# About VRMs & Mosfets / Motherboard Safety with 125W+ TDP processors



## Tw34k

Stick this thread!


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## Chuckclc

Good read, and some excellent info! I can speak first hand that the MSI 790FX-GD70, a 4+1 phase board, will go kaploowi if you push too much voltage through. Having a better time with the Biostar 890FXE.

+1


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## dcyli

<

Locked back my cores a week ago because of a similar post.

Me sad.. since my other 2 cores are completely stable..

Also, for the reason I bought my mobo: I was hunting for the newest chipset + mATX form factor + am3.

Sucks that asus doesn't do much with am3 boards in the mATX world.

I'm really glad I bought this cpu since I can lock down 2 cores.. If I was using a quad I'd be stuck with near-stock settings.


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## xd_1771

Have you considered Biostar's TA890GXE?
Same chipset, similar (better?) features, lower price even. And I've found Biostar VRMs to be overall better.
Just no CrossfireX (But the thought of having two cards next to each other without any space in between [GPU fans...choking... overheating...].... ehhh....)


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## Tw34k

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416162*
> Have you considered Biostar's TA890GXE?


I think I just found my htpc mobo.


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## BPK

Epically helpful.
+1


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## Rocker delMaL

subed!! Great post!


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## Chuckclc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416162*
> Have you considered Biostar's TA890GXE?
> Same chipset, similar (better?) features, lower price even. And I've found Biostar VRMs to be overall better.
> Just no CrossfireX (But the thought of having two cards next to each other without any space in between [GPU fans...choking... overheating...].... ehhh....)


Whoa whoa whoa whoa, wait a minute? I cannot, or should not, crossfire on my 890FXE?


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## xd_1771

I was talking about MSI's 890GXM-G65 there (you can CFX on it but I don't recommend it due to small spacing between most dual slot cards) and TA890GXE not supporting Crossfire
890FXE is completely out of the question there









Now, I have some math homework to do... (maybe writing this wasn't so good an idea







)


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## SinX7

Thanks for this!







Now I know 4+1 ain't worth it!


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## Concorde105

Haha, I remember you telling me that you were slightly worried about my mobo and my processor. And now I know what TMPIN2 is on my mobo! It got to 106C a while back just after I unlocked the fourth core, before I dropped the voltage. Now it maxes out at maybe 80ish C.

I only see 4 chokes on my mobo - does that make it 3+1?


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## xd_1771

Yikes, that's definitely a 3+1 phase there. 106C temp - okay, that's really high! Then again it's not unexpected from high TDP processors on the somewhat weak 3+1 VRMs and near-lack of cooling there. Even though Gigabyte usually features good VRM quality, I never ever recommend 125W on 3+1 phase. That one's not a quality one either actually, looks like it uses the third-transistor design and pretty tightly spaced unheatsinked chokes. That must've been really close


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## Chuckclc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416287*
> I was talking about MSI's 890GXM-G65 there (you can CFX on it but I don't recommend it due to small spacing between most dual slot cards) and TA890GXE not supporting Crossfire
> 890FXE is completely out of the question there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I have some math homework to do... (maybe writing this wasn't so good an idea
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


It has 2 16x lanes put cannot crossfire?


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## Aznboy1993

Good read. Thanks for this. Now I know...I'm going to back out of my X4 unlock back to X2. Getting a new computer totally though on 2/23/11 for my b'day so I guess I won't have to worry about this soon.


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## Concorde105

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416319*
> Yikes, that's definitely a 3+1 phase there. 106C temp - okay, that's really high! Then again it's not unexpected from high TDP processors on the somewhat weak 3+1 VRMs and near-lack of cooling there. Even though Gigabyte usually features good VRM quality, I never ever recommend 125W on 3+1 phase. That one's not a quality one either actually, looks like it uses the third-transistor design and pretty tightly spaced unheatsinked chokes. That must've been really close


Oh man, I'd believe it. But like I said, undervolting dropped temps a lot. It's been running fine 24/7 since then, but the CPU mostly idles. I just GPU fold on it now.


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## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chuckclc;12416335*
> It has 2 16x lanes put cannot crossfire?


No, you're fine, I wasn't even talking about TA890FXE there


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## H-man

Added to my sig.
I had to steer my comp tech teacher away from a msi board and a 125 watt chip.
I got him to get a 95 watt chip and an asus with an 8+2.


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## Chuckclc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416347*
> No, you're fine, I wasn't even talking about TA890FXE there


Oh duh, GXE, sorry. Been a long day.


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## SystemTech

Im so glad i have expensive taste, got my mobo before this was even widly know, but im sitting pretty with my 8+2. I even go extreme now up to 1.8v etc when doing dry ice runs(my cpu-z voltage detection is wrong BTW, its actually at about 1.785v there).


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## un-nefer

As I mentioned to you in the other thread - all those "8+2 phase" mobos use 4+1 VRMs - so in the OP post, you should correct your typing as it misleads those reading into thinking they have 8+2 VRMs, when they still only use 4+1 VRMs.

Those "8+2 phase" mobos still have the exact same amount of actual regulated power phases (4+1), just that each regulated power phase then feeds dual inductors to share the load.

Edit: and before ppl assume that if it has dual inductors sharing the load it must be better, it is not about the amount of inductors, but rather the quality and current rating of the inductors used.

Edit 2: Apart from my comment above, the rest is good information


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## xd_1771

Don't worry, I know about the split channel thing, I've addressed it under "few last notes" at the bottom of the article. It's that way with my own motherboard in fact. But not all 8+2 phase mobos are split channel. I've learned a lot more about VRMs in recent days, so I've also addressed overall quality in this article, recommending Biostar (newer), ASUS, ASRock (newer), Gigabyte or DFI boards.


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## un-nefer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416481*
> Don't worry, I know about the split channel thing, I've addressed it under "few last notes" at the bottom of the article. It's that way with my own motherboard in fact.


it's just the way your OP continually mentions "VRM" and "phase" with 8+2 or 4+1 that is misleading - as I have mentioned, and as I am sure you know, if there VRM is only 4+1, then there is only 4+1 power phases, regardless of how they channel the regulated phases after the fact








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416481*
> But not all 8+2 phase mobos are split channel.


Believe me, I have been looking, and I am yet to find an AMD mobo with a true 8+2 VRM. If you know of one, post it - otherwise my comment above still stands and your OP is misleading and only spreading the marketing bs of mobo manufacturers.


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## SystemTech

Quote:


> I am yet to find an AMD mobo with a true 8+2 VRM


So i am then guessing even yours is 4.1 x 2.
ie same as mine seeing that are almost identical boards except for few feature either way.


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## xd_1771

I tend to keep things simple. Since quality would be pretty similar anyway otherwise I just mention 8+2. No need to get members all stirred up between phases here and have them end up potentially going to the crummy parts.

8+2 phases that are not 4+1 split inductor do exist: i.e. M4A89GTD PRO(/USB3). This is actually more of a 4+4+2 design, but I'd consider it close enough. What it definitely isn't is 4+1 split, the PWM controller sends 8+2 channels.

This post on XS says:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *G.Foyle;3825970*
> Whether it is a blatant lie depends on what does "phase" mean for you. ASUS and Gigabyte seem to think that inductor = phase, but rest of the world knows that "phase" is "one part or portion in recurring or serial activities or occurrences logically connected within a greater process, often resulting in an output or a change." (Wikipedia). Phase is not something that exists on motherboard PCB, it's a parameter of the voltage control process. So for most people, yes, ASUS and Gigabyte and many other manufacturers lie about their PWM designs.


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## tmunn

Nice guide








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12415904*
> - I've been planning to do a write-up like this for while, but I probably made a lot of mistakes writing this... be sure to tell me if so


Not a mistake, but it would be nice if you used bullets instead of the "-". It will be a lot cleaner and easier to read that way


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## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tmunn;12416655*
> Nice guide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a mistake, but it would be nice if you used bullets instead of the "-". It will be a lot cleaner and easier to read that way


You're right, seems a lot more organized now. Thanks!








-xd


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## _Chimera

So I was stupid and have a serious overkill with my 16+2 phase? I'm just asking, don't know If I can eve use that kind of power.

I know this is the AMD forum, just talking about the Mobo.


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## Chuckclc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *_Chimera;12416736*
> So I was stupid and have a serious overkill with my 16+2 phase? I'm just asking, don't know If I can eve use that kind of power.
> 
> I know this is the AMD forum, just talking about the Mobo.


Intels are much different. I dont know if any newer Intel boards even run on as low as 4+1. Dont think many if any do. Plus I dont think you could ever have too much.


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## Problame

Nice guide, sticky it!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416162*
> Have you considered Biostar's TA890GXE?


I've been pleasently supprised with the quality of Biostar boards








Wonder if there is any Matx board equal to or better then this?


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## dcyli

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416162*
> Have you considered Biostar's TA890GXE?
> Same chipset, similar (better?) features, lower price even. And I've found Biostar VRMs to be overall better.
> Just no CrossfireX (But the thought of having two cards next to each other without any space in between [GPU fans...choking... overheating...].... ehhh....)


DDR3 1333.

I went with my current one because it could crossfire + 1600MHz compatible


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## tryagainplss

Please make this thread a sticky.


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## Biscuits_N_Gravy

I still have 4+1. Buy my OC isn't anything insane.


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## Primus

+REP with the force of a Super Saiyan 4 Kamehameha.

Great read. I was, unfortunately, one of those morons trying to overclock on a 4+1 phase boards on my last build. Luckily, I didn't blow the CPU to smithereens. Good thing I found this site







.


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## rocstar96

Does this happen with Intel Sockets with MSI Boards?


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## Problame

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dcyli;12416797*
> DDR3 1333.
> 
> I went with my current one because it could crossfire + 1600MHz compatible


The board does support 1600Mhz (be it OC). Crossfire's the only thing I'm missing really.


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## haziqk10

my msi 790FX GD70 had been sent to rma because of this issue...


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## The Sandman

Another vote to PLEASE STICKY THIS. Nice write up xd


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## SystemTech

i also vote sticky.


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## winginit

Quote:


> http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=181 - Biostar 890GXE/1055T @ 3.8 [4+1 HS] - 21/9/2010


Nice job on the write up, but I have a slight correction for you....







if you read the post carefully, that guy's TA890GXE did NOT blow up.... it was a different board of his that did....


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## Doom

Yep sticky vote.

+ Rep xd.


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## amd-dude

Sticky for sure....I already knew about this cause XD warned me earlier...thanks again XD good complete guide here.also a good reference on what to buy and what to look for when buying...


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## LostRib

Does this mean I shouldnt run an unlocked x3 440 @3.5 on this board? http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=M3A785GXH/128M


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## Problame

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LostRib;12419423*
> Does this mean I shouldnt run an unlocked x3 440 @3.5 on this board? http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=M3A785GXH/128M


This depends on what voltage your CPU/NB is using at those speeds;
I don't think there will be much (if any) difference in Vcore between your current OC and 100mhz lower.
Mosfets provide power for CPU/NB so keep an eye on the voltages rather then the reference clock.


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## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dcyli;12416797*
> DDR3 1333.
> I went with my current one because it could crossfire + 1600MHz compatible


See the other thread I made that's supposed to be stickied







another common OCN misconception I did a shorter write-up about.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Problame;12416789*
> Nice guide, sticky it!
> 
> I've been pleasently supprised with the quality of Biostar boards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder if there is any Matx board equal to or better then this?


None with a similar 890GX chipset (they're all 880G) as far as I'm concerned!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rocstar96;12416864*
> Does this happen with Intel Sockets with MSI Boards?


Intel phases are usually different (and in fact often more numerous)... I think it applies to Intel as well, but with the majority of their CPUs being 95W-130W and not usually above, I don't think it happens too much.

*LostRib*: I'd doubt it, 95W stock TDP, VRMs are a 4+1 unheatsinked... they're pretty cheap looking too. This is an older ASRock mobo. not so much of quality. With a Hyper 212+ and air skipping over everything, I'd be wary if I were you. See if you can figure out the temps; adding a mosfet heatsink may make the situation a bit safer for you.


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## draggy

Great read, thanks xd_1771 +rep


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## youra6

It is also fair to point out that many times, the # of power phases have been often times employed by motherboard manufactures as a gimmick. A good 8 phase board (w/ digital VRAM) can sometimes out perform older boards with lets say, 24 power phases.

Lot of it comes down not to how many power phases a board has, but how well it regulates voltage under load.

My


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## coonmanx

It's good to know that Biostar is getting some respect for their newer boards. I have been nothing but happy with my TA790GXB3 board.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138163

And it just went down in price as well which makes it a good buy. I unlocked my 80W X2 545 to a quad and OC'd it up to 3.37 on stock volts. I am not having any issue with it at all. And I just checked the mosfets and they are completely cool to the touch.

But I also don't plan on trying to go any further with the OC. I am happy with my 12.5%. No need to push things. Caution is a good thing unless you have lots of money (and possibly a fire extinguisher).


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## fazio93

my board has an 8+1 phase. so that basically means that my imc/ram is running off one phase rather than two? is there much of a difference between 8+2 vs 8+1, for example, ram voltages not being as stable when trying to OC ram or tighten timings?

also, if the specs say 8+1 what is the extra mosfet in the upper right corner of the board (in between dimm slots and turbo key) see here


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## Lampen

Excellent post!


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## Davidsen

My MBoard has a 4+1 power design, and CPU's currently running at 1.56v @3.9GHz, should i have any worries regarding the damage 4+1 phase can do?


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## SpeedNuggeT

Sorry to ask, but i have a question. My mate has a Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3 Rev2 Motherboard, it's 8+2 UNHEATSINKED. We wish to overclock his 1055T to 4ghz, or around that.

Is 8+2 without heatsinks safe? we are running a Noctura D14.


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## Jonesey I7

The only thing I would add to your 4pin vs 8pin theory is that the 4pin boards are 99.9% running hotter than an 8pin board. I experienced this first hand on my last amd. Had an evo that you spoke of, and then changed out to a Gigabyte.... 10c cooler at exact same settings. Only difference was the Gigabyte had an 8pin. Just a personal experience.


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## Citra

Rep for great information!


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## [T]yphoon

thats why i always stick with Asus motherboards
costs a few pennies but you get alot of love back


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## skarm

I know this is an Intel system but whatever;

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131623

I have this motherboard except the chokes are different looking and the caps are black; if I were to drop in an i5 760 later on, should I be worried if I wanted to overclock it?


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## Jonesey I7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skarm;12423680*
> I know this is an Intel system but whatever;
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131623
> 
> I have this motherboard except the chokes are different looking and the caps are black; if I were to drop in an i5 760 later on, should I be worried if I wanted to overclock it?


absofreakinlutely.


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## Krusher33

+ rep and +1 to sticky vote. Good stuff.


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## skarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jonesey I7;12423697*
> absofreakinlutely.


you have an explanation as to why?

i5s are 95w and this motherboard is 4+2 from asus
considering i3s are 73w, 95w isn't too far off

there isn't a single asus 4+2 board that died from an oc'd phenom II up there which would use upwards of 150w
any reason why the current motherboard i have can't handle an i5 at 4.0 using ~120w?


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## ydna666

Good read +rep

MSI 790FX GD70 here, 4GHz overclock (20x200, 1.45V), all good so far. I have replaced TIM etc on the NB/Mosfet heatsink and runs much cooler than it was at stock. Flies through stress tests and performs like a champ with OC'd CPU, NB & RAM. Hoping I've got a good one (that is until Bulldozer comes out).


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## Annex

So what are some good motherboards that won't blow in the price range of $60-$99?


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## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fazio93;12420850*
> my board has an 8+1 phase. so that basically means that my imc/ram is running off one phase rather than two? is there much of a difference between 8+2 vs 8+1, for example, ram voltages not being as stable when trying to OC ram or tighten timings?
> 
> also, if the specs say 8+1 what is the extra mosfet in the upper right corner of the board (in between dimm slots and turbo key) see here


IMC runs off that "1" phase. The RAM is powered by a separate phase coming from the 24-pin ATX connector
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Davidsen;12423527*
> My MBoard has a 4+1 power design, and CPU's currently running at 1.56v @3.9GHz, should i have any worries regarding the damage 4+1 phase can do?


Only if you're unlocked to x4
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpeedNuggeT;12423588*
> Sorry to ask, but i have a question. My mate has a Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3 Rev2 Motherboard, it's 8+2 UNHEATSINKED. We wish to overclock his 1055T to 4ghz, or around that.
> 
> Is 8+2 without heatsinks safe? we are running a Noctura D14.


8+2 without heatsinks would be to a certain point fine because 8+2 runs a lot cooler; if passing 1.55V (i.e. watercooling), you'll want to invest in the heatsinks, but otherwise on a quality 8+2 phase you should be fine. NH-D14's 140MM mid fan overhangs a bit so as to give some air to mosfets area anyway actually.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skarm;12423680*
> I know this is an Intel system but whatever; http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131623
> I have this motherboard except the chokes are different looking and the caps are black; if I were to drop in an i5 760 later on, should I be worried if I wanted to overclock it?


It's a 6-phase (either 4+1+1 phase or 5+1 phase, not too sure about how it's done with Intel but I do know phases are split/arranged differently)... i5 760 is a 95W TDP processor by default though and not 125-130W, it should be fine up to a certain point I'd think.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annex;12424406*
> So what are some good motherboards that won't blow in the price range of $60-$99?


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LIU0AE]M4A79XTD EVO[/URL] - $96, $81 AR [Amazon]
M4A87TD EVO - $110 (combo deals with CPUs should push it down to <$100)
GA-870A-UD3 - $108 shipped (same principle as M4A87TD)
GA-890XA-UD3 - $90 [Zipzoomfly] (if it ever goes back in stock)

Find combo deals on Newegg for these boards and you save even more


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## t-ramp

Good read.









Does this mean I should avoid ever running my 945 on my Biostar TA785G3 HD?


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## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12424600*
> IMC runs off that "1" phase. The RAM is powered by a separate phase coming from the 24-pin ATX connector


so i guess that would be the lonely phase in upper right corner i was describing?


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## stonedzen

Nice post xx1771! This guy knows his stuff for sure, he has helped me amend my overclocking guide a couple times.

Questions though, as I'm running an MSI 790fx-gd70 right now and am upgrading to WCing soon to push my overclock...

1) What is the max safe voltage you should run on this board on air?

2) How much safer would overclocking be on this board if I put the Mosfets under water?

I've seen a couple other members run this generic block on the 790fx mosfets, I figured I could run it with my cpu loop.


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## RichardS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpeedNuggeT;12423588*
> Sorry to ask, but i have a question. My mate has a Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3 Rev2 Motherboard, it's 8+2 UNHEATSINKED. We wish to overclock his 1055T to 4ghz, or around that.
> 
> Is 8+2 without heatsinks safe? we are running a Noctura D14.


Get the Enzotech MST-88 aftermarket mosfet heatsink. I have it and it fits the board perfectly.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835708016

Deactivated on newegg but look around the net for one.

Also another vote to sticky this thread. Well done xd.


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## Concorde105

Yes, let's sticky it. Very valuable information.


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## coonmanx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t-ramp;12424885*
> Good read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean I should avoid ever running my 945 on my Biostar TA785G3 HD?


I think that it would be fine since the CPU support page says that the board can even handle an X6. The 945 should be a 95W CPU as well (correct?). But maybe I wouldn't push it all that hard, although it says that it supports CPUs up to 140W. So maybe it would not even be a problem.


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## SpeedNuggeT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RichardS;12426275*
> Get the Enzotech MST-88 aftermarket mosfet heatsink. I have it and it fits the board perfectly.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835708016
> 
> Deactivated on newegg but look around the net for one.
> 
> Also another vote to sticky this thread. Well done xd.


Thankyou. Does it use thermal paste or do you need thermal pads?


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## raisethe3

Very, very good thread. About time you did it. Rep+


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## redhat_ownage

i was thinking of writing somthing like this but i cant type for crap and it would take me more than a day so i said screw it.
great info


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## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpeedNuggeT;12426937*
> Thankyou. Does it use thermal paste or do you need thermal pads?


It usually uses a thermal pad/tape, I think it's included.... not too sure though.


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## kz26

I'm running an unlocked X4 on this thing, folding CPU+GPU without problems. Though I do have aftermarket heatsinks on the MOSFETs.


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## r31ncarnat3d

+Rep, thanks for this


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## RichardS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpeedNuggeT;12426937*
> Thankyou. Does it use thermal paste or do you need thermal pads?


It comes with a thermal pad. Just peel the plastic off the bottom on the thermal pad and pop the two plastic pins into the board and its done.


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## AgentHydra

Good stuff, should be stickied. +rep

Weird thing is my K9A2 Platinum (4+1) overclocks better than my M4A79XTD EVO (8+2). My EVO vdroops from like 1.5325v to 1.490v... any ideas?


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## xd_1771

It's sadly something the EVO is rather notorious for (vDroop). I'm thinking it's related to the PWM controller on it. Not that it doesn't overclock well or has bad value, I recommend it often.


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## TheRockMonsi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AgentHydra;12427574*
> Good stuff, should be stickied. +rep
> 
> Weird thing is my K9A2 Platinum (4+1) overclocks better than my M4A79XTD EVO (8+2). My EVO vdroops from like 1.5325v to 1.490v... any ideas?


Hardware Canucks did a review a year or so back on the M4A785TD-V EVO (it has the same power phase btw). They found out that the vdroop was significant going by what CPU-Z was telling them. However, they tested the vcore through hardware also, and found out that the vcore sensors were just really sucky. Here's the article, and a quote from it:
Quote:


> We noticed that several software applications, including CPU-Z display a fair bit of vCORE variability with a constant load on the CPU, but this was not the case when reading from a DMM. Please take software readings with a grain of salt as this board rocks out some very stable CPU power - even at above 1.6V.


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## xd_1771

In other news, an Intel board's VRMs just asploded....
eVGA board, 6-phase VRM (heatsinked) trying to run an i7 970 (130W stock TDP) overclocked. I'm thinking this failure was due to overloaded VRMs/channels rather than simple bad quality or overheating.
Looks like it does matter for Intel too folks!


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## raisethe3

Oh damn, *looks at my Rampage III and bitting my nails*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12428438*
> In other news, an Intel board's VRMs just asploded....
> eVGA board, 6-phase VRM (heatsinked) trying to run an i7 970 (130W stock TDP) overclocked. I'm thinking this failure was due to overloaded VRMs/channels rather than simple bad quality or overheating.
> Looks like it does matter for Intel too folks!


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## xd_1771

The Rampage III appears to use a much better 8-phase design


----------



## reflex99

Just an fyi, msi is aware of the problem, and are correcting it on their next generation of boards.

If you notice, the 890fxa-gd65 is 8+2,with a massive heatsink.

Also for reasons unknown to me, msi intel boards are almost all 6+2 (very high quality driver mosfets) or higher

One more thing: you should probably add that 4+1 if implemented properly can support high loads. (Biostar ta870 for example is a very good overclocker.)

And I'm 80% sure that the 890fxe is 6+1, I count 7 choke+mostfet combos. 6 in a line, and one offset a bit

Otherwise, very good job. I was going to make a guide like this, but i guess you beat me too it


----------



## antuk15

My old MSI 790FX GD70 latest less then 45 minutes when I started to overclock my current 1075T


----------



## xd_1771

The TA890FX is 4+2; 4 phases CPU, 2 phases IMC. That 7th phase is for mobo chipset. This is from counting the patterns of the mosfets/other components, not just chokes.


----------



## superste2201

Hmmmm so what if my TMPIN2 temps are quite low?

I have a 870a-g54 with a Phenom II x2 555 unlocked to 3 cores running at 3.8ghz w/ 1.45v.

Idle processor temp is 34°C
Idle TMPIN2 temp is 32°C

Load processor temp is 52°C
Load TMPIN2 temp is 34°C

TBH I am going to keep my OC and unlocked core, simply because my friend runs a Phenom II x6 on the same mobo and has been for well over 6 months.

Also IF the worse does happen I have a spare mobo I can use while I RMA, a blown VRM rarely damages any other parts. I don't feel it's worth losing an OC and unlocked quad (for most people) for this small risk, I say small because they're have been very few instances of this and I have only come across the problem on a few forums (in fact mainly just this one).

Let me know about that TMPIN2 temp however, I heard for most people it will go to 100°C before the mosfets will blow so either hwmonitor is picking up the wrong sensor or my VRM is by far cool enough.


----------



## xd_1771

unlocked to 3 cores would consume less TDP by default... but after overclocking I'd take into account the concern. Apparently not all TMPIN2 temps are mosfets... depends on the board really. I should put that down actually.


----------



## Kratthew D. Kraids

I also vote for this to get stickied, awesome guide XD_1771.


----------



## superste2201

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12438958*
> unlocked to 3 cores would consume less TDP by default... but after overclocking I'd take into account the concern. Apparently not all TMPIN2 temps are mosfets... depends on the board really. I should put that down actually.


Hmmm could I look at the board and try to spot the sensor?


----------



## xd_1771

Spot the sensor? Sensors are usually invisible things controlled by a single sensor chip that is different on each board. Unless they're add on sensors from, say, fan controllers.


----------



## reflex99

I think if you want it to get stickied, you should probably remove the MSI bashing. Even though it is mostly true, it doesn't really help the chances of it getting stickied


----------



## PhillyOverclocker

I can't seem to find if my board has 4+1, or what mosfets it uses. I will have to take a look when I open it up next week to install my new DVD burner.

Of course having the OP using the same board I have makes me feel pretty good.


----------



## reflex99

790UD4P is 8+2 (or 4+1 X2 if you want to be technical)


----------



## PhillyOverclocker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12439351*
> 790UD4P is 8+2 (or 4+1 X2 if you want to be technical)


I got a bit confused until I re-read the OP. So this type of 8+2 is a good thing?


----------



## xd_1771

Yeah, should be fine








I once accidentally set my 1055T [125W stock] to run at 1.675V... without realizing it. Board and CPU both survived


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Would it be safe to overclock a Phenom II X4 955 with Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-UD4H?


----------



## reflex99

pffft, my 890FXE was running 1.83v..... chip and board still fine....

@zelot, yea your fine. Giga has always used high quality mosfets.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er;12439422*
> Would it be safe to overclock a Phenom II X4 955 with Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-UD4H?
> ~snip~


Looks like a pretty quality-bound 4+1 phase with heatsinks so I'd consider it fine, just keep below 1.5V

reflex99: on air?


----------



## reflex99

yea, on air, then later on dice


----------



## stonedzen

Re-asking my early questions:

1) Whats the highest voltage you would call safe on an MSI 790fx-gd70 on air?

2) What if I put the Mosfets under water using this block....higher safe voltage?

I'm guessing I could do 1.45v safely, but help me out here


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *stonedzen*


Re-asking my early questions:

1) Whats the highest voltage you would call safe on an MSI 790fx-gd70 on air?

2) What if I put the Mosfets under water using this block....higher safe voltage?

I'm guessing I could do 1.45v safely, but help me out here










1. 1.45 sounds safe enough for quads, for X6, i would not go much higher than stock

2. yes cooler mosfets = they wont die as fast


----------



## xd_1771

reflex99 seems about right here. 790FX-GD70 is usually known for dying at 1.5V or above - not necessarily with a big light show.


----------



## terraprime

so is this a sticky yet? lol cause it totally needs to be in the AMD motherboard section.


----------



## goodtobeking

Very good read. Will try to link to this thread for the people having problems with cheap boards. Rep


----------



## DSF_x

i want to overclock to 4ghz with my 1055t and asus m4a89td pro usb3 version, am i good to go? is the power phase right or?


----------



## xd_1771

M4A89TD PRO/USB3 has a very good heatsinked 6+2 VRM


----------



## DSF_x

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


M4A89TD PRO/USB3 has a very good heatsinked 6+2 VRM











goood







what sort of OC do you think i could get with a h70, you seem to be in the know


----------



## RoGuE1230

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


M4A89TD PRO/USB3 has a very good heatsinked 6+2 VRM










Should be 8+2 phase. At least that's what it says right on the box.


----------



## xd_1771

H70 is a pretty decent cooler, on par with most high end coolers; since Phenom II OCs better when cooler (i.e. requiring less voltage) I'm pretty sure you could get pretty far places








The M4A89TD PRO/USB3 uses a 6+2 phase, M4A89TD PRO (not USB3) has 8+2 phase. Both the M4A89*G*TD PRO versions use 8+2 phase. Not really a huge difference I'd think, whether 8+2 or 6+2 they're both of quality.


----------



## Farih

good read,

happy i got a 32 + 6 phase board lol


----------



## RoGuE1230

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


H70 is a pretty decent cooler, on par with most high end coolers; since Phenom II OCs better when cooler (i.e. requiring less voltage) I'm pretty sure you could get pretty far places








The M4A89TD PRO/USB3 uses a 6+2 phase, M4A89TD PRO (not USB3) has 8+2 phase. Both the M4A89*G*TD PRO versions use 8+2 phase. Not really a huge difference I'd think, whether 8+2 or 6+2 they're both of quality.


whoops, sorry. Didn't see the lack of a G in that. But I can say, the MOSFET heatsink on my M4A89GTD PRO/USB3 stays VERY cool.


----------



## IntelConvert

great write up, +rep for that

i noticed all the chokes on the side of my CPU and i know i have a 6 phase board (back in 775 baby!) and there are 6 chokes so i connected the dots. its nice to have confirmation. im glad i have this board, 4.4ghz and no hiccups

once again, thanks for the great info!


----------



## xd_1771

E8400 is 65W stock, overclokced should probably take no more than 95W or so







I tihnk you're fairly safe


----------



## pioneerisloud

Very good read. You forgot about my Gigabyte board that died in like April of last year. Gigabyte 760G, 95w Athlon II x4, stock everything. Died within 6 hours.


----------



## xd_1771

Wow, that must've been a really faulty board then to blow up on a 95W processor. 3+1 should be okay on 95W processor + stock cooler + stock speed in most cases... just wouldn't go any higher than that


----------



## Krusher33

Didn't we determine that it was a budget board though? They probably cut cost on the VRM's as well and if I recall, someone brought up that a lot of people had similar situation with that board. I vaguely remember stating that it should be brought to FCC's attention considering.

Of course I may be mistaking for another thread. I tend to get attracted to threads talking about boards going up in flames.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Here's a link to my thread about my Gigabyte failure. Of course, that's if you'd like to put it in the OP. It's just another thread of proof







.


----------



## xd_1771

I think so, that board does have a somewhat cheaped out 3+1.... I don't think it's ever been especially notorious though for blowing, or I haven't seen it yet.


----------



## TKNOHCKR

Thanks for the info XD_1771


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12447264*
> I think so, that board does have a somewhat cheaped out 3+1.... I don't think it's ever been especially notorious though for blowing, or I haven't seen it yet.


If you're referring to my Gigabyte board, I've seen 3 or 4 of them blow up here on OCN alone. I know SmasherBasher's cooked. I want to say he was running an Athlon II x2 at the time on it.


----------



## raisethe3

Wow, that's crazy. So I guess phases matters a lot to overclocker/gamers.

To put it short:

Gamer/overclocker/running 125w+ cpu= a high end board with 8+2 phases

Web browsing/light application/no overclocking/under 95w cpu= low end board with at least 6+2 phase

Is this correct xd?








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12447257*
> Here's a link to my thread about my Gigabyte failure. Of course, that's if you'd like to put it in the OP. It's just another thread of proof
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raisethe3;12447973*
> Wow, that's crazy. So I guess phases matters a lot to overclocker/gamers.
> 
> To put it short:
> 
> Gamer/overclocker/running 125w+ cpu= a high end board with 8+2 phases
> 
> Web browsing/light application/no overclocking/under 95w cpu= low end board with at least 6+2 phase
> 
> Is this correct xd?


Preferably 8+2 phase for 125W CPU, though phase count doesn't always mean everything; once again take TA890FXE, 4+2 phase but rock solid. If mATX is a limitation a quality 4+1 with heatsinks would be fine.

95W processors should be fine on 4+1 phase, overclocking you may prefer having a mosfet heatsink on there.


----------



## strap624

Hmmm i'm glad my Big bang is 16+1


----------



## EfemaN

This needs to be stickied in both the AMD and Intel motherboards forums, awesome write-up!

I laughed at the "nothing is idiot proof" tag


----------



## xd_1771

I certainly didn't put that tag in








EfemaN you've given me an idea.... I've adjusted the article so it can apply for Intel processors as well. Perhaps I should mirror this there? i.e. with the help of another member who knows Intel VRMs


----------



## Hatakescreams

good read +1


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raisethe3;12447973*
> Wow, that's crazy. So I guess phases matters a lot to overclocker/gamers.
> 
> To put it short:
> 
> Gamer/overclocker/running 125w+ cpu= a high end board with 8+2 phases
> 
> Web browsing/light application/no overclocking/under 95w cpu= low end board with at least 6+2 phase
> 
> Is this correct xd?


I would put it more like this:

Well designed 4+1=fine as long as you don't oc

6+1/2= moderate oc, should be fine for most people, just don't go pushing 1.6v through this (unless it is the fxe ofc)

8+x and higher=pretty much bullet-proof


----------



## Mygaffer

Man, Tator Tot got really heated in the linked thread.


----------



## reflex99

also, another thing came to me.

In the end part of the article, you say that 4pin vs 8pin doesn't really matter, but I would argue otherwise.

Sure, 4pin can supply the needed power. Hell, it could probably supply 200w fine.

The reason that most manufacturers have 8pin connectors on their boards if because it leads to much better voltage stability.

This is why most Midrange asus boards (ones with 4 pin connectors) have HORRIBLE voltage swings, even though they have an other wise fine 8 phase power delivery system.. (I'm looking at you 785TD-V EVO, and 79XTD EVO). And thus, they are not the best boards for overclocking.


----------



## xd_1771

Thanks for that, I thought vDroop stemmed down to the PWM controller.


----------



## reflex99

That is part of it, but it also has to do with the connector.

Most people think it is because our processors use more power, but that is not true, the real reason they added the second 4 pin connector is to assist with voltage regulation.

Think about it. Pentium 4 at 130w ran off a 4 pin. Not like it used any less power than an i7 130w


----------



## BlackHoleSon

Am I in any danger? haha.


----------



## reflex99

Wouldn't push too hard.


----------



## BlackHoleSon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12450429*
> Wouldn't push too hard.


I've had it running at 1.312 volts for a while, clocked from 2.3GHz to 2.8GHz. I tried going a little further but it wouldn't POST so I figured it's best if I keep it here.


----------



## reflex99

1.3v isn't much

still, 3+1 is kinda iffy


----------



## BlackHoleSon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12450458*
> 1.3v isn't much
> 
> still, 3+1 is kinda iffy


I had 1.47v on my Athlon X2 for a much longer time, although it's a dual core, the TDP's aren't far off.


----------



## reflex99

just sayin' that 3+1 isn't ideal for overclocking.

Your board is probably fine. Biostar Tseries is pretty good line


----------



## xd_1771

3+1 definitely really not ideal for overclocking anything except a 65W TDP processor really.
On the other hand, just took in some individual examples from the "I toasted my 890FX-GD70 Club"...
The list of horror stories in the article is getting quite long


----------



## reflex99

The MSI 790FX/890FX boards are actually really good for overclocking anything except quads.

Back when Phenom II (AM3, 710, 720, 550 etc) first showed up, the 790FX-GD70 was the go-to board for overclocking.

Not really sure what happened when quads showed up...... Wish it could have remained a good board. I love MSI, but I didn't want to chance it with my dry ice rig.

Also xd, what do you think of this board:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138163

I wanna say 5+1, but that seems really weird. Maybe 4+2 like the FXE?


----------



## xd_1771

Some of the examples in that thread weren't even the 890FXA-GD70.
I'm pretty sure the first Phenom IIs that showed up were quads, i.e. it started with x4 920, 940...... went to AM3 CPUs starting with x4 955, 965, x3 720, x2 550

That's an older Biostar board, don't think it's of as much quality as the newer Biostar board. Figuring out phase/channel arrangement by looking at the mosfets, it's a 4+1 - big "1R5" one on the left = IMC phase, the 4 small ones marked "1R0" are main phases, and "1R2" phase is apparently unrelated. I don't think it's as decent, doesn't look to be low RDS for one


----------



## reflex99

Fairly sure that Phenom II was released like (could be wrong though







)

940/920 first, but they were am2, so the GD70 wouldn't use those.

Then the 720/710 came out, then a few weeks later the 965/955/550 showed up.

A lot of the 790FX reviews are done with 710s and 720s, which makes me think that 955s/965s weren't availible yet.


----------



## vinton13

Now I'm frightened.
Making me feel to lower my clock on this board.









Btw, when a computer catches on fire, what do you guys do to put it out without damaging the rest of the components?


----------



## ocpokey

Quote:



Originally Posted by *vinton13*


Now I'm frightened.
Making me feel to lower my clock on this board.









Btw, when a computer catches n fire, what do you guys do to put it our without damaging the rest of the components?


Same thing you do to put out any fire? Use a fire extinguisher.

What a weird thread this is.


----------



## reflex99

Just unplug the power cord. That is the safest thing you can do.

The fire is unlikely to spread outside of the case.


----------



## nicksasa

My M3N78-PRO that's now in my server didn't blow up with my 955 @ 3.8Ghz 1.43V ... The mosfet's just made really scary noises under load








4+1 unheatsinked btw. And now it's having a great time with my 7750 @ 1Ghz 0.85V


----------



## xd_1771

I think M4A77D is one of the more quality bound 4+1 phases
Keeping at 3.6Ghz assuming only moderate amount of voltage, add some mosfet heatsinks and you should be okay


----------



## reflex99

Phenom C2 takes just as much volts to get 3.6 as C3 takes for 4.0

It is likely that he is using 1.5v


----------



## linkin93

Nice write up you've done









Out of curiosity, do you know if my board is good or bad with the VRM's?


----------



## nicksasa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *linkin93;12450805*
> Nice write up you've done
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you know if my board is good or bad with the VRM's?


It's fine, same layout as the 890GX. 8+2 with a nice heatsink








It could be 10+1 as there's another choke next to the 12V line but i doubt it.


----------



## ocpokey

Never can tell, I often see you warn against MSI, but my 870-G45 running an unlocked phenom ii x2 (to 4 cores) OC'd to 4GHz with 4+1 phase power has TMPIN2 @ 25C.

I would OC even farther but since it's only an X2 the last core is too weak to be stable at 1.5V or less under prime95. Tres sad.


----------



## xd_1771

*ocpokey*: TMPIN2 on that MSI board is not the VRMs. It was discussed earlier here. Now get those cores locked before bad things happen!









*reflex99*: I needed 1.472V on my C2 965.... for 3.8Ghz. Granted the 945 is probably lower-binned but I don't think there's a need for 1.5V at 3.6Ghz

*linkin93*: the ASRock 880G Extreme3 has an 8+2 phase... new ASRock boards are actually really decent. Since they come from ASUS and ASUS is normally rock solid, I'd think it's fairly good


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ocpokey*


Never can tell, I often see you warn against MSI, but my 870-G45 running an unlocked phenom ii x2 (to 4 cores) OC'd to 4GHz with 4+1 phase power has TMPIN2 @ 25C.

I would OC even farther but since it's only an X2 the last core is too weak to be stable at 1.5V or less under prime95. Tres sad.


your board may be fine

But it is hard to dispute the facts, there are a lot more MSI failures than other brands


----------



## xd_1771

Once again (bringing this over from the other page), TMPIN2 on that MSI board is NOT the VRMs! We discussed this only a few pages ago. You could be seriously compromising your build right now...


----------



## nicksasa

And xd_1771 asrock is no longer part of asus







Since then they are making good boards.


----------



## johnny.dot.exe

Nice write-up.

I'm the author of the "I toasted my MSI 890fx-gd70 club" thread...had two of those boards fry before I realized what the problem was, and switched to an Asus CHIV. This CHIV is absolutely, without a doubt, the best board I have ever used. I will NEVER purchase another MSI product as long as I continue building rigs.

The amount of failures like this on MSI boards was astounding, I felt compelled to make a thread to get a better idea of who all got screwed by MSI's poor component choices and lack of quality control. I also hoped that a thread booming with these stories would be enough to make MSI realize there's a problem, since they ignore our feedback and try to resolve everything by RMA'ing us the same faulty products.

To this very day I have yet to see or hear anything from MSI stating they acknowledge the issue and/or plan to make it right. So the only goal we can really aim for with what we're doing, is to simply warn others, since the manufacturers apparently refuse to listen.


----------



## xd_1771

Hey there!








Well, one thing's for sure: MSI *is* in fact doing something about it. The new MSI 890FXA-GD65 is loaded, 8+2 phase that is actually really decent, great features... and Am3+ socket support perhaps even. The pictures of the Big Bang Conqueror 990FX AM3+ mobo available online show the board's left side overloaded with a massive VRM system (I think it was a 24+2 phase digital PWM VRM!? Serious overloading is serious!). I have a feeling MSI is going to become a lot better in this coming year


----------



## johnny.dot.exe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12450913*
> Well, one thing's for sure: MSI is doing something about it. The MSI 890FXA-GD65 is loaded, 8+2 phase that is actually really decent, great features... and Am3+ socket support perhaps even. The pictures of the Big Bang Conqueror 990FX AM3+ mobo show massive VRMs. I have a feeling MSI is going to become a lot better in this coming year


Well, they definitely owe the PC community better products. Every single MSI board I've owned has failed, 99% of the time something melted or caught fire. Once upon a time MSI products were great, everyone loved them...now, not so much.

If MSI is going to change their ways and start offering better products, with better customer support, they'll have to live up to that for quite a while before I ever decide to give them a try again.


----------



## reflex99

also like to point out that MSI is very good on the GPU and Intel VRM departments.

They know what they are doing, they just need to apply it in the right areas


----------



## xd_1771

Sometimes I think manufacturers can be simply really picky concerning AMD platforms I guess







not just MSI either I think. Many companies like eVGA, etc. don't even release motherboards for AMD.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


Sometimes I think manufacturers can be simply really picky concerning AMD platforms I guess







not just MSI either I think. Many companies like eVGA, etc. don't even release motherboards for AMD.


less $$$ in it.

eVGA just wants to be "the best" so they don't waste R&D on AMD, and instead use it to pay amazing people like Shamino (although he is no longer there), and produce amazing boards like the SR-2


----------



## vinton13

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


Phenom C2 takes just as much volts to get 3.6 as C3 takes for 4.0

It is likely that he is using 1.5v


Actually, 1.45v
LLC on.


----------



## reflex99

so like 1.5 under load?


----------



## SpeedNuggeT

So if a VRM/Mosfet blows, what exactly does it take with it apart from the Motherboard?


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *SpeedNuggeT*


So if a VRM/Mosfet blows, what exactly does it take with it apart from the Motherboard?


Possibly the PSU

and is rare cases the CPU.

In even rarer cases, memory or video cards


----------



## SpeedNuggeT

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


Possibly the PSU

and is rare cases the CPU.

In even rarer cases, memory or video cards


So basically just the motherboard. I'm on a Corsair HX 850, does that have some protection against this sorta thing?


----------



## reflex99

Probably?

HX850 is a good PSU.

We are talking about VRMs though. The UD7 is way more than adequate


----------



## SpeedNuggeT

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


Probably?

HX850 is a good PSU.

We are talking about VRMs though. The UD7 is way more than adequate


As i am aware. This was more for my friend, who has a 870G and HX850.


----------



## vinton13

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


so like 1.5 under load?


Just saying: This board has fluctuation issues. I can set it at 1.45 in the BIOS but it spikes between, circa, 1.40 to 1.55 according to HW Monitor.

Another weird thing: My load voltages are lower than my idle voltages. I once under volt the CPU to 1.225 and HW Monitor reads it as 1.17 to 1.18 when under load. Idle it goes right back to 1.225v. Lol. So I can't really say for sure.


----------



## reflex99

vdoop(drop?) is normal

It is a feature that is supposed to extend the life of components.

LLC is supposed to correct it, but is not perfect


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *SpeedNuggeT*


As i am aware. This was more for my friend, who has a 870G and HX850.


Which board?

There are good 870 boards, and there are not so good ones

Also, @xd_

Look what I found:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813130564

Another MSI board with 8+2 and beefy heatsink.

MSI I am impress


----------



## IntelConvert

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


E8400 is 65W stock, overclokced should probably take no more than 95W or so







I tihnk you're fairly safe


o ya, this board is solid and the E8400 is a great chip. im really glad i got both. the UD3R and my Seasonic PSU are ready for anything i can throw at it.

this write up will influence my future purchases and recommendations, thanks again


----------



## [\/]Paris

Well, as one of the people who's thread you visted







Thanks for the info!

My friend was able to build his system without any problems thanks to the suggested build list tweaks you mentioned in relation to power phases. Running rock solid now.


----------



## xd_1771

The 870A Fuzion... eh...
1. Costs more than 890FXA-GD65
2. TrueCrossfireX/SLI hack unlike Lucid Hydra makes performance scale upward, not downard








3. 890FX chipset > 770 chipset

Don't care if it also has 8+2 VRMs, I wouldn't buy it.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


The 870A Fuzion... eh...
1. Costs more than 890FXA-GD65
2. TrueCrossfireX/SLI hack unlike Lucid Hydra makes performance scale upward, not downard








3. 890FX chipset > 770 chipset

Don't care if it also has 8+2 VRMs, I wouldn't buy it.


