# Finalmouse 2015



## Skylit

Looks very ODM paired with a lot of marketing buzz words.

I'm not exactly impressed from what I see.


----------



## optimisTGO

Interesting. Been looking into trying some new mice, already ordered a G100S and Krait to try. Almost wanna order one of these to try since it's fulfilled by Amazon, so worst comes to worst I could just return it. The shape looks great, wonder how it performs.


----------



## kicksome

Can anyone see a release date on the site anywhere?


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Can anyone see a release date on the site anywhere?


I didn't find that, but like I said, it's available and supposedly 'In stock' on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MX8QSLW

On the other hand, I can't seem to find much information about either of the 2 players it has statements from or also any talk of the mouse on any of the sites it has the logos from. Bit sketchy.

Curious though still, since it's fulfilled by Amazon, would I be 100% covered basically if I were to buy one due to stupid curiosity?


----------



## leakydog

it looks like made from very cheap plastic. there is also not polished edges and poor fitting


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Looks very ODM paired with a lot of marketing buzz words.
> 
> I'm not exactly impressed from what I see.


^this, the whole presentation makes it quite fishy as well.

Edit: Whats up with those Awards? Im pretty sure i havent seen it on Tom´s Hardware.


----------



## kicksome

Ah so you think it might be a sham?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Ah so you think it might be a sham?


Haha no, OP is just lurking around two months looking what gets often mentioned in a positive way, then calling up some OEM with the components he wants or knows off and then tries to make money off you. In a way OCN created a mouse but certainly not in a good way, and it is certainly not a freeride from here on. Just look at the buzzwords on the website, specifically tailored towards a certain forum or its members.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Haha no, OP is just lurking around two months looking what gets often mentioned in a positive way, then calling up some OEM with the components he wants or knows off and then tries to make money off you. In a way OCN created a mouse but certainly not in a good way, and it is certainly not a freeride from here on. Just look at the buzzwords on the website, specifically tailored towards a certain forum or its members.


Knowing the Adren OP spoke of, I checked out his past broadcast from today to see if he actually namedropped it or not, he did around 37:40. http://www.twitch.tv/adren_tv/v/3629958

Shows the packaging and the mouse and talks about it a bit, says the guy gave him 2 to try out for feedback.


----------



## Junki3e

Seems to be a Razer Imperator shape with a 3310 sensor :/


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> Seems to be a Razer Imperator shape with a 3310 sensor :/


Yeah. Almost exactly so.


----------



## lookitdisnub

I'll go ahead and order one since I can return it through amazon easily. Wish I knew what it weighed but whatever, it doesn't look overly huge


----------



## FoxWolf1

I dunno about this one. I'm definitely the type to buy new/unknown/perhaps somewhat sketchy products out of curiosity, even knowing that, more times than not, they won't turn out to be very good. But I don't feel particularly motivated to investigate in this case. Will look forward to seeing what others think of it, though.


----------



## Junki3e

@FinalmouseJude Make an ambidextrous mouse with the Sensei shape and 3310 sensor pls


----------



## Ricey20

Subbed, very interesting. Thanks for stopping by Jude. Looking forward to reviews from Ino, r0ach, and the other veteran reviewers here. I may actually guinea pig one too since the shape looks like it may be perfect for me. Questions Jude, you said it's 3 weeks from release. How come Amazon is selling it already and seems to be in stock?


----------



## iceskeleton

One thing I would like to know is if you guys tested the mouse click delay/lag. I refer to this thread
http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison
which shows some comparison between different mice out there.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iceskeleton*
> 
> One thing I would like to know is if you guys tested the mouse click delay/lag. I refer to this thread
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison
> which shows some comparison between different mice out there.


Short answer, Yes click registration is something that is definitely looked at. However that thread doesn't tell the whole story unfortunately. Each persons UNIQUE computer plays a HUGE part in those numbers. and to be frank this is one area where it is simply easier to read the hardware components than to do testing.


----------



## lookitdisnub

Oh baby 74g and 3310. Mine will arrive on the 26th and I'll provide whatever feedback I can


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Short answer, Yes click registration is something that is definitely looked at. However that thread doesn't tell the whole story unfortunately. Each persons UNIQUE computer plays a HUGE part in those numbers. and to be frank this is one area where it is simply easier to read the hardware components than to do testing.


Thanks for the response


----------



## Maximillion

All I'm getting when I go to the site is a white page with "Coming soon" in the upper-left corner


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> All I'm getting when I go to the site is a white page with "Coming soon" in the upper-left corner


gotta put in the www.

ordered this off amazon, should be here by the 26th? 3310 at 74g? Sounds pretty good on paper


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> All I'm getting when I go to the site is a white page with "Coming soon" in the upper-left corner


They took the site down for now. I imagine they didn't expect the name to get leaked obviously and as such didn't expect people to find the site, haha.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> All I'm getting when I go to the site is a white page with "Coming soon" in the upper-left corner


Yes we took the site down since it was not finished yet and we had not launched... did not want people to get confused with any placeholder text or images that were on there..


----------



## Vorsplummi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ricey20*
> 
> Subbed, very interesting. Thanks for stopping by Jude. Looking forward to reviews from Ino, r0ach, and the other veteran reviewers here. I may actually guinea pig one too since the shape looks like it may be perfect for me. Questions Jude, you said it's 3 weeks from release. How come Amazon is selling it already and seems to be in stock?


I can already see in the future:

Ino review: Good build quality, very lightweight, great sensor performance, good customization options

r0ach review: Stars were not aligned, clown cursor

It will be interesting to see how Finalmouse tries to take market share from bigger manufacturers. Looks like they won't compete with price which would be the most obvious one. Pros for pros won't go trough unless they manage to get big sponsor deals.


----------



## rebecca black

Looks interesting but I wouldn't pay $67 without seeing some absolutely rave reviews on it first.


----------



## Derp

Please consider ambidextrous shells in the future.


----------



## kicksome

Imperator has a perfect grip for me but yeah that sensor...


----------



## Nivity

Hm. At first I thought ok so a imperator with the heavy ass weight it carries.

Then I read your 74gram and actually got very interested.

I prefer a ambidextrous shape always, but yet I am using a Roccat kone pure military for the size.
But the weight is abit to much (90grams on a smaller mice tend to feel very heavy)

Subbed and will keep my eye on this.

There are a few well known testers on this forum, hope they get a sample.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rebecca black*
> 
> Looks interesting but I wouldn't pay $67 without seeing some absolutely rave reviews on it first.


Yeah, this is my thought. Only way I'd jump in is if their shape mimicked the G9 (with its smaller shell) or a Sensei or something. Not familiar with the Imperator shape so I'll wait for impressions. And though I guess it's unfair to them, after the Aurora and its QC issues I'll also wait to see about that.


----------



## t00t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Everyone,
> 
> My name is Jude I am one of three engineers here with FinalMouse. Today we just got a google alert regarding this forum thread and were kind of suprised
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as how we have not launched yet, and all our pro's that have been helping us test and developed were supposed to keep things under the radar (LOOKING AT YOU ADREN)
> ...We really look forward to working closely with the overclock community. All input, questions, ideas are welcome. We see this not as the "FinalMouse" because we think perfection was achieved, but because we want to collaborate with the community for that never ending achievement of perfection.


Sounds and looks very interesting. 3310 is a great performer and I'm yet to see / feel a 3310 mouse that works well for a hybrid grip without weighing quite heavily.
Keeping a close eye on this - I'd be more than willing to provide testing feedback, too!


----------



## Sencha

PM'd definitely subbed and interested in this one.


----------



## a_ak57

Regarding price, it's honestly a matter of this being your first venture. I mean, Zowie mice are super basic and people have paid the $60-70 for them since we can expect a quality mouse. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but for all we know you could just be "idea people" and the mouse could actually have a relatively poor implementation of the 3310 or maybe the way you got it down to 74g yields a weight imbalance or something, hence wanting to wait for some impressions. I am rooting for you though, as it'd be nice to have another company delivering solid products for the niche crowds.

though like i said, if you guys had a g9 shape I'd instabuy >_>


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Hey Jude,

First of all thank you for joining this forum and be right from the start here at OCN.

I can think many people will appreciate it if a new peripheral company is open for feedback.

Now you said in one of you post

Quote:


> Now I could write essays about the mouse, the stuff we have done to achieve even better performance with the 3310. and blah blah blah insert marketing copy here...


That's makes me and many others very curious in what you have done.

So my question is would you like to share exactly what you have done to achieve better performance with the 3310.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Regarding price, it's honestly a matter of this being your first venture. I mean, Zowie mice are super basic and people have paid the $60-70 for them since we can expect a quality mouse. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but for all we know you could just be "idea people" and the mouse could actually have a relatively poor implementation of the 3310 or maybe the way you got it down to 74g yields a weight imbalance or something, hence wanting to wait for some impressions. I am rooting for you though, as it'd be nice to have another company delivering solid products for the niche crowds.
> 
> though like i said, if you guys had a g9 shape I'd instabuy >_>


Sure thing, appreciate the honesty. Obviously it takes a long time for a brand to establish trust with the community. To address your concerns: Weight balance was not something new to our team at all and no tooling was compromised for weight achievement. I think you will be positively surprised with the center of mass for the FinalMouse. If you are a hacker type and feel like removing the cable and wiring you will find that the realistic balance point is only just a couple millimeters below the middle of the sensor.


----------



## Rickles

Yea, $67 is too steep for so many unknowns...

Best of luck to you!


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> Hey Jude,
> First of all thank you for joining this forum and be right from the start here at OCN.
> I can think many people will appreciate it if a new peripheral company is open for feedback.
> Now you said in one of you post
> That's makes me and many others very curious in what you have done.
> So my question is would you like to share exactly what you have done to achieve better performance with the 3310.


Hey ctrl,

Thanks for the comments. (And got your pm btw will reply soon).

Here is the basic gist of how a sensor can be implemented differently. As long as your engineer isn't mentally challenged implementing the hardware and firmware of the 3310 is literally just following "instructions" for lack of a better word.

Now what can be changed (even though it's not recommended by the sensor manufacturer) is the lens kit that goes with the sensor. Usually a manufacturer recommends it's own lens kit for each specific sensor. And for most general use cases a factory should just use the recommended lens kit. Sometimes however people think outside of the box for better LOD results. But this needs to be done carefully since it could impair sensor function in different areas. So what you can do is basically replace the recommended lens kit with another one. In our case we are using a different ADNS lens kit. I will not be revealing the name of the lens kit since it is a "secret sauce" in a way. But from a user standpoint you can expect to see no visible fade (there is a better word than fade I can't think of) when you lift off the mouse. It's an abrupt stop in tracking at a nice low distance. And I think for all us low sens fps gamers this is a crucial component to a good esports mouse. But I don't want to act like this is a new revolutionary idea at all... Very simple stuff... Just gotta find the right lens kit


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey ctrl,
> 
> Thanks for the comments. (And got your pm btw will reply soon).
> 
> Here is the basic gist of how a sensor can be implemented differently. As long as your engineer isn't mentally challenged implementing the hardware and firmware of the 3310 is literally just following "instructions" for lack of a better word.
> 
> Now what can be changed (even though it's not recommended by the sensor manufacturer) is the lens kit that goes with the sensor. Usually a manufacturer recommends it's own lens kit for each specific sensor. And for most general use cases a factory should just use the recommended lens kit. Sometimes however people think outside of the box for better LOD results. But this needs to be done carefully since it could impair sensor function in different areas. So what you can do is basically replace the recommended lens kit with another one. In our case we are using a different ADNS lens kit. I will not be revealing the name of the lens kit since it is a "secret sauce" in a way. But from a user standpoint you can expect to see no visible fade (there is a better word than fade I can't think of) when you lift off the mouse. It's an abrupt stop in tracking at a nice low distance. And I think for all us low sens fps gamers this is a crucial component to a good esports mouse. But I don't want to act like this is a new revolutionary idea at all... Very simple stuff... Just gotta find the right lens kit


Thank you for sharing this, I thought so already but nice to see it confirmed.

But using a different lens can screw up real dpi values will you guys be using all dpi steps then of the avago 3310?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> Thank you for sharing this, I thought so already but nice to see it confirmed.
> 
> But using a different lens can screw up real dpi values will you guys be using all dpi steps then of the avago 3310?


No. We built the following values into the hardware: 400, 800, 1600, 3200

We did ALOT of pretuning to take out the chance for user error. That is why there is no driver. We simply saw no reason for people to stray away from the optimal configuration. Plug and play with Mac and pc, all ready to go.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> No. We built the following values into the hardware: 400, 800, 1600, 3200
> 
> We did ALOT of pretuning to take out the chance for user error. That is why there is no driver. We simply saw no reason for people to stray away from the optimal configuration. Plug and play with Mac and pc, all ready to go.


sounds like music to my ears


----------



## Maximillion

Low LOD lens kit, 3310 with 400/800/1600/3200 CPI steps, low weight, driverless...Zowie has some competition.


----------



## TheGMT

I had an imperator a long time ago, before I knew anything about mice, back then it felt pretty good despite being a far cry from what I like nowadays. What's really so fantastic to see is how widely available the 3310/3090 are these days, the heated competition is just so good for us picky folks. Colour me interested, especially if you want to take a crack at a mx300/G100s (I know they're not the same, asking for one or t'other) shaped mouse down the line









More mice out there is a good thing. Weight sounds great, sensor's great. I hope to pick one up sometime soon. Thanks for interacting with us, always appreciated, and good luck!


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Maybe I overlooked it but what switches will the mouse use?

Omrons? Huanos?

And how many steps will the scroll wheel have?

Seeing a counterstrike player used it in his stream normal 24 or will it have less notches?

plus what max speeds can we expect at the given DPI settings of 400 and 800.

And next time let some people sign an nda







if you want to keep things secret.


----------



## trriL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> Maybe I overlooked it but what switches will the mouse use?
> 
> Omrons? Huanos?
> 
> And how many steps will the scroll wheel have?
> 
> Seeing a counterstrike player used it in his stream normal 24 or will it have less notches?
> 
> plus what max speeds can we expect at the given DPI settings of 400 and 800.
> 
> And next time let some people sign an nda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you want to keep things secret.


You beat me too the switches question. I'd also like to know this.

@FinalmouseJude
You mentioned the DPI steps are locked to 400, 800, 1600, 3200. Are the lower DPI steps 3200 DPI interpolated? Also what will the polling rate(s) be on this mouse?

This is very cool, I'm really excited to hear of a mouse company making a light mouse, with a good sensor.


----------



## t00t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> No. We built the following values into the hardware: 400, 800, 1600, 3200
> 
> We did ALOT of pretuning to take out the chance for user error. That is why there is no driver. We simply saw no reason for people to stray away from the optimal configuration. Plug and play with Mac and pc, all ready to go.


Nice and pure - happy to hear that!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> Maybe I overlooked it but what switches will the mouse use?
> 
> Omrons? Huanos?


I noticed the (cached) website mentions Japanese Omrons - obviously, that's unconfirmed though.


----------



## Vorsplummi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> No. We built the following values into the hardware: 400, 800, 1600, 3200
> 
> We did ALOT of pretuning to take out the chance for user error. That is why there is no driver. We simply saw no reason for people to stray away from the optimal configuration. Plug and play with Mac and pc, all ready to go.


That sounds really good.


----------



## M0rb1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trriL*
> 
> You beat me too the switches question. I'd also like to know this.
> 
> @FinalmouseJude
> You mentioned the DPI steps are locked to 400, 800, 1600, 3200. Are the lower DPI steps 3200 DPI interpolated? Also what will the polling rate(s) be on this mouse?
> 
> This is very cool, I'm really excited to hear of a mouse company making a light mouse, with a good sensor.


From what I know all steps of 50 DPI on the 3310 are native, although I can't confirm that.


----------



## Skylit

While it may not be the case, we have a user without prior post informing the community about a product obviously targeted to the demographic of users on this forum. Better yet, an employee immediately registers and post for full damage control of said product.. heh.

I don't know, but I don't really like what I'm seeing here.
Quote:


> Now what can be changed (even though it's not recommended by the sensor manufacturer) is the lens kit that goes with the sensor. Usually a manufacturer recommends it's own lens kit for each specific sensor. And for most general use cases a factory should just use the recommended lens kit. Sometimes however people think outside of the box for better LOD results. But this needs to be done carefully since it could impair sensor function in different areas. So what you can do is basically replace the recommended lens kit with another one. In our case we are using a different ADNS lens kit. I will not be revealing the name of the lens kit since it is a "secret sauce" in a way. But from a user standpoint you can expect to see no visible fade (there is a better word than fade I can't think of) when you lift off the mouse. It's an abrupt stop in tracking at a nice low distance. And I think for all us low sens fps gamers this is a crucial component to a good esports mouse. But I don't want to act like this is a new revolutionary idea at all... Very simple stuff... Just gotta find the right lens kit smile.gif


Can you take a picture of the stated assembly?

Unless I've missed something over the years, I'm calling baloney on the fact that you have a different ADNS assembly present in your mouse.
Quote:


> Also we are listening very closely to people's opinions regarding the price point. What do you guys think is a price point you would really like to see us aim for in the future? As we expand into retailers after launch we will try and bring it down as much as possible, *but as you know the 3310 and it's related lens kit is one of the more expensive chipsets.*


Compared to what? Entry level products?







Please.


----------



## CorruptBE

When I think "custom lens" I think "Zowie derped up the malfunction speed" ...

But np, they got Sauce. Secret sauce.

Also, 3310's lens seemned pretty much the same as a DA's lens (at least in the FK1, correct me if I'm wrong... Skylit?).

Either way if this mouse it's performance is decent enough (which is yet to be proven), it might prove as a decent alternative to G400/imperator users (especially imperator users... Z-Axis bug COUGH*).

If you want to do "damage control" on this forum tbh: Provide facts, numbers and performance. If you want people on this forum to like your mouse, its performance should do the talking, not the "talk" itself.

A good product sells itself imo, provided it's "out" there being shown to enough people.


----------



## pyrexshorts

Skylit, I have no affiliations with final mouse, I had no previous knowledge of it before Adren's stream. I'm not sure what I can give as proof besides my steam account (I just deleted my reddit account).


----------



## bigjw

anyone know the dimensions?


----------



## TheGMT

Seems to use the shell of the imperator so "Approximate Size : 123 mm / 4.85” (Length) x 70 mm / 2.76” (Width) x 43 mm / 1.69” (Height)" would be my guess.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGMT*
> 
> Seems to use the shell of the imperator so "Approximate Size : 123 mm / 4.85" (Length) x 70 mm / 2.76" (Width) x 43 mm / 1.69" (Height)"


It is 123.46mm(L)*70.20mm(W)*42.37mm(H), and with that Info you can easily find the shell on certain websites, just google it.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Also, 3310's lens seemned pretty much the same as a DA's lens (at least in the FK1, correct me if I'm wrong... Skylit?).


3310 utilizes the same lense as previous LED lit sensors, which would be the "2120", and yeah Zowie has gone back to the "normal" recommended Lense because there is no need for a different Lense to achieve a lower LOD with 3310. Also 2120 is the only "Gaming Lense" that fits, according to skylit 3305 can be fitted by dremeling out stuff, but that also changes CPI Steps, if anything it would be a Lense from the office spectrum which in itself would be a cost reducing method and not more.

Edit:

I guess many Users would prefer the Sensei/Kinzu like shell, and its probably the most stated "wish" around here, maybe i should really start buying some OEM mice.......


----------



## fxniqab

What about the lefties ? Right handed mice are racist towards them


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Sorry for the delay in responding to private messages. I believe everyone now who contacted with interest or questions should have received a reply. Its wonderful to hear any sort of excitement and interest from the people in the OCN community.

I know that a forum is a great place for discussion, and discussion can include hypothetical discussion, factual discussion, and sometimes assumptions as well. However please note that our website and tech specs have not been released, and assuming dimensions of the FinalMouse is like finding a needle in a haystack. Just something to keep in mind so people are not mistakenly misinformed. (for the record those dimensions are not accurate). And also it is tough to assume shape similarity from specific angles of a mouse.

One question I am getting alot right now is regarding the switches. They are in fact Omrons.

I will try to respond to PM's faster, and I am looking forward to having you guys experience the mouse for the first time. It has been amazing conversing with this community thus far. Thanks for the feedback, its something we can always use. The assumptions and conspiracy theories... well... those maybe we could live without... but they are fun to read


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The assumptions and conspiracy theories... well... those maybe we could live without... but they are fun to read


http://www.amazon.com/FinalMouse-2015/dp/B00MX8QSLW

http://www.amazon.com/Vktech%C2%AE-Motospeed-Optical-Adjustable-MOTOSPEED-V2/dp/B00MTK84U2

Reminds me of Feenix and the Nascita, "pure coincidence" or "Razer stole our shell".









Edit: Wasnt Feenix also from California?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/FinalMouse-2015/dp/B00MX8QSLW
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Vktech%C2%AE-Motospeed-Optical-Adjustable-MOTOSPEED-V2/dp/B00MTK84U2
> 
> Reminds me of Feenix and the Nascita, "pure coincidence" or "Razer stole our shell".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Wasnt Feenix also from California?


Our shell is currently an OEM shell that we used like originally mentioned, so no surprises in being able to find a brand using the same shell from our factory. Great job in finding that shell out there on the internet, that was actually impressive







Even we dont have a registrar of brands the factory used this shell CAD for.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ricey20*
> 
> Looking forward to reviews from Ino, r0ach, and the other veteran reviewers here.


Yes, definitely send one to r0ach.
If the mouse passes the r0ach test, I'll buy it without further hesitance.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Great job in finding that shell out there on the internet, that was actually impressive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even we dont have a registrar of brands the factory used this shell CAD for.


This is OCN, home of uber Mouse Geeks that know everything about any device that was, is and will ever be made in the near future







.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> This is OCN, home of uber Mouse Geeks that know everything about any device that was, is and will ever be made in the near future
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Haha, that was quite funny. I think you may be right. I think OCN may find stuff regarding our sensor even we missed. That 1micrometer of drift on a pickup is not noticeable in lab testing, only by OCN.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> Yes, definitely send one to r0ach.
> If the mouse passes the r0ach test, I'll buy it without further hesitance.


Many members of the community have mentioned that r0ach should definitely get a chance at a review. Unfortunately I have not gotten a PM or email from him up to this point


----------



## Maximillion

@r0ach read this thread.


----------



## Skylit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The assumptions and conspiracy theories... well... those maybe we could live without... but they are fun to read


Conspiracy theories huh? Well that's one way to completely ignore my question.

I don't know who's quoting your company prices, but 3310 package isn't exactly "expensive" when looking at all the options. In fact, I'm amused given that MSRP.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Conspiracy theories huh? Well that's one way to completely ignore my question.
> 
> I don't know who's quoting your company prices, but 3310 package isn't exactly "expensive" when looking at all the options. In fact, I'm amused given that MSRP.


Hey Skylit,

Sorry for the confusion, have not been trying to ignore any questions. Just lots of messages coming in left and right, my apologies.

Yes you are right obviously I dont quote the prices. We have several marketing guys, and of course there is business involved to sponsoring teams, etc... But I am not the expert in that I am just guessing here. Because of course you are right, a sensor itself does not create that entire markup.

But I do know that the 3310 is substantially more expensive at the moment than even premium adns sensors. This is all to due with pixarts supply and subsequently the demand for the sensor. A factory can easily add on an additional 4-5 dollars at the current season for the 3310. The reason I wanted to know what your guys' goals were for price point was so that I could relay that to individuals with more control over it.

I hope that answered your question.


----------



## optimisTGO

I'd honestly say see if you guys can work around $50 at most ideally as a new company. Not denying it could definitely be a quality product, but again, for people to invest 60+ into a new and unknown company is hoping for a lot of trust, especially with all the options in the current market for less than that.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> I'd honestly say see if you guys can work around $50 at most ideally as a new company. Not denying it could definitely be a quality product, but again, for people to invest 60+ into a new and unknown company is hoping for a lot of trust, especially with all the options in the current market for less than that.


Noted. Will be sure to pass that information along. We have some guys on our team with many years of experience working for some of the bigger and more established brands you all know, so I'm sure there is a lot more to all this than I can even comprehend. But I think its very valuable to hear what you think in regards to pricepoint. Unfortunately I think marketing is something we all have to deal with in this world, and I know even we wont be able to get around without it.

Thank you for the feedback .


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Noted. Will be sure to pass that information along. We have some guys on our team with many years of experience working for some of the bigger and more established brands you all know, so I'm sure there is a lot more to all this than I can even comprehend. But I think its very valuable to hear what you think in regards to pricepoint. Unfortunately I think marketing is something we all have to deal with in this world, and I know even we wont be able to get around without it.
> 
> Thank you for the feedback .


Yeah. I'm sure your guys already have it in mind, but I think you guys should put some serious effort into getting the mouse into the hands of competitive game streamers. The amount of interest there was in the chat every time Adren mentioned anything about a 'new mouse' was overwhelming and I think that's one of the best ways to get a new name out there currently.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Many members of the community have mentioned that r0ach should definitely get a chance at a review. Unfortunately I have not gotten a PM or email from him up to this point


Have you even noticed what time it is......?

Wait till after Christmas before expecting any responses from anyone, other than the hardcore desperates here on OCN. R0ach no doubt has other interests like family or friends to deal with around this time of year.


----------



## TheGMT

Sorry about my mistake. Given that all the buttons are in the same place and, at least without a scale, it looks identical to the Imperator, I simply assumed you were using the same OEM. Are you allowed to say if the mouse is bigger or smaller than the imperator?


----------



## Nivity

Giving r0ach one is fine, however If there is any smoothing he says its a dumpster mouse and not worth anything for anyone.

I'd rather some real reviewers get one that can be objective and look at more then one thing.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Giving r0ach one is fine, however If there is any smoothing he says its a dumpster mouse and not worth anything for anyone.
> 
> I'd rather some real reviewers get one that can be objective and look at more then one thing.


It is nice to have someone also look at sensor performance, just ignore whatever roach says about the shape


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Giving r0ach one is fine, however If there is any smoothing he says its a dumpster mouse and not worth anything for anyone.
> 
> I'd rather some real reviewers get one that can be objective and look at more then one thing.


I'd rather hear his take on smoothing/latency than anyone else's opinion.

I see it like this: If it passes the r0ach test, its all the way up there with the G502, which happens to be my benchmark for smoothing and latency, too.
He might 'trash' it like you say. But he's not totally black or white in his opinions. If its good, but not as good as the G502, he will still state that its up there - and not just totally trash it, and rank it amongst rubbish mice like a cheap notebook mouse or whatever.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Giving r0ach one is fine, however If there is any smoothing he says its a dumpster mouse and not worth anything for anyone.
> 
> I'd rather some real reviewers get one that can be objective and look at more then one thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd rather hear his take on smoothing/latency than anyone else's opinion.
> 
> I see it like this: If it passes the r0ach test, its all the way up there with the G502, which happens to be my benchmark for smoothing and latency, too.
> He might 'trash' it like you say. But he's not totally black or white in his opinions. If its good, but not as good as the G502, he will still state that its up there - and not just totally trash it, and rank it amongst rubbish mice like a cheap notebook mouse or whatever.
Click to expand...

Well he have talked down on the G502 aswell recently, so that won't do much good








And yes he have several times stated that X mouse is trash and no serious gamer would ever use it, even when everyone does.
And yes he is totally black or white in everything.

But I agree that he might aswell take a look at the smoothing, even if he have nowhere near the technical knowledge of those like skylit.
But I am not one of those that take everything r0ach says with a mountain of salt.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well he have talked down on the G502 aswell recently, so that won't do much good


Is that so? I'd be surprised he trashed the G502 latency or smoothing-wise, which is what I was referring to.

I, too, trash the G502 for its stupendously high weight, its shape and its sniper button. But that doesn't mean I trash the G502 as a whole. Big difference.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well he have talked down on the G502 aswell recently, so that won't do much good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that so? I'd be surprised he trashed the G502 latency or smoothing-wise, which is what I was referring to.
> 
> I, too, trash the G502 for its stupendously high weight, its shape and its sniper button. But that doesn't mean I trash the G502 as a whole. Big difference.
Click to expand...

Don't forget the random crap making the mouse garbage.

Originally Posted by r0ach View Post

The G502 sensor is also plagued by either software or firmware problems. If I load up the Avior 7000 software, put in settings, then uninstall the software, I get pretty consistent results each time. If I load the exact same settings on all three profiles of the G502, each profile tracks differently. One profile will feel faster, slower, less or more sensitive than the other. Then if you set profile three on the G502 to 1000hz and uninstall the software, it will randomly change back to 500hz. It's pretty obvious it has software issues of some kind.

Also since r0ach said things like this It equals everyone having the same problems.


----------



## CorruptBE

You have to take some things he says with a grain of salt. But as with most here I do agree, if a mouse passes "The r0ach test", we can be pretty sure sensor latency is good.

I mainly disagree with some of his Windows tweaks making the mouse smoother, it's the wrong way of thinking imo, you're tweaking the system for lower latency (DPC, ...), I/O activity, ... in GENERAL. This might lead to him thinking this improves HIS MOUSE, but imo it simply improves latency/performance for your overall computer and the mouse is just a side effect.


----------



## trriL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambajuice*
> 
> I just got the finalmouse from amazon 10 minutes ago. Hoorah for next day shipping. Not sure if it's worth it for me to review seeing as how I'm a relative noob to this stuff. It feels nice in the hand. Is there a good review someone can link me? I can try and model parts of it to give people a general idea.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1500615/zowie-fk1-competitive-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino

I'd love to see some pics of it and it by some other mice for size comparison.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambajuice*
> 
> Is there a good review someone can link me? I can try and model parts of it to give people a general idea.


Yes, this.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Short answer, Yes click registration is something that is definitely looked at. However that thread doesn't tell the whole story unfortunately. Each persons UNIQUE computer plays a HUGE part in those numbers. and to be frank this is one area where it is simply easier to read the hardware components than to do testing.


i'm not so sure about that
those numbers are from comparing mice side by side with a logitech g300, with both mice physically connected to the same switch. from what i can tell there is no reason for these large 10ms+ _relative_ differences to depend on one's unique computer hardware.


----------



## trriL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i'm not so sure about that
> those numbers are from comparing mice side by side with a logitech g300, with both mice physically connected to the same switch. from what i can tell there is no reason for these large 10ms+ _relative_ differences to depend on one's unique computer hardware.


It is way easier to read the hardware components then test. Most mouse manufacturers don't test mouse latency to any great detail, except for Logitech (correct me if there are more). Now Logitech is pretty anal about their mice, but you can or anyone that's looked at mouse click latency can see their efforts have paid off. Although at the same time a lot of their mice clicking issues (i.e., double clicking) have been attributed to their low tolerances which result in low click latency/lag.

I care about click latency a lot like a lot of other people. But let's look at it realisticly, to a lot of properly knowledgeable mouse enthusiasts their favorite mouse is a Zowie ECx or a Razer DA. Those two mice are among the worst as far as click latency goes but are still really solid mice, I don't think people who favor them are wrong.

Now I'm not saying click latency is something companies should try to avoid improving. But to most mouse manufacturers held in high esteem a Logitech-level click latency isn't something expected of them.

People would have different results with different PCs. But this has been accounted for by using a benchmark and averaging the results of many tests (I mean testing the same mouse' latency X times in the same environment to get an accurate result.)

If some guy in Japan with a PC and a soldering iron can test click latency, I'm not sure why a company whose business it is to make and sell mice wouldn't test the click latency. Unless it's a huge bother to lower it.

@FinalmouseJude
I still would like to know if the DPI steps under 3200 are interpolated versions of 3200 or if they are native.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trriL*
> 
> Most mouse manufacturers don't test mouse latency to any great detail, except for Logitech (correct me if there are more). Now Logitech is pretty anal about their mice, but you can or anyone that's looked at mouse click latency can see their efforts have paid off.


if i haven't missed anything, then it just happened that logitech mice have a pretty low button latency generally, as a sideeffect of good electronical engeneering, and not to have an argument more to sell their mice.


----------



## trriL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> if i haven't missed anything, then it just happened that logitech mice have a pretty low button latency generally, as a sideeffect of good electronical engeneering, and not to have an argument more to sell their mice.


I agree with you on that their mice don't have low click latency just to sell their mice perse. But they do put effort into making mice with low click latency to meet their standards of quality, which in turn sells mice.

Idk if you saw this but... after CtrlAltel1te and Ino. went to the Logitech innovation center CtrlAltel1te and Ino. posted a topic of their experience and some pictures. They show a picture of a test rig explicitly designed to test click latency. http://www.overclock.net/t/1526139/our-visit-to-the-logitech-daniel-borel-innovation-center-by-ino-and-ctrlaltel1te
So it isn't just a side effect of good electrical engineering.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trriL*
> 
> I agree with you on that their mice don't have low click latency just to sell their mice perse. But they do put effort into making mice with low click latency to meet their standards of quality, which in turn sells mice.
> 
> Idk if you saw this but... after CtrlAltel1te and Ino. went to the Logitech innovation center CtrlAltel1te and Ino. posted a topic of their experience and some pictures. They show a picture of a test rig explicitly designed to test click latency. http://www.overclock.net/t/1526139/our-visit-to-the-logitech-daniel-borel-innovation-center-by-ino-and-ctrlaltel1te
> So it isn't just a side effect of good electrical engineering.


ye i missed that.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Many members of the community have mentioned that r0ach should definitely get a chance at a review. Unfortunately I have not gotten a PM or email from him up to this point


Someone told me to look in this thread.

I'm currently using an Avior 7000 with 3310 sensor and 3.38 firmware, so if I review this mouse, I would be doing a lot of comparison between the two. The Avior 7000 is what I considered to be a horrible mouse at launch due to firmware, but they took feedback on the mouse, acted on it pretty fast, and after two firmware updates, is now a very consistent and responsive mouse. As long as the shape and weight conforms to you, I don't think many good players would be held back by it. Hopefully this mouse will do the same or better.

I'm personally more biased towards ambidextrous mice, but this one is interesting due to the light weight. Around 75-85 grams, the mouse pad surface seems to matter a lot less, and you don't have to worry that if someone breathed on your mouse pad the wrong way, that it's going to cause the speed to be too fast or slow. Lighter mice are just way more consistent and don't rely on surface properties as much.

I'll send a message about testing this.


----------



## lookitdisnub

Even switching from the FK1 to the FK2 feels noticeably better and it's only a 5g difference so I've got high hopes for this one.


----------



## sonskusa

so fooled around with enotus for a few mins to get some numbers on this mouse i just recieved.

all dpi settings have smoothing <2% (+- 0.5%)

polling speed is 500Hz (can't change) with the exception of a couple of measurements done at 800DPI where I was getting as high as 700Hz. Otherwise at all dpi settings I was getting 500Hz consistently.

Max speed at 400 and 800 DPI reported as 7.6m/s

1600 and 3200 DPI reported as 4.6 m/s

the real dpi (measured by enotus after moving the mouse 10cm) is
460 +- 30 @ 400 dpi
930 +- 60 @ 800 dpi
1850+-100 @ 1800 dpi
3700+- 150 @ 3200dpi

After a brief time with the mouse my main problem (other than the large stated-real dpi variance) is the left buttons feel flimsy. it has a dead zone of ~1.5mm so it actuates only when the button is very near the shell. fortunately the clicks are light so the click being muddy shouldn't be a major performance issue as you'll likely just adjust to positioning the left click nearest the point of actuation, but having so much dead-zone gives it a cheap feel. The right mouse button actuates much higher (~1mm gap between button and shell) and feels much nicer by comparison.
middle button takes a fair amount of force to press and isn't easily spammable (unlike a WMO for example), scroll wheel--don't have my other mice to compare with and i dont use a scroll wheel for anything useful in games (even took it off my g502) so i've got nothing valuable to say about it really. side buttons are high and out of the way; they have a fair amount of slack wrt the shell, and stick out which allows you to torque on them and accentuate that slack--again giving a cheap feel. their actuation is fine, easily spammable, and the shape of the buttons don't bother me but I'd guess they will for some people.

can't comment too much on sensor performance as my aim in everything is currently crap as i'm gaming on my old 5 year old Sager NP8660 laptop (original 9800M too!), but in comparison to the g502 I was using I was immediately getting the same numbers in aimbooster (3 lives ~60 targets at 4.75 targ/sec) so apparently the sensor is not a total disaster. will have to wait til the new year when i'm on my home pc to give the sensor a fair shake.


----------



## trriL

@sonskusaVery cool. Can you post a pic?








Thanks in advance.


----------



## sonskusa

Some photos:

FM 2015, g502, WMO Overhead


FM 2015, g502, WMO Side


FM2015 Left Click right above actuation


FM 2015 Left Click Actuated


FM 2015 at rest


Extra: WMO Gore, can someone save me some time and tell me what color wires go with each pin on a standard USB connector?


----------



## Maximillion

Received my unit today as well. I'll post a full review in the upcoming days, don't wanna just spew paragraphs after a few hours of usage.


----------



## Clyq

From everything I've read this is better than a good start to a first mouse put out by a company. Somehow you managed to take a 150g (original mouse) and get 74g out of it; throw in a current sensor; sans software; just about everything anyone has asked for in these forums.. Except an ambidextrous design. If people give this mouse their approval then I'll be on the lookout for an ambidextrous mouse from you guys. A lot of the people I know use their thumb and pinky and palm as "anchors" to give them extra control. The groove for the thumb makes it a deal breaker because of how hard it makes doing the aforementioned.

Just my two cents.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clyq*
> 
> From everything I've read this is better than a good start to a first mouse put out by a company. Somehow you managed to take a 150g (original mouse) and get 74g out of it; throw in a current sensor; sans software; just about everything anyone has asked for in these forums.. Except an ambidextrous design. If people give this mouse their approval then I'll be on the lookout for an ambidextrous mouse from you guys. A lot of the people I know use their thumb and pinky and palm as "anchors" to give them extra control. The groove for the thumb makes it a deal breaker because of how hard it makes doing the aforementioned.
> 
> Just my two cents.


Hey Clyq,

Its quite interesting because the enthusiast crowd appears to be the minority when it comes to preferring ambidextrous mice. Its funny being in meetings with my team and hearing how the mass public sees ergonomic as a huge selling point, yet here in this community it is quite the opposite.

Also i think our ergonomic shape is subtle enough that you can still claw and anchor the mouse like you are descriping. But I understand how the groove can throw you off.


----------



## Clyq

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Clyq,
> 
> Its quite interesting because the enthusiast crowd appears to be the minority when it comes to preferring ambidextrous mice. Its funny being in meetings with my team and hearing how the mass public sees ergonomic as a huge selling point, yet here in this community it is quite the opposite.
> 
> Also i think our ergonomic shape is subtle enough that you can still claw and anchor the mouse like you are descriping. But I understand how the groove can throw you off.


The same market research would say that we want 12,000 CPI. The idea of ergonomic is great. It carries the implication that my hand will not hurt after long periods of use, however, just about every mouse on the market (with a "flawless" sensor) causes me pain after only minutes of use. Partially due to the antisweat coating making it hard to grip and partially due to the large sizes as well , my hands cramp up pretty quickly. I believe it has to do with my grip. The exceptions to this have been small, ambidextrous mice I.e zowie fk, g100s, and the like. If I were to ask you as a company of anything it would be a small ambi mouse but with a bigger butt than the fk









If I were to use a claw grip I would agree with you, but oddly enough that's how I palm. It just gives me more stopping power as opposed to if I kept my thumb and pinky on the mouse entirely and off the mouse pad.

Edit: Hope that didn't come off rude towards you, it was more towards the people which ask for things like a sniper button.


----------



## Ricey20

Got the mouse, my first gripe I have so far is the LOD will depend on your surface. They stated it has a very low LOD but on my Artisan Hayate and Hien the LOD is >2mm. On my mahogany desk and Puretrak Talent it's <1.2mm. I wish there was a method to adjust different LODs like the FK1 does because not every surface is going to have the low LOD they said the mouse will have. Basically though I think if your mouse surface is a very very dark solid color (dark blue or black) then the LOD will be fairly high.

The second gripe I have is the mouse wheel seems loose. If you shake it lightly it wobbles back and forth pretty loudly and you can feel it. It's even more so than my G502 and that thing has a heavy metal wheel.


----------



## edyago

If this is the mouse that's available on Amazon, I have to say, I'm underwhelmed. Just got it in the mail.

The shell definitely doesn't justify the price. The clicks feel like what you would expect with the shell. Not very solid, there's a bit of vertical play in my left click that isn't present in the right. The LED lighting isn't very good either. I can see the light through the semi-transparent logo, which doesn't look that clean for something semi-transparent. This may be intentional and if it is, my bad. I just feel like for something that looks frosted to provide a diffusely lit logo, it's too clear.

I was kind of excited with the weight, small size, packed with the 3310 sensor. It was the perfect mouse on paper. But just opening the box and plugging it in, I already have buyer's remorse. I was kind of keen on getting my boss to review or mention it (or maybe let me do it) on our channel (LinusTechTips) but wow. This is just not worth it.


My mousewheel doesn't have any play in it but the steps are definitely unpronounced compared to the Rival, DA, G100S, and FK I have with me. The Abyssus might be a bit more clear on the steps.

Edit: I just used the thumb buttons for forward/back. A lot of play in the back button but the forward button is solid. Neither have a shape conducive to being clicked straight-on. They're pointed rather than flat like every other mouse has them.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> If this is the mouse that's available on Amazon, I have to say, I'm underwhelmed. Just got it in the mail.
> 
> The shell definitely doesn't justify the price. The clicks feel like what you would expect with the shell. Not very solid, there's a bit of vertical play in my left click that isn't present in the right. The LED lighting isn't very good either. I can see the light through the semi-transparent logo, which doesn't look that clean for something semi-transparent. This may be intentional and if it is, my bad. I just feel like for something that looks frosted to provide a diffusely lit logo, it's too clear.
> 
> I was kind of excited with the weight, small size, packed with the 3310 sensor. It was the perfect mouse on paper. But just opening the box and plugging it in, I already have buyer's remorse. I was kind of keen on getting my boss to review or mention it (or maybe let me do it) on our channel (LinusTechTips) but wow. This is just not worth it.
> 
> 
> My mousewheel doesn't have any play in it but the steps are definitely unpronounced compared to the Rival, DA, G100S, and FK I have with me. The Abyssus might be a bit more clear on the steps.
> 
> Edit: I just used the thumb buttons for forward/back. A lot of play in the back button but the forward button is solid. Neither have a shape conducive to being clicked straight-on. They're pointed rather than flat like every other mouse has them.


Hello Edyago,

Thank you for your feedback, much appreciated. It seems as if most of your gripes are with the feeling of a lack of "build quality". And I agree with you. I think tooling in general always has more room for improvement, and the side buttons definitely can be improved in my opinion. Luckily, I think the points you mentioned are things easily improved upon with future tooling revisions of the shell. Such as changing the side button material, the distance to when they actuate, the play it has. And changing mousewheel components is a breeze, the current one we use is actually present in many legacy esports mice. Also we never have heard anything bad about our LED before but I guess that is something to look at also. It is supposed to be a more focused light not as diffused, maybe thats just not your style.

I think you are right in thinking that the feeling of quality should be directly proportional to the price. I think that is our biggest weakness right now. You mentioned there were several qualities you were looking forward to: weight, sensor, switches, and grip.... Even though the shell hasn't achieved the "apple esque" finish yet, the performance should still be there for high end esports athletes. It would be great to also hear your input on the performance based aspects of the mouse.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## ronal

Overpriced using an OEM shell found in cheaper mice like the VKtech Motospeed V2.

http://www.amazon.com/Vktech%C2%AE-Motospeed-Optical-Gaming-Adjustable-MOTOSPEED-V7/dp/B00MTF23TK/


----------



## edyago

It's impressive that you're on top of things even on Christmas Eve/Christmas.

I just played some CSGO and going from the Abyssus to the FinalMouse seemed relatively pain free. Weight is good. No problems with the cable so far (isn't too hard or too soft).

The LED thing is definitely subjective, I just wasn't sure what you guys were going for. There is a bit of a smudge of what's likely glue (or maybe plastic mold seam?) and I don't think that's intentional.

The bottom is definitely catching my mouse pad though. It looks like the mouse feet are too thin or the flat bottom is sticking out too much but any angle on the mouse and it catches. Whether that's QC on the bottom at play or if it's the mouse feet being too thin, it's definitely catching the bottom which I don't think I've ever had issues with on a mouse except for a Gamdias sample we received maybe 1 1/2 years ago.

On comfort, it's not really standing up to the Rival/MS2 in terms of ergonomics, or the Abyssus/g100s in terms of small form factor making it easier to hold.

If you can sort out the factory tooling or tolerances, maybe use a set of mouse buttons that are less pointy (I understand differentiation for the sake of identity but I don't think pointy triangular buttons are the way to go), I think I could definitely make this my main mouse and bug Linus to mention it.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> It's impressive that you're on top of things even on Christmas Eve/Christmas.
> 
> I just played some CSGO and going from the Abyssus to the FinalMouse seemed relatively pain free. Weight is good. No problems with the cable so far (isn't too hard or too soft).
> 
> The LED thing is definitely subjective, I just wasn't sure what you guys were going for. There is a bit of a smudge of what's likely glue (or maybe plastic mold seam?) and I don't think that's intentional.
> 
> The bottom is definitely catching my mouse pad though. It looks like the mouse feet are too thin or the flat bottom is sticking out too much but any angle on the mouse and it catches. Whether that's QC on the bottom at play or if it's the mouse feet being too thin, it's definitely catching the bottom which I don't think I've ever had issues with on a mouse except for a Gamdias sample we received maybe 1 1/2 years ago.
> 
> On comfort, it's not really standing up to the Rival/MS2 in terms of ergonomics, or the Abyssus/g100s in terms of small form factor making it easier to hold.
> 
> If you can sort out the factory tooling or tolerances, maybe use a set of mouse buttons that are less pointy (I understand differentiation for the sake of identity but I don't think pointy triangular buttons are the way to go), I think I could definitely make this my main mouse and bug Linus to mention it.


I'm a nerd, so I play CS:Go on christmas eve as well.









I'm glad you are liking the weight, and that the sensor is treating you well on your flick shots









The catch on the bottom may be unique to your mouse. It may possible be one of the stickers that were not perfectly aligned? We already have plans to remove stickers all together and do silk screen or laser printing for everything on the bottom. This should avoid occurrences that cause catching.

Yea for grip, coming from those 2 mice especially, you definitely have a justification for not being immediately fond of it. I personally came from a Rival as well and it took me a bit to get used to, but as with all things I now feel the same when I go back.

And once again thank you for taking the time to give feedback. The goal here isn't to make this everyone's favorite mouse (that is not possible). But if we can improve the majority of peoples experience by using a different side mouse button shape, etc.... We will do what it takes.

-Jude


----------



## Clyq

Can anyone that has the mouse take it apart and show the PCB? I need some nudity.







Also a performance review, etc.


----------



## boogdud

I just can't unsee the Destiny logo on that mouse.


----------



## Clyq

Wow, you're right. "Final" mouse.. "Destiny"..
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boogdud*
> 
> I just can't unsee the Destiny logo on that mouse.


----------



## HAGGARD

The specs may be neat (low-weight, no-BS implementation of a solid sensor), but I can't help myself not placing this mouse among the countless others that tried to get an OEM shell and put a passing-gen popular sensor in it for a "quick cashgrab". And then those were even priced way more competitively.
Sensor implementation is a more complicated issue as we have learned throughout the years. Begins with the firmware and ends with seemingly miniscule things such as quality of the LED and micrometer-precise positioning of it relative to the lens as shown by Logitech. The lens itself plays an important role as well, so I'd be interested if "FinalMouse" did indeed change something there.

From what I've heard the first worrying sign is that the polling rate is limited to 500Hz but spikes to 700Hz at certain CPI steps. People that have the mouse should start applying the standard tests (switch latency with bloody's mouse shooting test, polling stability with mouserate logging, speed response and count report behaviour with MouseTester and some mspaint stuff).


----------



## qsxcv

@sonskusa


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Overpriced garbage using an OEM shell found in cheaper mice like the VKtech Motospeed V2.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Vktech%C2%AE-Motospeed-Optical-Gaming-Adjustable-MOTOSPEED-V7/dp/B00MTF23TK/


That shell looks like Mionix Naos. Not even close to this shell.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> That shell looks like Mionix Naos. Not even close to this shell.


Hover your cursor over the motospeed v2


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> Overpriced garbage using an OEM shell found in cheaper mice like the VKtech Motospeed V2.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Vktech%C2%AE-Motospeed-Optical-Gaming-Adjustable-MOTOSPEED-V7/dp/B00MTF23TK/


Are you high? where can i get some?

Theres clear differences man, just look at the buttons the one you linked has the buttons and shell in one piece, this has the buttons cut out (which is good.)

not that id buy one, but still.. not the same


----------



## Maximillion

Just for clarification, the V2 is the mouse he was referencing. Which does in fact have an identical shell.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I just ordered this mouse since it's on Amazon with free shipping. I'll post a review in a couple weeks.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> I see it like this: If it passes the r0ach test, its all the way up there with the G502, which happens to be my benchmark for smoothing and latency, too.


Why would you use the g502 for a benchmark when the mlt04 is significantly better? Even the KPM is better than the g502.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> so fooled around with enotus for a few mins to get some numbers on this mouse i just recieved.
> 
> all dpi settings have smoothing <2% (+- 0.5%)


You got those numbers from enotus? The "smoothness" part?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clyq*
> 
> The same market research would say that we want 12,000 CPI. The idea of ergonomic is great. It carries the implication that my hand will not hurt after long periods of use


@FinalmouseJude *This*.

Casual gamers typically do not know what they want, or what is good and bad. They think "oh, that looks cool", "that seems like a good idea". But most of their opinions are ignorant and not based on anything objective, or any extensive personal testing. You have to do a lot of personal testing with a lot of different mice to get a good idea of what's good and bad.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clyq*
> 
> however, just about every mouse on the market (with a "flawless" sensor) causes me pain after only minutes of use. Partially due to the antisweat coating making it hard to grip and partially due to the large sizes as well , my hands cramp up pretty quickly. I believe it has to do with my grip. The exceptions to this have been small, ambidextrous mice I.e zowie fk, g100s, and the like.


That's interesting... Most recent mice cramp my hand because they're too thin...

And I've seen plenty of others reiterate that opinion as well.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Just for clarification, the V2 is the mouse he was referencing. Which does in fact have an identical shell.


Havent a clue why he wouldent link that instead in that case


----------



## mrvirtualboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You got those numbers from enotus? The "smoothness" part?


I've always wondered what enotus meant by "smoothness." I can't imagine it's referring to frame-implicated delay.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> so fooled around with enotus for a few mins to get some numbers on this mouse i just recieved.
> 
> all dpi settings have smoothing <2% (+- 0.5%)


The test you are referring to is "smoothness" and has nothing to do with smoothing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> polling speed is 500Hz (can't change) with the exception of a couple of measurements done at 800DPI where I was getting as high as 700Hz. Otherwise at all dpi settings I was getting 500Hz consistently.


That's enough to botch a mouse. You can't come out in 2014 with a 3310 mouse that doesn't do more than 500Hz.
Did you double check with mouserate and/or MMR?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> Max speed at 400 and 800 DPI reported as 7.6m/s
> 
> 1600 and 3200 DPI reported as 4.6 m/s
> 
> the real dpi (measured by enotus after moving the mouse 10cm) is
> 460 +- 30 @ 400 dpi
> 930 +- 60 @ 800 dpi
> 1850+-100 @ 1800 dpi
> 3700+- 150 @ 3200dpi


As you might have noticed by now, enotus is outdated and imprecise.
Microe's mouse test gives much more accurate results.
If yo want to review, that's the strandard.

And now.. we want to see the insides.


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> The test you are referring to is "smoothness" and has nothing to do with smoothing.
> Did you double check with mouserate and/or MMR


Sorry for adding confusion, it is enotus smoothness i refer to.

I pmed Jude before making the post asking about changing the polling rate and was told its fixed at 500hz for performance reasons.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> I pmed Jude before making the post asking about changing the polling rate and was told its fixed at 500hz for performance reasons.


Lol and that's where it all falls apart..
I want a full essay explanation of that









(and a picture of the MCU)


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> I pmed Jude before making the post asking about changing the polling rate and was told its fixed at 500hz for performance reasons.


----------



## treach

500 hz 3310 GG, claiming mousebuttonlag is dependent on different setups GG


----------



## thizito

Terrible big shape low weight
big shape = 100g~
Make wmo-like shape same weight and profit ...


----------



## detto87

500 Hz fixed? Well, that's the end right there.
If they really said it is because of performance reasons, well that'll leave an impression on their skills regarding the sensor...


----------



## discoprince

3310 stuck at 500hz?

what?


----------



## sonskusa

Don't think giving up 1khz for fixed 500hz is a deal-breaker, as this mouse lives and dies by the sensor performance imo. the deal breaker is it's priced too high by about 2x.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello Everyone,

Firstly, Merry Christmas! I hope you are all having a great holidays.

Regarding why we decided to fix the mouse at 500hz and why it was better:

When everything is working and stable, which with the 3310 is more often than not, 1000hz is going to give you that trivial 1ms advantage over 500hz, and there are not any real downsides. In testing you may notice more jitter but this is normal. Keep in mind however how trivial this 1ms advantage really is. In fact, you are never going to notice it.

On the other hand, let us say something is affecting the stability of a 1k polling rate. It could be a certain bus/switch/board, program, OS. In one instance I noticed a compromise on a machine because "Minecraft" was running.... When the stability is affected the sensor performance can be affected negatively in a multitude of ways. Sometimes it may even just be a high pitch noise you hear coming from the mouse.

But the fundamental thinking and vision behind this was: We wanted to make a mouse that was tournament ready for our Pro gamers. When an esports athlete is using their equipment at a lan or event, they dont have the luxury of knowing what they are plugging their mouse into. We wanted FinalMouse to be plug and play ready for any situation, and most importantly offer its optimal performance in all of these situations.

With this thinking, and wanting to keep things simple, there was no reason not to simply use 500hz. For all extensive purposes it is going to do the same thing. Many CS:GO pros even have a placebo complex with 500hz and they actually think it feels better to them







Obviously that is not true but we can let them think what they want.

For those that are asking "Why not have the option to switch the polling rate? Could even do it on the hardware so you can keep simplicity of the driver free setup?" To answer that, we actually originally did have the option to switch hardware settings with a switch on the bottom of the mouse. But we decided this was such a trivial feature we removed the excess weight, and you can even look at the bottom right corner of the top sticker underneath the mouse, and see a hidden little whole leading to the PCB where this was all originally implemented.

I hope this has answered your questions regarding the polling rate. And once again Merry XMAS!

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Vorsplummi

I personally don't care if it is fixed to 500hz or 1000hz as long as it works.

I'm using FK on 500hz setting and it spikes to 1000hz from time to time but I've never been affected by it.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, people made the same hubub in regards to the KPM's unstable polling rate. It has virtually zero impact on performance but because it's one of the few things laymen can actually measure with a program, it's going to draw undue attention.

The only time I've heard of the 500 to 1000hz difference being noticeable was when blurbusters wrote about it on their site recently when testing it with lightboost. But I have the xl2411z and don't even use lightboost since turning it on has more negative affects than positive ones.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, people made the same hubub in regards to the KPM's unstable polling rate. It has virtually zero impact on performance but because it's one of the few things laymen can actually measure with a program, it's going to draw undue attention.
> 
> The only time I've heard of the 500 to 1000hz difference being noticeable was when blurbusters wrote about it on their site recently when testing it with lightboost. But I have the xl2411z and don't even use lightboost since turning it on has more negative affects than positive ones.


High polling rates will work better with high frame-rates.
At 300 fps you're not even getting 2 inputs per frame period if polling 500Hz.
250fps @ 1000Hz is ideal and will grant minimum inputlag (4ms frames, input occurs 4 times per frame).
250fps @ 500 is decent, but we've had better since a long time. No reason to downgrade.

As for monitors I use a CRT so none of that nonsense.









EDIT: It's not about moving the mouse on the desktop hoping to feel the difference...


----------



## HAGGARD

1kHz is objectively better than 500Hz, let that be clear whatever the margin is. It is up to 2ms faster, which in practice could lead to mouse data making it in time for input gathering, frame rendering or a refresh cycle. If you ever experience problems with 1kHz on a PC, chances are the PC is old enough to not be able to run the games you are trying to play either way.

I agree that it is not a definite deal-breaker in general, inconsistent polling rates however are. If there are spikes or irregularities caused by the mouse, it will affect the performance. It can both be the cause of problems but also a symptom of other problems. I had the same happen with an EC2 and if you ever used a MX518 at 1kHz you will know this as well. The EC2 would sometimes drop down to cap out below 1kHz which disrupts the continuity and smoothness of rotation noticeably in a game situation and the MX518 can't reach 1kHz and caps out at around 700Hz, which is indicative of some other flaw with the mouse, like an inherent clock interval inducing latency or a flawed USB protocol implementation or what do I know.

Looking at polling behaviour is definitely worthwhile.


----------



## povohat

There is a noticeable difference in games that run at >1000fps without vsync (eg: Quakeworld), as I have described elsewhere on this forum. I accept this as a fringe case (everyone here seems to play bf and cs at sub 200fps), but it's an example of a visible advantage to high polling rate. The same test will expose the benefits of the 2000Hz Asus mouse.


----------



## kicksome

When was release set for on this one? Did Jude mention in 3 weeks or so?


----------



## qsxcv

if there is a dpi toggle there is no reason the same button can't be used as a 500/1000hz toggle

e.g. hold down for 5 seconds to toggle between 500/1000hz


----------



## Aventadoor

It would be awsm to have hz button under the mice.
Like older Razer Abyssus.

Anyway, this mice looks really cheap


----------



## Clyq

I think I would use a mouse that looked like a pony and meant for two year olds if it had the right size, shape, malfunction speed, lod, tracking, etc.. I get that at its price point you don't expect OEM shell and get to knit pick a bit more, but isn't performance above all else? ..durability, too but how many of us here can't fix a mouse if we abuse it (with love). Just saying, until we get some reviews I hate seeing all the negative comments.


----------



## optimisTGO

Should have mine tomorrow or Saturday. Look forward to trying it out.


----------



## espgodson

just canceled my order after person said that bottom of mouse catches on mousepad as that would be a huge problem to me. im super picky about mice and would love to give it a chance but i'll give it some time i guess. i can't justify spending $67 after so many disappointments


----------



## Clyq

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> Should have mine tomorrow or Saturday. Look forward to trying it out.


I'll be waiting


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> just canceled my order after person said that bottom of mouse catches on mousepad as that would be a huge problem to me. im super picky about mice and would love to give it a chance but i'll give it some time i guess. i can't justify spending $67 after so many disappointments


Yeah, sorry to burst the bubble!

It looks like the issue is that the bottom doesn't continue up through the sides like every other mouse on the market and instead only goes up through the front, leaving a seam all around that catches if you angle even slightly. It's not an issue if you don't put too much weight on the mouse but I think if you do, the super light-weight characteristic of the mouse leaves it prone to becoming unbalanced.


----------



## espgodson

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> Yeah, sorry to burst the bubble!
> 
> It looks like the issue is that the bottom doesn't continue up through the sides like every other mouse on the market and instead only goes up through the front, leaving a seam all around that catches if you angle even slightly. It's not an issue if you don't put too much weight on the mouse but I think if you do, the super light-weight characteristic of the mouse leaves it prone to becoming unbalanced.


yeah the imperator does the same thing.. ;(


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> Yeah, sorry to burst the bubble!
> 
> It looks like the issue is that the bottom doesn't continue up through the sides like every other mouse on the market and instead only goes up through the front, leaving a seam all around that catches if you angle even slightly. It's not an issue if you don't put too much weight on the mouse but I think if you do, the super light-weight characteristic of the mouse leaves it prone to becoming unbalanced.


Hey Edyago!

I just went through 12 units I have here with me. And I did not find any tooling issues with the bottom housing meeting the top housing. I went through the CAD as well, the joined area is flush to max +-.1 -- +-.2mm

Here is a picture:


On those 12 units I did have 2 units catch on a cloth mousepad and the reason for one was due to the feet being improperly aligned, and for the other it was a sticker being slightly misaligned. Both fixed with my fingernail









It would be great it you could work with me to investigate this issue you are having!

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Also could you tell me what numbers are marked with a pen on your Quality Control sticker?


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Also could you tell me what numbers are marked with a pen on your Quality Control sticker?


11 and 14 are crossed out. How would you suggest I align the mouse feet? They're not quite flush with the innermost grooves (from what I can see). So each of the feet could go in one direction or another but not be fully flush. it looks like they're cut a bit too short in the corners overall.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> 11 and 14 are crossed out. How would you suggest I align the mouse feet? They're not quite flush with the innermost grooves (from what I can see). So each of the feet could go in one direction or another but not be fully flush. it looks like they're cut a bit too short in the corners overall.


Thank you for the quick response edyago. It is completely unacceptable that the teflon feet on your FinalMouse are not cut perfectly. As it is getting quite late here I will PM you tomorrow regarding the issue so we can resolve it immediately.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## edyago

I just added pictures showing some of the skates. I think you can only see 2 of the skates but none of them are cut perfectly, 1 near the front is the worst, the ones on the rear aren't too bad but the corners are short on all of them.

I almost want to just file down the seam. XD


----------



## sonskusa

so popped my mouse open in an attempt to fix the mouse 1 problem I posted about earlier. glued a thin piece of plastic on top of the omron switch and now the click feels MUCH better and actuates ~0.5mm from it's rest position. to crack open the mouse you remove the bottom two mouse feet and find two screws that must be removed. you do not need to remove the 'finalmouse' sticker that sits above the sensor, although if you do you'll see Motospeed M N V 2 with the not-quite-roccat logo. so it appears to be identical to the shell woll3 posted an amazon link to earlier. also in pulling the case off to fix my mouse 1 problem i saw the extremely questionable use of tape to hold down the lens to the top of the sensor ic. basically adhesive is not long for the world and inside of a mouse that lifetime is going to be shortened. so i'd worry over time your mouse performance suffers because some piece of tape holding your sensor together fails--not good :\


----------



## Axaion

Its not even duct tape?

Thats kind of horrifying


----------



## Junki3e

@FinalmouseJudeWhat about the product warranty in case we receive a defective product or it malfunctions/dies on us under normal circumstances of use?


----------



## Clyq

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> so popped my mouse open in an attempt to fix the mouse 1 problem I posted about earlier. glued a thin piece of plastic on top of the omron switch and now the click feels MUCH better and actuates ~0.5mm from it's rest position. to crack open the mouse you remove the bottom two mouse feet and find two screws that must be removed. you do not need to remove the 'finalmouse' sticker that sits above the sensor, although if you do you'll see Motospeed M N V 2 with the not-quite-roccat logo. so it appears to be identical to the shell woll3 posted an amazon link to earlier. also in pulling the case off to fix my mouse 1 problem i saw the extremely questionable use of tape to hold down the lens to the top of the sensor ic. basically adhesive is not long for the world and inside of a mouse that lifetime is going to be shortened. so i'd worry over time your mouse performance suffers because some piece of tape holding your sensor together fails--not good :\


The lens is underneath the sensor. Companies cover the LED to reduce bleed, and maybe increase focus onto the lens. The tape is not holding anything in place.


----------



## the1freeMan

Can someone post PCB shots?

And of the lens..


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clyq*
> 
> The lens is underneath the sensor. Companies cover the LED to reduce bleed, and maybe increase focus onto the lens. The tape is not holding anything in place.


it's a diving board, two pegs hold the lens assembly down in the rear (away from the ic) the rest of it is free to move. although after re-assembling it appears the part that was being taped down (other end of the diving board) doesn't noticeably effect the important part of the lens, as I can't noticeably shift it around when the mouse is fully assembled.

will post pcb pics later


----------



## turnschuh

So what exactly would be wrong if there was an additional driver to this mouse to change dpi steps and LOD and polling rate (i d be fine with 500 tho).

I get that some people like driver-less mice for what ever reason. But cant there just be a small application to change stuff? It wouldnt interfere with those who dont like drivers.

Or what about different firmware flashers where one for example could remove the 1600 and 3200 out of the dpi rotation so you could toggle between 400 and 800 dpi?

What about a particular flasher which would add a dpi step in the range between 1000-1200?

Etc

(IF you for what ever reason wont provide a driver/application to change things.)

I just hope, the reason you dont provide drivers are NOT the few obsessed people who think that if there was a driver it would automatically (magically) change how the mouse feels, even IF they DONT use it.(?)


----------



## FinalmouseJude

H
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> it's a diving board, two screws hold the lens assembly down in the rear (away from the ic) the rest of it is free to move. although after re-assembling it appears the part that was being taped down (other end of the diving board) doesn't noticeably effect the important part of the lens, as I can't noticeably shift it around when the mouse is fully assembled.


Hello Sonskusa,

I'm excited that your opening up the mouse and exploring the PCB! What you are looking at is not actually the lens. That tape is actually there just as a safety measure incase the led position is compromised during extreme shaking of the mouse. It also makes sure any minute bending does not occur over years of use. And lastly it helps reduce LED diffuse. That tape is only put on during final production and is not part of the tooling nor is it required to hold anything down heheh. You should be happy it's there! Think of it as a safety net for the LED!

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> @FinalmouseJudeWhat about the product warranty in case we receive a defective product or it malfunctions/dies on us under normal circumstances of use?


Hello junki3e,

That is a fantastic question! By the way this information will be on the site once we launch and it goes live: We offer a 3 year warranty for anything that goes wrong with the mouse under normal conditions. We have worked in the peripheral industry for many years and are more than confident in the current tooling and factory QC processes. Our assembly partner and factory is one of the most respected, and has assembled many of the mice you have grown to love in the past!

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Here is a picture of the mouse PCB,



Here is a picture of a final production unit. You can see the specific type of black electrical tape also assists in eliminating any LED diffuse. Not at all meant as a tooling structure or to hold anything in place


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> H
> Hello Sonskusa,
> 
> I'm excited that your opening up the mouse and exploring the PCB! What you are looking at is not actually the lens. That tape is actually there just as a safety measure incase the led position is compromised during extreme shaking of the mouse. It also makes sure any minute bending does not occur over years of use. And lastly it helps reduce LED diffuse. That tape is only put on during final production and is not part of the tooling nor is it required to hold anything down heheh. You should be happy it's there! Think of it as a safety net for the LED!
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


ah good to know. at first I thought it was solely to hold the LED but it looked like it was also connected to the lens assembly below the pcb. any flex of that assembly (even barely perceptible flex of 10s of micron) I'd guess would give false movement. also if you know your tape could live for years in such conditions, please let me know what it is







. My experience in even temperature and humidity controlled labs is a lifetime of ~1 year before the tape either falls off all together or just becomes a gummy mess.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> ah good to know. at first I thought it was solely to hold the LED but it looked like it was also connected to the lens assembly below the pcb. any flex of that assembly (even barely perceptible flex of 10s of micron) I'd guess would give false movement. also if you know your tape could live for years in such conditions, please let me know what it is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . My experience in even temperature and humidity controlled labs is a lifetime of ~1 year before the tape either falls off all together or just becomes a gummy mess.


Hey Sonkusa,

Yep sorry for the confusion it caused.

Grab yourself some Vinyl electrical tape from 3m. It should outlive you!


----------



## lookitdisnub

Just got mine. Unfortunately I'm gonna be going to work in a bit so I can't really post impressions but here's some pictures next to an FK2
http://imgur.com/a/SKpFG

Feels good in my hand. Very light but not a small mouse.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lookitdisnub*
> 
> Very light but not a small mouse.


Thank god. We've had more than enough of those.


----------



## espgodson

so tempted to just buy it .____. i'm so horrible with my money


----------



## the1onewolf

Just got mine early this morning (thanks UPS







) and took it out.
It feels pretty nice! Will play with this more later tonight.










Lol that exif data


----------



## aLv1080

"This item ships to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Want it Monday, Jan. 5? Order within 69 hrs 4 mins and choose AmazonGlobal Priority Shipping at checkout."

First I was like this: DDDDDDD

But then I saw that:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!














:c


----------



## sonskusa

so i slammed my g502 and my fm 2015 together while running the click latency test (keyresponsetime.exe) and the fm2015 was consistently 3.5 +- 1ms faster than the 502, so if i were to look at the thread mentioned earlier it would put this mouse at the lowest end of the chart, but ofc it's highly dependent on the system so i take from it that click latency isn't anomalously bad. when i run the human benchmark ( http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime ) i also get identical results between the 502 and the fm2015.

as i posted earlier with the enotus results, the real dpi @ 800 dpi setting is more like 930 dpi. this means that if i use a 40cm/360 at 800 real dpi (using a g502) in cs go and switch to the fm2015 at the 800dpi setting i have about 35cm/360. so my sensitivity changes from 1.31 (g502) to 1.14 (fm2015) to regain my 40cm/360 when using the fm2015. pretty annoying as i dont know how to make a change finer than the windows sensitivity slider. played a bit of cs after i got my sensitivity right and rediscovered why i love mice that are in the 70g weight limit so much (after spending last couple months at the 100g weight class).


----------



## povohat

Wonder if the PCB is small enough to make a Kinzu with 3310 mod


----------



## Elrick

I suppose this is a question only for FinalmouseJude.

Where are you selling these mice besides Amazon?

Would love to purchase one but it looks like only from Amazon but would like to buy it off Ebay, Newegg or somewhere else more accessible.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the mouse PCB,
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of a final production unit. You can see the specific type of black electrical tape also assists in eliminating any LED diffuse. Not at all meant as a tooling structure or to hold anything in place


Umm, why not use simple BLACK silicone instead of tape because we use it to seal, adhere and waterproof every type of electrical product for the outback







.


----------



## Clyq

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the mouse PCB,
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of a final production unit. You can see the specific type of black electrical tape also assists in eliminating any LED diffuse. Not at all meant as a tooling structure or to hold anything in place


OMG dat PCB... The modding capabilities..

On second thought, it's kind of wide but I'm sure people here could make it work. Shoving it into a WMO and such


----------



## espgodson

doubt i could get a review/test unit so i just went ahead and bought the mouse xD RIP $71.11


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> doubt i could get a review/test unit so i just went ahead and bought the mouse xD RIP $71.11


haha I thought you might








Let us know how it goes. I just opted to buy the ninox Aurora from mass drop last night (was half drunk and thought why not) then thought today I would probably prefer finalmouse, oh well


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> I suppose this is a question only for FinalmouseJude.
> 
> Where are you selling these mice besides Amazon?
> 
> Would love to purchase one but it looks like only from Amazon but would like to buy it off Ebay, Newegg or somewhere else more accessible.


Maybe a place that declares it as 10usd and as a gift, so I wont need to pay insane taxes <3


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello junki3e,
> 
> That is a fantastic question! By the way this information will be on the site once we launch and it goes live: We offer a 3 year warranty for anything that goes wrong with the mouse under normal conditions. We have worked in the peripheral industry for many years and are more than confident in the current tooling and factory QC processes. Our assembly partner and factory is one of the most respected, and has assembled many of the mice you have grown to love in the past!
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


That's more than what Razer and SteelSeries has to offer for warranty! :O


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> That's more than what Razer and SteelSeries has to offer for warranty! :O


Many of Logitech's new mice have been cut down to 2 years as well.


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Many of Logitech's new mice have been cut down to 2 years as well.


I did not know about that  its still 3 years in my country if I remember correctly, I might be wrong


----------



## GHADthc

Owwww hello! I'm pretty sure I could chop that PCB up to fit into a Kinzu, it looks to be a similar size to a DA's PCB...I've started to get addicted to making frankenmice using the Kinzu's shell...I think I mite have accidentally killed my second G502 PCB though...if anyone is interested in making a 'Kinzu v502' you wont be able to use the stock mouse wheel with the G502's PCB..it uses IR led and lrd's to count the notches in the mouse wheel...I dunno if Thunderbringer knew this or not, but he used a MX310's mouse wheel, and either by accident or not, that's the sort of wheel that is needed to make a Kinzu v502 work properly...this mouse on the other hand, looks to be about as simple as making a Kinzuadder...either way, before I be too hasty, I should atleast test it out in its current form, to see how it feels, but if its got sloppy mouse click travel akin to a Corsair Raptor M30, then its a deal breaker for me.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GHADthc*
> 
> Owwww hello! I'm pretty sure I could chop that PCB up to fit into a Kinzu, it looks to be a similar size to a DA's PCB...


The PCB might be a-bit too wide for the Kinzu shell.


----------



## kicksome

If I ordered from amazon now would it get sent straight away or is amazon waiting for final mouse to finalize the product and then sending them once they have acquired them


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> If I ordered from amazon now would it get sent straight away or is amazon waiting for final mouse to finalize the product and then sending them once they have acquired them


People are getting their mice now. There is only one place that sells them: Amazon. Product is already final.


----------



## b0z0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> doubt i could get a review/test unit so i just went ahead and bought the mouse xD RIP $71.11


Message me on esea or ocn how you like the mouse? Tired of buying mice lol


----------



## espgodson

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b0z0*
> 
> Message me on esea or ocn how you like the mouse? Tired of buying mice lol


got you it's gonna be here on monday


----------



## woll3

404, i would say.


----------



## optimisTGO

Received mine today, all my complaints have to do with quality aspects of the shell pretty much. Love the shape and feel, the performance seems spot on, all the buttons click real well, etc. Going to try it more over the next few days and see how I feel.


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> Received mine today, all my complaints have to do with quality aspects of the shell pretty much. Love the shape and feel, the performance seems spot on, all the buttons click real well, etc. Going to try it more over the next few days and see how I feel.


Yeah, I like how mine plays as well. The only complaints I have are slightly shape related but mostly quality and build. My left-click is still loose (I can make a clicking sound with it with the amount of play) and so is my back thumb button (can also make a clicking sound with it there's so much play). I still want to shave down the bottom seam to prevent catching.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> Yeah, I like how mine plays as well. The only complaints I have are slightly shape related but mostly quality and build. My left-click is still loose (I can make a clicking sound with it with the amount of play) and so is my back thumb button (can also make a clicking sound with it there's so much play). I still want to shave down the bottom seam to prevent catching.


Yeah, the left click play is one thing off. The sharp edges on the back between the shell pieces are another, as well as the bottom scraping when lifting sometimes. The cable also has a lot of play where it connects to the body of the mouse.

The only other two things that bother me are the play in the mouse wheel, which is just like Razer's so maybe some people like that, and the shape of the side buttons. Otherwise I really dig it.


----------



## kicksome

So would I be right in saying that this is a larger and lighter version of an imperator but with a better sensor?


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> So would I be right in saying that this is a larger and lighter version of an imperator but with a better sensor?


Same size as the imperator.


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> Yeah, the left click play is one thing off. The sharp edges on the back between the shell pieces are another, as well as the bottom scraping when lifting sometimes. The cable also has a lot of play where it connects to the body of the mouse.
> 
> The only other two things that bother me are the play in the mouse wheel, which is just like Razer's so maybe some people like that, and the shape of the side buttons. Otherwise I really dig it.


Well they have a 3 year warranty, hopefully they change the outer shell to something of better quality before it breaks down after constant use. Im still waiting for mine though, it arrives next year for me.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Same size as the imperator.


boner.jpg


----------



## Dreyka

I'm going to echo what many others have said. Making a Sensei clone with the PMW-3310 sensor is the next mouse Finalmouse should make because it's a shape that many people like and no one else is currently offering that shape with that sensor.


----------



## thizito

U
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> I'm going to echo what many others have said. Making a Sensei clone with the PMW-3310 sensor is the next mouse Finalmouse should make because it's a shape that many people like and no one else is currently offering that shape with that sensor.


----------



## thizito

Also nice to hear jude answering and listening
More 80g shapes pleaseee 70-90g max
Small shapes please


----------



## Maximillion

Alright, been using this mouse for a few days and feel it's been a suitable amount of time to provide some feedback and overall thoughts. A lot of this has already been discussed at this point but okay...

First and foremost: The weight of this mouse is the biggest pro for me personally. It's such a breath of fresh air to get a non-ambi mouse with a good sensor that's sub 80 grams. This alone makes it worth keeping around. I used to think some guys here put too much emphasis on low weight but as I've accumulated/tested more mice it's a legit factor (regardless of sens/game type IMO). I honestly think I'm done with mice that have triple-digit weight in grams. There's simply no reason to use them now that there are plenty of well-performing light mice on the market.

Shape/Grip: You know it's funny, I got this mouse and a EC1 eVo CL around the same time and they're a couple of the best feeling mice I currently own. I've realized something, my dry hands seem to agree most with mice that have straight up plastic coatings (WMO or G100s are prime example). No rubbery side-grips or "special coatings to to give you the edge in game" just give me raw plastic. For this reason the FinalMouse feels great in my hand. I pretty much fingertip it, with just a small part of the right side of my palm cradling the back for support. I feel that I have total control over it at all times (no slipping, re-gripping or adjusting fingers/hand position to find comfort). The mouse is also wide enough that it doesn't cramp my hand.

Build Quality: This is sort of where I have mixed feelings. The problem with these low weight mice (FinalMouse, Aurora, G100s, etc) is they come at the compromise of "premium feeling". I'll straight up say it, this mouse feels cheap. The braided cable is probably the most impressive thing about it from a physical perspective. That being said, as long as there's no issues down the line (faulty scroll wheel, double-clicking issues, mouse feet falling off, etc) I don't see it as a problem for someone who just wants a well-performing nimble mouse. But to be completely honest I don't think it's worth the current price point. Yes, it has a good sensor but it does not justify what is otherwise a $25 mouse.

Sensor/Performance: This is definitely a 3310 mouse. And a great implantation at that. Feels every bit as snappy/responsive as my FK1 and Avior. Remember the EC1 I mentioned earlier? Well, I can feel the swamp cursor compared to these mice both on the desktop and in-game (no, I'm not joking). The FinalMouse, strictly speaking from a tracking perspective, is among the top of the class IMO. I really (REALLY) want guys like r0ach and Kohler to test this mouse out and see how it compares to other 3310/3366/AM010 mice they've experimented with. As for me personally, I cannot feel any difference in performance or tracking between this product and the FK1/Avior. They all are at a level high enough that any "impurities" in tracking are undetectable by me. LOD is fine as well.

_I should also note that like others have mentioned, this mouse has an extremely low "smoothness" percentage in Enotus (around 2% on multiple surfaces, which I can only achieve with my MLT04 mice). I'm not 100% sure what that really means (if anything of importance at all) but if someone can explain why only the FinalMouse and the WMO/IE3.0 are the only mice that can achieve such a low measurement I'd appreciate it._

Conclusion: This is a light mouse with a good grip and decent shape. I didn't mention things like the clicks earlier...they're good enough for me but don't feel as satisfying as say, the Avior due to the cheap build quality of this product. The sensor implementation is right up their with the competitors in my subjective opinion. All that being said I still can't justify the price. There's just too much solid competition in the market and the current build/features of this mouse can't compete in that aspect. I felt the Avior was overpriced before it's drop but at least it feels like a quality piece of equipment. This is a quality sensor in a lackluster generic shell.

That all aside, I am quite pleased that this mouse/company exists. I really appreciate Jude and the rest of the team for coming to us and interacting with us in such a fashion. Things like that are what we need just as much as the next great sensor upgrade. I'm excited to see how this launch goes and check out the future plans for the FinalMouse crew.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Alright, been using this mouse for a few days and feel it's been a suitable amount of time to provide some feedback and overall thoughts. A lot of this has already been discussed at this point but okay...
> 
> First and foremost: The weight of this mouse is the biggest pro for me personally. It's such a breath of fresh air to get a non-ambi mouse with a good sensor that's sub 80 grams. This alone makes it worth keeping around. I used to think some guys here put too much emphasis on low weight but as I've accumulated/tested more mice it's a legit factor (regardless of sens/game type IMO). I honestly think I'm done with mice that have triple-digit weight in grams. There's simply no reason to use them now that there are plenty of well-performing light mice on the market.
> 
> Shape/Grip: You know it's funny, I got this mouse and a EC1 eVo CL around the same time and they're a couple of the best feeling mice I currently own. I've realized something, my dry hands seem to agree most with mice that have straight up plastic coatings (WMO or G100s are prime example). No rubbery side-grips or "special coatings to to give you the edge in game" just give me raw plastic. For this reason the FinalMouse feels great in my hand. I pretty much fingertip it, with just a small part of the right side of my palm cradling the back for support. I feel that I have total control over it at all times (no slipping, re-gripping or adjusting fingers/hand position to find comfort). The mouse is also wide enough that it doesn't cramp my hand.
> 
> Build Quality: This is sort of where I have mixed feelings. The problem with these low weight mice (FinalMouse, Aurora, G100s, etc) is they come at the compromise of "premium feeling". I'll straight up say it, this mouse feels cheap. The braided cable is probably the most impressive thing about it from a physical perspective. That being said, as long as there's no issues down the line (faulty scroll wheel, double-clicking issues, mouse feet falling off, etc) I don't see it as a problem for someone who just wants a well-performing nimble mouse. But to be completely honest I don't think it's worth the current price point. Yes, it has a good sensor but it does not justify what is otherwise a $25 mouse.
> 
> Sensor/Performance: This is definitely a 3310 mouse. And a great implantation at that. Feels every bit as snappy/responsive as my FK1 and Avior. Remember the EC1 I mentioned earlier? Well, I can feel the swamp cursor compared to these mice both on the desktop and in-game (no, I'm not joking). The FinalMouse, strictly speaking from a tracking perspective, is among the top of the class IMO. I really (REALLY) want guys like r0ach and Kohler to test this mouse out and see how it compares to other 3310/3366/AM010 mice they've experimented with. As for me personally, I cannot feel any difference in performance or tracking between this product and the FK1/Avior. They all are at a level high enough that any "impurities" in tracking are undetectable by me. LOD is fine as well.
> 
> _I should also note that like others have mentioned, this mouse has an extremely low "smoothness" percentage in Enotus (around 2% on multiple surfaces, which I can only achieve with my MLT04 mice). I'm not 100% sure what that really means (if anything of importance at all) but if someone can explain why only the FinalMouse and the WMO/IE3.0 are the only mice that can achieve such a low measurement I'd appreciate it._
> 
> Conclusion: This is a light mouse with a good grip and decent shape. I didn't mention things like the clicks earlier...they're good enough for me but don't feel as satisfying as say, the Avior due to the cheap build quality of this product. The sensor implementation is right up their with the competitors in my subjective opinion. All that being said I still can't justify the price. There's just too much solid competition in the market and the current build/features of this mouse can't compete in that aspect. I felt the Avior was overpriced before it's drop but at least it feels like a quality piece of equipment. This is a quality sensor in a lackluster generic shell.
> 
> That all aside, I am quite pleased that this mouse/company exists. I really appreciate Jude and the rest of the team for coming to us and interacting with us in such a fashion. Things like that are what we need just as much as the next great sensor upgrade. I'm excited to see how this launch goes and check out the future plans for the FinalMouse crew.


Hello Max,

Thank you so much for the informative review, insight, and input. It means a great deal to us to have people such as yourself passionate in helping us achieve the final mouse so to speak. I am also thrilled that you are satisfied with the performance of the mouse since we put a great deal of effort into our sensor and firmware implementation. Our goal at launch was to make sure ANY professional gamer could pick up the mouse and notice an immediate performance improvement.

I would like you to know that just in the past couple days me and the team have been busy in planning ways to increase the level of "polish" on the mouse, since that is an area which I would also agree can be improved. It will be a difficult challenge since like you said this "polish" does go hand in hand with weight in many situations. Certain plastics for example feel more polished and quality than others, but the key is to make sure we never sacrifice weight or performance for this polish.

Here are the steps we are already taking to increase the polish:

1: We have already taken the steps to purchase the entire tooling, and remold everything ourselves. This is a costly endeavor but it had to be done at some point.

2. With complete control over tooling the first step will be to make minute industrial design adjustments to reduce even the slightest occurrences of play or seam unevenness. We believe the majority of the polish can be achieved in these simple adjustments.

3. Changing moulds for components such as side buttons, or replacing materials we will do VERY carefully. As like I said previously we do not want to sacrifice weight. Also Step 2 should already bring out that level of polish considerably anyways.

Once again thanks for taking the time to give us your input. I hope the mouse you have helps your game, and like I said before: We are not going anywhere. We have no investor obligations to launch products in separate verticals, or meet any specific quota for press releases of new products. We want to achieve the FinalMouse.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

I hope not to many people are going to jump on the bandwagon with this mouse.

As Skylit mentioned its a typical oem design and it makes no sense to change the lens with an avago 3310.

Reading on ESReality even someone posted this picture:



Under the sticker is even the old name of another brand that has used the shell.

With a bit of googling I found this one aswell http://mototech.en.alibaba.com/product/1739998029-209646618/2014_latest_high_dpi_6_buttons_laser_game_mouse.html

If they order this mouse from:

Shenzhen Mototech Electronics Limited

then probably the mouse will cost around ten dollar a piece if they order a good amount.

The pricing is way too high and it's just a milk cow, reading jude saying 3310 is expensive is not even true.....

My bet is they put the lens in to save money and the lens is even a copycat from an adns its all made in china guys


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> ...


Just when i typed in something ctrl comes, meh.....

And before someone gets some ideas, the Hole is not there because they modified the PCB, like a certain someone concluded, it is also covered by the sticker on the original shell.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> I'm going to echo what many others have said. Making a Sensei clone with the PMW-3310 sensor is the next mouse Finalmouse should make because it's a shape that many people like and no one else is currently offering that shape with that sensor.


Just make your own brand, the factory already has Sensei shapes, so why not?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> ....


No comment on why the lens looks like 2120?


----------



## Maximillion

Well, from the jump Skylit said it was ODM. It's not like it's some big secret. The mouse needs improvement in a few key areas but these guys have the right foundation and idea in mind. But yeah like I stated the currect price isn't justified.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Well, from the jump Skylit said it was ODM. It's not like it's some big secret. The mouse needs improvement in a few key areas but these guys have the right foundation and idea in mind. But yeah like I stated the currect price isn't justified.


It is one thing to make a OEM mouse, another one is it to claim to have "special sauce", especially when it exactly looks like normal sauce. Skylit also brought up a potetnial lawsuit because of the glaring similarities to Imperator.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> I hope not to many people are going to jump on the bandwagon with this mouse.
> 
> As Skylit mentioned its a typical oem design and it makes no sense to change the lens with an avago 3310.


So what?

There's something wrong with OEM shapes now?

That has zero bearing on anything...

This mouse looks to be wider than a lot of other non-OEM shapes that have been released recently, which is a HUGE pro for many people.

That plus their implementation of the sensor/firmware is what matters.

We'll see how (if at all) the lens change affected the mouse.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> So what?
> 
> There's something wrong with OEM shapes now?
> 
> That has zero bearing on anything...
> 
> This mouse looks to be wider than a lot of other non-OEM shapes that have been released recently, which is a HUGE pro for many people.
> 
> That plus their implementation of the sensor/firmware is what matters.
> 
> We'll see how (if at all) the lens change affected the mouse.


Learn to read I never said oem shapes are wrong.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> I hope not to many people are going to jump on the bandwagon with this mouse.
> 
> As Skylit mentioned its a typical oem design and it makes no sense to change the lens with an avago 3310.
> 
> Reading on ESReality even someone posted this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Under the sticker is even the old name of another brand that has used the shell.
> 
> With a bit of googling I found this one aswell http://mototech.en.alibaba.com/product/1739998029-209646618/2014_latest_high_dpi_6_buttons_laser_game_mouse.html
> 
> If they order this mouse from:
> 
> Shenzhen Mototech Electronics Limited
> 
> 
> then probably the mouse will cost around ten dollar a piece if they order a good amount.
> 
> The pricing is way too high and it's just a milk cow, reading jude saying 3310 is expensive is not even true.....
> 
> My bet is they put the lens in to save money and the lens is even a copycat from an adns its all made in china guys


I can't justify spending $70 on this oem mouse. This mouse should be sold at around $30-$35 mark considering it uses an OEM shell.


----------



## Necroblob

If someone is going to put a good sensor in an OEM shell I just wish that they would use one of the basic Dell mouse shapes. Everyone tries to be too flashy!


----------



## Ice009

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Shape/Grip: You know it's funny, I got this mouse and a EC1 eVo CL around the same time and they're a couple of the best feeling mice I currently own. I've realized something, my dry hands seem to agree most with mice that have straight up plastic coatings (WMO or G100s are prime example). No rubbery side-grips or "special coatings to to give you the edge in game" just give me raw plastic. For this reason the FinalMouse feels great in my hand. I pretty much fingertip it, with just a small part of the right side of my palm cradling the back for support. I feel that I have total control over it at all times (no slipping, re-gripping or adjusting fingers/hand position to find comfort). The mouse is also wide enough that it doesn't cramp my hand.
> 
> Sensor/Performance: This is definitely a 3310 mouse. And a great implantation at that. Feels every bit as snappy/responsive as my FK1 and Avior. Remember the EC1 I mentioned earlier? Well, I can feel the swamp cursor compared to these mice both on the desktop and in-game (no, I'm not joking). The FinalMouse, strictly speaking from a tracking perspective, is among the top of the class IMO. I really (REALLY) want guys like r0ach and Kohler to test this mouse out and see how it compares to other 3310/3366/AM010 mice they've experimented with. As for me personally, I cannot feel any difference in performance or tracking between this product and the FK1/Avior. They all are at a level high enough that any "impurities" in tracking are undetectable by me. LOD is fine as well.


Hey Max, great review, I really liked it, especially with you pointing out that the price is a little high for what you get.

Anyone know how much these 3310 sensors actually cost? I've seen it mentioned numerous times that the sensor is expensive. I don't know if manufacturers are using that as an excuse to have high prices on their 3310 mice, or if they really are that expensive?

Also, I wanted to ask about shapes. What is your personal favorite type of shape? I don't hang around here at Overclock.net (great forums btw, probably one of my favorites on the net) a lot (I'm just an occasional reader), but I know you like the IE 3.0 because of the sensor. Do you actually like the shape of that mouse? The reason I ask is because I've got a Logitech G502 and I'm not a fan of the shape.

I'm more of a palm grip user and find the G502 a little uncomfortable, so I am still looking for a decent mouse with an IE 3.0 shape and something like a 3310 sensor. You mentioned you got a Zowie EC1 eVo CL and I just wanted to ask what you think of the shape? From what people have told me, that mouse's shape is the closest to the IE 3.0. I thought about getting one about a month or two ago, but ultimately passed because I wasn't interested in going back to an older sensor after using the G502.

Is Zowie going to be releasing one with a 3310 sensor at all? If not, does anyone know of any other manufacturers that are going to be releasing a mouse with a similar shape to the IE 3.0 and a decent sensor.

Note : I'm not really interested in the Razer DA or Steelseries Rival. The shapes aren't quite the same.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ice009*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Max, great review, I really liked it, especially with you pointing out that the price is a little high for what you get.
> 
> Anyone know how much these 3310 sensors actually cost? I've seen it mentioned numerous times that the sensor is expensive. I don't know if manufacturers are using that as an excuse to have high prices on their 3310 mice, or if they really are that expensive?
> 
> Also, I wanted to ask about shapes. What is your personal favorite type of shape? I don't hang around here at Overclock.net (great forums btw, probably one of my favorites on the net) a lot (I'm just an occasional reader), but I know you like the IE 3.0 because of the sensor. Do you actually like the shape of that mouse? The reason I ask is because I've got a Logitech G502 and I'm not a fan of the shape.
> 
> I'm more of a palm grip user and find the G502 a little uncomfortable, so I am still looking for a decent mouse with an IE 3.0 shape and something like a 3310 sensor. You mentioned you got a Zowie EC1 eVo CL and I just wanted to ask what you think of the shape? From what people have told me, that mouse's shape is the closest to the IE 3.0. I thought about getting one about a month or two ago, but ultimately passed because I wasn't interested in going back to an older sensor after using the G502.
> 
> Is Zowie going to be releasing one with a 3310 sensor at all? If not, does anyone know of any other manufacturers that are going to be releasing a mouse with a similar shape to the IE 3.0 and a decent sensor.
> 
> Note : I'm not really interested in the Razer DA or Steelseries Rival. The shapes aren't quite the same.


Glad you enjoyed the review, but the Max who always advocates the 3.0 is @MaximilianKohler not me lol.

But yeah, the shape of the CL is great for palm, I really couldn't see myself using it comfortably in any other grip. It is quite like the 3.0 because if fills my whole hand and I have complete contact with the mouse (full palm, full length of fingers) so if that's what you're looking for it might work out for you.

What I like most about it though is the coating. Rubbery coatings tend to be slippery for me so plain plastic mice (like the CL and the FinalMouse) are exactly what I need. The CL does't feel quite up to par with the likes of my 3310 mice but is still a respectable sensor. If I were you I'd wait another month or two for a possible announcement from Zowie on the new ECs. I doubt the current ones would be so sparse if they weren't working on a release in the near future. But yeah, I like the EC1 shape/feel over the DA/Rival as well.


----------



## Ice009

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Glad you enjoyed the review, but the Max who always advocates the 3.0 is @MaximilianKohler not me lol.
> 
> But yeah, the shape of the CL is great for palm, I really couldn't see myself using it comfortably in any other grip. It is quite like the 3.0 because if fills my whole hand and I have complete contact with the mouse (full palm, full length of fingers) so if that's what you're looking for it might work out for you.
> 
> What I like most about it though is the coating. Rubbery coatings tend to be slippery for me so plain plastic mice (like the CL and the FinalMouse) are exactly what I need. The CL does't feel quite up to par with the likes of my 3310 mice but is still a respectable sensor. If I were you I'd wait another month or two for a possible announcement from Zowie on the new ECs. I doubt the current ones would be so sparse if they weren't working on a release in the near future. But yeah, I like the EC1 shape/feel over the DA/Rival as well.


lol, shows how much I've been coming here lately. I definitely got the two of you mixed up. I thought I might have the wrong guy as reading through this thread you've bought 3310 mice and I recall the other Max didn't like them because of smoothing earlier on (not sure if that still applies now to a lot of the 3310s that have had firmware updates?), so I should have known right there and then that I might have gotten you two mixed up.

So Zowie haven't said anything about releasing an updated EC1 yet?

Any other brands releasing something with a similar shape? I thought I read that Metal571 said something about Mionix releasing a different shape mouse in their lineup a month or so ago. I'm hoping that it's an IE 3.0 type shape as that would really make their lineup stand out a lot more IMO and I think they'd clean up with that.


----------



## LinkPro

The shapes seems very similar to that of an Imperator. I have been waiting for an Imperator refresh for ages. It had the perfect shape for my hands, but unfortunately ruined by the Twin Eye garbage. I'll keep a close watch of this one for sure.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ice009*
> 
> Hey Max, great review, I really liked it, especially with you pointing out that the price is a little high for what you get.
> 
> Anyone know how much these 3310 sensors actually cost? I've seen it mentioned numerous times that the sensor is expensive. I don't know if manufacturers are using that as an excuse to have high prices on their 3310 mice, or if they really are that expensive?
> 
> Also, I wanted to ask about shapes. What is your personal favorite type of shape? I don't hang around here at Overclock.net (great forums btw, probably one of my favorites on the net) a lot (I'm just an occasional reader), but I know you like the IE 3.0 because of the sensor. Do you actually like the shape of that mouse? The reason I ask is because I've got a Logitech G502 and I'm not a fan of the shape.
> 
> I'm more of a palm grip user and find the G502 a little uncomfortable, so I am still looking for a decent mouse with an IE 3.0 shape and something like a 3310 sensor. You mentioned you got a Zowie EC1 eVo CL and I just wanted to ask what you think of the shape? From what people have told me, that mouse's shape is the closest to the IE 3.0. I thought about getting one about a month or two ago, but ultimately passed because I wasn't interested in going back to an older sensor after using the G502.
> 
> Is Zowie going to be releasing one with a 3310 sensor at all? If not, does anyone know of any other manufacturers that are going to be releasing a mouse with a similar shape to the IE 3.0 and a decent sensor.
> 
> Note : I'm not really interested in the Razer DA or Steelseries Rival. The shapes aren't quite the same.


Sensors are not expensive when you bulk buy them. ($5 a piece for the high end ones max)


----------



## the1freeMan

That smoothness test is really disturbing me, it used to be regarded as "not working" but the real problem is that no one seems to know exactly what it tests.
What I can tell you is that my WMO scores higher than my G400 and since it's based on moving the mouse in circles I'd rather suppose it has something to do with circle drift/precision.
In other words it really makes no sense to think it has something to do with responsiveness/ latency so please stop using it that way.

Before people start using it for circle testing.. the test is very surface dependent and on some it just wont give out any results.
We don't know how it works, but empirical results are too inconsistent and vague, I propose we keep on treating it as bugged/useless as it has no known practical purpose
(maybe it's supposed to be a surface tester).
At least until someone finds out: 1) what it's for, 2) if it's working for that or not.
Just please stop relating it to "smoothing".


----------



## exitone

The finalmouse creators must have thought they could milk cash from a $70 OEM mouse with a few dollars more expensive sensor. not gonna happen but wouldnt be surprised if they've already funded the development cost of this mouse.


----------



## kicksome

Yeah I mustard pit (must admit) if it was on or around the $50 mark I would have already bought it. 70 is pushing the friendship just a little bit


----------



## Dreyka

$70 is a bit too much for a mouse that is mostly OEM and has a shell with mediocre build quality. As much as people will complain about price here they'll still buy the mouse if the shape and weight is to their liking though. Personally, $50 is a more reasonable price for a well performing PMW-3310 sensor mouse.

Is there any software at the moment for this mouse that allows you to change the CPI or Lift Off Distance?


----------



## Vantavia

Just a lil' tidbit, don't use glossy sides unless you want to be a bootleg of Razer (glossy sides are disgusting).


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Is there any software at the moment for this mouse that allows you to change the CPI or Lift Off Distance?


There is no software, because software isnt enthusiast.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@Ice009 I don't like the 3.0 shape. It's a shape that only works if your hand fits it perfectly. I much prefer shapes like the FK1 (but wider) that can be used by a much larger variety of hand shapes, sizes, and all 3 grips.

As you say, I use the 3.0 for the sensor ONLY. I dislike pretty much everything else. I prefer the 1 button on each side that the IM 1.1 has, so if I had to buy an MLT04 again I'd get the rubber coated 1.1.


----------



## Hackshot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> That smoothness test is really disturbing me, it used to be regarded as "not working" but the real problem is that no one seems to know exactly what it tests.
> What I can tell you is that my WMO scores higher than my G400 and since it's based on moving the mouse in circles I'd rather suppose it has something to do with circle drift/precision.
> In other words it really makes no sense to think it has something to do with responsiveness/ latency so please stop using it that way.
> 
> Before people start using it for circle testing.. the test is very surface dependent and on some it just wont give out any results.
> We don't know how it works, but empirical results are too inconsistent and vague, I propose we keep on treating it as bugged/useless as it has no known practical purpose
> (maybe it's supposed to be a surface tester).
> At least until someone finds out: 1) what it's for, 2) if it's working for that or not.
> Just please stop relating it to "smoothing".


AFAIK "Smoothness" in Enotus relates to how much the polling rate varies, it measures if the polling is "smooth".


----------



## FoxWolf1

I feel like people are making too big a fuss about the fact that it uses an OEM shell. Personally, all I care about is the performance of the product. The effort, expense, and "originality" that go into making the product do not matter. Only results matter.

This particular mouse is not suitable for me, but if they can shoehorn these components into a laptop size mouse shell, and thereby create something smaller and lighter than a Ninox Aurora and with a better sensor, I'd be very likely to get one.


----------



## espgodson

just received mine. without plugging it in i really like the shape but the buttons feel really cheap and when i held mouse 1 and mouse 2 the part under the mousewheel were rubbing together i think it was an issue with the mold cause i noticed there was a little bit of plastic and after pressing both buttons a lot it ended up going away. the lightness is fkin amazing <3 and i for one am glad that the left side with the texture isnt rubber cause i hate the rubber grips on the DA & rival. one thing about the mousewheel is i wish it was raised up a tiny bit. it feels like its almost flush to the buttons which is a bit weird.

gonna dm a bit with it but so far i like it the negatives aren't a deal breaker i do think the price point should be 49.99 though

edit: would like to point out that the shape is basically a 518 clone even the right side groove that feels somewhat uncomfortable but everyone whos ever used a 518 is used to xD. also its extreeeemllly light. love it


----------



## b0z0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> just received mine. without plugging it in i really like the shape but the buttons feel really cheap and when i held mouse 1 and mouse 2 the part under the mousewheel were rubbing together i think it was an issue with the mold cause i noticed there was a little bit of plastic and after pressing both buttons a lot it ended up going away. the lightness is fkin amazing <3 and i for one am glad that the left side with the texture isnt rubber cause i hate the rubber grips on the DA & rival. one thing about the mousewheel is i wish it was raised up a tiny bit. it feels like its almost flush to the buttons which is a bit weird.
> 
> gonna dm a bit with it but so far i like it the negatives aren't a deal breaker i do think the price point should be 49.99 though


Nice. I'm still switching between my FK1, Ec2 Evo, and my Kana v2 (Love how the weight, but the mouse wheel and LOD)


----------



## espgodson

after a few hundred kills i really like it the sides are pretty sweat inducing and i usually never have a problem with sweaty hands. my rifles are on point my awp took me a bit longer to get adjusted to cause i've been using ambi mice lately but with more time on the mouse i'll be fine (i'm a primary awper >.>) so far so good. sometimes i felt like the mouse2 was overly sensitive but could just be how i hold the mouse.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> There is no software, because software isnt enthusiast.


An enthusiast cares about performance and functionality to meet their use case. Being able to change the CPI in 50cpi increments and adjust the LOD are two things many enthusiasts would want because they have uses that will affect your performance in certain games. Being able to change the CPI is important in any game that uses a cursor e.g. RTS/MOBA and being able to adjust the LOD helps with mouse pad compatibility with certain surfaces such as glass where a low LOD means it won't track.

If you associate enthusiast with a lack of software then you aren't an enthusiast in the first place. People here need to learn that the world doesn't revolve around FPS games where being able to change CPI isn't as important because you can adjust in game sensitivity. With any gamer where you use a cursor you won't have this luxury because you no longer have 1:1 movement. The PMW-3310 has the ability to change CPI increments in 50cpi and if your mouse uses that sensor but doesn't have that capability then you've already failed at making an enthusiast mouse. Macros and other stuff can be done through other applications such as AHK but CPI and LOD can't.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FoxWolf1*
> 
> I feel like people are making too big a fuss about the fact that it uses an OEM shell. Personally, all I care about is the performance of the product. The effort, expense, and "originality" that go into making the product do not matter. Only results matter.
> 
> This particular mouse is not suitable for me, but if they can shoehorn these components into a laptop size mouse shell, and thereby create something smaller and lighter than a Ninox Aurora and with a better sensor, I'd be very likely to get one.


If this is possible then I'd be very happy.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> An enthusiast cares about performance and functionality to meet their use case. Being able to change the CPI in 50cpi increments and adjust the LOD are two things many enthusiasts would want because they have uses that will affect your performance in certain games. Being able to change the CPI is important in any game that uses a cursor e.g. RTS/MOBA and being able to adjust the LOD helps with mouse pad compatibility with certain surfaces such as glass where a low LOD means it won't track.
> 
> If you associate enthusiast with a lack of software then you aren't an enthusiast in the first place. People here need to learn that the world doesn't revolve around FPS games where being able to change CPI isn't as important because you can adjust in game sensitivity. With any gamer where you use a cursor you won't have this luxury because you no longer have 1:1 movement. The PMW-3310 has the ability to change CPI increments in 50cpi and if your mouse uses that sensor but doesn't have that capability then you've already failed at making an enthusiast mouse. Macros and other stuff can be done through other applications such as AHK but CPI and LOD can't.
> 
> If this is possible then I'd be very happy.


Woll3 was clearly being sarcastic.

Also you can change CPI via the QL accel driver too (as much a hassle as AHK)


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Woll3 was clearly being sarcastic.
> 
> Also you can change CPI via the QL accel driver too (as much a hassle as AHK)


Security risk of enabling test mode and using unsigned drivers. I didn't realise he was being sarcastic sorry.

@FinalmouseJude will you be releasing a tool to change CPI in 50cpi increments and adjust the Lift Off Distance?


----------



## thizito

Cant wait for:

SENSEI SHAPE 80g
G3 SHAPE
G9x/wmo
Any really good lightweight shape

Edit: oh, and 1000hz improvement soon.. It feels better regardless of max speeds


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> ....


Dreyka pls, also its not only Cursordriven games that profit, most casual games suck when it comes to sensitivity options and i can save myself the hassle to edit cfg´s, but yeah, not having software to config stuff is just being cheap.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Woll3 was clearly being sarcastic.
> 
> Also you can change CPI via the QL accel driver too (as much a hassle as AHK)


Doesnt work with Raw Input AFAIK?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FoxWolf1*
> 
> This particular mouse is not suitable for me, but if they can shoehorn these components into a laptop size mouse shell, and thereby create something smaller and lighter than a Ninox Aurora and with a better sensor, I'd be very likely to get one.


Woah.......... are you serious... even the aurora is too large for you? That mouse is frickin tiny!! It's smaller than the FK2 which is smaller than the FK1, which is a small mouse!!


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Woah.......... are you serious... even the aurora is too large for you? That mouse is frickin tiny!! It's smaller than the FK2 which is smaller than the FK1, which is a small mouse!!


You have giant hands.


----------



## FoxWolf1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Woah.......... are you serious... even the aurora is too large for you? That mouse is frickin tiny!! It's smaller than the FK2 which is smaller than the FK1, which is a small mouse!!


I'm used to even smaller mice, though...The Team Scorpion Zealot that I have with me at the moment is over 1cm shorter and around 7g lighter than the Aurora. The optical version of the same, the Zealot Jr., is a little heavier, but still smaller than the Aurora.

Before getting into higher end gear, I spent a long time (many years) with a Microsoft Basic Mouse that was around 4-5mm shorter than the Aurora, and also narrower. After using that for so long, I found that "normal sized" gaming mice all felt enormous and clumsy. I expect that I will probably be able to adjust to the Aurora well enough to achieve OK performance (assuming it ever arrives), but I find that I am most comfortable with a size class lower.


----------



## r0ach

I have 5 minutes in of testing the mouse so far, initial impression is good. It's quite a challenge to compare to other mice because a) I normally use 1000hz polling rate, and b) I normally use 800 DPI and the custom lens supposedly gives higher. The earlier post where someone claimed the 800 DPI step was something like 960 doesn't seem right to me though, it doesn't seem that fast, but that's just after 5 minutes of testing. I'll be posting a detailed review in another post, but first I'd like to get the answer to two questions from Finalmouse before proceeding:

1) Is there a possibility of a firmware flasher to change to 1000hz? Even if it's not even close to user ready and is a piece of pre-alpha software that might brick your PC, I'd like one for testing purposes alone to be able to more easily compare the sensor to other mice. I'll just flash it with a throwaway computer. A flasher to go back to 500hz would be useful as well.

2) Is there a website where I can order just a default 3310 lens to test mouse movement between it and the custom lens? If this is not feasible, will taking apart another 3310 mouse like an Avior 7000 work as a drop in replacement, or would the mouse have to be modified for it to work?

I'm more than capable of reviewing the mouse as is, but it would be nice to review with all variables as controlled as possible for more accurate comparison.


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Doesnt work with Raw Input AFAIK?


Of course it works with raw input. Also the guys crying about it being unsigned can blame Windows for requiring me to pay the $230 per year to sign drivers. I'm not paying to sign a driver I don't even use or care about so some privileged kids can stop crying about it.


----------



## thizito

You did a nice work pvh.. Who cares about it will remember, i loved using the controlable quake accel on tf2 for lonng timee


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Of course it works with raw input. Also the guys crying about it being unsigned can blame Windows for requiring me to pay the $230 per year to sign drivers. I'm not paying to sign a driver I don't even use or care about so some privileged kids can stop crying about it.


Well i stand corrected, tbh i never read up about it because its an "at home thing only", for the other matter, Kickstarter-Time?


----------



## povohat

I have no interest in using mouse acceleration or any of the features of the driver at the moment, which hinders my enthusiasm for working on it. I would not feel comfortable with people giving me money. The source for beta6 is still up, people can do whatever they want with it, including buying their own certificate and signing it for everyone. I feel like this is a bit of a derail, so I will leave it at that.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> Of course it works with raw input. Also the guys crying about it being unsigned can blame Windows for requiring me to pay the $230 per year to sign drivers. I'm not paying to sign a driver I don't even use or care about so some privileged kids can stop crying about it.


I don't ask you to pay to sign the driver and I was saying that in order to use the driver it opens you up to security risks. That is not your fault and you can't do anything about it. It simply should never be seen as acceptable on this forum for specific companies to not release a tool that allows you to adjust CPI or Lift Off Distance, on a mouse with a sensor capable of that functionality, under the pretense that there is an unofficial driver that can do it. I'm also not implying that anyone has said as such either. Also, thank you for taking the time and effort to create the driver.


----------



## r0ach

I'm delaying review on the mouse. Currently talking to them about possible alternative firmware.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> I'm delaying review on the mouse. Currently talking to them about possible alternative firmware.


Did they respond to the lens question, too?

I'd definitely want a lens that is capable of giving me a _*higher*_ LoD.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> Did they respond to the lens question, too?
> 
> I'd definitely want a lens that is capable of giving me a _*higher*_ LoD.


Well, the problem I'm having is the guy at Finalmouse doesn't seem to believe that people can reliably tell the difference in 500hz and 1000hz polling rate in a placebo test. For me personally, it's unbelievably easy to tell the difference in the two where most 500hz mice just feel repulsive in comparison, although some people prefer it. Out of the top 10 most knowledgable mouse people on the forum, probably Ino is the only one that would fail the test, at least from reading his posts where he doesn't seem to notice.

My effective mouse range is between 15cm on the fast side to 20cm/360 on the slow side and I use only 800 DPI 1000hz desktop. People who can't tell the difference must be using something absurd like 60-100cm/360 and 400 DPI desktop where every movement feels like you're dragging a dead body around.

Cursor movement is just much tighter at 1000hz to me, while being much looser and sloppy at 500hz. It feels slower and more controlled at 1000hz. If you use a system with all BIOS settings, Windows settings, and services on default, the cursor is going to feel sluggish, and the 500hz loose cursor feeling might help somewhat to alleviate that, but on any non-bogged down system, 500hz should probably feel bad in comparison.

It's hard to provide objective data to make any case between 500hz and 1000hz besides the blurbusters microstutter find and the 1 millisecond numerical difference. People tend to look only at the numerical difference and try to compare it to human reaction time of hundreds of milliseconds, but that does not tell the story at all.

A fast gaming monitor is 4ms real pixel g2g visual response time, but everyone knows that's a continuous, persistence variable and not a one time reaction event, so it can't be compared to human response time. Otherwise, you could add 20ms to that number and it shouldn't be noticeable in the context of human response time, but no, it looks like melting crayons to the human eye. Mice are the same way.


----------



## detto87

Yep, have to agree here.

Good comparison with the monitor example.

I'm waiting for a 1000Hz version too.


----------



## hslayer

so no 1000hz option and you can see another brand's name underneath the sticker (who knows if this is just bulk purchased mice from china and they just slapped their own sticker over it) but they are charging $70? LOL


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hslayer*
> 
> so no 1000hz option


It seems I got them to reconsider the option and supposedly they'll be working on it. The original Avior 7000 firmware was god awful at launch, only Metal and a few homeless people liked it. Fast forward to 3.38 test firmware and it's a completely different mouse that can compete with most anything out there. The Finalmouse initial firmware, even at 500hz, is a lot better than the Avior at launch, and has a bit more raw tracking than Avior 3310 sensor on 3.38 firmware, so waiting to see what happens with this mouse might be worth it.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Well, the problem I'm having is the guy at Finalmouse doesn't seem to believe that people can reliably tell the difference in 500hz and 1000hz polling rate in a placebo test. For me personally, it's unbelievably easy to tell the difference in the two where most 500hz mice just feel repulsive in comparison, although some people prefer it. Out of the top 10 most knowledgable mouse people on the forum, probably Ino is the only one that would fail the test, at least from reading his posts where he doesn't seem to notice.
> 
> My effective mouse range is between 15cm on the fast side to 20cm/360 on the slow side and I use only 800 DPI 1000hz desktop. People who can't tell the difference must be using something absurd like 60-100cm/360 and 400 DPI desktop where every movement feels like you're dragging a dead body around.
> 
> Cursor movement is just much tighter at 1000hz to me, while being much looser and sloppy at 500hz. It feels slower and more controlled at 1000hz. If you use a system with all BIOS settings, Windows settings, and services on default, the cursor is going to feel sluggish, and the 500hz loose cursor feeling might help somewhat to alleviate that, but on any non-bogged down system, 500hz should probably feel bad in comparison.
> 
> It's hard to provide objective data to make any case between 500hz and 1000hz besides the blurbusters microstutter find and the 1 millisecond numerical difference. People tend to look only at the numerical difference and try to compare it to human reaction time of hundreds of milliseconds, but that does not tell the story at all.
> 
> A fast gaming monitor is 4ms real pixel g2g visual response time, but everyone knows that's a continuous, persistence variable and not a one time reaction event, so it can't be compared to human response time. Otherwise, you could add 20ms to that number and it shouldn't be noticeable in the context of human response time, but no, it looks like melting crayons to the human eye. Mice are the same way.


How can you believe to find an objectively optimal setting for anything when everything seems to influence your feeling of the cursor? I mean, if even the keyboard makes a difference then everyone is likely to experience every mouse differently than the next person on another system.

That's why I refrain from calling one cursor feeling better than the other.

Also depending on the mice the difference between 500 and 1000 Hz is either severe or hardly there, mainly because of unstable polling rates.

The only mice that I used with 500 Hz on purpose were the old Zowies with the A3090 where 1000 Hz would limit the PCS and 500 Hz setting would jump to 1000 Hz at times anyway.

So in a blind test it would highly depend on the system and the mouse used. But please, do a blind test with mice you never used to see if you feel the difference between 500 and 1000 Hz alone.
Btw 60 cm/360 is easy once you learn to use more muscles than just your wrist.


----------



## ClickTap

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Out of the top 10 most knowledgable mouse people on the forum, probably Ino is the only one that would fail the test, at least from reading his posts where he doesn't seem to notice.


Name the top 10 most knowledgeable mouse people on this forum.


----------



## pr0l4nd

is it beta of finalmouse on amazon or final version?


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Well, the problem I'm having is the guy at Finalmouse doesn't seem to believe that people can reliably tell the difference in 500hz and 1000hz polling rate in a placebo test. For me personally, it's unbelievably easy to tell the difference in the two where most 500hz mice just feel repulsive in comparison, although some people prefer it. Out of the top 10 most knowledgable mouse people on the forum, probably Ino is the only one that would fail the test, at least from reading his posts where he doesn't seem to notice.
> 
> My effective mouse range is between 15cm on the fast side to 20cm/360 on the slow side and I use only 800 DPI 1000hz desktop. People who can't tell the difference must be using something absurd like 60-100cm/360 and 400 DPI desktop where every movement feels like you're dragging a dead body around.
> 
> Cursor movement is just much tighter at 1000hz to me, while being much looser and sloppy at 500hz. It feels slower and more controlled at 1000hz. If you use a system with all BIOS settings, Windows settings, and services on default, the cursor is going to feel sluggish, and the 500hz loose cursor feeling might help somewhat to alleviate that, but on any non-bogged down system, 500hz should probably feel bad in comparison.
> 
> It's hard to provide objective data to make any case between 500hz and 1000hz besides the blurbusters microstutter find and the 1 millisecond numerical difference. People tend to look only at the numerical difference and try to compare it to human reaction time of hundreds of milliseconds, but that does not tell the story at all.
> 
> A fast gaming monitor is 4ms real pixel g2g visual response time, but everyone knows that's a continuous, persistence variable and not a one time reaction event, so it can't be compared to human response time. Otherwise, you could add 20ms to that number and it shouldn't be noticeable in the context of human response time, but no, it looks like melting crayons to the human eye. Mice are the same way.


Thanks for elaborating on 1000Hz.
But you didn't respond to my question re. the lens.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> It seems I got them to reconsider the option and supposedly they'll be working on it. The original Avior 7000 firmware was god awful at launch, only Metal and a few homeless people liked it. Fast forward to 3.38 test firmware and it's a completely different mouse that can compete with most anything out there. The Finalmouse initial firmware, even at 500hz, is a lot better than the Avior at launch, and has a bit more raw tracking than Avior 3310 sensor on 3.38 firmware, so waiting to see what happens with this mouse might be worth it.


125Hz = 8ms

500Hz = 2ms

1000Hz = 1ms

2000Hz = 0.5ms

I seriously doubt you could tell the difference between 500Hz and 1000Hz when the difference is only 1ms. Luckily it's something that is quite easy to test through a blind ABX test. Have three mice. A is 500Hz. B is 1000Hz. You then have to decide if X is either at 500Hz or 1000Hz. Do this a number of times and see if you do any better than guessing (50% success rate).


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> 125Hz = 8ms
> 
> 500Hz = 2ms
> 
> 1000Hz = 1ms
> 
> 2000Hz = 0.5ms
> 
> I seriously doubt you could tell the difference between 500Hz and 1000Hz when the difference is only 1ms. Luckily it's something that is quite easy to test through a blind ABX test. Have three mice. A is 500Hz. B is 1000Hz. You then have to decide if X is either at 500Hz or 1000Hz.


you can notice it cursor behavior and feeling is definitely noticeable epically in games like counterstrike you can feel the cursor being less responsive and sluggish with a 144 hertz screen on lightboost it's probably even more noticeable then on a normal LCD monitor with 60 hertz.


----------



## trhead

When you play Quakeworld at 1000+ fps its very easy to SEE the difference between 500 and 1000hz polling rate. I would pass a blind test easily. In modern games I'm not so sure. If you play single player games at 60fps its probably hard to see.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

CS is arround 300 fps but fluctuates and their its noticable.


----------



## Jonagold

I want to remind you that one important delay factor is the mouse button: http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison

The only reason why I just can't use Zowie mice..


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I want to remind you that one important delay factor is the mouse button: http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison
> 
> The only reason why I just can't use Zowie mice..


I would say this is far from 'the only important delay factor,' but I did test this mouse and it's about dead on with Logitech mice in my findings.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> I would say this is far from 'the only important delay factor,' but I did test this mouse and it's about dead on with Logitech mice in my findings.


I never called it "the only important delay factor" I said "one important factor".. But nice to hear if it has low button latency as well.. What do you mean by "dead on"? under 3ms difference for Logitech mouse?


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I never called it "the only important delay factor" I said "one important factor".. But nice to hear if it has low button latency as well.. What do you mean by "dead on"? under 3ms difference for Logitech mouse?


Less, actually. Around ~0.2. Again, I know this isn't the most conclusive and scientific means of testing, but I don't know another way I have available to me (if there is one let me know), but here's the results.

A. G100s B. Finalmouse 2015








A. Finalmouse 2015 B. Logitech G100s


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> Less, actually. Around ~0.2. Again, I know this isn't the most conclusive and scientific means of testing, but I don't know another way I have available to me (if there is one let me know), but here's the results.
> 
> A. G100s B. Finalmouse 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A. Finalmouse 2015 B. Logitech G100s


Thanks for providing your results. It looks like their factory did a good job when it comes to click latency.


----------



## Jonagold

I would really like to get my hands on that mouse







.. Being hc csgo player and a mouse enthusiast trying to find the "perfect one"..







edit. Also waiting if they will add 1000hz.. It would make it potentially a perfect mouse. I am gonna wait a bit and see what happens before buying. Other thing that concerns me is the shape of the mouse under your thumb, there is some edge there that might disturb you when holding the mouse with palm grip..


----------



## Moosiemayne

Well, I'm sold. If they honor their warranty, this seems pretty awesome, regardless of build quality.. If it performs well and I'm comfortable, that's all I really need, everything else is just fluff. I'm excited to see what else they come up with.


----------



## dontspamme

When is this mouse coming to Europe?


----------



## kicksome

Think i'll order one of these today, it ticks all the right boxes for what im looking for in a mouse
Edit: Comes out to be $93 Australian, might just wait on this one for a bit, that's a little steep


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ClickTap*
> 
> Name the top 10 most knowledgeable mouse people on this forum.


I'm more interested in his list of "homeless" people. Calling people homeless lol







He proves once again that he has some serious problems


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> I'm more interested in his list of "homeless" people. Calling people homeless lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He proves once again that he has some serious problems


This is the same "c0dy" from the Avior swamp cursor thread saying there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the original firmware. When it turns out he was wrong, he crawls back to the hole he came from never to be seen again till now when he pulls the same routine again.

edit: Anyway, I'm waiting to see if there's going to be a 1000hz firmware or not for this mouse yet before I do the review because not having 1000hz is a deal breaker for a large amount of people reading this thread.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> This is the same "c0dy" from the Avior swamp cursor thread saying there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the original firmware. When it turns out he was wrong, he crawls back to the hole he came from never to be seen again till now when he pulls the same routine again.
> 
> edit: Anyway, I'm waiting to see if there's going to be a 1000hz firmware or not for this mouse yet before I do the review because not having 1000hz is a deal breaker for a large amount of people reading this thread.


Woah woah woah there man.. you be using one of those nifty PCI-e sound cards now? - what about the bad voodoo on them?!

the windows update driver has all the crap enabled by default, how do you live with the massive amounts of extra bass, virtual surround, and messed up microphone?!


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> This is the same "c0dy" from the Avior swamp cursor thread saying there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the original firmware. When it turns out he was wrong, he crawls back to the hole he came from never to be seen again till now when he pulls the same routine again.
> 
> edit: Anyway, I'm waiting to see if there's going to be a 1000hz firmware or not for this mouse yet before I do the review because not having 1000hz is a deal breaker for a large amount of people reading this thread.


Yeah, I have been crawling far to deep into the hole







It's not like I have asked you for your evidence/ more facts and such and you simply ignored it. So there is your " he crawls back to the hole he came from never to be seen again till now when he pulls the same routine again." So you want me to spam the thread next time? To keep on asking you about answers?

I've been around the whole time. There is just no need to write 24/7 or spam with stupid threads like yours, that you can not even name properly.









Keep on calling people "homeless" which do not agree with your feels/opinions







lol. Grow up dude


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> It's not like I have asked you for your evidence/ more facts and such and you simply ignored it.


You pretend like this is some little thing to do that's not even a minor inconvenience. Companies like Steelseries themselves probably don't even have equipment to properly test these variables like smoothing, click latency, etc. Providing objective data on mice requires large amounts of time and money, and since I am not your servant or employee, demanding that I expend those resources to make you happy is pretty ridiculous. If you don't believe what I say, then you, yourself can go buy the equipment and spend the time testing it.

There are also factors such as movement correction that's done at real time, or so close to it without easily noticeable smoothing like on the G502, that what exactly are you going to measure to provide any objective results to "prove" if the cursor feels right or not? That's going to be entirely subjective because you can still easily screw up cursor control without introducing huge cursor lag. There is no one size fits all mouse benchmark.

Another example, G402 vs G302, both use the same sensor, both have low latency, yet the tracking is insanely different between the two mice and the difference isn't going to be uncovered with measuring latency. The gyroscope most likely negatively affects movement on the G402 even when operating under malfunction speed, while the mouse otherwise has very little or no movement correction. The G302 on the other hand, has no gyroscope, but seems to have much higher levels of movement correction. They managed to somewhat screw up both mice in completely different ways that aren't going to be uncovered by probably any test you can devise.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> You pretend like this is some little thing to do that's not even a minor inconvenience. Companies like Steelseries themselves probably don't even have equipment to properly test these variables like smoothing, click latency, etc. Providing objective data on mice requires large amounts of time and money, and since I am not your servant or employee, demanding that I expend those resources to make you happy is pretty ridiculous. If you don't believe what I say, then you, yourself can go buy the equipment and spend the time testing it.
> 
> There are also factors such as movement correction that's done at real time, or so close to it without easily noticeable smoothing like on the G502, that what exactly are you going to measure to provide any objective results to "prove" if the cursor feels right or not? That's going to be entirely subjective because you can still easily screw up cursor control without introducing huge cursor lag. There is no one size fits all mouse benchmark.
> 
> Another example, G402 vs G302, both use the same sensor, both have low latency, yet the tracking is insanely different between the two mice and the difference isn't going to be uncovered with measuring latency. The gyroscope most likely negatively affects movement on the G402 even when operating under malfunction speed, while the mouse otherwise has very little or no movement correction. The G302 on the other hand, has no gyroscope, but seems to have much higher levels of movement correction. They managed to somewhat screw up both mice in completely different ways that aren't going to be uncovered by probably any test you can devise.


They gyro/accelerometer isn't being used to measured distance when the AM010 is functioning. The gyro/accelerometer starts reporting distance moved once the AM010 fails at speeds above 2.7m/s. You fail to account for other factors such as shape and weight that will affect how you perceive responsiveness. Considering how paranoid you are about small things affecting responsiveness I can easily say that there is a high probability that differences you feel are not real but are perceived due to unconscious bias.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> This is the same "c0dy" from the Avior swamp cursor thread saying there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the original firmware. When it turns out he was wrong, he crawls back to the hole he came from never to be seen again till now when he pulls the same routine again.
> 
> edit: Anyway, I'm waiting to see if there's going to be a 1000hz firmware or not for this mouse yet before I do the review because not having 1000hz is a deal breaker for a large amount of people reading this thread.


Even you are able to spot lower levels of smoothing it doesn't mean that everything you spot is real. You're subject to unconscious bias like everyone else.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> They gyro/accelerometer isn't being used to measured distance when the AM010 is functioning. The gyro/accelerometer starts reporting distance moved once the AM010 fails at speeds above 2.7m/s. You fail to account for other factors such as shape and weight that will affect how you perceive responsiveness. Considering how paranoid you are about small things affecting responsiveness I can easily say that there is a high probability that differences you feel are not real but are perceived due to unconscious bias.


That's like claiming installing an overclocking program like Afterburner can have no effect on your computer while running at default clocks. The gyroscope HAS to interface with the firmware of the mouse and it's normal, optical sensor somehow and with some kind of overhead in order to do a hand off. It's not a magical device with no side effects. All of your posts pretend that companies like Logitech are run by geniuses that will also spend infinite amounts of money on the best electronics to avoid any possible issues. They aren't geniuses and can make bad design decisions, and they use very cheap electronic components like every mouse company

If Logitech engineers were the gods you think they were, they would not be selling 1000hz keyboards right now when that polling rate is nothing but detrimental to a gaming PC.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> That's like claiming installing an overclocking program like Afterburner can have no effect on your computer while running at default clocks. The gyroscope HAS to interface with the firmware of the mouse and it's normal, optical sensor somehow and with some kind of overhead in order to do a hand off. It's not a magical device with no side effects. All of your posts pretend that companies like Logitech are run by geniuses that will also spend infinite amounts of money on the best electronics to avoid any possible issues. They aren't geniuses and can make bad design decisions, and they use very cheap electronic components like every mouse company
> 
> If Logitech engineers were the gods you think they were, they would not be selling 1000hz keyboards right now when that polling rate is nothing but detrimental to a gaming PC.


So you don't know how it works and you're the only one who has noticed the phantom lag on the G402 even though Logitech has tested with many professional players who didn't notice anything unusual.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> So you don't know how it works and you're the only one who has noticed the phantom lag on the G402 even though Logitech has tested with many professional players who didn't notice anything unusual.


I don't know about any lags but I have not iced that g402 has the same bug than g100s.. Sometimes when you make a quick rotation from left to right or right to left the sensor keeps tracking for different direction.. e.g. moving mouse to left and then turning fast to right, mouse keeps moving left at the same speed as I turn it to right until i stop movement and start a new one..


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I don't know about any lags but I have not iced that g402 has the same bug than g100s.. *Sometimes when you make a quick rotation from left to right or right to left the sensor keeps tracking for different direction*.. e.g. moving mouse to left and then turning fast to right, mouse keeps moving left at the same speed as I turn it to right until i stop movement and start a new one..


My g302 does this too! Happend to me yesterday 4-5 times in a ~2hour game session.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I don't know about any lags but I have not iced that g402 has the same bug than g100s.. Sometimes when you make a quick rotation from left to right or right to left the sensor keeps tracking for different direction.. e.g. moving mouse to left and then turning fast to right, mouse keeps moving left at the same speed as I turn it to right until i stop movement and start a new one..


LOL!


----------



## Clyq

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I don't know about any lags but I have not iced that g402 has the same bug than g100s.. Sometimes when you make a quick rotation from left to right or right to left the sensor keeps tracking for different direction.. e.g. moving mouse to left and then turning fast to right, mouse keeps moving left at the same speed as I turn it to right until i stop movement and start a new one..


Install the software, make sure fusion engine is running.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> So you don't know how it works and you're the only one who has noticed the phantom lag on the G402 even though Logitech has tested with many professional players who didn't notice anything unusual.


Where did I say g402 has "phantom lag"? What are you even talking about? I said that I could tell a difference between switching gyroscope on and off with the LGS software open. I think one of the people that tested this Finalmouse, "m0e" said the same thing. That was on the original G402 firmware, not sure if the newer firmware makes a difference in that regard. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal to request that they let you disable the gyroscope and uninstall the driver, but they won't comment on it at all.

Mice are becoming a real freakshow lately considering this finalmouse using a 3310 sensor feels like it has less movement correction than a G302 using an AM010. Like I said, G302 and G402 track nothing alike at all.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> So you don't know how it works and you're the only one who has noticed the phantom lag on the G402 even though Logitech has tested with many professional players who didn't notice anything unusual.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I say g402 has "phantom lag"? What are you even talking about? I said that I could tell a difference between switching gyroscope on and off with the LGS software open. I think one of the people that tested this Finalmouse, "m0e" said the same thing. That was on the original G402 firmware, not sure if the newer firmware makes a difference in that regard. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal to request that they let you disable the gyroscope and uninstall the driver, but they won't comment on it at all.
> 
> Mice are becoming a real freakshow lately considering this finalmouse using a 3310 sensor feels like it has less movement correction than a G302 using an AM010. Like I said, G302 and G402 track nothing alike at all.
Click to expand...

What mouse are you even using now?
Feels like all mice are trash atm if you go deep down on small things.


----------



## thizito

Kana v2 smoothed:X


----------



## ClickTap

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> So you don't know how it works and you're the only one who has noticed the phantom lag on the G402 even though Logitech has tested with many professional players who didn't notice anything unusual.


Professional players aren't actually the benchmark though. Obviously roach is.
Well in all seriousness, remember that alot of pros were still using "flawed" sensors like the Kinzu v1.
Pros aren't really as sensitive to this stuff as you might expect.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ClickTap*
> 
> Professional players aren't actually the benchmark though. Obviously roach is.
> Well in all seriousness, remember that alot of pros were still using "flawed" sensors like the Kinzu v1.
> Pros aren't really as sensitive to this stuff as you might expect.


It's almost like you made a joke, but then realised that it wasn't funny.


----------



## ClickTap

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> It's almost like you made a joke, but then realised that it wasn't funny.


It's almost like you said I wasn't funny


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clyq*
> 
> Install the software, make sure fusion engine is running.


I had it all running on both g402 and g100s.. Most of people just can't move out as many g's when playing I suppose..


----------



## Maximillion

This mouse has quietly become a daily driver of mine. The low weight combined with the responsiveness/performance of the sensor is unbeatable for me atm. While my Avior on 3.38 firmware is every bit as snappy, actually moving the mouse around feels borderline cumbersome switching back and forth between the two. This mouse is unique in that it sports such a great sensor but is in a weight class dominated by ambi mice.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thizito*
> 
> Kana v2 smoothed:X


Wait is r0ach really using a kana v2?
That seems very unlikley and hillarious if it were true.


----------



## Torongo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Wait is r0ach really using a kana v2?
> That seems very unlikley and hillarious if it were true.


He said that with the last firmware update smoothing was, surprisingly, gone.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Torongo*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Wait is r0ach really using a kana v2?
> That seems very unlikley and hillarious if it were true.
> 
> 
> 
> He said that with the last firmware update smoothing was, surprisingly, gone.
Click to expand...

R0ach is one funny object.
He complains that everything is garbage then uses it himself.
Did not matter all 3090 mice were garbage and used by garbage players.
And now just the kana v2 made the smoothing go poof (which nah smoothing is still there, same with all 3090 mice)


----------



## Maximillion

From what I remember he was alternating between the v2 and G502 but ultimately prefers the shape/weight of the Kana. He's talked about how much he likes the 3600 DPI G400 as well, but dislikes the shape. If you think about it, the Kana v2 is one of the few mice that has a non-alien shape, low weight and can run at a native 800 DPI/1000hz (plus alleged smoothing fix via update) so it makes sense in that context.

But to kinda steer back on topic, if the FinalMouse guys do manage to get this mouse running a stable 1000hz I don't see why it wouldn't be a viable option for him or the other users here that are more interested in the particulars.


----------



## Dreyka

So, FinalMouse has done a Zowie because it means they can cheap out by not having to create a simple tool to change CPI and LOD whilst still charging a premium price. We've had years of the A9500 and A9800 dominating the market and now when we finally get a good "optical" sensor, that has the advantages that the A9500/9800 had such as changeable CPI in small increments (50cpi) and adjustable LOD in small increments, but we're getting screwed over by pseudo-minimalist mice based upon a false compromise. Except this time it wasn't because of the ignorant mass market who believe Higher DPI = better. This time it's because of an internal counter-culture of people that have been just as ignorant and corrosive to this industry.

You can keep the experience of being able to change CPI, LOD and polling rate without software whilst also having software for those who want to change the CPI and LOD from the default settings. The sensor has the capability so how the hell can you call yourself a business that cares about pro gamers when you have that useful functionality locked out. It's effectively FPS gamers screwing over everyone else because they can just adjust in game sensitivity whereas for MOBAs, RTS and even general desktop usage is getting screwed because the only way for them to adjust sensitivity is to change CPI on the mouse.


----------



## pox02

SO fk1 and finelmouse its the same?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pox02*
> 
> SO fk1 and finelmouse its the same?


According to test results of an individual here in this thread, Finalmouse has no mouse button delay where FK1 has a lot of it, over 20ms..


----------



## pox02

ok i will buy it soon


----------



## Jonagold

I am seriously considering of buying this mouse but I want to be sure that the shape fits my hand.. My hand is 18cm long from palm to the tip of my middle finger, would I be able to comfortably palm grip this Finalmouse 2015 without fingers touching the mousemat? Right side of the mouse seems little questionable, where can you rest your ring finger? If you put it on the side of the mouse, the little finger easily touches the mat..


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I am seriously considering of buying this mouse but I want to be sure that the shape fits my hand.. My hand is 18cm long from palm to the tip of my middle finger, would I be able to comfortably palm grip this Finalmouse 2015 without fingers touching the mousemat? Right side of the mouse seems little questionable, where can you rest your ring finger? If you put it on the side of the mouse, the little finger easily touches the mat..


My hand is about 21cm and I don't have problems with my hand touching the mousemat in a palm grip if my ring finger rests on the corner/top of the mouse off to the side of the rmb. If I try to put it on the side then it forces my pinkie into the mat, so there's not enough room for the two fingers for me.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> You can keep the experience of being able to change CPI, LOD and polling rate without software whilst also having software for those who want to change the CPI and LOD from the default settings. The sensor has the capability so how the hell can you call yourself a business that cares about pro gamers when you have that useful functionality locked out. It's effectively FPS gamers screwing over everyone else because they can just adjust in game sensitivity whereas for MOBAs, RTS and even general desktop usage is getting screwed because the only way for them to adjust sensitivity is to change CPI on the mouse.


Ok, I agree.

Driverless was being pushed for FPS gamers who went to LANs and couldn't install software there.

Not sure how much it would increase the cost of the mouse to do it your way though.


----------



## Arc0s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ok, I agree.
> 
> Driverless was being pushed for FPS gamers who went to LANs and couldn't install software there.
> 
> Not sure how much it would increase the cost of the mouse to do it your way though.


Well Zowie mice still sell for a pretty high cost compared to other companies, is not like they're selling their mice super cheap; even the final mouse is selling for almost $70 on Amazon.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: MaximilianKohler



Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler* 

Ok, I agree.

Driverless was being pushed for FPS gamers who went to LANs and couldn't install software there.

Not sure how much it would increase the cost of the mouse to do it your way though.



Zowie mice are expensive already at $50. Ninox managed to make a good mouse with software when selling a mice at $30 and Zowie sells more mice than Ninox. Zowie is setting a very bad precedent for this industry and I don't want the industry to go backwards because it's considered acceptable to lock out sensor functionality due to their desire to save costs by not releasing a tool that gives full access to sensor functionality. The savings don't even get passed on to the consumers anyway. Others also need to be voicing their displeasure with these practices because if they don't then everyone is going to be worse off.

It should be standard that polling rate, CPI and LOD can be changed on the mouse without software like Zowie does. It should also be standard that software is provided that gives full access to sensor functionality. Anyone who doesn't support this is effectively making the industry worse for others. We're enthusiasts so this is the stuff we should care about.

Frankly, if you don't give full access to sensor functionality then you're not making mice for pro gamers. It's as bad as sticking an A9800 sensor in your mice. If people don't start complaining then nothing will change and ultimately we lose out.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Zowie mice are expensive already at $50. Ninox managed to make a good mouse with software when selling a mice at $30 and Zowie sells more mice than Ninox. Zowie is setting a very bad precedent for this industry and I don't want the industry to go backwards because it's considered acceptable to lock out sensor functionality due to their desire to save costs by not releasing a tool that gives full access to sensor functionality. The savings don't even get passed on to the consumers anyway. Others also need to be voicing their displeasure with these practices because if they don't then everyone is going to be worse off.
> 
> It should be standard that polling rate, CPI and LOD can be changed on the mouse without software like Zowie does. It should also be standard that software is provided that gives full access to sensor functionality. Anyone who doesn't support this is effectively making the industry worse for others. We're enthusiasts so this is the stuff we should care about.
> 
> Frankly, if you don't give full access to sensor functionality then you're not making mice for pro gamers. It's as bad as sticking an A9800 sensor in your mice. If people don't start complaining then nothing will change and ultimately we lose out.


If only Ninox was 30$







Its 60$ to get it to Sweden.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> If only Ninox was 30$
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its 60$ to get it to Sweden.


That's pretty expensive but most of that is shipping which isn't a fair comparison. It's £30 in the UK when Zowie is £50.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> If only Ninox was 30$
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its 60$ to get it to Sweden.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty expensive but most of that is shipping which isn't a fair comparison. It's £30 in the UK when Zowie is £50.
Click to expand...

Well yeah








The FK1 is more expensive in UK then Sweden at least








35-40£ for the fk1 here.

Massdrop was way cheaper even with shipping from US to Sweden, but they declare to customs so would end up much more expensive in the end.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well yeah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The FK1 is more expensive in UK then Sweden at least
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 35-40£ for the fk1 here.
> 
> Massdrop was way cheaper even with shipping from US to Sweden, but they declare to customs so would end up much more expensive in the end.


Depends how thorough customs is in your country. I know that in the UK customs pay more attention to items marked for priority/express delivery than they do for economy services.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well yeah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The FK1 is more expensive in UK then Sweden at least
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 35-40£ for the fk1 here.
> 
> Massdrop was way cheaper even with shipping from US to Sweden, but they declare to customs so would end up much more expensive in the end.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends how thorough customs is in your country. I know that in the UK customs pay more attention to items marked for priority/express delivery than they do for economy services.
Click to expand...

They declare the value for custom and they ship with UPS = It will get caught in customs 100% sadly.


----------



## Elrick

I am hoping that the guys at FinalMouse will finally let their product go to MassDrop because currently relying ONLY on Amazon to push their mouse is so ******ed







.

Put it on MassDrop and I bet they move a hundred or more quite easily, makes you wonder who runs a company selling through ONE outlet only these days......


----------



## Derp

Any news on that 1000Hz firmware? Ambidextrous version?

Also maybe take ~$15 off the price? I don't give a crap about the shell being ODM just like the Aurora but the price should reflect it. At $67 this is the most expensive 3310 mouse out there.


----------



## mrvirtualboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Where did I say g402 has "phantom lag"? What are you even talking about? I said that I could tell a difference between switching gyroscope on and off with the LGS software open. I think one of the people that tested this Finalmouse, "m0e" said the same thing. That was on the original G402 firmware, not sure if the newer firmware makes a difference in that regard. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal to request that they let you disable the gyroscope and uninstall the driver, but they won't comment on it at all.
> 
> Mice are becoming a real freakshow lately considering this finalmouse using a 3310 sensor feels like it has less movement correction than a G302 using an AM010. Like I said, G302 and G402 track nothing alike at all.


So just out of curiosity, how would you rate this mouse compared to the MLT04? I'm not so sure I believe in all the "mystical electronic voodoo," because most mice (with some exceptions) tend to feel very similar to me, with very slight and negligible differences setting them apart. Maybe I can't feel it because I run on a default Windows installation without any of the optimizations you recommend put into place and that masks the differences. Do the optimizations make differences in mice more noticeable to you?


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> I am hoping that the guys at FinalMouse will finally let their product go to MassDrop because currently relying ONLY on Amazon to push their mouse is so ******ed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Put it on MassDrop and I bet they move a hundred or more quite easily, makes you wonder who runs a company selling through ONE outlet only these days......


I think you're missing the fact that this mouse isn't even intended to be being bought right now. Somewhere in this thread Jude said the mouse was around '3 weeks from initial release.' No one was intended to know about it at this point still, one streamer just accidentally let the name slip after getting a promotional product. Amazon was being used as a way to give out the promotional/test units using coupon codes.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> Amazon was being used as a way to give out the promotional/test units using coupon codes.


Damn, .....didn't know that







.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Damn, .....didn't know that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Yeah, so hopefully they have other options planned, because limiting it to Amazon would be pretty absurd.


----------



## iceskeleton

This seems ok as their first launch. But I wouldn't buy it since I like ambi mice nowadays. A low weight one (with nice cable, 1000hz, low click latency, omron switches) will give zowie a run for their money.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iceskeleton*
> 
> This seems ok as their first launch. But I wouldn't buy it since I like ambi mice nowadays. A low weight one (with nice cable, 1000hz, low click latency, omron switches) will give zowie a run for their money.


Zowie mice and low click latency, nope. Zowie mice has over 20ms click delay and they are also using huano -switches, not omron..


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Zowie mice and low click latency, nope. Zowie mice has over 20ms click delay and they are also using huano -switches, not omron..


I know that. I said if they (finalmouse) were to make a ambi mouse with those specifications it would give some competition to zowie's fk line.


----------



## end0rphine

@Finalmouse

You guys have to fix your left mouse button. Little rebound and a lot of pre-travel (enough for the button to wobble). Feels absolutely terrible. Look to the G302 for perfect clicks.


----------



## discoprince

in the almost 3 years now since i've been posting in this mouse forum i've never seen anyone, *EVER, EVER*, when talking about shapes, say that the Razer Imperator shape is the bomb.
the mouse has been disregarded as crap since Razer released it.

now this mouse comes out with the OEM Imperator shape and its supposed to deliver us from evil?

please









gl with this one folks.


----------



## Clyq

The imperator came with a dual sensor, I believe. I feel as though that mouse was disregarded the instant they went that route. You'll find every flaw once you've made up your mind about the sensor- at least in this community.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> in the almost 3 years now since i've been posting in this mouse forum i've never seen anyone, *EVER, EVER*, when talking about shapes, say that the Razer Imperator shape is the bomb.
> the mouse has been disregarded as crap since Razer released it.
> 
> now this mouse comes out with the OEM Imperator shape and its supposed to deliver us from evil?
> 
> please
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gl with this one folks.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clyq*
> 
> The imperator came with a dual sensor, I believe. I feel as though that mouse was disregarded the instant they went that route. You'll find every flaw once you've made up your mind about the sensor- at least in this community.


i mentioned the shape specifically because that's what these final mouse people used, whether or not the mouse was disregarded because of the sensor matters little (people still bought it).
of all the OEM shells they could have picked, why did they pick the imperator shell? there's no way they got feedback saying it was a good shape, its not.

users on this thread talk about shapes and bad sensor combos all the time, i've never once in my time here see anyone mention the imperator.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> i mentioned the shape specifically because that's what these final mouse people used, whether or not the mouse was disregarded because of the sensor matters little (people still bought it).
> of all the OEM shells they could have picked, why did they pick the imperator shell? there's no way they got feedback saying it was a good shape, its not.
> 
> users on this thread talk about shapes and bad sensor combos all the time, i've never once in my time here see anyone mention the imperator.


I think if you went back to the start of the thread I mention that I love the imperator shape, is like a small g400


----------



## Clyq

I meant the imperator was disregarded for its sensor, not the FM2015.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> i mentioned the shape specifically because that's what these final mouse people used, whether or not the mouse was disregarded because of the sensor matters little (people still bought it).
> of all the OEM shells they could have picked, why did they pick the imperator shell? there's no way they got feedback saying it was a good shape, its not.
> 
> users on this thread talk about shapes and bad sensor combos all the time, i've never once in my time here see anyone mention the imperator.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I haven't tested the sensor at all yet, but the shape isn't bad. It's better than the KPM shape & coating for sure.

Only thing I don't like is that you have to let go of your grip on the mouse in order to hit any of the side buttons. And like most other mice the scrollwheel is too far back to be used with your middle finger.


----------



## kicksome

so when is this meant to actually release? and will we see a price drop?


----------



## RyuLAN

I received mine yesterday-- I'm hoping to get a review posted today/tomorrow with my thoughts and possibly some video.

-Ryu


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuLAN*
> 
> I received mine yesterday-- I'm hoping to get a review posted today/tomorrow with my thoughts and possibly some video.
> 
> -Ryu


nice, keen to see what you think


----------



## a_ak57

I don't know if you're allowed to post a review, Ino posted a review topic but it was gone later. Maybe because the mouse ins't "officially out" (even though they clearly don't mind selling them







)?


----------



## RyuLAN

I plan to reach out to Jude here and via email

-Ryu


----------



## detto87

One can order it on Amazon.com but isn't allowed to post a review of it?

That's plain ridiculous.

If they don't want to hear negative reviews about it then release it when it is finished. Full stop.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> One can order it on Amazon.com but isn't allowed to post a review of it?
> 
> That's plain ridiculous.
> 
> If they don't want to hear negative reviews about it then release it when it is finished. Full stop.


Those who didn't receive a review unit can't post a review I think. Those who paid full price can write a review.


----------



## a_ak57

How would you have the mouse if you didn't buy it from amazon or receive a review unit? I doubt ino borrowed the mouse from a friend or something. Unless you're saying every purchase from amazon counts as a review unit, which I wouldn't really understand.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

if you are interest in buying it I would give you advise to first look at this one

http://www.amazon.com/Vktech%C2%AE-Motospeed-Optical-Adjustable-MOTOSPEED-V2/dp/B00MTK84U2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1420650599&sr=8-2&keywords=motospeed

same shell but: 17,99 (us dollar) you could buy 3 of them or 1 final mouse.

Maybe you could even buy 3 and sell them for 67,12 (us dollar)


----------



## Axaion

But is the Vktech motospeed-V7 not a mionix NAOS shape?

Wow.. mionix did the same! :O

Lets all hate on them, its only the external that matters, weight or internals has no meaning in a mouse









Not the shape for me regardless though.. but damn people, who cares where the shell is from if its good for those that uses it and the performance of the mouse is good too?

Oh noes its expensive - World first here, first expensive mouse in history.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> But is the Vktech motospeed-V7 not a mionix NAOS shape?
> 
> Wow.. mionix did the same! :O
> 
> Lets all hate on them, its only the external that matters, weight or internals has no meaning in a mouse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not the shape for me regardless though.. but damn people, who cares where the shell is from if its good for those that uses it and the performance of the mouse is good too?
> 
> Oh noes its expensive - World first here, first expensive mouse in history.


thats why I dont have a mionix aswell 

and see specs of moto first its not bad better then using a lens for a 3310 sensor wich will result in worse performance then the motospeed one.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Those who didn't receive a review unit can't post a review I think. Those who paid full price can write a review.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> How would you have the mouse if you didn't buy it from amazon or receive a review unit? I doubt ino borrowed the mouse from a friend or something. Unless you're saying every purchase from amazon counts as a review unit, which I wouldn't really understand.


To clear up the confusion, this is what I received via PM
Quote:


> Well sponsored build logs need to pay a sponsored fee, currently we do not have a similar program for reviews but we are looking into it and it should hopefully be finalized soon.
> 
> Unfortunately until the program is in place we cannot allow sponsored reviews to remain.


And as I got the mouse for review (i.e. for free) I am not allowed to post a review. There is nothing to worry about if you paid for it. I must say I don't understand that system, but rules are rules.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Wow.. mionix did the same! :O


"Certain Factory" made a Shell which is in use by Qpad(5.k., OM-75 etc.) or the EA Mouse for example.

Somebody made modifications to the shell for Mionix, idk who, but Mionix owns the Rights to that specific Design.

Motospeed copied the Design, not bought, just copied, they arent the same shells.

It is especially o.k. for a new Brand to use OEM Shell´s and Services, but there are several flaws and inconsistencies here which have already been mentioned.


----------



## RyuLAN

I just posted my review-- am I allowed to link it here or do I need to copy/pasta?

One of the mods PM'd me earlier to remove the links from my signature, and since this is the only area of the OC forums I post in, I don't exactly know all the rules









-Ryu


----------



## kicksome

Link it and see what happens, I'm keen to watch it


----------



## RyuLAN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Link it and see what happens, I'm keen to watch it


That seems like a trap LOL

-Ryu


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: Ino



Originally Posted by *Ino.* 

To clear up the confusion, this is what I received via PM
And as I got the mouse for review (i.e. for free) I am not allowed to post a review. There is nothing to worry about if you paid for it. I must say I don't understand that system, but rules are rules.



Perhaps it would be better to write reviews on a separate blog. Sponsored builds are nothing like product reviews at all anyway.



Spoiler: Quote: RyuLAN



Originally Posted by *RyuLAN* 

I just posted my review-- am I allowed to link it here or do I need to copy/pasta?

One of the mods PM'd me earlier to remove the links from my signature, and since this is the only area of the OC forums I post in, I don't exactly know all the rules









-Ryu



Post the review.


----------



## Jonagold

I was able to find it with google easily, no reason to link..


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuLAN*
> 
> I just posted my review-- am I allowed to link it here or do I need to copy/pasta?
> 
> One of the mods PM'd me earlier to remove the links from my signature, and since this is the only area of the OC forums I post in, I don't exactly know all the rules
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ryu


Curious: what mousepad do you use? Is it multicolored?

Also thanks for calling me a "mouse expert"


----------



## RyuLAN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Curious: what mousepad do you use? Is it multicolored?
> 
> Also thanks for calling me a "mouse expert"


It is, it's the CS:GO edition QcK+

You're welcome









-Ryu


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuLAN*
> 
> It is, it's the CS:GO edition QcK+
> 
> You're welcome
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ryu


Yeah, could maybe be a part of your issue? I've had no issues like the one you described and I've used both solid black and solid white pads with it.

-not Ryu


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I googled "ryu finalmouse review" and didn't come up with anything.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> if you are interest in buying it I would give you advise to first look at this one
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Vktech%C2%AE-Motospeed-Optical-Adjustable-MOTOSPEED-V2/dp/B00MTK84U2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1420650599&sr=8-2&keywords=motospeed
> 
> same shell but: 17,99 (us dollar) you could buy 3 of them or 1 final mouse.
> 
> Maybe you could even buy 3 and sell them for 67,12 (us dollar)


_" After the optimization of mouse body weight, it becomes 154g, is the best weight for gaming players."_

That means nothing to you?

It doesn't even say what sensor it has. Not to mention the implementation is what's important.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuLAN*
> 
> It is, it's the CS:GO edition QcK+
> 
> You're welcome
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ryu


Hey Ryu,

Just watched the video on your vlog. You have a broken mousewheel, and it is not even lighting up. This is not intended, please contact support for a replacement.

Also the sensor issue you are describing should not occur either. I would check a different surface and computer.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I googled "ryu finalmouse review" and didn't come up with anything.
> _" After the optimization of mouse body weight, it becomes 154g, is the best weight for gaming players."_
> 
> That means nothing to you?
> 
> It doesn't even say what sensor it has. Not to mention the implementation is what's important.


Just google 'RyuLAN'


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Your mousewheel is definitely broken.
Quote:


> Additionally, the other MAJOR issue I've experienced is that no less than a dozen times the sensor stopped tracking entirely (which has gotten me killed in CS:GO about 5 times). Testing it further, I've found this only happens after I have lifted the mouse and brought it back down on the mousepad surface (which is fairly often if you use your pad for big swipes and then recenter the mouse quickly).


OMG what a relief that someone else experienced this. I did feel at times like the mouse simply stopped responding but wasn't sure what was causing it and thought it might just be due to low LOD.

I agree that the build quality and button clicks are nice.


----------



## RyuLAN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Ryu,
> 
> Just watched the video on your vlog. You have a broken mousewheel, and it is not even lighting up. This is not intended, please contact support for a replacement.
> 
> Also the sensor issue you are describing should not occur either. I would check a different surface and computer.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Yep, already did (and wrote about it on that review







)

Also I tested it out on a regular BLACK QcK Heavy, and it had the same issue, so I think mine is just busted. Looking forward to getting the replacement tomorrow.

-Ryu


----------



## kicksome

@FinalmouseJude just wondering when you were planning on officially launching the mouse? Just wondering if I should hold off and buy through your website or go with amazon


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude just wondering when you were planning on officially launching the mouse? Just wondering if I should hold off and buy through your website or go with amazon


I'm hoping if he really wants to sell all the mice made at their factory, he would then put it on Massdrop - guaranteed to sell in the hundreds







.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> I'm hoping if he really wants to sell all the mice made at their factory, he would then put it on Massdrop - guaranteed to sell in the hundreds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Yep, never underestimate the stupidity of the massdrop community. Even if the mouse was still $60 idiots would still buy it.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> How would you have the mouse if you didn't buy it from amazon or receive a review unit? I doubt ino borrowed the mouse from a friend or something. Unless you're saying every purchase from amazon counts as a review unit, which I wouldn't really understand.


Receiving a review unit means getting it for free. Purchasing the mouse means putting money forward in exchange for the good. If you get it for free, you're bound by their embargo schedule or whatever the agreement stipulates. If you buy it with your money, you can do whatever you want.

@FinalmouseJude

What changes are you making to the mouse between now and release?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Hmm, I'm not sure what to do about this.

I'm not sure if the problem with the sensor not responding when making micro lifts during gameplay is the only thing throwing me off, but there is something really wrong with the sensor. It seems like it's more than just that, but I can't be sure till I use one that doesn't have that problem.

I measured for acceleration by going ingame, placing the crosshair on a point then moving slowly from 1 side of the mousepad to the other, and then did it fast, and it pretty much landed on the same point each time.

It seems a little unfair to post a review (which would say the mouse is pretty much unusable) since it's technically still in the testing phase and hasn't been released. It's possible if they fix that one problem it could be a great mouse.

But at the same time I don't really want to return the mouse now and then buy it again later whenever they fix the problem. I'm not sure there's a better option though. Since it had free shipping I won't lose any money.

Either way I'll post my thoughts here and hold off on a video review.

================================================

450dpi, even though in box it says 400, 800, 1600, 3200

Build quality is good, buttons feel nice. Can't click the side buttons without releasing my grip on the mouse (bad). Scroll wheel too far back to scroll with middle finger.

The shape is pretty "meh". It's useable in all 3 grips because of its low weight, and doesn't have any major flaws (besides the unreachable side buttons), but it's certainly inferior to something like a larger aurora or wider FK1.

No accidental scrolls when clicking the wheel but it's still too hard to press. It's really hard to double click it.

Couldn't make it malfunction even though it only got 3.8m/s compared to the aurora's 3m/s in enotus (and the aurora was malfunctioning way worse than my 3.0).

Glossy side = good for dry hands, bad for sweaty.

You don't get the full benefits of the 3310 sensor since there is no way to change the dpi in increments of 50.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Hmm, I'm not sure what to do about this.
> 
> sensor not responding when making micro lifts during gameplay is the only thing throwing me off .


Hello MaximillianKohler,

Since seeing the two instances of this occurring we have been trying to replicate the issue. So far out of roughly 60 initial units we have gotten 2 indications of a sensor malfunction, so this is definitely classified as a rare defect at this point. That being said we have been unable to duplicate the defect at all. I will keep you updated on this.

In the meantime you are obviously free to contact support and receive a replacement within 2 business days.

Also, it may be beneficial to us if you tried your unit on a different computer. The fact that we have been unable to duplicate the issue up till this point may mean it is specific to certain conditions.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Hmm, very well. I'll do an exchange with amazon. I have a completely different (light blue supermat vs black qck+) mouse pad and computer than the other guy though.

Also, Jude, I want to add that even though I'm primarily an FPS gamer, I do play SC2 and lots of single player games. The fact that this mouse leaves out an important criteria for 2d gamers (50dpi increments) means that even if it were ideal for FPS games I would likely not buy it since I do not want to switch mice depending on what game I feel like playing.

I'm sure there are lots of people who also play multiple game types and would feel the same.

This is one of the reasons why making shapes that are only good for 1 grip (not referring to this mouse) is for the most part a really bad idea in my opinion, as different games/tasks require different grips.

===========================

So picking up the mouse after back and forth swipes on the desktop doesn't seem to cause the non-responding at any point... Will test more.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Hmm, very well. I'll do an exchange with amazon. I have a completely different (light blue supermat vs black qck+) mouse pad and computer than the other guy though.
> 
> Also, Jude, I want to add that even though I'm primarily an FPS gamer, I do play SC2 and lots of single player games. The fact that this mouse leaves out an important criteria for 2d gamers (50dpi increments) means that even if it were ideal for FPS games I would likely not buy it since I do not want to switch mice depending on what game I feel like playing.
> 
> I'm sure there are lots of people who also play multiple game types and would feel the same.
> 
> This is one of the reasons why making shapes that are only good for 1 grip (not referring to this mouse) is for the most part a really bad idea in my opinion, as different games/tasks require different grips.


Maximillian,

I can tell you for a fact that the sensor will not work well on a light blue surface. I'm not sure if your surface is the culprit in this situation but there is a good chance it may be, so wouldnt hurt to try changing that. Also thank you for the input regarding the dpi, it has been noted.

Also It would help me troubleshoot the issue if you did a couple quick additional tests:

1: Move the mouse around on a blank white surface. Like the back of the packaging the mouse came in. Let me know on a scale of 1-10 how much the cursor moves as you move around the mouse. 1 being it does not move at all. 5 being it skips often but can be used, etc...

2. If possible repeat step 1 on a black surface.

3. Check the lens for any noticeable artifacts (scratches, dust, hair)

4. Check the lens for any noticeable assembly defect/breakage. Confirm the assembly and positioning of the lens with the following reference image:



5. Lastly check for any wire breakage/defect that may have occurred. Do this by putting pressure on the wiring in multiple ways and moving around the mouse (especially by the USB and mouse end of the wiring). Note any changes in function as the wire is manipulated.

6. Note any changes in function if you switch USB ports and/or computers.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Anything outside of the green highlighted colors below (more technically values/lightness) will have a negative effect on the FinalMouse sensor function. This value scale can be used with any color. It is imperative that FinalMouse is used with darker values.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Seriously why even bother its the lens guys, its so simple the lens will give the mouse tracking a lot of problems.

If they just used the normal lens nothing was wrong......


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> Seriously why even bother its the lens guys, its so simple the lens will give the mouse tracking a lot of problems.
> 
> If they just used the normal lens nothing was wrong......


Pls, Zowie did it, so it is enthusiast....

Altough they didnt bother on the 3310 because there frankly is no need for it, and i still have no answer as to why this lens looks the same as 2120.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Pls, Zowie did it, so it is enthusiast....
> 
> Altough they didnt bother on the 3310 because there frankly is no need for it, and i still have no answer as to why this lens looks the same as 2120.


Hello Woll3,

A lens kit includes both the lens and the illumination subsystem. Illumination subsystem includes the LED assembly clip, it's various components, and the led itself.

Ctraltelite,

There is nothing with the lens that causes any sensor issues. With our current inhouse benchmarks our sensor implementation outperforms parralel chipset products which you can validate by reading the reviews from distinguished OCN members and early purchasers. Not being able to use a mouse on light surfaces is not an indication of a lens issue, it is completely intended.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Woll3,
> 
> A lens kit includes both the lens and the illumination subsystem. Illumination subsystem includes the LED assembly clip, it's various components, and the led itself.
> 
> Ctraltelite,
> 
> There is nothing with the lens that causes any sensor issues. With our current inhouse benchmarks our sensor implementation outperforms parralel chipset products which you can validate by reading the reviews from distinguished OCN members and early purchasers. Not being able to use a mouse on light surfaces is not an indication of a lens issue, it is completely intended.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


so its intended to have inaccurate dpi values, acceleration and all sort of other issues.

I really have the idea you have no clue what you are talking about and only doing some damage control here.

But hey its enthusiast....


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Woll3,
> 
> A lens kit includes both the lens and the illumination subsystem. Illumination subsystem includes the LED assembly clip, it's various components, and the led itself.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> In our case we are using a different ADNS lens kit.


The Picture you have posted clearly shows the ADNS-2220-001 and the lens itself looks the same as ADNS-2120-001, dont get me wrong, i am not trying to bash you or anything but this doesnt match what you have stated, if the Factory has told you that this is "something special", well, then you can blame them.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Receiving a review unit means getting it for free. Purchasing the mouse means putting money forward in exchange for the good. If you get it for free, you're bound by their embargo schedule or whatever the agreement stipulates. If you buy it with your money, you can do whatever you want.


Oh, I get what you meant, but you said that if you _didn't_ receive a review unit then you _couldn't_ review it, thus meaning that to review it you needed a review unit (or to have paid in full):
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Those who didn't receive a review unit can't post a review I think. Those who paid full price can write a review.


And Jude, if you're saying you guys specifically designed your mouse to be bad on certain surfaces in order to be better on others, that should be mentioned on the amazon page as it's a pretty big deal. I get that you say it's not "officially released" or whatever but the simple fact is that you're selling the mouse to anyone who can buy it so realistically it is released; you just don't have a site up. And if the thing you're selling on amazon isn't the final version, then that should be noted as well.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> There is nothing with the lens that causes any sensor issues. With our current inhouse benchmarks our sensor implementation outperforms parralel chipset products which you can validate by reading the reviews from distinguished OCN members and early purchasers.


where is the review of distinguished ocn members, they most distinguished ocn members are bashing this mouse because they know what they are talking about.

Or Jude wo do you see as distinguished I am getting curious now.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> where is the review of distinguished ocn members, they most distinguished ocn members are bashing this mouse because they know what they are talking about.
> 
> Or Jude wo do you see as distinguished I am getting curious now.


I think he is referring to me because I like it. But on my unit the CPI steps weren't off by much and it had no accel.
Really the only negative I see right now is the price. I can live with 500 Hz (did on the Deathadder and older Zowies) and 400 CPI. And I like the light weight


----------



## MaximilianKohler

It doesn't track at all when moved on the white box it came in. Is this the expected result?

I checked the lens before, but just now I cleaned it out with a qtip.

I have a black mousepad which I'll test on tonight, along with a different usb port.


----------



## Screwball

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It doesn't track at all when moved on the white box it came in. Is this the expected result?


Most optical mice track like garbage on anything but flat black mats. I dont see how this is a issue though.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It doesn't track at all when moved on the white box it came in. Is this the expected result?
> 
> I checked the lens before, but just now I cleaned it out with a qtip.
> 
> I have a black mousepad which I'll test on tonight, along with a different usb port.


I believe Jude meant the little paper insert with some info that came in the box. The box itself is glossy white which is extremely unlikely to work.

I've actually been using mine on a white pad with no issues for the last 4 days or so.


----------



## RyuLAN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Maximillian,
> 
> I can tell you for a fact that the sensor will not work well on a light blue surface. I'm not sure if your surface is the culprit in this situation but there is a good chance it may be, so wouldnt hurt to try changing that. Also thank you for the input regarding the dpi, it has been noted.
> 
> Also It would help me troubleshoot the issue if you did a couple quick additional tests:
> 
> 1: Move the mouse around on a blank white surface. Like the back of the packaging the mouse came in. Let me know on a scale of 1-10 how much the cursor moves as you move around the mouse. 1 being it does not move at all. 5 being it skips often but can be used, etc...
> 
> 2. If possible repeat step 1 on a black surface.
> 
> 3. Check the lens for any noticeable artifacts (scratches, dust, hair)
> 
> 4. Check the lens for any noticeable assembly defect/breakage. Confirm the assembly and positioning of the lens with the following reference image:
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Lastly check for any wire breakage/defect that may have occurred. Do this by putting pressure on the wiring in multiple ways and moving around the mouse (especially by the USB and mouse end of the wiring). Note any changes in function as the wire is manipulated.
> 
> 6. Note any changes in function if you switch USB ports and/or computers.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


My replacement mouse showed up today (which was awesome, thanks for the great customer service/responsiveness).

I didn't test all the above, but:

2. It happened on my QcK heavy as well.

3. Checked, was clean.

4. Couldn't compare it to the reference image, but didn't see any immediate signs of breakage.

5. Cable was all good.

6. Did that a few times, no change.

Because my scroll wheel rattled like a snake and the scroll wheel did not light up, I think mine just got damaged in transit (or elsewhere). I will be testing this replacement this evening and will report back (and update my review) for those interested.

-Ryu


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Pls, Zowie did it, so it is enthusiast....
> 
> Altough they didnt bother on the 3310 because there frankly is no need for it, and i still have no answer as to why this lens looks the same as 2120.


And Zowie stopped doing it with the 3310 and FK1/2.

It's all fine and dandy until it subtracts from performance imo. Which it did for Zowie and so far it seems similar for this mouse too.

Also, light blue colors? You're basically saying your mouse doesn't even work on an all time classic: The Allsop Raindrop XL.

GG

(not even Zowie had this issue tbh, their custom lens might have affected performance, but at least it was quite consistent across surfaces)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> I believe Jude meant the little paper insert with some info that came in the box. The box itself is glossy white which is extremely unlikely to work.
> 
> I've actually been using mine on a white pad with no issues for the last 4 days or so.


Well that paper insert has black writing on it so that kind of ruins the results. But if that's what he's talking about then yeah, it starts and stops when moved on that thing. Probably only tracking on the parts with black lettering.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Well that paper insert has black writing on it so that kind of ruins the results. But if that's what he's talking about then yeah, it starts and stops when moved on that thing. Probably only tracking on the parts with black lettering.


Oh oops, I actually read their post wrong anyways. I thought it mentioned it. I also thought the backside of that was pure white for some reason. M'bad.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I tested on a white piece of paper with visible black ink from the other side and it doesn't track on there either... wonder how you get tracking on a white mousepad...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Ok, switching to a black mouse pad made a huge difference. The problem is still slightly there but many people might not notice it.

Other than this one problem that might be due to the custom lens, this mouse feels fantastic. It has almost 0 artificial processing/smoothing. I can't say with certainty whether my 3.0 is still better than this, which is saying a lot (have only found maybe 1 other mouse in the past 10 years).

And just to be clear, I said the mouse had *no acceleration* when I was testing it to try and figure out what the problem was.

It's quite the relief knowing that you CAN make modern sensors perform as well as the mlt04.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ok, switching to a black mouse pad made a huge difference. The problem is still slightly there but many people might not notice it.
> 
> Other than this one problem that might be due to the custom lens, this mouse feels fantastic. It has almost 0 artificial processing/smoothing. I can't say with certainty whether my 3.0 is still better than this, which is saying a lot (have only found maybe 1 other mouse in the past 10 years).
> 
> And just to be clear, I said the mouse had *no acceleration* when I was testing it to try and figure out what the problem was.
> 
> It's quite the relief knowing that you CAN make modern sensors perform as well as the mlt04.


Hello Maximillian,

Glad to hear the surface change helped, however I would still look to have you contact our support team to get a replacement sent at no charge since there should be no sensor loss at all and others are not experiencing even the subtle issue you mentioned. Sounds like there may be something compromised with your unit (especially since yours is so sensitive with surface changes) You can even contact me directly at [email protected] to expedite the process.

And the lens itself is not "custom". Nothing is different in that it would cause anything negative with sensor performance. Our illumination system implementation works to enhance sensor read ability and further optimize LOD not the other way around.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Ok, I'll do an exchange with amazon. Do your guy's mice track on the surface of the white box?


----------



## Junki3e

I just got mine today, used it for about half hour just to see if there were any issues. When I held down the LMB and sprayed the M4A4 in CS:GO, a strange adhesive caused the LMB to get stuck together with the shell. Managed to get the adhesive out by scraping it away though. Now its all good.


----------



## RyuLAN

I tested for several hours last night with the replacement unit, and had ZERO tracking issues.

The scroll wheel does not rattle as my first one did, it illuminates, which my first one did not, and the tracking was flawless in and out of game. No skipping/freezing. I'm a happy camper at the moment.

-Ryu


----------



## NorthStarr

I've lurked these forums for a very very long time, but i wanted to make an account to post about this mouse. Mine just came in today and even after an hour or so of use i can already tell this is gonna be my main mouse. Coming from the 518/g400 this thing just feels natural to me, and the sensor feels like one of the best i own (i have 15+ mice). I'm currently using it on a qck heavy, but i plan on testing it on all my other pads later on tonight.

The only downside I've been experiencing is sometimes i miss click the right mouse button. I have a feeling it's because i had been using the fk1 prior to getting this so once i settle down a little bit it shouldn't be a problem. The mouse being locked at 500hz isn't a big deal to me, but i can see why others would want 1000hz. In my opinion the only thing that needs to change with this mouse is the price. Lower the price and maybe add in an extra set of mouse feet and id probably buy 2 more. Overall I'm super impressed.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NorthStarr*
> 
> I've lurked these forums for a very very long time, but i wanted to make an account to post about this mouse. Mine just came in today and even after an hour or so of use i can already tell this is gonna be my main mouse. Coming from the 518/g400 this thing just feels natural to me, and the sensor feels like one of the best i own (i have 15+ mice). I'm currently using it on a qck heavy, but i plan on testing it on all my other pads later on tonight.
> 
> The only downside I've been experiencing is sometimes i miss click the right mouse button. I have a feeling it's because i had been using the fk1 prior to getting this so once i settle down a little bit it shouldn't be a problem. The mouse being locked at 500hz isn't a big deal to me, but i can see why others would want 1000hz. In my opinion the only thing that needs to change with this mouse is the price. Lower the price and maybe add in an extra set of mouse feet and id probably buy 2 more. Overall I'm super impressed.


I'm 90% convinced I need this mouse, I love the imperator shape, but just the price is hiding me back. It's almost going to cost me $100 all up including postage. That's a fair suck off the sav


----------



## Hackshot

I'm currently on mobile, so I won't be able to provide much info right now, but I thought it would be useful to say that I had the aforementioned problem of the mouse stopping tracking for a sec after a couple of rapid repositionings with the Imperator... Dunno how, but since both mice use the same shell it could be something more than coincidence.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ok, I'll do an exchange with amazon. Do your guy's mice track on the surface of the white box?


Just tested:

Does not track on the glossy box
Does track on white paper
Does track on Puretrak Talent, and very good at that too, see below:


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Just tested:
> 
> Does track on Puretrak Talent, and very good at that too, see below:


Could you do the tracking test on a dark mat (like QcK), to compare how well the Puretrak performs up against black mats with this mouse.

Thanks.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> Could you do the tracking test on a dark mat (like QcK), to compare how well the Puretrak performs up against black mats with this mouse.
> 
> Thanks.


Did already, it performed similarly.



That's on the QPAD UC 50.
I also did a review on Youtube, can't link though.

Btw: As I know you prefer higher LOD: on this one it is higher than most other 3310 mice I had, tracked (barely) at 2 CDs.


----------



## Clyq

Am I missing something? Why do we care if it tracks on the box it came in? I get the importance of tracking on multiple surfaces but that's why laser exists.. Maybe the next step for finalmouse is to release an extra large cloth pad _optimized_ for the mouse and bundle it together.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clyq*
> 
> Am I missing something? Why do we care if it tracks on the box it came in? I get the importance of tracking on multiple surfaces but that's why laser exists.. Maybe the next step for finalmouse is to release an extra large cloth pad _optimized_ for the mouse and bundle it together.


It was just to check if that was part of the defect.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*


So you're getting over 5m/s?

And you get 389cpi on your finalmouse? I get around 470.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> So you're getting over 5m/s?
> 
> And you get 389cpi on your finalmouse? I get around 470.


Yes to both. Did you get your replacement?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Won't be till next week. I haven't sent it in yet.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Btw: As I know you prefer higher LOD: on this one it is higher than most other 3310 mice I had, tracked (barely) at 2 CDs.


Sweet!
Good news.


----------



## chrislee11

Quick question. To the people who have this mouse, how is it with a fingertip grip? Thought it looked interesting and it is super light. With the shape and light weight i was wondering if it could do well with a fingertip grip.

Has anyone successfully used this with a fingertip grip or are the ergonomics bad for that grip?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrislee11*
> 
> Quick question. To the people who have this mouse, how is it with a fingertip grip? Thought it looked interesting and it is super light. With the shape and light weight i was wondering if it could do well with a fingertip grip.
> 
> Has anyone successfully used this with a fingertip grip or are the ergonomics bad for that grip?


It's not optimal, but due to the light weight it works.


----------



## chrislee11

That's what I thought. Since it is shaped with the imperator shell it probably isn't optimal but it is so light it might work. Not sure if I want to spend that much money for it not to work out though lol.


----------



## detto87

G100S and remove weight. Tada! 70gr fingertip mouse. Just a tip if you haven't thought or tried that yet.


----------



## chrislee11

I have and I didn't like the shape and the plastic coating. Everything else was great but the shape didn't work with my grip for some reason. Not sure if it was the height of the mouse or the width.


----------



## LzbeL

guys, this is the best recommended mice for FPS games ? Where can I buy it?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LzbeL*
> 
> guys, this is the best recommended mice for FPS games ? Where can I buy it?


I would say so. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MX8QSLW


----------



## Clyq

It's rare for me to make a review of something I purchased unless it deserves a warning or something, so I get that some people might have only 1 review on their profile. However, each person has only 1 review on file and the reviews are made january 8, 9, 10, 12.. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MX8QSLW
So of course, take what reviews you see with a heap of salt.


----------



## Jonagold

Finally purchased mine, the price hurt so badd







( 108e with shippings.. Hopefully it will be the one for me to be worth the price..


----------



## kornedbeefy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LzbeL*
> 
> guys, this is the best recommended mice for FPS games ? Where can I buy it?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I would say so. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MX8QSLW


So you think its better than a FK2 for FPS? I just received my FK2 yesterday but will return it if you think the finalmouse is better. I'm really not liking not having a dpi button on top of the FK2. I know some are ok with it but I'm really missing that feature after playing BF4 last night.


----------



## Screwball

Both the Finalmouse 2015 and Kone Pure Military are better than the FK2. I Prefer the Kone Pure Military over the Finalmouse 2015.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Screwball*
> 
> Both the Finalmouse 2015 and Kone Pure Military are better than the FK2.


I agree. Zowie's been doing something bad to their sensors.

Add the aurora to the list of sensors better than the fk1/2.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Screwball*
> 
> I Prefer the Kone Pure Military over the Finalmouse 2015.


Why?


----------



## Screwball

Kone Pure Military has overall better build quality and the Finalmouse only running @ 500hz sort of balances out any benefits of it having slightly less smoothing so they perform roughly the same.

I also highly prefer the KPM's shape and coating.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I see.

For me the shape and weight of the FinalMouse are better, and the sensor is pretty significantly better in FPS games for me. I've never really tested 500 vs 1000hz since my 3.0 can't handle 1000hz.


----------



## Screwball

I don't really notice much of a difference in arena shooters although i could see how any smoothing would be more of a thing in tactical shooters. Probably why so many CS players still use MLT-04 mice despite the horrific PCS.


----------



## kornedbeefy

Thanks for the quick feedback guys. I was really trying to force myself to like the FK2 so your feedback was perfect. I normally throw mice I don't like on my mouse collection pile (20+) but at $67 I just didn't want to this time. It just felt like a cheap mouse. Sorry, no offense to any Zowie lovers.... I do have a Zowie am on my pile.









FK2 boxed up and ready to ship back.

Now off to Amazon to pull the trigger on the Finalmouse to see how I like it vs my KPM.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kornedbeefy*
> 
> Now off to Amazon to pull the trigger on the Finalmouse to see how I like it vs my KPM.


Don't waste your time, the KPM is miles ahead in performance and quality.

Everyone is whinging about BST's quality but Finalmouse is way worse in that regard, hence if you want quality above all else and not what some paid for company shill is recommending, then stay with your KPM.


----------



## kornedbeefy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Don't waste your time, the KPM is miles ahead in performance and quality.
> 
> Everyone is whinging about BST's quality but Finalmouse is way worse in that regard, hence if you want quality above all else and not what some paid for company shill is recommending, then stay with your KPM.


I pulled the trigger but then cancelled it shortly after. I didn't feel comfortable spending $67 after rereading the thread. A little to pricey for the "overall" quality of the mouse. Also I didn't like the Imperators shape. I have one and its not comfortable for my hand size and claw grip.

As someone else mentioned they really should get it on massdrop for a more reasonable price. I'd be willing to buy it then to help support their future projects.


----------



## leakydog

Yes, KPM is a little bit pricey, but has really incredibly sturdy build quality which I never seen before. I am able to compare Roccat KPM next to Mionix Naos, and Naos feels so cheaply... just like another average "made in china" product - huge dissapointment.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Don't waste your time, the KPM is miles ahead in performance and quality.
> 
> Everyone is whinging about BST's quality but Finalmouse is way worse in that regard, hence if you want quality above all else and not what some paid for company shill is recommending, then stay with your KPM.


Well, it is certainly not worse than my Aurora which clicks very cheaply and has a horrible cable, I'd say the FM is a tiny bit better than the Aurora in that regard. But the Aurora is also just half the price, so there's that.

Roccat definitely is one of the best when it comes to build quality, so if someone can comfortably grab the KPM that should be great. I can't though, it's like a piece of soap to me.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Don't waste your time, the KPM is miles ahead in performance and quality.
> 
> Everyone is whinging about BST's quality but Finalmouse is way worse in that regard, hence if you want quality above all else and not what some paid for company shill is recommending, then stay with your KPM.


Except for the sensor of my finalmouse possibly being faulty, everything else about the build quality of mine is on par with the KPM.

And if my sensor is simply faulty than I could easily see this mouse being much better than the KPM, and even better than the 3.0.

My aurora is absolutely worse quality than my FM. Sounds to me like you got a bad one.

"some paid for company shill"

Who are you referring to?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> "some paid for company shill"
> 
> Who are you referring to?


NO one exactly, it's just when someone keeps hammering on about how great one product is on a consistent basis you immediately draw that conclusion.

Although I sound like one of them when it comes to using and promoting some input devices, shame I never see a single cent out of it







.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> NO one exactly, it's just when someone keeps hammering on about how great one product is on a consistent basis you immediately draw that conclusion.


You say "someone" but I haven't seen anyone do that...


----------



## Junki3e

@MaximilianKohler How does the FinalMouse 2015 compare to the IME 3.0 In terms of sensor performance and quality?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> @MaximilianKohler How does the FinalMouse 2015 compare to the IME 3.0 In terms of sensor performance and quality?


I can't say yet because there could be a problem with mine.

After I exchange mine I'll update.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I did some more testing to see if I could narrow the problem to anything specific, but so far LOD, malfunction speed (both in enotus and microe's plots), and dpi values are the same on both black and light blue mouse pads.

It can't be that the mouse just has too low lod for me because my 3.0 (with extra set of mouse feet) only tracks on 1 CD, while the aurora (with double mouse feet) and FM both track on at least 2. This is with the back on the mouse on the CDs and the front touching the mouse pad.


----------



## the1onewolf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You say "someone" but I haven't seen anyone do that...


He's just talking in generalities about those very generic reviews that are more 5-6 minutes of pointless blabbing than an actual detailed/technical review.


----------



## mrvirtualboy

.


----------



## -Shenanigans-

I have used this mouse and I love it. It is extremely light and has great tracking. You don't need 1000hz polling honestly, even on my G400S I used 500 and played CSGO at 300fps.

Jude, I really appreciate the quality of this mouse and love it way more than any other mouse I have ever used. You have made a great product and should be proud.

Everyone who says its a fake and a copy, you are all wrong. This is a professional quality mouse and I could see it being chosen over a Zowie. It is 110% plug and play.

Mark


----------



## Gigantoad

So how much does it weigh?


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gigantoad*
> 
> So how much does it weigh?


I don't personally have a scale to give an actual number, but the weight according to FinalMouse specs is 74g without cord. It is definitely a light mouse.


----------



## Junki3e

Apparently I'm not used to a mouse that light, I overshoot my target a lot. Still trying to get used to it. (Yes I'm used to the Sensei)


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> Apparently I'm not used to a mouse that light, I overshoot my target a lot. Still trying to get used to it. (Yes I'm used to the Sensei)


I had the same issue for a little bit. Just give it a bit of time.

You might wanna test the true DPI of yours, too, or test sens between mice by means of a 180 in game. My FM as well as most other people's it seems has DPI seeming to be slightly higher than the intended steps. 400 is like 450-460. If you didn't account for that in some way it could cause some overshooting, too.


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> I had the same issue for a little bit. Just give it a bit of time.
> 
> You might wanna test the true DPI of yours, too, or test sens between mice by means of a 180 in game. My FM as well as most other people's it seems has DPI seeming to be slightly higher than the intended steps. 400 is like 450-460. If you didn't account for that in some way it could cause some overshooting, too.


Now, how do I test true DPI? The only testing software I use is the Enotus Mouse Test ^_^


----------



## a_ak57

Well, you can actually do it with Enotus. When you're setting the resolution, just look at the value after you move the 10cm but before you let go of the button. Alternatively, use microe's program (it's a sticky now).


----------



## Junki3e

Gee thanks for the help.


----------



## Jonagold

I got my Finalmouse 2015 today, why are the dpi -steps messed up? when using 1600dpi the real dpi is more like 2000, faster than the 1750 on my old g100s.. Where can I contact the customer support?

After some testing it feels ok otherwise, only dpi-steps are not accurate..


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I got my Finalmouse 2015 today, why are the dpi -steps messed up? when using 1600dpi the real dpi is more like 2000, faster than the 1750 on my old g100s.. Where can I contact the customer support?
> 
> After some testing it feels ok otherwise, only dpi-steps are not accurate..


I don't think the mouse is out yet so they might not have a proper customer support system set up; the website hasn't even gone live yet. As far as I know, the amazon link that's up right now isn't meant for people to buy the mouse, it's meant for people to test it. From what I've heard the people that finalmouse are working with, e.g. adreN, are using the amazon page along with a coupon code to purchase the mouse through amazon for free.


----------



## Ino.

A little update:

I did the Bloody Mouse Shooting Speed Test now with the Finalmouse and to my surprise it won over the Logitech G302, although only by ~2 ms. So I'd say the button latency is definitely low on this one.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> A little update:
> 
> I did the Bloody Mouse Shooting Speed Test now with the Finalmouse and to my surprise it won over the Logitech G302, although only by ~2 ms. So I'd say the button latency is definitely low on this one.


No surprise there, the G302 cursor movement feels like it has more movement correction going on than both G100s and G402 AM010. The Finalmouse 3310 implementation feels less processed than G302, which was a surprise. The main thing that stops me from being big on the mouse, as well as many other people that posted, is the 500hz polling rate. Finalmouse talked about possibly having higher polling, so I said I would delay review on it.

The next problematic area of the mouse is the middle mouse button. It's pretty clunky and awkward to use in comparison to nicer middle clicks like ones on a Xai, Sensei, Kana, or most Razer mice. Didn't take it a apart yet, but the switch was pretty stiff, so might be a Huano.


----------



## RentoN

Does anyone have informations on when I'll be able to buy this mouse from germany?

Edit: Just saw that it's on amazon.com and it even looks like they'd shif to germany.
Can't use amazon.com though since they only accept credit cards.
So my question is: when will it be on amazon.de or any other vendor that both ships to germany and accepts paypal or something similar.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> Does anyone have informations on when I'll be able to buy this mouse from germany?
> 
> Edit: Just saw that it's on amazon.com and it even looks like they'd shif to germany.
> Can't use amazon.com though since they only accept credit cards.
> So my question is: when will it be on amazon.de or any other vendor that both ships to germany and accepts paypal or something similar.


Probably in a couple of weeks when the mouse officially releases. Right now it's still pre-release as far as I know.


----------



## hajabooja

Any chance someone could post some pictures of this compared to the Kone Pure Military (or any of the Kone Pure's, I suppose) and/or the g402?

Thanks


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Probably in a couple of weeks when the mouse officially releases. Right now it's still pre-release as far as I know.


So they'll release this one with the EC-2A, I know which one I'll buy for sure........







.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> So they'll release this one with the EC-2A, I know which one I'll buy for sure........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The Finalmouse?
From what I've heard it has a more raw sensor feeling coupled with less button latency.
Both to be confirmed by serious tests, but so far it could be better than the EC2-A.
Also: the buttons on the Finalmouse are separated which IMO always is a plus.


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> So they'll release this one with the EC-2A, I know which one I'll buy for sure........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


You mean the EC-2A I guess?
I'm the other way round. If I get any new mouse (which I'm not sure I will, since I'm acctually quite happy with my Aurora right now), I'll probably get a Finalmouse over the EC-2A.
Just because I swor myself that I will never use a mouse above 75g again








Not quite sure if the finalmouse isn't too big for me though. Does anyone know the mesurements or how big it is compared to a FK (not FK1, so the small version)?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> You mean the EC-2A I guess?
> I'm the other way round. If I get any new mouse (which I'm not sure I will, since I'm acctually quite happy with my Aurora right now), I'll probably get a Finalmouse over the EC-2A.
> Just because I swor myself that I will never use a mouse above 75g again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite sure if the finalmouse isn't too big for me though. Does anyone know the mesurements or how big it is compared to a FK (not FK1, so the small version)?


FinalMouse is 123.46mm(L)*70.20mm(W)*42.37mm(H)


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> FinalMouse is 123.46mm(L)*70.20mm(W)*42.37mm(H)


Any word on when this thing is getting released and we can see some proper reviews?


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> we can see some proper reviews?


He already provided a proper review. Since I'm not the author I don't see how posting this would be against any rules.






I'm very impressed with the MouseTester graphs compared to other 3310 graphs that Ino provided in his other reviews.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> He already provided a proper review. Since I'm not the author I don't see how posting this would be against any rules.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm very impressed with the MouseTester graphs compared to other 3310 graphs that Ino provided in his other reviews.


Oh hey thanks I hadn't seen that. Sorry, I thought everyone was under embargo or something.


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RentoN*
> 
> You mean the EC-2A I guess?
> I'm the other way round. If I get any new mouse (which I'm not sure I will, since I'm acctually quite happy with my Aurora right now), I'll probably get a Finalmouse over the EC-2A.
> Just because I swor myself that I will never use a mouse above 75g again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite sure if the finalmouse isn't too big for me though. Does anyone know the mesurements or how big it is compared to a FK (not FK1, so the small version)?


Regarding the shape, it feels like a MX518/G400/G400s to me due to the groove for the thumb and the little ridge for the ring finger.


----------



## resis

Can't read through all the pages, so what is the summary. Good mouse? How's build quality? Price in Europe?


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Can't read through all the pages, so what is the summary. Good mouse? How's build quality? Price in Europe?


good sensor (if you're not too bothered by inaccurate DPI settings), build quality is very poor, and the price too high.


----------



## Screwball

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> good sensor (if you're not too bothered by inaccurate DPI settings), build quality is very poor, and the price too high.


I find the build quality to be similar to Razer. Not great but passable. I would say the sensor is slightly better than the kpm. Price is high but that is what you get with small volume products. Would be good if they could get it down to 45$ ?


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Screwball*
> 
> I find the build quality to be similar to Razer. Not great but passable. I would say the sensor is slightly better than the kpm. Price is high but that is what you get with small volume products. Would be good if they could get it down to 45$ ?


The price is also high because the mouse isn't officially out yet. The amazon link is meant to be used with a coupon code so testers can get it for free.


----------



## resis

What exactly isn't good about build quality? The wobbling main buttons? So it's not Zowie quality I guess.

What do you think will be the official price? If I see it being sold with the same number, only exchanged currency symbol (like Zowie), than I'll pass.


----------



## Screwball

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> So it's not Zowie quality I guess


It is.


----------



## resis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Screwball*
> 
> It is.


Now I'm not sure whether you mean it in a positive or negative way.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Now I'm not sure whether you mean it in a positive or negative way.


This is OCN, so it's always meant as a negative







.


----------



## resis

Okay, so if it's Zowie grade build quality, than I should be satisfied with it then.

I only wonder if Zowie isn't considered good build quality, what is then? Not looking at component choice here, like the horrible scrollwheel and huanos, but rather the way things are assembled.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *resis*
> 
> Okay, so if it's Zowie grade build quality, than I should be satisfied with it then.
> 
> I only wonder if Zowie isn't considered good build quality, what is then? Not looking at component choice here, like the horrible scrollwheel and huanos, but rather the way things are assembled.


Here's the review Ino did on the finalmouse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XaCbC81NR8 . Basically he says the build quality is good if you don't care about aesthetic imperfections. There are some minor imperfections with the injection molding but they don't affect the performance of the mouse and are something you only notice if you're looking at the mouse very closely.


----------



## p0ps

Does the 3310 sensor have native CPI 50-5000 in steps of 50 cpi? Or is it just marketing BS? What is the native CPI of the 3310 sensor? Is it 1600?


----------



## pran

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *p0ps*
> 
> Does the 3310 sensor have native CPI 50-5000 in steps of 50 cpi? Or is it just marketing BS? What is the native CPI of the 3310 sensor? Is it 1600?


http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/PMW3310DH_DS_S_V1.0_20131121110417.pdf
 Resolution up to 5000cpi with step of ~50cpi


----------



## MaximilianKohler

The build quality has NOT been poor on either of the FinalMice I've tested.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The build quality has NOT been poor on either of the FinalMice I've tested.


Just out of curiosity, how many Finalmouse 2015's have you tested?


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how many Finalmouse 2015's have you tested?


I've used 2. One of which had the LED issue which is supposed to be being fixed and only effected around ~5% of mice. I think the wobbly scroll wheel a couple people mentioned is related to the LED issue, too, so the majority of mice shouldn't have it.

Both have the extra travel on the left click, though I don't consider it real bad since a finger lightly resting on it is enough to push it down past that so it isn't noticeable in action. The majority of the shell is fine, too. The only issues I had was on some of the underside edges, they were sorta jagged and rough and if you lifted your mouse at weird angles sometimes they can scrape in a really rough and unpleasant way. I think it's extremely unlikely for the majority of users to have this issue though, as you'd have to have a habit of letting the back of the mouse hang really low since it's around where the bottom portion of the shell meets the top/middle portion.

Both performed perfectly, as well. The build quality issues are nothing that effects performance (aside from the LED thing, which you can just get a replacement for). That said, they shouldn't exist on a 60+ dollar mouse, but I dig the mouse so much it'd be worth it to me. I do think they should still try to get it down to around 50.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I've had 2. I'm currently testing the 2nd one.

My first one did actually have that scraping issue sometimes. Maybe they should make the feet thicker.


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *p0ps*
> 
> Does the 3310 sensor have native CPI 50-5000 in steps of 50 cpi? Or is it just marketing BS? What is the native CPI of the 3310 sensor? Is it 1600?


yes and yes


----------



## czerro

Ino judged the the lift-off as 2 CD's, so like 2.4mm? That's a little on the high side, but it's unclear from his review if he just means it stopped tracking on the second CD, so the lift-off may be lower and he didn't really address that.

What's the consensus on the lift-off?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Ino judged the the lift-off as 2 CD's, so like 2.4mm? That's a little on the high side, but it's unclear from his review if he just means it stopped tracking on the second CD, so the lift-off may be lower and he didn't really address that.
> 
> What's the consensus on the lift-off?


Mine tracked on 2 CDs. With the back of the mouse on the CDs and the front of the mouse touching the pad.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Ino judged the the lift-off as 2 CD's, so like 2.4mm? That's a little on the high side, but it's unclear from his review if he just means it stopped tracking on the second CD, so the lift-off may be lower and he didn't really address that.
> 
> What's the consensus on the lift-off?


With the mouse on 2CDs it barely tracks on black cloth. I had 2 CDs under the top feet and 2 under the bottom feet.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Mine tracked on 2 CDs. With the back of the mouse on the CDs and the front of the mouse touching the pad.


that's not how it's supposed to be tested, to state the LOD by "CD-height" though.


----------



## kaptchka

This just came up on the FinalMouse's Facebook page. Looks like they may be launching soon


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> This just came up on the FinalMouse's Facebook page. Looks like they may be launching soon


Wow I'm surprised he's allowed to make that video since he's sponsored by razer.


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> This just came up on the FinalMouse's Facebook page. Looks like they may be launching soon


what a rough ending, it does this very well, bamm clips ends.......

He does not mention anything else then the higher malfunction speed wich is the only good thing about it...........


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CtrlAltel1te*
> 
> what a rough ending, it does this very well, bamm clips ends.......
> 
> He does not mention anything else then the higher malfunction speed wich is the only good thing about it...........


Yeah adreN isn't the best when it comes to editing/presentation. People watch him because he's a good player and has a good personality not because he makes high quality videos.

Also, I just got the fm today and so far it's a lot better than my deathadder, g502, and naos. The only issue I've had was there were some small bumps in the shell from the injection molding process but I just filed those off in 2 minutes. The tracking feels way more responsive than my deathadder or naos (which is weird since I had those running at 1000 hz) and the weight of the fm makes it so much better to use than any of my other mice especially the g502. For those who are wondering, the scroll wheel feels almost identical to the one in the deathadder 2013 and although the left click button can move down slightly before the click registers it's still nowhere near as mushy as the deathadder's click or any other mouse I've used that has the click buttons attached to the entire shell.

Overall it's actually a very good mouse. The only major concern I have is the price. I bought mine off amazon for $67 but unless the price drops when the mouse officially comes out, I think a lot of people are going to be turned off. The cost to manufacture this mouse is much cheaper than that of a g502 for example yet they still cost the same price.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I got my Finalmouse 2015 today, why are the dpi -steps messed up? when using 1600dpi the real dpi is more like 2000, faster than the 1750 on my old g100s.. Where can I contact the customer support?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Wow I'm surprised he's allowed to make that video since he's sponsored by razer.


He probably made the video before all the team liquid stuff.

He might put a razer sticker over the fm and make it look like an imperator LOL


----------



## CtrlAltel1te

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> He might put a razer sticker over the fm and make it look like an imperator LOL


+1


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> The main thing that stops me from being big on the mouse, as well as many other people that posted, is the 500hz polling rate. Finalmouse talked about possibly having higher polling, so I said I would delay review on it.


It would be awesome if they had 125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz and 1000Hz with the same stability they have with their current 500Hz. That would make the mouse very tempting regardless of the OEM shell and braided cable. To top that off the switch latency is claimed to be very low. However they need to use the standard lens (don't cheap out).

If they had that type of performance and a shape without the thumb groove (with buttons close to the thumb unlike the Rival or EC) I would use this mouse... Although I would want to change the cable.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *p0ps*
> 
> Does the 3310 sensor have native CPI 50-5000 in steps of 50 cpi? Or is it just marketing BS? What is the native CPI of the 3310 sensor? Is it 1600?


The pixel array is 900.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *p0ps*
> 
> If zowie can't even get their act together and invest time and money to fix the click latency and the scroll wheel imagine how s**tty their software would be (and it would add 10$ to the price or they would cheap out on something to keep the price). Flashable firmware would be awesome thought. I have two zowie mice fk1 and evo cl and they are like TVRs no traction control no abs. Mice are like p0rn there is a mouse for everyone. Speaking of p0rn I was watching it with my roccat kpm and when I accidentally hit the DPI button a loud epic sounding voice shouted "800 DPI" I almost fell off my chair )) it has been off since. *I think the Finalmouse 2015 could be the ultimate zowie killer* if the final price would be 50-60$.


IF Final Mouse offered a portable setting utility, used the standard lens, offered every polling rate option, a non braided cable and made new a mold/shape they could take most of (if not all) Zowie's sells.

Basically giving you better performance and access to all the features that Zowie does not, but at the same time being minimalistic. At that point they would only need to design amazing molds/shapes to take some of those G302 and G402 sells.

If they stick with their current OEM product and lack of features they will be another $30-60 product you find mostly on Chinese websites only.


----------



## detto87

Maybe that's why the 3310 in the FK1 feels better at 800 than at 400 to me.









Anyway, after ordering a EC2-A and Rival white, my next will be the Finalmouse.

Off to a good start in 2015 .................


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The pixel array is 900


That has nothing to do with native resolution though. The 3310 has native steps in intervals of 50.


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> With the mouse on 2CDs it barely tracks on black cloth. I had 2 CDs under the top feet and 2 under the bottom feet.


Wow, I did not suspect you were going to reply. Thanks. What's your opinion of the lift-off? That's a real singular area at 2.5ish...

Edit: Also, your video was very good and well executed. Lots of people ramble and muddle reviews, but you already laid it out and were referring to your layout on screen obviously a couple times. Awesome. It's not a performance, it's a freakin' review! You nailed it.

The one thing I would say, is some people may have been distracted and did not understand why you were fiddling with the mouse after some comments, even though you were simply scrolling in your word processor. They might attach different meaning to a thread you are done with, and don't realize you are simply physically going to your notes. Like, if you address the scroll or the buttons and then, once done, begin silently using the scroll wheel and buttons to look at some notes, it might look confusing to people that don't really get that bit.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Wow, I did not suspect you were going to reply. Thanks. What's your opinion of the lift-off? That's a real singular area at 2.5ish...
> 
> I dunno that I own anything that isn't closer to 1.7-1.8 or 3.5 on the other end...


True, most mice either track higher or lower than that.
But I only realised when I measured the LOD, before that it felt rather low. So I was surprised that it still moved the cursor at 2 CDs.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> That has nothing to do with native resolution though. The 3310 has native steps in intervals of 50.


So the hardware capability of a sensor has nothing to do with the potential "native" resolutions?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> What's your opinion of the lift-off? That's a real singular area at 2.5ish.


I consider LOD 2.5mm to be the maximum when using any mouse pad. As in a mouse should stop tracking at 2.5mm regardless of color, reflectivity or texture. I say that because above 2.5mm it becomes uncomfortable and on some pads LOD can be lowered a lot.

I think the lowest LOD should be ~1.3mm. With that low of an LOD (or lower) you can have tracking issues on some mouse pads and when you accidentally lift the mouse a tiny amount during a full swipe.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> So the hardware capability of a sensor has nothing to do with the potential "native" resolutions?


No, because all steps are equally "native". Maybe not equally good, but it's not like the old A3090 where everything in between the native steps was worse.

And the sensor array is 30x30, so it is taking pictures in that resolution at a given framerate. These images are used to generate offsets (Δx, Δy) and the speed the cursor then moves with is stated in Counts Per Inch (CPI). But these are a representation of how many counts are reported when moving the mouse in a straight line for one inch. So there is no correlation that says that because the sensor array has 900 dots the native CPI step should be close to 900. It would also be wrong technically to call the CPI steps of mice "resolution", for the same reason. They are merely a representation of cursor speed. But somehow the term is established now.

Hardware capability is more a matter of the complete sensor architecture, so it depends on the sensor array, the framerate, the light intensity and probably a few more other factors.


----------



## Shiotcrock

The logo on the back looks like the Destiny Logo..


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> No, because all steps are equally "native". Maybe not equally good, but it's not like the old A3090 where everything in between the native steps was worse.
> 
> And the sensor array is 30x30, so it is taking pictures in that resolution at a given framerate. These images are used to generate offsets (Δx, Δy) and the speed the cursor then moves with is stated in Counts Per Inch (CPI). But these are a representation of how many counts are reported when moving the mouse in a straight line for one inch. So there is no correlation that says that because the sensor array has 900 dots the native CPI step should be close to 900. It would also be wrong technically to call the CPI steps of mice "resolution", for the same reason. They are merely a representation of cursor speed. But somehow the term is established now.
> 
> Hardware capability is more a matter of the complete sensor architecture, so it depends on the sensor array, the framerate, the light intensity and probably a few more other factors.


The point I was making is that the pixel array determines how high the "native" settings can be. Otherwise just use an inferior array. That is why the 3366 is different than the 3310.

These "native" CPI settings are more "scaled" [DSP] settings than the actual resolution. For the sake of the consumer, the 3310 has a lot of "native" settings. However, when it comes to performance/price the array size is a valid concern. There is a difference between the 3310, AM010 and 3366, even though they have "native" settings. These days "native" CPI settings are not a thing to be worried about with those sensors.


----------



## Jonagold

I was able to malfunction my FinalMouse 2015 on black QCK+ once when I made a fast turn from left to right, cursor went down.. Other than that I have no complains on this mouse. The shape is only thing to really be concerned about and even that works okay with my palm -grip..


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I was able to malfunction my FinalMouse 2015 on black QCK+ once when I made a fast turn from left to right, cursor went down.. Other than that I have no complains on this mouse. The shape is only thing to really be concerned about and even that works okay with my palm -grip..


Really? Can we see your xvelocity in microe's tester?

I have a hard time moving the mouse over 5m/s, and Ino was able to get over 5m/s with his FM.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Really? Can we see your xvelocity in microe's tester?
> 
> I have a hard time moving the mouse over 5m/s, and Ino was able to get over 5m/s with his FM.


I don't think the malfunction were caused by high speed but rather quick change of the direction, g-forces.. I had similar problems with both Logitech g100s and g402 but the issue were worse on them. Finalmouse 2015 has failed me only once so far







I am using medium sensitivity on CSGO, 800dpi 1.5 sensitivity in-game.. 34.6cm per 360°


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Oh, that's interesting.

@optimisTGO could post a screenshot of your xvelocity after a fast swipe using microe's program?

And if anyone else has a light colored mouse pad (especially a blue supermat) could you do the same please?

There is a clear difference on mine for my blue supermat vs a darker pad. Which demonstrates the problems I'm feeling ingame.

Dark gigabyte pad:


Blue supermat:




Even though the difference on the graphs may seem slight, it's very obvious to me in game.


----------



## treach

Isnt your pad like 10 years old, full of dirt and sweat and stained like hell?


----------



## muwaji

When can u get this mouse in europe?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treach*
> 
> Isnt your pad like 10 years old, full of dirt and sweat and stained like hell?


No, it's not. I wash it every few months. It's still in pretty good condition.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Oh, that's interesting.
> 
> @optimisTGO could post a screenshot of your xvelocity after a fast swipe using microe's program?
> 
> And if anyone else has a light colored mouse pad (especially a blue supermat) could you do the same please?
> 
> There is a clear difference on mine for my blue supermat vs a darker pad. Which demonstrates the problems I'm feeling ingame.
> 
> Dark gigabyte pad:
> 
> 
> Blue supermat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even though the difference on the graphs may seem slight, it's very obvious to me in game.


Something like this?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Something like this?


Yeah, thanks.


----------



## trhead

Does anyone know why mouse 5 side button randomly stops working? PC restart fixes the problem but then it stops again when I alt-tab from Borderlands 2. Only Chrome and BL2 were open.

Its a great mouse btw. Good job guys.


----------



## Jonagold

I did some testing on MouseTester:

1st run on black QCK+





2nd run on Razer Goliathus Speed Edition





I am not too happy with the performance though lots of randomness, maybe my product is faulty?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I am not too happy with the performance though lots of randomness, maybe my product is faulty?


Do you mean you're not happy with the performance in game? The tracking feels random/inconsistent in game?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Do you mean you're not happy with the performance in game? The tracking feels random/inconsistent in game?


Yes, that is the reason I started testing.. I felt that something was off and was struggling to find the correct sensitivity level..

I did some test with slower speed on Full-black new QCK+:


----------



## Jonagold

Logitech g100s 500cpi


Finalmouse 2015 450cpi try2


Finalmouse 2015 450cpi try1


Seems like this odd behavior is happening only sometimes.. Now It hasn't happened for my last 4 tries.. I would call them sensor stability issues..


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Are both the LEDs on your mouse working?

My 2nd FM felt really inconsistent/"loose" in game, and I noticed later that the rear LED was off, indicating a broken mouse.

This is what the graph looked like for that one:


----------



## trhead

Well looks like mouse5 button is completely dead. I'll try it in a different PC.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Well looks like mouse5 button is completely dead. I'll try it in a different PC.


Hey Trhead,

If that is the case on a different PC as well then please feel free to contact [email protected] any hardware defect is covered for 3 years by your warranty. If it does work on a different PC you should still contact us for troubleshooting. Sensor instability, tracking issues due to hardware defects, switch defects are all covered by our 3 year warranty for anyone who may run into a faulty unit. The best way to troubleshoot a sensor first is to test it only multiple PC,s , applications, with no other USB input devices plugged in that may conflict. Drivers of other mice are also recommended to be uninstalled.

On a side note, many have been wondering about europe availability and launch. We will be launching some day this week, and retailers apart from the website and AMAZON will be receiving units within 4-7 weeks.

Kind regards,
Jude


----------



## trhead

FinalmouseJude: Ok no problem, thanks. I'm kinda confused because the button worked for the first 10 min or so.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Are both the LEDs on your mouse working?
> 
> My 2nd FM felt really inconsistent/"loose" in game, and I noticed later that the rear LED was off, indicating a broken mouse.
> 
> This is what the graph looked like for that one:


I see only one red led when watching the sensor without opening the mouse, should i see 2 of them?


----------



## popups

So what is the status of the Final Mouse company? New molds? Website? New MCU? Or is it going to be what is offered currently?


----------



## Zibv

How much will this mouse cost when it launches?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I see only one red led when watching the sensor without opening the mouse, should i see 2 of them?


I mean on the top of the mouse. The scroll wheel and logo should both be lit.


----------



## muwaji

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Trhead,
> 
> If that is the case on a different PC as well then please feel free to contact [email protected] any hardware defect is covered for 3 years by your warranty. If it does work on a different PC you should still contact us for troubleshooting. Sensor instability, tracking issues due to hardware defects, switch defects are all covered by our 3 year warranty for anyone who may run into a faulty unit. The best way to troubleshoot a sensor first is to test it only multiple PC,s , applications, with no other USB input devices plugged in that may conflict. Drivers of other mice are also recommended to be uninstalled.
> 
> On a side note, many have been wondering about europe availability and launch. We will be launching some day this week, and retailers apart from the website and AMAZON will be receiving units within 4-7 weeks.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Jude


Does this also mean the german and uk counterpart of amazon?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I mean on the top of the mouse. The scroll wheel and logo should both be lit.


Oh, I have only light on the logo, not on the scroll wheel at all.. How did I not notice earlier :S I have a faulty product indeed..


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Oh, I have only light on the logo, not on the scroll wheel at all.. How did I not notice earlier :S I have a faulty product indeed..


You're at least the 3rd person to get a faulty unit. It seems like a batch of products got damaged somehow.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You're at least the 3rd person to get a faulty unit. It seems like a batch of products got damaged somehow.


Yeah, they really should have some kind of quality control to prevent that from happening. At least I have heard good things about their customer support and a 3 year warranty.


----------



## Maximillion

Neither the scroll wheel or the logo illuminate on my unit. The scroll wheel never lit up to begin with and the logo went out after 5-6 days.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Neither the scroll wheel or the logo illuminate on my unit. The scroll wheel never lit up to begin with and the logo went out after 5-6 days.


And your unit is working fine? Can you post a screenshot of your xvelocity and say what color your mouse pad is please?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

European amazin availability will not roll out until a few weeks or so after launch.

Also LED burnout on the last batch is a known issue and does not relate to any sensor or performance defect. This issue was resolved with the LED supplier and those that encounter the issue can contact support for waitlisting on this new batch. The LED burnout rate was ~10% on the trial production units, which obviously is higher than normal.

Sensor and performance issues are at ~1%, so that is why we troubleshoot that more with individual cases since it is usually a local problem.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> European amazin availability will not roll out until a few weeks or so after launch.
> 
> Also LED burnout on the last batch is a known issue and does not relate to any sensor or performance defect. This issue was resolved with the LED supplier and those that encounter the issue can contact support for waitlisting on this new batch. The LED burnout rate was ~10% on the trial production units, which obviously is higher than normal.
> 
> Sensor and performance issues are at ~1%, so that is why we troubleshoot that more with individual cases since it is usually a local problem.


Are you guys going to drop the price of it? Something around 40~50usd would be ok.
And also, I live in South America but I don't want to pay 140usd on that mouse, what should I do? Are you guys going to do a virtual store and sell it there? Do you guys have any plans to sell it in SA?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> And your unit is working fine? Can you post a screenshot of your xvelocity and say what color your mouse pad is please?


Glorious Mat (black): 

PureTrak Talent:


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Glorious Mat (black):
> 
> PureTrak Talent:


The narrowness of your graphs make them harder to read/compare. Are you holding down the mouse button for a while before and after your swipe?


----------



## Maximillion

Whoops, that was probably it. Here's a retry...

Glorious Mat: 

PureTrak Talent:


----------



## GadYuka

has someone else noticed that this mouse have acceleration? I have tasted my sample and it has sufficiently noticeable acceleration.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GadYuka*
> 
> has someone else noticed that this mouse have acceleration? I have tasted my sample and it has sufficiently noticeable acceleration.


Based on gameplay and normal fps -acceleration test I have noticed no acceleration. Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veD1jSpv4s8


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GadYuka*
> 
> has someone else noticed that this mouse have acceleration? I have tasted my sample and it has sufficiently noticeable acceleration.


Maybe you are using wm_mousemove and higher CPI than your resolution.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Maybe you are using wm_mousemove and higher CPI than your resolution.


higher cpi than resolution does not matter.. some mouse just doesn't work as well with higher cpi, FinalMouse 2015 should work well with every cpi step..


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GadYuka*
> 
> has someone else noticed that this mouse have acceleration? I have tasted my sample and it has sufficiently noticeable acceleration.


Mine had exactly zero accel, which was a positive surprise. I'm pretty happy with the performance of mine altogether.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> higher cpi than resolution does not matter.. some mouse just doesn't work as well with higher cpi, FinalMouse 2015 should work well with every cpi step..


If you are using wm_mousemove, when you use a higher CPI than your resolution, the cursor will hit the edge of the screen before it repositions. You will have to use a lower CPI than your resolution. If you are using 800x600 you have to use the 400 setting.

When you use raw input you can use whatever CPI you want.

The pixel array on the 3310 is 900. There are limits to how well it will perform at higher CPI values. You have to be realistic. The DSP can only work with what it receives.

The AM010 has a smaller pixel array than the 3090, 3310 and 3366.

The 3366 appears to have a higher pixel array than 900. Which would not be a surprise considering the performance.


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Trhead,
> 
> If that is the case on a different PC as well then please feel free to contact [email protected] any hardware defect is covered for 3 years by your warranty. If it does work on a different PC you should still contact us for troubleshooting. Sensor instability, tracking issues due to hardware defects, switch defects are all covered by our 3 year warranty for anyone who may run into a faulty unit. The best way to troubleshoot a sensor first is to test it only multiple PC,s , applications, with no other USB input devices plugged in that may conflict. Drivers of other mice are also recommended to be uninstalled.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Jude


So the button also didn't work on my 2nd PC with Win 8 (main PC has Win 7), but it worked on my laptop (Win 7). And now it works on all 3 PCs! I think something on my PC broke it. I only had Chrome and Steam open at the time. And I only played some Quakeworld and Borderlands 2 before it stopped registering clicks.

Its all good for now. If it stops again I'll try to "reset' it with my laptop. Did you guys make mouse 5 code or whatever different than the other buttons? Its weird. Perhaps there are some compatibility issues with certain motherboards or setups.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> So the button also didn't work on my 2nd PC with Win 8 (main PC has Win 7), but it worked on my laptop (Win 7). And now it works on all 3 PCs! I think something on my PC broke it. I only had Chrome and Steam open at the time. And I only played some Quakeworld and Borderlands 2 before it stopped registering clicks.
> 
> Its all good for now. If it stops again I'll try to "reset' it with my laptop. Did you guys make mouse 5 code or whatever different than the other buttons? Its weird. Perhaps there are some compatibility issues with certain motherboards or setups.


Did you have any drivers installed for previous mice on any of those computers? Also what other USB input devices do you have plugged into your bus? Could be a power issue.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## awave

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Are you guys going to drop the price of it? Something around 40~50usd would be ok.
> And also, I live in South America but I don't want to pay 140usd on that mouse, what should I do? Are you guys going to do a virtual store and sell it there? Do you guys have any plans to sell it in SA?


I second this request. I just can't justify purchasing a mouse from an unknown company for $60-$70 no matter how good it is. (It's basically the same price as a Roccat Kone Pure Military, which is only a little heavier, has the same sensor, a similar shape, and is from a more established company. *Even if* the FinalMouse was way cheaper, i'd consider paying the higher price point for the Roccat simply because of their reputation.) It's their first offering. I've already thrown away way too much money on mice. They could probably gain more sales and build a reputation by setting the price point a bit lower. ($40-$50 seems comfortable to me, if not even a little lower. How much do they cost to make?) That'd also allow word to get out to more people since more would be using the mouse. More publicity=more $. (yes, people like adreN steaming and publicizing it is helpful also). They can always adjust the price point upwards later, or on their next offering depending on demand.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *awave*
> 
> I second this request. I just can't justify purchasing a mouse from an unknown company for $60-$70 no matter how good it is. (It's basically the same price as a Roccat Kone Pure Military, which is only a little heavier, and has the same sensor.) It's their first offering. I've already thrown away way too much money on mice. They could probably gain more sales and build a reputation by setting the price point a bit lower. ($40-$50 seems comfortable to me) That'd also allow word to get out to more people since more would be using the mouse. More publicity=more $. (yes, people like adreN steaming and publicizing it is helpful also). They can always adjust the price point upwards later, or on their next offering depending on demand.


I wouldn't spend $60/+ on this mouse considering its current state. I want a new mold design, full polling rate options, standard lens, configuration utility and non braided cable. Then I would pay $60 for the mouse. Otherwise I rather buy a FK1 or Avior 7000.

If they make a new mold I would like the thumb groove removed, the side buttons lowered and the right front straightened out (remove the finger groove/shelf). Since I don't have one I cannot say what else I would want in detail, but these things are the obvious changes I would make.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I wouldn't spend $60/+ on this mouse considering its current state. I want a new mold design, full polling rate options, standard lens, configuration utility and non braided cable. Then I would pay $60 for the mouse. Otherwise I rather buy a FK1 or Avior 7000.
> 
> If they make a new mold I would like the thumb groove removed, the side buttons lowered and the right front straightened out (remove the finger groove/shelf). Since I don't have one I cannot say what else I would want in detail, but these things are the obvious changes I would make.


To make the mouse perfect.

1. Shell that does not force you to put your fingers on a certain way (remove the thumb groove, it just feels uncomfortable)

2. 1000hz polling-rate

3. shape could be just regular ambidextrous, I haven't really noticed any benefits of ergonomic mice when best possible gaming performance is considered. The shell just must be big enough to be able to palm-grip with medium sized hands without fingers touching the mat..


----------



## dkizzy

I'm friends with Adren IRL (we worked at the same company before he quit to go full time CS again) and he shared his thoughts with me on this mouse. He didn't have anything bad to say about it but I think for the sake of preference he misses using his Zowie FK1. His contract with FinalMouse was negotiated a few weeks ago to be reduced since Liquid is sponsored by Razer. He's going to a DA Chroma soon.


----------



## Cyro999

Ah it doesn't have 1000hz polling rate?

500hz poll is very bad paired with 144hz screen

1000hz into 143hz screen is almost exactly 7 mouse polls per refresh.. but 500hz is ~3.5 polls per refresh. It moves 3 polls then 4 then 3 then 4 and it's noticeably uneven, especially with low motion blur setup.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ok, switching to a black mouse pad made a huge difference. The problem is still slightly there but many people might not notice it.
> 
> Other than this one problem that might be due to the custom lens, this mouse feels fantastic. It has almost 0 artificial processing/smoothing. I can't say with certainty whether my 3.0 is still better than this, which is saying a lot (have only found maybe 1 other mouse in the past 10 years).
> 
> And just to be clear, I said the mouse had *no acceleration* when I was testing it to try and figure out what the problem was.
> 
> It's quite the relief knowing that you CAN make modern sensors perform as well as the mlt04.


what makes this implementation of the 3310 so much better than the other 3310 mice you've tested?

i think you've tried a FK1 and KPM right?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> what makes this implementation of the 3310 so much better than the other 3310 mice you've tested?
> 
> i think you've tried a FK1 and KPM right?


KPM, fk1, avior7k, rival.

It's much more accurate/crisp/responsive. The horrible artificial processing that's in almost every other mouse that's not a mlt04, isn't present in the FM.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> KPM, fk1, avior7k, rival.
> 
> It's much more accurate/crisp/responsive. The horrible artificial processing that's in almost every other mouse that's not a mlt04, isn't present in the FM.


Well it could easily be the low weight of the Finalmouse. 74g is lighter as a WMO!


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Well it could easily be the low weight of the Finalmouse. 74g is lighter as a WMO!


lol. Not a chance.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's much more accurate/crisp/responsive. The horrible artificial processing that's in almost every other mouse that's not a mlt04, isn't present in the FM.


Sounds like something wonderful BUT again another product not available for anyone outside the United States. PLEASE don't go pushing Amazon which I despise immensely here, I wouldn't mind if the FM 2015 was sold at Newegg but it's still only available at that dreaded place.

Wish they would at least choose a few other retailers to distribute their wares besides one scumbag seller, it's like they sold their soul to Amazon for 100 years and the rest of us got shafted by it.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Sounds like something wonderful BUT again another product not available for anyone outside the United States. PLEASE don't go pushing Amazon which I despise immensely here, I wouldn't mind if the FM 2015 was sold at Newegg but it's still only available at that dreaded place.
> 
> Wish they would at least choose a few other retailers to distribute their wares besides one scumbag seller, it's like they sold their soul to Amazon for 100 years and the rest of us got shafted by it.


Hey Elrick,

It is my understanding that we will be rolling out internationally to various retailers in 4-7 weeks. The site I also understand will be going live within 24-36 hours, and the purchase button will automatically detect your geographical area and show an overlay box with all the potential retailers you can choose from. If there are no retailers for your area yet it will default to Amazon US.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Elrick,
> 
> It is my understanding that we will be rolling out internationally to various retailers in 4-7 weeks. The site I also understand will be going live within 24-36 hours, and the purchase button will automatically detect your geographical area and show an overlay box with all the potential retailers you can choose from. If there are no retailers for your area yet it will default to Amazon US.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Jude, I love you man, thanks for letting me know here. I am very excited to finally getting one (or maybe more) of your input device.

Would love PCCG here in Australia to have sole Retail of your fine product, hence get in touch with them as soon as possible because everyone here in Australia uses them for all their PC hardware purchases.

Glad you've finally seen the light that if you want to move more product across the globe then you have to start distributing to all the retailers out there, when it comes to selling your mouse. Looking forward to finally getting me a FinalMouse 2015







.


----------



## Maximillion

#JudeLove


----------



## Conditioned

Yea, I will be getting one of these if you can get 1k hz.


----------



## povohat

The shipping to Australia from Amazon for the Finalmouse is only $8.85 anyway. PCCG will charge you $15 minimum, which is baffling for a local retailer.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> The shipping to Australia from Amazon for the Finalmouse is only $8.85 anyway. PCCG will charge you $15 minimum, which is baffling for a local retailer.


Still would rather keep my money here in Australia instead of sending it off shore to purchase another item (trying to keep that down to a minimum). I've always had good service from them hence my loyalty will always be with them.

Mwave offers $9.95 shipping cost on any small item to my address here in Perth.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> lol. Not a chance.


Because you obviously made some objective tests that allow you to exclude the large weight difference as a factor that affects the tracking feeling.







I usually trust in your opinion about responsiveness and cursor feel, but don't let those other aspects of a mouse trick you.


----------



## muwaji

Shipping to expensive to europe. I don't really like how they hired these pros to talk about how good this mouse is, it really feels like these people were bought just to justify the price of the mouse.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Because you obviously made some objective tests that allow you to exclude the large weight difference as a factor that affects the tracking feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I usually trust in your opinion about responsiveness and cursor feel, but don't let those other aspects of a mouse trick you.


I've tested more than 20 mice. I'm pretty confident at this point in regards to the various aspects of mouse performance.

The aurora feels lighter than the FM, but the FM has a better sensor.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Sounds like something wonderful BUT again another product not available for anyone outside the United States. PLEASE don't go pushing Amazon which I despise immensely here, I wouldn't mind if the FM 2015 was sold at Newegg but it's still only available at that dreaded place.
> 
> Wish they would at least choose a few other retailers to distribute their wares besides one scumbag seller, it's like they sold their soul to Amazon for 100 years and the rest of us got shafted by it.


What don't you like about amazon? I love them... they almost always have the best prices, and they have free shipping both ways (if the product has a defect).


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> What don't you like about amazon? I love them... they almost always have the best prices, and they have free shipping both ways (if the product has a defect).


I think it's because he is in Australia.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> What don't you like about amazon? I love them... they almost always have the best prices, and they have free shipping both ways (if the product has a defect).


Amazon won't deal with Paypal hence I refuse to hand over my credit card details to another faceless corporation.

Paypal makes it easy to buy anything off the net yet Amazon, only want's my CC details consistently. No more handing out my card details and later burning it and having my bank freeze all purchases until I get a new one delivered.

Never use my credit card to buy off any website anymore, besides allowing Paypal to be in charge of all future purchases.


----------



## boogdud

So just get an Amazon gift card and use that...


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boogdud*
> 
> So just get an Amazon gift card and use that...


After what I just printed above, AMAZON ONLY wants my CREDIT CARD details to purchase their stupid gift cards







.

What gives with people always pushing Amazon into your face constantly?

Amazon will NEVER, ever, get any CREDIT CARD details from me, I hope I made myself quite clear here on this forum.


----------



## boogdud

Sorry, i didn't realize you weren't in NA, my bad. You can buy amazon cards just about anywhere (including the grocery store or gas station) with cash here.

People probably "push" amazon because it's typically the cheapest place with cheap shipping and great service...


----------



## RentoN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> After what I just printed above, AMAZON ONLY wants my CREDIT CARD details to purchase their stupid gift cards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> What gives with people always pushing Amazon into your face constantly?
> 
> Amazon will NEVER, ever, get any CREDIT CARD details from me, I hope I made myself quite clear here on this forum.


Amazon is great, because when you have prime you always get your packages shipped for free and get them the next day or one day after that.
But on my amazon (amazon.de) you don't need a credit card. If that was the only payment method for me I wouldn't be a fan either









'But like the guy above me said, you can buy the giftcards just about anywhere. And if not try ebay.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boogdud*
> 
> People probably "push" amazon because it's typically the cheapest place with cheap shipping and great service...


Wish they actually had "Amazon Gift Cards" here in Australia to buy, unfortunately I've never seen one anywhere here







.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Elrick,
> 
> It is my understanding that we will be rolling out internationally to various retailers in 4-7 weeks. The site I also understand will be going live within 24-36 hours, and the purchase button will automatically detect your geographical area and show an overlay box with all the potential retailers you can choose from. If there are no retailers for your area yet it will default to Amazon US.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Soooo, just to get an update on things: what's the actual status of the FinalMouse? What will I receive if I order one through Amazon right now? Does it have 1000Hz yet? Will it have when it is more widely available? Or are the Amazon mice still beta samples?


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Soooo, just to get an update on things: what's the actual status of the FinalMouse? What will I receive if I order one through Amazon right now? Does it have 1000Hz yet? Will it have when it is more widely available? Or are the Amazon mice still beta samples?


I would like to know this as well.


----------



## aLv1080

Their website is nice but I can't find a way to contact them. No messages, no email, no support...

I've already mentioned Jude (@FinalmouseJude) before, even tho he didn't answered me. I also sent a private message for him, no answers as well.
I really want to buy that mouse, even at 60usd+, but they don't want to sell it...

I'm *NOT* going to buy it for 140USD at Amazon.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Their website is nice but I can't find a way to contact them. No messages, no email, no support...
> 
> I've already mentioned Jude (@FinalmouseJude) before, even tho he didn't answered me. I also sent a private message for him, no answers as well.
> I really want to buy that mouse, even at 60usd+, but they don't want to sell it...
> 
> I'm *NOT* going to buy it for 140USD at Amazon.


Hello Alv,

I apologize Pm's have become a very hard way to respond for me. The website actually has a live support messaging system. And if no one is online to help you you can leave a message for the offline system. It should show up as a message box in the bottom right corner of the website. Make sure you allow javascript.

Kind regards ,
Jude


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Alv,
> 
> I apologize Pm's have become a very hard way to respond for me. The website actually has a live support messaging system. And if no one is online to help you you can leave a message for the offline system. It should show up as a message box in the bottom right corner of the website. Make sure you allow javascript.
> 
> Kind regards ,
> Jude


Alright









Was it working yesterday? I couldn't find it at all.
Well, I already sent it.

Thanks!


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Does it have 1000Hz yet?


I'm also curious about that.


----------



## fnade

How's the sensor placement ? is it way up, the same way as the Zowie FK1 mice ?


----------



## detto87

@Nilizum @ChinaRep
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Soooo, just to get an update on things: what's the actual status of the FinalMouse? What will I receive if I order one through Amazon right now? Does it have 1000Hz yet? Will it have when it is more widely available? Or are the Amazon mice still beta samples?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> The FinalMouse does not have 1000hz and it is pretuned at 500hz for optimal performance. I do not have any information on this being adjustable in the future,. All mice that are going to retailers at this point have been merged and converted to final production units.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fnade*
> 
> How's the sensor placement ? is it way up, the same way as the Zowie FK1 mice ?


Would like to know that too. Butt looks good, now need sensor placement measurement.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fnade*
> 
> How's the sensor placement ? is it way up, the same way as the Zowie FK1 mice ?





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## fnade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thunderbringer*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Thanks !
Looking at pic seems it's a bit to the front side moved, but not so dramatically as zowies.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> @Nilizum @ChinaRep
> 
> Would like to know that too. Butt looks good, now need sensor placement measurement.


I measured it at 65mm, based on a picture. Real measurement may differ. Mine comes in tomorrow, so I can give more accurate results.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I measured it at 65mm, based on a picture. Real measurement may differ. Mine comes in tomorrow, so I can give more accurate results.


Measured from the rear to the middle of the lense-> FK1: 73mm & FM: 61mm.


----------



## Nilizum

Yea, I got 73 with FK1 as well.



Based on this I kept getting 65. Not sure if I am measuring the shadow.

I got 64 with your picture.


----------



## timOC83

Hi over there!
@Jude
Is there a time frame for when this baby's gonna hit Europe?
Thanks.


----------



## Ihateallmice

I hope a version 2 eventually gets released without the damaged shell, a normal cable, 1000hz, etc.


----------



## y0bailey

The build quality is actually very nice. I was pleasantly surprised when mine arrived last week. I thought for sure it was going to feel cheap. It does not.

The cord is fantastic. Braided but very flexible. No complains. My Zowie EC1 EVO has the non-braided cord and I notice no difference between the two in real life.

I can safely say I notice zero difference in the 1000hz zowie vs. the 500hz Finalmouse from a "response time" standpoint. I also ended up having to use the Zowie in 500hz mode before COD:AW was patched (stuttering issue) and could never tell the difference in CS:GO. When they patched COD:AW I went back to 1000hz and noticed no difference. This is on a 144hz monitor and pushing 300 FPS in CS:GO. Considering the average human response time is 200+ ms, 1ms isn't going to matter.

Put me in the category of "500hz is perfect." Sure the option to flash a firmware to allow 1000hz would be nice...but I promise that I wouldn't know the difference in a blinded test study.


----------



## bobsacamano86

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *y0bailey*
> 
> The build quality is actually very nice. I was pleasantly surprised when mine arrived last week. I thought for sure it was going to feel cheap. It does not.
> 
> The cord is fantastic. Braided but very flexible. No complains. My Zowie EC1 EVO has the non-braided cord and I notice no difference between the two in real life.
> 
> I can safely say I notice zero difference in the 1000hz zowie vs. the 500hz Finalmouse from a "response time" standpoint. I also ended up having to use the Zowie in 500hz mode before COD:AW was patched (stuttering issue) and could never tell the difference in CS:GO. When they patched COD:AW I went back to 1000hz and noticed no difference. This is on a 144hz monitor and pushing 300 FPS in CS:GO. Considering the average human response time is 200+ ms, 1ms isn't going to matter.
> 
> Put me in the category of "500hz is perfect." Sure the option to flash a firmware to allow 1000hz would be nice...but I promise that I wouldn't know the difference in a blinded test study.


I'm real interested in getting this mouse and I'm also coming from the EC1 Evo. Really the only thing holding me back from ordering now is the price, in your opinion do you think it's worth the almost $70 price? Also how do you hold the mouse? I palm mine and I felt the like the EC1 Evo was really comfortable but I'm looking for something a little smaller and lighter which is why I'm interested in the Finalmouse and probably the EC2-a. Thanks.


----------



## y0bailey

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bobsacamano86*
> 
> I'm real interested in getting this mouse and I'm also coming from the EC1 Evo. Really the only thing holding me back from ordering now is the price, in your opinion do you think it's worth the almost $70 price? Also how do you hold the mouse? I palm mine and I felt the like the EC1 Evo was really comfortable but I'm looking for something a little smaller and lighter which is why I'm interested in the Finalmouse and probably the EC2-a. Thanks.


So I would classify myself more on the "palm" side of things but am probably slightly hybrid. This is sized very similar to the EC2. I started with an EC2 and wanted something bigger, so got an EC1. The EC1 is actually very comfortable but I too wanted to try out a lighter mouse. I got cramped with the EC2, and I haven't cramped up with the FM2015 yet. So you get the EC2 size, but it is slightly more comfortable for my grip and doesn't cause cramping (usually in the palm/ring/pinky area with the EC2). Again this is for my wider palm area of my hand with normal sized finger length, so everyone will be different.

As for the $70 price....it could be $10 cheaper to be competitive with what I can snag an zowie for. That being said I understand it is early in the creation of this mouse and am willing to fork over $10 extra. For something I have my hand on 20+ hours a week $70 doesn't bother me.


----------



## bobsacamano86

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *y0bailey*
> 
> So I would classify myself more on the "palm" side of things but am probably slightly hybrid. This is sized very similar to the EC2. I started with an EC2 and wanted something bigger, so got an EC1. The EC1 is actually very comfortable but I too wanted to try out a lighter mouse. I got cramped with the EC2, and I haven't cramped up with the FM2015 yet. So you get the EC2 size, but it is slightly more comfortable for my grip and doesn't cause cramping (usually in the palm/ring/pinky area with the EC2). Again this is for my wider palm area of my hand with normal sized finger length, so everyone will be different.
> 
> As for the $70 price....it could be $10 cheaper to be competitive with what I can snag an zowie for. That being said I understand it is early in the creation of this mouse and am willing to fork over $10 extra. For something I have my hand on 20+ hours a week $70 doesn't bother me.


Thanks for the reply, I went ahead and ordered one and we'll see if it I like it or not, hopefully it's as good as people have been saying. Thanks again for the help.


----------



## y0bailey

Excellent let us know what you think! Friday night I am putting mine through it's paces and can give a more detailed update.


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ihateallmice*
> I hope a version 2 eventually gets released without the damaged shell, a normal cable, 1000hz, etc.


Looking at your nickname you'll probably find something else to complain about.









- If the braided cable is (nearly) as flexible as Zowie's cables I see no benefit to rubber in any way.
- The damaged shell problem should be fixed by now.
- 1000 Hz would be a nice to have but it should not be needed by anyone except Lightboost users. And even then it's questionable to notice the difference. It's still awkward to not have the 1000 Hz option in 2015 though.

The price for this mouse is still way too high though.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> The price for this mouse is still way too high though.


That's debatable, considering it probably has the best sensor released to date.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> The price for this mouse is still way too high though.
> 
> 
> 
> *That's debatable, considering it probably has the best sensor released to date*.
Click to expand...


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That's debatable, considering it probably has the best sensor released to date.


MLT04 ?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *y0bailey*
> 
> I got cramped with the EC2, and I haven't cramped up with the FM2015 yet. So you get the EC2 size, but it is slightly more comfortable for my grip and doesn't cause cramping (usually in the palm/ring/pinky area with the EC2). Again this is for my wider palm area of my hand with normal sized finger length, so everyone will be different.


I get a cramp in my "ring" finger when using the EC2. The shape of that area of the mouse causes it. It isn't much of an issue with the larger EC1.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Looking at your nickname you'll probably find something else to complain about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - If the braided cable is (nearly) as flexible as Zowie's cables I see no benefit to rubber in any way.
> - The damaged shell problem should be fixed by now.
> - 1000 Hz would be a nice to have but it should not be needed by anyone except Lightboost users. And even then it's questionable to notice the difference. It's still awkward to not have the 1000 Hz option in 2015 though.
> 
> The price for this mouse is still way too high though.


In my opinion braided cables are used so companies can cheap out on cables. They can get away with braided cables because it became trendy to braid your cables on your computer so they look all fancy / high quality.

I don't like braided cables because the braid gets caught on the threads of my mouse pad, which starts to destroy the mouse pad and/or the braid of the cable. The most annoying thing is when the braid frays completely -- now you have useless nylon attached to your cable. Then your cable will split quickly after the braid is gone because the cable is thin/cheap. All this can happen sooner than you think.

I want to see a independent shell design rather than an OEM re brand. I understand they have to start somewhere. It is cheaper to sale something that already has a mold made. It feels like Final Mouse is not going to surpass Zowie Gear by using the Razer strategy, rather it seems like they will be a tier below Zowie Gear. Razer started out selling ODM products (from what I remember) until they made enough money to make their own stuff and grow into a large company with exclusives.

Blur reduction is an important feature to many people who spend a lot of money on a monitor. The experience isn't ideal without 1000Hz. Spending all that money on a monitor yet your $60 mouse doesn't have 1000Hz... What year is this?


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thunderbringer*
> 
> Measured from the rear to the middle of the lense-> FK1: 73mm & FM: 61mm.


Yea thunderbringer is correct. Finalmouse is 61mm. I suggest they really look into optimizing the position to 64mm or 65mm, 3-4mm higher.
61mm for this shape is too low.


----------



## detto87

Thanks for the info.
Too bad.


