# [VC] AMD Radeon HD 9000 Series Launching in October?



## Nemessss

Quote:


> June was surely a month of GeForce GTX 700 series. NVIDIA launched three cards in less than 30 days without any actual response from AMD.
> 
> If you thought that AMD engineers were on vacation then you are mistaken. Apparently they were working on new GPUs, especially a Hawaii silicon, which is believed to power the upcoming Radeon HD 9970 and HD 9950. Yes, that's not a typo, AMD will supposedly drop the HD 8000 naming reserved for OEM-parts, and use HD 9000 instead. This was rumored for a long time, but people were not convinced enough to confirmed it. According to my sources this is true, there won't be any Radeon HD 8970 non-OEM card, which if you think about actually makes sense. Imagine two cards having the same name, but different specs. Maybe now people will stop posting Radeon HD 8970 OEM datasheet as a news about a leaked document directly from AMD site (seriously don't do that).
> 
> According to ChinaDIY, AMD could be preparing its Radeon HD 9000 series for October, which is the launch month for Battlefield 4, a Gaming Evolved title. My information is more optimistic. Unless the roadmap has changed, AMD could show off the new series in September. Some sources even claim it could be the first week of September. Regardless of what month is it going to be, we are two or three months until the new series arrive. Most likely AMD will start with HD 9970, which if the rumors are true will be faster than GeForce GTX 780, but slower than GTX TITAN. However the big question is not the performance, but the price. If the card would cost $550, then we have a clear winner.
> 
> The Chinese source also claims that AMD will resurrect the Radeon 9550, only now with the HD-part. Interesting fact is that it's almost exactly 9 years since the launch of this card.


source: http://videocardz.com/43446/amd-radeon-hd-9000-series-launching-october
http://wccftech.com/amds-generation-volcanic-islands-gpus-possibly-launching-october-branded-hd-8000-series/

Official source: http://www.chinadiy.com.cn/html/92/n-10092.html


----------



## dph314

Quote:


> ...which if the rumors are true will be faster than GeForce GTX 780, but slower than GTX TITAN


That's quite a small bull's eye to hit, ha (just joking Alatar







)

Looking forward to what the 9970 brings.


----------



## Kosire

What they gonna do next year? Start over? AMD 100/200 series?


----------



## RKTGX95

i have a weird desire to buy a HD9970 in the hope it will come with a big poster of that Radeon pic










Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!















i agree with dph134, hitting between the 780 and the Titan is almost more difficult than making a card to surpass the Titan.


----------



## Dyson Poindexter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosire*
> 
> What they gonna do next year? Start over? AMD 100/200 series?


I just hope they don't go to a stupid naming scheme like they did with APU's


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosire*
> 
> What they gonna do next year? Start over? AMD 100/200 series?


10070 = doesn't look right does it. Prob change from HD to 3D and start over.


----------



## WorldExclusive

Every year, grand rumors about gpus never come true.
If this card is on the same process, this article is fud.


----------



## hollowtek

what amd will do is likely: 9970 performs on par with 780, add 3 free games, mark up the price the gtx 780 levels.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *s-x*
> 
> They need to make a video of a hobbit throwing the titan into the volcano, with a green smegle jumping in after it. Then it cuts to black and says "Dont be a mindless fanboy, try the new Radeon HD 9970 today"


If marketing picks this up they might do it xD


----------



## Sir Amik Vase

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hollowtek*
> 
> what amd will do is likely: 9970 performs on par with 780, add 3 free games, mark up the price the gtx 780 levels.


If they start using a 20nm process then I doubt they'd only get the same performance as a 780 which is still 28nm.
But your pricing is probably right, $550 for a 9970 sounds about right.
It's going to hurt getting crossfired 9970's on release day...


----------



## RobotDevil666

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hollowtek*
> 
> what amd will do is likely: 9970 performs on par with 780, add 3 free games, mark up the price the gtx 780 levels.


This^^

I lol'd when I've read that bit about performance being better than 780 but lower than Titan , like there is a difference , real world performance for those is non distinguishable , Titan will win in benchmarks but that's about it.
Sad part is be prepared for $650 AMD Radeon 9970 ........
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> If they start using a 20nm process then I doubt they'd only get the same performance as a 780 which is still 28nm.
> But your pricing is probably right, $550 for a 9970 sounds about right.
> It's going to hurt getting crossfired 9970's on release day...


I don't think it will be 20nm card , most likely a re-spin of current chips with some improvements.


----------



## BakerMan1971

This is exciting, it will be nice to see how these perform, as for the next generation , its about time they started naming things properly
Rage Fury Maxx did describe the user experience very well

Volcanic does make me worry though, I have enough heat in my system as it is, without adding very hot mag.......ma!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RKTGX95*
> 
> they should totally also do some kind of a "It's over 9000" ad or reference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to beat that marketing.


What is its power level!?
It is over 9000 *breaks Nvidia card with his hand*


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> This is exciting, it will be nice to see how these perform, as for the next generation , its
> Volcanic does make me worry though, I have enough heat in my system as it is, without adding very hot mag.......ma!


Their naming isn't up to speed yet I mean Bulldozer sounds large, slow and hot that goes for all their industrial names


----------



## KakaoDj

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> What is its power level!?
> It is over 9000 *breaks Nvidia card with his hand*


exactly what i thought


----------



## BakerMan1971

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Their naming isn't up to speed yet I mean Bulldozer sounds large, slow and hot that goes for all their industrial names


I think it just clicked, AMD name their cpu's after things that move a lot of stuff slowly... hmmm come on AMD next cpu has to be called zipper or Gonzales!


----------



## Moustache

Thanks for this "rumor". Been waiting for some rumors regarding AMD next GPUs and now its here. Now, we'll just have to wait for Steamroller and its build time!


----------



## s-x

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Their naming isn't up to speed yet I mean Bulldozer sounds large, slow and hot that goes for all their industrial names


Their desktop CPU codenames do sound badass though.


----------



## criminal

Awesome if true. Hopefully see some price drops and I can pick up a second Titan cheap.

Let's hope the name has nothing to do with how hot the chip will run though!


----------



## Kuivamaa

A 9970 with the rumored 2560 SPs will indeed have the capacity to sit in between GTX780 and the Titan but that depends on clocks. If that is the case, I predict a 600-650 $/ € price tag and a hefty game bundle of at least 4 AAA titles (BF4 and the such) going with it. Nvidia sets the prices ,AMD follows.


----------



## thestache

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> Awesome if true. Hopefully see some price drops and I can pick up a second Titan cheap.
> 
> Let's hope the name has nothing to do with how hot the chip will run though!


Pretty much. Hopefully it lowers GTX Titan pricing with some competition.

It could be a good option for 4K with two screen eyefinity if it competes with GK110, Nvidia drops the ball on two screen surround and single input 4K 60hz DP 1.2 monitors never happen.


----------



## Criminal1

I didn't see any mention of vram, I wonder if they will be the same like the 7k series with 3 gb vram. If they go 4 gb plus on these gpu, it will be double hurt for those people that bought expensive gpu.


----------



## RKTGX95

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> What is its power level!?
> It is over 9000 *breaks Nvidia card with his hand*


so many DBZ (and DBZ abridged ) references, so little time...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> I think it just clicked, AMD name their cpu's after things that move a lot of stuff slowly... hmmm come on AMD next cpu has to be called zipper or Gonzales!


Though a Bulldozer does move a lot of. heavy stuff, so you can't really complain with the naming. Actually, looking at the AMD CPU roadmap it slowly improves each gen by naming alone.

If it was up to me, i would name the CPU line something like Terminator or Tommy Vercetti or something similarly badass







(which is why i am NOT in charge of a microprocessor company







)

btw, zipper might be a not too pleasing association


----------



## HeadlessKnight

I hope HD9970 to be GTX 780 killer. They don't need to kill the overpriced Titan to compete IMHO.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RobotDevil666*
> 
> This^^
> 
> I lol'd when I've read that bit about performance being better than 780 but lower than Titan , like there is a difference , real world performance for those is non distinguishable , Titan will win in benchmarks but that's about it.


This is only true when you add overclocking to the equation. but at stock there is a 10-15% difference. But at max OC the difference is questionable depending on the samples.


----------



## BakerMan1971

in my view I hope the top end card absolutely floors the Titan in every way possible, we need as much competition in the market as possible, and with only 2 main players, it needs to be contentious!


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> in my view I hope the top end card absolutely floors the Titan in every way possible, we need as much competition in the market as possible, and with only 2 main players, it needs to be contentious!


Not sure that is possible if these are 28nm. Plus, if they somehow beat the Titan with these cards, I don't see them being $550.


----------



## BakerMan1971

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> Not sure that is possible if these are 28nm. Plus, if they somehow beat the Titan with these cards, I don't see them being $550.


You are most likely completely correct, but it would be nice, and of course the top products are always priced pretty high so the likes of me have to go for a mid-range offering.


----------



## Regent Square

Wow, this article is definitely a fud in a certain way.

October release-wont happen, too late(20nm are not too far away) and EA has to officially public BF4 specs 1-2 months before the release.

September- seems more likely, though I thought of a July/August release, the opinion I will stay with. Before 700x were launched every site claimed of the Titan series line up with no mention of 700x and the release date being far off of what it actually is(May 23).


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> will be faster than GeForce GTX 780, but slower than GTX TITAN. However the big question is not the performance, but the price. If the card would cost *$550*,


IF this turns out to be true.......you can put me down for two 9970's please.









I'm definitely waiting for real results to come in from OCN members and early adopters before committing.


----------



## Dyson Poindexter

Since when does a smaller feature size increase performance?


----------



## Criminal1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dyson Poindexter*
> 
> Since when does a smaller feature size increase performance?


SSD bud.


----------



## zealord

I don't think a 28nm 9970 with ~780 performance could overclock as well as a 780 does. I just don't see this happening for AMD.

I'd rather AMD takes more time and releases a 20nm 9970 to put pressure on Nvidia, who are forced to release new cards in early-mid 2014 then.


----------



## Crouch

Hmm... interesting


----------



## Waltibaba

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> 10070 = doesn't look right does it. Prob change from HD to 3D and start over.


Or what they did last time they were in this situation: x000 then x1000 until enough generations pass that they can drop the X


----------



## Adversity

Anyone want to guess as to how much used 7970s will sell for, after this launch?


----------



## Pantsu

I'll probably get another 7970 if they finally fix the stutters and the prices drop <300€. If they really release next gen in september/october it's going to be 28 nm and not likely to be all that much more powerful or increase the perf/price much.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hollowtek*
> 
> what amd will do is likely: 9970 performs on par with 780, add 3 free games, mark up the price the gtx 780 levels.


How would they be marking up the price if it is the same as a 780?


----------



## Humafold

Quote:


> Anyone want to guess as to how much used 7970s will sell for, after this launch?


I would assume nothing short of about 50% of the cost of a HD9970. If they did launch at around $550, I could see $250-$275. Of course, this would all depend on the July CF driver release. If CS is fixed, then you would likely see more people buying 2nd 7970's versus a 9970. This is all conjecture of course.


----------



## dph314

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jomama22*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *hollowtek*
> 
> what amd will do is likely: 9970 performs on par with 780, add 3 free games, mark up the price the gtx 780 levels.
> 
> 
> 
> How would they be marking up the price if it is the same as a 780?
Click to expand...

I think he means mark up the price to the price of the 780 as in not undercutting Nvidia. Instead of setting the price below Nvidia's competing product, they'll price it very similar and instead of the price being an incentive, free games will be.

But I think with a couple games included, anywhere from 5 to $600 is possible, depending on performance of course.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

This seems utterly plausible to me and goes pretty much with what I've said since the beginning of the year that AMD would release their next generation by fall 2013. They wouldn't bother unless it was on par with the 780 so I can easily see the 9970 being between Titan and the 780 (or even possibly faster than Titan, though doubtful). Just wish they had been able to compete more directly with the 7xx series...


----------



## bossie2000

Quote:


> Since when does a smaller feature size increase performance?


If you going into a smaller process and keep the same die size, then it's possible to put in more shaders and gpu futures than with the older 28mm process.
That's how i (me brain) pictures it.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Who's gonna buy a HD 9970 anyway?

Not me.

I'll buy *4*


----------



## Criminal1

I'm going to save for 3 - 9970.


----------



## bossie2000

Quote:


> I'll buy 4


If "crossfire" is fixed , it will be a killer rig!!


----------



## Criminal1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> This seems utterly plausible to me and goes pretty much with what I've said since the beginning of the year that AMD would release their next generation by fall 2013. They wouldn't bother unless it was on par with the 780 so I can easily see the 9970 being between Titan and the 780 (or even possibly faster than Titan, though doubtful). *Just wish they had been able to compete more directly with the 7xx series..*.


They were preping for all the console contract, Now that they got that out of the way, it's gpu time and then some.


----------



## Ukkooh

I hope it runs hot and scales well with better cooling so I'll finally have a proper excuse to do my first wc loop.


----------



## RKTGX95

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> Who's gonna buy a HD 9970 anyway?
> 
> Not me.
> 
> I'll buy *4*


and i'll buy a ticket to see the outcome beast









but really, might really buy 2 more 7970/50 at ~launch time or even go overboard and get a 7990 and 7970 to have the weirdest / coolest CF Setup







(7990+7970+7950)


----------



## Roaches

Was really hoping for 20nm process. I want muh 4096 stream processors









I take it these are 28nm with 2304 SP?

I'd probably grab 2 MSI lightnings if the benches smashes GTX 700 series...then again theres always maxwell to wait for


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> This seems utterly plausible to me and goes pretty much with what I've said *since the beginning of the year that AMD would release their next generation by fall 2013*. They wouldn't bother unless it was on par with the 780 so I can easily see the 9970 being between Titan and the 780 (or even possibly faster than Titan, though doubtful). Just wish they had been able to compete more directly with the 7xx series...


You are basing it off of rumors. The best place of a legit info


----------



## maarten12100

You guys remember how we're joking just a few hours ago what if they release this as 8970 and then release the 9970 as 20nm card and it has over 9 billion transistors it is over 9000 * 10^6! (while also being over 9000 in naming.)


----------



## Yvese

This 9970 already wins in my book if it comes bundled with BF4 and possibly Watch Dogs since they're both gaming evolved titles.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> This 9970 already wins in my book if it comes bundled with BF4 and possibly Watch Dogs since they're both gaming evolved titles.


Me too

*HD 9970 at 550$**+ CrossFire Fix + Battlefield 4 =* *Nvidia Killer*


----------



## Dudewitbow

darn, i wanted the 9k series to be 20nm


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> *HD 9970 with 6GB VRAM and Titan performance at stock speeds at USD 600 $**+ CrossFire Fix + Battlefield 4 =* *Nvidia Killer*


there corrected for you.


----------



## Usario

Did the source literally mean that they're going to produce a card called HD 9550 that will offer the kind of amazing value the original Radeon 9550 offered? Because I don't see how that's going to fit in their current naming scheme, you know, with x500 being the second to lowest series of cards....


----------



## Matt26LFC

Interesting, if this is true I may have to buy another 7970 and WC that one too, now If I could only be bothered to drain my loop, flush my rads and put my Heatkiller watercooled 7970 in my rig, sometimes I hate WC lol


----------



## Blackops_2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adversity*
> 
> Anyone want to guess as to how much used 7970s will sell for, after this launch?


Going to sale mine for 250$ to my brother if it's true I imagine you'll see them around there. Though i imagine being reference for a water cooler i could get a little more. It's hard to come by reference 7970s now a days.


----------



## ahnafakeef

If the 9970 comes with slightly more than 780's performance at $500-$550 in October, it begs the question - would the 5 months of waiting (from May to October) for getting a 780-equivalent card over a 780 really be worth saving that $100-$150?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ahnafakeef*
> 
> If the 9970 comes with slightly more than 780's performance at $500-$550 in October, it begs the question - would the 5 months of waiting (from May to October) for getting a 780-equivalent card over a 780 really be worth saving that $100-$150?


Yes because Maxwell is ages away + these cards aren't gimped + you can overclock those card freely(90% probable)
Besides that the release date might be earlier but if we don't get it with those CF drivers then it would probably be pushed to sep/oct


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ahnafakeef*
> 
> If the 9970 comes with slightly more than 780's performance at $500-$550 in October, it begs the question - would the 5 months of waiting (from May to October) for getting a 780-equivalent card over a 780 really be worth saving that $100-$150?


AMD with their crossfire fix will own Nvidia with scaling with multi-GPUs.

GK110 is very bad at scaling while AMD are very good with this.

I don't even have Quad SLI Titan or Quad SLI 780 results because users know its not ever worth it to have more than 3 nvidia cards. Three GK110 cards have worst scaling than four tahiti XT


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> AMD with their crossfire fix will own Nvidia with scaling with multi-GPUs.
> 
> GK110 is very bad at scaling while AMD are very good with this.
> 
> I don't even have Quad SLI Titan or Quad SLI 780 results because users know its not ever worth it to have more than 3 nvidia cards. Three GK110 cards have worst scaling than four tahiti XT


I wonder if that will ever change for Nvidia? Not that I would ever own four cards at one time of either brand.


----------



## Doomtomb

Maybe once their cards stop running so hot and loud and being 2 inches longer than the equivalent Nvidia card with software like GeForce Experience or 3D Vision I will consider AMD as an option.


----------



## Blackops_2

I thought Vega's Titan scaled pretty well in Quad-SLi?


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I wonder if that will ever change for Nvidia? Not that I would ever own four cards at one time of either brand.


Me too.









If Nvidia would have good scaling, I would already have GTX 780 or Titans.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Doomtomb*
> 
> Maybe once their cards stop running so hot and loud and being 2 inches longer than the equivalent Nvidia card with software like GeForce Experience or 3D Vision I will consider AMD as an option.


You mean gimp compute and make a good cooler design because GCN is actually more efficient than Nvidia's offerings if they gimped the compute cores (hd7750 is a good example of how efficient)


----------



## Yvese

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ahnafakeef*
> 
> If the 9970 comes with slightly more than 780's performance at $500-$550 in October, it begs the question - would the 5 months of waiting (from May to October) for getting a 780-equivalent card over a 780 really be worth saving that $100-$150?


Of course.

Keep in mind you also forgot the 9970 will likely come with game bundles. Most notably BF4 and possibly Watch Dogs.

When you consider the fact that no game out today really taxes current GPUs unless you game at insanely high resolutions, waiting 5 months is worth it unless you're impatient and/or just like to bench.

Oct is also the perfect time for new hardware with BF4 and Rome Total War releasing around that time


----------



## yesitsmario

It would be awesome if an overclocked 9970 can edge an overclocked Titan for $550.


----------



## Blackops_2

BF4 and Watch Dogs would be a ridiculous bundle. If it really is equal to the 780 those two games would sell it alone. Granted we know BF4 is going to be bundled. I'm interested to hear more about watch dogs. It's also worthy to note what kind of performance would we expect from the 9950?


----------



## RKTGX95

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> Of course.
> 
> Keep in mind you also forgot the 9970 will likely come with game bundles. Most notably BF4 and possibly Watch Dogs.
> 
> When you consider the fact that no game out today really taxes current GPUs unless you game at insanely high resolutions, waiting 5 months is worth it unless you're impatient and/or just like to bench.
> 
> Oct is also the perfect time for new hardware with BF4 and Rome Total War releasing around that time


yeah i agree. 5 months is worth it. (some people here forget how fast 5 months can go by.it is like a year and a half ago, my rig, seems like a month and a half to me







)


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yesitsmario*
> 
> It would be awesome if an overclocked 9970 can edge an overclocked Titan for $550.


To be honest, if it edges out a stock Titan @ $550 I am going to be impressed.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosire*
> 
> What they gonna do next year? Start over? AMD 100/200 series?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> 10070 = doesn't look right does it. Prob change from HD to 3D and start over.


When they hit 9000 series ATI added an X

As far as game bundles, Battlefield 4 , Company of Heroes 2, among other big AAA titles are supposed to be int he next bundle.

To top it off, unlike the GTX 770 it's an actual core change (GTX 780 is inaccessible to most people).
---
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> You mean gimp compute and make a good cooler design because GCN is actually more efficient than Nvidia's offerings if they gimped the compute cores (hd7750 is a good example of how efficient)


AMD's _double precision_ compute is less gimped on Pitcairn(1/16 FP64) and Cape Verde (1/16 FP64) than GTX 780 (1/24), GK104 (1/24) , GK106 (1/24). Tahiti is 1/4 FP64 while TITAN is 1/3 FP64.

(edit for clarity)


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blackops_2*
> 
> BF4 and Watch Dogs would be a ridiculous bundle. If it really is equal to the 780 those two games would sell it alone. Granted we know BF4 is going to be bundled. I'm interested to hear more about watch dogs. It's also worthy to note what kind of performance would we expect from the 9950?


10% higher that 7970


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> When they hit 900 series then added an X
> 
> Probably HDX1900 for example


Wouldn't that make it HD Xxxx (as the X is a 10)


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blackops_2*
> 
> BF4 and Watch Dogs would be a ridiculous bundle. If it really is equal to the 780 those two games would sell it alone. Granted we know BF4 is going to be bundled. I'm interested to hear more about watch dogs. It's also worthy to note what kind of performance would we expect from the 9950?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> 10% higher that 7970


I think the HD 9970 would be equal to GTX Titan and a HD 9950 would be equal or little less than a GTX 780.

I expect the HD 9950 to be *25% - 30% faster* than a HD 7970


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> I think the HD 9970 would be equal to GTX Titan and a HD 9950 would be equal or little less than a GTX 780.
> 
> I expect the HD 9950 to be *25% - 30% faster* than a HD 7970


I was basing it of that earlier rumour would be very nice if it were though


----------



## bossie2000

No!!!! you guys are aiming to high.If it's a refresh on 28 nm (like nvidia did) it will be more like 9970= gtx780 (+-) and a 9950 = gtx 680.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bossie2000*
> 
> No!!!! you guys are aiming to high.If it's a refresh on 28 nm (like nvidia did) it will be more like 9970= gtx780 (+-) and a 9950 = gtx 680.


GTX 680 refresh is the GTX 770, they both use the same GK104 chips.

While AMD HD 9900 series will be a completly new chip. (Called Hawaii XT, the HD 7970 was Tahiti XT)

Check this part below, you have to read the news article before commenting








Quote:


> If you thought that AMD engineers were on vacation then you are mistaken. Apparently they were working on new GPUs, especially a *Hawaii silicon*, which is believed to power the upcoming Radeon HD 9970 and HD 9950


In other word, its a new silicon, new chip


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bossie2000*
> 
> No!!!! you guys are aiming to high.If it's a refresh on 28 nm (like nvidia did) it will be more like 9970= gtx780 (+-) and a 9950 = gtx 680.


Refresh?

AMD said they would launch a new architecture.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6751/amd-reiterates-2013-gpu-plans-sea-islands-beyond
Quote:


> they will be introducing a new GPU microarchitecture by the end of 2013


Maybe derived from GCN but consider the jumps in performance we say between HD2k through HD5k series I'd say there's a chance it could be something good.


----------



## HeadlessKnight

IMO 9970 to equal a Titan is way too optimistic, if it is really equal a Titan ATI won't be stupid to price it $550. ATI is a business company that aims to increase its profits to stay alive, it is not a charity company. Just see how they priced HD7990 $1000 to make prices constant, because they can. There must be something forces them to drop prices, just like what happened with HD7970 when GTX 680 came out and outsold the 7970.
At best HD9950 will be around 8-10% better than 7970 GE -IMO- and HD9970 will tie a GTX 780, I don't think ATI can make a chip that is more powerful than the best GK100, they just got lucky this time with HD7000 series and Nvidia's GK104 bandwidth constraints. IMHO I don't see ATI to take the crown from Nvidia again anytime soon. I hope so, more competition is always good for costumers but I don't see this happening this generation at least.


----------



## Criminal1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeadlessKnight*
> 
> IMO 9970 to equal a Titan is way too optimistic, if it is really equal a Titan ATI won't be stupid to price it $550. ATI is a business company that aims to increase its profits to stay alive, it is not a charity company. Just see how they priced HD7990 $1000 to make prices constant. There must be something forces them to drop prices, just like what happened with HD7970 when GTX 680 came out and outsold the 7970.
> At best HD9950 will be around 8-10% better than 7970 GE -IMO- and HD9970 will tie a GTX 780, I don't think ATI can make a chip that is more powerful than the best GK100, they just got lucky this time with HD7000 series and Nvidia's GK104 bandwidth constraints. IMHO I don't see ATI to take the crown from Nvidia again anytime soon. I hope so, more competition is always good for costumers but I don't see this happening this generation at least.


It will happen. AMD is on the rise.


----------



## ALEXH-

I want them to release a special 9999 Edition. I'll be waiting. Until then I'll enjoy the 780 SC









ps. Expectations are very high in this thread. If 9970 gives same/similar performance to 780 at much lower price, there is a win right there. Low prices is what AMD does


----------



## FranBunnyFFXII

Any word on the mobile chips?


----------



## Alatar

Unless AMD is changing their small die strategy for something different the people who are guessing that the 9970 will outperform the Titan (especially after OCing) are setting themselves up for a disappointment.

AMD has never been able to beat Nvidia's big GPGPU dies on the same process and I don't really have any reason to believe that they would start now considering that the gap between AMD's best GPU and Nvidia's best GPU is bigger than it has been since the original big GPGPU die based card, the 8800GTX. Last time Nvidia had a performance lead like they have now was back in 2007....

And then there's OCing to consider, as pcgameshardware.de pointed out with their Titan article, the GK110 based chips will see performance increases of up to 35-40% after overclocking. So AMD not only has to increase performance over 35% over their own 7970GE that's already at 250W but also has to be able to offer as good or better OCing potential in order to beat a Titan. An extremely unlikely scenario tbh.

But if it does well I look forward to picking one up for some tweaking. AMD is fun under cold. That's assuming they don't pull a HD6000 though....
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FranBunnyFFXII*
> 
> Any word on the mobile chips?


The 8970M was launched in May....


----------



## Sir Amik Vase

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FranBunnyFFXII*
> 
> Any word on the mobile chips?


Desktop and mobile chips are usually released at separate intervals.


----------



## FranBunnyFFXII

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Unless AMD is changing their small die strategy for something different the people who are guessing that the 9970 will outperform the Titan (especially after OCing) are setting themselves up for a disappointment.
> 
> AMD has never been able to beat Nvidia's big GPGPU dies on the same process and I don't really have any reason to believe that they would start now considering that the gap between AMD's best GPU and Nvidia's best GPU is bigger than it has been since the original big GPGPU die based card, the 8800GTX. Last time Nvidia had a performance lead like they have now was back in 2007....
> 
> And then there's OCing to consider, as pcgameshardware.de pointed out with their Titan article, the GK110 based chips will see performance increases of up to 35-40% after overclocking. So AMD not only has to increase performance over 35% over their own 7970GE that's already at 250W but also has to be able to offer as good or better OCing potential in order to beat a Titan. An extremely unlikely scenario tbh.
> 
> But if it does well I look forward to picking one up for some tweaking. AMD is fun under cold. That's assuming they don't pull a HD6000 though....
> The 8970M was launched in May....


The hd8970 mobile is a rebranded 7970 mobile.

I'm talking about the direct south islands/Solar arch AMD mobile chips.


----------



## maarten12100

It kinda depends on whether they gimp the power hungry compute cores and focus on gaming if they do it seems pretty do-able (remember the GK110 wasn't really made for gaming even though Nvidia did this a lot)
AMD seems to be going all out recently but Alatar is right about one thing(beating the Titan is unlikely) only the future can tell though.


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Unless AMD is changing their small die strategy for something different the people who are guessing that the 9970 will outperform the Titan (especially after OCing) are setting themselves up for a disappointment.
> 
> AMD has never been able to beat Nvidia's big GPGPU dies on the same process and I don't really have any reason to believe that they would start now considering that the gap between AMD's best GPU and Nvidia's best GPU is bigger than it has been since the original big GPGPU die based card, the 8800GTX. Last time Nvidia had a performance lead like they have now was back in 2007....
> 
> And then there's OCing to consider, as pcgameshardware.de pointed out with their Titan article, the GK110 based chips will see performance increases of up to 35-40% after overclocking. So AMD not only has to increase performance over 35% over their own 7970GE that's already at 250W but also has to be able to offer as good or better OCing potential in order to beat a Titan. An extremely unlikely scenario tbh.
> 
> But if it does well I look forward to picking one up for some tweaking. AMD is fun under cold. That's assuming they don't pull a HD6000 though....
> The 8970M was launched in May....


Yea bro, AMD will have a hard time pulling ahead of a Titan







If 780 is marginally close to it, AMD`s 9970 should outperform Titan easily as the real world fps difference is 3-6 fps. Plus your Titan is poorly optimized. Nvidia released 2 drivers already with no mention of *700 series*(I am not even talking about Titan/780). Or do you *really* think 50% more bandwidth/steam processors result in 30% improvement>


----------



## Sir Beregond

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosire*
> 
> What they gonna do next year? Start over? AMD 100/200 series?


Well since it is "HD 7XXX" right now, they will probably start over and just use a different prefix instead of HD. That's my guess anyway.