Not saying it is a good value, just saying that MSI has learned, and put a 8+2 phase setup.

and it is a 870 chipset.


----------



## xd_1771

870 chipset is no different than 770. I don't see any big differences - maybe a CMOS process shrink, but that's it. Kind of like how 880G and 890GX are just improvised 785G.
MSI has a great way to start off the new year for AMD enthusiasts though







I just hope that the quality as well as amount has improved (consider similar 4+1 phase from different companies could hold up a lot better)


----------



## reflex99

870 is also a die shrink I think.

And it seems that the fuzion power can push HTT clocks pretty high.

Overclock3D got theirs to 400


----------



## xd_1771

Wow, that's pretty good. I've heard the 870 chipset can be a fairly good and bulletproof overclocker actually.


----------



## reflex99

Further reading the OC3D article, it acutally seems to be a really nice board:

http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/c...usive_review/8

Kinda want to try this fuzion stuff


----------



## xd_1771

I think this one uses the new Lucid Hydra 200, which I think has improved over the original Hydra which was terrible. Nice stuff!


----------



## sixor

well my mobo still resist with default vcores, only oc by multi


----------



## xd_1771

Have any mosfet heatsinks on their sixor? Cheapo case makes me think warm ambient temperature and little airflow. To begin with, tower cooler + 125W processor + unheatsinked 4+1 = no air to mosfets = no way to radiate/move heat = overheat = omg I'm on fire! Not only that, the VRMs on the 785GM-US2H aren't of as good quality. There's one blow-up situation involving that board in my horror stories list, an x3 720 (95W stock TDP) at 1.6V and above blew it. Older Gigabyte boards before the recent ones with low RDS, Ultra Durable 3 and all didn't really hold up well without mosfet cooling.


----------



## thrasherht

So if 4+1 is so bad, why does my board have it and is doing just fine?
I mean I have a good heatsink and all that, but isn't this issue more based on the quality of the components, not the actual 4+1 design?


----------



## PhillyOverclocker

Vote sticky.


----------



## xd_1771

Read the article, I've said phase count doesn't mean everything. You're on a DFI board, the quality of DFI boards is absolutely great, so great that I almost don't believe it


----------



## nicksasa

There aren't too many boards out there with low quality mosfet's except for MSI.
And a few weeks ago i had some fun blowing up mosfet's that i use in my circuits) by running a few amps trough them while they were rated for 1A. At 3A they got really hot, if you dropped a drip of water on it it evaporated immediatly, and after some time a liquid comes out. But they were still working so i removed my pwm controller and got 7A trough it, and it literally exploded into pieces.

(I'm a guy that lieks to destroy things (not my pc ofcourse !







) and 270V on a NE555 in water is fun.)

Not that it has anything to do with the mosfet's on motherboards.


----------



## Drenlin

So, is there a list somewhere of solid 4+1 boards, so we can go "it's fine, ****" when someone flips out about one of them?

I've already had to defend my little bro's Gigabyte 890GPA-UD3H a couple of times...


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nicksasa;12459033*
> There aren't too many boards out there with low quality mosfet's except for MSI.
> And a few weeks ago i had some fun blowing up mosfet's that i use in my circuits) by running a few amps trough them while they were rated for 1A. At 3A they got really hot, if you dropped a drip of water on it it evaporated immediatly, and after some time a liquid comes out. But they were still working so i removed my pwm controller and got 7A trough it, and it literally exploded into pieces.
> 
> (I'm a guy that lieks to destroy things (not my pc ofcourse !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and 270V on a NE555 in water is fun.)
> 
> Not that it has anything to do with the mosfet's on motherboards.


that sounds super fun


----------



## foxt

This thread made me register! I'm not new to OC, but am new to the AM3 socket AMDs. I have just put together an x2 555 and an Asus M4A78LT-M LE. Asus specs the board for 95W CPUs. All 4 cores unlocked on the 555. Haven't tried to OC yet, maybe will not at all.

When I look at the board, I see four chokes near the CPU, which leads me to believe that this is a 3+1 board? And the mosfets look like regular transistors, not low RDS(on) versions. Do I have that right?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131619

If this is a 3+1 board, if I add heatsinks to the mosfets and stay at stock (including the hsf), am I ok at 4 cores, or do I need to lock back up? In other words, does the addition of heatsinks enable you to push that 95W rating, or will something else in the VRM become the weak link? If so, what would that be?


----------



## Averwind

Quote:


> Biostar (on newer boards), Gigabyte, DFI and ASUS, and ASRock (on newer, higher end boards) usually have the best VRM quality. Though the VRMs aren't necessarily always low RDS, etc. with them, I've found they usually have much better VRM quality and adequate ratings.


So MSI Military spec components is just a marketing gimmick?


----------



## Drenlin

^ Sort of. If you think about it, the military give manufacturing contracts to the lowest bidder...so they probably are not lying about it.


----------



## Starbuck5000

Quote:


> Basically the more phases you have, the more reliable operation because power is split between more phases; the more phases may be smaller, but nevertheless this is much more reliable. More phases/channels is better. Such bigger phases (i.e. 8+2) can be only found on ATX boards usually.


This is not quite true. More phases is not always better per say. What you also have to consider is the implementation of them.

As you probably know the inputs to the board is as 12v's; what then happens is you have a buck controller(its a dc to dc step down transformer of sorts) which is controlled by a pwm controller to charge and discharge an inductor. This can then be chained together with others each one switching on a slightly different cycle.

The reason brands like Gigabyte use loads of phases in this manner is mainly driven by cost and the difficulties in developing large power transistors. And while this system will give you clean power its useless if it cant provide enough power. In other words you could have over 9000 phases but if the VRM ins't capable of supplier a high enough amount or current or the slew rate is too low it won't really matter.


----------



## alltoasters

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nicksasa;12459033*
> There aren't too many boards out there with low quality mosfet's except for MSI.
> And a few weeks ago i had some fun blowing up mosfet's that i use in my circuits) by running a few amps trough them while they were rated for 1A. At 3A they got really hot, if you dropped a drip of water on it it evaporated immediatly, and after some time a liquid comes out. But they were still working so i removed my pwm controller and got 7A trough it, and it literally exploded into pieces.
> 
> (I'm a guy that lieks to destroy things (not my pc ofcourse !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and 270V on a NE555 in water is fun.)
> 
> Not that it has anything to do with the mosfet's on motherboards.


I do stuff like that at college. I found an old case fan that someone had pulled the wires out of, so I soldered new ones on, and plugged it in to a power supply at 30v (the highest), and it worked for a bit, then it started to stutter, and moments later it died







.

But on op's topic:

I don't know why motherboard manufactures are cheaping out over the vrms. My board is a pretty low end 775, It only has 1 pcie 16x slot, yet it has 8 phase power. How can they sell boards as "overclocking" yet they are not even as well made as a basic board like this. It doesn't cost much more to implement 8 phase anyway. When I bought this they were selling a different version of this board (non plus) which doesn't have 8 phase power, and a few other minor things, and there was only £1 difference in price. The thing is im sure 8 phase power doesn't even matter here, since its not big high wattage amd chips.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:



Originally Posted by *foxt*


This thread made me register! I'm not new to OC, but am new to the AM3 socket AMDs. I have just put together an x2 555 and an Asus M4A78LT-M LE. Asus specs the board for 95W CPUs. All 4 cores unlocked on the 555. Haven't tried to OC yet, maybe will not at all.

When I look at the board, I see four chokes near the CPU, which leads me to believe that this is a 3+1 board? And the mosfets look like regular transistors, not low RDS(on) versions. Do I have that right?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131619

If this is a 3+1 board, if I add heatsinks to the mosfets and stay at stock (including the hsf), am I ok at 4 cores, or do I need to lock back up? In other words, does the addition of heatsinks enable you to push that 95W rating, or will something else in the VRM become the weak link? If so, what would that be?


It is a 3+1 board, and a cheaped out one as well. Since the board isn't even rated for 125W at all.... yeah, don't. I'm surprised it hasn't blown. I'd still keep them locked since if you try an RMA ASUS will probably deny it, unlocking voids the warranty and 125W CPUs not supported


----------



## reflex99

4 phase boaRds doin it right:

-anything dfi
-biostar 890fxe and 890gxe
-giga 890gpa-ud3h

Probably others too


----------



## Razi3l

The Gigabyte 890GPA-UD3H has 4+1 phase design but that mb is very good. Had it with a 955 and it was great.


----------



## thrasherht

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


Read the article, I've said phase count doesn't mean everything. You're on a DFI board, the quality of DFI boards is absolutely great, so great that I almost don't believe it










I love my DFI board. So that means that it isn't really 4+1 that is the issue, because it can be a quality setup. It just so happens that companies like to skim and use the 4+1 phase design.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *thrasherht*


I love my DFI board. So that means that it isn't really 4+1 that is the issue, because it can be a quality setup. It just so happens that companies like to skim and use the 4+1 phase design.


It isn't really skimping, it is more of fitting a price catergory

You aren't going to deck out a $50 board with 8 phase power, most likely that board will never need more than 4 phases.

MSI 790/890 boards are an exception to this.


----------



## foxt

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


It is a 3+1 board, and a cheaped out one as well. Since the board isn't even rated for 125W at all.... yeah, don't. I'm surprised it hasn't blown. I'd still keep them locked since if you try an RMA ASUS will probably deny it, unlocking voids the warranty and 125W CPUs not supported


Thanks for the confirmation. And thanks for the thread ...

This one looks like 4+1, and is rated at 140W - but still has the cheaper mosfets. I assume with heatsinks I'd be ok to unlock, and maybe even OC. I am curious though, aside from an additional phase, given the jump from 95W on the other 3+1 board to 140W on this 4+1 board, the overall quality of the phases on the 4+1 example must be quite a bit better?


----------



## xd_1771

Your particular board? Maybe different revision, or not "LE"
It might be better


----------



## TKNOHCKR

Hey XD_1771, what do you think of these boards, I am stuck on which one I shall purchase
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-297-_-Product
Or
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131646

I will most likely be getting an athlon 2 X2 250 or 255 and shall upgrade down the road to an 1100T Phenom X6


----------



## reflex99

you could check our

AMD motherboard phasing thread


----------



## TKNOHCKR

Well that seems to almost settle the score, thanks reflex99. But If the MSI Fuzion has quality phasers, would it not be a better buy considering features and small price difference?


----------



## reflex99

I think that you might have confuused the 870a fuzion, with the 870a fuzion _power edition_

The vanilla fuzion is a pretty poor board


----------



## TKNOHCKR

Ohh I see, well looks like it will be the asus board for me. thanks


----------



## xd_1771

Defintiely. I'd get M4A88TD-V EVO or M4A87TD EVO over that, or M4A79XTD EVO if you don't mind a lil vDroop and no SATAIII/USB3


----------



## tmunn

Just out of curiosity, how is the ASUS M4A785-M? It's what I use in my HTPC along with a Athlon 7850. It is certainly more than enough for that chip but I may want to upgrade that chip someday.

Edit: I just saw Reflex's link. I'm guessing this mobo is simply the DDR2 version of the M4A785T-M.


----------



## killabytes

Woa misinformation ahoy!

Chokes are not capacitors, they're inductors. The exact opposite of capacitors.

Little dumbed down about MOSFETS; could of at least said that it's an acronym.

*M*etal *O*xide *F*ield *E*ffect *T*ransistor.

Carry on.


----------



## nitd_kim

I'm just going to trust that my mobo is a quality board that can take the 133watts of my cpu :]

right now just running 1.4v 3.4ghz because I lowered my fanspeeds :]


----------



## tmunn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *killabytes;12465923*
> Woa misinformation ahoy!
> 
> Chokes are not capacitors, they're inductors. The exact opposite of capacitors.
> 
> Little dumbed down...


Truth, chokes are inductors.

However, the "exact opposite" comment requires some clarification(or un-"dumbing down" as the quoted poster so eloquently put it). Both inductors and capacitors store energy, magnetically and statically, respectively. The difference between the two lies in their ability to filter certain types of current. Inductors block AC while capacitors block DC.


----------



## killabytes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tmunn;12466108*
> Truth, chokes are inductors.
> 
> However, the "exact opposite" comment requires some clarification(or un-"dumbing down" as the quoted poster so eloquently put it). Both inductors and capacitors store energy, magnetically and statically, respectively. The difference between the two lies in their ability to filter certain types of current. Inductors block AC while capacitors block DC.


I'm an Electrical Engineer. I deal directly with Theory. On paper, they are exact opposite.


----------



## lightsout

lol @ all those msi boards on there. Yikes!


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tmunn;12465874*
> Just out of curiosity, how is the ASUS M4A785-M? It's what I use in my HTPC along with a Athlon 7850. It is certainly more than enough for that chip but I may want to upgrade that chip someday.
> 
> Edit: I just saw Reflex's link. I'm guessing this mobo is simply the DDR2 version of the M4A785T-M.


It appears to be 4+1 with high quality mosfets/transistors.

I would say it is a good board for the X2


----------



## zaeric19

Good thread with info that not enough people think about before buying mobos. +1

I wanted to chime in about PWM and what it does since the OP didn't really talk about what it is. PWM stands for pulse width modulation, basically what PWM does take a voltage, say 12v and switches back and forth between 12v and 0v really quickly. That signal goes through a low-pass filter and a voltage between 0v and 12v is obtained. That voltage can be adjusted by changing the width (time) of the 12v pulses, by making wider 12v pulses the average voltage over a given period of time is higher resulting in a higher voltage. PWM is very efficient and offers a large amount of control, which is why it is used for adjusting DC voltages in computers. PWM has many other applications and uses, lots of them using PWM's ability to convert DC to AC. Wikipedia has a few good graphs demonstrating how it works but a lot of the article might be confusing for some.


----------



## TKNOHCKR

Ok guys, I ended up only being able to find a limited quantity of choices for mobo's. I went to COMPUSA and there where boards not of my liking for the prices. So I ended up going to a small mom and pop distributor that has been around since I can remember. They had an Asus M4A87TD-EVO for $117. I ended up opting for that MOBO. Then While I was at COMPUSA, I had the business rep get me an Athlon 2 X2 255. He was able to knock off 11 percent off of $64.95. I just got the rig together and am now working on getting drivers and such installed. I will have to say that I am happy with my purchase. Thanks everyone for helping me decide.


----------



## xd_1771

Athlon II x2 doesn't need huge VRMs due to low 65W TDP, but I guess that a better deal on M4A87TD EVO rather than another board is still good


----------



## Kokin

Edit: Thank god my thread wasn't included in that long list. :3

So would my motherboard be at it's limits if running at 1.45v as an x4 at 4ghz? I have run up to 1.55v-1.6v on the same motherboard before and that did die eventually, though my previous 955 C2 was still alive and kicking!

Another question: does increasing the CPU-NB voltage also affect the vrms in a negative way (it's only 1 phase power on my board) and how high can I set the voltage ceiling for the CPU-NB voltage? Would 1.35v-1.45v be too high for the single power phase?

Also, how is my board compared to an Asus M4A79XTD EVO (8+2 split power phase) in terms of overclock-ability? I have a friend who has that board and we could _possibly_ trade. Since he cannot unlock his x2 on his board, but was able to unlock his x2 into an x3 on my board, it seems like a nice upgrade for him. He also has 2x 6850s to make use of all my PCI-E lanes (2cards 16x or 4cards 8x) vs my single 4890 on his (1card 16x or 2cards 8x) board. He does not really overclock that high (maybe 3.7-3.8ghz on stock voltage), so my board would definitely handle his x3. My only gripe is that I'm downgrading from a 790FX (paid $165) to a 790X(he paid $90), but if lets me overclock higher or more stably, I would consider trading him mobos.

Opinions on these matters? Sorry for the walls of text.


----------



## xd_1771

The CPU-NB uses that spare single phase and shouldn't affect the other CPU phases.... doesn't consume as much power though. I'm not entirely sure about it but I think 1.35-1.4V would be fine. Just don't go pushing 1.5V+ on it.

M4A79XTD EVO is a very good board solid VRMs overclockability is fair, just has a slight vDroop that can hamper things a bit. I think you should go for it, both parties probably benefit.


----------



## Kokin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12477591*
> The CPU-NB uses that spare single phase and shouldn't affect the other CPU phases.... doesn't consume as much power though. I'm not entirely sure about it but I think 1.35-1.4V would be fine. Just don't go pushing 1.5V+ on it.
> 
> M4A79XTD EVO is a very good board solid VRMs overclockability is fair, just has a slight vDroop that can hamper things a bit. I think you should go for it, both parties probably benefit.


Thanks for the quick response. I'll wait for other opinions and ask my friend on his opinion of it as well.


----------



## just_nuke_em

Great article OP







. Never knew about the split phases.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zaeric19;12469410*
> Good thread with info that not enough people think about before buying mobos. +1
> 
> I wanted to chime in about PWM and what it does since the OP didn't really talk about what it is. PWM stands for pulse width modulation, basically what PWM does take a voltage, say 12v and switches back and forth between 12v and 0v really quickly. That signal goes through a low-pass filter and a voltage between 0v and 12v is obtained. That voltage can be adjusted by changing the width (time) of the 12v pulses, by making wider 12v pulses the average voltage over a given period of time is higher resulting in a higher voltage. PWM is very efficient and offers a large amount of control, which is why it is used for adjusting DC voltages in computers. PWM has many other applications and uses, lots of them using PWM's ability to convert DC to AC. Wikipedia has a few good graphs demonstrating how it works but a lot of the article might be confusing for some.


Mobo VRMs are more than just a PWM with a low pass filter. Look up the buck regulator/converter for how the circuit actually works.


----------



## xd_1771

Split phases are why AMD phases are numbered as such 4+1. AM3 CPUs can run on a non-split phase but some features may be downgraded as a result


----------



## xd_1771

*Bump*
I'm going to send a PM to have this stickied real soon


----------



## pioneerisloud

Hey XD, what do you think about the MSI 980a board, paired with a 1055T? Would it be a decent match for 1.55v and 4+ GHz? Will it even reach 300+ ref. clock?


----------



## xd_1771

I've seen MSI 980A blow-ups before. With a power-heavy x6 and a big 1.55V I don't recommend it at all. I don't think those nVidia chipset boards will overclock to 300Mhz ref clock (or as far as AMD chipsets) either. Sadly the other choice (ASUS 980A) suffers from a Vdroop issue.... your best choice honestly may be to get an AMD chipset board and use SLI hack


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


I've seen MSI 980A blow-ups before. With a power-heavy x6 and a big 1.55V I don't recommend it at all. I don't think those nVidia chipset boards will overclock to 300Mhz ref clock (or as far as AMD chipsets) either. Sadly the other choice (ASUS 980A) suffers from a Vdroop issue.... your best choice honestly may be to get an AMD chipset board and use SLI hack


Grrr. I couldn't find one that had the right PCIe layout with PCI slots usable.


----------



## Dissentience

I ordered an ASRock 880G EXTREME3 (8+2 phase, heatsink on MOSFETs) to replace my blown up MSI board. I will never again make the mistake of buying a board with crap VRMs.


----------



## xd_1771

What was your blown up MSI board? I don't believe I've added it to the horror story list yet?
EDIT: Never mind, forgot that your thread was the reason I created this article


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


What was your blown up MSI board? I don't believe I've added it to the horror story list yet?
EDIT: Never mind, forgot that your thread was the reason I created this article










Lol you get so excited when you find another horror story to add


----------



## Dissentience

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


What was your blown up MSI board? I don't believe I've added it to the horror story list yet?
EDIT: Never mind, forgot that your thread was the reason I created this article


















Haha c'mon now


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud*


Hey XD, what do you think about the MSI 980a board, paired with a 1055T? Would it be a decent match for 1.55v and 4+ GHz? Will it even reach 300+ ref. clock?


1. no

2. no

3. no

4. no


----------



## pioneerisloud

Looks like I'm sticking with my DFI + Athlon then. :/


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud*


Looks like I'm sticking with my DFI + Athlon then. :/


Darn. Was hoping for a burny v4.0


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Krusher33*


Darn. Was hoping for a burny v4.0


Lol VRM asplosions must excite you the way a new horror story excites me


----------



## dixson01974

Ok. I going to say this only one time. 
1) For ocing the cpu the 4+1 power phase is no good for any triple, quad or six core.
2) Only good for ocing dual cores.
3) Good for a stock triple or quad if they have VRM coolers on them. 
4) For six-core no way I would even try it.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *dixson01974*


Ok. I going to say this only one time. 
1) For ocing the cpu the 4+1 power phase is no good for any triple, quad or six core.
2) Only good for ocing dual cores.
3) Good for a stock triple or quad if they have VRM coolers on them. 
4) For six-core no way I would even try it.


The M2RS and M3RS would beg to differ


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


The M2RS and M3RS would beg to differ


Looks at sig rig...

Yeah I'd have to agree.....


----------



## thrasherht

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


The M2RS and M3RS would beg to differ


I agree with that also.

*looks at sig rig motherboard*


----------



## pioneerisloud

Hmmm, maybe I should just grab a 955BE instead, and just throw it on this board.

Needs CPU-NB adjustments though







.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *dixson01974*


Ok. I going to say this only one time. 
1) For ocing the cpu the 4+1 power phase is no good for any triple, quad or six core.
2) Only good for ocing dual cores.
3) Good for a stock triple or quad if they have VRM coolers on them. 
4) For six-core no way I would even try it.


I'm kinda glad you're only saying it one time.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud*


Hmmm, maybe I should just grab a 955BE instead, and just throw it on this board.

Needs CPU-NB adjustments though







.


M2RS doesn't support X6?


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


M2RS doesn't support X6?


No







. Only supports 125w chips, and up to the 955BE.

I'm sure the x6's would WORK. But I'm not nearly brave enough to waste $200 on a CPU to find out.


----------



## dixson01974

OK. DFI is the best of the best for mobos, but most people will not buy DFI. Because DFI is not while know company. For the most parts people buy asus, msi or giga-byte.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *dixson01974*


OK. DFI is the best of the best for mobos, but most people will not buy DFI. Because DFI is not while know company. For the most parts people buy asus, msi or giga-byte.












There's PLENTY of 4+1 boards that are perfectly fine and acceptable. It's all about the quality....not the quantity







.


----------



## nzftw

Definitly alot of time put into this post!

Great to know my motherboard choice was a fairly decent one







(GA-MA790XT-UD4P)

Very reassuring. 
Thanks!!! +rep


----------



## dixson01974

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud*











There's PLENTY of 4+1 boards that are perfectly fine and acceptable. It's all about the quality....not the quantity







.


I blow up a Biostar TA890FXE, 3 MSI 770-G45 and others with ocing a quad core. All have 4+1 power phase. The only acceptable 4+1 power phase in my option is DFI mobo. I own 2 DFI mobo and oc a quad cores on them just fine.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *dixson01974*


I blow up a Biostar TA890FXE and 3 MSI 770-G45 with ocing a quad core. Both mobo have 4+1 power phase. The only acceptable 4+1 power phase in my option is DFI mobo. I own 2 DFI mobo and oc a quad cores on them just fine.


You're doing something wrong then. The Biostar board is a 4+2, and it should have been perfectly fine with a quad. I've seen that board handling x6's with ease.


----------



## dixson01974

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12516036*
> You're doing something wrong then. The Biostar board is a 4+2, and it should have been perfectly fine with a quad. I've seen that board handling x6's with ease.


The same cpu (955 C2 @ 3.7ghz) is work fine in another mobo just fine on a 6+2 power phase. With the same voltage and speed that I had it in my Asus mobo that is in my sig rig. So how did I do it wrong?


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dixson01974;12515993*
> I blow up a Biostar TA890FXE, 3 MSI 770-G45 and others with ocing a quad core. All have 4+1 power phase. The only acceptable 4+1 power phase in my option is DFI mobo. I own 2 DFI mobo and oc a quad cores on them just fine.


how did you blow up a FXE?

These things are like tanks.

Holds down 1.8v on my chips fine

(PS, it is actually 4+2)


----------



## The_Punisher

My board is 8+2, but I'm amazed I was able to run it at 4ghz 1.475v for 24/7 with no heatsinks on the mosfets (I have sinks now). I guess it really does make a difference, this is a great writeup.


----------



## xd_1771

Did you say Biostar TA890FXE!?








That's actually a _really_ decent board VRM-wise despite 4+2, but I could understand why you would be worried even if you are the odd one out that got blown up on. This is why I used the word "usually" in the article name. Nevertheless, as with all situations, it's going to have to go on the horror stories list..... perhaps phase count really is the issue after all, in addition to overall VRM quality?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nzftw;12515969*
> Great to know my motherboard choice was a fairly decent one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (GA-MA790XT-UD4P)


Big bonus points to you, it's also the board I'm using


----------



## dixson01974

Yes I did say Biostar TA890FXE. I booting it and install the os and boom it blow a mosfet on a stock speed 965.


----------



## xd_1771

STOCK SPEED!?
That is serious. Very.


----------



## Dissentience

Must have just been a bad board


----------



## pioneerisloud

Okay, so what board COULD I go with that's somewhat inexpensive (say $100 or less maybe), can handle 470's in SLI + single slot 240, plus a PCI wireless card? Even if its the SLI hack, I don't care.

Must support a highly overclocked 1055T too.


----------



## 4LC4PON3

im pretty new to this power phase stuff so can someone explain to me when you look at a motherboard how do you tell how many phases it has. Im trying to figure this out with mine what it is. I wish they told me even on the main website

http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=DfyAB26HiDpiiu8f


----------



## xd_1771

I'm not even sure if there is any
The M4A79XTD EVO fits the budget but is missing that last PCI-E slot for the 240 and has a vDroop
The P55 board is 4+1+1 phase... may be okay for i7s on LGA1156 which are 95W stock TDP only


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12516632*
> Okay, so what board COULD I go with that's somewhat inexpensive (say $100 or less maybe), can handle 470's in SLI + single slot 240, plus a PCI wireless card? Even if its the SLI hack, I don't care.
> 
> Must support a highly overclocked 1055T too.


3 PCI is asking too much for 100$. You can get a decent MB with 2 and 8+2 Phase power.


----------



## dixson01974

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3;12516656*
> im pretty new to this power phase stuff so can someone explain to me when you look at a motherboard how do you tell how many phases it has. Im trying to figure this out with mine what it is. I wish they told me even on the main website
> 
> http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=DfyAB26HiDpiiu8f


Looks like a 4+2 or 6 power phase. I don't know how intel calls it, but it has 6 power spots.


----------



## Dissentience

You can't skimp on motherboard cost/quality and expect so much


----------



## raisethe3

Could you take some photos so that we could take a look? Its pretty rare.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dixson01974;12516509*
> Yes I did say Biostar TA890FXE. I booting it and install the os and boom it blow a mosfet on a stock speed 965.


----------



## xd_1771

Correction: 4+1+1 phase. 4 CPU, 1 iGP, 1 IMC


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er;12516699*
> 3 PCI is asking too much for 100$. You can get a decent MB with 2 and 8+2 Phase power.


There's no decent 790FX or 890FX boards, maybe even open box in that budget range, that would fit all 4 cards I need (3 PCIe, 1 PCI)?


----------



## dixson01974

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raisethe3;12516721*
> Could you take some photos so that we could take a look? Its pretty rare.


I got a refund from newegg about 6 months ago and got another asus mobo.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dixson01974;12516509*
> Yes I did say Biostar TA890FXE. I booting it and install the os and boom it blow a mosfet on a stock speed 965.


probably a defective board


----------



## 4LC4PON3

here is a pic of my board. Just wanted to make sure i made a good choice for my i5 750. I do have it overclocked from 2.66 to 3.5 with no voltage change. This is all pretty new to me I just dont want to OC the board to far & fry the thing


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3;12516791*
> here is a pic of my board. Just wanted to make sure i made a good choice for my i5 750. I do have it overclocked from 2.66 to 3.5 with no voltage change. This is all pretty new to me
> 
> [imog]http://www.microcenter.com/images/shared/products/views/335792/671099_01_top_comping.jpg[/img]


it is fine.


----------



## Phaedrus2129

VRMs are power supplies just like your system PSU. All the same dangers apply.


----------



## dixson01974

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12516788*
> probably a defective board


I always had bad luck with Biostar mobo.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3;12516791*
> here is a pic of my board. Just wanted to make sure i made a good choice for my i5 750. I do have it overclocked from 2.66 to 3.5 with no voltage change. This is all pretty new to me


You be better off asking that question in the INTEL MOBO section.


----------



## 4LC4PON3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dixson01974;12516816*
> I always had bad luck with Biostar mobo.
> 
> You be better off asking that question in the INTEL MOBO section.


I figured id ask here since I noticed that all the Smart people were here.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phaedrus2129;12516806*
> VRMs are power supplies just like your system PSU. All the same dangers apply.


I think I'm going to quote this in the article


----------



## dixson01974

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phaedrus2129;12516806*
> VRMs are power supplies just like your system PSU. All the same dangers apply.


Not really. It help the ripple from the psu. There for helping the voltage to it won't do a vdoop.


----------



## allikat

Not all low phase (4+1) are bad, and not all higher phase setups are good. It is definitely about quality of parts and design that makes a good power circuit. Bad mosfets in a well designed circuit and with enough of them around can do wonders, and good ones in a bad circuit can pop just like bad ones.
And then there's the oddball solutions like the new Asus Digi+VRM design which doesn't use mosfets at all allegedly, but uses a different style of power circuit.

And on a side note, I'm in a similar position to Pioneerisloud, after an inexpensive board to run SLI and an overclocked quad... Tho I only have the 2 graphics cards to run. It's come down to ASUS, the M4N75TD or the M4A79XTD Evo... I'm actually thinking the Nvidia chipset board is the better of the 2, both have 8 phases and core unlocking, but only the 75TD has an 8pin power socket...


----------



## Varjo

Great post, this really should be more widely discussed.


----------



## xd_1771

75TD may not suffer from vDroop as much... that might actually be a good choice, even for Pioneerisloud.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Would be a fine board, if it had 3 PCIe lanes







. I could always use the 1x slot on top, but I'd have to cut into the board, and I'd lose any warranty that way







.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12517410*
> 75TD may not suffer from vDroop as much... that might actually be a good choice, even for Pioneerisloud.


still not known for its great voltages regulation.

Also has abnormally high DOA rate.

and nForce chipsets suck in general.


----------



## xd_1771

Abnormally high? Must be a misc. issue then


----------



## pioneerisloud

Fine, what about the ASRock 890FX Deluxe4? Open Box, its $130. It's got a great PCIe layout too.


----------



## reflex99

Higher than asus usually is.

It is kinda an oddball board.

The NF750-G55 is usually regarded as a better board.

EDIT: @ pio, it is a very good board. BUY IT NOW.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12517632*
> Higher than asus usually is.
> 
> It is kinda an oddball board.
> 
> The NF750-G55 is usually regarded as a better board.
> 
> EDIT: @ pio, it is a very good board. BUY IT NOW.


I'll probably have to grab it the next time its on sale OB







.

My plan is to pick up the board + DDR3 now. Use my Athlon for a bit and torture it (within reason). Sell my DFI + awesome DDR2, and get a 1055T.


----------



## reflex99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131363R

Perfect?


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12517716*
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131363R
> 
> Perfect?


Depends on which PCIe lanes I'd have to use for the 470's in SLI. If its both blue slots, I could use the middle for my 240. That would leave me the PCI slot under the 240 for my wireless card.

So if that's how it would work...then yeah, perfect







.


----------



## reflex99

for 3 cards, they are 16x8x8x

Should work like that


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4LC4PON3;12516840*
> I figured id ask here since I noticed that all the Smart people were here.


I LOL'd!


----------



## Krusher33

Suggestion: A short list of VRM coolers to get and where.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krusher33;12525776*
> Suggestion: A short list of VRM coolers to get and where.


good idea.

I added a short list to my thread:
http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/946407-amd-motherboard-power-phase-list.html


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12526639*
> good idea.
> 
> I added a short list to my thread:
> http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/946407-amd-motherboard-power-phase-list.html


Awesome! I did not see that thread yet. And I'm quite excited that my board is quite well compared to the others in the list.


----------



## reflex99

785TD-V evo is pretty good board.

Voltage consistency is not great (highish vdroop), but otherwise it is fine.


----------



## xd_1771

Two new horror stories today. One with a board we haven't seen before (NF750-G55) and one with a usual (870A-G54). Both running x4 955 at a conservative 3.7Ghz








List is getting long


----------



## Jolly Roger

Very helpful. Awesome. Thanks for the info.


----------



## fazio93

Is it normal for the chokes to get super hot while stressing? I was running IBT and touched the cpu mosfet chokes and they were pretty hot. Are these at risk of burning up like vrms? (i'm at 1.4v on load).


----------



## xd_1771

I'm not too sure how chokes would go - perhaps silently, but not with a big bang. Your best bet would be to put a small fan in that area - apparently fans/active cooling can help even more than heatsinks.


----------



## reflex99

chokes are very unlikely to die.


----------



## neo5555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12415904*
> See those big black squares called chokes? (They're inductors, basically like big capacitors that store and regulate power).


Just a correction...
Chokes are nothing like capacitors... They are coils of wire which "CHOKE" the current... in effect, they limit the current flow thru the circuit it belongs to.
They do not store any electrical charge whatsoever.

Cheers


----------



## amd-dude

Why hasn't this been stuck yet?...come on admins


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd-dude;12548651*
> Why hasn't this been stuck yet?...come on admins


this


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


I'm not too sure how chokes would go - perhaps silently, but not with a big bang. Your best bet would be to put a small fan in that area - apparently fans/active cooling can help even more than heatsinks.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


chokes are very unlikely to die.


I think they'll be alright. From searching on Google, I found that there are really no results showing people's chokes burning up, just people like me asking about how hot they can get.

A lot of high end boards also don't have any cooling on them.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *FerdinandII*


If they're "boxes", as in little cubes with 3-4 numbers on them, then they are inductors. Little coils of wire that act as filters to keep high frequency garbage out of the DC power supplied to the CPU. The thinner they make the wire, the more coils they can fit in the cube and the better the inductor (AKA "Choke") works at filtering out crap. But, the thinner the wire, the more it heats up as current passes through it.

Yes, they will get hot, but they are just passive coils of wire in a box. 
They are not VRMs, which are active devices with one or more transistors in them.
Don't worry.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *fazio93*


I think they'll be alright. From searching on Google, I found that there are really no results showing people's chokes burning up, just people like me asking about how hot they can get.

A lot of high end boards also don't have any cooling on them.


There are no boards currently on the market that have the chokes heatsinked.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


There are no boards currently on the market that have the chokes heatsinked.


Alright, that's good to know then. Nothing to worry about.


----------



## xd_1771

Second time I've corrected that but I'll take your words for it.


----------



## just_nuke_em

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fazio93;12547423*
> Is it normal for the chokes to get super hot while stressing?


Chokes dissipate next to zero power since the resistance of the coils is in the milliohm range. It is most likely picking up heat from something else.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12547852*
> chokes are very unlikely to die.


I would tend to agree.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *neo5555;12548357*
> Just a correction...
> Chokes are nothing like capacitors... They are coils of wire which "CHOKE" the current... in effect, they limit the current flow thru the circuit it belongs to.
> They do not store any electrical charge whatsoever.


You can argue that they store current. But the more accurate description is that they store energy in a magnetic field.


----------



## neo5555

Quote:



Originally Posted by *just_nuke_em*


You can argue that they store current. But the more accurate description is that they store energy in a magnetic field.


Well actually no, you couldn't.. simply because you cannot store current








But yes, you are correct.. they store energy in a magnetic field which opposes and "chokes" the flowing current.


----------



## mdocod

Wow.... 8 pages already.

Lets say we have a 4+1 design with parts rated to handle a maximum combined current of 150A, and the mosfets pulse at 1GHZ.

Lets say we compare that to an 8+2 design with parts rated to handle a maximum combined current of 150A, and the mosfets pulse at 500MHZ.

Which one is better?

HINT: The entire premise of "phase power" advertising is a gimmick because maximum safe current and switching frequency are not included. It's like selling an engine and only telling what the maximum RPM... What's the point?

More often than not, more phases are found on better mobos. I feel it is important that we do not judge a mobo by the number of phases or implied quality.


----------



## Disturbed117

isnt power distributed to each fets so the more fets the less load on each?


----------



## mdocod

Quote:



Originally Posted by *disturbed117*


isnt power distributed to each fets so the more fets the less load on each?


Having more pipes is great.... What if they are smaller diameter though? Does it really help?

Would you rather have 4 x 3" pipes or 8 x 2" pipes?

4 x 3" pipes would carry more water.


----------



## Disturbed117

you got me on that im no vrm expert


----------



## xd_1771

Fewer, smaller vs. less, bigger (though not necessarily) has always been cooler and safer to run. I'm thinking the issue you pointed out is efficiency, but that is often very hard to find info about. VRMs aren't like PSUs, they're never reviewed with such detail and it's sometimes hard to understand them.


----------



## xd_1771

*Fact: Situations from the past month of February and beginning of March alone have more than doubled the size of my horror stories list.

Fact: This is the 8th day in a row that there has been a VRM failure posted on this site. Many days featured multiple VRM failure events.*

Some things you guys might consider.


----------



## reflex99

FACT: the list is kinda big, so you should put it in a spoiler.


----------



## xd_1771

No.
I'm keeping it nice and long because I want the seriousness of this article to be in your faces


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12587952*
> *Fact: Situations from the past month of February and beginning of March alone have more than doubled the size of my horror stories list.
> 
> Fact: This is the 8th day in a row that there has been a VRM failure posted on this site. Many days featured multiple VRM failure events.*
> 
> Some things you guys might consider.


Could it be that they searched in google and ended up at OCN? It's how I joined, different issue of course.


----------



## konspiracy

Is my board okay with my unlocked quad overclocked to lets say 1.6v
also on the list you put my board as 95 watt but its a 125 watt


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *konspiracy;12588956*
> Is my board okay with my unlocked quad overclocked to lets say 1.6v
> also on the list you put my board as 95 watt but its a 125 watt


probably not


----------



## 56Killer

Nice info. Thanks xd_1771. Learning a lot of new things since I enter OCN. Good to know my motherboard is safe.


----------



## konspiracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12589028*
> probably not


Well i have a 80mm delta sucking air right over them. they always feel cool.
im thinking of getting these
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835708008
whatcha think Sparky


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12589028*
> probably not


Agreed, ASRock VRMs on their lower end/older boards are really cheap and probably run really hot i.e. not low RDS. Good VRM cooling may help though


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *konspiracy;12589136*
> Well i have a 80mm delta sucking air right over them. they always feel cool.
> im thinking of getting these
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835708008
> whatcha think Sparky


probably a good idea to add them


----------



## indus

This thread is spreading FUD.

I have this mobo http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3141#ov and it supports a 6 core CPU.

Should i trust you or the manufacturer ? Iam going with the latter.

No offence, interesting read indeed.Cant i claim warranty if the board fails?


----------



## xd_1771

6 cores are also 95W. Anything 125W I wouldn't trust on that board at all really, Gigabyte's lower-end cheaper 3-transistor 4+1 boards such as this one have a tendency to blow up that's not nearly as bad as MSI's but still pretty bad
I'd say if you do get it, stick with stock cooler & stock speed only


----------



## indus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12589382*
> 6 cores are also 95W. Anything 125W I wouldn't trust on that board at all really, Gigabyte's lower-end cheaper 3-transistor 4+1 boards such as this one have a tendency to blow up that's not nearly as bad as MSI's but still pretty bad
> I'd say if you do get it, stick with stock cooler & stock speed only


Ok, i didnt know 6 cores are 95w but some are 125 w too according to this http://www.gigabyte.com/support-downloads/cpu-support-popup.aspx?pid=3141

I thought gigabyte made good boards so i went for this one ,it was cheap too.I was hoping to upgrade later this year to a 6 core but i think i will stick with a 4 core phenom.I never overclock though.

Is it possible to get an official gigabyte rep on these forums for some clarification i wonder.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *indus;12589362*
> This thread is spreading FUD.
> 
> I have this mobo http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3141#ov and it supports a 6 core CPU.
> 
> Should i trust you or the manufacturer ? Iam going with the latter.
> 
> No offence, interesting read indeed.Cant i claim warranty if the board fails?


yea, you can claim warranty, but that is kinda a PITA to deal with.


----------



## Am*

Can someone please tell me if it's safe going to an 2.6GHz-2.8GHz OC or higher on my sig rig? The mobo I'm running is ancient and I'm not sure if it'll cut it for a crazy OC, but of a pretty low-power chip (59W max TDP at stock).


----------



## Velcrowchickensoup

4.1Ghz @ 1.42v, Its been running this way for months.


----------



## xd_1771

Looks like a 3-phase VRM.... but I doubt it'd have problem with a 59W processor even with slight OC


----------



## Kokin

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Velcrowchickensoup*


4.1Ghz @ 1.42v, Its been running this way for months.


But that is because your voltage is still within the safe limits (though close to borderline) of a 4+1 power phase board.


----------



## mdocod

I just went through all the links to failed VRMs...

I identified a whopping 6% (yes, 6%) of systems that were using a cooling method that replicated (or was using) the originally engineered cooling of VRMs through a down-blowing CPU cooler.

I identified 47% of the systems as likely using a liquid cooling for the CPU. Which completely negates proper cooling of the VRMs.

I identified 24% of the systems as likely using a rifle style cooler, which can significantly hamper proper VRM cooling.

The remaining 23% of systems I could not find any information regarding which type of CPU cooling was used, (no information given). I think it's safe to assume (looking at the trend), that most of these 23% of systems were likely on water or rifle cooling configurations.

Eric


----------



## xd_1771

Thanks for those statistics, I'm going to edit the article tomorrow and add some info on what CPU coolers can do for the VRMs as well. I always tell people that having a tower heatsink and unheatsinked MOSFETs is a really bad idea.


----------



## thrasherht

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mdocod*


I just went through all the links to failed VRMs...

I identified a whopping 6% (yes, 6%) of systems that were using a cooling method that replicated (or was using) the originally engineered cooling of VRMs through a down-blowing CPU cooler.

I identified 47% of the systems as likely using a liquid cooling for the CPU. Which completely negates proper cooling of the VRMs.

I identified 24% of the systems as likely using a rifle style cooler, which can significantly hamper proper VRM cooling.

The remaining 23% of systems I could not find any information regarding which type of CPU cooling was used, (no information given). I think it's safe to assume (looking at the trend), that most of these 23% of systems were likely on water or rifle cooling configurations.

Eric


very interesting. Thanks for the info.

I have water cooling, but I have air flow going directly over my VRM heatsink. So I think I am all set.

So from what you said it sounds like most problems could be prevented if they were to just get a small fan for the VRM heatsink.


----------



## mdocod

I suspect that proper cooling plays a large role in failure rate. I believe that many after-market cooling solutions hamper VRM cooling, and at the same time, create a scenario where the user is more apt to work the VRMs even harder.

Many of the mobos with 8+2 phases appear to have much more surface area worth of VRMs, this higher surface area means better heat management. Of course, the higher end boards are commonly found with heat-sinks on those FETs... Problem is, the heat-sinks don't do much good if the system is full water cool with practically no air flow.

There are a handful of down-blowing CPU coolers that perform plenty well for an overclocker to have some fun.

Examples:
COOLER MASTER GeminII S RR-CCH-PBU1-GP 120mm Sleeve CPU Cooler
Scythe SCRT-1000 120mm
Enzotech Extreme-X Rev.A 120mm


----------



## Croftie

Very interesting, cooling is a good point too. My D14 kicks out all it's heat directly at the VRMs heatsink. Not an ideal setup, I'm considering turning it around.

Do the VRM's have a dedicated temp sensor? Open hardware monitor shows 3 temp readings, temp1 is system, temp2 is cpu socket but what's temp 3?










When I saw 64C, I put a fan blowing through the backplate hole. That brought temp3 down to just a few degrees over cpu temp. Which leads me to believe emp3 is a vrm sensor, am I right to presume that?

If it is indeed a vrm sensor, what temp should I aim to keep it under?


----------



## Velcrowchickensoup

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kokin*


But that is because your voltage is still within the safe limits (though close to borderline) of a 4+1 power phase board.


My Crosshair IV Extreme should be here on Monday


----------



## Mortisangelica

I have a MSi 785GM-E65 With a 925oc to 3.3ghz should I be worried about the VRM's? Hardware monitor says the cpu is pulling 99 watts. Is the stock heat-sink fine?


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *indus*


Is it possible to get an official gigabyte rep on these forums for some clarification i wonder.


Pretty sure we've earned our way to Gigabyte's **** list for some uproar we've caused with their budget boards. One dude even linked his thread to Gigabyte's Facebook page if I remember right.

And I'm pretty sure we've had a rep from just about every manufacturer on the site at one time or another. Some we've become their favorites and some just don't want to deal with us anymore.


----------



## terence52

i am seriously thinking active vrm cooling is really needed even on mobos with 8+2 phrases for high overclocks with an x6. my m4a89gtd pro aint even 3 months old and yet on my 1090t @ 4.1ghz @ 1.45v. the voltages fluctuate is now from 1.48-1.6v idling..








haiz.