----------



## Nilizum

I may sound like I'm nitpicking, but the math behind sensor position doesn't lie. I'm really disappointed and quite irritated. Finalmouse advertises as 'professional', but doesn't use a professional formula. They got the shape down, weight down, clicks down, sensor down, but screw up on the most crucial part--the sensor position... Are there actually even engineers that design mice anymore? Razer gets sensor position. Logitech for the most part gets sensor position. Steelseries is oblivious of it. New companies are oblivious to it. Something so simple, but also so underlooked. Sigh... What a waste honestly. I'd sponsor the heck out of FinalMouse if they do another iteration with an optimized sensor position, because they really have something going here.

I mean, please! I'm handing out a competitive secret for ACTUAL performance, for damn free! Please take it! Come on FinalMouse, you guys are SO close.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I may sound like I'm nitpicking, but the math behind sensor position doesn't lie. I'm really disappointed and quite irritated. Finalmouse advertises as 'professional', but doesn't use a professional formula. They got the shape down, weight down, clicks down, sensor down, but screw up on the most crucial part--the sensor position... Are there actually even engineers that design mice anymore? Razer gets sensor position. Logitech for the most part gets sensor position. Steelseries is oblivious of it. New companies are oblivious to it. Something so simple, but also so underlooked. Sigh... What a waste honestly. I'd sponsor the heck out of FinalMouse if they do another iteration with an optimized sensor position, because they really have something going here.
> 
> I mean, please! I'm handing out a competitive secret for ACTUAL performance, for damn free! Please take it! Come on FinalMouse, you guys are SO close.


Firstly, this is an OEM shape. It hasn't been customized at all.

Secondly, why do you think sensor positioning is the most crucial part of a mouse?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I may sound like I'm nitpicking, but the math behind sensor position doesn't lie. I'm really disappointed and quite irritated. Finalmouse advertises as 'professional', but doesn't use a professional formula. They got the shape down, weight down, clicks down, sensor down, but screw up on the most crucial part--the sensor position... Are there actually even engineers that design mice anymore? Razer gets sensor position. Logitech for the most part gets sensor position. Steelseries is oblivious of it. New companies are oblivious to it. Something so simple, but also so underlooked. Sigh... What a waste honestly. I'd sponsor the heck out of FinalMouse if they do another iteration with an optimized sensor position, because they really have something going here.
> 
> I mean, please! I'm handing out a competitive secret for ACTUAL performance, for damn free! Please take it! Come on FinalMouse, you guys are SO close.


Hello Nizilium,

I have actually read your sensor position thread on this forum. However the fact is there are many individuals that do not have their palms up against the back of the mouse when they game, and the range of variance for them is inconsistent as well. This mere fact means that there is no perfect position for all users. Instead a better path of thought to go down is to optimize the position for the vast majority whose palms are against the butt of the mouse.

And to do this it actually isn't efficient to look at the wrist in relation to anything, but rather where the middle of the thumb is placed on the mouse, because the thumb is where the majority of kinetic energy is being released onto the motion of the mouse. (It also is a very good general indicator of grip position since everyones thumb is basically in the same half inch area).

You can test this for yourself by adjusting where your thumb is positioned and you can feel that the motion of the mouse is greatly affected. This is because our neuromuscular control is incredibly high (and sensitive) with our opposable thumbs.

In my (and my colleagues) personal opinion, as long as the sensor position is basically inline with the middle of the top joint of your thumb where the majority of kinetic energy and neuromuscular control is being initiated, then it is going to be more than optimal. And almost every mouse I've ever used is fine in this regard because they basically place it somewhere in the center of the grip where the thumb is going to be. There are a few mice that have sensors farther up, but this only creates a discrepancy between your neuromuscular control and the sensor.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: popups



Originally Posted by *popups* 

I get a cramp in my "ring" finger when using the EC2. The shape of that area of the mouse causes it. It isn't much of an issue with the larger EC1.
In my opinion braided cables are used so companies can cheap out on cables. They can get away with braided cables because it became trendy to braid your cables on your computer so they look all fancy / high quality.

I don't like braided cables because the braid gets caught on the threads of my mouse pad, which starts to destroy the mouse pad and/or the braid of the cable. The most annoying thing is when the braid frays completely -- now you have useless nylon attached to your cable. Then your cable will split quickly after the braid is gone because the cable is thin/cheap. All this can happen sooner than you think.

I want to see a independent shell design rather than an OEM re brand. I understand they have to start somewhere. It is cheaper to sale something that already has a mold made. It feels like Final Mouse is not going to surpass Zowie Gear by using the Razer strategy, rather it seems like they will be a tier below Zowie Gear. Razer started out selling ODM products (from what I remember) until they made enough money to make their own stuff and grow into a large company with exclusives.

Blur reduction is an important feature to many people who spend a lot of money on a monitor. The experience isn't ideal without 1000Hz. Spending all that money on a monitor yet your $60 mouse doesn't have 1000Hz... What year is this?



Orochi 2013 braided cable is better than any rubber cable I've ever used. Thin, lightweight and flexible.


----------



## Nilizum

Hi Jude, thanks for replying.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Instead a better path of thought to go down is to optimize the position for the vast majority whose palms are against the butt of the mouse.


This is precisely what I base my research on. This is an orthodox grip.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> (It also is a very good general indicator of grip position since everyones thumb is basically in the same half inch area).


I too initially thought the thumb position is a general good indicator, but tossed that idea in the trash bin. This notion contradicts "position for the vast majority whose palms are against the butt of the mouse". Here is why it's invalid. What if the shape of the mouse is wider? What if the shape of the mouse is thinner? What if the user's hand is bigger? This all affects the thumb position when the palm is against the butt of the mouse. This becomes an inconsistent way to consider sensor position relative to "palms against the butt of the mouse", and instead the only fitting comparison would be distance from wrist. It's why I say finger tip grippers (especially those with bigger hands and longer fingers) void this, but not everyone is a fingertip gripper.

When I conclude the 64-65mm figure, i place STRONG consideration of "position for the vast majority whose palms are against the butt of the mouse". This figure has been reached through years of my own R&D with the similar shapesets that the FinalMouse sports. It's ODM, sure, however it's not much different from a LogitechMX510 shapeset, and they have optimized their sensor position. If the shapeset for the FinalMouse was a non-standardized mouse with a non-standardized butt, then I will consider more of your point, but as it stands I'm looking at consistent results, which thumb position did not produce. If I based my research on thumb position alone, then I am being selfish in catering a custom mouse for my own hand, and not for the general populous.



I'm going to use this image again. Look at the the line where "11.44" touches. It gets pretty steep there, indicating the sensor positioning along that is more sensitive. This is precisely why I say in the post that "every mm matters". Really, I understand things can't be super perfect, which is why my nitpicking stops when sensor position is 1 mm away from the 64-65mm figure for standardized shapes, however the FinalMouse is 3-4mm away. And with such a steep slope (graph), this just amplifies un-optimization.

disclaimer: the 64-65mm figure isn't the distance from the wrist, but instead distance to the butt of the mouse of various mice with optimized sensor positions.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Hi Jude, thanks for replying.
> This is precisely what I base my research on. This is an orthodox grip.
> I too initially thought the thumb position is a general good indicator, but tossed that idea in the trash bin. This notion contradicts "position for the vast majority whose palms are against the butt of the mouse". Here is why it's invalid. What if the shape of the mouse is wider? What if the shape of the mouse is thinner? What if the user's hand is bigger? This all affects the thumb position when the palm is against the butt of the mouse. This becomes an inconsistent way to consider sensor position relative to "palms against the butt of the mouse", and instead the only fitting comparison would be distance from wrist. It's why I say finger tip grippers (especially those with bigger hands and longer fingers) void this, but not everyone is a fingertip gripper.
> 
> When I conclude the 64-65mm figure, i place STRONG consideration of "position for the vast majority whose palms are against the butt of the mouse". This figure has been reached through years of my own R&D with the similar shapesets that the FinalMouse sports. It's ODM, sure, however it's not much different from a LogitechMX510 shapeset, and they have optimized their sensor position. If the shapeset for the FinalMouse was a non-standardized mouse with a non-standardized butt, then I will consider more of your point, but as it stands I'm looking at consistent results, which thumb position did not produce. If I based my research on thumb position alone, then I am being selfish in catering a custom mouse for my own hand, and not for the general populous.
> 
> disclaimer: the 64-65mm figure isn't the distance from the wrist, but instead distance to the butt of the mouse of various mice with optimized sensor positions.


Hi Nizilium,

No worries at all, this is an interesting topic to discuss.

There are many ways of analyzing the position, and Its awesome that you are putting so much thought into it. However at the end of the day, this analysis is all subjective because sensor position is all a subset of Neuromuscular control. And if you think about it generally, most individuals that are holding an object in their hands, their neuromuscular senses are going to be telling them "the center of this object is the center of its motion". While your analysis is very thought provoking with the theory of "less effort for movement vs more effort", the fact is a mouse could be 3 feet long with the sensor at the top and the grip at the bottom. You are going to get A LOT more sensor movement with less wrist effort there. This analog is why I disregard the notions of wrist movement vs position, because at the end of the day what matters most is "ACCURATE aim". And accurate aim as we know is simply coordination and neuromuscular control. So whatever aids in amplifying your neuromuscular control when it comes to sensor position should be implemented. And generally speaking having the sensor roughly in the center where the human brain perceives as the "center of motion for an object" in addition to the fact that its where your thumbs Kinetic energy is transferring, seems like the best bet.

This is a fun topic to discuss, because trust me, I have seen development at many other manufacturers, and there is no "lab test" that optimizes the sensor position to a 1-3 mm variance like you are describing. Its simply just a matter of neuromuscular control. And this just means keeping the sensor roughly in the center... As boring as that sounds.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hi Nizilium,
> 
> No worries at all, this is an interesting topic to discuss.
> 
> There are many ways of analyzing the position, and Its awesome that you are putting so much thought into it. However at the end of the day, this analysis is all subjective because sensor position is all a subset of Neuromuscular control. And if you think about it generally, most individuals that are holding an object in their hands, their neuromuscular senses are going to be telling them "the center of this object is the center of its motion". While your analysis is very thought provoking with the theory of "less effort for movement vs more effort", the fact is a mouse could be 3 feet long with the sensor at the top and the grip at the bottom. You are going to get A LOT more sensor movement with less wrist effort there. This analog is why I disregard the notions of wrist movement vs position, because at the end of the day what matters most is "ACCURATE aim". And accurate aim as we know is simply coordination and neuromuscular control. So whatever aids in amplifying your neuromuscular control when it comes to sensor position should be implemented. And generally speaking having the sensor roughly in the center where the human brain perceives as the "center of motion for an object" in addition to the fact that its where your thumbs Kinetic energy is transferring, seems like the best bet.
> 
> This is a fun topic to discuss, because trust me, I have seen development at many other manufacturers, and there is no "lab test" that optimizes the sensor position to a 1-3 mm variance like you are describing. Its simply just a matter of neuromuscular control. And this just means keeping the sensor roughly in the center... As boring as that sounds.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


I do not understand how you can say the analysis is all subjective. I agree it is subjective, but 3% subjective.

"3 feet long with the sensor at the top and the grip at the bottom. You are going to get A LOT more sensor movement with less wrist effort there. This analog is why I disregard the notions of wrist movement vs position, because at the end of the day what matters most is "ACCURATE aim"."

I do not understand what you are trying to say with this. If you are trying to plug in the value of 3 feet in the graph, then I applaud you for even bringing this up, as I was hoping someone might. The graph serves to show the slope at "11.44". 12cm is an average of the general mouse size, so proportions can be easier related by the user. My whole thread revolves around that slope. However I am not giving an exaggerated 3feet long mouse. I'm using realistic figures.

Lets take a look at the G500 from Logitech, and lets say you're right about thumb position. Bob has an average sized hand, except for his abnormally long fingers. His thumb is within the "half inch" of the sensor position of the G500, while his palm cups the back of the mouse with an orthodox grip. According to your thesis, he will handle the G500 better than the average user just because his fingers are longer? If thumb position is all it takes to optimize sensor position, then there will be no such thing as arc displacements, but arc displacements are a reality. Arc displacements are in relation to the wrist, not the thumb.

" And accurate aim as we know is simply coordination and neuromuscular control. So whatever aids in amplifying your neuromuscular control when it comes to sensor position should be implemented. And generally speaking having the sensor roughly in the center where the human brain perceives as the "center of motion for an object" in addition to the fact that its where your thumbs Kinetic energy is transferring, seems like the best bet."

What if the mouse is 110mm, and the sensor position is divided by 2, which is "roughly in the center". Standardized shape with an orthodox grip. Everytime the user pivots, the the disparity between angular movement and straight movement amplifies too much, meaning everytime the user does an angular swipe, the user tracks much less distance than keeping the mouse straight. This goes against accuracy and building up of properly coordinated neuromuscular control. I wrote my thread with the best possible insight in getting the best average (accuracy) for the general user. For this mouse length, only a finger tip gripper can void the discrepancies. I specifically wrote in my thread simple dividends by 2, just "placing the sensor relatively in the middle" does not work, because I knew a lot of people came to this primitive conclusion.

When I tested the FinalMouse, I considered the shape heavily and the nature of its butt. I swear to you Jude, if the numbers aren't fitting properly in your head, the 64-65mm figure ONLY " aids in amplifying your neuromuscular control", for the Finalmouse if anything, since that was the test at hand.

Restricting it to angular movement and sensor positions, I'd like to leave out kinetic energy because including weight of the mouse and hand strength which pertains to kinetic energy has nothing to do with the point of angular displacement.

The whole point of sensor position is to remove the discrepancy as close as possible, and given the steepness of the slope, 3-4mm away is a big deal.

EDIT: I do not mind arguing against the 64-65mm figure, (If you've your own figure for example, 63-64, or 65-66, etc) as that was my personal micro level R&D to reach that figure, but discrediting sensor position based on angular displacement overall upsets me =/. I'd at least like some numbers to back up your claim if you think I am wrong in thinking that way, and not just buzzwords like neuromuscular control.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I do not understand how you can say the analysis is all subjective. I agree it is subjective, but 3% subjective.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I wrote my thread with the best possible insight in getting the best average (accuracy) for the general user.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> When I tested the FinalMouse, I considered the shape heavily and the nature of its butt.


I think each of these statements show the subjective nature of the study. The entire basis revolves around a central notion of what you believe helps improve a users aim. I am just making a very generalized statement saying aim is a product of muscle memory and neuromuscular control. The same way there are professional tennis players who all have different racket grips and swing styles, each pro having developed their own muscle memory to deliver the best accuracy on the ball. And there are many different racket types with different weight balances, head sizes, etc... I applaud your study because with the insights they revolve around there are many details you fleshed out, and the data backs up your initial insights. I have no data to provide on the subject since I have not personally conducted a study of my own that revolves around my own insights. I am simply trying to point out the very fact that these ideas DO revolve around your notions of accuracy and aim. Its almost like recommending an optimal tennis grip for all tennis players. It all comes down to which "feeling" the player prefers. Personally I am very keen on feeling the sensor right in the middle of the mouse I'm whipping around. I also really prefer the weight of the mouse to be balanced around the sensor as much as possible. This helps my muscular control.

This will have to be my last post on the subject for tonight, but thanks for having the dialogue, and also for writing your initial thread to begin with. And apologies if I am speaking in generalities, I just wanted to share my own opinions on how I like a sensor to feel in regards to the mouse.







I think the subject is rather interesting.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Jonagold

The problem with FinalMouse 2015 for me is that the shape is not giving the user enough room to work with, the thumb-curve feels uncomfortable to me because it forces my thumb too high on the mouse.. Also when gripping comfortably the mouse with a palm grip, the sensor angle is no more lined up with your wrist but you need to bend your wrist to the left to get an accurate movement when doing longer swipes with your whole hand.. Best shape for most people is still ambidextrous.

I have moved back to Logitech g100s only because of the shape. I have found out that simple shapes are the best.

Good sensor, delayless responsive clicks, Big simple ambidextrous shape, Light weight and good weight balance = perfect mouse for everyone..


----------



## Nilizum

I just want to say one more time, because sometimes I may not be clear.

A lot of times people prefer sensor positions in the 'middle' of the mouse, because for a while the market's major production mice have had sensors in the "middle", however their dimensions and shape tailors a certain way., and people just think "middle" is the answer because it felt right for the longest time, because companies like Logitech and Razer with their flagship mice (MX510 line/Deathadder) did sensor position correct. I am here to say there's a way to mathematically discern why people feel the way they do, and it is less of a generalized ideology when delved into.

*Mice have different lengths. 128, 124, 120, 117. These are popular lengths. Putting the sensor position in the middle of these yields different arc displacements. Divide each of those 4 numbers by 2 and you get different results. I think people get confused and they think of the sensor position relative to the mouse, but in reality it is the sensor position relative to the hand from the wrist, since that's the pivot point. There's no way around that, unless one's hand doesn't operate conventionally via joints.

Hand length has nothing to do with optimal sensor position, as the pivot point is from the wrist, not fingers. In respect to that, hand width may alter the 65mm figure, because the contact points of the palm are initialized at different positions, but I have not tested this on a big enough group yet.

65mm is a result from studying the most popular mice with a fitting tailored towards what people usually like. The popularly fitted mice include: Deathadder, MX510 line, WMO, Steelseries ambidextrous line, IE 3.0, and IO 1.1A. I want to say the Imperator/Finalmouse OEM shape fits that of a MX510 line, just a nicely cut down version of it. What did these mice have in common? Butt style and slopes that didn't stray too far, and a 65mm figure that optimized on these mice. Again, I can't speak for mice that do not fit in this conventional manner, like the G9x or Abyssus. 65mm can be implied based on the style of the butt, width of the mouse, etc. It's 3% subjectivity, and 97% R&D. I am being realistic here, not chasing 99-100%.

Based on my research, since we're throwing the word 'discrepancy' out there, I want to say that sensor position less than 63mm and greater than 66mm start showing magnifying discrepancies, based on the nature of the slope I showed. Again, this is for the popular fittings.

Just wanted to make this clear.

---

One user from esreality posted here before about a sensor slider where the position could be adjusted on the bottom of the mouse. Genius idea, however the user got optimal sensor position range wrong because didn't consider it mathematically (user admitted this) and related it to things that didn't matter like holding a pencil or something...

---
@Jude
"Personally I am very keen on feeling the sensor right in the middle of the mouse I'm whipping around."

You keep saying this and re-wording this, and I totally agree. To me, it translates as a range, and the purpose of my research is to define that range.
---
I may sound a bit cocky here, but I stand by this:
Proper development of a mice should ALWAYS follow this process.
Shape -> sensor position -> PCB design, because only the sensor position can derive from shape, and only PCB design can derive from the sensor position blueprinted in accordance with shape. I see a lot of companies do Shape -> PCB and the result is some weird sensor placement that is detrimental to performance.
---
I think it is hilarious how the members of the mice forum here love to nitpick about stupid discrepancies like laser mouse with their acceleration, or max PCS, or 'smoothing-a-la-roach', or click latency, where if a total averaged discrepancy of impact to performance, sensor position beats all of that, however this aspect is widely ignored. Not saying none of those matter, but there's a priority to everything, right?


----------



## Junki3e

Nothing is perfect in this world, thats all I can say.


----------



## a_ak57

Something I've been wondering...I assume the company is called Finalmouse, so that means this is the "2015" model? Do you guys plan to release other stuff and call them "2016" or whatever? Also, I can't remember if I suggested it earlier, but I urge you to consider making a totally-not-a-G9x mouse. Many people would love you, as it seems rather apparent Logitech doesn't care at all about bringing that shape back and even if they do it'll probably be like 130g or something.


----------



## detto87

I have to give Nilizum credit here. Sensor position shouldn't be overlooked anymore. It's for the benefit of consistency.

One can get consistent with a +15ms button delay or a +0ms button delay. The delay stays the same no matter the situation.
Same for smoothing. If it stays consistent it's sth you can and will get used to.
I'm not saying that smoothing is good or button lag is not a problem. Both should be taken care of. And too much of either is really bad of course (like +20-30... ms button delay or very strong smoothing that plagues some mice out there). But it's nothing that can mess up your ability in getting consistent with it.

On the other hand, when sensor positioning is not taken care of, then you will have a harder time getting consistent with it, because your wrist and your forearm movement achieve different distances on-screen. It feels inconsistent or "unconnected".


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I think it is hilarious how the members of the mice forum here love to nitpick about stupid discrepancies like laser mouse with their acceleration, or max PCS, or 'smoothing-a-la-roach', or click latency, where *if a total averaged discrepancy of impact to performance, sensor position beats all of that*, however this aspect is widely ignored. Not saying none of those matter, but there's a priority to everything, right?


What are you basing that off of?

I don't recall ever feeling like the sensor position greatly affected me, I have however been obviously affected by the other things you mentioned.


----------



## povohat

I switch mice a lot, probably not an uncommon habit amongst posters here. I measure out the same cm/360 for all mice I use, but often need to make adjustments, possibly as a result of sensor positioning. For me, it is most noticeable when I play Quake Live, because fast turns and close quarter rocket fights are generally consistent at the same cm/360, but finer wrist-based motion like strafe jumping, mid-range LG tracking and distance rail will feel very different.

I imagine some games (or playstyles within games) may have a heavier emphasis on finer aim adjustments (eg: CS angle holding), and some may be heavier on larger swipes or flicks (eg: QW/CPM). Sensor placement should be more noticeable in games that force the player to combine wrist pivoting and lateral movement often.

Amongst the mice I use often, the WMO and Kinzuadder are the most extreme in terms of forward/back sensor positioning. For me, it is hard to say which has a better feel because of the other variables involved (shape/sensor). I do appreciate the 'responsiveness' of the WMO's forward placement, as I can stay in wrist mode at closer distances, but also quite like the way the Kinzu effectively gives me a lower sensitivity for mid-range tracking, at the cost of dragging more often at closer range.

Different sensitivities will probably exaggerate or diminish the effects of sensor placement (eg: high sens players on average likely use significantly more wrist than a low sens player). Just sharing some of my thoughts. It certainly isn't a dealbreaker for me, but it is certainly a noticeable phenomenon.


----------



## Phos

Get rid of the divots on the rubber grips, those hole make it harder to get hand junk off.


----------



## y0bailey

So what is the best way to figure out my true DPI on this mouse? I want to make sure I am at the same sensitivity i have 600 hours playing at in CSGO. What is the best way to get this mouses true DPI?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *y0bailey*
> 
> So what is the best way to figure out my true DPI on this mouse? I want to make sure I am at the same sensitivity i have 600 hours playing at in CSGO. What is the best way to get this mouses true DPI?


Here


----------



## y0bailey

Perfect thanks. Mine measures right at 450 on the 400 setting.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> What are you basing that off of?
> 
> I don't recall ever feeling like the sensor position greatly affected me, I have however been obviously affected by the other things you mentioned.


I'm basing it off a % change, not based on 'feeling'. I am not r0ach. Read povohat's post. Just wondering, how many mice have you used? Like povohat, I've used a lot of different mice. Some 20+ maybe, and each one I document aspects about each mice. I just don't make an effort to post everything here on OCN. Like povohat, one of the main things I noticed was more or less wrist movement with different sensor position and the 'feeling' of lower sensitivity or 'feeling' of higher sensitivity based on the position of the sensor. I play games that combine wrist movement and lateral movements a lot, not just specific to fast paced games like QuakeWorld, or slow paced games like Counter-Strike. You will notice more of this phenomenon if you have more experience with different mice, and actually attempt to keep a unified cm/360 across different games. It gives one a new perspective on what aiming really is.

I can give you an example of why sensor position may make or break a player's aim.
Here are some givens:
-Sensitivity is not all preference
-Certain sensitivities define efficiency
With that being said, lets say 28cm/360, or 11inches/360 is a medium point, to where if sensitivity is lower than that, efficient movement is lost and user loses ability to track fast moving targets efficiently. This is in accordance with a user using an optimized mouse with an optimized sensor position. If it is higher than that, then user loses efficient precision and will lose the ability to hit small targets efficiently. Lets do more exaggerated numbers: User with 10cm/360 will struggle pinpointing headshots in CS, and user with 50cm/360 will struggle sticking the crosshair on a fast moving target where angular movements are large.
If 28cm/360 is indeed the medium point, then a sensor position needs to accommodate that to keep it 'steady'. If the sensor position is too low, it is not only a lower averaged sensitivity, but it is inconsistent to lateral movement. Lateral movement is the control variable, while angular movement is the discrepancy from the control variable. If sensor position is too high, it is not only a higher averaged sensitivity, but again, inconsistent to lateral movement.

Increasing or decreasing sensitivity does not solve this, because the discrepancy still exists. The only thing that solves this is an optimized sensor position that aims at making the discrepancy smaller. This logically aides the user in learning more concrete muscle memory because the basis behind it is consistency. Referring to the graph I exampled, because the slope at point "11.44" is so steep, the discrepancy of a sensor position that is 3-4 away from the target such as the FinalMouse2015, is worse than "5% acceleration" present in "laser mice". Averaged 6% variance with this product's unoptimized sensor position is greater than a laser mouse's 5% acceleration variance, and people nitpick about laser sensors a lot. EDIT: Actually it may be greater than 6% depending on how much the user pivots.

It is ultimately up to the manufacturer to do enough R&D to optimize the sensor position relative to the shape.

And before someone again says that even a 97% optimality can't even be reached, I want to question this for a second. People are saying this because they think that there's no "one-fit all". Well then ask yourself this, why do companies design the mice that they do? What determines side button placement? What determines the sniper position on the G402 to where it won't be too intrusive? It's a consensus production effort, and again, since the slope is steep (reference to the graph), 1mm away from the target, giving an error margin of 3mm to optimize is not farfetched.

---

I am sorry if it seems like I am just bashing on FinalMouse. Really I am speaking in general of every mouse company that doesn't produce a mouse that considers optimizing sensor position.


----------



## Nilizum

Honestly I feel a bit particular about FinalMouse2015 because I personally think the shape is amazing. OEM or not, at least FinalMouse is smart enough to pick a smarter shape. Fitted with the low weight and everything, it comes together very nicely... Just the sensor position... Damn it. Maybe if I weren't in a forum with a slogan of "the pursuit of performance", I wouldn't mind.

I guess I feel a bit too teased. I am writing all of this in a bit of frustration, again because I feel teased since a high standard of mouse has come so close--but in reality it's probably too late for FM--even if they come to terms with the notion of optimizing sensor position, because they've already published the mouse. Good effort though, and I hope people that don't care about sensor position can enjoy this product.

Also, thanks to Jude for at least replying to my insights, regardless of not agreeing to my research. A step closer to proper development of gaming mice.


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> User with 10cm/360 will struggle pinpointing headshots in CS, and user with 50cm/360 will struggle sticking the crosshair on a fast moving target where angular movements are large.


This has nothing to do with the rest of the post, but 50 cm/360 is almost double the sensitivity I was using a month ago and even with that old sensitivity, it was ez mode tracking fast targets.


----------



## kaptchka

@Nilizum..... do you seriously believe your study shows that moving the sensor up to that red dot from where it currently is (see picture) gives ANY KIND of a performance improvement?



I'm sorry but I read your "study" and its all a bunch of BS that stems from your ideas of what "perfect sensitivity" and "perfect grip" and "perfect arm motion" and "perfect motion" is...
I publish scientific articles for a living and it was hilarious to read all the nonsense. Its funny that FinalMouseJude of all ppl had to call you out on it. Seems like people here just see a bunch of fancy graphs and and toss out rep for it. I have been using the finalmouse and the sensor feels great and my aim feels amazing. And nothing you have shown in your thread proves that having the sensor on that red dot does anything. I hope people actually take time to read that "optimal sensor positioning thread" so they can understand just how opinionated it is.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> @Nilizum..... do you seriously believe your study shows that moving the sensor up to that red dot from where it currently is (see picture) gives ANY KIND of a performance improvement?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but I read your "study" and its all a bunch of BS that stems from your ideas of what "perfect sensitivity" and "perfect grip" and "perfect arm motion" and "perfect motion" is...
> I publish scientific articles for a living and it was hilarious to read all the nonsense. Its funny that FinalMouseJude of all ppl had to call you out on it. Seems like people here just see a bunch of fancy graphs and and toss out rep for it. I have been using the finalmouse and the sensor feels great and my aim feels amazing. And nothing you have shown in your thread proves that having the sensor on that red dot does anything. I hope people actually take time to read that "optimal sensor positioning thread" so they can understand just how opinionated it is.


Speak for yourself. Nowhere did I ever mention perfect sensitivity or perfect grip or perfect arm motion. I mentioned AVERAGES. The graphs concluded show a slope, and the 65mm with the +-1mm range around it serves as a general optimized point for a general set of mouse shape with aspects that are common to one another. In fact, the graph shows that the point specified is closer to the target value. I am sorry if you cannot read properly. I also think it's nice of you to indirectly call all those people idiots.

If I were so opinionated, then I'd talk about the sensor position in relation to my thumb. >_>

How about this Mr. Fancy pants that publishes scientific articles for a living, prove I am wrong. I will shut down the thread if you can prove something more conclusive than me.

Edit: LOL. I just read your FinalMouse review. You tested it mainly in one environment. CS:GO. I've tested the FinalMouse and similar mice to it not only in CS--but TF2 and QuakeLive--games that require a combination of lateral movement and angular wrist movement.

So you've tested the mouse only in a limited environment and say my thesis is BS. OK boss, real scientific there Mr. Self made publisher.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> This has nothing to do with the rest of the pos


It served as a single variable example to juxtapose extremes and its effects.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I'll reply in your sensor positioning thread since it's a bit off topic for this thread.


----------



## fnade

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I just want to say one more time, because sometimes I may not be clear.
> 
> A lot of times people prefer sensor positions in the 'middle' of the mouse, because for a while the market's major production mice have had sensors in the "middle", however their dimensions and shape tailors a certain way., and people just think "middle" is the answer because it felt right for the longest time, because companies like Logitech and Razer with their flagship mice (MX510 line/Deathadder) did sensor position correct. I am here to say there's a way to mathematically discern why people feel the way they do, and it is less of a generalized ideology when delved into.
> 
> *Mice have different lengths. 128, 124, 120, 117. These are popular lengths. Putting the sensor position in the middle of these yields different arc displacements. Divide each of those 4 numbers by 2 and you get different results. I think people get confused and they think of the sensor position relative to the mouse, but in reality it is the sensor position relative to the hand from the wrist, since that's the pivot point. There's no way around that, unless one's hand doesn't operate conventionally via joints.
> 
> Hand length has nothing to do with optimal sensor position, as the pivot point is from the wrist, not fingers. In respect to that, hand width may alter the 65mm figure, because the contact points of the palm are initialized at different positions, but I have not tested this on a big enough group yet.
> 
> 65mm is a result from studying the most popular mice with a fitting tailored towards what people usually like. The popularly fitted mice include: Deathadder, MX510 line, WMO, Steelseries ambidextrous line, IE 3.0, and IO 1.1A. I want to say the Imperator/Finalmouse OEM shape fits that of a MX510 line, just a nicely cut down version of it. What did these mice have in common? Butt style and slopes that didn't stray too far, and a 65mm figure that optimized on these mice. Again, I can't speak for mice that do not fit in this conventional manner, like the G9x or Abyssus. 65mm can be implied based on the style of the butt, width of the mouse, etc. It's 3% subjectivity, and 97% R&D. I am being realistic here, not chasing 99-100%.
> 
> Based on my research, since we're throwing the word 'discrepancy' out there, I want to say that sensor position less than 63mm and greater than 66mm start showing magnifying discrepancies, based on the nature of the slope I showed. Again, this is for the popular fittings.
> 
> Just wanted to make this clear.
> 
> ---
> 
> One user from esreality posted here before about a sensor slider where the position could be adjusted on the bottom of the mouse. Genius idea, however the user got optimal sensor position range wrong because didn't consider it mathematically (user admitted this) and related it to things that didn't matter like holding a pencil or something...
> 
> ---
> @Jude
> "Personally I am very keen on feeling the sensor right in the middle of the mouse I'm whipping around."
> 
> You keep saying this and re-wording this, and I totally agree. To me, it translates as a range, and the purpose of my research is to define that range.
> ---
> I may sound a bit cocky here, but I stand by this:
> Proper development of a mice should ALWAYS follow this process.
> Shape -> sensor position -> PCB design, because only the sensor position can derive from shape, and only PCB design can derive from the sensor position blueprinted in accordance with shape. I see a lot of companies do Shape -> PCB and the result is some weird sensor placement that is detrimental to performance.
> ---
> I think it is hilarious how the members of the mice forum here love to nitpick about stupid discrepancies like laser mouse with their acceleration, or max PCS, or 'smoothing-a-la-roach', or click latency, where if a total averaged discrepancy of impact to performance, sensor position beats all of that, however this aspect is widely ignored. Not saying none of those matter, but there's a priority to everything, right?






I agree with everything you have lately written, and i really agree that sensor placement should be maximally around 65mm's, i think lowering it to somewhere like 62mm's isn't so harmful as pulling it up to 67 mm's., it's just that those for example 67 mm's arent so harmful for players with bigger hands, that's why they don't feel that kind of impact, as small hand users does with 68 mm's...


----------



## Screwball

1000hz when?


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Screwball*
> 
> 1000hz when?


The finalmouse has honestly turned me into a fan of its 500hz implementation. I wanted to give it a couple weeks as my daily driver before I really jumped on the bandwagon, but like many others who own it have been saying, the sensor really is the best on the market, even BETTER than the MLT04 if I had to choose.
Here is my mouse tester results with the FM:



Aimbooster results are extremely good as well. Getting over 110-120 targets consistently on each attempt with really good accuracy.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@kaptchka What mousepad?


----------



## kaptchka

@MaximilianKohler BLACK QCK. I just got a 130 score 90% accuracy as well.


----------



## pox02

well this mine


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> The finalmouse has honestly turned me into a fan of its 500hz implementation. I wanted to give it a couple weeks as my daily driver before I really jumped on the bandwagon, but like many others who own it have been saying, the sensor really is the best on the market, even BETTER than the MLT04 if I had to choose.
> Here is my mouse tester results with the FM:


Sounds awesome.
I would"ve orderd one already, but it still is only availabe from Amazon US and the total cost for shipping it to Germany is ... steep.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Just curious, guys. Have they fixed the sharp edges on the bottom, loose buttons, and are the side-buttons easy to depress?


----------



## Shiotcrock

That Aim Booster thing is Hard....


----------



## thuNDa

@kaptchka what mousesettings?


----------



## CorruptBE

Pointless test is pointless imo.

Doesn't test a mouse or your aim imo. What it does test however:

Focus
Ability to prioritize targets
Okay okay, maybe with a € 5 walmart mouse you won't pull this of properly but other then that... (homebrew FK2 btw).


----------



## QLsya

Anyone else had any problems with theirs? The scrollwheel rattles on mines, and it's led stopped working after a day. The sensor also malfunctions on me sometimes on a clean black QCK. In-game I really don't like how it feels, gave it a few days but it's just not working out for me. I seem to remember someone mentioning that the LED's failing is indicative of a performance drop in the sensor as well? Not sure if it's me, as the mouse tester plots seems fine.


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> Just curious, guys. Have they fixed the sharp edges on the bottom, loose buttons, and are the side-buttons easy to depress?


No. I got mine the other day, and this is definitely not the thing everyone has been talking up. It has very sharp edges and bad skates. It's like dragging a cheese grater across your pad and the roll-off is terrible.


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QLsya*
> 
> Anyone else had any problems with theirs? The scrollwheel rattles on mines, and it's led stopped working after a day. The sensor also malfunctions on me sometimes on a clean black QCK. In-game I really don't like how it feels, gave it a few days but it's just not working out for me. I seem to remember someone mentioning that the LED's failing is indicative of a performance drop in the sensor as well? Not sure if it's me, as the mouse tester plots seems fine.


Sensor feels iffy, my scroll wheel is fine though. No rattle. Black Hien/mid. I give it a 9 out of 10 Thumbs Down.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QLsya*
> 
> Anyone else had any problems with theirs? The scrollwheel rattles on mines, and it's led stopped working after a day. The sensor also malfunctions on me sometimes on a clean black QCK. In-game I really don't like how it feels, gave it a few days but it's just not working out for me. I seem to remember someone mentioning that the LED's failing is indicative of a performance drop in the sensor as well? Not sure if it's me, as the mouse tester plots seems fine.


If it's malfunctioning on you in game, then you're just not catching it in mousetester.

Jude said failing LEDs are NOT indicative of sensor problems, but I'm skeptical about that because so far almost everyone with LED issues has had sensor issues as well.

I thought I remembered you posting a screenshot of your mousetester graph, but I can't find it now. Either way it should look like this: http://cdn.overclock.net/3/36/364dab07_Finalmouse-400CPI-500Hz-PuretrakTalent-1.png
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Sensor feels iffy, my scroll wheel is fine though. No rattle. Black Hien/mid. I give it a 9 out of 10 Thumbs Down.


What do you mean by iffy? Have you graphed it with mousetester?


----------



## detto87

czerro, could you show a mousetester.exe graph too? Maybe it reveals what's up with your sensor, maybe it's a bit broken like MaximilianKohler's.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QLsya*
> 
> Anyone else had any problems with theirs? The scrollwheel rattles on mines, and it's led stopped working after a day. The sensor also malfunctions on me sometimes on a clean black QCK. In-game I really don't like how it feels, gave it a few days but it's just not working out for me. I seem to remember someone mentioning that the LED's failing is indicative of a performance drop in the sensor as well? Not sure if it's me, as the mouse tester plots seems fine.


Hit up their support for a replacement. They answered and had a replacement shipped out extremely quick for me.


----------



## kaptchka

I haven't had any issues whatsoever with my FinalMouse nor do I see how anything could go wrong... The tracking is raw. I really enjoy how light it is. And I actually am able to perform more comfortably in game. Diamond 1 currently on League of Legends. That being said, if you are experiencing an issue with a mouse from the start then clearly something is wrong with that given unit. It isn't an accurate indication of how the mouse should optimally function. That should be a given.


----------



## QLsya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> If it's malfunctioning on you in game, then you're just not catching it in mousetester.
> 
> Jude said failing LEDs are NOT indicative of sensor problems, but I'm skeptical about that because so far almost everyone with LED issues has had sensor issues as well.
> 
> I thought I remembered you posting a screenshot of your mousetester graph, but I can't find it now. Either way it should look like this: http://cdn.overclock.net/3/36/364dab07_Finalmouse-400CPI-500Hz-PuretrakTalent-1.png
> What do you mean by iffy? Have you graphed it with mosuetester?


Not at my pc right now, but the graphs I did came out pretty much perfect like yours. Going to do some more testing when I get back. I know a lot of people liked the avior 7000 and I really hated the way that 3310 felt inside that, so maybe it's just me. Actually, the only 3310 i've liked is the fk1 implementation.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> Hit up their support for a replacement. They answered and had a replacement shipped out extremely quick for me.


Thanks for the suggestion, the only problem is I live in the UK, and I imported it from Amazon US. Not sure if they'd post one out internationally, unless they now have an EU warehouse stocked.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QLsya*
> 
> Not at my pc right now, but the graphs I did came out pretty much perfect like yours. Going to do some more testing when I get back. I know a lot of people liked the avior 7000 and I really hated the way that 3310 felt inside that, so maybe it's just me. Actually, the only 3310 i've liked is the fk1 implementation.
> Thanks for the suggestion, the only problem is I live in the UK, and I imported it from Amazon US. Not sure if they'd post one out internationally, unless they now have an EU warehouse stocked.


Yeah, I'd try using the official support on their site. [email protected]

I feel like they'd be willing to, but who knows I guess.


----------



## LegoFarmer

I really hope this company can release a v2 of their mouse with an improved shell of their design and fixing other issues mentioned. It would be the perfect mouse. I honestly don't mind if they have to add weight. 10-15g more is fine with me.


----------



## czerro

I'm a bit skeptical regarding mousetester, but I'll try it out if you explain to me exactly what I am to do.


----------



## James N

Can anyone tell me how deep the thumb indentation is and if the ledge on the right side of the mouse is similar to the one on the g400?

I am asking because that would destroy the mouse for me. I hated the thumb indentation on the g400, because i like to just tilt my thumb to activate mouse 4/5 (and that isn't possible if the dent is too deep). I don't like having to reposition my thumb only to activate the thumb button(making me lose control of the mouse for that moment) . Also the ledge on the right hand side was exactly where i would have positioned my ring-finger and it forced me to place it either under or over it making the mouse unusable for me (any shape that forces a certain position of your fingers is bad).


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> If it's malfunctioning on you in game, then you're just not catching it in mousetester.
> 
> Jude said failing LEDs are NOT indicative of sensor problems, but I'm skeptical about that because so far almost everyone with LED issues has had sensor issues as well.
> 
> I thought I remembered you posting a screenshot of your mousetester graph, but I can't find it now. Either way it should look like this: http://cdn.overclock.net/3/36/364dab07_Finalmouse-400CPI-500Hz-PuretrakTalent-1.png
> What do you mean by iffy? Have you graphed it with mousetester?


IFFY = not consistent. This is supposedly the most accurate mouse on the market with a bunch of warts...but it just seems like a terrible mouse with terrible tracking with a bunch of warts. It reminds me of the g500...


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *James N*
> 
> Can anyone tell me how deep the thumb indentation is and if the ledge on the right side of the mouse is similar to the one on the g400?
> 
> I am asking because that would destroy the mouse for me. I hated the thumb indentation on the g400, because i like to just tilt my thumb to activate mouse 4/5 (and that isn't possible if the dent is too deep). I don't like having to reposition my thumb only to activate the thumb button(making me lose control of the mouse for that moment) . Also the ledge on the right hand side was exactly where i would have positioned my ring-finger and it forced me to place it either under or over it making the mouse unusable for me (any shape that forces a certain position of your fingers is bad).


I would hold off on this, even if the sensor was optimal, the shell and skates are really bad. Tons of friction and constant scraping on the roll-off.


----------



## optimisTGO

I can't help but wonder what mice have good skates to you? I've used a FK1, FK, AM, EC1, Deathadder, Mamba, Krait, G100S, G402, Avior 7000, and a Rival and wouldn't consider any of them to have noticeably better mouse feet than the FM.


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> I can't help but wonder what mice have good skates to you? I've used a FK1, FK, AM, EC1, Deathadder, Mamba, Krait, G100S, G402, Avior 7000, and a Rival and wouldn't consider any of them to have noticeably better mouse feet than the FM.


Yea I have no issues at all with the feet on the FM and the shell has no quality issues at all for me either.

But I'm curious @czerro . You went and voiced your complaints on the FM in another thread and you said your dpi button was a tilt switch. The fm I have is just a single switch. You also said you got yours direct from FinalMouse, but finalmouse doesn't sell anything direct.

So my question is do you even have a finalmouse? Lol


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> I can't help but wonder what mice have good skates to you? I've used a FK1, FK, AM, EC1, Deathadder, Mamba, Krait, G100S, G402, Avior 7000, and a Rival and wouldn't consider any of them to have noticeably better mouse feet than the FM.


Hard pad? Zowie has really nice skates. They are like butter. These things on the Finalmouse are angular, super hard, not really rounded, and drag. I've owned many Logitech mice, and they have the worst skates. Mionix, despite how everything else on the mouse is quality, the skates also suck.. Rival? I dunno, SS seems to churn out garbage so it's never been on my radar.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Why would they need to add more weight? More weight's not
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *James N*
> 
> Can anyone tell me how deep the thumb indentation is and if the ledge on the right side of the mouse is similar to the one on the g400?
> 
> I am asking because that would destroy the mouse for me. I hated the thumb indentation on the g400, because i like to just tilt my thumb to activate mouse 4/5 (and that isn't possible if the dent is too deep). I don't like having to reposition my thumb only to activate the thumb button(making me lose control of the mouse for that moment) . Also the ledge on the right hand side was exactly where i would have positioned my ring-finger and it forced me to place it either under or over it making the mouse unusable for me (any shape that forces a certain position of your fingers is bad).


You can't tilt your thumb to hit the mouse buttons with this shell. You have to release your grip.

It's one of the things they need to fix with their next shell.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> I'm a bit skeptical regarding mousetester, but I'll try it out if you explain to me exactly what I am to do.


It's stickied: http://www.overclock.net/t/1535687/mousetester-software

After measuring the DPI, put the mouse on one side of the pad, hold m1 down and move it as fast as possible to the other side then let go of m1.

Then select "xvelocity" from the drop down menu and save the png. Upload here and tell us what mousepad you're using.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> IFFY = not consistent. This is supposedly the most accurate mouse on the market with a bunch of warts...but it just seems like a terrible mouse with terrible tracking with a bunch of warts. It reminds me of the g500...


I don't know if you've been paying attention to the thread but I've gotten 2 defective mice with symptoms similar to yours. From a look at your mousetester graph we should be able to tell if your mouse is defective.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

You clearly haven't been following the thread if you think there's a FM circle jerk going on.


----------



## Maximillion

The main appeal of this mouse is the sensor and weight. It's far from perfect but as far as tracking goes it's very good. There are obviously quality control issues though. My unit's LEDs do not illuminate and the bottom of the shell had an imperfection which did cause scraping (I actually had to "break off" a small piece of plastic around the edge. The mouse feet themselves are fine but could be a bit thicker. The side buttons are lackluster for sure, I pretty much have to treat this as a 3-button mouse outside of the desktop. I'd highly advise implementing ones that can be actuated by sliding the thumb up like on the G402 and Gladius in the next iteration. I'm not the biggest fan of the shell design, I'm just happy it's grippy. I could do without the lip on the right side. Also, I actually find the main buttons to be almost too sensitive, but that seems to be sort of a trend with these low button lag mice.

The FM15 is far from "garbage" but it's not the end all of any category either. It's actually sort of in the same boat as the Aurora. A good first crack at making a mouse but the general consensus is "yeah it's good, but next time...".


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *James N*
> 
> Can anyone tell me how deep the thumb indentation is and if the ledge on the right side of the mouse is similar to the one on the g400?
> 
> I am asking because that would destroy the mouse for me. I hated the thumb indentation on the g400, because i like to just tilt my thumb to activate mouse 4/5 (and that isn't possible if the dent is too deep). I don't like having to reposition my thumb only to activate the thumb button(making me lose control of the mouse for that moment) . Also the ledge on the right hand side was exactly where i would have positioned my ring-finger and it forced me to place it either under or over it making the mouse unusable for me (any shape that forces a certain position of your fingers is bad).


I cover the thumb indent and not being able to roll to activate in my review: http://youtu.be/4XaCbC81NR8
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Hard pad? Zowie has really nice skates. They are like butter. These things on the Finalmouse are angular, super hard, not really rounded, and drag. I've owned many Logitech mice, and they have the worst skates. Mionix, despite how everything else on the mouse is quality, the skates also suck.. Rival? I dunno, SS seems to churn out garbage so it's never been on my radar.


What kind of pad do you use? Which color?
I had no complaints with the performance of the mouse and it did glide pretty well on my UC 50.
They seem to be inconsistent in quality though, someone had the feet placed in the wrong spots iirc.


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You clearly haven't been following the thread if you think there's a FM circle jerk going on.


There's not? Wait. You are the same guy telling me to jump through hoops testing this mouse out, because it's probably defective, because your first 2 were defective, but maybe on my third try, i'll get a good one? My confidence in this product is swelling. Again, purchased on a whim and everything about it is terrible.


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I cover the thumb indent and not being able to roll to activate in my review: http://youtu.be/4XaCbC81NR8
> What kind of pad do you use? Which color?
> I had no complaints with the performance of the mouse and it did glide pretty well on my UC 50.
> They seem to be inconsistent in quality though, someone had the feet placed in the wrong spots iirc.


Pad is a brand new Hien/mid Black. It's the 'new' Hien.


----------



## kicksome

The Razer imperator had poor mouse skates as well


----------



## James N

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Why would they need to add more weight? More weight's not
> You can't tilt your thumb to hit the mouse buttons with this shell. You have to release your grip.
> 
> It's one of the things they need to fix with their next shell..


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I cover the thumb indent and not being able to roll to activate in my review: http://youtu.be/4XaCbC81NR8
> What kind of pad do you use? Which color?
> I had no complaints with the performance of the mouse and it did glide pretty well on my UC 50.
> They seem to be inconsistent in quality though, someone had the feet placed in the wrong spots iirc.


Thank you both. I really wonder why some companies think that something like this (in terms of shell design) would be a good idea. Now i know that i can skip this mouse for now (damn, there is always this one detail that breaks a mouse for me). I guess i will keep using my FK1 for now and wait for more mice to come out (or for them to fix it).

Ninox aurora and the FinalMouse were the 2 mice i was looking forward to. I really hope both companies get rid of the problems asap (both companies started off into the right direction though, so lets wait and see).


----------



## Bitemarks and bloodstains

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You clearly haven't been following the thread if you think there's a FM circle jerk going on.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should I think otherwise when my posts have been edited/deleted/and shoved into the finalmouse thread in a way that is not representative of what I was attempting to describe?
> 
> Edit: To anyone confused, Open a Finalmouse review on this forum. It will get shut down with an explanation that it belongs in the Finalmouse thread. Your review will be parsed down to the bone and re-instated as a comment in the Finalmouse thread.
Click to expand...

Or you can post a review in the review section.
http://www.overclock.net/products/finalmouse-2015


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Or you can post a review in the review section.
> http://www.overclock.net/products/finalmouse-2015


That review section is horrible.
Let us decide if we want to post our reviews there or here.


----------



## Curleyyy

Cannot unsee Fnatic and Destiny logo.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Or you can post a review in the review section.
> http://www.overclock.net/products/finalmouse-2015


Your way or the highway huh? That's going to end well.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@czerro whatever you decide to do, if you're going to post a review somewhere it's your responsibility to make sure you don't have a defective unit.


----------



## bobsacamano86

I got my Finalmouse today and I've only played with it for a few hours but I think I'll probably end up returning it and going back to my EC1 evo. The main problem for me is the ridge on the right side of the mouse where my ring finger is, it feels like I don't have as much control because of the ridge. The skates aren't that bad but I feel like my EC1 evo is much smoother, if the ridge wasn't there I could live with the skates.

I do like a lot about the mouse: it doesn't feel cheap, weight is awesome, good switches, tracking is good. If you don't mind the ridge then I'd recommend the mouse, but when paying almost $70 I want the mouse to feel perfect in my hand and unfortunately I don't get that feeling. I hope they come out with more designs with the same low weight and good sensor and I'll definitely be keeping an eye out on what they come out with next.


----------



## pox02

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> 
> 
> Pointless test is pointless imo.
> 
> Doesn't test a mouse or your aim imo. What it does test however:
> 
> Focus
> Ability to prioritize targets
> Okay okay, maybe with a € 5 walmart mouse you won't pull this of properly but other then that... (homebrew FK2 btw).


nice my turn


----------



## Oeshon




----------



## sonskusa

aimbooster challenge mode isn't a good test for a mouse, it's more a gauge of your own motor skills. stick with practice mode at a certain target/s and spam click targets for awhile, it'll give you a better sense of what you think about the clicks, shape, and weight. It can be used to test sensor performance, but in a way that is un-obvious, plus there are better ways to test a sensor.
also don't be shy about the target/s, you want to get to a point where you're not focusing on single targets but clicking on and tracking targets with your peripheral vision.


----------



## Axaion

To be fair to czerro here, the review "forum" is useless and clunky at best

at worst it makes me go "ill just find a review on another site"

Actually scratch that, it does the latter 90% of the time.


----------



## Oeshon

The reviews of mice on this section are the best part of this forum section. Please don't change something that is not broken and works well.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, I've never browsed the review section.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, I've never browsed the review section.


There is a review section?


----------



## Crizzl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oeshon*
> 
> The reviews of mice on this section are the best part of this forum section. Please don't change something that is not broken and works well.


Good job mods...


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There is a review section?


Id rather use yahoo answers than ocn's review section.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Id rather use yahoo answers than ocn's review section.


I'd rather kill myself tbh D:


----------



## detto87

Well, to be fair, a collection of reviews to easily browse through is kinda neat.
You can filter by manufacturer or directly search.

But it kinda breaks the forum in half. One forum general discussion and one (review)forum for questions regarding the mouse review.


----------



## Crizzl

Allow reviews in the forum and duplicate/link to the review thread in the review section. This way you get the advantages of both.


----------



## QLsya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> Allow reviews in the forum and duplicate/link to the review thread in the review section. This way you get the advantages of both.


+1


----------



## cheeselol

@MaximilianKohler, did a replacement FM resolve the tracking failure issues you were having?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I got 2 defective ones and I haven't received the 3rd one yet.. supposed to be here tomorrow.


----------



## timOC83

FYI
Another review is up on Youtube


----------



## pox02

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oeshon*


nice







Mine


----------



## Oeshon

^^ This thread will be derailed with this pissing contest app







. I should have noted I used the Kana V1 and not the FM for this challenge.

Although like someone stated before I do not think this app helps aim in fps, but it seems it could be useful for rts games.


----------



## FreeElectron

74 grams!


----------



## kicksome

So can you get different skates for this?


----------



## Rei86

So LevelCap did a review on thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_4zGU9uUz0


----------



## MaximilianKohler

A short update for the people who were waiting on me:

My 3rd FM has the same inconsistency. But I'm gonna test more over the next few days.



There's also no variance on my last 2 FMs from 1 mouse pad to another. Only my first one had improved tracking on my darker pad.

@Ino. do you consistently get the same clean/tight looking graph every time? Or did you post the best looking ones?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> @Ino. do you consistently get the same clean/tight looking graph every time? Or did you post the best looking ones?


I did a few screens, for reviews I usually take the one with the fastest swipe.
You can see all my pictures of the FM in this album: http://imgur.com/a/yPZyE

Also here are the screens for 400 and 800 CPI that I saved:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



http://imgur.com/ZqTblsH

http://imgur.com/9KOryXt

http://imgur.com/zO3TuwT

http://imgur.com/9leUGof

http://imgur.com/j5gVjw3

http://imgur.com/RdWLCw6


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Thanks.

So sometimes it randomly malfunctions below 5m/s, but most of the time your graph looks like a perfectly tight curve?


----------



## Ino.

Yes, pretty much that.


----------



## exitone

FM is the new razer


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> FM is the new razer


Meaning?


----------



## Crizzl

Referring to the QC issues I suppose.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

So after literally doing probably 50 test runs with this mouse using the mousetester app they all look pretty identical, here's just a couple but is this OK? I'm about to test my mionix 7000 against it


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Well kick my pet turtle and call me jugghead... I thought my mionix was awesome, (actually is vs my g700s) but look at this

















Compared to my post above with my new Finalmouse 15... yea I think I'll be sending my mionix back lol! Both use the same sensor I believe too! WOW


----------



## Derp

Has anyone explained why the Finalmouse's graphs are so clean? From Ino's reviews the only mice that seem to rival the Finalmouse are the 3366 in the G502 and the G402 but only when the gyro has taken control.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Meaning?


1) $70 is way overpriced considering what the mouse is.
2) http://finalmouse.com/ The website's marketing is even more excessive than razer.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *finalmouse.com*
> "*With a shape designed in collaboration with Pros* the FinalMouse's form factor provides the perfect ergonomic shape for high level competitive play. "


my ass


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Has anyone explained why the Finalmouse's graphs are so clean? From Ino's reviews the only mice that seem to rival the Finalmouse are the 3366 in the G502 and the G402 but only when the gyro has taken control.


Yeah, I wondered about that too.

Whatever mouse I use, my graphs look not as good as those mentioned.
FK1, G100S, Newmen GX1, ...


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> A short update for the people who were waiting on me:
> 
> My 3rd FM has the same inconsistency. But I'm gonna test more over the next few days.
> 
> There's also no variance on my last 2 FMs from 1 mouse pad to another. Only my first one had improved tracking on my darker pad.
> 
> @Ino. do you consistently get the same clean/tight looking graph every time? Or did you post the best looking ones?


Maybe it has to do with the SQUAL or your PC.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Has anyone explained why the Finalmouse's graphs are so clean? From Ino's reviews the only mice that seem to rival the Finalmouse are the 3366 in the G502 and the G402 but only when the gyro has taken control.


MCU?


----------



## LegoFarmer

my g502 graph... How??? Accel is off, 6/11 windows.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone explained why the Finalmouse's graphs are so clean? From Ino's reviews the only mice that seem to rival the Finalmouse are the 3366 in the G502 and the G402 but only when the gyro has taken control.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrWhiteRX7*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> So after literally doing probably 50 test runs with this mouse using the mousetester app they all look pretty identical, here's just a couple but is this OK? I'm about to test my mionix 7000 against it


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrWhiteRX7*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Well kick my pet turtle and call me jugghead... I thought my mionix was awesome, (actually is vs my g700s) but look at this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to my post above with my new Finalmouse 15... yea I think I'll be sending my mionix back lol! Both use the same sensor I believe too! WOW


I don't think it's known for certain that tighter or more "perfect" looking curves always equal better tracking. Especially not when comparing different brands of mice.

Also, two different brands of mice may have the same sensor but perform very differently due to other customizations the manufacturer makes. Firmware seems to be a big one.

All I know is that with my first FM I could tell in game that it was performing better on a darker mousepad, and the graphs I did with mousetester showed a tighter curve on the black pad, which certainly seems to insinuate that more deviations from the curve equal worse tracking.

But my 3.0 doesn't exactly have a tight curve either, yet it's pretty much the best sensor I've used so far. Also, the g502 on 400dpi did have a tight looking curve, but the ingame performance was not as good (not including the inconsistency that I'm feeling in game and seeing on *my* graphs) as the FM, or even my 3.0 that doesn't have a tight curve at all.

How they feel in game is what's ultimately the most important.

*EDIT:* Hmm, actually if you look at Ino's graphs he did with the g502, on 800dpi 1000hz it looks really artificial (double + perfect). 800dpi + 500hz looks normal, but it looks like it's basically just missing one of the double curves. I know "smoothing" is said to be added at specific dpi levels, but changing the hz shouldn't affect it, so maybe the lower hz just hides the artificial processing that logitech did to their mouse.

If the mouse defaulted to 1000hz and went as low as 400dpi, then that's the setting I used it on. We can see on that graph that it looks more "normal", but not anywhere near as tight as the FM, though the higher hz adds to that effect.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Maybe it has to do with the SQUAL or your PC.


squal?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> my g502 graph... How??? Accel is off, 6/11 windows.


That's normal for such a slow movement.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's known for certain that tighter or more "perfect" looking curves always equal better tracking. Especially not when comparing different brands of mice.
> 
> Also, two different brands of mice may have the same sensor but perform very differently due to other customizations the manufacturer makes. Firmware seems to be a big one.
> 
> All I know is that with my first FM I could tell in game that it was performing better on a darker mousepad, and the graphs I did with mousetester showed a tighter curve on the black pad, which certainly seems to insinuate that more deviations from the curve equal worse tracking.
> 
> But my 3.0 doesn't exactly have a tight curve either, yet it's pretty much the best sensor I've used so far. Also, the g502 on 400dpi did have a tight looking curve, but the ingame performance was not as good (not including the inconsistency that I'm feeling in game and seeing on *my* graphs) as the FM, or even my 3.0 that doesn't have a tight curve at all.
> 
> How they feel in game is what's ultimately the most important.
> 
> *EDIT:* Hmm, actually if you look at Ino's graphs he did with the g502, on 800dpi 1000hz it looks really artificial (double + perfect). 800dpi + 500hz looks normal, but it looks like it's basically just missing one of the double curves. I know "smoothing" is said to be added at specific dpi levels, but changing the hz shouldn't affect it, so maybe the lower hz just hides the artificial processing that logitech did to their mouse.
> 
> If the mouse defaulted to 1000hz and went as low as 400dpi, then that's the setting I used it on. We can see on that graph that it looks more "normal", but not anywhere near as tight as the FM, though the higher hz adds to that effect.


It's probably just processing, not "artificial" processing. It has to convert images to movement somehow.
As for the rest I dont know, but then the 3366 had awesome feeling for me too.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

I'm going to pull a crazy gaming session this weekend using both my FM and Mionix and see which one really feels better.. Just a quick dive in to insurgency tonight, though, this FM is niiiiiiiice. I'll report back


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> squal?


Surface quality.

This will explain best: http://www.google.com/patents/US8780045

Maybe the factory used a setting that isn't very compatible with your mouse pad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD35eZ9vFOM


----------



## MasterBash

Are they using omrons for side buttons?

Is the MB1/MB2 hard to press or not?

Button latency?

Are the mouse feet good?

If the mouse ever gets a 1000hz polling rate, I will most likely buy it.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> Are they using omrons for side buttons?
> 
> Is the MB1/MB2 hard to press or not?
> 
> Button latency?
> 
> Are the mouse feet good?
> 
> If the mouse ever gets a 1000hz polling rate, I will most likely buy it.


Not sure

Yes, they have pretty high actuation force compared to other mice in my experience.

Pretty low in my testing, about Logitech level.

I don't mind them, but some people have complained. The only mice I've used that I'd say have noticeably better ones are Zowies.


----------



## MasterBash

Apparently there is a lot of pre-travel on the LMB.

Also, they have no email or a way to contact them from their website, if one wishes to ask them questions.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> Apparently there is a lot of pre-travel on the LMB.
> 
> Also, they have no email or a way to contact them from their website, if one wishes to ask them questions.


The pre-travel IMO is a negligible thing. Obviously it shouldn't exist ideally, but the force it takes to get the button to it's intended level is so little that unless you hover your finger over the button with zero force on it, it will be pushed down to just before actuation.

It's definitely an odd choice to not have a contact e-mail on the site. The mouse itself at least comes with a sheet inside that mentions to contact [email protected] with anything.


----------



## timOC83

There's a mailing system on their website's desktop version. Bottom right corner. It's a little hidden.
I left them a message a few days ago, but have not received a reply yet.


----------



## LegoFarmer

I am so torn between the FM and the Zowie FK1/EC1-A.


----------



## MasterBash

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *timOC83*
> 
> There's a mailing system on their website's desktop version. Bottom right corner. It's a little hidden.
> I left them a message a few days ago, but have not received a reply yet.


I see, ghostery hides it, so I couldnt see it.


----------



## Conditioned

I just got the zowie ec2-a and I like it a lot. Also feels fantastic in the hand.

Ps Seems the reply didn't work this was in respsonse to #663.


----------



## p0ps

http://youtu.be/ZYyRWGIudvE A Russian mouse OG just reviewed the FM 2015


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> Apparently there is a lot of pre-travel on the LMB.
> 
> Also, they have no email or a way to contact them from their website, if one wishes to ask them questions.


if thats the only issue id just superglue a small piece of plastic under the mouse button that hits the switch, hard plastic obviously, that should get rid of the pre-travel









I did this on my IME 3.0, works wonders


----------



## Phos

I imagine it has some sort of hook to prevent the button from being lifted, perhaps you could add something there.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> Apparently there is a lot of pre-travel on the LMB.
> 
> Also, they have no email or a way to contact them from their website, if one wishes to ask them questions.


There's pretravel compared to something like the g502 but it's still less than the deathadder 2013. Plus if you keep your finger on the mouse button all the time, it will already be depressed to just before it's actuation point anyway.


----------



## y0bailey

I literally have noticed zero pre travel in use. It is a non issue in my mind. I had to look at it from the side to even see what people were talking about. I see it... But when gaming I don't feel it. I can spam pistols just as fast as any of myold mice


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *y0bailey*
> 
> I literally have noticed zero pre travel in use. It is a non issue in my mind. I had to look at it from the side to even see what people were talking about. I see it... But when gaming I don't feel it. I can spam pistols just as fast as any of myold mice


It's a slightly easier for me to spam with the g502 but the difference really is small. Overall I like the fm way more just because it's light and seems to track better.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Sold my Mionix to a friend today. The Finalmouse has definitely won me over these past couple days


----------



## Ellie1982

Thanks! What is it mean - OG? ))))))


----------



## Ellie1982

FailoMouse.... http://ru.aliexpress.com/store/product/NI5L-High-Quality-Motospeed-LED-6D-Optical-Game-Mouse-Mice-Adjustable-DPI-For-Laptop-PC-Black/932203_2051447367.html


----------



## y0bailey

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ellie1982*
> 
> FailoMouse.... http://ru.aliexpress.com/store/product/NI5L-High-Quality-Motospeed-LED-6D-Optical-Game-Mouse-Mice-Adjustable-DPI-For-Laptop-PC-Black/932203_2051447367.html


That mouse has the same shell but different internals and sensor. So it isn't the same mouse


----------



## Ellie1982

Yes, i know it. But it has the same shell and build quality - and its all for 10$... I get my FinalMouse - it has a horrible "china" build quality (and i payed for it 105$ on Amazon). Feel the difference...


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ellie1982*
> 
> Yes, i know it. But it has the same shell and build quality - and its all for 10$... I get my FinalMouse - it has a horrible "china" build quality (and i payed for it 105$ on Amazon). Feel the difference...


Performance wise the finalmouse is very, very good, if you get one without issues.

Cant say the same to random mice you find with the same shape.


----------



## p0ps

OG means"original gangster"
Reply to #673, ocn is broke


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ellie1982*
> 
> Yes, i know it. But it has the same shell and build quality - and its all for 10$... I get my FinalMouse - it has a horrible "china" build quality (and i payed for it 105$ on Amazon). Feel the difference...


Damn, I paid only about $39.00USD on my BST Aurora yet that got many kicks and put downs by everyone here on this forum. Yet when the FinalMouse 2015 appeared everyone praised and worshiped it immediately.

Good to see at one bad review of it despite paying over $100USD for it. For that amount of money better get KPM straight away.


----------



## Ellie1982

I sold my Aurora - it's horrible too (but cord and LOD are awesome, hehe). And i paid for it about 60$... What KPM is?







Roccat Pure Military? Yes, i can buy this bundle for 70$ and Avior 7000 for 81€ in Russia, and yes - they are more and more better.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ellie1982*
> 
> What KPM is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roccat Pure Military?


Correcttamoondo







.

For the VERY best version of 3310 sensor get the Roccat Pure Military because tons have bought it and have praised it's finish and quality, compared to most current input devices.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Correcttamoondo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> For the VERY best version of 3310 sensor get the Roccat Pure Military because tons have bought it and have praised it's finish and quality, compared to most current input devices.


That's up in the air, IMO. Zowie implements them nicely, as well. I like both brands.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> That's up in the air, IMO. Zowie implements them nicely, as well. I like both brands.


People have constantly said that zowie's 3310 implementation isn't that good so i dont think its up in the air.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> People have constantly said that zowie's 3310 implementation isn't that good so i dont think its up in the air.


There is nothing wrong with the 3310 implementation by Zowie, there are just some people who dislike it, but you'll find that for any mouse.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I dunno man, saying there's nothing wrong with it and giving it 5 stars in your review is going a bit far.

Maybe it's due to some performing better than others, but all the zowie mice I've tested have been pretty terrible.


----------



## fnade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> There is nothing wrong with the 3310 implementation by Zowie, there are just some people who dislike it, but you'll find that for any mouse.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I dunno man, saying there's nothing wrong with it and giving it 5 stars in your review is going a bit far.
> 
> Maybe it's due to some performing better than others, but all the zowie mice I've tested have been pretty terrible.


I must disagree with you Ino, and have to agree with Maximilian.
Since using Zowie FK1, and Avior 7k, and testing these two mices in deathmatch for several hours, zowies implementation somehow lacks in cursor precision, it was much harder for me to get headshots with zowie against enemies that were in far range, at first i thought it was because of sensor placement, that made it harder for me, but after testing against still standing BOT's in local server with highest game server rates. I finally understood that Zowie FK1 didn't have that sub-pixel precision that Avior 7k's 3310 had...
I'm not an expert in terms of modification of the unit, but i assume the 3200dpi capping could be the problem of that...


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fnade*
> 
> I must disagree with you Ino, and have to agree with Maximilian.
> Since using Zowie FK1, and Avior 7k, and testing these two mices in deathmatch for several hours, zowies implementation somehow lacks in cursor precision, it was much harder for me to get headshots with zowie against enemies that were in far range, at first i thought it was because of sensor placement, that made it harder for me, but after testing against still standing BOT's in local server with highest game server rates. I finally understood that Zowie FK1 didn't have that sub-pixel precision that Avior 7k's 3310 had...
> I'm not an expert in terms of modification of the unit, but i assume the 3200dpi capping could be the problem of that...


Well I perform best with the FK1 compared to all my other mice. I don't have a problem in terms of sensor performance with any 3310 so far. Maybe my lower sens is helping here, but they were all perfectly fine.

It's fine if you disagree with me there, it's obviously not for everyone. But for _me_ the FK1 is currently the best mouse out there (mainly due to shape and my grip) and I don't think its performance justifies calling the sensor implementation bad.

@Max: I gave it 5 stars because it's my personal favorite. Sure it's subjective, but that's just how I feel about it.


----------



## LegoFarmer

I really think the sensor implementation doesn't really change between the two. I think the feel of the mouse is a huge factor in how you perform with the mouse. I have talked to owners of both mice and hear mixed opinions between the two, each claiming one performs better than the other. I just think it boils down to how well the mouse fits you as opposed to true sensor implementation.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> I really think the sensor implementation doesn't really change between the two. I think the feel of the mouse is a huge factor in how you perform with the mouse. I have talked to owners of both mice and hear mixed opinions between the two, each claiming one performs better than the other. I just think it boils down to how well the mouse fits you as opposed to true sensor implementation.


I think maxkohler would disagree with you about that because IIRC he actually dislikes the Kone Pure Military's shape but considers the tracking better than the FK1 which he thinks has a good shape aside from being a bit too narrow.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I think maxkohler would disagree with you about that because IIRC he actually dislikes the Kone Pure Military's shape but considers the tracking better than the FK1 which he thinks has a good shape aside from being a bit too narrow.


This is true. It might just be what he is used, as well, I see many mixed opinions. They're both great, though


----------



## LegoFarmer

It is sort of like how I don't do well with the G502(best sensor), yet I'm way better with a rival which has the 3310 (Purchasing a zowie mouse next).


----------



## detto87

Rival's 3310 feels better to me than Zowie's FK1. Don't know why though. If a Roccat would put their KPM-3310 into the XTD shape I'd buy one, but not a shape that's as small as a Kinzu.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fnade*
> 
> I must disagree with you Ino, and have to agree with Maximilian.
> Since using Zowie FK1, and Avior 7k, and testing these two mices in deathmatch for several hours, zowies implementation somehow lacks in cursor precision, it was much harder for me to get headshots with zowie against enemies that were in far range, at first i thought it was because of sensor placement, that made it harder for me, but after testing against still standing BOT's in local server with highest game server rates. I finally understood that Zowie FK1 didn't have that sub-pixel precision that Avior 7k's 3310 had...
> I'm not an expert in terms of modification of the unit, but i assume the 3200dpi capping could be the problem of that...


The sensor still has all native values programmed into it, Zowie just doesn't allow the user to access them. Basically pre-set profiles.


----------



## pubst4r

i've got this mouse last week and loving it
maybe the only downside is the ergonomic shape i still need to get used to it
but i've read in the past replies in this thread that the mouse might be malfunctioning if all my lights are not on?
like the light behind the finalmouse logo doesn't light up since maybe 2days,
any reason why the led isn't lighting up anymore too ?

edit : i got contacted by FinalmouseJude saying it does not affect the performance & offering a replacement through the finalmouse support, so everything's good. i don't really care about the lights so i'll keep it for now


----------



## lunapt

currently own the zowie fk1, g402, kone optical pro, deathadder.
the zowie has the rawest feeling out of all of them, and the sensor SHOULD be right under the index finger. after all, it is your trigger... looking to get this mouse once they fix all the current problems.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lunapt*
> 
> currently own the zowie fk1, g402, kone optical pro, deathadder.
> the zowie has the rawest feeling out of all of them, and the sensor SHOULD be right under the index finger. after all, it is your trigger... looking to get this mouse once they fix all the current problems.


So the zowie is nice?


----------



## lunapt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> So the zowie is nice?


out of those mouses, yes. havn't tried the aviator 7k so I can't speak on their comparisons. The blue switches didn't take long to get used to, it's not bad at all for fps. wouldn't use it for heavy clicking games like osu or league though...

hoping finalmouse would make sensor right under the index finger and with a ergonomic shape that "doesnt feel weird but it takes some time to get used to".. been buying too many mouses lol


----------



## discoprince

anyone using this mouse for RTS/Mobas?

i really want a lightweight ergonomic mouse and this seems to fit the bill, however besides the outrageous price tag im worried about the pre button travel people have been reporting because that seems really ass for games where i click like a madman.

edit: i watched the video reviews from adren and qtpie on the fm website. all i can say after the fact is both of those dudes have some dirty ass mousepads, i don't know how the mice they use even track on them.

i keep my pads looking brand new, i just... i don't even


----------



## detto87

Pros don't care. They just play and get better. True story.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> anyone using this mouse for RTS/Mobas?
> 
> i really want a lightweight ergonomic mouse and this seems to fit the bill, however besides the outrageous price tag im worried about the pre button travel people have been reporting because that seems really ass for games where i click like a madman.
> 
> edit: i watched the video reviews from adren and qtpie on the fm website. all i can say after the fact is both of those dudes have some dirty ass mousepads, i don't know how the mice they use even track on them.
> 
> i keep my pads looking brand new, i just... i don't even


In terms of the pretravel distance, the FM is better than my deathadder 2013 but not as good as my g502. I pretty much only play FPS games, though, so I probably don't notice it as much as you do.


----------



## y0bailey

Well unfortunately for me... The shape of the FM did cause hand cramping in the pinky area and I am returning it.

Loved the weight. Loved the sensor. Just too narrow for my wide palms. I wanted to love it but I need ec1 sized mice.

That being said, I still recommend the mouse fully for small to medium handed folks


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *y0bailey*
> 
> Well unfortunately for me... The shape of the FM did cause hand cramping in the pinky area and I am returning it.
> 
> Loved the weight. Loved the sensor. Just too narrow for my wide palms. I wanted to love it but I need ec1 sized mice.
> 
> That being said, I still recommend the mouse fully for small to medium handed folks


Yeah I have really wide hands too. I don't get cramps so I'm still able to use this mouse without any problems, but I wish more companies would make wider mice.


----------



## Aventadoor

I saw in a youtube video that the scroll wheel fits poorly, and that it will rattle when you move the mice.
Is this true?
100% QC my bottom


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> I saw in a youtube video that the scroll wheel fits poorly, and that it will rattle when you move the mice.
> Is this true?
> 100% QC my bottom


Definitely haven't had that issue on mine. The only complaint I've seen that is justifiable about the scroll wheel is that it's pretty low / almost recessed. Doesn't bother me at all, but if you use the left and right clicking of the wheel it can take some getting used to.


----------



## optimisTGO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> I saw in a youtube video that the scroll wheel fits poorly, and that it will rattle when you move the mice.
> Is this true?
> 100% QC my bottom


I believe the rattling scroll wheel is directly related to the mouse wheel LED failure, and therefore is only on the defective units that are eligible for replacements.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *optimisTGO*
> 
> I believe the rattling scroll wheel is directly related to the mouse wheel LED failure, and therefore is only on the defective units that are eligible for replacements.


Ahhh that would makes sense


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> I saw in a youtube video that the scroll wheel fits poorly, and that it will rattle when you move the mice.
> Is this true?
> 100% QC my bottom


I've seen that review too. If you click on his written review he added an update because he talked to customer support and they told him he had a defective unit. They shipped him a new mouse the next day and it does not have any issues. Also, I think jude mentioned that the FMs purchased before the release date of the FM, it was available on amazon for a few weeks prior to its official release, had a way higher defect rate than the release version of it.

Also, no company claims 100% QC.


----------



## hajabooja

Hey guys,

Just received my Finalmouse today and I'm really enjoying except for this one problem. I'm sure there are posts about this, but I don't really want to go through the 70+ pages to find it and the search terms needed could vary.

Has anyone found a fix for the loose mouse 1 and mouse 2 shells? There is a lot of vertical play between the switch and the button itself. I'm sure there are people putting shims or something there, but has this been addressed by the company?

Thanks


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajabooja*
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> Just received my Finalmouse today and I'm really enjoying except for this one problem. I'm sure there are posts about this, but I don't really want to go through the 70+ pages to find it and the search terms needed could vary.
> 
> Has anyone found a fix for the loose mouse 1 and mouse 2 shells? There is a lot of vertical play between the switch and the button itself. I'm sure there are people putting shims or something there, but has this been addressed by the company?
> 
> Thanks


Unfortunately, I think it's just how the shell was designed. The only "fix" I've heard of involves taking the mouse apart and putting a thin piece of plastic between the shell and the switch, but I haven't tried it so I don't know if it works or how to do it.

If anybody has a solution, I'd also be interested in hearing it. The vertical play isn't as bad as my deathadder was but it's still a bit annoying.


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Unfortunately, I think it's just how the shell was designed. The only "fix" I've heard of involves taking the mouse apart and putting a thin piece of plastic between the shell and the switch, but I haven't tried it so I don't know if it works or how to do it.
> 
> If anybody has a solution, I'd also be interested in hearing it. The vertical play isn't as bad as my deathadder was but it's still a bit annoying.


I did this and it worked fine. Ended up just changing the switches though, put omrons in my rival and took the ss switches from the rival and put em in the fm--feels better than my plastic fix.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> anyone using this mouse for RTS/Mobas?
> 
> i really want a lightweight ergonomic mouse and this seems to fit the bill, however besides the outrageous price tag im worried about the pre button travel people have been reporting because that seems really ass for games where i click like a madman.
> 
> edit: i watched the video reviews from adren and qtpie on the fm website. all i can say after the fact is both of those dudes have some dirty ass mousepads, i don't know how the mice they use even track on them.
> 
> i keep my pads looking brand new, i just... i don't even


I play SC2 at masters level and haven't noticed any issues with that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hajabooja*
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> Just received my Finalmouse today and I'm really enjoying except for this one problem. I'm sure there are posts about this, but I don't really want to go through the 70+ pages to find it and the search terms needed could vary.
> 
> Has anyone found a fix for the loose mouse 1 and mouse 2 shells? There is a lot of vertical play between the switch and the button itself. I'm sure there are people putting shims or something there, but has this been addressed by the company?
> 
> Thanks


I haven't had loose buttons on any of the 3 FMs I tested.


----------



## Jonagold

My FinalMouse 2015 Stopped working, Logo is on but sensor does not register any movement, I tested it on another PC as well..
I was using my G100s for 2 weeks and when wanted to try the FinalMouse again, it didn't work anymore








Waiting for an answer from the FinalMouse but they already have promised to get me a new one because of a broken scroll-wheel-led..


----------



## RyuLAN

After re-testing my FM 2015, the biggest issue I have with it is that the DPI steps are not only inaccurate (which is common with some other mice anyways), but that it CHANGES.

By that I mean if I go in game and do a 360 across my mousepad with the 400 DPI step, and then reboot my PC and go back in game, the same distance on the pad does like 450 degrees. But if I play for ~5-10 minutes, it'll end up "back to normal", where it does a 360 degree turn across the pad.

Same thing happens if you accidentally change the DPI stepping and then set it back-- it's like it takes 5 minutes or so to "recalibrate" or something.

I haven't been able to figure it out and have stopped using the mouse entirely as a result. I can't have some rounds with a random 25% sensitivity increase.









-Ryu


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuLAN*
> 
> After re-testing my FM 2015, the biggest issue I have with it is that the DPI steps are not only inaccurate (which is common with some other mice anyways), but that it CHANGES.
> 
> By that I mean if I go in game and do a 360 across my mousepad with the 400 DPI step, and then reboot my PC and go back in game, the same distance on the pad does like 450 degrees. But if I play for ~5-10 minutes, it'll end up "back to normal", where it does a 360 degree turn across the pad.
> 
> Same thing happens if you accidentally change the DPI stepping and then set it back-- it's like it takes 5 minutes or so to "recalibrate" or something.
> 
> I haven't been able to figure it out and have stopped using the mouse entirely as a result. I can't have some rounds with a random 25% sensitivity increase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ryu


Does the lens rattle?


----------



## orcus286

I had this mouse all of 20 minutes today and the light on the scroll wheel already stopped working.


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RyuLAN*
> 
> After re-testing my FM 2015, the biggest issue I have with it is that the DPI steps are not only inaccurate (which is common with some other mice anyways), but that it CHANGES.
> 
> By that I mean if I go in game and do a 360 across my mousepad with the 400 DPI step, and then reboot my PC and go back in game, the same distance on the pad does like 450 degrees. But if I play for ~5-10 minutes, it'll end up "back to normal", where it does a 360 degree turn across the pad.
> 
> Same thing happens if you accidentally change the DPI stepping and then set it back-- it's like it takes 5 minutes or so to "recalibrate" or something.
> 
> I haven't been able to figure it out and have stopped using the mouse entirely as a result. I can't have some rounds with a random 25% sensitivity increase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ryu


yup had this problem too and surprised not more people mentioned it. when I was setting 800 dpi it was sometimes 800 dead on, I cycle through the DPI settings, get back to 800 and it's like 930.


----------



## Lular

Wow. It's unbelieveable that their quality testing team have not checked that each DPI setting is _consistent_ all the time. That makes the mouse unusable for competetive use basically, and I suppose that it means that Finalmouse must back to the worktable so they can fix this issue, and then they must replace it for all current users. Guess there's gonna be months before we see the mouse in Europe then.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello @RyuLAN,

I sent you an email through the support system ticket you opened. In case you did not get it it sounds like your OS is not detecting the mouse drivers (the stored memory on the hardware) on time.

I have seen this a couple times, its hard to trouble shoot whether it is a rare electrical issue or if it is a USB issue. I would double check on another USB port, preferably one on that back of the computer. Or just check on another computer. Please let us know via email what you find.

I have seen very few cases where it is an electrical issue and if that is the case we can RMA at that stage.

As for standard finalmouse units, there is no dpi change while toggling through the settings. The only time a "change" can occur is if the computer fails to recognize the mouse and the settings on memory are lost in the process. We have double checked units just in case as well and confirmed this.

And as always for anyone ever requiring support please keep in mind that contacting the support team directly is usually the fastest way to go about troubleshooting or rmaing/replacing a unit. That being said I will try and check my PM's when possible. And remember ANY manufacturing issue is covered by our warranty for 3 years. So if you do run into problems then please don't shy away from asking for assistance.

PS: Also, there are some exciting updates I will be sharing soon thanks too the fantastic feedback from everyone in the OCN community. Looking forward to continuous community engagement for years to come!

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> yup had this problem too and surprised not more people mentioned it. when I was setting 800 dpi it was sometimes 800 dead on, I cycle through the DPI settings, get back to 800 and it's like 930.


I have this issue exactly.


----------



## Maximillion

I'm pretty sure r0ach has talked about this same bi-polar cursor issue caused by switching DPI with other mice, forgot which one(s) specifically (Logitech?). It's really bizarre. You've got people here treating laser mice like the plague due to "inconsistencies" caused by accel yet things like this are just as problematic.

It seems that literally doing anything can cause such issues with a mouse (unplugging and plugging the mouse back in, changing DPI, changing profiles, rebooting your PC). It wouldn't be surprising if changing the lighting and/or disabling it on some mice caused some sort of calculable variance. I'm not specifically going at the FM here, but it seems that "modern mice" in general are more suspect to things like this.

Would it be right to assume that a mouse that has no togglable options at all (one CPI step, no multiple profiles, no weird macro-related processing, etc) would be more "stable" than otherwise? I only ask because that seems way more suited to "competitive" play in that it would eliminate any potential "noise" that could mean the difference between winning and losing.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I'm pretty sure r0ach has talked about this same bi-polar cursor issue caused by switching DPI with other mice, forgot which one(s) specifically (Logitech?). It's really bizarre. You've got people here treating laser mice like the plague due to "inconsistencies" caused by accel yet things like this are just as problematic.
> 
> It seems that literally doing anything can cause such issues with a mouse (unplugging and plugging the mouse back in, changing DPI, changing profiles, rebooting your PC). It wouldn't be surprising if changing the lighting and/or disabling it on some mice caused some sort of calculable variance. I'm not specifically going at the FM here, but it seems that "modern mice" in general are more suspect to things like this.
> 
> Would it be right to assume that a mouse that has no togglable options at all (one CPI step, no multiple profiles, no weird macro-related processing, etc) would be more "stable" than otherwise? I only ask because that seems way more suited to "competitive" play in that it would eliminate any potential "noise" that could mean the difference between winning and losing.


I never had any trouble like that with any mouse on my system, and the FM comes as close to "barebone" as you can get these days.

I'd suspect it to be a USB conflict too, but that is simply based on the fact that I've had mice that were stable on my gaming system but felt off on my work laptop (which is overloaded with stupid stuff)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

But I tested with my 3.0 and my 3.0 is always around 417 with microe's program.


----------



## thuNDa

it happens on the corsair m45 aswell, which also uses the 3310. coincidence?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I never had any trouble like that with any mouse on my system, and the FM comes as close to "barebone" as you can get these days.
> 
> I'd suspect it to be a USB conflict too, but that is simply based on the fact that I've had mice that were stable on my gaming system but felt off on my work laptop (which is overloaded with stupid stuff)


It very well might be a USB conflict in his particular case. I was just noting that it's not the first report of such an issue, regardless of cause. It just makes me kind of weary when a user can't, for example, change profiles without their in-game experience possibly being compromised. It's for reasons like this that many people avoid mouse software as a whole. But it's becoming apparent that even "plug-and-play" mice can be subject to irregularities.

Honestly a lot of "features" provided by current mice aren't trusted or do more harm than good in the eyes of a good part of this community. Adjustable LOD and "surface tuning" are prime examples.


----------



## sonskusa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> it happens on the corsair m45 aswell, which also uses the 3310. coincidence?


could be that they setup similarly, but haven't had this problem with my rival and ec2-a.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I'm pretty sure r0ach has talked about this same bi-polar cursor issue caused by switching DPI with other mice, forgot which one(s) specifically (Logitech?). It's really bizarre. You've got people here treating laser mice like the plague due to "inconsistencies" caused by accel yet things like this are just as problematic.
> 
> It seems that literally doing anything can cause such issues with a mouse (unplugging and plugging the mouse back in, changing DPI, changing profiles, rebooting your PC). It wouldn't be surprising if changing the lighting and/or disabling it on some mice caused some sort of calculable variance. I'm not specifically going at the FM here, but it seems that "modern mice" in general are more suspect to things like this.
> 
> Would it be right to assume that a mouse that has no togglable options at all (one CPI step, no multiple profiles, no weird macro-related processing, etc) would be more "stable" than otherwise? I only ask because that seems way more suited to "competitive" play in that it would eliminate any potential "noise" that could mean the difference between winning and losing.


The DPI in my KPM changes if I don't use the surface calibration (leave it default/off) and if I raise my mouse up so much that the sensor stops tracking (4-5" just to be sure/flip it around so the sensor points up). It's around 20% more IIRC. This resets if I change the DPI from the mouse buttons and it happens for all DPI steps and on all firmware versions I've tried. Never have had this issue with any other sensors.


----------



## povohat

I recall the Rival had a similar issue at some point
http://www.overclock.net/t/1432942/steelseries-rival/1100_100#post_22087987


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> it happens on the corsair m45 aswell, which also uses the 3310. coincidence?


That's why a mouse should be able to flash over USB. I said that to Justince.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1540359/new-mouse/60_20#post_23537330

It wouldn't be a surprise if he raised the money and this is what happened. However in his case he wouldn't offer any refunds or exchanges. You guys would have been stuck with that flawed mouse. At least with Final Mouse they offer RMAs. Although Final Mouse has been making stuff up...


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> I recall the Rival had a similar issue at some point
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1432942/steelseries-rival/1100_100#post_22087987


so this was a bug introduced by a firmware update back then.
i wonder how this has found it's way to various other mice aswell.
this might get nasty in here now.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> I recall the Rival had a similar issue at some point
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1432942/steelseries-rival/1100_100#post_22087987


Hello Povohat,

The finalmouse sensor does not utilize surface calibration code manually, and the Image acquisition system in the 3310's srom has already been updated and stabilized by pixart many months ago.

We have internally tested for this occurrence already and have found that the only cause for cpi adjustment is caused by signal loss due to USB conflict and electrical defect. Keep in mind that testing cpi with software programs is incredibly inaccurate.

Rest assured that changing surfaces or dpi stages have no effect on the CPI.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## y0bailey

I am currently trying out the corsair m45. Loving it's shape for my wider hands.

There was a firmware update immediately. Hopefully addressing any issues. I like the ability to update firmware. The sensor seems excellent... But even with all weights and screws out I miss the lightness of the simple mouse.

However... The m45 is no joke and I'm keeping it.


----------



## prosunza

hello guys ,

First of all, I'm a fps gamer ( especially csgo ) and I play medium to low sen in game 3.27 / 800 dpi /1000hz with G502. I really satisfied with G502 .My brother need a new mouse for fps gaming, he doesn't fit well with G502 . So i have been searching for a decent mouse for a while and I found that there are 2 choices which are FM2015 , EC2-A
Which one is perform the best ? Does 3336 perform much different than 3310 ?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Aventadoor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prosunza*
> 
> hello guys ,
> 
> First of all, I'm a fps gamer ( especially csgo ) and I play medium to low sen in game 3.27 / 800 dpi /1000hz with G502. I really satisfied with G502 .My brother need a new mouse for fps gaming, he doesn't fit well with G502 . So i have been searching for a decent mouse for a while and I found that there are 2 choices which are FM2015 , EC2-A
> Which one is perform the best ? Does 3336 perform much different than 3310 ?
> 
> Thanks in advance


EC2-A was a huge disappointment for me. I like my old EC1 eVo CL more.
EC2-A has worse clicks and also is really wierd to swipe with, which forces you to hold it a bit different then what would be natural.


----------



## prosunza

Does EC1-A has the same problem ? btw how can i purchase FM2015 in asia ?


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> EC2-A was a huge disappointment for me. I like my old EC1 eVo CL more.
> EC2-A has worse clicks and also is really wierd to swipe with, which forces you to hold it a bit different then what would be natural.


IMO, the clicks are a preference. If you like a click that has a light actuation force and it is important, I would get the finalmouse. Advantages of the zowie would be ability to tweak polling rate and LoD. As far as sensor implementation goes, I think they are similar, but I would say finalmouse wins in that area. From what I read, Finalmouse doesn't have stellar quality control yet, but their customer service really is phenomenal and that does make up for it incase your mouse has any issues. I'm a zowie fan, but if I had to recommend one of the two to a person, it would probably be the finalmouse.


----------



## Aventadoor

My biggest problem with Rival is the clicks.
Its simple terrible for guns like tec9, where clicks per sec matter aka spamming.
How is the FinalMouse in this regard?


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> My biggest problem with Rival is the clicks.
> Its simple terrible for guns like tec9, where clicks per sec matter aka spamming.
> How is the FinalMouse in this regard?


Its fine for me, although the switches feel slightly mushier compared to other mice like the DA 2013 ans SS Sensei. Still very spammable. The other issue that I have when I first got the FM is that somehow the buttons bottom out really fast, making it feel awkward. Its fine after you get used to it. The switches used in the Rival (SS switches) are also great when implemented in the sensei raw imo, great for single taps and spamming.


----------



## Swim

@FinalmouseJude I sent you a pm in regards to issuing an RMA, I believe I got a defective unit.


----------



## Bastard Wolf

Did you guys buy directly off the website or off from Amazon?

For some reason the "buy now" button from the official website is not working for me so I guess I have no choice. lol


----------



## Maximillion

I'm pretty sure the "buy now" button just redirects to Amazon anyway.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prosunza*
> 
> hello guys ,
> 
> First of all, I'm a fps gamer ( especially csgo ) and I play medium to low sen in game 3.27 / 800 dpi /1000hz with G502. I really satisfied with G502 .My brother need a new mouse for fps gaming, he doesn't fit well with G502 . So i have been searching for a decent mouse for a while and I found that there are 2 choices which are FM2015 , EC2-A
> Which one is perform the best ? Does 3336 perform much different than 3310 ?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Zowie's sensors have all performed pretty poorly for me.

FM is probably the best mouse you can buy right now *IF* you get a good one. But the performance varies quite a bit from mouse to mouse.

There's also the Kone Pure Military, Aurora, and MLT04.


----------



## lunapt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prosunza*
> 
> hello guys ,
> 
> First of all, I'm a fps gamer ( especially csgo ) and I play medium to low sen in game 3.27 / 800 dpi /1000hz with G502. I really satisfied with G502 .My brother need a new mouse for fps gaming, he doesn't fit well with G502 . So i have been searching for a decent mouse for a while and I found that there are 2 choices which are FM2015 , EC2-A
> Which one is perform the best ? Does 3336 perform much different than 3310 ?
> 
> Thanks in advance


800 dpi at 3.27 sens is 2616 true sens.

the top 20 csgo players of 2013-2014 has an average of 960. (400 dpi x 2.4 sens).. personally I run 2.51. your sens is high af.


----------



## prosunza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Zowie's sensors have all performed pretty poorly for me.
> 
> FM is probably the best mouse you can buy right now *IF* you get a good one. But the performance varies quite a bit from mouse to mouse.
> 
> There's also the Kone Pure Military, Aurora, and MLT04.


well I think FM would be the best option that suitable for me but there is no place to buy in asia









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lunapt*
> 
> 800 dpi at 3.27 sens is 2616 true sens.
> 
> the top 20 csgo players of 2013-2014 has an average of 960. (400 dpi x 2.4 sens).. personally I run 2.51. your sens is high af.


Oh i really don't know that . actually my teammate told me i'm low sen user. Thanks for your information


----------



## a_ak57

Your sensitivity works out to about 16cm/360, which actually is low by average gamer standards, but super high in the competitive CS realm (where someone known as a "high" sens player uses like 28cm/360).


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Zowie's sensors have all performed pretty poorly for me.
> 
> FM is probably the best mouse you can buy right now *IF* you get a good one. But the performance varies quite a bit from mouse to mouse.
> 
> There's also the Kone Pure Military, Aurora, and MLT04.


Zowie has improved a lot imo lol


----------



## Bastard Wolf

How is the click on the FinalMouse compared to huanos ?


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bastard Wolf*
> 
> How is the click on the FinalMouse compared to huanos ?


Omron switches have a lower actuation force than huano switches.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> Omron switches have a lower actuation force than huano switches.


That is a specific statement. There are stiffer Omrons and lighter Huanos.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That is a specific statement. There are stiffer Omrons and lighter Huanos.


I think it mainly depends on the shell more.


----------



## DivineDark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> I think it mainly depends on the shell more.


Absolutely correct. I replaced the Huano switches in my AM-GS with Omrons, and there was almost no difference in actuation force.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> Absolutely correct. I replaced the Huano switches in my AM-GS with Omrons, and there was almost no difference in actuation force.


Opposite with mine then. Put in D2F-01F inside and it's now the lightest mouse I own.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Opposite with mine then. Put in D2F-01F inside and it's now the lightest mouse I own.


i also just replaced the huanos in the fk2 to D2F-01F for somebody else, and he (kinda unexpected) went all silly out of enjoyment when he got the mouse back.


----------



## Melan

I also replaced huanos for D2F-01F in my FK1. Honestly, clicks became a lot better.

Edit: It's not like they were awful in the first place, but spamming AN-94 (for example) wasn't a pleasant experience. Same for Osu!, huano clicks were terrible.


----------



## a_ak57

Switches obviously make a difference, but click feel is also largely influenced by shell. With the FK1 for example, putting in the omrons of a spawn does not make them equal. In fact, I found the huano spawn actually still felt lighter than the omron FK1.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

My review.


----------



## DivineDark

I believe the FK1 clicks are lighter than my FK and AM. The shell is a bit larger, so the button leaves are longer. The AM-GS with Omrons feel better to push, but I'd be really surprised if they took measurably less pressure to actuate than the huanos.


----------



## Aventadoor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> My review.


You need to review the DA2013/Chroma, mices which are easly accessible.
Anyway, I have the same issue as you when gripping the DA, thats why I prefer the EC1 shape more.


----------



## detto87

I simply don't understand the Deathadder shape. I tried it multiple times, with each test a few years inbetween.

I cannot palm it, I cannot claw it, I cannot fingertip it. Ok, maybe fingertip it, but there are better shaped and lighter mice for that.
It's not good at all for palm grip and for claw there are obviously better shapes.

That's why I simply have to let that one slide. I was interested at first in the Finalmouse, heck, I was hyped after first reviews about the sensor. But the shape is a big no, the quality checks are horrible too. So, still WMO for me. Nothing comes close. And I don't necessarily mean the sensor here. I mean the shape.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DivineDark*
> 
> I believe the FK1 clicks are lighter than my FK and AM. The shell is a bit larger, so the button leaves are longer. The AM-GS with Omrons feel better to push, but I'd be really surprised if they took measurably less pressure to actuate than the huanos.


D2F-01F, they are basically a completly different story compared to the common D2FC's.
Due to their size(a bit higher than D2FC's), they fit like perfectly into the Zowie's, while that also means that the D2FC's shouldn't fit perfectly then, and have an increased pretravel, which itself results in higher actuation forces needed by pretravel alone.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> You need to review the DA2013/Chroma, mices which are easly accessible.
> Anyway, I have the same issue as you when gripping the DA, thats why I prefer the EC1 shape more.


I am. Been playing with the 3.5g for 8+ hours. God this mouse is horrible. One of the worst mice I've ever used.

Man... if FinalMouse can iron out the inconsistencies in their mouse they will have the best mouse ever released, *by far*. If not for the inconsistent tracking the mouse would be better than the 3.0/MLT04 in every way. The 0 smoothing is really apparent.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I simply don't understand the Deathadder shape. I tried it multiple times, with each test a few years inbetween.
> 
> I cannot palm it, I cannot claw it, I cannot fingertip it. Ok, maybe fingertip it, but there are better shaped and lighter mice for that.
> It's not good at all for palm grip and for claw there are obviously better shapes.
> 
> That's why I simply have to let that one slide. I was interested at first in the Finalmouse, heck, I was hyped after first reviews about the sensor. But the shape is a big no, the quality checks are horrible too. So, still WMO for me. Nothing comes close. And I don't necessarily mean the sensor here. I mean the shape.


I agree about the DeathAdder shape completely. The FinalMouse shape however, is much much better. It's lighter, it isn't designed for a specific hand size only. It doesn't force you to hold the mouse a certain way, and it doesn't have that horrible protruding front right lip.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> My review.


Nice, thanks.









The FM is pleasantly light. My unit has also some quality issues: two spots on the bottom scratched the mousepad - additional mousefeet helped and the right mouse button is ~0.5-1 mm higher than the LMB. Due to the tention (it looks like the stick that activates the switch is 0.5-1 mm too long) the RMB is easier to activate and has less button travel. Apart of that, the shell feels solid and the shape workes for me with fingertip grip.

The mainbuttons react with a tiny bit delay, i can not confirm 100% (did not want to void gurarantee..). Atleast in comparison to g100s/g302.
However I have decided to sent my Finalmouse back. The reason for this is mainly sensor surface compatibility/price ratio, even though mousetester shows no problems (see below). Just like the Savu, the FM is very picky and tbh it worked good with only one pad (Razer Destructor). With the rest of the pads the FM feels like it does not track seamless.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



*Cyborg GLIDE*:

*Goliathus alfa*:

*Icemat*:




I would give the Finalmouse another try once the final version is released and it is available in Europe.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Thunder those graphs are all perfect.

You hit the malfunction speed at 6m/s which is really really high.


----------



## Derp

Thanks for sharing your review Kohler. Your honest opinions don't seem to be held back like other reviews seen on OCN recently.


----------



## Thunderbringer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You hit the malfunction speed at 6m/s which is really really high.


Not that i need it, ~4.2 m/s PCS is enough for me personally.


----------



## pinobot

What is the LOD?
Are the side buttons mouse 4 & 5 or bound to keyboard keys?


----------



## czerro

Max, you are amazing. We are allowed to critique this mouse now?

Your observations are spot on with my own.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to give a quick updated on something interesting we have been working on (learning about) with Pixart with their SROM and registrars for their active imaging system.

So as some may know the 3310 does its own calibration through its AIS. We designed the DPI cycles on the FM to recalibrate the AIS (which is a good thing). However there is one interesting thing we have found some users running into.

If you were to freshly plug in the mouse, or cycle to a new dpi settings while the mouse is *LIFTED *ON A DIFFERENT SURFACE *ON A SIGNIFICANTLY DIRTY/DIFFERENT COLORED PORTION OF THE MOUSEPAD the AIS will take this into account and you will find that the sensitivity (CPI) of the mouse feels slightly higher once you place it back on your normal surface. For the AIS to then return to its natural setting it will need to be recycled back on that dpi setting again to reset the AIS. Also this happens naturally after some minutes.

So for those people that think they are seeing a slight dpi increase during certain occurances, rest assured you arent crazy, its just the 3310 AIS doing its job. By following the above steps you can make sure to have the AIS recognize the correct surface and stay on it everytime.

With the 3310's AIS i Can not stress enough how important a consistent, clean, dark surface is! And remember that cycling through the DPI is the FM's way of reimaging the surface!

Happy Gaming and Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: FinalmouseJude



Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude* 


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to give a quick updated on something interesting we have been working on (learning about) with Pixart with their SROM and registrars for their active imaging system.
> 
> So as some may know the 3310 does its own calibration through its AIS. We designed the DPI cycles on the FM to recalibrate the AIS (which is a good thing). However there is one interesting thing we have found some users running into.
> 
> If you were to freshly plug in the mouse, or cycle to a new dpi settings while the mouse is *LIFTED *ON A DIFFERENT SURFACE *ON A SIGNIFICANTLY DIRTY/DIFFERENT COLORED PORTION OF THE MOUSEPAD the AIS will take this into account and you will find that the sensitivity (CPI) of the mouse feels slightly higher once you place it back on your normal surface. For the AIS to then return to its natural setting it will need to be recycled back on that dpi setting again to reset the AIS. Also this happens naturally after some minutes.
> 
> So for those people that think they are seeing a slight dpi increase during certain occurances, rest assured you arent crazy, its just the 3310 AIS doing its job. By following the above steps you can make sure to have the AIS recognize the correct surface and stay on it everytime.
> 
> With the 3310's AIS i Can not stress enough how important a consistent, clean, dark surface is! And remember that cycling through the DPI is the FM's way of reimaging the surface!
> 
> Happy Gaming and Kind Regards,
> Jude






Thank you for the informative post. Will AIS affect Lift Off Distance as well?

Would the correct steps be to only change DPI when the surface the mouse is on the surface you are using. If you change DPI when not on that surface then you should cycle through the DPI steps to reset the AIS to your surface.

What does AIS stand for. Active Identification System?


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to give a quick updated on something interesting we have been working on (learning about) with Pixart with their SROM and registrars for their active imaging system.
> 
> So as some may know the 3310 does its own calibration through its AIS. We designed the DPI cycles on the FM to recalibrate the AIS (which is a good thing). However there is one interesting thing we have found some users running into.
> 
> If you were to freshly plug in the mouse, or cycle to a new dpi settings while the mouse is *LIFTED *ON A DIFFERENT SURFACE *ON A SIGNIFICANTLY DIRTY/DIFFERENT COLORED PORTION OF THE MOUSEPAD the AIS will take this into account and you will find that the sensitivity (CPI) of the mouse feels slightly higher once you place it back on your normal surface. For the AIS to then return to its natural setting it will need to be recycled back on that dpi setting again to reset the AIS. Also this happens naturally after some minutes.
> 
> So for those people that think they are seeing a slight dpi increase during certain occurances, rest assured you arent crazy, its just the 3310 AIS doing its job. By following the above steps you can make sure to have the AIS recognize the correct surface and stay on it everytime.
> 
> With the 3310's AIS i Can not stress enough how important a consistent, clean, dark surface is! And remember that cycling through the DPI is the FM's way of reimaging the surface!
> 
> Happy Gaming and Kind Regards,
> Jude






Fantastic thank you!


----------



## lunapt

can't wait for QC so I can try one







(


----------



## Maximillion

I received my replacement FM today (first one had the issue with LEDs not illuminating and imperfections on the bottom of the shell. I also mentioned to them that my "back" button was loose and tbh thought I may have been overly dramatic/picky in that regard but the new mouses is much firmer. (and the LEDs actually work on this one







)

Haven't tested in enotus/mouse tester or in-game yet, just thought I'd give the FM team my respect for going the extra mile and sending over a new unit without me even sending the original back.


----------



## Maximillion

Quick tests on a PureTrak Talent. @MaximilianKohler since he enjoys seeing these.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I received my replacement FM today (first one had the issue with LEDs not illuminating and imperfections on the bottom of the shell. I also mentioned to them that my "back" button was loose and tbh thought I may have been overly dramatic/picky in that regard but the new mouses is much firmer. (and the LEDs actually work on this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Haven't tested in enotus/mouse tester or in-game yet, just thought I'd give the FM team my respect for going the extra mile and sending over a new unit without me even sending the original back.


Glad you are enjoying the replacement Max.

On a different note, i would like to once again inform the community of something our team has found. (this actually isnt in regards to the FinalMouse)

We have reason to believe that CS:GO raw input is currently bugged. We are not sure if it is a result of a patch or not at the moment. We are still heavily investigating the issue and we will have more details soon once we can test further.

In the meantime we recommend to all mouse owners to keep raw input in CS:Go OFF.

Kind Regards,
FinalMouse Jude


----------



## prosunza

omg raw input bugged? really? I have been turned it on for 600+ hrs


----------



## bond10

I knew it. Raw input is broken in CS:GO. It gives mice a delayed movement, like super smoothing applied.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1540943/raw-input-in-cs-go


----------



## L4dd

Does m_mousespeed 0 fix this bug?


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *L4dd*
> 
> Does m_mousespeed 0 fix this bug?


No. That command does absolutely nothing unless you have *-useforcedmparms* in your launch options. Then m_mousespeed 0-2 becomes the acceleration behavior from windows.


----------



## prosunza

I just try Rinput that I can notice the different at the glance .I feel like raw and it reduces smoothing.


----------



## detto87

Here we go again.


----------



## mitavreb

Gonna subscribe to this thread.







Wanna hear about the raw input thing.









Definitely a different perspective since it will be coming from a mouse developer. Most of what I read from the net about raw input are mixed opinion. Some say it's bugged while some say it's fine.


----------



## Conditioned

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Glad you are enjoying the replacement Max.
> 
> On a different note, i would like to once again inform the community of something our team has found. (this actually isnt in regards to the FinalMouse)
> 
> We have reason to believe that CS:GO raw input is currently bugged. We are not sure if it is a result of a patch or not at the moment. We are still heavily investigating the issue and we will have more details soon once we can test further.
> 
> In the meantime we recommend to all mouse owners to keep raw input in CS:Go OFF.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> FinalMouse Jude


Disable raw input and instead use rinput.exe. If you can't find it online tell me Ill put it up somewhere. Think fnatic have it on their homepage and someone here has done a launcher.

Ps. I don't condone the use of the launcher for several reasons I'm just informing you there is one and it's an option if you didn't know.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Conditioned*
> 
> Ps. I don't condone the use of the launcher for several reasons I'm just informing you there is one and it's an option if you didn't know.


Could you list those reasons?


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to give a quick updated on something interesting we have been working on (learning about) with Pixart with their SROM and registrars for their active imaging system.
> 
> So as some may know the 3310 does its own calibration through its AIS. We designed the DPI cycles on the FM to recalibrate the AIS (which is a good thing). However there is one interesting thing we have found some users running into.
> 
> If you were to freshly plug in the mouse, or cycle to a new dpi settings while the mouse is *LIFTED *ON A DIFFERENT SURFACE *ON A SIGNIFICANTLY DIRTY/DIFFERENT COLORED PORTION OF THE MOUSEPAD the AIS will take this into account and you will find that the sensitivity (CPI) of the mouse feels slightly higher once you place it back on your normal surface. For the AIS to then return to its natural setting it will need to be recycled back on that dpi setting again to reset the AIS. Also this happens naturally after some minutes.
> 
> So for those people that think they are seeing a slight dpi increase during certain occurances, rest assured you arent crazy, its just the 3310 AIS doing its job. By following the above steps you can make sure to have the AIS recognize the correct surface and stay on it everytime.
> 
> With the 3310's AIS i Can not stress enough how important a consistent, clean, dark surface is! And remember that cycling through the DPI is the FM's way of reimaging the surface!
> 
> Happy Gaming and Kind Regards,
> Jude


Geeze - this sounds almost like the exact problem I was having with my KPM with the LOD settings turned off in the software. I wanted to try a FinalMouse, but was worried about similar 3310 issues.

Is this firmware calibration native to all 3310 devices? Can it be overridden by vendor software to hard set surface calibration or artifically lower lod ?


----------



## woll3

IIRC it is IAS, not AIS.


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> IIRC it is IAS, not AIS.


Yes your right.
I wonder why there is a auto calibration in the firmware though.
I couldn't find anything about this in the pixart documentation.


----------



## Swim

I am very disappointed with the FM support, I have been waiting about a week for a reply back (got a defective unit) and I have yet to hear back.

I email them about everyday, the onsite support is always offline.. pathetic support


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Swim*
> 
> I am very disappointed with the FM support, I have been waiting about a week for a reply back (got a defective unit) and I have yet to hear back.
> 
> I email them about everyday, the onsite support is always offline.. pathetic support


Hello Swim,

I just checked our support tickets and it shows you have received 4 responses and also your replacement was already sent out.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Swim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Swim,
> 
> I just checked our support tickets and it shows you have received 4 responses and also your replacement was already sent out.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


I got a response later today after I created this post.. coincidence?

Anyway, here is the replacement I received, same defective issues happening (scrollwheel is poorly positioned causing "wiggles" when using the mouse).

I received the same defective unit as I had before. http://youtu.be/33Gh4Vd55Iw


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Swim*
> 
> I got a response later today after I created this post.. coincidence?
> 
> Anyway, here is the replacement I received, same defective issues happening (scrollwheel is poorly positioned causing "wiggles" when using the mouse).
> 
> I received the same defective unit as I had before. http://youtu.be/33Gh4Vd55Iw


Hello Swim,

From what I have seen our support reps responded within our 24-48 business hour timeframe to each query. I escalates your last email for the tracking number which is why you got it when you did. But keep in mind sending many multiple emails to the support system only clogs up the ticket.

As For the mousewheel rattle on the replacement. This is pretty unlucky. This issue is rarely caused during shipping when the wheel itself is slightly dislodged from the encoder.

I suspect that this isn't coincidence since both your shipments were done by USPS. I have already informed our rma department to send another replacement along with return labels via another shipping carrier.

This will be sent out today. But keep in mind our support team can't supply you with tracking since this is an expedited one day shipment. For future concerns please continue to communicate via your support ticket, just keep in mind responses can take 24-48 business hours at times.

Kind Regards
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Can someone test the DPI changing theory that Jude posted? I'm testing some other mice at the moment.

I was pretty sure I measured the DPI at 800, then left the mouse on my light blue pad, and the next time I measured it it was at 950. Then cycling through the DPI steps reset it back to 800. Which goes contrary to the theory that "changing the dpi on a different surface" is what messes up the counts.

EDIT: here's a diagram someone made of the KPM's similar issue: http://www.overclock.net/t/1492197/roccat-kone-pure-military/750_50#post_23627798


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Can someone test the DPI changing theory that Jude posted? I'm testing some other mice at the moment.
> 
> I was pretty sure I measured the DPI at 800, then left the mouse on my light blue pad, and the next time I measured it it was at 950. Then cycling through the DPI steps reset it back to 800. Which goes contrary to the theory that "changing the dpi on a different surface" is what messes up the counts.
> 
> EDIT: here's a diagram someone made of the KPM's similar issue: http://www.overclock.net/t/1492197/roccat-kone-pure-military/750_50#post_23627798


DPI is what resets the calibration. The actual calibrating is done by picking up the mouse.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

you still want to reset on the surface you intend to calibrate.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> you still want to reset on the surface you intend to calibrate.


Do you have any plans to sell this mouse in Canada? You provide shipping to Canada through Amazon.com, but the price is beyond acceptable. With shipping and other fees included, I would have to pay at least 110$ CAD.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> Do you have any plans to sell this mouse in Canada? You provide shipping to Canada through Amazon.com, but the price is beyond acceptable. With shipping and other fees included, I would have to pay at least 110$ CAD.


same question applies from me but I'm from Australia. This price point plus postage is just too much for me


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The actual calibrating is done by picking up the mouse.


Can you elaborate any further on this technical process?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> DPI is what resets the calibration. The actual calibrating is done by picking up the mouse.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Ok, that's consistent with what I experienced. But before you said you think this is a good thing. Could you explain why? It seems only problematic for the mouse to change DPI automatically if you lift the mouse. This seems like it could also be related to my first FM performing better on a different surface.

For anyone using two mice, they would have to cycle through the DPI steps every time they switch to the FM. And if you decide to stick with this function it would be vital to put this information in the box to let people know how to maintain their desired DPI.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ok, that's consistent with what I experienced. But before you said you think this is a good thing. Could you explain why? It seems only problematic for the mouse to change DPI automatically if you lift the mouse. This seems like it could also be related to my first FM performing better on a different surface.
> 
> For anyone using two mice, they would have to cycle through the DPI steps every time they switch to the FM. And if you decide to stick with this function it would be vital to put this information in the box to let people know how to maintain their desired DPI.


Hello Max,

The mouse doesn't change dpi automatically the way you are describing. At the moment we don't have a choice of disabling sensors calibration features. The 3310 sensor is indirectly doing that (changing dpi) when its active imaging kicks in and calibrates. This is all managed by the srom. it is all working as intended. That being said we are working together with pixart to see if we can make improvements on how quickly the sensor does calibrate, since for some people it doesn't happen on the first lift off. This is our only real concern with pixarts system at the moment.

Kind regards,
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Well that's what I mean by automatically, IE: changing to a different DPI count by itself, different than the one the end user intended.

But glad to know you're looking into it. Because if you're able to remedy that and the tracking inconsistencies you would definitely have the best mouse on the market by a pretty substantial margin.


----------



## soulside86

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> same question applies from me but I'm from Australia. This price point plus postage is just too much for me


I asked them via email last night. At the moment Amazon is the only seller, no Australian distributor yet.


----------



## TK421

This seems similar to finalmouse 2015?

http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2015/02/ec-technology-4000dpi-gaming-mouse.html


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Max,
> 
> The mouse doesn't change dpi automatically the way you are describing. At the moment we don't have a choice of disabling sensors calibration features. The 3310 sensor is indirectly doing that (changing dpi) when its active imaging kicks in and calibrates. This is all managed by the srom. it is all working as intended. That being said we are working together with pixart to see if we can make improvements on how quickly the sensor does calibrate, since for some people it doesn't happen on the first lift off. This is our only real concern with pixarts system at the moment.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Jude


How can it be working "as intended" if the user has set up their DPI to be 800 and when they lift the mouse up, the sensor magically changes the DPI to be around 900-950? Now, I don't own an FM but my KPM has the exact same behavior. It doesn't really seem like an intended feature to me.

I am not claiming that you've or Roccat has done something wrong but it seems to be an oversight from PixArt's side. Hopefully your cooperation with them results in a patched SROM which fixes this behavior for every 3310-based mouse.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Max,
> 
> The mouse doesn't change dpi automatically the way you are describing. At the moment we don't have a choice of disabling sensors calibration features. The 3310 sensor is indirectly doing that (changing dpi) when its active imaging kicks in and calibrates. This is all managed by the srom. it is all working as intended. That being said we are working together with pixart to see if we can make improvements on how quickly the sensor does calibrate, since for some people it doesn't happen on the first lift off. This is our only real concern with pixarts system at the moment.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Jude
> 
> 
> 
> How can it be working "as intended" if the user has set up their DPI to be 800 and when they lift the mouse up, the sensor magically changes the DPI to be around 900-950? Now, I don't own an FM but my KPM has the exact same behavior. It doesn't really seem like an intended feature to me.
> 
> I am not claiming that you've or Roccat has done something wrong but it seems to be an oversight from PixArt's side. Hopefully your cooperation with them results in a patched SROM which fixes this behavior for every 3310-based mouse.
Click to expand...

Well it can be fixed.
Rival does not have the problem, recall reading SS fixed that part.

Have never had the problem on my Rival or Avior7k either.
My KPM have it however.

But ye calling it feature and intended is kinda bad, since I doubt anyone would actually want this.
Might as well just buy a mouse with random accel then.

800 dpi should be 800 dpi and so on, there is 0 benefits it should alter dpi, even less that it gets stuck at like 890 and only way to bring it back to 800 is to change dpi back and forth.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well it can be fixed.
> Rival does not have the problem, recall reading SS fixed that part.
> 
> Have never had the problem on my Rival or Avior7k either.
> My KPM have it however.
> 
> But ye calling it feature and intended is kinda bad, since I doubt anyone would actually want this.
> Might as well just buy a mouse with random accel then.
> 
> 800 dpi should be 800 dpi and so on, there is 0 benefits it should alter dpi, even less that it gets stuck at like 890 and only way to bring it back to 800 is to change dpi back and forth.


Hello Nivity,

This is true that there is a dpi discrepancy with the 3310. But the discrepancy is varied based on surface. On most dark surfaces it is roughly ~50 on some there is none. We agree it can be annoying to not have the dpi at exactly what the user intended, but there are also performance benefits to the sensor calibrating to the texture, color, etc. Of the surface. Also keep in mind the dpi does not change at all in the middle of a game, etc... Once calibrated the dpi is always consistent.

One thing we are discussing right now with pixart Is modifying the srom to still calibrate but more consistently on the first pickup, and also change the calibration mechanism to reduce dpi change. (The ss bug was actually something unrelated, but similar since it dealt with the calibration as well)

We will explore every viable option with pixart to get a more ideal setup. Disregarding surface calibration at the moment seems unwise since performance increases are very visible to us between the two states. If other manufacturers decided to go down this route and simply bypass this system then the 3310 would not be performing at its best.

For instance, right now there are measurable differences between the malfunction speeds of the two states (calibrated and uncalibrated).

This all being said, we are still in the middle of discussions with the sensor manufacturer. Rest assured we are looking for the best methods to improve the user experience and performance with th sensor. I will update the community if any updates are implemented.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Thoughts from owners with bigger hands? I tried to read through some of the thread to see if it was discussed but could not find anything. I really want one of these even though I'm perfectly happy with my Naos 7000.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Conditioned*
> 
> Disable raw input and instead use rinput.exe. If you can't find it online tell me Ill put it up somewhere. Think fnatic have it on their homepage and someone here has done a launcher.
> 
> Ps. I don't condone the use of the launcher for several reasons I'm just informing you there is one and it's an option if you didn't know.


I would be really interested to hear these reasons as well (Max had asked earlier). I suspect any reasons you may have to not condone it is based on false assumptions about how the launcher works. It almost literally does nothing different than manually performing the functions it automates... nothing is different about launching Steam games than how Steam does itself, uses the exact same RInput files that are published and invokes it the same way, changes digital vibrance settings with the exact same API that NVIDIA control panel uses, etc., etc. And all while utilizing ~3-4 MB of RAM, and I've never even had someone report it registering as much as 1% CPU usage. So I find your assertion strange, but maybe you have some other rationale that I'm missing.


----------



## czerro

The discrepancy is approximately 50 what?

Edit: Also, I was an insane man, trolling the forum, when I noted these issues initially. That's super awesome that Jude deleted and edited all my posts via his contacts here to sell his mouse. It's almost as if someone had brought up all these issues with the finalmouse many weeks prior...


----------



## treach

Wow man, this is the dumbest feature ever, what the hell is wrong with pixart? I cant even see one benefit in this automatic adjusting. It should calibrate when the user wants it too...


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well it can be fixed.
> Rival does not have the problem, recall reading SS fixed that part.
> 
> Have never had the problem on my Rival or Avior7k either.
> My KPM have it however.
> 
> But ye calling it feature and intended is kinda bad, since I doubt anyone would actually want this.
> Might as well just buy a mouse with random accel then.
> 
> 800 dpi should be 800 dpi and so on, there is 0 benefits it should alter dpi, even less that it gets stuck at like 890 and only way to bring it back to 800 is to change dpi back and forth.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treach*
> 
> Wow man, this is the dumbest feature ever, what the hell is wrong with pixart? I cant even see one benefit in this automatic adjusting. It should calibrate when the user wants it too...


It's intended to be seamless, but the sensor isn't mature enough or the vendors utilizing it.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well it can be fixed.
> Rival does not have the problem, recall reading SS fixed that part.
> 
> Have never had the problem on my Rival or Avior7k either.
> My KPM have it however.
> 
> But ye calling it feature and intended is kinda bad, since I doubt anyone would actually want this.
> Might as well just buy a mouse with random accel then.
> 
> 800 dpi should be 800 dpi and so on, there is 0 benefits it should alter dpi, even less that it gets stuck at like 890 and only way to bring it back to 800 is to change dpi back and forth.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *treach*
> 
> Wow man, this is the dumbest feature ever, what the hell is wrong with pixart? I cant even see one benefit in this automatic adjusting. It should calibrate when the user wants it too...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's intended to be seamless, but the sensor isn't mature enough or the vendors utilizing it.
Click to expand...

Hence the reason SS decided to skip it and have their dpi steps stable.
Same with avior I suppose since I had 0 problems with that as with my rival regarding this.
Since it's not working they should disable it.

I'm sorry but I want 800dpi, yet my sens on my KPM is 25% faster then any 800dpi mouse I have. Which is, well stupid


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts from owners with bigger hands? I tried to read through some of the thread to see if it was discussed but could not find anything. I really want one of these even though I'm perfectly happy with my Naos 7000.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would be really interested to hear these reasons as well (Max had asked earlier). I suspect any reasons you may have to not condone it is based on false assumptions about how the launcher works. It almost literally does nothing different than manually performing the functions it automates... nothing is different about launching Steam games than how Steam does itself, uses the exact same RInput files that are published and invokes it the same way, changes digital vibrance settings with the exact same API that NVIDIA control panel uses, etc., etc. And all while utilizing ~3-4 MB of RAM, and I've never even had someone report it registering as much as 1% CPU usage. So I find your assertion strange, but maybe you have some other rationale that I'm missing.


I have big hands. My thoughts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd&index=1


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> On a different note, i would like to once again inform the community of something our team has found. (this actually isnt in regards to the FinalMouse)
> 
> We have reason to believe that CS:GO raw input is currently bugged. We are not sure if it is a result of a patch or not at the moment. We are still heavily investigating the issue and we will have more details soon once we can test further.
> 
> In the meantime we recommend to all mouse owners to keep raw input in CS:Go OFF.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> FinalMouse Jude


please explain.
i was studying this as well with my photodiode/arduino/mcu setup and found that with raw input off, csgo sometimes drops input samples. so far i've found raw input to behave exactly as i expect with no "smoothing" or that sort of processing
if you feel it's premature to describe your findings publicly, i'd appreciate it if you could pm the details


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

You have to understand that the calibration is almost necessary for optimum tracking when you change DPI, etc. If it never recalibrated when you changed DPI or mousepads, the 3310 wouldn't be nearly as renowned in the the mouse-geek community as it is for its accurate tracking, because each different DPI or surface material/texture/color give different sensor tracking data. And if it only recalibrated when told to by the user, most users wouldn't think or know to do this or understand in which situations it was appropriate. That's why 3310 mice calibrate each time they power on or change setting.

I appreciate this "feature" now that I understand it. I noticed this problem a long time ago and thought it had to do with my mousepad or something, so I just got in the habit of always rebooting anytime I needed to replug my mouse or change a setting. Why this worked, I've know come to find out, is because I wouldn't be moving or lifting my mouse from my mousepad while I was waiting for the computer to reboot, so it got a repeatable calibration on my mousepad every time I rebooted.

So now I know the reboot isn't exactly necessary anytime I replug or change settings, I instead just try to keep my mouse in the middle of my mousepad and move it around a bit any time it would be recalibrating. Including any time I'm starting or rebooting Windows. And I move it around a little because I found that it gives a better LOD calibration when doing so as opposed to leaving it completely stationary during the few seconds it's calibrating. I've found this method gives me 100% consistent DPI measurements of 800 (what it's set to) with my 3310 sensor.


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I have big hands. My thoughts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd&index=1


Yes, I watched your video and noticed that









Unfortunately, your mouse grip isn't very comparable to mine in general so I wanted to hear from other large-handed Finalmouse owners


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> You have to understand that the calibration is almost necessary for optimum tracking when you change DPI, etc. If it never recalibrated when you changed DPI or mousepads, the 3310 wouldn't be nearly as renowned in the the mouse-geek community as it is for it's accurate tracking. And if it only recalibrated when told to by the user, most users wouldn't think or know to do this or understand in which situations it was appropriate. That's why 3310 mice calibrate each time they power on or change setting.
> 
> I appreciate this "feature" now that I understand it. I noticed this problem a long time ago and thought it had to do with my mousepad or something, so I just got in the habit of always rebooting anytime I needed to replug my mouse or change a setting. Why this worked, I've know come to find out, is because I wouldn't be moving or lifting my mouse from my mousepad while I was waiting for the computer to reboot, so it got a repeatable calibration on my mousepad every time I rebooted.
> 
> So now I know the reboot isn't exactly necessary anytime I replug or change settings, I instead just try to keep my mouse in the middle of my mousepad and move it around a bit any time it would be recalibrating. Including any time I'm starting or rebooting Windows. And I move it around a little because I found that it gives a better LOD calibration when doing so as opposed to leaving it completely stationary during the few seconds it's calibrating. I've found this method gives me 100% consistent DPI measurements of 800 (what it's set to) with my 3310 sensor.


That is just a sorry excuse in my opinion.
There is still no reason to just add a ton of DPI outside what you want.

The dpi remains the same no matter what mousepad etc I use.
It's always abit faster then any other 800dpi mouse @ 800dpi.
I can swap dpi to reset it to 800 then it goes mental again.

If I wanted a 900-1k dpi mouse I would just use that dpi.
I hate not knowing 100% that I have what I want.
Moving around the mouse etc does nothing at all, as I said swapping pads etc does nothing.

It is a useless "feature" that increased the dpi to something you don't want.
And there is no reason to actually do so, at all. Rival and Avior7k does perfect without it.
Better sensors like 3366 don't need useless features like this.

Now I HAVE To use DCU on KPM to remain at 800dpi at all times.
But I prefer having everything as raw as possible.


----------



## qsxcv

so do any other sensors have this "feature"?


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> The discrepancy is approximately 50 what?
> 
> Edit: Also, I was an insane man, trolling the forum, when I noted these issues initially. That's super awesome that Jude deleted and edited all my posts via his contacts here to sell his mouse. It's almost as if someone had brought up all these issues with the finalmouse many weeks prior...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> The discrepancy is approximately 50 what?
> 
> Edit: Also, I was an insane man, trolling the forum, when I noted these issues initially. That's super awesome that Jude deleted and edited all my posts via his contacts here to sell his mouse. It's almost as if someone had brought up all these issues with the finalmouse many weeks prior...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Hence the reason SS decided to skip it and have their dpi steps stable.
> Same with avior I suppose since I had 0 problems with that as with my rival regarding this.
> Since it's not working they should disable it.
> 
> I'm sorry but I want 800dpi, yet my sens on my KPM is 25% faster then any 800dpi mouse I have. Which is, well stupid


Actually, SS would do well to get in here. They could release an awesome 3090 with occluded well that it took many years to figure out until it was released in the A;cpr. They could release a 3310 with a very particular srom. Ball is kinda in their court, a company I dislike, but they should knock this out of the park.

Edit: You are not allowed to name some mice here









Edit2: Alcor, sorry, i just gotta test this...

To anyone curious, you can actually edit the name of a product into your post after it is automatically or handily removed in some mishmash. For instance,

'm a huge fan of A;cpr, it's almost as good as an Alcor...


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> That is just a sorry excuse in my opinion.
> There is still no reason to just add a ton of DPI outside what you want.
> 
> The dpi remains the same no matter what mousepad etc I use.
> It's always abit faster then any other 800dpi mouse @ 800dpi.
> I can swap dpi to reset it to 800 then it goes mental again.
> 
> If I wanted a 900-1k dpi mouse I would just use that dpi.
> I hate not knowing 100% that I have what I want.
> Moving around the mouse etc does nothing at all, as I said swapping pads etc does nothing.
> 
> It is a useless "feature" that increased the dpi to something you don't want.
> And there is no reason to actually do so, at all. Rival and Avior7k does perfect without it.
> Better sensors like 3366 don't need useless features like this.
> 
> Now I HAVE To use DCU on KPM to remain at 800dpi at all times.
> But I prefer having everything as raw as possible.


I understand where you're coming from and of course you're entitled to your opinion. But I was saying the moving the mouse WHILE the mouse is recalibrating (the second or two right as it is powered on, when my scroll wheel LED turns on for instance) DOES make noticeable and measurable difference in the LOD for a given mousepad. Simply swapping pads won't cause the 'real' DPI to change, BUT swapping mousepads then triggering a recalibration by replugging, restarting, or changing DPI setting can cause the 'real' DPI change if the surfaces are different enough. Again, the entire point of the method that I described is that it is repeatable and gives CONSISTENT DPI measurements after every recalibration.

[Edit: Oh and not every mouse will have the same measurable 'real' DPI at the same DPI setting, even of the same manufacturer/sensor. You can't worry exactly what the 'real' DPI is and if it's spot-on the DPI setting, but rather that the 'real' DPI is always consistent. And that's the entire point of the method I was describing.]

The DPI shouldn't arbitrarily change during normal mouse movement, assuming you aren't triggering a recalibration as mentioned above. If your DPI is changing randomly without a triggered recalibration, then your mouse sensor is probably defective and you should look into RMA'ing it. But if you're moving the mouse differently, lifting it at all, or even having it a different angle on the mousepad (because some pads' texture isn't consistent for vertical/horizontal/diagonal relative mouse positioning). And I've seen plenty of people report similar isssus with Rival and Avior7k.

I think the real issue is that the recalibration is either too aggressive in making changes or there is some kind of bug where some sensors have much too dramatic calibration changes for some reason. Every mouse that flickers the power off then on when changing settings does a recalibration, they just might be much less noticeable than the 3310 seems to be. But you can surely appreciate that every surface and different DPI settings will cause the light to be reflected and/or the data to be collected and aggregated differently, hence the need for recalibration. I think the answer for 3310 sensors is to tone down the aggression with which it make recalibration changes, or find out what design elements/minor manufacturing inconsistencies/driver/firmware discrepancies cause this DPI drift much more for some people than others.


----------



## popups

Variable CPI is a silly idea to me. I mean the CPI changing based off calibration. Not sure if you can turn that off completely in the SROM. You would think for the best performance CPI/scaling should never change during calibration or there shouldn't be any calibration. Just inherent performance like older sensors. Does that means the newer sensors with calibration cannot achieve the CPI designated by array size because calibration is always determining it based off surface properties? Sounds great for surface capability, but It seems like a problematic feature...


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Variable CPI is a silly idea to me. I mean the CPI changing based off calibration. Not sure if you can turn that off completely in the SROM. You would think for the best performance CPI/scaling should never change during calibration or there shouldn't be any calibration. Just inherent performance like older sensors. Does that means the newer sensors with calibration cannot achieve the CPI designated by array size because calibration is always determining it based off surface properties? Sounds great for surface capability, but It seems like a problematic feature...


I don't know enough about it to have an answer for your question, but to me it would make sense that manufacturers would prefer greater compatibility with all the different types of mousepads and surfaces that are common nowadays, with the sacrifice being the exact CPI per array size, because your average user is much more likely to notice poor tracking if they're using a non-'standard' mouse pad material/texture/color than they would be likely to bother or even know how to measure DPI with a program like Enotus. Just my 2 cents


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> I don't know enough about it to have an answer for your question, but to me it would make sense that manufacturers would prefer greater compatibility with all the different types of mousepads and surfaces that are common nowadays, with the sacrifice being the exact CPI per array size, because your average user is much more likely to notice poor tracking if they're using a non-'standard' mouse pad material/texture/color than they would be likely to bother or even know how to measure DPI with a program like Enotus. Just my 2 cents


I was contemplating the theoretical potential of the newer sensors without scaling and surface calibration working together. I don't think I would want the sensor to change CPI without doing it myself. Which is why I was wondering if it is an option for coders, I would think it is.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> Yes, I watched your video and noticed that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, your mouse grip isn't very comparable to mine in general so I wanted to hear from other large-handed Finalmouse owners


I'm guessing you use claw grip since that's the only one I didn't mention? I just tested claw grip on the FM in case there aren't any other large handers here, and it feels pretty good. I don't see any potential issues.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Hopefully the next pixart sensor doesn't have this DPI fluctuation that has been mentioned. Maybe FM will also update the mouse with that sensor whenever it is released and give the option of a rubber cable. That would be the perfect mouse.


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> *I'm guessing you use claw grip* since that's the only one I didn't mention? I just tested claw grip on the FM in case there aren't any other large handers here, and it feels pretty good. I don't see any potential issues.


Indeed. It's kinda a unique grip though, not exactly your standard "claw". My thumb and pinky make full contact like a palm grip, while my other three fingers only make contact at the finger tip (and more to the middle of the M1/M2 as opposed to your grip where your fingertips were at the far end of M1/M2). Then the mouse is stabilized by making firm contact with the heel of my palm. Even though this grip affords me great precision and accuracy, it can also be quite tiresome, especially at the low sensitivity I prefer.

I'm just used to my huge Naos 7000 and the particular ergonomics it has. But I feel that how the shape leads me to grip with my pinky and ring finger is the main source of the fatigue it seems to give (also partly because the butt of the mouse is a little too shallow IMO). So I'm wondering if a more traditional shape like the FM might give a naturally lighter and more comfortable grip with the tradeoff being my large fingers would feel crammed in, relative to the spacious curves of my Naos.


----------



## dvnx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> Indeed. It's kinda a unique grip though, not exactly your standard "claw". My thumb and pinky make full contact like a palm grip, while my other three fingers only make contact at the finger tip (and more to the middle of the M1/M2 as opposed to your grip where your fingertips were at the far end of M1/M2). Then the mouse is stabilized by making firm contact with the heel of my palm. Even though this grip affords me great precision and accuracy, it can also be quite tiresome, especially at the low sensitivity I prefer.
> 
> I'm just used to my huge Naos 7000 and the particular ergonomics it has. But I feel that how the shape leads me to grip with my pinky and ring finger is the main source of the fatigue it seems to give (also partly because the butt of the mouse is a little too shallow IMO). So I'm wondering if a more traditional shape like the FM might give a naturally lighter and more comfortable grip with the tradeoff being my large fingers would feel crammed in, relative to the spacious curves of my Naos.


Somewhat similar to what I've been using for the past 5 years, ever since I picked up an IME 3.0. It really works great with that mouse.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to give an updated on a couple things:

1. We currently have finalized a version of the SROM with pixart that we feel comfortable with. There were modifications to a couple of the algorithms, and as a result the ~50 dpi fluctuation due to surface calibration should no longer be an issue. This was done without jeopardizing any aspect of the performance. Obviously when manipulating machine code we want to due further testing to make sure everything is stable.... in addition to the dpi fluctuation there were a couple other minor tweaks that will positively improve performance. Once finalized we will implement this into all production units.

2. The findings with CS:GO raw input appear to be issues with certain motherboards. We feel comfortable in ruling out raw input as being a culprit and we are now looking to narrow down the potential motherboards and the reasons behind some of the problems we found.

3. We have some exciting new updates that will be revealed soon within the next few weeks. A couple of those I can share now: We now have full rights to our tooling and thus have begun work on building new and improved molds. At the moment our focus is on making the minute industrial design touches that will give the FM a more refined polish. In correlation with this we will be moving to improved production facilities with far better injection molding machines. More updates to come!

Kind Regards and Happy Gaming,
Jude


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> 2. The findings with CS:GO raw input appear to be issues with certain motherboards. We feel comfortable in ruling out raw input as being a culprit and we are now looking to narrow down the potential motherboards and the reasons behind some of the problems we found.


can you explain the problems you found?


----------



## LegoFarmer

Isn't raw input unnecessary with enhanced pointer precision disabled and 6/11 windows?


----------



## qsxcv

no. m_rawinput 0 has issues due to the cursor clipping against the edge of the screen when you move too fast; it feels like negative accel. this more easily if your resolution is low, framerate is low, and mouse dpi is high.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no. m_rawinput 0 has issues due to the cursor clipping against the edge of the screen when you move too fast; it feels like negative accel. this more easily if your resolution is low, framerate is low, and mouse dpi is high.


I have never noticed a difference.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Bit off topic, how do the mouse physics in linux compare with windows?


----------



## metal571

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no. m_rawinput 0 has issues due to the cursor clipping against the edge of the screen when you move too fast; it feels like negative accel. this more easily if your resolution is low, framerate is low, and mouse dpi is high.


This is 100% true. That is how non raw input works.


----------



## johnsamuels

Hi, doesn't the Steelseries Rival use the same sensor? I've not heard any reports of the Rival having this auto dpi changing issue


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to give an updated on a couple things:
> 
> 1. We currently have finalized a version of the SROM with pixart that we feel comfortable with. There were modifications to a couple of the algorithms, and as a result the ~50 dpi fluctuation due to surface calibration should no longer be an issue. This was done without jeopardizing any aspect of the performance. Obviously when manipulating machine code we want to due further testing to make sure everything is stable.... in addition to the dpi fluctuation there were a couple other minor tweaks that will positively improve performance. Once finalized we will implement this into all production units.
> 
> 2. The findings with CS:GO raw input appear to be issues with certain motherboards. We feel comfortable in ruling out raw input as being a culprit and we are now looking to narrow down the potential motherboards and the reasons behind some of the problems we found.
> 
> 3. We have some exciting new updates that will be revealed soon within the next few weeks. A couple of those I can share now: We now have full rights to our tooling and thus have begun work on building new and improved molds. At the moment our focus is on making the minute industrial design touches that will give the FM a more refined polish. In correlation with this we will be moving to improved production facilities with far better injection molding machines. More updates to come!
> 
> Kind Regards and Happy Gaming,
> Jude


Can you reveal anymore on what motherboards could cause issues?

And also, thanks for updating us. Excited to see the updated design molds.


----------



## Axaion

Gee, i wonder if being able to flash firmware updates would have been nice for people that bought the mouse


----------



## johnsamuels

"We now have full rights to our tooling and thus have begun work on building new and improved molds. At the moment our focus is on making the minute industrial design touches that will give the FM a more refined polish. In correlation with this we will be moving to improved production facilities with far better injection molding machines. More updates to come!"

So maybe removing the thumb dent? Small mice appeal to claw grippers, having a sunken grip where the thumb would rest seems contrary to logic.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Gee, i wonder if being able to flash firmware updates would have been nice for people that bought the mouse


Hello Axaion,

We actually just finished with the firmware flasher !

Right now it is only available to finalmouse customers and professional players under non disclosure due to the open nature of the firmware source (if you are interested in testing it out please send me a PM). Once we can get it in a protected flasher we will make it updated to the public. We are working hard to get this ready asap!

And just my two cents, but with some of the other small tweaks we made I can very safely say the 3310 feels EVEN better than it did before. With our tests we noticed improved performance in nearly all benchmarks. I think people here on OCN will most definitely notice









Very excited to hear what people think of the new FInalMouse Sensor performance!

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## johnsamuels

When will the updated mouse be ready to buy?


----------



## rmp459

Would definitely pick one of these up with the supposed firmware update and the QC fixes.
I would sorta be worried about getting old stock from amazon though. Hopefully it clear when the new version is available from the cleaned up molds.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: FinalmouseJude



Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude* 


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to give an updated on a couple things:
> 
> 1. We currently have finalized a version of the SROM with pixart that we feel comfortable with. There were modifications to a couple of the algorithms, and as a result the ~50 dpi fluctuation due to surface calibration should no longer be an issue. This was done without jeopardizing any aspect of the performance. Obviously when manipulating machine code we want to due further testing to make sure everything is stable.... in addition to the dpi fluctuation there were a couple other minor tweaks that will positively improve performance. Once finalized we will implement this into all production units.
> 
> 2. The findings with CS:GO raw input appear to be issues with certain motherboards. We feel comfortable in ruling out raw input as being a culprit and we are now looking to narrow down the potential motherboards and the reasons behind some of the problems we found.
> 
> 3. We have some exciting new updates that will be revealed soon within the next few weeks. A couple of those I can share now: We now have full rights to our tooling and thus have begun work on building new and improved molds. At the moment our focus is on making the minute industrial design touches that will give the FM a more refined polish. In correlation with this we will be moving to improved production facilities with far better injection molding machines. More updates to come!
> 
> Kind Regards and Happy Gaming,
> Jude






Can the updated SROM be used by other businesses? e.g. Corsair

Can the SROM be updated via flashing the firmware or would a new mouse need to be purchased?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Awesome! Great news!!


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

WOOO! Stoked for that firmware update when it's ready


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Axaion,
> 
> We actually just finished with the firmware flasher !
> 
> Right now it is only available to finalmouse customers and professional players under non disclosure due to the open nature of the firmware source (if you are interested in testing it out please send me a PM). Once we can get it in a protected flasher we will make it updated to the public. We are working hard to get this ready asap!
> 
> And just my two cents, but with some of the other small tweaks we made I can very safely say the 3310 feels EVEN better than it did before. With our tests we noticed improved performance in nearly all benchmarks. I think people here on OCN will most definitely notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very excited to hear what people think of the new FInalMouse Sensor performance!
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


That's great!
Now you just need to start selling it in Brazil (or on your own website, so I dont need to pay 70usd of taxes at Amazon







)


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Axaion,
> 
> We actually just finished with the firmware flasher !
> 
> Right now it is only available to finalmouse customers and professional players under non disclosure due to the open nature of the firmware source (if you are interested in testing it out please send me a PM). Once we can get it in a protected flasher we will make it updated to the public. We are working hard to get this ready asap!
> 
> And just my two cents, but with some of the other small tweaks we made I can very safely say the 3310 feels EVEN better than it did before. With our tests we noticed improved performance in nearly all benchmarks. I think people here on OCN will most definitely notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very excited to hear what people think of the new FInalMouse Sensor performance!
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


If i had a finalmouse, i would test it in a heartbeat.
Alas i do not (at the moment







)


----------



## springrolls

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> 3. We have some exciting new updates that will be revealed soon within the next few weeks. A couple of those I can share now: We now have full rights to our tooling and thus have begun work on building new and improved molds. At the moment our focus is on making the minute industrial design touches that will give the FM a more refined polish. In correlation with this we will be moving to improved production facilities with far better injection molding machines. More updates to come!
> 
> Kind Regards and Happy Gaming,
> Jude


Does this mean edits to the shape? or just improved quality control.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Axaion,
> 
> We actually just finished with the firmware flasher !
> 
> Right now it is only available to finalmouse customers and professional players under non disclosure due to the open nature of the firmware source (if you are interested in testing it out please send me a PM). Once we can get it in a protected flasher we will make it updated to the public. We are working hard to get this ready asap!
> 
> And just my two cents, but with some of the other small tweaks we made I can very safely say the 3310 feels EVEN better than it did before. With our tests we noticed improved performance in nearly all benchmarks. I think people here on OCN will most definitely notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very excited to hear what people think of the new FInalMouse Sensor performance!
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Is there any possibility of a 1000hz firmware still? I was originally going to do a review making a separate post, then you said there was a possibility of a 1000hz firmware, so I waited, then they started deleting or merging people's threads about the mouse into this one, so I didn't really know what to do.

As I already said several times, the mouse sensor is very responsive, beating mice response-wise such as the G302 that are supposed to have no post processing at all, but G302 definitely has more than G402. Even though the original Finalmouse firmware I tried has fast response, it didn't seem to quite have the precision as mice like the original 3g or MLT04, so it makes me wonder just how the new firmware has improved on that. I can sign NDA or whatever if you want me to test it.

If the mouse was able to get 1000hz support and maybe fix some of the button pre-travel to make the clicks more crsip and less mushy like a G9x or G402, the mouse would be taking big steps forward.

edit: also, can you talk about what motherboards you were seeing problems in? Is it a specific chipset or brand? I have z77, z87, and z97 boards.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@r0ach

Hello R0ach,

Absolutely, send me a PM and I can arrange for you to flash your FM's sensor.

Please keep in mind this is actually an SROM flash. We worked closely with Pixart to actually modify the machine code at the hardware level to fix certain algorithms that were effecting the sensor. This relates to LOD, DPI changing due to surface calibration, and it also additionally improves sensor performance in other facets as well. (all "firmware" does it change certain register values)

There is still no 1000hz version since our current flasher we have developed is mainly meant to flash the new SROM, in addition to the fact that we have not proven 1000hz stability consistently enough on a majority of motherboards.

As for a motherboard list, we hope to have that complete by next week. There are certain timing and voltage issues we are finding in certain models.

Hopefully by next week a public srom flasher will also be available (a public version will essentially just protect some of the source code). We are very busy at the moment since we are switching factories and production facilities, in addition to modifying molds and adding industrial design polish.

Additionally our supply and production overseer overseas is informing us that there are domestic parties here in the states consistently inquiring about the FM srom, firmware, and trying to copy/duplicate/steal/defame certain sensor implementation IP and brand information (hopefully our legal can take care of it). This is another thing currently adding a bit of delay to our timetable. Once all this is taken care of I am confident we can put more development time into getting a stable 1000hz version along with a motherboard compatibility list.

And on a side note, Id like to take a moment to thank the OCN community for all the valuable engagement you have had with us. As a result we really took to heart the value of community engagement and we hope to continue discuss and conversing here for years to come. Having so many pages of comments, critique, advice, is more valuable than many realize, and from everyone here at FinalMouse we really want to thank the community for that.









Kind Regards & Happy Gaming,
Jude


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> motherboard compatibility list.


can you explain the potential problems with certain motherboards? is it something like polling stability, voltage drops, some fixed delay, etc...??


----------



## thatgold

@FinalmouseJude

Hey, when will it be possible (if ever) for me to purchase a Finalmouse here in Australia?


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude
> 
> Hey, when will it be possible (if ever) for me to purchase a Finalmouse here in Australia?


ok $90 hf


----------



## Aventadoor

Does this mean that if I get a bad performing sensor, the firmware might fix it?

It's hard to justify the purchase for us euro's if the QC is anything like described in this thread


----------



## LegoFarmer

I would normally have no hope in mouse manufactures to fix the issues, but I have so much hope for the evolution of finalmouse right now. They actually really listen to the community. Once the QC issues are resolved (At their current rate, it won't be too long) and I can select between a braded and a rubber cable, I'll be sold.


----------



## r0ach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> can you explain the potential problems with certain motherboards? is it something like polling stability, voltage drops, some fixed delay, etc...??


Yes, this is something relevant to my interests. One instance that I've already talked about before is how the Steelseries firmware flasher will fail to work on an Asus Z77 board on Win 8.1 unless c3/c6 state report is turned on. The flash works fine on a Gigabyte Z77 board on Windows 7. I didn't try the Asus on Win 7, so I'm not sure if it's the motherboard, operating system, or combination of the two being the problem.

This bit of information might help Finalmouse some though.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> Yes, this is something relevant to my interests. One instance that I've already talked about before is how the Steelseries firmware flasher will fail to work on an Asus Z77 board on Win 8.1 unless c3/c6 state report is turned on. The flash works fine on a Gigabyte Z77 board on Windows 7. I didn't try the Asus on Win 7, so I'm not sure if it's the motherboard, operating system, or combination of the two being the problem.
> 
> This bit of information might help Finalmouse some though.


Do you think holding out on buying a new mouse just to wait for the refresh of this is a better idea than spending $30 on an IE 3.0?


----------



## springrolls

ie 3.0 and the finalmouse are pretty drastically different shapes/weight


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *springrolls*
> 
> ie 3.0 and the finalmouse are pretty drastically different shapes/weight


Yes, you are very correct. The selling point is the MLT04 sensor.


----------



## Swim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> -snip-


I sent you a pm regarding the firmware upgrade, and some other information


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> Yes, you are very correct. The selling point is the MLT04 sensor.


3310 is a better sensor in every single regard is it not?


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnsamuels*
> 
> 3310 is a better sensor in every single regard is it not?


3310 varies by implementation


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> 3310 varies by implementation


Yes. Really the only advantage of the MLT 04 is the accuracy. If you do a lot of fast flicks and play with a low sens, you shouldn't use it due to the lower PCS compared to modern sensors like the 3310. The MLT 04 is also stuck at 125Hz unless you overclock the usb port which cannot be done on windows 8.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> The MLT 04 is also stuck at 125Hz unless you overclock the usb port which cannot be done on windows 8.


That is why Windows 7 (only true PC OS) is still so required in using any MLT-04 sensored mouse. WMOs forever on my PC's







.


----------



## a_ak57

Well, 500Hz MLT04 can be accomplished on windows 8, you just have to have one of the ASRock Fatal1ty motherboards. But even then there might be some shenanigans you have to do to get it to work.


----------



## LegoFarmer

The IE 3.0 is still usable at 125Hz. No reason to run it at 125Hz if 500 can be accomplished, though.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Well, 500Hz MLT04 can be accomplished on windows 8, you just have to have one of the ASRock Fatal1ty motherboards. But even then there might be some shenanigans you have to do to get it to work.


Just easier to get it done on 7 with any Motherboard.......







.


----------



## Whide

Hi, I'm having a problem where my mouse sensor keeps shutting down when I go to sleep and keep my PC on and wake up the next morning to find the sensor is not working.Last time I got the sensor to work again was to go into a game. But now that doesn't work, and I need some help.


----------



## orndorf77

is the final mouse 2015 the same exact size and shape of the razer imperator except for the weight ? or is one a little bigger then the other ?


----------



## kaptchka

so after contacting the FM ppl I had to sign an NDA before getting the new "srom flasher". Been messing with it for only a couple hours now but it definitely feels more stable . The KPM/3310 dpi surface stuff is no longer there, i measured the dpi and it's now within 2 of the stated values. Mousetester graphs seem even better than before. On 3 plots all 3 were very clean without deviation. Also I don't know if it's just placebo but the LOD feels maybe a tad lower. I wish I would have measured and done more tests before flashing so I could have compared


----------



## Abacus1234

I'll buy one as soon as they release with the new firmware and 1000hz.


----------



## orndorf77

I just placed a order for the finalmouse 2015 . I am planing on using it @ 800dpi . Does the lower dpi you use higher the click delay ? Or is the click responce time the same on all the dpi settings ?


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orndorf77*
> 
> I just placed a order for the finalmouse 2015 . I am planing on using it @ 800dpi . Does the lower dpi you use higher the click delay ? Or is the click responce time the same on all the dpi settings ?


It's the same.


----------



## orndorf77

I seen a video review of the finalmouse 2015 and the person said that sensor performance of the finalmouse 2015 is different from mouse to mouse, is this true ?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orndorf77*
> 
> I seen a video review of the finalmouse 2015 and the person said that sensor performance of the finalmouse 2015 is different from mouse to mouse, is this true ?


That's true for all mice ever manufactured.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> That's true for all mice ever manufactured.


We'd need to see some evidence of that.

I've had multiple 3.0's and they all performed very well/similar.

The 3366 seems to have little variance as well.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> That's true for all mice ever manufactured.


And every CPU (when you squeeze out the maximum during OC'ing), and every...

... and so on and on. Within a certain margin of error of course.


----------



## KingAlkaiser

is this mouse a laser or a optical mouse? it resembles the old G5 a lot And i was hoping to use it without a mouse pad like my old mouse but almost 100% of optical mouse can not be used without a pad.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KingAlkaiser*
> 
> is this mouse a laser or a optical mouse? it resembles the old G5 a lot And i was hoping to use it without a mouse pad like my old mouse but almost 100% of optical mouse can not be used without a pad.


Optical.


----------



## orndorf77

I just received my new finalmouse 2015 . the mouse has a very good build quality the sensor performance is good the only thing I don't like about it is the thumb buttons


----------



## orndorf77

I am debating on if I should return my finalmouse 2015 . I like the build quality the scroll wheel is perfect the left and right click buttons is perfect the sensor performance is perfect . I just can't get used to the placement of the thumb buttons . When I play fps games I use the thumb buttons for sprinting and crouching . The mouse is comfortable if I don't use the thumb buttons but I have to use the thumb buttons when playing fps games for sprinting and crouching not being able to use the tumb buttons messes with my game. What do I do?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orndorf77*
> 
> I am debating on if I should return my finalmouse 2015 . I like the build quality the scroll wheel is perfect the left and right click buttons is perfect the sensor performance is perfect . I just can't get used to the placement of the thumb buttons . When I play fps games I use the thumb buttons for sprinting and crouching . The mouse is comfortable if I don't use the thumb buttons but I have to use the thumb buttons when playing fps games for sprinting and crouching not being able to use the tumb buttons messes with my game. What do I do?


Odd choice of binds... couldn't you rebind?

I remap my keys in every game from the standard wasd to esdf, which provides me with easy access to more keys. Not really sure why wasd is standard.

I use shift for sprint/walk and A for crouch.


----------



## orndorf77

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Odd choice of binds... couldn't you rebind?
> 
> I remap my keys in every game from the standard wasd to esdf, which provides me with easy access to more keys. Not really sure why wasd is standard.
> 
> I use shift for sprint/walk and A for crouch.


I have been using thumb buttons for sprinting and crouching for so long it will be tuff for me to get used to not using thumb buttons . I wish finalmouse would have made the thumb buttons bigger so I didn't have to adjust my grip every time I press them


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orndorf77*
> 
> I have been using thumb buttons for sprinting and crouching for so long it will be tuff for me to get used to not using thumb buttons . I wish finalmouse would have made the thumb buttons bigger so I didn't have to adjust my grip every time I press them


If it's really a deal breaker for you, you could wait for their next iteration, which I'm pretty sure they're going to address that issue.


----------



## orndorf77

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> If it's really a deal breaker for you, you could wait for their next iteration, which I'm pretty sure they're going to address that issue.


when are they going to release a updated version ? that would be awesome if they make the thumb buttons bigger, in the mean time i think i am going to try out the ninox aurora, amazon has it on sale for $44.99 with prime shipping


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orndorf77*
> 
> when are they going to release a updated version ? that would be awesome if they make the thumb buttons bigger, in the mean time i think i am going to try out the ninox aurora, amazon has it on sale for $44.99 with prime shipping


Jude would have to answer that, but he mentioned the topic here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/800_50#post_23649661


----------



## pepefrog

I'd love to see a system of positioning thumb buttons (and by extension,) general buttons on a mouse anywhere you want, maybe in way a like there would be a grid of holes on an area of a mouse where omrons or whatever microswitch can be placed inside that hole and the rest plugged up by included plugs, or even more microswitches. It seems kind of hard and maybe not absolutely disadvantage free to implement, but I hope mice become more customizable in the future to one's own perfect liking.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pepefrog*
> 
> I'd love to see a system of positioning thumb buttons (and by extension,) general buttons on a mouse anywhere you want, maybe in way a like there would be a grid of holes on an area of a mouse where omrons or whatever microswitch can be placed inside that hole and the rest plugged up by included plugs, or even more microswitches. It seems kind of hard and maybe not absolutely disadvantage free to implement, but I hope mice become more customizable in the future to one's own perfect liking.


the Microsoft Habu let you swap the sidebuttonpart, and came with one with the buttons more infront, and another one with the buttons further back.
but such system adds so much weight, i wouldn't want it in my mouse of choice.


----------



## orndorf77

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to give an updated on a couple things:
> 
> 1. We currently have finalized a version of the SROM with pixart that we feel comfortable with. There were modifications to a couple of the algorithms, and as a result the ~50 dpi fluctuation due to surface calibration should no longer be an issue. This was done without jeopardizing any aspect of the performance. Obviously when manipulating machine code we want to due further testing to make sure everything is stable.... in addition to the dpi fluctuation there were a couple other minor tweaks that will positively improve performance. Once finalized we will implement this into all production units.
> 
> 2. The findings with CS:GO raw input appear to be issues with certain motherboards. We feel comfortable in ruling out raw input as being a culprit and we are now looking to narrow down the potential motherboards and the reasons behind some of the problems we found.
> 
> 3. We have some exciting new updates that will be revealed soon within the next few weeks. A couple of those I can share now: We now have full rights to our tooling and thus have begun work on building new and improved molds. At the moment our focus is on making the minute industrial design touches that will give the FM a more refined polish. In correlation with this we will be moving to improved production facilities with far better injection molding machines. More updates to come!
> 
> Kind Regards and Happy Gaming,
> Jude


are there any plans to improve the thumb button placement or the size of the thumb buttons or the shape of the thumb buttons ? because I have to adjust my grip every time I press them and I press them a lot because when I play fps games I use the thumb buttons for sprinting and crouching


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Not really sure why wasd is standard.


because your hands are huuuuuuuge. shift and ctrl are so far away for me if I were to use esdf.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> because your hands are huuuuuuuge. shift and ctrl are so far away for me if I were to use esdf.


My hands are 18cm and have average width and I have no problems using ESDF if I wanted to (I don't). I guess it depends a lot on the keyboard.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> because your hands are huuuuuuuge. shift and ctrl are so far away for me if I were to use esdf.


Shift and control are too far away when you're typing? How small do your hands have to be for a standard keyboard layout to be too big...


----------



## Axaion

shift and ctrl too far away for me too, and i have no issue reaching 5-6 using wasd

Then again, i have the aweome nordic layout master race leet style r0ach certified edition

Which has the ><\ to in between z and shift.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> My hands are 18cm and have average width and I have no problems using ESDF if I wanted to (I don't). I guess it depends a lot on the keyboard.


mine are 16cm edit: actually I think they're 15. wikipedia says average is 19 for males
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Shift and control are too far away when you're typing? How small do your hands have to be for a standard keyboard layout to be too big...


I can reach them, it's just not pleasant because they're too far away. shift is usable but ctrl really isn't for me. it must depend on your hand size and keyboard


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, ctrl is awkward for me either way, except for things like "stopsound". But you get at least 4 more accessible keys by switching over to esdf. So minus 1 still results in a net gain.


----------



## czerro

That's so funny. I've played esdf for my entire gaming life (+10 years). Reasoning, your pinky doesn't do much, so you should employ it. If you play wasd, you have very few keys to choose from without some ridiculous and sloppy gymnastics. Playing ESDF opens all the keys previously available by wasd, and more natural keys like: WQAZXC in addtion to the traditional TAB/Cap/Shift/CTRL which you actually have much easier access to in this configuration.

The only downside is WASD is a 'thing' and keyboard are particularly wired for this in 'rollover' situations. Those 4 keys generally don't share any switch states, because that's what people use (for no logical reason), as their setup. It's an entrenched thing that wasd is 'best' when obviously esdf is better for a million reasons...or at the very least TWELVE.

Edit: That much thought didn't go into my initial decision to play esdf, it was simply where my hand rests on the keyboard, so it made sense. People for over 10 years have insisted that that's weird...which I really don't get. That place your hand naturally falls on a keyboard, for utilizing a keyboard, is a weird place to put your hand? You should move it laterally 1 key to the side where the angles are different and you have less keys available and nothing for your pinky to do? How did this theory ever arise?


----------



## trism

Ctrl, shift and capslock are much easier for me to press with the pinky compared to Z, A and ><|-key (which is the only one I can properly use in ESDF). I haven't faced a situation where I would need more keys.


----------



## Axaion

Eh, i use modifiers at times, and if i used esdf I would not be able to hit shift or ctrl comfortably, So thats at least 6+ binds i wouldent get back

Staying with wasd here, but again, i have a nordic layout on my keyboard


----------



## jayfkay

An overpriced standard implementation of the most commonly hyped internals in an industry default shell, but extremely lightweight?

Make the shell longer and Im gonna waste mah money for dat.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> An overpriced standard implementation .


No. FM has the best implementation of the 3310 by FAR. It feels even more "raw" than the MLT04. If the new firmware fixed the tracking inconsistencies then this is the best mouse ever made by a pretty large margin.


----------



## qsxcv

what if the "standard" implementation is the one that it has and feels raw to you?


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No. FM has the best implementation of the 3310 by FAR. It feels even more "raw" than the MLT04. If the new firmware fixed the tracking inconsistencies then this is the best mouse ever made by a pretty large margin.


Please stop advertising this scam (fm) . This is the reason why gaming companies are charging $90 for laser mice.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No. FM has the best implementation of the 3310 by FAR. It feels even more "raw" than the MLT04. If the new firmware fixed the tracking inconsistencies then this is the best mouse ever made by a pretty large margin.
> 
> 
> 
> Please stop advertising this scam (fm) . This is the reason why gaming companies are charging $90 for laser mice.
Click to expand...

Care to elaborate because that does not seem like any reason what so ever why big companies release garbage mice.
I would support companies like this any day of the week that actually listen to customers.
And not going the stupid spaceship route with a milion leds and shapes only fit for an alien hand.


----------



## Vantavia

I'm currently using a Ninox Aurora but I'm finding that my cm/360 feels different every time I use it or cycle the DPI. BST seems to have caved in to the stress and hasn't updated us on any possible fixes. Is the final mouse any wider (at the gripping point) than the aurora?

Just a few things for @FinalmouseJude:

I'm sure you're aware of the mouse button latency test thread: http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison/0_100

Setting the record or benchmark would be great not only for the product (and consumer) but publicity as well (Win/Win). One would assume that 1-2ms is the fastest possible response time. Maybe you could send the guy a complimentary sample when the firmware is sorted out to boost sales.

Adjustable DPI would have been nice (not sure if it's possible to retain performance), the 3310 has native steps of 50 dpi IIRC and not being able to set my DPI steppings is a little depressing in 2015. Using a DPI that requires scaling in 2D games like osu is surely a bad idea due to the nature of it and kinda defeats the purpose of a mouse with good input.

Oh yeah, and make it readily available in Europe, it's like £65 shipped which is absurd.

Do you have any plans to release more shell options? (interchangeability would be great if possible)

There are countless Logitech G9x/CM Storm xornet users who have literally NO alternative mice available for that grip. The Steelseries Sensai/Xai shapes had a lot of hype too.

The Aurora's shape is really nice but a tad thin for most people (including myself).


----------



## jayfkay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No. FM has the best implementation of the 3310 by FAR. It feels even more "raw" than the MLT04. If the new firmware fixed the tracking inconsistencies then this is the best mouse ever made by a pretty large margin.


It is probably based on the low weight, a non-involved person would probably say "do u even lift" but 40g can make quite a difference, its gonna feel easier on the hand and thus "more responsive" I guess.

Which is also the main reason for me to consider this mouse. Now dear Jude, please make one with a g400 / IE 3.0 shape so I can drop test signing mode already which keeps me off Dayz and Rust :/


----------



## MaximilianKohler

No, it's not due to the weight jay.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> Is the final mouse any wider (at the gripping point) than the aurora?


Yes, it is.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> Now dear Jude, please make one with a g400 / IE 3.0 shape so I can drop test signing mode already which keeps me off Dayz and Rust :/


If you can handle the awful g400 shell then why not get a g400s or g402 or a deathadder? Unless you actually acknowledge there's more going on inside that mouse than simply a lack of weight. Hell, the new zowie series would be exactly what you're after in that case surely?


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jeshuastarr*
> 
> you can use 1000hz on intellimice without test mode on 32 bit windows 7. using the ram patch, you can use > 4gb on 32 bit also. so yeah. theres that. and just learn how to selfsign.


What an absurd sacrifice, what about 64 bit programs/game engines? I'd be amazed if there is a 32 bit version of Windows 10 regardless.


----------



## qsxcv

someone should just make a piece of hardware that goes between the original mouse and computer that forces 1000hz polling without needing any configuration on the computer's side.
would probably sell well a couple years ago


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> someone should just make a piece of hardware that goes between the original mouse and computer that forces 1000hz polling without needing any configuration on the computer's side.
> would probably sell well a couple years ago


^ Take note finalmouse. inb4 crys of clown cursor, swamp cursor, synonym cursor, sociopath cursor, placebo cursor, no cursor, cursor trail, trail mix, smoothing, gritting, DPC latency, sound driver "feels" and chubby hand syndrome.


----------



## jayfkay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jeshuastarr*
> 
> you can use 1000hz on intellimice without test mode on 32 bit windows 7. using the ram patch, you can use > 4gb on 32 bit also. so yeah. theres that. and just learn how to selfsign.


Sorry for this OT but mind telling me how to get 500hz on my mx518 without test mode? On win7 64?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> If you can handle the awful g400 shell then why not get a g400s or g402 or a deathadder? Unless you actually acknowledge there's more going on inside that mouse than simply a lack of weight. Hell, the new zowie series would be exactly what you're after in that case surely?


I am using an mx518 for as long as I can remember, its the optimal shape for me for long sessions of gaming and it has the best grip for me.
the g402 is kind of too small... it has a lot less volume. the zowies are all too flat, the shape is just not as comfy for me - not to mention the horrible rubber base. I dont have the sweatiest hands so getting a good grip of rubber zowies is horrible for me.

also @Kohler, isnt the FM a bit too short for you as IE30 user?


----------



## lntricate

Greetings from Australia!

I've finally ordered my mouse from Amazon and paid a hefty amount for it! (Almost 85 USD!) and it's been great for the past 2 hours of usage, light, accurate, and a whole new experience compared to my g502.

However, one that that has been bugging me is the side button which I decided to then take a closer look at youtubers videos to verify if the side button specifically the mouse4 is suppose to be loose and shaky, after watching Adren's review close up it doesn't seem like he has a problem with it.

I've decided to send a message to the finalmouse team on their website however if anybody here is willing to take a look at my attached video to see if this is suppose to be intended it'd be great.

P/S: What if my unit is faulty? I've waited 2 weeks + for this product and I don't know how much shipping will cost for me to return it back to the states again.. I've already invested almost all i can spend on getting it shipped to australia xD.

Video of the problem I'm having:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIQne6PPBX8

Note: I'm putting VERY little force, just tapping and its shaking


----------



## prosunza

Did you perform better when using FM2015 compare with G502 ?


----------



## Junki3e

@MaximilianKohler Have you tried the new firmware that Jude was mentioning about?


----------



## JerryKrautz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> someone should just make a piece of hardware that goes between the original mouse and computer that forces 1000hz polling without needing any configuration on the computer's side.
> would probably sell well a couple years ago


Lately I've been wondering if or how such a device would actually work. Anybody have a clue? I would buy one in a heartbeat!


----------



## povohat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> someone should just make a piece of hardware that goes between the original mouse and computer that forces 1000hz polling without needing any configuration on the computer's side.
> would probably sell well a couple years ago


I put a bit of thought into this idea a couple of years ago but didn't follow through with it at all, due to having basically no experience with working with electronics or coding for a microprocessor. I imagine you could get a proof of concept going with an arduino with a usb host shield. The big question would be how much latency is added.


----------



## qsxcv

if you synchronize the polling from the computer to the device and the polling from the device to the mouse you can get <0.1ms probably

and of course even if you get it that low, obviously some around here will probably still complain about how "it feels floaty"


----------



## lntricate

Could anybody please address my issue? Sorry for free bump, in case anybody lurking the forum atm have a FM2015 already.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lntricate*
> 
> Greetings from Australia!
> 
> I've finally ordered my mouse from Amazon and paid a hefty amount for it! (Almost 85 USD!) and it's been great for the past 2 hours of usage, light, accurate, and a whole new experience compared to my g502.
> 
> However, one that that has been bugging me is the side button which I decided to then take a closer look at youtubers videos to verify if the side button specifically the mouse4 is suppose to be loose and shaky, after watching Adren's review close up it doesn't seem like he has a problem with it.
> 
> I've decided to send a message to the finalmouse team on their website however if anybody here is willing to take a look at my attached video to see if this is suppose to be intended it'd be great.
> 
> P/S: What if my unit is faulty? I've waited 2 weeks + for this product and I don't know how much shipping will cost for me to return it back to the states again.. I've already invested almost all i can spend on getting it shipped to australia xD.
> 
> Video of the problem I'm having:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIQne6PPBX8
> 
> Note: I'm putting VERY little force, just tapping and its shaking


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lntricate*
> 
> Could anybody please address my issue? Sorry for free bump, in case anybody lurking the forum atm have a FM2015 already.


That should not be happening. My back button is not lose like that.


----------



## lntricate

Thank you very much! Hopefully support will get back to me soon before I file a return on Amazon! Such bad luck =[.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> 
> also @Kohler, isnt the FM a bit too short for you as IE30 user?


No. The Aurora is really really short to where my fingers go over the front and touch the mouse pad, and it doesn't bother me. Narrowness causing cramps is the main issue I have with mice. Also, I only use the 3.0 for the sensor, I don't like the shape.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> @MaximilianKohler Have you tried the new firmware that Jude was mentioning about?


Hopefully within a week. I'm still testing the DAs.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Make Me Pro*
> 
> This mouse or the G303 and why?


If the new firmware fixed the issues then the sensor is better, and so is the shape.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Make Me Pro*
> 
> How you know that a sensor or mouse is better?


By using them?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Make Me Pro*
> 
> which is the best mouse you use right now?
> 
> I think I read that it was one of Logitech, which is?


I'm still using the 3.0 as I haven't had the time to test the new FM firmware yet.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Looks like my Finalmouse has died









Nothing works except right click lol. No pointer, no movement or left click or anything. If I hit right click it just opens the windows dead center. I've uninstalled driver, tried multiple usb ports and even reset bios (which I know isn't necessary). Sadly, throw my old G700s in and no problems.

Hopefully there's a decent warranty? haha


----------



## ChinaRep

They come with a 3 year warranty.


----------



## lntricate

Does anybody know how the warranty works? Mine came faulty on arrival, I have full proof on date of arrival and I took the video on the day it arrived too, from amazon, I'm in Australia so shipment is really expensive. Do i have to pay to ship it back to them to get it fixed and receive another replacement? Cause it's going to increase the cost by alot!


----------



## ChinaRep

Just go to their website and contact customer support. They don't handle warranties and returns on a forum lol


----------



## lntricate

I did, left a message on Friday, but I'm assuming it's 24-48 hours and its' the weekend so i'll wait till next week.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

In the US Amazon will cover the shipping costs for defective products. Not sure if it's the same for Australia, but the site will tell you when you go to do it.


----------



## lntricate

Thank you Max, before I file a return I'm going to wait for FM support to get back to me, since I think they would have to give me instructions on what I should do next, from a few videos it seems that they don't even ask for the faulty mouse back, they just send a new unit.

@Max

If you have a little time to spare, could you please check this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIQne6PPBX8 if the problem is prominent, another kind user has verified it is a problem and shouldn't happen but just to ensure that support team gets it, do you see the problem watching the video?


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

I found the email to directly get in contact with them (I hope)... as their site is atrocious. Either way I love my Finalmouse, hopefully this can get remedied


----------



## lntricate

And would that email be [email protected]? abbrevation for FM obviously.


----------



## casualgamer

Does anyone know the exact length of the FM? The Fk2 is 12.4 cm, how does the finalmouse compare in terms of length and click latency?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@Intricate I haven't had that issue on any of the 3 FM's I've tested.

@casualgamer 123.46mm length


----------



## Maximillion

@lntricate My FM also had a loose "back" button (also, the LEDs did not illuminate). I was able to get a replacement unit with no issue/hassle. I guess I was lucky because I was able to complete that process via the "live chat" in the bottom right corner of the FM website, which I guess isn't always online at convenient times.


----------



## prosunza

Just curious why it was using omron china

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61rYKrxYXs


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prosunza*
> 
> Just curious why it was using omron china
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61rYKrxYXs


FM are scum

their website is full of buzzwords and marketing BS, no need to pay attention to it.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> FM are scum
> 
> their website is full of buzzwords and marketing BS, no need to pay attention to it.


So their potentially superior implementation of the 3310 in an ultra light weight body with good button latency is defunct because they used buzzwords despite the fact they are releasing a niche product that known companies are too stupid to produce?

Logitech have a deathgrip on the 3366 (a possible upgrade to the 3310) and some of the worst ergonomics / weight ever conceived.

Zowie have button latency issues and had issues with their rubber coating for the longest while along with issues created by their custom lens. (and they are trying to achieve a similar product without customer feedback)

You get the idea...


----------



## jayfkay

I still love my mx518 shape more than anything else so I am inclined to disagree! However, tried the g402 and its pretty wierd, not to mention the horrible sniper button.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> So their potentially superior implementation of the 3310 in an ultra light weight body with good button latency is defunct because they used buzzwords despite the fact they are releasing a niche product that known companies are too stupid to produce?
> 
> Logitech have a deathgrip on the 3366 (a possible upgrade to the 3310) and some of the worst ergonomics / weight ever conceived.
> 
> Zowie have button latency issues and had issues with their rubber coating for the longest while along with issues created by their custom lens. (and they are trying to achieve a similar product without customer feedback)
> 
> You get the idea...


I mean their marketing where they say its designed in collaboration with pro players and stuff like that. Good mouse, but awful marketing.


----------



## casualgamer

I've just about narrowed down my choices to two - FM and Fk2.

On the one hand I have the Fk line's notorious click latency, and on the other a cheap OEM shell (emphasis on the disgusting glossy plastic side material) with tacky side buttons and build quality that doesn't quite justify the high price tag.

What to choose....


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Almost every gaming company's webpage I've seen uses buzzwords for their mice.


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *casualgamer*
> 
> I've just about narrowed down my choices to two - FM and Fk2.
> 
> On the one hand I have the Fk line's notorious click latency, and on the other a cheap OEM shell (emphasis on the disgusting glossy plastic side material) with tacky side buttons and build quality that doesn't quite justify the high price tag.
> 
> What to choose....


Iirc Jude mentioned that the FM company managed to get ahold of their mould and moved to another factory.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Just want to say, FM have exceptional customer service!!!! They are directly mailing me my new mouse after my current one has died. Super friendly responses and don't take you for an idiot when you explain how you've already tested the mouse like some other companies. A+ in my book!


----------



## MattVonX

hmm I guess when the quality issues are sorted I might order one to go with my...collection


----------



## lntricate

I would strongly advice against purchasing this if you are in need of a mouse urgently if you are not located near the states.

In my case of receiving a defective product:

I have filed a return on amazon (which only has the option of a FULL refund including shipping fee, thankfully) as requested by support from FM. THANKFULLY, amazon reimburses the shipping BACK for international shipping (Which took up to 14 USD). That being said this refund will only be available after 2 weeks, which is when I can re-order (because in AU we're using amazon gift cards for US stores) and if I order one NOW, i will be left with a 80$ amazon gift card which I would have no use of. So to sum up, it will take me 1 month to get a new mouse, which I'm bitter about because receiving a defective product by itself shouldn't happen in the first place.

Other than that, great mice but to live 1 month without a gaming mice (G502 was already given to a dear friend as I've promised I would due to being all excited and hyped about the FM), probably looking for alternatives.


----------



## falcon26

Is the finalmouse about the same size as the G9 or larger


----------



## falcon26

Would coming from a G9 Claw style mouse make sense in the Final Mouse 2015? I am looking for a mouse similar in size and shape of the G9. Does the final mouse have this?


----------



## Abacus1234

So anyone who buys this mouse can email them and get the firmware update, right? Or when will it be publicly available? I am close to pulling the trigger on it, but I want to know I wont be turned down if I request the newer firmware.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Pretty sure once it's finalized they will release a public update for it.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Almost every gaming company's webpage I've seen uses buzzwords for their mice.


Yeah but not all of them plays with words and lies about their mouse. Some direct quotes from the website
Quote:


> "FINALMOUSE WAS ENGINEERED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE DEMANDING REQUIREMENTS OF PROFESSIONAL GAMERS."
> 
> "With a shape designed in collaboration with Pros"
> 
> "LEGENDARY BUILD QUALITY AND RELIABILITY"
> 
> "elite esports athletes"
> 
> "100% pure esports grade teflon with nano coating."
> 
> "Japanese Omron Switches"
> 
> "With the incredibly light esports weight of the FinalMouse"
> 
> "The new industry standard in esports"


Their marketing worse than razer or any other company. Charging $70 for a 90% OEM mouse and relying razer level marketing, but with more 'esports'

How much FM paid you?


----------



## Vantavia

@exitone
http://prntscr.com/6o1ydy
Do you have to wipe your mouth after you talk?


----------



## exitone

whatever. just dont like their business ethics.


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> Yeah but not all of them plays with words and lies about their mouse. Some direct quotes from the website
> Their marketing worse than razer or any other company. Charging $70 for a 90% OEM mouse and relying razer level marketing, but with more 'esports'
> 
> How much FM paid you?


That's exactly why I haven't purchased the FM2015, ITS A RIPOFF!!!!


----------



## offshell

So I decided to pick one up just to see mainly because of the low weight. I just got it earlier today, but do all of the mouse wheels rattle or do I have to go through a replacement? Just moving it back and forth on the mouse mat and it makes noise.


----------



## Abacus1234

Mine rattles too. It kind of bugged me at first, but coming from a Ec2-a, I am just glad to have a scroll wheel that actually functions properly.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *offshell*
> 
> So I decided to pick one up just to see mainly because of the low weight. I just got it earlier today, but do all of the mouse wheels rattle or do I have to go through a replacement? Just moving it back and forth on the mouse mat and it makes noise.


Get that replacement. Mouse wheel should not rattle. My first one did that.


----------



## offshell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Get that replacement. Mouse wheel should not rattle. My first one did that.


I sent them an email as it looks like amazon doesn't do exchanges since it's sold by finalmouse and only fulfilled by amazon. I'd normally just return it and order it again now, but I guess I'll wait and see what support says. On another topic, is there no way to disable the LED? It doesn't bother me gaming, but that sucker is pretty bright in a dark room with the computer asleep.


----------



## Abacus1234

Well my scroll wheel LED has already died, after like one day. Mouse tracks great, and the weight is awesome, but there must be some serious build quality issues since this problem seems very common.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *offshell*
> 
> I sent them an email as it looks like amazon doesn't do exchanges since it's sold by finalmouse and only fulfilled by amazon. I'd normally just return it and order it again now, but I guess I'll wait and see what support says. On another topic, is there no way to disable the LED? It doesn't bother me gaming, but that sucker is pretty bright in a dark room with the computer asleep.


You can get the replacement through FM support. They should get back to you soon.


----------



## casualgamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> there must be some serious build quality issues since this problem seems very common.


Really makes one wonder if they truly engineer "with masterful precision to achieve Esports grade quality" and stress test to "10 million clicks and 600 nonstop hours". Oh, and don't forget their claim to "100% QC inspection on every unit". Jesus.


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *casualgamer*
> 
> Really makes one wonder if they truly engineer "with masterful precision to achieve Esports grade quality" and stress test to "10 million clicks and 600 nonstop hours". Oh, and don't forget their claim to "100% QC inspection on every unit". Jesus.


I was excited about this mouse before, but all you've posted is now just sounding like waffle they have spouted to try to justify the price tag.

Now my hopes are for the Rog Sica to not have any serious issues. I'd have bought an FK1 if not for the input lag. Maybe Steelseries will finally put a 3310 in the kana or sensei... that would be an instant winner.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Had some personal hiccups however the customer support is great in my experience. Understanding & helpful. So i mean yea it sucks to get a faulty unit but they obviously knew it may be an issue which is why they have a 3 year warranty for you. I got my latest unit & it's solid. Really enjoying it.

We'll see how things progress when the firmware update i've heard about is public & they have the new mold that was talked about. So far though the mouse is great.


----------



## johnsamuels

I hope you're right mate, but I've gone from a certain sale to a probably not just from customers posting their experiences.

Has anyone tested input lag on it yet?


----------



## benllok

I've been following this product release from some time now. It indeed is interesting to see a company taking care of the critics and recommendations from the community. I hope they get far in the correct way.

I see how funny it is when companies like Logitech, with it's great engineering and experience can ruin it's latest offerings with bad shapes and weight decisions. Zowie, who got into the mouse market thanks to it's simplicity and minimalistic mice, ruined that with click latency and other QC issues.

That's why I'm so interested in this mouse, they are offering what Logitech couldn't offer and what Zowie wanted to introduce:

+ Good engineering: almost no click delay; raw feeling; great tracking with no smoothing
+ Minimalistic design: shape; weight; no drivers!

However, after reading all the feedback from recent users, they have some serious quality problems that could ruin another promising competitor. I want to believe they are going to fix all negatives in this mouse and release something many of us have been waiting for a long time. I want to stop kissing each easy girl out there and get one to marry for life already.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> I've been following this product release from some time now. It indeed is interesting to see a company taking care of the critics and recommendations from the community. I hope they get far in the correct way.
> 
> I see how funny it is when companies like Logitech, with it's great engineering and experience can ruin it's latest offerings with bad shapes and weight decisions. Zowie, who got into the mouse market thanks to it's simplicity and minimalistic mice, ruined that with click latency and other QC issues.
> 
> That's why I'm so interested in this mouse, they are offering what Logitech couldn't offer and what Zowie wanted to introduce:
> 
> + Good engineering: almost no click delay; raw feeling; great tracking with no smoothing
> + Minimalistic design: shape; weight; no drivers!
> 
> However, after reading all the feedback from recent users, they have some serious quality problems that could ruin another promising competitor. I want to believe they are going to fix all negatives in this mouse and release something many of us have been waiting for a long time. I want to stop kissing each easy girl out there and get one to marry for life already.


I feel they'll get there soon. Even though it's an oem shell i like the feel. Tracking is indeed solid & button response is just great. A few issues prior but now it's been taking over my Roccat Xtd optical as top spot. Which says alot since that mouse feels great to me.


----------



## dlano

I've had this mouse for a little over a month now as my main, with others inbetween for testing (avior 7000, ebay grey market deathadder 3.5G, second hand G400 I picked up). Every time I come back to the FM so far (Other mice recently used includes IE3s, an IMO and WMO, SS Rival, Aurora, Naos, G302).

I didn't bother looking at the website, as far as I'm concerned every peripheral company will come up with a crap load of marketing trash. It's just the name of the game sadly, so I looked to see what others on here said before deciding to pull the trigger. So here are some of my (subjective) thoughts.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Positives:
-Shape (OEM or not) is very easy to get to used to (my hands are ~19.5cm long, my GFs are shorter and she could use it too)
-Fantastic weight for an ergo mouse with 2 side buttons
-Reasonable build quality for a new company with good mouse clicks with only a little pre-travel and decent cable and mouse wheel
-Great tracking
-Below average click latency

Negatives:

-Expensive, assuming the typical 1:1 conversion we're stuck with, £60 is very high for a new mouse that is deliberately light on features
-Stock mouse feet were rubbish, used some Tiger gaming feet for MS mice as quick replacements (much better)
-Side mouse buttons a little loose, and a tad poorly positioned relative to the thumb groove, but the button design does let me roll my thumb up to them (just).
-Shiny plastic sides; hated them on Razer mice and accumulate grime even though my hands are clean and not overly sweaty
-CPI inconsistancy issues (recently addressed by FM, hoping for the new firmware soon)
-500Hz when using a 144Hz monitor is a tad irritating, but livable



I am being nitpicky in parts, but only because this is the closest to my ideal mouse yet, and I'm hoping feedback will help FM address some of these issues. As I said, I try others but keep going back to FM thanks to the great combo of a good shape, with fantastic weight and tracking, and I hope they refine their design further because it has the potential to be one of the best mice to buy today.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Yea I've been using my logitech again while waiting on my warranty FM to show up and man do I miss it


----------



## thrillhaus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> As for a motherboard list, we hope to have that complete by next week. There are certain timing and voltage issues we are finding in certain models.


What happened to this?


----------



## lntricate

As mentioned earlier I had problem with the first mouse I received, loose and filmsy side buttons.

Through alot of hassle, I had to return the product to amazon, PAID for express shipping just because I no longer have a usable mouse, and received the 2nd mouse today. (Take note this is all international shipping).

Second mouse came today, same issue as the first mouse, side button loose/filmsy, but on mouose4 instead of mouse5 (the front side button not the back).

Speaks a lot of quality control, emailed their support team, let's hope it doesn't take me another 2 weeks to get another new mouse and they do something about it this time. I don' t think I'll be repurchasing their mouse again if it comes to having to return to amazon etc etc.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

I had my original FM overnighted when purchased from Amazon. I'm not a very patient person when it comes to stuff I buy lol. It's going on 7 days now since FM told me they were sending me a new unit







I understand to an extent but it does suck that it seems to be pretty common place. I had zero issues with mine and thought I got lucky lol... then one day it didn't work at all.


----------



## lntricate

You're from the states so it doesn't matter, it cost me 15 uSD everytime I have to ship it back, albeit it's 1 time so far but i'm looking at a second time here and I hope the support team of FM knows that this is just really bad, on an international market.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lntricate*
> 
> You're from the states so it doesn't matter, it cost me 15 uSD everytime I have to ship it back, albeit it's 1 time so far but i'm looking at a second time here and I hope the support team of FM knows that this is just really bad, on an international market.


15USD to RMA?, Huh, that sucks, here in denmark the party that sold the items has to pay for the shipping costs for RMA's (Within reason.)


----------



## markts

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrWhiteRX7*
> 
> Looks like my Finalmouse has died
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing works except right click lol. No pointer, no movement or left click or anything. If I hit right click it just opens the windows dead center. I've uninstalled driver, tried multiple usb ports and even reset bios (which I know isn't necessary). Sadly, throw my old G700s in and no problems.
> 
> Hopefully there's a decent warranty? haha


Same. Two month old mouse seems to have given up the ghost. Support email sent.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *markts*
> 
> Same. Two month old mouse seems to have given up the ghost. Support email sent.


Hey Markts,

Sorry to hear that. Make sure your support rep gives you the option to get the updated model as your replacement since that will be replacing all current batches soon. And will prevent reliability issues in the future. Same goes for anyone else contacting support at this point in time, make sure you are given the option for an updated model.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## markts

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *markts*
> 
> Same. Two month old mouse seems to have given up the ghost. Support email sent.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrWhiteRX7*
> 
> Looks like my Finalmouse has died
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing works except right click lol. No pointer, no movement or left click or anything. If I hit right click it just opens the windows dead center. I've uninstalled driver, tried multiple usb ports and even reset bios (which I know isn't necessary). Sadly, throw my old G700s in and no problems.
> 
> Hopefully there's a decent warranty? haha


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Markts,
> 
> Sorry to hear that. Make sure your support rep gives you the option to get the updated model as your replacement since that will be replacing all current batches soon. And will prevent reliability issues in the future. Same goes for anyone else contacting support at this point in time, make sure you are given the option for an updated model.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Absolutely will! Thank you Jude!


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Yep, I was given the option to wait for the updated version and have chosen to do so. Thank you again FM!


----------



## jubi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Markts,
> 
> Sorry to hear that. Make sure your support rep gives you the option to get the updated model as your replacement since that will be replacing all current batches soon. And will prevent reliability issues in the future. Same goes for anyone else contacting support at this point in time, make sure you are given the option for an updated model.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


How soon will the batches be replaced? Also, how can I identify if I buy the first edition or the summer edition?


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

I was told 4 to 6 weeks before they're ready.


----------



## H00NIGAN

Jude,
I am planning on purchasing this mouse for myself and maybe my clan. How can I make sure, when purchasing from Amazon, that I will be getting the latest build?

Thank you

Quote:


> Make sure your support rep gives you the option to get the updated model as your replacement since that will be replacing all current batches soon. And will prevent reliability issues in the future. Same goes for anyone else contacting support at this point in time, make sure you are given the option for an updated model.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *H00NIGAN*
> 
> Jude,
> I am planning on purchasing this mouse for myself and maybe my clan. How can I make sure, when purchasing from Amazon, that I will be getting the latest build?
> 
> Thank you


Wait about 4 to 6 weeks, they're not ready yet. I'm sure they'll be marked as latest revision or something.


----------



## jeshuastarr

is there any way to purchase the new version directly?


----------



## banjogood

Did the other update thread get nuked or I'm blind?


----------



## Axaion

It got nuked

Seems that we are not allowed to talk to any reps except LOGITECH and stuff because that would make ocn sad and get less shekles from them

that or jude deleted it, which i doubt


----------



## offshell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> Did the other update thread get nuked or I'm blind?


Looks like it was deleted. You can always track down the cached version of it as well.


----------



## banjogood

maybe someone wasn't happy abuot all the information we were getting lol. rip


----------



## markts

WTH, seriously? That's pretty silly, right there. Too bad too - lots of good info and a place to find out about the new model.

Ah, maybe that's why - by everyone knowing there's a new model coming out will kill the sales of the old one...


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello everyone,

for those wondering, the other thread I made with all the information was deleted by the OCN mods. im not entirely sure how to share updates and information at the moment but I'm confident we can figure something out!

It seems we just would need to release our information in a general press release of sorts that interested individuals would need to follow. And then if it is indirectly shared with the community from that point on its fair game. Atleast that's my understanding. With the current rules it seems direct community engagement is a no go. I was not aware of this since it seems other brands have engaged with new product info in the past, this must no longer be the case.

In the meantime I will get the cached copy of the thread hopefully to post somewhere else for those interested.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## jsx3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> It got nuked
> 
> Seems that we are not allowed to talk to any reps except LOGITECH and stuff because that would make ocn sad and get less shekles from them
> 
> that or jude deleted it, which i doubt


Multiple Logitech threads made by cpate were also deleted. The site simply wants brands to buy into a clause for promotion. Otherwise you get nuked.

Brands can still make post, but cannot share or engage in community relations via product.


----------



## a_ak57

Thank you mods for making sure companies cannot reach out to the community and that nobody ever sees reviews because god forbid someone post one on here instead of your crappy review section! Boy would this site be unusable if not for your valiant efforts to rid us of these blights.


----------



## Brightmist

It's hard to understand the logic behind the deletion of such a thread.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Win win for everyone except the mods I guess.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brightmist*
> 
> It's hard to understand the logic behind the deletion of such a thread.


It's pretty simple, If any kind of business is being done on their site they want some money from it. The downside of deleting threads like this is pissing off their users who then adblock_activate.


----------



## nthoang1293

Just received my Finalmouse from Amazon. The mouse 4 button works fine but everytime i press it i changes the dpi as well, so now i have 2 dpi buttons and the mouse 4 button basically does 2 things, backwards and change dpi. How do I fix this?


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> Just received my Finalmouse from Amazon. The mouse 4 button works fine but everytime i press it i changes the dpi as well, so now i have 2 dpi buttons and the mouse 4 button basically does 2 things, backwards and change dpi. How do I fix this?


Email customer support and ask for a new mouse.


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Email customer support and ask for a new mouse.


I'm hoping that this could be fixed with a firmware upgrade of some sorts?
Do I have to return the mouse for a new one because I live in another country and it will be very expensive and takes a long time for the return process


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> I'm hoping that this could be fixed with a firmware upgrade of some sorts?
> Do I have to return the mouse for a new one because I live in another country and it will be very expensive and takes a long time for the return process


The only way to find is by asking customer support. Not sure why you're coming to a forum instead of the actual organization for these kinds of problems...


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> The only way to find is by asking customer support. Not sure why you're coming to a forum instead of the actual organization for these kinds of problems...


I emailed customer support right away, just asking here to see if anybody knows something else


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jsx3*
> 
> Brands can still make post, but cannot share or engage in community relations via product.


Which is, in case of this subforum, bad to some extend imo.

If they plan on genuinely listening to this subforum's community its constructive feedback it could improve a lot of products.

Perhaps it could be allowed... within reason.


----------



## espgodson

Hmm will wait to contact support until updated version is out


----------



## nthoang1293

Sent an email to support on Saturday and still no reply so far....
I also noticed the quality control stamp on my mouse is from Nov 2014, and the thumb grip is not rubber but 100% plastic. Does that mean my mouse is from an old batch? That is bad because I just bought it a month ago


----------



## lntricate

I'm an international buyer and have 2 defective mouse in a row, I'm still using the slightly defective one (side button loose), but their customer support has gotten back and I've selected the option to wait for 5-6 more weeks till their new summer/spring version is released and they will send it to me immediately once it's ready for customer release.

FinalMouse is a great mouse however the quality control is questionable, fix that and you have one of the best mice in the market.Their support gets back to you within 24-48 business hours so give it time. However unless you are in a rush and need a mouse, the only way for international user per my experience is to file a return on amazon, ship it back, get amazon to refund the shipping fee, and wait till they ship you a new one (Amazon)


----------



## Brightmist

Amazon does ship the replacement before the return arrives afaik, so you can just wait for the new one to arrive before shipping the faulty one back so you're not without a mouse at any time during this period unless the faulty unit is completely broken.


----------



## r0ach

This is strange, I had two Finalmouse and the first one I opened was just kinda "so so" and 800 DPI felt off on it. I just opened the second box today and the other mouse feels way better in every aspect. 800 DPI actually feels like 800 DPI and the left clicker has no pre-travel to it like the first one. No wonder the manufacturing was moved heh. I did have similar issues between two original Deathadder 3g's back in the day though.


----------



## nthoang1293

So its been 5 days since my first email and 3 from my 2nd email and I still haven't received any response from support.
And I also noticed that my mouse has every single problem that has been reported of this mouse: Pre travel left click, filmsy mouse4 button that also happens to change the DPI every time it is pressed, a small mold on the left click base, len rattles when lifted off and put down. I hope I'll get a replacement without having to return the mouse because its gonna cost a lot and I don't think they want to pay for that


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> So its been 5 days since my first email and 3 from my 2nd email and I still haven't received any response from support.
> And I also noticed that my mouse has every single problem that has been reported of this mouse: Pre travel left click, filmsy mouse4 button that also happens to change the DPI every time it is pressed, a small mold on the left click base, len rattles when lifted off and put down. I hope I'll get a replacement without having to return the mouse because its gonna cost a lot and I don't think they want to pay for that


Hello Nthoang,

I just had support check your requests since that delay in response is pretty abnormal. However I am being told no such emails can be found. Can you try emailing [email protected] via another email, perhaps the first one is being filtered.

Kind Regards,
FinalMouse Jude


----------



## markts

Jude, could you also check mine? I had very prompt response from support when I first contacted them about my dead mouse. When I replied that I would like a replacement sent instead of waiting the 6+ weeks for the new model, I haven't heard a thing back. Last contact from support was 8 days ago. markts at gmail dot com.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *markts*
> 
> Jude, could you also check mine? I had very prompt response from support when I first contacted them about my dead mouse. When I replied that I would like a replacement sent instead of waiting the 6+ weeks for the new model, I haven't heard a thing back. Last contact from support was 8 days ago. markts at gmail dot com.


Hey Markts,

It seems yours was taken care of. I'll make sure you get some tracking confirmation so you know when your replacement arrives.

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## markts

Thank you!


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> This is strange, I had two Finalmouse and the first one I opened was just kinda "so so" and 800 DPI felt off on it. I just opened the second box today and the other mouse feels way better in every aspect. 800 DPI actually feels like 800 DPI and the left clicker has no pre-travel to it like the first one. No wonder the manufacturing was moved heh. I did have similar issues between two original Deathadder 3g's back in the day though.


so its safe for me to order one now?
i was worried about the pre-travel issue the most, also an unstable sensor never helps.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> so its safe for me to order one now?
> i was worried about the pre-travel issue the most, also an unstable sensor never helps.


Hello Discoprince,

I will be killed for recommending this, but the updated model is only 3 or so weeks away. I would hold off.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## H00NIGAN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Discoprince,
> 
> I will be killed for recommending this, but the updated model is only 3 or so weeks away. I would hold off.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


You should get a raise for saying that.
I will most certainly be purchasing a FM15 or two in 3 to 4 weeks time.
Just the customer service alone is huge not to mention the active presence on these forums.


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Nthoang,
> 
> I just had support check your requests since that delay in response is pretty abnormal. However I am being told no such emails can be found. Can you try emailing [email protected] via another email, perhaps the first one is being filtered.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> FinalMouse Jude


Thank you. I just sent another request from a gmail account, hope your support can get it.
Appreciate your response


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Discoprince,
> 
> I will be killed for recommending this, but the updated model is only 3 or so weeks away. I would hold off.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


will it be listed as a new item on retailers sites like Amazon, or am I still chancing getting old stock?


----------



## nthoang1293

received a reply from support and I'm waiting for the updated unit as a replacement. So excited, without any quality control issue this will be the best fps gaming mouse on the market


----------



## r0ach

If people want to see something interesting, try plugging in a Finalmouse or WMO into a Bay Trail chipset. Closest thing I've felt to 1990's style mouse movement in a while. I wasn't expecting it from Bay Trail, but there it is:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1551642/bay-trail-platform-the-surprise-of-the-century-for-mouse-movement


----------



## Chimpwn

Anyone have any info on when the updated version will be available?

I wanna get this mouse but I don't wanna have it be shoddy.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chimpwn*
> 
> Anyone have any info on when the updated version will be available?
> I wanna get this mouse but I don't wanna have it be shoddy.


It's already been talked about, 3-4 weeks until the summer addition will be out.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Regarding the latest firmware update, I've been testing it for a while. I haven't gotten the DPI changing bug, and the inconsistency issue seems to be improved, but there's definitely room for further improvement. I don't think it has anything to do with the sensor's FPS, I'm 99% sure it's some kind of technical error, possibly mostly/solely due to whatever's causing the inconsistent performance from mouse to mouse, IE: quality control margin of error too large.

I don't like how it feels in 2D environments now. I'm not sure if it's mostly due to the change they made or if it's just the inconsistency I'm feeling.

My mousetester graphs are pretty much the same as before. Some like this:


And some like this:


----------



## Junki3e

@MaximilianKohler What is a 2D environment?


----------



## MattVonX

I imagine the desktop...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Desktop, RTS & MOBA games, etc..


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Regarding the latest firmware update, I've been testing it for a while. I haven't gotten the DPI changing bug, and the inconsistency issue seems to be improved, but there's definitely room for further improvement. I don't think it has anything to do with the sensor's FPS, I'm 99% sure it's some kind of technical error, possibly mostly/solely due to whatever's causing the inconsistent performance from mouse to mouse, IE: quality control margin of error too large.
> 
> I don't like how it feels in 2D environments now. I'm not sure if it's mostly due to the change they made or if it's just the inconsistency I'm feeling.
> 
> My mousetester graphs are pretty much the same as before. Some like this:
> 
> 
> And some like this:


can u plot the interval vs time corresponding to those two?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> can u plot the interval vs time corresponding to those two?


I only saved the png for the previous ones, so I did some new ones.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



First swipe, xvelocity:


First swipe, update time:


Second swipe, xvelocity:


Second swipe, update time:


Third swipe, xvelocity:


Third, swipe, update time:




This good?


----------



## benllok

Guys can anybody sum up the pros and cons of Finalmouse15 vs a Zowie EC2-a? Which one is better in your opinion and why? I want to end my mouse hunt already

I also had an eye over the FK2 but coming from a MX518 that still is going strong btw, I thought an EC2-a would be better, any suggestions please?

Thanks in advance


----------



## MaximilianKohler

EC2 is a palm/claw grip only mouse shape, so FPS games only.

FinalMice vary a lot in sensor performance from mouse to mouse currently, but they're changing to a new factory in a few months I think. Zowie sensors have all performed quite poorly for me, but they do have some variance in sensor performance as well. So there's a chance you could get a good one. I think the chances of getting an FM that performs better than a Zowie is higher, especially if you wait a few months.

FK has the best shape IMO if you have smaller hands. If you have med-large hands it's too thin to palm grip for many people. FM shape is decent, but you can't hit the side buttons without releasing your grip on the mouse.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1139543/official-the-mouse-suggestion-thread/4350_50#post_23725979

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd


----------



## jayfkay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> Guys can anybody sum up the pros and cons of Finalmouse15 vs a Zowie EC2-a? Which one is better in your opinion and why? I want to end my mouse hunt already
> 
> I also had an eye over the FK2 but coming from a MX518 that still is going strong btw, I thought an EC2-a would be better, any suggestions please?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Why drop that beautiful beast?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I only saved the png for the previous ones, so I did some new ones.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> First swipe, xvelocity:
> 
> 
> First swipe, update time:
> 
> 
> Second swipe, xvelocity:
> 
> 
> Second swipe, update time:
> 
> 
> Third swipe, xvelocity:
> 
> 
> Third, swipe, update time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This good?


idk but my computer/setup gives me fluctuations around the microsecond range. there was a brief discussion back in the g303 thread and it seems +-0.1ms jitters are more typical... but for some reason my setup (and also haggard's) is much more stable

i dont think it's important, but im fairly sure it contributes to the roughness in those mousetester plots (which i also don't think is important but whatever)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

With every mouse yours does that? Because my graphs differ very significantly from mouse to mouse.


----------



## qsxcv

yep (wmo, ie3.0, g100s, g302, g303) except ninox aurora which skips polls every 15ms or so

http://www.overclock.net/t/1550666/usb-polling-precision#post_23783721

haggard's is even better than mine

my laptop has +- 0.1ms


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> EC2 is a palm/claw grip only mouse shape, so FPS games only.
> 
> FinalMice vary a lot in sensor performance from mouse to mouse currently, but they're changing to a new factory in a few months I think. Zowie sensors have all performed quite poorly for me, but they do have some variance in sensor performance as well. So there's a chance you could get a good one. I think the chances of getting an FM that performs better than a Zowie is higher, especially if you wait a few months.
> 
> FK has the best shape IMO if you have smaller hands. If you have med-large hands it's too thin to palm grip for many people. FM shape is decent, but you can't hit the side buttons without releasing your grip on the mouse.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1139543/official-the-mouse-suggestion-thread/4350_50#post_23725979
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd


Thanks for your detailed response Maximilian, I guess it's best to wait some more time to see what FM has to offer, I really want to give them a chance because it seems they are making an effort to listen to the community and work for a better/ideal mouse for serious users, I hope they can really improve their control quality issues and engineering stuff. In the other hand, I'm really sad that Zowie didn't figure out correctly their weaknesses like the sensor inconsistency, button lag and other QC issues, the idea they are projecting is nice: minimalism and comfort for professional use, but they NEED to look at their issues if they want to be considered a real "gaming mouse" solution.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jayfkay*
> Why drop that beautiful beast?


I think it's about time to get a new mouse, specially after 6 years. The only issue I have with my MX518 is that it turns off when I accidentally hit my keyboard with it, it seems it disconnects because of the impact. Besides that, I think there should be already a mouse in the market that stands out for it's better sensor/comfort/engineering. Come on, where are these mouse companies looking at? Is it hard to develop a mouse that completely takes care of:

*+ Comfortable shape* (obviously right Logitech?)
*+ Optimal sensor stability* (stable DPI steps, adequate LOD, good sensor positioning, etc)
*+ Minimum click delay* (this is important if you want to be called a professional mouse right?, give us nice switches!)
*+ Great control quality and durability* (we don't want scroll wheel issues neither button pre-travel, what about a non stiff cable)
*+ No drivers* (serious gamers don't like ****ty software that adds up to smoothness)

I'd pay $100 for a mouse that could deliver all of that.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Wow, ok so not only did it _(disabling windows and BIOS power saving features)_ affect the polling stability, but it affected the xvelocity graphs too. I will definitely test more ingame now to see how it feels.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1550666/usb-polling-precision/50_50#post_23822420


----------



## jayfkay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> The only issue I have with my MX518 is that it turns off when I accidentally hit my keyboard with it, it seems it disconnects because of the impact.


What you need to do is open the mouse and pull the cable into the mouse 1-2cm so it eases the "pressure" on the connector which, because the cable is so tight, can cause disconnects.
Picture: http://prntscr.com/6wueqk
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> Besides that, I think there should be already a mouse in the market that stands out for it's better sensor/comfort/engineering.


You would think that right? Well... HOWEVER all that new mice seem to bring in comparison to the mx518 is higher IPS (aka malfunction speed up to inhuman levels) and more DPI variety. No increased framerate, no increased precision. Only the abundance of prediction and this is a matter of preference. The ability to select custom DPI steps and not be bothered with "native and interpolated" anymore is sexy tho, but that got thrown away with simplicistic mice like the FM.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Hopefully the new build is very solid & QC issues are handled. The mouse is unavailable currently On Amazon, the summer edition is near & i plan on getting one unless things change for me.


----------



## markts

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *markts*
> 
> Jude, could you also check mine? I had very prompt response from support when I first contacted them about my dead mouse. When I replied that I would like a replacement sent instead of waiting the 6+ weeks for the new model, I haven't heard a thing back. Last contact from support was 8 days ago. markts at gmail dot com.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Markts,
> 
> It seems yours was taken care of. I'll make sure you get some tracking confirmation so you know when your replacement arrives.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


Hi Jude,

I haven't received any indication of tracking and no sign of the mouse (though I'm sure now that I'm writing this, it will show up!).

Has it been shipped? At this point, are we really a week away from the new version? If so and it hasn't shipped ....

Thanks,
Mark


----------



## markts

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *markts*
> 
> Hi Jude,
> 
> I haven't received any indication of tracking and no sign of the mouse (though I'm sure now that I'm writing this, it will show up!).
> 
> Has it been shipped? At this point, are we really a week away from the new version? If so and it hasn't shipped ....
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark


This has been resolved with with the help of Jude and support at FinalMouse. I've dealt with support at various high-end gaming equipment manufacturers lately and FM came through better than all of them. Thank you!


----------



## LegoFarmer

FM could very well pull me away from Zowie.


----------



## H00NIGAN

The shape and scroll will button position (forward) on the EC - A series mice is so perfect but people are still reporting some of the same ole issues as before with the scroll wheel and I think. They have had plenty of time to get all of that resolved. Time to give the new guy a chance for sure.


----------



## nthoang1293

FrankieonPCin1080p said in his recent CSGO video that he's using the Finalmouse....damn!


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@Jude In the thread that got deleted you asked about the side buttons. Well I put a bunch of layers of electric tape in the thumb indent to push it out, and I think the current shape of the side buttons is pretty good actually. If they're placed so that when you're in your normal grip your thumb rests right under them, then to press them you just tilt/squeeze your thumb slightly up, it seems nice.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> FrankieonPCin1080p said in his recent CSGO video that he's using the Finalmouse....damn!


It's a great mouse so i can see why. Starting to gain some followers & users slowly but surely.


----------



## MathewA

@Jude I contacted finalmouse support last Saturday the 18th regarding a dead mouse. I got a follow up message the next day asking for shipping information in order to send a manual replacement in which I replied with the necessary information. I tried contacting support twice since then asking for tracking information or a status update and I haven't been replied to. Could you please give me a status update? The ticket was opened under the email [email protected] Thank you.


----------



## Junki3e

@MaximilianKohler I am aware that you have tested the latest FM firmware, me too. I would like to ask you if the 400 DPI step is accurate on yours, because the 400 DPI step on my FM seems to feel a little faster (like maybe 450 DPI??) when compared to my SS Sensei @400 DPI.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> @MaximilianKohler I am aware that you have tested the latest FM firmware, me too. I would like to ask you if the 400 DPI step is accurate on yours, because the 400 DPI step on my FM seems to feel a little faster (like maybe 450 DPI??) when compared to my SS Sensei @400 DPI.


It says it at the top of the graphs: http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1000_50#post_23814313 - at or below 400


----------



## Junki3e

Whoops my bad, did not pay attention to that :/


----------



## falcon26

In terms of size is the final mouse about the same size as a G9 or is it much larger?


----------



## thedogman

Why can I not buy this on amazon anymore?


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thedogman*
> 
> Why can I not buy this on amazon anymore?


An improved version is coming out shortly.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> An improved version is coming out shortly.


^^^^


----------



## rmp459

I know the improved model is due out in ~2 weeks. Was there an eta on when the ambi versions were going to be released? Can't seem to find where i read about it before.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Discoprince,
> 
> I will be killed for recommending this, but the updated model is only 3 or so weeks away. I would hold off.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Can you please share the specific improvements with us? Sharing the details can only benefit the company since you currently don't have another product available. Those interested will save their money and spend it on your product instead of buying something from someone else before the improved Finalmouse is released.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Can you please share the specific improvements with us? Sharing the details can only benefit the company since you currently don't have another product available. Those interested will save their money and spend it on your product instead of buying something from someone else before the improved Finalmouse is released.


He did share that, it all got deleted.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> He did share that, it all got deleted.


Well that was a thread that he created to advertise. This would just be him answering a question. Unless OCN is against that too...


----------



## a_ak57

It still really irks me that they simply deleted everything rather than just merge it into this thread. It wasn't simply an advertisement, it was a feedback session and I hope jude actually got to read most of what we posted.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Some of the pages can be found via google cache, but I don't see them all. Here's the OP.


----------



## offshell

I've been having one issue and one annoyance with my finalmouse recently. When I set the mouse back down sometimes it has a tendency to spin and force me to look straight up. It never seems to happen through movement, but only when I set the mouse down. The second thing is probably more just an annoyance than an issue but every now and then I'll set the mouse down and the force will cause it to click/fire. I'm not slamming this thing around especially since I usually only pick it up a few cm. Usually my pinky and ring finger are still in contact with the mouse pad the entire time with the mouse just moving at a bit of an angle but I still manage to send off accidental shots sometimes. Not sure if that's normal or not for others with the mouse.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *offshell*
> 
> The second thing is probably more just an annoyance than an issue but every now and then I'll set the mouse down and the force will cause it to click/fire. I'm not slamming this thing around especially since I usually only pick it up a few cm. Usually my pinky and ring finger are still in contact with the mouse pad the entire time with the mouse just moving at a bit of an angle but I still manage to send off accidental shots sometimes. Not sure if that's normal or not for others with the mouse.


I heard that about some Logitech mice.


----------



## jtl999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *offshell*
> 
> I've been having one issue and one annoyance with my finalmouse recently. When I set the mouse back down sometimes it has a tendency to spin and force me to look straight up. It never seems to happen through movement, but only when I set the mouse down. The second thing is probably more just an annoyance than an issue but every now and then I'll set the mouse down and the force will cause it to click/fire. I'm not slamming this thing around especially since I usually only pick it up a few cm. Usually my pinky and ring finger are still in contact with the mouse pad the entire time with the mouse just moving at a bit of an angle but I still manage to send off accidental shots sometimes. Not sure if that's normal or not for others with the mouse.


I had that happen recently with my Microsoft Basic Optical Mouse after 10 years of use


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> It's a great mouse so i can see why. Starting to gain some followers & users slowly but surely.


It's because they are being sponsored by FM, pls...


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> It's because they are being sponsored by FM, pls...


I'd like to be


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> It's because they are being sponsored by FM, pls...


I doubt that Frankie and LevelCap are sponsored by FM tbh


----------



## auzcar

Sorry if this has been mentioned but where can I buy the Finalmouse in Europe?


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> I doubt that Frankie and LevelCap are sponsored by FM tbh


They probably got the mouse for free.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auzcar*
> 
> Sorry if this has been mentioned but where can I buy the Finalmouse in Europe?


Finalmouse seem to think we are happy to import it at great expensive / messed up exchange rate from amazon. I'm waiting for them to stock amazon uk before I buy one.


----------



## auzcar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> Finalmouse seem to think we are happy to import it at great expensive / messed up exchange rate from amazon. I'm waiting for them to stock amazon uk before I buy one.


Ah okay, so that's how it is, screw that then haha.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auzcar*
> 
> Ah okay, so that's how it is, screw that then haha.


I think they are coming to Europe with the release of the summer edition (bumped into an archive of the thread for it)


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

SE should be dropping this week or next at the latest hopefully.


----------



## Jonagold

Something I want to remind of is that hardcore aimers don't rest their hand on the mouse when palm -gripping. They rather have a tense grip on the mouse to be able to make fast little corrections when aiming.. So don't even think doing something that you can "rest" your fingers on. Do something that you can have a tense grip even with a bigger hand so that every spot of your hand can have a good grip and there is enough space for all your fingers so that your fingers don't end up stacking on each other awkwardly or to touch and stuck on your mousepad..

Best shape at least for me would be the simple shape like Logitech g100s but like 120% bigger.. Simple works best for palm -grippers.. I suppose you have noticed how popular Zowie FK1 is even when it has bad clicks..


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Something I want to remind of is that hardcore aimers don't rest their hand on the mouse when palm -gripping. They rather have a tense grip on the mouse to be able to make fast little corrections when aiming.. So don't even think doing something that you can "rest" your fingers on. Do something that you can have a tense grip even with a bigger hand so that every spot of your hand can have a good grip and there is enough space for all your fingers so that your fingers don't end up stacking on each other awkwardly or to touch and stuck on your mousepad..
> 
> Best shape at least for me would be the simple shape like Logitech g100s but like 120% bigger.. Simple works best for palm -grippers.. I suppose you have noticed how popular Zowie FK1 is even when it has bad clicks..


As someone that uses anything from a claw/palm hybrid to a full palm depending on which mouse I'm using, I totally agree with you. Even though a relaxed palm grip is much more comfortable for me, I notice I play much better when I can use a hybrid grip in game and a palm grip for browsing the web/general computer use.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Something I want to remind of is that hardcore aimers don't rest their hand on the mouse when palm -gripping. They rather have a tense grip on the mouse to be able to make fast little corrections when aiming.. So don't even think doing something that you can "rest" your fingers on. Do something that you can have a tense grip even with a bigger hand so that every spot of your hand can have a good grip and there is enough space for all your fingers so that your fingers don't end up stacking on each other awkwardly or to touch and stuck on your mousepad..
> 
> Best shape at least for me would be the simple shape like Logitech g100s but like 120% bigger.. Simple works best for palm -grippers.. I suppose you have noticed how popular Zowie FK1 is even when it has bad clicks..


Grips are going to vary a lot between people, and mice.

But I agree that a larger ambi mouse is what's ideal. It's also what they're releasing next.


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Grips are going to vary a lot between people, and mice.
> 
> But I agree that a larger ambi mouse is what's ideal. It's also what they're releasing next.


Absolutely true.

What a hell of a lot of people want is a fk1 without the input lag/click stiffness, or a kana/sensei with a good sensor.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnsamuels*
> 
> Absolutely true.
> 
> What a hell of a lot of people want is a fk1 without the input lag/click stiffness, or a kana/sensei with a good sensor.


FK1 click latency has been fixed in newer batches.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I heard that about some Logitech mice.


happened on my G400s, often.


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> FK1 click latency has been fixed in newer batches.


I wish I could find confirmation of that from Zowie, or someone doing a more accurate test than banging two mice together.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Discoprince,
> 
> I will be killed for recommending this, but the updated model is only 3 or so weeks away. I would hold off.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


hype


----------



## detto87

Basically a ZA11.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Discoprince,
> 
> I will be killed for recommending this, but the updated model is only 3 or so weeks away. I would hold off.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


So, 3 weeks have passed.
Any news? Any hints? My F5 key is starting to fade away and I'm afraid that Amazon will ban my account for too heavy bandwith usage.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Basically a ZA11.
> So, 3 weeks have passed.
> Any news? Any hints? My F5 key is starting to fade away and I'm afraid that Amazon will ban my account for too heavy bandwith usage.


Right?? Tired of waiting now. Lol


----------



## Soulrolll

Don't buy this mouse, the DPI changes by itself randomly making an inconsistent crap gaming mouse and support doesn't even bother to reply.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> Don't buy this mouse, the DPI changes by itself randomly making an inconsistent crap gaming mouse and support doesn't even bother to reply.


Must be a personal experience.


----------



## Soulrolll

Yeah must be, that's why this guy mentions the same exact problem and also tells the story of others experiencing the same issue.

https://youtu.be/Obth3SPIz44

'erratic DPI problems' , yeah no thanks had high hopes for this mouse, back to the deathadder 2013 smoothing for me lol sigh.

Also notice the comments.

I'm not sure how anyone can get good at fps games when the game sensitivity changes because the mouse decides it just wants to change its dpi at random.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> Yeah must be, that's why this guy mentions the same exact problem and also tells the story of others experiencing the same issue.
> 
> https://youtu.be/Obth3SPIz44
> 
> 'erratic DPI problems' , yeah no thanks had high hopes for this mouse, back to the deathadder 2013 smoothing for me lol sigh.
> 
> Also notice the comments.
> 
> I'm not sure how anyone can get good at fps games when the game sensitivity changes because the mouse decides it just wants to change its dpi at random.


Look at the video description, it says:

UPDATE: firmware update in march fixed the variable dpi issue, and improved the inconsistency in the tracking some.


----------



## czerro

The firmware update is not really available at the moment. Unless you are hyping this mouse, you just won't get it. If you have problems with it, it's tough luck, until months later it's admitted the dpi is sketchy and fluctuating. This reviewer updated, stating the mouse now works well with the new firmware...but where do I get this firmware? Why does this make this mouse recommendable? Joe schmoe has to purchase a known defective mouse, then contact customer support and validate that they are worthy for the firmware update that is not yet released? This doesn't sound really goofy to you?

Not only are they withholding this supposed firmware fix, that only exists from people hyping the mouse, they want to sell you a new version before releasing the fix for the old.

This is insane, Ino.

Edit: This is Shilltown USA, now? You guys ripped me apart over sensor issues with Finalmouse which are now ACTUAL issues. You guys FIXED them, but you can't release the firmware updater for....Reasons. BUT, everyone can buy a 2015 Finalmouse at an exorbitant price really soon! Then everyone is like, 'wait...this mouse was supposed to be perfect, but it's way messed...and you claim that you can flash the firmware on it, and fix the fluctuating LOD/DPI thing?...but you won't actually go that far to do so and release the firmware that fixes these mice...and want me to buy another one of your mice instead?!

Hrm...

Like really ponder the comments that come out of these shills mouths. Finalmouse is indeed the last mouse you should ever purchase from Finalmouse. It comes with the cost of having to sift through ALOT of BS and eventually buying something decent. They have openly proclaimed that the issues that they denied existed with their mouse, do indeed exist, but they only send the fixes out to the shills, who then surprisingly say everything is fixed. This is so stupid on many levels, cause 99 percent of people are not shills, so they won't ever give you the fabled firmware update, that everyone already knows doesn't exist.


----------



## Soulrolll

Awesome so a firmware patch that I can't download anywhere and a mouse that's as good as over priced trash sold in bulk.

Unless you have the 'magic firmware patch', enjoy a mouse that changes sensitivity by itself, If I knew it was like this I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

Anyone with common sense should avoid this mouse, i'm just letting others know my experience so they look elsewhere because it's basically the PURETRACK Valor failure all over again.

***Solved by Firmware update ask FM


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Edit: This is Shilltown USA, now? You guys ripped me apart over sensor issues with Finalmouse which are now ACTUAL issues. You guys FIXED them, but you can't release the firmware updater for....Reasons. BUT, everyone can buy a 2015 Finalmouse at an exorbitant price really soon! Then everyone is like, 'wait...this mouse was supposed to be perfect, but it's way messed...and you claim that you can flash the firmware on it, and fix the fluctuating LOD/DPI thing?...but you won't actually go that far to do so and release the firmware that fixes these mice...and want me to buy another one of your mice instead?!


They are just imrpoving upon the Zowie Strategy.


----------



## Soulrolll

Yeah the only difference is Zowies mice don't change sensitivity by themselves, lol what a joke.

***Solved by Firmware update ask FM


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Not only are they withholding this supposed firmware fix, that only exists from people hyping the mouse, they want to sell you a new version before releasing the fix for the old.
> 
> This is insane, Ino.


Ah so that is the second insane thing. I just found it amusing that he complained about an issue that the video says is now fixed. I didn't keep updated with the FM much as I think I clearly stated that I think it is too expensive anyway. Thought they released the FW by now?


----------



## banjogood

Their updated model isn't released yet. It'll probably have the new firmware in it, and the firmware patcher released to the public for people with the old mouse. chill


----------



## Oh wow Secret Cow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Thought they released the FW by now?


FM = Final Mouse
FW = ??? Feral Wombat?


----------



## Melan

firmware


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> Yeah the only difference is Zowies mice don't change sensitivity by themselves, lol what a joke.


I personally think that it is okay for their first mouse to be shaky. The problem was a sensor issue that they might not have known about. The fact that they're going out of their way to fix QC issues and sensor implementation issues is impressive, which is more than I can say for Zowie atm. This is coming from a zowie fan, too. These two companies will be direct competition soon.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> Their updated model isn't released yet. It'll probably have the new firmware in it, and the firmware patcher released to the public for people with the old mouse. chill


It was said that the summer model will have the new firmware in it. The firmware update will be available for people with an older batch as well. You are right though people need to chill.


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> Yeah the only difference is Zowies mice don't change sensitivity by themselves, lol what a joke.


At least they addressed why, with it relating to the automatic surface calibration the sensor uses. Zowie seem to refuse to address any issues their mice may have.


----------



## mrvirtualboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> firmware


I dunno. I like Feral Wombat more.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> Yeah the only difference is Zowies mice don't change sensitivity by themselves, lol what a joke.


PMW3310-based Zowie mice have the exact same problem as seen here. They are just different by design, which limits the bug from happening very often. The bug is on SROM-level so every mouse which has the PMW3310 is affected. A similar case can be seen with the KPM: disable the surface calibration and you'll notice the same issue. When you calibrate the sensor to the surface _and_ save the calibration data, you don't face this issue. Zowie has 2(?) different pre-calibrated saved settings so you cannot have their mice in a mode which would actively re-calibrate the sensor like the FM or the KPM in default mode do. However, I would guess that this calibration is exactly what causes the sensor to feel more disconnected for some. E.g. MaximilianKohler reported the FK1 to feel bad while he kept the FM and the KPM very good, both of which use the active re-calibration method by default. In my opinion, the KPM feels different when it's in the default mode; I don't want to argue which behavior is better.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Well, guys... Opinions? Do I buy the ZA12 or use my WMO til FM releases their WMO shape? (I feel like their sensor implementation would make it worth it). I really want them to have a rubber cable option. Can anybody confirm that they do use Japanese omrons instead of chinese?


----------



## Oh wow Secret Cow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> Well, guys... Opinions? Do I buy the ZA12 or use my WMO til FM releases their WMO shape? (I feel like their sensor implementation would make it worth it). I really want them to have a rubber cable option. Can anybody confirm that they do use Japanese omrons instead of chinese?


Just looking at the ZA12, I don't think it's very comparable to the WMO. I'd wait, or just make an WMO-Aurora


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oh wow Secret Cow*
> 
> Just looking at the ZA12, I don't think it's very comparable to the WMO. I'd wait, or just make an WMO-Aurora


The whole point of replacing my WMO is to have a sensor that performs equally with a higher pcs or better (FM), even though the zowie's implementation isn't as good as the FM from what I have heard.


----------



## Soulrolll

I find it funny that these companies can't get a basic mouse done right, anyone with a brain can see the target market just wants a ms3.0 / WMO shape with 500hz and good grip / texture while being lightweight

Instead they bog it down with dpi problems and stuff that no one cares about.

I would honestly still use my 3.0 if I could use 500hz in windows 8.1

***Solved by Firmware update ask FM


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> anyone with a brain can see the target market


83598345dpi sells better to target market


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> I find it funny that these companies can't get a basic mouse done right, anyone with a brain can see the target market just wants a ms3.0 / WMO shape with 500hz and good grip / texture while being lightweight.
> 
> Instead they bog it down with dpi problems and **** that no one cares about.
> 
> I would honestly still use my 3.0 if I could use 500hz in windows 8.1
> 
> As for the final mouse... any mouse that changes sensitivity on its own can not be considered a gaming mouse? your supposed to build muscle memory for flicks and if something that basic is not consistent then whats the point, it's not really a 'Gaming Mouse'
> 
> A laugh at you people sticking up for them though, I want my money because they sold me a faulty product.


Stop with these nonsense posts.

1. They have one of the best return policies.
2. The bug is present in many recent mice, and it's already been fixed in the FM.
3. FM is probably the best company when it comes to listening to feedback, which is why they're making some pretty drastic changes in their new model that is set to come out soon.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Stop with these nonsense posts.
> 
> 1. They have one of the best return policies.
> 2. The bug is present in many recent mice, and it's already been fixed in the FM.
> 3. FM is probably the best company when it comes to listening to feedback, which is why they're making some pretty drastic changes in their new model that is set to come out soon.


This. IIRC, every 3310 mouse had this problem at one point if it hasn't been corrected. That includes the KPM, Rival, and M45.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> I find it funny that these companies can't get a basic mouse done right, anyone with a brain can see the target market just wants a ms3.0 / WMO shape with 500hz and good grip / texture while being lightweight
> 
> Instead they bog it down with dpi problems and stuff that no one cares about.
> 
> I would honestly still use my 3.0 if I could use 500hz in windows 8.1
> 
> As for the final mouse... any mouse that changes sensitivity on its own can not be considered a gaming mouse? your supposed to build muscle memory for flicks and if something that basic is not consistent then whats the point, it's not really a 'Gaming Mouse'
> 
> A laugh at you people sticking up for them though, I want my money because they sold me a faulty product.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Stop with these nonsense posts.
> 
> 1. They have one of the best return policies.
> 2. The bug is present in many recent mice, and it's already been fixed in the FM.
> 3. FM is probably the best company when it comes to listening to feedback, which is why they're making some pretty drastic changes in their new model that is set to come out soon.


^^^^ thank you couldn't agree more.


----------



## Hypertension

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> PMW3310-based Zowie mice have the exact same problem as seen here. They are just different by design, which limits the bug from happening very often. The bug is on SROM-level so every mouse which has the PMW3310 is affected. A similar case can be seen with the KPM: disable the surface calibration and you'll notice the same issue. When you calibrate the sensor to the surface _and_ save the calibration data, you don't face this issue. Zowie has 2(?) different pre-calibrated saved settings so you cannot have their mice in a mode which would actively re-calibrate the sensor like the FM or the KPM in default mode do. However, I would guess that this calibration is exactly what causes the sensor to feel more disconnected for some. E.g. MaximilianKohler reported the FK1 to feel bad while he kept the FM and the KPM very good, both of which use the active re-calibration method by default. In my opinion, the KPM feels different when it's in the default mode; I don't want to argue which behavior is better.


This, so much this.
And give this finalmouse company a chance, so far they are really promising in both their openness towards us and their search for feedback.
Regarding the dpi bug all the major knowledge that we got i believe came right from the finalmouse dude (the fact that it was a sensor bug with the auto recalibration stuff etc), whom then aknowledged the problem and went ahead fixing it for their product line. More than roccat has done as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hypertension*
> 
> This, so much this.
> And give this finalmouse company a chance, so far they are really promising in both their openness towards us and their search for feedback.
> Regarding the dpi bug all the major knowledge that we got i believe came right from the finalmouse dude (the fact that it was a sensor bug with the auto recalibration stuff etc), whom then aknowledged the problem and went ahead fixing it for their product line. More than roccat has done as far as I'm concerned.


Roccat just answered this
Quote:


> Thank you for your feedback on this issue. I have forwarded your E-Mail to our developers so that they can look into this problem. Are we allowed to contact you via this e-mail address should there be any questions from our devs on this issue?


to me when I reported the issue. I answered yes - and never heard from them again. It's been 3 months now so I would guess that they do not have any incentive to fix it which is understandable as the bug is in the PixArt's SROM _and_ the mouse works fine if you actually calibrate it. Although it might hurt their sales as the mouse is not calibrated by default and thus has the issue.

EDIT: And I have to agree with @MaximilianKohler. FM is obviously trying to make a change to the sensor itself which is something other companies are clearly not doing, and they are interacting a lot with the community. Also, people should stop mentioning the product price if they compare something to the products of Zowie.


----------



## Hypertension

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Roccat just answered this
> to me when I reported the issue. I answered yes - and never heard from them again. It's been 3 months now so I would guess that they do not have any incentive to fix it which is understandable as the bug is in the PixArt's SROM _and_ the mouse works fine if you actually calibrate it. Although it might hurt their sales as the mouse is not calibrated by default and thus has the issue.


I received the same answer, like 1 year ago though, after that new info came up in the forums regarding that problem and the fact that it was actually pixart srom fault together with the possible dcu on fix, it's all in the huge roccat kpm thread that i believe you've been active in aswell =)
Anyway, enough about roccat, i feel like we're going ot







, i was just trying to give faith to finalmouse and some proper info to some haters that talk trash without being informed.


----------



## Soulrolll

The fact is I recieved faulty hardware, if the final mouse website said that dpi randomly changes on it's own I wouldnt have purchased. My comments are not nonsense... ask any decent gamer thats not a sponsored sellout if they want a dpi switching mouse... Maybe I just saved some people from being robbed. If thats what you want in a mouse be my guest.


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> The fact is I recieved faulty hardware, if the final mouse website said that dpi randomly changes on it's own I wouldnt have purchased. My comments are not nonsense... ask any decent gamer thats not a sponsored sellout if they want a dpi switching mouse... Maybe I just saved some people from being robbed. If thats what you want in a mouse be my guest.


You must be pretty delusional to think a company would advertise that their hardware has issues but given some of your comments in this thread it's hard to think otherwise.

You recieved a faulty product, it happens. They've acknowledged issues and you could even ask for the firmware if you really needed the fix or wait and get a free replacement in the form of the new summer model, can't say any fairer than that.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Roccat just answered this
> to me when I reported the issue. I answered yes - and never heard from them again. It's been 3 months now so I would guess that they do not have any incentive to fix it which is understandable as the bug is in the PixArt's SROM _and_ the mouse works fine if you actually calibrate it. Although it might hurt their sales as the mouse is not calibrated by default and thus has the issue.
> 
> EDIT: And I have to agree with @MaximilianKohler. FM is obviously trying to make a change to the sensor itself which is something other companies are clearly not doing, and they are interacting a lot with the community. Also, people should stop mentioning the product price if they compare something to the products of Zowie.


Yup. The new ZA series is $65 and I bet the new FM shape at the end of the year will be about that. Which would I rather have? Probably the FM for sensor implementation and customer support.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> Yup. The new ZA series is $65 and I bet the new FM shape at the end of the year will be about that. Which would I rather have? Probably the FM for sensor implementation and customer support.


The ZA will most likely drop to $60. You can't forget Reflexo barely started to sell Zowie mice. Once more people are selling the mice they will go down to $60.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The ZA will most likely drop to $60. You can't forget Reflexo barely started to sell Zowie mice. Once more people are selling the mice they will go down to $60.


Hopefully.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soulrolll*
> 
> The fact is I recieved faulty hardware, if the final mouse website said that dpi randomly changes on it's own I wouldnt have purchased. My comments are not nonsense... ask any decent gamer thats not a sponsored sellout if they want a dpi switching mouse... Maybe I just saved some people from being robbed. If thats what you want in a mouse be my guest.


Why would they advertise that? Lol you complain way too much. Look into a new hobby. Your comments are nonsense. A faulty product happens, you have the warranty, contact & they'll send a new one. I never had an issue with the customer support.

If the issue is fixed you would still complain about something. Lol


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> Well, guys... Opinions? Do I buy the ZA12 or use my WMO til FM releases their WMO shape? (I feel like their sensor implementation would make it worth it). I really want them to have a rubber cable option. Can anybody confirm that they do use Japanese omrons instead of chinese?


As far as I know the old batch uses omrons made in China (FM's site stated Japanese). Someone on youtube actually opened the mouse up. The sidebuttons use garbage switches of a brand that nobody has heard of.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> As far as I know the old batch uses omrons made in China (FM's site stated Japanese). Someone on youtube actually opened the mouse up. The sidebuttons use garbage switches of a brand that nobody has heard of.


kael?


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> kael?


Nope, literally unknown ones. I'll put a link to the video.

Link: https://youtu.be/e61rYKrxYXs


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> As far as I know the old batch uses omrons made in China (FM's site stated Japanese). Someone on youtube actually opened the mouse up. The sidebuttons use garbage switches of a brand that nobody has heard of.


Hello,

OMRON is a Japanese company that designs microswitches, their actual manufacturing happens in China for nearly all their products. I think it's fair to say people don't call Hondas American cars even though most of the factories are in the Midwest









As for the updated srom that stabilizes the dpi (along with other improvements), the flasher is absolutely 100% available to all customers right now. All you need to do is contact support.

From my knowledge production of the new batch has just about wrapped up and logistics is preparing units for North America and Europe. At this point it can be any moment now when these become available and I will make sure to let everyone know the minute I get news on availability.

And for those wondering I did make sure to read up on the update thread that got deleted, so none of your guys' input or comments went to waste.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> OMRON is a Japanese company that designs microswitches, their actual manufacturing happens in China for nearly all their products. I think it's fair to say people don't call Hondas American cars even though most of the factories are in the Midwest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the updated srom that stabilizes the dpi (along with other improvements), the flasher is absolutely 100% available to all customers right now. All you need to do is contact support.
> 
> From my knowledge production of the new batch has just about wrapped up and logistics is preparing units for North America and Europe. At this point it can be any moment now when these become available and I will make sure to let everyone know the minute I get news on availability.
> 
> And for those wondering I did make sure to read up on the update thread that got deleted, so none of your guys' input or comments went to waste.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Thanks, Jude.
While you're here, will there be a rubber cable option in the future?


----------



## Brightmist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> As far as I know the old batch uses omrons made in China (FM's site stated Japanese). Someone on youtube actually opened the mouse up. The sidebuttons use garbage switches of a brand that nobody has heard of.


Side button switches are Outemu or OTM for short. They also produce mechanical keyboard switches. Can't comment on quality tho.


----------



## Nilizum

For the summer edition the sensor position is still the same?


----------



## LunaTiC123

Price in EU will be around 70 euros inc. VAT right?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> OMRON is a Japanese company that designs microswitches, their actual manufacturing happens in China for nearly all their products. I think it's fair to say people don't call Hondas American cars even though most of the factories are in the Midwest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the updated srom that stabilizes the dpi (along with other improvements), the flasher is absolutely 100% available to all customers right now. All you need to do is contact support.
> 
> From my knowledge production of the new batch has just about wrapped up and logistics is preparing units for North America and Europe. At this point it can be any moment now when these become available and I will make sure to let everyone know the minute I get news on availability.
> 
> And for those wondering I did make sure to read up on the update thread that got deleted, so none of your guys' input or comments went to waste.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Thanks for stopping by Jude, so ready for the SE.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> OMRON is a Japanese company that designs microswitches, their actual manufacturing happens in China for nearly all their products. I think it's fair to say people don't call Hondas American cars even though most of the factories are in the Midwest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the updated srom that stabilizes the dpi (along with other improvements), the flasher is absolutely 100% available to all customers right now. All you need to do is contact support.
> 
> From my knowledge production of the new batch has just about wrapped up and logistics is preparing units for North America and Europe. At this point it can be any moment now when these become available and I will make sure to let everyone know the minute I get news on availability.
> 
> And for those wondering I did make sure to read up on the update thread that got deleted, so none of your guys' input or comments went to waste.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Thanks for the information. Can we expect to see other models, such as a smaller one, soon? I've heard a lot of good things about the sensor, but the shape just isn't for me. I'm hoping for a small ambidextrous mouse.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Thanks for the information. Can we expect to see other models, such as a smaller one, soon? I've heard a lot of good things about the sensor, but the shape just isn't for me. I'm hoping for a small ambidextrous mouse.