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Regent Square*
> 
> Yea bro, AMD will have a hard time pulling ahead of a Titan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If 780 is marginally close to it, AMD`s 9970 should outperform Titan easily as the real world fps difference is 3-6 fps. Plus your Titan is poorly optimized. Nvidia released 2 drivers already with no mention of *700 series*(I am not even talking about Titan/780). Or do you *really* think 50% more bandwidth/steam processors result in 30% improvement>


I guarantee you that there are more Titan haters out there that are anticipating angry Titan owners than there will be actually angry Titan owners. If the 9970 is indeed faster and cheaper then the Titan, than most of us welcome this from AMD. It is very strange to me that there are many on this site that wish for things like this so you can rub someone's face in it.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *svenge*
> 
> Better than making wildly optimistic predictions that have no basis in reality (past or present) and then attacking people for not falling for your party line.


I can't wait to see the performance of it.

Can you explain me how come it is widly optimistic? They are doing a new silicon for it !

By the way, can you post a score in the Valley thread with your Titan? You will also be the first i7 4770k.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> he is just trying to be realistic. if amd makes a large die, how much will it consume 275W? and if its oced how much will it consume then 350W? i wish you really good luck making a quadfire out of it. no really i like you Karlitos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alatar is raising realistic points
> 
> i would rather be interested if they would not make a 4.5gb vram cards, now that would make me as 780 owner cry a little
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> best
> revro


GCN would be more efficient than Kepler if they gimped compute though so there is potential for gaming improvement.
Quadfire is mostly watercooled so no problem there.
I sincerly hope it will be superior even though I won't be getting it (upgrade @20nm)


----------



## PwrElec

uhmm... bring on the quad fire 9970! <3


----------



## jomama22

I'll stick to tri-fire. If its under $600 I will buy 6-8 just to bin.


----------



## Sir Beregond

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I guarantee you that there are more Titan haters out there that are anticipating angry Titan owners than there will be actually angry Titan owners. If the 9970 is indeed faster and cheaper then the Titan, than most of us welcome this from AMD. It is very strange to me that there are many on this site that wish for things like this so you can rub someone's face in it.


No kidding. Titan owners got what was the best at the time. We should all hope better and cheaper cards come out. No need to rub it in people's faces.

Anyway, I am really excited to see what AMD brings to the table. More competition, the better for us as consumers.


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I guarantee you that there are more Titan haters out there that are anticipating angry Titan owners than there will be actually angry Titan owners. If the 9970 is indeed faster and cheaper then the Titan, *than most of us* welcome this from AMD. It is very strange to me that there are many on this site that wish for things like this so you can rub someone's face in it.


Made me laugh. There was a huge rage ofTitan owners when 780 launched. Now you say you will welcome it; pffss.

Maybe, when you have nothing else to do other than to admit that you overpaid 500$ for a card that is on the same level/slightly worse than an alternative product.

Were you taught " speak for yourself" type of behavior; because it replaces the phrase I highlighted in your post.


----------



## revro

well these top cards can get you 60+fps @1440P in anything aside crysis3/metro ll so in a year or two we will have 860/960 that can provide that much fps to 98% of gamers on single 1080/1440/1600p and then i see it very bad for gpu companies. at least amd has wider portfolio than nvidia

best
revro


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> well these top cards can get you 60+fps @1440P in anything aside crysis3/metro ll so in a year or two we will have 860/960 that can provide that much fps to 98% of gamers on single 1080/1440/1600p and then i see it very bad for gpu companies. at least amd has wider portfolio than nvidia
> 
> best
> revro


2160P/2400P @ 120Hz (even though you won't need that much AA anymore people will still max for the sake of maxing unnecessary things.)


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Please be a 9700 PRO.


----------



## King Lycan

October is so far off.... I don;t think I can resist the 770 any longer


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> 2160P/2400P @ 120Hz (even though you won't need that much AA anymore people will still max for the sake of maxing unnecessary things.)


i would love it. but how many gamers would drop money on those monitors? and i believe even 5 years down the road there wont be 120hz 2160P/2400P. its too many bad pixels amd people nor developers would go for it

also i think you could feed 2400p with 3sli 780 once they make good drivers for 7xx series, well 780sli is perfect for 1600p

best
revro


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Regent Square*
> 
> Made me laugh. There was a huge rage ofTitan owners when 780 launched. Now you say you will welcome it; pffss.
> 
> Maybe, when you have nothing else to do other than to admit that you overpaid 500$ for a card that is on the same level/slightly worse than an alternative product.
> 
> Were you taught " speak for yourself" type of behavior; because it replaces the phrase I highlighted in your post.


That was a little bit of a different situation. You don't expect that type of thing to happen from the same company... lol. I will admit I was a little peeved about the 780, but mainly because they are allowing non-reference designs of the 780. Anyway, I am over it now.

Any person in their right mind would fully expect the competition to release something sooner or later.

Edit: Yeah, I overpaid. I have already admitted that quite a few times. But I knew I was overpaying when I bought my Titan. People often have to overpay to get certain things. Not the first time and I am sure it will not be the last.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Please be a 9700 PRO.


That would be awesome! I absolutely loved my 9700.


----------



## Blackops_2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeadlessKnight*
> 
> IMO 9970 to equal a Titan is way too optimistic, if it is really equal a Titan ATI won't be stupid to price it $550. ATI is a business company that aims to increase its profits to stay alive, it is not a charity company. Just see how they priced HD7990 $1000 to make prices constant, because they can. There must be something forces them to drop prices, just like what happened with HD7970 when GTX 680 came out and outsold the 7970.
> At best HD9950 will be around 8-10% better than 7970 GE -IMO- and HD9970 will tie a GTX 780, I don't think ATI can make a chip that is more powerful than the best GK100, they just got lucky this time with HD7000 series and Nvidia's GK104 bandwidth constraints. IMHO I don't see ATI to take the crown from Nvidia again anytime soon. I hope so, more competition is always good for costumers but I don't see this happening this generation at least.


Agreed, i have a hard time seeing the 9970 best 780 much less Titan, less this is a very early release of 20nm process. 9950 20% improved upon the 7970 would be amazing honestly. Either way i guess we'll see. A 30% jump on the same process just seems too wishful.


----------



## KSIMP88

New 9800PRO?


----------



## mcg75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> If the 9970 is indeed faster and cheaper then the Titan, than most of us welcome this from AMD.


Absolutely. Competition is to the benefit of every single person here who buys discrete gpus.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> It is very strange to me that there are many on this site that wish for things like this so you can rub someone's face in it.


It's not strange to me. The maturity level of many here leaves a lot to be desired. It's completely nonsensical to hate a company the way some of them do.....on both sides. There are days when I wish AMD would surpass Nvidia's market share just so we could see the look on their faces when this "price/performance" nonsense is squashed by AMD because they don't need it anymore. On that day only will they realize that both AMD and Nvidia exist to drain our wallets and hating one and loving the other is absurd.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> i would love it. but how many gamers would drop money on those monitors? and i believe even 5 years down the road there wont be 120hz 2160P/2400P. its too many bad pixels amd people nor developers would go for it
> 
> also i think you could feed 2400p with 3sli 780 once they make good drivers for 7xx series, well 780sli is perfect for 1600p
> 
> best
> revro


I would love to get my screen to 120Hz but there really is a 0.001% chance of that happening unless this is the most solid driver board in the world I consider myself lucky if it can handle 60Hz/67Hz once the HDMI 2.0 spec comes along.


----------



## Blackops_2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mcg75*
> 
> Absolutely. Competition is to the benefit of every single person here who buys discrete gpus.
> It's not strange to me. The maturity level of many here leaves a lot to be desired. It's completely nonsensical to hate a company the way some of them do.....on both sides. There are days when I wish AMD would surpass Nvidia's market share just so we could see the look on their faces when this "price/performance" nonsense is squashed by AMD because they don't need it anymore. On that day only will they realize that both AMD and Nvidia exist to drain our wallets and hating one and loving the other is absurd.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## farmdve

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dyson Poindexter*
> 
> I just hope they don't go to a stupid naming scheme like they did with APU's


HD110X


----------



## PureBlackFire

If these are any good they should bring back the "pro" moniker. HD 9800 Pro sounds nice (maybe make x8xx high end again eh?) for the top end card..


----------



## sdlvx

Some of you are a little pessimistic on AMD and you're forgetting GCN is brand new while Kepler is a fermi tweaked for performance per watt. AMD has a lot more room to improve GCN and if their GPU engineers are anything like their CPU engineers, the second refresh is the one that's a killer.

Titan is already 4 months old, if 9970 comes out in October, it'll be around 8 months old. Given that age I don't see it maintaining the crown for that long. Hang around a place like B3D and you will quickly learn that, while GCN based cards are very good right now, they have some large bottlenecks that can be fixed. So 30% more shaders can mean more than 30% more performance if the shaders aren't getting bottlenecked by something else.

I also expect this to launch next to the next gen consoles or by big fall game releases. I'm expecting AMD to make a big push at this time for PC gaming and flaunting Gaming Evolved all over the place, and kind of riding on the coat tails of PS4 and XDone's publicity of new games. If the next gen is later, they'll at least launch it with BF4, but probably no sooner than the BF4 launch date. THe marketing guy at AMD's GPU division is pretty darn good and he's probably pretty aware that if they start selling 9970s with BF4 bundle a few weeks before BF4 launches, a whole lot of people who were thinking about a new card but weren't actually going to get one are going to get one since they're getting BF4 anyways.

I am, however, rather disappointed. I wanted the 9000 series to be 20nm so I could do a complete loop from 9700 pro to 9970, I simply can't justify going from 7970 to 9970 this soon when all I do is play LoL and 3DS.

But some of you guys are crazy. You really think AMD won't be able to squeeze 30% performance out of a chip after they've had GCN released for a year and a half? If 9970 doesn't gain 30% it's going to be one of the longest times in GPU history for the least amount of performance increase. It'd even be closing in on Intel performance level gains.


----------



## SilentKilla78

America: $550. Australia: $750. Sure will hurt getting one of these bad boys if it follows the same trend that PC hardware follows over here in Aus


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sdlvx*
> 
> Some of you are a little pessimistic on AMD and you're forgetting GCN is brand new while Kepler is a fermi tweaked for performance per watt. AMD has a lot more room to improve GCN and if their GPU engineers are anything like their CPU engineers, the second refresh is the one that's a killer.
> 
> Titan is already 4 months old, if 9970 comes out in October, it'll be around 8 months old. Given that age I don't see it maintaining the crown for that long. Hang around a place like B3D and you will quickly learn that, while GCN based cards are very good right now, they have some large bottlenecks that can be fixed. So 30% more shaders can mean more than 30% more performance if the shaders aren't getting bottlenecked by something else.
> 
> I also expect this to launch next to the next gen consoles or by big fall game releases. I'm expecting AMD to make a big push at this time for PC gaming and flaunting Gaming Evolved all over the place, and kind of riding on the coat tails of PS4 and XDone's publicity of new games. If the next gen is later, they'll at least launch it with BF4, but probably no sooner than the BF4 launch date. THe marketing guy at AMD's GPU division is pretty darn good and he's probably pretty aware that if they start selling 9970s with BF4 bundle a few weeks before BF4 launches, a whole lot of people who were thinking about a new card but weren't actually going to get one are going to get one since they're getting BF4 anyways.
> 
> I am, however, rather disappointed. I wanted the 9000 series to be 20nm so I could do a complete loop from 9700 pro to 9970, I simply can't justify going from 7970 to 9970 this soon when all I do is play LoL and 3DS.
> 
> But some of you guys are crazy. You really think AMD won't be able to squeeze 30% performance out of a chip after they've had GCN released for a year and a half? If 9970 doesn't gain 30% it's going to be one of the longest times in GPU history for the least amount of performance increase. It'd even be closing in on Intel performance level gains.


I see a possible increase of 30%. But I don't forsee the 9970 at *stock* being faster than an overclocked Titan like some have mentioned.

Having said that, I would not be suprised at seeing a 9970 being within ~5% of a Titan.


----------



## zealord

don't worry guys, AMD is going to release a 6GB 9970 with Titan Performance for 550$ and you get 5 free games.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zealord*
> 
> don't worry guys, AMD is going to release a 6GB 9970 with Titan Performance for 550$ and you get 5 free games.


making it potentially a 400 dollar card after game sales shutup and take my money


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I guarantee you that there are more Titan haters out there that are anticipating angry Titan owners than there will be actually angry Titan owners. If the 9970 is indeed faster and cheaper then the Titan, than most of us welcome this from AMD. It is very strange to me that there are many on this site that wish for things like this so you can rub someone's face in it.


I think the biggest reason either side does this and they all have had the chance, is because, in this instance you spoke of, once Titan owners got their Titans they made sure to let any 7970 owner know they were better. Not saying it is one sided. I am positive 7970 was doing this to any of the 6xx series as well. If it weren't for the few negative angry envious posters we could all just discuss the positives and negatives of all our computer products. But alas this is just a dream and unfortunately not likely with a few we have here.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zealord*
> 
> don't worry guys, AMD is going to release a 6GB 9970 with Titan Performance for 550$ and you get 5 free games.


I know you mean well but as Criminal spoke of and I related to in my previous post, this is where all the flaming starts. So get ready cause it is a coming.


----------



## Alatar

I don't think that doubting AMD's ability to pull off 35%+ extra perf on the same process with reasonable TDPs is exactly too pessimistic. I'd call it being realistic.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> Titan owners got their Titans they made sure to let any 7970 owner know they were better.


Not any more than with any other GPU release.... In fact discussing the performance and comparing it to other cards out there is pretty integral when it comes to GPU launches. So I'm not exactly sure why anyone would want to rub anything to anyone's face because of that. It's just silly.

I find all the hate towards Titan owners weird. Most of the people buying a $1000 single GPU will most likely also get a cheaper radeon if they want to.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Not any more than with any other GPU release.... In fact discussing the performance and comparing it to other cards out there is pretty integral when it comes to GPU launches. So I'm not exactly sure why anyone would want to rub anything to anyone's face because of that. It's just silly.
> 
> I find all the hate towards Titan owners weird. Most of the people buying a $1000 single GPU will most likely also get a cheaper radeon if they want to...


I think you missed my point there, I wasn't flaming Titan owners at all just using his example. And I did state both sides do it, I know you have seen it. It is sad really. I go into Intel threads all the time but never fell the need to flame them, I like the info and how the other side is doing. I love information.


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> I think the biggest reason either side does this and they all have had the chance, is because, in this instance you spoke of, once Titan owners got their Titans they made sure to let any 7970 owner know they were better. Not saying it is one sided. I am positive 7970 was doing this to any of the 6xx series as well. If it weren't for the few negative angry envious posters we could all just discuss the positives and negatives of all our computer products. But alas this is just a dream and unfortunately not likely with a few we have here.


I did see some Titan's owners doing that, but I was never one of them. But I got hammered anyway because people start lumping all of us Titan owners together. But I know this happens on both sides, so nothing new.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I did see some Titan's owners doing that, but I was never one of them. But I got hammered anyway because people start lumping all of us Titan owners together. But I know this happens on both sides, so nothing new.


I was considering a Titan but then it didn't drop in Price and I was like nah I'll wait till 20nm and just get myself a nice monitor now.


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> I was considering a Titan but then it didn't drop in Price and I was like nah I'll wait till 20nm and just get myself a nice monitor now.


I mean this respectfully as an Nvidia owner that waited for the 580 to drop price months after 7970 release to SLI my 580. Never saw a price drop until Nvidia's own 680 came out. Don't hold your breath on an Nvidia price drop until thier next serires. They don't fall into AMD's competitive price drops or game bundles promotions to stay competitive. Lesson learned for me.

Even read rumors of incoming price drops during that time frame which I didn't have a comfimable source to verify, other than propaganda in hopes to keep potential buyers waiting.


----------



## SSJVegeta

Interesting to see the difference between the 7950 and 9950.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I guarantee you that there are more Titan haters out there that are anticipating angry Titan owners than there will be actually angry Titan owners. If the 9970 is indeed faster and cheaper then the Titan, than most of us welcome this from AMD. It is very strange to me that there are many on this site that wish for things like this so you can rub someone's face in it.


My question is whether Titan owners would buy a 9970 that outperforms the Titan. Logically I would expect so, unless they're Nvidia-only types, because they bought Titans for top-dog performance in the first place and if a new top dog comes along...

I'm wondering how long I should hang onto my 680s. They've handled my games fine on a single 1080 display, but I'm going to 3x 1080 displays by year's-end.


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> My question is whether Titan owners would buy a 9970 that outperforms the Titan. Logically I would expect so, unless they're Nvidia-only types, because they bought Titans for top-dog performance in the first place and if a new top dog comes along...
> 
> I'm wondering how long I should hang onto my 680s. They've handled my games fine on a single 1080 display, but I'm going to 3x 1080 displays by year's-end.


I would, but the Titan will be my last flagship card for awhile. The last card I paid a premium for was the 8800GTS, even though it was not the flagship. I had a GTX580, but I got off of Amazon when they had them priced wrong at $359. I ended up selling it on Amazon for $260 after 16 months of use. Not bad.









I am really curious of what Maxwell and what AMDs 20nm cards will bring. I think I am going to hold off until then, if not a little longer.


----------



## Blackops_2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I would, but the Titan will be my last flagship card for awhile. The last card I paid a premium for the 8800GTS, even though it was not the flagship. I had a GTX580, but I got off of Amazon when they had them priced wrong at $359. I ended up selling it on Amazon for $260 after 16 months of use. Not bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am really curious of what Maxwell will bring and what AMDs 20nm cards. I think I am going to hold off until then, if not a little longer.


Lets hope Amazon messes up again lol that would be so epic. I had never owned a flagship card until this year with my 7970s. Up until then, FX5500, 7600gt, 8600gts, 8800gt, 4890, 470, 7970s. Thought i was doing good when i got a 7970 i was all like


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> AMD with their crossfire fix will own Nvidia with scaling with multi-GPUs.
> 
> GK110 is very bad at scaling while AMD are very good with this.
> 
> I don't even have Quad SLI Titan or Quad SLI 780 results because users know its not ever worth it to have more than 3 nvidia cards. Three GK110 cards have worst scaling than four tahiti XT


Don't confuse Valley results with everything else. Titan and the 780 scale very well in games AFAIK....


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> I would, but the Titan will be my last flagship card for awhile. The last card I paid a premium for was the 8800GTS, even though it was not the flagship. I had a GTX580, but I got off of Amazon when they had them priced wrong at $359. I ended up selling it on Amazon for $260 after 16 months of use. Not bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am really curious of what Maxwell and what AMDs 20nm cards will bring. I think I am going to hold off until then, if not a little longer.


Well you do have a Titan so you could prob wait a while for the next series without issue.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> I think the biggest reason either side does this and they all have had the chance, is because, in this instance you spoke of, once Titan owners got their Titans they made sure to let any 7970 owner know they were better. Not saying it is one sided. I am positive 7970 was doing this to any of the 6xx series as well. If it weren't for the few negative angry envious posters we could all just discuss the positives and negatives of all our computer products. But alas this is just a dream and unfortunately not likely with a few we have here.


When I got my TItans I spent the next 4 weeks doing exhaustive benchmarking to come up with the 7970 vs Titan comparison in my sig. Didn't do it to show off but to give people a reasonable comparison in case they were considering getting Titans. I've never talked smack about the 7970 (and only talked a little smack to the 780 owners just because they dished it out first)...


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> When I got my TItans I spent the next 4 weeks doing exhaustive benchmarking to come up with the 7970 vs Titan comparison in my sig. Didn't do it to show off but to give people a reasonable comparison in case they were considering getting Titans. I've never talked smack about the 7970 (and only talked a little smack to the 780 owners just because they dished it out first)...


Well I can tell you this: When I ran Firestrike with my one 7770 it looked like a flipbook. LOL so no where near your score. Got a little bit better with the second, could actually see them moving then.


----------



## ahnafakeef

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Yes because Maxwell is ages away + these cards aren't gimped + you can overclock those card freely(90% probable)
> Besides that the release date might be earlier but if we don't get it with those CF drivers then it would probably be pushed to sep/oct


What does Maxwell have anything to do with what I said?
Which card is it that you are calling gimped? If 780s, why does it matter? (I'd genuinely like to know)
Overclocking without any sort of voltage restrictions is a valid point that AMD will always have. But even so, arent 680s and 7970s still on par with each other?
What will probably be pushed to Sep/Oct?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> AMD with their crossfire fix will own Nvidia with scaling with multi-GPUs.
> 
> GK110 is very bad at scaling while AMD are very good with this.
> 
> I don't even have Quad SLI Titan or Quad SLI 780 results because users know its not ever worth it to have more than 3 nvidia cards. Three GK110 cards have worst scaling than four tahiti XT


How niche are the Tri and Quad GPU users compared to single GPU users (to whom scaling doesnt matter in the least)? Please consult your database and tell me why that minor number should be of any major significance.
For single GPU users, if the next AMD flagship performs at least 10% better on average in games than a 780 overclocked to its average overclocks and the price is at least $100 below the 780s, only then it will it have been worth the wait. Is there a better reason for single GPU users to have waited for this card?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> Of course.
> 
> Keep in mind you also forgot the 9970 will likely come with game bundles. Most notably BF4 and possibly Watch Dogs.
> 
> When you consider the fact that no game out today really taxes current GPUs unless you game at insanely high resolutions, waiting 5 months is worth it unless you're impatient and/or just like to bench.
> 
> Oct is also the perfect time for new hardware with BF4 and Rome Total War releasing around that time


I cant really remember, but did the 7970 have a game bundle with it at launch? If memory serves me right, then the answer is no. And if they have a card that can outperform 780s/Titans, what logical reason do they have to give away blockbuster titles like Watch Dogs or BF4? Those cards will be sold out and be out of stock in no time.

I have no intention of bashing AMD, but they only introduced the game bundles to keep people interested in their cards. There driver situation was pretty bad until that one particular driver set, and they tried to tackle it by tempting people with AAA games. (My history is a bit blurry, so I might be a little off on some of it)

But yes, if they do give away those games in a bundle for some reason, it would totally be worth the money.

So you are running a 1080p screen with an overclocked 7950. Please tell me what settings you use in Crysis 3 and Metro Last Light to stay comfortably near to the 60FPS mark. I;m not saying that it doesnt get the job done - of course it does. But a 780 with its higher FPS will most definitely provide a better experience. So I dont know how you define "taxing" but its not like there's no use for the power of a 780 right now.

I've referred to those particular games because those are the ones that I've had most trouble maxing out. With my Titan at 1150MHz, I can run Crysis 3 at 2x MSAA and other settings maxed to stay around the 60FPS mark. To get the same performance in Metro LL, I cant go any higher than 2x SSAA with other settings maxed. I sure hope you dont consider 1080p as "insanely high resolution".

Coming back to my original point, buying a 780 would have given users 9970 performance in May if the rumors are to be considered true. Potential customers who can spare a $100 more on a GPU would be much better off getting a 780 in May than wait till October, wouldn't you say?

@Yvese: Nice avatar! Whats it from?


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Cleaned and moved to rumours.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Considering the massive gains we've seen on GCN just from driver updates I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 9970 released that is faster than Titan on the same process. My guess is that it will be slightly quicker than the 780 and will OC similarly to the 7970 but we'll see soon enough. Don't be expecting some bargain though, AMD has shown that if they take the performance crown they have no problem charging top dollar for it....


----------



## BBEG

Wouldn't hurt my feelings. Id like to think theyll stay $600 or less though, provided they actually do sit at 780 or higher performance. Launching with native 6GB vram at similar performance would make them killer deals if they price war with each other.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ahnafakeef*
> 
> What does Maxwell have anything to do with what I said?
> Which card is it that you are calling gimped? If 780s, why does it matter? (I'd genuinely like to know)
> Overclocking without any sort of voltage restrictions is a valid point that AMD will always have. But even so, arent 680s and 7970s still on par with each other?


At the top end of overclocking on air/water where voltage matters? 7970's crush the 680's.


----------



## racecar56

Radeon HD 9800 Pro.
Oh, wait a minute. P:
At least that won't exist to fool with Google search results.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> Wouldn't hurt my feelings. Id like to think theyll stay $600 or less though, provided they actually do sit at 780 or higher performance. Launching with native 6GB vram at similar performance would make them killer deals if they price war with each other.


I really doubt we will see 6gb stock. 3gb has been shown to be enough for the time being until 1440p and 4k (or multi monitor setups) become more popular.

But 6gb 7970s come in @ $600, though they have been that price since they launched.


----------



## ahnafakeef

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> At the top end of overclocking on air/water where voltage matters? 7970's crush the 680's.


Yeah I had already given up that point, asked just to make sure. Only point where AMD is "ahead".

But what does that tell you about Nvidia? They dared to (and still are) take on AMD's cards with voltage locked cards, and still trades blows unless you consider those watercooled overclocks, which is far from being the majority. The 600 series cards even have better thermal states than the 7000 series, if I'm not wrong. Can you imagine what would happen if Nvidia were to lift the voltage restriction?

Anyways, even if I were to concede this one, lets see AMD provide cards that perform as well as GK110s and still overclock that well, especially if the 9000 series is still on 28nm process. 20nm cards might be different story though.


----------



## Evanlet

9970 is such an ugly number... 7970 is so sexy


----------



## Jerry Sen

9550 was my first video card. May be I'll buy an HD 9550 if there really is one.


----------



## Usario

imho they should just entirely redo the old Radeon 9xxx naming scheme, except with the "HD" part.

Then again, the last time AMD brought back an old name it was a disaster (read: FX)


----------



## nitrubbb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Evanlet*
> 
> 9970 is such an ugly number... 7970 is so sexy


agree


----------



## Hokies83

Voltage unlocked 9970 will walk the Titan when over clocked.

For half the price.

My 7950s been mining 24 hrs a day 7 days a week for months now i have enough to buy almost 3 9970s for free maybe 4 by October









But I think ill take 6 of them







.

Moar KH/S moar money ftw.


----------



## RKTGX95

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Evanlet*
> 
> 9970 is such an ugly number... 7970 is so sexy


this. Though, i'd love to see a 9990 for a fun tongue twister







and i expect someone like ASUS or Sapphire or someone else to release a HD9999 just for the sake of it, and make only 9999 of those. the advertising should be "When almost is more than a Myriad".

come on AMD, we need GPU numerical puns each gen. How else would we advance? (partial sarcasm)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hokies83*
> 
> Voltage unlocked 9970 will walk the Titan when over clocked.
> 
> For half the price.
> 
> My 7950s been mining 24 hrs a day 7 days a week for months now i have enough to buy almost 3 9970s for free maybe 4 by October
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I think ill take 6 of them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Moar KH/S moar money ftw.


six eh?









to me it sounds like you will have 2 spare you might give away


----------



## HanSomPa

AMD late by a few months. Almost the same position they were in for the HD6xxx vs GTX5xx. They lost market share that gen. Not a good place to be.


----------



## zulk

Unless they manage titan level performance for a lower price they can get back some of the market this time around I suppose


----------



## HeadlessKnight

I hope they name the best card in the series Radeon HD 9800 Pro or something. 9800 Pro/ 9700 Pro were Nvidia fanboys worst nightmare.

*just kidding







.*


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ahnafakeef*
> 
> What does Maxwell have anything to do with what I said?
> Which card is it that you are calling gimped? If 780s, why does it matter? (I'd genuinely like to know)


Because people upgrade almost only when there is no better card right around the corner the is plenty of time.
And yes the entire 6xx and 7xx line up is gimped for gaming only and locked by Greenlight.


----------



## BakerMan1971

what I am hoping for is a killer card in the $300-400 segment that makes the new 760 look like an SIS305
I am however really looking forward to what Maxwell brings too, hopefully around April 2014, as I don't really need an upgrade just yet the 570 doing a sterling job atm


----------



## racecar56

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jerry Sen*
> 
> 9550 was my first video card. May be I'll buy an HD 9550 if there really is one.










Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> what I am hoping for is a killer card in the $300-400 segment that makes the new 760 look like an SIS305
> I am however really looking forward to what Maxwell brings too, hopefully around April 2014, as I don't really need an upgrade just yet the 570 doing a sterling job atm


Yes...just...yes.


----------



## Black Octagon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nemessss*
> 
> Official source: http://www.chinadiy.com.cn/html/92/n-10092.html


Hmmm, so. Am I the ONLY person in this thread who sees an article about a new Antec PSU when I click that link?

Or is the link perhaps broken?

(Or am I perhaps the only one around here who checks journalists' "sources"?)


----------



## pratesh

What the next series going to be? 10000 series seems to long. Will they move to 100 series onward?


----------



## racecar56

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Black Octagon*
> 
> Hmmm, so. Am I the ONLY person in this thread who sees an article about a new Antec PSU when I click that link?
> 
> Or is the link perhaps broken?
> 
> (Or am I perhaps the only one around here who checks journalists' "sources"?)


I see it too.


----------



## Djankie

Still keeping strong with the HD 6990.


----------



## NameUnknown

If these perform as expected, I may finally upgrade from my 5970, but we shall see. Need to get to a point where 1 card is solidly above the performance of my 5970 at sub $400 before I do that.