----------



## Am*

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


Looks like a 3-phase VRM.... but I doubt it'd have problem with a 59W processor even with slight OC


Are you sure it's OK for me to OC it to about 2.8GHz? It's a pretty major overclock for a S754 system.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *terence52*


i am seriously thinking active vrm cooling is really needed even on mobos with 8+2 phrases for high overclocks with an x6. my m4a89gtd pro aint even 3 months old and yet on my 1090t @ 4.1ghz @ 1.45v. the voltages fluctuate is now from 1.48-1.6v idling..








haiz.


I'd get a DMM and watch the voltage on the PSU if there's fluctuations with voltages.


----------



## Redwoodz

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mdocod*


I just went through all the links to failed VRMs...

I identified a whopping 6% (yes, 6%) of systems that were using a cooling method that replicated (or was using) the originally engineered cooling of VRMs through a down-blowing CPU cooler.

I identified 47% of the systems as likely using a liquid cooling for the CPU. Which completely negates proper cooling of the VRMs.

I identified 24% of the systems as likely using a rifle style cooler, which can significantly hamper proper VRM cooling.

The remaining 23% of systems I could not find any information regarding which type of CPU cooling was used, (no information given). I think it's safe to assume (looking at the trend), that most of these 23% of systems were likely on water or rifle cooling configurations.

Eric


 Finally someone see's what I see.I have been saying this since this issue came up.Add to that list a few mobo's that had improperly seated heatsinks(which can happen during shipping).For those with tower heatsinks like mine,a halo-framed pull fan(like the CM Excalibur and Enermax Cluster) mounted just above the VRM's will give a little extra cooling to keep the temps in-line.


----------



## mdocod

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Croftie;12593980*
> Very interesting, cooling is a good point too. My D14 kicks out all it's heat directly at the VRMs heatsink. Not an ideal setup, I'm considering turning it around.


Is the air blowing off that big rifle cooler really all that hot? Warm, probably, but I doubt it's like an oven or anything.

In looking at the picts of your mobo, it appears to me, that both the FETs and the inductors are attached to that sink. If your rifle cooler is actively blowing air at that sink, then that configuration should be pretty reasonable. If you have a case fan carrying air that the rifle cooler blows out the back of the case, and you turn the cooler around, then the case fan and the rifle cooler are going to be fighting each-other creating poor airflow around the VRMs.

If you turn the rifle around, make sure to turn the case fan around too, and choose another case fan to turn around to exhaust that air.

I would leave it alone or maybe make a custom little shroud to direct some air down at that VRM sink.

MOSFETs, inductors, and caps are often rated to operate at temps of up to ~100C or more. But without proper cooling, they can go way past that very quickly.
Quote:


> Do the VRM's have a dedicated temp sensor? Open hardware monitor shows 3 temp readings, temp1 is system, temp2 is cpu socket but what's temp 3?
> 
> If it is indeed a vrm sensor, what temp should I aim to keep it under?


I'm not sure what that temp sensor is. Check documentation about the board to find out. If I had to guess, it's probably a north bridge or south bridge temp sensor.

Eric


----------



## pjBSOD

This thread is very very true, great read & post. I'm a lucky one, a very lucky one. My rig now is a Phenom x3 720 @ 3.2ghz, usually floats around 30c because of a poor air cooler (Freezer 7 Pro).

Nevertheless, my GIGABYTE GA-MA785G a few months back almost went up in flames. My rig randomly shut off and I started to smell burning, I immediately knew it was my mobo because that model has no heatsinks on the VRMs. I ordered some copper heatsinks, put them on the mobo, and it hasn't had that problem since.

I'm just very lucky the board didn't burst into flames and I had to go into an RMA process and what not. VRMs are no joke, get yourselves some heatsinks if your mobo is low/mid end and it doesn't have heatsinks.


----------



## xd_1771

So it fried but didn't die? Interesting.
Gigabyte lower-end 3-transistor VRMs are really crummy


----------



## terence52

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krusher33;12595876*
> I'd get a DMM and watch the voltage on the PSU if there's fluctuations with voltages.


hmm, i have serious doubts about that the superflower voltage aint stable since @ 4.1ghz i can get thru furmark and p95 just fine.. but that have to wait till sat when my friend arrives to my place to test something out.


----------



## konspiracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12589189*
> Agreed, ASRock VRMs on their lower end/older boards are really cheap and probably run really hot i.e. not low RDS. Good VRM cooling may help though


Then on your list why do you say they are quality Vrms?
Your giving out alot of mixed info.
Is there a model number on the vrms? If there is we could tell which are the cheaper and which are more durable.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *konspiracy*


Then on your list why do you say they are quality Vrms?
Your giving out alot of mixed info.
Is there a model number on the vrms? If there is we could tell which are the cheaper and which are more durable.


They are pretty decent.

ASRock has a lot of boards, it is hard to keep track of them all


----------



## Chandlermaki

After reading this, I'm definitely thinking of replacing my 790FX-GD70. I'm nervous now.

Clocked down to 3.6 @ stock volts for now.

This could be my excuse to finally get a Crosshair IV.


----------



## xd_1771

This is why I added a "recommended TDP" column; though the quality may be decent despite things such as non-low RDS, etc. it may be good for certain TDP processors only with cooling.

In other news, a new *What VRM cooling will do for you* section has been added near the bottom of the article!


----------



## raisethe3

Thank you for all this XD!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12601596*
> This is why I added a "recommended TDP" column; though the quality may be decent despite things such as non-low RDS, etc. it may be good for certain TDP processors only with cooling.
> 
> In other news, a new *What VRM cooling will do for you* section has been added near the bottom of the article!


----------



## Croftie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mdocod;12598094*
> Is the air blowing off that big rifle cooler really all that hot? Warm, probably, but I doubt it's like an oven or anything.


At full load it does kick out a fair amount of heat and it's very tight round the back. I have two top and one rear exhaust but still the heat buils up behind the D14. I'm going to cut out the rear fan guard and put a higher CPF rear fan in before trying it turned around.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mdocod;12598094*
> If you turn the rifle around, make sure to turn the case fan around too


Of course








The shroud is a good idea.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mdocod;12598094*
> I'm not sure what that temp sensor is. Check documentation about the board to find out. If I had to guess, it's probably a north bridge or south bridge temp sensor.


Nothing useful in the docs. It could well be a northbridge sensor though.. let me set the scene,

I'm using onboard graphics with sideport memory, those are both cooled with a heatsink that's connected via a heatpipe to the VRM heatsink, cooling the rear of the VRMs with a fan lowers the temp3 sensor quite a lot. If it's a northbridge sensor then cooling the VRM part of the sink would in turn lower the temp on the northbridge part of the sink because they are linked with a heatpipe.

If this is correct then cooling the VRMs needs extra attention if using IGP linked to the VRMs with a heatpipe. I'm seriously considering getting a descrete graphics card and disabling the IGP.

Nice update xd. Thanks.

EDIT
What would be a good temp for temp3 if it's a northbridge sensor? Someone here has theirs up to 80C. Whatever it's monitoring those high temps worry me.


----------



## Koslov

Nice post. Would it be possible to form a list of good "value" motherboard


----------



## Cykososhull

Great read +1. You just schooled me on what VRMs are and how they work.


----------



## Catscratch

I'm using a 3 year-old k9a2 platinum v1(4+1 phase) and x6 1090t (125w), is it a timebomb now ? I even disabled Turbo Core in bios so it's 3.2ghz all the time. :\\

Thou I played WoW countless hours on Windows 7 with everything maxed, finished Bad Company 2 in 2 days. Not a single issue. :/


----------



## konspiracy

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


They are pretty decent.

ASRock has a lot of boards, it is hard to keep track of them all










Why did you put Bad quality vrms?
And what does 2 transistors mean?


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koslov;12609125*
> Nice post. Would it be possible to form a list of good "value" motherboard


Here's an idea of what to look at.
http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/946407-amd-motherboard-power-phase-list.html#post12462681


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *konspiracy;12611827*
> Why did you put Bad quality vrms?
> And what does 2 transistors mean?


It depends on their board. Most of their newer, higher end ones are good... older ones, not really. 2 transistors is the type of MOSFET design. MOSFETs usually have two transistors - high side and low side - and one or two drivers/transistors to run everything. Since there's only one transistor and no high side/low side, this is much worse for power delivery than even a 3 transistor design, which in turn (for high TDP) would be worse than a modern low RDS (on) 2 transistor/driver design. This is a detail I didn't add to the article, I want this to be short enough for everyone to understand but long enough to provide the necessary details.


----------



## OrangeSVTguy

This is a thread that should be bumped everyday









Mine was a EVGA SLI LE with digital 6 phase but with the PSU lacking OCP/OVP, it burst into flames when upgrading to a 970 and overclocking.

Using an H50 instead of the stock Intel cooler also brought up the temps of the VRMs since it removed the CPU fan. So I would suggest some type of fan for that area.


----------



## reflex99

I don't think that has anything to do with the VRMS

More of a PSU problem


----------



## xd_1771

I saw that lately







I recently added it to the horror stories list. I don't see too many Intel VRM failures around. That would be more of a 5+1 phase I believe rather than 6 phase, or perhaps a 4+2. I've recently addressed the fan/VRM thing by adding a new section to this article.


----------



## indus

Great information on this thread , but i personally feel the original post should be a little more neutral in tone.Right now it kind of seems to imply that MSI makes bad boards.

It is very much possible that a whole lot of MSI owners never post on forums.

Do you know one more thing that hits a mobo? Rust. I dont know about the America and Europe,but i stay near a marshland , and ASUS boards last the longest .The amount of sulphur in the air eats away the metal.

Right now iam on Gigabyte so ill report feedback after a few years when it fails.







.One thing very important i understood from this thread is that the stock cooler cools down the mosfets by blowing down air.I used to reduce fan speed thinking it only cools the proc but now iam going to let the fan blow at whatever speed the mobo thinks is right.CPU fan speed is regulated by the mobo am i correct ?

In conclusion,this thread just reaffirms the fact that heat , dust ,poor voltage regulation are the key reasons for electronic failure.My second highest rated component which fails is the graphics card.Its like a mobo as far as manufacturing is concerned.Processor,ram , VRM's and other similar components.

Is it possible to make a similar thread on the graphics card also ? My card failed recently.That will be great.


----------



## Toransu

Alright, so I took a look at the AMD motherboard phase list, and saw that my motherboard was not recommended for any overclocking at all. 125W was the recommended TDP, but my C2 Phenom II X4 is rated at 140W, and I HAVE tried overvolting and overclocking in the past, getting voltage up to 1.52 at one point. So far, I haven't seen anything grim or dangerous with my attempts, even when trying to stability test on a hot summer day (high ambient).

Have I been just lucky so far? Should I replace a component?

Hoping to hear good news or advice; I just bought a new hard drive for installing my benching/stability test OS just hours ago, and I don't want to end up regretting trying to get back into OC'ing.


----------



## TheRockMonsi

Toransu, you just have to understand that the chances of your board frying up are more likely than most. That certainly doesn't mean that 1 out of every 2 of your motherboards will take part in a horror story, but just be aware of the risks your taking in OC'ing your CPU - they're a bit bigger than most.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Toransu*


Alright, so I took a look at the AMD motherboard phase list, and saw that my motherboard was not recommended for any overclocking at all. 125W was the recommended TDP, but my C2 Phenom II X4 is rated at 140W, and I HAVE tried overvolting and overclocking in the past, getting voltage up to 1.52 at one point. So far, I haven't seen anything grim or dangerous with my attempts, even when trying to stability test on a hot summer day (high ambient).

Have I been just lucky so far? Should I replace a component?

Hoping to hear good news or advice; I just bought a new hard drive for installing my benching/stability test OS just hours ago, and I don't want to end up regretting trying to get back into OC'ing.


you *can* overclock, it is just highly not recommended


----------



## PyroTechNiK

Very informative, well done. +1


----------



## ocpokey

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Toransu*


Alright, so I took a look at the AMD motherboard phase list, and saw that my motherboard was not recommended for any overclocking at all. 125W was the recommended TDP, but my C2 Phenom II X4 is rated at 140W, and I HAVE tried overvolting and overclocking in the past, getting voltage up to 1.52 at one point. So far, I haven't seen anything grim or dangerous with my attempts, even when trying to stability test on a hot summer day (high ambient).

Have I been just lucky so far? Should I replace a component?

Hoping to hear good news or advice; I just bought a new hard drive for installing my benching/stability test OS just hours ago, and I don't want to end up regretting trying to get back into OC'ing.


It depends is the best answer. I myself am part of the horror story list now, so I know that it's real, but I still believe that it depends on your particular board and your particular usage.

For example I had a MSI 870-G45, cheapy board, and I tossed an unlocked x2 overclocked by > 1GHz and overvolted into it. I ran Prime95, I ran BFBC2, SCII, Crysis 2 (lots of 2s), I ran Prime95 + Furmark, and it never gave me any trouble. But then I ran LinX and it died within minutes.

So some people die without OCing, some people OC and never feel a thing. But as has been said, if something does happen at least you've been warned of the risks.


----------



## brewermoe

Just an observation but I don't see MANY ASUS boards(1) on that burnout list!!!!!!

(looking to push my 1055T on my M4A77TD to 4G!!)


----------



## ocpokey

Be warned that that list isn't really a representative slice of your probability of burnout. Danger boards just are more likely, and others less likely, but OCing brings risks. Reflex made a list of specific boards and their design and its relation to VRM problems

http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherb...hase-list.html

The m4A77TD is in the yellow.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ocpokey*


Be warned that that list isn't really a representative slice of your probability of burnout. Danger boards just are more likely, and others less likely, but OCing brings risks. Reflex made a list of specific boards and their design and its relation to VRM problems

http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherb...hase-list.html

The m4A77TD is in the yellow.


Hmph. I have a different view. Smarter buyers are smarter overclockers.









(puts on flamesuit)


----------



## xd_1771

I do recommend you add some form of cooling before pushing that 1055 to 3Ghz, those are okay/quality VRMs but are not low RDS VRMs and you have an x6, the most VRM-intensive/TDP heavy of all chips. Which means they could get dangerously hot.

I've added a small new point concerning VRMs and system efficiency.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ocpokey;12662481*
> Be warned that that list isn't really a representative slice of your probability of burnout. Danger boards just are more likely, and others less likely, but OCing brings risks. Reflex made a list of specific boards and their design and its relation to VRM problems
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/946407-amd-motherboard-power-phase-list.html
> 
> The m4A77TD is in the yellow.


XD actually did the ASUS part....


----------



## Krakatau

I need help. Bought the http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835708015 and a small 40mm fan for le mosfets. It was the only one I could get in my country. So ok, it didnt fit, had to sand about half a mill on the edges for it to fit.
Now my problem is since there are no holes, what can I use to keep em there.
After hours of no success what so ever, I just left the 40mm fan blowing ontop of them.


----------



## xd_1771

If it was the 880GMA-UD2H, it would've fit. However the VRM layout on the 880GM (not A) UD2H is a bit different, it recycles the old 3-transistor design from the 785G boards. It would not fit with the MST-81 as a result.
Edit: Actually even 880GMA-UD2H does not have the mounting holes


----------



## tehPwnzah

the second i saw this thread i put a 120mm fan on my fets and a 60mm blowing across the caps by the socket


----------



## Krakatau

So there is no way, like some stick compound used on the smaller sinks?


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krakatau;12669584*
> So there is no way, like some stick compound used on the smaller sinks?


You mean like this? http://www.frozencpu.com/products/10223/thr-75/3M_8815_Thermally_Conductive_Adhesive_Transfer_Tape_-_2_x_2.html


----------



## Krakatau

Meh my country is so limited in regard to these things, and none of the "big" companies will ship to us without incuring large postage fees that far excel the cost of the item. 
So I found http://www.commit.si/sl/virtuemart/2...x20x10-mm.html
Would this work? there is also a 0,5mm and a 1,5mm version. 
If that wont, I also found some VGA Acellero ram coolers there, if I cant fit that enzotech on .


----------



## Dissentience

I'm gonna link to this thread in my sig since it comes up so much.


----------



## Eagle1337

Hey I totally like to spam on other forums to get people to view this.


----------



## xd_1771

Some reorganization has been done. Another new section, "So what do I get and what do I not get?", has also been added.


----------



## Krusher33

Wow I haven't looked at the first page in awhile. Nice work.

By the way, get rid of "Well,..." at the beginning of each sentence that contains it. Just skimming I came across 2. The sentence will become more credible without it.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Krusher33*


By the way, get rid of "Well,..." at the beginning of each sentence that contains it. Just skimming I came across 2. The sentence will become more credible without it.


Well...actually the two "wells" you found are the only ones. sorry, i just had to crtl + f it.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *fazio93*


Well...actually the two "wells" you found are the only ones. sorry, i just had to crtl + f it.










Smart ___.

Same thing with "So, ..." I was trying to think of another word earlier and couldn't think of it. Happens when you try to avoid it for so long that it now becomes second nature.


----------



## Faster_is_better

Nice read. This should be stickied in both the mobo forums. I don't think this has really ever been noticed before. Most people just go with a motherboard that they know has OC options, right amount of pci slots, and looks good. Some of these finer details have become important to consider when building an Overclockable machine.

Thanks for the heads up for the community.


----------



## Dopamin3

I think you should change the title to "*Why VRMs are a big issue, and why to usually avoid MSI motherboards*" Even their boards with higher phases are susceptible.

I miss DFI







4 + 1 phase handling Phenom II @ 6.5ghz under liquid helium without breaking a sweat. Just goes to show you quality > quantity in all cases.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Faster_is_better;12693622*
> Nice read. This should be stickied in both the mobo forums. I don't think this has really ever been noticed before. Most people just go with a motherboard that they know has OC options, right amount of pci slots, and looks good. Some of these finer details have become important to consider when building an Overclockable machine.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up for the community.


Though you're right about what you said in most cases, for me I checked out HWBOT to see what boards had quite the success in overclocking and went with it. The board I ended up with had overclocks up there with the more expensive boards.


----------



## xd_1771

The thing about titling it that is that it angles the article purposely against MSI; even though we all know that MSI is bad, this really shouldn't be happening. Besides, not only MSI gets problems.

I will experiment with the wording of the article later today & tomorrow.

Quality > quantity in all cases... I'll have to argue against this. There have been a few quality 4+1 VRM failures in this thread; i.e. 1 BIOSTAR TA890FXE, and 1 GA-890GPA-UD3H. Most cases would probably be true, but "all" would be a big stretch


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12695516*
> The thing about titling it that is that it angles the article purposely against MSI; even though we all know that MSI is bad, this really shouldn't be happening. Besides, not only MSI gets problems.
> 
> I will experiment with the wording of the article later today & tomorrow.
> 
> Quality > quantity in all cases... I'll have to argue against this. There have been a few quality 4+1 VRM failures in this thread; i.e. 1 BIOSTAR TA890FXE, and 1 GA-890GPA-UD3H. Most cases would probably be true, but "all" would be a big stretch


So because there's one or two exceptions to the rule, that automatically means that those are now bad boards?









I used to honestly really respect you, and found this thread to be quite handy. But you are taking this WAAAAAY too far. If people buy a super cheap board with a crap 4+1 / 3+1 power phase, of COURSE they're doomed for failure. Hurr durr!!!!

But now, claiming that even QUALITY 4+1's are bad? C'mon man! You know better than this.

My Antec TPN came to me DOA (actually popped and smoked on first startup). Does that mean its a bad PSU? No! It means that I was unlucky and got the one faulty part out of however many good ones there were.

There's "something like" a 1/3 chance of a bad component coming to you (DOA or will die shortly after arriving). Live with it. The obvious poor boards are obvious.


----------



## Croftie

I was just about to ask about the GA-890GPA-UD3H failure because all I can find is one guy saying he killed it, with no details. I don't beleive you would add it to the list just based on that, could you post the full story or point me to it? because I can't find it and have the same board with a 125w hex that I'm overclocking.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12695692*
> So because there's one or two exceptions to the rule, that automatically means that those are now bad boards?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used to honestly really respect you, and found this thread to be quite handy. But you are taking this WAAAAAY too far. If people buy a super cheap board with a crap 4+1 / 3+1 power phase, of COURSE they're doomed for failure. Hurr durr!!!!
> 
> But now, claiming that even QUALITY 4+1's are bad? C'mon man! You know better than this.
> 
> My Antec TPN came to me DOA (actually popped and smoked on first startup). Does that mean its a bad PSU? No! It means that I was unlucky and got the one faulty part out of however many good ones there were.
> 
> There's "something like" a 1/3 chance of a bad component coming to you (DOA or will die shortly after arriving). Live with it. The obvious poor boards are obvious.


I think that he might of worded it poorly.

I think we was going for:

Yes, in general 4+1 is bad. BUT, there are notable exceptions, such as the UD3H, 890FXE, (M2RS), etc, which are all really good boards.

I could be wrong though. In my experience, xd has a pretty high opinion of the FXE, UD3H and MXRS boards.


----------



## Dopamin3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12695692*
> So because there's one or two exceptions to the rule, that automatically means that those are now bad boards?


I agree. If it's not widespread and only one or two users have it blow up on them, it could be: grounding issue, user error, faulty component, etc...


----------



## xd_1771

Quality 4+1 boards when/if heatsinked are usually fine for overclocks that aren't ridiculous i.e. don't pass 1.55V. However, doesn't necessarily stop a blow up if they're good quality; a few times some quality 4+1 boards have failed - including two of the boards reflex mentioned. On the other hand, I have never once seen an 8+1 or 8+2 power phase fail on any processor so far. Amount of phases/channels/inductors *can matter*.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


Quality 4+1 boards when/if heatsinked are usually fine for overclocks that aren't ridiculous i.e. don't pass 1.55V. However, doesn't necessarily stop a blow up if they're good quality; a few times some quality 4+1 boards have failed - including two of the boards reflex mentioned. On the other hand, I have never once seen an 8+1 or 8+2 power phase fail on any processor so far. Amount of phases/channels/inductors *can matter*.


Tator tot had a 870FPE fail on him....

8+2 board.


----------



## xd_1771

An 870FPE? I have never heard of that board before actually, but I think it is MSI. Is this situation recent?
You sure it was the VRMs? (I might confirm this with tator himself actually, he just added me on MSN, stating he would like to talk to me concerning this article. Sticky time?)

By all means, pioneer, I did not say that I'm against those boards, I will continue suggesting them where plausible. A quality 4+1 phase can hold up very well (though I usually recommend to keep below 1.55V). What I meant is that the amount of phases/channels/inductors *can indeed matter*, so by no means should this factor be ignored in board selection.


----------



## reflex99

870 *F*usion *P*ower *E*dition

And yea, it was pretty recent. We were talking about it in some news thread.


----------



## savagebunny

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


*Tator tot* had a 870FPE fail on him....

8+2 board.


But he is a ginger


----------



## reflex99

I don't even


----------



## xd_1771

That one just might be related to the use of those weird caps....
Or are they really better than solid caps, as advertised?

Those weird caps are used on a lot of MSI boards. I guess it's an advantage, they're compact


----------



## reflex99

the hi-C caps are fine, he blew a mosfet though.

subzero temps, at something like 1.45v, 4.4GHz


----------



## xd_1771

That seems pretty scary... perhaps the heatsink wasn't making contact?
Or APS (Active power shift) may have failed somehow
I can't help but think that the APS feature may be the cause of this at least sometimes


----------



## kzone75

Interesting and scary read. When I bought this gigabyte 770ta-ud3 a year and a half ago, I had no idea about any of this. (Actually I didn't know anything at all about computers back then). I've been overclocking 3 cpus with this mobo (all was running at 4.0GHz). Unlocked one of them. The one I have now is running at 4.3GHz (1.5V) 24/7 
So this thread made me order a heatsink for the mosfets. Just in case. Should get it next week or so...


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *kzone75*


Interesting and scary read. When I bought this gigabyte 770ta-ud3 a year and a half ago, I had no idea about any of this. (Actually I didn't know anything at all about computers back then). I've been overclocking 3 cpus with this mobo (all was running at 4.0GHz). Unlocked one of them. The one I have now is running at 4.3GHz (1.5V) 24/7 
So this thread made me order a heatsink for the mosfets. Just in case. Should get it next week or so...


you actually have a very decent board.

I wouldn't be too worried.

Ofcourse, extra cooling is never a bad thing.


----------



## PCCstudent

When I started ordering boards for OCing I did not take into account the VRM quality,technique,heatsink application.I just got lucky that all the boards were searched for with a "what is the best board" type of line in the search engine.I never used a "what is the cheapest board that can make the cpu simply run" type search. Now I know to check VRM quality and the wattage of cpu the board is rated for.


----------



## xd_1771

kzone75, an 8+2 VRM usually run cool enough on its own, though they can sometimes get fairly warm despite. Considering you run a 1.5V overclock, I guess that's up to you. I've known people with more strict rules on motherboards & MOSFET cooling than you or I.


----------



## Croftie

The 890GPA shouldn't be on the list just based on this http://www.overclock.net/amd-memory/961795-can-ram-hold-back-oc.html#post12686518


----------



## xd_1771

I'm awaiting a reply from redhat concerning this via PM now. I always look for the most info possible when possible.


----------



## thrasherht

My board is known for being an amazing overclocker, even when running extreme conditions, but yet some people don't know that my board has 4+1. DFI just did a very good job when they built this board. They used high quality parts and made sure they were heatsinked very well.


----------



## Tokkan

i saw this thread and after reading it left me quite concerned about my actual mobo
i havent checked if my desktop mobo is 4+1 or 8+2
if it is a 4+1 should i return it to the store and spend some more on getting a 8+2 board?
im planning on getting an H70 wc and overclock a bit
what you guys suggest? ty


----------



## xd_1771

It really depends on
1. what processor you have
2. what exact board you have
a. Board VRM quality
b. Amount of phases
c. Heatsinked?


----------



## Tokkan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12706625*
> It really depends on
> 1. what processor you have
> 2. what exact board you have
> a. Board VRM quality
> b. Amount of phases
> c. Heatsinked?


http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=870%20Extreme3
^thats my mobo.
ASRock Details- "V4 + 1 Power Phase Design"
and my cpu is an amd phenom II X6 1090T


----------



## reflex99

The extreme3 is a pretty decent board. I wouldn't worry too much about it.


----------



## xd_1771

It's heatsinked, that's a good thing.
I'd recommend keeping below 1.475V for overclocking but that's really it.


----------



## Croftie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12706162*
> I'm awaiting a reply from redhat concerning this via PM now. I always look for the most info possible when possible.


With all due respect, if there isn't any info it shouldn't be on the list. You've jumped to a conclusion a bit there. IMO "I killed x at stock" doesn't automatically equal VRM failure, more like faulty board or something else killed it. You should probably go through and remove the cases that have insufficient evidence, your more qualified than I otherwise I'd do it.

You've done a great job raising awareness on this issue but I feel your horror story QC needs work in this one case at least.

One thing I'm wondering is whether re-seating the MB heatsinks with aftermarket TIM is worth it.


----------



## xd_1771

Undetailed submissions have been labelled with "_[NOTE: Submission lacks details]_"; they're staying though.


----------



## Tokkan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12707086*
> The extreme3 is a pretty decent board. I wouldn't worry too much about it.


I have to thank you and xd_1771 on the mobo database that you got linked on your signature
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12707157*
> It's heatsinked, that's a good thing.
> I'd recommend keeping below 1.475V for overclocking but that's really it.


Gonna replace it thanks to you and reflex99
gonna get a new mobo i choosed out of the database also from asrock
890GX Extreme3 8+2 and heatsinked

once again thank you both:thumbsups


----------



## Croftie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12707797*
> Undetailed submissions have been labelled with "_[NOTE: Submission lacks details]_"; they're staying though.


In that case, I've got a socket a board that died at stock. You should definatly add that to the list







(was killed by a dieing psu)

Adding unconfirmed cases is irresponsible and the weight of this issue has seriously gone down in my book. It's your call though. When pointing people to this thread I'll warn them of the unconfirmed nature first.


----------



## xd_1771

Of the many situations submitted, very few are unconfirmed. The majority are.
A VRM failure due to a dying PSU would be more of the fault of....well... the dying/bad PSU. This thread concerns VRM failures due to CPU TDP & overclocking. That doesn't count then.
Since redhat's situation so far appears the most unclear and a decision-maker, I will remove that situation from the list pending confirmation from redhat. That is it for now. The others are staying since while details are lacking, it can be confirmed from reading that they are in fact VRM failures.

Anyways anyone want to help me convince NCIX that pairing the x4 640, x4 955 and x6 1055T with this board in combo deals is a very bad idea? (Maybe not so much the 640, but 955 and 1055T def). It seems a lot of people are purchasing.


----------



## pioneerisloud

If people are going to buy a combo with a cheap board, then they should know better. If they don't....well its their own fault for not doing the research.

NCIX is there to make money. It's not their fault that people buy low end $50 freaking boards, and try to overclock x6's with them. Overclocking isn't covered under warranty anyway.


----------



## xd_1771

Here's more info from redhat about the situation:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *redhat_ownage*
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> Tell me more about the 890GPA you blew
> 
> 
> 
> bought it, installed 1055T, it booted, clocked it to 3.5ghz 1.38V, never booted again.
Click to expand...

Not exactly stock speed (maybe voltage) but nevertheless

EDIT: Here's another link to it (scroll down to redhat's post)

It's not going to impose me from recommending this board (not that I recommend this board that often anyway), but I will be telling people to be wary


----------



## Croftie

Still, there's nothing to say it was the vrm's. It's just, it died, who knows why.

I'd be interested to know if he got a replacement and how that is going with the same chip/clock.


----------



## xd_1771

He's redhat, he hogs parts more than I do. Don't worry about him and parts.


----------



## wilykat

I'd like to add my mobo that went pow last year: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638481

I know, AMD forum but even Intel board can blow with gimpy 4 phase VRMs for the CPU.

ECS P55H-A and Intel i5 750, was running 4GHz at I think around 1.4v core. The mosfet were heatsinked at factory yet it still blew. I liked how the RMA told me not to overclock the board even though BIOS allowed overclocking till it blew. I used quality power supply that still works so it wasn't PSU issue.

They always smell awful when it burns.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wilykat;12738136*
> I'd like to add my mobo that went pow last year: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638481
> 
> I know, AMD forum but even Intel board can blow with gimpy 4 phase VRMs for the CPU.
> 
> ECS P55H-A and Intel i5 750, was running 4GHz at I think around 1.4v core. The mosfet were heatsinked at factory yet it still blew. I liked how the RMA told me not to overclock the board even though BIOS allowed overclocking till it blew. I used quality power supply that still works so it wasn't PSU issue.
> 
> They always smell awful when it burns.


So you blew an ECS board, and you're surprised?


----------



## ezveedub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12738281*
> So you blew an ECS board, and you're surprised?


OC @ 4.0GHz at that, LOL!


----------



## wilykat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12738281*
> So you blew an ECS board, and you're surprised?


First time ECS went bad on me. Just dumb luck I didn't get bad ECS board sooner.


----------



## Krusher33

Yeah, ECS boards... just no. One I had a few years ago: the PCIe slot went out but all other slots were good to go. I guess the GPU was a bit too much for it.


----------



## Dopamin3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wilykat;12738414*
> First time ECS went bad on me. Just dumb luck I didn't get bad ECS board sooner.


Were you running high overclocks with relatively high volts on the old ECS boards that didn't explode on you? I mean most low end boards like ECS are fine, just don't go crazy on the OC.


----------



## wilykat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dopamin3;12754109*
> Were you running high overclocks with relatively high volts on the old ECS boards that didn't explode on you? I mean most low end boards like ECS are fine, just don't go crazy on the OC.


I had AMD X2 5000 that I was able to get to 3GHz but it was a lousy overclock requiring a bit over 1.5vcore to run stable. At that time I didn't think ECS was the problem but that I had a lousy batch. If I kept that CPU I would have re-tested it on a different AMD board to see if I could do 3 without needing big Vcore.


----------



## xd_1771

ECS is known for not very good quality all around nowadays... much unlike 10 years ago


----------



## snoogins

Excellent read, very informative.

Question then. I have a m4a87t/usb3

How far can/should I push this board then? According to the spreadsheet, it says oc w/cooling, but doesn't have low rds.


----------



## xd_1771

You should definitely add MOSFET cooling before OC, because traditional d-Pak MOSFETs tend to get hotter.


----------



## snoogins

hmph, sad, but I'm glad I read this before it was too late.

After googling around, any suggestions for a cooling solution? First time I've ever heard about them and its a bit overwhelming with the amount out there.


----------



## xd_1771

You'll probably have to stick with something such as MOS-C1
Also, heatsinks can help... having a small fan there helps even more. Especially with the Hyper 212+ around, causing air to skip the VRM area altogether.


----------



## snoogins

Alright, thank you for the help. Guess its time to order some heatsinks, and to find a fan too lol!


----------



## snoogins

dumb last question, and sorry for the double-post but...
in the red is what we're talking about...


----------



## reflex99

yes


----------



## snoogins

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


yes


<3


----------



## Ruckol1

Now I'm worried! Is my mobo okay @ these volts?!


----------



## reflex99

yes it is fine >.>


----------



## Nickzorz91

Would the difference between a 12+2 phase and a 16+2 phase motherboard to noticeable or necessary? I'm looking between the P8P67 Pro and P8P67 Deluxe, I plan on staying around 4.5 GHz 24/7 on an i5-2500k.


----------



## reflex99

nope. Both are way overkill as it is.

For SB, you really don't need more than 6 high quality phases on the CPU to get a decent overclock.

even most 4+1 boards are fine for modest overclocks on SB


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nickzorz91;12763555*
> Would the difference between a 12+2 phase and a 16+2 phase motherboard to noticeable or necessary? I'm looking between the P8P67 Pro and P8P67 Deluxe, I plan on staying around 4.5 GHz 24/7 on an i5-2500k.


This VRM issue is blown far too much out of proportion here. My board is nowhere NEAR a 12+2 or 16+2 (I think its a 4 or 6 phase), and my board is just fine.

Quality over quantity.

Just like my old DFI LP DK 790FX board. It was a 4+1, and it would happily take a quad to 4.0GHz.


----------



## Dissentience

AMD power phasing is a bit different, which was the original focus of this article


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dissentience*


AMD power phasing is a bit different, which was the original focus of this article


If you would have read my post....my last rig WAS an AMD setup







. DFI LP DK 790FX, with a 4+1 power phase, that would EASILY take a quad to 4.0GHz.


----------



## xd_1771

Quality over quantity doesn't necessarily always apply. Though it is true, not to 100% extent - maybe 95%. A few quality 4+1 boards have blown as well. I do agree that the issue is blown out of proportion when you consider motherboards - pretty much all on the Intel side - with extremely beefy 16-phase or 24-phase that is often unnecessary. Heck, a Gigabyte UD3H H67 board has a heatsinked 10+2+2 phase or so, which is completely unnecessary given that LGA1155's max TDP is 95W, and you cannot overclock on the H67 chipset.


----------



## Dissentience

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud*


If you would have read my post....my last rig WAS an AMD setup







. DFI LP DK 790FX, with a 4+1 power phase, that would EASILY take a quad to 4.0GHz.


I was actually referring to this post. Sorry









Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


nope. Both are way overkill as it is.

For SB, you really don't need more than 6 high quality phases on the CPU to get a decent overclock.

even most 4+1 boards are fine for modest overclocks on SB


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wilykat;12738136*
> I'd like to add my mobo that went pow last year: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638481
> 
> I know, AMD forum but even Intel board can blow with gimpy 4 phase VRMs for the CPU.
> 
> ECS P55H-A and Intel i5 750, was running 4GHz at I think around 1.4v core. The mosfet were heatsinked at factory yet it still blew. I liked how the RMA told me not to overclock the board even though BIOS allowed overclocking till it blew. I used quality power supply that still works so it wasn't PSU issue.
> 
> They always smell awful when it burns.


ECS boards were and are crappy even at stock.
I m still wondering how they managed few years ago to be in the top mobo manufacturing.
I mean ,who bough so much junk


----------



## Volvo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;12777514*
> ECS boards were and are crappy even at stock.
> I m still wondering how they managed few years ago to be in the top mobo manufacturing.
> I mean ,who bough so much junk


You really want to know?

Acer is ECS.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/printpage/ECS-Factory-Tour-in-ShenZhen-China/169


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Volvo;12777580*
> You really want to know?
> 
> Acer is ECS.
> 
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/printpage/ECS-Factory-Tour-in-ShenZhen-China/169


The more you know!









Actually even I didn't know that


----------



## Buska103

I have a MSI 790FX-GD70.
Now I feel stupid for buying it, I'm going to want to overclock my 955 to around 4ghz when I get watercooling.... Funny thing is, my MSI video card is 6+1 phase, supposedly more phases than my MSI motherboard.


----------



## Volvo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


The more you know!









Actually even I didn't know that


Kind of explains their failure rate.


----------



## Kasp1js

Not sure if this is important, but I looked at my board(MSI 760gm-e51) and it seems that it uses Nikos P0603BD mosfets. (Is that bad/good?)

Actually i don't have anything bad to say this board, it's done everything I wanted from it. And it hasn't blown up yet







(even lasted at [email protected] for 3h of IBT)


----------



## xd_1771

NIKOS MOSFETs are common on MSI boards, and they're bad. Are you unlocked on the 555? If not, you should be well below the TDP limits; however at 1.6V even as a dual core I would begin to get worried


----------



## reflex99

Is it a possiblity that not everything made by NIKOS is bad? I mean, gigabyte knows what they are doing for the most part, and i'm pretty sure they woudn't put crap on their top of the line board. (G1.Assassin)


----------



## doritos93

ECS was awesome back in the day. I had a 60 dollar board that lasted me like 4 years. Thats value


----------



## xd_1771

Perhaps the NIKOS on the new Gigabyte board is a new revision of sorts?
Or perhaps the NIKOS MOSFET combined with something else is causing the failure


----------



## reflex99

maybe they make more than 1 mosfet line.

Similar to Power supplies. Kinda like how Cooler master makes some good power supplies, and some others that are total crap.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12783528*
> maybe they make more than 1 mosfet line.
> 
> Similar to Power supplies. Kinda like how Cooler master makes some good power supplies, and some others that are total crap.


Makes sense actually. Some HEC units are actually quite decent (well, better than others) but all of them are still pretty much bad, and the majority are really really bad.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Volvo;12777580*
> You really want to know?
> 
> Acer is ECS.
> 
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/printpage/ECS-Factory-Tour-in-ShenZhen-China/169










I felt this like a hit in my useless head









Regarding the Nikos mosfets i can say that we all know that there is a market of fakes in this industry so there may be fake/d Nikos overthere .It s quite easy to rename ,rebadge etc.
On the other hand maybe ,maybe ,there are newer Nikos manufactured from real silicon







A young brand like nikosem may be evolving.

My MSI KT3 Ultra2 lasted for 8 years beeing used like 14 hours a day in heavy usage ( as the Athlon Barton-s could ) and had not a single Nikos MOSFET on it









My humble opinion is that Nikos may be ok in areas were high ameperages are not needed , like driving a fan or something or some small chip.

I was astonished on how the VRM area heats up on my MSI 790XT-G45 compared to the Gigabyte 770-UD3 ,with the same "killer" CPU ,720 BE at stock









Maybe MSI engineers calculated the VRM-s for some other MOSFET characteristics and some moron in a factory decided to cut cost buy using those.

If you look at this AMD boards made by MSI you will observe they are also use ON transistors instead of Nikos or along them ,depending on the batch.

I have seen no ON mosfets burned on MSI mobos untill now or nobody that had them burned had not posted a picture.

So what gives if you only see Nikos burned in VRM areas ?!
They must be the culprit.

LE: I ve heard that capacitive loads on switching power supplyes outputs can overload them as well.
Maybe MSI engineers use to compensate vdroop "biger" capacitors on the VRM outputs ,
instead of using more VRM stages or a better quality VRM controller.
This may be one of the reasons they ve started using Hi-C cap ,the Tantalum ones.This capacitors have different characteristics and may help in avoiding overload when big capacitance is used.

Also mosfets have a frequency at which they switch properly.If this frequency is too high engineered so to compensate the lack of VRM phases ,they might start oscilating and make more heat.
Maybe this Nikos don t do well at specific frequencies ,like the ones MSI uses for their VRM controllers.


----------



## reflex99

But there is the possibility that they have another model. Maybe that other model is very reliable, and thus we don't see any failures here.

Similar to how Toyota makes more than one car.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12784188*
> But there is the possibility that they have another model. Maybe that other model is very reliable, and thus we don't see any failures here.
> 
> Similar to how Toyota makes more than one car.


In any case ,MSI quality control should of spoted this issues untill now.
If it didn t and they will continue producing this boards ,as they are doing now ,is bad for their bussines not for us.
I m extremelly curious on what will they do with the AM3+ boards.
Good brands usually react fast in such situations.
Gigabyte had issues in 2007-2008 and they seem to have fixed the problems.
I have hopes from MSI.
Time will tell.

A curious and skilled hardmodder could take a MSI Nikos mobo and replace the VRM MOSFETS with something better , just for experimenting.
I m sure the boards will behave better in such situation.


----------



## xd_1771

Gigabyte fixed their issues moving to ultra durable 3 - an all new low RDS (on) design. Some boards recycle the old VRM system though and they're pretty bad.


----------



## Phaedrus2129

Or everyone could just be nice little manufacturers and use Infineon mosfets so we don't have these problems.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phaedrus2129;12784625*
> Or everyone could just be nice little manufacturers and use Infineon mosfets so we don't have these problems.


I would be happy with Fairchild ,National Semiconductor ,Rohm or even ST MOSFETS








But reducing costs is the main concern for this guys ,not customer satisfaction.
If this boards last to much you would stop buying new ones and they wouldn t want that








If we would buy mobos dailly they would be more than happy.


----------



## sixor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12457372*
> Have any mosfet heatsinks on their sixor? Cheapo case makes me think warm ambient temperature and little airflow. To begin with, tower cooler + 125W processor + unheatsinked 4+1 = no air to mosfets = no way to radiate/move heat = overheat = omg I'm on fire! Not only that, the VRMs on the 785GM-US2H aren't of as good quality. There's one blow-up situation involving that board in my horror stories list, an x3 720 (95W stock TDP) at 1.6V and above blew it. Older Gigabyte boards before the recent ones with low RDS, Ultra Durable 3 and all didn't really hold up well without mosfet cooling.


no heatsinks on mosfets, and i usually play games with the case open to get better temps, so far i have

965be c6 3817
2400nb
stock vcore, stock vnb

still no blow up XD, i wanted to oc more by upping the vcore, but if 99% of people says NO you will destroy your country with that mobo, then i guess i should be quiet


----------



## xd_1771

sixor: I say bad idea. the 785GM-US2H has the same MOSFET designs Gigabyte used from 2007-2008 that were rather unreliable and failed quite often. Since you're also on a 125W processor and tower cooler which means that the entire VRM area isn't even getting any airflow, I suggest returning to stock right now or adding MOSFET sinks before ANY overclocking.


----------



## sixor

thanks for the advice but i will keep it that way until the pc blows up, but no more oc, stock vcore and stuff

has been running that way since nov 2010

for my next mobo i will make sure to get a better mobo with heatsinks


----------



## xd_1771

I knew ASRock's VRM quality would bite someone in the rear someday.
But the worst part is, this is an 8+2 phase power VRM that failed. The first ever to be recorded.

I don't think I can recommend ASRock again.... I'm worried they'll become the next MSI, with their AM3+ boards this year coming out and having visibly cheap VRMs


----------



## werds

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


I knew ASRock's VRM quality would bite someone in the rear someday.
But the worst part is, this is an 8+2 phase power VRM that failed. The first ever to be recorded.

I don't think I can recommend ASRock again.... I'm worried they'll become the next MSI, with their AM3+ boards this year coming out and having visibly cheap VRMs


Heh, I learned my lesson about VRM's from here

http://www.overclock.net/intel-mothe...-p55-gd55.html

Since then most of your posts and threads have really helped me fill in the blanks as far as knowledge and getting a better grasp on the understanding.


----------



## ZealotKi11er

My MB has 24 but they are very very small, is there a difference between sizes of VRMs. My P5Q-E has 8 big ones.


----------



## xd_1771

You mean the chokes? Big or small usually doesn't matter with the chokes.... they're not active transistors like MOSFETs


----------



## Davidsen

So, im planning on buying a MSI 890FXA-GD70 next month, but according to a post here:
http://www.overclock.net/hardware-news/720978-bit-tech-msi-890fxa-gd70-review.html

It has a 4+1 phase design. Could it maybe be "dangerous" for my cpu if i plan on pumping 1.5+v in it?


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12841531*
> I knew ASRock's VRM quality would bite someone in the rear someday.
> But the worst part is, this is an 8+2 phase power VRM that failed. The first ever to be recorded.
> 
> I don't think I can recommend ASRock again.... I'm worried they'll become the next MSI, with their AM3+ boards this year coming out and having visibly cheap VRMs


So because there was one isolated failure, that doesn't necessarily point to faulty VRM's, just a dud board, now you're going to not recommend an entire company based on it?