The summer edition will be an ambi, but hopefully not a small one. There are tons of small ambi mice.

Aurora, g100s, krait 2014, zowie mico, FK1, FK2, ZA series, most steelseries mice, etc...


----------



## Soulrolll

Can confirm that Final Mouse has a Firmware Patch that works and solves the dpi issue, it works and is painless.

Thanks for solving this problem.


----------



## Skyval

I thought the Summer Edition was just a refresh with better QC, improved side buttons, and a couple other things, and that the ambi version would be released later, closer to 2016.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Thanks for the information. Can we expect to see other models, such as a smaller one, soon? I've heard a lot of good things about the sensor, but the shape just isn't for me. I'm hoping for a small ambidextrous mouse.
> 
> 
> 
> The summer edition will be an ambi, but hopefully not a small one. There are tons of small ambi mice.
> 
> Aurora, g100s, krait 2014, zowie mico, FK1, FK2, ZA series, most steelseries mice, etc...
Click to expand...

Well, if it have sidebuttons then there are almost none.

G303 and Aurora.
G303 is stupid, aurora is nothing I would buy with the horrible quality control.

Hopefully a small one with sidebuttons and without a stupid shape and lightweight. No other mouse like that on the market outside aurora.
And Zowie got stupid switches.


----------



## H00NIGAN

The summer edition will be an ambi, but hopefully not a small one. There are tons of small ambi mice.

Aurora, g100s, krait 2014, zowie mico, FK1, FK2, ZA series, most steelseries mice, etc...

Well Max your hands look a little long so I'm sure you need a mouse for that is a little bigger than most would need. I bet they stay in the middle like a sensei shape from SS but who knows. I emailed FM techs yesterday and got this message today. I was asking about the ambidexterous shape and availability.

"I cannot currently speak to any news on an ambidextrous mouse. That being said, the new model will ship on roughly May 24th exclusively with Amazon.

Thanks,
FinalMouse Support"


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> OMRON is a Japanese company that designs microswitches, their actual manufacturing happens in China for nearly all their products. I think it's fair to say people don't call Hondas American cars even though most of the factories are in the Midwest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the updated srom that stabilizes the dpi (along with other improvements), the flasher is absolutely 100% available to all customers right now. All you need to do is contact support.
> 
> From my knowledge production of the new batch has just about wrapped up and logistics is preparing units for North America and Europe. At this point it can be any moment now when these become available and I will make sure to let everyone know the minute I get news on availability.
> 
> And for those wondering I did make sure to read up on the update thread that got deleted, so none of your guys' input or comments went to waste.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Ah, thank you for the clarification, did not know about this fact.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *H00NIGAN*
> 
> Well Max your hands look a little long so I'm sure you need a mouse for that is a little bigger than most would need.


I've been fine with the vast majority of mice up until recently when they started getting really thin. And I've seen lots of people concur.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *H00NIGAN*
> 
> The summer edition will be an ambi, but hopefully not a small one. There are tons of small ambi mice.
> 
> Aurora, g100s, krait 2014, zowie mico, FK1, FK2, ZA series, most steelseries mice, etc...
> 
> Well Max your hands look a little long so I'm sure you need a mouse for that is a little bigger than most would need. I bet they stay in the middle like a sensei shape from SS but who knows. I emailed FM techs yesterday and got this message today. I was asking about the ambidexterous shape and availability.
> 
> "I cannot currently speak to any news on an ambidextrous mouse. That being said, the new model will ship on roughly May 24th exclusively with Amazon.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support"


The summer edition is just the original finalmouse with the improved quality control and DPI variance bug fixed. The ambidextrous shape won't come until later IIRC. If you are correct, I might just have to put that zowie on hold and see what FM has to offer.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Yessssssss sooon! Can't wait to get my FM back. I have really disliked my logitech ever since lol!


----------



## LegoFarmer

If FM gave the option for a rubber cable and Jap omrons instead of chinese in their new shape (D2F-01F switches. Yeah, I can solder them, but I'd lose warranty), then I would have no reason to buy any other mouse.


----------



## espgodson

hmm so i was waiting to try to send my mouse back for this new replacement but since it's a completely different shape will finalmouse send that one in? my right click is super uneven with my left click & my led is just broken on scroll wheel.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> hmm so i was waiting to try to send my mouse back for this new replacement but since it's a completely different shape will finalmouse send that one in? my right click is super uneven with my left click & my led is just broken on scroll wheel.


It isn't a completely different shape. It is the same shape with quality control and tracking improvements. The new shapes come later on in the year.


----------



## espgodson

ohh ok just re-read it and feel like an idiot *_* looks like i'll be buying another mouse then xD


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> hmm so i was waiting to try to send my mouse back for this new replacement but since it's a completely different shape will finalmouse send that one in? my right click is super uneven with my left click & my led is just broken on scroll wheel.


Send it back they'll get you a new one.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> If FM gave the option for a rubber cable and Jap omrons instead of chinese in their new shape (D2F-01F switches. Yeah, I can solder them, but I'd lose warranty), then I would have no reason to buy any other mouse.


Jude answered the Omron question? Saying they are japanese omrons just made in china? Did you read his post?


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Send it back they'll get you a new one.
> Jude answered the Omron question? Saying they are japanese omrons just made in china? Did you read his post?


There are different types of omrons. The standard model is D2FC-F-7N which can come in like 10m and 20m click rated, but they still don't last as long as the D2F-01F switches and they don't feel as good (That part is completely subjective). I have D2F-01F switches in my WMO.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> It isn't a completely different shape. It is the same shape with quality control and tracking improvements. The new shapes come later on in the year.


Shapes? What kind of new shapes are they making? I thought there was just the ambidextrous one.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> Shapes? What kind of new shapes are they making? I thought there was just the ambidextrous one.


They are keeping the current shell (That's what is coming this month with quality control and tracking improvements) and later on in the year, they planned to release an ambidextrous one and another shell more suitable for full palm grip IIRC like the Naos 7000.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> There are different types of omrons. The standard model is D2FC-F-7N which can come in like 10m and 20m click rated, but they still don't last as long as the D2F-01F switches and they don't feel as good (That part is completely subjective). I have D2F-01F switches in my WMO.


Agreed that it is subjective as far as feel. The Left & rights felt great under my fingers


----------



## plath

Looking forward to people's reactions on the Summer Edition. Since it's becoming available for Europe. I have a Ninox Aurora already so I probably will get one of these too if it sounds good and the price is reasonable.


----------



## kicksome

I hope they review their pricing, aka decrease the price a little


----------



## espk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plath*
> 
> Looking forward to people's reactions on the Summer Edition. Since it's becoming available for Europe. I have a Ninox Aurora already so I probably will get one of these too if it sounds good and the price is reasonable.


Where?

So the last update was about a month ago, "this month", is there a more specific date or do I need to keep checking Amazon til it shows up?


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espk*
> 
> Where?
> 
> So the last update was about a month ago, "this month", is there a more specific date or do I need to keep checking Amazon til it shows up?


You could check a page back.

@H00NIGAN got an "answer" from FM-Support.
Quote:


> "I cannot currently speak to any news on an ambidextrous mouse. That being said, the new model will ship on roughly May 24th exclusively with Amazon.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support"


So it should be available somewhere around that date


----------



## STRATEGY

Is this summer version fixed the polling rate at 500hz?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *STRATEGY*
> 
> Is this summer version fixed the polling rate at 500hz?


Still at 500.


----------



## espk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> You could check a page back.
> 
> @H00NIGAN got an "answer" from FM-Support.
> So it should be available somewhere around that date


wow I guess I missed that, sorry was checking for Jude posts


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

The wait is becoming too long now. Lol


----------



## casualgamer

Any ballpark estimate as regards the release date? A week? A month? Hell, 2 months?


----------



## cryptos9099

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *H00NIGAN*
> 
> I emailed FM techs yesterday and got this message today. I was asking about the ambidexterous shape and availability.
> 
> "I cannot currently speak to any news on an ambidextrous mouse. That being said, the new model will ship on roughly May 24th exclusively with Amazon.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support"


For the people asking


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *casualgamer*
> 
> Any ballpark estimate as regards the release date? A week? A month? Hell, 2 months?


May 24th or so, not much longer. Still rather not wait. Lol


----------



## MasterBash

How does it feel for palm/claw grippers?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> How does it feel for palm/claw grippers?


Feels great to me, i palm & my hands are a pretty good size. 21cm, my fingers hang over a bit but not to where it is umcomfy. My paws approve of it, no cramps or discomfort after a good 3-4 hour gaming session either.


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Feels great to me, i palm & my hands are a pretty good size. 21cm, my fingers hang over a bit but not to where it is umcomfy. My paws approve of it, no cramps or discomfort after a good 3-4 hour gaming session either.


How does the glossy sodes feel to you? It feels horrible for me, I have sweaty hands.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> How does the glossy sodes feel to you? It feels horrible for me, I have sweaty hands.


I have dry hands and I still don't like glossy sides. I don't mind a glossy _surface_ (like on my Sensei RAW Frost Blue) but I prefer standard non-coated plastic for the sides (WMO, Aurora, G100s).


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I put electric tape over the glossy FM sides.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> How does the glossy sodes feel to you? It feels horrible for me, I have sweaty hands.


Don't care for it all that much, however it is not a breaker for me. I whipe it off at least once a week.


----------



## Vantavia

@FinalmouseJude

Will we see the option for 1000hz on the summer edition?

http://www.blurbusters.com/mouse-125hz-vs-500hz-vs-1000hz/

And will finalmouse aim to *top* the button latency/consistency charts?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison/0_100


----------



## STRATEGY

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude
> 
> Will we see the option for 1000hz on the summer edition?


I hope so


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude
> 
> Will we see the option for 1000hz on the summer edition?
> 
> http://www.blurbusters.com/mouse-125hz-vs-500hz-vs-1000hz/
> 
> And will finalmouse aim to *top* the button latency/consistency charts?
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison/0_100


Still to be at 500. I never had any latency click issues whatsoever.


----------



## dlano

I average ~175ms with the FM (humanbenchmark) whereas most others I get around 195 so it's already a fair bit better than average in my experience.


----------



## Melan

That "benchmark" has nothing to do with mouse response time at all. Not as long as human factor is involved.


----------



## dlano

I've found it a useful as a quick and dirty indicator of click latency, probably not perfect but it does highlight particularly bad or good mice usually.


----------



## Melan

It's absolutely unrelated.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Still to be at 500. I never had any latency click issues whatsoever.


It's not a case of it being a /perceivable/ issue, there's never been an addressed reason why it can't be the best or equal to the best.


----------



## prosunza

Really want to choose custom frequency just like zowie btw im using 1000hz when compare to the 500hz it seems like 1000hz has more responsive than 500hz

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MasterBash

Ya, I wish 1khz was available. I may or not buy this mouse because of that... I mean, at that price point, it might as well be an option.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> It's absolutely unrelated.


how is it not? I had a 16ms difference between my g502 and zowie ec2 which is almost exactly what the real difference is. "I've found it a useful as a quick and dirty indicator of click latency" thats really what it is


----------



## Melan

Then tell me how I get similar results with 303 and FK1.


----------



## Crizzl

Maybe you've got a newer FK1 with _improved_ click latency so that the difference is not quite as drastic?


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crizzl*
> 
> Maybe you've got a newer FK1 with _improved_ click latency so that the difference is not quite as drastic?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Then tell me how I get similar results with 303 and FK1.


maybe you have a new fk1 like Crizzl said? their latencies are like 5ms apart now apparently. are you also doing more than 1 try? because I honestly don't see how you can be so inconsistent with clicking that something like 10 tries with both mice would give you results that made absolutely no sense


----------



## Melan

I got my FK1 when it was first released. I had to remove upper shell to click normally though.


----------



## casualgamer

Getting tired of waiting lol...
Fk2 (with improved latency), FM 2015 refresh, or G303? I use a palm/fingertip hybrid grip and have 18.5 - 19cm hands


----------



## lntricate

Mouse just stopped working completely.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lntricate*
> 
> Mouse just stopped working completely.


Hit up support.


----------



## lntricate

I did, I've been stuck with a faulty mouse (loose side button) twice now even with the new replacement, I opt to wait for the latest version but if its ambidextrous, (buttons on 2 side) i don't think i'd want it.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lntricate*
> 
> I did, I've been stuck with a faulty mouse (loose side button) twice now even with the new replacement, I opt to wait for the latest version but if its ambidextrous, (buttons on 2 side) i don't think i'd want it.


the newest coming out in 2 weeks is a refresh of the previous version, there is no ETA on the ambi version.
it was recommended by FM Jude (in this thread) to wait for the refresh if you like that shape, I believe the build quality is supposed to be much better and the sensor is supposed to be stable. I'm also waiting to get one.


----------



## lntricate

Yeap, hopefully. That's what I opt to wait for but because unit was already faulty on receive (ordered from amazon, re-shipped twice due to faulty unit), they told me to keep this mouse and they'll send me a new unit when the refresh is out. Oh, i thought the new version would be ambidextrous, the mouse is definitely of top notch in terms of performance quality however the quality control is absolutely terrible if I were to be frank.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Why wouldn't you want an ambi?


----------



## lntricate

I don't like having my last and fourth finger resting on buttons as I tend to "grip" harder as i get excited =P.


----------



## detto87

Then don't put them on buttons?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Then don't put them on buttons?


He means side buttons on the right side being under the fingers. I have that problem with the Kana where the mild force of my palm when moving it activates the right side button at times.
Never had that problem with FK or AM though, so with good placement it's all fine.


----------



## lntricate

^ What he said.

My mouse just died and FM said they'll send me a new one next week, so out of a mice atm, might look into joining the Zowie club.


----------



## uNfEiL

Where can i buy it? Its unavailable on amazon. Wasnt it supposed to be out in early 2015?


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Where can i buy it? Its unavailable on amazon. Wasnt it supposed to be out in early 2015?


updated version coming most likely in 3 days


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> updated version coming most likely in 3 days


memorial day weekend comming up.

i think not.


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> updated version coming most likely in 3 days


Updated in which sense?


----------



## Skyval

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *H00NIGAN*
> 
> I emailed FM techs yesterday and got this message today. I was asking about the ambidexterous shape and availability.
> 
> "I cannot currently speak to any news on an ambidextrous mouse. That being said, the new model will ship on roughly May 24th exclusively with Amazon.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support"


They did say "roughly".

@uNfEiL
Production moved to another factory they should have more control over, so the quality should be better and more consistent
Some minor shell changes (mostly aesthetic, it has their own logo embossed now instead of the OEM company on the bottom/under stickers)
Redesigned side buttons (were a significant complaint)
Ships with new firmware
And I think they said they were changing some wiring or something.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skyval*
> 
> They did say "roughly".
> 
> @uNfEiL
> Production moved to another factory they should have more control over, so the quality should be better and more consistent
> Some minor shell changes (mostly aesthetic, it has their own logo embossed now instead of the OEM company on the bottom/under stickers)
> Redesigned side buttons (were a significant complaint)
> Ships with new firmware
> And I think they said they were changing some wiring or something.


Side buttons aren't changing until 2016. There are pcb improvements , sensor improvements, shell improvements with the quality and finish, bottom shell changes, electrical changes, srom, etc

Should be available in the next couple days.

Kind regards
Jude


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Side buttons aren't changing until 2016. There are pcb improvements , sensor improvements, shell improvements with the quality and finish, bottom shell changes, electrical changes, srom, etc
> 
> Should be available in the next couple days.
> 
> Kind regards
> Jude


*"pcb improvements , sensor improvements, shell improvements with the quality and finish, bottom shell changes, electrical changes, srom, etc"* - all of that in the next couple days or also in 2016 like side buttons?


----------



## Skyval

Ah, thanks so much for the clarification, Jude. Its so nice actually having questions answered. A bit disappointed about the side buttons, but I understand that these things can take time. I can't wait for more news about future models, the possibility for 1000Hz, etc.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> *"pcb improvements , sensor improvements, shell improvements with the quality and finish, bottom shell changes, electrical changes, srom, etc"* - all of that in the next couple days or also in 2016 like side buttons?


Hello,

Yes all these things will be in the summer edition that releases in a few days. I wish I had my original post to paste since it was in more detail. The ambi model comes in 2016 along with the classic shape with new side buttons.

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Yes all these things will be in the summer edition that releases in a few days. I wish I had my original post to paste since it was in more detail. The ambi model comes in 2016 along with the classic shape with new side buttons.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


So, this would only be available on US Amazon for the NA market?
Also, will the right side still be glossy? I hope it'd will be matte or rubberized.







But I guess if it wasn't planned in the first place, then it's going to remain the same.

Thanks for the announcement.


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Yes all these things will be in the summer edition that releases in a few days. I wish I had my original post to paste since it was in more detail. The ambi model comes in 2016 along with the classic shape with new side buttons.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


Is there still going to be a five-finger ergonomic shape (à la Mionix Naos) in 2016 as you had previously mentioned?


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Yes all these things will be in the summer edition that releases in a few days. I wish I had my original post to paste since it was in more detail. The ambi model comes in 2016 along with the classic shape with new side buttons.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


So owners of the original will be getting this, right?


----------



## Swim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> So owners of the original will be getting this, right?


I emailed them regarding this, --

Code:



Code:


Unfortunately we cannot offer that transaction at this time. I do wish I could be of more assistance.

Thanks,
FinalMouse Support


----------



## Derp

You made a purchase and after testing the mouse you could have returned it for a refund. If you kept that specific mouse then you shouldn't expect to get a new revision for free.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> So owners of the original will be getting this, right?


If you have issues with your mouse they will take care of you with the revised product.


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Swim*
> 
> I emailed them regarding this, --
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Unfortunately we cannot offer that transaction at this time. I do wish I could be of more assistance.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support


Interesting.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> If you have issues with your mouse they will take care of you with the revised product.


That's what I thought and was told a few months ago by FM Support. I guess we'll see in a bit.


----------



## nthoang1293

I reported problems with my Finalmouse to support and they agreed to ship me the revised version. Excited to receive it








I hope the side buttons will be of better quality at least ?


----------



## tramas

Summer edition will be sold on Amazon US for mostly NA clients but, what about EU customers? Any EU reseller? I don't want to pay 30$ on shipping/customs


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tramas*
> 
> Summer edition will be sold on Amazon US for mostly NA clients but, what about EU customers? Any EU reseller? I don't want to pay 30$ on shipping/customs


Hello,

European customers will be able to purchase from Amazon.co.uk Once the retailers are stocked the website will automatically direct European visitors to Amazon Europe.

At this moment I do believe that Amazon Europe will be delayed a couple days longer than the US. But once that is ready EU customers will get cheaper shipping without any extra customs fees .

-Jude


----------



## tramas

Thank you very much for the quick answer


----------



## ChinaRep

Anybody know when the revised FMs will start showing up at people's doors in the US? I bricked my original FM trying to update the firmware, yes I followed the official instructions I was emailed, and I'm getting pretty tired of using my modded g502.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> European customers will be able to purchase from Amazon.co.uk Once the retailers are stocked the website will automatically direct European visitors to Amazon Europe.
> 
> At this moment I do believe that Amazon Europe will be delayed a couple days longer than the US. But once that is ready EU customers will get cheaper shipping without any extra customs fees .
> 
> -Jude


Good for the yanks and the europeans, but what about the rest of the WORLD







?


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> European customers will be able to purchase from Amazon.co.uk Once the retailers are stocked the website will automatically direct European visitors to Amazon Europe.
> 
> At this moment I do believe that Amazon Europe will be delayed a couple days longer than the US. But once that is ready EU customers will get cheaper shipping without any extra customs fees .
> 
> -Jude


Are you guys considering to sell the FM directly on the website? It kinda sucks that I have to pay 20+ dollars in my currency just for shipping to Southeast Asia.


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> Are you guys considering to sell the FM directly on the website? It kinda sucks that I have to pay 20+ dollars in my currency just for shipping to Southeast Asia.


SEA dont usually get that privilege man. I'm from Vietnam and I have to ship it to a shipping service then pay about 15$ to have it shipped to my country







no big deal because if it is sold in our region the price is even higher, retailers here sell the Zowie mouses for 1.5 the price


----------



## MasterBash

So its coming out this week?

Hopefully they add 1000hz one day...I may or may not buy it bc of this.


----------



## Audio

So is this summer edition going to be marketed as "summer edition" or is it just going to be another finalmouse? is this finalmouse 2015 on amazon the summer edition?


----------



## muwaji

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> So its coming out this week?
> 
> Hopefully they add 1000hz one day...I may or may not buy it bc of this.


Ya that's what they say, however it feels like their estimations often are taken out of thin air, so i wouldn't say it's100% reliable.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Did they mention the price of this anywhere? I'm very interested in the new version but dropping close to $70 would be a pain.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Did they mention the price of this anywhere? I'm very interested in the new version but dropping close to $70 would be a pain.


Bet my bottom dollar the price will be $67 still. Idk about anyone else but that i doubt will change.

No price changes were mentioned either.


----------



## rmp459

Looks like it is up on amazon for the US now.

Link


----------



## MasterBash

I know the previous one was out of stock, but is that *really* the summer edition?

I think I will wait for a few reviews before ordering. Maybe even 1000hz. I am from Canada so I hope I wont get killed with brokerage fees.

Also, according to the amazon image, the mousewheel lights up, is that removable? I am not into led stuff, at all.


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> I know the previous one was out of stock, but is that *really* the summer edition?
> 
> I think I will wait for a few reviews before ordering. Maybe even 1000hz. I am from Canada so I hope I wont get killed with brokerage fees.
> 
> Also, according to the amazon image, the mousewheel lights up, is that removable? I am not into led stuff, at all.


No idea on the scroll wheel, but the mouse has been unavailable on amazon for weeks.
The FM rep said that the new model would be up for sale ~24th. So I assume this is the new model.

@FinalmouseJude Is there a way we can verify the new edition via Serial Number or anything on the mouse itself ?


----------



## moon114

I just ordered one. I'll post what I get. If there is a way to tell by serial or what not, let me know.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> I know the previous one was out of stock, but is that *really* the summer edition?
> 
> I think I will wait for a few reviews before ordering. Maybe even 1000hz. I am from Canada so I hope I wont get killed with brokerage fees.
> 
> Also, according to the amazon image, the mousewheel lights up, is that removable? I am not into led stuff, at all.


The LED is not bothersome like some others can be.


----------



## H00NIGAN

Yeah they are in stock at Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MX8QSLW/ref=s9_simh_gw_p147_d3_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=1H5F68PSAQJQ6GJ2JPFD&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2079475242&pf_rd_i=desktop
$67.12 +Free shipping
weird price.


----------



## mtzgr

If this thing was $50 I might try it.


----------



## Derp

I didn't realize there were so many Amazon verified purchases that had the sensor die within a few months. I have never had a mouse sensor die on me.


----------



## Vantavia

"We are glad to announce that the Finalmouse is back in stock for North American customers ! The much anticipated summer update includes performance and manufacturing improvement to satisfy the needs of the most demanding gamers. European customers should expect availability in a couple more days ! RMA tickets awaiting the summer version will be updated via email"



Spoiler: Q&A with support



Vantavia
When will the finalmouse 2015 summer edition be on amazon uk?

Sean Pennington
In roughly 3-4 weeks time!
days***

Vantavia
my blood was just about to boil lol

Sean Pennington
Haha sorry about that

Vantavia
Any confirmed button latency tests?
and 1000hz confirmation?

Sean Pennington
500hz









Vantavia
What is the button latency like compared to say, logitech/A4tech? the current leaders
http://cdn.overclock.net/3/36/3694e0c9_button_latency_testing_overall_150324.png

Sean Pennington
The click registration on the FinalMouse has been proved to be one of the highest. comparing in the top 1% of all mice

Vantavia
Could I see a comparison or some kind of well, evidence or hard figures?

Sean Pennington
Provide your email and I will try and get that information to you
IF you would like

Vantavia
(REMOVED FOR OBVIOUS REASONS)

Sean Pennington
Great! Thank you. I will get back to you on that

Vantavia
Just a heads up, a lot of people specifically WANT 1000hz and while I prefer consistency and 500hz is clearly enough for ME, there are people who won't purchase purely based on that fact
so I'd advise a solid write up (for them) addressing why 1000hz is flawed or unjustifiable or literally just the option to use it
I've been following the OCN forums and I post on them myself and this is a reocurring theme

Sean Pennington
Of course! We understand







that you for your input!

Vantavia
What is the predicted price for the finalmouse + shipping on amazon UK?

Sean Pennington
The FM will be avail on Amazon.UK in roughly 2-3 days!

Vantavia
I was just wondering if I could get a price since exchange rates are... questionable at best.
Sean Pennington
Roughly 20USD I believe

Vantavia
I presume you mean GBP?
it's like 68USD on amazon.com lol

Sean Pennington
oh my apologies. the FM will be listed at 57 Pounds. I am not certain about the shipping rates. They FM will be stored in the UK though.

Vantavia
£57?

Sean Pennington
yes

Vantavia
what the heck
that's unreal :c

Sean Pennington
Please don't quote me on that as that is just an estimate. They aren't certain at this time about the price point.
But I believe it has to do with VAT taxes and import taxes.

Vantavia
I'm all for paying for paying for a good product but over £50 is extortionate and I hope your team bares that in mind

Sean Pennington
I'll be sure to pass this along!

Vantavia
that's more expensive than zowies brand new line, the G502, G402, even the deathadder is £43
Thanks for your help anyways, I just hope I'll literally be able to afford it http://prntscr.com/79r25w

Sean Pennington
Have a phenomenal day!


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I didn't realize there were so many Amazon verified purchases that had the sensor die within a few months. I have never had a mouse sensor die on me.


Due to how the PCB was designed and fabricated originally in the previous factory there were known instances where sensor "meltdown" due to high current could occur. This is already taken care of with the new batch like I mentioned in my update thread. And this is of course covered by the 3 year warranty.

And yes to confirm, the summer edition is now available on Amazon US. Europe will be available in the next few days. When it does launch in Europe European customers will be directed to the appropriate retailer automatically from the finalmouse website.

Also for those in other countries outside of North America and Europe, we are currently in the process of expanding the logistics and distribution network. However I do not have any ETA for you at the moment unfortunately.

Kind Regards,
Jude

PS. Just learned the new edition comes with Finalmouse stickers to decorate your expensive computers and laptops with. Sticker away!


----------



## bigjw

does the new finalmouse have software for rebinding buttons?


----------



## qsxcv

why still 500hz???


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> why still 500hz???


Hello,

We have found 500hz is more stable not only with a variety of bus's and systems but the actual sensor algorithms and machine code we utilize in the srom still perform better and more consistently at 500hz.

These stability issues you will never be able to find at home. We use a Cartesian style 2 axis robot to do circle tests that we gauge a lot of our performance metrics on.

On top of this 8/10 cs go pros we worked with preferred the feeling of 500hz over 1k in a blind test. This is because at higher hz and framerates 1k hz can feel more slippery.

These are the main reasons. Obviously it's not hard to simply change the firmware register fields and make the mouse 1000hz but our entire brand philosophy revolves around making sure the mouse comes preequipped exactly how we believe it should be configured for esports/fps use.

Hope that answers the question sufficiently since we have been getting this a lot recently.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We have found 500hz is more stable not only with a variety of bus's and systems but the actual sensor algorithms and machine code we utilize in the srom still perform better and more consistently at 500hz.
> 
> These stability issues you will never be able to find at home. We use a Cartesian style 2 axis robot to do circle tests that we gauge a lot of our performance metrics on.
> 
> On top of this 8/10 cs go pros we worked with preferred the feeling of 500hz over 1k in a blind test. This is because at higher hz and framerates 1k hz can feel more slippery.
> 
> These are the main reasons. Obviously it's not hard to simply change the firmware register fields and make the mouse 1000hz but our entire brand philosophy revolves around making sure the mouse comes preequipped exactly how we believe it should be configured for esports/fps use.
> 
> Hope that answers the question sufficiently since we have been getting this a lot recently.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


So ship the mouse with 500Hz and make it very clear that you recommend 500Hz but there should definitely be a way to change the polling rate up to 1000Hz for those who want it.


----------



## woll3

> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> So ship the mouse with 500Hz and make it very clear that you recommend 500Hz but there should definitely be a way to change the polling rate up to 1000Hz for those who want it.


But that´s not pro.


----------



## espgodson

hmm so i think mine is finally noticeably doing the dpi fluxuations ._.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We have found 500hz is more stable not only with a variety of bus's and systems but the actual sensor algorithms and machine code we utilize in the srom still perform better and more consistently at 500hz.
> 
> These stability issues you will never be able to find at home. We use a Cartesian style 2 axis robot to do circle tests that we gauge a lot of our performance metrics on.
> 
> On top of this 8/10 cs go pros we worked with preferred the feeling of 500hz over 1k in a blind test. This is because at higher hz and framerates 1k hz can feel more slippery.
> 
> These are the main reasons. Obviously it's not hard to simply change the firmware register fields and make the mouse 1000hz but our entire brand philosophy revolves around making sure the mouse comes preequipped exactly how we believe it should be configured for esports/fps use.
> 
> Hope that answers the question sufficiently since we have been getting this a lot recently.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


You should take in consideration that those who are on pro -level at the moment in fps -games, have had like 10+ years of practice behind them and because years ago there were no reliable 1000hz mice available, they had to get used to lower report -rates.. When being adapted to something it always feels better unless the advantage is huge.. They can prefer the 500hz only because of being used to it, that doesn't make it better.. The "slippery" feeling comes when your muscle memory has some prediction and when there is no need for that prediction, you need to make new adaption and before you do, it feels wrong.. 1k hz would be better but the difference is more or less marginal and there are more important things to fix first..


----------



## Versus2190

Can't find any information about the size, what height, width, length is it?
I also miss the 1000 hz rate


----------



## benllok

In short: it's been designed to operate appropriately at 500hz, if you want higher polling rate, overclock it yourself just like any other mouse.

I don't understand why people can't realize what is enough. I see lots of companies with their marketing nonsense trying to sell us the idea that more is better.. 2000hz polling rate, ultra high dpi, billions LED colours, LCD screens under the mouse, bunch of buttons, needless functions built in, etc. Yet a small company trying to do the correct thing comes with a simple solution focusing on what really matters like sensor consistency and raw feeling and people just goes emo.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> actual sensor algorithms and machine code we utilize in the srom still perform better and more consistently at 500hz


I suspect other manufacturers using the same sensor might be conscious of this but they will never tell that because they want easy sales.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> In short: it's been designed to operate appropriately at 500hz, if you want higher polling rate, overclock it yourself just like any other mouse.


From my testing the FM is not able to be OC'd in any way. With my mobo I can overclock an IME 3.0 on Win8.1, but not the FM (or G100s).


----------



## EvenR

I couldn't care less for 1000 hz. I've played with it for years on my deathadder, but recently compared 500 to 1000 and now play at 500 as it feels more accurate. I don't believe most mice operate well at 1000hz, just like most mice don't work well at high dpi's. It's all marketing hogwash. Get over it.

I really appreciate a company that actually focuses on what matters. I don't get a mouse to call up my friends and say it has 2000hz or 30.000 dpi. Even if you could get the final mouse to work stable at 1000hz it wouldn't be noticeable in game to most and wouldn't get you more frags. It simply doesn't matter.

Looking forward to the europe launch and the 2016 version for better grips and side-buttons.


----------



## mtzgr

Just sounds like spin to me.


----------



## Audio

Just ordered my finalmouse.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> You should take in consideration that those who are on pro -level at the moment in fps -games, have had like 10+ years of practice behind them and because years ago there were no reliable 1000hz mice available, they had to get used to lower report -rates.. When being adapted to something it always feels better unless the advantage is huge.. They can prefer the 500hz only because of being used to it, that doesn't make it better.. The "slippery" feeling comes when your muscle memory has some prediction and when there is no need for that prediction, you need to make new adaption and before you do, it feels wrong.. 1k hz would be better but the difference is more or less marginal and there are more important things to fix first..


Lol that's a load of crap sorry. A lot of the top pros make changes to their set up all the time. So playing 500hz "just because their used to it" is baloney. 500hz feels better period, if you don't notice it then just stick to your 1000hz is better sheeple theory.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We have found 500hz is more stable not only with a variety of bus's and systems


There exist systems for which both 1000hz and 500hz have stable polling periods with less than 10us jitter. e.g. http://www.overclock.net/t/1550666/usb-polling-precision

Quote:


> but the actual sensor algorithms and machine code we utilize in the srom still perform better and more consistently at 500hz.


Do you know specifically why? I'd imagine that the frame-capturing process for the sensor occurs independently from how often the motion registers are read...
Quote:


> These stability issues you will never be able to find at home. We use a Cartesian style 2 axis robot to do circle tests that we gauge a lot of our performance metrics on.


Quote:


> On top of this 8/10 cs go pros we worked with preferred the feeling of 500hz over 1k in a blind test. This is because at higher hz and framerates 1k hz can feel more slippery.
> 
> These are the main reasons. Obviously it's not hard to simply change the firmware register fields and make the mouse 1000hz but our entire brand philosophy revolves around making sure the mouse comes preequipped exactly how we believe it should be configured for esports/fps use.
> 
> Hope that answers the question sufficiently since we have been getting this a lot recently.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


so what about the 2/10 players who prefer 1000hz? I'm sure if you ask 100 pro csgo players, more than 80% would prefer 400/800 dpi, so what's the point of 1600 and 3200dpi?

I'd imagine that it would not be difficult to add the ability to select 500/1000hz using something similar to zowie's system (plug in while clicking a button to select 500/1000hz). Maybe this can be implemented with just a firmware change. It's undeniable that for a system/mouse combination that handles 1000hz properly, 1000hz is better than 500hz in certain ways (smoothness of panning in 3d, cursor microstutter in 2d). Given that for your mouse using 500hz brings certain other performance benefits, both options are compromises and imo the final user should decide which to use


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Audio*
> 
> Just ordered my finalmouse.
> Lol that's a load of crap sorry. A lot of the top pros make changes to their set up all the time. So playing 500hz "just because their used to it" is baloney. 500hz feels better period, if you don't notice it then just stick to your 1000hz is better sheeple theory.


You cant say 500hz feels better period because it depends on a mouse if the 1khz works properly or not.. Lot of pros are changing to 1000hz as far as csgo scene goes, especially newcomers in a pro scene.. it is more like 50/50 now..


----------



## STRATEGY

well i think i have to pass this caz it stucks at 500hz ..


----------



## Vantavia

Just because 1000hz is more common now, it doesn't mean it's necessarily better. All I'm seeing are poorly written posts by people who have been sold an ideology by other companies yet for some reason want to purchase a mouse that goes against that. I still think that 1000hz should be available if the performance is adequate but I really doubt that people who can't even type fluently and proof read their messages are superhumans that need 1000hz to keep up with their agile mind







.

For instance, the G9x had a garbage sensor but some of the best players use(d) it because of it's shape and still destroyed people who had a better (optical) sensor.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Due to how the PCB was designed and fabricated originally in the previous factory there were known instances where sensor "meltdown" due to high current could occur. This is already taken care of with the new batch like I mentioned in my update thread. And this is of course covered by the 3 year warranty.
> 
> And yes to confirm, the summer edition is now available on Amazon US. Europe will be available in the next few days. When it does launch in Europe European customers will be directed to the appropriate retailer automatically from the finalmouse website.
> 
> Also for those in other countries outside of North America and Europe, we are currently in the process of expanding the logistics and distribution network. However I do not have any ETA for you at the moment unfortunately.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude
> 
> PS. Just learned the new edition comes with Finalmouse stickers to decorate your expensive computers and laptops with. Sticker away!


ordering one! finally.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I found that c-states being on in the BIOS, and windows power plan being on balanced or power saving, were the two main factors that were affecting my polling rate stability and even xvelocity graphs. Though I think stepping on + balanced power plan, might give the most accurate (_rather than all looking "perfect"_) xvelocity results _(since 3.0's xvelocity graphs are mostly unaffected by the changes, and FM users with perfect looking xvelocity graphs were still feeling the inconsistency issues in game)_.

I'd always used 500hz on my 3.0 because 1000hz wasn't stable. But after those two tweaks it's stable. I haven't had the chance to test the ingame affect though. But it's possible the 8/10 pros were being affected by those settings.


----------



## uNfEiL

I wonder who's paying for shipping when I RMA it? Full shipping is on me or do they refund it if they admit their fault? Cuz there were plenty of defective FMs recently and there may be a chance I get one too.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I found that c-states being on in the BIOS, and windows power plan being on balanced or power saving, were the two main factors that were affecting my polling rate stability and even xvelocity graphs. Though I think stepping on + balanced power plan, might give the most accurate (_rather than all looking "perfect"_) xvelocity results _(since 3.0's xvelocity graphs are mostly unaffected by the changes, and FM users with perfect looking xvelocity graphs were still feeling the inconsistency issues in game)_.
> 
> I'd always used 500hz on my 3.0 because 1000hz wasn't stable. But after those two tweaks it's stable. I haven't had the chance to test the ingame affect though. But it's possible the 8/10 pros were being affected by those settings.


note that it should be hard or impossible to notice the difference in cs1.6 because fps is capped to 100 so there's no microstutter related to the number of usb polling periods per frame (always 5 usb polls per frame for 500hz, and 10 usb polls per frame for 1000hz)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

But the difference from 125hz to 500hz in 1.6 is very obvious?


----------



## Tyler10274

Just got the summer edition about 10 minutes ago, trying it out. The top coating feels better but other than that no real differences I can tell right at this very moment as I've just gotten it . Going to run it through some shooters see how it performs.

Some Graphs and Enotus, all on Puretrak Talent.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



400 DPI


800DPI


1600DPI


3200DPI


Enotus


----------



## qsxcv

could you do a plot with slower acceleration at 3200dpi
like this:


----------



## Tyler10274

Sure Here's what I got at 3200 slow acceleration most consistently


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> But the difference from 125hz to 500hz in 1.6 is very obvious?


Only extremely obvious yeah, you can actually see and feel the mouse going in small "steps" when you go around a corner and look at it

think i wrote about this back when Zowie released the EC-1 evo?


----------



## blackmesatech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We have found 500hz is more stable not only with a variety of bus's and systems but the actual sensor algorithms and machine code we utilize in the srom still perform better and more consistently at 500hz.
> 
> These stability issues you will never be able to find at home. We use a Cartesian style 2 axis robot to do circle tests that we gauge a lot of our performance metrics on.
> 
> _On top of this 8/10 cs go pros we worked with preferred the feeling of 500hz over 1k in a blind test. This is because at higher hz and framerates 1k hz can feel more slippery._


Thanks for posting that on here Jude, the reactions are priceless.


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tyler10274*
> 
> Just got the summer edition about 10 minutes ago, trying it out. The top coating feels better but other than that no real differences I can tell right at this very moment as I've just gotten it . Going to run it through some shooters see how it performs.
> 
> Some Graphs and Enotus, all on Puretrak Talent.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 400 DPI
> 
> 
> 800DPI
> 
> 
> 1600DPI
> 
> 
> 3200DPI
> 
> 
> Enotus


Thanks for sharing that info mate. Lets see how it performs for the rest


----------



## MasterBash

Its not really about 1000hz being better than 500hz. Its the fact that we are paying the same price as the G303 with half the features. We do not even have the option to switch to 1000hz while paying an exorbitant price for the mouse. The thing is, adding 1000hz doesnt increase the weight of the mouse, it doesnt change its shape, it doesnt make buttons click slower, it doesnt degrade 500hz... You give an option to people who wish to use the 1000hz. It gives people an option is the point. To put it simple, this mouse offers very little for the price someone pays.


----------



## EvenR

It offers the most light weight and accurate mouse for fps gaming you can find. The rest is bells and whistles.


----------



## MasterBash

Accurate is subjective in this case. I bet you notice no difference between this and the g303/g502.

It may be very light, but its not much lighter than some other mice. The lack of features is probably not worth it for some people, especially at that price. Like I said, it offers very little. People who love this very specific weight, shape, 500hz and "sensor improvements" will buy this... In other words, very few people with those exact preferences.

Just by adding 1000hz, you get more potential buyers who like the weight, shape, "sensor improvements" but also want to use 1000hz over 500hz.


----------



## springrolls

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> It offers the most light weight and accurate mouse for fps gaming you can find. The rest is bells and whistles.


bells and whistles would be something more like rgb lighting. There is literally no reason (at least I haven't heard of one yet) to at least _offer_ the consumer the ability to choose 1000 hz. Nobody has suggested that it should be default or even recommended, people just want it as an option.


----------



## EvenR

Jude already stated that 1000hz is not optimal and stable on the fm and that it's not part of their philosophy to include it just because... I don't see the point in having it as an option if it's not in any way better.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> For instance, the G9x had a garbage sensor but some of the best players use(d) it because of it's shape and still destroyed people who had a better (optical) sensor.


FPS players?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> note that it should be hard or impossible to notice the difference in cs1.6 because fps is capped to 100 so there's no microstutter related to the number of usb polling periods per frame (always 5 usb polls per frame for 500hz, and 10 usb polls per frame for 1000hz)


Raw input?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> But the difference from 125hz to 500hz in 1.6 is very obvious?


Maybe.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> Jude already stated that 1000hz *is not optimal* and stable on the fm and that it's not part of their philosophy to include it just because... I don't see the point in having it as an option if it's not in any way better.


Then why use the 3310 over the 3988?


----------



## milkbreak

I received mine today and the sensor/shell feels amazing but it doesn't matter because mouse 1 and mouse 2 will trigger if I set the mouse down with any force at all. Current sensitivity is 39.1cm/360 which means I'm setting the mouse down regularly and the button issue completely ruins the experience. I emailed support to see if this is normal or if there's any kind of possible fix... I really hope I don't have to return it because everything else about the mouse feels right.


----------



## EvenR

Because it's better... Especially the implementation fm has


----------



## Tyler10274

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *milkbreak*
> 
> I received mine today and the sensor/shell feels amazing but it doesn't matter because mouse 1 and mouse 2 will trigger if I set the mouse down with any force at all. Current sensitivity is 39.1cm/360 which means I'm setting the mouse down regularly and the button issue completely ruins the experience. I emailed support to see if this is normal or if there's any kind of possible fix... I really hope I don't have to return it because everything else about the mouse feels right.


Getting the trigger when set down too unfortunately, shame cause everything else feels good and responsive, but the buttons triggering when it's not set down as light as a feather is incredibly frustrating. It may be worse than my Deathadders misclicky triggers.

Shifting it so you put the weight on the back of the mouse when setting it down works pretty well to fix the issue, but it shouldn't be an issue in the first place. Any weight setting it down even or towards the front triggers the buttons really, really frequently.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tyler10274*
> 
> Getting the trigger when set down too unfortunately, shame cause everything else feels good and responsive, but the buttons triggering when it's not set down as light as a feather is incredibly frustrating. It may be worse than my Deathadders misclicky triggers.


I would email support if the clicks are that sensitive as this isn't something we are seeing in this batch. Could be a carton of omrons that are too light.

Just explain to them that the buttons are abnormally sensitive and you should get an RMA.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I would email support if the clicks are that sensitive as this isn't something we are seeing in this batch. Could be a carton of omrons that are too light.
> 
> Just explain to them that the buttons are abnormally sensitive and you should get an RMA.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


When should I expect the notification for the shipping of my replacement unit? I have it shipped to an agent who will ship it to my country so kinda need some sort of tracking information


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> But the difference from 125hz to 500hz in 1.6 is very obvious?


yes


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> When should I expect the notification for the shipping of my replacement unit? I have it shipped to an agent who will ship it to my country so kinda need some sort of tracking information


Hey Nthoang

For questions like these I really advise you to contact our support team. Their job is to take care of these sort of situations and they generally do a very good job and will make sure you are taken care of.

And this really goes for everyone, don't be afraid to contact support. We have a very knowledgable group of guys in house that are part of that department.

Anyways I hope everyone begins to enjoy the Summer Edition. The sensor performance , in my humble opinion , is even better than before. And if you happen to buy two go ahead and take one apart and check out our new pcb's







I will be going to work on things for 2016 but will definitely tune into the community as much as I can.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tyler10274*
> 
> Sure Here's what I got at 3200 slow acceleration most consistently
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


thanks

how stable is your polling?

@finalmousejude:

can you explain this:








why do the deviations from the ideal line always look like *-....*-....*-.....

it's exactly what i saw in the ninox aurora:









and when i set the aurora to 1000hz, those spikes correspond to dropped usb frames (unrelated to the computer)
maybe the finalmouse has the same issue and that's why you guys don't want 1000hz


----------



## Tyler10274

Solid 500hz


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I will be going to work on things for 2016 but will definitely tune into the community as much as I can.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Hey Jude, how about supplying your FinalMouse during 2016 to other places beside USA and Europe







?


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Good for the yanks and the europeans, but what about the rest of the WORLD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Hey Jude, how about supplying your FinalMouse during 2016 to other places beside USA and Europe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


Or how about avoiding this overpriced piece of plastic?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> thanks
> 
> how stable is your polling?
> 
> @finalmousejude:
> 
> can you explain this:
> 
> why do the deviations from the ideal line always look like *-....*-....*-.....
> 
> it's exactly what i saw in the ninox aurora:
> 
> and when i set the aurora to 1000hz, those spikes correspond to dropped usb frames (unrelated to the computer)
> maybe the finalmouse has the same issue and that's why you guys don't want 1000hz


Of course some companies don't want to have 1000Hz because their MCU or coding isn't good at it.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> Or how about avoiding this overpriced piece of plastic?


Oh you exitone, why so much angst over anyone choosing this mouse?

Just want to see what all the fanfare is about and usually you need to actually have it in your hands and plugged into your PC, to see what all the commotion is about.

Plus I hate not being able to buy something that every gawd given american and euro person can now buy easily without any fuss.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Of course some companies don't want to have 1000Hz because their MCU or coding isn't good at it.


Not to mention that Sensor clock is 2khz, i dont see the problem there.


----------



## MasterBash

Well... Thats definitely not a good thing.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Oh you exitone, why so much angst over anyone choosing this mouse?
> 
> Just want to see what all the fanfare is about and usually you need to actually have it in your hands and plugged into your PC, to see what all the commotion is about.
> 
> Plus I hate not being able to buy something that every gawd given american and euro person can now buy easily without any fuss.


Well I don't care how anyone chooses to spend their money but it's basically $91+shipping which is just stupid IMO.


----------



## H00NIGAN

Found this post (maybe the post by FinalJude that was removed?) that has a lot of good information about the new summer release and the plans that are in work at the moment. FinalJude describes what they are thinking in the near future and some insight on the improved facilities and what that means to consumers.
Give it a read if you haven't already, it has prompted me to go ahead and make the purchase so it may convince someone else who is on the fence. My daily driver is an IntelliMouse Explorer 3.0, and as good as the sensor feels the electrical tape, overclocking, mouse feet, and just overall cheapness of the mouse has had me anticipating a company like FM to show up and take me away from all that.

I must say I want these guys to succeed and become the leaders in this area. Competition is always good and I think they are taking the right angle with their product.

POST LINK: http://hardware.forumsee.com/a/m/s/p12-31634-0839990--2015-summer-version-and-2016-info-updates-from-fmjude.html

Also before you guys judge me based on my mouse pad of choice, it was given to me in a pinch and I am awaiting my Artisan Hien Mid to arrive.
That X Y texture would of been so awesome when I was still rocking QIII


Enjoy and have a great day!


----------



## ramraze

Still no European launch yet, I guess ?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> Accurate is subjective in this case. I bet you notice no difference between this and the g303/g502.
> 
> It may be very light, but its not much lighter than some other mice. The lack of features is probably not worth it for some people, especially at that price. Like I said, it offers very little. People who love this very specific weight, shape, 500hz and "sensor improvements" will buy this... In other words, very few people with those exact preferences.
> 
> Just by adding 1000hz, you get more potential buyers who like the weight, shape, "sensor improvements" but also want to use 1000hz over 500hz.


Similar issue to high DPI. High DPI degrades performance, but people like Logitech keep adding more and more because uninformed people want it.

The fact that you're demanding 1000hz even after he said it's detrimental to performance is quite curious.

If they implement a feature that makes sensor performance worse, it will increase bad reviews and degrade public perception of their brand.

And the difference between the 3366 and the FM is very obvious to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tyler10274*
> 
> Just got the summer edition about 10 minutes ago, trying it out. The top coating feels better but other than that no real differences I can tell right at this very moment as I've just gotten it . Going to run it through some shooters see how it performs.
> 
> Some Graphs and Enotus, all on Puretrak Talent.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 400 DPI
> 
> 
> 800DPI
> 
> 
> 1600DPI
> 
> 
> 3200DPI
> 
> 
> Enotus


I find xvelocity graphs to be more helpful than xcount.


----------



## Deadeye

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hey Nthoang
> 
> For questions like these I really advise you to contact our support team. Their job is to take care of these sort of situations and they generally do a very good job and will make sure you are taken care of.
> 
> And this really goes for everyone, don't be afraid to contact support. We have a very knowledgable group of guys in house that are part of that department.
> 
> Anyways I hope everyone begins to enjoy the Summer Edition. The sensor performance , in my humble opinion , is even better than before. And if you happen to buy two go ahead and take one apart and check out our new pcb's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will be going to work on things for 2016 but will definitely tune into the community as much as I can.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Hello Jude,

About support team at FM, i'm personally disappointed in them, you did mention that they took care of their customers? When i got my mouse i had some issues, one of them was that the shel part was sticking out and was scratching my mouse pad, i did email them i believe it was via FM website but no responce, i believe i emailed twice but cant be sure now, so i ended up with Amazon to return my item.

This is just my experience with FM


----------



## ronal

I'm still baffled by the price of this mouse. I personally think $49.99 would of been a better price point.


----------



## SmashTV

1000hz isn't detrimental to performance. They just don't want to pay the factory in China more.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> 1000hz isn't detrimental to performance. They just don't want to pay the factory in China more.


Or upgrade their MCU.


----------



## kr0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> I'm still baffled by the price of this mouse. I personally think $49.99 would of been a better price point.


Small company with a 3 year warrenty. They could have focused more on QC and reduced warranty and price, but from the community's praise on their support service, I'm okay with paying the additional fee to support a company on the right track.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Not to mention that Sensor clock is 2khz, i dont see the problem there.


how do you know?


----------



## kr0w

Just got mine in the mail. I didn't order the original version but right out the box it wasn't hard for me to transition to the shape from a IME3.0/G400. I clawed on the 3.0 and used a hybrid for the G400. Feels much more natural holding the FM2015SE the way I hold the 3.0. It's crazy how light weight this mouse is, so will take me a little bit to get use to it. I've attached the position and velocity in the x-direction vs. time using the mousetester software. I run on a laptop on high performance setting and haven't done a cleaning in a while so data may be distorted.


----------



## jeshuastarr

Just got the new revision. Immediately I can tell this is the best of the new mice (all other 3310 and 3366 mice). It will take me a few days to tell just how raw the control is and how high the skill cap is for the mouse. For now, all I can say is that the transition from a perfectly tracking IME 3.0 @ 1000hz is going rather well. I have attached the interval vs time graph to demonstrate the stability of the new **mcu firmware.


----------



## qsxcv

srom doesn't affect polling stability.

it's computer hardware/settings and mcu firmware


----------



## milkbreak

FinalMouse's support is super helpful. The too-sensitive mouse buttons issue is reportedly rare and they're sending out a replacement soon. If the new one works the way it should I'm going to be very happy since I already love the sensor.


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadeye*
> 
> Hello Jude,
> 
> About support team at FM, i'm personally disappointed in them, you did mention that they took care of their customers? When i got my mouse i had some issues, one of them was that the shel part was sticking out and was scratching my mouse pad, i did email them i believe it was via FM website but no responce, i believe i emailed twice but cant be sure now, so i ended up with Amazon to return my item.
> 
> This is just my experience with FM


When I had the problems with mine I emailed them using outlook mail and seemed like they didn't receive it somehow, I then tried gmail and they responded in 24hours, so I suggest trying a different mail because yours might be filtered out for some reasons. This is what Jude told me to do


----------



## casualgamer

Can anyone compare the size of FM2015 and the FK2? Thanks


----------



## kr0w

The only two faults I found in the mouse is a slightly higher LOD than I prefer and the center of gravity felt too far back. I applied hyperglides on top of the stock feet but it messes with the tracking. So I may order thinner mouse feet and attach them to this bad boy. The latter problem is easily solved by shifting back where I grip from the sides. The large M1 and M2 buttons don't feel uniform when pressing from the top tip vs towards the center towards the end of the mouse buttons. I'm guessing they will be find once the switches break in.


----------



## Deku

What about the click latency, can someone make a test in comparison to logitech mice.


----------



## uNfEiL

Is there anyone who can compare FM15SE to KPM? Size wise, sensor wise, shape wise...


----------



## auzcar

Do we have any clue when and if the ambidextrous version will be released? And roughly what size/shape it will be?


----------



## a_ak57

Don't think there was an actual ETA, just something like "hopefully later this year." As for details, this is what jude had posted:

Quote:


> New shape 1: The first new shape will be an Ambidextrous Version. This version will cater to individuals who come from the legacy WMO shape. This version will still look very much like the standard version. We are not looking to stray away from our design ID too much. This version will essentially elongate the mouse just a bit, and make the right hand side of the mouse identical to the left. So the mouse does not slope down in an ergonomic fashion its essentially symmetrical. Imagine just taking the left side of the FM and duplicating it. Additionally the grooves on the side will be much more subtle for this ambi version, since users of this style prefer a more flat side.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kr0w*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Just got mine in the mail. I didn't order the original version but right out the box it wasn't hard for me to transition to the shape from a IME3.0/G400. I clawed on the 3.0 and used a hybrid for the G400. Feels much more natural holding the FM2015SE the way I hold the 3.0. It's crazy how light weight this mouse is, so will take me a little bit to get use to it. I've attached the position and velocity in the x-direction vs. time using the mousetester software. I run on a laptop on high performance setting and haven't done a cleaning in a while so data may be distorted.


It's better to do one swipe across the mousepad as fast as you can.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Is there anyone who can compare FM15SE to KPM? Size wise, sensor wise, shape wise...


FM sensor is better. FM's lighter & larger. FM shape is better IMO. Build quality is similar.


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> FM sensor is better. FM's lighter & larger. FM shape is better IMO. Build quality is similar.


What about switches and scroll?

Anyone knows WHEN it's up for EU?


----------



## wmoftw

mouse feels weird in outlook express, might return it...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> What about switches and scroll?


Pretty similar from what I remember.


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Is there anyone who can compare FM15SE to KPM? Size wise, sensor wise, shape wise...


I can probably try tonight or tomorrow. I have been using a KPM for 6+ months and my new FM should delivered tonight.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auzcar*
> 
> Do we have any clue when and if the ambidextrous version will be released? And roughly what size/shape it will be?


No info on size/shape yet. I think the original plan for the ambi model was early 2016 - don't know if anything has changed.


----------



## Ellie1982

"FM sensor is better. FM's lighter & larger. FM shape is better IMO. Build quality is similar." - Are u kidding about build quality? It's a bad joke, really.


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ellie1982*
> 
> "FM sensor is better. FM's lighter & larger. FM shape is better IMO. Build quality is similar." - Are u kidding about build quality? It's a bad joke, really.


I've ordered both their original model and the current model. Build quality has been perfect on both units. Only thing that was wrong was the electrical issues first time around but those seem to be entirely fixed in the SE.


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> I've ordered both their original model and the current model. Build quality has been perfect on both units. Only thing that was wrong was the electrical issues first time around but those seem to be entirely fixed in the SE.


When did you get it? How is it performing compared to the old version?


----------



## falcon26

Is this mouse good for someone that uses the logitech G9?


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *casualgamer*
> 
> Can anyone compare the size of FM2015 and the FK2? Thanks


Got the FK2 about a week ago, FM a few minutes ago. FM slightly wider, and a good bit taller. Haven't plugged in the FM yet, initial impressions is that everything seems OK with it. Side buttons a bit janky compared to the FK2 and mouse feet also a bit louder? -- something might be dragging.


----------



## discoprince

just got mine and really like it, not a fan of the scroll wheel being so low though.


----------



## rmp459

~Compared to the KPM~

The FM feels to be a solid 15? grams lighter... I don't have a scale on hand, but its probably the lightest mouse I've ever used that still feel pretty solid at this size.
Next lightest that I've used is probably a Zowie Mico, which is considerably smaller in terms of body size.

Zero rattling in the body, lens side switches. All of the edges look/feel flush.

Scroll wheel is slightly more flush to the body and L/R buttons on the FM and might be a hair more forward on the body. The wheel is not as solid feeling as the one on the KPM, but the KPM has the best scroll wheel/encoder I have ever felt in a mouse.
On that note, I still feel the scroll wheel is better than the one's I have felt on my Zowie EC2, FK13, etc. Way better than the on on the Sensei RAW that i was playing around with a few months ago. It feels like it will hold up as well - only time will tell with this kind of hardware.

The side buttons are a little angled, but aren't in the way or bothersome, you know when you are feeling them. Again probably a slight edge to the KPM here, but nothing negative.

The thing I like most about the FM compared to the KPM is probably the shape/feel of the sides. The thumb side has a deeper grip that is textured. Somehow you can't tell where the glossy side ends and the thumb grip starts, it is molded well. Unlike that old Puretrak Mouse that looked like the thumb grip was glued on or something. It looks well made - I don't think I would really describe any part of this mouse as cheap, but you can tell that they were focused on keeping the weight down, which is actually something that appeals to me. As far as I am concerned, the lighter, the better.

The Pinky side grip has a cool shape to it, and I think this is one part that is far better on the FK than the KPM. It has a slight bump in the side that makes you feel like you always have perfect control over the mouse. The KPM's side is flat can can easily slip out of your hand.

The FM also has a fuller, slightly wider body, that makes you feel like your actually holding the mouse - the heel is more in my palm and it feels good even thought i have a hybrid grip myself.

Mine glides smoothy, even though the brand new skates are probably a tad noisier than my 8 month old KPM. It will probably just get smoother as time goes on. Nothing drags or scrapes on my QCK Heavy or 5mm Roccat Taito. I have a 9HD showing up tomorrow that I am going to test it with as well.

As for use and sensor feel, I think it definitely has more of a raw feel, it might be the best feeling 3310 I have used yet, as it felt natural out of the box (which is a very rare thing for me to feel.) Assuming they fixed the issues with the PCB/components and its not going to die in a few weeks, it doesn't seem to exhibit any of the serious issues people had with it before. If it had the scroll wheel/encoder from the KPM I would probably say it has everything I am looking for.

If anyone was waiting for the QC issues to be resolved before giving this mouse a serious look, I think you are probably good to go, assuming the price isn't an issue for you (for me is wasn't.)


----------



## springrolls

nice review +rep









Looks quite tempting...will probably be picking one up soon although 500hz is a bummer. Also the price...


----------



## banjogood

nice review indeed. already ordered mine anyway lol


----------



## MasterBash

What about the mouse cord?


----------



## Ellie1982

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> I've ordered both their original model and the current model. Build quality has been perfect on both units. Only thing that was wrong was the electrical issues first time around but those seem to be entirely fixed in the SE.


I get the old version - and i changed some piece of body (and buyed the MotoSpeed V2 for it), changed microswitches, repaired the wheel, changed the weel encoder and etc. The build qality of FM15 and materials quality of this mouse - the lowest that i've ever seen before.


----------



## aLv1080

I did read a few pages but I'm tired and I'm going to sleep, lemme ask you guys
Did they REALLY fix the DPI changing problem?

I'm really willing to buy this mouse, even tho I'll have to pay $143,90 (almost R$500)


----------



## Swim

Are the changes noticeable (sensor, build overall) between the old and revised versions?


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> What about the mouse cord?


its braided, very thin and lightweight tho, best mouse cord i've seen. Also I dont think they're changing the mouse cord on the Summer Edition


----------



## uNfEiL

rmp459 great comparison, +rep.

What aboud FM's dimensions (cm)? Does it feel like a bigger mouse compared to KPM?

And the most important question. Any info about when is this going to be out for Europeans?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> What about the mouse cord?


its light and manageable for a braided cable.

so far I'm really loving the mouse, it hit most of the things i wanted for a mouse on my check list:
lightweight
great sensor implementation
no drivers
good shape
good cable
low lift off distance

things that i personally dislike but aren't deal breakers:
scroll wheel to low
side button positioning isn't great
mouse feet are very thin
braided cable (i prefer the rubber one like on zowie mice)
no way to turn the LED's off (i prefer no LED)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> its braided, very thin and lightweight tho, best mouse cord i've seen. Also I dont think they're changing the mouse cord on the Summer Edition


Zowie's cable is worse?

Isn't nylon cheaper than copper?


----------



## banjogood

Has anyone put custom feet on their Finalmouse? Which one fit nicely? Microsoft IE3.0/IMO1.1?


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> rmp459 great comparison, +rep.
> 
> What aboud FM's dimensions (cm)? Does it feel like a bigger mouse compared to KPM?
> 
> And the most important question. Any info about when is this going to be out for Europeans?


w/ a ruler
~68mm at widest point
~127mm long

It's larger than the KPM, but I would say that for someone who loves small mice, it is contoured to take more advantage of your hand without making it feel like its a bigger mouse.
It fits deeper into your palm, it give you more grip locations on the side without making you drag ur fingers on the mat/pad, etc.
The finger spots are a little further back on the FM, so the added length over the KPM isn't so apparent. I'd probably classify it as a medium size mouse.. .but I think it will cater to people with a smaller than that aren't extreme claw grippers. To each there own here.

I hate the Avior 7000 shape, but I really like this one, if that comparison helps anyone.

Probably similar to the Zowie ZA idea where the heel of the mouse has more size to it to fit in ur palm better.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> its light and manageable for a braided cable.
> 
> so far I'm really loving the mouse, it hit most of the things i wanted for a mouse on my check list:
> lightweight
> great sensor implementation
> no drivers
> good shape
> good cable
> low lift off distance
> 
> things that i personally dislike but aren't deal breakers:
> scroll wheel to low
> side button positioning isn't great
> mouse feet are very thin
> braided cable (i prefer the rubber one like on zowie mice)
> no way to turn the LED's off (i prefer no LED)


Agree, the shape, lod, weight, feel, etc. All good.

The side buttons don't really bother me, although the KPM Is better here I think.
I also prefer rubber cables, but the braided one has not given me a problem yet, it is indeed lightweight, but not much of an improvement (if any) compared to the KPM. Tie here.
I always tie off my mouse cables to my monitor cables with velcro to keep it off the desk/pad.


----------



## springrolls

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> @r0ach
> 
> There is still no 1000hz version since our current flasher we have developed is mainly meant to flash the new SROM, in addition to the fact that we have not proven 1000hz stability consistently enough on a majority of motherboards.
> 
> As for a motherboard list, we hope to have that complete by next week. There are certain timing and voltage issues we are finding in certain models.
> 
> Hopefully by next week a public srom flasher will also be available (a public version will essentially just protect some of the source code). We are very busy at the moment since we are switching factories and production facilities, in addition to modifying molds and adding industrial design polish.
> 
> Additionally our supply and production overseer overseas is informing us that there are domestic parties here in the states consistently inquiring about the FM srom, firmware, and trying to copy/duplicate/steal/defame certain sensor implementation IP and brand information (hopefully our legal can take care of it). This is another thing currently adding a bit of delay to our timetable. Once all this is taken care of I am confident we can put more development time into getting a stable 1000hz version along with a motherboard compatibility list...
> 
> Kind Regards & Happy Gaming,
> Jude


any progress on that motherboard list?


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *springrolls*
> 
> any progress on that motherboard list?


and m_rawinput 1 findings pls
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> Has anyone put custom feet on their Finalmouse? Which one fit nicely? Microsoft IE3.0/IMO1.1?


bump


----------



## qsxcv

he already said that what they thought was related to m_rawinput 1 was actually due to motherboard stuff. i wish they could be more transparent about whatever research theyre doing instead of just dropping random vague hints from time to time. but i guess it's understandable


----------



## rmp459

You might be able to get 2-3mm custom mouse feet on it if you removed the existing ones, but it would be close. The LOD is pretty well tweaked for the stock set up and is already quite low, like 1.5mm tops.

Might be worth getting a sheet of 2mm ptfe or whatever you wanna use and custom cut out some skates.

Im satisfied with this for now.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> he already said that what they thought was related to m_rawinput 1 was actually due to motherboard stuff. i wish they could be more transparent about whatever research theyre doing instead of just dropping random vague hints from time to time. but i guess it's understandable


oh i missed that. im even more curious now.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rmp459*
> 
> You might be able to get 2-3mm custom mouse feet on it if you removed the existing ones, but it would be close. The LOD is pretty well tweaked for the stock set up and is already quite low, like 1.5mm tops.
> 
> Might be worth getting a sheet of 2mm ptfe or whatever you wanna use and custom cut out some skates.
> 
> Im satisfied with this for now.


I usually like high LOD so maybe I could put very thin mouse feet over the existing ones. maybe I'll be ok withstock. What I'm afraid with cutting my own is they're not going to be as round as factory made mouse feet.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ellie1982*
> 
> "FM sensor is better. FM's lighter & larger. FM shape is better IMO. Build quality is similar." - Are u kidding about build quality? It's a bad joke, really.


I've tried 3 of them and they've all had really good build quality.


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> bump


I used some 0.6mm Tiger Gaming IE3.0/IO1.1 feet, they fit in the gaps left by the stock ones fine and are a vast improvement.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> I used some 0.6mm Tiger Gaming IE3.0/IO1.1 feet, they fit in the gaps left by the stock ones fine and are a vast improvement.


glad to hear. I have a pair of hyperglides which means I'll be able to change them right away when I get my mouse shipped up here in Canada.


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> I used some 0.6mm Tiger Gaming IE3.0/IO1.1 feet, they fit in the gaps left by the stock ones fine and are a vast improvement.


How about some pics? And how thick were the original feet (if you still have them and/or an accurate way to measure)?


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> How about some pics? And how thick were the original feet (if you still have them and/or an accurate way to measure)?


Binned the stock ones a while back, and potato pictures incoming:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

So I guess you aren't having an issue with catching on those exposed edges, due to the smaller, different shaped mouse feet? I guess I just get a little over-excited sometimes and put too much pressure on my mouse, because sometimes I can feel those edges catching or dragging ever so slightly, even with the stock mouse feet in my Mionix Naos 7000.

Thanks for the pictures


----------



## dlano

I actually saw more marks on my mousepad from the original feet which weren't fitted that well, but as long as I don't put stupid amounts of pressure down I can't feel it catching on anything. I may yet sand down some of the edges should it become an issue however.


----------



## uNfEiL

Isn't FM like a very lightweight mouse? How would you compare it to KPM and deathadder chroma e. g.? Isn't it like too much light?


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Isn't FM like a very lightweight mouse? How would you compare it to KPM and deathadder chroma e. g.? Isn't it like too much light?


Too light can't be a bad thing when it comes to a mouse tbh. The lighter it is the less it strains your hand.


----------



## uNfEiL

Yeah I know people always say "the lighter the better" but there must be some limit.


----------



## milkbreak

Has anyone received a tracking number for their replacement mice yet?


----------



## markts

Yep. Mine has shipped and should be here today or tomorrow, shipped from Amazon. (thanks Jude!)

Edit: It's here! Thanks Amazon Sunday delivery!


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Yeah I know people always say "the lighter the better" but there must be some limit.


I wouldn't say it's too light - just right for me. Still feels "solid" and after two days of using it.
I guess what I am trying to describe is that it isn't so light that it feels like a plastic toy.
Once you adjust to the weight it feels like a totally normal gaming mouse. Everything is going to feel heavy to you after you adjust to it though.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *markts*
> 
> Yep. Mine has shipped and should be here today or tomorrow, shipped from Amazon. (thanks Jude!)
> 
> Edit: It's here! Thanks Amazon Sunday delivery!


YES!!! Walked outside today and looked down thinking "Uhhhhhh It's sunday wth is this?" BOOOOOOOOOOM FINALMOUSE!


----------



## falcon26

How does the Final Mouse compare to the Logitech G9? Would someone going from the G9 have an easy time adjusting to the final mouse?


----------



## detto87

Would be nice if someone could test the Finalmouse on the Artisan Raiden. :>


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrWhiteRX7*
> 
> YES!!! Walked outside today and looked down thinking "Uhhhhhh It's sunday wth is this?" BOOOOOOOOOOM FINALMOUSE!


Hey cmon dude describe it! I really wonder if there are also some defective ones like it was in the first edition.


----------



## milkbreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrWhiteRX7*
> 
> YES!!! Walked outside today and looked down thinking "Uhhhhhh It's sunday wth is this?" BOOOOOOOOOOM FINALMOUSE!


Are these replacements or new purchases?


----------



## milkbreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Hey cmon dude describe it! I really wonder if there are also some defective ones like it was in the first edition.


There is at least one, supposedly rare, defect in the new batch with oversensitive mouse buttons. Myself and at least one other poster have been hit by that problem. The sensor is worth waiting for a replacement though, in my opinion.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Yeah I know people always say "the lighter the better" but there must be some limit.


Technically, there shouldn't be a limit where the mouse is too light. Though there might be an adjustment period.

Imagine if the mousepad was the "detector", and you moved just your hand across it. This would be the optimal mouse & pad experience IMO. And since there is no mouse in the hand the weight would be zero.

High weight however, is objectively problematic, as it increases strain & fatigue.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Yeah I know people always say "the lighter the better" but there must be some limit.


The Finalmouse is most likely as light as possible for a mouse that size using that specific plastic.

Lighter is always better!


----------



## griffinz

I've had the new version of this mouse for a few days now, and it is pretty good.

I am coming from a stable of logitech g500 mice, which have been my go to mouse for a long time now. They've always been too heavy but I like the overall shape even for my predominantly fingertip grip style.

I finally decided to try to replace them. First try was the Zowie FK2, really like the build quality and the sensor, did not like the ambidextrous shape or the heavy/loud clicks. I wanted to try this shape because before the g500 I used the Microsoft Laser Mouse 6000, which was ambidextrous, had a great sensor (for the time period), and a horrible scroll wheel. The FK2 is on the shelf now as the backup mouse.

On to the FinalMouse. Really like the shape, size, and weight. My wrist clearly prefers an ergo mouse for that slight wrist tilt you get. Sensor/tracking seems on par with the FK2, DPI accuracy feels the same. The main buttons are nice and light to click (my preference over the Zowie), I am not getting any accidental clicks some people have been reporting either. Click latency, 9.5ms average better than the FK2 in the bang your mice together test. The scroll wheel is light and accurate, it does not miss any scrolls like the FK2 occasionally does. The fit and finish of the plastic is passable, but could be better. At this point I plan to use this as my primary mouse.

Some of the minor issues
- I prefer the rubber cord of Zowie mice, although the FinalMouse cord is much lighter than the G500 braided cord.
- The side buttons are meh, I don't really use them often, and would prefer them not exist and the mouse be even lighter.
- The upper grip coating feels like its going to rub off (I'm not sure if it is or not) I'd prefer a textured or even gloss plastic. I grip the glossy sides of the mouse with my fingers, so maybe this coating is more for palm style?

My only real major annoyance is that one of the feet on my mouse was substantially thicker than the rest of them creating a rocking issue (until I replaced them all).

If the FInalMouse breaks or has some other issues in the future, I'll probably try to destroy an EC2-A with a soldering iron and some omron switches.


----------



## uNfEiL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I've had the new version of this mouse for a few days now, and it is pretty good.
> 
> I am coming from a stable of logitech g500 mice, which have been my go to mouse for a long time now. They've always been too heavy but I like the overall shape even for my predominantly fingertip grip style.
> 
> I finally decided to try to replace them. First try was the Zowie FK2, really like the build quality and the sensor, did not like the ambidextrous shape or the heavy/loud clicks. I wanted to try this shape because before the g500 I used the Microsoft Laser Mouse 6000, which was ambidextrous, had a great sensor (for the time period), and a horrible scroll wheel. The FK2 is on the shelf now as the backup mouse.
> 
> On to the FinalMouse. Really like the shape, size, and weight. My wrist clearly prefers an ergo mouse for that slight wrist tilt you get. Sensor/tracking seems on par with the FK2, DPI accuracy feels the same. The main buttons are nice and light to click (my preference over the Zowie), I am not getting any accidental clicks some people have been reporting either. Click latency, 9.5ms average better than the FK2 in the bang your mice together test. The scroll wheel is light and accurate, it does not miss any scrolls like the FK2 occasionally does. The fit and finish of the plastic is passable, but could be better. At this point I plan to use this as my primary mouse.
> 
> Some of the minor issues
> - I prefer the rubber cord of Zowie mice, although the FinalMouse cord is much lighter than the G500 braided cord.
> - The side buttons are meh, I don't really use them often, and would prefer them not exist and the mouse be even lighter.
> - The upper grip coating feels like its going to rub off (I'm not sure if it is or not) I'd prefer a textured or even gloss plastic. I grip the glossy sides of the mouse with my fingers, so maybe this coating is more for palm style?
> 
> My only real major annoyance is that one of the feet on my mouse was substantially thicker than the rest of them creating a rocking issue (until I replaced them all).
> 
> If the FInalMouse breaks or has some other issues in the future, I'll probably try to destroy an EC2-A with a soldering iron and some omron switches.


Hey thanks for your input. What's your hand size?


----------



## markts

Mine was a replacement.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uNfEiL*
> 
> Hey thanks for your input. What's your hand size?


19.5-20cm


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Mine was a replacement.. been waiting about 5 weeks now or so. Been using it a good bit today and love it







The body (from what I can tell) is exactly the same as the early version. The bottom lettering seems to be engraved now instead of white text lol.


----------



## orcus286

The side buttons feel cheap to me and I wish there was a way to turn the led off... It is way too bright.


----------



## milkbreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *markts*
> 
> Mine was a replacement.


Did you receive a tracking number for it before you received it? I'm holding out hope that my replacement comes today by some miracle


----------



## markts

Sorry, I did get an email with tracking from Amazon before it arrived.


----------



## uNfEiL

Guys it's happening.

"Hello uNfEiL,

We are expecting availability in the UK to be ready on Tuesday/Wednesday of this week.

Thanks,
FinalMouse Support"


----------



## uNfEiL

Is there anyone from Europe who ordered it from amazon.co.uk and did RMA it? How did it go? Did you have to send it back and did you have to pay the shipping to them by yourself or did they refund it?

I really wonder cuz I will definitely buy this mouse but I'm a bit worried cuz there might be the case that it becomes eventually defective. And shipping from my country to UK is like ~15€.


----------



## Buttnose

Having similar thoughts to uNfEiL, specifically wondering if anyone has experienced the loose cable problem that the g400 was notorious for? Considering buying this but don't want to be RMAing every few months.


----------



## qsxcv

https://twitter.com/Thooorin/status/605361417601064961?s=09

looool


----------



## griffinz

The indent for the mouse foot below the left button on my mouse is not as recessed as the others. Originally I had thought it was a bad mouse foot, and having replaced the feet the problem was better, thinking the new feet were slightly softer to compensate for this plastic molding issue. However, the mouse won't sit flat on a level surface, rocking with either the right front or left rear slightly raised off the surface maybe a few tenths of a millimeter.

If you are worried about RMA, QC issues, or receiving the perfect mouse, I don't think this is the mouse for you. What you are buying is a cheap, lightweight, ergonomic shell with a better sensor, firmware and switches than the original ~$20 version. If you compare on price to the other 3310 based ergos it is competitive, and they all have their issues as well.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> https://twitter.com/Thooorin/status/605361417601064961?s=09
> 
> looool


Yeah, I went on their site the other day and had a laugh when I saw that.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, I went on their site the other day and had a laugh when I saw that.


TBF he actually was, back in Source. As it's not saying in CSGO, it's not too far from the truth


----------



## qsxcv

the marketing on the website is so over the top in general...


----------



## Nivity

Well qtpie still uses his Deathadder, he said yesterday that he liked the FM but the sidebuttons are garbage, and he uses them to orbwalk.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Well qtpie still uses his Deathadder, he said yesterday that he liked the FM but the sidebuttons are garbage, and he uses them to orbwalk.


So does Adren, I asked him why on his stream and he simply said "because we are sponsored by Razer"

Maybe they should consider adding summit







He seems to really like it and he's not bad at CS or FPS in general.


----------



## aayman_farzand

My package was delivered on Saturday and I wasn't there to pick it up. Fed Ex left it at my door and now it's stolen. Glorious student apartments...


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> My package was delivered on Saturday and I wasn't there to pick it up. Fed Ex left it at my door and now it's stolen. Glorious student apartments...


Sorry to hear that man. Seriously is some bull.


----------



## Axaion

Are they even allowed to do that?


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> https://twitter.com/Thooorin/status/605361417601064961?s=09
> 
> looool


Anyone who has a clue on what's going on with the CSGO scene will just feel Finalmouse is pulling his leg. I mean:
Quote:


> Finalmouse was engineered specifically for the demanding requirements of professional gamers. -Finalmouse's website


and
Quote:


> Finalmouse was designed to be the industry standard for professional gamers. No gimmicks, no frills, just pure performance for elite esport athletes. -Finalmouse's website


They are obviously focusing in a niche market that clearly has more understanding of things and has better knowledge/experience than most of the other people that just buy stuff because of the cool factor and other gimmicks right? So why wouldn't they advertise this "Pro Finalmouse Team" stuff more carefully because there are going to be reactions to such inaccurate statements. What about just being "low profile" on this for now.

I as many others here, have good expectations of their product and buy their mouse to support them because from what I see, they are trying to do what other companies are ignoring/overlooking when it comes to how a "gaming mouse" should perform (at least that's what Jude made us believe and I really hope it is that way). Personally I'd like to advise them to avoid any kind of exaggerations, because at this point, we know there are some on the website that would lead people to think as false advertising.

And speaking about advertisements on their website: "100% qc factory inspection" should be true and a priority right now. I'm getting mine on june 8th here in Peru, fingers crossed/will update.


----------



## MasterBash

Really? Why would they leave a package there? I dont know but doesnt it say something like they need to drop it somewhere "safe" on their website?

Tell them it was delivered but you did not get it and that you have no idea who they delivered it to.

I want to buy this mouse just for the shape and weight. I already got a 3366 mouse, so sensor wouldnt matter, but the lack of 1000hz is bothering me.

I read that the side buttons are pretty bad too.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> Really? Why would they leave a package there? I dont know but doesnt it say something like they need to drop it somewhere "safe" on their website?
> 
> Tell them it was delivered but you did not get it and that you have no idea who they delivered it to.
> 
> I want to buy this mouse just for the shape and weight. I already got a 3366 mouse, so sensor wouldnt matter, but the lack of 1000hz is bothering me.
> 
> I read that the side buttons are pretty bad too.


The 500 only setting should not shy you away from giving it a shot. It's the mouse for me that has easily felt the best. Side buttons? Not the best, not the absolute worst but they are tolerable. I have tried every mouse practically under the sun & have no problem saying FM wins for me. As others have said it feels very raw, i recommend trying it.


----------



## MasterBash

Its not that. Its the fact that the mouse is missing stuff like 1000hz and has mediocre side buttons *for 110$* in my country.

I hope it comes to amazon canada one day.

I can get the g303 for less than 60.


----------



## Nivity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> ffs my package was delivered on Saturday and I wasn't there to pick it up. Fed Ex left it at my door and now it's stolen. Glorious student apartments...


Never understood why that was ok to do, when I was in the US I saw packages just left at the door, I was like ....

In Sweden you NEED to sign for it, or they will not deliver it, period.

Would be scared if they just left a package there when im not home lol









Might try it, but I think amazon.co.uk price will be high + shipping cost to Sweden.


----------



## rmp459

That marketing









I wish they would just focus on the next iteration of the mouse and let the product speak for itself.
I realize they are in business to make money, but if they really want to live up to that "Final Mouse" hype they need a model that resolves most of the issues presented by the community and lasts. Obviously, razer and SS can push their weight around and show their products through sponsorship's and pro's etc - it doesn't mean its the best way to do it. Community is always gonna be critical.

I already agree that sensor wise, this is probably the best implementation of the 3310, with the KPM in close second/tie. If they come out with new ambi/ergo models as planned and manage to put in better side buttons, maybe a better set up with feet on the bottom (/cough MS 1.1 feet/molds /cough), and maybe look into a more solid scroll wheel like the KPM - we would have that final mouse probably. A thin rubber cord wouldn't hurt either.

After this weekend, I decided im gonna use the FM for the foreseeable future. See how well it holds up over time - would be nice to see the next models by winter/new year though. They have a chance if they iron out the little stuff and make a pair of no-bs affordable models with the same feel as this revised model.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> My package was delivered on Saturday and I wasn't there to pick it up. Fed Ex left it at my door and now it's stolen. Glorious student apartments...


Don't they have an option for sign only delivery?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterBash*
> 
> Its not that. Its the fact that the mouse is missing stuff like 1000hz and has mediocre side buttons *for 110$* in my country.
> 
> I hope it comes to amazon canada one day.
> 
> I can get the g303 for less than 60.


Missing a 1000hz & mediocre side buttons should not stop you from trying as i said. Now $110? That could & i would not blame you. Lol

G303 has the worse shape i have held thus far.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Missing a 1000hz & mediocre side buttons should not stop you from trying as i said. Now $110? That could & i would not blame you. Lol
> 
> G303 has the worse shape i have held thus far.


The side buttons is why I returned the Kana.


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nivity*
> 
> Never understood why that was ok to do, when I was in the US I saw packages just left at the door, I was like ....
> 
> In Sweden you NEED to sign for it, or they will not deliver it, period.
> 
> Would be scared if they just left a package there when im not home lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might try it, but I think amazon.co.uk price will be high + shipping cost to Sweden.


I like having it left at my doorstep or under the welcome mat. Otherwise I have to go pick it up at the post office or carrier depot (usually not that convenient). Townhouse though, so it's covered and the general public don't just walk by.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Don't they have an option for sign only delivery?


Signing for it is mandatory but the FedEx guy doesn't listen. It's the apartment's policy for carriers to first try to deliver to each unit, and if the tenant isn't there then they can leave it in the leasing office where they sign for the package and keep it in secure storage.

FedEx didn't bother with that and just left it at the door. UPS always follows the proper procedure and I never had a package go missing from them. I already got my refund through Amazon and gave them all necessary details, hopefully they will learn from their mistakes.


----------



## Derp

Many people have said great things about Finalmouse's implementation of the 3310 when it comes to clean mousetester plots and how responsive it is but how is the variance? In my opinion variance is one of the most important details of a sensor. I have repeated the same test found in Ino's variance videos and the 3366 (g303) has the least variance compared to other mice that I have tested.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

The middle click on my KPM was way too stiff.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Signing for it is mandatory but the FedEx guy doesn't listen. It's the apartment's policy for carriers to first try to deliver to each unit, and if the tenant isn't there then they can leave it in the leasing office where they sign for the package and keep it in secure storage.
> 
> FedEx didn't bother with that and just left it at the door. UPS always follows the proper procedure and I never had a package go missing from them. I already got my refund through Amazon and gave them all necessary details, hopefully they will learn from their mistakes.


If that's the case you might be able to get FedEx to refund you or cover the costs of a new one.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Many people have said great things about Finalmouse's implementation of the 3310 when it comes to clean mousetester plots and how responsive it is but how is the variance? In my opinion variance is one of the most important details of a sensor. I have repeated the same test found in Ino's variance videos and the 3366 (g303) has the least variance compared to other mice that I have tested.


The original one had lots of variance. It's unknown about the summer edition. If people with the summer edition would post xvelocity graphs we could find out.

Directions: http://www.overclock.net/t/1552218/zowie-za-11-12-13-mouse/800_50#post_23912488


----------



## qsxcv

you cant really tell accuracy variance from mousetester


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Differences in xvelocity graphs show accuracy variance if you control for variables that affect mousetester results.

Maybe we're confusing two different things though, since the previous poster referenced Ino, and I've never seen him talk about that. Only thing I've seen Ino test for is accel.


----------



## qsxcv

i mean like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8WhETejmoY
i thought that's what we always mean by variance

ofc you can always consider the deviations/variance/whatever in mousetester plots


----------



## Vantavia

With the amount of postponing of the EU release I'd be forgiven for thinking they don't want my dirty GBP >.>


----------



## Derp

qsxcv is correct. I was referring to the speed-related accuracy variance. Sorry for being unclear.


----------



## qsxcv

dynamic sensor framerate on the finalmouse:

standby/slow motion (like <10cm/s) ~2080hz


medium speed motion ~4150hz


probably there is an even higher framerate at higher motion speeds, but it's not easy to move the mouse around with oscilloscope probes attached.

sometimes when i lift the mouse i see a 6750hz reading. this is similar to the 3366's behavior. given the 3310's datasheet's mention of 6500 being the max, this is probably the maximum framerate in the finalmouse

more coming soon...


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> probably there is an even higher framerate at higher motion speeds, but it's not easy to move the mouse around with oscilloscope probes attached.


Can't you just move the mouse pad?


----------



## qsxcv

scope takes a few moments to print the screen so i would need to move the mousepad for at least a second... which isn't easy if the transition speed is ~1m/s (at least that's what it is for g303)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I get around 300-400fps in csgo and I couldn't tell the difference between 500 and 1000hz. Couldn't tell the difference in 1.6 either. The difference between 125 and 500 is very obvious though.


----------



## qsxcv

pretty easy for me to tell in csgo ~300fps. well actually i;ve never tried for the same mouse, but [email protected] is much smoother than and 500hz mouse i've tried.

i hope i don't affect anyone's perception of the product with this but here goes.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



this analysis i did for the g303:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1541751/logitech-g303-daedalus-apex-gaming-mouse/2930#post_23970283

i just did the same for the finalmouse

the numbers i got from sniffing the spi bus do not correspond to the numbers in mousetester exactly. it appears that the finalmouse's mcu is doing some sort of processing to smooth out the data it receives from the sensor. at the very least i can say that the mcu isn't only adding up numbers

more to come soon.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Try switching between 500 and 1000 with the WMO.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Many people have said great things about Finalmouse's implementation of the 3310 when it comes to clean mousetester plots and how responsive it is but how is the variance? In my opinion variance is one of the most important details of a sensor.


As unbelievable as it may sound to some, 3310´s and 3988´s variance is annoying me a lot despite having a very small impact, but the difference to other Sensors is definitely feelable.

Edit: On the QcK, just to mention it.


----------



## qsxcv

details:

setup is an upgrade from last time. i'm using some thin wire wrapping wire instead of bare copper

















blue is trace of green usb wire. you can see the stable 1khz usb polling. the mouse only responds to every other poll though, which is why we say that it has 500hz usb "polling".


yellow is sclk, light blue is miso (sensor to mcu), pink is mosi (mcu to sensor)

as you can see there's some weird cadence to the spi communication. however it is synchronized to the usb polling and since it has 2ms periodicity, this is perfectly fine given that it has 500hz polling.

after starting mousetester logging, i moved the mouse and recorded 24ms of spi communication on the scope.
the raw data the sensor sent to the mcu was


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



25 27
46 48
20 21
46 49
25 26
44 48
20 21
44 47
24 27
44 47
24 26
38 42
24 26
42 47
23 25
42 47
18 20
42 45
18 20
41 45
23 24
41 44
18 20
40 43



as mentioned above, 500hz "polling" means that the mcu responds to every other usb poll. as seen in the image of the usb data trace, between every other usb poll, the sensor sends motion data to the mcu twice. so if the mcu did absolutely minimal processing, it would just add up pairs of sensor data and send over usb. since i don't know on which usb polls the mcu responds, i don't know whether it adds up the 1st and 2nd points, 3rd and 4th points, etc... or the 2nd and 3rd points, 4th and 5th points, etc...

so to simulate what a minimal-processing mcu could do to this data, i considered both options.
the first would give this data


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



71 75
66 70
69 74
64 68
68 74
62 68
68 73
65 72
60 65
59 65
64 68
58 63



the second would give this data


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



66 69
71 75
64 69
68 74
68 73
62 68
65 72
60 67
60 65
64 69
59 64



in the mousetester log, i found neither of these exact numbers. however there was a single region in the log which definitely corresponded to this motion. no other region in the log had numbers close to this and a similar x/y ratio


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



(note y axis is of opposite sign, since for avago sensors moving down gives positive raw data)
73,-75,1013.98149862918
74,-75,1015.98353665298
71,-73,1017.9817713019
72,-74,1019.98263905651
70,-72,1021.98262910922
71,-74,1023.98437456572
68,-71,1025.98173151275
70,-73,1027.98230670005
67,-71,1029.98317445466
67,-73,1031.98433477657
68,-73,1033.98227685819
65,-70,1035.98372974739
65,-71,1037.98225696361
62,-69,1039.98136931443
61,-67,1041.98106679984
63,-68,1043.98193455445
61,-66,1045.98163203986
61,-67,1047.98279236177
60,-64,1049.98483038557
60,-65,1051.98306503449
60,-64,1053.9836402218
57,-61,1055.98392284181
58,-61,1057.98391289452
57,-59,1059.98097727425
57,-59,1061.98301529805
56,-56,1063.98066481237


if you just look at the numbers you can clearly see that there are far fewer fluctuations than either of the two simulated data above. or look at this plot. not exactly sure how to line up the data but it's pretty close









as of right now I'm not exactly sure how the mcu processes the data to achieve this though i'll try to find out.

but the take-away from this is that the reason that the mousetester plots are so smooth is not because of high sensor framerate or some sensor magic. it's due to some post-processing by the mcu. actually i had already suspected this here








http://esreality.com/post/2707175/proof-of-poor-sensor-performance/#pid2710771


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> so if the mcu did absolutely minimal processing, it would just add up pairs of sensor data and send over usb,


Qsxcv,

If only the data pipelining could be so simple.... The controllers internal clocks need to take instructions and run them through the appropriate clock cycles (specific to that controller), before the logic unit applys any arithmetic.

But what you are getting into is actually very important, because the controller you utilize effects both the read from the sensor and the read from your system. So you are dealing not just with sensor performance and compatibility but even system bus compatibility.

Long story short is the FM's 3310 logic is not going to to come out the same on every controller. And unfortunately we dont live in a world where our mobos buses can take instructions directly from the sensor like we all want. All we can do is make sure the compatibility is done correctly, and this is done via extensive testing. (DEFINITELY not mousetester graph testing







) One of these days I will have to play around with this mousetester software in more detail before giving any unfair judgement .

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I get around 300-400fps in *csgo* and I couldn't tell the difference between 500 and 1000hz. Couldn't tell the difference in 1.6 either. The difference between 125 and 500 is very obvious though.


CSGO?









Blasphemy!


----------



## Sencha

I'm in for one of these. When can I get one in the UK?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> CSGO?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blasphemy!


There are almost zero 1.6 servers left ._.

I'm going to have to resort to using CSGO to test mice eventually.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Qsxcv,
> 
> If only the data pipelining could be so simple....


well you read sensor data over spi twice in each usb polling period, add up the data, store it in ram, and then when a usb poll comes you send the number over.
as i've confirmed before that's exactly what the logitech g303 does

is there any issue with this scheme?
Quote:


> The controllers internal clocks need to take instructions and run them through the appropriate clock cycles (specific to that controller), before the logic unit applys any arithmetic.


either this is a completely trivial statement or i'm not understanding you correctly.

by controller i assume you mean the microcontroller/mcu of the mouse.
Quote:


> But what you are getting into is actually very important, because the controller you utilize effects both the read from the sensor and the read from your system. So you are dealing not just with sensor performance and compatibility but even system bus compatibility.


i think you mean "because the coding/firmware for the controller effects both..."
Quote:


> Long story short is the FM's 3310 logic is not going to to come out the same on every controller.


how does this matter? every finalmouse has the same controller right??
i'm not using any controller to sniff the spi bus. i'm just probing the pins on the sensor with an oscilloscope, which happens to have a handy spi decode function which i've verified to work perfectly on 4 different mice already.
Quote:


> And unfortunately we dont live in a world where our mobos buses can take instructions directly from the sensor like we all want. All we can do is make sure the compatibility is done correctly, and this is done via extensive testing. (DEFINITELY not mousetester graph testing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) One of these days I will have to play around with this mousetester software in more detail before giving any unfair judgement .


yes and that's why the microcontroller should do nothing but relay the sensor's data to the motherboard.
mousetester is perfectly fine for what it is: recording and plotting mouse motion data.


----------



## qsxcv

i did the same thing for the g303 at 500hz.

raw data


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



73 73
72 75
73 73
91 90
71 74
71 72
74 73
72 73
91 92
69 71
73 73
71 71
71 72
70 69
92 89
69 70
71 69
70 69
69 68
71 68
89 85
70 65
69 68
71 64



adding up 2nd and 3rd, 4th and 5th, etc... gives this data


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



145 148
162 164
145 145
163 165
142 144
142 143
162 158
140 139
139 137
160 153
139 133



which exactly matches the log file:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



148,-149,437.982315477073
168,-167,439.975283914621
145,-152,441.975566534631
*145,-148,443.975556587343
162,-164,445.975254072756
145,-145,447.981680606036
163,-165,449.975526745478
142,-144,451.975224230892
142,-143,453.986039273649
162,-158,455.981348249585
140,-139,457.976364658221
139,-137,459.980450653113
160,-153,461.975174494451
139,-133,463.97574968176*
141,-130,465.980420811248
153,-148,467.975144652587
135,-130,469.982448887762
136,-125,471.980976103981
152,-141,473.975699945319



so you see that at 500hz, the g303's mcu does absolutely no processing except adding numbers

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Try switching between 500 and 1000 with the WMO.


hm just tried switching between 500 and 1000 on g303
i'm not sure if i notice a difference actually







i think i do but it could just be in my head. both are a quite bit smoother than what i'm used to from g100s though


----------



## EvenR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Many people have said great things about Finalmouse's implementation of the 3310 when it comes to clean mousetester plots and how responsive it is but how is the variance? In my opinion variance is one of the most important details of a sensor. I have repeated the same test found in Ino's variance videos and the 3366 (g303) has the least variance compared to other mice that I have tested.


What is this variance you're talking about? Please explain


----------



## qsxcv

it basically means sensor mouse accel


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> What is this variance you're talking about? Please explain


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i mean like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8WhETejmoY
> i thought that's what we always mean by variance
> 
> ofc you can always consider the deviations/variance/whatever in mousetester plots


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> qsxcv is correct. I was referring to the speed-related accuracy variance. Sorry for being unclear.


----------



## EvenR

Oh so it's like acceleration? You move it fast it goes further than if you had moved it slowly...

My understanding was that the FinalMouse has none of this? But does it?

Even my Razer Deathadder 2013 doesn't have acceleration...


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> Oh so it's like acceleration? You move it fast it goes further than if you had moved it slowly...
> 
> My understanding was that the FinalMouse has none of this? But does it?
> 
> Even my Razer Deathadder 2013 doesn't have acceleration...


'Correct term' for that is 'speed-related accuracy variance' technically all mouse have them but some are lesser than others.


----------



## EvenR

Okay and the FinalMouse has it bad?


----------



## powerslave

so the relase date for europe has been fixed?
i have to buy my monthly mouse


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> Okay and the FinalMouse has it bad?


Some said it doesn't
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Mine had exactly zero accel, which was a positive surprise. I'm pretty happy with the performance of mine altogether.


----------



## humble

I just received my Final Mouse yesterday and was super excited until I plugged it in lol
I swipe my mouse left and right in-game without lifting the mouse and my cursor in-game won't track all left and right movements. So it'll swipe left and right a few times, then stop tracking if that makes sense? I've tried this on the qck+ and on a qck hard pad. Please help. My friend said to RMA it since his works flawlessly. I sent you folks an e-mail.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> but the take-away from this is that the reason that the mousetester plots are so smooth is not because of high sensor framerate or some sensor magic. it's due to some post-processing by the mcu. actually i had already suspected this here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://esreality.com/post/2707175/proof-of-poor-sensor-performance/#pid2710771


Well well well.









Wonderful information and testing you've been providing. I've been following and learning new stuff. Sure beats the feels method.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> Some said it doesn't


My method of testing is very poor unfortunately, as I move the mouse with my hand. And sometimes my Zowies seem to show no variance, sometimes they do, just like the Finalmouse does. But it's definitely very little variance, similar to all 3310, but worse than 3366.

Btw great work Qsxcv, we shared the same suspicion about the clean graphs but you actually did the science for it, very cool stuff!

it also shows that "feelings" are easily wrong, as many people felt the FinalMouse was the most "raw".
It also shows that a processed cursor can apparently feel better than one without any processing


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> My method of testing is very poor unfortunately, as I move the mouse with my hand. And sometimes my Zowies seem to show no variance, sometimes they do, just like the Finalmouse does. But it's definitely very little variance, similar to all 3310, but worse than 3366.
> 
> Btw great work Qsxcv, we shared the same suspicion about the clean graphs but you actually did the science for it, very cool stuff!
> 
> it also shows that "feelings" are easily wrong, as many people felt the FinalMouse was the most "raw".
> It also shows that a processed cursor can apparently feel better than one without any processing


Given how you review mouses past I would give the benefit of doubt.

...but if we can use robot arm it would be awesome.


----------



## Buttnose

Was gonna buy the FM as soon as it came on amazon.co.uk. Now I'm waiting for a clear answer from the FM team about whats going on with qsxcv's findings.


----------



## baskinghobo

Do all mouse have variance? even the wmo?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> Was gonna buy the FM as soon as it came on amazon.co.uk. Now I'm waiting for a clear answer from the FM team about whats going on with qsxcv's findings.


Well, there is smoothing, but the mouse works just fine.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *baskinghobo*
> 
> Do all mouse have variance? even the wmo?


Yes. The amount of variance varies.


----------



## powerslave

Now im really curious to see the result of qsxcv test on a am10 mouse ,that sensor is the one thatt give me the more "raw sensation"(sounds like something porno related), would be funny if it results the one with more post processing^^


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> As unbelievable as it may sound to some, 3310´s and 3988´s variance is annoying me a lot despite having a very small impact, but the difference to other Sensors is definitely feelable.
> 
> Edit: On the QcK, just to mention it.


Interesting. I don't have any 3310 mice and only had one 3988 (Evga X5) that I quickly returned. The X5's 3988 felt really weird to me but I regretfully forgot to test the variance. On a cloth pad would you say that on average the 3310 and 3988 has a higher variance than other sensors like the 3090 and the am010?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *powerslave*
> 
> Now im really curious to see the result of qsxcv test on a am10 mouse ,that sensor is the one thatt give me the more "raw sensation"(sounds like something porno related), would be funny if it results the one with more post processing^^


I would like to see that too. It might be the low fps causing this feeling.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> Was gonna buy the FM as soon as it came on amazon.co.uk. Now I'm waiting for a clear answer from the FM team about whats going on with qsxcv's findings.


just buy it then... if anything, given that everyone praises the sensor/sensor implementation, apparently this processing makes the sensor feel even better somehow
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *powerslave*
> 
> Now im really curious to see the result of qsxcv test on a am10 mouse ,that sensor is the one thatt give me the more "raw sensation"(sounds like something porno related), would be funny if it results the one with more post processing^^


last time i tried it was 3 wire-spi with a bit of a different format from the usual 4-wire communications. i'll try again tonight though

anyway, mouse-smashing (http://www.overclock.net/t/1554228/visualizing-smoothing-in-mousetester)
gives this








but i'm not really sure if the slow rise is due to the processing or because the shell is too soft for the fm.

still even the tail is way too smooth and shows that the quantization noise isn't being dithered completely (lack of overlap between series of blue dots) or maybe it's due to 500hz

here's a perfect result from the [email protected]


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> just buy it then... if anything, given that everyone praises the sensor/sensor implementation, apparently this processing makes the sensor feel even better somehow


Or people are confusing light weight with responsiveness.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

The actual architectures of any controller I'm aware of (this includes the MCU in the FM) has no possible capability of "smoothing" in the traditional sense of the word. You can check the controllers datasheet and see this http://www.holtek.com/pdf/8bit_Flash_MCU/HT68FB5x0v130.pdf

Now obviously every MCU processes information differently. So processing does happen for various complex reasons that are actually beyond my knowledge since I'm not an IC engineer. But it's mostly due to various timing modules and oscillators within the controller.

Here is an example: I have an FM sample here with a cypress controller instead of our current holtek. Behavior varies slightly between these two samples not only at 500hz but also at 1000hz. For kicks and giggles I did this mousetester plotting just to see its visual representation of both controllers plots. The differences were not noticeable over a course of several plots at 500hz, at 1000 however they were. And on our Cartesian robot end point matches on a circle test were also off on the cypress.

We use the holtek for several reasons, one of which is the timer modules it has are more powerful. As for any processing the controller does, I'd have to ask our IC engineer but it's generally the same as most other controllers.

Thanks ,
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Or people are confusing light weight with responsiveness.


Not possible. I've used other light mice which were trash.


----------



## c0dy

Too bad, amazon.co.uk still hasn't it available







Was hoping to be able to use it this week


----------



## qsxcv

yes i believe, traditionally, smoothing is implemented in the sensor for the purpose of reducing jitter at stupidly high dpi levels which fortunately you guys have avoided

what's going on here looks like there is a (weighted?) moving-average filter being applied to the raw sensor data. unless you guys are coding the mcu firmware in assembly it's not hard to recognize this in the firmware source code. the consequences of this to perceived "sensor responsiveness" are unknown especially in light of the positive comments concerning the fm's tracking. however i think everyone agrees that our intuition tells us that this is not a good thing

as demonstrated above, in at least one logitech mice the only processing is to flip the y axis and to add together sensor data when polling is less than 1000hz

as for choice of microcontroller, i believe that any microcontroller that can
1. communicate via spi
2. communicate via usb
3. do the above with precise timing
4. do basic arithmetic on short integers
5. be implemented in a way that doesn't cause significant electrical interference with the sensor
will perform identically provided that the firmware has the same high-level logic


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The actual architectures of any controller I'm aware of (this includes the MCU in the FM) has no possible capability of "smoothing" in the traditional sense of the word. You can check the controllers datasheet and see this http://www.holtek.com/pdf/8bit_Flash_MCU/HT68FB5x0v130.pdf
> 
> Now obviously every MCU processes information differently. So processing does happen for various complex reasons that are actually beyond my knowledge since I'm not an IC engineer. But it's mostly due to various timing modules and oscillators within the controller.
> 
> Here is an example: I have an FM sample here with a cypress controller instead of our current holtek. Behavior varies slightly between these two samples not only at 500hz but also at 1000hz. For kicks and giggles I did this mousetester plotting just to see its visual representation of both controllers plots. The differences were not noticeable over a course of several plots at 500hz, at 1000 however they were. And on our Cartesian robot end point matches on a circle test were also off on the cypress.
> 
> We use the holtek for several reasons, one of which is the timer modules it has are more powerful. As for any processing the controller does, I'd have to ask our IC engineer but it's generally the same as most other controllers.
> 
> Thanks ,
> Jude












But lemme ask you, any ETA on selling the Finalmouse on any other place besides Amazon?
Because I don't really feel like paying 70usd of fees...


----------



## qsxcv

Jude, any comment about the variable sensor framerate? it seems to be a common thing in modern sensors.

other than power saving, which is kind of irrelevant for corded gaming mice, is there any disadvantage to fixing the framerate to the maximum possible or advantage to using a lower framerate for low speed motion?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yes i believe, traditionally, smoothing is implemented in the sensor for the purpose of reducing jitter at stupidly high dpi levels which fortunately you guys have avoided
> 
> what's going on here looks like there is a (weighted?) moving-average filter being applied to the raw sensor data. unless you guys are coding the mcu firmware in assembly it's not hard to recognize this in the firmware source code. the consequences of this to perceived "sensor responsiveness" are unknown especially in light of the positive comments concerning the fm's tracking. however i think everyone agrees that our intuition tells us that this is not a good thing
> 
> as demonstrated above, in at least one logitech mice the only processing is to flip the y axis and to add together sensor data when polling is less than 1000hz
> 
> as for choice of microcontroller, i believe that any microcontroller that can
> 1. communicate via spi
> 2. communicate via usb
> 3. do the above with precise timing
> 4. do basic arithmetic on short integers
> 5. be implemented in a way that doesn't cause significant electrical interference with the sensor
> will perform identically provided that the firmware has the same high-level logic


I'd have to disagree with you that anything unintended or bad is going on. Even on a cypress controller my scope measures different data coming in than going out. Additionally an MCU's firmware doesn't grant the chip some newfound ability to operate outside of its architecture. I think what you are noticing is some timing algorithm which doesn't effect the 1:1 nature of the data, and it could simply show the data differently.

It's dangerous to assume anything from mousetester in generale, seeing as how plots from two fm's with completely different controllers give me no real insight regarding performance.

This is why for us all our performance tests are done with a Cartesian. We specifically use an Epson Cartesian . And with this we do primarily two tests, a circle test and a linear acceleration test. A circle test basically allows us to look for various artifacts including smoothing. And a linear accel test lets you see malfunction speed and acceleration.

And this is basically our primary tool, because at the end of the day physical performance and how it is illustrated on the monitor is (in our opinion) the best way to find compatibilities and optimal IC designs/schematics. Hell, even changing the sensors power supply voltage gives us different data.. But the Cartesian lets us make sure it's a good thing vs a bad thing.

And there absolutely are "bad things" . For example at smaller movements the 3310,s framerate still isn't high enough to display all the movement we program in on the Cartesian. For this we have to wait on pixart to release next generation chipsets. And even then it's always smart to do physical experiments before theorizing something as better or worse.

Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> Jude, any comment about the variable sensor framerate? it seems to be a common thing in modern sensors.
> 
> other than power saving, which is kind of irrelevant for corded gaming mice, is there any disadvantage to fixing the framerate to the maximum possible or advantage to using a lower framerate for low speed motion?


Funny you mentioned this, I unknowingly brought it up in my post 1 minute ago









Yes long story short there are many issues here that can be resolved in future chipsets . Current chip design seems to be aall about capturing large image arrays. I think we have hit the threshold now for this, since I can not physically move my hand fast enough to hit any speed that would make this an issue.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *powerslave*
> 
> Now im really curious to see the result of qsxcv test on a am10 mouse ,that sensor is the one thatt give me the more "raw sensation"(sounds like something porno related), would be funny if it results the one with more post processing^^


I'd imagine the G100s will show smoothing as it has a filter for ripples sake. As for the G402 or G302 would be better off for myth busting.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *powerslave*
> 
> Now im really curious to see the result of qsxcv test on a am10 mouse ,that sensor is the one thatt give me the more "raw sensation"(sounds like something porno related), would be funny if it results the one with more post processing^^


I think a low frame rate sensor gives some people the impression of "raw" tracking.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> There are almost zero 1.6 servers left ._.
> 
> I'm going to have to resort to using CSGO to test mice eventually.


CS 1.6 has issues with mouse data anyway.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Well well well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderful information and testing you've been providing. I've been following and learning new stuff. Sure beats the feels method.


That's why I asked Rafa to do some more testing using his equipment. If I knew qsxcv had a similar setup I would have asked him instead. At least my "hate" comments about the 3366/Logitech sparked more testing.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> My method of testing is very poor unfortunately, as I move the mouse with my hand. And sometimes my Zowies seem to show no variance, sometimes they do, just like the Finalmouse does. But it's definitely very little variance, similar to all 3310, but worse than 3366.
> 
> Btw great work Qsxcv, we shared the same suspicion about the clean graphs but you actually did the science for it, very cool stuff!
> 
> it also shows that "feelings" are easily wrong, as many people felt the FinalMouse was the most "raw".
> It also shows that a processed cursor can apparently feel better than one without any processing


In this case, consistency feels better than other mice (to some owners).


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I'd have to disagree with you that anything unintended or bad is going on. Even on a cypress controller my scope measures different data coming in than going out. Additionally an MCU's firmware doesn't grant the chip some newfound ability to operate outside of its architecture.


you dont need any special architecture to add up integers.
Quote:


> I think what you are noticing is some timing algorithm which doesn't effect the 1:1 nature of the data, and it could simply show the data differently.


have you checked the firmware source to see what it's actually doing to the numbers it reads from the spi bus?

it's not a big deal which mcu is used, its the coding of the firmware which determines whether numbers are simply added or buffered and averaged with previous values. this isn't an analog issue with many fudge factors. the fact that the fluctuations of the numbers going out of the mcu are much less than what is expected from code with minimal processing is a very strong indication that there is some weighted averaging between the most recent numbers from the sensor and previous numbers. if that is considered "simply showing ghe data differently" well whatever but IMO it is better to not have any averaging process


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> you dont need any special architecture to add up integers.
> have you checked the firmware source to see what it's actually doing to the numbers it reads from the spi bus?
> 
> it's not a big deal which mcu is used, its the coding of the firmware which determines whether numbers are simply added or buffered and averaged with previous values. this isn't an analog issue with many fudge factors. the fact that the fluctuations of the numbers going out of the mcu are much less than what is expected from code with minimal processing is a very strong indication that there is some weighted averaging between the most recent numbers from the sensor and previous numbers. if that is considered "simply showing ghe data differently" well whatever but IMO it is better to not have any averaging process


Yes but the thing is, the firmware does absolutely no such thing. In fact we do no manipulation of the controllers firmware. Same thing for the cypress controller, this was measured with its stock firmware. During no point in the pipeline is there any low level architecture or logic that would "round" or "average numbers". This type of logic would create noticeable impurities in the tracking that you would feel immediately.

-Jude


----------



## povohat

It is really refreshing to see a company representative engage on a technical level on this forum.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Yes but the thing is, the firmware does absolutely no such thing. In fact we do no manipulation of the controllers firmware. Same thing for the cypress controller, this was measured with its stock firmware. During no point in the pipeline is there any low level architecture or logic that would "round" or "average numbers". This type of logic would create noticeable impurities in the tracking that you would feel immediately.
> 
> -Jude


that's surprising. i'd imagine you guys did at least some modification to the firmware to select the available dpis.

how do you know the stock firmware doesnt do averaging?

the bottom line is that for at least one logitech mice, what comes out of the mcu is exactly what goes in. if the usb polling is reduced to 500hz, the mcu reads motion burst data from the sensor twice in each polling period. the number that is sent over usb is simply the sum of the data from those two motion burst reads. this is the most straightforward approach and i see absolutely no issues with it.

for the finalmouse this is not the case.

forget about mousetester, forget about using robots to benchmark performance. the issue at hand is about whether the mcu preserves the fidelity of the *numbers* the sensor sends it.


----------



## Axaion

It is really refreshing to see any company rep not talk PR out of every .. hole possible

Makes me want to at least try the mouse when i can get it here in denmark


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> that's surprising. i'd imagine you guys did at least some modification to the firmware to select the available dpis.
> 
> how do you know the stock firmware doesnt do averaging?
> 
> the bottom line is that for at least one logitech mice, what comes out of the mcu is exactly what goes in. if the usb polling is reduced to 500hz, the mcu reads motion burst data from the sensor twice in each polling period. the number that is sent over usb is simply the sum of the data from those two motion burst reads. this is the most straightforward approach and i see absolutely no issues with it.
> 
> for the finalmouse this is not the case.
> 
> forget about mousetester, forget about using robots to benchmark performance. the issue at hand is about whether the mcu preserves the fidelity of the *numbers* the sensor sends it.


Have you done the same tests with the WMO?

I have a hypothesis but I'll refrain from saying anything till I've tested the FM SE.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> that's surprising. i'd imagine you guys did at least some modification to the firmware to select the available dpis.
> 
> how do you know the stock firmware doesnt do averaging?
> 
> the bottom line is that for at least one logitech mice, what comes out of the mcu is exactly what goes in. if the usb polling is reduced to 500hz, the mcu reads motion burst data from the sensor twice in each polling period. the number that is sent over usb is simply the sum of the data from those two motion burst reads. this is the most straightforward approach and i see absolutely no issues with it.
> 
> for the finalmouse this is not the case.
> 
> forget about mousetester, forget about using robots to benchmark performance. the issue at hand is about whether the mcu preserves the fidelity of the *numbers* the sensor sends it.


Of course, but the instruction sets were not touched at all (only thing i remember happening was a lot of cleanup of clutter), why would we want to mess with how the data is manipulated? And I know this does not happen in the instruction set because I am looking at the firmware in front of me right now









I suspect differences in output data simply have to do with the hardware itself. With the mouse you mentioned for example, we are talking about a 32 bit mcu with a completely different architecture.

With the only other sample available to me which is a cypress that shows the same data offset.

Also other possibilities include the fact that we are a little nontraditional with the fact that we do not connect the MCU via the VDDIO.

I'll have to ask our IC guy what causes data discrepancy at different points in the pipeline. This is beyond me at this point, but I find it very intriguing as you can see







Gonna have to step out for today, enjoyed the discussion.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

As I was stepping out of the office I realized that this could simply be the controllers noise immunity. Many controllers have built in noise immunity that helps reduce electrical noise and irregularities as well as provide ESD defense.

In fact im now 99% sure this is what you are seeing









Ok now i really have to go

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## TriviumKM

Was waiting on the ambi mouse from Finalmouse, but this type of engagement from a rep makes me want to purchase the FM just to support even though i know i won't like the shape.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Have you done the same tests with the WMO?


from what i know mlt04 is a soc which means there isn't a separate sensor and mcu
maybe i could find something interesting from poking around but it would really not be easy as there's no public datasheet and its design and everything is probably completely different from that of avago/pixart sensors
Quote:


> I have a hypothesis but I'll refrain from saying anything till I've tested the FM SE.


i do as well but i don't want to be spreading potentially false rumors








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Of course, but the instruction sets were not touched at all (only thing i remember happening was a lot of cleanup of clutter), why would we want to mess with how the data is manipulated? And I know this does not happen in the instruction set because I am looking at the firmware in front of me right now


and you can see the spot where the y axis values are inverted right?
Quote:


> I suspect differences in output data simply have to do with the hardware itself. With the mouse you mentioned for example, we are talking about a 32 bit mcu with a completely different architecture.


the only way this would make any sense is if the hardware implementation of the usb connection for whatever reason processes mouse motion data
Quote:


> Also other possibilities include the fact that we are a little nontraditional with the fact that we do not connect the MCU via the VDDIO.


shouldn't affect arithmetic...
Quote:


> I'll have to ask our IC guy what causes data discrepancy at different points in the pipeline. This is beyond me at this point, but I find it very intriguing as you can see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gonna have to step out for today, enjoyed the discussion.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


well thanks for your patience. hopefully everyone will have a better understanding of this stuff after all of this. I'll try to figure out tonight what exactly is happening.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> As I was stepping out of the office I realized that this could simply be the controllers noise immunity. Many controllers have built in noise immunity that helps reduce electrical noise and irregularities as well as provide ESD defense.
> 
> In fact im now 99% sure this is what you are seeing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok now i really have to go
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


electrical noise, or filtering electrical noise, is not the thing that changes this set of numbers


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



66 69
71 75
64 69
68 74
68 73
62 68
65 72
60 67
60 65
64 69
59 64


to this


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



68 71
70 73
67 71
67 73
68 73
65 70
65 71
62 69
61 67
63 68
61 66



if the electrical noise is enough to corrupt data there's no reason it corrupts only the least significant bits.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> electrical noise, or filtering electrical noise, is not the thing that changes this set of numbers
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 66 69
> 71 75
> 64 69
> 68 74
> 68 73
> 62 68
> 65 72
> 60 67
> 60 65
> 64 69
> 59 64
> 
> 
> to this
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 68 71
> 70 73
> 67 71
> 67 73
> 68 73
> 65 70
> 65 71
> 62 69
> 61 67
> 63 68
> 61 66
> 
> 
> 
> if the electrical noise is enough to corrupt data there's no reason it corrupts only the least significant bits.


Its not actually electrical noise, its the interrupt register that is applying this logic. Specifically registers INTC0~INTC2. It has the option to either interrupt rising peaks, falling peaks, both , or be disabled. The registers are turned to interrupt both rises and falls on the FM.

And with this little information I gave out tomorrow I will be out of a job


----------



## lntricate

I had an outstanding support email with FinalMouse for almost 3 months now.

In the email they've promised a replacement and free international shipping for a faulty mouse that I've received (TWICE i've received a faulty product) when the refresh version is out.

It's been a week since the refresh is out, I've bumped the email twice and they have not responded.

I might file this against Amazon, I don't know how the support ticket works but they've always responded within 1-2 days and it's been a week and 2 bumps and they still don't have any word regarding my replacement.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lntricate*
> 
> I had an outstanding support email with FinalMouse for almost 3 months now.
> 
> In the email they've promised a replacement and free international shipping for a faulty mouse that I've received (TWICE i've received a faulty product) when the refresh version is out.
> 
> It's been a week since the refresh is out, I've bumped the email twice and they have not responded.
> 
> I might file this against Amazon, I don't know how the support ticket works but they've always responded within 1-2 days and it's been a week and 2 bumps and they still don't have any word regarding my replacement.


Hey Intricate,

Sorry to hear this. At the moment the revised version still is not available for international customers outside of North America. We are hoping this availability happens in the next few days at which point you will receive an RMA replacement like all North American customers.

I'll make sure a support agent responds to you as well and keeps you updated .

And apologies for all the delays with European availability we ran into a couple logistics holdups.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## lntricate

Thank you for that.


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> And apologies for all the delays with European availability we ran into a couple logistics holdups.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Oh no







So I definitly won't be able to get one this week









Do you know anything about how much longer it might take?

I'd like to throw my money at you


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> Oh no
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I definitly won't be able to get one this week
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know anything about how much longer it might take?
> 
> I'd like to throw my money at you


Here is what I know. Finalmouse units are sitting in the UK as we speak. There are delays with customs however. As soon as this clears the units will be available in less than 24 hours. So there is still a chance availability happens this week.

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## qsxcv

sooo

it's basically an exponential moving average filter with error diffusion

if s_i is the series of raw sensor motion data, and u_i is the series of outputted usb motion data
u_i = 0.5 * (s_i + u_{i-1})

in english, basically every outputted value is the average of the latest raw data from the sensor and the previous output.

proof:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TsYZNvS9fZqOg6Y6_BQPqyYiA4ZB0qN_yeqEDv-PcEM/edit#gid=1035487214

columns Q,R are what a minimally processing mcu would output (i.e. nothing but addition)
columns T,U are just Q,R with the above filter applied
columns W,X are the actual data received by the computer
and
compare columns T,U with columns W,X. it's off by 1 in a few cases because I didn't implement error diffusion yet, but it proves the point.

k i can't/am too lazy to figure out how to manually implement error diffusion so make the data match exactly. but i've gotten (see column AA) pretty close so whatever. actually the specific way error diffusion is implemented is important with regards to responsiveness to small 1-pixel movements.

anyway
i think that's pretty solid evidence that somewhere in the mcu pipeline the above filter is being appled. probably in the firmware or a usb library, very very unlikely in the hardware.

the impacts of this filter on perceived tracking are most likely minimal if the way error diffusion is done doesn't mess up single-pixels motion (which appears to be the case as the fm feels pretty normal for slow movements). as it is a moving average filter the outputted data is smoother. that and the fact that the fm's 3310 generally tracks well are why the plots in mousetester appear so smooth. as for responsiveness, it's probably similar to ~2ms of additional input lag. actually i'm not sure exactly how to evaluate that. maybe the phase shift for oscillatory motion?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *powerslave*
> 
> Now im really curious to see the result of qsxcv test on a am10 mouse ,that sensor is the one thatt give me the more "raw sensation"(sounds like something porno related), would be funny if it results the one with more post processing^^


andddddd delivered.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TsYZNvS9fZqOg6Y6_BQPqyYiA4ZB0qN_yeqEDv-PcEM/edit#gid=698992237

look the g100s's mcu can add up numbers properly too!









anyway this analysis says nothing about whether the sensor itself implements smoothing, only how the mcu processes the sensor's data.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> andddddd delivered.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TsYZNvS9fZqOg6Y6_BQPqyYiA4ZB0qN_yeqEDv-PcEM/edit#gid=698992237
> 
> look the g100s's mcu can add up numbers properly too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anyway this analysis says nothing about whether the sensor itself implements smoothing, only how the mcu processes the sensor's data.


"You need permission"

you might want to set permission to public

CPate states it have 4 frame smoothing, i guess it did in sensor level?


----------



## qsxcv

wups fixed


----------



## benllok

Spoiler: Quote: qsxcv!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> sooo
> 
> it's basically an exponential moving average filter with error diffusion
> 
> if s_i is the series of raw sensor motion data, and u_i is the series of outputted usb motion data
> u_i = 0.5 * (s_i + u_{i-1})
> 
> in english, basically every outputted value is the average of the latest raw data from the sensor and the previous output.
> 
> proof:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TsYZNvS9fZqOg6Y6_BQPqyYiA4ZB0qN_yeqEDv-PcEM/edit#gid=1035487214
> 
> columns Q,R are what a minimally processing mcu would output (i.e. nothing but addition)
> columns T,U are just Q,R with the above filter applied
> columns W,X are the actual data received by the computer
> and
> compare columns T,U with columns W,X. it's off by 1 in a few cases because I didn't implement error diffusion yet, but it proves the point.
> 
> k i can't/am too lazy to figure out how to manually implement error diffusion so make the data match exactly. but i've gotten (see column AA) pretty close so whatever. actually the specific way error diffusion is implemented is important with regards to responsiveness to small 1-pixel movements.
> 
> anyway
> i think that's pretty solid evidence that somewhere in the mcu pipeline the above filter is being appled. probably in the firmware or a usb library, very very unlikely in the hardware.
> 
> the impacts of this filter on perceived tracking are most likely minimal if the way error diffusion is done doesn't mess up single-pixels motion (which appears to be the case as the fm feels pretty normal for slow movements). as it is a moving average filter the outputted data is smoother. that and the fact that the fm's 3310 generally tracks well are why the plots in mousetester appear so smooth. as for responsiveness, it's probably similar to ~2ms of additional input lag. actually i'm not sure exactly how to evaluate that. maybe the phase shift for oscillatory motion?






I'm not sure what to think about what you just proved. Something tells me it's not a bad thing according to those comments from people that actually have tried it and tested ingame, so are we in front of a very well implemented coding that makes mouse movement feel better?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what to think about what you just proved. Something tells me it's not a bad thing according to those comments from people that actually have tried it and tested ingame, so are we in front of a very well implemented coding that makes mouse movement feel better?


qsxvc have proved the finalmouse have post processing on MCU level while logitech mouses doesn't, the leads two possible outcome:

1. People are easily cheated by preconception
2. Post processing is actually good in performance


----------



## qsxcv

imo i'd be more comfortable not having this processing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> very well implemented coding


my gut feeling is that things aren't as clean as they can be. for instance the timing of every other motion burst read has +-10us of jitter whereas the same on the g303 is <1us. plus the weird cadence which apparently only occurs when the mouse is moving


----------



## Trull

How do you know so much about this stuff?







Electrical engineering, maybe?

Nice findings, btw. Well done.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> How do you know so much about this stuff?


you get one of these
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ds1054z/
you stick some wires into a mouse
and then you measure and compare to things in the public pixart/avago datasheets
and then you think for a bit








i do physics actually and in undergrad we did have a stupid lab class where we used scopes and really basic electronics

btw i feel that i'm mentioning logitech too much and saying too many good things about them, but it's just that the g303, g100s, and ninox aurora are the only mouse that i have with me, and i'm 95% sure the ninox has similar mcu processing/filtering plus even worse timing for motion burst reads. i also have an evga x5 but its sensor is surface-mounted and so doesn't have pins which i can tie wires to easily

actually... speaking of the aurora... it also has a holtek mcu so maybe the filtering is related to holtek. maybe a usb library or example code or something has this "feature". i don't really know; i'll wait for Jude to respond to see if they can trace the origin of this.

if it is something that can be changed in software (which i strongly believe it is), hopefully the fm guys can maybe release an alternative firmware so that people can compare. (or release a firmware update that does nothing as a placebo control DDD)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> CPate states it have 4 frame smoothing, i guess it did in sensor level?


link to where he said that? all i've heard is that g302 and g402 have <1ms smoothing above 2000dpi

well i found this but idk where the source is
http://www.overclock.net/t/1513987/logitech-g302-soon/870#post_23194087


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> you get one of these
> http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ds1054z/
> you stick some wires into a mouse
> and then you measure and compare to things in the public pixart/avago datasheets
> and then you think for a bit












Did you get the money for the oscilloscope just by thinking, too?


----------



## qsxcv

given that i do theory now... i guess yes?
sad thing is that i've spend about the same amount on different mice over the past year. at least with the scope i can do a lot of other things


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I think a low frame rate sensor gives some people the impression of "raw" tracking.


Pretty sure people on this forum are mislead about this. People who are spreading their opinion as definitive facts ^^
I remember when I got my g402, without having checked the specs etc I felt that the sensor was really responsive.
However, after having played around with the 3366 in the g303 I realize that it was more responsive, but felt in different ways. One of the ways to achieve a smoother feel on the lower frame rate, is to apply smoothing. So, when you play with the 3366, some people might be confused about the fact that it has higher frame rates, thinking it isn't as responsive when in actual fact it is. Responsiveness can be, like woll3 said, affected and amplified by many small details, such as good feet on the mouse, pc configuration, weight of the mouse, lod etc.

That's my 0.02$ anyways. Everything is IMO.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> some people might be confused about the fact that it has higher frame rates, thinking it isn't as responsive when in actual fact it is


that's a plausible idea but [email protected] is extremely smooth and responsive, and i think that is universally agreed upon


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well i found this but idk where the source is
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1513987/logitech-g302-soon/870#post_23194087


There
http://www.overclock.net/t/1499731/after-some-digging-around-web-the-logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-mouse/350#post_22639253
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Same sensor with new settings.
> 
> CPI steps are 240-4000 in steps of 80 - so you can get native 400/800/1600/etc.
> 
> CPI range was extended, but there is still zero smoothing at 2000 CPI and below. 2080 CPI and above implement 4 frames (<1ms) of smoothing in order to mitigate ripple. Sensors with smoothing levels that people find problematic are typically around 4-7ms.


----------



## qsxcv

not sure what that says about g100s though...
Quote:


> there is still zero smoothing at 2000 CPI and below


does "still" mean that there wasn't smoothing below 2000cpi for g100s?


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> not sure what that says about g100s though...
> does "still" mean that there wasn't smoothing below 2000cpi for g100s?


oops, I got carried away, here
http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/510#post_22730430
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> There is <1ms of smoothing at CPI steps from 2080-4000. This is the same amount of smoothing present across all CPI steps in G100s. There is 0 smoothing at 2000 CPI and below, which (along with 1ms report rate vs 2ms) is an improvement vs the G100s sensor parameters.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> CPate states it have 4 frame smoothing, i guess it did in sensor level?


Yup.

Smoothing via MCU would be horrible / most likely noticeable. It's better to do it on the sensor at a certain point where the noise is too high.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> qsxvc have proved the finalmouse have post processing on MCU level while logitech mouses doesn't, the leads two possible outcome:
> 
> 1. *People are easily cheated by preconception
> *2. Post processing is actually good in performance


Most likely by perspective.


----------



## qsxcv

well nobody has noticed it in fm before


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what to think about what you just proved. Something tells me it's not a bad thing according to those comments from people that actually have tried it and tested ingame, so are we in front of a very well implemented coding that makes mouse movement feel better?


Hello ,

Like I said before this really isn't about a coding implementation. This is an MCU register that certain hardware controllers possess that does edge interrupts. Smt controllers don't have it, cypress does, holtek does. And disabling these registers does nothing noticeable , in fact the way interrupt registers make adjustments to the peaks and valleys is so subtle we wouldn't be able to physically test and find it with anything we posses.

At best the tracking data becomes marginally cleaner at higher tracking speeds. At worst this eats up a couple lines of operation.

I turned off all noise control registers in the cypress and holtek samples to plot some points on your guys' mousetester software, since I believe that's why this came up. The way the interrupt registers function and their algorithms work... It's hard for me to even see any visual differences in the plot. Maybe after several plots there is slightly more deviation at certain points? It is definitely hard to notice.

There are far more differences that are more noticeable between the actual controller hardware. Because you are going through different speeds of internal clocks, clock cycle methods, oscillators. Sometimes too heavy of an MCU will create latency that can be tested for.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well nobody has noticed it in fm before


I haven't bought a FinalMouse because of the MCU/coding and the price asked for the components used.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/460_20#post_23467660
http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/480_20#post_23473066
http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1260_20#post_23960761
http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1260_20#post_23963613


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello ,
> 
> Like I said before this really isn't about a coding implementation. This is an MCU register that certain hardware controllers possess that does edge interrupts. Smt controllers don't have it, cypress does, holtek does. And disabling these registers does nothing noticeable , in fact the way interrupt registers make adjustments to the peaks and valleys is so subtle we wouldn't be able to physically test and find it with anything we posses.
> 
> At best the tracking data becomes marginally cleaner at higher tracking speeds. At worst this eats up a couple lines of operation.
> 
> I turned off all noise control registers in the cypress and holtek samples to plot some points on your guys' mousetester software, since I believe that's why this came up. The way the interrupt registers function and their algorithms work... It's hard for me to even see any visual differences in the plot. Maybe after several plots there is slightly more deviation at certain points? It is definitely hard to notice.
> 
> There are far more differences that are more noticeable between the actual controller hardware. Because you are going through different speeds of internal clocks, clock cycle methods, oscillators. Sometimes too heavy of an MCU will create latency that can be tested for.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


okay i'm sorry if i come off as rude but this is really frustrating.
can you imagine if i brought up this issue and you keep telling me something like "it's because the usb connector is gold plated"? that's how i've felt since the beginning of the conversation

this has nothing whatsoever to do with noise control, interrupt register settings, whatever. that is beyond obvious if you understand what those things are and understand what the issue at hand is. there's nothing whatsoever in the datasheet that resembles the operation i described. why would the usb hardware in the the mcu perform this operation? does the hardware specifically know that it's a mouse and to apply a moving average filter to the motion data?

go and look through the firmware source again more carefully and i guarantee you that you'll find the moving average algorithm somewhere if you trace the flow of the logic from the spi data register to the usb data register. and check the source of any libraries or wrappers you guys are using.

i cannot believe that it's not a software issue unless you either show me the relevant parts of the firmware source or show me either in the datasheet or elsewhere that the hardware does a moving average filter to the data.

and for the last time forget about mousetester for a second. yes the moving average filter shows up in mousetester plots in certain features (reduced fluctuations, dots being clumped into diagonal lines), but if you want to debug/figure out this issue you should be looking at the raw spi data the way i was. use a scope with spi decoding, use a bus pirate, use another mcu to sniff the data, use whatever but don't just look at what happens to mousetester plots when you do x to register y.

if you think this isn't a significant issue with regards to tracking, then whatever


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> okay i'm sorry if i come off as rude but this is really frustrating.
> can you imagine if i brought up this issue and you keep telling me something like "it's because the usb connector is gold plated"? that's how i've felt since the beginning of the conversation
> 
> this has nothing whatsoever to do with noise control, interrupt register settings, whatever. that is beyond obvious if you understand what those things are and understand what the issue at hand is. there's nothing whatsoever in the datasheet that resembles the operation i described. why would the usb hardware in the the mcu perform this operation? does the hardware specifically know that it's a mouse and to apply a moving average filter to the motion data?
> 
> go and look through the firmware source again more carefully and i guarantee you that you'll find the moving average algorithm somewhere if you trace the flow of the logic from the spi data register to the usb data register. and check the source of any libraries or wrappers you guys are using.
> 
> i cannot believe that it's not a software issue unless you either show me the relevant parts of the firmware source or show me either in the datasheet or elsewhere that the hardware does a moving average filter to the data.
> 
> and for the last time forget about mousetester for a second. yes the moving average filter shows up in mousetester plots in certain features (reduced fluctuations, dots being clumped into diagonal lines), but if you want to debug/figure out this issue you should be looking at the raw spi data the way i was. use a scope with spi decoding, use a bus pirate, use another mcu to sniff the data, use whatever but don't just look at what happens to mousetester plots when you do x to register y.
> 
> if you think this isn't a significant issue with regards to tracking, then whatever


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> you get one of these
> http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ds1054z/
> you stick some wires into a mouse
> and then you measure and compare to things in the public pixart/avago datasheets
> and then you think for a bit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i do physics actually and in undergrad we did have a stupid lab class where we used scopes and really basic electronics
> 
> btw i feel that i'm mentioning logitech too much and saying too many good things about them, but it's just that the g303, g100s, and ninox aurora are the only mouse that i have with me, and i'm 95% sure the ninox has similar mcu processing/filtering plus even worse timing for motion burst reads. i also have an evga x5 but i'll wait for Jude to respond to see if they can trace the origin of this.
> 
> if it is something that can be changed in software (which i strongly believe it is), hopefully the fm guys can maybe release an alternative firmware so that people can compare. (or release a firmware update that does nothing as a placebo control DDD)
> link to where he said that? all i've heard is that g302 and g402 have <1ms smoothing above 2000dpi
> 
> well i found this but idk where the source is
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1513987/logitech-g302-soon/870#post_23194087


Hey qxcsv,

I think you are misunderstanding me. These interrupt registers are part of the "software" they are in the firmware just like you said.

Nothing you are saying is wrong except for there seems to be a misconception this is coded in by us, where it's in fact just an on or off switch in the firmware. And also it's not a moving average, it's more of a noise control. It stops peaks and valleys in the data essentially.

It's for rare occurances where electrical noise would create inconsistencies at the server level.

If you look at my previous post from yesterday I even mentioned where this is located in the firmware.

Apologies if it sounded like I was disagreeing with you, I just want to make sure everything is coming across accurately.

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Sorry sensor not server *


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Not to mention that Sensor clock is 2khz, i dont see the problem there.


from where do you get this secret knowledge?

well it matches what i found with scope attached to led pins
2.08khz at rest and for slow movement
http://i.imgur.com/v7ngz9c.png
4.16khz for not-so-slow movement
http://i.imgur.com/9NISXnP.png


----------



## Dyseus

Just received the new summer edition as a replacement for my mouse that failed in April. Works great. I was running a Zowie FK1 since the Finalmouse sensor died, and I do like having the shape/light buttons/better scrolling on the finalmouse back.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Also qxcsv,

The algorithm that is used is a double exponential one from the looks of it. Maybe triple exponential.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Nothing you are saying is wrong except for there seems to be a misconception this is coded in by us, where it's in fact just an on or off switch in the firmware.


doesn't matter who it's coded by. your mouse has it and i'm 99% sure it can be removed by you guys
Quote:


> And also it's not a moving average, it's more of a noise control.


well then how do you explain that when i apply a moving average filter to the raw data from my scope, i get almost the exact numbers (up to +- 1 due to quantization error diffusion) that the computer receives via usb?

it doesn't matter what the processing's intentions are, whether it's noise control or smoothing or trolling people like myself who care too much about stuff that doesnt matter. the fact is that a moving average filter is being applied.

Quote:


> If you look at my previous post from yesterday I even mentioned where this is located in the firmware.


so did you find it in the firmware? i'll help you out here, it looks something like this but a little more elaborate with error diffusion

Code:



Code:


//1st  motion burst read
spi_x = 3rd_and_4th_bytes_from_spi_read
spi_y = 5th_and_6th_bytes_from_spi_read
//usb interrupt called here but no motion reported because 500hz report rate so every other usb poll is skipped
//2nd motion burst read
spi_x += 3rd_and_4th_bytes_from_spi_read
spi_y += 5th_and_6th_bytes_from_spi_read
//send it over usb
usb_x = (spi_x + previous_usb_x)/2
usb_y = (-spi_y + previous_usb_y)/2
//usb interrupt gets called around here, usb_x, usb_y are transmitted
previous_usb_x = usb_x
previous_usb_y = usb_y


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> doesn't matter who it's coded by. your mouse has it and i'm 99% sure it can be removed by you guys
> well then how do you explain that when i apply a moving average filter to the raw data from my scope, i get almost the exact numbers (up to +- 1 due to quantization error diffusion) that the computer receives via usb?
> 
> it doesn't matter what the processing's intentions are, whether it's noise control or smoothing or trolling people like myself who care too much about stuff that doesnt matter. the fact is that a moving average filter is being applied.
> so did you find it in the firmware? i'll help you out here, it looks something like this but a little more elaborate with error diffusion
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> //1st  motion burst read
> spi_x = 3rd_and_4th_bytes_from_spi_read
> spi_y = 5th_and_6th_bytes_from_spi_read
> //usb interrupt called here but no motion reported because 500hz report rate so every other usb poll is skipped
> //2nd motion burst read
> spi_x += 3rd_and_4th_bytes_from_spi_read
> spi_y += 5th_and_6th_bytes_from_spi_read
> //send it over usb
> usb_x = (spi_x + previous_usb_x)/2
> usb_y = (-spi_y + previous_usb_y)/2
> //usb interrupt gets called around here, usb_x, usb_y are transmitted
> previous_usb_x = usb_x
> previous_usb_y = usb_y


Yes if you read my post from earlier I mentioned how I was able to turn it off in the firmware









And it's not a moving average it's a double exponential or triple exponential algorithm.

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## qsxcv

ignoring the fact that we're dealing with integers, this moving average is equivalent to an exponential weighted average. i'm not sure where you're getting "double" or "triple" from but it's probably that you saw some more terms which are related to the error diffusion/correction/whatever which ensures that there's no systematic bias related to rounding or integer division

is it possible to make a firmware flasher that flips this off?


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> doesn't matter who it's coded by. your mouse has it and i'm 99% sure it can be removed by you guys
> well then how do you explain that when i apply a moving average filter to the raw data from my scope, i get almost the exact numbers (up to +- 1 due to quantization error diffusion) that the computer receives via usb?
> 
> it doesn't matter what the processing's intentions are, whether it's noise control or smoothing or trolling people like myself who care too much about stuff that doesnt matter. the fact is that a moving average filter is being applied.
> so did you find it in the firmware? i'll help you out here, it looks something like this but a little more elaborate with error diffusion
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> //1st  motion burst read
> spi_x = 3rd_and_4th_bytes_from_spi_read
> spi_y = 5th_and_6th_bytes_from_spi_read
> //usb interrupt called here but no motion reported because 500hz report rate so every other usb poll is skipped
> //2nd motion burst read
> spi_x += 3rd_and_4th_bytes_from_spi_read
> spi_y += 5th_and_6th_bytes_from_spi_read
> //send it over usb
> usb_x = (spi_x + previous_usb_x)/2
> usb_y = (-spi_y + previous_usb_y)/2
> //usb interrupt gets called around here, usb_x, usb_y are transmitted
> previous_usb_x = usb_x
> previous_usb_y = usb_y


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Yes if you read my post from earlier I mentioned how I was able to turn it off in the firmware
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it's not a moving average it's a double exponential or triple exponential algorithm.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


I think the perception of the community is that you don't want the mouse doing any smoothing / data manipulation. As you have now noted this is controllable via firmware, what is the reason FinalMouse chose to leave this smoothing option in place?


----------



## milkbreak

Let's turn it off and have the input go mad over every pube you have on your mousepad. That'll be fun


----------



## mikesn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *milkbreak*
> 
> Let's turn it off and have the input go mad over every pube you have on your mousepad. That'll be fun


Except I don't think that's the outcome of turning it off. Based on what he's saying, the g303 he tested does NOT display this behavior, i.e. actually is "raw" in the way people were assuming the Finalmouse was.

I think the long and short here is that what's being admitted is that there is firmware level post processing being done that makes claims of this being "raw" some degree of misleading. I think that's the point. Finalmouse may think it has a net benefit in terms of effective sensor implementation, but it does beg the question of why Logitech's g303 (3366) firmware seems to do just fine without this being done, assuming the facts have been stated correctly here. I am honestly curious about the response.


----------



## mikesn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Yes but the thing is, the firmware does absolutely no such thing. In fact we do no manipulation of the controllers firmware. Same thing for the cypress controller, this was measured with its stock firmware. During no point in the pipeline is there any low level architecture or logic that would "round" or "average numbers". This type of logic would create noticeable impurities in the tracking that you would feel immediately.
> 
> -Jude


Also, how did we start from here, basically a denial of any firmware level post processing being done averaging mouse data movement, to Jude now basically saying "oh yah that's in the firmware but we don't really think it makes a meaningful difference." I guess the idea is that they didn't put it there themselves? If they have control over it then it certainly does beg the question of why they left it there, though, if "raw" implementation is the stated goal, particularly considering that other mice really do appear to work that way.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> Binned the stock ones a while back, and potato pictures incoming:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Is it me or did they move the sensor position a bit more forward from the last iteration?


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Is it me or did they move the sensor position a bit more forward from the last iteration?


This is the original model incase you thought it was the summer edition btw


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *milkbreak*
> 
> Let's turn it off and have the input go mad over every pube you have on your mousepad. That'll be fun


no that wouldnt happen and if it did the filtering doesnt help much (reduces maximum amplitude of a spike by 50%....)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mikesn*
> 
> Except I don't think that's the outcome of turning it off. Based on what he's saying, the g303 he tested does NOT display this behavior, i.e. actually is "raw" in the way people were assuming the Finalmouse was.
> 
> I think the long and short here is that what's being admitted is that there is firmware level post processing being done that makes claims of this being "raw" some degree of misleading. I think that's the point. Finalmouse may think it has a net benefit in terms of effective sensor implementation, but it does beg the question of why Logitech's g303 (3366) firmware seems to do just fine without this being done, assuming the facts have been stated correctly here. I am honestly curious about the response.


good summary

its not just the g303. g100s has no mcu level processing either, and i'd like to believe that the same is true for many other mice


----------



## Nilizum

yep it's just me /derp


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no that wouldnt happen and if it did the filtering doesnt help much (reduces maximum amplitude of a spike by 50%....)
> good summary


Hello,

I think these are very valid points. MCU level high and low edge reduction is very subtle.

I agree that by turning it off you are more accurately represented by the term "raw". Just by the nature of the word and it's definition.

Does this mean I am going to go sing songs around the halls here on how this register in the MCU should be disabled? No, more than likely not. It seems that this algorithm within the MCU is fairly trivial one way or another, and in best case scenarios helps tighten up data in the pipeline .

Does it mean the term "raw" should be thrown around with more caution? Perhaps, I think that's more subjective than anything else. But I definitely understand where you are coming from . And I definitely love the engagement at this level, especially during such a lull in development









Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## qsxcv

well i believe most of the preference for "rawness" stems from the days where mcu dpi interpolation and heavy amounts of smoothing were more common

it's a 2ms effect and definitely not as big of a deal as most people here think. still personally i would like to have it off because it really isnt necessary and i think the fm's 3310's tracking is already pretty smooth even without the filtering

anyway up to you guys to decide.

next topic:
back to the issue of sensor framerate: why does the fm have dynamic framerate? seems to be a common thing for modern mice to have 3/4 framerates depending on the speed of motion.

is there any disadvantage to using the maximum framerate at all times?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> is it possible to make a firmware flasher that flips this off?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I think the perception of the community is that you don't want the mouse doing any smoothing / data manipulation. As you have now noted this is controllable via firmware, what is the reason FinalMouse chose to leave this smoothing option in place?


Because it smooths out the Mouse Tester results and changes the perception of consistency for their mouse.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well i believe most of the preference for "rawness" stems from the days where mcu dpi interpolation and heavy amounts of smoothing were more common
> 
> it's a 2ms effect and definitely not as big of a deal as most people here think. still personally i would like to have it off because it really isnt necessary and i think the fm's 3310's tracking is already pretty smooth even without the filtering
> 
> anyway up to you guys to decide.
> 
> next topic:
> back to the issue of sensor framerate: why does the fm have dynamic framerate? seems to be a common thing for modern mice to have 3/4 framerates depending on the speed of motion.
> 
> is there any disadvantage to using the maximum framerate at all times?


You definitely can't claim the FinalMouse implementation to be "raw" and "more raw" than the 3366. There is no way the 3310 is better than the 3366 hardware wise. I have mentioned this to MaximilianKohler.

If it was only 2ms of additional processing time would it be noticeable at 1000Hz? Isn't this MCU capable of 1000Hz?

I think at 12000 FPS there wouldn't be any issues. It might remove the opportunity to use certain features.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Because it smooths out the Mouse Tester results and changes the perception of the consistency for their mouse.


I fully understand the impact on MouseTester graphs, I was really hoping for an answer from the source. I have a feeling the reality is more along the lines of:

- They had no idea the firmware on the MCU was doing this until now.
or
- They have run tests under enabled/disabled scenarios and this minor smoothing actually proves beneficial.
or
- They have totally no clue, made a hip single page website, paid some OEM to make a mouse with a 3310 sensor, and now swim in piles of money while hanging out on enthusiast forums - because gaming mice are such a lucrative business.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I fully understand the impact on MouseTester graphs, I was really hoping for an answer from the source. I have a feeling the reality is more along the lines of:
> 
> - They had no idea the firmware on the MCU was doing this until now.
> or
> - They have run tests under enabled/disabled scenarios and this minor smoothing actually proves beneficial.
> or
> - They have totally no clue, made a hip single page website, paid some OEM to make a mouse with a 3310 sensor, and now swim in piles of money while hanging out on enthusiast forums - because gaming mice are such a lucrative business.


Doesn't the Ninox Aurora have the same MCU? Isn't that implementation very erratic? Maybe they didn't use that code.


----------



## qsxcv

aurora also uses holtek but i dont think its the same one
and its firmware also has some sort of processing
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Here is the basic gist of how a sensor can be implemented differently. As long as your engineer isn't mentally challenged implementing the hardware and firmware of the 3310 is literally just following "instructions" for lack of a better word.


well then i guess the instructions arent that easy


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> aurora also uses holtek but i dont think its the same one
> and its firmware also has some sort of processing


I don't remember the specific critiques of the Holtek units, but I vaguely remember it being regarded as the cheap way to go. Hence my previous posts in this forum.


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I fully understand the impact on MouseTester graphs, I was really hoping for an answer from the source. I have a feeling the reality is more along the lines of:
> 
> - They had no idea the firmware on the MCU was doing this until now.
> or
> - They have run tests under enabled/disabled scenarios and this minor smoothing actually proves beneficial.
> or
> - They have totally no clue, made a hip single page website, paid some OEM to make a mouse with a 3310 sensor, and now swim in piles of money while hanging out on enthusiast forums - because gaming mice are such a lucrative business.


It could probably be any of those points, but what is also proven until this moment (apart from several defective units in the first edition) is a good amount of reports from owners who have tested this mouse and said they felt some kind of rawness superior to MOST gaming mice out there and that it was beneficial for their gaming purposes like aiming and stuff.

So if that's going to be like that, people should't worry about this mouse having such feature. I'd encourage to those who decide to buy it, to test and see for themselves if this works for them. What I'm worried about is the control quality stuff more than the feature making the mouse feel more or less "raw". I bought this for supporting this small company and for the fact that positive feedback from people "on the field" is for me more influential/valuable/relevant than other's criticism except for qsxcv who did a great job figuring this little technical subject out.


----------



## qsxcv

the question now is whether the sensor is better or worse with the processing turned off

i hope they release a firmware flasher so that we can figure out


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> It could probably be any of those points, but what is also proven until this moment (apart from several defective units in the first edition) is a good amount of reports from owners who have tested this mouse and said they felt some kind of rawness superior to MOST gaming mice out there and that it was beneficial for their gaming purposes like aiming and stuff.
> 
> So if that's going to be like that, people should't worry about this mouse having such feature. I'd encourage to those who decide to buy it, to test and see for themselves if this works for them. What I'm worried about is the control quality stuff more than the feature making the mouse feel more or less "raw". I bought this for supporting this small company and for the fact that positive feedback from people "on the field" is for me more influential/valuable/relevant than other's criticism except for qsxcv who did a great job figuring this little technical subject out.


It's funny how the "most raw" sensor implementation is the 3366 in the G502 and G303 and the FinalMouse is using post processing on the MCU level.

I think people are so conditioned to using certain mice they now have a twisted perception of tracking behavior. Whatever works for those people is what they should use/want. For other people who notice certain "workarounds," they will not want the same thing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the question now is whether the sensor is better or worse with the processing turned off
> 
> i hope they release a firmware flasher so that we can figure out


It would be nice to have that for educational purposes.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1440_20#post_23996095


----------



## qsxcv

imo there isnt any "most raw"
it either is or it isnt


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> It could probably be any of those points, but what is also proven until this moment (apart from several defective units in the first edition) is a good amount of reports from owners who have tested this mouse and said they felt some kind of rawness superior to MOST gaming mice out there and that it was beneficial for their gaming purposes like aiming and stuff.
> 
> So if that's going to be like that, people should't worry about this mouse having such feature. I'd encourage to those who decide to buy it, to test and see for themselves if this works for them. What I'm worried about is the control quality stuff more than the feature making the mouse feel more or less "raw". I bought this for supporting this small company and for the fact that positive feedback from people "on the field" is for me more influential/valuable/relevant than other's criticism except for qsxcv who did a great job figuring this little technical subject out.


I bought and use this mouse as my primary mouse as well, so I am not criticizing out of some sort of misguided hatred. For the most part I gravitate towards this mouse because I can't deal with the Hauno switches on Zowie, and Logitech G502 is just too heavy and stupid looking.

I understand that some (possibly paid) reviewers noted a "raw" feel, but still would really like to know if FinalMouse did some testing on this, or missing this register was just an oversight. I have a further theory that 1000hz might not work well because the of the smoothing being too slow -- so a usb report is not ready in time and is 'missed'.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> imo there isnt any "most raw"
> it either is or it isnt


That's the point of the matter. People throw around this word to describe mice with post processing.

When a sensor/mouse comes along without this type of processing people still say it cannot live up to the "rawness" of the MLT-04 and certain 3310 mice. A "raw" sensor implementation feels "inaccurate" or "floaty" to some people because it's not something they have experienced before. Naturally, the mouse that functions as pure as possible will feel like the behavior is somehow "off" where people think it should be.


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I bought and use this mouse as my primary mouse as well, so I am not criticizing out of some sort of misguided hatred. For the most part I gravitate towards this mouse because I can't deal with the Hauno switches on Zowie, and Logitech G502 is just too heavy and stupid looking.
> 
> I understand that some (possibly paid) reviewers noted a "raw" feel, but still would really like to know if FinalMouse did some testing on this, or missing this register was just an oversight. I have a further theory that 1000hz might not work well because the of the smoothing being too slow -- so a usb report is not ready in time and is 'missed'.


Not denying in any way your right to give such opinion, but I just thought your third point was a little too much. By the way, are you aware that saying "some possibly paid reviewers noted a raw feel" might affect some members with a reputation in this forum? What do you think the sensor feels like?

On a side note, I also think Logitech is ahead when it comes to innovation such a sensor development, engineering and button design in their latest mice, that's why I also bought a G303 to test with the FM. I'm still using an MX518 anyway. What would be really interesting is if they manage to materialize their good work with a lighter mouse, they should know that they have a huge advantage over their competition at this moment, too bad they are focusing more in the casuals.

ON TOPIC: I think it's nice to know that there are ways like the ones used by qsxcv to measure certain technical stuff in a mouse, which helps detecting malfunctioning sensors or simply bad behaviors in it. But since this has not proven any perceivable issue with the Finalmouse in terms of performance, which is why most of us are here, I think we CAN'T say this is a bad mouse right?


----------



## Abacus1234

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That's the point of the matter. People throw around this word to describe mice with post processing.
> 
> When a sensor/mouse comes along without this type of processing people still say it cannot live up to the "rawness" of the MLT-04 and certain 3310 mice. A "raw" sensor implementation feels "inaccurate" or "floaty" to some people because it's not something they have experienced before. Naturally, the mouse that functions as pure as possible will feel like the behavior is somehow "off" where people think it should be.


I have said something almost exactly like this before. I think I was talking about the X5's 3988. Somehow that mouse actually feels extremely accurate to me, but it doesn't actually feel the best. I think the high framerate of the 3988 and the apparently minimal tinkering that EVGA did make the X5 feel kind of floaty to me, but I can't honestly say it feels like there is anything weird going on. The 3310 feels more "glued down" as people say, but I think this reflects my expectation more than it necessarily reflects accuracy.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> ON TOPIC: I think it's nice to know that there are ways like the ones used by qsxcv to measure certain technical stuff in a mouse, which helps detecting malfunctioning sensors or simply bad behaviors in it. But since this has not proven any perceivable issue with the Finalmouse in terms of performance, which is why most of us are here, I think we CAN'T say this is a bad mouse right?


I wouldn't say it is a bad implementation. However, other people cannot claim the FinalMouse is better than the 3366 mice from Logitech just because it feels different and is closer to what they think is better.

The performance of the 3366 Logitech mice is ridiculously good and consistent. They just need to work on a few things.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> I have said something almost exactly like this before. I think I was talking about the X5's 3988. Somehow that mouse actually feels extremely accurate to me, but it doesn't actually feel the best. I think the high framerate of the 3988 and the apparently minimal tinkering that EVGA did make the X5 feel kind of floaty to me, but I can't honestly say it feels like there is anything weird going on.


The 3366 has the same or higher framerate but feels excellent to me while the X5's sensor felt strange at any setting.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> I think we CAN'T say this is a bad mouse right?


other than the tracking and the button response it's not particularly exceptional imo

buttons have a bit of pretravel, side buttons are cancer, glossy right side feels slimy, build quality is meh, cable is alright
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> On a side note, I also think Logitech is ahead when it comes to innovation such a sensor development, engineering and button design in their latest mice,


i think so too but they're going backwards when it comes to improving ergonomics and having soft+thin cables.

guess i'll just have to use the g100s for a while. too bad i just can't get used to the wmo shape


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Man, you guys are assuming way too much, and jumping to conclusions with very little info.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Because it smooths out the Mouse Tester results and changes the perception of consistency for their mouse.
> You definitely can't claim the FinalMouse implementation to be "raw" and "more raw" than the 3366. There is no way the 3310 is better than the 3366 hardware wise. I have mentioned this to MaximilianKohler.


When people say "raw" they're typically referring to the feel of the sensor ingame, and implementation-wise rather than hardware-wise.

Hardware is mostly irrelevant to the vast majority of us. It's obvious _(due to how drastically different mice with the same sensor perform)_ that implementation is the primary factor in how a sensor is going to feel/perform in game.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I fully understand the impact on MouseTester graphs, I was really hoping for an answer from the source. I have a feeling the reality is more along the lines of:
> 
> - They had no idea the firmware on the MCU was doing this until now.
> or
> - They have run tests under enabled/disabled scenarios and this minor smoothing actually proves beneficial.
> or
> - They have totally no clue, made a hip single page website, paid some OEM to make a mouse with a 3310 sensor, and now swim in piles of money while hanging out on enthusiast forums - because gaming mice are such a lucrative business.


I think some of you guys haven't been following the conversation very well.

Jude already stated that it's the 2nd of your points/options. He said he tested on/off and none of his testing equipment was able to distinguish a difference.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1450_50#post_23996095

Though I do not have 100% faith in his any professional level equipment _(or else every mouse from every company would come out perfect)_. It would be nice to be able to on/off this register for ingame testing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It's funny how the "most raw" sensor implementation is the 3366 in the G502 and G303 and the FinalMouse is using post processing on the MCU level.


It seems a little premature to conclude that solely because of this issue qsxcv discovered, that the 3366 implementation is more "raw" than the FM.

I'm no hardware/technical expert, but from what I've read there seems to be a really wide variety of things that affect the final outcome of how a sensor feels/performs.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I think people are so conditioned to using certain mice they now have a twisted perception of tracking behavior.


That's definitely not accurate. Ino and others have made such accusations in the past, and it's been put to rest for a while now. There is overwhelming consensus and agreement that certain mice/sensors perform better in game. Regardless of which mice the person was using prior.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> When a sensor/mouse comes along without this type of processing people still say it cannot live up to the "rawness" of the MLT-04 and certain 3310 mice. A "raw" sensor implementation feels "inaccurate" or "floaty" to some people because it's not something they have experienced before. Naturally, the mouse that functions as pure as possible will feel like the behavior is somehow "off" where people think it should be.


Are you basing all of this solely off of qsxcv's tests?

From what I understand no one seems to be able to find any technical details about the MLT04, yet you seem to be drawing conclusions that would require you to have such technical knowledge about it.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

WOW this thread has gone crazy (not a bad thing). All I can say is this is my favorite mouse thus far, but I'm not a mouse connoisseur


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Jude already stated that it's the 2nd of your points/options. He said he tested on/off and none of his testing equipment was able to distinguish a difference.


this processing doesn't affect things like moving the mouse in a circle and seeing how far off the pointer is once the mouse comes to a rest.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> As unbelievable as it may sound to some, 3310´s and 3988´s variance is annoying me a lot despite having a very small impact, but the difference to other Sensors is definitely feelable.
> 
> Edit: On the QcK, just to mention it.


is this related to the design of the 9800 dsp?

is it possible to say if the 3310, in general, is a regression from the 3090 with regards to variance?


----------



## qsxcv

my thoughts on 500hz vs 1000hz for finalmouse:

remember this weird thing where the spi communications are kind of lumped together?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> blue is trace of green usb wire. you can see the stable 1khz usb polling. the mouse only responds to every other poll though, which is why we say that it has 500hz usb "polling".
> 
> 
> yellow is sclk, light blue is miso (sensor to mcu), pink is mosi (mcu to sensor)
> 
> as you can see there's some weird cadence to the spi communication. however it is synchronized to the usb polling and since it has 2ms periodicity, this is perfectly fine given that it has 500hz polling.


well actually the intervals between spi communication is quite regular, when the mouse is not moving.
compare the left and right sides of this. on the left side the mouse isn't moving and on the right it is


i can only speculate as to why this happens... i suspect that if the spi communications during motion could be made completely regular, like on the g303

then 1000hz can perform just as well as 500hz in whatever benchmarks.

my personal belief is that 1000hz is better than 500hz, and if in certain circumstances 500hz performs better, then you have some other more important problem to fix first, either in the computer configuration or mouse firmware. a ****ty analogy would be to compare 1000hz vs 500hz to a big vs a small mousepad. if a small mousepad is better because your desk is too small, then you gotta think about getting a bigger desk


----------



## popups

@MaximilianKohler

From what I suspected, and what was discovered, the 3366 mice are quite impressive. An integrated LED, ~12000 FPS, no "smoothing" from the sensor, no post processing from the MCU, ~1ms debounce, stable polling, near perfect CPI consistency, etc..

Only thing I am still wondering about the 3366 is the pixel array's size. I asked Rafa and qsxcv to check it out, but nothing so far. I suspect it's larger than 900, maybe more like 1000-1250.

The MLT-04 has an integrated MCU with a limited data path, 22x22 array, external LED, 125Hz polling rate, 9000 FPS, a sleep mode (I think), etc. I don't see how that is going to be much better, if at all, than a 3366. Sure, it will feel different because of the combination of characteristics.

What you feel in-game is your subjective perception. What you base your comparison/opinion on is your prior experiences using other mice. Just because a mouse feels better to you in-game doesn't mean it's tracking is superior in reality, it just means that you prefer that feeling over others. If that behavior in-game allows you to play better, you should use that mouse.

From what I can recall, some companies have said that if a mouse was to give you exactly what the sensor tracks it would feel worse to the user than a mouse that filters/processes the data afterwards. Since we are human, if a mouse was to give us perfect tracking of the surface/motion we would think it is highly inaccurate to our intentions.

I felt like the G302 was very accurate in tracking my motions when I moved the mouse at a certain speed. At slower speeds it felt like it struggled a little bit, but it wasn't significantly worse than other sensors or mice. If you are just playing a FPS game, and you are using a medium to high sensitivity, it could feel wrong to you.

With the FinalMouse I can understand that it feels "smoother" than other mice because of the MCU code they are using. It doesn't mean that it's more precise than other mice. I assume it won't track my motions as closely as the G302 [3366] does. If you were to make it do so it would likely lower response. If that "smoothness" is akin to the MLT-04, and that is what you like, the FinalMouse might just be what you want.

People have said they don't want post processing done. Logitech tries to give people what they wanted with their newer mice. They even changed the AM010 to cater to those people. It seems like some of those people actually don't want such sensors, they just want a specific feeling that requires some sort of processing technique to achieve. How will they figure out what is this special "feeling" these people want?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Man, you guys are assuming way too much, and jumping to conclusions with very little info.


There's data here as opposed to feels.

I don't think it's good for you to be downplaying qsxcv's research. A raw - as in unaltered implenetation - isn't here at least at the MCU level.


----------



## Abacus1234

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Man, you guys are assuming way too much, and jumping to conclusions with very little info.
> When people say "raw" they're typically referring to the feel of the sensor ingame, and implementation-wise rather than hardware-wise.
> 
> Hardware is mostly irrelevant to the vast majority of us. It's obvious _(due to how drastically different mice with the same sensor perform)_ that implementation is the primary factor in how a sensor is going to feel/perform in game.
> I think some of you guys haven't been following the conversation very well.
> 
> Jude already stated that it's the 2nd of your points/options. He said he tested on/off and none of his testing equipment was able to distinguish a difference.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1450_50#post_23996095
> 
> Though I do not have 100% faith in his any professional level equipment _(or else every mouse from every company would come out perfect)_. It would be nice to be able to on/off this register for ingame testing.
> It seems a little premature to conclude that solely because of this issue qsxcv discovered, that the 3366 implementation is more "raw" than the FM.
> 
> I'm no hardware/technical expert, but from what I've read there seems to be a really wide variety of things that affect the final outcome of how a sensor feels/performs.
> 
> That's definitely not accurate. Ino and others have made such accusations in the past, and it's been put to rest for a while now. There is overwhelming consensus and agreement that certain mice/sensors perform better in game. Regardless of which mice the person was using prior.
> Are you basing all of this solely off of qsxcv's tests?
> 
> From what I understand no one seems to be able to find any technical details about the MLT04, yet you seem to be drawing conclusions that would require you to have such technical knowledge about it.


So much defense of this company. You use so many bad arguments in these replies. qsxcv is actually using a scientific approach and finding the truth about what different mice are doing with our inputs. You can keep going back to the way it "feels" to you, but any logical person is going to dismiss every possible anecdote in favor of real data.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> There's data here as opposed to feels.
> 
> I don't think it's good for you to be downplaying qsxcv's research. A raw - as in unaltered implenetation - isn't here at least at the MCU level.


I have a feel Razer/Logitech/SS/Zowie/Roccat... R&D has add MCU filtering into their next mouse secret sauce already.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> @MaximilianKohler
> 
> From what I suspected, and what was discovered, the 3366 mice are quite impressive. An integrated LED, ~12000 FPS, no "smoothing" from the sensor, no post processing from the MCU, ~1ms debounce, stable polling, near perfect CPI consistency, etc..


"No smoothing"

Ino's graphs say otherwise. And none of those other things are particularly significant/important.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Only thing I am still wondering about the 3366 is the pixel array's size. I asked Rafa and qsxcv to check it out, but nothing so far. I suspect it's larger than 900, maybe more like 1000-1250.
> 
> The MLT-04 has an integrated MCU with a limited data path, 22x22 array, external LED, 125Hz polling rate, 9000 FPS, a sleep mode (I think), etc. I don't see how that is going to be much better, if at all, than a 3366. Sure, it will feel different because of the combination of characteristics.


You don't see how because you're basing everything off unimportant factors.

Compare the DA4g to 3366 mice for example. They're very similar hardware-wise, but they feel very very different in game.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What you feel in-game is your subjective perception. What you base your comparison/opinion on is your prior experiences using other mice. Just because a mouse feels better to you in-game doesn't mean it's tracking is superior in reality, it just means that you prefer that feeling over others. If that behavior in-game allows you to play better, you should use that mouse.


That's rational to a certain degree. I'm fairly certain though that Logitech is simply missing some important factor that may be hard/impossible to detect with their equipment, but is very obvious in game. Sure it could be possible that they are simply far more "raw" than other mice and some form of "smoothing" actually improves the feel/performance in game. But I think it's highly unlikely. And there doesn't seem to be a valid basis to be making that claim. In fact, I'm HIGHLY skeptical of any claims Logitech makes for multiple reasons, including that their head engineer says high DPI is detrimental to sensor performance and then they release a 12k DPI monstrosity. And then they claim all DPI steps on the 3366 perform the same and have 0 smoothing, but Ino's graphs clearly prove that to be false.

Keep in mind that virtually everyone who's used the MLT04 and FM agree that they are superior to almost everything else. So whatever it is they're doing, whether it's more or less "smoothing", or something completely unrelated, if there is such a large consensus that they're superior in-game then it seems ridiculous to keep claiming the 3366 mice are better.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> With the FinalMouse I can understand that it feels "smoother" than other mice because of the MCU code they are using. It doesn't mean that it's more precise than other mice.


I wouldn't describe it as "smoother". It feels raw as in it lacks the feeling of some kind of "filter" (IE: "smoothing") that most other mice have. It actually feels more "raw" than the MLT04. But it has some other tracking inconsistency that keeps me using my 3.0.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I assume it won't track my motions as closely as the G302 [3366] does.


I don't know what you mean by that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> People have said they don't want post processing done. Logitech tries to give people what they wanted with their newer mice. They even changed the AM010 to cater to those people. It seems like some of those people actually don't want such sensors, they just want a specific feeling that requires some sort of processing technique to achieve.


That's a simplistic, flawed view in my opinion.

I have never used a Logitech mouse that has had equal/superior tracking to the MLT04, FM, or DA4g. So if they had smoothing in other mice, and no smoothing in recent mice, then it only confirms my suspicion that there is something big that they are missing. Though admittedly I have not used all their past mice.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> How will they figure out what is this special "feeling" these people want?


Maybe by hiring qualified in-game testers?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> So much defense of this company. You use so many bad arguments in these replies. qsxcv is actually using a scientific approach and finding the truth about what different mice are doing with our inputs. You can keep going back to the way it "feels" to you, but any logical person is going to dismiss every possible anecdote in favor of real data.


The problem is that the "real data" is likely a tiny (and possibly insignificant) portion of the overall picture/data/factors.


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> So much defense of this company. You use so many bad arguments in these replies. qsxcv is actually using a scientific approach and finding the truth about what different mice are doing with our inputs. You can keep going back to the way it "feels" to you, but any logical person is going to dismiss every possible anecdote in favor of real data.


The funny thing here is THAT "real data" showed in qsxcv findings doesn't say this mouse performance is bad or anything like that. Just points out that there's "something" happening there in the firmware that won't make possible an equal match in the reports he gets compared with what the mouse sends.. well what I just said could be explained better for sure but you get the idea.

Some say that behavior in the firmware is what makes people feel that "raw" feeling, some others say it's a combination of many things including weight, mouse feet, etc. So if this trick or whatever the firmware is doing makes no negative effect on an user experience, and doesn't change in a perceivable way how good the mouse perform, why should we think Finalmouse have to be debunked?

I think if this FM2015SE has to be marked as bad or not recommended, it could be because (if proven) recurrent CQ issues rather than their sensor implementation/engineering. Only time and feedback will tell.


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> "No smoothing"
> 
> Ino's graphs say otherwise. And none of those other things are particularly significant/important.
> You don't see how because you're basing everything off unimportant factors.


The only picture remotely close to ino.'s G502 is 800cpi/500hz/250hz/125hz


----------



## qsxcv

@popups: figuring out the pixel array size doesn't take anything special. you just need to break apart the plastic shell for the chip and probably destroy the sensor/mouse in the process of doing so, and take a picture with a camera that can do macro well. sorry but i'm not interested in this specification enough to break the sensors in either my g303 or g502. if you want me to figure out you can always buy one for me









these are my personal opinions and thoughts about mlt04.

the difference between mlt04 and cant be explained by numbers like those. the tracking algorithms/hardware are fundamentally different on a low level. for instance with mlt04, if you try to do a small diagonal movement you'll get a diagonal shift of the cursor. with avago sensors it goes up then right or right than up and draws a staircase pattern in paint. imo the avago way is more correct but this isn't important unless you draw pixel art. it just shows that the differences in some low level logic.

after a lot of line drawing in paint, it always seems that it is a lot easier to draw perfectly flat lines with avago sensors than with the wmo. with avago sensors, even those with angle snapping off (i've only tried 3366 in g303, am010 in g100s, and 3090 in ninox aurora), they all felt similar. generally you don't draw perfectly straight lines but you can always find long 100 pixel segments where it's perfectly horizontal after only a few tries. with the wmo it's like holy s***... even the straightest lines you can draw end up looking like ...............---.............______.........

the reason the mlt04 gets so much praise is most likely strongly related to this (and of course that it has no smoothing, crazy dpi interpolation, etc...). my hypothesis is that the mlt04 is in general more capable than avago sensors of picking up fine adjustments to motion that is predominantly in a particular direction (e.g. vertical fluctuations when drawing a horizontal line). i have some interesting thoughts about this but i'm too tired to write a coherent explanation. has anyone else thought about why the mlt04 is able to recover from malfunction pretty much perfectly, whereas modern sensors like the am010 completely explode until the motion returns to near 0 speed?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That's definitely not accurate. Ino and others have made such accusations in the past, and it's been put to rest for a while now. There is overwhelming consensus and agreement that certain mice/sensors perform better in game. Regardless of which mice the person was using prior.
> Are you basing all of this solely off of qsxcv's tests?


It was never "put to rest", it was just not possible to prove. Now it has been proven. It's also no "overwhelming consensus" when we have a very limited amount of people involved in the discussion anyway. My argument has always been that the best and most accurate sensor doesn't necessary feel the best. But it still is.
You still don't believe that the 3366 delivers the best result because you don't feel it.

The real debate should be where a sensor is "accurate enough" and what makes it feel/perform better for the end user and why.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> "No smoothing"
> 
> Ino's graphs say otherwise.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> and have 0 smoothing, but Ino's graphs clearly prove that to be false.


sorry mate but you're doing it wrong









a smooth plot is not a sign of smoothing

the key feature of mcu smoothing in mousetester or similar plots is that the regular spikes due to the framerate not matching perfectly with usb polling don't look like spikes

when you zoom into a plot which generally looks smooth,
you should see patterns like _*___*___*___* when there is no mcu smoothing/filtering/whatever you wanna call what the finalmouse does
instead of __*-___*-___*-___*-___

as i've checked, the g303 has no mcu smoothing and i'm 99% sure the g502 doesn't either.

afaik, sensor smoothing is near impossible to see when it's done in small amounts like for am010 (g100s, g302 and g402 above 2000dpi)
but given that logitech has openly discussed smoothing for the am010 i think we can trust them when they say the 3366 has no sensor smoothing


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It was never "put to rest", it was just not possible to prove. Now it has been proven.


So the original quote was:
Quote:


> I think people are so conditioned to using certain mice they now have a twisted perception of tracking behavior.


This has certainly been put to rest, for a number of reasons, but the primary one being that there are many many people (including myself) who used other mice for many years before trying a 9k fps MLT04. And the number/ratio of people who agree it's the best or one of the best sensors they've ever used is like 30 to 1.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> a smooth plot is not a sign of smoothing
> 
> the key feature of mcu smoothing in mousetester or similar plots is that the regular spikes due to the framerate not matching perfectly with usb polling don't look like spikes
> 
> when you zoom into a plot which generally looks smooth,
> you should see patterns like _*___*___*___* when there is no mcu smoothing/filtering/whatever you wanna call what the finalmouse does
> instead of __*-___*-___*-___*-___
> 
> as i've checked, the g303 has no mcu smoothing and i'm 99% sure the g502 doesn't either.
> 
> afaik, sensor smoothing is near impossible to see when it's done in small amounts like for am010 (g100s, g302 and g402 above 2000dpi)
> but given that logitech has openly discussed smoothing for the am010 i think we can trust them when they say the 3366 has no sensor smoothing


The graphs Ino's done of the 3366 show different performance on different DPI settings. Which is contrary to Logitech's claim that each step performs the same and has no "smoothing". Their personal definition of "smoothing" is post processing applied to counter-act jitter at high DPI settings. It's pretty obvious if you look at the graphs he did, that there is clearly something happening at higher DPI levels.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1481639/logitech-g502-proteus-core-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/0_50


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> There's data here as opposed to feels.
> 
> I don't think it's good for you to be downplaying qsxcv's research. A raw - as in unaltered implenetation - isn't here at least at the MCU level.


the research is just what it is. in and of itself it says nothing about how the data relates to what people feel

however my common sense tells me that if the smoothing were heavier the mouse would feel like crap
the same common sense tells me that even though the smoothing is pretty minimal, it is better to not have it at all.

i must say that all of this has changed my view of finalmouse the company. but they are still quite new and have many ways to improve and i'll keep my thoughts to myself for now


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The graphs Ino's done of the 3366 show different performance on different DPI settings. Which is contrary to Logitech's claim that each step performs the same and has no "smoothing". Their personal definition of "smoothing" is post processing applied to counter-act jitter at high DPI settings. It's pretty obvious if you look at the graphs he did, that there is clearly something happening at higher DPI levels.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1481639/logitech-g502-proteus-core-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/0_50


99% sure it's related to usb polling precision issues on ino's end. as we've seen before, it's a weird thing where sometimes its stable and sometimes it's not.

i'll make some plots for my g303 right now and show u


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The graphs Ino's done of the 3366 show different performance on different DPI settings. Which is contrary to Logitech's claim that each step performs the same and has no "smoothing". Their personal definition of "smoothing" is post processing applied to counter-act jitter at high DPI settings. It's pretty obvious if you look at the graphs he did, that there is clearly something happening at higher DPI levels.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1481639/logitech-g502-proteus-core-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/0_50


It makes no sense for smoothing algorithm to jump around between data point.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> It makes no sense for smoothing algorithm to jump around. between data point.


I don't understand what this is supposed to show.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 99% sure it's related to usb polling precision issues on ino's end. as we've seen before, it's a weird thing where sometimes its stable and sometimes it's not.
> 
> i'll make some plots for my g303 right now and show u


DPI should have no affect on polling precision though...


----------



## Brightmist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the difference between mlt04 and cant be explained by numbers like those. the tracking algorithms/hardware are fundamentally different on a low level. for instance with mlt04, if you try to do a small diagonal movement you'll get a diagonal shift of the cursor. with avago sensors it goes up then right or right than up and draws a staircase pattern in paint.


Yea, why's that? Is there a desyncing/congestation issue when coordinates get sent through?


----------



## qsxcv

it was not stable on ino's system

look more carefully
the ones which show the double line are actually xcounts plots

since xvelocity is xcounts divided the polling interval for each particular point, fluctuations in the usb polling will make the double line pattern fuzzy

here are mine:

obviously 400dpi looks more fuzzy due to quantization


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brightmist*
> 
> Yea, why's that? Is there a desyncing issue when coordinates get sent through?



draw a line through here and see which squares are crossed.


----------



## Brightmist

This is: using a ruler, on paint, 500 DPI, 1000 Hz, 3366.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> @popups: figuring out the pixel array size doesn't take anything special. you just need to break apart the plastic shell for the chip and probably destroy the sensor/mouse in the process of doing so, and take a picture with a camera that can do macro well. sorry but i'm not interested in this specification enough to break the sensors in either my g303 or g502. if you want me to figure out you can always buy one for me


You don't break it, just open the casing. Rafa has opened a few sensors and taken pictures of the arrays.

http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2014/12/a3055am010.html
http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.jp/2014/04/pixart-pmw3310dh.html

Finding out the array size can tell us how much the sensor can effectively scale and what would be the optimal settings.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> these are my personal opinions and thoughts about mlt04.
> 
> the difference between mlt04 and cant be explained by numbers like those. the tracking algorithms/hardware are fundamentally different on a low level. for instance with mlt04, if you try to do a small diagonal movement you'll get a diagonal shift of the cursor. with avago sensors it goes up then right or right than up and draws a staircase pattern in paint. imo the avago way is more correct but this isn't important unless you draw pixel art. it just shows that the differences in some low level logic.
> 
> after a lot of line drawing in paint, it always seems that it is a lot easier to draw perfectly flat lines with avago sensors than with the wmo. with avago sensors, even those with angle snapping off (i've only tried 3366 in g303, am010 in g100s, and 3090 in ninox aurora), they all felt similar. generally you don't draw perfectly straight lines but you can always find long 100 pixel segments where it's perfectly horizontal after only a few tries. with the wmo it's like holy s***... even the straightest lines you can draw end up looking like ...............---.............______.........
> 
> the reason the mlt04 gets so much praise is most likely strongly related to this (and of course that it has no smoothing, crazy dpi interpolation, etc...). my hypothesis is that the mlt04 is in general more capable than avago sensors of picking up fine adjustments to motion that is predominantly in a particular direction (e.g. vertical fluctuations when drawing a horizontal line). i have some interesting thoughts about this but i'm too tired to write a coherent explanation. has anyone else thought about why the mlt04 is able to recover from malfunction pretty much perfectly, whereas modern sensors like the am010 completely explode until the motion returns to near 0 speed?


I think the MCU limitation and polling rate of the MLT has an affect on the tracking perception. Of course the code within is different than the Avago and PixArt code, like the input cap at malfunction until there is no overflow.


----------



## qsxcv

dam it you took me too seriously
but you see how in general a line first crosses a square above it, then crosses one to the right, etc...

that's the same reason most mice zig zag when drawing diagonal lines slowly


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> You don't break it, just open the casing. Rafa has opened a few sensors and taken pictures of the arrays.


k f it yolo
ill try now. rip g303.

i doubt the case can be separated and attached back on securely... maybe with glue

edit: doesn't seem possible to do cleanly without desoldering


----------



## Brightmist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> dam it you took me too seriously
> but you see how in general a line first crosses a square above it, then crosses one to the right, etc...
> 
> that's the same reason most mice zig zag when drawing diagonal lines slowly


If both x and y coordinates are sent through simultaneously, it shouldn't be zig-zagging really.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> So the original quote was:
> This has certainly been put to rest, for a number of reasons, but the primary one being that there are many many people (including myself) who used other mice for many years before trying a 9k fps MLT04. And the number/ratio of people who agree it's the best or one of the best sensors they've ever used is like 30 to 1.


Alright, that should be put to rest, simply because how you perceive tracking behavior is an individual thing. I was going for the x is more accurate than y thing.

And I believe that most people finding the MLT04 much better for slow movements than the Avago sensors has a lot to do with that qsxcv said about the difference in tracking algorithms between the two architectures.


----------



## qsxcv

yea but they're not in general because when you move through slowly, it goes up then right then up...


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> k f it yolo
> ill try now. rip g303.
> 
> i doubt the case can be separated and attached back on securely... maybe with glue
> 
> edit: doesn't seem possible to do cleaning without desoldering


You don't have to do it.

It would be a nice little piece of information to have considering Logitech doesn't want to say what it is. Same thing happened with the frame rate, but you got that.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@qsxcv hmm, it looks like you're right. I probably just didn't notice that he was fluctuating between xvelocity and xcount.

I will edit some statements I made about this on ESR and such, to reflect this discovery.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> You don't have to do it.
> 
> It would be a nice little piece of information to have considering Logitech doesn't want to say what it is. Same thing happened with the frame rate, but you got that.


actually it may be possible to figure out if the 3366 has a frame capture function like on the 9800 3090 and other avago sensors


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This has certainly been put to rest, for a number of reasons, but the primary one being that there are many many people (including myself) who used other mice for many years before trying a 9k fps MLT04. And the number/ratio of people who agree it's the best or one of the best sensors they've ever used is like 30 to 1.


What I meant is that the MLT-04 might not be as precise at tracking the actual movement that is occurring. Just because it has a specific behavior doesn't mean it's more precise than the 3366 sensor. People believe this particular package to be superior over newer offerings that are more sensitive because it's easier for them to get the results they want, so they think the MLT is the best tracking sensor based on human perception, but that doesn't mean it has superior tracking.

How about someone actually puts a MLT-04 and 3366 on a machine to test the tracking? It won't be an exact comparison because the 3366 is a lot more sensitive, but at least there will be some direct numbers.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> actually it may be possible to figure out if the 3366 has a frame capture function like on the 9800 3090 and other avago sensors


It should because that is used for testing.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What I meant is that the MLT-04 might not be as precise at tracking the actual movement that is occurring. Just because it has a specific behavior doesn't mean it's more precise than the 3366 sensor.


That's very possible. But then you go on to state that the 3366 is superior, and there is not sufficient evidence for that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> People believe this particular package to be superior over newer offerings that are more sensitive because it's easier for them to get the results they want, so they think the MLT is the best tracking sensor *based on human perception*, but that doesn't mean it has superior tracking.


But for all practical intents and purposes, human perception is ultimately what matters the most. We're not making mice for robots, we're making them for people. X might be technically better than Y, but if Y enables the best performance out of its users then Y should be the goal.

But either way you seem to be making assertions that X is technically better than Y without sufficient data to back that claim.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> How about someone actually puts a MLT-04 and 3366 on a machine to test the tracking? It won't be an exact comparison because the 3366 is a lot more sensitive, but at least there will be some direct numbers.


It definitely would be nice to get some comparison like that, but I doubt any company with high tech professional machinery would do it. Maybe FM would...

But even then, it seems safe to assume that currently available professional machinery isn't adequate, or else every mouse released would be perfect.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> But for all practical intents and purposes, *human perception is ultimately what matters the most*. We're not making mice for robots, we're making them for people. X might be technically better than Y, but if Y enables the best performance out of its users then Y should be the goal.


Now we can be honest about what some people really want. They don't want a very unforgiving, high pixel density, very high FPS sensor. They want something that feels smooth and easy to control with their cumbersome hands. Which means they want some kind of post processing (like sensor smoothing or MCU filtering).


----------



## espk

I received my FM2015 and everything is great except for an excessively squeaky right click...it's loud enough that I can see it becoming really annoying over time, if not in sound then by feel

Wasn't this an issue with the previous version as well? It's quite awful in mobas..


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espk*
> 
> I received my FM2015 and everything is great except for an excessively squeaky right click...it's loud enough that I can see it becoming really annoying over time, if not in sound then by feel
> 
> Wasn't this an issue with the previous version as well? It's quite awful in mobas..


if it squeaks, then it probably rubs somewhere against the shell, so over time it should get better.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Now we can be honest about what some people really want. They don't want a very unforgiving, high pixel density, very high FPS sensor. They want something that feels smooth and easy to control with their cumbersome hands. Which means they want some kind of post processing (like sensor smoothing or MCU filtering).


id say that the sensor in the fm is already smooth enough with no processing


----------



## Gylfen

Where is this discussion heading, is the sensor awful now all of a sudden?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> if it squeaks, then it probably rubs somewhere against the shell, so over time it should get better.


My FK still squeaks when I click a certain way. It's been a year or two.


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gylfen*
> 
> Where is this discussion heading, is the sensor awful now all of a sudden?


It's far from awful, nothing much wrong with it at all for all but the most pedantic of people. Qsxcv has brought up some interesting data about some post processing that looks to be involved which may or may not have a minor effect on mouse movement.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> id say that the sensor in the fm is already smooth enough with no processing


The 3310 is said to have something like 1-2ms (maybe more) of smoothing within the SROM, which is why Logitech (supposedly) chose to use the AM010 instead. Then add the MCU filtering code from FinalMouse and a 2ms polling rate on top of that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gylfen*
> 
> Where is this discussion heading, is the sensor awful now all of a sudden?


Where I ultimately wanted to go with this conversation was to have people acknowledge that some soft of processing to the raw data is what they actually want. They don't really want a super "raw" sensor implementation like they have been asking for. They want something that is very easy for a human to control regardless of the response decrease or actual tracking precision... Their perception matters more than a few milliseconds of delay.

As much as people wanted a lot of "advancement" in sensors, they realized they didn't like it, now they want to take a step back. They should just be honest about wanting some sort of extra code to change perception.

It's not like it has been scientifically proven that the MLT-04 is more precise than any other sensor. Yet people claim it to be the best purely on their perception, which could easily be because of some code that is being used.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The 3310 is said to have something like 2ms of smoothing within the SROM, which is why Logitech (supposedly) chose to use the AM010


source?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello everyone ,

Thought I would share a couple updates regarding the 2016 model. At the moment we aren't satisfied at all with the ambi prototype shapes so I'll stick with what we are close to happy with.

Here is a picture of the new side buttons for the 2016 models. In addition to a new side button mold which Was designed the side buttons now also use omron switches. Here is a picture, mind you this is from our own fabricator not full production injection. So still a rough sample.



As for material changes we are still experimenting. Obviously it seems most people have been asking for a departure away from anything glossy. The side buttons we can make matte , but the real challenge is what to do with the main glossy side on the right and upper left. Unfortunately when we tried other plastics weight was increased substantially, so we don't think that is an option. I will try and share more updates here when we figure something out. As of now texturing the current plastic seems like the best course of action.

Also since there seems to be a couple individuals here who prefer to have more choice on their sensor settings, I'm asking for permission to see if I can release several firmware flashers here. Obviously these flashers will come with a strict disclaimer that says it is not how the finalmouse is meant to be utilized, and is not the desired tracking feeling we found our In house pros to enjoy... That being said I will try and release the following firmware:

500 hz with MCU noise control register off
1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> source?


http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/100_20#post_22646587
http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/120_20#post_22647877
http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino/140_20#post_22651869

I think Mionix had commented on the 3310's characteristics. I think it was in a video.

There is other pieces of info here and there, but I don't remember where. Maybe on Chinese forums, videos, etc. It's been years.


----------



## MasterBash

Sweet, if those "custom" firmwares get released, I may buy the mouse.


----------



## Brightmist

That's pretty awesome Jude.

I hope you guys consider creating a small ambi shape in the future.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> That being said I will try and release the following firmware:
> 
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello everyone ,
> 
> Thought I would share a couple updates regarding the 2016 model. At the moment we aren't satisfied at all with the ambi prototype shapes so I'll stick with what we are close to happy with.
> 
> As for material changes we are still experimenting. Obviously it seems most people have been asking for a departure away from anything glossy. The side buttons we can make matte , but the real challenge is what to do with the main glossy side on the right and upper left. Unfortunately when we tried other plastics weight was increased substantially, so we don't think that is an option. I will try and share more updates here when we figure something out. As of now texturing the current plastic seems like the best course of action.
> 
> Also since there seems to be a couple individuals here who prefer to have more choice on their sensor settings, I'm asking for permission to see if I can release several firmware flashers here. Obviously these flashers will come with a strict disclaimer that says it is not how the finalmouse is meant to be utilized, and is not the desired tracking feeling we found our In house pros to enjoy... That being said I will try and release the following firmware:
> 
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Got to get that symmetrical shape proper. I haven't seen any ODM/OEM shapes that are very good, that's no surprise.

Isn't ABS the lightest type of plastic you could use for a mouse? If people want lightweight, they have to settle with a few layers of coatings.

I doubt you would change the molds for the sake of texture. People probably won't like the texture anyway, which is why other companies use rubber panels.

At least we know that people don't like certain behavior. Allowing choice can help change perspective. Hopefully, this isn't some placebo trickery, that would be more harmful than not releasing any flasher.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


This would be great! Don't forget the 500hz with MCU noise control on, to return to stock.

I also really like the side button upgrade on the 2016 prototype.


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Here is a picture of the new side buttons for the 2016 models. In addition to a new side button mold which Was designed the side buttons now also use omron switches. Here is a picture, mind you this is from our own fabricator not full production injection. So still a rough sample.
> 
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Jude, the bigger issue with the side buttons isn't their shape but the position. They are too high and can't be clicked easily without either lifting your thumb or rolling it uncomfortably upwards. They have to be a little lower I think, just inside the thumb groove, so your thumb is already pretty much on them.

Either that or make the thumb groove less pronounced so it isn't forced into that lower position away from the switches.

Edit: Can provide pictures with other mice to illustrate my point if you like?


----------



## EvenR

Yep i agree with this. For example the position of the side buttons on a Razer Deathadder are just perfect. You can just roll your thumb and it's there, but you'd never accidentally hit them.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Now we can be honest about what some people really want. They don't want a very unforgiving, high pixel density, very high FPS sensor. They want something that feels smooth and easy to control with their cumbersome hands. Which means they want some kind of post processing (like sensor smoothing or MCU filtering).


I've asked you like 3 times now... what are you basing this on? You seem to be jumping to conclusions off little to no data. 9k FPS is pretty high, and the DA4g has the same FPS as the 3366 yet feels much better.

What I am agreeing is a possibility, you seem to be adamant that it's a fact. I'd like to know why.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello everyone ,
> 
> Thought I would share a couple updates regarding the 2016 model. At the moment we aren't satisfied at all with the ambi prototype shapes so I'll stick with what we are close to happy with.


What does this mean? That an ambi mouse is going to be delayed till sometime next year? Do you not have the ability to customize a shape yourself? You have to rely on prototypes?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Unfortunately when we tried other plastics weight was increased substantially, so we don't think that is an option.


Have you identified what plastic was used on the Aurora? Because that one is both light and great for both sweaty and dry hands.

Those firmware flashing options are awesome, thanks!


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Have you identified what plastic was used on the Aurora? Because that one is both light and great for both sweaty and dry hands.


this x1000
they're all abs but not all abs are the same.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I've asked you like 3 times now... what are you basing this on? You seem to be jumping to conclusions off little to no data. 9k FPS is pretty high, and the DA4g has the same FPS as the 3366 yet feels much better.
> 
> What I am agreeing is a possibility, you seem to be adamant that it's a fact. I'd like to know why.
> What does this mean? That an ambi mouse is going to be delayed till sometime next year? Do you not have the ability to customize a shape yourself? You have to rely on prototypes?
> Have you identified what plastic was used on the Aurora? Because that one is both light and great for both sweaty and dry hands.
> 
> Those firmware flashing options are awesome, thanks!


Hello Max,

I don't understand your question, all the shapes have to start with prototypes. We are designing them ourself but we aren't satisfied with any shape as of today. The exact reason for this is because every design we have come up with gives a feeling of distance when holding the mouse. It's almost as if some degree of ergonomic shape is required unless you are a complete fingertip player. We still plan on doing an ambi model but right now we just aren't happy with what the designs we have been feeling at hand. 2016 still should be easily doable, we move pretty quickly here.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Have you tried a larger aurora shape? Maybe with a "fuller" backside? How about a WMO shape? I've never tried the WMO but tons of people seem enamored with it. What about a shape similar to the FK1 but with straighter sides (rather than thinner in the mid & front), and wider? What about a razer copperhead type shape but with less slanting inwards of the sides towards the bottom?

And around 65mm width for all of them. Maybe you're just not making them high, long, or wide enough?

It would be interesting to see what shapes you've tested and ruled out so far, and why. I primarily palm with two fingers on the side.


----------



## espgodson

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Max,
> 
> I don't understand your question, all the shapes have to start with prototypes. We are designing them ourself but we aren't satisfied with any shape as of today. The exact reason for this is because every design we have come up with gives a feeling of distance when holding the mouse. It's almost as if some degree of ergonomic shape is required unless you are a complete fingertip player. We still plan on doing an ambi model but right now we just aren't happy with what the designs we have been feeling at hand. 2016 still should be easily doable, we move pretty quickly here.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


seems like you're going off personal preference as an ergo lover. so many people want a sensei shaped mouse with a good sensor (and personally i'd like one lighter) you should just do that! sensei clone make it different enough to not get sued and you'll be printing money!


----------



## popups

@MaximilianKohler

Trying to get you to understand my point is apparently going to take a scientific study and releasing datasheets. If you read and watch everything that's out there you can figure it out.

To me 6000 FPS should be minimum, 9000 is good and 12000 is great.

I heard the 3988 has some processing done on the sensor level. You can compare the public 3988 SROM to the private 3989 SROM products to see if there is a perceivable difference. There is a reason why Logitech has a 3366 rather than using a 3988/3989.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> seems like you're going off personal preference as an ergo lover. so many people want a sensei shaped mouse with a good sensor (and personally i'd like one lighter) you should just do that! sensei clone make it different enough to not get sued and you'll be printing money!


I don't like the Xai/Sensei shape. I like a combination of Diamondback, Intellimouse Optical and FK/ZA.

This is a pretty good example:


----------



## mikesn

I'm still flabbergasted that the only options for the 3366 that Logitech released were in a crazy heavy mouse and another with a super controversial shape. Makes no real sense to me - put the damn thing in everything, wide variety of shapes to cater to all audiences. If the sensor goes public before they've done this (and some people were speculating that may happen as soon as ~August?) I think they've lost a massive opportunity to dominate the market.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello everyone ,
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well


if you can deliver this, you are a god.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mikesn*
> 
> I'm still flabbergasted that the only options for the 3366 that Logitech released were in a crazy heavy mouse and another with a super controversial shape. Makes no real sense to me - put the damn thing in everything, wide variety of shapes to cater to all audiences. If the sensor goes public before they've done this (and some people were speculating that may happen as soon as ~August?) I think they've lost a massive opportunity to dominate the market.


I agree 100%. This is why I am so frustrated with Logitech. They spent money on an exclusive sensor and then put it in two mice that have large flaws to many. In my mind they should have thrown this sensor in an entire lineup while it was exclusive. G102/G402/G502/G202(true ambidextrous shell with side buttons like sensei/fk) Pretty much any new mouse purchase recommendation would have been Logitech. Bags of money left on the table. And please don't use the "shells are expensive" card because a tiny company named Zowie has released a huge lineup all sharing their flagship sensor choice even though their sensor isn't even exclusive!


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> seems like you're going off personal preference as an ergo lover. so many people want a sensei shaped mouse with a good sensor (and personally i'd like one lighter) you should just do that! sensei clone make it different enough to not get sued and you'll be printing money!


You've tried the Aurora right? Can you detail what you prefer about the sensei shape over the aurora shape? For me, the sensei forces certain grips/hand sizes, whereas the aurora does not. And it's due to the specific contours on the sides that the sensei has and the aurora does not.


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I agree 100%. This is why I am so frustrated with Logitech. They spent money on an exclusive sensor and then put it in two mice that have large flaws to many. In my mind they should have thrown this sensor in an entire lineup while it was exclusive. G102/G402/G502/G202(true ambidextrous shell with side buttons like sensei/fk) Pretty much any new mouse purchase recommendation would have been Logitech. Bags of money left on the table. And please don't use the "shells are expensive" card because a tiny company named Zowie has released a huge lineup all sharing their flagship sensor choice even though their sensor isn't even exclusive!


When they did the G303 I was expecting a full refresh with RGB lights in everything in the vain hope of at least a G403 with 3366, but alas...


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> As for material changes we are still experimenting. Obviously it seems most people have been asking for a departure away from anything glossy. The side buttons we can make matte , but the real challenge is what to do with the main glossy side on the right and upper left. Unfortunately when we tried other plastics weight was increased substantially, so we don't think that is an option. I will try and share more updates here when we figure something out. As of now texturing the current plastic seems like the best course of action.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


even if it adds a bit weight, i would choose sidegrips, and then from same material and same texture as the CM storm spawn/xornet have.


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> if you can deliver this, you are a god.


If he does and they eventually release a ambi version with the same firmwares... that would defo peek my interest.

I'm good with either Sensei'ish or Aurora'ish shape tbh. I prefer the first but I can adapt to the latter easily as long as it isn't a diamond


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Max,
> 
> We are designing them ourself but we aren't satisfied with any shape as of today. The exact reason for this is because every design we have come up with gives a feeling of distance when holding the mouse. It's almost as if some degree of ergonomic shape is required unless you are a complete fingertip player. We still plan on doing an ambi model but right now we just aren't happy with what the designs we have been feeling at hand. 2016 still should be easily doable, we move pretty quickly here.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Yea you should basically stick with what have worked in the past, examples are WMO/IMO shape. Also some modern mice have interesting ambidextrous shapes like Sensei/Kana, FK1/FK2, but they feel kind of incomplete. Make sure it's wider enough so it feels full in the hand (zowie couldn't make this happen). These kind of shapes work for claw grippers, palm grippers and for the ones that combine both, so I'd suggest you guys to do a research with these shapes in mind. Now two sizes would be awesome because doing so, you'd cover most people preferences. The other move could be releasing a mouse with rubber coating and the other in glossy, but I don't know if this is would cost a lot more.

Gratz on your decision to ask for and eventually release firmware updates with such customizable possibilities!


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello everyone ,
> 
> Thought I would share a couple updates regarding the 2016 model. At the moment we aren't satisfied at all with the ambi prototype shapes so I'll stick with what we are close to happy with.
> 
> Here is a picture of the new side buttons for the 2016 models. In addition to a new side button mold which Was designed the side buttons now also use omron switches. Here is a picture, mind you this is from our own fabricator not full production injection. So still a rough sample.
> 
> 
> 
> As for material changes we are still experimenting. Obviously it seems most people have been asking for a departure away from anything glossy. The side buttons we can make matte , but the real challenge is what to do with the main glossy side on the right and upper left. Unfortunately when we tried other plastics weight was increased substantially, so we don't think that is an option. I will try and share more updates here when we figure something out. As of now texturing the current plastic seems like the best course of action.
> 
> Also since there seems to be a couple individuals here who prefer to have more choice on their sensor settings, I'm asking for permission to see if I can release several firmware flashers here. Obviously these flashers will come with a strict disclaimer that says it is not how the finalmouse is meant to be utilized, and is not the desired tracking feeling we found our In house pros to enjoy... That being said I will try and release the following firmware:
> 
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Hey!

Some people might prefer the feel of a distance, depending on what you mean by it.. You don't need anything too complex for an ambidextrous shape Logitech G100s is a good example of that, basically a perfect shape, just too small for some people.. I am an ambi -user and I don't need mouse to stick in my hand, I like to be able to make "micro adjustments" with my fingers, while palm/hybrid -gripping the mouse. There needs to be little "wiggle-room" when you relax your grip..

Maybe you just don't have the right people (ambi -users) there to judge a good ambi -mouse?


----------



## edyago

Does anyone else's back button (mouse 5?) go in a second time after actuation? Feels like the PCB it's connected to isn't properly secured to the shell or it broke...


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> Does anyone else's back button (mouse 5?) go in a second time after actuation? Feels like the PCB it's connected to isn't properly secured to the shell or it broke...


Mine doesn't. Sounds like something broke off. Happened to my DA once.


----------



## espk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> if it squeaks, then it probably rubs somewhere against the shell, so over time it should get better.


http://vocaroo.com/i/s0PK5pjvXT4T

it's only gotten worse over the week i've had it


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I like to be able to make "micro adjustments" with my fingers, while palm/hybrid -gripping the mouse. There needs to be little "wiggle-room" when you relax your grip..


The G303 fits me perfectly for that palm grip where a good portion of the wrist is on the pad instead of the mouse which allows those micro adjustments. Probably a fingertip/palm hybrid grip.


----------



## Abacus1234

Just wanted to get in here and say that my FinalMouse SE feels like a completely different mouse next to my old defective one. I had numerous issues with my original mouse, that I kept using for a long time in spite of the horrible build quality. This new one does not rattle, the clicks feel better, and the entire body of the mouse feels more solid.

I have always thought their pricing was a little extreme, but this new edition at least gets the product much closer to justifying its higher price tag. If anyone was still holding off on buying one of these due to build quality issues, I think it is safe to say you wont be disappointed after the update.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> If he does and they eventually release a ambi version with the same firmwares... that would defo peek my interest.
> 
> I'm good with either Sensei'ish or Aurora'ish shape tbh. I prefer the first but I can adapt to the latter easily as long as it isn't a diamond


i think I would have prefered an ambi shape too but I already got my summer edition


----------



## sh4m

Hi,
Any news on Europe/UK availability?
Thanks!


----------



## doors1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> Just wanted to get in here and say that my FinalMouse SE feels like a completely different mouse next to my old defective one. I had numerous issues with my original mouse, that I kept using for a long time in spite of the horrible build quality. This new one does not rattle, the clicks feel better, and the entire body of the mouse feels more solid.
> 
> I have always thought their pricing was a little extreme, but this new edition at least gets the product much closer to justifying its higher price tag. If anyone was still holding off on buying one of these due to build quality issues, I think it is safe to say you wont be disappointed after the update.


And the sensor ?


----------



## aayman_farzand

Finally got to try mine today, I love the grip and the weight. Scroll feels too mushy and I'm not a fan of the side buttons, seems too flimsy for some reason.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I received my SE today because my original stopped functioning after a few months. The build quality seems more or less identical to the previous 3 FMs I've tested. I've not had any of the build quality issues that anyone has ever mentioned, on any of my FMs.

I will report on the sensor after I've tested, but so far the mousetester graphs look more or less the same.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Got some play time in and it's clear that the sensor is not tracking properly on my HDPE surface. Clear stutters in small, slow movements. Tracks perfectly on the Hiro 3D.

Grip is great but the side buttons and the tracking issue is forcing me to return it. A $70 mouse shouldn't have these issues. My G402 and G303 tracks perfectly. I am fairly confident that the Mionix Avior 7000 tracks well too. My friend has a similar surface and he did not mention the stutters. So it has to be an implementation issue.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Got some play time in and it's clear that the sensor is not tracking properly on my HDPE surface. Clear stutters in small, slow movements. Tracks perfectly on the Hiro 3D.
> 
> Grip is great but the side buttons and the tracking issue is forcing me to return it. A $70 mouse shouldn't have these issues. My G402 and G303 tracks perfectly. I am fairly confident that the Mionix Avior 7000 tracks well too. My friend has a similar surface and he did not mention the stutters. So it has to be an implementation issue.


I experienced something similar with my first FM. It tracked better on a darker surface. However, I tested two others that both tracked the same on all pads.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I experienced something similar with my first FM. It tracked better on a darker surface. However, I tested two others that both tracked the same on all pads.


Well the HDPE is pure black with textures so don't think color is an issue. Besides, aren't the inconsistencies amongst the mices supposed to be fixed in the SE?


----------



## kaptchka

I definitely noticed the SE to be more consistent. Stuttering tracking is probably a loose or messed up lens. Only issue with my SE so far is that the lights are a lot brighter than before. Anyone else notice this? I mean it's not game breaking for me but I preferred the dimmer light.


----------



## Abacus1234

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> And the sensor ?


The sensor feels identical in game. My mousetester graphs looked just like the old mouse. For all intents and purposes I would consider the tracking to still be one of the mouse's strong points.


----------



## orcus286

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I've not had any of the build quality issues that anyone has ever mentioned, on any of my FMs.


You don't think the side buttons feel cheap?


----------



## Skyval

My SE's side buttons didn't feel cheap. They had some of the best actuations I've felt, really.


----------



## qsxcv

just goes to prove how inconsistent it is
my side buttons are absolute cancer... they're ridiculously stiff and the button itself is way too pointy


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> I definitely noticed the SE to be more consistent. Stuttering tracking is probably a loose or messed up lens. Only issue with my SE so far is that the lights are a lot brighter than before. Anyone else notice this? I mean it's not game breaking for me but I preferred the dimmer light.


I'm pretty sure it's just the HDPE surface messing up the tracking. I heard it does that but it was usually years older mice and I had other 3310 mice work perfectly fine.

The mouse is not bad by any means, I enjoyed it while playing on my cloth pad. But I can't justify $70 and compromise on the side buttons and my favorite pad.


----------



## orcus286

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skyval*
> 
> My SE's side buttons didn't feel cheap. They had some of the best actuations I've felt, really.


I use one of the side buttons for teamspeak and after 3 days couldn't handle it anymore and returned the mouse to amazon. The side buttons were way too stiff and uncomfortable.
Also the inability to turn off the very bright led is annoying.


----------



## Maximillion

The side-buttons are the main reason I'm skipping the SE. Quite excited for the ambi version, though.


----------



## marts30

Has anyone that was waiting for a replacement model received the new one yet? I was told I would get a new one sent when they became available as my old Finalmouse stopped working.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

My SE came in about 4 days ago & i put it to work instantly. Tracks extremely well on my PT Talent & my QCK Heavy. Side buttons are not my Fav, but that's absolutely not a deal breaker & they are no problem to me. Some people are just too picky. Mouse 1 & 2 are responsive & feel good. We'll see how it holds up over the next few weeks to months via my heavy useage.


----------



## orcus286

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Side buttons are not my Fav, but that's absolutely not a deal breaker & they are no problem to me. Some people are just too picky


I came from a Logitech G303 and before that a Deathadder ... neither had the best side buttons but both were much better than the SE.

They just feel cheap.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orcus286*
> 
> I came from a Logitech G303 and before that a Deathadder ... neither had the best side buttons but both were much better than the SE.
> 
> They just feel cheap.


DA has the best side buttons i've dealt with. Well placed To me & feel great too.


----------



## EvenR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> DA has the best side buttons i've dealt with. Well placed To me & feel great too.


+1


----------



## orcus286

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> DA has the best side buttons i've dealt with. Well placed To me & feel great too.


Maybe I'm just spoiled then lol .. but either way the SE side buttons are meh.


----------



## Abacus1234

For good side buttons, look no farther than the ROG Gladius.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> Only issue with my SE so far is that the lights are a lot brighter than before. Anyone else notice this? I mean it's not game breaking for me but I preferred the dimmer light.


Same.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orcus286*
> 
> You don't think the side buttons feel cheap?


I'm sure some people get mice that have this or that different. For me my SE's side buttons are slightly worse than the original's. But nothing crazy.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Got some play time in and it's clear that the sensor is not tracking properly on my HDPE surface. Clear stutters in small, slow movements. Tracks perfectly on the Hiro 3D.
> 
> Grip is great but the side buttons and the tracking issue is forcing me to return it. A $70 mouse shouldn't have these issues. My G402 and G303 tracks perfectly. I am fairly confident that the Mionix Avior 7000 tracks well too. My friend has a similar surface and he did not mention the stutters. So it has to be an implementation issue.


I can confirm that it is indeed an implementation issue. My KPM came in today and it works perfectly on the HDPE surface. I have it set to Extra Low and it still tracks fine, so the issue is with the FM.

Edit: Since @FinalmouseJude frequents here, if you need help collecting any data to fix this please let me know. I have it boxed up but won't ship it back till next week.


----------



## Abacus1234

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Same.
> I'm sure some people get mice that have this or that different. For me my SE's side buttons are slightly worse than the original's. But nothing crazy.


But regardless, they feel flimsy and the buttons themselves are sharp. They are pretty poor, unless you are just really into having your thumb dug into whenever you press them.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Mine have never been sharp or flimsy. Though like I said, my SE's are slightly more flimsy. Still better than my 3.0 LE though.


----------



## qsxcv

i can't tell whether your mice is genuinely better than ours or that you're just more forgiving of these issues.

this is what my side buttons looks like


----------



## Abacus1234

More forgiving of issues.


----------



## Skyval

Preference might play a role too. My switches were pretty firm, more firm than my DA3.5G, but I liked them that way. Maybe I'll like Huano switches








I didn't care for their shape, but I didn't mind it either. Position wasn't great, but it didn't seem as horrible as some people made it out to be. The main reason why I returned the mouse was its shell shape. It did not feel good for my fingertip grip.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, those look like mine. "Pointed" yes, "sharp" no.


----------



## c0dy

Well "good" thing



And where the dream ends



Won't get it for that price obv.
















Must be some kind of mistake









That's 121$ while it is only 67$ on Amazon.com


----------



## EvenR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> Well "good" thing
> 
> 
> 
> And where the dream ends
> 
> 
> 
> Won't get it for that price obv.


WOW! That's waaay too expensive. I was gonna get it but not now.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *c0dy*
> 
> Well "good" thing
> 
> 
> 
> And where the dream ends
> 
> 
> 
> Won't get it for that price obv.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must be some kind of mistake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's 121$ while it is only 67$ on Amazon.com


ez


----------



## Sencha

LOL i'm out at that price. £50 I may have dropped. But even then.


----------



## Gylfen

What the hell? Well if thats the price then im out.

Seems like they dont even ship to Sweden.


----------



## EvenR

Why is it that on amazon.com it costs 67 usd but on amazon.co.uk it costs equal to 122 usd? It's almost twice the price i mean what the hell is going on?!

EDIT: On amazon.co.uk there's also a 7.5 usd delivery on top of the 122 usd for the mouse.


----------



## rmp459

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Got some play time in and it's clear that the sensor is not tracking properly on my HDPE surface. Clear stutters in small, slow movements. Tracks perfectly on the Hiro 3D.
> 
> Grip is great but the side buttons and the tracking issue is forcing me to return it. A $70 mouse shouldn't have these issues. My G402 and G303 tracks perfectly. I am fairly confident that the Mionix Avior 7000 tracks well too. My friend has a similar surface and he did not mention the stutters. So it has to be an implementation issue.


What surface are you usinig? I don't know if its quite the same, but i've been using a 9HD since I got my FM and it seems to track fine.


----------



## lansnygg

Haha, I literally started laughing when I saw the price of the final mouse at https://www.amazon.co.uk/. There is not one chance that I, as a EU customer, will pay that price when people here report that they still receive mice that are defective. Maybe, and only maybe, I would consider buying the mouse at the price of 69 euro.

I genuinely believe that final mouse as a company would benefit from lowering the price on the final mouse. By lowering the price, people are more likely to buy the mouse, and in that way you would receive more feedback which can be used to improve the mouse. The current price suggests that you are selling it in order to make profit. However, that might not be the best strategy in the long run.

This is all too bad. I was really excited to try this mouse.


----------



## Kroah

The dispatcher/seller is Electronics Monster.

Don't you think he isn't the official "FinalMouse" dispatcher and try to get pre-orders at double price until the official one come in ?


----------



## espk

Jude would you consider returns for squeaky right clicks? This is very annoying after buying from the new batch


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kroah*
> 
> The dispatcher/seller is Electronics Monster.
> 
> Don't you think he isn't the official "FinalMouse" dispatcher and try to get pre-orders at double price until the official one come in ?


I'm hoping its just a cheeky seller


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> I'm hoping its just a cheeky seller


It is.

This is not an authorized seller. We are still waiting on the EU launch this week. We will try and do something to solve this confusion.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Sencha

that's good to know

*puts pitchfork away and extinguishes touch.


----------



## Khaotik55

Just got the new version, never had the old.

Most annoying thing about it is my back side button collapses into the body of the mouse if I push it too hard near the back. It sometimes even gets stuck in there and I have to whack it on the pad to free the button...

Front side button is solid no matter how hard you push, front end of back is too, but rear end of back button just makes the whole thing go in. This normal? Feels like crap.


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Khaotik55*
> 
> Just got the new version, never had the old.
> 
> Most annoying thing about it is my back side button collapses into the body of the mouse if I push it too hard near the back. It sometimes even gets stuck in there and I have to whack it on the pad to free the button...
> 
> Front side button is solid no matter how hard you push, front end of back is too, but rear end of back button just makes the whole thing go in. This normal? Feels like crap.


I get that too. Just... Don't press too hard, I guess. XD


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Khaotik55*
> 
> Just got the new version, never had the old.
> 
> Most annoying thing about it is my back side button collapses into the body of the mouse if I push it too hard near the back. It sometimes even gets stuck in there and I have to whack it on the pad to free the button...
> 
> Front side button is solid no matter how hard you push, front end of back is too, but rear end of back button just makes the whole thing go in. This normal? Feels like crap.


Rma it then.


----------



## cadger

Just ended up buying this. Will get it today too. Anyone use it with a PureTrak Talent? Wondering what kind of LOD you get with it.


----------



## Vantavia

Is this our punishment for being in the EU? I actually forgot about the finalmouse and just started using my old g100s instead. It's going to take some convincing not to get a g303 at this point which has a superior sensor with no accel, the only thing stopping me is the stupid shape.


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> Just ended up buying this. Will get it today too. Anyone use it with a PureTrak Talent? Wondering what kind of LOD you get with it.


I've been using a white PureTrak Talent and while I haven't measured it, it feels pretty low. I've had a few (3) instances of the sensor just spassing out so it might actually have trouble with the white. I'll try it on the regular Puretrak Talent tonight and give you a measurement then.


----------



## Khaotik55

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *edyago*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Khaotik55*
> 
> Just got the new version, never had the old.
> 
> Most annoying thing about it is my back side button collapses into the body of the mouse if I push it too hard near the back. It sometimes even gets stuck in there and I have to whack it on the pad to free the button...
> 
> Front side button is solid no matter how hard you push, front end of back is too, but rear end of back button just makes the whole thing go in. This normal? Feels like crap.
> 
> 
> 
> I get that too. Just... Don't press too hard, I guess. XD
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Khaotik55*
> 
> Just got the new version, never had the old.
> 
> Most annoying thing about it is my back side button collapses into the body of the mouse if I push it too hard near the back. It sometimes even gets stuck in there and I have to whack it on the pad to free the button...
> 
> Front side button is solid no matter how hard you push, front end of back is too, but rear end of back button just makes the whole thing go in. This normal? Feels like crap.
> 
> 
> 
> Rma it then.
Click to expand...

I got one guy saying his is like that too, and you saying RMA it with no input whatsoever.

I have a feeling it's just the design of the mouse. If yours doesn't do that, I'd like a video if you would please of you pushing firm on the back of the rear side button.


----------



## Axaion

unless youre bending plastic to get it stuck with excessive force...

RMA it.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> Just ended up buying this. Will get it today too. Anyone use it with a PureTrak Talent? Wondering what kind of LOD you get with it.


I have a PT Talent & i personally love how it tracks. I haven't had any sensor issues by any means. Still have to decide which i like it on more the PT Talent or Qck Heavy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Khaotik55*
> 
> I got one guy saying his is like that too, and you saying RMA it with no input whatsoever.
> 
> I have a feeling it's just the design of the mouse. If yours doesn't do that, I'd like a video if you would please of you pushing firm on the back of the rear side button.


Nope i do not have this issue, i'm currently pushing as hard as i can just to see if it may happen. All good over here.


----------



## cadger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> I have a PT Talent & i personally love how it tracks. I haven't had any sensor issues by any means. Still have to decide which i like it on more the PT Talent or Qck Heavy.
> Nope i do not have this issue, i'm currently pushing as hard as i can just to see if it may happen. All good over here.


What kind of LOD are you getting? I hate high LOD


----------



## Tyhan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Khaotik55*
> 
> I have a feeling it's just the design of the mouse. If yours doesn't do that, I'd like a video if you would please of you pushing firm on the back of the rear side button.


I have had 3 finalmouses, a pre-release test version my friend gave me after he got a replacement for the LED dying, one I ordered myself after that one's sensor died, and the summer edition replacement I got for mine after the one I ordered had its sensor die.

None of them have had this issue.


----------



## cadger

Just got the mouse and played a few games with it. I'm actually really enjoying it and pretty much have only used ambidextrous mice for the past 5 years. The LOD is pretty short not Zowie short but enough that I can use it. Seems to track well no malfunctions yet, the clicks are nice on M1 and M2. The big thing for me is I can't beleive how light the mouse is for it's size. It makes my FK seem heavy now. My only real down sides as of now are not being able to turn the LEDs off and there being a small piece of plastic left on the right mouse button that I will have to sand off.


----------



## banjogood

Does anyone else feel like the real DPI of their finalmouse is really low? Coming from my IMO1.1 I had to switch my sens from 2.35 to 2.7 for it to feel similar.

I also want to add that the mouse feels very accurate but it's different from an mlt04. I'm pretty sure it's due to what qsxcv has pointed out about making straight lines. I would still say mlt04 > finalmouse but considering the insane PCS, low latency of clicks, no double-click issue, no scrollwheel issue.. finalmouse > any mlt04 mouse


----------



## qsxcv

probably because sensor position is quite a bit lower on fm than on wmo and ime3.0


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> probably because sensor position is quite a bit lower on fm than on wmo and ime3.0


Having experience with an IO 1.1A and FM, that is correct. Also the dpi is not going to be exactly as advertised.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> probably because sensor position is quite a bit lower on fm than on wmo and ime3.0


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Having experience with an IO 1.1A and FM, that is correct. Also the dpi is not going to be exactly as advertised.


I was aware DPI is not exactly as advertised but I didnt think of sensor positioning making such a big difference. Good to know ty.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> What kind of LOD are you getting? I hate high LOD


Mine is low. I don't like a high lift off either. I feel it's a smiiiiidge higher on the PT compared to my QCK heavy, but it is not bad by any means.


----------



## mrvirtualboy

I recently got my hands on the original, and might I say 74g is heavenly. The sensor feels just like every other 3310 I've used, so I'm not feeling the magic everyone else is, but I really appreciate the low weight. That alone makes me feel a lot more precise/accurate in-game.

I put the spare set of feet that came with my ZA12 over the feet on the bottom because I was getting a ton of drag and it didn't cause any tracking issues on a Goliathus Control. LOD is lower now.


----------



## edyago

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> Just ended up buying this. Will get it today too. Anyone use it with a PureTrak Talent? Wondering what kind of LOD you get with it.


Original Puretrak is probably around 1.5CDs. Puretrak Talent white is 1 CD. QCK is 1CD.


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Ah so that is the second insane thing. I just found it amusing that he complained about an issue that the video says is now fixed. I didn't keep updated with the FM much as I think I clearly stated that I think it is too expensive anyway. Thought they released the FW by now?


Ino, the firmware update is still unavailable...

What do you make of this?


----------



## EvenR

anyone got a suggestion for a good mousepad for the finalmouse?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> Ino, the firmware update is still unavailable...
> 
> What do you make of this?


Well, I don't understand it. With the SE rolling out you'd think they'd release the FW to fix the old one publicly.


----------



## cadger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> anyone got a suggestion for a good mousepad for the finalmouse?


PureTrak is working well. What pad do you use? If i own it, I'll try it out for you.


----------



## Tyhan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> anyone got a suggestion for a good mousepad for the finalmouse?


My steelseries QCK works fine, but hell it tracks perfectly fine on my scratched up wooden desk if I wanted to do that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Well, I don't understand it. With the SE rolling out you'd think they'd release the FW to fix the old one publicly.


Isn't the firmware in the original and summer edition the same? The difference is a hardware change to fix whatever was breaking the sensor.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Well, I don't understand it. With the SE rolling out you'd think they'd release the FW to fix the old one publicly.


Hello,

The SROM update for the previous version has been available for sometime. It just isn't posted on the site for download, however anyone can receive it by contacting customer support . This is just to make sure people get the proper instructions firsthand so they do not break their mouse, or inadvertently update an srom on the SE that did not need it.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tyhan*
> 
> My steelseries QCK works fine, but hell it tracks perfectly fine on my scratched up wooden desk if I wanted to do that.
> Isn't the firmware in the original and summer edition the same? The difference is a hardware change to fix whatever was breaking the sensor.


Hello ,

You are correct. The SROM update was only for fixing DPI Inconsistency/changing issues.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## EvenR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> PureTrak is working well. What pad do you use? If i own it, I'll try it out for you.


Im using a Qck Heavy at the moement, but i'm not too happy about it since it's resistance is far greater on the y axis than than the x.


----------



## cadger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> Im using a Qck Heavy at the moement, but i'm not too happy about it since it's resistance is far greater on the y axis than than the x.


That happens to almost all cloth pads with use though. You can either get a new one or try a different pad but it will happen at some point due to use.


----------



## EvenR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cadger*
> 
> That happens to almost all cloth pads with use though. You can either get a new one or try a different pad but it will happen at some point due to use.


I don't think it's due to use because then it would make sense that it would get less smooth along the x axis. In fact i've had this gripe about it since i got it.


----------



## EvenR

So when can we expect the FinalMouse to be available in eu?


----------



## c0dy

Well, last week their support wrote
Quote:


> The FinalMouse will release in Europe early next week!
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support


guess there still are problems with customs. Or that other seller on amazon maybe?


----------



## c0dy

Just gonna add another post for this









Gotta be fast boys


----------



## EvenR

Boom got it! Thank you c0dy!


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello,

Seems you guys got the news before I did. Looks like European availability is up.

Kind regards,
Jude


----------



## milkbreak

My first SE Finalmouse had overly sensitive buttons (they would trigger when the mouse was set down), it took *two weeks* for the replacement to arrive and the first thing I see when I pull the mouse out of the box is a completely chewed up mousewheel. I'm so disappointed right now.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *milkbreak*
> 
> My first SE Finalmouse had overly sensitive buttons (they would trigger when the mouse was set down), it took *two weeks* for the replacement to arrive and the first thing I see when I pull the mouse out of the box is a completely chewed up mousewheel. I'm so disappointed right now.


Hello Milkbreak,

I'm sorry to hear that. Please contact support and let them know of this unfortunate circumstance you are in. They will make sure to expedite this process for you and hopefully you can atleast use this SE in the meantime.

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> anyone got a suggestion for a good mousepad for the finalmouse?


Supermat is the only mousepad anyone who doesn't need something larger than 17x13" should get.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Supermat is the only mousepad anyone who doesn't need something larger than 17x13" should get.


I use the Perixx XXL because I need a 35"x17" mousepad.


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I use the Perixx XXL because I need a 35"x17" mousepad.


Ordered a Corepad XXXXL because I need two 60x60 cm pads


----------



## aayman_farzand

Anyone else wants to share thoughts on the coating of the FM?

To compare I've been using the 402 and 303, and it seems that the FM coating retains oil from my hand whereas it's not an issue. I played a CSGO match with the G303 and the FM, it is easily spottable. FM always ends up looking like it needs to be cleaned but the 303 is fine.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Supermat is the only mousepad anyone *inside the US* who doesn't need something larger than 17x13" should get.


Fixed that for you. Yup, I know it's hard to believe, but there's more world than the US, lol.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Anyone else wants to share thoughts on the coating of the FM?
> 
> To compare I've been using the 402 and 303, and it seems that the FM coating retains oil from my hand whereas it's not an issue. I played a CSGO match with the G303 and the FM, it is easily spottable. FM always ends up looking like it needs to be cleaned but the 303 is fine.


Coating is just fine to me. I do clean the mouse after a week or so though just out of habit.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Trull*
> 
> Fixed that for you. Yup, I know it's hard to believe, but there's more world than the US, lol.


They're on ebay too.

I bet there's something like it sold in local stores in Europe though.


----------



## czerro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> The SROM update for the previous version has been available for sometime. It just isn't posted on the site for download, however anyone can receive it by contacting customer support . This is just to make sure people get the proper instructions firsthand so they do not break their mouse, or inadvertently update an srom on the SE that did not need it.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


It has supposedly been available for some time. You guys slayed me here when I brought these issues up initially.

Your solution is that someone contact you for a fix you contested for months did not exist. You now admit it does exist, but is easily correctible. This can be corrected by contacting customer support which will send you instructions that can just as easily be posted online. You are not taking human error out of this equation at all by concealing it. It's a very bland ruse.

This suggests a couple things. You still want to sell a defective inventory, by concealing it is defective, OR you don't actually care to fix your mouse but want to sell the 2015 version of the Finalmouse. You don't realize how silly that is? It didn't even take you a year to release a corrected edition of your mouse, and you claim that there is a firmware update to fix THE FINALMOUSE, but the internet cannot contain this text. Obviously, you need to go through a back and forth with your customer service department so they can eventually EMAIL YOU A TEXT and THE FIRMWARE. You are just making this complicated and obfuscated.

What is it about an unnecessary validation process for a fix that IS, by your own admission, now necessary for the mouse to work correctly? You will eventually release the firmware update as you previously promised months ago. It infact exists?

I'd say everything you are doing suggests it does not.


----------



## QLsya

Good news for guys in EU, It's now available on amazon.co.uk. Price is also much more reasonable at £53 / 73 Euros.

Just placed my order









http://www.amazon.co.uk/FinalMouse-2015/dp/B00MX8QSLW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434109698&sr=8-1&keywords=finalmouse

That crazy other seller still has his at £80 lol.


----------



## Trull

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> They're on ebay too.
> 
> I bet there's something like it sold in local stores in Europe though.


US eBay.

There probably is, but who knows...


----------



## espk

Well I guess I'm going back to my g303. What a waste







Maybe I'll try again in a few months but right now the squeaking is annoying enough to make me want to switch mice between games


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Coating is just fine to me. I do clean the mouse after a week or so though just out of habit.


If I waited a week, it would look quite disgusting. I'm pretty much doing it everyday that I use it. Gets quite annoying.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> It has supposedly been available for some time. You guys slayed me here when I brought these issues up initially.
> 
> Your solution is that someone contact you for a fix you contested for months did not exist. You now admit it does exist, but is easily correctible. This can be corrected by contacting customer support which will send you instructions that can just as easily be posted online. You are not taking human error out of this equation at all by concealing it. It's a very bland ruse.
> 
> This suggests a couple things. You still want to sell a defective inventory, by concealing it is defective, OR you don't actually care to fix your mouse but want to sell the 2015 version of the Finalmouse. You don't realize how silly that is? It didn't even take you a year to release a corrected edition of your mouse, and you claim that there is a firmware update to fix THE FINALMOUSE, but the internet cannot contain this text. Obviously, you need to go through a back and forth with your customer service department so they can eventually EMAIL YOU A TEXT and THE FIRMWARE. You are just making this complicated and obfuscated.
> 
> What is it about an unnecessary validation process for a fix that IS, by your own admission, now necessary for the mouse to work correctly? You will eventually release the firmware update as you previously promised months ago. It infact exists?
> 
> I'd say everything you are doing suggests it does not.


Others here have used the firmware. So it exists.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> If I waited a week, it would look quite disgusting. I'm pretty much doing it everyday that I use it. Gets quite annoying.


Clean that sucker up then. Mine usually get's a clean after a week as i said, i do keep looking at it quite often to see if it needs a wipe down.


----------



## Deku

Can someone check the click latency of this please?


----------



## 7Teku

Well, the lights on the mouse stay on even after I've put my computer to sleep.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> Well, the lights on the mouse stay on even after I've put my computer to sleep.


something BIOS something.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> Well, the lights on the mouse stay on even after I've put my computer to sleep.


Everyone likes a good night light. Lol


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deku*
> 
> Can someone check the click latency of this please?


The mouse has a very low latency, one of the lowest, another positive about the mouse. Why does yours seem to be having some issues?


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> something BIOS something.


It doesn't happen in any of my other mice.


----------



## Sencha

I've had it where plugging in different mice can have different power states set in the OS. It may be worth checking in mouse properties that its not set to wake the puter.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> It doesn't happen in any of my other mice.


I think all my mice stayed on when I used them on someone else's PC. Or was that my keyboard? I don't remember.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> Well, the lights on the mouse stay on even after I've put my computer to sleep.


probably because the leds are hard wired to the usb power lines instead of being controlled by the mcu
just disable the "charge during sleep" whatever in bios if you can


----------



## Deku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> The mouse has a very low latency, one of the lowest, another positive about the mouse. Why does yours seem to be having some issues?


I dont have the mouse yet, I thought of buying it but I didnt see anyone doing tests about the click latency yet.
When i switched from a Zowie FK1 to Logitech g303 i found out that click latency is a huge factor for me (mainly sniping in games).

Thanks for the answer although some numbers would be nice tho


----------



## c0dy

Won't be able to get mine for some time as Amazon is unable to process my payment. Welp. Maybe someday









Maybe if somebody want's to sell his somewhere around Germany


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deku*
> 
> Can someone check the click latency of this please?


The Click latency is low, check out the page 6 of this thread, somebody tested the click latency against g502 there..


----------



## dwnfall

How easy is this mouse to click? I play LoL so the 303 seems the best but the shape seems sketchy for long play sessions.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dwnfall*
> 
> How easy is this mouse to click? I play LoL so the 303 seems the best but the shape seems sketchy for long play sessions.


303 is solid everywhere besides that horrid ass shape.


----------



## EvenR

Just received my Finalmouse today and i'm loving the weight, sensor and shape. It could be my go-to mouse if it wasn't for a few things with the build quality.

Scroll wheel and side buttons are loose and the finalmouse logo is so bright it's like a spotlight in my face whenever i take my hand off the mouse.

The scroll wheel is well-lit without it seeming like a light bulb turned in my direction, but i makes a lot of noise as i shake the mouse.

I'm going to return the mouse. I'm guessing i have to return it with amazon.co.uk where i bought it, or can i contact finalmouse directly and maybe save some time?


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> I'm going to return the mouse. I'm guessing i have to return it with amazon.co.uk where i bought it, or can i contact finalmouse directly and maybe save some time?


can returning something be less time consuming, than returning to amazon?


----------



## EvenR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thuNDa*
> 
> can returning something be less time consuming, than returning to amazon?


Oh, if i want to get a replacement... I'm not returning to refund it just yet.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Also since there seems to be a couple individuals here who prefer to have more choice on their sensor settings, I'm asking for permission to see if I can release several firmware flashers here. Obviously these flashers will come with a strict disclaimer that says it is not how the finalmouse is meant to be utilized, and is not the desired tracking feeling we found our In house pros to enjoy... That being said I will try and release the following firmware:
> 
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


so...
any updates?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I put some tape over the rear LED. The side buttons on the SE are definitely worse quality than the previous 3 originals I used. The sensor issues seem to be completely fixed, both in 3D games and 2D. I have a bit more testing to do in CS 1.6, but so far it seems like I might never use my 3.0 again.

And I think I can actually tell the difference between 500 and 1000hz _(applying some extra tweaks that made it more stable made the difference)_. Even on the desktop, the cursor feels slightly tighter. I can see why people might prefer 500 though. 1000 almost feels too stiff.


----------



## Maximillion

Welp, Kohler finally completed his epic 10+ year journey in finding a 3.0 replacement. I guess he's gonna fade into oblivion now. I'm gonna miss you, brother









I'll always remember you whenever I see an $8 Supermat.


----------



## espgodson

Hope I get the new version soon! I put in a support ticket and was granted a replacement and was asked for address but no confirmation response.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Ehh, the search isn't completely over yet. We need a way to use the scroll wheel to change DPI in increments of 50, hopefully without detrimentally affecting the tracking... The build quality needs improvement, the middle click is too stiff, the wheel needs to be farther forward so it's useable with the middle finger, the side buttons aren't clickable without releasing grip, and the overall shape could be improved. But the mouse seems to be generally better than the 3.0 in most ways (weight, native 500hz, no wheel glitch, more dpi options, higher malfunction speed).


----------



## daav1d

Just got mine. I have not tested it yet, used opened the box. My initial impressions:

Pros:

- Low weight
- Grip seems good for being rubber coating, still nice that they didn't use it on the sides.
- Very easy M1 & M2 buttons. They felt a bit uneven but not a big deal.

Cons:

- Shape seems pretty bad, right side should be more straight imo. Feels like it forces your hand to palm it.
- Scroll wheel is not very tactile.
- Overall bad quality. Dragged the mouse over my mouse pad (Zowie G-SR) and there were two places on the shell that had sharp edges that scraped the pad. (Will try it on my Qpad UC50 which I don't care about, if it's even worth fixing)

Other:

- Sidebuttons did not feel as bad as I expected. Most people seems to dislike them.

Right now it feels like I will stick to my Zowie ZA11, but I could be wrong. Will test it ASAP.


----------



## EvenR

So, has anyone actually got a Finalmouse where everything is in it's place and the sensor is stable?

There are so many users here reporting flaws, that it seems more like the rule than the exception.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> We need a way to use the scroll wheel to change DPI in increments of 50, hopefully without detrimentally affecting the tracking...


don't worry about that. if the dpi button doesn't affect tracking, there's absolutely no reason using a scroll wheel + some button would be any different.
well
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> As long as your engineer isn't mentally challenged


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I was guessing that somewhere in the various customizations that different companies do with their mice, they are affecting the tracking, since they all have different customizations, and all have different sensor performance.

Like wouldn't there have to be extra lines of code and maybe even hardware changes in order to implement something like that?

You make it sound like it would be very simple =)


----------



## Jonagold

I fixed the left side curve -problem with this kind of modification:

Now the force from my thumb is actually pointing straight towards right, not inconsistently up or down angled..


----------



## MaximilianKohler

What is the material that you used? I did the same thing with a piece I cut off a dishwashing sponge + electric tape over it.


----------



## Br3chtel

Looks like a piece chunked out of a skateboard, grinded for shape and held with a screw


----------



## Jonagold

It is just veneer, I made it after work in a school woodwork class.. The difficult part was to make it to fit in the slope.. Wood was the best choice because of light weight and hardness.. soft or spongy materials would cause more inconsistency..


----------



## ramraze

So, does anyone know if the SE of the FM has actually improved build quality and less qc issues?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

In my experience the build quality is worse. But it might just be due to random luck as many people were making complaints about the original and I never experienced any issues till the SE. Based on the fact that my SE doesn't have any of the sensor problems that my 3 originals did, I would guess that the qc issues are fixed.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> So, has anyone actually got a Finalmouse where everything is in it's place and the sensor is stable?
> 
> There are so many users here reporting flaws, that it seems more like the rule than the exception.


My mouse is straight. No issues whatsoever. I had a few issues with my previous ones but SE came & hasn't disappointed.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EvenR*
> 
> So, has anyone actually got a Finalmouse where everything is in it's place and the sensor is stable?
> 
> There are so many users here reporting flaws, that it seems more like the rule than the exception.


I've said before in this thread, this is not the mouse for someone who wants perfect build quality. It is precisely a cheap oem shell with a very good sensor implementation and omron switches for the primary buttons.

The side buttons are not good, finalmouse knows this as evidenced by their 2016 prototype which re-engineers the side buttons, and also upgrades their switches to omron.

On my personal mouse, I had to add a layer to the left front mouse foot to level out the mouse due to shell not recessing the right mouse foot the same level. The right mouse button is a bit sloppy, and my scroll wheel will rattle in about 10-15% of its positions.

That all taken into consideration, I still use it as my primary mouse, because I can't deal with the Huano switches on Zowie, and the Logitech ergo mice are all much heavier. I would like to see FinalMouse release the 500/1000hz MCU smoothing off/on firmwares promised earlier in the thread, but I believe for the most part they are on the right path to a good mouse but are dealing with the pain of not having much experience in Chinese manufacturing and being a small operation selling a niche product to the pickiest demographic possible.


----------



## EvenR

Thanks for the response. I personally have no gripe with the oem shape besides maybe the right side curving in like that. Makes it very narrow. If however they could just make sure it stays in place before shipping, it would be a nice improvement. The rattling scroll wheel is really annoying and i'd guess very common on the FM.


----------



## PU skunk

This wheel doesn't rattle but it's hard to press. But like every mouse I've owned, this mouse tracks on a slant ( just the way I hold them ). I've searched everywhere for a fix so I might as well ask here. Anybody miss that little mouse orientation box in Windows?

Btw, I've been reading this thread from the start and learned a bunch.


----------



## tramas

Guys, I'm a claw grip user, will this mouse fit with my grip? Or is it more palm users-oriented due to its ergonomic design?


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tramas*
> 
> Guys, I'm a claw grip user, will this mouse fit with my grip? Or is it more palm users-oriented due to its ergonomic design?


I use it with a fingertip grip, I like the ergo design to keep my wrist slightly tilted.


----------



## Jonagold

If you modify the leftside slope away, you will be able to use all grippingstyles comfortably..


