# [ wccf Tech ] AMD Radeon HD 9970 Engineering Samples Shipped To Manufacturers



## KaRLiToS

*SOURCE*
Quote:


> *AMD Radeon HD 9970 Samples Reportedly Sent Out to Manufacturer's*
> AMD's Radeon HD 9970 is the next generation graphics card from the red team. The name isn't official yet but most sources are pointing that AMD would skip the HD 8000 series branding and just go with the HD 9000 name. The recent AMD FX processors are also branded as FX-9000 series so that could be a reason behind the HD 9000 naming scheme.
> f


Quote:


> The AMD Radeon HD 9970 and the rest of the HD 9000 series SKUs are reportedly launching in October 2013 or Q4 2013. For the current moment, the HD 9000 series cards would compete against the GeForce 700 series cards and we would see a similar competition as we say when AMD released their HD 7970 at the end of 2011 against the GeForce 500 series. NVIDIA has high hopes that their Kepler GK110 and GK104 based cards would provide competitive performance against the new AMD cards which is the reason why they won't release any new card till Q4 2013. Their Maxwell cards which are based on the 20nm architecture and feature Denver CPU with Unified memory architecture would arrive in first half of 2014.


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## DUpgrade

I think the HD8000 got skipped when they just weren't making anything better than the 7970. I noticed the prices of any HD79XX card went up anywhere from $20-50 right after that. I'm wondering what happens when they run out of numbers to call these cards, perhaps there will be a FX line instead of using HD in the future?


----------



## eXXon

Oh man, I just got a 780.......

I hate this getting-the-latest-GPU bug.


----------



## DUpgrade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> Oh man, I just got a 780.......
> 
> I hate this getting-the-latest-GPU bug.


I read somehwere the 9970 will be somewhere between a 780 and a titan. You're probably fine.


----------



## Gnomepatrol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DUpgrade*
> 
> I think the HD8000 got skipped when they just weren't making anything better than the 7970. I noticed the prices of any HD79XX card went up anywhere from $20-50 right after that. I'm wondering what happens when they run out of numbers to call these cards, perhaps there will be a FX line instead of using HD in the future?


Well they do have the OEM and Mobile series 8XXX. Maybe they just decided to leave it at that and move onto their next iteration. AMD/ATI often tests a few things in a series then does something big, kind of like a tick/tock cycle. Hell sometimes they will do a one off just to test a fabrication, ala the 4770. Never question the insanity and nonsensicalness.


----------



## eXXon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DUpgrade*
> 
> I read somehwere the 9970 will be somewhere between a 780 and a titan. You're probably fine.


I came from 7970s CF to a 780 (2nd one coming soon) so its not the performance (nor the stutter since I didn't face it much).

Its reading about it and waiting for the official specs, then the leaked benchmarks/photos, then the official benchmarks, by then I'll be hooked.

That's what happened when the Titan was released, but I couldn't afford it, so once the 780 came out I got it, even though I really didn't need it at all....

So knowing myself, if the 9970 beats a 780, I'll need to get it, even though I'll probably have two 780s by then...........can't really explain why.


----------



## Ryude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> I came from 7970s CF to a 780 (2nd one coming soon) so its not the performance (nor the stutter since I didn't face it much).
> 
> Its reading about it and waiting for the official specs, then the leaked benchmarks/photos, then the official benchmarks, by then I'll be hooked.
> 
> That's what happened when the Titan was released, but I couldn't afford it, so once the 780 came out I got it, even though I really didn't need it at all....
> 
> So knowing myself, if the 9970 beats a 780, I'll need to get it, even though I'll probably have two 780s by then...........can't really explain why.


Have you seen a doctor yet?


----------



## ladcrooks

another story with nothing to get your teeth in - specking again


----------



## alcal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ryude*
> 
> Have you seen a doctor yet?


There's no cure for the bug.

Fortunately, the 7970 is such a badass card that I'm happy with my 7970 xfire in my "play" rig and single 7970 in my "work" rig. The 7970 is like a grizzled warrior--Not so pretty anymore, but you have to respect the ground it has covered.


----------



## Blackops_2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> I came from 7970s CF to a 780 (2nd one coming soon) so its not the performance (nor the stutter since I didn't face it much).
> 
> Its reading about it and waiting for the official specs, then the leaked benchmarks/photos, then the official benchmarks, by then I'll be hooked.
> 
> That's what happened when the Titan was released, but I couldn't afford it, so once the 780 came out I got it, even though I really didn't need it at all....
> 
> So knowing myself, if the 9970 beats a 780, I'll need to get it, even though I'll probably have two 780s by then...........can't really explain why.


It's the excitement of buying my friend. It's incredibly fun and exhilarating IMO at least to plan while awaiting a new product or starting a build etc. It's almost like inner hype of a product so to speak. Oh also that new card smell









While i had nowhere near the performance of your CF 7970s i had no reason/need for my 7970s i have. My 470 is still doing just fine. But it had been three years and i felt the need to scratch the itch. Plus been waiting to kind of go all out (for me at least) on a build. Watercooling, CF, the works.

It's part of what drives this hobby to some extent IMO, there is always something to look forward to because of the industry's rapid progression.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alcal*
> 
> There's no cure for the bug.
> 
> Fortunately, the 7970 is such a badass card that I'm happy with my 7970 xfire in my "play" rig and single 7970 in my "work" rig. The 7970 is like a grizzled warrior--Not so pretty anymore, but you have to respect the ground it has covered.


QFT, considering it's length run it somewhat reminds me of the 8800gtx. They really are great cards







If we can just see a good jump in the 9000 series, even if 10% behind the 780 it will be good IMO. Thing is it will be bundled with BF4 if it comes out and rumored Watch Dogs that alone is going to sell loads. I know there were some games in the never settle bundles that were popular but weren't widely loved like BF.

Sigged


----------



## NoL

Quote:


> I'm wondering what happens when they run out of numbers to call these cards, perhaps there will be a FX line instead of using HD in the future?


I have a Radeon 9800 Pro on my shelf that would like a word with you.


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## Blackops_2

Lol was thinking something similar. I think they go back to the "X" naming scheme. HD-X100 maybe? Guess we'll see.


----------



## Just a nickname

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> I came from 7970s CF to a 780 (2nd one coming soon) so its not the performance (nor the stutter since I didn't face it much).
> 
> Its reading about it and waiting for the official specs, then the leaked benchmarks/photos, then the official benchmarks, by then I'll be hooked.
> 
> That's what happened when the Titan was released, but I couldn't afford it, so once the 780 came out I got it, even though I really didn't need it at all....
> 
> So knowing myself, if the 9970 beats a 780, I'll need to get it, even though I'll probably have two 780s by then...........can't really explain why.


Until you find something in witch you think your money will have a better use, you will keep wasting it on computer parts. I am a student, I live with my parents so I could easily afford the best and latest. Even though I spent nearly a year checking price and news of video card, I couldn't justify spending that much for a new card (I sold the 300$ 7970 I had).

Computer and video game are both a waste of money and time. It's fun but it is really not worth it IMO.


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## thestache

Harry up AMD I want to see what these things are capable of and I want to see the new crossfire drivers. We want competition for GK110.


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## adridu59

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just a nickname*
> 
> It's fun but it is really not worth it IMO.


It's not worth $1500 every 2 years but I wouldn't say it's not worth it.


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## Alastair

I'll take one 8970 or two 8870's!


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## jeffblute

Should be a perfect time to upgrade from my 6950's or maybe a 780 because some people have the upgrade bug much worse then some of us. Keeping my eyes on you eXXon


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## iARDAs

I wonder if Titan will still be the fastest single core single GPU out there or will the 9970 surprass it?


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## Renairy

Screw the new GFX cards.... gimme new games dammit


----------



## anothergeek

If it has 4096 SP it will

OC who knows


----------



## SuprUsrStan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alcal*
> 
> There's no cure for the bug.
> 
> Fortunately, the 7970 is such a badass card that I'm happy with my 7970 xfire in my "play" rig and single 7970 in my "work" rig. The 7970 is like a grizzled warrior--Not so pretty anymore, but you have to respect the ground it has covered.


Sure there is. The cure is throwing money at the problem. Just go out and buy the 9970 and SLI them. You'll be much happier and instantly cured. Till the GTX 880 comes out at least.


----------



## CynicalUnicorn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just a nickname*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> I came from 7970s CF to a 780 (2nd one coming soon) so its not the performance (nor the stutter since I didn't face it much).
> 
> Its reading about it and waiting for the official specs, then the leaked benchmarks/photos, then the official benchmarks, by then I'll be hooked.
> 
> That's what happened when the Titan was released, but I couldn't afford it, so once the 780 came out I got it, even though I really didn't need it at all....
> 
> So knowing myself, if the 9970 beats a 780, I'll need to get it, even though I'll probably have two 780s by then...........can't really explain why.
> 
> 
> 
> Until you find something in witch you think your money will have a better use, you will keep wasting it on computer parts. I am a student, I live with my parents so I could easily afford the best and latest. Even though I spent nearly a year checking price and news of video card, I couldn't justify spending that much for a new card (I sold the 300$ 7970 I had).
> 
> Computer and video game are both a waste of money and time. It's fun but it is really not worth it IMO.
Click to expand...

Oh... They are? Then can I have your 7970?







It will be interesting to see how these stack up to Nvidia's current and next-gen offerings. If they're only comparable to current gen, then Nvidia will win next-gen (PCs of course, since AMD has a monopoly on consoles) if they price their new stuff competitively. Of course, AMD has those game bundles which effectively brings the cards' prices down if you planned on playing those anyway.


----------



## Razzle Dazzle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just a nickname*
> 
> Until you find something in witch you think your money will have a better use, you will keep wasting it on computer parts. I am a student, I live with my parents so I could easily afford the best and latest. Even though I spent nearly a year checking price and news of video card, I couldn't justify spending that much for a new card (I sold the 300$ 7970 I had).
> 
> Computer and video game are both a waste of money and time. It's fun but it is really not worth it IMO.


I semi-agree with you. For most of us here I would guess this is a hobby, just like say golfing would be. Now I know I am talking golfing which=exercise and gaming/computers=no exercise but all hobbies come with a price (for the most part).

But golfing can be quite expensive as well, and computers are no different. Everyone has their price and everyone has different levels of extremities when it comes to their hobby. So for a lot of people money doesn't matter (it does for me haha). It's the nature of the beast!


----------



## alcal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blackops_2*
> 
> It's the excitement of buying my friend. It's incredibly fun and exhilarating IMO at least to plan while awaiting a new product or starting a build etc. It's almost like inner hype of a product so to speak. Oh also that new card smell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While i had nowhere near the performance of your CF 7970s i had no reason/need for my 7970s i have. My 470 is still doing just fine. But it had been three years and i felt the need to scratch the itch. Plus been waiting to kind of go all out (for me at least) on a build. Watercooling, CF, the works.
> 
> It's part of what drives this hobby to some extent IMO, there is always something to look forward to because of the industry's rapid progression.
> QFT, considering it's length run it somewhat reminds me of the 8800gtx. They really are great cards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we can just see a good jump in the 9000 series, even if 10% behind the 780 it will be good IMO. Thing is it will be bundled with BF4 if it comes out and rumored Watch Dogs that alone is going to sell loads. I know there were some games in the never settle bundles that were popular but weren't widely loved like BF.
> 
> Sigged


Haha cheers mate! That's the first time someones sigged something I've said.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Syan48306*
> 
> Sure there is. The cure is throwing money at the problem. Just go out and buy the 9970 and SLI them. You'll be much happier and instantly cured. Till the GTX 880 comes out at least.


The money-bombardment is a treatment. If you can afford the treatment, then you're fine and you won't suffer serious symptoms. By no means does it mean that you are cured, however.


----------



## lacrossewacker

I realize this is more about the HD 9970, but can somebody shed some light on this part of the article...
Quote:


> Their Maxwell cards which are based on the 20nm architecture and feature Denver CPU with Unified memory architecture would arrive in first half of 2014.


Denver CPU? Like an APU sort of thing or just like a small CPU soldered to the PCB to handle smaller tasks on the side for lower power while idling?


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> I realize this is more about the HD 9970, but can somebody shed some light on this part of the article...
> Denver CPU? Like an APU sort of thing or just like a small CPU soldered to the PCB to handle smaller tasks on the side for lower power while idling?


Yeah, that part also caught my attention.


Quote:


> "Let me show you one more. Next gen beyond Logan has a peculiar name, Parker. Parker brings three ideas to the market. First with Denver. First 64-bit ARM processor coupled with our next-gen GPU Maxwell. First to use FinFET transistors," said Jen-Hsun Huang, chief executive officer of Nvidia.
> 
> Nvidia Tegra 6 "Parker" is due sometimes in 2015 - 2016 timeframe. However, there are even faster mobile application processors incoming from Nvidia, as it intends to integrate its new-generation general-purpose cores, such as Boulder, as well as graphics cores, such as Volta, into future Tegra chips.


http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile/display/20130319234331_Nvidia_Updates_Tegra_Roadmap_Parker_Mobile_Graphics_Chip_Introduced.html


----------



## geoxile

I think the Denver CPU might be used in the same manner as AMD's ACE, used for managing and sorting compute tasks.


----------



## Ghoxt

Personally I'm hoping the 9970 is a Beast!!!

Fanboy Insecurities aside, I don't want a 9970 card that fits oh so pretty and safe with flowers and lillies, with pastel colors, nicely and passive between the 780 and Titan. I want the 9970 to rock the world. and pushing the envelope.

1. This will put pressure on Nvidia to release the hounds with their new tech.







That we suspect they already have but have been sandbagging on holding onto it.
2. Put something out there for programmers to program with. Chicken and Egg comparison. Programmers equally say, "why program a realistic water shader if nothing can handle it realtime." Build it and they will come, hardware wise. I say









Money aside, we already have 780 & Titan performance. What does a new single card gen bring to us on OCN by sitting in the middle of these two known GPU's especially with the the age of Kepler?

As a Titan owner I won't be upset or insecure at all, that a new generation, arguably a year and a half after the Kepler architecture was born, beats it.

"Grow Up" is what I say. Get over it, and move on. Will everyone feel the same as me? No of course not. Some Titan owners will be highly insecure and vocally raging on the boards. "How dare the Titan get beat by the next gen AMD GPU so soon".

Tech is fast moving, accept it or don't play the game.


----------



## LatinLover

*2 words*


----------



## Mygaffer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DUpgrade*
> 
> I think the HD8000 got skipped when they just weren't making anything better than the 7970. I noticed the prices of any HD79XX card went up anywhere from $20-50 right after that. I'm wondering what happens when they run out of numbers to call these cards, perhaps there will be a FX line instead of using HD in the future?


They have OEM only parts with HD8000 part names, which is certainly part of the reason they are skipping that name for the retail releases. Also, they will have both the top end CPU and GPU release share a common number for their names. Makes for good marketing. I just bought an original reference xfx 7970 for $319 shipped, makes me think perhaps I should have waited? Ah, but the performance is so good and I needed it with my 2560x1440 screen, so no regrets.


----------



## sdlvx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Renairy*
> 
> Screw the new GFX cards.... gimme new games dammit


That's why AMD is releasing then. They're more than likely hoping for going for something along the lines of getting some early multi-platforms released and using those in benchmarks to try and get a software optimization advantage.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> I think the Denver CPU might be used in the same manner as AMD's ACE, used for managing and sorting compute tasks.


The best Nvidia can do is create a really big ARM or MIPS CPU. I don't see Nvidia worrying too much about this now, not when they've gutted GPGPU from Kepler in the name of power consumption. Nvidia seems to be stepping away from GPGPU and AMD seems to be embracing it.

I just wonder how long these generations are going to last. We're going to have a tweaked Tahiti going against rebranded and clock bumped Keplers (kind of like FX Centurions). It's more than likely not going to be a good time for Nvidia.

If GK110 is about 550mm^2 and AMD can sit between GTX 780 and Titan in performance while having a die size less than 400mm^2, Nvidia is going to get absolutely mauled in price to performance. There simply won't be any way for Nvidia to compete, at all. Tahiti is 365mm^2.

AMD has a huge chance to dominate if the 9970 GPU is under 450mm^2. I'd imagine 9970 falling between GTX 780 and Titan like everyone is suggesting, but based on die size I'd expect it to fall between GTX 770 and GTX 780 in pricing, leaning more towards GTX 770 pricing as AMD wants more market share instead of profits (at least judging their past behaviors).

AMD just needs to get their CPUs in order now to stop the embarrassment of their graphic products running better on their competitors CPUs as opposed to AMD CPUs.


----------



## AlphaC

Let's see some real-world benches then we'll talk.

Bulldozer was all hype after all









I wouldn't buy a GPU til new Firepros come out , by then drivers should be tweaked for pro apps


----------



## Gunderman456

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ghoxt*
> 
> Personally I'm hoping the 9970 is a Beast!!!
> 
> Fanboy Insecurities aside, I don't want a 9970 card that fits oh so pretty and safe with flowers and lillies, with pastel colors, nicely and passive between the 780 and Titan. I want the 9970 to rock the world. and pushing the envelope.
> 
> 1. This will put pressure on Nvidia to release the hounds with their new tech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That we suspect they already have but have been sandbagging on holding onto it.
> 2. Put something out there for programmers to program with. Chicken and Egg comparison. Programmers equally say, "why program a realistic water shader if nothing can handle it realtime." Build it and they will come, hardware wise. I say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Money aside, we already have 780 & Titan performance. What does a new single card gen bring to us on OCN by sitting in the middle of these two known GPU's especially with the the age of Kepler?
> 
> As a Titan owner I won't be upset or insecure at all, that a new generation, arguably a year and a half after the Kepler architecture was born, beats it.
> 
> "Grow Up" is what I say. Get over it, and move on. Will everyone feel the same as me? No of course not. Some Titan owners will be highly insecure and vocally raging on the boards. "How dare the Titan get beat by the next gen AMD GPU so soon".
> 
> Tech is fast moving, accept it or don't play the game.


Wholeheartedly agree!

AMD needs to handily beat the Titan at a reasonable price. Just sitting in the middle of the 780/Titan will not inspire most to buy since we already have this performance and most are waiting for something a lot better.

I still will need a good reason to abandon my 5970 after all and the 780 or the Titan aren't it. And should the new AMD card fit somewhere in between, it won't be it either.


----------



## eXXon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> Wholeheartedly agree!
> 
> AMD needs to handily beat the Titan at a reasonable price. *Just sitting in the middle of the 780/Titan will not inspire most to buy since we already have this performance and most are waiting for something a lot better.*
> 
> I still will need a good reason to abandon my 5970 after all and the 780 or the Titan aren't it. And should the new AMD card fit somewhere in between, it won't be it either.


Although we have the performance now, its still waaay too expensive for most.

If the 9970 can deliver a 10% performance increase over the 780 & sell it for 400-450$, I'd call that a win.