----------



## Hokies83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RKTGX95*
> 
> this. Though, i'd love to see a 9990 for a fun tongue twister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and i expect someone like ASUS or Sapphire or someone else to release a HD9999 just for the sake of it, and make only 9999 of those. the advertising should be "When almost is more than a Myriad".
> 
> come on AMD, we need GPU numerical puns each gen. How else would we advance? (partial sarcasm)
> six eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to me it sounds like you will have 2 spare you might give away


I need 12 in total.

ill use Six till they pay for six more tho lol


----------



## Regent Square

My bet marten 12100 will end up with Radeon as a next card. Man, 9970 is a pwnage to all 20nm and 28nm, just release it, AMD!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Regent Square*
> 
> My bet marten 12100 will end up with Radeon as a next card. Man, 9970 is a pwnage to all 20nm and 28nm, just release it, AMD!


I'm more at home with Nvidia CP than CCC but I will get what performs best/price as always


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RKTGX95*
> 
> this. Though, i'd love to see a 9990 for a fun tongue twister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and i expect someone like ASUS or Sapphire or someone else to release a HD9999 just for the sake of it, and make only 9999 of those. the advertising should be "When almost is more than a Myriad".
> 
> come on AMD, we need GPU numerical puns each gen. How else would we advance? (partial sarcasm)
> six eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to me it sounds like you will have 2 spare you might give away


He's mining cryptocoins with risers, not using them for games. He can fit 6 GPUs...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HanSomPa*
> 
> AMD late by a few months. Almost the same position they were in for the HD6xxx vs GTX5xx. They lost market share that gen. Not a good place to be.


HD 6000 series was underwhelming ( a tweak rather than new process node), kind of like the GTX 770 and GTX 760

Other than memory size and slightly faster memory, Cayman didn't bring anything drastic (two graphics engines didn't seem to do that much for performance). Powertune and GPU Boost are gimmicky.

HD 7000 series is the first real AMD breakthrough in a while as far as TDP goes. GCN is a beast in performance per watt AND COMPUTE even at the lower end.

Kepler is proof when you gimp compute that performance per watt will drastically be better. That's why I have great respect for AMD's GCN.


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> I'm more at home with Nvidia CP than CCC but I will get what performs best/price as always


same. Y now what is the best brand to buy from AMD?


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> He's mining cryptocoins with risers, not using them for games. He can fit 6 GPUs...
> HD 6000 series was underwhelming ( a tweak rather than new process node), kind of like the GTX 770 and GTX 760
> 
> Other than memory size and slightly faster memory, Cayman didn't bring anything drastic.
> 
> HD 7000 series is the first real AMD breakthrough in a while as far as TDP goes. GCN is a beast in performance per watt AND COMPUTE even at the lower end.
> 
> Kepler is proof when you gimp compute that performance per watt will drastically be better. That's why I have great respect for AMD's GCN.


Stop it man, I like Nvidia too much and heard numerous AMD driver problems, I just cant consider AMD at this point...


----------



## raghu78

the most important card would be the HD 9870 (the update to Pitcairn). a 1792 sp card with 32 ROPs and a 256 bit memory bus running at 7 Ghz (224 Gb/s) and core clocked at 1.1 - 1.15Ghz would compete with GTX 770. that card if priced at USD 300 would be the perfect mid range card for this holiday season (especially if with a BF4 bundle). that would prompt Nvidia to push GTX 770 price to USD 300.


----------



## ahnafakeef

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Because people upgrade almost only when there is no better card right around the corner the is plenty of time.
> And yes the entire 6xx and 7xx line up is gimped for gaming only and locked by Greenlight.


By that logic, shouldnt more people have upgraded when the 780/Titan (which handily beat everything else other than each other) came out, since there was absolutely no solid information on any better card coming out any time soon from either company?
Also, I'm not caught up with how much the 20nm technology has progressed, but if AMD releases a card that beats 780/Titan by a noteworthy margin, wouldnt Nvidia come out with their next-gen cards ASAP (within ~6 months like AMD is doing now) and try to recapture the market and the crown?

600 and 700 series cards are meant for gaming, so I dont see what the problem is if they gimped the compute performance (if that's what you are getting at) to boost performance in other areas (TDP, temps, acoustics etc.). Other than the Dirt series, not many (if there is any other that is) games require that much compute performance. And I think Dirt being an AMD title definitely has something to do with it.

But sincerely speaking, if I am missing something that I should know, please be kind enough to enlighten me on the matter.


----------



## zefs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hokies83*
> 
> Voltage unlocked 9970 will walk the Titan when over clocked.
> 
> For half the price.


Yeah? at what db/temps? Maybe it will be used for cooking too, so you get 2 in 1.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ahnafakeef*
> 
> By that logic, shouldnt more people have upgraded when the 780/Titan (which handily beat everything else other than each other) came out, since there was absolutely no solid information on any better card coming out any time soon from either company?
> Also, I'm not caught up with how much the 20nm technology has progressed, but if AMD releases a card that beats 780/Titan by a noteworthy margin, wouldnt Nvidia come out with their next-gen cards ASAP (within ~6 months like AMD is doing now) and try to recapture the market and the crown?
> 
> 600 and 700 series cards are meant for gaming, so I dont see what the problem is if they gimped the compute performance (if that's what you are getting at) to boost performance in other areas (TDP, temps, acoustics etc.). Other than the Dirt series, not many (if there is any other that is) games require that much compute performance. And I think Dirt being an AMD title definitely has something to do with it.
> 
> But sincerely speaking, if I am missing something that I should know, please be kind enough to enlighten me on the matter.


They did but no since it costed a ton.
I want my cards to be good at everything whether it is gaming or compute


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Regent Square*
> 
> Stop it man, I like Nvidia too much and heard numerous AMD driver problems, I just cant consider AMD at this point...


You haven't heard of the crappy overheats Fermi had? Or the drivers that fry Nvidia Kepler GPUs? If you dig deeper into history, Nvidia's mid-range GeForce 8500 GT, 8600 GT, and 8600 GTS (G84/G86) overheat as well and they denied it.

People always paint Nvidia in such a positive light but their hardware isn't that great. They are also really hostile to their partners (see Greenlight program).

Bad AMD drivers are a thing of the past for single GPU setups unless you're running _proprietary drivers_ on Linux which is a special case. If you look at AMD's reference design, they're using _really high quality_ components like Volterra (best VRM circuitry) _used on such cards like the HD7990 / HD 6990 /HD 5870 / HD 6970_ or CHiL PWM controller (from International Rectifier), and Coiltronics inductors (It's the components with the shaded bold *C*), with DirectFETs instead of Low RDS(on) mosfets that Nvidia uses (Nvidia Quadros seem to use YAGEO ferrite chokes). The one major disadvantage of AMD is cooler design on reference cards is absolutely garbage in terms of noise.

Usually AMD card problems are due to lack of VRM cooling on aftermarket cards that use Low RDS(on) mosfets , poor binned chip, or poor cooler contact (see ASUS DirectCUII V1) due to mounting hardware.

For example:
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166840
This Sapphire reference HD 7950 is using DirectFETs, Coiltronics inductors, solid caps.

http://forums.legitreviews.com/about38746.html
Quote:


> There appears to be CPL-made single-phase PWM chokes, and Volterra-made regulators.


^ HD 7970 ES , CPL = Cooper bussman / coiltronics inductors (or "chokes")

see Coiltronics logo http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electronics/products/coiltronics_inductorandtransformermagnetics/high_current_inductors/multi-phase_powercoupledinductorsformulti-phaseapplications/cl0904.html


----------



## maarten12100

AMD's drivers are fine it is just that I don't know how to get around in CCC since the last ATI card for me was hd4870 if the option for manualy setting refresh rate and all then I'll be fine (Or I'll just use CRU ofc







)


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> You haven't heard of the crappy overheats Fermi had? Or the drivers that fry Nvidia Kepler GPUs? If you dig deeper into history, Nvidia's mid-range GeForce 8500 GT, 8600 GT, and 8600 GTS (G84/G86) overheat as well and they denied it.
> 
> People always paint Nvidia in such a positive light but their hardware isn't that great. They are also really hostile to their partners (see Greenlight program).
> 
> *Bad AMD drivers are a thing of the past* for single GPU setups unless you're running _proprietary drivers_ on Linux which is a special case. If you look at AMD's reference design, they're using _really high quality_ components like Volterra (best VRM circuitry) _used on such cards like the HD7990 / HD 6990 /HD 5870 / HD 6970_ or CHiL PWM controller (from International Rectifier), and Coiltronics inductors (It's the components with the shaded bold *C*), with DirectFETs instead of Low RDS(on) mosfets that Nvidia uses. The one major disadvantage of AMD is cooler design on reference cards is absolutely garbage in terms of noise.
> 
> For example:
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166840
> This Sapphire reference HD 7950 is using DirectFETs, Coiltronics inductors, solid caps.
> 
> http://forums.legitreviews.com/about38746.html
> ^ HD 7970 ES , CPL = Cooper bussman / coiltronics inductors (or "chokes")
> 
> see Coiltronics logo http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electronics/products/coiltronics_inductorandtransformermagnetics/high_current_inductors/multi-phase_powercoupledinductorsformulti-phaseapplications/cl0904.html


There are a lot of people complain about their drivers even today...

I just don't wanna have to mess around with it and spend 2 hours to get it up and working just to play games.


----------



## ahnafakeef

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> They did but no since it costed a ton.
> I want my cards to be good at everything whether it is gaming or compute


They can afford to release cards at $650 and get away with it. There was no competition in the market (and still isnt) at the time. Besides, don't the company who release their cards first always take the advantage of pricing their cards as they will? Like with 7970 launching at $550?

Thats your personal preference. I dont think many gamers would actually care about compute performance, unless they were mining bitcoins or something. But sure, AMD has the compute crown when it comes to 600 vs 7000 series cards, there's no denying that.

Also, if AMD's card beats 780/Titan, wouldnt they price it accordingly as well (meaning - at or above $650)? I see no reason not to, especially if they get their drivers fixed by that time as well.
And if it doesnt beat those cards but comes out at $500-$550, well then I repeat my original question of whether the wait would be worth that $100-$150.


----------



## veyron1001

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HanSomPa*
> 
> AMD late by a few months. Almost the same position they were in for the HD6xxx vs GTX5xx. They lost market share that gen. Not a good place to be.


Hardly when the 780 and Titan is priced out of the major consumer market. The 770 and 760 are still slower than the 7970 and 7950. Amd isnt hurting.


----------



## th3illusiveman

Makes no sense why they would make a card that can exceed 780 performance and not Titan performance. If they can make a card faster then a 780, they WILL make it faster than the titan considering the difference is a mere 10%. It would add greatly to their marketing and they get away with a higher price. Sad thing is Nvidia might have ushered us into the age of a $650 9970....


----------



## Serios

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Regent Square*
> 
> There are a lot of people complain about their drivers even today...
> 
> I just don't wanna have to mess around with it and spend 2 hours to get it up and working just to play games.


The funny thing is that lately there are more people who complain about Nvidia drivers.
But lets ignore that otherwise we are not great "Nvidia Enthusiasts".
What a guy said once is totally true: _Nvidia fans complain about AMD drivers more that the AMD video card owners._


----------



## self_slaughter

I went from 6870 crossfire, to a single 7970, to SLI 670s and had far more problem with the NVidia drivers then the last two AMD setups.
Granted SLI pwns crossfire but hopefully new drivers change that.









A trio of 9970's /50s does sound mighty tempting!


----------



## Hokies83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zefs*
> 
> Yeah? at what db/temps? Maybe it will be used for cooking too, so you get 2 in 1.


O db at 36 c?

Even air cooled this will be a much more cool running card then hd 7970.


----------



## Jpmboy

A pair of 9970s will be a worthy upgrade to my 7970s... which have performed flawlessly since a few weeks after market release. The sli titans i have pushing 4K resolution are very good too. I use both brands (simultaneously) and they both definitely have thier own set of unique "issues" when challenged. I do hope AMD gets the message and regains the "fastest" gpu title again... even if only for a launch season. (you know, win on Sunday, sell on Monday) Then team green steps it up a notch, and we users/consumers love it!


----------



## criminal

To everyone responding to Regent Square, he is trolling. He goes back and forth playing devil's advocate just trying to get a rise out of people. Probably best to ignore.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hokies83*
> 
> Voltage unlocked 9970 will walk the Titan when over clocked.
> 
> For half the price.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hokies83*
> 
> Even air cooled this will be a much more cool running card then hd 7970.


Are these random statements based on some actual information or historical precedent or are you just voicing your hopes and wishes?

Because there's a few problems with the statements.

-Titan has a tremendous amount of OCing potential and it scales really well
-historically AMD's OCing potential has gone down as they clock their cards more aggressively with a maturing process
-AMD has never beat Nvidia's big dies on the same process
-Only time AMD has made a 35%+ increase on the same process was when the previous GPU was just a die shrink from the previous process
-AMD doesn't play the value card unless they have to
-in order to have a significant performance increase on the same node the GPU will have to make sacrifices with power consumption and because of this the GPU you describe would not be running cooler than a 7970. It would put out more heat.

and so on...


----------



## AlphaC

^ @Alatar They're not based on anything but hope ...









and
Quote:


> historically AMD's OCing potential has gone down as they clock their cards more aggressively with a maturing process
> ...
> in order to have a significant performance increase on the same node the GPU will have to make sacrifices with power consumption and because of this the GPU you describe would not be running cooler than a 7970. It would put out more heat.


is spot on _but they're supposed to be a smaller node_ of 20nm

Also AMD is supposedly releasing a new cooler design which has a less aggressive fan curve


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> To everyone responding to Regent Square, he is trolling. He goes back and forth playing devil's advocate just trying to get a rise out of people. Probably best to ignore.


And yet again, we see a true troller on this forum trying to spark another argument just to accuse an innocent person.

When Criminal failed to defend himself with a proper back up statements in our long conversation, he started to write spam messages about me being a troller. Just so you know guys, who this person is.


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Are these random statements based on some actual information or historical precedent or are you just voicing your hopes and wishes?
> 
> Because there's a few problems with the statements.
> 
> -*Titan has a tremendous amount of OCing potential* and it scales really well
> -historically AMD's OCing potential has gone down as they clock their cards more aggressively with a maturing process
> -AMD has never beat Nvidia's big dies on the same process
> -Only time AMD has made a 35%+ increase on the same process was when the previous GPU was just a die shrink from the previous process
> -AMD doesn't play the value card unless they have to
> -in order to have a significant performance increase on the same node the GPU will have to make sacrifices with power consumption and because of this the GPU you describe would not be running cooler than a 7970. It would put out more heat.
> 
> and so on...


Only under water...

Surprisingly, you always forget to mention how mean Nvidia can be with their cards(aka drop support for 2 of its flagships







)


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> ^ @Alatar They're not based on anything but hope ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> is spot on _but they're supposed to be a smaller node_ of 20nm
> 
> Also AMD is supposedly releasing a new cooler design which has a less aggressive fan curve


All recent rumors have been pointing at 28nm. Which makes sense considering that the TSMC 20nm process isn't really ready yet...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Regent Square*
> 
> Only under water...
> 
> Surprisingly, you always forget to mention how mean Nvidia can be with their cards(aka drop support for 2 of its flagships
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


And you still do not understand that the performance increase stated in driver release notes is across the entire architecture even though only one card is listed with percentages.


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> All recent rumors have been pointing at 28nm. Which makes sense considering that the TSMC 20nm process isn't really ready yet...
> And you still do not understand that the performance increase stated in driver release notes is across the entire architecture even though only one card is listed with percentages.


Theoretically-yes, practically-no.

In my tests 570 ended up with lesser fps gain than 580 did in bf4 throughout BF3 lifetime.

Maybe, you should sometime make a real bench of a game rather than a Valley which has no indicator of how well a certain game will perform.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> All recent rumors have been pointing at 28nm. Which makes sense considering that the TSMC 20nm process isn't really ready yet...
> And you still do not understand that the performance increase stated in driver release notes is across the entire architecture even though only one card is listed with percentages.


Not sure for GPUs... but 20nm is ready for 2014

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1280701

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20130404143508_TSMC_Is_Ahead_of_Its_Own_20nm_Roadmap_Report.html

http://vr-zone.com/articles/apple-clinches-tsmc-chip-manufacturing-deal-continues-to-distance-itself-from-samsung/42120.html

http://www.hardware.fr/news/13220/tsmc-rait-signe-apple-20nm.html
^ 5 hours ago
Quote:


> The chipmaker also began testing chips using its 20nm system-on-chip technology in November last year, paving the way for volume production next year, Chang said.


http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2013/06/12/2003564555

It's more likely that the next gen AMD stuff will be Q2 2014 , or Q1 2014 than Q3 2013.


----------



## Hokies83

Voltage unlocked card will oc higher then a voltage locked card....

20nm process draws less power less heat.. And amd has said there using a better cooler..

Petter much common sense on the information we have at hand.

But that is only if everything turns out to be true.

Hashing at 1200 kh/s with one card drawing less power pure and utter victory for me.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> HD 6000 series was underwhelming ( a tweak rather than new process node), kind of like the GTX 770 and GTX 760.


I've been impressed what people are getting out of their 770 and 760s in Heaven and Valley benchmarks. At face value it looks like the 700 series overclocks better than the 600 series, despite being 'just a refresh'.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Not sure for GPUs... but 20nm is ready for 2014
> 
> http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1280701
> 
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20130404143508_TSMC_Is_Ahead_of_Its_Own_20nm_Roadmap_Report.html
> 
> http://vr-zone.com/articles/apple-clinches-tsmc-chip-manufacturing-deal-continues-to-distance-itself-from-samsung/42120.html
> 
> http://www.hardware.fr/news/13220/tsmc-rait-signe-apple-20nm.html
> ^ 5 hours ago


For 2014 and for ARM. Right now only very small chips have taped out. We haven't heard anything about any complex GPUs taping out so for those 20nm is early 2014 at the very earliest.

The rumors saying VI was going to be on 20nm are back from last October or something along those lines. Almost a year old. Most sources have said 28nm, which again makes sense unless AMD wants to only release stuff well into 2014.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hokies83*
> 
> Voltage unlocked card will oc higher then a voltage locked card....
> 
> 20nm process draws less power less heat.. And amd has said there using a better cooler..
> 
> Petter much common sense on the information we have at hand.


Titan and 780 have about as much OCing headroom as a 7970GE even though they don't have that much voltage control (they're not locked entirely). And actually it can be argued that with a modded BIOS they have more OCing headroom.

And if there are cards releasing this year they'll be on 28nm. And the cards rumored here and for the past couple of months are 28nm.

So no it's not common sense at all.


----------



## Hokies83

If the rumors are true it is common sense.

All my 7950s over clock 400mhz over stock show me how many titans and 780s do that lol.

A 7970 ghz is an factory over clocked care and a bad example.

The al mighty over priced Titan only does a whopping 350 kh/s my 120$ 7850/ do that lol.

I do not bench i do not card what bench marks say...

I mine And make around 600$ a month doing so.

I see anything nvidia as a horrid investment and a dead weight Gpu... And a few fps in a game. Will never make up for free hard ware no matter what anyone says.

From my prospective i see zero reasons to buy nvidia.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> I've been impressed what people are getting out of their 770 and 760s in Heaven and Valley benchmarks. At face value it looks like the 700 series overclocks better than the 600 series, despite being 'just a refresh'.


Better Pcb design and more/better vrm's


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Better Pcb design and more/better vrm's


As well as increased TDP, voltage, and power target. A lot of the overclocking gap between the 600 and 700 cards seems artificially engineered.


----------



## Alatar

7950 =/= flagship model.

So sure a 9950 might be able to do that. But it's not as fast either. And again, we are not going to be seeing 20nm cards anytime soon. If these are releasing this year they're going to be on 28nm.

And if AMD manages to produce a card that will improve performance by over 35% (from their previous flagship model 7970GE), gains around 40% from overclocking and stays within the same power envelope, they've just made the biggest leap in GPU architecture improvements that we've seen in modern times.

Which would be somewhat odd considering that they're not actually doing an architecture change but using the GCN found in the 7790. A card that has almost the exact per core performance of current GCN parts.


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> 7950 =/= flagship model.
> 
> So sure a 9950 might be able to do that. But it's not as fast either. And again, we are not going to be seeing 20nm cards anytime soon. If these are releasing this year they're going to be on 28nm.
> 
> And if AMD manages to produce a card that will improve performance by over 35% (from their previous flagship model 7970GE), gains around 40% from overclocking and stays within the same power envelope, they've just made the biggest leap in GPU architecture improvements that we've seen in modern times.
> 
> Which would be somewhat odd considering that they're not actually doing an architecture change but using the GCN found in the 7790. A card that has almost the exact per core performance of current GCN parts.


You are saying AMD cards will have 5% overclock potential?! Wow, Amd is not on the low ladder of an overclock headroom. If that would been the case, NVidia cards can have no more than 9% of overclock. interesting, how people treat an upcoming product without knowing it in advance...


----------



## Alatar

Please do point out where I said any of that...


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please do point out where I said any of that...


You said:" gains around 40% from overclocking". Careful with wording.


----------



## Alatar

I don't see how that could in any way mean going from 35% to 40% because of overclocking. It very clearly means getting a 40% increase from overclocking. Which should also be clear in the context of the post (beating a Titan both OC'd and stock).


----------



## Regent Square

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> I don't see how that could in any way mean going from 35% to 40% because of overclocking. It very clearly means getting a 40% increase from overclocking. Which should also be clear in the context of the post (beating a Titan both OC'd and stock).


Under what circumstances should the card be to reach this overclock?! I mean, we are talking about the max Oc performance a user might archive with a reference/slightly modified colling system card, not this heavy water with an ideal amb. temps situation.


----------



## icehotshot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *th3illusiveman*
> 
> Sad thing is Nvidia might have ushered us into the age of a $650 9970....


Or AMD did just because of zero competition. Just depends on how you look at it.

If the 9970 was 30% more powerful than a gtx 780 do you really think AMD would not jack the price up? Because they would. Both companies try to make as much money as possible, if you think otherwise you're blinded by being loyal to either company.


----------



## AlphaC

iceshot, Nvidia has more market share right now that's the only reason why AMD prices so aggressively.

Also, AMD tends to slash prices to stay competitive while Nvidia just phases out things (see GTX 660 Ti)

I wouldn't buy AMD on launch because prices tank quickly.

The MSRP went down about 25% by end of last summer ; $450 MSRP HD7950s are commonly $280 now (40% off). The HD7870 has suffered even more, dropping from $350 to $200 or so (~45% off).


----------



## sdlvx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *icehotshot*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *th3illusiveman*
> 
> Sad thing is Nvidia might have ushered us into the age of a $650 9970....
> 
> 
> 
> Or AMD did just because of zero competition. Just depends on how you look at it.
> 
> If the 9970 was 30% more powerful than a gtx 780 do you really think AMD would not jack the price up? Because they would. Both companies try to make as much money as possible, if you think otherwise you're blinded by being loyal to either company.
Click to expand...

Indeed, AMD is more concerned about the long run. They need more PC gamers using AMD and they need more marketshare if they want to get more game developers optimizing better for them. Even if AMD throws game developers money for Gaming Evolved, the game devs will still optimize for Nvidia simply because if they didn't they'd cut out the majority of users.

I wouldn't expect AMD to get crazy on GPU price to performance until they (or don't) get a good size marketshare lead on Nvidia. I could be wrong but it makes sense for AMD to fight for share so developers are more friendly towards GCN.

Not to mention the more people who have GCN, the more people there are going to be to use HSA features on their GCN cards.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> As well as increased TDP, voltage, and power target. A lot of the overclocking gap between the 600 and 700 cards seems artificially engineered.


I'd be interested to see proof of this. As it stands I'm seeing 760s and 770s scoring higher than most non-Lightning / Classified / Windforce 680s in basically all common benchmarks. If they're doing so at higher heat and power draw that would be good to know.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> 7950 =/= flagship model.
> 
> So sure a 9950 might be able to do that. But it's not as fast either. And again, we are not going to be seeing 20nm cards anytime soon. If these are releasing this year they're going to be on 28nm.
> 
> And if AMD manages to produce a card that will improve performance by over 35% (from their previous flagship model 7970GE), gains around 40% from overclocking and stays within the same power envelope, they've just made the biggest leap in GPU architecture improvements that we've seen in modern times.
> 
> Which would be somewhat odd considering that they're not actually doing an architecture change but using the GCN found in the 7790. A card that has almost the exact per core performance of current GCN parts.


You dont know that they will use the 7790 GCN1.1 . There is zero evidence for that. 7790 has zero difference from GCN.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> I'd be interested to see proof of this. As it stands I'm seeing 760s and 770s scoring higher than most non-Lightning / Classified / Windforce 680s in basically all common benchmarks. If they're doing so at higher heat and power draw that would be good to know.


It's not so much proof as just the basic specs of the cards.

GTX 680: 195W TDP, 1.175V max voltage

GTX 770: 230W TDP, 1.212V max voltage


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> GTX 680: 195W TDP, 1.175V max voltage
> 
> GTX 770: 230W TDP, 1.212V max voltage


that 1175mV maybe for you but all desktop mid/high kepler cards can run 1212.5mV with a adjusted bios.


----------



## BBEG

Nobody's bothered making a bios for the original EVGA 680s or else I'd test that at higher voltages to see what I can eek out... no love for first gens.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> 7950 =/= flagship model.
> 
> So sure a 9950 might be able to do that. But it's not as fast either. And again, we are not going to be seeing 20nm cards anytime soon. If these are releasing this year they're going to be on 28nm.
> 
> And if AMD manages to produce a card that will improve performance by over 35% (from their previous flagship model 7970GE), gains around 40% from overclocking and stays within the same power envelope, they've just made the biggest leap in GPU architecture improvements that we've seen in modern times.
> 
> Which would be somewhat odd considering that they're not actually doing an architecture change but using the GCN found in the 7790. A card that has almost the exact per core performance of current GCN parts.


The 7790 is "gcn 1.1" in that it only involves a more aggressive power pwm and a more power/clock levels then the current GHz cards.

What amd deploys with "ghz":









What the 7790 has:










There is no difference or additional tweaks beyond this really.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> 7950 =/= flagship model.
> 
> So sure a 9950 might be able to do that. But it's not as fast either. And again, we are not going to be seeing 20nm cards anytime soon. If these are releasing this year they're going to be on 28nm.
> 
> And if AMD manages to produce a card that will improve performance by over 35% (from their previous flagship model 7970GE), gains around 40% from overclocking and stays within the same power envelope, they've just made the biggest leap in GPU architecture improvements that we've seen in modern times.
> 
> Which would be somewhat odd considering that they're not actually doing an architecture change but using the GCN found in the 7790. A card that has almost the exact per core performance of current GCN parts.


If they produce a really big chip (there are rumours of 2560 SP or something along these lines) I don't see why not.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> If they produce a really big chip (there are rumours of 2560 SP or something along these lines) I don't see why not.


And gimp compute


----------



## Vesku

I don't think AMD is going to suddenly gimp compute power, they are completely committed to their CPU+GPU combined compute vision.


----------



## chrisguitar

Shouldn't be any surprise they were bringing out another gen like this again. I hope the prices drop in Australia though









I would love some GAMING posters included again my room is full of bike posters







love posters


----------



## Taint3dBulge

Im ready (i mean really ready) to see some leaked benches. Kinda like the titan did a month before it came out.. Something to make us all go "no effn way" I hope to say that for the better lol... Im just tired of hearing rumors that are months and months out with nothing to really see, same damn thing witht he 5ghz amd cpu.. lets go AMD show us something to to knock our socks off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## kpo6969

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raghu78*
> 
> the most important card would be the HD 9870 (the update to Pitcairn). a 1792 sp card with 32 ROPs and a 256 bit memory bus running at 7 Ghz (224 Gb/s) and core clocked at 1.1 - 1.15Ghz would compete with GTX 770. that card if priced at USD 300 would be the perfect mid range card for this holiday season (especially if with a BF4 bundle). that would prompt Nvidia to push GTX 770 price to USD 300.


+1
The segment of the market where the profit is made.


----------



## thematrix606

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Not sure for GPUs... but 20nm is ready for 2014
> 
> It's more likely that the next gen AMD stuff will be Q2 2014 , or Q1 2014 than Q3 2013.












So you're a market analyst? Work for AMD or nVidia? Inside information?

Please do tell use why they would rather wait longer than to bring out something asap to compete with nVidia? Seeing as almost 2 years will have passed since they've released their last gen.


----------



## cdoublejj

October is laughable the HD8000 isn't even out yet.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cdoublejj*
> 
> October is laughable the HD8000 isn't even out yet.


I guess you only read the title? HD 8xxx cards are OEM only if this is true.