----------



## Ellie1982

My FM15 died for some weeks ago - i'm started my PC, the mouse lightning is on, but nothing else happened... Great mouse, really!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I've said before in this thread, this is not the mouse for someone who wants perfect build quality. It is precisely a cheap oem shell with a very good sensor implementation and omron switches for the primary buttons.
> 
> The side buttons are not good, finalmouse knows this as evidenced by their 2016 prototype which re-engineers the side buttons, and also upgrades their switches to omron.
> 
> On my personal mouse, I had to add a layer to the left front mouse foot to level out the mouse due to shell not recessing the right mouse foot the same level. The right mouse button is a bit sloppy, and my scroll wheel will rattle in about 10-15% of its positions.
> 
> That all taken into consideration, I still use it as my primary mouse, because I can't deal with the Huano switches on Zowie, and the Logitech ergo mice are all much heavier. I would like to see FinalMouse release the 500/1000hz MCU smoothing off/on firmwares promised earlier in the thread, but I believe for the most part they are on the right path to a good mouse but are dealing with the pain of not having much experience in Chinese manufacturing and being a small operation selling a niche product to the pickiest demographic possible.


I have same problems, that's a real quality of this product.


----------



## bank1997

Ellie1982 your fm that dies week agowhen do you purchase and is it a summer edition? If it is you should ask for replacement


----------



## Ellie1982

No, it's old version.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Either way it has a 3 year warranty.


----------



## anachronton

Rubber on left side, glossy on right, what is the logic behind this combination? I was seriously contemplating about buying Finalmouse, but thanks to a YT review I remembered why I sold my Imperator after a brief tryout: loved the shape, hated the glossyness.

ATM my goto mouse is a Zowie one, but lighter clicks would be appreciated.


----------



## benllok

Well I've been using my FM15SE for 3 days or so. I'm quite happy with it and this is going to be my main one from now on.

My hand is 18.5cm in lenght and I have a claw/palm grip style. I've used a MX518 for 5 years, G100s for 3 months, Deathadder shortly, IME1.1A for 6 months.

My thoughts on FM2015SE:

Good:
+ Low weight
+ Sensor performance is great
+ Nice shape (I've used a MX518 for many years so I like the shape)
+ Coating is nice and glossy side doesn't bother my grip
+ Nice and responsive main buttons
+ Low LOD
+ Very low button/clicking latency
+ Cord is braided and very thin which I like a lot

Bad:
- Logo light is too bright
- Scrollwheel click requires more pressure (or maybe I'm too used to Intellimice where it's so soft)
- Mouse lights are always on, even after PC is turned off (didn't happen with previous mice)
- Side buttons wobble when I'm tapping them, not actuating them just touching repetitively

Neutral
* Scrollwheel is similar to the one in a DeathAdder and doesn't wobble in most steps
* Side buttons are a bit stiff or firm when I press/actuate them. Shape and position don't bother me at all
* I had to increase in-game sensitivity from 1.8 to 2.1 so I can mimic IME1.1a movement


----------



## anachronton

Does the glossy right side actully help some people (while the other side is rubber)?


----------



## mrvirtualboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *anachronton*
> 
> Does the glossy right side actully help some people (while the other side is rubber)?


I'd say "rubber" on the side of mine is like a satin finish. It has glossy qualities, but it's not completely glossy like the side where my ring and pinky fingers go. I think it's a nice compromise between glossy and matte. Very "grippy" for me.


----------



## anachronton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrvirtualboy*
> I'd say "rubber" on the side of mine is like a satin finish. It has glossy qualities, but it's not completely glossy like the side where my ring and pinky fingers go. I think it's a nice compromise between glossy and matte. Very "grippy" for me.


Thanks for the feedback, I stand corrected! If I remember correctly, the left side of Imperator was glossy, so FM changed that somewhat to achieve better grip. Right side for some reason seems to have been left untouched.


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *anachronton*
> 
> Does the glossy right side actully help some people (while the other side is rubber)?


I want all my mice to be fully glossy. Much better grip than any rubber coating I have tried.


----------



## anachronton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> I want all my mice to be fully glossy. Much better grip than any rubber coating I have tried.


I am aware of that preference. I actully didn't question glossy as such, I wondered why material choice one side is quite different from another in case of FM. Do they think that when playing, my fingers would be quite sweaty, EXCEPT my little finger (so they make the right side glossy)?

Imperator at least made sense in that regard because both of its sides were glossy.


----------



## Jonagold

Just got to try this Final Mouse for real (after modding the shape).. I wondered why the mouse movement felt so sluggish and I kept missing all "quick-correct" -shots in csgo.. Then I recorded a demo and played it in slow-motion, every time the bullet left the barrel before my correction-move arrived to the head..

This mouse has too much input lag in movement. Maybe its just that Logitech has spoiled me with their flawless hardware (smoothing<1ms), shame that they don't use sensible shapes in their flagship products tho..


----------



## qsxcv

demos have even more input lag and timing issues

try recording with afterburner while playing


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> demos have even more input lag and timing issues
> 
> try recording with afterburner while playing


Aren't POV demos the same as seeing what's on screen in real time?

Edit: Actually yea he didn't mention whether he saw a GOTV demo or POV.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Aren't POV demos the same as seeing what's on screen in real time?
> 
> Edit: Actually yea he didn't mention whether he saw a GOTV demo or POV.


demos get iffy because of update rate and how the demos are played back, almost all games have an issue, quake had lag issues, cs has tick rate issues. basically sometimes there isn't enough information in the aiming movement, meaning there's data missing. it's fine for some things, but if you're trying to determine tracking issues with mice, you're using a tool that's presenting less information than what's available. It's better to use another form of recording like video, anything that shows raw data.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

If your FM feels more sluggish than other mice you probably got a bad one.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Aren't POV demos the same as seeing what's on screen in real time?
> 
> Edit: Actually yea he didn't mention whether he saw a GOTV demo or POV.


theyre both inconsistent in my experience


----------



## PU skunk

Maybe the update Jude is looking in to would eliminate the processing uncovered.
It seems responsive to me but that probably doesn't mean much. Wish I had a high speed camera.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Just got to try this Final Mouse for real (after modding the shape).. I wondered why the mouse movement felt so sluggish and I kept missing all "quick-correct" -shots in csgo.. Then I recorded a demo and played it in slow-motion, every time the bullet left the barrel before my correction-move arrived to the head..
> 
> This mouse has too much input lag in movement. Maybe its just that Logitech has spoiled me with their flawless hardware (smoothing<1ms), shame that they don't use sensible shapes in their flagship products tho..


Move first, shoot second (to put it in as few words as possible). That's how I play with an Intellimouse. I don't play that way with a Zowie, so I tend to mess up with it when I get tired.

I might buy a few MLT mice to use as a tool for maintaining technique.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> demos get iffy because of update rate and how the demos are played back, almost all games have an issue, quake had lag issues, cs has tick rate issues. basically sometimes there isn't enough information in the aiming movement, meaning there's data missing. it's fine for some things, but if you're trying to determine tracking issues with mice, you're using a tool that's presenting less information than what's available. It's better to use another form of recording like video, anything that shows raw data.


A POV demo, at 128 tick, with cl_interpolate 0, is fine if you have stable FPS.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> Maybe the update Jude is looking in to would eliminate the processing uncovered.
> It seems responsive to me but that probably doesn't mean much. Wish I had a high speed camera.


I don't think they want to remove the filtering from the MCU. I think that is what makes people feel like the mouse is better than other 3310 mice.

Maybe what Jonagold is experiencing is the combination of the 3310's code and the FM's MCU filtering.


----------



## Jonagold

I was using 128 tic POV -demo, and there was a clear pattern with those bullets i missed, the mouse didn't quite proceed the quick correction movement in time and the movement continued on the head after the bullet was already left.. demo also showed crosshair being on the enemy head on the time of bullet releasing when headshot was registered in-game so it seemed to be fairly accurate..

You cant really think something that is in your muscle memory, Having thousands of hours already played on the one style I don't wanna waste it away only to adjust for another mouse with decreased performance..

Somebody should really do a test with highspeed 1000fps camera moving the mouse towards one direction then changing the direction while having camera to show both your mouse and 144hz monitor screen, then calculate how many milliseconds it took for the cursor to change its direction on screen after mouse changed it's direction in real life.. Then just do it with different mice to see how much there is difference..


----------



## qsxcv

i can almost guarantee you that the difference between mice is less than 5ms

its more likely that youre just not used to the sensor positioning or something


----------



## wareya

My FM keeps having very occasional sets of no response. At first I thought this was because of my USB hub so I removed it and the problem seemed to have gone away, but really it didn't, so now I'm sitting here trying to figure out what might cause this. This didn't happen to any of my other mice, even my DA running at 500hz itself. I will note, however, that unplugging and plugging-back-in my DA would cause my DA to have regular resynchronizations with the drivers and cause it to lock up for a full second or two every few minutes and I would have to reboot (I would eventually fullscreen after doing that anyway). But this isn't my DA, and there doesn't seem to be any synchronization happening, and this was first happening to my FM without unplugging my DA. I emailed support in the early afternoon and will continue to wait for a response. I'll reboot tomorrow morning to see if it works around the problem.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i can almost guarantee you that the difference between mice is less than 5ms


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Same sensor with new settings.
> 
> CPI steps are 240-4000 in steps of 80 - so you can get native 400/800/1600/etc.
> 
> CPI range was extended, but there is still zero smoothing at 2000 CPI and below. 2080 CPI and above implement 4 frames (<1ms) of smoothing in order to mitigate ripple. *Sensors with smoothing levels that people find problematic are typically around 4-7ms*.


----------



## Jonagold

I don't see how minimal difference in sensor position would cause any problem in very short movements, it rather affects to your longer swipes where you also move your wrist-angle.. I keep testing to see if I find other reasons for this odd behavior..


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> My FM keeps having very occasional sets of no response. At first I thought this was because of my USB hub so I removed it and the problem seemed to have gone away, but really it didn't, so now I'm sitting here trying to figure out what might cause this. This didn't happen to any of my other mice, even my DA running at 500hz itself. I will note, however, that unplugging and plugging-back-in my DA would cause my DA to have regular resynchronizations with the drivers and cause it to lock up for a full second or two every few minutes and I would have to reboot (I would eventually fullscreen after doing that anyway). But this isn't my DA, and there doesn't seem to be any synchronization happening, and this was first happening to my FM without unplugging my DA. I emailed support in the early afternoon and will continue to wait for a response. I'll reboot tomorrow morning to see if it works around the problem.


In non-SE FMs there were issues with micro freezes. But if you're mouse is having a dead cursor for longer than half a second it's probably dying like mine did.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> In non-SE FMs there were issues with micro freezes. But if you're mouse is having a dead cursor for longer than half a second it's probably dying like mine did.


It's probably only for half a second at most, but I can't tell since it's sudden and random.

It's a SE FM, it only just arrived yesterday.

Going to reboot and see what happens.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Hmm, that's no good... makes me wonder if the issue is actually fixed or maybe I just got lucky with mine.

Can you post some graphs. http://www.overclock.net/t/1552218/zowie-za-11-12-13-mouse/550_50#post_23887942 - http://www.overclock.net/t/1552218/zowie-za-11-12-13-mouse/800_50#post_23912488


----------



## baskinghobo

Is it true this mouse has smoothing at the srom level somebody was saying here before?


----------



## wareya

My mousetester for a swipe looks normal for a cheap mousepad:

http://i.imgur.com/vWhzVX0.png

Something I don't like about mousetester is that it doesn't render points that are too close to other points.

Side note: When I rebooted this morning, I BSOD'd while windows was trying to shut down. Lolrazer -- so that's another implication that there's a chance that this time it was the DA drivers messing with the FM. Of course, I'll post again if I experience the problem during this fresh boot, because I have no idea how this is going to go.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@wareya post xvelocity
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *baskinghobo*
> 
> Is it true this mouse has smoothing at the srom level somebody was saying here before?


It's not smoothing, it's some kind of noise filter.


----------



## wareya

New data, here:

http://i.imgur.com/rCH0XpJ.png

My mousepad is too small to get very fast above 2m/s

win 7 64-bit, no power plan, don't know about c-states

EDIT: The glitch just happened like two more times in the span of several seconds while shortly playing DM in CSGO.

EDIT: I fully removed the DA driver, rebooted, and had the glitch happen two more times while playing DM in CSGO.

EDIT: It just did it for a second and a half. RIP. I don't think I could click, either.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello Wareya,

What surface are you using? Usually loss of tracking for sporadic small amounts of time ( less than a second) are one of three things. 1. Most commonly surface incompatibility with an IR led sensor. 2. Dust on the lens or surface. 3. And very rarely broken/defective lens.

I'd also check on another system or USB bus.

Kind Regards
Jude


----------



## wareya

I had logging enabled with MouseTester while strafing in Reflex and caught a point where the sensor stopped responding: http://i.imgur.com/KFPzN2B.png

Hi Jude. Thanks for the response!

On 1, my surface is a cheap cloth mousepad with an illustration on it. My DA 3.5g, another IR mouse, tracks perfectly on it. The FM tracks on other surfaces that my DA did not, including my monitor's screen and my desk. Note, the mouse seems to take a moment to calibrate to the other surfaces after I've been using it on the mousepad, but doesn't take time to calibrate to the mousepad.

On 2, I can't see any visible dust on the lense. Any dust on the mousepad surface is one-with the fibers of the cloth pad.

I don't have an easy way of testing on another computer; but my DA (as long as its driver wasn't in the "where is the mouse?! I need to reinitialize it constantly!"-bugged-state) never had any problems like this, in the same USB port.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello ,

Thanks for that information. "my surface is a cheap cloth mousepad with an illustration on it". Is there anyway you can test to see if these stutters happen on a black surface without any illustrations ? Since I'm fairly certain this is the cause of the issues. Even if t may not happen on another mouse I always find that illustrations and changes in color on the surface can cause these stutters in tracking.

Thanks
Jude


----------



## wareya

Unfortunately, I don't have such a surface. My desk is glossy white, for example. I can try it on white paper, though, if that's good enough.

EDIT: Happened again on a perfectly flat normal stack of paper.


----------



## thatgold

I started off being quite happy with my Finalmouse Summer Edition (dislike the glossy sides, and side buttons, but everything else is very nice), I have had it for a little over a week and has been working well. Up until a few days ago..

I have noticed that my Finalmouse is occasionally moving on its own. I'll be playing a game of CS:GO and all of a sudden my character will randomly face in a direction really quickly (up, down, spin right, spin left). It's happened at least once in every game, and as far as I can tell it is happening more often.

I'm fairly certain its not CS:GO / PC causing this problem, my past g502 didn't have any issues such as this. I live in Australia so I don't think returning it is viable, getting real bummed about my purchase









Does anyone know what I should do? Anyone else had this problem and fixed it?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *baskinghobo*
> 
> Is it true this mouse has smoothing at the srom level somebody was saying here before?


SROM = sensor level

Meaning it won't be this particular mouse only.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> I have noticed that my Finalmouse is occasionally moving on its own. I'll be playing a game of CS:GO and all of a sudden my character will randomly face in a direction really quickly (up, down, spin right, spin left). It's happened at least once in every game, and as far as I can tell it is happening more often.


Maybe you have the original mouse with the design issue that caused itself to burn out.


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Maybe you have the original mouse with the design issue that caused itself to burn out.


Should have mentioned, I have the Summer Edition. Purchased it 31 May (well after the restock on Amazon, after checking with FM staff that it was indeed the summer edition despite no branding)


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> @wareya post xvelocity
> It's not smoothing, it's some kind of noise filter.


It is smoothing.

qsxcv posted the raw technical details, Final Mouse Jude even agreed, and was trying to offer 500/1000hz firmwares with the MCU smoothing on/off (which he has not yet delivered).

Quote:


> if s_i is the series of raw sensor motion data, and u_i is the series of outputted usb motion data
> u_i = 0.5 * (s_i + u_{i-1})
> 
> in english, basically every outputted value is the average of the latest raw data from the sensor and the previous output.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> I started off being quite happy with my Finalmouse Summer Edition (dislike the glossy sides, and side buttons, but everything else is very nice), I have had it for a little over a week and has been working well. Up until a few days ago..
> 
> I have noticed that my Finalmouse is occasionally moving on its own. I'll be playing a game of CS:GO and all of a sudden my character will randomly face in a direction really quickly (up, down, spin right, spin left). It's happened at least once in every game, and as far as I can tell it is happening more often.
> 
> I'm fairly certain its not CS:GO / PC causing this problem, my past g502 didn't have any issues such as this. I live in Australia so I don't think returning it is viable, getting real bummed about my purchase
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what I should do? Anyone else had this problem and fixed it?


Hello,

I have actually never run into an issue like this. Could you contact support so they can escalate the issue and do some trouble shooting? It doesn't matter where
You are from we can always offer you an RMA or warranty replacement.

Thanks ,
Jude

EDIT: I do recall the 3310 behaving this way on very few hard mousepad surfaces. So if you could tell me your surface as well that would be great.


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have actually never run into an issue like this. Could you contact support so they can escalate the issue and do some trouble shooting? It doesn't matter where
> You are from we can always offer you an RMA or warranty replacement.
> 
> Thanks ,
> Jude


I've gotten in touch with them around an hour ago, will mention you in my response and say that you wanted to do some trouble shooting.

Cheers for the help


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> I've gotten in touch with them around an hour ago, will mention you in my response and say that you wanted to do some trouble shooting.
> 
> Cheers for the help


Ok sounds good. See my edit in my previous posts regarding hard mouse pads. Since I do recall the 3310 behaving this way on a couple hard surfaces.


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Ok sounds good. See my edit in my previous posts regarding hard mouse pads. Since I do recall the 3310 behaving this way on a couple hard surfaces.


I use QCK Heavy fabric pad, pure black no images


----------



## Jonagold

@FinalmouseJude

Is there a way to get 1000hz no MCU -version of the firmware for my FinalMouse 2015 SE?

I wanna see how my hardware reacts to 1000hz, and MCU off would reduce the latency a bit more, see how it affects to the performance..


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> I use QCK Heavy fabric pad, pure black no images


Ok, that should pose zero problems. Let's see what support can trouble shoot further. In the meantime you could always try the basic: checking for any dust or hairs in the lens, trying a different computer/usb hub.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude
> 
> Is there a way to get 1000hz no MCU -version of the firmware for my FinalMouse 2015 SE?
> 
> I wanna see how my hardware reacts to 1000hz, and MCU off would reduce the latency a bit more, see how it affects to the performance..


Im hoping to get the go ahead to release that very soon, along with some early prototype images of the Ambi version all in one post!


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> It is smoothing.
> 
> qsxcv posted the raw technical details, Final Mouse Jude even agreed, and was trying to offer 500/1000hz firmwares with the MCU smoothing on/off (which he has not yet delivered).


We discussed it in another thread I guess.

Smoothing is a term that was originally being used to describe the feeling of cursor movement being smoothed out. It was some kind of inaccurate feeling, like the cursor was on ice, or imprecise. Logitech used the term to describe some kind of averaging algorithm used to cancel out jitter at high dpi settings.

It would be more accurate to call what qsxcv found filtering, so we're not using the same term for completely different things.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Im hoping to get the go ahead to release that very soon, along with some early prototype images of the Ambi version all in one post!


If you hosted the text of that, and even the previous one you did, on your website or another site, then one of us could repost it here so it wouldn't get deleted.


----------



## bank1997

Can Jude tell us the way to check that the FM that we have is SE or original because some may be purchase the used product from AMAZON so they dont know that is SE edition or not


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> We discussed it in another thread I guess.
> 
> Smoothing is a term that was originally being used to describe the feeling of cursor movement being smoothed out. It was some kind of inaccurate feeling, like the cursor was on ice, or imprecise. Logitech used the term to describe some kind of averaging algorithm used to cancel out jitter at high dpi settings.
> 
> It would be more accurate to call what qsxcv found filtering, so we're not using the same term for completely different things.
> If you hosted the text of that, and even the previous one you did, on your website or another site, then one of us could repost it here so it wouldn't get deleted.


No, qsxcv found smoothing. Take these sample raw data points:

50, 100, 50, 100, 50, 100, 50, 100

Passed from the mouse with the MCU smoothing enabled they would be:

50, 75, 63, 81, 66, 83, 67, 84

That is smoothing, that data is smoothed.

Excessive smoothing will feel inaccurate (logitech), I don't believe the smoothing in the finalmouse is excessive which is why your subjective feel of it is good (as is mine), but it is still smoothing in the MCU.


----------



## Jonagold

I suppose the delay of a release is due to a fact that 1000hz is not supported by every possible hardware configuration, causing people to have worse performing products in some cases.. Using those modified firmwares would not be recommend by the company and then releasing them would be in a conflict with their statement possibly causing some legal problems later on..


----------



## qsxcv

call it whatever you want.. the thing is that it's unnecessary for the mcu to do this sort of processing on the sensor's data

though in principle it is similar to dsp-level smoothing, i dont think it achieves the same jitter reducing properties (i.e. when drawing lines in paint)


----------



## wmoftw

Can I put WMO Hyperglides on the bottom of the FM? Those stock feet look iffy, and I saw this picture of WMO feet on a FM mouse. Are the results favorable?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> It is smoothing.
> 
> qsxcv posted the raw technical details, Final Mouse Jude even agreed, and was trying to offer 500/1000hz firmwares with the MCU smoothing on/off (which he has not yet delivered).


He's been running damage control, on top of parroting things from the company - something he always likes to complain about from other "uninformed" posters.

I wouldn't bother replying to him.


----------



## wareya

Have fun tracking moving objects accurately at high speeds with a mouse with zero noise reduction.


----------



## qsxcv

if you understand what it's doing and how much "noise" there is to begin with from the sensor's output, you wouldn't think that

there's like 500% more noise anyway as a result of csgo's unstable framerate (even if you cap at 200 or 250 there's still jitter)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Have fun tracking moving objects accurately at high speeds with a mouse with zero noise reduction.


Then use the "correct" CPI in the first place or have fun using a sensor outside its hardware specs.


----------



## wareya

Considering that the "smoothed" delta graphs coming out of mousetester look so bad, I would definitely think that. I know exactly what it's doing.

>Then use the "correct" CPI in the first place or have fun using a sensor outside it's hardware specs.

This sensor does not have a "correct" CPI.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> No, qsxcv found smoothing. Take these sample raw data points:
> 
> 50, 100, 50, 100, 50, 100, 50, 100
> 
> Passed from the mouse with the MCU smoothing enabled they would be:
> 
> 50, 75, 63, 81, 66, 83, 67, 84
> 
> That is smoothing, that data is smoothed.
> 
> Excessive smoothing will feel inaccurate (logitech), I don't believe the smoothing in the finalmouse is excessive which is why your subjective feel of it is good (as is mine), but it is still smoothing in the MCU.


It was discussed in this thread: http://www.overclock.net/t/1552218/zowie-za-11-12-13-mouse/950_50#post_24059917

Using the term "smoothing" for this is misleading, as that term is already used for something completely unrelated. Actually, it's already used for at least two other unrelated things.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> He's been running damage control, on top of parroting things from the company - something he always likes to complain about from other "uninformed" posters.
> 
> I wouldn't bother replying to him.


Please tell me what I've parroted.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Considering that the "smoothed" delta graphs coming out of mousetester look so bad,


give an example of one which looks bad?


----------



## wareya

>give an example of one which looks bad?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/lightbox/


----------



## qsxcv

xvelocity plots have more noise than xcounts due to usb polling instability. actually the polling itself is stable but the timing of when the computer is able to process the data is not
for the ones like








the mouse is having way more serious issues...
using the "noise control"/"smoothing"/"filtering" to mitigate this is like sitting on a 1inch thick piece of foam when there's an earthquake


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> This sensor does not have a "correct" CPI.


Every sensor has physical limitations. Relying on the DSP to scale the images creates more noise. Hence why "smoothing" has been implemented in most sensors. Why put yourself in such a conundrum?


----------



## wareya

Popups, tell me everything you know about the 3310. I implore you.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Popups, tell me everything you know about the 3310. I implore you.


qsxcv can do that since he has the equipment to show you.


----------



## wareya

Excellent dodge that has nothing to do with the native CPI of the sensor.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Excellent dodge that has nothing to do with the native CPI of the sensor.


----------



## wareya

Go on, tell me more. What is the optimal native CPI of the 3310?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Go on, tell me more. What is the optimal native CPI of the 3310?


That's the issue with the 3310, it's not optimal, it's not supposed to be.


----------



## wareya

Now, how is "This sensor does not have a 'correct' CPI." contradictory to that?


----------



## qsxcv

why the hell are you guys talking about cpi?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> why the hell are you guys talking about cpi?


I am talking about noise, scaling and smoothing. He wants me to state the "optimal native CPI" setting of a 3310 mouse.


----------



## wareya

He said "Then use the "correct" CPI in the first place or have fun using a sensor outside its hardware specs.".


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Have fun *tracking moving objects accurately at high speeds with a mouse with zero noise reduction.*


Why use settings (or a sensor) that introduces more noise? For faster cursor speed you either use higher noise settings or increase your sensitivity in-game. Of course 3310 mice do the convenient thing by relying on DSP smoothing and/or MCU filtering.


----------



## wareya

Muh highly specific personal interpretation


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It was discussed in this thread: http://www.overclock.net/t/1552218/zowie-za-11-12-13-mouse/950_50#post_24059917
> 
> Using the term "smoothing" for this is misleading, as that term is already used for something completely unrelated. Actually, it's already used for at least two other unrelated things.
> Please tell me what I've parroted.


No, saying this mouse does not have smoothing is misleading.

FinalMouse Jude characterizes it as MCU smoothing precisely, the raw data vs smoothed data captured by qxscv further supports it.

The MCU registers INCT0~INTC2 specifically smooth out rising/failing raw data or both.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

You don't understand. The term smoothing is already used to refer to a completely different phenomenon.


----------



## Ino.

The term smoothing was used before, in its correct use applying to what is done here.

So if anything than your definition of smoothing is off.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello,

The mcu's noise control utilizes algorithms that are mathematically referred to as either exponential, double exponential, or triple exponential smoothing algorithms. So in terms of language it's perfectly fine to use the term in this situation. However these formulas are not the process by which sensor level smoothing takes place. So there appears to be a battle of language and definitions at the moment since the term has been applied in the past to a different process (often with bad results) and can also be used for post data smoothing algorithms (which can't mathematically be used in excess or in a negative manner).

So really I would imagine that one would simply have to decide which process to define the word to.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You don't understand. The term smoothing is already used to refer to a completely different phenomenon.


It has always been used to define the coding process that "smooths" out data for less humanly perceived errors, be it on the sensor level or the MCU level. The only person that started to used it as a description for their (subjective) perception was Roach.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> The term smoothing was used before, in its correct use applying to what is done here.
> 
> So if anything than your definition of smoothing is off.


When was that? R0ach was one of the first people to use the term iirc, and he wasn't using it for this.

As is, the term is being used for two completely different things, and if you add this one it will make 3. That's very confusing and misleading.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It has always been used to describe a coding process that "smooths" out data for less preconceived errors; be it on the sensor level or the MCU level. The only person that started to used it as a description for their subjective perception was Roach.


I'm pretty sure it was being used to describe the cursor feeling for a while before Logitech used it to describe anti-high-dpi-jitter algorithms.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> When was that? R0ach was one of the first people to use the term iirc, and he wasn't using it for this.
> 
> As is, the term is being used for two completely different things, and if you add this one it will make 3. That's very confusing and misleading.
> I'm pretty sure it was being used to describe the cursor feeling for a while before Logitech used it to describe anti-high-dpi-jitter algorithms.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2/0_20

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What do you define as "smoothing"? Are we talking only about input lag? Like with the Zowie 450 CPI setting?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I would refrain from using the word "smoothing" because it is sort of misleading. You would think all optical sensors (even the MLT) have some smoothing/correction/processing to improve tracking. The word "latency" is a better description. People won't mind "smoothing", they will mind "latency". No one wants their stuff to be "laggy".
> 
> I think Logitech is the best bet at making something nice. Well, maybe not shape wise. SteelSeries are likely not the ones to do that. Razer isn't worried about that stuff. Logitech seem to have very smart people to work on stuff.
> .


By the way, it's funny to read old posts and see how things turned out years later.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> When was that? R0ach was one of the first people to use the term iirc, and he wasn't using it for this.
> 
> As is, the term is being used for two completely different things, and if you add this one it will make 3. That's very confusing and misleading.
> I'm pretty sure it was being used to describe the cursor feeling for a while before Logitech used it to describe anti-high-dpi-jitter algorithms.


Yes, the delayed cursor feeling caused by anti jitter processing... It seems like you are not connecting the cause with the effect...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...However these formulas are not the process by which sensor level smoothing takes place...


Could you explain what formulas are used at a sensor level?


----------



## qsxcv

call it whatever you like. we already know almost exactly what it does

it's not like straight up latency (e.g. vsync), but the relevant timescale for it is 2ms
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Logitech is the best bet at making something nice. Well, maybe not shape wise.
Click to expand...

it's like you predicted that they would come out with the g302/3


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2/0_20


Yeah, he's describing the feeling of the cursor movement.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Yes, the delayed cursor feeling caused by anti jitter processing... It seem like you are not connecting the cause with the effect...


I haven't seen any evidence that the anti-jitter processing is what causes the feeling of "smoothing".

In fact, if we can believe logitech, then it's definitely not the case, because they say the 3366 has no anti-jitter algorithm, but the 3366 does have the feeling of smoothing.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> In fact, if we can believe logitech, then it's definitely not the case


yes because your perceptions are absolutely correct and inerrant.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Could you explain what formulas are used at a sensor level?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> Same sensor with new settings.
> 
> CPI steps are 240-4000 in steps of 80 - so you can get native 400/800/1600/etc.
> 
> CPI range was extended, but there is still zero smoothing at 2000 CPI and below. 2080 CPI and above *implement 4 frames (<1ms) of smoothing in order to mitigate ripple.* *Sensors with smoothing levels that people find problematic are typically around 4-7ms.*


The sensor spends more time checking the frames to make sure there isn't ripple behavior being sent out to the PC. You can imagine the outcome per sensor hardware.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1251156/an-overview-of-mouse-technology/0_20

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> it's like you predicted that they would come out with the g302/3


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> When was that? R0ach was one of the first people to use the term iirc, and he wasn't using it for this.


First time i heard it was on the razerblueplrints forum, over a decade ago

im pretty sure r0ach did not coin anything except clown monkey banana whatever


----------



## Audio

[/quote]
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I was using 128 tic POV -demo, and there was a clear pattern with those bullets i missed, the mouse didn't quite proceed the quick correction movement in time and the movement continued on the head after the bullet was already left.. demo also showed crosshair being on the enemy head on the time of bullet releasing when headshot was registered in-game so it seemed to be fairly accurate..
> 
> You cant really think something that is in your muscle memory, Having thousands of hours already played on the one style I don't wanna waste it away only to adjust for another mouse with decreased performance..
> 
> Somebody should really do a test with highspeed 1000fps camera moving the mouse towards one direction then changing the direction while having camera to show both your mouse and 144hz monitor screen, then calculate how many milliseconds it took for the cursor to change its direction on screen after mouse changed it's direction in real life.. Then just do it with different mice to see how much there is difference..


I did this a few times when i first started using the FM. I came from the very hard clicks of the zowie mice, to the extremely soft responsive clicks on the FM and was just shooting before my crosshair was on the target. It seems to track fine, if not better then my zowie 3310s. I just pluged in my FM again to see if i could feel any real issues with the tracking, and i forgot how much I enjoy the tracking on this mouse, it reads so well and it's so light. I'm using my zowie EC1-A though, because the huge indent on the left side of the final mouse where your thumb goes, was causing me some sort of pain in my thumb.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Audio*
> 
> I'm using my zowie EC1-A though, because the huge indent on the left side of the final mouse where your thumb goes, was causing me some sort of pain in my thumb.


At least you didn't get hurt like I did when I used the G303. I had to stop playing for awhile.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> At least you didn't get hurt like I did when I used the G303. I had to stop playing for awhile.


So you've now got that familiar CRAW grab in which your right hand is permanently disfigured into a deformed Zombie Grip







?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yes because your perceptions are absolutely correct and inerrant.


Well I've been right on pretty much everything related to real life mouse performance...

I made a number of statements in the past which I was attacked for, and then when people tested for themselves 99% concurred with me.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> So you've now got that familiar CRAW grab in which your right hand is permanently disfigured into a deformed Zombie Grip
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


I guess it injured a nerve due to the sharp edge at the rear.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> At least you didn't get hurt like I did when I used the G303. I had to stop playing for awhile.


I tried to force myself onto the G303 because of the price cut and the sensor but my thumb was getting murdered. I couldn't bend it without it shaking and hurting at the end of one day. I haven't had that happen to me before.

This might sound like BS because I specifically questioned your injury in the other thread because it sounded ridiculous but this is the truth. I even included this detail in the return.


----------



## Khaotik55

So I have a back button issue.

Sent an e-mail to support, got a response within 5 minutes saying sending back to Amazon would be fastest route.

Replied back saying Amazon only offered refunds. It was the only mouse I have and I'd have to buy a placeholder mouse from walmart for the downtime if I sent mine back and I asked if there was any way to get one sent to me before I ship this back.

No response for 6 hours. Not sure if coincidence, lol.

Anyways here's the video. It's out of focus, my phones ringing, and my nose is whistling. Worst video ever but it gets the job done.









https://vid.me/0Zwl

Youtube wouldn't upload, stuck at 0.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The sensor spends more time checking the frames to make sure there isn't ripple behavior being sent out to the PC. You can imagine the outcome per sensor hardware.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1251156/an-overview-of-mouse-technology/0_20


I think part of the link url is missing..

So it basically just waits for a certain amount of frames to be buffered before movement data is readable?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I tried to force myself onto the G303 because of the price cut and the sensor but my thumb was getting murdered. I couldn't bend it without it shaking and hurting at the end of one day. I haven't had that happen to me before.
> 
> This might sound like BS because I specifically questioned your injury in the other thread because it sounded ridiculous but this is the truth. I even included this detail in the return.


I don't want to sound like a drama queen, but it did feel like I hurt my hand by forcing myself to use the mouse with precision. It was causing "discomfort" to my palm and fingers. I was too stubborn to tap out before I got used to the sensor. My thumb was fine after a couple of days, however, my palm felt odd/bruised (it still kind of does). It's the first time I ever experienced this with a mouse.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> I think part of the link url is missing..
> 
> So it basically just waits for a certain amount of frames to be buffered before movement data is readable?


I linked that thread because it explains a lot of details about CMOS sensors. The more you know the easier it is to figure things out.

The code makes sure which direction the mouse is actually going before it sends X and Y data to the PC. I cannot post the specific code.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> the huge indent on the left side of the final mouse where your thumb goes, was causing me some sort of pain in my thumb.


I partially filled it with a couple layers of double sided sticky-tape and a final layer of 600 grit sandpaper. Not pretty but works better than I was expecting and no slipping.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I linked that thread because it explains a lot of details about CMOS sensors. The more you know the easier it is to figure things out.
> The code makes sure which direction the mouse is actually going before it sends X and Y data to the PC. I cannot post the specific code.


Yes I've read it several times already, I though it worked in a similar way to what described in the "polling misnomer" section.
Anyway thanks, even without specific code that gives a good idea of what it's doing.


----------



## bank1997

Jude,

I have question and will be very thankful if you reply

1. How to figure out the FM that I have is SE edition or not because I am going to buy the used product from Amazon

2. I see many user of the original edition that use for 1 or 2 months and it stop working, This problem will happen to SE edition or not ? Or anyone here already find problem with SE edition please kindly post here

Thank you


----------



## marts30

Well I won't be buying from FM again. I got a response a few months ago from support saying I would be sent a replacement after my mouse died. Emailed a few times since with no reply and no replacement...


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marts30*
> 
> Well I won't be buying from FM again. I got a response a few months ago from support saying I would be sent a replacement after my mouse died. Emailed a few times since with no reply and no replacement...


Hey Marts,

Could you PM me with your email and I'll check on it personally. May be a case of emails from a certain provider not going through the system. I'll have a word with the CS guys to make sure it's figured out as well. Apologies for the delays and troubles.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Abacus1234

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yeah, he's describing the feeling of the cursor movement.
> I haven't seen any evidence that the anti-jitter processing is what causes the feeling of "smoothing".
> 
> In fact, if we can believe logitech, then it's definitely not the case, because they say the 3366 has no anti-jitter algorithm, but the 3366 does have the feeling of smoothing.


So we've already seen that the 3366 does not process cursor movement. So your "feeling of smoothing" is bias or placebo or something else, because it certainly isn't reality. You seem to have a logical disconnect between smoothing and this latency. As someone said above, you are not connecting the cause with the effect. For one of the most vocal people on this forum, it seems like you should actually bring something to the table. You don't bring science, so you could at least bring some intelligent discussion.


----------



## LegoFarmer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> So we've already seen that the 3366 does not process cursor movement. So your "feeling of smoothing" is bias or placebo or something else, because it certainly isn't reality. You seem to have a logical disconnect between smoothing and this latency. As someone said above, you are not connecting the cause with the effect. For one of the most vocal people on this forum, it seems like you should actually bring something to the table. You don't bring science, so you could at least bring some intelligent discussion.


With all do respect, the science doesn't exactly matter if the cursor doesn't have a good feeling to a lot of people. Presenting scientific evidence of sensor performance doesn't magically make a sensor feel better. I think we need to remember that sensors are used by humans and not robots in a sense. With all that being said, it is good how much information there is on the 3366 lately and other sensors too.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> So we've already seen that the 3366 does not process cursor movement. So your "feeling of smoothing" is bias or placebo or something else, because it certainly isn't reality. You seem to have a logical disconnect between smoothing and this latency. As someone said above, you are not connecting the cause with the effect. For one of the most vocal people on this forum, it seems like you should actually bring something to the table. You don't bring science, so you could at least bring some intelligent discussion.


Oh please. We've already been through this garbage a hundred times.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> So we've already seen that the 3366 does not process cursor movement.


what you mean is
the mcus in mice with the 3366 (g303 and g502) do not process the data coming from the 3366 beyond simple addition and flipping the sign


----------



## Abacus1234

Did you not see the thread about perfect mousetester plots? Pretty much proven that is a suspect (at best) testing method. What particular points of mine do I have to find evidence for? You're constantly dismissing actual testing in favor of your perceptions. We saw it proven on this forum that the FinalMouse has some minor, probably imperceptible, amount of smoothing, while the 3366 is simply adding up coordinate data. Where have I ever spoken about the theoretical superior architecture of the 3366? Never. It has been proven by someone who actually did some real testing and who also happens to show a shred of humility in his approach to contributing to this forum. Unlike you.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> With all do respect, the science doesn't exactly matter if the cursor doesn't have a good feeling to a lot of people. Presenting scientific evidence of sensor performance doesn't magically make a sensor feel better. I think we need to remember that sensors are used by humans and not robots in a sense. With all that being said, it is good how much information there is on the 3366 lately and other sensors too.


While that is definitely true, all the claims here have been about potential smoothing, so "feels" is irrelevant and highly subjective.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LegoFarmer*
> 
> With all do respect, the science doesn't exactly matter if the cursor doesn't have a good feeling to a lot of people. Presenting scientific evidence of sensor performance doesn't magically make a sensor feel better. I think we need to remember that sensors are used by humans and not robots in a sense.


science and "feels" are not mutually exclusive. what you actually mean by "science" is more like objective data

if our goal is to understand and evaluate mice/sensors, it would be foolish to just disregard objective data whenever they contradict with people's subjective descriptions.

for instance if mouse X measures as 750 dpi, and mouse Y measures as 800 dpi, but many people feel that mouse X is more sensitive than mouse Y, should we just disregard dpi as a measure of sensitivity? obviously not. when there's a contradiction like this we should look deeper and ask questions like "is dpi the only thing that affects perceived sensitivity", "how much variation is there between products", "by how much are people influenced by subjective biases", etc... and in this hypothetical scenario, eventually someone will turn the mice upside down and realize that sensor positioning affects perceived sensitivity as well (because mice are rotated somewhat when we move our hands). and then we all learn something new, i.e. both dpi and sensor positioning are important, and stop arguing about this stupid contradiction.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Abacus1234*
> 
> Did you not see the thread about perfect mousetester plots? Pretty much proven that is a suspect (at best) testing method. What particular points of mine do I have to find evidence for? You're constantly dismissing actual testing in favor of your perceptions. We saw it proven on this forum that the FinalMouse has some minor, probably imperceptible, amount of smoothing, while the 3366 is simply adding up coordinate data. Where have I ever spoken about the theoretical superior architecture of the 3366? Never. It has been proven by someone who actually did some real testing and who also happens to show a shred of humility in his approach to contributing to this forum. Unlike you.


No. You guys are taking one possibly tiny piece of the puzzle - qsxcv's findings in regards to FM noise filter - and acting like that is the #1 factor that contributes to sensor performance.

It's completely different than what people have been referring to as "smoothing" for at least a year now.

If you're talking about qsxcv in that last sentence, you've completely misunderstood his findings.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> As well as my original claim that the MLT04 was still #1, which I was attacked for, but is now almost universally accepted on here.


you're far from the first one to make this claim..


----------



## popups

It's funny thinking about how FinalmouseJude is feeling at this point. Now he might know how CPate feels. I guess we will see a FM SE with a secret message inside.


----------



## qsxcv

about what was the g303 message addressing though


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> about what was the g303 message addressing though


I assume it was done by someone that was irritated by the negative talk about the shape. You know the many pages that could hurt the sells of the G302 and G303? Ultimately, It doesn't matter.

By the way, I found it funny that I "guessed" (in like 2013) what Logitech was going to do before they did it. Same goes for Zowie.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CPate*
> 
> It is an Easter Egg intended to help you send a message to your opponents. It is not a message to our customers. That would be silly.
> 
> It is also not the first time we've done something in this vein.


or so he says


----------



## popups

Some old posts:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1402172/mouse-response/40_20#post_20249723
http://www.overclock.net/t/1402172/mouse-response/40_20#post_20281980
http://www.overclock.net/t/1402172/mouse-response/40_20#post_20283225

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> @Skylit
> 
> *Is it possible to make a 40x40 sensor and have it run at 9,000-10,000 FPS? Of course reporting at 1000Hz.
> 
> If you didn't go above 900 CPI on the 3090 would you even need a MCU for anything other than sending data to USB?* Is it as easy to go below 900 CPI as it is to go above using the sensor? In other words, can we make the pixels "bigger" with no negative effects or are we stuck with the native pixel matrix number?
> 
> If you have to rely on the MCU I rather have a 900 CPI 3090 mouse. At least for games with below 1 sensitivity values..


How can I see the future?


----------



## daav1d

Just did my first gaming test with this mouse. Sensor was good, however I couldn't feel anything special about it over Zowies or Rivals 3310. Weight was really good, felt awsome with such a light mouse. Main buttons was great as well, really light. Scroll wheel was really mushy to roll and the shape was not good at all. Will stick with Zowie for now, but if FM release a ambi with the size somewhere between Sensei and ZA11 and still keep the low weight it would be great.


----------



## nthoang1293

well, finally got my hands on the mouse after a few weeks waiting for it to ship to my country.
Initial impression is that the side buttons are still filmsy on both mouse 4 and 5, on my first unit it was just the mouse [email protected]@
The top left mouse feet is poorly placed and sticks out more than the other 3, so if I place a mouse down at a certain angle it will scrape the mouse pad







But I've tried playing some CSGO and it doesn't scrape my mouse pad so far in normal playing situation. Normally I'd ask for a replacement but the problems haven't seem to cause me troubles yet so I will keep using it anyway until bigger problems come.

Seems like Finalmouse havent got their quality control to 100% yet, hope they'll make it better for the next mouse


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> well, finally got my hands on the mouse after a few weeks waiting for it to ship to my country.
> Initial impression is that the side buttons are still filmsy on both mouse 4 and 5, on my first unit it was just the mouse [email protected]@
> The top left mouse feet is poorly placed and sticks out more than the other 3, so if I place a mouse down at a certain angle it will scrape the mouse pad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I've tried playing some CSGO and it doesn't scrape my mouse pad so far in normal playing situation. Normally I'd ask for a replacement but the problems haven't seem to cause me troubles yet so I will keep using it anyway until bigger problems come.
> 
> Seems like Finalmouse havent got their quality control to 100% yet, hope they'll make it better for the next mouse


I wonder if the top left is the same issue I have. On my mouse the actual mold of the recess for the mouse foot isn't as deep as the others under the left mouse button. This made the mouse uneven and 'wobbly'. I fixed it by adding some double sided tape below the mouse foot under the right mouse button to make it even with the other side.

The side buttons are just not that good, in their 2016 'prototype' pictures they have replaced them with better ones backed by some omron switches, so there is hope.


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I wonder if the top left is the same issue I have. On my mouse the actual mold of the recess for the mouse foot isn't as deep as the others under the left mouse button. This made the mouse uneven and 'wobbly'. I fixed it by adding some double sided tape below the mouse foot under the right mouse button to make it even with the other side.
> 
> The side buttons are just not that good, in their 2016 'prototype' pictures they have replaced them with better ones backed by some omron switches, so there is hope.


exactly, the recess for the mouse foot is shallower than the others so its sticking out more, and because the edges are pointy so it will scrape the mousepad if placed down at some angles


----------



## bank1997

Use it hard after received not so recommended bad quality shell. Sensor is standard not really good like they said. Compare to Zowie, im sure ecA better


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bank1997*
> 
> Use it hard after received not so recommended bad quality shell. Sensor is standard not really good like they said. Compare to Zowie, im sure ecA better


Sucks for you.


----------



## bank1997

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Sucks for you.


what do you feel after using it and compare to your previous mouse what do you use


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bank1997*
> 
> what do you feel after using it and compare to your previous mouse what do you use


Me personally i love it. The weight is just superb to me. I happen to like both light & heavier mice(weird i know).

Compared to my other mice in my search it's got the top spot thus far. I'm 6'6 so my hands are a pretty good size at 21 inches wrist to finger tip. I do Palm as well, Palm the ass, palm my mice. My first mouse was the G400 LOVED that mouse. Then had the 3.5G DA & stuck with that for 3 years. When i upgraded some stuff i decided to do the same to my mouse, i tried them all...

G502...cramped my pinky. It did track superb though.

SS Rival...just didn't grab me while using, though i did enjoy it.

Zowie FK1...if my scroll wheel had worked just fine? I would have kept it, mouse is amazing.

KPM...nope, too damn small for my paw.

DA2013...almost stuck with what i knew but ultimately wanted something new.

Roccat Kone XTD Optical...THIS mouse is amazing to me. Great size some mice feel good, great even. Then one exists to where it feels like you just have your hand on nothing. Exactly how it feels on the XTD OPTICAL.

FinalMouse...even though it's a bit smaller, it didn't feel Too small. Reminds me of the G400 just a bit body wise(still a clone of the imperator i know lol). The weight as i said, just great. The sensor felt on par(if not better)with the zowie, & G502 & the Kone, though i am really no expert. Feel is a big thing to me. Just like my basketball shoes are chosen with how they feel on my feet, same goes for my mouse choosing.

I was able to hit some solid shots consistently as well as make micro adjustments with my aim, plus my accuracy going up in game which are good signs.

I can be a bit indecisive but i do feel like i have made the correct choice. We'll see if the mouse stays as great as it has been.


----------



## jtl999

I have a FK1 with working scroll wheel, just came first try from Amazon US that way


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> I'm 6'6 so my hands are a pretty good size at 21 inches wrist to finger tip.


That really IS a pretty good size. xD


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude
> 
> Is there a way to get 1000hz no MCU -version of the firmware for my FinalMouse 2015 SE?
> 
> I wanna see how my hardware reacts to 1000hz, and MCU off would reduce the latency a bit more, see how it affects to the performance..


I even tested the mouse-button latency difference FM15SE against my old g100s and they were literally equally (0-1ms difference every time) fast when it comes to click latency.. That confirms the earlier observation about FinalMouse 2015 SE that it has delay in its sensor movements.

I think there should be a software -method for testing that, I can plug-in both mice and then move them together and when i change the moving direction, we should be able to see the difference when the faster mouse changes it's tracking direction before the slower mouse and that should cause the tracking to stop for some ms in the moment when the slower mouse continues its direction with the same speed and other mouse pulls to other direction at the same speed until the slower mouse also changes its tracking direction and the cursor continues its movement again..

I'd say there is 4-7ms movement delay on this FinalMouse 2015 SE, Time will tell if removing that "smoothing"/"filtering" will make a difference, I guess there is a deeper problem there and that same problem is causing them to fail 1000hz compatibility.. The difference between 500hz vs 1000hz is nothing compared to this difference between g100s @500hz vs FM15 @500hz.. 1000hz could help to reduce the effect of the main problem though..

I don't recall having this problem with the older FM though, maybe I just didn't realize the cause of the problem then..

It is also the feeling of reactiveness that I get with g100s but FM just feels like lazy to me







Try moving a window in windows and you might notice the lazy feeling as well, then compare it to some Logitech mice and they all feel like "I already know where you want me to be sir"









So there is only 2 real issues with this mouse that will cause problems in action:
1. Thumb slope
2. Lazy sensor movement

Everything else is good with this mouse and the low weight - big size combination is the heaven.. I modified the thumb slope -problem away and maybe I even get used to the movement delay but It just feels silly to get used to something that will hinder your performance..


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I even tested the mouse-button latency difference FM15SE against my old g100s and they were literally equally (0-1ms difference every time) fast when it comes to click latency.. That confirms the earlier observation about FinalMouse 2015 SE that it has delay in its sensor movements.
> 
> I think there should be a software -method for testing that, I can plug-in both mice and then move them together and when i change the moving direction, we should be able to see the difference when the faster mouse changes it's tracking direction before the slower mouse and that should cause the tracking to stop for some ms in the moment when the slower mouse continues its direction with the same speed and other mouse pulls to other direction at the same speed until the slower mouse also changes its tracking direction and the cursor continues its movement again..
> 
> I'd say there is 4-7ms movement delay on this FinalMouse 2015 SE, Time will tell if removing that "smoothing"/"filtering" will make a difference, I guess there is a deeper problem there and that same problem is causing them to fail 1000hz compatibility.. The difference between 500hz vs 1000hz is nothing compared to this difference between g100s @500hz vs FM15 @500hz.. 1000hz could help to reduce the effect of the main problem though..
> 
> I don't recall having this problem with the older FM though, maybe I just didn't realize the cause of the problem then..
> 
> It is also the feeling of reactiveness that I get with g100s but FM just feels like lazy to me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try moving a window in windows and you might notice the lazy feeling as well, then compare it to some Logitech mice and they all feel like "I already know where you want me to be sir"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So there is only 2 real issues with this mouse that will cause problems in action:
> 1. Thumb slope
> 2. Lazy sensor movement
> 
> Everything else is good with this mouse and the low weight - big size combination is the heaven.. I modified the thumb slope -problem away and maybe I even get used to the movement delay but It just feels silly to get used to something that will hinder your performance..


Sounds like you just are a fan of Logitech is all. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Sounds like you just are a fan of Logitech is all. Nothing wrong with that.


Or just have been lately using Logitech mice and they have technically worked well. I don't like Logitech mice shapes g100s is too small for my hand..


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I even tested the mouse-button latency difference FM15SE against my old g100s and they were literally equally (0-1ms difference every time) fast when it comes to click latency.. That confirms the earlier observation about FinalMouse 2015 SE that it has delay in its sensor movements.


not sure what you mean... click latency says nothing about sensor latency
Quote:


> I think there should be a software -method for testing that, I can plug-in both mice and then move them together and when i change the moving direction, we should be able to see the difference when the faster mouse changes it's tracking direction before the slower mouse and that should cause the tracking to stop for some ms in the moment when the slower mouse continues its direction with the same speed and other mouse pulls to other direction at the same speed until the slower mouse also changes its tracking direction and the cursor continues its movement again..


yes but you need to make sure that there is absolutely no rotation of the mouse. otherwise the data for two identical mice wouldn't even line up
Quote:


> I don't recall having this problem with the older FM though, maybe I just didn't realize the cause of the problem then..


do you still have the older fm?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> not sure what you mean... click latency says nothing about sensor latency
> yes but you need to make sure that there is absolutely no rotation of the mouse. otherwise the data for two identical mice wouldn't even line up
> do you still have the older fm?


- I just made sure that the click latency wasn't the case for the timing problem that I had when fast-correcting the aim..

- True..

- I have but it was a case of a faulty unit, stopped working after some weeks, first the led, then the sensor as well..


----------



## Jonagold

Could this has something to do with it?


----------



## rpalmer92

@FinalMouseJude any chance of seeing an Australian seller any time soon? Or are we forever doomed to pay $100+ to get one from Amazon?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> @FinalMouseJude any chance of seeing an Australian seller any time soon? Or are we forever doomed to pay $100+ to get one from Amazon?


EXACTLY, we are ignored by Final Mouse Corp because we don't have 300+ million of inhabitants just yet.


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> EXACTLY, we are ignored by Final Mouse Corp because we don't have 300+ million of inhabitants just yet.


What do you think of the FinalMouse Elrick? I'm assuming you've tried one...

I'm about at my wits end with trying out gaming mice. I have only ever liked the Intellimouse 1.1 or MX518/G400 shape-and-sensor-wise, but the G400 was too heavy and had smoothing and the Intellimice can't be used with ESEA at 500Hz - so the FinalMouse seems like the ultimate mouse for me considering it's basically a super light G400ish mouse with a super raw sensor.

It's either the FM or Zowie FK1 or ZA11. I do like to have the best and consider myself a man of logic though, and according to Maximilian and a few others, the FM is the only thing that comes close to the MLT04; plus it's the lightest and looks like a good shape so seems like the logical choice.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> What do you think of the FinalMouse Elrick? I'm assuming you've tried one...
> 
> I'm about at my wits end with trying out gaming mice. I have only ever liked the Intellimouse 1.1 or MX518/G400 shape-and-sensor-wise, but the G400 was too heavy and had smoothing and the Intellimice can't be used with ESEA at 500Hz - so the FinalMouse seems like the ultimate mouse for me considering it's basically a super light G400ish mouse with a super raw sensor.
> 
> It's either the FM or Zowie FK1 or ZA11. I do like to have the best and consider myself a man of logic though, and according to Maximilian and a few others, the FM is the only thing that comes close to the MLT04; plus it's the lightest and looks like a good shape so seems like the logical choice.


You could try the FK1 or FK2, the ZA series, a Kana V2 maybe? And the finalmouse too, if it works. I recently got a FK1 and FM in the mail, the FM is broken but the FK1 was decent, the stiff clicks thing is maybe a little overblown. They were stiffer than the FM, but I didn't feel like it was affecting me that much. It's so hard to find decently shaped mice with good sensors in them


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> I'm about at my wits end with trying out gaming mice. I have only ever liked the Intellimouse 1.1 or MX518/G400 shape-and-sensor-wise, but the G400 was too heavy and had smoothing and the Intellimice can't be used with ESEA at 500Hz - so the FinalMouse seems like the ultimate mouse for me considering it's basically a super light G400ish mouse with a super raw sensor.
> 
> It's either the FM or Zowie FK1 or ZA11. I do like to have the best and consider myself a man of logic though, and according to Maximilian and a few others, the FM is the only thing that comes close to the MLT04; plus it's the lightest and looks like a good shape so seems like the logical choice.


I think you are going to like the FM shape. I've also used MX518 for many years with a hybrid claw-palm grip and I'm liking the FM a lot. The thumb area is similar to the one on the MX518, the right side lip is there too but less aggressively which makes possible to rest the ring and pinky fingers easier in that area; in the other hand it's super lightweight and the sensor feels very responsive and accurate.

The only downside I find on this mouse is control quality. My scrollwheel is getting harder to scroll in some parts, also scrollwheel click is hard to press and the side buttons rattle, I mean they aren't resting secure or firm. Many complain about the side buttons being "sharp" to the touch and that they are placed too far from the thumb but it's not a big deal for me. Feet are perfect in my unit.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> What do you think of the FinalMouse Elrick? I'm assuming you've tried one....


Well I have never had the chance to even buy it just yet.

That is why I am always throwing my nappies about here in this section looking to force the manufacturer to finally send them down under.

Now someone is providing it via Ebay hence I bought one, so looking forward to finally trying out this elusive mouse here in Convict Town.


----------



## Jonagold

Where is the firmware update? 1000hz is good but you need to also remove the filtering or whatever is causing the delay.. For me the sensor accuracy is not really that important, even Logitech g100s and razer abyssus already have a good enough sensor accuracy, never trade-off the responsiveness to the accuracy, micro-corrections while aiming are necessary despite of the sensor accuracy because human muscles are making most of the errors anyway so little inaccuracy doesn't really matter, hell many pro's are using sensors that has acceleration problems..


----------



## wareya

You are not going to feel 1ms of smoothing on a consumer grade monitor.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> You are not going to feel 1ms of smoothing on a consumer grade monitor.


I am 100% sure that there is at least 4ms smoothing in this mouse, at least for my PC.. when I use my g100s and flick a distance in csgo, the bullet always land to the spot where my hand also stops, when using FM the bullet will land too early even when i has the very same timing on my movement and clicking.. Also, both mice has identical button delay (tested) And I can feel the delay when comparing to g100s... And I have 144hz monitor yes..


----------



## wareya

Might be caused by the surface, but as long as you're using something that isn't glossy or reflective it shouldn't be a problem. Based on your example, you're probably feeling the difference between their weights and between their click latencies. Wait for an *electronics level* LMB-RMB test to include the FM.

144hz is not enough to lower judder and hscan far enough to where 1ms differences in input become apparent. That's not even 1/5th of the general latency of a system (a system that's low enough that most even trained people people can't feel any latency at all), if you're running in freesync/gsync with zero-ms rendering times, which is the ideal case.

If you do somehow have like 5ms of smoothing, you have a defective mouse, and should return it.


----------



## qsxcv

fyi g100s has 4 frames, almost 1ms, of smoothing

no one really knows if or how much smoothing the 3310 has, but i doubt it's something that varies from mice to mice (i.e. one finalmouse vs another). unless the illumination on yours is particularly poor or something


----------



## baskinghobo

I was talking about whether it's true there is smoothing in the srom on 3310? Not the MCU filtering code from FinalMouse that has already been proven to add some form of delay.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *baskinghobo*
> 
> I was talking about whether it's true there is smoothing in the srom on 3310? Not the MCU filtering code from FinalMouse that has already been proven to add some form of delay.


Only pixart would know the definitive answer to that I would think.


----------



## qsxcv

well logitech/other mice companies including finalmouse probably know as well. and maybe some of us here who have significant insider knowledge (not me)









what they'd publically disclose is another matter
popups posted some relevant links a few pages back where cpate was asked whether the 3310 has smoothing, and he just said something like "can't say anything about competitor's sensors" or something

regardless i think whether a mouse has smoothing depends on which srom is used and there could be sroms with or without smoothing for the 3310. who knows.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well logitech/other mice companies including finalmouse probably know as well. and maybe some of us here who have significant insider knowledge (not me)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what they'd publically disclose is another matter


Yeah, for some reason the fact that they would provide that information to their bigger clients easily slipped my mind.


----------



## qsxcv

whatever screw 9500/9800/3988/3310 lets just wait for public 3366 and pray that it isn't nerfed


----------



## Jonagold

Hello!

I tested both my mouse Logitech g100s and FinalMouse 2015 SE with this software: http://www.draebenstedt.de/reaction/reaction.html

I kept getting consistently approximately 7 ms worse results with FinalMouse than g100s.

I tested both palm and claw -gripping both mice, claw -grip being more reactive to both..

I did total about 50 tests changing mouse after each test.. I also tested different sensitivities but when I did i changed it to both mice, I tested 400 - 800 - 1600

Results variation:

Logitech g100s: 156ms - 174ms
FinalMouse 2015 SE: 163ms - 182ms

Can you please do this test 10+ times using another mouse on comparison(preferably same size/weight and known to have no/low sensor delay) and tell results here so maybe we will get enough results to make the final conclusion?


----------



## wareya

I thought this was going somewhere, then I saw it was a human test.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I thought this was going somewhere, then I saw it was a human test.


Not having proper equipment does not leave me other ways to test it. Even with human error statics will show the difference in the long run, more tests, more reliable result..


----------



## wareya

There are other factors that affect everything, including how much you're used to a given mouse. If you use one mouse for 20 years, you're going to get better times than any similar mouse, even if the one you practiced with is slightly worse. That's even just a long example. Anything from weight to shape to button weight will affect someone's behavior in the <10ms timescale, and it's entirely different between everyone.


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> whatever screw 9500/9800/3988/3310 lets just wait for public 3366 and pray that it isn't nerfed


I should probably know this, but can I get a quick wiki on why people are so hype about the 3366? Compare/contrast with 3310 would be ideal.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> There are other factors that affect everything, including how much you're used to a given mouse. If you use one mouse for 20 years, you're going to get better times than any similar mouse, even if the one you practiced with is slightly worse. That's even just a long example. Anything from weight to shape to button weight will affect someone's behavior in the <10ms timescale, and it's entirely different between everyone.


The test basically tests how fast the information travels between your muscles and your eyes, not what your muscles do.. That's why the experience doesn't affect at all, accuracy doesn't matter.. And if enough people will do it with new mice and FinalMouse 2015 SE keeps falling behind the result is clear..


----------



## wareya

If enough people, yes. But you're not going to get enough people to make the results statistically significant. It's *MUCH* easier, and *MUCH* less BROSCIENCEific to just wait for someone to do an electronics-level test. Wire up a single switch to two mice, profit.


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> If enough people, yes. But you're not going to get enough people to make the results statistically significant. It's *MUCH* easier, and *MUCH* less BROSCIENCEific to just wait for someone to do an electronics-level test. Wire up a single switch to two mice, profit.


Then we would have literally nothing to talk about on this board 90% of the time


----------



## marts30

Got my replacement.

Good so far, but yeah that light is brighttttt!


----------



## freddycatking

Yeah, this mouse isn't perfect yet. I just got mine yesterday to replace my 5 yr old deathadder 3.5, and I ended up switching again, for now. It feels great, super light, and the buttons are awesome, but there is clearly some sort of input lag/smoothing, at least compared to the deathadder.

In the meantime, any tips? Is there better firmware possible for me? Is there an update on the way? maybe mine is flawed? I dont wan't to return it or anything just yet.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> I should probably know this, but can I get a quick wiki on why people are so hype about the 3366? Compare/contrast with 3310 would be ideal.


well for me it's because it's the newer and technically better product. i don't really care that much tbh as i'm 95% fine with the g100s/am010

and probably most people don't notice but
http://www.overclock.net/t/1494225/why-is-an-adns-9500-adns-9800-bad-and-a-pmw3310-good-they-both-have-acceleration#post_23651083


----------



## kaptchka

@freddycatking I don't know what you are feeling but the FM I have has no visible lag or smoothing. It's one of the best sensors I've used in fact. Sounds like you are experiencing some placebo. The MCU moving average Qsxcv showed would at most have an 1 ms of lag if that even, and as far as we know the 3310 has no input lag or built in smoothing.

Weird that most people have felt great responsiveness with the sensor yet jonagold and you can feel milliseconds of input lag magically. You sure you aren't jonagolds twin?


----------



## qsxcv

it's not really the same thing as lag but if i had to put a number on it i would say 2ms.

one possibility/theory is that the illumination on their finalmouses is poor, and the 3310 automatically compensates for this by increasing the smoothing amount.

i tried running my 9800 board without the laser and using external illumination from a flashlight. and it was weird to say the least. the cursor would move around kind of randomly in slowish smooth straight lines, kind of like what the cursor in lmgtfy does.


----------



## kaptchka

When I dissected my non SE finalmouse the illumination led used was the same I found in my fk1 and kpm. It's literally stock from pixart. And the illumination control with their tape for the FM technically held in more light since they covered the whole lens area where as the kpm and fk1 were exposed.

Like I said I've used both versions of the mouse I haven't had any issues with the tracking or its responsiveness. My complaints were always more QC related. Especially the side buttons.


----------



## qsxcv

the tape is black and doesn't really do much i think. maybe it's so that infrared light doesn't leak out when people take pictures of it?
regardless it's not so much about the brightness of the illumination as the uniformity. for instance if the led isn't aligned well (due to bad qc or something), the image the sensor receives could have a consistent gradient in every frame, which could cause the dsp to perform suboptimally. but idk how misaligned the led would have to be in order for this to occur


----------



## Jonagold

I tested the movement delay using Mouse Movement Recorder and this kind of setup: 
Pushing on the FinalMouse 2015 SE to make sure the they will physically move at the same time or if not, then FM earlier.. MMR still recorded moving towards left (g100s movements) earlier every time:


This test does not include human error because if it does, it could only benefit FM moving first not g100s
So the FM2015SE has movement delay over Logitech g100s that is now established, its only a question how much?
I think it comes close to 7ms taking in consideration that the report rate is very low because of the short movement..


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

I was super hype about finally giving into buying a FM, but sadly I'm currently considering returning it through Amazon because of severe discomfort issues. I had been using the monstrous Mionix Naos 7000 and could immediately tell upon unboxing the FM that it was going to be a crowded grip in comparison.

It felt alright for awhile, and I have to say I was really enjoying the speed and precision due to its super light weight and overall great input latency profile. But eventually my hand started hurting, almost cramping, on the first night. I can't immediately recall this ever happening with my Naos 7000, even after much longer gaming sessions. At least not to the point that I was entirely discouraged from playing any more like happened with my FM last night.

The problem on my end is that I have quite long and wide fingers, and the only comfortable and effective way I've been able to grip a mouse for gaming is with ring finger and pinky both gripping firmly on the side of the mouse and my palm making good contact with the butt of the mouse, but not necessarily exerting that much pressure though my palm. This allows my middle finger to freely float back and forth between the mouse wheel (which I use extremely frequently since I bind it to jump for almost every game) and RMB, and I can very comfortably and naturally lift the mouse for repositioning after long swipes mainly between my thumb and ring/pinky.

The problem on FM's end is that there's not adequate space on the right side of the mouse for my ring finger and pinky to coexist in a way that I can grip with good pressure with both ring and pinky during lifts. At first, just gripping it in the way that felt natural, I found that my ring finger kept venturing too far onto the RMB area and accidentally activating it during fast swipes, so I tried to cram it on top of my pinky essentially. This made it to where I couldn't really exert much pressure with my ring finger when I was lifting, so I had to compensate by exerting more pressure on the butt of the mouse by jamming it more into my palm. Even after I tried to allow a good amount of time to get used to the grip adjustment, it never felt good or natural and my aiming suffered. This is actually where the discomfort started because by jamming it in my palm, it basically felt like my frail, lonely pinky was bearing the full brunt of the counter-force.

My last ditch effort (other than trying radically different grips like pure fingertip, which I tried out but abandoned due to catastrophically worse aim) was to kind of contort my pinky in such a way that would make room for my ring finger under the lip of the right side, so I could grip with my familiar equal pressure thumb/ring/pinky approach. The major downside other than the obvious unnatural contortion on my pinky, was that now the RMB felt way too wide, like I was reaching across a small ocean with my middle finger any time I was using mouse wheel (basically, in having my ring finger firmly under the lip on the right hand side, I was always having to give my mouse a Vulcan salute to keep my middle finger on mouse wheel as I tend to prefer). Even though I felt like I had some crazy good aim with this grip alteration, after only a few games my hand felt about how I imagine an arthritic 80 year old's would (who also had some kind of unfortunate accident with their hand and heavy machinery when they were young).

It immediately relieved the alarming discomfort after switching back to my friendly, five-finger ergonomically gripping Naos. I really hope FM pursue an alternate shape similar to this that still maintains trying to stay super light, because that would be my perfect mouse.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the tape is black and doesn't really do much i think. maybe it's so that infrared light doesn't leak out when people take pictures of it?
> regardless it's not so much about the brightness of the illumination as the uniformity. for instance if the led isn't aligned well (due to bad qc or something), the image the sensor receives could have a consistent gradient in every frame, which could cause the dsp to perform suboptimally. but idk how misaligned the led would have to be in order for this to occur


I'm sure you've thought of this, but is there any way it could just be something that's happening with your specific FM but is not indicative of the usual behavior of FM? Like a QC control issue for instance that is causing the behavior you've noted? It may not seem likely but it's probably worth performing the experiments again with another FM just to rule that out.


----------



## kaptchka

@jonagoldThere are so many things wrong with this experiment. Firstly, the the mousemovementrecorder.exe (this is the program that comes with markcfix) The program combines the plots when 2 mice are plugged in. This is easily identifiable because you can see the HZ being combined when both mice are tracking. See below image:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







I circled the areas where this is happening. I also ran this "test" with the FM vs my 303. I have the same issue, Both mice are being reported within 3 reported rates of this program, And this is only where the refresh rate proves it, most likely the first report has plots of both mice. So when i did the same thing you did this method proves two things. Either the mice start moving at the exact same time, OR (and this is actually whats happening) the program has nowhere near the reporting rate to analyze sensor delays at this level. This is code level monitoring that you would need to do with hardware that I definitely dont have. Here is an image of when i moved the 303 and FM together:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







So i dont really understand what you are trying to show here.... I mean not to be rude, maybe im missing something with your experiment, but there are so many holes in your logic right now.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> @jonagoldThere are so many things wrong with this experiment. Firstly, the the mousemovementrecorder.exe (this is the program that comes with markcfix) The program combines the plots when 2 mice are plugged in. This is easily identifiable because you can see the HZ being combined when both mice are tracking. See below image:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I circled the areas where this is happening. I also ran this "test" with the FM vs my 303. I have the same issue, Both mice are being reported within 3 reported rates of this program, And this is only where the refresh rate proves it, most likely the first report has plots of both mice. So when i did the same thing you did this method proves two things. Either the mice start moving at the exact same time, OR (and this is actually whats happening) the program has nowhere near the reporting rate to analyze sensor delays at this level. This is code level monitoring that you would need to do with hardware that I definitely dont have. Here is an image of when i moved the 303 and FM together:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So i dont really understand what you are trying to show here.... I mean not to be rude, maybe im missing something with your experiment, but there are so many holes in your logic right now.


I am trying to show that g100s will record movements before FM15 do when triggered exactly at the same time.. Therefore FM15 having some sensor delay.. Both mice tracking at the same time is ofc completely pointless.. The point is on the fact that they are not tracking at the same time in the beginning because there is delay on FM15.. g100s is always giving the first data..


----------



## kaptchka

I understand exactly what you are trying to do... But what you have shown does not do that. The program is COMBINING data its receiving from both mice. You can see this because neither mouse has 3000 hz. Unless you have a magic g100 or FM that i dont know about. When you start moving the two at the same time this HZ overlap starts happening nearly instantaneously on the program. Which means one of two things like i said before. The reality of it is this program is in no way able to monitor what you are trying to find.


----------



## qsxcv

well if you push with your hands its not a well defined timing


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> I understand exactly what you are trying to do... But what you have shown does not do that. The program is COMBINING data its receiving from both mice. You can see this because neither mouse has 3000 hz. Unless you have a magic g100 or FM that i dont know about. When you start moving the two at the same time this HZ overlap starts happening nearly instantaneously on the program. Which means one of two things like i said before. The reality of it is this program is in no way able to monitor what you are trying to find.


When there is no movement, there is no data, its not combining anything as long as there is no data, when there is data, it is combining it only when both mice sends the first report at the same time, if not , then the first data is only from the mouse that is faster to report - that has less delay.. So we are only looking the first report after doing that push impulse to these mice that are touching each others so that the push will cause movement for both mice simultaneously.. And the push must be so short that you will see the very first report in the data sheet and you need to remember previous numbers in order to point out the first reports..


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well if you push with your hands its not a well defined timing


When those mice are touching each others the timing should be simultaneous, if there is error, it would only benefit the mouse that you will touch when pushing, not the other one..


----------



## kaptchka

Hmmm, it seems like you don't understand what I'm trying to explain to you, and show to you. I'll leave you to your experiments!


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> Hmmm, it seems like you don't understand what I'm trying to explain to you, and show to you. I'll leave you to your experiments!


For me it seems that you don't understand what I am trying to explain unless you try to explain that you are trolling, what would be completely pointless in situation where trolling really wouldn't be funny or even fun..

Try to read more carefully what I am explaining so maybe you understand.. that program is showing coordinate changes in one report and also the reporting rate in that specific moment..

first number is x -coordinate ( second y-coordinate).. negative numbers means that mouse is being moved left, positive means mouse is being moved right.. having my mouse setup as it is makes movement causing logitech g100s to report negative x -coordinates when pushing and FM15 to report positive x -coordinates when pushing as I show in the picture.. Then when I do the actual push, I will see if it is positive or negative report that shows first, it tells me which mouse reported first in the movement..

I don't know if you have dyslexia so maybe I should explain it on a video but that would in my opinion take too much effort to explain this experiment of this simplicity..


----------



## trism

I don't want to read through these flameposts so I don't know if you already mentioned this, but what happens if you switch the sides? What about if you switch the USB ports?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I don't want to read through these flameposts so I don't know if you already mentioned this, but what happens if you switch the sides? What about if you switch the USB ports?


Doesn't make a difference, its sensor delay not polling-rate -problem..


----------



## qsxcv

both g100s and fm are 500hz.

i just looked at those pictures on my pc... unless you have the finalmouse at 400dpi and g100s at 2500... there's no way there should be that large of a difference. the g100s is moving by like >5 pixels before the finalmouse responds!?!?!??!?!?!

btw you should plot it in mousetester (xcounts); it will a lot easier to visualize


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> I'm sure you've thought of this, but is there any way it could just be something that's happening with your specific FM but is not indicative of the usual behavior of FM? Like a QC control issue for instance that is causing the behavior you've noted? It may not seem likely but it's probably worth performing the experiments again with another FM just to rule that out.


the mcu processing thing?
no it's present on every fm. this is a coding/algorithm thing and not something where there is variance between devices.
you can tell from the *-_*-_*-_ or _-**_-**_-**patterns in other people's mousetester plots, and the fact that the deviations are exactly half what you'd expect from the ~6500fps pmw3310 sensor.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello Jonagold,

If you are experiencing any delay on your FM please contact our support team so we can take care of the issue for you since you shouldn't be noticing any normally.

The actual processing speeds of the FMs code are measured in microseconds and you would need to run it through a language specific performance profiler to find this. So my gut tells me that if you are clearly noticing any delay there may be a defective lens on the unit (or something similar). So feel free to contact support so we can help you.

Apologies for anyone else who had support issues, very busy lately with the new mode being finished up. Remember you can always contact [email protected] to take care of any defects or abnormalities that arise. We take our 3 year warranty very seriously.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## aleexkrysel

Any word on when/if this will be available in Europe? I'd love to give it a try but can't find it anywhere here in Germany.


----------



## Jonagold

I tried my best putting it all in this one picture to make it easier to understand..

*Shortly*: Seems like when giving a bump to move these mice simultaneously, Logitech g100s will always report first to the MouseMovementRecorder.exe
Making it easy to conclude that FinalMouse has more or less movement delay compared to g100s..

Based on my personal experience and test results the delay is around 4-7 ms. I am using the FinalMouse over g100s and getting used to the delay.. Still hoping there wouldn't be any..


----------



## qsxcv

plot with mousetester pls
it will be much easier to visualize
i'll try with my mice tomorrow


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the mcu processing thing?
> no it's present on every fm. this is a coding/algorithm thing and not something where there is variance between devices.
> you can tell from the *-_*-_*-_ or _-**_-**_-**patterns in other people's mousetester plots, and the fact that the deviations are exactly half what you'd expect from the ~6500fps pmw3310 sensor.


Well, perhaps that's a slightly unscientific way of going about it, but my MouseTester plots for my FinalMouse did indeed contain said patterns.

Do you think there's any production mouse that doesn't have at least some small implementation of 'smoothing' (either of the anti-jitter variety or the frame-induced delay variety since the term seems to have evolved to take on plural meanings)? Even though it seems counter-intuitive to us mouse turbo-nerdlingers, I would think that it would be commercially advantageous for companies to provide mice that convey a feeling of "consistency" in mouse movement instead of out-and-out "rawness", because the far greater majority would (mistakenly, I suppose) interpret an overtly raw feeling as a lack of consistency or precision in mouse performance.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> Well, perhaps that's a slightly unscientific way of going about it, but my MouseTester plots for my FinalMouse did indeed contain said patterns.


it's about as "unscientific" as using the bump test for button latency.
i can tell you that in science, a lot of stuff is searching in the dark and in order to efficiently, you have to rely on small clues from your intuition instead of trying to ensure everything is done rigorously
Quote:


> Do you think there's any production mouse that doesn't have at least some small implementation of 'smoothing' (either of the anti-jitter variety or the frame-induced delay variety since the term seems to have evolved to take on plural meanings)?


well then it depends on how you define it. for sure mice from the past (mlt04) didn't have the same smoothing algorithms used in certain 9800 revisions and its relatives. and i don't think logitech is lying when it claims g3/402 has no smoothing <= 2000dpi, and 3366 has no smoothing.

but
===speculation===
this is a quite general statement, but all modern sensors probably use data from previous frames to aid in its decision-making for the current frame. this would explain why, for the am010 (and i think other recent sensors), once it malfunctions, the sensor spits out garbage until the mouse almost completely comes to a rest. consider what happens when you swipe a mouse fast enough that it malfunctions. initially the range of directions the sensor searches for correlations is centered at (0,0), no motion. as the speed increases, eventually the shift between each frame is large enough to be outside the range of directions, and then the sensor malfunctions. then as you slow down in the swipe, the shifts between frames is smaller than that range, and the sensor recovers. at least that's how i think the mlt04 (and maybe some other old sensors) works, since you can see in mousetester that the malfunction speed is exactly the same as the "recovery speed". but for the am010 and 3090 (and maybe 9800,3988,3310,3366... i havent seen any malfunction plots of those), the sensor malfunctions at a high speed but then only recovers when motion almost stops i.e. the recovery speed is much lower. i think what's going on is that the range of directions the sensor searches is determined by the shift from the previous frame. if the sensor realizes that the last frame was shifted by (5,3), it's not going to waste it's limited computing power to calculated correlations near (0,0), because unless you're slamming the mouse against a wall, there's no way the mouse decelerates that quickly. so it searches around (5,3) instead e.g. calculated correlations for shifts of (5,2);(5,3);(5,4);(4,2);(4,3);(4;4);etc... however eventually you go outside the range the sensor is programmed to search for, and then it malfunctions, once it malfunctions, it doesn't have the same information as before about what direction the mouse is moving, and has to go back to square one, searching around (0,0). and i think that's why the recovery speed is so low compared to the malfunction speed.
======

it's clear that something like this doesn't cause input lag, because the calculations from the current frame are what's being outputted, without any mixing/averaging with previous frames, but it could cause perceptual differences, especially when the image captured by the sensor isn't good quality. on my 3366 board, if i don't use it with a mouse shell and just put the sensor on the mousepad so that the captured image is out of focus, there isn't input lag, but the tracking does feel different/inprecise.
Quote:


> Even though it seems counter-intuitive to us mouse turbo-nerdlingers, I would think that it would be commercially advantageous for companies to provide mice that convey a feeling of "consistency" in mouse movement instead of out-and-out "rawness", because the far greater majority would (mistakenly, I suppose) interpret an overtly raw feeling as a lack of consistency or precision in mouse performance.


well 12000dpi marketing would backfire if you put your mouse on the pad and it started spazzing randomly








idk what logitech does in am010 and 3366 but i think that they realized that the smoothing algorithms in previous sensors should be avoided. maybe they did something similar to what i wrote above to make the sensor usable at 12000dpi. but just look at how much ripple there is for the 3366 in mspaint lines at >3000dpi and i think it's pretty obvious that there isn't too much processing, if any, that reduces ripple.

also inb4 maxkohler misinterprets and uses this as "supporting evidence" for what he thinks of 3366


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

I agree with every thing you said in that post, and your speculation makes perfect rational sense and I can't easily fathom another reasonable explanation for the discrepancy in recovery speed that you describe.

It got me thinking about something interesting. I mean, rationally speaking, it's impossible to have any sensor data with 'smoothing' in the broadest sense of the term. What I mean by this, the definition of what a sensor does is measure the change in relative position over a period of time, so the minimum number of distinct points in time that must be compared is 2. But I think in the more colloquial use of the label 'smoothing', the data collection->report algorithm takes into account > 2 data measurements and therefore > 2 distinct points in time.

So to continue with your line of speculation, I would postulate that the shift in treatment of sensor malfunction->recovery was due to the consequences of your generalization,
Quote:


> modern sensors probably use data from previous frames to aid in its decision-making for the current frame


In my mind, once a sensor malfunctions because it is moving faster than the sensor can physically or algorithmically determine with accuracy, you wouldn't see a return to fully accurate correlation until the sensor returns back to or near the only true reference point it can have: (0, 0). All other frames are relative reference points to (0, 0) if I am comprehending this correctly. So as a sensor that has recovery speed roughly equal to malfunction speed has passed the malfunction speed and is slowing back down to recovery speed, it can do nothing else but make 'best guess' correlations as to the current frame, but because these correlations are based on the faulty post-malfunction frames, it is highly unlikely that the best guess correlation is properly measuring the actual relative position change once the sensor has passed back under the recovery speed.

Continuing this line of logic, I'm deducing that none of the sensor data will be back to normal accuracy until the sensor returns back to the true (0, 0) reference, or close enough that the correlations are asymptotically approaching it. Then the frame correlations are basically able to restart with accuracy. So perhaps the reasoning and strategy for decoupling the malfunction and recovery speed was so that the user wouldn't be misled by the inaccurate mouse movement after going under the high recovery speed threshold, which wouldn't regain accuracy until it had reached a speed slow enough for the correlations to asymptotically approach (0, 0). In this way, the user is clearly signaled once a malfunction occurs and will learn to recover by bringing the mouse back to a halt.

Again this is all speculation and quite likely complete tripe, but I just found it to be interesting--trying to rationalize and gain insight into not only how but why sensors function the way they do.


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

To quickly revisit my earlier post, has no one else had a problem attaining a comfortable and effective grip with the Finalmouse? Maybe I just have freakishly sized/shaped hands and/or freakish gripping technique D:


----------



## qsxcv

not sure if we're understanding each other correctly, but for the wmo/mlt04, the tracking, once it recovers, is completely normal. i think this is also true of the logitech g3. and this is why the mlt04, despite its tremendously low malfunction speed, is usable/possible to get used to for fps games

what i have in mind is that the sensor does something like
calculate correlation between current frame and (previous frame shifted by (0,0))
calculate correlation between current frame and (previous frame shifted by (0,1))
calculate correlation between current frame and (previous frame shifted by (0,-1))
calculate correlation between current frame and (previous frame shifted by (1,0))
etc...
then selects the one which gives the highest correlation to give the actual count.

for sure it's more complicated than this but it probably does something similar to that


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> not sure if we're understanding each other correctly, but for the wmo/mlt04, the tracking, once it recovers, is completely normal. i think this is also true of the logitech g3. and this is why the mlt04, despite its tremendously low malfunction speed, is usable/possible to get used to for fps games
> 
> what i have in mind is that the sensor does something like
> calculate correlation between current frame and (previous frame shifted by (0,0))
> calculate correlation between current frame and (previous frame shifted by (0,1))
> calculate correlation between current frame and (previous frame shifted by (0,-1))
> calculate correlation between current frame and (previous frame shifted by (1,0))
> etc...
> then selects the one which gives the highest correlation to give the actual count.
> 
> for sure it's more complicated than this but it probably does something similar to that


I think I'm understanding you correctly, but I probably took too many liberties in my imagination of correlation process I described above, and I probably also wasn't using the term "correlation" correctly every time, sometimes I think I instead should have said "count" and other times "frame shift". Regardless, the point I was trying to make is that, for instance, the first count after passing under the mlt04's recovery speed is based on a previous frame, which was during sensor malfunction. The the next count is based on the previous count, which was based on the frame occurring during sensor malfunction.... so on and so on. So basically the counts won't return to pre-malfunction accuracy until they are being correlated with the absolute reference point of a (0, 0) shift.

Again, my logic may not be valid, or my understanding of the sensor data acquisition and processing may be incorrect or incomplete.


----------



## freddycatking

This is getting interesting, especially because 4-7ms of delay between the FM and other gaming mice is quite a lot and describes the slight lag that I was feeling.

If someone has a scientific way to test for real delay between the FM's sensor and other mice, and the guys working over at FM have a way to fix it, that would be awesome. Otherwise I am kind of considering returning the mouse, even though everything ELSE about it is just awesome to me.


----------



## qsxcv

4-7ms of straight up input lag isn't a lot. though some people have been able to just barely pass a blind test for 4/5ms (my input lag ab test at blurbusters)
4-7ms of smoothing or certain types of processing... that could be much more noticeable


----------



## freddycatking

Well I'm just quoting 4-7ms from the previous people, that's why I'm asking for a scientific test.


----------



## kaptchka

qsxcv when you mentioned trying the experiment on mousetester that actually peaked my interest since with raw plotting data it could actually give us some concrete evidence to perhaps give a ballpark estimate and possibly use this to compared other mice's sensor delays in the future. So I decided to try comparing the FM to the g303 (this is the only logitech mouse i have) Below you will find my prep / method / and results:

Setup:

First I tried the method shown before of aligning both mice in opposite directions to have the FM give me the positive plots and the 303 the negative plots. Proof of concept worked fine in regards to how mousetester visually was showing me the data. I had the FM plots going up and at the same time the 303 plots going down. There was an issue though, without even looking at the results I could tell there was going to be way too much human error with the way these mice had to be moved (and the data was showing this as well showing the first mouse having sometimes 10 ms faster results). I could tell the first mouse being touched could potentially record data first simply due to how the structure of the shell had to touch the other shell.

Simple fix. I took a bunch of tape and applied it double sided to various areas of the side of both shells until both structures effectively became one. I was pretty liberal with my application of electrical tape and lastly I used 3 final single strands of tape attaching the structures from the top as well.

To initiate mousetester collect at this point i simply had to click the left click on one mouse and move the structure as one.

Remarkably I actually got some interesting data off the bat. Here is a picture of the first plot I did, followed by a zoomed in picture of the same plot:



The positive plots are the FM, and the negative plots are the 303. As you can see they are very close visually, but the 303 is faster by .4 MS

I ran the test multiple times to get a wider range of data. Below are the tests that I ran and ultimately the results:

ALL OF THESE ARE ON 400 DPI on both mice, on black qck heavy:

1st run with FM as positive lead mouse: 303 faster by ~ .4 ms
2nd run with FM as positive lead mouse: 303 faster by ~ .65 ms
3rd run with FM as positive lead mouse: FM faster by ~.25 ms
4th run with FM as positive lead mouse: 303 faster by ~.6 ms

5th run with 303 as positive lead mouse and USB ports swapped: FM faster by ~.2ms
6th run with 303 as positive lead mouse and USB ports swapped: 303 faster by ~.6 ms
7th run with 303 as positive lead mouse and USB ports swapped: 303 faster by ~.6ms
8th run with 303 as positive lead mouse and USB ports swapped: 303 faster by ~.8ms

From these results you can definitively see that the 303 is faster by an average of roughly half of an MS nearing towards .6

From this I would have to conclude that the 3310 sensor also does not have any internal smoothing, and that the FM is conclusively a fraction of a hair slower than the 303. But with the numbers we are talking about (less than 1 ms) the margin of error is very high. So in terms of sensor delay I would have to say the mice are fairly identical for all PRACTICAL purposes.

This being said I do believe this roughly .6 ms may be caused by code calculating the moving average filter that is on the FM mcu.


----------



## qsxcv

those time deltas don't really count since usb polling is 1000hz.
and fm is 500hz report rate so you kinda expect it to be ~1ms slower on average

so your test shows that your fm is fine/reasonable.

actually i don't think the mcu filter affects this test at all. well depends on how exactly the error propagation works.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TsYZNvS9fZqOg6Y6_BQPqyYiA4ZB0qN_yeqEDv-PcEM/edit#gid=1035487214
compare column H (what the usb data would look like without filtering) and column L (actual data)
this was also starting from rest, though it was for 3200 or 1600dpi

in jonagold's picture, the g100s was moving by several pixels before the finalmosue responded......


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> qsxcv when you mentioned trying the experiment on mousetester that actually peaked my interest since with raw plotting data it could actually give us some concrete evidence to perhaps give a ballpark estimate and possibly use this to compared other mice's sensor delays in the future. So I decided to try comparing the FM to the g303 (this is the only logitech mouse i have) Below you will find my prep / method / and results:
> 
> Setup:
> 
> First I tried the method shown before of aligning both mice in opposite directions to have the FM give me the positive plots and the 303 the negative plots. Proof of concept worked fine in regards to how mousetester visually was showing me the data. I had the FM plots going up and at the same time the 303 plots going down. There was an issue though, without even looking at the results I could tell there was going to be way too much human error with the way these mice had to be moved (and the data was showing this as well showing the first mouse having sometimes 10 ms faster results). I could tell the first mouse being touched could potentially record data first simply due to how the structure of the shell had to touch the other shell.
> 
> Simple fix. I took a bunch of tape and applied it double sided to various areas of the side of both shells until both structures effectively became one. I was pretty liberal with my application of electrical tape and lastly I used 3 final single strands of tape attaching the structures from the top as well.
> 
> To initiate mousetester collect at this point i simply had to click the left click on one mouse and move the structure as one.
> 
> Remarkably I actually got some interesting data off the bat. Here is a picture of the first plot I did, followed by a zoomed in picture of the same plot:
> 
> 
> 
> The positive plots are the FM, and the negative plots are the 303. As you can see they are very close visually, but the 303 is faster by .4 MS
> 
> I ran the test multiple times to get a wider range of data. Below are the tests that I ran and ultimately the results:
> 
> ALL OF THESE ARE ON 400 DPI on both mice, on black qck heavy:
> 
> 1st run with FM as positive lead mouse: 303 faster by ~ .4 ms
> 2nd run with FM as positive lead mouse: 303 faster by ~ .65 ms
> 3rd run with FM as positive lead mouse: FM faster by ~.25 ms
> 4th run with FM as positive lead mouse: 303 faster by ~.6 ms
> 
> 5th run with 303 as positive lead mouse and USB ports swapped: FM faster by ~.2ms
> 6th run with 303 as positive lead mouse and USB ports swapped: 303 faster by ~.6 ms
> 7th run with 303 as positive lead mouse and USB ports swapped: 303 faster by ~.6ms
> 8th run with 303 as positive lead mouse and USB ports swapped: 303 faster by ~.8ms
> 
> From these results you can definitively see that the 303 is faster by an average of roughly half of an MS nearing towards .6
> 
> From this I would have to conclude that the 3310 sensor also does not have any internal smoothing, and that the FM is conclusively a fraction of a hair slower than the 303. But with the numbers we are talking about (less than 1 ms) the margin of error is very high. So in terms of sensor delay I would have to say the mice are fairly identical for all PRACTICAL purposes.
> 
> This being said I do believe this roughly .6 ms may be caused by code calculating the moving average filter that is on the FM mcu.


Very interesting.. I am beginning to wonder if my FinalMouse is just a faulty unit again, is your version the normal FinalMouse or the Summer Edition -version? Can you perform similar tests using MouseMovementRecorder to see if the difference comes from a testing method rather than unit difference?


----------



## Jonagold

I made same tests with MouseTester, my FM2015SE vs g100s..
g100s is causing negative x -coordinates, FM2015SE still being several ms slower..


----------



## freddycatking

Thank you guys for figuring out this test by the way; I gave it a try as well VS my deathadder and the FM seems to move slower by 2-8 ms every time. Is it possible we all have faulty devices?


----------



## Jonagold

It is possible they didn't notice the delay in their own testing or the delay is a result of some kind of quick-fix that hey had to apply for their recent batch..

Anyway, I like the FinalMouse as a company. Trying to make professional products and having caring customer support and warranty. I would like to work for them as product tester/developer. I wonder what kind of a degree you need for that job?


----------



## qsxcv

can someone compare against another 3310 mouse?
i'm not gonna be back until sunday so i cant compare anything ;p


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I would like to work for them as product tester/developer. I wonder what kind of a degree you need for that job?


probably gotta be a computer or electrical engineer


----------



## qsxcv

doubt it


----------



## banjogood

what else then? cs?


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> can someone compare against another 3310 mouse?
> i'm not gonna be back until sunday so i cant compare anything ;p


I tested it on a couple plots with my FK1 and KPM. FK1 was the same deal. They're both too close to really give off any distinctive edge. Out of four plots each mouse had an advantage twice. But the KPM was actually slower by a consistant 2-2.5 MS. I also compared KPM to the FK1 directly, and it was also slower by the 2-3 MS... every time.


----------



## wareya

Have you tried switching USB ports? Have you tried a different computer? Are the KPM and FK1 using up-to-date firmware?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> doubt it


Product tester: I agree, lots of people could do that.

Product developer: electrical engineer makes sense there, doesn't it? I mean, if you have an education in physics you can probably do it too, but there are few engineering fields where that doesn't apply.


----------



## baskinghobo

Whatever happened to the supposed raw input bug they found in csgo?


----------



## qsxcv

he retracted it and said something about some motherboard something


----------



## freddycatking

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *baskinghobo*
> 
> Whatever happened to the supposed raw input bug they found in csgo?


There may or may not have ever been a bug. Basically raw input in csgo uses sort of an incorrect polling from the mouse and can make it slightly more sluggish. In theory it should be snappier and more accurate than raw input off and other games without raw input, but for some people turning it off feels better. You can be good with it off or on, up to you. also try "m_mousespeed 0" in console. It doesn't "fix" the raw input like some people say, but there is a big difference from off vs on with raw input off. If raw input is on, technically it shouldn't make a difference, but you should set it 0 anyway. Some people feel the difference plus who doesn't want more placebo?

I also ended up returning my finalmouse. Good idea, but I don't want to be part of the train of sending it back and forth as new updates and fixes come out because it's a new mouse. I think I'll stick with whats tried and true to me, no offense to the guys working at FM


----------



## qsxcv

just tried jonagold's test with wmo and [email protected] wmo's first response was always faster by ~1ms or so. though i used 1000hz on wmo...

actually what we should be comparing is more like: how many pixels did either mouse move during the first 10ms after the first report

i think the most interesting sensor test i've seen so far...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *freddycatking*
> 
> Basically raw input in csgo uses sort of an incorrect polling from the mouse


i'd appreciate it if people could stop throwing around vague statements like this without providing concrete evidence


----------



## Jonagold

I did same tests but with Razer abussys @1000hz, even greater delay difference..

Then Razer Abyssus @125hz


----------



## qsxcv

you should make sure dpi is the same... otherwise it's not quite fair

positive is wmo, negative is finalmouse

first pixel isn't that different, but count the dots
by the time wmo moves 10 pixels finalmouse has only moved 3 pixels!!!!!!!

more data:
torq x5 @ 400dpi vs wmo: wmo moves 10 pixels before torqx5 moves 4-5pixels or so
torq x5 @ 400dpi vs g502 @ 400dpi: g502 moves 10pixels before torqx5 moves ~7 pixels
wmo vs [email protected]: almost identical
g502 @1000dpi vs g100s @ 1000dpi: almost identical

ill post some more controlled data tomorrow.

also it's very interesting to watch how the cursor jitters when you move the two mice around (since ideally the sensors would cancel each other out and the cursor wouldn't move).


----------



## lansnygg

After using the FM 2015 SE for about two weeks, this is my review:

--- Cons

The mouse could not track properly on my QPAD CT (http://qpad.com/products/mousepads/CT-BLACK/). My intellimouse 3.0 had no issues what so ever tracking on this pad. Had to buy the steelseries qck.

Switched to steelseries Qck and most of the tracking issues went away. However, sometimes when lifting / putting down the mouse from the pad it loses track and flicks randomly. (No this is not because of dirty lens/mousepad, I have checked that). This happens at least once or twice per cs:go game.

There was a crack in the mousewheel when it arrived. Still working, but slightly annoying.

After 1 week the mousewheel starts to wobble sideways in its position. When swiping the mouse you can hear it shaking.

The mousewheel is bad for bunnyjumping in cs:go. I consider this important.

Glossy parts on the sides summons dirt faster than sauroman summons Uruk-hai. The glossy sides are not a huge problem for my grip though. However, the grip would benefit from the same material as the top of the mouse.

Mouse4 and mouse5 buttons are not the best, but they are not as bad as people have been saying in this thread. They are acceptable, but not more.

The lights of the mouse are really strong. I recommend turning on power saving for S4 and S5 states (in BIOS) so that the mouse does not shine when computer turned off.

--- Pros

This is the first mouse, in my knowledge, that has *0* de-acceleration. Other mice (like the zowie ez1) seem to suffer from significant de-acceleration even at 1000hz. It does not matter how fast I swipe the mouse, it still moves the same distance as if I would swipe it really slow. This is the most amazing thing with the mouse in my opinion and the reason to why I really like it.

I do enjoy the shape of the mouse.

The weight of the mouse is great.

The first and second mouse buttons are great.

--- Discussion

There are many minor cons with the mouse. However, I do feel that the precision of the sensor makes up for most of them. Still, since I live in europe I payed over 90 dollars including the delivery, and this is a great amount of money for a mouse with a considerable amount of flaws.

In recent posts people have been discussing a delay in the sensor. As I do play the AWP alot in cs:go I have been experiencing some "delay" as well, hear me out. When I flick-shot (I rely 100% on muscle memory and flick crazy fast with the awp) I feel that the mouse1 button registers mid-flick. This did not happen with my intellimouse 3.0. This might be due to the fact that the mouse buttons are more responsive on the FM and that I have not getting used to that yet (I might actually press mouse1 too early). However, it could also be this delay that people are talking about. Time will tell I guess.

I would also like to know if anyone else have experienced the troubles with the sensor that I described. Maybe I have a bad copy?


----------



## Jonagold

I am also relaying on my musclememory especially when fast-flicking awp in csgo. Having considerable amount of delay in sensor surely puts one's muscle memory in the trash when it comes to fast flicking..

I used previously g100s that had exactly the same button delay as FM15. Both button delay and sensor delay will affect to the timing when flicking, if even one of them is off, you need to re-build your whole muscle memory to match the new setup..

You propably have both decreased button delay combined with increased sensor delay, causing double the trouble..


----------



## p0ps

Can someone test zowie vs Logitech please, thanks


----------



## cookieboyeli

I haven't been following this thread. Can anyone give me the lowdown as to what's going on?
I really want to know:

Have they given it 1000Hz yet? (How can they seriously call it final mouse without 1000Hz???)

What other issues does it have?

And I see you guys are measuring response times and cool stuff like that, where is this mouse on the charts?

I want to get rid of my stupid Deathadder 2013. The damn malware it has literally loads up before windows is done installing offline!!!!








I'd prefer a solid upgrade rather than a sidegrade. I have large hands, my fingertips go completely past the end of the DA 2013 if I do palm grip. My tendons in my fingertips are "loose" so I can only do a low claw grip or else the last segment in my fingers bends backwards








I am considering a Zowie EC1-A if I can change the switches to omron.


----------



## wareya

>(How can they seriously call it final mouse without 1000Hz???)

I sure do love insisting on 0.5ms of latency when there are so many other factors to latency at play!


----------



## qsxcv

500 vs 1000 isn't about latency... it's about the small difference in the smoothness of motion.


----------



## pinobot

That's only on the desktop.
But if you set your monitor to 125 Hz then even 125 hz on the mouse is smooth.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pinobot*
> 
> That's only on the desktop.
> But if you set your monitor to 125 Hz then even 125 hz on the mouse is smooth.


Not really, refresh-rate and mouse report rate are not in sync, to ensure smoothness you need at least 2 times the screen refresh rate..
500hz is enough, the difference to 1000hz is minimal.. FM15 sensor delay problems are not because of the report rate..


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> refresh-rate and mouse report rate are not in sync,


i think you can get it really really close. well i know i can since i have a crt


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cookieboyeli*
> 
> I haven't been following this thread. Can anyone give me the lowdown as to what's going on?
> I really want to know:
> 
> Have they given it 1000Hz yet? (How can they seriously call it final mouse without 1000Hz???)
> 
> What other issues does it have?
> 
> And I see you guys are measuring response times and cool stuff like that, where is this mouse on the charts?
> 
> I want to get rid of my stupid Deathadder 2013. The damn malware it has literally loads up before windows is done installing offline!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd prefer a solid upgrade rather than a sidegrade. I have large hands, my fingertips go completely past the end of the DA 2013 if I do palm grip. My tendons in my fingertips are "loose" so I can only do a low claw grip or else the last segment in my fingers bends backwards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am considering a Zowie EC1-A if I can change the switches to omron.


In addition to my FK2, and FinalMouse I just picked up a Naos 7000 (for about half the cost of the previous two). It might be worth giving a look before trying to retrofit a Zowie mouse with omrons, which I have also considered myself.


----------



## cookieboyeli

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >(How can they seriously call it final mouse without 1000Hz???)
> 
> I sure do love insisting on 0.5ms of latency when there are so many other factors to latency at play!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 500 vs 1000 isn't about latency... it's about the small difference in the smoothness of motion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4
Watch it. Learn it.

There are two different kinds of latency we talk about here on OCN. This one is always forgotten and confused with the OTHER type of latency, like the difference between 144fps and 143fps. That is not directly noticeable. Even 60 to 59fps is imperceptible aside from sync issues. If it was G-SYNC it would be truly impossible to tell, or if someone could, that would be very rare.


----------



## wareya

"tl;dr" version of the 500hz "problem":

500hz: Response window -- 2ms. Average response -- 1ms.
1000hz: Response window -- 1ms. Average respons -- 0.5ms.
Difference between average responses: 0.5ms.
WOW SO NOTICABLE, ESPECIALLY ON A 120HZ G/FREESYNC MONITOR RUNNING A GAME THAT SAMPLES INPUTS 120 TIMES PER SECOND RESULTING IN AN 8.3 MS AVERAGE RESPONSE *FLOOR*. (If you're not running g/freesync add another 4ms and subtract the difference between 8ms and half of your typical frame time. In all situations add the game logic and rendering times verbatim for a realistic estimate. add 1 frame if running buggy DX drivers. The number keeps increasing in real world setups.)


----------



## cookieboyeli

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> "tl;dr" version of the 500hz "problem":
> 
> 500hz: Response window -- 2ms. Average response -- 1ms.
> 1000hz: Response window -- 1ms. Average respons -- 0.5ms.
> Difference between average responses: 0.5ms.
> WOW SO NOTICABLE, ESPECIALLY ON A 120HZ G/FREESYNC MONITOR RUNNING A GAME THAT SAMPLES INPUTS 120 TIMES PER SECOND RESULTING IN AN 8.3 MS AVERAGE RESPONSE *FLOOR*. (If you're not running g/freesync add another 4ms and subtract the difference between 8ms and half of your typical frame time. In all situations add the game logic and rendering times verbatim for a realistic estimate. add 1 frame if running buggy DX drivers.)


Look I know there's tons of latency in the chain.

So maybe we should just give up huh? Oh who cares about 1ms no biggie right? Well who cares about another 4ms, it's not like that will make a difference either. Lets just ignore all these optimizations because MEH! It'll never be enough to notice anyway! /s

Why don't you use some LOGIC and understand that the more latency we can shave off, the better. I don't care if it's 100µs!! Every little bit counts. It's just one step closer to reality.
*If finalmouse makers can't understand that, they're stupid.* I'll get a Zowie EC1-A and put some omrons in it.

Arizonian, please.


----------



## wareya

If you optimize for psychotic levels of latency in one link of the chain, that link of the chain starts acquiring serious technical debt and incompatibilities with the other links in the chain. It's ALWAYS better to equalize an unbalanced chain than push one part to its limits, except for specific exceptions where a link is part of multiple chains (e.g. OS thread scheduler, to bring up a separate context). Optimizing system compatibility and dramatically increasing latency consistency are more than worth sacrificing 0.5ms of latency for, especially when someone struggling to get that back can change monitors, CPUs, GPUs, game settings, OS settings to achieve dramatically higher latency reductions.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> "tl;dr" version of the 500hz "problem":
> 
> 500hz: Response window -- 2ms. Average response -- 1ms.
> 1000hz: Response window -- 1ms. Average respons -- 0.5ms.
> Difference between average responses: 0.5ms.
> WOW SO NOTICABLE, ESPECIALLY ON A 120HZ G/FREESYNC MONITOR RUNNING A GAME THAT SAMPLES INPUTS 120 TIMES PER SECOND RESULTING IN AN 8.3 MS AVERAGE RESPONSE *FLOOR*. (If you're not running g/freesync add another 4ms and subtract the difference between 8ms and half of your typical frame time. In all situations add the game logic and rendering times verbatim for a realistic estimate. add 1 frame if running buggy DX drivers. The number keeps increasing in real world setups.)


Isn't in-game motion smoother when running a mouse at a higher polling rate?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 500 vs 1000 isn't about latency... it's about the small difference in the smoothness of motion.


I was using an Intellimouse at 125Hz. It was awful.


----------



## wareya

No, because the game is never in sync with the mouse under any circumstances anyway.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cookieboyeli*
> 
> I don't care if it's 100µs!! Every little bit counts. It's just one step closer to reality.
> *If finalmouse makers can't understand that, they're stupid.*


they have their excuses.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cookieboyeli*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4
> Watch it. Learn it.


no u http://www.blurbusters.com/mouse-125hz-vs-500hz-vs-1000hz/


----------



## espgodson

just got my replacement today build quality and everything is fine and a nice improvement.

however i just played a scrim in cs:go and my mouse malfunctioned 3 times? i never had this issue with my first fm :/


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> just got my replacement today build quality and everything is fine and a nice improvement.
> 
> however i just played a scrim in cs:go and my mouse malfunctioned 3 times? i never had this issue with my first fm :/


Hey Espgodson,

Glad you got your replacement. I've sent you a pm regarding your sensor malfunctions. Ill make sure we get to the bottom of it.

Also on a side note, If anyone with a z77 asus mobo (that wants to help do some testing) could send me a PM, that would be great, and could help out many people in the future









Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## bond10

Was there any update on the whole m_rawinput 1 issue? I read that finalmouse devs told us to turn it off but then suggested it's related to certain motherboards?


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Was there any update on the whole m_rawinput 1 issue? I read that finalmouse devs told us to turn it off but then suggested it's related to certain motherboards?


I believe the post above yours is exactly about that..


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cookieboyeli*
> 
> Have they given it 1000Hz yet? (How can they seriously call it final mouse without 1000Hz???)


Here's what was said: I think there are much bigger fish to fry. Still waiting for that "smoothing" update!








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We have found 500hz is more stable not only with a variety of bus's and systems but the actual sensor algorithms and machine code we utilize in the srom still perform better and more consistently at 500hz.
> 
> These stability issues you will never be able to find at home. We use a Cartesian style 2 axis robot to do circle tests that we gauge a lot of our performance metrics on.
> 
> On top of this 8/10 cs go pros we worked with preferred the feeling of 500hz over 1k in a blind test. This is because at higher hz and framerates 1k hz can feel more slippery.
> 
> These are the main reasons. Obviously it's not hard to simply change the firmware register fields and make the mouse 1000hz but our entire brand philosophy revolves around making sure the mouse comes preequipped exactly how we believe it should be configured for esports/fps use.
> 
> Hope that answers the question sufficiently since we have been getting this a lot recently.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We have found 500hz is more stable not only with a variety of bus's and systems but the actual sensor algorithms and machine code we utilize in the srom still perform better and more consistently at 500hz.
> 
> These stability issues you will never be able to find at home. We use a Cartesian style 2 axis robot to do circle tests that we gauge a lot of our performance metrics on.
> 
> On top of this 8/10 cs go pros we worked with preferred the feeling of 500hz over 1k in a blind test. This is because at higher hz and framerates 1k hz can feel more slippery.
> 
> These are the main reasons. Obviously it's not hard to simply change the firmware register fields and make the mouse 1000hz but our entire brand philosophy revolves around making sure the mouse comes preequipped exactly how we believe it should be configured for esports/fps use.
> 
> Hope that answers the question sufficiently since we have been getting this a lot recently.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Sensor accuracy comes from both precision and responsiveness. You should base your product on science, not feelings..

Feeling will be so much affected by the fact that players have adjusted themselves for some kind of setup and their whole muscle memory works based on that. If they have used lesser sensors in the past with extensive delay, they prefer that only because their muscle memory is precise with that delay included..

Just fix the sensor delay. 4 m/s max speed is enough and little sensor inaccuracy is acceptable but delay is not..
Just remove some of the components in the sensor algorithms and machine code if that is what it takes to get rid of the delay, removing some complexity should help with the compatibility issues as well?


----------



## wareya

Blind tests are pure science, dude.


----------



## qsxcv

science is overrated
just look at the g302/3 shape


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> science is overrated
> just look at the g302/3 shape


I meant science in tech aspect only. People have different size/shape hands, that is why there should always be empirical tests performed.. Also, I don't really think Logitech took in account human anatomy and what kind of movements you should be able to perform when they created that g302/3 shape with "science".. Or they failed to find right things to take in account..

With sensor it is easy, make it to follow movement as accurately and instantaneous as possible, no "feeling tests" required..
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Blind tests are pure science, dude.


Not when they are based on feelings, not actual data..


----------



## qsxcv

what i mean is that it's incredibly easy to do "science" wrongly, and then draw premature conclusions which influence people's perceptions simply because our society values science so highly


----------



## wareya

>Not when they are based on feelings, not actual data..

Preferences are data. But I guess someone who doesn't run tests wouldn't know about tests.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >Not when they are based on feelings, not actual data..
> 
> Preferences are data. But I guess someone who doesn't run tests wouldn't know about tests.


What they call "preference" when talking about sensor performance is just a bunch of muscle memory that syncs with the sensor behavior, nothing more.. I am sure if you did same blind tests with people that have no muscle memory at all, they will prefer most accurate and instantaneous option..

When aiming towards best possible gaming performance, we should ignore the old muscle memory, use science to find the least hindering setup and then build a muscle memory for it..


----------



## wareya

I'm messing with you because you're using groundless hypotheticals to dismiss the results of an A-B test, which is objective science. Chill out.

So, where do we get to the point where 0.5ms of extra latency makes people prefer something without their knowing?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I'm messing with you because you're using groundless hypotheticals to dismiss the results of an A-B test, which is objective science. Chill out.
> 
> So, where do we get to the point where 0.5ms of extra latency makes people prefer something without their knowing?


I don't care about the refresh rate, 500hz is not a problem for me, 7ms sensor delay is a problem though.

I think 1000hz can be preferred over 500hz in a blind test. If I remember correctly, people have been able to tell the difference between 1000hz and 500hz in a blind test before..
I haven't done the blind test myself yet but I believe I could tell the difference as well when recalling my past experiences..


----------



## wareya

If you don't care about the hz, why are you arguing with me about whether their hz test is science? They could've possibly messed up, yes, but the basic concept is 100% sound and their results are not alarming to raise any flags.

>I believe I could tell the difference as well when recalling my past experiences..
I honestly do not believe you. At all.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> but the basic concept is 100% sound and their results are not alarming to raise any flags.


please dont tell me you trust them enough that one sentence about a blind test is enough for you


----------



## wareya

I trust them more than you.


----------



## qsxcv

well that's unfortunate


----------



## wareya

Not really, I'm proud of my ability to identify FUD. /s


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> If you don't care about the hz, why are you arguing with me about whether their hz test is science? They could've possibly messed up, yes, but the basic concept is 100% sound and their results are not alarming to raise any flags.
> 
> >I believe I could tell the difference as well when recalling my past experiences..
> I honestly do not believe you. At all.


It is useless to do blind testing if you have the science right in the first place. I guess they don't have it right and blind testing gives them a cover-up for their mistakes with implementation.
As you said if there is only 0.5 ms difference it should not be something to be felt in a blind test if the sensor tracking and pollingrate is otherwise accurate.. For example sometimes polling rate has some hick-ups causing micro-stuttering and that micro-stuttering is worse with 500hz than 1000hz.. http://www.blurbusters.com/mouse-125hz-vs-500hz-vs-1000hz/

So I think that using 500hz instead of 1000hz is a small problem but we should not even pay attention to it until we get that 7ms sensor delay fixed..


----------



## qsxcv

the second post in this thread is very relevant


----------



## wareya

>As you said if there is only 0.5 ms difference it should not be something to be felt in a blind test if the sensor tracking and pollingrate is otherwise accurate..

Except for all of those system problems that make 1000hz jitter on various computers because of the higher order of timing it introduces? The 0.5ms difference is merely that you won't perceptibly notice the difference in raw latency between the mice when you have a modern game engine and OS in the way. If you're running, like CS 1.6 through a fixed-timing GL renderer, sure, maybe.

>For example sometimes polling rate has some hick-ups causing micro-stuttering and that micro-stuttering is worse with 500hz than 1000hz..

Jabberwock. Polling rate "hiccups" aren't relative to the refresh rate of the mouse at all, and they occur more often on 1000hz for various reasons. 1000hz would be objectively better if various system configurations didn't mess up with fed it, yes, that much is obvious, but the blind test obviously implies that minor incompatibilities with various systems are a bigger deal than 0.5ms of extra latency, which perfectly justifies using 500hz instead of 1000hz. Next time you want to say that a blind test is jabberwock because it's subjective, how about you don't introduce your own anecdotes like they're meaningful?

>So I think that using 500hz instead of 1000hz is a small problem but we should not even pay attention to it until we get that 7ms sensor delay fixed..

I was never even talking about the 7ms sensor delay problem. There's nothing wrong with accepting that.


----------



## Jonagold

@wareya How do you explain me how other companies like Logitech and Razer have been able to enable non-stuttering 1000hz performance if it was only up to different configurations? And at least Logitech mice can be used without drivers as well..

And as I said, if science is done correctly, you don't need to do blind tests or compromise your polling-rate..


----------



## wareya

>@wareya How do you explain me how other companies like Logitech and Razer have been able to enable non-stuttering 1000hz performance if it was only up to different configurations? And at least Logitech mice can be used without drivers as well..

They don't. My OS wrecks itself when I run my DA at 1000hz.

>And as I said, if science is done correctly, you don't need to do blind tests or compromise your polling-rate..

The science is the blind test itself. You're thinking of engineering.


----------



## qsxcv

here are oscilloscope plots of the spi communications between mcu and sensor for g303 and finalmouse. feel free to interpret or misinterpret these however you like
g303









finalmouse








in this picture, left side is before there is motion, right side is after








here the fm is in motion all

i already posted my comments on this several weeks ago with i first found the mcu filtering


----------



## wareya

What on earth is this supposed to have to do with instabilities coming from the _system_?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> @wareya How do you explain me how other companies like Logitech and Razer have been able to enable non-stuttering 1000hz performance


just showing you that the finalmouse's firmware and/or mcu has issues with 1000hz, even on a system that can do 1000hz (e.g. HAGGARD's or mine),


----------



## wareya

Of course it does, they didn't manufacture it for 1000hz or anything. There's no way that their RnD was using the exact same firmware we have now. Unless you have some kind of prototype, you can't draw any direct conclusions about what they have internally.


----------



## qsxcv

yes but i can draw indirect conclusions about the technical competence of their "RnD". and they agree with those of other members of this forum who have much more knowledge of the mouse business than me


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >@wareya How do you explain me how other companies like Logitech and Razer have been able to enable non-stuttering 1000hz performance if it was only up to different configurations? And at least Logitech mice can be used without drivers as well..
> 
> They don't. My OS wrecks itself when I run my DA at 1000hz.
> 
> >And as I said, if science is done correctly, you don't need to do blind tests or compromise your polling-rate..
> 
> The science is the blind test itself. You're thinking of engineering.


Logitech mice are working fine without drivers as well. And as qsxcv tested, there is more to it than just a configuration variation..

a blind test to see if one can tell a difference between 1000hz and 500hz is science but you can't take comments about 500hz "feeling better" as science. Engineering was the right term indeed, if engineering is done correctly...


----------



## wareya

>a blind test to see if one can tell a difference between 1000hz and 500hz is science but you can't take comments about 500hz "feeling better" as science.

If you're running a test to see which feels better, yes, yes you absolutely can. Positively.


----------



## qsxcv

a blind test is a blind test and nothing more

science involves discussion and thinking about the theory, carefully designed tests, data analysis, drawing precise conclusions , and maybe most importantly, independent verification


----------



## wareya

"discussion and thinking about the theory" -- Pretty sure they did this if they decided to check whether 0.5ms or system compatibility are more important.
"carefully designed tests" -- This is virtually impossible to mess up with a blind test.
"data analysis" -- X in Z
"drawing precise conclusions" -- "Maybe 1000hz isn't so important after all" btw the word you're going for here is "accurate".
"independent verification" -- Anyone want to buy 10 1000hz prototype FMs from them?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> "discussion and thinking about the theory" -- Pretty sure


and i'm pretty sure of the opposite.
Quote:


> "carefully designed tests" -- This is virtually impossible to mess up with a blind test.


10 samples...
Quote:


> "data analysis" -- X in Z


ever heard of this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval#Statistical_hypothesis_testing

i'll give you a hint: 8/10 is next to meaningless.
Quote:


> "drawing precise conclusions" -- "Maybe 1000hz isn't so important after all"


Quote:


> precise


Quote:


> Maybe


uhmmm

the fact is that they did not report any of this, if these were done at all. all you have is one or sentences mentioning blind tests and the fact that you take that to =science is insane


----------



## wareya

"and i'm pretty sure of the opposite."

Care to explain, and not cut off my quote to maximally punctuate your own incomplete statement?

"10 samples..."

Separate issue.

"i'll give you a hint: 8/10 is next to meaningless."

Go on, tell me how important statistical confidence is in this context.

"precise"

Again, the word you're going for here is "accurate". Pretty sure they never said anything stupid like "500hz is definitely positively a better idea than 1000hz in 80% of situations".


----------



## qsxcv

i dont even know what we're talking about anymore. just wanted to let you know that science may involve blind tests, but doing a blind test in itself is not doing science


----------



## wareya

I already know how hard science works, and how statistics work, thanks. I'm not a middleschooler.


----------



## qsxcv

well then you should understand how meaningful 8/10 is


----------



## wareya

It all depends on intent. Unfortunately, people who are obsessed with hard science sometimes deliberately blind themselves to context.


----------



## Jonagold

wareya, this discussion about blind tests is not causing/leading to anything useful, therefore I am seeking to end it here. In the context of this subject and to the point; blind test of how people are feeling about 500hz and 1000hz is not giving us any relevant data because feeling/preference can be caused something else than a good sensor performance and not necessarily even related to it. Therefore the feeling is not a reliable indicator of a sensor performance when there are other things involved.. (e.g. old muscle memory)


----------



## bank1997

but hey your name sound like Thai people, Wa-re-ya and do you use finalmouse?


----------



## Buttnose

Anyone found any 3rd party feet for these? Saw the post earlier with someone using feet meant for another mouse, but would like to use fitted ones. I used to use puretrak perfectglides, hoping theres something similar out there.

Also to the people discussing movement delay, coming from my Deathadder BE there was a very noticeable delay moving the cursor about on my desktop. I'd be interested in seeing more comparisons between the FM and other mice in terms of movement delay.


----------



## Melan

MS-1 Hyperglides.


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> MS-1 Hyperglides.


I saw those already and would prefer something that actually fits the whole allocated space for the feet.


----------



## Jonagold

I had to change to DA Chrome, I rather have 7ms delay in buttons than in sensor..


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> I saw those already and would prefer something that actually fits the whole allocated space for the feet.


As the person using feet for intellimice on my FM, tbh it was the only option I could find aside from getting a sheet of PTFE and doing a DIY job. While the shell seems very much based on the Imperator the feet layout is different, no other mice I found matched and to be frank FM is still a pretty small and new company, I doubt 3rd party replacements will be available for a while yet.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> Anyone found any 3rd party feet for these? Saw the post earlier with someone using feet meant for another mouse, but would like to use fitted ones. I used to use puretrak perfectglides, hoping theres something similar out there.
> 
> Also to the people discussing movement delay, coming from my Deathadder BE there was a very noticeable delay moving the cursor about on my desktop. I'd be interested in seeing more comparisons between the FM and other mice in terms of movement delay.


I cut my own feet from 0.6mm tiger sheet I had sitting around, get a sharp scissor and works great using the current feet as a template.

Right now though my Final Mouse is relegated to backup duty for the Naos 7000. I am disappointed in some of the technical mumbo jumbo they are presenting here, wish they would just give it to everyone straight, and also release the 500/1000 mcu smoothing off/on firmware(s).


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> and also release the 500/1000 mcu smoothing off/on firmware(s).


i'm impatiently waiting for this too.


----------



## tramas

Guys i'm planning to buy the FM, but recently i watched some comments regarding movement delay, is that true?

In case of "yes", is this delay on all FM? or only in faulty sensor ones?

I'm asking this because i'm going to spend 83€ on buying it and I dont want to waste my money.


----------



## kaptchka

No it appears there isn't any more or less delay than any other 3310 sensor. So far it seems that mlt04 and 3366 may inheritently have a minor 1 ms advantage. And so far this is only based on very subjective tests that may be prone to human error. There may also be a rare qc issue that could cause excess delay but so far this has only been seen with one person.

I ran the mousetester tests with two 3310 mice and there was no way I could find any statistical pattern or evidence of one mouse having more delay than another. I suspect that mice with the same sensor and srom are simply going to have very identical input latency. Because the KPM is the only mouse I found to be consistently slower, and I believe that is due to it having an out of date srom. The 3366 1 ms advantage may also simply be due to the higher frame rate.


----------



## nsdjoe

My Finalmouse 2015 SE has started developing issues. About every 10 minutes the sensor just seems to stop accepting input for about a second at a time. Does this jibe with what other people's issues have been? Anyone know how good FM is about issuing RMAs?


----------



## wareya

I had the same issue and returned my FM to amazon. Good to see I'm not alone in getting a defect.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nsdjoe*
> 
> My Finalmouse 2015 SE has started developing issues. About every 10 minutes the sensor just seems to stop accepting input for about a second at a time. Does this jibe with what other people's issues have been? Anyone know how good FM is about issuing RMAs?


i have the summer edition and mine has been flawless thus far, i've owned the summer edition since they went live, so its like what? a couple months old at this point?
i've actually been pretty away from this forum now that i have a mouse that doesnt suck (and i have LOTS of mice).


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> No it appears there isn't any more or less delay than any other 3310 sensor. So far it seems that mlt04 and 3366 may inheritently have a minor 1 ms advantage. And so far this is only based on very subjective tests that may be prone to human error. There may also be a rare qc issue that could cause excess delay but so far this has only been seen with one person.
> 
> I ran the mousetester tests with two 3310 mice and there was no way I could find any statistical pattern or evidence of one mouse having more delay than another. I suspect that mice with the same sensor and srom are simply going to have very identical input latency. Because the KPM is the only mouse I found to be consistently slower, and I believe that is due to it having an out of date srom. The 3366 1 ms advantage may also simply be due to the higher frame rate.


At least 3 people have reported extensive sensor delay compared to under 1ms delay mice.. And the delay has been around 7ms..

I am interested to know if it really was just some faulty units, but so far it doesn't seem likely..

kaptchka, did you do the test that was introduced earlier, it should be very accurate unless there is some kind of input mixing with buggy usb -ports and even then it would just hide the delay, not cause it.. Be sure to have both mice still until you move them simultaneously.
I recommend using tape to tape mice together but you can do it without as well, you will easily notice when there is an invalid test..


----------



## wareya

I had a faulty unit with low latency (lower than da 3.5g), so it's separate problems.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I had a faulty unit with low latency (lower than da 3.5g), so it's separate problems.


How can low latency be a problem seriously? And do you mean sensor movement delay or button delay?


----------



## wareya

You completely misread my post. I specifically said that the latency wasn't the only defect and that "defective FM" shouldn't be taken to mean "high latency".


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> You completely misread my post. I specifically said that the latency wasn't the only defect and that "defective FM" shouldn't be taken to mean "high latency".


What kind of problems you had with the faulty unit?


----------



## wareya

Stuttering/hitching like I responded to just a few posts earlier. Mouse stops accepting input for a large fraction of a second for no reason at all.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Stuttering/hitching like I responded to just a few posts earlier. Mouse stops accepting input for a large fraction of a second for no reason at all.


And your unit had a low sensor delay? IF so then it could actually be possible to get rid of the sensor delay somehow, unless the latency is just to fix those stutter problems..


----------



## wareya

The delay and stutter are completely separate problems, and there are people with completely fine units.


----------



## griffinz

I managed to pickup a Motospeed V2 (same shell as the FinalMouse) just to check it out. The fit and finish of the shell on the Motospeed V2 was actually better than my Final Mouse, the 3050 sensor was slightly worse, but not as bad as I was expecting for the price.


----------



## qsxcv

how does the build quality on the inside compare?


----------



## marts30

Is there no way we can turn off the LED? How did this get through testing?


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> how does the build quality on the inside compare?




There is a quick internal shot of the Motospeed V2. I haven't opened the Final Mouse, I am assuming that extra weight is missing, and nothing looks terrible in there as far as build.


----------



## qsxcv

well soldering on my fm was terrible.

and apparently they didnt even solder the third pin on the switches...


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well soldering on my fm was terrible.
> 
> and apparently they didnt even solder the third pin on the switches...


I got the FM 2015 SE open now as well.

Looks about the same, I am no expert on solder quality, some if it looks a bit sloppy but nothing that won't work. But indeed the third pin is not soldered on any of the final mouse switches, but is soldered on the left mouse button of the motospeed, but not the others.

Here are some shots of the FM 2015 SE.





Black board is FM, Red board is Motospeed V2:


----------



## qsxcv

well it doesnt really matter but the thing that gave me a bad impression was that i barely pressed on one of the capacitors and the soldering broke


----------



## griffinz

Further review of the internals/build:

The FinalMouse buttons feel a bit sloppy compared to the Motospeed V2 simply because they didn't adjust for the height difference of the Huano greens in the Motospeed vs the Omrons in the FM creating a deadzone before the switch is hit. This is really sloppy/unacceptable.

The Motospeed V2 also doesn't suffer from the front mouse foot recesses being different depth, my FM has this issue I had to shim up the RMB side to make it even (it appears the LMB foot is not recessed enough).

These are really things they should have caught before releasing a product.

Excluding the sensor performance, due to these fit and finish issues which would have been easy to spot, and easy to fix, I wouldn't recommend the mouse unless you want to tinker with it to get the proper fit and finish.


----------



## Nilizum

Dude, what? There is nothing sloppy with the clicks on the FM. There is no deadzone. It is pretty acceptable.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Dude, what? There is nothing sloppy with the clicks on the FM. There is no deadzone. It is pretty acceptable.


I don't doubt your specific Final Mouse may not have the issue, but that is part of the quality problem. My right mouse button needed ~0.3mm more padding to reach the switch w/o a deadzone.

Here is a picture of the stock FinalMouse 2015 SE internals, you can see the small shims they added to attempt to address the problem (rather than increasing the length of the contacts of the shell mold). In the case of my mouse the small black circular sticker simply wasn't thick enough to account for the difference in height between the Omrons FinalMouse used, and the original design spec of the Motospeed V2 which used slightly taller Huano Greens. Using tiny little sticker shims is sloppy, the proper way to address this would have been to either alter the mold, or raise the switch mounting height on the pcb.


----------



## Axaion

Have to tried superglueing some thin hard plastic on the plunger?, wouldent feel mushy at all that way, also wouldent fall off (this happens with tape and so on..)


----------



## aLv1080

Have anyone seen this?


Source

I think it looks pretty cool tbh


----------



## Scharfschutzen

Not sure if this was brought up already, but since it appears the Motospeed V2 shell is better, could the it be used with the FM internals?


----------



## DRiMR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> 
> 
> There is a quick internal shot of the Motospeed V2. I haven't opened the Final Mouse, I am assuming that extra weight is missing, and nothing looks terrible in there as far as build.


Can you remove the extra weight, it feels better then?


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DRiMR*
> 
> Can you remove the extra weight, it feels better then?


Yes you can remove the extra weight from the motospeed v2, it's only held in by one screw as pictured. The finalmouse does not include any extra weights.


----------



## tampix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Have anyone seen this?
> 
> 
> Source
> 
> I think it looks pretty cool tbh


Looks like an half bred between a WMO and a DeathAdder. Pretty cool stuff








Let's just hope they get the WMO butt right.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Does anyone have a click latency bump test result for the FM2015. Preferably one comparing it with a Logitech mouse? If someone already did please link me as scrolling through 200 pages is simply terrifying.


----------



## wareya

It was lower than my DA 3.5g, but past that, I don't know. I don't have it anymore.


----------



## qsxcv

iirc pretty much same as logitech. aka not something to worry about


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Does anyone have a click latency bump test result for the FM2015. Preferably one comparing it with a Logitech mouse? If someone already did please link me as scrolling through 200 pages is simply terrifying.


The FinalMouse is on par with Logitech g100s +/-1 ms, tested it couple of times.. 7ms sensor delay makes the mouse useless for me, haven't seen anyone released results that would prove other units to have any less delay..


----------



## wareya

My FM beat my DA 3.5g for latency, find a DA 3.5g test and say that there are FMs that are better than it.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> My FM beat my DA 3.5g for latency, find a DA 3.5g test and say that there are FMs that are better than it.


You are saying that but you haven't posted any/enough data aka screenshots on this thread to prove that you have done the test and done it right..


----------



## wareya

How is my anecdote any more useless than yours when it's clear that yours is the one that stands out as unusual against the others?

Have you RMA'd your FM yet or did you do something stupid to break warranty?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Thank forthe swift reply. What do you mean by sensor delay?


----------



## wareya

Jonagold has a defective FM with 7ms of sensor delay on his system and insists that most other FMs must be like their own (bad induction). Despite that, the fact that Jonagold has a defective FM implies that there's a chance that there are a large number of FMs with defective sensors, because this kind of defect is hard to come out of such minor quality control issues. Additionally, a couple of people, myself included, have gotten FMs with sensors that constantly re-calibrate and stutter. But there are FMs that do not have either defect out there. We just don't know what the proportion of defective FMs to clean FMs is.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Jonagold has a defective FM with 7ms of sensor delay on his system and insists that most other FMs must be like their own (bad induction). Despite that, the fact that Jonagold has a defective FM implies that there's a chance that there are a large number of FMs with defective sensors, because this kind of defect is hard to come out of such minor quality control issues. Additionally, a couple of people, myself included, have gotten FMs with sensors that constantly re-calibrate and stutter. But there are FMs that do not have either defect out there. We just don't know what the proportion of defective FMs to clean FMs is.


I find it hard to believe that constant 7 ms delay is caused by a defective unit. Still waiting your testing results or anyone's testing results that proves me wrong, I am hoping to be wrong ofc so then I could RMA my unit for one that has no delay..


----------



## wareya

Several people, not just me, have told you that 7ms delay is totally unreasonable and there's no reason your FM should have that much delay. I know that you want a mousetester comparison, but that's not the only kind of data that exists. If you have 7ms delay, your FM is somehow defective. Maybe it got flashed with a buggy firmware, maybe it's underilluminated, maybe they managed to somehow get a completely different mouse's PCB in there, maybe there's a batch of defective 3310s, but it's not a normal FM.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Several people, not just me, have told you that 7ms delay is totally unreasonable and there's no reason your FM should have that much delay. I know that you want a mousetester comparison, but that's not the only kind of data that exists. If you have 7ms delay, your FM is somehow defective. Maybe it got flashed with a buggy firmware, maybe it's underilluminated, maybe they managed to somehow get a completely different mouse's PCB in there, maybe there's a batch of defective 3310s, but it's not a normal FM.


The problem is that I need a confirmation that my unit is indeed defective, I don't want to end up in a situation that they send the unit back saying there is nothing wrong with it and then I would need to pay the shipping as well which would be pretty much since I live in Finland and get an unit that is completely useless for me..

I had to RMA my first unit because it died completely and this second unit seems to be defective as well


----------



## wareya

Ok, that's reasonable now.


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Have anyone seen this?
> 
> 
> Source
> 
> I think it looks pretty cool tbh


I'm just enjoying my FM2015SE at this moment but OH man these pics look amazing, they definitely heard suggestions regarding the WMO shape, I have one and I can say its the most comfortable shape for a palm/claw gripper. Well, actually that shape is pretty universal so I hope they got it right with this new version coming soon.

I see they have reworked the side buttons and got rid of the thumb groove which is great. I hope they have improved the scrollwheel; revised the main buttons so everybody could get the nice and responsive clicks I got in my current FM2015SE; keep the very low button/click latency and finally, I hope they have managed to get the new version with 1000hz and tweaked the firmware algorithms on the sensor side so it could be a perfect mouse or get close to it.


----------



## wareya

God, the thumb groove made the width just right. It looks like they just removed the ring around the groove rather than pulling the groove out, though, which is a good thing. I REALLY hope they didn't remove the ring finger groove; that made it basically perfect. I also really hope they didn't make it too tall. I can't tell from looking at it. If they put buttons on the right side (facebook says it's Ambi), I won't be able to use it.


----------



## detto87

Shape looks really good from the pictures. If the size and weight are comparable to the WMO we might have a winner in terms of ergonomics and design. Hope they put some effort into sensor tech and buttons/wheel. Just release that shape with the 3366. *throws gold bar at monitor*


----------



## qsxcv

@woll3: can you find a odm shell that looks like that?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Anyone know when the FM Ambi going to be available in US? This seems like the perfect replacement for my dying G303


----------



## Sencha

Judging by the pics it looks quite a way off


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Judging by the pics it looks quite a way off


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Anyone know when the FM Ambi going to be available in US? This seems like the perfect replacement for my dying G303


In 2 days

Kappa


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



They have just posted that prototype pic a few days ago, just relax dude. It will take a while unfortunately :/


----------



## rean7mator

Can someone make a test -review of motospeed v-2 ? What LOD it have? malfunction speed, prediction, maybe some mouse test and in-game test etc.. pls.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marts30*
> 
> Is there no way we can turn off the LED? How did this get through testing?


Two screws under the rear mouse feet, once inside you can just cut the LEDs out.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> In 2 days
> 
> Kappa
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> They have just posted that prototype pic a few days ago, just relax dude. It will take a while unfortunately :/





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Every day I lose a bit of muscle memory










Jude spill the beans already D:


----------



## DRiMR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rean7mator*
> 
> Can someone make a test -review of motospeed v-2 ? What LOD it have? malfunction speed, prediction, maybe some mouse test and in-game test etc.. pls.


I really like this mouse, there is avago 3050 implementation which works great, better than a3050 in my CM xornet or kinzu v3. LOD is really low. I play only CS:GO and this sensor perform there very well I didnt notice a single problem and with the lowest dpi settings I cant feel big difference between this a3050 a "top" sensors (3310, 3090, 3989, 3366) which are using my other mice. Mouse clicks are really good and build quality is awesome! I cant believe that this mouse cost me only 15 $ .


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DRiMR*
> 
> I cant believe that this mouse cost me only 15 $ .


/thread


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DRiMR*
> 
> I really like this mouse, there is avago 3050 implementation which works great, better than a3050 in my CM xornet or kinzu v3. LOD is really low. I play only CS:GO and this sensor perform there very well I didnt notice a single problem and with the lowest dpi settings I cant feel big difference between this a3050 a "top" sensors (3310, 3090, 3989, 3366) which are using my other mice. Mouse clicks are really good and build quality is awesome! I cant believe that this mouse cost me only 15 $ .


The malfunction speed on the Motospeed V2 is less than 1m/s on a black cloth pad, that is not good at all, but up until that point the mouse/sensor works pretty well.

My Motospeed V2 did however have better build quality than my Final Mouse. The little sticker shims on the button plungers of the Final Mouse are a joke on a 'premium' mouse, the plunger length is why the side buttons don't feel as good as they could on the Final Mouse.

I actually am using the top of the Motospeed V2 on my Final Mouse chassis, shim'd all the button plungers to the proper length to remove any play from the side or primary buttons, and cut the rear LED. I like to tinker and do like the feel of the sensor even with the minor MCU smoothing, but all this shouldn't be required on a top gaming mouse. Final Mouse could have a much better mouse with almost no more work or cost, its frustrating.

My FinalMouse/MotoSpeed V2 frankenmouse (although I primarily use the Naos 7000, even though it has some sensor smoothing---why do they do this???--- it feels really nice):


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Well the motospeed uses the A3050. I have pure blind hate for that sensor. Even with optical switches, I will never touch a Bloody mouse because they use that sensor.


----------



## PU skunk

Jude, please consider giving the ambi FM a longer cord.
I'm tethered on a short leash while sitting at the big screen.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> I'm just enjoying my FM2015SE at this moment but OH man these pics look amazing, they definitely heard suggestions regarding the WMO shape, I have one and I can say its the most comfortable shape for a palm/claw gripper. Well, actually that shape is pretty universal so I hope they got it right with this new version coming soon.
> 
> I see they have reworked the side buttons and got rid of the thumb groove which is great. I hope they have improved the scrollwheel; revised the main buttons so everybody could get the nice and responsive clicks I got in my current FM2015SE; keep the very low button/click latency and finally, I hope they have managed to get the new version with 1000hz and tweaked the firmware algorithms on the sensor side so it could be a perfect mouse or get close to it.


Bruh wth? That's Newmen GX2 mold.

I mean, aside from the top shell clicker design, it's GX2 reincarnate.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Bruh wth? That's Newmen GX2 mold.


hm shape looks super similar
http://detail.zol.com.cn/picture_index_1372/index13713326_0_p384362.shtml#/&pn=5

wheel protrudes out a bit more in their pictures though


----------



## Nilizum

If it's 125mm like the GX2, then I hope they follow their 'exactly centered' sensor position because it actually works with that mold (at ~61-~62mm).

Hmm, upon further looking, it SEEMS their butt is more rounded than the GX2. Not sure because images are too small.


----------



## qsxcv

yea gx2 looks thinner at the rear

could be that the camera in the fm pictures was really close though


----------



## Nilizum

Huh. To me I thought the FM's mock up had a thinner rear. The GX2 butt is square like the GX1pro


----------



## qsxcv

yea i see what you mean

i meant thinner as in height


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@FinalmouseJude Is there a reason the scroll wheel is so far back on the Ambi, or is it just something you didn't touch from the original? Can you tell us the current dimensions of the mouse?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VolsAndJezuz*
> 
> I should probably know this, but can I get a quick wiki on why people are so hype about the 3366? Compare/contrast with 3310 would be ideal.


It's because skylit said it had the most advanced architecture. That's all it took for it to become the most overhyped sensor in history.


----------



## Nilizum

Assuming it's 125mm, it's not that far back compared to a kinzu which is pretty far back.


----------



## benllok

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Bruh wth? That's Newmen GX2 mold.
> 
> I mean, aside from the top shell clicker design, it's GX2 reincarnate.


Come on dude, that G2X is more like an ambi DA. Its butt or palm rest is pretty similar to a DA, center height is just lower and overall length seems shorter too.

Newmen G2X:
http://2e.zol-img.com.cn/product/137_800x600/298/cepVbzlcC9qLk.jpg

Lefty Deathadder:
https://ecs4.tokopedia.net/newimg/product-1/2014/4/13/3707124/3707124_20669566-c2d0-11e3-8ee7-6de74908a8c2.jpg

Normal Deathadder:
http://jerryneutron.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/DSC_1196b.jpg


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Bruh wth? That's Newmen GX2 mold.
> 
> I mean, aside from the top shell clicker design, it's GX2 reincarnate.


It looks similar indeed.

Btw, what's the GX2 sensor? The 3305?
I'm talking about the normal one, the GX2 Pro has the 3090


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benllok*
> 
> Come on dude, that G2X is more like an ambi DA. Its butt or palm rest is pretty similar to a DA, center height is just lower and overall length seems shorter too.
> 
> Newmen G2X:
> http://2e.zol-img.com.cn/product/137_800x600/298/cepVbzlcC9qLk.jpg
> 
> Lefty Deathadder:
> https://ecs4.tokopedia.net/newimg/product-1/2014/4/13/3707124/3707124_20669566-c2d0-11e3-8ee7-6de74908a8c2.jpg
> 
> Normal Deathadder:
> http://jerryneutron.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/DSC_1196b.jpg


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tampix*
> 
> Looks like an half bred between a WMO and a DeathAdder. Pretty cool stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's just hope they get the WMO butt right.


Seems like another user is saying the same thing about the FM mock up.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> It looks similar indeed.
> 
> Btw, what's the GX2 sensor? The 3305?
> I'm talking about the normal one, the GX2 Pro has the 3090


From the lens, looks like 3305DK, yea I think you're right.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's because skylit said it had the most advanced architecture. That's all it took for it to become the most overhyped sensor in history.


and i could say that finalmouse is overhyped because of all your comments


----------



## kaptchka

In all fairness to Max, despite me knowing that the 3366 is technically more capable, the FM still feels better than my 303. I realize this could be for a variety of reasons, but I undeniably perform/aim better with it. And this doesn't just go for the FM. There are plenty of 3310 mice that have felt better than the 303 for me so far. There's something about the 3366 tracking that is just... off. My theory is that the SROM behind the 3366 just isn't as fine tuned as it should be.

The fact is at this point, with knowing the hardware with the 3366 I should have experienced a placebo in its favor. But the FM's tracking feels way better to me.

@finalmousejude throwing money at my monitor but nothing is happening. WHEN does the AMBI get released and when can I get my hands on it? The shape looks absolutely perfect. It looks like a WMO, Sensei, and the DA all had a baby and this is its offspring







Can you give us anymore info on it spec wise?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> There are plenty of 3310 mice that have felt better than the 303 for me so far.


im curious; which ones?


----------



## Nilizum

What kind of game you play kaptchka? If it's CSGO or something related then better aiming is in favor of CSGO's precision based nature and has nothing to do with the SROM or sensor tech. I am saying this because the performance of 3310 and 3366 are at performance levels where it is impossible for people to quantify. The inclined grip style/position of the FM vs. the inclined grip style/position of the G302/G303 is lower(FM) than the G302/G303(higher). This gives users more precision for angular movement when the position is under the medium(point between low and high sensor position). In my experience, the G303 is above the medium and the FM is below. So although the G303 has more mobility at above the medium, it will have less precision than the FM at a higher precision and less mobility position.

In context, the 3366 while yes, technically more capable, has its extra capabilities moot as a user cannot utilize it anyways.

---

I mean, I can say for a game like TF2 my GX1-Pro feels better than a GX1-Glare at the same cm/360, however the inclined grip/style makes the GX1-Glare sensor position lower than the GX1-Pro, where I would prefer the GX1-Pro for the mobility since TF2 is more mobility based aiming than precision based aiming. Well, someone could argue against that, but that is from my experience of 1800+ hours non idle. I used those two as an example as they have the same sensor, however different shapes. Conversely, I'd prefer the GX1-Glare in precision based games like CS:GO.

I hope people stop blaming sensor sRom or whatever first before actual noticeable causes like sensor position, shapes, inclined grips.

disclaimer: Before someone comments about inclined grips being for "me" or for "preference", there's a reason why the curves or thumb grooves or scroll wheel placements are set the way they are.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude Is there a reason the scroll wheel is so far back on the Ambi, or is it just something you didn't touch from the original? Can you tell us the current dimensions of the mouse?
> It's because skylit said it had the most advanced architecture. That's all it took for it to become the most overhyped sensor in history.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> and i could say that finalmouse is overhyped because of all your comments


@Max you've been overhyping the FM more than any other person has hyped anything else here AND you provide absolutely no content. all you do is say the 3366 is bad


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> @Max you've been overhyping the FM more than any other person has hyped anything else here AND you provide absolutely no content.


I'm pretty sure he's getting paid by Finalmouse.


----------



## wareya

lol yeah right
Keep up the boogeymanning


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> I'm pretty sure he's getting paid by Finalmouse.


doubt it, given his opinions about the 3366 from even before the fm was announced: http://www.esreality.com/post/2675014/3366-is-quite-over-hyped/
unless finalmouse collaborated with him october 2014 telling him to spread as much fud about 3366 as possible







not impossible since the guy(s) behind finalmouse have been around since at least 2012 but honestly i doubt it


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronal*
> 
> I'm pretty sure he's getting paid by Finalmouse.


Paid reviews are spineless, flaccid, fact only, sugar coated walls of text devoid of personal opinion. You don't have to look far for these. Max's reviews and comments do not seem that way to me. Regardless of if anyone agrees with him, his opinions seem sincere and... well... opinionated.


----------



## Nilizum

Overhyped, opinionated or not, the FM 2015 is one of the better performance solutions for players at the moment. But saying 3366 or 3310 is better or worse than the other is pure blasphemy.

Very interested to see how they pull off the ambidextrous one.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> the FM 2015 is one of the better performance solutions for players at the moment.


and also overpriced, not-very-clean firmware, spotty build quality, cheap switches, plus some shady history :/

well they're still relatively new and have room to grow. hope they address some of this in the ambi version; it would be disappointing if it turns out to be identical to the summer edition except for the shell


----------



## Nilizum

I don't know about interior build quality since im too lazy to open mine up (so I will take everyone else's word for it), however I can comment about the exterior. The one I got had a piece of the rubber sticking out on the scroll wheel which could be peeled off. Luckily it was only very minor. At the butt there is a crease that looks cheaply melded together. That's about all I can see so far with my unit.

As for the price, well... Yes, $70 is a bit much for what it is, but at least better than the Razer Imperator.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

You really think this is a review from someone who's getting paid to promote this mouse? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd&index=2

I've been critical of every mouse I've ever tested/reviewed.

I haven't been able to get around to finishing my testing of my SE yet. I've been taking a break. But I can say that it's definitely not perfect _(I think a big factor might be shoddy manufacturing quality)_, but it does one unknown and very important thing quite well.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> Assuming it's 125mm, it's not that far back compared to a kinzu which is pretty far back.


Why are we comparing it to the kinzu?

I don't see a reason for any mouse wheel to be far back. The further forward the better IMO. As it would make it easier to scroll it with the middle finger so you can keep your index on the trigger.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> and i could say that finalmouse is overhyped because of all your comments


Come on, I'm far from the only one. I don't even know if I was the first... there have been a number of people who did reviews on youtube and websites who said the same thing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of game you play kaptchka? If it's CSGO or something related then better aiming is in favor of CSGO's precision based nature and has nothing to do with the SROM or sensor tech. *I am saying this because the performance of 3310 and 3366 are at performance levels where it is impossible for people to quantify.* The inclined grip style/position of the FM vs. the inclined grip style/position of the G302/G303 is lower(FM) than the G302/G303(higher). This gives users more precision for angular movement when the position is under the medium(point between low and high sensor position). In my experience, the G303 is above the medium and the FM is below. So although the G303 has more mobility at above the medium, it will have less precision than the FM at a higher precision and less mobility position.
> 
> In context, the 3366 while yes, technically more capable, has its extra capabilities moot as a user cannot utilize it anyways.
> 
> ---
> 
> I mean, I can say for a game like TF2 my GX1-Pro feels better than a GX1-Glare at the same cm/360, however the inclined grip/style makes the GX1-Glare sensor position lower than the GX1-Pro, where I would prefer the GX1-Pro for the mobility since TF2 is more mobility based aiming than precision based aiming. Well, someone could argue against that, but that is from my experience of 1800+ hours non idle. I used those two as an example as they have the same sensor, however different shapes. Conversely, I'd prefer the GX1-Glare in precision based games like CS:GO.
> 
> I hope people stop blaming sensor sRom or whatever first before actual noticeable causes like sensor position, shapes, inclined grips.
> 
> disclaimer: Before someone comments about inclined grips being for "me" or for "preference", there's a reason why the curves or thumb grooves or scroll wheel placements are set the way they are.


IMO you put too much emphasis on sensor positioning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCj6plbNuuE&index=1&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - exact same shells, drastically different sensor performance. There is no way we're at a point where it's impossible for people to differentiate between sensor performance in game. More likely there is a limiting factor on the user end of people who can't tell the difference. Monitor hz over 100 seems to be important.

I preferred the FK1 shape to other mice, but the sensor performance of mine was awful.

The shape/grip of the FM is only tolerable. It's far from ideal. The Aurora is even lighter but the FM performs better.


----------



## Maximillion

@MaximilianKohler you should test the R.A.T. TE next (make sure you're using a "proper" surface). I wonder where it's sensor performance falls in your personal ranks. You'll probably dislike the shape, though.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

This mouse looks like the definition of casual fluff. What makes you think it's worth testing?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This mouse looks like the definition of casual fluff. What makes you think it's worth testing?


I guess you missed out on the great PTE debate.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This mouse looks like the definition of casual fluff. What makes you think it's worth testing?


What Ino said. There's been a bit of praise for PTE sensors (specifically the PLN2034) here recently. This thread is a good start.

I'd say it's worth a shot at the least, for science.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

That link says they're bad on cloth pads and I only have cloth pads.

EDIT: oh I see, the whole thread is a debate.

Well PTE's been out for a while and I haven't heard much praise for it. Seems like there's probably a good reason it's not very common.


----------



## ALT F4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> im curious; which ones?


I'd like to know myself








I'm looking between this mouse and the g303, looking forward to try the clicking on the g303. This mouse looks closer to the DA and g400 which I like the design of but I can't stand the clicks on the DA.


----------



## ncck

I'm looking at this and the za series...... i have no idea what I really want though, I've been through so many mice and it's not that they have sensor problems anymore really... it's just either I'm not comfortable with the shape or the clicks

They're just so expensive and no way to trial them in store, feel like I just shouldn't even risk it


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I'm looking at this and the za series...... i have no idea what I really want though, I've been through so many mice and it's not that they have sensor problems anymore really... it's just either I'm not comfortable with the shape or the clicks
> 
> They're just so expensive and no way to trial them in store, feel like I just shouldn't even risk it


You could try it via Amazon since they have an excellent return policy


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yeah, I buy and return all my mice from Amazon. I'd at least wait for the Ambi version though. Hopefully it comes with further manufacturing quality improvements.


----------



## wareya

It should, I saw a lot of ordinary people with FMs on youtube.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

All right, first few TF2 games with the FM2015.

+ sensor. Wow it's nice. Can tell straight away, very responsive movement, no lag (1600 dpi atm).
+ Scrollwheel. Very nice and weighted. Good grip, good scroll, more premium feel than the Zowies.
+ Shape overall comfortable, nothing crazy. Good height on buttons, not having to claw grip to reach down.
+ M1/M2 Buttons. responsive, light.
+ Weight. very light which is nice, but nothing too crazy. I'd say, FK2013 light.
+ scrollwheel light. Nice and dim.

- Thumb indent. Groove too deep. Would be OK with a straighter thumb recess, like WMO / ZA11.
- Thumb wheel slightly too far back, but nothing as bad as I expected.
- Back light. Too brights and pointless. Scrollwheel light is good enough (if maybe even, unnecessary).
- Build Quality. Maybe I've been too used to zowies, but it's not the same, for sure. Feels slightly looser, especially buttons.
- Thumb button. Rather stiff but usable, cheap glossy plastic.Meh.
- All buttons slightly looser than the zowies. Again, could be to do with why the Zowie being stiffer to click. Seems like a typical Omron mouse.
- Cable a bit stiff, but it's braided. No worries for me with a Camade. Elevated a bit, so it doesn't drag on the mouse pad.
- Package. Cheap, but who cares right? The box came pretty banged up, and weirdly coated in a very thin brown dust. that's the distributor problem.

So yeah. Feels flimsier than the zowies, tolerances could be improved, but that's a OEM shell. Good clicks (except thumbs), good wheel, superb sensor, thumb indent too pronounced. No worries on the other side (thought the glossy right side would be an issue, but meh). Teflon feet looks OK, coating OK, whatever.

So basically, worth waiting for the new ambi design IMO. The core components are really nice, the shell is substandard but still comfortable and workaday enough. And get rid of the back light.

Bye bye, Zowies. You've been great, but this is more my bag, until it falls apart or something.


----------



## qsxcv

alright something does not add up
i used the full diagonal of my supermat and swiped as hard as i could:

not sure if malfunction or if the mouse simply reached the end of the pad at 7m/s
edit: pretty sure it's malfunction. if i swipe at ~5m/s the plot just cuts off.

but how is 7m/s possible??

theoretically the max possible for an ics sensor should be (array dimension) / (imaged area density/base cpi/whatever) * (framerate). above this value, adjacent frames do not have any real overlap at all. 3310 is 30x30, 800/inch, 6500fps. plugging in the numbers: 30/800*6500 = 243.75inch/sec = 6.19m/s


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> alright something does not add up
> i used the full diagonal of my supermat and swiped as hard as i could:
> 
> not sure if malfunction or if the mouse simply reached the end of the pad at 7m/s
> but how is 7m/s possible??
> 
> theoretically the max possible for an ics sensor should be (array dimension) / (imaged area density/base cpi/whatever) * (framerate). above this value, adjacent frames do not have any real overlap at all. 3310 is 30x30, 800/inch, 6500fps. plugging in the numbers: 30/800*6500 = 243.75inch/sec = 6.19m/s


Some kind of prediction/smoothing.. The sensor does not have a raw feeling IMO not as raw as g100s for example, still using this cause of the weight and modded shape.. (will post pictures when completed)


----------



## qsxcv

must be doing something really whack in order to predict motion when there's no overlap between frames..... maybe the sensor just assumes a constant acceleration and extrapolates motion for a little bit.

when i tried the fm today i'm fairly sure i can notice the smoothing. the tracking feels nice but it just feels kind of floaty. could be placebo due to knowing way too much about sensors









and as to what to call the mcu filtering/postprocessing/whatever, i think this post by bst may settle it.
http://esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2679310
Quote:


> Bear in mind I had the factory develop the mouse without any smoothing in the beginning because there was going to be an option to enable it in the software, but it was fine without it so it was never added. For all you know, every other company added extra smoothing in the MCU. At least I was thinking about it at the beginning way before anyone else like r0ach was talking about it.


but actually i'm 90% (based on mousetester plots) sure that the aurora has this as well, at 500hz, but not at 1000hz.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> must be doing something really whack in order to predict motion when there's no overlap between frames..... maybe the sensor just assumes a constant acceleration and extrapolates motion for a little bit.
> 
> when i tried the fm today i'm fairly sure i can notice the smoothing. the tracking feels nice but it just feels kind of floaty. could be placebo due to knowing way too much about sensors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and as to what to call the mcu filtering/postprocessing/whatever, i think this post by bst may settle it.
> http://esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2679310
> but actually i'm 90% (based on mousetester plots) sure that the aurora has this as well, at 500hz, but not at 1000hz.


Yes, especially when pistoling in csgo, I notice that there is a delay when doing fast corrections from one direction to another.. That really puts my muscle memory off sometimes.. I consider myself a fairly good aimer, Global Elite on csgo..


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> when i tried the fm today i'm fairly sure i can notice the smoothing. the tracking feels nice but it just feels kind of floaty. could be placebo due to knowing way too much about sensors


finalmouse is my main mouse and there is smoothing for sure. It's a good mouse but I was disappointed considering _some_ ppl were saying it was as good as an mlt04. I wasn't happy with my G502 compared to my WMO even though I performed good with it, but now going back to it from my finalmouse, it feels much better. Too bad I destroyed it and has no scrollwheel or side buttons anymore.

I'm still impatient for the firmware with MCU filtering off.. not sure whats taking so long. afaik it's the only big difference we know for finalmouse vs 3366 from Logitech.


----------



## wareya

Behold! The 80 m/s 3310 mousetester plot of EVIL!
https://imgrush.com/xUJM7dsJ1Yl5.png
(I made my KPM malfunction in a way that bundled up x deltas. The xcount graph doesn't have such a spike.)

Despite having the exact same sensor as the FM, my KPM absolutely refuses to track properly on my desk (glossy white paint, as opposed to my mousepad which is cloth), which makes me think that the FM has a broader range of calibration or something. What was it that they did differently, again?

>above this value, adjacent frames do not have any real overlap at all.

Methinks it might be accelerating/raising DPI above 5 point something meters/s. Or, maybe, the framerate can go higher than it's specified.


----------



## Jonagold

Some compromises have been made on the sensor performance and it saddens me that those critical flaws have remained unnoticed by the testing department.. When do they realize that people don't need extremes in the mouse, just basic solid performance with a simple shape.. 5 m/s is enough for like 99.5% for gamers and even that 0.5% will make it do..


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> finalmouse is my main mouse and there is smoothing for sure. It's a good mouse but I was disappointed considering _some_ ppl were saying it was as good as an mlt04. I wasn't happy with my G502 compared to my WMO even though I performed good with it, but now going back to it from my finalmouse, it feels much better. Too bad I destroyed it and has no scrollwheel or side buttons anymore.
> 
> I'm still impatient for the firmware with MCU filtering off.. not sure whats taking so long. afaik it's the only big difference we know for finalmouse vs 3366 from Logitech.


Hi does FM plan to remove the smoothing? Also are you sure it's not the 500hz? I know 500hz feels more 'smooth' than 1000hz. Just throwing that out there you probably already know. I'm interested in trying the FM. I had a rival before and razer deathadder and both of those had a lot of smoothing. Right now I have an fk1 and am looking at the FM/za11. Undecided, might just stay with the fk1. But if FM really does deliver they could be my main driver


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Hi does FM plan to remove the smoothing? Also are you sure it's not the 500hz? I know 500hz feels more 'smooth' than 1000hz. Just throwing that out there you probably already know. I'm interested in trying the FM. I had a rival before and razer deathadder and both of those had a lot of smoothing. Right now I have an fk1 and am looking at the FM/za11. Undecided, might just stay with the fk1. But if FM really does deliver they could be my main driver


They plan to yes, but its been a while now. 500hz shouldnt be the problem considering Ive always used 500hz on other mice like my IMO1.1 and G502 because of.bad.polling rate stability on my pc


----------



## MaximilianKohler

If your CPI value/measurement is off in mousetester then you'll get faulty m/s measurements.

For example, if you set the mouse to the 3200dpi setting and just input 3200dpi into mousetester instead of measuring the actual CPI number, which is probably more or less than 3200, you'll get different m/s values than if you were to measure and input precise numbers.


----------



## qsxcv

yup but i got the same for 400dpi... ill measure carefully tonight and see.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Hi does FM plan to remove the smoothing? Also are you sure it's not the 500hz? I know 500hz feels more 'smooth' than 1000hz. Just throwing that out there you probably already know. I'm interested in trying the FM. I had a rival before and razer deathadder and both of those had a lot of smoothing. Right now I have an fk1 and am looking at the FM/za11. Undecided, might just stay with the fk1. But if FM really does deliver they could be my main driver


they could take off the mcu smoothing but idk whether there's any 3310 srom with no sensor level smoothing.

for all we know 4ms of smoothing or however much there is and/or the mcu smoothing may be good things. in the few minutes i used the fm, i had no trouble hitting shots but the tracking didnt feel as connected to my hand as that with a wmo or g100s


----------



## ncck

Ok thanks for the info, I'll hold off on buying one until it's adjusted. I'm not saying that I have some magical eyes that will detect smoothing but I know for a fact when I plug in something like a steelseries rival or deathadder 2013 there is noticeable 'delay/smooth' when using it at dpis like 400/800.

Meanwhile with the fk1 it feels less so, I also remember my really old IR logitech (like the most basic optical back in the day) felt more raw than some gaming mice do now lol.. That disconnected delay feeling is the worst.. Also I'm surprised nobody has made a gaming mouse that only does like 400 or only does both 400 and 800 - even on 1080p 800 is too fast on desktop for me, need 400 on desktop


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Ok thanks for the info, I'll hold off on buying one until it's adjusted. I'm not saying that I have some magical eyes that will detect smoothing but I know for a fact when I plug in something like a steelseries rival or deathadder 2013 there is noticeable 'delay/smooth' when using it at dpis like 400/800.
> 
> Meanwhile with the fk1 it feels less so, I also remember my really old IR logitech (like the most basic optical back in the day) felt more raw than some gaming mice do now lol.. That disconnected delay feeling is the worst.. Also I'm surprised nobody has made a gaming mouse that only does like 400 or only does both 400 and 800 - even on 1080p 800 is too fast on desktop for me, need 400 on desktop


One thing that might feel like sensor smoothing is when you are used to click delay and then use a mouse that has none of it.. Your muscle memory causes you to press mouse button too early causing your crosshair being on the way of the target instead of on it..

Zowie mice and many older mouse has a huge button delay 16-25 ms, DA has like 6-7 ms of it and rival something similar 4-7 ms if I remember correctly.. Logitech mice has always under 3 ms delay..

With FinalMouse the situation is interesting because there is no button delay but there is some sensor delay, so basically you need to wait a bit after your movement before you click..


----------



## wareya

>DA has like 6-7 ms of it
My DA 3.5g has 20ms latency more than a low-latency-firmware KPM.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >DA has like 6-7 ms of it
> My DA 3.5g has 20ms latency more than a low-latency-firmware KPM.


I should have specified DA 2013 and DA Chrome are those with 6-7 ms button delay..


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I thought we agreed to call whatever qsxcv found in the FM "filtering", as it's a more accurate term and completely different from what people usually refer to as "smoothing".

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Ok thanks for the info, I'll hold off on buying one until it's adjusted. I'm not saying that I have some magical eyes that will detect smoothing but I know for a fact when I plug in something like a steelseries rival or deathadder 2013 there is noticeable 'delay/smooth' when using it at dpis like 400/800.
> 
> Meanwhile with the fk1 it feels less so, I also remember my really old IR logitech (like the most basic optical back in the day) felt more raw than some gaming mice do now lol.. That disconnected delay feeling is the worst.. Also I'm surprised nobody has made a gaming mouse that only does like 400 or only does both 400 and 800 - even on 1080p 800 is too fast on desktop for me, need 400 on desktop


Have you made sure the firmware on the DA2013 is up to date? Did you buy your FK1 more recently?


----------



## qsxcv

i'm still not entirely sure what exactly is done by the thing we usually call smoothing, but more and more i'm suspecting that it's similar to the finalmouse (and other mice's) mcu "filtering".

also: finalmouse dpi isn't inaccurate enough to make such a large difference. there should be no way that the sensor tracks even at 80% of the theoretical max of 6.19m/s, as there would be too much motion blur in the images to extract meaningful correlation. to add more confusion to this, the torq x5 with 3988 @ ~12500fps also has a max speed around 7m/s. maybe the 3310 actually operates at ~12000fps but pairs of counts are binned?


----------



## ncck

two questions

1) does anyone have an FM and actually like it at the moment, especially people who used an fk1 prior

2) If they do release a smooth free version, can we send in the current one for the newer revision?


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> 2) If they do release a smooth free version, can we send in the current one for the newer revision?


you would just have to update your firmware


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> two questions
> 
> 1) does anyone have an FM and actually like it at the moment, especially people who used an fk1 prior
> 
> 2) If they do release a smooth free version, can we send in the current one for the newer revision?


I like it. I've been a long time MX518 user and the FM2015 ODM shape is like a lighter version of it. The sensor position makes it a more precise mouse compared to something like an FK1.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

A mouse shell made entirely out of the material used for hyperglides. That's a ODM mouse I'd be be willing to purchase for sure.


----------



## Nachoooo

Wonder if it will ever be an option to choose the coating? like textured (grainy?) plastic for people with dry hands and rubberized for sweaty hands.

Been looking for a replacement mouse for my Logitech G5 V2 for nearly a year now, several times i got excited only to come to the conslusion the sensor is crap (imperator 4G), it has a sniper button (G402/502), soft-touch rubber coating which is terrible for me to grip (kone's), too many buttons, too small, ambidextrous or has a red light emitting optical sensor (low-sense fingertip user, hate the red light reflecting in my screen when i pick it up like with the G400s).

So i finally stumbled on the Finalmouse2015, and i really liked what i saw, didnt think i would ever see a mouse again that has that "lip" on the right side like my G5 or the Imperator which i absolutely love, 2 side buttons which is all i need and a great looking ergonomic shape, only... the coating is really what made me less excited, i still dont know why so many companies decide to only use rubber coating, when i got my hands on the Kone XTD it was terrible, felt like silk, got cramps in my hand from all the pressure i had to use to lift it, how on earth do they expect people to lift that mouse if you dont have sweaty hands? oh what i wouldnt do to get back the grainy plastic coating of my G5, even after 6 years of intensive use the grip is still great. So after trying and sending back tons of mice i generally avoid any rubber coating now.

Wouldnt it also be cheaper to produce than the rubber version? i would buy one instantly if it not were for the rubber coating, shame really, guess my search for a mouse continues


----------



## espgodson

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nachoooo*
> 
> Wonder if it will ever be an option to choose the coating? like textured (grainy?) plastic for people with dry hands and rubberized for sweaty hands.
> 
> Been looking for a replacement mouse for my Logitech G5 V2 for nearly a year now, several times i got excited only to come to the conslusion the sensor is crap (imperator 4G), it has a sniper button (G402/502), soft-touch rubber coating which is terrible for me to grip (kone's), too many buttons, too small, ambidextrous or has a red light emitting optical sensor (low-sense fingertip user, hate the red light reflecting in my screen when i pick it up like with the G400s).
> 
> So i finally stumbled on the Finalmouse2015, and i really liked what i saw, didnt think i would ever see a mouse again that has that "lip" on the right side like my G5 or the Imperator which i absolutely love, 2 side buttons which is all i need and a great looking ergonomic shape, only... the coating is really what made me less excited, i still dont know why so many companies decide to only use rubber coating, when i got my hands on the Kone XTD it was terrible, felt like silk, got cramps in my hand from all the pressure i had to use to lift it, how on earth do they expect people to lift that mouse if you dont have sweaty hands? oh what i wouldnt do to get back the grainy plastic coating of my G5, even after 6 years of intensive use the grip is still great. So after trying and sending back tons of mice i generally avoid any rubber coating now.
> 
> Wouldnt it also be cheaper to produce than the rubber version? i would buy one instantly if it not were for the rubber coating, shame really, guess my search for a mouse continues


FM isn't rubber it's sides are glossy and top part is a plastic


----------



## ALT F4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> two questions
> 
> 1) does anyone have an FM and actually like it at the moment, especially people who used an fk1 prior
> 
> 2) If they do release a smooth free version, can we send in the current one for the newer revision?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> you would just have to update your firmware


Any official eta? Was planning on picking up a finalmouse to try against this g303, now I have to read about the smoothing issue.


----------



## wareya

The smoothing issue is a defect.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ALT F4*
> 
> Any official eta? Was planning on picking up a finalmouse to try against this g303, now I have to read about the smoothing issue.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1460#post_23996597
"Yes if you read my post from earlier I mentioned how I was able to turn it off in the firmware"

http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1530#post_24001224
"Also since there seems to be a couple individuals here who prefer to have more choice on their sensor settings, I'm asking for permission to see if I can release several firmware flashers here. Obviously these flashers will come with a strict disclaimer that says it is not how the finalmouse is meant to be utilized, and is not the desired tracking feeling we found our In house pros to enjoy... That being said I will try and release the following firmware:

500 hz with MCU noise control register off
1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well"

to answer your question; no clue and no official eta


----------



## ALT F4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1460#post_23996597
> "Yes if you read my post from earlier I mentioned how I was able to turn it off in the firmware"
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1530#post_24001224
> "Also since there seems to be a couple individuals here who prefer to have more choice on their sensor settings, I'm asking for permission to see if I can release several firmware flashers here. Obviously these flashers will come with a strict disclaimer that says it is not how the finalmouse is meant to be utilized, and is not the desired tracking feeling we found our In house pros to enjoy... That being said I will try and release the following firmware:
> 
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well"
> 
> to answer your question; no clue and no official eta


Very nice! Look forward to trying this mouse soon.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> The smoothing issue is a defect.


then pretty much all 3310 mouse are defective


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> then pretty much all 3310 mouse are defective


I'm obviously referring to the massive 7ms smoothing that Jonagold has


----------



## qsxcv

and i suspect that every 3310 mouse is similar


----------



## wareya

Every 3310 has 7ms smoothing or every 3310 can get the same defects? Because I would agree to the last one.


----------



## qsxcv

its not exactly 7ms. first count timing differences, which for Jonagold was 7ms for one sample (or more? dont remember), are not very consistent in my experience. that's why i suggested measuring by seeing which mouse reaches a total of 10 counts first and seeing how many counts the other mouse reports. and for this test, finalmouse and evga x5 consistently lose to g502, whereas the other mice (wmo, ie3.0, g303, g100s) i have are matched closely. not sure whether it's because of sensor smoothing or something inherent to the 9800 architecture (i.e. what 3310 and 3988 are based off).


----------



## Nachoooo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> FM isn't rubber it's sides are glossy and top part is a plastic


oh, searched the thread before about the grip and saw it mentioned that it was a smooth rubber on the sides

well now, that changes everything







so it has good grip then for dry hands?


----------



## wareya

@qsxcv

I've suspected that the 3310's native 50 DPI steps are the result of additional quantization after doing correlation (much like windows mouse sensitivity), which can result in a number of counts of "lag" at low speeds, but I can't see it being more than two counts. That's one of the reasons count testing is odd. Hell, depending on whether the MLT04's smooth diagonals are dragging or native diagonal correlation, it might have a full count of lag over other mice despite how wonderful it is.

So, 3310 is like a black box with odd properties, but you still have to use the right tools for the job.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1554228/visualizing-smoothing-in-mousetester is a much better way to detect smoothing _per se_. Other problems can affect the count counting test too much.

You can put two mice together and do an impact test like that. The only problem is that you have to try and try again in case one of them malfunctions or comes off the mousepad.

Btw, here's a mouse that I _know_ has smoothing, my crappy Roccat Pyra, whose rubberized sides melted off and whose click latency is 20ms faster than my DA 3.5g for some reason. (but don't buy one) https://imgrush.com/cRnez2PkKayv

DA 3.5g https://imgrush.com/0K-7fBySgcER

Going to post these images in that thread as well for posterity.


----------



## ncck

ok I ordered a fm 2015 summer from amazon... hope I like it more than my fk1!

Also I read a 2016 version may come out, do we get to send it for that or is it like zowie and they would force to rebuy.. I'll also give feedback when I get to use it about the shape and how I feel the sensor is. It was pricey but I like all the communication compared to other companies and they don't hide when people talk about really deep stuff that I don't understand but it sounds cool

I saw in a ZOWIE FK1 thread that people were redoing their cables on their mice to a super light one that they said felt like it didn't exist when moving the mouse..... could someone link that to this FM guy and see if it's something they could do? It looked really cool, my fk1 mouse cable is so annoying even with the wire holder!


----------



## bank1997

Ok, I have to say that I have tested the FINALMOUSE 2015 SE in Counter Strike GO

What I feel is that in the game when I got shot the crosshair of the finalmouse is harder to move compare to zowie. Any of you experience the same as me? or any solution would be great

Thx


----------



## wareya

wat
When you get hit, the crosshair becomes harder to move with the FM?


----------



## bank1997

I mean that while you in the game cs go when you get hit by the enemy it is harder to control the crosshair than zowie, this is what i experience.


----------



## wareya

That can be caused by an endless number of random factors. Are you regularly switching between mice?


----------



## qsxcv

zowie confirmed for built in anti-aimpunch hack


----------



## bank1997

Please clarify what do you mean, yes i sometimes i switch mouse 3 -4 mouse but finalmouse is different because i compare all of them


----------



## bank1997

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> zowie confirmed for built in anti-aimpunch hack


Yes i have to say that it is aimpunch keyword that i mean. On zowie it is easier to control aimpunch compare to finalmouse


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bank1997*
> 
> Yes i have to say that it is aimpunch keyword that i mean. On zowie it is easier to control aimpunch compare to finalmouse


Could it be due to the height/steeper curve of the ZA. I noticed that it's way easier to control any kind of recoil/spread with mice that are higher, or that have steeper hills. Somehow gives better support for the hand, so you have more control?


----------



## bank1997

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Could it be due to the height/steeper curve of the ZA. I noticed that it's way easier to control any kind of recoil/spread with mice that are higher, or that have steeper hills. Somehow gives better support for the hand, so you have more control?


I dont think so i personally feel that the height of FM and zowie ec2a is about the same or even FM is a bit higher. I really want Jude to explain this because i really like the move of FM but I hate it when comes to aimpunch


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bank1997*
> 
> I dont think so i personally feel that the height of FM and zowie ec2a is about the same or even FM is a bit higher. I really want Jude to explain this because i really like the move of FM but I hate it when comes to aimpunch


lol what do you want Jude to say? the only reason aimpunch would be harder to control is if the shape isn't the best for you or you're not used to it yet..


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I heard buying kevlar helps alot with aimpunch.


----------



## PU skunk

I remember a tweak in E.T. that reduced spread when mouse polling rate was 1/2 frame rate.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I heard buying kevlar helps alot with aimpunch.


Lmaooooo


----------



## Fragil1ty

I bought my Finalmouse a few months ago and at first I loved it, there were no issues and recently I've been noticing that mouse has been deteriorating, not in terms of the actual sensor, but more in terms of the left mouse button. It feels as if there is some kind of grit underneath the LMB1 and it's a little annoying, especially when I'm trying to play competitive games, it's just hindering me. If this continues I'm going to have to go back to my Zowie FK1, something that I don't really want to do, but heh, apart from sending the mouse back and getting a replacement? there's nothing I can do.

Anyone else have issues like this?


----------



## wareya

Can you describe the feeling more? Is it worn-out and soft, or is it scratchy?


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Can you describe the feeling more? Is it worn-out and soft, or is it scratchy?


The only way I can describe is, if I click the right mouse button it feels fresh, it feels responsive, the clicks feel as a click should but if I click the left mouse-button, it feels like it's a bit more worn out, it feels like it's completely different.

It's hard to really put into words.


----------



## wareya

I've had an omron LMB wear out before (my good old trusty DA), but it took years rather than months. Contact support?


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I bought my Finalmouse a few months ago and at first I loved it, there were no issues and recently I've been noticing that mouse has been deteriorating, not in terms of the actual sensor, but more in terms of the left mouse button. It feels as if there is some kind of grit underneath the LMB1 and it's a little annoying, especially when I'm trying to play competitive games, it's just hindering me. If this continues I'm going to have to go back to my Zowie FK1, something that I don't really want to do, but heh, apart from sending the mouse back and getting a replacement? there's nothing I can do.
> 
> Anyone else have issues like this?


They didn't spec the internal button "plungers" to the proper size for omron switches on the finalmouse. There are plastic shims/stickers that make them longer, most likely one came lose or damaged somehow make the click feel strange.


----------



## Fragil1ty

I'm currently having issues with my Finalmouse, I've got the rev. 2 edition, the latest one and it's just annoying. The left mouse click has started to become a bit less responsive and when I'm clicking it, it kind of feels as if there is something underneath the click that is kind of preventing me to click it as fast as I would like, it kind of feels as if there is a bit of grit underneath the mouse button and it's really annoying, especially when I'm trying to play competitive games.

Has anyone else experienced this or is this just me?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> They didn't spec the internal button "plungers" to the proper size for omron switches on the finalmouse. There are plastic shims/stickers that make them longer, most likely one came lose or damaged somehow make the click feel strange.


Is this a fixable issue, like can I undo the mouse and go inside or is it best to just get into contact with FM and try and get some sort of replacement?


----------



## wareya

Try to get a replacement first. Opening the mouse might void your warranty. Only when the mouse is both unusable and cannot be RMAd should you modify it.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I'm currently having issues with my Finalmouse, I've got the rev. 2 edition, the latest one and it's just annoying. The left mouse click has started to become a bit less responsive and when I'm clicking it, it kind of feels as if there is something underneath the click that is kind of preventing me to click it as fast as I would like, it kind of feels as if there is a bit of grit underneath the mouse button and it's really annoying, especially when I'm trying to play competitive games.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this or is this just me?
> Is this a fixable issue, like can I undo the mouse and go inside or is it best to just get into contact with FM and try and get some sort of replacement?


Yeah its easily fixable, there are screws under the rear mouse feet to open the case. Inside if the shim/sticker has just come loose put it back in place, otherwise you'll need something to build the length of the button plunger(s) a few tenths of a millimeter.


----------



## Fragil1ty

I bought the Finalmouse in
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I've had an omron LMB wear out before (my good old trusty DA), but it took years rather than months. Contact support?


Yeah I will do, I'll give them a message later on, maybe it's just me, but it does feel kind of wore down and what not, but I play a lot of shooters, like daily 8+ hours of gaming daily, so I'm not sure, maybe it's j
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> Yeah its easily fixable, there are screws under the rear mouse feet to open the case. Inside if the shim/sticker has just come loose put it back in place, otherwise you'll need something to build the length of the button plunger(s) a few tenths of a millimeter.


This fixed it, thank you very much! the little sticker was loose and was off to the side on the left click, while perfectly on the right click, crazy how that messes everything up. Bit stupid in terms of design though. :s


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I bought the Finalmouse in
> Yeah I will do, I'll give them a message later on, maybe it's just me, but it does feel kind of wore down and what not, but I play a lot of shooters, like daily 8+ hours of gaming daily, so I'm not sure, maybe it's j
> This fixed it, thank you very much! the little sticker was loose and was off to the side on the left click, while perfectly on the right click, crazy how that messes everything up. Bit stupid in terms of design though. :s


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> Yeah its easily fixable, there are screws under the rear mouse feet to open the case. Inside if the shim/sticker has just come loose put it back in place, otherwise you'll need something to build the length of the button plunger(s) a few tenths of a millimeter.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I bought the Finalmouse in
> Yeah I will do, I'll give them a message later on, maybe it's just me, but it does feel kind of wore down and what not, but I play a lot of shooters, like daily 8+ hours of gaming daily, so I'm not sure, maybe it's j
> This fixed it, thank you very much! the little sticker was loose and was off to the side on the left click, while perfectly on the right click, crazy how that messes everything up. Bit stupid in terms of design though. :s


Yeah there isn't really any excuse for using these sticker shims in a $67USD production mouse.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

The clicker tooling has actually already been adjusted and went into effect for a recent production batch. I'm not sure exactly when this batch will hit retailers. But the new clicks feel very crisp. Also we are now actually checking batches of switches from OMRON ourselves before accepting them from their factory.

Anyways sorry for being MIA lately, been very busy as our whole team is working on a lot of exciting things. We are working on getting the ambi model ready for release before the holidays this year.

The new ambi model sports an amazing new encoder for the mousewheel that we imported from Japan, and obviously the mouse it's tooled and designed from the ground up completely by us. We are very happy with the final design, as you can see from the pictures it takes a lot of the great things from past legacy mice and brings it together in a fantastic way.

The weight is actually going to be the same if not slightly lighter than the current FM. We are using larger and better Teflon skates on the bottom, one at the top and one at the bottom.

There will be no more glossy sides. We are still deciding on whether we want rubberized sides or grainy plastic sides.

Also in other news we have acquired an amazing new applications engineer who has a wealth of experience in sensor and imaging technologies including DSP algorithms and development. We plan on having much more control over the algorithm fields and system architecture so we can really narrow down the tracking feel we (and our pros) are looking for. Additionally we are developing a proprietary sensor technology we are currently calling "RC Drive". More on this as we get closer to our patent filing.

Anyways I'd love to get your guys' opinions on the side material for the finalmouse ambi. Grainy plastic or rubberized coating?


----------



## qsxcv

will you guys be using the 20m or 10m d2fc's? cuz in my finalmouse it was just the default version (5m i think).
also please drop the cheapo switches for the side buttons









for sides i'd prefer grainy plastic... as the places where the fingers contact the sides are the most likely places for a rubber coating to wear off.
Quote:


> Also in other news we have acquired an amazing new applications engineer


----------



## wareya

That's great news!


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Anyways I'd love to get your guys' opinions on the side material for the finalmouse ambi. Grainy plastic or rubberized coating?


It might not look pretty but I would choose grainy plastic. Rubber coatings always wear off over time.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> It might not look pretty but I would choose grainy plastic. Rubber coatings always wear off over time.


This is basically the exact struggle we are dealing with internally. But at the end of the day Im positive if enough people come out in support of grainy plastic our marketing/creative guys will be okay with the sacrifice in aesthetic.... because i do admit the full rubber on the ambi looks VERY nice.


----------



## wareya

Real, thick rubber is fine if it's attached properly, but rubberized surfaces always wear through, and cheap attachments of rubber can be downright terrible. My Roccat Pyra is basically unusable because the glue holding the rubber sides to the case literally melts in 80 degree Fahrenheit weather and seeps through the mouse. I ripped the shell apart to cut off the places where the sides attached (they peeled off, but the glue stayed behind), and now I can at least use it from time to time, but of course it's now cut apart and has sharp parts.

Please don't make any ridiculous cheap mistakes like this, even if you do go with rubber.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The clicker tooling has actually already been adjusted and went into effect for a recent production batch. I'm not sure exactly when this batch will hit retailers. But the new clicks feel very crisp. Also we are now actually checking batches of switches from OMRON ourselves before accepting them from their factory.
> 
> Anyways sorry for being MIA lately, been very busy as our whole team is working on a lot of exciting things. We are working on getting the ambi model ready for release before the holidays this year.
> 
> The new ambi model sports an amazing new encoder for the mousewheel that we imported from Japan, and obviously the mouse it's tooled and designed from the ground up completely by us. We are very happy with the final design, as you can see from the pictures it takes a lot of the great things from past legacy mice and brings it together in a fantastic way.
> 
> The weight is actually going to be the same if not slightly lighter than the current FM. We are using larger and better Teflon skates on the bottom, one at the top and one at the bottom.
> 
> There will be no more glossy sides. We are still deciding on whether we want rubberized sides or grainy plastic sides.
> 
> Also in other news we have acquired an amazing new applications engineer who has a wealth of experience in sensor and imaging technologies including DSP algorithms and development. We plan on having much more control over the algorithm fields and system architecture so we can really narrow down the tracking feel we (and our pros) are looking for. Additionally we are developing a proprietary sensor technology we are currently calling "RC Drive". More on this as we get closer to our patent filing.
> 
> Anyways I'd love to get your guys' opinions on the side material for the finalmouse ambi. Grainy plastic or rubberized coating?


Well this is good news, little crappy for the guys that already have the mouse, as we'll have to purchase another for these upgrades, but personally I'd like the grainy plastic, I'm not a big fan of full on rubber on the side of my mouse, the side of my FK1 feels really nice and that's a plastic material.

Nice updates though.


----------



## eysen

For me, I prefer grainy plastic.


----------



## Ino.

Also in for grainy plastic. I dislike most rubber coatings, gloss gets sweaty easily, grainy plastic always works.


----------



## turnschuh

Hey @FinalmouseJude, is it maybe possible to get a firmware with more usable dpi steps for the FM2016? Like ditch the 3200dpi step and do 400/800/*1200*/1600 instead? Maybe, to please more people, steps from 400-1600 in 200 dpi increments..

I vote for the grainy plastic sides.

Not sure if it was mentioned before but how will the sensor position look like?


----------



## Fragil1ty

Can you also fix the wobbly side-buttons? Would be a big improvement, thank you.


----------



## Skyval

I don't even like how rubber looks anymore. Grainy plastic all the way.


----------



## Axaion

Only decent rubber coating i even remember is the intellimouse explorer 3.0 one.. and the Logitech mx510/518 (not 2nd edition)

So.. grainy, non sandpaper plastic is my vote as well

On the top.. sod that rubber coating on the top of ANY mouse, the intellimices tops are the gold standard to go for on the top imo.

But not quite the same grainyness on both sides and top, a little more grainy on the sides imo.


----------



## Fragil1ty

I made a quick strawpoll for people to vote on, regarding the plastic vs rubber debate, here it is: http://strawpoll.me/5104062

vote away! (just for the ease of it).


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Can you also fix the wobbly side-buttons? Would be a big improvement, thank you.


The side buttons in the current mouse don't use an omron switch, but they are only wobbly because again here the button plungers aren't sized correctly. On my finalmouse I also shimmed these out and that took out all the wobble.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> The side buttons in the current mouse don't use an omron switch, but they are only wobbly because again here the button plungers aren't sized correctly. On my finalmouse I also shimmed these out and that took out all the wobble.


Oh, so if they simply just fixed the sizes, it would all fit a lot better? Not sure why they didn't do this in the first place, it would make more sense.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Also in other news we have acquired an amazing new applications engineer who has a wealth of experience in sensor and imaging technologies including DSP algorithms and development. We plan on having much more control over the algorithm fields and system architecture so we can really narrow down the tracking feel we (and our pros) are looking for. Additionally we are developing a proprietary sensor technology we are currently calling "RC Drive". More on this as we get closer to our patent filing.


That's really nice. Any news regarding the alternative firmwares?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

For those asking about sensor position... Please check the below image: (we tried to keep it roughly in the middle to match the kinetic motion directed by the thumb/middle of the grip, but it is every so slightly closer to the top than the absolute middle. So overall very close to the classic FM shape. Maybe just a tad higher relative to the grip considering the mouse is longer.

And thank you for the input regarding the grainy plastic sides. Seems like an overwhelming majority prefer it, so I will be sure to pass that message along.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> Only decent rubber coating i even remember is..... and the Logitech mx510/518 (not 2nd edition)


The rubber sides on my original MX518 and G400 are both mangled and completely missing where my fingers touch. To be fair to Logitech the rubber didn't go to complete crap until the mouse was nearly out of it's warranty period.


----------



## Nilizum

What is the length of the ambi version? Sorry if it's already been posted.


----------



## doors1991

My favourite rubber sides - logitech g502.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> My favourite rubber sides - logitech g502.


AFAIK those are actual rubber grips and not a coating. Finalmouse might not have that option.


----------



## Fragil1ty

One of the current issues that I'm struggling with is the fact that because I had to go into my mouse and fix the stickers to ensure that my mouse worked properly again, the Teflon feet on the bottom are now ruined essentially.

I contacted Amazon and told them that I was having issues and I can refund the mouse and get a brand new one, but I live in England and I'll be sending it to the states as when I bought mine, the EU shipping option wasn't available.

So, should I send it back, get the money, save it for the new version or try and sort out some fixes for myself in terms of a permanent fix for the sticker/mouse click issues and the missing 2 Teflon feet.

Advice would be appreciated.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Anyways I'd love to get your guys' opinions on the side material for the finalmouse ambi. Grainy plastic or rubberized coating?


*Grainy Plastic* for sure.

loving my final mouse 2015!


----------



## IlIkeJuice

The WMO / IE1.1a are grainy plastic, that stuff is fine really. For all I care, the entire mice could just be that (but not gloss like the old MX510, that was a sweat magnet).

Not sure marketing would go for it. I mean, a gaming mouse with no fancy rubbery coating, unheard of!

Oh and please Please PLEASE get rid of the backlight, it's annoying as hell and pointless. The scrollwheel light is OK though, if you absolutely must put ricer lights on that thing.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> For those asking about sensor position... Please check the below image: (we tried to keep it roughly in the middle to match the kinetic motion directed by the thumb/middle of the grip, but it is every so slightly closer to the top than the absolute middle. So overall very close to the classic FM shape. Maybe just a tad higher relative to the grip considering the mouse is longer.
> 
> And thank you for the input regarding the grainy plastic sides. Seems like an overwhelming majority prefer it, so I will be sure to pass that message along.


Well, dunno, whee's the WMO at









Afaik, it's that. Slightly towards the top. The current FM2015 seems fine, but it' a bit more stout. Anyway, Deathadder, WMO, they seem to be in roughly the same ballpark.


----------



## daav1d

Glossy would be awsome, grainy plastic would be ok. Rubberized would be terrible.


----------



## exitone

What's with the rubberized hate? Some are decent and don't wear out. Nevertheless, I would be happy with grainy plastic as loong as it's not cheap stuff.


----------



## ncck

So I'm hoping my FM arrival tomorrow is in good condition.. but if something breaks or goes wrong with the clicks I can send it in and get the updated one? That is if something goes wrong.

Also for your ambi version I dislike that you want to go for two thick skates on the top and bottom, I've found in every mouse I've used that 2 skates on the top and 2 skates on the bottom (in the corners) is and will always be the best for people looking to control their shots, something about big skates just removes some stoppage power for me personally. But we'll see what others think.. hopefully I just enjoy this original one and won't have to worry about trying the next model. You guys are very interactive plus you work quickly on user feedback or adjusting issues. It seems and I'll enjoy doing business with your mouse company!


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> Oh and please Please PLEASE get rid of the backlight, it's annoying as hell and pointless


The bulb can be seen through the plastic - looks cheap is all.
Scrollwheel un-useably stiff. Fyi again to Jude.

Grainy plastic yes :
Lasts
Always works
Light
Simple
Cheaper (maybe)


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> One of the current issues that I'm struggling with is the fact that because I had to go into my mouse and fix the stickers to ensure that my mouse worked properly again, the Teflon feet on the bottom are now ruined essentially.
> 
> I contacted Amazon and told them that I was having issues and I can refund the mouse and get a brand new one, but I live in England and I'll be sending it to the states as when I bought mine, the EU shipping option wasn't available.
> 
> So, should I send it back, get the money, save it for the new version or try and sort out some fixes for myself in terms of a permanent fix for the sticker/mouse click issues and the missing 2 Teflon feet.
> 
> Advice would be appreciated.


I'll help you out again, if you like the mouse for the most part this is another easy fix. Remove existing feet, attach new microsoft style feet on the bottom, I ended up with this configuration, it works great for me:


----------



## Axaion

for some reason it really, really bothers me the way you put on those feet

why wouldent you just put them in the grooves made for feet so theyre a bit more stable, and less likely to pick up stuff

also so only one front, it hurts to see that, it reminds me of this kid i used to know in the 90s on a tricycle that crashed on it..


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> for some reason it really, really bothers me the way you put on those feet
> 
> why wouldent you just put them in the grooves made for feet so theyre a bit more stable, and less likely to pick up stuff
> 
> also so only one front, it hurts to see that, it reminds me of this kid i used to know in the 90s on a tricycle that crashed on it..


It bothers me as well, not because the configuration of them is bad, but simply because I had to do it.

A few reasons why:

Wanted to be able to access the rear screws w/o taking off the feet.
The recess under the LMB on my mouse is way to shallow, if I use the front recesses for feet the mouse is unstable.
Actually collects less dust/debris than using the recesses, most dust/debris gets trapped between the foot and the recess outline, a mouse would be better designed with a completely flat, glossy bottom, with the ability to affix any preference of mouse feet anywhere.

As far as stability, There aren't any issues, it doesn't rock and no part of the mouse other than the feet contact the mouse pad. Can't really compare it to a trike because the front mouse foot doesn't steer.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I'll help you out again, if you like the mouse for the most part this is another easy fix. Remove existing feet, attach new microsoft style feet on the bottom, I ended up with this configuration, it works great for me:


Yeah man, I love the mouse, I really do. My old mouse is a Zowie FK1 and while I love that mouse also, I now very much prefer the FM. The only spare teflon feet that I have are that of the Zowie teflon feet, would this still work do you think? I don't have any MS style feet unfortunately.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Anyways I'd love to get your guys' opinions on the side material for the finalmouse ambi. Grainy plastic or rubberized coating?


Solid rubber grips would be nice, if not possible grainy plastic.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Yeah man, I love the mouse, I really do. My old mouse is a Zowie FK1 and while I love that mouse also, I now very much prefer the FM. The only spare teflon feet that I have are that of the Zowie teflon feet, would this still work do you think? I don't have any MS style feet unfortunately.


Sure they would work, also being a good size you could cut them with a sharp scissors to fit in the existing recesses if desired.


----------



## TriviumKM

What's the length of the ambi Jude?

Also, am i the only one who likes the sensor position to be slightly towards the back of the mouse / wrist (eg. G100s / Spawn) than towards the front of the mouse? I feel like it helps with horizontal movement control.

Edit: I vote for grainy plastic as well.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> Sure they would work, also being a good size you could cut them with a sharp scissors to fit in the existing recesses if desired.


Is there anything that can be done about the stickers on the mouse clicks? because one of them has lost nearly all of it's stickyness and it feels like it's falling off or is wonky or something constantly, so I'm having to go back inside and fix it over and over and over again.


----------



## wareya

Jude, if you guys have to move the sensor forwards or backwards at all, please move it forwards! Moving the sensor backwards makes wrist movements on a figertip grip have a lower practical DPI than they should. The FM 2015 just happened to have the perfect shape for my hand because it let me pull my thumb way back on the left side, so the line between my thumb and my ring finger happened to go right through the sensor. It was pure luck. If the thumb grip is any different, I'd need the sensor further forwards too. It would be unfortunate to have a random downgrade in sensor positioning because of the grip.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Is there anything that can be done about the stickers on the mouse clicks? because one of them has lost nearly all of it's stickyness and it feels like it's falling off or is wonky or something constantly, so I'm having to go back inside and fix it over and over and over again.


My plan when that happens is to take off the stickers and put a tiny amount of plastic epoxy on each plunger to build it up, let it dry, and put it back together. Should be a nice permanent solution. Keep in mind we are talking about tenths of a millimeter here, so a tiny drop is all that would be necessary but you can always sand it back down if you get too much.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> My plan when that happens is to take off the stickers and put a tiny amount of plastic epoxy on each plunger to build it up, let it dry, and put it back together. Should be a nice permanent solution. Keep in mind we are talking about tenths of a millimeter here, so a tiny drop is all that would be necessary but you can always sand it back down if you get too much.


Oh true true, I think I have some in the house somewhere. Thanks dude! You've been a life saver.


----------



## Buttnose

Please make replacement feet available for this mouse, or work with third parties like corepad/puretrak to help them produce something. The feet on mine are already noticeably worn down after about 2months of use. At the moment it constitutes a pretty good reason to purchase one of the other popular mice over the FM.

EDIT: Also a brightness or on/off switch for the FM's LED being thrown in with the 1000hz/smoothing firmware update would be great. Its obnoxiously bright atm and I have to throw a t-shirt or something on it before bed.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> Please make replacement feet available for this mouse, or work with third parties like corepad/puretrak to help them produce something. The feet on mine are already noticeably worn down after about 2months of use. At the moment it constitutes a pretty good reason to purchase one of the other popular mice over the FM.


Yeah I think this would be a good idea also, the FK1 comes with replaceable feet and that is rather nice, it kind of sucks that you don't get them included nor can you buy them separately anywhere else.


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> Well, dunno, whee's the WMO at
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Afaik, it's that. Slightly towards the top. The current FM2015 seems fine, but it' a bit more stout. Anyway, Deathadder, WMO, they seem to be in roughly the same ballpark.


Deathadder is nowhere as high as WMO.


----------



## wareya

Depends which DA and on the firmware version. DA 3.5g needs a very specific firmware version to be good, for example.


----------



## Nilizum

What is dimension of ambi FM?


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Imo the mouse feet on that FM 2016 mockup are a downgrade from the current setup. Those two large feet at the top and bottom will give slightly differing horizontal and vertical glides. It would be ideal to leave them in the same general position (at the 4 corners), but instead make them all the same oval shape and all at 45°. Like slightly larger Intellimouse feet. Also use higher quality teflon, preferably like the F4-Silver treated Competition teflon feet from Hotline Games.

*EDIT:* Picture of ideal mouse feet shape/positioning (applies to any mouse pretty much)


----------



## ncck

@ vols

I think the feet he showed are for the FM AMBI only. The FM 2016 should still have 2x2 feet.

If not then they need to make sure it does, I really think two giant feet are way worse for controlling the mouse.... I'm also upset that a revision just came out since mine is coming in the mail today... hopefully it's smooth sailing regardless!


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

Ah I see.

Yeah the two things I wish I could change about my Naos is that it had mouse feet like my picture and was lighter. It has the two giant feet like the FM Ambi mockup and also side feet.


----------



## ncck

Ok So I received the mouse and used it a little today, I won't give any feedback until I've used it for 1-2 weeks of heavy usage to give it an honest review and some real feedback

But from plug in I can tell you right away that the rear backlight near the FM logo needs to go. I'd prefer just a solid logo, the light is insanely bright and I'm a person who doesn't really care for cosmetics.

edit: I also very much dislike the pointy side buttons, would prefer normal flat ones

edit2: Hate the 'ridge' on the right hand side, makes me lose the grip I had with my index finger


----------



## qsxcv

use this


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> use this


I didn't see how to open the mouse underneath, then saw pictures and saw screws under the mouse feet - no chance in hell I'm taking off the feet and ruining them lol.... guess I'll find some black electrical tape or something to cover it for the time being....... is that 2016 revision going to rid the light??? haha.... ok back to testing this bad boy


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

How does the light bother you if your hand covers it when you hold it?!?


----------



## qsxcv

there are screws under the two bottom feet. press on them with your fingers and feel where the holes are. use a small screwdriver to pierce the feet and unscrew it. make sure to press a bit while unscrewing, so that the feet don't get pulled up
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> How does the light bother you if your hand covers it when you hold it?!?


i think he types with both hands


----------



## wareya

it doesn't turn off when you put the computer to sleep


----------



## qsxcv

because iirc it's hardwired to the usb power, whereas for most other mice the led's are controlled by the mcu via a mosfet


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I didn't see how to open the mouse underneath, then saw pictures and saw screws under the mouse feet - no chance in hell I'm taking off the feet and ruining them lol.... guess I'll find some black electrical tape or something to cover it for the time being....... is that 2016 revision going to rid the light??? haha.... ok back to testing this bad boy


You can buy sheet(s) of high quality mouse feet material off ebay for pretty cheap. All it takes is a sharp scissors to get new feet.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> You can buy sheet(s) of high quality mouse feet material off ebay for pretty cheap. All it takes is a sharp scissors to get new feet.


Didnt know they sell sheets. Thx


----------



## Fragil1ty

So I was just wondering if I would be able to get some input, I'm sending my mouse back as I can get a full refund for it due to the issues that I've been having. I want to go ahead and buy the mouse again because I do in-fact love the mouse, but here are my issues.

* I don't want to buy the mouse again for the same thing to happen 2 months down the line
* I want to get the new and updated version, the one where the stems of the mouse actually reach the omron switches

(If you are unaware what happened to myself, the stickers on the inside of my mouse fell off, lost stickyness and I had to remove my feet to gain access, thus doing this the feet became unusable over time and the stickers kept falling off, thus causing problems).

Should I wait for the new mouse to be released and if so, does anyone know when it would be released?


----------



## lansnygg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> it doesn't turn off when you put the computer to sleep


Turn ON power saving for state S5 (in BIOS) and it will solve your problem. Turn it on for S4 if you usually put your computer in hibernate state.

EDIT: Read it again and you said "sleep". Dunno about that, sorry.


----------



## ncck

@FinalmouseJude

Well I thought I'd need two weeks to review it, but I played more than expected the past two days and basically thought out everything I like and dislike

Things I Like

Sensor
Sensor Position
2x2 Mouse feet - Love this, keeps mouse straight
Braided Cable - Love this
Left side of mouse (where thumb rests, I really like that, gives me a lot of control and power)
Low click delay (was amazed how different it was compared to FK1)
MwheelClick feels good
Surprisingly 500hz doesn't feel bad on this mouse, it felt delayed on other mice I tried.
What I don't like

Rear LED Light, would prefer just a solid logo
Mouse clicks are too soft, would prefer more resistance (harder click)
DPI Button, when you press it, it feels kind of 'broken' as if you're not sure if you pressed it.. then you just move it around to see if it changed
Entire right side of mouse, especially ridge (I lose my power here, my thumb has more control than my index/pinky because of this side)
Side Button shape (M4/M5) It's too pointy

What I'd like changed

Mouse wheel to have just a tiny bit more 'feedback' when scrolling
Coating to change on both right and left sides of mouse, constantly losing grip on my part
Remove ridge on right side of mouse, would prefer it to be more flat or curved inward like the right side (symmetrical?) - This would improve control greatly
Flat side buttons
More resistance on clicks, they feel 'mushy'
DPI button to be different, anything that feels more like a proper 'click' not sure how to explain it only button that feels broken
Wouldn't mind if the front of the mouse curved downward more (aka longer - but that could just be a result of the clicks feeling too soft)
Did I experience any technical problems?

Sensor 'lost tracking' when swiping and lifting, could be tons of things like LOD/mousepad. Wouldn't call it a malfunction cause the sensor didn't shut off and it wasn't caused by a fast swipe.
Accidentally clicked a few times, for me this is because either the mouse isn't more 'downward' at the front or because the mouse clicks have too little resistance. I love the low delay from click to in-game action, it seriously made a difference for rail shots and etc. But even with more resistance it wouldn't only feel better to me but I'd still be able to spam click it and what not. So it's one of the two. I'm not talking about 'debounce' either, think of it like black cherry mechanical keys vs a softer one. I prefer the 'resistance' of a black cherry key.

Hope you enjoy the feedback, it's not my 'final mouse' yet but I'll def keep using it as a main driver for now. Hope to see some changes to this model, my main concern is really just the right side of the mouse being so different from the left side and the coating on the right and left just isn't working out for a strong grip for me). I lose majority of my grip/power on the right side of the mouse. It affects both my tracking and lifting in multiple scenarios. This is what is the most crucial problem on the mouse for me.

The mouse feels pretty powerful performance wise. For a first take you definitely impressed me more than most major mice manufacturers.

-ncck


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Does the FM track well on hybrid surfaces (rubber coated cloth pads)?


----------



## wareya

> Sensor
yes
> Sensor position
yes
>Mouse feet
yes
> Cable
yes
> Left side of mouse
yes
> Rear LED
agree
> Side button shape
yes
> Right side of mouse
nonoononononooononononno disagree completely that ridge literally makes my grip possible without destroying my ring finger


----------



## qsxcv

@finalmousejude, idk how much control you guys have on this, but while the current fm's cable may be decent for most people, the ones on other mice (my ebay deathadder cable, evga torq x5) are quite a bit more flexible.


----------



## wareya

My DA 3.5g cable is full of kinks because it's so flexible. I actually take advantage of how stiff the "current" braided cables are to make them spring better (since they come folded over, they unroll into a nice triangular spring) but that can only be done with slack and a bungee or a weight.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

The cable is something I would be very hesitant in changing. We currently use our cable suppliers most reliable and highest stress resilient cable. If you desleeve it you will find the following layers: thread->copper->rubber->aluminum->thick rubber->braid

So yes, it isn't flexibile in the traditional sense, but it is very malleable, and these stiffer, shape holding properties actually are quite nice since you don't have to worry about tangles, cable getting in the way etc...

But the most important thing obviously is that this cable is not going to fail as easily. Cable/wire issues are one of the most common things that eventually cause a mouse to run its course, and our current cable is one of the reasons we feel confident in our 3 year warranty.

So this is one of those areas where there has to be some sort of compromise.


----------



## VolsAndJezuz

The FM braided cable is stiffer than the braided cables on my other mice, but I like it because of the reasons in the second paragraph. The less stiff braided cables tend to pull the slack and change the shape when I do really fast swipes, which leads to them getting bunched up in places I don't want it. Also the less stiff cables tend to become flat on the desk over time, which is actually bad because I can then feel it rubbing against the top edge of the mousepad (I've had to jerry-rigged a piece of wood covered in teflon tape to sit above the top of my mousepad to prevent this). Still, I think plain, lightweight rubber cables are the best but not fashionable these days on high end gaming mice.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> > Sensor
> yes
> > Sensor position
> yes
> >Mouse feet
> yes
> > Cable
> yes
> > Left side of mouse
> yes
> > Rear LED
> agree
> > Side button shape
> yes
> > Right side of mouse
> nonoononononooononononno disagree completely that ridge literally makes my grip possible without destroying my ring finger


If the right side of the mouse changed the coating to something with better grip, and removed the ridge and made a small inward dent OR symmertically copied the left side you would not only have room for both your pinky/ring finger but you'd get literally double the control.

The cable I like, I made a weird kind of like triangle shape and the stiff cord doesn't move across my pad so it's not swinging annoyingly everywhere. You should be using a mouse wire holder or taping down your cord! So the cable for me is great.


----------



## wareya

No, it is *very specifically* the shape of the ridge that allows my grip; that's what I said.

I literally just said that I use a weight/bungie for my cord.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Never had an issues with the cable at all. I do prefer rubberized cables as upposed to braided ones, however FM has one that's just fine by me.


----------



## cheeselol

The trick to having a flexible cable is to have another component on the mouse invariably fail before the cable does.


----------



## qsxcv

in my case with the fm it was a capacitor which desoldered itself somehow. fortunately that was an easy fix


----------



## wareya

that's hilarious


----------



## Fragil1ty

I recently returned my broken FM and bought a new one from the UK Amazon store, it arrived today and upon setting it up it appears that it wasn't as long as the one that I got from the U.S, now I'm not sure what's going on here, but I cannot use the mouse comfortably due the current length of the mouse as I use a mouse bungee.

Has the length of the cable for the mouse changed or something over the past couple of months? =s

edit:

picture for reference, this is me fully extending the mouse, previously I was able to have a lot more control and now every time I move it a bit to the right it pulls at the USB and thus making the wire fully extended and that is what is making me believe that it's a smaller cable.










The only options I have left at the moment are: a.) I plug the mouse into my monitor as I have a BenQ XL2420t /w a USB jack on the side of the monitor that plugs directly into the computer, thus generating the power needed to power said USB ports or b.) I've got a USB-extension that I bought from Apple years ago that as implied, just extends the length of the cable.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> The only options I have left at the moment are: a.) I plug the mouse into my monitor as I have a BenQ XL2420t /w a USB jack on the side of the monitor that plugs directly into the computer, thus generating the power needed to power said USB ports or b.) I've got a USB-extension that I bought from Apple years ago that as implied, just extends the length of the cable.


Definitely use a cable extender, you don't plug mice trough usb hubs...
btw option c) swap the cable with a longer one.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Wont they essentially do the same thing? But yeah I think I'll just do it via the cable extension route, it's just a little annoying. I'd rather not go inside the mouse and swap the cable, I don't want that much fussing about.


----------



## wareya

hubs have to route and repeat the USB information. extension cables do not. my hub causes stability issues for every mouse I put into it.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Okay thanks man, i'm going to plug it in via: usb cable now, I did have it in via: the monitor hub, but I'll change it and then hopefully all is well.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> it appears that it wasn't as long as the one that I got from the U.S, now.


My cord is 66" stretched out (not including mouse).


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> My cord is 66" stretched out (not including mouse).


I'll measure mine in a little while and get back to you.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

I have been using my FM2015 SE combined with my Zowie GS-R pad. Tracks great & the LOD is solid & low. I am going to compare the feel, tracking & LOD of the mouse on my PT talent then my QCK heavy & decide which i like the mouse on the most. Or if all are just fine.


----------



## kv2004

I have find out that FM 2015 are using the shell of a cheap chinese mouse which called "Motospeed V2". That mouse only sell less than 10 Euro in China.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kv2004*
> 
> I have find out that FM 2015 are using the shell of a cheap chinese mouse which called "Motospeed V2". That mouse only sell less than 10 Euro in China.


Welcome to Capitalism


----------



## wareya

Doesn't bother me, the shell shape is great.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kv2004*
> 
> I have find out that FM 2015 are using the shell of a cheap chinese mouse which called "Motospeed V2". That mouse only sell less than 10 Euro in China.


This is well known, the motospeed v2 is a terrible mouse however (but same shell).


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> This is well known, the motospeed v2 is a terrible mouse however (but same shell).


Someone opened it and it had a 3050 sensor, not that bad.


----------



## wareya

Yes but the implementation is really bad.


----------



## ncck

listen the performance of the mouse is great

the coating on the thumb side, and right side for me is pretty terrible - and the right side of the mouse is also terrible for me

If just those got adjusted this would be a really solid mouse for me - I was looking at their ambi version which looks like an alright shape but the two large mouse feet top/bottom kill it for me. I tried again and again and the 2x2 feet are always > 1x1 feet for accuracy (for me) you can try it on your own. I'm debating on returning the mouse, it's not bad at all but I'm just not fully satisfied with the shape soo idk what to do yet. Feels as if it's just enjoyable for the low delay on clicks and sensor position. :{


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> This is well known, the motospeed v2 is a terrible mouse however (but same shell).


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> Someone opened it and it had a 3050 sensor, not that bad.


Yeah, I opened it. I actually use the motospeed top shell on my final mouse, because my fm top shell had some issues. The 3050/firmware/implementation in the motospeed malfunctioned at anything over about 0.8m/s. The 3310 fm firmware even with the smoothing is far better. It feels like the FM price is a bit high, but it's close to the zowie/Mionix 3310 pricing.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> in my case with the fm it was a capacitor which desoldered itself somehow. fortunately that was an easy fix


how did you notice it was the capacitor, or was it lacking solder at the joint?


----------



## qsxcv

it lacked solder. idk but i added solder and it worked again


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Ok, so far i have tested a decent amount on my Zowie GS-R & my PT talent. Next up is my QCK Heavy.

FM tracks solidly on the Zowie pad, 0 issues with it. No problems with the color of the blue pad or white emblem in the center. Sensor is consistent on it & i have noticed no downfalls.

The PT talent is solid with the FM as well. Tracking again is consistent & solid as usual. 0 issues yet again. All in all it just comes down to preference as to which pad you want to run with the mouse.

Lastly i will test my QCK heavy with it & see how it stacks up to the other two.


----------



## Atavax

Any chance of a 2nd, lighter version of the fm being made?


----------



## cheeselol

I'm interested in picking up a FM to try it out. Is there a forthcoming revision on the horizon that I should wait for or is this a good time to pick one up from Amazon?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> I'm interested in picking up a FM to try it out. Is there a forthcoming revision on the horizon that I should wait for or is this a good time to pick one up from Amazon?


This is a fine time to pick one up. The revision will be the 2016 version, same body with a few things, such as new buttons & maybe the glossy gone. However with your 3 year warranty you should worry not. You'll be covered, if your 2015 SE breaks down around the time those drop? They'll send you the revision no hassle. So i'd say give it a go.


----------



## Buttnose

Please make mouse feet available for the FM Jude! The stock ones on mine are more or less flush with the bottom of the mouse now and the drag is both very noticeable and uncomfortable.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> Please make mouse feet available for the FM Jude! The stock ones on mine are more or less flush with the bottom of the mouse now and the drag is both very noticeable and uncomfortable.


Really hoping they do this soon. It's much needed. IF the mouse feet get super thin & it becomes a major issue with drag? I'm sure you can RMA it for that reason. With no solution what choice do you have hell.


----------



## turnschuh

Is it possible btw to add intellimouse feet on top of the existing ones or will you get issues with the LOD on lets say black cloth pads?


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Is it possible btw to add intellimouse feet on top of the existing ones or will you get issues with the LOD on lets say black cloth pads?


Yes it works fine.


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Really hoping they do this soon. It's much needed. IF the mouse feet get super thin & it becomes a major issue with drag? I'm sure you can RMA it for that reason. With no solution what choice do you have hell.


Doubt they'd do a RMA for this reason. I bought a 200x200 sheet of 1mm thick PTFE Teflon: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371284312817?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=640406272952&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT hoping I'll be able to get it to stick with some glue after I make some cut outs around the old feet. Its pretty annoying that this seems to be the only way of getting a fitted solution.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Teflon-PTFE-sheet-6-x12-or-8-x12-03-thick-super-strong-adhesive-backing-/121155513619?nav=SEARCH
._. Why is everything more expensive in US T_T


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/Teflon-PTFE-sheet-6-x12-or-8-x12-03-thick-super-strong-adhesive-backing-/121155513619?nav=SEARCH
> ._. Why is everything more expensive in US T_T


damn you've never looked at amazon.ca if you think USA is expensive lol

anyway heres this http://www.amazon.com/CS-Hyde-PTFE-Mouse-Color/dp/B003DZ16X4/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1439528308&sr=8-7&keywords=ptfe


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello All,

In regards to the replacement mousefeet. We figure that with the growing population of FM owners a third party will soon provide FM feet on their own.... With the current demand for them we don't see why this would not pop up in the marketplace very soon. That being said if we do not start seeing FM marketed mousefeet within the next month or two we will provide them ourselves and establish a point of sale to purchase them.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Buttnose

Any chance of your team reaching out to third parties? As you said there is indeed a growing population of FM users and some proactive action towards providing your customers with a solution would be very much appreciated.

I'm also wondering if the mousefeet that you intend to provide will be the same as the stock feet on the FM? Hoping that something more durable/thicker will be released as the feet on mine have already worn down to the point of being flush with the bottom of the mouse, in the space of about 2 months. This has lead to the edges of the mouse scratching down my mousepad.


----------



## doomleika

Well, LinusTechTips is now squarely on my paid-shill list.


----------



## wareya

Delusion detected


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

That review is really, really, really.....rrrreeeallllyyyy bad. I wish I didn't watch it now.


----------



## PU skunk

What's so bad about it. Seems a little overstated.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> That review is really, really, really.....rrrreeeallllyyyy bad. I wish I didn't watch it now.


I have to agree. Lol


----------



## WumboJumbo

If I ordered this tommorow, would I get the version with the new thicker feet+crisper clicks?

Those are the only things deciding if I buy it or not, @FinalmouseJude please


----------



## Deadeye

So when they will release ambi version?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadeye*
> 
> So when they will release ambi version?


We are working really hard to have the mouse out in time for the holidays. There is a chance it could even be ready sooner since so far we have made great headway.

And also we managed to incorporate a really nice grainy plastic for the side that also manages to look very aesthetically pleasing. Ill post this sneak peek image but this will be the last photo I can put up before the final announcement.



Thanks,
Finalmouse Jude


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, LinusTechTips is now squarely on my paid-shill list.


I thought the review was pretty good. Sums up the mouse for pretty accurately in my experience, but maybe he could have toned down on the enthusiasm and yelling in the video. I don't think that kinda style works for him. More direct and quiet would have been better.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We are working really hard to have the mouse out in time for the holidays. There is a chance it could even be ready sooner since so far we have made great headway.
> 
> And also we managed to incorporate a really nice grainy plastic for the side that also manages to look very aesthetically pleasing. Ill post this sneak peek image but this will be the last photo I can put up before the final announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Finalmouse Jude


Looks good to me, i'm sure others will certainly chime in, this is what i am personally waiting for.

This and the ergo FM with the updated buttons & other things will be good to see.


----------



## PU skunk

Ok it was a lot overstated. I was trying to be nice. It's no "aimbot" for me.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We are working really hard to have the mouse out in time for the holidays. There is a chance it could even be ready sooner since so far we have made great headway.
> 
> And also we managed to incorporate a really nice grainy plastic for the side that also manages to look very aesthetically pleasing. Ill post this sneak peek image but this will be the last photo I can put up before the final announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Finalmouse Jude


If thats non-glossy plastic on the sides.. then awesome








is it possible to get a shot of the right side of the mouse too?


----------



## Deadeye

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We are working really hard to have the mouse out in time for the holidays. There is a chance it could even be ready sooner since so far we have made great headway.
> 
> And also we managed to incorporate a really nice grainy plastic for the side that also manages to look very aesthetically pleasing. Ill post this sneak peek image but this will be the last photo I can put up before the final announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Finalmouse Jude


Thanks Jude, the only thing i hate is marketing on facebook your company mentioned "Soon", holidays are not soon


----------



## doomleika

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaptchka*
> 
> I thought the review was pretty good. Sums up the mouse for pretty accurately in my experience, but maybe he could have toned down on the enthusiasm and yelling in the video. I don't think that kinda style works for him. More direct and quiet would have been better.


If you don't mind, go check some earlier posts in this thread by @qsxcv. He had made quite a few test which bust a lot of 'secret sauce' from finalmouse. It has in-built smoothing on MCU level(funny a lot of people claim this mouse feels more 'raw'), which others don't, it detect motions slower than others, and the build quality is horrible.

The only thing about this mouse which is not horrible is the button latency test. That dude in the review did stupid thing in the past like calling LoL 'inferior' (like it or not, LoL is biggest competitive game at the moment) .


----------



## wareya

Can you please not do FUD?

>in english, basically every outputted value is the average of the latest raw data from the sensor and the previous output.
Which means that the latency effect is on the order of 1ms or 2ms, depending on how you define the latency effect of exponential smoothing.

Here's more:

>they could take off the mcu smoothing but idk whether there's any 3310 srom with no sensor level smoothing
>well iirc woll3 said a few months ago that an srom update came out for 3310 and other related sensors which reduce smoothing
>i could figure out which srom the finalmouse se uses but it's not really helpful without any other 3310 mouse to compare against
>just tried jonagold's test with wmo and [email protected] wmo's first response was always faster by ~1ms or so. though i used 1000hz on wmo...
>fyi g100s has 4 frames, almost 1ms, of smoothing [you know this already]

And on someone's crazily smoothed FM:

>one possibility/theory is that the illumination on their finalmouses is poor, and the 3310 automatically compensates for this by increasing the smoothing amount.


----------



## qsxcv

well
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> g502 (positive) vs finalmouse (negative), 400dpi, 500hz (because finalmouse only does 500)
> 
> at time=1878ms, g502 has moved 11 counts, finalmouse has moved 5 counts


though i'm pretty sure this is more related to sensor dsp smoothing in the 3310

@finalmousejude do you have anything to say about what sensor you guys will use next? (3320, public 3366?







)


----------



## abso

Wrong thread, plz delete


----------



## wareya

Depends on whether you're okay doing exchanges until you get a good FM. They vary a _lot_.


----------



## detto87

Ambi model looks nice. Any measurements yet? I hope they go with a flexible rubber cord instead of braided.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Fm is off of Amazon, i assume thr new version should be out soon.


----------



## Noismo

Ambi model looks perfect! Reminds me great shape of Razer Copperhead.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Does anyone know the weight of the Ambi yet?


----------



## Buttnose

Just received my teflon sheet from ebay today, now wondering if removing the FM stock feet will invalidate my warranty? I'd rather not fix one thing, then have something else go wrong and not be able to RMA.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Does anyone know the weight of the Ambi yet?


Jude said it will be either the same weight as the ERGO FM, or lighter.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> Just received my teflon sheet from ebay today, now wondering if removing the FM stock feet will invalidate my warranty? I'd rather not fix one thing, then have something else go wrong and not be able to RMA.


Just toss em over the feet & see how it tracks first cause i have no idea if it will screw your warranty. Maybe you could contact support & ask actually.


----------



## kt6999

Just bought this mouse and am loving it. I like the shape alot even if it is just a oem design. Sensor works perfect on my artisan pads but I dont like the 500hz. The mousefeet scrape when i put the mouse at a angle. The right click is too sensitive but thats probably due to me exclusively using zowie mice before.

Does anyone know if the cable will fit in a zowie camade?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, LinusTechTips is now squarely on my paid-shill list.


Is that Edyago(correct spelling?)?
I think the enthusiasm is a bit over the top, but then I tend to be very slow and elaborate when talking. He was honest with the downsides of the FM and I believe him that the FM performs for him how he wants. My FM works just fine but not particularly better than my other 3310 mice.
And many people said they preferred the FM feel, so maybe humans just prefer a smoother cursor and mistake it for being more raw than it actually is.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We are working really hard to have the mouse out in time for the holidays. There is a chance it could even be ready sooner since so far we have made great headway.
> 
> And also we managed to incorporate a really nice grainy plastic for the side that also manages to look very aesthetically pleasing. Ill post this sneak peek image but this will be the last photo I can put up before the final announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Finalmouse Jude


That ambi version look really good, I'm quite curious about it. No other mouse on the horizon that sparks my interest right now.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomleika*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, LinusTechTips is now squarely on my paid-shill list.


I didn't find anything shill worthy about that review. He was being silly and judging by the comment section that didn't go over so well but i feel he was being honest. He didn't glaze over glaring flaws like *other* "reviews" and he explained what he liked about the mouse. The review was colored like an honest opinion instead of black and white like a paid advertisement. I prefer a honest review that I don't agree with over the alternative.

Besides he said he bought the mouse himself. Linustechtips is also big enough that they don't need to be gentle (lie) with their opinions to keep the products flowing in like others are clearly doing.


----------



## detto87

Just checked out where to get one of those FM15 .... well, after looking at the price for that thing I closed all web tabs I had open for that it.


----------



## ncck

Has there been a poll for the mouse feet of the ambi version to be 2x2 or 1x1? Or is it finalized as 1x1 - would be a shame cause for me 2x2 > 1x1


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Has there been a poll for the mouse feet of the ambi version to be 2x2 or 1x1? Or is it finalized as 1x1 - would be a shame cause for me 2x2 > 1x1


No Poll, last we were told it would be 1x1


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Jude said it will be either the same weight as the ERGO FM, or lighter.
> Just toss em over the feet & see how it tracks first cause i have no idea if it will screw your warranty. Maybe you could contact support & ask actually.


Forgive me for being a completely ignorant dummy but how much does the Ergo FM weigh?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Forgive me for being a completely ignorant dummy but how much does the Ergo FM weigh?


74 grams


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

How about dimensions?


----------



## jung1e

So it seems the OTM switches will not be used in the side buttons of the 'FM Ambi' but the side buttons on the regular FM will not be updated til early 2016, also asked again about possible rubber cable in the future just to see if their minds have changed at all.

Other concerns I have are the shape on the side buttons being too pointy and uncomfortable in a few reviews, and does anyone have both the FM and a ZOWIE EC, and if so which do you prefer?
Quote:


> Hello Justin,
> 
> The side buttons on the FinalMouse will be updated with the next revision in early 2016. That being said, the FinalMouse Ambi will be available with updated switches.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jung1e*
> 
> So it seems the OTM switches will not be used in the side buttons of the 'FM Ambi' but the side buttons on the regular FM will not be updated til early 2016, also asked again about possible rubber cable in the future just to see if their minds have changed at all.
> 
> Other concerns I have are the shape on the side buttons being too pointy and uncomfortable in a few reviews, and does anyone have both the FM and a ZOWIE EC, and if so which do you prefer?


Ec buttons by far


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Ec buttons by far


Sorry, meant to ask like the mouse overall preference


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jung1e*
> 
> Sorry, meant to ask like the mouse overall preference


Oh okay no problem. Lol

To answer, i have NEVER had a mouse as comfy as the Ec1-A is in my hands(& the Kone XTD OPTICAL). I have tested a lot of mice. The Ec is by far the most comfy to my hand, it fits so snug it's a sin. The performance of both are solid.


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Oh okay no problem. Lol
> 
> To answer, i have NEVER had a mouse as comfy as the Ec1-A is in my hands(& the Kone XTD OPTICAL). I have tested a lot of mice. The Ec is by far the most comfy to my hand, it fits so snug it's a sin. The performance of both are solid.


Yeah the 3.0 is the only mouse that is more comfortable, and the EC is definitely a worthy successor, but itching to try something new, hope the 2015 revision comes sooner than planned


----------



## IlIkeJuice

The ambi looks like a cross between a Deathadder and a IMO.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We are working really hard to have the mouse out in time for the holidays. There is a chance it could even be ready sooner since so far we have made great headway.
> 
> And also we managed to incorporate a really nice grainy plastic for the side that also manages to look very aesthetically pleasing. Ill post this sneak peek image but this will be the last photo I can put up before the final announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Finalmouse Jude


Cross between a DA and a IMO? Works for me.

Hope the front isn't plunging too much. That's what I like about the DA and IMO (and Kone), it's nice and tall at the front, makes it more comfortable, instead of the Zowie / Sensei style.


----------



## Soo8

@FinalmouseJude Will you have replacement mouse feet, aftermarket ones for the 2015 and ambi versions? Maybe collaborate with Hyperglide or maybe the chinese Tiger gaming, hotline companies to supply replacement ones. I can only say good things about the chinese ones.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> The ambi looks like a cross between a Deathadder and a IMO.
> Cross between a DA and a IMO? Works for me.
> 
> Hope the front isn't plunging too much. That's what I like about the DA and IMO (and Kone), it's nice and tall at the front, makes it more comfortable, instead of the Zowie / Sensei style.


Looks more like a Razer Taipan to me


----------



## bond10

So we have the finalmouse 2015 and this new ambi one. Is there any other version that's coming out?

Also, is the finalmouse close to the IE 3.0 shape? Does your ring finger lay on top of the mouse or the side?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> So we have the finalmouse 2015 and this new ambi one. Is there any other version that's coming out?
> 
> Also, is the finalmouse close to the IE 3.0 shape? Does your ring finger lay on top of the mouse or the side?


Just those two. Your finger can do either, top or side. Me personally, ring finger on the top(side lip), pinky on the side.


----------



## Deadeye

So we can expect ambi at around x-mas?


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Ambi model looks nice. Any measurements yet? I hope they go with a flexible rubber cord instead of braided.


I think @FinalmouseJude stated earlier that the braided cord is going to stay. What I don't understand is why so many prefer flexible rubber cords over the braided ones? The Zowie cables for example are horrible. Swinging the mouse around the pad and the cord is just "flap flap flap" from the side to another creating a minor pull. My KPM's braided cable is quite a bit stiffer. It never flaps anywhere and there's much less drag/pull unless the cord gets stuck on a cheap-ass mouse pads non-stitched sharp edges.

The mouse itself looks very promising. I am just hoping that they can provide a firmware supporting 1000 Hz and, more importantly, bring the QC up to par. Call me entitled or whatever, I just think the current price tag is too high for a mouse that has quite a bit of issues as we have seen here regarding the previous models.


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I think @FinalmouseJude stated earlier that the braided cord is going to stay. What I don't understand is why so many prefer flexible rubber cords over the braided ones? The Zowie cables for example are horrible. Swinging the mouse around the pad and the cord is just "flap flap flap" from the side to another creating a minor pull. My KPM's braided cable is quite a bit stiffer. It never flaps anywhere and there's much less drag/pull unless the cord gets stuck on a cheap-ass mouse pads non-stitched sharp edges.


Highly recommend suspending the Zowie cable with a mouse bungee or similar. Avoids the problem you describe and retains all the benefits of a rubber cord.

The braided cables fray way too quickly over wood surfaces if they travel against the grain. They also tend to catch and fray on the edges mousepads without stitched edges like my Artisan Hien (which is a very well built and resilient pad, despite your disparaging comment about non-stitched mouse pads).


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> Highly recommend suspending the Zowie cable with a mouse bungee or similar. Avoids the problem you describe and retains all the benefits of a rubber cord.
> 
> The braided cables fray way too quickly over wood surfaces if they travel against the grain. They also tend to catch and fray on the edges mousepads without stitched edges like my Artisan Hien (which is a very well built and resilient pad, despite your disparaging comment about non-stitched mouse pads).


I have my cables suspended but it doesn't really help as my mouse is generally quite low on my pad so there's always quite a bit of cable "free". Also, suspending the cable fixes all the problems you have with the braided cable










I have never seen a braided cable fray and the KPM braided cable is, by far, the best mouse cable I have ever had in a mouse. It's never in the way if you just remember to keep it out from the edges of the mousepad. The edges are a problem for rubber cables too, just a bit different issue.

Out of rubber cables, the G400 cable is the best one for me (obviously excluding the connection issues to the board). I prefer _stiffer_ lightweight cords, not just braided ones.


----------



## detto87

I guess it also depends on the sensitivity level you play on, like how fast and how far you have to move your mouse across the pad. With a flexible cord like Zowie's I can lay enough of the cable on the table like a snake and move my mouse freely on a 60x60cm mousepad without ever stretching the cable or it hindering me. Braided cables I used are most of the time too heavy and need real good placement and length on the table to minimize the annoyance it brings with quick and far mouse movements.


----------



## Derp

@FinalmouseJude Will this new ambidextrous version be locked at 500Hz also?


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I have my cables suspended but it doesn't really help as my mouse is generally quite low on my pad so there's always quite a bit of cable "free". Also, suspending the cable fixes all the problems you have with the braided cable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have never seen a braided cable fray and the KPM braided cable is, by far, the best mouse cable I have ever had in a mouse. It's never in the way if you just remember to keep it out from the edges of the mousepad. The edges are a problem for rubber cables too, just a bit different issue.
> 
> Out of rubber cables, the G400 cable is the best one for me (obviously excluding the connection issues to the board). I prefer _stiffer_ lightweight cords, not just braided ones.


I do suspend my cables, including the braided cables on my KPM, G303, G500s, and X5. The KPM and G303 are the worst offenders of catching on the edge of the mousepad and are beginning to fray after not a whole lot of use. The X5 has a denser weave and doesn't seem to be affected nearly as much. Honestly, I had forgotten the X5 had a braided cable and that's one of my favorite mice, so I guess I do think are decent braided cables out there.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I guess it also depends on the sensitivity level you play on, like how fast and how far you have to move your mouse across the pad. With a flexible cord like Zowie's I can lay enough of the cable on the table like a snake and move my mouse freely on a 60x60cm mousepad without ever stretching the cable or it hindering me. Braided cables I used are most of the time too heavy and need real good placement and length on the table to minimize the annoyance it brings with quick and far mouse movements.


Odd. To me the Zowie cable feels extremely heavy. 20-30 cm is enough for the cable to flap around causing weird "pull" which I dislike quite a bit. I really prefer the G100s cable over the one in the Zowie's.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> I do suspend my cables, including the braided cables on my KPM, G303, G500s, and X5. The KPM and G303 are the worst offenders of catching on the edge of the mousepad and are beginning to fray after not a whole lot of use. The X5 has a denser weave and doesn't seem to be affected nearly as much. Honestly, I had forgotten the X5 had a braided cable and that's one of my favorite mice, so I guess I do think are decent braided cables out there.


A year of use and not a single fray on my KPM cable. (EDIT: Well, there is but really a negligible amount, a single fiber here and there sticking out) Doesn't catch to my MM200 edges at all even though this pad has probably the worst edges there is. I don't understand how you can get the cable to catch the edges if you suspend the cable with a mouse bungee, though.

Haven't tried the X5 but to me the KPM has a perfect cable already









Anyways, this is mostly a subjective matter. You can just always open the FM and switch the cable if you are not happy with it.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Stripped G303 cable is best


----------



## jung1e

trism I personally prefer the rubber cable simply due to the braided cables eventually fraying,


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

You could always strip braided cables if it bothers you so much.


----------



## jtl999

I miss my G400 cable, never had the issue with the disconnect (brother did and blamed me







) but the left click wore out after 2.5 years of use.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

I'm wondering why the mouse is currently out of stock on Amazon for the US. Seems a bit weird seeing as the revision is not coming until after the Ambi version later this year. I wonder if we'll get word on why this is so & when it will be back on sale.


----------



## Ijee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> I'm wondering why the mouse is currently out of stock on Amazon for the US. Seems a bit weird seeing as the revision is not coming until after the Ambi version later this year. I wonder if we'll get word on why this is so & when it will be back on sale.


Well, yeah they said something about the NA availability.

https://twitter.com/finalmouse/status/633857542012186624


----------



## ncck

So I figure the fm2015 will never get 'mold' changes, so I returned it.. will check back to hear what people think of the ambi version.... back to my click delay fk1 :l


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> So I figure the fm2015 will never get 'mold' changes, so I returned it.. will check back to hear what people think of the ambi version.... back to my click delay fk1 :l


What's your issues with the current build?


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> What's your issues with the current build?


I made a large post a few pages back

here's a short run down

Right side ridge where your ring finger goes
coating on the left side/right side isn't good - slips way too much
mouse feet while I like the 2x2, are too thin and after wearing it now grinds during certain hand movements
I also don't like how the two click buttons don't 'cave downward' accidentally clicking often cause my fingers are super long

So basically the mouse performs well, it's just I can't get a decent grip on it and without a good grip you just don't perform as well as you should. Also I've been causing it to 'aim straight to the ground' a lot, I think it has to do with the LOD because it's not malfunctioning so somehow I'm lifting it in a way where it just loses tracking and aims straight at the ground

I'll wait reviews on their ambi version that shape and coating looks a bit nicer. Hope they go for 0.7mm feet


----------



## wareya

>Right side ridge where your ring finger goes

I literally need this to be the way it currently is in the ergo version to use the mouse properly. The ridge prevents my finger from wrecking itself against the shell.

>coating on the left side/right side isn't good - slips way too much

Agreed.

>I also don't like how the two click buttons don't 'cave downward' accidentally clicking often cause my fingers are super long

I can see this bring a problem, especially for such a light mouse.

>So basically the mouse performs well, it's just I can't get a decent grip on it

You're not going to get a perfect palm grip on an ergo mouse meant to compromise between every kind of grip and size of hands.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >Right side ridge where your ring finger goes
> 
> I literally need this to be the way it currently is in the ergo version to use the mouse properly. The ridge prevents my finger from wrecking itself against the shell.
> 
> >coating on the left side/right side isn't good - slips way too much
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> >I also don't like how the two click buttons don't 'cave downward' accidentally clicking often cause my fingers are super long
> 
> I can see this bring a problem, especially for such a light mouse.
> 
> >So basically the mouse performs well, it's just I can't get a decent grip on it
> 
> You're not going to get a perfect palm grip on an ergo mouse meant to compromise between every kind of grip and size of hands.


^^^ well said


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

What is this ergo version that people keep on mentioning?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> What is this ergo version that people keep on mentioning?


The current version of FM.

BTW @Wareya i have long fingers too, pretty big hand too. My fingers hang over the front of my mouse, anyone elses do the same? Lol


----------



## wareya

Naw, I use fingertip grip, which is why the ridge is so good for me. I can lift the mouse properly because it cups the side of my ring finger.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Naw, I use fingertip grip, which is why the ridge is so good for me. I can lift the mouse properly because it cups the side of my ring finger.


Oh okay i see. Well mine hang over. Lol


----------



## Skyval

I used the FinalMouse for a couple of days a while ago. The ridge on the right side of the mouse was painful for me in fingertip grip, it's the reason I returned it. It felt fine in palm grip. My fingers did hang over but they do that with almost all mice, I don't mind it at all. But then again I find the Zowie ZA13 comfortable in palm grip despite 21cm hands, so I may be an outlier.


----------



## RyuLAN

Haven't kept up with this thread-- but wanted to share my thoughts since receiving the "SE" version. The only thing that prevented me from using this as my go-to mouse in the past was the weird and inconsistent DPI steps (sometimes it'd be low, sometimes high, and either way I couldn't keep my in game sensitivity).

I've been using the SE version for a couple of weeks now, and have had 0 issues with it. *It's now my full time mouse.*

What I like:
Switches are great
Scroll wheel is smooth/clean and I can bhop way better with this mouse than my previous which had a stiff scroll wheel
Super lightweight
Comfortable ergo grip
I like the texture

What I don't like:
Insanely bright white LED if you game with the lights out in the room lol

I'm very interested in their ambidextrous model... though I don't know if I'd switch off the ergo one as it stands right now.

-Ryu


----------



## AuraDesruu

Is there any chance that FM might change the glossy textures on the mouse to something a little bit more grainy or something. Notice that glossy surfaces usually tend to build up nasty stuff for sweaty hands.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> Is there any chance that FM might change the glossy textures on the mouse to something a little bit more grainy or something. Notice that glossy surfaces usually tend to build up nasty stuff for sweaty hands.


You could try using large grit sandpaper
Also obligatory


----------



## Pirx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> You could always strip braided cables if it bothers you so much.


is that possible with the g303's cable without damaging it? guess i'll do this with mine, i prefer thin rubber cords (as on zowie, razer).


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pirx*
> 
> is that possible with the g303's cable without damaging it? guess i'll do this with mine, i prefer thin rubber cords (as on zowie, razer).


Yes you just have to do it very carefully.


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> You could try using large grit sandpaper
> Also obligatory


Who actually really liked the glossy material on their mouse? The old deathadders even changed the sides from glossy to grainy plastic with rubber sides. Glossy sucks most of the times unless your hand is extremely dry all the time.