But I think AMD as a company will not settle for anything less than 550$.


----------



## s-x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Renairy*
> 
> Screw the new GFX cards.... gimme new games dammit


How much money do you want to bet that AMD bundles these cards with another handful of awesome games? Some notable games that will launch around that time frame: Amnesia 2, Lost planet 3, Saints Row IV, watch dogs, BF4, ARMA 3, etc.

Anyone of those games would be a great for an AMD bundle, and would trounce on Nvidias splinter cell offering.


----------



## SuprUsrStan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> Wholeheartedly agree!
> 
> AMD needs to handily beat the Titan at a reasonable price. Just sitting in the middle of the 780/Titan will not inspire most to buy since we already have this performance and most are waiting for something a lot better.
> 
> I still will need a good reason to abandon my 5970 after all and the 780 or the Titan aren't it. And should the new AMD card fit somewhere in between, it won't be it either.


Hopes and dreams aside, AMD just does not have the architecture at 28 nm to beat Kepler on performance per watt. It's just plain and simple. Unless they beat Nvidia to the punch and drop down to 20nm for the 9970, it wont be anything earth shattering.


----------



## eXXon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Syan48306*
> 
> Hopes and dreams aside, AMD just does not have the architecture at 28 nm to beat Kepler on performance per watt. It's just plain and simple. Unless they beat Nvidia to the punch and drop down to 20nm for the 9970, it wont be anything earth shattering.


The 7790 would like a word............


----------



## Johnny Rook

I think AMD plans for HD8000 were all scrambled with the GTX 780 performance. Let's face it. No one expected it would be so good. Not the end-users; not the press and certainly not AMD. I'm not so sure the HD9970 will beat the GTX 780. I wish it does - we all would benefice from it -, but, i have serious doubts.

I
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> still will need a good reason to abandon my 5970 after all and the 780 or the Titan aren't it. And should the new AMD card fit somewhere in between, it won't be it either.


I also thought like that. Very much since the TITAN launch I was trying to convince myself it wasn't worthy the upgrade. "My HD5970 has great performance in games; it even marks X3070 in 3DMark11", I said to myself, trying not to think too much about the drivers issues, the micro-stutter, the horrible scaling in certain games; trying to forget I just couldn't turn on TressFX in Tom Raider, Tesselation in Crysis 3 or Metro: Last Light, etc. But then, GTX 780 came along and in mid June, I got the chance to test it one for myself at home... What a difference! 75% more performance in real world gaming! And all eye-candy! "Wow! That's worthy an upgrade!". Ordered one the next day!
You are not an "all eye-candy turned on" kind of gamer, I suppose. Lucky you!


----------



## Gunderman456

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Johnny Rook*
> 
> I think AMD plans for HD8000 were all scrambled with the GTX 780 performance. Let's face it. No one expected it would be so good. Not the end-users; not the press and certainly not AMD. I'm not so sure the HD9970 will beat the GTX 780. I wish it does - we all would benefice from it -, but, i have serious doubts.
> 
> I
> I also thought like that. Very much since the TITAN launch I was trying to convince myself it wasn't worthy the upgrade. "My HD5970 has great performance in games; it even marks X3070 in 3DMark11", I said to myself, trying not to think too much about the drivers issues, the micro-stutter, the horrible scaling in certain games; trying to forget I just couldn't turn on TressFX in Tom Raider, Tesselation in Crysis 3 or Metro: Last Light, etc. But then, GTX 780 came along and in mid June, I got the chance to test it one for myself at home... What a difference! 75% more performance in real world gaming! And all eye-candy! "Wow! That's worthy an upgrade!". Ordered one the next day!
> You are not an "all eye-candy turned on" kind of gamer, I suppose. Lucky you!


When my video card stops from playing my games on mostly high settings, then that will be the time to switch. So far it kills everything with some moderate tweaking required in some games. I'm hoping that the new CF drivers will fix this dropped frames issue, since that is noticeable in some games - Skyrim, Metro 2023, Crysis 3 (just off the top of my head) and has been since the day I bought the card. Always felt let down by AMD for that.

So really the 9970 better be superior to the Titan, at a reasonable price and with the CF issues fixed or else it will not be AMD at all. I might just wait till the 20nm cards at that point.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Syan48306*
> 
> Hopes and dreams aside, AMD just does not have the architecture at 28 nm to beat Kepler on performance per watt. It's just plain and simple. Unless they beat Nvidia to the punch and drop down to 20nm for the 9970, it wont be anything earth shattering.


Tahiti + compute cut down = Cape verde/ Pitcairn , about as efficient as Kepler is. AMD just doesn't cut compute on their larger die.

If you notice when Kepler is close to its limits (GTX 760) AMD's Tahiti is about as efficient.



http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_780_TF_Gaming/27.html


----------



## s-x

Now its only a matter of weeks before images are leaked.


----------



## GoldenTiger

Anyone else more interested in the tidbit in the videocardz.com article saying maxwell is coming sooner than expected?


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoldenTiger*
> 
> Anyone else more interested in the tidbit in the videocardz.com article saying maxwell is coming sooner than expected?


I think the GTX 780 will be better than it heh Tiger?









But especially the ACX one, heh Tiger?


----------



## GoldenTiger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> I think the GTX 780 will be better than it heh Tiger?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But especially the ACX one, heh Tiger?


That's completely non-sensical.... the Maxwell chip will be in the next-gen nVidia cards. Obviously the Maxwell-based cards will be faster.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoldenTiger*
> 
> That's completely non-sensical.... the Maxwell chip will be in the next-gen nVidia cards. Obviously the Maxwell-based cards will be faster.


You know I was kidding right?


----------



## coachmark2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NoL*
> 
> I have a Radeon 9800 Pro on my shelf that would like a word with you.


I have a Dell Inspiron 8600 with an ATI Radeon 9600 Pro Turbo.







Boss of a little GPU right there. Also have a machine at work with a Radeon 9250....


----------



## Opcode

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DUpgrade*
> 
> I think the HD8000 got skipped when they just weren't making anything better than the 7970. I noticed the prices of any HD79XX card went up anywhere from $20-50 right after that. I'm wondering what happens when they run out of numbers to call these cards, perhaps there will be a FX line instead of using HD in the future?


AMD already stated they need to revise the naming scheme for both their CPU's and GPU's. I get the hint they will start releasing CPU's and GPU's around the same time, or at least mark both with similar generation names. Sorta like FX-9590 and HD 9970 both could be members of the "AMD 9000 series". Boy would that help out AMD big time, you can imagine a Never Settle bundle with both a next generation GPU and FX processor. I wouldn't be surprised if they do it with their APU's also. And just make one family for every generation of hardware. This is probably not the case, but it's definitely something to think about (you getting this AMD?).


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> I realize this is more about the HD 9970, but can somebody shed some light on this part of the article...
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Their Maxwell cards which are based on the 20nm architecture and feature Denver CPU with Unified memory architecture would arrive in first half of 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> Denver CPU? Like an APU sort of thing or just like a small CPU soldered to the PCB to handle smaller tasks on the side for lower power while idling?
Click to expand...










I'm in the same boat with you on this one..

edit:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> I realize this is more about the HD 9970, but can somebody shed some light on this part of the article...
> Denver CPU? Like an APU sort of thing or just like a small CPU soldered to the PCB to handle smaller tasks on the side for lower power while idling?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that part also caught my attention.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> "Let me show you one more. Next gen beyond Logan has a peculiar name, Parker. Parker brings three ideas to the market. First with Denver. First 64-bit ARM processor coupled with our next-gen GPU Maxwell. First to use FinFET transistors," said Jen-Hsun Huang, chief executive officer of Nvidia.
> 
> Nvidia Tegra 6 "Parker" is due sometimes in 2015 - 2016 timeframe. However, there are even faster mobile application processors incoming from Nvidia, as it intends to integrate its new-generation general-purpose cores, such as Boulder, as well as graphics cores, such as Volta, into future Tegra chips.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile/display/20130319234331_Nvidia_Updates_Tegra_Roadmap_Parker_Mobile_Graphics_Chip_Introduced.html
Click to expand...

rep..


----------



## sdlvx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoldenTiger*
> 
> Anyone else more interested in the tidbit in the videocardz.com article saying maxwell is coming sooner than expected?


Well considering it was a 2013 part what does that mean exactly?



It's good news though, Maxwell is supposed to be 20nm. Maybe we'll get really lucky and HD 9970 will surprise us all and be 20nm. IIRC 28nm was the same thing, lots of people expecting 28nm to be delayed further and then suddenly, 28nm AMD GPUs popping off the TSMC lines.

AMD/ATI usually jumps on new nodes at TSMC before Nvidia, but I am a little worried Rory Read isn't going to jump on it right away as he's more cautious. However that's always been a big advantage for AMD and I think they'd be foolish to squander it. But I personally feel like there's a lot of things AMD has the chance to either make great or squander right now.


----------



## Ha-Nocri

http://www.eteknix.com/sapphire-letting-clients-test-hd-9970-curacao-xt-graphics-card/
Quote:


> Apparnetly the new card has a 12-layer PCB, up from the 10-layer PCB on the HD 7970. The memory interface is 512-bit


512-bit memory bus?! Weird.


----------



## Rezard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DUpgrade*
> 
> I read somehwere the 9970 will be somewhere between a 780 and a titan. You're probably fine.


Honestly, though, there's not much room between the two card's specs.
That would be pretty easy to imagine.


----------



## Opcode

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rezard*
> 
> Honestly, though, there's not much room between the two card's specs.
> That would be pretty easy to imagine.


Sure there is, in my wallet. For a card that should cost a lot less than the GTX 780 to begin with.


----------



## Booty Warrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Opcode*
> 
> Sure there is, in my wallet. For a card that should cost a lot less than the GTX 780 to begin with.


If it really beats the 780 they won't have a reason to price it much lower. They've already got the best bundles in history... and they're getting better with BF4!

Besides, I'm sure both companies would love to gradually shift the $500-550 price point to $600-650 for coming generations.


----------



## Johnny Rook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> When my video card stops from playing my games on mostly high settings, then that will be the time to switch. So far it kills everything with some moderate tweaking required in some games. I'm hoping that the new CF drivers will fix this dropped frames issue, since that is noticeable in some games - Skyrim, Metro 2023, Crysis 3 (just off the top of my head) and has been since the day I bought the card. Always felt let down by AMD for that.


Fair enough!

I always consider that GPU upgrading to be very, very "idiosyncratic". If the user is enjoying his games, even though compromising in graphics details; if his graphics card can deal with the games he plays, at the resolutions he wants and with the graphics settings he likes, then, there's no reason for him to upgrade.

As for me, my HD5970 just wasn't delivering anymore - even clocked at 1GHz in both cores. The main problem was the RAM. I could certainly live without MSAA or High levels of tesselation but, I couldn't play Metro 2033 and Metro: Last Light in Stereoscopic 3D and High settings without massive frame drops and all the other problems we know about multi-GPU systems, Playing the "Metros" in S-3D is an amazing experience I was really up to enjoy at full extent. Not just S-3D but, S-3D with all "eye-candy" my wallet could afford. Hence, the GTX 780.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> So really the 9970 better be superior to the Titan, at a reasonable price and with the CF issues fixed or else it will not be AMD at all. I might just wait till the 20nm cards at that point.


I really wish that turns to be true and the drivers really works with every Radeon series of cards.

If the 9970 turns out to be similar or better than TITAN or GTX 780 are, I see no reasons for AMD not to charge around €600 for the card; $549 as minimum, I recon. Keep in mind the HD7970 GHz Edition release price was $499.


----------



## Opcode

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Booty Warrior*
> 
> If it really beats the 780 they won't have a reason to price it much lower. They've already got the best bundles in history... and they're getting better with BF4!
> 
> Besides, I'm sure both companies would love to gradually shift the $500-550 price point to $600-650 for coming generations.


With the way AMD prices their hardware, if it does perform between the GTX 780 and the TITAN. I can guarantee they will match Nvidia's pricing, even tho the card performs marginally better. That's AMD's way of "sticking it to the man" or in short Nvidia.


----------



## fateswarm

My suspicion is they can't do much more than NVIDIA did:

1. Squeeze a bit more the 28nm process with very slight stepping improvements on the chip (i.e. 770) that can only improve overclocking ability really. They already know what is optimal for a certain process node and I doubt they will ever do much more than stability and minor tweaking without a shrinked process.

2. Double the die size and transistor count more or less (with slight improvements like more CUDA FP, irrelevant to gaming) but double the price of manufacturing (GK110). It was a slight efficiency improvement over the SLI-on-a-card product line basically.

I mean, AMD and NVIDIA are practically on the same manufacturing process. The only thing they compete on is theoretical design and marketing. But I don't think either of them is "bad" or "too good" at it compared to the other, and they already knew what is optimal for the 28nm process.









So, yeah, don't expect much more than a lightly tweaked chip or a doubled sized chip (the SLI-on-a-card successor).

The only thing that interests me is the pricing, I may just get a better offer. But technologically? No.


----------



## Vesku

If the rumored specs are true then they've increased die size a bit, perhaps the low 400mm2 range. Will be a pretty good spot for AMD if it performs in-between a 780 and a Titan which are based on a 551mm2 chip.


----------



## fateswarm

If they increase die size though it is a Highway to higher prices, just like NVIDIA was forced to do it with the GK110. Foundries are simplistic in pricing really, you increase the die size, it will cost you









So yeah.. if they increase it, it will be hard to go lower than 550-$650 and if they reach something like $400 then you know they're probably at a loss for promotional reasons. I hope they do it that way


----------



## Vesku

AMD will charge based on how it competes with Nvidia. If it's faster than the 780 I wouldn't expect it to be less than $600 at launch unless Nvidia price drops before it launches.


----------



## fateswarm

Well yeah, realistically I expect them to have a product that is around $500 and slightly beats the 770 and if they re brave, an 800 or $1000 product/products that slightly beats 780/Titan.


----------



## malmental

remember AMD is still about raw power and performance and that's one of the reason for the frame rate / timing issues
came into play and everyone made an uproar.
just recently have they been focusing on the drivers and with the past three nVidia drivers being below par the gap has narrowed.
with AMD suppose to be getting the framing issues under control with upcoming drivers next year's fight will be interesting.

as for me, unless I have to do an AMD build (APU specifically) then odds are I'll stay nVidia regardless.


----------



## Nonehxc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> remember AMD is still about raw power and performance and that's one of the reason for the frame rate / timing issues
> came into play and everyone made an uproar.
> just recently have they been focusing on the drivers and with the past three nVidia drivers being below par the gap has narrowed.
> with AMD suppose to be getting the framing issues under control with upcoming drivers next year's fight will be interesting.
> 
> as for me, unless I have to do an AMD build (APU specifically) then odds are I'll stay nVidia regardless.


Next years gonna be interesting for much more than that. AMD tidying their drivers is just a show of what's at stake. They needed a 200% better driver support for what they're trying to accomplish, same for Nvidia, because in a year we're going to see a new paradigm: CPU+gpu+memory/GPU+cpu+memory. More complex architectures need a better support, Maxwell and 99xx series? is gonna be a blast to play with.

This seems like 2D-3D accelerators/GPU intro times: a performance escalation so big we're gonna get wowed.









If anyone is short on cash, I would refrain from buying a recent GPU and instead I would put the money towards CPU+Mobo and go SLI/CF, cause this years contestants vs Maxwell/next AMD will probably feel like an amateur featherweight vs Vitalyi Klitschko


----------



## Johnny Rook

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nonehxc*
> 
> If anyone is short on cash, I would refrain from buying a recent GPU and instead I would put the money towards CPU+Mobo and go SLI/CF, cause this years contestants vs Maxwell/next AMD will probably feel like an amateur featherweight vs Vitalyi Klitschko


I think you are expecting to much from Maxwell/next AMD stuff... I wish you weren't but, meh....

Anyways, the "intel-matching" pricing of the new AMD FX CPU is a window for what's coming in the AMD GPU side of things... I only hope it doesn't foresee massive TDPs as well. Only more performance, AMD! Only more performance!


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Well yeah, realistically I expect them to have a product that is around $500 and slightly beats the 770


They already have that product out and it's cheaper than 500$. It's called the HD7970; does that ring any bells?


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timeofdoom*
> 
> They already have that product out and it's cheaper than 500$. It's called the HD7970; does that ring any bells?


No, it's not, unless you mine coins.


----------



## malmental

HD 7950 = FTW in mining, I do know that much..


----------



## fateswarm

I seriously doubt mining coins is going to matter much in the wider market.


----------



## malmental

I don't mine anyways....
but lately it seems a few forum members are pushing it for on a lot of threads I have seen.
like they are recruiting and / or some sort of marketing..

that part is quite irritating.


----------



## FtW 420

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> No, it's not, unless you mine coins.


7970 mines better, benchmarks better, not a gamer so I can't speak for gaming.


----------



## fateswarm

I like how he's a benchmarks editor and can't notice in the majority of benchmarks a 7970 does not beat a 770.

But mine coins all you want. Fine, there it's "better".


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I like how he's a benchmarks editor and can't notice in the majority of benchmarks a 7970 does not beat a 770.
> 
> But mine coins all you want. Fine, there it's "better".


You are so wrong but oh well, believe what you want.









Oh and by the way, he is much more than just a benchmark editor. You would never do what he does to a 1000$ GPU.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FtW 420*
> 
> Basically replacing the entire gpu voltage power section for the mod, giving voltage control & VRMs that can take more voltage than the stock PCB.


----------



## FtW 420

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I like how he's a benchmarks editor and can't notice in the majority of benchmarks a 7970 does not beat a 770.
> 
> But mine coins all you want. Fine, there it's "better".


The 770/680 does do better in a few, although last time I looked the 7970 was still ahead in more.


----------



## malmental

this is turning into a HD 7970 vs thread again....









summary goes as this:
stocks settings and mild overclock = nVidia GTX 770 more so then GTX 680 over 7970, 7970 bests 680..
overclocking to higher clocks = 7970
and no point in getting the 7970 GE over the vanilla 7970 because they all seem to overclock well.

how's that.?


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> this is turning into a HD 7970 vs thread again....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> summary goes as this:
> stocks settings and mild overclock = nVidia GTX 770 more so then GTX 680 over 7970, 7970 bests 680..
> overclocking to higher clocks = 7970
> and no point in getting the 7970 GE over the vanilla 7970 because they all seem to overclock well.
> 
> how's that.?


True


----------



## GenoOCAU

Really looking forward to jumping over to AMD again. Nvidia can SMD after their Titan pricing.


----------



## 161029

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FtW 420*
> 
> 7970 mines better, benchmarks better, not a gamer so I can't speak for gaming.


The introduction of ASICs to the consumer market is going to make a lot of us really sad though since even with a good mining graphics card, we'll all get stomped by even the least expensive 5GH/s miner from Butterfly Labs.