If that's the case, then I wouldn't recommend any mechanical drives, Gigabyte (which I don't anyway), Asus, XFX (which I don't anyway), Biostar, Intel, AMD.....oh wait, I couldn't recommend ANY computer equipment.


----------



## luches

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12844014*
> So because there was one isolated failure, that doesn't necessarily point to faulty VRM's, just a dud board, now you're going to not recommend an entire company based on it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the case, then I wouldn't recommend any mechanical drives, Gigabyte (which I don't anyway), Asus, XFX (which I don't anyway), Biostar, Intel, AMD.....oh wait, I couldn't recommend ANY computer equipment.


I gotta agree with this one.....Its unreasonable to stop recommending a product Just because of one incident !!! Failure is inevitable, and even the product with top-notch quality component have failures !!

I have recommended asrock boards to tons of people, and have yet to hear any complaints ( I work for a hardware shop by the way)


----------



## reflex99

xd, by your logic, I should be able to post this:
http://hwbot.org/community/submission/996029_leeghoofd_3dmark_2001_radeon_hd_4290_36368_marks

and the 890GX extreme3 is a good board again....

You should take statistics. 1 data point does not a trend make,


----------



## xd_1771

Well, I don't usually recommend ASRock anyway. It's not like this is going to throw me off the company altogether (i.e. if their boards take a sudden drop to become the absolute best-for-price, I'm going all in) but I will certainly be much more cautious about recommending them. The VRMs on their AM3+ boards do seem very visibly cheap, but I do certainly think they're a lot better than they used to be. And yes, this is in fact a faulty VRM. Complete with the pop, the smell, and the ability to run without the 8-pin plugged in.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12845527*
> Well, I don't usually recommend ASRock anyway. It's not like this is going to throw me off the company altogether (i.e. if their boards take a sudden drop to become the absolute best-for-price, I'm going all in) but I will certainly be much more cautious about recommending them. The VRMs on their AM3+ boards do seem very visibly cheap, but I do certainly think they're a lot better than they used to be. And yes, this is in fact a faulty VRM. Complete with the pop, the smell, and the ability to run without the 8-pin plugged in.


Sounds to me like a bad 8-pin plug. Perhaps it was loose and caused a short with the soldering points or something.


----------



## xd_1771

Bad 8-pin plug? That's a new theory. Only one way to prove this though and I haven't heard from him yet...


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12846924*
> Bad 8-pin plug? That's a new theory. Only one way to prove this though and I haven't heard from him yet...


bad meaning like it didn't get attached correctly during manufacturing or something like that.

Not the plug itself


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12846974*
> bad meaning like it didn't get attached correctly during manufacturing or something like that.
> 
> Not the plug itself


This


----------



## joelmartinez

informative article, what do you think of the asrock p67 extreme4 for going to about 5.1ghz? Will it blow?


----------



## Dissentience

xd_1771, while I very much respect your OP and your informative knowledge about VRMs and VRM quality especially regarding MSI boards, I do think it is a bit much to start condemning a certain brand of motherboard based on one isolated failure. I know it is easy to instantly blame ASRock's global VRM quality for this failure, but I think one must take into account the probability of failure for any given component regardless of the brand. Even high-end boards experience component failures, and it is likely that it is coincidental that this board happened to have a MOSFET of all things go bad. Again, xd, I thank you for initiating this informative thread, but lets all remember that failure of any component of any brand's product is entirely possible and a few isolated incidents do not lay grounds for a trend such as the MSI boards have formed.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *joelmartinez;12847140*
> informative article, what do you think of the asrock p67 extreme4 for going to about 5.1ghz? Will it blow?


It should be fine.


----------



## xd_1771

I know what you mean - the one on the mobo, not coming from PSU


----------



## reflex99

The way you wrote this post, makes it sound like you believe there is something wrong with the quality/type/brand/whatever of the 8 pin connector on all 890GX extreme3, when infact, the issue was most likely caused by a localized manufacturing defect.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12846924*
> Bad 8-pin plug? That's a new theory. Only one way to prove this though and I haven't heard from him yet...


----------



## xd_1771

Ah, sorry about that... gimme a break guys







it's Spring Break, I'm in quite a rush due to spring cleaning, some planned vacations, and numerous important projects I have to do..... not to mention the rather extreme lack of sleep lately
Quote:


> Only one way to prove this though and I haven't heard from him yet...


This part I meant about the person whose motherboard failed - all we know is that he smelled something but hasn't actually disassembled or looked at anything to check what exactly was the problem.


----------



## BWG

Finally started reading the other threads in your sig. This has to be the scariest of them all for me. All of those example threads!!


----------



## Kand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRo-1VFMcbc&feature=player_embedded[/ame[/URL]]

I guess you can add the GTX 590 to the list. I dont think this is caused by a mere driver issue.


----------



## Dromihetes

xd_1771 ,are there any 8+2 fakes ?!
I tend to belive there are some masked 4+1 outthere.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;12855075*
> xd_1771 ,are there any 8+2 fakes ?!
> I tend to belive there are some masked 4+1 outthere.


do you mean boards that aren't "truly" 8+2, because most are just split 4+1 phase.


----------



## ikem

i saw a 3+1 evga socket 1156 board out there... that just scares me


----------



## Dromihetes

I ve heard someone on some site that there are fake 8+2 like 2X (4+1) in paralel somehow.I mean they double each mosfet pair to get more amps ,but they are pulsed both in same time beeing practically 4+1.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;12855185*
> I ve heard someone on some site that there are fake 8+2 like 2X (4+1) in paralel somehow.I mean they double each mosfet pair to get more amps ,but they are pulsed both in same time beeing practically 4+1.


This is explained in the original post.
Quote:


> Some of you may get word about 8+2 phase basically being a 4+1 phase and not being true 8+2 phase. This is actually true, a lot of what I usually call 8+2 anyway just for simplicity, is actually something called 4+1 split; there are 4+1 channels, but the components (i.e. chokes, mosfets) are split as if they were an 8+2 phase; this is quite close enough to the quality of a true 8+2 phase on a reliable PWM controller. My own motherboard (the Gigabyte MA790XT-UD4P) would be a good example of this. Once again I usually call those 8+2 phase anyway just for simplicity.


----------



## xd_1771

Each GTX 590 core is powered by a 4+1 power phase. Huge problem right there because each core consumes some 150-175W+? This is why a lot of reference GTX 570s also fail in similar way.
I would advise against buying a reference design GTX 590 if going to overclock it


----------



## Krusher33

Either that or it was the wood screws.

(I know, I know, old joke is old)


----------



## Kand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12856096*
> Each GTX 590 core is powered by a 4+1 power phase. Huge problem right there because each core consumes some 150-175W+? This is why a lot of reference GTX 570s also fail in similar way.
> I would advise against buying a reference design GTX 590 if going to overclock it


Exactly. What bothers me is that people are looking at drivers for the reason behind the card's failure.










Though, it looks to me there are 5+2 phases per GPU there. I still wouldn't count that as enough with the GTX 580 originally having 6+2 phases.


----------



## xd_1771

No, an article has already mentioned it is a 4+1 for the GPU/GPU memory controller. The other phases are just for the RAM chips. At least they're Driver MOSFETs and not cheap 3-transistor designs or whatever, but that isn't necessarily a good thing (i.e. MSI 790FX-GD70)


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kand;12854931*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you can add the GTX 590 to the list. I dont think this is caused by a mere driver issue.


gonna guess that this issue is similar to the 570 problem
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;12855075*
> xd_1771 ,are there any 8+2 fakes ?!
> I tend to belive there are some masked 4+1 outthere.


it is called split phase channel, and it is still better than straight up 4+1
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ikem;12855164*
> i saw a 3+1 evga socket 1156 board out there... that just scares me


intel is different. Especially if we are talking about 775/1156/1155.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12856096*
> Each GTX 590 core is powered by a 4+1 power phase. Huge problem right there because each core consumes some 150-175W+? This is why a lot of reference GTX 570s also fail in similar way.
> I would advise against buying a reference design GTX 590 if going to overclock it


I would wait a while to make that conclusion. See if a trend occurs.

no need to start fear mongering just yet.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krusher33;12856339*
> Either that or it was the wood screws.
> 
> (I know, I know, old joke is old)


I laughed
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12856565*
> No, an article has already mentioned it is a 4+1 for the GPU/GPU memory controller. The other phases are just for the RAM chips. At least they're Driver MOSFETs and not cheap 3-transistor designs or whatever, but that isn't necessarily a good thing (i.e. MSI 790FX-GD70)


I think i am going to side with that one guy. I think that the GD70s might be decent for overclocking quad cores, but with 6X they are total failures.

(similar to how some boards, mostly 4+1, are completely incompatible with thuban.)


----------



## xd_1771

A trend is already occuring with reference model single-GPU GTX 570s and their 4+1 power phase or less

I think the issue with Driver MOSFETs is that they might indeed provide better, more stable power, but they have a stricter TDP limit.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fazio93;12855458*
> This is explained in the original post.


I thought "split" means 4 and 1.And when they aren t splited they get 5 phases together for both CPU and IMC ,one 5 phases VRM regulator for the whole CPU chip?!
4 phases for CPU and 1 for NB IMC = split 4+1
At least this is what i understood untill now.


----------



## xd_1771

Ah, the terms have been confused. The 4+1 being split into 8+2 thing should be properly termed "split channel", not "split phase" as with the 4 for CPU and 1 IMC.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12858163*
> Ah, the terms have been confused. The 4+1 being split into 8+2 thing should be properly termed "split channel", not "split phase" as with the 4 for CPU and 1 IMC.


fixed, my bad.

OT: i like being able to set custom user title....it is like a power trip!


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12858163*
> Ah, the terms have been confused. The 4+1 being split into 8+2 thing should be properly termed "split channel", not "split phase" as with the 4 for CPU and 1 IMC.


It s all clear now ,at least for me.


----------



## jacobthellamer

Why is mine not in the list?


----------



## xd_1771

The 890GXM-G65 one? I think it is on the list


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jacobthellamer;12862037*
> Why is mine not in the list?


Let s just be objective.
As i already said it in your thread, water into your motherboard is not MSI fault.
You were shorted there by water or no standoffs.
There is no way that a MOSFET ,Capacitor or whatever to do that.Maybe using 220 V wires directly would have created such a burn.

Water shorted some component to the heatsink screw ,which then shortened to the case.
Be fair mate !


----------



## xd_1771

So.... it was condensation!?
Eh, a lot of the other VRM failures I see look very similar to this and do indeed create scorching black burn marks..


----------



## Dromihetes

Yes ,but the area that burned is strange.It practically leads you to the conclusion there is some 3d party thing that made it burn.
This is my impression.
Would be good to know what PSU he had at that moment ,because any quality PSU would have turned off at such currents.


----------



## Maeda Toshiie

I was one of those clueless knobs who bought the MSI 870A along with a PII X4 955BE... I also got a tower cooler to do away with that stock AMD jet turbine. After reading this thread, I should a) get a new board, b) switch back to the stock jet turbine, c) get mosfet coolers, d) risk a fire?

Option a is not really preferred (since the board is only 3 months old). Option b is not good for my aural pleasure and I can't overclock, Option c is preferable but the risk remains and I don't think I can overclock even with them?

Incidentally, the MSI BIOS has the CPU voltage set at 1.5V. The CPU voltage stepping is also ridiculously irregular so I only reduced it to 1.352V. I originally intended to play with some overclocking but looks like it isn't going to fly with this mobo.

Rant: I bought an overclocking CPU with a board with overclocking "features" but won't survive overclocking. Talk about ironic...


----------



## Phaedrus2129

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;12864431*
> Let s just be objective.
> As i already said it in your thread, water into your motherboard is not MSI fault.
> You were shorted there by water or no standoffs.
> There is no way that a MOSFET ,Capacitor or whatever to do that.Maybe using 220 V wires directly would have created such a burn.
> 
> Water shorted some component to the heatsink screw ,which then shortened to the case.
> Be fair mate !


No, that looks like a Mosfet cooking off, fried shorted.


----------



## thrasherht

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phaedrus2129;12878038*
> No, that looks like a Mosfet cooking off, fried shorted.


GOD has spoken!!


----------



## xd_1771

The 870A-G54 does have MOSFET coolers. They're quite useless.

On the other hand, I just found a site with a whole bunch of GTX 590 fail links. Going to add them individually now to really show everyone that overclocking reference design GTX 590s are as bad as overclocking Phenom II 125Ws on a 2009-2010 released MSI board. This is a trend I predicted when I first heard they would have 4+1 phase per core... looks like it is happening.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12878577*
> The 870A-G54 does have MOSFET coolers. They're quite useless.
> 
> On the other hand, I just found a site with a whole bunch of GTX 590 fail links. Going to add them individually now to really show everyone that overclocking reference design GTX 590s are as bad as overclocking Phenom II 125Ws on a 2009-2010 released MSI board. This is a trend I predicted when I first heard they would have 4+1 phase per core... looks like it is happening.


maybe add them in a spoiler or something? The post is getting kinda big/crowded


----------



## xd_1771

The failures are sorted by date. The size is supposed to help make a point. I'm considering redoing the list into a properly sized table though (i.e. a google table?)


----------



## Anton338

Thank you OP! +
I can't stress the importance of nice clean power flowing to your computer. haha

Ive got a few questions tho
My friend just got a 2600K and wants to get it to 5Ghz.

He originally picked the MSI C43
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130571
But it doesnt even have a heatsink on any of the vrm.

So after I told him "more power phases, bro" he buys the GIGABYTE GA-P67A-UD3-B3
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128476

I would be the one guiding him through this overclock so.. should I watch out for any sparks? Does OCN think I'll get to 5Ghz?


----------



## Kand

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anton338;12879088*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you OP! +
> I can't stress the importance of nice clean power flowing to your computer. haha
> 
> Ive got a few questions tho
> My friend just got a 2600K and wants to get it to 5Ghz.
> 
> He originally picked the MSI C43
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130571
> But it doesnt even have a heatsink on any of the vrm.
> 
> So after I told him "more power phases, bro" he buys the GIGABYTE GA-P67A-UD3-B3
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128476
> 
> I would be the one guiding him through this overclock so.. should I watch out for any sparks? Does OCN think I'll get to 5Ghz?


Err. For 130 bucks? I would have gone with:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131705&cm_re=asus_P67-_-13-131-705-_-Product at least.

He wont get 5Ghz on that board you linked him, I dont think that it's even going to get him past 4.


----------



## reflex99

Yea, you won't get 5GHz out of the C43, but it should do fine as long as you keep your overclock modest.

MSI Intel VRM>MSI AMD


----------



## xd_1771

A whole bunch more from hardforum are about to be added. But one particular one of note I would think is this one. The failure took out both the motherboard and the CPU. *and the CPU*. Looks like CPUs being killed due to fried VRMs is not impossible.


----------



## reflex99

Are there any cases or reasonably clocked/volted X4's killing GD70/other MSI 4+1 boards?

i am thinking of getting a GD70+955, to see if i can kill it with dice.


----------



## xd_1771

I actually only have one posted with an 890FXA... (ask johnny.dot.exe for more details), but I do know it was somewhat of a trend with the old 790FX board and the x4 if you passed 1.5V for 24/7 OC

Meanwhile I just registered at hardforum, I'll be addressing them by linking them to the article here and perhaps providing assistance when necessary. It seems a lot of failures happen/are reported over there...

EDIT: Check this one out. A Jetway board blew in what was described as "failed choke". That's right, a smoking choke, not a MOSFET. This is definitely something new... I never even thought chokes could overheat and fail

I also just found out something about ASUS boards based on a recent post here on OCN and ones back on hardforum. They feature much better protection techniques. Once MOSFET temperatures are past a certain point (not CPU temps), the CPU throttles and/or the board shuts off. Looks like that's why I have never seen any ASUS VRM failure so far. However, that's still not to say that all ASUS VRMs are capable of pushing 125W.


----------



## reflex99

Analyzing the list, i would say that it is more of a problem with 4+1 boards, and Thuban processors.

Just from looking over it, all of them are X6's except for 1.

Then, there are the 3+1 boards, which seem to like to fail with whatever they feel like.


----------



## reflex99

ok, I pm'd johnny, and he had some interesting infomation:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *johnny.dot.exe*
> My system specs are in my sig, only the board has changed. Fried two MSI 890fx, then finally went for the Crosshair IV and couldn't be happier with it.
> 
> Basically, all I did was increase the cpu voltage to 1.45v and the multiplier to 20.0x. As you can see, this is a rather conservative overclock for the type of gear I'm running, and shouldn't be anything that would fry a board under normal circumstances. Any OC extras, power savers safestepping, emp protection, etc were all disabled before overclocking per the norm.
> 
> When I would get around to running a CPU stress test, such as Prime95, some time in to the test my rig would just shut down. Upon trying to turn it back on, the lights/fans would just flicker. I unplugged the 12v CPU rail from the board, and the system would power(lights/fans/etc), just wouldn't boot obviously. RMA'd the board through newegg and they confirmed whatever the power went through before it hit the CPU...the VRMs/MOSFETs/whatever they're called...were fried. Same exact thing happened on the replacement board, under the same settings and everything. Newegg refunded my money outside of m 30day policy with them, which I used to get the crosshair. New board has been running great on the same exact overclock for almost 6 months now.


(this is with a phenom X4 965 BE, 890FXA-GD70, TX850 PSU)

very strange, that voltage is pretty low.


----------



## xd_1771

VRM]https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Avoxk_HEpJEbdDYyU3BOenBQRWhSdkpKejFwQzBUTXc&w=100&h=550]VRM failures:[/URL]
So this is the new Google Spreadsheet I am working on for the horror stories list of this page. As you can imagine, transferring it all over to Google Spreadsheet is a painfully miserable and long task


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12892982*
> A whole bunch more from hardforum are about to be added. But one particular one of note I would think is this one. The failure took out both the motherboard and the CPU. *and the CPU*. Looks like CPUs being killed due to fried VRMs is not impossible.


Umm durr. We went over this before. When my Gigabyte 3+1 blew out, it took my CPU, RAM, and PSU out with it. I'm LUCKY that's all that died with it.


----------



## xd_1771

Actually VRM failures taking out other parts is usually uncommon (statistically at least)


----------



## reflex99

xd, are you a time traveler?

If you are, we should warn dixson01974 that his VRMs are going to fail on September 1st 2011.










You kids and your non-american date writing ways.


----------



## xd_1771

Whoops, I wrote it wrong there








But if I did time travel, I wonder what VRM failures I would see... perhaps I'd get a nice sneak peak at all the failures happening with the 125W AM3+ 8 cores








Actually with the majority of CPUs people are going to buy on AM3+ being closer to the lower TDP of 95W (i.e. the 4-core or 6-core variant - speaking strictly of cores, not modules), I think the VRM issue will fade a little and quality 4+1s like what Gigabyte is doing with some new boards will become a norm


----------



## reflex99

I think that the main issue with current boards that they they are based on designs for 4 core processors, when X6 processors are much more strenuous on the VrMs.


----------



## xd_1771

Yes indeed. 4 module/8 core will be expected to be even more strenuous, but the improvements of 32nm and module-based architecture should really drive down the TDP very nicely to the point where it'll be a long way to go before it becomes an issue again.
It does make sense anyway... 4+1 phase... 1 phase per core, 1 for IMC; meanwhile it's a bit different splitting 4 CPU phases to 6 cores


----------



## Phaedrus2129

Phases v. Cores does not matter in the slightest, the power all goes to the same place. A multi-phase buck converter still has only one output.









Multiphase synchronous buck converter, which is what is used in motherboard and GPU VRMs.


----------



## Lucky 13 SpeedShop

Long time lurker, and this thread convinced me to join. I'll be checking back with this thread once the AM3+ boards hit retailers for sure. Hopefully my 890GXM-G65 & 965 holds out that long. Thanks for the info guys


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phaedrus2129;12897352*
> Phases v. Cores does not matter in the slightest, the power all goes to the same place. A multi-phase buck converter still has only one output.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiphase synchronous buck converter, which is what is used in motherboard and GPU VRMs.


Yes, but the X6 might be more strenuous, with turbo core, and stuff like that, constantly upping, and lowering voltages. Might mess with VRMs some.

It is just strange because all but one of the failures on the 890FXA-GD70 are with X6s.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


Yes, but the X6 might be more strenuous, with turbo core, and stuff like that, constantly upping, and lowering voltages. Might mess with VRMs some.

It is just strange because all but one of the failures on the 890FXA-GD70 are with X6s.


If you're referring to the Hardforum, I do believe that was the original point of that thread... the fact that x6's were taking out boards. It just sort of evolved in to VRM failures.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krusher33;12900998*
> If you're referring to the Hardforum, I do believe that was the original point of that thread... the fact that x6's were taking out boards. It just sort of evolved in to VRM failures.


not sure what you are referring to here.

Link?


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


not sure what you are referring to here.

Link?


Talking about the thread xd linked? Title is "Post here if your board killed by Phenom II x6" or something like that.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


A whole bunch more from hardforum are about to be added. But one particular one of note I would think is this one. The failure took out both the motherboard and the CPU. *and the CPU*. Looks like CPUs being killed due to fried VRMs is not impossible.


Link to the actual thread instead of just the one post xd linked: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1524927


----------



## Volvo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dromihetes*









I felt this like a hit in my useless head









Regarding the Nikos mosfets i can say that we all know that there is a market of fakes in this industry so there may be fake/d Nikos overthere .It s quite easy to rename ,rebadge etc.
On the other hand maybe ,maybe ,there are newer Nikos manufactured from real silicon







A young brand like nikosem may be evolving.

My MSI KT3 Ultra2 lasted for 8 years beeing used like 14 hours a day in heavy usage ( as the Athlon Barton-s could ) and had not a single Nikos MOSFET on it









*My humble opinion is that Nikos may be ok in areas were high ameperages are not needed , like driving a fan or something or some small chip.*

I was astonished on how the VRM area heats up on my MSI 790XT-G45 compared to the Gigabyte 770-UD3 ,with the same "killer" CPU ,720 BE at stock









Maybe MSI engineers calculated the VRM-s for some other MOSFET characteristics and some moron in a factory decided to cut cost buy using those.

If you look at this AMD boards made by MSI you will observe they are also use ON transistors instead of Nikos or along them ,depending on the batch.

I have seen no ON mosfets burned on MSI mobos untill now or nobody that had them burned had not posted a picture.

So what gives if you only see Nikos burned in VRM areas ?!
They must be the culprit.

LE: I ve heard that capacitive loads on switching power supplyes outputs can overload them as well.
Maybe MSI engineers use to compensate vdroop "biger" capacitors on the VRM outputs ,
instead of using more VRM stages or a better quality VRM controller.
This may be one of the reasons they ve started using Hi-C cap ,the Tantalum ones.This capacitors have different characteristics and may help in avoiding overload when big capacitance is used.

Also mosfets have a frequency at which they switch properly.If this frequency is too high engineered so to compensate the lack of VRM phases ,they might start oscilating and make more heat.
Maybe this Nikos don t do well at specific frequencies ,like the ones MSI uses for their VRM controllers.


Refer to my thread.

http://www.overclock.net/intel-mothe...ts-my-r2g.html

Nikos can't drive a fan safely.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Phaedrus2129*


Phases v. Cores does not matter in the slightest, the power all goes to the same place. A multi-phase buck converter still has only one output.









Multiphase synchronous buck converter, which is what is used in motherboard and GPU VRMs.


If they're all getting the same power, why is it only one VRM blows? Asking out of curiosity.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krusher33;12901080*
> If they're all getting the same power, why is it only one VRM blows? Asking out of curiosity.


I could be wrong on this, its been far too long since I took electronics classes, and I only remember bits and pieces....

I believe the mosfets are just like resistors, in the sense that they have a certain tolerance level. No 2 mosfets will be EXACTLY identical. Just like no 2 resistors will be EXACTLY identical.

So mosfet 1 might pop at say 130*C. mosfet 2 @ 133*C. mosfet 3 @ 131*C. mosfet 4 @ 140*C

Just as an example, and using temperatures as the reference here.

That means that mosfet 1 would be the one to pop first, assuming the temperatures didn't pass 131*C as well, which would cause 1 and 3 to pop.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;12901116*
> I could be wrong on this, its been far too long since I took electronics classes, and I only remember bits and pieces....
> 
> I believe the mosfets are just like resistors, in the sense that they have a certain tolerance level. No 2 mosfets will be EXACTLY identical. Just like no 2 resistors will be EXACTLY identical.
> 
> So mosfet 1 might pop at say 130*C. mosfet 2 @ 133*C. mosfet 3 @ 131*C. mosfet 4 @ 140*C
> 
> Just as an example, and using temperatures as the reference here.
> 
> That means that mosfet 1 would be the one to pop first, assuming the temperatures didn't pass 131*C as well, which would cause 1 and 3 to pop.


If you're right about this, does this mean that mobo makers are getting mosfets that aren't rated at what they thought they should be? They design these boards with these things in mind right? And they probably do assume that it won't meet its rating and so they take the safe route but still end up with mosfets worst than they anticipated?


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Krusher33*


If you're right about this, does this mean that mobo makers are getting mosfets that aren't rated at what they thought they should be? They design these boards with these things in mind right? And they probably do assume that it won't meet its rating and so they take the safe route but still end up with mosfets worst than they anticipated?


I was just using a generic example. I don't know what mosfets are actually rated for, or remember what they do exactly. So don't read more into what I said, than what I said. I was just trying to point out that there's certain tolerances between electronic components, and if ONE part is of a lower tolerance than the rest, it could be the one that pops.


----------



## Krusher33

I understand. I'm just thinking hypothetically if you're on the right track that one mosfet blew because it was actually rated lower than the others. When in fact the engineers probably accounted for this but that mosfet was probably worst than they anticipated.

In other words, poor QA's done on the mosfets.


----------



## schuman0

Awesome! great job man!


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Krusher33*


I understand. I'm just thinking hypothetically if you're on the right track that one mosfet blew because it was actually rated lower than the others. When in fact the engineers probably accounted for this but that mosfet was probably worst than they anticipated.

In other words, poor QA's done on the mosfets.


It's more the fact that there's not enough, or they're buying cheap parts instead of quality parts. That's my guess.


----------



## Phaedrus2129

Only time a part won't meet its rated specifications is when you're buying from no-name scam companies. I don't know transistors very well, but in the realm of capacitors you can expect any given Fuhjyyu or CapXon or Canicon capacitor to only have about 80%+/-10% of its rated capacitance, have a much lower temperature tolerance, and be more sensitive to ripple than the mfr. claims. Whereas an NCC, Hitachi, or Panasonic capacitor should meet or exceed the rated specifications in all ways.


----------



## Blameless

Most boards are over-engineered to some degree.

If that level of over engineering does not match the increased power demands from OCing, or if cooling does not keep up, you'll likely run into issues in short order.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Krusher33*


If they're all getting the same power, why is it only one VRM blows? Asking out of curiosity.


Weakest link in the chain.

There are small variations in each and every driver, fet, and choke, as well as board hotspots that can influence failure rate.

I've never seen every link in a chain fail at once, even when each link was speced the same.


----------



## linkin93

To be honest, you jumped to conclusions in the thread about the ASRock 880G board, and I'm not just saying that because I own one, but because with this CPU overclock it draws 150w+ on its own, and has been doing so for months. I frequently stress test as well.

I honestly think he just a dud board.

You can't just say to avoid that board or entire company because *one* of their boards pop. I haven't seen any other pop, and mine hasn't popped either









Their lower end boards are an entirely different story though.


----------



## Phaedrus2129

I don't think an Athlon II X4 will draw 150W on its own. Total platform draw, maybe, but that sounds like a figure for an X6.


----------



## Redwoodz

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


I actually only have one posted with an 890FXA... (ask johnny.dot.exe for more details), but I do know it was somewhat of a trend with the old 790FX board and the x4 if you passed 1.5V for 24/7 OC

Meanwhile I just registered at hardforum, I'll be addressing them by linking them to the article here and perhaps providing assistance when necessary. It seems a lot of failures happen/are reported over there...

EDIT: Check this one out. A Jetway board blew in what was described as "failed choke". That's right, a smoking choke, not a MOSFET. This is definitely something new... I never even thought chokes could overheat and fail

I also just found out something about ASUS boards based on a recent post here on OCN and ones back on hardforum. They feature much better protection techniques. Once MOSFET temperatures are past a certain point (not CPU temps), the CPU throttles and/or the board shuts off. Looks like that's why I have never seen any ASUS VRM failure so far. However, that's still not to say that all ASUS VRMs are capable of pushing 125W.


Hmm,back in dec. of 09 I had a Jetway 890 board paired with an Athlon 240 in for testing.Running AMD overdrive's auto feature-the board blew at around 223 ref. clock.Took the CPU with it.Same thing,would power on,fans spin,no post.That's a 65w dual core







.I wish I would have pulled the heatsink off and checked the VRM's.Sent the board back-I still have the CPU sitting in it's box.It is nice to see the community is finally getting to the bottom of this problem.


----------



## xd_1771

Well, that Jetway board example I found did feature smoke.
I'm not listing your issue down in the horror stories list due to no actual confirmation that it was the VRMs, but I'm definitely going to watch jetway boards with a cautious eye.


----------



## xd_1771

Going through my VRM horror stories list to import into the new table, I found this for you reflex99:
890FXA-GD70 failed with x4 - looks like stock speed too. Boots without CPU power connector in, so definitely a VRM failure.
It was listed as "unknown processor" in my list but it turns out the guy had updated the post after I listed it


----------



## reflex99

This could be a really interesting experiment.

Can't wait to get one of these and throw it under dice.


----------



## FreeWillzyx

definitely reading all of this later.


----------



## doritos93

Hey xd_1771, I just noticed your compilation in the OP of failed VRMs. I used to have a MA770 something from Gigabtye who's VRMS died on me out of nowhere. I even think I started a thread or two.


----------



## Princess Garnet

Excellent thread!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12415904*
> *A list of all AMD motherboards with detailed VRM information including quality/amount of phases can be found here.*


Is there anything like this for Intel boards? How do you find out how many phases your board has? I'd like to learn more about mine.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Princess Garnet;12907770*
> Excellent thread!Is there anything like this for Intel boards? How do you find out how many phases your board has? I'd like to learn more about mine.


I haven't got arround to making a list for intel yet, and probably never will, since i don't know much about them.

in most cases, you can count the chokes (square cube things next to the mosfets)

On current intel boards there are a few different configurations.

For chipsets with graphics passthru (H67, H61, H55, H57, Q57, etc.) they are CPU CORE+IMC/QPI+GPU

So this board for example:









Has 5 chokes, indicating 5 phases. 3 for the CPU, 1 for the IMC/QPI, and one for the IGP. It would be refered to as 3+1+1.

For chipsets without an IGP passthru (P67, P55, X58, AM3, AM2+, 939, etc.), it is the same, but without the GPU phase(s).

This board for example:









has 8 chokes, which typically indicates 6 phases for the CPU cores, and 2 for the IMC/QPI, so it is refered to as 6+2

With older chipsets, and CPU that do no use an IMC (skt 775, 478, etc), you just omit the phases for the IMC/QPI.

This board for example has:









8 chokes. Since skt 775 does not have an IMC, they are all dedicated to the CPU cores. This board is refered to as an 8 phase board.

All intel CPU's since 939 i believe have used an IMC, and until llano releases, none will have on-die GPUs, so they are all "CPU cores+IMC/HT".

i hope that clears at least something up

EDIT: here is a diagram i made a while back (click to enlarge):


Red=mosfets
Green=chokes for CPU mosfets
blue= chokes for the northbridge mosfets


----------



## xd_1771

An Intel board list would probably have to be huge and require lots of research and time; I don't mind doing one actually when I have more time, just that it hasn't been done yet.
Platform-specific VRM splitting info can be found in the OP.

*doritos93*: Be sure to shoot me a PM. Gigabyte 770s don't fail often but the 4+1 models do feature VRMs with a cheapish 3-transistor design that could be failure prone. I'd like to know more.


----------



## reflex99

didnt that one guy say that the Giga 770 boards use the same VRM design as the K9A2 plat?


----------



## xd_1771

I think so... still a cheaper 3-transistor design and this time unheatsinked
Anyways this thread could use another bump. At the moment due to school priorities I'm going to have to slow down on that new horror stories list google doc though...


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12949548*
> I think so... still a cheaper 3-transistor design and this time unheatsinked
> Anyways this thread could use another bump. At the moment due to school priorities I'm going to have to slow down on that new horror stories list google doc though...


It's impressive enough already


----------



## Nahte27

Great read! I wish this thread existed last year. It would have saved me a lot of pain...

Here's the thread with pics of my MSI board horror story: http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=514092&mpage=1

Anyway, good read and +rep for compiling all this info.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doritos93;12907730*
> Hey xd_1771, I just noticed your compilation in the OP of failed VRMs. I used to have a MA770 something from Gigabtye who's VRMS died on me out of nowhere. I even think I started a thread or two.


How do you know your CPU VRM died ?!What mobo version?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12908270*
> didnt that one guy say that the Giga 770 boards use the same VRM design as the K9A2 plat?


Yes the 770-UD3 v1/2 uses the same design as K9A2 Platinum transistor wise ,but v2.0/2.1 of 770-UD3 has a plus over version 1 ,the VRM area was redesiigned so you can install a proper VRM heatsink.
So version 1 and 2 are different in some aspects.
Also on the Gigabyte website is stated that for unlocking you need to add a VRM heatsink.

Having in mind the popularity of the 770-UD3 we don t see to many reports of VRM failures for it ,practically i m yet to see a picture with it burned even now .Silent death can mean anything.
Keep in mind versions 2.0 and 2.1 unlock CPU-s and were extremelly popular.

Also let s not make confusions between bad VRM designs ,as in limiting your overclock stability and range and bad VRM designs that end up with burning smell.

No matter the number of transistors in the VRM the board should have a OCP protection and close itself before samething bad to happen.This is what i practically want ,all brands to implement protections on the boards ,no matter the price ,even when they go low budget and use weak transistors for unknown reasons .

Burning smell means crap components in the first place .

Also let s not make general asumptions like -> "my sample/mobo died this means all the other ones will die soon or are crap".Not all S are P .


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> No matter the number of transistors in the VRM the board should have a OCP protection and close itself before samething bad to happen.


This is why so far I have never seen an ASUS board fail. In the case that the VRMs are overloaded (which does happen sometimes) the board shuts down before damage. I've noticed that multiple times already.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12974988*
> This is why so far I have never seen an ASUS board fail. In the case that the VRMs are overloaded (which does happen sometimes) the board shuts down before damage. I've noticed that multiple times already.


Asus mobos are the only ones that do this or are there others?


----------



## xd_1771

I think I've seen a Gigabyte with Ultra Durable design do it before also.


----------



## reflex99

I have never had a board shut down.

Even with my i5 at 1.9v, my GD80 was fine. 

I wanna get arround to buying a phenom, so i can see if i can hurt the FXE


----------



## pc-illiterate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;12974840*
> How do you know your CPU VRM died ?!What mobo version?


you didnt follow his link ? kinda hard to not say it was the vrm when it clearly exploded.
also have a read on xd 1771's nice little red link of horror stories.


----------



## epsilan47

Hey xd, I've recently got a new comp a couple weeks ago. I've also started reading the forum recently and couldn't help but notice in so many threads you are telling people to stop before their board explodes. So I checked out this thread and now I'm getting pretty worried. As a noob, I've got a couple questions to ask you.

I have a 1055T (125W) and my mobo is Asus M4A88T-M LE, a budget board. After that link in your post I found out it is an 3+1 power phase and this had me really worried. Is it dangerous to continue using this CPU and mobo?

Also, I tried a small overclock to 3.5ghz on the processor. Everything ran fine but whenever I would run Prime95, as soon as my TMPIN2 reached 62 degrees, my cpu ratio would throttle from 14.0 to 7.5 and as soon as temp dropped, then went back to 14.

I thought this was just from the overclock until I went back to stock 2.8ghz and the exact same thing was happening. Except TMPIN2 never went past 55 degrees.

After giving up on finding a solution, I just told myself that it was the power supply that was the culprit (Corsair CX500W). Do you know why this was happening?

Although probably unrelated, when I clocked my Sapphire HD 5850 to 5870 clocks (800,1200) it would work fine in games and was stable after an hour of furmark, I would randomly get a BSOD while browsing the web, even after hardware acceleration turned off. Any ideas?

My specs:

Asus M4A88T-M LE
4x2 GB Corsair XMS3 DDR3
Sapphire HD 5850
Phenom II X6 1055T
Western Digital 1TB 7200 RPM HDD
Corsair CX500W


----------



## xd_1771

I say proceed with extreme caution. Some other similar 3+1 designs from ASUS do not claim 125W support. This board claims 125W support; since ASUS boards use over-current/temperature protection techniques you should be fine IF you remain at stock speed on the stock cooler and no higher. Running a 125W on that board should be at least safe (i.e. it won't explode), but not necessarily fully compatible.

The CPU throttling is probably one part of that protection, I have seen the actual CPU clock/voltage reduce before as OCP protection on ASUS boards, in addition to sudden protective shutdowns due to overload. However, this may not necessarily be related to TMPIN2 (i.e. TMPIN2 is not the VRM temperature and/or there is no VRM temperature sensor that you can read, it is internal).
If it's happening at stock, that is definitely not good. That means the board probably could handle a 125W processor at load but not for extended periods of time - therefore ASUS should have not rated the board as fully 125W compatible. You may be able to solve this problem with a proper 4+1 or better motherboard. With a 4+1 though (if unheatsinked) you should still remain at stock speed/cooler.

The random BSOD thing is probably a miscellaneous issue... i.e. your RAM may be very slightly unstable


----------



## epsilan47

Is there a certain program I can run to test if there's a problem with my RAM?

Also, what would I need to change if I want to overclock the 1055T to 3.5ghz, aside from the motherboard?

Another question, do you think that my power supply could be throttling my GPU? Since I hardly ever see it break 50% usage.

Thanks in advance


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epsilan47;12977959*
> Is there a certain program I can run to test if there's a problem with my RAM?
> 
> Also, what would I need to change if I want to overclock the 1055T to 3.5ghz, aside from the motherboard?
> 
> Another question, do you think that my power supply could be throttling my GPU? Since I hardly ever see it break 50% usage.
> 
> Thanks in advance


run the latest version of memtest. you have to boot it from a flash drive or burn to a cd and boot. run a few passes of that.

besides getting a better board, what cpu cooler are you using? if stock, get a better aftermarket cooler.

also, i doubt your psu would be throttling you gpu. what are running to test your gpu (e.g. what games)?


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pc-illiterate*


you didnt follow his link ? kinda hard to not say it was the vrm when it clearly exploded.


What link are you talking about ?!
I see no link in the guy post.
Maybe you quoted me wrong ?!

Show me ! And show me the power supply used as well.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


The CPU throttling is probably one part of that protection, I have seen the actual CPU clock/voltage reduce before as OCP protection on ASUS boards, in addition to sudden protective shutdowns due to overload. However, this may not necessarily be related to TMPIN2 (i.e. TMPIN2 is not the VRM temperature and/or there is no VRM temperature sensor that you can read, it is internal).


I think i ve seen this on 770-UD3 and on K9A2 Platinum .By the way there are some BIOS options regarding this aspect in the 770-UD3.


----------



## pc-illiterate

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dromihetes*


What link are you talking about ?!
I see no link in the guy post.
Maybe you quoted me wrong ?!

Show me ! And show me the power supply used as well..



Quote:



Originally Posted by *Nahte27*


Great read! I wish this thread existed last year. It would have saved me a lot of pain...

Here's the thread with pics of my MSI board horror story: http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=514092&mpage=1

Anyway, good read and +rep for compiling all this info.


corsair power supply but he doesnt state in any post what exact model although right now it is an hx850.
i quoted you right but you were asking a different poster. lol. sorry about the mix-up. my bad. lol i this this after i started this post. im just too lazy to delete it.
sorry again.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pc-illiterate;12983606*
> corsair power supply but he doesnt state in any post what exact model although right now it is an hx850.
> i quoted you right but you were asking a different poster. lol. sorry about the mix-up. my bad. lol i this this after i started this post. im just too lazy to delete it.
> sorry again.


No problemo ,we just need to be clear.


----------



## xd_1771

*epsilan*: fazio93 has said it all


----------



## Problame

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epsilan47;12977959*
> Another question, do you think that my power supply could be throttling my GPU? Since I hardly ever see it break 50% usage.
> 
> Thanks in advance


My old 1055T needed a OC to use more of the GPU's potential. Check the GPU usage again once your CPU is on the wanted 3.5Ghz


----------



## epsilan47

Wow, you're right. My GPU usage is at 99% now, even though I'm only running games like WoW, TF2, Fallout New Vegas, and a poorly optimized beta of Natural Selection 2.

Just got back home. Going to run memtest and I'll tell you the results.

Otherwise, xd, I'm thinking about getting this board - http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131637

8+1 phase power, heatsinked, and low RDS, with that spreadsheet recommending 140W+.


----------



## xd_1771

Decent board, only sinch is you may run into some vDroop issues so I've heard


----------



## reflex99

If you don't mind abnormally high vDroop, then it is a fine board power delivery wise.

Overclocking, and High DOA rate, are another issue though.


----------



## dashaman

Interesting read. Will keep this in mind


----------



## epsilan47

It's poor for overclocking?

How about this board - http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131647 ?


----------



## Crabby654

So I am not very well versed in VRM's and Mosfets, although reading this thread had me a bit concerned.

I have a GA-890GPA-UD3H (rev. 2.1) - http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3516#ov

I was just curious if the OP or anyone could shed some light on if this board is dangerous in anyway. Or would it be dumb to buy an aftermarket heatsink for it because I would like to buy an aftermarket heatsink for my NB (it runs at 53c full load atm).


----------



## reflex99

it is a fine board.

Don't go pushing insane volts (1.6+) and you will be fine


----------



## Crabby654

Ya my only really goal is get to 4.0Ghz on my 955 below 55c. Right now I have an H50 cooler and my cpu is at 3.8Ghz @1.425v. When I push it to to 4 my cpu temp shoots up to 55-57c and my NB is around 55c. Which is why I wanted to cool my NB and get a rasa water cooling kit for my CPU.


----------



## Heavy MG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;12989868*
> it is a fine board.
> 
> Don't go pushing insane volts (1.6+) and you will be fine


^Agreed. It probably has high quality VRM's,and a heatsink covering them. Motherboards without VRM cooling is pretty much OC at your own risk. Also,higher quality phases means you usually don't need as many.
Question,which temp is my NB?


----------



## xd_1771

The 890GPA is a quality ultra durable motherboard with great VRM quality and it's even heatsinked nicely
Not as ideal as other boards for pushing x6 (i.e. less phases = not as stellar power delivery = perhaps not as good of an OC) but that's about it.


----------



## Crabby654

@Heavy MG - I might be wrong but I think the NB is TMPIN01, but I have heard it could be the bottom as well. It's actually really unclear which one it is.

@xd 1771 - Do you recommend me getting any type of aftermarket heatsink for the VRM? because I would really love to get an aftermarket one for my NB but the NB and VRM heatsinks are piped together.


----------



## xd_1771

The one on it right now is pretty good
If you want an aftermarket NB heatsink go ahead, but if you're not using the integrated graphics then it would be highly unnecessary


----------



## fazio93

My motherboard has a thermal shut down option for when the NB reaches 95C. So I would think aftermarket NB heatsinks are unnecessary. Even if you OC the NB, you are only adding CPU-NB voltage to the IMC on the CPU.


----------



## epsilan47

Hey xd, how decent is this board?

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...82E16813131647 ?


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *epsilan47*


Hey xd, how decent is this board?

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...82E16813131647 ?


broken link


----------



## Crabby654

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12990544*
> The one on it right now is pretty good
> If you want an aftermarket NB heatsink go ahead, but if you're not using the integrated graphics then it would be highly unnecessary


Alright, I mean I don't use the integrated graphics, I just get nervous when I see the NB at around 55c and the heatsink is hot. But if all is well, then no reason to buy anything useless


----------



## epsilan47

Apologies,

here is the board

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131647&cm_re=M4a87td-_-13-131-647-_-Product

How is it in comparison to the other one I linked?


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *epsilan47*


Apologies,

here is the board

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...-647-_-Product

How is it in comparison to the other one I linked?


Both are good boards. the M4A87TD has an 8+2 phase, but only a 4 pin cpu connector. the M4N75TD has an 8+1 phase but an 8 pin cpu connector. generally 8 pins are better not because it can provide more power but because it can provide _ more stable current_ under load. this is especially important for 125W cpus.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *scottath*


yea - thats the advantage of the 8 pin

4 pin = 2 12v 2 Ground
8pin = 4 12v 4 gound
so it splits the load/current between more wires - thus less resistance as there is more paths to travel.


i don't think there is that much of a disadvantage between 8+1 and 8+2 phase, but xd knows more.


----------



## epsilan47

Which one would you recommend I take if I want to overclock my 1055T to 3.5GhZ?