----------



## detto87

You always lose.
At least my hands aren't compatible with most of the coatings/tops of mice.

Plastic gets shiny and you see those shiny spots.
Rubber coating gets oily and ugly.
Glossy is only good for first minutes gameplay when hands are dry, then you have soap in hand.

Whatever they used on the G400 was really good IIRC.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81wlRnbDgxL._SL1500_.jpg


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

What we need are PBT textured shells.


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AuraDesruu*
> 
> Who actually really liked the glossy material on their mouse? The old deathadders even changed the sides from glossy to grainy plastic with rubber sides. Glossy sucks most of the times unless your hand is extremely dry all the time.


I like glossy buttons. It lets me comfortably relocate my fingers without lifting off the buttons. The rubberized material like the Rival's top or the KPM's sides are also good to the same effect. I think that glossy surfaces are just typically used in the wrong places where a grippier texture is more appropriate e.g. the palm hump and sides of the mouse.


----------



## gujukal

How does this mouse work with small hands? My hands are only 18 cm long and I'm currently using Kinzu V3. I however used MX518 in the past but unfortunately it stopped working. I've also tried the Razer Imperator and really liked the shape. Would the FM2015 be a good choice or should i wait for a smaller version? I really like light mice with good grip and not too bulky.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gujukal*
> 
> How does this mouse work with small hands? My hands are only 18 cm long and I'm currently using Kinzu V3. I however used MX518 in the past but unfortunately it stopped working. I've also tried the Razer Imperator and really liked the shape. Would the FM2015 be a good choice or should i wait for a smaller version? I really like light mice with good grip and not too bulky.


You will like the shape then & the mouse will fit well for your hand size. Give it a go.


----------



## Swinbag

Was planning on ordering one but they seem to have disappeared from Amazon UK - guessing a new version is coming out?

Personally, I love glossy sides on mice; my hands stay dry most of the time so I can't grip many of the current gaming mice...


----------



## gujukal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> You will like the shape then & the mouse will fit well for your hand size. Give it a go.


Ok, i actually think this could be the mouse for me since i like the ergonomic shape over ambidex but i hate how heavy these mice usually are. Even the Sensei Raw makes me perform worse in CSGO with its 90 g weight. I use low sens, so i need to be able to move the mice very fast.


----------



## Nilizum

The mouse is 74g dude... That ain't heavy, i think?


----------



## gujukal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> The mouse is 74g dude... That ain't heavy, i think?


Nope, i was refering to other ergonomical mice. Its even lighter than my Kinzu


----------



## Cloudy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> What we need are PBT textured shells.


Isn't Ducky trying that with the Secret?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cloudy*
> 
> Isn't Ducky trying that with the Secret?


Yes but unfortunately PBT is denser so more weight so there is a tradeoff excluding increased cost.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Swinbag*
> 
> Was planning on ordering one but they seem to have disappeared from Amazon UK - guessing a new version is coming out?
> 
> Personally, I love glossy sides on mice; my hands stay dry most of the time so I can't grip many of the current gaming mice...


Lots of orders, should be back in stock by september 10th is what i was told a few days ago.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> The mouse is 74g dude... That ain't heavy, i think?


Nope, it's light as hell.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

@FinalMouseJude
What Omrons are the Ambi going to feature?


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Cloudy*
> 
> Isn't Ducky trying that with the Secret?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but unfortunately PBT is denser so more weight so there is a tradeoff excluding increased cost.
Click to expand...

Microsoft original ball mice where all made out of PBT. Damn tough they were and needless to say lasted for decades.

Nothing made today lasts more than a couple of years, so if this company actually want to make a quality product just take a look at the older Microsoft mice and see how it was done before, when people actually kept their input devices for more than 10 years at a time.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Swinbag*
> 
> Was planning on ordering one but they seem to have disappeared from Amazon UK - guessing a new version is coming out?
> 
> Personally, I love glossy sides on mice; my hands stay dry most of the time so I can't grip many of the current gaming mice...


No they are just sold out. Same as amazon.com. Fair play to them. Seem to have made a decent name for themselves really quick.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Microsoft original ball mice where all made out of PBT. Damn tough they were and needless to say lasted for decades.
> 
> Nothing made today lasts more than a couple of years, so if this company actually want to make a quality product just take a look at the older Microsoft mice and see how it was done before, when people actually kept their input devices for more than 10 years at a time.


If companies overbuilt mice then they wont have returning customers.


----------



## Noismo

How about 3310 in similar to SS Kinzu shape?


----------



## Scrimstar

zowie za13
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Noismo*
> 
> How about 3310 in similar to SS Kinzu shape?


----------



## Noismo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrimstar*
> 
> zowie za13


It's only looks like similar but actually not.


----------



## RDno1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Noismo*
> 
> It's only looks like similar but actually not.


True, the FK2 should be closer to the Kinzu.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RDno1*
> 
> True, the FK2 should be closer to the Kinzu.


I've owned both. Loved the Kinzu, hated the FK2. Shapes were quite different


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> I've owned both. Loved the Kinzu, hated the FK2. Shapes were quite different


I didn't hate the original FK but the Kinzu is a better shape in my opinion and they are not even close unless you kinzufy your FK







The bump is closer to the middle in the FK and it feels quite a bit longer.

ZA13 looks indeed much more like the Kinzu than the FK, going to test it later this week.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

How's the LOD on the FM 2015?


----------



## wareya

~1cd


----------



## kr0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> ~1cd


Really? Mine feels a lot higher than that. LOD is primarily why I don't use the mouse


----------



## wareya

It was actually less than 1 CD for me so there you go, ~1CD


----------



## Scrimstar

FOR MY MIONIX AVIOR 7000 it is 1cd on the corsair mm200 but 2cd on SS QCK


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

I do not believe a little high of a lift off is enough to just drop a mouse especially if everything else was to your liking. Maybe it's just me. Lol


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kr0w*
> 
> Really? Mine feels a lot higher than that. LOD is primarily why I don't use the mouse


What surface do you use?


----------



## Sencha

Final mouse, why u no stock?


----------



## kr0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> What surface do you use?


Steelseries s&s, hard plastic


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kr0w*
> 
> Steelseries s&s, hard plastic


Idk. It might be your pad. Optical mice tend to perform way better on cloth.

On my Artisan Zero XSoft, Qck Heavy, Corepad 4XL, and Xtrac Ripper XXL, its all ~1 CD lift off distance.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Final mouse, why u no stock?


September 10th.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> September 10th.


Im throwing money at the screen but nothing is coming out.


----------



## Sencha

I'm also doing this. I may switch to notes as the coins are scratching my screen though


----------



## IcarusLSC

gawd that thing looks tiny. How does someone with bigger hands find a decent mouse now a days? Are peoples hands getting smaller?!


----------



## wareya

small -> lighter -> lightness fad -> manufacturers making smaller mice


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IcarusLSC*
> 
> gawd that thing looks tiny. How does someone with bigger hands find a decent mouse now a days? Are peoples hands getting smaller?!


I have a monster hand, the mouse still feels great to me, have never ever cramped in long gaming sessions. Most mice my fingers hang ove the end a bit, i have still found i to be no issue at all despite this.

Other mice exist for a 'big' hand though if you are searching. Ec1-A is amazing...Xtd optical is another i have recommended before.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Im throwing money at the screen but nothing is coming out.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> I'm also doing this. I may switch to notes as the coins are scratching my screen though


Patience boys. Lol hope they get em in stock sooner than the 10th but i was told 'roughly' the 10th two different times so we shall see.


----------



## Buttnose

Gonna contact mousefeet makers directly about making some for FM as the ones i made suck and FM don't seem to want release their own. Corepad/tiger/puretrak, who else makes mouse feet?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> Gonna contact mousefeet makers directly about making some for FM as the ones i made suck and FM don't seem to want release their own. Corepad/tiger/puretrak, who else makes mouse feet?


HYPErglide


----------



## mksteez

Whats the dimension of the FinalMouse? I want to give it a try


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mksteez*
> 
> Whats the dimension of the FinalMouse? I want to give it a try


Product Dimensions: 5.4 x 2.2 x 2.1 inches; 4.3 ounces


----------



## Sencha

One randomly just popped up on Amazon.co.uk so I grabbed it!


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> One randomly just popped up on Amazon.co.uk so I grabbed it!


Probably a returned and used one







with sweatstains


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Probably a returned and used one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with sweatstains


I except nothing less!

I'm fine if its used though. Amazon can pick up the tab once the new batch is in and in the meantime I get to use the (seminal fluid dipped) FM!


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I hope you have disinfectant wipes


----------



## Sencha

Lol

Do they actually come sealed normally?


----------



## gujukal

Is there any pics of this mouse compared with MX518, Razer Imperator or G400? Would love to know how big te FM is compared to those.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gujukal*
> 
> Is there any pics of this mouse compared with MX518, Razer Imperator or G400? Would love to know how big te FM is compared to those.


Have you tried google? Lol


----------



## gujukal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Have you tried google? Lol


Yupp, didn't find anything.


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gujukal*
> 
> Is there any pics of this mouse compared with MX518, Razer Imperator or G400? Would love to know how big te FM is compared to those.


well, the shape is about 100% razer imperator, correct me someone if it's actually scaled smaller or bigger(but i doubt it







).


----------



## Ufasas

Got rival with sweatstains, used monitor cleaning wipes, screw that 40 gbp price for a new one







10 gbp for a used one like a steal. If i could find finalmouse for 10-20 gbp, woa, i'm grabbing it!

Anyways, what about FM SE2015 edition? Summer edition?


----------



## AuraDesruu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> I like glossy buttons. It lets me comfortably relocate my fingers without lifting off the buttons. The rubberized material like the Rival's top or the KPM's sides are also good to the same effect. I think that glossy surfaces are just typically used in the wrong places where a grippier texture is more appropriate e.g. the palm hump and sides of the mouse.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ufasas*
> 
> Got rival with sweatstains, used monitor cleaning wipes, screw that 40 gbp price for a new one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 gbp for a used one like a steal. If i could find finalmouse for 10-20 gbp, woa, i'm grabbing it!
> 
> Anyways, what about FM SE2015 edition? Summer edition?


Supposely comes out this sept 10th(restocks)...

I might get it...
I'm more interested in SS Rival Fade out of everything. SS keeps teasing it on there twitter like it might actually come out. So I'm going to save my money for battlefront and a SS rival fade (if it comes out).


----------



## aleexkrysel

I'll probably pick it up along with the Castor and compare the 2 as well as my KPM to see what I enjoy most.


----------



## mksteez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aleexkrysel*
> 
> I'll probably pick it up along with the Castor and compare the 2 as well as my KPM to see what I enjoy most.


Would like to hear your opinion when you test the 2 against your KPM


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aleexkrysel*
> 
> I'll probably pick it up along with the Castor and compare the 2 as well as my KPM to see what I enjoy most.


Pshhhh that's an easy win. FinalMouse takes the cake in that battle...you know...or we'll find you...


----------



## qsxcv

so are we never gunna get the firmware update?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The clicker tooling has actually already been adjusted and went into effect for a recent production batch. I'm not sure exactly when this batch will hit retailers. But the new clicks feel very crisp. Also we are now actually checking batches of switches from OMRON ourselves before accepting them from their factory.
> 
> Anyways sorry for being MIA lately, been very busy as our whole team is working on a lot of exciting things. We are working on getting the ambi model ready for release before the holidays this year.
> 
> The new ambi model sports an amazing new encoder for the mousewheel that we imported from Japan, and obviously the mouse it's tooled and designed from the ground up completely by us. We are very happy with the final design, as you can see from the pictures it takes a lot of the great things from past legacy mice and brings it together in a fantastic way.
> 
> The weight is actually going to be the same if not slightly lighter than the current FM. We are using larger and better Teflon skates on the bottom, one at the top and one at the bottom.
> 
> There will be no more glossy sides. We are still deciding on whether we want rubberized sides or grainy plastic sides.
> 
> Also in other news we have acquired an amazing new applications engineer who has a wealth of experience in sensor and imaging technologies including DSP algorithms and development. We plan on having much more control over the algorithm fields and system architecture so we can really narrow down the tracking feel we (and our pros) are looking for. Additionally we are developing a proprietary sensor technology we are currently calling "RC Drive". More on this as we get closer to our patent filing.
> 
> Anyways I'd love to get your guys' opinions on the side material for the finalmouse ambi. Grainy plastic or rubberized coating?


It really really depends on the exact materials being used.

The textured plastic on the IMO 1.1 gave me nothing but problems, and essentially made the mouse unuseable for me. But the textured plastic on the Aurora was perfect for sweaty or dry. But it also has to do with the outward slant of the 1.1 sides that didn't provide any grip.

Equally, there are rubberized coatings which are terrible for sweaty or dry, and there are some which are great for one or both.

A few other really important details:

1. Why is the scroll wheel on the ambi still so far back? It makes it impossible to scroll with the middle finger.
2. From the picture you provided, it looks like the ridge protecting the ring finger from accidentally clicking the right button is not there anymore, which is obviously problematic.
3. What are the dimensions of the mouse? It's really important that it's no less than ~65mm width. This seems to be the best compromise between all hand sizes.


----------



## detto87

Textured ABS or PBT is better than a rubber coating. All rubber coated mice I used (which are quite a lot tbh) look nasty and ugly after not a long time using it. I don't have such problems with the grainy plastic on the WMO. Sure, it also became shiny over the years, but it still provides better grip than a used rubber side.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> A few other really important details:
> 
> 1. Why is the scroll wheel on the ambi still so far back? It makes it impossible to scroll with the middle finger.
> 2. From the picture you provided, it looks like the ridge protecting the ring finger from accidentally clicking the right button is not there anymore, which is obviously problematic.
> 3. What are the dimensions of the mouse? It's really important that it's no less than ~65mm width. This seems to be the best compromise between all hand sizes.


+1 to all of that!


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Textured ABS or PBT is better than a rubber coating.


Would love to see a return of an all PBT shelled mouse from some manufacturer who wants to stand alone in the wilderness of delivering quality Mouse casings.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> so are we never gunna get the firmware update?


probably never considering the question has been dodged everytime ive asked it


----------



## Skyval

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> A few other really important details:
> 
> 1. Why is the scroll wheel on the ambi still so far back? It makes it impossible to scroll with the middle finger.
> 2. From the picture you provided, it looks like the ridge protecting the ring finger from accidentally clicking the right button is not there anymore, which is obviously problematic.
> 3. What are the dimensions of the mouse? It's really important that it's no less than ~65mm width. This seems to be the best compromise between all hand sizes.


I think I agree about the scroll wheel being too far back, it isn't properly placed on any of my mice for my hand size in palm grip. But then again if it was in the proper place for palm grip it would probably be too far forward for fingertip. I don't know if there is a good position for all hand size and grip combinations. Especially considering my poor experiences with most mice's wheels, it makes me wonder if there are any reasonable alternatives









About the ridge, you mean like on the ergo model? I hated that thing. It was painful in fingertip grip. I've used mice without a ridge like that and didn't have any issue accidentally clicking the right button.

My favorite shape is the WMO. One thing that I like about it is that the edges are all rounded, including the front. I think that makes the mouse feel like it's longer than it really is, or at least prevents my overhanging fingers from resting on a "sharp" edge. It also lets me more or less rest my ring finger on the right side on top of my pinkie. Every other mouse I've used is too crowded there, so I have to put my ring finger on top.


----------



## wareya

Pure fingertip grip user here, the FM is short enough that forwards scroll wheels are 100% fine.

>About the ridge, you mean like on the ergo model? I hated that thing. It was painful in fingertip grip.

And it is literally the reason that the FM is the only mouse that doesn't hurt _my_ ring finger in fingertip grip. Every single other mouse does, making my skin dig into my fingernail.


----------



## Skyval

So I've read. I guess it's hard to make a shape that pleases everyone. IIRC Jude mentioned that's why they decided to make another shape in the first place.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skyval*
> 
> So I've read. I guess it's hard to make a shape that pleases everyone. IIRC Jude mentioned that's why they decided to make another shape in the first place.


At this point pour all the money into the internals and sell as it pcb "You out figure what to put it in."


----------



## cryptos9099

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> At this point pour all the money into the internals and sell as it pcb "You out figure what to put it in."


Sounds like a solid plan... Sell only a PCB with a Sensor, MCU, Diode(LED/Laser/etc), and Lens. Buyer buys switches, cable, and scroll wheel assembly. And Buyer has to fab their own shell that fits the PCB.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cryptos9099*
> 
> Sounds like a solid plan... Sell only a PCB with a Sensor, MCU, Diode(LED/Laser/etc), and Lens. Buyer buys switches, cable, and scroll wheel assembly. And Buyer has to fab their own shell that fits the PCB.


I was talking about just the mouse internals without a shell. Also I don't see why you would have to fab your own shell, when you can just pick out a shell that works for it.

I mean this idea is unrealistic pretty much, but it's not *THAT* bad.


----------



## cryptos9099

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> I was talking about just the mouse internals without a shell. Also I don't see why you would have to fab your own shell, when you can just pick out a shell that works for it.
> 
> I mean this idea is unrealistic pretty much, but it's not *THAT* bad.


Fabbing your own shell makes the PCB truly universal though. One-Size-Fits-All makes design easy and cheap along with having standardized specs means all the people with/access to 3D printers can print premade designs and not worry about having the right hole layout.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I don't understand how the ridge is giving you issues in fingertip grip...

I'm talking about this part:

that prevents the ring finger from clicking the right button accidentally when in palm grip. I can't see how that would affect a fingertip gripper.

Are you talking about the part that sticks out a bit to the side?

Because this part affects me in fingertip grip, but it does so positively. It gives my finger something to get under so I can lift the mouse easier.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

The ridge is one of my favorite things about the mouse. Comfy in palm grip.


----------



## Ino.

Those right side ridges are important, I hate not having that and my ring finger either clicking the button or getting in the gap between buttons and shell. That's something that I always disliked about the Kana/Sensei for example with their low front.


----------



## Skyval

It was the protrusion that I had an issue with. I tried to get used to it for a while, thinking that it might be useful for lifting like it is for others. But It "dug" into my fingers in a painful way, and it wasn't very useful for lifting. It's possible I could have adjusted my grip and gotten used to it given more time, but I was using the WMO at the time and couldn't see myself using the FM's shape over it, especially for how much the FM cost. I will mention I didn't have an issue with it in palm grip. Though I'm pretty sure I had to put my ringer finger on top, like I normally do.

If your'e just talking about the space between the button and the edge, then I didn't have a problem with that, though I haven't found anything like that necessary. Never had a problem misclicking or getting pinched with my WMO, for example. But I guess I wouldn't mind if it had a ridge like that.


----------



## Houser

When it will appear the next model of FM ?? And if anyone knows how much will be the length of it..

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## wareya

Other mice make me manhandle them painfully with the side of my ring finger in order to get a good grip on them. The FM lets me pick it up gently because of the overhang above my ring finger. Bonus: The upside down angle of it makes my skin get pushed _away_ from my fingernail, instead of towards it, preventing pain even if I _do_ have to manhandle it.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Probably a returned and used one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with sweatstains


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I hope you have disinfectant wipes


Mouse arrived opened covered in sweat stains. Got an advanced refund off Amazon. Will try it out in a bit









Edit: few points

-The shape is decent although lacks refinement and just has that OEM vibe through and through.
-Buttons are a touch soft for my liking but decent.
-Scroll is decent
-Weight is out of this world and is the saving grace of this mouse.
-Sensor performance is the same as other mice with the same sensor, It may be a touch more raw but most of the performance in snappiness seems to be a result of the weight for my feelz

Good mouse and can see why others like it. I think the castor will be more to my liking though.....but the weight....oh the weight!


----------



## LunaTiC123

Any chance for a revision of the ergo FM 2015 but with matte/rubber sides instead of glossy ?


----------



## wareya

they have problems to fix with the ergo model anyway so I'm sure it will be iterated on later


----------



## jung1e

There will be an early 2016 revision which will definitely change the side buttons last time I emailed them.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Yea the buttons will see a change. If anything else will is yet to be announced.


----------



## wareya

I really hope they improve the auto surface calibration algorithm, it's literally the reason I had to return the mouse. It was happening constantly and I literally lost tracking while using the mouse while it recalibrated.

They should make it only happen on DPI change or something, if they can't figure anything else out at all. "If your mouse isn't tracking, press the DPI button four times while moving it on your surface."


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I really hope they improve the auto surface calibration algorithm, it's literally the reason I had to return the mouse. It was happening constantly and I literally lost tracking while using the mouse while it recalibrated.
> 
> They should make it only happen on DPI change or something, if they can't figure anything else out at all. "If your mouse isn't tracking, press the DPI button four times while moving it on your surface."


Don't thunk i have ever heard of this specific issue.


----------



## wareya

I've seen a couple of other people post about it.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I've seen a couple of other people post about it.


This was an issue that was fixed with an SROM update a while ago. Dpi is always stable on the summer editions dating back to may.

I will have a lot of info coming soon on various things including the tournament ambi and the signature variation of it. I'm going to ask to post to our Facebook for a lot of these upcoming updates and let fellow OCN members spread any relevant info you guys deem fit.

Kind Regards
Jude


----------



## wareya

My issue was *not* a DPI issue. It was a tracking issue. The sensor recalibrated (causing it to hitch up and stop tracking for a moment) regularly on everything except for a specific hard black surface. Everything from my desk to paper, my mousepads, book covers, _other_ hard black surfaces. The only surface that did not cause it to recalibrate was the black back cardboard of a boardgame board. Yes, I had a Summer Edition. No, the couple people I was referring to were not talking about the DPI problem either, they were talking about calibration hitches.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> My issue was *not* a DPI issue. It was a tracking issue. The sensor recalibrated (causing it to hitch up and stop tracking for a moment) regularly on everything except for a specific hard black surface. Everything from my desk to paper, my mousepads, book covers, _other_ hard black surfaces. The only surface that did not cause it to recalibrate was the black back cardboard of a boardgame board. Yes, I had a Summer Edition. No, the couple people I was referring to were not talking about the DPI problem either, they were talking about calibration hitches.


Sounds like an illumination issue or a lens defect, or maybe even a wire defect . The sensor doesn't "auto calibrate " in the way you are describing. The imaging that happens on the sensor level happens via the dsp algorithms (and it's not so much Calibrating as it is creating a squal value for surfaces) and we have never seen this chipset lose tracking on compatible surfaces for any reason related to the sensor.

Mind you the way we set our 3310s variable framerate intervals and Max and min shutter values can certainly differentiate the z axis characteristics from another 3310. But for the most part any traditional gaming surface should not cause issues barring the hardware defects such as wire/lens/illumination led .

Kind regards
Jude


----------



## wareya

The sensor LED was perfectly bright, the lens wasn't scratched or dusty, and the wire couldn't have a general fault because the mouse's cosmetic LED remained lit. The only problems I can imagine causing anything like this, if it's not sensor calibration, are internal electronic defects, which are an even worse problem for FM to have.

This is not a z-axis issue. The mouse simply stopped tracking at random points in time, even times when the mouse was perfectly flat on the surface. Lifting seemed to be a trigger at some points in time, but it was not a requirement in any capacity.

I'm 100% positive that the surfaces I tested on are 3310 compatible because they work Perfectly Fine with the Kone Pure Military. However! If the KPM is misconfigured and has its own DPI bug happening (due to setting the lift distance calibration to a buggy value), the sensor will reliably stutter when it change DPI times too due to recalibration. On every single surface, even the black boardgame board.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> The sensor LED was perfectly bright, the lens wasn't scratched or dusty, and the wire couldn't have a general fault because the mouse's cosmetic LED remained lit. The only problems I can imagine causing anything like this, if it's not sensor calibration, are internal electronic defects, which are an even worse problem to have.


Unfortunately a consumer has no way of really knowing if the sensors LED or lens is free of any issues. The IR led quality isn't exactly measured off of brightness. Standard lens and sensor LED defect rates aren't trivial either...

But trust me there is no auto calibration that would cause this. If the imaging method and dsp had an underlying issue that caused loss of tracking it would happen to everyone. Unless of course you happen to be using very unique surfaces that simply aren't compatible .


----------



## qsxcv

for what it's worth, the fm mcu does read SQUAL register from the sensor in addition to the motion delta registers.

in older mice/sensors (e.g. 3090) the lift off distance can be controlled by the mcu by setting a minimum value for the SQUAL, as once you lifted it enough the image the sensor sees is blurred and the SQUAL value drops.
see: http://esreality.com/?a=post&id=2173191#pid2258792

while the 9800 family sensors, including 3310, do have sensor registers for configuring liftoff (address:0x2E), it is unknown whether the finalmouse uses this to set the liftoff or the old SQUAL method.

if it uses the SQUAL method (which i suspect it does... why else would the mcu read that register?), it's not unreasonable that the mcu does some "calibration" by analyzing the typical range of SQUAL values when the mouse is placed down in order to set the cutoff value more appropriately. probably this is why there was the weird fluctuating dpi issue which was supposedly fixed with the SE; if the cutoff SQUAL is set too high, valid data could get dropped whenever there's a dip in the SQUAL.

i could figure out what it's doing by sniffing spi data and comparing to mousetester again... but i dont find this very interesting


----------



## wareya

Is there any chance the sensor might give bad SQUAL data on surfaces that cause it to change exposure?


----------



## qsxcv

it's is an indication of how many feature there are in the image and if the image gets over/underexposed suddenly due to moving over a lighter or darker texture, it's possible the the SQUAL to drop below the threshold which would cause the mcu to think that it's lifted.

http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Avago%20PDFs/ADNS-3090.pdf
see pg26 for an example of how much squal fluctuates while moving


----------



## wareya

Well it still doesn't explain why it happened on my one black mousepad but it's a start.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> for what it's worth, the fm mcu does read SQUAL register from the sensor in addition to the motion delta registers.
> 
> in older mice/sensors (e.g. 3090) the lift off distance can be controlled by the mcu by setting a minimum value for the SQUAL, as once you lifted it enough the image the sensor sees is blurred and the SQUAL value drops.
> see: http://esreality.com/?a=post&id=2173191#pid2258792
> 
> while the 9800 family sensors, including 3310, do have sensor registers for configuring liftoff (address:0x2E), it is unknown whether the finalmouse uses this to set the liftoff or the old SQUAL method.
> 
> if it uses the SQUAL method (which i suspect it does... why else would the mcu read that register?), it's not unreasonable that the mcu does some "calibration" by analyzing the typical range of SQUAL values when the mouse is placed down in order to set the cutoff value more appropriately. probably this is why there was the weird fluctuating dpi issue which was supposedly fixed with the SE; if the cutoff SQUAL is set too high, valid data could get dropped whenever there's a dip in the SQUAL.


There may be an alternate universe where I make public everything we write to the registers, our reasoning behind them, and the like.... But we unfortunately aren't in that universe. Heh

One thing I have followed closely however is there was a thread discussing initial motion count "speed". For the record a mouse with 10 times the framerate is of course going to count initial motion first. But there are many noticeable advantages a variable framerate has which are most definitely not as trivial.







I for one would not prefer imaging a slow speed area at the same rate I would a fast one. There are simply not enough different changes in the surface image.

And to answer your question regarding whether we are moving to another sensor in the future... We really like he control the 3310 offers to us. Being able to clean the data through the shutters, the upper and lower bounds of the frame, and the DSP with the current srom is just really nice.

It would take something completely new that we would have to validate to be "better" and I quote better because at this point more abstract characteristics in relation to how a cursor feels to the user is trumping the spec sheets. It just simply isn't 2003 anymore. So we are focusing on other areas of tech at the moment.

We scrapped a couple already including adjustable sensor position, gyro angle control, etc.... But we do have a couple things we are excited about...


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> There may be an alternate universe where I make public everything we write to the registers, our reasoning behind them, and the like.... But we unfortunately aren't in that universe. Heh


i could just do what i did with logitech's 3366 mice and get that data myself and dump the register values, srom, and whatever else here but it's not really interesting as i have no other 3310 mice.

and i was asking about 3320


----------



## qsxcv

^ nop
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> One thing I have followed closely however is there was a thread discussing initial motion count "speed". For the record a mouse with 10 times the framerate is of course going to count initial motion first. But there are many noticeable advantages a variable framerate has which are most definitely not as trivial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I for one would not prefer imaging a slow speed area at the same rate I would a fast one. There are simply not enough different changes in the surface image.


have you followed this discussion:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/240#post_24332243

this isn't due to framerate. it's due to smoothing. for the finalmouse it's both from the sensor and the mcu processing
Quote:


> And to answer your question regarding whether we are moving to another sensor in the future... We really like he control the 3310 offers to us. Being able to *clean the data through the shutters, the upper and lower bounds of the frame*, and the DSP with the current srom is just really nice.


so can 3988, which is similar to 3310 but the qfn package makes pcb design much more annoying I guess.
and 3320, which you guys should have access to. the azio exo1, which looks to me like it comes from the same factory/odm you guys use or used has it.
and then there's the public 3366 but who knows when it will go public

idk what you're saying exactly, but all the newer gaming sensors from pixart offer a similar level of configurability
bold part: the way you're talking sounds really silly to anyone who has any clue about what those registers do. if you dont understand, dont pretend to. i've had enough of that from mcu count processing discussion
Quote:


> It would take something completely new that we would have to validate to be "better" and I quote better because at this point more abstract characteristics in relation to how a cursor feels to the user is trumping the spec sheets. It just simply isn't 2003 anymore. So we are focusing on other areas of tech at the moment.


pmw3320: other than the malfunction speed around 2.5-3m/s, the am010 (i.e. logitech's exclusive version) has been pretty well received by the community I think. the azio exo1 already beats finalmouse in the responsiveness comparison linked above, even though it has the same mcu smoothing/filtering as finalmouse
Quote:


> We scrapped a couple already including adjustable sensor position, gyro angle control, etc.... But we do have a couple things we are excited about...


i'd like a way to flash my own firmware onto a mouse. just make if so that if you do, the warranty is voided, so that you guys don't have to give support to anyone who bricks the mouse using it.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> There may be an alternate universe where I make public everything we write to the registers, our reasoning behind them, and the like.... But we unfortunately aren't in that universe. Heh
> 
> One thing I have followed closely however is there was a thread discussing initial motion count "speed". For the record a mouse with 10 times the framerate is of course going to count initial motion first. But there are many noticeable advantages a variable framerate has which are most definitely not as trivial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I for one would not prefer imaging a slow speed area at the same rate I would a fast one. There are simply not enough different changes in the surface image.
> 
> And to answer your question regarding whether we are moving to another sensor in the future... We really like he control the 3310 offers to us. Being able to clean the data through the shutters, the upper and lower bounds of the frame, and the DSP with the current srom is just really nice.
> 
> It would take something completely new that we would have to validate to be "better" and I quote better because at this point more abstract characteristics in relation to how a cursor feels to the user is trumping the spec sheets. It just simply isn't 2003 anymore. So we are focusing on other areas of tech at the moment.
> 
> We scrapped a couple already including adjustable sensor position, gyro angle control, etc.... But we do have a couple things we are excited about...


Most important aspect of a sensor is consistency, not having a constant frame rate causes variation to the sensor movement delay and that really messes up with sophisticated muscle memory. I can't turn myself on in aim -maps with FM2015 SE like I can with any other mice when I adjust myself to them. For high level players having a good angle control most of the aiming is only very short "corrections" not long flicks. I am not entirely sure what makes the movement delay inconsistent but you should really fix that before calling this mouse a professional choice..


----------



## treav0r

wasn't it supposed to be restocked today?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Most important aspect of a sensor is consistency, not having a constant frame rate causes variation to the sensor movement delay and that really messes up with sophisticated muscle memory. I can't turn myself on in aim -maps with FM2015 SE like I can with any other mice when I adjust myself to them. For high level players having a good angle control most of the aiming is only very short "corrections" not long flicks. I am not entirely sure what makes the movement delay inconsistent but you should really fix that before calling this mouse a professional choice..


i think thats more related to 3310variance


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> wasn't it supposed to be restocked today?


It is, 10-12 jude said. Then roughly the 10th is what support told me.


----------



## MasterOfMC

This waiting is frustrating.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterOfMC*
> 
> This waiting is frustrating.


Their Twitter said they should be in stock in the next few days, that was posted on sept 9th. No clue what's taking so long. Lol


----------



## nthoang1293

My SE Finalmouse just died today, exactly 3 months after I received it as a replacement for the 1st one which also died after 3 months of use. This SE Finalmouse sensor is gone but the clicks, LED and scrollwheel still work (as if they still matter anyway).
If I ask for a replacement now would it die too in 3 months?
This is absurd for a product that I liked so much

//False alarm, its working just fine


----------



## gujukal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> My SE Finalmouse just died today, exactly 3 months after I received it as a replacement for the 1st one which also died after 3 months of use. This SE Finalmouse sensor is gone but the clicks, LED and scrollwheel still work (as if they still matter anyway).
> If I ask for a replacement now would it die too in 3 months?
> This is absurd for a product that I liked so much


Thats bad news, i bought mine from a private person brand new. Hope the warranty still applies if it break :/


----------



## doors1991

i wanted to buy one,not sure now.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I want to buy one but Amazon isnt selling


----------



## bond10

Any ETA on the ambi dextrous version?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Any ETA on the ambi dextrous version?


They said by the holidays so probably Thanksgiving or Xmas


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> My SE Finalmouse just died today, exactly 3 months after I received it as a replacement for the 1st one which also died after 3 months of use. This SE Finalmouse sensor is gone but the clicks, LED and scrollwheel still work (as if they still matter anyway).
> If I ask for a replacement now would it die too in 3 months?
> This is absurd for a product that I liked so much


3 year warranty. Just get that thing replaced. I know they are having some QC issues in their first year. HOWEVER at least they own up to that with the warranty & take care of the customer. I'd say stick around especially if you like it.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nthoang1293*
> 
> My SE Finalmouse just died today, exactly 3 months after I received it as a replacement for the 1st one which also died after 3 months of use. This SE Finalmouse sensor is gone but the clicks, LED and scrollwheel still work (as if they still matter anyway).
> If I ask for a replacement now would it die too in 3 months?
> This is absurd for a product that I liked so much


Hello Nthoang,

This issue should not occur with the SE version. If you can email support they will absolutely resolve the issue.... that being said I would actually like to know if your mouse has a stickered or stickerless bottom... as Im curious whether you got an SE version or not. THe problem you are describing did occur in some of the older batches but I have never seen it pop up with an SE.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> There may be an alternate universe where I make public everything we write to the registers, our reasoning behind them, and the like.... But we unfortunately aren't in that universe. Heh


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i could just do what i did with logitech's 3366 mice and get that data myself and dump the register values, srom, and whatever else here but it's not really interesting as i have no other 3310 mice.


here i did it for ya
summary with comments: http://pastebin.com/vfdHU9sk
same with corresponding data and timing: http://pastebin.com/8LLBQrVZ
raw log: http://pastebin.com/uT9AvijM

tl;dr: srom id is 0x0f. idk if that's the latest version as i have no other 3310 mice. only non standard/default thing finalmouse does in the sensor configuration is set the maximum shutter time to 328us. which doesn't affect anything as it's just a conservative value (even when i raise the mouse 5mm up from a mousepad the led's pwm width is only 100us). this is not a bad thing or unexpected thing since there's nothing wrong with the default/automatic values
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We really like he control the 3310 offers to us. Being able to clean the data through the shutters, the upper and lower bounds of the frame, and the DSP with the current srom is just really nice.


well good job on regurgitating words from the datasheet and describing things in a nonsensical manner. your, or should i say E-Signal's, firmware doesn't even touch the frame period registers. not that you need to, but it just shows how unfamiliar you are with these things. idk why you act like you guys do something special.
oh and what ever happened to the "special lens" discussion?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> In our case we are using a different ADNS lens kit. I will not be revealing the name of the lens kit since it is a "secret sauce" in a way.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> The Picture you have posted clearly shows the ADNS-2220-001 and the lens itself looks the same as ADNS-2120-001, dont get me wrong, i am not trying to bash you or anything but this doesnt match what you have stated, if the Factory has told you that this is "something special", well, then you can blame them.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Their Twitter said they should be in stock in the next few days, that was posted on sept 9th. No clue what's taking so long. Lol


Hello,

I believe we are now just waiting on each retail site to sort the inventory. I'm not too familiar but each regions Amazon may take different lengths of time to sort new inventory and update everything.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> They said by the holidays so probably Thanksgiving or Xmas


Things are looking optimistic so I would say thanksgiving is very likely. I am personally working on the industrial design process and I can say tooling has gone well and mould sets have been made. Overall Im very happy with the quality of the design. Same weight as the classic FM but for sure has a better feeling of polish. Once final mould adjustments are made things should be ready to go. There is however a second signature version of the ambi that will not be released until maybe closer to christmas. Not sure about that one yet.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Yea the buttons will see a change. If anything else will is yet to be announced.


The 2016 classic ergo changes have not been set in stone, nothing is confirmed. Frankly we have been putting alot of focus into the ambi and ambi signature.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> tl;dr: srom id is 0x0f. idk if that's the latest version as i have no other 3310 mice. only non standard/default thing finalmouse does in the sensor configuration is set the maximum shutter time to 328us. which doesn't affect anything as it's just a conservative value (even when i raise the mouse 5mm up from a mousepad the led's pwm width is only 100us). this is not a bad thing or unexpected thing since there's nothing wrong with the default/automatic values...


SROM is most up to date. Shutter values if I remember correctly effect frame rate functions in both auto/manual configurations. also i remember seeing large variances between shutter values on different surfaces.. id have to get clarification on the specific values you mentioned since i dont deal with this. And also I have no idea how you interpreted all the SPI comms and whether those are accurate values . Also illumination WAS changed (in a subtle way) even from the original to the SE, but its not anything substantial as a different lens. Although we did play around with different LED's at one point. But that was a long time ago and never anything we capitalized on to market with with production batches. Method of limiting diffuse,angle/ alignment, LED... all do play a big role... and we are actually playing around with those again now. Will reveal anything that seems exciting. And yes I'm pretty sure we used some stock firmware base to start with. I even mentioned this before I believe. Iirc was quite nice to have since the new generation holteks were pretty decent controllers.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> or should i say E-Signal's, firmware


lol nice find


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

What's the difference between the Ambi and Signature Ambi?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> What's the difference between the Ambi and Signature Ambi?


Cosmetic differences mainly as well as component differences. Signature versions will be a good way of getting different tastes and flavors of a shape without releasing completely new mice. So some signature versions may have huanos switches, some maybe different Teflon configurations, etc... Each one depends on the individual on whom the signature was designed for/by.


----------



## wareya

won't even say something like "we licensed their firmware as a starting point and have built on it since then"


----------



## Agenesis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> here i did it for ya
> summary with comments: http://pastebin.com/vfdHU9sk
> same with corresponding data and timing: http://pastebin.com/8LLBQrVZ
> raw log: http://pastebin.com/uT9AvijM
> 
> tl;dr: srom id is 0x0f. idk if that's the latest version as i have no other 3310 mice. only non standard/default thing finalmouse does in the sensor configuration is set the maximum shutter time to 328us. which doesn't affect anything as it's just a conservative value (even when i raise the mouse 5mm up from a mousepad the led's pwm width is only 100us). this is not a bad thing or unexpected thing since there's nothing wrong with the default/automatic values
> well good job on regurgitating words from the datasheet and describing things in a nonsensical manner. your, or should i say E-Signal's, firmware doesn't even touch the frame period registers. not that you need to, but it just shows how unfamiliar you are with these things. idk why you act like you guys do something special.
> oh and what ever happened to the "special lens" discussion?


Wow good post. So it's just a regular sensor/lens with factory firmware inside the shell of a $10 mouse. Had they restocked earlier I would've missed your post and wasted money.


----------



## qsxcv

doubt that some other companies (mionix, zowie) are much different. but at least finalmouse's button latency isnt an issue and tracking variance/accel seems good, at least for my fmse.

there's nothing glaringly bad about the factory firmware except for the mcu smoothing perhaps, but i just hate how they talk in a way that suggests they put a lot of work into getting the technical details right. probably for the purpose of justifying the insane pricing.
also [email protected]"japanese made omron switches" with "10 million click lifetime" on the website. oh wait they're actually standard chinese d2fc-f-7n with 5m rated lifetime.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Agenesis*
> 
> Wow good post. So it's just a regular sensor/lens with factory firmware inside the shell of a $10 mouse. Had they restocked earlier I would've missed your post and wasted money.


Yeah don't buy this mouse, I was giving these guys some slack early on. The build quality is bordering on junk, and the technical-false speak is off the charts.

I have had the Mionix Naos 7000 and now their new Castor mouse. The Naos was about half the price of the FinalMouse, and Castor was cheaper as well. Every aspect of them is better and the castor is of very similar shape/weight to the FinalMouse. I also have the Zowie FK2, which is better as well, except I don't like the firmer switches.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> doubt that some other companies (mionix, zowie) are much different. but at least finalmouse's button latency isnt an issue and tracking variance/accel seems good, at least for my fmse.
> 
> there's nothing glaringly bad about the factory firmware except for the mcu smoothing perhaps, but i just hate how they talk in a way that suggests they put a lot of work into getting the technical details right. probably for the purpose of justifying the insane pricing.
> also [email protected]"japanese made omron switches" with "10 million click lifetime" on the website. oh wait they're actually standard chinese d2fc-f-7n with 5m rated lifetime.


I don't ever recall you saying if you personally feel the mouse is worth it. The humbo jumbo they use on their site i have no issue with, plenty of others do it too. Over done as usual. However what is your opinion on the mouse(despite the price which i dislike as most do. Also despite the technical things you dislike as well, does it still hold up solidly in your eyes?).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> Yeah don't buy this mouse, I was giving these guys some slack early on. The build quality is bordering on junk, and the technical-false speak is off the charts.
> 
> I have had the Mionix Naos 7000 and now their new Castor mouse. The Naos was about half the price of the FinalMouse, and Castor was cheaper as well. Every aspect of them is better and the castor is of very similar shape/weight to the FinalMouse. I also have the Zowie FK2, which is better as well, except I don't like the firmer switches.


Early on? It hasn't even been a year since the FM released. Sure they have some issues but they could vary well clean those up soon enough.

The mouse has it's doubters & believers. So far it looks as if the doubting & disliking individuals are outweighed. That has to count for something.


----------



## qsxcv

honestly i dont like to start controversy or drama but after seeing so many comments both here and elsewhere that praise the tracking and imply that fm have a particularly good sensor due to their own efforts, it feels irresponsible to not share what i know. for what it's worth, i think the tracking is decent and possibly better than some other companies' 3310 implementation, but for sure not spectacularly better than its competition as to justify the pricetag as some believe or are led to believe. and then there's the shoddy internal soldering and build quality, crappy side switches, and also the weird plastic smell that never seems to go away :d


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> honestly i dont like to start controversy or drama but after seeing so many comments both here and elsewhere that praise the tracking and imply that fm have a particularly good sensor due to their own efforts, it feels irresponsible to not share what i know. for what it's worth, i think the tracking is decent and possibly better than some other companies' 3310 implementation, but for sure not spectacularly better than its competition as to justify the pricetag as some believe or are led to believe. and then there's the shoddy internal soldering and build quality, crappy side switches, and also the weird plastic smell that never seems to go away :d


Keep the honesty coming i like it. Weird plastic smell? what in the hell? Lol


----------



## qsxcv

well there are some other things that i don't want to discuss publically yet, in hopes that their next products will actually be worthy of the hype. but that won't happen as long as we are content with the flaws and compromises of the current fm: only 4 dpi settings, 500hz (we've had this discussion before. and in hindsight, i don't believe a single one of the arguments for 500hz), mcu smoothing (i, for one, am convinced that it achieves nothing good), unstable motion burst read timings (not an issue right now but means the firmware isnt carefully coded and may have issues doing 1000hz usb reports)


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

I have read the discussions plenty sincenineas here for them. I personally am not too keen on how they feel up against each other. I am unable to personally tell. I do understand what 1000 vs 500 does though.

I am more into your opinion of if you feel the mouse is worth it flaws & all cause we know they have em. As does every company. They do seem to be trying(at least it seems).

That's my interest really, i personally like the current FM. The shape is not my fav but the weight makes up for it. Sensor is in my top 3 currently. The technical stuff you get into isn't my thing so i'm strictly off of feel. Lol


----------



## wareya

>and in hindsight, i don't believe a single one of the arguments for 500hz

How about "they don't want to put a more powerful microcontroller on their first mouse"?

Of course they would never say that because it's anti-marketing, but it's perfectly viable imo since the 0.5ms of latency (actually more because their smoothing sucks) is actually negligible to a majority of people

(say, maybe getting the smoothing wrong between the two test cases is the reason that their A/B sanity test didn't show any serious faults with 500hz?)

I'm fine with it being locked at 500 if that's what can be handled by the actual hardware that they're willing to use in their first product, but if they keep it that way it starts getting cruddy

1000hz is actually worse for mouse acceleration implementations that don't use smoothed values to calculate acceleration factor (i.e. worse for all of them)


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> I am more into your opinion of if you feel the mouse is worth it


no. the only things going for it are the weight and possibly the shape, depending on what you like.


----------



## wareya

open source mouse project when
something you can make out of scavenged parts


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >and in hindsight, i don't believe a single one of the arguments for 500hz
> 
> How about "they don't want to put a more powerful microcontroller on their first mouse"?


mlt04 can do 1000hz
my 8mhz teensy 2.0 can do 1000hz
i'm sure whatever mcu they use can as well, with the right firmware
Quote:


> 1000hz is actually worse for mouse acceleration implementations that don't use smoothed values to calculate acceleration factor (i.e. worse for all of them)


well for source games at least, i think the accel scaling is applied to the total delta during each frame, so actually 1000hz would be more consistent? not sure about other games/stuff
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> open source mouse project when
> something you can make out of scavenged parts


got too lazy to finish my 3366+teensy+g100s








ill continue it someday i guess


----------



## wareya

>i'm sure whatever mcu they use can as well, with the right firmware

nice

>well for source games at least, i think the accel scaling is applied to the total delta during each frame, so actually 1000hz would be more consistent? not sure about other games/stuff

true, but that's actually a flaw unless you have a 100% consistent framerate of 500/333/250/200/etc because the power of the acceleration will change from frame to frame depending on how many samples get caught. going from 90fps to 60fps for example is absolutely disasterous


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> true, but that's actually a flaw unless you have a 100% consistent framerate of 500/333/250/200/etc because the power of the acceleration will change from frame to frame depending on how many samples get caught. going from 90fps to 60fps for example is absolutely disasterous


yup yet somehow swag plays csgo fine with it even though he caps fps to 300 and it regularly dips, at least last time i checked his stream. a lot of technical things end up not really mattering in practice, but imo that's not an excuse for not getting them right


----------



## wareya

indeed

a low enough acceleration curve would still feel fine anyway. I can only get mine in quake 3 to reach like 2.5x my base sensitivity

I wonder why no games do acceleration which starts at one sensitivity but infinitely smoothly approaches another sens. I've seen threshholding, which is more like a crude and nonsmooth way to do this.

the math is simple enough:
(0.5x*(1/(x/4+1)))+
(2x*(1-(1/(x/4+1))))

substitute 0.5 for base sens, 2 for approached sens, and 4 for the velocity where the sensitivities cross (linear with dpi for real speed or however that idea is expressed)

actually "where the sensitivities cross" is strictly different depending on what you plug in when you look at the derivative, but in terms of the mixing that's where it's 0.5x * 0.5 + 2x + 0.5. My calculator says the derivative of 4x*(1/(x/2+1)) at x=2 is 1. adding the second sensitivity makes things more complicated so I can't be bothered to figure out where the true halfway point between the sensitivities is

this is literally the only place i've ever used derivatives, trying to understand different mouse acceleration functions

going to stop posting for off-topic


----------



## qsxcv

pretty sure what you actually want there is not the derivative but simply that function divided by x
i.e.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+%280.5*%281%2F%28x%2F4%2B1%29%29%29%2B+%282*%281-%281%2F%28x%2F4%2B1%29%29%29%29+from+0+to+20

in which case the halfway point is exactly at x=4


----------



## wareya

nice


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> got too lazy to finish my 3366+teensy+g100s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ill continue it someday i guess


Will it ever be on sale? xD


----------



## qsxcv

no but if i ever do finish it i'll post instructions + my code. i'm not entirely sure that it all even fits into the g100s shell yet. and you'll need to do some pretty fine soldering.


----------



## wareya

ive had to solder my DA back together several times so I am perfectly okay with that


----------



## qsxcv

http://www.overclock.net/t/1561041/reverse-engineering-3366/130#post_24158496 (lets discuss in this thread)

most difficult part is soldering this
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0/609-4309-1-ND
to
https://www.adafruit.com/products/1325
it's not too hard... just need flux and some youtube vids


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

T_T


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Damn it still isn't in stock? Lol they posted on the 9th that they should be available anyday. It shouldn't take 6+ days to sort & restock, seriously.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Damn it still isn't in stock? Lol they posted on the 9th that they should be available anyday. It shouldn't take 6+ days to sort & restock, seriously.


I wouldn't be surprised if amazon is wary of this mouse given the return rate and build quality.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if amazon is wary of this mouse given the return rate and build quality.


No idea if the return rate is high. So i'm unable to speak on that.

https://mobile.twitter.com/finalmouse/status/644005528448958464


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Still unavailable on Amazon NA


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Still unavailable on Amazon NA


Tweet on their page says the next 24 hours for the US.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Tweet on their page says the next 24 hours for the US.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

lol at the desperate suckers people buying these used off ebay currently


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> lol at the desperate suckers people buying these used off ebay currently


I think you would be desperate too if your mouse was doing this to your hand:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!




My hand is getting quite messed up from my G303


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

I don't even....


----------



## mksteez

Still none in stock.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Can you guys stop typing in tiny letters ._.

I don't have many of the flaws other people have. But all my 3 FMs have varied pretty significantly. Though any flaws my FM SE has are minor in comparison to how much better than other mice the sensor performs.

The only others in its league are the MLT04, which many people can't use because of malfunction speed or problems getting 500hz. And the DA2013, which has a much worse shape and weight.

Of course I agree that there is significant room for improvement though.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> something that I always disliked about the Kana/Sensei for example with their low front.


Same. Made them unusable for me.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It really really depends on the exact materials being used.
> 
> The textured plastic on the IMO 1.1 gave me nothing but problems, and essentially made the mouse unuseable for me. But the textured plastic on the Aurora was perfect for sweaty or dry. But it also has to do with the outward slant of the 1.1 sides that didn't provide any grip.
> 
> Equally, there are rubberized coatings which are terrible for sweaty or dry, and there are some which are great for one or both.
> 
> A few other really important details:
> 
> 1. Why is the scroll wheel on the ambi still so far back? It makes it impossible to scroll with the middle finger.
> 2. From the picture you provided, it looks like the ridge protecting the ring finger from accidentally clicking the right button is not there anymore, which is obviously problematic.
> 3. What are the dimensions of the mouse? It's really important that it's no less than ~65mm width. This seems to be the best compromise between all hand sizes.


I'm pretty disappointed that this is being ignored by Jude.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

What about the width? You personally might be ok with whatever you currently have, but it's a make or break deal for many people. Tons of recent mice have been following a really problematic trend of being so thin that they cause cramping in palm grip.

While the middle scroll may not be a problem for you due to your specific grip and/or useage, it DOES prevent many of us from scrolling it with our middle finger. This is necessary for those of us who play games where we need to use the scroll wheel to jump. Being able to scroll with the middle finger lets us keep our index on the trigger so we can jump and shoot at the same time.

Regarding the missing ridge, I can see how because of the curvature of the button it would reduce any misclicks, but it would also vary from how individuals gripped the mouse. I disagree with the removal, but we'll see how big of an issue it is in practice. The only person who complained about it was referring to the part that stuck out to the side.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Rest assured wheel placement was tested with many different hands and grips not just my own. I've personally spent the majority of the past several months on the ambi design (it's basically all I really do) so things such as width, wheel placement, overall shape... We made sure each of these was considered for a large average of some of the most common grips. We had some of our pros test it, etc.. you name it we did it. It can be palmed easily with one finger on each of the clicks, or even two fingers on one click with a third on another. A lot of CS players use these sorts of varying palm grips since they are low sens gamers so we made sure this suited that perfectly.

And if you are a high sens player clawing or fingertipping is not an issue either . I hate saying that the shape will be great for "everyone" but I can definitely say it will have a way wider audience than the original.

It's not too thin. I'm gonna refrain from giving specific measurements because measurements don't really tell the whole story of a shape.

-Jude


----------



## rpalmer92

Great! When's the release (roughly)?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

>Rest assured wheel placement was tested with many different hands and grips not just my own.

Yeah, I'm sure every mouse is. But every mouse still has flaws. The vast majority of mice have these far back wheels. Probably because not that many people use it to jump, and people who do use it to jump just use the index finger - which I do too, but only because the wheels are too far back to do otherwise.


----------



## qsxcv

maxkohler have you ever considered whether it's simply that your hands are larger than average?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Yes, my hands definitely are larger than average. But I never had this problem till recently. And my friends with smaller hands also agree, and other people on these forums and on youtube have agreed.

Pretty much all mice used to be around 65mm width. Now they're almost all well below 60.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Though any flaws my FM SE has are minor in comparison to how much better than other mice the sensor performs.
> 
> The only others in its league are the MLT04


staaaaaaaaaaaaaawp


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Yes, my hands definitely are larger than average. But I never had this problem till recently. And my friends with smaller hands also agree, and other people on these forums and on youtube have agreed.
> 
> Pretty much all mice used to be around 65mm width. Now they're almost all well below 60.


I concur. The Rival and the G502 both cramped my hands because they're too thin. However, I don't have problems with small mice like the kinzu.


----------



## Soo8

Has anyone bought the FM from the uk amazon and shipped to an eastern European country? How much did the shipping cost? Get back at me on PM.

Anyway, I hope the ambi version comes out without any weird design choices. My FK2 is really raping my hand by now because of the little width it has in the middle. Though the kinzu doesn't bring me any problems. Weird stuff man.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> It's hard for me to answer these concerns because you really have to feel the ambi to understand that none of these things are concerns. I've actually replaced the original with the ambi as my dailymouse and the scroll wheel Is no issue. I'm honestly at a loss for words on how to describe why the finger ridge thing isn't an issue either.
> 
> Maybe if you can give me a week or so I can try and get authority to release a video sneak peak to give you guys an idea of the shape.
> 
> Also there was a big backup at the truck docks for the retailer


I see, replaced as your daily huh, sounds good. I plan to give it a run when it drops, i've become quite fond of ambi mice lately.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> staaaaaaaaaaaaaawp


Max has his opinion you have yours.


----------



## wareya

if that sticking out part making up the ring finger ridge disappears on the next ergo I'm going to riot

EDIT: The DA 3.5g is like 60 millimeters from thumb to pinky. and yet that's still too wide for me. another problem is the mouse is way too tall, so I can't aim down in fingertip grip without literally turning into a claw grip. in return i have to hold the mouse forwards by default which reduces my ability to aim up, forcing me to raise my sensitivity or use accel


----------



## nthoang1293

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Nthoang,
> 
> This issue should not occur with the SE version. If you can email support they will absolutely resolve the issue.... that being said I would actually like to know if your mouse has a stickered or stickerless bottom... as Im curious whether you got an SE version or not. THe problem you are describing did occur in some of the older batches but I have never seen it pop up with an SE.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Hi,
Sorry that was a false alarm. It actually stopped responding for half an hour. I tried restarting my laptop, plugged it into 2 other laptops, same thing. Then I waited a while and it's working fine now.
I just posted the comment so quick because right when it happened I thought "here we go again". I'll go edit the comment to make sure people don't get mislead.
Been loving it so far


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> if that sticking out part making up the ring finger ridge disappears on the next ergo I'm going to riot
> 
> EDIT: The DA 3.5g is like 60 millimeters from thumb to pinky. and yet that's still too wide for me. another problem is the mouse is way too tall, so I can't aim down in fingertip grip without literally turning into a claw grip. in return i have to hold the mouse forwards by default which reduces my ability to aim up, forcing me to raise my sensitivity or use accel


DA is a unique shape though. It gets significantly wider in the back half. The rival did the same thing and thus the thinness of the front caused bad cramping for many of us, while the wideness of the rear was too wide for many people.

DA 3.5G: 3500dpi. s3888. 127mm (Length) x *70mm (Width)* x 44mm (Height). 110g w/o cable, 148g w/cable. 3.5mm LOD.

The DA forces certain grips, and makes you hold it strangely, and also is tailored to specific hand sizes. The shape is unusable for me.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

If anyone is trying to order, it is is up! go crazy.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> If anyone is trying to order, it is is up! go crazy.


About to order it but inquiring about the 1000hz optional firmware atm.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> About to order it but inquiring about the 1000hz optional firmware atm.


If you have prime maybe wait. Apparently it says it's eligible for prime delivery but it needs more time?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We are working really hard to have the mouse out in time for the holidays. There is a chance it could even be ready sooner since so far we have made great headway.
> 
> And also we managed to incorporate a really nice grainy plastic for the side that also manages to look very aesthetically pleasing. Ill post this sneak peek image but this will be the last photo I can put up before the final announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Finalmouse Jude


Based on the picture, I don't like the side buttons' position and shape. Also, the scroll wheel looks too far back.

It's great that the shape is similar to this:



Hopefully, there isn't any unnecessary flex to the button piece.

How about making a PMW-3320 version of this symmetrical shape, with a better MCU, with the standard lens, configurable, Logitech like debounce and removing the MCU filtering?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> How about making a PMW-3320 version of this symmetrical shape, with a better MCU, with the standard lens, configurable, Logitech like debounce and removing the MCU filtering?


How about making a PMW-332066 version of this symmetrical shape, with a better MCU, with the standard lens, configurable, Logitech like debounce and removing the MCU filtering?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Why should they bother to do that when their 3310 already performs better than any 3366 mouse in arguably the most important way(s).

For all we know Skylit's statement of "the 3366 has the most advanced architecture" could be mainly based on the high DPI levels. Which may be technically advanced, but entirely useless to 99.9% of end users.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> arguably the most important way(s).


because your opinion is obviously the most important measure of performance

also
http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/200_100#post_24332362


----------



## 7onoff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Why should they bother to do that when their 3310 already performs better than any 3366 mouse in arguably the most important way(s).
> 
> For all we know Skylit's statement of "the 3366 has the most advanced architecture" could be mainly based on the high DPI levels. Which may be technically advanced, but entirely useless to 99.9% of end users.


Its not funny anymore. 3366 has better responce time, less variance, better malfunction speed. Only benefit of 3310 is a cheaper price. Thats all. So why 3310 is better?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> For all we know Skylit's statement of "the 3366 has the most advanced architecture" could be mainly based on the high DPI levels.


sensor array resolution (36x36 vs 30x30)
~12000 framerate vs ~7000 on 3310 and ~12500 on 3988
~8m/s malfunction speed
surface compatibility
low lod
integrated illumination means harder for companies/odms to screw up the illumination aspects of the implementation
lower variance
no smoothing
Quote:


> Which may be technically advanced, but entirely useless to 99.9% of end users.


true


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7onoff*
> 
> Its not funny anymore. 3366 has better responce time, less variance, better malfunction speed. Only benefit of 3310 is a cheaper price. Thats all. So why 3310 is better?


Because he likes how the cursor feels. It has nothing to do with performance. It's about the smoothness caused by the MCU filtering. Same goes for Dazed, Steel, Adren and Moe.

Funny how the people I mentioned don't have very good aim, relative to other top players, when they use/used the FinalMouse.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It's about the smoothness


which is weird because the 3366 tracks very very smoothly as well


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> which is weird because the 3366 tracks very very smoothly as well


The 3366 feels more "edgy." More so when moving at slow speeds.

I haven't used a FinalMouse yet. I can only assume, based off the graphs, that it feels more floaty/smooth than a 3366. Kind of like going from 30 FPS to 60 FPS.

By the way, I think FinalMouse uses MCU filtering because it would make the MouseTester graphs look amazing compared to other mice. At the time we had an inaccurate understanding of the information, therefore could be fooled easily.


----------



## Eutheran

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Because he likes how the cursor feels. It has nothing to do with performance. It's about the smoothness caused by the MCU filtering. Same goes for Dazed, Steel, Adren and Moe.
> 
> Funny how the people I mentioned don't have very good aim, relative to other top players, when they use/used the FinalMouse.


Scream also uses the finalmouse


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eutheran*
> 
> Scream also uses the finalmouse


I forgot about him. However, I haven't seen him play a game with the FinalMouse. I didn't ask him if he was using it in matches and I have yet to see him use it at LANs.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> because your opinion is obviously the most important measure of performance
> 
> also
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/200_100#post_24332362


No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the factor that makes the mouse feel accurate in game. Like we've been over before, it's far from just my opinion. There is wide consensus around this among people who've used the MLT04 and FM. It's agreed they are significantly more accurate in game than practically any other mouse.

That link showing responsiveness is one small component. When testing things ingame we get a complete view of how the mouse functions in the real world, comparatively to other mice.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7onoff*
> 
> Its not funny anymore. 3366 has better responce time, less variance, better malfunction speed. Only benefit of 3310 is a cheaper price. Thats all. So why 3310 is better?


All those things you listed vary between mice that have the same sensor. Saying the 3366 is better at all those things than the 3310 is a misunderstanding of how mice work.

Sensor is one factor, but not the whole picture. And most people who hail the 3366 as "the best" don't seem to understand that.

Price is also important.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> sensor array resolution (36x36 vs 30x30)
> ~12000 framerate vs ~7000 on 3310 and ~12500 on 3988
> ~8m/s malfunction speed
> surface compatibility
> low lod
> integrated illumination means harder for companies/odms to screw up the illumination aspects of the implementation
> lower variance
> no smoothing
> true


Do we even have evidence that a larger sensor array is better? I think I can actually tell that the FM's array is larger (smaller pixels) than the MLT04's, and I think it might be a bad thing in some ways. What it's good for is giving higher native resolutions, but there are pros and cons to that.

*Higher framerate* - yes, but I believe that Skylit or someone like that actually said higher framerate isn't necessarily better, but that the ratio of framerate to buffer(?) is more important, or something like that.
*Malfunction speed* - yes, that's one of the things that is mostly sensor-related, but after a certain point it become irrelevant. The 3310 is at that point IMO.
*Surface compatibility* - ok, but other things like the lens are factors too no? It's established that the 3366 has better surface compatibility than the 3310? I haven't seen that anywhere.
*Low LOD* - the 3366 is capable of getting significantly lower LOD than the 3310? The 3310 is already capable of getting much lower LOD than many of us who like low LOD want.
*Lower variance (speed related accuracy variance I assume)* - Do you have proof that the 3366 is intrinsically more capable here than the 3310?
*No smoothing* - Well the 3366 mice definitely have the feeling of smoothing. But regarding the technical definition (completely different thing), smoothing can be effected in the other non-sensor based customizations like firmware/SROM. CPate's comment doesn't state smoothing is inherent. And I don't see where/if you did your "smoothing blip" tests with any 3366 mouse.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Because he likes how the cursor feels. It has nothing to do with performance. It's about the smoothness caused by the MCU filtering. Same goes for Dazed, Steel, Adren and Moe.
> 
> Funny how the people I mentioned don't have very good aim, relative to other top players, when they use/used the FinalMouse.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The 3366 feels more "edgy." More so when moving at slow speeds.
> 
> I haven't used a FinalMouse yet. *I can only assume, based off the graphs, that it feels more floaty/smooth than a 3366*. Kind of like going from 30 FPS to 60 FPS.
> 
> By the way, I think FinalMouse uses MCU filtering because it would make the MouseTester graphs look amazing compared to other mice. At the time we had an inaccurate understanding of the information, therefore could be fooled easily.


Absolutely not. What you just described is "smoothing" as it's original use - IE: to describe the feeling of the cursor movement being floaty or smoothed out. The FM, MLT04, and DA4g have less of this than any other mouse I've tested.

What qsxcv has been referring to as "smoothing" is a technical definition that describes an algorithm that artificially "smooths" out the raw data. His tests actually showed that the MLT04 has none of this MCU filtering (as far as I remember). Which is why your continual statement/accusation of me liking the FEELING of smoothing is completely wrong. In fact it's the complete opposite of the truth.

On a side note, the FM actually feels more "edgy" than the MLT04. This I think has something to do with me thinking I can feel the fact that it has a larger pixel array.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the factor that makes the mouse feel accurate in game. Like we've been over before, it's far from just my opinion. There is wide consensus around this among people who've used the MLT04 and FM.


i could also say that there is "wide consensus" that the 3366 is the best sensor









and then you'd reply with some comment about how people think so just because skylit said something
and then i'd reply that people think fm is so good because of how much you promote it
etc...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Do we even have evidence that a larger sensor array is better? I think I can actually tell that the FM's array is larger (smaller pixels) than the MLT04's, and I think it might be a bad thing in some ways. What it's good for is giving higher native resolutions, but there are pros and cons to that.
> 
> *Malfunction speed* - yes, that's one of the things that is mostly sensor-related, but after a certain point it become irrelevant. The 3310 is at that point IMO.


true they're just specifications
Quote:


> *Surface compatibility* - ok, but other things like the lens are factors too no? It's established that the 3366 has better surface compatibility than the 3310? I haven't seen that anywhere.


iirc skylit said something along the lines of "laser-illuminated sensors generally have better surface compatibilty than led-illuminated sensors, but with the 3366 is pretty much on par with the laser sensors". can't find source
Quote:


> *Low LOD* - the 3366 is capable of getting significantly lower LOD than the 3310? The 3310 is already capable of getting much lower LOD than many of us who like low LOD want.


i don't really care about it either but i think 3366 with surface tuning can go lower than any 3310, and for sure 3366 @ default settings has lower lod than finalmouse
Quote:


> *Lower variance (speed related accuracy variance I assume)* - Do you have proof that the 3366 is intrinsically more capable here than the 3310?


nope only hints from skylit and woll3
Quote:


> *No smoothing* - Well the 3366 mice definitely have the feeling of smoothing. But regarding the technical definition (completely different thing)


no it's not a completely different thing. try a 3988 at 6400dpi, windows sensitivity at 2/11 or 3/11, and have fun using the cursor.
Quote:


> , smoothing can be effected in the other non-sensor based customizations like firmware/SROM.


yes
Quote:


> CPate's comment doesn't state smoothing is inherent. And I don't see where/if you did your "smoothing blip" tests with any 3366 mouse.


well here's an old image








actually if you try enough times, you can get a small blip (one point, ~20% above the curve) with 3366. it's not because of smoothing though... just the timing of things when there's framerate transition. i can replicate this behavior with my mousetester graph simulator


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> What qsxcv has been referring to as "smoothing" is a technical definition that describes an algorithm that artificially "smooths" out the raw data. His tests actually showed that the MLT04 has none of this MCU filtering (as far as I remember). Which is why your continual statement/accusation of me liking the FEELING of smoothing is completely wrong. In fact it's the complete opposite of the truth.


uh ok. afaik:
there's sensor smoothing which works by simply averaging data from the last X frames. this causes blips in mousetester plots when there's a framerate
and then there's mcu smoothing... e.g. in finalmouse, ninox aurora, azio exo1, probably many other mice as well. it applies an exponential moving average filter to the data the mcu reads from the sensor. of course the mcu can do something completely different, but so far i haven't seen a mouse which does mcu smoothing differently.

both of these feel similar to delays.

see these two posts
http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24401063


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i could also say that there is "wide consensus" that the 3366 is the best sensor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and then you'd reply with some comment about how people think so just because skylit said something
> and then i'd reply that people think fm is so good because of how much you promote it
> etc...


I can't believe you're still saying this... we've been over this multiple times... I'm FAR from the only one saying/thinking the MLT04 or FM are significantly better than anything else, and I wasn't even the first for either one.

There have been a number of youtube reviews where people who had never used an MLT04 were saying how surprising it was how much better the FM felt vs every other mouse they've used.

Quote:


> i don't really care about it either but i think 3366 with surface tuning can go lower than any 3310, and for sure 3366 @ default settings has lower lod than finalmouse


Someone measured it?

Quote:


> no it's not a completely different thing. try a 3988 at 6400dpi, windows sensitivity at 2/11 or 3/11, and have fun using the cursor.


You said yourself the FM has it but the MLT04 does not.

But the FM cursor movement actually feels less "smooth" than the MLT04. I have not seen any proof that the feeling of smoothing and the technical descriptor of algorithmic smoothing are related. Unfortunately I do not have a 3988 to try that with. But it would likely also differ from mouse to mouse with that same 3988 sensor.
Quote:


> well here's an old image
> []...[]
> actually if you try enough times, you can get a small blip (one point, ~20% above the curve) with 3366. it's not because of smoothing though... just the timing of things when there's framerate transition. i can replicate this behavior with my mousetester graph simulator


So can you do the same test (zoomed in) with a 3366 mouse that you did with the torq x5?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uh ok. afaik:
> there's sensor smoothing which works by simply averaging data from the last X frames. this causes blips in mousetester plots when there's a framerate
> and then there's mcu smoothing... e.g. in finalmouse, ninox aurora, azio exo1, probably many other mice as well. it applies an exponential moving average filter to the data the mcu reads from the sensor. of course the mcu can do something completely different, but so far i haven't seen a mouse which does mcu smoothing differently.
> 
> both of these feel similar to delays.
> 
> see these two posts
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24401063


We REALLY need to stop using the word "smoothing" for everything. "Filtering" and "averaging" are also words. We should be assigning those to various specific phenomenon as is appropriate.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I can't believe you're still saying this... we've been over this multiple times... I'm FAR from the only one saying/thinking the MLT04 or FM are significantly better than anything else, and I wasn't even the first for either one.
> 
> There have been a number of youtube reviews where people who had never used an MLT04 were saying how surprising it was how much better the FM felt vs every other mouse they've used.


likewise there's a huge number of people who think 3366 is the best sensor. doesn't mean that it is or isn't.
personally i could care less about popular opinion. it's 2015 and still a bunch of csgo players look towards the bomb because they think it reduces the damage. or that the m4a4 recoil is diffcult to control lol
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> But the FM cursor movement actually feels less "smooth" than the MLT04. I have not seen any proof that the feeling of smoothing and the technical descriptor of algorithmic smoothing are related


and we have no proof what you feel as "smoothing" is the same as mine or someone else's. the fact that you can find a thousand people who agree with you doesn't mean much, as there's probably just as many who disagree
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> We REALLY need to stop using the word "smoothing" for everything. "Filtering" and "averaging" are also words. We should be assigning those to various specific phenomenon as is appropriate.


imo the phenomena are too similar to deserve different names.
Quote:


> EDIT: in that link you edited and flashed an mcu-filtering-free version of firmware/srom in order to do the comparison?


they haven't released it yet, at least publically.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> So can you do the same test (zoomed in) with a 3366 mouse that you did with the torq x5?


i have and there's no evidence that it has frame data-averaging, if that's what you want to call it


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Absolutely not. What you just described is "smoothing" as it's original use - IE: to describe the feeling of the cursor movement being floaty or smoothed out. The FM, MLT04, and DA4g have less of this than any other mouse I've tested.
> 
> What qsxcv has been referring to as "smoothing" is a technical definition that describes an algorithm that artificially "smooths" out the raw data. His tests actually showed that the MLT04 has none of this MCU filtering (as far as I remember). Which is why your continual statement/accusation of me liking the FEELING of smoothing is completely wrong. In fact it's the complete opposite of the truth.
> 
> On a side note, the FM actually feels more "edgy" than the MLT04. This I think has something to do with me thinking I can feel the fact that it has a larger pixel array.


Use a low frame rate sensor like the PAW-3305, then use a higher frame rate sensor from Avago. That's what I am referring to when I say people like the smoothness of the MCU filtering provides. I am not referring to any delayed cursor movement, nor am I referring to accurate tracking. I am simply referring to how the cursor feels in-game. Similar to how the feel of the cursor changes when using a red cloth pad with the 3090 sensor.

The MCU filtering gives you the impression that the FinalMouse is better than a Logitech mouse. In no way does it track the surface better than a 3366... This is what I keep telling you. You think the FinalMouse is better because it filters out the faults at the expense of response and your actual movement. You could look at it as you would angle snapping.

The 3310 is essentially a 9800 sensor using a LED instead of a laser and it has a lower frame rate. If all the post processing was removed you would think very differently of the FinalMouse.

The 3310 felt sluggish, it seems there is some inherent angle snapping, it has a low frame rate and appears to be problematic when you mess with the LOD settings. If there was MCU filtering on top of that I don't think I could use such a product seriously.

I think you like the FinalMouse because it gives you the impression that it tracks well on your mouse pad, that it has a fluid motion naturally derived from the sensor. the processing delay masks your mistakes and the 3310 has the tendency to snap/draw straight lines. The word that comes to mind is "crutch."

If that works better for you, that's great. Be happy using it. Just don't indoctrinate ignorant consumers...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> likewise there's a huge number of people who think 3366 is the best sensor. doesn't mean that it is or isn't.


The devil is in the details qsxcv.

Look at the reasons those people state. I've talked to TONS of them. *I have not seen a single one that is referring to the actual in-game performance*. They are all just regurgitating the same misinformation that is so wide spread. If you look at the youtube reviewers who say it, they are all just ignorant people who do fluff "reviews".

Quote:


> it's 2015 and still a bunch of csgo players look towards the bomb because they think it reduces the damage.


You mean when it explodes?
Quote:


> and we have no proof what you feel as "smoothing" is the same as mine or someone else's.


That's quite an odd statement... When people first started using the word "smoothing" it was as a descriptor for "mouse movement that feels floaty or smoothed out".

But this statement of yours also contradicts your statement that "the feeling and the technical descriptors are the same thing".
Quote:


> the fact that you can find a thousand people who agree with you doesn't mean much, as there's probably just as many who disagree


There aren't though. There is overwhelming consensus on the in-game performance of the MLT04 and FM. Some people got malfunctioning FMs, and there is some build quality/performance variance between them though, and there are also people who don't have their systems optimized, etc., so that will definitely lead to some difference in opinion. But if you take those specific issues into account, there is a consensus.

Quote:


> imo the phenomena are too similar to deserve different names.


Facepalm.

Wow, you really surprise me with this one. That's quite a scientifically flawed view coming from someone who's been promoting and performing most of the empirical data that currently exists.

Firstly, you've been using the word "smoothing" for a variety of different technical phenomenon. Secondly, we have no blind test that tells us what it *feels like* to have a mouse with and without those things. There are simply too many other variables to compare those things by testing one mouse vs another. If we had the firmware/srom flash from FM that they were going to release in order to toggle the MCU filtering, then that would qualify.

But we already have good reason/evidence that MCU filtering does NOT equal the feeling of smoothing. Because the FM pretty much has the least of that feeling of any mouse on the market.

Quote:


> both of these feel similar to delays.
> 
> see these two posts
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24401063


I don't see how you can say they feel similar to delays since you weren't actually able to test it with a mouse, just a code simulator.
Quote:


> i have and there's no evidence that it has frame data-averaging, if that's what you want to call it


Link? I've only seen you do the test for the x5.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Use a low frame rate sensor like the PAW-3305, then use a higher frame rate sensor from Avago.


You can't do that. There are way too many other variables that aren't being ruled out in a test like that.
Quote:


> That's what I am referring to when I say people like the smoothness of the MCU filtering provides. I am not referring to any delayed cursor movement, nor am I referring to accurate tracking. I am simply referring to how the cursor feels in-game. Similar to how the feel of the cursor changes when using a red cloth pad with the 3090 sensor.


But both of those things contribute to how the cursor feels in game.....

Also, we have no proof that MCU filtering causes a smoother feeling of the cursor movement in game. I can see how it's easy to make this assumption though. Also, we have no proof that whatever feeling MCU filtering causes is the same as what people called "smoothing" from the beginning.
Quote:


> The MCU filtering gives you the impression that the FinalMouse is better than a Logitech mouse.


You have *zero* basis for this statement. This is no better than flinging poop. It's pure, unfounded conjecture.

Quote:


> In no way does it track the surface better than a 3366. This is what I keep telling you.


Yes, you DO keep TELLING me that. Yet I've picked apart that claim multiple times. You base it entirely on a few very small pieces of the puzzle that in no way are an accurate measurement of the whole.

Quote:


> You think the FinalMouse is better because it filters out the faults at the expense of response and your actual movement.


You have *zero* basis for this statement. This is no better than flinging poop. It's pure, unfounded conjecture/accusation.
Quote:


> You could look at it as you would angle snapping.


I've never done a blind test with and without angle snapping, but the mice that have had it have been very bad for me, and the mice that have been the best have not had it. So that's a bad example.

Quote:


> If all the post processing was removed you would think very differently of the FinalMouse.


You have *zero* basis for this statement. This is no better than flinging poop. It's pure, unfounded conjecture.

Quote:


> The 3310 felt sluggish, it seems there is some inherent angle snapping, it has a low frame rate and appears to be problematic when you mess with the LOD settings.


You can't directly compare sensors like that. Each mouse with a 3310 sensor feels completely different.
Quote:


> I think you like the FinalMouse because it gives you the impression that it tracks well on your mouse pad, that it has a fluid motion naturally derived from the sensor. the processing delay masks your mistakes and the 3310 has the tendency to snap/draw straight lines. The word that comes to mind is "crutch."


You have *zero* basis for this statement. This is no better than flinging poop. It's pure, unfounded conjecture.

Have you even tested the FM and MLT04?

Indoctrination of ignorant consumers is *exactly* what I'm trying to fight.

I have NO horse in this race. I'm simply here to find a valid replacement for my IE 3.0. All the wide spread misinformation is detrimental to that, as it is keeping ignorant consumers buying ****ty products, and thus keeping the pressure off manufacturers to make a product that actually performs better than a 10+ year old mouse.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> *Higher framerate* - yes, but I believe that Skylit or someone like that actually said higher framerate isn't necessarily better, but that the ratio of framerate to buffer(?) is more important, or something like that.
> *Malfunction speed* - yes, that's one of the things that is mostly sensor-related, but after a certain point it become irrelevant. The 3310 is at that point IMO.
> *Surface compatibility* - ok, but other things like the lens are factors too no? It's established that the 3366 has better surface compatibility than the 3310? I haven't seen that anywhere.
> *Low LOD* - the 3366 is capable of getting significantly lower LOD than the 3310? The 3310 is already capable of getting much lower LOD than many of us who like low LOD want.
> *Lower variance (speed related accuracy variance I assume)* - Do you have proof that the 3366 is intrinsically more capable here than the 3310?
> *No smoothing* - Well the 3366 mice definitely have the feeling of smoothing. But regarding the technical definition (completely different thing), smoothing can be effected in the other non-sensor based customizations like firmware/SROM. CPate's comment doesn't state smoothing is inherent. And I don't see where/if you did your "smoothing blip" tests with any 3366 mouse.


Frame rate is absolutely important for different reasons. One of those reasons (from what I can tell) is related to the smoothing code within the SROM of some sensors. Ultimately, it's about tracking performance and response. Keep in mind these are CMOS sensors.

I have heard a lot of complaints regarding the 3310 on certain surfaces. I have only heard about tracking issues from the 3366 when people used the drivers to "tune" the sensor. Rafa has done some testing on different surfaces.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Out of the box the LOD is very low on my red Artisan Hien, about 1 CD or less. On a generic black cloth pad it barely tracks movement at 1 CD height. On a rough black plastic pad it tracks decently at 1 CD height.


The 3366 theoretically should be lower in manufacturing variance because it has things built in and the lens is supposed to be mounted securely to the sensor housing. My G303 had shockingly accurate CPI values.

Logitech claims the 3366 doesn't do any extra processing of data for the sake of improving output. The 3310 does have extra processing within the SROM and FinalMouse adds more via MCU.


----------



## qsxcv

alright this is too much to quote so i'll do it wareya's way. sorry if it becomes unreadable

>Look at the reasons those people state. I've talked to TONS of them. *I have not seen a single one that is referring to the actual in-game performance*.
i've never cared about any youtube reviews of mice. afaik they're all quite superficial as you imply. i thought the comments here on this forum about 3366's tracking generally pertain to ingame performance.

>You mean when it explodes?
yes of course
it's just an example of how myths/superstitions/"placebo" effects/whatever spread. people hear from others that "abc is xyz" and then when they try abc they already think of xyz. this applies to both popular opinion on logitech's 3366 mice and on fm's tracking, both of which have been well received publically.

as to the feeling of smoothing vs the algorithm:
first it is undeniable that the sensor-level averaging algorithm, when applied to a sufficient number of frames, causes mouse tracking to be significantly delayed. that's what i meant by [email protected], where the last 16ms of frames are averaged.
what the mcu does in finalmouse and others is very similar though the data points are exponentially weighted instead of simply taking the last X samples and averaging.
that's why i say they're similar.

i'm not even the first to use this terminology:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2679310
except the aurora does have mcu smoothing









>But we already have good reason/evidence that MCU filtering does NOT equal the feeling of smoothing. Because the FM pretty much has the least of that feeling of any mouse on the market.
at some level, either of these may become unnoticeable. but that doesnt mean it's not there. a monitor with 2ms input lag may feel like it has no input lag, but it does.

>I don't see how you can say they feel similar to delays since you weren't actually able to test it with a mouse, just a code simulator.
omg... did you not see how many pictures of actual data i posted in that thread?
ill link you again
http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/200_100#post_24332243

>Link? I've only seen you do the test for the x5.
uhh








or did you want to see it more zoomed in? can i just tell you that i don't see any blips?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Indoctrination of ignorant consumers is *exactly* what I'm trying to fight.


i don't really think you're really helping out when you just repeatedly state stuff like "the finalmouse potentially has the best tracking" and back it up with nothing but your opinions and those of people who agree with you


----------



## MaximilianKohler

This is getting pretty exhausting ._.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> >But we already have good reason/evidence that MCU filtering does NOT equal the feeling of smoothing. Because the FM pretty much has the least of that feeling of any mouse on the market.
> at some level, either of these may become unnoticeable. but that doesnt mean it's not there. a monitor with 2ms input lag may feel like it has no input lag, but it does.


Yes, but we have no evidence that higher levels equal more noticeable *feeling of smoothing*. Likewise, "causes mouse tracking to be significantly delayed", delay does not equal the *feeling of smoothing*. Delay might have a part to play in how badly people perceive smoothing is, but it's not the same thing.

So, so far there is no correlation between algorithmic smoothing/filtering/averaging, and the *feeling* of smoothing.
Quote:


> >I don't see how you can say they feel similar to delays since you weren't actually able to test it with a mouse, just a code simulator.
> omg... did you not see how many pictures of actual data i posted in that thread?
> ill link you again
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/200_100#post_24332243


I think you're confusing some things.

You said the MCU filtering felt like a delay. Yet you didn't actually test the FEELING, as you were only able to toggle the MCU filtering via a code simulator.
Quote:


> >Link? I've only seen you do the test for the x5.
> uhh
> [...]


I was referring to the blip tests/graphs. The blips measure something different than the smooth graph curves that show delays, correct?
Quote:


> i don't really think you're helping out when you just repeatedly state stuff like "the finalmouse potentially has the best tracking" and back it up with nothing but your opinions and those of people who agree with you


Well right now our scientific abilities are insufficient. So consensus based off real world testing is the best we've got.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The 3310 does have extra processing within the SROM and FinalMouse adds more via MCU.


SROMs can be customized, therefore "sensor is x because SROM is x" is false.


----------



## popups

@MaximilianKohler

Didn't FinalMouseJude (qsxcv and others) explain to you how the MCU filtering code works? There is no way you can say I am "flinging poo" when you know how the MCU filtering code works. I think it's safe to assume you don't know because most of your statements are repetitive and it appears I have to explain every variable to you.

You are stuck on this notion that because sometimes there is differences in units during the manufacturing process you can use it as an excuse to ignore data or label it as erroneous.

You can always test a 3090 mouse that use a visible red LED and different color mouse pads. I did that. You will understand what I am talking about. However, I don't see you doing that because you only want to buy 1 Supermat.

You want to know why FinalMouseJude didn't release the firmware that removed the MCU filtering? I have a good guess why that is. If I am correct, I will laugh like I did when Fodder got caught by Valve, it will be a glorious day


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Also, we have no proof that MCU filtering causes a smoother feeling of the cursor movement in game.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This is getting pretty exhausting ._.
> Yes, but we have no evidence that higher levels equal more noticeable *feeling of smoothing*. Likewise, "causes mouse tracking to be significantly delayed", delay does not equal the *feeling of smoothing*. Delay might have a part to play in how badly people perceive smoothing is, but it's not the same thing.


one could also say
we have no proof that 50ms button lag makes it harder to hit awp shots. no one has done any systematic double-blind study comparing performance of awpers using a mice with 50ms lag vs 0ms lag
but no one would say that because what button lag does is obvious

likewise, if you understand what mcu smoothing does it would be obvious how cursor movement is affected.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> SROMs can be customized, therefore "sensor is x because SROM is x" is false.


The entire code of the SROM cannot be changed. Only registers can be changed within the allowable values. If you could change the SROM you could do anything you want with the sensor. There would be no need for sensor tiers. It's similar to CPUs. Why do you think Razer and Logitech have exclusive sensors/SROMs?


----------



## xmr1

Kind of amusing how every shred of actual evidence and data and logic is treated with extreme skepticism and discarded, only to be opposed with nothing but personal opinion and vague anecdotes.

Apparently one side of the argument needs total irrefutable and undeniable proof that covers every possible branch of the discussion to the fullest extent, while the other side only needs something along the lines of "It's obvious I'm right and everyone agrees with me."


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You said the MCU filtering felt like a delay. Yet you didn't actually test the FEELING, as you were only able to toggle the MCU filtering via a code simulator.


okay fine. i'll just say "it looks like a delay when plotted"
Quote:


> I was referring to the blip tests/graphs. The blips measure something different than the smooth graph curves that show delays, correct?


well
the blips show the amount of sensor smoothing in the 2nd and 3rd framerate modes. the red/blue graphs which show a delay gives an estimate of the total amount of smoothing in the 1st lowest framerate mode.

and for instance, for the torq x5, both things show a distinct change in behavior going from 1550 to 1600dpi and from 3150 to 3200dpi
Quote:


> Well right now our scientific abilities are insufficient. So consensus based off real world testing is the best we've got.


i suspect that they'll always be insufficient until there's something which agrees with your "real world testing" at which point you'll suddenly say that they are sufficient









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The entire code of the SROM cannot be changed. Only registers can be changed within the allowable values. If you could change the SROM you could do anything you want with the sensor. There would be no need for sensor tiers. It's similar to CPUs. Why do you think Razer and Logitech have exclusive sensors/SROMs?


actually i reread the ninox threads yesterday and found this
http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2679758
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> Will probably go with 3310 unless something better comes out. I heard some parts of its SROM are editable so will look into that.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> @MaximilianKohler
> 
> Didn't FinalMouseJude (qsxcv and others) explain to you how the MCU filtering code works? There is no way you can say I am "flinging poo" when you know how the MCU filtering code works.


I'm aware how the MCU filtering works. Where the "flinging poo" and "baseless accusations/claims stated as facts" come into play are where you state matter-of-factly that the MCU filtering is the reason why I think the FM performs better in game.
Quote:


> You are stuck on this notion that because sometimes there is differences in units during the manufacturing process you can use it as an excuse to ignore data or label it as erroneous.


I don't know where you're getting that from. I've never claimed anything like that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> one could also say
> we have no proof that 50ms button lag makes it harder to hit awp shots. no one has done any systematic double-blind study comparing performance of awpers using a mice with 50ms lag vs 0ms lag
> but no one would say that because what button lag does is obvious
> 
> likewise, if you understand what mcu smoothing does it would be obvious how cursor movement is affected.


Dude..... come on. That is a ridiculous leap in logic. We have plenty of proof what 50ms delays feel like in the real world. Literally anyone can join one low ping server, then join another. We can do no such thing with comparing the smoothing algorithms with the feeling of smoothing. We have zero experience with what the changes in cursor movement feel like when toggling smoothing algorithms.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> We have zero experience with what the changes in cursor movement feel like when toggling smoothing algorithms.


povohat has a driver which adds accel via software right?
it's possible to exactly emulate mcu smoothing using a driver as well
would be interesting to compare


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The entire code of the SROM cannot be changed. Only registers can be changed within the allowable values. If you could change the SROM you could do anything you want with the sensor. There would be no need for sensor tiers. It's similar to CPUs. Why do you think Razer and Logitech have exclusive sensors/SROMs?


Are you confusing SROM with MCU? http://www.overclock.net/t/1251156/an-overview-of-mouse-technology/0_50 - MCU is similar to CPUs, whereas SROM is memory where all the code that customizes everything is stored.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i suspect that they'll always be insufficient until there's something which agrees with your "real world testing" at which point you'll suddenly say that they are sufficient
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actually i reread the ninox threads yesterday and found this
> http://www.esreality.com/post/2674608/new-gaming-mouse-development-part-3/#pid2679758


Oh, come on. This is a very real thing in every scientific field. A good example is diet, microbiome, etc.. The science has almost always been trying to catch up to prove/explain things we can detect in normal life.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Kind of amusing how every shred of actual evidence and data and logic is treated with extreme skepticism and discarded, only to be opposed with nothing but personal opinion and vague anecdotes.
> 
> Apparently one side of the argument needs total irrefutable and undeniable proof that covers every possible branch of the discussion to the fullest extent, while the other side only needs something along the lines of "It's obvious I'm right and everyone agrees with me."


Sounds to me like you misunderstood the discussion...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> povohat has a driver which adds accel via software right?
> it's possible to exactly emulate mcu smoothing using a driver as well
> would be interesting to compare


I agree that would be extremely interesting and a huge contribution to this debate.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> SROM is memory where all the code that customizes everything is stored.


no it's not. afaik srom affects things like the sensor smoothing, the dpi steps and other low level tracking details. there's no public knowledge on how to interpret or modify the srom meaningfully.
the mcu can configure the sensor to some extent by writing to the registers; look at the adns9800 datasheet for instance.
and then the mcu firmware determines the timing of when motion data is read and what's done to that data
well in one sense the mcu firmware is where everything is stored since the srom and register settings are stored in there


----------



## popups

I guess FinalMouse's ODM is fantastic. They found a way to change the settings of the 3310, which uses the same SROM as others, to the point it performs almost as good as the MLT-04. No other company or coders could do that since the 90s. No other sensor/product can ever rival FinalMouse's settings for the 3310. Sure, at first they couldn't correctly implement some LEDs, which caused their mice to die, but they are great at the other stuff.

Or maybe it's just some fancy MCU code? FinalMouseJude, care to enlighten consumers? There is nothing wrong with showing off a little in public.


----------



## qsxcv

actually i'm not sure if there's anyone who agrees with max that mlt04 = finalmouse >> 3366
from 3 seconds of google, the only things i've found comparing mlt04 and finalmouse are max's posts and a shill review

you can find people who like both mlt04 and finalmouse but i doubt you'll find one among those people who thinks that 3366 is significantly inferior.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> actually i'm not sure if there's anyone who agrees with max that mlt04 = finalmouse >> 3366
> from 3 seconds of google, the only things i've found comparing mlt04 and finalmouse are max's posts and a shill review
> 
> you can find people who like both mlt04 and finalmouse but i doubt you'll find one among those people who thinks that 3366 is significantly inferior.


I haven't seen much about the FinalMouse being as good as a MLT-04 mouse. I have seen Moe, Adren, Dazed, and Scream comment with enthusiasm regarding the FinalMouse.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no it's not. afaik srom affects things like the sensor smoothing, the dpi steps and other low level tracking details. there's no public knowledge on how to interpret or modify the srom meaningfully.
> the mcu can configure the sensor to some extent by writing to the registers; look at the adns9800 datasheet for instance.
> and then the mcu firmware determines the timing of when motion data is read and what's done to that data
> well in one sense the mcu firmware is where everything is stored since the srom and register settings are stored in there


*shrug*
It's what this thing says: http://www.overclock.net/t/1251156/an-overview-of-mouse-technology/0_50#user_xvii
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> actually i'm not sure if there's anyone who agrees with max that mlt04 = finalmouse >> 3366
> from 3 seconds of google, the only things i've found comparing mlt04 and finalmouse are max's posts and a shill review
> 
> you can find people who like both mlt04 and finalmouse but i doubt you'll find one among those people who thinks that 3366 is significantly inferior.


Yeah, I don't remember seeing anyone who used both. What I meant is that I've seen the same kinds of statements/reviews from people who first use the FM, OR who first use the MLT04. Their reaction about either one being so much better than anything else they've used is what's similar.

And yeah, I don't remember seeing anyone other than myself who's tested both the FM or MLT04, AND tested a 3366 mouse as well.

Also, I don't think the FM is as good as the MLT04. But it, along with the DA4g, are a close 2nd, and also significantly better than everything else, including the 3366. In fact the KPM, my Aurora, and possibly the Mionix mice with their latest firmware, are all better than the 3366 as far as in-game performance goes.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Entire shell should be grainy plastic, that stuff is the best.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Ok, I'd like to have a clean summary to link to when this comes up for the millionth time, so in summary, discussion about _"3310 vs 3366"_ started here. These details were listed as reasons why the 3366 is better than the 3310:

_(bolded = original statement, following is the summary)_

*sensor array resolution (36x36 vs 30x30)* - probably mostly good. The famous video from Logitech Senior Engineer François Morier says continually cutting up the array to increase pixel count is detrimental. wareya says he's talking only about software interp and not the native res.

*~12000 framerate vs ~7000 on 3310 and ~12500 on 3988* - probably better. Only answer received was: _"Frame rate is absolutely important for different reasons. One of those reasons (from what I can tell) is related to the smoothing code within the SROM of some sensors. Ultimately, it's about tracking performance and response. Keep in mind these are CMOS sensors."_ -popups
wareya says higher framerate is always better. I've heard different, but I'm changing this to "probably better".

*~8m/s malfunction speed* - technically yes, but irrelevant in practice since no one makes the 3310's 6+m/s malfunction in game environment.

*surface compatibility* - _"skylit said something along the lines of 'laser-illuminated sensors generally have better surface compatibilty than led-illuminated sensors, but with the 3366 is pretty much on par with the laser sensors'. can't find source"_ -qsxcv
wareya says it's more nuanced than that.

*low lod* - possibly, but irrelevant in practice as the 3310 can already go "too low". - _"i think 3366 with surface tuning can go lower than any 3310, and for sure 3366 @ default settings has lower lod than finalmouse"_ - qsxcv

*integrated illumination means harder for companies/odms to screw up the illumination aspects of the implementation* - ok(?), I don't know anything about this.

*lower variance (speed related accuracy variance, IE: accel)* - all we have are hints from skylit and woll3

*no smoothing* - Not definitive. Some (possibly all) forms are customizable, & not sensor inherent. And the word "smoothing" is used to describe a variety of possibly/probably non-related things. And one of those things _(the original definition: the subjective feeling)_ is actually present in the 3366 mice.
_"afaik, there is no srom of the 3366 which has any data averaging algorithm, and there is no srom of the 3310 which doesn't have that algorithm"_ -qsxcv

I will update this post as needed.

Keep in mind that sensors aren't directly comparible via real world testing since implementation & performance varies dramatically among mice with the same sensor.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Entire shell should be grainy plastic, that stuff is the best.


Until it becomes smooth from constant contact with your hand. Just saying... It's still better than coatings.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ok, I'd like to have a clean summary to link to when this comes up for the millionth time, so in summary, discussion about _"3310 vs 3366"_ started here. These details were listed as reasons why the 3366 is better than the 3310:
> 
> _(bolded = original statement, following is the summary)_
> 
> *sensor array resolution (36x36 vs 30x30)* - debatable; not definitively a benefit; has pros & cons. The famous video from Logitech Senior Engineer François Morier says continually cutting up the array to increase pixel count is detrimental.
> 
> *~12000 framerate vs ~7000 on 3310 and ~12500 on 3988* - non definitive. Only answer received was: _"Frame rate is absolutely important for different reasons. One of those reasons (from what I can tell) is related to the smoothing code within the SROM of some sensors. Ultimately, it's about tracking performance and response. Keep in mind these are CMOS sensors."_ -popups
> 
> *~8m/s malfunction speed* - technically yes, but irrelevant in practice since no one makes the 3310's 6+m/s malfunction in game environment.
> 
> *surface compatibility* - _"skylit said something along the lines of 'laser-illuminated sensors generally have better surface compatibilty than led-illuminated sensors, but with the 3366 is pretty much on par with the laser sensors'. can't find source"_ -qsxcv
> 
> *low lod* - possibly, but irrelevant in practice as the 3310 can already go "too low". - _"i think 3366 with surface tuning can go lower than any 3310, and for sure 3366 @ default settings has lower lod than finalmouse"_ - qsxcv
> 
> *integrated illumination means harder for companies/odms to screw up the illumination aspects of the implementation* - ok(?), I don't know anything about this.
> 
> *lower variance (speed related accuracy variance, IE: accel)* - all we have are hints from skylit and woll3
> 
> *no smoothing* - customizable, not sensor inherent. And the word "smoothing" is used to describe a variety of possibly/probably non-related things. And one of those things _(the original definition: the subjective feeling)_ is actually present in the 3366 mice.
> 
> I will update this post as needed.


What do you think of the AM010?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> What do you think of the AM010?


Haven't tried it since it only has 3 buttons. My friend tells me it's too small (his hands are much smaller than mine) and the sensor is inferior to the MLT04.

Oops, well that's for the g100s. For the g402 it's too thin so I didn't bother. I pretty much only test mice which seem like they'd be a valid replacement for my 3.0.


----------



## wareya

>debatable; not definitively a benefit

actually, more pixels = less noise mixed into the output correlation

however an increase from 30x30 to 36x36 is only an increase of 30-40% number of pixels. when mixing noise you need 4x the information to reduce the noise levels by 6db. so this would be like, 1-1.5db of noise reduction, which is basically nothing. (for reference, 50% amplitude is -6db, and 200% power [the result of mixing two different audio signals together at random phase] is +3db.)

>non definitive

higher framerate is always better as long as the sensor can handle it. I imagine that all these flagship sensors are pretty much pushing their individual limits.

>surface compatibility

surface compatibility is more nuanced than that. One of the DAs performs *perfectly* with nearly no nonlinearity up to the malfunction speed, but only on certain surfaces (http://sousuch.web.fc2.com/DIY/mouse_senor/index.html). And laser-illuminated mice accelerate on everything but hard black surfaces.

>low lod

3310 is already too low for me.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> *no smoothing* - customizable, not sensor inherent. And the word "smoothing" is used to describe a variety of possibly/probably non-related things.


Sensor smoothing actually is inherent to SROM and can't typically be modified. Not the same as MCU smoothing though which is separate and manufacturer choice.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> And one of those things _(the original definition: the subjective feeling)_ is actually present in the 3366 mice.


Not supported by anything. You can try all you want to minimize the points in favor of 3366, but there is nothing of any substance that is offered in favor of the other side.


----------



## povohat

If you want to simulate smoothed/averaged mouse response, try m_filter in any game that inherited the quake codebase (eg: anything by valve). The Quake Live m_filter command also lets you use values >1 for even more filtering.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *povohat*
> 
> If you want to simulate smoothed/averaged mouse response, try m_filter in any game that inherited the quake codebase (eg: anything by valve). The Quake Live m_filter command also lets you use values >1 for even more filtering.


it's not the same algorithm as finalmouse's though right? i.e. x_i = (x_{i-1} + r_{i-1})/2 where x is the filtered data and r is the raw data


----------



## povohat

The implementation i see in the Quake source doesn't carry the filtered data into the next operation, it simply averages the current and previous inputs and uses that average to adjust the viewport.

https://github.com/id-Software/Quake/blob/bf4ac424ce754894ac8f1dae6a3981954bc9852d/WinQuake/in_win.c#L683


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> *no smoothing* - customizable, not sensor inherent.


this is kind of misleading. it is customizable in the sense that you can add to it with the mcu.
afaik, there is no srom of the 3366 which has any data averaging algorithm, and there is no srom of the 3310 which doesn't have that algorithm.

i'll just leave this here:
4 plots of g502 vs finalmouse, both @ 800dpi, completely stable 500hz
to avoid the temptation of cherry picking data, i collected the data in these plots before looking at the plots, and saved csv files for each. after i collected 4, the csv files were loaded back into mousecomparator to normalize the sensitivities (which doesn't really matter since they're so close anyway) and make these plots.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!









plots are from beginning of the motion to the first framerate transition of the finalmouse.
it's a very consistent 4ms difference every time. honestly more consistent than i expect.... when i tried wmo vs g502, wmo would win by 0-1.5ms

my current understanding of this is that the mcu smoothing contributes to 2ms of the difference, and the 3310's sensor smoothing, which averages the last 4ms of frames, contributes to the remaining 2ms.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I put the m_filter testing on my to do list.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >debatable; not definitively a benefit
> 
> actually, more pixels = less noise mixed into the output correlation
> 
> however an increase from 30x30 to 36x36 is only an increase of 30-40% number of pixels. when mixing noise you need 4x the information to reduce the noise levels by 6db. so this would be like, 1-1.5db of noise reduction, which is basically nothing. (for reference, 50% amplitude is -6db, and 200% power [the result of mixing two different audio signals together at random phase] is +3db.)


That is the opposite of what Morier states in the video. 3:10.

I added your other statements.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Sensor smoothing actually is inherent to SROM and can't typically be modified. Not the same as MCU smoothing though which is separate and manufacturer choice.


I guess it depends what definition of "smoothing" you're using. The *feeling* can definitely, and has been in a number of different mice, be changed via firmware/srom updates. MCU filtering can be easily changed too.

Jude also stated that their firmware flash directly modifies the SROM. So customizing that is certainly doable.
Quote:


> Not supported by anything. You can try all you want to minimize the points in favor of 3366, but there is nothing of any substance that is offered in favor of the other side.


It's supported by real world testing. You can try to argue that empirical data is more important, but like I've said before, our scientific abilities here are quite limited. So real world testing is still the most relevant indicator of performance.

Denying wind exists before we were scientifically able to determine what exactly wind was, would be idiotic.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> this is kind of misleading. it is customizable in the sense that you can add to it with the mcu.
> afaik, there is no srom of the 3366 which has any data averaging algorithm, and there is no srom of the 3310 which doesn't have that algorithm.
> 
> i'll just leave this here:
> 4 plots of g502 vs finalmouse, both @ 800dpi, completely stable 500hz
> to avoid the temptation of cherry picking data, i collected the data in these plots before looking at the plots, and saved csv files for each. after i collected 4, the csv files were loaded back into mousecomparator to normalize the sensitivities (which doesn't really matter since they're so close anyway) and make these plots.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> plots are from beginning of the motion to the first framerate transition of the finalmouse.
> it's a very consistent 4ms difference every time. honestly more consistent than i expect.... when i tried wmo vs g502, wmo would win by 0-1.5ms
> 
> my current understanding of this is that the mcu smoothing contributes to 2ms of the difference, and the 3310's sensor smoothing, which averages the last 4ms of frames, contributes to the remaining 2ms.


Added/edited.


----------



## wareya

>That is the opposite of what Morier states in the video.

He's talking about interpolation, not having a higher sensor resolution. "Cutting each pixel in two" is just a graphic aid for understanding interpolation. The proof that he's talking about interpolation is "we can cut it again, and so on" and "by doing that, you are going away from the natural resolution".


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Jude also stated that their firmware flash directly modifies the SROM. So customizing that is certainly doable.


Others have already explained this. Certain select parameters of the SROM can be adjusted within spec. There's not free access to do whatever you wish to it. This is the reason why Logitech and Razer have had exclusive versions of publicly released sensors.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's supported by real world testing. You can try to argue that empirical data is more important, but like I've said before, our scientific abilities here are quite limited. So real world testing is still the most relevant indicator of performance.
> 
> Denying wind exists before we were scientifically able to determine what exactly wind was, would be idiotic.


It's not supported by real world testing by any means. The findings are completely subjective and vary from user to user, and are easily influenced by a large number of variables including cognitive biases. You can objectively observe and measure wind without being able to scientifically explain its origin.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Others have already explained this. Certain select parameters of the SROM can be adjusted within spec. There's not free access to do whatever you wish to it. This is the reason why Logitech and Razer have had exclusive versions of publicly released sensors.
> It's not supported by real world testing by any means. The findings are completely subjective and vary from user to user, and are easily influenced by a large number of variables including cognitive biases. You can objectively observe and measure wind without being able to scientifically explain its origin.


The point is that we weren't always able to do that. Our tools to even simply measure wind developed more and more over time. Our tools to measure mouse performance are still developing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >That is the opposite of what Morier states in the video.
> 
> He's talking about interpolation, not having a higher sensor resolution. "Cutting each pixel in two" is just a graphic aid for understanding interpolation. The proof that he's talking about interpolation is "we can cut it again, and so on" and "by doing that, you are going away from the natural resolution".


Ok. I'm skeptical, but I'll take your word for it. Added.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The point is that we weren't always able to do that. Our tools to even simply measure wind developed more and more over time. Our tools to measure mouse performance are still developing.


Whether or not we could measure it, we could always easily and unmistakably observe the effects of wind due to the scale of them in relation to ourselves and our senses. This is far from the case with mice when we're talking about effects of time or motion that would be measured in micro units.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Whether or not we could measure it, we could always easily and unmistakably observe the effects of wind due to the scale of them in relation to ourselves and our senses. This is far from the case with mice when we're talking about effects of time or motion that would be measured in micro units.


Ehh, guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. For me, the comparison I did with the DA 3.5g & 4g, as well as tests I did with the FMs, the fact that I can tell a difference between 5ms input lag, the fact that going from a 120hz 2233rz to a 144hz XL2411Z has an extremely obvious impact, and the fact that virtually everyone who's tested an MLT04 or FM agrees on their superiority, etc. etc., more than lays to rest any dispute of my ability to compare mouse sensor performance.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Well, that argument looped back to the same ol' video links quickly.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ehh, guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. For me, the comparison I did with the DA 3.5g & 4g, as well as tests I did with the FMs, the fact that I can tell a difference between 5ms input lag, the fact that going from a 120hz 2233rz to a 144hz XL2411Z has an extremely obvious impact, and the fact that virtually everyone who's tested an MLT04 or FM agrees on their superiority, etc. etc., more than lays to rest any dispute of my ability to compare mouse sensor performance.


4/5 is not at all a statistically significant result in an ABX test and statements like there's an "obvious impact" and "virtually everyone agrees" carry no weight. There's also qsxcv's plots which contradict your findings.

I definitely agree this would just go in circles forever though.


----------



## qsxcv

well the thing is maxkohler has a particular set of preferences which he is very vocal about.
i'm mainly interested in the technical aspects of tracking. of course i care about how it end up "feeling" subjectively as well, but i'm less picky and already 95% happy with the tracking in my g100s.

the mystery is how to explain maxkohler's list with whatever limited knowledge we have








is this the most recent list?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.msg1798930#msg1798930
the only things which really stick out are the aurora and the 3366. if you remove those two from the list, everything else seems reasonable; i haven't tried or tested many of them but i wouldn't be surprised that the implementations of the mice near the bottom of the list are pretty bad.

aurora also has mcu smoothing, and the firmware for it in general is very unstable (timing of sensor communication; this mostly affects how smooth the tracking is), though it seems this is typical for 3090 mice.
out of everything i've tried (and heard from various people who know some private stuff), there's nothing that would indicate that the 3366's tracking is inferior to the tracking of the finalmouse or aurora.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I can tell a difference between 5ms input lag


well finalmouse's tracking is effectively delayed by 4ms...
actually you can literally see the delay even without any plotting things.
push a g502 and 180 rotated finalmouse together, set at same dpi+polling to be fair, and push it from side to side. the cursor always gets dragged several pixels towards the direction the g502 should go. it's very very obvious


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> 4/5 is not at all a statistically significant result in an ABX test and statements like there's an "obvious impact" and "virtually everyone agrees" carry no weight. There's also qsxcv's plots which contradict your findings.
> 
> I definitely agree this would just go in circles forever though.


Ehh, 4/5 twice for 10ms and once for 5ms. 8/10 is significant. And I didn't keep going for 5ms because I got the same result. I could do more and record & upload to youtube if that's really going to change your mind...

Your other statements just seem silly. Most people would agree that going from the 2233rz to the XL2411Z has a very obvious difference ingame. The fact that you don't care about consensus and you don't seem to think that anyone can tell the difference between mice ingame, even though I've already linked to pretty definitive proof is pretty telling.

Also, qsxcv's graphs don't contradict my findings. They measure completely different things and only make up a small part of the overall picture.

@qsxcv, yeah the Aurora performance varied a lot from mouse to mouse (we saw this with mousetester graphs). That's why I specified "my" Aurora. It was very different from other 3090 (zowie) mice I tested though.

>_there's nothing that would indicate that the 3366's tracking is inferior to the tracking of the finalmouse or aurora_
I agree with this statement. Which is why I've said multiple times that our empirical data/measurements are far from being definitive until we can measure/see/figure out the difference between the DA4g and 3366. Because our capabilities ATM tell us that they look identical, even though their ingame performance is very different.


----------



## wareya

kohler rolls without drivers. KPM defaults to a high click delay until you install drivers and flash the updated firmware. If you remove that variable it should be above the FM because the KPM shouldn't have MCU smoothing (hammer test: https://imgrush.com/C71qTYW5QfMS and note: loose sensor)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> kohler rolls without drivers. KPM defaults to a high click delay until you install drivers and flash the updated firmware. If you remove that variable it should be above the FM because the KPM shouldn't have MCU smoothing (hammer test: https://imgrush.com/C71qTYW5QfMS and note: loose sensor)


How recent was that firmware update? And what mouse is shown in the image?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ehh, 4/5 twice for 10ms and once for 5ms. 8/10 is significant.


too lazy to explain but 8/10 isn't even significant at 95% confidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test#Confidence
not that it matters. being sensitive to input lag doesn't mean that you're always right or anything
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Also, qsxcv's graphs don't contradict my findings. They measure completely different things and only make up a small part of the overall picture.


k that's up for you to decide
what they measure is: if two mice both move together with the same motion, after normalizing for dpi, how much of a time delay is there between the two mice. as i showed with the simulated data, this value is proportional to the amount of sensor smoothing, and increases by 1ms for 1000hz and 2ms for 500hz if there is the mcu smoothing filter as implemented in finalmouse +other mice.


----------



## wareya

>How recent was that firmware update? And what mouse is shown in the image?

I don't know, but I went through several from Amazon relatively recently and they all had the same old firmware. It's *necessary* to update the firmware on any KPM to get the low click delay.

The pictured mouse is a KPM with a loose sensor. I recorded it because of it spiking because of that, but if you look at the left side, you'll see that there's no visible smoothing, unlike the Finalmouse.

I was running at 500hz so as a natural result it hid the SROM smoothing.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test#Confidence

I got 9/10 on a 10ms test. cool, I have 95% confidence that I can tell 10ms


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I have 95% confidence


what confidence means is that
if a million monkeys did the test and just randomly selected between A and B, at least 95% of them would get less than 9 correct from 10 trials. i.e. you did better than how 95% of monkeys would do


----------



## wareya

i'm aware


----------



## qsxcv

k well hopefully someone else will understand the limitations of the test from that.

plus
1. last time i tried that test, i could barely notice 10ms, but the 8ms delay from sensor smoothing of the 3988 is easily noticeable to me. at least i think
2. in a 3d game where the whole screen moves when you move the mouse, there is more feedback and input latency should be more noticeable


----------



## wareya

>2. in a 3d game where the whole screen moves when you move the mouse, there is more feedback and input latency should be more noticeable

This is actually my bigger problem with it

Even on an engine with zero buffering, on a display system with zero buffering, the difference between 125 and 250fps in Quake 3 is tangible to me -- difficult, but tangible. But that should only be a difference of 2ms average latency. 4ms if there's even a single buffered game frame somewhere, which I'm sure there isn't due to testing certain things at like two frames per second. And the difference between 65fps and 250fps is not just tangible, but easy. Which should, even then, be 7ms.

And yet 10ms in that input lag test was hard. Very hard. Like telling 170fps from 250fps.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*


Feel free to cite this mysterious consensus. How many people agree with your findings and how many disagree? How many are neutral or have abstained from commenting? How many people's findings would hold up in a scientific setting and how many people are just perpetuating an idea influenced by others?

I know those are unrealistic questions to answer but the reality is without that, there is no consensus and wouldn't matter even if there was one.

qsxcv addressed the other points already.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Even on an engine with zero buffering, on a display system with zero buffering, the difference between 125 and 250fps in Quake 3 is tangible to me -- difficult, but tangible.


125 vs 200+ fps in csgo is obvious though








though it's more about smoothness of motion...


----------



## wareya

naw man, I get the same feeling from comparing properly vsynced 100fps (read: input lag from mouse to monitor cable is "exactly" [scare quotes] 10ms at all times) to non-vsynced 250fps as I do between non-vsynced 60fps and 250fps. Except the former is a little more extreme.

if only I had a freesync monitor, I could be more objective because I could discard the tearing influence


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Because our capabilities ATM tell us that they look identical,


da4g/any 3988 has sensor smoothing: http://www.overclock.net/t/1554228/visualizing-smoothing-in-mousetester/0_100#post_24216206
3366 doesn't
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> far from being definitive


maybe we'll never figure out why you dislike 3366 so much, but if or when we can explain the preferences of 90% of other people are you still going to say that?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 2. in a 3d game where the whole screen moves when you move the mouse, there is more feedback and input latency should be more noticeable


Yeah, I agree with that. Testing stuff ingame does seem to make it more noticeable.

There's also the fact that we can tell a 1ms difference by going from 500 to 1000hz.

People that claim we can't tell any of this kind of stuff is just absurd to me.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> da4g/any 3988 has sensor smoothing: http://www.overclock.net/t/1554228/visualizing-smoothing-in-mousetester/0_100#post_24216206
> 3366 doesn't


That's interesting.

So I see a few ways we can interpret this.

1. This could possibly be a contributing factor, or even the main factor of when I said I felt something with the DA4g was off. I don't think this is the case because what was off with the DA4g was very unique.
2. The real world effect is miniscule, and has nothing to do with what I felt.
3. What popups has suggested - that I and possibly others actually like this feeling. However, the fact that the MLT04 doesn't have it (correct?) disproves this.

Quote:


> maybe we'll never figure out why you dislike 3366 so much, but if or when we can explain the preferences of 90% of other people are you still going to say that?


I've stated it plenty of times. I don't like it because it has the same inaccurate feeling ingame that virtually every other non-MLT04 mouse has.

I don't know what you mean by that last part. I haven't seen any informed people vouching for the 3366's ingame performance. Everyone proclaiming that mouse has just been regurgitating the same widespread misinformation that shot the 95% casual fluff g502 mouse to the #1 best seller. And if you look at the other best sellers, they're all fluff mice as well. What annoys me is that the misinformation lead to a lot of competitive players also buying that casual fluff mouse. And then lots of people made the exact same complaints about the weight and thinness as I tried to warn people about. Also, I don't remember seeing a single 3366 user who also used an FM or MLT04 _(maybe one of my friends did, I'm asking him)_. Except you, but I haven't seen you say much of anything about ingame performance of any of your mice.

Like I've said to popups before, if you can prove that the flaws/smoothing is actually something we perceive as a positive, then I'll gladly admit it. Because all I care about is how a mouse performs ingame.


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> and the fact that virtually everyone who's tested an MLT04 or FM agrees on their superiority


who is virtually everyone? you keep saying this but I haven't seen anybody say this except you. Here I will start with my opinion. in terms of FEELING MLT04>3366 from Logteich>FM. After having played with an IMO1.1, then a G502, then a FM, then a G303, I think the FM feels more smoothed than the G502 and G303 that I thought felt more smoothed than the MLT04. It's by going backwards with my mice that I figured this, going to my G502 from my Finalmous felt incredible, and going from my G502 to my IMO1.1 also felt incredible.


----------



## trism

Why is the sensor performance so absurdly important anyways? Shape, friction and sensor position matter much more unless the implementation has some serious flaws e.g. high button delay, unstable polling, serious delay etc. Just to prove a point, the S3888 in a Kinzu shell feels vastly different from the original mouse in every aspect you can subjectively feel tracking-wise. With the FW2.33 and a solid color mousepad the Kinzuadder feels one of the best mice I've ever used - and I was already going to sell or trash the DA3.5G because it felt awful.

Fighting over the subjective opinions is useless unless we can conduct a proper ABX blind test using all the sensors in the same shells eliminating all the other factors which could contribute to the subjective feeling of tracking. I am not claiming that there isn't differences in the implementations, just that seeing so varying opinions makes me think that those previously mentioned factors are more important for the user.

Raw data and the measurements are very interesting to see though and they hold much more value than the subjective opinions... in my opinion


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Why is the sensor performance so absurdly important anyways?


It really isn't, all of these sensors are fine to use, it's just that Max has a preference and thinks that it's fair to derive general sensor superiority from that, also always argumenting with the same "massive consensus of people that agree" while there actually are very few.

The real benefit the FM has is the low weight and a useful shape. Sensor wise it's nothing special.


----------



## popups

@MaximilianKohler

I have played with a MLT-04 mouse during the time I tested a G303. I had them both on my desk. I switched between them doing the same tasks. I already commented about the differences. Maybe you forgot.

The PMW-3366 is more similar to the MLT-04 than a PMW-3310. However, I think the MLT has a different way of replicating your motions than any sensor that came after it. I don't know if the MLT is more accurate than a 3366 at the point of the end user.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

To be honest, I admit to confirmation bias when it comes to testing mice. I test so thoroughly, and I've gotten complete affirmation from all the people who I've considered to be the most qualified, that I would typically just assume someone who "disagrees" either doesn't have an optimized/ideal system, made an error on their end, or just isn't qualified to make those kinds of assessments. Because I don't even make assessments unless I'm 100% sure. An example is the Rival, which I said in my review I wasn't fully able to analyze its performance because the shape was so hindering.

Because no one posts all their specs, settings, method of testing, or the game they use, etc. when they list their opinion or makes a review. And I've seen a whole lot of really stupidly incompetent ways people are "testing" their mice.And we've learned that things like high hz monitors are important for this kind of thing. Also, the fact that there is variance between mice, especially the FM, can easily make us conclude that some people just got a bad one, and some people got better ones. Another example is the fact that I couldn't tell the difference between 500 and 1000hz until I further optimized my system.

I don't have any kind of link to a consensus of course. But if you've been around these forums you'd know that in the KPM thread there was consensus. You'd know that I was strongly attacked on this website and others when I first started saying the MLT04 was so much better than everything else. And now you'll find almost no one that disagrees.

So I'm more than fully confident in my abilities.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Why is the sensor performance so absurdly important anyways?


If you come into a competitive CS match with an inferior sensor you will have a major disadvantage. It absolutely can turn a good/decent player into a bad one. I've experienced it over and over with every mouse I've tested.

One example with a non-CS game is SC2, which I play at masters level. I need to be able to click on bases as fast and precisely as possible on the small minimap. Now the 3.0 is so heavy that I typically use the FM in SC2. However, the MLT04 quite obviously has a larger area where it registers clicks. This means I can do the clicking quicker and can get away with a little less precision. This probably also contributes to making headshots in CS easier. I don't know if it's possible that this is caused by the size of the array or what, but it kind of feels like that.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> It really isn't, all of these sensors are fine to use


except 9800 and 3988 at high dpis. the smoothing becomes insane


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> except 9800 and 3988 at high dpis. the smoothing becomes insane


Well yeah, true, I almost never consider high cpi because it's unnecessary anyway. But even the 3366 is bad at max CPI. Only mouse that was fine at high CPI for me was with PTE.


----------



## CRITTY

Hello Everyone,

I have really enjoyed this thread and appreciate the time and effort of the posters. I don't have much to add, but have a few statements and a few questions. I currently have the Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 an the Wheel Mouse Optical 1.1. Since I am using Win 10 and am unable to overclock these Mice, should I just tuck them away and wait? I have owned the Logitech 502 and the 303 and just can't use them because of the shape and have returned them. I own the Roccat Kone Pure Optical Military but the shape doesn't agree with me. I just started using the Zowie ZA11 and I really enjoy the shape and it feels great with my wide 19cm hand. If the FM feels good in the hand; would the FM naysayers and proponents of the 3366 give a thumbs up to the FM, since i don't like the shape of the 303 and 502?

Thx


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CRITTY*
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I have really enjoyed this thread and appreciate the time and effort of the posters. I don't have much to add, but have a few statements and a few questions. I currently have the Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 an the Wheel Mouse Optical 1.1. Since I am using Win 10 and am unable to overclock these Mice, should I just tuck them away and wait? I have owned the Logitech 502 and the 303 and just can't use them because of the shape and have returned them. I own the Roccat Kone Pure Optical Military but the shape doesn't agree with me. I just started using the Zowie ZA11 and I really enjoy the shape and it feels great with my wide 19cm hand. If the FM feels good in the hand; would the FM naysayers and proponents of the 3366 give a thumbs up to the FM, since i don't like the shape of the 303 and 502?
> 
> Thx


Use whatever makes you happy. Buy whatever product you want to support.

My posts are constructive criticism. I am not going to tell you not to buy a product because I wouldn't use it.

I still use a Zowie AM-FG. It has a lot of deficiencies, yet I live with it regardless.


----------



## CRITTY

POPUPS said:

"Use whatever makes you happy. Buy whatever product you want to support.

My posts are constructive criticism. I am not going to tell you not to buy a product because I wouldn't use it.

I still use a Zowie AM-FG. It has a lot of deficiencies, yet I live with it regardless."

I bought the FM 3 days ago and will see for myself. I was just wondering about the Microsoft mice and if a person that is pro 3366 would give a thumbs up to the FM 3310's implementation. I like to own the best and and I enjoy putting in the time research in an effort to make an informed choice. In the end if the mouse feels very uncomfortable in my hand then I would use my knowledge to try other highly regarded mice.


----------



## mtzgr

3366 feels just as good (1:1 raw) if not better than the MLT04 to me, and easily edges it out because I can actually use the mouse. I haven't tried the Finalmouse but I don't see it being worth the price tag.

1. 3366
2. MLT04
3. 3095


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> 3366 feels just as good (1:1 raw) if not better than the MLT04 to me, and easily edges it out because I can actually use the mouse. I haven't tried the Finalmouse but I don't see it being worth the price tag.
> 
> 1. 3366
> 2. MLT04
> 3. 3095


You play GO? You used the MLT04 on 500/1000hz I assume?


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You play GO? You used the MLT04 on 500/1000hz I assume?


Yep, playing CS since 2000. I don't play as much anymore.
G502: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uIMxPU6bx0
IE 3.0 on W10: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-WNvXqzB7E

Not that these videos prove anything since this is all subjective anyway.


----------



## Ellie1982

My FM stop working - light is on, but cursor and buttons don;t work. Can i get a schematic diagram for my FM? I can't fix it without it...


----------



## Bitemarks and bloodstains

Don't mess on fixing it, just RMA it.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> except 9800 and 3988 at high dpis. the smoothing becomes insane


I thought both those sensors had smoothing at all DPIs?


----------



## wareya

all he said was that it's insane at high dpi, nothing about at low dpi


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ellie1982*
> 
> My FM stop working - light is on, but cursor and buttons don;t work. Can i get a schematic diagram for my FM? I can't fix it without it...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Don't mess on fixing it, just RMA it.


^^^ the replacements come quick. Much better idea to RMA.


----------



## bond10

Deathadder 4G/2013 definitely has smoothing. It's crazy how I magically aim better with my old IE 3.0 when I've been using the DA2013 for 2 years and just plugged in the IE 3.0 yesterday.


----------



## qsxcv

for 3988 it's a pretty minimal amount below 1600dpi. too lazy to find link where i listed everything


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> for 3988 it's a pretty minimal amount below 1600dpi. too lazy to find link where i listed everything


Then it may be the sensor positioning that's giving me the issue moreso than "smoothing"

BTW is the finalmouse wider than the DA? Or the same?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Deathadder 4G/2013 definitely has smoothing. It's crazy how I magically aim better with my old IE 3.0 when I've been using the DA2013 for 2 years and just plugged in the IE 3.0 yesterday.


So many variables here, like how are you testing it, how optimized your system is, do you have synapse installed, when was the last time you updated the firmware, etc. etc..
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Then it may be the sensor positioning that's giving me the issue moreso than "smoothing"
> 
> BTW is the finalmouse wider than the DA? Or the same?


FM is thinner.


----------



## Ellie1982

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Don't mess on fixing it, just RMA it.


I can't - i'd change a microswitches few month ago... But i can't RMA it anyway.


----------



## doors1991

back in stock amazon.co.uk


----------



## Eutheran

Just got the finalmouse in the mail today from the latest amazon restock. I have used a g303 for about ~3 months now. I play CS:GO extremely competitively. Will give feedback on how I like the mouse. First thing I was surprised by is how large the shell is compared to the g303 while being so light, it almost feels hollow. The clicks on the left and right also feel much lighter than the 303. The scroll wheel gives very minimal feedback on notches and I am not yet sold on the triangular shape of the mouse 4 and 5 buttons.

Going to be using the mouse for practice and matches today so I will report on the sensor performance later.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eutheran*
> 
> Just got the finalmouse in the mail today from the latest amazon restock. I have used a g303 for about ~3 months now. I play CS:GO extremely competitively. Will give feedback on how I like the mouse. First thing I was surprised by is how large the shell is compared to the g303 while being so light, it almost feels hollow. The clicks on the left and right also feel much lighter than the 303. The scroll wheel gives very minimal feedback on notches and I am not yet sold on the triangular shape of the mouse 4 and 5 buttons.
> 
> Going to be using the mouse for practice and matches today so I will report on the sensor performance later.


What league? So I can download your demos.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> for 3988 it's a pretty minimal amount below 1600dpi. too lazy to find link where i listed everything


Actually I'm sure of it now that the DA2013 has noticeable smoothing at 400 dpi ever since I got a 3366 mouse. The 3366 and the MLT04 are very responsive as opposed to the DA2013.


----------



## justnvc

DA 2013 and DA Chroma run 50dpi faster. Are you sure it's not the DPI difference throwing you off?


----------



## mksteez

Would like to try this one really bad but the build quality worries me

Curious what is the LOD ?


----------



## doors1991

" Would like to try this one really bad but the build quality worries me "

Me too.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Actually I'm sure of it now that the DA2013 has noticeable smoothing at 400 dpi ever since I got a 3366 mouse. The 3366 and the MLT04 are very responsive as opposed to the DA2013.


Have you ruled out synapse and firmware as contributing factors?


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Have you ruled out synapse and firmware as contributing factors?


Yes. Maybe something might be wrong with my specific unit? I've only had this one and only deathadder 2013.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *justnvc*
> 
> DA 2013 and DA Chroma run 50dpi faster. Are you sure it's not the DPI difference throwing you off?


I'm aware, I measure DPI on every mouse I purchase









For the 400 dpi step, I measured using the mousetester in the stickies:

DA2013 = 388
IE 3.0 = 411
G303 = 425


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> " Would like to try this one really bad but the build quality worries me "
> 
> Me too.


The build quality of the newest batch of FMs is pretty good. I just got mine, which is marked as mfg'd in August 2015. There's no slop or rattling anywhere. The buttons are really crisp and LMB feels exactly the same as RMB. The mousefeet are smooth and don't snag. The encoder works alright, which is more than I can say about some top-tier mice on the market.


----------



## johnsamuels

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> The build quality of the newest batch of FMs is pretty good. I just got mine, which is marked as mfg'd in August 2015. There's no slop or rattling anywhere. The buttons are really crisp and LMB feels exactly the same as RMB. The mousefeet are smooth and don't snag. The encoder works alright, which is more than I can say about some top-tier mice on the market.


Great to hear cheeselol!

If they'd stop about lenses and secret sauces, and instead focus on quality control, they'll be onto a winner.

How is it performing for you so far cheeselol?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> The build quality of the newest batch of FMs is pretty good. I just got mine, which is marked as mfg'd in August 2015. There's no slop or rattling anywhere. The buttons are really crisp and LMB feels exactly the same as RMB. The mousefeet are smooth and don't snag. The encoder works alright, which is more than I can say about some top-tier mice on the market.


you could probably say the same things about mine, but there are other aspects like the internal construction, which matters much more as far as the durability is concerned. but hey, 3yr warranty


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Just adding an opinion of an SMFC level CSGO player that didn't want to post here.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



10:23 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: you've used a 3366 mouse right?
10:25 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: yea
10:25 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: Can you post a short comparison between that, the KPM, FM, and MLT04 here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/2500_50 - there's an ongoing debate with people who think the 3366 is the best
10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: okay
10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: well
10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its simple
10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the logitech mice have the best precision and best accuracy for tracking at all speeds
10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but theres a delay to the tracking
10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: for processing
10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the delay for processing is less on the kpm, but still present
10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and it has the 2nd best precision and accuracy
10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: fm has no processor on it
10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: so it has a rawinput style through a filter
10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which allows it to have the best feeling precision without any inputlag added
10:29 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: you should say "feels like there's a delay" because some guy was doing some tests and they all showed that the 3366 doesn't have some specific measurable delays that other mice do have
10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the 8bit data type of the mlt04 mice gives it a severe advantage over all mice listed above
10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: it would be competitive at 1000hz, but due to lack of driver support it cannot compete
10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that good enough for you?
10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: this is pure tracking analysis
10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and someone with a fancy 1000fps camera
10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: can verify it
10:30 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: some of that seemed contradictory
10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: nothing i said was contradictory
10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: ;d
10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but
10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: honestly
10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its meh
10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i like finalmouse and intellimouse mlt04
10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because of my ability to make very fast reaction snaps
10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i feel like i have more control over it
10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but who knows maybe that is worse
10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: than having a mouse that tracks flawlessly even with a tracking delay
10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and btw
10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: noone has measured
10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: tracking delays
10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which is one of the most important parts
10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: as you can mod the buttons relatively easily
10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i cant rank those mice
10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: btw
10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because its
10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on a scale from raw .... to -> delayed but flawlessly precise and accurate
10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: it goes
10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: MLT04 -> FM -> KPM -> 3366 mice
10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: so
10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: pick where you want to be
11:03 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: is FM your current mouse?
11:04 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: yea
11:04 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: personally id probably be using the intellimouse if it was 1000hz
11:05 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its still almost as good at 125hz





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



*linked to qsxcv's tests & explanation*
10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i dont think
10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that is a good enough test
10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i can tell you
10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that the only way to measure tracking delay
10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: is to actually test the detail switching directions
10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: from when you switch directions on the mouse
10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: to when the cursor or crosshair switches directions
10:36 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: he's done that too
10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and catch them both in frame
10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on a 1000fps camera
10:36 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: ah
10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: his test isnt conclusive
10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because it doesnt actually test the tracking lag
10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on top of the smoothing lag
10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which is the most important part
10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: for competitive gaming


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> you could probably say the same things about mine, but there are other aspects like the internal construction, which matters much more as far as the durability is concerned. but hey, 3yr warranty


If their symmetrical shell is good it could be a candidate for a transplant.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Just adding an opinion of an SMFC level CSGO player that didn't want to post here.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 10:23 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: you've used a 3366 mouse right?
> 10:25 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: yea
> 10:25 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: Can you post a short comparison between that, the KPM, FM, and MLT04 here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/2500_50 - there's an ongoing debate with people who think the 3366 is the best
> 10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: okay
> 10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: well
> 10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its simple
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the logitech mice have the best precision and best accuracy for tracking at all speeds
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but theres a delay to the tracking
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: for processing
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the delay for processing is less on the kpm, but still present
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and it has the 2nd best precision and accuracy
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: fm has no processor on it
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: so it has a rawinput style through a filter
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which allows it to have the best feeling precision without any inputlag added
> 10:29 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: you should say "feels like there's a delay" because some guy was doing some tests and they all showed that the 3366 doesn't have some specific measurable delays that other mice do have
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the 8bit data type of the mlt04 mice gives it a severe advantage over all mice listed above
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: it would be competitive at 1000hz, but due to lack of driver support it cannot compete
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that good enough for you?
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: this is pure tracking analysis
> 10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and someone with a fancy 1000fps camera
> 10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: can verify it
> 10:30 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: some of that seemed contradictory
> 10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: nothing i said was contradictory
> 10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: ;d
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: honestly
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its meh
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i like finalmouse and intellimouse mlt04
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because of my ability to make very fast reaction snaps
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i feel like i have more control over it
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but who knows maybe that is worse
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: than having a mouse that tracks flawlessly even with a tracking delay
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and btw
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: noone has measured
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: tracking delays
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which is one of the most important parts
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: as you can mod the buttons relatively easily
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i cant rank those mice
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: btw
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because its
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on a scale from raw .... to -> delayed but flawlessly precise and accurate
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: it goes
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: MLT04 -> FM -> KPM -> 3366 mice
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: so
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: pick where you want to be
> 11:03 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: is FM your current mouse?
> 11:04 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: yea
> 11:04 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: personally id probably be using the intellimouse if it was 1000hz
> 11:05 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its still almost as good at 125hz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> *linked to qsxcv's tests & explanation*
> 10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i dont think
> 10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that is a good enough test
> 10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i can tell you
> 10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that the only way to measure tracking delay
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: is to actually test the detail switching directions
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: from when you switch directions on the mouse
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: to when the cursor or crosshair switches directions
> 10:36 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: he's done that too
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and catch them both in frame
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on a 1000fps camera
> 10:36 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: ah
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: his test isnt conclusive
> 10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because it doesnt actually test the tracking lag
> 10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on top of the smoothing lag
> 10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which is the most important part
> 10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: for competitive gaming


That guy sounds just like you.


----------



## Klopfer

I hope the Ambi Version comes out soon ... and the shipping to GER will be fast ...
seems to be the better choice as buying maybe SS Rival 100 ( 3050? ) ...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> If their symmetrical shell is good it could be a candidate for a transplant.
> That guy sounds just like you.


Ehh. He rings everything up to "a processing delay". I don't do that, and there are other things he seems very confident about that I am not. I don't necessarily agree with his opinion on qsxcv's tests either.

This is something he wrote up: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=410245409


----------



## Venrar

Can't seem to order this from Canada. This is the message I get: Sorry, this item can't be shipped to your selected address. Learn more. You may either change the shipping address or delete the item from your order.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ehh. He rings everything up to "a processing delay". I don't do that, and there are other things he seems very confident about that I am not.
> 
> This is something he wrote up: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=410245409


I won't go into detail. It's not worth starting another back and forth...


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnsamuels*
> 
> Great to hear cheeselol!
> 
> If they'd stop about lenses and secret sauces, and instead focus on quality control, they'll be onto a winner.
> 
> How is it performing for you so far cheeselol?


The shape is not my favorite. I prefer mice which are fatter in the back and have a shallower palm curve, so I like the Zowie EC and FK series vs the Finalmouse and ZA series respectively. The ring finger ridge is also an annoyance; it's occupying the space my ring finger wants to be in. The mouse is clearly designed for people who hold their hand flatter in relation to the desk than I do, which is more vertically aligned. I also prefer mice which get narrower towards the front. The Finalmouse gets wider towards the front.

I'm not going to address sensor performance because it's already been beaten to death, but other things (which I consider more objective) about the mouse are done _really_ well. It's lightweight and has smaller feet for low friction, making it really hard to use my EC1-A weapon of choice because I've become so conscious of how dense it really is. I do wish they keep the mouse feet arrangement for the ambi version or at least offer a version which has small feet; judging from the diagram posted previously it looks like they've increased the area of the feet tremendously. Clicks are also superb. nice and tactile with no delay. The mouse is susceptible to bump-clicking but I don't manhandle my mouse enough to cause it to happen.

I'm going to continue using the mouse and see if I can adjust to the shape, because otherwise I think the Finalmouse does things right. I also like that FM has a representative that's active in the community and seems to really listen to feedback.

Edit: forgot to mention how stupid the logo/scrollwheel LED is. It's so bright it's blinding _during the day._ At night it's absolutely horrible, and it LED doesn't shut off when the computer does. I have to unplug it so I can go to sleep. The light also projects out of the front of the mouse along the scrollwheel, so if you're playing in a dark room prepare to have the light hit the monitor/wall in front of you.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> I hope the Ambi Version comes out soon ... and the shipping to GER will be fast ...
> seems to be the better choice as buying maybe SS Rival 100 ( 3050? ) ...


It appears to be in the production phase. Meaning, it should be out in a few months or sooner. To bad there is no stated time line for the release and no alternative firmware.


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Just adding an opinion of an SMFC level CSGO player that didn't want to post here.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 10:23 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: you've used a 3366 mouse right?
> 10:25 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: yea
> 10:25 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: Can you post a short comparison between that, the KPM, FM, and MLT04 here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/2500_50 - there's an ongoing debate with people who think the 3366 is the best
> 10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: okay
> 10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: well
> 10:27 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its simple
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the logitech mice have the best precision and best accuracy for tracking at all speeds
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but theres a delay to the tracking
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: for processing
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the delay for processing is less on the kpm, but still present
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and it has the 2nd best precision and accuracy
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: fm has no processor on it
> 10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: so it has a rawinput style through a filter
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which allows it to have the best feeling precision without any inputlag added
> 10:29 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: you should say "feels like there's a delay" because some guy was doing some tests and they all showed that the 3366 doesn't have some specific measurable delays that other mice do have
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: the 8bit data type of the mlt04 mice gives it a severe advantage over all mice listed above
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: it would be competitive at 1000hz, but due to lack of driver support it cannot compete
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that good enough for you?
> 10:29 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: this is pure tracking analysis
> 10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and someone with a fancy 1000fps camera
> 10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: can verify it
> 10:30 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: some of that seemed contradictory
> 10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: nothing i said was contradictory
> 10:30 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: ;d
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: honestly
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its meh
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i like finalmouse and intellimouse mlt04
> 10:31 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because of my ability to make very fast reaction snaps
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i feel like i have more control over it
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: but who knows maybe that is worse
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: than having a mouse that tracks flawlessly even with a tracking delay
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and btw
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: noone has measured
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: tracking delays
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which is one of the most important parts
> 10:32 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: as you can mod the buttons relatively easily
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i cant rank those mice
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: btw
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because its
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on a scale from raw .... to -> delayed but flawlessly precise and accurate
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: it goes
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: MLT04 -> FM -> KPM -> 3366 mice
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: so
> 10:38 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: pick where you want to be
> 11:03 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: is FM your current mouse?
> 11:04 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: yea
> 11:04 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: personally id probably be using the intellimouse if it was 1000hz
> 11:05 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: its still almost as good at 125hz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> *linked to qsxcv's tests & explanation*
> 10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i dont think
> 10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that is a good enough test
> 10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i can tell you
> 10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that the only way to measure tracking delay
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: is to actually test the detail switching directions
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: from when you switch directions on the mouse
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: to when the cursor or crosshair switches directions
> 10:36 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: he's done that too
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: and catch them both in frame
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on a 1000fps camera
> 10:36 AM - FEEL THE BERN sanders4president: ah
> 10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: his test isnt conclusive
> 10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: because it doesnt actually test the tracking lag
> 10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: on top of the smoothing lag
> 10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: which is the most important part
> 10:37 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: for competitive gaming


Are you sure the weights of the mice aren't affecting your judgment on the sensors? The FM is only 74g so sure you can flick around your mouse pad with ease. What was the 3366 mice you both used? Perhaps the G502 which is pretty much ~65% heavier, much harder to move it..


----------



## Klopfer

anyone knows what Mouse skatez will fit on the finalmouse ?
and @FinalmouseJude will the feets/Skatez on the ambi version the same ?

I never was a "fan" of the original mousefeets and always try to buy directly 1-2 new pair of skatez maybe from takasta ( Hotline Games ) , Corepad or Hyperglide ...
@takasta why there are no "competition" version of the Hotline Games DIY - Mouse Feet ?


----------



## qsxcv

no offense to anyone but a smfc rank right now really doesnt mean much.

also [email protected]
Quote:


> mat_queue_mode should be 2.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond10*
> 
> Are you sure the weights of the mice aren't affecting your judgment on the sensors?


100% sure.
Quote:


> The FM is only 74g so sure you can flick around your mouse pad with ease. What was the 3366 mice you both used? Perhaps the G502 which is pretty much ~65% heavier, much harder to move it..


The 3.0 and DAs are also quite heavy.


----------



## qsxcv

g502 is a good 20g heavier than either of those though


----------



## ranseed

that jstar guy is a joke lmao reads overclock.net guides/post and makes a guide claiming it as his own and to donate to him if its helped. give me a break


----------



## MaximilianKohler

In palm grip all extra weight does is quicken the onset of fatigue. Weight is only really a factor in accuracy in fingertip grip. We've had this discussion so many times. And I've pointed to other examples like the FK1, which is a light mouse with a bad performing sensor.


----------



## Swinbag

Well I've just ordered mine from Amazon UK.

The LMB on my Kone Pure Military has collapsed & lost it's 'Clickyness' - real shame but nothing can be done under warranty as it was an Amazon Warehouse purchase.

Will post some feedback once I've had a good few days getting used to the mouse


----------



## wareya

used/refurbrished computer peripherals = someone's broke and got returned, now they're reselling it

Never buy expensive peripherals used or from third parties unless you're buying them for parts.


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> used/refurbrished computer peripherals = someone's broke and got returned, now they're reselling it
> 
> Never buy expensive peripherals used or from third parties unless you're buying them for parts.


Mice are so cheap that it is worth buying new instead of having to deal with damaged and grimy mice. I'd sure pay $20-30 more for a new mouse which doesn't have someone's dried up grease and dorito dust between the cracks. (see this so much on ebay mice)

Headsets often have people's dandruff and dried skin on them, usually in poor condition too.

Mechanical keyboards are fine, especially since you can easily clean them and replace keycaps and such.


----------



## wareya

Yeah, mech KBs are the easiest thing to salvage parts from, too.


----------



## wareya

I just remembered something that makes me 100% positive that this mouse somehow, for some reason, does automatic surface calibration.

Whenever I switched between two particular surfaces surfaces, for example, between my glossy white desk and my mousepad, the mouse would be unresponsive until it sat on that surface for a few seconds.

There is literally no reason for this to happen under any circumstances unless the mouse is somehow automatically calibrating for the surface that it's on. I don't know what kind of calibration it's doing: changing the liftoff distance, focus, etc. But it was a very reliable phenomenon. I don't know if it's the sensor or MCU that did it, but it was done.

So the response of "recalibration can't be causing my stuttering problem because there is no recalibration" from earlier is invalid.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Why is the sensor performance so absurdly important anyways? Shape, friction and sensor position matter much more unless the implementation has some serious flaws e.g. high button delay, unstable polling, serious delay etc. Just to prove a point, the S3888 in a Kinzu shell feels vastly different from the original mouse in every aspect you can subjectively feel tracking-wise. With the FW2.33 and a solid color mousepad the Kinzuadder feels one of the best mice I've ever used - and I was already going to sell or trash the DA3.5G because it felt awful.
> 
> Fighting over the subjective opinions is useless unless we can conduct a proper ABX blind test using all the sensors in the same shells eliminating all the other factors which could contribute to the subjective feeling of tracking. I am not claiming that there isn't differences in the implementations, just that seeing so varying opinions makes me think that those previously mentioned factors are more important for the user.
> 
> Raw data and the measurements are very interesting to see though and they hold much more value than the subjective opinions... in my opinion


The main difference is that for some things you can adapt but some things will always hinder your performance..


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> no offense to anyone but a smfc rank right now really doesnt mean much.
> 
> also [email protected]


Agreed. Even many players on Global Elite level seem to have no clue..


----------



## Jonagold

Here is the final mod of my FinalMouse 2015 SE. I decided to try to adjust to the 4 ms sensor delay. Seems like it is just impossible to make a flawless mouse..


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This is something he wrote up: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=410245409


so its that guy from esea claiming LucidVirtu and HPET are good.. his opinion is beyond worthless, and its the only person you could find saying FM > G303. kk


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> so its that guy from esea claiming LucidVirtu and HPET are good.. his opinion is beyond worthless, and its the only person you could find saying FM > G303. kk


Lol I was about to post about how FoS that guy is but the level of ridicule is so out of proportion figured it wasn't even worth wasting time on.


----------



## MasterOfMC

I also bought to this FM to test. First 5 minutes in CS with 800dpi I got this sensor bug. It was almost this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM0iTvONtAk
So my cursor was pointing to ground.

Shape is ok but side buttons are little bit in front. But what are first and SE difference? Because I am not sure if this is normal aka first edition or SE aka summer edition.


----------



## mtzgr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MasterOfMC*
> 
> But what are first and SE difference?.


"Improvements."


----------



## banjogood

"10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: fm has no processor on it
10:28 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: so it has a rawinput style through a filter"

and

"10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i dont think
10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that is a good enough test
10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: i can tell you
10:35 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: that the only way to measure tracking delay
10:36 AM - twitch.tv/jStar_TV: is to actually test the detail switching directions"

i think im getting brain cancer
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Lol I was about to post about how FoS that guy is but the level of ridicule is so out of proportion figured it wasn't even worth wasting time on.


lol i know


----------



## MasterOfMC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtzgr*
> 
> "Improvements."


----------



## doors1991

I bought mine today.
let's see if i prefer this over the logitech g502.


----------



## wareya

>Improvements

Better QC. That's it.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I just remembered something that makes me 100% positive that this mouse somehow, for some reason, does automatic surface calibration.
> 
> Whenever I switched between two particular surfaces surfaces, for example, between my glossy white desk and my mousepad, the mouse would be unresponsive until it sat on that surface for a few seconds.
> 
> There is literally no reason for this to happen under any circumstances unless the mouse is somehow automatically calibrating for the surface that it's on. I don't know what kind of calibration it's doing: changing the liftoff distance, focus, etc. But it was a very reliable phenomenon. I don't know if it's the sensor or MCU that did it, but it was done.
> 
> So the response of "recalibration can't be causing my stuttering problem because there is no recalibration" from earlier is invalid.


Do you have the SE or an original with an updated firmware? I believe this was supposed to be corrected in both of those.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> so its that guy from esea claiming LucidVirtu and HPET are good.. his opinion is beyond worthless, and its the only person you could find saying FM > G303. kk


I didn't purposely go around looking for people who've used both. He's just someone who I know used all of them. I'm not vouching for or promoting anything, just adding his opinion.


----------



## wareya

>Do you have the SE or an original with an updated firmware? I believe this was supposed to be corrected in both of those.

I had an SE. 100% positive. It had the Finalmouse branding on the bottom plastic, not labelled over.


----------



## Buttnose

@FinalmouseJude whats the word on making replacement mousefeet available? I tried to get in touch with puretrak/corepad/tiger/hyperglide last week to see if they would be interested in producing something for FM but didn't get a single reply.







Perhaps if Finalmouse approached them directly about the matter we might see something happen?


----------



## Melan

MS-3 hyperglides are the only "replacement" you'll ever need. They fit FM just fine afaik.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Here is the final mod of my FinalMouse 2015 SE. I decided to try to adjust to the 4 ms sensor delay. Seems like it is just impossible to make a flawless mouse..


Your mouse looks like a totaled car lol


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Here is the final mod of my FinalMouse 2015 SE. I decided to try to adjust to the 4 ms sensor delay. Seems like it is just impossible to make a flawless mouse..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your mouse looks like a totaled car lol
Click to expand...

That's what a tricked up Viper looks like, until you add the colour(s) then it's mean as HELL







.


----------



## bank1997

Hi,

I heard many good stuff about this mouse and also bad stuff.

Many people said it won't last more than 6 months, Whoever own this mouse and can use more than 6 months, can you please report.

Thx, I am deciding whether to get it or not


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bank1997*
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I heard many good stuff about this mouse and also bad stuff.
> 
> Many people said it won't last more than 6 months, Whoever own this mouse and can use more than 6 months, can you please report.
> 
> Thx, I am deciding whether to get it or not


If you are fortunate enough to live within the borders of the United States then buy it from Amazon because their retail service are quite easy for purchase and return (if you're not happy with it).


----------



## bank1997

No, I am in ASIA, the delivery cost quite expensive


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bank1997*
> 
> I heard many good stuff about this mouse and also bad stuff.


You'll find that a common theme on here.


----------



## wareya

>No, I am in ASIA, the delivery cost quite expensive

I would not recommend this mouse for someone who has a difficult time returning it for a replacement.


----------



## bank1997

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >No, I am in ASIA, the delivery cost quite expensive
> 
> I would not recommend this mouse for someone who has a difficult time returning it for a replacement.


I heard fm se will last longer than 1st edition whoever has experienced with fm se that last longer than 6months?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bank1997*
> 
> I heard fm se will last longer than 1st edition whoever has experienced with fm se that last longer than 6months?


I thought I heard a particular streamer say his SE died. I think he had a 1st edition die, then a 2nd edition [SE] die. Now he is getting another FinalMouse now that they are in stock.

I wouldn't want to go through at least 3 RMAs a year. That much money for something that will eventually die... I still have an Intellimouse and Diamondback from over a decade ago that still work.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I thought I heard a particular streamer say his SE died. I think he had a 1st edition die, then a 2nd edition [SE] die. Now he is getting another FinalMouse now that they are in stock.
> 
> I wouldn't want to go through at least 3 RMAs a year. That much money for something that will eventually die... I still have an Intellimouse and Diamondback from over a decade ago that still work.


I would rather have the product last years as well all intact. However a 3 year warranty is a big thing. Issue? They'll hit you with a new one. If the customer service was crappy then i'd think about it. However they are good about responding & helping out. So i have no issue, The QC will come through eventually. Or they'll loose too much money in replacements. They are on the right track.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> I would rather have the product last years as well all intact. However a 3 year warranty is a big thing. Issue? They'll hit you with a new one. If the customer service was crappy then i'd think about it. However they are good about responding & helping out. So i have no issue, The QC will come through eventually. Or they'll loose too much money in replacements. They are on the right track.


They charge ~$70 for a ODM mouse and offer a 3 year warranty.

They didn't have to design the mold, they didn't pay for software/drivers, they use a lower end MCU, etc. They make a lot of money selling this mouse.

Is this mouse worth sending 1-4 mice back a year until the warranty is over?


----------



## qsxcv

real question is whether they'll still be around in 3 yrs


----------



## wareya

they will if you buy their product and they don't get sued into oblivion for malvertising


----------



## FinalmouseJude

There was an issue that would cause the original edition sensors to die, but the Summer Edition fixed that. We havent seen a single SE go bad electrically! That being said we are still constantly improving the industrial design end, as well as obviously working to get the ambi out.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## qsxcv

posted this before, but a capacitor in mine had almost no solder on one of the pins and one day the mouse just didnt work. added solder and it works fine now... but still


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> posted this before, but a capacitor in mine had almost no solder on one of the pins and one day the mouse just didnt work. added solder and it works fine now... but still


We made the switch to a more advanced wave soldering procedure at some point, I would have assumed it was with the factory change. But yes, something like that is what I would call a QC issue and is what we are constantly improving on. Things become easier when volume becomes higher believe it or not, since it forces us to control every facet of production such as PCB fab, etc...

Sometime next year my hope is that we have stronger production overwatch, and a stronger overseas logistics presence. This is very hard to do for companies that operate under 100mill/yr revenues.

But frankly industrial design on the original FM was the area that had the most room for improvement, this is the reason the ambi already has a more consistent assembly... it is just much better tooled since we designed it from the ground up.

We are getting close to ambi release as well so Ill give any updates once I hear things.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> They charge ~$70 for a ODM mouse and offer a 3 year warranty.
> 
> They didn't have to design the mold, they didn't pay for software/drivers, they use a lower end MCU, etc. They make a lot of money selling this mouse.
> 
> Is this mouse worth sending 1-4 mice back a year until the warranty is over?


I have only had an issue with 1 mouse. Since then i've had no problems. So it depends on the person really. Would i send 1-4 back if i kept having issues? If that comes to be, i will let you know.

The SE is still much better off than the original product. This much we know.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

To be honest, I'm still concerned that Jude thinks "x" factor is ok because it's not a problem for him. This is one of the primary reasons why there are so many extremely flawed mice IMO.

One good example is the Aurora. The lack of contours on the side are what make the shape so highly favored by me. Whereas other people had complaints about the tapering of the rear. They would prefer a rear more like the WMO. Well the rear that they prefer has zero impact on me, negative or positive. And the lack of contours on the side has zero impact on them. So the right direction here for both parties is very obvious. But if you just had me or them create a mouse without the inputs from each other, the results would be something unnecessarily flawed. And this is a problem that the vast majority of gaming mice have.

You CAN make a shape & size that is going to be the most ideal and least problematic for the most amount of people. And this is a design philosophy that hasn't been done with any decent gaming mouse.

I personally haven't been able to find one for cheap, but I don't think I've seen a single person who dislikes the WMO shape. But that's not to say the WMO shape can't be improved without negatively impacting people who currently like it.


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> ....
> We are getting close to ambi release as well so Ill give any updates once I hear things.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


any "near" Date u can tell about ambi in EU ?
I need a new mouse , im not in love with gladius , za13 , torq X5 , AM , G303 , Avior ...


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> To be honest, I'm still concerned that Jude thinks "x" factor is ok because it's not a problem for him. This is one of the primary reasons why there are so many extremely flawed mice IMO.
> 
> One good example is the Aurora. The lack of contours on the side are what make the shape so highly favored by me. Whereas other people had complaints about the tapering of the rear. They would prefer a rear more like the WMO. Well the rear that they prefer has zero impact on me, negative or positive. And the lack of contours on the side has zero impact on them. So the right direction here for both parties is very obvious. But if you just had me or them create a mouse without the inputs from each other, the results would be something unnecessarily flawed. And this is a problem that the vast majority of gaming mice have.
> 
> You CAN make a shape & size that is going to be the most ideal and least problematic for the most amount of people. And this is a design philosophy that hasn't been done with any decent gaming mouse.
> 
> I personally haven't been able to find one for cheap, but I don't think I've seen a single person who dislikes the WMO shape. But that's not to say the WMO shape can't be improved without negatively impacting people who currently like it.


agree. same goes for logitech g303... if they remove the sharp edges, people who like the mouse wouldn't mind while people who don't would find it more comfortable.


----------



## Skyval

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I personally haven't been able to find one for cheap, but I don't think I've seen a single person who dislikes the WMO shape. But that's not to say the WMO shape can't be improved without negatively impacting people who currently like it.


Do you have a problem with ebay? That's where I got mine. The seller I bought from, dacheng2009, doesn't seem to sell them anymore, but searching for "wheel mouse optical" still brings up several options for less than $20.00 with free shipping.


----------



## wareya

>searching for "wheel mouse optical" still brings up several options for less than $20.00 with free shipping.

fakes and old QC rejects

afaik this is the one positively legit listing that stays up http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Microsoft-IntelliMouse-Explorer-Legends-Edition-3-0-Mouse-/311305057865


----------



## Skyval

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >searching for "wheel mouse optical" still brings up several options for less than $20.00 with free shipping.
> 
> fakes and old QC rejects


Even Takasta? Granted those are modified and a bit more expensive (~$25--$30) and will probably take a while to get delivered from Hong Kong.

I bought from dacheng2009 after seeing some posts on ESReality that seem to back him up. The internals look correct. Then again my first from him didn't last long (M1 died), but the second has lasted since then, and he sent it for free without even requesting the first to be returned. I was mostly interested in testing the shape anyway. I actually thought it'd be too small, didn't expect to fall in love with it.

I can understand the hesitation, it does seem like a bit of a crapshoot.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I was hoping for something $5 or less at a local store, since I'm not going to be using it since it only has 3 buttons. I'd only be testing the shape and it would be non-returnable.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Used mice exist.


----------



## wareya

used mice aren't typically sold by megasellers with free shipping


----------



## qsxcv

plenty of used ones on ebay.

these new ones are mostly >$20
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121769416246?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true#shpCntId
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Microsoft-Wheel-Optical-Mouse-Left-Right-Hand-Fast-Scrolling-White-Gray-/231695673115?hash=item35f223671b
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-FACTORY-SEALED-Microsoft-Wheel-Optical-Mouse-White-Gray-/201436569244?hash=item2ee68e1e9c
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Microsoft-Optical-Technology-Reliable-Wheel-Mouse-Right-or-Left-Hand-PC-Mac-/271883554256?hash=item3f4d85cdd0
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Microsoft-Optical-Wheel-Mouse-New-/221874147572?hash=item33a8bad0f4
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICROSOFT-RIGHT-OR-LEFT-HAND-3-BUTTON-PS-2-USB-WHEEL-MOUSE-OPTICAL-D66-00069-/371355021469?hash=item56767bf09d
superold one? lot#0121 = from 2001? wow
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Microsoft-Wheel-Mouse-Optical-PS2-USB-in-Box-Mac-Windpws-/291569332641?hash=item43e2e2f1a1


----------



## MaximilianKohler

All those are expensive, and/or have expensive shipping. I looked in a few thrift shops nearby but they didn't have many mice.


----------



## MasterOfMC

Now I have tested this FM few days. Case is ok not too big. Side buttons are little bit too front. That way it's difficult to push that one. Sensor is ok but these leds which are always on is not ok. Weight is very good but mouse seems to take to catch a mouse mat so it's not the best sliding.


----------



## Eutheran

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What league? So I can download your demos.


I play ESEA Open here:

https://play.esea.net/users/693736

I IGL for my team, I am ~12 RWS Global.

For your sake don't watch my demo's you should download TSM/Fnatic/Envy demo's if you want to learn about the game and get better.

So for the meat and potatoes about this mouse:

To start with the positives, the first thing I noticed when I removed the Finalmouse from its packaging was the weight. I loved how evenly distributed the weight was across the mouse, when comparing it to my back heavy G303 I thought that Finalmouse(I will be using the abbreviation FM from here on out) really picked a winner of a shell to house their internals. To be honest I was taken aback by how _large_ the shell was compared to the weight. I can only image the potential this mouse has to save weight with an ambi version. The clicks on the mouse 1 and 2 also require about 2/3 the pushing power that the G303 switches require. The finger grooves the mouse 1 and 2 have are also extremely lovely and mimic the Deathadder very well, I think both are the best sculpted mouse 1 and 2's I have felt in quite a long time. The ergonomic sculpting was also excellent for a solid palm grip user but I found myself wanting when it came to how I held the mouse (a more fingertip/palm grip) so I will not count that as a positive or negative.

The 3310 implementation is definitely solid, although I don't see it as being better or worse than the 3366. The mouse itself felt extremely stable and I hardly noticed any difference between the two sensors, while I am by no means a sensor guru I have about 1,400 hours of CS:GO under my belt with several mice (FK1, Rival, Deathadder Chroma, G303, EC2-A) and I felt as though they are on par with each other, the 3310 with perhaps a bit more smoothing and slightly less of a raw feel than the 3366 (but that might be due to the 500hz vs 1000hz polling rate). As a side-note the mouse also registers its clicks on average 3.9MS slower than the G303.

Now the negatives, the glossy parts of the mouse on either side would gather dirt very quickly and have to constantly be cleaned; additionally they would make my hand slightly sweaty after short periods of gripping the mouse (thought it didn't really impact my aim in any measurable sense the sensation was a bit distracting). The mouse 4 and 5 buttons were also triangular and uncomfortable to use, as someone who has grenades bound to these keys it is important that they feel second nature to me when I press them, to have them protrude as much as they did was a bit too much for me. The mouse skates were also a tad on the thin side and I would feel the left side of the mouse drag across my mouse-pad as I lifted and moved my mouse, when grounded however the glide was excellent. Lastly, the LED *needs* to be able to turn off when the computer it is attached to is powered down. The fact that the mouse is incapable of this when so many other small details were clearly and carefully refined is extremely frustrating. The mouse wheel was forgettable and average.

In summation I can say that while this mouse won't be my daily driver anytime soon (in fact I have gone back to the G303) it has proven to me that the idea FM has a company is extremely solid: their sensor implementation, build quality, extended warranty all exceed or are on par with current top mice. I am excited to pick up and try the ambi version when it is released, solid first attempt by what looks to be a great company.

TL;DR: Great first try, sticking with my G303, hoping the ambi version will knock me out of my socks.


----------



## jung1e

Just received the mouse today and like alot of other people said. I really like the sensor implementation but QA is a huge issue right now. My mouse has thin paint/rubber. Attached is a photo where the LED shines through. Also the side button shapes (pyramids) really bother me but hopefully that will be fixed in the 2016 revision with a swap out to omron switches. Also while the sensor works really well for the most part, I had the same issue as someone else where the sensor will once in a while swipe up to the sky or down to the ground. For now, I am returning the mouse back to Amazon but may revisit once the 2016 revision is out. Also the scrollwheel wobbles like others have mentioned. Listed below is the picture of the paint on my mouse and a few videos i found demonstrating other issues i talked about.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmCJ2YBnSGo for scrollwheel wobble


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jung1e*
> 
> Just received the mouse today and like alot of other people said. I really like the sensor implementation but QA is a huge issue right now. My mouse has thin paint/rubber. Attached is a photo where the LED shines through. Also the side button shapes (pyramids) really bother me but hopefully that will be fixed in the 2016 revision with a swap out to omron switches. Also while the sensor works really well for the most part, I had the same issue as someone else where the sensor will once in a while swipe up to the sky or down to the ground. For now, I am returning the mouse back to Amazon but may revisit once the 2016 revision is out. Also the scrollwheel wobbles like others have mentioned. Listed below is the picture of the paint on my mouse and a few videos i found demonstrating other issues i talked about.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/2593360/width/500/height/1000
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmCJ2YBnSGo for scrollwheel wobble


QCK + 3310 sensor pretty common bug-out problem sadly.


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> QCK + 3310 sensor pretty common bug-out problem sadly.


Hmm really didnt know just cause ive never had a problem with it on my Zowie mice


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> QCK + 3310 sensor pretty common bug-out problem sadly.


With all 3310 mice? I've a QCK and used a number of 3310 mice, including an original FM and never noticed anything like this. Any idea on the cause?


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> With all 3310 mice? I've a QCK and used a number of 3310 mice, including an original FM and never noticed anything like this. Any idea on the cause?


I've just found with slicker / tighter weave mouse-pads like the QCK the 3010 and occasional 3090 sensors flip out and look at the sky/ground on certain swipes. I suspect it to be a lens / lod problem rather then the an actual sensor issue.

I really can't tell past that, its simply been an observation. But its one of the reasons I've just avoid 3310 mice.

I will note it does depend on your sensitivity and its the reason its pretty well documented or rather complaineda bout by CSGO players who play on 50+/360cm.


----------



## dlano

Strange... I play with 400dpi on 1.8, which is about 58cm I believe, and can't say I've noticed with my QCK or my current Zowie G-SR on any of my 3310 mice. Must be a pretty random occurrence then I take it?


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jung1e*
> 
> Also the scrollwheel wobbles like others have mentioned. Listed below is the picture of the paint on my mouse and a few videos i found demonstrating other issues i talked about.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmCJ2YBnSGo for scrollwheel wobble


scrollwheel-wobble could be eliminated once and for all, if the companies started to take care of the right diameter of the axis.
it just had to be a bit thicker, so that it sits very firmly inside the encoder hole.


----------



## invena

I just picked one up and i'll report with my findings


----------



## aerowalk30

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> Strange... I play with 400dpi on 1.8, which is about 58cm I believe, and can't say I've noticed with my QCK or my current Zowie G-SR on any of my 3310 mice. Must be a pretty random occurrence then I take it?


Not at all, I cant be bothered to find it at the moment but the amount of complaints on ESEA are absurd for such a wide-spread sensor. I mean I've even seen Olofmeister from fnatic have the same problem occur with his Rival during a match.

I haven't had the issue with my EC series but there's been a couple complaints as well on this forum with the issue.


----------



## Sencha

I must admit I haven't had any problems with my 3310s at 70cm/360 but I replace my pads often so maybe that is playing a factor.


----------



## treav0r

Got my FM2015 a few days ago, so here is my opinion:

Build quality: I expected worse. it is put together quite well, but mine has a few scratches right out of the box, but nothing to worry about.

Buttons/Scroll: Buttons are nice and light, pretty good feedback compared to a deathadder and the scroll wheel is very smooth with very light notches, but the click is kinda hard on it. The sidebuttons have a weird shape, but overall it feels good.

Sensor/performance: Excellent and good tracking. good glide on the mousepad aswell due to its light weight.

Shape: Now here comes the main problem: i simply cannot hold the mouse naturally. I have 20.5 cm hands and i am using claw grip. my ringfinger and pinky curl up quite a bit and on the mouse there is this ledge on the right side pressing in on my ring finger, wich hurts quite a bit.









so i guess i'll be waiting for an ambi version and using my ZA11 till then


----------



## CRITTY

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> Got my FM2015 a few days ago, so here is my opinion:
> 
> Build quality: I expected worse. it is put together quite well, but mine has a few scratches right out of the box, but nothing to worry about.
> 
> Buttons/Scroll: Buttons are nice and light, pretty good feedback compared to a deathadder and the scroll wheel is very smooth with very light notches, but the click is kinda hard on it. The sidebuttons have a weird shape, but overall it feels good.
> 
> Sensor/performance: Excellent and good tracking. good glide on the mousepad aswell due to its light weight.
> 
> Shape: Now here comes the main problem: i simply cannot hold the mouse naturally. I have 20.5 cm hands and i am using claw grip. my ringfinger and pinky curl up quite a bit and on the mouse there is this ledge on the right side pressing in on my ring finger, wich hurts quite a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so i guess i'll be waiting for an ambi version and using my ZA11 till then


Same exact thing for me. When I hold it naturally the mouse is angled to the left; when I move the mouse left and right it moves diagonally left and right. Back to the ZA11 as well.


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treav0r*
> 
> Shape: Now here comes the main problem: i simply cannot hold the mouse naturally. I have 20.5 cm hands and i am using claw grip. my ringfinger and pinky curl up quite a bit and on the mouse there is this ledge on the right side pressing in on my ring finger, wich hurts quite a bit.


I have 18-19cm hands and I cant even put both fingers on the side under the ridge. My ring finger has to go on top of the mouse right next to the right mouse button


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

I palm, the right ridge for me is solid(ring finger sits nicely on it). Could just depend on the person, mine are 21.5 cm & i find the mouse comfy.


----------



## aerowalk30

Its the same issue people ran across with the G400, its a real shame. Has anyone tried sanding down that lip like people did with their G400's?


----------



## doors1991

I received mine today.
The box came crushed and the button m1 is loose.
it's unacceptable, i paid 83 euros,very disappointing,
i will return the mouse.


----------



## Sencha

Are those two separate issues or related?


----------



## doors1991

I do not know,maybe both


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> I do not know,maybe


Hello Doors,

You should contact support explaining the situation. It is unacceptable that a product arrives clearly damaged by transit. They will make sure to take care of the situation and expedite a solution at no added expense.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> I do not know,maybe both


I'm sorry to hear that....always a disappointment. But as you can see you're in good hands.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

My SE has developed a double clicking bug


----------



## qsxcv

does the second click happen when pressing or when releasing?


----------



## kicksome

Is there any pics of the new ambi one coming out?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> My SE has developed a double clicking bug


If you decide to investigate and fix the issue yourself just let support know that you got the go ahead from me and that your warranty won't be voided, this way you can always just get a replacement.

Let me know if the issue is shim related or switch related. I believe you had an older SE which may have used shims and sometimes makes things get iffy. But double click is usually always the switch itself.

-Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

It happens when releasing the button. It's happening on my left click but not the right.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Is there any pics of the new ambi one coming out?


A good amount have been released yes.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It happens when releasing the button. It's happening on my left click but not the right.


i have the same issue on my g100s with d2f-01f's

in principle this sort of issue can happen to any switch on any mice using the normal pin configuration (ground, pullup input to mcu, not connected). furthermore it's not really solvable via firmware without adding a huge delay to button releases; on my g100s i've seen a second click 60ms after initial release

@finalmousejude
you guys could be the first to do debouncing "perfectly".

http://www.eng.utah.edu/~cs5780/debouncing.pdf
see bottom of pg11.

it's trivial to implement. top pin remains ground, middle pin remains pullup input, but make the buttom pin pullup input as well . the only cost is that you'll use an additional mcu pin for each switch done using this method.

in the firmware, basically do it like

initialization
state = not clicked

main loop:
if (state is not clicked and middle pin is low)
state = clicked
elseif (state is clicked and bottom pin is low)
state = not clicked

there's no X milliseconds of "debouncing time" anywhere. button presses are as responsive as possible and button releases are only less responsive by the time it takes for the moving thing inside the switch to transition (~1ms iirc)


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i have the same issue on my g100s with d2f-01f's
> 
> in principle this sort of issue can happen to any switch on any mice using the normal pin configuration (ground, pullup input to mcu, not connected). furthermore it's not really solvable via firmware without adding a huge delay to button releases; on my g100s i've seen a second click 60ms after initial release
> 
> @finalmousejude
> you guys could be the first to do debouncing "perfectly".
> 
> http://www.eng.utah.edu/~cs5780/debouncing.pdf
> see bottom of pg11.
> 
> it's trivial to implement. top pin remains ground, middle pin remains pullup input, but make the buttom pin pullup input as well . the only cost is that you'll use an additional mcu pin for each switch done using this method.
> 
> in the firmware, basically do it like
> 
> initialization
> state = not clicked
> 
> main loop:
> if (state is not clicked and middle pin is low)
> state = clicked
> elseif (state is clicked and bottom pin is low)
> state = not clicked
> 
> there's no X milliseconds of "debouncing time" anywhere. button presses are as responsive as possible and button releases are only less responsive by the time it takes for the moving thing inside the switch to transition (~1ms iirc)


If they were to do that it would also mean I'd might bother with this mouse.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It happens when releasing the button. It's happening on my left click but not the right.


Sounds like the typical quality issue with Chinese Omron switches.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> If they were to do that it would also mean I'd might bother with this mouse.


I would think of buying their symmetrical mouse if they offer a variant with a 3320, no MCU filtering, that particular method of dealing with switches, an ALPS encoder, a configuration tool, a better MCU and a non braided cable.

I guess that won't be happening as that's too long of a list.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Sounds like the typical quality issue with Chinese Omron switches.
> 
> I would think of buying their symmetrical mouse if they offer a variant with a 3320, no MCU filtering, that particular method of dealing with switches, an ALPS encoder, a configuration tool, a better MCU and a non braided cable.
> 
> I guess that won't be happening as that's too long of a list.


You haven't even tested the 3320 yet and already want it? For what reason? If the 3320 has pcs < 4 m/s it's terrible for me, and it being a descendant of the AM010 makes that very likely.


----------



## qsxcv

3320 has roughly same malfunction speed as am010.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Sounds like the typical quality issue with Chinese Omron switches.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i have the same issue on my g100s with d2f-01f's
> 
> in principle this sort of issue can happen to any switch on any mice using the normal pin configuration (ground, pullup input to mcu, not connected). furthermore it's not really solvable via firmware without adding a huge delay to button releases; on my g100s i've seen a second click 60ms after initial release


----------



## Soo8

@FinalmouseJude How wide is the FM ambi at its slimmest point, indentation? If you can't disclose the information that's understandable.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> You haven't even tested the 3320 yet and already want it? For what reason? If the 3320 has pcs < 4 m/s it's terrible for me, and it being a descendant of the AM010 makes that very likely.


I would want a lower cost alternative with a PMW-3320 instead of a "nerfed" ADNS-9800 [3310]. The 3050 and 3090 are too old. I think the 3050 has too low of a resolution. The 3320 would be a better option if the SROM is updated to one that Logitech uses in the G302 and G402. The 3320's malfunction speed isn't an issue for me. The stable frame rate and less smoothing (or no smoothing) is more important to me.

However, many players like to flick their mice faster than what is necessary, therefore they would want a 3310. Which means the 3320 variant would only sell based on price and its tone down design.

Ideally the 3366 would be the way to go, but that isn't happening for awhile.


----------



## Pragmatist

I ordered mine today, FinalMouse summer edition 2015. What's the difference between the summer edition and the regular one?


----------



## wareya

The SE is just the second manufacturing of the normal one.


----------



## Pragmatist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> The SE is just the second manufacturing of the normal one.


Oh, I see. Thank you!


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude whats the word on making replacement mousefeet available? I tried to get in touch with puretrak/corepad/tiger/hyperglide last week to see if they would be interested in producing something for FM but didn't get a single reply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps if Finalmouse approached them directly about the matter we might see something happen?


bump


----------



## kicksome

I'm hanging for this ambi version


----------



## PU skunk

Don't have double click but my FM developed the dreaded "set down click". Well it's not really dreaded as in "brain eating amoebas". I just right-click a lot now.


----------



## Pragmatist

I got my FM today and I've been gaming for an hour. The shape is something I have to get used to by playing with it more, but I'm really happy with the sensor and the wright and left click. Especially since I've been using the Zowie FK1 were the buttons are too stiff for my taste. However, unlike the FK1 shape were your fingers are leaning downwards, you have your fingers upwards with the FM and that's something that'll take time getting used to.

The side buttons are really bad, though. They are too high up, the shape is really bad and I feel like they're going to break pretty fast.

*Edit: Reminded myself why I should never judge a product unless I've used it for days if not weeks. I am no longer happy with the FinalMouse 2015.
*

I will get the Mionix Castor on Monday and will decide which one will be my daily driver.


----------



## Kmagekris

Had the mouse for 4 days... Coming from a g100s...the shape is great. Led on back looks like the sun is glaring at me but its ok cause if i put my hand on it , it goes away XD. Tracking is good, scroll wheel a little wobbly but works fine. all buttons click fine.Glides really well on my qck+ and the weight is just right. Think i finally found my g100s replacement =)


----------



## kevinzone

so is the fact that the mouse has sensor latency true ? is it worth getting the mouse if it is?


----------



## Pragmatist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> -Snip-
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


My left mouse button is squishy after just *one* day in use. I was happy with it early on, but even the sensor feels off compared to my zowie FK1 after playing with it a lot for the past days.
I thought that I could ignore that the left mouse button was so soft, but it is very annoying to say the least. The sound of the left and wright buttons is different as well because the wright button haven't become as squishy "yet".

I will contact your support and ask them how to RMA this faulty product that didn't last a day.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevinzone*
> 
> so is the fact that the mouse has sensor latency true ? is it worth getting the mouse if it is?


it has 2.5ms delay over other 3310 sensor mice that operate at 1000hz

2ms delay from firmware smoothing and 0.5ms delay from operating at 500hz instead of 1000hz

the 3310 itself has 2ms extra latency over what it could theoretically achieve, so the finalmouse has 4.5ms of extra latency over what it could theoretically achieve

4.5ms is where latency can start to become tangible for some people, so I'll tell you that you should compare the sensor latency to the shape and weight. If you want the finalmouse's shape and insanely low weight, and aren't a latency nut, the finalmouse might be right for you.

And later finalmouse products _might_ get rid of their extra smoothing, but who knows.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

would be nice to get some firmware to play with.

Hang on a minute, drivers, and updaters, here's an idea?









Well, no drivers, bur firmware / onboard EPROM updates would be nice.


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> 0.5ms delay from operating at 500hz instead of 1000hz


I've seen you state this before, how do you arrive there? For continuous motion the difference is 1ms.


----------



## qsxcv

depends on the exact definition of input lag

if you're talking about
1. if you have a well-defined physical event at some random time x, at what time does the mouse respond?
for 500hz the response would be ideally 0 to 2ms later, for 1000hz the response would be ideally 0 to 1ms later
so on average 500hz responds 1ms later and 100hz responds 0.5ms later

i say ideally because it also depends on the timing between sensor motion reads and usb polling. for instance in g303/502 that's like 800us.
2. or you could talk about: when the mouse sends a packet of data, up to what time does that data correspond.
under this definition, ideally, there's no difference in latency between 500, 1000, 125hz or whatever.
this is the sort of thing measured by mousecomparator


----------



## HAGGARD

I see how those make sense, but I'm talking about neither. For a continuous flow of data 1kHz means an update each milisecond and 500Hz means an update each 2 miliseconds. And frankly, "tracking delay" really only gets important for continuous motion.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pragmatist*
> 
> My left mouse button is squishy after just *one* day in use. I was happy with it early on, but even the sensor feels off compared to my zowie FK1 after playing with it a lot for the past days.
> I thought that I could ignore that the left mouse button was so soft, but it is very annoying to say the least. The sound of the left and wright buttons is different as well because the wright button haven't become as squishy "yet".
> 
> I will contact your support and ask them how to RMA this faulty product that didn't last a day.


FinalMouse made a design choice not to use the proper length plunger that contacts the mouse switch. They chose to extend the plunger with a small "sticker" that makes contact with the button switch. This sticker obviously is subject to coming loose, shifting, falling off etc.

Had they done the proper thing of making sure the plungers were the correct length, they wouldn't need these shims, and even on the side buttons once adjusted feel much better. These blatant corner cutting design choices are why I can't recommend this mouse to anyone.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> I see how those make sense, but I'm talking about neither. For a continuous flow of data 1kHz means an update each milisecond and 500Hz means an update each 2 miliseconds. And frankly, "tracking delay" really only gets important for continuous motion.


yea but update period =/= input lag


----------



## HAGGARD

How so? If you look at any point X in the duration of the motion the input data created in that moment will be on your screen at least a milisecond earlier with 1kHz compared to 500Hz ("at least" because that milisecond could of course then make the difference between that input making it in time for a frame or not).


----------



## wareya

because you don't make inputs at update polls, you make inputs at arbitrary points in time. Inputs at arbitrary points in time can be delayed by a window of time between zero seconds and the length of the polling rate. If you make a swipe in mousecomparator with a 1000hz mouse and a 500hz mouse that are otherwise identica, you should see a 0.5ms difference (unless the mouse has framerate dependent smoothing or some other flaw, etc)

Basically, a 1ms difference is actually the worst case scenario between 1000hz and 500hz. That's when you've made inputs only right after the last poll has finished.

When you're making a continuous motion across an entire poll, the average point in time that the inputs come from is the same as the average point in time for an instantaneous input that's randomly timed.


----------



## HAGGARD

What about these inputs? They happen at point X and are presented to you at point X+1ms at 1kHz and X+2ms at 500Hz.


Worst case scenario for arbitrarily timed events as per poll time window is actually 2ms difference, hm?


----------



## wareya

Strawman: Move that over just a little bit and the 1000hz will hit 1ms latency, the same as the 500hz chunk.

For 50% of inputs, 500hz has the same latency as 1000hz. For the other 50% of inputs, 500hz has 1ms more latency than 1000hz. Therefore, the *actual total* latency difference is 0.5ms.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Worst case scenario for arbitrarily timed events as per poll time window is actually 2ms difference, hm?


Wat? No. Never. Not at ANY point in time EVER. Maximum systemic latency difference is 1ms, period.


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> For 50% of inputs, 500hz has the same latency as 1000hz. For the other 50% of inputs, 500hz has 1ms more latency than 1000hz. Therefore, the *actual total* latency difference is 0.5ms.


Thanks, this makes sense.
Quote:


> Wat? No. Never. Not at ANY point in time EVER. Maximum systemic latency difference is 1ms, period.


Well, I mean, this is not a fair scenario but worst case is: Input happens right before poll = near instantaneous report 0ms vs input happens right after last poll = full poll window (2ms). Of course you are then looking at different input/poll timings there so I see what you mean, the comparison limps, just saying the possible maximum is always zero vs. full poll window.


----------



## wareya

worst case is, mouse buffers samples from the sensor improperly and makes its latency for given inputs pretty much always be a full polling frame

That's an obvious mistake, but there are many other kinds of mistake that are more subtle like firmware smoothing that adds more latency on lower framerates (lol finalmouse)

So when you're looking at the polling rates themselves you have to be fair and imagine a fair world where both examples are on optimal ground. Perfectly in sync in every way.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Well, I mean, this is not a fair scenario but worst case is: Input happens right before poll = near instantaneous report 0ms vs input happens right after last poll = full poll window (2ms).


Quoting to put back into context.

Reconsider this with what I said at the top of the post:
T0
1000hz: 1ms
500hz: 2ms
T0.99...
1000hz: ~0ms
500hz: ~1ms
T1
1000hz: 1ms
500hz: 1ms
T1.99...
Both: 0ms

When the world is fair, the maximal latency difference is 1ms

when they go out of sync, the 500hz can fall further behind at times, yes, but so can the 1000hz if the desync goes in the opposite direction. When you compare extreme cases this, you should eliminate variables that go either way and cancel out. Otherwise, when you go and compare extreme cases, you're not comparing information that's inherent to what you're comparing.

I got a little hasty with the tone of text since I didn't understand where you were coming from, but I guess it's just where you're drawing the line with what's valid.


----------



## HAGGARD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Otherwise, when you go and compare extreme cases, you're not comparing information that's inherent to what you're comparing.


Yeah, pretty much. My argument is not dependent on 1kHz vs. 500hz there, the "maximum poll latency" could also occur when comparing two mice operating at 500Hz...
Although, looking at an arbitrarily-timed input event, isn't the likeliness of that input happening just before a poll happens larger for 1ms intervals than for 2ms ones? Increasing the chance that single events experience near-zero poll latency? Or am I ignoring something mathematical again, for instance the likeliness of that input falling just after the poll also being larger than with 2ms and that somehow cancelling out?


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HAGGARD*
> 
> Although, looking at an arbitrarily-timed input event, isn't the likeliness of that input happening just before a poll happens larger for 1ms intervals than for 2ms ones? Increasing the chance that single events expience near-zero poll latency? Or am I ignoring something mathematical again, for instance the likeliness of that input falling just after the poll also being larger than with 2ms and that somehow cancelling out?


I don't understand what you're saying. The sensor frames are independent points in time. So when you're close enough that the other USB polls don't matter (<1ms), things should look exactly the same. ...As long as the firmware isn't polling the sensor improperly...


----------



## HAGGARD

No, I'm not talking about continuous inputs now. A single input event, timed arbitrarily. Now when you check for inputs each 1ms is the likeliness of that input being registered just after its creation on average larger than if you check only each 2ms?


----------



## wareya

Not the likeliness, no, just the rate. All that changes is, 50% of those "near-misses" and "near-hits" are now "almost exactly averagely timed" events. They go from being near a poll to being centered between polls.

Typical latency for randomly timed events is the same as the typical latency for continuous events. The only thing that behaves differently is when you go out of your way to time things near polls (which doesn't apply to human inputs).


----------



## HAGGARD

Yeah, just me not getting my head wrapped around actuality vs. average. As you and qsx rightly said, for arbitrary inputs the average is .5ms vs. 1ms, so the "likeliness" doesn't matter beyond those .5ms latency average difference.


----------



## Pragmatist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> FinalMouse made a design choice not to use the proper length plunger that contacts the mouse switch. They chose to extend the plunger with a small "sticker" that makes contact with the button switch. This sticker obviously is subject to coming loose, shifting, falling off etc.
> 
> Had they done the proper thing of making sure the plungers were the correct length, they wouldn't need these shims, and even on the side buttons once adjusted feel much better. These blatant corner cutting design choices are why I can't recommend this mouse to anyone.


Sorry for not responding sooner, I just saw the reply.

That is an informative post. Knowing that, it makes you wonder how they got this mouse so hyped to begin with?


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pragmatist*
> 
> Sorry for not responding sooner, I just saw the reply.
> 
> That is an informative post. Knowing that, it makes you wonder how they got this mouse so hyped to begin with?


- Super lightweight, one of the lightest mice available. (It might not be if other mice stopped adding internal weights)
- The 3310 sensor is good, and the FinalMouse implementation of it seems ok.
- Free review mice sent to reviewers.
- Paid/"Sponsored" a few players with large followings to advertise the mouse.


----------



## Pragmatist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> - Super lightweight, one of the lightest mice available. (It might not be if other mice stopped adding internal weights)
> - The 3310 sensor is good, and the FinalMouse implementation of it seems ok.
> - Free review mice sent to reviewers.
> - Paid/"Sponsored" a few players with large followings to advertise the mouse.


Yeah, but the left mouse button being next to useless after less than 400 clicks or so is unacceptable. I sent a message to support today, and I'll wait for further instructions. I don't mind paying for a product I don't use, I actually have a lot of new equipment just sitting there. But when a product dies in an instant you kinda get annoyed, at least I do.


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pragmatist*
> 
> Yeah, but the left mouse button being next to useless after less than 400 clicks or so is unacceptable. I sent a message to support today, and I'll wait for further instructions. I don't mind paying for a product I don't use, I actually have a lot of new equipment just sitting there. But when a product dies in an instant you kinda get annoyed, at least I do.


You can always open the mouse and center the shims better, but you'll probably need new mouse feet after this (Screws are located under the rear feet)

I don't think support can do much for you, I don't think they have either corrected the length of the plungers and/or raised the switch height in any revision yet. So a new one can suffer the same problem.

And I fully agree with you this is unacceptable, what makes it worse is they could have easily fixed this while designing the mouse.


----------



## doors1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Doors,
> 
> You should contact support explaining the situation. It is unacceptable that a product arrives clearly damaged by transit. They will make sure to take care of the situation and expedite a solution at no added expense.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


I forgot to add some pics and a video.





video left button loose - https://vid.me/UrRN

i returned the mouse and received the money back today.
What I have to do for them send me a new one,this time ?


----------



## Pragmatist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> I forgot to add some pics and a video.
> 
> video left button loose - https://vid.me/UrRN
> 
> i returned the mouse and received the money back today.
> What I have to do for them send me a new one,this time ?


How long did it take for you to get your support ticket answered, door1991? I am considering sending another ticket incase they overlooked it.


----------



## doors1991

One day,more or less.


----------



## Maximillion

I'm sorry, but seeing a box in that condition with "The Professional's Choice" plastered over it is hilarious.


----------



## doors1991

I was ashamed to send something like that.
worse than that is the left button.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> I was ashamed to send something like that.
> worse than that is the left button.


In the world of logistics, you will always get a stepped on product that will be broken (pure luck).

Hence send it back or demand a full refund, that is how the system works for the customer these days.


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> In the world of logistics, you will always get a stepped on product that will be broken (pure luck).
> 
> Hence send it back or demand a full refund, that is how the system works for the customer these days.


bad logistics ...
normal logistic take care on it aand pack it that it cant get broken ...
normal here in GER for me as working at OTC VW


----------



## wareya

that box was damaged before it even got into the shipping containers bois


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude whats the word on making replacement mousefeet available? I tried to get in touch with puretrak/corepad/tiger/hyperglide last week to see if they would be interested in producing something for FM but didn't get a single reply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps if Finalmouse approached them directly about the matter we might see something happen?


bump


----------



## bank1997

I heard that Jude will release a firmware to turn on or off mcu something, and now I never see he mention about this again.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> In the world of logistics, you will always get a stepped on product that will be broken (pure luck).
> 
> Hence send it back or demand a full refund, that is how the system works for the customer these days.
> 
> 
> 
> bad logistics ...
> normal logistic take care on it aand pack it that it cant get broken ...
> normal here in GER for me as working at OTC VW
Click to expand...

TRUE it's the shippers/sellers fault for not providing any reasonable transit protection.

You should see some of the stuff that arrives at my address, looks like it was stepped on with an M1 Abrams







.


----------



## Jonagold

That loose button doesn't cause any real performance issue though, it is only annoying. I had the same "problem". When you are about to press the button your finger already rests on the button making the "loose" to go away, therefore it doesn't cause any performance problems..

I just hope that FinalMouse don't put too much emphasis to these cosmetic problems and rather use their time to correct their sensor smoothing which causes unacceptable delay..


----------



## griffinz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> That loose button doesn't cause any real performance issue though, it is only annoying. I had the same "problem". When you are about to press the button your finger already rests on the button making the "loose" to go away, therefore it doesn't cause any performance problems..
> 
> I just hope that FinalMouse don't put too much emphasis to these cosmetic problems and rather use their time to correct their sensor smoothing which causes unacceptable delay..


Are you serious? This is the e-mail they need to send to their shell maker.

Lengthen RMB/LMB plungers by 0.5mm, lengthen side button plungers by 0.8mm. (they should get exact measurements, but this is roughly what we are talking about)

Doing this removes all slop and shims in the side & main buttons, it should have been done on their first release!


----------



## thuNDa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *griffinz*
> 
> Are you serious? This is the e-mail they need to send to their shell maker.
> 
> Lengthen RMB/LMB plungers by 0.5mm, lengthen side button plungers by 0.8mm. (they should get exact measurements, but this is roughly what we are talking about)
> 
> Doing this removes all slop and shims in the side & main buttons, it should have been done on their first release!


at least on the updated version, where they also worked on other areas of the shell.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Just got mines today and Im already having buyer's regret... The LED "hole" is PAINTED poorly on the mouse. The sensor also lags and even tho I can't hold my G303 properly I can still aim better with it... Also the internal mouse LED near the scroll wheel bleeds into the sensor hole...

First Impressions:
+ Nice and light
+ Fits my hand pretty well
+ Scrolls wheel feels decent
- LEDs are eye searing
- Cursor doesn't feel raw at all. Feels like Im dragging it through mud
- Top shell seems to be just transparent ABS covered in grippy black paint
- Braided cord doesn't feel like anything special
- Mouse skates doesn't feel like teflon. Not very low friction

This does not feel like a 68$ mouse.

Update: Just realized the way they force you to grip this mouse the sensor is more deeply seated in your hand. This mouse doesn't feel responsive unless I hold it in a fingertip grip. It just feels too post-processed.

Update 2: Going to return this mouse. I can't handle the smoothing. Its very noticeable and it just doesn't work out for me.


----------



## Kmagekris

Really like the mouse still... the left click has been driving me a bit batty though. When i press the right click it feels normal but the left click is loose and when i click it, it seems to make a lot of noise which i don't know if its scraping the shell against something its not supposed to, i don't know if its the little circle maybe getting hit... If I return this to amazon I wonder what the outcome would be if i bought another one. Is this problem just that prevalent that its gonna be on the next one?

I hope the Ambi edition fixes these problems but srsly that left click =(.


----------



## doors1991

i had the same problem.
I wonder if it is not the same that I had.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> The sensor also lags and even tho I can't hold my G303 properly I can still aim better with it... Also the internal mouse LED near the scroll wheel bleeds into the sensor hole...
> 
> - Cursor doesn't feel raw at all. Feels like Im dragging it through mud
> 
> It just feels too post-processed.
> 
> Update 2: Going to return this mouse. I can't handle the smoothing. Its very noticeable and it just doesn't work out for me.


You almost certainly got a defective one.


----------



## qsxcv

doubt it. how do you know the g502 you tried isnt defective?
why do people never get defective mlt04 mice?


----------



## wareya

well they do vary a lot for some reason, he had three that tracked differently to the point of having very visibly different mousetester graphs


----------



## qsxcv

meh...
if it's difference in variance it might make sense but as far as responsiveness/smoothing is concerned, i'd imagine it would be pretty consistent between mice of the same model.


----------



## wareya

yet the DA 3.5g feels like a swamp solely due to being jittery at high speeds


----------



## qsxcv

well likewise variance in 9500 makes it feel very inconsistent/inaccurate when swiping, but it still feels extremely responsive.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You almost certainly got a defective one.


I returned it today and now Im either going to get a KPM, Skydigital NMouse 4K, or wait for Logitech next line of mice.


----------



## wareya

If the KPM sates you of all people I would have more reason to be impressed by it. Do you know anything about the Mionix mice? I don't.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> If the KPM sates you of all people I would have more reason to be impressed by it. Do you know anything about the Mionix mice? I don't.


I don't think I like any of their shapes except for maybe the Castor. However I prefer a flat right side.


----------



## mathewr

Can someone please direct me to where I find the return information for EU? The website is quite empty on contact info.

I bought one a few months ago (via Amazon US) and the mouse just died. It lights up when plugged in and the PC pickets something up via USB, but the buttons and sensor do not respond.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## wareya

Email customer support. [email protected]


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I returned it today and now Im either going to get a KPM, Skydigital NMouse 4K, or wait for Logitech next line of mice.


Selection of 3310 based mice will increase as time goes obv.

There's also the Gtune M40(white) / M42(black) to add to that list. But I think it's best you wait for the 3366 public version in my opinion. Seems to me that you will probably be disappointed with most of the stuff coming to market.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I returned it today and now Im either going to get a KPM, Skydigital NMouse 4K, or wait for Logitech next line of mice.
> 
> 
> 
> Selection of 3310 based mice will increase as time goes obv.
> 
> There's also the Gtune M40(white) / M42(black) to add to that list. But I think it's best you wait for the 3366 public version in my opinion. Seems to me that you will probably be disappointed with most of the stuff coming to market.
Click to expand...

Actually if you are an Intellimouse 3.0 Lover the M42 (came in yesterday) is true to form.

Looks exactly like it's predecessor but running a 3310 sensor. Also NO side buttons which for me, is in the realm of absolute PERFECTION







.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Actually if you are an Intellimouse 3.0 Lover the M42 (came in yesterday) is true to form.
> 
> Looks exactly like it's predecessor but running a 3310 sensor. Also NO side buttons which for me, is in the realm of absolute PERFECTION
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


If you actually have it post a thread up with pics. Would like to know to build quality since the M40/42's ODM seems to be a lesser known company.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Would like to know to build quality since the M40/42's ODM seems to be a lesser known company.


Think I paid $36.90AUD for mine and Gmarket delivered it so quickly to where I live.

The coating on the mouse is some cheapy rubber painted compound but way more superior than any of Razer's junk pile, but at half the total cost, maybe even less so.

The underneath sensor position is situated more so, towards the top half of the mouse body so it isn't centered at all. Maybe some would class that as supreme heresy here on OCN.

The left and right mouse switches are certainly very clicky but no where as extreme as any huano setup. Feels like the standard Omron D2FC-F-7N (10M) so don't get all that excited about it being Jap made models at all.

The scroll wheel is okay, certainly seems better than Zowie's but who knows how long it will last, until you use it hard for several months to determine whether it's good or not.

Overall you get a lot for such a cheapo priced mouse. Don't underestimate no name Chinese companies who make these input devices because some of them may indeed be made at the same factory as Roccat's and even SteelSeries.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Think I paid $36.90AUD for mine and Gmarket delivered it so quickly to where I live.
> 
> The coating on the mouse is some cheapy rubber painted compound but way more superior than any of Razer's junk pile, but at half the total cost, maybe even less so.
> 
> The underneath sensor position is situated more so, towards the top half of the mouse body so it isn't centered at all. Maybe some would class that as supreme heresy here on OCN.
> 
> The left and right mouse switches are certainly very clicky but no where as extreme as any huano setup. Feels like the standard Omron D2FC-F-7N (10M) so don't get all that excited about it being Jap made models at all.
> 
> The scroll wheel is okay, certainly seems better than Zowie's but who knows how long it will last, until you use it hard for several months to determine whether it's good or not.
> 
> Overall you get a lot for such a cheapo priced mouse. Don't underestimate no name Chinese companies who make these input devices because some of them may indeed be made at the same factory as Roccat's and even SteelSeries.


The M40 is $26 in Korea? Damn, at least they sanely price these 3310 mice. Should be what the Finalmouse costs. Yeah, $46(shipping to the states included) for the m40 from gmarket aint too bad really.


----------



## kr0w

Thank you for your input. I just placed an order on GMarket for the Gtune M40. I recently ordered an Avata IE3.0 with an ADNS-3080 sensor (same sensor as MX518, so it should have some prediction); should be in tomorrow. The only 3310 mouse I've tried was the FM2015SE and wasn't too big a fan. Hopefully I'll enjoy this one.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kr0w*
> 
> Thank you for your input. I just placed an order on GMarket for the Gtune M40. I recently ordered an Avata IE3.0 with an ADNS-3080 sensor (same sensor as MX518, so it should have some prediction); should be in tomorrow. The only 3310 mouse I've tried was the FM2015SE and wasn't too big a fan. Hopefully I'll enjoy this one.


Yeah, Avata IE 3.0 Afterlife contains a 14g weight inside just so you know. Pics of internals here: http://www.zeecrear.com/?p=20696

Otherwise I have no experience with the mouse.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I dont think I would like the Gtune mice. 2heavy4me. I think I'd just wait for the public 3366 mice.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kr0w*
> 
> Thank you for your input. I just placed an order on GMarket for the Gtune M40. I recently ordered an Avata IE3.0 with an ADNS-3080 sensor (same sensor as MX518, so it should have some prediction); should be in tomorrow.


SUPREMELY jealous that you got an Avata IE3.0 because they're rare as hens teeth







.


----------



## kr0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Yeah, Avata IE 3.0 Afterlife contains a 14g weight inside just so you know. Pics of internals here: http://www.zeecrear.com/?p=20696
> 
> Otherwise I have no experience with the mouse.


It's no problem for me. I always left the extra weight on with the old MX500's. I actually placed the PCB of my G400 into a MX500 shell just to use the extra weights.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> SUPREMELY jealous that you got an Avata IE3.0 because they're rare as hens teeth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I think I purchased the last one available on zeecrear, but there are so many on aliexpress!


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We are working really hard to have the mouse out in time for the holidays. There is a chance it could even be ready sooner since so far we have made great headway.
> 
> And also we managed to incorporate a really nice grainy plastic for the side that also manages to look very aesthetically pleasing. Ill post this sneak peek image but this will be the last photo I can put up before the final announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Finalmouse Jude


How long until the final announcement, looking forward to getting one of these.


----------



## kicksome

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> How long until the final announcement, looking forward to getting one of these.


good question I want one as well.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You almost certainly got a defective one.


Nah, I have had 3 of them, all had this horrible sensor delay, maybe you can only feel it on 120/144hz monitors..


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Nah, I have had 3 of them, all had this horrible sensor delay, maybe you can only feel it on 120/144hz monitors..


I have 144 Hz, First was defective, second one I got is great.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I have a 144hz monitor, and very optimized system. The FM sensors do have a flaw but I wouldn't categorize it as "a horrible sensor delay". Though it would make the most sense if you were comparing it to an MLT04.


----------



## wareya

Have you tried out the KPM's drivers to fix the click latency yet?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Who?


----------



## wareya

You


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I have a 144hz monitor, and very optimized system. The FM sensors do have a flaw but I wouldn't categorize it as "a horrible sensor delay". Though it would make the most sense if you were comparing it to an MLT04.


I compared it to a G303...


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@wareya I returned my KPM after testing it.

@zenith I was talking about jonagold's complaint.


----------



## KFieLd

God damnit. I just now saw the teaser photo of the FM Ambi. The arch or hump looks better/more comfortable to me. They fixed my biggest gripe with the FM, and one of the main reasons why I decided not to purchase it. and they made the side buttons FLAT, and not that awful triangular shape. They look bigger/better placed over the Zowie mice like the EC/FK.

Had I saw that photo before I ordered my zowie ec2-a -- I would of waited, stuck it out with my current DA2013 that's getting old, with it's sloppy scroll wheel... and just got the fm ambi to try out. Shape looks perfect to me. Side buttons look so much better... and one would think a lot of the QC issues would be resolved before shipping out the next mouse in their line-up.. and we all know the FM's upgraded 3310 performs to most peoples expectations. The only thing I'm not aware of is if the FM Ambi will feature 1000hz polling or stay with the 500hz FM is utilizing now.

Gonna end up ordering it as soon as it hits amazon regardless. To much hype around this 3310 w/ it's upgraded firmware.. to not at least try it out/return if necessary. The current finalmouse has a lot more negativity surrounding it than a lot of other gaming mice on the market so I steered clear. I can't have a mouse that will die/break within a 6 month window. Hopefully the ambi is built better.


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude whats the word on making replacement mousefeet available? I tried to get in touch with puretrak/corepad/tiger/hyperglide last week to see if they would be interested in producing something for FM but didn't get a single reply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps if Finalmouse approached them directly about the matter we might see something happen?


bump


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> bump


I dont think it'll ever happen. Just buy this instead: http://www.amazon.com/Hyperglide-Skates-Microsoft-Intellimouse-Explorer-Optical/dp/B00X9FGBI8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1445046800&sr=8-4&keywords=hyperglide


----------



## ncck

I'm waiting for the FM Ambi release and for someone else to buy and try it. I returned the FM SE because the shape was just... anyway, also the guys who mentioned they used cheap internals for the clicks and some other stuff is a real big turn off. But lets say they started as a fresh company with a low budget.. hopefully their second product will be better. My only complaint so far is that they want to use something similar to zowie mouse feet (2 big skates) which I think is a really bad idea, but I guess I could just replace those with some custom feet.. right? Anyway.. hoping something comes to replace my fk1 cause the click delay stinks


----------



## KFieLd

Why is using big skates like the zowie's use a bad idea? Granted I haven't gotten my zowie yet, but I've used mice with larger feet and they glide just fine? It's not about the shape. It's about how they're cut.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KFieLd*
> 
> Why is using big skates like the zowie's use a bad idea? Granted I haven't gotten my zowie yet, but I've used mice with larger feet and they glide just fine? It's not about the shape. It's about how they're cut.


More friction apparently. And non weird shapes are easier to cut so they are less prone to bad cuts.


----------



## KFieLd

well I'll be giving my zowie a run tomorrow once it gets here.. I guess I'll see for myself if there XL size skates are any better or worse than others. Everyone I know from CSGO that uses zowie raves about them.


----------



## James N

When will the Finalmouse ambi be available in Europe? Can anyone provide a date?


----------



## Sencha

There's no date yet. Just "holiday season"


----------



## Nixtix

Any news if they are going to implement stable 1000hz polling on the FM?


----------



## qsxcv

i would doubt it


----------



## x1x50Jayx1x

Haven't posted on here in forever. I received the FinalMouse 2015 on Monday. I am returning it on Friday, due to having things to do.

Here's the review I posted on amazon. I hope it helps people.

I've been playing Counter-Strike 1.6/Source/GO combined for 11 years.

Like others I wanted to see what all the hype was about with this mouse so I decided to give it a shot.

Mice I have used:

Logitech Optical (cheap mouse)
Logitech G5
Logitech MX518
Razer Diamondback Plasma
Razer DeathAdder Chroma
Zowie ec1 (blue rubber edition)
Zowie ec1 eVo

PROS:
Sensor is flawless. Slightly better than the sensor in the ec1 eVo
Braided Mouse Cord
Switches - Clicks are really nice and responsive

CONS:
-Upon arrival I could see the light from the scroll wheel through the right mouse button, there didn't appear to be any coating issue but there has to be an issue somewhere with the plastic/coating being thin in that spot.
-The light on the FinalMouse never cuts off, I thought it was something I had set in the BIOS... It wasn't. I've had no problem with any of the before mentioned mice that I have used with lights staying on... ever.
-Dpi button on the top of the mouse. I thought this wouldn't be an issue but it is, I accidentally hit it all the time. I use Finger/Palm grip.
-Light is ridiculously bright on this mouse. Compared to say the DA Chroma or even the Diamondback Plasma it is literally just insane.

Small UPDATE:
Added some details about the switches being good. They are noticeably better than my ec1 evo.

*I am still returning it. I personally have decided to go with a Zowie ZA11 as it uses the same sensor and I have never had any problems with zowies build quality.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KFieLd*
> 
> well I'll be giving my zowie a run tomorrow once it gets here.. I guess I'll see for myself if there XL size skates are any better or worse than others. Everyone I know from CSGO that uses zowie raves about them.


They start out great as the skate usually don't fully contact. But once they wear down to level they have a lot more friction then small skates.


----------



## aLv1080

Hey guys, can you tell me about the click latency? Has anyone tested it yet?


----------



## qsxcv

it's about same as logitech's mice in bump test. i.e. no significant latency


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Theres a bit of pretravel tho so in game your click reaction times will be worse


----------



## wareya

not if you apply pressure in your grip like most people do

there's pretravel on all mouse switches. It's how much pressure you have to apply that matters. Hairtriggery buttons are better (I know because my modded DA has hairtriggery buttons), but everyone hates them because they misclick (and I agree, they're annoying even if they're better)


----------



## Houser

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> How long until the final announcement, looking forward to getting one of these.


I didn't find anything about the length of the new mouse...I hope it's at least 125 mm...


----------



## aerowalk30

125x65x36








Please


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> not if you apply pressure in your grip like most people do
> 
> there's pretravel on all mouse switches. It's how much pressure you have to apply that matters. Hairtriggery buttons are better (I know because my modded DA has hairtriggery buttons), but everyone hates them because they misclick (and I agree, they're annoying even if they're better)


Yeah, directly the reason why I can't use the g303 buttons at all. I constantly press them by accident lol. Probably hate them even more than the shape. Guess that would just require some getting used to but meh, why?

The buttons on the Finalmouse I have now are just fine, maybe even a bit too light. The pre-travel they have are not an issue because my fingers are applying enough force to remove the pre-travel entirely on use.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> not if you apply pressure in your grip like most people do
> 
> there's pretravel on all mouse switches. It's how much pressure you have to apply that matters. Hairtriggery buttons are better (I know because my modded DA has hairtriggery buttons), but everyone hates them because they misclick (and I agree, they're annoying even if they're better)


G303 doesnt have pretravel. Im spoiled by the buttons. Now I put tape on the actuators of any mouse I plan on keeping.


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> 125x65x36
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please


125x70x41

got big hands, that would be the dream


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

110x70x39 pls


----------



## Longasc

NVM - delete please


----------



## Nilizum

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *x1x50Jayx1x*
> 
> CONS:
> -Upon arrival I could see the light from the scroll wheel through the right mouse button, there didn't appear to be any coating issue but there has to be an issue somewhere with the plastic/coating being thin in that spot.
> -The light on the FinalMouse never cuts off, I thought it was something I had set in the BIOS... It wasn't. I've had no problem with any of the before mentioned mice that I have used with lights staying on... ever.
> -Dpi button on the top of the mouse. I thought this wouldn't be an issue but it is, I accidentally hit it all the time. I use Finger/Palm grip.
> -Light is ridiculously bright on this mouse. Compared to say the DA Chroma or even the Diamondback Plasma it is literally just insane.
> 
> Small UPDATE:
> Added some details about the switches being good. They are noticeably better than my ec1 evo.
> 
> *I am still returning it. I personally have decided to go with a Zowie ZA11 as it uses the same sensor and I have never had any problems with zowies build quality.


So you're returning this mouse because of aesthetic issues... K. Not sure if those are actual cons, but ok. An orthodox grip won't cause someone to hit a dpi button unless you're a weirdo that places 3 fingers on top of the mouse.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> So you're returning this mouse because of aesthetic issues... K. Not sure if those are actual cons, but ok. An orthodox grip won't cause someone to hit a dpi button unless you're a weirdo that places 3 fingers on top of the mouse.


Three fingers on top is the best hand position for a palm grip.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Three fingers on top is the best hand position for a palm grip in my opinion.


FTFY.


----------



## KFieLd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Three fingers on top is the best hand position for MY palm grip.


Fixed.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KFieLd*
> 
> Fixed.


Better placement in the palm. It allows usage of the buttons and scroll wheel at the same time without changing your grip. Can be more comfortable for your ring ringer than using the sides. Etc.


----------



## trism

> Better placement in the palm.
Subjective

> It allows usage of the buttons and scroll wheel at the same time without changing your grip
Yes, while having downsides too. Less stability for your grip and can cause cramps due to pinky being too far and the only finger to support the grip.

> Can be more comfortable for your ring ringer than using the sides. Etc.
Also less comfortable.

It's really useless to argue about griptypes. They are so subjective and there isn't a gripstyle that would fit everyone nor a gripstyle that would somehow be superior in every aspect.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> It's really useless to argue about griptypes. They are so subjective and there isn't a gripstyle that would fit everyone nor a gripstyle that would somehow be superior in every aspect.


Then why comment in the first place if you don't want to discuss it?


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Then why comment in the first place if you don't want to discuss it?


Because you seem to be writing subjective opinions as facts. I just had to correct you that it's your opinion and others might feel differently.

EDIT: If that wasn't your intention or I misinterpreted it, disregard this post.


----------



## Nixtix

Damn, just as I was contemplating buying the mouse it sells out yet again.


----------



## KFieLd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nixtix*
> 
> Damn, just as I was contemplating buying the mouse it sells out yet again.


Wait for FM ambi. Most of the QC complaints will probably be addressed/fixed.... and the shape looks epic. I shy'd away from the FM because of the thumb contour. The way I hold the mouse, I like to have the very tip of my thumb & pinky sort of "grazing" the mouse pad when I do swipes because it gives me more feeling of "control". With that thumb contour, it forces you to place your thumb a certain way, and I'm not sure I'd be able to get around it.


----------



## Soo8

Any heads up on the new version? The wait is too long. I want it nao!


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> Any heads up on the new version? The wait is too long. I want it nao!


Around thanksgiving.


----------



## koxy

Hi guys,
so finally i have my FM2015 and my grip loves it







even more than previous zowie za12, anyway i don't wanna go thru 270++ pages (most of post are pure garbage anyway) to find answer to my question, is possible to flash firmware to have 1000hz instead of 500hz ? and how 500hz works on 144hz monitor? Soon im gonna have 144hz monitor and i dont wanna have any issues with mouse cursor...


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *koxy*
> 
> is possible to flash firmware to have 1000hz instead of 500hz ?


No


----------



## Soo8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *koxy*
> 
> and how 500hz works on 144hz monitor?


Same as on 60-75hz.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> No


Well Jude said they MIGHT release a fw update tool. So pray to the mouse gods and believe it will happen.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I PM'd Jude about it a while back. He never replied which implies there probably isn't


----------



## c0dy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I PM'd Jude about it a while back. He never replied which implies there probably isn't


Did the same a few days ago. Although there was a good amount of support in this thread by him, nothing new yet.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *koxy*
> 
> is possible to flash firmware to have 1000hz instead of 500hz ?


no
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *koxy*
> 
> and how 500hz works on 144hz monitor? Soon im gonna have 144hz monitor and i dont wanna have any issues with mouse cursor...


Just fine, you won't have any problems. Only if you use lightboost, then you might have some micro stutters here and there.
But besides that, it's all good. You won't be able to notice a difference between 500Hz and 1000Hz.


----------



## suneatshours86

FM ambi? where are you?









#releasetheambi


----------



## koxy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> no
> Just fine, you won't have any problems. Only if you use lightboost, then you might have some micro stutters here and there.
> But besides that, it's all good. You won't be able to notice a difference between 500Hz and 1000Hz.


Hmm i dont wanna start offtopic about 144hz monitors, but dont You think lightboost or ULMB is a nice feature ? Also why on this mouse led light stays always on even if i turn my pc off? Yeah i know i have usb ports turns on all time but with other mouses with led lights i dont have this problem...


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *koxy*
> 
> Hmm i dont wanna start offtopic about 144hz monitors, but dont You think lightboost or ULMB is a nice feature ? Also why on this mouse led light stays always on even if i turn my pc off? Yeah i know i have usb ports turns on all time but with other mouses with led lights i dont have this problem...


If you are annoyed by the LED in most mobo UEFI , well atleast in mine) I can select to power off USB ports when the pc is turned off.

/offtopic
Lightboost>ULMB couse I like it slightly more IMO. Its good if you can deal with low brightness


----------



## koxy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> If you are annoyed by the LED in most mobo UEFI , well atleast in mine) I can select to power off USB ports when the pc is turned off.
> 
> /offtopic
> Lightboost>ULMB couse I like it slightly more IMO. Its good if you can deal with low brightness


Well i cant my mobo doesnt have this option so i cant turn it off and like i said its FM2015 problem i dont have any issues with led on other mices


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

#ambiorriot


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *koxy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> no
> Just fine, you won't have any problems. Only if you use lightboost, then you might have some micro stutters here and there.
> But besides that, it's all good. You won't be able to notice a difference between 500Hz and 1000Hz.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm i dont wanna start offtopic about 144hz monitors, but dont You think lightboost or ULMB is a nice feature ? Also why on this mouse led light stays always on even if i turn my pc off? Yeah i know i have usb ports turns on all time but with other mouses with led lights i dont have this problem...
Click to expand...

Imo depends on how you play fps games. If you like going aggressive the Lightboost/ULMB is probably better because you can see your target more clearly. If you like to camp and play angles then non-lightboost would be better because of less delay. Ofc with CRT/OLED displays you dont have to choose. You get the benefits of both


----------



## koxy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Imo depends on how you play fps games. If you like going aggressive the Lightboost/ULMB is probably better because you can see your target more clearly. If you like to camp and play angles then non-lightboost would be better because of less delay. Ofc with CRT/OLED displays you dont have to choose. You get the benefits of both


Well thanks for this but i know what lightboost is, for me lightboost has more pros than cons,question is lightboost+500hz mouse gonna affect gameplay? From 5 or 6 yrs always use 1000hz mouses so i dont have a clue is 500hz mouse will work well with 144hz monitor and lightboost/ulbm on.


----------



## wareya

1000hz vs 500hz is a matter of literally 0.5ms, your monitor's power supply might make a bigger difference. (/s)

Where it gets interesting is ingame smoothness, but everything becomes as smooth as it gets _for me_ when I hit 250fps or so, and 500hz is enough to never ever drop a mouse input on that.

The bigger problem with the FM is it adds smoothing despite being at 500hz, _on top of_ whatever it is that the 3310 does. So you have like 4ms of effective latency over an ideal theoretic 1000hz mouse.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Didn't you mention there was something about 1000hz having less delay variance than 500hz?


----------



## wareya

1khz is 0-1ms, 500hz is 0-2ms, with averages of 0.5 and 1

500hz has more delay variance for clicks and other instant events, but it's on the millisecond level. Movement is a smooth event so it doesn't get any variance because it doesn't have real breaking points of timing.


----------



## wareya

changing to a different omron manufacturer? Are they chinese or japanese manufactured right now?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> uh wat?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Yeah, that will probably be the weirdest thing I will have read today.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> changing to a different omron manufacturer? Are they chinese or japanese manufactured right now?


Maybe different model of switch or different distributor.


----------



## exitone

This vs Tesoro Sagitta?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Flip a coin. They're both overpriced cheap made in china mice.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

By different sourcing method I meant different supplier/agent for our switches. This actually had a big impact on switch quality.

The differences between the signature and non signature model will be restricted to the following :

Switch differences (example. Japanese factory omrons vs Chinese factory)

Teflon configurations (example 2x2 smaller feet for faster glide vs 1x1 for more control)

Aesthetic Design

Mouse wheel encoder

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## Maximillion

Will the "signature" model be something that's limited quantity and/or only available for a limited time? Will it release in unison with the regular version?


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Will the "signature" model be something that's limited quantity and/or only available for a limited time? Will it release in unison with the regular version?


+1


----------



## AkumaAiGhT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> This vs Tesoro Sagitta?


Sagitta, Finalmouse is too small for me, and i have better grip on the Sagitta


----------



## trism

Not interested in the ambi if it has the PMW3310. and is implemented by esignal

Could you put the PMW3320 in the normal version?









Or maybe something else...?


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Not interested in the ambi if it has the PMW3310. and is implemented by esignal
> 
> Could you put the PMW3320 in the normal version?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe something else...?


What's wrong with the 3310? Was to my understanding that the 3320 is a downgrade to the 3310, isn't it like the budget version?


----------



## KFieLd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> What's wrong with the 3310? Was to my understanding that the 3320 is a downgrade to the 3310, isn't it like the budget version?


I don't see them using any other sensor unless for some reason the 3366 has gone public by then. The company is catering towards the professional player, and a lot of pros like and use 3310 equipped mice, be it the rival or an FK1 or other zowie model.

Honestly I wouldn't want them to use any sensor BUT either the 3310 or 3366 if it becomes public. Don't want a 3090. Don't want a 3988. The 3310 sensor is by far the best I've used since I haven't yet had the chance to try a 3366. It's not for everyone, but it IS well regarded as being better than everything else aside from a 3366. Some people claim the 3988 is better, but I'm not one of them.. and I have a long history with the 3988. It's good.. but the 3310 does it better for me.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Not interested in the ambi if it has the PMW3310. and is implemented by esignal
> 
> Could you put the PMW3320 in the normal version?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe something else...?


Their v1 ambi should be focused towards the general/casual consumer. They can use the 3310, LED logo, MCU filtering, higher debounce, squishy Chinese Omrons, soft feedback encoder, transparent coated plastic. braided cable, etc.

Their v2 ambi would be for the competitive player. That would mean an ALPS encoder, Japanese Omrons, better plastic for the shell, no LED for the logo, no MCU filtering, better debounce code, better mouse feet, non braided cable, 3320 sensor, original lens, etc.

There is no reason to sell two 3310 versions if it's simply a higher cost varient and lower cost variant. Meaning, just changing switches and encoder.

Doesn't CM have the Spawn and the Xornet? Doesn't Logitech have the G302 and the G303? Doesn't Razer have the Mamba and the DeathAdder? Other companies are doing the same thing.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KFieLd*
> 
> I don't see them using any other sensor unless for some reason the 3366 has gone public by then. The company is catering towards the professional player, and a lot of pros like and use 3310 equipped mice, be it the rival or an FK1 or other zowie model.
> 
> Honestly I wouldn't want them to use any sensor BUT either the 3310 or 3366 if it becomes public. Don't want a 3090. Don't want a 3988. The 3310 sensor is by far the best I've used since I haven't yet had the chance to try a 3366. It's not for everyone, but it IS well regarded as being better than everything else aside from a 3366. Some people claim the 3988 is better, but I'm not one of them.. and I have a long history with the 3988. It's good.. but the 3310 does it better for me.


Catering towards the professional player by using a sensor with higher latency and increasing that input delay further by using MCU filtering?

Pros use the 3310 because the newest products from their sponsor utilize the 3310. If those products had the 3988, they would be using that, like the players using DeathAdders.

I think the 3320 is cheaper than the 3310 and the 3310 is cheaper than the 3988.

The 3320 is said to have lower amounts of smoothing and better frame rate behavior. Which should make the sensor preferred by demanding users. If the AM010 SROM is released to the public the sensor would have no smoothing below 2000 CPI. Then you can have a fixed (medium) frame rate sensor, with no smoothing at 800 CPI.


----------



## Soo8

@FinalmouseJude Will the normal ambi version feature the newer sourced omrons? Or is this just a classic FM update?


----------



## popups

The main buttons of the "ambi" appears to have a lot of over travel.

Does the ambi use the same 3 PCB design as the ergo?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> What's wrong with the 3310? Was to my understanding that the 3320 is a downgrade to the 3310, isn't it like the budget version?


3310 has smoothing and variance problems inherited from 9500/9800. nothing too seriously wrong with it but it's overhyped due to its popularity

3988 is technically stronger (higher framerates), but it's not as popular as 3310 because it's more difficult to design pcbs and stuff for it. whereas 3310 has the same 20pin package as the 3090, the previous "go-to" sensor.

3320 is the public version of logitech's am010. it's better at the things the 3310 is bad at, but it's technically weaker (smaller and less dense pixel array, lower maximum framerate). but i believe most people find the tracking of the am010 to be pretty good, except some who can't handle the ~2.6m/s malfunction speed.


----------



## wareya

How related is the S3988 to the S3888 and S3688? Linear progression?


----------



## qsxcv

afaik
36*6*8 and 3888 from same family i think (2020,3060,3070,3080,3090,etc...)

9500/9800/3310/3988/3989 are another family

3050 is derived from the office sensor 5050

am010/3320 are supposedly completely new

and 3366 is also supposedly completely new architecture

i think the only relation between the 88's are that they are/were exclusive to razer


----------



## detto87

Nice pictures. Looks good. Like a bullier WMO. I hope I'm right.
Any info for release date?


----------



## thatgold

edited because am st00pid


----------



## wareya

classic didn't have rubber, it had patterned plastic. somewhat annoying


----------



## doors1991

I know,but I did not know the right word to use xd.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> edited because am st00pid


Only i can talk about you like that. You be nice to you.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> How can the pictures be real if our eyes arent?


Mind blown!


----------



## ncck

Jude.. I am so happy you guys decided to make another version with 2x2 mouse feet. I'm loving the design so far. If this mouse has responsive clicks (aka anything more responsive than my fk1) this is looking like my new main driver for a long time. Can't wait for the announcement. I didn't like the previous model due to shape but enjoyed it component wise. Thanks for taking customer feedback so seriously.

I'm a bit confused on what entirely is meant between signature and non-signature. Is one intended to have more 'quality parts' at the cost of price? Or just different options for different people.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *koxy*
> 
> Well i cant my mobo doesnt have this option so i cant turn it off and like i said its FM2015 problem i dont have any issues with led on other mices


I have that problem with my Z170 Pro Gaming. Can't find the 'turn USB Off' switch in the BIOS


----------



## suneatshours86

damn... it seems so... big?!


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *suneatshours86*
> 
> damn... it seems so... big?!


Which is exactly what us people with bigger hands want!


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *suneatshours86*
> 
> damn... it seems so... big?!


I have big hands, but most big mice I've used have really awkward shapes. This is what I've been waiting for!


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *suneatshours86*
> 
> damn... it seems so... big?!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Which is exactly what us people with bigger hands want!


Take it easy there fellas


----------



## popups

I can use a mouse that is ~117mm in length if the shape is good. However, the only mice that fill my hand like I want are much larger.


----------



## koxy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> I have that problem with my Z170 Pro Gaming. Can't find the 'turn USB Off' switch in the BIOS


It's possible that Your mobo native support usb charging and You cant turn it off, but check mobo manual, maybe you can do it thru jumpers on motherboard. Anyway it's a fm2015 constructors oversight.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *suneatshours86*
> 
> damn... it seems so... big?!
> 
> 
> 
> Which is exactly what us people with bigger hands want!
Click to expand...

And we fingertip grippers get shafted again.


----------



## koxy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> And we fingertip grippers get shafted again.


Isnt first fm2015 good for fingertip ? i can fingertip mine with no prob.


----------



## wareya

it's beautiful for fingertip grips but the sensor implementation is laggy, glitchy, and wildly inconsistent from mouse to mouse


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> the sensor implementation is laggy, glitchy, and wildly inconsistent from mouse to mouse


This. I also find the right side of the mouse is too glossy to keep a stable grip if you have sweaty hands. The thumb groove is also a bit too deep.


----------



## koxy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> This. I also find the right side of the mouse is too glossy to keep a stable grip if you have sweaty hands. The thumb groove is also a bit too deep.


This is true, glossy plastic is a crap, however sensors works perfect at least in mine unit. FM isnt perfect but which one is ? Think they should do ver 2 of this mouse with no glossy plastic, braided cable, better side buttons(shape is horrible).


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> it's beautiful for fingertip grips but the sensor implementation is laggy, glitchy, and wildly inconsistent from mouse to mouse


But we were told through the feelvine that this is the next best thing.


----------



## wareya

their hearts are in the right place. hopefully "their" engineers get it together and put a competent sensor implementation in the ambi and later in the 2016


----------



## b0z0

I've just ordered the finalmouse.


----------



## ncck

sorry you got a bad model wareya, but when I had mine the sensor was on point and pretty damn flawless. Tbh it tracked better than my fk1 I think... but had to return it due to that nightmarish shape (for me personally)

waiting patiently on this ambi...............!!


----------



## wareya

it's not "just me", dude
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Tbh it tracked better than my fk1 I think...


ok, post discarded


----------



## PU skunk

It doesnt look any bigger in the bottom pic, and its the same weight so.....
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *suneatshours86*
> 
> damn... it seems so... big?!


It's not. They're just using a wide angle lens. Foreground objects look bigger which is why you don't use one for beauty shots...noses look huge. Maybe they will make a big 'n tall version.


----------



## Nixtix

How do you guys grip this mouse? It seems like you can only do a palm or hybrid palm+claw grip, but not claw 100%.


----------



## koxy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nixtix*
> 
> How do you guys grip this mouse? It seems like you can only do a palm or hybrid palm+claw grip, but not claw 100%.


Dont have any problems with 100% claw grip on this mouse


----------



## TburdzZ

So I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks this but the finalmouse feet are just God aweful in my opinion. I was wondering if u guys make or know someone or a site that makes third party mouse feet for the fm. If not im going to order some high quality material and make them myself.


----------



## rivage

"Some big things happening very soon! Esports fans get ready because there is more than just the FM ambi on the horizon. #mouserevolution" at finalmouse on twitter

What could this mean? any suggestions?


----------



## Sencha

Maybe they are just talking about the signature. Although I doubt it will take them long to bang out a mouse mat as well.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> it's not "just me", dude
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Tbh it tracked better than my fk1 I think...
> 
> 
> 
> ok, post discarded
Click to expand...

FM 2015 was unusable for me. Yes it felt accurate but definitely not raw. I definitely felt the latency and it did not sit well with my muscle memory.


----------



## Nixtix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *koxy*
> 
> Dont have any problems with 100% claw grip on this mouse


Where do you put your ring finger? I have the same problem with this mouse as the MX518, where my ring finger wants to be on the right side with my pinky but it can't. Anyone try sanding down the right side LOL......


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rivage*
> 
> "Some big things happening very soon! Esports fans get ready because there is more than just the FM ambi on the horizon. #mouserevolution" at finalmouse on twitter
> 
> What could this mean? any suggestions?


Maybe it means they're going to release the 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch that Jude mentioned months ago, or they are going to provide the customers who supported their first product with some bloody replaceable mouse feet. If its news that they are going to sponsor a CSGO/DOTA/LoL/OW team or another product release they can blow a fat one for putting that ahead of addressing genuine customer needs and past promises.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> If its news that they are going to sponsor a CSGO/DOTA/LoL/OW team or another product release they can blow a fat one for putting that ahead of addressing genuine customer needs and past promises.


It will take a lot of money to sponsor a team these days.

Overwatch is considered a competitive game and has teams already!? That game is for the "casual" crowd.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> FM 2015 was unusable for me. Yes it felt accurate but definitely not raw. I definitely felt the latency and it did not sit well with my muscle memory.


To me it felt like the button latency was actively lower than the tracking latency. Which is impressive in one way, but kind of hilarious when you think about what they would've had to do to the tracking.


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> To me it felt like the button latency was actively lower than the tracking latency. Which is impressive in one way, but kind of hilarious when you think about what they would've had to do to the tracking.


Tracking latency the same thing as movement delay? The difference was so noticeable to me at first that I wondered if I had a defective unit, but then saw a few mentions of it by users throughout this thread and took it to mean that it was just how the FM was. Looking back now I'm wondering if the few people who have mentioned experiencing this actually do have defective units. Surely it would be a much more talked about topic if all FMs had this significant movement delay, especially with it being touted as the big boy pro gamer mouse.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Its called marketing. Ability to percieve lag also varies from person to person.


----------



## wareya

There's also much more variation in tracking from mouse to mouse with the FM 2015 than any other mouse I have ever seen. Like, Kohler managed to get three manufacturings that all tracked _completely differently_ on the same mousepad, on the same USB port, on the same computer. The differences were visible in mousetester. It was crazy.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> > It allows usage of the buttons and scroll wheel at the same time without changing your grip
> 
> Yes, while having downsides too. Less stability for your grip and can cause cramps due to pinky being too far and the only finger to support the grip.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xCIniRmLKw&t=51m38s


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> There's also much more variation in tracking from mouse to mouse with the FM 2015 than any other mouse I have ever seen. Like, Kohler managed to get three manufacturings that all tracked _completely differently_ on the same mousepad, on the same USB port, on the same computer. The differences were visible in mousetester. It was crazy.


A mousetester plot can vary differently purely through the fact that your hand does not swipe perfectly straight each time. Swiping slightly upwards or downwards with even the minute difference in angle can effect a mousetester plot.

This being said IR LED quality can differ. Bad LEDs do exist, and we have actually improved our sourcing for this to make sure it doesn't happen as often.

As for the other QC issues regarding the classic ergo I can assure everyone we have been paying attention to all concerns. The main three issues that we have found are as follows:

Click inconsistencies/too sensitive .. Or can be mushy

SOLUTION: We have opened the tooling completely and the mould has been adjusted for the holiday batch to completely fix the left and right clickers.

Mild scroll wheel rattle on some units :

SOLUTION: Have opened up tooling and mould will be updated for 2016 classic ergo batch.

Bad Omrons

SOLUTION: have changed sourcing methods

As for the occasional few who say they can perceive "lag". I recommend fighting crime as there is a real lack of superheroes in our society. We have tested our input latency both through code simulation and physical testing, and everything is as you would expect with the 3310 architecture.

Ive asked marketing to upload our slow motion test footage done on a high speed camera to put into perspective how fast these microsecond discrepancies are.

That being said, we are very close to sending out beta samples of a more "brute force approach" sensor with a far higher frame rate to boot. We will be curious to see how everyone feels about a beefier chip. But as always we are treading lightly since more powerful brute force chipsets have not always been the most popular.

And lastly, all those QC issues I mentioned do not exist at all in the first ambi batch, I think you guys will be surprised with how good it feels.

Kind Regards,
Jude

PS. No one can manufacture the classic ergo shell anymore and we have locked the tooling files in our vaults


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We have tested our input latency both through code simulation and physical testing, and everything is as you would expect with the 3310 architecture.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/200_100#post_24287992
http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/200_100#post_24332362
http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24401063

2ms on top of the 2ms inherent to 3310 due to smoothing
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> PS. No one can manufacture the classic ergo shell anymore and we have locked the tooling files in our vaults


http://www.overclock.net/t/1580221/rapoo-v12-finalmouse-shell-what-sensor/0_100
uwotm8


----------



## wareya

Yeah swiping differently between measurements definitely results in a lot of jitter on the graph








Quote:


> This being said IR LED quality can differ.


I strongly believe that this is the main problem with the FM 2015's manufacturing variance.
Quote:


> As for the occasional few who say they can perceive "lag". I recommend fighting crime as there is a real lack of superheroes in our society. We have tested our input latency both through code simulation and physical testing, and everything is as you would expect with the 3310 architecture.


So why do you have 2ms more lag than you're capable of due to the MCU smoothing that you used? What do you have to say about this?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/230#post_24329201

The g100 beats the FM 2015 by 4ms. Other 3310 mice only lose by like 2ms. Why is the FM 2015 2ms slower than other 3310 mice? The 500hz polling rate can only be responsible for 0.5ms of that, 1.0ms in the most pathological and impossible cases possible.

This isn't a test where minor error has a long term effect.
Quote:


> Ive asked marketing to upload our slow motion test footage done on a high speed camera to put into perspective how fast these microsecond discrepancies are.


1) So you're saying that there are discrepancies?

2) Please don't make things up. This is whole milliseconds of difference. When you approach 5ms of extra latency it becomes a tangible effect on performance. You don't have to feel it for it to have an effect. Extra latency is extra latency, and when your OEM gives you firmware that has more lag than it should, that's not a problem you can sweep under the rug when your whole shtick is unprocessed unparalleled response.
Quote:


> That being said, we are very close to sending out beta samples of a more "brute force approach"


So you mean more pure and unprocessed like you guys have (wrongly) said the FM 2015 is the king of?
Quote:


> sensor


Oh no.
Quote:


> with a far higher frame rate to boot


The sensor framerate is by far the very least of your problems. You guys are either liars or you're very badly mismanaged.


----------



## qsxcv

well 3320 has lower framerate so probably 3366


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/200_100#post_24287992
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/200_100#post_24332362
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24401063
> 
> 2ms on top of the 2ms inherent to 3310 due to smoothing
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1580221/rapoo-v12-finalmouse-shell-what-sensor/0_100
> uwotm8


Testing input latency in the range of ~2ms in physical comparison swipes is simply not accurate or consistent on mousetester software. I had performed the same just to experiment and had instances of an FM being anywhere from 7ms faster to 7ms slower. It is simply not a consistent method. Even something as simple as coefficient of drag and point of impact with the two mice that are facing opposite each other can effect results.

I think you will find our high speed camera metrics to be a bit more verifiable .

i will let you be the judge .

-Jude

PS. Any left over shells on the market for the classic ergo are simply left over stock from distribution channels


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well 3320 has lower framerate so probably 3366


Oooooo if they actually minimize the latency and improve the build quality and QC I will definitely give FM another chance.


----------



## qsxcv

first off, the 2ms does exist. or do i need to explain another time how your firmware works?

second, the method is reasonably consistent if you do it carefully.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24381009
first ~100 or so counts are accurate to +-1ms
Quote:


> coefficient of drag


oh are you testing your mice underwater?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well 3320 has lower framerate so probably 3366
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oooooo if they actually minimize the latency and improve the build quality and QC I will definitely give FM another chance.
Click to expand...

probably other companies will release their 3366 mice as well


----------



## Buttnose

Replacement mouse feet/1000hz + mcu smoothing switch for FM 2015?


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Testing input latency in the range of ~2ms in physical comparison swipes is simply not accurate or consistent on mousetester software.


Yes it is.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I had performed the same just to experiment and had instances of an FM being anywhere from 7ms faster to 7ms slower. It is simply not a consistent method.


If you got that much variation out of this test then you really messed up doing it. It's not that hard. If you really, honestly, didn't mess anything up, then the FM has 7ms of latency and your reference mouse has a random amount of latency from 0 to 14ms. Do you really want 7ms of latency, or are you just making things up?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Even something as simple as coefficient of drag and point of impact with the two mice that are facing opposite each other can effect results.


If friction is affecting this test then you're doing it wrong. If the point of impact is affecting the test then you're doing it wrong. Seems to me like you don't understand the test and you're going full damage control.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I think you will find our high speed camera metrics to be a bit more verifiable .


A camera recording monitor images that are locked at 7ms intervals *best case scenario* are more reliable than reading the polls straight out of the mouse? What world do you live in? Is your supervisor lying to you?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> i will let you be the judge .


If you were to let us be the judges you wouldn't be telling us that we're wrong and you're right.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> PS. Any left over shells on the market for the classic ergo are simply left over stock from distribution channels


You used an OEM shell. What do you expect?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> first off, the 2ms does exist. or do i need to explain another time how your firmware works?
> 
> second, the method is reasonably consistent if you do it carefully.
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24381009
> first ~100 or so counts are accurate to +-1ms
> probably other companies will release their 3366 mice as well


We will have to agree to disagree on the consistency of that testing.

As for the 2ms. Putting aside the 500hz factor. How have you calculated the operation time of the low pass filter . Maybe I am missing something. But based off by understanding in speaking with our application engineer the low pass filter computes in far less than 2ms. I simply don't see how you have calculated the operation time of the low pass filter.

As for the more brute force chip I don't know if there will be a filter on it. I'm pretry sure that firmware is being designed from the ground up completely so I will let you know as soon as I know. The only thing I can say is it is a higher power usage chip with the framerate to match .

-Jude


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> A camera recording monitor images that are locked at 7ms intervals *best case scenario* are more reliable than reading the polls straight out of the mouse? What world do you live in? Is your supervisor lying to you?
> 
> If you were to let us be the judges you wouldn't be telling us that we're wrong and you're right.


implying he has a supervisor









there's not much to be argued about here. it does exist as i've explained >10 times by now. you can discuss whether it's perceptible, whether it affects anyone's gameplay, whatever... but the fact is that it exists, it doesn't do anything good, and the reason they had it in the first place is not because they found it to be better, but because whatever firmware the odm stuck in the mouse had it, which is why jude didn't even acknowledge its existence originally
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> As for the 2ms. Putting aside the 500hz factor. How have you calculated the operation time of the low pass filter . Maybe I am missing something. But based off by understanding in speaking with our application engineer the low pass filter computes in far less than 2ms. I simply don't see how you have calculated the operation time of the low pass filter.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24401063

it's not exactly the same as an exact 2ms delay, but its effect is arguably the same.

in case you forget to scroll down, here's the code i used
http://pastebin.com/ieup9qxM


----------



## wareya

Don't forget that your latency measurement method for the IIR filter is justified by working correctly for the FIR filter (10ms window -> 5ms latency).