----------



## 161029

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FtW 420*
> 
> 7970 mines better, benchmarks better, not a gamer so I can't speak for gaming.


The introduction of ASICs to the consumer market is going to make a lot of us really sad though since even with a good mining graphics card, we'll all get stomped by even the least expensive 5GH/s miner from Butterfly Labs.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HybridCore*
> 
> The introduction of ASICs to the consumer market is going to make a lot of us really sad though since even with a good mining graphics card, we'll all get stomped by even the least expensive 5GH/s miner from Butterfly Labs.


Have you ever tried to get a Butterfly Lab ASIC? There are few that were shipped and they slowy produce anyway. Its barely impossible to get one.

I wanted to get a couple but nobody is never sure if they will receive them even after pre-ordering for many months / years.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> overclocking to higher clocks = 7970


That's just a fantasy of AMD fans. Nowhere it is proven that it unequivocally beats 770 in the majority of benchmarks when both are overclocked.

Again, it's sad that supposedly "experts" spreads such nonsense.

Just read more, justify your purchases less. It's sad and a waste.


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> overclocking to higher clocks = 7970
> 
> 
> 
> That's just a fantasy of AMD fans. Nowhere it is proven that it unequivocally beats 770 in the majority of benchmarks when both are overclocked.
> 
> Again, it's sad that supposedly "experts" spreads such nonsense.
> 
> Just read more, justify your purchases less. It's sad and a waste.
Click to expand...

have you noticed the GPU's I run, you'll like my (720*) rig..


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> That's just a fantasy of AMD fans. Nowhere it is proven that it unequivocally beats 770 in the majority of benchmarks when both are overclocked.
> 
> Again, it's sad that supposedly "experts" spreads such nonsense.
> 
> Just read more, justify your purchases less. It's sad and a waste.


IMO


GTX Titan
GTX 780
HD 7970
GTX 770
GTX 680
HD 7950 >= GTX 670 = GTX 760
HD 7870 XT
GTX 660 ti


----------



## malmental

IMOp

GTX Titan
GTX 780
GTX 770
HD 7970
GTX 680
GTX 670 >= HD 7950 = GTX 760
GTX 660 ti = HD 7870 XT


----------



## fateswarm

Meh. I've noticed a lot of contamination of the knowledge about it by bitcoin miners. Plus any benchmark that managed to show it higher on general gaming, never did it with more than 2-3 FPS and in most cases, it even loses in some games in the same review. And there's theoretical speculation about the 1GB extra VRAM which does not apply to most 1080p users or those knowing they don't need it. Let alone we're talking about overclocked vs stock a lot of the time. e.g. there is a malicious or at least false rumor that the 770 is just an overclocked 680 GPU which is easily proven to be wrong: The GPU clock is only marginally raised, the VRAM is faster and the GPU is not even the same. It has a higher stepping and hence it most likely has stability and overclocking tweaks.

In general, calling 7970 unequivocally faster when both are overclocked is utter nonsense.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Meh. I've noticed a lot of contamination of the knowledge about it by bitcoin miners. Plus any benchmark that managed to show it higher on general gaming, never did it with more than 2-3 FPS and in most cases, it even loses in some games in the same review. And there's theoretical speculation about the 1GB extra VRAM which does not apply to most 1080p users or those knowing they don't need it. Let alone we're talking about overclocked vs stock a lot of the time. e.g. there is a malicious or at least false rumor that the 770 is just an overclocked 680 GPU which is easily proven to be wrong: The GPU clock is only marginally raised, the VRAM is faster and the GPU is not even the same. It has a higher stepping and hence it most likely has stability and overclocking tweaks.
> 
> In general, calling 7970 unequivocally faster when *both are overclocked* is utter nonsense.


This is both overclocked.


----------



## FtW 420

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> That's just a fantasy of AMD fans. Nowhere it is proven that it unequivocally beats 770 in the majority of benchmarks when both are overclocked.
> 
> Again, it's sad that supposedly "experts" spreads such nonsense.
> 
> Just read more, justify your purchases less. It's sad and a waste.


Having a quick look

7970 current records
http://www.hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/radeon_hd_7970/

gtx 770 current records
http://www.hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/geforce_gtx_770/

The 7970 has higher scores in the majority of 3d benchmarks


----------



## Moustache

This is the truth









GTX Titan
GTX 780
HD 7970 GHz
GTX 770
GTX 680
HD 7970
GTX 670
HD 7950
GTX 760
GTX 660 ti
HD 7870 XT


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moustache*
> 
> This is the truth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GTX Titan
> GTX 780
> HD 7970 GHz
> GTX 770
> GTX 680
> HD 7970
> GTX 670
> HD 7950
> GTX 760
> GTX 660 ti
> HD 7870 XT


almost...
'A' for effort though.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Come on, are we children? Everyone knows that's because one of the cards is a few days old, it's considered mid end by now and the other is much older and was considered high end for a long time.
> 
> Let me spell it for you: Nobody cares to benchmark the 770. It's all about Titans right now.


Let me quote the numbers in case nobody noticed:

7970: 12,880 submissions

770: 225 submissions

i.e. absolutely nobody cares to benchmark the 770.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Let me quote the numbers in case nobody noticed:
> 
> 7970: 12,880 submissions
> 
> 770: 225 submissions
> 
> i.e. absolutely nobody cares to benchmark the 770.


And your point is?

I think you should take another attitude on the forum to bring a respectful and enjoyable experience for everyone.


----------



## FtW 420

I should have used the 680 there, more subs with it.

http://www.hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/geforce_gtx_680/

The 680 has caught up a bit, almost even with the 7970 having a slight lead.


----------



## Moustache

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> almost...
> 'A' for effort though.


Oh which one is wrong, I want to get "A+".


----------



## fateswarm

For the 100th time, the 680 is not the same with the 770. The stepping is slightly raised, i.e. while it has the same main features one finds on tables, it unequivocally isn't the same chip according to the manufacturer. I suspect it has minor tweaks related to stability and overclocking. Sure, nothing massive, but the same it is not.

Plus, KaRLiToS, I'm disappointed that I have to spell it once more: With absolutely no interest in benchmarking the 770 (for aforementioned reasons), it has very small chances to get high on hall of fames.


----------



## thomascwhitfiel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> almost...
> 'A' for effort though.


I agree. The top 5 cards are all nvidia chips in reality. Titan, 780,770,680,670. Then Radeon shows up...finally.


----------



## Disturbed117

I'm disappointed that some members don't know how to respect others, And have a sensible debate.

Anyhow, Rant over.


----------



## thepoopscooper

If this can perform within a 10% margin of a GTX 780 at a cheaper price, it will be a win!

also, some of you arent realizing that the 7000 series of video cards came out in *2011* and the 700 series came out in *2013*, almost a year and a half later. there is no point in arguing about relatively dated tech to new tech


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thepoopscooper*
> 
> If this can perform within a 10% margin of a GTX 780 at a cheaper price, it will be a win!


The win spot is a $550 card that is around the performance of 780, a 400-$450 card that unequivocally beats the 770 *(not just because 7970 had tons of benchmarks in the past and for the 770 nobody cares to do it







) and perhaps a 250-$300 card that can take all the sales of the 760. (I suspect it has most kids' interest and it may dominate the Christmas market, so they'll care about that range).

As for the very highest end.. well.. that'll be interesting, though they'll likely just copy the GK110 approach and just make an enlarged chip that will raise the price (though they may do the same with the ~$550 card which mind point to the 780+Titan relationship in an AMD version).

Or they might just fail and do nothing at all. That'd be silly.


----------



## brettjv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> For the 100th time, the 680 is not the same with the 770. The stepping is slightly raised, i.e. while it has the same main features one finds on tables, it unequivocally isn't the same chip according to the manufacturer. I suspect it has minor tweaks related to stability and overclocking. Sure, nothing massive, but the same it is not.
> 
> Plus, KaRLiToS, I'm disappointed that I have to spell it once more: With absolutely no interest in benchmarking the 770 (for aforementioned reasons), it has very small chances to get high on hall of fames.


I see. It has higher 'stepping', and you 'suspect' it has 'minor tweaks' related to 'stability and overclocking'. So therefore, it 'unequivocally' isn't the same chip.

I tell you what ... there's one way to prove your point. Find some benchmarks out there that show that the 770 is faster than the 680 CLOCK FOR CLOCK.

Otherwise, all you're doing is blustering on. 'Stepping', in and of itself, is not a 'spec' that actually means anything. All the specs I've seen that actually matter, aside from default clocks, are the same between 770 and 680. So the burden of proof for your claim is on you. PROVE to us, that it's a different, better chip. The way you do that is by showing it's faster, clock for clock. Otherwise, the only advantage it has is that it has higher stock clocks, and can perhaps OC more, or has better fps/watt ratio, or what not.

Also, is not scores on HWBOT based on averages? Statistically-speaking, an average derived from 225 samples (in the sense of said sample accurately describing the true average of the total population) is much less 'different' than the accuracy derived from 12K samples than you seem to be suggesting.

IOW, with 225 samples you can probably establish a 95% confidence interval that the true mean varies from like 95% to 105% of the sample mean, whereas with 12K samples, the 95% confidence interval is probably that the sample average is around 97% to 103% of the true mean.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, I suggest you study some statistics at some point in your academic career. Because once you do, you'll realize that the 'argument' you seem to be making concerning the sample sizes here is not mathematically valid.

225 is PLENTY of samples to determine quite an accurate population mean. Very close, overall, to the accuracy provided by 12K samples, believe it or not.

And when you add on top that the fact that (unless you can provide actual evidence to the contrary, apart from repeating the same assertions over and over, w/o said evidence), the 680 and the 770 are, for intents and purposes, the same card (aside from probably better memory on the 770), well ... you can basically lump all the 680/770 results together, and call it a day









Most people around here consider me an nVidia guy, but I'll be the first to admit that in the *majority* (not ALL) of games/benches, the 7970 at max OC's is a faster card than a 770/680 card at max OC's.

Anyone that refuses to accept that rather obvious fact ... I dunno what to tell them. They're either wearing blinders, or they're not paying attention









I prefer nVidia because I prefer Forceware to Catalyst, and nVInspector to RadeonPro. And I like having PhysX. And I think SLi is more reliable than Crossfire. But AMD is simply making faster cards at lower prices than nV right now, and to argue differently is ... well, see the above.


----------



## malmental

I have a GTX 770 and for the sake of amusement if any of my fellow nVidia entusiast GTX 680 runners want to do some friendly comparisons
and hopefully have similar specs (hardware wise) then feel free to post here.
stock and overclocked if you wish.


----------



## Vesku

Can you disable boost? Simple test to see if there are any architectural updates would be to run 680 and 770 at same fixed clock both core and memory.


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vesku*
> 
> Can you disable boost? Simple test to see if there are any architectural updates would be to run 680 and 770 at same fixed clock both core and memory.


if I re-flash the BIOS to disable it..


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *brettjv*
> 
> I see. It has higher 'stepping', and you 'suspect' it has 'minor tweaks' related to 'stability and overclocking'. So therefore, it 'unequivocally' isn't the same chip.


I don't get why you are upset. The Manufacturer gave it a different stepping designation. What more do you need?


----------



## Mombasa69

"The CPU portion of current generation consoles were all PowerPC-based, or hybrids of that. However, the Playstation 4 is multi-core x86-based, bringing a much closer correlation to PCs. With an 8 core chip, this will result in game titles needing to be even more multi-core aware to get the best performance, which mirrors the direction AMD has taken with its FX series of CPUs."

"AMD GPUs and APUs sharing the same or similar architecture will have a much easier time coping with the extra graphics workloads required by this next-generation of titles."

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/06/07/amd-say-pc-ports-of-next-generation-console-titles-are-likely-to-struggle-on-intel-tech/

Sticking with my AMD FX-8350 and farewell to my tri-sli 570gtx set up. (Roll on the new Radeon GPU's!).


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mombasa69*
> 
> "The CPU portion of current generation consoles were all PowerPC-based, or hybrids of that. However, the Playstation 4 is multi-core x86-based, bringing a much closer correlation to PCs. With an 8 core chip, this will result in game titles needing to be even more multi-core aware to get the best performance, which mirrors the direction AMD has taken with its FX series of CPUs."
> 
> "AMD GPUs and APUs sharing the same or similar architecture will have a much easier time coping with the extra graphics workloads required by this next-generation of titles."
> 
> http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/06/07/amd-say-pc-ports-of-next-generation-console-titles-are-likely-to-struggle-on-intel-tech/
> 
> Sticking with my AMD FX-8350 and farewell to my tri-sli 570gtx set up. (Roll on the new Radeon GPU's!).


AMD CPU's have hard time performing in anything more than CF-X or SLI, so Tri anything and it takes a performance hit.
been proven in several reviews.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6934/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-single-multigpu-at-1440p/9
Quote:


> A CPU for Dual GPU Gaming: i5-2500K or FX-8350
> 
> Looking back through the results, moving to a dual GPU setup obviously has some issues. Various AMD platforms are not certified for dual NVIDIA cards for example, meaning while they may excel for AMD, you cannot recommend them for Team Green. There is also the dilemma that while in certain games you can be fairly GPU limited (Metro 2033, Sleeping Dogs), there are others were having the CPU horsepower can double the frame rate (Civilization V).
> 
> After the overview, my recommendation for dual GPU gaming comes in at the feet of the i5-2500K. This recommendation may seem odd - these chips are not the latest from Intel, but chances are that pre-owned they will be hitting a nice price point, especially if/when people move over to Haswell. If you were buying new, the obvious answer would be looking at an i5-3570K on Ivy Bridge rather than the 2500K, so consider this suggestion a minimum CPU recommendation.
> 
> On the AMD side, the FX-8350 puts up a good show across most of the benchmarks, but falls spectacularly in Civilization V. If this is not the game you are aiming for and want to invest AMD, then the FX-8350 is a good choice for dual GPU gaming.
> 
> A CPU for Tri-GPU Gaming: i7-3770K with an x8/x4/x4 (AMD) or PLX (NVIDIA) motherboard
> 
> By moving up in GPU power we also have to boost the CPU power in order to see the best scaling at 1440p. It might be a sad thing to hear but the only CPU in our testing that provides the top frame rates at this level is the top line Ivy Bridge model. For a comparison point, the Sandy Bridge-E 6-core results were often very similar, but the price jump to such as setup is prohibitive to all but the most sturdy of wallets.
> 
> As noted in the introduction, using 3-way on NVIDIA with Ivy Bridge will require a PLX motherboard in order to get enough lanes to satisfy the SLI requirement of x8 minimum per CPU. This also raises the bar in terms of price, as PLX motherboards start around the $280 mark. For a 3-way AMD setup, an x8/x4/x4 enabled motherboard performs similarly to a PLX enabled one, and ahead of the slightly crippled x8/x8 + x4 variations. However investing in a PLX board would help moving to a 4-way setup should that be your intended goal. In either scenario, at stock clocks, the i7-3770K is the processor of choice from our testing suite.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I don't get why you are upset. The Manufacturer gave it a different stepping designation. What more do you need?


Oh by the way, I like how people deny that a Manufacturer giving a different stepping designation is a real change and then believe the Manufacturer when they give them tables with features like 'FP calc'.

Did you use a nuclear microscope to investigate those features? Because if you call them liars when it gets to stepping, I doubt they wouldn't be liars about those other stuff you immediately believe in.

(PS. They are not liars about such basic stuff the competitor can easily investigate)


----------



## tictoc

You seemed a little more skeptical of the differences 4 days ago.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> What have they changed? Is it the BIOS, a firmware, or something more involved? It's definitely nothing of the main characteristics most tables list (transistor count, etc.) so if it is something in the physical part itself it must be obscure.


Back on topic, at this point it will just be nice to see a new GPU from AMD. Hopefully it pushes the 780, and/or the Titan, so that we have a little more competition at the top


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tictoc*
> 
> You seemed a little more skeptical


The horror, I have the capability to evolve, how horrible of me.

Plus, I didn't even do something bad. I investigated general knowledge and nobody had something to contribute. i.e. I will still take the word of the Manufacturer that they improved the chp - slightly - above that of AMD fans. Besides, the same people blindly believe Manufactuers when they give general features and then call them liars when they make small changes? Please. Besides, such lies would be easily exposed by competitors and utilized.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Oh by the way, I like how people deny that a Manufacturer giving a different stepping designation is a real change and then believe the Manufacturer when they give them tables with features like 'FP calc'.
> 
> Did you use a nuclear microscope to investigate those features? Because if you call them liars when it gets to stepping, I doubt they wouldn't be liars about those other stuff you immediately believe in.
> 
> (PS. They are not liars about such basic stuff the competitor can easily investigate)


Do you have a GTX 770? I have a GTX 680, let's compare clock for clock.
Valley Benchmark with tweaks stated in the OP.

(By the way, Brettjv is a pretty neutral moderator and a very wise man, I think you shouldn't use arrogance on him)


----------



## malmental

sitting back and watching....

fateswarm - KaRLiToS doesn't mess around..
bring your A game.


----------



## fateswarm

I don't have a 770. But I'll like to see the results too. Don't people routinely claim in the 770 club that they see 2-3 FPS differences on the same clocks? I do not expect huge differences. In fact, I do not even believe NVIDIA increased the performance with the stepping increase. I mainly expect they made it more stable in overclocking. But you never know.. they might also have increased performance, if those people see 2-3 FPS.


----------



## Phelan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I don't have a 770. But I'll like to see the results too. Don't people routinely claim in the 770 club that they see 2-3 FPS differences on the same clocks? I do not expect huge differences. In fact, I do not even believe NVIDIA increased the performance with the stepping increase. I mainly expect they made it more stable in overclocking. But you never know.. they might also have increased performance, if those people see 2-3 FPS.


When there's proof of that much higher performance at the same clocks, I'm in. Otherwise, just hearsay.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yungbenny911*
> 
> *Single Card
> 
> 1440p
> 
> Yungbenny911 --- i7 3770K @ 4.8 GHz --- GTX 770 --- 1320 MHz / 1954 MHz --- 33.6 FPS --- 1405*


*IPC Core ( clock / FPS ) = 39 ............ IPC Memory ( clock / FPS ) = 58*

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> *1440p*
> 
> *KaRLiToS - - - - i7 3930k @ 4.6 Ghz - - - - GTX 680 @ 1176 / 1652 - - - 1440p - - - 31 fps*


*IPC Core ( clock / FPS ) = 38 ............ IPC Memory ( clock / FPS ) = 53*

*Looking at the IPC calculations I did, clock for clock they are around the same.*


----------



## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> *IPC Core ( clock / FPS ) = 39 ............ IPC Memory ( clock / FPS ) = 58*
> *IPC Core ( clock / FPS ) = 38 ............ IPC Memory ( clock / FPS ) = 53*
> 
> *Looking at the IPC calculations I did, clock for clock they are around the same.*


And it's not taking into account possible nonlinearities on clockspeed increases over the range, so yes, it can be safely said they are almost identical clock for clock.


