of G402 compares to G502 or G303?
> 
> How is the sensor like comapred to G502/G303 is the difference noticeable?


G402 does not rattle like the G502.
Does button latency really matter with logitech mice? Logitech is practically the gods of having the lowest latency on the market. (.4 ms)
The sensor is considered flawless and you won't have any inconsistency with it. Though the 3366 does have surface calibration compared to that of the AM010. I feel that both feel really raw and responsive imo. I've used the G303's 3366 and the G402 AM010 for the same time (3 months).

I prefer the G402 just because of the shape and weight of the mouse compared to that of the G303/G502.
G402 is really nice to palm and much lighter than that of the G502.
I know you're not suppose to palm the G303 and there ergonomics are completley different. However, I found clawing the FK1 easier than the G303. I didn't want to sacrfice my comfort over sensor performance.

Edit: The LOD might be high for some
Steelseries Qck Heavy = 1.8 mm LOD


----------



## tmgz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bleets*
> 
> Ok so...I picked up a G402 today since I havent been able to find one on display anywhere to try...
> Damn it's twitchy compared to my zowie FK1...like really twitchy...i think that's due to the feet, it definitely feels slippier
> but
> the left and right buttons are really inconsistent.
> the right button is nice and sharp, definite clicks
> the left is light/soft/mushy and just not nice to use...
> is that normal for this mouse or have i got a bit of a bad sample?
> 
> also the way they box the mouse with the stiff cable is...it kind of goes off at angles and wont straighten up, gets snagged.
> i definitely prefer the soft zowie cable
> also when lifting off and placing the mouse down it feels very hollow and vibratey inside...it's just weird


My left button feels exactly the same as you describe it. I think it's the mouse. :/


----------



## ignsvn

My right mouse button feels sliiiiightly different with the left one, but only when I try hard to feel it. I'm unable to tell the difference during normal usage.


----------



## rpalmer92

Got one of these yesterday. I'll be honest, I liked using it and I was just as good after 2 games as I have been using the G303 for months, but now I need to decide whether I want to stick with it.

Pros:

Cheaper (costs half the price and can get it locally so minus postage too)
Can't notice a difference in tracking
Fits hand way better
Not even that heavy (weight very well distributed)

Cons:

Doesn't have those awesome G303 clicks

Ahhhhhhhhhhh the decisions!


----------



## SmashTV

Personally clicks aren't weird or spongy. Feels good though a slight audible difference between them. Most if not all my mice do that I think it's just the way it goes.


----------



## rpalmer92

They definitely aren't spongy or anything. The G303 just has that mechanical feel to it and I love it. I am gonna return the G402 and stick it out with my G303. I just love the thing too much to move on from it


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> Got one of these yesterday. I'll be honest, I liked using it and I was just as good after 2 games as I have been using the G303 for months, but now I need to decide whether I want to stick with it.
> 
> Pros:
> 
> Cheaper (costs half the price and can get it locally so minus postage too)
> Can't notice a difference in tracking
> Fits hand way better
> Not even that heavy (weight very well distributed)
> 
> Cons:
> 
> Doesn't have those awesome G303 clicks
> 
> Ahhhhhhhhhhh the decisions!


If you dont play games that require you to move your hand at a fast rate then stick with the G402. Your hand will love you for it.


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> If you dont play games that require you to move your hand at a fast rate then stick with the G402. Your hand will love you for it.


I pug and entry frag a lot in CSGO. I move a lot, and fast, haha.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> If you dont play games that require you to move your hand at a fast rate then stick with the G402. Your hand will love you for it.
> 
> 
> 
> I pug and entry frag a lot in CSGO. I move a lot, and fast, haha.
Click to expand...

I think you're confusing m/s with adjustments per second.


----------



## rpalmer92

What? No I'm not man haha I'm just saying I move my hand and the mouse a lot and very quickly when checking corners and clearing angles. I feel a tad lighter weight and lower LOD can definitely help with that. I could live with the G303 shape and prefer it a bit over the G402 and can't be bothered adjusting for no real benefit so might as well get my $40 back.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> What? No I'm not man haha I'm just saying I move my hand and the mouse a lot and very quickly when checking corners and clearing angles. I feel a tad lighter weight and lower LOD can definitely help with that. I could live with the G303 shape and prefer it a bit over the G402 and can't be bothered adjusting for no real benefit so might as well get my $40 back.


Hmmm fair enough.


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> Got one of these yesterday. I'll be honest, I liked using it and I was just as good after 2 games as I have been using the G303 for months, but now I need to decide whether I want to stick with it.
> 
> Pros:
> 
> Cheaper (costs half the price and can get it locally so minus postage too)
> Can't notice a difference in tracking
> Fits hand way better
> Not even that heavy (weight very well distributed)
> 
> Cons:
> 
> Doesn't have those awesome G303 clicks
> 
> Ahhhhhhhhhhh the decisions!


I'm all for ergonomics, so would suggest you to get G402


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

If the G303 fits him then he should go for it tho I advise caution when it comes to spaceship mice...


----------



## DrSebWilkes

My friend just got this mouse, so what's the native CPI? Is it 800 or 400?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DrSebWilkes*
> 
> My friend just got this mouse, so what's the native CPI? Is it 800 or 400?


9000

it supports native increments of 80


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> 9000
> 
> it supports native increments of 80


9000???! I know you're lying. Okay, so what's better for him; 400 or 800 CPI?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Tell him to just buy the mouse and figure it out himself lol


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Tell him to just buy the mouse and figure it out himself lol


But in all your infinite wisdom, you're telling me you haven't figured out which is better, 400 or 800 CPI?


----------



## bleets

there is no better!
it's personal pref


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bleets*
> 
> there is no better!
> it's personal pref


Well since according to the OP, 400 CPI is actually 400 while 800 is not, I'll tell him to use 400 DPI.

EDIT: Hmmm well the internet says 1000 CPI for the AM010 ... really?