----------



## xd_1771

8+1 vs 8+2.... you lose a single phase for the CPU-NB; it won't consume enough power to overthrow a single phase but overclocking the CPU-NB may not fare as well as an 8+2, due to less clean power.
The M4A87TD EVO is a decent unit actually, not one that suffers from really heavy vDroop. The M4N75 does I think, despite the 8-pin; that probably stems down to the PWM controller


----------



## epsilan47

So in other words, go with with the M4A87TD EVO?


----------



## xd_1771

If you don't need the SLI capability


----------



## amstech

I've skimmed over the thread and have some 2cents.

In most cases overclocks are not guaranteed anyways.
The VRM's are built for stock clocks... correct? then with added cooling you can push the boundaries?

Thats the way I've always looked at it anyways.
How many boards/chips blow VRM's at stock frequency? 
I am guessing (other then a faulty/prone for failure/poorly designed chip) its quite rare.

edit:

To add,
For example, I bet you if NO ONE IN THE WORLD overclocked their 570 one tiny bit or touched the voltage you would hardly/very rarely here about a VRM issue.


----------



## mdocod

Quote:



Originally Posted by *amstech*


I've skimmed over the thread and have some 2cents.

In most cases overclocks are not guaranteed anyways.
The VRM's are built for stock clocks... correct? then with added cooling you can push the boundaries?


Many board advertise their ability to overclock. The VRMs on the better of those boards that are intended as OCing boards are built above and beyond what would be necessary for stock speeds by a fair margin.

Quote:



Thats the way I've always looked at it anyways.
How many boards/chips blow VRM's at stock frequency?


If we add to that question "on the stock cooler" as well, then the answer is very very few. Stock CPU coolers, on CPUs running at stock speeds, are not likely to blow VRMs. The stock cooler plays an important role in the thermal stability of the VRMs in normal situations. After-market cooling often hampers proper VRM cooling, which I believe has more to do with failures than any other condition. Large over-built CPU power supplies handle the lack of cooling better because they are so over-built from the get-goes.

Quote:



I am guessing (other then a faulty/prone for failure/poorly designed chip) its quite rare.


Exactly.


----------



## xd_1771

This just in from member konspiracy:

He has claimed that his ASRock board (a low end 880GMH) does indeed feature an OCP, fighting the lack of evidence of OCP that we have found about ASRock boards. He has said that without a Delta fans over the VRM they get too hot but automatically shut down due to the heat - heat expected due to it being a visibly cheap 2-transistor 4+1 design. Anyone care to investigate the presence of OCP on ASRock boards?

He also says he failed a Biostar TA790GXE's VRMs by "restarting in and out of the BIOS multiple times". I'm not sure how that is even possible or if the VRM failure was actually linked to that.


----------



## xd_1771

I have done a new superficial section based on Over Current Protection, and why this is of very big importance as well. I'm thinking of ways to improve it later on with more information.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


I have done a new superficial section based on Over Current Protection, and why this is of very big importance as well. I'm thinking of ways to improve it later on with more information.


----------



## ronnin426850

Does lowering the VCore protect the MOSFETs? That'd theoretically lower the CPUs power consumption, so less heat on the mosfet? Or not?


----------



## xd_1771

I think lowering the vCore may increase the amperage and chance of failure.... (so I've been told...) so it's sort of a balance of lower power usage but more amperage
I'll have to investigate more on that later today


----------



## Dromihetes

It seems that MSI mobos do tend to deliver a little more voltage to the CPU on auto ,from what i observe ,at least with my own toys.So the VRM heats up more as the CPU sucks more.Lowering the voltage to the minimum stable could be interesting

xd_1771 ,if you re lowering the voltage aren t you making the CPU to heat up less ,this meaning less power consumption/less ampers draw ,as any semiconductor tends to suck more power when it heats more (resistance lowers with temperature) ?!


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;13038471*
> It seems that MSI mobos do tend to deliver a little more voltage to the CPU on auto ,from what i observe ,at least with my own toys.So the VRM heats up more as the CPU sucks more.Lowering the voltage to the minimum stable could be interesting
> 
> xd_1771 ,if you re lowering the voltage aren t you making the CPU to heat up less ,this meaning less power consumption/less ampers draw ,as any semiconductor tends to suck more power when it heats more (resistance lowers with temperature) ?!


That was my thinking too.. Anyway, another question:

Say I have separate mosfet sinks - how to attach them to the mosfets?? Glue?


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850;13038794*
> Say I have separate mosfet sinks - how to attach them to the mosfets?? Glue?


http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/870966-mosfet-heatsink.html


----------



## donnybrasco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13036012*
> I think lowering the vCore may increase the amperage and chance of failure.... (so I've been told...) so it's sort of a balance of lower power usage but more amperage
> I'll have to investigate more on that later today


V=IR, P=I^2*R = V^2/R = IV

Assuming your power consumption is constant then lowering the Vcore would increase the current. Power is not constant though. You are lowering the power consumption when lowering the Vcore on these processors.


----------



## reflex99

Your user title says doin it for the lolz.

But then your avatar says doin it wrong.

Doin it wrong for Lolz??


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;13039037*
> Your user title says doin it for the lolz.
> 
> But then your avatar says doin it wrong.
> 
> Doin it wrong for Lolz?7


xd_1771 seems well intended ,you are a little harsh with the joke.









Your title remainds me of the huge Kashtan tape recorders on the other hand.








Made in U.S.S.R


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;13039196*
> you are a little harsh with the joke.


i don't even understand the joke...


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fazio93;13039252*
> i don't even understand the joke...












We are going off topic









LE: Couldn t resist to the first emoticon i posted.


----------



## ronnin426850

Back on topic- what is normal temp for mosfets under load? (temp that doesn't say "Fire in the hole!!!!".. *gshhhh*)


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ronnin426850*


Back on topic- what is normal temp for mosfets under load? (temp that doesn't say "Fire in the hole!!!!".. *gshhhh*)


Try touching one while running IBT?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *fazio93*


Try touching one while running IBT?


Yep, but I can't feel the difference between 60C and 80C. You're saying it should be under 60, right?


----------



## Dissentience

I have a temp sensor on my MOSFET heatsink and it reads ~42C while folding. Remember that is just the surface temp of the heatsink though.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dromihetes*


xd_1771 seems well intended ,you are a little harsh with the joke.









Your title remainds me of the huge Kashtan tape recorders on the other hand.








Made in U.S.S.R










I like to imagine this old dude. With heavy russian accent. He like is in some frozen place 300000 km from anywhere. In a Soviet tank, then he like knocks down a house or something, gets out of the tank, and says "Soviet Engineering" and laughs.


----------



## xd_1771

I posted that this morning, with around 15 minutes between the time I got on and the time I had to leave for school or be late









What I've heard from a few people is that a higher voltage will run more stable and lowering it can provide less amps. I think I have confused that between the actual CPU voltage value, and the 12V voltage. If the 12V voltage is lower, then it would push more amps and begin getting fishy.

ronnin, pg. 60: Thermal tape or adhesive.

Quote:



I like to imagine this old dude. With heavy russian accent. He like is in some frozen place 300000 km from anywhere. In a Soviet tank, then he like knocks down a house or something, gets out of the tank, and says "Soviet Engineering" and laughs.


Ever seen the movie Armageddon?
The scene where Lev bangs a wrench onto the broken part on the shuttle, and then says "THAT'S HOW YOU FIX IT IN RUSSIAN SPACE STATION!"


----------



## reflex99

in soviet russia. Space station fix you


----------



## xd_1771

In Soviet Russia, 2+1 phase can run 200W+ processor








I'm joking, don't attempt this...


----------



## reflex99

idk, probably could.

Too bad we cannot go back to 1990 and check


----------



## xd_1771

I don't think processors consumed this much then
I think we only passed the 45W barrier (for consumers) with Pentium 4
i.e. the era of the new ATX 4-pin


----------



## reflex99

they were probably just dumping DC current into the proc on their Commiedore 64's

Phases were for capitalists


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


Commiedore 64's


----------



## ronnin426850

Just made mytself 5 double size mosfet coolers to cover my 10 mosfets. Made them out of an old MSI GPU heatsink, turned out beautiful







Now off to get some thermal tape and will post pics later









*UPDATE:* Just got a word from Asus tech support, who say max operating temp for mosfets is 85C, as absolute maximum. Just so you know


----------



## ronnin426850

Ok, in the gorgeous danish hardware stores, nobody sells thermal tape







So I had to improvise - I put normal thermal paste on the mosfets, then my custom heatsinks and glued them with super glue to the chokes! Works flawlessly - mosfet temp dropped from 83C to 61C @4Ghz.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850;13046169*
> Just made mytself 5 double size mosfet coolers to cover my 10 mosfets. Made them out of an old MSI GPU heatsink, turned out beautiful
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now off to get some thermal tape and will post pics later
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *UPDATE:* Just got a word from Asus tech support, who say max operating temp for mosfets is 85C, as absolute maximum. Just so you know


A quality MOSFET , intended for power aplications , should be able to work at 125 Celsius just fine.If it doesn t then ... low quality ?!


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;13046884*
> A quality MOSFET , intended for power aplications , should be able to work at 125 Celsius just fine.If it doesn t then ... low quality ?!


Asus mosfets are usually good, and that tech did say "in my opinion", so maybe he wasn't very sure







I'll quote exactly:
Quote:


> 2. This is my personal opinion/from own experience, but a good "rule of thumb" for mosfets are: -40°C to +85°C, so I would say that it is not critical, but over +85°C might be very critical.


Anyway, after heavy load and no air flow at all in my crappy case, mine now max at 78C. Should be fine. Moderate load (Crysis) keeps them at ~65C.


----------



## xd_1771

I'll be sure to place some temperature info in the next revision.


----------



## ronnin426850

Here goes the pic, as promised








Sorry for the crappy quality, i hope you can see the small copper sinks on the mosfets - those used to be a big circular sink from an MSI GPU, until they were recycled into mosfet sinks


----------



## railfan844

Here comes some more OCD with my 4+1 based 125w cpu


----------



## xd_1771

railfan as long as your MOSFETs are cooled (i.e. heatsinks) you'll be fine


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ronnin426850*


Here goes the pic, as promised








Sorry for the crappy quality, i hope you can see the small copper sinks on the mosfets - those used to be a big circular sink from an MSI GPU, until they were recycled into mosfet sinks











What exactly are you cooling over there as i see pairs of mosfets "in the air" ?!
This heatsink cooling helps stability ,but if the semiconductors are bad they will go out with cooling installed as you can see on some other mobos.
If your mobo has OCP (asus seems to have this feature) you are safe against smoke , if thats your fear.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dromihetes*


What exactly are you cooling over there as i see pairs of mosfets "in the air" ?!
This heatsink cooling helps stability ,but if the semiconductors are bad they will go out with cooling installed as you can see on some other mobos.
If your mobo has OCP (asus seems to have this feature) you are safe against smoke , if thats your fear.


I don't think he's scared of his board going up in smoke. It's just like putting a cooler on a cpu right? CPU shuts down when it gets too hot and so keeping it cool keeps that from happening? Same concept is it not?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dromihetes*


What exactly are you cooling over there as i see pairs of mosfets "in the air" ?!
This heatsink cooling helps stability ,but if the semiconductors are bad they will go out with cooling installed as you can see on some other mobos.
If your mobo has OCP (asus seems to have this feature) you are safe against smoke , if thats your fear.


My fear was any kind of damage. Those little chips don't get hot, only the 10 larder ones I've covered. And yes, I think it has OCP... There's option in the BIOS at least.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ronnin426850*


My fear was any kind of damage. Those little chips don't get hot, only the 10 larder ones I've covered. And yes, I think it has OCP... There's option in the BIOS at least.


where? i'd like to know. my board has 'Anti-Surge Protection', but that's just for voltage fluctuations, unless that includes OCP in it.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *fazio93*


where? i'd like to know. my board has 'Anti-Surge Protection', but that's just for voltage fluctuations, unless that includes OCP in it.


Not sure right now, I'm not on the rig, but it said something like "Enable/Disable ASP and OCP"...


----------



## xd_1771

I think on ASUS the protection both applies to the 4-pin/8-pin input as well as DC output


----------



## r31ncarnat3d

Are there any mATX boards that aren't 4+1?


----------



## reflex99

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14[/ame[/URL]]


----------



## xd_1771

I think a few might be 4+2 but that is it

4+1 vs 8+2 issue might fade a bit as the majority of FX-series coming out will be a 95W TDP


----------



## reflex99

and maybe the AM3+ reference board won't be 4+1


----------



## r31ncarnat3d

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


and maybe the AM3+ reference board won't be 4+1











Hopefully for mATX. I'm more interested though if my board can handle BD without smoking. I'm lucky enough to be on the "Compatibility with BIOS update" list, so we'll see how it goes.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r31ncarnat3d;13063282*
> Hopefully for mATX. I'm more interested though if my board can handle BD without smoking. I'm lucky enough to be on the "Compatibility with BIOS update" list, so we'll see how it goes.


The new CPU-s might suck less ampers from the VRM-s as they are new fabrication tek.This means less stress on the VRM.


----------



## farmdve

Oh noes. When this thread was first created i only saw boards from the 8XX chipset blowing up, but now i see 780G and mine is 785....this is bad especially with undervolted and underclocked CPUs.
Moreover a Gigabyte board(like mine).


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *farmdve*


Oh noes. When this thread was first created i only saw boards from the 8XX chipset blowing up, but now i see 780G and mine is 785....this is bad especially with undervolted and underclocked CPUs.
Moreover a Gigabyte board(like mine).


Why? With the undervolt and Gigabyte's MOSFETs you should be solid safe.


----------



## farmdve

My point is, i am not safe...could be a matter of time+summer heat


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:



Originally Posted by *farmdve*


Oh noes. When this thread was first created i only saw boards from the 8XX chipset blowing up, but now i see 780G and mine is 785....this is bad especially with undervolted and underclocked CPUs.
Moreover a Gigabyte board(like mine).


There aren't any chipset specifics as to VRMs. Any board could blow up if taken past the limits.

Now your 785G is an old 4+1 design from 2007-2008 that does have known problems. Considering - if as you said - you run a 955 underclocked/undervolted, you should be fine


----------



## Mightylobo

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone can show me where to put some heatsinks to cool my MOSFET.









Thank you!


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Mightylobo*


Hello,

I was wondering if anyone can show me where to put some heatsinks to cool my MOSFET.









Thank you!











That's some bad positioning....

The small black sqare chips that are right above the big black cubes, are your MOSFETs. You'll need some hell of an improvisation to be able to cool them with locations like that...


----------



## Dissentience

Here


----------



## Mightylobo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dissentience*


Here










Thanks!, Just to be clear I don't have to cool the big blocks right?

+rep


----------



## Dissentience

Yup the big blocks are chokes and they shouldn't get very hot


----------



## xd_1771

Above the 5 big grey or black blocks are the MOSFET chips.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dissentience*


Yup the big blocks are chokes and they shouldn't get very hot


They do get very hot, they just won't burst into flames


----------



## Kokin

Quote:



Originally Posted by *fazio93*


They do get very hot, they just won't burst into flames


They do indeed get very hot. It's possible to burn yourself if you touch them for longer than a few seconds.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kokin*


They do indeed get very hot. It's possible to burn yourself if you touch them for longer than a few seconds.


I felt one while running IBT once...i couldn't keep my finger on it for more than a second


----------



## Mightylobo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dissentience*


Yup the big blocks are chokes and they shouldn't get very hot


I am planning to just put a slab of copper on the vrms, should I slab some on the blocks as well? I have a bunch of piece of copper lying around.. I just order two 40mm fans to pull heat off them slabs of copper too







..

Not sure how I am going to install the fans on my case..I am thinking about ziptie/twist around the premises.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Mightylobo*


I am planning to just put a slab of copper on the vrms, should I slab some on the blocks as well? I have a bunch of piece of copper lying around.. I just order two 40mm fans to pull heat off them slabs of copper too







..

Not sure how I am going to install the fans on my case..I am thinking about ziptie/twist around the premises.










putting them on the chokes (the blocks) is not necessary but it wouldn't hurt.

also, you would get better heat dissipation with the fans blowing toward/on the blocks and not sucking away


----------



## xd_1771

The chokes can get hot but they're not active transistors, they're not in any immediate danger of failing


----------



## Mightylobo

Quote:



Originally Posted by *fazio93*


putting them on the chokes (the blocks) is not necessary but it wouldn't hurt.

also, you would get better heat dissipation with the fans blowing toward/on the blocks and not sucking away


Just a bit scare of screwing up the airflow in my case that's all







.


----------



## xd_1771

It's been rather slow here lately
One new horror story on an x4/MSI 870 board.... as expected if you run a 125W x4 on an MSI 870 board, it blew up for the guy.

Work on everything else (including a few of the proposed sections and the new horror stories Google Docs table) has slowed down quite a bit due to school priorities.

However, I'm pleased to announce that a new person on OCN (name unmentioned for now) who knows a lot about VRMs will be *soon publishing a new article completely about VRM systems with very detailed information in the Intel section*. It's going to take a lot of load off me due to having to correct/update this article all the time, especially in hard times. I myself am very excited about the prospect of bringing more concern to VRMs and user safety to this site. This thread will remain along with my article as it is (with modifications pertaining to the new info thread in case anything was inaccurate), as my thread has a bit more of a focus on how VRM quality will affect user safety, then how they exactly work in detail.


----------



## reflex99

O_O interesting


----------



## Kokin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fazio93;13103172*
> I felt one while running IBT once...i couldn't keep my finger on it for more than a second


I was just talking about idle/normal activity... I've felt the heat coming from them during IBT/LinX and I didn't even want to touch them.


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13106880*
> However, I'm pleased to announce that a new person on OCN (name unmentioned for now) who knows a lot about VRMs will be *soon publishing a new article completely about VRM systems with very detailed information in the Intel section*. It's going to take a lot of load off me due to having to correct/update this article all the time, especially in hard times. I myself am very excited about the prospect of bringing more concern to VRMs and user safety to this site. This thread will remain along with my article as it is (with modifications pertaining to the new info thread in case anything was inaccurate), as my thread has a bit more of a focus on how VRM quality will affect user safety, then how they exactly work in detail.


I hope it s an engineer.We need such a guy to objectivelly pin point the essential.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;13109012*
> I hope it s an engineer.We need such a guy to objectivelly pin point the essential.


An engineer who knows what's a good brand of VRM's like we know what's a good brand of components. But I won't get my hopes up.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kokin*


I was just talking about idle/normal activity... I've felt the heat coming from them during IBT/LinX and I didn't even want to touch them.










they won't bite...they'll just give you 3rd degree burns


----------



## FXTOi7

Wow all MSI


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mikepahl318*


Wow all MSI


And most of them Nikos based.


----------



## xd_1771

This just in: it is inductor quality that defines quality VRM system or not
Simply put you either need really high quality inductors with high rating (1 per phase) or a more reliable 2 per phase, whether the rating is the same or lower. This may explain why MSI boards with NIKOS MOSFETs fail a lot... meanwhile you have boards on ASUS, Biostar, etc. using NIKOS MOSFETs and they don't fail often. I never thought the chokes'd be something we overlooked.

The theory of which board to choose stays the same throughout. For high TDP processors, quality 4+1 power phase (quality inductors is the culprit, perhaps not MOSFETs) or 8+2 power phase will remain by norm; however, the new thesis makes it more evident that 8+2 power phase does make a difference and is the end winner. As long as the inductors are not rated stupidly low (which is still unlikely).

I'm trusting this guy, he seems to have a lot more hands on experience and knowledge in VRM systems than I do or most of us.


----------



## fazio93

I couldn't really understand most of the stuff he wrote.









So basically low quality chokes (e.g. low rated current) = malfunction of chokes which starts storing energy = sending too much power to vrms = explosion?


----------



## xd_1771

It does seem so. If the chokes get too much power going through them, it either hits the chokes or backfires onto the MOSFETs; the latter happens most often, perhaps that is why we blame it on the MOSFETs more than chokes.
But how to tell choke quality easily if this really were true?


----------



## Dromihetes

Definetelly low quality MOSFETS (low amperages at 100 Celsius ,low thermal disipation) + low quality coils = VRM failure.

Too bad i don t have a thermometer to measure the temps on the 790XT-G45 VRM .It s amazing how the VRM heats up even with the 550 BE at stock ,compared to the 770-UD3 for example.
And i have the feeling that the capacitor values are too big also ,stressing the VRM even more (swithcing power supplyes don t like to much capacitance on the output ) .They added more capacitance to compensate for the low speed swithcing maybe ,to avoid voltage drops.

What to say ,the VRM on MSI AMD mobos sucks ,noob engineers








Or the manufacturer (beeing MSI factory or 3-rd party) uses equivalents , instead of what was designed/meant (for beeing cheap of course).


----------



## robbo2

Well, I was going to test my 965 C3 at 4.5ghz on a MSI 790FX-GD70 however I think I might pass on that


----------



## wumpus

http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/997091-so-who-needs-expensive-motherboard-anyway.html


----------



## reflex99

On dice/ln2? Or air?


----------



## fazio93

let's see how long it takes


----------



## wumpus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;13230731*
> On dice/ln2? Or air?


of course its air you silly goose.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fazio93;13230779*
> let's see how long it takes


running 1.5v now









raping it with wprime as well at 4240!


----------



## reflex99

It is possible that it is an exception. I mean look at the fxe, 4+2 board from a company with a history of mediocre voltage regulators.


----------



## wumpus

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


It is possible that it is an exception. I mean look at the fxe, 4+2 board from a company with a history of mediocre voltage regulators.


I mean maybe, I am pushing 1.520v through it right now at 100% load and it hasn't exploded (yet)

I think all these explosions are because people get stability happy with prime95 or LinX and run them for quite a while. I am using hyper pi and wprime which honestly are all you need. Hyper pi absolutely makes sure IMC is stable and wprime is all CPU.


----------



## Redwoodz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wumpus;13230988*
> I mean maybe, I am pushing 1.520v through it right now at 100% load and it hasn't exploded (yet)
> 
> I think all these explosions are because people get stability happy with prime95 or LinX and run them for quite a while. I am using hyper pi and wprime which honestly are all you need. Hyper pi absolutely makes sure IMC is stable and wprime is all CPU.


I tend to agree.I also think MSI had a rash of bad components,which can happen to anyone(hello Intel!).I've been folding 3 days straight with this x3 at 4.3GHz and 1.56v on a 870-G45 MSI,of course I am cooling it with air.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wumpus;13230617*
> http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/997091-so-who-needs-expensive-motherboard-anyway.html


Now get yourself a 6-core and see what happens.


----------



## wumpus

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Krusher33*


Now get yourself a 6-core and see what happens.










well we all already know what would happen


----------



## xd_1771

No exceptions there, it is going to blow. That board has known problems, it is even on the horror stories list a few times. Might take some time though, boards don't necessarily fail right away, often they can degrade over time.


----------



## reflex99

horror stories sounds so cheesy.....

Maybe: "Known failures"


----------



## xd_1771

Perhaps "Known failure incidents"
I'll consider it, you're kind of right actually... horror stories was actually something I coined off what another member on OCN said.


----------



## reflex99

Confirmed incidents


----------



## robbo2

Quick question. I have a MSI GD70-790FX board with a 965 that is 12 hours prime stable at 4.3 1.44v and I want to use it to fold during the challenge. I can also get stable at 4ghz with 1.35v so should I just run 4? Or would 4.3 be safe.


----------



## xd_1771

Very nice low voltage... make sure that MOSFET heatsink is tight though, perhaps get a fan on there since with water cooling there's no way for that heat to effectively dissipate; remember the cooling also shares chipset heat and by heatpipe extension the southbridge. Failures with x4s aren't that common.

I've got no worry for the upcoming Chimp Challenge, my 790X which is a very nice 8+2 has been powering this bucket of bolts for about 1.75 years on processors with really high TDPs (first a C2 140W 965 now a 1055T) and this NH-D14 will keep it super cool and quiet


----------



## robbo2

Thank xd, just the man I was hoping would answer


----------



## xd_1771

Hey, I created the thread







you'll be seeing me here often


----------



## Dissentience

In a way, I helped create the thread


----------



## kevinf

Hi, xd_1771

I signed up to ask you your opinion on my system. I just bought a C3 AMD 965 125watt, and my system specs are posted in my sig. I have wicked DDR2 ram and was hoping to overclock the crap out of my new CPU to 4ghz but im a little nervous after reading this thread. Don't have cash for AM3 mobo... Current Mobo specs / picture: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/pro....aspx?pid=2995

I have great cooling for the cpu and I think I will add an aluminum heatsink to the FETS.

Is it safe to do at least a mild OC? OC the ram back to 250 FSB and drop the multi and settle on an OC of about 3.5 Ghz on quad?


----------



## xd_1771

Older VRM design, it's been on the known failures list a few times. I say if you can add decent cooling on it (w/small fan preferably), it should be okay, but I don't recommend pushing past 1.475V


----------



## xd_1771

I'm clear of my big project... expect major updates to this thread soon


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


I'm clear of my big project... expect major updates to this thread soon


[off-topic]

What's your big project about?


----------



## xd_1771

I'm in secondary, this one was a big one about the Klondike Gold Rush (though it could've been anything involving history & Canada) for a "Historica fair", similar in respect to a science fair
Worked like a beast for the past month... my OCN presence & work on articles such as this diminished a bit but now I'm back and better than ever


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13275304*
> "Historica fair"


----------



## xd_1771

I know, sad excuse to not be on OCN, but it'll probably result in me having the best social studies mark in my grade this year


----------



## Krusher33

Meh. Never liked Social Studies. Failed them in Junior High and then just 'C' average in High School. It was pretty obvious I didn't read anything.


----------



## PcKiller

Very helpful info, and well put together.

+1 Rep


----------



## POOOON

how can i buy vmr


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krusher33;13278130*
> Meh. Never liked Social Studies. Failed them in Junior High and then just 'C' average in High School. It was pretty obvious I didn't read anything.


To bad as reading opens your mind.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Dromihetes*


To bad as reading opens your mind.


You used the wrong instance. It's "too".

Quote:



Originally Posted by *POOOON*


how can i buy vmr


You're doing it wrong.


----------



## noahhova

All makes sense, any OC'er should read this when deciding on a build.

I have seen ppl flame you on this site for trying to help them with this knowledge on other threads. Shame. +Rep


----------



## Imglidinhere

I've gotta ask this here. Is this motherboard unsuitable for my 550?

I've got it overclocked to 3.8GHz @ 1.475v and it's pulling 116w and appears to be stable, according to Intel Burn Test. This board.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Imglidinhere*


I've gotta ask this here. Is this motherboard unsuitable for my 550?

I've got it overclocked to 3.8GHz @ 1.475v and it's pulling 116w and appears to be stable, according to Intel Burn Test. This board.


That board LOOKS to be what, a 4+1 or a 3+1?

Either way, the 550 isn't very power hungry at all. If anything, throw some VRM sinks on it, and have at it. Just keep it locked down as a dual core, and it should be fine.

My opinion.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud*


That board LOOKS to be what, a 4+1 or a 3+1?

Either way, the 550 isn't very power hungry at all. If anything, throw some VRM sinks on it, and have at it. Just keep it locked down as a dual core, and it should be fine.

My opinion.


+1. 
550 is 80W, and the mobo is 4+1.


----------



## xd_1771

Very unsuitable, it is a 3+1 with super low quality. I can't see how it could be built for any 125W operation.
As long as the 550 is locked/not unlocked to 4 cores you will be okay but I do not recommend upping it too high above stock, i.e. stay below 1.475V. You will want to get some cooling on there for safest possible operation.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


Very unsuitable, it is a 3+1 with super low quality. I can't see how it could be built for any 125W operation.
As long as the 550 is locked/not unlocked to 4 cores you will be okay but I do not recommend upping it too high above stock, i.e. stay below 1.475V. You will want to get some cooling on there for safest possible operation.


Which is exactly what I just said 2 posts earlier.







Just with less fear being put into it.

That board will be just fine for a locked down dual core. Especially if he puts $10 worth of VRM sinks on it.


----------



## Imglidinhere

Mkay. I'll do that. ^_^ It never goes above 47*C under full load if that means anything and I found that 1.475v is plenty for a stable overclock. Can you guy point to the VRMs for me on a piccy of this board so I know what to put the heatsinks on? Don't wanna look like a n00b. XD


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13283502*
> Very unsuitable, it is a 3+1 with super low quality. I can't see how it could be built for any 125W operation.
> As long as the 550 is locked/not unlocked to 4 cores you will be okay but I do not recommend upping it too high above stock, i.e. stay below 1.475V. You will want to get some cooling on there for safest possible operation.


How is it 3+1, when I see 5 chokes on it?


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imglidinhere;13288848*
> Mkay. I'll do that. ^_^ It never goes above 47*C under full load if that means anything and I found that 1.475v is plenty for a stable overclock. Can you guy point to the VRMs for me on a piccy of this board so I know what to put the heatsinks on? Don't wanna look like a n00b. XD


attached

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850;13289552*
> How is it 3+1, when I see 5 chokes on it?


the most left one is for the northbridge (that's not counted), so the cpu is 3+1. (3 for the cpu, 1 for the imc on the cpu). there is also one next to the ram slots for the ram, also not counted


----------



## xd_1771

you can also tell by the capacitor pattern (between chokes & socket) that it is a 3+1 (2 capacitors/choke/phase)


----------



## mindwarper

+1 rep from me good first post about why VRMs are so critical sometimes...


----------



## xd_1771

I've gotten the word from Tator himself. Though I heard this months ago, I wasn't actually able to confirm it from him till now. He has blown both of the recent MSI 8+2 phase boards VRMs, on a 965 C3 x4, at 4.4Ghz 1.45V. MSI being the least of our problems VRM-wise with these new boards on beefy 8+2 phases - unfortunately, certainly not. Looks like they have some serious work to do.


----------



## reflex99

1 failure is not a trend.....


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


1 failure is not a trend.....


I'm glad I'm not the only one that see's this.


----------



## thrasherht

Quote:



Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud*


I'm glad I'm not the only one that see's this.










I am glad that you guys don't see the trend with MSI boards failing.


----------



## xd_1771

That would be two failures on boards just about sharing VRM design. Though you are right about the failure =/= trend thing, but MSI boards have been particularly known to have issues with VRM quality; I am indeed waiting on more failures to happen before I make serious adjustments in my suggestions.

It should be kept in mind that adding phases may not necessarily solve the problem of having low quality MOSFETs and no OCP. Though to be splitting the load over a wider amount of parts does take off a lot of that load.


----------



## reflex99

here, i'll make a comparison like yours:

Chew* killed his Giga UD5.

Pioneer (and others) also killed a Giga, although it was a really low end board.

THE UD5 IS NOW A TERRIBLE BOARD WITH FAIL VRM's WE MUST CONDEMN THEIR ENTIRE LINE!!!!!!!11

Doesn't make sense to me either


----------



## fazio93

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


That would be two failures on boards just about sharing VRM design. Though you are right about the failure =/= trend thing, but MSI boards have been particularly known to have issues with VRM quality; I am indeed waiting on more failures to happen before I make serious adjustments in my suggestions.

It should be kept in mind that adding phases may not necessarily solve the problem of having low quality MOSFETs and no OCP. Though to be splitting the load over a wider amount of parts does take off a lot of that load.


isn't it the poor chokes used which causes the vrm failure?


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fazio93;13485480*
> isn't it the poor chokes used which causes the vrm failure?


That was pointed out from a guy on Intel forums concerning how VRMs may fail.

@reflex: The Gigabyte board problem is limited to fewer boards of much, much older design than the UD5, and as for Gigabyte there is no widespread problem. As for MSI, the problem appears widespread and to do with more than just amount of phases but also MOSFET quality and lack of OCP. It seems justifiable that an improvement in one thing (amount of phases) may not result in the improvement in another; I think we can go by a rule of thumb that a VRM system is only strong as its weakest segment.


----------



## reflex99

I was using giga as an example.

I was likening it to what you are doing with MSI.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Actually, the low end Gigabyte boards DO have a trend of failure. Which is why I do not recommend Gigabyte boards. Well, that mixed with their LACK of customer service.

If you look at ANY of the low level 7x0 series boards, they're all the same. All of the 3+1 boards are. 760G, 780G, and 785G all share that same problem. I know, they did improve the design a little with a later revision, on I believe the 785G. But that doesn't change their older ones.


----------



## Dromihetes

The cheapest choices from Gigabyte mobos would be from UD3 series up of course.I wouldn t go lower for normal usage what to say about overclocking..
Unfortunatelly in the AMD mobo business MSI does t have a clear range split.The AMD range seems very poor quality wise no matter the price range ,at least for the moment.


----------



## xd_1771

If anyone hasn't noticed, a new "List of confirmed VRM failures", created with Google Docs, has taken over the first post of this thread


----------



## reflex99

really goin nuts with the Google docs ever since i showed you them aren't you...


----------



## Heavy MG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13596868*
> If anyone hasn't noticed, a new "List of confirmed VRM failures", created with Google Docs, has taken over the first post of this thread


Nice update!


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;13597755*
> really goin nuts with the Google docs ever since i showed you them aren't you...


The colours, ohh the colours








So much better and more attractive - plus I can fit in more info i.e. does this mobo have known problems


----------



## langer1972

Great job XD.


----------



## W4rlock

well took me awhile to read all of this, but it was very good








I suppose my CHIV will do fine with my 1090T for some nice OCing. Its possible to check mosfet temp on CHIV?


----------



## listen to remix

Would using the Lian Li A05 case help with these motherboards? That case allows the back fan to take cool air straight to the VRMs before reaching the CPU heatsink


----------



## xd_1771

There is a way to angle some of the airflow towards the VRMs? That would work. Utilizing case airflow can help in cooling of motherboard components.

@ W4rlock: I'm pretty sure the CHIV has one of the temp sensors listed in HWMonitor being the VRM temp sensor.


----------



## W4rlock

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


There is a way to angle some of the airflow towards the VRMs? That would work. Utilizing case airflow can help in cooling of motherboard components.

@ W4rlock: I'm pretty sure the CHIV has one of the temp sensors listed in HWMonitor being the VRM temp sensor.



yeah i found it out hehehe XD i needed the pro version XD

regarding the airflow.. i was thinking in... maybe... mood up my panel and try to put in a nice fan. that will be alittle hard for me cause i dont have any tools at all. First i think i will remove and TIM the whole stuff again and pray that my OCing wont do much damage XD


----------



## langer1972

This 2 me would be good to place on MB to cool VRM'S.

http://store.antec.com/Product/cooli...5-75018-9.aspx


----------



## Catscratch

Wow, according to the list, MSI stopped quality vrms since my mobo :0


----------



## Atomfix

Stick this thread


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Catscratch;13758333*
> Wow, according to the list, MSI stopped quality vrms since my mobo :0


There was the K9A2 CF-F that was doing sparks with over 95W TDP CPU-s while the Nikos mosfets on it had no heasink








Same generation of MSI mobo as the Platinum.


----------



## reflex99

The CF was just a odball for the time...

MSi's dev team kinda just went braindead for a split second while they released that board.....


----------



## Catscratch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dromihetes;13759102*
> There was the K9A2 CF-F that was doing sparks with over 95W TDP CPU-s while the Nikos mosfets on it had no heasink
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same generation of MSI mobo as the Platinum.


You of all ppl know Platinum has better parts







And technically CF launched later


----------



## Dromihetes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Catscratch;13770704*
> You of all ppl know Platinum has better parts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And technically CF launched later


Platinum was/is an awesome board ,no doubt about it ,the only draw back was the SB 600 south bridge.
Didn t know the CF was released later







With proper mosfets it would have been a success as well.

reflex99 ,the schematics may have been made for some MOSFET type and the factory boys and girls installed something else to cut costs.Also quality control failed.

Lets see the new MSI stuff now.Maybe some MSI people took a lesson.


----------



## reflex99

They did. The GD70's are very good boards.

Look over on HWbot, with deneb they are boss.

Thuban kills them though.


----------



## sixor

my mobo is doing [email protected] 1.408-1.424 vcore hasn´t blow up yet XD


----------



## thrasherht

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sixor;13784077*
> my mobo is doing [email protected] 1.408-1.424 vcore hasn´t blow up yet XD


higher quality components.


----------



## xd_1771

The components on the 785GM-US2H are higher quality, but still fairly risky. I know two users now who experienced cap squeal/VRM squeal when this board was loaded with a high TDP CPU (125W x4) and overclock, despite that one of them used VRM cooling. I highly recommend you back it down.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sixor;13784077*
> my mobo is doing [email protected] 1.408-1.424 vcore hasn´t blow up *yet* XD


..


----------



## sixor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13784197*
> The components on the 785GM-US2H are higher quality, but still fairly risky. I know two users now who experienced cap squeal/VRM squeal when this board was loaded with a high TDP CPU (125W x4) and overclock, despite that one of them used VRM cooling. I highly recommend you back it down.


ok thanks for the warnings, i´ll just keep using it like that,


----------



## cdoublejj

So was I the only one popping boards with an intel? I fried all 3 of mine.


----------



## xd_1771

Balla just told me about his various skirmishes with the ASUS M4A785-M. He's apparently killed 4 of them on high power consumption processor.... 3 times with cooling on. I have no idea how he does it, but it's going to have to go on the "List of confirmed failure" list


----------



## Atomfix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13836330*
> Balla just told me about his various skirmishes with the ASUS M4A785-M. He's apparently killed 4 of them on high power consumption processor.... 3 times with cooling on. I have no idea how he does it, but it's going to have to go on the "List of confirmed failure" list


Just a matter of luck I suppose, Maybe they just didn't have good quality phases on them boards :/


----------



## reflex99

balla is known to troll amd sometimes.

maybe ask for pics


----------



## Atomfix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;13836670*
> balla is known to troll amd sometimes.
> 
> maybe ask for pics


Balla is sound


----------



## reflex99

suuuuuuuuuuure.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BallaTheFeared;13836520*
> I dunno if the mosfets went or something else.. There was no physical damage, however the boards would no longer post and swapping out the boards fixed the issue.


I think I'll hold out on calling them VRM fails for now... I'm remarking them with a grey bar (needs more confirmation or details) on my confirmed failures doc.


----------



## goobs

Because I never saw this thread prior to building my system, I didn't get a better motherboard- lol. I have an asus m4a78LT-M LE, which supports 95w cpu. On the newegg product reviews, many people have been using the board with a phenom ii 555 be unlocked to quad core, and even overclocking it as x4. I've been running it locked x2 at 4ghz with a rosewill z1 heatsink and haven't really had problems- just occasionally my games crash, lockup or freeze for 20seconds but I think it's a video driver or GPU problem.

My question is- if I were to unlock and run quad-core (if my cpu unlocks), what's the worst that could happen in the event of a disaster? I don't mind buying a better motherboard, so if it fries I wouldn't be heartbroken. Are other components at risk? RAM, GPU, CPU and my SSD? I would be rather upset to lose that stuff. I have really good airflow in my case and some heatsinks I can put on mosfets.

To my understanding, if my board fries- I can just buy a nice board and swap all my other components over and reinstall windows. Is this correct?


----------



## reflex99

Unlikely to damage anything.

CPU maybe, but beyond that, it is unlikely.

Not impossible, but unlikely


----------



## Kokin

Quote:



Originally Posted by *goobs*


Because I never saw this thread prior to building my system, I didn't get a better motherboard- lol. I have an asus m4a78LT-M LE, which supports 95w cpu. On the newegg product reviews, many people have been using the board with a phenom ii 555 be unlocked to quad core, and even overclocking it as x4. I've been running it locked x2 at 4ghz with a rosewill z1 heatsink and haven't really had problems- just occasionally my games crash, lockup or freeze for 20seconds but I think it's a video driver or GPU problem.

My question is- if I were to unlock and run quad-core (if my cpu unlocks), what's the worst that could happen in the event of a disaster? I don't mind buying a better motherboard, so if it fries I wouldn't be heartbroken. Are other components at risk? RAM, GPU, CPU and my SSD? I would be rather upset to lose that stuff. I have really good airflow in my case and some heatsinks I can put on mosfets.

To my understanding, if my board fries- I can just buy a nice board and swap all my other components over and reinstall windows. Is this correct?


Most likely only the VRMs will fry and the rest of the board and attached components will be fine. When my board's VRMs fried, they didn't even leave any smell nor any burn marks. Rest of my parts were fine though. Good luck on unlocking!


----------



## xd_1771

The M4A78LT-M LE is a 3+1 phase, not very optimal for high power consumption CPU, however it will protect you from any VRM overload/overheat and chance of failure as per ASUS standard. What many of the people on Newegg probably don't realize is that their CPU may not be running full speed during load, due to VRM overload causing thermal throttling to protect not the CPU but the VRMs. That should be the same in your case, in case of overload. I must stress that due to this, your performace may be impacted if you unlock, and the unlock may end up not being worth it, for such protection may simply activate way too often for your computer to be properly usable at full load. You should invest in a different motherboard if you can.


----------



## Fortivo

I burnt my DFI 790FXB M2RSH








just saying.

if anyone is interested it still worked after except I'm guessing it became 3+1


----------



## reflex99

Soviet Voltage regulators work even when broken!


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;13865060*
> Soviet Voltage regulators work even when broken!


In Soviet Russia regulator break you!


----------



## Fortivo

In fact I ran it over a year after that big poof of smoke







I miss it already ._.


----------



## thrasherht

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fortivo;13864927*
> I burnt my DFI 790FXB M2RSH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just saying.
> 
> if anyone is interested it still worked after except I'm guessing it became 3+1


you still have the board, I will gladly take it if it still works


----------



## xd_1771

You burnt an M2RSH? Explain please


----------



## thrasherht

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13867385*
> You burnt an M2RSH? Explain please


I was wondering the same thing. These boards are rock solid.


----------



## Butter on Toast

This is why I bought the Sabertooth P67. I've seen this guy with the VCORE temps at 100ºc and he is still running it fine (SingularityComputers) or something like that. Plus, the ratings on those chokes and MOSFETS at 120+ºc *drool* And I think ChipHell says it has 4 fets per phase or something like that.

PS
AM2 boards seriously suck. At least my M2r-FVM seriously sucked big time. It broke six friggin times at STOCK. STOCK. With tons of cooling.

BTW My VCORE temps never pass 60ºc. Which is Epic, I think.


----------



## xd_1771

Butter on Toast: VRM failures or unproven?


----------



## Fortivo

I did 4.3ghz stable on my old 550 voltage was probably over 1.45~1.5
Playing some Cod4 and bam shutdown. Tried to start up fans light up and cpu smokes like mad.
Pull apart the heatsink and I see a mosfet with a massive burnt hole.
I still had 3 years of warranty left so I didn't bother with RMA and just continued to use it on 3.5ghz for another 1.5 years.


----------



## Catscratch

Here's a thought.

Some people do 9 12 24(insane) hours of stress test, %100 cpu which means %100 mosfet. How can you be sure that doesn't significantly lower lifespan of mosfets, etc. And people do this how many times ? Not talking about the cpu itself but the mobo parts that has to feed cpu. They never go %100 for a long period or at least breathe when you do nothing computer or turn it off. But 12-24 hour stress test ? Phew.

Aren't there some games which uses %100 cpu and gpu ? Yes there are but they never raise heat as much as those burn tests so it might not be as damaging.


----------



## fazio93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Catscratch;13880230*
> Here's a thought.
> 
> Some people do 9 12 24(insane) hours of stress test, %100 cpu which means %100 mosfet. How can you be sure that doesn't significantly lower lifespan of mosfets, etc. And people do this how many times ? Not talking about the cpu itself but the mobo parts that has to feed cpu. They never go %100 for a long period or at least breathe when you do nothing computer or turn it off. But 12-24 hour stress test ? Phew.
> 
> Aren't there some games which uses %100 cpu and gpu ? Yes there are but they never raise heat as much as those burn tests so it might not be as damaging.


as long as more heat/voltage is going through your pc parts, lifespan will decrease but not by much. you will still more likely have newer parts by the time your current parts die

btw gta iv raises my cpu temp more than stress testing


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Catscratch;13880230*
> Here's a thought.
> 
> Some people do 9 12 24(insane) hours of stress test, %100 cpu which means %100 mosfet. How can you be sure that doesn't significantly lower lifespan of mosfets, etc. And people do this how many times ? Not talking about the cpu itself but the mobo parts that has to feed cpu. They never go %100 for a long period or at least breathe when you do nothing computer or turn it off. But 12-24 hour stress test ? Phew.
> 
> Aren't there some games which uses %100 cpu and gpu ? Yes there are but they never raise heat as much as those burn tests so it might not be as damaging.


if your VRMs are at max capacity while only stress testing, you should invest in a better board.


----------



## Butter on Toast

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13873910*
> Butter on Toast: VRM failures or unproven?


Most likely VRMs. It's a 3+1 power phase board... jeeez. no solid caps, all with coils, iron chokes...
facepalm
Won't POST. But it's an OEM mobo. M2R-FVM


----------



## InerTia*

I have almost lifetime warentees on all of my major parts, come on 4.0GHz!

But a very factual, and major post now days.. Good luck guys and great thread!