----------



## Code-Red

I want a HD 9800 Pro.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vesku*
> 
> I don't think AMD is going to suddenly gimp compute power, they are completely committed to their CPU+GPU combined compute vision.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> And gimp compute


it is needed to win in gaming performance this and a big die strategy for their firepro and normal line up.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cdoublejj*
> 
> October is laughable the HD8000 isn't even out yet.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> *
> I guess you only read the title? HD 8xxx cards are OEM only if this is true.
> *


----------



## Sir Amik Vase

So if this does end up being 28nm what sorta performance increases are we looking at, 20%, 30%? (For the 9970)


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sir Amik Vase*
> 
> So if this does end up being 28nm what sorta performance increases are we looking at, 20%, 30%? (For the 9970)


If the ROP's were all that was limiting performance an increase up to 50% but I figure it will be in the 30% range


----------



## Arthedes

What price and performance increase will we see in the 9950 in relation to the 7950? I'm planning to buy a 7950 rig in the near future


----------



## svenge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arthedes*
> 
> What price and performance increase will we see in the 9950 in relation to the 7950? I'm planning to buy a 7950 rig in the near future


One would think that the 9950's price would be closer to the 7950's original MSRP of $450 than today's bargain-basement discounts ($250+ depending on model and retailer). The performance would be pure speculation at this point.


----------



## chrisguitar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> If the ROP's were all that was limiting performance an increase up to 50% but I figure it will be in the 30% range


let me hear you say *** rop *** rop *** ***


----------



## specopsFI

I want to throw my wild guesses out there too!









9970 will paper launch early October with availability around BF4 release. There's no way it will be 20nm with that schedule, so 28nm it is. Since GK110 is as big a chip as the process allows with any decent yields, I'm thinking 9970 will end up close to that. I don't think they can really fit 2560 shaders into it, so the specs that Guru3D speculated on might be it. So 2304 shaders, 48 ROPs and a 384-bit bus. I'm thinking they might go for 6GB reference to differentiate it from GTX 780. That will also be the real target for them performance-wise: Titan will most likely be out of reach since they can't make the chip bigger and the TDP limits will keep them from clocking it high enough because of the performance per watt advantage that Kepler has for the high-end stuff. So I'm thinking 20-25% more performance than 7970GE, probably around 10% more power consumption and slightly less OC headroom. That will make it fast enough for them to match GTX 780's pricing with the kicker being double the VRAM and the gaming bundle with BF4 in there.

We'll see...


----------



## Mr357

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *specopsFI*
> 
> I want to throw my wild guesses out there too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9970 will paper launch early October with availability around BF4 release. There's no way it will be 20nm with that schedule, so 28nm it is. Since GK110 is as big a chip as the process allows with any decent yields, I'm thinking 9970 will end up close to that. I don't they can really fit 2560 shaders into it, so the specs that Guru3D speculated on might be it. So 2304 shaders, 48 ROPs and a 384-bit bus. I'm thinking they might go for 6GB reference to differentiate it from GTX 780. That will also be the real target for them performance-wise: Titan will most likely be out of reach since they can't make the chip bigger and the TDP limits will keep them from clocking it high enough because of the performance per watt advantage that Kepler has for the high-end stuff. So I'm thinking 20-25% more performance than 7970GE, probably around 10% more power consumption and slightly less OC headroom. That will make it fast enough for them to match GTX 780's pricing with the kicker being double the VRAM and the gaming bundle with BF4 in there.
> 
> We'll see...


I don't think they'll throw a single GPU 6GB card out there simply because they wouldn't be able to price it below the 780 (not by much at least), and because nobody is asking for that. Sapphire will likely make a 6GB Toxic edition again anyways, which will probably cost at least $100 more than a reference 9970. I agree with you on the shaders; 2560 is 25% more than the 7970, which is insane when you take into account heat and power consumption (the dies are supposed to be larger, so that kind of heat might be manageable) . Those extra ROP's will be the main feature, unless AMD can squeeze even more OC headroom out of the 28nm design.


----------



## jomama22

What I find funny is the idea that the 2304 sp part could just be the 9950 while Hawaii, which doesn't have many actual spec leaks, could be a big die for both the GPU market and firepro series.


----------



## Amar

they would probably go for something cooler for the next series. maybe UHD 1000 OR 4K1000, what say







 ? And Market their products as the real Next-Gen, with HSA and GCN improving. maybe the next series will mark a new beginning. little fanboyism


----------



## Amar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> in my view I hope the top end card absolutely floors the Titan in every way possible, we need as much competition in the market as possible, and with only 2 main players, it needs to be contentious!


for that we will get HD 9990 , HD 9970 is for GTX 780


----------



## geoxile

In those rumored specs how come the front ends for the GPUs are so supped up compared to current GPUs?


----------



## specopsFI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mr357*
> 
> I don't think they'll throw a single GPU 6GB card out there simply because they wouldn't be able to price it below the 780 (not by much at least), and because nobody is asking for that. Sapphire will likely make a 6GB Toxic edition again anyways, which will probably cost at least $100 more than a reference 9970. I agree with you on the shaders; 2560 is 25% more than the 7970, which is insane when you take into account heat and power consumption (the dies are supposed to be larger, so that kind of heat might be manageable) . Those extra ROP's will be the main feature, unless AMD can squeeze even more OC headroom out of the 28nm design.


Memory is in real life terms dirt cheap. Just because AIB partners ask crazy money for the extra memory versions doesn't mean it actually costs that much more. It is an easy and relatively cheap way to distinguish a video card, and AMD has had a bit of a habit of moving ahead of the VRAM curve. Still, I know 6GB is a lot but they might do it anyways. If only 3GB though, then maybe MSRP at $599.


----------



## Amar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *geoxile*
> 
> In those rumored specs how come the front ends for the GPUs are so supped up compared to current GPUs?


Partly because of Nvidia with all their rebranding/pricing stuff and because HD 7000 seires is really old(in gpu terms) So anything new is definitely going to be better. GPU performance increases by 10-20% every year, using simple maths, for 1.7 years, performance should go up by 30-35% over previous gen. And even more when you take in account the price increase, which is most likely to happen.


----------



## revro

amd would be winner even if they used just 4.5gb instead of 6gb. but somehow i dont think they can make a card with manageble tdp on 28nm. i mean when heavilly oced it would be 375w consumption
how much is a consumption of heavilly oced titan/780?

best
revro


----------



## amoverclock29

So you guys think GPu's would be using PCIe 4.0 anytime soon?
And even if they they do how much difference would it really make from pcie 2.0?


----------



## ladcrooks

All crystal ball stuff - yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> amd would be winner even if they used just 4.5gb instead of 6gb. but somehow i dont think they can make a card with manageble tdp on 28nm. i mean when heavilly oced it would be 375w consumption
> how much is a consumption of heavilly oced titan/780?
> 
> best
> revro


About the same. The 700 series in general pulls more from the wall than my 680s, but I'm voltage locked and I don't know if they are.


----------



## Kaltenbrunner

almost 2 years since AMD did anything new, I hope it's worth the wait, and I hope CF works better this round (or I hope the devs work harder)


----------



## Phelan

I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere in 24 pages, but the real reason for the naming change-

"IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!"


----------



## Phelan

If they really wanted the top card to compete on all fronts they could just cut its GPGPU compute capability, which would put power consumption way closer to Nvidia's. A lot of people would be pissed, but it's not like NV didn't do it too...


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phelan*
> 
> If they really wanted the top card to compete on all fronts they could just cut its GPGPU compute capability, which would put power consumption way closer to Nvidia's. A lot of people would be pissed, but it's not like NV didn't do it too...


But I think AMD's future plans require it to exist, so I am not sure gimping it would be a good idea.


----------



## CyberWolf575

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *criminal*
> 
> Not sure that is possible if these are 28nm. Plus, if they somehow beat the Titan with these cards, I don't see them being $550.


Yea I would have to agree with you, I don't see it happening, as much as I love AMD, I don't think that it will trump the Titan which is an incredible card.

But If they do release something that trumps it as a single GPU, than I have a feeling it will be around $900 price range, if not more.


----------



## Phelan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CyberWolf575*
> 
> Yea I would have to agree with you, I don't see it happening, as much as I love AMD, I don't think that it will trump the Titan which is an incredible card.
> 
> But If they do release something that trumps it as a single GPU, than I have a feeling it will be around $900 price range, if not more.


I agree. Though they could always do as NV did and realease and release the 9970 as the 780 competitor and a halo GPU called the 9999 or something the like.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> But I think AMD's future plans require it to exist, so I am not sure gimping it would be a good idea.


this is true too..


----------



## Darklyric

I knew Herman Cain was secretly working for amd! He probably said 9 some many times they renamed the series to shut him up


----------



## sdlvx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Phelan*
> 
> If they really wanted the top card to compete on all fronts they could just cut its GPGPU compute capability, which would put power consumption way closer to Nvidia's. A lot of people would be pissed, but it's not like NV didn't do it too...
> 
> 
> 
> But I think AMD's future plans require it to exist, so I am not sure gimping it would be a good idea.
Click to expand...

Not only this but AMD can make a card that's really good at compute and it's the same size as Nvidia's card with compute removed, while being faster (referring to Tahiti > GK104). AMD simply doesn't have to gut GPGPU out of their architecture to get a chip from 500mm^2+ to 300mm^2. It's a massive advantage that people don't seem to realize AMD has.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sdlvx*
> 
> Not only this but AMD can make a card that's really good at compute and it's the same size as Nvidia's card with compute removed, while being faster (referring to Tahiti > GK104). AMD simply doesn't have to gut GPGPU out of their architecture to get a chip from 500mm^2+ to 300mm^2. It's a massive advantage that people don't seem to realize AMD has.


I was unaware that 365mm^2 (tahiti) = 294mm^2 (GK104) in die size and that the only difference between GK110 and GK104 is the removal of some compute features...


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

70mm^2 is not a very significant difference in size. I'm sure he meant that they are comparable in size...


----------



## RX7-2nr

I think if it were launching that soon we would have heard more about it.


----------



## DADDYDC650

Should we expect AMD's next single GPU flagship to perform better in BF4 vs the GTX 780 since the 780 has neutered computing performance?


----------



## Shogon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DADDYDC650*
> 
> Should we expect AMD's next single GPU flagship to perform better in BF4 vs the GTX 780 since the 780 has neutered computing performance?


Games don't use computing performance. Least a game like BF4 surely won't. Otherwise a 680 wouldn't perform as well if it does if that were true.


----------



## DADDYDC650

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shogon*
> 
> Games don't use computing performance. Least a game like BF4 surely won't. Otherwise a 680 wouldn't perform as well if it does if that were true.


Directcompute is being used in BF4 though isn't it?


----------



## Phelan

It's quite possible. EA did say that their upcoming titles, including BF4, will be optimized for AMD GPUs.


----------



## Dudewitbow

I dont think it will necessarily be better for AMD perse, but the gap between the amd gpu to the nvidia gpu counterpart will be significantly smaller then it was when BF3 started out. (when recommendations were the gtx 560 on nvidia and the 6950 on amd, despite that generally the 6950 is a better gpu, where the 560 is more or less like the 6870.) Being optimized for AMD will lessen the gap between similar gpu differences, as well as optimize the game for APU's for barebone budget gaming.


----------



## maarten12100

Games should use it more to create true random events and I think BF4 with their collapsing buildings could certainly put it to good use.


----------



## fateswarm

I heard a very aggressive criticism of AMD by a business analyst and I think it applies here: "AMD started as a knock-off producer and it has remained that".

Intel is about 2 to 4 years ahead and I'm disappointed that even NVIDIA is let to roam free (and the only thing AMD has is this rumor). It's now the 2nd month that is absolutely ludicrous to not get an NVIDIA card when considering a new system. The 770 and 760 cards are no-brainers for anyone not biased with any company.

I'm honestly and genuinely saddened to believe that because Intel and NVIDIA should not be allowed to roam free but AMD is absolute trash at the moment.

It's especially bad when it gets to NVIDIA since they are both in the bad position of begging TSMC for a shrinked process so it has absolutely no excuse to be beaten by NVIDIA.


----------



## Phelan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I heard a very aggressive criticism of AMD by a business analyst and I think it applies here: "AMD started as a knock-off producer and it has remained that".
> 
> Intel is about 2 to 4 years ahead and I'm disappointed that even NVIDIA is let to roam free (and the only thing AMD has is this rumor). It's now the 2nd month that is absolutely ludicrous to not get an NVIDIA card when considering a new system. The 770 and 760 cards are no-brainers for anyone not biased with any company.
> 
> I'm honestly and genuinely saddened to believe that because Intel and NVIDIA should not be allowed to roam free but AMD is absolute trash at the moment.
> 
> It's especially bad when it gets to NVIDIA since they are both in the bad position of begging TSMC for a shrinked process so it has absolutely no excuse to be beaten by NVIDIA.


770 and 760 aren't end-all solutions when compared to a 7950 or 7970. Considering that the AMD variants are cheaper and bundled when bought new, and the fact that they trade blows in performance, especially when OC'ed, AMD is still competitive in the <$500 range, where most enthusiasts are at with a GPU purchase anyway.


----------



## Hokies83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I heard a very aggressive criticism of AMD by a business analyst and I think it applies here: "AMD started as a knock-off producer and it has remained that".
> 
> Intel is about 2 to 4 years ahead and I'm disappointed that even NVIDIA is let to roam free (and the only thing AMD has is this rumor). It's now the 2nd month that is absolutely ludicrous to not get an NVIDIA card when considering a new system. The 770 and 760 cards are no-brainers for anyone not biased with any company.
> 
> I'm honestly and genuinely saddened to believe that because Intel and NVIDIA should not be allowed to roam free but AMD is absolute trash at the moment.
> 
> It's especially bad when it gets to NVIDIA since they are both in the bad position of begging TSMC for a shrinked process so it has absolutely no excuse to be beaten by NVIDIA.


And I feel the exact opposite i see no reason to buy nvidia... Because amd Gpus pay for themselves making them free... And after that profitable to buy more hardware.

Nvidia is just a bad investment from the start soon as you buy it you lose money and keep doing so till you sell it.


----------



## specopsFI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DADDYDC650*
> 
> Should we expect AMD's next single GPU flagship to perform better in BF4 vs the GTX 780 since the 780 has neutered computing performance?


The only neutered thing about the 780 is double-precision computing which has absolutely no relevance for gaming. So no, we should not unless we also expect it to have more shader power (which, personally, I don't).


----------



## Popple

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phelan*
> 
> 770 and 760 aren't end-all solutions when compared to a 7950 or 7970. Considering that the AMD variants are cheaper and bundled when bought new, and the fact that they trade blows in performance, especially when OC'ed, AMD is still competitive in the <$500 range, where most enthusiasts are at with a GPU purchase anyway.


Many of the NeverSettled cupons have dried up at major various retailers/brands. Most of the manufacturers still dedicated it are the AMD exclusive ones like Sapphire and Powercolor.

Quote:


> And I feel the exact opposite i see no reason to buy nvidia... Because amd Gpus pay for themselves making them free... And after that profitable to buy more hardware.


That sounds like quite a fine tuned argument...


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Popple*
> 
> That sounds like quite a fine tuned argument...


He means as long as mining non bitcoin alternatives stays profit(able)\cost(power consumption * rate)


----------



## specopsFI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> He means as long as mining non bitcoin alternatives stays profit(able)\cost(power consumption * rate)


I suppose so but somehow he always fails to mention that. It's always just "free hardware, yay!"


----------



## reedy777

that's absolute nonsense my matrix platinum 7970 very nearly always beats a GTX 780 when they are both oc'd at £200 less. I bought a gtx680 on launch which has never been the faster card despite nvidia's claims plus AMD has the next generation on lockdown with all the new consoles using their GPU's (mainstream games for the next 6-8 years will be built around that platform) they've done the ground work and NVidia is living off customers delusions of yesteryear that they are the premium GPU manufacture. I remember giving my m8s 590 a beat down with two 6950s(oc'd obviously) at £200 less last round too. all the SLI is more stable argument is a bunch of waffle too. I had better stability CF matrix p with a reference 7970. NVidia always seems to deliver me with nothing but disappointment. good PR is all they have going for them IMHO. I mean 2gb of vram (680) cant even max 1080p that's just fail..... rant over


----------



## reedy777

I have a suggestion for the man who wrote that article go buy a mac they also make overpriced under performing crap albeit in a neat pretentious package that's more restrictive than a dictatorship.


----------



## reedy777

much like NVidia going


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phelan*
> 
> 770 and 760 aren't end-all solutions when compared to a 7950 or 7970.


I wonder why you haven't looked at benchmarks lately. 770 is THE unquestionable winner at its price range.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I wonder why you haven't looked at benchmarks lately. 770 is THE unquestionable winner at its price range.


Yeah, pointless stock vs. stock benchmarks.

A hefty factory overclock on a 770 doesn't make it any better than an overclocked 7970.


----------



## Hokies83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Yeah, pointless stock vs. stock benchmarks.
> 
> A hefty factory overclock on a 770 doesn't make it any better than an overclocked 7970.


This.

Any only afew fps better then a 7950.. which is much cheaper...

Not to mention a 770 is a dead weight gpu that will never return it's investment.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> overclocked.


I hear this AMD mantra a lot, yet benchmarks consistently show 770 beats overclocked AMDs.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I hear this AMD mantra a lot, yet benchmarks consistently show 770 beats overclocked AMDs.


Proof? A 770 = a 680 with higher clocks. Max oc vs max oc, the 7970 wins every time and can be found for cheaper.

The 770 is NOT the best buy in its range. A 7970 @ $300 new with 3gb is a steal and put the 770 to shame.

Here you go, http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=24502493
takes a 770 @ 1200-1300 core to match/slightly slower then a 1160 core 7970.

Don't know what you are smoking with all this '770 is the best buy" when it clearly isn't when you can find 7970s for 25% less.


----------



## fateswarm

Quite rude to personally attack people when your "obvious solution" is to massively overclock a card.

What if they take a card that happens to not overclock that well. What if it burns in 6months of overclocking? Do you take that responsibility?

Are AMD so stupid as to not overclock them themselves if they are so durable? This is an obvious case of either an unstable situation or cards just dying sooner.


----------



## fateswarm

-double-


----------



## Hokies83

I don't even understand why you are even posting 680 cough i mean 770 nonsense in this thread.

I would not buy a 770 if it was 100$ brand new... Cause id still be losing half of that when it came time to resale.

And bragging about a 680 i mean 770 trading blows with a 20 month old Gpu is not something I'd like to be boasting about....

What do you think these HD 9xxx are going to do to nvidia s offerings?

Not only beat them at gaming benching but cost less and return there investments via script mining....


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hokies83*
> 
> I would not buy a 770 if it was 100$


I rest my case after this ludicrous statement. You are obviously not interested in rational discussion but the idle promotion of a Company.

Disclaimer: The only card I own is an AMD and I'm considering my future options. You have not changed my mind in the least. Good day.


----------



## Hokies83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I rest my case after this ludicrous statement. You are obviously not interested in rational discussion but the idle promotion of a Company.
> 
> Disclaimer: The only card I own is an AMD and I'm considering my future options. You have not changed my mind in the least. Good day.


Because you do not understand the facts.

My HD 7xxx cards have made me over 9000 usd in 24 months.

Im looking to double that very soon.









Info is in my sig.

I've only owned nvidia products for the better part of 15 years till i started mining...

And seen why would anyone buy a nvidia card at this point these amd cards make money....

I've also been called one of the biggest amd bashers on ocn ... I have the infraction history to prove it if u want a screen shot ?

I support no company's but if a company product pays me and the others do not im not stupid enough to pass that up.


----------



## ivanlabrie

Yeah, I don't get it...maybe rich spoiled kids but if you care about the money and live on your own, having AMD cards is ideal.

I can't wait to see how this pans out.


----------



## fateswarm

Oh, buy AMD because bitcoin. This becomes funnier by the minute.


----------



## Hokies83

Nobody mines bit coin with Gpus anymore.

Buy amd because they return the money you invest into them and pay for future upgrades to.

The new nvidia cards may give you afew more fps in afew token games but never return your investment... Any rational person can see this.


----------



## fateswarm

Don't twist it now. I saw your thread. You don't even play games. You just mine coins.

I like how you think litecoins will reach more than $35.

Do you even know how those things work?


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Quite rude to personally attack people when your "obvious solution" is to massively overclock a card.
> 
> What if they take a card that happens to not overclock that well. What if it burns in 6months of overclocking? Do you take that responsibility?
> 
> Are AMD so stupid as to not overclock them themselves if they are so durable? This is an obvious case of either an unstable situation or cards just dying sooner.


Even a 7970 that "doesn't overclock that well" will still likely be faster than a 770. Did you see the benches posted above? A 1160MHz 7970 (which isn't a big overclock at all) beats a 770 overclocked to 1300MHz.

The cards won't "burn up" in 6 months either, especially for a user like you who thinks the typical overclocks on a 7970 are "massive".

Why didn't AMD clock their cards more aggressively at stock? Because they didn't need to. The 7970 released before the 680, and was the fastest card on the market. Then when the 680 came out, AMD released the GHz edition to beat the 680. The 770 is a relatively new card, and the fact that it's still slower than 7970's is just kind of sad.


----------



## Hokies83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Don't twist it now. I saw your thread. You don't even play games. You just mine coins.
> 
> I like how you think litecoins will reach more than $35.
> 
> Do you even know how those things work?


I know exactly how things work.

And I will start playing games once again soon as mtgox picks up LTC and i dump them for massive profits









You can check my steam account if you like it is from 2007 and very vast


----------



## fateswarm

Snuckie7, it's irrelevant. He mines coins. Of course he won't go for NVIDIA.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Snuckie7, it's irrelevant. He mines coins. Of course he won't go for NVIDIA.


Guess what? The 7970 is better at gaming too.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

What in the world is going on in here? The 770 is a fine card but it isn't a better buy than a 7970 which is faster when OC'd and cheaper. Well, unless you need it for specific reasons like PhysX or 3D (advantages that only Nvidia offers). And saying that buying a card for mining is silly is like saying that buying for folding or rendering or any other reason than gaming is silly. Video cards have plenty of other uses than gaming (and mining for coins is at least profitable though I never personally got into it)....


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Guess what? The 7970 is better at gaming too.


Yeah, we "established" that. When it's massively overclocked with questionable results and consequences.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

What's questionable about overclocking? Did you miss the name of the forum you are on?







I would hope that anybody that bothers to have an account here would be overclocking their GPU's (at least for establishing performance). It is simply silly to say one card is better than another based only on stock performance as that has no bearing whatsoever on what the cards are truly capable of....


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Yeah, we "established" that. When it's massively overclocked with questionable results and consequences.


Yeah, 1160MHz is a "massive overclock".


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Hint: The average 7970 overclock is 1200MHz



Are you new to overclocking or something?


----------



## Hokies83

Yea i have 12 7950s and they all do atleast 1200. MHz from the stock 850 MHz with under 1.2v my one and only golden 7950 will do 1350 MHz and 1900 MHz on the VRAM with 1.25v on the core and 1.7 on the VRAM.


----------



## ivanlabrie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ivanlabrie*
> 
> CQFEY9RIRJA


precisely.

Edit: ooo it was suppose to actually be something


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

I've had four 7970's (two Lightnings and two Sapphire OC's) and they all did over 1225MHz. Overclocking a card is the only way to know what its actual ultimate performance is. Stock is just what card manufacturers set to get their accountants to sign off...


----------



## Snuckie7

And my 7950 does 1200MHz at 1.11V. I wonder where this guy gets the idea that these overclocks are massive and questionable.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Quite rude to personally attack people when your "obvious solution" is to massively overclock a card.
> 
> What if they take a card that happens to not overclock that well. What if it burns in 6months of overclocking? Do you take that responsibility?
> 
> Are AMD so stupid as to not overclock them themselves if they are so durable? This is an obvious case of either an unstable situation or cards just dying sooner.


Well I've had my 3 7970s @ 1.3v+ for 1 year 4 months and it hasn't even degraded my top clocks stability at all. And yes, of course I take responsibility as does every person who overclocks. Its pretty straight forward, if you don't know what you are doing, don't do it. You are on a forum about overclocking if you hadn't noticed.

....and they do overclock themselves, its called a GHz edition. Highest come in @ 1150-1225 auto boost (so to speak). Which would beat that there 770 @ 1200-1300 (which was already basically matching a 1160 core 7970).

Why would you gave credit to a card that is literally an exact copy of a year and 4 month old card with a 10% clock/performance boost? What the 770 can do is not only achieved and beat by the 7970 (a year and 7 months old) that is also cheaper, but its identical twin, the 680, as well.

You are the only one taking this personaly. No one would be upset if you weren't constantly spreading misinformation. If it was just your opinion, then why throw in definitive statements without both knowing what you are talking about and providing proof to back up them up.


----------



## fateswarm

I like the bias of assuming NVIDIA can't be overclocked.

It's like I entered a promotional booth of AMD.

Wake up, this is just a news article thread.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> What in the world is going on in here? The 770 is a fine card but it isn't a better buy than a 7970 which is faster when OC'd and cheaper. Well, unless you need it for specific reasons like PhysX or 3D (advantages that only Nvidia offers). And saying that buying a card for mining is silly is like saying that buying for folding or rendering or any other reason than gaming is silly. Video cards have plenty of other uses than gaming (and mining for coins is at least profitable though I never personally got into it)....


agreed. the GTX 770 is a good card on its own with better perf/watt wrt HD 7970 and exclusives like physx, adaptive vsync. But the Tahiti HD 7970 at average overclocks of 1150 -1200 mhz will win more against a GTX 770 at its average overclocks of 1250 -1300 mhz. the HD 7970's wins in AMD Gaming evolved games like tombraider, hitman, sleeping dogs, dirt showdown , grid 2, COH 2 and even few TWIMTBP games like Max Payne 3 is significant (15 - 30%) . there are more GE games than TWIMTBP games in the last 18 months as a direct result of AMD's improved Gaming evolved efforts.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I like the bias of assuming NVIDIA can't be overclocked.
> 
> It's like I entered a promotional booth of AMD.
> 
> Wake up, this is just a news article thread.


That there "gpu overclock comparison" I posted...has the 770 overclocked. So....what? You realize a stock 770 comes in @ 1100-1175 core correct?

And considering we are all responding to *your* post:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I wonder why you haven't looked at benchmarks lately. 770 is THE unquestionable winner at its price range.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I hear this AMD mantra a lot, yet benchmarks consistently show 770 beats overclocked AMDs.


that wasn't about the article, I fail to see how we are the ones that need to "wake up".

As I said, you are spreading misinformation as fact, wondering why we are proving you wrong and then getting upset about it.


----------



## fateswarm

It's funny that your smug and commanding behavior only chases customers away from AMD. I assure you, if I were to buy another AMD, I would not now.

I've learned that the more someone gets angry about their opinion, the more likely for that opinion to be wrong.

It makes some sense since Intel dominates AMD on CPUs and now it can't even beat NVIDIA.

It's especially saddening since they are both waiting for TSMC so it has no excuse there.

I'm really hoping for AMD to succeed since those two should not stand unopposed.


----------



## jomama22

Dp?


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> It's funny that your smug and commanding behavior only chases customers away from AMD. I assure you, if I were to buy another AMD, I would not now.
> 
> I've learned that the more someone gets angry about their opinion, the more likely for that opinion to be wrong.
> 
> It makes some sense since Intel dominates AMD on CPUs and now it can't even beat NVIDIA.
> 
> It's especially saddening since they are both waiting for TSMC so it has no excuse there.
> 
> I'm really hoping for AMD to succeed since those two should not stand unopposed.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> It's funny that your smug and commanding behavior only chases customers away from AMD. I assure you, if I were to buy another AMD, I would not now.
> 
> I've learned that the more someone gets angry about their opinion, the more likely for that opinion to be wrong.
> 
> It makes some sense since Intel dominates AMD on CPUs and now it can't even beat NVIDIA.
> 
> It's especially saddening since they are both waiting for TSMC so it has no excuse there.
> 
> I'm really hoping for AMD to succeed since those two should not stand unopposed.


This post makes zero sense at all. We (I) am "smug" because I am correcting your wrong information with proof? If we are name calling now then I guess childish is how I would describe your posts and attitude toward those only correcting you.

AMD and Nvidia are just labels, if they were reversed, and AMD came out with the 770, I would tell you the Nvidia 7970 is better and cheaper.

I couldn't care less what your future GPU purchase may be, but you should probably go Nvidia as your "fact" clearly leans that way.


----------



## ivanlabrie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> It's funny that your smug and commanding behavior only chases customers away from AMD. I assure you, if I were to buy another AMD, I would not now.
> 
> I've learned that the more someone gets angry about their opinion, the more likely for that opinion to be wrong.
> 
> It makes some sense since Intel dominates AMD on CPUs and now it can't even beat NVIDIA.
> 
> It's especially saddening since they are both waiting for TSMC so it has no excuse there.
> 
> I'm really hoping for AMD to succeed since those two should not stand unopposed.


You're making no sense at all with some of your remarks man...

Nvidia cards can be oced, but can't be oced more than 1300mhz* normally since they are limited by design tdp and voltage wise. You're the one in denial...

*(unless you buy a lightning and use water, then you can reach 1400mhz core maybe but not with the run of the mill 770/680)


----------



## fateswarm

Heh, aaah..., the psychology of fans of a company. So cute yet so unproductive.