----------



## Buttnose

I guess replacement mouse feet and 1000hz + mcu smoothing switch won't be happening then. FM would get so much positive recognition for providing these things and could even stand to possibly cut a profit from making the replacement mouse feet available. Why not even acknowledge these subjects anymore? Even if the answer is that they won't be happening its surely better to say that, than just hoping your customers will forget about it and instead buy your next product - where perhaps these things won't be an issue anymore?


----------



## wareya

I mean I really do think that the FM 2015's problems are the result of an accident or some kind of single employee incompetence. But it's messed up that they continually try to sweep it under the rug.

If the next ergo has a sensor without built-in smoothing and doesn't have extra smoothing in the MCU and they keep the competently low click delay, I see no reason to avoid it simply due to a grudge against them. Good hardware would be good hardware, if it's good. Hell, even if they kept the 3310 and just fixed the MCU smoothing, it would still be fine.

please stop using a deprecated method for stopping tracking when you lift off tho it increases surface compatibility problems


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Ok yea.... I see now the inference. But I dont think the comparison of smoothed data in that sense can be defined as "delay". Since its technically not.

Regardless, the original factory firmware with the low pass filter for better or worse is embedded in the feel of the original classic ergo. This is not my opinion on the matter, but I know discussion will have to be had on whether to keep a filter moving forward on every implementation or not.... Because unfortunately alot of pros, some you know, some who you dont, have gotten very accustomed to liking the feel of the finalmouse.

I think the best solution moving forward is to simply decide on which signature models will have a filter and which will not. And this isn't even to customize each mouse for a particular professional , because it's not like anyone is going to be able to blindly detect the filter...... Personally I believe this should be an option for people such as yourselves in this community.

Good news is we have opened and purchased the firmware, so even if we are looking at a future 3310 variant where we dont have to build the code from scratch it's simply a matter of which signature model can we make changes too. Because each signature model is designed for a specific person and people by nature do not want change when they like something.

Very soon here you will see what I mean by these signature options, and you will see there is a lot of room for customization, it's simply a matter of making sure players like the feel of the product.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I mean I really do think that the FM 2015's problems are the result of an accident or some kind of single employee incompetence. But it's messed up that they continually try to sweep it under the rug.
> 
> If the next ergo has a sensor without built-in smoothing and doesn't have extra smoothing in the MCU and they keep the competently low click delay, I see no reason to avoid it simply due to a grudge against them. Good hardware would be good hardware, if it's good. Hell, even if they kept the 3310 and just fixed the MCU smoothing, it would still be fine.


I buy products based on performance and value. I don't hold a grudge or have brand loyalty.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Because unfortunately alot of pros, some you know, some who you dont, have gotten very accustomed to liking the feel of the finalmouse.


yea well how do you know they wouldn't like the feel of it without the filtering even more?


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> But I dont think the comparison of smoothed data in that sense can be defined as "delay". Since its technically not.


2ms to reach 50% the destination point
4ms to reach 75% the destination point
6ms to reach 87% the destination point
how is this *not* a delay? calling it a 2ms delay is actually generous, because it's only 2ms for smooth accelerations, and is effectively higher when you have sharper and sharper motions.
Quote:


> Regardless, the original factory firmware with the low pass filter for better or worse is embedded in the feel of the original classic ergo.


Yes, the OEM firmware with the filter is how the FM 2015 feels.
Quote:


> I know discussion will have to be had on whether to keep a filter moving forward on every implementation or not.... Because unfortunately alot of pros, some you know, some who you dont, have gotten very accustomed to liking the feel of the finalmouse.
> 
> I think the best solution moving forward is to simply decide on which signature models will have a filter and which will not.


Here's what you do: Let pros flash a smoothed firmware. Ship an unsmoothed firmware by default because that's what you're shipping. Tell people to try out the smoothed firmware if the mouse feels funny.

Configurable smoothing is something mice lack. You guys could be the first to take it seriously and you can put a good spin on your old smoothed model. Why don't you do something like this? Then you don't lock consumers who don't want or do want smoothed firmware into what they don't want just because they bought the wrong model.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> implying he has a supervisor


I still cant tell if the mental image I got from that just now was creepy. Probably shouldn't have mentioned this in the first place but whatevs.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> cut a profit


I'm starting to wonder if Mototech is the one actually laughing it's way to the bank.
Quote:


> Because unfortunately alot of pros, some you know, some who you dont, have gotten very accustomed to liking the feel of the finalmouse.


As for "pros" and their feels, your product is one of the main reasons I look at "pros" opinions with a lot of skepticism now.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> I guess replacement mouse feet and 1000hz + mcu smoothing switch won't be happening then. FM would get so much positive recognition for providing these things and could even stand to possibly cut a profit from making the replacement mouse feet available. Why not even acknowledge these subjects anymore? Even if the answer is that they won't be happening its surely better to say that, than just hoping your customers will forget about it and instead buy your next product - where perhaps these things won't be an issue anymore?


Mouse feet are most certainly happening... I mentioned before we would wait for a bit to see if any third parties offered them... but we have finally decided to simply offer it ourselves.

And no filter can most definitely happen like i just said in my last post. We have many many model variants coming in the 2016. It is simply figuring out which model variant to apply changes too.

Just as an example.. The first signature model will have an japanese imported ALPS encoder. Why? Because a certain pro liked the feel better, and it was something the community also wanted. Japan factory omrons will also be in it for the same reason.

Teflon feet style/number/position, rubber vs braided, encoder, switches, filter vs no filter, light vs no light.... all are options COMPLETELY on the table for the 3310 signature variants.

I wasnt supposed to say this but... another company REP who has been on these forums before will be dealing with community management heavily moving forward since he has just joined finalmouse, and when he introduces himself any day here he is going to be heavily tying these decisions with the signature variants with your community voices/opinions


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yea well how do you know they wouldn't like the feel of it without the filtering even more?


Ha.. We most definitely have. Just last week we sent scream a box of 10 finalmouse variants to see if he liked any better than the original he got 2 months ago. He is still on his original. Others simply dont care or dont notice any difference.

The most vocal a pro gets with us is with things like shape. The shape of the classic ergo was one of the biggest deterrents for pros that had grievances.


----------



## Klopfer

I would like , japanese Omron or Cherry switches ( yea, i like their microswitches too







) , ALPS Encoder , non braided cable , glossy or "Mionix rubberlike" finish , 4 skatez ( IE style ) like the Hotline Games competition series , 400 CPI / 800 CPI / and some really High CPI for trolling







, leightweight as much as it can be , so NO LED ... No filter , No smoothing , just pure raw feeling ...
as for shape ...
hmmm hard , im nearly never happy enough with any shape , dont like the "classic FM" ...
prefer , shapes like Avior , Castor , Sensei , WMO , IE3.0 ...
but Ive got big hands ... an EC1 is just a bit too small for me ,Sensei too ...
Avior/Castor I claw more , so it's OK ....
I've got hopes into the Cougar 450M , coz it's a big Ambi ...
( sry bad english )


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Ha.. We most definitely have. Just last week we sent scream a box of 10 finalmouse variants to see if he liked any better than the original he got 2 months ago. He is still on his original. Others simply dont care or dont notice any difference.


the way i see it, is that it's sort of like the ~5ms button lag some mice have. yea maybe it's not noticeable, maybe it is, but it's not necessary because there's a better way to do things.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@Klopfer

Well as for shape you wont have much else to choose from until 2017 except for the ambi or the classic ergo. We have simply put in way too much effort and investment into the ambi to do another shape very soon. But we feel pretty confident the ambi will have a wide reach in terms of who it appeals to.


----------



## wareya

doesn't scream use mouse accel? that would affect how smoothing feels

I imagine at 500hz mouse and high ingame fps, smoothing might slightly improve the reliability of CSGO's enormously crappy mouse acceleration code.

if he uses windows accel, it would have a bigger effect because it's not behind the "every input in this frame" bucket of polls that csgo's mouse acceleration code uses

however the best way to handle jitter for mouse acceleration is to smooth the values going into the function that determines how much to multiply the mouse movement by, and to not smooth the mouse inputs themselves that get multiplied by the acceleration function.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

No he doesnt use accel. I dont think we have run into anyone yet that uses accel.


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> @Klopfer
> 
> Well as for shape you wont have much else to choose from until 2017 except for the ambi or the classic ergo. We have simply put in way too much effort and investment into the ambi to do another shape very soon. But we feel pretty confident the ambi will have a wide reach in terms of who it appeals to.


yea , saw the picture , looks a bit bigger as classic FM , but not much ...
so maybe too small and/or too big







( really small mices I can claw )
a shape for "me" which fits perfect, could only designed by myself


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> yea , saw the picture , looks a bit bigger as classic FM , but not much ... so maybe too small and/or too big
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ( really small mices I can claw )
> a shape for "me" which fits perfect, could only designed by myself


Well maybe in 5 years everyone will be 3d printing their shells with files we provide them









And im not sure why everyone thought it looked bigger than the classic in the pictures. Its very close to the same length. The height of the ambi is much lower though.


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Mouse feet are most certainly happening... I mentioned before we would wait for a bit to see if any third parties offered them... but we have finally decided to simply offer it ourselves.
> 
> And no filter can most definitely happen like i just said in my last post. We have many many model variants coming in the 2016. It is simply figuring out which model variant to apply changes too.
> 
> Just as an example.. The first signature model will have an japanese imported ALPS encoder. Why? Because a certain pro liked the feel better, and it was something the community also wanted. Japan factory omrons will also be in it for the same reason.
> 
> Teflon feet style/number/position, rubber vs braided, encoder, switches, filter vs no filter, light vs no light.... all are options COMPLETELY on the table for the 3310 signature variants.
> 
> I wasnt supposed to say this but... another company REP who has been on these forums before will be dealing with community management heavily moving forward since he has just joined finalmouse, and when he introduces himself any day here he is going to be heavily tying these decisions with the signature variants with your community voices/opinions


If both those first two changes are coming to the FM2015 thats great! The room for customization on the signature variants sounds really good too, just hope the mice keep the understated look as I'll be having a hard time stomaching having to purchase anything with a CSGO players name on it, or their face/name plastered on the box. Welcome FinalmouseMaximilianKohler!


Just wish you had confirmed the replacement mouse feet earlier







Anyone want to buy 8 sets of Microsoft IEM mouse feet?

Or a 200x200 teflon sheet??


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Well maybe in 5 years everyone will be 3d printing their shells with files we provide them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And im not sure why everyone thought it looked bigger than the classic in the pictures. Its very close to the same length. The height of the ambi is much lower though.


the length looks so , but a bit smaller in the width ... a max height of min 37mm would be good for me , 40-45mm would be better







, but it looks not so height , more lower around ~38mm ...


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@Buttnose

Sorry









And unfortunately the first signature variant is a little more flashy..... some people may love it some people may not.

Signing off for now... our community manager will introduce himself to you guys soon and he plans on doing a lot of monthly video press releases for the community.

Just keep pressuring us and being vocal and you guys will get the features you want in the variants.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Ha.. We most definitely have. Just last week we sent scream a box of 10 finalmouse variants to see if he liked any better than the original he got 2 months ago. He is still on his original. Others simply dont care or dont notice any difference.
> 
> The most vocal a pro gets with us is with things like shape. The shape of the classic ergo was one of the biggest deterrents for pros that had grievances.


Keep in mind that Scream has used the 3988 DeathAdder for a long time.

Too bad the side buttons on the symmetrical shape are not like the Zowie ZA. I don't like the shape of them and how high they are.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> No he doesnt use accel. I dont think we have run into anyone yet that uses accel.


The only pro level player that I am aware of that uses acceleration is Swag.


----------



## SmashTV

Seeing this last exchange with Jude makes me appreciate the honesty that CPate has whenever he posts.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> I would like , japanese Omron


i suspect that d2fc-f-7n's may actually be more robust than d2f-01f's, with regards to double clicking/bouncing issues. today and yesterday, while awping, my g303 with d2f-01f's scoped in an extra time once or twice.

had similar issue with my 1st g100s+d2f-01fs' left click, though my 2nd g100s+d2f-01f's is still fine.

that said, the tactile feel of 01f's is so much better than that of 7n's


----------



## wareya

my DA was doubleclicking then I accidentally bent the piece of plastic that pushes down on the button and shaved down the pillar too much to compensate and had to cover it in tin foil to make up for the gap and it stopped happening.

So it seems like some kind of odd issue with the pillar that presses down on the switch can cause the switch to act weird. Point where pressure is applied?


----------



## Klopfer

@qsxcv
What u think about cherrys? For me they feel a bit more responsive, I will check later evening which Switches I exactly mean.
Why i prefer japanese more as chinese ones, is I think just in my brain.

Edit:
like the Cherry DG13B1AA & DG23B1LA


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Well as for shape you wont have much else to choose from until 2017 except for the ambi or the classic ergo. We have simply put in way too much effort and investment into the ambi to do another shape very soon. But we feel pretty confident the ambi will have a wide reach in terms of who it appeals to.


Do you have any ambi versions that are the same basic shape, but are scaled up or down in size? Like Zowie mice ZA11/12/13?

I would really like to purchase a ambi that was scaled larger since I have very big hands.


----------



## ncck

So should I wait? I'm a person who likes the 2x2 style mousefeet and braided cables (I hate rubber cables!). I also dislike the light of the FM on the back haha.

Glad to hear all the good news and mouse customization sounds pretty sweet. I think your company won't regret going down this path.. me and many competitive players are looking for stuff just like this.

P.S: Give your facebook page some love too!


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

When you sent the mouse to ScreaM did you take his old Finalmouse back? You gotta make sure he sticks to it for a week before you jump to any conclusions. Its also possible even he can't notice it due to having used smoothed mouse for so long. Iirc he used to use the DA 2013 which is a mouse noted by a couple people here to have smoothing.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i suspect that d2fc-f-7n's may actually be more robust than d2f-01f's, with regards to double clicking/bouncing issues. today and yesterday, while awping, my g303 with d2f-01f's scoped in an extra time once or twice.
> 
> had similar issue with my 1st g100s+d2f-01fs' left click, though my 2nd g100s+d2f-01f's is still fine.
> 
> that said, the tactile feel of 01f's is so much better than that of 7n's


Aren't they rated at 5 million? That's the downside. Lighter switches tend to die faster, especially when there is over-travel. Which is why I suggested two variants for the 2 different audiences.


----------



## Nixtix

Does anyone have any issues with the Mouse 5 button sticking and not coming out? I had one occurrence of it happen and I didn't notice it until someone said I had a hot mic in CSGO.

Also, I can't wait for the FM Ambi to come out, hopefully they announce something this week


----------



## Hnnng

has anyone experienced or have knowledge of an issue for the finalmouse 2015 summer edition where it spazzes randomly causing my crosshair to at times randomly just flick up or down usually? It isn't an issue that occurs consistently, regularly or one that I can reciprocate, but once in a while when it happens, I have to readjust my crosshair so I'm not looking at the ground or sky and it gets annoying when I'm in a fight and it happens. In addition, my mouse sometimes clicks mouse1 without me touching the button whenever i lift up my mouse and place it back down (could I be placing my mouse down too hard?) or when I accidently hit it against my keyboard (my desk is small).

Do I have a defective product and should I contact support? Any responses are appreciated


----------



## thatgold

@hnnng

My first summer edition did the crosshair business quite a lot, like 2-3 times per game of CS.

My second one does it once like every 1-2 weeks it seems.

That click on putting the mouse down though, never had that, you should contact support.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> @qsxcv
> What u think about cherrys? For me they feel a bit more responsive, I will check later evening which Switches I exactly mean.
> Why i prefer japanese more as chinese ones, is I think just in my brain.


never tried idk


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

http://imgur.com/a/CceKr

always wondered what happened to this. it was from a deleted thread where the op was trying to do his own thing using the same factory as finalmouse at the time lol.


----------



## qsxcv

oh that guy who got some samples from motospeed under the guise of creating a kickstarter?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> oh that guy who got some samples from motospeed under the guise of creating a kickstarter?


a

ahahaha good lord


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> a
> 
> ahahaha good lord


He admitted the kickstarter was only so he could get samples xD

still laughing


----------



## Ino.

To be fair, he had the samples already and then made a Kickstarter to see if there was interest for the least amount needed in a single order (1000 units) but there wasn't.


----------



## Jonagold

As a competitive cs:go -player consistency is one of the most important things. Competitive players prefer to stick with something that works rather than to try new things. I suspect ScreaM don't have time to get used to anything different because he has to stay on point with his aiming to win matches. Using other delay/movement -values will definitely throw sophisticated muscle memory off no matter if they are worse or better..


----------



## wareya

took me weeks to unlearn 20ms click delay


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> As a competitive cs:go -player consistency is one of the most important things. Competitive players prefer to stick with something that works rather than to try new things. I suspect ScreaM don't have time to get used to anything different because he has to stay on point with his aiming to win matches. Using other delay/movement -values will definitely throw sophisticated muscle memory off no matter if they are worse or better..


I don't think it will be an issue considering the way Scream plays.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I don't think it will be an issue considering the way Scream plays.


I don't think you got what I meant. I meant that different sensor movement or delay will cause problems with muscle memory no matter if it gets better or worse. Muscle memory adapts to even delay, making you able to perform with delay. That doesn't change the fact that less delay means better response time allowing you to utilize your eye-hand coordination better..

Even when professional player can perform with bad equipment on this current professional level doesn't mean he is not handicapped..

When the reaction time eye to muscle movement is around *200ms*, our brain gets the information from our eyes much faster than that. According to some studies even as fast as *13ms*! http://www.livescience.com/42666-human-brain-sees-images-record-speed.html

If the cursor/crosshair is 4ms delayed, it means that the total delay increases from 13ms to 17ms, percentage lincrease of about 30%!!

That is the delay that our brain needs to deal with when calculating the proper command for our muscles..


----------



## aerowalk30

I could see why it might be an issue if you pick up a new mouse for an hour but pros are playing a considerable amount of time every day and I would think any change in delay or sensor would be negated within a couple days of playing.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I don't think you got what I meant. I meant that different sensor movement or delay will cause problems with muscle memory no matter if it gets better or worse. Muscle memory adapts to even delay, making you able to perform with delay. That doesn't change the fact that less delay means better response time allowing you to utilize your eye-hand coordination better..
> 
> That is the delay that our brain needs to deal with when calculating the proper command for our muscles..


From what I can tell, Scream focuses on his crosshair when he aims. So, "muscle memory" won't be affected. It would be annoying to have higher latency, but he will perform very similar to when he used the 3988 DeathAdder.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> I could see why it might be an issue if you pick up a new mouse for an hour but pros are playing a considerable amount of time every day and I would think any change in delay or sensor would be negated within a couple days of playing.


More like a couple hours of DM.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> I could see why it might be an issue if you pick up a new mouse for an hour but pros are playing a considerable amount of time every day and I would think any change in delay or sensor would be negated within a couple days of playing.


Actually it can take more than that, you have to basically practice over your old muscle memories until they are completely forgotten and new ones have replaced the old ones.. It takes days to somewhat adapt but easily a month to get back to your 100% performance. Pros are having matches like every other day, they have no time to adapt to a new equipment. It is not worth for them to perform badly in some matches just to test a different mouse. Easier to try it for couple of hours and see that it doesn't match the current muscle memory and call it bad..


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Actually it can take more than that, you have to basically practice over your old muscle memories until they are completely forgotten and new ones have replaced the old ones.. It takes days to somewhat adapt but easily a month to get back to your 100% performance. Pros are having matches like every other day, they have no time to adapt to a new equipment. It is not worth for them to perform badly in some matches just to test a different mouse. Easier to try it for couple of hours and see that it doesn't match the current muscle memory and call it bad..


Sean Gares [Cloud 9] switched from the G402 to the G303 prior to a LAN event. He spent hours in DM to get accustomed. He performed better than previous events.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> From what I can tell, Scream focuses on his crosshair when he aims. So, "muscle memory" won't be affected. It would be annoying to have higher latency, but he will perform very similar to when he used the 3988 DeathAdder.
> More like a couple hours of DM.


Muscle memory is always involved when aiming no matter of your technique. The amount that you need to move your hand in order to move your crosshair for the distance that your brain has decided according to what you see on the screen.. Even if the movement is only like 1 cm on the mouse-mat AKA "aim correction". Scream just uses multiple "aim corrections" in his style.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Sean Gares [Cloud 9] switched from the G402 to the G303 prior to a LAN event. He spent hours in DM to get accustomed. He performed better than previous events.


All logitech mice has similar sensor performance, under 1ms sensor delay and those two mice also has the very same button delay. That makes his old muscle memory to match his new mouse so no new muscle memory required..

When you are not using your individual fingers for aiming the shape don't really matter that much, you get the solid grip (no matter how you get it) and the movement happens with your wrist and arm..

Only problem I see there is that the sensor position is different with those mice, how ever you could achieve a similar distance from your pivot point to the sensor by different gripping techniques..


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> All logitech mice has similar sensor performance, under 1ms sensor delay and those two mice also has the very same button delay. That makes his old muscle memory to match his new mouse so no new muscle memory required..
> 
> When you are not using your individual fingers for aiming the shape don't really matter that much, you get the solid grip (no matter how you get it) and the movement happens with your wrist and arm..
> 
> Only problem I see there is that the sensor position is different with those mice, how ever you could achieve a similar distance from your pivot point to the sensor by different gripping techniques..


The shape and FPS are different. The shape of the G303 is a massive change.

The 3988 DeathAdder and the 3310 a similar in their latency. Regardless, Scream's performance will not change much if at all considering how he plays. For instance, he was switching between the 3988 DeathAdder and Intellimouse Explorer 3.


----------



## Kayed

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> how he plays


what do you mean


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kayed*
> 
> what do you mean


http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/2880_30#post_24610129


----------



## Kayed

I highly doubt he focuses on his crosshair. You cant react fast enough at the speed he flicks, honestly even with little experience you should know where the center of your screen is.

+how do you know where you are flicking to if you aren't even looking at them


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kayed*
> 
> I highly doubt he focuses on his crosshair. You cant react fast enough at the speed he flicks, honestly even with little experience you should know where the center of your screen is.
> 
> +how do you know where you are flicking to if you aren't even looking at them


"You cant react fast enough at the speed he flicks"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MKkb5OiQIY&t=2m16s

"how do you know where you are flicking to if you aren't even looking at them"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MKkb5OiQIY&t=3m26s


----------



## Kayed

Im saying you cant flick like that while staring at your crosshair. You cant prove he was staring at the center of his screen the whole time.

He didn't even flick on people in that video, idk what you're trying to prove


----------



## Aventadoor

Thats the beauty of "higher" sensitivity. You can flick so fast so effortlessly, but it requires alot of training and you could say that many cant control it consistently.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kayed*
> 
> Im saying you cant flick like that while staring at your crosshair. You cant prove he was staring at the center of his screen the whole time.
> 
> He didn't even flick on people in that video, idk what you're trying to prove


First of all, there is a thing called peripheral vision. Second, he can switch focus to different things when ever he wants.

In the first Youtube link you can see how he places his crosshair at the edges of the wall, how fast/slow he reacts/flicks to the opponent and the pre aiming he does based off his experience with the map.

In the second link you can see him pre aim spots, how he focuses on placing his crosshair at a specific spot during movement and his hesitation before shooting. See how erratic his cursor movement is when rounding a corner?

Look at his crosshair. It's bright green, the size is small-medium, it barely expands and it has a small gap. Those attributes indicate that the crosshair is being relied on more than it isn't. If you were to focus on the target only, you would want to have a gap large enough to not block your view.

The easiest way to find out how he plays is to ask him to play with the crosshair disabled (iBP Dazed did it on stream when asked). If he does badly it's because he relies/focuses on the crosshair a lot.

Scream doesn't often move his mouse/cursor fast. His sensitivity is on the higher side and he uses his fingers and wrist to move the mouse.


----------



## Kayed

That's a lot better then just linking 2 videos,
thankyou


----------



## Ijee

Does anyone else have problems with getting any answer through their support system? I've been waiting for like 7 or 8 weeks now and since then made 3 tickets which did nothing at all.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> took me weeks to unlearn 20ms click delay


Little story: It took 4 weeks to unlearn inverted after 10 yrs.
1) the desktop is that way and 2) people write that way and 3) you practice it every day.
So... its the right thing to do. I almost gave up until a sensei moment:
"write with the mouse grasshopper"...and everything was instantly better.
I suppose it has helped, well I can write with the mouse now anyway. Couldn't do that before.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> took me weeks to unlearn 20ms click delay
> 
> 
> 
> Little story: It took 4 weeks to unlearn inverted after 10 yrs.
> 1) the desktop is that way and 2) people write that way and 3) you practice it every day.
> So... its the right thing to do. I almost gave up until a sensei moment:
> "write with the mouse grasshopper"...and everything was instantly better.
> I suppose it has helped, well I can write with the mouse now anyway. Couldn't do that before.
Click to expand...

I used to be able to write with the mouse but my hand moves in weird ways cause I used a diamond shape for over a year. Waiting on my Xornet


----------



## SeeYou

@FinalmouseJude

Do you plan any offsale for Black Friday?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SeeYou*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude
> 
> Do you plan any offsale for Black Friday?


The insane price markup on what is probably a sub ten dollar mouse isn't a good indicator for discounts.


----------



## popups

Any update on the release day of the symmetrical FinalMouse?

At this point, if I am going to buy a 3310 mouse, it's between the Flick G1 or the "ambi" FinalMouse.


----------



## Sencha

Nope no updates at the moment.


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

FM ambi

#Q4_2019


----------



## Soo8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kyotkyotkyot*
> 
> FM ambi
> 
> #Q4_2019



Worth the wait.


----------



## TburdzZ

So I own the finalmouse 2015 but one of the buttons is dead and im going to rma it but I can't go a week without some Csgo. What im thinking of doing is ordering a zowie fk1 or ec2a off amazon trying it in my fm down time and seeing if I like it more. Is it worth it is the fk good or am I going to like the fm more. How does the zowie fk1 weight compare to the fm.

Grip is Palm claw hybrid

Dpi is 400

Games Csgo

I know both these mice don't have prediction

Thanks so much.


----------



## Soo8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> So I own the finalmouse 2015 but one of the buttons is dead and im going to rma it but I can't go a week without some Csgo. What im thinking of doing is ordering a zowie fk1 or ec2a off amazon trying it in my fm down time and seeing if I like it more. Is it worth it is the fk good or am I going to like the fm more. How does the zowie fk1 weight compare to the fm.


It's all personal preference. The zowies both will be about 10-20g heavier than the FM.
You may not like the zowies 3310 implementation though.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Sean Gares [Cloud 9] switched from the G402 to the G303 prior to a LAN event. He spent hours in DM to get accustomed. He performed better than previous events.
> 
> 
> 
> All logitech mice has similar sensor performance, under 1ms sensor delay and those two mice also has the very same button delay. That makes his old muscle memory to match his new mouse so no new muscle memory required..
> 
> When you are not using your individual fingers for aiming the shape don't really matter that much, you get the solid grip (no matter how you get it) and the movement happens with your wrist and arm..
> 
> Only problem I see there is that the sensor position is different with those mice, how ever you could achieve a similar distance from your pivot point to the sensor by different gripping techniques..
Click to expand...

G303 has 4ms more click delay I think


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> G303 has 4ms more click delay I think


They increased g402 button delay for the latest firmware because some ppl with sausage fingers complained about non-existent double-click issue..


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> They increased g402 button delay for the latest firmware because some ppl with sausage fingers complained about non-existent double-click issue..


I know right? We can't have nice things.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Why can't they just use optical switches? No debounce needed because no signal bounce.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Why can't they just use optical switches? No debounce needed because no signal bounce.


Ugh I still need to get one of those silly A4tech mice. It has no chance though to actually be something useable to me. It would be literally blowing money to pop open the switches.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Why can't they just use optical switches? No debounce needed because no signal bounce.
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh I still need to get one of those silly A4tech mice. It has no chance though to actually be something useable to me. It would be literally blowing money to pop open the switches.
Click to expand...

Well you get the optical switches which you could use for a project or something.


----------



## Kayed

How does this mouse track on colored mats like the goliathus?


----------



## b0z0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kayed*
> 
> How does this mouse track on colored mats like the goliathus?


I know Roca from Team Complexity uses the Goliathus with the finalmouse without issues. This thing tracks amazingly on my Puretrak talent.


----------



## Bitemarks and bloodstains

Last few posts removed. Please do not discuss deleted posts.

If you look through the ToS you should be able to find the answer to those questions.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Telling people what not to discuss? Good luck.

If a 7 foot man isn't stopping me from driving to the rim, telling me(& i am sure others)'not to discuss deleted posts' won't stop anything. People have a genuine interest in what was deleted. What is it you expect? Silence from your asking & bringing up the TOS?

That's like taking an engaged 3 year old child's toy & saying 'no no little jim jim, mommy said power ranger blue guy is off limits' & not expecting said child to inquire about the toy anyway.

What do you expect from older people who love new products that may fit their wants/needs quite possibly? To just stop?

*Roll the Taken gangsters voice*Good luck....lol


----------



## Kayed

We should at least get an update from the company. It feels wierd getting often feedback from jude and then having none after he left.
Idk where this new guy is but I'm missing jude :*(


----------



## Nixtix

They said they are trying to get the Ambi out before the holiday rush, so I am expecting an announcement real soon or I'm afraid we won't be hearing from them until next year......


----------



## xIC3x

What switches will be used in the FM Ambi? Is the sensor 3310? Any smoothing?


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> What switches will be used in the FM Ambi? Is the sensor 3310? Any smoothing?


Smoothing galore


----------



## kyotkyotkyot




----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kyotkyotkyot*


You're missing the pitchforks.


----------



## M1st

Does anyone have the mouse's dimensions? Can't seem to find them anywhere xcept for amazon, but they seem to be incorrect there.


----------



## xIC3x

Hopefully the ambi won't be too small, I would love it to be around the size of SS Xai. Most of the ambi mouses seem to be tiny...


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Any update on the release day of the symmetrical FinalMouse?
> 
> At this point, if I am going to buy a 3310 mouse, it's between the Flick G1 or the "ambi" FinalMouse.


I don't think the ambi is small bro, There was some screens up but jude deleted them cause I guess they weren't final (no pun intended)

Hoping for some info soon tho..... ready to change mice and mousepad again... new year new me.. am i right?


----------



## Junki3e

@FinalmouseJude I hope you guys will have free shipping for RMAs in the future though. Im still using a slightly defective FM (Yes, the one using the OEM shell) and I can't get an RMA as shipping to Singapore will cost me about $36+ SGD, about the same price as a G100s here.


----------



## DRiMR

Why Finalmouse disappeared from amazon? new version comming?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> Hopefully the ambi won't be too small, I would love it to be around the size of SS Xai. Most of the ambi mouses seem to be tiny...


it looks to be pretty big


----------



## Cloudy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DRiMR*
> 
> Why Finalmouse disappeared from amazon? new version comming?


From their twitter,
Quote:


> North America is currently sold out of finalmouse's. Please stay tuned for updates... big changes happening soon for 2016/holidays! #esports


https://twitter.com/finalmouse/status/671347386741071872


----------



## SmashTV

I think they just halted production for whatever reason and got rid of their small inventory. Considering the source of the parts selling out totally would be hard to do.


----------



## TburdzZ

I think it's great that they are making a am I version but why don't they fix the original first. The buttons ok im sorry fm but they just straight up suck. The mouse feet are not good I suggest putting 2 huge feet instead of 4 small ones. The molds have imperfections which isn't that much of an issue but 67$ mouse should not have those problems. Lastly the overall build quality just feels bad.

All complaints aside I love the mouse but the g303 is still what sits on my desk with the fm staring at it from a table


----------



## CMRajiv

Hello all,
Rajiv Kothari here -- some of you may know me throughout the years as one the Cooler Master reps (and many still message me today on some of the older threads I've started). Unfortunately, it has been a while since I actively took part in community engagement, but I am happy to say that with I've now officially joined the Finalmouse team and community engagement is going to be at the forefront of everything I do.

Given time you guys will get to know me better as a gamer, hardware fanatic, and eSports enthusiast, but for the time being I want to start with immediately jumping into the fire and not only keeping you guys updated & answering high level questions, but also taking the valuable input that the OCN community (as well as guys over at Reddit, HLTV, ESEA, etc.) have to offer.

In addition to my presence via community forums I will also be releasing occasional video releases with behind the scenes footage of every aspect of Finalmouse, including design, development, our involvement in eSports, testing, you name it. Our goal here is to focus all of our resources and expertise into purely making eSports mice (you can even go as far as to say CS:GO focused for the time being). This is something that I feel proud being a part of, and I can't wait to share this passion with you guys.
Quote:


> "Designed to be the industry standard. No gimmicks, no frills, just pure performance for elite eSports athletes."


This motto rings true to the very backbone of everything here -- even going as far as making sure I was able to play CS:GO at a high enough level before getting the job.
So without further introductions, I'll be jumping into the conversation, and as far as posts that are more "promotional" those will be restricted to our social media and you guys will be in charge of bringing those posts/convos back to the forums.

Sincerely,
Rajiv "Rajface" Kothari


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Oh dear god....


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> I think it's great that they are making a am I version but why don't they fix the original first. The buttons ok im sorry fm but they just straight up suck. The mouse feet are not good I suggest putting 2 huge feet instead of 4 small ones. The molds have imperfections which isn't that much of an issue but 67$ mouse should not have those problems. Lastly the overall build quality just feels bad.
> 
> All complaints aside I love the mouse but the g303 is still what sits on my desk with the fm staring at it from a table


Before the posts were deleted, Finalmousejude said they were doing a refresh of the standard in 2016 that would fix all QC concerns apparently. Should expect ergonomic Finalmouse 2016 in early Q1 2016 from memory.


----------



## thatgold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CMRajiv*
> 
> Hello all,
> Rajiv Kothari here


If you're answering questions I have a few

- Where's Finalmousejude? Will he still be frequenting these forums?

- Has release date been pushed back? Posts regarding release date & pictures have been removed, does this mean we wont see ambidextrous model before Christmas?


----------



## CMRajiv

*Before the posts were deleted, Finalmousejude said they were doing a refresh of the standard in 2016 that would fix all QC concerns apparently. Should expect ergonomic Finalmouse 2016 in early Q1 2016 from memory.*
Quality control is a top priority for everything. We are well aware that because the QC of the original early release batch was iffy that we got some well deserved flack. But even after the summer edition improvements there is a lot that is and will be done based on feedback from the community.

The shell has been redone to make the left and right buttons feel way better, and the overall QC for every single component is always being fine tuned. So in the 2016 model (the next batch) you will see improvements to illumination quality, the clicks (improved mold completely), and some other minor things such as mousewheel rattle. The biggest one you will notice is the left and right clicks, those things feel amazing now. So in short, YES new batch will have tons of classic ergo quality improvements.

*Has release date been pushed back? Posts regarding release date & pictures have been removed, does this mean we wont see ambidextrous model before Christmas?*
We did not delete anything, but maybe a mod thought it was too promotional so it was removed. The ambi is still scheduled for holiday release (hopefully, because shipping delays this time of year happens).

*Where's Finalmousejude? Will he still be frequenting these forums?*
Jude will still be around occasionally







I think you'll find me way more active, though.


----------



## aerowalk30

lol


----------



## PU skunk

Great, looking forward to the ambi. Any final decision on whether the averaging (eh, low pass filter) will be removed ?


----------



## qsxcv

and pls make better firmware and/or stop using holtek mcus


----------



## aayman_farzand

Those comments about CSGO made me more hyped up than ever.

I hope to god this tracks on HDPE surfaces...but if it's a 3310 again..


----------



## thatgold

@CMRajiv,

I've gathered from the posts from Finalmousejude there will be many iterations of the Finalmouse Ambi signature. I was wondering if any of these iterations will have larger (or smaller) sizes scaled up or down.

i.e. How Zowie does their FK1/2, EC-1/2, ZA11/12/13.

This would be a really nice touch for those on both edges of the spectrum of hand sizes, large or small.

If not do you guys plan on doing this in the future?


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> but also taking the valuable input that the OCN community (as well as guys over at Reddit, *HLTV*, *ESEA*, etc.) have to offer.


This is absolutely the wrong place to look for input regarding a mouse.
Quote:


> Our goal here is to focus all of our resources and expertise into purely making eSports mice (you can even go as far as to say CS:GO focused for the time being).


Quote:


> "Designed to be the industry standard. No gimmicks, no frills, just pure performance for elite eSports athletes."


This also dooms the mouse for having those ridiculous zowie like DPI steps of 400/800/1600/3200 (seriously 3200??) because "you only need 400 dpi to become a super duper pro CS:GO player". And this elite eSports BS (sorry) is also EXACTLY the reason for not having software to adjust the steps in the first place.
I wouldn't be surprised if the new ambi version will feature huano switches...

Well if the new ambi doesn't feel similar to the WMO shape-wise i wouldn't care anyways..
Let's see how this all plays out.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> This is absolutely the wrong place to look for input regarding a mouse.
> We don't need a second Zowie ZA.
> 
> This also dooms the mouse for having those ridiculous zowie like DPI steps of 400/800/1600/3200 (seriously 3200??) because "you only need 400 dpi to become a super duper pro CS:GO player". And this elite eSports BS (sorry) is also EXACTLY the reason for not having software to adjust the steps in the first place.
> I wouldn't be surprised if the new ambi version will feature huano switches...
> 
> Well if the new ambi doesn't feel similar to the WMO shape-wise i wouldn't care anyways..
> Let's see how this all plays out.


A Zowie ZA that's taller in the front and wider would be very nice.

I don't mind only using 800 CPI.

Huano switches are better than mushy Chinese Omrons.


----------



## turnschuh

Yea that 2 points you mention would be a better ZA but theres still the misplaced hump which is imo to far in the back. not sure how you see that.

800 dpi is ok, yea. but having a firmware which has many useful steps like 400/600/800/1000 wouldn't harm anyone since you couldn't toggle between 2 dpi steps, due to the lack of software and more than 2 steps in total, anyways and therefore it wouldn't matter through how many steps you switch) not even speaking about fine tuning dpi in increments of 50.. because this would totally destroy their elite eSports hardcore pro FPS thing.
So yea it is a "CSGO mouse", good job!

Well like i said, when the shape is good, its gonna be fine for me as long as they dont screw it up in the QC kind of things..


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> So yea it is a "CSGO mouse", good job!


Next up: A wheel for CS.


----------



## turnschuh

an mwheel? ^^


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> an mwheel? ^^


----------



## turnschuh

lol. yea i thought about this wheel first.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: CMRajiv



Originally Posted by *CMRajiv* 

*Before the posts were deleted, Finalmousejude said they were doing a refresh of the standard in 2016 that would fix all QC concerns apparently. Should expect ergonomic Finalmouse 2016 in early Q1 2016 from memory.*
Quality control is a top priority for everything. We are well aware that because the QC of the original early release batch was iffy that we got some well deserved flack. But even after the summer edition improvements there is a lot that is and will be done based on feedback from the community.

The shell has been redone to make the left and right buttons feel way better, and the overall QC for every single component is always being fine tuned. So in the 2016 model (the next batch) you will see improvements to illumination quality, the clicks (improved mold completely), and some other minor things such as mousewheel rattle. The biggest one you will notice is the left and right clicks, those things feel amazing now. So in short, YES new batch will have tons of classic ergo quality improvements.

*Has release date been pushed back? Posts regarding release date & pictures have been removed, does this mean we wont see ambidextrous model before Christmas?*
We did not delete anything, but maybe a mod thought it was too promotional so it was removed. The ambi is still scheduled for holiday release (hopefully, because shipping delays this time of year happens).

*Where's Finalmousejude? Will he still be frequenting these forums?*
Jude will still be around occasionally







I think you'll find me way more active, though.



So you're still going for the stupid esports gamer marketing so no 50 CPI steps or finely adjustable LOD and an LED that can't be turned off because that isn't "esports" enough.

I hate this industry. We finally move past the A9800 and Zowie brings along the next bout of marketing cancer that FinalMouse is all too happy to copy.


----------



## a_ak57

The ZA series is fine. The hump placement is what sets it apart and makes it worthwhile, we already have a ton of mice with more forward positions. Just because it caters to a niche doesn't make it bad.


----------



## ncck

Will the ambi version releasing this winter be 'your' version only or both including the 'community version'

Because I only have plans to purchase the ambi featuring 4 mouse feet, Basically the original version you guys had was fine for me but the shape was completely wrong for me - then I heard the new ambi version (much more preferable shape to me) would be having two big mouse feet which I personally hate. So can you let me know when you plan to release the 4 feet one?

Also I agree the LED is not necessary and it was way too brutal.. hope it's not the same on the new one. Just want a solid performing mouse with an ambi shape. The zowie was close but not perfect and they take way too long to readjust anything. The fact that I have to 'rebuy the mouse' just to lessen the input lag on mouse clicks was a big enough joke to cease purchase from them. (Also for whatever reason I can't seem to 'spam single taps' on zowie mice as fast, it's like something inside the mouse limits how many clicks you can do within a certain time)


----------



## CMRajiv

I beg to differ
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> So you're still going for the stupid esports gamer marketing so no 50 CPI steps or finely adjustable LOD and an LED that can't be turned off because that isn't "esports" enough.
> 
> I hate this industry. We finally move past the A9800 and Zowie brings along the next bout of marketing cancer that FinalMouse is all too happy to copy.


I think we understand that we can't be the best solution for everyone (no product can, realistically) but we will still be very transparent in our communication and always take your feedback into consideration.
We're not opposed to doing anything that would ultimately make the Finalmouse better, but we also want to keep within the original design intention.


----------



## woll3

I feel offended by the fact that there are no drivers/software because "pro", it somewhat implies that im too stupid to set it up.


----------



## a_ak57

There's no benefit to not offering some sort of software, something like Mionix what offers for the Castor (doesn't install anything, just a program you open up and adjust settings, then it writes them to the mouse and you close it and it's as if it was never there). Well, there is the benefit for the business of not spending money/time on it, but for the consumer there is no benefit.

I think people would appreciate it if you actually just straight up said "we're a small company so we don't want to spend the time/money" rather than pretend there's actually some legitimate non-business reason for it and push some BS marketing regarding it. There's no "compromising a vision" to do something that literally only benefits consumers. If someone doesn't want to download a program, great, use the mouse with the default settings as you would have anyway. If they want to change stuff then they can. It's win-win. Not for the company though.


----------



## Gylfen

so the next batch coming on amazon uk is the 2016 version? or did i get it wrong?


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> There's no benefit to not offering some sort of software, something like Mionix what offers for the Castor (doesn't install anything, just a program you open up and adjust settings, then it writes them to the mouse and you close it and it's as if it was never there). Well, there is the benefit for the business of not spending money/time on it, but for the consumer there is no benefit.
> 
> I think people would appreciate it if you actually just straight up said "we're a small company so we don't want to spend the time/money" rather than pretend there's actually some legitimate non-business reason for it and push some BS marketing regarding it. There's no "compromising a vision" to do something that literally only benefits consumers. If someone doesn't want to download a program, great, use the mouse with the default settings as you would have anyway. If they want to change stuff then they can. It's win-win. Not for the company though.


Me personally I do not use drivers. But I can agree with your statement. The best of both worlds would be this in my mind.

Ex: A person can purchase the mouse and use it out of box. Via the mouse itself they can change the DPI and use it. Offer optional (not required) software to adjust the mouse HZ/LOD and other features that people may want to fool around with. Then they save the settings to the mouse and can close the software and not have it running at any time. This would satisfy both parties. (Pros, competitive players, and other users)


----------



## trism

Well it's pretty obvious the first version of Finalmouse was made by cutting some corners. Coding the software would cost a few bucks more so they wouldn't be making as much money per a sold unit or would need to ask for a higher price. Them and e.g. Zowie managed to just market their idea properly for unknown reasons and now there even are people saying that mice that have software suck...


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CMRajiv*
> 
> We're not opposed to doing anything that would ultimately make the Finalmouse better, but we also want to keep within the original design intention.


So, keeping the averaging then?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> There's no benefit to not offering some sort of software. I think people would appreciate it if you actually just straight up said "we're a small company so we don't want to spend the time/money


Whether true or not, what Jude said about how versatility compromises optimization is true in my experience. For instance If the thing polls better at 500hz, why add 1000hz possibly compromising performance and making it more error prone (don't know if that's true but just saying it's possible and we aren't the ones testing it). If you remember, the one compromise they did make with this mouse ( variable dpi ) turned around to bite them in the ass since it wasn't stable.


----------



## turnschuh

well thank you everyone for the recent replys regarding software!

also i can understand some of you liking the ZA hump placement. nothing wrong with that. did not want to generalize my opinion.


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> So, keeping the averaging then?
> Whether true or not, what Jude said about how versatility compromises optimization is true in my experience. For instance If the thing polls better at 500hz, why add 1000hz possibly compromising performance and making it more error prone (don't know if that's true but just saying it's possible and we aren't the ones testing it). If you remember, the one compromise they did make with this mouse ( variable dpi ) turned around to bite them in the ass since it wasn't stable.


they could "just" fix the it then. considering the price of the mouse.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> they could "just" fix the it then. considering the price of the mouse.


Yea really, seems less costs more nowadays. But that's Finalmouse' motto, unrefined, optimized and raw - and expensive. That's why its really important for them to get rid of every bit of averaging. There's plenty of logitechs and razers with smoothing and other options. Those used to standard options should probably not be looking at a finalmouse.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> So you're still going for the stupid esports gamer marketing so no 50 CPI steps or finely adjustable LOD and an LED that can't be turned off because that isn't "esports" enough.
> 
> I hate this industry. We finally move past the A9800 and Zowie brings along the next bout of marketing cancer that FinalMouse is all too happy to copy.


Mionix did a great thing with their configuration tool.

The 3310 is essentially a 9500/9800.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I think people would appreciate it if you actually just straight up said "we're a small company so we don't want to spend the time/money"


if they have anyone with a reasonable amount of experience with mcu's and coding, it wouldn't take longer than a week to make some basic software and modify the firmware to allow for changing the dpi steps and maybe lod and other stuff.
o wait they dont


----------



## IlIkeJuice

They most likely have that already as development and tweak tools.

It is a risk, bringing software with no certification to the general public, so that costs money.

I'm not sure about open sourcing that stuff either. Complicates customer support and liability, and these things aren't cheap to begin with, or easy to distribute.

But if you are really serious hitting the enthusiast to pro market, customisation seems quite necessary. Programmable controller, internal memory, software, firmwate reset, ect...

The lack of tweaking, and relying on the manufacturer to 'know what's right' isn't doing Zowie any favors.

The plug-and-play, driverless nature of Zowie/FM is great, but it doesn't mean it frees you from software support either. Where are the firmware updates? The tweak tools? Oh now they fixed the click latency and LOD issues, so I have to buy ANOTHER mouse.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> They most likely have that already as development and tweak tools.
> 
> It is a risk, bringing software with no certification to the general public, so that costs money.
> 
> I'm not sure about open sourcing that stuff either. Complicates customer support and liability, and these things aren't cheap to begin with, or easy to distribute.
> 
> But if you are really serious hitting the enthusiast to pro market, customisation seems quite necessary. Programmable controller, internal memory, software, firmwate reset, ect...
> 
> The lack of tweaking, and relying on the manufacturer to 'know what's right' isn't doing Zowie any favors.
> 
> The plug-and-play, driverless nature of Zowie/FM is great, but it doesn't mean it frees you from software support either. Where are the firmware updates? The tweak tools? Oh now they fixed the click latency and LOD issues, so I have to buy ANOTHER mouse.


Hello,

These are good points. And if you remember we did provide these "tweak tools". We distributed an SROM flasher to customers for the first batch that wanted to fix the 3310 bug (before we fixed it in production), and we have similar flashers ready for a vast variety of uses . If things ever need flashing we will immediately provide tools to do so like we already did.

But when every single cs pro tells us they don't want software and that they don't care about customization it becomes very hard to justify spending any time packaging/marketing those tools. Especially when it goes against brand/product vision and all that. Unless cs athletes all of a sudden start telling us they want to customize firmware registers I don't see why we would take away from the out of the box plug and play nature. There is a psychological comfort to current pros in having this.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## wareya

So why don't you have an MCU flasher to remove the smoothing that you guys promised wasn't there?


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> These are good points. And if you remember we did provide these "tweak tools". We distributed an SROM flasher to customers for the first batch that wanted to fix the 3310 bug (before we fixed it in production), and we have similar flashers ready for a vast variety of uses . If things ever need flashing we will immediately provide tools to do so like we already did.
> 
> But when every single cs pro tells us they don't want software and that they don't care about customization it becomes very hard to justify spending any time packaging/marketing those tools. Especially when it goes against brand/product vision and all that. Unless cs athletes all of a sudden start telling us they want to customize firmware registers I don't see why we would take away from the out of the box plug and play nature.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Well, I'm sorry to tell you, but most CS pros don't know a lot about mice or peripherals in generals. They just use the mouse that they like the shape, that have a good performance (aka doesnt have accel, extremely low pcs or doesnt aim to the sky randomly) and that's it.
At least it's better to listen them then the 1337gamerzZZz out there...
But I think that a firmware updater would be a nice thing. And also a firmware to remove smoothing and to give you the option to disable the lights (press button x + y while plugging the mouse and your LED will be disabled, for example)

Anyways, when will we be able to purchase it from other sources or even here in South America?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@wareya
We do , and we have sent it out to certain individuals we work with (along with units with different controllers alltogether) and they have not been keen to change away from the current sensor feel they like. And if the time comes for a variant to not have the low pass filter then that is when it will be seen. But for right now the sensor feel is exactly what our pros like, and we don't want any discrepancies out there for customers.


----------



## wareya

So what you're saying is, you're keeping something private that makes the product act the way you advertised it, because people that are already used to the current latency of the mouse don't like it? Is there even any proof that the unsmoothed firmware didn't have stuttering problems, polling rate problems, sync problems, latency problems, etc? How extensive are the tests that you ran on the test firmware and are you able to release numbers showing that the smoothing is literally the only difference? Yes, button latency numbers as well, please. No cameras. Read directly off the HID drivers.

It's not just a "low pass filter". It literally, actively, directly adds latency and processes the signal to be more processed and less pure and responsive.

Will you stop marketing unprocessed raw response or will you release a public MCU flasher?


----------



## qsxcv

yea so why do you guys have the 3200/1600dpi steps? no cs pro uses them


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Well, I'm sorry to tell you, but most CS pros don't know a lot about mice or peripherals in generals. They just use the mouse that they like the shape, that have a good performance (aka doesnt have accel, extremely low pcs or doesnt aim to the sky randomly) and that's it.
> At least it's better to listen them then the 1337gamerzZZz out there...
> But I think that a firmware updater would be a nice thing. And also a firmware to remove smoothing and to give you the option to disable the lights (press button x + y while plugging the mouse and your LED will be disabled, for example)
> 
> Anyways, when will we be able to purchase it from other sources or even here in South America?


Of course they aren't technical experts. Many just go based off sensor feel, and other indicators. Thats why there is a fine line we have to tread here. Because the end goal is ultimately to have the players play their best. And sometimes a player is only going to play their best with what they feel is most comfortable.

If we find conclusive facts and evidence to clearly say one thing is better than another without any trade off , then that is when we will approach a player and say "hey listen , look at this data, trust us, and switch to this ".

But with mice we are approaching a point where these concrete, definitive , objective things that are "better" are hard to come by. So we have to often take their subjective opinions to heart.

For example: we are close to sending out some beta samples of a new sensor we want to test. It's a more "powerful" chipset. It is by definition technically better. But even DSP algorithms in a higher horsepower sensor aren't necessarily better in terms of feel. So we have to tread carefully and see how players react .

Kind Regards ,
Jude

Edit: not sure about South America yet


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> How extensive are the tests


probably nonexistent


----------



## aerowalk30

$$$lol$$$


----------



## Soo8

Why not provide the software for the people who want to tinker with the settings? It doesn't have to be flashy and marketed, it just needs to do the job for people who are willing to change and experiment with the settings. Right now it looks like you are hidding something from the people who are willing to do the research for their mice. I don't give a crap (and probably a bunch of people on here) about what a pro player thinks about the "feel" if I can't have it how I like it.


----------



## HITTI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> Why not provide the software for the people who want to tinker with the settings?


https://www.highrez.co.uk/downloads/xmousebuttoncontrol.htm


----------



## Arc0s

Funny thing is finalmouse is mostly purchased by regular people and not by "pros" and you still rather listen to the "pros" than the comunity. Are there even any pro players using finalmouse?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> Why not provide the software for the people who want to tinker with the settings?


let me guess a bit... because technical incompetence? because none of the 4 people in the company have a clue about technical things? and it would cost more for them to ask the odm to provide a package that includes software.

and let me predict, based on what happened last time we asked for mcu smoothing to be turned off: if we request it enough in the next few post, they'll probably post something like "okay we will work on making a minimal tool to configure stuff". then we go "yay awesome they listen to us". 4 months later, there's no update and whenever someone brings up the subject again, they repeat the same bs "we asked our pros and they said they arent interested in customizing cuz esports".


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> let me guess a bit... because technical incompetence? because none of the 4 people in the company have a clue about technical things? and it would cost more for them to ask the odm to provide a package that includes software.
> 
> and let me predict, based on what happened last time we asked for mcu smoothing to be turned off: if we request it enough in the next few post, they'll probably post something like "okay we will work on making a minimal tool to configure stuff". then we go "yay awesome they listen to us". 4 months later, there's no update and whenever someone brings up the subject again, they repeat the same bs "we asked our pros and they said they arent interested in customizing cuz esports".


I tend to concur with this view. It's less effort for them so insta profit. I mean the fact that there is motospeed written underneath already reveals how they operate. No proper company would do that, no matter how little finance or opportunities they had.

However I have to say I appreciate that they are one of the only companies who get that the mouse has to be light. Either by shell or pcb design, many top companies don't really get it. I mean look at Roccat or Corsair. Or in parts Logitech. Makes me furious to even think about g502 or g303/g402.

Same happens with companies like DICE, or Splash Damage. I mean look at the latest battlefield games, or Starwars battlefront. Even if they had game-breaking bugs in BF3/BC2, they were never fixed. Without excuse or reason.
Also Dirty Bomb, screams out half-arsedness, even though the game has so much potential.


----------



## wareya

motospeed hasn't been written under the mouse since the first manufacturing line

I know the company is broken but please don't give them a reason to claim that people are spreading fud


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> motospeed hasn't been written under the mouse since the first manufacturing line
> 
> I know the company is broken but please don't give them a reason to claim that people are spreading fud


Was just an example. I don't mind Finalmouse at all. Let them do what they want. But I don't see their products as innovative. The thing I enjoy is that they prioritize weight.








You have to criticize where criticism is due. Otherwise #esburtz and 150 bucks pricetag happens.

Or imagine if for example Intel started to charge double for all the i5/i7. Then we would care. You have to give criticism.


----------



## qsxcv

well that's gone but the firmware still says e-signal in the usb descriptor.


----------



## wareya

I wouldn't criticize details that they've managed to stop... That's just spite.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I wouldn't criticize details that they've managed to stop... That's just spite.


I was bringing an example to prove a point. To agree with qxscv that it could be due to staff lacking the skills and covering it up, or not caring.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Of course they aren't technical experts. Many just go based off sensor feel, and other indicators. Thats why there is a fine line we have to tread here. Because the end goal is ultimately to have the players play their best. And sometimes a player is only going to play their best with what they feel is most comfortable.
> 
> If we find conclusive facts and evidence to clearly say one thing is better than another without any trade off , then that is when we will approach a player and say "hey listen , look at this data, trust us, and switch to this ".
> 
> But with mice we are approaching a point where these concrete, definitive , objective things that are "better" are hard to come by. So we have to often take their subjective opinions to heart.
> 
> For example: we are close to sending out some beta samples of a new sensor we want to test. It's a more "powerful" chipset. It is by definition technically better. But even DSP algorithms in a higher horsepower sensor aren't necessarily better in terms of feel. So we have to tread carefully and see how players react .
> 
> Kind Regards ,
> Jude
> 
> Edit: not sure about South America yet


I see your point, but I still think that a firmware updater would be nice. (same thing for Zowie)
That way you guys can fix some bugs or implement new features on an update, just like turning off the LEDs (eg pressing button x + y while plugging the mouse will disable it), an option to make it run at 1000Hz (I know you guys love 500Hz, but an _option_ for us to change it would be really nice, even if your tests says otherwise), and even a special firmware to disable the smoothing for those who want it.
A firmware to disable smoothing is something that I've never seen before, it would be something nice and pretty cool, and it probably won't hurt your economy as well since it's a 67$ mouse and you guys didn't even design the shell.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> probably nonexistent





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



ayyyyyy


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



lmao






Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arc0s*
> 
> Are there even any pro players using finalmouse?


Nope, but a few players from NA are using it. Steel, DaZeD, mOE I think...
The only "pro" using the Finalmouse is ScreaM, I guess.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Well, that's what I'd like to see anyway. Similar to allowing communities to mod games, that only extend the life and enjoyment of the original product.

Since Rajiv comes from CoolerMaster, which from my experience owning an Alcor and Xornet have been good at providing custom firmware, when asked by the community (hit or miss, sure, but they tried with what they had at least), I hope the opportunity will be considered.

For starters, I'd love to be able to turn off the LED at the back of my FM2015. It stays on, and with my current motherboard, even when the computer is turned off. Not good!









I'm looking forward to the ambi personally. I don't really have an issue with sensor implementation, smoothing ect... I'm not pro enough for that kind of stuff, But I wouldn't mind trying out some custom sensor firmwares, and I think it will benefit everyone in the long run.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> But when every single cs pro tells us they don't want software and that they don't care about customization it becomes very hard to justify spending any time packaging/marketing those tools. Especially when it goes against brand/product vision and all that. Unless cs athletes all of a sudden start telling us they want to customize firmware registers I don't see why we would take away from the out of the box plug and play nature. There is a psychological comfort to current pros in having this.


This makes no sense in multiple ways. You do not have to remove the plug and play nature of the mouse in order to have software. Nobody is saying to go all Synapse here. You can literally ship the mouse with the basic driverless customization options it has, then offer some software for those who want to customize. There is LITERALLY NO CON to doing this other than affecting your silly l33t pr0 marketing. And who cares what pros say, barely any of them even use your mouse and the people who are actually supporting your company are the consumers buying the mice. They should be your damn focus. "We're leaving in smoothing because some pros say they are used to it and don't wanna adapt" is utterly ridiculous and also contradicts your company's supposed philosophy of "pure performance" BTW.

Don't bother posting if it's gonna be generic marketing garbage like that jude, you're actively making me not want to support your company even if you guys were to release a G9-like mouse. Just be forthcoming and admit you're doing things for financial reasons (or because your staff outright can't), or do what smart companies do and stay mum about the whole thing.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Pros don't like to change things, so they aren't really a good barometer for new products. And they don't buy their gear, they get paid.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> This makes no sense in multiple ways. You do not have to remove the plug and play nature of the mouse in order to have software. Nobody is saying to go all Synapse here. You can literally ship the mouse with the basic driverless customization options it has, then offer some software for those who want to customize. There is LITERALLY NO CON to doing this other than affecting your silly l33t pr0 marketing. And who cares what pros say, barely any of them even use your mouse and the people who are actually supporting your company are the consumers buying the mice. They should be your damn focus. "We're leaving in smoothing because some pros say they are used to it and don't wanna adapt" is utterly ridiculous and also contradicts your company's supposed philosophy of "pure performance" BTW.
> 
> Don't bother posting if it's gonna be generic marketing garbage like that jude, you're actively making me not want to support your company even if you guys were to release a G9-like mouse. Just be forthcoming and admit you're doing things for financial reasons (or because your staff outright can't), or do what smart companies do and stay mum about the whole thing.


Well, "pros" aka douchebags from NA that got banned for throwing games for skins and do nothing but play 10mans all day.
Oh, and ScreaM.

And yea, I totally agree with you. It's actually insane to think that the Finalmouse is being sold by $67. It's not even their own designed shell, they basically got a crappy motospeed v2 and threw a 3310 in there







Just like what Xtrfy did.

I think it's time to see someone like NwAvGuy in the mice world. Maybe a nice idea would be an open source project with a 3d printed shape, DIY-ish style. We'd be able to use any firmware we want, customize everything from click latency to smoothing, use the shape that we want, etc. It's just a matter of time I think.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: FinalMouseJude



Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude* 

Hello,

These are good points. And if you remember we did provide these "tweak tools". We distributed an SROM flasher to customers for the first batch that wanted to fix the 3310 bug (before we fixed it in production), and we have similar flashers ready for a vast variety of uses . If things ever need flashing we will immediately provide tools to do so like we already did.

But when every single cs pro tells us they don't want software and that they don't care about customization it becomes very hard to justify spending any time packaging/marketing those tools. Especially when it goes against brand/product vision and all that. Unless cs athletes all of a sudden start telling us they want to customize firmware registers I don't see why we would take away from the out of the box plug and play nature. There is a psychological comfort to current pros in having this.

Kind Regards,
Jude



Just do what Zowie does with their mouse button combinations to change polling rate and Lift Off Distance. Then add optional software for those who want 50 CPI steps and then adjust the LOD in a less crude manner. People who don't want software don't have to install it. You can still market it as a mouse that doesn't require software.

Everyone is happy then. I don't care about the software handling macros which I can already do with AHK. I just need it to store different CPI settings, store the LOD and be able to turn off the LED in the mouse.



Spoiler: Quote: popups



Originally Posted by *popups* 

Mionix did a great thing with their configuration tool.

The 3310 is essentially a 9500/9800.



You misunderstand what I meant. I meant that at the time every new mouse had the A9500/A9800 and very few mice used the A3090. Mice with PMW-3310 or S3988 are much more common in mice today than the A3090 ever was back then. The next best thing to happen to the gaming mouse market is for the PMW-3366 to become public.


----------



## DadeBound

Those CS pro's will use whatever they're sponsored by. Besides some of the former pro's and some with no sponsors. It's pretty silly to focus on people who will end up tossing your mouse aside once they find a New sponsor. Making a mouse with great control and comfort shouldn't have to be tied with gaming at all.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DadeBound*
> 
> Those CS pro's will use whatever they're sponsored by. Besides some of the former pro's and some with no sponsors. It's pretty silly to focus on people who will end up tossing your mouse aside once they find a New sponsor. Making a mouse with great control and comfort shouldn't have to be tied with gaming at all.


Only Logitech does that (C9 and TSM, for example), and maybe Steelseries as well (Fnatic players were forced to use SS mice)
The rest doesn't really care about forcing players using their mice. Maybe they want them using the headsets (All LG players used to use the Razer Kraken, but now they're using the Hyperx Cloud) or keyboards, but that's about it.
LG is sponsored by Zowie, but all their players are using the Razer Blackwidow. Fer uses a Rival, coldzera was using a Sensei on DHCluj, FalleN uses a DA, fnx is the only one using a Zowie mouse I think (EC2-A).
Same for Team Liquid being sponsored by Razer, but adreN uses a Rival and Hiko was using the G100s at their last LAN


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Only Logitech does that (C9 and TSM, for example), and maybe Steelseries as well (Fnatic players were forced to use SS mice)
> The rest doesn't really care about forcing players using their mice. Maybe they want them using the headsets (All LG players used to use the Razer Kraken, but now they're using the Hyperx Cloud) or keyboards, but that's about it.
> LG is sponsored by Zowie, but all their players are using the Razer Blackwidow. Fer uses a Rival, coldzera was using a Sensei on DHCluj, FalleN uses a DA, fnx is the only one using a Zowie mouse I think (EC2-A).
> Same for Team Liquid being sponsored by Razer, but adreN uses a Rival and Hiko was using the G100s at their last LAN


I think Hiko has switched to a Abyssus because of a Razer contract.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I think Hiko has switched to a Abyssus because of a Razer contract.


I think thats because Hiko as a streamer/brand is sponsored by Razer, not because of Liquid


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Nope, but a few players from NA are using it. Steel, DaZeD, mOE I think...
> 
> The only "pro" using the Finalmouse is ScreaM, I guess.


Moe isn't good enough or cares to be a pro.

It appears Dazed switches between the DeathAdder and FinalMouse.

Steel uses the FinalMouse.

It appears Pimp uses the FinalMouse at home.

Scream is the only (active) pro player I have seen using a FinalMouse at LAN.


----------



## Kayed

Cant forget roca







I'd say he is #2 in terms of aim


----------



## bruzanHD

Been planning on buying one with the under the assumption that tweak tools would be released, however it appears they never will. So I was wondering, this, the FK1, or the ZA11/2/3. Anyone have any opinions.
*edit: I realized there is a better thread for this question, please excuse my ignorance.


----------



## zeflow

Is there an ETA on the symmetrical version yet? Sorry if this has been asked already.


----------



## banjogood

for the price we've paid for this mouse, its pretty insulting reading all of this stuff. you refuse to release anything because of marketing no other reason.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arsn*
> 
> for the price we've paid for this mouse, its pretty insulting reading all of this stuff. you refuse to release anything because of marketing no other reason.


I thought they were charging over $60 initially because they were going to eventually use that money to make new molds, change the internals, improve the coding and offer software. Apparently, they do not want to do that.

Why would I want to buy the symmetrical FinalMouse at this point? I might as well buy the Func Flick G1 because the Ducky Secret isn't something I consider worth the money. I could settle with a used Zowie ZA11 with one of my AM PCBs.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Let's cut them some slack guys. They know where they messed up by now.

I don't like software either but I hate Ducky Secret type implementations even more. Something like Mionix's software would be ideal.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I thought they were charging over $60 initially because they were going to eventually use that money to make new molds, change the internals, improve the coding and offer software. Apparently, they do not want to do that.
> 
> Why would I want to buy the symmetrical FinalMouse at this point? I might as well buy


basically this...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> They know where they messed up by now.


lol no they don't. all they've really said is "our pros are happy with the current configuration therefore there must be nothing wrong with it".

not really sure why they even bother posting here anymore. originally, it appeared like they were interested in collaborating with this community and taking feedback from the experienced members here to improve their product. but it's pretty clear by now that their plan all along was to target the market of zowie fanboys and that they just used this forum and esr as stepping stones to promote their stuff. it's beyond obvious that the op's of this thread and the first esr thread were shill posts. and it's not the first time they've done this sort of thing lol


----------



## popups

Maybe we can get Func to make something better. Look how much money they made with their fund raising. Apparently, there is enough people that don't want Logitech, Razer and SteelSeries products. Those people have to hold Fnatic to their marketing statements.
Quote:


> $201,954 USD
> 
> 151% of $133,700


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

lol fnatic is using the same odm/vendor as Func used. MS2 was atrocious.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> lol fnatic is using the same odm/vendor as Func used. MS2 was atrocious.


Which is why we ask for something better and hold them to their marketing.

We asked FinalMouse to do that. They refuse.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello,

There seems to be the notion that because we dont want to publicly release or package software that this means we arent going to be listening and making the changes this community desires. As already stated a couple weeks ago there are already many variants in the pipeline that will accomplish nearly every desire that is being expressed:

- There is a good chance we see a variant with a different sensor and MCU completely. Right now its looking like STmicro and our own custom firmware will be supporting the new chipset, and there is no filter currently in any development samples.

- Variant at 1000hz and without filter (once again very likely given how many variants are coming this year)

-lighter rubber cable

- no light

- And there are already variants in production with different components, wires, feet, mousewheel encoders, etc.....

I can safely say everyone is going to get what they want in the very near future, since our design and development cycle is very fast. It will be even faster than the Ambi was given some new acquisitions we made.

The only thing that isn't on the roadmap is the ability for users to go in and adjust their own dpi via software in increments of 50 or whatever else they choose. In fact we have a variant that does not even have a DPI switch at all. At the moment the design intent does not see this micromanagement of dpi a priority.

This does not mean there are no changes coming. There are tons of changes and new variants/signature models arriving that will be addressing everyone's needs. In addition to new shapes and the usual constant improvements.

The fact that software and customization tools is not a priority does not mean all the other sensor implementation related requests are not being developed and introduced. It simply means there is a design intent to make every finalmouse come straight out of the box fully optimized for that variant.

Once you see how these variants/signature models will work everything will explain itself









Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## banjogood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I thought they were charging over $60 initially because they were going to eventually use that money to make new molds, change the internals, improve the coding and offer software. Apparently, they do not want to do that.


thats what i was lead to believe by all this fake talk


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> There seems to be the notion that because we dont want to publicly release or package software that this means we arent going to be listening and making the changes this community desires. As already stated a couple weeks ago there are already many variants in the pipeline that will accomplish nearly every desire that is being expressed:
> 
> - There is a good chance we see a variant with a different sensor and MCU completely. Right now its looking like STmicro and our own custom firmware will be supporting the new chipset, and there is no filter currently in any development samples.
> 
> - Variant at 1000hz and without filter (once again very likely given how many variants are coming this year)
> 
> -lighter rubber cable
> 
> - no light
> 
> - And there are already variants in production with different components, wires, feet, mousewheel encoders, etc.....
> 
> I can safely say everyone is going to get what they want in the very near future, since our design and development cycle is very fast. It will be even faster than the Ambi was given some new acquisitions we made.
> 
> The only thing that isn't on the roadmap is the ability for users to go in and adjust their own dpi via software in increments of 50 or whatever else they choose. In fact we have a variant that does not even have a DPI switch at all. At the moment the design intent does not see this micromanagement of dpi a priority.
> 
> This does not mean there are no changes coming. There are tons of changes and new variants/signature models arriving that will be addressing everyone's needs. In addition to new shapes and the usual constant improvements.
> 
> The fact that software and customization tools is not a priority does not mean all the other sensor implementation related requests are not being developed and introduced. It simply means there is a design intent to make every finalmouse come straight out of the box fully optimized for that variant.
> 
> Once you see how these variants/signature models will work everything will explain itself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


It is great you are so active, although this reaction feels very forced. Probably best to wait for the flame war to subside before interjecting.

Those asking for software; it is very clear that is the one thing they won't do because it ruins their vision. Their persistence is probably good, Razer initially only wanted performance, so they listen to the community. Who's to say if FM won't do the same thing if they give in. I think their initial business idea was flawed and they are starting to realize that. They have no choice but to make more options, in terms of hardware. Pro model, basic model, flashy 1337 mlg rainbow penis model etc. Expect FM to change their goals because i doubt they will just give in to what we ask. Although it is starting to seem that way.


----------



## woll3

"Want to test 1000hz? Buy another mouse.",

"Disabling the light? Buy another Mouse."

There is a reason some people are already joking about Jude´s name.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> @wareya
> We do , and we have sent it out to certain individuals we work with (along with units with different controllers alltogether)


it appears more likely to me that you're lying and that you guys don't actually have another firmware with the smoothing off.

because if you do, and if you're planning
Quote:


> - Variant at 1000hz and without filter (once again very likely given how many variants are coming this year)


in the future, well then why not have some of us here try it now to get some feedback?

provemewrong


----------



## Maximillion

So wait, there are going to be various versions (who knows, sounds like a good half dozen at this point...) of the FM just to cater to different users needs? First off, epic lulz. Secondly, doesn't that kinda go against the whole "Finalmouse" mantra to begin with? You know, the whole "last mouse you'll ever need" thing? Cause it looks like certain users will have to buy more than one since ALL versions seem they will either lack "x" or "y" feature. If it's the "Finalmouse" why do we need variations? Some "signature" editions with more "premier" features? This sounds like the typical "tier" system that's spread across the current peripheral market.

The mere fact that there are already plans to release versions with features that are arguably _objectively_ superior than the vanilla version is hilarious. Why not just make the best mouse possible with _all_ the top of the line physical properties (switches, sensor, feet, cable, etc) and provide _all_ the optional software tweaks? That's the true "Finalmouse". This reminds me of games where certain gear is locked behind micro-transaction paywalls. "Oh you want "x"? Get this pack. Oh wait, you want "y"? Get this one then."

And I'm not even talking about shapes, you can make one of them the shape of a banana for all I care. But the BananaMouse should have everything that's tweakable available to it out of the box, as well as all the best available components. The ambi FM could come out tomorrow and people would be weary to buy it because a better "variant" could be released down the line (regardless of price). It's quite difficult to not see the irony in that. I understand that technology is ever-changing/improving but to purposely cut corners with the stated company philosophy seems like an oversight to put it gently.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@qsxcv

We are moving as fast as possible to have samples of multiple variants ready not just for the community/pros to beta test but to also put into production. Things happen but they take a little time. The ambi development cycle was actually incredibly short it just doesnt appear that way in the context of forum posts day to day.

The truth is we don't even know what the final choices are on the first variant being released this holiday.

I wish I could reveal the entire signature variants roadmap and how this whole thing will work along with each one's specs. But no one knows. Once I know I or Rajiv will let everyone know. And once samples of different implementations are ready users here such as yourself will be the first to get their hands on them. We have no intention of releasing a variant and having something wrong with the tracking. Community beta testing is something we will heavily rely on for our own benefit.


----------



## qsxcv

k i take your lack of response as confirmation of
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> you guys don't actually have another firmware with the smoothing off.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@maximillion

I think we realized there was no such thing as the "Finalmouse" back when we realized how much of a demand there was for a better ambi shape. 12 Months ago we didn't think various shapes were all that important. 12 months later and the Ambi has been one of the biggest investments for us. I think its safe to say our thought process has changed.

And this whole variant/signature thing is going to be completely new and not exactly done before. Its a challenge on our end, and production wise. Maybe it works out maybe it doesn't and we pivot.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@qsxcv

I've said before we have already been playing and testing with it for a while. You will see a firmware without it on a different mcu with the beta samples of the new sensor before the variants even are available. Hopefully we have beta samples sent out by next week. We are waiting on ATC reps to get more chips to us.


----------



## qsxcv

so why don't you release a firmware flasher for some of us on here who want to try it now on the current fm?


----------



## Buttnose

Quote:


> There seems to be the notion that because we dont want to publicly release or package software that this means we arent going to be listening and making the changes this community desires. As already stated a couple weeks ago there are already many variants in the pipeline that will accomplish nearly every desire that is being expressed:


The main thing the community has been asking Finalmouse for is the 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch to be released for the FM2015. If that isn't being delivered upon, but instead the customers who supported your first product are being pushed into spending another $67/£53 for these "pro-approved variants" that afaik nobody asked for, Finalmouse is neither listening or making the changes the community desires.

any date for replacement mousefeet availability for the FM2015?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@qsxcv

The same reason we dont want any software, or utilities. Because when we gave out the SROM flasher, interested consumers to this very day email us asking for the flasher to fix their summer edition because word spread there was a better "fix". "I heard my finalmouse sensor is bad and i need an update" etc... etc....

This is the reasoning behind the intent of having no software or utilities. Because a shipped finalmouse needs to be perfect out of the box.

Yes i understand this is a brand/marketing related concept. But this is the reasoning.


----------



## qsxcv

lol so that's the conclusion after leaving us hanging for 7months or something? k


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I think we realized there was no such thing as the "Finalmouse" back when we realized how much of a demand there was for a better ambi shape. 12 Months ago we didn't think various shapes were all that important. 12 months later and the Ambi has been one of the biggest investments for us. I think its safe to say our thought process has changed.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> And I'm not even talking about shapes


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> And this whole variant/signature thing is going to be completely new and not exactly done before. Its a challenge on our end, and production wise. Maybe it works out maybe it doesn't and we pivot.


Once again, from what I can grasp, the signature series will have "features" that the "vanilla" version will not. The only reason for a consumer to pursue one of these variants is because it'd be deemed in _some way_ superior to the standard edition. It's not so much _what_ the signature series will feature that bothers me, it's the fact that buyers of future FM products could potentially be "blocked" from features (hardware and/or software related) if they buy a certain version of the product.

You can make 16.8 million different shapes, but each of them should be the true "Finalmouse" for the end user. If any mouse has something that another doesn't (feature/spec-wise) it's somewhat of a slap in the face imo. But I guess it's best that we all wait and see exactly how the variation concept pans out as a whole.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Its not a conclusion as much as it is an inevitability. You guys here are the most knowledgeable group, at the very top of the pyramid. That means there is a trickle down effect and word gets out.

"I heard there is a flasher for 1000hz mcu without filter how can i get one etc.. etc..." This is what will happen immediately.

We realize these are the two most requested things from the community. Hence why we are actively pushing to have this first variant feature them together. Its not like we would do something like split these two things up and have you guys buy 3 mice 7 months from now.

This is all happening soon in the context of months.


----------



## qsxcv

yea and what about people asking "i heard there are beta samples you guys are sending how can i get one???"


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Those two things imply completely different thoughts to a consumer IMO. A beta sample is a new tangible product, a flasher fixes a problem. There is a difference psychologically to someone who owns a product. If you are a buying a new electric car lets say a tesla. You are going to be damn sure your tesla is as up to date and optimized as possible. So without hesitation if you hear even a rumor of some flasher being even subjectively better you are going to be on it. Doesnt mean you are going to go out and be depressed you dont have Teslas new beta car in your garage.


----------



## qsxcv

lol yea explains why you deleted/edited your post in september when you first mentioned the beta testing of the new sensor.

we can go on and on but whatever. it's ridiculous how we wait 7 months and all you can come up with is "we havent released a flasher to you guys because we dont want to deal with people asking questions".


----------



## FinalmouseJude

? Things of mine are deleted all the time by OCN for being too promotional.

Be patient and you will have beta samples as promised, we are going to value the input you give on them.


----------



## Buttnose

Why have things changed from the FM2015 having the 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch to only the variants having them?

I might be misunderstanding but you seem to be saying that you don't like getting emails constantly inquiring about a firmware flasher for the FM2015; in which case simply having a stock email reply directing users to a "downloads" section with the firmware flasher sounds to me as though it would eliminate both of your problems. Of course this way users who bought the FM2015 wouldn't have a great deal of reason to buy the latest variants, besides trying out different shapes/new sensors.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@buttnose

It has nothing to do with customer support or emails. Its perception. THis conversation can go on and on and would be heavily marketing/brand strategy related. I have no intention of bringing any of that into play here there is no value to it.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Because when we gave out the SROM flasher, interested consumers to this very day email us asking for the flasher to fix their summer edition


lol way to contradict yourself


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@qsxcv

I dont understand the contradiction. Our customer support being bogged down has nothing to do with it.


----------



## qsxcv

i asked why you dont release a flasher to a few members here.

you say you dont want to deal with the emails other members will send asking about it.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

When did I say that? I was explaining how customers have a perception they have a flawed mouse and they end up voicing that to us, when in reality that had a perfectly optimal summer edition.

Anyways I know I only did so much to clear the air on how these variants will work. More will become clear here this month especially once we confirm what this first variant will offer.

Will as always keep a close eye to see what you guys are requesting and asking for.

And for the select few who requested beta samples of the new sensor I will keep you informed via PM.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> but as you know the 3310 and it's related lens kit is one of the more expensive chipsets.


Yeah, I doubt that post that contained that hilarious blurb was deleted for promotional reasons.


----------



## Buttnose

So we're to understand that customers who purchased the FM2015 are losing out on features that could be implemented in order for marketing/branding to be easier/stronger for the future variant editions?

I can understand the reluctance to release a firmware flasher for a product touted as the "Finalmouse", which was marketed as not needing any software; its somewhat embarrassing and it hurts the perception customers have of that brand, I think everyone understands that. Nonetheless everyone here came to believe from your posts that the 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch would be made available for the FM2015, and I don't think it would be a stretch to say that plenty of people (myself included) bought the FM2015 believing that said switch would be forthcoming.

I suppose whatever anyone here says on this topic doesn't really matter anymore, as presumably the decision has been made now. But keep in mind Finalmouse not keeping their word regarding firmware flasher will also change perception of your brand; every time the topic has been brought up in this thread its slowly been eroding the goodwill that was gained by taking on community feedback early on!


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> so why don't you release a firmware flasher for some of us on here who want to try it now on the current fm?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> @qsxcv
> 
> The same reason we dont want any software, or utilities. Because when we gave out the SROM flasher, interested consumers to this very day email us asking for the flasher to fix their summer edition because word spread there was a better "fix". "I heard my finalmouse sensor is bad and i need an update" etc... etc....


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> Why have things changed from the FM2015 having the 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch to only the variants having them?
> 
> I might be misunderstanding but you seem to be saying that you don't like getting emails constantly inquiring about a firmware flasher for the FM2015; in which case simply having a stock email reply directing users to a "downloads" section with the firmware flasher sounds to me as though it would eliminate both of your problems. Of course this way users who bought the FM2015 wouldn't have a great deal of reason to buy the latest variants, besides trying out different shapes/new sensors.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> @buttnose
> 
> It has nothing to do with customer support or emails. Its perception. THis conversation can go on and on and would be heavily marketing/brand strategy related. I have no intention of bringing any of that into play here there is no value to it.


----------



## kicksome

I have over 20 gaming mice and I would go as far too day I have a sound knowledge ofwhat makes them tick. That leads me to my question; what do I need to do and how do I qualify for a beta sample?


----------



## Soo8

Grab your coworkers together and discuss about this topic. The way we see now you don't have a clear answer and end up giving us a false hope. I understand the optimized fw thing, but buying another mouse just for different fw is unacceptable.


----------



## ncck

I'm glad all this discussion is going on and all but I'm still wondering one easy question

Will the ambi version featuring 4 mouse feet be releasing this alongside the 'original' ambi or will it release at a later date? To me the 4 mouse feet and a braided cable are my buying points









edit: Also I didn't like the side coating on the original FM.. don't remember what it was but it was very slippery (I have dry hands). Hope you guys make a good product I am excited for it.


----------



## a_ak57

Jude, quit while you're behind. Every post is more embarrassing than the last. I was indifferent to your company before but I'm actively turned off now. I think it's best if you just post when you're giving us updates on the 700 mice you're apparently releasing.

I feel like your company has to be comprised of just you and this former CM person because otherwise someone would have told you to stop the PR that is doing nothing but making the company look silly and pushing people away with how out of touch you are. There's a reason we don't have razer reps posting damage control about how great synapse is. Frankly, you come across like a used car salesman.


----------



## Klopfer

I think I will wait with buying the Ambi Final ...
coz maybe another signature which will sold in ~2-4 weeks later will fit my wishes more ...
I heared some Rumor about Q1/early Q2 2k16 a new mice with something relly good internals and sensor ( maybe the Best atm ) etc , low weight small Ambi ... I hope they use a better shape this Time








...
for the Finalmouse Ambi , Im too undecided if any later Released Signature Variante would be better for me ... the shape looks good on the pics I saw , much better then original FM ( I was hating the Razer Imperator ) ...


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> I feel like your company has to be comprised of just you and this former CM person


probably. maybe one more


----------



## wareya

i'm betting on 5 now: contract lawyer, corporate communicator / tech, owner, public relations and pro relations * 2


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: woll3



Originally Posted by *woll3* 

"Want to test 1000hz? Buy another mouse.",

"Disabling the light? Buy another Mouse."

There is a reason some people are already joking about Jude´s name.



Well to be fair people lap that rubbish up from Zowie. FinalMouse is just a copycat of them.



Spoiler: Quote: FinalMouseJude



Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude* 

Hello,

There seems to be the notion that because we dont want to publicly release or package software that this means we arent going to be listening and making the changes this community desires. As already stated a couple weeks ago there are already many variants in the pipeline that will accomplish nearly every desire that is being expressed:

- There is a good chance we see a variant with a different sensor and MCU completely. Right now its looking like STmicro and our own custom firmware will be supporting the new chipset, and there is no filter currently in any development samples.

- Variant at 1000hz and without filter (once again very likely given how many variants are coming this year)

-lighter rubber cable

- no light

- And there are already variants in production with different components, wires, feet, mousewheel encoders, etc.....

I can safely say everyone is going to get what they want in the very near future, since our design and development cycle is very fast. It will be even faster than the Ambi was given some new acquisitions we made.

The only thing that isn't on the roadmap is the ability for users to go in and adjust their own dpi via software in increments of 50 or whatever else they choose. In fact we have a variant that does not even have a DPI switch at all. At the moment the design intent does not see this micromanagement of dpi a priority.

This does not mean there are no changes coming. There are tons of changes and new variants/signature models arriving that will be addressing everyone's needs. In addition to new shapes and the usual constant improvements.

The fact that software and customization tools is not a priority does not mean all the other sensor implementation related requests are not being developed and introduced. It simply means there is a design intent to make every finalmouse come straight out of the box fully optimized for that variant.

Once you see how these variants/signature models will work everything will explain itself









Kind Regards,
Jude



Thanks for telling the people who play MOBA and SC2 that THEY AREN'T IMPORTANT.

We get your gimmick. You can beat around the bush but it's quite clear that you're just a Zowie copycat and to be honest I sincerely hope that you NEVER succeed. You're marketing is a cancer upon this industry because it has only produced misconceptions and harmed users. To give the illusion of your product being perfect you refuse firmware updates and force people to buy another mouse. You are clearly happy making inferior products simply for the sake of marketing and in that respect you are much the same as Razer and Zowie.

I hope that others here will put effort into ensuring that you're marketing isn't a success for your overpriced mice. The industry would be better without you.



Spoiler: Quote: Maximillion



Originally Posted by *Maximillion* 



> So wait, there are going to be various versions (who knows, sounds like a good half dozen at this point...) of the FM just to cater to different users needs? First off, epic lulz. Secondly, doesn't that kinda go against the whole "Finalmouse" mantra to begin with? You know, the whole "last mouse you'll ever need" thing? Cause it looks like certain users will have to buy more than one since ALL versions seem they will either lack "x" or "y" feature. If it's the "Finalmouse" why do we need variations? Some "signature" editions with more "premier" features? This sounds like the typical "tier" system that's spread across the current peripheral market.
> 
> The mere fact that there are already plans to release versions with features that are arguably objectively superior than the vanilla version is hilarious. Why not just make the best mouse possible with all the top of the line physical properties (switches, sensor, feet, cable, etc) and provide all the optional software tweaks? That's the true "Finalmouse". This reminds me of games where certain gear is locked behind micro-transaction paywalls. "Oh you want "x"? Get this pack. Oh wait, you want "y"? Get this one then."
> 
> And I'm not even talking about shapes, you can make one of them the shape of a banana for all I care. But the BananaMouse should have everything that's tweakable available to it out of the box, as well as all the best available components. The ambi FM could come out tomorrow and people would be weary to buy it because a better "variant" could be released down the line (regardless of price). It's quite difficult to not see the irony in that. I understand that technology is ever-changing/improving but to purposely cut corners with the stated company philosophy seems like an oversight to put it gently.






Why charge $70 when you can charge $100+ for a mouse. That is the impression I got.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Well to be fair people lap that rubbish up from Zowie. FinalMouse is just a copycat of them.


I believe we had that discussion before, but what is wrong with them targeting a niche audience that excludes you? There is no need for Zowie or FM to appeal to everybody. The big brands go that way and it does not satisfy the niche users apparently. Because things like "too many buttons, too many LEDs, too many whatever" are concerns that are rarely heard by big brands. And if they are then it is always a low end entry level mouse with cheap components.

To this day Zowie mice are the only office looking mice (no bling) with good sensors in them. That is their appeal. For everything else there are great mice by Logitech, Roccat, Asus, Razer, Steelseries,...


----------



## qsxcv

i think he meant how finalmouse copies how zowie gets away with not having firmware updates and intentionally restricting functionality (dpi steps)


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> To this day Zowie mice are the only office looking mice (no bling) with good sensors in them. That is their appeal.


EC Scrollwheel?

We also shouldnt forget that the bling can be disabled on most mice, unlike with the EC, or the 9K111mouse.


----------



## thatgold

@FinalmouseJude

Will the signature ambi's have any physical difference to the normal one? i.e. Size difference?

I like how Zowie has various sizes for people with bigger/smaller hands than the norm, I wonder if the same will happen to finalmouse?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Well to be fair people lap that rubbish up from Zowie. FinalMouse is just a copycat of them.
> 
> Thanks for telling the people who play MOBA and SC2 that THEY AREN'T IMPORTANT.


??

one of the first people they sponsored was a huge league player....are you kidding me?

psycho much?


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> When did I say that? *I was explaining how customers have a perception they have a flawed mouse* and they end up voicing that to us, when in reality that had a perfectly optimal summer edition.
> 
> Anyways I know I only did so much to clear the air on how these variants will work. More will become clear here this month especially once we confirm what this first variant will offer.
> 
> Will as always keep a close eye to see what you guys are requesting and asking for.
> 
> And for the select few who requested beta samples of the new sensor I will keep you informed via PM.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Well, it kind of is. At the very least on a technical level. And by not offering an optional firmware fix, you're not getting rid of that perception, just getting rid of the solution to it.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> one of the first people they sponsored was a huge league player....are you kidding me?


Advertising isnt caring.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: qsxcv



Originally Posted by *qsxcv* 

i think he meant how finalmouse copies how zowie gets away with not having firmware updates and intentionally restricting functionality (dpi steps)



Exactly. I have always asked for native sensor functionality and being able to change CPI in small increments is extremely important. It was by far the biggest improve over the A3090. I don't care about macros and other stuff that I can already do in autohotkey.

You can make a mouse where you can change polling rate via button combinations and have some form of software/tool to change CPI counts. It's a false compromise and so many people here are incapable of seeing that.



Spoiler: Quote: Ino



Originally Posted by *Ino.* 

I believe we had that discussion before, but what is wrong with them targeting a niche audience that excludes you? There is no need for Zowie or FM to appeal to everybody. The big brands go that way and it does not satisfy the niche users apparently. Because things like "too many buttons, too many LEDs, too many whatever" are concerns that are rarely heard by big brands. And if they are then it is always a low end entry level mouse with cheap components.

To this day Zowie mice are the only office looking mice (no bling) with good sensors in them. That is their appeal. For everything else there are great mice by Logitech, Roccat, Asus, Razer, Steelseries,...



I can turn off the LEDs though. My G303 has had the LEDs off the day I bought it so your criticism falls flat. You can't turn off the LEDs on the EC series or on Finalmouse. I find that extremely ironic don't you.



Spoiler: Quote: discoprince



Originally Posted by *discoprince* 

??

one of the first people they sponsored was a huge league player....are you kidding me?

psycho much?



50 CPI steps is important for any game that is on a 2D plane whether that is the desktop, MOBA or RTS. It is the *only* way to maintain 1:1 tracking. There is no arguing that it doesn't matter.

We all know that it doesn't matter for FPS because they can adjust sensitivity values for the amount of angular rotation per count which is why they only care about 400 CPI.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I believe we had that discussion before, but what is wrong with them targeting a niche audience that excludes you? There is no need for Zowie or FM to appeal to everybody. The big brands go that way and it does not satisfy the niche users apparently. Because things like "too many buttons, too many LEDs, too many whatever" are concerns that are rarely heard by big brands. And if they are then it is always a low end entry level mouse with cheap components.
> 
> To this day Zowie mice are the only office looking mice (no bling) with good sensors in them. That is their appeal. For everything else there are great mice by Logitech, Roccat, Asus, Razer, Steelseries,...


Well, there's a difference between simply releasing gaming mice that look like office mice and doing things like "btw we lowered the input lag on our mice but if you want that give us $60-70 more for a new mouse. Also the scroll wheels are still bad because who the hell wants to spend money fixing that. And of course you still can't modify these 4 DPI settings, that ain't pro." And as pointed out, you actually can't turn off the LED in the EC series. Zowie does some nice things in not making spaceship mice and I like the size variant thing they do, but they don't simply cater to a niche, they've created a false one based on marketing. The complaints about zowie have nothing to do with them releasing boring-looking mice with good sensors, that's what pretty much everyone on this site wants. The complaints are about the frugality/laziness they hide under marketing.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i think he meant how finalmouse copies how zowie gets away with not having firmware updates and intentionally restricting functionality (dpi steps)


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Exactly. I have always asked for native sensor functionality and being able to change CPI in small increments is extremely important. It was by far the biggest improve over the A3090. I don't care about macros and other stuff that I can already do in autohotkey.
> 
> I can turn off the LEDs though. My G303 has had the LEDs off the day I bought it so your *criticism* falls flat. You can't turn off the LEDs on the EC series or on Finalmouse. I find that extremely ironic don't you.
> 
> 50 CPI steps is important for any game that is on a 2D plane whether that is the desktop, MOBA or RTS. It is the *only* way to maintain 1:1 tracking. There is no arguing that it doesn't matter.
> 
> We all know that it doesn't matter for FPS because they can adjust sensitivity values for the amount of angular rotation per count which is why they only care about 400 CPI.


I'm not the one criticizing, I just point out that Zowie does not make mice for your needs because they don't market towards those. That doesn't make Zowie bad in general. And that is my point. Yes, having CPI in steps of 50 is very beneficial to anyone playing a 2D game, but if you want that just don't buy Zowie. Like I said, there are lot's of mice that offer exactly that from other companies. The G302 or G303 for example are better in every technical detail compared to Zowie and also cheaper. Just buy those? Same goes for mice by Roccat.

It's not like them lying about what their product does.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> EC Scrollwheel?
> 
> We also shouldnt forget that the bling can be disabled on most mice, unlike with the EC, or the 9K111mouse.


Yeah, forgot about EC.
But disabling LEDs on a G303 (for example) still leaves you with a flashier looking mouse. Or any other of the new Logitech lineup. They just scream "gaming" from their design. Not saying that is bad, but it's not what I want.


----------



## dlano

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> This is the reasoning behind the intent of having no software or utilities. Because a shipped finalmouse needs to be perfect out of the box.


This seems like incredibly naive thinking.

I'm also concerned about all these supposed variants coming out. I've no doubt they exist as prototypes, but in reality I bet only a single "marketable" variant will be released at most for the ergo and ambi.

I quite liked my FM, it was an early model, expensive and with a few issues. I loved the low weight in a very usable shape and hoped most of its issues could be ironed out over time. But some of the responses they have provided to requests from the community are concerning. They are either unable or unwilling to listen to feedback people here are giving them especially when there seems to be a consensus on features we would like (1000Hz option, smoothing free firmware, basic software etc).

It all seems to be under the premise of "this is what the pros want", but they're forgetting they aren't going to be selling to pros, they're selling to people who just want a damn good no compromise product.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: Ino



Originally Posted by *Ino.* 

I'm not the one criticizing, I just point out that Zowie does not make mice for your needs because they don't market towards those. That doesn't make Zowie bad in general. And that is my point. Yes, having CPI in steps of 50 is very beneficial to anyone playing a 2D game, but if you want that just don't buy Zowie. Like I said, there are lot's of mice that offer exactly that from other companies. The G302 or G303 for example are better in every technical detail compared to Zowie and also cheaper. Just buy those? Same goes for mice by Roccat.

It's not like them lying about what their product does.
Yeah, forgot about EC.
But disabling LEDs on a G303 (for example) still leaves you with a flashier looking mouse. Or any other of the new Logitech lineup. They just scream "gaming" from their design. Not saying that is bad, but it's not what I want.



My Logitech G303 is no more gamer than the Zowie FK1/2 and the white/black design. Neither truly look like office mice and you really are grasping at straws over this. Even you must understand why what I'm arguing is the *BEST* approach that satisfies everyone. There are no compromises.

Being able to change the polling rate via button combinations on the mouse is great. Being able to adjust the LOD via button combinations on the mouse is great. Being able to change CPI in 50 CPI increments and have that saved on the mouse is great. Everybody wins and those who like the default settings are happy. We are all happy and everybody gets what they want. As I said it is a no compromise approach.

Quote:

But disabling LEDs on a G303 (for example) still leaves you with a flashier looking mouse.

Good lord those mental gymnastics are going to get you a gold medal. Are you seriously arguing that a mouse with a bright LED in the scroll wheel that cannot be turned off is less flashy than a black mouse with all LEDs off and a grill paint finish on some sides.



Spoiler: Quote: dlano



Originally Posted by *dlano* 

This seems like incredibly naive thinking.

I'm also concerned about all these supposed variants coming out. I've no doubt they exist as prototypes, but in reality I bet only a single "marketable" variant will be released at most for the ergo and ambi.

I quite liked my FM, it was an early model, expensive and with a few issues. I loved the low weight in a very usable shape and hoped most of its issues could be ironed out over time. But some of the responses they have provided to requests from the community are concerning. They are either unable or unwilling to listen to feedback people here are giving them especially when there seems to be a consensus on features we would like (1000Hz option, smoothing free firmware, basic software etc).

It all seems to be under the premise of "this is what the pros want", but they're forgetting they aren't going to be selling to pros, they're selling to people who just want a damn good no compromise product.



FinalMouse is just lying. How is it perfect out the box if it doesn't support the 1200 CPI that I use on a 1080p monitor. The PMW-3310 supports that and they don't. Therefore not perfect. They sound like some kind of Steve Jobs wannabe.



Spoiler: Quote: a_ak57



Originally Posted by *a_ak57* 

Well, there's a difference between simply releasing gaming mice that look like office mice and doing things like "btw we lowered the input lag on our mice but if you want that give us $60-70 more for a new mouse. Also the scroll wheels are still bad because who the hell wants to spend money fixing that. And of course you still can't modify these 4 DPI settings, that ain't pro." And as pointed out, you actually can't turn off the LED in the EC series. Zowie does some nice things in not making spaceship mice and I like the size variant thing they do, but they don't simply cater to a niche, they've created a false one based on marketing. The complaints about zowie have nothing to do with them releasing boring-looking mice with good sensors, that's what pretty much everyone on this site wants. *The complaints are about the frugality/laziness they hide under marketing.*



I'm glad somebody else on this forum can spot the obvious.

If FinalMouse was smart they'd advertise it as a "softwareless" mouse and then have on their website a "tool" that isn't advertised to change CPI settings. If that "tool" was just an executable that didn't require an installation then everyone would be happy. All that "tool" needs to do is change CPI values and change LOD. Nothing more. Just have it tucked away under a random corner of the site.


----------



## trism

The reason why I dislike Zowie is that they are asking more money for less features and it seems like Finalmouse is really doing the same thing. I could understand if your first product is relatively featureless but all these comments... Oh well, the 'omgz0r jw used a zowie mouse did u see? lets throw cash to the monitor and buy 3!111" -crowd is constantly getting bigger so maybe it is a valid business strategy


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Well, there's a difference between simply releasing gaming mice that look like office mice and doing things like "btw we lowered the input lag on our mice but if you want that give us $60-70 more for a new mouse. Also the scroll wheels are still bad because who the hell wants to spend money fixing that. And of course you still can't modify these 4 DPI settings, that ain't pro." And as pointed out, you actually can't turn off the LED in the EC series. Zowie does some nice things in not making spaceship mice and I like the size variant thing they do, but they don't simply cater to a niche, they've created a false one based on marketing. The complaints about zowie have nothing to do with them releasing boring-looking mice with good sensors, that's what pretty much everyone on this site wants. The complaints are about the frugality/laziness they hide under marketing.


Well I think there are a lot of people who actually still go for their marketing, and as that being their target crowd they stick to it. It's of course a business driven decision instead of a technical one, that is why it is so rejected here.
They probably sell enough without putting in more work towards features that most of their target audience doesn't care for. Who here really knows if they would gain enough additional customers by adding software in 50 cpi steps to warrant the increased cost that would take. I don't know either of those numbers.

It's just a general thing, I don't see why any of the companies is bad for their way of marketing things. There are a lot objectively bad things that can be said about companies, like bad handling of RMAs, bad support in general, faulty products being sold because of bad QC etc. They deserve flack for that.
But them not offering the features you want just means: don't buy it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> My Logitech G303 is no more gamer than the Zowie FK1/2 and the white/black design. Neither truly look like office mice and you really are grasping at straws over this. Even you must understand why what I'm arguing is the *BEST* approach that satisfies everyone. There are no compromises.


See above. Judging from tech of course there is no compromise. Going by desired profit margin there is.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> The reason why I dislike Zowie is that they are asking more money for less features and it seems like Finalmouse is really doing the same thing.


And that is completely true! Them being too expensive for their features is a fact. Like I said, those are valid complaints which are best answered by not buying said products.

For the record: I'd love a tool like Mionix does for every mouse, even then Zowie and FinalMouse would be too expensive for what they produce.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Oh well, the 'omgz0r jw used a zowie mouse did u see? lets throw cash to the monitor and buy 3!111" -crowd is constantly getting bigger so maybe it is a valid business strategy


Oh man! One of the most overrated players is using a Zowie EC over a SteelSeries Sensei Raw? Time to buy a Zowie. Wait... Never mind. Razer has RGB LEDs, I got to buy that.

People who buy Zowie mice are not really the type that buy a mouse because a player uses it. If that was the case Zowie would sell a lot more than they do now because a lot of pro players, that are not forced to use a certain product, choose to use a Zowie mouse. Would these types of consumers want to buy a FinalMouse over a Zowie? Why would they want a FinalMouse over an EC, FK or ZA? If you want to sell to Zowie owners/users you have to give them a Zowie like product with more functionality than what Zowie offers.

I don't need another Zowie type product because I have enough of them to last a long time.

The Func Flick G1 (which is using a Holtek MCU) offers more functionality than FinalMouse and it's cheaper. That why I am looking at getting one after I see a proper review.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> For the record: I'd love a tool like Mionix does for every mouse, even then Zowie and FinalMouse would be too expensive for what they produce.


If FinalMouse offered a variant with an ALPS encoder, Japanese Omrons and a pair of free feet, the price would be more reasonable.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> So we're to understand that customers who purchased the FM2015 are losing out on features that could be implemented in order for marketing/branding to be easier/stronger for the future variant editions?


Best explanation. The other stuff they said doesn't really make much sense.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Why not just make the best mouse possible with _all_ the top of the line physical properties (switches, sensor, feet, cable, etc) and provide _all_ the optional software tweaks?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Being able to change the polling rate...Being able to adjust the LOD ...Being able to change CPI in 50 CPI increments. As I said it is a no compromise approach.


The point they make (right or wrong) is that the more universal the mouse, the less its performance optomization. Nobody here gives any quarter to that philosophy, but it seems to be Finalmouse' philosophy. They let Logitech/ Razer take care of the mass production stuff. Just postulating, but adding "a button for this" and "a button for that" adds how much weight before everyone's satisfied. Adding non-native DPI, non optimal polling rates ect does'n't fit their philosophy. At these prices though, they should definitely add any non compromising options.

I hate how everything's bloated nowadays in the name of "added value" (profit). It usually just brings down the product. Bloated operating systems, bloated 4k monitors smothering fps, bloated heavy cars (the older lighter bmw's handled better). Nice to have an attempt at optimization for those who don't need the extra stuff. Just don't gouged me for it. Part of the appeal of minimalism is that it should be cheap.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> @qsxcv
> 
> You will see a firmware without it [low pass filter] on a different mcu with the beta samples of the new sensor before the variants even are available..


ambi not included i guess.


----------



## aerowalk30

Probably more has to do with the way they act towards people who don't use the same gear. But seriously I don't think I've ever come across someone playing in the competitive environment who's taken the high road, its more like, "Oh hey you have a Zowie? You get the scroll-bug?" which then leads to a funny anecdote about a scroll death.

And even if there is needling in regards to what mouse or keyboard someone uses its rarely something thats enough to start an argument like this one. Everyone uses what they want to use because they can and generally want to and thats about all there is to it. There would never be this type of "niche hipster" argument between two people in a voice server over what DPI one another's mouse is capable of.

Unless I'm missing something here.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Basically, they saw a way to screw over the customer and get the customer to thank them at the end. The majority of people that recommend and buy Zowie mice are as ignorant as the rest of the market but with an extra helping of smug because they bought a "pro gaming" mouse. They bought it because they can feel smug for buying a NOT Razer mouse and that means they're a (real/hardcore/pro/true) gamer with class. I call these people minimalist morons. There is nothing wrong with minimalism but there is something wrong with people who define themselves by the group of people they are not and think that their aesthetic preferences are objectively superior to others. They are sometimes referred to as hipsters.


Could be. I for one am here looking for an updated lighter version of my beloved I.E 3.0 which happened to be pretty minimal. I don't care if it's hip or not, I just want the feeling back. All the Razers and Logitechs I had after never felt right (thanks to this forum i know why)
Maybe they can add all those options you want without compromise. Maybe the whole minimal philosophy is a load of crap. I really don't know. Do you?


----------



## trhead

Its not about any sort of philosophy, its just cost saving.

I only play fps games but it would be nice to use 900 or 1000dpi sometimes and also to disable buttons I don't need or assign a keyboard key to it etc.


----------



## aerowalk30

Looked like Karrigan was using some sort of ambi, for a second I thought it was the new Qpad mouse but I can't tell. I guess it could be a ZA series.


----------



## bruzanHD

I really think that the fnatic stuff is going to be good, it will hopefully make zowie and FM drop their prices. The shape looks to be an ergo ambi which will be a much more universal shape.


----------



## jung1e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Looked like Karrigan was using some sort of ambi, for a second I thought it was the new Qpad mouse but I can't tell. I guess it could be a ZA series.


pretty sure thats just a Kana no?


----------



## xIC3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> I think I will wait with buying the Ambi Final ...
> coz maybe another signature which will sold in ~2-4 weeks later will fit my wishes more ...
> I heared some Rumor about Q1/early Q2 2k16 *a new mice* with something relly good internals and sensor ( maybe the Best atm ) etc , low weight small Ambi ... I hope they use a better shape this Time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> for the Finalmouse Ambi , Im too undecided if any later Released Signature Variante would be better for me ... the shape looks good on the pics I saw , much better then original FM ( I was hating the Razer Imperator ) ...


What mice are you referring to?

BTW By reading all those posts in this thread, I'm kind of put off by the FM. Especially considering how many reviewers have had issues with their examples and had to send their mices back for a replacement. The QC is the issue, no clue if this will change for the new ambi FM.

What mouse would be best with a shape close to ambi, nothing crazy like Mionix Naos, the only thing that attracted me to FM is the weight. No other mice manufacture has a mouse that's decent size which is that light (correct me, if I'm wrong). I've tried the 3366 lately, its not a bad sensor but still miles behind the MLT04 in terms of feeling in CS... I guess I'll wait till 2016 and see what comes out, no point in buying early models of the FM as they'll most likely be dodgy, hopefully Ino and some other reviewers on here get a sample to review. I would also like to see a review from *Maximillion*...

I'm not trying to hate on FM, as I've never tried the original 2015 mice before, There're just a lot of people who seem to go on a compromise, as FM is offering something that others aren't e.g. low weight. Why can't Microsoft refresh Intelli mice and improve the MLT04 sensor with 500hz polling rate and 3 step adjustable DPI (I only use 800 on desktop), low weight and ambi shape that's decent size (possibly copy the size idea from ZA series?). I would even pay 100 quid for a mice like that, 0.000001% of that happening, especially since MS doesn't seem to do any gaming gear any more apart from consoles & accessories...


----------



## DRiMR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Looked like Karrigan was using some sort of ambi, for a second I thought it was the new Qpad mouse but I can't tell. I guess it could be a ZA series.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aerowalk30*
> 
> Looked like Karrigan was using some sort of ambi, for a second I thought it was the new Qpad mouse but I can't tell. I guess it could be a ZA series.


It is rival 100 but today karrigan was using rival fade.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> What mice are you referring to?
> 
> BTW By reading all those posts in this thread, I'm kind of put off by the FM. Especially considering how many reviewers have had issues with their examples and had to send their mices back for a replacement. The QC is the issue, no clue if this will change for the new ambi FM.
> 
> What mouse would be best with a shape close to ambi, nothing crazy like Mionix Naos, the only thing that attracted me to FM is the weight. No other mice manufacture has a mouse that's decent size which is that light (correct me, if I'm wrong). I've tried the 3366 lately, its not a bad sensor but still miles behind the MLT04 in terms of feeling in CS... I guess I'll wait till 2016 and see what comes out, no point in buying early models of the FM as they'll most likely be dodgy, hopefully Ino and some other reviewers on here get a sample to review. I would also like to see a review from *Maximillion*...


None actually. And that's what a lot of people are waiting since Microsoft got out of the mouse business.

IE1.1 / WM1.1 / IE3 clones with an up to date sensor and switches. Relatively big and bulky (by today's standards anyway), none of that ergonomic, race car look, light, well balanced, good predictable sensor, good wheel, buttons, flexible cable, and small feet. Simple, no nonsense, maybe some decent side buttons (which I'd prefer), should be cheap stuff really, at least 'cheaper'.

You have to wonder, how I hard can it be? The gaming mouse business is all marketing. The Zowie / FM sell you less for more, under the pretense of 'pro gaming'. The closest to a IE1.1 / WMO1.1 IMO would be a Zowie ZA12 (or ZA11 for a MX518 replacement). I'm not hating on Zowies, I have about 1/2 a dozen, but they ain't exactly listening to the critics (mainly ergonomics, wheel, feet) as they should, and they ain't exactly value for money.

I have a FM too. It's a bit ropey quality-wise. The rubber on the wheel was cut by a mong, The internal light is super bright and can't be switched off, the shell ergonomics is OK, but has some weird deep thumb indent, and the thumb buttons aren't exactly easy to reach or actuate, and feel really cheap. Don't like the braided cable either. Why did they bothered with that, apart from marketing and scoring points in 'reviews'. Still, it's my main mouse, it does what its suppose to do, and is comfortable enough.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

I wonder how long they will take for the restock this time around. Holidays are more than here. I'm sure if they don't have a good batch ready soon they will miss out on good holiday sales.


----------



## coldc0ffee

They're either waiting until next week to announce something...hopefully...or they're waiting until next year...


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> They're either waiting until next week to announce something...hopefully...or they're waiting until next year...


We Gon'see


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> They're either waiting until next week to announce something...hopefully...or they're waiting until next year...


I don't get why the guy came in here arguing with everyone and skipped over a simple question like what version is going to release first - I mean even a "We're not sure yet" response would be efficient enough for me

Derp. lets see


----------



## espgodson

I'd take a mouse with no dpi switch, no lights, just good omrons, good cable, good mousewheel.

#400dpionly


----------



## wareya

WMO?


----------



## espgodson

Can't force 500hz on esea and I lan a lot which makes it super annoying


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *espgodson*
> 
> Can't force 500hz on esea and I lan a lot which makes it super annoying


Better hope their comps have one of those "gaming mouse ports"


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I don't get why the guy came in here arguing with everyone and skipped over a simple question like what version is going to release first - I mean even a "We're not sure yet" response would be efficient enough for me
> 
> Derp. lets see


I think just a week ago they said they were still using beta samples and didn't enter full production. That's pretty much a "we're not sure yet" if you ask me.


----------



## qsxcv

oh the next thing they release will be 3310 for sure. their beta stuff is probably just for testing pixart's new mid-range sensor


----------



## jeshuastarr

logitechs sole use rights of a 3366 sensor are over, other companies can start to implement the general use version 3361/3360 (forgot which)

none of them have done it yet, but i suspect a few surprises coming up


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Yeah brands with actual R&D and Engineering probably have already been working at it. Meanwhile others stare longingly at their screens waiting for that next email from their vendor(doubtful scenario)


----------



## qsxcv

i think their stuff for beta testing is more likely to be related to the 3336


----------



## IlIkeJuice

That would be interesting... But I don't think so.

They wouldn't be quiet about it though. Kind of a big deal to switch sensor.

I don't think anyone would complain if it delayed development, so not the reason, more likely it's a 3310, with possibly yet another 'finalmouse' in the middle of 2016.


----------



## discoprince

so i guess the ambi wont be making a holiday release


----------



## kkim

anyone know if they are going to be getting more of the classic ergo version in stock? Its been sold out for some time now.

Also some of the changes like side buttons 1000hz polling better side plastic etc, will those be incorporated into the new ergo version? And whats the horizon look like for these? late Dec release, or early Jan?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

No idea for the release at ALL. We hope this week?? Otherwise, some time in 2016 we suppose.


----------



## sonskusa

thought some may find this interesting -
Quote:


> Been so happy on my @finalmouse past cpl months. Excited to announce I'm having my own mouse made. The #ScreamOne coming very soon


----------



## Maximillion

And the variant flood begins...


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonskusa*
> 
> thought some may find this interesting -


Quote:


> "with anticipation of the #ScreamOne, new site, and 2016 tournament ambi... we think a teaser picture is in order"


I don't like teaser images especially if the mouse is coming out soon.


----------



## zeflow

So there is going to be two new mice? Screamone and Ambi


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Coming days huh?? Hopefully by thurs/friday. Christmas is soon, i want my presents.


----------



## aLv1080

PogChamp


----------



## trhead

Scream is overrated af. Where's my Olof, Guardian or Device mouse?


----------



## pubst4r

scream aim is not overrated IMO. the guy tracks head like no others, simply his playstyle/gamesense doesnt make him a player we consider top5


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Scream is overrated af. Where's my Olof, Guardian or Device mouse?


Or Flusha's mouse that aims automatically for you


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Or Flusha's mouse that aims automatically for you


HAHAHA.

But am I the only one who disagrees with these variants or at least for now. Fm set out out make the best mouse possible they need to fix the 500 hz delay poor quality buttons and the mouse feet that wear out faster then anything I have ever used. Then when they fix that release your variants...... I hope im not the only one who thinks like this.


----------



## ncck

Next announcement will probably be dec 20th with scream revealing it


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

yea it doesn't look like they'll be ready to before the new year.


----------



## Needfeet

Still no options for replacement feet.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Needfeet*
> 
> Still no options for replacement feet.


I thought i was the only one who had this issue I contacted support 3 times and i got so PO that they still dont have any mouse feet that i just ordered an fk2 and i love it.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Next announcement will probably be dec 20th with scream revealing it


That's why I don't like when they release teaser images. Usually that type of marketing is a drawn out process that doesn't build hype, rather it creates annoyance and disdain.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That's why I don't like when they release teaser images. Usually that type of marketing is a drawn out process that doesn't build hype, rather it creates annoyance and disdain.


I agree it is annoying. I only saw that december 20th scream will be somewhere live with the product so I guess that's their announcement plan to have him introduce it and build hype or something. I hope the product is good. And I also hope the one that fits my requirements releases or I'll have to wait even longer


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Hopefully they announce & release within the next 3 weeks, because people will be ready to throw $. I got a FM SE,l from a 3rd party dealer just to play with until these products release.

Mouse feet should be a goal of theirs since it's been brought up plenty of times. Fingers crossed in hopes of them hearing & planning to do something about it.


----------



## Sencha

While I agree mouse feet should be available that specifically fit id still use 1.1/3.0 skates like I've done on every mouse for the past decade. Give it a try!


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Another teaser image if anyone cares to look.

https://mobile.twitter.com/finalmouse/status/677223853773467652


----------



## trhead

Looks good. I'll most likely buy this one


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Another teaser image if anyone cares to look.
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/finalmouse/status/677223853773467652


I pray it has 4 mouse feet and not 2 big ones, then this will be the mouse for me.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I pray it has 4 mouse feet and not 2 big ones, then this will be the mouse for me.


If it only has 2 big ones, i'm sure you could adjust to it in no time.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> If it only has 2 big ones, i'm sure you could adjust to it in no time.


I hold my mouse tilted (yeah that sounds weird, for example) my mouse looks like this /
when I hold it. So having 4 feet 1 in each corner allows me to keep it angled and not feel weird.. if that makes any sense. I also feel it affects glide speed

I mean could I use 2 big feet? ya.. but I wouldn't like it as much


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I hold my mouse tilted (yeah that sounds weird, for example) my mouse looks like this /


Why?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> If it only has 2 big ones, i'm sure you could adjust to it in no time.


I like small circular mouse feet. Less friction and even glide resistance. That's very important on mouse pads such as the Artisan Hien.

If the area to put the feet is large enough, like the Zowie AM/FK/ZA, you can use Intellimouse feet or make your own from a sheet of PTFE using a punch.

http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2015/06/g100s.html


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> Why?


I don't know that's how I'm sitting and how my wrist is, I aim with my whole arm but for smaller shots I just tilt my wrist

For a cs example I have 400 dpi @ 1.4 in-game to give you an idea of my sens, no idea why I hold it this way. I use both arm/wrist to aim, sometimes I claw and sometimes I palm it's whatever lol

@above I've never used circular mousefeet and the only ones I've seen were the artisan custom feet. The "best" custom feet I ever used was hyperglide. I tried tiger gaming but they just felt like standard mouse feet. I also tried puretrak and didn't care for those either. Umm yea so hopefully this mouse or one iteration has the 4 feet with that braided cable and I'll have found my new main driver!


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> If it only has 2 big ones, i'm sure you could adjust to it in no time.
> 
> 
> 
> I like small circular mouse feet. Less friction and even glide resistance. That very important on mouse pads such as the Artisan Hien.
> 
> If the area to put the feet is large enough, like the Zowie AM/FK/ZA, you can use Intellimouse feet or make your own from a sheet of PTFE using a punch.
> 
> http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2015/06/g100s.html
Click to expand...

Where can I buy them?


----------



## qsxcv

http://www.amazon.com/Hyperglide-Mouse-Skates-Logitech-MX300/dp/B0121M5I4M


----------



## Derp

If you think the hyperglides qsxcv posted are too expensive you can buy a bunch more feet for less money from Takasta:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hotline-Games-Logitech-G1-MX300-Mouse-Feet-2014-Edition-/121413908831?var=&hash=item1c44d5395f:m:mZ8SkqwwbEzG_EkPr0SlgUw


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I don't know that's how I'm sitting and how my wrist is


I do the same because otherwise the cross hairs track diagonally and don't stay head level. Guess your situation is different. Symmetrical mice usually do better with my grip, so still looking at the Ambi even though it has a bit of smoothing / lag.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> I do the same because otherwise the cross hairs track diagonally and don't stay head level. Guess your situation is different. Symmetrical mice usually do better with my grip, so still looking at the Ambi even though it has a bit of smoothing / lag.


where did u hear about the fm ambi lag/ smoothing?????????


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> where did u hear about the fm ambi lag/ smoothing?????????


Read the thread?


----------



## qsxcv

3000+ posts is a bit much to read.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> where did u hear about the fm ambi lag/ smoothing?????????


3310 has a small amount of smoothing
the original and the current finalmouse (i.e. summer edition whatever) have further smoothing added via the mcu
no one knows whether their ambi version will also have the mcu added smoothing. but if i had to guess i'll say that it will and it will still be using a 3310


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Read the thread?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 3000+ posts is a bit much to read.
> 3310 has a small amount of smoothing
> the original and the current finalmouse (i.e. summer edition whatever) have further smoothing added via the mcu
> no one knows whether their ambi version will also have the mcu added smoothing. but if i had to guess i'll say that it will and it will still be using a 3310


I read all the posts...

For some reason Holtek MCUs have MCU filtering/smoothing. It appears every mouse that uses those MCUs have it. That's why I wasn't surprised the Ninox Aurora performs like it does.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> where did u hear about the fm ambi lag/ smoothing?????????


start here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1380#post_23988126


----------



## qsxcv

lol those posts by jude make me cringe so hard


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*


What kb is that?


----------



## qsxcv

cm storm quickfire rapid or something


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> cm storm quickfire rapid or something


How is the debounce latency?


----------



## qsxcv

no idea


----------



## Zenith Phantasm




----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> How is the debounce latency?


I use PS/2 for mine. Don't know if MCU debounce affects that.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> How is the debounce latency?
> 
> 
> 
> I use PS/2 for mine. Don't know if MCU debounce affects that.
Click to expand...

PS/2 only reduces latency by like 1ms if USB keyboards actually do 1000ms. Im using a Blackwidow 2014 TE Stealth (Kailh Orange atm) and its latency is utter trash :/


----------



## qsxcv

debouncing and ps/2 vs usb are kind of independent

whether there's latency due to debouncing depends on how the algorithm though


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> debouncing and ps/2 vs usb are kind of independent
> 
> whether there's latency due to debouncing depends on how the algorithm though


I'll just patiently wait for Bloody's B700 to arrive


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

I mean if you are really really hung up on ps/2 still, SkyDigital has been putting out keyboards that use ps/2 and usb at the same time.

Like:
usb mode: just usb cable
ps/2 mode, usb and ps/2 cable plugged in at the same time


----------



## xIC3x

The ambi and scream one are the same mouse or two different mice?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> The ambi and scream one are the same mouse or two different mice?


Two different mice.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> lol those posts by jude make me cringe so hard


Well when you hold their feet to the fire, all parties comes out better for it. I'm sure they learned things.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> the cross hairs track diagonally and don't stay head level..


Talking to myself... for anyone interested Provohat's driver adjusts mouse orientation! Works great. This driver is better than any OEM driver I've seen. Adjustable accel curves...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmY1OTacEzA
http://mouseaccel.blogspot.com/2015/11/in-depth-list-of-all-driver-settings.html


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> I mean if you are really really hung up on ps/2 still, SkyDigital has been putting out keyboards that use ps/2 and usb at the same time.
> 
> Like:
> usb mode: just usb cable
> ps/2 mode, usb and ps/2 cable plugged in at the same time


I just want something thats low latency, linear or clicky (I dont like browns) switch, TKL, and doesnt look like its designed by a mentally challenged person.


----------



## Sencha

Leopold 750r


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Leopold 750r


Sorry for the offtopic, but do you know any 60% kb with ps/2 support?


----------



## Sencha

The 2015 Leopold f660m has it. Best 60% board as well for build quality. Get one from Widebasket on ebay great seller.


----------



## phamtom

I think you can use an adapter with the vortex pok3r, but why do you need it?


----------



## Sencha

I'd avoid the pok3r. The build quality is sub par.


----------



## xIC3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> The 2015 Leopold f660m has it. Best 60% board as well for build quality. Get one from Widebasket on ebay great seller.


I can see you're from the UK too, where can I buy this keyboard? Is there possibly a alternative that I can get in the UK or EU??

I was set on buying Corsair K65 with RED's, but not sure how good it is?


----------



## phamtom

I'd have to disagree strongly. I mean it's made out of a chunk of aluminum


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> I can see you're from the UK too, where can I buy this keyboard? Is there possibly a alternative that I can get in the UK or EU??
> 
> I was set on buying Corsair K65 with RED's, but not sure how good it is?


I bought a Leopold FC660m the other week off E-bay via: Widebasket. If you need the link, let me know and I'll send it to you, but it's one of the best keyboards that I've ever used, it just feels amazing to type on. But he ships them from Japan I think it is and the usually come in about 7-10 days, mine came the following week, just do it man, you wont regret it.

On an unrelated note, does anyone happen to know when the new Finalmouse will be getting released, with its changes and what not? I know it's going to be sometime next year, but I don't have an exact date or timeframe, anyone else got some more information?


----------



## exitone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I bought a Leopold FC660m the other week off E-bay via: Widebasket. If you need the link, let me know and I'll send it to you, but it's one of the best keyboards that I've ever used, it just feels amazing to type on. But he ships them from Japan I think it is and the usually come in about 7-10 days, mine came the following week, just do it man, you wont regret it.
> 
> On an unrelated note, does anyone happen to know when the new Finalmouse will be getting released, with its changes and what not? I know it's going to be sometime next year, but I don't have an exact date or timeframe, anyone else got some more information?


It's about $240usd even if you buy it from official sellers overseas.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exitone*
> 
> It's about $240usd even if you buy it from official sellers overseas.


I got mine for mine for roughly $131.50 which is £86.30, so not bad, not bad at-all, so not entirely sure where you're getting you're figures from.

But for me it was £82.04 for the board and £6.26 for the shipping!


----------



## TburdzZ

I was just watching moe tv twitch stream and he is sponsored by fm. He said he was not going to be streaming this weekend because he had to travel to release a new finalmouse product with scream and someone else. So expect somthing before tues as he said he gets home Tuesday.


----------



## alphabet

Do they continue to manufacture the FM 2015 at all or will it just remain unavailable as they work towards the FM 2016?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> I was just watching moe tv twitch stream and he is sponsored by fm. He said he was not going to be streaming this weekend because he had to travel to release a new finalmouse product with scream and someone else. So expect somthing before tues as he said he gets home Tuesday.


Guessing it's not a re-stock of the FM 2015.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I bought a Leopold FC660m the other week off E-bay via: Widebasket. If you need the link, let me know and I'll send it to you, but it's one of the best keyboards that I've ever used, it just feels amazing to type on. But he ships them from Japan I think it is and the usually come in about 7-10 days, mine came the following week, just do it man, you wont regret it.
> 
> On an unrelated note, does anyone happen to know when the new Finalmouse will be getting released, with its changes and what not? I know it's going to be sometime next year, but I don't have an exact date or timeframe, anyone else got some more information?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> I was just watching moe tv twitch stream and he is sponsored by fm. He said he was not going to be streaming this weekend because he had to travel to release a new finalmouse product with scream and someone else. So expect somthing before tues as he said he gets home Tuesday.


All info on NEW releases will be tomorrow at the event frim 11am-1pm. That's regarding the scream one & the ambi as far as we know.

When the original FM will be re stocked we have no idea, hopefully we get an update tomorrow.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> I was just watching moe tv twitch stream and he is sponsored by fm. He said he was not going to be streaming this weekend because he had to travel to release a new finalmouse product with scream and someone else. So expect somthing before tues as he said he gets home Tuesday.


Awesome, that's great news. Cannot wait to see what kind of changes are going to be prevalent in the new mouse, definitely going to be picking one up instantly.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phamtom*
> 
> I'd have to disagree strongly. I mean it's made out of a chunk of aluminum


Thats the case and its poorly done cast IMO. The back plates tend to have rust under the paint works, the stock keycaps are poor and the stabs feels off. This coming from an owner of one, but also I've seen a lot of examples as well. Its the worst 60% I own. but glad you like yours...that's all that matters. The Korean made F660m is in a different league of build quality though, so check one out if you ever fancy a change.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> I can see you're from the UK too, where can I buy this keyboard? Is there possibly a alternative that I can get in the UK or EU??
> 
> I was set on buying Corsair K65 with RED's, but not sure how good it is?


Widebasket on Ebay has them. He's an amazing vendor.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Widebasket on Ebay has them. He's an amazing vendor.


Fully concur, Widebasket is trustworthy as an Ebay seller.

Be aware he isn't cheap so weigh that up if you really want to buy it off him.


----------



## kashim

need it


----------



## aayman_farzand

So aren't they done with the press release already?


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> So aren't they done with the press release already?


Yes but I guess we'll see an announcement this week or possibly a youtube video? I'm not sure


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Sounds like they are bs'ing to me.


----------



## xIC3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Widebasket on Ebay has them. He's an amazing vendor.


Cheers, what are the chances of getting charge customs etc? I usually don't, but the product which I buy from Korea or Chin is usually well below 50 quid...

Can you change the keycaps?

Edit
So there's still no news on the FM? I really want to see the Ambi put next to ScreamOne, I think the ScreamOne will be very similiar to DA just without those annoying edges which hurt my fingers when I palm the mouse. It all depends how much input Adil had in the making of this mouse, only time will tell?


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> Cheers, what are the chances of getting charge customs etc? I usually don't, but the product which I buy from Korea or Chin is usually well below 50 quid...
> 
> Can you change the keycaps?
> 
> Edit
> So there's still no news on the FM? I really want to see the Ambi put next to ScreamOne, I think the ScreamOne will be very similiar to DA just without those annoying edges which hurt my fingers when I palm the mouse. It all depends how much input Adil had in the making of this mouse, only time will tell?


Im in England and I didn't get charged anything for customs both times. And on the 2015 edition, all of the keycaps are changeable and they've opted for standard space bar stabilizers, so that's also good. It's just an amazing keyboard, I bought one as soon as they became available.


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Wasn't there supposed to be fm news today?


----------



## invena

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kyotkyotkyot*
> 
> Wasn't there supposed to be fm news today?


I thought so, ive been checking finalmouse's facebook and twitter.
Scream and Moe's twitter. They are at at an event for finalmouse but no real info...

https://twitter.com/finalmouse?lang=en
https://twitter.com/m0E_tv
https://twitter.com/Titan_ScreaM

They gave some guy a finalmouse for winning a cs go deathmatch: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=939235852790122&set=gm.492008884320088&type=3&theater
: but it just looks like an old 2015 version. I need a new mouse pretty badly (had a za13 but sent it back after I heard they were redesigning), waiting to see what they release. I'm using a steam controller for everything and it's terrible!


----------



## c0dy

http://www.overclock.net/f/373/keyboards

And can you get back to the topic now pls?


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Why? There will prolly be a new g502 before any finalmouse pics let alone public releases.


----------



## Houser

You know something about some new release from Logitech?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Houser*
> 
> You know something about some new release from Logitech?
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


Well they removed the G100s from the their site, maybe an updated version will be released in 2016.


----------



## invena

Finalmouse Twitter:

"Having good times at the Scream One photoshoot... esports is about to change. @Titan_ScreaM #screamone #esports"

Well, we will see if esports 'changes'. Feeling a little bit of the gimmick here. Curious to see the hardware in this mouse.


----------



## trhead

He is marketable that's for sure. Lewis Hamilton of CS:GO ?


----------



## Klopfer

"Curious to see the hardware in this mouse."
ahhh OK ...
really much Input he did ...

for me that sounds more he doesnt know anything , neither that he is excited about (maybe 3366 etc ) in that shape ...


----------



## ramraze

Fm tweeted in July: "ambi version coming soon". Lol.
Nothing but smoke and mirror hype train.

I doubt its 3366. It's gonna be the "best" sensor on the market, the mighty ol 3310 again.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *invena*
> 
> Finalmouse Twitter:
> 
> "Having good times at the Scream One photoshoot... esports is about to change. @Titan_ScreaM #screamone #esports"
> 
> Well, we will see if esports 'changes'. Feeling a little bit of the gimmick here. Curious to see the hardware in this mouse.


Ah, I see they are using "cringe" marketing tactics.


----------



## qsxcv

at least they're not using shill accounts anymore. or at least not blatantly like before


----------



## invena

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Fm tweeted in July: "ambi version coming soon". Lol.
> Nothing but smoke and mirror hype train.
> 
> I doubt its 3366. It's gonna be the "best" sensor on the market, the mighty ol 3310 again.


Probably, I've been suffering with a g303 shape solely because of the sensor. Heard that Logitech's exclusivity expired, so hoping for another option.


----------



## qsxcv

well fyi
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jeshuastarr*
> 
> logitechs sole use rights of a 3366 sensor are over, other companies can start to implement the general use version 3361/3360 (forgot which)
> 
> none of them have done it yet, but i suspect a few surprises coming up


this post is correct


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *invena*
> 
> Probably, I've been suffering with a g303 shape solely because of the sensor. Heard that Logitech's exclusivity expired, so hoping for another option.


My first optical mouse was a logitech - really long time ago. Honestly I remember it being an amazing simple mouse, I use to frag real hard on arenas with it. Then (I knew nothing about mice) I got the logitech g9x laser - I have to say despite the claims of inconsistency in lasers I remember being able to snap to targets super fast with the laser. But If it ever came down to making minor focus adjustments to someone standing still and just moving back and fourth it was a nightmare.

Then I moved onto deathadder which was good but uncomfortable for me - then the rival which was actually a fairly solid mouse besides some weird sensor 'smooth' then my sidings on it decayed fully.. Not sure why I ever changed from that mouse I was getting quite good with it - now I'm on the 2014 fk1 which is.... it's good and bad. I have a feeling the screamone will resemble a deathadder because I recall scream always using a DA in source

Lets see!


----------



## Sencha

Delete


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *invena*
> 
> Finalmouse Twitter:
> 
> "Having good times at the Scream One photoshoot... esports is about to change. @Titan_ScreaM #screamone #esports"
> 
> Well, we will see if esports 'changes'. Feeling a little bit of the gimmick here. Curious to see the hardware in this mouse.


The tourney paintball manufacturers got into this style of marketing bout a decade ago. Didn't work out so well. Pros ain't loyal and at the end of the day only two companies were actually innovating, and even then, at a snail's pace. Good luck Finalmouse. You're gonna need it.


----------



## xIC3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> He is marketable that's for sure. Lewis Hamilton of CS:GO ?


The thing is, Lewis Hamilton is marketing a MV Augusta Brutale 800. Not some mice, haha









Any news regarding the mouse, any pictures? I don't think many people give a single F about photoshoots of Scream, I don't mind him... I just don't like delays...


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Maybe the delay is for releasing the mouse along side a copper infused, gaming grade compression shirt with ScreaM's signature on it. Really help with those snapshots.


----------



## Sencha

Maybe the side grips will be made with Screams side burn hair.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sencha*
> 
> Maybe the side grips will be made with Screams side burn hair.


There is no denying he has really nice hair lol


----------



## Sencha

I had this picture mocked up professionally.


----------



## xIC3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> There is no denying he has really nice hair lol


He surely does lol


----------



## Needfeet

I just bought the new ducky secret mouse and I'm so glad I did. Quality leaps and bounds above my crappy finalmouse. It uses no software, has 1000hz, you can change the colors or turn them off, comes with a HUGE deskmat/mouse pad for free and they include extra replacement feet. How much? Less than 70.00 with free shipping. Bye bye finalmouse.


----------



## b0z0

Anyone know where I can order replacement mouse skates


----------



## Sencha

Hyperglide/Takasta. Just get some 3.0/1,0 feet on there.


----------



## Needfeet

I've been working with hyperglide for a few months. They have been sending me feet to test on my finalmouse. They think the mx-3 will be the best fit. They are currently out of stock on those. I'll let everyone know when I receive them and test them out. I can't say enough good things about hyperglides tho, great company and great products.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

The only bad thing about hyperglides is the lack of proper product coverage and the extraorbitant price.


----------



## Kayed

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Needfeet*
> 
> I just bought the new ducky secret mouse and I'm so glad I did. Quality leaps and bounds above my crappy finalmouse. It uses no software, has 1000hz, you can change the colors or turn them off, comes with a HUGE deskmat/mouse pad for free and they include extra replacement feet. How much? Less than 70.00 with free shipping. Bye bye finalmouse.


cool


----------



## xIC3x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Needfeet*
> 
> I just bought the new ducky secret mouse and I'm so glad I did. Quality leaps and bounds above my crappy finalmouse. It uses no software, has 1000hz, you can change the colors or turn them off, comes with a HUGE deskmat/mouse pad for free and they include extra replacement feet. How much? Less than 70.00 with free shipping. Bye bye finalmouse.


120g seems really heavy... I'm currently using a mice that weights 68g, when I picked up my G400 105g that felt heavy so I couldn't go back to using a mouse that weights over 100g now.

Come on FM, gives us some info ... I'm tired of waiting.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> 120g seems really heavy... I'm currently using a mice that weights 68g, when I picked up my G400 105g that felt heavy so I couldn't go back to using a mouse that weights over 100g now.
> 
> Come on FM, gives us some info ... I'm tired of waiting.


Just takes a few consistent days to get use to the weight is all.


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> 120g seems really heavy... I'm currently using a mice that weights 68g, when I picked up my G400 105g that felt heavy so I couldn't go back to using a mouse that weights over 100g now.
> 
> Come on FM, gives us some info ... I'm tired of waiting.


----------



## Deadeye

I think they will introduce this mouse in CES


----------



## qsxcv

but they aren't going to ces?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> but they aren't going to ces?


Maybe when they are done taking pictures of Scream they will start the launch.


----------



## jtl999

https://twitter.com/finalmouse/status/678999063631540224

lol


----------



## Pa12a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> https://twitter.com/finalmouse/status/678999063631540224
> 
> lol


How to make big $$$ in a nutshell....

Take an overrated aimer and slap him on a gaming product, ezpz


----------



## qsxcv

well not too surprising... theyre just copying zowie again


----------



## Pa12a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well not too surprising... theyre just copying zowie again


Well, at least Zowie takes actual CS talent for a change. :>


----------



## pixie99

They honestly mistimed the hype train. Had the impression Scream was in USA to launch the product but he was there mainly to take studio pictures. -_- Wondering if he even used the new mouse at the event since every picture shown carefully avoids showing his mouse.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pa12a*
> 
> Take an overrated aimer and slap him on a gaming product, ezpz


He's still one of the best aimers out there, makes perfect sense to recruit him. Not sure about Moe lol.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> He's still one of the best aimers out there, makes perfect sense to recruit him. Not sure about Moe lol.


Scream is one of the best if not the best CSGO aimers when it comes to raw aim.

Moe also has extremely good aim, however moe plays on such a low sensitivity that he handicaps himself. When your sensitivity is that low you cannot be as good with rifles/pistols compared to higher sens players (who have perfect muscle memory on the higher sens) because they can do the same thing as you, except twice as fast.

Anyway they're both good players to recruit if you're trying to get feedback for a gaming mouse. It's just moe can't reach screams level of aim because of his sensitivity. Sure they can't go into detail like you guys can. But they can give comments on how a sensor feels, mouse buttons feel, and the shape. Which is also an important factor to all of us.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm




----------



## Pa12a

Products promoted with s1mple, Flamie, Fer, cold, NBK and so on wouldn't get as much recognition.

ScreaM is more expensive because of his name and what he did back then, not what he does now if I want to be really honest. He still has it sometimes, but he's nowhere near that old 2012/2013 route..


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Pa12a*
> 
> ScreaM is more expensive because of his name and what he did back then, not what he does now if I want to be really honest. He still has it sometimes, but he's nowhere near that old 2012/2013 route..


Scream had more impact when the net code was atrocious and he could constantly strafe.


----------



## alphabet

Is there any official word outside of
Quote:


> Finalmouse ‏@finalmouse Nov 30
> 
> North America is currently sold out of finalmouse's. Please stay tuned for updates... big changes happening soon for 2016/holidays! #esports


I really don't want to assume their plans of an updated inventory will be with FM 2016.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Scream had more impact when the net code was atrocious and he could constantly strafe.


More true words have never been spoken.


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Scream had more impact when the net code was atrocious and he could constantly strafe.


Don't know why net code matters on LAN, it was just the recoil+strafe recovery changes that nerfed that play style.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iceskeleton*
> 
> Don't know why net code matters on LAN, it was just the recoil+strafe recovery changes that nerfed that play style.


http://www.hltv.org/?pageid=135&userid=447046&blogid=9894


----------



## Kayed

Scream ins't getting worse, the game is.

No skill in rng ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> http://www.hltv.org/?pageid=135&userid=447046&blogid=9894


Don't see what that example has to do with scream becoming bad. He became "bad" after the recoil/strafe update (see here https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2eq6l0/pimp_on_why_screams_performance_got_worse_over/ck1yvau). Which was well before that allu shot example and before the "hitbox bubble" update which I think is what you are referring to when you say "the net code was atrocious".


----------



## Pa12a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kayed*
> 
> Scream ins't getting worse, the game is.
> 
> No skill in rng ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Only things they nerfed that stayed were acceleration to counter ADAD and running accuracy on the main rifles (which were good changes, mind you).

There's nothing with ScreaM getting worse that had to do with RNG because it was like that since the game launched.


----------



## Kayed

How is forcing people to use a certain play style a "good change"


----------



## xIC3x

Are you guys talking about the Winter Update (*Release Notes for 12/15/2015*) which technically doesn't exist anymore, as everything went back to normal?
Quote:


> We made some adjustments to rifles recently, and those changes have been causing a lot of pain in the CS:GO community. The pain was the result of a few mistakes we made, and while we usually prefer to avoid disrupting conversations happening in the community, we wanted to talk about some of the thinking that led to the recent changes as well as our plan for moving forward.


----------



## aayman_farzand

No they are talking about the update which changed the linear player acceleration. I think it's been a year since that update.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iceskeleton*
> 
> Don't see what that example has to do with scream becoming bad. He became "bad" after the recoil/strafe update (see here https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2eq6l0/pimp_on_why_screams_performance_got_worse_over/ck1yvau). Which was well before that allu shot example and before the "hitbox bubble" update which I think is what you are referring to when you say "the net code was atrocious".


When Scream had a lot of impact the net code settings was worse than now, horrible hit boxes (also larger), the movement values faster and the tagging ineffective. Scream could constantly strafe to exploit the registration issues (yes, it was an issue on LAN too) and use the faster movement speed to make it harder for a human to land a head shot. The leg hit boxes didn't sync with the client and the server, the clock correction was high, etc. Now Scream has to fight straight up with other pro players, which doesn't work out like it did before.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> horrible hit boxes (also larger).


If I'm not mistaken the jitboxes actually got were smaller before the update.
http://bit.ly/1QLaLmn
As demonstrated in that photo.


----------



## pixie99

Moe has huge and rabid fan base.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> When Scream had a lot of impact the net code settings was worse than now, horrible hit boxes (also larger), the movement values faster and the tagging ineffective. Scream could constantly strafe to exploit the registration issues (yes, it was an issue on LAN too) and use the faster movement speed to make it harder for a human to land a head shot. The leg hit boxes didn't sync with the client and the server, the clock correction was high, etc. Now Scream has to fight straight up with other pro players, which doesn't work out like it did before.


To rephrase, the netcode advantage before was called "peeker's advantage" where someone peeking on an enemy holding an angle would see the enemy first due to interpolation. Scream was great at counter-strafe shooting too so the interpolation aided him greatly.

But the effects are largely reduced on LAN since the netcode fix but still present online unless you have a ping below 10-15 (even so you have to set your interp values accordingly and laggy enemies will end up looking "choppy").


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> If I'm not mistaken the jitboxes actually got were smaller before the update.
> http://bit.ly/1QLaLmn
> As demonstrated in that photo.


The hit boxes went through ~4 changes, possibly more. When Scream was impressing people with his aim the hit boxes were larger.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> To rephrase, the netcode advantage before was called "peeker's advantage" where someone peeking on an enemy holding an angle would see the enemy first due to interpolation. Scream was great at counter-strafe shooting too so the interpolation aided him greatly.
> 
> But the effects are largely reduced on LAN since the netcode fix but still present online unless you have a ping below 10-15 (even so you have to set your interp values accordingly and laggy enemies will end up looking "choppy").


Scream's aiming ability is much the same. It's just that all the unfair advantages he "exploited" made it harder for his opponents. Now the playing field is more even. Same kind of thing happened with NiP.

What would be impressive, in terms of mouse control, is if Scream could "master" spraying like he did tapping. Controlling a spray in GO requires fast and smaller movements. I think Shroud is good at using his G303 to spray.


----------



## Oeshon

When is Finalmouse Ambidextrous supposed to come out?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oeshon*
> 
> When is Finalmouse Ambidextrous supposed to come out?


No one knows yet but accorsind to FM's twitter very soon. Although they don't always have the same definition of "soon" as the rest of us.


----------



## xIC3x

It should be here by 2020, HOPEFULLY


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> It should be here by 2020, HOPEFULLY


Nooooo, the "pros" only need it in 2021.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

They have the Finalmouse 2016 listing up on Amazon now, should very very very soon tht we get info.


----------



## Deadeye

That Finalmouse 2016 is for old 2015, i have this feeling they just going to keep upping the year for same model so it wont look that it's out of date.


----------



## alphabet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> They have the Finalmouse 2016 listing up on Amazon now, should very very very soon tht we get info.


Yeah, it's been up for weeks..
Glad they posted an update on twitter
Quote:


> Finalmouse
> ‏@finalmouse
> Alot of demand surrounding the 2016 line and availability. Launch event & unveiling will be any day now alongside availability! Hang tight!


I've been waiting since last month to see when they would address inventory for the FM2015 or the 2016 they listed.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadeye*
> 
> That Finalmouse 2016 is for old 2015, i have this feeling they just going to keep upping the year for same model so it wont look that it's out of date.


I would hope they improve and address the issues they got hammered for across this forum.


----------



## a_ak57

Using the year for one of your models seems silly anyway. I could see it back when they just had the one mouse and it was actually the final mouse you'd ever need that might gets updates







but now it's just weird and inadvertently pokes fun at their own name.


----------



## aayman_farzand

^It's less silly than something like Daedalus Spectrum Prime Squared.

I cannot believe they haven't announced anything yet. If they are close to release, they need to use this time to start building hype.


----------



## pixie99

Frankly I'm losing steam for the hype. More and more alternatives are popping out each day with 3310 sensors.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

And at a lower price point


----------



## Deadeye

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> Frankly I'm losing steam for the hype. More and more alternatives are popping out each day with 3310 sensors.


To be honest same here, i'm getting used to what i use now so don't see a point on getting this mouse.


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> ^It's less silly than something like Daedalus Spectrum Prime Squared.
> 
> I cannot believe they haven't announced anything yet. If they are close to release, they need to use this time to start building hype.


Nah man calling something "the final mouse" is just plain wrong (specially when it can't even do 1000Hz). No matter how nonsensical and bloated your mouse name might be, "Final mouse" is plain stupid and in bad taste.
If someone where to walk up to me and say "this is the final mouse" I'd just laugh at his face, not even look at the mouse and never take him seriously again.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Nah man calling something "the final mouse" is just plain wrong (specially when it can't even do 1000Hz). No matter how nonsensical and bloated your mouse name might be, "Final mouse" is plain stupid and in bad taste.
> If someone where to walk up to me and say "this is the final mouse" I'd just laugh at his face, not even look at the mouse and never take him seriously again.


To be honest, since I got my replacement final mouse, I've not had one issue with it what so ever. Granted, I am waiting for the new release in 2016 as I'm hoping for a few better features, e.g. rubber grips, better side buttons etc, but I'm not going to lie, I think the FM is one of the best mice out there on the market today.

I came from using a Zowie FK1 for a very long time and I just cannot go back to that mouse now. I've used countless mice over the years, I've gone from a Logitech G500 to a G9X to a Feenix Nascita to a Zowie EC2 Evo to a FK1 and now to a Finalmouse and in all fairness? I would choose the FM over them every day of the week to be honest with you.

But I guess it's just not for everybody?


----------



## the1freeMan

^ I'm sure there are people who enjoy it, I just find the name of the... whole company







... of very bad taste. But I guess what makes me cringe is what sells these days, they might have gone unnoticed without such a pretentious name.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Nah man calling something "the final mouse" is just plain wrong (specially when it can't even do 1000Hz). No matter how nonsensical and bloated your mouse name might be, "Final mouse" is plain stupid and in bad taste.
> If someone where to walk up to me and say "this is the final mouse" I'd just laugh at his face, not even look at the mouse and never take him seriously again.


yea the thing is that nobody cares. Fanboys will still buy it and everyone who believes that csgo is the FPS game that requires the most amount of skill to compete. Those kind of people will buy finalmouse no matter what it is called.


----------



## Deadeye

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> yea the thing is that nobody cares. Fanboys will still buy it and everyone who believes that csgo is the FPS game that requires the most amount of skill to compete. Those kind of people will buy finalmouse no matter what it is called.


My opinion it's all marketing.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> csgo is the FPS game that requires the most amount of skill to compete


Out of curiosity, what FPS game do you think requires more 'skill' to compete?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Out of curiosity, what FPS game do you think requires more 'skill' to compete?


Knew someone would start on that. Quake is one example.. or any game that has actually accurate weapons. Not hating on csgo but all the blind hype comes from the csgo community and people talking about how amazing their aim is with it, who still suck.


----------



## kyotkyotkyot




----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Nah man calling something "the final mouse" is just plain wrong (specially when it can't even do 1000Hz). No matter how nonsensical and bloated your mouse name might be, "Final mouse" is plain stupid and in bad taste.
> If someone where to walk up to me and say "this is the final mouse" I'd just laugh at his face, not even look at the mouse and never take him seriously again.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Knew someone would start on that. Quake is one example.. or any game that has actually accurate weapons. Not hating on csgo but all the blind hype comes from the csgo community and people talking about how amazing their aim is with it, who still suck.


The problem isn't the "accurate weapons", but the RNG in the rifles. I'm tired of not getting headshots while aiming exactly at someone's head, but getting a headshot aiming next to it.
It's the most competitive game that we have atm with an active and big community? Yes.
Is it really competitive? No, since Valve doesn't seem to care too much about the competitive community, keeping RNG on the assault rifles, keeping pistols that instakills you with a headshot, adding skins and making ******ed changes to the game that no one wanted.


----------



## Pa12a

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> The problem isn't the "accurate weapons", but the RNG in the rifles. I'm tired of not getting headshots while aiming exactly at someone's head, but getting a headshot aiming next to it.
> It's the most competitive game that we have atm with an active and big community? Yes.
> Is it really competitive? No, since Valve doesn't seem to care too much about the competitive community, keeping RNG on the assault rifles, keeping pistols that instakills you with a headshot, adding skins and making ******ed changes to the game that no one wanted.


That is pretty much the problem with CS right now...

The recovery time that got reverted would've made sense if it wasn't for the RNG, it would actually make the SG/AUG a selling point if they were $100 cheaper and had the scope reverted to the old one for earlier/older players if the recovery time made a difference between the SG/AUG and AK/M4...

A lot of people talk about laser guns without RNG but in the end it boils down to gun control/weapon mechanics that make a difference in this.


----------



## trism

CS:GO still biases the shots to the center and the first shot accuracy is higher than in 1.6. From pit to goose in dust2 long you'll hit a middle of the head -aimed headshot 27-30% of the time with the AK47 and a bit more often with the M4 variants. You miss *significantly* more often the further your crosshair is from the middle of the head hitbox. I don't think this is a bad thing since it forces more risk-reward calculations while playing and the game would be extremely stale if the first shot didn't have accuracy loss at all. If you want to hit the head from that range 100% of the time, buy SG, AUG or AWP.


----------



## Atavax

For a pc shooter, aiming should be rewarding. For aiming to be rewarding, there has to be shots that are difficult and are landed because you are good, not because of chance. CS and most modern military shooters accept that aiming for the head with a hit scan or near hitscan weapon isn't difficult enough to be rewarding and rely on inaccuracy making the headshots rare enough to be rewarding. But because whether you land a headshot or not mostly a matter of spread, I don't find it very rewarding at all. I rather use a weapon like a rocket launcher, where a direct hit can be challenging because you need to correctly read where the player will be, so its not some random spread deciding you land, but if you are reading the other player's mind correctly.

I think the key is to design the weapons with a high range of success. This leads to weaker players still being able to use the weapons while giving strong players a lot of room for improvement. For example, if I were to design a primary weapon for a shooter to revolve around, it would be a triple barrel grenade launcher (vertically stacked), where the grenades will explode on impact of the player or bounce on a wall no more then 1 time before exploding on the 2nd contact with a surface. With a clip similar to shootmania's rocketlauncher's clip, basically fairly fast rate with a small clip. Firing in an arch is a bit more difficult than a straight line, but a spread, like 3 vertical projectiles, makes it easier for weaker players to land at least 1, while its much more difficult for a pro to land all 3, than a single 1 if it only fired 1 at a time. So thats one way which it has a range of success. The 2nd way, is obviously splash damage, it allows weaker players that miss shots to still be able to land some damage. I like a single bounce off walls before explosion because it allows for bank shots, while still allowing weaker players to partially rely on splash damage to deal damage. 3rd, the high rate of fire challenges you to make more than 1 consecutive shot. So like an awp, you land 1 shot and you couldn't improve 100% or nothing. A high fire rate challenges people to make many good shots in a row, it is how many hits did you land, not did you make that 1 shot or not. A relatively small clip size with large or infinite ammo pool challenges strong players with resource management with the clip without forcing weaker players to run around without any ammo because they inherently have a lower accuracy and will use more ammo than better players.


----------



## Ino.

I found the shooting mechanics in BC2 to be rewarding, very low damage weapons, rewarding consecutive hits and head shots a lot. Hearing the "clink" sounds for consecutive head shots rewarded with a quick kill was a very nice thing.

Not saying the mechanic was perfect, but I much prefer that to the CS way, where a single "lucky" spread can kill you.


----------



## Sencha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I found the shooting mechanics in BC2 to be rewarding, very low damage weapons, rewarding consecutive hits and head shots a lot. Hearing the "clink" sounds for consecutive head shots rewarded with a quick kill was a very nice thing.
> 
> Not saying the mechanic was perfect, but I much prefer that to the CS way, where a single "lucky" spread can kill you.


+1 100% agree.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I found the shooting mechanics in BC2 to be rewarding, very low damage weapons, rewarding consecutive hits and head shots a lot. Hearing the "clink" sounds for consecutive head shots rewarded with a quick kill was a very nice thing.
> 
> Not saying the mechanic was perfect, but I much prefer that to the CS way, where a single "lucky" spread can kill you.


Dirty Bomb is similar, takes two or three headshots to get a frag, *very* different TTKs (time to kill) between the games. To each their own, but I wouldn't consider CS "lucky". First shot/tapping/burst fire is very accurate, and a high time to kill means more emphasis on reaction times and headshot accuracy. If you got fragged from someone spraying and you didn't kill him, you were either close enough to warrant spraying, and/or not fast/accurate enough to kill him, aka you're bad. Put it simply, very good aim (fast reaction, stable tracking, very accurate) nets you the best result in CS. Even spraying can be controlled very well if practiced a lot, pros prove that. Honestly CS is easy when you have aim and practice things like hs with pistol + good positioning


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Dirty Bomb is run by Nexchong so automatically bad netcode.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> Honestly CS is easy when you have aim and practice things like hs with pistol + good positioning


Being a "die-hard" player myself I can agree and add that you've forgot movement.At a higher to pro level of CS movement is indirectly related to shooting.Strafe-peeking aka sidesteping, "jiggle" peeking, pre-strafing corners combined with a quick sidestep + shooting/taping can and will yield kills.Combine this with positional awareness and "jiggle" pre-strafing a corner and pre-firing a tight angle with a deagle or an ak is very satisfying


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Being a "die-hard" player myself I can agree and add that you've forgot movement.At a higher to pro level of CS movement is indirectly related to shooting.Strafe-peeking aka sidesteping, "jiggle" peeking, pre-strafing corners combined with a quick sidestep + shooting/taping can and will yield kills.Combine this with positional awareness and "jiggle" pre-strafing a corner and pre-firing a tight angle with a deagle or an ak is very satisfying


true, good point. your gameplay options improve tenfold when you find out you can do things like peek and fire quickly and accurately
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Dirty Bomb is run by Nexchong so automatically bad netcode.


nexon is just the publisher, netcode seemed fine but nexon would have nothing to do with it


----------



## qsxcv

cs is based on luck. it's just that the better you are, the luckier you get


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

I feel like in the same way Google adds a [SOLVED] in front of queries where an answer has been found this thread needs a [DF].


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> Dirty Bomb is similar, takes two or three headshots to get a frag, *very* different TTKs (time to kill) between the games. To each their own, but I wouldn't consider CS "lucky". First shot/tapping/burst fire is very accurate, and a high time to kill means more emphasis on reaction times and headshot accuracy. If you got fragged from someone spraying and you didn't kill him, you were either close enough to warrant spraying, and/or not fast/accurate enough to kill him, aka you're bad. Put it simply, very good aim (fast reaction, stable tracking, very accurate) nets you the best result in CS. Even spraying can be controlled very well if practiced a lot, pros prove that. Honestly CS is easy when you have aim and practice things like hs with pistol + good positioning


I didn't mean to say that you need to be lucky in CS to hit, it's just that you can get killed by a lucky HS whereas in games without instakill HS this isn't as much of an issue. CS is fine really, just not my cup of tea.


----------



## popups

It appears I will be receiving my Intellimouse Optical and Wheel Mouse Optical before the symmetrical Final Mouse is announced!


----------



## thatgold

I contacted FM support about when they are releasing the ambi, here's a quote of what they sent back to me.

"The FinalMouse recently went out of stock due to extremely high demand. We are working to fullfill this demand with higher inventory levels. We expect inventory of the updated 2016 FinalMouse Ergonomic to be available within the next week. The Finalmouse Ambidextrous will be available in late January followed by the Scream One Edition in February. We greatly appreciate your patience in this matter.

Thanks,
FinalMouse Support"


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> I contacted FM support about when they are releasing the ambi, here's a quote of what they sent back to me.
> 
> "The FinalMouse recently went out of stock due to extremely high demand. We are working to fullfill this demand with higher inventory levels. We expect inventory of the updated 2016 FinalMouse Ergonomic to be available within the next week. The Finalmouse Ambidextrous will be available in late January followed by the Scream One Edition in February. We greatly appreciate your patience in this matter.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support"


Great, thanks for sharing this.


----------



## hasukka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> I contacted FM support about when they are releasing the ambi, here's a quote of what they sent back to me.
> 
> "The FinalMouse recently went out of stock due to extremely high demand. We are working to fullfill this demand with higher inventory levels. We expect inventory of the updated 2016 FinalMouse Ergonomic to be available within the next week. The Finalmouse Ambidextrous will be available in late January followed by the Scream One Edition in February. We greatly appreciate your patience in this matter.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support"


Thanks a lot for postin this. I've been having wrist pains with my ZA12 and I was waiting to buy the FinalMouse Ambi/ScreamOne. Looks like I will be taking out my DA Chroma to relieve the wrist pain until the FM release.


----------



## reqq

Got wristpain as well with my mionix mice, come to the conclusion thats its the profile hegiht of 42-43 mm. Whats the dimension of this ambi version?


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Ordered a MS Wheelmouse 1.1a pending Finalmouse's new offerings . It's not a fake afaik but we'll see.


Off topic I know lol but my 1.1a should be here from newegg today. Out of curiosity where did you find them?

edit: I received a 2012 re-make (no OEM or 1.1a on bottom).
My computer did register a microsoft wheel mouse but sent it back.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4RE3038710


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> cs is based on luck. it's just that the better you are, the luckier you get


they never actually get better, they just play enough to please the RNG gods, who reward them with better odds


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> I contacted FM support about when they are releasing the ambi, here's a quote of what they sent back to me.
> 
> "The FinalMouse recently went out of stock due to extremely high demand. We are working to fullfill this demand with higher inventory levels. We expect inventory of the updated 2016 FinalMouse Ergonomic to be available within the next week. The Finalmouse Ambidextrous will be available in late January followed by the Scream One Edition in February. We greatly appreciate your patience in this matter.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support"


THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Rather than to hype up their new products needlessly, they should have said this to manage expectations. Sigh. If they want to keep the hype up, they could really just post pictures of testing in progress, packaging ideas and general behind the scenes stuff on the actual product. Not modelling photos or lame events that don't even showcase their mouse.

Hoping the new ambi would come out by the new year was probably my own wishful thinking


----------



## invena

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *thatgold*
> 
> I contacted FM support about when they are releasing the ambi, here's a quote of what they sent back to me.
> 
> "The FinalMouse recently went out of stock due to extremely high demand. We are working to fullfill this demand with higher inventory levels. We expect inventory of the updated 2016 FinalMouse Ergonomic to be available within the next week. The Finalmouse Ambidextrous will be available in late January followed by the Scream One Edition in February. We greatly appreciate your patience in this matter.
> 
> Thanks,
> FinalMouse Support"
> 
> 
> 
> THANK YOU SO MUCH!
> 
> Rather than to hype up their new products needlessly, they should have said this to manage expectations. Sigh. If they want to keep the hype up, they could really just post pictures of testing in progress, packaging ideas and general behind the scenes stuff on the actual product. Not modelling photos or lame events that don't even showcase their mouse.
> 
> Hoping the new ambi would come out by the new year was probably my own wishful thinking
Click to expand...





God Damn Jan & Feb. My hand hurts from using this g303 for the 3366. Dear god, some company please release an alternative soon!


----------



## Junki3e

Is anyone experincing teacking issues with their FM? Apparently if I lift my FM up and put it back down onto the pad, it causes me to look upwards in game time to time and get me killed:/


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Junki3e*
> 
> Is anyone experincing teacking issues with their FM? Apparently if I lift my FM up and put it back down onto the pad, it causes me to look upwards in game time to time and get me killed:/


auto tuning. u cant fix it


----------



## wareya

could just be malfunctioning because it thinks it's tracking at extremely high speeds but it's just liftoff blur


----------



## micehunter

I wish that these new mice have the 3366 sensor in them. And I hope that they will not have the same issues from the first one.


----------



## TburdzZ

May I ask why everyone is so obsessed over the 3366 I mean sure it's the best sensor but I have no problem with the 3310. I was in a Csgo match last night and a guy on the other team was saying his zowie ec a2 was an imprecise pos and that he was getting his g502 with a half decent sensor the ec 2 a uses 3310 and g502 3366. I mean *** I just don't get it can someone explain the difference that matter between the 2 sensors and if it REALLY matters

Aside from that when is this fm 2016 and " the scream one" coming out I got a zowie fk2 earlier this month and when I try to use my fm 2015 it just doesn't work fm u have made me wait to long and I don't think I'm getting rid of my fk2 so it looks like me and a few others will not be buying the new fm unless u can get ur crap together.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *micehunter*
> 
> I wish that these new mice have the 3366 sensor in them. And I hope that they will not have the same issues from the first one.


Possible, but rather unlikely.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> May I ask why everyone is so obsessed over the 3366 I mean sure it's the best sensor but I have no problem with the 3310. I was in a Csgo match last night and a guy on the other team was saying his zowie ec a2 was an imprecise pos and that he was getting his g502 with a half decent sensor the ec 2 a uses 3310 and g502 3366. I mean *** I just don't get it can someone explain the difference that matter between the 2 sensors and if it REALLY matters
> 
> Aside from that when is this fm 2016 and " the scream one" coming out I got a zowie fk2 earlier this month and when I try to use my fm 2015 it just doesn't work fm u have made me wait to long and I don't think I'm getting rid of my fk2 so it looks like me and a few others will not be buying the new fm unless u can get ur crap together.


Sound like that guy was just not a precise player & was just complaining to try & make an excuse for how bad he was playing.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> May I ask why everyone is so obsessed over the 3366 I mean sure it's the best sensor but I have no problem with the 3310. I was in a Csgo match last night and a guy on the other team was saying his zowie ec a2 was an imprecise pos and that he was getting his g502 with a half decent sensor the ec 2 a uses 3310 and g502 3366. I mean *** I just don't get it can someone explain the difference that matter between the 2 sensors and if it REALLY matters


Rofl, he's a bad player that's all. I'm using an EC2-A too and I've got absolutely no problems with it. GL to him playing with a G502 tho, a brick that's got no proper grip on it if you're a palmer.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Rofl, he's a bad player that's all. I'm using an EC2-A too and I've got absolutely no problems with it. GL to him playing with a G502 tho, a brick that's got no proper grip on it if you're a palmer.


Aside from that I agree with you on the bad player part, when my mate lent me his g502 to try out even though it felt somewhat too narrow especialy for ring and pinkey fingers my deagle flicks and snaps straight on the head were never so good on the first match I used it.Maybe a placebo maybe the sensor (my old mouse was a a3050).If that wasnt a placebo my point is a decent sensor may aid in performance ,especialy if you move from a3050







.
(If this changes my point I'm GE/~12rws


----------



## daviddave1

Hi all,

I registered to ask this question.

I don't have a real preference for claw of palm grip. i have 20 cm hands I play Quake live and a bit of Starcraft2 and Diablo 3.

I can't make up my mind if I am gonna buy the FK1 mouse or the EC1-A.

Can u guys point me a little in the right direction?

I have a 2013 FK mouse now. Before that the Death Adder. I played with the Death Adder a bit again to get a feel of the size of the EC1-A. I like the FK 2013 better. But its to small! So I am still confused! Or shall I buy a ZA11 ?

Every answer is appreciated. Thank you!


----------



## invena

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daviddave1*
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I registered to ask this question.
> 
> I don't have a real preference for claw of palm grip. i have 20 cm hands I play Quake live and a bit of Starcraft2 and Diablo 3.
> 
> I can't make up my mind if I am gonna buy the FK1 mouse or the EC1-A.
> 
> Can u guys point me a little in the right direction?
> 
> I have a 2013 FK mouse now. Before that the Death Adder. I played with the Death Adder a bit again to get a feel of the size of the EC1-A. I like the FK 2013 better. But its to small! So I am still confused! Or shall I buy a ZA11 ?
> 
> Every answer is appreciated. Thank you!






Make your own thread,you will get way more feedback (personally think the ZA12 though).


----------



## Sencha

Yes please. And no need to spam the same question in 5 threads.


----------



## daviddave1

Thank you guys! I will. Sorry for the spam!


----------



## Sencha

No worries just you'll get a better answer in your own thread. Good luck


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello all,

Just a quick update. I have a lot more info now so this should clarify a lot of questions. The 2016 tournament ambi and classic ergo are being released and unveiled tonight. The tournament ambi Amazon page is actually already up before the new site is so if you care for pictures before everyone else you can find those...

The scream one will be coming a few weeks from now and will be equipped in two models. A 3310 version and a 3360 version which uses a new controller and custom implementation without the low pass filter. This will be unveiled in a couple weeks. 3360 weight is a bit heavier at 81-82 ish grams prewiring.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## paradoxals

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Just a quick update. I have a lot more info now so this should clarify a lot of questions. The 2016 tournament ambi and classic ergo are being released and unveiled tonight. The tournament ambi Amazon page is actually already up before the new site is so if you care for pictures before everyone else you can find those...
> 
> The scream one will be coming a few weeks from now and will be equipped in two models. A 3310 version and a 3360 version which uses a new controller and custom implementation without the low pass filter. This will be unveiled in a couple weeks. 3360 weight is a bit heavier at 81-82 ish grams prewiring.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


What changes are coming to the ergo 2016 version?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Ergo version has new tooling that modified upper shell in an effort to improve the clicks including bigger changes to the plungers. There is still work to do before the ergo clicks feel as great as the ambi currently does with clicks in my opinion. We decided to forgo the side button change until a later 2016 batch due to delays and involvement in the tournament ambi and scream one 3360 variant.


----------



## Alya

The Finalmouse Ambidextrous isn't even ambidextrous, there's buttons on one side but not on the other. it's just an ambi shape. Lol.


----------



## zeflow

Still using the same 3310 implementation for 2016 mice?


----------



## SeanyC

Thanks for the update Jude.

Looks like the Tourney Ambi will use the 3310
http://amzn.com/B01A8MAPY0


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> Oh. My. God.
> 
> Christmas just came late for a whole lot of nerds.
> 
> Cannot wait to try the ambi (****, might even just buy the 2016 ergo too) and see how the ScreaM mouse goes with the 3360. I trust that you guys at FinalMouse will not fail us on the shape; that is what most of us are worried about with the 3360 now being public, the shapes and weights; SS has already screwed up with the Rival 700.


Heh. Perfection is very hard to achieve and we always have things to improve with but I can say that in terms of shape the ambi (in my opinion) is a nearly perfect shape for what we were envisioning... we couldn't be happier with it. The scream one will be using the ambi shape so no worries with the 3360. I think we will be using this ambi shape for a long time to come


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Ergo version has new tooling that modified upper shell in an effort to improve the clicks including bigger changes to the plungers. There is still work to do before the ergo clicks feel as great as the ambi currently does with clicks in my opinion. We decided to forgo the side button change until a later 2016 batch due to delays and involvement in the tournament ambi and scream one 3360 variant.


Wheel Mouse Optical Usurper?


----------



## kkim

Is the ergo release the same as the 2015? No changes?


----------



## detto87

I tried SO many ambi mice that look almost the same as the WMO shape
- EC2
- Xai/Sensei
- Kana (v2)
- ZA12
- Edge 101
- FK2 & FK1
...
and they ALL feel too different from the WMO.

Can you give some exact measurements and maybe comparison with the WMO? Or tell us what your goals were for the ambi shape?

To me it (FinalMouse ambi) loooks like a child of FK1 and WMO.


----------



## zeflow

)[/quote]
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Heh. Perfection is very hard to achieve and we always have things to improve with but I can say that in terms of shape the ambi (in my opinion) is a nearly perfect shape for what we were envisioning... we couldn't be happier with it. The scream one will be using the ambi shape so no worries with the 3360. I think we will be using this ambi shape for a long time to come


The screamone also uses the ambi shape? What's the difference between the screamone and ambi?


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Heh. Perfection is very hard to achieve and we always have things to improve with but I can say that in terms of shape the ambi (in my opinion) is a nearly perfect shape for what we were envisioning... we couldn't be happier with it. The scream one will be using the ambi shape so no worries with the 3360. I think we will be using this ambi shape for a long time to come


You guys are bloody legends. I was hesitant to purchase a 2015 ergo FM, but you can be damned sure I will be buying at least one of the new ones (most likely ScreaM 3360 ambi) even know it will cost me around $120 to get it here to Australia.

Btw, you guys ever gonna close a deal with an Australian PC store or anything to get them over here? Or considered opening an eBay store or something with cheap shipping? I know people would happily pay $80-90 AUD to get one of those ScreaM 3360 mice here in Australia. I'm quite active and known as the mouse guru on the gaming forums here too and I'd happily spread the word for you man.


----------



## coolwert

will the finalmouse ambi and screamone feature 1000hz polling rate ?
very picky about that
also gonna wait for the reviews and see how you guys handle the mcu before i buy one


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

difference is Probably mainly the 3360 sensor


----------



## kkim

New side buttons or side material for the ergo?


----------



## coolwert

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> difference is Probably mainly the 3360 sensor


well the screamone will also have a 3310 version
maybe its just the tournament ambi with a big fat scream signature on the shell


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coolwert*
> 
> well the screamone will also have a 3310 version
> maybe its just the tournament ambi with a big fat scream signature on the shell


We shall seeeeee sooon, the 3360 will be getting snatched, along with the ambi release tonight.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Does this mean the scream one will have no smoothing?!?!?!?!?


----------



## Skyval

Wow, so you're making what looks like a decent shape with low-ish weight and a 3360. Way to get my interest back up. I still want 1000Hz, though. I still think simple, unobtrusive, optional software would be great too.

Can you address claims people have made about the FM's advertised weight (74g) being inaccurate? About how much does the body weigh with the cable cut off at the exit from the mouse? Do you know about how much the Ambi versions will weigh like this? For the 3360, it'd be more than the ~81g you mentioned, right?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I tried SO many ambi mice that look almost the same as the WMO shape
> - EC2
> - Xai/Sensei
> - Kana (v2)
> - ZA12
> - Edge 101
> - FK2 & FK1
> ...
> and they ALL feel too different from the WMO.


I too have tried a couple mice that I thought looked similar to the WMO, and I agree. For me part of it is its "rounded edges" My hands are big enough that, on most mice, my fingers rest on the front edge, which is uncomfortable. But on the WMO, there is no hard edge on the front. I usually have to put three fingers on top of mice. But on the WMO, I put my ring finger on the rounded part, which is like it being on the side, right above my pinky. Very comfy. Of course it also just has good overall dimensions, straight sides, etc. IMO it makes the mouse feel great in larger and smaller hands alike.

Anyone else think this?


----------



## Fragil1ty

So does anyone know what the differences are between the ambi and ergo?

I would imagine that the Ambi (Ambidextrous) is for both left and right handed users and the Ergo (Ergonomic) would be soley for right handed users who would like a Ergonomic mouse?

Is that about right?

If so, does anyone have any images from the Ergo mouse? I don't like Ambi mice, they don't fit in my hand as well. I just wanted an update FM2015 (Rubber grips, better side buttons, that's it).

>.>


----------



## equlix

3.99 for one day shipping. Worth. January 12th can't get here fast enough


----------



## pixie99

What are the dimensions for the ambi shape?


----------



## shox3h

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> So does anyone know what the differences are between the ambi and ergo?
> 
> I would imagine that the Ambi (Ambidextrous) is for both left and right handed users and the Ergo (Ergonomic) would be soley for right handed users who would like a Ergonomic mouse?
> 
> Is that about right?


Ye man you would think that the ambi is for both left handed and right handed except for the fact that it only has buttons on one side so in reality this is a right handed only mouse with an "ambi" shell, nice marketing.

As always left handers being shafted in the mouse market, unless you enjoy twisting your ring finger.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Does this mean the scream one will have no smoothing?!?!?!?!?


well there's a million other things that can be screwd up depending on which factory is writing the firmware this time


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shox3h*
> 
> Ye man you would think that the ambi is for both left handed and right handed except for the fact that it only has buttons on one side so in reality this is a right handed only mouse with an "ambi" shell, nice marketing.
> 
> As always left handers being shafted in the mouse market, unless you enjoy twisting your ring finger.


It's a shame too because I was excited to see another fully ambidextrous mouse but it's just ambi shaped.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> The Finalmouse Ambidextrous isn't even ambidextrous, there's buttons on one side but not on the other. it's just an ambi shape. Lol.


That's why I have been calling it the symmetrical FinalMouse.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Heh. Perfection is very hard to achieve and we always have things to improve with but I can say that in terms of shape the ambi (in my opinion) is a nearly perfect shape for what we were envisioning... we couldn't be happier with it. The scream one will be using the ambi shape so no worries with the 3360. I think we will be using this ambi shape for a long time to come


Based off the pictures, I think there could be some improvements. If I buy one I will let you know what I think.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Wheel Mouse Optical Usurper?


Very different designs.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> I tried SO many ambi mice that look almost the same as the WMO shape
> - EC2
> - Xai/Sensei
> - Kana (v2)
> - ZA12
> - Edge 101
> - FK2 & FK1
> ...
> and they ALL feel too different from the WMO.
> 
> Can you give some exact measurements and maybe comparison with the WMO? Or tell us what your goals were for the ambi shape?
> 
> To me it (FinalMouse ambi) loooks like a child of FK1 and WMO.


In hand this feels very similar to the WMO.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> It's a shame too because I was excited to see another fully ambidextrous mouse but it's just ambi shaped.


My friend who's left handed started using his right hand for his mouse instead for that reason. Or when holding his rackets.







He's actually gotten... pretty ambidextrous.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> It's a shame too because I was excited to see another fully ambidextrous mouse but it's just ambi shaped.


To be fair lots of right handed people prefer ambi shapes and hate ambi mice that have side buttons on the right side. It must really suck not having many mice options for lefties but at the end of the day they would make way more money with this design than a truly ambi design.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> My friend who's left handed started using his right hand for his mouse instead for that reason. Or when holding his rackets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's actually gotten... pretty ambidextrous.


I can do things with my right and left hand, I'm not ambidextrous but with the way things are shaping up, I might as well just start using my right hand at this point as well, I've been thinking about making the switch for a while.

I can understand people not liking buttons on both sides of the mouse, it's just frustrating to not have many options, most of the mice I've used in the past had some right handed ergonomics to them in some way, I even tried fully right handed ergo mice and couldn't really find them comfortable but maybe with some time I will.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> So does anyone know what the differences are between the ambi and ergo?
> 
> I would imagine that the Ambi (Ambidextrous) is for both left and right handed users and the Ergo (Ergonomic) would be soley for right handed users who would like a Ergonomic mouse?
> 
> Is that about right?
> 
> If so, does anyone have any images from the Ergo mouse? I don't like Ambi mice, they don't fit in my hand as well. I just wanted an update FM2015 (Rubber grips, better side buttons, that's it).
> 
> >.>


Plenty of pictures exist lf the Ergo mouse, it isn't new. It's been out over a year, they are just restocking it now.


----------



## popups

It looks like a FK, Sensei and DeathAdder had a baby. I'm not sure that is a good thing.

Quote:


> Hello all,
> 
> Just a quick update. I have a lot more info now so this should clarify a lot of questions. The 2016 tournament ambi and classic ergo are being released and unveiled tonight. The tournament ambi Amazon page is actually already up before the new site is so if you care for pictures before everyone else you can find those...
> 
> The scream one will be coming a few weeks from now and will be equipped in two models. A 3310 version and a 3360 version which uses a new controller and custom implementation without the low pass filter. This will be unveiled in a couple weeks. 3360 weight is a bit heavier at 81-82 ish grams prewiring.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


What are the switches and encoder for the 3360 variant? Braided cable or non braided?


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skyval*
> 
> For me part of it is its "rounded edges" My hands are big enough that, on most mice, my fingers rest on the front edge, which is uncomfortable. But on the WMO, there is no hard edge on the front. I usually have to put three fingers on top of mice. But on the WMO, I put my ring finger on the rounded part, which is like it being on the side, right above my pinky. Very comfy. Of course it also just has good overall dimensions, straight sides, etc. IMO it makes the mouse feel great in larger and smaller hands alike.


Straight sides is a big plus of the WMO I think. The highest measurement of the WMO is in the middle which is also one factor to consider. And then I believe the overall width is very good, almost perfect.

For comparison, the Sensei/Xai is too low in the front and the ass doesn't fit as snugly as the WMO's.
The Hori Edge is too wide in the front which is why I grip it in the more middle area and loose some ass contact (which is a bit too wide too). It's all very subtle differences, but all combined make a kinda huge difference.

The symmetrical Finalmouse looks like it has mostly straight sides which would be good.
The highest point also seems to be in the middle of the mouse. Also good.
Now the overall measurements have to be good too, like overall width, most importantly probably.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Heh. Perfection is very hard to achieve and we always have things to improve with but I can say that in terms of shape the ambi (in my opinion) is a nearly perfect shape for what we were envisioning... we couldn't be happier with it. The scream one will be using the ambi shape so no worries with the 3360. I think we will be using this ambi shape for a long time to come


Are you guys going to further push development to strip more weight on the mouse? Its a huge brand statement to have all your mice under 80g.

I suspect it can be perfected more, maybe in line of the Ventus







? The palm rest area plate looks detachable (its separate from the buttons) and it would be nice if that came in different versions / materials and with differing heights. And screws that are not placed under mouse feet to make swapping a breeze.

You guys are pushing perfection so why not go all the way


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> Are you guys going to further push development to strip more weight on the mouse? Its a huge brand statement to have all your mice under 80g.
> 
> I suspect it can be perfected more, maybe in line of the Ventus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ? The palm rest area plate looks detachable (its separate from the buttons) and it would be nice if that came in different versions / materials and with differing heights. And screws that are not placed under mouse feet to make swapping a breeze.
> 
> You guys are pushing perfection so why not go all the way


Pushing perfection but limited to 500Hz, I smell something around here, the kind of smelly smell that smells smelly.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> I can do things with my right and left hand, I'm not ambidextrous but with the way things are shaping up, I might as well just start using my right hand at this point as well, I've been thinking about making the switch for a while.
> 
> I can understand people not liking buttons on both sides of the mouse, it's just frustrating to not have many options, most of the mice I've used in the past had some right handed ergonomics to them in some way, I even tried fully right handed ergo mice and couldn't really find them comfortable but maybe with some time I will.


He tells me the same. Its a common southpaw issue I guess. Anyways the side buttons on both sides are not an issue to me at least, since I usually remove the excess ones like on my EVGA X5.

Perhaps their mouse shell can be designed to accommodate either right or left sided buttons, with rubber caps to cover up none used holes? Its simply making a mirror image on the other side. So they need not change the PCB to incorporate extra switches and weight.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Pushing perfection but limited to 500Hz, I smell something around here, the kind of smelly smell that smells smelly.


I suspect the reason for that is that their 1000hz implementation has bugs - my guess is that they left it out till some future date where it becomes an absolute meta.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Straight sides is a big plus of the WMO I think. The highest measurement of the WMO is in the middle which is also one factor to consider. And then I believe the overall width is very good, almost perfect.
> 
> For comparison, the Sensei/Xai is too low in the front and the ass doesn't fit as snugly as the WMO's.
> The Hori Edge is too wide in the front which is why I grip it in the more middle area and loose some ass contact (which is a bit too wide too). It's all very subtle differences, but all combined make a kinda huge difference.
> 
> The symmetrical Finalmouse looks like it has mostly straight sides which would be good.
> The highest point also seems to be in the middle of the mouse. Also good.
> Now the overall measurements have to be good too, like overall width, most importantly probably.


Still waiting for Jude to share the dimensions with us. You are right that straight sides are a plus, totally agree!


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> He tells me the same. Its a common southpaw issue I guess. Anyways the side buttons on both sides are not an issue to me at least, since I usually remove the excess ones.
> 
> Perhaps their mouse shell can be designed to accommodate either right or left sided buttons, with rubber caps to cover up none used holes? Its simply making a mirror image on the other side. So they need not change the PCB to incorporate extra switches and weight.


Yeah, I'm kind of disheartened with looking at new "ambidextrous" mice coming out these days because it never really caters to people who are left handed, Razer has a left handed DA but...no, thanks. The Hori Edge is fine as far as I'm concerned, I remember Roccat doing something like that where they had a detachable shell and it came with siding which you could replace on one side or the other, it also had an ambi shape so it would cater to both audiences.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> I suspect the reason for that is that their 1000hz implementation has bugs - my guess is that they left it out till some future date where it becomes an absolute meta.


Possibly and I have no problem with 500Hz at all, in fact, I use it, but they're severely limiting their market by not supporting 1000Hz, I just think that in order to actually "perfect' your mouse you should be aiming for the widest range of customers possible and some people wont buy without it being 1000Hz.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

The scream one 3360 is fixed 1000hz. All the scream ones have Japanese alps encoders and different omrons.

We didn't expect so much confusion wth the "ambi" name for the new model. A lot of people thinking it's meant for left and right handed folks. I think they may end up changing the name last second before launch tonight if this continues.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *detto87*
> 
> Straight sides is a big plus of the WMO I think. The highest measurement of the WMO is in the middle which is also one factor to consider. And then I believe the overall width is very good, almost perfect.
> 
> For comparison, the Sensei/Xai is too low in the front and the ass doesn't fit as snugly as the WMO's.
> The Hori Edge is too wide in the front which is why I grip it in the more middle area and loose some ass contact (which is a bit too wide too). It's all very subtle differences, but all combined make a kinda huge difference.
> 
> The symmetrical Finalmouse looks like it has mostly straight sides which would be good.
> The highest point also seems to be in the middle of the mouse. Also good.
> Now the overall measurements have to be good too, like overall width, most importantly probably.


The WMO (from what I can tell) doesn't truly have straight sides, the sides are slanted by ~1mm and there is a finger groove. The WMO is slightly thinner than the AM. The WMO does have a taller arch than the AM, FK, Xai/Sensei and ZA.

If the AM had three changes to the shape it would be a WMO replacement. Widen the top by ~4mm, recreate the WMO arch from the Zowie logo onward and start the finger groove after the rear mouse foot. The finger groove position change wouldn't be necessary, the other two would be. I was hoping the FK was going to be that, then I was hoping the ZA was.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> Are you guys going to further push development to strip more weight on the mouse? Its a huge brand statement to have all your mice under 80g.
> 
> I suspect it can be perfected more, maybe in line of the Ventus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ? The palm rest area plate looks detachable (its separate from the buttons) and it would be nice if that came in different versions / materials and with differing heights. And screws that are not placed under mouse feet to make swapping a breeze.
> 
> You guys are pushing perfection so why not go all the way


Typically a mouse with side buttons, that is at least ~124mm long, will weigh 80g or more. The WMO is ~124mm and weighs ~80g.


----------



## detto87

The SymmetricalFinalScreamMouse2016


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Possibly and I have no problem with 500Hz at all, in fact, I use it, but they're severely limiting their market by not supporting 1000Hz, I just think that in order to actually "perfect' your mouse you should be aiming for the widest range of customers possible and some people wont buy without it being 1000Hz.


Same here lol. I don't find any difference. But I think having 1000hz is a marketing advantage like how "Lazer mause!" trumps opticals in the mass market. 1000 hz is probably a make or break buying choice for detail oriented FPS players who sweat over every placebo.

I remember the issues though with the first FM that came out so I pray they get the mouse working first at 500hz and fresh out of the box.


----------



## qsxcv

which omrons?

what dpi settings are there? have you guys finally wrapped your heads around the fact that there exists people out there who actually benefit from the finer granularity in dpi adjustments?


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The scream one 3360 is fixed 1000hz. All the scream ones have Japanese alps encoders and different omrons.
> 
> We didn't expect so much confusion wth the "ambi" name for the new model. A lot of people thinking it's meant for left and right handed folks. I think they may end up changing the name last second before launch tonight if this continues.


What are the dimensions?

Also, since the screamone is probably going to be pricier than the ambi, could you guys ship it with replacement mouse feet at least?


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> Same here lol. I don't find any difference. But I think having 1000hz is a marketing advantage like how "Lazer mause!" trumps opticals in the mass market. 1000 hz is probably a make or break buying choice for detail oriented FPS players who sweat over every placebo.
> 
> I remember the issues though with the first FM that came out so I pray they get the mouse working first at 500hz and fresh out of the box.


That's because you won't normally notice the difference between 2ms and 1ms if you're not a superhuman, though some mice do benefit from higher polling rates because it raises their malfunction speed like the MLT04 for example.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> What are the dimensions?
> 
> Also, since the screamone is probably going to be pricier than the ambi, could you guys ship it with replacement mouse feet at least?


What the plans are for mouse feet are what interest me plenty right now.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> That's because you won't normally notice the difference between 2ms and 1ms if you're not a superhuman,


it's kind of like a 120hz vs 144hz thing. yes it's a small difference but why would you use 120hz if you can use 144hz?
Quote:


> though some mice do benefit from higher polling rates because it raises their malfunction speed like the MLT04 for example.


this doesn't affect modern sensors since data is stored as 16bit integers.


----------



## aayman_farzand

So what are you click latencies looking like? And did you guys decide on prices yet?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

The Ergo won't be in stock until the 11th....so i presume when the Ambi version launches tonight it won't be shipping until around the 11th as well. Darn.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> which omrons?
> 
> what dpi settings are there? have you guys finally wrapped your heads around the fact that there exists people out there who actually benefit from the finer granularity in dpi adjustments?


I don't see it beneficial to have more than couple of reasonable dpi steps, you can do adjustments with game settings no difference in performance..


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> it's kind of like a 120hz vs 144hz thing. yes it's a small difference but why would you use 120hz if you can use 144hz?
> this doesn't affect modern sensors since data is stored as 16bit integers.


I remember reading a thread a while back of someone saying that the KPO did do better with a higher polling rate ( source here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1586135/logitech-roccat-razer-gaming-mice/30#post_24752510 ), also, I was pointing out how the Finalmouse only supported 500Hz which lowers the range of consumers, not that you'd notice the difference anyway.


----------



## qsxcv

just ignore all enotus mousetest numbers. e.g. with that definition of "smoothness" you might as well also say that 30fps is smoother than 300fps.


----------



## paradoxals

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> The Ergo won't be in stock until the 11th....so i presume when the Ambi version launches tonight it won't be shipping until around the 11th as well. Darn.


Only the ergo version is available right now on Amazon, and it's listed at 67 dollars (normally 70). The ambi version will be available for purchase later tonight I'm assuming.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> which omrons?
> 
> what dpi settings are there? have you guys finally wrapped your heads around the fact that there exists people out there who actually benefit from the finer granularity in dpi adjustments?


It sounds like they stuck with the same MCU. So there won't be any adjustment/software.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> That's because you won't normally notice the difference between 2ms and 1ms if you're not a superhuman, though some mice do benefit from higher polling rates because it raises their malfunction speed like the MLT04 for example.


The cursor is more fluid when using 1000Hz. It visually appears smoother when moving in-game. That helps those flick shot type of players.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> The Ergo won't be in stock until the 11th....so i presume when the Ambi version launches tonight it won't be shipping until around the 11th as well. Darn.


Zowie Gear has made me start a mouse collection. I have 4 on my desk right now, 4 in their boxes 3 feet away and 2 more next to my bed. I got rid of 3 mice. People are starting to question why I have so many mice and continue to buy more. It's not going to help if I buy a FinalMouse S1.

If I buy a FinalMouse S1 I will have 8 symmetrical mice.


----------



## BlazeGaming

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> Same here lol. I don't find any difference. But I think having 1000hz is a marketing advantage like how "Lazer mause!" trumps opticals in the mass market. 1000 hz is probably a make or break buying choice for detail oriented FPS players who sweat over every placebo.
> 
> I remember the issues though with the first FM that came out so I pray they get the mouse working first at 500hz and fresh out of the box.


Just gonna leave this here, also posted it in another topic, maybe some of you already seen it.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> just ignore all enotus mousetest numbers. e.g. with that definition of "smoothness" you might as well also say that 30fps is smoother than 300fps.


Righto then, thanks for the information, I've never known much about Enotus or whether or not it was accurate so I learned something today.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BlazeGaming*
> 
> Just gonna leave this here, also posted it in another topic, maybe some of you already seen it.


I've seen this a lot before, I was even going to post this in reply to the above, looks like you beat me to it.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Zowie Gear has made me start a mouse collection. I have 4 on my desk right now, 4 in their boxes 3 feet away and 2 more next to my bed. I got rid of 3 mice. People are starting to question why I have so many mice and continue to buy more. It's not going to help if I buy a FinalMouse S1.
> 
> If I buy a FinalMouse S1 I will have 8 symmetrical mice.


The addiction is real


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paradoxals*
> 
> Only the ergo version is available right now on Amazon, and it's listed at 67 dollars (normally 70). The ambi version will be available for purchase later tonight I'm assuming.


Yea i presume the same, purchase is not my issue...i wanna know when it will be sent. Lol
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It sounds like they stuck with the same MCU. So there won't be any adjustment/software.
> The cursor is more fluid when using 1000Hz. It visually appears smoother when moving in-game. That helps those flick shot type of players.
> Zowie Gear has made me start a mouse collection. I have 4 on my desk right now, 4 in their boxes 3 feet away and 2 more next to my bed. I got rid of 3 mice. People are starting to question why I have so many mice and continue to buy more. It's not going to help if I buy a FinalMouse S1.
> 
> If I buy a FinalMouse S1 I will have 8 symmetrical mice.


I had a collection too. I literally just sold all of them besides one. Lol


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The scream one 3360 is fixed 1000hz. All the scream ones have Japanese alps encoders and different omrons.


Oh really???


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The scream one 3360 is fixed 1000hz. All the scream ones have Japanese alps encoders and different omrons.
> 
> We didn't expect so much confusion wth the "ambi" name for the new model. A lot of people thinking it's meant for left and right handed folks. I think they may end up changing the name last second before launch tonight if this continues.


change name to sym or something of the likes then. Also by a few weeks more for the 3360's do you mean like 2 weeks or like 6? Need to know wether or not I should wait.


----------



## grandeuraliass

So is the finalmouse 2016 on amazon for preorder the 3360 version or is it something else?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> The addiction is real


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Yea i presume the same, purchase is not my issue...i wanna know when it will be sent. Lol
> 
> I had a collection too. I literally just sold all of them besides one. Lol


I don't want to get rid of my Diamondback, AM-FG, AM-GS, WMO, IMO and white EC2. I don't use the EC2 or DeathAdder anymore. I keep the EC2 because it's the white EC shell that Zowie will not make again. I bought the AM-GS because the AM was discontinued and I wanted extra parts for my AM-FG.

The FinalMouse S1 might replace my FK, Diamondback and AMs -- at least until BenQ makes a WMO shaped mouse, that's configurable, with side buttons and a 3360. I look at the Microsoft mice as a training tool.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandeuraliass*
> 
> So is the finalmouse 2016 on amazon for preorder the 3360 version or is it something else?


It says in the description that it is currently a 3310 version.

Side note: Guys this is why they never announced why they have so many variations. Because they weren't allowed to announce the 3360.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Also by a few weeks more for the 3360's do you mean like 2 weeks or like 6? Need to know wether or not I should wait.


Likely one batch cycle worth of time. Something like 1-2 months.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Side note: Guys this is why they never announced why they have so many variations. Because they weren't allowed to announce the 3360.


We already knew when Logitech's exclusivity was up and it was already mentioned that the sensor was making its way into other products.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Likely one batch cycle worth of time. Something like 1-2 months.
> We already knew when Logitech's exclusivity was up and it was already mentioned that the sensor was making its way into other products.


Yeah there last batch was like 4 months ago







and they were probably wanting to play it safe and try to not get into trouble which might jeopordize their ability to obatain said 3360s. God my writing is atrocious, it's late.


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The scream one 3360 is fixed 1000hz. All the scream ones have Japanese alps encoders and different omrons.
> 
> We didn't expect so much confusion wth the "ambi" name for the new model. A lot of people thinking it's meant for left and right handed folks. I think they may end up changing the name last second before launch tonight if this continues.


so send back a new new mouse just ordered 1day ago and get delivered tomorrow ?
nah i dont think so ...
but when we can buy the new FM Ambi with 3360 ?
Edit :
btw I'm a IE3.0 lover ... so it's not "my" prefered shape ... but i like to collect mices


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The scream one 3360 is fixed 1000hz. .


Did you overcome your reservations about 1000hz negatively affecting performance or was it just added because of so many requests?


----------



## pgmichael

Wait, the screamOne isn't ergo? Also, can I purchase from amazon.com to Canada? If so, anyone has any ideas of what the cost will be?

So many questions damnit...


----------



## mitavreb

Wanna know the dimension of the scream ambi.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> Did you overcome your reservations about 1000hz negatively affecting performance or was it just added because of so many requests?


Scream said he wants 1000Hz otherwise he will quit playing GO immediately.


----------



## aayman_farzand

So when is this happening? It's past 1130PM EST and I got work in the morning









Only interested in the 3360 S1, is that being shown tonight as well? Is the difference only the sensor since you said it's using the Ambi shell?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pgmichael*
> 
> Wait, the screamOne isn't ergo? Also, can I purchase from amazon.com to Canada? If so, anyone has any ideas of what the cost will be?
> 
> So many questions damnit...


Yes you can purchase from amazon.com to canada in this case, I do it all the time. You can always check and then cancel the order.


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pgmichael*
> 
> Could you give me a rough estimate on what you think the shipping might cost? Also, do you need to pay for customs?


Last I checked with tax all accounted for it was like $115CAD ish. God damn Canadian, dollar I know.


----------



## TburdzZ

All this ambi shape hype... It sort of worries me.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Heh. Perfection is very hard to achieve and we always have things to improve with but I can say that in terms of shape the ambi (in my opinion) is a nearly perfect shape for what we were envisioning... we couldn't be happier with it. The scream one will be using the ambi shape so no worries with the 3360. I think we will be using this ambi shape for a long time to come


Is the fm ambi going to take over or are u still going to release fm ergo models with upgrades.

If i am correct all that changed from the 2015- 2016 is "retooling" of the mold...

I contacted fm support asking what will be on the 2016 rendition. They said improved rubber grips and new mouse buttons. Where are those changes?????

Also will there ever be a new ergo with the 3360 like the moe one or something.

Thanks


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pgmichael*
> 
> Could you give me a rough estimate on what you think the shipping might cost? Also, do you need to pay for customs?


is it so hard to buy from canada some products in the US ?
I can buy from the US or china and so on without problems here from Germany ... yea the delivery will maybe cost some € more , but never paid more then 10€ for delivery ...
( yea, sry my english isnt good )


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> All this ambi shape hype... It sort of worries me.
> Is the fm ambi going to take over or are u still going to release fm ergo models with upgrades.
> 
> If i am correct all that changed from the 2015- 2016 is "retooling" of the mold...
> 
> I contacted fm support asking what will be on the 2016 rendition. They said improved rubber grips and new mouse buttons. Where are those changes?????
> 
> Also will there ever be a new ergo with the 3360 like the moe one or something.
> 
> Thanks


Please answer, these are excellent questions!


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> is it so hard to buy from canada some products in the US ?
> I can buy from the US or china and so on without problems here from Germany ... yea the delvery will maybe cost some € more , but never paid more then 10€ for delivery ...
> ( yea, sry my english isnt good )


No, we are just use to having everything on our own amazon.


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pgmichael*
> 
> Just checked the value of the Canadian dollar. ******* ridiculous, guess I won't be buying the finalmouse after all. Really hope the dollar bounces back, didn't realize on how much money I was wasting on conversion rates.


I know dude, hopefully Trump takes the US down in a blaze of glory. Hopefully he "TRUMPS" the US's economy.


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> No, we are just use to having everything on our own amazon.


we've got our own amazon too ... but we're not forced to used just ( ama .de )
if I wanna buy something on ama .com or so I need to use a credit card , but wayne ...
poor canada poor


----------



## TburdzZ

Introducing the flusha one. This mouse features aimbot that is undetectable

Nah but fr im excited for the scream one but please put the 3360 in the ergo and give use rubber grips.

When are mousefeet coming out u said on here that you will be selling mouse feet so.... where they at thoe? Maybe try copying the hyperglides design as they work great and i have them on every single mouse in my collection that is getting far to big...


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> which omrons?
> 
> what dpi settings are there? have you guys finally wrapped your heads around the fact that there exists people out there who actually benefit from the finer granularity in dpi adjustments?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see it beneficial to have more than couple of reasonable dpi steps, you can do adjustments with game settings no difference in performance..
Click to expand...

There are other games out there that dont force a multiplier on you like csgo


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> we've got our own amazon too ... but we're not forced to used just ( ama .de )
> if I wanna buy ama .com or so I need to use a credit card , but wayne ...
> poor canada poor


#firstworldproblems
http://cdn1.eaglerising.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/first-world-problems.jpg


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

www.amazon.ca


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> www.amazon.ca


Yeah but our friend here was refering to not being able to buy FM off of .ca and having to use .com


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## jtl999

I'm sure my parents can supply something to that effect. They are paying for uni anyway


----------



## ChinaRep

They mentioned before that they didn't want to do 1000 hz polling rates because it won't work on macs without a driver package or something.


----------



## jtl999

source?

My Naos 7000 and G303 work on OSX 10.10 at 1000hz (macbook pro 2015)

(although cursor freezes at boot and I have SmoothMouse installed)


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> ...and a 3360 version which uses a new controller and custom implementation without the low pass filter.


Is this the "RC Drive" thing you were talking about earlier in this thread?


----------



## ChinaRep

Jude said it somewhere in this thread before the first fm was released and I'm not about to search through all the pages in here to find it again lol.

@Jonagold I find it a lot more convenient to change my sens by changing dpi. That way I don't have to change my sens for every game I play.


----------



## jtl999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Jude said it somewhere in this thread before the first fm was released and I'm not about to search through all the pages in here to find it again lol.
> 
> @Jonagold I find it a lot more convenient to change my sens by changing dpi. That way I don't have to change my sens for every game I play.


Closest thing I could find is this

http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/30#post_23314719


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## BlazeGaming

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> So when is this happening? It's past 1130PM EST and I got work in the morning


No but really what does tonight mean? Will they delay the reveal to rename the Ambi?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pgmichael*
> 
> On a more serious note, I'm a bit disappointed from finalmouse after fully understanding what they are launching. Although I'm sure their mices are beyond good, I feel like their is soo much PR involved.
> 
> For example, so much public personalities uses the finalmouse and make great criticisms about it yet only a fraction of pro players uses it. I also feel like scream isn't even going to use his mice. Why would he use ergonomic mices all his career and suddenly change for a symmetrical mice?
> 
> Also, this launch seems forced. Many features that were promised on the ergonomic mice are cancled (side buttons and grips) making the 2016 edition just another OEM shell with good hardware.
> 
> I really hope that next time they will focus less on PR and make more changes to their lineup (even thought the ambi looks like a solid product) and availability; it is not normal to pay double the price because of the location.


Maybe the shape is usable for him. Wouldn't the finger groove of the ergo mouse be more problematic than a mouse with the right side shaped like the left?


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BlazeGaming*
> 
> No but really what does tonight mean? Will they delay the reveal to rename the Ambi?


Maybe its "tonight" euro time or asian time









Suspect delay is due to renaming.


----------



## paradoxals

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BlazeGaming*
> 
> No but really what does tonight mean? Will they delay the reveal to rename the Ambi?


Hopefully soon, the Ergo version has been available for purchase for a few hours. Maybe at midnight?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> Maybe its "tonight" euro time or asian time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suspect delay is due to renaming.


Just call it the "S1" instead. Seeing that it's their first symmetrical mouse and Scream is the poster boy. The S1 Pro, or S1 Tournament and simply S1.

How about S1 Competitive shortened to S1-C?









What really needs to be change is their company name.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

If they rename?? That means the packaging must not say 'Ambi'? Lol


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> If they rename?? That means the packaging must not say 'Ambi'? Lol


Like they have any packaging yet. I assume it's a month away (at the earliest) from making it into your hands.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What really needs to be change is their company name.


Yea now it has to be FinalMous*es*


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Like they have any packaging yet. I assume it's a month away (at the earliest) from making it into your hands.


After saying it would be up tonight? Now that would cause a stir.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Amazon is selling out faster than they can sort inventory. We still plan to launch everything tonight in terms of website/marketing material.... But there is a good chance the tournament and classic won't be available for purchase .

Also the tournament comes in black packaging that doesn't say "ambi" so a name change would not delay anything.

There are a lot of questions.... A lot of these will be answered in a video release from CES tonight or tomorrow as well

Also like I said before the scream one is not being unveiled tonight that is happening in 2-3 weeks, I know scream wanted to do a big stream event.... And yes he is changing to the symmetrical model from the classic ergo though he has not practiced with it that much yet


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Amazon is selling out faster than they can sort inventory. We still plan to launch everything tonight in terms of website/marketing material.... But there is a good chance the tournament and classic won't be available for purchase .
> 
> Also the tournament comes in black packaging that doesn't say "ambi" so a name change would not delay anything.
> 
> There are a lot of questions.... A lot of these will be answered in a video release from CES tonight or tomorrow as well


Come on Bruh


----------



## FinalmouseJude

There was a small window when amazo had units available but they were being ordered too quickly so the Amazon warehouses put up their own time delay... Out of our control


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> There was a small window when amazo had units available but they were being ordered too quickly so the Amazon warehouses put up their own time delay... Out of our control


Alright, who here bought all the ambi's?


----------



## paradoxals

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> There was a small window when amazo had units available but they were being ordered too quickly so the Amazon warehouses put up their own time delay... Out of our control


So we WON'T be able to order the new ambi version tonight? And I'm assuming the ergo versions won't be shipping on the 11th like Amazon says.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> There was a small window when amazo had units available but they were being ordered too quickly so the Amazon warehouses put up their own time delay... Out of our control


I mean on the ambi being available for purchase. Lol

I got money to blow.

If it's not released tonight, then tomorrow? Friday? Tbt?


----------



## raiikd

I haven't even seen the tournament ambi in stock. I have been checking every couple minutes.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Im not sure about the ambi's.... those may have not even been received and sorted at all by amazon. But i know the ergo had a warehouse delay placed on it by amazon to give them time to sort and prepare all the orders. It looks like the 11th, it could very well be the same for the ambi... maybe even a bit later.


----------



## paradoxals

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Im not sure about the ambi's.... those may have not even been received and sorted at all by amazon. But i know the ergo had a warehouse delay placed on it by amazon to give them time to sort and prepare all the orders. It looks like the 11th, it could very well be the same for the ambi... maybe even a bit later.


Well that's a shame, was looking forward to ordering the ambi version tonight, and avoid having to fight off the hordes of people wanting it once the word gets out on your new website. Can you provide us with an ETA of the new website, or is tonight really the only idea you have?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I know scream wanted to do a big stream event.... And yes he is changing to the symmetrical model from the classic ergo though he has not practiced with it that much yet


He should do that as soon as possible even though it won't go on sell for awhile. He can play some games and show it off on camera. Basically a live infomercial.

Most companies hide their stuff until it's on sale and the "reviewers" finish their content. I liked seeing Neo use the FK before it was announced and how Mionix showed off their prototypes.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Jude said it somewhere in this thread before the first fm was released and I'm not about to search through all the pages in here to find it again lol.
> 
> @Jonagold I find it a lot more convenient to change my sens by changing dpi. That way I don't have to change my sens for every game I play.


For the sake of muscle memory I never change my general sensitivity. Every game seems to have their own sensitivity so you need to do individual changes for every game anyways..


----------



## JustinSane

What happened to the announcement tonight?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Is still happening. We are waiting on the team at CES to coordinate with web people.


----------



## jtl999

Are the asleep?







Kind of late on the west coast.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Is still happening. We are waiting on the team at CES to coordinate with web people.


huh?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

you don't have to be on the floor as a booth exhibitor to go to CES .


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Custom 3360 ambi... Interesting.


----------



## qsxcv

well depending how you define custom you could say either

only logitech's 3366 is a custom 3360
or
every company has a custom 3360.


----------



## turnschuh

Hey @FinalmouseJude do you this time consider providing a little tool (optional "cuz esports" = lol..) to change CPI and LoD for your 3360 mice?

Or atleast get rid of the idea that we need steps like 400/800/*1600/3200* and instead *put some useful steps in between*? (A few to nobody uses fking 3200 CPI with your mouse but some would like to use 1000/1200 for example...) And provide functions to fine tune the LoD without software ("because LAN, PRO, CSGO, etc")


----------



## jtl999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Hey @FinalmouseJude do you this time consider providing a little tool (optional "cuz esports" = lol..) to change CPI and LoD for your 3360 mice?
> 
> Or atleast get rid of the idea that we need steps like 400/800/*1600/3200* and instead *put some useful steps in between*? (A few to nobody uses fking 3200 CPI with your mouse but some would like to use 1000/1200 for example...) And provide functions to fine tune the LoD without software ("because LAN, PRO, CSGO, etc")


Yeah. Just a small firmware flasher will do. Like what Mionix has.


----------



## turnschuh

Yea would be amazing.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Hey @FinalmouseJude do you this time consider providing a little tool (optional "cuz esports" = lol..) to change CPI and LoD for your 3360 mice?
> 
> Or atleast get rid of the idea that we need steps like 400/800/*1600/3200* and instead *put some useful steps in between*? (A few to nobody uses fking 3200 CPI with your mouse but some would like to use 1000/1200 for example...) And provide functions to fine tune the LoD without software ("because LAN, PRO, CSGO, etc")


I am transitioning to a higher sensitivity. The one I used a very long time ago. So, I will use 1600 CPI, like I did with my Diamondback.

A portable config tool wouldn't need to be signed by Microsoft, correct? If that is the case. Why wouldn't they offer a extremely simple program?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> huh?


Isn't Moe and Scream at CES? A bunch of other GO people as well.


----------



## paradoxals

So I guess nothing is coming out tonight lol?


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I am transitioning to a higher sensitivity. The one I used a very long time ago. So, I will use 1600 CPI, like I did with my Diamondback.


Yeah, no i should have just made the "3200" bold instead of the 1600 cpi step. Used 1600 cpi a long time aswell (old diamondback), even 1800 cpi when the diamondback 3g came out. But after using 800 cpi for so long with newer mice (because of the lack of customization), i struggle with 1600 now. But still i find 800 to be slightly too low. Thats why i find there should be steps in between 800 and 1600, and get rid of the 3200 cpi step (or let it be, doesn't matter for me)

Anyways, 800 is alright for me atm... It's just that these new sensors could have so many useful cpi steps if there were only software to change them. Especially for the 3360.. :/

edit: and LoD adjustments...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> A portable config tool wouldn't need to sign by Microsoft, correct? If that is the case. Why wouldn't they offer a extremely simple program?


Good question there.


----------



## Zyther

even make it so that you remove steps, eg just have 400 and 1600 etc, or even the ability to remap the button


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Isn't Moe and Scream at CES? A bunch of other GO people as well.


probably there for the eleague stuff


----------



## dlano

Why even bother with selling a 3310 ambi if you have a 3360 version just around the corner? You're just gonna end up with a lot of returned product or unhappy customers after finding out their "new" mouse has already been supplanted.

The confusion over names on this forum alone make me wonder what exactly your marketing guys are doing if you're just gonna change it this last minute. Was there any market research/feedback from actual people other than Scream (who you say hasn't even played with his "signature" model all that much yet)?

I hope the actual product is good, but everything just seems like mess right now.


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> Hey @FinalmouseJude do you this time consider providing a little tool (optional "cuz esports" = lol..) to change CPI and LoD for your 3360 mice?
> 
> Or atleast get rid of the idea that we need steps like 400/800/*1600/3200* and instead *put some useful steps in between*? (A few to nobody uses fking 3200 CPI with your mouse but some would like to use 1000/1200 for example...) And provide functions to fine tune the LoD without software ("because LAN, PRO, CSGO, etc")


'

I agree. 900 or 1000 would be nice.


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> Why even bother with selling a 3310 ambi if you have a 3360 version just around the corner? You're just gonna end up with a lot of returned product or unhappy customers after finding out their "new" mouse has already been supplanted.
> 
> The confusion over names on this forum alone make me wonder what exactly your marketing guys are doing if you're just gonna change it this last minute. Was there any market research/feedback from actual people other than Scream (who you say hasn't even played with his "signature" model all that much yet)?
> 
> I hope the actual product is good, but everything just seems like mess right now.


Yeah should be called the TemporaryMouse 2016 - Tournament Pro


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> For the sake of muscle memory I never change my general sensitivity. Every game seems to have their own sensitivity so you need to do individual changes for every game anyways..


You can just go to mouse-sensitivity.com and you'll be able to match your in game sensitivities across all your games.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> You can just go to mouse-sensitivity.com and you'll be able to match your in game sensitivities across all your games.


Yeah, that's what I do, no dpi changes required..


----------



## wmoftw

http://www.amazon.com/FinalMouse-Finalmouse-2016-Tournament-Pro/dp/B01A8MAPY0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1452179703&sr=8-2&keywords=finalmouse+tournament

doesn't look too bad, this could be decent


----------



## ChinaRep

I never said it was required. It's just a lot easier to change your DPI and have your sensitivity be the same for all your games than to change your in game sens for every game.


----------



## wareya

dpi increments of only 2x and 1/2x are also pretty annoying for people who play 2d games where pixel jitter exists


----------



## paradoxals

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/FinalMouse-Finalmouse-2016-Tournament-Pro/dp/B01A8MAPY0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1452179703&sr=8-2&keywords=finalmouse+tournament
> 
> doesn't look too bad, this could be decent


Honestly not worth getting at this point though. Best to just wait for the Scream1 edition so you can get the new sensor as well. Seems really wasteful to release a mouse like that with a better version right around the corner.


----------



## trism

Some people just prefer having a possibility to customize the CPI steps and other settings. I lol at people who keep "no software" as a pro and not a con.

The FM "ambi" doesn't really interest me unless it's the perfect size. Most likely it's too big for my taste. What's the point in putting the most customizable sensor in a mouse where you can't customize anything?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> dpi increments of only 2x and 1/2x are also pretty annoying for people who play 2d games where pixel jitter exists


If you play 2d games then the finalmouse really isn't marketed toward you.


----------



## wareya

Good thing finalmouse 2015 is great for FPS -- oh wait 4ms input lag on the sensor


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paradoxals*
> 
> Honestly not worth getting at this point though. Best to just wait for the Scream1 edition so you can get the new sensor as well. Seems really wasteful to release a mouse like that with a better version right around the corner.


thanks, wasn't sure on the sensor. i'll just wait it out and try out the new one then


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Good thing finalmouse 2015 is great for FPS -- oh wait 4ms input lag on the sensor


if it was 0 you'd still be just as bad


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> if it was 0 you'd still be just as bad


Good job making yourself irrelevant


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> For the sake of muscle memory I never change my general sensitivity. Every game seems to have their own sensitivity so you need to do individual changes for every game anyways..


You're saying people don't change their dpi outside of gaming?


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Good job making yourself irrelevant


stage 1: denial


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> stage 1: denial


Why do you always antagonistically defend the FM's latency and deny that it is a problem?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> You're saying people don't change their dpi outside of gaming?


No that I know of. They really aren't concerned with accuracy anyway, they'll just turn up windows sens. Lol


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Why do you always antagonistically defend the FM's latency and deny that it is a problem?


you should get outside more because I've never talked about fm input delay on here


----------



## ChinaRep

But turning up windows sens messes up your in game sens and adds accel...


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Why do you always antagonistically defend the FM's latency and deny that it is a problem?


His name is wmoftw what do you expect lol


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> But turning up windows sens messes up your in game sens and adds accel...


Thats why I wrote they dont care about accuracy. And added lol. No it doesn't add accel just pixel skipping/rounding.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> you should get outside more because I've never talked about fm input delay on here


Sorry, I was incorrectly remembering this masterpiece of idiocy:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> lol is this a joke? yeah 400dpi is just e-sports pro magic and it's all a conspiracy to make those 300dpi mice companies go out of business
> [...]
> no way it's anywhere near 20cm/360, especially if we're talking about 1080p. there's no pixel skipping or lost accuracy when you use a sens like ~10cm/360 on 400dpi @ 1080p, let alone 15 or 20 . It would have to be close to 5cm or so, but it would be at a sens that would be too high to begin with, so he'd have to lower it anyways. 4k? yeah maybe, but that's rare and no 4K 120hz so it doesn't matter really


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Thats why I wrote they dont care about accuracy. And added lol. No it doesn't add accel just pixel skipping/rounding.


Yeah, but that's assuming they don't care about accuracy







. It's not a priority of mine or anything but I do like to have my windows sens similar to my in game sens so it's nice to have more DPI options. Also my bad on the accel thing. I knew it messed something up but I forgot what it was lol


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> No that I know of. They really aren't concerned with accuracy anyway, they'll just turn up windows sens. Lol


I shouldn't be amazed the depths of naivety this forum gets to daily but I am.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Yeah, but that's assuming they don't care about accuracy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . It's not a priority of mine or anything but I do like to have my windows sens similar to my in game sens so it's nice to have more DPI options. Also my bad on the accel thing. I knew it messed something up but I forgot what it was lol


Yeah but you game, I thought we meant people whondid not game at all, maybe the odd browser game type people.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> I shouldn't be amazed the depths of naivety this forum gets to daily but I am.


We are talking about people who don't game and don't know any better. Read into it before you Smash[TV] it.


----------



## a_ak57

So are you guys still listing your mice weights without the section of cable inside the mouse or whatever it was you did for the original ergo model to make it seem lighter? I swear I read a while ago that the ambi mouse was supposed to be low 80s in weight but it's listed at 76g on Amazon.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Sorry, I was incorrectly remembering this masterpiece of idiocy:


reads post about dpi, remembers it as fm input delay defending

l.o.l.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> So are you guys still listing your mice weights without the section of cable inside the mouse or whatever it was you did for the original ergo model to make it seem lighter? I swear I read a while ago that the ambi mouse was supposed to be low 80s in weight but it's listed at 76g on Amazon.


I think the practice of including that short part in the weight is pretty rare, actually.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> reads post about dpi, remembers it as fm input delay defending
> 
> l.o.l.


wasn't worth space in my memory


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> So are you guys still listing your mice weights without the section of cable inside the mouse or whatever it was you did for the original ergo model to make it seem lighter? I swear I read a while ago that the ambi mouse was supposed to be low 80s in weight but it's listed at 76g on Amazon.


They measure before the cable has been attached to the pcb


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> I think the practice of including that short part in the weight is pretty rare, actually.


From what I've seen the non-cable weights other companies list are pretty accurate to what people weigh (like Zowie off the top of my head). In any case the weight for the ergo is apparently way off, someone measured theirs at 90g minus cable and emailed FM about it and they said the listed weight was an engineer's fault for weighing the mouse without some components.







They probably did the same here, especially considering it's unlikely a mouse supposedly the size of the WMO has those extra buttons and weighs 4g less.


----------



## wareya

well, my KPM with everything in it is ~2-4g heavier than the official 90g weightpoint


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlano*
> 
> Why even bother with selling a 3310 ambi if you have a 3360 version just around the corner? You're just gonna end up with a lot of returned product or unhappy customers after finding out their "new" mouse has already been supplanted.
> 
> The confusion over names on this forum alone make me wonder what exactly your marketing guys are doing if you're just gonna change it this last minute. Was there any market research/feedback from actual people other than Scream (who you say hasn't even played with his "signature" model all that much yet)?
> 
> I hope the actual product is good, but everything just seems like mess right now.


Excess inventory maybe ? Some people also swear by the 3310 and fm has done it right before. 3360 will be for the early adopters who May face bugs


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> well, my KPM with everything in it is ~2-4g heavier than the official 90g weightpoint


You know, now that I think about it it doesn't seem like that bit of cable should weigh more than that few grams anyway, so presumably you're right about companies at large and they're all off by like 2-3g, which then appears accurate enough given the margin of error of people weighing their mice (presumably most of us don't cut and just kinda lift the cable to simulate it not being there, which can be inconsistent). But that would mean FM is shady about their weight listings and actually do remove legitimate components or something. I dunno if Jude will respond since I'm throwing accusations around, but it'd be nice to get some clarification on how they're getting their weights. And if they actually acknowledged that the ergo weight is listed wrong, why they never changed it.


----------



## Oh wow Secret Cow

Finalmouse is back on my radar again with the 3360 announcement, since their 3310 sensors don't play nice with hard pads. Unless they royally screwed up the sensor, have terribad click latency, or pulled a Steelseries and put the sensor under the heel of your hand, I'll buy one


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> Excess inventory maybe ? Some people also swear by the 3310 and fm has done it right before. 3360 will be for the early adopters who May face bugs


Sounds like Jude was placed in a situation where the factory would only budge on a 3360 mouse if he bought a certain amount of units. Hence the sudden "finalmouse product line".

Remember this started as a one man operation.

I'm more curious now about what job Jude had before all this.

Bst sold shoes over the internet before his stupid fail mouse project. I wonder what wacky thing Jude had going on before this? Hmmmmm....


----------



## qsxcv

feenix.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> feenix.


welp


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> welp


No wonder those stupid ads for the Nascita 2015 I saw on overclock.net mobile months back annoyed me so. That logo, I can't unsee it.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paradoxals*
> 
> Honestly not worth getting at this point though. Best to just wait for the Scream1 edition so you can get the new sensor as well. Seems really wasteful to release a mouse like that with a better version right around the corner.


will it have the same sensor as the Zowie ZA mice? I have the ZA13 and really like the sensor, but it's listed as PMW3310H, the FM is listed without the H.


----------



## qsxcv

there is only one type of 3310. companies screw around with the exact naming all the time


----------



## Deadeye

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Amazon is selling out faster than they can sort inventory. We still plan to launch everything tonight in terms of website/marketing material.... But there is a good chance the tournament and classic won't be available for purchase .
> 
> Also the tournament comes in black packaging that doesn't say "ambi" so a name change would not delay anything.
> 
> There are a lot of questions.... A lot of these will be answered in a video release from CES tonight or tomorrow as well
> 
> Also like I said before the scream one is not being unveiled tonight that is happening in 2-3 weeks, I know scream wanted to do a big stream event.... And yes he is changing to the symmetrical model from the classic ergo though he has not practiced with it that much yet


Ha i was right they are releasing in CES


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> there is only one type of 3310. companies screw around with the exact naming all the time


thanks, I might buy this anyways and try it then. mice go pretty quick on ebay in my experience


----------



## qsxcv

for all we know, Jude probably isn't his actual name


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> for all we know, Jude probably isn't his actual name


lol probably


----------



## JustinSane

The info is up - http://www.finalmouse.com/


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

The Finalmouse site is updated, still awaiting the ambi to be available for order.


----------



## zekron

"<...>solidified Finalmouse as the industry standard for esports tracking, aim, and sensor implementation"

Have I missed something?


----------



## grandeuraliass

so is the 2016 version on amazon still 500hz?


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> The Finalmouse site is updated, still awaiting the ambi to be available for order.


I think they said it won't be available to order until the 11th. I'm just disappointed that it'll probably be another month or so for the scream one.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandeuraliass*
> 
> so is the 2016 version on amazon still 500hz?


Yes, 99,9% sure , based on the info on the site: "By retaining all the sensor algorithms, chipsets, firmware, and SROM from the original Finalmouse&#8230; "

So the Tournament Pro or the AMBI basicly has the same internals,same srom, same everything... Dont know if for the better or worse









Also I think I can state that the Scream One will be a 3360 to ,atleast , my surprise! "custom pixart 3310/3360 ir led's "


----------



## grandeuraliass

yeah heard the scream is 1000hz locked and 3360. prob hop on the 2016 until the scream is readily available?


----------



## turnschuh

I dont know, is this me or does the butt still look too FK1-ish?
Why are there still no dimensions out?...

Edit: it's me i think. But its definitely not as rounded as the wmo ass.

Also on amazon:
Quote:


> - New *Tournament Pro* model developed for *CS:GO & Esports athletes*
> - Flawless Pixart 3310 IR Led *Esports Sensor*
> - *Esports Inspired* Ergonomic Form Factor
> - *Professional & Tournament Grade*


LOLed


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandeuraliass*
> 
> yeah heard the scream is 1000hz locked and 3360. prob hop on the 2016 until the scream is readily available?


Wait for the Scream1 unless you really like the shape of the Classic or the Ergo/Ambi


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> I think they said it won't be available to order until the 11th. I'm just disappointed that it'll probably be another month or so for the scream one.


Bump that,the Ergo isn't going out until the 11th hell, they should have the ambi up for order to do the same.lol


----------



## grandeuraliass

im using ec2a benq version right now, never tried the finalmouse.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandeuraliass*
> 
> im using ec2a benq version right now, never tried the finalmouse.


Yeah so just wait for the ScreamOne.The Classic and the Ambi arent worth your attention imho.


----------



## CorruptBE

Been a bit out of the loop.

There's a 3360 in a non crap shape coming? Sign me up.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know, is this me or does the butt still look too FK1-ish?
> Why are there still no dimensions out?...
> 
> Edit: it's me i think. But its definitely not as rounded as the wmo ass.
> 
> Also on amazon:
> LOLed


The wmo isnt actually that different from the fk1, the wmo 1mm taller if i remember. It just looks round because of how the shell is two colours.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

So wait, so the same group that runs Feenix and Finalmouse also are *developing a videogame*.

A videogame made by people at Finalmouse. Imagine the brokenness.

The next go to meme game with micro transactions!


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Yeah so just wait for the ScreamOne.The Classic and the Ambi arent worth your attention imho.


Pretty sure the s1 is just an ambi with a 3360


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> So wait, so the same group that runs Feenix and Finalmouse also are *developing a videogame*.
> 
> A videogame made by people at Finalmouse. Imagine the brokenness.
> 
> The next go to meme game with micro transactions!


"The pros are used to the bugs"


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Pretty sure the s1 is just an ambi with a 3360


I agree with you but my gut tells me that the s1 will be an ambi with maybe slightly different surface/or/ring+pinkey rest/or/different feet or something else just to prove the fact that its based on Scream,tuned to his hand and preferences and other PR bs.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

So as you guys can see the new website is up. Here is some more info:

Tournament ambi is now known as tournament pro for sake of less confusion...

Scream One and Tournament Pro will all feature 2x2 mouse feet . All the 1x1 mouse feet were nixed since they did not feel good to us or our pros.

All scream ones will have japanese alps encoders and japanese factory OMRONS.

Tournament Pro will be using same internals and components as classic ergo... although the clicks feel way different (better imo) due to tooling.

Scream One will be unveiled live on stream by Scream in a couple weeks.

The classic ergo on amazon right now is backordered/delayed due to demand.

The tournament Pro has not been stored by amazon yet.

Kind REgards,
Jude


----------



## Kyube

So is the Scream1 the WMO w/ 3360 we all have been waiting for?


----------



## wareya

The ambi image on the site looks like someone rescaled it several times, it's full of warpy distortion, tell whoever made it to do it again, should only take like 15 mins to fix http://www.finalmouse.com/nodework/images/home-product-1.jpg


----------



## t00t

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> So as you guys can see the new website is up. Here is some more info:
> 
> Tournament ambi is now known as tournament pro for sake of less confusion...
> 
> Scream One and Tournament Pro will all feature 2x2 mouse feet . All the 1x1 mouse feet were nixed since they did not feel good to us or our pros.
> 
> All scream ones will have japanese alps encoders and japanese factory OMRONS.
> 
> Tournament Pro will be using same internals and components as classic ergo... although the clicks feel way different (better imo) due to tooling.
> 
> Scream One will be unveiled live on stream by Scream in a couple weeks.
> 
> The classic ergo on amazon right now is backordered/delayed due to demand.
> 
> The tournament Pro has not been stored by amazon yet.
> 
> Kind REgards,
> Jude


Sounds good - the Tournament Pro shape looks really quite nice.

Are you able to clarify the mention of '3310 / 3360' on the website?
Will the 3360 eventually come to the Tournament Pro and / or the Scream One?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Yes its safe to assume the option will come to more in time... But for right now we see the two as a choice people can pick between... Pure horsepower fixed framerate, or more proven SROM variable framerate. I think at the end of the day it will come down to preference... a lot of people may still like the classic ergo shape for now, some may like the tournament pro, while others (I'm guessing most the people here) will want the "best" components that the Scream one offers.


----------



## Dreyka

Spoiler: Quote: turnschuh



Originally Posted by *turnschuh* 


> I dont know, is this me or does the butt still look too FK1-ish?
> Why are there still no dimensions out?...
> 
> Edit: it's me i think. But its definitely not as rounded as the wmo ass.
> 
> Also on amazon:
> LOLed






I hope you are prepared for this uber elite, esports, pro ultimate gaming mouse tuned for professionals with an esports grade LED that can't be turned off.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> "The pros are used to the bugs"


"The game cannot be updated as that would damage the image of it being a perfect game."

"The game has no options as the options we chose for you are already perfect."


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Yes its safe to assume the option will come to more in time... But for right now we see the two as a choice people can pick between... Pure horsepower fixed framerate, or more proven SROM variable framerate. I think at the end of the day it will come down to preference... a lot of people may still like the classic ergo shape for now, some may like the tournament pro, while others (I'm guessing most the people here) will want the "best" components that the Scream one offers.


so the scream version is the same shape as the tournament pro? or also just ambi?


----------



## zeflow

Aren't all omrons made in Japan...??


----------



## wareya

No, there are omrons manufactured in china as well, in fact they're more common now. They're still omrons though.


----------



## grandeuraliass

hold up though....so the screamone isnt coming in an ergo formfacter? its only ambi?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Yes at the moment the scream one is utilizing the ambi shape.

Not to get too ahead of myself but the Scream Two in 6 ish months will be an all new shape.


----------



## grandeuraliass

awww, oh well. supposee ill just have to get used to it


----------



## detto87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> The wmo isnt actually that different from the fk1, the wmo 1mm taller if i remember. It just looks round because of how the shell is two colours.


I have FK1 and WMO side by side right now on my table.
And they're actually pretty different, but of course share similarities.
In the end the FK1 doesn't feel as good in the hand though, because the sides are too curvy, the front is too low, and the overall height and roundness is less compared to the WMO.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kyube*
> 
> So is the Scream1 the WMO w/ 3360 we all have been waiting for?


Guess we'll have to wait and see. I feel it'll be hard to truly find respectable opinions about the shape as many people shout out generic statements like Sensei is a WMO shape and EC1 is a IE3.0 shape. It's all kinda blurry and most of the time I was dissapointed in a shape after hearing about it first and buying it myself afterwards.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Looks like I'm going to be upgrading to a Tournament pro as soon as they're available.

Cannot wait! Anyone have a release date?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Looks like I'm going to be upgrading to a Tournament pro as soon as they're available.
> 
> Cannot wait! Anyone have a release date?


We think it is the 11th

edit: mis-quoted.


----------



## themittens

I just ordered a regular 2016 final mouse

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MX8QSLW?keywords=2016%20final%20mouse&qid=1452202566&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

Should I cancel it because something is coming along with the 3360 in it? Is it going to be that same shape? I want something with that shape, I use a FK1 right now and it sucks for palm grip, I think the final mouse will be better. Only using it for CSGO.


----------



## hyp36rmax

@CMRajiv CM Felinni here! I mean hyp36rmax! haha! Please tell me you had a grand exit playing a song from your phone?


----------



## raiikd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *themittens*
> 
> I just ordered a regular 2016 final mouse
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MX8QSLW?keywords=2016%20final%20mouse&qid=1452202566&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1
> 
> Should I cancel it because something is coming along with the 3360 in it? Is it going to be that same shape? I want something with that shape, I use a FK1 right now and it sucks for palm grip, I think the final mouse will be better. Only using it for CSGO.


They said only the scream one ambi shape will have 3360 sensor.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

1 ergo Finalmouse left in stick on Amazon. Lol already selling out.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> So as you guys can see the new website is up. Here is some more info:
> 
> Tournament ambi is now known as tournament pro for sake of less confusion...
> 
> Scream One and Tournament Pro will all feature 2x2 mouse feet . All the 1x1 mouse feet were nixed since they did not feel good to us or our pros.
> 
> All scream ones will have japanese alps encoders and japanese factory OMRONS.
> 
> Tournament Pro will be using same internals and components as classic ergo... although the clicks feel way different (better imo) due to tooling.
> 
> Scream One will be unveiled live on stream by Scream in a couple weeks.
> 
> The classic ergo on amazon right now is backordered/delayed due to demand.
> 
> The tournament Pro has not been stored by amazon yet.
> 
> Kind REgards,
> Jude


This worries me that fm is turning into a company after the cash and that's it. They seem to be FAR more focused on the tournement pro shape mousr and I feel like they may forget about the FAR from perfect ergo. Broken promises false advertising look I love dm but it's getting a little old I've had both the original fk and then the 2015 summer. Now the 2016 is out and I will be honest it didn't change much AT ALL. I was told rubber grips and a totally new side button setup plus 1000hz and literally kone of that is here.

Something that may just be a personal thing but I love the sensor and mouse performance but something about the structural integrity of the mouse itself feels way way off. I picked up a g303 which i later returned due to major wrist pains while using but the mouse just felt... More thought out the buttons are crisp the clicks are crisp and when I tap on the clickers without actuating them it doesn't rattle side to side like the fm. It's little stuff like that. If the fm s1 isn't like that im going to swipe a couple of those bad boys up but if it is im back to my zowie am with a 3310 custom installed by myself.

Sorry for bad grammer and errors im in tha car while typing this at stop lights and traffic...


----------



## Aventadoor

Ofcourse they are about the cash.
All companies are after you cash. Deal with it.


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> Sorry for bad grammer and errors im in tha car while typing this at stop lights and traffic...


Jesus dude, focus on driving before you kill somebody.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> Jesus dude, focus on driving before you kill somebody.


Im stuck in traffic going like 10 meters every 5min bc of accident somewhere ahead nobody is getting hurt m8 lol.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aventadoor*
> 
> Ofcourse they are about the cash.
> All companies are after you cash. Deal with it.


Your point is absolutely correct by all means but what im saying is that if there ergo does not sell well enough when the s1 comes out they may just stop supporting it all together or not support it to a good enough extent.


----------



## qsxcv

>custom pixart 3310/3360 ir led's
lol
3360, like 3366, has an integrated led. there's absolutely nothing 'custom' that can be done to it.

which isn't a bad thing but still makes me cringe.

as do all those references to 'esports'


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Ergo version has new tooling that modified upper shell in an effort to improve the clicks including bigger changes to the plungers. There is still work to do before the ergo clicks feel as great as the ambi currently does with clicks in my opinion. We decided to forgo the side button change until a later 2016 batch due to delays and involvement in the tournament ambi and scream one 3360 variant.


Will the mouse still click M1 when I pick the mouse up and set it down? Hope not. Was hoping that the Ergo would get more attention than it did by now because I am not a fan of symmetrical shapes. Better side buttons at the least, along with the other fixes.


----------



## jsx3

eSports dawg. Lets sucker kids into buying overpriced products filled with buzzwords those idiots on OCN really like. loooool.


----------



## wareya

i mean you could waste a lot of money buying something other than a finalmouse, it's just the good old false advertising that makes them so silly.


----------



## thatgold

Anyone know the dimensions of the Ambi? I couldn't find it on their new website.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Yes at the moment the scream one is utilizing the ambi shape.
> 
> Not to get too ahead of myself but the Scream Two in 6 ish months will be an all new shape.


Will we get a more fingertip/claw grip oriented shape? Something like a G9X shape?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> >custom pixart 3310/3360 ir led's
> lol
> 3360, like 3366, has an integrated led. there's absolutely nothing 'custom' that can be done to it.
> 
> which isn't a bad thing but still makes me cringe.
> 
> as do all those references to 'esports'


µ

Yup, but every brand does it.

Personally they had me at "3360 in a shape that makes sense".

Race against the clock for my € 50-100 has begun, who's the first brand to hit the mark


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Race against the clock for my € 50-100 has begun, who's the first brand to hit the mark


at least wait for button latency numbers


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kyube*
> 
> So is the Scream1 the WMO w/ 3360 we all have been waiting for?


It doesn't look like a WMO shape.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Yes its safe to assume the option will come to more in time... But for right now we see the two as a choice people can pick between... Pure horsepower fixed framerate, or more proven SROM variable framerate.


Which FinalMouse has the variable frame rate and which one has the fixed frame rate?

Does the 3360 have the option to set the frame rate like the other sensors?


----------



## CorruptBE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> at least wait for button latency numbers


You would have to seriously mess things up to get it worse then Zowie I guess and I've been using a FK2 as my main mouse since it was released.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Does the 3360 have the option to set the frame rate like the other sensors?


from everything i know including looking at the datasheet, no


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jsx3*
> 
> eSports dawg. Lets sucker kids into buying overpriced products filled with buzzwords those idiots on OCN really like. loooool.


Feenix failed at that. So they tweaked the marketing a bit, made the Finalmouse brand, and voila here we are.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> i mean you could waste a lot of money buying something other than a finalmouse, it's just the good old false advertising that makes them so silly.


Tbh i just wish fm didnt do thing slike overhype everything and last min name changes although the last min name change was for the better its just unprofessional. Honestly I really wanna like fm and I like the products but not enough for me to buy a fm an u call me weird if u like but i have a sense in pride in owning a mouse especially after I put some custom upgrades on it like better scrollwheels buttons etc .But because of there for lack of better words childish advertising just makes me cringe. Zowie I really like the way the run things there products are great and overall they are just a great company plus there mice are really really simpleistic and fun to mod/tinker with. I really just wish FM as a company was FAR more professional about how they operate. When i think of fm i think of a group of 5 ppl who as a part time job design mice but have a seperate main focus in there life. When i think of zoiwe it seems just a lot better run and more professional company.

Does any1 agree or am I alone with this thought.

Btw the new website is DEFINATLY a step in the right direction. although its a little weird idk i think they should have a home page with pics of each product rotating in and out on one big pic frame and then have a products support and anything else they desire tab on top of the page similer to corsair http://www.corsair.com/en-us


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Feenix failed at that. So they tweaked the marketing a bit, made the Finalmouse brand, and voila here we are.


yea they realized people care more about esportz than humanitarian efforts


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> from everything i know including looking at the datasheet, no


I had to ask. They would know.


----------



## wmoftw

why is everyone so butt hurt over marketing buzz words and 'lack of a response'. no one owes you anything, especially them. they released some new mice and people are salty for using e-sports as an advertising method?

does no one here understand how to *run a business?*


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> why is everyone so butt hurt over marketing buzz words and 'lack of a response'. no one owes you anything, especially them. they released some new mice and people are salty for using e-sports as an advertising method?
> 
> does no one here understand how to *run a business?*


Yeah and false advertising isnt how m8.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yea they realized people care more about esportz than humanitarian efforts


Good point.
Quote:


> However, as gamers, we have the unique ability to stimulate change. The gaming community is abundant with smart, socially connected, and creative individuals that can use their modern skillsets to create a humanitarian movement. This is why Feenix has taken the initiative to mobilize the community. As a company, we plan to host and sponsor online streamed gaming events for charity, where gamers will be able to donate to MSF (Medicines Sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Borders) and in the process have the chance to win free Feenix mice. Feenix will bring the best and most popular gamers from around the world to stream for these events in an effort to make a positive change in this world. In addition, Feenix continually donates 2 dollars from the sale of every mouse to MSF.