----------



## lukeibob

AMD Phenom 9950 B.E

Overclocked from 2.6GHZ to 3.0GHZ , Stable on a Board with a 3+1 Power Design

Voltage increase from 1.3000V to 1.3500V


----------



## Lum4r

Explosive failure with an MSI 870-G45 with a Phenom X6 1090t at stock settings. Which I had seen this thread first, I'd have known that the "125W max" was a load of crap.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lum4r;13899129*
> Explosive failure with an MSI 870-G45 with a Phenom X6 1090t at stock settings. Which I had seen this thread first, I'd have known that the "125W max" was a load of crap.


Really?








You should tell us about it, perhaps provide pictures. The more data we can collect, the more we can assume about certain motherboards and which processors can be safely run at what levels with them.

Have you been on OCN before to check/lurk around/post anything, it seems to be your first post here. Welcome to the site!


----------



## Lum4r

Thanks for the kind welcome.
I've attached a picture of what I think is a transistor that blew. I don't have the best camera, but you can plainly see the small hole it made when it popped. Here is a high-def image of the mother board, courtesy of Newegg. It's the third transistor from the right.

Here's the full specs of the system:
-Rosewill 530W PSU w/ 41 amp single 12v rail
-The offending 870-G45
-A Phenom II X6 1090t at stock settings
-A cheap Rosewill heatsink; outperforms stock (or so I've heard)
-4GB (2x2GB) Hynix PC3-1333 RAM w/ 9-timings
-1 IDE DVD RW Drive
-3 SATA HDDs
-Geforce 9600 GT
-3 case fans

Here's exactly what happened. I put all of that stuff high-tech equipment into a case. Everything was checked and double-checked and ready for launch. I start the system up, and lo and behold everything working in perfect harmony. But this peaceful symphony would soon end badly. The first thing I wanted to do was make sure everything was stable, so I loaded up good ol' Prime95 for some torture trials. Not 30 seconds in, my computer shuts down. 'Ok,' I say aloud to myself, 'That's not good.' So I immediately unplug my PSU, and at this point I'm pretty sure it's overloaded, so I unplug the power to my extra HDDs and the DVD drive. I plug the PSU back in and try to start it back up, and what do I see? SPARKS! Straight out of the 12v plug for the CPU. I unplug it again and look over the motherboard carefully. Seeing nothing wrong I figure one of the capacitors hadn't discharged after the system shut off, and it was just some static looking for ground. I power the computer with the PSU unplugged to discharge it and attempt to start the machine again. Sure enough, it boots without fail. Now I think, 'Ok, I just need to go to Newegg and return this PSU while my system is still operational.' I get back to Windows and I start up my web browser, but before I can navigate anywhere, it shuts off again. This time it's not so quiet, however, producing an audible pop and sizzle. That's when the transistor went. And now here I am. On my old computer, I might add.

So the mobo is RMAing back to Newegg, along with the PSU in favor of two more reliable parts. There probably wasn't anything wrong with the PSU, but whatever gives me an excuse to get something higher quality.


----------



## xd_1771

That's on one of the main phases feeding the CPU. It appears to be the third transistor that they used in place of a proper MOSFET driver this time around (using a third transistor is *cheaping out on the VRM design*!) Looks like it simply blew.

What was this rosewill heatsink? A tower heatsink or did it blow down onto the mobo


----------



## Lum4r

Tower, the air went up and out. Here's a link:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-199-_-Product


----------



## reflex99

3 transistor isn't really cheaping out.

more like meeting a price point, which is what they wanted the G45 to do.


----------



## xd_1771

That's a link to the PSU. What was the heatsink you used?


----------



## Lum4r

Here's the heatsink:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-056-_-Product


----------



## xd_1771

Ah, simple tower cooler. Not very high, but does blow over those VRMs. They didn't get any cooling, which added to the problem & risk.
Simple 3rd transistor is a way to lower the cost, but it can sacrifice quality and ability of a VRM system.

Your situation has been noted in the list of confirmed failures. Thanks for noting! Hopefully someone else will know before bad things happen, by looking at the list and seeing your example.


----------



## Lum4r

Yeah, it's all pretty funny for me. I happened to sign up for a shoprunner trial, so they're covering return costs. Net cost to me for this oversight: $0. We should all be so lucky.

I'd also like to point out the irony of the fact that the installation guide that came with the board uses the marketing phrase "Big bang" on the font.


----------



## Poptarts

what about the msi 770-g45? ;o if its gunna blow up or catch on fire im getting a better mobo


----------



## reflex99

it's fine for your athlon X3


----------



## xd_1771

The 870-G45 is based directly off the VRM design here. However, running the x3 450 as is (no unlock) should be fine


----------



## DizturbedOne

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;12416162*
> Have you considered Biostar's TA890GXE?
> Same chipset, similar (better?) features, lower price even. And I've found Biostar VRMs to be overall better.
> Just no CrossfireX (But the thought of having two cards next to each other without any space in between [GPU fans...choking... overheating...].... ehhh....)


My Biostar has Xfire...? It is the FXE, not GXE.

Even came with the physical bridge for cards that don't support it through the PCIe

I do love this board, first overclocking board I've had, and it has made things very easy to understand and dive in at first, with all of the features to get deeper and deeper into it as time goes on.

Just had to post to give the Biostar TA890FXE a thumbs up!









And an AWESOME post. This is the most information I've been able to find on VRM's in one place, and I now feel pretty comfortable with my basic knowledge of them after having poured over it a couple times. PLUS REP THIS MAN


----------



## xd_1771

The TA890FXE should support the full scale x16-x16 CrossfireX. The GXE (mATX solution, entirely different board too) has a chipset that supports CrossfireX, but does not have the PCI-E slots to accomodate it. That board of yours despite the low phase count is one of the most robust out there VRM-wise actually







no known/rampant problems. A VRM blew for someone I knew once on that board, but that can be considered an odd one out.


----------



## xd_1771

Looks like we may have hit another peak in VRM failure incidents, similar to February-March of this year when some 3 or more were being reported daily. Past 3 days in a row have seen recorded VRM incidents, with a few more from slightly earlier. 3 of them happened with CPUs at stock speed. The majority seem to be happening with aftermarket CPU cooling installed, further boosting that trend.


----------



## HunterAMG

This thread should be sticked.


----------



## reflex99

welcome to summer.

Most of OCN just got out of school=on PC more often=more time for failure to occur


----------



## el gappo

Can you label the ZOMG DR MOS IS THA BEST EVER boards there







Man they pile up fast.

Need to make MSI and GIGA aware of this thread so they can stop prating about.


----------



## reflex99

Driver mosfets are better.....

if implemented correctly

X58A-OC uses them. you cant honestly tell me it is bad.


----------



## el gappo

On paper yes but they sure seem to be massively unreliable. 1 tiny bit of condensation they go bang. Add the fact that a lot of these boards have nothing in the way of cpu protection I would rather steer clear and keep my chip tbh.

Maybe the newer 50 amp dr mos gigabyte are using now are better? 
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=1#post4879346
Maybe not.

Expecting this thread to get interesting with 8 cores


----------



## AMW1011

So I read this and looked up my board, the Biostar T5XE CFX+SLI and apparently it is 4+2+2. Is this good? From my understanding, it should be plenty, but I want to make sure.


----------



## snelan

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Tw34k*


Stick this thread!


This. This is the longest, most in depth article I've seen in a looong time.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:



Originally Posted by *AMW1011*


So I read this and looked up my board, the Biostar T5XE CFX+SLI and apparently it is 4+2+2. Is this good? From my understanding, it should be plenty, but I want to make sure.


P55 boards are usually X+X as they have no IGP to power.

probably 6+2

EDIT: nvm, looks like 4+2 from here


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:



Originally Posted by *reflex99*


P55 boards are usually X+X as they have no IGP to power.

probably 6+2

EDIT: nvm, looks like 4+2 from here


Yep your right, their specs are confusing.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:



Originally Posted by *el gappo*


Expecting this thread to get interesting with 8 cores










You can't seriously be predicting that Bulldozer 8 cores will blow boards even more rampantly than the Phenom II x6?









I mean, sure it's 8 cores, but with CMT/shared resources and on 32nm

Also... [click here] for the 2nd VRM fail of the day, on 3rd day in a row (4th day in a row on certain timezones)

Trends in when VRM failures happen seem weird. Sure it may be summer, but earlier when it was February-March when everyone still had school, boards were blowing like there was no tomorrow!


----------



## FragZero

Picked up a X6- M4A87TD/USB3 combo very cheap last week. 4+1 phases, seemed a nice combo untill Bulldozer.

Horrible board, i'm not afraid to blow the vrm... since it starts to throttle even at stock mhz/voltage (3.2 - 1.25v) and low tempts (38Â°c)

Now to find a decent 990fx board...


----------



## xd_1771

Throttling on boards with lower end VRMs - if not total VRM failures - are actually also a very common sight among users with ASUS motherboards that are lower end, and higher end CPUs. This is how ASUS gets low end 3+1 phase and 4-phase to pass the test and ratify for 125W processor, even though they may not be capable. Sometimes they throttle 125W processors even if at stock speed & stock cooler. This may allow for safe operation, but not reliable operation, at full load. Gigabyte does not bother to ratify most of their 3+1 phase for a 125W at all. Other manufacturers are just dumb and do it anyway, despite that there may be lack of proper VRM protection and even cooling on these certain mobos.


----------



## FragZero

It's fine in games, the vrm's do not run hot. It only happens during prime etc.

Are there any nice 990fx motherboards with decent vrm's? (m-atx if possible)

Very tempted to just order one now and get rid of this crappy asus. It's fine for games, it hasn't throttled yet while playing BC2 even with a mild overclock (3.7 - 1.35v) but not being able to run prime makes me lose confidence in my motherboard :'(.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13973090*
> You can't seriously be predicting that Bulldozer 8 cores will blow boards even more rampantly than the Phenom II x6?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, sure it's 8 cores, but with CMT/shared resources and on 32nm
> 
> Also... [click here] for the 2nd VRM fail of the day, on 3rd day in a row (4th day in a row on certain timezones)
> 
> Trends in when VRM failures happen seem weird. Sure it may be summer, but earlier when it was February-March when everyone still had school, boards were blowing like there was no tomorrow!


spring break


----------



## xd_1771

Aside from being in mostly february, it also ended in very early march, before the break.
Perhaps it just happens


----------



## Xyresic

I was about to buy an MSI 870-G45 motherboard when I ran into this thread, and I just had to register to OCN







Great thread, and I learned alot

Now that the idea of the 870-G45 was blasted out of my mind, I'm a little bit stuck as to which motherboard I should purchase...
I was looking at this board: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131647 Its an 8+2 power phase, considerably more pricey than the 870-G45, but being able to overclock without it blowing the vrm's in my face is well worth it.
Is this a good choice? I was considering buying the "Enzotech MOS-C10" copper heatsinks for the motherboard and I have a small quiet (yet good airflow) 40mm fan I might use and try and figure out a way to place it over the heatsinks.
Or would the 870-G45 be fine with the copper heatsinks?
Any other suggestions, or what do you think?

I'll be trying to unlock and overclock a Phenom II X2 555 BE (or 560 BE, still haven't decided).
Sorry if I shouldn't be posting questions here :\ (new guy)


----------



## Kratthew D. Kraids

The M4A87TD EVO is a more than capable board, I would feel much safer using that than a sub-par motherboard.


----------



## xd_1771

The 870-G45 actually has multiple VRM design problems in different locations, and may blow despite VRM heatsinks.

A great motherboard with a decent quality 4+1 design that should take an unlocked Ph II x2, at the same price range, would be the

  ASRock 870 iCafe .
If you're looking for absolute reliability & stability with a larger power phase, go for a    GA-870A-UD3 (which I recommend over that M4A87TD EVO due to current pricing).
If you're also interested in expanding to the future AMD FX Series processor, this AM3+ ASUS M5A97 EVO would be a great choice.


----------



## FragZero

Is there any board with a 990 chipset which has more then decent vrm's? I'm so close to throwing this asus crap out of the window. 1.35v - 3.6ghz and it decided to throttle after a while... *** is this.

I'll probably watercooling after i get a bulldozer so decent vrms are a requirement! I'd prefer m-atx but seems there are no highend m-atx boards for AMD. (matx = more clearance in my little lian-li case







)


----------



## xd_1771

Most of the 900 chipset boards released so far feature at least a quality VRM design. A great direct replacement for your current mobo would be the ASUS M5A97 EVO.

With throttling, squealing, and other things now being nearly as rampant an issue as total VRM failures themselves, I am now listing them down in the confirmed failures list (under a separate tab labelled "Miscellaneous non-failures"). I'm looking back and collecting examples at the moment.


----------



## Sin0822

you should check out this 8+1 phase llano board i have its voltage regulation is impressive, i have never sen a board provide the voltage i set and not droop.


----------



## xd_1771

Is it from Gigabyte?
That's actually a 6+2+2







(x86 processor + graphics procesor + IMC)


----------



## T34 master

I have been doing a bit of OCing on my rig, completely oblivious to these vrm risks. i got to about 3.8ghz max but was having lots of performance issues so i went back to stock. I will try again soon since reading up some more (think I made a basic mistake). i'm guessing that my m/b is 4+1? with a 95w tdp on my cpu how high is safe to take it? I noticed when i bought the m/b that the mosfets didn't have a heatsink, i also noticed holes either side of them where one could be clipped in but where would I get a heatsink that would fit this space?

EDIT: it says something about phases on my m/b box (i'l check when i get home) also it says it supports up to 140w cpu's.


----------



## xd_1771

Yes, that is 4+1. The CPU is locked to 3 cores (not 4) right?
With the stock cooler, you are providing VRM cooling through airflow


----------



## Nixuz

Gotta ask xd, since you made reference to an ASRock blowing an 8+2 before...
Is my mobo is a good pace as far as VRMs go?!?!?.
Eh...not like I'm going to buying a new one soon anyway...


----------



## reflex99

Its fine.

1 failure is not reason for any sort of worry.


----------



## T34 master

yes locked at 3 (would need new mobo to unlock 4th). thats what I thought. I still want to heatsink it if possible, thinking about cutting a slice off an old heatsink then thermal taping it on... way to go?


----------



## Rayleyne

Posting about the death of my MSI 980A G65

I was foolish when i bought the board, i figured it can handle Tri sli, it should handle overclocking, well i was wrong, The second i put my 1090T to 4ghz on 1.4V the whole thing went up in smoke during stress testing, and i could smell it two days after.


----------



## reflex99

x6 + board not designed for it....bad idea.

seems less fail prone when with X4


----------



## xd_1771

The 890FX Deluxe5 is a better and actively cooled design. I wouldn't be worried. The 880G 8+2 fail was an odd one out it seems.


----------



## Inteller

Just found this thread, and great job in explaining things, for both, the novice and experienced!

Excellent job xd_1771


----------



## xd_1771

Thanks! I also decided on a new name to ease the confusion on what this article is really about









Some of you might have noticed the increase in the length of the Confirmed VRM failures list. I just necroed Newegg reviews on certain boards and found tons of failure incidents that I hadn't otherwise noticed.


----------



## reflex99

neweg reviews.....









half of them probably plugged the 8-pin PCIe cable into the CPU connector


----------



## Rayleyne

Yeah, take this lesson from someone who paid the price, quality Vrms are important, and if you want to overclock you definatly need more then 3+1


----------



## xd_1771

I have noted the newegg reviews as such. Many people provide the details. However, where details aren't provided, it is noted that they are left out; if too many details are left out to prevent full confirmation, the entry is highlighted in grey.

I have also updated the "About OCP" section to read instead now "
My CPU speed is throttling even if it is stone cold!". As earlier mentioned, due to the high number of cases of CPU throttling due to overloaded VRMs, I am adding a section to the List of Confirmed failures called "Miscellaneous non-failures" (where instances thermal throttling due to VRMs will be noted) as well as increasing the awareness of such thing happening.

Rayleyne: Some people aren't convinced, that's why I made that list of confirmed failures to show the many, many examples of it happening. Members may also wish to discuss and warn others through this thread.


----------



## Inteller

I enjoyed your whole write up! A great threat to point to when certain situations arise!


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;13981228*
> Is it from Gigabyte?
> That's actually a 6+2+2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (x86 processor + graphics procesor + IMC)


that is what i thought it was 6+2+2 originally as well, but something didn't add up, so i check to see how many chokes were linked to each bank, and there were 8 linked together, and then 2 linked together. So i looked at what GB advertised, and they said 8+2, it is a 8+2 phase for the APU, the GPU i guess gets a steady voltage or just the same as the CPU voltage or CPU-NB voltage.

Here is what i find weird. The "main" PWM has one phase with integrated drivers for the CPU-NB, then it has two phases with integrated drivers for the CPU cores. THEN the "main" PWM has another 2 phases for the CPU, but without drivers. There are NO drivers lol.

Then under the heatsink I found TWO MORE PWMs, little single phase with integrated drivers PWMs. Lined up just like MOSFETs. There are 20 MOSFETs total.

Anyways then i find that the two small PWMs ALSO are wired to the main PWM.

So now I am confused LOL.

Then there is one phase for the CPU PLL off to the lower right corner of the socket.

Anyways in BIOS there is 0 way to change the GPU's voltage. The only thing even close is APU PCI-E PLL called VDDP.


----------



## Xyresic

I forgot to check back to see if I got any answers.
Thanks for the suggestions kd, but what do you think about this motherboard: http://www.amazon.com/ASRock-870-CrossFireX-Motherboard-Extreme3/dp/B003L838IE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308894164&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: ASRock Socket AM3/AMD 870/Hybrid CrossFireX/SATA3&USB 3.0/A&GbE/ATX Motherboard 870 Extreme3: Electronics[/URL] (Asrock 870 Extreme3)
Same phases as the 870-iCafe and same heatsink but with an added USB 3.0 and SATA 6GBs (some future-proofing) for 10 USD more.


----------



## reflex99

pretty much the same board.


----------



## xd_1771

@ Sin0822: It seems like the CPU + GPU may share voltage and thus share resources with the main channelings... but wow, you're right, it does seem confusing

The way I see it: the 6 chokes on the left side of the socket are split phase to 3 channels to supply the CPU. 4 MOSFETs per channel, 3 channels, split inductors.
The 4 chokes on the upper side are split into 2 phases to supply the GPU portion and IMC portion. Thus they are not heatsinked. There are 2 channels, 4 MOSFETs per channel, and split inductors again. One channel supplies the GPU portion, other supplies IMC.

That's how I determine how it could be split phase between CPU & GPU. If it wasn't split phase... well to have the CPU portion heatsinked but IMC not makes sense, but to have some of the CPU portion heatsinked and some not, it doesn't make too much sense (3 of the channels would be heatsinked, one would be bare) To have 6 phases for CPU and a large 4 phases for the IMC, also definitely doesn't make sense; the IMC does not need that many channels.


----------



## Sin0822

yea so, here is what i put together after a lot of probing and testing. The output voltage for outlined in red is the same, its the CPu core voltage, and the green is the CPU-NB voltage.


So it is 8+2, and i am guessing either the CPU and GPu use the same vcore (1.4v stock) to simplify things, or that the GPu runs off the CPU-NB voltage which is 1.125v stock. Then we have APU VDDP voltage the PCI-E PLL voltage for the APU.

I think, and I am quite certain how this works, the main PWM has its 2 phase integrated drivers and 2 phase NOT integrated (requires drivers), but is only using the Integrated drivers phases, so the main PWM is only operating in 2+1 phase mode. Then we have the other two PWMs, and their feedback circuitry + oscillation has to be synced, just like the ISL6617 allows for phase multiplication (its a "phase doubler" lol), OR they are just using the ISL6545s as drivers for the other two channels.

So in the end it has 4+1 channels, and since the drivers aren't integrated they can double each upper and lower gate FETs and operate as 4 phases, but double the output/half the load per phase. Which would make is a pretty nice design, except for the fact they could have just used two drivers, of course i have never seen Intersil drivers used, i have always seen their integrated drivers, or DrMOS. Either way they prob made use of ISL6545 b/c of the fact they probably had many already. Either way its teh most robust VRM I have seen for A75 chipset.

I will make a diagram for you tomorrow b/c this is just crazy weird, and i know you always like seeing new VRMs! lol just like me I am obsessed.


----------



## reflex99

I'm just gonna say it right here.....

Told ya' so.


----------



## xd_1771

It's so crazy and weird it nearly doesn't make sense actually.... and yet if you really think about it, it may indeed be quite the genius









Though if you have seen pictures of what's under the heatsink on that A75 board, there are 12 MOSFETs, which should - judging from usual Gigabyte 4-transistor design - correspond to 3 channels.... not 4 (i.e. split into 6 inductors, but not 8)
I have a feeling the GPU may be using/sharing the CPU-NB voltage in this case. 40nm GPUs usually operate at the lower voltages closer to 1V so it does make sense, this is on 32nm GlobalFoundries process. Plus it may better explain why on many boards you will see the MOSFETs corresponding to 3 channels sinked (i.e. for the CPU portion), while 2 aren't (so it is more like a 3+2 phase than 4+1; if it was 4+1 then for the main PWM's you'd have 3 phases sinked but 1 not, that I find still doesn't make sense whatsoever since you create a weakness) [or in the case of this mobo, 6 channels are sinked and 4 aren't]. Then again, you did state something earlier about it indeed being 8+2 because of how they were linked; I am guessing you tested that yourself?

It's probably still marketed as 4+1 or 8+2 for simplification since that is what AMD users are familiar with.


----------



## Sin0822

hey, yea I have one of these A75 boards and a llano CPU. i will take a pic when i wake up. Its advertised as 8+2, but only 4+1 phases from the PWMs. Lets put it this way, it puts out as much current as a 8+2 phase design, but operates as a 4+1 phase VRM. That is how VRMs like this operates, opposed to the Intel designs, where the 24 phase designs are true 24 phase designs even though the PWM is only 6 phase, and that is because they use those ISL6617 ICs that actually allow the PWM channels to divide into two separate and sequential phases, so in the end you have a true 24 phase waveform with every pair of FETs pulsating after each other. Here we have 4 FETs pulsating at the same time. Here we also lack the ISl6617.

I think on this board sinking was done as a courtesy lol, aluminum costs money you know.

Anyways the main PWM is a 4+1 phase PWM, the +1 phase has integrated drivers, and 2 of the 4 have integrated drivers.

Tomorrow I am going to see what pins the PWMs link to and that way i can tell exactly how it operates. ill take a pic of everything for you too, b/c this is weird ass design.

There are a total of 20 Low RDSon MOSFETs. They are paired high side and low side, and they did not use a third FET to switch in place of a driver.


----------



## xd_1771

Split-inductor (4+1 phase, 8+2 current), I'm aware of what that is; it's common among regular AM3/etc boards.

Here is how I explain my new "3+2 phase" theory:









This is the A75-D3H. You can see that this screenshot seems to further support my "3+2 phase" theory (3 phase CPU portion @ 1.4V, 2 phase GPU & IMC portion at ~1.1V). You can see that the mounting holes for the heatsink go over the MOSFETs serving the 3 primary channels. Meanwhile, on the north side of the socket, there are two phases using a smaller 2 transistor + 1 driver (or 3 transistor) design, with no choice for heatsink mounting. With the transistor design being totally different for phase # 4 and of course not covered by heatsink, there is no way this is a 4+1 phase design. On the A75-UD4H, this design would be the same except that the inductors are split (3+2 phase, 6+4 current), the 3 CPU channels are indeed heatsinked, and the 2 north-side channels make use of 4 transistors/drivers instead of 3 for better power output.

Tomorrow's test of where the +/- currents flow through each other should prove which channels belong to which.


----------



## Sin0822

Ill show you on the back of the PCB how the inductors are linked, 2 inductors are connected and then 8.

yea that board is 3+2, but on the UD4H its 4+1 which then goes to 8+2, i mean why bother adding more phases to the CPU-NB you know? On higher end boards you dont see them increasing secondary power supplies more than on the lower end boards, you know?

One more thing on that board they used MUCh less inductors than they should have, that just helps power saving and kills output, as output can only be as much as the inductor will allow, but i guess its even more cheap design. The UD4h is sub $150 as i am told.


----------



## Sin0822

here you got i finnaly got to it.
This is the easiest way to show you. It shows the back of the board and you see isolated banks on the PCB, and they can give you a general grasp of what is connected to what.


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## xd_1771

You look to be correct here, I've made necessary updates to where FM1 boards are mentioned in the article. Weird definitely how they would leave one of the PWM channel's MOSFETs unheatsinked for the APU PWM, it creates somewhat of a weak point in the design.


----------



## Sin0822

yea but the VRm never gets hot anyways with 8 phases like that, i doubt anyone will be able to pull it off with a 100watt TDp CPU, and the CPu only pulled 160 watts with the CPu core and GPu OCed to the max.


----------



## hawkeeyee

glad to see none gigabyte 890GPA-UD3H died im pushing my 1055T to 3965 with 1.4V, no prob so far...MOFSET hitting 55C with 70% constatnt load


----------



## Trudorc

Hi all !
First of all I'm french so I'll do my best to write properly but don't blame me if some grammar mistakes get in the way.









I encountered this thread (and this one) while performing my first overclock and it got me wondering about a few things:

- I got an Athlon II X3 450 (95W) on a Gigabyte GA-880GM-UD2H (4+1 phases/max TDP 125W) and it is said that I shouldn't overclock on this board with a 125W cpu, but as I only have a 95W can I overclock safely ?
- Is it only the voltage that gets mosfets hot or not ? > I currently did a light overclock on my cpu from 3.2 GHz to 3.5GHz but I also managed to undervolt it from 1.35V to 1.25 V (stable of course). Will that get my mosfets hotter or cooler ?
- I also ran my cpu at 4.0GHz-1.45V two whole weeks before seeing this mosfets thing, is that setting totally out of the question ?

NB:
- I don't have any cooling system on these mosfets but there's no heat build-up in my case.
- I don't know where is actually placed the board sensor but it doesn't exceed 35°C after hours of burn (30°C idle).
- Maybe the 2oz copper PCB from the board helps ? (or is it only a marketing thing ?)

Thanks


----------



## Blindsay

Interesting read, thanks.

Just an observation but is there some reason why that list is made up of mostly amd cpu/boards?

Also i have an Asus Rampage III extreme which is listed as 8 phase? i should be ok right?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Blindsay*


Interesting read, thanks.

Just an observation but is there some reason why that list is made up of mostly amd cpu/boards?

Also i have an Asus Rampage III extreme which is listed as 8 phase? i should be ok right?


99% of Asus mobos are perfectly safe up to the specified TDP and above.
Only a few of the cheapest models (not the Rampage







) have issues.
This is due to the high quality VRM components used by Asus and the adequate cooling of MOSFETS on the high-wattage mobos.

I'm also curious - why don't manufacturers cheap out on the Intel mobos as well? Blue Conspiracy?


----------



## ilya_

Came across this thread when searching for similar issues to mine.

I have a 1090T on a MSI 790FX-GD70. The chip was previously at 4ghz/1.4V, I was experiencing folding instability and reverted to stock settings to factor out my OC. After a few more days of folding at stock the board died.

I can confirm I have a VRM failure since the board will only power up without the 8pin plugged in.

The worst part of it all, is the board killed my test PSU which is out of warranty. (Ultra 700W) There was a loud pop, sparks flew and I got burned. The primary 12V rail on the unit is now dead. Fortunately my Seasonic x-560 would shut down before the board could do any damage to it.

I don't know if the CPU is dead as this is my only AM3 system and I have nothing else to test the CPU with. But I get a CPU POST error code (ff) when the board powers up without the 8 pin.

All the other parts are tested to be working fortunately. I'm sticking with Nvidia/Intel. ATI drivers suck and AMD lets their board partners get away with too much cheaping out on quality.


----------



## Genesis.au

wow just found this thread, only 6 months too late for me







, killed an MSi 890fxa gd70. 4.4ghz at 1.4v, never got to find out if it were stable, she blew after 15 mins of prime







.

Still stuck with the board though, got sent a new one, never bothered changing it.


----------



## xd_1771

Of course powering up without 8-pin won't POST. But it confirms VRM failure if it boots whereas having it in doesn't.

Will be updating tomorrow morning with these two incidents and another with an MSI P55 on OverclockersUK, I am so tired

ASUS Green EPU PWM controller has built in features to throttle CPU if the VRMs overheat, as protection. So they pretty much nearly never fail.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Genesis.au*


wow just found this thread, only 6 months too late for me







, killed an MSi 890fxa gd70. 4.4ghz at 1.4v, never got to find out if it were stable, she blew after 15 mins of prime







.

Still stuck with the board though, got sent a new one, never bothered changing it.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Trudorc*


Hi all !
First of all I'm french so I'll do my best to write properly but don't blame me if some grammar mistakes get in the way.









I encountered this thread (and this one) while performing my first overclock and it got me wondering about a few things:

- I got an Athlon II X3 450 (95W) on a Gigabyte GA-880GM-UD2H (4+1 phases/max TDP 125W) and it is said that I shouldn't overclock on this board with a 125W cpu, but as I only have a 95W can I overclock safely ?
- Is it only the voltage that gets mosfets hot or not ? > I currently did a light overclock on my cpu from 3.2 GHz to 3.5GHz but I also managed to undervolt it from 1.35V to 1.25 V (stable of course). Will that get my mosfets hotter or cooler ?
- I also ran my cpu at 4.0GHz-1.45V two whole weeks before seeing this mosfets thing, is that setting totally out of the question ?

NB:
- I don't have any cooling system on these mosfets but there's no heat build-up in my case.
- I don't know where is actually placed the board sensor but it doesn't exceed 35Â°C after hours of burn (30Â°C idle).
- Maybe the 2oz copper PCB from the board helps ? (or is it only a marketing thing ?)

Thanks










Voltage makes more difference than speed for VRM load. You should be fine with lighter OCs on that 95W CPU. The 880GM-UD2H uses an older Gigabyte 4+1 design from 2007-2008 that was actually known to be somewhat problematic. It's definitely risky in your case though, since you have absolutely no cooling (not even airflow) on the VRMs due to that 212+.


----------



## Trudorc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;14093732*
> Voltage makes more difference than speed for VRM load. You should be fine with lighter OCs on that 95W CPU. The 880GM-UD2H uses an older Gigabyte 4+1 design from 2007-2008 that was actually known to be somewhat problematic. It's definitely risky in your case though, since you have absolutely no cooling (not even airflow) on the VRMs due to that 212+.


Ok thanks, I'll wait for better cooling before OC'ing further then.


----------



## Darkslayer7

i have now a 8+2 phase mobo , and will upgrade to a 1090t . Is it safe to oc on it?


----------



## Ricwin

Very useful info posted here.

I'm in a similar situation here.

When i bought my motherboard, the retailer didn't lits its support for maximum of 95w CPU's. As it turns out, using a 125w CPU will kill the MOSFETs instantly.
Fortunately, I purchased an Athlon64 X2 5600+ with it at the time instead of the nice 6400+ BE.

It was by no means a budget board either. One of the earlier Crossfire boards running the 790 chipset (SB 600). A beast of a board for its time.
But now, i am certainly limited as to what can be used with it.
With a modified BIOS, it can use Phenom II CPU's, currently on an overclocked 555 BE.

But still, its something to look out forwhen purchasing a new board.
Check things like the max TDP, make sure the MOSFETs are protected and dont buy a budget board. Quite often, you'll be better off reducing you're CPU budget to buy a better motherboard, and then overclock the CPU anyway


----------



## xd_1771

Yeah the 990XA-UD3 has a much better VRM design
I think the K9A2 CF blows because it uses the NIKOS rather than INFINEON MOSFETs


----------



## Trudorc

Hi, It's me again !








After having performed what I'd like to call a "vacuum test" (I played with my vacuum over my motherboard while stressing and monitoring temps to see which sensor was located in which area and where more airflow could be useful







) I seem to have identified a sensor in the VRM section (named TMPIN2 before I renamed it).

And it seems to me that these temps are quite good and should let me overclock some more:
(Is this sensor actually where I think it is and what is the max temp not to exceed ?)

(The "Min's" values are my idle temps and the "Max's" those after a 20mn stress with Prime95. The sensor in question (VRMs/Mosfets ?) stabilized to 44°C after 5mn of stress so I don't think It will increase much more, even with a longer stress.)


----------



## xd_1771

Interesting test methology. TMPIN2 is usually the VRMs on Gigabyte boards (before 900 series).


----------



## Darkslayer7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;14117892*
> Interesting test methology. TMPIN2 is usually the VRMs on Gigabyte boards (before 900 series).


Actually Tmpin2 was the heat sensor for the NB on Gigabyte boards (7xxseries for sure , dont know yet about other series ) . it was always near the 80's (+/- 1-2c) . If i'm not mistaken .


----------



## xd_1771

well it was indeed the VRMs on my old MA790XT-UD4P


----------



## Trudorc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;14131660*
> well it was indeed the VRMs on my old MA790XT-UD4P


And it seems to be the VRMs on mine too because in idle as in load this temp increase when I increase the cpu voltage but not when I increase the NB's.

But I'm not sure it's a very accurate temp, I ran a 1h stress with prime95 at 4GHz 1.45V (instead of 3.5GHz 1.275V) and it didn't exceed 50°C (instead of 44°C) whereas my finger surely did when I touched the Mosfets...


----------



## xd_1771

I'm about to add 4 instances of Phenom II x6 1075T failing a MSI 790FX-GD70 at stock with stock cooler. That's going to look really bad on the confirmed failures list.


----------



## billy66bare

I read your article less than a week ago, and then, this.....
http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/1076540-another-msi-nf980-g65-story.html#post14358176
Thanks for this thread, though. It helped me put down "talk" of 4 phase being better and helped me get a board that won't try to burn down the RV.


----------



## Zaiber

Could someone show me a pic of the cokes with them circled or pointing at them? If they're what I think I have 4+1 but I'd like to know because this might explain why it's such a pain to overclock my CPU.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zaiber;14363247*
> Could someone show me a pic of the cokes with them circled or pointing at them? If they're what I think I have 4+1 but I'd like to know because this might explain why it's such a pain to overclock my CPU.


Yours is a 4+1. Found here. It's exactly the same board as the M3N78.


----------



## Zaiber

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;14363318*
> Yours is a 4+1. Found here. It's exactly the same board as the M3N78.


Thanks man, I guess that's why it's so hard to OC my Proc then. And I think I know what they look like now, they're black squares close to the CPU then? Mine have caps around do all of them have caps around?


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zaiber;14363346*
> Thanks man, I guess that's why it's so hard to OC my Proc then. And I think I know what they look like now, they're black squares close to the CPU then? Mine have caps around do all of them have caps around?


That'd be it, yup.







Yours has 5 of them. 4 for CPU power, 1 for IMC. So its a 4+1.


----------



## linkin93

I think LLC needs to be taken into consideration as using often results in much more voltage going through everything than is required. For regular use, have LLC on the lowest amount without being turned off is fine. Full LLC is for subzero


----------



## el gappo

Got some datasheets for a few new A75 boards iirc

Biostar TA75M+ has 2 50amp Nikos fets and 1 75amp per phase. Beefy 4+1. Think the TA75+ is the same.

With Llano's high voltage, shouldn't cause any issues.

Will check when I'm back on my rig anyway.

Whoopsie, in the wrong thread here.


----------



## pioneerisloud

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *el gappo;14363458*
> Got some datasheets for a few new A75 boards iirc
> 
> Biostar TA75M+ has 2 50amp Nikos fets and 1 75amp per phase. Beefy 4+1. Think the TA75+ is the same.
> 
> With Llano's high voltage, shouldn't cause any issues.
> 
> Will check when I'm back on my rig anyway.
> 
> Whoopsie, in the wrong thread here.


It's still relevant.









Dude, Biostar has ALWAYS had beefy phase setups, even with low counts.


----------



## spikexp

Wow. So much msi board...
And from what I see, Biostar motherboard seem to be pretty good...

Do you think I'm ok to overclock on my board with my cpu with a good cpu cooler?
Or should I really put heatsink on my mosfet?
Maybe I could get a heatsink if I cut it in a old pentium 2 heatsink (seem like aluminum). Just need to find a way to fix it...


----------



## evilsearat

Call me another casualty
Hopefully MSI will be kind enough to process the RMA so that I can sell the new one and pay for the ASUS Sabertooth I just ordered.
In related news, would anybody be interested in the purchase of a brand new MSI 890fxa-gd70 in the near future?


----------



## xd_1771

Have a datasheet on those particular nikos fets? Are they rated 25c like the ones on some problematic msi boards or hav they been improved upon?


----------



## Darkslayer7

Quote:



Originally Posted by *xd_1771*


Have a datasheet on those particular nikos fets? Are they rated 25c like the ones on some problematic msi boards or hav they been improved upon?


Rated @ 25c ? Oh my god . Fets run waay hotter that that . I have a 95W Cpu oced in a 8+2 phase (heatsinked) board , and i can feel its warm .

Imagine how hot the fets are in a 4+1 with a higher end CPU+OC ? Lava .


----------



## Biorganic

No problems here, I just wanted XD to know that I followed the advice of this thread and put heatsinks on my mobo chipset.

I got two sets of the mos-c1s and now Im good to go.

Thanks for the helpful info!!!


----------



## xd_1771

It was something pointed out by Dromihetes I think, in a discussion thread concerning MSI boards with NIKOS MOSFETs (i.e. why the K9A2 Platinum with INFINEON fets didn't fail but the K9A2 CF-F with NIKOS fets had rampant fail issues)


----------



## el gappo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;14372328*
> Have a datasheet on those particular nikos fets? Are they rated 25c like the ones on some problematic msi boards or hav they been improved upon?


No never, he probably read the wrong part.

p0603bdl 75amp

p0903bdl 50amp

Closest match I can find being;

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/205667/ETC2/P0903BDG/97/1/P0903BDG.html

Operating temperature from -55C up to 150C


----------



## 96shox

just curious, why is that its mostly AMD boards that are under scrutiny and blowing up mosfets?

Just because intel uses less wattage?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:



Originally Posted by *96shox*


just curious, why is that its mostly AMD boards that are under scrutiny and blowing up mosfets?

Just because intel uses less wattage?


No, wattage is the same, even higher for Intel. 
The reason is sabotage, IMO.


----------



## cusideabelincoln

So I read the OP, but haven't had time to skim all the posts in this thread, and I'm wondering what are (general) safe temperatures for the VRMs. It's mentioned in OP to keep the VRMs cool, but at what specific temperatures?

For reference, at idle my Gigabyte board's TMPIN2 is 39C. At stock under prime load, the VRM temp goes up to 59C. With the Phenom 925 overclocked, using the same voltage as stock, the temp goes up to 64C. With a slight voltage bump I've seen the temp peak at 71C.

I do have an aftermarket cooler, the AC Freezer 64 Pro, which actually has bottom fins bent to blow air onto the VRMs, but I haven't tested how effective it is. Also my side panel has a 250mm fan, so I'm sure that also aids in getting fresh air to the VRMs.

I have revision 1.0 of the board, which only has 3+1 design. I certainly do not want to push my overclock too far, in fact I just may run stock but I'm curious to see what the chip can do, so I'm wondering how much the VRMs on this board can handle.

Should I go after heatsinks for peace of mind? Should I try undervolting while overclocking? What do you think? Am I ticking time bomb with, let's say, an overclock to 3.4 GHz? Gigabyte does list some 140W CPUs as being supported on the rev 1.0 webpage. Also I've had an Athlon X2 5000+ Black Edition overclocked to its max, 3.1 GHz @ 1.4V, running for two and a half straight years with this board. The 5000+ chip actually ran hotter than the Phenom does; and IIRC the VRM temps were about the same.


----------



## 96shox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cusideabelincoln;14452987*
> 
> Should I go after heatsinks for peace of mind?


for $5 on ebay, WHY not...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Copper-DDR-SD-Ram-Cooler-Heat-Sink-heatsink-Ram-VGA-/190559513619?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5e3b6c13

Yes you will have to cut them to size (soft copper)


----------



## pioneerisloud

@cusideabelincoln:
I'd avoid overclocking on that board being a 3+1, heatsinked or not. Mine blew up on me at bone stock with a 95w Athlon II x4. You're actually lucky (in my book) to have NOT had a VRM failure thus far.


----------



## el gappo

Reviewing an MSI a75-g55 atm. 3+1 phase 30amp drmos fets iirc. Up against an apu with an overclocked TDP of 176watts, who's your money on?


----------



## Catscratch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cusideabelincoln;14452987*
> So I read the OP, but haven't had time to skim all the posts in this thread, and I'm wondering what are (general) safe temperatures for the VRMs. It's mentioned in OP to keep the VRMs cool, but at what specific temperatures?
> 
> For reference, at idle my Gigabyte board's TMPIN2 is 39C. At stock under prime load, the VRM temp goes up to 59C. With the Phenom 925 overclocked, using the same voltage as stock, the temp goes up to 64C. With a slight voltage bump I've seen the temp peak at 71C.
> 
> I do have an aftermarket cooler, the AC Freezer 64 Pro, which actually has bottom fins bent to blow air onto the VRMs, but I haven't tested how effective it is. Also my side panel has a 250mm fan, so I'm sure that also aids in getting fresh air to the VRMs.
> 
> I have revision 1.0 of the board, which only has 3+1 design. I certainly do not want to push my overclock too far, in fact I just may run stock but I'm curious to see what the chip can do, so I'm wondering how much the VRMs on this board can handle.
> 
> Should I go after heatsinks for peace of mind? Should I try undervolting while overclocking? What do you think? Am I ticking time bomb with, let's say, an overclock to 3.4 GHz? Gigabyte does list some 140W CPUs as being supported on the rev 1.0 webpage. Also I've had an Athlon X2 5000+ Black Edition overclocked to its max, 3.1 GHz @ 1.4V, running for two and a half straight years with this board. The 5000+ chip actually ran hotter than the Phenom does; and IIRC the VRM temps were about the same.


Are you sure it's not the CPU socket temp ? Our boards are not that far in terms of tech but I got heatsinks on them, for comparison my system(tmpin2 on openhardwaremonitor) temp never goes above 40c.

these http://cgi.ebay.com/Swiftech-MOSFET-Aluminum-Heatsinks-4-Packs-MC21-/280713314542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415bd140ee + http://cgi.ebay.com/Antec-Spot-Cool-System-Cooler-Mounts-anywhere-case-/300293760183?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45eae724b7 should be ok.


----------



## cusideabelincoln

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Catscratch;14459519*
> Are you sure it's not the CPU socket temp ? Our boards are not that far in terms of tech but I got heatsinks on them, for comparison my system(tmpin2 on openhardwaremonitor) temp never goes above 40c.
> 
> these http://cgi.ebay.com/Swiftech-MOSFET-Aluminum-Heatsinks-4-Packs-MC21-/280713314542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415bd140ee + http://cgi.ebay.com/Antec-Spot-Cool-System-Cooler-Mounts-anywhere-case-/300293760183?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45eae724b7 should be ok.


It could be, I'm not totally sure. There are two other temps (TMPIN0 and TMPIN1) not labeled, but they only change a few degrees at load than at idle and they aren't much different at idle than with my 5000+ in the system even though my Phenom is using CnQ. They are really hot, around 90C, and I think they are for the chipsets. Since TPMIN2 was said to be common for the VRMs on Gigabyte boards of this era, they seemed like a logical fit.

My core temps as reported by various programs - AMD Overdrive, HWMonitor, and Speedfan - all report the same things. The Core temps are around 30C at idle and 45-50C at load.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud;14457998*
> @cusideabelincoln:
> I'd avoid overclocking on that board being a 3+1, heatsinked or not. Mine blew up on me at bone stock with a 95w Athlon II x4. You're actually lucky (in my book) to have NOT had a VRM failure thus far.


If my board blew up at stock I would have a serious problem with Gigabyte and their false advertising. Their web page says the processor and even 125W processors will work, and I do have 95W the C3 stepping 925.

Anyway, even at stock, do those supposed VRM temps, a max of around 60C, look safe?


----------



## xd_1771

Gigabyte no longer rates their 3+1 boards 125w ready, even if they were before.
As a matter of fact, I'm at freegeek vancouver right now - in their faulty boards bin was an am2+ with fried vrms - it was a gigabyte ga-ma78lm-s2h with the 3+1 phase. I took pics, I'll upload m later.


----------



## cusideabelincoln

Hmm, well they haven't updated their CPU support list to reflect that. http://www.gigabyte.com/support-downloads/cpu-support-popup.aspx?pid=2800

In any case, I have overclocked my chip to 3.3 GHz and decreased the voltage from stock. Compared to stock my chip and VRMs are now running 5C cooler. I feel pretty confident I'll be alright. This is only a 95W C3 chip, not an older one, and I think my temps reflect that its wattage needs are safe for this board.


----------



## xd_1771

Voltage makes more of a difference in processor power consumption than the clock speed. I'm not surprised you run cooler, which is very good.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *el gappo;14459458*
> Reviewing an MSI a75-g55 atm. 3+1 phase 30amp drmos fets iirc. Up against an apu with an overclocked TDP of 176watts, who's your money on?


in b4 you know what
Personally I would like to see the 970A-G45 reviewed... apparently it uses 4 transistors per phase apart from the normal 3 now, doesn't make much sense... though I doubt anyone's going to buy it if it remains at the current price on Newegg (not very good price-performance)...


----------



## abu46

how can i measure the vrm and mosefet temps on my asus m4a87td-evo??
i use HWinfo, which sensors denote those two temps

also what should be the safe temps?