----------



## qsxcv

no dpi step is completely accurate. the op's measurements aren't perfect. but given how the sensor works, the 800dpi setting is exactly twice as sensitive as 400dpi.

the g100s am010 srom has native steps of 250-500-750-1000-1250-etc...

but g402 and g302 sroms have native steps of 80-160-240-320-400-etc... so there's nothing wrong at all with either 400 or 800 on g402


----------



## DrSebWilkes

Thanks for all the help guys.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DrSebWilkes*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Tell him to just buy the mouse and figure it out himself lol
> 
> 
> 
> But in all your infinite wisdom, you're telling me you haven't figured out which is better, 400 or 800 CPI?
Click to expand...

They're both native. They should be the same


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

How much weight do you guys think I could strip from this mouse? I dont care for extra buttons or side buttons. Just need LMB, RMB, and scroll wheel


----------



## Melan

With dremel? A lot. Without? Not so much.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

How about twisting pieces off with needle nose pliers? I did that with my G303


----------



## Melan

Not advised.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> How much weight do you guys think I could strip from this mouse? I dont care for extra buttons or side buttons. Just need LMB, RMB, and scroll wheel


Actually you can take off a crapload. I've done it to mine and have not sacrificed functionality. You can take off the cpi switchers, a lot of unnecessary screws, led cover, side button rack, even the sidebuttons if you don't need them.

You can also remove the glossy frame or part of it.

Mine weighs around 93-94 g with the sidebuttons and part of the glossy frame. Without everything it would be around 87-90 g. It feels excellent when made lighter.

Edit: sniper button as well. Unfortunately I don't feel like I can get a good grip on the g402, due to the combination of left and right side. I donno, something feels wrong. Tried over and over for 1,5 years, but not gonna work I guess.


----------



## ronnin426850

I just ordered this mouse for ~40$, plan is to use it for CS:GO and SC2. Any advices?
Does it look ugly when you strip weight off of it?


----------



## Melan

Nah. One thing tho, if you remove sniper button and have CPI step lights on, you might get annoyed with leds blinding you.


----------



## ronnin426850

This mouse is the best thing my hand has touched. And I am a married man!


----------



## Maximillion

"What's that weird spaceship thing on your desk with the glowing blue light?"

"...That's my wife."


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> "What's that weird spaceship thing on your desk with the glowing blue light?"
> 
> "...That's my wife."


Want to see pictures of your glowing blue wife, as soon as possible







.


----------



## Poodle

I tested G402 yesterday at local store and it was quite nice. Actually it felt excellent for my grip. So why is this mouse totally unpopular at cs go gaming scene?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> I tested G402 yesterday at local store and it was quite nice. Actually it felt excellent for my grip. So why is this mouse totally unpopular at cs go gaming scene?


I am currently using it for CS:GO and it has vastly improved my performance in the game.


----------



## Melan

Anyone had an issue with G402 randomly malfunctioning? It happens very rarely during fast swipes.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Anyone had an issue with G402 randomly malfunctioning? It happens very rarely during fast swipes.


Not yet, but I don't do many fast swipes, and my fast swipes are not that fast anyway. Perhaps it has to do with switching to and from the Fusion engine. Try disabling it and see if that solves the issue. Also, there is a firmware update that solves some issues with Fusion, maybe that would be it.


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Anyone had an issue with G402 randomly malfunctioning? It happens very rarely during fast swipes.


with fusion engine?


----------



## Melan

Yeah. Fusion engine can't be disabled. It's on permanently.


----------



## coolwert

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> I tested G402 yesterday at local store and it was quite nice. Actually it felt excellent for my grip. So why is this mouse totally unpopular at cs go gaming scene?


logitech itself is very unpopular among the cs pro scene
unless teams are sponsored by them there a very few pros who use logitech willingly (one of them being get right but i think even he switched back to the xai)
I guess its because the shape (g303) and the weight (g502) turn people off, for the g402 i heard the lift-off distance is high and it is on the heavier side as well + the inferior sensor but the sensor aspect has a marginal impact as pros prefer shape+weight over sensor anyways


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Yeah. Fusion engine can't be disabled. It's on permanently.


Look here:


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coolwert*
> 
> logitech itself is very unpopular among the cs pro scene
> unless teams are sponsored by them there a very few pros who use logitech willingly (one of them being get right but i think even he switched back to the xai)
> I guess its because the shape (g303) and the weight (g502) turn people off, for the g402 i heard the lift-off distance is high and it is on the heavier side as well + the inferior sensor but the sensor aspect has a marginal impact as pros prefer shape+weight over sensor anyways


G402 can be stripped to below 80 grams, but the lift-off distance is indeed high.


----------



## ronnin426850

double post


----------



## Melan

You can't disable fusion engine without having LGS run in background measuring your speed. As soon as you close that window, fusion engine will turn it self back on.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> You can't disable fusion engine without having LGS run in background measuring your speed. As soon as you close that window, fusion engine will turn it self back on.


Are you sure? How can this be established for certain? Maybe a registry tweak can disable it permanently? I'll dig around


----------



## Dotachin

Got one. Best $30 (Amazon gold box deal) device ever.


----------



## Melan

Yes I'm sure, because AM010 won't magically track at 5m/s without gyro kicking in.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Yes I'm sure, because AM010 won't magically track at 5m/s without gyro kicking in.


I think it will track, but with much reduced accuracy, which how do you measure at 5 m/s? I may be wrong.


----------



## Melan

It won't track because AM010 has 2.5m/s speed limit, which is the reason for gyro in G402. Without fusion engine you'll be shooting your feet the second you swipe too hard.

As for measuring, I use mouse tester.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> It won't track because AM010 has 2.5m/s speed limit, which is the reason for gyro in G402. Without fusion engine you'll be shooting your feet the second you swipe too hard.
> 
> As for measuring, I use mouse tester.


Fair enough


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> It won't track because AM010 has 2.5m/s speed limit, which is the reason for gyro in G402. Without fusion engine you'll be shooting your feet the second you swipe too hard.
> 
> As for measuring, I use mouse tester.