----------



## toX0rz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DUpgrade*
> 
> I think the HD8000 got skipped when they just weren't making anything better than the 7970. I noticed the prices of any HD79XX card went up anywhere from $20-50 right after that. I'm wondering what happens when they run out of numbers to call these cards, perhaps there will be a FX line instead of using HD in the future?


Jeez, nothing was skipped, its just a name..


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Oh by the way, I like how people deny that a Manufacturer giving a different stepping designation is a real change and then believe the Manufacturer when they give them tables with features like 'FP calc'.
> 
> Did you use a nuclear microscope to investigate those features? Because if you call them liars when it gets to stepping, I doubt they wouldn't be liars about those other stuff you immediately believe in.
> 
> (PS. They are not liars about such basic stuff the competitor can easily investigate)
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a GTX 770? I have a GTX 680, let's compare clock for clock.
> Valley Benchmark with tweaks stated in the OP.
> 
> (By the way, Brettjv is a pretty neutral moderator and a very wise man, I think you shouldn't use arrogance on him)
Click to expand...

Geeze reading the posts of the quoted is real annoying. That there is ignore list material.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Geeze reading the posts of the quoted is real annoying. That there is ignore list material.


The new regent square, claim first, then decide to actually look for the correct answer after the fact(or not), then get upset and defensive when someone proves them wrong. I haven't seen him post a single link as proof of any his opinions in any thread.

Remember, he very much claimed the 770 as the best buy in that price....said it was better then a 680 and 7970 (for super secret reasons a nuclear microscope can only discover). Then brings up lithography of tcsm vs intel fabs when he was dis-proven (as though it has any relevance to what he originally stated).


----------



## barcode71

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alastair*
> 
> I'll take one 8970 or two 8870's!


No one reads anymore.

AMD is skipping the 8000 naming scheme and calling it the 9000 series.


----------



## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *barcode71*
> 
> No one reads anymore.
> 
> AMD is skipping the 8000 naming scheme and calling it the 9000 series.


This. The HD8 series are the naming for the OEM/laptop parts.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artikbot*
> 
> This. The HD8 series are the naming for the OEM/laptop parts.


Its even the Title of the thread / article.


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Meh. I've noticed a lot of contamination of the knowledge about it by bitcoin miners. Plus any benchmark that managed to show it higher on general gaming, never did it with more than 2-3 FPS and in most cases, it even loses in some games in the same review. And there's theoretical speculation about the 1GB extra VRAM which does not apply to most 1080p users or those knowing they don't need it. Let alone we're talking about overclocked vs stock a lot of the time. e.g. there is a malicious or at least false rumor that the 770 is just an overclocked 680 GPU which is easily proven to be wrong: The GPU clock is only marginally raised, the VRAM is faster and the GPU is not even the same. It has a higher stepping and hence it most likely has stability and overclocking tweaks.
> 
> In general, calling 7970 unequivocally faster when both are overclocked is utter nonsense.


Let's look at it in this light, some people do a lot more on their towers than just gaming... and the 7970s and 7950s price/performance marks way better than most all of NVidia's high end offerings when it comes to high volume crunching. My dad does folding for the Kepler planetary discovery project... his folding rig with CFx Radeon 5870s fold faster and outperform SLI'd GTX 770s, 760s, and 680s. Also, the HD 7970 is equal to or better than GTX 680/770s at higher resolutions (2560 x 1440/1600K).... dig up the data on your own, there's plenty of it out there and at the prices and performance levels AMD offers their cards for, the performance easily leads a lot of people to AMD GPUs. GPUs are a much more friendly market for AMD than the CPU market.

As far as the HD 9000 series is concerned, the last scuttlebutt out was that the 9000 was supposed to be the 20nm GPU core die. Whether that actually turns out to be true or not remains to be seen, but if it is truly AMD'a next-gen 20nm GPU, I see no reason that it shouldn't handily compete with or outperform the 790/Titan. I do of course concede that first version releases of new technology can have their problems and limitations. I'm not stating anything for certain until there is hard data to look at, but as I see it there's no reason to not at least consider it a viable possibility and hope for it to be true.


----------



## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> Its even the Title of the thread / article.


Yeah


----------



## TormenteD

I think you've all gone massively off topic. What is it with these 770 vs 7970 comparisons in nearly every AMD-related thread anyway. Seems to me like some people are trying to justify their GPU purchase. To say one is best than the other is very narrow-minded. Please leave this topic if you're going to continue this pointless debate.


----------



## Blackops_2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TormenteD*
> 
> I think you've all gone massively off topic. What is it with these 770 vs 7970 comparisons in nearly every AMD-related thread anyway. Seems to me like some people are trying to justify their GPU purchase. To say one is best than the other is very narrow-minded. Please leave this topic if you're going to continue this pointless debate.


Welcome to OCN







it's honestly hard to stay on topic when it comes to GPU oriented threads. What usually happens is this.

News/article posted of certain manufacturers GPU

discussion

A loyalist to one of the companies chimes in bashing the other about something

we end up here..

Anyhow we're three months away from October i hope these rumors are true, because i'll be picking up two 9970s if possible. I think BF4 being bundled will sell it alone honestly. Will be interesting to see where it lands performance wise.


----------



## computerparts

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lambanog*
> 
> I have a feeling that the 9970 will be the fastest card in the planet overclock. Just a gut feeling.


I hope not! Otherwise, we'll be seeing a $1100 price tag along with it


----------



## sebkow

8000 series failed testing trust me I know lol


----------



## microfister




----------



## GenoOCAU

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sebkow*
> 
> 8000 series failed testing trust me I know lol


Are you talking about the OEM 8000-series AKA 7000-series rebrand?

How did it fail, not that big of a jump from 7000-series, your comment is so vague !!


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sebkow*
> 
> 8000 series failed testing trust me I know lol


Coming from a future lawyer and one who had two chemists as parents, I'm sorry but I'll never believe something like that comment without some kind of linked proof.

IMO, they updated the 7000 series and re-branded them as 8000s to go with the Centurion processors in pre-fab builds for performance vendors, and the real next GPU core design will be the 9000s, what we were all expecting to be the 8000 series a year and a half ago. Even though the 780 performs about 10-15% better than the 7970, most people other than die-hard Team Green fans won't buy them when you compare a $650-700 price tag to 10 or 15 % less performance for $375-425, so AMD had no true need or justification to launch a new architecture or core for the 8000 series when they can stay competitive by just re-branding and beefing up the 7970, same as the GTX 760 and 770 are just re-branded the 670s and 680s. So really, in the current market there's not much reason for them to make the 8000 series anything more than a beefed up 7000 series re-brand. In a way it's much more likely we can blame NVidia's move with the 760 and the 770 for the reasons AMD revamped their release plans for the next gen of GPUs.


----------



## Master__Shake

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sebkow*
> 
> 8000 series failed testing trust me I know lol


they could have overclocked the 7970, slapped a new sticker on it, and called it a gtx 77...

wait no nvidia beat them to it.


----------



## PureBlackFire

*sigh*


----------



## twitchyzero

anyone surprised AMD is releasing GCN 2.0 so late?
I mean it's only 1 fiscal quarter earlier than a 20nm Maxwell with unified mem

Why not just let Nvidia have market domination for 2013....then focus on console launch and ready up the AMD 20nm?


----------



## Vesku

Don't expect non-Apple product TSMC 20nm any sooner then March-April 2014.


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Master__Shake*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *sebkow*
> 
> 8000 series failed testing trust me I know lol
> 
> 
> 
> they could have overclocked the 7970, slapped a new sticker on it, and called it a gtx 77...
> 
> wait no nvidia beat them to it.
Click to expand...


----------



## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sebkow*
> 
> 8000 series failed testing trust me I know lol


And they made HD9 series in about 3 months or so.


----------



## Juunsten

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thestache*
> 
> People only bought it because it was Nvidia and their drivers and hardware frame metering is regarded as solid.
> 
> *Nobody* is buying a $1000 AMD GPU with *suspect crossfire* drivers and lack of basic functions like Vsync in the current market. I'm no fan boy and if the AMD card is truly excellent with excellent drivers and a good price I'll consider them and pass on the infomation that it is but it will take a lot at this point for the GTX Titans demographic to consider an AMD competitor and welcome it with open arms. AMD is capable of it we just need to see them do it.


Some wild implications there. If bolded parts are true, I must be the only one who values computing power and everyone else has more than 1 gfx card... no offense meant.


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jomama22*
> 
> So it adds 0 performance increase and minor tweaking and/or fixes here and there....
> 
> Its the same chip...it adds nothing of value beyong a sticker. You set a 680 and 770 to the same clocks and guess what happens.


one thing about that though, only a few and not all GTX 680's can hit 7K mem speeds.
my GTX 680 DCII TOP could and of course GTX 680 Lightnings, maybe one or two others.

Gigabyte just announced a GTX 780 WF3 V2 which really has me pissed off...








another VRM improvement and more voltage control.

just saying.









direct email to me from a buyer associate friend of mine for iMicros and Newbizz, info on the WF3 (Rev 2.0)
it doesn't have the list of enhancement or changes but only model and UPC code changes.
the actual physical changes are still 'hush-hush' for now but I kinda was informed already..


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> one thing about that though, only a few and not all GTX 680's can hit 7K mem speeds.
> my GTX 680 DCII TOP could and of course GTX 680 Lightnings, maybe one or two others.
> 
> Gigabyte just announced a GTX 780 WF3 V2 which really has me pissed off...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another VRM improvement and more voltage control.
> 
> just saying.


last I check, VRAM chips are not part of the die







. Ask the 7970 owners about how horrid edelphi mem is compared to hynix when ocing. Its actually funny, the 7970 came stock with hynix rated for 1500mhz yet stock clocked it to 1325 lol.


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jomama22*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> one thing about that though, only a few and not all GTX 680's can hit 7K mem speeds.
> my GTX 680 DCII TOP could and of course GTX 680 Lightnings, maybe one or two others.
> 
> Gigabyte just announced a GTX 780 WF3 V2 which really has me pissed off...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another VRM improvement and more voltage control.
> 
> just saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> last I check, VRAM chips are not part of the die
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Ask the 7970 owners about how horrid edelphi mem is compared to hynix when ocing. Its actually funny, the 7970 came stock with hynix rated for 1500mhz yet stock clocked it to 1325 lol.
Click to expand...

so we all have issues then... LOL









edited my last posting...
thanks.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> so we all have issues then... LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edited my last posting...
> thanks.


Lol yes we all do. Not to surprised about the v2 wind force. The giga soc 680 had an unlocked bios that could be used with artmoney as well.

It seems evident that Nvidia has either offered a middle ground to AIBs or they have decided that sales are low enough (in respect tobactual volume of a $700 card)to bite the bullet on RMAs


----------



## Nonehxc

I see a memory downgrade...256 bit bus on Rev 2.0 vs 384 bit bus in original GTX 780 WF3...


----------



## boxleitnerb

A guy on AT forums claims to have first hand info. I talked with him a bit and threw some specs around, trying to get him to say hot or cold.

2560 SP
48 ROPs
7 Gbps GDDR5
etc.

He said, I was close-ish...but not for the top model.








I suppose that means the 9970 will have even more tham 2560 SP?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boxleitnerb*
> 
> A guy on AT forums claims to have first hand info. I talked with him a bit and threw some specs around, trying to get him to say hot or cold.
> 
> 2560 SP
> 48 ROPs
> 7 Gbps GDDR5
> etc.


INB4 dumb corrections about Gbps being the transfer rate of the memory not the actual clock.
Well al know what he means leave him alone about this








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boxleitnerb*
> 
> He said, I was close-ish...but not for the top model.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose that means the 9970 will have even more tham 2560 SP?


If it is higher this card might really be the domination of dominations and therefore:


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *boxleitnerb*
> 
> A guy on AT forums claims to have first hand info. I talked with him a bit and threw some specs around, trying to get him to say hot or cold.
> 
> 2560 SP
> 48 ROPs
> 7 Gbps GDDR5
> etc.
> 
> He said, I was close-ish...but not for the top model.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose that means the 9970 will have even more tham 2560 SP?


sounds nice, but I doubt there will be a model with more than 2560 SP unless the cards are coming in December-March 2014 time frame and they are trying to get the jump on maxwell.


----------



## iamhollywood5

Gahhh i just don't know what to do... I've been wanting to put a 2nd 7970 in my system for a while now but I've been waiting for the CrossFire fix drivers. They were projected for July. It's July 14 today and there is still no crossfire fix, so I am still refusing get another 7970. I have plans to get that 2nd 7970 and then get a water cooling loop for both, and after that's all said and done, that's a big investment. I don't want to be kicking myself for such an investment when the 9970 (supposedly) launches in a few months. I didn't wanna upgrade from Tahiti until AMD put out a 20nm chip, so if I knew for sure that the 9970 was a 28nm core with performance equivalent to about the GTX 780 I'd probably just order that 2nd 7970 today...


----------



## s-x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> Gahhh i just don't know what to do... I've been wanting to put a 2nd 7970 in my system for a while now but I've been waiting for the CrossFire fix drivers. They were projected for July. It's July 14 today and there is still no crossfire fix, so I am still refusing get another 7970. I have plans to get that 2nd 7970 and then get a water cooling loop for both, and after that's all said and done, that's a big investment. I don't want to be kicking myself for such an investment when the 9970 (supposedly) launches in a few months. I didn't wanna upgrade from Tahiti until AMD put out a 20nm chip, so if I knew for sure that the 9970 was a 28nm core with performance equivalent to about the GTX 780 I'd probably just order that 2nd 7970 today...


They officially announced it being released on the 31st. Honestly if i were in your shoes id hold off for a little bit longer, when the 9 series launches in a couple of months, 7970 will drop in price both new and used, and you can pick up a second one at a bargain.


----------



## Spin Cykle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> Gahhh i just don't know what to do... I've been wanting to put a 2nd 7970 in my system for a while now but I've been waiting for the CrossFire fix drivers. They were projected for July. It's July 14 today and there is still no crossfire fix, so I am still refusing get another 7970. I have plans to get that 2nd 7970 and then get a water cooling loop for both, and after that's all said and done, that's a big investment. I don't want to be kicking myself for such an investment when the 9970 (supposedly) launches in a few months. I didn't wanna upgrade from Tahiti until AMD put out a 20nm chip, so if I knew for sure that the 9970 was a 28nm core with performance equivalent to about the GTX 780 I'd probably just order that 2nd 7970 today...


I'd say its safe to say that there will be a crossfire fix and buying a second 7970 after the price drops from the 9970 release will yield more performance than a single 9970. Even if the 9970 beats the titan the price tag will be huge, greater than $550. And for less than that you can buy an entire loop, blocks and second 7970. This is of course only my opinion.


----------



## iamhollywood5

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *s-x*
> 
> They officially announced it being released on the 31st. Honestly if i were in your shoes id hold off for a little bit longer, when the 9 series launches in a couple of months, 7970 will drop in price both new and used, and you can pick up a second one at a bargain.


That's a good point, although I don't know how much confidence I have that their will be reference 7970s floating around by the time 9970s are being pumped out. A true reference 7970 is pretty much the only card I will buy. Still, maybe i'll find some insanely cheap used reference 7970s once the 9970 is readily available.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> That's a good point, although I don't know how much confidence I have that their will be reference 7970s floating around by the time 9970s are being pumped out. A true reference 7970 is pretty much the only card I will buy. Still, maybe i'll find some insanely cheap used reference 7970s once the 9970 is readily available.


You could have my lightnings lol.


----------



## OwnedINC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> That's a good point, although I don't know how much confidence I have that their will be reference 7970s floating around by the time 9970s are being pumped out. A true reference 7970 is pretty much the only card I will buy. Still, maybe i'll find some insanely cheap used reference 7970s once the 9970 is readily available.


I have a couple reference 7970s that will be sold when 9970s come out.


----------



## iamhollywood5

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OwnedINC*
> 
> I have a couple reference 7970s that will be sold when 9970s come out.


Keep me in mind then







do they OC well?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jomama22*
> 
> You could have my lightnings lol.


do you have waterblocks for them?


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> Keep me in mind then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do they OC well?
> do you have waterblocks for them?


Look at the rig, sure do.


----------



## kingduqc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I don't have a 770. But I'll like to see the results too. Don't people routinely claim in the 770 club that they see 2-3 FPS differences on the same clocks? I do not expect huge differences. In fact, I do not even believe NVIDIA increased the performance with the stepping increase. I mainly expect they made it more stable in overclocking. But you never know.. they might also have increased performance, if those people see 2-3 FPS.


I would argue that 2-3 fps is in the margin of error, I could run 10 benchmarks and most bench will have those 2-5 fps difference. 770 and 680 offer same gaming performance, it's the same damn chip with a sticker on it + a price drop.


----------



## errorlulz

Wonder how's the price going to be at release


----------



## Nemessss

http://wccftech.com/amd-volcanic-islands-hawaii-gpu-confirmed-amds-training-website/


----------



## s-x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nemessss*
> 
> http://wccftech.com/amd-volcanic-islands-hawaii-gpu-confirmed-amds-training-website/


At this point its pretty much confirmed as a Q4 release date. Theres too many rumors that point to Q4, and relatively none that point to 2014. I guess Christmas is coming early this year.


----------



## errorlulz

@s-x
Problem is its all rumour and they don't mean anything


----------



## errorlulz

Triple post damn wp


----------



## maarten12100

26th of September which would make the launch october well wouldn't that make the 20nm transition AKA pirate islands within 6 months max of a previous release it seems fast.
Especially if you take into account that rumour had that it would be early Q1 2014


----------



## s-x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *errorlulz*
> 
> @s-x
> Problem is its all rumour and they don't mean anything


Not really. As long as the rumors came from a credible place and are realistic and there are multiple other rumors confirming what has previously been said, then its an extremely good indication that its true. Lets take for example phones, the galaxy s4 and iphone 5 specs and release months were predicted by multiple rumors half a year before their release. If this was the only rumor, then yeah, dont go by it, but its like the 6th that AMD will release it in q4.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kingduqc*
> 
> I would argue that 2-3 fps is in the margin of error


The margin of error does not go only up.


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> The margin of error does not go only up.


you speak the truth.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> The margin of error does not go only up.


true tough that doesn't make it less within the 5% marge but I agree with your point it should be due to the memory being faster.


----------



## SuperMudkip

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> Oh man, I just got a 780.......
> 
> I hate this getting-the-latest-GPU bug.


That's Moore's Law for ya!