----------



## Atomfix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *abu46;14495512*
> how can i measure the vrm and mosefet temps on my asus m4a87td-evo??
> i use HWinfo, which sensors denote those two temps
> 
> also what should be the safe temps?


Get one of those lazer thermometer, point the lazer on your VRM's, and it will show you the true realtime tempature


----------



## SammyG

Reading this was pretty enlightening. But I still have a few questions I would rather ask than assume.

Here is the board I have http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128451

I was planning on getting some heatsinks and a better downward facing CPU HSF. I want to overclock my Athlon ii x3 450. I'm not looking to go too crazy with it but will I be able to up the voltage a bit with added heatsinks on the motherboard?

EDIT: Heatsinks for the VRM's


----------



## abu46

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Atomfix*


Get one of those lazer thermometer, point the lazer on your VRM's, and it will show you the true realtime tempature










sorry cant get those
isnt there any sensor/sw that can measure the temps


----------



## kevinf

@xd_1771
Since your the man when it comes to VRMs, what do you think of my attempt at this.


----------



## Raizy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atomfix;14495522*
> Get one of those lazer thermometer, point the lazer on your VRM's, and it will show you the true realtime tempature


Anything to note if they're covered by a heatsink?


----------



## xd_1771

If you can't be able to point the laser under the heatsink, point it at the heatsink then.\\

Updated the article to improve on accuracy & reliability - coinciding also with AMD Motherboard VRM Info List updates


----------



## Chrozinel

Hi OCN! First post here..
So, first i bought a GA-EP45-UD3R as a replacement when my P7N Sli Platinum died. I had my [email protected] for about a month, then suddently mosfets fried while gaming, but i first thought it was the cpu so i bought a QX9770 -.- , anyhow all the voltage settings were on auto, and i never got a BSOD and cpu temps were fine.
I ordered a GA-EP45-UD3P before i read this thread. Do you think i should buy a better heatsink for the VRMs or should i just forget oc on that board? And do you think i might have fried some other parts? I don't have another computer to test the parts on..
And yes, i know , i maybe shouldve upgraded to Z68, but i got the parts so cheap that i thought I'd wait for Ivy Bridge instead.


----------



## xd_1771

^ Curious, the EP45-UD3R uses a heatsinked 6-phase setup, that should provide reliable power delivery.... I know this board was popular during the socket 775 era. Be sure test the other parts you might have fried such as PSU, RAM...
Might want to ensure the mounting is tight


----------



## reflex99

I'm going to guess it failed just because it is old.


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> I had my [email protected] for about a month


What was the condition of this board when you purchased it - i.e. had it been used and for how long?


----------



## Chrozinel

Could be just it being old. Idk for sure what condition it was in, I bought it from an eBay toprated seller, and he said it was in good condition, but u never know...


----------



## xd_1771

It is possible that long term degradation caused higher possibility of failure. Like PSUs, the power output capability of VRMs can degrade in the same way. At some point in the future, it may not be capable of handling - say - your 4Ghz x6 at 1.6V anymore.
--
Just updated the article yet again. Most of the real informative stuff has been moved above the VRM failures list and the content/wording has been updated for greater accuracy. You may notice some sections have been easily split up, so you can more easily find the actual info you are looking for. I've been working at making this more of a reliable reference, similar to the AMD Motherboard Information list, rather than a read-once-and-go write up.


----------



## JohnBulb

Hello! In about 5 minuets, I might be a statistic, or not. Back-story:

I have had my MSI 890 FXA-GD70 for quite a while. Very early on I noticed the VRM/NB to run insanely hot. It has been actively cooled since about day 2. Just an 80MM Vantec thermoflow hot-glued to the Video card and blowing at it keeps things sane.

Great cooling important to me because, my year-round average ambient temperature is kept near 80. I built my rig to run stock without overheating at full load around 90.

The board has been rock-solid (with some bios-versions dramatically worse than others. The current one is great.) . It is usually run at stock speeds. Today, we shall see. The only fault I can find with it is that no one at MSI will give you a straight answer about the fan headers regarding max wattage. Consequently, I have blown all but one. Heat and noise is a big issue with this board. The new one should be better.

Here is the plan:
I have done this today: http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=1963200
and it has been stable in the desktop (near idle) for a few hours.
I have also the new MSI 990FXA-GD80 on order. It is the same board (MS 7640 I believe, but a newer revision number.)
I have also cooled the ambient temperature to 72. Chip is idling at 31C core 34C. Thermalright trueblack cooler with a moderate fan. Thermal paste is aged ceramique and not fresh.

Now, Prime95. All indications point to spectacular failure almost immediately.
If I am not back in a half hour or so, I'll be camping out in the driveway waiting on UPS.

However, I have my doubts about this, So I am willing to put a (nearly) perfectly good board where my mouth is. My belief is that with adequate cooling, it should be fine.

In fact, I have more concern about the processor at these voltages and speeds and a heavy load than the board. I presume I will hit temperatures approaching 60C on the core within 30 seconds. If I get there and nothing blows up, I will discontinue the test. This assumes it is stable enough for prime.

Why? I would like to know If my confidence in this board was misplaced.
Here we go...

Updates here so as not to make a mess:
Well - that was easy. Instant reboot. Nothing blew. Ram needed adequate voltage- Duh. Also ticked up other voltages. Now at 1.525 or 1.53 depending on software.

Take 2 at 1.525/1.533 Ditto. Reboot.
Now at 1.5375 and 70.7 ambient. Pushing pretty hard here and nothing burnt up yet.

Take 3 at 1.5375 And again, Reboot. However, multicolor static on the screen and a blast of static from the speakers. I recognize that as a sign of too much voltage (with no stability benefit.)

Early conclusion: Crazy voltages and silly overclocks alone do not seem enough to cause a failure.
It must be stable enough to actually bear a full load for a period of time. Throwing up some silly numbers for benching does not seem to be of any harm.

I know from previous experience that this rig will do 4.0GHZ prime stable for at least a half hour at hotter ambient temperatures. (75 or so) because I did it last night.The numbers I think to be the NB/MOS temperatures never went above 48C. It held stable through 3 hours of video games after that.

Seems if you cool the hot stuff and only have 4 cores, the failure is neither violent nor immediate. In fact, I have seen nothing beyond standard overclocking instability for silly numbers and voltages.

I am satisfied that with 4 cores and good VRM cooling at normal room temperature, perhaps only extended periods of burn-in testing, or long term overclocks even have the possibility to cause trouble. I have no reason to believe short-term VRM related damage is even possible with proper cooling and 4 cores.


----------



## Catscratch

Run 3.9 or 4.0ghz and just work on your cpu-nb frequency. Should be more beneficial performance-wise.


----------



## JohnBulb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Catscratch;14671851*
> Run 3.9 or 4.0ghz and just work on your cpu-nb frequency. Should be more beneficial performance-wise.


I was demonstrating a very specific point and have no interest in the CPU-NB.
Quote:


> I built my rig to run stock without overheating at full load around 90.


----------



## rawsteel

My TMPIN2 seems to idle a little high on my GA-990FXA-UD5 compared to my other temps everything is at stock with no overclocking and yes my case has good ventilation room temp is cold etc.. not sure whats causing it


----------



## xd_1771

Ensure your MOSFET heatsinks are well mounted and tightened. It may help to put both thumbs on it and push down for a couple of seconds. I did that after my MOSFET heatsink (held down by push pins) actually came loose from the MOSFETs during assembly. Idle at 20C, load at just 50C


----------



## kzone75

Maybe a little off topic but I borrowed one of those laser temp guns from work the other day. I actually think TMPIN2 is related to the NB. It was a few degrees celcius below what HW monitor showed (HWM showed 48C at idle, temp reader 42C, measured on the heatsink, of course). And under stress it rose accordingly.
When I had the 770TA-UD3 Gigabyte told me that TMPIN2 is for the 770 chipset.. I believe (but not entirely sure) that TMPIN0 is for the MOSFET (which also was a few degrees lower (31C HWM/27C TR) when using the temp reader). No difference there under load though..







Even when you use your fingers, you'll notice that the MOSFET heatsink is only warm.. NB is a lot hotter.

Might have to buy one of those laser temp guns to further investigate.







I'll have to pop out the heatsinks next time and run the system without them for a while.

I hope I made some sense in this post. It's getting late.. Just wanted to let you know what I discovered..


----------



## xd_1771

^ Don't remove that Northbridge heatsink! Because newer northbridge chips are smaller due to smaller nodes, there is less area to spread the heat. That is why heatsinks have always been required on modern northbridges and southbridges, whereas on older motherboards many northbridge and southbridge chips could go fine without heatsinks (higher process node means more area to spread heat). You will KILL the 990FX northbridge the moment it is turned on without a heatsink.

Pointing at the heatsinks is in no way an accurate method of testing. Northbridge/chipset heatsink should not raise much if at all during load because all it does on the 990X/990FX is supply the northbridge/chipset lanes. You might want to ensure the VRM and northbridge heatsinks are both tight and experiment with pointing the laser at different sections of the heatsink.


----------



## kzone75

I won't remove the NB heatsink, I promise. But I did however add two plastic rings (for testing only) on the 'backside' of the VRM heatsink yesterday to make it sit tighter. The weird thing is that TMPIN0 dropped 2C then. But maybe it is just a coincidence. I am wondering if stronger springs would be a good or bad idea for making it sit even more tighter. Would it hurt anything? Might do the same on the NB if it is reasonably safe.

I know that point & shot with a laser gun is not accurate at all but I wanted to know what temps I have inside the case. Tried on different parts of the heatsinks. 3 degree difference at most.

Well, enough of my rambling for today.


----------



## .Andres

Thank you very much for this information. I now know what you meant by all those VRM comments on my threads.









I'll definitely use this information when picking out a motherboard.


----------



## GvKSkk

Here is the thread with the details and story.
http://www.overclock.net/power-supplies/1130088-did-my-power-supply-just-die.html#post15132136

AMD X6 1100T, OC at 4.0gHz with 1.408 volts.
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=2024372

Got that in before it crashed.


----------



## prjindigo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;14491567*
> Voltage makes more of a difference in processor power consumption than the clock speed. I'm not surprised you run cooler, which is very good.
> 
> in b4 you know what
> Personally I would like to see the 970A-G45 reviewed... apparently it uses 4 transistors per phase apart from the normal 3 now, doesn't make much sense... though I doubt anyone's going to buy it if it remains at the current price on Newegg (not very good price-performance)...


I've got a 970a-g45 on the way to replace an 890FXA-G65 which seems to have crossed BFG830's 12v streams when some stray voltage came in. I named it O.B. Lan Kablooie. Was a fairly impressive stray charge, it ate my cable modem too.

I was running a 1055x6 stable in an older msi 870-35 using old VGA sinks, the heat seemed to be the only real problem. You'd be surprised how many truly tech savy people, even on this board, have no clue how case ventilation works.

newegg seems to think the 970a will hold an x6 and I put a $10 on the tab to make sure they have fun with the chad if it won't. So we'll find out We or Th.

Shame to lose the BFG... it'd push 12.9 at 650w all day.


----------



## xd_1771

Today we have the first recorded 970A-G45 failure
Looks like the problems of the previous gen were passed on to the next gen, just as I had suspected. How is a massive heatsink going to help when the same transistors and lack of protection are being used...


----------



## BGL

I see a *MSI 880GM-E41* is listed here which is the board i have. I'm a bit surprised to see some one attempted to put a (edit) 125W *1055T* in this board considering *it only supports <= 95W CPUs* & it points to this link as evidence of failure: http://bit.ly/mFiGX2

I guess it shouldn't be so surprising it failed. This board should probably be removed from that list if its based upon that newegg review/failure.


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BGL;15184701*
> I see a *MSI 880GM-E41* is listed here which is the board i have. I'm a bit surprised to see some one attempted to put a *1055* in this board considering *it only supports <= 95W CPUs* & it points to this link as evidence of failure: http://bit.ly/mFiGX2
> 
> I guess it shouldn't be so surprising it failed. This board should probably be removed from that list if its based upon that newegg review/failure.


Actually no, it's still MSI's error, as they list 1055T as *supported*, but as 95W also, and as far as AMD official data goes, 1055 doesn't have 95W version, 1065 does.

http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/processors/phenom-ii/Pages/phenom-ii-model-number-comparison.aspx

So according to MSI, that mobo supports that CPU.


----------



## BGL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850;15185676*
> Actually no, it's still MSI's error, as they list 1055T as *supported*, but as 95W also, and as far as AMD official data goes, 1055 doesn't have 95W version, 1065 does.
> 
> http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/processors/phenom-ii/Pages/phenom-ii-model-number-comparison.aspx
> 
> So according to MSI, that mobo supports that CPU.


In the list of CPUs supported for the 880GM-E41 (on MSI's website) the 95W 1055T is listed, however in *the list here says a 125W 1055 was used* in that motherboard. Which was never supported.

_"4/4/2011MSI 880GM-E41AMD Phenom II x6 1055T [125W]OverclockedStockhttp://bit.ly/mFiGX2"_

http://www.msi.com/product/mb/880GM-E41.html#/?div=CPUSupport

I've personally never been confused about whether or not my motherboard supports *any* 125W cpu. The supported CPU list is clear about only supporting <= 95W CPUs


----------



## xd_1771

^ Trust the more updated 95W rating. It is at least in line with GIGABYTE and ASUS's ratings for their 3+1 phase boards.


----------



## craigs911

im going to book mark this glad to see my Foxconn A6GMV is not up there this sucker took 1.62v for my max OC on my athlon


----------



## Samurai Batgirl

I probably did a really good job of skipping over the obvious answer...but...

Would all of this mean that the ASUS Crosshair V, with it's two CPU power connectors (8-pin and 4-pin), would be the best for overclocking?
Or
Would the ASRock Fatal1ty 990FX be better for overclocking because of the 12 + 2 design?

Thanks and sorry for derping


----------



## reflex99

you aren't going to be maxing out a single 8 pin connector any time soon.


----------



## Samurai Batgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99;15209467*
> you aren't going to be maxing out a single 8 pin connector any time soon.


Sounds like the ASRock is the best way to go, yeah?


----------



## ALUCARDVPR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Samurai Batgirl;15209709*
> Sounds like the ASRock is the best way to go, yeah?


I'd go with the Crosshair V, it's an amazing board for overclocking - one of the best I've ever seen. It also happens to be the board AMD broke the world overclocking record with







Bulldozer 8150 @ 8.429GHZ on the Crosshair V.


----------



## Samurai Batgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ALUCARDVPR;15209867*
> I'd go with the Crosshair V, it's an amazing board for overclocking - one of the best I've ever seen. It also happens to be the board AMD broke the world overclocking record with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bulldozer 8150 @ 8.429GHZ on the Crosshair V.


But the Fatal1ty board has more phases! D:


----------



## Kryton

Here is something I ran into with my MSI board.
I did the tests for checking to see if the VRM's were at fault. Doesn't do anything with the 8 pin connector plugged in except turn on and stay that way and with it unplugged it will also turn on and show the FF code.

In both instances it will not cutoff on it's own, just sits there and runs.

I do realize the VRM's could very well be shot but I noticed this when I examined the board. There are no burn spots anywhere on the board itself front or back and all else looks OK except for what's in the pic. Note the apparent gap between the very top of 1R1 and it's sides, like a box lid that's not completely closed, all others appear normal.
You may have to zoom in a bit to see it but it's there.

I'm thinking it may be possible to fix this one IF this the root of the problem and it looks to be. I would need a donor board to see if a fix such as what I'm thinking would work and to try it. As long as the 1R1 resistor is good on the donor it may work.

What do you guys think, could this fix the problem with this one?
If it looks worth trying I'll need to find a donor board so I can try it and see. I've fixed a few boards before and at least know how to replace these components, soldering/desoldering parts/stuff/whatever is part of what I do for a living anyway.


----------



## xd_1771

Might as well bump this, since you guys nabbing FX CPUs are going to need some serious quality VRMs.

Kryton: ^ I don't believe a slightly opened 1R1 choke (it might even be by design) would be a problem.


----------



## Kryton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771;15311583*
> Might as well bump this, since you guys nabbing FX CPUs are going to need some serious quality VRMs.
> 
> Kryton: ^ I don't believe a slightly opened 1R1 choke (it might even be by design) would be a problem.


Have to agree with you on that, probrably not.
I did note that the 1R1 compared to the others has a little discoloration (Brownish tint) to it. The others in the pic also show slight hints of this but the amount on 1R1 is much greater overall making me think it got too hot and did what an older style cap would do hence the reference to it's "Lid" bulging. All other parts like it I've ever seen before in working order have not had this appearance so that's why I place it in question.
Also noted my 775 ASRock board has three or four of these 1R1's on it and none have this appearance.

As stated it's something I'd like to try and see if it's going to work or not. If not I haven't really lost much of anything further than what's gone already but if it works, that would be great......
Plus I could use a little desoldering/soldering practice to keep my skills sharp.


----------



## Berke53

Now this is a post that is really worth reading through. All my questions on this subjets where answered in this post. I think everybody who think they can build computers should read this as I thought I knew almost all i need to know but now I have this feeling that there are lots of important matters that still are unknown to me.

Thank u very much for your hard work!


----------



## Tronic707x

so is a VRM thingy like a chipset such as 990FX?


----------



## wilykat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tronic707x;15414938*
> so is a VRM thingy like a chipset such as 990FX?


No. VRM regulate voltage and current. Under powered VRM can fry itselves with overpowered CPU or from extreme overclocking.

Chipset is what handle communication between CPU and peripherals like USB and SATA on board.


----------



## Tronic707x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wilykat;15415002*
> No. VRM regulate voltage and current. Under powered VRM can fry itselves with overpowered CPU or from extreme overclocking.
> 
> Chipset is what handle communication between CPU and peripherals like USB and SATA on board.


OH! so you mean like if i set my cpu voltage to 2volts, ok btw is 1.5v bad for an AMD phenom 965 with that i could reach 4Ghz.


----------



## flyin15sec

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wilykat;15415002*
> No. VRM regulate voltage and current. Under powered *VRM can fry itselves with overpowered CPU or from extreme overclocking.*


Just to give this quote an idea of what can happen. This is my MSI K9A2-CFF version 1 motherboard. I blew the mosfets overclocking an older brisbane 5400+.


----------



## xd_1771

^ The K9A2-CF was, unlike the other MSI K9A2 boards (particularly the Platinum), known for failure, probably due to the different brand MOSFETs as observed by another user.


----------



## Thedark1337

Is there a way to fix these VRM failures? Im running stock on an 890FXA-GD70 for the past 11 months but i don't want it to fail on me


----------



## wilykat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thedark1337;15538082*
> Is there a way to fix these VRM failures? Im running stock on an 890FXA-GD70 for the past 11 months but i don't want it to fail on me


If your board hasn't blown up, it may be possible to replace the stock VRM with beefier chips that can handle more current. Also good heat sink and good fan on it if you're going to use water cooling.

If it has already blown, it's hard to fix them as the traces on the PCB could be damaged and mobo often have multi-layered traces. You'd need access to schematic to properly fix it.

A better solution is to be sure you buy quality mobo. And to refrain from overclocking on cheaper mobo and make sure CPU is not too OP. For example, a 95w AMD mobo will blow up if you used 125W CPU.


----------



## Thedark1337

i have no good soldering skills, but i do know that i have a lot of fans. one side fan, 2 exhaust fans, 2 intake fans, psu fan, and 2 heatsink fans. I think thats plenty for the vrms? If it is, would it be possible to OC my CPU without frying it? Or do i have to wait and buy a better board


----------



## xd_1771

Here's another 970A-G45 failure. I'm listing it down.
I think I will form a submission sheet for those who have had their VRMs fail. That way I don't have to pop in so often and can focus on life. I do intend to keep this thread under my control though.


----------



## regiesoriano08

Hi, I'm new here at overclock.net. I'm having a problem with my Asrock 880gm-le mobo with an Athlon II X3 on it. I noticed that the first choke (not the mosfet) is very hot while the rest are on normal temps. This mobo is just a few days old, I recently replaced my J&W RS785-Fusion which I believe, had its VRM blown because when I remove the 4-pin CPU power connector, the system fans spin up. I also noticed that it's first choke is very hot but I thought its normal because the same happens with the Asrock until knowing that my friends have normal temps on all of their chokes. Everything else is new except my CPU so it is my primary suspect. Do you have any idea regarding this?

Athlon II X3 425 @ stock frequency, 1.2V
Asrock 880GM-LE
2*2GB G.Skill RipjawsX @ 1600, 8-9-8-24-34-1T, 1.59V
Geforce 9600GT 512MB DDR3 256-bit
Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB
FSP Hexa 500W

Thank you!


----------



## xd_1771

regiesoriano08, I have responded to your PMs.

Also,

This thread has a new home in OCN's "Articles" Section!!! [CLICK HERE]


----------



## xd_1771

Check THIS out. 3 880GMA-E45s in a row. What a doozy. This is being moved into the high fail rate category.

Check THIS out too. MSI 970A-G45, MOSFETs failed TWO DAYS after review. LOL.

And THIS. Someone undervolted a 1055T, THEN the MOSFETs failed.

What happens when you disable all the power phases except one...


----------



## jphipps69

Very helpful thread!


----------



## Robaire

Hello all. Wish I had seen this earlier before I put together this new system...

Parts include 1055T cpu, hyper 212 + HSF, Antec 900 case, Antec TP650 psu, OCZ solid 3 SSD, hitachi 1TB HDD, Radeon HD5850, 2x4 8GB Patriot Viper Xtreme RAM. First mistake was getting the MSI 970A-G45 board. Installation went fine, then after running Prime95 for a few minutes, board died.

The MSI board has been shipped back for a refund. In the meantime, bought an MSI M5A97 (not the EVO) board from a local place which is working fine with all the above parts. Have the 1055T at 3.7 GHz now. Ran Prime 95 for nearly 40 minutes with no problems at all. Very stable system. However, now I'm a bit nervous. Just looking for more info/reassurance if the 4+2 vrm design on this Asus board is robust enough for some overclock on a 6 core processor? Might consider going to 4 GHz. I'd really rather not return and replace with another board. Also am considering the next, and hopefully better AMD FX chip to put in this Asus board later in 2012. Thoughts/advice much appreciated.


----------



## reflex99

It should be fine\

most asus boards will either shut down or throttle the CPU before anything gets damaged


----------



## Robaire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99*
> 
> It should be fine\
> most asus boards will either shut down or throttle the CPU before anything gets damaged


Thank you. Good to know this. So far, I'm happy with the Asus board. Good to know it should last until the next upgrade.


----------



## xd_1771

The M5A97 is a decent cooled VRM design and of course protected

The 970A-G45 seems to be as failure prone as previous boards, I don't recommend it at all. Is this new 970A-G45 recorded failure not on the "confirmed failures" list yet? Were you sure it was a VRM failure?
By the way, apparently the old 870A-G54 recorded another violent VRM failure today - on a Phenom II x2, with no unlock, and with just a 200Mhz overclock. I'm confirming it with the victim as of now. :/


----------



## Robaire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> The M5A97 is a decent cooled VRM design and of course protected
> 
> The 970A-G45 seems to be as failure prone as previous boards, I don't recommend it at all. Is this new 970A-G45 recorded failure not on the "confirmed failures" list yet? Were you sure it was a VRM failure?
> 
> By the way, apparently the old 870A-G54 recorded another violent VRM failure today - on a Phenom II x2, with no unlock, and with just a 200Mhz overclock. I'm confirming it with the victim as of now. :/


I believe you can now add my experience to the "confirmed failures" list. I can't say for sure this was a VRM failure, but hard for me to believe it was anything else. I started Prime95, and all looked good. I stepped away for at most 10 minutes, and when I got back the system was shut down, and would not restart. I stripped everything down to one memory stick, etc, disconnected power, reset CMOS. If I then tried to turn the system on, the fan lights would light for a fraction of a second only with no fans spinning and no post. I could not see any obvious damage on the board, but I did not remove the heatsinks, or look all that close. I migrated all of the same parts to the Asus board, and all is now well.


----------



## PunkX 1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> The M5A97 is a decent cooled VRM design and of course protected
> 
> The 970A-G45 seems to be as failure prone as previous boards, I don't recommend it at all. Is this new 970A-G45 recorded failure not on the "confirmed failures" list yet? Were you sure it was a VRM failure?
> 
> By the way, apparently the old 870A-G54 recorded another violent VRM failure today - on a Phenom II x2, with no unlock, and with just a 200Mhz overclock. I'm confirming it with the victim as of now. :/


Well the failure is confirmed


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robaire*
> 
> I believe you can now add my experience to the "confirmed failures" list. I can't say for sure this was a VRM failure, but hard for me to believe it was anything else. I started Prime95, and all looked good. I stepped away for at most 10 minutes, and when I got back the system was shut down, and would not restart. I stripped everything down to one memory stick, etc, disconnected power, reset CMOS. If I then tried to turn the system on, the fan lights would light for a fraction of a second only with no fans spinning and no post. I could not see any obvious damage on the board, but I did not remove the heatsinks, or look all that close. I migrated all of the same parts to the Asus board, and all is now well.


I say it's likely. A way to confirm it would have been unplugging the CPU connector and turning the system on.


----------



## PunkX 1

A few days ago, i had bought the 870A-G54 for my kid brother for his birthday. I coupled it with a spare Phenom II X2 555, my old Radeon 4890 and OC'd the processor by about 200 Mhz. I was nowhere even near the TDP limit of the board. After working fine about for half a day, while playing NBA 2K12 with my brother, there was a sudden system shutdown. Something smelt like burnt rubber and after opening up the case i found smoke and the MOSFETs burnt my finger to the touch. So in essence, unless MSI sober up and get the idea that not all their boards feature "Military class components" among other bull****, as consumers and a part of OCN, we need to help members pick the right stuff. As a certain OCN PSU editor had put it, "here at OCN we don't help you save money, we just make you feel better about the hole in your pocket."


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PunkX 1*
> 
> A few days ago, i had bought the 870A-G54 for my kid brother for his birthday. I coupled it with a spare Phenom II X2 555, my old Radeon 4890 and OC'd the processor by about 200 Mhz. I was nowhere even near the TDP limit of the board. After working fine about for half a day, while playing NBA 2K12 with my brother, there was a sudden system shutdown. Something smelt like burnt rubber and after opening up the case i found smoke and the MOSFETs burnt my finger to the touch. So in essence, unless MSI sober up and get the idea that not all their boards feature "Military class components" among other bull****, as consumers and a part of OCN, we need to help members pick the right stuff. As a certain OCN PSU editor had put it, "here at OCN we don't help you save money, we just make you feel better about the hole in your pocket."


I've added it to the confirmed failures list. It's technically the worst failure case ever recorded and not surprisingly, on one of the most failure-prone boards.

I just can't believe you had to experience that, it's a total bummer


----------



## PunkX 1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> I've added it to the confirmed failures list. It's technically the worst failure case ever recorded and not surprisingly, on one of the most failure-prone boards.
> I just can't believe you had to experience that, it's a total bummer


I'm almost apprehensive about accepting the replacement board


----------



## xd_1771

If it were me, the board would already be on its way to Craigslist.


----------



## extra92

Hello another msi 870a-g54, i posted my fail in Punkx1 thread. It seem i reached the highest clock of all 870a motherboard

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *extra92*
> 
> Hello guys my first post on this forum.
> OK guys i had this motherboard for exactly 1 year then it burned up.
> IS Phenom 955 stepping 3
> 
> About this motherboard i had run it 4.0 ghz in 1 year with 1.4 vcore and northbridge 2.4 ghz. Is ok oc.
> And i love MSi make Fake ATX motherboard. On length is ATX on side is MATX rely ***. With my new case the distances didnt even fit!!!!! Only some worked.
> So i started overclock more because new computer case and new cpu cooler H60. I reached 4.3 ghz with 1.5 vcore, booted in windows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Started up Intelburntest on maxium my temp was 57-61°C that was ok . After 15 min it shut down, it smelled like motherboard got burned.
> The thing im mad about it didnt throttle or something. It runned perfect then just BB motherboard. I sended in warranty and hope i get a new motherboard back. Im done with MSI im probably take a ASrock or Gigabyte motherboard for my price range.
> 
> What you think ASrock 970 extreme 4 or Gigabyte Ga-990 XA or 970 A. Those all motherboard cost about same just the Ga-990 XA cost 10 dollar more then the asrock one. Im thinking about the ASrock motherboard because it got more FAn slot on it, the bad one is am going to overclock and it only have 4+1 phase. Help me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for my bad english
> OBS the computer wont start just the diod on motherboard flash 0.5 sec


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *extra92*
> 
> Hello another msi 870a-g54, i posted my fail in Punkx1 thread. It seem i reached the highest clock of all 870a motherboard


Jesus, learn proper English please, this is terribly hard to read.









Edit: nvm, sorry for being an ass.


----------



## PunkX 1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850*
> 
> Jesus, learn proper English please, this is terribly hard to read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: nvm, sorry for being an ass.


Exactly, he's new here at OCN mate, that's not exactly a warm welcome.


----------



## PunkX 1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *extra92*
> 
> Hello another msi 870a-g54, i posted my fail in Punkx1 thread. It seem i reached the highest clock of all 870a motherboard
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *extra92*
> 
> Hello guys my first post on this forum.
> OK guys i had this motherboard for exactly 1 year then it burned up.
> IS Phenom 955 stepping 3
> 
> About this motherboard i had run it 4.0 ghz in 1 year with 1.4 vcore and northbridge 2.4 ghz. Is ok oc.
> And i love MSi make Fake ATX motherboard. On length is ATX on side is MATX rely ***. With my new case the distances didnt even fit!!!!! Only some worked.
> So i started overclock more because new computer case and new cpu cooler H60. I reached 4.3 ghz with 1.5 vcore, booted in windows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Started up Intelburntest on maxium my temp was 57-61°C that was ok . After 15 min it shut down, it smelled like motherboard got burned.
> The thing im mad about it didnt throttle or something. It runned perfect then just BB motherboard. I sended in warranty and hope i get a new motherboard back. Im done with MSI im probably take a ASrock or Gigabyte motherboard for my price range.
> 
> What you think ASrock 970 extreme 4 or Gigabyte Ga-990 XA or 970 A. Those all motherboard cost about same just the Ga-990 XA cost 10 dollar more then the asrock one. Im thinking about the ASrock motherboard because it got more FAn slot on it, the bad one is am going to overclock and it only have 4+1 phase. Help me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for my bad english
> OBS the computer wont start just the diod on motherboard flash 0.5 sec
Click to expand...

I replied to this, check my thread.

Welcome to the community


----------



## jason387

I'm using the msi 760gm p33 with an amd athlon x2 250 overcloked to 3.75ghz with a 1.4vcore so far its been 5 months and all seems to be okay but you never know when something can go wrong. It's extremely sad to see hoe MSI as a brand is going down when mobos are concerned as i have a msi graphics card which is top notch. Anyway apart from all this i see that you have been listing the failures of different msi boards and i would appreciate if you could tell me or provide me with a few links showing the fail rate with this board with no overclock. The reason i am asking is because i was thinking of upgrading to the phenom x4 960t which is 95w and as you know the mobo is also rated at 95tdp,so how much danger will i be in if i use that processor with absolutely no overclocking based on the fail rate of this msi board. Any assistance will be appreciated!


----------



## PunkX 1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jason387*
> 
> I'm using the msi 760gm p33 with an amd athlon x2 250 overcloked to 3.75ghz with a 1.4vcore so far its been 5 months and all seems to be okay but you never know when something can go wrong. It's extremely sad to see hoe MSI as a brand is going down when mobos are concerned as i have a msi graphics card which is top notch. Anyway apart from all this i see that you have been listing the failures of different msi boards and i would appreciate if you could tell me or provide me with a few links showing the fail rate with this board with no overclock. The reason i am asking is because i was thinking of upgrading to the phenom x4 960t which is 95w and as you know the mobo is also rated at 95tdp,so how much danger will i be in if i use that processor with absolutely no overclocking based on the fail rate of this msi board. Any assistance will be appreciated!


It's not so much about the board in particular having a specific failure-rate, it's more about design faults that MSI plagued almost ALL their 7-series and 8-series boards with. You should be good to go with the 960T, as long as you don't unlock and overclock.


----------



## MercurySteam

I have a question for anybody you can help. I removed the heatsinks off the VRMs to the left of the CPU socket so I could fit my Thermalright Silver Arrow on my mobo. I was wondering if it would be safe to get a modest overclock (4.6GHz) without that heatsink on and without the VRMs burning up?. The mobo has 16 power phases for the CPU and my CPU has a max TDP of 95 W.

Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## xd_1771

^ I'm not so sure. With the VRMs being a huge 16 phase and the power going through each phase not being very much, it might not be an issue.... but I would be sure and try to fit the heatsinks back on. Some cooling is better than none.


----------



## MercurySteam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> ^ I'm not so sure. With the VRMs being a huge 16 phase and the power going through each phase not being very much, it might not be an issue.... but I would be sure and try to fit the heatsinks back on. Some cooling is better than none.


I think the VRMs are getting a bit of cooling with the air being pulled over them by one of my massive TY-140 fans. The question is, would it be safe to overclock? If I put the heatsink back on then of of the fans have to come off my CPU cooler.

One of the TY-140s virtually sits on top of the VRMs so I'd like to assume that it is pulling air over them.


----------



## xd_1771

Check this out. Looks like VRM cooling (as in, airflow cooling, not just heatsink!) can be considered a MUST on the power-hungry X79 platform:
GIGABYTE X79-UD3 VRM fire!

This is quite unusual really since GIGABYTE normally uses quality FETs.


----------



## reflex99

1 failure != trend......

idk how many times i have said this


----------



## xd_1771

When did I say anything about this possibly becoming a trend and that everyone should be worried about it to the max extet already?









It does help to note that the lack of airflow to the VRM area as well as the power hungry nature of the LGA2011 platform may have contributed to this. It's a single failure, sure, but it's definitely a sign that precautions may need to be taken on this platform, i.e. a fan over the VRMs. Considering these are quality FETs this is very, very unusual.


----------



## reflex99

you are trying to say that he could repeat this all day.

No, we don't know that. It is equally likely that it is/was a manufacturing defect.

Recommending fans and stuff indicates that you believe it is a widespread issue (trend).


----------



## PunkX 1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> When did I say anything about this possibly becoming a trend and that everyone should be worried about it to the max extet already?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does help to note that the lack of airflow to the VRM area as well as the power hungry nature of the LGA2011 platform may have contributed to this. It's a single failure, sure, but it's definitely a sign that precautions may need to be taken on this platform, i.e. a fan over the VRMs. Considering these are quality FETs this is very, very unusual.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99*
> 
> you are trying to say that he could repeat this all day.
> No, we don't know that. It is equally likely that it is/was a manufacturing defect.
> Recommending fans and stuff indicates that you believe it is a widespread issue (trend).


Relax guys









xd meant well. Reflex may be right in the issue being a manufacturing defect. No harm done


----------



## reflex99

XD does this allllllllll the time....

and we fight about it ALLLLLLLLLLL the time.

"one board died"....."ALLL OF THEM MUST HAVE THIS PROBLEM!"

it doesn't work like that lol.


----------



## wilykat

True using some alternate cooler such as water cooling can increase the chance of MOSFET overheating and failing, some mobo have been reported to fail with either stock CPU cooler or decent aftermarket air cooler as well. Also extreme CPU voltage or using over-rated CPU can overload the MOSFET ie a 140w AMD CPU on a 125w mobo.

A combination of faulty chips, higher than standard voltage, and/or poor cooling can accelerate the failures.


----------



## Zethlis

I need help. I ordered an Phenom X4 9950 Agena, the one with a 140 watt TDP. And I also got this motherboard that has superior functionality for OCing, http://asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=N68C-S%20UCC&cat=Specifications.

My question is, the MOBO is rated 95 watt max and my 9950 is the only X4 processor not listed on the supported CPUs list (how ****ty...) but is there a way I could set a cap on how much wattage the CPU can draw? I have a 750 watt PSU on the way so power isn't the problem, the motherboard is.

I've got a http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4143848&SRCCODE=WEBLET03ORDER&cm_mmc=Email-_-WebletMain-_-WEBLET03ORDER-_-Deals CPU heatsink

and I have a box fan blowing on my tower in case there's not enough airflow.

What do you think?


----------



## reflex99

140w processor is really pushing it


----------



## Zethlis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99*
> 
> 140w processor is really pushing it


I thought I was tech savvy but this is the first time I've worked on upgrading my processor. What exactly will happen if I use a 140w proc on a 95w mobo?


----------



## trumpet-205

Here is Intel stance over VRM.


----------



## Zethlis

That doesn't tell me much. So it will work fine?


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Zethlis*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *reflex99*
> 
> 140w processor is really pushing it
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I was tech savvy but this is the first time I've worked on upgrading my processor. What exactly will happen if I use a 140w proc on a 95w mobo?
Click to expand...

The board will probably not be coded to run that specific CPU and refuse to POST. Or blow up soon after putting a very heavy (i.e. P95) load on it, either way works.

That video above doesn't make sense. How is a 16 phase VRM any less balanced than an 8 phase VRM? Power is split between the phases evenly regardless of amount of phases (unless of course, something like MSI's APS is used and phases are turned off when not in use). A 16 phase VRM allows the power load to be split between more phases and thus each phase has cooler running components. If anything the heat differences he describes (of which are probably nowhere near 60C) are probably attenuated by mounting pressure differences in the larger heatsinks over VRM chips.

What lower phase count can do is reduce manufacturing costs, that I guess is true.


----------



## Zethlis

So it won't work? I'm sorry but all the abbreviations you're using makes me feel like I'm being taught algebra again...


----------



## wilykat

translation: using high rated CPU on a 95w motherboard = no power on or big fire and smoke.


----------



## Zethlis

Thanks for the translation.

Is there no way I can use them together? I don't want to wait another half a month to get a quad core :[


----------



## xd_1771

^ Likely, no.

Although if the board does in fact boot up with your processor, you will want to lock cores and/or undervolt to ensure that the board components operate within thermal and rated specs.


----------



## Zethlis

Is that adjusted in the BIOS? Never configured my BIOS before.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> The board will probably not be coded to run that specific CPU and refuse to POST. Or blow up soon after putting a very heavy (i.e. P95) load on it, either way works.
> 
> That video above doesn't make sense. How is a 16 phase VRM any less balanced than an 8 phase VRM? Power is split between the phases evenly regardless of amount of phases (unless of course, something like MSI's APS is used and phases are turned off when not in use). A 16 phase VRM allows the power load to be split between more phases and thus each phase has cooler running components. If anything the heat differences he describes (of which are probably nowhere near 60C) are probably attenuated by mounting pressure differences in the larger heatsinks over VRM chips.
> 
> What lower phase count can do is reduce manufacturing costs, that I guess is true.


He was talking about heat mostly i think.

And it kinda makes sense. Most companies use higher numbers of phases to compensate, so they don't have to use more expensive higher rated transistors.

The Classic TA890FXE case, vs the 24phase gigabutt.

More != always better


----------



## Zethlis

What I'm confused about is the motherboard is supposedly made for unlocking CPUs and overclocking, but it wouldn't be able to handle that quad? That's 4 years old almost?


----------



## xd_1771

^ Not high end processors. Maybe a single core to a dual or dual to a triple and I guess that is it.

If it were really meant to run high end processors than ASRock would rate it at 125W.


----------



## Zethlis

well there's a lot of 65w and 95w quad cores out now. I have two options, underclock the 140w TDP quad core and hope it works, or overclock my ****ty AMD Athlon x5000 2.6ghz dual core... What do you suggest?


----------



## stryk3r1215

Since an FX 4100 sucks up 95W on stock, would pairing it up with an MSI 970A-G45 with some mild overclocking be OK? I've got a nice $15 case fan as well as a hyper212+ cooler, and a grfx card cooler as well. Suggestions?


----------



## xd_1771

I wouldn't usually recommend it as the 970A-G45 has been reported to be failure prone, although mild overclocking might be fine should you keep the VRM temperatures in check and ensure the voltage isn't reaching too high. There haven't been any incidents in the extremities (i.e. failing with CPUs at stock) reported on this board yet. If you proceed, do so with extreme caution.


----------



## stryk3r1215

Thanks. How can I check the VRM temperatures? Does HWMonitor monitor it?

Anyway, I'm thinking of getting an ASUS M5A99X EVO as soon as I turn in my deffective ASUS M5A97 EVO!


----------



## stryk3r1215

Well, to update, I got a new cpu cooler, a corsair H50, and from reading your article...that's a bad thing for VRM if I'm gonna use the MSI 970A-G45. However, I did buy a new PC case, a bigger one, that included two fans, one in the back (which is where the radiator is now with a fan behind it) and one in the front where the hard drives go. This provides a lot better ventilation than the previous case I had. the G45 has heatsinks on the VRM, though there have still been some failures. Would it be a good idea to put a fan that pushes air onto the VRM heatsinks? I've got an FX 4100 that's rated to Max TDP 95W. If I overclock it a bit, how high can I expect that to go?


----------



## guitar_man_94

Hi rather than make a new thread I thought I would ask this here. I have an ASUS P6T SE that runs pretty warm. Even with 4 2000RPM fans on the side of my case the Northbridge gets too hot to touch even at stock and mosfets get reasonably hot with the cpu overclocked. So I was thinking of adding a 60mm fan to the Northbridge heatsink and some 40mm fans to the mosfets heatsinks. My question is are the these the best sized fans to be using and what is the best way of mounting these fans to the stock heatsinks?

Cheers


----------



## musty989

In general, what's a good temperature for MOSFET's while you're stressing your system? Mine run from 50C-58C depending on the ambient temperature so far, and that's unfortunately an increase of 3-5C because I replaced the thermal pad between my mosfet's and heatsink with some MX-4, I guess I put too much or left a small gap due to the thickness of the thermal pad =/.


----------



## levissimo

i have asus m4a785d-m pro and 960t,vcore default is 1.3 is stable with 1.15 vcore
unlock @X6 and is stable with vcore 1.225
not overclock only un lock,used HYPER 212 plus
I have problems?

sorry for my english i speak only italian


----------



## xd_1771

^ You may wish to ensure VRM cooling by switching to stock cooling or the board's VRMs may have problem supplying the needed power while keeping within safe thermal and supply levels, which may cause over-current protection to hit and impact performance during intense CPU loads. With your Hyper 212+ there is no cooling to the VRMs whatsoever with all air skipping that area of the motherboard and heat unable to radiate. Considering that you have not overclocked and if you don't intend to, the 212+ is redundant and the AMD stock cooler will be able to supply the cooling you need while providing airflow to motherboard components including the VRMs ensuring optimal operation and efficiency.

The alternative, would, of course, be to add VRM cooling. Add heatsinks (buy some?) or mount a small fan that blows to that area. Anything is better than nothing.


----------



## levissimo

thanks.
in shop near my house for change MB I spend ~50$(usd) for dissi cmos enzotec c1 44$(usd)


----------



## Gabriel4OCNET

Thanks for reading.

Sorry if it`s not the right place to ask it, I`m not experienced in forums.

I have a Gigabyte mobo GA-880GMA-USB3 and a Phenom II X4 965 C3 125W.

I installed zalman mosfet heatsink with sekisui tape.

Finger test in the heatsink, it`s not hot so far and I think heatsink is properly seated. I tried to put my finger above the heatsink, it`s not hot too.
Core temp is very good, CPU temp is high, but many people say it doesn`t matter so much.
Case is very good, Akasa Raptor with 3 Akasa Viper controled by a fan controller. 1 intake, 2 Out.

Chipset is hot, undervolted but heatsink is very hot. About 60ºC on load.

3400MHZ - 1.35V - 125W(Default)

Is this OC dangerous?
3800MHZ - 1.30V - 130W (OC) (Testing Stability)
3800MHZ - 1.325 - 135W (OC) (Testing Stability)


----------



## xd_1771

^ Above looks good to me! 60C on the chipset should be within the thermal limits. It's probably running hotter as it must be really cooled passively (not enough case airflow for active cooling, thus passive cooling).


----------



## Gabriel4OCNET

Oh, thank you for the quick answer, and for being so good for everyone who is asking some doubt in this thread.

I really don`t wanna talk mainly about overclock stability or performance in this thread, I wanna talk about Motherboard health.

I have a personal limit with voltages, If I have to raise so much, I prefer to stay stock.

1.35V or 1.375V is a safe limit for voltage at 3800mhz considering i have a heatsink in the *mosfets*?
mosfet looks cool, chokes are hot, about 50º-60ºC I think.
Take a look on the area:

http://www.promax.co.nz/store/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/g/i/gigabyte_ga-880gma-usb3_amd_880g_sb850_am3_matx.jpg

http://ic.tweakimg.net/ext/i/imagelarge/1288870062.jpeg

The heatsink is above the 8 mosfets, on the side of chokes.

I read this, I`ve searched:

http://www.overclock.net/t/946407/amd-motherboard-vrm-information-list

My mobo is TDP 140W, but I think it`s better to listen a solid opnion.

reaching 135W to 140W is safe for this mobo / mosfet?

What you can say about this voltages?