I think qxsvc found that g402 (with fusion off) doesn't snap to the floor due to changed register values
http://www.overclock.net/t/1586813/kone-pure-military-cpi-bug-pmw3310-srom-version-0x0e-confirmed-buggy/10#post_24773690
he even applied it to his g100s teensy mod
http://www.overclock.net/t/1588408/teensy-mod-and-firmware-for-g100s


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Yes I'm sure, because AM010 won't magically track at 5m/s without gyro kicking in.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it will track, but with much reduced accuracy, which how do you measure at 5 m/s? I may be wrong.
Click to expand...

Implying ppl can aim properly at 5m/s


----------



## qsxcv

sometimes you don't need to. i don't play quake but sometimes i see quake players flick quickly to the floor for a rocket jump. and for this it's not too important to aim precisely


----------



## bruzanHD

5m/s is pushing what is necessary, IMO, 4m/s is plenty. I never pass this while playin but I could imagine people with like 65cm/360+ doing it.


----------



## PurpleChef

So whats your thoughts on Fusion Engine, do you use it or not? why?

also interested in stripping down the mouse to make it lighter. have you done so? plz post pictures and give some usefull info how i can make it lighter (its to heavy imo)
I don't like the material were the tumb is, get no good grip on it...

My steelseries Rival feels better cus its lighter and i get a better grip on it, but the rubber material thingy is close to gone.


----------



## Melan

You don't have an option of not using it.

You can remove about 3 buttons and a dozen of useless screws from G402. With dremel you can also remove a ton of pointless plastic.


----------



## PurpleChef

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> You don't have an option of not using it.
> 
> You can remove about 3 buttons and a dozen of useless screws from G402. With dremel you can also remove a ton of pointless plastic.


Ok have you done it yourself? need some info before doing this







demel, sounds risky haha


----------



## Melan

Not the dremel part. I did strip away buttons and screws though. Be careful then removing DPI buttons because they might get stuck and forcing them out will break rather thin plastic. You'll have to remove top shell for this including M1 button piece.


----------



## qsxcv

?? if you turn off fusion in lgs, the setting persists.

for actual gameplay, i'm not sure why one would want to turn it off though


----------



## Melan

It didn't for me with latest version of LGS and firmware for 402.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PurpleChef*
> 
> Ok have you done it yourself? need some info before doing this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> demel, sounds risky haha


You can take out the side button bracket along with the sniper button. Then, you can take out the cpi button bracket as well, along with the cpi buttons. You'll have to unscrew and then just pull it out. You can also remove the led funnel and cap.

There are a lot of screws which can also be taken out. You don't have to dremel or break anything. You can remove the glossy frame which weighs a lot. You can also break it into two pieces if you want to keep the wrist part to give a more smooth feeling. You can also completely remove it.


----------



## Melan

Dremel is needed to cut off everything you can't screw out, like all that generous amount of plastic logitech used in all new mice. That and buttload of screws for some reason. There are like 6-8 screws holding top shell alone for some reason.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Dremel is needed to cut off everything you can't screw out, like all that generous amount of plastic logitech used in all new mice. That and buttload of screws for some reason. There are like 6-8 screws holding top shell alone for some reason.


You can get the mouse to like 88 g without dremeling. Possibly even not voiding the warranty, depends on your skillz I guess.


----------



## PurpleChef

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> You can get the mouse to like 88 g without dremeling. Possibly even not voiding the warranty, depends on your skillz I guess.


do i have to remove the mouseskatez/pads? can i get them back? any pictures?


----------



## Melan

You do. All mouse feet have screws under them. Top has 2, each side has 1 and bottom has 1. It's better that you buy new feet afterwards though, unless you removed old ones VERY carefully.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PurpleChef*
> 
> do i have to remove the mouseskatez/pads? can i get them back? any pictures?


If you have something like a really thin plastic mousepad or a credit card, you can remove them and re-apply them. When you take the feet off, make sure you scrape them from the very bottom, since there is some middle layer between, which you don't want to leave there, otherwise you can't re-apply them.

After you have taken them off, put them onto something so that the glue doesn't dry.


----------



## qsxcv

here's what i did:

http://support.logitech.com/en_us/parts
$3, not including shipping

get a knife and cut out holes for the screws.

bottom feet can be pierced with a screwdriver.
and of course the 2 feet near the lens do not need to be removed


----------



## r31ncarnat3d

Just bought this mouse from another OCN user to replace my double-clicking G500. Looking forward to trying it out









Also, reading through this thread makes me wonder: Am I weird for liking heavy mice? My G500 has all the heavy weights in.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r31ncarnat3d*
> 
> Just bought this mouse from another OCN user to replace my double-clicking G500. Looking forward to trying it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, reading through this thread makes me wonder: Am I weird for liking heavy mice? My G500 has all the heavy weights in.


No, a colleague of mine likes very heavy mice. Like with everything else, it's personal preference.


----------



## kiulin

I bought the mousepad DEX by steelseries, but my G402 gonna crazy with this mousepad, when I make speed moviments on CS:GO my crosshair flip or freeze, it's just terrible. Someone with similar problems with DEX mousepad?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kiulin*
> 
> I bought the mousepad DEX by steelseries, but my G402 gonna crazy with this mousepad, when I make speed moviments on CS:GO my crosshair flip or freeze, it's just terrible. Someone with similar problems with DEX mousepad?


Silicone mousepads don't work well with IR LED sensors.


----------



## qsxcv

???
all that matters is the surface, not the base material


----------



## Melan

Original feet are terrible on G402. MX-1 hyperglides fit perfectly since Logitech didn't derp the bottom part like they did with G303. Glide got a lot better.


----------



## trism

I have to disagree. G303 stock feet seem to have less friction than MS3.0 Hyperglides. My G303 glides better with stock feet on a QCK+. I am very disappointed in Hotline games competition skates too.