Anyway. I'll look into the overclocking merits of 7970. It does seem to reach the 770 but I mainly see that on pages with hardcore AMD fans. i.e. it does make sense but they're still overclocking and that can't be a decisive situation, especially when realizing one can overclock an NVIDIA as well.









What I do understand though is that 770 is probably not so amazing. Though what is lately? Both NVIDIA and AMD are horrendous technologically lately compared to Intel. They beg TSMC to shrink the transistor and only whine that they can't even have 20nm (let alone FinFETs) yet.

I truly hate the TSMC situation right now. They should get their act together and start competing on 14nm with Intel right now rather than sitting on it.

But I guess since they see the impending doom of the common silicon era at 10nm, they are all slacking or just all find it hard staring at the abyss.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Heh, aaah..., the psychology of fans of a company. So cute yet so unproductive.
> 
> Anyway. I'll look into the overclocking merits of 7970. It does seem to reach the 770 but I mainly see that on pages with hardcore AMD fans. i.e. it does make sense but they're still overclocking and that can't be a decisive situation, especially when realizing one can overclock an NVIDIA as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I do understand though is that 770 is probably not so amazing. Though what is lately? Both NVIDIA and AMD are horrendous technologically lately compared to Intel. They beg TSMC to shrink the transistor and only whine that they can't even have 20nm (let alone FinFETs) yet.
> 
> I truly hate the TSMC situation right now. They should get their act together and start competing on 14nm with Intel right now rather than sitting on it.
> 
> But I guess since they see the impending doom of the common silicon era at 10nm, they are all slacking or just all find it hard staring at the abyss.


OK first: That review I posted before, *every card is overclocked!* there is no "nivida can overclock" because we are telling you facts after *both* are overclocked.

Second: how do you try to change the subject to lithography and node size about AMD and NVidia compared to Intel when we are talking GPUs. Did you just notice that they both don't have their own fabs or something?

I really am done with you. You are the new regent square.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> What I do understand though is that 770 is probably not so amazing.


You know why? Because it uses literally the exact same chip the 680 uses. It's not remotely new; it's almost as old as Tahiti.

Quote:


> I truly hate the TSMC situation right now. *They should get their act together and start competing on 14nm with Intel right now* rather than sitting on it.


----------



## fateswarm

Yeah, many people claim TSMC is "incapable so it's behind". I doubt it. They have more fish to fry than AMD and NVIDIA so they don't strive for the highest end as much as Intel. They would LIKE to have 14nm now but it's not their top priority. Bad thing is, it IS the top priority of NVIDIA and AMD so without better shrinking they have little chances to compete. NVIDIA whined publicly about it last year. AMD saves face by acting they don't care but everyone should know it's their main plight.

Both NVIDIA and AMD are lucky Intel is not competing successfully on the discreet graphics card venue. Because if it did, they would be doomed yesterday. Both of them.


----------



## Snuckie7

Yeah that's kind of the point&#8230;AMD/ Nvidia/TSMC don't compete with Intel...

Not that any of this is relevant to what we were discussing earlier.


----------



## Booty Warrior

So... how 'bout that HD 9000 series?


----------



## fateswarm

Yeah, I'm not interested in being witch hunted anymore.

I got your point, 7970 can be overclocked and then it competes. I will re-consider AMD though when it provides a new line of products (which is soon).

Excuse me, but I'd rather get something that doesn't need an extensive overclock to complete. It may be AMD, but I'd rather see it do it out of the box.


----------



## Snuckie7

You're complaining about AMD having old cards, but don't see a problem with the 16 month old silicon in the GTX 770? Double standards much?

And no, you're still completely missing the point if you think 7970's need "massive" or "extensive" overclocks to compete with 770s.

If overclocking a card ~10% over stock clocks is out of your comfort zone, you really should find another site to preach your argument to.


----------



## fateswarm

As I said, or implied, I'm not promoting NVIDIA here.

It's always the same thing with fans of something. They immediately assume someone looking at various options is against "their thing".

Relax, I consider both options and I find both NVIDIA and AMD deficient lately. I mainly blame TSMC's slacking, which is why I mentioned it earlier.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Yeah, I'm not interested in being witch hunted anymore.
> 
> I got your point, 7970 can be overclocked and then it competes. I will re-consider AMD though when it provides a new line of products (which is soon).
> 
> Excuse me, but I'd rather get something that doesn't need an extensive overclock to complete. It may be AMD, but I'd rather see it do it out of the box.


You know this site is called *overclock.net* correct?


----------



## fateswarm

Yes, it's not called mindlessoverclockingwithoutanyotherconsideration.net


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I wonder why you haven't looked at benchmarks lately. 770 is THE unquestionable winner at its price range.


Not promoting Nvidia eh?

Also, why can you not seem to wrap your head around the fact that a *lightly overclocked* 7970 matches or beats an overclocked 770?


----------



## Booty Warrior

Yep, the rumored specs on that 9970 are really something...


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Not promoting Nvidia eh?
> 
> Also, why can you not seem to wrap your head around the fact that a *lightly overclocked* 7970 matches or beats an overclocked 770?


I concluded that both NVIDIA and AMD are horrible lately.

Now, stop your witch hunt and go back on topic.


----------



## ivanlabrie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I concluded that both NVIDIA and AMD are horrible lately.
> 
> Now, stop your witch hunt and go back on topic.


Horrible compared to what? Matrox?

Oh, right! No other brand makes gpus these days, silly me.









Dude, grow a pair and admit you were wrong and spreading fud, or just keep it to yourself.


----------



## fateswarm

Why not you just grow up and stop trying to make your bullying work.

I said my opinion that they are both at a horrible state at the moment (mainly because they beg TSMC for a new process) and I will not conform to your childish quest to see your bullying have a result.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> It's funny that your smug and commanding behavior only chases customers away from AMD. I assure you, if I were to buy another AMD, I would not now.
> 
> I've learned that the more someone gets angry about their opinion, the more likely for that opinion to be wrong.
> 
> It makes some sense since Intel dominates AMD on CPUs and now it can't even beat NVIDIA.
> 
> It's especially saddening since they are both waiting for TSMC so it has no excuse there.
> 
> I'm really hoping for AMD to succeed since those two should not stand unopposed.


So gimped rebranded cores > Superior master core (gimping so that it performs better in one taks only might be the true GPU ASIC nature but it is wrong to do so you're essentially giving a half product)
Doesn't seem right to me if only AMD would make a big die.

Btw I just tried mining on a Nvidia gpu and you would say it might be worthless and it kinda is especially considering usage/performance is way too high.
With my old gtx570 @950/2320 I get spikes of up to 170 and I would say and avg of 150 pretty good for a Nvidia gpu.
I should put my HD7850 to work once it is operational it should do almost triple this maybe even more than triple after OC.(though I have an aftermarket model so I don't know how solid it is)


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Yes, it's not called mindlessoverclockingwithoutanyotherconsideration.net


setting a card to a stable limit is not mindless especially if you don't even need to touch the voltage to get a good (not max) OC.


----------



## mcg75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reedy777*
> 
> that's absolute nonsense my matrix platinum 7970 very nearly always beats a GTX 780 when they are both oc'd at £200 less.


The 780 is right behind the Titan in virtually everything. You must have meant 770.

My 7970 at bench only oc of 1275mhz didn't touch my Titan stock in Heaven, Valley, 3dmark, Metro, Mafia 2, Just Cause and more.

I would buy a 7970 over a 770 anyday though. But I would buy a 780 over a 7970 as well.


----------



## fateswarm

I researched your claims a lot.

It appears it's a bad market for the $400 bracket in general.









770, doesn't exactly have the same chip with the 680 but it's a slightly higher stepping, but it's still almost the same so in practice it's an "overclocked 680, almost". Not exactly, but almost. Very slightly better.

7970 is a decent high end card that isn't overclocked to the fullest yet. However, it's still slightly worse in raw chip power. But, it does offer more VRAM.

So: If one *MUST* use > 2GB 7970 appears a good choice. If one WILL NOT use > 2GB (e.g. most games on 1080) then 770 might be a better choice.

It goes without saying both are bad choices technologically since they are outdated and not 'the high end' anymore.

It's sad but it seems to feel comfortable you are doing a 'high end' choice nowadays you have to go >$600.


----------



## Mombasa69

Of course someone is going to say Intel or Nvidia is the best buy, if they've just blown a shed load of cash on one, instead of waiting to see how well stuff runs on the new console ports (yes most pc games are ported from consoles).

And the next gen consoles all run AMD hardware, so don't come moaning when your fancy expensive Intel hardware runs like a sack of ****e on the new ports or at best no better than an AMD FX chip and MB that cost a quarter the price.

MUHAHAHAHA!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> 770, doesn't exactly have the same chip with the 680 but it's a slightly higher stepping, but it's still almost the same so in practice it's an "overclocked 680, almost". Not exactly, but almost. Very slightly better.


It is the same chip just better memory and a better pcb layout no binning done just a better less locked power circuit.


----------



## fateswarm

Look at the actual chip designation. It's actually a different stepping. But, as I said, I doubt it's more than minor improvements.


----------



## AlDyer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mombasa69*
> 
> Of course someone is going to say Intel or Nvidia is the best buy, if they've just blown a shed load of cash on one, instead of waiting to see how well stuff runs on the new console ports (yes most pc games are ported from consoles).
> 
> And the next gen consoles all run AMD hardware, so don't come moaning when your fancy expensive Intel hardware runs like a sack of ****e on the new ports or at best no better than an AMD FX chip and MB that cost a quarter the price.
> 
> MUHAHAHAHA!


Ok thanks for the feedback...


----------



## Phelan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I wonder why you haven't looked at benchmarks lately. 770 is THE unquestionable winner at its price range.


A 7970 is cheaper than a 770, and is very modestly clocked from the factory. 99% of them can be OC'd by 25% or more, while only a 10% OC is needed to match the performance of the 770, which is clocked quite a bit higher. Clock for clock, the 7970 performs on par or better than the 770, but the 7970 not only has 3 GB VRAM, but also a 384 bit memory bus, which also yields more performance. If AMD really to match a 770 from the factory, they could do so with a 1.1 GHz clocked 7970 and call it an 8950 or whatever.


----------



## fateswarm

According to you then, a Titan is an overclocked 780, which is not true.

Titan: GK110-400-A1
780: GK110-300-A1

680: GK104-400-A2
770: GK104-425-A2

The designation is different. Get over that propaganda. It sure is only slight difference since the main specs are same, but the chip is definitely not "the same".


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> According to you then, a Titan is an overclocked 780, which is not true.
> 
> Titan: GK110-400-A1
> 780: GK110-300-A1


Locked SMX units + a gimp on the double precision units.
[/quote]
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> 680: GK104-400-A2
> 770: GK104-425-A2


no differences on the die mostly because they use unused chips.

I don't care for Nvidia's internal naming schemes those are the same chip nothing shut off no noticeable new components same chip.


----------



## Phelan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> According to you then, a Titan is an overclocked 780, which is not true.
> 
> Titan: GK110-400-A1
> 780: GK110-300-A1
> 
> 680: GK104-400-A2
> 770: GK104-425-A2
> 
> The designation is different. Get over that propaganda. It sure is only slight difference since the main specs are same, but the chip is definitely not "the same".


I never said anything about the 780. What I said what was not a generalization, so don't take it as such. I was talking specifically about the 770. The new part # is because of the rased based clock, I guarantee it. And even any differences other than clock speed that there may be between it and the 680 are mute, because effectively they are the same chip. The 770 IIRC has slightly more vcore, which is reason in itself to get it over a 680, but it likely also the reason Nvidia was so adamant about locking down the vcore on the 600 series to begin with. What I don't get is why people are excited to pay a premium for performance they could have had 2 years ago in the 7970.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phelan*
> 
> I never said anything about the 780. What I said what was not a generalization, so don't take it as such. I was talking specifically about the 770. The new part # is because of the rased based clock, I guarantee it. And even any differences other than clock speed that there may be between it and the 680 are mute, because effectively they are the same chip. The 770 IIRC has slightly more vcore, which is reason in itself to get it over a 680, but it likely also the reason Nvidia was so adamant about locking down the vcore on the 600 series to begin with. What I don't get is why people are excited to pay a premium for performance they could have had 2 years ago in the 7970.


100% this


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> According to you then, a Titan is an overclocked 780, which is not true.
> 
> Titan: GK110-400-A1
> 780: GK110-300-A1
> 
> 680: GK104-400-A2
> 770: GK104-425-A2
> 
> The designation is different. Get over that propaganda. It sure is only slight difference since the main specs are same, but the chip is definitely not "the same".


logic fail through and through. and yes, the 770 is the same _chip_ as the 680 with zero changes at all. the part that's different is the memory chips and a more aggressive boost clock profile (nvidia's weapon of choice this generation, super effective). the 780 has gimped dp and two whole SMX units disabled.

on topic, if AMD doesn't call the 7970 replacement the "HD 9800 Pro" I will never buy one.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> According to you then, a Titan is an overclocked 780, which is not true.
> 
> Titan: GK110-400-A1
> 780: GK110-300-A1
> 
> 680: GK104-400-A2
> 770: GK104-425-A2
> 
> The designation is different. Get over that propaganda. It sure is only slight difference since the main specs are same, but the chip is definitely not "the same".


Are you going to tell me the 7970 and the 7970 GHz use different chips now?


----------



## Booty Warrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PureBlackFire*
> 
> on topic, if AMD doesn't call the 7970 replacement the "HD 9800 Pro" I will never buy one.


What? I'm pretty sure the topic of this thread is 770 vs 7970.


----------



## ivanlabrie

They already have a 7950...I'd like an HD 9800 Ultra, 9800 GTX and 9500 GT lineup too for more Nvidia naming scheme trolling.


----------



## lacrossewacker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PureBlackFire*
> 
> on topic, if AMD doesn't call the 7970 replacement the "HD 9800 Pro" I will never buy one.


that was my first GPU upgrade







Radeon 9800 Pro 128mb, upgraded from a Geforce 2 to play UT2003 better. Sucked for BF1942 and Doom 3 though


----------



## Particle

Old cards were fun. I remember what it was like the first time I played GLQuake on my brand new Riva TNT. Amazing.


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Booty Warrior*
> 
> What? I'm pretty sure the topic of this thread is 770 vs 7970.


seems every gpu news/review thread becomes 7970 vs 680, 7950 vs (insert nvidia card that's faster at stock due to boost clocks but slower than an overclocked 7950) or now the 7970 vs 770.


----------



## FLCLimax

this place has become gamefaqs lol.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FLCLimax*
> 
> this place has become gamefaqs lol.


Do I know you?


----------



## lacrossewacker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Do I know you?


Dad? is that you?


----------



## TrevBlu19

So any 9000 specs?


----------



## TrevBlu19

http://www.chiphell.com/forum.php?mo...authorid=77139

試產卡已經發至通路，近期將有料
目前手中一塊12層PCB

散熱競爭方案總計7種
散熱座來自藍寶石
Preproductions cards have been sent to the AIBs, will/might have leaks soon
has a 12 layer board in (his) hands

7 cooling solutions competing for the final design
the cooling base coming from Sapphire


----------



## ivanlabrie

Good stuff!









I want...


----------



## lacrossewacker

Good time to get the new cards in the hands of gamers right before the new consoles drop


----------



## Mygaffer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RobotDevil666*
> 
> This^^
> 
> I lol'd when I've read that bit about performance being better than 780 but lower than Titan , like there is a difference , real world performance for those is non distinguishable , Titan will win in benchmarks but that's about it.
> Sad part is be prepared for $650 AMD Radeon 9970 ........
> I don't think it will be 20nm card , most likely a re-spin of current chips with some improvements.


No, it will definitely be 20nm. Whether or not it beats the GTX780 depends on how big they intend to make the chip. If they keep the die size roughly the same as the 7970 it will probably meet or slightly beat the GTX 780 but should do so at a greatly reduced price.

How do we know this? Well 20nm production begins Q3 2013. That is this fall. According to TSMC:
"TSMC's 20nm process technology can provide 30 percent higher speed, 1.9 times the density, or 25 percent less power than its 28nm technology."

So you can see they either increase clock speeds, run with less power, or greatly increase transistor density. My guess if they will focus on greatly increased transistor density and power savings. Then run a clock speed in the 800Mhz-1000Mhz range with either a 256-bit memory bus and 4GB of vram on the top end sku or 384-bit bus with 6GB of vram.

In any case they are going to be some really nice, powerful cards.

*EDIT:* I say it will definitely be on 20nm but there is a small chance it could still be 28nm. The evidence some might point at to back that up is AMD's CEO has said they will not be going to new nodes as aggressively as in the past, although he was talking about their CPUs at the time. Also new nodes are getting more and more expensive. The reason I think they will go to 20nm is that they just can't take that top spot without either making the die really large, which is also very expensive even on an already proven node like 28nm, or they have to find a _lot_ of extra efficiency in design. I think they have to go 20nm or give up the performance crown and I don't think they are ready to give up the performance crown.


----------



## TrevBlu19

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mygaffer*
> 
> No, it will definitely be 20nm. Whether or not it beats the GTX780 depends on how big they intend to make the chip. If they keep the die size roughly the same as the 7970 it will probably meet or slightly beat the GTX 780 but should do so at a greatly reduced price.


I hope you are right about 20nm.. Then i will definately upgrade from my aging Radeon 6850 :O

P.S. Adding Battlefield 4 WOULD SWEETEN THE DEAL, cause im getting this game anyways


----------



## specopsFI

If they're aiming for availability in October, 20nm isn't going to happen. For the holiday season, maybe. But even that is stretch.


----------



## Kuivamaa

No way this is 20nm. TSMC process is available to both AMD and nvidia, greens wouldn't just refresh their [email protected] and let AMD annihilate them with 20nm cards.


----------



## Roaches

If the 9970 happens to be 20nm with 4096 stream processors, my 2 GTX 680 will quickly see retirement soon









I want muh 4096SP









Unless Maxwell can pull off twice the cores of the 680 at a reasonable cost


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TrevBlu19*
> 
> http://www.chiphell.com/forum.php?mo...authorid=77139
> 
> 試產卡已經發至通路，近期將有料
> 目前手中一塊12層PCB
> 
> 散熱競爭方案總計7種
> 散熱座來自藍寶石
> Preproductions cards have been sent to the AIBs, will/might have leaks soon
> has a 12 layer board in (his) hands
> 
> 7 cooling solutions competing for the final design
> the cooling base coming from Sapphire


12 layered pcb...
I just came a little


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> No way this is 20nm. TSMC process is available to both AMD and nvidia, greens wouldn't just refresh their [email protected] and let AMD annihilate them with 20nm cards.


The could also do it since their "refresh" was just we took the old chips and put a better pcb and better memory with them or just a new pcb and.
Only nice thing was the 780 for gaming as it was gimped to hell and back for compute like all Nvidia gaming products after fermi.
My GTX570 is still going strong in everything though.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phelan*
> 
> is because of the rased based clock, I guarantee it


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> 100% this


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PureBlackFire*
> 
> 770 is the same _chip_ as the 680 with zero changes at all.


I'm sorry, but I'll take the word of the chip stepping designation by the Manufacturer over the "guarantee" of an AMD fan.

Get over it, your Idols at reviews sites got it wrong. The chip has a slightly higher stepping.

In fact, some reviews, did get it:

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/31167-geforce-gtx-780-770-coming-in-may
Quote:


> The current GTX 680 has the GK104-400-A2 core, and the 425 implies some *slight optimisation and changes*.


http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-28507-view-GPU-GK104-425-A2.html
Quote:


> GeForce GTX 770 is based on GPU GK104-425-A2 - *a slightly updated version*


http://www.technationnews.com/2013/05/30/nvidia-geforce-gtx-770-announced-equipped-with-worlds-fastest-7-gbps-memory/
Quote:


> GK104-425 A2 core which is *similar* to the GK104-400 A2


So there you have it, *logic*: It's exactly what I said, the card is "almost an overclocked 680", almost, not exactly.

So, you could say it's an overclocked 680, with a slight variation, perhaps a few overclocking efficiency fixes.

What mainly gets me is that some people are so obsessed with promoting a company that they ridicule themselves and they harm the reputation of the Company. i.e. it's *perfectly viable* to say that it's an overclocked 680 (with some small improvements) so going on a tantrum about how it is "wrong" that the Manufacturer clearly gave it a higher stepping Designation, just harms your reputation and the reputation of what you are promoting without even denying anything great (it's not like the improvement must be that big, they are probably minor).

It's frustrating that I'm not even an "NVIDIA fan", I'm equally looking at all options.







(in fact the only working card I have right now is AMD







)


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Are you going to tell me the 7970 and the 7970 GHz use different chips now?


Different chips get different names, not the other way around.


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> stuff












I don't care that some ill informed reviewers guessed about possible changes (because they figure a company wouldn't sell the same chip under a different name right?) the 770 gpu might have from the 680. don't forget the post I replied to in which _someone_ implied that the Titan was an overclocked 780 (like the 770 > 680) because both were given different designations from the 680 and Titan respectively. _that_ is a massive logic fail. TBH, the 780 is clocked higher than the Titan so there's that idea up in smoke. I also saw that you quoted someone else and this line of thought is not necessarily your personal opinion of things, but more a rebuttal to the person you quoted. it was just too bad of an example. gtx460 to gtx560 would be better to describe this 680 to 770 situation. even there was some quantifiable differences between GF104 and GF114 though, however small.

On topic, I very much doubt the HD 9000 series can be on a 20nm process and be released in October.


----------



## Phelan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I'm sorry, but I'll take the word of the chip stepping designation by the Manufacturer over the "guarantee" of an AMD fan.
> 
> Get over it, your Idols at reviews sites got it wrong. The chip has a slightly higher stepping.
> 
> In fact, some reviews, did get it:
> 
> http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/31167-geforce-gtx-780-770-coming-in-may
> http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-28507-view-GPU-GK104-425-A2.html
> http://www.technationnews.com/2013/05/30/nvidia-geforce-gtx-770-announced-equipped-with-worlds-fastest-7-gbps-memory/
> So there you have it, *logic*: It's exactly what I said, the card is "almost an overclocked 680", almost, not exactly.
> 
> So, you could say it's an overclocked 680, with a slight variation, perhaps a few overclocking efficiency fixes.
> 
> What mainly gets me is that some people are so obsessed with promoting a company that they ridicule themselves and they harm the reputation of the Company. i.e. it's *perfectly viable* to say that it's an overclocked 680 (with some small improvements) so going on a tantrum about how it is "wrong" that the Manufacturer clearly gave it a higher stepping Designation, just harms your reputation and the reputation of what you are promoting without even denying anything great (it's not like the improvement must be that big, they are probably minor).
> 
> It's frustrating that I'm not even an "NVIDIA fan", I'm equally looking at all options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (in fact the only working card I have right now is AMD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


The fact that the stepping is changed is noted. However slight improvement that may be though, effectively it is not a difference maker. That is my point. An OC'd 680 and 770 will perform within margin of error. That's what I was getting at. And that performance trades blows, sometimes below and sometimes above, an OC'd 7970. Period. And I'm not an AMD fanboy. My next planned GPU is a Titan unless AMD bests it before I buy one, since I'm going ITX after my mini Phantom build, and I run triple 1080p.


----------



## fateswarm

As I said, I definitely agree it's almost like an overclocked 680, I was mainly arguing that's it's silly to claim it's 'exactly the same'. It's not, but it's almost.

In fact I'm angry at NVIDIA: I had them better than that. This is clearly a deception. Of course, it's not like AMD doesn't do the same sometimes (especially in CPUs














). But they are both a bit excused: TSMC sucks.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> As I said, I definitely agree it's almost like an overclocked 680, I was mainly arguing that's it's silly to claim it's 'exactly the same'. It's not, but it's almost.
> 
> In fact I'm angry at NVIDIA: I had them better than that. This is clearly a deception. Of course, it's not like AMD doesn't do the same sometimes (especially in CPUs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). But they are both a bit excused: TSMC sucks.


only difference is the pcb and the Vram going with the gtx770 is like shooting yourself in the feet for fun.


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> As I said, I definitely agree it's almost like an overclocked 680, I was mainly arguing that's it's silly to claim it's 'exactly the same'. It's not, but it's almost.
> 
> In fact I'm angry at NVIDIA: I had them better than that. This is *clearly a deception*. Of course, it's not like AMD doesn't do the same sometimes (especially in CPUs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). But they are both a bit excused: TSMC sucks.


this is nothing new. both companies have done it. nvidia has done it more often, but this is name of the game. it's not a bad thing for them to get the most use or longevity out of chips. TSMC always has some snags, but they have a lot of orders to fill from alot of different companies at the same time.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> only difference is the pcb and the Vram going with the gtx770 is like shooting yourself in the feet for fun.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1405825/vc-amd-radeon-hd-9000-series-launching-in-october/340#post_20371460

Re-read. The CHIP has a different designation. The CHIP!

Know what a chip is? Google it.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PureBlackFire*
> 
> this is nothing new. both companies have done it.


No disagreement there. I was saying for 2 days I find both of them deficient.


----------



## KaRLiToS

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1405825/vc-amd-radeon-hd-9000-series-launching-in-october/340#post_20371460
> 
> Re-read. The CHIP has a different designation. The CHIP!
> 
> Know what a chip is? Google it.


You should stop the arrogance and the condescending attitude man. It will not help your reputation.


----------



## Lshuman




----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> You should stop the arrogance and the condescending attitude man. It will not help your reputation.


Fine. The facts have been presented. People have ears, eyes, they can think. Decide for yourself.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1405825/vc-amd-radeon-hd-9000-series-launching-in-october/340#post_20371460
> 
> Re-read. The CHIP has a different designation. The CHIP!
> 
> Know what a chip is? Google it.


First keep it professional and as I said before a different designation doesn't make it a different chip.
I can put any stamp on a package all I want it doesn't make it internally different.

But if you want to play unprofessional:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



*Know what a brain is? Google it...*





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Fine. The facts have been presented. People have ears, eyes, they can think. Decide for yourself.


But some people miss a brain or brain power in some cases



The chip is exactly the same why do you think there were early on reports of 680's turned into 770's they are the same.
Then you came with that argument about Titan and GTX780 how hard is it to figure that the GTX780's GK110 has compute gimped and 2 SMX clusters lasered/disabled and is therefore a different chip based of the same GK110 the Titan uses.

Besides if you want to play Nvidia fanboy by going OT about how it weren't re-purposed chips then you should get lost it is against professionalism actually correcting you is wrong of my part as the ToS which stands above professionalism initiative state to report.

I hope that Chinese guy soon gives us some specs or numbers so we can start speculating if that 12 layered pcb is true we could be facing "the true juggernaut" one thing is for sure the new card will trade blow Nvidia in all non Cuda optimized compute.


----------



## y2kcamaross

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reedy777*
> 
> that's absolute nonsense *my matrix platinum 7970 very nearly always beats a GTX 780 when they are both oc'd* at £200 less. I bought a gtx680 on launch which has never been the faster card despite nvidia's claims plus AMD has the next generation on lockdown with all the new consoles using their GPU's (mainstream games for the next 6-8 years will be built around that platform) they've done the ground work and NVidia is living off customers delusions of yesteryear that they are the premium GPU manufacture. I remember giving my m8s 590 a beat down with two 6950s(oc'd obviously) at £200 less last round too. all the SLI is more stable argument is a bunch of waffle too. I had better stability CF matrix p with a reference 7970. NVidia always seems to deliver me with nothing but disappointment. good PR is all they have going for them IMHO. I mean 2gb of vram (680) cant even max 1080p that's just fail..... rant over


----------



## TiezZ BE

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lshuman*


lol, this thread's last pages made me go to the fridge and open me a cold beer. Too bad this is the last page for now


----------



## kingduqc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaRLiToS*
> 
> You should stop the arrogance and the condescending attitude man. It will not help your reputation.


Those 770 vards are 680 with a tattoo on it, anyone saying other wise is just wrong. The only thing that changed is stock cooler and a bit faster ram but gaming wise performance is way too close to differentiated them.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

While its definitely a long shot, I'd love AMD to release the 9xxx series on 20nm just so I could watch Alatar's head explode!


----------



## Phelan

ANYway, I think the 12 layer PCB will be awesome, but likely still 28 nm process. Just my opinionated speculation though.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> While its definitely a long shot, I'd love AMD to release the 9xxx series on 20nm just so I could watch Alatar's head explode!


Not sure if army/service joke, or just talking about his pro Intel/Nvidia fanboyism


----------



## ivanlabrie

Clearly fanboi-related...he does seem to post whenever someone mentions geforce and radeon in the same thread.

I can't wait to see more leaked info, I'm contemplating going for 3 more 7970s, but two 9970s may be better mwahaha.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1405825/vc-amd-radeon-hd-9000-series-launching-in-october/340#post_20371460
> 
> Re-read. The CHIP has a different designation. The CHIP!
> 
> Know what a chip is? Google it.


_Different chips get different names, not the other way around._


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

Just having some fun with Alatar! I like to tweak him every now and then but OCN wouldn't be the same without him!


----------



## ivanlabrie

He's probably busy, but I expect to see him bomb this thread with some green bioweapons soon...