----------



## SuperMudkip

I really wonder if the naming scheme is going to be 10XXX after 9XXX? They really need to come up with a better naming scheme after the 9XXX series.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TormenteD*
> 
> I think you've all gone massively off topic. What is it with these 770 vs 7970 comparisons in nearly every AMD-related thread anyway. Seems to me like some people are trying to justify their GPU purchase. To say one is best than the other is very narrow-minded. Please leave this topic if you're going to continue this pointless debate.


what should they compare 7970 with? intel or 7870?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> Coming from a future lawyer and one who had two chemists as parents, I'm sorry but I'll never believe something like that comment without some kind of linked proof.
> 
> IMO, they updated the 7000 series and re-branded them as 8000s to go with the Centurion processors in pre-fab builds for performance vendors, and the real next GPU core design will be the 9000s, what we were all expecting to be the 8000 series a year and a half ago. Even though the 780 performs about 10-15% better than the 7970, most people other than die-hard Team Green fans won't buy them when you compare a $650-700 price tag to 10 or 15 % less performance for $375-425, so AMD had no true need or justification to launch a new architecture or core for the 8000 series when they can stay competitive by just re-branding and beefing up the 7970, same as the GTX 760 and 770 are just re-branded the 670s and 680s. So really, in the current market there's not much reason for them to make the 8000 series anything more than a beefed up 7000 series re-brand. In a way it's much more likely we can blame NVidia's move with the 760 and the 770 for the reasons AMD revamped their release plans for the next gen of GPUs.


780 gives you 55-60avg fps on ultra @1440p where 7970 would give you 45. thats why 780 is good buy, if you have the money.
880 might be worth its price if it can give you min 60fps in games at single monitor setup (1080/1440/1600p).

best
revro


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> what should they compare 7970 with? intel or 7870?
> 
> best
> revro


tbh sir, this is not a 7970 topic and intel doesn't make discrete graphics cards so I think the answer to your question is neither, at least as far as this thread goes.


----------



## GenoOCAU

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> what should they compare 7970 with? intel or 7870?
> 780 gives you 55-60avg fps on ultra @1440p where 7970 would give you 45. thats why 780 is good buy, if you have the money.
> 880 might be worth its price if it can give you min 60fps in games at single monitor setup (1080/1440/1600p).
> 
> best
> revro


How do you figure that when its cheaper to add a second 7970 and get better frames then a single 780?


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GenoOCAU*
> 
> How do you figure that when its cheaper to add a second 7970 and get better frames then a single 780?


i said "if you have the money". also the bill of 2 250w cards is higher then of a single one.
anyway if you have single 7970 it makes sense to go for another. in my case i upgraded from 660ftw to 780oc

best
revro


----------



## sebkow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> Coming from a future lawyer and one who had two chemists as parents, I'm sorry but I'll never believe something like that comment without some kind of linked proof.
> 
> IMO, they updated the 7000 series and re-branded them as 8000s to go with the Centurion processors in pre-fab builds for performance vendors, and the real next GPU core design will be the 9000s, what we were all expecting to be the 8000 series a year and a half ago. Even though the 780 performs about 10-15% better than the 7970, most people other than die-hard Team Green fans won't buy them when you compare a $650-700 price tag to 10 or 15 % less performance for $375-425, so AMD had no true need or justification to launch a new architecture or core for the 8000 series when they can stay competitive by just re-branding and beefing up the 7970, same as the GTX 760 and 770 are just re-branded the 670s and 680s. So really, in the current market there's not much reason for them to make the 8000 series anything more than a beefed up 7000 series re-brand. In a way it's much more likely we can blame NVidia's move with the 760 and the 770 for the reasons AMD revamped their release plans for the next gen of GPUs.


Im not leaking anything but im sure you can google it once its out or sneak into the ati lab and find out urself
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GenoOCAU*
> 
> Are you talking about the OEM 8000-series AKA 7000-series rebrand?
> 
> How did it fail, not that big of a jump from 7000-series, your comment is so vague !!


I cant go into great detail sorry


----------



## malmental




----------



## Cores

I wonder if the HD 9950 would be here in time for Xmas or be able to maintain enough stock... Hoping to pick one up.


----------



## Sir Amik Vase

Getting bored of 7970 CF, I want the 9970's already

Can't run ARMA III at max!
If I wanted to run at less than max I'd be a console peasant.


----------



## Cores

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> Getting bored of 7970 CF, I want the 9970's already
> 
> Can't run ARMA III at max!
> If I wanted to run at less than max I'd be a console peasant.


Don't worry about Arma III, it's to be expected. It's still in Beta and not optimized enough yet. It's common to have this issue.


----------



## erocker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> Getting bored of 7970 CF, I want the 9970's already
> 
> Can't run ARMA III at max!
> If I wanted to run at less than max I'd be a console peasant.


Hell, running at medium settings for most games will yield better quality than a console.


----------



## GTR Mclaren

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moustache*
> 
> This is the truth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GTX Titan
> GTX 780
> HD 7970 GHz
> GTX 770
> GTX 680
> HD 7970
> GTX 670
> HD 7950
> GTX 760
> GTX 660 ti
> HD 7870 XT


7970Ghz is below the 770

and the "normal" 7970 is above the 680


----------



## malmental

at stock settings you can also put the 680 ahead of the 7970.
stock settings that is.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GTR Mclaren*
> 
> 7970Ghz is below the 770
> 
> and the "normal" 7970 is above the 680


No it is not GK104 is gimped and so is the cards in oc'ability
770 only has faster ram and a better pcb for running the higher oc.


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *GTR Mclaren*
> 
> 7970Ghz is below the 770
> 
> and the "normal" 7970 is above the 680
> 
> 
> 
> No it is not GK104 is gimped and so is the cards in oc'ability
> 770 only has faster ram and a better pcb for running the higher oc.
Click to expand...

*sigh*
here we go again.
it's already been proven and even 'more respected' Radeon guys then you few have concurred.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malmental*
> 
> *sigh*
> here we go again.
> it's already been proven and even 'more respected' Radeon guys then you few have concurred.


Defending locked gimped tiny garbage cards as a parrot isn't helping anybody.
Besides that it is OT


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> Getting bored of 7970 CF, I want the 9970's already
> 
> Can't run ARMA III at max!
> If I wanted to run at less than max I'd be a console peasant.


cpu?


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GTR Mclaren*
> 
> 7970Ghz is below the 770
> 
> and the "normal" 7970 is above the 680


the giggle hurts and the 770 is debatable, but the 680 is outright faster than the "normal" 7970 at stock. his list is pretty much fine how it is.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PureBlackFire*
> 
> the giggle hurts and the 770 is debatable, but the 680 is outright faster than the "normal" 7970 at stock. his list is pretty much fine how it is.


of course if you only take games into account I should grant that it is faster on average then.
If you take everything into account then the 7970 wins even at stock.

Since barely anyone here cares about something other than gaming guess that makes a right


----------



## fateswarm

I hope you're not talking about mining coins.

Economic advice: They'll tank.

The funny thing about them is that they'll tank once anyone takes them seriously so they are doomed to tank via a self-destructing spiral, since the big heads can simply just duplicate the system and destroy its value in a couple of days.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I hope you're not talking about mining coins.
> 
> Economic advice: They'll tank.
> 
> The funny thing about them is that they'll tank once anyone takes them seriously so they are doomed to tank via a self-destructing spiral, since the big heads can simply just duplicate the system and destroy its value in a couple of days.


Not only hashing of scrypt but non cuda optimized computing overall


----------



## zealord

it takes AMD way too long to bring these. 20nm will be out in mid 2014 and the 7970 and 680/770/780/Titan is enough until then, consindering only a few games like BF4 are coming out anytime soon which require good hardware. And as far as we know a 770~ish card is still enough for BF4. A 9970 would not make settings which are completely unplayable on current hardware suddenly smoothly playable.

Lets just hope we will see a closer fight with 20nm from AMD and Nvidia.


----------



## malmental

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I hope you're not talking about mining coins.
> 
> Economic advice: They'll tank.
> 
> The funny thing about them is that they'll tank once anyone takes them seriously so they are doomed to tank via a self-destructing spiral, since the big heads can simply just duplicate the system and destroy its value in a couple of days.
> 
> 
> 
> Not only hashing of scrypt but non cuda optimized computing overall
Click to expand...

good point...


----------



## CrazyElf

Fingers crossed. Let's hope that after the overclock potential is taken into account, that it is a winner.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zealord*
> 
> it takes AMD way too long to bring these. 20nm will be out in mid 2014 and the 7970 and 680/770/780/Titan is enough until then,


There is a gap on the 28nm market: Something better than a 770 (or a well overclocked 7970) but worse than a GK110. I get a very strong impression a lot of people would bite the bullet and get a $400 chip but very few would go above $600 per card. So, something that is at $400 or up to $500 and clearly beats anything but the 780, will be a winner. If it marginally approaches the 780 at those margins, even better.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Fingers crossed. Let's hope that after the overclock potential is taken into account, that it is a winner.


does not matter if it is slower, so long as i can play all my games with one driver. not one for BF3 and then uninstall and install another just to play FC3.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> There is a gap on the 28nm market: Something better than a 770 (or a well overclocked 7970) but worse than a GK110. I get a very strong impression a lot of people would bite the bullet and get a $400 chip but very few would go above $600 per card. So, something that is at $400 or up to $500 and clearly beats anything but the 780, will be a winner. If it marginally approaches the 780 at those margins, even better.


If AMD's confidence was correct the 9950 (or the r9-9950 whatever) would fill that gap.
I doubt that the 9970 will beat the EVGA GTX780 classified hands down but if they think they can do it fine by me (max oc vs max oc)


----------



## fateswarm

I find it more important to them to get between 770/7970 oc and 780 with a ~$450 chip than getting between 780 and Titan. I suspect that above $600 per card the market diminishes dangerously.

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of worldwide Titan users have already posted in the Titan thread here.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I find it more important to them to get between 770/7970 oc and 780 with a ~$450 chip than getting between 780 and Titan. I suspect that above $600 per card the market diminishes dangerously.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of worldwide Titan users have already posted in the Titan thread here.


Once you get above $350-$400, sales volume drops drastically but the sweetspot is the $175-$225. There really aren't many people willing (or needing) to purchase a gfx card with that much power. Most would rather buy a console for gaming at $400 than just a part of their computer.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> does not matter if it is slower, so long as i can play all my games with one driver. not one for BF3 and then uninstall and install another just to play FC3.


Which drivers do you use for bf3 and which for fc3?


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> Which drivers do you use for bf3 and which for fc3?


i only own amd cards. i only use one driver version for all my games. i expect the next card from amd to do the same.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> i only own amd cards. i only use one driver version for all my games. i expect the next card from amd to do the same.


Nevermind then. Your post sounded like you use different drivers for these games and from my experience 11.5 drivers are solid for both of these games and 11.6 betas should be too.


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> Getting bored of 7970 CF, I want the 9970's already
> 
> Can't run ARMA III at max!
> If I wanted to run at less than max I'd be a console peasant.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> cpu?


By his sig rig he's running an i5-2500K @ 4.6 GHz so it's possible but unlikely that it's his CPU throttling... My guess is that it probably has something more to do with the crossfire driver issues that AMD should be releasing a patch for soon or the GPUs getting too hot and throttling...


----------



## ar3f

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> Getting bored of 7970 CF, I want the 9970's already
> 
> Can't run ARMA III at max!
> If I wanted to run at less than max I'd be a console peasant.


***********
Hmm,
no 10xSSD Raid0, only 12GB 1600 RAM... of course you cannot run much stuff


----------



## Nachmanowicz

Any confirmations about the units sent to partners for developing custom models??? I hope those babies will be out by october.


----------



## kx11

AMD a beast in benchmark

a kitty in games


----------



## Goku SysOP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nachmanowicz*
> 
> Any confirmations about the units sent to partners for developing custom models??? I hope those babies will be out by october.


no board partners have any 9970 samples yet, all the rumors were about board partners getting the new desktop oland boards, 9970 may or may not be released by October, but what I do know is no board partners have any 9970s at this point in time

oland will be HD 8570/8670/9570/9670


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Goku SysOP*
> 
> no board partners have any 9970 samples yet, all the rumors were about board partners getting the new desktop oland board


Did you just invent that rumor? There is absolutely no such source confirming that. They were all explicit about 9970:

http://www.extrahardware.com/news/amd-started-shipping-engineering-radeon-hd-9970-samples-manufacturers

"*AMD Started Shipping Engineering Radeon HD 9970 Samples To Manufacturers*"

Don't spread lies please. Then again, they might all be lies. But at least get an identity.


----------



## Goku SysOP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Did you just invent that rumor? There is absolutely no such source confirming that. They were all explicit about 9970:
> 
> http://www.extrahardware.com/news/amd-started-shipping-engineering-radeon-hd-9970-samples-manufacturers
> 
> "*AMD Started Shipping Engineering Radeon HD 9970 Samples To Manufacturers*"
> 
> Don't spread lies please. Then again, they might all be lies. But at least get an identity.


no you misread what I posted, all the rumors were about the 9970, however it was mistaken because the day that rumor started the oland boards were being sent to board partners.. and since I talk to board partners... I know what they have


----------



## ladcrooks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Goku SysOP*
> 
> no you misread what I posted, all the rumors were about the 9970, however it was mistaken because the day that rumor started the oland boards were being sent to board partners.. and since I talk to board partners... I know what they have


So do they have hd-9970 ?

In Queens English - yes or no?


----------



## Goku SysOP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ladcrooks*
> 
> So do they have hd-9970 ?
> 
> In Queens English - yes or no?


no, at least not right now, this does not mean it wont meet an October deadline.


----------



## ladcrooks

thanks


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Goku SysOP*
> 
> no you misread what I posted, all the rumors were about the 9970, however it was mistaken because the day that rumor started the oland boards were being sent to board partners.. and since I talk to board partners... I know what they have


Ok, you are an original source. I have no way to confirm it, but I like your resolve. +rep. Your first rep!


----------



## Mopar63

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just a nickname*
> 
> ).
> Computer and video game are both a waste of money and time. It's fun but it is really not worth it IMO.


Your right but then again so is going to movies, buying music and going to concerts, watching sports and going to games or buying sports related material such as team shirts. Even drinking beer, dancing or any other activity that is meant for you to have fun. As with all of those the value is purely a personal one.


----------



## ladcrooks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> Your right but then again so is going to movies, buying music and going to concerts, watching sports and going to games or buying sports related material such as team shirts. Even drinking beer, dancing or any other activity that is meant for you to have fun. As with all of those the value is purely a personal one.


For sure!









And when your stuck indoors because of bad weather, such as we have in the UK , a good game lets you forget who you are and where you are









And a game is better for the brain then watching TV


----------



## fateswarm

You're all very wrong. Games are an excellent way to train skills (skill set is depended on game). Then again, if you do learn those skills and then keep doing it is a waste of time, and some other activities are more beneficial. e.g. do you really want to be the best FPS player in the world when you already beat 80% of players? You learned the main skills, it's all about micromanaging details after a point that makes it a full time job. Or you learned to manipulate the MMO market. Do you really have to crash the economy or get 4 accounts? You're making it a job without learning new skills.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Goku SysOP*
> 
> no you misread what I posted, all the rumors were about the 9970, however it was mistaken because the day that rumor started the oland boards were being sent to board partners.. *and since I talk to board partners... I know what they have*


But how do you know so sure that it was a mistake due to Oland boards being shipped. (besides that Oland is renamed to 9xxx series acording rumours right?)
Really the last time I talked to Sapphire they didn't tell me what they had, unless you're an AMD rep or a AMD partner that argument seems backed by nothing.


----------



## EliteReplay

why we dont have any leak performance numbers?


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EliteReplay*
> 
> why we dont have any leak performance numbers?


because the cards are not close to launch.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EliteReplay*
> 
> why we dont have any leak performance numbers?


The first performance leak of the Titan was a month before launch so it'll be another month at least.


----------



## mltms

Quote:


> I was told when the new cards are coming out and some techinical info by an industry rep. All I can say is this is going to be an amazing card and its going to be here sooner than what the rumors say.
> 
> I'm not under an NDA but I would like to keep my relationship with said vendor so I don't want to say everything I know....


----------



## Cores

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mltms*


Who is that quote from?


----------



## mltms

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fegelein*
> 
> Who is that quote from?


http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1040079282#post1040079282


----------



## Goku SysOP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> But how do you know so sure that it was a mistake due to Oland boards being shipped. (besides that Oland is renamed to 9xxx series acording rumours right?)
> Really the last time I talked to Sapphire they didn't tell me what they had, unless you're an AMD rep or a AMD partner that argument seems backed by nothing.


sapphire is under NDA and I am not, sapphire cannot legally tell the public anything, however being that I maintain the largest GPU database on the internet.... it has its perks


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Goku SysOP*
> 
> sapphire is under NDA and I am not, sapphire cannot legally tell the public anything, however being that I maintain the largest GPU database on the internet.... it has its perks


If you're talking the truth you should get a TPU rep status or something








Besides that I noticed the Dell Dimension in your sig I had one of those back in the days (it was a dell dimension 2400 it was really slow somehow)


----------



## 4LC4PON3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just a nickname*
> 
> Until you find something in witch you think your money will have a better use, you will keep wasting it on computer parts. I am a student, I live with my parents so I could easily afford the best and latest. Even though I spent nearly a year checking price and news of video card, I couldn't justify spending that much for a new card (I sold the 300$ 7970 I had).
> 
> *Computer and video game are both a waste of money and time. It's fun but it is really not worth it IMO.*


Everyone has there own opinion but for myself my Gaming RIG is my life. Besides my 2 daughters and wife that is. If I did not have my Gaming Rig I would seriously go nuts. If my house is burning you will see my 2 girls in my left arms and my RIG in my right arm. Everything else can go


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3*
> 
> Everyone has there own opinion but for myself my Gaming RIG is my life. Besides my 2 daughters and wife that is. *If I did not have my Gaming Rig I would seriously go nuts. If my house is burning you will see my 2 girls in my left arms and my RIG in my right arm. Everything else can go*


You might wanna check if your wife got out, unless this is one of those crazy paradoxes where your wife is your gaming rig. (I'm pretty sure you've seen that quote as quite some people have it in their sig)
Quote:


> She asked which should go the PC or her, But that is a long time ago so I don't miss her any more.


----------



## Goku SysOP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> If you're talking the truth you should get a TPU rep status or something
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides that I noticed the Dell Dimension in your sig I had one of those back in the days (it was a dell dimension 2400 it was really slow somehow)


ooo how would I go about doing that? I would like a tpu rep status, and yea the dimension 3000 was also slow, but I put lots of money into it to make it the best it could be for the mobo it had, upgraded the 512mb 200 or 333 MT/s ram to 2gb 400MT/s and it has no agp or pcie slots so I bought the best pci gpu I could buy at the time, I still have the hd4350 pci in it lol and I upgraded the cpu from a Pentium 4 2.8ghz to a Pentium 4 HT 3.2GHz


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mltms*
> 
> http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1040079282#post1040079282


What's an 'industry rep'.

I'm going to treat those comments as 4chan trolls without further official confirmation.