Pretty sure G402 uses the same material, don't know about the glide though.


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *kiulin*
> 
> I bought the mousepad DEX by steelseries, but my G402 gonna crazy with this mousepad, when I make speed moviments on CS:GO my crosshair flip or freeze, it's just terrible. Someone with similar problems with DEX mousepad?
> 
> 
> 
> Silicone mousepads don't work well with IR LED sensors.
Click to expand...

G303 on hiro is lovely

Till it goes off the woefully short 13 inch edge -_-


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Or when the mousepad slips


----------



## leapstep

Just replaced the original cable with a razer lachesis cable. It feels so much lighter and agile.

I've always liked the shape and sensor feeling, but the original cable just annoyed me whenever i played cs go.

The difference is night and day imo, the g402 is now my daily driver.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> ???
> all that matters is the surface, not the base material


DeX is burnt silicone surface


----------



## Melan

DeX has cloth surface. Base is silicone.


----------



## Sho Minamimoto

I got this mouse from warranty. I wouldn't use it.

Repaired my old mice instead.


----------



## MrBonk

I don't blame you. After time with this mouse, I find it really uncomfortable to use. And actually actively dislike it. But it's better than nothing.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> DeX has cloth surface. Base is silicone.


My mistake


----------



## PurpleChef

bought a razer deathadder chrome. compared to the g402 its like night and day.
i don't recomend anyone to buy 402. bad shape/material. deathadder all day


----------



## ronnin426850

In contrast, after some time using the G402, it is the best mouse I can imagine


----------



## DanCousins

Just got my G402 today. Not sure how I feel about it.

The clicks, I love them. They're a lot lighter than what I'm used to. Accidentally knifed a few team mates earlier in CS. They weren't impressed, haha. The sensor, love it. Coming from a Sensei it's insane. It's so accurate. When I flick it's just so natural. I love it.

The problem is the size. I think it may be a tad too small. My hand feels a little cramped while playing. The LOD could also be lower.

Anyway, do you get used to a mouse shape after a while? I mean, it's not awful. I actually like the shape. It could just do with being a little bigger.

If I end up returning it, I'll probably pick up an FK1, but I really wanted to try and stay with something logitech as they're killing the input delay game right now.

G502 is too heavy. G303, eh, I guess I could try it. Looks uncomfortable though.


----------



## SmashTV

The feel of small probably comes from the edits they made to accommodate claw grips.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DanCousins*
> 
> Just got my G402 today. Not sure how I feel about it.
> 
> The clicks, I love them. They're a lot lighter than what I'm used to. Accidentally knifed a few team mates earlier in CS. They weren't impressed, haha. The sensor, love it. Coming from a Sensei it's insane. It's so accurate. When I flick it's just so natural. I love it.
> 
> The problem is the size. I think it may be a tad too small. My hand feels a little cramped while playing. The LOD could also be lower.
> 
> Anyway, do you get used to a mouse shape after a while? I mean, it's not awful. I actually like the shape. It could just do with being a little bigger.
> 
> If I end up returning it, I'll probably pick up an FK1, but I really wanted to try and stay with something logitech as they're killing the input delay game right now.
> 
> G502 is too heavy. G303, eh, I guess I could try it. Looks uncomfortable though.


You can probably get used to it. I never did though..


----------



## DanCousins

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> You can probably get used to it. I never did though..


I'm going to give it a bit more time because I love it in every other way.

Maybe switch my grip up a bit.

Why can't Logitech make a Sensei/MWO shaped mouse with a 3366 and their legendary button setup?


----------



## SmashTV

G900 is kind of close to that. Probably be available in May.


----------



## MasterOfMC

If I put that Fusion engine off in software and close and exit. Will hat Fusion engine stay off or not?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterOfMC*
> 
> If I put that Fusion engine off in software and close and exit. Will hat Fusion engine stay off or not?


You can't turn it off.


----------



## MasterOfMC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> You can't turn it off.


Good to know.

In this thread someone said that in software you can turn it off but maybe that was wrong information.


----------



## qsxcv

uhhh
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i guess they changed it?
> because i can turn it off and close lgs and it still malfunctions


but actually i'm not sure... it's not actually off because when i hooked up the g402 mcu to a g100s sensor, the g402 mcu would detect a mismatch in the accel/gyro and the sensor and malfunction early: see op of http://www.overclock.net/t/1587477/pmw3320-am010-hacking/0_100


----------



## popups

Looks similar.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Looks similar.


Mmm, yes?


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Looks similar.


I currently use Tesoro Excalibur mechanical keyboard (brown kaihl). Sturdy enough. Not bad for the price IMO.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Looks similar.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


No shame. No shame I tell ya.


----------



## FieryCoD

Thinking about grabbing this mice on the low, is it worth it for approximately $40 CAD?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FieryCoD*
> 
> Thinking about grabbing this mice on the low, is it worth it for approximately $40 CAD?


I think yes.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850*
> 
> I think yes.


If you can get along with the shape, it's a beast mouse. I could never get used to the thumbrest. Owning it 1,5 years and trying it again and again, but nope. Not happening. It's so weird that the thumbside is slanted / and the right side is like this / so overall the profile is slightly like the Tower of Pisa. Makes no sense tbh.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> If you can get along with the shape, it's a beast mouse. I could never get used to the thumbrest. Owning it 1,5 years and trying it again and again, but nope. Not happening. It's so weird that the thumbside is slanted / and the right side is like this / so overall the profile is slightly like the Tower of Pisa. Makes no sense tbh.


Maybe, I had my doubts at first, but it fits my hand so good, I have such great sense of control with it... It's a love it or hate it thing


----------



## SmashTV

I for one welcome the shape. The only complaint is that it isn't exactly the old shell.

Seriously it's my favorite mouse despite all the others I've been buying and selling off.


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850*
> 
> Maybe, I had my doubts at first, but it fits my hand so good, I have such great sense of control with it... It's a love it or hate it thing


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> I for one welcome the shape. The only complaint is that it isn't exactly the old shell.
> 
> Seriously it's my favorite mouse despite all the others I've been buying and selling off.