Is the humanitarian initiative still active Jude?


----------



## DadeBound

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> Yeah and false advertising isnt how m8.


I agree that false advertisement is messed up but I'm curious as to when did Finalmouse Falsely claim or say anything. I'm not talking about Jude if your going to quote something he said as he is but one person who we don't even know what position he holds within the small company that is Finalmouse.


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## Maximillion

The funny thing is, this really does remind me of the whole bst fiacso all over again. The hype, the hopeful fanboys, the criticism, the circus of a launch, the somewhat shady character (lmao)...grade A entertainment, would read again.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DadeBound*
> 
> I agree that false advertisement is messed up but I'm curious as to when did Finalmouse Falsely claim or say anything. I'm not talking about Jude if your going to quote something he said as he is but one person who we don't even know what position he holds within the small company that is Finalmouse.


On there old website they had 100% engenered for ergonomic design and competitive play. Well they did not engineer it the use an oem mouse and put there internals in. Thats fine by me but when they lie about it is when I have issues. Yes its really not the end of the world but I think they should be a just more professional about it and show us what they use to make the mouse instead of saying. The buttons are pro esports grade, the coating is exports grade, the clickers are esports grade, bc i dont care if its esports grade I want to know where are the parts being made what are they made out of and so on.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> You're saying people don't change their dpi outside of gaming?


I use 800-1600 dpi in-game so i don't need to change desktop sens ever.. I always just lower my in-game sensitivity to match my degrees per inch preference..


----------



## DadeBound

Oh wow ok I see where you're coming from. In that area I agree with you 100%.


----------



## TburdzZ

But what I dont get is why they didnt fix the ergo 2015 problems when the released the 2016. They know what the problems are why cant they just be fixed? I almost feel like they are waiting to fix stuff little buy little so people will always buy the newest version. But i doubt thats true so whatever.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> The funny thing is, this really does remind me of the whole bst fiacso all over again. The hype, the hopeful fanboys, the criticism, the circus of a launch, the somewhat shady character (lmao)...grade A entertainment, would read again.


bst was mostly honest at least. yea he disappeared a few times and made failed promises and screwed up a lot but i felt he actually cared about the community instead of just hoping to grab $$$


----------



## pixie99

Still no word on the dimensions for the Ambi









Or if the product will ship with extra mousefeet.


----------



## aayman_farzand

So S1 is essentially a higher quality Tournament pro? 3360, ALPS encoder and Jap omrons. Big upgrades but considering they are marketing it with a pro, they will sell it for $100 -_-.


----------



## qsxcv

i'm gunna guess 80-100 as well

it's not about how much it's worth, it's about how much people are willing to spend


----------



## aayman_farzand

At $80, I'll consider it but at $100 I'm going to wait and see what Logitech comes up with.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> At $80, I'll consider it but at $100 I'm going to wait and see what Logitech comes up with.


Zowie will refresh with 3360 this year. I like Zowie they are no non-sense. No MLG quickscopes, no false advertising or mis informed PR reps. Good customer service.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Zowie will refresh with 3360 this year. I like Zowie they are no non-sense. No MLG quickscopes, no false advertising or mis informed PR reps. Good customer service.


I have the EC2A in a box right next to me. The grip is amazing but the build isn't rigid. If I click on the top left, the body rattles slightly. I'm on a hard pad so I can feel it mid-game. Side-buttons are terrible too, it click into the shell way too much.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pgmichael*
> 
> False advertising is not a way to run a business :\


what did they lie about?


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Zowie will refresh with 3360 this year. I like Zowie they are no non-sense. No MLG quickscopes, no false advertising or mis informed PR reps. Good customer service.


I don't know why I have a feeling Benq will screw Zowie up with fancy adornishments on their future lineups.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> what did they lie about?


Making the 2016 1000hz apparently.


----------



## PU skunk

Does the 3360 have smoothing?


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> why is everyone so butt hurt over marketing buzz words and 'lack of a response'. no one owes you anything, especially them. they released some new mice and people are salty for using e-sports as an advertising method?
> 
> does no one here understand how to *run a business?*


If you're referring to Finalmouse, then no they do not know how to run a business. The very fact that this forum is all worked up about the company's choices and delivery of information/false advertising shows that Finalmouse does not know how to run a business. In my opinion, they definitely should not have released another batch of ergo mice until all the improvements that were promised were implemented into the new design. *2016 Ergo -Still using an OEM shell, 3310 sensor, same crappy side buttons, still 500Hz*. No one should be buying the 2016 ergo. As far as the symmetrical goes, I'm not interested in it, so I don't know what the deal with it is, if any. However the ScreamOne being the same design with a 3360 or 3310 doesn't make much sense to me, either. Finalmouse is just lost at this point.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> Does the 3360 have smoothing?


well 3366 doesn't... so very very probably 3360 doesn't either


----------



## pubst4r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Making the 2016 1000hz apparently.


I think he said the Scream 1 will be locked at 1000hz, not the ergo version
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The scream one 3360 is fixed 1000hz.


found it


----------



## PU skunk

.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well 3366 doesn't... so very very probably 3360 doesn't either


That's good to know because he said there will be no filter on the S1 either. So basically an MLT 04 on steroids? Finally getting there.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> If you're referring to Finalmouse, then no they do not know how to run a business. The very fact that this forum is all worked up about the company's choices and delivery of information/false advertising shows that Finalmouse does not know how to run a business. In my opinion, they definitely should not have released another batch of ergo mice until all the improvements that were promised were implemented into the new design. *2016 Ergo -Still using an OEM shell, 3310 sensor, same crappy side buttons, still 500Hz*. No one should be buying the 2016 ergo. As far as the symmetrical goes, I'm not interested in it, so I don't know what the deal with it is, if any. However the ScreamOne being the same design with a 3360 or 3310 doesn't make much sense to me, either. Finalmouse is just lost at this point.


For all that you said, the ergo mice still sold out, the new batch may even sell out now before it ships







So they do the business part well for that part.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> So S1 is essentially a higher quality Tournament pro? 3360, ALPS encoder and Jap omrons. Big upgrades but considering they are marketing it with a pro, they will sell it for $100 -_-.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i'm gunna guess 80-100 as well
> 
> it's not about how much it's worth, it's about how much people are willing to spend


The Ducky Secret uses D2F-01F switches, ALPS encoder, a 32bit ARM MCU, RGB LED and is made of PBT plastic
.
http://www.duckychannel.com.tw/page-en/ducky-secret

$68 with a free mouse pad included or £53.38 without mouse pad.

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1448
http://www.cclonline.com/product/198072/DMSE15O-OPARA51/Mice/Ducky-Secret-Mouse-w/-RGB-Illumination/MOU2348/?Switch=Exc


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> So basically an MLT 04 on steroids? Finally getting there.


there's really nothing that's similar to mlt04 imo. hint: made by different company
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The Ducky Secret uses D2F-01F switches, ALPS encoder, a 32bit ARM MCU and is made of PBT plastic
> .
> http://www.duckychannel.com.tw/page-en/ducky-secret
> 
> $68 with a free mouse pad included or 56.90€.


finalmouse 2015 has
d2fc-f-7ns for l+r clicks. the 5M variation, not even the 10 or 20M ones.
really bad generic side button switches
super flimsy shell
holtek mcu

all for 68

people buy it anyway. cuz hype


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> For all that you said, the ergo mice still sold out, the new batch may even sell out now before it ships
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So they do the business part well for that part.


Did it really....I wasn't keeping tabs on it. That's ridiculous! I hope those that got it didn't already have a 2015 edition. If so I must say that's not $75 well spent.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> there's really nothing that's similar to mlt04 imo. hint: made by different company
> finalmouse 2015 has
> d2fc-f-7ns for l+r clicks. the 5M variation, not even the 10 or 20M ones.
> really bad generic side button switches
> super flimsy shell
> holtek mcu
> 
> all for 68
> 
> people buy it anyway. cuz hype


Shouldn't there 3310 mice be like $40-50 and their 3360 like $50-60?

Right now on USA Amazon the G302 is $39 and the G303 is $47. They both have more functionality than FinalMouse.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> there's really nothing that's similar to mlt04 imo. hint: made by different company
> finalmouse 2015 has
> d2fc-f-7ns for l+r clicks. the 5M variation, not even the 10 or 20M ones.
> really bad generic side button switches
> super flimsy shell
> holtek mcu
> 
> all for 68
> 
> people buy it anyway. cuz hype
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't there 3310 mice be like $40-50 and their 3360 like $50-60?
> 
> Right now on USA Amazon the G302 is $39 and the G303 is $47. They both have more functionality *and build quality* than FinalMouse.
Click to expand...

Fixed


----------



## qsxcv

well maybe the logic is
zowie can sell 3310 for 60-70
and they're catering to the same market as zowie
so they know those people are willing to pay ~70.

yea, g30* has been around $40 for a while: http://camelcamelcamel.com/Logitech-Daedalus-Performance-Edition-910-004380/product/B00TKFD51M?context=browse

g402, evga torq x5 are also very good deals for ~$40
and imo, better in every way than the 3310 finalmice except weight (and g402's awful cable)


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The Ducky Secret uses D2F-01F switches, ALPS encoder, a 32bit ARM MCU, RGB LED and is made of PBT plastic
> .
> http://www.duckychannel.com.tw/page-en/ducky-secret
> 
> $68 with a free mouse pad included or £53.38 without mouse pad.
> 
> https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1448
> http://www.cclonline.com/product/198072/DMSE15O-OPARA51/Mice/Ducky-Secret-Mouse-w/-RGB-Illumination/MOU2348/?Switch=Exc


Some do not like the weight of the Secret. Needs to be talked about more, it's a solid mouse.


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Some do not like the weight of the Secret. Needs to be talked about more, it's a solid mouse.


The weight of the Secret is exactly the one thing that turned me away from it honestly


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well maybe the logic is
> zowie can sell 3310 for 60-70
> and they're catering to the same market as zowie
> so they know those people are willing to pay ~70.
> 
> yea, g30* has been around $40 for a while: http://camelcamelcamel.com/Logitech-Daedalus-Performance-Edition-910-004380/product/B00TKFD51M?context=browse
> 
> g402, evga torq x5 are also very good deals for ~$40
> and imo, better in every way than the 3310 finalmice except weight (and g402's awful cable)


I haven't bought a Zowie for more than $60. I think the only mouse I spent over $60 for was the G303.


----------



## rpalmer92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> g402, evga torq x5 are also very good deals for ~$40
> and imo, better in every way than the 3310 finalmice except weight (and g402's awful cable)


Is the EVGA x5 seriously that good? I like my G303 but feel that something wider and with a more natural shape would be excellent for me. Should I just pull the pin and get one? Will cost me about $70 to get one from Amazon as I'm in Australia.


----------



## zeflow

After looking at the pictures I feel like it closely resembles the xai shape. With the exception of the groves on m1/m2.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The Ducky Secret uses D2F-01F switches, ALPS encoder, a 32bit ARM MCU, RGB LED and is made of PBT plastic
> .


Already tried it, unfortunately it doesn't track on my hard pad. FM2015 and KPM doesn't either but EC2-A does.

Only reason I stuck with my G303 is because it works flawlessly, can't give up this glide <3.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Already tried it, unfortunately it doesn't track on my hard pad. FM2015 and KPM doesn't either but EC2-A does.


Did you change the LOD settings?


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> Is the EVGA x5 seriously that good? I like my G303 but feel that something wider and with a more natural shape would be excellent for me. Should I just pull the pin and get one? Will cost me about $70 to get one from Amazon as I'm in Australia.


It isn't perfect but near there considering its great sensor and its price is unbeatable. When I got it Amazon had a sale and it was retailing for 30 USD.

The weight could be less for its size and the glossy finish might be a turnoff (personal preference really). The mousefeet could be improved - I replaced mine. Also removed the extra side buttons, the DPI button and several plastic pieces that illuminate the light to get the weight from 85g below 70+g. There is a thread on the x5 showing similar parts that were removed.

The x5 is definitely one of those "accidental" creations that ended up great (when you consider the x3, x5L and x10 in their lineups).

The mouse addict in me is itching for the FM ambi though, that is probably just pure obsession.


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pgmichael*
> 
> We don't know how many units are available. Wouldn't be surprised if this was just another PR move to generate hype over the mouse.


Really looking for the worst in them huh? Lol


----------



## pgmichael

[deleted]


----------



## popups

Does the new FinalMouse products use IntelliMouse Explorer 4 mouse feet, IntelliMouse Explorer 3 feet or completely different design? I like the IE4 feet over the IE3 feet because they are smaller.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Did you change the LOD settings?


Yup, first thing I tried. Had the same issue like most other 3310 mice, cursor started jumping during slow swipes.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rpalmer92*
> 
> Is the EVGA x5 seriously that good?


well mine in particular had the best wheel i've ever used (i've never used an alps encoder tho). ymmv as my x5l's wheel was a bit loose.
clicks on mine were really good as well. but again ymmv...
3988 is as good as or better than 3310 (unless you use 1600dpi or higher cuz 3310 has less smoothing there. below 1600 they're both 4ms smoothing = ~2ms lag)
firmware is fine iirc. i.e. no stupidity like mcu smoothing/filtering or missing usb reports.
shape/weight is reasonable.


----------



## bruzanHD

Time to move to the FM 2016 thread!


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> 
> I hope you are prepared for this uber elite, esports, pro ultimate gaming mouse tuned for professionals with an esports grade LED that can't be turned off.


Hehe.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Lots of people asking for dimensions of the tournament pro/s1. Specs will be going up officially very shortly but off the top of my head the dimensions are approximately 126mm L - 68mm W - and 39mm H

Additional mouse feet will be available and included very soon as well.

Lastly there will be some news regarding a new feature we will be launching involving "custom" mice. This will be revealed through a press video from CES by rajiv and the marketing guys.

Kind Regards,
Jude


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Lots of people asking for dimensions of the tournament pro/s1. Specs will be going up officially very shortly but off the top of my head the dimensions are approximately 126mm L - 68mm W - and 39mm H
> 
> Additional mouse feet will be available and included very soon as well.
> 
> Lastly there will be some news regarding a new feature we will be launching involving "custom" mice. This will be revealed through a press video from CES by rajiv and the marketing guys.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


That width is great!! I knew it looked similar to the xai








I've been waiting for this mouse for years boys.


----------



## Derp

Hurry up. I can see the first non brick 3360 mouse on Amazon selling *VERY* well.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Hurry up. I can see the first non brick 3360 mouse on Amazon selling *VERY* well.


I really hope something like this happens, but I doubt it considering it won't be cheap (I assume). If it happened it would send a sign that mice like these sell, but that would go against previous experience.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well 3366 doesn't... so very very probably 3360 doesn't either


Well, the ergo FM came with additional MCU smoothing (that they denied existed then later argued was there because their pros like it more than no smoothing







) so it's entirely possible their iteration of 3360 will have MCU smoothing too.


----------



## wareya

Jude said something implying their plan was for the 3360 mouse to not have a low pass.

Translation note: "Our factory is telling us the 3360 stuff they give us won't have smoothing"


----------



## trism

Meh, too wide for my taste although if the 68 mm is from the widest point and the sides are a bit \ /, I might be interested.

Obviously that is if the implementation doesn't have flaws which is a big if.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Jude said something implying their plan was for the 3360 mouse to not have a low pass.
> 
> Translation note: "Our factory is telling us the 3360 stuff they give us won't have smoothing"


Eh, I don't put much value into anything they say at this point. Between false claims about custom IR LEDs and leaving up weight info they know to be wrong because it's better for marketing and arguing how they had no smoothing then later arguing how yeah it's there but on purpose because pros like it and reneging on what the latest iteration of the ergo model would feature, it's best to take anything they say with a grain of salt.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Meh, too wide for my taste although if the 68 mm is from the widest point and the sides are a bit \ /, I might be interested.


It does sound a tad wide. Seems like its measured at the widest point rather than the grip area.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Lots of people asking for dimensions of the tournament pro/s1. Specs will be going up officially very shortly but off the top of my head the dimensions are approximately 126mm L - 68mm W - and 39mm H
> 
> Additional mouse feet will be available and included very soon as well.
> 
> Lastly there will be some news regarding a new feature we will be launching involving "custom" mice. This will be revealed through a press video from CES by rajiv and the marketing guys.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Cool custom mouse sounds cool thanks Jude from R the info!


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

The pro is still not on sale, what in the world is Amazon doing. Lol


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Scream One and Tournament Pro will all feature 2x2 mouse feet . All the 1x1 mouse feet were nixed since they did not feel good to us or our pros.


are they the same size as the microsoft mousefeet? (1.1, 3.0, wmo)


----------



## thedogman

How is this too wide? Do you have the hands of toddlers? I wish it was like 74mm wide.


----------



## TriviumKM

68 is probably the widest area like others have already pointed out.

Dimensions seem good to me, wish it were 2mm shorter while maintaining that width and height (every short mice out is incredibly thin), but that's just my personal taste, 126 is perfectly fine.

Crossing my fingers that Final mouse doesn't screw something up.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

I doubt it's 68mm at the thumb position. That's wider than a ZA11







Dimensions are like a slightly fatter WMO. No complains here. Looking forward to the Scream One.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I really hope something like this happens, but I doubt it considering it won't be cheap (I assume). If it happened it would send a sign that mice like these sell, but that would go against previous experience.


I want to buy it. However, the MCU, the lack of portable utility tool and the price has dissuaded me from purchasing it so far.

Some will say why you buy Zowie mice then? Well, I bought the 3090 Zowie mice, not the 3310 mice. I didn't buy the 3310 mice because they still use the same MCU, don'd offer a configuration tool and they are still asking a lot for it. I don't really want to buy another Zowie until they redesign all their products and use a 3360.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Meh, too wide for my taste although if the 68 mm is from the widest point and the sides are a bit \ /, I might be interested.
> 
> Obviously that is if the implementation doesn't have flaws which is a big if.


The WMO is ~66mm, the IMO is ~68mm, the FK is ~64mm and the AM is ~65mm. That's the widest part of the mouse, which is at the rear.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Jude said something implying their plan was for the 3360 mouse to not have a low pass.
> 
> Translation note: "Our factory is telling us the 3360 stuff they give us won't have smoothing"


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Just a quick update. I have a lot more info now so this should clarify a lot of questions. The 2016 tournament ambi and classic ergo are being released and unveiled tonight. The tournament ambi Amazon page is actually already up before the new site is so if you care for pictures before everyone else you can find those...
> 
> The scream one will be coming a few weeks from now and will be equipped in two models. A 3310 version and a 3360 version which uses *a new controller and custom implementation without the low pass filter.* This will be unveiled in a couple weeks. 3360 weight is a bit heavier at 81-82 ish grams prewiring.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


----------



## wmoftw

I think I'm going to guinea pig this mouse, going to give the Tournament Pro a shot because of the shell. I guess we check amazon non-stop until it's up?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> I think I'm going to guinea pig this mouse, going to give the Tournament Pro a shot because of the shell. I guess we check amazon non-stop until it's up?


Pretty much, They said in twitter yesterday that it shouldn't be long, whatever that means.

All this 'announcement' stuff & they aren't up to go.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> I think I'm going to guinea pig this mouse, going to give the Tournament Pro a shot because of the shell. I guess we check amazon non-stop until it's up?


Wouldn't it be better to wait for the Scream edition? That is supposed to have the 3360, a new MCU without the filtering code, Japanese made switches, 1000Hz and an ALPS encoder.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to wait for the Scream edition? That is supposed to have the 3360, a new MCU without the filtering code, Japanese made switches, 1000Hz and an ALPS encoder.


sensor is the same as what I use now (za13) so we'll see how it feels. I am curious about the filtering, but I've always played 500hz so I'm fine with that, plus as long as the clicks aren't stiff FK clicks I'll be happy. I can always ebay it for $10 less if I don't like it


----------



## qsxcv

or for $50 more if it goes out of stock









actually it's possible to (exactly) emulate the filtering/smoothing by coding it into this


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to wait for the Scream edition? That is supposed to have the 3360, a new MCU without the filtering code, Japanese made switches, 1000Hz and an ALPS encoder.


Pretty much the only reason to not wait for the scream version is if you assume it'll be $100 or something.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> or for $50 more if it goes out of stock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actually it's possible to (exactly) emulate the filtering/smoothing by coding it into this


oh man good point.... someone will definitely want it if it's out of stock. I tried the FM15, it was alright just big for my hands. sensor did feel odd but if I can hit things I don't care. this ambi version will be a nice test.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Pretty much the only reason to not wait for the scream version is if you assume it'll be $100 or something.


also time is a factor, if it gets delayed even two months that means its four months away? maybe I'm just impatient to try something new. the new benq zowie mice didn't fix stiff clicks so the search continues


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Pretty much the only reason to not wait for the scream version is if you assume it'll be $100 or something.


https://twitter.com/finalmouse/status/685644030470950912
Quote:


> "Countdown has begun.. just days until the headshot machine himself unveils the #ScreamOne @Titan_ScreaM #revolution"


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> https://twitter.com/finalmouse/status/685644030470950912


oh no e-sports marketing amirite guys /s


----------



## Klopfer

hmmm
I think now i must buy it ...
...
last time i was watching a stream from Mouzsports Player Niko ( using Zowie EC2A ) he tells everytime he is using 450CPI with his EC2A ...
I was wondering how?
but he tell it , this mouse has 450CPI step like all Zowie Mices ...
OK
Pro's are right
...
less money into marketing more money into building .... or cheaper Price ...
btw is there any actual mouse with PBT and not a Ducky ?
PBT feels so much better for me ...


----------



## Zibv

My current mouse has never started a revolution, it's holding me back from going pro #esports #20RWSwithScreamOne #revolution


----------



## Sencha

"made for pros, built for hoes"

I'm available for hire.


----------



## trism

I hope the QC will be better this time. Finalmouse is still the only mouse I have had to add wiring for. The connection to the ground plane of two of the button ground pins was broken...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thedogman*
> 
> How is this too wide? Do you have the hands of toddlers? I wish it was like 74mm wide.


My hand length is about the average and the width is a bit above the average. I claw grip, picture in the spoiler. If I keep my hand as it is relaxed, the distance between my pinkie tip to the thumb is much less than 6 cm. The wider the mouse is, the more my hand starts to cramp.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Pretty much the only reason to not wait for the scream version is if you assume it'll be $100 or something.


It'll be more expensive than the rest of the FM. Has to be. Wouldn't be surprised if it's stupidly expensive. The marketing and hype surrounding it is 'unreal'.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

If the price is $100 and the Q&A stays the same, great hilarity will ensue.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> If the price is $100 and the Q&A stays the same, great hilarity will ensue.


actually nvm. Might be $99 considering Scream has to be remunerated too, with all the BS premium that confers to a mouse.


----------



## xIC3x

Is the 'TOURNAMENT PRO' the ambi or will there be a different mouse coming out model 'ambi'?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xIC3x*
> 
> Is the 'TOURNAMENT PRO' the ambi or will there be a different mouse coming out model 'ambi'?


There is no ambi version, it's a symmetrical mouse. And yes, Tournament pro is its name. Check the website.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> There is no ambi version, it's a symmetrical mouse. And yes, Tournament pro is its name. Check the website.


It's a moot point now that the name has changed but honestly it's not truly symmetrical either for the same reason it's not truly ambidextrous.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> It's a moot point now that the name has changed but honestly it's not truly symmetrical either for the same reason it's not truly ambidextrous.


True, but I feel like symmetrical describes the mouse better than ambi. It is more symmetrical than it is ambidextrous, if that makes sense. The shape is ambidextrous, but the mouse altogether as a package isn't







If that makes sense.


----------



## a_ak57

"Ambi-shaped" works well enough I think.


----------



## Axaion

Since youre all nit-picking shape so much how about calling it

gender fluid otherkin mouse that sexually identifies as a pair of cooking pans shape?


----------



## wareya

Is the only difference between the sides the side buttons or something?


----------



## trism

Does anyone have the firmware flasher which fixes the varying CPI bug for the first version of the mouse (non-SE)?


----------



## wareya

You have to email support if you were unlucky enough to get one of the very first mice.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> You have to email support if you were unlucky enough to get one of the very first mice.


It also could brick your mouse when you use it. That's what happened to me and they sent me a summer edition for free to replace it.


----------



## qsxcv

well if i can understand correctly, he's not actually planning to use the flasher... he just wants the file


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello,

The width I mentioned is intact from the widest point on the bottom of the mouse.

The price point for the scream one has already been set and ready since it's not too far from release. Unless something has recently changed that I'm not aware of the price is $76.99 for the 3360 scream one. 3 year warranty is still included on the scream one as well.

Starting next week I'll be working on the next shape which we will be releasing with the scream two and it's non scream counterpart in 6 months. I got a lot of great input on the ambi from this community which is part of the reason we believe it has turned out so well. We would like to engage in similar discussions for the next model.

At the moment we are leaning towards an IE 3.0 eque shape because it fills the next obvious void in the shape lineup (ergonomic without grip groove) and also because scream is a heavy advocate of the shape. Right now we would greatly appreciate input on siZe, materials, certain curvatures, etc... We think the IE 3.0 may be too large so we want to reduce the size and also most likely reduce the curvature. And obviously the weight needs to be kept down.

Keep in mind we are in the brainstorming phase so right now I'll just be absorbing any and all input I get.

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> The width I mentioned is intact from the widest point on the bottom of the mouse.
> 
> The price point for the scream one has already been set and ready since it's not too far from release. Unless something has recently changed that I'm not aware of the price is $76.99 for the 3360 scream one. 3 year warranty is still included on the scream one as well.
> 
> Starting next week I'll be working on the next shape which we will be releasing with the scream two and it's non scream counterpart in 6 months. I got a lot of great input on the ambi from this community which is part of the reason we believe it has turned out so well. We would like to engage in similar discussions for the next model.
> 
> At the moment we are leaning towards an IE 3.0 eque shape because it fills the next obvious void in the shape lineup (ergonomic without grip groove) and also because scream is a heavy advocate of the shape. Right now we would greatly appreciate input on siZe, materials, certain curvatures, etc... We think the IE 3.0 may be too large so we want to reduce the size and also most likely reduce the curvature. And obviously the weight needs to be kept down.
> 
> Keep in mind we are in the brainstorming phase so right now I'll just be absorbing any and all input I get.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


$76.99

top kek


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> The width I mentioned is intact from the widest point on the bottom of the mouse.
> 
> The price point for the scream one has already been set and ready since it's not too far from release. Unless something has recently changed that I'm not aware of the price is $76.99 for the 3360 scream one. 3 year warranty is still included on the scream one as well.
> 
> Starting next week I'll be working on the next shape which we will be releasing with the scream two and it's non scream counterpart in 6 months. I got a lot of great input on the ambi from this community which is part of the reason we believe it has turned out so well. We would like to engage in similar discussions for the next model.
> 
> At the moment we are leaning towards an IE 3.0 eque shape because it fills the next obvious void in the shape lineup (ergonomic without grip groove) and also because scream is a heavy advocate of the shape. Right now we would greatly appreciate input on siZe, materials, certain curvatures, etc... We think the IE 3.0 may be too large so we want to reduce the size and also most likely reduce the curvature. And obviously the weight needs to be kept down.
> 
> Keep in mind we are in the brainstorming phase so right now I'll just be absorbing any and all input I get.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


Jude Best idea ever but I think you should just do almost an exact replica of the iem 3.0 fixing its flaws the buttons negative accel and so on and 1000 hz but as far as shae goes I really would not recommend you touch it at all. Just think about so many die hard 3.0/1.1 fans you have out there. If u basically just remake the mouse fix the flaws you guys will sell so many and im sure people who have never tried the fm brand will try it for sure. As far as materials idk thats for someone else to talk about. But please just make almost identical shape as the 3.0 and I think it will be very very popular. Also a possible idea is add a weight kit like the g502 mouse has so those die hard 3.0 fans can make the weight the same thing as the 3.0 was. I suggest making lead blocks that u can insert and lock into the bottom of the mouse. Put a 3360 in that thing and it will be a great mouse. Also i would not reduce size because I know a lot of people including myself who have huge hands and will not use the fm 2015 ergo simply because its to small. I think this intellifinalmouse could be the perfect solution


----------



## wmoftw

agreed, 3.0 shape is tried and true. same with a mx300 shape, wmo shape, etc. 3.0 had an iffy scroll wheel and bad side buttons, other than that it was pretty solid. fix those issues and people would be interested


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> $76.99
> 
> top kek


3 year warranty


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Interestingly enough Scream said the same thing. He wanted a close replica to the IE 3.0 shape.....


----------



## TburdzZ

I think he is right. The 3.0 shape is legendary and I really would not change anything but weight sensor buttons and scrollwheel. Once again I really think this is an amazing idea as long as u keep the 3.0 shape I think it will sell very very well and introduce new people who are 3.0 fans to the finalmouse brand.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Interestingly enough Scream said the same thing. He wanted a close replica to the IE 3.0 shape.....


when it comes to something like shape, I don't think there needs to be risks taken. I think 99% of players can pick a shape that's either the 3.0, WMO, IMO 1.1, or mx300 and be completely happy.

real talk, str8 up jack those shell designs and use them

also


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> 3 year warranty


Still expensive IMO


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> At the moment we are leaning towards an IE 3.0 eque shape because it fills the next obvious void in the shape lineup (ergonomic without grip groove) and also because scream is a heavy advocate of the shape. Right now we would greatly appreciate input on siZe, materials, certain curvatures, etc... We think the IE 3.0 may be too large so we want to reduce the size and also most likely reduce the curvature. And obviously the weight needs to be kept down.
> 
> Keep in mind we are in the brainstorming phase so right now I'll just be absorbing any and all input I get.


Material-wise, the top surface of the regular FM is OK. it's nice and grippy and not too weird.

TBH, I don't know why people are so fussy with the material. As long as it's not a mirror finish, like the MX518 upper shell, and that it doesn't affect lifting the mouse. I do like the Alcor finish though. The Zowie finishes are good, except the EC1 Evo, that felt strangely 'powdery', micro-textured, and not very grippy.

A large, but light mouse, with proven ergonomics like an exact replica of the IE3 sounds good, I guess. Would be interesting to hear what IE3 fans have to say about the 'flaws' that could improve the original design (my guess, material wasn't a favorite). And it's got lots of fans too.

And, why not use regular Microsoft feet. Makes it easier to replace them with alternatives, and they seem to work / be popular.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> Material-wise, the top surface of the regular FM is OK. it's nice and grippy and not too weird.
> 
> TBH, I don't know why people are so fussy with the material. As long as it's not a mirror finish, like the MX518 upper shell, and that it doesn't affect lifting the mouse. I do like the Alcor finish though. The Zowie finishes are good, except the EC1 Evo, that felt strangely 'powdery', micro-textured, and not very grippy.
> 
> A large, but light mouse, with proven ergonomics like the IE3 sounds good, I guess. Would be interesting to hear what IE3 fans have to say about the 'flaws' that could improve the original design (my guess, material wasn't a favorite). And it's got lots of fans too.
> 
> And, why not use regular Microsoft feet. Makes it easier to replace them with alternatives, and they seem to work / be popular.


Very good point on the mouse feet.

Also for top i like the current material like he said but for sides maybe rubber or even just use the same material thats on the top for the sides.

Another option is the material that the Logitech g400s has on its top. That is my personal favorite.

I still think there should be a way to install weight blocks in the bottom to make the weight similar to the 3.0 so that 3.0 fans can have it the way its always been.


----------



## TburdzZ

My brain is legit exploding over this itellifinalmouse idea thing and the scream one symetrical mouse release SOOOOO HYPED.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Still expensive IMO


for some yes, for others no. the main point to consider is what it is vs what's on the market. in terms of good ambi mice, they are few and far between. FK clicks are stiff and the ZA shape has a big back hump, everything else is arguably bad or has major flaws. FK2 is already $65, ZA mice are in the $70+ range as well. $75 for a (potentially) solid ambi mouse is worth it.

this is also coming from someone who has to pay with a bad exchange rage ($74.99USD / 0.69 = $108 CDN)


----------



## Zibv

So the ScreamOne is the same shape as the Tournament Pro?
Will the Scream One also have LED lit logo and mouse wheel?


----------



## bruzanHD

PBT would be nice.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> this is also coming from someone who has to pay with a bad exchange rage ($74.99USD / 0.69 = $108 CDN)


Same. As I've already posted here, that's how much the FM would cost me: http://i.imgur.com/osMk5f3.jpg
Considering that 1USD = 4,03BRL (It used to be ~2BRL 1 year ago), it would cost me 579,92BRL. That's almost a minimum wage in here lmao.
Amazon is the only way to get this mouse, they'd be way cheaper for me if I was buying it on ebay or any other place, including a physical store in my country.

But yeah, there's the fact that they don't have any kind of competition. But I still think that they should charge less for that mouse, especially because they're a new company and they don't even have a software or anything that would cost them a lot. And it doesn't change the fact that Zowie is overpriced as well, but at least they've been around for quite some time and they're a well known brand. Oh, and the ZA is 65$ on Amazon, all the other ones are 60$. The EC1-A is kinda overpriced there, but you can find it for 60$ in other places.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Same. As I've already posted here, that's how much the FM would cost me: http://i.imgur.com/osMk5f3.jpg
> Considering that 1USD = 4,03BRL (It used to be ~2BRL 1 year ago), it would cost me 579,92BRL. That's almost a minimum wage in here lmao.
> Amazon is the only way to get this mouse, they'd be way cheaper for me if I was buying it on ebay or any other place, including a physical store in my country.
> 
> But yeah, there's the fact that they don't have any kind of competition. But I still think that they should charge less for that mouse, especially because they're a new company and they don't even have a software or anything that would cost them a lot. And it doesn't change the fact that Zowie is overpriced as well, but at least they've been around for quite some time and they're a well known brand.


look into reshipping websites like reship or myusa, you're getting screwed from a $70 import fee which is too high.

also the extra money leaves them capital to develop other mice like the 3.0 Jude is talking about here. As they sell more, they can probably drop the price of the mouse. they aren't dealing with the same costs as other existing well established companies making mice


----------



## aayman_farzand

What's the price of the non-Scream 3310 Tournament pro?


----------



## wmoftw

to give input on shell materials, the ZA series has a nice textured feel that isn't as slippery as the FK series. it's nice. Plastic like the WMO also feels nice. No glossy sides please, I would sand them down anyways to make it feel like the side of a logitech G5 or something

http://www.qj.net/qjnet/nintendo-ds/hate-gloss-sandpaper-has-the-answer.html


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> look into reshipping websites like reship or myusa, you're getting screwed from a $70 import fee which is too high.
> 
> also the extra money leaves them capital to develop other mice like the 3.0 Jude is talking about here. As they sell more, they can probably drop the price of the mouse. they aren't dealing with the same costs as other existing well established companies making mice


Well, since the first Finalmouse they've been charging 67$ for it, back in the days when it was just a chinese mouse rebranded with a poor build quality...
I haven't seen a price drop yet, not even on the old models with improved build quality.


----------



## ro77en

3.0 shape a tad smaller would be peeeeeerfect!!!


----------



## zekron

You shouldn't make it smaller because basicly all the mice you produce atm are on the smaller side ,but if you will make it smaller in such a way that it feels basicly the same size(hard to describe what I mean).


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> PBT would be nice.


Thats may be a favourable feature for some, but it will be "brick"-heavy


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

No fingertip grip mouse? Interest lost again


----------



## zeflow

So does anyone know if the tournament pro will be available tomorrow??


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> So does anyone know if the tournament pro will be available tomorrow??


We have no idea, really at all.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> At the moment we are leaning towards an IE 3.0 eque shape because it fills the next obvious void in the shape lineup (ergonomic without grip groove) and also because scream is a heavy advocate of the shape. Right now we would greatly appreciate input on siZe, materials, certain curvatures, etc... We think the IE 3.0 may be too large so we want to reduce the size and also most likely reduce the curvature. And obviously the weight needs to be kept down.
> 
> Keep in mind we are in the brainstorming phase so right now I'll just be absorbing any and all input I get.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


As someone who learned how to solder just so i could fix the switches on my.. 6th? IME 3.0

Please, dont make it smaller, actually, dont even fiddle with the shape, it has a godly shape in all ways, that includes the very light groove on the right side too.
On materials, really do the same as the original 3.0, rubber -coating- sides (non soap coating) and rough plastic on top.

It just needs an update hardware wise, new sensor, switches, mousewheel, and sidebuttons as the ones on it are kinda.. meh.

But the shape it has is perfect, same goes for size.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> As someone who learned how to solder just so i could fix the switches on my.. 6th? IME 3.0
> 
> Please, dont make it smaller, actually, dont even fiddle with the shape, it has a godly shape in all ways, that includes the very light groove on the right side too.
> On materials, really do the same as the original 3.0, rubber -coating- sides (non soap coating) and rough plastic on top.
> 
> It just needs an update hardware wise, new sensor, switches, mousewheel, and sidebuttons as the ones on it are kinda.. meh.
> 
> But the shape it has is perfect, same goes for size.


Yeah I really liked the IME 3.0's build, the gloss on the top made it very easy to keep nice and maintained without having to scrape any residue from sweat off, instead you can just rub it off, the IME 3.0's ergonomic shape was kind of meh for me because I'm left handed (or...was left handed, I started using my right hand recently to conform with everyone else and get more mouse choices.) but everything was really rather...nice, despite the mushy side buttons and sketchy scroll wheel, I really felt it had a good build quality, though I wish instead of the mouse buttons having a cut about 1/4th down the mouse they were part of the shell like most modern mice.


----------



## Junki3e

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> 3 year warranty


But not for people in asia who still have to pay shipping fees for RMA...


----------



## PU skunk

Can you just re-tool a microsoft design or is that design infringement.
Well i guess Steelseries did it.


----------



## jtl999

Xai?


----------



## popups

I haven't used a IE3 before. I only used a DeathAdder, EC1 and EC2. So, I only know what could improve on those mice. I would need to try a IE3 to give suggestions based on that particular design.

I have heard people complain about the shape of the IE3. For instance, the top right corner and button placement. I don't think a direct copy would be a great idea (I'm not talking about legal reasons).

I would make changes to the IMO and the WMO. I wouldn't want a direct copy of those mice even though I like them. There are certain things that are good and thing that could be improved.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

G9X


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> to give input on shell materials, the ZA series has a nice textured feel that isn't as slippery as the FK series. it's nice. Plastic like the WMO also feels nice. No glossy sides please, I would sand them down anyways to make it feel like the side of a logitech G5 or something
> 
> http://www.qj.net/qjnet/nintendo-ds/hate-gloss-sandpaper-has-the-answer.html


It would be nice if the textured plastic of the IMO and WMO was more aggressive. Same goes for the G302/3. I think a textured plastic would last longer than the coatings used on modern mice. With better plastics it would last longer.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> You shouldn't make it smaller because basicly all the mice you produce atm are on the smaller side ,but if you will make it smaller in such a way that it feels basicly the same size(hard to describe what I mean).


It depends on the shape. Most of the time you don't use the entire length of a mouse because the shape doesn't allow you to. I don't use the entire length of the WMO, FK, AM, etc.


----------



## qsxcv

wmo is quite old, but i've seen a fair share of used wmos (in libraries and whatever) where the texture is completely gone. seeing how my keycaps have worn, probably the same thing happens with uncoated abs in general.

did logitech introduce a new coating for the g402/502/303? i wonder how durable it will be.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> wmo is quite old, but i've seen a fair share of used wmos (in libraries and whatever) where the texture is completely gone. seeing how my keycaps have worn, probably the same thing happens with uncoated abs in general.
> 
> did logitech introduce a new coating for the g402/502/303? i wonder how durable it will be.


Of course the plastic will wear smooth after a lot of contact with rough skin. I think it would take longer for that to happen to an aggressive textured plastic. Current coatings might wear off sooner. With better plastics the texture will last longer. Polymer firearms don't have the same wear problem.

The rubber type coating for my DeathAdder and Diamondback wore off in a month or two. The Mionix Avior I had started to show wear after a short time. I'm not sure how the newer hydrophobic coating wears because I don't make direct contact with the coating of my FK. The glossy coating of my AM is still there, it shows some abrasion marks, but it's still intact.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> wmo is quite old, but i've seen a fair share of used wmos (in libraries and whatever) where the texture is completely gone. seeing how my keycaps have worn, probably the same thing happens with uncoated abs in general..


those places have those mice used a lot with dirty hands and the oil gets into the mouse. i used one wmo for many many years, and it never got glossy or lost its texture. obviously it lost some, but very very minor. still has a rough feeling and a good grip


----------



## PU skunk

i WAS
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> Xai?


I thought they modded a WMO, guess I was thinking of this one:

Off topic, I just recieved a "fake" WMO from here. It may be all original inside I don't know anymore but be warned these do not say "OEM 1.1a" as promised and production date was 1215. It registered as a WMO . Malfunction speed was 1m/s but it didn't feel right so it's gone.


----------



## jtl999

Takasta, of all people, sells fake WMO's?

:O


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> i WAS
> I thought they modded a WMO, guess I was thinking of this one:
> 
> Off topic, I just recieved a "fake" WMO from here. It may be all original inside I don't know anymore but be warned these do not say "OEM 1.1a" as promised and production date was 1215. It registered as a WMO . Malfunction speed was 1m/s but it didn't feel right so it's gone.


Takasta sells legit WMOs and even posts here at times.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> i WAS
> I thought they modded a WMO, guess I was thinking of this one:
> 
> Off topic, I just recieved a "fake" WMO from here. It may be all original inside I don't know anymore but be warned these do not say "OEM 1.1a" as promised and production date was 1215. It registered as a WMO . Malfunction speed was 1m/s but it didn't feel right so it's gone.


Did you own a WMO before or was that your first one? Did you check the PCBs to see if it was original?

The thing that bothers me about the MLT-04 mice is the low CPI. It's a hassle to make small corrections/slow movements.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> those places have those mice used a lot with dirty hands and the oil gets into the mouse. i used one wmo for many many years, and it never got glossy or lost its texture. obviously it lost some, but very very minor. still has a rough feeling and a good grip


I have problems lifting the IO an WMO when my hands are dry or after I washed them.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It's a hassle to make small corrections/small movements.


agree, i'm fairly certain the mlt04 has some sort of deadzone for 1-pixel movements. try to write abcdefg as small as possible in mspaint with a mlt04 mouse and compare against am010 for instance. i find am010 (500dpi) and 3366 (400dpi) to be much more natural.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> agree, i'm fairly certain the mlt04 has some sort of deadzone for 1-pixel movements. try to write abcdefg as small as possible in mspaint with a mlt04 mouse and compare against am010 for instance. i find am010 (500dpi) and 3366 (400dpi) to be much more natural.


The 3090 Zowie mice felt somewhat similar to the MLT-04 mice on the "450" step, but my Zowies are more like 500/+ CPI. I think the Avago/Pixart sensors with larger arrays will feel more responsive on a lower CPI setting.

I don't understand why people would choose to use 400 or 450. At least use 800 or 900.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Why not 400/450 dpi? Easier to sync sensitivity between games


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Why not 400/450 dpi? Easier to sync sensitivity between games


Quote:


> "The thing that bothers me about the MLT-04 mice is the low CPI. It's a hassle to make small corrections/slow movements."


Most people will use at least 2 sensitivity when using 400 CPI and they use higher resolutions.


----------



## pixie99

We need a G100s / MX300 shape with side buttons as well. Something like the iRocks 7810R ODM or Diamondback 3G will be nice too.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> We need a G100s / MX300 shape with side buttons as well. Something like the iRocks 7810R ODM or Diamondback 3G will be nice too.


The problem with those is that the shapes are so controversial u like it or u hate it. For a newer company like fm I think they should make a mouse like the intellimouse 3.0 as anyone can get used to that shape so more of them will sell effectivly giving them more money to work on more specific mice shapes like the g303/g100s/g9 this list could go on and on u get the point.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> Takasta, of all people, sells fake WMO's?
> 
> :O


Mine didn't come from him, so I can't say.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Did you own a WMO before or was that your first one? Did you check the PCBs to see if it was original?


What do you look for inside? There's so much confusion over "real", "fake".
Returning today because of false advertising really...No OEM 1.1a on bottom like in the picture.
I had a IE 3.0 for years and an old Intelimouse from work which feels similar.
This one I dunno, seemed heavy for a WMO, heavier than FM, and didn't bring back memories.
I may just wait for this S1 edition.


----------



## TheGMT

In what world is a 3.0 shape a more universally compatible shape than a G100's? There's no way that's true.


----------



## trism

IE3.0 is definitely not more universally compatible. It's huge for the average sized hand and thus only works in palm grip for anyone else than the people with relatively huge hands. That being said there really aren't any universally compatible mice.


----------



## TburdzZ

For me i think the g100s feels horrible and a lot of my friends agree but i guess some people hate the shape of the ie 3.0 well we all are entitled to our opinions, I just think there are more IE 3.0 fans then g100s


----------



## trism

[citation needed]

Really no point in making such assumptions. That's why most companies offer different shapes. There is no such thing as a "universally compatible mouse" because of too many possible variables. However, FM already offers an "ambi" shape so maybe IE3.0 shape would be a decent addition. I would personally like a smaller version of the "Ambi", something like Kinzu-ZA13. For some reason there aren't any this small mice with good sensors.


----------



## kyotkyotkyot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Lastly there will be some news regarding a new feature we will be launching involving "custom" mice. This will be revealed through a press video from CES by rajiv and the marketing guys.


I can't find this vid?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> did logitech introduce a new coating for the g402/502/303? i wonder how durable it will be.


my G402/302 shows signs of wear where my fingers click MB1/2. Like any of my other logitech mice..

this is why i perfer gloss coats, not a single sign of wear on any of my glossy mice.

still can't wait for this finalmouse tournament pro, looks beast and lightweight!


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Still awaiting the tournament pro on Amazon, the heck was the point of the press release with literally no new product? lol getting ridiculous.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Still awaiting the tournament pro on Amazon, the heck was the point of the press release with literally no new product? lol getting ridiculous.


srsly. when will they take my $$$


----------



## Nilizum

I thought the Sensei shape was pretty compatible with a lot of people.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> I thought the Sensei shape was pretty compatible with a lot of people.


shape was alright, weight was unbearable. fk shape I think is better than sensei


----------



## Aventadoor

FK1 with more girth!


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> The width I mentioned is intact from the widest point on the bottom of the mouse.
> 
> The price point for the scream one has already been set and ready since it's not too far from release. Unless something has recently changed that I'm not aware of the price is $76.99 for the 3360 scream one. 3 year warranty is still included on the scream one as well.
> 
> Starting next week I'll be working on the next shape which we will be releasing with the scream two and it's non scream counterpart in 6 months. I got a lot of great input on the ambi from this community which is part of the reason we believe it has turned out so well. We would like to engage in similar discussions for the next model.
> 
> At the moment we are leaning towards an IE 3.0 eque shape because it fills the next obvious void in the shape lineup (ergonomic without grip groove) and also because scream is a heavy advocate of the shape. Right now we would greatly appreciate input on siZe, materials, certain curvatures, etc... We think the IE 3.0 may be too large so we want to reduce the size and also most likely reduce the curvature. And obviously the weight needs to be kept down.
> 
> Keep in mind we are in the brainstorming phase so right now I'll just be absorbing any and all input I get.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


Hello Jude,

Wasn't the tournament pro supposed to be released by now?

Thanks


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Still awaiting the tournament pro on Amazon, the heck was the point of the press release with literally no new product? lol getting ridiculous.


Ahhh... So you can get your money ready and sit there ready to pounce.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> Mine didn't come from him, so I can't say.
> 
> What do you look for inside? There's so much confusion over "real", "fake".
> Returning today because of false advertising really...No OEM 1.1a on bottom like in the picture.
> I had a IE 3.0 for years and an old Intelimouse from work which feels similar.
> This one I dunno, seemed heavy for a WMO, heavier than FM, and didn't bring back memories.
> I may just wait for this S1 edition.


The WMO is ~80g. That's ~5g lighter than a Zowie AM. The paint could add some weight.

You should be able to tell if the PCB isn't a genuine Microsoft product. Those mice should be refurbished Microsoft mice.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Ahhh... So you can get your money ready and sit there ready to pounce.


Well of course


----------



## Maximillion

Meh, the delay ultimately just makes waiting for the 3360 Scream One more logical.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The WMO is ~80g. That's ~5g lighter than a Zowie AM. The paint could add some weight.


I thought the cases were re-made. Well it's shipped anyway. They should give me one from work.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Meh, the delay ultimately just makes waiting for the 3360 Scream One more logical.


They both would be produced at the same time. At least that would be the logical thing to do.

Production usually takes about 1-2 months per batch. The distribution time is "random" per company.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> @qsxcv
> 
> I've said before we have already been playing and testing with it for a while. You will see a firmware without it on a different mcu with the beta samples of the new sensor before the variants even are available. Hopefully we have beta samples sent out by next week. We are waiting on ATC reps to get more chips to us.


status?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> status?


From what I understand, the Scream1 and Scream2 will be the only variants without the filtering. The other variants will continue to have the filtering, 500Hz and previous MCU.


----------



## jtl999

What exactly is the "mcu smoothing" in the FinalMouse vs other smoothing in 3310 mice that other people talk about? any difference?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> What exactly is the "mcu smoothing" in the FinalMouse vs other smoothing in 3310 mice that other people talk about? any difference?


Your hand naturally jitters abit. The sensor gives a false sense of accuracy by smothing jitter but not lines, don't know how it's possible but that's how it feels.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I thought jitter only serves to interpolate sensor data and delay your cursor movements


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> From what I understand


i know, i was asking about the "beta samples"
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> What exactly is the "mcu smoothing" in the FinalMouse vs other smoothing in 3310 mice that other people talk about? any difference?


first, the 3310 sensor itself has a little bit of smoothing. basically it does an arithmetic average of the last ~8 frames or so of raw data.
the finalmouse's firmware applies an exponential moving average to the data it receives from the sensor. (most?) other 3310 mice don't do this.

too lazy to find the posts where i explain/find evidence for all this
the net result is that tracking is "delayed" by 4ms. about half from the 3310's inherent smoothing, and half from the finalmouse's firmware.
i say "delayed" because smoothing doesn't feel the same as an additional 4ms of input lag, but if you plot the mouse's motion in mousetester/comparator, the graphs are delayed by about that much relative to mice with with no/minimal smoothing e.g. g100s


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i know, i was asking about the "beta samples"
> first, the 3310 sensor itself has a little bit of smoothing. basically it does an arithmetic average of the last ~8 frames or so of raw data.
> the finalmouse's firmware applies an exponential moving average to the data it receives from the sensor. (most?) other 3310 mice don't do this.
> 
> too lazy to find the posts where i explain/find evidence for all this
> the net result is that tracking is "delayed" by 4ms. about half from the 3310's inherent smoothing, and half from the finalmouse's firmware.
> i say "delayed" because smoothing doesn't feel the same as an additional 4ms of input lag, but if you plot the mouse's motion in mousetester/comparator, the graphs are delayed by about that much relative to mice with with no/minimal smoothing e.g. g100s


is this scream finalmouse good and better then the other 3310 or 3366?


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> is this scream finalmouse good and better then the other 3310 or 3366?


Scream1 specs wise is better that any 3310 mice due to its superior sensor.If the 3360 is basicly 1:1 to the 3366 it will be as good as any other 3366/3360 mice and the performance will depend on FM's implementation.

On the other hand if FM fail to properly integrate and configure the 3366 it may yield bad results compared to the 3310 or the 3360/3366 competitors.

It will all depend on the implementation.


----------



## DrSebWilkes

I think though, screaM has personality and looks that people like. Sure he is overrated, but then what's the point of getting someone no one really cares about ... *cough* adren *cough*.

This way, I feel that at least it doesn't look like they're cheaping out.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DrSebWilkes*
> 
> I think though, screaM has personality and looks that people like. Sure he is overrated, but then what's the point of getting someone no one really cares about ... *cough* adren *cough*.
> 
> This way, I feel that at least it doesn't look like they're cheaping out.


I think Scream is a dull character, I mean the twitch Scream, not him irl. During his streams he just plays pugs, then maybe plays MM or smth with his mates maybe some subs.He just lands 1-2 albeit pretty sick headshots and everyone goes wild.

Buy scream's mouse = I'll shoot just as good as him.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

No one here in the right mind is going to buy the scream 1 because scream uses it. All we care about is the specs.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> No one here in the right mind is going to buy the scream 1 because scream uses it. All we care about is the specs.


People do it with jordans, Kobes, lebrons & curry's all the time. Bes'Believe someone will buy a scream 1 because scream uses it.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> People do it with jordans, Kobes, lebrons & curry's all the time. Bes'Believe someone will buy a scream 1 because scream uses it.


I think he means no one here on this forum or sub forum. it will still do well since it has another layer of marketing on it (scream). he does well with fans


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> I think he means no one here on this forum or sub forum. it will still do well since it has another layer of marketing on it (scream). he does well with fans


Ohhhh I know what he means & i still bet my bottom dollar someone here will. Lol


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

I didn't know who the hell Scream was until the current 3060 hysteria. I clicked on his twitter but I can't remember what he looks like already lol.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> I didn't know who the hell Scream was until the current 3060 hysteria. I clicked on his twitter but I can't remember what he looks like already lol.


Probably because you don't play CSGO, or because you started playing it a few months ago.
He was a really good player back in the days. He's still a good player, but he's not as good as he was before, and now there's more good teams and players competing as well.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> I think he means no one here on this forum or sub forum. it will still do well since it has another layer of marketing on it (scream). he does well with fans
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhh I know what he means & i still bet my bottom dollar someone here will. Lol
Click to expand...

He will be labeled a heretic and burned on an imaginary stake while being poked with imaginary pitchforks


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> He will be labeled a heretic and burned on an imaginary stake while being poked with imaginary pitchforks


i m planning to buy screamone and g-sr or qck heavy...someone had both and can help me to pick the best one for control and accurate moviment?i know both are "control" oriented mousepad...in my country qck heavy 28 euro and gsr 33 then price isn t a problem..i have read gsr is mpre consistent in all surface and have a little less friction...have same control and precision?


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> No one here in the right mind is going to buy the scream 1 because scream uses it. All we care about is the specs.


I wouldn't even dare to think that.I'll just gave the "StatTrack-Vibrobrickmice" lover "pleb" perspective..


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> i m planning to buy screamone and g-sr or qck heavy...someone had both and can help me to pick the best one for control and accurate moviment?i know both are "control" oriented mousepad...in my country qck heavy 28 euro and gsr 33 then price isn t a problem..i have read gsr is mpre consistent in all surface and have a little less friction...have same control and precision?


The GSR has inconsistency in surface "density" during weather/humidity change.Its faster but I cant stop as fast as on a QCK on the other hand the speed accel is mind bogling for me atleast.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> The GSR has inconsistency in surface "density" during weather/humidity change.Its faster but I cant stop as fast as on a QCK on the other hand the speed accel is mind bogling for me atleast.


G-SR feels like it's even faster than Goliathus speed to be honest.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> G-SR feels like it's even faster than Goliathus speed to be honest.


Used both, but I had the older Goliathus and they felt somewhat close but the static friction is way lower on the GSR imo


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> He will be labeled a heretic and burned on an imaginary stake while being poked with imaginary pitchforks


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> The GSR has inconsistency in surface "density" during weather/humidity change.Its faster but I cant stop as fast as on a QCK on the other hand the speed accel is mind bogling for me atleast.


i like control mousepad...i have goliathus speed and can t stop my mouse properly...looking for better control mousepad for cs go...need mousepad is smooth with best accuracy and mouse stop precision..is better gsr or heavy?


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> i like control mousepad...i have goliathus speed and can t stop my mouse properly...looking for better control mousepad for cs go...need mousepad is smooth with best accuracy and mouse stop precision..is better gsr or heavy?


Heavy>GSR based on what you look for is better because its more consistent,allows to stop faster ime


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Heavy>GSR based on what you look for is better because its more consistent,allows to stop faster ime


ty!but i can flick or follow a moving target without problem?


----------



## munchzilla

I had problems making initial movements on qck heavy, hard to track for me. flickshots okay but not at the speed id like.


----------



## wmoftw

still unavailable on amazon...


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *munchzilla*
> 
> I had problems making initial movements on qck heavy, hard to track for me. flickshots okay but not at the speed id like.


u can move mouse good in slow or little mpviment?


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *munchzilla*
> 
> I had problems making initial movements on qck heavy, hard to track for me. flickshots okay but not at the speed id like.


are u a low senser or jigh senser?


----------



## Scrimstar

Anyone get the FM16? There are gonna be two more models coming, right? Scream and Ambi|

is dis the ambi
http://www.amazon.com/FinalMouse-Finalmouse-2016-Tournament-Pro/dp/B01A8MAPY0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1452633298&sr=8-2&keywords=FinalMouse


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrimstar*
> 
> is dis the ambi
> http://www.amazon.com/FinalMouse-Finalmouse-2016-Tournament-Pro/dp/B01A8MAPY0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1452633298&sr=8-2&keywords=FinalMouse


That review though.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> That review though.


I saw that posted on Amazon this morning, i was dying. Lol


----------



## munchzilla

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> are u a low senser or jigh senser?


40ish cm/360. a bit medium. but even when trying low sens, it feels like static friction is just too high.


----------



## grandeuraliass

just got my 2016 ergo from amazon best scroll wheel ive ever felt hands down everything about the mouse is perfect except for the left click it seems to be a bit loose when i tap it lightly it makes seemingly hollow sound where as the right click is firm and makes lttle to no sound at all.....hmmm


----------



## DadeBound

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandeuraliass*
> 
> just got my 2016 ergo from amazon best scroll wheel ive ever felt hands down everything about the mouse is perfect except for the left click it seems to be a bit loose when i tap it lightly it makes seemingly hollow sound where as the right click is firm and makes lttle to no sound at all.....hmmm


I have the same thing. I press on it without actuating then lift my finger and get some light hollow sound. I thought the same on the mousewheel, better than just about all I've tried.


----------



## grandeuraliass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DadeBound*
> 
> I have the same thing. I press on it without actuating then lift my finger and get some light hollow sound. I thought the same on the mousewheel, better than just about all I've tried.


damit....prob return and go back to benq ec2a


----------



## Scrimstar

Is the Scream mouse gonna be like 3,0 / DA, or is that the Scream 2?


----------



## Zibv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrimstar*
> 
> Is the Scream mouse gonna be like 3,0 / DA, or is that the Scream 2?


The Scream one is the same shell as the Tournament Pro/ambi


----------



## Scrimstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zibv*
> 
> The Scream one is the same shell as the Tournament Pro/ambi


so it is just like a decal









Anyone else who got the FM16? So it has a good wheel and weird left click?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrimstar*
> 
> so it is just like a decal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else who got the FM16? So it has a good wheel and weird left click?


If you read a few pages back you will get all the answers.


----------



## grandeuraliass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandeuraliass*
> 
> damit....prob return and go back to benq ec2a


yeah weird left click so bummed its perfect otherwise


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> He will be labeled a heretic and burned on an imaginary stake while being poked with imaginary pitchforks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> The GSR has inconsistency in surface "density" during weather/humidity change.Its faster but I cant stop as fast as on a QCK on the other hand the speed accel is mind bogling for me atleast.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i like control mousepad...i have goliathus speed and can t stop my mouse properly...looking for better control mousepad for cs go...need mousepad is smooth with best accuracy and mouse stop precision..is better gsr or heavy?
Click to expand...

Artisan Hien


----------



## ncck

I've been using the hyperx fury mousepad from amazon. Better than both the g-sr and qck heavy for me.


----------



## Scrimstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> If you read a few pages back you will get all the answers.


really? you can obv tell i read the pages, I only got a few small details, and none of it is concrete. i wouldnt know that there is a scream 2 3.0 shape









this thread has 5 topics going on at the same time, all i wanna know is the FM16 updates


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrimstar*
> 
> really? you can obv tell i read the pages, I only got a few small details, and none of it is concrete. i wouldnt know that there is a scream 2 3.0 shape
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this thread has 5 topics going on at the same time, all i wanna know is the FM16 updates


The more people ask the same questions that have been answered already the more redundant pages there is going to be.


Search This Thread
Advanced search options
Posts by user
FinalmouseJude


----------



## Scrimstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The more people ask the same questions that have been answered already the more redundant pages there is going to be.
> 
> 
> Search This Thread
> Advanced search options
> Posts by user
> FinalmouseJude


oh yeah searching is really useful when people are just getting the FM16 recently


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrimstar*
> 
> so it is just like a decal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else who got the FM16? So it has a good wheel and weird left click?


No it's not just a decal.

It has Omron switches, choice of 3360 or 3310 sensor (regular one only has 3310), ALPS encoder for scroll wheel. Not sure if the finish/design is any different.


----------



## Scrimstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> No it's not just a decal.
> 
> It has Omron switches, choice of 3360 or 3310 sensor (regular one only has 3310), ALPS encoder for scroll wheel. Not sure if the finish/design is any different.


10/$15 for 3360 and 1000hz

ez pz decision

But there is no 1000Hz FM ergo besides scream 2.0


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scrimstar*
> 
> 10/$15 for 3360 and 1000hz
> 
> ez pz decision
> 
> But there is no 1000Hz FM ergo besides scream 2.0


The Scream2 doesn't exist yet. Hence the thread about designing it.


----------



## equlix

real funny guys. http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01A8MAPY0?colid=2DD94CLU7QAD5&coliid=I1YULEULE7J7LY&ref_=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl check the reviews


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> real funny guys. http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01A8MAPY0?colid=2DD94CLU7QAD5&coliid=I1YULEULE7J7LY&ref_=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl check the reviews


Never ceases to amaze me what r0ach will do to get attention. At least the other guy made it obvious he was joking.


----------



## Scrimstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The Scream2 doesn't exist yet. Hence the thread about designing it.


l o l

3360, ofc its gonna be 1000hz


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Artisan Hien


Thats what I use myself and it's amazing.


----------



## qsxcv

in some alternate universe right now i'm writing a decently length review on amazon blasting fm in hopes of getting the "most helpful critical review" thing. fortunately for them/him, in this universe i'm preoccupied with other stuff.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> No it's not just a decal.
> 
> It has Omron switches, choice of 3360 or 3310 sensor (regular one only has 3310), ALPS encoder for scroll wheel. Not sure if the finish/design is any different.


is this for the tournament pro or the 2016 version of the ergo mouse?


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> is this for the tournament pro or the 2016 version of the ergo mouse?


Tournament pro.
The Tournament Pro has 1:1 hardware to the FM Ergo 2016/2015.The scream1 which is the same shell as the tournament pro, has a 3360, ALPS Encoder and other good stuff.

Scream1 is basicly the Tournament Pro on steroids


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Tournament pro.
> The Tournament Pro has 1:1 hardware to the FM Ergo 2016/2015.The scream1 which is the same shell as the tournament pro, has a 3360, ALPS Encoder and other good stuff.
> 
> Scream1 is basicly the Tournament Pro on steroids


Dunno why anyone would bother with the Tourney Pro TBH. Yeah it's a bit cheaper, but if you gonna spend $$ for a mouse, might as well get the good stuff (reviews pending).


----------



## CorruptBE

Yup.

Being already an owner of an FK1 & 2 I don't see much point to it either. Scream One however... will probably order one when it's out.


----------



## falcon26

On Amazon page they say the 2016 version is in stock

http://www.amazon.com/FinalMouse-Finalmouse-2016/dp/B00MX8QSLW/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1452698601&sr=1-1&keywords=final+mouse


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> Dunno why anyone would bother with the Tourney Pro TBH. Yeah it's a bit cheaper, but if you gonna spend $$ for a mouse, might as well get the good stuff (reviews pending).


Two types in my mind:
1.Those who want it cheaper (obv)
2.The ones who prefer the 3310 feel over the 3360.

But its kinda a waste-ish product tbh..


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Two types in my mind:
> 1.Those who want it cheaper (obv)
> 2.The ones who prefer the 3310 feel over the 3360.
> 
> But its kinda a waste-ish product tbh..


not really, we can determine what's good and bad for the tourny pro edition, so hopefully things would be fixed for the scream version


----------



## falcon26

Is the Finalmouse good for the fingertip type grip or fingertip claw style?


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> not really, we can determine what's good and bad for the tourny pro edition, so hopefully things would be fixed for the scream version


Weren't they going to debut the scream version in a few weeks or something? There's nothing meaningful they could change by then.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> but I imagine most people won't be saying the tourny pro isn't worth the time if the scream version is $99.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The price point for the scream one has already been set and ready since it's not too far from release. Unless something has recently changed that I'm not aware of the price is $76.99 for the 3360 scream one. 3 year warranty is still included on the scream one as well.


----------



## wmoftw

then I imagine the tourny pro will be cheaper than $76.99?


----------



## coldc0ffee

I had the 2016 but returned it. I had the high hopes that it was better build quality than the 2015 that I had returned way back when. But that didn't happen. Still sub-par construction. My hands are too large for the mouse anyway (20cm). Wobbly RMB and LMB and loose side buttons. Personally, I am staying away from this company in the future. It was the "FInalmouse" for me for all the wrong reasons. Even future Ergo iterations from this company will be overlooked by me simply because of bad experiences. Personally, I will look forward to Zowie putting out 3360 sensors in the EC lineup. EC1-A is my favorite of all time. As many of you on here, I have collected plenty of mice, and plenty more to come. This is the only one so far that when I looked at it sitting on my desk I felt major buyer's remorse and regret. Good thing for Amazon's excellent return policy


----------



## Ino.

To me the ZA11 has the best ambi shape I've ever laid my hands on. That back hump is exactly what I love about it.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Speak for yourself, but to me the ZA11 has the best ambi shape I've ever laid my hands on. That back hump is exactly what I love about it.


the ZA series has pretty much no issues except shape, which is just personal. I rather an FK shape, but can't stand the clicks. The ZA is a really solid mouse, although I'm using the ZA13 and I've heard of stiff clicks with the 12 and 11 versions. If they could make the ZA into an FK shape, oh my god $$$


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> then I imagine the tourny pro will be cheaper than $76.99?


It'll probably be the same $67 as the ergo, maybe a bit more since they say they actually designed this one and didn't just grab an OEM shell like the ergo. Either way there's not much reason to buy the tourny pro instead of the scream model given the cost is so similar. It'd be like buying the G302 instead of G303 because the former is like $10 less.


----------



## SeanyC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> It'd be like buying the G302 instead of G303 because the former is like $10 less.


Comparison game on point.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Speak for yourself, but to me the ZA11 has the best ambi shape I've ever laid my hands on. That back hump is exactly what I love about it.


I personally also love the hump, but can't use the mouse on games where tracking targets is required. I've mentioned it before, too, but yeah. To me it's still too thin. Especially za11, it's too high and long for its thinness, or the other way around. Za12 I performed better with, but still too thin. No matter how hard I claw or whatever I try, my aim still sucked vs good players.
I wish the za12 had 2-4 mm length, like the xai. Or they could make the back wider on the top, the grippable area is actually quite thin.
Literally considering SS sensei raw each day when I think about mice, even though it has a 9500.


----------



## cheeselol

http://sweetlow.orgfree.com/hidusbf.html
Quote:


> Added 2016/01/02:
> 
> 1. Driver now compatible with Windows 8, 8.1, 10. And both USB stacks supported:
> USB2.0 (USBPORT.SYS) and USB3.0 (USBXHCI.SYS)


Edit: Just tried it on my Win 10 system. All I had to to was enable test mode via

Code:



Code:


bcdedit -set TESTSIGNING ON

and hidusbf just worked. No need to manually sign drivers.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> http://sweetlow.orgfree.com/hidusbf.html
> Edit: Just tried it on my Win 10 system. All I had to to was enable test mode via
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> bcdedit -set TESTSIGNING ON
> 
> and hidusbf just worked. No need to manually sign drivers.


test mode is a problem, ESEA won't run on it (not that I use it) but it's also an issue for comp players since they can't guarantee they can even do that at LAN. that's why that mouse accel driver was an issue before too, it needed test mode. now it doesn't and that's amazing since comp players could use it at lan (as long as it's allowed in the rules). I figured if the mouse accel people got around it, maybe it would be possible for the USB overclock to do it as well. I heard the driver license is $450 a year which could be crowdfunded easily I think. I think people would much rather a simple .exe to run, rather than even trying to go into test mode. even once you're in test mode, you alienated any comp community (anti cheats won't run if the computer is in test mode)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> I had the 2016 but returned it. I had the high hopes that it was better build quality than the 2015 that I had returned way back when. But that didn't happen. Still sub-par construction. My hands are too large for the mouse anyway (20cm). Wobbly RMB and LMB and loose side buttons. Personally, I am staying away from this company in the future. It was the "FInalmouse" for me for all the wrong reasons. Even future Ergo iterations from this company will be overlooked by me simply because of bad experiences. Personally, I will look forward to Zowie putting out 3360 sensors in the EC lineup. EC1-A is my favorite of all time. As many of you on here, I have collected plenty of mice, and plenty more to come. This is the only one so far that when I looked at it sitting on my desk I felt major buyer's remorse and regret. Good thing for Amazon's excellent return policy


Their original product is an ODM offering. They didn't design it. Their new symmetrical design should be a lot better. Their new ergo shape, that's being developed, will depend on feedback.


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> test mode is a problem, ESEA won't run on it (not that I use it) but it's also an issue for comp players since they can't guarantee they can even do that at LAN. that's why that mouse accel driver was an issue before too, it needed test mode. now it doesn't and that's amazing since comp players could use it at lan (as long as it's allowed in the rules). I figured if the mouse accel people got around it, maybe it would be possible for the USB overclock to do it as well. I heard the driver license is $450 a year which could be crowdfunded easily I think. I think people would much rather a simple .exe to run, rather than even trying to go into test mode. even once you're in test mode, you alienated any comp community (anti cheats won't run if the computer is in test mode)


What mouse accel driver are you talking about?

I wonder if a USB dongle sort of device would be allowed in LAN competition. I think it may be within the realm of possibility to take a teensy and have it act as a man-in-the-middle which implements the HID protocol between the mouse and the USB controller. It could intercept the mouses device descriptor, set the report rate to 1ms, and do nothing else. It would technically be driverless.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> What mouse accel driver are you talking about?
> 
> I wonder if a USB dongle sort of device would be allowed in LAN competition. I think it may be within the realm of possibility to take a teensy and have it act as a man-in-the-middle which implements the HID protocol between the mouse and the USB controller. It could intercept the mouses device descriptor, set the report rate to 1ms, and do nothing else. It would technically be driverless.


He's talking about Povohat's QL Mouse Filter, but Povohat now uses the Interception library to do mouse accel, so no more test mode required.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> I wonder if a USB dongle sort of device would be allowed in LAN competition. I think it may be within the realm of possibility to take a teensy and have it act as a man-in-the-middle


then stick this onto it
https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/sd_adaptor.html
ez lan aimbot


----------



## jtl999

Can you say "I am flusha mahahahaha"?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> I wonder if a USB dongle sort of device would be allowed in LAN competition. I think it may be within the realm of possibility to take a teensy and have it act as a man-in-the-middle which implements the HID protocol between the mouse and the USB controller. It could intercept the mouses device descriptor, set the report rate to 1ms, and do nothing else. It would technically be driverless.


It's against the rules to have such USB devices. Your phone isn't even allowed near the computer.


----------



## cheeselol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> then stick this onto it
> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/sd_adaptor.html
> ez lan aimbot


Then hide the device under a book or something and you'll be good to go.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> Can you say "I am flusha mahahahaha"?


DelayedArtisticGuppy


----------



## aayman_farzand

How long is this going to take...

I need one ASAP, my G303 side buttons are giving out and I can't stand the grip anymore.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> How long is this going to take...
> 
> I need one ASAP, my G303 side buttons are giving out and I can't stand the grip anymore.


For which? The pro? Or the scream1?


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> For which? The pro? Or the scream1?


I want the Scream1 because all 3310 mice don't work on my hard pad. Zowie does but the old FM didn't.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cheeselol*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> then stick this onto it
> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/sd_adaptor.html
> ez lan aimbot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then hide the device under a book or something and you'll be good to go.
Click to expand...

Who's that lol.
And cant you like put a teensy inside a mouse shell or something?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Who's that lol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EIsrOYFpCg&t=3m20s


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Legit or nah?


----------



## aayman_farzand

Is today the day? Their website is down.


----------



## alphabet

Forgive me ahead of time, what exactly has changed in the FM 2016?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Is today the day? Their website is down.


We gon'see. Lol


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alphabet*
> 
> Forgive me ahead of time, what exactly has changed in the FM 2016?


Iternals/Hardware- Nothing
Shell- Changed mold to improve build quality, decrease or fix the mouse button double click, make M2 more durable..

I may forgot something


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Iternals/Hardware- Nothing
> Shell- Changed mold to improve build quality, decrease or fix the mouse button double click, make M2 more durable..
> 
> I may forgot something


If they manage to mess up the low click-delay they are dead to me.. Some people are just so bad at clicking and then they blame the mouse and mouse gets nerfed..
They will add delay so that even worst mouse users will have time to pick their finger back up in time so it doesn't register twice..

It is not right to ruin a product just because some people can't keep up the speed..


----------



## alphabet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Iternals/Hardware- Nothing
> Shell- Changed mold to improve build quality, decrease or fix the mouse button double click, make M2 more durable..
> 
> I may forgot something


Nice, as long was it was more than a name change









I remember reading something about some firmware bug or issue? Was this ever a widespread problem or just a few people experiencing issues when tracking under high speeds? Sorry I can't recall exactly what it was, but I'm just assuming it wasn't a big deal if people left it alone.


----------



## Jonagold

They have bad firmware in all their previous product that causes sensor movement delay and also inconsistency of that delay.. Called MCU smoothing or something.. Works fine if your aiming-style is slow but when having a reactive style with fast aim adjusting and micro-flicking the feel is horrible..


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> If they manage to mess up the low click-delay they are dead to me.. Some people are just so bad at clicking and then they blame the mouse and mouse gets nerfed..
> They will add delay so that even worst mouse users will have time to pick their finger back up in time so it doesn't register twice..
> 
> It is not right to ruin a product just because some people can't keep up the speed..


The double click was happening due to the shell eather having wrong deadzones or pre-travel that caused the click itself to double click or something like that.The double click issue by them was fixed by modifying the shell itself.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> They have bad firmware in all their previous product that causes sensor movement delay and also inconsistency of that delay.. Called MCU smoothing or something.. Works fine if your aiming-style is slow but when having a reactive style with fast aim adjusting and micro-flicking the feel is horrible..


Yes the MCU filtering may make it feel not as sharp/raw but I 100% assure you that you cannot feel the delay, your nerve system has more delay than the mouse.Also the 3310 itself has its own sensor inherent delay too


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Yes the MCU filtering may make it feel not as sharp/raw but I 100% assure you that you cannot feel the delay, your nerve system has more delay than the mouse.Also the 3310 itself has its own sensor inherent delay too


He's talking about mcu filtering + inherent 3310/3988 sensor delay. Add those together and you get terms like "raw sensor feel" and "precision"


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Yes the MCU filtering may make it feel not as sharp/raw but I 100% assure you that you cannot feel the delay, your nerve system has more delay than the mouse.Also the 3310 itself has its own sensor inherent delay too


It is not how it works. Every type of delay is added unto the total amount, since there are way more things causing delay incl processing time, usb, etc.. You want each thing to have as low latency as possible. You moving the mouse exercises hand-to-eye coordination where you exercise muscle memory etc. So, all of these factors+many more make up cursor behavior. You don't see it necessarily because it's the hand that does the movement. Therefore, you will feel it and this will mess up your aim/coordination, even if by a little.
Now, whether or not you can get used to it is a whole different topic. It is also highly individual. 1 ms might not be much, but 2 and above + 'cumulative' delay make a difference. Also, some people are more sensitive to these things. In the same way as some audiophiles are able to tell a difference between different headphones, some people can't tell. Same goes mice. Note that it depends on your monitor, as well.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> It is not how it works. Every type of delay is added unto the total amount, since there are way more things causing delay incl processing time, usb, etc.. You want each thing to have as low latency as possible. You moving the mouse exercises hand-to-eye coordination where you exercise muscle memory etc. So, all of these factors+many more make up cursor behavior. You don't see it necessarily because it's the hand that does the movement. Therefore, you will feel it and this will mess up your aim/coordination, even if by a little.
> Now, whether or not you can get used to it is a whole different topic. It is also highly individual. 1 ms might not be much, but 2 and above + 'cumulative' delay make a difference. Also, some people are more sensitive to these things. In the same way as some audiophiles are able to tell a difference between different headphones, some people can't tell. Same goes mice. Note that it depends on your monitor, as well.


I perfectly understand that but I failed(forgot) to realise that everyone may feel the extra ~2-4ms differently, good point!


----------



## qsxcv

it's not exactly the same as delay.
e.g. i can barely notice ~16ms input lag in a blind test, but can very easily notice 16ms smoothing, which corresponds to only a lag of 8ms in mousecomparator.


----------



## CorruptBE

I doubt we can notice 16 ms of latency as humans, but we do seem insanely good at feeling when something is "off" or out of sync.

For instance, the click delay on Zowies, I couldn't tell in a blind test with a single click. But when I started bursting (multiple clicks) ingame and compared it to other mice I instantly noticed my bursts being synced differently.


----------



## wareya

I tested myself down to 10ms latency of just cursor movement with that lua thing, but that was my limit. I only have a 60hz monitor though.

Click delay is definitely weaker than motion delay. 20ms mouse lag in an FPS makes me sick (tested by turning on compositor vsync with no flip queue, I can do that on linux) but 20ms click delay just means I have worse reflexes and have to click before/during twitching.

I think I would be able to feel down to 10ms click delay and 6-7ms mouse movement delay ingame.


----------



## alphabet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> He's talking about mcu filtering + inherent 3310/3988 sensor delay. Add those together and you get terms like "raw sensor feel" and "precision"


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Yes the MCU filtering may make it feel not as sharp/raw but I 100% assure you that you cannot feel the delay, your nerve system has more delay than the mouse.Also the 3310 itself has its own sensor inherent delay too


You buying the 16 if you have the FM 15? Any final thoughts?


----------



## Nixtix

Have they actually fixed any issues in the 2016 version? eg. the side buttons sticking, scroll wheel noise and overly sensitive left click?


----------



## alphabet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nixtix*
> 
> Have they actually fixed any issues in the 2016 version? eg. the side buttons sticking, scroll wheel noise and overly sensitive left click?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Iternals/Hardware- Nothing
> Shell- Changed mold to improve build quality, decrease or fix the mouse button double click, make M2 more durable..
> 
> I may forgot something


----------



## raiikd

Is it normal that my finalmouse 2016 lights stay on even though I shutdown the computer?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## qsxcv

LOL it still does that


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raiikd*
> 
> Is it normal that my finalmouse 2016 lights stay on even though I shutdown the computer?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Yeah, it always does that. Actually, I've had other mice that do the same thing.


----------



## DadeBound

Sorry if this has been answered but I have to ask, Has anyone found replacement mouse feet for the Classic (FM2015)?


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DadeBound*
> 
> Sorry if this has been answered but I have to ask, Has anyone found replacement mouse feet for the Classic (FM2015)?


Hello,

We are launching replacement feet here in the next few weeks! Apologies for the wait.

Also with LED's staying on after you turn off the computer. This is normal because our LED's are not integrated into the mouse controller and are instead powered directly by the PCB. However, most motherboards have an option in the bios settings to turn off this excess power when you shutdown.

Thanks!
Jude


----------



## DadeBound

Awesome, thanks for the very quick reply Jude







!


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We are launching replacement feet here in the next few weeks! Apologies for the wait.
> 
> Also with LED's staying on after you turn off the computer. This is normal because our LED's are not integrated into the mouse controller and are instead powered directly by the PCB. However, most motherboards have an option in the bios settings to turn off this excess power when you shutdown.
> 
> Thanks!
> Jude


jude

bruh

where my tourny pro at


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> jude
> 
> bruh
> 
> where my tourny pro at


Probably on a boat or plane.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alphabet*
> 
> You buying the 16 if you have the FM 15? Any final thoughts?


I think that the FM16 is not worth the time..
My ZA12 performs the way I want it to. Scream1 on the other hand is something I would like to use-mostly for the hardware..


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Yes the MCU filtering may make it feel not as sharp/raw but I 100% assure you that you cannot feel the delay, your nerve system has more delay than the mouse.Also the 3310 itself has its own sensor inherent delay too


Human nerve system eye-to brain only has like 13-15ms delay, (eye to hand muscles then more like 160-200ms which is irrelevant for feeling the delay..), sensordelay on FM2015 is 4-7 ms depending on the movement when it is around 1-2 ms on a decent products like Logitech mice..

Ofc you can feel and notice it by eye, the delay gives like 50% more delay on your eye-to brain sync.. Although, according to this study the variance is huge among people, while fast people can see image in 13 ms for some people it takes 80 ms. http://www.livescience.com/42666-human-brain-sees-images-record-speed.html

That probably explains why some people can perceive the delay easily and others don't..


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Human nerve system eye-to brain only has like 13-15ms delay, (eye to hand muscles then more like 160-200ms which is irrelevant for feeling the delay..), sensordelay on FM2015 is 4-7 ms depending on the movement when it is around 1-2 ms on a decent products like Logitech mice..
> 
> Ofc you can feel and notice it by eye, the delay gives like 50% more delay on your eye-to brain sync.. Although, according to this study the variance is huge among people, while fast people can see image in 13 ms for some people it takes 80 ms. http://www.livescience.com/42666-human-brain-sees-images-record-speed.html
> 
> That probably explains why some people can perceive the delay easily and others don't..


I'm too old for this


----------



## Twiffle

I ordered FM 2016 which should be arriving today. Curious to see if the mouse itself is as good as it was hyped for. Also wondering, do you need to do a tape fix for the LoD?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> I ordered FM 2016 which should be arriving today. Curious to see if the mouse itself is as good as it was hyped for. Also wondering, do you need to do a tape fix for the LoD?


The answer is no.
It depends on what you prefer. If you want as low as original Zowie FK then yes. If you want the LOD to be optimal for performance and tracking then keep it at default.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> The answer is no.
> It depends on what you prefer. If you want as low as original Zowie FK then yes. If you want the LOD to be optimal for performance and tracking then keep it at default.


Yeah It just arrived 2 hours ago and the LoD was just fine. Sadly I don't think I'll be using this. There's a weird curve on the right side which indicates that's made for pinky.. so if that's true then it'd mean I would have to keep my ring finger close to M2 button, and I don't like holding a mouse like that. I kinda try to claw the mouse since there's that curve, but it feels quite annoying to me :/ Not sure if there's a way to fill that curve.

Overall the mouse feels great in hand and the top seems to be some smooth gum feeling surface a bit similar to Mionix series I guess, except not really same material. It feels much better though and doesn't seem to leave any fingerprints. As for the thumb curve.. it feels okay but I keep my thumb kind far infront, but it feels really good. The lightning is really bright, but doesn't really bother me while playing. Clicks feel very nice and crisp. Not sure is it just me, but the right click seems to have less resistance than left click, but doesn't really matter that much. Scroll wheel...oh boy.. I have not felt this good scroll wheel in a while.. not since last time I touched Roccat Kone XTD and KPM.

The sensor performance feels really precise and fluid. Mouse feet are good too and seemed to glide just fine on my QCK+ .

Tl'dr : LoD is just fine as it is, sensor performs really well, Didn't like curve on the right side of the mouse.


----------



## grandeuraliass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> Yeah It just arrived 2 hours ago and the LoD was just fine. Sadly I don't think I'll be using this. There's a weird curve on the right side which indicates that's made for pinky.. so if that's true then it'd mean I would have to keep my ring finger close to M2 button, and I don't like holding a mouse like that. I kinda try to claw the mouse since there's that curve, but it feels quite annoying to me :/ Not sure if there's a way to fill that curve.
> 
> Overall the mouse feels great in hand and the top seems to be some smooth gum feeling surface a bit similar to Mionix series I guess, except not really same material. It feels much better though and doesn't seem to leave any fingerprints. As for the thumb curve.. it feels okay but I keep my thumb kind far infront, but it feels really good. The lightning is really bright, but doesn't really bother me while playing. Clicks feel very nice and crisp. Not sure is it just me, but the right click seems to have less resistance than left click, but doesn't really matter that much. Scroll wheel...oh boy.. I have not felt this good scroll wheel in a while.. not since last time I touched Roccat Kone XTD and KPM.
> 
> The sensor performance feels really precise and fluid. Mouse feet are good too and seemed to glide just fine on my QCK+ .
> 
> Tl'dr : LoD is just fine as it is, sensor performs really well, Didn't like curve on the right side of the mouse.


i felt the exact same way but mine had a loose left mouse button had to return a video of guy with the same problem can be seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlPUz3bj6To


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandeuraliass*
> 
> i felt the exact same way but mine had a loose left mouse button had to return a video of guy with the same problem can be seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlPUz3bj6To


Ahh. Mine isn't really that bad. Left click is louder than right click, but both are functional and the resistance on both clicks isn't that much different, but still noticeable .


----------



## coldc0ffee

Crappy mouse. I'm just being real. For the price they're asking. If you're considering the fm ergo dont. Wait for the tournament pro or scream. They're also making another ergo model in a few months. Personally finalmouse has failed to deliver too many times so take everything they say with a grain of salt.


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> Crappy mouse. I'm just being real. For the price they're asking. If you're considering the fm ergo dont. Wait for the tournament pro or scream. They're also making another ergo model in a few months. Personally finalmouse has failed to deliver too many times so take everything they say with a grain of salt.


Nothing wrong at least with my ergo. Only grain of salt from me would be the curve they have made to the right side









but yeah if I'd have to choose between FM or DA I'd go for DA just simply cause it doesn't have this weird curve on the right side.


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Twiffle*
> 
> Nothing wrong at least with my ergo. Only grain of salt from me would be the curve they have made to the right side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but yeah if I'd have to choose between FM or DA I'd go for DA just simply cause it doesn't have this weird curve on the right side.


My main buttona were loose and the side buttons rattled when shaking the mouse as well. I couldn't grip the glossy side either because of the hump. But that's because it's a generic OEM shell. And the price is the main problem with the mouse I think. I got my money back though so it's all good


----------



## Twiffle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> My main buttona were loose and the side buttons rattled when shaking the mouse as well. I couldn't grip the glossy side either because of the hump. But that's because it's a generic OEM shell. And the price is the main problem with the mouse I think. I got my money back though so it's all good


Ahh. Yeah I really dislike the hump or curve w/e you call it on the right(glossy) side. Feels really uncomfortable.

Mine doesn't rattle at all. I can grip it, but the curve just feels annoying. :/ I should have just gone for Deathadder respawn.


----------



## alphabet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> My main buttona were loose and the side buttons rattled when shaking the mouse as well. I couldn't grip the glossy side either because of the hump. But that's because it's a generic OEM shell. And the price is the main problem with the mouse I think. I got my money back though so it's all good


Can you compare it to some other recent mice you have used? I saw your previous post but not too many share negative experiences so open.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> My main buttona were loose and the side buttons rattled when shaking the mouse as well. I couldn't grip the glossy side either because of the hump. But that's because it's a generic OEM shell. And the price is the main problem with the mouse I think. I got my money back though so it's all good


Yup, overall quality is sub-par, price is too high. Still, it's currently my main driver.


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alphabet*
> 
> Can you compare it to some other recent mice you have used? I saw your previous post but not too many share negative experiences so open.


Sure, but in what way exactly do you want me to compare the? Build quality wise? I own the following mice: za12, fk1, ec1-a, g303, avior, castor, deathadder and rival. All the above felt better than the finalmouse I got. Hey I could've gotten a defective one but seeing other comments around the web about the same issues I had I doubt it.


----------



## alphabet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> Sure, but in what way exactly do you want me to compare the? Build quality wise? I own the following mice: za12, fk1, ec1-a, g303, avior, castor, deathadder and rival. All the above felt better than the finalmouse I got. Hey I could've gotten a defective one but seeing other comments around the web about the same issues I had I doubt it.


I've tried all except the zowies and avior, I guess I wanted to know is if this mouse was considered one of the best with a 3310 or just another with a 3310.

Would of been easier if I was aboard the hype train and bought the old version, it's just hard to know what to expect without actually using the mouse if you know what I mean. The weight, shape, and sensor pretty much sell me, but the mcu filtering and polling rate does not. Not that I am a die hard mouse fanatic who can pick apart everything and understand what and why makes it better, I just simply read people having issues and become hesitant.

A few people have responded to my pm's as well so I've been getting some good feedback from different perspectives. Reading amazon reviews these days for many products is a joke, I'm going to have to give them a browse though.

I'm going to do some searching in this thread to help me finalize everything. Check your PM when you have a chance, ty


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alphabet*
> 
> I've tried all except the zowies and avior, I guess I wanted to know is if this mouse was considered one of the best with a 3310 or just another with a 3310.
> 
> Would of been easier if I was aboard the hype train and bought the old version, it's just hard to know what to expect without actually using the mouse if you know what I mean. The weight, shape, and sensor pretty much sell me, but the mcu filtering and polling rate does not. Not that I am a die hard mouse fanatic who can pick apart everything and understand what and why makes it better, I just simply read people having issues and become hesitant.
> 
> A few people have responded to my pm's as well so I've been getting some good feedback from different perspectives. Reading amazon reviews these days for many products is a joke, I'm going to have to give them a browse though.
> 
> I'm going to do some searching in this thread to help me finalize everything. Check your PM when you have a chance, ty


I agree that the build quality of the FM feels worse than any other mouse in that price range but it really is just a cosmetic thing. The first batch of FMs had defects that would actually affect the comfort of the mouse and force people to sand them down to smooth out nicks from the injection molding process but as far as I know they fixed that problem after they released the summer edition. It sounds like coldc0ffee might have bought the original fm if he's saying the build quality got in the way of his ability to use it.

Still, I wouldn't get the FM since the newer versions, including a new ergo version, are coming out in the next couple weeks/months and will be using better sensors, hardware, etc.


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> I agree that the build quality of the FM feels worse than any other mouse in that price range but it really is just a cosmetic thing. The first batch of FMs had defects that would actually affect the comfort of the mouse and force people to sand them down to smooth out nicks from the injection molding process but as far as I know they fixed that problem after they released the summer edition. It sounds like coldc0ffee might have bought the original fm if he's saying the build quality got in the way of his ability to use it.
> 
> Still, I wouldn't get the FM since the newer versions, including a new ergo version, are coming out in the next couple weeks/months and will be using better sensors, hardware, etc.


I had the 2016. Honestly the FM 3310 sensor performed the best as far as MouseTester plots are concerned when compared to all my other 3310 mice but the reason it achieved this feat was because of the extra smoothing that Finalmouse implements into their sensor. I personally could feel the smoothing and would rather sacrifice a few pixels of inaccuracy having a more raw feeling 3310. Also compared to all my other mice the build quality was obviously dodgy on the Finalmouse compared to every single one of the mice I listed in the previous comment.

The reason for the poor build quality is Finalmouse had to build around the standard OEM shell, and not build a form factor from the ground up. Like ChinaRep said, there really is no reason to purchase the 2016 ergo because Finalmouse will be releasing models where it is all designed and put together. I think this fact will drastically reduce shoddy units and cheap feeling mice. Best to wait if you want to purchase a mouse from this company. I'm personally going to wait and see what other companies are coming out with too. There's going to be a good amount of 3360 mice this year that's for sure.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> The GSR has inconsistency in surface "density" during weather/humidity change.Its faster but I cant stop as fast as on a QCK on the other hand the speed accel is mind bogling for me atleast.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> I had the 2016. Honestly the FM 3310 sensor performed the best as far as MouseTester plots are concerned when compared to all my other 3310 mice but the reason it achieved this feat was because of the extra smoothing that Finalmouse implements into their sensor. I personally could feel the smoothing and would rather sacrifice a few pixels of inaccuracy having a more raw feeling 3310. Also compared to all my other mice the build quality was obviously dodgy on the Finalmouse compared to every single one of the mice I listed in the previous comment.
> 
> The reason for the poor build quality is Finalmouse had to build around the standard OEM shell, and not build a form factor from the ground up. Like ChinaRep said, there really is no reason to purchase the 2016 ergo because Finalmouse will be releasing models where it is all designed and put together. I think this fact will drastically reduce shoddy units and cheap feeling mice. Best to wait if you want to purchase a mouse from this company. I'm personally going to wait and see what other companies are coming out with too. There's going to be a good amount of 3360 mice this year that's for sure.


with 8ms of sensor delay though... Im waiting for scream one ergo is just to badly built.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I haven't been following any OC threads for a bit, but I just browsed through what I missed in this one and just wanted to point out this comment: http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/2850_50#post_24606221
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> A mousetester plot can vary differently purely through the fact that your hand does not swipe perfectly straight each time. Swiping slightly upwards or downwards with even the minute difference in angle can effect a mousetester plot.


This is not true. And I'm pretty sure I explained it with examples to Jude before in a PM.

The graphs that showed a difference (and the main graphs I use) were "*x*velocity". "x" being the important part. They don't take the "y", IE: vertical movement, into account at all. This doesn't take any technical knowledge and is very easy to test for yourself.


----------



## PU skunk

Maybe he means vertical components divert speed from xvelocity.


----------



## qsxcv

blah... ashkon is so clueless it's sad


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This doesn't take any technical knowledge


404 no technical knowledge found (Jude). That's unfortunately been quite clear. Nice guy, maybe. But this company's marketing+build quality+business practice is a joke. Their twitter channel is full of casuals who claim it is the best mouse they've ever used. Always the same. I guess casuals don't get it.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> 404 no technical knowledge found (Jude). That's unfortunately been quite clear. Nice guy, maybe. But this company's marketing+build quality+business practice is a joke. Their twitter channel is full of casuals who claim it is the best mouse they've ever used. Always the same. I guess casuals don't get it.


The marketing works for casuals so it's not a joke,with how hyped it is and how it's constantly sold out they're making money...everything else is a joke though.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

"Casuals" in the case being the casuals of a limited segment of the peripheral market.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> "Casuals" in the case being the casuals of a limited segment of the peripheral market.


I was referring to people who buy stuff cause it looks 'cool' and people who read marketing terms and make a decision based on how the product is advertised and what buzzwords are used. "Omg it has an e-sports sensor, finalmouse is better than Logitech".
So I was referring to the general crowd who buy any peripherals for that matter, as well as any tech. But yes in this case it is limited. That's not the point, though.
I mean not everybody has to have knowledge of mice or sensors, i, for example, have not much knowledge about cars. But I will apply the same fundamental principles in my thinking, decisionmaking and analyzing process in whatever I'm looking into.

I remember when quad core cpus became available one guy told me: " omg I heard such and such phone has 4 cpus. I'm gonna buy that".
So that's that.


----------



## kashim

sry guys bt scream one have 3360 sensor,have same performance then 3366?is better then 3310?


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> sry guys bt scream one have 3360 sensor,have same performance then 3366?is better then 3310?


3360 non-exclusive 3366.
yes is better 3310


----------



## ronal

The joke is on the casuals that buy the mouse. The price is absurd for what your getting when you compare it to Zowie or Logitech mice. If the mouse was priced $40 people wouldn't be bashing them or the product, because the price is more inline with what is being offered. If they are charging $70 for the OEM mouse, I can only image what the price will be for the Scream One.


----------



## Zibv

http://finalmouse.tumblr.com/post/137315156761/finalmouse-custom-pro-shop-made-to-order-mouse

Made to order mice from FinalMouse. Pro's only.

Options are a bit limited and I'm sure it will be quite the markup. Thinking ($199+, maybe with minimum order?) What do you all think?


----------



## turnschuh

Will make my own business aswell where i offer esports tournament pro grade custom mice. BUT only to pros which are on the best of all time list. This will be so EXCLUSIVE!! Hah! If you re a pro, let me know and i ll decide if you are pro enough for my mice!


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zibv*
> 
> http://finalmouse.tumblr.com/post/137315156761/finalmouse-custom-pro-shop-made-to-order-mouse
> 
> Made to order mice from FinalMouse. Pro's only.
> 
> Options are a bit limited and I'm sure it will be quite the markup. Thinking ($199+, maybe with minimum order?) What do you all think?


Actualy this seems very intresting.If they have all the common mousewheel+encoder combos, multiple positions for the feet and many cables and surfaces to chose from, this should catch the intrest of alot of pros.

On the other hand I know Zowie had a "silver" mouse for pros,Guardian has a very mixed parts wise Kinzu, so more than likely steelseries and zowie also offered/offer this to some extent.There was speculation on Logitech having g100s with other sensors, nothing confirmed, but I woudnt be surprised.

Also I never saw logitech,steelseries and zowie having custom surfaces, well besides the Silver zowie and the Guardians Kinzu , which used a mass produced shell to begin with.

I can guess that they may catch attention with many choices they offer.

I wonder if their sensor implementation differs from the mainstream ones.For example can they choose a 1000hz 3310?


----------



## ramraze

maybe it's not Shayani after all.

http://finalmouse.tumblr.com/post/137312415941/the-company-scapegoat?is_related_post=1


----------



## grahu

About "Scream 2", I think Finalmouse should make it more roundish (like Zowie EC-A) and about 124mm long. I think it's most compatible length for most hand sizes. About materials, I don't really care, but for a love of god no rubber grips and other useless. Sorry for repeating same words, I'm not that good at english


----------



## ramraze

"It's pretty clear - eSports has left the infancy stages and is now on its way to becoming a full blown monster.

Being in the PC industry for over 8 years, the term "eSports" was once considered gimmicky and a joke to the general public when I first started. Companies would throw on tacky LED lighting, crazy fire graphics, and lightning bolt animations to align with what they assumed a gamer wanted. Gamers identified with these products and it became a staple for companies to just use them in order to lure in the masses who were slowly growing the community and culture."

Yes, the Rival 700 is a clear example of that. Or Finalmouse itself.

edit: Quoted from CMRajiv.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Classic variable framerate (3310) or higher-horsepower, fixed framerate (3360)


3360 is not fixed framerate


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 3360 is not fixed framerate


Hello,

Ah yes. You are correct. This needs to be updated to "higher framerate".

Will have it fixed.

Thanks.


----------



## aayman_farzand

JUDE GET BACK TO US WITH A RELEASE DATE.

I am in need of a mice with decent grip and a good sensor.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

'Soon' is all we have gotten for the tournament pro release date. It's been said a few times, here we are forever later still waiting(since january 7th to be exact. Any news would be good. Trynna drop cash.


----------



## Secondo

Will Tournament Pro and ScreaMOne be available at the same time?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Ah yes. You are correct. This needs to be updated to "higher framerate".


while you're at it, might as well add

higher resolution
more responsive
higher max speed
lower variance (aka accel)
...

basically there's pretty much nothing going for the 3310 other than price, and maxkohler's opinions.









although there is the possibility that the rival700's firmware sucks and people will start to think that 3360 sucks because of that.


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> 3360 non-exclusive 3366.
> yes is better 3310


is better 3310 or is better then 3310? ^^


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

3310 is better than 3310.


----------



## Fragil1ty

I tried to go back to my Zowie FK1 recently, I just couldn't do it, I couldn't leave the FM behind, it just doesn't sit well with me at-all.

The FM just feels more responsive, better in the hand (ergonomically), lighter, better clicks etc, it's strange what using the mouse for the past 6+ months will do to you, lol.

Strange.


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> 3310 is better than 3310.


is better 3360 or 3310?-.-''


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> is better 3360 or 3310?-.-''


yes


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> yes


Wow this made me laugh way too much.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> is better 3360 or 3310?-.-''


3360>3310


----------



## Watsyurdeal

Can anyone tell me what's so special about this firmware? Or at least direct me to a post that explains it?


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> is better 3360 or 3310?-.-''


i arent think that


----------



## 7Teku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Watsyurdeal*
> 
> Can anyone tell me what's so special about this software? Or at least direct me to a post that explains it?


Hint. There is none.


----------



## TburdzZ

When is the tourney pro coming out. I cant wait to playtest it in csgo. Well maybe if comcast could fix my internet i could play csgo........


----------



## zeflow

Supposed to be available on Amazon tomorrow...we shall see.


----------



## Watsyurdeal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7Teku*
> 
> Hint. There is none.


I meant to say firmware, I heard the firmware is what makes this mouse different despite having a sensor that a lot of mice use already.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> When is the tourney pro coming out. I cant wait to playtest it in csgo. Well maybe if comcast could fix my internet i could play csgo........


Last word we got, we were told the 22nd-25th. If it is tomorrow we should get wind of it today.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Watsyurdeal*
> 
> I meant to say firmware, I heard the firmware is what makes this mouse different despite having a sensor that a lot of mice use already.


You just have to play with the mouse & get a feel for it for yourself. It feels amazing to some, not so different to others. Only you can decide.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Watsyurdeal*
> 
> I meant to say firmware, I heard the firmware is what makes this mouse different despite having a sensor that a lot of mice use already.


There's nothing special about the firmware. Well, unless you referring to people remarking how the mouse has MCU smoothing but that's a con rather than a pro.


----------



## Watsyurdeal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> There's nothing special about the firmware. Well, unless you referring to people remarking how the mouse has MCU smoothing but that's a con rather than a pro.


How so? I'm really trying to understand the advantages of this mouse when it has that shape, white leds, top mounted DPI button that I'd never use, and 500 hz polling rate.

I'd much rather see them to take their mouse and look at what Ducky did, but with a taller mouse, something like the EC2 A.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Watsyurdeal*
> 
> How so? I'm really trying to understand the advantages of this mouse when it has that shape, white leds, top mounted DPI button that I'd never use, and 500 hz polling rate.
> 
> I'd much rather see them to take their mouse and look at what Ducky did, but with a taller mouse, something like the EC2 A.


Lots love the light weight as well.


----------



## pixie99

The wait is getting irritating.

The testing for the Scream One especially makes me suspect it is still *far* from launch. Scream's "anytime" now demo probably hit a snag lol and I'm guessing bugs


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> The wait is getting irritating.
> 
> The testing for the Scream One especially makes me suspect it is still *far* from launch. Scream's "anytime" now demo probably hit a snag lol and I'm guessing bugs


Here you go:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello
> 
> For the scream one availability I know for a fact mlg major weekend is a big target that is trying to be hit. So I would imagine it would be be before then. Early March is optimistic , late March conservative , and mid April being worst case scenario.
> 
> We had to change mcus and change the circuit design recently which was a setback but we finally settled on a new design with an STM controller so once we have these new pcbs fabricated hopefully we can start beta testing.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Here you go:


Thanks for that!

But... le sigh~...


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I really hope FM delivers this time.


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> I really hope FM delivers this time.


The number of 3310 mice coming out as alternatives at lower price points surely must be a driving pressure for their 3360s et al. And in all honesty FM 2016 and Tournament (which is supposedly available today or next week) are looking less and less attractive with every passing day.

Last month it was definite I would pick up the FM Tournament, today its already less likely with more offerings on the table.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> The number of 3310 mice coming out as alternatives at lower price points surely must be a driving pressure for their 3360s et al. And in all honesty FM 2016 and Tournament (which is supposedly available today or next week) are looking less and less attractive with every passing day.
> 
> Last month it was definite I would pick up the FM Tournament, today its already less likely with more offerings on the table.


What if FinalMouse allowed people like qsxcv to customize their firmware for all their products? If they aren't going to make their products more versatile at least open it up as an option for other people to mess with.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What if FinalMouse allowed people like qsxcv to customize their firmware for all their products? If they aren't going to make their products more versatile at least open it up as an option for other people to mess with.


But then they have to deal with people who think they know what they are doing and end up "briking"/Braking the mouse on software side. They have problems with QC already and this may be another stick in the wheel.

Personaly I would love this to happen but lets be real here, if it was implemented, we would have to pay for it as a feature and not a cheap one.


----------



## qsxcv

well even if they did, it won't be me


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well even if they did, it won't be me


Oh nobody ever doubted you, MiceGuru!


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No, the FM *does* have a tracking issue. But it's completely different from the feeling of smoothing that is in other mice. In fact, some/most of the FMs I tested felt *more raw* than the MLT04. But there was different issue with their tracking that made me rank it as worse than the MLT04.
> Everything you say is so biased and ignorant it's ridiculous. The admins need to give you a special flair for "logitech lackey".
> There are a bunch of differences.
> 
> 1. The original usage of the term "smoothing" was used to describe an inaccurate, floaty, smoothed out feeling of the movement of a cursor. To this day we still don't know the cause of it.
> 2. qsxcv's tests measure a few different things. Mostly filtering/averaging.
> 3. When companies use the term "smoothing" they are typically referring to jitter reduction at higher DPIs.
> 
> We still don't know what qsxcv's findings actually feel like until we get a mouse/firmware where we can toggle that stuff on and off.
> People praise the FM for the way its tracking feels ingame. Nothing has changed there.
> You have some kind of proof that the graphs only look like that because of the filtering that qsxcv found? I don't think so. The only way you'd get that is if they released that SROM flash (that toggles it) they promised but never delivered on.
> 
> And there are other mice like the 3366, DA4g, and g402 which all have similar lines. And if you believe Logitech, they claim to have 0 smoothing. So that would debunk your claim.
> No, you don't hear the same kind of comments about the zowie's as you do the MLT04 and FM.
> 
> People who praise the zowies and others are generally people who've never used an MLT04/FM, and you never hear them say things like "wow this mouse feels so much more accurate than any other mouse I've ever used". But you do hear those types of comments about the MLT04/FM.


The 3310 didn't feel accurate to me when I used the the original and beta firmware provided by Mionix. It felt like it had a lot of angle snapping. It didn't feel like a MLT04 mouse at all, quite the opposite. Response seemed to change with the beta firmware, yet I didn't feel it was accurately representing my movements, more like it was assisting me.

http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2015/11/avior7000trackinglagfirmware-308338.html

As for the MLT04 mice, they feel like the CPI is too low for small/slow movements. I have problems making small corrections, I don't have that issue with a 3090. The response feels fine, but the motion necessary to change the angle in game makes the mouse feel a little detached, that's problematic for making corrections to land a head shot. It's a real struggle at times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9EGmg8_A_M

After playing with the MLT04, 3080, 3090, 3305, 3310 and the 3366, I think the 3366 is the better overall performer for modern gaming. Of course it feels different than a MLT04, that's to be expected due to the difference in tracking methods.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The 3310 didn't feel accurate to me when I used the the original and beta firmware provided by Mionix.


Dude.. really... haven't I explained a bunch of times that you can't compare mice with the same sensors like that as if they're the same mouse... every mouse with the 3310 sensor performs completely different.

God these forums can be so incredibly frustrating sometimes. Same things get repeated over and over and no one remembers any of it.

Look at my rankings based off sensor performance only: https://www.reddit.com/r/MaxKArchive/comments/3h9joe/mice_keyboards_gaming/cu5gjfw - there are 3310 mice in very different places.

Quote:


> As for the MLT04 mice, they feel like the CPI is too low for small/slow movements. I have problems making small corrections, I don't have that issue with a 3090. The response feels fine, but the motion necessary to change the angle in game makes the mouse feel a little detached, that's problematic for making corrections to land a head shot. It's a real struggle at times.


I don't know what that is, I've never heard of that complaint about the MLT04 mice before. Maybe it has something to do with this: Pixel skipping and useful DPI: http://www.overclock.net/t/1545382/csgo-m-rawinput-0-drops-samples/150_50#post_23717895

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9EGmg8_A_M - what was this for?


----------



## wareya

Stop pretending that the word "smoothing" does not apply to what the 3310 does. I don't know what history you're trying to use, but the one where "smoothing" describes lowpassed deltas is objective. This is what smoothing means. This is what the floaty feeling *is*. It's smoothing. Just because it's not as much as the worst mice doesn't mean it's not what it is. Whether you care about that smoothing or not is a completely different issue. Get over it. Argue about something else, this is senseless.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Dude.. really... haven't I explained a bunch of times that you can't compare mice with the same sensors like that as if they're the same mouse... every mouse with the 3310 sensor performs completely different.
> 
> God these forums can be so incredibly frustrating sometimes. Same things get repeated over and over and no one remembers any of it.
> 
> Look at my rankings based off sensor performance only: https://www.reddit.com/r/MaxKArchive/comments/3h9joe/mice_keyboards_gaming/cu5gjfw - there are 3310 mice in very different places.
> I don't know what that is, I've never heard of that complaint about the MLT04 mice before. Maybe it has something to do with this: Pixel skipping and useful DPI: http://www.overclock.net/t/1545382/csgo-m-rawinput-0-drops-samples/150_50#post_23717895
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9EGmg8_A_M - what was this for?


As you can see on Rafa's page, the beta firmware for the Avior 7000 changes the response to something close to the MLT04. You can't deny his test results. By the way, qsxcv was able to remove smoothing from his custom AM010 [G100S], you might want to ask him about that.

Go in game with your MLT04 mouse and try to make small movements. You'll see how much effort is necessary just to make a small adjustment, how that can be very problematic for flicks shots and tracking continuously strafing players. When you watch that Scream video at 0.5x speed you will see him struggle with the exact thing I am talking about. The MLT04 mice are great for Quake, they're not really great for GO.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Go in game with your MLT04 mouse and try to make small movements. You'll see how much effort is necessary just to make a small adjustment, *how that can be very problematic for flicks shots and tracking continuously strafing players.* When you watch that Scream video at 0.5x speed you will see him struggle with the exact thing I am talking about. *The MLT04 mice are great for Quake, they're not really great for GO*.


you're trolling right?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> you're trolling right?


Nope.

Keep in mind what sensitivity you use is a factor. Hitting head shots in GO with a MLT04 mouse isn't as easy as a more modern sensor. Watch the Scream video... If you feel otherwise you can post a video of you destroying people with 1 shot flicks to the head.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Stop pretending that the word "smoothing" does not apply to what the 3310 does. I don't know what history you're trying to use, but the one where "smoothing" describes lowpassed deltas is objective. This is what smoothing means. This is what the floaty feeling *is*. It's smoothing. Just because it's not as much as the worst mice doesn't mean it's not what it is. Whether you care about that smoothing or not is a completely different issue. Get over it. Argue about something else, this is senseless.


No, I won't accept that.

"Smoothing" was a well known term long before the finalmouse was around. And the FM does NOT have what people were talking about when they used that term before the FM came out.

Furthermore, according qsxcv, there are mice that do NOT have the MCU filtering that the FM has. Yet these mice DO have the feeling of smoothing.

For all we know, the feeling of smoothing could be as simple as there being too much processing by the firmware/SROM. Especially since we know that firmware/srom updates affect the feeling of smoothing.

There is NO proof that what qsxcv found in the FM is the cause of the feeling of smoothing. Like I said, we'd need the SROM flash that FM promised but never released. And going off ingame testing, it's safe to say that what he's been measuring is absolutely NOT "smoothing" but something completely different. The reason for this is that the FM is one of the few mice that do NOT have the feeling of smoothing.

Yes there is something wrong with the FM tracking, but it is not the infamous "smoothing", it's something completely different. The term "smoothing" has been abused to refer to all kinds of different phenomenon. I'm trying to keep terms more precise.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> As you can see on Rafa's page, the beta firmware for the Avior 7000 changes the response to something close to the MLT04. You can't deny his test results. By the way, qsxcv was able to remove smoothing from his custom AM010 [G100S], you might want to ask him about that.
> 
> Go in game with your MLT04 mouse and try to make small movements. You'll see how much effort is necessary just to make a small adjustment, how that can be very problematic for flicks shots and tracking continuously strafing players. When you watch that Scream video at 0.5x speed you will see him struggle with the exact thing I am talking about. The MLT04 mice are great for Quake, they're not really great for GO.


I'm not really sure what you're trying to say about the avior, but a simple xcount graph is hardly comprehensive.

I don't have any problems making small movements with the MLT04.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Keep in mind what sensitivity you use is a factor. Hitting head shots in GO with a MLT04 mouse isn't as easy as a more modern sensor. Watch the Scream video... If you feel otherwise you can post a video of you destroying people with 1 shot flicks to the head.


that scream video isn't evidence of anything....he switches to a mouse he isn't using and he's warming up with it? you seriously are using that as evidence that MLT04 is somehow less accurate than modern sensors for headshots? burden of PROOF is on you to prove it, not me

pretty much all of CS 1.6 to source was MLT04 mice and deathadders and logitech mx mice. you never see them now because of the USB overclocking limitation, plus sponsors push their new products.

http://www.hltv.org/?pageid=18&threadid=6693

if MLT04 was bad for CS no one would be using it...


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No, I won't accept that.
> 
> "Smoothing" was a well known term long before the finalmouse was around. And the FM does NOT have what people were talking about when they used that term before the FM came out.
> 
> Furthermore, according qsxcv, there are mice that do NOT have the MCU filtering that the FM has. Yet these mice DO have the feeling of smoothing.
> 
> For all we know, the feeling of smoothing could be as simple as there being too much processing by the firmware/SROM. Especially since we know that firmware/srom updates affect the feeling of smoothing.
> 
> There is NO proof that what qsxcv found in the FM is the cause of the feeling of smoothing. Like I said, we'd need the SROM flash that FM promised but never released. And going off ingame testing, it's safe to say that what he's been measuring is absolutely NOT "smoothing" but something completely different. The reason for this is that the FM is one of the few mice that do NOT have the feeling of smoothing.
> 
> Yes there is something wrong with the FM tracking, but it is not the infamous "smoothing", it's something completely different. The term "smoothing" has been abused to refer to all kinds of different phenomenon. I'm trying to keep terms more precise.
> I'm not really sure what you're trying to say about the avior, but a simple xcount graph is hardly comprehensive.
> 
> I don't have any problems making small movements with the MLT04.


The FinalMouse uses the 3310. The 3310 has smoothing in the SROM. Therefore...

If you can't notice the odd feeling of the MLT04 for a few pixel corrections I can't understand how you can say the FinalMouse feels better than other products.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> that scream video isn't evidence of anything....he switches to a mouse he isn't using and he's warming up with it? you seriously are using that as evidence that MLT04 is somehow less accurate than modern sensors for headshots? burden of PROOF is on you to prove it, not me
> 
> pretty much all of CS 1.6 to source was MLT04 mice and deathadders and logitech mx mice. you never see them now because of the USB overclocking limitation, plus sponsors push their new products.
> 
> http://www.hltv.org/?pageid=18&threadid=6693
> 
> if MLT04 was bad for CS no one would be using it...


Did you even watch the Scream video at 0.5x speed? Have you ever watched Scream play with the DeathAdder? Have you switched between a MLT04 mouse and a modern sensor to verify what I stated? How I am going to "prove" anything if you don't even try?

CS 1.6 is a different game -- the head hit boxes and spread behavior is different. GO has smaller head hit boxes and requires more precision to get head shots. In CS 1.6 you could tap quickly with accuracy, in GO you cannot tap accurately without slowing down a lot. Thus, for GO, I don't think the MLT04 is great for those 1 bullet head shot type players [Scream].

When the Diamondback and MX510 came out players switched to those. I know a lot of people who used the MX510 over Microsoft mice. Most of my team used the MX510 and I was the only one to use a Diamondback.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> As you can see on Rafa's page, the beta firmware for the Avior 7000 changes the response to something close to the MLT04. You can't deny his test results. By the way, qsxcv was able to remove smoothing from his custom AM010 [G100S], you might want to ask him about that.
> 
> Go in game with your MLT04 mouse and try to make small movements. You'll see how much effort is necessary just to make a small adjustment, how that can be very problematic for flicks shots and tracking continuously strafing players. When you watch that Scream video at 0.5x speed you will see him struggle with the exact thing I am talking about. The MLT04 mice are great for Quake, they're not really great for GO.


I'm not arguing your point here, but if you're able to easily tell the difference between DPIs due to how "easy" it is to track heads, then you should be able to tell which DPI is the higher one and the lower one in the case here, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2HQp8Zb7c4


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> I'm not arguing your point here, but if you're able to easily tell the difference between DPIs due to how "easy" it is to track heads, then you should be able to tell which DPI is the higher one and the lower one in the case here, right?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2HQp8Zb7c4


he said MLT04 is less accurate for headshots... he's either trolling or insane. pretty self explanatory


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> he said MLT04 is less accurate for headshots... he's either trolling or insane. pretty self explanatory


The unusual thing is, ScreaM said himself that the DPI in the IME he was using was different from the DPI he used normally, hence why his tracking wasn't as good as it usually is, it's not like he was using the IME as his main driver, he just busted it out and plugged it in, if he can tell the difference between ScreaM's aim with an IME and his usual driver (which was a DA in that vid iirc) then he should be able to tell the difference between my aim at two different DPI settings. Just a thought.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> I'm not arguing your point here, but if you're able to easily tell the difference between DPIs due to how "easy" it is to track heads, then you should be able to tell which DPI is the higher one and the lower one in the case here, right?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2HQp8Zb7c4


+rep for the music.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> +rep for the music.


https://soundcloud.com/memorycards/canal-st Here's the link if you're interested.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> The unusual thing is, ScreaM said himself that the DPI in the IME he was using was different from the DPI he used normally, hence why his tracking wasn't as good as it usually is, it's not like he was using the IME as his main driver, he just busted it out and plugged it in, if he can tell the difference between ScreaM's aim with an IME and his usual driver (which was a DA in that vid iirc) then he should be able to tell the difference between my aim at two different DPI settings. Just a thought.


it's also the fault of newer mice too, sometimes the DPI listed isn't actually what the DPI is. some razer mice were actually 750, not 800dpi.

that video shouldn't be evidence of anything other than a good time with a good mouse. it's blindingly obviously why that video proves nothing


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> it's also the fault of newer mice too, sometimes the DPI listed isn't actually what the DPI is. some razer mice were actually 750, not 800dpi.
> 
> that video shouldn't be evidence of anything other than a good time with a good mouse. it's blindingly obviously why that video proves nothing


I agree, that's why I made that video to see if popups can actually tell the difference between the two DPI settings that I am using in that (roughly 775ish DPI and 450ish DPI)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> it's also the fault of newer mice too, sometimes the DPI listed isn't actually what the DPI is. some razer mice were actually 750, not 800dpi.
> 
> that video shouldn't be evidence of anything other than a good time with a good mouse. it's blindingly obviously why that video proves nothing


It proves nothing when you don't go into the game and try to move a few pixels near a head hit box at further distances. If you pay attention to how your hand movements correlate to the crosshair movement you can easily see my point.

I don't expect a bias person to be honest with themselves.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> *agree, i'm fairly certain the mlt04 has some sort of deadzone for 1-pixel movements. try to write abcdefg as small as possible in mspaint with a mlt04 mouse and compare against am010 for instance. i find am010 (500dpi) and 3366 (400dpi) to be much more natural.*


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> I agree, that's why I made that video to see if popups can actually tell the difference between the two DPI settings that I am using in that (roughly 775ish DPI and 450ish DPI)


The point is for you to test the MLT04 against a sensor like the 3090. The video is to give you an idea of what I am referring to.

By the way, I measure the CPI of each mouse I own and change my sensitivity accordingly.


----------



## Maximillion

This reminds me, didn't r0ach say be could tell the difference between 1 DPI increment or something along those lines? man I miss that guy


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> This reminds me, didn't r0ach say be could tell the difference between 1 DPI increment or something along those lines? man I miss that guy


Is he still banned from OCN or is he back and just not posting anymore?


----------



## Ino.

ITT: People still think that subjective experience of cursor feeling is measurable and can be defined in categories from bad to good.

People like the FM although it has smoothing (and that is smoothing, by definition, whatever people wrongly assumed previously smoothing means), so there is more to cursor feeling than being as "raw" as possible.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No, I won't accept that.


Accept it. Accept it and move on the reality that other people live in.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> "Smoothing" was a well known term long before the finalmouse was around. And the FM does NOT have what people were talking about when they used that term before the FM came out.


Yeah, because the technique was around for so long. That doesn't mean the FM isn't using smoothing. It is. It absolutely objectively is. *You are not allowed to overwhelimingly redefine the words other people use to fit your personal opinion.*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Furthermore, according qsxcv, there are mice that do NOT have the MCU filtering that the FM has. Yet these mice DO have the feeling of smoothing.


Smoothing is a process, not a feeling. Just because it's small enough that *you* don't feel it doesn't mean it's not there. You are wrong. I'm sorry that whatever ego you have about being able to feel imperfections in sensor movement breaks down when the flaws are small. That doesn't mean this particular flaw isn't what it is and it doesn't mean this mouse doesn't have it. Your opinion is meaningless.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> For all we know, the feeling of smoothing could be as simple as there being too much processing by the firmware/SROM. Especially since we know that firmware/srom updates affect the feeling of smoothing.


That's not a "feeling of smoothing", that's a "feeling of input lag". Other things can add input lag than smoothing. The only way to feel small amounts of smoothing is by feeling the input lag that it causes. That doesn't mean that smoothing stops existing when you, personally, yourself, do not feel that input lag.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> There is NO proof that what qsxcv found in the FM is the cause of the feeling of smoothing.


What about the *fact* that *smoothing is literally defined as what he found?*


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Is he still banned from OCN or is he back and just not posting anymore?


I think he sailed to Atlantis or something. No, seriously.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I think he sailed to Atlantis or something. No, seriously.


Doesn't sound unlikely honestly, knowing him he's psycho enough to actually try finding something like that. He'll be back in a few months posting about how nice it was but have no proof, then when someone asks he'll just berate them.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> ITT: People still think that subjective experience of cursor feeling is measurable and can be defined in categories from bad to good.
> 
> People like the FM although it has smoothing (and that is smoothing, by definition, whatever people wrongly assumed previously smoothing means), so there is more to cursor feeling than being as "raw" as possible.


I use the word "feel" because I can't quantify things. I can't do a scientific experiment to verify anything. I can only state my experience/feeling/perception.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> I think he sailed to Atlantis or something. No, seriously.


I saw him on Amazon.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I use the word "feel" because I can't quantify things. I can't do a scientific experiment to verify anything. I can only state my experience/feeling/perception.
> I saw him on Amazon.


He gave the Finalmouse Ambi a 1 star before it was even released.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The FinalMouse uses the 3310. The 3310 has smoothing in the SROM. Therefore...
> 
> If you can't notice the odd feeling of the MLT04 for a few pixel corrections I can't understand how you can say the FinalMouse feels better than other products.


By "smoothing" you mean some kind of filtering/averaging delay? Therefore what? The thing you're referring to that is in the 3310 SROM is not the same thing as the original definition of "smoothing".

This is the first time I'm hearing anything wrong with the MLT04 making small movements. It's either something uniquely wrong on your end or it has to do with what I linked earlier. I just tried that mspaint test and see no problems.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> ITT: People still think that subjective experience of cursor feeling is measurable and can be defined in categories from bad to good.
> 
> People like the FM although it has smoothing (and that is smoothing, by definition, whatever people wrongly assumed previously smoothing means), so there is more to cursor feeling than being as "raw" as possible.


Our ability to measure various things is currently pretty lacking, but I don't see why we wouldn't continue to improve our technology and methods and eventually be able to figure out the problem. Also, please stop using the same term for completely different phenomena. There's nothing "wrong" with what people originally referred to as smoothing. The only thing wrong is discovering a bunch of new and different things and calling them all the same thing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Accept it. Accept it and move on the reality that other people live in.


Oh yeah? Should I also accept that some people believe the earth is 6k years old? What a dumb thing to say. A bunch of people have convoluted a variety of different phenomenon, and you think this is a good thing? "We believe this misinformation that's been spread, so please just accept it."
Quote:


> Yeah, because the technique was around for so long. That doesn't mean the FM isn't using smoothing. It is. It absolutely objectively is. *You are not allowed to overwhelimingly redefine the words other people use to fit your personal opinion.*


Dude... that's what YOU'RE trying to do. I'm the one trying to fix it.

The FM is absolutely objectively using some kind of filter/averaging. It does not have the feeling of smoothing.
Quote:


> Smoothing is a process, not a feeling.


See, here you go doing exactly what you just accused me of - trying to redefine words/terms for established phenomena.

Look, maybe you got here late. Maybe you got here when people were already misusing the term for a variety of actual technical things. But that is not what the term was originally used for for a number of years. So please use different, unique words for different, unique phenomena. That's all I'm asking.
Quote:


> Just because it's small enough that *you* don't feel it doesn't mean it's not there. You are wrong. I'm sorry that whatever ego you have about being able to feel imperfections in sensor movement breaks down when the flaws are small. That doesn't mean this particular flaw isn't what it is and it doesn't mean this mouse doesn't have it. Your opinion is meaningless.
> That's not a "feeling of smoothing", that's a "feeling of input lag". Other things can add input lag than smoothing. The only way to feel small amounts of smoothing is by feeling the input lag that it causes. That doesn't mean that smoothing stops existing when you, personally, yourself, do not feel that input lag.


This is not the issue. I have stated over and over that I have no idea whether or not I can feel what qsxcv has measured in the FM. The only way to know would be to use a firmware that toggles it on and off. I have zero problem admitting I have limits. It would be moronic not to. From what I understand from this comment of yours, you're missing the point entirely.
Quote:


> What about the *fact* that *smoothing is literally defined as what he found?*


This is the problem. People are using one term for a variety of different phenomena.

For the hundredth time, I'm using the original meaning. I'm not denying what qsxcv is measuring, I'm simply asking to use a different term for it because "smoothing" already refers to something different.


----------



## a_ak57

You keep saying it's a different term but you've provided no actual reason as to why it's different. You just keep harping about how smoothing is something we don't understand and yeah there's this thing that is altering input data but obviously that could never be responsible for the mouse not feeling like it's actually doing what it's supposed to.









I honestly have no idea how you can sit there and say the definition of smoothing is "an inaccurate, floaty, smoothed out feeling of the movement of a cursor" then say that is absolutely not related to filtering/input data alteration. That makes zero sense and your argument is based entirely you believing that what you've experienced is 100% objective fact so obviously data saying you're not better at perception than everyone else has to do with something completely different. Not to mention the craziness of you going on about us ruining the definition of smoothing when we've been talking about the same exact thing, performance that isn't actually raw/accurate. If anything you're the one trying to redefine the term to fit your own experiences.

Stop digging your heels in and maybe acknowledge it's possible you were actually wrong about something.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> You keep saying it's a different term but you've provided no actual reason as to why it's different. You just keep harping about how smoothing is something we don't understand and yeah there's this thing that is altering input data but obviously that could never be responsible for the mouse not feeling like it's actually doing what it's supposed to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly have no idea how you can sit there and say the definition of smoothing is "an inaccurate, floaty, smoothed out feeling of the movement of a cursor" then say that is absolutely not related to filtering/input data alteration. That makes zero sense and your argument is based entirely you believing that what you've experienced is 100% objective fact so obviously data saying you're not better at perception than everyone else has to do with something completely different. Not to mention the craziness of you going on about us ruining the definition of smoothing when we've been talking about the same exact thing, performance that isn't actually raw/accurate. If anything you're the one trying to redefine the term to fit your own experiences.
> 
> Stop digging your heels in and maybe acknowledge it's possible you were actually wrong about something.


I had a guy on here explain to me that if I feel input lag, it's probably because there's smoothing, so it should be called 'smoothing' and not 'input delay'. really smart stuff

people use words in their own ways on here. no bash on max


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Oh yeah? Should I also accept that some people believe the earth is 6k years old? What a dumb thing to say.


We generally know the world is older than 6k years old. We do not generally know that smoothing is not a process on numbers that smooths them out. In fact, we generally know the opposite of that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> A bunch of people have convoluted a variety of different phenomenon, and you think this is a good thing? "We believe this misinformation that's been spread, so please just accept it."


You're the one who's "saying the world is only 6k years old" here. You're the one that's wrong about what "smoothing" means. When everyone disagrees with you about what a technical term means. it's *you* that's wrong. You are the one that is spreading the misinformation. You are wrong. I cannot be polite about this. You are way too imposing and just don't stop.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Dude... that's what YOU'RE trying to do. I'm the one trying to fix it.


Got a citation that "smoothing" on numbers somehow doesn't mean smoothing out the changes between them? Got a reason why it's wrong to say that? No, you don't, because your belief is based on a misunderstanding someone else had and wrote and propagated *and now you're echoing that same misunderstanding yourself*.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> The FM is absolutely objectively using some kind of filter/averaging. It does not have the feeling of smoothing.


Guess what smoothing is? *THAT.*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> See, here you go doing exactly what you just accused me of - trying to redefine words/terms for established phenomena.


When everyone disagrees with you about what a word means, it's *you* that's tryign to redefine it. This is what smoothing means. Go study signal processing for a week and you'll understand how horribly wrong you are.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Look, maybe you got here late. Maybe you got here when people were already misusing the term for a variety of actual technical things.


I know more than you.

http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~toh/spectrum/Smoothing.html
http://www.mathworks.com/help/curvefit/smoothing-data.html

Look at the pretty graphs. Look at them smoothing out that signal information. That is literally what the FM does. That is what mice do to smooth out jitter. When you apply this to deltas it causes more input lag. *This is common jargon that exists outside the world of mice and OCN. If there is anything that is wrong to call smoothing, it cannot be this.*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> But that is not what the term was originally used for for a number of years. So please use different, unique words for different, unique phenomena. That's all I'm asking.


What you think it means is not what the term was originally used for for a number of years. So please use different, unique words for different, unique phenomena. That's all I'm asking.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This is the problem. People are using one term for a variety of different phenomena.


*You are the one that is using the abnormal definition.*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> For the hundredth time, I'm using the original meaning. I'm not denying what qsxcv is measuring, I'm simply asking to use a different term for it because "smoothing" already refers to something different.


For the hundredth time, I'm using the original meaning. I'm asking you to use a different term for it because "smoothing" already refers to something other than what you insist it means.

I don't care if you continue to call input lag smoothing. *Just please don't tell people who use the term with the actual traditional definition that they're wrong. They're not wrong.*


----------



## popups

Roach was the guy who attempted to redefine smoothing. Max is continuing that in his absence.

Didn't the original Mionix Avior 7000 firmware have some MCU filtering and the beta/unreleased firmware removed it? FinalMouse doesn't want to do the same thing Mionix did, they are just going to release the 3360 without it and keep it for the 3310 mice.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

@ wareya

Ok, so what I understand is that "smoothing" has an official definition outside of mice. Fine.

There is still a problem that the *mouse community* is using the term for at least 3 different, probably unrelated, phenomena. So to solve this problem we have to agree on different terms for different phenomena.

I had this conversation already with qsxcv at least 6 months ago, and we agreed to call his findings "filtering" or "averaging". If you want to redefine this as "smoothing" then come up with something else to call what was originally being described as a feeling of smoothing.

There's also Logitech who decided to start applying the term towards anti-jitter algorithms implemented on high DPI settings.

So right now the term is being used for at least 3 different things. As far as I can tell, when most people in the mouse community hear "smoothing" they think of the original-mouse-community-term which was to describe *a feeling of inaccurate, smoothed out cursor movement*. So really, I think your way would be the most confusing for the most amount of people. But I'm not totally against it as long as we can come up with distinct terms to describe distinct phenomena.

What I will insist on is that the original "feeling of smoothing" is NOT in the FM, but IS in other mice which qsxcv says do not have the same MCU filtering that the FM does. So they are clearly, 100% different phenomena.

@a_ak57

I have provided those reasons over and over. I did it again in this comment, so please try to read and comprehend what I've been saying.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> @ wareya
> 
> Ok, so what I understand is that "smoothing" has an official definition outside of mice. Fine.


That should be the end of this, but apparently it's not.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> There is still a problem that the *mouse community* is using the term for at least 3 different, probably unrelated, phenomena. So to solve this problem we have to agree on different terms for different phenomena.


We don't _need_ to. That's not how language works. You should only ask people to clarify on what they mean, not tell them they're using words you don't like.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I had this conversation already with qsxcv at least 6 months ago, and we agreed to call his findings "filtering" or "averaging". If you want to redefine this as "smoothing" then come up with something else to call what was originally being described as a feeling of smoothing.


This word is not something that was originally about "a feeling of smoothing". The reason this term is used in mice in the first place is to describe signal smoothing. There are other kinds of filtering than smoothing, and there are other kinds of smoothing than averaging.

qsxcv was just meeting you half way for the sake of conversation. He wasn't condoning your terminological crusade.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> There's also Logitech who decided to start applying the term towards anti-jitter algorithms implemented on high DPI settings.


That's *where it started.*

Think about it. "Smooth" should be a good thing. But it's not, because you're using it based on a feeling of laggy swampiness. Which is primarily caused by... *smoothing*, the process, which causes input lag when applied to motion signals. You're mixing up A->B.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> So right now the term is being used for at least 3 different things. As far as I can tell, when most people in the mouse community hear "smoothing" they think of the original-mouse-community-term which was to describe a feeling of cursor movement.


Smoothing = input lag = bad

They don't think "The word smoothing means input lag". They think "Smoothing the thing causes input lag".
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> So really, I think your way would be the most confusing for the most amount of people. But I'm not totally against it as long as we can come up with distinct terms to describe distinct phenomena.


What's confusing is telling people that are using a term in the most perfect and technically correct sense that they're wrong because of a small group of people's preference to use that term for something else. The mouse community is not "five people on OCN", and the mouse community is not somehow magically divorced from all language elsewhere.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> What I will insist on is that the original "feeling of smoothing" is NOT in the FM,


Ok.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> but IS in other mice which qsxcv says do not have the same MCU filtering that the FM does. So they are clearly, 100% different phenomena.


You can't feel the difference between smoothing and a combination of swamp cursor and input lag. If you are so insistent on calling the feeling something different from the process, then call the feeling input lag or swamp cursor. Don't go around telling people who are using the technical term correctly that they are wrong.


----------



## Maximillion

https://youtu.be/s64M5hnSMjE?t=134 (2:14 for mobile)

#relevant


----------



## SmashTV

Video features Logitech? You shill! /s


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> https://youtu.be/s64M5hnSMjE?t=134 (2:14 for mobile)
> 
> #relevant


Really interesting video, every time I see the machine made to click mice I sort of just find it such a silly idea but I understand why they do it. I find it kind of ironic that they talk about comfortable shapes but Logitech makes shapes for aliens, but at least this guy knows what's up and doesn't try to market gimmicks I guess.


----------



## Poodle

Out of curiosity I compared G303 and G100s. G303 felt more "floaty". Does that mean it has somekind of extra processing?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Yet you don't claim that the 3366 and DA4g have it even though their graphs are similarly tight?


3366 and 3988 have higher max framerates (~12000) vs ~7000 for 3310.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> so there is more to cursor feeling than being as "raw" as possible.


yea
-weight (inb4 maxkohler rants about how it's not weight. for some people, including myself, weight does affect the overall feeling of the tracking)
-bias from all the positive reviews and maxkohler's comments
-bias due to my revelation of how there is processing and smoothing


----------



## TriviumKM

It's obvious some here just like the feeling of a bit of smoothing, but for some odd reason don't want to admit it.


----------



## Scrimstar

most dramatic thread OCN


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Welp tournament pro is unreleased still and Feenixfinalmouse's #1 fan has returned.


----------



## jtl999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> This reminds me, didn't r0ach say be could tell the difference between 1 DPI increment or something along those lines? man I miss that guy


It was his Sensei review.


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> It was his Sensei review.


then that's understandable as 1 dpi was actually either no dpi change or a 90 dpi increment


----------



## zeflow

Any news if the pro will be avail on amazon today?!


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Any news if the pro will be avail on amazon today?!


Highly doubtful


----------



## MaximilianKohler

>We don't need to. That's not how language works. You should only ask people to clarify on what they mean, not tell them they're using words you don't like.

I guess we have completely different ideas of how language works... I guess in your world it's completely acceptable to use the same word for completely different phenomena. Yeah, that's not confusing at all. That sounds like a great use of language. It's got absolutely nothing to do with me not liking a word. Why are you injecting such ridiculous statements?

>This word is not something that was originally about "a feeling of smoothing".

Which word? "Smoothing"? I've been following mice for 10+ years while playing competitive CS and trying to find a better mouse, and the first time I saw the word used in the gaming/mouse community was exactly that. I really don't know at what point you entered into the community and first saw it used to describe a technical "signal smoothing".

>>There's also Logitech who decided to start applying the term towards anti-jitter algorithms implemented on high DPI settings.
>That's where it started.

Ok, well this really clears it up. Logitech was WAYYYY late to the whole "smoothing" thing. They might have been the first ones to go "ooh this 'smoothing' talk is getting a lot of attention in the gaming/mouse community, lets say our new mouse has 0 smoothing".

So what we've just learned is you came really late into the discussion when the term was already starting to be abused.

Also, Logitech's mice that they claimed to have 0 smoothing on, did indeed have the feeling of smoothing that the community was referring to with that term.

I've never mentioned input lag. The smoothing I'm talking about may be causing input lag, but it may also just be messing with the feeling of the tracking in another way. As far as I know, qsxcv's testing shows that the FM has more input lag than other mice which feel like they have more smoothing.

>What's confusing is telling people that are using a term in the most perfect and technically correct sense that they're wrong because of a small group of people's preference to use that term for something else.

I understand that. The issue is that the term was originally used by the gaming/mouse community to refer to something else.

>The mouse community is not "five people on OCN", and the mouse community is not somehow magically divorced from all language elsewhere.

Well it spread like wildfire, so it was not just contained to a few people on this forum.

>call the feeling input lag or swamp cursor

Ehh, this might be our only option at this point, but neither of those do a great job at accurately describing the phenomena. "Floaty" might be a slightly better term. But it really depends on the mouse. I'd describe the original zowie mice as feeling "floaty" and the DA3.5g as feeling like "swamp cursor".
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> 3366 and 3988 have higher max framerates (~12000) vs ~7000 for 3310.


So you're saying it's the higher max framerates on those that cause the xvelocity curve to be tighter, but on the FM it's the MCU filtering?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> It's obvious some here just like the feeling of a bit of smoothing, but for some odd reason don't want to admit it.


We've been over this before. You're also still mixing up two different phenomena.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> Out of curiosity I compared G303 and G100s. G303 felt more "floaty". Does that mean it has somekind of extra processing?


I don't think anyone knows the source of those various "inaccurate, floaty" feelings yet.


----------



## qsxcv

if you don't agree that the stuff that i call smoothing is *a* cause of the "smoothing feeling" that maxkohler likes to talk about
1. get a 3988 or 9800 mouse
2. set to 6400 dpi, or higher for 9800
3. set windows sensitivity to 2/11
4. ???
5. profit

once you're sufficiently convinced that this sort of sensor processing directly causes the "smoothing feeling", i can say two things for certain
1. the fm2015 and all other 3310 mice have exactly this sort of thing in it, with X=4ms at low speeds and X=2ms at higher speeds. http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24401212
2. the finalmouse's firmware (also some other holtek mcu-based mice's firmwares) does something extremely similar in the firmware

so the great mystery is why maxkohler doesn't feel the "smoothing feeling" in the finalmouse, yet does feel the "smoothing feeling" in other mice with less data processing and averaging. some possibilities
1. finalmouse shill. jk, i don't but i think there are some people around here who think so








2. the amount of smoothing (data averaging algorithms) in the fm2015 is not noticeable to him, and some other hidden variable causes those other mice to give him the "smoothing feeling"

my theory: that other hidden variable is the fact that finalmouse starts with the letter "f", and gaming mice made by companies that start with the letter "f" automatically feel more responsive than other companies' mice


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> lol k so i just wrote 0xff to register 0x33
> 
> and got 10500dpi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> along with a perpetually jittering cursor.
> 
> the behavior for register 0x33 appears to be:
> bit 6: if 0, cpi is determined by bits 0-4 in register 0x0d. if 1, bits 0-5 in this register determines cpi
> bits 0-5: value here * (250/3) = dpi this register sets
> bit 7: if 1, double the dpi, regardless of bit 6
> 
> so the maximum possible through this register is
> 2 * (0b00111111) * (250/3) = 2 * 63 * 250/3 = 10500
> the max possible through the normal dpi register 0x0d is 2 * 21 * 250 = 10500 as well.
> 
> and if you lift up the mouse the right amount (i used a qtip) and don't touch it at all, you can get some very nice random walks:


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> at 10500cpi, it only helps a little bit, because so much of the jitter is like >=2 counts, even without lifting the mouse.
> 
> and this is what the smoothing registers do:
> 
> clearly 4 frames is nowhere near enough to get rid of this craziness
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ill try register 0x18 later. getting tired of pressing the reset button and flashing every time i want to change dpi or a register setting.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> So you're saying it's the higher max framerates on those that cause the xvelocity curve to be tighter, but on the FM it's the MCU filtering?


assuming no firmware processing and stable timing in the firmware for sensor data reading:
the relative amplitude of the fluctuations is approximately equal to (usb polling freq)/(sensor framerate). mcu smoothing as done in the finalmouse decrease the amplitude by 2-3x


----------



## MaximilianKohler

You know what, "artificial", "disconnected", and "not snappy" are actually pretty good as far as descriptive terms to use instead. In the past Ino took issue with the word "artificial", saying that "all mouse movement is processed in some way, and therefore all artificial. But at this point we don't have many better options.

>so the great mystery is why maxkohler doesn't feel the "smoothing feeling" in the finalmouse, yet does feel the "smoothing feeling" in other mice with less data processing and averaging.

As I've said before, I'm not the only one, and possibly not even the first one. There are a number of reviewers on youtube that made the same conclusions. Keep in mind the MLT04 has the same statements being said about it, and it doesn't have the MCU filtering that you've been showing either.

>fm shill

You'd think that with all my hard work shilling for them they would have at least already sent me some ambi samples to test
















Also pretty sure I released my youtube review that pointed out a bunch of problems with the FM before you even started testing it









>my theory: that other hidden variable is the fact that finalmouse starts with the letter "f", and gaming mice made by companies that start with the letter "f" automatically feel more responsive than other companies' mice

Wow, really? That statement is basically saying that you've personally discovered all there is to know about the technical side of mice. That's quite a statement qsxcv.

>the amount of smoothing (data averaging algorithms) in the fm2015 is not noticeable to him

How many times do I have to address this? So far it's probably been probably close to 10 times. Is 15 the magic number? 20?


----------



## PU skunk

After an hour of drawing boxes in Paint the FM is a pixel magnet compared to my beat up 2005 WMO found at goodwill. $5 of pure happy!!


----------



## qsxcv

>therefore all artificial. But at this point we don't have many better options.
ball mice








>As I've said before, I'm not the only one
i know you aren't
and there are also people who think the opposite as you, so the fact that you have some people agreeing with you does not validate your opinion
>That statement is basically saying
was a joke


----------



## Buttnose

derp


----------



## speedyeggtart

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Welp tournament pro is unreleased still and Feenixfinalmouse's #1 fan has returned.


I see you and some one else mention this... is Feenix and Finalmouse the same company/owner?


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *speedyeggtart*
> 
> I see you and some one else mention this... is Feenix and Finalmouse the same company/owner?


Would you be bitter if they were?


----------



## Poodle

This is an interesting thread:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1188509/fps-in-mouse

Higher fps smoother but less accurate








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> It's actually a balance.
> Let me explain, but keep in mind that's only how I am figuring out it happens from my experience studying CS :
> 
> Sensor takes a number of "pictures" from your mousepad, let's say for simplicity they're taken at a 9x9 pixels resolution (a small, low-quality square), at 125 fps, and is connected to your PC at usb rate of 125Hz (hence it would be 1:1 matching and there would be no need of MCU/MPU). Let's consider the mousing surface an ideal one, that the sensor can differentiate with ease, and let's say that each "picture" the mouse takes of the surface is a perfect 1x1 mm square. Also let's consider mouse optics and the sensor a flawless one (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Then we would have a mouse that each frame could tell you if you moved one position to each side, so the additions or substractions on the cartesian plane would work a bit like that matrix :
> (-1,1) (0,1) (1,1)
> (-1,0) (0,0) (1,0)
> (-1,-1) (0,-1) (1,-1)
> 
> So both in the x and y plane the differences referring to your current position would be translated into your mouse pointer, raw, no interpolation, no processing, 125 times per second, fully synchronized.
> 
> What you would have here, though, would be that in a certain speed that you move in a certain axis, you would hit negative acceleration, which would happen once you move faster than constant 125mm/s, which would make you go at 0.125m/s, which is laughable.
> 
> Let's put more fps on that sensor, and let it hit 1000 "pictures" taken per second, and let's overclock the USB port up to 1000Hz.
> 
> Now you will have that your negative acceleration would be hit at 1000mm/s or 1m/s, which is much, much better than the example above.
> 
> We can, from here, fork into three ways of improving the mouse perfect tracking speed :
> 
> *a) We make the sensor take higher-resolution pictures.*
> So instead of a 9x9 pixel matrix in which we only add or substract 1 unit on each axis, we can have a 17x17* matrix of pixels to compare with previous input, hence maximum change would be abs((8,8)), and thus that would fill into a 3byte bus** or a 17-bit bus (which is NOT standard). (This would be translated as having higher DPI on the mouse)
> 
> Here we have to make a compromise :
> 1- If we keep 1 squared mm area for snapshots, it means having much better scanning technology and it would be much more expensive, but it would have much higher DPI, probably a very low LOD (borderline to unusable) and a perfect tracking speed of up to 16000mm/s or a whooping ass 16m/s in the most ideal conditions. This approach is the one that was taken when the first laser mice came out, and it's supposing perfect surface scanning. But that's not realistic, let's see the other pharagraph :
> 
> 2- If we think our mouse should not be too expensive, and thus we strive for a cheaper way to achieve good results, we'll make a compromise and make the mouse scan a wider area with the same 17x17* resolution we defined before here in a), so let's say we take a 10x10mm (or a square centimeter) area for our snapshots. That would boost our DPI the same as in 1-, we would have a higher LOD (depending on lens it would be from 1-2mm to 1cm), it would be a "cheaper" way to boost performance but the perfect tracking speed would go at 1600mm/s or 1.6m/s.
> 
> Of course, if we forced the sensor to take the same pictures at 5x5mm (half a square centimeter), we would get 3200mm/s or a more desireable 3.2m/s. But that would be far more expensive again, as the tech would need to be much sharper (and higher res).
> 
> * Odd number just so we have a line that acts as "previous x" and another line that acts as "previous y", else it would jitter A LOT if there was no soft or MCU controlling what the default was. Else we would have one side and either up or down clipped one count.
> ** Range would be -8 to 8, effectively 17 bits, so it would actually be 2bytes + 1 bit, typed 3 bytes for simplicity
> 
> *b) We make the sensor take more pictures per second.*
> We still have our "ownage" 9x9 pixel matrix to compare over our last capture, but now we upgrade it accordingly :
> - The sensor now captures at 5000fps
> - We introduce a MCU that takes care of the excess input, since now we would have 5 scans for each output to the USB, so that MCU only adds the number of counts of the last 5 scans (and since our sensor is "perfect", we don't need to think about bugged or invalid scans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), which would make a max number per axis of abs(5,5), thus at much we would need 11 bits per axis (range -5..5).
> 
> So now, our improved, high fps sensor, with a perfect implementation of the MCU and perfect sensor, would be tracking at 5000mm/s or 5m/s.
> 
> But the more FPS, the less reliable the sensor gets :
> -The scanning area and the resolution would be the same, so taking 5x the number of snapshots would be much more expensive to implement without faulty scans (and thus we would need a MCU to discriminate good and bad scans, or a newer technology [such as laser was when it was introduced]).
> - To not to make the sensor too expensive, we would be able to reduce the resolution of the sensor in order to save some space and silicon, optimize the results, and get only matrixes of either 4 or 5 elements instead of 9 (We would need the MCU to calculate the optimized movement).
> - The MCU would cause a (minimal) delay and could also produce some "anomalies" depending on the implementation (jittering, input lag, angle snapping, etc), so it has also some letdowns.
> 
> Also, such a sensor would be more expensive than our "beloved" 1000fps one.
> 
> *c) We make the sensor take pictures in a wider area.*
> So with the same resolution, we would have a wider area to take the snapshots, so the chances of taking _good_ snapshots are greater, but that would increase LOD dramatically.
> Since we don't change the resolution or the fps, the maximum perfect tracking speed would be 1m/s, but since we have a bigger area, we could go and try to modify other aspects of the mouse to gain performance :
> 
> 1- We up the resolution of the sensor, so with a wider area, we get more DPI. Thus we get the improvement of a) on board. Since the area is greater, the LOD would be higher (you can't scan from a certain angle, you're restricted by the lens), but we would have a similar pixel density as we had at first, just with much higher resolution. So if we had the same 17x17 resolution sensor as a)2-, we would already have 1.6m/s of perfect tracking out of the box. But the wider the area, the more resolution we can have with the same density, so we could crank the DPI high up, let's imagine it would take 33x33 snapshots, we would have 3.2m/s of perfect tracking. Of course, it is far more expensive to have a sensor at 1000fps taking 33x33 snapshots than one that only takes them at 17x17, but you need to compromise somewhere.
> 
> 2- We up the fps of the sensor (and add a MCU). Since we've got a wider area and the same 9x9 resolution with which we started, the number of good snapshots should be way higher, so the number of anomalies would go down, and should be filtered by the MCU whenever they happen. We can achieve a huge amount of fps by making the area wider, but it's in compromise with the resolution, so we would end up having a perfect tracking speed of as many thousands of fps we would have (in that example).
> 
> 3- We balance both and manage to improve resolution AND fps (it seems to be happening currently with the best optical mice out there), so we get a compromise between high DPI/CPI/PPI and lots of fps, thus we have the benefits of higher perfect tracking speed and more resolution, without making the sensor much more expensive (thus being valid for scale market economies), so we're talking of around 2-5m/s of perfect tracking speed and CPI as high as around even 4000, both coupled up. If we add an MCU here, we can get different DPI steps by modifying both the fps and the resolution at which the sensor works, thus we will get different max tracking speeds at each step for a given implementation of the sensor/lens/MCU.
> 
> Sorry for the wall of text, and I am responsible for any inaccuracy that you might find, which I guess there are many


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> if you don't agree that the stuff that i call smoothing is *a* cause of the "smoothing feeling" that maxkohler likes to talk about
> 1. get a 3988 or 9800 mouse
> 2. set to 6400 dpi, or higher for 9800
> 3. set windows sensitivity to 2/11
> 4. ???
> 5. profit
> 
> once you're sufficiently convinced that this sort of sensor processing directly causes the "smoothing feeling", i can say two things for certain
> 1. the fm2015 and all other 3310 mice have exactly this sort of thing in it, with X=4ms at low speeds and X=2ms at higher speeds. http://www.overclock.net/t/1563813/somewhat-objectively-evaluating-sensor-responsiveness/300_100#post_24401212
> 2. the finalmouse's firmware (also some other holtek mcu-based mice's firmwares) does something extremely similar in the firmware
> 
> so the great mystery is why maxkohler doesn't feel the "smoothing feeling" in the finalmouse, yet does feel the "smoothing feeling" in other mice with less data processing and averaging. some possibilities
> 1. finalmouse shill. jk, i don't but i think there are some people around here who think so
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. the amount of smoothing (data averaging algorithms) in the fm2015 is not noticeable to him, and some other hidden variable causes those other mice to give him the "smoothing feeling"
> 
> my theory: that other hidden variable is the fact that finalmouse starts with the letter "f", and gaming mice made by companies that start with the letter "f" automatically feel more responsive than other companies' mice


Dear god, I set my 3988 mouse to 6,400 DPI and 2/11 windows sensitivity and it feels like there's so much delay, it also felt like some type of angle snapping got enabled with it.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> After an hour of drawing boxes in Paint the FM is a pixel magnet compared to my beat up 2005 WMO found at goodwill. $5 of pure happy!!


What do you mean by this?


----------



## daav1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> What do you mean by this?


I think he means it's easier to do small pixel movements with the FM than the WMO.


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daav1d*
> 
> I think he means it's easier to do small pixel movements with the FM than the WMO.


other way around .. all 3310s i've used (rival zowies fm) have the sticky pixel thing for me :S


----------



## Poodle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> other way around .. all 3310s i've used (rival zowies fm) have the sticky pixel thing for me :S


Is it possible that the difference what you are experiencing is caused by mouse weight distribution?


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> Is it possible that the difference what you are experiencing is caused by mouse weight distribution?


doubtful, felt it on za12, fk1, fk2, rival, fm

didnt feel it on the zowie am, loved that mouse but didnt want the click latency, put the fk2 board in it (directly swappable no mods needed) and it was pretty much unusable right away

I think it's more noticeable at my higher sensi, most people using 400 dpi n under 2 sensi might not have as much trouble as I did


----------



## Harrywang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> As you can see on Rafa's page, the beta firmware for the Avior 7000 changes the response to something close to the MLT04. You can't deny his test results. By the way, qsxcv was able to remove smoothing from his custom AM010 [G100S], you might want to ask him about that.
> 
> Go in game with your MLT04 mouse and try to make small movements. You'll see how much effort is necessary just to make a small adjustment, how that can be very problematic for flicks shots and tracking continuously strafing players. When you watch that Scream video at 0.5x speed you will see him struggle with the exact thing I am talking about. The MLT04 mice are great for Quake, they're not really great for GO.


Just want to pop in and say I'm using multiple mlt04 mouse and consider it the best mouse for FPS games, no matter what game it is. I've used the g400 for 2+ years, deathadder for a good couple months and they can't compare at all to the mlt04. It's literally on another tier from them. After my g400 broke I popped in my sisters intellimouse 1.1 and I was getting INSTANT headshots in CS GO. It just felt so easy. I'm not saying if you get a mlt04 you'll be instant pro but before the g400 I was using an WMO for over 5+ years so I'm very aware of the shape and feel of the windows mice. I'm an supreme master first class if that holds any value (I wouild honestly be GE but I don't play as much)

So I don't really know where you get that "it's hard to make small adjuistment". If anything it should be easier with the 400 dpi + 500mhz polling rate. Another thing is the flickshots. I make some INSANE flickshots and it's not hard to do at all. If anything filckshots really depends on your mousepad.

You just get perfect tracking and mouse movement. I loved the g400 everything about it was great but after using it and then coming back to the intellimouse you can really tell the difference. I've also used the deathadder which is great but again, it's not on the same tier as an MLT04. I've yet to find any mouse that can come close to the mlt04 and TBH I've stopped trying as this mouse is just perfect IMO. All these new gaming mice these days are always going to have something wrong with them. Remember bst's mouse?


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> other way around .. all 3310s i've used (rival zowies fm) have the sticky pixel thing for me :S


same. wmo always felt the most raw, it was the go-to mouse in paint to see if there was mouse correction on newer mice. drawing tiny objects in paint always felt the most accurate and raw with the wmo

yet people in this thread say it's bad for cs:go and it has a deadzone and there's better sensors. you can talk about your 'feelings' all day long drawing stuff in paint, but the wmo and 3.0 feel the most responsive, accurate, and raw than pretty much any other mouse.

when you spend too much time reading datasheets and don't actually play, you end up with ridiculous statements like this
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> Go in game with your MLT04 mouse and try to make small movements. You'll see how much effort is necessary just to make a small adjustment, how that can be very problematic for flicks shots and tracking continuously strafing players.


how long did we see wmos and 3.0s in tournaments for cs and quake and other games? so cypher from quake was winning everything and using a bad mouse? how could cypher hit those shots if he's using a mouse that is hard to make small movements? it's just ridiculous, some of the most insane, crazy shots have happened on this mouse, to say the mouse is bad because of some one pixel deadzone is insane. talk to cs and quake players and ask them about the difficulty tracking and issues making small movements with the wmo and you'll find out how crazy that statement really is


----------



## ncck

The only way the WMO felt 'raw' to me is if I used it in the ps/2 slot but then it would be all 'laggy' when turning. Not sure what everyone else is on about though. The 3366 just feels like the 3310 except an improvement and I can't get it to malfunction on my low sens like I could the 3310. The future is good


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> The only way the WMO felt 'raw' to me is if I used it in the ps/2 slot but then it would be all 'laggy' when turning. Not sure what everyone else is on about though. The 3366 just feels like the 3310 except an improvement and I can't get it to malfunction on my low sens like I could the 3310. The future is good


sounds like it's not on 500hz


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> other way around .. all 3310s i've used (rival zowies fm) have the sticky pixel thing for me :S


I feel the exact same thing. PMW3310 feels like it would resist one pixel movements and tracing small objects that have multiple sharp corners feels very off with the PMW3310. In faster speeds I don't notice a big difference.

Overall of all the sensors I've used, the PMW3310's tracking feels the most artificial. That's just my subjective opinion though and I am not going to rank every mouse that has it bad - shape matters a million times more.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

So far I have not been able to spot the difference between 3310 tournament pro and 3360 s1 in a blind test









We'll see what happens when I get my hands on the new stm32 implementation


----------



## a_ak57

Isn't that something you shouldn't say since at best you're telling us your more expensive mouse isn't actually better and at worst you're not actually able to tell the differences between sensors thus your opinions/statements aren't trustworthy?


----------



## Aymanb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Isn't that something you shouldn't say since at best you're telling us your more expensive mouse isn't actually better and at worst you're not actually able to tell the differences between sensors thus your opinions/statements aren't trustworthy?


No.

Much better than the "worlds best mouse you will ever have your hands on, you don't need a gf anymore, when you use this, your virginity is pretty much lost" Plus it can mean that Tournament pro is just THAT good









(need to give me a FM 2016 for free for this jude)


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> Isn't that something you shouldn't say since at best you're telling us your more expensive mouse isn't actually better and at worst you're not actually able to tell the differences between sensors thus your opinions/statements aren't trustworthy?


You are probably right ! But in my personal opinion I just find it interesting.... I think shape and other factors play a bigger role with my senses. But it could mean I just have bad genetic ability to sense sensor differences. If I had to jump into a match with an ambi after warming up with a classic ergo it's a lot harder than just switching from ambi to s1.

Edit: Also I notice a big difference between fresh Teflon and worn in Teflon. This is actually one of the biggest things for me. If the coating on the Teflon has not worn in smaller movements are much harder to make and the mouse also feels way more sensitive. Little things like this for some reason I notice well before sensor.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> all 3310s i've used (rival zowies fm) have the sticky pixel thing for me :S


Yea, I mean you can see and feel FM smoothing pretty easy in Paint. It sticks to vertical/horizontal lines sort of like Photoshop's magnetic lasso tool. Much harder to do with the WMO. I was calling it "filtering" out of respect but if that's not some form of smoothing I dunno what is. My 1st gen Deathadder is even worse.


----------



## Poodle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> So far I have not been able to spot the difference between 3310 tournament pro and 3360 s1 in a blind test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see what happens when I get my hands on the new stm32 implementation


Thats like saying christianity and atheism is the same thing. I concur. All heil to shape.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Poodle*
> 
> Thats like saying christianity and atheism is the same thing. I concur. All heil to shape.


lol what


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> You are probably right ! But in my personal opinion I just find it interesting.... I think shape and other factors play a bigger role with my senses. But it could mean I just have bad genetic ability to sense sensor differences. If I had to jump into a match with an ambi after warming up with a classic ergo it's a lot harder than just switching from ambi to s1.
> 
> Edit: Also I notice a big difference between fresh Teflon and worn in Teflon. This is actually one of the biggest things for me. If the coating on the Teflon has not worn in smaller movements are much harder to make and the mouse also feels way more sensitive. Little things like this for some reason I notice well before sensor.


Jude can we expect the ambi's on amazon by monday?


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> same. wmo always felt the most raw, it was the go-to mouse in paint to see if there was mouse correction on newer mice. drawing tiny objects in paint always felt the most accurate and raw with the wmo
> 
> yet people in this thread say it's bad for cs:go and it has a deadzone and there's better sensors. you can talk about your 'feelings' all day long drawing stuff in paint, but the wmo and 3.0 feel the most responsive, accurate, and raw than pretty much any other mouse.


i guess what they are talking about when they say they cant move single pixel is the rest state in mlt04 coming in too fast .. its noticeable on the first movement you make from standstill .. i personally was never affected by it much even though i can feel it


----------



## aLv1080

Doing an A/B test isn't the best way to test mice and other stuff. Just give it a time, use the ambi for more than a week, then switch to the s1 and test it for the same time, and then switch back to the ambi. You'll probably notice a difference.

For me, while the 3310 feels more raw than the 3090 or mlt04, I do feel some kind of deadzone. Actually, I can't say if it's a deadzone or something, but it's more dificult to track players on csgo and to do small movements. It could be just placebo, or just the mouse feet, or whatever...
But I couldn't feel that with the G100s, or even with the Zowie AM.


----------



## Aymanb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Doing an A/B test isn't the best way to test mice and other stuff. Just give it a time, use the ambi for more than a week, then switch to the s1 and test it for the same time, and then switch back to the ambi. You'll probably notice a difference.
> 
> For me, while the 3310 feels more raw than the 3090 or mlt04, I do feel some kind of deadzone. Actually, I can't say if it's a deadzone or something, but it's more dificult to track players on csgo and to do small movements. It could be just placebo, or just the mouse feet, or whatever...
> But I couldn't feel that with the G100s, or even with the Zowie AM.


I have the same issue with Zowie mice and the mionix castor I tried. I don't feel confident awping either, while with my DA it's much more snappy and instant responsiveness, just a shame I hate the shape of it.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> You are probably right ! But in my personal opinion I just find it interesting.... I think shape and other factors play a bigger role with my senses. But it could mean I just have bad genetic ability to sense sensor differences. If I had to jump into a match with an ambi after warming up with a classic ergo it's a lot harder than just switching from ambi to s1.
> 
> Edit: Also I notice a big difference between fresh Teflon and worn in Teflon. This is actually one of the biggest things for me. If the coating on the Teflon has not worn in smaller movements are much harder to make and the mouse also feels way more sensitive. Little things like this for some reason I notice well before sensor.


Same here


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> i guess what they are talking about when they say they cant move single pixel is the rest state in mlt04 coming in too fast .. its noticeable on the first movement you make from standstill .. i personally was never affected by it much even though i can feel it


while this might be true, in application it will never come up or be an issue. in an fps or rts, you never encounter that kind of mouse movement in-game. also it's still way more accurate and 'raw' in paint than most sensors. if we're talking about paint, I rather have an issue moving one pixel than have every single movement made by me
altered by smoothing or correction.

it's not worth any weight for anyone to argue this is somehow a crutch to the wmo. this is important to some people because they wanna nerd out with info and argue what mouse is the best on paper, when in reality it's very different. a casual osu player on 60hz is entitled to an opinion, it doesn't make him right

also, please tell me people are doing these tests on 120hz+ monitors. i really hope no one is comparing different mice under a 60hz environment.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> So far I have not been able to spot the difference between 3310 tournament pro and 3360 s1 in a blind test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see what happens when I get my hands on the new stm32 implementation


Try a variety of hard pads, if the 3310 in the ambi is implemented the same way as it is in the ergo, then you will have tracking issues.


----------



## PU skunk

[/quote]
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> i guess what they are talking about when they say they cant move single pixel is the rest state in mlt04 coming in too fast .. its noticeable on the first movement you make from standstill


That is what I was thinking. The feeling is sort of like MLT 04 slows down with you and sticks? I didn't know if that was me or placebo.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeMS*
> 
> It's actually a balance.


the mcu is not aware of the framerate of the sensor at all. the sensor just accumulates data in the registers, and ideally the mcu reads them every 1ms (in sync with usb polling), which causes the registers to be reset. all else being equal, framerate does not affect the load on the mcu/firmware at all

also the "bits" calculation doesnt really make sense. you can store numbers between -2^(n-1) to 2^(n-1)-1 using n bits.

anyway

a common misconception is that lower framerates are better because there is a larger change between consecutive frames, so the relative error in the data is less. this only applies if the sensor updates the reference frame (frame against which the current frame is compared to determine motion) every frame. but for slow motion, the reference frame is not updated continually, and only when the current frame is displaced by a predetermined threshold. this is necessary to avoid having the cursor's motion turn into a random walk, when the mouse isn't actually moving. so, all else being equal, higher framerate does not decrease accuracy.

in practice however, the 9500, 9800, 3310, 3988/3989, 3366 do have multiple modes with differing framerates, with the lower ones used for low-speed motion and the higher ones for high speed motion. the reason is that the sensor not only changes the framerate when changing modes but also the amount of processing. more info here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1579636/patent-detailing-how-mlt04-works/0_100#post_24583399
basically the lower-fr modes allow for the sensor dsp to process the data more thoroughly when those modes are used. but some people (iirc popups for the 3366) claim that the tracking feels inconsistent at high and low speeds due to the differing modes.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the mcu is not aware of the framerate of the sensor at all. the sensor just accumulates data in the registers, and ideally the mcu reads them every 1ms (in sync with usb polling), which causes the registers to be reset. all else being equal, framerate does not affect the load on the mcu/firmware at all
> 
> a common misconception is that lower framerates are better because there is a larger change between consecutive frames, so the relative error in the data is less. this only applies if the sensor updates the reference frame (frame against which the current frame is compared to determine motion) every frame. but for slow motion, the reference frame is not updated continually, and only when the current frame is displaced by a predetermined threshold. this is necessary to avoid having the cursor's motion turn into a random walk, when the mouse isn't actually moving. so, all else being equal, higher framerate does not decrease accuracy.
> 
> in practice however, the 9500, 9800, 3310, 3988/3989, 3366 do have multiple modes with differing framerates, with the lower ones used for low-speed motion and the higher ones for high speed motion. the reason is that the sensor not only changes the framerate when changing modes but also the amount of processing. more info here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1579636/patent-detailing-how-mlt04-works/0_100#post_24583399
> basically the lower-fr modes allow for the sensor dsp to process the data more thoroughly when those modes are used. but some people (iirc popups for the 3366) claim that the tracking feels inconsistent at high and low speeds due to the differing modes.


How does the 9500/9800 feel/perform when you set it to non variable frame rate? How does it behave at a low fixed rate and a high fixed rate?

People around here claim/theorize (based off patent sheets?) that a high fixed rate will decrease performance.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Doing an A/B test isn't the best way to test mice and other stuff. Just give it a time, use the ambi for more than a week, then switch to the s1 and test it for the same time, and then switch back to the ambi. You'll probably notice a difference.
> 
> For me, while the 3310 feels more raw than the 3090 or mlt04, I do feel some kind of deadzone. Actually, I can't say if it's a deadzone or something, but it's more dificult to track players on csgo and to do small movements. It could be just placebo, or just the mouse feet, or whatever...
> But I couldn't feel that with the G100s, or even with the Zowie AM.


Dead zone on the MLT04 or the 3310?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> How does the 9500/9800 feel/perform when you set it to non variable frame rate? How does it behave at a low fixed rate and a high fixed rate?


can't really say from personal experience because, the only 9500 and 9800 mice i have, evga torq x5l and torq x3l, are fixed-fr (~12000)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> The only way the WMO felt 'raw' to me is if I used it in the ps/2 slot but then it would be all 'laggy' when turning. Not sure what everyone else is on about though. The 3366 just feels like the 3310 except an improvement and I can't get it to malfunction on my low sens like I could the 3310. The future is good


My Microsoft mice behave differently on PS/2 than they do on USB. For instance, the LED doesn't return to full brightness at the same speed of motion.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> So far I have not been able to spot the difference between 3310 tournament pro and 3360 s1 in a blind test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see what happens when I get my hands on the new stm32 implementation


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> Yea, I mean you can see and feel FM smoothing pretty easy in Paint. It sticks to vertical/horizontal lines sort of like Photoshop's magnetic lasso tool. Much harder to do with the WMO. I was calling it "filtering" out of respect but if that's not some form of smoothing I dunno what is. My 1st gen Deathadder is even worse.


The 3310 appears/feels to have more angle snapping. It's much easier to do straight lines at various speeds. This characteristic helps less skilled people with their flick shots and tracking on a flat plane. If the mouse isn't perfectly aligned in your hand it's not that big of a deal when using the 3310. Some CS players will likely (subconsciously) prefer this behavior because their head shot consistency would improve.

The 3366 does make it easy to draw straight lines, but it isn't as dominating as the 3310. This behavior makes it much better for tracking targets that are not on a flat surface and have a lot more diagonal movements. The sensor seems more suitable for games like Quake than the 3310 does. If you can set the degrees of angle snapping on the 3366 or 3360 you could achieve behavior that's akin to the 3310.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> while this might be true, in application it will never come up or be an issue. in an fps or rts, you never encounter that kind of mouse movement in-game. also it's still way more accurate and 'raw' in paint than most sensors. if we're talking about paint, I rather have an issue moving one pixel than have every single movement made by me
> altered by smoothing or correction.
> 
> it's not worth any weight for anyone to argue this is somehow a crutch to the wmo. this is important to some people because they wanna nerd out with info and argue what mouse is the best on paper, when in reality it's very different. a casual osu player on 60hz is entitled to an opinion, it doesn't make him right
> 
> also, please tell me people are doing these tests on 120hz+ monitors. i really hope no one is comparing different mice under a 60hz environment.


I don't like how the MLT04 behaves when I have to make a small adjustment to land a head shot after I finished flicking my mouse, how it feels when I have to change directions to hit a strafing player in the head and how it feels like I am moving my mouse faster than the cursor is going on screen. For me it's very distracting, it ruins my focus, thereby making it more difficult to land head shots like I do with other mice. If I can ignore it I can do well until I get in the scenario where I have to make a small adjustment to my crosshair. I felt the same way about it using the MLT04 on PS/2 at 200Hz and 1000Hz on USB. I speculate that it could simply be the very low resolution of the MLT04.

This behavior from the MLT04 isn't much of an issue for games where the hit boxes/cylinders/capsules are large. Hence why I say the MLT04 mice would be great for a game like Quake, as Quake has very large hit cylinders and doesn't require head shots.

A game like GO requires very precise shots to increase the likelihood of landing a head shot because the spread code. You want something that can make tiny movements precisely and quickly. Obviously, the range from your target is a major factor.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> can't really say from personal experience because, the only 9500 and 9800 mice i have, evga torq x5l and torq x3l, are fixed-fr (~12000)


Oh. I thought you messed with the registries of the 9500 and 9800 using your Teensy. Maybe it's worth the effort to see?


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Dead zone on the MLT04 or the 3310?


On both, actually. The 3310 feels more raw than the mlt04 for me, but both of them have that weird deadzone feeling.
I couldn't notice it with some 3090 mice.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Oh. I thought you messed with the registries of the 9500 and 9800 using your Teensy. Maybe it's worth the effort to see?


i did, but not in an actual mouse... just with a sensor board (https://www.tindie.com/products/jkicklighter/adns-9800-optical-laser-sensor/)
not worth the effort imo and i don't have another pinless teensy board that i can easily stick into my x3l or x5l.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i did, but not in an actual mouse... just with a sensor board (https://www.tindie.com/products/jkicklighter/adns-9800-optical-laser-sensor/)
> not worth the effort imo and i don't have another pinless teensy board that i can easily stick into my x3l or x5l.


There's no apparent disadvantage with the EVGA mice running at a high fixed rate? A couple of people have said there would be issues doing such a thing. That kind of idea makes me think it's in the same realm as the MLT04 mice being 6000FPS.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There's no apparent disadvantage with the EVGA mice running at a high fixed rate? A couple of people have said there would be issues doing such a thing. That kind of idea makes me think it's in the same realm as the MLT04 mice being 6000FPS.


If you are basing it on what I said previously, forget that. I hadn't probed the shutter timings at all and qsxcv corrected it in the same thread. All the info we have is that low frame-rate is good for wireless applications and it leaves more time for post-processing in the DSP. Per se, low frame-rate is not used for noise reduction via better lit images.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> There's no apparent disadvantage with the EVGA mice running at a high fixed rate?


who knows

but for instance, maybe logitech measured the variance of the low-framerate mode with more thorough processing vs. the high-framerate mode with less thorough processing, and found that the more thorough processing reduces the variance by 0.3%, and hence they decided to have multiple modes in 3366.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> If you are basing it on what I said previously, forget that. I hadn't probed the shutter timings at all and qsxcv corrected it in the same thread. All the info we have is that low frame-rate is good for wireless applications and it leaves more time for post-processing in the DSP. Per se, low frame-rate is not used for noise reduction via better lit images.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> who knows
> 
> but for instance, maybe logitech measured the variance of the low-framerate mode with more thorough processing vs. the high-framerate mode with less thorough processing, and found that the more thorough processing reduces the variance by 0.3%, and hence they decided to have multiple modes in 3366.


I figured seeing how CMOS cameras work it would be beneficial to increase frame rates and have them locked. When I was mentioning this concept people were shooting it down. I couldn't argue against them because I can't prove them wrong (or correct) with physical evidence.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> *Why do you keep bringing up fixed frame rate as an improvement? I think Wareya (or maybe someone else who also actually understands image correlation algorithms and how they work) pointed out that there is no benefit to a high frame rate for lower speeds, more the contrary due to too little changes between images.*


Maybe the 3366 has a variable mode because it inherits it from the previous sensors? Could be that simple.

I wonder if the 3360 has FPS settings like the previous sensors do. Too bad FinalMouse doesn't have people who can answer those types of questions. Maybe FinalMouse has access to the datasheet or is the factory doing everything?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Maybe the 3366 has a variable mode because it inherits it from the previous sensors? Could be that simple.


maybe but 3366 has 4 run modes whereas 3988/3310 have only 3
Quote:


> I wonder if the 3360 has FPS settings like the previous sensors do.


thought i had told you already... but no it doesn't and its framerate modes are probably identical to those of 3366. (all that the datasheet says is 12000 max)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> thought i had told you already... but no it doesn't and its framerate modes are probably identical to those of 3366. (all that the datasheet says is 12000 max)


I wasn't assuming that the 3360 would be identical to the 3366. How do you know the 3360 is exactly like the 3366?

The newer "datasheets" don't show you everything. The public PixArt stuff is basically a snippet compared to the older Avago datasheets. You actually saw the datasheet for the 3366 and/or 3360?


----------



## Scrimstar

Is the IME 3.0 skates small enough to go under the stock skates or are they gonna hang off the edge? The bottom scraping on the back skates of the FM16 gets annoying, and the glide feels off.

http://www.amazon.com/Hyperglide-Microsoft-Intellimouse-Explorer-Optical/dp/B00X9FGBI8/ref=sr_1_5?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1453598530&sr=8-5&keywords=hyperglide


----------



## kashim

wan t buy screamone mouse...when they release it?


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> wan t buy screamone mouse...when they release it?


Do you bother to even try to find the information you're looking for before asking for it? Jude already talked about this, early March is optimistic and April at latest is what we were told iirc.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Do you bother to even try to find the information you're looking for before asking for it? Jude already talked about this, early March is optimistic and April at latest is what we were told iirc.


Why would someone take the time to search........?


----------



## Dylan Nails

never cared about finalmouse since they dont do ambidextrous. are they doing an ambidextrous version with 3360 with the scream version or whatever?


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> never cared about finalmouse since they dont do ambidextrous. are they doing an ambidextrous version with 3360 with the scream version or whatever?


screamone is ergo 3360 ambi is 3360 too ^^ shape pref


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Do you bother to even try to find the information you're looking for before asking for it? Jude already talked about this, early March is optimistic and April at latest is what we were told iirc.


i was at work and don t have so much time for make a search or read a lot of post,then i wrote for an info...then dddon t judge su fast


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Harrywang*
> 
> Just want to pop in and say I'm using multiple mlt04 mouse and consider it the best mouse for FPS games, no matter what game it is. I've used the g400 for 2+ years, deathadder for a good couple months and they can't compare at all to the mlt04. It's literally on another tier from them. After my g400 broke I popped in my sisters intellimouse 1.1 and I was getting INSTANT headshots in CS GO. It just felt so easy.


Had the same experience going from an mx518 to a 3.0.

I strongly preferred the 518's shape and build quality, but the sensor was just inferior except for the higher malfunction speed.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> same. wmo always felt the most raw, it was the go-to mouse in paint to see if there was mouse correction on newer mice. drawing tiny objects in paint always felt the most accurate and raw with the wmo
> 
> the wmo and 3.0 feel the most responsive, accurate, and raw than pretty much any other mouse.


I'm still wondering why you originally attacked me for saying exactly this...


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> never cared about finalmouse since they dont do ambidextrous. are they doing an ambidextrous version with 3360 with the scream version or whatever?


The scream1 uses the 'FM tournament pro' shape(Ambi, with mouse 4&5 on the left side only) & it will have the 3360.

The regular 'Finalmouse Tournament pro' will be Ambi with the 3310. The Scream1 will cost more as well.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> screamone is ergo 3360 ambi is 3360 too ^^ shape pref


^^^ incorrect


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> The scream1 uses the 'FM tournament pro' shape(Ambi, with mouse 4&5 on the left side only) & it will have the 3360.
> 
> The regular 'Finalmouse Tournament pro' will be Ambi with the 3310. The Scream1 will cost more as well.
> ^^^ incorrect


my bad i wrote really bad :S...as i know
scream1 is ergonimic with 3360
ambi is ambi xD with same sensor


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> my bad i wrote really bad :S...as i know
> scream1 is ergonimic with 3360
> ambi is ambi xD with same sensor


Ergo = 3310
Ambi (Tournament Pro) = 3310
Scream One = ambi with the 3360


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kashim*
> 
> my bad i wrote really bad :S...as i know
> scream1 is ergonimic with 3360
> ambi is ambi xD with same sensor


No problem, Scream 2 will be ergo.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> No problem, Scream 2 will be ergo.


Not just any ergo- IME ergo!


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Not just any ergo- IME ergo!


That isn't set in stone quite yet.


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> That isn't set in stone quite yet.


I think due to Scream's influence and high favour towards the IME/WMO, unless due to marketing, copyright or other issues, we should expect to see this happen,atleast something somewhat alike imho. I also think the high community favour towards the IME/WMO should also do enough impact too.

We'll atleast I hope so*fingerscrossed*


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> That isn't set in stone quite yet.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude on 1/12/16*
> 
> Absolutely. Many of these more detailed nuances come later on in the process when you begin dealing with the inner construction. For now we have the luxury of focusing on the more high level design. Meaning general shape, curves, grooves, etc...
> 
> Alot of this can actually be fleshed out without needing to touch a stp or dwg file, and *I can begin visualizing the shape through simple sketches which I hope to start with tomorrow*.
> 
> *Ill share as much as possible during this portion of the process* since it will dictate many of the fundamental shape attributes.
> 
> But in my previous post *I tried to give some idea of where these initial sketches would go*. Also I think a more abstract/general description for these initial skethces might be " 75% IE 3.0, 25% Classic ergo)
> 
> Keep in mind this is just one idea, the advantage of being in the early stages of the process means there can be many iterations.


Still waiting...


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Still waiting...


"Soon". And its Amazon's fault the FMT mice aren't ready


----------



## aayman_farzand

@FinalmouseJude is the implementation of the 3310 in the Tournament Pro any different than the one in the Classic ergo?


----------



## xxThe Remedyxx

PM'ed about firmware flasher for 2015 Finalmouse but didn't get a response...


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> @FinalmouseJude is the implementation of the 3310 in the Tournament Pro any different than the one in the Classic ergo?


He said they are keeping the same implementation they have already. That means the MCU filtering will still be present in the 3310 mice they sell and it will be set to 500Hz. If you like the delayed cursor response and an angle snapping feel you will be happy with their 3310 mice.

The MCU will be different in the 3360 mice and the filtering will not be used. Also, it will run at 1000Hz.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> "Soon". And its Amazon's fault the FMT mice aren't ready


I was referring to the sketches for the new Scream2 design. It's been almost 2 weeks since he said they would start working on the concept and a week since Scream has been back from StarLadder.


----------



## Jonagold

If they want to appear as normal bad corporation they will not give people the ability to personalize their product with firmware updater.

It is like trying to sell the same size shoes for everyone even when they have the ability to change the size to match the user..

They could just make a downloadable tool that has the default firmware included so if people have problems with modified firmware's they can always roll it back to default..

I don't believe having many similar mice only with different firmware's on sale is a good idea..

So many returns when people realize they have the wrong version. A simple switch would be good that changes smoothing on-off.

The least they can do for us "early stage testers" is to give us the ability to change the firmware.. We paid hefty for the product..


----------



## jtl999

Mionix does something similar for their mice but currently they have no 3360 offerings. I am happy with Naos 7000 though.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> the ability to personalize their product with firmware updater.


see this and following posts
http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/3000_100#post_24667259


----------



## wmoftw

gotta admit I'll take the 2x2 mousefeet over mouse customization any day. hyperglides for the fm? bruh
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I'm still wondering why you originally attacked me for saying exactly this...


what did I say?


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> see this and following posts
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/3000_100#post_24667259


Yeah, that bs.. Ripping people off money with millions of variants instead of giving possibility to change firmware. They probably made that sensor delay on purpose just to get more money..

By the way, I recently put g303 sensor inside a good shaped OEM shell. Now I have a better mouse than what FinalMouse could ever create..


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hello Jona,

Well all of the models on the horiZon after the tournament pro are going to be equipped with the 3360. This firmware we are developing in house on an stm32 mcu platform and will make sure that it obviously has no filtering of any kind. The original 3310s will be kept with the classic implementation for those that like it and are used to it.

Right now our though process is "let's get this new sensor done right and put it into as many shapes/variants as possible". And hopefully by the end of 2016 there will be 3-4 solid options to choose from the new sensor implementation on top of the 2 classic models.

As for scream two sketches and drafts I have not even started yet .

And tomorrow I'm hoping our logistics guy gives me good news regarding the tourney pros, hopefully the storm didn't affect anything, and we didn't mess anything up again .

And lastly, I understand this community here has a very strong maker/diy ethic combined with some good engineering smarts. Now that we have a firmware engineer maybe there can be some kind of development kit I could push for just for those select few that want it. I'll bring it up this week.

Thanks,
Jude


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> what did I say?


Don't remember exactly, but I remember pointing out how ironic your comments were considering your name.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> gotta admit I'll take the 2x2 mousefeet over mouse customization any day. hyperglides for the fm? bruh


I like how the Zowie mice have larger feet. That gives me the option of using IntelliMouse feet or G1/MX300 feet.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Jona,
> 
> Well all of the models on the horiZon after the tournament pro are going to be equipped with the 3360. This firmware we are developing in house on an stm32 mcu platform and will make sure that it obviously has no filtering of any kind. The original 3310s will be kept with the classic implementation for those that like it and are used to it.
> 
> Right now our though process is "let's get this new sensor done right and put it into as many shapes/variants as possible". And hopefully by the end of 2016 there will be 3-4 solid options to choose from the new sensor implementation on top of the 2 classic models.
> 
> As for scream two sketches and drafts I have not even started yet .
> 
> And tomorrow I'm hoping our logistics guy gives me good news regarding the tourney pros, hopefully the storm didn't affect anything, and we didn't mess anything up again .
> 
> And lastly, I understand this community here has a very strong maker/diy ethic combined with some good engineering smarts. Now that we have a firmware engineer maybe there can be some kind of development kit I could push for just for those select few that want it. I'll bring it up this week.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


Okay, that would give some trust back if it happens. Lets see how these new releases turns out..


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> He said they are keeping the same implementation they have already. That means the MCU filtering will still be present in the 3310 mice they sell and it will be set to 500Hz. If you like the delayed cursor response and an angle snapping feel you will be happy with their 3310 mice.
> 
> The MCU will be different in the 3360 mice and the filtering will not be used. Also, it will run at 1000Hz.
> I was referring to the sketches for the new Scream2 design. It's been almost 2 weeks since he said they would start working on the concept and a week since Scream has been back from StarLadder.


what filtering does finalmouse use on 3310?


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> And lastly, I understand this community here has a very strong maker/diy ethic combined with some good engineering smarts. Now that we have a firmware engineer maybe there can be some kind of development kit I could push for just for those select few that want it. I'll bring it up this week.












@FinalmouseJude
You can't say how much the "ScreaM One" will cost at this moment, right?
How does the RMA work, i heard it's 3 years? Do you, as the buyer have to pay for the shipment?
(Sorry if this has been asked before, can't remember all the posts)

Boy... i just hope it will feel like a WMO shape wise :/


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> what filtering does finalmouse use on 3310?


http://www.overclock.net/t/1531877/finalmouse-2015/1410_30#post_23993136


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *turnschuh*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @FinalmouseJude
> You can't say how much the "ScreaM One" will cost at this moment, right?
> How does the RMA work, i heard it's 3 years? Do you, as the buyer have to pay for the shipment?
> (Sorry if this has been asked before, can't remember all the posts)
> 
> Boy... i just hope it will feel like a WMO shape wise :/


I've already revealed the scream one price. If my memory serves me well I believe it will be 76.99? Or was it 74.99... One of those two.

Yes any manufacturer defect we cover for 3 years, shipping is covered by us.

As for the shape I'm hoping people get their hands on tourney pros this week so I can see what the community thinks.


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I've already revealed the scream one price. If my memory serves me well I believe it will be 76.99? Or was it 74.99... One of those two.
> 
> Yes any manufacturer defect we cover for 3 years, shipping is covered by us.
> 
> As for the shape I'm hoping people get their hands on tourney pros this week so I can see what the community thinks.


I live in India and I usually buy most mice I own through friends/family when they return to India as the shipping and import duty are too high otherwise (for eg an fm would cost me 100$+). Do I still get the 3 year warranty cover?


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Now that we have a firmware engineer


pics or didn't happen

seriously though i think we'd all appreciate some more transparency as to who's behind this project and who's doing what.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Jona,
> 
> Well all of the models on the horiZon after the tournament pro are going to be equipped with the 3360. This firmware we are developing in house on an stm32 mcu platform and will make sure that it obviously has no filtering of any kind. The original 3310s will be kept with the classic implementation for those that like it and are used to it.
> 
> Right now our though process is "let's get this new sensor done right and put it into as many shapes/variants as possible". And hopefully by the end of 2016 there will be 3-4 solid options to choose from the new sensor implementation on top of the 2 classic models.
> 
> As for scream two sketches and drafts I have not even started yet .
> 
> And tomorrow I'm hoping our logistics guy gives me good news regarding the tourney pros, hopefully the storm didn't affect anything, and we didn't mess anything up again .
> 
> And lastly, I understand this community here has a very strong maker/diy ethic combined with some good engineering smarts. Now that we have a firmware engineer maybe there can be some kind of development kit I could push for just for those select few that want it. I'll bring it up this week.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jude


As soon as they pop up i am planning to snatch one A$ap like Rocky.

It's between this & the Fade for me currently. Though my Ergo FM is great too.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Don't remember exactly, but I remember pointing out how ironic your comments were considering your name.


so did I say something wrong or what?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> so did I say something wrong or what?


You attacked me for saying the MLT04 is on another level compared to the vast majority of other "gaming" mice.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> You attacked me for saying the MLT04 is on another level compared to the vast majority of other "gaming" mice.


because nothing is perfect and it has flaws


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> because nothing is perfect and it has flaws


Ehh, that wasn't it because I've never claimed anything is perfect. I'm the first person to admit there are flaws with it and that those "flawless" mice lists are very misleading. It's the reason I'm on this website - to find a replacement for my 3.0. Something I've been looking for since I first used the mouse.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Ehh, that wasn't it because I've never claimed anything is perfect. I'm the first person to admit there are flaws with it and that those "flawless" mice lists are very misleading. It's the reason I'm on this website - to find a replacement for my 3.0. Something I've been looking for since I first used the mouse.


you brought it up, you should remember. can't defend myself when you have no idea what I said

this is the second time someone called me out for 'being mean' to them and when I ask what I said they don't remember and then they do and it's not even remotely close to what they originally said. some anime nerd tried it on me before. get the facts first people


----------



## TburdzZ

When is the tourney pro coming out im ready to guinea pig this and give you guys a report.


----------



## Maximillion

#Soon™


----------



## john88

Last we heard Jude from Finalmouse said jan 22-25. So should today, wouldnt be surprised if it's been delayed again.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> When is the tourney pro coming out im ready to guinea pig this and give you guys a report.


Let us know! I'm happy with mah g303 but if anything better comes out I'm all bouts it dawg


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Let us know! I'm happy with mah g303 but if anything better comes out I'm all bouts it dawg


How the g303 is so awkward in the hand, but i do aim better with it than any other mouse ive tried, hoping the scream one and ambi can change that.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> #Soon™


lol
#theproswantit™


----------



## wmoftw

buying this as soon as it's out. will compare it to ambi mice like the za13 and wmo and fk, etc. ZA shape is weird, weight distrubution feels odd and the FK shape feels much more comfortable

also if I don't like it I'm going to sell it for less. will give the next one a shot (scream version)

can the FM cable be swapped?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> can the FM cable be swapped?


Technically any cable can be swapped. Some are just more involved to do.


----------



## broodro0ster

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> He said they are keeping the same implementation they have already. That means the MCU filtering will still be present in the 3310 mice they sell and it will be set to 500Hz. If you like the delayed cursor response and an angle snapping feel you will be happy with their 3310 mice.
> 
> The MCU will be different in the 3360 mice and the filtering will not be used. Also, it will run at 1000Hz.


Is the implementation of the 3310 in the Final Mouse different from the Zowie implementation?
I'd like to buy the FK1 or the Tournament Pro, but I don't want a delayed cursor or angle snapping :/


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *broodro0ster*
> 
> Is the implementation of the 3310 in the Final Mouse different from the Zowie implementation?
> I'd like to buy the FK1 or the Tournament Pro, but I don't want a delayed cursor or angle snapping :/


Delayed cursor? You mean the added delay due to inherent smoothing? Its slightly bigger on the FM than zowie if thats the case. If you want none of that 3090 or 3366 is your way to go.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *broodro0ster*
> 
> Is the implementation of the 3310 in the Final Mouse different from the Zowie implementation?
> I'd like to buy the FK1 or the Tournament Pro, but I don't want a delayed cursor or angle snapping :/


Of course they are different.

The 3310 feels as if the sensor inherently has some degree of angle snapping like behavior. If you want something that feels less like that you will go for a 3366, MLT04 or a 3360 (possibly a 3090).

FinalMouse will offer a 3360 mouse in the future, but it will be in the form of the Scream1, which is a more expensive Tournament Pro.

Zowie mice are expensive for what they are. The Scream1 will be even more expensive and offers less features than the Zowie mice.


----------



## suneatshours86

"jan 22-25"

...delayed *again.*


----------



## Maximillion

Well, at least all you love birds know what to hint about for a valentines gift...#maybe


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The 3310 feels *mice that I've tried* feel as if the sensor inherently has some degree of angle snapping like behavior.


Fixed that for you.

You're still talking like mice are all the same as long as they have the same sensor.

The FM is completely different from other 3310 mice. Every mouse with the 3310 sensor is completely different. I don't know why you're not understanding this.

It makes your following sentence complete misinformation:
Quote:


> If you want something that feels less like that you will go for a 3366, MLT04 or a 3360 (possibly a 3090).


All the 3090 mice and 3366 mice that I've tried are nowhere near the MLT04. The FM & DA4g are by far the closest.


----------



## trism

Sigh. The difference in the feeling you get from the same sensor in different mice is objectively noticeable only when the implementation is messed up, like it is on some level in the FM (feeling the difference in the silicon die variance is r0ach level stuff unless something is messed up heavily and then it's just per unit basis). Otherwise, if the manufacturer somewhat followed the datasheet of the sensor, the differences you feel when comparing two different mice are mostly caused by the shape, the sensor position and your subjective bias. Rival and Avior, for example, do not differ at all when it comes to the SROM or the sensor startup procedure versus the FM, they just don't process the sensor's input as much as the FM does before sending it to the PC. KPM differs a bit by having an older SROM which has the infamous PMW3310 CPI bug. Maybe you just prefer the smoothed tracking in the FM over the more raw implementations, especially the PMW3366 mice? Obviously, this is subjective and not a bad thing - until you go on trying to debunk the fact that FM has more input processing and thus is less raw.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Fixed that for you.
> 
> You're still talking like mice are all the same as long as they have the same sensor.
> 
> The FM is completely different from other 3310 mice. Every mouse with the 3310 sensor is completely different. I don't know why you're not understanding this.
> 
> It makes your following sentence complete misinformation:
> All the 3090 mice and 3366 mice that I've tried are nowhere near the MLT04. The FM & DA4g are by far the closest.


The statements I have seen about various 3310 mice attest to that notion. You can see that in videos, paint drawings, user opinions, etc. Then there is the whole post processing [smoothing and filtering] that supposedly will straighten out movements.

The tracking method for the Avago/PixArt sensors isn't vastly different between models. The 3310 is going to use the same method regardless of the mouse it's in. There could be different settings used, but that won't make a 3310 behave like a MLT04. You read about it in the patents PDFs.

I think you stretch too far with this "variances make every single mouse completely incomparable to another" belief. You even say one FM shouldn't be compared to another.

It doesn't appear you can differentiate the nuances of a sensor/mouse as much as you think you can. Saying a FM is on the level of an IntelliMouse affirms this. People have explained why you are being unreasonable by showing you the information that contradicts your opinions. Yet you continue as if your ego won't allow you to accept you're human.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Sigh. The difference in the feeling you get from the same sensor in different mice is objectively noticeable only when the implementation is messed up,


This is completely false. I've tested numerous 3310 mice, and lots of other mice, and they ALL are significantly different. Even a firmware/SROM update can have major affects on the *same mouse*. This is common knowledge.

Quote:


> the differences you feel when comparing two different mice are mostly caused by the shape, the sensor position and your subjective bias.


This is 100% false, and I have proven it to be false numerous times on these forums and in my video reviews.
Quote:


> Maybe you just prefer the smoothed tracking in the FM over the more raw implementations, especially the PMW3366 mice?


No.

We've been over this many times before.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> *The statements I have seen* about various 3310 mice attest to that notion. You can see that in videos, paint drawings, user opinions, etc. Then there is the whole post processing [smoothing and filtering] that supposedly will straighten out movements.
> 
> The tracking method for the Avago/PixArt sensors isn't vastly different between models. The 3310 is going to use the same method regardless of the mouse it's in. There could be different settings used, but that won't make a 3310 behave like a MLT04. You *read about it in the patents PDFs*.


These bolded parts are a prime example of the problem. You seem to base everything off specs, without actually testing anything. That is an extremely flawed approach.

Quote:


> I think you stretch too far with this "variances make every single mouse completely incomparable to another" belief. You even say one FM shouldn't be compared to another.


I showed in my FM review that different FMs perform significantly different.
Quote:


> It doesn't appear you can differentiate the nuances of a sensor/mouse as much as you think you can.


What are you basing this on? This is such an absurd comment considering you haven't even done any testing yourself.......................

Quote:


> Saying a FM is on the level of an IntelliMouse affirms this.


Please read more carefully. I said the FM and DA4g are the *CLOSEST* to the MLT04. I did not say they were on the same level.
Quote:


> People have explained why you are being unreasonable by showing you the information that contradicts your opinions. Yet you continue as if your ego won't allow you to accept you're human.


Please elaborate on this. I do not know what you're referring to. As far as I can tell this comment seems show that you've completely missed or misunderstood previous debates.

*God, I really feel like almost no one on these forums actually comprehends even 10% of the discussion that occurs.......*


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> *God, I really feel like almost no one on these forums actually comprehends even 10% of the discussion that occurs.......*


Well some people read with their eyes shut and assume things in a weird way.

May I ask you what in the FM strived for it to be in the same spectrum as a DA4g and to be in a remote way close to a MLT04?

What about DA3.5g or DA3g?


----------



## a_ak57

Well, you're free to leave and spread the Objective Truth of your feelings somewhere where there are beings on your intellectual level.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This is completely false. I've tested numerous 3310 mice, and lots of other mice, and they ALL are significantly different. Even a firmware/SROM update can have major affects on the *same mouse*. This is common knowledge.
> This is 100% false, and I have proven it to be false numerous times on these forums and in my video reviews.
> No.
> 
> We've been over this many times before.
> These bolded parts are a prime example of the problem. You seem to base everything off specs, without actually testing anything. That is an extremely flawed approach.
> I showed in my FM review that different FMs perform significantly different.
> 
> What are you basing this on? This is such an absurd comment considering you haven't even done any testing yourself.......................
> 
> Please read more carefully. I said the FM and DA4g are the *CLOSEST* to the MLT04. I did not say they were on the same level.
> Please elaborate on this. I do not know what you're referring to. As far as I can tell this comment seems show that you've completely missed or misunderstood previous debates.
> 
> *God, I really feel like almost no one on these forums actually comprehends even 10% of the discussion that occurs.......*


Rather it appears to be that you only understand 10% of the conversations on this forum. Whether that's because you don't read everything or you refuse to believe what you read.

My comments are based off datasheets, patent papers, forum posts, videos, tests and personal experience. I won't buy every mouse to subjectively "test" them with the intent of spreading my opinion as gospel.

Could it be your opinion about the Kone Military feeling better than the FK1 was purely down to the CPI bug? That you got fooled by the difference in CPI? I have seen that before (I think it was the great one [r0ach]).

The amount of post processing the FM has and your opinion about the FM leads me to think you can't differentiate between sensors/mice like you think you can. You didn't notice it in the FM, Avior 7000 or the DA 4G. Nor do you notice the behavior of the MLT04 that I stated earlier.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This is completely false. I've tested numerous 3310 mice, and lots of other mice, and they ALL are significantly different. Even a firmware/SROM update can have major affects on the *same mouse*. This is common knowledge.


Yes, they are when it comes to the shape and other physical factors. No when it comes to anything related to electronics per se when talking about the same sensor. Firmware/SROM update obviously can have a huge effect, that is why I said "when the implementation is messed up". MCU doesn't make a difference in the tracking feeling unless it's not working like it should - this would be seen in odd mousetester behavior.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> This is 100% false, and I have proven it to be false numerous times on these forums and in my video reviews.


I've yet to see any tests where you do ABX blind testing. Assuming the mouse works fine, how have you proven it?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No.
> 
> We've been over this many times before.


No? That's what the mouse feels like and you prefer it over the mice that do not feel like it (PMW3366). Facts back this up.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> *God, I really feel like almost no one on these forums actually comprehends even 10% of the discussion that occurs.......*


Pretty sure that applies to you much more than to anyone else in here. You have *no facts* about anything and are just assuming and going by feel which is _incredibly_ susceptible to subjective bias and placebo. You clearly do not seem to notice small imperfections in mice sensors if you don't notice the smoothing in the FM/PMW3310 (which most of us probably don't feel). I am not saying your subjective opinion is wrong, by all means prefer the sensors you do. However, using words like "raw" "best" "most accurate" etc. is nonsense when it's factually proven it's not the case.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zekron*
> 
> Well some people read with their eyes shut and assume things in a weird way.
> 
> May I ask you what in the FM strived for it to be in the same spectrum as a DA4g and to be in a remote way close to a MLT04?
> 
> What about DA3.5g or DA3g?


Check the FM and DA reviews: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I won't buy every mouse to subjectively "test" them with the intent of spreading my opinion as gospel.


Jesus christ man, you're already doing that without even testing the mice for yourself. You constantly state as fact misinformation based off the fact that you haven't even tested the mice you're talking about.

Quote:


> Could it be your opinion about the Kone Military feeling better than the FK1 was purely down to the CPI bug? That you got fooled by the difference in CPI?


From what I remember, I never came across that bug because I think it required you to install the drivers, which I don't do. And the majority of people in the KPM thread were in agreement with me regarding the sensor performance.
Quote:


> The amount of post processing the FM has and your opinion about the FM leads me to think you can't differentiate between sensors/mice like you think you can. You didn't notice it in the FM, Avior 7000 or the DA 4G. Nor do you notice the behavior of the MLT04 that I stated earlier.


Ok, this is just a boatload of misinformation and is a perfect example of what I just said about people not comprehending anything that's discussed on these forums.

These have been addressed tens of times. Clearly it's a waste of time.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> "when the implementation is messed up"


That's a useless statement to make then. Because in that case virtually every implementation is "messed up".
Quote:


> this would be seen in odd mousetester behavior.


I have shown odd/unique mousetester behavior in a variety of mice, and used that behavior to support my conclusions.
Quote:


> I've yet to see any tests where you do ABX blind testing.


That's more or less a ridiculously high bar to set. No one has the means to do that. But I'm more than willing if I'm given the tools.
Quote:


> Assuming the mouse works fine, how have you proven it?


Mouse tester graphs. Check my most recent reviews: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd
Quote:


> No? That's what the mouse feels like and you prefer it over the mice that do not feel like it (PMW3366). Facts back this up.


No. We JUST got done discussing this YET AGAIN. Please go back and read the last few pages in this thread that you seem to have missed.
Quote:


> Pretty sure that applies to you much more than to anyone else in here. You have *no facts* about anything and are just assuming and going by feel which is _incredibly_ susceptible to subjective bias and placebo. You clearly do not seem to notice small imperfections in mice sensors if you don't notice the smoothing in the FM/PMW3310 (which most of us probably don't feel). I am not saying your subjective opinion is wrong, by all means prefer the sensors you do. However, using words like "raw" "best" "most accurate" etc. is nonsense when it's factually proven it's not the case.


Blah blah blah. I've taken the time to prove these same accusations wrong over and over. Clearly there are a lot of people on here who have *horrible* reading comprehension and thus taking the time to explain and discuss things on here is a complete waste of time.


----------



## wareya

>From what I remember, I never came across that bug because I think it required you to install the drivers, which I don't do.

Wrong. The CPI bug is there when you /don't/ install the drivers. You have to install the drivers and enable liftoff calibration to avoid the bug. You also need to install the drivers to update firmware and get low button latency, which absolutely affects the subjective feel of spray control and twitching. After this the only things left the FM did well that the KPM didn't were the shape and weight.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> From what I remember, I never came across that bug because I think it required you to install the drivers, which I don't do. And the majority of people in the KPM thread were in agreement with me regarding the sensor performance.


No, you can sort of fix it with the drivers by using the DCU. By default, the DCU is toggled off and the mouse has the bug. The only true way to fix it is to do what I did: switch to the newer version of the SROM by flashing it manually in the nor flash.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That's a useless statement to make then. Because in that case virtually every implementation is "messed up".


It's not an useless statement to make. You literally have to code something wrong to get the firmware to cause differences. You can't claim all implementations are "messed up" just because you subjectively feel that something is off. I could take the same approach and claim that your head is "messed up". However, there are some implementations that are messed up like the Aurora's, FM's and the CM Xornet v2's.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> I have shown odd/unique mousetester behavior in a variety of mice, and used that behavior to support my conclusions.


I've only seen you claiming that mice which have xCounts deviating from the averaged line are bad, which obviously is not the case.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> That's more or less a ridiculously high bar to set. No one has the means to do that. But I'm more than willing if I'm given the tools.


That's the only way to prove anything. Right now, the person saying Zowies tracking feeling is the most raw and best non-smoothed input there is is as right as you are.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> No. We JUST got done discussing this YET AGAIN. Please go back and read the last few pages in this thread that you seem to have missed.


Oh I read it, but that's how it is. You stated many times there that FM feels "more connected" and "raw" when it isn't. It can subjectively feel so for you. I don't have any problems if you start using "in my opinion" instead of claiming that your subjective findings are facts or somehow hold more value than those of others.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> Blah blah blah. I've taken the time to prove these same accusations wrong over and over. Clearly there are a lot of people on here who have *horrible* reading comprehension and thus taking the time to explain and discuss things on here is a complete waste of time.


What exactly have you proven? That your subjective opinion is somehow more right than the actual facts we have and the opinions of others are wrong? You're a human, you have a bias. You do experience placebo whether you accept it or not, and the shape and other physical factors play a huge role in the overall feeling.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> You literally have to code something wrong to get the firmware to cause differences. You can't claim all implementations are "messed up" just because you subjectively feel that something is off. I could take the same approach and claim that your head is "messed up". However, there are some implementations that are messed up like the Aurora's, FM's and the CM Xornet v2's.


Wasn't the FM's firmware fixed with the summer edition? Or are we talking about another problem?


----------



## trism

Well, I called it messed up because it is processing the input without a real need for it and is locked to 500 Hz. The summer edition fixed the CPI bug by updating to the newer version of the SROM.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Well, I called it messed up because it is processing the input without a real need for it and is locked to 500 Hz. The summer edition fixed the CPI bug by updating to the newer version of the SROM.


Ah alright, so you're talking about the smoothing regardless of DPI step, yeah I could see why you consider it messed up then.


----------



## TburdzZ

Tbh I wish they would make the pro customs shop available to us and make the 3090 a sensor option as I feel its the most comfortable to use because it feels raw, the 3310 feels like a 3090 bloated with firmware that makes movements feel "fake" for lack of better words. The 3360 is good but feels unsteady or at least in the g303s implementation, honestly the zowie am and its 3090 has been my go to forever despite me trying endless amounts of mice.

As far as switches go I really like the huanos in the zowie am they are crisp and just feel great to me except for the delay.

Scroll wheel final mouse scrollwheel is perfect its just great in my opinion.

Buttons this has got to go to the g303 for the clicks and the zowie am for shape, the g303 side button clicks are so crisp and great but the shape sucks. The zowie am button shape works well for me. The fm buttons are down right LAUGHABLE and i refuse to buy the ergo 2016 or even use my origional ergo or the 2015 model simple because the buttons feel so awkward.

I have high hopes for the scream one and i have high hopes for the shape of the ambi.

The only problem is that we wont be getting them till xmass 2016









Sorry for my bad grammer dont have lots of time to correct.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Well Japan has got www.zeecrear.com

However, his price are very high(even without overseas shipping) and his "customizations" are very limited(ie no sensor changes).

It's pretty clear though that it's a side job of his, so I find his limitations understandable.


----------



## falcon26

Is the final mouse 2016 considered a big mouse? How does it compare to the Rival 100 or 300?


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> Is the final mouse 2016 considered a big mouse? How does it compare to the Rival 100 or 300?


Have never felt rival 100 but fm vs 300 the fm feels tiny.


----------



## falcon26

Does the final mouse 2016 have a lot of glossy parts or is it mostly matte?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> Does the final mouse 2016 have a lot of glossy parts or is it mostly matte?


Mostly matte, right side is the glossy side.


----------



## falcon26

I'll probably wait for the tournament pro edition


----------



## falcon26

Also the LED lighting is white correct?


----------



## DadeBound

Yea, the lighting is white with no change. In some pictures it looks like a shade of blue but it is not.


----------



## falcon26

Yeah that is what I was wondering. From some screen shots it looks blue not white.


----------



## Eutheran

Does the led still stay on 24/7 on the fm2016?


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eutheran*
> 
> Does the led still stay on 24/7 on the fm2016?


Indeed, even when your computer is off.


----------



## falcon26

What? Are you serious? Why the hell would they do that?


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> What? Are you serious? Why the hell would they do that?


this only happens with certain charging usb ports. Normal usb ports don't do this


----------



## popups

Is the Scream1 going to have a LED logo?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> Yeah that is what I was wondering. From some screen shots it looks blue not white.


LEDs look bluish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#White_LEDs_and_the_Illumination_breakthrough


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> *I have shown odd/unique mousetester behavior in a variety of mice, and used that behavior to support my conclusions.*


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Just tested:
> 
> Does not track on the glossy box
> Does track on white paper
> Does track on Puretrak Talent, and very good at that too, see below:


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'll label them in the review, but you can kind of tell by how many times you see updates.
> The 500 Hz screen is below
> 
> http://imgur.com/6B3gntO


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Like this?


Hmmm...


----------



## qsxcv

there once was a time when i cared enough to argue in these discussions, but i've came to the conclusion that some cannot comprehend the fact that there are others with differing opinions. and the same people selectively focus on the "data" that support their opinions, while ignoring or discrediting the data which do not.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> there once was a time when i cared enough to argue in these discussions, but i've came to the conclusion that some cannot comprehend the fact that there are others with differing opinions. and the same people selectively focus on the "data" that support their opinions, while ignoring or discrediting the data which do not.


----------



## Jonagold

In my opinion delay is always bad on mice, both buttons and sensor. Only reason for players to prefer mice with delay is because of being used to something and having developed a muscle memory to create a synchronization between muscle movements and eye for specific values in delay..

Smoothing is something that can be controversial when done with small enough delay. Some people may have difficulties to create smooth movements with their hand therefore smoothing could be a way for them to have a decent in-game movements with flawed in real life control.

Reason to prefer less smoothing is to have more accurate control over the cursor while having accurate movements in real life.. Usually made possible with low enough mouse sensitivity.

Being used to something plays a huge part at the smoothing controversy as well..


----------



## jtl999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> this only happens with certain charging usb ports. Normal usb ports don't do this


Because I read the LED is hardwired to the USB power line and not MCU.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> In my opinion delay is always bad on mice, both buttons and sensor. Only reason for players to prefer mice with delay is because of being used to something and having developed a muscle memory to create a synchronization between muscle movements and eye for specific values in delay..
> 
> Smoothing is something that can be controversial when done with small enough delay. Some people may have difficulties to create smooth movements with their hand therefore smoothing could be a way for them to have a decent in-game movements with flawed in real life control.
> 
> Reason to prefer less smoothing is to have more accurate control over the cursor while having accurate movements in real life.. Usually made possible with low enough mouse sensitivity.
> 
> Being used to something plays a huge part at the smoothing controversy as well..


When there is something that doesn't respond like my brain thinks it should I cannot focus. Every time that thing occurs while playing I lose my concentration. I have to condition myself to ignore it.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> In my opinion delay is always bad on mice, both buttons and sensor. Only reason for players to prefer mice with delay is because of being used to something and having developed a muscle memory to create a synchronization between muscle movements and eye for specific values in delay..
> 
> Smoothing is something that can be controversial when done with small enough delay. Some people may have difficulties to create smooth movements with their hand therefore smoothing could be a way for them to have a decent in-game movements with flawed in real life control.
> 
> Reason to prefer less smoothing is to have more accurate control over the cursor while having accurate movements in real life.. Usually made possible with low enough mouse sensitivity.
> 
> Being used to something plays a huge part at the smoothing controversy as well..
> 
> 
> 
> When there is something that doesn't respond like my brain thinks it should I cannot focus. Every time that thing occurs while playing I lose my concentration. I have to condition myself to ignore it.
Click to expand...

Me but I come to a screeching halt. I'm either OCD/autistic or "too good at detecting minuscle differences for my own good"


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> Because I read the LED is hardwired to the USB power line and not MCU.


I don't know about all that because I haven't opened my fm yet but I can tell you from using it with 4 different computers and a usb powered hub that the gigabyte implementation of the charger port will always keep the mouse led on. Same with the powered usb hub I used. For reasons unknown to me the asus charger port only seemed to keep the mouse on 50% of the time. In a regular usb 2.0 port the mouse never stayed on after a shutdown in any of the computers. I wasn't testing the led specifically so a wasn't watching to see if usb 3.0 made a difference but I don't think it does


----------



## raiikd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> Because I read the LED is hardwired to the USB power line and not MCU.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about all that because I haven't opened my fm yet but I can tell you from using it with 4 different computers and a usb powered hub that the gigabyte implementation of the charger port will always keep the mouse led on. Same with the powered usb hub I used. For reasons unknown to me the asus charger port only seemed to keep the mouse on 50% of the time. In a regular usb 2.0 port the mouse never stayed on after a shutdown in any of the computers. I wasn't testing the led specifically so a wasn't watching to see if usb 3.0 made a difference but I don't think it does
Click to expand...

I use it on my Asus Maximus VII Hero USB 2.0 port and it stays on all the time. Also Jude said the led is hardwired to be USB powered when I asked the question.


----------



## Buttnose

FM2015 buyers still getting screwed months later with no 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch and no replacement mousefeet. Finalmouse listening to community feedback?


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raiikd*
> 
> I use it on my Asus Maximus VII Hero USB 2.0 port and it stays on all the time. Also Jude said the led is hardwired to be USB powered when I asked the question.


I don't have a maximus VII hero to test with but I would guess it either has to do with the keybot port or with the ai software. You should be able to disable the charger+ function. Hopefully the scream 1 does not have this problem because I would be pissed if my fm led stayed on all the time.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buttnose*
> 
> FM2015 buyers still getting screwed months later with no 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch and no replacement mousefeet. Finalmouse listening to community feedback?


1000hz is not a necessary need for a gaming mouse, 500hz is more then enough. As for the replacement mouse feet, that is something that does need to be addressed imo, but that's something that can be done later down the line, I've had mine for 8 months and they're not showing any signs of wear and tear as of yet.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raiikd*
> 
> I use it on my Asus Maximus VII Hero USB 2.0 port and it stays on all the time. Also Jude said the led is hardwired to be USB powered when I asked the question.


There's also an option in most BIOS to turn this off if it really bothers you that much. This behavior is actually pretty common in many other peripherals with led lighting.


----------



## raiikd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *raiikd*
> 
> I use it on my Asus Maximus VII Hero USB 2.0 port and it stays on all the time. Also Jude said the led is hardwired to be USB powered when I asked the question.
> 
> 
> 
> There's also an option in most BIOS to turn this off if it really bothers you that much. This behavior is actually pretty common in many other peripherals with led lighting.
Click to expand...

Never had it with steelseries rival or deathadder that's why I asked.


----------



## raiikd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raiikd*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *raiikd*
> 
> I use it on my Asus Maximus VII Hero USB 2.0 port and it stays on all the time. Also Jude said the led is hardwired to be USB powered when I asked the question.
> 
> 
> 
> There's also an option in most BIOS to turn this off if it really bothers you that much. This behavior is actually pretty common in many other peripherals with led lighting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never had it with steelseries rival, logitech g303 or deathadder that's why I asked.
Click to expand...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Indeed, even when your computer is off.


Lmao they're forcing an LED that cant be turned off? not wasting my money on that overpriced mouse then


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> Lmao they're forcing an LED that cant be turned off? not wasting my money on that overpriced mouse then


that's not exactly right but sure if you don't like it then don't buy it.


----------



## falcon26

I was thinking about getting it. But if that LED is always on, forget that. That has to be one of the lamest things I have ever heard of. Why on earth would they do that....


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> I was thinking about getting it. But if that LED is always on, forget that. That has to be one of the lamest things I have ever heard of. Why on earth would they do that....


Most motherboards have a bios power setting to toggle that will make the mouse LED turn off when the pc is off. On Gigabyte boards for example it's called ErP. For MSI motherboards I think the setting is called EuP.


----------



## falcon26

I have never owed a mouse that had an LED on it that didn't turn off when you turned your PC off. Having this one the Final Mouse would be a first...


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> I have never owed a mouse that had an LED on it that didn't turn off when you turned your PC off. Having this one the Final Mouse would be a first...


I have had multiple mice do this in the past. I know the Abyssus was one of them.


----------



## TburdzZ

Can jude please step in and give us some info on when tourney pro is coming out if we go 2 more days without any word im buying an fk 2.


----------



## john88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> Can jude please step in and give us some info on when tourney pro is coming out if we go 2 more days without any word im buying an fk 2.


I was just considering buying another Rival 300 after work today haha, I too am losing my patience. I'll wait until Friday like you









Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> I have had multiple mice do this in the past. I know the Abyssus was one of them.


yea on my old computer my abyssus led didnt stay on when the power was off, but on my new computer the blue led stays on. any idea how to get rid of it? z97 fatal1ty killer motherboard


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> yea on my old computer my abyssus led didnt stay on when the power was off, but on my new computer the blue led stays on. any idea how to get rid of it? z97 fatal1ty killer motherboard


Much OT but whatevs. BIOS settings, take the power off the USB ports after turning off the machine. Also do the same in Windows's energy management stuff.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> yea on my old computer my abyssus led didnt stay on when the power was off, but on my new computer the blue led stays on. any idea how to get rid of it? z97 fatal1ty killer motherboard


In your bios Advanced --> Chipset Configuration --> Deep Sleep.

Try turning that on. I'm pretty sure that's the correct setting. Maybe check 'good night LED' on the same page if deep sleep doesn't do it for you.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> Can jude please step in and give us some info on when tourney pro is coming out if we go 2 more days without any word im buying an fk 2.


have some patience, its going to be here sooner than later obviously and i wouldnt get an fk2 over this.
ive been spamming f5 on the amazon page for the last two weeks too, soon my friend, soon.


----------



## coldc0ffee

Might as well wait for the same shape with 3360. If that's even still coming


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> have some patience, its going to be here sooner than later obviously and i wouldnt get an fk2 over this.
> ive been spamming f5 on the amazon page for the last two weeks too, soon my friend, soon.


Why so anxious? There are plenty of 3310 mice with great grips.

I was waiting for it because initially I thought the S1 would release at the same time. That's confirmed to be delayed and I got myself a ZA13 without a second thought. I might get a second mouse because these Huanos are...terrible, but I sure as hell won't wait for a regular Tournament Pro.


----------



## Maximillion

I don't think anyone here is particularly hyped for the "Tournament Pro" sensor implementation, especially at this point in the game. Most just want to get their hands on the shape. Even if the Scream One didn't exist this would be the case. But, since they employ the same shell it's that much more intriguing to "preview".


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> I was waiting for it because initially I thought the S1 would release at the same time. That's confirmed to be delayed and I got myself a ZA13 without a second thought. I might get a second mouse because these Huanos are...terrible, but I sure as hell won't wait for a regular Tournament Pro.


Definitely not terrible. Terrible would be mushy, double clicking, low return force Omrons.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Crisp and light is best imo


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Definitely not terrible. Terrible would be mushy, double clicking, low return force Omrons.


I'm accustomed to the G303 clicks, compared to that I felt like this is a severe downgrade. I tried other mice in-between my G303 usage period, and they were inferior to the 303 but not that bad.

The clicks on the ZA13, or at least my one, are very loud and quite hard to spam. I'm not bothered by the latency, but the overall feel is not pleasing.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> There are plenty of 3310 mice with great grips.


currently there are no ambidextrous shaped 3310 mice with great grips *imo* (i own most of them) and a weight that matches the finalmouse. i must have a mouse thats 80grams or less, *i must*. nothing worse then playing starcraft and trying to push around a big heavy mouse like a death adder or something.

currently using a sensei raw just because the shape will be somewhat close to the tournament pro.

im really just getting the tournament pro for the low weight (hopefully good side buttons this time), thats about it. i own a finalmouse summer edition which is nice and light but i hate the side buttons and im not crazy about the shape.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I could take the same approach and claim that your head is "messed up". However, there are some implementations that are messed up like the Aurora's, FM's and the CM Xornet v2's.


This discussion was laid to rest a long time ago. Claims like yours have likely been helping to fuel the horrible era of new "gaming" mice all being worse than 10+ year old mice (MLT04) via disseminating the completely false and ridiculous notion that "_all gaming mice are more or less good/equal, and any differences people feel are placebo, and it's the responsibility of end users to prove this wrong via technology that doesn't exist yet_". People making these kinds of claims were proven wrong a long time ago. Here it is again for the 20th time:

* Here I test two virtually identical mice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCj6plbNuuE&index=1&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - Obvious differences in tracking are shown with mousetester graphs.
* Here I test 3 different FMs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&index=2&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - The problems felt ingame are proven via mousetester xVelocity graphs.

People like you used to attack people like me when we would claim the MLT04 is a tier above virtually every other gaming mouse. Now there is virtually unanimous agreement on this among people who have tested it themselves. Thankfully we now have mousetester which while not comprehensive, still does give us at least enough proof to shut down claims like yours.

Furthermore, I would like to know on what you are basing your claim of "implementations that are messed up like the Aurora's, FM's and the CM Xornet v2's". Because this statement by you seems very similar to what you're attacking me for.
Quote:


> I've only seen you claiming that mice which have xCounts deviating from the averaged line are bad, which obviously is not the case.


You remember wrong because I almost never use xCounts. I use xVelocity. And in my reviews there is a strong correlation between tighter xVelocity graphs and better sensor performance.
Quote:


> That's the only way to prove anything. Right now, the person saying Zowies tracking feeling is the most raw and best non-smoothed input there is is as right as you are.


1. No one says that about the zowie mice. Some people think they are "fine/good", "as good as other mice", etc.. But I have never once heard a claim similar to the ones you hear about the FM and MLT04 that they are "a league above all else", coming from people who have tested all of the mice. Most (not all) people who praise mice with poor sensor performance either never used an MLT04/FM, or there is something wrong/unoptimized with their computer setup, or are not testing the mice properly.
2. I *have* used mousetester evidence to back up my claims. So your accusations are based off ignorance.
Quote:


> Oh I read it, but that's how it is. You stated many times there that FM feels "more connected" and "raw" when it isn't. It can subjectively feel so for you. I don't have any problems if you start using "in my opinion" instead of claiming that your subjective findings are facts or somehow hold more value than those of others.


When there is such high level of concurrence about ingame sensor performance claims I've made (MLT04, FM, KPM, etc.), and when I've proved many of my claims with mousetester graphs, and when we see such high levels of incompetence & lack of expertise in many people who are giving feedback, yes I would definitely say my claims hold *much* more weight than average.
Quote:


> What exactly have you proven? That your subjective opinion is somehow more right than the actual facts we have and the opinions of others are wrong?


I have proven those claims wrong in the past, both in my reviews (which I linked above), and in forum posts which I again summarize at the bottom of this comment. "Actual facts" as in MCU smoothing? I address that yet again at the bottom of this comment.
Quote:


> You're a human, you have a bias. You do experience placebo whether you accept it or not, and the shape and other physical factors play a huge role in the overall feeling.


For those first two claims - I've never claimed otherwise. For that last one, I've proven it wrong already - see my reviews.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> Wasn't the FM's firmware fixed with the summer edition? Or are we talking about another problem?


The FM has a tracking problem that is separate from the DPI issue that the firmware fixed, and this tracking problem may or may not be related to the MCU filtering delay.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> In my opinion delay is always bad on mice, both buttons and sensor. Only reason for players to prefer mice with delay is because of being used to something and having developed a muscle memory to create a synchronization between muscle movements and eye for specific values in delay..
> 
> Smoothing is something that can be controversial when done with small enough delay. Some people may have difficulties to create smooth movements with their hand therefore smoothing could be a way for them to have a decent in-game movements with flawed in real life control.
> 
> Reason to prefer less smoothing is to have more accurate control over the cursor while having accurate movements in real life.. Usually made possible with low enough mouse sensitivity.
> 
> Being used to something plays a huge part at the smoothing controversy as well..


This does not accurately summarize the discussion.

The reason is that there are people who are either not comprehending the discussion, or being purposely deceitful.

*SUMMARY OF DISCUSSION*:

* The FM has an MCU delay which people are referring to as "smoothing"
* There are other mice which do not have this MCU delay.
* The MLT04 mice do NOT have the delay.
* The performance of the FM (delay) sensor feels closer to the MLT04 (no delay) than do *other mice which do not have the delay* that the FM has.
* We still do not know how this MCU delay affects the tracking because we've never been able to turn it on and off in the same mouse.

Therefore we make the following conclusions:

It is not logical to say people who like the FM and MLT04 tracking like "smoothing", or to frame the debate as "if you like the FM you like smoothing". Because certain mice that *do not* have the delay still feel worse than other mice that *both have and do not have* the delay. So clearly the delay is not as impactful as some people are trying to make it out to be. And it's certainly not the main factor that is setting mice apart from each other.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> * The performance of the FM (delay) sensor feels closer to the MLT04 (no delay) than do *other mice which do not have the delay* that the FM has.
> * We still do not know how this MCU delay affects the tracking because we've never been able to turn it on and off in the same mouse.
> 
> Therefore we make the following conclusions:
> 
> It is not logical to say people who like the FM and MLT04 tracking like "smoothing", or to frame the debate as "if you like the FM you like smoothing". Because certain mice that *do not* have the delay still feel worse than other mice that *both have and do not have* the delay. So clearly the delay is not as impactful as some people are trying to make it out to be. And it's certainly not the main factor that is setting mice apart from each other.


You're still confusing the ideas of fact and opinion, which makes meaningful discussion impossible. You are not perfect so please stop acting like your own personal thoughts/experiences are 100% verified truth. And you're still implying everyone else is using the term smoothing incorrectly when it's really just you.


----------



## Jonagold

"This does not accurately summarize the discussion."

I did not intend to summarize anything, it was rather my own input to the discussion. The purpose of this input was to show how simple it actually is. All these talking about feeling is waste of time when actual reasons behind feelings are always something concrete, like delay or smoothing. When having no sensor delay and minimal smoothing every accurate sensor feels the same unless other flaws like acceleration or malfunction are involved. There is no need to talk about feelings. Just wrap your head around and figure out what causes those feelings, then we can get somewhere..

When sensor is perfected with certain aspects, only reason to go back to flawed mice is the muscle memory -factor that can be re-adjusted with undefined amount of practice..
When involving feelings in that kind of decision you always tend to go back to that familiar mouse that you have synchronized yourself for, even when the perfected mouse offers higher max performance after the practice which on the other hand might not always be worthwhile depending on the situation..

Shape is something that you can make decisions depending how you feel about it because you literally feel the mouse in your hand and being able to grip comfortably is of course important..
Shape can also be something that can affect to your muscle memory and even comfortable grip can require re-adjusting if previous grip were just different..

Just don't bring feelings in the discussion about science of sensor performance, when the question is how to improve rather than stay flawed because of individual person having different muscle memory..

About the FinalMouse 2015, we have already discussed it through here in previous comments. Having MCU smoothing that causes horrible inconsistent delay as high as 7ms in worst cases.. Other than that the mouse is good, shape is good for some people bad for others.. Minor flaws mentioned here in previous comments but nothing else that I couldn't live with..

Some people are more sensitive for that delay because of wide variance in eye-brain delay, while it is 13ms for some, other might have 80ms delay there.. Possibly can get used to the delay but always hindering more or less..


----------



## SmashTV

Residential flat earther still provides nothing substantial.

Points to own bad reviews as "evidence".

Uses a mind numbingly naive person to claim other mice have excessive input processing and FM doesn't, holding this opinion over debated combed over input data from mouse tester.

Makes case for tight velocity graphs equating to good sensor performance. Backtracked on it minutes later.

Its getting to WBC levels of denial.


----------



## qsxcv

so what's the claim here?
to me it seems something like
>i think 2 identical mice feel different. hey look their mousetester graphs look qualitatively different. wow my feelings are 100% accurate and free from all bias. whatever i say has to be true. don't believe me? mousetester graphs prove i'm right.


----------



## TburdzZ

Just out of curiosity have we ever been given a good reason why the fm is 500 hz.


----------



## Nixtix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> Just out of curiosity have we ever been given a good reason why the fm is 500 hz.


They said at some point that because pros play on various lans with various types of hardware, that 500hz would have less of chance of putting strain on the PC's as compared to 1000 HZ.....


----------



## bruzanHD

MaxK, just curious if you are currently using the IE 3.0 or the FM?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Snip!
> 
> 
> 
> This discussion was laid to rest a long time ago. Claims like yours have likely been helping to fuel the horrible era of new "gaming" mice all being worse than 10+ year old mice (MLT04) via disseminating the completely false and ridiculous notion that "_all gaming mice are more or less good/equal, and any differences people feel are placebo, and it's the responsibility of end users to prove this wrong via technology that doesn't exist yet_". People making these kinds of claims were proven wrong a long time ago. Here it is again for the 20th time:
> 
> * Here I test two virtually identical mice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCj6plbNuuE&index=1&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - Obvious differences in tracking are shown with mousetester graphs.
> * Here I test 3 different FMs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&index=2&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - The problems felt ingame are proven via mousetester xVelocity graphs.
> 
> People like you used to attack people like me when we would claim the MLT04 is a tier above virtually every other gaming mouse. Now there is virtually unanimous agreement on this among people who have tested it themselves. Thankfully we now have mousetester which while not comprehensive, still does give us at least enough proof to shut down claims like yours.
> 
> Furthermore, I would like to know on what you are basing your claim of "implementations that are messed up like the Aurora's, FM's and the CM Xornet v2's". Because this statement by you seems very similar to what you're attacking me for.
> You remember wrong because I almost never use xCounts. I use xVelocity. And in my reviews there is a strong correlation between tighter xVelocity graphs and better sensor performance.
> 1. No one says that about the zowie mice. Some people think they are "fine/good", "as good as other mice", etc.. But I have never once heard a claim similar to the ones you hear about the FM and MLT04 that they are "a league above all else", coming from people who have tested all of the mice. Most (not all) people who praise mice with poor sensor performance either never used an MLT04/FM, or there is something wrong/unoptimized with their computer setup, or are not testing the mice properly.
> 2. I *have* used mousetester evidence to back up my claims. So your accusations are based off ignorance.
> When there is such high level of concurrence about ingame sensor performance claims I've made (MLT04, FM, KPM, etc.), and when I've proved many of my claims with mousetester graphs, and when we see such high levels of incompetence & lack of expertise in many people who are giving feedback, yes I would definitely say my claims hold *much* more weight than average.
> I have proven those claims wrong in the past, both in my reviews (which I linked above), and in forum posts which I again summarize at the bottom of this comment. "Actual facts" as in MCU smoothing? I address that yet again at the bottom of this comment.
> For those first two claims - I've never claimed otherwise. For that last one, I've proven it wrong already - see my reviews.
> The FM has a tracking problem that is separate from the DPI issue that the firmware fixed, and this tracking problem may or may not be related to the MCU filtering delay.
> This does not accurately summarize the discussion.
> 
> The reason is that there are people who are either not comprehending the discussion, or being purposely deceitful.
> 
> *SUMMARY OF DISCUSSION*:
> 
> * The FM has an MCU delay which people are referring to as "smoothing"
> * There are other mice which do not have this MCU delay.
> * The MLT04 mice do NOT have the delay.
> * The performance of the FM (delay) sensor feels closer to the MLT04 (no delay) than do *other mice which do not have the delay* that the FM has.
> * We still do not know how this MCU delay affects the tracking because we've never been able to turn it on and off in the same mouse.
> 
> Therefore we make the following conclusions:
> 
> It is not logical to say people who like the FM and MLT04 tracking like "smoothing", or to frame the debate as "if you like the FM you like smoothing". Because certain mice that *do not* have the delay still feel worse than other mice that *both have and do not have* the delay. So clearly the delay is not as impactful as some people are trying to make it out to be. And it's certainly not the main factor that is setting mice apart from each other.


http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/2695122/

http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/2695123/


----------



## MaximilianKohler

The only way your replies make sense at this point is if people on here have agendas to push or have the reading comprehension and logic capabilities of a 3 year old. Either way it's clearly a waste of time to discuss anything with such people.

Just know that if any of you are actually legitimately on here to find a good gaming mouse you're screwing over yourself and everyone else looking for the same thing.

It's a shame that at the very least I still won't get an apology and admittance that I was right all along when the tools finally come out that prove it beyond a doubt, or when you get your MCU fix and it doesn't do anything like what you think it will _(oh wait I forgot, it won't affect you the least bit because you completely ignore ingame testing. So you'll see the MCU delay is gone and all of a sudden it will be the best mouse ever since you can't measure any MCU delay anymore. LMAO. Bunch of idiots)_, just like what happened with the MLT04 debate.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> MaxK, just curious if you are currently using the IE 3.0 or the FM?


3.0


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaximilianKohler*
> 
> It's a shame that at the very least I still won't get an apology and admittance that I was right all along when the tools finally come out that prove it beyond a doubt, or when you get your MCU fix and it doesn't do anything like what you think it will _(oh wait I forgot, it won't affect you the least bit because you completely ignore ingame testing. So you'll see the MCU delay is gone and all of a sudden it will be the best mouse ever since you can't measure any MCU delay anymore. LMAO. Bunch of idiots)_, just like what happened with the MLT04 debate.


Everybody does in-game testing, because, you know, that's what you use gaming mice for. And countless of mice recently have been completely fine for me in terms of sensor performance. The difference is marginal and meaningless to me _personally_, because I can play perfectly fine the way these sensors are. I say personally because that might be different for people who play with higher sensitivities. My in-game performance with mice is much more determined by shape and weight than the miniscule differences between current sensors (3310 and 3366) and their implementations.

So the reason why I'm looking forward to the Tournament Pro/Scream One is shape and low weight.


----------



## PU skunk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nixtix*
> 
> They said at some point that because pros play on various lans with various types of hardware, that 500hz would have less of chance of putting strain on the PC's as compared to 1000 HZ.....


I remember them (Jude) saying 1000hz directly affected the mouse's performance in a negative way which is why I asked if they had found a work-around with the S1 or had just given in to popular request ...No reply but I remember something about testers finding it "slippery" or something.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> Just out of curiosity have we ever been given a good reason why the fm is 500 hz.


500 hz vs 1000 hz makes like 1-2 ms difference, seems marginal when 3310 -sensor in all implementations have 2 ms more delay and in FM15 implementation has 7 ms delay.. Just saying..

It is actually more important that the polling rate is stable, g303 has true stable polling rate on 1000 hz, other mice that I have tested it is often more stable on 500 hz than 1000 hz.. That is probably what they meant by it. They couldn't guarantee stable 1000 hz polling rate for every motherboard so they decided to keep it on 500 hz..


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Tournament pros will be available tonight from what I am hearing.

1000hz does give a different feel for me and others we have talked to. For the s1 we are developing the firmware from the ground up and we are setting the polling rate to a fixed 1000hz.

This is actually convenient for the 3360 because I believe a lot of the sensors timings are at default 1ms. Not sure on the specifics just what I heard.

Also at the moment we are developing a debounce logic for the buttons which we hope will be very low latency. Had a question for the community:

"Is there a preferable debounce count?"

Thought I would forward that.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> 500 hz vs 1000 hz makes like 1-2 ms difference, seems marginal when 3310 -sensor in all implementations have 2 ms more delay and in FM15implementation has 7 ms delay.. Just saying..
> 
> It is actually more important that the polling rate is stable, g303 has true stable polling rate on 1000 hz, other mice that I have tested it is often more stable on 500 hz than 1000 hz.. That is probably what they meant by it. They couldn't guarantee stable 1000 hz polling rate for every motherboard so they decided to keep it on 500 hz..


One reason I don't use my fm is a. Bc it broke and fm support isn't responding and when it worked I did not use it because the sensor felt "off" or it didn't feel right. High lod made me steer clear along with what feels like sensor delay but idk if that's really what it is. I just really hope the scream one is everything they are hyping it up to be.


----------



## zeflow

Seriously boys I think my F5 key broke on my keyboard...let go fm


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Tournament pros will be available tonight from what I am hearing.


https://youtu.be/PYb2IdrN-ns


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> https://youtu.be/PYb2IdrN-ns


Haha I mean Jude is awesome and a good person but fm has gotta get it together with the release dates.


----------



## john88

I got to change my refresh interval from every hour to every 15 minutes now. Thanks for the update Jude.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Nixtix

Heads up to any Canadian customers looks like the Tournament Pro does not ship to us yet............