----------



## Phenomanator53

Guess i better start saving







hope they price is below $700 AUD since the 780 is ~$800


----------



## raghu78

TSMC 20nm is not ready till Q2 2014. 20nm graphics cards can be expected to release in June or July 2014. read TSMC Q1 2013 earnnings call transcript

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1351201-taiwan-semiconductor-manufacturing-management-discusses-q1-2013-results-earnings-call-transcript?part=single

here is the excerpt from the call

Steven C. Pelayo - HSBC, Research Division
What quarter will be the first few percentage of revenues will come from 20-nanometer for TSMC?

Morris Chang - Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
*What quarter will be the first 2% quarter?*

Lora Ho - Chief Financial Officer and Senior Vice President of Finance
Well, based on our current estimation, it will be roughly *second quarter 2014*.

for comparison TSMC 28nm started production in Q4 2011 with 2% of total production volume at 28nm in that quarter
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20130121093033_TSMC_s_Sales_of_28nm_Chips_in_Fourth_Quarter_Totaled_Nearly_1_Billion.html

TSMC has also promised that total 20nm production in 2014 will be more than 28nm production in 2012

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20130121231044_TSMC_Demand_for_20nm_Chips_Will_Be_Higher_Than_Demand_for_28nm_Chips_Nowadays.html

so its late Q2 2014 for 20nm followed by a very steep ramp in H2 2014. so Maxwell GM104 and AMD 20nm can be expected in late Q2 or Q3 2014.

HD 9970 should be a 28nm chip around 420 - 440 sq mm . lots of rumours. my guess is 2560 sp, 4 or 8 ACE, 3 or 4 geometry / raster engines, 48 ROP and clocked at 1 ghz. should end up roughly 30% faster than HD 7970 Ghz. anything less would be a failure for AMD as Nvidia has still not released a fully enabled GK110 with 2880 cuda cores aka Titan Ultra.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raghu78*
> 
> HD 9970 should be a 28nm chip around 420 - 440 sq mm . lots of rumours. my guess is 2560 sp, 4 or 8 ACE, 3 or 4 geometry / raster engines, 48 ROP and clocked at 1 ghz. should end up roughly 30% faster than HD 7970 Ghz. anything less would be a failure for AMD as Nvidia has still not released a fully enabled GK110 with 2880 cuda cores aka Titan Ultra.


This card should be against the 780 anyway so it doesn't really matter.
But it is funny that it will/should crush the Titan in almost all non cuda based compute applications.


----------



## Lee Patekar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Re-read. The CHIP has a different designation. The CHIP!
> Know what a chip is? Google it.


Technically he's correct, but only if you consider re-compiling old source code with a single minor change a new build instead of a revision or patch. Unfortunately its irrelevant unless you run stock clocks and its off topic too.

As for 20nm 9970s... I wouldn't hold my breath. If memory serves, TMSC tend to produce memory modules and other simple designs on a new process first. I guess its a way of easing into things and ironing out issues. Probably a yield thing... Heck I'm no expert in manufacturing.... Nonetheless I'm fairly confident they won't start to run before they can walk. So I don't expect complex and large designs like GPUs on the 20nm process in the short term.


----------



## lacrossewacker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> This card should be against the 780 anyway so it doesn't really matter.
> But it is funny that it will/should crush the Titan in almost all non cuda based compute applications.


The 7970 already beats Titan in a lot of computing applications (outside of Cuda of course)


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> The 7970 already beats Titan in a lot of computing applications (outside of Cuda of course)


If 20nm I will be on the bandwagon if not I might be on the bandwagon.
I regret buying my 570 over the 480 back then so I decided to buy new arch new node only afterwards but not upgrading for so long hurts.


----------



## lacrossewacker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> If 20nm I will be on the bandwagon if not I might be on the bandwagon.
> I regret buying my 570 over the 480 back then so I decided to buy new arch new node only afterwards but not upgrading for so long hurts.


you regret buying a 570 over a 480? Isn't the 570 a 480 just with all the wrinkles ironed out?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> you regret buying a 570 over a 480? Isn't the 570 a 480 just with all the wrinkles ironed out?


Yeah but I could've had the GTX480 sooner that is what I was trying to say.
Both have their pros and cons GTX570 runs cooler and consumes less but the VRM's on the reference models stink so glad I have a Classified 570 instead of reference


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mombasa69*
> 
> Of course someone is going to say Intel or Nvidia is the best buy, if they've just blown a shed load of cash on one, instead of waiting to see how well stuff runs on the new console ports (yes most pc games are ported from consoles).
> 
> And the next gen consoles all run AMD hardware, so don't come moaning when your fancy expensive Intel hardware runs like a sack of ****e on the new ports or at best no better than an AMD FX chip and MB that cost a quarter the price.
> 
> MUHAHAHAHA!


You spreading this fud in more threads than one!

Funny, I don't see any smart gaming company releasing a game that is crippled on Intel or Nvidia hardware.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

I agree, nobody is going to release a game that runs good on AMD and bad on Intel/Nvidia. Still, the console sweep that AMD pulled off will definitely help them especially early on when games release. At least I think so...


----------



## fateswarm

Or maybe, AMD isn't the victim of a conspiracy and they are genuinely slower.

hint: They are restricted by TSMC's inability to compete with Intel.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Or maybe, AMD isn't the victim of a conspiracy and they are genuinely slower.
> 
> hint: They are restricted by TSMC's inability to compete with Intel.


Well it is proven that the Intel compiler optimizes the assembly language for Intel procs they even state this but as long as people us this as there is no real good alternative in terms of being universal it will lag behind a bit pretty much the reason why Intel's offerings get floored in Linux based programs.

But the lagging node is definitely a part of it too.


----------



## fateswarm

Yeah but the thing is almost nobody uses the Intel compiler on open source projects that are routinely used on benchmarks.

Even most Windows programmers use MSVC (or even gcc) on closed programs usually.

People often hear "Intel compiler" and assume everyone is using it. They do not.

It's quite unpopular actually, even if it is considered high quality. Usually.


----------



## DADDYDC650

Where is the 9970!!!!!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DADDYDC650*
> 
> Where is the 9970!!!!!


October is 2 months away









Nice necromance btw this thread needed a bump.


----------



## Blackops_2

Hopefully it comes in two months otherwise i'm not looking forward to dropping 650$ on a 780


----------



## fateswarm

I don't care if it's in 4 years. I want to hear what its specs might be. I don't care about speculation by random chinese sites, at least give the die size or something other basic. If it is in 2 months then they must have started production of the chips at least.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I don't care if it's in 4 years. I want to hear what its specs might be. I don't care about speculation by random chinese sites, at least give the die size or something other basic. If it is in 2 months then they must have started production of the chips at least.


rumour has that they already shipped to various big brands.
another rumour by a user here says that the performance will be above that of a Titan (not that strange if you consider it coming out 5 months after the Titan and this actually being made as a consumer based card from the start instead of a datacenter card(even though gk110 has been on the slides since the beginning))


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> rumour has that they already shipped to various big brands.
> another rumour by a user here says that the performance will be above that of a Titan (not that strange if you consider it coming out 5 months after the Titan and this actually being made as a consumer based card from the start instead of a datacenter card(even though gk110 has been on the slides since the beginning))


I heard that 'card makers getting samples' rumor and it's weird nothing leaked yet. I guess they treat it as their own product and protect it well.

I'd find it hard to believe they'd beat Titan since it will need a price tag of at least $1000 and that market is niche and mainly for marketing.

They will need a product that is at least around $600 or less and another even lower to make a profit. It's what they'll focus most on.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I heard that 'card makers getting samples' rumor and it's weird nothing leaked yet. I guess they treat it as their own product and protect it well.
> 
> I'd find it hard to believe they'd beat Titan since it will need a price tag of at least $1000 and that market is niche and mainly for marketing.
> 
> They will need a product that is at least around $600 or less and another even lower to make a profit. It's what they'll focus most on.


I wouldn't necessarily bet on the $1000 price tag. Remember the Titan price in part was due to supply. Even at their $1000 price I am sure it was at a loss.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> I wouldn't necessarily bet on the $1000 price tag. Remember the Titan price in part was due to supply. Even at their $1000 price I am sure it was at a loss.


Well even if they drop it to something like $700 or $800 I'd still find a niche and with a main purpose to advertise the company.

They will need sub-$600 products to really see a profit and it's what they should pay most of the attention to.

edit: Oh, if you meant they might go to ~$1400, no contest there.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Well even if they drop it to something like $700 or $800 I'd still find a niche and with a main purpose to advertise the company.
> 
> They will need sub-$600 products to really see a profit and it's what they should pay most of the attention to.
> 
> edit: Oh, if you meant they might go to ~$1400, no contest there.


Its AMD they well likely be lower. Besides with the APU consoles and such, it might be in their best interest to flood the market, go low.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Well even if they drop it to something like $700 or $800 I'd still find a niche and with a main purpose to advertise the company.
> 
> They will need sub-$600 products to really see a profit and it's what they should pay most of the attention to.
> 
> edit: Oh, if you meant they might go to ~$1400, no contest there.


It will be sub 650 dollar since that is the price of a Evga Classified 780 which beats Titan once OC'ed they can't let a expensive card like the Classified be better price/perf than their solution.


----------



## ladcrooks

I just want a decent single card set up again for games, and not in the 650 - 1000 range









AMD - Please don't let me down


----------



## Darklyric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I wonder why you haven't looked at benchmarks lately. 770 is THE unquestionable winner at its price range.


this is meant to be funny right or shalst the evidence come? Also, you up there, your 780s computing performance is = to its consumption when your lookin at it from a profitably stand point.


----------



## Moustache

20nm in 2 months from now? Oh please, it's a joke.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moustache*
> 
> 20nm in 2 months from now? Oh please, it's a joke.


Considering tap out has been completed months ago it indeed is samples are already shipped so 99.5% chance that it is 28nm.


----------



## Moustache

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Considering tap out has been completed months ago it indeed is samples are already shipped so 99.5% chance that it is 28nm.


Yeh and I wonder how much more performance that AMD can squeeze out of their 28nm. Nvidia did it pretty well with their Titan/780 and I'm really hoping that AMD can do the same.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moustache*
> 
> Yeh and I wonder how much more performance that AMD can squeeze out of their 28nm. Nvidia did it pretty well with their Titan/780 and I'm really hoping that AMD can do the same.


For Nvidia that performance increase required a die size increase of 260mm^2...

The perf increase wasn't normal at all for a refresh. Usually you don't start out with a mid range chip and refresh with the high end one.


----------



## Mombasa69

Well worth the wait, not spending my hard earned cash 'til October, must say the wait is really killing me.

I thought the Titan was the biggest rip-off this century though, seeing as it's only 7% faster than a 780 that costs a hell of a lot less.


----------



## ladcrooks

seems a rip off year considering the world is in a slump


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> It will be sub 650 dollar since that is the price of a Evga Classified 780 which beats Titan once OC'ed they can't let a expensive card like the Classified be better price/perf than their solution.


I'm not convinced those (ultra-)overclocked 780s can survive more than 6months of use. Do they provide a warranty on those clocks?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ladcrooks*
> 
> seems a rip off year considering the world is in a slump


Well yeah, that's true. The whole year is disappointing for a new system since early 2014 onwards may see both 14nm and 20nm products. They may even actively try to hide that fact for their own product line since Intel recently admitted on its earnings press conference that once people see new technology coming out, profits diminish in anticipation of it.

Then again, since they find it increasingly difficult to shrink the transistor, and NVIDIA recently explained that the smaller the process is, the harder it is to have voltage headroom, then it might not be a huge disappointment to not be a user of a next process.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I'm not convinced those (ultra-)overclocked 780s can survive more than 6months of use. Do they provide a warranty on those clocks?
> .


If you keep the stock bios yes otherwise also yes unless your eeprom dies(EEPROM's are rock solid besides that the classified has 2)


----------



## maneil99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I'm not convinced those (ultra-)overclocked 780s can survive more than 6months of use. Do they provide a warranty on those clocks?
> Well yeah, that's true. The whole year is disappointing for a new system since early 2014 onwards may see both 14nm and 20nm products. They may even actively try to hide that fact for their own product line since Intel recently admitted on its earnings press conference that once people see new technology coming out, profits diminish in anticipation of it.
> 
> Then again, since they find it increasingly difficult to shrink the transistor, and NVIDIA recently explained that the smaller the process is, the harder it is to have voltage headroom, then it might not be a huge disappointment to not be a user of a next process.


Those "ultra overclocked 780s" will survive years aslong as they weren't modified to provide extra voltage.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maneil99*
> 
> Those "ultra overclocked 780s" will survive years aslong as they weren't modified to provide extra voltage.


Why are you sarcastic? They are pretty ultra overclocked.


----------



## maneil99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Why are you sarcastic? They are pretty ultra overclocked.


Sorry, wasn't being sarcastic, really wasn't being anything lol


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Why are you sarcastic? They are pretty ultra overclocked.


Maybe he saw some of your earlier posts in this thread and noticed that you have a very loose definition of "ultra" and "massive" overclocks.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Maybe he saw some of your earlier posts in this thread and noticed that you have a very loose definition of "ultra" and "massive" overclocks.


Even so a sustained 1300MHz clock should run for years I run my card full load overclocked 24/7 and it runs fine most of the time unless Nvidia cheaps out on their vrm's like they did on the reference 570 mine got replaced by EVGA for a classified and the problems are now gone.


----------



## fateswarm

Well if it fails on the VRs it fails.

How do we find what has good VRs by the way? Main system boards have Sin's list. These?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Well if it fails on the VRs it fails.
> 
> How do we find what has good VRs by the way? Main system boards have Sin's list. These?


You can't really tell until you have the pc open before you unless there is a specsheet available.
Buying things under warranty and you can't go wrong.


----------



## bluedevil

Any word on pricing for a HD9870? Cant seem to find anything.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluedevil*
> 
> Any word on pricing for a HD9870? Cant seem to find anything.


The October rumour in whole is unconfirmed and never crossreferenced. All "sources" appear to recycle the same initial rumour based on a website about a conference.

Today we have (confirmed) news the 7990 is slashed to $700. This may be the only answer to NVIDIA. Not such a great answer since that's basically a 7970 on CF and mainly a benefit to small factor PCs.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Serios*
> 
> Such a useless answer


Are you serious? I guess it's my fault spending time trying to educate you. The 9000 series in whole coming near is a an unconfirmed rumour without any crossreferencing.

Sorry I can't alter reality for you. Try the movies.


----------



## Serios

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Are you serious? I guess it's my fault spending time trying to educate you. The 9000 series in whole coming near is a an unconfirmed rumour without any crossreferencing.
> 
> Sorry I can't alter reality for you. Try the movies.


You are the one that just proved that this is a biased and useless answer.
Educate yourself buddy.
You wrote the same thing all over OCN is very annoying. Do yo have some mission ore something???


----------



## PolyMorphist

I wonder what the scaling would be like. Hopefully AMD will increase performance in terms of CF... I don't mind spending an extra couple hundred for dual 9950's instead of a single 9970 as long as the scaling's decent. As for the 3-game bundle, I'm hoping for BF4, Total War: Rome 2 and SR4. The scaling on my 780's are horrible; hopefully AMD can one-up NV


----------



## NJsFinest24

So I have a question. With the new 9000 series coming out soon. Will there be a 9990 or is the 9970 the top card for them?? Just curious. I have been using Nvidia since I started computer gaming and I am looking to switch to AMD if the 9000 series holds up to all the hype its getting. Thanks for any info on this.


----------



## Darklyric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NJsFinest24*
> 
> So I have a question. With the new 9000 series coming out soon. Will there be a 9990 or is the 9970 the top card for them?? Just curious. I have been using Nvidia since I started computer gaming and I am looking to switch to AMD if the 9000 series holds up to all the hype its getting. Thanks for any info on this.


Seems feasible to me since the xx90 cards are usually just 2 x xx70 cards. If you want a high end amd gpu go get a 7990 now as they come with 8 games and droped 350-300$ in price over the last few days.


----------



## NJsFinest24

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darklyric*
> 
> Seems feasible to me since the xx90 cards are usually just 2 x xx70 cards. If you want a high end amd gpu go get a 7990 now as they come with 8 games and droped 350-300$ in price over the last few days.


Yea I noticed the big price drop of the 7990s which I think is just incredible. But I think I will hold off until the 9970 comes out and grab two of them if a 9990 is not announced.


----------



## cam51037

What I'm wondering about the 9xxx cards are this, but I'm mostly wondering about the 9970:
-Power consumption
-gaming performance
-mining performance
[email protected] performance

I was thinking to get two of them for crossfire on day 1 but now looking at the costs I think I'll go single 9970 a few days after release just to see if it's worth it to get it over a different card, and then I won't have to wait as long for a waterblock either.


----------



## Snuckie7

Hot damn, has anyone seen this leaked benchmark?



Titan scores about 4500-4700 for reference.


----------



## EliteReplay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Hot damn, has anyone seen this leaked benchmark?
> 
> 
> 
> Titan scores about 4500-4700 for reference.


where this come from....


----------



## kpforce1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NJsFinest24*
> 
> So I have a question. With the new 9000 series coming out soon. Will there be a 9990 or is the 9970 the top card for them?? Just curious. I have been using Nvidia since I started computer gaming and I am looking to switch to AMD if the 9000 series holds up to all the hype its getting. Thanks for any info on this.


Everything that hasn't come out is over hyped whilst everything available is under hyped lol... this is all speculation as is any unreleased product information







. My advice, start saving the $ now and wait if you are happy with your current hardware... OR depending on your current hardware get something that is already available







. I can't see what your system is comprised of. You should fill out your rig specs via rigbuilder









As for me, with the 99xx seriese I will probably be going back to AMD on my secondary rig if they pan out like i'm hoping


----------



## DADDYDC650

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Hot damn, has anyone seen this leaked benchmark?
> 
> 
> 
> Titan scores about 4500-4700 for reference.


Is that supposed to have come from a 9950/9970??


----------



## EliteReplay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DADDYDC650*
> 
> Is that supposed to have come from a 9950/9970??


if that the case i will defenily get one by release date... Superior Titan performance for $550-600 bucks... GOOD JOB AMD


----------



## Snuckie7

Some Hawaii GPU according to the article.


----------



## Alatar

It comes from a random post on the chiphell forums. No other source, no confirmation, no nothing.

So assume fake unless proven otherwise. There are almost always fake scores before the real ones start coming in.

However even if it was real, it's still quite far from a high OC Titan: http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/966445 (1250MHz)


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> It comes from a random post on the chiphell forums. No other source, no confirmation, no nothing.
> 
> So assume fake unless proven otherwise. There are almost always fake scores before the real ones start coming in.
> 
> However even if it was real, it's still quite far from a high OC Titan: http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/966445 (1250MHz)


And exactly what percentage of Titans hit 1250MHz?


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> And exactly what percentage of Titans hit 1250MHz?


Not many, but just giving an example, couldn't find a 1200mhz one quickly....

But anyways, the source for the pic is a random post on chiphell forums. So I wouldn't really trust it any more than a random post on any other forum...


----------



## cam51037

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Not many, but just giving an example, couldn't find a 1200mhz one quickly....
> 
> But anyways, the source for the pic is a random post on chiphell forums. So I wouldn't really trust it any more than a random post on any other forum...


But if it turns out to be real...


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cam51037*
> 
> But if it turns out to be real...


Then it would depend on how the card would OC...

However the perf increase sounds unrealistic considering their current offerings and that these will still be 28nm.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Faster than a 780, slower than Titan, and at $550? I would immediately buy two.......

I don't see it happening though, not the price point at least.


----------



## Newbie2009

I dunno, if it's faster than a 780 it will be more expensive I would guess. My 7970s were not cheap when I got them on launch.


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> It comes from a random post on the chiphell forums. No other source, no confirmation, no nothing.
> 
> So assume fake unless proven otherwise. There are almost always fake scores before the real ones start coming in.
> 
> However even if it was real, it's still quite far from a high OC Titan: http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/966445 (1250MHz)


Because we can compare a nearly golden card with a 50% overclock to a stock card...


----------



## Vesku

If it's faster than the GTX 780 it will probably launch at $600-650 with a somewhat cut down model at $500-550 to counter Nvidia potentially dropping the price on the 780.


----------



## PolyMorphist

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> Gotta say your posts in this thread are quite comical. You could be the poster child for FANBOYS on both sides, depending on what side of the bed you woke up on. Titan is a great card but its price makes its performance irrelevant. Oh yeah I said it, IRRELEVANT, anybody want some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol. Now that the stutter argument is being put to rest any 2 cards in the top tier will out perform the Titan and possibly for less. Besides the lack of supply will keep the Titan from ever going mainstream. For those that bought it they got a great performer and I am sure they are enjoying it. But for those that wish to taunt its performance over other way less expensive cards, it only goes as far as to prove your arrogance and elite nature. Most of us don't envy you nor do your arguments entice us to do so. I have no qualms with my 7770 x2, al-be-it I prefer 7970 x2, and they perform to my needs exceedingly. Not that I usually care but I do hope that AMDs 9970, or whatever the new naming scheme shall be, STOMPs the Titan just so I wont have to see the elitist few talk about the Titan like it is some modern day marvel.






You must understand that the TITAN was simply a card that Nvidia released to almost 'tease' the next-gen cards (700 series). That's why the 780's performance is pretty similar to the TITAN's. If a person really cared about price/performance, they wouldn't have bought a TITAN now, would they? The TITAN was simply a card for people who didn't want to wait the extra couple months for the 780's, and for those with DEEP pockets and a thirst for OCing and Benching. It's like buying 32GB of RAM...

You simply cannot compare a card that came out 3 months ago to a card that will come out in 2 months (half-year difference almost) without receiving hate, as you've kindly proven. I agree that it's a bit unfair that people are comparing $1000 cards to cards worth half of that, but they were simply doing to because the performance would be similar in terms of benchmarks. To help you understand, even if the GTX 780 was $700, and the 8970 was priced at $500, people would still compare the two because of the performance.

Oh.. and for the record, the TITAN *IS* a modern day marvel.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PolyMorphist*
> 
> 
> You must understand that the TITAN was simply a card that Nvidia released to almost 'tease' the next-gen cards (700 series). That's why the 780's performance is pretty similar to the TITAN's. If a person really cared about price/performance, they wouldn't have bought a TITAN now, would they? The TITAN was simply a card for people who didn't want to wait the extra couple months for the 780's, and for those with DEEP pockets and a thirst for OCing and Benching. It's like buying 32GB of RAM...
> 
> You simply cannot compare a card that came out 3 months ago to a card that will come out in 2 months (half-year difference almost) without receiving hate, as you've kindly proven. I agree that it's a bit unfair that people are comparing $1000 cards to cards worth half of that, but they were simply doing to because the performance would be similar in terms of benchmarks. To help you understand, even if the GTX 780 was $700, and the 8970 was priced at $500, people would still compare the two because of the performance.
> 
> Oh.. and for the record, the TITAN *IS* a modern day marvel.


What about a bigger die and no new tech is a marvel? And it wasn't a tease , it was a way to recoup the possible losses as these are failed professional cards. I am not trying to demean the cards and the fact they have great performance but they aren't the next evolutionary change in GFX cards. Something like GCN would be an example ( haven't seen anything on the Nvidia side lately to use as an example). And the fact that they would never constitute more than 1% of the market of new cards, and were never intended to, doesn't add to their validity in most arguments on performance. That would be like me arguing that the 1966 Ford GT40 is the best car ever when only 108 were ever made ( total GT40s across all years). Doesn't change the fact of its prowess in performance but doesn't belong in the performance argument that would include the other 99.9999% of the automobiles.

Besides My original argument there wasn't about the Titan itself but the side of the argument the poster has taken and how it was carried out.


----------



## Darklyric

...... 180$ ref 7950's .....150$ ghz 7870's......130$ 7850's (twin frozers).... i think they are trying to clear house and make room personally


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Usario*
> 
> Because we can compare a nearly golden card with a 50% overclock to a stock card...


because he is the official Titan brand ambassador on OCN


----------



## Darkpriest667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darklyric*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...... 180$ ref 7950's .....150$ ghz 7870's......130$ 7850's (twin frozers).... i think they are trying to clear house and make room personally


Where are 180 ref 7950s!?!


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darkpriest667*
> 
> Where are 180 ref 7950s!?!


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127737

it's only $180 if you really believe that rebate is ever coming in the mail


----------



## 2010rig

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Usario*
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127737
> 
> it's only $180 if you really believe that rebate is ever coming in the mail


That's amazing, even without the rebate. I always forget to mail mine out.


----------



## Darkpriest667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2010rig*
> 
> That's amazing, even without the rebate. I always forget to mail mine out.


yeah 209... hate the cooler though. I bet that thing overheats like crazy. You gotta pull that off and put your own on there.


----------



## l No l FeaR l

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darklyric*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...... 180$ ref 7950's .....*150$ ghz 7870's*......130$ 7850's (twin frozers).... i think they are trying to clear house and make room personally


Where? I can't find them! Lowest I found was $170 at newegg.


----------



## skitz9417

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *l No l FeaR l*
> 
> Where? I can't find them! Lowest I found was $170 at newegg.


im juts wondering would a hd 9870 bottkeneck a x6 1075t


----------



## NJsFinest24

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kpforce1*
> 
> Everything that hasn't come out is over hyped whilst everything available is under hyped lol... this is all speculation as is any unreleased product information
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . My advice, start saving the $ now and wait if you are happy with your current hardware... OR depending on your current hardware get something that is already available
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I can't see what your system is comprised of. You should fill out your rig specs via rigbuilder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for me, with the 99xx seriese I will probably be going back to AMD on my secondary rig if they pan out like i'm hoping


Yea I have the money to get the 99xx series when it comes out, maybe 2 if they are that good. I did the Rigbuilder like you said but I cant seem to figure out how to add it so everyone can see it in my profile or when I comment like you have it.


----------



## racecar56

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *l No l FeaR l*
> 
> Where? I can't find them! Lowest I found was $170 at newegg.


I also wonder this.


----------



## Vesku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *racecar56*
> 
> I also wonder this.


I think he was referring to this MSI 7950 from a 7950 compilation thread in the Online Deals section:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127737&nm_mc=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r&cm_mmc=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r-_-Video+Cards+-+AMD/ATI-_-MSI-_-14127737

210 with $30 rebate atm

Does look like some clearing out of stock is starting to happen.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Then it would depend on how the card would OC...
> 
> However the perf increase sounds unrealistic considering their current offerings and that these *will still be 28nm*.


Quite probable but not necessarily true


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PolyMorphist*
> 
> Oh.. and for the record, the TITAN *IS* a modern day marvel.


Lol no it is not otherwise the GTX 8800+ GTX285/275 GTX480 GTX580 would all have been marvels while we all know they are just big die cards nothing more.
Locking down a product isn't exactly a marvel if you ask me "greenlight" is the thorn in everyone's eye.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skitz9417*
> 
> im juts wondering would a hd 9870 bottkeneck a x6 1075t


I don't think it will only in cpu intensive or very poorly optimized games.
If the specs are about 7950/7970 in strength then they'll be just fine for most games.


----------



## skitz9417

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> I don't think it will only in cpu intensive or very poorly optimized games.
> If the specs are about 7950/7970 in strength then they'll be just fine for most games.


ok cool cheers


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darklyric*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...... 180$ ref 7950's .....150$ ghz 7870's......130$ 7850's (twin frozers).... i think they are trying to clear house and make room personally


And prices in Finland:
Ref 7950 ~300€ = 400$
GHZ 7870 ~250€ = 334$
7850 twin frozr ~220€ = 295$

Clearing stock... Clearly... Man I'd love to be able to buy hw with american pricing.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ukkooh*
> 
> And prices in Finland:
> Ref 7950 ~300€ = 400$
> GHZ 7870 ~250€ = 334$
> 7850 twin frozr ~220€ = 295$
> 
> Clearing stock... Clearly... Man *I'd love to be able to buy hw with american pricing*.


Well that is an understatement we however have a more efficient power grid which is canceled out by the fact that power costs 2 to 3 times as much and let's not even start about all the other things that are overly expensive.
It is the price that we pay for order.


----------



## -----

i'm planning to buy an hd 9950 but do you think that they will release a new series very soon or i can stay relaxed and amd will stuck with that for a while?


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-----*
> 
> i'm planning to buy an hd 9950 but do you think that they will release a new series very soon or i can stay relaxed and amd will stuck with that for a while?


AMD has only confirmed (according to 2 journalists) that they will announce something on Volcanic Islands GPUs in September. Nothing else is confirmed.

That in turn means that in my opinion there is an 80% probability they will release something on 28nm on October or around that, but also a good chance they may just go with 20nm on early 2014.

What is certain the real progress for GPUs will occur from February 2014 onwards because they are both on TSMC and that is the point the new technology will be mass produced.


----------



## -----

ok,gotcha
i am planning to build a new pc on october,so i don't wont to wait too much.
but buying a 4670k and a 9000 will keep me on the gaming road for a year on ultra(even without filters)i wont really hard to play the new the witcher 3 on ultra and it will realese on late 2014
what do you think?








or i will need to upgrade sooner?

there will be even a chance that the 9000 series will be manufactured with 20nm process?