+1


----------



## cenasfu

So I'll be getting my G402 tomorrow in the mail. What I need to know is what software or firmware should I install? I don't care at all about customizing my mouse, I just need it to function at 800 dpi.. I don't want any weird software influencing the tracking on the mouse. Thanks for your help!


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cenasfu*
> 
> So I'll be getting my G402 tomorrow in the mail. What I need to know is what software or firmware should I install? I don't care at all about customizing my mouse, I just need it to function at 800 dpi.. I don't want any weird software influencing the tracking on the mouse. Thanks for your help!


LGS won't interfere with tracking.

The mouse probably is already at the latest firmware already.

800 cpi is standard out of the box I believe.


----------



## Melan

Just keep in mind that CPI steps on G402 are not what they are









https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/108WaiK7jSu-j5H-bCHoSO1uxscmhwc-AXrp8lFGRAKc/edit#gid=0


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Just keep in mind that CPI steps on G402 are not what they are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/108WaiK7jSu-j5H-bCHoSO1uxscmhwc-AXrp8lFGRAKc/edit#gid=0


This is pretty helpful. Are there any spreadsheets for other mice?


----------



## Bucake

woah, fat spreadsheet. did qsxcv make it?
i wonder how a spreadsheet like that for the G100s would look. probably (more) normal/accurate?


----------



## qsxcv

the g302 behaves identically

you don't have to worry about this for any other mice (afaik)

actual dpi is of course never perfect, but you usually don't need to worry about crap like 800 and 880 dpi in lgs being the same actual setting for the sensor


----------



## SmashTV

I'm personally interested in other spreadsheets to get a general guess of how far off CPIs are off advertised and whether over or under.

For example, escapes me at the moment where but I recall hearing the DA ran approx 50 counts or so faster than listed. Also Zowie mice tend to be under the listed CPI from what I remember as well.


----------



## jsx3

Generally it'll depend on implementation and tolerance range of said product, but the DPI can skew off even in mice of the same make and model if lets say a LED is slightly weaker than its brother unit made on the same day.


----------



## Melan

Well, my G303 has ~420 CPI on 400 CPI step.


----------



## qsxcv

well all of my g100s get within 1-2% of 1000dpi


----------



## Melan

840 on 800 step


----------



## qsxcv

with the exception of g402/g302, where the dpi labels in lgs are literally wrong, the actual dpi is exactly proportional to the dpi setting.
in your case the ratio is 1.05


----------



## Melan

I'll have to check again when my hotline feet arrive and I put default base back. Maybe my sandpaper shenanigans are affecting lod thus the CPI.


----------



## Melan

My MX500 turned out to be 402 CPI lol.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> My MX500 turned out to be 402 CPI lol.


I think Lolgitech is trying to tell you something.


----------



## Melan

Yes, they tell me "if you want your 400 cpi to be actual 400, use old mice". While extra 20 cpi on 400 isn't catastrophical, 40 on 800 and higher is a problem, especially when you don't know about it and wonder why the hell mouse responds differently despite correctly scaled sensitivity.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Yes, they tell me "if you want your 400 cpi to be actual 400, use old mice". While extra 20 cpi on 400 isn't catastropical, 40 on 800 and higher is a problem, especially when you don't know about it and wonder why the hell mouse responds differently despite correctly scaled sensitivity.


True, but there are so many variables that could cause this. That's why I measure my sens rather than rely on steps. Or I just change it accordingly by feel. It's pretty easy to do.


----------



## theo87

Sorry for a silly question, but I'm thinking about buying this mouse. Is there a chance that in near future there is going to be released new version of it? Considering how crazy manufacturers are with releasing new mice lately I don't wanna buy a mouse that is going to be relaunched 2 months later. i know some ocn folks are really goood at getting early informations. Is there anything pointing towards new 4xx series of the mouse?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inox*
> 
> Sorry for a silly question, but I'm thinking about buying this mouse. Is there a chance that in near future there is going to be released new version of it? Considering how crazy manufacturers are with releasing new mice lately I don't wanna buy a mouse that is going to be relaunched 2 months later. i know some ocn folks are really goood at getting early informations. Is there anything pointing towards new 4xx series of the mouse?


I believe that even if it gets a new version, it will be with "improved", read "different" or "worse" shape, and I seriously doubt they'll put a better sensor on, so chances are you won't lose if you get it now.


----------



## m4gg0t

I just picked up this mouse to try it out and ohh boy does it feel different when compared to my FK1. The shape and feel of the sensor takes a lot of getting used to, but it does feel a little smoother then the FK1. Also the thumb button on my copy affects the left click. If i click the thumb button while holding the left click down the thumb buttons get much stiffer to click and vice versa, quite annoying really as i sometimes click both in games. I however don't think i get can used to this mouse because of its weird fancy shape.

Update: sent the mouse back, as it just wasn't for me. Keept pressing the sniper button and the shape couldn't get used to it.


----------



## Poodle

I just made 3 in a row personal best scores at exact aim game with this mouse. Before I could only hit those scores with EC2-A. Holy ****... This mouse is actually very good.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> I just made 3 in a row personal best scores at exact aim game with this mouse. Before I could only hit those scores with EC2-A. Holy ****... This mouse is actually very good.


Welcome to the church of the G402


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> ... Holy ****... This mouse is actually very good.


Ssshhh don't tell the others. Let's keep this "unfair advantage" to ourself


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> I just made 3 in a row personal best scores at exact aim game with this mouse. Before I could only hit those scores with EC2-A. Holy ****... This mouse is actually very good.


It's like a GTI. Does everything very well but it's refinement is why nobody (else) suggests it.


----------



## tp4tissue

G402 is the g400 successor for sure..

But No one is sure whether that accelerometer actually works as intended

At low speeds it should be identical to g100s performance, so without issue.