----------



## alexmaia_br

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *DUpgrade*
> 
> I read somehwere the 9970 will be somewhere between a 780 and a titan. You're probably fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I came from 7970s CF to a 780 (2nd one coming soon) so its not the performance (nor the stutter since I didn't face it much).
> 
> Its reading about it and waiting for the official specs, then the leaked benchmarks/photos, then the official benchmarks, by then I'll be hooked.
> 
> That's what happened when the Titan was released, but I couldn't afford it, so once the 780 came out I got it, even though I really didn't need it at all....
> 
> So knowing myself, if the 9970 beats a 780, I'll need to get it, even though I'll probably have two 780s by then...........can't really explain why.
Click to expand...

I approve of this.









Myself, as soon as my GPU become second choice on the menu to update drivers, I go boinks.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Goku SysOP*
> 
> ooo how would I go about doing that? I would like a tpu rep status, and yea the dimension 3000 was also slow, but I put lots of money into it to make it the best it could be for the mobo it had, upgraded the 512mb 200 or 333 MT/s ram to 2gb 400MT/s and it has no agp or pcie slots so I bought the best pci gpu I could buy at the time, I still have the hd4350 pci in it lol and I upgraded the cpu from a Pentium 4 2.8ghz to a Pentium 4 HT 3.2GHz


Guess you should go to one of the mods we have plenty of artisyans (or whatever they call them) so named hardware reps so I wouldn't know why there can't be Database reps right


----------



## Goku SysOP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> What's an 'industry rep'.
> 
> I'm going to treat those comments as 4chan trolls without further official confirmation.


I wouldn't trust anyone saying they know someone who knows the true specs of the new boards coming out since not even the board partners know yet, amd is simply not ready to send samples in yet


----------



## Cores

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3*
> 
> Everyone has there own opinion but for myself my Gaming RIG is my life. Besides my 2 daughters and wife that is. If I did not have my Gaming Rig I would seriously go nuts. If my house is burning you will see my 2 girls in my left arms and my RIG in my right arm. Everything else can go


I'm sort of in the same situation. I'm not that much of a gamer but computing is my life. Without it, I don't know where I would be. It's all that I have left and it's something I actually enjoy.


----------



## Mombasa69

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sdlvx*
> 
> That's why AMD is releasing then. They're more than likely hoping for going for something along the lines of getting some early multi-platforms released and using those in benchmarks to try and get a software optimization advantage.
> The best Nvidia can do is create a really big ARM or MIPS CPU. I don't see Nvidia worrying too much about this now, not when they've gutted GPGPU from Kepler in the name of power consumption. Nvidia seems to be stepping away from GPGPU and AMD seems to be embracing it.
> 
> I just wonder how long these generations are going to last. We're going to have a tweaked Tahiti going against rebranded and clock bumped Keplers (kind of like FX Centurions). It's more than likely not going to be a good time for Nvidia.
> 
> If GK110 is about 550mm^2 and AMD can sit between GTX 780 and Titan in performance while having a die size less than 400mm^2, Nvidia is going to get absolutely mauled in price to performance. There simply won't be any way for Nvidia to compete, at all. Tahiti is 365mm^2.
> 
> AMD has a huge chance to dominate if the 9970 GPU is under 450mm^2. I'd imagine 9970 falling between GTX 780 and Titan like everyone is suggesting, but based on die size I'd expect it to fall between GTX 770 and GTX 780 in pricing, leaning more towards GTX 770 pricing as AMD wants more market share instead of profits (at least judging their past behaviors).
> 
> AMD just needs to get their CPUs in order now to stop the embarrassment of their graphic products running better on their competitors CPUs as opposed to AMD CPUs.


The problem is single core optimization, not their CPU's, that will all change when the 8 core optimized games start coming.


----------



## $ilent

Anyone got any rough ideas how much the 9970 is gonna cost? Im hoping its around £350 mark, but knowing my luck it will probably just be like £600 to price it just above the 780 if it performs bit better than it.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Anyone got any rough ideas how much the 9970 is gonna cost? Im hoping its around £350 mark, but knowing my luck it will probably just be like £600 to price it just above the 780 if it performs bit better than it.


It will be cheaper than an Classified 780 is it performs on par with it.
I think 500 pounds max or 600 euro max likely to be lower.


----------



## $ilent

£500 is too much for an AMD gpu. The only way they can price thier gpus at or above 500 pounds is if its dual gpu like the 7990.

All thier other gpus have been like 300/400 max for reference ones.


----------



## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> £500 is too much for an AMD gpu. The only way they can price thier gpus at or above 500 pounds is if its dual gpu like the 7990.
> 
> All thier other gpus have been like 300/400 max for reference ones.


I am having a hard time telling if you are serious.


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artikbot*
> 
> I am having a hard time telling if you are serious.


On OCUK Aside from the 7990, all other AMD gpus are priced at £400 or below.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> On OCUK Aside from the 7990, all other AMD gpus are priced at £400 or below.


Yeah but if this has performance above a Titan even if it is AMD it will be priced just below a 780.


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Yeah but if this has performance above a Titan even if it is AMD it will be priced just below a 780.


Hmm I guess we will have to wait and see. Normally AMD cads are good performing but considerably cheaper than Nvidia, like the 7970. I was hoping the 9970 is the same.


----------



## Desolator2B

I already want one, and they haven't even released the specs


----------



## Goku SysOP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Desolator2B*
> 
> I already want one, and they haven't even released the specs


me too, I am definitely getting one, even before I see the reviews, but I am kinda disappointed in amd's gpu company right now as they fell so far behind due to apu and console development, they had to skip sea islands because of it


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3*
> 
> I dont like paying a ton of money on GPUs especially since as of right now I am not having any real performance issues with my 7950 but if the price is right I MAY upgrade but I dont believe the 9970 will be reasonably priced. $500+ for a GPU for my own personal tastes is just not reasonable


I concur but then again even if AMD beats the Titan they might still come "cheap" I promised to myself that after Fermi I shall not buy Nvidia cards untill they come unlocked in both voltage control as in software as in compute(ungimped not unlocked).


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> I concur but then again even if AMD beats the Titan they might still come "cheap" I promised to myself that after Fermi I shall not buy Nvidia cards untill they come unlocked in both voltage control as in software as in compute(ungimped not unlocked).


Don't hold your breath waiting. As long as sales continue as they are nothing is going change on Nvidia's side of things.

I wish this card was coming before October. Anticipation over this card grows with each passing day.


----------



## Desolator2B

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Goku SysOP*
> 
> me too, I am definitely getting one, even before I see the reviews, but I am kinda disappointed in amd's gpu company right now as they fell so far behind due to apu and console development, they had to skip sea islands because of it


That's true, however, I think it is a bit smart that they did wait till the new Nvidia cards came out, just so they know what they're up against, it's really just a marketing trick honestly.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Desolator2B*
> 
> That's true, however, I think it is a bit smart that they did wait till the new Nvidia cards came out, just so they know what they're up against, it's really just a marketing trick honestly.


Everything except segmentation and price point are already determend Oland is going to be beastly.


----------



## erocker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> £500 is too much for an AMD gpu. The only way they can price thier gpus at or above 500 pounds is if its dual gpu like the 7990.
> 
> All thier other gpus have been like 300/400 max for reference ones.


7970 was released at $550.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erocker*
> 
> 7970 was released at $550.


pound =/= dollar


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erocker*
> 
> 7970 was released at $550.


£500 is like $800 or more.


----------



## fateswarm

$800 is already niche. IMO if they don't go sub-$600 they are not getting a reasonable profit. I suspect GK110 and especially Titan mainly serves as a marketing item, rather than a gross income product.

Of course higher valued items X their number will mean higher profit but there is a point that after it the market simply does not respond with reasonable numbers to make a difference.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> $800 is already niche. IMO if they don't go sub-$600 they are not getting a reasonable profit. I suspect GK110 and especially Titan mainly serves as a marketing item, rather than a gross income product.
> 
> Of course higher valued items X their number will mean higher profit but there is a point that after it the market simply does not respond with reasonable numbers to make a difference.


You know that Europe and Australia always get the high prices (I also count those that don't use the Euro to Europe like Norway and Great Britain)
However AMD cards come rather cheap 800 dollar would be niche even here.


----------



## ChaosAD

Although we all want to buy a cheap top performer, i guess it wont happen. If 9970 perform better than the 780/titan, even at something like 5%, i dont see why AMD would price it any lower. You clearly forgot the 500+ euros for a reference 7970 when released. AMD will try to profit as much as possible just like nvidia did with the titans.


----------



## fateswarm

My perception of pricing is also strategic, rather than being only about the available budget. e.g. I may have 1000 for a card, but I won't give more than 400, simply because the main system CPU, RAM and motherboard barely costed more and that means the risk of that card failing is enormous compared to the rest of the system. So, in a general framework of pricing per component it just seems not worth it and a high risk. Also, the reality of the technology of the industry is not that glamorous: Boards for graphics are often reckless in quality of components compared to the main system boards and TSMC is at least 2 years behind Intel so it's like squeezing performance out of old news.

I know a lot of people here go for the highest end no matter what and on the opposite direction there are a lot of reckless people that get a $150 card that fails to do its job, but there is a point and that is around $500, that getting a card simply sounds high risk and not worth it.


----------



## armartins

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> I came from 7970s CF to a 780 (2nd one coming soon) so its not the performance (nor the stutter since I didn't face it much).
> 
> Its reading about it and waiting for the official specs, then the leaked benchmarks/photos, then the official benchmarks, by then I'll be hooked.
> 
> That's what happened when the Titan was released, but I couldn't afford it, so once the 780 came out I got it, even though I really didn't need it at all....
> 
> So knowing myself, if the 9970 beats a 780, I'll need to get it, even though I'll probably have two 780s by then...........can't really explain why.


Love the sincerity. The first step is recognizing. Lol.


----------



## mark_thaddeus

I'm ready . . .



BRING IT!!!


----------



## BBEG

I maintain that if the 9970 beats out the 780 and/or trades blows with Titan, someone is going to get an awesome deal on two 680s with waterblocks.


----------



## $ilent

Whats an awesome deal?









I need a gpu for 1440p, Im fearful that 2gb wont cut it.


----------



## Lee Patekar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3*
> 
> Everyone has there own opinion but for myself my Gaming RIG is my life. Besides my 2 daughters and wife that is. If I did not have my Gaming Rig I would seriously go nuts. If my house is burning you will see my 2 girls in my left arms and my RIG in my right arm. Everything else can go


.... the wife?


----------



## Sir Amik Vase

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lee Patekar*
> 
> .... the wife?


Who needs the wife when you have games?


----------



## CynicalUnicorn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Lee Patekar*
> 
> .... the wife?
> 
> 
> 
> Who needs the wife when you have games?
Click to expand...

Casuals.

Borderline off-topic question for those who have been in this hobby longer than me: how long did the 6000 series stay readily available after the 7000 series came out?


----------



## Opcode

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lee Patekar*
> 
> .... the wife?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> Who needs the wife when you have games?


Besides, she's got two legs of her own that aren't broken.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CynicalUnicorn*
> 
> Casuals.
> 
> Borderline off-topic question for those who have been in this hobby longer than me: how long did the 6000 series stay readily available after the 7000 series came out?


Till suplies run out 1 year mostly longer for some brands or until shops no longer feel like selling them.
Second hand you can pretty much always get them


----------



## Purger

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3*
> 
> Everyone has there own opinion but for myself my Gaming RIG is my life. Besides my 2 daughters and wife that is. If I did not have my Gaming Rig I would seriously go nuts. If my house is burning you will see my 2 girls in my left arms and my RIG in my right arm. Everything else can go


Take heart, I've heard his type of argument before. What people who say this fail to realize is that most hobbies in general could be considered a waste of money. Cases where that comes true are few and far between. In fact, if you start making money, is it really a hobby anymore?

I mean, I didn't feel bad dropping $400 on my 7970. When I started to, I remembered how much I use to spend on car parts. But I've gotten away from that. All things consider, my love of gaming and PCs costs me far less.


----------



## NitroBenzene

My best friend and favourite hobby is my right hand named Jill









I lover her (Jill) more than my computer


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NitroBenzene*
> 
> My best friend and favourite hobby is my right hand named Jill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I lover her (Jill) more than my computer


----------



## DoktorCreepy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*


Lol awkward moments are awesome especially when followed with a high five for no reason; might want to wear some gloves for this high five though.


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DoktorCreepy*
> 
> Lol awkward moments are awesome especially when followed with a high five for no reason; might want to wear some gloves for this high five though.


For real. And have hand sanitizer ready!


----------



## dogbiscuit

Is there any game that a 5xxx series card cannot play ? Only real advantage I can see on these things is inproved power use.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dogbiscuit*
> 
> Is there any game that a 5xxx series card cannot play ? Only real advantage I can see on these things is inproved power use.


????????? my 7970 can't run crysis 3 maxed out at 1080p. what do you even mean with this? I had a 5750 and it couldn't run witcher 2 and had to upgrade to a CF of 6850s.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Whats an awesome deal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need a gpu for 1440p, Im fearful that 2gb wont cut it.


Nope, go for a minimum of 3gb.


----------



## Opcode

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> ????????? my 7970 can't run crysis 3 maxed out at 1080p. what do you even mean with this? I had a 5750 and it couldn't run witcher 2 and had to upgrade to a CF of 6850s.


I think he means there isn't any games that the HD 5000 series still cant run. For example my HD 5870 can still run almost any game on the market on at least high settings (yes even Crysis 3 @ very high @ 1080p).


----------



## kaosstar

A 5970 will blow away a 7970 in DX9 & 10 games. The 7970 will only be clearly better in heavily tesselated DX11 games.


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaosstar*
> 
> A 5970 will blow away a 7970 in DX9 & 10 games. The 7970 will only be clearly better in heavily tesselated DX11 games.


I think you should check into that because my HD 7970 is more then 2 x faster then a HD 5850 @ 950/1200 is is faster then the Core of HD 5970. HD 7970 GHz is now faster then HD 6990.


----------



## Nonehxc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> I think you should check into that because my HD 7970 is more then 2 x faster then a HD 5850 @ 950/1200 is is faster then the Core of HD 5970. HD 7970 GHz is now faster then HD 6990.


5970 is a dual GPU card. It's probably surpassed by now after all the good drivers we've been receiving this 8 past months, but I remember seeing benchmarks where the 5970 was better than the 7970.


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dogbiscuit*
> 
> Is there any game that a 5xxx series card cannot play ? Only real advantage I can see on these things is inproved power use.


Nope... not that I know of... I run Skyrim at High settings and 2x AA on 1GB 5870 just fine. If you go nuts with trying to get it push the max on all the eye-candy it will lag a bit from time to time... but I'm certainly not complaining about an almost 4 year old GPU running a very visually lush game with a MASSIVE environment as smoothly as it does.


----------



## Mombasa69

You have a good point my two and a half year old 570's (3 way sli) can chomp through anything in max settings (1080p) I still see no point in upgrading atm.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kaosstar*
> 
> A 5970 will blow away a 7970 in DX9 & 10 games. The 7970 will only be clearly better in heavily tesselated DX11 games.


Please, stop saying nonsense.

http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-7970-vs-Radeon-HD-5970

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?284345-Review-HD-5970-vs-HD7970-(Tests-Inside)

In DX 9-10 titles it may score a bit higher, but it isn't actually an asset when 90% of latest games are DX11 ready.
Besides, why would you even compare a dual GPU against a single GPU. It is NOT comparable.


----------



## paulerxx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dogbiscuit*
> 
> Is there any game that a 5xxx series card cannot play ? Only real advantage I can see on these things is inproved power use.


imo not really, I had a 5770 and recently upgraded to a HD 7870. Not as a dramatic difference as I thought. I am gaming at 1680x1050 though.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paulerxx*
> 
> imo not really, I had a 5770 and recently upgraded to a HD 7870. Not as a dramatic difference as I thought. I am gaming at 1680x1050 though.


Lower resolution, more CPU bound.


----------



## Nonehxc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Lower resolution, more CPU bound.


Agreed. Up that res and crank up all those visual options. Don't expect miracles but if you have a good 7870, 90% of games out there should be playable at +30-40fps.


----------



## hyp36rmax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just a nickname*
> 
> Until you find something in witch you think your money will have a better use, you will keep wasting it on computer parts. I am a student, I live with my parents so I could easily afford the best and latest. Even though I spent nearly a year checking price and news of video card, I couldn't justify spending that much for a new card (I sold the 300$ 7970 I had).
> 
> *Computer and video game are both a waste of money and time. It's fun but it is really not worth it IMO.*


Smartest phrase in this whole thread!


----------



## B NEGATIVE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Whats an awesome deal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need a gpu for 1440p, Im fearful that 2gb wont cut it.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, go for a minimum of 3gb.
Click to expand...

Not true.

I run 3 670s at 1440p with zero issues,1440p requires much less ,if any,AA.


----------



## NitroBenzene

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *B NEGATIVE*
> 
> Not true.
> 
> I run 3 670s at 1440p with zero issues,1440p requires much less ,if any,AA.


You need at least 3gb for BF4 going by the alpha benchmarks


----------



## ladcrooks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> Who needs the wife when you have games?


But some of the best games are played late in the night


----------



## Pip Boy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ladcrooks*
> 
> But some of the best games are played late in the night


depends on the other players ability


----------



## rpsgc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ladcrooks*
> 
> But some of the best games are played late in the night


Late in the night? Pff, pros do it in the afternoon, and by do it I mean "game"


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *B NEGATIVE*
> 
> 1440p requires much less ,if any,AA.


What are you on about? Before 8K or even 16K, 24'' monitors will show aliasing for regular uses.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *B NEGATIVE*
> 
> Not true.
> 
> I run 3 670s at 1440p with zero issues,1440p requires much less ,if any,AA.


So you would seriously recommend someone that is going to buy a new setup, a vga with 2gb of ram? ever heard of future proofing? And the fact that you don't use much AA is not enough excuse, others might wabt to use it. there are games like crysis 3 that almost eat 2gb of Vram for breakfast with max settings.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-7970-vs-Radeon-HD-5970


Extremely bad source of people that don't even understand how crossfire or SLI works hence I think they don't even understand the terms they throw around.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?284345-Review-HD-5970-vs-HD7970-(Tests-Inside)


Good source


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> What are you on about? Before 8K or even 16K, 24'' monitors will show aliasing for regular uses.


Aliasing is determend more by amount of pixels than by monitor size really increase the pixel density will only make them appear smaller but won't deal with them.


----------



## B NEGATIVE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *B NEGATIVE*
> 
> 1440p requires much less ,if any,AA.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you on about? Before 8K or even 16K, 24'' monitors will show aliasing for regular uses.
Click to expand...

Quite simple really. I have a 1440p monitor and I can tell no difference after x4 AA.

So you can sit there all day long and tell me different but Im already doing it. 1440p pixels are so tiny AA isnt a necessary thing.