----------



## xoleras

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-----*
> 
> ok,gotcha
> i am planning to build a new pc on october,so i don't wont to wait too much.
> but buying a 4670k and a 9000 will keep me on the gaming road for a year on ultra(even without filters)i wont really hard to play the new the witcher 3 on ultra and it will realese on late 2014
> what do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or i will need to upgrade sooner?
> 
> there will be even a chance that the 9000 series will be manufactured with 20nm process?


Pretty simple. We can only speculate on the AMD 9000 series, nobody knows where it will perform. AMD's obvious target is the Titan and we don't know how close it lands to that yet. AMD already matches the 770 (roughly) so they have to meet the 780 or Titan to have a viable product, so that's the obvious target. Again, whether it is faster or the same nobody knows yet.

If you can go by a month without a GPU, then wait until the 25th of September. Otherwise, there are some other choices on the market already.

Also, there is absolutely no chance that 9970 will be 20nm. 20nm at TSMC is still in the risk testing phase and will not be ready for prime time until 2Q or 2H 2014.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xoleras*
> 
> Also, there is absolutely no chance that 9970 will be 20nm. 20nm at TSMC is still in the risk testing phase and will not be ready for prime time until 2Q or 2H 2014.


Not if they will not release anything in October at all. Granted I also find it very unlikely but I wouldn't be VERY surprised.


----------



## -----

decided.
Noè i will buy the core parts cpu, RAM,mobo
and then at 25 of September I will decide:
if they will release new cards on October I'll go with a 9950
if not I will take a good gtx770.
now the answer is :if I take an ipotetic amd 9950 or a good 770 how will they last me can I go with ultra for minimum 1 year?


----------



## -----

decided.
Noè i will buy the core parts cpu, RAM,mobo
and then at 25 of September I will decide:
if they will release new cards on October I'll go with a 9950
if not I will take a good gtx770.
now the answer is :if I take an ipotetic amd 9950 or a good 770 how will they last me can I go with ultra for minimum 1 year?


----------



## APhamX

I plan on selling my two 7870xt's, putting a 9970 in a watercooled loop and call it done. Assuming a 9970 performance will > 7870Xt's in cf for 6040x1080 gaming.


----------



## Ukkooh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-----*
> 
> decided.
> Noè i will buy the core parts cpu, RAM,mobo
> and then at 25 of September I will decide:
> if they will release new cards on October I'll go with a 9950
> if not I will take a good gtx770.
> now the answer is :if I take an ipotetic amd 9950 or a good 770 how will they last me can I go with ultra for minimum 1 year?


On new games neither of them can run ultra for even half a year unless you game on sub 1080p.


----------



## natukiss

im planning to buy a new pc and im thinking about getting the gigabyte 770 gtx oc windforce edition..or maybe to wait until october for the 9950?
it will be worth the wait?
what do you think guys?


----------



## Snuckie7

AMD's current gen flagship still goes toe to toe with the GTX 770, so I would definitely wait if you don't need a new video card now.


----------



## chrisguitar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *natukiss*
> 
> im planning to buy a new pc and im thinking about getting the gigabyte 770 gtx oc windforce edition..or maybe to wait until october for the 9950?
> it will be worth the wait?
> what do you think guys?


no one knows the performance but one could guess that due to the 7970 GHZ already performing with the 770, that a 9950 will beat a 770.


----------



## veyron1001

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrisguitar*
> 
> no one knows the performance but one could guess that due to the 7970 GHZ already performing *better* than the 770, that a 9950 will beat a 770.


fixed


----------



## -----

so if we can assume that the 9950 will be better than a 770 how will they it last me to play on ultra with/without filters?
I mean I will be able to play games on high/ultra until the end of 2014 with a9500 paired with a 4670k both overclocked


----------



## -----

so if we can assume that the 9950 will be better than a 770 how will they it last me to play on ultra with/without filters?
I mean I will be able to play games on high/ultra until the end of 2014 with a9500 paired with a 4670k both overclocked


----------



## Stefy

Meh, seeing as Nvidia's 7xx series really isn't that impressive, and AMD might try to match those speeds, then I see no reason to upgrade my 7950.


----------



## lacrossewacker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stefy*
> 
> Meh, seeing as Nvidia's 7xx series really isn't that impressive, and AMD might try to match those speeds, then I see no reason to upgrade my 7950.


Not sure how you feel about CFX, but just buy a second 7950 down the road for cheap









That's what I do. Buying a second 670 for $150 today.


----------



## Wildcard36qs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> Not sure how you feel about CFX, but just buy a second 7950 down the road for cheap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I do. Buying a second 670 for $150 today.


Where can one buy his first 670 for $150? lol


----------



## -----

in conclusion how much will last me a 4670k with a 9950 both overclocked to play on ultra without the filters can i play well for about an year?


----------



## -----

assuming that a 9950 will be between the 770 and a 780?


----------



## lacrossewacker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wildcard36qs*
> 
> Where can one buy his first 670 for $150? lol


well yeah, but in the long run, it's cheaper me to to buy a 670 at launch for $400, then buying a second 670 today for $150, rather than purchasing the 780 up front. Not only am I staying up with the times, I'm also stretching out the use of my previous purchase even further.

Just as somebody buying a 780 now can purchase another in a year and a half-2 years just as they're starting to lose ground to the next series..


----------



## fateswarm

I like when they say 7970 "beats" 770, they always compare overclocked 7970s with stock 770s (or almost stock 770). They have created an illusion that 770 is "massively overclocked already" when in reality only the VRAM is significantly better.

Then they rush to post benchmarks, not realizing no one cares to benchmark the 770 anymore. GK104 is last year's news. (e.g. someone posted to me the other day a collection of *a few thousand* benchmarks "proving" 7970 has higher scorers and didn't mention that the 770 had only like 200 benchmarks). Nobody cares about the 770/GK104 in benchmarking anymore.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I like when they say 7970 "beats" 770, they always compare overclocked 7970s with stock 770s (or almost stock 770). They have created an illusion that 770 is "massively overclocked already" when in reality only the VRAM is significantly better.


Nope, overclocked 7970's beat overclocked 770's. It's not really our fault if a 770 overclocked to the max is "almost stock." Locked voltage and GPU Boost for the win!


----------



## fateswarm

Yeah and then they post benchmarks to "prove it" and you notice the collection of benchmarks form 7970 are like 8,000 and for 770 like 200 because nobody cares to benchmark that old horse (GK104).


----------



## Snuckie7

You say nobody cares, but apparently you seem to care quite a bit. Not that it changes the facts. Pretty convenient excuse to ignore all the data though.


----------



## LukaTCE

On techpowerup review GTX 770 OC is better then HIS 7970 OC (8+8 pin)


----------



## ThatKidIsCrazy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stefy*
> 
> Meh, seeing as Nvidia's 7xx series really isn't that impressive, and AMD might try to match those speeds, then I see no reason to upgrade my 7950.


Same here. In fact, I just bought a second 7950 (even though I don't really need it) because next gen hardware IMO doesn't seem like it is going to be as great as everyone is hoping.


----------



## Nexo

I wanna see how much they are going to cost.


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I like when they say 7970 "beats" 770, they always compare overclocked 7970s with stock 770s (or almost stock 770). They have created an illusion that 770 is "massively overclocked already" when in reality only the VRAM is significantly better.
> 
> Then they rush to post benchmarks, not realizing no one cares to benchmark the 770 anymore. GK104 is last year's news. (e.g. someone posted to me the other day a collection of *a few thousand* benchmarks "proving" 7970 has higher scorers and didn't mention that the 770 had only like 200 benchmarks). Nobody cares about the 770/GK104 in benchmarking anymore.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Yeah and then they post benchmarks to "prove it" and you notice the collection of benchmarks form 7970 are like 8,000 and for 770 like 200 because nobody cares to benchmark that old horse (GK104).


Nobody compares 7970 OC to stock 770. Or at least I've never seen that. Usually it's stock v stock or OC v OC.

Who cares if there are less benchmarks for the 770 if it loses almost all of them? Is 200 benchmarks not enough?


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Usario*
> 
> Nobody compares 7970 OC to stock 770. Or at least I've never seen that. Usually it's stock v stock or OC v OC.
> 
> Who cares if there are less benchmarks for the 770 if it loses almost all of them? Is 200 benchmarks not enough?


Oh wait, but he's going to tell you they don't matter because "nobody cares"


----------



## APhamX

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *natukiss*
> 
> im planning to buy a new pc and im thinking about getting the gigabyte 770 gtx oc windforce edition..or maybe to wait until october for the 9950?
> it will be worth the wait?
> what do you think guys?


I mean, if you're not going to need a comp soon either way, waiting for october/november you can probably catch price drops for the 770 if the 9950 isn't worth it for you.


----------



## -----

how long will last me a 4670k with a hd9950 both overclocked to play on high/ultra without filters


----------



## y2kcamaross

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-----*
> 
> how long will last me a 4670k with a hd9950 both overclocked to play on high/ultra without filters


why do people ask these kinds of questions? We aren't fortune tellers and the 9950 isn't even released


----------



## fateswarm

200 is not enough when they do not look for a mean and a standard deviation. Those people do not look for the normal distribution of the results, they explicitly look for the extreme ends. And the extreme ends WILL be more impressive BY A LARGE MARGIN on a sample of a few thousand VS a few 200.

Ask your local statistician if you don't believe me.

(They are mathematicians)


----------



## Kinaesthetic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Nope, overclocked 7970's beat overclocked 770's. It's not really our fault if a 770 overclocked to the max is "almost stock." Locked voltage and GPU Boost for the win!


To be fair, you are correct. But the newest MSI Afterburner allows for unlocked voltage on the GTX 770/780/Titan (the latter two I'm not 100% sure, but the GTX 770 I'm 100% sure). And its allowing the GTX 770 to have a high enough overclock to start rivaling the unlocked voltages, overclocked HD 7970s (and in some/many cases, beating them). And this is OC to death vs OC to death.


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> 200 is not enough when they do not look for a mean and a standard deviation. Those people do not look for the normal distribution of the results, they explicitly look for the extreme ends. And the extreme ends WILL be more impressive BY A LARGE MARGIN on a sample of a few thousand VS a few 200.
> 
> Ask your local statistician if you don't believe me.
> 
> (They are mathematicians)


>The GTX 770 loses most of the 200 benchmarks have been run on it, but 200 isn't enough benchmarks!!!!

I hope you're trolling.

I'm incredibly close to filtering you.


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> 200 is not enough when they do not look for a mean and a standard deviation. Those people do not look for the normal distribution of the results, they explicitly look for the extreme ends. And the extreme ends WILL be more impressive BY A LARGE MARGIN on a sample of a few thousand VS a few 200.
> 
> Ask your local statistician if you don't believe me.
> 
> (They are mathematicians)


>The GTX 770 loses most of the 200 benchmarks have been run on it, but 200 isn't enough benchmarks!!!!

I hope you're trolling.

I'm incredibly close to filtering you.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Usario*
> 
> I'm incredibly close to filtering you.


I guess I'll lose nothing see you are unable to grasp basic mathematical concepts: As I said, those people do not look at the mean and the standard deviation of the results (i.e. the normal distribution) but at the extreme ends of the spectrum, and they *will* see higher results with a lengthier sample.

As I said, if you have trouble understanding those terms consult with a mathematician or statistician (I'm not joking).

Perhaps if they were looking at the normal distribution of the results, we might have a reasonable debate.


----------



## WhyCry

Additional information:
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20130819PD204.html


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I guess I'll lose nothing see you are unable to grasp basic mathematical concepts: As I said, those people do not look at the mean and the standard deviation of the results (i.e. the normal distribution) but at the extreme ends of the spectrum, and they *will* see higher results with a lengthier sample.
> 
> As I said, if you have trouble understanding those terms consult with a mathematician or statistician (I'm not joking).
> 
> Perhaps if they were looking at the normal distribution of the results, we might have a reasonable debate.


Actually being that one card has been out for 2 yrs and the other a few months, exactly where do you think those numbers should be. It is still enough info to extrapolate an evident outcome. But there are so many factors that make play over time that would serve your argument better than that half baked argument that no one benches the 770, like drivers that increase performance ie: 7970 proves that. But you are barking up the wrong tree bud. Your argument is baseless.


----------



## akbisw

Couldnt care about the details. make 9950 $300 retail price and that will make me jelly.


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I guess I'll lose nothing see you are unable to grasp basic mathematical concepts: As I said, those people do not look at the mean and the standard deviation of the results (i.e. the normal distribution) but at the extreme ends of the spectrum, and they *will* see higher results with a lengthier sample.
> 
> As I said, if you have trouble understanding those terms consult with a mathematician or statistician (I'm not joking).
> 
> Perhaps if they were looking at the normal distribution of the results, we might have a reasonable debate.


ok bro



And then further consider that the 7970 has more overclocking headroom and scales better with OCs and you get a bad picture for your "argument" of people "not looking at means and only looking at extremes" (if that was true we'd be posting dirt showdown benchmarks of 7970s beating titans)


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> Nope, overclocked 7970's beat overclocked 770's. It's not really our fault if a 770 overclocked to the max is "almost stock." Locked voltage and GPU Boost for the win!


Not sure how you've come to that conclusion. It seems it all depends on the game

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/06/06/msi_n770_lightning_overclocking_review/3#.UhO7WpLXS28


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kinaesthetic*
> 
> To be fair, you are correct. But the newest MSI Afterburner allows for unlocked voltage on the GTX 770/780/Titan (the latter two I'm not 100% sure, but the GTX 770 I'm 100% sure). And its allowing the GTX 770 to have a high enough overclock to start rivaling the unlocked voltages, overclocked HD 7970s (and in some/many cases, beating them). And this is OC to death vs OC to death.


Take a look at the 680 LNG/classy(unlocked voltage) results of 1400+ core and 7000+ men, they about on par with the 1250-1350 7970s.

The 770/7970 is a wash for the most part, so in that case we are down to price. With 7970s going for $300 compared to the cheapest 770 @ $400...its a pretty clear decision.


----------



## 2010rig

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Not sure how you've come to that conclusion. It seems it all depends on the game
> 
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/06/06/msi_n770_lightning_overclocking_review/3#.UhO7WpLXS28


You should highlight the MOST important part of that review:
Quote:


> We wanted to keep this comparison fair, and at the same time give each GPU the best chance possible. The best way to do this was to do a straight down the line comparison of MSI Lightning cards. MSI produces a GeForce GTX 680 Lightning and Radeon HD 7970 Lightning, both of which we have evaluated in the past. What better comparison to make, then to compare three MSI Lightning cards?
> 
> Well, that was our plan anyway, but after our initial evaluation specifically of the Radeon HD 7970 Lightning overclock *we never really did get a good overclock on that video card. We tried again with it for this evaluation, but in today's newer and more power demanding games, our obtainable overclock was even lower than the 1190MHz overclock we got initially.* We found we had to lower it to 1150MHz to get it stable now in Crysis 3. This is simply not a good overclock on a Radeon HD 7970 GPU. We needed to be over 1.2GHz for a good overclock.
> 
> Therefore, *we sifted through our pile of cards and tested several different ones until we found one with the highest stable frequency we could get in today's games. This actually ended up being the GIGABYTE Radeon HD 7970 OC we have also evaluated.* We initially got that video card up to 1305MHz when we evaluated it. Since it was easy to use with MSI Afterburner software, and supports core voltage and memory voltage, we knew this was the video card to go with. After re-evaluating it for overclocking in today's newer, more power hungry, graphically demanding games, we found 1275MHz to be stable. This is a lot better than the MSI Radeon HD 7970 Lightning video card, and would showcase the Radeon HD 7970 with a much better overclock.


They cherry picked their best clocking 7970 in order to have a "fair review"









This goes to show that NOT *every* 7970 is an amazing overclocker like so many around here will have you believe.


----------



## natukiss

how much do you think the 9950 will cost?


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2010rig*
> 
> You should highlight the MOST important part of that review:
> They cherry picked their best clocking 7970 in order to have a "fair review"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This goes to show that NOT *every* 7970 is an amazing overclocker like so many around here will have you believe.


Wait what? I thought every 7950 and 7970 did 1300 core easily


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> Wait what? I thought every 7950 and 7970 did 1300 core easily


I don't think anyone said it was. I go with the 1209 hwbot average which is pretty close to the real thing. Mind you, all three of my 7970 lightning's do 1300+.

Also, the context of that quote above makes it sound as though the 770 they used was a good overclocker for them compared to the others they tested. I doubt a reviewer would only seek the best card of their lot for only one of the three compared cards.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2010rig*
> 
> You should highlight the MOST important part of that review: They cherry picked their best clocking 7970 in order to have a "fair review"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This goes to show that NOT *every* 7970 is an amazing overclocker like so many around here will have you believe.


at stock HD 7970 Ghz(1050 mhz) = GTX 770(1150 mhz). on avg HD 7970 overclocks lower than GTX 770. so HD 7970 at average overclocks of 1150 - 1175 mhz will trade blows with GTX 770 at 1250 - 1275 mhz and are considered on par. but once you compare a golden HD 7970 at 1.3 Ghz vs a golden GTX 770 at 1.35 ghz, the HD 7970 wins more and wins by much bigger margins.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/06/17/asus_geforce_gtx_770_directcu_ii_video_card_review/4
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/06/06/msi_n770_lightning_overclocking_review/3

Metro 2560 x 1600 Very High AAA

GTX 770(1.3 Ghz / 8 Ghz) - 50.1
HD 7970(1.275 Ghz / 6.8 Ghz ) - 47.1

Crysis 3 2560 x 1600 High Settings SMAA 2 TX

GTX 770(1.3 Ghz / 8 Ghz) - 58.1
HD 7970(1.275 Ghz / 6.8 Ghz ) - 56.1

Farcry 3 2560 x 1600 Ultra 4x MSAA

GTX 770(1.3 Ghz / 8 Ghz) - 39.4
HD 7970(1.275 Ghz / 6.8 Ghz ) - 38.8

Hitman Absolution 2560 x 1600 Ultra 4x MSAA

GTX 770(1.3 Ghz / 8 Ghz) - 50.4
HD 7970 Ghz (1.05 Ghz) - 50.1

GTX 770 best case win is Metro by 6%. HD 7970 at 1275 mhz in games like Hitman is 20% faster than GTX 770. Other games like Tombraider, Sleeping Dogs, Company of Heroes 2 also show significant margins. 10 - 30%. There are more games where HD 7970 wins and the perf gap is larger than when GTX 770 gets ahead. Also when you push for higher AA like SSAA or MSAA 4x, HD 7970 wins in more games/scenarios.

so stock HD 7970 Ghz = stock GTX 770 , avg HD 7970 OC = avg GTX 770 OC, golden HD 7970 > golden GTX 770. thats just the way it is. Tahiti is faster than GK104 clock for clock.


----------



## narmour

I am in a pickle.

Do I get a 7990, 2x7970's (which is a little bit more in price £20 more they are MSI HD 7970 GHz Twin FrozR OC BE 3072MB cards though) or do I wait for the next AMD cards? I am more concerned about price. My budget is £500 and I want best bang for buck. Is a 9xxx series card going to be able to offer such performance and longevity to make it worth while. Been meaning to upgrade my single 5870 1gb card for some time now....


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *narmour*
> 
> I am in a pickle.
> 
> Do I get a 7990, 2x7970's (which is a little bit more in price £20 more they are MSI HD 7970 GHz Twin FrozR OC BE 3072MB cards though) or do I wait for the next AMD cards? I am more concerned about price. My budget is £500 and I want best bang for buck. Is a 9xxx series card going to be able to offer such performance and longevity to make it worth while. Been meaning to upgrade my single 5870 1gb card for some time now....


I suggest you wait for the AMD HD 9970 / HD 9950 launch given that you have kept your HD 5870 for so long. there is merit in having a single GPU over a multi GPU solution. single GPU provides the smoothest and most consistent gaming experience. the expectations are that the HD 9970 is going to be a very significant improvement over HD 7970 ghz (rumours are 35 - 40% faster) . the card you should aim to get is HD 9950. It will have 256 sp disabled and the rest of the GPU will be same. When compared on a clock for clock basis HD 9950 will get close to HD 9970. but it will cost atleast 100 pounds lesser and will represent very good value.


----------



## natukiss

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raghu78*
> 
> I suggest you wait for the AMD HD 9970 / HD 9950 launch given that you have kept your HD 5870 for so long. there is merit in having a single GPU over a multi GPU solution. single GPU provides the smoothest and most consistent gaming experience. the expectations are that the HD 9970 is going to be a very significant improvement over HD 7970 ghz (rumours are 35 - 40% faster) . the card you should aim to get is HD 9950. It will have 256 sp disabled and the rest of the GPU will be same. When compared on a clock for clock basis HD 9950 will get close to HD 9970. but it will cost atleast 100 pounds lesser and will represent very good value.


any idea how much the 9950 will cost?


----------



## SkullTrail

AMD's entire advertisement campaign: it's over 9000.









Good to see they are working hard to stick it to Nvidia despite their recent financial troubles.


----------



## SkullTrail

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Kosire*
> 
> What they gonna do next year? Start over? AMD 100/200 series?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10070 = doesn't look right does it. Prob change from HD to 3D and start over.
Click to expand...

One double-O seven zero sounds awesome


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jomama22*
> 
> I don't think anyone said it was. I go with the 1209 hwbot average which is pretty close to the real thing. Mind you, all three of my 7970 lightning's do 1300+.
> 
> Also, the context of that quote above makes it sound as though the 770 they used was a good overclocker for them compared to the others they tested. I doubt a reviewer would only seek the best card of their lot for only one of the three compared cards.


I was making a joke. In a lot of the Nvidia vs amd threads the amd guys always stress that the 7950/7970 overclock so well. The article 2010 quoted seems to contradict that


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> I was making a joke. In a lot of the Nvidia vs amd threads the amd guys always stress that the 7950/7970 overclock so well. The article 2010 quoted seems to contradict that


Of course there are duds for every series of cards; there are dud 770's too.

The reviewer only mentioned that one of the 7970's he had happened to be a dud. I don't see any significance in that.


----------



## fateswarm

Usario, relative performance is absolutely unrelated to a standard deviation and a mean of a normal distribution.

But anyway, leave it. Until you learn what those words mean you'll be running in circles.


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Usario, relative performance is absolutely unrelated to a standard deviation and a mean of a normal distribution.
> 
> But anyway, leave it. Until you learn what those words mean you'll be running in circles.


Please use some common sense instead of throwing around statistical concepts then not explaining yourself and pretending to be intelligent.

Standard deviation? Doesn't matter unless there's a ridiculous outlier or two on one side which heavily skews the results; again, use some common sense and you will find that is not the case. When the difference in deviation is small it becomes negligible. Do you want to perform better in two out of three specific titles by 5% or perform better in one out of three by 15%? Arguable. Irrelevant.

Normal distribution? Who says that the results have to fit into one, and why does that matter? Let's say the results do not fit into one; I'm fairly sure they do not. I can bring up that same example again. Do you want to get 5% better fps in 12 out of 20 games or get 20% better fps in 8 out of 20 games? Highly dependent on the user, what games they play, and whether or not that 20% can make or break playability. In other words, there is no objective victor overall. Now, let's say the results for each card do fit into normal distributions. Again it becomes highly subjective. The results for one card can be much more varied than the other, with it both destroying the other card and being destroyed by the other card very often without that many close results. It's up to the user to decide based on which of these games they play the most. No objective victor once again. (Unless that scenario is not the case; then there would be an objective victor, but that would have to be the one with the higher mean performance... and that would be the HD 7970.)

Differences in standard deviation weren't that noticeable throughout most if not all reviews (if you want to argue against this that's another story; it would be completely different than just spewing "HURR MUH STANDARD DEVIATION MUH NORMAL DISTRIBUTION" and ending it with that without explaining yourself at all, though I know you're just trying to inflate your ego, defend NVIDIA in any way possible, and/or troll). We see the average difference between the cards' performance across the various titles tested. This metric gives a definite winner. And that winner is the HD 7970.

If you're trying to say that all things considered there is no objective winner and that it's dependent on what games the user plays and at what resolution, 1) everybody already knew this and 2) you could have explained yourself better if you wanted to make an actual damn argument.

I still have little idea what specific point I'm trying to disprove, because of your vague spouting of terms that I'm not even sure you understand yourself.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Usario*
> 
> Please use some common sense instead of throwing around statistical concepts then not explaining yourself and pretending to be intelligent.
> 
> Standard deviation? Doesn't matter unless there's a ridiculous outlier or two on one side which heavily skews the results; again, use some common sense and you will find that is not the case. When the difference in deviation is small it becomes negligible. Do you want to perform better in two out of three specific titles by 5% or perform better in one out of three by 15%? Arguable. Irrelevant.
> 
> Normal distribution? Who says that the results have to fit into one, and why does that matter? Let's say the results do not fit into one; I'm fairly sure they do not. I can bring up that same example again. Do you want to get 5% better fps in 12 out of 20 games or get 20% better fps in 8 out of 20 games? Highly dependent on the user, what games they play, and whether or not that 20% can make or break playability. In other words, there is no objective victor overall. Now, let's say the results for each card do fit into normal distributions. Again it becomes highly subjective. The results for one card can be much more varied than the other, with it both destroying the other card and being destroyed by the other card very often without that many close results. It's up to the user to decide based on which of these games they play the most. No objective victor once again. (Unless that scenario is not the case; then there would be an objective victor, but that would have to be the one with the higher mean performance... and that would be the HD 7970.)
> 
> Differences in standard deviation weren't that noticeable throughout most if not all reviews (if you want to argue against this that's another story; it would be completely different than just spewing "HURR MUH STANDARD DEVIATION MUH NORMAL DISTRIBUTION" and ending it with that without explaining yourself at all, though I know you're just trying to inflate your ego, defend NVIDIA in any way possible, and/or troll). We see the average difference between the cards' performance across the various titles tested. This metric gives a definite winner. And that winner is the HD 7970.
> 
> If you're trying to say that all things considered there is no objective winner and that it's dependent on what games the user plays and at what resolution, 1) everybody already knew this and 2) you could have explained yourself better if you wanted to make an actual damn argument.
> 
> I still have little idea what specific point I'm trying to disprove, because of your vague spouting of terms that I'm not even sure you understand yourself.


Agreed and good point. I think this started with 7970 having 1000s of bench values and the 770 having 200. Problem here is and quite evident that 2years worth of numbers can give a pretty accurate account of avg or mean. Granted the life of the 770 is still new and 200 may not give as accurate a figure, but one must also consider that a lot don't post because they didn't beat the 7970 again skewing the avg/mean. So Fateswarm you partly have a valid argument but it still does nothing to discredit the actual facts.


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> Agreed and good point. I think this started with 7970 having 1000s of bench values and the 770 having 200. Problem here is and quite evident that 2years worth of numbers can give a pretty accurate account of avg or mean. Granted the life of the 770 is still new and 200 may not give as accurate a figure, but one must also consider that a lot don't post because they didn't beat the 7970 again skewing the avg/mean. So Fateswarm you partly have a valid argument but it still does nothing to discredit the actual facts.


200 benchmarks is still a more than adequate sample. 1000 might make it slightly more accurate, but unless cherry picking is going on with one group (the first 200 or the next 800) or it's rigged crap where the frequency of one result continually increases as more and more results are presented (like Mitt Romney in the 2012 GOP presidential primaries) there shouldn't be a difference of more than a percent or two.


----------



## Blackops_2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> I was making a joke. In a lot of the Nvidia vs amd threads the amd guys always stress that the 7950/7970 overclock so well. The article 2010 quoted seems to contradict that


I'm inclined agree with 2010rig i honestly don't think your average 7970 will hit 1200/1650 and your 7950 1100/1500 or better, not on air at least. I would assume that most 7970s can achieve 1125/1575 or around those clocks. That's not to take away from them because they are still great overclockers, lets remember 200mhz over stock clocks on both the memory and the core is no slouch. The 770 vs 7970 argument basically ask which company do you like and how much are you willing to pay? Because they both pretty much equal each other with the 770 being more expensive at the moment.


----------



## Snuckie7

The HWBot average for 7970's on air is indeed 1208/1717 though. You can do a lot with unlocked voltage.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> The HWBot average for 7970's on air is indeed 1208/1717 though. You can do a lot with unlocked voltage.


yeah even the ref HD 7970 cards do 1125 mhz - 1150 mhz quite easily with voltage. newer HD 7970 Ghz SKUs which come clocked at 1050 mhz (sapphire hd 7970 ghz vapor-x,msi HD 7970 TF3 OC BE, HIS HD 7970 Iceq x2 Ghz) , 1100 Mhz (Gigabyte HD 7970 Ghz, ASUS HD 7970 Matrix Platinum) and 1150 Mhz ( MSI HD 7970 Lightning BE) can easily hit 1175 - 1200 mhz.