----------



## Melan

Well, if G402 doesn't malfunction beyond 2.5m/s then accelerometer is working as intended. It is the only purpose of it.


----------



## RevanCorana

The end goal of hybrid sensor is probably not JUST to improve old sensors.. imagine what would happen if you mix an already excellent sensor like 3366 with an accelerometer


----------



## Melan

Nothing. It will be pointless.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tp4tissue*
> 
> G402 is the g400 successor for sure..
> 
> But No one is sure whether that accelerometer actually works as intended
> 
> At low speeds it should be identical to g100s performance, so without issue.


Pretty sure it's handling more than 2.8m/s so I'd say it's working.

As for accuracy well I don't notice anything as a preliminary measure. The Logitech arm though was showing the gyro stuff was accurate up to at least 12m/s - or something along those lines.


----------



## m4gg0t

The AM010 is a good sensor but the shape of this G402 killed it for me.


----------



## MaTpr0F

Anyone have information on a G402 EWR edition? What's the difference?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaTpr0F*
> 
> Anyone have information on a G402 EWR edition? What's the difference?


The only info I find on the net is from non-English sites. I suspect EWR is essentially the same mouse, with something minor changed in order to meet some international criteria or something. All the specs that I find are the same. Don't quote me though


----------



## synergy17

I got this mice for relatively low price damn i love the sensor


----------



## Toxsick

g402 + g240 on the way, hopefully tomorrow in!


----------



## SmashTV

So after more than a year with constant my feet are dwindling a bit. The ones around the sensor do not have the same kind of drag as the other feet do and it was seriously hampering the glide on my Allsop to the point where I even washed the damn thing thinking that was it.

Removed the sensor feet after feeling the middle ones were thicker than the outside and they were visually more scratched. Now the glide is good again. Checked out the feet and they definitely feel alot more dense and scratching the surface gives off a hard plastic like feel.

So if your glide is dragging check out the center feet around the sensor. I will buy some Hotlines soon and see if they're any better.


----------



## deepor

I had the same impression when using and looking at my G402. It's like the main feet of the mouse are teflon, while the feet around the sensor are normal plastic. All the other feet get a polished, smooth and shiny look when using the mouse for a bit, while the ones around the sensor stay like they are from the beginning, meaning rough and scratchy. This is different on the G303 I have where the feet around the sensor seem to be the same as the main feet of the mouse.


----------



## SmashTV

After a few days with new feet they do work well. Hotlines don't fit as well as I would have thought but otherwise I have no issues.

EDIT: This mouse for me on Raindrop XL is performing disgustingly beautiful for accuracy. LG has gone up a like 6%.


----------



## Alya

G402 didn't work with my hand, the weird lip on the side was really uncomfortable and either I moved my ring finger over it and my pinkie was the only thing gripping the mouse, with the weird plasticy feeling on the side my hand would slip all over, or I'd crush my ring and pinkie together, I do claw grip like most people recommend. FeelsBadMan.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> G402 didn't work with my hand, the weird lip on the side was really uncomfortable and either I moved my ring finger over it and my pinkie was the only thing gripping the mouse, with the weird plasticy feeling on the side my hand would slip all over, or I'd crush my ring and pinkie together, I do claw grip like most people recommend. FeelsBadMan.


What? 402 is not a claw mouse. Yes, you can do it, if you try really hard, but it is a palm / finger mouse IMO.


----------



## SmashTV

I think the mouse suits claw the best personally. I did have no issues palming though which is why I still use it.


----------



## Melan

I couldn't claw it properly like I do with 303, no matter how I tried. In the end it still felt out of place for ring finger and palm.


----------



## Melcar

I had the g402. Gave it to my kid brother when I got the g502. I find both of them to be better suited for a hybrid claw/palm, at least for me. I usually palm the g502, but my hand gets sore after a while and I have to switch to a claw grip. I have the same problem with the g402, but to a lesser extent. I prefer the g402 actually, but I just like the extra keys on the g502 and have gotten used to them. I have smallish hands, but I find both devices to be a bit too small for proper palm grip. Well, not small I guess, but there is something with the shape that just tires the hand in prolonged sessions.


----------



## popups

20% off the G402 with promo code "PAXWEST20"

Ends September 9th.


----------



## Ufasas

So i've got a broken g402 over ebay, not really big engineer in transplanting sensors and wiring stuff, lol, what do you think, should i replace cable too? it has some weird part in the end where connector is connecting to PCB. Which sensor, thinking now, tesoro ascalon 3988 optical or 3366 from very worn out g502


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> So i've got a broken g402 over ebay, not really big engineer in transplanting sensors and wiring stuff, lol, what do you think, should i replace cable too? it has some weird part in the end where connector is connecting to PCB. Which sensor, thinking now, tesoro ascalon 3988 optical or 3366 from very worn out g502


Great if you can replace the cable. Th3 original cable is very stiff. Also, better use the 3366


----------



## cnnd

This mouse or Rival 300?


----------



## ignsvn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cnnd*
> 
> This mouse or Rival 300?


They generally have good sensor. See which shape, cable, weight, switch clicks you like better.


----------



## cnnd

Is this mouse bigger than Microsoft 3.0? I googled the dimensions and it has slightly bigger dimensions but 3.0 looks bigger in pictures.


----------



## jaffa2843

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cnnd*
> 
> Is this mouse bigger than Microsoft 3.0? I googled the dimensions and it has slightly bigger dimensions but 3.0 looks bigger in pictures.


3.0 feels bigger in the hands.


----------



## espn

Can someone compare the feeling between MX518, G400s, G402, G502? A lot of us are looking for similar feeling of MX518/G400s


----------



## SmashTV

It's definitely similar. Though flatter, thinner, and feels longer.

Still the closest feeling new release next to the G502.


----------



## Melan

I'd take old mx500 shape over g402 any day though. G402 was too awkward to hold tbh.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> I'd take old mx500 shape over g402 any day though. G402 was too awkward to hold tbh.