----------



## john88

Just ordered mine.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## john88

The "left in stock" doesnt seem to be accurate. Said 3 available, now 7.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Secondo

RIP Europe


----------



## Maximillion

Got my order in, later losers


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Tournament pros will be available tonight from what I am hearing.
> 
> 1000hz does give a different feel for me and others we have talked to. For the s1 we are developing the firmware from the ground up and we are setting the polling rate to a fixed 1000hz.
> 
> This is actually convenient for the 3360 because I believe a lot of the sensors timings are at default 1ms. Not sure on the specifics just what I heard.
> 
> Also at the moment we are developing a debounce logic for the buttons which we hope will be very low latency. Had a question for the community:
> 
> "Is there a preferable debounce count?"
> 
> Thought I would forward that.


@FinalmouseJude when would it release in Europe?


----------



## Derp

I would buy one right now if it wasn't another 500Hz 3310 mouse. Hurry up with that scream version.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Tournament pros will be available tonight from what I am hearing.
> 
> 1000hz does give a different feel for me and others we have talked to. For the s1 we are developing the firmware from the ground up and we are setting the polling rate to a fixed 1000hz.
> 
> This is actually convenient for the 3360 because I believe a lot of the sensors timings are at default 1ms. Not sure on the specifics just what I heard.
> 
> Also at the moment we are developing a debounce logic for the buttons which we hope will be very low latency. Had a question for the community:
> 
> "Is there a preferable debounce count?"
> 
> Thought I would forward that.


Have you read this?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yea you'd need a new pcb and firmware of course
> 
> http://www.eng.utah.edu/~cs5780/debouncing.pdf
> see hardware debouncing part.


----------



## falcon26

I just got the Final Mouse 2016. And while its a great mouse, that LED on the logo is super super bright compared to other mice with the LED logo in the same spot. Is there a way to turn it down?


----------



## equlix

Got mine. Tuesday can't get here quick enough


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Have you read this?
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> yea you'd need a new pcb and firmware of course
> 
> http://www.eng.utah.edu/~cs5780/debouncing.pdf
> see hardware debouncing part.
Click to expand...

the riskiness of this method is uncertain, as no mouse has done it before.

theoretically, if the switch is worn, sometimes button releases won't be registered and the button will be stuck in a pressed state. i have no idea how likely this issue would occur.

but even if you do support this method in the pcb+firmware, it's a trivial matter to modify the firmware to make the behavior identical to the normal configuration, using 1 pullup input on the NO (normally open) pin.

if you do use the normal configuration, i recommend:
1. continuously poll the input for at least 200us every usb frame
2. don't add any latency to button clicks. as soon as there is a click, register it.
3. 15-25ms latency on button releases. i.e. only count the button as being unpressed if it's been unpressed for 15-25ms.

you can make it slightly more robust by adding ~5ms latency to the button presses; that's what logitech does for their new mice (g502, g402, g303, g302...)


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Our current debounce logic registers the click immediately it's the first thing that happens.

And I believe polling is taken care of. I think we just wanted to know the actual poll counts to add to the debounce before another click can be registered. I guess he wanted to save time trial and erroring?

And on a side note as you all know tournament pro is available in North America .

Edit: how would 5ms added on the top make it more robust? Could you clarify this for me as I'm curious and will pass along the info.


----------



## qsxcv

cannot understand your second sentence


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Nvm you had answered the question in your third bullet point.

15-25 counts. Sounds right


----------



## Secondo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Nvm you had answered the question in your third bullet point.
> 
> 15-25 counts. Sounds right


When will Europe get stock?


----------



## Jonagold

Just don't add the 5ms, it is a compromise.. Previous method used in FM15 was good, keep using it..

In csgo fastest fire-rate is with Negev 1000 rpm, meaning 60 ms between every bullet pressing key for 25 ms should be enough for shooting 1 bullet at a time..

If you added 5 ms delay you would get 20 ms duration for 1-tapping 5 ms different in duration wouldn't make as big of a difference as it does in click delay for fast flicks..

However I guess csgo has problems allowing next bullet to fire if button release is closer to the time of next bullet than first.

Meaning if the first bullet leaves at the time of 0 ms and at the firerate of 1000rpm next bullet would leave at 60 ms.. Now if you press button it registers at 0 ms when first bullet leaves and the button release registers at 25ms it still should only shoot 1 bullet since 25 ms is closer to 0 ms than 60 ms.. But if you get bugged for over 5 ms because of some kind of fluctuation or anything and it takes over 30 ms for the button release, then the second bullet would leave as well..

Fluctuation could be caused because of server tick-rate for example, on 128 tic servers one tick last about 7,8 ms.. If you have bad luck and you release the button just before the next tick, it would add over 7 ms to the delay before the server registers your button release making it 32 ms and causing second bullet to leave even if you try to shoot 1 bullet at a time..

Well, this all is only speculation I haven't tested this at all and my knowledge about client-server behavior and ways how the game handles firing mechanism is limited.. So take this with grain of salt and you can do research according to those things I mentioned.

Purely from my experience I can say that I has been more difficult to 1 tap with some of those Logitech mice using this kind of denouncing even though looking at pure numbers it shouldn't be a problem.. That's why I started wondering those other reasons for that behavior I mentioned above..

tl;dr = Debouncing in FM15 was fine, keep using it, don't add any delay..


----------



## wareya

Don't add any delay. If you really have to add filtering only add 1ms of filtering. Any more /should be/ unnecessary for mouse buttons. Just do the "don't release for X milliseconds" thing. I would actually use 7ms since that's slightly lower than the fastest click-unclick I'm humanly capable of and it's below a strict 1/128th of a second, but it might be pushing it without doing any filtering. 10-15ms would be fine.


----------



## qsxcv

it is beneficial in the long run to add a delay to the releases. doing so is more robust than the method i proposed in the past (ignore changes for ~20ms after a click or release)

i think this is how logitech does it too


----------



## wareya

Yeah I meant to the signal as a whole. I brought up release delay in the last three sentences.

Definitely important for you to bring up the difference between "ignore everything for X milliseconds after clicking" and "don't unclick until you have X straight milliseconds of being released", though. The former doesn't do anything to prevent momentary reclicking when you release.

Actually now I remember TF2 has sticky bombs where they fire when you release the button. 20ms delay on release would be really bad for that. How about this:

1) 1ms filter
2) Xms blockage after it detects a click
3) Xms blockage after it detects an unclick

Just doing 2 doesn't prevent glitchy clicking when you release, but adding 3 to the system does. It's not as robust, you're right, but also doing filtering should help prevent problems and not add as much latency to releases as blocking on releases does.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> it is beneficial in the long run to add a delay to the releases. doing so is more robust than the method i proposed in the past (ignore changes for ~20ms after a click or release)
> 
> i think this is how logitech does it too


Why is it beneficial to have that extra delay on releases? I definitely don't know much about debouncing but couldn't this problem be solved with different hardware instead of with software? Sorry if those are stupid questions. Like I said I don't know much about this topic.


----------



## wareya

You can mess with different hardware designs, but it's a whole new world when you do that. Definitely not something you would do outside of RnD.

With the current hardware, maybe you could dynamically switch between post-release blockage and release delay depending on how long the mouse button has been pressed and what the sensor is doing. Remember when someone had to put something over their sensor when doing mouse button smash tests because it ramped up the filter?

(Don't increase click down delay when someone lifts up the mouse, people who are sniping sometimes lift their mouse to make sure they don't move their crosshair when they click.)


----------



## qsxcv

well since all the methods are compromises one way or another, how about open source the firmware so we can do watever we want


----------



## Jonagold

I forgot to mention but perfect way to solve this problem is optical switches, they have zero debounce.. Some Bloody-tech mice are using them. I don't know how widely they are available and if they require some implementing though..

I suggest at least checking it out. Nice thing to mention in marketing as well..


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> You can mess with different hardware designs, but it's a whole new world when you do that. Definitely not something you would do outside of RnD.
> 
> With the current hardware, maybe you could dynamically switch between post-release blockage and release delay depending on how long the mouse button has been pressed and what the sensor is doing. Remember when someone had to put something over their sensor when doing mouse button smash tests because it ramped up the filter?
> 
> (Don't increase click down delay when someone lifts up the mouse, people who are sniping sometimes lift their mouse to make sure they don't move their crosshair when they click.)


I have tendency to lift the mouse slightly to get less friction, faster micro-correction speed and better accuracy. That's why I cant use mice with extremely low LOD, Razer Mamba laser mouse was horrible due to z -axis problem..


----------



## wareya

Same. Even the KPM's LOD is slightly too low for me.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> You can mess with different hardware designs, but it's a whole new world when you do that. Definitely not something you would do outside of RnD.
> 
> With the current hardware, maybe you could dynamically switch between post-release blockage and release delay depending on how long the mouse button has been pressed and what the sensor is doing. Remember when someone had to put something over their sensor when doing mouse button smash tests because it ramped up the filter?
> 
> (Don't increase click down delay when someone lifts up the mouse, people who are sniping sometimes lift their mouse to make sure they don't move their crosshair when they click.)


I find that a little hard to believe. I mean that amateur article written by that EE even mentioned hardware debouncing solutions so clearly they exist and the methods are established. Besides, even if it did take some research it'd be worth it if they could advertise that they're selling a mouse with the lowest delay on the market.

@qxscv Well as cool as that would be it unfortunately wouldn't help 99% of the people buying it unless they paid people like you to tinker with the firmware for them


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well since all the methods are compromises one way or another, how about open source the firmware so we can do watever we want


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What if FinalMouse allowed people like qsxcv to customize their firmware for all their products? If they aren't going to make their products more versatile at least open it up as an option for other people to mess with.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well even if they did, it won't be me


----------



## john88

Are you guys getting estimated delivery for tuesday too?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *john88*
> 
> Are you guys getting estimated delivery for tuesday too?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yeah tuesday delivery for me.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *john88*
> 
> Are you guys getting estimated delivery for tuesday too?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


thursday the 4th for me


----------



## ncck

Looks interesting but the sides seem flat - hopefully the scream edition has the sides more inward for a comfortable claw!

Upload some pics when you get em guys


----------



## TburdzZ

So I am really pissed at finalmouse at this point in time. I have a broken fm 2015 summer and they are refusing to replace it saying they have already sent me one. I requested they send me a new one a ways back but it was not in stock on amazon so i thought to myself well if its not in stock on amazon then they probably do not have one to send me so I never gave them my address and a fm was never sent. Now that they are back in stock im sure they will have one to send me so I asked and the guy is like hmmm it seems we have already sent a fm to this amazon order number. Now fm support is ignoring me and im really mad because 69$ is a lot for a student like me.

Here is the email convo

Just wanted to have a new fm sent out to replace my fm 2015 summer which had the front side button go out completely. I use the front button frequently and I need it to be functional.

Amazon order number .......

Mouse was purchased on .....

My address is .....

Thanks From Thomas

His response

Hello Thomas,

We have already had a replacement sent out for this order number.

Thanks,
Finalmouse Support

My response

No sir I did ask for it but I figued since it was out of stock on Amazon you would not have any to send me so I never gave adress and one was never sent. Sorry for confusion.

Thanks From Thomas

Then he decided to ignor me so I sent him another email

Sir you have not had a replacment sent out check your logs I am being 100% straight with you I have the email conversation I have both email conversations with the rep I had before and I thought i had a sensor problem but it turned out to be a mousepad issue. I then had the button issue but I opted not to have one shipped out because I thought since it was not in stock on amazon it you would not have one to ship me. Im not lying to you and im somewhat upset that you do not have proper logs to look into this. I am very upset that the rep i had before marked it as shipped and I will be warning everybody on the forums about this. I hope to get this sorted out.

Thanks Thomas Burden

Pending response

I really hope jude can step in and help me out as I know fm is trying there best but this really makes me mad at how a rep said shipped when nothing was ever shipped to me.


----------



## ncck

Did you keep the original e-mail conversation? Search for it and upload a picture of it to the conversation

If there support is strictly e-mail you're probably going to need a copy on your end if they don't use some type of support thing on their website. They should be able to see that they never shipped anything out to that address though.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Did you keep the original e-mail conversation? Search for it and upload a picture of it to the conversation
> 
> If there support is strictly e-mail you're probably going to need a copy on your end if they don't use some type of support thing on their website. They should be able to see that they never shipped anything out to that address though.


I do have it and i do not have time to post now as i am leaving my study hall will post later


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Looks interesting but the sides seem flat - hopefully the scream edition has the sides more inward for a comfortable claw!
> 
> Upload some pics when you get em guys


Why would you need sides to be inward for a claw grip? How would that even matter? All I see is that if sides were inward those sides would feel very uncomfortable when palming and also forcing your fingers to be angled even when clawing or fingertipping..


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Why would you need sides to be inward for a claw grip? How would that even matter? All I see is that if sides were inward those sides would feel very uncomfortable when palming and also forcing your fingers to be angled even when clawing or fingertipping..


I'm confused, when you claw your fingers should be bent. If the sides are inward it's more comfortable because you don't have to bend them as much to get the same grip. It'd probably make palm feel worse - but feel better for claw


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I'm confused, when you claw your fingers should be bent. If the sides are inward it's more comfortable because you don't have to bend them as much to get the same grip. It'd probably make palm feel worse - but feel better for claw


Those edges kind of limit your finger movements and that is bad in my opinion.. Same thing you like is just what I dislike I like that the point of contact only happens with fingertips even when claw-gripping..


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> So I am really pissed at finalmouse at this point in time. I have a broken fm 2015 summer and they are refusing to replace it saying they have already sent me one. I requested they send me a new one a ways back but it was not in stock on amazon so i thought to myself well if its not in stock on amazon then they probably do not have one to send me so I never gave them my address and a fm was never sent. Now that they are back in stock im sure they will have one to send me so I asked and the guy is like hmmm it seems we have already sent a fm to this amazon order number. Now fm support is ignoring me and im really mad because 69$ is a lot for a student like me.
> 
> Here is the email convo
> 
> Just wanted to have a new fm sent out to replace my fm 2015 summer which had the front side button go out completely. I use the front button frequently and I need it to be functional.
> 
> Amazon order number .......
> 
> Mouse was purchased on .....
> 
> My address is .....
> 
> Thanks From Thomas
> 
> His response
> 
> Hello Thomas,
> 
> We have already had a replacement sent out for this order number.
> 
> Thanks,
> Finalmouse Support
> 
> My response
> 
> No sir I did ask for it but I figued since it was out of stock on Amazon you would not have any to send me so I never gave adress and one was never sent. Sorry for confusion.
> 
> Thanks From Thomas
> 
> Then he decided to ignor me so I sent him another email
> 
> Sir you have not had a replacment sent out check your logs I am being 100% straight with you I have the email conversation I have both email conversations with the rep I had before and I thought i had a sensor problem but it turned out to be a mousepad issue. I then had the button issue but I opted not to have one shipped out because I thought since it was not in stock on amazon it you would not have one to ship me. Im not lying to you and im somewhat upset that you do not have proper logs to look into this. I am very upset that the rep i had before marked it as shipped and I will be warning everybody on the forums about this. I hope to get this sorted out.
> 
> Thanks Thomas Burden
> 
> Pending response
> 
> I really hope jude can step in and help me out as I know fm is trying there best but this really makes me mad at how a rep said shipped when nothing was ever shipped to me.


Just wanted to say that fm corrected the situation so good job on them.


----------



## natshuba

out of curiosity, i love the ambi shape but when I tried the 2016 original classic ERGO FM, somethins feels 'different' from the sensor, feels like theres acceleration/smoothing is that just placebo using a new mouse or is there something wrong with the sensors? I came from a zowie/rival fade user


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *natshuba*
> 
> out of curiosity, i love the ambi shape but when I tried the 2016 original classic ERGO FM, somethins feels 'different' from the sensor, feels like theres acceleration/smoothing is that just placebo using a new mouse or is there something wrong with the sensors? I came from a zowie/rival fade user


It could be differences in the sensor implementation, not sure if zowie or ss use similar levels of filtering that fm uses, but it could also be just the shape and weight affecting your perception of how the sensor feels. Hard to say without someone like qsxcv doing some objective measurements.


----------



## qsxcv

well they claim it's using the same implementation (which i take to mean firmware/mcu + illumination)

or there's this
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Edit: Also I notice a big difference between fresh Teflon and worn in Teflon. This is actually one of the biggest things for me. If the coating on the Teflon has not worn in smaller movements are much harder to make and the mouse also feels way more sensitive. Little things like this for some reason I notice well before sensor.


which could be a potential issue


----------



## equlix

delivery date changed to monday. My body is ready


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> delivery date changed to monday. My body is ready


The heck really?? Mine is still wendesday, i was one of the first orders too. Darn it.


----------



## Jonagold

blue balls confirmed


----------



## equlix

Don't worry bb i'll post pics


----------



## Fragil1ty

I still cannot believe that it's only available in the US at the moment, so damn annoying.

You would have thought that due to the success of the original FM that they would be doing a international release, I mean, if you live in Canada you can't even order one from the US, I can't even order one from amazon.com to the UK, yet I could with the FM 2015? Lol, it's just stupid.

I get that it's an American company and obviously, it was/is an obvious choice to appeal to your countries demographic first, but it's just bad business practice imo. You wouldn't see a company such as Logitech/Zowie and so on, put out a mouse in a specific country first without having the availability elsewhere. I'm just annoyed at this fact.

But I guess this is just a small outcry, probably one that is going to be ignored due to the fact that Americans are already getting their mice and therefore there are going to be a majority of happy customers. Oh well, I expected better, I guess I and many others will just carry on waiting.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I still cannot believe that it's only available in the US at the moment, so damn annoying.
> 
> You would have thought that due to the success of the original FM that they would be doing a international release, I mean, if you live in Canada you can't even order one from the US, I can't even order one from amazon.com to the UK, yet I could with the FM 2015? Lol, it's just stupid.
> 
> I get that it's an American company and obviously, it was/is an obvious choice to appeal to your countries demographic first, but it's just bad business practice imo. You wouldn't see a company such as Logitech/Zowie and so on, put out a mouse in a specific country first without having the availability elsewhere. I'm just annoyed at this fact.
> 
> But I guess this is just a small outcry, probably one that is going to be ignored due to the fact that Americans are already getting their mice and therefore there are going to be a majority of happy customers. Oh well, I expected better, I guess I and many others will just carry on waiting.


It's highly unlikely that they did a staggered release because they really wanted to play favorites with certain countries or something. As we all know, the release didn't go as planned even in the US so things probably didn't work out internationally either. It's probably just taking longer to sort things out overseas. I doubt they would choose to not release a highly desired product as soon as they could.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *natshuba*
> 
> out of curiosity, i love the ambi shape but when I tried the 2016 original classic ERGO FM, somethins feels 'different' from the sensor, feels like theres acceleration/smoothing is that just placebo using a new mouse or is there something wrong with the sensors? I came from a zowie/rival fade user


Ik what you mean it feels like delay or it feels sort of "slippery" for lack of better words


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I get that it's an American company and obviously, it was/is an obvious choice to appeal to your countries demographic first, but it's just bad business practice imo. You wouldn't see a company such as Logitech/Zowie and so on, put out a mouse in a specific country first without having the availability elsewhere. I'm just annoyed at this fact.


Logitech doesn't release all their products to every country.

I think Zowie releases stuff to the Asian market before the US. Then (It appears sometimes) the EU people will get the products before the US.


----------



## starmanwarz

I could use some help.

Looking to buy a new mouse and I'm torn between the Zowie EC1-A and the FinalMouse 2016. Previously owned a DA2013 (love the shape) and the FK1 (hate the shape).

Has anyone here used both, which one do you prefer and why? Also, what's up with all this hype, are FM releasing a new mouse?


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starmanwarz*
> 
> I could use some help.
> 
> Looking to buy a new mouse and I'm torn between the Zowie EC1-A and the FinalMouse 2016. Previously owned a DA2013 (love the shape) and the FK1 (hate the shape).
> 
> Has anyone here used both, which one do you prefer and why? Also, what's up with all this hype, are FM releasing a new mouse?


The hype is about the new finalmouse with a shape similar to the fk1 ambidextrous design. To answer your question I'd go with the ec1. Way more deathadder shape with a great sensor like the finalmouse's. I've had both. However you could just wait until later this year when fm releases a new ergo shape that isn't actually an OEM shell.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I still cannot believe that it's only available in the US at the moment, so damn annoying.
> 
> You would have thought that due to the success of the original FM that they would be doing a international release, I mean, if you live in Canada you can't even order one from the US, I can't even order one from amazon.com to the UK, yet I could with the FM 2015? Lol, it's just stupid.
> 
> I get that it's an American company and obviously, it was/is an obvious choice to appeal to your countries demographic first, but it's just bad business practice imo. You wouldn't see a company such as Logitech/Zowie and so on, put out a mouse in a specific country first without having the availability elsewhere. I'm just annoyed at this fact.
> 
> But I guess this is just a small outcry, probably one that is going to be ignored due to the fact that Americans are already getting their mice and therefore there are going to be a majority of happy customers. Oh well, I expected better, I guess I and many others will just carry on waiting.


Well, I'm still waiting for a better way to buy the FM since the first one.
The only option I have is Amazon, but in there I'd need to pay insane taxes and the mouse would cost me 140~150$ in total.
I've messaged their support a couple of times and they always says stuff like "Yea we're looking into it", but in reality they don't care.

They're probably already rich at this point, selling a Motospeed V2 with the 3310 for 67$


----------



## wmoftw

stop whining and find solutions

https://www.shipito.com/

protip: avoid UPS, FedEX. use USPS when shipping over the border, you avoid huge duties/custom fees

you people are nuts if you think it's somehow 'stupid' to only sell to the USA. it just became available a few days ago, it's called logistics. I don't understand how anyone is surprised by something like this. it's a small business trying to sell a mouse online, you can't expect worldwide shipping on day two of release


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> stop whining and find solutions
> 
> https://www.shipito.com/
> 
> protip: avoid UPS, FedEX. use USPS when shipping over the border, you avoid huge duties/custom fees
> 
> you people are nuts if you think it's somehow 'stupid' to only sell to the USA. it just became available a few days ago, it's called logistics. I don't understand how anyone is surprised by something like this. it's a small business trying to sell a mouse online, you can't expect worldwide shipping on day two of release


It's not as simple as you think it is, actually.
I would need to pay more than 20$ for the cheapest and slowest shipping with them, and that would take easily more than 45 days to arrive.
Not only that, but all the fees/taxes that I'd need to pay to my credit card, and to our postal service.

That mouse would easily cost me 90$ or even more in total, plus the *insane* awaiting time.

And I'm not even asking them to come to my country and sell their products here, but having their own virtual store would help many people. Right now they're only selling their products on Amazon.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starmanwarz*
> 
> I could use some help.
> 
> Looking to buy a new mouse and I'm torn between the Zowie EC1-A and the FinalMouse 2016. Previously owned a DA2013 (love the shape) and the FK1 (hate the shape).
> 
> Has anyone here used both, which one do you prefer and why? Also, what's up with all this hype, are FM releasing a new mouse?


Question is why on earth would you not go for the DA Chroma. If you love the shape and want a new one - what is wrong with people nowadays :O I've tried to find a shape I love for 2 years. Still looking. If i'd love the da shape I wouldn't even come to ocn anymore, let alone look for new mice. Cause it's really good imho.

Edit: far better than FM in terms of hardware+shell. Also, I believe the 3988 implementation is better than the zowie's 3310.


----------



## starmanwarz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Question is why on earth would you not go for the DA Chroma. If you love the shape and want a new one - what is wrong with people nowadays :O I've tried to find a shape I love for 2 years. Still looking. If i'd love the da shape I wouldn't even come to ocn anymore, let alone look for new mice. Cause it's really good imho.
> 
> Edit: far better than FM in terms of hardware+shell. Also, I believe the 3988 implementation is better than the zowie's 3310.


Had 2 Razer mice and they keep breaking after a few months. Not a big fan of RGB too.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starmanwarz*
> 
> Had 2 Razer mice and they keep breaking after a few months. Not a big fan of RGB too.


You can read the exact same about FM and Zowie though. For me personally, I've had broken Roccat, Steelseries mice. So YMMV. Mostly it's omrons doubleclicking, led dying or what not.


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> It's not as simple as you think it is, actually.
> I would need to pay more than 20$ for the cheapest and slowest shipping with them, and that would take easily more than 45 days to arrive.
> Not only that, but all the fees/taxes that I'd need to pay to my credit card, and to our postal service.
> 
> That mouse would easily cost me 90$ or even more in total, plus the *insane* awaiting time.
> 
> And I'm not even asking them to come to my country and sell their products here, but having their own virtual store would help many people. Right now they're only selling their products on Amazon.


That sucks dude. You might as well save up for the Scream One (which all things considered, you'd likely get sometime this fall lol/smh).

I still remember your struggle getting the FK1







...


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> it's a small business trying to sell a mouse online, you can't expect worldwide shipping on day two of release


They have never sold their mice to anyone outside of the US border.

Just gave up of ever owning any Final Mouse model because of the rarity of it, plus the insane idiot prices on Ebay from scumbags wanting to gouge anyone for this product.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> They have never sold their mice to anyone outside of the US border.
> 
> Just gave up of ever owning any Final Mouse model because of the rarity of it, plus the insane idiot prices on Ebay from scumbags wanting to gouge anyone for this product.


they have mice on amazon USA/CAN, UK, Germany, and a 'worldwide' amazon link


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> They have never sold their mice to anyone outside of the US border.
> 
> Just gave up of ever owning any Final Mouse model because of the rarity of it, plus the insane idiot prices on Ebay from scumbags wanting to gouge anyone for this product.


The Classic Ergo ships to australia from their amazon site


----------



## Kayed

They only offer in on the US (.com) and UK (.uk) amazon.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kayed*
> 
> They only offer in on the US (.com) and UK (.uk) amazon.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MX8QSLW/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00MX8QSLW&linkCode=as2&tag=final0b-20&linkId=QPN5ANTCYBXUKHKH

international merchant link - https://www.amazon.com/s?merchant=A3FG85N1VEKVI5


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iceskeleton*
> 
> The Classic Ergo ships to australia from their amazon site


Not interested in dealing with "Amazon", ever







.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Not interested in dealing with "Amazon", ever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Poor you sir, AmaZon is the ish.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> The hype is about the new finalmouse with a shape similar to the fk1 ambidextrous design. To answer your question I'd go with the ec1. Way more deathadder shape with a great sensor like the finalmouse's. I've had both. However you could just wait until later this year when fm releases a new ergo shape that isn't actually an OEM shell.


Wait is fm actually making an ergo with its own shell???


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> Wait is fm actually making an ergo with its own shell???


It was said that the new Ergo shape is 6 months or so away, most likely towards christmas.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *falcon26*
> 
> I just got the Final Mouse 2016. And while its a great mouse, that LED on the logo is super super bright compared to other mice with the LED logo in the same spot. Is there a way to turn it down?


FinalMouse makes mice with no software support so you can't do useful things like turn the LED off. They fail even more than Zowie:


Can't change polling rate
LED that can't be turned off because it's an esports LED
No access to 50 CPI increments
No adjustable LOD
No firmware updates

So congratulations for paying $70 for a cheap mouse that is deliberately expensive to make it seem "premium". After all it's an esports ultra gaming mouse with ultra esports technology for real gamers. Another business who does nothing but marketing spin and no innovation. Hell at least Zowie put some effort into changing polling rate and LOD just through button combinations something I wish others would do as well as providing software support for full sensor functionality.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> FinalMouse makes mice with no software support so you can't do useful things like turn the LED off. They fail even more than Zowie:
> 
> Can't change polling rate
> LED that can't be turned off because it's an _esports LED_
> No access to 50 CPI increments
> No adjustable LOD
> No firmware updates
> So congratulations for paying $70 for a cheap mouse that is deliberately expensive to make it seem "premium". After all it's an esports ultra gaming mouse with ultra esports technology for _real gamers_. Another business who does nothing but marketing spin and no innovation. Hell at least Zowie put some effort into changing polling rate and LOD through button combinations.


That is unfortunately true, even if their shapes are nice. Anyone who denies this just lives in denial.
I personally care about the shape of the Tournament Ambi version. I'm not buying it but definitely interested to see the reviews to see if they actually improved anything since the Ergo models.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> That sucks dude. You might as well save up for the Scream One (which all things considered, you'd likely get sometime this fall lol/smh).
> 
> I still remember your struggle getting the FK1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah dude, I had to wait more than 110 days.
I thought it was lost and I bought another one, and then both arrived with like 3 days difference. ***.

I might consider getting the ScreaM One just because of the ambi shape + 3360 + low-ish click latency.
But I'll wait for reviews and for a possible competitor, because I don't really feel like paying 77$ for it


----------



## starmanwarz

Still undecided about which mouse to get, the Zowie EC1-A/EC2-A or the FinalMouse 2016. I can't seem to find stock for the Zowies so I am now reconsidering the FM.

Is it worth the hype? I understand the the quality is not very good. What also concerns me is how comfortable would it be for a palm/claw grip (20 cm hands). Not interested in the new Tournament edition as I prefer ergo mice.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starmanwarz*
> 
> Still undecided about which mouse to get, the Zowie EC1-A/EC2-A or the FinalMouse 2016. I can't seem to find stock for the Zowies so I am now reconsidering the FM.
> 
> Is it worth the hype? I understand the the quality is not very good. What also concerns me is how comfortable would it be for a palm/claw grip (20 cm hands). Not interested in the new Tournament edition as I prefer ergo mice.


EC1-A is more like IE 3.0, where FM 2016 is more like the logitech G400/MX518.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starmanwarz*
> 
> Still undecided about which mouse to get, the Zowie EC1-A/EC2-A or the FinalMouse 2016. I can't seem to find stock for the Zowies so I am now reconsidering the FM.
> 
> Is it worth the hype? I understand the the quality is not very good. What also concerns me is how comfortable would it be for a palm/claw grip (20 cm hands). Not interested in the new Tournament edition as I prefer ergo mice.


I honestly love the FM, I choose it over my FK1 due to the clicks and how light the mouse is, it just feels better in my hands in all honesty and I use a claw grip.


----------



## TburdzZ

Anyone get your tourney pros yet. I am really really hoping to see a big quality boost on the side buttons and the overall feel and quality of the mouse. So hyped to hear from you guys who are getting them today mine isnt getting to me or a while. I hope the clicks are improved too as i thought they were subpar on the ergo 2015. I also hope they and use huanos in the future.

PS just listed new unopened fm 2016 ergo on ebay for cheaper then amazon.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Pictures on Twitter in regards to the Finalmouse Tournament Pro 2016.

 [1]

 [2]

 [3]

@SpitFyreMC
Quote:


> "Couple annoyances I've noticed already after plugging it in just lighting issues/oddities"


All credit goes to: https://twitter.com/SpitFyreMC


----------



## PU skunk

Side buttons look decent this time. Maybe you can thumb roll them?


----------



## coldc0ffee

Dang light still comes thru the side buttons like on the ergo. Other than that looks good so far


----------



## BubbaDubBub

Just got my Tourney Pro and it's fantastic. There's no rattle, the shape is perfect for my hybrid grip (With an 18.5cm hand), the sensor is as expected (Great!), and the weight is exceptional coming from a g100s; But not without 3 glaring issues. The light leaking through the side is quite annoying as this is a premium product and should have a better look. The rubber on the scroll wheel was not applied correctly as there appears to be some excess sticking up from where it seals to the wheel. And lastly my right click is significantly heavier than the left as well sound different (Which the left click is very much like an omron d2fc-f-7n in feeling), and it causes me to mess up some shots I would normally get, although I believe I could get used to it. I don't know if this will be a recurring problem with other units, but it is quite an issue that should be addressed as it should be uniform to the left click. Once these issues are resolved, the Scream one edition could very well be considered the best (competitive) mouse on the market.

(And as for the side buttons they're good as well, I am able to roll my thumb on them very easily without releasing my grip. They have a light actuation and spamming is easy.)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> EC1-A is more like IE 3.0, where FM 2016 is more like the logitech G400/MX518.


Razer Imperator.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> Side buttons look decent this time. Maybe you can thumb roll them?


They look too far forward.


----------



## iceskeleton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BubbaDubBub*
> 
> Just got my Tourney Pro and it's fantastic. There's no rattle, the shape is perfect for my hybrid grip (With an 18.5cm hand), the sensor is as expected (Great!), and the weight is exceptional coming from a g100s; But not without 3 glaring issues. The light leaking through the side is quite annoying as this is a premium product and should have a better look. The rubber on the scroll wheel was not applied correctly as there appears to be some excess sticking up from where it seals to the wheel. And lastly my right click is significantly heavier than the left as well sound different (Which the left click is very much like an omron d2fc-f-7n in feeling), and it causes me to mess up some shots I would normally get, although I believe I could get used to it. I don't know if this will be a recurring problem with other units, but it is quite an issue that should be addressed as it should be uniform to the left click. Once these issues are resolved, the Scream one edition could very well be considered the best (competitive) mouse on the market.
> 
> (And as for the side buttons they're good as well, I am able to roll my thumb on them very easily without releasing my grip. They have a light actuation and spamming is easy.)


Post some mousetester graphs if you can


----------



## Maximillion

Me reading this thread right now: https://youtu.be/Yop62wQH498?t=15


----------



## equlix

http://imgur.com/a/IVHae album of random pictures of the tournament pro with the za rival and 1.1a.

edit: After some dm the side buttons are similar the the za11 a fair bit of travel but feel good. L and R click also feel great. First impression of shape is its seriously good, it's like a bigger better version of the mionix castor.
The sensor is on point but I haven't run it long enough to say 100%. Mine came in a beat up box and I can see spots of light through the paint on the back of the mouse so qc needs some work but I could give af as long as it keeps working like it is now.


----------



## equlix

finalmouse1600.csv 4k .csv file

havent used mousetester before but here is plot @1600 dpi


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Razer Imperator.
> They look too far forward.


No it isn't like the imperator, it is the imperator. I was pointing out that it was more of a thumb groove mouse like the old logi's.


----------



## wmoftw

dat



shape



oh my god where is mine


----------



## equlix

it's nice. On the shape alone i'm pretty sold on the S1 whenever it decides to show up.


----------



## Derp

Now that I think of it, 76g is a little hard to believe for a mouse that size. Do you have a scale? Can you check the weight like this?


----------



## wmoftw

mine hasn't shipped yet? i chose free shipping though


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Now that I think of it, 76g is a little hard to believe for a mouse that size. Do you have a scale? Can you check the weight like this?


The weight of the ergo FM is heavier than they quoted originally. The weight of the symmetrical FM was said to be ~87g.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The weight of the ergo FM is heavier than they quoted originally. The weight of the symmetrical FM was said to be ~87g.


That sounds more accurate. Finalmouse should really fix that if it's true... 76g and 74g is advertised on their website and on both Amazon product pages. People *usually* don't like being lied to.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> That sounds more accurate. Finalmouse should really fix that if it's true... 76g and 74g is advertised on their website and on both Amazon product pages. People *usually* don't like being lied too.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> The scream one will be coming a few weeks from now and will be equipped in two models. A 3310 version and a 3360 version which uses a new controller and custom implementation without the low pass filter. This will be unveiled in a couple weeks. 3360 *weight is a bit heavier at 81-82 ish grams prewiring*.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Actually, Jude said the symmetrical FM is 81-82g before fully assembled. I'm guessing 84-87g "on the table."


----------



## FinalmouseJude

I try and state the wet on scale weight when I can. I had posted pictures several months back.

The hard part is that we cant just officially weigh the mice with the cable because naturally a braided cable will weigh anything down even if its hanging off a scale. So the factory does the weight prewiring and assembly.

We are putting up a specifications/comparison page soon that will have all these more detailed specs written out.

But in general you get around `~86-87 grams wet weight on the Pro, and 84-86 on the classic.

S1 was initially supposed to be heavier but we made a mistake with the PCB, it will actually be lighter than the tournament pro, since about 20% of the pcb is no longer there since no LED is necessary for the sensor.

There is a way we can cut about 5 grams off of the weight of the pro and get it down to an official 71 grams preassembly but at that point you begin sacrificing sensor performance. With the 3360 maintaining stability is very important and when you cut out too much weight then the mouse naturally starts tilting, being lifted naturally when swiped, etc....

So its actually pretty hard to go below 70 grams.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I try and state the wet on scale weight when I can. I had posted pictures several months back.
> 
> The hard part is that we cant just officially weigh the mice with the cable because naturally a braided cable will weigh anything down even if its hanging off a scale. So the factory does the weight prewiring and assembly.
> 
> We are putting up a specifications/comparison page soon that will have all these more detailed specs written out.
> 
> But in general you get around `~86-87 grams wet weight on the Pro, and 84-86 on the classic.
> 
> S1 was initially supposed to be heavier but we made a mistake with the PCB, it will actually be lighter than the tournament pro, since about 20% of the pcb is no longer there since no LED is necessary for the sensor.
> 
> There is a way we can cut about 5 grams off of the weight of the pro and get it down to an official 71 grams preassembly but at that point you begin sacrificing sensor performance. With the 3360 maintaining stability is very important and when you cut out too much weight then the mouse naturally starts tilting, being lifted naturally when swiped, etc....
> 
> So its actually pretty hard to go below 70 grams.


You could do what Logitech does -- cut off the cable from the exit and then weigh the mouse.

I was wondering why the 3360 would be heavier when it's physically smaller and doesn't require the same PCB footprint. Hence why I was wondering if you could push the sensor position closer to the wheel.

There shouldn't be any LEDs on the Scream1 version because they serve no use. The PCB could be more compact, the shell wouldn't need extra plastic to funnel the light to the logo and you won't need to use transparent ABS.

I don't know why people think you could make a decent quality, medium sized mouse, with side buttons, that weighs close to 70g. The WMO is ~80g mouse without side buttons.


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Now that I think of it, 76g is a little hard to believe for a mouse that size. Do you have a scale? Can you check the weight like this?


http://imgur.com/a/dUN5C ask and recive


----------



## qsxcv

my 2015 fmse (with both leds and part of the sensor led clip clipped off) weighs ~85g. something between 82 and 88 depending on how you hold the cable.

it definitely feels light though, even though, for instance, g303 measures around the same weight. i think it's to do with the weight of the cable.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

We actually do plan to push the sensor position up ever so slightly on the scream one. And i mean EVER so slightly.

And like I said there are ways we can cut even more weight off of the s1/tp shape... but with the 3360 i dont think its necessarily wise. Pixart goes as far as to recommend teflon feet around the sensor for increased stability... obviously this is not necessary... but when you get too light this warping/tilting while swiping becomes more of an issue.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> And like I said there are ways we can cut even more weight off of the s1/tp shape... but with the 3360 i dont think its necessarily wise. Pixart goes as far as to recommend teflon feet around the sensor for increased stability... obviously this is not necessary..


well apparently logitech thinks it's necessary as all their mice have it


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> well apparently logitech thinks it's necessary as all their mice have it


Got to keep that soft foam mouse pad in check. Even on hard pads a mouse can flex if you are the type of person to rest your hand on the mouse rather than the table.

It's better to have them than not to have them because you can always take the feet off.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We actually do plan to push the sensor position up ever so slightly on the scream one. And i mean EVER so slightly.


I am talking millimeters further forward. Apparently the general consumer only wants the sensor in the middle of the mouse. I am one of a few people who wants it as close to the scroll wheel as physically possible.

By the way, I think those side buttons on the TP need a redesign. They look like they stick out way too much.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Also I believe we are clamping the 3360 lens to the sensor itself, so stability wise it should be more than fine.


----------



## Klopfer

and I like it a bit more back from the middle


----------



## qsxcv

it seems like only a tiny bit, but for instance if you look at the 3090 datasheet, dpi changes by ~1.3% for a 0.1mm difference in height. the value is similar for the 3360.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Also I believe we are clamping the 3360 lens to the sensor itself, so stability wise it should be more than fine.


by themselves, the two posts on the 3360 lens are not enough to keep it from wobbling. hence why the lens is often loose for the g303.
you need to have a bit of pressure between the shell and the lens. probably having screws on the pcb near the sensor/lens would be good.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> by themselves, the two posts on the 3360 lens are not enough to keep it from wobbling. hence why the lens is often loose for the g303.
> you need to have a bit of pressure between the shell and the lens. probably having screws on the pcb near the sensor/lens would be good.


Or have the bottom plate hold the lens in place like suggested in datasheets.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Hmm. Having the pcb screws being near the lens is a good idea ! I'll pass that along.

I don't think we have any rattle issues right now but I'll make sure we check.

Rajiv will be posting updates with our embedded systems/firmware engineer soon as well. On tumblr or YouTube. Good news is we got in touch with pixarts development team who gave us access to the reference design/source code for the implementation they used in their own labs for the 3360.

They used an NXP controller which is also very similar to the stm32 controller. We are going to heavily rely on the reference they are giving us since their validation procedures have already been done extensively on that design.

This will save us a lot of time which is good news. So kudos to pixart


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Or have the bottom plate hold the lens in place like suggested in datasheets.


The bottom plate already holds the lens in place but it's not enough by itself. Which is why the clamping is recommended .


----------



## qsxcv

here's a challenge for you guys
try to 8000hz reports with your mouse: http://www.overclock.net/t/1589644/usb-mouse-hard-overclocking-2000-hz/0_100#post_24852885

also, throwing this out there:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1589095/help-me-track-down-sweetlow-the-writer-of-the-1000hz-mouse-drivers/0_100
i think you guys could get a fair amount of good publicity if you help with this (or pay for all of it







), especially since sweetlow's new driver can overclock polling to 8000hz on windows8/10+microsoft xhci driver


----------



## IlIkeJuice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BubbaDubBub*
> 
> But not without 3 glaring issues. The light leaking through the side is quite annoying as this is a premium product and should have a better look. The rubber on the scroll wheel was not applied correctly as there appears to be some excess sticking up from where it seals to the wheel. And lastly my right click is significantly heavier than the left as well sound different (Which the left click is very much like an omron d2fc-f-7n in feeling), and it causes me to mess up some shots I would normally get, although I believe I could get used to it. I don't know if this will be a recurring problem with other units, but it is quite an issue that should be addressed as it should be uniform to the left click.


Basically, the same recurring issues as my ergo. The scrollwheel had some excess rubber (that I could correct myself if it bothered me), the light is the most annoying part. It's too bright, not diffused, and stays on after shutdown (USB 3 charge function that I can't seem to be able to turn off on my mobo). I don't have an issue with right click personally.

But i expected the scroll wheel rubber, and especially the annoying light to have been fixed. Basically, it seems to be an ergo with a different shell, with no change inside, which I suppose is what it is marketed at.

I'm interested in the Scream One anyway.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> Basically, the same recurring issues as my ergo. The scrollwheel had some excess rubber (that I could correct myself if it bothered me), the light is the most annoying part. It's too bright, not diffused, and stays on after shutdown (USB 3 charge function that I can't seem to be able to turn off on my mobo). I don't have an issue with right click personally.
> 
> But i expected the scroll wheel rubber, and especially the annoying light to have been fixed. Basically, it seems to be an ergo with a different shell, with no change inside, which I suppose is what it is marketed at.
> 
> I'm interested in the Scream One anyway.


I hope the Scream1 doesn't have any LEDs because they are useless and distracting to pros/competitive players.

Why can't FM get the side buttons "right"?


----------



## IlIkeJuice

I hope they got rid of the braided cable for the S1, and used a zowie-style cable instead. Thin, flexible, and light. Braided cables bring nothing to the table in my experience, apart from adding weight and 'looking pro'.

Bit late for that, and in truth I don't really care (Zowie Camade), but hey...


----------



## Oh wow Secret Cow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Apparently the general consumer only wants the sensor in the middle of the mouse. I am one of a few people who wants it as close to the scroll wheel as physically possible.


Dude... I thought I was the only one who felt this way









That's probably one of the reasons I love the WMO so much. If the ScreamOne has a sensor position like that (or close) it will be the god mouse


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oh wow Secret Cow*
> 
> Dude... I thought I was the only one who felt this way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's probably one of the reasons I love the WMO so much. If the ScreamOne has a sensor position like that (or close) it will be the god mouse


I also feel that way. Part of the reason why Alcor gives me so much control over small corrections. Hitting neary every flickshot.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We actually do plan to push the sensor position up ever so slightly on the scream one. And i mean EVER so slightly.


But why? It already looks to be quite high up in the Tournament Pro considering it has a wide butt.


----------



## reddy89

Where is Nilizum at? He seems to know the optimal sensor position based on the shape of the mouse. For the classic ergo, I believe he said it was 2-3mm below what it should be.


----------



## Jonagold

There is actually no benefit of having sensor positioning too far upfront.. I have tested it with modded mice and sensor position is mostly something that you get used to.. Having it too far up will make your wrist aiming less accurate and having it too far back will suppress the are of movement you can do purely with your wrist..

It has a huge impact on your recoil control because 99% of us are using wrist muscle-memory for that..


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> But why? It already looks to be quite high up in the Tournament Pro considering it has a wide butt.


Probably because the sensor is much smaller and there is no point of making an over-sized PCB.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reddy89*
> 
> Where is Nilizum at? He seems to know the optimal sensor position based on the shape of the mouse. For the classic ergo, I believe he said it was 2-3mm below what it should be.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> There is actually no benefit of having sensor positioning too far upfront.. I have tested it with modded mice and sensor position is mostly something that you get used to.. Having it too far up will make your wrist aiming less accurate and having it too far back will suppress the are of movement you can do purely with your wrist..
> 
> It has a huge impact on your recoil control because 99% of us are using wrist muscle-memory for that..


Isn't his suggestion purely based off a theory he has?

I rather have the sensor as far forward as the sensor being used allows. There is less movement necessary this way, which means it's faster and reduces effort throughout your play session. You can utilize more of your wrist for more consistent tracking.

http://esreality.com/post/2410040/new-gaming-mice-vps-invention-and-more

I think it's much more beneficial, in a game like GO, to have the sensor far forward. Targets are very small and players strafe constantly. The lower your sensitivity the more effort and speed is required. You might start to move your mouse to fast to properly control it when players are strafing constantly. Flick shots are much easier when you use your wrist, the same goes for controlling the recoil. Small corrections after a flick is easier when you just have to nudge the mouse a tiny distance.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I think it's much more beneficial, in a game like GO, to have the sensor far forward. Targets are very small and players strafe constantly. The lower your sensitivity the more effort and speed is required. You might start to move your mouse to fast to properly control it when players are strafing constantly. Flick shots are much easier when you use your wrist, the same goes for controlling the recoil. Small corrections after a flick is easier when you just have to nudge the mouse a tiny distance.


I heavily disagree. The higher the sensor is, the more disconnected it feels for me in-game. FK and KPM both feel this way. I have to use a lower sensitivity with those mice to feel as precise.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I heavily disagree. The higher the sensor is, the more disconnected it feels for me in-game. FK and KPM both feel this way. I have to use a lower sensitivity with those mice to feel as precise.


That's due to your habits and physical limitations.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That's down to your habits and physical limitations.


Just as your explanation is. I use both arm and the wrist to move my mouse and high up position messes up the ratio of the moved distance between arm/wrist movement since the arc gets longer. You cannot compensate this by changing sensitivity. Lower position allows me to have higher sensitivity to turn around fast with arm and still be precise with wrist pivoting. I use relatively high sensitivity with the mice where the sensor is located optimally (~30 cm/360).


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Just as your explanation is. I use both arm and the wrist to move my mouse and high up position messes up the ratio of the moved distance between arm/wrist movement since the arc gets longer. You cannot compensate this by changing sensitivity. Lower position allows me to have higher sensitivity to turn around fast with arm and still be precise with wrist pivoting. I use relatively high sensitivity with the mice where the sensor is located optimally (~30 cm/360).


I find myself subconsciously placing the sensor forward in my hand on all the mice I use. Some shapes I am fine with doing that, for others I cannot comfortably do that. When I start to land shots like I want I turn the mouse upside down to see where the sensor is, surprisingly it's basically in the same spot in my hand regardless of the mouse. I put tape at that spot to act as a "memory area," similar to how the Rival 700 does with the orange nubs.

I currently use 4.26 @ 415 CPI with my IO and 4.16 @ 425 CPI with my WMO. I was struggling with the IO because the sensor wasn't in the same spot in my hand as the WMO. I realized this later when I was experimenting with the WMO. Once I placed the IO further away from my palm I started to land shots like I do with the WMO, but the shape of the IO doesn't allow for a comfortable grip in this position. I rather use the WMO even though I want side buttons.


----------



## trism

So do I and when I feel the most control, the sensor is at around the upper pivoting point of the thumb when my thumb is straight. This is around 9 cm from my wrist pivoting point. I guess talking about this is pointless since it seems to come down to opinions anyways. I just like that the arm movement distance versus the sensor movement caused by the wrist pivot are quite close to each other.

Holy cow lower your sensitivity or get a higher CPI and compensate via the sensitivity value. You are missing headshots at long ranges with that sensitivity value. Talking about precisely tracking tiny heads when you have over 4 sensitivity is pointless.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> So do I and when I feel the most control, the sensor is at around the upper pivoting point of the thumb when my thumb is straight. This is around 9 cm from my wrist pivoting point. I guess talking about this is pointless since it seems to come down to opinions anyways. I just like that the arm movement distance versus the sensor movement caused by the wrist pivot are quite close to each other.
> 
> Holy cow lower your sensitivity or get a higher CPI and compensate via the sensitivity value. You are missing headshots at long ranges with that sensitivity value. Talking about precisely tracking tiny heads when you have over 4 sensitivity is pointless.


Read this: http://esreality.com/post/2410040/new-gaming-mice-vps-invention-and-more

I have that high of a sensitivity because I was using a 3090 FK on the native step (which is 2600 CPI). To test the WMO and IO I adjusted my sensitivity to be comparable (I also tested them on a very low sensitivity). Most gun fights don't happen at the longest ranges of the map, therefore that sensitivity value is almost irrelevant.

If FinalMouse really wanted to be fancy, they could have made a separate 3360 PCB that can be shifted up and down the mouse.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Probably because the sensor is much smaller and there is no point of making an over-sized PCB.
> 
> Isn't his suggestion purely based off a theory he has?
> 
> I rather have the sensor as far forward as the sensor being used allows. There is less movement necessary this way, which means it's faster and reduces effort throughout your play session. You can utilize more of your wrist for more consistent tracking.
> 
> http://esreality.com/post/2410040/new-gaming-mice-vps-invention-and-more
> 
> I think it's much more beneficial, in a game like GO, to have the sensor far forward. Targets are very small and players strafe constantly. The lower your sensitivity the more effort and speed is required. You might start to move your mouse to fast to properly control it when players are strafing constantly. Flick shots are much easier when you use your wrist, the same goes for controlling the recoil. Small corrections after a flick is easier when you just have to nudge the mouse a tiny distance.


You can always change the sensitivity if it is too slow for you, no reason to compromise accurate wrist control for that.. More the cross-hair moves with same wrist movement = more inaccuracy..

I think it is more important to have better accuracy in wrist movements than in whole hand movements since wrist movement is the last adjustment you do while aiming. You can always compensate poor whole hand aim by doing accurate wrist compensation before you shoot, not other way around.. So best possible accuracy for wrist movements and if you need more speed just increase sensitivity level..


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That's due to your habits and physical limitations.


We all have physical limitations at some point. There is no reason to make it more difficult for yourself to gain super fast movements, if that was the case, every pro would be using sky-high sensitivity levels..


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Just as your explanation is. I use both arm and the wrist to move my mouse and high up position messes up the ratio of the moved distance between arm/wrist movement since the arc gets longer. You cannot compensate this by changing sensitivity. Lower position allows me to have higher sensitivity to turn around fast with arm and still be precise with wrist pivoting. I use relatively high sensitivity with the mice where the sensor is located optimally (~30 cm/360).


Exactly.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> You can always change the sensitivity if it is too slow for you, no reason to compromise accurate wrist control for that.. More the cross-hair moves with same wrist movement = more inaccuracy..
> 
> I think it is more important to have better accuracy in wrist movements than in whole hand movements since wrist movement is the last adjustment you do while aiming. You can always compensate poor whole hand aim by doing accurate wrist compensation before you shoot, not other way around.. So best possible accuracy for wrist movements and if you need more speed just increase sensitivity level..


If you increase sensitivity it can ruin flick shots when set to high for your physical limitations or monitor motion blur.

I don't even pay attention to the crosshair. Once you reach a certain skill level the crosshair becomes unnecessary, it only helps you know your timing and make proper adjustments at long range. When you get good enough you can hit head shots without a crosshair on your screen.

I use my fingers for small adjustments and short tracking of targets. My wrist movements are for hitting flicks shots when opponents are running out of cover or when I am using the AWP. Arm movements are for checking spots and hitting multiple targets quickly.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> If you increase sensitivity it can ruin flick shots when set to high for your physical limitations or monitor motion blur.
> 
> I don't even pay attention to the crosshair. Once you reach a certain skill level the crosshair becomes unnecessary, it only helps you know your timing and make proper adjustments at long range. When you get good enough you can hit head shots without a crosshair on your screen.
> 
> I use my fingers for small adjustments and short tracking of targets. My wrist movements is for hitting flicks shots when opponents are running out of cover or when I am using the AWP. Arm movements are for checking spots and hitting multiple targets quickly.


I meant crosshair as your whole screen position/movement.. No, monitor motion blur has nothing to do with it.. This is conversation is going to so pseudo scientific degrees I don't even.. Again flick shoots are missed due to different muscle memory.. Just optimize your settings and then let your muscle memory to adjust itself.. You will keep coming back to that old position as long as you let your muscle memory to control your setup.. Muscle memory will follow in time if you give it time.. Sometimes it takes months.. No reason to argue things that are personal due to personal past experiences where your muscle memory was built..


----------



## trism

That thread is entirely the same type of theory what you accused Nilizum of. His videos are very inconclusive and false. In the one where he tried to prove the arm "sensitivity" is the same as wrist "sensitivity"... maybe close to it if you talk about only the one type of arm movement, the rotation from elbow vs. the rotation from the wrist. When I move my arm, the mouse doesn't really rotate at all as I don't pivot from the elbow that much, just move my entire arm. The one where he shows the deviated distance from the x-axis is false too since he is gripping the mouse wrong. If the mouse is tilted, obviously it will track like that.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I meant crosshair as your whole screen position/movement.. No, monitor motion blur has nothing to do with it.. This is conversation is going to so pseudo scientific degrees I don't even.. Again flick shoots are missed due to different muscle memory.. Just optimize your settings and then let your muscle memory to adjust itself.. You will keep coming back to that old position as long as you let your muscle memory to control your setup.. Muscle memory will follow in time if you give it time.. Sometimes it takes months.. No reason to argue things that are personal due to personal past experiences where your muscle memory was built..


I don't rely on "muscle memory," I rely on technique. Hence the statement about not needing a crosshair to hit targets. Will your "muscle memory" allow you to hit head shots with cl_drawhud 0? Sometimes I practice with cl_drawhud 0 to reinforce my technique.

Monitor motion blur can give you the wrong idea of where a player really is when your screen is moving very fast during a flick shot. That's kind of problematic for fast head shots. When you have a good monitor it really isn't a problem unless you have very unstable FPS.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> That thread is entirely the same type of theory what you accused Nilizum of..


So moving the sensor forward or back does nothing at all?

Wasn't his [Nilizum] idea that every mouse shape has to have a specific sensor position to be perfect?

That other guy is simply saying a further forward sensor position give you a larger radius. Quake players would appreciate that because they use a lot of wrist movement.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> So moving the sensor forward or back does nothing at all?
> 
> Wasn't his [Nilizum] idea that every mouse shape has to have a specific sensor position to be perfect?
> 
> That other guy is simply saying a further forward sensor position give you a larger radius. Quake players would appreciate that because they use a lot of wrist movement.


No, I meant that it's just a theory. The sensor position obviously defines how much you turn when you make the mouse travel in an arc via elbow or wrist pivoting. I personally kind of agree with Nilizum though, as I gained the most in accuracy/precision when I went from KPM/FK to Kinzuadder and Rival 100. The sensor position in Rival 100 and Kinzu looks very low but the sensors end up being at the same distance from my wrist than other mice Nilizum mentioned, mainly due to the wider butt and my grip.

But again: these are mostly opinions and based on preferences. I just hope the sensor doesn't end up locating much higher in the Scream One because the current position looks like a good compromise imo. (Most likely ending 0.5 mm - 1cm higher than in the mice I prefer since it has the wider butt and the sensor looks to be over the middle already)


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> No, I meant that it's just a theory. The sensor position obviously defines how much you turn when you make the mouse travel in an arc via elbow or wrist pivoting. I personally kind of agree with Nilizum though, as I gained the most in accuracy/precision when I went from KPM/FK to Kinzuadder and Rival 100. The sensor position in Rival 100 and Kinzu looks very low but the sensors end up being at the same distance from my wrist than other mice Nilizum mentioned, mainly due to the wider butt and my grip.
> 
> But again: these are mostly opinions and based on preferences. I just hope the sensor doesn't end up locating much higher in the Scream One because the current position looks like a good compromise imo. (Most likely ending 0.5 mm - 1cm higher than in the mice I prefer since it has the wider butt and the sensor looks to be over the middle already)


http://www.overclock.net/t/1522415/the-importance-of-sensor-positioning/0_30

Nilizum says there is a "ghost curve" that has to be accounted for with some mice.

Quote:


> The shape and butt of the mouse makes the mouse fit further away from the wrist, so the sensor position has to be calculated with the "ghost curve" in mind. Mice like the Abyssus also have a ghost curve. The Abyssus 2014 slopes has a curve, however it is still a mild ghost curve because it is a steep incline to where the mouse will fit more forward in the hand.


So every mouse "needs" to have a different sensor position. Also, how you grip the mouse will change everything.

Quote:


> It is a false belief and bad research that results in people claiming that a "centered" sensor position is a cure all, because mice have different lengths, different shapes, and different butts. Sadly life is not that easy.


Quote:


> Butt width of the mouse is also something to consider as how wide the butt of the mouse is determines how forward or under one holds the mouse via non-fingertip grip.


Some people like to have their hand ride on top of the mouse, others like to have it planted on the mouse pad. Sensor position will be different depending on where you place your hand and the shape of the mouse. That's why I don't see this concept accomplishing the intended goal for everyone.

Quote:


> So what about effort when moving the mouse with the wrist? If the reference point for maximum effort is the position of the wrist relative to the x axis denoted by our elbow joint, then what is the reference point denoted by the wrist joint? This is the most tricky part, because every holds their mouse differently, with different grip styles and different extremities of the curve at which they move their mouse.


Keep in mind he doesn't really consider that some people do change their grip and methods of movement based off the situation. For movement you can switch between using your shoulder, elbow, wrist and fingers. Your grip can change between finger tip, palm and claw based on what your opponent is doing or the weapon you're using.

I don't stick to one grip or method of movement. Whatever is necessary to land the shot I will do.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I don't rely on "muscle memory," I rely on technique. Hence the statement about not needing a crosshair to hit targets. Will your "muscle memory" allow you to hit head shots with cl_drawhud 0? Sometimes I practice with cl_drawhud 0 to reinforce my technique.
> 
> Monitor motion blur can give you the wrong idea of where a player really is when your screen is moving very fast during a flick shot. That's kind of problematic for fast head shots. When you have a good monitor it really isn't a problem unless you have very unstable FPS.
> So moving the sensor forward or back does nothing at all?
> 
> Wasn't his [Nilizum] idea that every mouse shape has to have a specific sensor position to be perfect?
> 
> That other guy is simply saying a further forward sensor position give you a larger radius. Quake players would appreciate that because they use a lot of wrist movement.


At least in csgo the duration of shots called "flick_shots" is around 10-100 ms otherwise it is aim-tracking.. Human can react around 150ms at fastest so there is no way you can do any changes to your flick-shots while you are doing it based on any blurred images..

The mechanic of flick-shot is that you see (eye) the position of the enemy and then your brain sends impulses to move certain muscles in certain orders and timings and when those impulses reach your muscles and do the job you will either hit or miss the enemy depending if you managed to send correct impulses. Correct impulses comes from your muscle memory.. Which is basically brains remembering those right impulses for certain distances you need to move to reach the target..

Tracking-aim is like doing that flick-aim over and over again and not pressing the mousebutton..

It is difficult trying to discuss with you when you have no conception of basic terminology and mechanics.. That also kind of takes away cred on anything you say, not to mention you seem to have no logic behind your opinions at all.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I try and state the wet on scale weight when I can. I had posted pictures several months back.
> 
> The hard part is that we cant just officially weigh the mice with the cable because naturally a braided cable will weigh anything down even if its hanging off a scale. So the factory does the weight prewiring and assembly.
> 
> We are putting up a specifications/comparison page soon that will have all these more detailed specs written out.
> 
> But in general you get around `~86-87 grams wet weight on the Pro, and 84-86 on the classic.
> 
> S1 was initially supposed to be heavier but we made a mistake with the PCB, it will actually be lighter than the tournament pro, since about 20% of the pcb is no longer there since no LED is necessary for the sensor.
> 
> There is a way we can cut about 5 grams off of the weight of the pro and get it down to an official 71 grams preassembly but at that point you begin sacrificing sensor performance. With the 3360 maintaining stability is very important and when you cut out too much weight then the mouse naturally starts tilting, being lifted naturally when swiped, etc....
> 
> So its actually pretty hard to go below 70 grams.


So then your company should have been listing the weights as 84-86 and 86-87 (heck go with the low number, that's fine). It's absolutely misleading to brag about your "Industry Leading Super-Lightweight" 74g mouse when you know that that's a misrepresentation compared to other companies' weight listings (who might weigh without that bit of cable inside since they're generally 2-3g less than actual rather than your 10-13g). A big reason why people have been excited about the Finalmouse offerings is because they're under the false impression that they're significantly lighter than other mice comparable in size, but that's not actually the case. No, you guys technically aren't lying, but you've been knowingly misleading and that's pretty crappy.

And as someone else mentioned you could just cut the cord off at the the mouse's exit anyway. That's the weight people want to know about.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> So then your company should have been listing the weights as 84-86 and 86-87 (heck go with the low number, that's fine). It's absolutely misleading to brag about your "Industry Leading Super-Lightweight" 74g mouse when you know that that's a misrepresentation compared to other companies' weight listings (who might weigh without that bit of cable inside since they're generally 2-3g less than actual rather than your 10-13g). A big reason why people have been excited about the Finalmouse offerings is because they're under the false impression that they're significantly lighter than other mice comparable in size, but that's not actually the case. No, you guys technically aren't lying, but you've been knowingly misleading and that's pretty crappy.
> 
> And as someone else mentioned you could just cut the cord off at the the mouse's exit anyway. That's the weight people want to know about.


Because sales will drop if they fix it. And american customers will demand refunds







i can assume

Ermagerd, it's 86 grams not 80 g or 74g I feel cheated, I'll sue.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I hope the Scream1 doesn't have any LEDs because they are useless and distracting to pros/competitive players.
> 
> Why can't FM get the side buttons "right"?


What don't you like about the side buttons ? So far early response has been pretty positive regarding the tournaments side buttons.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> What don't you like about the side buttons ? So far early response has been pretty positive regarding the tournaments side buttons.


They stick out too much from the shell. I think they stick out more than the side buttons of the Avior 7000. What happens when a left handed user wants to use the mouse?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> So then your company should have been listing the weights as 84-86 and 86-87 (heck go with the low number, that's fine). It's absolutely misleading to brag about your "Industry Leading Super-Lightweight" 74g mouse when you know that that's a misrepresentation compared to other companies' weight listings (who might weigh without that bit of cable inside since they're generally 2-3g less than actual rather than your 10-13g). A big reason why people have been excited about the Finalmouse offerings is because they're under the false impression that they're significantly lighter than other mice comparable in size, but that's not actually the case. No, you guys technically aren't lying, but you've been knowingly misleading and that's pretty crappy.
> 
> And as someone else mentioned you could just cut the cord off at the the mouse's exit anyway. That's the weight people want to know about.


I have said a while ago that the weight can't be as claimed. It isn't possible for a mouse that size to weigh so little and have side buttons. A lot of the weight comes from the PCBs. It's an obvious thing if you have used a few mice before. For a mouse to weigh in the 70g range it needs to be as small as the G100S and lack side buttons.

By the way, some mice have a ferrite inside.

This goes to show why you should ignore most of those Youtube "reviewers" who don't actually verify/test the mice they are reviewing. I don't do reviews because I can't be thorough as a review warrants -- I lack the stuff necessary and I won't spend my money to do reviews.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> They stick out too much from the shell. I think they stick out more than the side buttons of the Avior 7000. What happens when a left handed user wants to use the mouse?


It's not ambi. They needn't worry about left handers.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Button travel is a big part of the overall button feel.
And reducing the actual button size could potentially hurt the tactility/feel as well.

Also at the moment we do not market the tournament pro to left handed users since it was not designed for them.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> They stick out too much from the shell. I think they stick out more than the side buttons of the Avior 7000. What happens when a left handed user wants to use the mouse?


They better be good/creative with that ring finger so they do not accidentally press.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> It's not ambi. They needn't worry about left handers.


It's Ambi enough that a lefty will more than likely try it despite no right side 4 & 5 buttons.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> They stick out too much from the shell. I think they stick out more than the side buttons of the Avior 7000. What happens when a left handed user wants to use the mouse?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Button travel is a big part of the overall button feel.
> And reducing the actual button size could potentially hurt the tactility/feel as well.
> 
> Also at the moment we do not market the tournament pro to left handed users since it was not designed for them.


I think buttons sticking out is sort of and opinion thing. As long as they a re somewhat tactile and are not like the ergo they should great.

Any news on the scream one soooooo hyped


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> It's not ambi. They needn't worry about left handers.


What is Dazed going to do?









So left handed users shouldn't buy the Scream1 because the side buttons are on the left only? If there was side buttons on the right then they should buy it? Maybe the side buttons were meant to be on the right until they realized it was going to be too bothersome? It wouldn't have added a lot of weight to make the side button/CPI button PCB have two more switches.

From what I have seen towards the end of 2015, most pro players choose a right hand ergonomic mouse over a symmetrical mouse. I thought the FK and ZA would be more popular, but it turns out once the EC2 was updated a lot of people started using it. In other words, why release a right hand only symmetrical mouse in the first place when you could have created an IE3 shaped mouse? Scream doesn't want a symmetrical mouse, he wants a right hand ergonomic mouse. A Scream1 is pointless for Scream once the Scream2 comes out.

I would also choose an ergonomic mouse over an ambidextrous mouse if the shape was good. I only use ambidextrous mice for the ease of aligning the sensor in my hand. I like something that fills my palm, but is small in size and is lighter weight. An ambidextrous mouse needs to be larger to fill the hand, thus making it heavier.


----------



## bruzanHD

No, you are right, but knowing FM's track record, they "technically" don't need to make the shape better because it is not marketed as ambi therefore they don't need to make it ambi.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

It was marketed as ambi until we saw the missing side buttons on the opposite side, then the uproar began. lol

I get what you are saying though Bruzan.


----------



## bruzanHD

No I agree with you guys. I would personally rather have buttons on both sides, but "their pros don't need it".

Do you know what is ambi though?

W M O
M
O


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Button travel is a big part of the overall button feel.
> And reducing the actual button size could potentially hurt the tactility/feel as well.


My Zowie AM and FK buttons feel good. Those buttons don't stick out much.

The tactility comes from the hinge design, the stiffness of the plastic and the fitment of the piece that presses on the switch. How far the buttons stick out is based mostly on the hinge design and whether you want them to not be flush with the shell when pressed.


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> What is Dazed going to do?


Dazed isn't left handed..


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> Dazed isn't left handed..


I thought I heard him say he was left handed.


----------



## PU skunk

As far as weight, don't you need some to smooth out muscle impulses and such. I think that's why stylus never beat out the mouse.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I thought I heard him say he was left handed.


So am I but I use my right hand for mouse. DaZeD already did use the OG final mouse anyway.


----------



## reddy89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I thought I heard him say he was left handed.


He has his webcam mirrored and he just trolls his stream. You can tell easily, just look at his Sennheiser headset. The me mic is on his right side instead of the normal left.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Isn't his suggestion purely based off a theory he has?
> 
> I rather have the sensor as far forward as the sensor being used allows. There is less movement necessary this way, which means it's faster and reduces effort throughout your play session. You can utilize more of your wrist for more consistent tracking.
> 
> http://esreality.com/post/2410040/new-gaming-mice-vps-invention-and-more
> 
> I think it's much more beneficial, in a game like GO, to have the sensor far forward. Targets are very small and players strafe constantly. The lower your sensitivity the more effort and speed is required. You might start to move your mouse to fast to properly control it when players are strafing constantly. Flick shots are much easier when you use your wrist, the same goes for controlling the recoil. Small corrections after a flick is easier when you just have to nudge the mouse a tiny distance.


You're right in that the higher up the sensor is the less you have to physically move your mouse, but you're drawing the wrong conclusion. You actually want the opposite in GO if anything. Sure it'll be easier to track fast moving targets, but precision will be lost, making head shots harder to hit. I actually think that GO is slow compared to many other shooters such as Quake, Shootmania, ect (especially when you add in tagging). For me I just use my arm for the large quick movements and a little wrist to make the final adjustments.

The higher the sensor the better you can track fast moving enemies and the lower the sensor the better you can make minute adjustments for those pixel head shots. There is a balance between the two and I feel like Nilizum explains that extremely well in his post on the subject. There is a sweet spot (+/- a few mm) based on the shape of the mouse and having an orthodox grip.


----------



## wareya

>Sure it'll be easier to track fast moving targets, but precision will be lost

so you lower your sensitivity to make up for it

don't see what's hard about that tbh

Sensor position shall be as close to directly in the center of the fingers with which you grip the mouse or else wrist and arm movements will have a different sensitivity. Just because a lower sensitivity for finger movements is appropriate for you doesn't mean it's appropriate for everyone. I have a pure fingertip grip and play with a high-mid sensitivity and the common far-back sensor placement is absolutely frustrating for me. It's still far below my grip fingers (my thumb and ring finger) on every single mouse I have ever used. Moving it forwards 5mm would make me very happy.


----------



## reddy89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >Sure it'll be easier to track fast moving targets, but precision will be lost
> 
> so you lower your sensitivity to make up for it
> 
> don't see what's hard about that tbh
> 
> Sensor position shall be as close to directly in the center of the fingers with which you grip the mouse or else wrist and arm movements will have a different sensitivity. Just because a lower sensitivity for finger movements is appropriate for you doesn't mean it's appropriate for everyone. I have a pure fingertip grip and play with a high-mid sensitivity and the common far-back sensor placement is absolutely frustrating for me. It's still far below my grip fingers (my thumb and ring finger) on every single mouse I have ever used. Moving it forwards 5mm would make me very happy.


I don't really want to get into a debate/argument and is the reason I really refrain from posting on here. But I'll just say that changing sensitivity will not remedy bad sensor position.

Finalmouse pretty much gets it spot on with the position. Just needs to be 2-3mm higher, at least on the classic ergo. Assuming the sensor position on the tournament pro is the same spot as the ergo, moving it up ever so slightly as Jude alluded to for the S1 would make it perfect in that regard.


----------



## trism

> I have a pure fingertip grip and play with a high-mid sensitivity and the common far-back sensor placement is absolutely frustrating for me. It's still far below my grip fingers (my thumb and ring finger) on every single mouse I have ever used. Moving it forwards 5mm would make me very happy.

What's the length of your hand (and your fingers)? I tried finger-tip gripping G303 by placing the sensor in-between those two fingers and I end up almost palming/clawing it. My palm area touches the mouse from the side. If it'd be 5 mm higher I'd be palming it. Rival 100 is much better in this regard since it leaves much more space for me to actually pull the mouse towards my palm. My hand is 18.5 cm and my fingers are probably 45% of that. Maybe the G303 shape is quite bad for this.


----------



## wareya

My "problem" is my ring finger is super long so I have to scrunch it really hard to put its contact area directly in line with the sensor and my thumb, no matter what mouse I've used so far. The FM 2015 was the closest, but not actually far forwards enough imo.


----------



## TriviumKM

"I tried finger-tip gripping G303 by placing the sensor in-between those two fingers and I end up almost palming/clawing it. My palm area touches the mouse from the side. If it'd be 5 mm higher I'd be palming it. Rival 100 is much better in this regard since it leaves much more space for me to actually pull the mouse towards my palm. My hand is 18.5 cm and my fingers are probably 45% of that. Maybe the G303 shape is quite bad for this."

This is why i've been saying the g303 is not a fingertip mouse, more of a claw or claw/palm. The aggressive sides force you to hold it further up than one would like for pure fingertip.

I'm waiting for someone who uses pure fingertip to give their impressions on the new Finalmouse shape wise.


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Tournament pros will be available tonight from what I am hearing.
> 
> 1000hz does give a different feel for me and others we have talked to. For the s1 we are developing the firmware from the ground up and we are setting the polling rate to a fixed 1000hz.
> 
> This is actually convenient for the 3360 because I believe a lot of the sensors timings are at default 1ms. Not sure on the specifics just what I heard.
> 
> Also at the moment we are developing a debounce logic for the buttons which we hope will be very low latency. Had a question for the community:
> 
> "Is there a preferable debounce count?"
> 
> Thought I would forward that.


Almost all logitech mice are miles ahead of the rest of the industry in terms of click latency. Anything near logitechs level and I'll be very very happy. The only other popular mice that come close to that are a few steelseries ones (ikari, xai/sensei with smoothing set to 0). If the s1 can have the same click latency as say a g303 or a g402 or 502 without developing double clicking issues as quickly as deathadders seem to, that will be a major plus.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

^ The current ergo and pro already have very good button logic and click latency. Nearly identical to the brand you mentioned.

We hope to get our new button logic to be even faster


----------



## Kyube

Could anyone provide us with Tournament Pro, WMO and IO side by side comparisons?


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> ^ The current ergo and pro already have very good button logic and click latency. Nearly identical to the brand you mentioned.
> 
> We hope to get our new button logic to be even faster


Really nice. I asked a question a few pages back, you might have missed it so I'll ask it again.

How does your 3 year warranty work for people outside US? I'm from India and plan on getting the s1 as soon as its launched. Will I still be covered by warranty? Also, do you have any plans of releasing your products in India in the near future? Right now, the ergo from amazon will cost me 100$ including shipping and customs.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Yes the warranty covers manufacturer defect for all original owners regardless of location for 3 years.

We are going to start distributing globally to retailers fairly soon, but it's a big endeavor so there may be delays.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> It's not ambi. They needn't worry about left handers.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> They better be good/creative with that ring finger so they do not accidentally press.
> It's Ambi enough that a lefty will more than likely try it despite no right side 4 & 5 buttons.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Also at the moment we do not market the tournament pro to left handed users since it was not designed for them.


Is this guy left handed?





Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> >Sure it'll be easier to track fast moving targets, but precision will be lost
> 
> so you lower your sensitivity to make up for it
> 
> don't see what's hard about that tbh


People have bad habits and physical limitations. Rather than improve they rely on other things.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> People have bad habits and physical limitations. Rather than improve they rely on other things.


Improve != change to something else. There is nothing that makes higher up sensor position better for everyone... It's all preference, so we should stop arguing about it.

Also, why do that when you can buy a mouse with a lower positioned sensor? Just put a higher sensitivity if the sensor position seems too low for you. I don't see the difference in this analogy vs. the one suggested by wareya. There is no perfect grip, no perfect sensitivity and no perfect sensor position.

edit: removed parts to stop this nonsense...


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Improve != change to something else. There is nothing that makes higher up sensor position better for everyone... It's all preference, so we should stop arguing about it.
> 
> Also, why do that when you can buy a mouse with a lower positioned sensor? Just put a higher sensitivity if the sensor position seems too low for you. I don't see the difference in this analogy vs. the one suggested by wareya. There is no perfect grip, no perfect sensitivity and no perfect sensor position.
> 
> edit: removed parts to stop this nonsense...


Increasing sensitivity is more detrimental than decreasing it.

Also, some people play games that utilize mostly wrist movements. Hence why they like the WMO more than other mice.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> *Holy cow lower your sensitivity or get a higher CPI and compensate via the sensitivity value. You are missing headshots at long ranges with that sensitivity value. Talking about precisely tracking tiny heads when you have over 4 sensitivity is pointless*.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Increasing sensitivity is more detrimental than decreasing it. Also, some people play games that utilize mostly wrist movements.


Not really in this case, unless you are going too high with the sensitivity value.

People who utilize only wrist movements do not really matter... You can just raise/lower the sensitivity based on how far it is. You can't compensate the arc vs lateral sensitivity preference mismatch via a sensitivity change.

All current mice let you utilize CPI well. Don't know why you quoted that part.


----------



## wareya

Can compensate for it with mouse acceleration


----------



## reddy89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> You can't compensate the arc vs lateral sensitivity preference mismatch via a sensitivity change.


That's what I was getting at. You explained it much better. No sensitivity change is going to remedy this. Some people just don't understand and just be thankful they are not the ones creating the mice







.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Can compensate for it with mouse acceleration


Not exactly the same...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reddy89*
> 
> That's what I was getting at. You explained it much better. No sensitivity change is going to remedy this. Some people just don't understand and just be thankful they are not the ones creating the mice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Are you ignoring Nilizum statements in the thread he made about the subject?

If I can comfortably grip a mouse where the sensor is where I like then I don't have much of an issue with placement, but not all mice are comfortable when doing this. I have been trying to put the sensor closer to my finger tips since 1999. My play style leans more to mice like the WMO, Diamondback and AM/FK/ZA -- mice which people dislike because they don't have "perfect" sensor placement.

I guess you can be thankful that people who don't play games seriously are creating your tools for you.


----------



## reddy89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Not exactly the same...
> Are you ignoring Nilizum statements in the thread he made about the subject?
> 
> If I can comfortably grip a mouse where the sensor is where I like then I don't have much of an issue with placement, but not all mice are comfortable when doing this. I have been trying to put the sensor closer to my finger tips since 1999. My play style leans more to mice like the WMO, Diamondback and AM/FK/ZA -- mice which people dislike because they don't have "perfect" sensor placement.
> 
> I guess you can be thankful that people who don't play games seriously are creating your tools for you.


I like to palm my mice. I can't really palm a mouse with abnormal sensor positions and have it be comfortable to me. Fingertip users can much more easily adapt. That's why I said orthodox grip. Why cater to a grip style that can much more easily adapt to different shapes/sensor positions?

And I'm not saying it has to be absolutely perfect. I'm just talking about mice that have their sensor positions at the extremes (WMO/Zowie Mice/Steelseries Mice). The current Finalmouses (Finalmice? lol), have their positions not perfect but enough to be able to compensate with a palm grip. But if they're taking the time to revise that position, might as well get as close to optimal as possible, for as many people as possible, which looks like what they are doing.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> > I have a pure fingertip grip and play with a high-mid sensitivity and the common far-back sensor placement is absolutely frustrating for me. It's still far below my grip fingers (my thumb and ring finger) on every single mouse I have ever used. Moving it forwards 5mm would make me very happy.
> 
> What's the length of your hand (and your fingers)? I tried finger-tip gripping G303 by placing the sensor in-between those two fingers and I end up almost palming/clawing it. My palm area touches the mouse from the side. If it'd be 5 mm higher I'd be palming it. Rival 100 is much better in this regard since it leaves much more space for me to actually pull the mouse towards my palm. My hand is 18.5 cm and my fingers are probably 45% of that. Maybe the G303 shape is quite bad for this.


That's weird I just tried holding mine that way and my palm is nowhere near the mouse lol. And here I was thinking I only had slightly larger than average hands


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reddy89*
> 
> I like to palm my mice. I can't really palm a mouse with abnormal sensor positions and have it be comfortable to me. Fingertip users can much more easily adapt. That's why I said orthodox grip. Why cater to a grip style that can much more easily adapt to different shapes/sensor positions?
> 
> And I'm not saying it has to be absolutely perfect. I'm just talking about mice that have their sensor positions at the extremes (WMO/Zowie Mice/Steelseries Mice). The current Finalmouses (Finalmice? lol), have their positions not perfect but enough to be able to compensate with a palm grip. But if they're taking the time to revise that position, might as well get as close to optimal as possible, for as many people as possible, which looks like what they are doing.


I like to lay my fingers on a comfortable button position before I adjust the mouse towards my palm. Some mice won't touch my palm when I do this.

The Zowie FK2 doesn't touch my palm much when my fingers are in a good position for me. The IO touches my palm before I can get my fingers where I want them. The WMO could be 1-2mm shorter in height and have longer buttons to be ideal for me, but I can use it fine as is. Overall, I prefer the Diamondback arch and button length

Some mice have short buttons or buttons that are very stiff towards the middle of the mouse. When I want to position the sensor further away from my wrist I have issues with the button length or stiffness. The FM TP has longer buttons than the WMO, that should be good for me considering the sensor position on the TP is a lot further back than the WMO.

By the way, I don't solely think sensor placement is about aiming. I like lighter weight PCBs and the weight balance to be further forward. Naturally when you shrink the PCB the sensor is going to be further forward. I like the weight to be forward because I don't stress my palm as much when lifting (as the mouse will naturally tilt against my palm, making it easier to hold) and it's easier for me to control when using my finger tips.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

After getting home & cutting open my amazon package, i finally got to the mouse. The black box it comes in i like a bit more than the white one used for the ergo, though that matters not.

Alright, now to the juicy stuff(Giggity). The mouse is amazing thus far, m1&2 feel great, even better than the ergo to me. The side buttons are my favorite of any mouse i have ever used, right in line with the deathadders, the placement is great as well.

The shape is just right, idk why but is is, now as i have said before i have a 21.5 cm claw on me. The Fm 2015/16 Ergo is great but my fingers hang over BY A LOT, especially my middle finger. For the Tournament Pro only a smidgen hangs over, not enough at all to bother.

The dimensions work very well for me, no cramps of any sort while playing for 3-4 hours this session. My ring & pinky fit & sit comfortably without any grip adjustments needed.

I have never held a WMO, but if it's anything like this i can say i understand why it's loved.

The sensor is nice & responsive, snappy & it has served well thus far. It feels great in game just as expected.

NOW my issue or issues, the darn braided cord is stiff as idk what. That i can deal with, however i thought my mouse feet were scraping the pad, upon further expection i realized it's the cord from the front end of the mouse on the pad, this i do not like. On the Rival it has a little rubber thing around the cord & it sits off the pad. The FM Ergo's cord has a great position, it sits off of the pad because it is centered. Idk if anyone else has this issue at all, if so let me know.

I have only had that issue along with one sensor spin out during game. Besides the stated issues, the mouse is just amazing in hand, FM did an amaIng job. I will try to post pics of the cord making contact with my pad as i described. I will keep playing later today with it & try to see if my sensor spins out in game again as it did, if it does happen a couple more times i will be forced to return it.

Edit:image of the Ergo, then TP cord differences as far as placement.





Last pic shows(as best as i could capture), it contacts the pad in a sort of bent fashion. Can be quite loud during swiping sessions, combined with the cord stiffness may annoy others, if they come across these issues.

All in all the mouse is still immaculent. More testing ahead, gotta see if the sensor goes dumb again or if it's a super rarity.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> After getting home & cutting open my amazon package, i finally got to the mouse. The black box it comes in i like a bit more than the white one used for the ergo, though that matters not.
> 
> Alright, now to the juicy stuff(Giggity). The mouse is amazing thus far, m1&2 feel great, even better than the ergo to me. The side buttons are my favorite of any mouse i have ever used, right in line with the deathadders, the placement is great as well.
> 
> The shape is just right, idk why but is is, now as i have said before i have a 21.5 cm claw on me. The Fm 2015/16 Ergo is great but my fingers hang over BY A LOT, especially my middle finger. For the Tournament Pro only a smidgen hangs over, not enough at all to bother.
> 
> The dimensions work very well for me, no cramps of any sort while playing for 3-4 hours this session. My ring & pinky fit & sit comfortably without any grip adjustments needed.
> 
> I have never held a WMO, but if it's anything like this i can say i understand why it's loved.
> 
> The sensor is nice & responsive, snappy & it has served well thus far. It feels great in game just as expected.
> 
> NOW my issue or issues, the darn braided cord is stiff as idk what. That i can deal with, however i thought my mouse feet were scraping the pad, upon further expection i realized it's the cord from the front end of the mouse on the pad, this i do not like. On the Rival it has a little rubber thing around the cord & it sits off the pad. The FM Ergo's cord has a great position, it sits off of the pad because it is centered. Idk if anyone else has this issue at all, if so let me know.
> 
> I have only had that issue along with one sensor spin out during game. Besides the stated issues, the mouse is just amazing in hand, FM did an amaIng job. I will try to post pics of the cord making contact with my pad as i described. I will keep playing later today with it & try to see if my sensor spins out in game again as it did, if it does happen a couple more times i will be forced to return it.


Now that I've established that the side coating is textured and similar to ZA series - how does that deal with sweat? Does it stay sticky/grimey? I don't mean visually but when you touch it. Soft touch coating / matte texturized plastic react very differently to wet sweat than for example UV coating or like the EC-A coating. The latter 2 are not good imho.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Now that I've established that the side coating is textured and similar to ZA series - how does that deal with sweat? Does it stay sticky/grimey? I don't mean visually but when you touch it. Soft touch coating / matte texturized plastic react very differently to wet sweat than for example UV coating or like the EC-A coating. The latter 2 are not good imho.


So far it's ok to me, a good whipe cleans it up pretty easily(not 100% but close enough). So far no grime or anything, i haven't had it long enough for it to get grimey yet. Prints are left quickly, which i could care less about. Once i play more & get it broken in i can see how it feels as far as sweat & grime.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> So far it's ok to me, a good whipe cleans it up pretty easily(not 100% but close enough). So far no grime or anything, i haven't had it long enough for it to get grimey yet. Prints are left quickly, which i could care less about. Once i play more & get it broken in i can see how it feels as far as sweat & grime.


Nice. Well please let me know. I have sweaty hands, so I also don't care about how it looks visually.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Nice. Well please let me know. I have sweaty hands, so I also don't care about how it looks visually.


give this a shot. apply to hands, never sweat again

http://www.londondrugs.com/drysol-antiperspirant-solution---37.5ml/L8737611.html


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> give this a shot. apply to hands, never sweat again
> 
> http://www.londondrugs.com/drysol-antiperspirant-solution---37.5ml/L8737611.html


Lol. Perhaps.

I'm in EU though.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Lol. Perhaps.
> 
> I'm in EU though.


try Certain-Dri then, looks like it's available in the EU - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Certain-Dri-Anti-Perspirant-Prescription-Strength/dp/B000052X8R

don't laugh. you'll apply it twice and never sweat from your hands again, and you'll only have to apply it once a month (if that). try to find the liquid one that's in a bottle with a dabber. it's literally wizard magic


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I like to lay my fingers on a comfortable button position before I adjust the mouse towards my palm. Some mice won't touch my palm when I do this.
> 
> The Zowie FK2 doesn't touch my palm much when my fingers are in a good position for me. The IO touches my palm before I can get my fingers where I want them. The WMO could be 1-2mm shorter in height and have longer buttons to be ideal for me, but I can use it fine as is. Overall, I prefer the Diamondback arch and button length
> 
> Some mice have short buttons or buttons that are very stiff towards the middle of the mouse. When I want to position the sensor further away from my wrist I have issues with the button length or stiffness. The FM TP has longer buttons than the WMO, that should be good for me considering the sensor position on the TP is a lot further back than the WMO.
> 
> By the way, I don't solely think sensor placement is about aiming. I like lighter weight PCBs and the weight balance to be further forward. Naturally when you shrink the PCB the sensor is going to be further forward. I like the weight to be forward because I don't stress my palm as much when lifting (as the mouse will naturally tilt against my palm, making it easier to hold) and it's easier for me to control when using my finger tips.


Just make your own mouse, Ideal for you would be g303 internals placed in that shell you prefer.. G303 intrenals have sensor close to switches so when you put PCB inside an average shell when switches line up with Shell buttons the sensor will end up almost under the scrollwheel..

I takes like 3-6 hours for me to make one.. You need to use knife to modify some plastic and strong glue to glue the PCB in place.. sometimes you need to glue plastic together to make certain shapes or holdings for the PCB and when you rip off the g303 scrollwheel you need to glue it in the shell using long plastic shapes and get it on the right position before the glue dries..

Here is my g303 internals put in a shell of a cheap Steelseries Sensei -looking shell.. I had the scroll-wheel installed earlier but the sensor was too far up and I had to move it closer to the bottom and then the scroll-wheel placing wouldn't line up any more.. And the weight is around 65-70 grams.. I emptied the shell of any unnecessary things and there is no scrollwheel, with scrollwheel probably like 5 grams more..


----------



## pixie99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*


How does the weight feel compared to the ergo Fm?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pixie99*
> 
> How does the weight feel compared to the ergo Fm?


Weight is a breeze, it's not too light at all really. Hard for me personally to tell which is heavier without one of each in the hands. You can whip it across the pad like nuthin'.


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Weight is a breeze, it's not too light at all really. Hard for me personally to tell which is heavier without one of each in the hands. You can whip it across the pad like nuthin'.


so it is light? it was advertised at 75g which is the same as the ergo, if its any heavier im going to be heated...


----------



## FinalmouseJude

@phizaroah

Your cable is bent and out of place and it is not intended to be like this. If you can't snap it back into place please contact support .


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> so it is light? it was advertised at 75g which is the same as the ergo, if its any heavier im going to be heated...


It's about 86 grams actually. Photo posted in another thread. Ergo was 87 or something.

Basically both weigh close to the g303.


----------



## trhead

Human hands can't detect less than ~90g anyway. 86g should be low enough for anybody

*/s*


----------



## reddy89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Human hands can't detect less than ~90g anyway. 86g should be low enough for anybody
> 
> */s*


That's not true. I can tell the difference between let's say a FK1 and a FK2 (I have both). And if you ever used the original Abyssus which is like 70g, that feels even lighter.

If they can make the S1 closer to 80g that would be awesome, but not necessary. Like you said, I think 86g is plenty light enough.


----------



## a5page

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trhead*
> 
> Human hands can't detect less than ~90g anyway. 86g should be low enough for anybody
> 
> */s*


LOL; Your the same guy who says we cant tell the difference between 60 and 120hz monitors


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reddy89*
> 
> That's not true. I can tell the difference between let's say a FK1 and a FK2 (I have both). And if you ever used the original Abyssus which is like 70g, that feels even lighter.
> 
> If they can make the S1 closer to 80g that would be awesome, but not necessary. Like you said, I think 86g is plenty light enough.


/s = sarcasm


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

50g mice when?!?


----------



## reddy89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> /s = sarcasm


Ahh. Well now don't I feel stupid haha.


----------



## trhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reddy89*
> 
> Ahh. Well now don't I feel stupid haha.


----------



## daunow

Probably the only reason I loved my kinzu so much even tough it had mouse acceleration, now I can't even use it.. the acceleration is just to noticeable, I still love the weight and shape...


----------



## discoprince

just got mine

shape is great, weight is *ok* - still wish it was lighter. seems well balanced.
M1 and M2 button clicks feel great, i like them better than the ergo.
coating is really great the top rubber is like the ergos but im realling digging the plastic on the sides. the side plastic feels like the ninox aurora side plastic but more smooth.
side buttons are an improvement over the ergo but they still suck, someone said they are like the DA side buttons. the DA side buttons are my favorite side buttons of all time, the ones on the tournament pro dont even come close.
the led shines nice and bright but like with the ergo it stays on after pc is off/it shines through gaps in the side buttons/QC issue with a piece of rubber missing from coating (as seen below) and ive seen other QC issues as well.
got stickers this time! two of them! i love stickers, didnt get any with the classic ergo.
overall its my new daily driver (replacing the FM classic ergo)


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> just got mine
> 
> [*] side buttons are an improvement over the ergo but they still suck, someone said they are like the DA side buttons. the DA side buttons are my favorite side buttons of all time, the ones on the tournament pro dont even come close.
> 
> [*] got stickers this time! two of them! i love stickers, didnt get any with the classic ergo.
> [/LIST]
> 
> overall its my new daily driver (replacing the FM classic ergo)


I said that about the side buttons, i love them. I still like em on day 2.

You like the stickers? Lol i didn't expect to read that, i'm gonna give em to my niece.

Edit: i have not had another sensor spin out yet, so maybe it was just a random occurence of some sort, hopefully it stays that way.


----------



## mksteez

Anyone have a comparison picture of the Pro next to an FK1?


----------



## discoprince

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mksteez*
> 
> Anyone have a comparison picture of the Pro next to an FK1?


----------



## wmoftw

stop getting me so excited


----------



## TriviumKM

Isn't the FK1 128mm? If so then the FMT is not 126mm as it's longer than the FK1.

Edit: I bet they took the length measurement from where the cord inserts into the mouse instead of measuring from the tip of the buttons.


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> Isn't the FK1 128mm? If so then the FMT is not 126mm as it's longer than the FK1.
> 
> Edit: I bet they took the length measurement from where the cord inserts into the mouse instead of measuring from the tip of the buttons.


It's kinda hard to measure the length of something with buttons as severely slanted as the tourney pro. You could measure from those inner tips, but that's kind of an artificial length since I don't think anyone would be clicking from there. Presumably most people click from the middle of the button, and if you compare the middle of the button for each mouse the FK1 seems a tad longer.


----------



## TriviumKM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> It's kinda hard to measure the length of something with buttons as severely slanted as the tourney pro. You could measure from those inner tips, but that's kind of an artificial length since I don't think anyone would be clicking from there. Presumably most people click from the middle of the button, and if you compare the middle of the button for each mouse the FK1 seems a tad longer.


I see what you're saying, but even then they would be about equal as the FM is actually hanging a bit more off of the mousepad than the FK1 in that pic.


----------



## natshuba

ended up trying the mouse and it works great, a quick question though did I get a defective mouse? My mouse4 button doesn't give that 'tactile' feedback that the ergo did, and the mouse5 is fine is anyone else with this problem?


----------



## wareya

Contact support.


----------



## auzcar

Is there any way to get the Tournament Pro if you live in Sweden?


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auzcar*
> 
> Is there any way to get the Tournament Pro if you live in Sweden?


Not yet, the FM Tournament Pro will be coming to EU/UK Amazon stores in the next 7-14 days and then outside of that International shipments via: Amazon are also being worked on, so hopefully we should be able to order some time soon, waiting sucks. :{


----------



## micehunter

Damn! International shipment via amazon?. That will surely cost a lot to be shipped here in Asia, not to mention how long that will take.. Now I'm sad. Hey Jude is there any Asian countries that the FM will be available?.


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *micehunter*
> 
> Damn! International shipment via amazon?. That will surely cost a lot to be shipped here in Asia, not to mention how long that will take.. Now I'm sad. Hey Jude is there any Asian countries that the FM will be available?.


Guessing you guys don't have prime over there? how much is the ship+product for you as of right now?


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daunow*
> 
> Guessing you guys don't have prime over there? how much is the ship+product for you as of right now?


Unfortunately, Prime doesn't carry over from account to account. Your account will carry over, but if you have Amazon Prime for England, you will not have it for Amazon US and so on. It's a pretty shoddy service, but they've got to make their money some how!

Personally, I was tempted to buy it from the US and get it shipped over like I did last time, but that's not available on Amazon at this moment in time, but I think this time around, I'm just going to wait for it to become available in England and then just take it from there.


----------



## micehunter

I don't have any idea as to how much that is. I'll ask my brother later. I really want to get my hands on the tourney pro and the scream1..But If FM won't be available here, then I might just get the g303 or ZA12 instead. Living in a third world country is really depressing. ....*sigh*


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*


Now that's one ugly mouse.


----------



## kashim

then build quality and sensor performance are better then the old?scream one have 3360 right?


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> Now that's one ugly mouse.


Elaborate?


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Elaborate?


The new FM look pretty ugly to me, specially the side buttons.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> The new FM look pretty ugly to me, specially the side buttons.


Looks has 0 value to me in a mouse, I am all for the functionality.. Only after I have the best functional mouse that I am happy with in my hand I would start thinking about looks..


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> Looks has 0 value to me in a mouse, I am all for the functionality.. Only after I have the best functional mouse that I am happy with in my hand I would start thinking about looks..


Same. Tbh, most mice look ugly. But that's just how it is.


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Same. Tbh, most mice look ugly. But that's just how it is.


waiting scream one


----------



## Dreyka

Why do you think that so much of gaming mouse marketing is borrowed from cars. People care about their mouse looking cool and there are sadly plenty of people on this forum complaining that a mouse doesn't look "office" enough. I just can't stand the snobs here who look done on people for liking christmas tree mice while celebrating a boring office silver/black appearance. You are both judging a mouse based on personal aesthetic preference and there is no correct answer. But this forum is filled with immature people who state their preference as if it is objective fact.

Logitech mice look like they do because that is what their market research says the market wants. Personally, if it performs great, in a shape I like and doesn't weigh a lot then I'm happy. I'll just turn the LEDs off and continue on with my day because a mouse is just a tool. Being functional is what matters.

The fact that Finalmouse with their Ultra esportz super gaming marketing have a white LED in their mouse speaks volumes about what the market wants. At least Zowie moved away from LEDs except in the EC series out of pure laziness because they didn't want to redesign the PCB for an LED CPI indicator underneath the mouse. The fact that Finalmouse has a braided cable even though the majority here dislike braided cables just shows how even they must balance marketability to a wider audience along side a whiny enthusiast niche.


----------



## wareya

Yes, FM is a marketing masterpiece. Now if only they could work on not lying.


----------



## Zibv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Yes, FM is a marketing masterpiece. Now if only they could work on not lying.


I can't believe how easily they lie about the small things like weight, hertz options, firmware, shell flaws, etc.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> The new FM look pretty ugly to me, specially the side buttons.


Oh you not really a fan? I'm a big fan of the improvements and with me using the FM 2015 as my primary mouse, very eager to try out the new changes.

And also, why are so many people against braided cables? I've used both (FM and FK1) and I've not really noticed a difference either way, but maybe that's because I use a mouse bungee.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zibv*
> 
> I can't believe how easily they lie about the small things like weight, hertz options, firmware, shell flaws, etc.


How else would they have been able to sell a combined sum og generic OEM parts for a mega inflated price of $70?

Or maybe the sticker over Motospeed's logo was worth that much.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Oh you not really a fan? I'm a big fan of the improvements and with me using the FM 2015 as my primary mouse, very eager to try out the new changes.
> 
> And also, why are so many people against braided cables? I've used both (FM and FK1) and I've not really noticed a difference either way, but maybe that's because I use a mouse bungee.


I use a mouse bungie as well, however the issue mainly was that my TP cord was screwed over, now that it's fixed i have no issues with it.

However i have been running the TP plenty, i don't think i prefer it over my Classic ergo. Things i do prefer that the TP has..

1) Quality feeling, it seriously feels light years better than the ergo(though my 2016 seems to be quite nice & i have had 0 issues).

2) The side buttons, i LOVE them, i am so ready for them to update & toss the new buttons on the ergo. I am already tired of waiting.

Overall i still prefer the ergo, it reminds me of the G400 i first had, i seem to like thumb indents for grip. I even aim better with the ergo, i like the slightly lighter clicks for fps(mainly for burst weapons).


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Yes, FM is a marketing masterpiece. Now if only they could work on not lying.


Just realized today that there are similarities to Dharmapoint's marketing. They had a fire sale of their last remaining stock on December 31.


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Unfortunately, Prime doesn't carry over from account to account. Your account will carry over, but if you have Amazon Prime for England, you will not have it for Amazon US and so on. It's a pretty shoddy service, but they've got to make their money some how!
> 
> Personally, I was tempted to buy it from the US and get it shipped over like I did last time, but that's not available on Amazon at this moment in time, but I think this time around, I'm just going to wait for it to become available in England and then just take it from there.


Dam.. just literally order a G303 today and is arriving today, prime is such a beautiful thing...


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

I also would like to know if FM plans to drop the 3360 in the classic ergo(when they re-do the side buttons & stuff).


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daunow*
> 
> Dam.. just literally order a G303 today and is arriving today, prime is such a beautiful thing...


I was tempted to get the G303 myself, but I just don't like the shape of it, so I think I'm going to give it a miss. I think I'll just wait for the TP, I don't mind waiting, I've got my trusty Ergo 2015 next to me, so it's all good.


----------



## popups

Spoiler: Dreyka



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Why do you think that so much of gaming mouse marketing is borrowed from cars. People care about their mouse looking cool and there are sadly plenty of people on this forum complaining that a mouse doesn't look "office" enough. I just can't stand the snobs here who look done on people for liking christmas tree mice while celebrating a boring office silver/black appearance. You are both judging a mouse based on personal aesthetic preference and there is no correct answer. But this forum is filled with immature people who state their preference as if it is objective fact.
> 
> Logitech mice look like they do because that is what their market research says the market wants. Personally, if it performs great, in a shape I like and doesn't weigh a lot then I'm happy. I'll just turn the LEDs off and continue on with my day because a mouse is just a tool. Being functional is what matters.
> 
> The fact that Finalmouse with their _Ultra esportz super gaming_ marketing have a white LED in their mouse speaks volumes about what the market wants. At least Zowie moved away from LEDs except in the EC series out of pure laziness because they didn't want to redesign the PCB for an LED CPI indicator underneath the mouse. The fact that Finalmouse has a braided cable even though the majority here dislike braided cables just shows how even they must balance marketability to a wider audience along side a whiny enthusiast niche.






Straight up ignoring the consequences of designing for aesthetics.

LEDs can: be distracting, add weight, increase hand temperature, degrade performance, change balance, increase cost, etc.

Certain angles and edges chosen for aesthetics can make a mouse uncomfortable. The "fancier" the design the more likely it will weigh more. Some materials chosen for aesthetics can reduce durability and grip.

When a mouse is designed as a tool rather than a "toy" it will end up looking very boring and "cheap" to people who don't think "gaming" mice should be about performance first.

*Update*: I seen this today after looking up pictures of the IE3.

Quote:


> 『ZOWIE GEAR』 のゲーミングギアはカジュアルなゲーマーのためのものではなく、真剣なゲーマーのためのものです。私たちの製品全ては、真剣なゲーマーだけのために作っています。
> 
> 例として、彼ら(SpawN、HeatoN)がどのようにしてゲーミングマウスを選んだか説明しましょう。SpawN、君がゲーミングマウスを選ぶ時に一番優先する事は?
> 
> ■ *SpawN*
> 1 番目は持ちやすさや使いやすさなどが快適であること。2 番目はパフォーマンス、そして安定性です。
> 
> ■ *Vincent*
> これを多くのノンゲーマーがマウスを購入する時に優先する項目と比較してみましょう。
> 
> *Gamers*
> 
> Comfort - 快適であること(持ちやすさ)
> Performance - パフォーマンス
> Stability - 安定性
> 
> *Non-Gamers*
> 
> Price - 価格
> Function - 機能
> Spec - スペック
> Looks - ルックス


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> increase hand temperature,


the led has to be wayyyy too bright for that to be any sort of issue
Quote:


> degrade performance


if whoever wrote the firmware can't make controlling the led's not affect performance, then the firmware is almost certainly garbage in the first place.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> the led has to be wayyyy too bright for that to be any sort of issue


I don't currently own mice with an LED logo.

I heard people complain about (some) mice causing their palm to become sweaty because of the LED. I guess that would be relative to not having the LED on.


----------



## Dylan Nails

not going to buy scream one if an LED is forced on it with no option to disable it, let alone a software that actually lets you use the 50 increment dpi steps


----------



## equlix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> if whoever wrote the firmware can't make controlling the led's not affect performance, then the firmware is almost certainly garbage in the first place.


_cough_steelseries_cough_


----------



## jtl999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *equlix*
> 
> _cough_steelseries_cough_


_cough_razer mamba_cough_


----------



## Alya

I mean, the Hori Edge randomly screws itself with the LEDs enabled so I'm gonna go ahead and say it's just garbage. Hope the AM I got cheap doesn't force me back to my Edge.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I don't currently own mice with an LED logo.
> 
> I heard people complain about (some) mice causing their palm to become sweaty because of the LED. I guess that would be relative to not having the LED on.


LEDs are so efficient and use such little power that there is no way it's going to warm up your hand.

Sharp angles may affect the comfort but it may not. You can't conclusively argue one way or the other as everyone has a unique hand shape/size there are plenty of people who complain about shapes that others love.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> I mean, the Hori Edge randomly screws itself with the LEDs enabled so I'm gonna go ahead and say it's just garbage. Hope the AM I got cheap doesn't force me back to my Edge.


Turn them off then.


----------



## wmoftw

lol @ LED whine. it's imposible for a mouse led to make your hand sweat. how can people write off a mouse because of one LED? people wonder why they can't find a mouse they like


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> lol @ LED whine. it's imposible for a mouse led to make your hand sweat. how can people write off a mouse because of one LED? people wonder why they can't find a mouse they like


That's what I heard before.

I haven't bought a mouse with a LED logo that I couldn't turn off. I don't plan on buying a mouse like that either. Hopefully, the Scream mice don't have LEDs you can't turn off.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> lol @ LED whine. it's imposible for a mouse led to make your hand sweat. how can people write off a mouse because of one LED? people wonder why they can't find a mouse they like


Happens with cm storm Alcor. No way to turn it off + bad materials result in a bad experience. Sick shape though. The led was very noticeably warmer. Just used my pliers on it.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Just an update, Finalmouse is now available for order on the UK Amazon, so just ordered mine.









Enjoy!


----------



## Klopfer

I hoped Scream will be using maybe "his" Scream1 at gameshow cup , but it looks like he is using classic Shaped FM and not the Tournament Pro Ambi Shape ...
http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/7599-full/1454696117.3054.jpeg
http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/7599-full/1454699632.1085.jpeg


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> I hoped Scream will be using maybe "his" Scream1 at gameshow cup , but it looks like he is using classic Shaped FM and not the Tournament Pro Ambi Shape ...
> http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/7599-full/1454696117.3054.jpeg
> http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/7599-full/1454699632.1085.jpeg


TBQH I doubt he will ever use it. His entire career he has used ERGO mice so I doubt he would switch.


----------



## Maximillion

Has anyone noticed Scream looks more buff recently?


----------



## wareya

Confirmed heavy mouse


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Flusha must have taught him the ways of mouse lifting Kappa


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Has anyone noticed Scream looks more buff recently?


Puberty takes a while for some.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> Has anyone noticed Scream looks more buff recently?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Puberty takes a while for some.
Click to expand...

But he has like a full grown beard


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> But he has like a full grown beard


Exactly. He has more testosterone now, thus enabling beard and muscle. That was what I was getting at.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Maybe he took anabolic roids


----------



## john88

Man i just noticed my tourney has spots on the shell where the led bleeds through. Is it due to a really thin coating? If so, i wonder how long this coating will last, until bare plastic...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Bucake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *john88*
> 
> Man i just noticed my tourney has spots on the shell where the led bleeds through. Is it due to a really thin coating?


if the spots weren't there before, then probably yes


----------



## natshuba

hey guys, i just noticed my mouse4 is stiff when my mouse5 is tactile, is this normal or did i get a defective unit?


----------



## natshuba

^sorry for double post its the tournament pro


----------



## Fragil1ty

Slight review.

So I'm located in England and I received my Finalmouse TP in the mail this morning and I must say, I'm not too impressed. Below are some advantages/disadvantages that are personal grudges to me and maybe to others if you're considering buying the mouse.

(I'll provide some pictures soon, I'm a little tired at the moment due to a lack of sleep on my part).

*Advantages*


The scroll wheel feels better both when scrolling on screen and a physical feeling while in your hands
The shape of the mouse is much better than the FM2015 in my opinion
The sensor still seems to be very good, on par with the FM2015 for sure.
*Disadvantages*


The bottom teflon feet are very different to that of the FM 2015 and because of this, the mouse scrapes along my mouse mat unlike the FM 2015 which feels like it's gliding
When I hover my left finger of LMB 1 and very slightly tap, I can feel a sort of slight movement in the plastic, something that was not apparent in the FM2015 it just feels a little cheap
The clicks feel a lot different, I think they've been re-designed, so they feel louder and slightly heavier (not by too much though)
The light is a fair bit brighter when compared to the FM2015, not sure why this has been increased, it's a little too bright now.
*Summary*

So overall at this moment in time, I'm not too happy with the purchase of my Finalmouse Tournament Pro. I thought it would feel a little bit more sturdy in the hands, I thought it would be a better product, now I'm sure as time goes on and the more that I do in-fact use this product, I may prefer it more than the FM2015 but as it stands right now? that's just not the case. My biggest gripe at this moment in time is the feet on the bottom of the mouse, it just feels as if it's gripping at my mouse mat and not being as smooth in terms of gliding and moving across the mouse mat as the FM2015, this is a bit of a major drawback for me.

I've not had chance to test the mouse in-game yet, but I will be doing so later this evening.

I hope this post doesn't discourage you from buying the mouse, as it is STILL a great mouse do not get me wrong, but I thought it would be best if I post my own thoughts so that people who do not have the mouse can get a rough idea of what to expect when they receive it in the post.


----------



## natshuba

is your mouse4 'harder' than mous5? my mouse4 is sort of like stuck at times not sure if defective or meant to be like this, the mouse5 is fine. Also when i lift my mouse/put the mouse back sometimes it triggers mouse1


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Slight review.
> 
> So I'm located in England and I received my Finalmouse TP in the mail this morning and I must say, I'm not too impressed. Below are some advantages/disadvantages that are personal grudges to me and maybe to others if you're considering buying the mouse.
> 
> (I'll provide some pictures soon, I'm a little tired at the moment due to a lack of sleep on my part).
> 
> *Advantages*
> 
> 
> The scroll wheel feels better both when scrolling on screen and a physical feeling while in your hands
> The shape of the mouse is much better than the FM2015 in my opinion
> The sensor still seems to be very good, on par with the FM2015 for sure.
> *Disadvantages*
> 
> 
> The bottom teflon feet are very different to that of the FM 2015 and because of this, the mouse scrapes along my mouse mat unlike the FM 2015 which feels like it's gliding
> When I hover my left finger of LMB 1 and very slightly tap, I can feel a sort of slight movement in the plastic, something that was not apparent in the FM2015 it just feels a little cheap
> The clicks feel a lot different, I think they've been re-designed, so they feel louder and slightly heavier (not by too much though)
> The light is a fair bit brighter when compared to the FM2015, not sure why this has been increased, it's a little too bright now.
> *Summary*
> 
> So overall at this moment in time, I'm not too happy with the purchase of my Finalmouse Tournament Pro. I thought it would feel a little bit more sturdy in the hands, I thought it would be a better product, now I'm sure as time goes on and the more that I do in-fact use this product, I may prefer it more than the FM2015 but as it stands right now? that's just not the case. My biggest gripe at this moment in time is the feet on the bottom of the mouse, it just feels as if it's gripping at my mouse mat and not being as smooth in terms of gliding and moving across the mouse mat as the FM2015, this is a bit of a major drawback for me.
> 
> I've not had chance to test the mouse in-game yet, but I will be doing so later this evening.
> 
> I hope this post doesn't discourage you from buying the mouse, as it is STILL a great mouse do not get me wrong, but I thought it would be best if I post my own thoughts so that people who do not have the mouse can get a rough idea of what to expect when they receive it in the post.


Those problems you mentioned doesn't seem to be anything to be concerned, they don't really limit your performance by any means. Check if one of the mouse feet is placed incorrectly and fix it, should help the scraping problems.


----------



## coldc0ffee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Slight review.
> 
> So I'm located in England and I received my Finalmouse TP in the mail this morning and I must say, I'm not too impressed. Below are some advantages/disadvantages that are personal grudges to me and maybe to others if you're considering buying the mouse.
> 
> (I'll provide some pictures soon, I'm a little tired at the moment due to a lack of sleep on my part).
> 
> *Advantages*
> 
> 
> The scroll wheel feels better both when scrolling on screen and a physical feeling while in your hands
> The shape of the mouse is much better than the FM2015 in my opinion
> The sensor still seems to be very good, on par with the FM2015 for sure.
> *Disadvantages*
> 
> 
> The bottom teflon feet are very different to that of the FM 2015 and because of this, the mouse scrapes along my mouse mat unlike the FM 2015 which feels like it's gliding
> When I hover my left finger of LMB 1 and very slightly tap, I can feel a sort of slight movement in the plastic, something that was not apparent in the FM2015 it just feels a little cheap
> The clicks feel a lot different, I think they've been re-designed, so they feel louder and slightly heavier (not by too much though)
> The light is a fair bit brighter when compared to the FM2015, not sure why this has been increased, it's a little too bright now.
> *Summary*
> 
> So overall at this moment in time, I'm not too happy with the purchase of my Finalmouse Tournament Pro. I thought it would feel a little bit more sturdy in the hands, I thought it would be a better product, now I'm sure as time goes on and the more that I do in-fact use this product, I may prefer it more than the FM2015 but as it stands right now? that's just not the case. My biggest gripe at this moment in time is the feet on the bottom of the mouse, it just feels as if it's gripping at my mouse mat and not being as smooth in terms of gliding and moving across the mouse mat as the FM2015, this is a bit of a major drawback for me.
> 
> I've not had chance to test the mouse in-game yet, but I will be doing so later this evening.
> 
> I hope this post doesn't discourage you from buying the mouse, as it is STILL a great mouse do not get me wrong, but I thought it would be best if I post my own thoughts so that people who do not have the mouse can get a rough idea of what to expect when they receive it in the post.


Just get intellimouse hyperglides and throw em right on top of the current feet. Also, I know exactly what you mean about the mouse 1 and 2 slight movement. This is probably the biggest issue I have with my unit.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> Just get intellimouse hyperglides and throw em right on top of the current feet. Also, I know exactly what you mean about the mouse 1 and 2 slight movement. This is probably the biggest issue I have with my unit.


Yeah that's quite true, I think i'll go ahead and do so to be honest with you, it's not a huge deal, but it's just a slight issue that I have at this moment in time.
My biggest gripe at the moment is the left mouse button that feels kind of 'loose', while the right mouse button is perfect and is how it should be. Everything else is great and one of the biggest improvements is the m4/m5 buttons, they feel AMAZING now.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> Just get intellimouse hyperglides and throw em right on top of the current feet. Also, I know exactly what you mean about the mouse 1 and 2 slight movement. This is probably the biggest issue I have with my unit.


So it's not just me then? that's good to know. It's a little annoying though, it wasn't at-all prevalent on my old FM2015, so not sure why it's prevalent now. I was tempted to send it back, but I'd rather not go ahead and do so as I'm just not a fan of waiting.


----------



## coldc0ffee

Agreed the mouse buttons are annoying. Unfortunately for me they REALLY annoy me. As with yours it's mainly my left mouse button, but the right has it a tiny bit too. For me I can't stay focused on the game because my fingers are rattling the mouse buttons a lot.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> Agreed the mouse buttons are annoying. Unfortunately for me they REALLY annoy me. As with yours it's mainly my left mouse button, but the right has it a tiny bit too. For me I can't stay focused on the game because my fingers are rattling the mouse buttons a lot.


I made a quick little video to demonstrate this, is this what yours is like also?






I don't know what to do, really. It's just putting me off my game really, hopefully someone at FM can address this issue.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coldc0ffee*
> 
> Just get intellimouse hyperglides and throw em right on top of the current feet. Also, I know exactly what you mean about the mouse 1 and 2 slight movement. This is probably the biggest issue I have with my unit.


slight movement in button is nothing but annoying, it doesn't limit your performance since you usually keep your fingers on buttons to be ready to shoot which means you are already close the actuation point when you click therefore not affecting to the button delay.. Minor nitpicking that is preferable to be fixed but does not ruin a product by any means.. Just get those major performance-affecting things right and professional users will be satisfied..


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> slight movement in button is nothing but annoying, it doesn't limit your performance since you usually keep your fingers on buttons to be ready to shoot which means you are already close the actuation point when you click therefore not affecting to the button delay.. Minor nitpicking that is preferable to be fixed but does not ruin a product by any means.. Just get those major performance-affecting things right and professional users will be satisfied..


Oh no of course not. I love the mouse apart from this minor little hinderance, not going to stop using it, it feels amazing in the hand and the texture of the mouse is amazing also. Just this left click issue is annoying me and others at the moment, hopefully it's not happened to everyones mouse though.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I made a quick little video to demonstrate this, is this what yours is like also?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what to do, really. It's just putting me off my game really, hopefully someone at FM can address this issue.


If it clicks fine it has no performance impact, stop getting annoyed by those things, learn to be tolerant and notice that when you have a bad performance it is 99% because of you, not because of a mouse or any other equipment..


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> If it clicks fine it has no performance impact, stop getting annoyed by those things, learn to be tolerant and notice that when you have a bad performance it is 99% because of you, not because of a mouse or any other equipment..


I'm not saying it has performance issues, my annoyance is that this wasn't present in my FM 2015 but it is on my FM TE 2016, so it's just a bit annoying really, that's all.


----------



## raiikd

My left click has the same problem making it hard and annoying to spam the button. Going to return it because I might get another one with the same problem.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Jonagold

Yep, I said it only because I am concerned that FinalMouse will put too much effort fixing things that doesn't matter and then fail something important in exchange..


----------



## Melan

Under weight of a finger it won't matter much.


----------



## ronal

I guess r0ach was right, the Finalmouse is not so final after all. They are charging $70 for a mouse with numerous issues.


----------



## doors1991

I prefer the mionix castor much more,i have both.


----------



## Secondo

How is the TP shape compared to Sensei? Are they similar?


----------



## bruzanHD

Just don't buy one yet until they fix the QC issues they've encountered with the TP.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> Just don't buy one yet until they fix the QC issues they've encountered with the TP.


+1


----------



## natshuba

mjy finalmouse literally died just now midgame, the LED is still on but its not working, so yeah thats the last time i try this.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Secondo*
> 
> How is the TP shape compared to Sensei? Are they similar?


It doesn't look similar to the Sensei. The only thing that is "similar" is both are symmetrical.


----------



## the1freeMan

Does the TP still use holtek mcu with smoothing/averaging?


----------



## wmoftw

crossing my fingers mine doesn't have this clicking issue, or apparently doesn't die all together.

mine should arrive tomorrow


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> crossing my fingers mine doesn't have this clicking issue, or apparently doesn't die all together.
> 
> mine should arrive tomorrow


GL man, I hope yours arrives in a better shape than mine day. Arranging a collection/replacement tomorrow myself. I'm hoping this was just a one off.


----------



## SmashTV

If you wait for QC issues to cease might have to wait for the next release.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> If you wait for QC issues to cease might have to wait for the next release.


What gets me is that it has a sticker on the bottom that insinuates that it has 'passed' QC, so? /confused


----------



## 2shellbonus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> What gets me is that it has a sticker on the bottom that insinuates that it has 'passed' QC, so? /confused


Qc for mice is very basic. Before packaging the person will click all buttons once and see that the work. And will move cursor. That's all. There is no testing for minute details or she'll imperfections. If no matter how crooked the shell is, as long as you can actuate the buttons some way its a qc pass


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> What gets me is that it has a sticker on the bottom that insinuates that it has 'passed' QC, so? /confused


Passed QC stickers mean very little.


----------



## popups

If the FM mice were design well it would be hard to mess things up. Build quality wouldn't be a major factor.

Just from pictures I could tell what people were going to start complaining about when they got their FM. I mentioned the side buttons, main buttons and mouse feet before people complained / got their mice.

I have no idea if they factored in the Japanese Omron plunger difference and the 3360 footprint when they were designing the TP molds. I won't be surprised if the Scream1 has a bunch of issues/workarounds.


----------



## zeflow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> If the FM mice were design well it would be hard to mess things up. Build quality wouldn't be a major factor.
> 
> Just from pictures I could tell what people were going to start complaining about when they got their FM. I mentioned the side buttons, main buttons and mouse feet before people complained / got their mice.
> 
> I have no idea if they factored in the Japanese Omron plunger difference and the 3360 footprint when they were designing the TP molds. I won't be surprised if the Scream1 has a bunch of issues/workarounds.


GJ popups


----------



## turnschuh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> So do I and when I feel the most control, the sensor is at around the upper pivoting point of the thumb when my thumb is straight. This is around 9 cm from my wrist pivoting point. I guess talking about this is pointless since it seems to come down to opinions anyways. I just like that the arm movement distance versus the sensor movement caused by the wrist pivot are quite close to each other.
> 
> Holy cow lower your sensitivity or get a higher CPI and compensate via the sensitivity value. You are missing headshots at long ranges with that sensitivity value. Talking about precisely tracking tiny heads when you have over 4 sensitivity is pointless.


Sensitivity of 4 is still fine, even for CS. the lower angle granularity isnt THAT bad and you really just feel it when double scoping AWP and move the mouse very slow, but even then there is no serious map large enough were you would struggle hitting a head with that. i wouldnt go over a sens 5 though, thats were you could probably run into issues. and sadly there are no WMO/IO with higher than cpi than that.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zeflow*
> 
> GJ popups


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *john88*
> 
> Just got my replacement FM tourney from Amazon, *the new one has rattles for M1 and M2, atleast no light bleed from shell from what i can tell now. Also the side buttons have a much louder click than my first one...*
> 
> Finalmouse step up your QC plz!


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*


I'm about to get my third one tomorrow due to the fact that the first two that I've had have rattled and have had light bleeding through hall over the place.

These issues aren't apparent on the Ergo, so do not make them apparent on the TP, please fix these issues.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I'm about to get my third one tomorrow due to the fact that the first two that I've had have rattled and have had light bleeding through hall over the place.
> 
> These issues aren't apparent on the Ergo, so do not make them apparent on the TP, please fix these issues.


You didn't get a bad batch of finalmouse, these issues have been present since day 1. Many many complaints for all versions + on different forums. Their QC is a joke sadly. And they don't seem to be doing much about it. Zowie at least has gotten their crap together after the feedback.

Like for example people reported that they had 2-3 fm ergo units break on them altogether, with the sensor stopping to work. When you hear this more than 3 times it's pretty much instantly obvious how little they put attention to it. Probably iust factory / oem standard.


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I'm about to get my third one tomorrow due to the fact that the first two that I've had have rattled and have had light bleeding through hall over the place.
> 
> These issues aren't apparent on the Ergo, so do not make them apparent on the TP, please fix these issues.


Hello Fragil1ty,

I am sorry you have been having so much trouble with the Tournament Pro. We are aware of the light bleed issues and rattle issues that were in this first batch and have already fixed these for future batches. However the fact that you had to go through 3 at this point to get your perfect product is unacceptable. Please contact support telling them I referred you and I will make sure that you are taken care of in terms of receiving a Tournament Pro from a new batch and any other hassle you have had to go through.

-Jude


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Fragil1ty,
> 
> I am sorry you have been having so much trouble with the Tournament Pro. We are aware of the light bleed issues and rattle issues that were in this first batch and have already fixed these for future batches. However the fact that you had to go through 3 at this point to get your perfect product is unacceptable. Please contact support telling them I referred you and I will make sure that you are taken care of in terms of receiving a Tournament Pro from a new batch and any other hassle you have had to go through.
> 
> -Jude


I will get in touch, thank you for your help thus far.


----------



## kashim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello Fragil1ty,
> 
> I am sorry you have been having so much trouble with the Tournament Pro. We are aware of the light bleed issues and rattle issues that were in this first batch and have already fixed these for future batches. However the fact that you had to go through 3 at this point to get your perfect product is unacceptable. Please contact support telling them I referred you and I will make sure that you are taken care of in terms of receiving a Tournament Pro from a new batch and any other hassle you have had to go through.
> 
> -Jude


hi jude,any release date for screamone?


----------



## Gylfen

Like, i do wanna buy it but if there is anything wrong with the mouse its just to much hassle to send it back for me, ordering from amazon uk and living in sweden, i believe it will takes something like a month to get that fixed.


----------



## wmoftw

i am having no issues so far with my finalmouse. liking it a lot! highly recommended if you're looking for something in the shape of a wmo/imo 1.1. no quality control issues here, all good


----------



## kukuboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gylfen*
> 
> Like, i do wanna buy it but if there is anything wrong with the mouse its just to much hassle to send it back for me, ordering from amazon uk and living in sweden, i believe it will takes something like a month to get that fixed.


i have the same problem.

I am also afraid to order this mouse. I live in Finland and i fear it would be such a hassle to send it back etc. Dont want to waste 80euros to something that isn't working.

Oh, and to other users: how big is the current issues with the 2016 Ergo? Are they just minor things or actually major ones? Like is the loose button a big thing or? How many just breaks? like sensor dies etc?


----------



## Secondo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kukuboy*
> 
> i have the same problem.
> 
> I am also afraid to order this mouse. I live in Finland and i fear it would be such a hassle to send it back etc. Dont want to waste 80euros to something that isn't working.
> 
> Oh, and to other users: how big is the current issues with the 2016 Ergo? Are they just minor things or actually major ones? Like is the loose button a big thing or? How many just breaks? like sensor dies etc?


So I had a FinalMouse SE which had the "spin" bug. I recently e-mailed FinalMouse about this issue, and they sent me a new Ergo 2016. The 2016 I received suffered from the same bug and I sent another e-mail to them and got another 2016. The 2nd unit they sent me still have the exact same issue even on 3 different computers. I gave up on the ergo and spent my money on a Tournament Pro, which I know was a mistake considering the QC issues but I was too hyped about the TP







Fingers crossed


----------



## kukuboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Secondo*
> 
> So I had a FinalMouse SE which had the "spin" bug. I recently e-mailed FinalMouse about this issue, and they sent me a new Ergo 2016. The 2016 I received suffered from the same bug and I sent another e-mail to them and got another 2016. The 2nd unit they sent me still have the exact same issue even on 3 different computers. I gave up on the ergo and spent my money on a Tournament Pro, which I know was a mistake considering the QC issues but I was too hyped about the TP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fingers crossed


How its even possible to get this unlucky. Damn.

Now im even more afraid.

Yeah fingers crossed to you man. Hope you will recieve a working one!


----------



## kiz3r

Just signed up on here to give a quick review. I got the Tournament Pro yesterday and love it but have noticed similar niggles to those that people have already mentioned, so there are definite QC 'issues'. They aren't major problems though.

I'll give a better write-up later when I have more time.


----------



## rondawgyo

This may be a stupid question but I'll ask it anyways haha. Since the FM doesnt use any driver should I uninstall the current mouse driver/software I have installed for my Roccat mouse or am I fine to leave it incase I want to swap back to it?


----------



## a_ak57

It does use drivers actually, just generic stuff and not anything you download from their site in a package with software. You plug the mouse in, windows installs whatever it needs to like with other USB devices and you're good to go. Likewise, you don't need to uninstall anything else. It'd be more accurate to call it a softwareless mouse.


----------



## rondawgyo

Thanks man, appreciate the response and info.


----------



## rondawgyo

So my finalmouse arrived yesterday and I'm enjoying to so far but I'm wondering if anyone else that was coming from a heavier mouse felt that due to the lightweight of the FM felt like their sensitivity in games felt very high now? I'm not sure if I should knee-jerk lower my sens or give it more time and try to adjust to the new mouse.


----------



## Gylfen

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Secondo*
> 
> So I had a FinalMouse SE which had the "spin" bug. I recently e-mailed FinalMouse about this issue, and they sent me a new Ergo 2016. The 2016 I received suffered from the same bug and I sent another e-mail to them and got another 2016. The 2nd unit they sent me still have the exact same issue even on 3 different computers. I gave up on the ergo and spent my money on a Tournament Pro, which I know was a mistake considering the QC issues but I was too hyped about the TP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fingers crossed


Wait, so you didnt have to send the mice back first?


----------



## Secondo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gylfen*
> 
> Wait, so you didnt have to send the mice back first?


Nope. They simply apologized and shipped me a new one right away, no questions asked.


----------



## kiz3r

Now not available on .co.uk because of one idiot.


----------



## iceskeleton

wonder if he complained about the weight lmao


----------



## Dreyka

http://www.amazon.co.uk/FinalMouse-Finalmouse-2016-Tournament-Pro/dp/B01A8MAPY0/



It's a verified purchase as well.





Well the logo, font and colors are eerily similar to Destiny which is not something I'd realized.


----------



## jtl999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/FinalMouse-Finalmouse-2016-Tournament-Pro/dp/B01A8MAPY0/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a verified purchase as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well the logo, font and colors are eerily similar to Destiny which is not something I'd realized.


I realized from 0 day about the logo


----------



## kiz3r

So I've had the Tournament Pro for a couple of days now and have played a few games of CS with it so thought I would write up my experience with it so far.

I've been using a Zowie FK/FK2 for the last couple of years, but have tried a number of other mice in that time including a FM2015, Deathadder, EC2-A, G100s and G303.

I hold the mouse in a claw grip with the butt of my hand on the on top of the mouse (not resting on the mouse pad) so my fingers are generally quite far forward. On the FM2015, this meant the sharp edges on the sides were right where I gripped the mouse and so it was pretty uncomfortable. I've also never been a big fan of ergo shaped mice in general so decided I would give the Tournament Pro a try.

So, on to my actual thoughts on the TP...

*Shape*
Fits very well in the hand and suits both palm and claw. The width is just right and the rounded corners as I mentioned are a big plus. The shape is not too dissimilar to the Intellimouse 1.1 and is probably the best shape of any mouse I've tried along with the FK.

*Buttons*
Side buttons are a God send when compared with the FM2015 (what were they thinking?!), and are also much nicer to press than the FK. The M1/2 clicks are a little heavier than the FM2015 which is good but are still a little too easy to press for me. I guess that's partly because I'm so used to the FK2's Huano's.

*Feet*
The Teflon feet move across a cloth pad very quickly, I'm hoping they'll slow a bit as they wear in as they glide a bit too well for me at the minute. The glide is very smooth though, even smoother than on the FM2015 despite them looking very similar. My spray control is suffering because of them at the minute though!

*LOD*
Similar to the FM2015 and just right I'd say. I can't use mice with a high LOD (Deathadder style) for low sens gaming, and also one of the only gripes I have with the FK is the insanely low LOD. But on the TP it's right in that sweet spot when used on a black cloth pad.

*Sensor*
Not really much to say here as I'm only basing my findings on a few games of CS. It works and feels good, but so does the FK, so did the G303, and so did just about every modern gaming mouse I've tried bar the G100s which seemed to malfunction quite easily.

*QC ISSUES. THERE ARE DEFINITE QC ISSUES*
- Light bleed from around FM logo where the coating has been sprayed on too thin (see pic). I can deal with it but it's pretty poor for a relatively expensive mouse.
- Mouse 2 is loose and rattles! This could be pretty annoying especially if you play MOBA/RTS games.



Overall, I really like it. I'm still not 100% sure if I'll be replacing the FK2 with it long term, but I did actually unplug the FK2 for the first time in a long while. I still feel more in control of every little movement when using the FK so I'll see how it goes over the next few days. What I can say is that out of all the mice I have tried, it's the one that has come closest to the feel and performance of the FK2.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> I realized from 0 day about the logo


It's probably not even their logo. It's even on the pcb of the dream machines mouse. Probably factory logo or something


----------



## FinalmouseJude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> It's probably not even their logo. It's even on the pcb of the dream machines mouse. Probably factory logo or something


One of the reasons we are looking to move manufacturing stateside is to avoid having instances of our PCBs or other designs (most importantly scream one firmware ) circulating around Shenzhen. Unfortunately no tier 2 assembly factory overseas offers good IP protection







I was planning on heading to Shenzhen and visiting some of the tier 1s like laview but from what we are hearing they aren't a good option at the moment either.

Hopefully by next month we have our factory operations in the states finalized as it would be a major improvement. I'll post updates to the tumblr when I visit the factory

Edit: basically the more control you get over the development/engineering pipeline the less a tier 2 odm makes sense


----------



## jtl999

What do Logitech/SteelSeries do?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtl999*
> 
> What do Logitech/SteelSeries do?


Logitech manufactures in Taiwan in their own factory afaik.


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> One of the reasons we are looking to move manufacturing stateside is to avoid having instances of our PCBs or other designs (most importantly scream one firmware ) circulating around Shenzhen. Unfortunately no tier 2 assembly factory overseas offers good IP protection
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on heading to Shenzhen and visiting some of the tier 1s like laview but from what we are hearing they aren't a good option at the moment either.
> 
> Hopefully by next month we have our factory operations in the states finalized as it would be a major improvement. I'll post updates to the tumblr when I visit the factory
> 
> Edit: basically the more control you get over the development/engineering pipeline the less a tier 2 odm makes sense


Hold up.

So initially, you took another company's molds, slap a sticker over their shells, use completely untouched factory parts down to the firmware coupled with a price gouge and false advertising (even falsely advertising the production aspects).

But now you're complaining that you don't want your stuff circulating around when that was - and to a degree still is - your model of business.

Not only wallet squeezing but also crappy people too. Where were these morals when you were blindly plucking bits around Shenzhen?


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Hold up.
> 
> So initially, you took another company's molds, slap a sticker over their shells, use completely untouched factory parts down to the firmware coupled with a price gouge and false advertising (even falsely advertising the production aspects).
> 
> But now you're complaining that you don't want your stuff circulating around when that was - and to a degree still is - your model of business.
> 
> Not only wallet squeezing but also crappy people too. Where were these morals when you were blindly plucking bits around Shenzhen?


Their business model revolves around creating their own special firmware and their own special sensor which will likely just be a tweaked version of another existing sensor. They'll then proceed to market them as uber e-sports super pro optimized blah blah which you can only buy from Finalmouse for $90 and optimized for Finalmouse surfaces.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Hold up.
> 
> So initially, you took another company's molds, slap a sticker over their shells, use completely untouched factory parts down to the firmware coupled with a price gouge and false advertising (even falsely advertising the production aspects).
> 
> But now you're complaining that you don't want your stuff circulating around when that was - and to a degree still is - your model of business.
> 
> Not only wallet squeezing but also crappy people too. Where were these morals when you were blindly plucking bits around Shenzhen?


Is this actually surprising to you? When a small startup first steps into the market with barely any experience and not a whole lot of funding, of course they're going to go for the safest least expensive option. Now that they've had some success, have earned some more money, and have some experience, they're willing to put a bigger investment into their products. In any case, would you rather they just stick to making mice out of oem shells from cheapo factories or would you rather they try to offer something more unique? I can understand people being upset about their ergo mouse, as you pointed out it is just a rebranded, light weight oem shell with a decent sensor, but I really can't see how you can call them immoral for trying to make their own unique products especially if doing so will help with their QC issues which right now is most people's biggest complaint with their mice.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChinaRep*
> 
> barely any experience


http://whois.domaintools.com/feenixcollection.com
>Created on 2011-09-16


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> http://whois.domaintools.com/feenixcollection.com
> >Created on 2011-09-16


Well then... I can definitely see how people would be upset about their ergo mouse and marketing bs lol. Still, I don't see how it's a bad thing for them to try to make their own mice. If suck then we'll find out and they probably won't sell well, assuming people actually look for unbiased reviews. If it's good then it's a win-win for everybody.


----------



## detto87

I basically lost all interest in that mouse, the Screm One, or any other further FinalMouse product.
I had tolerance for their first mouse, could see and accept that it might have such flaws.

But seeing how it all turns out for those new products now combind with their ways of doing their business is just really driving me far far away.


----------



## ronal

Its a scam, people are buying into all this false advertising.


----------



## jsx3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> One of the reasons we are looking to move manufacturing stateside is to avoid having instances of our PCBs or other designs (most importantly scream one firmware ) circulating around Shenzhen. Unfortunately no tier 2 assembly factory overseas offers good IP protection
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on heading to Shenzhen and visiting some of the tier 1s like laview but from what we are hearing they aren't a good option at the moment either.
> 
> Hopefully by next month we have our factory operations in the states finalized as it would be a major improvement. I'll post updates to the tumblr when I visit the factory
> 
> Edit: basically the more control you get over the development/engineering pipeline the less a tier 2 odm makes sense


laview tier 1.. alright.. lol


----------



## aLv1080

roflmao

This thread makes me laugh


----------



## speedyeggtart

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> http://whois.domaintools.com/feenixcollection.com
> >Created on 2011-09-16


I'm still confused... is Finalmouse and Feenix the same company or owners? Or just an employee that worked at Feenix and left to go work for Finalmouse.? The reason I am asking is because Feenix sponsored Speed Gaming DOTA 2 a few years ago (A team that was going through some eSports drama back then and managed to win MLG). Speed Gaming DOTA 2 roster had EternalEnvy (EE-Sama), Arteezy, AUI_2000, and SingSing = four very big names in DOTA 2


----------



## the1freeMan

Still no 1000HZ? Why are you even allowed to sell this... oh wait you're not


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *speedyeggtart*
> 
> I'm still confused... is Finalmouse and Feenix the same company or owners? Or just an employee that worked at Feenix and left to go work for Finalmouse.? The reason I am asking is because Feenix sponsored Speed Gaming DOTA 2 a few years ago (A team that was going through some eSports drama back then and managed to win MLG).


I don't know what's confusing about it. Ashkon runs Feenix, Ashkon runs Finalmouse.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I was planning on heading to Shenzhen and visiting some of the tier 1s like laview but from what we are hearing they aren't a good option at the moment either.


You aren't very good at this are you?


----------



## jsx3

I guess.. I mean when you indirectly call your own products tier 2 in relation to publicly referencing a specific ODM for the sake of appeasing certain users.. lol

But what do I know or expect out of a company that's willing to use irrelevent technical information and "ESPORTS" as a scapegoat to sell these "tier 2" products.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jsx3*
> 
> I guess.. I mean when you indirectly call your own products tier 2 in relation to publicly referencing a specific ODM for the sake of appeasing certain users.. lol
> 
> But what do I know or expect out of a company that's willing to use irrelevent technical information and "ESPORTS" as a scapegoat to sell these "tier 2" products.


Self-entitled people like you are hilarious.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Self-entitled people like you are hilarious.


Quote:


> Self Entitlement
> The false feeling that someone inherently deserves something despite not having done anything to earn it.
> 
> Alt:
> self-entitlement
> A feeling that one deserves more than one actually does.


I don't know much about FM and I don't want to because they sketch me out so instead I'm going to be playing devil's advocate here, but don't you think that if I am paying top dollar for a mouse then I do deserve the best? I am not free loading and just going "Oh I deserve this when I didn't do anything to earn it." because I did do something to earn it...I gave them $70, and do I as the consumer not have the right to expect the product to have as few flaws as possible (though first batches usually have problems that go undetected, I'll give FM that.)


----------



## kyotkyotkyot




----------



## jsx3

Could care less if the guy was honest and didn't intend to mislead. The amount of BS I've read is pretty hilarious.

Carry on.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> I don't know much about FM and I don't want to because they sketch me out so instead I'm going to be playing devil's advocate here, but don't you think that if I am paying top dollar for a mouse then I do deserve the best? I am not free loading and just going "Oh I deserve this when I didn't do anything to earn it." because I did do something to earn it...I gave them $70, and do I as the consumer not have the right to expect the product to have as few flaws as possible (though first batches usually have problems that go undetected, I'll give FM that.)


It's great to see that you can use a dictionary, I'm sure your parents must be so proud. That education is paying off, congratulations.

I work in customer service and see this level of erratic behaviour all the time, the self-entitled nature of human beings being overly emotional towards an inanimate object. Granted, I've been annoyed myself a little bit, but I've got it sorted out myself and I've gone through the proper motions, i.e. Amazon and Finalmouse Support.

I've had 3 Finalmouse TP's thus far and while my mouse still isn't perfect, FMTP rev2/batch2 however you want to phrase it will seemingly fix all of these issues. I mean, take the current state of Amazon.co.uk for example, 1 customer has put a word in surrounding this peripheral and now it's unsellable to anyone else, which is just ludacris.

There were also slight issues w/ the launch of the FM 2015 Ergo but they were also all fixed in the second revision of the mouse and finally, these revisions to the Finalmouse TP will help the Scream version of the mouse also. It's just getting a little annoying when people they're entitled to the meadow when all they've bought is a flower, you know what I mean?

To answer your question though:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alya*
> but don't you think that if I am paying top dollar for a mouse then I do deserve the best?


I do, but you have to also understand that this is a new company, newer than most and while they have had a while to get their newer mouses ready, you have to also understand that manufacturing errors do occur and it's hard to get things perfect the first time around.


----------



## wmoftw

itt: entitled nerds who have nothing better to do than whine about a mouse company
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> You aren't very good at this are you?


could you be anymore snobby about this? please enlighten us as to why he's 'not good at this'.

the self-righteousness and snobbishness of people here are RIDICULOUS. oh it doesn't have 1000hz, so what? a) you weren't good at games to begin with b) it wouldn't make a difference anyways. 500hz->1000hz doesn't make everything suddenly way better and amazing. there is no noticeable difference between them at all, so it's just another dumb criticism.

my finalmouse is working perfectly and has no issues. and I bet that's the case for 90% of those mice sold because most people don't say a word when their product works and they're happy with it.

it's just pathetic and even hypocritical to rip them so much when people literally recommend *kanas and kinzus, some of the worst mice ever made*. people will recommend a sensor with 10cm LOD and advise you to put tape over it, and somehow finalmouse is the crappiest and money hungry company out there? Kim Rom said no to better switches because they cost pennies more, but Jude is somehow the second coming of Satan with the IQ of a rock?

people are sketched out from finalmouse because they're a small company and think they only care about money... here's a solution, hire more people and call it Steelseries. now people suddenly don't care. you think their intentions are malicious because of the small size of the company, yet size and maliciousness are not mutually exclusive.

I would wager most people here know nothing of manufacturing or starting/running a business, yet they will run their mouse and complain all day and act like people are stupid to referring to a 'tier 1' manufacturing plant. 99% of the time, those people making the claims have no idea what they're talking about, as evident here.

once again, my finalmouse tournament pro is working fine, oh my god it must be the only one in existence better call the BBB right now


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> itt: entitled nerds who have nothing better to do than whine about a mouse company
> could you be anymore snobby about this? please enlighten us as to why he's 'not good at this'.
> 
> the self-righteousness and snobbishness of people here are RIDICULOUS. oh it doesn't have 1000hz, so what? a) you weren't good at games to begin with b) it wouldn't make a difference anyways. 500hz->1000hz doesn't make everything suddenly way better and amazing. there is no noticeable difference between them at all, so it's just another dumb criticism.
> 
> my finalmouse is working perfectly and has no issues. and I bet that's the case for 90% of those mice sold because most people don't say a word when their product works and they're happy with it.
> 
> it's just pathetic and even hypocritical to rip them so much when people literally recommend *kanas and kinzus, some of the worst mice ever made*. people will recommend a sensor with 10cm LOD and advise you to put tape over it, and somehow finalmouse is the crappiest and money hungry company out there? Kim Rom said no to better switches because they cost pennies more, but Jude is somehow the second coming of Satan with the IQ of a rock?
> 
> people are sketched out from finalmouse because they're a small company and think they only care about money... here's a solution, hire more people and call it Steelseries. now people suddenly don't care. you think their intentions are malicious because of the small size of the company, yet size and maliciousness are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> I would wager most people here know nothing of manufacturing or starting/running a business, yet they will run their mouse and complain all day and act like people are stupid to referring to a 'tier 1' manufacturing plant. 99% of the time, those people making the claims have no idea what they're talking about, as evident here.
> 
> once again, my finalmouse tournament pro is working fine, oh my god it must be the only one in existence better call the BBB right now


^ this.

+1


----------



## ramraze

Well I think Jude needs a bit more respect for trying to communicate with us. Yes he is no skylit but he never claimed to be. He is not responsible for sensor engineering so don't act as if he was.

It's noble that he is trying to communicate with us.
However, complaining, like in many many threads with many products, such as Zowie, is not because people hve nothing better to do but to raise awareness and be heard. If customers are persistent enough then companies will listen.

And no, this is not a first time that FM has issues. This has happened with every release. The 2016 ergo has a lot of the issues that 2015 had. Just read people's reports.

The problem here is not failing, it's lying and spreading false info. That's not cool. So that's a massive failure.
Yes people go overboard with complaining but better that then letting the companies get away with it. Just don't take it personally, of course people are pissed off. Just the way it works. This is a very common thing and I'm surprised that you're surprised about it.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> The problem here is not failing, it's lying and spreading false info.


lying and spreading false info? what did they lie about and what false info did they spread? other than the weight being listed incorrectly for the tourny pro, they haven't lied about anything.

is this the whole 'they said they and pros made the shell but it's oem so they are lying'? because i already proved you guys wrong on that, all it shows is how bad people are at reading comprehension. fm never said they made the shell, nor did a pro.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> lying and spreading false info? what did they lie about and what false info did they spread? other than the weight being listed incorrectly for the tourny pro, they haven't lied about anything.
> 
> is this the whole 'they said they and pros made the shell but it's oem so they are lying'? because i already proved you guys wrong on that, all it shows is how bad people are at reading comprehension. fm never said they made the shell, nor did a pro.


It's nothing to do with lying, it is the dishonesty. Yes those are two different things. The weight was listed incorrectly for every mouse they have released.


----------



## Dreyka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> lying and spreading false info? what did they lie about and what false info did they spread? other than the weight being listed incorrectly for the tourny pro, they haven't lied about anything.
> 
> is this the whole 'they said they and pros made the shell but it's oem so they are lying'? because i already proved you guys wrong on that, all it shows is how bad people are at reading comprehension. fm never said they made the shell, nor did a pro.


Do you not remember the "custom lens" that is actually just the standard ADNS-2120 lens.

The "several marketing guys" working in the Finalmouse residential cupboard and their "internal testing".

The weight listed is wrong.

The secret sauce firmware "optimized" for 400, 800, 1600, 3200 CPI that was the same as the Avior 7000 firmware.

The OEM shell "designed by pros".

The "expensive" PMW-3310 sensor.

The justifications for 500Hz polling rate.

The history of Feenix and their "artisan" OEM mice.

Even Zowie has managed to make better mice where you can change LOD (low/super low), polling rate and removed the LEDs from their mice except the EC series because they were too cheap to redesign the pcb.

It's not hard to understand why. Finalmouse has been consistently been dishonest to justify the $70 price for a cheap OEM mouse. Why should anyone trust anything they say. I'm just so impressed that Finalmouse has managed to make Zowie look respectable and Zowie/BenQ is responsive on reddit.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> Do you not remember the "custom lens" that is actually just the standard ADNS-2120 lens.
> The "several marketing guys" working in the Finalmouse residential cupboard.
> The weight listed is wrong.
> The secret sauce firmware "optimized" for 400, 800, 1600, 3200 CPI that was the same as the Avior 7000 firmware.
> The OEM shell "designed by pros".
> The "expensive" PMW-3310 sensor.


how is this any different than literally every other gaming company? razer, steelseries, almost everyone uses buzz words and over-hypes things.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dreyka*
> 
> It's not hard to understand why. Finalmouse has been consistently been dishonest to justify the $70 price for a cheap OEM mouse. Why should anyone trust them.


because for $70 I get a mouse that works very well? better than any razer, steelseries, or logitech mouse right now in terms of shape (wmo shape) and performance and weight.

you just listed literally whiny nit-picky reasons to criticize finalmouse. this is just like the 'they said pros made the shell' things. literally everyone who complained about that is 100% wrong and can't read. I am serious, you dummies cannot read something without making generalizations and using it to attack them in any way. I gave people the benefit of the doubt and said 'alright, what did finalmouse actually say in regards to the shell?". surprise surprise, people here were in the wrong. they never claimed they made the shell, nor did they say a pro designed it. they just said the shape received input from pros, which last time I checked, no one here can *disprove.* I bet when I go and look at all the other 'lies' from finalmouse, it's going to be the same situation. some butt-hurt nobody taking something out of context or misinterpreting it completely wrong, or being overly sensitive about marketing buzzwords. even the points listed above are garbage, no different from what steelseries or razer does.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> lying and spreading false info? what did they lie about and what false info did they spread? other than the weight being listed incorrectly for the tourny pro, they haven't lied about anything.
> 
> is this the whole 'they said they and pros made the shell but it's oem so they are lying'? because i already proved you guys wrong on that, all it shows is how bad people are at reading comprehension. fm never said they made the shell, nor did a pro.


I was referring to the fact that they said the Ergo 2016 will have rubber sides and 1000 hz (iirc).


----------



## aLv1080

IMO there's a huge difference between a 60$ mouse from a big company, that sponsors teams, invest in marketing and also design their own shells, to a start-up asking 70$ for their OEM mouse.

It's good that Jude actually replies people in here, I gotta agree with that. And also, Steelseries, Razer and even Zowie are overpriced. Indeed, they are.
But Finalmouse can be even more overpriced, not to mention all the QC problems that they still have. It's actually quite funny.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skylit*
> 
> Looks very ODM paired with a lot of marketing buzz words.
> 
> I'm not exactly impressed from what I see.


/thread


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> IMO there's a huge difference between a 60$ mouse from a big company, that sponsors teams, invest in marketing and also design their own shells, to a start-up asking 70$ for their OEM mouse.


there actually isn't a huge difference. what razer does with their money/budget (advertising, sponsorships) has no bearing on the quality of their products. razer mice are consistently bad, same with steelseries. you just proved how stupid it is to ask those kind of questions. how about IS THIS MOUSE AS GOOD AS THIS ONE? stop acting like Finalmouse needs to advertise more and sponsor more teams in order to churn out a better mouse.

just because a shell might be OEM, doesn't make it a bad mouse. It doesn't feel cheap, and it works. the truth is a $60 mouse from Razer or Steelseries might come with a shape they designed, but it also comes with bad sensors, bad design issues, terrible flaws, heavy weights, oh but you get software you can install, yay!

you're just judging it for face value, which is mistake number one. When you say 'oem mouse', people think of cheap WMO rip-offs. This isn't a cheap rip-off, considering it beats 90% of mice from Razer, Steelseries, and logitech. Did you see the g303 shape? Enjoy bad design with a $60 price tag with a fancy name.

I actually bought the mouse because I wanted to give it a shot. I actually have it in my hands and it's not a bad oem mouse that's a $70 rip off. I wouldn't hold back if this was a bad mouse since it cost me $100 Canadian. I would be really angry if I got a bad mouse or had to send it back, because it's a giant waste of money. News flash, it's not. It doesn't feel cheap at all.

Also QC issues are not representative from angry nerds complaining on this site. A vocal few aren't the majority, anyone here who is afraid of buying a bad mouse shouldn't listen to the very *few* people who are having issues.

don't judge a book by it's cover


----------



## Zibv

Did Finalmouse say if they are going to fix the shell issues on the Tournament Pro?

They should also correct the weight on Amazon. Finalmouse seems to make it a selling point.


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zibv*
> 
> Did Finalmouse say if they are going to fix the shell issues on the Tournament Pro?


just buy one, there are no shell issues. it either works or there's a rare chance you get one that has weird issues like the ones reported here. mine is fine and has zero problems


----------



## Zibv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> just buy one, there are no shell issues. it either works or there's a rare chance you get one that has weird issues like the ones reported here. mine is fine and has zero problems


Lucky you.

I bought one already. There's a gap in left side of the shell. You can almost stick a dime through it. The LED light profusely shines through it. I don't seem to be the only one that has this issue.


----------



## qsxcv

so basically they realized that zowie could sell mice for >$60 with minimal/no investment in the engineering (firmware, pcb, etc...), cuz esports.
so they do the same, but for the most part of last year, try to hide the fact that their engineering is outsourced to some oem/odm
now they're (supposedly) moving away from the oem/odm stuff, which is good, but it's funny how now they're not hiding that anymore, even though two of their mice fall under that category


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> there actually isn't a huge difference. what razer does with their money has no bearing on the quality of their products. razer mice are consistently bad, same with steelseries. you just proved how stupid it is to ask those kind of questions. how about IS THIS MOUSE AS GOOD AS THIS ONE? stop acting like Finalmouse needs to advertise more and sponsor more teams in order to churn out a better mouse.
> 
> just because a shell might be OEM, doesn't make it a bad mouse. It doesn't feel cheap, and it works. the truth is a $60 mouse from Razer or Steelseries might come with a shape they designed, but it also comes with bad sensors, bad design issues, terrible flaws, heavy weights, oh but you get software you can install, yay!
> 
> you're just judging it for face value, which is mistake number one. When you say 'oem mouse', people think of cheap WMO rip-offs. This isn't a cheap rip-off, considering it beats 90% of mice from Razer, Steelseries, and logitech. Did you see the g303 shape? Enjoy bad design with a $60 price tag with a fancy name.
> 
> I actually bought the mouse because I wanted to give it a shot. I actually have it in my hands and it's not a bad oem mouse that's a $70 rip off. I wouldn't hold back if this was a bad mouse since it cost me $100 Canadian. I would be really angry if I got a bad mouse or had to send it back, because it's a giant waste of money. News flash, it's not.
> 
> Also QC issues are not representative from angry nerds complaining on this site. A vocal few aren't the majority, anyone here who is afraid of buying a bad mouse shouldn't listen to the very *few* people who are having issues.
> 
> don't judge a book by it's cover


"stop acting like Finalmouse needs to advertise more and sponsor more teams in order to churn out a better mouse."

What? I haven't said that.
What I basically said is that bigger companies spend more money on things like that, and they also create their own mice.

"just because a shell might be OEM, doesn't make it a bad mouse"
Indeed, I agree with that. However, they spent less money designing the mouse than, let's say, Steelseries.
I didn't say it was a bad thing, I just said that it was overpriced for using an OEM shell and possibly a pcb as well.

"the truth is a $60 mouse from Razer or Steelseries might come with a shape they designed, but it also comes with bad sensors, bad design issues, terrible flaws, heavy weights, oh but you get software you can install, yay! "

S3988 or 3310 are bad sensors? Or they're just bad because "it doesn't have the custom 1337 FM lens"?
What kind of terrible flaws? The Rival is pretty solid, for example.
Weight is personal, some people prefer lightweight mice and others prefer heavy mice. You can't measure quality by that.

I don't really care about having a software, but I'd like to at least be able to customize a few things on my 70$ mouse.
At least turn the LED on/off, change the LOD, change the polling rate, etc. Btw, Zowie mice can do that pretty well without a software.

"This isn't a cheap rip-off, considering it beats 90% of mice from Razer, Steelseries, and logitech. Did you see the g303 shape? Enjoy bad design with a $60 price tag with a fancy name. "

Shape wise? Yes, I gotta agree with you. But comparing the internals? roflmao
And btw, the G303 is 47$ on Amazon right now...

"Also QC issues are not representative from angry nerds complaining on this site. A vocal few aren't the majority, anyone here who is afraid of buying a bad mouse shouldn't listen to the very *few* people who are having issues."

I mean, having a 70$ mouse with this issue is not a problem at all, am I right?


----------



## wmoftw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zibv*
> 
> I bought one already. There's a gap in left side of the shell. You can almost stick a dime through it. The LED light profusely shines through it. I don't seem to be the only one that has this issue.


a literal 'who cares'. it doesn't cause any problems
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> I mean, having a 70$ mouse with this issue is not a problem at all, am I right?


is this the best you guys can come up with? lol

it took me a while to see what that picture was even supposed to prove. oh no minimal light bleed in the shell. once again, who cares. you can't even notice it unless you take a picture and make a point of it. that's how minimal these issues are


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> itt: entitled nerds who have nothing better to do than whine about a mouse company
> could you be anymore snobby about this? please enlighten us as to why he's 'not good at this'.
> 
> the self-righteousness and snobbishness of people here are RIDICULOUS. oh it doesn't have 1000hz, so what? a) you weren't good at games to begin with b) it wouldn't make a difference anyways. 500hz->1000hz doesn't make everything suddenly way better and amazing. there is no noticeable difference between them at all, so it's just another dumb criticism.
> 
> my finalmouse is working perfectly and has no issues. and I bet that's the case for 90% of those mice sold because most people don't say a word when their product works and they're happy with it.
> 
> it's just pathetic and even hypocritical to rip them so much when people literally recommend *kanas and kinzus, some of the worst mice ever made*. people will recommend a sensor with 10cm LOD and advise you to put tape over it, and somehow finalmouse is the crappiest and money hungry company out there? Kim Rom said no to better switches because they cost pennies more, but Jude is somehow the second coming of Satan with the IQ of a rock?
> 
> people are sketched out from finalmouse because they're a small company and think they only care about money... here's a solution, hire more people and call it Steelseries. now people suddenly don't care. you think their intentions are malicious because of the small size of the company, yet size and maliciousness are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> I would wager most people here know nothing of manufacturing or starting/running a business, yet they will run their mouse and complain all day and act like people are stupid to referring to a 'tier 1' manufacturing plant. 99% of the time, those people making the claims have no idea what they're talking about, as evident here.
> 
> once again, my finalmouse tournament pro is working fine, oh my god it must be the only one in existence better call the BBB right now


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> ^ this.
> 
> +1


Agreed +2


----------



## Zibv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> a literal 'who cares'. it doesn't cause any problems


I care. It doesn't mess with performance, but it's still a issue. I just want to know if Finalmouse plans of fixing it.

Don't know why people are glossing over the small stuff. Don't settle. FM seems to take feedback. Give it to them.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> a literal 'who cares'. it doesn't cause any problems
> is this the best you guys can come up with? lol
> 
> it took me a while to see what that picture was even supposed to prove. oh no minimal light bleed in the shell. once again, who cares. you can't even notice it unless you take a picture and make a point of it. that's how minimal these issues are


It's such a minimal problem and easy to fix, yet it's still there on a 70$ mouse.
Not to mention people complaining about buttons rattling and stuff, and also QC problems with the older revs of the FM Ergo.

Just because it doesn't bother you, it doesn't mean that it's not a flaw, neither that it wont bother other people.
It can have a good sensor (nothing special tbh, even compared to other 3310 mice) and a good shell, but is it worth 70$?
For example, the G100s. For me that mouse is pretty good, lightweight, the shape is nice, the AM010 feels great (even better than the 3310 I'd say).
And let's say *if* Logitech decides to add a LED and sell it for $50+, it won't be worth it. It's not a bad mouse, but it's simply not worth the price.

Same applies for the Finalmouse. It's not a bad mouse, it's just not worth 70$ IMO.


----------



## TriviumKM

Scream One: https://twitter.com/finalmouse/status/698574744031883264

Edit: just realized there was was a thread made about the scream one 2 hours ago; derp


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TriviumKM*
> 
> Scream One: https://twitter.com/finalmouse/status/698574744031883264


"The #ScreamOne will be the first finalmouse to have global availability with numerous retailers... So international people can breathe easy!"

Damn, it was about time.
Let's just hope they'll be available in different stores/websites around the globe, and not only on different Amazon stores...


----------



## a_ak57

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> lying and spreading false info? what did they lie about and what false info did they spread? other than the weight being listed incorrectly for the tourny pro, they haven't lied about anything.
> 
> is this the whole 'they said they and pros made the shell but it's oem so they are lying'? because i already proved you guys wrong on that, all it shows is how bad people are at reading comprehension. fm never said they made the shell, nor did a pro.


The ergo's misleading weight has been listed for basically a year now too and it's been brought to their attention multiple times and they even acknowledged it. It's not like they just typoed the TP's weight on their site or something and then changed it after someone pointed it out. But hey, can't worry about reality when you need to DC anti-consumer marketing.


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Self-entitled people like you are hilarious.


LOL did someone hurt your feelings calling a low quality brand bad


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> LOL did someone hurt your feelings calling a low quality brand bad


I'm not going to get in a childish flaming war with you, but the fact that your opening statement to me was "LOL", I don't think I need to say much more to you now do I?


----------



## hza

lol = laughing out loud

I'm sorry I was laughing, but still.... Bad feelings cause somone called your favorite brand bad?


----------



## SmashTV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> there actually isn't a huge difference.


Yeah. Surfing through the leftover bins in China is just as good as having R&D in your company. Heard it here first folks!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> what razer does with their money/budget (advertising, sponsorships) has no bearing on the quality of their products. razer mice are consistently bad, same with steelseries. you just proved how stupid it is to ask those kind of questions.


Dare I say you're harping on a vocal minority stance about quality on these manufacturer's mice, while you're having much ado about the very same thing?

Pot and kettle go out on date. Story at 11.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> how about IS THIS MOUSE AS GOOD AS THIS ONE?


Well in terms of FM, actually nothing really you couldn't do yourself with similar quality.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> stop acting like Finalmouse needs to advertise more and sponsor more teams in order to churn out a better mouse.


Don't think anyone feels that way otherwise people would be happy that Scream is on board.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> just because a shell might be OEM, doesn't make it a bad mouse.


It wasn't that it's OEM. It was another company's complete mold with a bad sticker over the logo and the claim that it was custom made by FinalMouse.

Jude's hilarious attempt at using jargon to confuse the readers, lying about the initial firmware, and so on has made people skeptical about other products from FM (such as asymmetrical release). Why is that such an issue?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> It doesn't feel cheap


Subjective.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> and it works. the truth is a $60 mouse from Razer or Steelseries might come with a shape they designed, but it also comes with bad sensors, bad design issues, terrible flaws, heavy weights, oh but you get software you can install, yay!


And there's mice from them that come with a rather great package internally and externally.

Plus the software! Yay! Support even at a reduced price.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> you're just judging it for face value, which is mistake number one.


Someone is awfully picky and choosy when it comes to what people say about what mice.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> When you say 'oem mouse', people think of cheap WMO rip-offs.


Which are clones using another company's shell and generic internals.

Oh hey sounds familiar...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> This isn't a cheap rip-off, considering it beats 90% of mice from Razer, Steelseries, and logitech.


Subjective and debatable.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> Did you see the g303 shape? Enjoy bad design with a $60 price tag with a fancy name.


Again, subjective.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> I actually bought the mouse because I wanted to give it a shot. I actually have it in my hands and it's not a bad oem mouse that's a $70 rip off. I wouldn't hold back if this was a bad mouse since it cost me $100 Canadian. I would be really angry if I got a bad mouse or had to send it back, because it's a giant waste of money. News flash, it's not. It doesn't feel cheap at all.


You are free to spend your money the way you want, don't see why you're defending that.

Feeling cheap is subjective. Obviously SOME people have gripes but it's in the hand of the person that makes that call.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> Also QC issues are not representative from angry nerds complaining on this site. A vocal few aren't the majority, anyone here who is afraid of buying a bad mouse shouldn't listen to the very *few* people who are having issues.


Says the guy ****ting on Razer, Steelseries, and Logitech for quality?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> don't judge a book by it's cover


But if the book had the cover and pages of another book bound in should users not be skeptical?


----------



## kaptchka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> itt: entitled nerds who have nothing better to do than whine about a mouse company
> could you be anymore snobby about this? please enlighten us as to why he's 'not good at this'.
> 
> the self-righteousness and snobbishness of people here are RIDICULOUS. oh it doesn't have 1000hz, so what? a) you weren't good at games to begin with b) it wouldn't make a difference anyways. 500hz->1000hz doesn't make everything suddenly way better and amazing. there is no noticeable difference between them at all, so it's just another dumb criticism.
> 
> my finalmouse is working perfectly and has no issues. and I bet that's the case for 90% of those mice sold because most people don't say a word when their product works and they're happy with it.
> 
> it's just pathetic and even hypocritical to rip them so much when people literally recommend *kanas and kinzus, some of the worst mice ever made*. people will recommend a sensor with 10cm LOD and advise you to put tape over it, and somehow finalmouse is the crappiest and money hungry company out there? Kim Rom said no to better switches because they cost pennies more, but Jude is somehow the second coming of Satan with the IQ of a rock?
> 
> people are sketched out from finalmouse because they're a small company and think they only care about money... here's a solution, hire more people and call it Steelseries. now people suddenly don't care. you think their intentions are malicious because of the small size of the company, yet size and maliciousness are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> I would wager most people here know nothing of manufacturing or starting/running a business, yet they will run their mouse and complain all day and act like people are stupid to referring to a 'tier 1' manufacturing plant. 99% of the time, those people making the claims have no idea what they're talking about, as evident here.
> 
> once again, my finalmouse tournament pro is working fine, oh my god it must be the only one in existence better call the BBB right now


This is everything. My finalmouse tournament pro is working fine as well, and so is my summer edition mouse. And by fine I mean great.


----------



## Maximillion

Honestly I'm pretty happy with my Tourney Pro. I don't have any issues (light bleed, rattling, etc). The build quality isn't record-breaking but it's suitable for me (durability, grip). I guess I just got lucky or whatever but all allegations of shenanigans aside, FM managed to push out a product that worked for me at a time where no one else really could.

I guess it's somewhat easy for me to say as a now "satisfied customer" but seeing all this is something I really can't help but laugh at. There's never been a perfect mouse made for you, that's why you're anticipating every release/revision from virtually every brand on the block. So I really don't see why FM is being plagued as some ominous, villainous entity (lets be honest, there's not a huge "team" there) that's trying to screw the gaming world over. It's not about that at all, it's about _you_ being let down by *insert defendant here* yet again so in the downtime between the next cluster of releases, the bashing of current products continue.

Are FM products overpriced? Yep. Does the same apply to the majority of other companies? Yep...at least to some degree. The point is, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day _if_ you end up with a product that you're satisfied with. That _is_ why you spend your disposable income on gaming peripherals, right? To get something you want? And that's the real source of a lot of frustration here. It's not about the money exclusively, it's the fact you "try" over and over again and can't seem to catch your break. Product after product is announced/released and every time it's another letdown.

I'm looking forward to both the Scream One and the new ergo shape based on my current experiences with the TP. Sorry if this comes off as fanboyish, it's not. I've stated my feelings and concerns towards some of FM's practices several times. It just so happened one of their releases worked out for me, I'm not giving them some special "pass" on a pure business level.

I guess the good thing for you guys that were let down this go-around is we're now in the 3360 era so hopefully you won't have to depend/worry on FM since there should be a good bunch of alternatives from competitors down the pipeline (some of which I myself will undoubtedly be intrigued by).


----------



## hza

No one with technical knowledge defends FinalMouse. I see only people defending a 70 USD/EUR purchase. And a rep talking bs. Just saying.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

I will be patiently waiting the Scream One


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> No one with technical knowledge defends FinalMouse. I see only people defending a 70 USD/EUR purchase. And a rep talking bs. Just saying.


What does technical knowledge have to do with it? I (presumably wrongly) assumed most people here wanted a product that suits their needs, usually while playing games. I'm really starting to wonder if this a forum of gaming enthusiasts or just people wanting a piece of flawless bleeding-edge technology to marvel over in a glass case.

Once again, why price is the point that spearheads this discussion is beyond me. I got 2 ergo classic FM for free (first of which had a shell imperfection and loose side-button) before I ever actually "purchased" a product from them. That purchase ended up being a great fit for me, with no physical or performance problems). I can only speak for myself, but I'm "loyal" to whatever brand suits my current needs. Had the TP not been a shape I preffered, it would have simply been returned and the S1 would be of no interest to me. That was the plan from the get-go. I'm starting to see how people that actually like and use the G303 with no problem feel...

But like I said, it's quite nice that more technically-proper non-FM products should be around the corner that will save the day.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> The ergo's misleading weight has been listed for basically a year now too and it's been brought to their attention multiple times and they even acknowledged it. It's not like they just typoed the TP's weight on their site or something and then changed it after someone pointed it out. But hey, can't worry about reality when you need to DC anti-consumer marketing.


When people asked CPate about the weight of Logitech mice he cut the cable from the mouse and weighed it. Then he had the website people put the correct weight within a few days.


----------



## qsxcv

meanwhile they still haven't fixed the tumblr post claiming 3360 to be fixed framerate
http://finalmouse.tumblr.com/post/137315156761/finalmouse-custom-pro-shop-made-to-order-mouse


----------



## hza

@Maximillion Because that price is too high for that offering. I paid around 50 Euro for G502/303. Technically FMs are behind, a lot. If you like it, keep using it. I don't try to tell you to stop using it. I will personally just not give them any kind of support. I don't want to support someone who charges a lot of money for stuff and keeps low quality in future products.You'll maybe say they'll improve. Right now I just don't see any intention from them to do so. I rather see their rep writing basically nothing on forums. Simple as that.


----------



## IlIkeJuice

I wouldn't mind if it was $30-$35. A low budget Coolermaster perhaps. But even these have better QC and attention to detail. And for 'pro' aspirations, that's a cardinal sin. It's suppose to be a tool. Reliable, well built, with good materials that withstand heavy, continuons usage. That's what makes pro stuff expensive and desirable.

My FM is a $30 product. Zowies too BTW. There is nothing 'pro' about these. Zowies are better built at least.

I still use my Zowie and FM. They are light, plug-and-play, and no have problem tracking. No issues with button thus far. But pro? LOL.


----------



## the1freeMan

This thread is hilarious.. wait didn't someone already say that?

Btw 3.4GHz is already enough, if you want a 4GHz or more cpu you're just bad at gaming and wouldn't notice.
Oh and don't forget that awesome chassis with "Donald Trump" written all over. That's only aesthetics. Only a fool cares for that, get the chassis it's awesome!

Guess some people just have to tell everybody how nearsighted and gullible they are.

Btw get popcorn ready for their "custom implementation" of the 3360.


----------



## ramraze

People are new to forums I guess. This is the place where we voice or concerns to be heard, not to whine. You are not asked to read everything. If you don't like that people are whining go to facebook where fanboys are praising fm as the most amazing mouse ever made, whereas it just isn't. Technically speaking, it's one of the most underwhelming products. If we don't whine, nothing will ever change.
Please get that. Don't whine about us voicing concerns. If you're annoyed then go punch a boxing bag.

Edit: it's like x-factor. The judges voice their criticism so that the person can be aware of what they need to improve and unfortunately, show whether their place is on the arena or not. If the judges only praised the singers, we'd have terrible songwriters.
Same here. If we only praised, we'd get 150 usd synapse 3090 125 hz polling rate interpolated no QC 150 gram mice. Now I, for one, don't want that.


----------



## Alya

^ +1

If you don't tell someone they're doing something wrong then they will never know, and most companies close their eyes and plug their ears until the racket is so loud it can no longer be ignored, so don't take people bringing up the same things over and over again as whining, we're not whining, we are voicing our concerns and if our voice isn't heard then we do our best to make it heard. FM is a lot better than a lot of other companies in the fact that they can admit that their products can use some changing, it's obvious because they're dropping the 3310 and putting a 3360 in a mouse (oooo my excitement for that.) and they're developing their own shapes now, as well as changing the MCU to remove the smoothing.

They listen better than most companies and I do give them that, they're not pulling an SS at least and shoving the same trash in the same mouse with another colored shell over and over and over again expecting approval instead of taking care of the actual problems, that being said there has been problems with FM's marketing where they have said things that aren't entirely true (I'm not saying they're intentionally lying, maybe they're honest mistakes. Benefit of the doubt.) like the weight of the ergo being measured with a few missing portions of the mouse (has that been fixed yet?) and that one tumblr post where they say the 3360 has a static framerate(?) and that happens.

I'm happy that they at least listen to their customers to an extent, most of these bigger corporations do the same thing over and over again which results in the same complaints, Logitech and their alien shapes which fit some people very well, Razer and their poor quality control, Steelseries and their...what do they do right again?


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> I wouldn't mind if it was $30-$35. A low budget Coolermaster perhaps. But even these have better QC and attention to detail. And for 'pro' aspirations, that's a cardinal sin. It's suppose to be a tool. Reliable, well built, with good materials that withstand heavy, continuons usage. That's what makes pro stuff expensive and desirable.
> 
> My FM is a $30 product. Zowies too BTW. There is nothing 'pro' about these. Zowies are better built at least.


I wouldn't go as far as saying Zowie mice are a $30 product. I haven't paid over $60 for a Zowie mouse. Current Zowie mice are more like a $45 product.


----------



## wmoftw

i don't think anyone is saying no criticisms shouldn't be made. i believe the point is the snobby, disgusting attitude towards finalmouse and their reps here.

finalmouse will change and fix things with criticism, it's the free market. if they keep making garbage, it won't sell and they will be out of business.

also, do you people ever consider the cost of creating a mouse shell, versus buying an existing one? it's much more expensive to initially start creating shells, it requires a lot more capital than buying a lot of existing shells. unless you're given free money from a rich friend, you're going to have to budget correctly and not spend a stupid amount of money creating a shell. you work your way up and start small, like fm is doing.


----------



## hza

I wouldn't call FM or Feenix a company. I wouldn't say they weren't lying intentionally. I wouldn't say they're trying to improve anything. And I doubt very much they are able to develop their own shape. I hope for FM fans I'm wrong regarding future products.


----------



## Zay86

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> I wouldn't call FM or Feenix a company. I wouldn't say they weren't lying intentionally. I wouldn't say they're trying to improve anything. And I doubt very much they are able to develop their own shape. I hope for FM fans I'm wrong regarding future products.


Yeah, atleast those much hated companies like Logitech, Razer or Steelseries have their own shells, meaning they have something unique and they can call it their own innovation without lying...

OEM shell and marketing it as: We designed (FM) best ergonomical shape for gamers is just pure BS, much worse than the marketing that "mainstream" manufacturers like Logitech, Razer or Steelseries do...

And FM basicly admits it's not happy with the quality of their product stating, that their planning changing factories, what about these early adopters (could call it crowdfunding), how are you (FM) gonna thank the customers, that you basicly cheap out vs the new customers who will get better quality product if FM changes factories...


----------



## Buttnose

Any 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch or mouse feet available for the FM2015 yet?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zay86*
> 
> what about these early adopters (could call it crowdfunding), how are you (FM) gonna thank the customers, that you basicly cheap out vs the new customers who will get better quality product if FM changes factories...


The 1000hz/mcu smoothing switch seems to me to be an easy way for Finalmouse to show their appreciation for early adopter support, in fact it's something they said they would make available when the mcu smoothing discussion first came up. But they don't seem to want to go down that route now for fear of making their newer products not seem like a worthwhile enough upgrade to FM2015 users.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> In regards to the replacement mousefeet. We figure that with the growing population of FM owners a third party will soon provide FM feet on their own.... With the current demand for them we don't see why this would not pop up in the marketplace very soon. That being said if we do not start seeing FM marketed mousefeet within the next month or two we will provide them ourselves and establish a point of sale to purchase them.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Going on 6 months and two further Finalmouse product releases since this post, still waiting for those mousefeet!


----------



## popups

They should have at least made the TP use IntelliMouse feet.


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IlIkeJuice*
> 
> I still use my Zowie and FM. They are light, plug-and-play, and no have problem tracking. No issues with button thus far. But pro? LOL.


"plug and play"


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wmoftw*
> 
> also, do you people ever consider the cost of creating a mouse shell, versus buying an existing one? it's much more expensive to initially start creating shells, it requires a lot more capital than buying a lot of existing shells. unless you're given free money from a rich friend, you're going to have to budget correctly and not spend a stupid amount of money creating a shell. you work your way up and start small, like fm is doing.


But that is exactly the reason why people say that FM is overpriced... they get flak because the profit margin they go for is huge. But then you also get 3 years warranty, I don't know how that decreases it again, considering that some people already got 3 units replaced.

Personally I don't mind their marketing although a lot of it is factually incorrect. At the end of the day the product itself is probably just what the people who go for that type of marketing want. I'm still intrigued by the shape.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> But then you also get 3 years warranty


Honestly i'd get consistent good build quality over 3 years warranty any time.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Honestly i'd get consistent good build quality over 3 years warranty any time.


Well of course the mouse shouldn't have troubles like wobbly buttons or light bleed in the first place, but I'd imagine most gamers wear down their switches within 3 years, so if everyone would actually use their warranty... and you can't do anything about switches getting defective (as long as you stay within the traditional Omron/Huano/...switches)


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I'd imagine most gamers wear down their switches within 3 years


I spent 12 years with the same mouse. Switches are Zippy though. By good build quality i mean something matching Logitech MX series. And i dont even mind spending $80 or something if it lasts.


----------



## kukuboy

Is there any issues with the sensor in this mouse? How is it compared to DeathAdders sensor?

Really looking forward to get the 2016 Ergo but still kinda scared to get one with some issues :/


----------



## kiz3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kukuboy*
> 
> Is there any issues with the sensor in this mouse? How is it compared to DeathAdders sensor?
> 
> Really looking forward to get the 2016 Ergo but still kinda scared to get one with some issues :/


Without opening up the smoothing debate again, the sensor seems pretty flawless.


----------



## PU skunk

Cmon....It's pretty but dont' put some one else's name under my trigger finger. It's creepy. I deserve credit for all those missed shots! Don't make me get out the sandpaper.


----------



## roz133

Jude, plz keep it plain and simple like the TP. Black and without the name. Maybe even take off the led


----------



## Dylan Nails

mfw 80-90 dollar mouse with led's u cant turn off and have to use set dpi steps from them instead of any dpi u want, on top of it looking tacky


----------



## stephenk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PU skunk*
> 
> 
> 
> Cmon....It's pretty but dont' put some one else's name under my trigger finger. It's creepy. I deserve credit for all those missed shots! Don't make me get out the sandpaper.


Looks like the "perma led" is here to stay. I'm a fan of both the Pro and Ergo but confused by the company. Jude chimed in clarifying the name "Final Mouse" back when the 15 Ergo dropped... something about designing a mouse with the community in mind first; the final mouse you buy. After skimming across the several threads here, Reddit.. and even their Facebook... wasn't popular opinion that they drop the light altogether if it can't be turned off? Now we have the 2016 Ergo followed by the Tournament Pro and both still have the same LED issue. This is one of the few major complaints that appear to be addressed by Jude in professional fashion "We're looking into this and will pass it along" that go ignored. I'm left scratching my head wondering why he created an account here. With that said, I actually love the mouse. I think its awesome that Jude reaches out to the community with a positive attitude despite the negative backlash. The light isn't a deal breaker for me, but releasing a new mouse with the same problems and knowing its a problem is strange business. Its just a super bright LED.. nothing special, lol. Other complaints include the lack of software.. I understand the "plug and play" advertising, but a simple interface wouldn't take away from the marketing.. especially if its limited in function. I suggest brightness levels only. The Ducky Secret actually nailed it with a feature packed mouse that doesn't require software, but its heavy and I prefer the FM feels... maybe FM and Ducky should hook up


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stephenk*
> 
> something about designing a mouse with the community in mind first


i think this is the main reason many of us are disappointed


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> mfw 80-90 dollar mouse with led's u cant turn off and have to use set dpi steps from them instead of any dpi u want, on top of it looking tacky


Don't forget that you can't change the LOD and even the polling rate as well.


----------



## popups

I was planning on trying out the Scream1, but after seeing what it is I have decided to spend money on other things. I rather buy another WMO, an IE3 and a G100S. I might even buy a Zowie ZA13 just for the shell.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> mfw 80-90 dollar mouse with led's u cant turn off and have to use set dpi steps from them instead of any dpi u want, on top of it looking tacky
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget that you can't change the LOD and even the polling rate as well.
Click to expand...

there's no official confirmation of this for the scream1 right?

on one hand, they are supposedly designing the firmware and (iirc) pcb themselves... which makes adding controls for the illumination and whatever trivial.
on the other hand, it is finalmouse after all


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> there's no official confirmation of this for the scream1 right?
> 
> on one hand, they are supposedly designing the firmware and (iirc) pcb themselves... which makes adding controls for the illumination and whatever trivial.
> on the other hand, it is finalmouse after all


Seeing that the LED is in the exact same place, I am assuming they are using the same mold as the TP. They likely only changed the bottom shell to accept the 3360.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> Don't forget that you can't change the LOD and even the polling rate as well.


Or angle snapping.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> mfw 80-90 dollar mouse with led's u cant turn off and have to use set dpi steps from them instead of any dpi u want, on top of it looking tacky


Wouldn't it be better to spend that money on a Hakko FX-888D?


----------



## Dylan Nails

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Seeing that the LED is in the exact same place, I am assuming they are using the same mold as the TP. They likely only changed the bottom shell to accept the 3360.
> Or angle snapping.
> Wouldn't it better to spend that money on a Hakko FX-888D?


asus sica + 6-7 chipotle bowls


----------



## Shwiqo6434

..


----------



## bond10

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *przem33k*
> 
> Przemek : what did u change in your mouse?
> GuardiaN : what do u maen
> GuardiaN : mean
> Przemek : u have white scroll wheel, afaik kinzu sudden attack comes with black
> GuardiaN : its my old
> GuardiaN : kinzu v1
> GuardiaN : i have only sudden attack cover
> GuardiaN : and buttons
> GuardiaN : inside
> Przemek : so the sensor is from kinzu v1, yes?
> GuardiaN : yes, this is 5 years old kinzu v1
> GuardiaN : im cjust changing buttons
> GuardiaN : and cover
> Przemek : ok
> Przemek : but youre not using the latest firmware which causes huge accel and prediction?
> GuardiaN : no idea, havent changed it for a long itme
> Przemek : ok, thanks 4 info


lol, top awper in the world doesn't know if he has mouse accel or not....very curious


----------



## Shwiqo6434

..


----------



## zekron

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *przem33k*
> 
> Przemek : what did u change in your mouse?
> GuardiaN : what do u maen
> GuardiaN : mean
> Przemek : u have white scroll wheel, afaik kinzu sudden attack comes with black
> GuardiaN : its my old
> GuardiaN : kinzu v1
> GuardiaN : i have only sudden attack cover
> GuardiaN : and buttons
> GuardiaN : inside
> Przemek : so the sensor is from kinzu v1, yes?
> GuardiaN : yes, this is 5 years old kinzu v1
> GuardiaN : im cjust changing buttons
> GuardiaN : and cover
> Przemek : ok
> Przemek : but youre not using the latest firmware which causes huge accel and prediction?
> GuardiaN : no idea, havent changed it for a long itme
> Przemek : ok, thanks 4 info


Cool! Thanks for clearing it up and actualy asking him.


----------



## Dylan Nails

***, guardian is a top 5 awper in the world, and he uses kinzu v1 l0l? imagine if he had kinzu shape + 3366


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dylan Nails*
> 
> ***, guardian is a top 5 awper in the world, and he uses kinzu v1 l0l? imagine if he had kinzu shape + 3366





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



will probably play the same with accel on



really wish there a kinzu like shape mouse with no accel and two side buttons as well.

G303 is good but man it has a couple of things I dislike, and is not even the shape..


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daunow*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> will probably play the same with accel on
> 
> 
> 
> really wish there a kinzu like shape mouse with no accel and two side buttons as well.
> 
> G303 is good but man it has a couple of things I dislike, and is not even the shape..


Have you tried the ZA13?


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Have you tried the ZA13?


Does zowie has 2000 dpi as an option?


----------



## Klopfer

No


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> No


Guessing it has 400 - 800 - 1600 -3200

I might buy it just to try it out and refund it, pretty easy with amazon, but don't feel like wasting $65


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> I spent 12 years with the same mouse. Switches are Zippy though. By good build quality i mean something matching Logitech MX series. And i dont even mind spending $80 or something if it lasts.


12 years?? Talk about a long term relationship. What's your secret? Lol


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> 12 years?? Talk about a long term relationship. What's your secret? Lol


That's impressive, but I'm pretty sure a mouse is not designed to be used for that long. Let alone outdated sensor etc. But whatever rocks your boat. I wouldn't want to use the same mouse for more than 5 years.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> That's impressive, but I'm pretty sure a mouse is not designed to be used for that long. Let alone outdated sensor etc. But whatever rocks your boat. I wouldn't want to use the same mouse for more than 5 years.


I would like to be able to use the same mouse for more than 5 years.

I don't see the benefit to the consumer for a great mouse to be discontinued within 3 years or it breaking within that time.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> 12 years?? Talk about a long term relationship. What's your secret? Lol


Well, i kinda was attached to it ^)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I wouldn't want to use the same mouse for more than 5 years.


Why, if it feels comfortable?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Well, i kinda was attached to it ^)
> Why, if it feels comfortable?


Not the same unit. I'd rebuy it. Well i dunno cause it wears down. And if there is an updated model like mx518-g400-g400s(quite similar) of course I would upgrade.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Not the same unit. I'd rebuy it. Well i dunno cause it wears down. And if there is an updated model like mx518-g400-g400s(quite similar) of course I would upgrade.


I would not "upgrade" to a 2016 Diamondback from my 2003/2004 Plasma Diamondback.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> I would not "upgrade" to a 2016 Diamondback from my 2003/2004 Plasma Diamondback.


Yeah, hardly my point. Ofc makes only sense if it's a worthy upgrade. I know people who are boasting about their old mx518, which is like 7 years old and still working. That is what I meant. Definitely worth to upgrade.


----------



## bruzanHD

So now that it's been out for a while, how is the QC on the 2016 ergo? Anyone have any complaints aboit anything like rattling or it feeling not durable?


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> So now that it's been out for a while, how is the QC on the 2016 ergo? Anyone have any complaints aboit anything like rattling or it feeling not durable?


Had 0 issues with my 2016 Ergo, no rattling whatsoever, buttons felt good as well. Much better than my 2015.


----------



## rondawgyo

I've had my 2016 ergo for about a week but have no experience with the 2015 edition. I'm still trying to get used to the mouse but I definitely don't like the clicks, they feel very spongey and I find myself clicking without really meaning to often.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Not the same unit. I'd rebuy it. Well i dunno cause it wears down. And if there is an updated model like mx518-g400-g400s(quite similar) of course I would upgrade.


Unfortunately they never released an update for MX310, and all the wear there was is the paint getting off in some places, which is hardly important.


----------



## Ironixization

I recently bought the 2016 Ergo; Probably gonna switch to the ScreaM1 when it releases..

Pros
Most precise mouse; laser whatever I have used.
Nice feel to it, extremely comfortable.
Good-ish build quality.

Cons
The right click sometime rubs on something, DPI button I think, because the right side of the mouse has a bulge up and feels different compared to high quality right.


----------



## Ironixization

Edit: high quality left


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ironixization*
> 
> I recently bought the 2016 Ergo; Probably gonna switch to the ScreaM1 when it releases..
> 
> Pros
> Most precise mouse; laser whatever I have used.
> Nice feel to it, extremely comfortable.
> Good-ish build quality.
> 
> Cons
> The right click sometime rubs on something, DPI button I think, because the right side of the mouse has a bulge up and feels different compared to high quality right.


Doesn't sound exactly like good build quality by the sound of it.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bruzanHD*
> 
> So now that it's been out for a while, how is the QC on the 2016 ergo? Anyone have any complaints aboit anything like rattling or it feeling not durable?


I have a 2016 and it still has that feel. There is nothing i can just say is bad like rattling or stuff but the mouse buttons suck and the quality is just the same as the 2015 it just does not feel as robust as even other poor quality mice like the deathadder and the rival 300 and 100.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> I have a 2016 and it still has that feel. There is nothing i can just say is bad like rattling or stuff but the mouse buttons suck and the quality is just the same as the 2015 it just does not feel as robust as even other poor quality mice like the deathadder and the rival 300 and 100.


I mean Finalmouse is limited to the build quality at hand, because of the choice of factory(motospeed.cc). It's just sort of bs at the moment, at least if compared to any other big brand.
You can't really expect them to improve it so much so fast. It's out of their hands mostly, imo.

I mean it's a lottery whether you get a good unit or not. I have never seen that many users having that many issues with a single company, let alone a single product. I appreciate what they are doing, using good and user-friendly shells. Also, it's great that they're communicating with us.
However, they can't ask this price for this quality. It feels like a crime.
Also, it feels wrong how much false info has been spread, as still at this point, more details are being spread as false intormation.

I was interested in the TP but my conscience just told me: 'don't do it'. Somehow the whole brand feels wrong and hollow.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I mean Finalmouse is limited to the build quality at hand, because of the choice of factory(motospeed.cc). It's just sort of bs at the moment, at least if compared to any other big brand.
> You can't really expect them to improve it so much so fast. It's out of their hands mostly, imo.
> 
> I mean it's a lottery whether you get a good unit or not. I have never seen that many users having that many issues with a single company, let alone a single product. I appreciate what they are doing, using good and user-friendly shells. Also, it's great that they're communicating with us.
> However, they can't ask this price for this quality. It feels like a crime.
> Also, it feels wrong how much false info has been spread, as still at this point, more details are being spread as false intormation.
> 
> I was interested in the TP but my conscience just told me: 'don't do it'. Somehow the whole brand feels wrong and hollow.


I was going to buy a screamone but i recently got a da chroma for dirt cheap and have been loving it. I think I will be sticking with it unless the scream one takes it to a new level.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> I was going to buy a screamone but i recently got a da chroma for dirt cheap and have been loving it. I think I will be sticking with it unless the scream one takes it to a new level.


It won't.

Continue being happy.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It won't.
> 
> Continue being happy.


+1


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It won't.
> 
> Continue being happy.


Same opinion here. Stick to whatever you like. It gives you such a performance boost as well.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Same opinion here. Stick to whatever you like. It gives you such a performance boost as well.


I agree. When you stick to something you woll see the improvement in your game.


----------



## PU skunk

A raw mouse with slightly higher dpi / hz than a IE3.0 / WMO is all I ever wanted. It's not a tall order but if the S1 turns out as promised (no smoothing!), I'll bite again.


----------



## Fragil1ty

So today, I received my 2 Finalmouse Tournament Editions that were sent by Finalmouse themselves in order to try and rectify some of the issues that I had been having and w/ me having to go through three of their mice.

So below I have a full gallery of images, if you would care to check them out.

But in regards to the mice themselves?

One of them is perfect, no issues what so ever.


No bleeding lights
No gaps in the casing
No wobble on the left or right mouse click and the buttons feel very sturdy
This to me is what the mouse should have been from the get go and this definitely feels to me (with having 5 of these mice in total now) a mouse from the new batch for sure.

On the other hand, one of the other mice is not so perfect and that has the same issues as before (light bleeding through and the wobble/loose feeling on mb1/mb2), so it seems to me that they have sent me one from batch 1 and another from batch 2, which in all fairness, they didn't have to send me a mice at-all, they could have just ignored my posts, my e-mails and then that would have been that.

I am extremely appreciative that Finalmouse have taken the time to get my replacement mice and one from the new batch in order to try and fix my issue, I still have my original FM which I am going to keep hold of, as I believe in supporting companies that I am fond of and FM is one of them, but here is why I am going to be moving away from the Finalmouse and towards the Logitech G303 when Payday comes around at the end of the month.

A friend of mine had a birthday recently and he bought the G303 and I tried it and it just feels leagues above the Finalmouse.


Better build quality
Better sensor
No issues in terms of wobble on MB1 and MB2
I thought I wouldn't like the size of the mouse and the feel of it, but it's something that you adapt to very quickly, so because of this I'll be getting it at the end of the month and also, it's roughly around $10+ cheaper than the FM. I do understand that Logitech is a well more established company, but I just thought I would post to make my issues/opinion known, in case anyone else has/is going through a similar ordeal.

Album:

http://imgur.com/a/9blxZ


----------



## kicksome

Hey frag feel free to sell me one of the "dud" ones for cheap


----------



## daunow

They are actually -$20 on amazon, including tax, at least for me.
did you encounter sensor rattling?


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daunow*
> 
> They are actually -$20 on amazon, including tax, at least for me.
> did you encounter sensor rattling?


The Tournament Pro is unavailable (maybe because of the QC problems?), and the Ergo is not on sale.

:/


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aLv1080*
> 
> The Tournament Pro is unavailable (maybe because of the QC problems?), and the Ergo is not on sale.
> 
> :/


They were available a couple of days ago, that's how I know the difference.









The ergo is 4% off if you can call that a sale, but it's still $70 with tax.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kicksome*
> 
> Hey frag feel free to sell me one of the "dud" ones for cheap


PM me and I'm sure we can sort something out.


----------



## aLv1080

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daunow*
> 
> They were available a couple of days ago, that's how I know the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ergo is 4% off if you can call that a sale, but it's still $70 with tax.


Oh, nvm. I thought you were talking about the Finalmouse, but it was the G303. rip
And the Ergo has been 67$ since the first one, I think.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Are you guys still targeting an April release for the Scream One?


----------



## TburdzZ

I have given up and I am getting out of the hype. I am sad to say that I am now converted to almost all razer gear. Although there quality on mice is garbage the deathadder is the most practical and best feeling mouse for me. I plan on sticking with it regardless of what people say about the sensor. I feel like smoothing is just an excuse as to why we miss shots and it is an excuse not to just practice. Last weekend I practiced my aim and i really am seeing results. I have given up on finding that perfect mouse and am focused more on dealing with what i have. I am also done talking about smoothing accel and stuff. The best na player swag plays with accel on. I am done with the bs and just using what i have.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> I have given up and I am getting out of the hype. I am sad to say that I am now converted to almost all razer gear. Although there quality on mice is garbage the deathadder is the most practical and best feeling mouse for me. I plan on sticking with it regardless of what people say about the sensor. I feel like smoothing is just an excuse as to why we miss shots and it is an excuse not to just practice. Last weekend I practiced my aim and i really am seeing results. I have given up on finding that perfect mouse and am focused more on dealing with what i have. I am also done talking about smoothing accel and stuff. The best na player swag plays with accel on. I am done with the bs and just using what i have.


People that say accel is impossible to master are almost always uninformed or haven't done their research, yes certain forms of accel are random and cannot be predicted but a proper driver like povohats, the Reflex accel, or Quake accel are entirely consistent and you will adjust to them quite quickly. I played at my highest with mouse accel enabled (not in-game though) and using a Razer Mamba which is actually pretty funny to say the least. The reason that in-game accel is implemented badly is because of the Source Engine having acceleration based on FPS (I think even actual mouse movement alone in the engine is based on FPS) which is variable, as long as you don't have a variable of inconsistency you can get used to accel...and no, your arm moving at different speeds is not a variable of inconsistency.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> I have given up and I am getting out of the hype. I am sad to say that I am now converted to almost all razer gear. Although there quality on mice is garbage the deathadder is the most practical and best feeling mouse for me. I plan on sticking with it regardless of what people say about the sensor. I feel like smoothing is just an excuse as to why we miss shots and it is an excuse not to just practice. Last weekend I practiced my aim and i really am seeing results. I have given up on finding that perfect mouse and am focused more on dealing with what i have. I am also done talking about smoothing accel and stuff. The best na player swag plays with accel on. I am done with the bs and just using what i have.


You have just risen above 80% of ocn who just have this idealistic consumerist mentality. That's the right attitude. I plan to do the same as soon as I find a mouse that suits my needs.

Shape is by far the most important thing on a mouse.


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> The best na player swag plays with accel on. I am done with the bs and just using what i have.


is he really the best? I mean.. ok..

also accel is not completely bad like Alya says, however I don't think I can get use to it again.


----------



## TburdzZ

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daunow*
> 
> is he really the best? I mean.. ok..
> 
> also accel is not completely bad like Alya says, however I don't think I can get use to it again.


Not to start a argument or anything but who would i say it better swag aim is very good game sense is very good and team play is very good.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TburdzZ*
> 
> Not to start a argument or anything but who would i say it better swag aim is very good game sense is very good and team play is very good.


Just remember to always say one of the best and it avoids every kind of argument and confusion.







Also shows your intelligence level (not implying anything), but it's just a more sophisticated way of writing and thinking, which is taught at universities.


----------



## crovean

if swag was actually allowed to compete you'd see how much better he is than anyone in NA.


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crovean*
> 
> if swag was actually allowed to compete you'd see how much better he is than anyone in NA.


Don't really understand why they actually banned them, you know I stop caring about CSGO long time ago, but man that decision made by valve was just dumb af to me.


----------



## kingfoxii

What is the difference between the Finalmouse 2015 and 2016?

On amazon here in germany i can only order the 2015.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kingfoxii*
> 
> What is the difference between the Finalmouse 2015 and 2016?
> 
> On amazon here in germany i can only order the 2015.


Supposedly better build quality.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Supposedly better build quality.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> Supposedly better build quality.
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zenith Phantasm*
> 
> *Supposedly* better build quality.


----------



## chr1spe

Are the internals of the 2016 the same as the TP and different from the 2015 as far as like the board itself? I'm kind of confused because people claim the Dreammachine DM1 has a FM circuit board, but the FM 2015 had a multi-piece circuit board that didn't look like what is in the DM1 pictures from what I can tell. I haven't seen pictures of the internals of the FM 2016 or TP though so I was wondering if it is actually the same as those or if it just has the FM symbol on it.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> Are the internals of the 2016 the same as the TP and different from the 2015 as far as like the board itself? I'm kind of confused because people claim the Dreammachine DM1 has a FM circuit board, but the FM 2015 had a multi-piece circuit board that didn't look like what is in the DM1 pictures from what I can tell. I haven't seen pictures of the internals of the FM 2016 or TP though so I was wondering if it is actually the same as those or if it just has the FM symbol on it.


TP and CE have different PCBs.


----------



## popups




----------



## chr1spe

"The sensor is a pixart 3310 sensor. Incredible sensor, used on the g303 by logitech..." lol


----------



## Alya

Hot gluing the buttons to make them not wobbly? Wat.


----------



## Axaion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*


what is this, a video for ants?

also on the buscemi's video he says..
"You always want a good BRAIDED cable"

HAH!

Braided good? my sides have entered orbit and are passing pluto.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> "The sensor is a pixart 3310 sensor. Incredible sensor, used on the g303 by logitech..." lol


Ignorance is bliss. Finalmouse clientele.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Axaion*
> 
> what is this, a video for ants?


The audio on that one video is as if he was using his headset mic while it was on the table.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Ignorance is bliss. Finalmouse clientele.


Perspective is key. It's going to be very different for people who have owned many mice and play competitively versus someone who has owned less than 4 mice and plays casually.


----------



## SmashTV

That review video has to be satire.

Says build quality isn't bad, yet complains about the flimsy loose side buttons.

Totally wrong about the sensor.

Says DPI is his preference then follows up with the user should want a good braided cable.

Says the mouse was designed by CS enthusiasts.

Review of nearly no research put into it.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crovean*
> 
> if swag was actually allowed to compete you'd see how much better he is than anyone in NA.


AZK was* also an amazing awp, and a better rifler than 90% of NA. Not entirely sure if people even paid attention to his robot perfect aim, unlike scream who flicks azk does head tracking.. it's more fun to watch him play arena shooters with the tracking aim though. I believe he was interested in overwatch but not sure if he tried it


----------



## Stats

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> AZK was* also an amazing awp, and a better rifler than 90% of NA. Not entirely sure if people even paid attention to his robot perfect aim, unlike scream who flicks azk does head tracking.. it's more fun to watch him play arena shooters with the tracking aim though. I believe he was interested in overwatch but not sure if he tried it


he is on a team with swag in overwatch and he also played reflex (some quake clone) "competitively" from what i heard


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stats*
> 
> he is on a team with swag in overwatch and he also played reflex (some quake clone) "competitively" from what i heard


As someone who played Reflex a little bit, AZK is one of the best duelers in the game and has insanely good rails.


----------



## TburdzZ

So when is the finalmouse scream one coming out I was going to buy tp but i didnt want to throw my aim off before a lan i was going to so i decided not to and now its out of stock. Besides i am happy with my deathadder but I am just wondering because I will probably buy it just to test it out for the heck of it.


----------



## auzcar

I tried my Tournament Pro in game for the first time yesterday and sadly I gotta say that I'm far from impressed. The shape is awesome and almost perfect for me but the buttons rattle, to the sides as well as up and down and they are extremely unresponsive.

I felt completely disconnected with my aim and at first I thought it was due to the buttons. I kept feeling like the tracking was a bit floaty so I connected the Finalmouse Ergo, the EC1-A and the FK1. The difference was like night and day, I immediately felt connected again and started hitting shots, even though these three mice has a shape that is worse for my grip.

I'm not a technical guy that likes to do a lot of tests, I just go with whatever feels good. I might've gotten a defective unit but I'm 100% sure that this tracks worse than all the other 3310 mice I've tried. Even my GX1 tracks better.

Such a pity.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *auzcar*
> 
> I tried my Tournament Pro in game for the first time yesterday and sadly I gotta say that I'm far from impressed. The shape is awesome and almost perfect for me but the buttons rattle, to the sides as well as up and down and they are extremely unresponsive.
> 
> I felt completely disconnected with my aim and at first I thought it was due to the buttons. I kept feeling like the tracking was a bit floaty so I connected the Finalmouse Ergo, the EC1-A and the FK1. The difference was like night and day, I immediately felt connected again and started hitting shots, even though these three mice has a shape that is worse for my grip.
> 
> I'm not a technical guy that likes to do a lot of tests, I just go with whatever feels good. I might've gotten a defective unit but I'm 100% sure that this tracks worse than all the other 3310 mice I've tried. Even my GX1 tracks better.
> 
> Such a pity.


Well, not surprised sadly given the amount of similar reports. Move on, nothing to see here. *Puts police line*


----------



## auzcar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Well, not surprised sadly given the amount of similar reports. Move on, nothing to see here. *Puts police line*


I haven't really kept updated with peoples test reports so I was definitely suprised by the tracking issues, especially since the Ergo I have track very well IMO, probably about the best I've tried amongst the 3310's.


----------



## doors1991

Finalmouse is overrated,i prefer much more the sensor and build quality in the g502 and mionix castor.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> Finalmouse is overrated,i prefer much more the sensor and build quality in the g502 and mionix castor.


Finalmouse is a bit like ikea's cheapest 10 euro desk/shelves. Manufactured in the cheapest way possible and claimed to be a premium product. Yes it may look good and feel like a good product but even a little pressure in the right place will make it crack.

Yes it has the right dimensions and everything, but inside it's just a low-price option.


----------



## Vantavia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doors1991*
> 
> i prefer much more the sensor and build quality in the g502 and mionix castor.


g502 has the 3366 (a better sensor) ayyy lmao, your preference of the caster is more likely down to weight/ergonomics as it's just an interpolated (unless mionix listened to me) 3310.

If think the stoneus core which weighs a metric ton is good then well, have fun aiming Kappa


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vantavia*
> 
> g502 has the 3366 (a better sensor) ayyy lmao, your preference of the caster is more likely down to weight/ergonomics as it's just an interpolated (unless mionix listened to me) 3310.
> 
> If think the stoneus core which weighs a metric ton is good then well, have fun aiming Kappa


I have GE friends (CSGO) using G502 lol


----------



## Nixtix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> I have GE friends (CSGO) using G502 lol


Whats GE have to do with anything? Still does not mean the mouse it not badly designed ....


----------



## hza

Why should it be bad designed? There are people who find it comfortable. It's not always about "you". Stuff like this is preference. There are people outside of ocn who buy by comfort and don't know anything about sensors and whatnot.


----------



## roz133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nixtix*
> 
> Whats GE have to do with anything? Still does not mean the mouse it not badly designed ....


I've no problems at all with the 502 inspite of its weight. Maybe the fact that I'm a high sensitivity player helps and it would be harder for low sensitivity players but the 502 is a really good mouse as far as I'm concerned. Sensor, shape, clicks everything. The weight being an issue for you does not mean it's a bad design for everyone.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roz133*
> 
> I've no problems at all with the 502 inspite of its weight. Maybe the fact that I'm a high sensitivity player helps and it would be harder for low sensitivity players but the 502 is a really good mouse as far as I'm concerned. Sensor, shape, clicks everything. The weight being an issue for you does not mean it's a bad design for everyone.


While a shape is subjective and the fact that some people like heavier mice can be true. However, a mouse that size is excessively heavy with all the added bells and whistles which unnecessarily add weight. I think he meant the design by how they've added tons of things that don't give a lot of function but a lot of weight.

And one can make the statement that heavier mice are objectively worse for competitive gaming, depending on the game. Now, whether a heavier mouse suits you or other people is a different question, I doubt anyone is debating that


----------



## qsxcv

lighter is better because it's easier to add weight to a light mouse than remove weight from a heavy mouse








e.g. if they made the g502 100g without sacrificing build quality or functionality, and included more weights and places to place weights, no one would complain


----------



## ChieFz

found at reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChieFz*
> 
> found at reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive


That 3310 is so awesome, right? The 9500/9800 can't compete.

I just got my ZA13 and G100S. Glad I didn't spend the money on a FinalMouse.


----------



## ChieFz

for me 3989 is better anyway


----------



## wareya

my KPM doesn't do it so it's probably a problem with the MCU, the "new" SROM, or the settings the MCU is setting


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> my KPM doesn't do it so it's probably a problem with the MCU, the "new" SROM, or the settings the MCU is setting


I was thinking it might be the filtering they use rather than it being the SROM.


----------



## wareya

I doubt it, it would have to be broken in _extremely_ difficult ways.


----------



## Jonagold

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hza*
> 
> I have GE friends (CSGO) using G502 lol


I am GE and I can top the scoreboard while feeling that my aim is off.. Find a mouse that has a decent sensor, decent click delay and most comfortable shape for you.. G502 is good if you like the shape and you can play good with it as well as with many other mouse if you get used to them.

When having a bad aim you can still get kills with good cross-hair placement and timing basically knowing where to keep your cross-hair or what speed to move your cross-hair from the corner when you know enemy is coming to make it sync with the incoming head and just press Mouse1.

Having lot of experience gives you many ways to compensate for bad aiming making you less dependent on your aiming.. So rank doesn't really apply in that context..


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I am GE and I can top the scoreboard while feeling that my aim is off.. Find a mouse that has a decent sensor, decent click delay and most comfortable shape for you.. G502 is good if you like the shape and you can play good with it as well as with many other mouse if you get used to them.
> 
> When having a bad aim you can still get kills with good cross-hair placement and timing basically knowing where to keep your cross-hair or what speed to move your cross-hair from the corner when you know enemy is coming to make it sync with the incoming head and just press Mouse1.
> 
> Having lot of experience gives you many ways to compensate for bad aiming making you less dependent on your aiming.. So rank doesn't really apply in that context..


I've gotten really used to using the AWP as a crutch when my aim is feeling off because even if my spraying/rifle aim feels off, my muscle memory and flicks with the AWP should still be on enough, but if I'm doing really terrible one game and the enemy AWPer is just plain better than me, I usually just try to sit back and play a safer game or contribute in other ways, dropping, planting, lining up smokes, flashing my teammates in, etc


----------



## hza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonagold*
> 
> I am GE and I can top the scoreboard while feeling that my aim is off.. Find a mouse that has a decent sensor, decent click delay and most comfortable shape for you.. G502 is good if you like the shape and you can play good with it as well as with many other mouse if you get used to them.
> 
> When having a bad aim you can still get kills with good cross-hair placement and timing basically knowing where to keep your cross-hair or what speed to move your cross-hair from the corner when you know enemy is coming to make it sync with the incoming head and just press Mouse1.
> 
> Having lot of experience gives you many ways to compensate for bad aiming making you less dependent on your aiming.. So rank doesn't really apply in that context..


I don't doubt that. However, they wouldn't use it, if it wasn't comfortable for their hands. I'm saying G502 is not a mouse you can't aim with. Just defective units of anything would hold you back.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChieFz*
> 
> found at reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive


Someone tell that kid that he should level his elbow with the table if he doesn't want to ruin his wrist in the long run.


----------



## ChinaRep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Someone tell that kid that he should level his elbow with the table if he doesn't want to ruin his wrist in the long run.


Also makes you more consistent and allows you to make larger movements so you don't need to lift so much. It's like he copied a pro's sens but still uses his mouse like someone with a 2 inch 360.


----------



## Maximillion

I used to play like that until I got a more ergonomic setup. My issue is I have long orangutan arms so the only way for me to achieve a proper ~90° elbow angle is to have the surface very close to lap level. I achieved this my getting a desk with a long (~40") pull out keyboard tray that I can also mouse on.


----------



## Melan

Mouse doesn't track properly when not on the pad? Wowzers.


----------



## Vantavia

Message @ [email protected] with requests for optical mouse buttons/scroll wheel, maybe it'll happen







They /claim/ that feedback is forwarded.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melan*
> 
> Mouse doesn't track properly when not on the pad? Wowzers.


What's strange about that video is the mouse appears to be tracking motion as if it's moving right when he is moving left.


----------



## Melan

I remember my FK1 sometimes doing that when hovering above the pad. It was really short turn (more like a twitch in the wrong direction) but I don't remember it snapping to the ground.


----------



## Nixtix

My Avior and Finalmouse Ergo both have that problem where the cursor abruptly snaps to the ground. It typically happens when I lift the mouse up and put it down while still moving. Is this a known problem with 3310 mice?


----------



## agsz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> Someone tell that kid that he should level his elbow with the table if he doesn't want to ruin his wrist in the long run.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChieFz*
> 
> found at reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive


That has to me the most awkward/uncomfortable positioning I've seen, besides this of course:


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nixtix*
> 
> My Avior and Finalmouse Ergo both have that problem where the cursor abruptly snaps to the ground. It typically happens when I lift the mouse up and put it down while still moving. Is this a known problem with 3310 mice?


From what I have seen, it does appear to be a 3310 characteristic.


----------



## Melan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agsz*
> 
> That has to me the most awkward/uncomfortable positioning I've seen, besides this of course:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Who cares about good posture amirite? It doesn't matter that in mid 50s they'll be awkwardly shaped and constantly in pain. Well, most of them anyways.


----------



## Zenith Phantasm

Oh hey that's my posture


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Yes I am seeing my physical therapist still


----------



## SmashTV

That poor kid's wrist is going to explode and he'll blame the mouse for it.


----------



## wareya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> From what I have seen, it does appear to be a 3310 characteristic.


Doesn't happen with my KPM ever


----------



## trism

Never happened for me with the Avior (fw 3.38 beta) or any other PMW3310 mouse (Zowies, KPM (0x0E/0x0F; DCU on/off), FM, Rival you name it). I don't move my mouse like that anyways so it looks more like a user error than a fault in the sensor. Of course sensors track erroneously when they are lifted above the usable tracking distance. The distance my mouse moves when I'm dropping it back to the surface in the time-delta where the LoD affects the tracking is very minimal. This guy seemed to hover the mouse over the pad for several inches while moving it fast. Probably just the typical malfunctioning behavior since malfunctioning speed is much lower for when the picture is unfocused. He needs to either change his playstyle or get a mouse with super low LoD.


----------



## Vantavia

So don't use handjob mouse grip, got it.


----------



## ncck

This week is the scream1 reveal and I believe the TP gets restocked for anyone wondering - announced on their twitter


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> This week is the scream1 reveal and I believe the TP gets restocked for anyone wondering - announced on their twitter


Even Dreammachines managed to have QC good, even with their first batches, regardless of factory being the same. So yea.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> Even Dreammachines managed to have QC good, even with their first batches, regardless of factory being the same. So yea.


Not a good look for FM, I agree.


----------



## Nixtix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Never happened for me with the Avior (fw 3.38 beta) or any other PMW3310 mouse (Zowies, KPM (0x0E/0x0F; DCU on/off), FM, Rival you name it). I don't move my mouse like that anyways so it looks more like a user error than a fault in the sensor. Of course sensors track erroneously when they are lifted above the usable tracking distance. The distance my mouse moves when I'm dropping it back to the surface in the time-delta where the LoD affects the tracking is very minimal. This guy seemed to hover the mouse over the pad for several inches while moving it fast. Probably just the typical malfunctioning behavior since malfunctioning speed is much lower for when the picture is unfocused. He needs to either change his playstyle or get a mouse with super low LoD.


I've done a couple of test to recreate the problem and it seems that if the bottom of the mouse is not parallel with the mouse pad as you are bringing it down, it has a higher chance of spinning to the ground. I play on a fairly low sens in CSGO (1 in-game and 800 dpi) so I do lift the mouse off the pad every couple of swipes to bring it to the center. The problem does not happen while I am hovering the mouse over the pad but rather when I put it back on the mat.

I don't see this playing style as anything out of the ordinary that requires re-adjusting. My friend who plays TF2/UT a lot experienced this problem with his Finalmouse 2015 as well, but only on a couple of occasions. I haven't had this problem happen to me while I used the g502/g303, probably because they have a lower LOD.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> POS. Even Dreammachines managed to have QC good, even with their first batches, regardless of factory being the same. So yea.


Hope my dream is good! Coming tuesday


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wareya*
> 
> Doesn't happen with my KPM ever


I hear a lot of complaints about the Rival doing it.


----------



## kukuboy

Did the IME 3.0 feets fit this Finalmouse Ergo? These default ones seems so thin. Its still sliding good, but i think they will wear out and i will be dragging just the bottom of the mouse on the pad.


----------



## DadeBound

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kukuboy*
> 
> Did the IME 3.0 feets fit this Finalmouse Ergo? These default ones seems so thin. Its still sliding good, but i think they will wear out and i will be dragging just the bottom of the mouse on the pad.


Yes they do. Have to inch them on carefully though otherwise it sits on the rim of the original placement which will make it uneven.


----------



## kukuboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DadeBound*
> 
> Yes they do. Have to inch them on carefully though otherwise it sits on the rim of the original placement which will make it uneven.


Do you have any idea that is the 1mm IME 3.0 feets too thick? Do 1mm affect the performance much?


----------



## DadeBound

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kukuboy*
> 
> Do you have any idea that is the 1mm IME 3.0 feets too thick? Do 1mm affect the performance much?


Not sure which size the hyperglides are but those are the ones I switched the default ones with and they are just fine.


----------



## Shwiqo6434

..


----------



## discoprince

so it seems im having a weird issue with the FM TP on PC startup.
what ends up happening is i turn my PC on and I get some cursor speed variance. the mouse is set to 800dpi but when i start to move it around in the desktop environment it speeds up, then slows down etc...

cycling through the dpi steps fixes the issue but it shouldn't be doing this at all. anyone else experience something like this with their tournament pro? my summer edition classic ergo does not do this.


----------



## bruzanHD

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *discoprince*
> 
> so it seems im having a weird issue with the FM TP on PC startup.
> what ends up happening is i turn my PC on and I get some cursor speed variance. the mouse is set to 800dpi but when i start to move it around in the desktop environment it speeds up, then slows down etc...
> 
> cycling through the dpi steps fixes the issue but it shouldn't be doing this at all. anyone else experience something like this with their tournament pro? my summer edition classic ergo does not do this.


This is a known issue with all FinalMouse models.


----------



## TburdzZ

Go on dm Twitter screamone announced and in depth breakdown. Looks good i will be purchasing it.


----------



## Soo8

What size is the mwheel encoder on the TP? I measures from encoder hexagon's middle to the part where it touches the pcb.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Rocket jump review

http://youtu.be/-AXydSTRKHc


----------



## Alya

I like RocketJumpNinja but every time he says "FPS veteran" or has it in the title, I cringe a little bit.


----------



## agsz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> I like RocketJumpNinja but every time he says "FPS veteran" or has it in the title, I cringe a little bit.


It's probably more appealing when people YouTube search '< insert mouse here > review'. His reviews are great though, he takes it to a whole new level that I think should be required for mouse reviews.

Just got my FinalMouse 2016, while it is a good deal smaller than my Deathadder Chroma, the quality control is superior to the Deathadder Chroma's I've had in every single way. Really didn't expect that either.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agsz*
> 
> It's probably more appealing when people YouTube search ' review>'.


https://www.youtube.com/results?hl=et&q=mouse+review+by+guy+who+plays+video+games

Amusingly, first page results have a Feenix Nascita 2014 review on it lol


----------



## Maximillion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> Amusingly, first page results have a Feenix Nascita 2014 review on it lol


All part of _his_ plan...


----------



## the1freeMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Rocket jump review
> 
> http://youtu.be/-AXydSTRKHc


LED stays on when pc is off... WHAT?!?!? I reiterate they shouldn't be allowed to sell these things.


----------



## agsz

Is it normal for the FinalMouse to show (2) HID-Compliant Mouse in Device Manager under 'Mice and other pointing devices'? My Deathadder(s) & EC1-A only showed one.


----------



## agsz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> LED stays on when pc is off... WHAT?!?!? I reiterate they shouldn't be allowed to sell these things.


My Desktop was off for about ~2 days, and I plugged in the FinalMouse before booting up and it lit up, other mice never did that. the LED is pretty bright too, I can see how it bothers some people.


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agsz*
> 
> My Desktop was off for about ~2 days, and I plugged in the FinalMouse before booting up and it lit up, other mice never did that. the LED is pretty bright too, I can see how it bothers some people.


I guess the issue is rather the overall bad design (I don't mean aesthetics).


----------



## snyggjames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the1freeMan*
> 
> LED stays on when pc is off... WHAT?!?!? I reiterate they shouldn't be allowed to sell these things.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *agsz*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *agsz*
> 
> My Desktop was off for about ~2 days, and I plugged in the FinalMouse before booting up and it lit up, other mice never did that. the LED is pretty bright too, I can see how it bothers some people.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ramraze*
> 
> I guess the issue is rather the overall bad design (I don't mean aesthetics).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guys, this is an issue on a lot of USB devices. The reason is that many people wants to charge their phones etc via the USB while the PC is off. So in your bioses (UEFIs) you have the option to turn this feature off. On gigabyte motherboards its called ErP and this must be enabled (disabled by default). So the issue is that your PCs thinks it needs to charge your mouse, probably some firmware for the finalmouse needs to be updated to get rid of this entirely.
> So if you have this issue go to the bios or UEFI and turn your charge option off or power save mode on.
> Sry for bad quoting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps
Click to expand...


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> That being said, we are very close to sending out beta samples


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We are moving as fast as possible to have samples of multiple variants ready not just for the community/pros to beta test but to also put into production.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> I've said before we have already been playing and testing with it for a while. You will see a firmware without it on a different mcu with the beta samples of the new sensor before the variants even are available. Hopefully we have beta samples sent out by next week. We are waiting on ATC reps to get more chips to us.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Be patient and you will have beta samples as promised, we are going to value the input you give on them.


since you first mentioned it, it's been 6 months

http://finalmouse.tumblr.com/post/140650752681/scream-one-improvements-differences
Quote:


> We expect the Scream One to be available for purchase sometime early-mid april depending on region!


oh okay. so it's march. what's your plan, to give us "beta" samples 1month before the actual product's release?
so what's the point of this "testing"? to give you guys feedback or to promote an already completed product?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> We had to change mcus and change the circuit design recently which was a setback but we finally settled on a new design with an STM controller so once we have these new pcbs fabricated hopefully we can start beta testing.


http://finalmouse.tumblr.com/post/140650752681/scream-one-improvements-differences
Quote:


> The PCB circuity and design was re-engineered by us to utilize the new sensor as well as our new NXP processor.


oh yea "settled" on a STmicro controller less than 2 months ago and then suddenly it's NXP? what the hell are you guys doing? not that there's anything wrong with either brand of mcus, but still, you're going to have to do a lot more than posting 10lines of standard code to convince me that your pcb design and firmware was not simply done by some other odm/oem


----------



## daunow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Rocket jump review
> 
> http://youtu.be/-AXydSTRKHc


Side buttons sound like they are about to crack.. holy.


----------



## SmashTV

Yeah those rjveteran reviews are mostly for Redditors to fawn over.

Wonder why nvc stopped making his. Those were actually decent aside from the latency checks.


----------



## Foclock

Does anyone know what sort of improvements they are speaking of?


----------



## speedyeggtart

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Foclock*
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what sort of improvements they are speaking of?


From what I am reading in the forums - the last shipment had some issues and this next production batch was suppose to fix those issues?


----------



## Gylfen

What happened for the Tournament pro on amazon uk? I know there was a review and they removed it but i was quite some time now.

Any new on whats happening?


----------



## ramraze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Foclock*
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what sort of improvements they are speaking of?


Probably lies. It's as oem as can be. Their site is full of straight up lies.


----------



## john88

I sold my used FM Tournament on ebay for $90, because no supply on amazon haha. The cheap quality issues got to me, im going back to Rival 100.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gylfen*
> 
> What happened for the Tournament pro on amazon uk? I know there was a review and they removed it but i was quite some time now.
> 
> Any new on whats happening?


Long story short, they ****ed up. They put out the FMTE, I bought 4 of them and they all came with the same issues.

* Bad clicks (wobbly buttons)
* Bleeding lights
* Lack of Quality Control

I sold off the ones that I could and I just returned the rest, so they're now off-sale until the new revisions of the product are released and that's when they'll be back on sale.

As stated on their Tumblr, here are the changes to the future batch:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *"finalmouse-tumblr*
> Changes that are also going into the new Tournament Pro batch:
> -Fixed tooling to alleviate loose/rattling clickers
> -Lightbleed fix
> -Reduction of logo/mousewheel light intensity


Now personally, I absolutely loved the Finalmouse and it was sad when I had to get rid of them in place I got a Logitech 303 which feels a lot better. When these fixes are released, I will be buying another model, but I just hope that they've learnt their lesson from the first batch / failures.


----------



## Cyb3r

@fragility how bad was the quality controll issues? cause there's certain other mouse makers that aren't free off that one either (cough razer cough)


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyb3r*
> 
> @fragility how bad was the quality controll issues? cause there's certain other mouse makers that aren't free off that one either (cough razer cough)


he wrote in his post what was wrong with them lol. And razer products generally die after a year of usage - the fm products had issues out of box


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Foclock*
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what sort of improvements they are speaking of?


as said some QC issues, although on the ergo version they seemed to have close to none so idk. The ergo surely has a lot less issues but I saw a hell of a lot less complaints or issues rather with them compared to the TE. Hopefully one change is the side buttons, the pointed 4 & 5's need to go, that alone would make the mouse plenty better.

Mouse feet would be a nice plus as well.


----------



## Cyb3r

ncck i've had luck with my current naga molten it's been going strong for 3y + but when it dies i'm done with razer lol if there weren't so many qc issues with razer i'd stick with them but after 3 naga's i'm done with em lol


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyb3r*
> 
> @fragility how bad was the quality controll issues? cause there's certain other mouse makers that aren't free off that one either (cough razer cough)


I had in total 5 Finalmouse Tournament Editions and all of them had issues, some were better than others, some were usable, they really were.
But all of them had issues with the click rattle as it was known, but hopefully this will now be fixed in the next batch of them, so it shouldn't be too bad. I'm just hoping that they will be learning their lesson and they wont mess up like this in the future.

I've still got my 2015 Ergo, love that mouse to pieces, I'll always keep that as a backup, I just hope they can improve over last time.


----------



## Foclock

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I had in total 5 Finalmouse Tournament Editions and all of them had issues, some were better than others, some were usable, they really were.
> But all of them had issues with the click rattle as it was known, but hopefully this will now be fixed in the next batch of them, so it shouldn't be too bad. I'm just hoping that they will be learning their lesson and they wont mess up like this in the future.
> 
> I've still got my 2015 Ergo, love that mouse to pieces, I'll always keep that as a backup, I just hope they can improve over last time.


What's your hand size and grip style?


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Foclock*
> 
> What's your hand size and grip style?


Medium and Claw for the most part.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Medium and Claw for the most part.


How is claw with the ergo?? I presume as i heard before that it can be uncomfy with that right ledge.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> How is claw with the ergo?? I presume as i heard before that it can be uncomfy with that right ledge.


Love it myself, I used the Ergo from May - August and then it broke down, got a replacement and then used that until about a month ago when I stopped using it for the TE and after that was over, I just switched to the G303.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> Love it myself, I used the Ergo from May - August and then it broke down, got a replacement and then used that until about a month ago when I stopped using it for the TE and after that was over, I just switched to the G303.


Why not go back to it after the TE issues?


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Why not go back to it afte the TE issues?


I wanted to try something new at the time and I had heard great things about the G303, I still prefer the Ergo shape to the G303, but I wanted something new and something fresh. As soon as the new TE's come out, I'll be going straight back to that mouse.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fragil1ty*
> 
> I wanted to try something new at the time and I had heard great things about the G303, I still prefer the Ergo shape to the G303, but I wanted something new and something fresh. As soon as the new TE's come out, I'll be going straight back to that mouse.


Gonna skip the Scream? Lol


----------



## Maximillion

takasta's review: https://youtu.be/8HSTf0zItX0


----------



## Alya

If Takasta says that your mouse is bad when he thinks every mouse is good (literally every single review I have seen from him has been good), you've got a big problem.


----------



## Foclock

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> takasta's review: https://youtu.be/8HSTf0zItX0


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> If Takasta says that your mouse is bad when he thinks every mouse is good (literally every single review I have seen from him has been good), you've got a big problem.


RIP


----------



## trhead

"Basically this video I'm just gonna be **** facing this mouse because how much I really dislike it"

Ouch. You almost never hear him say something like that about a mouse


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> If Takasta says that your mouse is bad when he thinks every mouse is good (literally every single review I have seen from him has been good), you've got a big problem.


Didn't he say the Razer Mamba 2015 was bad?


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Didn't he say the Razer Mamba 2015 was bad?


He mostly says things about how it performs and the build quality, but I don't really see him calling it straight out trash like he did here.

EDIT: "It's not the best in terms of performance, but as far as wireless mice go, it's not that bad in comparison to the G602 and Sensei. I did play a bit of DotA with this and I found it affected me quite a bit, but there's definitely some type of lag that I feel in comparison to my ZA12[...]If you don't care for the smoothing and just want a wireless mouse for photo editing purposes, it can work for you. I think it's not great for gaming[...]"

In summary, he said it's a good wireless mouse but it has lots of smoothing and isn't really suitable for gaming.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhiZaRoaH*
> 
> Gonna skip the Scream? Lol


Not interested in the Scream,
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alya*
> 
> He mostly says things about how it performs and the build quality, but I don't really see him calling it straight out trash like he did here.
> 
> EDIT: "It's not the best in terms of performance, but as far as wireless mice go, it's not that bad in comparison to the G602 and Sensei. I did play a bit of DotA with this and I found it affected me quite a bit, but there's definitely some type of lag that I feel in comparison to my ZA12[...]If you don't care for the smoothing and just want a wireless mouse for photo editing purposes, it can work for you. I think it's not great for gaming[...]"
> 
> In summary, he said it's a good wireless mouse but it has lots of smoothing and isn't really suitable for gaming.


I've never really had an issue with the FM2015, my only gripes w/ the mouse were that it felt a little cheap, the light was too bright and the side buttons were terrible, but other than that? It was a really good mouse and I used that for a good 9+ months I believe.


----------



## qsxcv

delete me, wrong thread


----------



## TburdzZ

I need to order some new mousefeet for my fm ergo what do you all use.


----------



## thybee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello everyone ,
> 
> Thought I would share a couple updates regarding the 2016 model. At the moment we aren't satisfied at all with the ambi prototype shapes so I'll stick with what we are close to happy with.
> 
> Here is a picture of the new side buttons for the 2016 models. In addition to a new side button mold which Was designed the side buttons now also use omron switches. Here is a picture, mind you this is from our own fabricator not full production injection. So still a rough sample.
> 
> 
> 
> As for material changes we are still experimenting. Obviously it seems most people have been asking for a departure away from anything glossy. The side buttons we can make matte , but the real challenge is what to do with the main glossy side on the right and upper left. Unfortunately when we tried other plastics weight was increased substantially, so we don't think that is an option. I will try and share more updates here when we figure something out. As of now texturing the current plastic seems like the best course of action.
> 
> Also since there seems to be a couple individuals here who prefer to have more choice on their sensor settings, I'm asking for permission to see if I can release several firmware flashers here. Obviously these flashers will come with a strict disclaimer that says it is not how the finalmouse is meant to be utilized, and is not the desired tracking feeling we found our In house pros to enjoy... That being said I will try and release the following firmware:
> 
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


Any Updates for Finalmouse 2016 ?


----------



## CorruptBE

Yeah, it's delayed.


----------



## Fragil1ty

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CorruptBE*
> 
> Yeah, it's delayed.


I think I'd rather have more weight than a horrible glossy coating personally, I think that would definitely make the Ergo a more viable option, it's one of the reasons I stopped using it and went to the G303 because of the feel and slip in the hands after hours of gameplay.

I'm still waiting for the Tournament Edition to be live on Amazon, but it seems to be taking a very long time.


----------



## whiteweazel21

Anyone ever strip the braiding on one of these, is there rubber underneath or twisted copper? The mouse is so light, but the cable is so stiff and adds weight to movement even when suspended. Was thinking to try a paracord mod on this...


----------



## qsxcv

afaik all (except diy) braided have rubber/regular insulation underneath


----------



## whiteweazel21

Does anyone know what size jst connector the ergo uses?


----------



## nidzakv

Hi, is there a way to fix loose left mouse klick on FN 2015 SE? Without returning the mice..

It's not a big problem but...

I lost warranty


----------



## benllok

Does anybody else having coating issues with the Finalmouse 2015 SE? I've been using mine on and off for over a year and half and its coating is getting more and more sticky on my unit. The only thing I can do is clean it with a wet fibercloth but it seems like the sticking residue never stops coming out, I just can't get it off completely. In the other hand, the side buttons get stuck sometimes and they aren't even to the touch. I guess I should talk to Support since the warranty time is pretty good. Will report back how it goes!


----------



## Zelva123

Did somebody overclocked Mhz of this mouse over 500? I know there some software out there to do it?


----------



## TitanicSank

How many years am I going to have to wait before I can purchase this mouse in Europe? Already into 2017 and nothing?


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TitanicSank*
> 
> How many years am I going to have to wait before I can purchase this mouse in Europe? Already into 2017 and nothing?


Wrong thread, here is the correct one: http://www.overclock.net/t/1591171/finalmouse-scream-one

Also keep waiting - unfortunately that's all I can say since they seem to have no set release dates what so ever.


----------



## Maximillion

Why spray the market with multiple mice when you can crush the competition with the precision of one deadly device?


----------



## kiz3r

Has anyone had this an issue with M1/M2 switches on their Tournament Pro? Basically my right mouse button had stopped working and when pressed it seemed like it no longer actuated the switch. I have just taken it apart and found the problem...



Not sure how well you can see it but basically the little plastic switch sits horizontally across the (soft!!) plastic bit of the shell that actuates the switch and has now created a groove. They're both worn but M2 has worn to the point of no longer working.

Does anyone have an idea what I could use for a quick fix? I guess new buttons would be the best solution (assume these can be removed?) but I don't know how I'd get some

Old thread I know, but hopefully there's someone still around.


----------



## Soo8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kiz3r*
> 
> Has anyone had this an issue with M1/M2 switches on their Tournament Pro? Basically my right mouse button had stopped working and when pressed it seemed like it no longer actuated the switch. I have just taken it apart and found the problem...
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how well you can see it but basically the little plastic switch sits horizontally across the (soft!!) plastic bit of the shell that actuates the switch and has now created a groove. They're both worn but M2 has worn to the point of no longer working.
> 
> Does anyone have an idea what I could use for a quick fix? I guess new buttons would be the best solution (assume these can be removed?) but I don't know how I'd get some
> 
> Old thread I know, but hopefully there's someone still around.


Even the plastic FM uses is super soft...

Anyway, I would recommend you to file down the plastic ridges on both mouse button plungers, cut out a square from plastic similar thickness to the filed down ridges and glue them on the plungers. Maybe even cut out something similar in shape to the ridges.

Another idea would be trying to fill the hole with cyanoacrylate gel glue and letting it dry. I personally tried this method, worked a treat for me.


----------



## popups

That's not a good thing to see. If the Scream1 is like that it will only be a matter of time before the buttons become problematic or unusable. I wouldn't want to spend $80 on a mouse just to have a timer counting down until the mouse self destructs.


----------



## kiz3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Soo8*
> 
> Even the plastic FM uses is super soft...
> 
> Anyway, I would recommend you to file down the plastic ridges on both mouse button plungers, cut out a square from plastic similar thickness to the filed down ridges and glue them on the plungers. Maybe even cut out something similar in shape to the ridges.
> 
> Another idea would be trying to fill the hole with cyanoacrylate gel glue and letting it dry. I personally tried this method, worked a treat for me.


Thanks for the tips. Yeah I had considered using super glue. I've just put some on and now just waiting for it to dry. I think it'll work, my only concern is that it wont last very long and might make the clicks feel different

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> That's not a good thing to see. If the Scream1 is like that it will only be a matter of time before the buttons become problematic or unusable. I wouldn't want to spend $80 on a mouse just to have a timer counting down until the mouse self destructs.


Exactly. I think the ergo is different having looked at some pictures but I'm not sure if the Scream One plunger/switch setup is the same. If it is, this is an issue that will affect every single one further down the line. I mean I've only had my TP a year...


----------



## aayman_farzand

Why didn't you RMA it? They would've given you a Scream One since they don't sell the others anymore. The first generation of FM nice had pretty bad build quality. It's somewhat better now.


----------



## m0uz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Why didn't you RMA it? They would've given you a Scream One since they don't sell the others anymore. The first generation of FM nice had pretty bad build quality. It's somewhat better now.


Exchanging a terrible product for a not-so-terrible-but-still-terrible product


----------



## Bucake

to be fair, i've seen that kind of wear in other mice as well. though, i can imagine that the composition of the plastic might contribute to how fast or slowly it evolves.
can't remember which brands i've seen it in, but definitely a few razer mice.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0uz*
> 
> Exchanging a terrible product for a not-so-terrible-but-still-terrible product


The first gen FMs used to wear out a lot faster. Can't comment on how the S1 will wear as I've only had it about two months, but I have no complaints.


----------



## kiz3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aayman_farzand*
> 
> Why didn't you RMA it? They would've given you a Scream One since they don't sell the others anymore. The first generation of FM nice had pretty bad build quality. It's somewhat better now.


I'm in touch with them, just waiting to hear what they have to say


----------



## Crisis187

In millimeters, about what is the grip width of the Scream One? Thanks. Nevermind....just saw Zy said about 5.9cm.

May sound crazy lol, but can I underclock the Scream One to 500hz safely? Or will it mess it up?


----------



## thybee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FinalmouseJude*
> 
> Hello everyone ,
> 
> Thought I would share a couple updates regarding the 2016 model. At the moment we aren't satisfied at all with the ambi prototype shapes so I'll stick with what we are close to happy with.
> 
> Here is a picture of the new side buttons for the 2016 models. In addition to a new side button mold which Was designed the side buttons now also use omron switches. Here is a picture, mind you this is from our own fabricator not full production injection. So still a rough sample.
> 
> 
> 
> As for material changes we are still experimenting. Obviously it seems most people have been asking for a departure away from anything glossy. The side buttons we can make matte , but the real challenge is what to do with the main glossy side on the right and upper left. Unfortunately when we tried other plastics weight was increased substantially, so we don't think that is an option. I will try and share more updates here when we figure something out. As of now texturing the current plastic seems like the best course of action.
> 
> Also since there seems to be a couple individuals here who prefer to have more choice on their sensor settings, I'm asking for permission to see if I can release several firmware flashers here. Obviously these flashers will come with a strict disclaimer that says it is not how the finalmouse is meant to be utilized, and is not the desired tracking feeling we found our In house pros to enjoy... That being said I will try and release the following firmware:
> 
> 500 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register off
> 1000 hz with MCU noise control register on
> And perhaps one with different framerate settings as well
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jude


still waiting


----------



## daniel0731ex

Like the Messiah, long promised, never delivered.


----------



## ov3rmind

if they make it's right side better, it's worth to buy ergo version. if not, waste of money.


----------



## n1kobg

This guy sais you can get it to work from 500mhz to 1000mhz from their website. Idk how though.

https://youtu.be/yAgX5xUeq60


----------



## James N

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *n1kobg*
> 
> This guy sais you can get it to work from 500mhz to 1000mhz from their website. Idk how though.
> 
> https://youtu.be/yAgX5xUeq60


http://www.finalmouse.com/classicergo21000hz.rar


----------



## Jonagold

Wondering if there is yet a firmware for FinalMouse 2015 which would disable the MCU -smoothing?


----------