I love how people argue how 1440p should be run when they dont have a 1440p monitor or,in the most part,cards that struggle with 1080p.......


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *B NEGATIVE*
> 
> I can tell no difference after x4 AA.


That's off topic. 4x is quite noticeable AA even on lower resolution.

In the meantime, until 8K for regular distances from a 24'' or even 16K if one does detailing work, we will need 'targeted blurring' (i.e. antialiasing).


----------



## NitroBenzene

I have 1440p and I see no difference between no AA and 16x AA.

1440p needs no AA. 27inch 1080p look better and need less aa


----------



## Kinaesthetic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *B NEGATIVE*
> 
> Quite simple really. I have a 1440p monitor and I can tell no difference after x4 AA.
> 
> So you can sit there all day long and tell me different but Im already doing it. 1440p pixels are so tiny AA isnt a necessary thing.
> 
> I love how people argue how 1440p should be run when they dont have a 1440p monitor or,in the most part,cards that struggle with 1080p.......


Pretty much this. My monitor has one dead pixel in the top right. I have to put my eyes around 3 inches away from it on a full white background to even think about noticing it. Its so unimaginably tiny that you can't even see it sitting 3 feet away from the monitor.

Heck, in Crysis 3, the max you honestly need (unless you are extremely anal about it) is honestly FXAA. There are such little returns @ 1440p/1600p with turning AA any higher than FXAA that it isn't even worth it. One bit. And this is coming from someone with 20/15 vision (ridiculously good).


----------



## NitroBenzene

Where are the benchmarks?


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NitroBenzene*
> 
> 1440p needs no AA.


Sorry, but you either don't know what aliasing is, or your eyesight is bad or you don't talk about computer monitor distances.


----------



## B NEGATIVE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *NitroBenzene*
> 
> 1440p needs no AA.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you either don't know what aliasing is, or your eyesight is bad or you don't talk about computer monitor distances.
Click to expand...

Look,you have had 3 people now telling you different. Perhaps it is you that doesnt know what AA is?

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/29084-1080p-8x-aa-1440p-no-aa/

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2110388

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1665953

Just google it.....its not hard. Or buy a 1440p monitor and test for yourself...but wait...your card struggles with 1080p.....


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *B NEGATIVE*
> 
> Look,you have had 3 people now telling you different. Perhaps it is you that doesnt know what AA is?


Before insulting people go learn the basics. It has been repeatedly proven that for regular distances a regular 24'' monitor will need at least 8K to avoid aliasing.

Perhaps your are confusing it due to some people raving about how it is useless for TV + Movies. I'm not talking about Home Theaters, but monitors.


----------



## B NEGATIVE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *B NEGATIVE*
> 
> Look,you have had 3 people now telling you different. Perhaps it is you that doesnt know what AA is?
> 
> 
> 
> Before insulting people go learn the basics. It has been repeatedly proven that for regular distances a regular 24'' monitor will need at least 8K to avoid aliasing.
> 
> Perhaps your are confusing it due to some people raving about how it is useless for TV + Movies. I'm not talking about Home Theaters, but monitors.
Click to expand...

Insulting people? You have done nothing but claim that people THAT HAVE 1440p MONITORS are lying...27" is the smallest 1440p monitor btw
You obviously dont know what you are talking about....


----------



## thestache

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Before insulting people go learn the basics. It has been repeatedly proven that for regular distances a regular 24'' monitor will need at least 8K to avoid aliasing.
> 
> Perhaps your are confusing it due to some people raving about how it is useless for TV + Movies. I'm not talking about Home Theaters, but monitors.


Lol. 8K on a 24inch monitor to no longer require AA? Lol.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thestache*
> 
> Lol. 8K on a 24inch monitor to no longer require AA?


I'm done trying to educate those people. Be wrong, I don't care.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Before insulting people go learn the basics. It has been repeatedly proven that for regular distances a regular 24'' monitor will need at least 8K to avoid aliasing.
> 
> Perhaps your are confusing it due to some people raving about how it is useless for TV + Movies. I'm not talking about Home Theaters, but monitors.


That is to make aliasing so small that you can no longer distinctly see it.
But actually it is pixel count that matters over pixel density.

Now I explained how it works I must say on my 3840x2160 reso I sometimes if it is a old game put some AA on it to make in nicer (also while playing ps2 games looks so dam good so sharp/crisp)
But on newer titles I rarely touch it as the performance hit would be too big and I prefer game play over slight(very slightly) better graphics.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *paulerxx*
> 
> imo not really, I had a 5770 and recently upgraded to a HD 7870. Not as a dramatic difference as I thought. I am gaming at 1680x1050 though.


i went from 5750 to 660ftw @1080 and the difference was 90-100% more fps and with fxaa it was unbelievable

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nonehxc*
> 
> Agreed. Up that res and crank up all those visual options. Don't expect miracles but if you have a good 7870, 90% of games out there should be playable at +30-40fps.


i can attest it









best
revro


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> i went from 5750 to 660ftw @1080 and the difference was 90-100% more fps and with fxaa it was unbelievable
> 
> best
> revro


Out of curiosity, was that the 2 or 3GB 660TFW? I'm looking for a stop gap, minor upgrade from my 1GB 5870 to hold me over until next Spring when I do my next build.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> Out of curiosity, was that the 2 or 3GB 660TFW? I'm looking for a stop gap, minor upgrade from my 1GB 5870 to hold me over until next Spring when I do my next build.


Either 2 or 4 GB right?
either way you wont have anything extra out of that extra ram since the bus width is too low to make much use of it better get a hd7950 -70 or if you have cash which I doubt since the 660 is a mid card you could get a gtx780


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Either 2 or 4 GB right?
> either way you wont have anything extra out of that extra ram since the bus width is too low to make much use of it better get a hd7950 -70 or if you have cash which I doubt since the 660 is a mid card you could get a gtx780


No, the GTX 660 FTW editions are only in 2 or 3 GB. Like I said, the performance from my 5870 is falling behind enough that I'd like an small upgrade in GPU along with adding a decent 120 GB SSD boot drive to hold me over for another nine months. The upgrades would be staying with my current rig and being passed along and/or sold cheap to someone who desperately needs an upgrade, so I want it to be a modest step up, but preferably going no more than about $225-$250 for the GPU.


----------



## Kinaesthetic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> No, the GTX 660 FTW editions are only in 2 or 3 GB. Like I said, the performance from my 5870 is falling behind enough that I'd like an small upgrade in GPU along with adding a decent 120 GB SSD boot drive to hold me over for another nine months. The upgrades would be staying with my current rig and being passed along and/or sold cheap to someone who desperately needs an upgrade, so I want it to be a modest step up, but preferably going no more than about $225-$250 for the GPU.


Then look for either the GTX 760 or an HD 7950 on sale (with a good cooling solution). Both would fall in that price range and offer you pretty damn solid performance that will hold you over for the next 9 months.

And both are going to be quite large upgrades over what you currently have.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> No, the GTX 660 FTW editions are only in 2 or 3 GB. Like I said, the performance from my 5870 is falling behind enough that I'd like an small upgrade in GPU along with adding a decent 120 GB SSD boot drive to hold me over for another nine months. The upgrades would be staying with my current rig and being passed along and/or sold cheap to someone who desperately needs an upgrade, so I want it to be a modest step up, but preferably going no more than about $225-$250 for the GPU.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125466

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202025

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131478

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121656


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kinaesthetic*
> 
> Then look for either the GTX 760 or an HD 7950 on sale (with a good cooling solution). Both would fall in that price range and offer you pretty damn solid performance that will hold you over for the next 9 months.
> 
> And both are going to be quite large upgrades over what you currently have.


Just looked at 760s... I think I'll wait to see when I can catch a decent sale and get one of the 4GB editions for around $250 if I can... according to the benchs I've looked at that seems it will be about 2 or 3 times better than the 5870 at just about everything except for folding...


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> Just looked at 760s... I think I'll wait to see when I can catch a decent sale and get one of the 4GB editions for around $250 if I can... just having four times the RAM on board the GPU should be an insane difference in performance, not to mention it will probably operate a fair bit quieter...


That's why i'd go for the 7950 with 3gb. Almost for the same price as the 760 2gb ed and a bit more future proof in the Vram aspect.

To give you an idea of the performance difference:

http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-7950-vs-GeForce-GTX-760


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> Just looked at 760s... I think I'll wait to see when I can catch a decent sale and get one of the 4GB editions for around $250 if I can... according to the benchs I've looked at that seems it will be about 2 or 3 times better than the 5870 at just about everything except for folding...


I just told you that it cant make good use of its extra ram due to the lacking bus width

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> That's why i'd go for the 7950 with 3gb. Almost for the same price as the 760 2gb ed and a bit more future proof in the Vram aspect.
> 
> To give you an idea of the performance difference:
> 
> http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-7950-vs-GeForce-GTX-760


I agree that the 7950 is superior in every way to the 760 especially when overclocked it can do everything instead of gaming only.
But please stop using Gpuboss.com for comparing it takes SLI/CF and adds resources together a site that does that forfeits all creditability.
A simple graph or a link to a decent review side will do.


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> That's why i'd go for the 7950 with 3gb. Almost for the same price as the 760 2gb ed and a bit more future proof in the Vram aspect.
> 
> To give you an idea of the performance difference:
> 
> http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-7950-vs-GeForce-GTX-760


But to be honest, running an FX-8120, I don't really do any folding on this rig, I'm looking at getting back into that with the new tower I'll be building in the Spring, possibly sooner depending on how the money situation goes... Paying tuition on a $9/hr job can be an unrelenting hindrance on spending money on my toys, lol. Sometimes I do miss the wanton irresponsibility I could get away with as a child... but don't we all?


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> But please stop using Gpuboss.com for comparing it takes SLI/CF and adds resources together a site that does that forfeits all creditability.
> A simple graph or a link to a decent review side will do.


Sir! Yes, sir !


----------



## dogbiscuit

Ah, but I didn't say on max settings.

But anyway Crysis 3 1080p HD5850




That's playable, I would say, at decent settings, but anything less than a 5850/30 would be no good. I can't see a 5770 handling that.


----------



## RemagCP

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Please, stop saying nonsense.
> 
> http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-7970-vs-Radeon-HD-5970
> 
> http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?284345-Review-HD-5970-vs-HD7970-(Tests-Inside)
> 
> In DX 9-10 titles it may score a bit higher, but it isn't actually an asset when 90% of latest games are DX11 ready.
> Besides, why would you even compare a dual GPU against a single GPU. It is NOT comparable.


Those benchies are with 12.11 drivers, there is a huuuuge increase with even the last few 13.x drivers.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> Out of curiosity, was that the 2 or 3GB 660TFW? I'm looking for a stop gap, minor upgrade from my 1GB 5870 to hold me over until next Spring when I do my next build.


3gb but the memory controller was leading to stuttering when i crossed 2.5gb vram usage in heavilly modded skyrim, in other games it got me 30-40fps with fxaa or 2msaa. right now i am having 780 and it just works
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Either 2 or 4 GB right?
> either way you wont have anything extra out of that extra ram since the bus width is too low to make much use of it better get a hd7950 -70 or if you have cash which I doubt since the 660 is a mid card you could get a gtx780


yep the bus width was a limitation and i did get 780, it gives you 50-60fps @1440p ultra with 2xmsaa or fxaa in 90% of games aside crysis3/metro ll

9970 will be interesting but i went with 780 as amd really doesnt want us customers. they could have said we will come out in 2 months wait, it will have sense, but they are just silent. so what are we to wait for 2-6 months till they allow us peons to give them money ...

best
revro


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> I agree that the 7950 is superior in every way to the 760 especially when overclocked it can do everything instead of gaming only.


yeah. a sapphire HD 7950 for USD 261 (241 after mail in rebate) is the best buy for someone looking to spend around USD 250.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202026
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpacemanSpliff*
> 
> The upgrades would be staying with my current rig and being passed along and/or sold cheap to someone who desperately needs an upgrade, so I want it to be a modest step up, but preferably going no more than about $225-$250 for the GPU.


try to maximize the perf improvement around your budget. the HD 7950 is undeniably the best bang for buck card. at average overclocks of 1100 - 1150 mhz it matches HD 7970 Ghz performance and beats any GTX 760 even at 1.3 ghz.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/07/02/msi_n760_tf_2gd5oc_gtx_760_overclocking_review/5


----------



## kaosstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Please, stop saying nonsense.
> 
> http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-7970-vs-Radeon-HD-5970
> 
> http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?284345-Review-HD-5970-vs-HD7970-(Tests-Inside)
> 
> In DX 9-10 titles it may score a bit higher, but it isn't actually an asset when 90% of latest games are DX11 ready.
> Besides, why would you even compare a dual GPU against a single GPU. It is NOT comparable.


90% of the latest games also support DX9 or DX10, which are going to be just as good for most people as DX11.

The cards are comparable because they occupy the same slot in their respective lineups, occupied a similar price bracket, and were targeting the same enthusiasts. Multiple GPUs aren't so bad anymore, especially with the recent driver upgrades.


----------



## kapulek

HWiNFO v4.22 reveals new codenames:

- Added AMD Volcanic Islands/Crystal: Maui, Iceland/Topaz, Tonga/Amethyst.
- Added AMD Pirate Islands: Bermuda, Fiji, Treasure.

So far we have for VI/C Hawaii, Vesuvius, Maui, Iceland/Topaz, Tonga/Amethyst.

Tahiti -> Hawaii
Pitcairn -> Iceland

As for Cape Verde successor I'm guessing it's Tonga.


----------



## Vesku

5 Volcanic Islands codenames, Hawaii might be edging into GK110 die size territory.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vesku*
> 
> 5 Volcanic Islands codenames, Hawaii might be edging into GK110 die size territory.


then it will be a 300W+ chip. then again, there are a lot of bitcoin farmers using other peoples electricity, like dorms

best
revro


----------



## iamhollywood5

Whats the latest on the process size? Looking like 20nm or 28nm?


----------



## benfica101

Still holding out with my HD6990, should be good for another 1-2 years before upgrading


----------



## Seronx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> Whats the latest on the process size? Looking like 20nm or 28nm?


20-nm LPM from TSMC and GlobalFoundries.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seronx*
> 
> 20-nm LPM from TSMC and GlobalFoundries.


No.... these are 28nm, not 20.


----------



## TrevBlu19

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> No.... these are 28nm, not 20.


According to Fudzilla, Guru3D. and GPUBoss,, they are saying 20nm :\

Also, Volcanic Islands was designed with 20nm in mind.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> then it will be a 300W+ chip. then again, there are a lot of bitcoin farmers using other peoples electricity, like dorms
> 
> best
> revro


You clearly don't know what you're talking about or aren't up to speed either way here is my opinion:
They can limit/reduce the TDP by either improving the IPC or by gimping compute performance over gaming performance.

Nobody farms bitcoins with gpu's since it isn't profitable enough and a dumb choice even when using someone else's power.
Other crypto currencies however based on scrypt or a modified version of scrypt might be worth mining


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> Whats the latest on the process size? Looking like 20nm or 28nm?


Globalfoundries seems to be having 20nm ready somehow which is mind boggling since they used to screw AMD over with slow transitions.
It would be pretty amazing if they were to use nice 20nm SOI


----------



## raghu78

TSMC 28nm is the most logical and realistic possibility for HD 9970. TSMC 20nm is not ready till mid 2014. as for globalfoundires well they can't even get 28nm high performance process working at good yields


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> You clearly don't know what you're talking about or aren't up to speed either way here is my opinion:
> They can limit/reduce the TDP by either improving the IPC or by gimping compute performance over gaming performance.
> 
> Nobody farms bitcoins with gpu's since it isn't profitable enough and a dumb choice even when using someone else's power.
> Other crypto currencies however based on scrypt or a modified version of scrypt might be worth mining


they can but when, on saint dindy? he is brother of godot, if you dont know









and yeah i know bitcoin is no longer profitable, but the people i spoke dont care as they have free electricity









best
revro


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> they can but when, on saint dindy? he is brother of godot, if you dont know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and yeah i know bitcoin is no longer profitable, but the people i spoke dont care as they have free electricity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> best
> revro


I wouldn't like reduced compute performance but any reduction in power consumption is welcome as long as it doesn't cost performance.
Let's start with a reference design like the 7990 which was quite efficient or have Asus make one of those cards they are good at consumption reduction.


----------



## TrevBlu19

Since TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company) will start making 20nm chips in the fourth quarter (Q4 2013), one or more of the chips (Hawaii, Maui and Tonga) will appear around the same time.

Source: Softpedia

The Volcanic Islands series is a family of GPUs developed by AMD, which will succeed the Sea Islands line. Volcanic Islands (VI) is expected to compete with the Nvidia Maxwell and second-generation Xeon Phi architectures, and is expected to be released in October, beginning of Q4 2013.[1][2] The new VI GPUs would be manufactured on a 20 nm Gate-Last process through either TSMC or Common Platform Alliance.[3]

Source: Wikipedia
Source: Guru3d

AMD is expected to debut its first "Volcanic Islands" GPUs in Q4-2013, when foundry partner TSMC's swanky new 20 nm node is expected to take flight.

Source: Techpowerup
Source: Fudzilla

Too many conflicting reports, someone needs to say something.


----------



## Seronx

20-nm LPM at GlobalFoundries is also ramping up by Q4 2013. That is why I said GlobalFoundries and TSMC.

If we are talking about GlobalFoundries, if they cancelled 28-nm, we would have seen chips on 20-nm anytime after Q3 2012. GlobalFoundries was the first to show us 20-nm Planar and 20-nm FinFETs while TSMC was second, out of these types of foundries. For the span of time between GlobalFoundries 20-nm and TSMC 20-nm it was a 15 months headstart.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> It would be pretty amazing if they were to use nice 20nm SOI


They actually switched the transition. Normally both foundries TSMC and GlobalFoundries start on the high performance nodes then go to low power nodes. This time they are doing the low power nodes before the high perf nodes.

20-nm LPM(Q4 2013) -> Vddnom: 0.85
20-nm SHP(Q4? 2014?) -> Vddnom: 0.6


----------



## kapulek

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> then it will be a 300W+ chip. then again, there are a lot of bitcoin farmers using other peoples electricity, like dorms
> 
> best
> revro


Hawaii has 6+8pin.