Same here but the next best shape would be the G403 series, that's if you're still attracted to the mx500.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> I'd take old mx500 shape over g402 any day though. G402 was too awkward to hold tbh.


Same. The only tradeoff would be the button placement I find better on the G402.

Maybe if they do a G503 it can be in that similar shape ...


----------



## Shogoki

One year ago, i was in a tech store, they put expositions models of the G402 and the G303. I put my hand on the G402 and instantly tough the shape was horrible, maybe the hump in the back being strangely shaped. The G303 in other hand got me react like "Hey, this is way better than i expected !"


----------



## espn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Same here but the next best shape would be the G403 series, that's if you're still attracted to the mx500.


people say G403
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shogoki*
> 
> One year ago, i was in a tech store, they put expositions models of the G402 and the G303. I put my hand on the G402 and instantly tough the shape was horrible, maybe the hump in the back being strangely shaped. The G303 in other hand got me react like "Hey, this is way better than i expected !"


very different kind of shape.


----------



## espn

Does G402 have the same sensor as G400s?


----------



## tunelover

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espn*
> 
> Does G402 have the same sensor as G400s?


g400s has the Avago ADNS S3095

g402 has the am010 (found in g100s also) with a gyroscope that allows it to track as fast as 7 m/s I think. g100s would spin out past 2.8/2.9 m/s but the g402 fixes that with the gyroscope


----------



## espn

Any comment about this mice? If my g400s stop working then I may get this.


----------



## Melan

It's meh. G403 is less awkward to hold especially if you come from mx500/g400.


----------



## ignsvn

My only gripe is the front-right side lip of the mouse, which, IMO, protrudes a bit too far to the right. As a result, there's a big gap between my middle & ring finger, which gets tiring after a while.

(This is pretty much the same with DAs and most generic right-hand ergo mice shell design).

Other than that, it's all good.


----------



## espn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> It's meh. G403 is less awkward to hold especially if you come from mx500/g400.


g403 is much more expensive lol


----------



## espn

upgraded to g402, prettt good


----------



## B1ueBird

Does g402 save a fusion engine setting to on or off in onboard memory to use in another PC's without LGS install ?


----------



## SmashTV

Why would you have it off to begin with.


----------



## cdcd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Why would you have it off to begin with.


r0ach reasons


----------



## B1ueBird

I want to turn it on but I'm not sure does it always turn on without LGS install.


----------



## Melan

It's always on. You need LGS to have it off.


----------



## heckenjoni

how is the sensor is it a big downgrade from a 3360 i rly like the shape but idk about the sensor


----------



## cdcd

AM010 has no smoothing below 2000 CPI and the low malfunction speed is a non-issue due to the gyroscope. Aside from the higher LOD it shouldn't be too much of a downgrade.


----------



## fourthavenue

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *heckenjoni*
> 
> how is the sensor is it a big downgrade from a 3360 i rly like the shape but idk about the sensor


G402 has a much higher LOD (at least 2mm) than 3366 mice
G402 is heavier than G403
G402 uses a stiff rubber cord.

G402 has different sensor placement than G403, so your "feel" of aim is significantly different from G403. I don't think it's the sensor being inferior or something. Different sensor placement should be accounted for most of the difference that you can feel.


----------



## SmashTV

Sensor is fine. If you like the shape stick with it.


----------



## SILPH

Should I turn off fusion engion? I don't use very low sens so I can't reach max speed anyway.


----------



## cdcd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SILPH*
> 
> Should I turn off fusion engion? I don't use very low sens so I can't reach max speed anyway.


There are no drawbacks to leaving it enabled as long as you're on the latest firmware.


----------



## SILPH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kiulin*
> 
> I bought the mousepad DEX by steelseries, but my G402 gonna crazy with this mousepad, when I make speed moviments on CS:GO my crosshair flip or freeze, it's just terrible. Someone with similar problems with DEX mousepad?


I have the same problem


----------



## DarkRadeon7000

My G500s just died and I loved the shape of MX 518 and G500s. Is the experience of this close to these 2?


----------



## fourthavenue

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DarkRadeon7000*
> 
> My G500s just died and I loved the shape of MX 518 and G500s. Is the experience of this close to these 2?


Among logitech nowadays mice, G402 is the closest one in terms of shape and weight. But it seems G402 is getting discontinued too.


----------



## SILPH

I moved to G102 a few weeks ago, after the Steelseries Dex issue I wrote before on this page. At first it was different as I have always used bigger mouse for years like MX500-510-518-G400-G402, etc. But after I got used to it, I liked it more than G402 (I was never attached to G402 shell like classic MX518/G400 shell anyway) I also didn't change my palm grip style, it's still doable with small-medium hands.


----------



## Ufasas

anyone has comparison of g403 vs g402 in fps games like csgo, and g403 vs g400, would you notice at least a small improvement over previous mx5xx / g4xx mice? i've seen people still owning everybody with G400 in fps games, i've got g402 i like it, but my performance after 1-2 games goes down and down, got 502 but don't like shape, g402 is more comfortable, but would like 3366 in g402, now prices dropping from 49.99 to 24.50 for g403, a bargain, what you say?


----------



## SmashTV

I would take the G402 each and every time over a G403. Sensor performance doesn't bother me in that case even though I have both. The shape of the G402 is so much better for me.


----------



## canonrockfinal

-


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canonrockfinal*
> 
> guys, i discovered that the am010 sensor of the g402 doesnt come alive until at least 2800 dpi


You can stick with it if you like it, but whatever you're feeling is superior to other steps is more than likely placebo. You shouldn't spread the FUD if you don't have anything to back it up other than feelz.