NB Voltage: 1.020V - 1.100V

NB/PCIE/PLL: 1.560V - 1.640V

CPU NB VID : 1.050V - 1.125V


----------



## xd_1771

Your VRM system uses quality transistors with great supply quality AND are well cooled; I see nothing to possibly hold you back. The chokes are not fragile, they are not active transistors; they can take those heat levels.


----------



## pwnzilla61

Very nice read through of this, and this proves why i tell i'll my friends i always stand by asus motherboards.


----------



## Xylene

My VRMs and Mosfets went from roasting hot to barely warm by ziptieing a fan to one of the hoses on my H100 so it points at them.


----------



## Disturbed117

VRM's just popped on my MSI 890FXA-GD70.


----------



## theamdman

I probably should put the stock cooler back on my a880g+ board considering, i am running a unlocked x4 on it.


----------



## therfman

Just out of curiosity... how hot are VRM chokes capable of tolerating. I'm playing around with overclocking a FX-8150 on a Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3. The motherboard list has it as recommended, but the heatsink is somewhat small, and it does not cover the chokes. I have added fans on the VRM and northbridge heatsinks because there is little air movement in the case with the liquid cooling I use for the CPU.

The FX-8150 is a real current hog, and things really heat up in there at 4.4 GHz and 1.37V. (The CPU is perfectly fine and stable there, with a max temp of 49C). But if I run a high computational load,a few of the chokes can reach over 100C, which seems excessive. The hottest one was being measured in the following picture



I know some of these devices can handle really high temps, but I have no idea on the specs for this particular model. Inductors aren't active so they're not going to fail suddenly because of heat, but I'm sure there's a maximum there before the fail and go open circuit.

If I can find a small enough heatsink to put on them, I may do so, but otherwise, I may end up having to change the motherboard for something with a more robust VRM/choke cooling solution....


----------



## almstsobur

I'm in the same boat. at 5.0Ghz OC on my 8150, my VRM's exceed 90c, when they do it will throttle. I just ordered a waterblock for my VRM's to put in the loop, the temps have me worried. VRM block should be here Monday, I will post results.


----------



## xd_1771

Chokes are pretty tolerable in that they're not active transistors but that kind of heat could be considered worrysome, esp. considering what looks like the presence of nearby airflow. The 8150 is, however, a very power-intensive chip.


----------



## Tonez

Do they make aftermarket VRM air cooler's and where might I find one? My mobo is the GA-970A-UD3 with fx 8120. Anything I can do to help it would be great.


----------



## xd_1771

The GA-970A-UD3 is retrofitted with a high end 8+2 phase quality VRM system that is cooled by a heatsink already.


----------



## sumitlian

I live in India where 41c - 47c is normal ambient temp in summer time, now is the first month of summer and current ambient is 36c. When I tortured my UD5 in winter with 1055T, it was 100% stable at 4.0ghz and all temp were under the max value. Unfortunately my h70 radiator is blocking enough free space over vrm heatsink. This is causing vrms to become more hot in summer because of lacking normal air flow....will running at 4.0ghz at this ambient temp blow up the vrms of my UD5 ?? Or either they have been built to resist more heat than I think ?? Please help







before I bought UD5 I had been in a nightmare with three msi board for 1year, they all died. now I dont wanna lose UD5.


----------



## axipher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tonez*
> 
> Do they make aftermarket VRM air cooler's and where might I find one? My mobo is the GA-970A-UD3 with fx 8120. Anything I can do to help it would be great.


Check my Canary Red Build log, I used some RAM coolers to keep my VRM's cool.

My stance on heat sinks is that if I can't keep my finger on them without losing some skin, it's too hot and can be cooled some more


----------



## Tonez

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> The GA-970A-UD3 is retrofitted with a high end 8+2 phase quality VRM system that is cooled by a heatsink already.


Thanks for your knowledge.


----------



## zantuz

My VRM temps is around 42ºC - 44ºC (idle), CPU not overclocked, are those temps ok?
My question is, i´m thinking to OC the CPU, will VRM temps increase? What is the safety VRM temp by overclocking?
Thanks


----------



## nvidiaftw12

I once ran a 2+1 phase msi board with sig proc at 1.45 volts, and it ran ok for a bit. then I accidentally gave it 2.1 (supposedly, doubt it went that high) and it didn't last long after that.


----------



## Krusher33

I wish I didn't have to worry about this. If I put a shroud on my H60, it'll end up hovering over the VRM's and therefore blocking airflow.







And before someone says just add a 92mm fan or something... I'm trying to keep it quiet to keep my wife happy.


----------



## axipher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krusher33*
> 
> I wish I didn't have to worry about this. If I put a shroud on my H60, it'll end up hovering over the VRM's and therefore blocking airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And before someone says just add a 92mm fan or something... *I'm trying to keep it quiet* to keep my wife happy.


There are plenty of quiet 92 mm fans out there, like the Scythe PWM one.

Another alternative is using a RAM cooler like I did in my Canary Red build to cool the VRM area.


----------



## Krusher33

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *axipher*
> 
> There are plenty of quiet 92 mm fans out there, like the Scythe PWM one.
> 
> Another alternative is using a RAM cooler like I did in my Canary Red build to cool the VRM area.


RAM cooler won't fit so that option won't work.

I'm under the impressing that 92's are noisier than 120's?


----------



## axipher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Krusher33*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *axipher*
> 
> There are plenty of quiet 92 mm fans out there, like the Scythe PWM one.
> 
> Another alternative is using a RAM cooler like I did in my Canary Red build to cool the VRM area.
> 
> 
> 
> RAM cooler won't fit so that option won't work.
> 
> I'm under the impressing that 92's are noisier than 120's?
Click to expand...

So many things to take in to consideration when looking at fans.

In an ideal world where both a 120 mm and 92 mm fan are of the exact same design, the 92 mm man will need to spin faster to move the same amount of air and will therefore be louder.

But for cooling a VRM, you don't need massive airflow over them since the fins are so widely spaced and thick, you're looking more for just some general directional airflow to remove the heat that is coming off of the heat sink.


----------



## hobovision

Allow me to add another horror story, and this one is really ridiculous (on my part and the boards). I use an MSI 760GM-P35, because I couldn't afford better. I was doing a stability test for a modest 3.8Ghz OC on my Phenom II 965. I had the voltage set to auto, because that made the most sense at the time. The range of possible values was something like 1.3-1.55, but I didn't think that the board would apply more voltage than it could handle. I was wrong. A couple minutes into the test, I get a critical failure and a restart. It POSTs and boots up fine. So I'm thinking that was weird but that it shut down to prevent any damage. Again, after a few minutes the same thing happens, but I notice a smell this time. Something definitely fried. I go to check and I see two chips burnt and smoking. I didn't know what they did at the time, until I did a bit of research. Makes perfect sense now. Could've been worse; RMA took about 3 weeks, though. Here's a picture I took.



DATA:

Feb 1, 2012
MSI 760GM-P35
Phenom II x4 965BE, 3.4GHz (125W)
Running at 3.8GHz @ ~1.4-1.5V
Xigmatek Gaia Cooler


----------



## xd_1771

^ Will add the above :/ soz, but you do realize that MSI did not rate that board for 125W TDP processors. Having the GAIA and no VRM cooling did no help either. You basically set yourself up for a VRM failure.

As for today, *New failure*: Stock speed, stock cooler on the board with the toughest failure record


----------



## OCScrub

Very nice article, learned a ton from reading it.

I have a question about my X58 Sabertooth. ASUS list it as having:

-8 -Phase CPU Power
- 2 -Phase Memory Power
- 2 -Phase VTT_CPU Power

It follows that 8+2 that you said for 1366, but with the exception of the 2-phase VTT_CPU. What is the VTT_CPU?


----------



## ionstorm66

My third MSI 890FXA-GD70 is failing. Randomly crashes after putting stress on the system. Back the clocks back and volts for now. Doing the same thing as my second board, system cuts of and it boot cycles with a FF code. Pulling the power cord and holding the power button seams to reset it. After booting and checking the DrMOS temps in the bios, they are all 70C+, but the heat sink is barely warm to the touch. Definitely something up with the heat not getting to the heat sink.


----------



## xd_1771

OCScrub: CPU power is arranged as 8+2 phase - 8 to the CPU and 2 to the CPU-VTT which is basically like the CPU-NB on AM3 platform. The 2 memory phases that are listed are not part of this same VRM system and run off the 24-pin motherboard connector, powering the DDR3 memory.


----------



## xd_1771

Hey guys, check this out

Guys on MSI forums telling people that VRM heatsinks are useless

I really like where MSI themselves have been going by not ignoring that they have quality control issues, placing warnings on the appropriate board pages and acknowledging that their VRM designs have gone awry and attempting to improve those designs - and they have in the past few. MSI finally introduced some boards with higher phase count and quality control while awry at times (I just recorded a 990FXA-GD65 failure) is really getting up there. It's raising my confidence in their abilities in design.

But this... this just has me really disappointed. I'm not entirely sure if bas actually works for MSI but I'm just disappointed. We have documented cases of the addition of VRM cooling having stopped CPU protective throttling issues on ASUS boards because the VRMs become much cooler and thus able to handle the load.


----------



## boot318

Why MSI don't like overclock.net? lol


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> Hey guys, check this out
> 
> Guys on MSI forums telling people that VRM heatsinks are useless
> 
> I really like where MSI themselves have been going by not ignoring that they have quality control issues, placing warnings on the appropriate board pages and acknowledging that their VRM designs have gone awry and attempting to improve those designs - and they have in the past few. MSI finally introduced some boards with higher phase count and quality control while awry at times (I just recorded a 990FXA-GD65 failure) is really getting up there. It's raising my confidence in their abilities in design.
> 
> But this... this just has me really disappointed. I'm not entirely sure if bas actually works for MSI but I'm just disappointed. We have documented cases of the addition of VRM cooling having stopped CPU protective throttling issues on ASUS boards because the VRMs become much cooler and thus able to handle the load.


Outrageous. Those people are dumb.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> Hey guys, check this out
> 
> Guys on MSI forums telling people that VRM heatsinks are useless
> 
> I really like where MSI themselves have been going by not ignoring that they have quality control issues, placing warnings on the appropriate board pages and acknowledging that their VRM designs have gone awry and attempting to improve those designs - and they have in the past few. MSI finally introduced some boards with higher phase count and quality control while awry at times (I just recorded a 990FXA-GD65 failure) is really getting up there. It's raising my confidence in their abilities in design.
> 
> But this... this just has me really disappointed. I'm not entirely sure if bas actually works for MSI but I'm just disappointed. We have documented cases of the addition of VRM cooling having stopped CPU protective throttling issues on ASUS boards because the VRMs become much cooler and thus able to handle the load.


Could you please quote me where an MSI employee (or MSI representative) has actually claimed what you are saying?

I fail to see it.

I see a forum mod, but by that logic, OCN is a terrible place too, since our mods are full of it 70% of the time too.


----------



## xd_1771

Given the great standards MSI was setting for themselves as a company and the great progress they were making with their designs and quality control, I also came to expect more from the MSI community.

Look at this claim: "VRM themselves only 'fry' when you use an unsuitable CPU, or in extreme overclocking where they simply get overloaded." The claim was allowed to stand and not even one look was taken at this thread (linked by the OP) which has a documented list that reveals several MSI board failures that occurred without overclocking.

As for bas... as I had said, I'm not sure whether he actually works for MSI or not but he really mishandled it as the one who could've helped/took action. He closed the thread and didn't allow a word from anyone else, making a very bad assumption that the OP was there to damage MSI when all he was trying to do is get some security out of an issue of his own. There shouldn't have been anything wrong with turning to MSI about this problem because even MSI should be well aware that it exists. It's no secret. The failures that are documented on this thread are merely a collection of instances that have been already posted in several areas around the web.

Given that OP had already known about this thread I'm sure he was able to find his way so I'm not worried about it so much.


----------



## jsc1973

Reminds me a very good line I read in a book a long time ago: If someone is going to play Galileo, someone has to play the Pope.

If MSI wants to stick their heads up their rectums while the VRMs on their motherboards catch fire, they'll eventually make enough paying customers mad enough that their lack of sales will get their attention.


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> Given the great standards MSI was setting for themselves as a company and the great progress they were making with their designs and quality control, I also came to expect more from the MSI community.
> 
> Look at this claim: "VRM themselves only 'fry' when you use an unsuitable CPU, or in extreme overclocking where they simply get overloaded." The claim was allowed to stand and not even one look was taken at this thread (linked by the OP) which has a documented list that reveals several MSI board failures that occurred without overclocking.
> 
> As for bas... as I had said, I'm not sure whether he actually works for MSI or not but he really mishandled it as the one who could've helped/took action. He closed the thread and didn't allow a word from anyone else, making a very bad assumption that the OP was there to damage MSI when all he was trying to do is get some security out of an issue of his own. There shouldn't have been anything wrong with turning to MSI about this problem because even MSI should be well aware that it exists. It's no secret. The failures that are documented on this thread are merely a collection of instances that have been already posted in several areas around the web.
> 
> Given that OP had already known about this thread I'm sure he was able to find his way so I'm not worried about it so much.


You are making quite a few of your own conclusions there.

Our mods say bull-crap stuff all the time, should we start complaining about that too?


----------



## ronnin426850

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reflex99*
> 
> You are making quite a few of your own conclusions there.
> Our mods say bull-crap stuff all the time, should we start complaining about that too?


Should we not? IDK, I personally complain whenever anyone says bull-crap. Don't you?


----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ronnin426850*
> 
> Should we not? IDK, I personally complain whenever anyone says bull-crap. Don't you?


attempting to discredit an entire company based off the words of one moderator (who likely isn't affiliated with MSI in any other way), is silly.


----------



## xd_1771

Well, let's see. It was a post on MSI's very own forums... MSI denied to give the user asking for help a hand themselves.... and MSI merely allowed the whole thing to come to this conclusion.

I'm not trying to bring forward a permanent/generalized discredit out of this (for the most part, MSI seems to have acknowledged the quality control situation and are dealing with it fairly well with design improvements and whatnot) and I've been trying to keep my mouth shut about them but it gets on my nerves when I see situations like this. This kind of dismissal might be met with consequences - and I'm not just speaking about the ones that might be inflicted onto MSI if they stand still about this. What about the OP with the x6 and the 870A? I wonder what happened to him.

As a concerned community... what do you think we should do about this? (I'm asking everyone)


----------



## PunkX 1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> Well, let's see. It was a post on MSI's very own forums... MSI denied to give the user asking for help a hand themselves.... and MSI merely allowed the whole thing to come to this conclusion.
> 
> I'm not trying to bring forward a permanent/generalized discredit out of this (for the most part, MSI seems to have acknowledged the quality control situation and are dealing with it fairly well with design improvements and whatnot) and I've been trying to keep my mouth shut about them but it gets on my nerves when I see situations like this. This kind of dismissal might be met with consequences - and I'm not just speaking about the ones that might be inflicted onto MSI if they stand still about this. What about the OP with the x6 and the 870A? I wonder what happened to him.
> 
> As a concerned community... what do you think we should do about this? (I'm asking everyone)


Spread awareness and educate people to help them avoid frying their hardware. The article did hint at the folly of ignorance. Whether the mod was affiliated to the company or not, closing the thread prematurely was..well..odd.

As good ol' shmuck once put it...mess with the goat, get the horns


----------



## mezmenir

Well since this is a thread dedicated to VRMs, I just have to ask. Is it possible for a VRM to go bad, and cause the ATX12/EPS12 connector to burn up, without the VRM actually looking damaged?

The EPS connector on my now-dead 990XA-UD3 got so hot that it fused itself to my PSU cable, my first thought was oh great, VRM failure. But in honesty, the entire board still looks like brand new, other than the really badly burned EPS socket with attached PSU bits.

Still have no idea where it failed, very silent VRM failure? Because it DEFINITELY failed.


----------



## PunkX 1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mezmenir*
> 
> Well since this is a thread dedicated to VRMs, I just have to ask. Is it possible for a VRM to go bad, and cause the ATX12/EPS12 connector to burn up, without the VRM actually looking damaged?
> The EPS connector on my now-dead 990XA-UD3 got so hot that it fused itself to my PSU cable, my first thought was oh great, VRM failure. But in honesty, the entire board still looks like brand new, other than the really badly burned EPS socket with attached PSU bits.
> Still have no idea where it failed, very silent VRM failure? Because it DEFINITELY failed.


The same thing to me on an old G54. So yeah it was a silent VRM failure.


----------



## mezmenir

I posted a picture of it in the Gigabyte 990XA club, that connector was destroyed. At least now I have a little confirmation, odd that it died at 1.408v though







Would be one thing if it were the board, but it took my PSU with it (well, at least its warranty, and EPS connector). PSU still sort of works, heh.


----------



## reflex99

also can be a faulty PSU (possibly the connector), faulty board (the traces could be shorting), or a number of other things.

but that can happen due to vrm issues.


----------



## xd_1771

*Breaking news*

First VRM failure on MSI 970A-G46 (970A-G45 rev with larger VRM heatsink) recorded on Newegg with FX-8150 - CLICK HERE - failure took out the CPU

Hm, so things aren't changing


----------



## PunkX 1

^ An MSI board failing?! NO!!


----------



## pioneerisloud

And we expected any better from an MSI 4 phase?


----------



## mezmenir

ASUS. Is this (by the way, 130C is the -minimum-, how is this even safe?)


----------



## Atomfix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mezmenir*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ASUS. Is this (by the way, 130C is the -minimum-, how is this even safe?)


How is your AI Suite different to mine?


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pioneerisloud*
> And we expected any better from an MSI 4 phase?


Well, MSI did not place any "do not burn" warnings on their 970A-G46 phase and while the larger VRM heatsink gave us a hint of a better design we really didn't know anything about what was under there, so I will admit to having had a bit of confidence in this board. This incident cancels it for me.


----------



## mezmenir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atomfix*
> 
> How is your AI Suite different to mine?


I have the Crosshair V R2 with Digi + II, that may be the difference. Is your AiSuite up to date?


----------



## Atomfix

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mezmenir*
> 
> I have the Crosshair V R2 with Digi + II, that may be the difference. Is your AiSuite up to date?


Oh, I didn't realize you had the Z Version XD, It seems like a down version compared to mine, it has more features to control than yours?


----------



## mezmenir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Atomfix*
> 
> Oh, I didn't realize you had the Z Version XD, It seems like a down version compared to mine, it has more features to control than yours?


Mine split up into different pieces, not sure if they differ that much







On a side note, this chip seems to really love this board. Lol



Still need to re-lower my memory timings and tweak the phase control a little, but so far, it's been stupidly easy to OC and, at 1.40v no less. 1.25 CPUNB. VRM isn't even warm, lol


----------



## nvidiaftw12

Now now, remember msi has had some good boards. I have overclocked at 955 be to 3.7 @ 1.45 volts on a 2+1 phase msi board.


----------



## xd_1771

^ Which one was it and for how long? (I don't think they actually offer any 2+1 phase setups... 3+1?)


----------



## nvidiaftw12

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> ^ Which one was it and for how long? (I don't think they actually offer any 2+1 phase setups... 3+1?)


Old board. I'd have to look up my old posts to find the name. I'll edit this post when I do. It didn't last very long because I kinda accidentally gave it 2.1 volts (supposedly) and it only lived for like an hour after that.

Edit: You're right, 3+1 phase, but still pretty good for a $30 board. http://www.msi.com/product/mb/GF615M-P33.html


----------



## mezmenir

2.1v







!?!?!?


----------



## xd_1771

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PunkX 1*
> 
> ^ An MSI board failing?! NO!!


By the way, doesn't even look like that 8150 was overclocked :/


----------



## noobhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nvidiaftw12*
> 
> Old board. I'd have to look up my old posts to find the name. I'll edit this post when I do. *It didn't last very long because I kinda accidentally gave it 2.1 volts (supposedly) and it only lived for like an hour after that.*
> 
> Edit: You're right, 3+1 phase, but still pretty good for a $30 board. http://www.msi.com/product/mb/GF615M-P33.html


----------



## Belial

Hi. I've searched the internet for DEATH on this, but can't find an answer...

What is the max temperature for nikos, no rds on, 3 legged, 3+1 mosfets?

I have 2 temperature diodes next to the 2 hottest phases, the hottest of which gets to 60-90*C depending on what I set vcore (1.502 to 1.568). I backed off vcore 1.568 because I dont really know what the limit is (these are prime95 after an hour temps btw).

Anyone have an idea?

I have a biostar a770e3. It has no heatsink, but i sawed off an old am2 heatsink and stuck it on the 3 phases. The reason I ask is because I am overclocking a phenom x4 955 now, and I'm okay with 1.55+volts on this phenom.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1324029/fixing-broken-pins-phenom-955/0_100#post_18553953

http://www.overclock.net/t/959145/jerryrigging-mofset-heatsinks/0_100#post_12741129


----------



## Belial

Quote:


> Technically the phase designs can handle 100C, but definitely not recommend for long periods of time. At 90C there will be PCB discoloration. But at those high temps, pretty good odds will shorten the lifespan of the components.


This is what Biostar messaged me when I asked about the VRMs.

I'll check to see if there's any discolouration on my pcb. I asked a follow-up email for clarification for exactly what would be a good 24/7 prime95 temp, but I'm guessing 85*C is the max that's probably safe for a 24/7 prime95 temp.


----------



## xd_1771

Very high temperatures also reduce real-time output capacity..


----------



## Belial

I don't know what you are trying to tell me.... high mosfet temps mean more fluctuating, less reliable, possibly lower vcore....

am i risking that with 70-90*C mosfet temps?

I think with 80s i will be okay, right?

i wish i could get a fan onto my vrms but there simply isnt a fan that would fit. A 25mm fan would be too big ;/

I dont see any discoloration on the back of my motherboard by the power phase though.


----------



## Belial

I told the biostar tech rep that my board did not appear discolored.
Quote:


> The discoloration does not start right away, after a period of time will start to turn brownish


i mean i dont really care if the board turns brown, as long as it works reliably. im just going to take it as low 80s as the highest temp you'll want to reach with a 24/7 set-up after hours of prime95. because it'll probably be much lower under just general gaming or streaming/encoding work.


----------



## xd_1771

Output capacity also decreases.

For example: a transistor at 25C might have ample capacity at 15A safely. However, at 80C, this drops - it could be as low as say, 5A (I wouldn't know what the curve is). The cooler the VRMs, the higher the maintenance of capacity. The more transistors (and the more phases), the higher safe capacity. The lower, the sooner you'll reach that curve and begin to go beyond what is safely doable.

VRMs are like other power components like in a PSU and/or a CPU: they degrade over time, especially with load. In 5 years, that 15A at 25C could be just 10A by then. What might not be too dangerous now might be deadly by then. If you're going to be running frequent 100% loads for extended periods of time in things like video editing tasks, I always recommend pursuing an 8+2 phase. The less load your VRMs experience in their lifetime, the more efficient they are and the longer they last.

It's up to your standards. Personally, I wouldn't risk that. For anything to experience 70-90C loads today is just ludicrous. This isn't the 8800GTX or Pentium D era.


----------



## Belial

Right. I'll just try to stay under 90*C. I get a curve exists somewhere, but I don't really quite see how to test it. Vcore seems to be stable under p95.

Even though I stream quite a bit (twitch.tv/belial88 or check out twitch.tv/belialtester88, those are most recent), i dont think streaming for hours on end would put the same load like p95. So as long as i only reach ~85*C when doing hours and hours of p95, i think that will be okay.

i mean this is all arbitrary, but going by 100*C limit, 90*C discoloration, ill try to stay under 90*C, maybe lower than 85*C.

I think im going to be dropping vcore to less anyways, i think temps on the cpu are causing instability, so with 1.504vcore, im at 75*C max on vrms.

i wish i could get some active cooling on my vrm but there doesnt appear to be a fan small enough to fit.


----------



## Belial

Okay well all this talk about being the limit of my board, even with the heatsink...

Now I noticed my VRM was warm to the touch upon shutting down after a prime95 test, of course (meant that they were working!), so i figured to add a small fan to the set-up. Here's the story in pictures:


40 MM fan (when hooked up, to my surprise, lights up blue/green/red like a christmas tree).


Ripped from this old, 2003 computer found in my dead uncle's garage.


Heatsink, fan on top, this on top of fan, screwed in.

This is how I got the idea to use the fan - there are no special brackets that held this 40mm fan onto the motherboard northbridge (***, why didnt my 2010 biostar a770e3 didnt have a fan on the mobo-northibrdge? I had to jerry rig one on...), it was straight screwed into the heatsink. I, too, would screw my fan directly into the heatsink then, having the heatsink fins hold it in place.


Theres the heatsink, but the rear 120mm hyper 212+ fan would be issues. If I put the fan on top of the mosfeat heatsink, i would have to move up the pull fan a cm or so. Maybe that'd raise cpu temps. maybe that'd lower it, who knows. And, maybe it would stick out too far that I woudnt be able to put my panel back on?

And then there were questions, shoudl I put this fan in a way where it's 'pulling' air through the heatsink, as in, instead of blowing down on it radially like a stock CPU heatsink, maybe I should set it up like a tower heatsink, and have the fan 'pull' air through the mosfet heatsink. Or, maybe with pull? Maybe I could sort of put the fan at an angle, on top of the heatsink, but not quite on top, sort of at an angle, to allow my pull fan to fit in with enough room (didnt give it enough room, so didnt do that).

I decided with blowing down, radially, onto the mosfet heatsink, in order to cool the chokes and capacitors as well as the mosfets and mosfet heatsink.


Notice how it glows! Note the best pic, it does look cool though:


Now maybe I screwed up my temp diodes when putting the fan in, i mean they are tight in there, and I had to remove the motherboard from it's standoffs to get the fan wires behind the motherboard, but I made sure to keep them in place (spent like an hour seating my 2 cpu diodes, god damn they still won't read the cpu temp no matter where i stick them, damn hyper 212+ being exactly the same size as an am3 cpu and direct contact copper pipes taking entire temp load so the top of the base isnt warm at all)...

but I think this fan has resulted in at least 15-20*C of cooling. My vrm temps aren't going above 56*C when the lowest they've ever been under prime95 is 65*C, and more than likely they should read 75*C during prime95 under the voltage I have right now.

Why buy a high end motherboard? Just buy the cheapest piece of **** you can find and slap mosfet heatsinks and a fan on it!


----------



## xd_1771

Major update, 17th November

*Article shortened/made concise, all components placed into spoiler tags for easier reading*


----------



## ryan w

^^^^^very nice^^^^^^^
clean, informative, and always subscribed too!


----------



## nvidiaftw12

Perhaps make the bold text on the headings a bit smaller so it isn't so drastic, and make the whole first line a link, and take out the bracketed part.

Also, I added a link to your spreadsheet in the article, else you can't see it full, hope you're ok with that.


----------



## Obrien

Here's another VRM failure, didn't even OC









http://www.overclock.net/t/1336232/potential-psu-failure/10


----------



## xd_1771

Replied to that, with a better explanation on why. Really sad, indeed :/


----------



## Obrien

Now that I understand what happened I'm surprised it lasted almost a year. At least my new mobo will actually allow me to try overclocking.


----------



## xd_1771

Were you folding throughout that year, or just lately?


----------



## Obrien

Just started up again, I was folding earlier but the program stopped working. I reinstalled it last week or so. I've been getting hassled by my family for wasting electricity and stuff so I'm just going to let it lay low until I blow the joint in a few years.


----------



## xd_1771

It appears that MSI has taken on a first with its 970A-G46 board and has added a VRM over-voltage throttling technique. The first point that made me aware of this was a reviewer on Newegg:



While it is not clear with this review whether it is really over-voltage throttling or another thing called Advanced Power Management (APM - I think it has to do with the chip temperature more than the VRMs and happens on all boards with FX processors), I took to the MSI 970A-G46 webpage and found that a BIOS update released in December added an "OVT protection function". The single VRM failure with the 8-core on the 970A-G46 was recorded in September, but there have been no failures since.

*For the first time, I am marking down a low-end MSI AMD board as safe to use - however, I will also be marking its limited capacity with 8-core processors.*


----------



## nvidiaftw12




----------



## reflex99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nvidiaftw12*


related:


----------



## ryan w

sweet


----------



## v8punch

This is my first post here and it is a sad post.
My msi died two days after a short test in blender rendering a hd video.
after reading the forum, I turned off the 12v power processor and voila .... the motherboard came to life.
It seems more a fault of the vrm on octacore cpu, now without any overclocking.
What to do?
Usually the mobo for RMA and ride my pc with a refurbished card?(msi gave an option to take one refurbished 990FX and pay the diference)
Buy one msi 990FX? one gigabyte or asus?
Or would it be better to abandon my octacore and mount a intel?
PC components:
msi 970A - g46 (deceased)
fx 8120 (survived?)
2 X 4Gb corsair vengence


----------



## xd_1771

^ Do you remember the BIOS version you were using on your 970A?


----------



## v8punch

I tried but I can't rebember which bios version I have instaled.
I have disinstaled live update 5 1 ou 2 months ago.
I have tried to find some deamaged component on motherboard but I can't...
Motherboard on youtube without 12V conector turn on one fase light...


----------



## fishymamba

Wow, thank you very much for the detailed info, I learned a lot!


----------



## v8punch

bad news... processor gone to pc's heavem too...
what to do: buy other amd or one i5....????


----------



## nvidiaftw12

I would buy an i5 now days if you're sure it's dead. Really just a better value.


----------



## v8punch

I always use amd but now I'll change my cpu preferences.
I'll buy a I7, but I'll whait for 1150 socket. Are intel mb subjet to vrm failure too?


----------



## jsc1973

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v8punch*
> 
> I always use amd but now I'll change my cpu preferences.
> I'll buy a I7, but I'll whait for 1150 socket. Are intel mb subjet to vrm failure too?


VRM failure has happened on Intel motherboards, but it's not endemic.

What had been happening with AMD motherboards is not really AMD's fault. AMD publishes reliable TDP information on every processor it makes, and motherboard manufacturers are supposed to design their products with proper engineering for the CPU's they claim the board will support. They're not to blame when someone buys a board for 95W CPU's and tries to overclock an FX-8120 to 5 GHz on it and the board blows up, but if a board fails on a 'supported' CPU run within spec, that's a different story.

AMD really can't do much about poor quality motherboards. Intel probably can, because Intel is a much larger company, and could afford to just cut off the chipset supply to anyone who made crappy motherboards that reflect badly on Intel. A motherboard maker could probably survive without making AMD-based products, but not Intel. If AMD dropped MSI for making garbagey boards, they'd also lose MSI's high-volume and high-quality AMD graphics card business.


----------



## tatumthunderlip

Cooked my VRM (I'm pretty sure...) LinX stress testing a 3.9Ghz OC on my fx8120, shat the bed and wouldn't even light up. I was testing the power supply with the multi-meter at the cpu power line (which was running 12v steady), hit the power button and it started up to my absolute amazement. After pulling my rig apart and applying for RMA numbers from both MSI and AMD, thinking it might be either my CPU or my MoBo, I finally found this thread. Taking everyones advice and upgrading my MoBo... anyone want an MSI 1970A-G46? hahaha









Should have done my research and found this thread sooner.
I'm just it didnt decide to explode


----------



## xd_1771

What was the BIOS rev on yours? This is the second VRM failure since I declared the 970A-G46 a "safe to use" board based on the apparent addition of VRM protection with a recent BIOS update. Seems peculiar.


----------



## v8punch

My dead 970g46 has 1.9 bios on it before died, i remember because i did not instal 1.10...


----------



## xd_1771

OVT protection was "added" with 1.4, well before 1.9. I'm considering revoking a "safe to use" status on the G46 now. This is a stock speed failure... and then was followed with another failure incident after.


----------



## v8punch

I'm a long term AMD user (my old xp1700+ @ 2400 on abit nf7s 2.0 still rum rock solid), but now, after the disappointment with msi and AMD ...
that God forgive me ... I'll go to the dark side.... 3770k and gigabyte mb...


----------



## GarTheConquer

I just started my first ever overclocking (using my spare rig) when I was referred to this post.

Could I set it to stay at a constant 4.2GHz though?
Any recommended CPU offset?


----------



## Undervolter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *v8punch*
> 
> I'm a long term AMD user (my old xp1700+ @ 2400 on abit nf7s 2.0 still rum rock solid), but now, after the disappointment with msi and AMD ...
> that God forgive me ... I'll go to the dark side.... 3770k and gigabyte mb...


If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.


----------



## pinkominko

My story here









http://www.overclock.net/t/1048912/official-gigabyte-ga-990xa-970a-series-owners-club-help-thread-fx-8350-support-added/1650

p.s. Cooling was aftermarket air cooling. Transistors are: these http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/NTMFS4935N-D.PDF


----------



## SpykeZ

http://i.imgur.com/T9DzNgS.jpg

http://www.overclock.net/forum/newestpost/1377305

My story but not really a horror story. It was my fault lol. 5.2GHz with 1.583-1.6volts being pushed under IBT AVX.

I think what may have caused my issue was I knocked the heatsink during putting my watercooling together. I pshed like 1.56ish volts on my 965 and never had issues but that wasn't drawing near as much power and my 8350.

Next run: Pay more attention to cooling the VRM heatsink!!


----------



## aidhanc

I survived for about a year on a MSI 760GM-P23FX with my 1090t before upgrading my board.

The only reason I bought it was because at the time of purchase the 1090t was on the supported CPU list and because I was on a budget. A few months later I went on their website to grab some drivers and I noticed they had added a new notice about only supporting 95w CPUs, so I checked the supported cpu list and sure enough the 1090t had been removed.

It's a good thing I didn't try overclocking on that board, because every time turbo core kicked in or tried to run prime95 it would crash.


----------



## pinkominko

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pinkominko*
> 
> I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but if you have 970A-Series *rev 1.0 or 1.1* you should think about putting a heatsink over the MOSFETs near the CPU socket. Those MOSFETs are seriously overheating. Obviously GIGABYTE fixed this problem in rev. 1.4 and 3.0
> 
> VS
> 
> And here's how my board overheated after pushing the stock speed fx-8350 to full power for a week (click 2x for full size).


Some update.... fortunately Gigabyte honored the warranty. Unfortunately what I received was another MB rev.1.0







so I had no choice but to fix some DIY cooling for the VRM.

First I decided to do some measurements with an IR thermometer - After 5 min of full load the MOSFETs showed 110* C and the chokes near the FETs were 85* C - that's too much for only 5 min of work. Obviously the chokes need cooling as well - after all they conduct all the current that passes through the FETs.

Next I did some shopping on E-bay and found nice heatsinks - exactly the right size. First image is the heatsink for the coils and the second is the heatsink for the MOSFETs:
 

The same seller offers non-conductive thermal silicone - Glue Star922 which is pretty good:


I use a self-made aluminum frame because I have 20+ HDDs so I was able to fix a 120mm low speed fan, that I had around for some time, just on the top of the VRM group. Also I used the opportunity to install new water cooling and here it how it looks like now:
 

After I installed everything I ran a test for 20 min at full load - the temperature dropped to 80*C for the MOSFETs and 65*C for the chokes. Not bad at all considering that the heatsinks and the glue came for 6$ total with free shipping.

P.s. This is the same post as in *[Official] Gigabyte GA-990XA/970A-Series Owners' Club & Help Thread - FX-8350 support added*


----------



## CannedBullets

So I have an ASRock 970 Extreme3, any horror stories which weren't posted on the OP? Because I couldn't find any, I know my motherboard throttles overclocked 8-cores but I'm planning on overclocking an FX-6300 to 4.1 ghz so that shouldn't apply to me. Its also on the latest bios version, I didn't have to update it so I'm assuming my motherboard was manufactured after the latest bios release back in October 2012.


----------



## 2advanced

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CannedBullets*
> 
> So I have an ASRock 970 Extreme3, any horror stories which weren't posted on the OP? Because I couldn't find any, I know my motherboard throttles overclocked 8-cores but I'm planning on overclocking an FX-6300 to 4.1 ghz so that shouldn't apply to me. Its also on the latest bios version, I didn't have to update it so I'm assuming my motherboard was manufactured after the latest bios release back in October 2012.


I have the same mobo. It's a 4+1 Phase VRM board, and as you already noticed, not the best for overclocking the 8 core'd cpus. Im also running 6300 on it, paired with a 212 evo and although the vrm heatsink gets pretty hot, it does not throttle. Leaving "Load Line Calibration" disabled activates LLC for some strange reason. It wouldn't hurt to direct air to the vrm heatsink with a small fan, but it shouldn't be necessary.


----------



## CannedBullets

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2advanced*
> 
> I have the same mobo. It's a 4+1 Phase VRM board, and as you already noticed, not the best for overclocking the 8 core'd cpus. Im also running 6300 on it, paired with a 212 evo and although the vrm heatsink gets pretty hot, it does not throttle. Leaving "Load Line Calibration" disabled activates LLC for some strange reason. It wouldn't hurt to direct air to the vrm heatsink with a small fan, but it shouldn't be necessary.


So should I just leave LLC disabled or enabled to prevent vdroop?


----------



## lee321987

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xd_1771*
> 
> OCP can work in various ways; one of the ways it works is it downclocks the CPU speed & voltage - via cool'n'quiet or it's own function [...]"


Hello.
Can using a program like PhenomMsrTweaker or k10stat disable over-current protection?

Specifically on Asus motherboards.


----------



## Dukenukemx

Just got a new AMD FX 8350 as a gift, and decided to run Prime95 to see how high the temp gets. I have a water cooling setup, and the VRM's get extremely hot to the touch. Before I could stop the Prime95 test, the system BSOD and restarted. I tried getting more air floor by reversing one of the case fans to blow more air directly on it, and removed the heat sink for the VRM's, and put thermal compound instead of a thermal pad. It would still get hot to the touch, and I didn't have the courage to continue the test to see if the BSOD would happen again.

The motherboard I have is a ASRock 770iCafe and with a BIOS update it lists the 8350 as supported. Have no idea if the motherboard can really handle the new CPU or not. If not then I might get the GIGABYTE GA-970A-UD3P since it's a 8+2 board.

Can anyone tell if my board can handle this chip, and if not then can the Gigabyte do a better job? If ASRock is lying about the FX8350 being supported, that's the last motherboard I'll ever buy from them. They can go right next to Asus and Abit on my **** list, if Abit still existed.

BTW, pic of the heat sink that gets really hot.


----------



## morbid_bean

VERY informative thread. I find myself returning every now and then to refresh my self on this!


----------



## IMKR

does the info from OP apply to intel's mobos as well?

curious since its in the "AMD" section

also, how do you know how many "phases" your mobo has?

i cant tell by the description of OP/

can someone just give me a quick pic example?


----------



## cpmee

Quote:


> does the info from OP apply to intel's mobos as well?


Yes, and to any other electronic component in general as well. You just cant let the darn things get too hot, because first they get unstable, and second, they die.

Google your intel mobos reviews, and eventually youll stumble onto the number of phases it has, with pictures.


----------



## bidomo

I have an Asus Board wich seemed to had a VRM problem, amd I would like to contribute some input.

my config at the time of failure:
Motherboard: Asus M5A99X EVO Rev1
CPU: FX-8350
Cooler: Noctua NH-D14
RAM: Corsair 4x2 CMZ4GX3M1A1600C9
Video card: Asus Radeon HD 7970
SSD: Liteon LCM-256M3S 6Gbps 256GB
Storage: 2Tb Seagate barracuda 2 500GB WD Green
Optical: Pioner 16x BD-RW
Optional: 2 External HDD, 1 on Docking, 1 from Power eSata
PSU: Corsair TX850w
Chasis: ThermalTake Dokker

Was running @ 4.7 (multiplier only), don't remember the settings.

This happened in August 15 last year.

The computer just froze, while i was watching a video, it didn't got back from that state... had to cut power, tried to turn on, no response, leaved the computer alone (didn't remove power) and it suddenly started trying to get up, fans spinned, leds flashing, but never received enough power to get to the POST screen. I was thinking maybe PSU, tried it in another computer, everything ok.
The Motherboard had previous trouble with USBs, whenever I plugged a camera (with its own power) the Motherboard would stop recognizing USB sticks.

Might be related to VRM, they would usually run @ 45-48°C.

I remember seeing a DIY fix for this (with some little fans) in this forums, if anyone knows the thread or has a better solution, I would be glad to check it up.


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## cpmee

Yeah, put a fan blowing on the vrms and a fan blowing on the back of the mobo.

But your problem doesnt really sound like a vrm problem to me. I would try a fresh battery first, they can be the cause of flaky symptoms. Next I would try remounting the mobo to make sure it isnt shorting on a post.

If those dont help, is it too late to RMA your mobo ?


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## Neet_za

ecs A890gxm-a v1.0 died other week vrm popped, small black mark/hole (4th phase from the bottom

any advice, possible just to remove the damaged part? and hope it works? problem is i think it took the cpu with it...getting someone to test it for me.


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## Speedster159

Mt board is a 12+4 IIRC and upon probing the back I only saw 10 active caps that report VCore voltage and three sub voltages ( 2 VTT and 1 sub 1V reading )... any story on that? I sj
should be getting 12 for the CPU alone.


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## Dukenukemx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neet_za*
> 
> ecs A890gxm-a v1.0 died other week vrm popped, small black mark/hole (4th phase from the bottom
> 
> any advice, possible just to remove the damaged part? and hope it works? problem is i think it took the cpu with it...getting someone to test it for me.


Use a heatgun to heat the component and pull it off with a tweezer. Surround the area with foil to prevent damage. You can get a reducer for the heatgun so it only heats a small area.


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## LEOPEVA

I was able to transform a cheap mobo with 3+1 phase (ASUS M5A78L-M LX V2) in a powerfull overclock mobo, just using very cheap and small heatsinks ( i already had) and two tubes of artic alumina thermal adhesive, sorry for my english.


THIS IS THE MOBO WITHOUT VRM HEATSINKS:




HERE ATTACHING THE HEATSINKS TO THE CHOKES, DRIVERS AND MOSFETS WITH ARTIC ALUMINA THERMAL ADHESIVE, THIS PRODUCT IS AWESOME:






IN THE RED CIRCLES YOU CAN SEE THE GLUE (ARTIC ALUMINA:






HERE, HOW MOBO WAS BEFORE:




AND HERE, HOW LOOKS AFTER:





SOME BLACK SPRAY PAINT:






FINAL WORK WITH NEW NORTHBRIDGE AND SOUTHBRIDGE HEATSINKS, WITHOUT INTERFERING ANY PCIE EXPRESS PORT:


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## ronnin426850

oh god


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## Undervolter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neet_za*
> 
> ecs A890gxm-a v1.0 died other week vrm popped, small black mark/hole (4th phase from the bottom
> 
> any advice, possible just to remove the damaged part? and hope it works? problem is i think it took the cpu with it...getting someone to test it for me.


Ta Daaaaah! YES! Another victim of the infamous Nikos mosfets! Nikos, the bane of motherboards!


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## FreezeTime26

Well , i actually have a 960gm vgs3 fx (Now i know this is a ****ty motherboard) and i have fx 6300 temps hot , idle like 47º/50º Celsius and underload like 68º/69º.
I should go for a : asrock 970 extreme 3 , asus m5a97 r.2.0 or a GA-970A-D3? Im low of budget now , i buy my pc like a week ago.
Here are the images btw. (Idle)
http://imageshack.com/a/img633/1369/rgUEZE.png
Running bf3
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/7283/fWuo9C.png

Somebody know a temporary solution?
Or i just cant use my pc because can explode the processor?

Sorry for my english , this is not my native language.


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## Tsine

I have a gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 REV 4 and i have this weird VRM vr vrout voltage max reading of 31 volts ...Is this a wrong reading or my VRMS gone bad ?


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## Jayjr1105

Is there any harm in using a 3+1 phase board for a basic build with an A8-7600? No overclocking and no major gaming will be done. Maybe flash based games and Minecraft (no mods)

If I had to do it all over again I would probably make sure I got at least a 4+1 board but maybe it's not such a big deal as it was 4 years ago with AM3 boards.

FYI the board in question is an Asus A88XM-E ( I actually counted the chokes and it look's like there's 5 total, so maybe it's 3+2?)

Also, does it make a difference that the Asus VRM's claim to be digital?


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## jason387

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jayjr1105*
> 
> Is there any harm in using a 3+1 phase board for a basic build with an A8-7600? No overclocking and no major gaming will be done. Maybe flash based games and Minecraft (no mods)
> 
> If I had to do it all over again I would probably make sure I got at least a 4+1 board but maybe it's not such a big deal as it was 4 years ago with AM3 boards.
> 
> FYI the board in question is an Asus A88XM-E ( I actually counted the chokes and it look's like there's 5 total, so maybe it's 3+2?)
> 
> Also, does it make a difference that the Asus VRM's claim to be digital?


If they are 5, then it's 4+1.


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## Jayjr1105

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jason387*
> 
> If they are 5, then it's 4+1.


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## pizzaslice

Hi, I have a question about two Z170 motherboards

Asus ROG Maximus Ranger VIII

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132586

Asrock extreme 6

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157631

I was just wondering if anyone knew about the quality of each motherboard's MOSFETS and controllers and which motherboard was of the better quality in this respect.

Thanks

Also, where do you find this information?


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