----------



## fateswarm

*Reminder that there is absolutely no confirmation of this rumor by any second source, rumored source or otherwise.*

It seems that several "troll" "sources" blindly reproduce the rumours produced by chinese site VRzone and have absolutely no cross-reference of the "source". (techpowerup appear to be the champions of it).

i.e. most people by now have recycled the illussion that AMD will "definitely have this card by October". *This card/series may not be released until 2014*.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seronx*
> 
> 20-nm LPM at GlobalFoundries is also ramping up by Q4 2013. That is why I said GlobalFoundries and TSMC.
> 
> If we are talking about GlobalFoundries, if they cancelled 28-nm, we would have seen chips on 20-nm anytime after Q3 2012. GlobalFoundries was the first to show us 20-nm Planar and 20-nm FinFETs while TSMC was second, out of these types of foundries. For the span of time between GlobalFoundries 20-nm and TSMC 20-nm it was a 15 months headstart.
> They actually switched the transition. Normally both foundries TSMC and GlobalFoundries start on the high performance nodes then go to low power nodes. This time they are doing the low power nodes before the high perf nodes.
> 
> 20-nm LPM(Q4 2013) -> Vddnom: 0.85
> 20-nm SHP(Q4? 2014?) -> Vddnom: 0.6


Too bad


----------



## iamhollywood5

I'm leaning towards 20nm. It just has to be. Common Platform Alliance apparently also has 20nm ready to go. At least one foundry will be producing 20nm by Q4. The Tahiti life cycle has also been wayyy too long. If AMD wanted to do a 28nm refresh, they would have done it by now. Wouldn't make sense anymore...


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> I'm leaning towards 20nm. It just has to be. Common Platform Alliance apparently also has 20nm ready to go. At least one foundry will be producing 20nm by Q4. The Tahiti life cycle has also been wayyy too long. If AMD wanted to do a 28nm refresh, they would have done it by now. Wouldn't make sense anymore...


someone mentioned that those 20nm are for apple

best
revro


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> I'm leaning towards 20nm. It just has to be. Common Platform Alliance apparently also has 20nm ready to go. At least one foundry will be producing 20nm by Q4. The Tahiti life cycle has also been wayyy too long. If AMD wanted to do a 28nm refresh, they would have done it by now. Wouldn't make sense anymore...


It's absolutely confirmed that 20nm will only be available from early 2014 onwards. There are several sources independently calling production for 20nm (and 14nm btw) starting slowly from late 2013 and only being in mass production in early 2014, TSMC itself has said it will start late this year and will ramp up next year and AMD doesn't give signs it will change foundry.

AMD isn't even one of those being used for marketing for early 20nm. They use ARM (I guess it has the most prestige) to advertise it and even those do not talk for mass production for months.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> *Reminder that there is absolutely no confirmation of this rumor by any second source, rumored source or otherwise.*
> 
> It seems that several "troll" "sources" blindly reproduce the rumours produced by chinese site VRzone and have absolutely no cross-reference of the "source". (techpowerup appear to be the champions of it).
> 
> i.e. most people by now have recycled the illussion that AMD will "definitely have this card by October". *This card/series may not be released until 2014*.


By the way. The current news about *7990's price being slashed to $700* appears to point further towards the direction of what I said there about this rumour being very probably false and 9970 to not see the light of day until 2014.


----------



## Seronx

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/08/07/amd-to-launch-hawaii-in-hawaii/

Charlie says 28-nm and September.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seronx*
> 
> http://semiaccurate.com/2013/08/07/amd-to-launch-hawaii-in-hawaii/
> 
> Charlie says 28-nm and September.


Can someone check if they have any new sources? I'm honestly tired of seeing "new" reports and then researching it and finding out they only rehash the same singular rumour someone posted weeks ago and nobody did the work to cross-reference it like a journalist.


----------



## Flying Toilet

WCCF.

/thread


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Can someone check if they have any new sources? I'm honestly tired of seeing "new" reports and then researching it and finding out they only rehash the same singular rumour someone posted weeks ago and nobody did the work to cross-reference it like a journalist.


sweclockers are saying firepro cards in Sept and consumer cards soon after but before BF4.

And sweclockers is credible considering they've gotten a ton of stuff right before anyone else.


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> By the way. The current news about *7990's price being slashed to $700* appears to point further towards the direction of what I said there about this rumour being very probably false and 9970 to not see the light of day until 2014.


I see it pointing the other way - they are trying to clear inventory of a card that is going to be even more irrelevant once new cards come out.


----------



## CynicalUnicorn

I'm not sure how the tied-for-best $1000 card is irrelevant.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> I'm leaning towards 20nm. It just has to be. Common Platform Alliance apparently also has 20nm ready to go. At least one foundry will be producing 20nm by Q4. The Tahiti life cycle has also been wayyy too long. If AMD wanted to do a 28nm refresh, they would have done it by now. Wouldn't make sense anymore...


Uhm they revised their plans the plan was to skip the refresh all together now we don't know if they picked up on what they would normally do or that they are going to bring out the big guns for once.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> sweclockers are saying firepro cards in Sept and consumer cards soon after but before BF4.
> 
> And sweclockers is credible considering they've gotten a ton of stuff right before anyone else.


They seem to act like they are the original reporters of a source they keep secret. I hope it's not yet another "I strongly suspect it due to my intuition" type of "news" because it honestly gets to my nerves lately: Practically 100s of "sources" re-report on singular roumors about the HD 9000 and Intel 14 nm (in my attention, I don't care about the ton of mobile news) and I would not be surprised at all if this is yet another "we thought it sounded perfectly right".


----------



## iamhollywood5

if AMD decides go stick with 28nm, does anyone think they'd be likely to just increase the die size to fit more than 2560 SPs? Unless they increase die size or go with 20nm I can't see how they'd come up with anything much better than the GTX 780. Releasing a new flagship GPU that only matches the GTX 780 doesn't make much sense at this point in time if 20nm will be a 2014 thing. The 700 series is only a "hold-over" until 20nm is ready for Maxwell, and since that series started 3 months ago. If 20nm isn't available until mid-2014 and AMD wants their own "hold-over" series, it would be a very short-lived series if it started in October or even September...


----------



## fateswarm

*We seem to have confirmation of the Hawaii release announcement event by two independent sources.*

It will take place in *September* and there will be web streaming coverage. The release date of the product itself is not confirmed but it is speculated to be October.


----------



## Vesku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iamhollywood5*
> 
> if AMD decides go stick with 28nm, does anyone think they'd be likely to just increase the die size to fit more than 2560 SPs? Unless they increase die size or go with 20nm I can't see how they'd come up with anything much better than the GTX 780.


If it's 28nm, which does seem to be the most likely scenario, Volcanic Islands will definitely be a bigger die than the 7000 series for each respective category. I'd expect the flagship part to be faster than the 780 and be priced in the $600+-50. I also expect AMD will basically do what Nvidia did with their latest refresh and box in the 700 series by speccing the 2nd highest tier to go head to head with the 780 and be priced ~$100 below flagship.

Radeon 7970 is 365mm2
Nvidia GK110 (780 and Titan) is 561mm2

Adding 30-40% to the die size target for the 7970 replacement would still have it 10-15% smaller than GK110. Similar to the 5000-6000 series same node transition they have to up the die size budget in order to provide expected performance boosts, the maturity of the node means they can do this without increasing retail pricing too drastically.

The 6900 series was a ~15% increase in die size but also involved a hefty tweak to the underlying architecture. Personally, I think Volcanic Islands will weigh in with more of a die increase perhaps not as much as 30-40 but at least in the 20-25 range. I'd expect they will save the heavy performance targeted GCN R&D for 20nm.


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vesku*
> 
> If it's 28nm, which does seem to be the most likely scenario, Volcanic Islands will definitely be a bigger die than the 7000 series for each respective category. I'd expect the flagship part to be faster than the 780 and be priced in the $600+-50. I also expect AMD will basically do what Nvidia did with their latest refresh and box in the 700 series by speccing the 2nd highest tier to go head to head with the 780 and be priced ~$100 below flagship.
> 
> Radeon 7970 is 365mm2
> Nvidia GK110 (780 and Titan) is 561mm2
> 
> Adding 30-40% to the die size target for the 7970 replacement would still have it 10-15% smaller than GK110. Similar to the 5000-6000 series same node transition they have to up the die size budget in order to provide expected performance boosts, the maturity of the node means they can do this without increasing retail pricing too drastically.
> 
> The 6900 series was a ~15% increase in die size but also involved a hefty tweak to the underlying architecture. Personally, I think Volcanic Islands will weigh in with more of a die increase perhaps not as much as 30-40 but at least in the 20-25 range. I'd expect they will save the heavy performance targeted GCN R&D for 20nm.


Good chance that you're probably not far off... but I'd be lying like the Devil himself if there isn't a huge hope in me that they're keeping things under wraps as long as possible just to sucker punch the market with a huge performance gain and the move to the 20nm die size... us computer nuts have to dream big right?


----------



## maneil99

28mm October release, 780 performance for 649$. No way they price it less if its faster then a 780.


----------



## DzillaXx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maneil99*
> 
> 28mm October release, 780 performance for 649$. No way they price it less if its faster then a 780.


They released the hd4870 for lot less then Nvidia was selling the GTX260 for at the time, and it was a slightly faster card at that. Shortly after Nvidia did massive price drops on their GTX260 and 280 cards.
Selling a card cheaper that is faster is a good way to get people to buy your cards.


----------



## 2010rig

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DzillaXx*
> 
> They released the hd4870 for lot less then Nvidia was selling the GTX260 for at the time, and it was a slightly faster card at that. Shortly after Nvidia did massive price drops on their GTX260 and 280 cards.
> Selling a card cheaper that is faster is a good way to get people to buy your cards.


But in recent times, they released the 7970 for $550 when it was faster than the 580. They also originally launched the 7990 between $1000 - $1100.

All I'm saying is, times have changed.


----------



## fateswarm

People do the fundamental mistake being confident that the price of 780 is driven solely by the demand.

The supply is not easy. Those chips cost a lot per wafer and fail like no tomorrow.In fact *the very reason* they exist is probably because of the high failure rate of Titan/Tesla/Quadro GK110s.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> People do the fundamental mistake being confident that the price of 780 is driven solely by the demand.
> 
> The supply is not easy. Those chips fail like no tomorrow.In fact *the very reason* they exist is probably because of the high failure rate of Titan/Tesla/Quadro GK110s.


I'd love to have a source on this. I agree with you though.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> I'd love to have a source on this. I agree with you though.


I don't claim it to be a fact, I claimed that it is silly to be sure that it's certainly only supply and demand, in the 'easy supply and high demand' sense. I claim we do not know if that is a fact, and it is actually quite possible that the supply side is more problematic compared to what some may think.

In fact the whole world has a supply problem nowadays. It is sourced to energy prices. Everything is harder to produce. For those knowing basic physics it is easy to understand: Energy = Work => Products and when Energy is cheap it comes to reason that production is cheaper. Now, if you combine it with basic Economics that Work = Wealth, then you know what high energy prices / scarce energy means to the world and why we had or have a global economic crisis.


----------



## mcg75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DzillaXx*
> 
> They released the hd4870 for lot less then Nvidia was selling the GTX260 for at the time, and it was a slightly faster card at that. Shortly after Nvidia did massive price drops on their GTX260 and 280 cards.
> Selling a card cheaper that is faster is a good way to get people to buy your cards.


Selling a card that's faster for less money is also a good way to make less profit for a company that needs it.


----------



## TheLAWNOOB

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mcg75*
> 
> Selling a card that's faster for less money is also a good way to make less profit for a company that needs it.


Shh, don't give them any ideas !

Don't want AMD to pull another 9590 do you?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> People do the fundamental mistake being confident that the price of 780 is driven solely by the demand.
> 
> The supply is not easy. Those chips cost a lot per wafer and fail like no tomorrow.In fact *the very reason* they exist is probably because of the high failure rate of Titan/Tesla/Quadro GK110s.


A lot of slightly leaky but capable chips end up Titan that being said a lot of Titan spec fitting chips end up 780's because that way they can sell more the die doesn't cost that much after the r&d is done compared to the selling price of the final product.
Even with more expensive waffers there is not reason to sell it beyond 8800 280 480 580 prices.


----------



## pokerapar88

Hey guys I was thinking of doing an upgrade for my VGA, mainly to run BF4 at max setting decently. My idea was to sell my 7970 and get 2 GTX 760 (if I can afford it, the 4gb version) and SLI. The other option was to wait for the 9970 and get that. But I really don't know how good it will perform and how much it will cost. If it beats the titan it will probably be expensive, thus, making the dual 760's a lot more tempting for the price ! What do you guys think? I will have to wait till the 9970 is out though, while I save some cash.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Hey guys I was thinking of doing an upgrade for my VGA, mainly to run BF4 at max setting decently. My idea was to sell my 7970 and get 2 GTX 760 (if I can afford it, the 4gb version) and SLI. The other option was to wait for the 9970 and get that. But I really don't know how good it will perform and how much it will cost. If it beats the titan it will probably be expensive, thus, making the dual 760's a lot more tempting for the price ! What do you guys think? I will have to wait till the 9970 is out though, while I save some cash.


first HD 9970 / HD 9950 are launching in early - mid Oct. press event for Hawaii aka HD 9970 is Sep 25th. 2 -3 weeks from you can expect retail launch. so you might want to wait till then. secondly they are going to bundle BF4 with these cards. thirdly as much as possible stick with a single GPU for the most consistent and smoothest gameplay. HD 9970 seems to be aiming for Titan performance at USD 600. imo wait for HD 9970.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raghu78*
> 
> first HD 9970 / HD 9950 are launching in early - mid Oct. press event for Hawaii aka HD 9970 is Sep 25th. 2 -3 weeks from you can expect retail launch. so you might want to wait till then. secondly they are going to bundle BF4 with these cards. thirdly as much as possible stick with a single GPU for the most consistent and smoothest gameplay. HD 9970 seems to be aiming for Titan performance at USD 600. imo wait for HD 9970.


I will wait for its realease and see what it costs in my country when it arrives here, but I will also see if performance wise it is good or not compared to the 760 SLI, and for the price, of course.


----------



## SkullTrail

Leak some specs already. I'm tired of these rumors.


----------



## Gunderman456

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Hey guys I was thinking of doing an upgrade for my VGA, mainly to run BF4 at max setting decently. My idea was to sell my 7970 and get 2 GTX 760 (if I can afford it, the 4gb version) and SLI. The other option was to wait for the 9970 and get that. But I really don't know how good it will perform and how much it will cost. If it beats the titan it will probably be expensive, thus, making the dual 760's a lot more tempting for the price ! What do you guys think? I will have to wait till the 9970 is out though, while I save some cash.


Having the same concerns you had, yesterday I decided to just go with a 7990 since there was a nice drop in price. AMD has improved drivers with Catalyst 13.8 beta for CF. The 7990 will be faster then the 9970, no matter it's speed relevant to the 780 and the Titan.

In your case, I'd recommend buying another 7970 and CF.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkullTrail*
> 
> Leak some specs already. I'm tired of these rumors.


You will get your specs somewhere next month, leaks usually occur a month or so from actual release that is something we've seen with various releases.


----------



## SkullTrail

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *SkullTrail*
> 
> Leak some specs already. I'm tired of these rumors.
> 
> 
> 
> You will get your specs somewhere next month, leaks usually occur a month or so from actual release that is something we've seen with various releases.
Click to expand...

*squeals like a schoolgirl*


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> Having the same concerns you had, yesterday I decided to just go with a 7990 since there was a nice drop in price. AMD has improved drivers with Catalyst 13.8 beta for CF. The 7990 will be faster then the 9970, no matter it's speed relevant to the 780 and the Titan.
> 
> In your case, I'd recommend buying another 7970 and CF.


Yeah, no. It would be much more expensive and actually not much faster than dual 760s. Besides the 7970 that I have is Voltage locked. I wanna get rid of this piece of crappy PCB. Didn't even think about the 7990 for the temps reported by reviewers. I would go for CF and SLI if I know they run cool. two 760s would run way cooler than 2x 7970s. And I would drain less power from the wall. Still, though i know that drivers have imp0roved a lot since this last beta, I still don't trust dual card solutions with AMD, yet. Had too much troube in the past.


----------



## sausageson

If its at least double the performance of my 6950 I will purchase it.


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sausageson*
> 
> If its at least double the performance of my 6950 I will purchase it.


That should be easy.


----------



## chrisguitar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eXXon*
> 
> I came from 7970s CF to a 780 (2nd one coming soon) so its not the performance (nor the stutter since I didn't face it much).
> 
> Its reading about it and waiting for the official specs, then the leaked benchmarks/photos, then the official benchmarks, by then I'll be hooked.
> 
> That's what happened when the Titan was released, but I couldn't afford it, so once the 780 came out I got it, even though I really didn't need it at all....
> 
> So knowing myself, if the 9970 beats a 780, I'll need to get it, even though I'll probably have two 780s by then...........can't really explain why.


oh man I have that bug too







It's amazing, I love building new computers its wicked!

Buying new components putting it together, uggh.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrisguitar*
> 
> oh man I have that bug too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's amazing, I love building new computers its wicked!
> 
> Buying new components putting it together, uggh.


Wish I had the money to upgrade so much. Besides, in my country, for eg. a Titan costs $1818 USD, so yeah, just imagine.


----------



## chrisguitar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokerapar88*
> 
> Wish I had the money to upgrade so much. Besides, in my country, for eg. a Titan costs $1818 USD, so yeah, just imagine.


dam and I thought Australia had it bad, we pay a little over $1250 for a Titan.


----------



## Abundant Cores

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sausageson*
> 
> If its at least double the performance of my 6950 I will purchase it.


All you need for that is a 7970 GHZ, the 9970 will be getting for 3x as fast as a 6950


----------



## fedrosishere

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alastair*
> 
> I'll take one 8970 or two 8870's!


those gpus exist in laptops. for the desktop it must be 9xxx or something...


----------



## Opcode

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fedrosishere*
> 
> those gpus exist in laptops. for the desktop it must be 9xxx or something...


Potentially what AMD plans on calling them the "R9-D970" and the "R9-D870".


----------



## fedrosishere

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Opcode*
> 
> Potentially what AMD plans on calling them the "R9-D970" and the "R9-D870".


thats a strange name ! heh


----------



## Mombasa69

Still sticking to my 3 way 570 set up, until I see how these new Radeon's perform, I like the sound of the next gen Maxwell out next year as well, I hate this waiting game though.


----------



## ar3f

I'm waiting for the "R2-D2 Death Star" edition


----------



## Nomad692000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NoL*
> 
> I have a Radeon 9800 Pro on my shelf that would like a word with you.


I got a 9500 Pro that I modded. Heck I think I still got a Rage card some where. I don't throw anything a way, drives the G/F crazy


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nomad692000*
> 
> I got a 9500 Pro that I modded. Heck I think I still got a Rage card some where. I don't throw anything a way, drives the G/F crazy


http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/360413/i-kinda-need-that


----------



## Oubadah

..


----------



## random247

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oubadah*
> 
> I've got my 9800XT, but being AGP I have absolutely nothing I can do with it, so it sits in it's box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the mighty have fallen.
> 
> I can't throw it away because of 'sentimental value'.


Frame it and mount it! Unless that's considered tacky


----------



## Abundant Cores

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *random247*
> 
> Frame it and mount it! Unless that's considered tacky


Or make a Keyring out of the DIE.


----------