----------



## canonrockfinal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> You can stick with it if you like it, but whatever you're feeling is superior to other steps is more than likely placebo. You shouldn't spread the FUD if you don't have anything to back it up other than feelz.


well most of the folks posting are posting based on feelz too,

and i feel at 2000 dpi in csgo stepped down to the 450 edpi i use ingame it is still a very miniscule sluggish start whenever the mouse cursor is moved from a complete rest to motion compared to 2800 dpi in windows then step down to 450 edpi ingame.

if this slight sluggishness is considered unaccelerated, flawless movement at 2000 dpi then i think it might be also why some players play fps with better results with minimal constant acceleration added to the final dpi

or if you with the technical knowhow, care to explain why is it i almost certainly perform better with 2800 dpi than 2000 dpi all the time? 2000 dpi i take much longer to adjust the the enemy's head for a headshot and doesnt feel like 100% accuracy per fix distance move by the mouse on repeated attempts anyway(example moving 6cm everytime on the mouse doesnt feel like its exactly the same amount everytime on screen, even below 2000dpi) and still requires micro adjustment to get onto the enemy but with 2800 everything is faster hence it all adds up to me aiming down the same spot on the enemy's head faster than he can eliminate me as i would have moved and aimed while on 2000dpi. that is how i can best explain why i FEEL its always working out better at 2800 despite against the theoretical technicality that i probably shouldnt be doing better above 2000 dpi consistently


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canonrockfinal*
> 
> crap


Again if you feel like you do alright with that, stick to it.

My issue is that you passed it off like the sensor is substantially better outright once you get to X cpi when it's just something personal you've discovered for yourself.


----------



## canonrockfinal

im doing more testing @ 2000 dpi

are there any smoothing or acceleration at 2000 dpi exact? just wondering..

if only i had more tech knowledge of what im tweaking with


----------



## SmashTV

Smoothing kicks in at 2080 I believe.


----------



## cdcd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Smoothing kicks in at 2080 I believe.


Merely two additional frames, nothing worth mentioning.


----------



## canonrockfinal

correct me if im wrong, read this somewhere

"mouse smoothing will only slow your mouse movements when moving slowly. Mouse acceleration will only increase mouse movements when moving quickly."

so for dpi above 2080 there is 2 frame smoothing aka slowing for slow mouse movements which probably affects only microadjusting the most, other times i be flicking onto my targets in fps games

and no acceleration if i move the mouse fast vs moving it normally

then comparing 2000 with 2800 dpi, isnt it going to be benefit only? picture a constant movement + microadjustment(big swipe + mini jolt) to aim down a target's head at 2000 dpi and then at 2800 dpi the same distance move per dpi increment as 2000 dpi + more accurate microadjustment benefit from 800 more dpi hence better capture of finer mouse movement translating into overall better performance at 2800dpi?

the microadjusting part after the normal movement to get onto the target will always be pretty fast since its a combat situation in fps hence it doesnt suffer the smoothing "slow" effect of 2 frames that only happens while moving the mouse slowly

did i just build a case for the utility of dpi above 2000 on the g402 remaining completely viable and as good as the flawless tracking at and below 2000 dpi?


----------



## Melan

You won't notice that 2 frames of smoothing.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canonrockfinal*
> 
> "mouse smoothing will only slow your mouse movements when moving slowly. Mouse acceleration will only increase mouse movements when moving quickly."


In extremely broad and basic terms, sure, this can be applied as one situation. Accel goes both ways and there's levels to smoothing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canonrockfinal*
> 
> so for dpi above 2080 there is 2 frame smoothing aka slowing for slow mouse movements which probably affects only microadjusting the most, other times i be flicking onto my targets in fps games


It will affect your input, either slow or fast. To what level depends on how much smoothing there actually is.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canonrockfinal*
> 
> then comparing 2000 with 2800 dpi, isnt it going to be benefit only? picture a constant movement + microadjustment(big swipe + mini jolt) to aim down a target's head at 2000 dpi and then at 2800 dpi the same distance move per dpi increment as 2000 dpi + more accurate microadjustment benefit from 800 more dpi hence better capture of finer mouse movement translating into overall better performance at 2800dpi?


No?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canonrockfinal*
> 
> the microadjusting part after the normal movement to get onto the target will always be pretty fast since its a combat situation in fps hence it doesnt suffer the smoothing "slow" effect of 2 frames that only happens while moving the mouse slowly


If I'm understanding right (period and commas children), you're saying because motion is constant and fast it somehow out moves the smoothing?

That isn't the case.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canonrockfinal*
> 
> did i just build a case for the utility of dpi above 2000 on the g402 remaining completely viable and as good as the flawless tracking at and below 2000 dpi?


Probably not.

And as said the smoothing for the G402 is well under 1ms so I doubt you're feeling anything related to it.


----------



## canonrockfinal

edit: 2000 dpi is gd enough

all kinds of smoothing/acceleration sucks.


----------



## doza

i went from deathadder chroma to g402 because i just could not get use to it, went for g402 because people say it has no acceleration. Sadly it has, now im stuck with it as i can't do a refund.
is there any way i could at least lower acceleration it as i know logitech does not give u option to tun it off.


----------



## Melan

Acceleration? Wat?


----------



## softskiller

Acer Predator Cestus 315 looks identical (Pixart 3325):


----------



## SmashTV

Neat. Guessing DesignPartners sold the design off?


----------



## Ufasas

My g402 still going strong after several years, well but i prefer an even left side, not like Acer's web^ , also g402 cursor spins out once swiped too fast in quake game, lol


----------



## softskiller

Had to use a nail file to file off sharp exposed edges which were scratching on the mouse pad.
Still prefer the G402 over the G403 due to lower click latency and debounce rate and better sensor positioning.


----------



## obi.van.kenobi

Went on a shopping spree of used gaming mice (just to try out some new shapes for me), and of all mice this must be the most underrated mouse ever, IMHO. Well, g603 is also good with a light lithium battery (giving a shout out to badben25, who is awesome).

Most of the time I wished that Logitech made an exact copy of g1 mouse, this has almost the same grip, but in a different shell. And this fusion engine thingy actually works kinda nice. Would recommend it for all to try out (beware, middle click is known to go bye bye, nothing is perfect....).


----------