----------



## Blackops_2

Its also to remember the lightning BE is also 480$ still IIRC


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blackops_2*
> 
> Its also to remember the lightning BE is also 480$ still IIRC


you did not notice the price cuts by retailers trying to clear HD 7970 stock ? HD 7970 Lightning BE at 1150 mhz costs USD 450 same as GTX 770 Lightning(1200 mhz) for USD 450. out of the box the HD 7970 Lightning is faster for the same money

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127736
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127742


----------



## Blackops_2

I did see that most of the prices went down but last I had checked on the BE it was 479.99 450$ is still high to me honestly. I know it competes/beats the 770 I would just have a hard time dropping 400 or more on an approaching two year old card. Same goes for the 770 even though its new we've had that performance for over a year now.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blackops_2*
> 
> I did see that most of the prices went down but last I had checked on the BE it was 479.99 450$ is still high to me honestly. I know it competes/beats the 770 I would just have a hard time dropping 400 or more on an approaching two year old card. Same goes for the 770 even though its new we've had that performance for over a year now.


If someone is looking for non-reference oc cards then it is best to wait until September to see what new SKU will be out. 7970s (some oc, none of the "GHz" cards) can be had for $300 and if you are inclined to overclock, even if it only hits 1100 you still have a pretty powerful card for the money.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blackops_2*
> 
> I did see that most of the prices went down but last I had checked on the BE it was 479.99 450$ is still high to me honestly. I know it competes/beats the 770 I would just have a hard time dropping 400 or more on an approaching two year old card. Same goes for the 770 even though its new we've had that performance for over a year now.


the performance for USD 450 - 500 has not moved for a very long time (almost 21 months). This is the worst generation in terms of performance improvement over a period of 21 months. It could change with the launch of HD 9950. Hawaii looks to push perf up in a significant way at USD 400 - 600.


----------



## Vesku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blackops_2*
> 
> I'm inclined agree with 2010rig i honestly don't think your average 7970 will hit 1200/1650 and your 7950 1100/1500 or better, not on air at least. I would assume that most 7970s can achieve 1125/1575 or around those clocks. That's not to take away from them because they are still great overclockers, lets remember 200mhz over stock clocks on both the memory and the core is no slouch. The 770 vs 7970 argument basically ask which company do you like and how much are you willing to pay? Because they both pretty much equal each other with the 770 being more expensive at the moment.


My Gigabyte 7950 has a GPUz ASIC quality of something like 60% and can overclock stably past 1100MHz at 1.2V

Judging by the boost ~1GHz update for the original 7970s and 7950s defaulting to 1.25V I believe the issue is that AMD has sold/is selling some chips very near that threshold but I'd be surprised if they made up more than 1 in 20 cards.


----------



## akbisw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vesku*
> 
> My Gigabyte 7950 has a GPUz ASIC quality of something like 60% and can overclock stably past 1100MHz at 1.2V
> 
> Judging by the boost ~1GHz update for the original 7970s and 7950s defaulting to 1.25V I believe the issue is that AMD has sold/is selling some chips very near that threshold but I'd be surprised if they made up more than 1 in 20 cards.


I have gone through 3 7950s and one 7970. All Sapphire Dual X models and all of them hit 1200 core on air. 1600+ memory as well as I made sure all of them had Hynix memory before buying.


----------



## fateswarm

Usario, this is pure comedy in mathematics: "Normal distribution? Who says that the results have to fit into one"


----------



## Usario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Usario, this is pure comedy in mathematics: "Normal distribution? Who says that the results have to fit into one"


You have no idea what you're talking about and refuse to put up an actual argument or have a reasonable discussion.

Filtered.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Usario*
> 
> You have no idea what you're talking about and refuse to put up an actual argument or have a reasonable discussion.
> 
> Filtered.


/shrug

I guess him not knowing the basics of the Central Limit Theorem was too humiliating.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> /shrug
> 
> I guess him not knowing the basics of the Central Limit Theorem was too humiliating.


Now I have to side with Usario here. You are trying hard to fight the losing argument any way you can. Generally you can give good info, but this time it just seems you are just grasping at straws to win or befuddle the argument. And lately it seems to be your only motivation. So please refrain from belittling others when they refuse to continue in an argument that has no relevant outcome.


----------



## -Droid-

Does anyone know if a 250$ card will be presented in October by AMD ? Or only 9950/9970 ?

I'm asking because i'm about to buy a 760. Wouldn't want to regret it so soon lol.


----------



## TheJokers

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> Does anyone know if a 250$ card will be presented in October by AMD ? Or only 9950/9970 ?
> 
> I'm asking because i'm about to buy a 760. Wouldn't want to regret it so soon lol.


Get a 7950, check out the Online Deals section some are bellow the $200 mark!


----------



## natukiss

anyone knows how much the 9950 will cost?


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheJokers*
> 
> Get a 7950, check out the Online Deals section some are bellow the $200 mark!


Sadly most are from Newegg, which doesn't ship outside the US. Basically here in Italy the 7950 and the 760 cost the same. And i'd really want to go with Nvidia again. (found a nice non-ref OC'ed EVGA)

So i would really want to know if there's also a 9870 coming in October, or not....


----------



## Pnanasnoic

I haven't seen a recent roadmap, but I think it's only the 99xxs being released this year. I would guess that you would have to wait till the first or second quarter of 2014 for the 98xxs.


----------



## SpacemanSpliff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> Does anyone know if a 250$ card will be presented in October by AMD ? Or only 9950/9970 ?
> 
> I'm asking because i'm about to buy a 760. Wouldn't want to regret it so soon lol.


I'd hold off until the 9xxx series launches and grab a 7950 for $200 or less... the 384 bit bandwidth will come in hand within 12 months as anything running 256 is going to become outdated and throttled in the near future. Or save up until Christmas time and nab a 9950 when they have the holiday sales pricing on them.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Durquavian*
> 
> Now I have to side with Usario here. You are trying hard to fight the losing argument any way you can.


Is that an attempt on comedy? You had sided with Usario for days. I do not expect to win an argument anyway when I'm dealing with fanaticism.

I'm sorry but the statistics/mathematics works the way I said it does and you or anyone agreeing or not agreeing with it changes nothing.


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Is that an attempt on comedy? You had sided with Usario for days. I do not expect to win an argument anyway when I'm dealing with fanaticism.
> 
> I'm sorry but the statistics/mathematics works the way I said it does and you or anyone agreeing or not agreeing with it changes nothing.


My point was that it doesn't change what we have now. Even if 200 is all you got to work with it will give enough information to make a reasonable theorem. To use statistical analysis as a rebuttal doesn't change the facts. And to continue spouting the same argument when it is doing little to persuade the other parties is fruitless. I get what you are saying but still it wont change the facts as known.


----------



## davio

lets get back to discussing the topic and not bickering among each other. Anyone here keen to get a 9970 or 9950 when it comes out?


----------



## TheLAWNOOB

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *davio*
> 
> lets get back to discussing the topic and not bickering among each other. Anyone here keen to get a 9970 or 9950 when it comes out?


Not right away. I'll get a 9950 and overclock the living daylight out of it when it dips below $300, but only if it beats my 7850 and 7870 in CF.


----------



## BackwoodsNC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *davio*
> 
> lets get back to discussing the topic and not bickering among each other. Anyone here keen to get a 9970 or 9950 when it comes out?


I will pick up a 9970 if it is a good reference design. It also has to be below 700ish and be within 5% of Titan.


----------



## Robertdt

Good price, Battlefield 4 included, 25% or more performance than 7950 and I may get the 9950. Not for more than 350-400 though.


----------



## SoloCamo

Wondering how a 9950 will perform compared to my 1215core / 1650 mem 7970 ghz edition.. Probably not worth the upgrade but the free games are enticing


----------



## hatlesschimp

for me it needs to have 5 mini display ports, decent price, performance near the titan.

Also I need to confirm the multi gpu issues are fixed and the lagging monitors when in 5x eyefinity.


----------



## HanSomPa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Is that an attempt on comedy? You had sided with Usario for days. I do not expect to win an argument anyway when I'm dealing with fanaticism.
> 
> I'm sorry but the statistics/mathematics works the way I said it does and you or anyone agreeing or not agreeing with it changes nothing.


You're the only fanatic here. I took the time to read the whole argument, and I'm sorry... but even if Usario is wrong he gets point by being more civil than you. Text can carry tone over, that's why writing is considered an art. Your writing is dripping with self-importance and a huge ego. Honestly I think Usario should've just agreed to disagree simply because it's incredibly annoying to deal with people like you. Why? You'll never admit you're wrong over the Internet. You cannot allow your self-confidence bubble to pop.

Frankly I think the Nvidia car is the better buy as it has more consistent performance without doing anything. However, I can completely see the reasoning behind buying a 7970. I would not ridicule anyone making a suggestion or decision based on 7970's advantages.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hatlesschimp*
> 
> for me it needs to have 5 mini display ports, decent price, performance near the titan.
> 
> Also I need to confirm the multi gpu issues are fixed and the lagging monitors when in 5x eyefinity.


You need an aftermarket card for that for sure or you could get 2 or 3 cards to do it.
What reso are you running your monitors at? (assuming you're not using hubs and are using one DP port per monitor.)


----------



## hatlesschimp

I want 1080p at 144 hz per monitor. 5 monitor in totak in pportrait eyefinity.

Im thinking I will need 4 gpus to do it


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hatlesschimp*
> 
> I want 1080p at 144 hz per monitor. 5 monitor in totak in pportrait eyefinity.
> 
> Im thinking I will need 4 gpus to do it


If you are running 5 monitors, even at 4 cards you will get worse performance then 1 card to 1 monitor. And since sli/cfx scaling isn't near perfect, especially at 4 cards, you will be looking at a rough ride. As long as you are OK with 30-45 fps in newer games then you should be OK.


----------



## thestache

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jomama22*
> 
> If you are running 5 monitors, even at 4 cards you will get worse performance then 1 card to 1 monitor. And since sli/cfx scaling isn't near perfect, especially at 4 cards, you will be looking at a rough ride. As long as you are OK with 30-45 fps in newer games then you should be OK.


I totally disagree.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thestache*
> 
> I totally disagree.


OK....well...it is unfortunately true if you are running 5400x1920. Cranking settings down in game will obviously get you above 60, but the fact that you have to turn quality down in order to get playable fps with 4 cards is a bit disheartening. This is the reason most stick with 3 way eyefinity.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HanSomPa*
> 
> You'll never admit you're wrong over the Internet


OK, Look, there is a point that a poster's high popularity clashes with science, and this is one of them. The fact that independent tests *must* approach the normal distribution given enough samples, has been a fact of science for decades. It's being taught in schools, I hear from as low as high school lately, it is a fundamental knowledge of mathematicians from early years, and a required knowledge of any student in the world dealing even marginally with statistics. That means, all economics students, all engineering students, and so on.

So you can imagine, when I say I don't mind being "wrong" in the eyes of someone disagreeing with the facts of the central limit theorem, that I mean it. I honestly do not mind if my popularity is low for people that are unable to grasp basic realities of science.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> OK, Look, there is a point that a poster's high popularity clashes with science, and this is one of them. The fact that independent tests *must* approach the normal distribution given enough samples, has been a fact of science for decades. It's being taught in schools, I hear from as low as high school lately, it is a fundamental knowledge of mathematicians from early years, and a required knowledge of any student in the world dealing even marginally with statistics. That means, all economics students, all engineering students, and so on.
> 
> So you can imagine, when I say I don't mind being "wrong" in the eyes of someone disagreeing with the facts of the central limit theorem, that I mean it. I honestly do not mind if my popularity is low for people that are unable to grasp basic realities of science.


Repeatability is a big key factor but to do that the will have to be a standard for all measuring components which isn't there.
200 tests on a card is enough to accurately say that the results will be close to reality.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Repeatability is a big key factor but to do that the will have to be a standard for all measuring components which isn't there.
> 200 tests on a card is enough to accurately say that the results will be close to reality.


It's more than enough. My point was that they only look at the extreme ends of the distribution.

Give me a N(μ,σ^2), draw a bell curve. That's a good benchmark of benchmarks.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> It's more than enough. My point was that they only look at the extreme ends of the distribution.
> 
> Give me a N(μ,σ^2), draw a bell curve. That's a good benchmark of benchmarks.


You can't combine results that are made on different systems that would be ludicrous.
It would give a close average to where the products stand from one another but it wouldn't give accurate results per title.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> You can't combine results that are made on different systems that would be ludicrous.


Are you aware that if you do not make the assumption that the approximation is not ludicrous it is even *more* ludicrous to respect only their mean - or worse, only the extreme ends - because in that case you do not even make an *attempt* to be more analytical?

If you have a problem with a SB-E competing with an AMD, then group SB-E up to Haswell only or only up to SB-E itself, it doesn't matter, make your own groupings, but don't tell me that it is a problem with *my* idea, because not doing it is a problem with any idea.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Are you aware that if you do not make the assumption that the approximation is not ludicrous it is even *more* ludicrous to respect only their mean - or worse, only the extreme ends - because in that case you do not even make an *attempt* to be more analytical?
> 
> If you have a problem with a SB-E competing with an AMD, then group SB-E up to Haswell only or only up to SB-E itself, it doesn't matter, make your own groupings, but don't tell me that it is a problem with *my* idea, because not doing it is a problem with any idea.


It is just not how testing works, the environment variables need to be as constant as possible so you can't combine those even when running the same bench with identical hardware.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> It is just not how testing works, the environment variables need to be as constant as possible so you can't combine those even when running the same bench with identical hardware.


As I said, if you adopt such a stance how do even respect *any* benchmark? You do not debate with me at the moment, but with the entire establishment. *Nothing* is reliable, not my method, not your method of common means or extremes if you assume that unreliability.

But you're being too extreme, as I said you could isolate it in groups and improve it, e.g. the SB-Es with the SB-Es, and so on.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> As I said, if you adopt such a stance how do even respect *any* benchmark? You do not debate with me at the moment, but with the entire establishment. *Nothing* is reliable, not my method, not your method of common means or extremes if you assume that unreliability.
> 
> But you're being too extreme, as I said you could isolate it in groups and improve it, e.g. the SB-Es with the SB-Es, and so on.


Use benchmarks made on the same machine by the same site that is as close as you can get.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> Sadly most are from Newegg, which doesn't ship outside the US. Basically here in Italy the 7950 and the 760 cost the same. And i'd really want to go with Nvidia again. (found a nice non-ref OC'ed EVGA)
> 
> So i would really want to know if there's also a 9870 coming in October, or not....


HD 7950 is faster than GTX 760. the HD 7950 boost cards come clocked at 925 - 1000 mhz . clock for clock HD 7950 is 5 - 7% slower than HD 7970. HD 7950 boost cards can easily overclock to 1100 - 1150 mhz and at those speeds performance matches HD 7970 ghz.

HD 7950(1150 mhz) is faster than GTX 760(1280 mhz)
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/07/02/msi_n760_tf_2gd5oc_gtx_760_overclocking_review/5

in fact given that a HD 7950 has 3GB VRAM it would be better than a hypothetical HD 9870 which would be a improved Pitcairn. maybe 1920 - 2048 sp running at 1.1 ghz with 256 bit memory at 7 Gbps(224 Gb/s) with 2GB VRAM. with next gen consoles launching very soon 2GB is just not enough at 1080p .


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Use benchmarks made on the same machine by the same site that is as close as you can get.


That extremist view makes statistics even MORE unreliable. You are completely discarding ALL comparisons between people doing reviews and you embrace ALL bias one may have shown on the same system for a brand.

I'm sorry but if it was logical to discard comparisons like that the whole science of statistics would be unneeded. We could declare all discrepancies are CRITICAL and only look at our own little worlds of a single test.

There are more realistic approaches: Finding good samples, from relatively comparable sources, calculating an approximation, stating the margin of error and going on like that. No reason to be extremist.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> *That extremist view makes statistics even MORE unreliable. You are completely discarding ALL comparisons between people doing reviews and you embrace ALL bias one may have shown on the same system for a brand.
> *
> I'm sorry but if it was logical to discard comparisons like that the whole science of statistics would be unneeded. We could declare all discrepancies are CRITICAL and only look at our own little worlds of a single test.
> 
> There are more realistic approaches: Finding good samples, from relatively comparable sources, calculating an approximation, stating the margin of error and going on like that. No reason to be extremist.


You were the one stating we couldn't just compare results which is true then I gave my knowledge on measuring as a physicist.
Since saying we can compare results from different systems or even different scenes from a bench is like saying dumb American/British units like mile, yard and inch to be compared to SI based measuring without conversion. (not that there are any real scientists that use non SI measuring)


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raghu78*
> 
> HD 7950 is faster than GTX 760. the HD 7950 boost cards come clocked at 925 - 1000 mhz . clock for clock HD 7950 is 5 - 7% slower than HD 7970. HD 7950 boost cards can easily overclock to 1100 - 1150 mhz and at those speeds performance matches HD 7970 ghz.
> 
> HD 7950(1150 mhz) is faster than GTX 760(1280 mhz)
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/07/02/msi_n760_tf_2gd5oc_gtx_760_overclocking_review/5
> 
> in fact given that a HD 7950 has 3GB VRAM it would be better than a hypothetical HD 9870 which would be a improved Pitcairn. maybe 1920 - 2048 sp running at 1.1 ghz with 256 bit memory at 7 Gbps(224 Gb/s) with 2GB VRAM. with next gen consoles launching very soon 2GB is just not enough at 1080p .


I have to disagree. Take a look at this link , you'll see the 2GB 760 HAWK is already slightly better than a stock 7970, plus you can further overclock it . I don't think the 7950 will fully utilize the 3GB (apart from a few games), it's going to run out of juice before that.

In your benchmark the 7950 just edges the 760, i'm fine with losing 2FPS and going with Nvidia. (given that benchmark is 100% correct, as you see techpowerup disagrees)

Plus:
- i don't want to deal with AMD drivers, have gone through enough **** with SLI, and microsttutering on a single card does not excite me at all (yeah they reduced that with new drivers, but nvidia is much better at this)
-760 is a "newer" card (which will give me better resale value)
-nvidia's better resale value
-always had nvidia cards
-can eventually go SLI, which is so much more efficient than Crossfire. (take in consideration microframes, min FPS etc., not just average FPS)

Not a fanboy, but i prefer nvidia, and from what i see the 7950 and 760 are pretty much equal, so it looks like an easy choice.

What is your opinion ?


----------



## Mopar63

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> There are more realistic approaches: Finding good samples, from relatively comparable sources, calculating an approximation, stating the margin of error and going on like that. No reason to be extremist.


The ONLY benchmark that counts is actually using the card. I do not care what a frame rate indicator or some t tells me. I want to know can it play my games smooth. If it does then all the benchmarking in the world is meaningless to me. Benchmarks are good for whipping out your epeen but at the end of the day the usage experience much more important than clinical numbers.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> Plus:
> - i don't want to deal with AMD drivers, have gone through enough **** with SLI, and microsttutering on a single card does not excite me at all (yeah they reduced that with new drivers, but nvidia is much better at this)
> -760 is a "newer" card (which will give me better resale value)
> -nvidia's better resale value
> -always had nvidia cards
> -can eventually go SLI, which is so much more efficient than Crossfire. (take in consideration microframes, min FPS etc., not just average FPS)
> 
> Not a fanboy, but i prefer nvidia, and from what i see the 7950 and 760 are pretty much equal, so it looks like an easy choice. What is your opinion ?


hardocp does actual gameplay benchmarking and the cards have been compared at max OC.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/07/02/msi_n760_tf_2gd5oc_gtx_760_overclocking_review/5

even in TWIMTBP title like Metro Last Light HD 7950 OC(1150 mhz) edges out GTX 760 OC(1280 Mhz).but in a AMD GE title like Tombraider HD 7950 OC crushes GTX 760 OC by 25%. the same kind of perf diff exists in games like Sleeping Dogs, Hitman, Company of Heroes 2 especially with SSAA.

HD 7970 and HD 7950 compete with GTX 770/ GTX 680 and GTX 670. this is a well known fact. GTX 670 and HD 7950 have 87.5% of the shaders as their full counterparts. GTX 760 has 75% of the shaders of GTX 770 / GTX 680. so its upto you to decide what you want.

also CF frame pacing driver has improved multi GPU smoothness. phase 1 driver for DX11/DX10 games is released. phase 2 for DX9/OpenGL games is due next month. If you want you can run an opinion poll and get feedback on HD 7950 vs GTX 760. mention the specific models you intend to purchase. goodluck


----------



## lugal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> What is your opinion ?


- nvidia does not have better drivers, nor they have less microstutter, actually nvidia drivers are worse than amd drivers these days (I had the first had experience with 320s drivers), only nvidia is much better at damage control
- 760 wont have better resale value because it is weaker card with loltastic vram amount
- it is irelevant what cards you had before (except you are fanboy)
- sli isnt more efficient than crossfire

My opinion is that you are a victim of nvidias marketing and you should reconsider your choice if you want to get the most for your money, because hd7950 is indeed better card considering performance, vram, gpgpu or bundled games. Imo its best price/performance card right now (and same is true for 7950 cfx that beats 950€ titan for 416€).


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raghu78*
> 
> hardocp does actual gameplay benchmarking and the cards have been compared at max OC.
> 
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/07/02/msi_n760_tf_2gd5oc_gtx_760_overclocking_review/5
> 
> even in TWIMTBP title like Metro Last Light HD 7950 OC(1150 mhz) edges out GTX 760 OC(1280 Mhz).but in a AMD GE title like Tombraider HD 7950 OC crushes GTX 760 OC by 25%. the same kind of perf diff exists in games like Sleeping Dogs, Hitman, Company of Heroes 2 especially with SSAA.
> 
> HD 7970 and HD 7950 compete with GTX 770/ GTX 680 and GTX 670. this is a well known fact. GTX 670 and HD 7950 have 87.5% of the shaders as their full counterparts. GTX 760 has 75% of the shaders of GTX 770 / GTX 680. so its upto you to decide what you want.
> 
> also CF frame pacing driver has improved multi GPU smoothness. phase 1 driver for DX11/DX10 games is released. phase 2 for DX9/OpenGL games is due next month. If you want you can run an opinion poll and get feedback on HD 7950 vs GTX 760. mention the specific models you intend to purchase. goodluck


The 7950 is better in Tomb Raider because the TressFX (useless stuff) is on, turn that off and you'll have the same performance from both the cards (or very close). There is NOT a 25% performance difference in games like Hitman, Sleeping Dogs, not even close. Actually the 7950 loses to the stock 760 in Sleeping Dogs. (tech power up, same link)

You make the error of counting shaders, VRAM to justify one card over another. The architectures are different, and in the end what matters is the actual performance and even more the smoothness a card can deliver (microsttutering, min FPS). With both stock cards, the 760 is faster, overclocked the 7950 wins by a small margin in 2-3 games but take a look at MIN FPS, way lower for the AMD card, that will mess up with your experience, not the 1 more average FPS the 7950 card gets.

Also remember that there is no guarantee that your card, be it a 7950 or 760 will reach those frequencies, meanwhile it's a sure thing that a stock 760 will beat a stock 7950. (your link, page 4)

(It looks like that 760 is factory overclocked, i assume the 7950 Boost also comes already overclocked?)


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lugal*
> 
> - nvidia does not have better drivers, nor they have less microstutter, actually nvidia drivers are worse than amd drivers these days (I had the first had experience with 320s drivers), only nvidia is much better at damage control
> - 760 wont have better resale value because it is weaker card with loltastic vram amount
> - it is irelevant what cards you had before (except you are fanboy)
> - sli isnt more efficient than crossfire
> 
> My opinion is that you are a victim of nvidias marketing and you should reconsider your choice if you want to get the most for your money, because hd7950 is indeed better card considering performance, vram, gpgpu or bundled games. Imo its best price/performance card right now (and same is true for 7950 cfx that beats 950€ titan for 416€).


-since when are 2GB loltastic amounts of vram ? That's news to me. VRAM means nothing if it isn't backed up by some actual horspower, you should know that. The 3GB are useful on the 7970, on the 7950 not so much. The 760 is not in any way weaker than the 7950, actually take a look at some of the benchmarks i've posted (or those from hardocp) the AMD card LOSES to the 760.
-it is relevant to me, never had a problem with single cards.
-yes SLI is more efficient than crossfire, take a look at a few benchmarks, search for MIN FPS and
microstuttering numbers. Don't be a victim of AVG FPS.
-nvidia brand is much more popular than AMD.
-you're actually telling me a card with the same performance but 1 year old and from AMD will sell better than a 760 lol.
YOU look like a fanboy to me, frankly.


----------



## lugal

Obvious victim of nvidia marketing is obvious. Do whatever you want. Anyway, why would you even care that in reality you got overall worse card for more money, when you can convince yourself that you have better card just by cherrypicking some benchamarks and ignoring facts.


----------



## -Droid-

The fact that i don't agree with you does not make me a fanboy. The fact that you counter my arguments without providing any proof whatsoever and accusing me to be a fanboy, that makes YOU a fanboy.

I took the first benchmarks google offered me, how is that cherrypicking ? Did i also cherrypicked the Hardocp review that raghu78 posted here ? You're delusional, my friend.

You want to sustain something, bring proof. If the situation exceeds your knowledge, take a step back. It's frustrating when i bring proof and explain my points and some smartass comes, ignores everything and shouts "FANBOY!", just because his beloved brand is losing.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> -since when are 2GB loltastic amounts of vram ? That's news to me. VRAM means nothing if it isn't backed up by some actual horspower, you should know that. The 3GB are useful on the 7970, on the 7950 not so much. The 760 is not in any way weaker than the 7950, actually take a look at some of the benchmarks i've posted (or those from hardocp) the AMD card LOSES to the 760.
> -it is relevant to me, never had a problem with single cards.
> -yes SLI is more efficient than crossfire, take a look at a few benchmarks, search for MIN FPS and
> microstuttering numbers. Don't be a victim of AVG FPS.
> -nvidia brand is much more popular than AMD.
> -you're actually telling me a card with the same performance but 1 year old and from AMD will sell better than a 760 lol.
> YOU look like a fanboy to me, frankly.


The 760 is a GK104 rebrand so it is actually about as old as that 7950 we're discusing.
The 7950 is the better card in every single way here on OCN except for Cuda intensive applications without decent openCL backbone.
The 760 is gimped on compute and on voltage greenlight is in full efect on it.
I own a GTX570 but it will be my last Nvidia card until they start making decent cards for a decent price again doesn't make me a fanboy just a smart consumer.

Nvidia's brand is more popular that is indeed a fact but Nvidia's future is a bit cloudy since their Tegra SoC aren't in demand at least not for the price they ask and without a foothold in mobile/ultra portable they are missing a lot of money.
If it wasn't for their brand loyalists, consumer communications and their enterprise market(the Tesla supercomputers) it would go bust.


----------



## -Droid-

That's why i wrote new with quotes. Keep in mind that we are the 1%, when i'm going to sell it on ebay with 100€ two years from now, 95% of my potential clients won't know this fact, so that's not a major concern for me.

I have 5 tabs opened from different major review websites, both cards take edge in some games. I don't see the 7950 being "better in any single way" . Maybe you should check other sites as well, not only OCN ?

The voltage is not relevant, both cards, when overclocked heavily, have the same performance.

I don't see Nvidia dying any time soon, AMD managed to survive when Nvidia was dominating, so it can happen the other way around if this ever happens. AMD did gain momentum with the PS4/X1 deal, thought.

So from a smart consumer point of view, what i'm losing here ? Perfomance is equal(seems like the 760 is better actually) , price is equal(here in Italy, remember), SLI is preferable over CF, perf when OC'ed is about the same, probably better resale value from NV. I don't frankly see what i could ever lose by going Nvidia over AMD. At max, they are equal and then it comes down to preference, but to say the 7950 is better in ever way or destroys the 760 is non-sense.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> That's why i wrote new with quotes. Keep in mind that we are the 1%, when i'm going to sell it on ebay with 100€ two years from now, 95% of my potential clients won't know this fact, so that's not a major concern for me.
> 
> I have 5 tabs opened from different major review websites, both cards take edge in some games. I don't see the 7950 being "better in any single way" . Maybe you should check other sites as well, not only OCN ?
> 
> The voltage is not relevant, both cards, when overclocked heavily, have the same performance.
> 
> I don't see Nvidia dying any time soon, AMD managed to survive when Nvidia was dominating, so it can happen the other way around if this ever happens. AMD did gain momentum with the PS4/X1 deal, thought.


these are facts which you can verify anywhere on the web or ocn. its a well known fact that HD 7950 is 5 - 7% slower than HD 7970.

HD 7970 Ghz = GTX 770 (they trade blows depending on game but on average are par)
HD 7950(1125 mhz) = HD 7970 Ghz.
HD 7950(1 Ghz ) = HD 7970(925 mhz)

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/59265-his-hd-7970-iceq-x-hd-7950-iceq-x-review-14.html

remember the HD 7950 found in reviews runs at 800 mhz. even the HD 7950 boost found in reviews is throttled badly due to power control of 0% and does not run consistently at 925 mhz max boost. the HD 7950 boost cards come at 925 - 1000 mhz boost clocks and will run at those speeds with power control at +20%. once they do the above mentioned results hold. HD 7950(1125 Mhz) = HD 7970 Ghz

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/61844-nvidia-gtx-760-2gb-review-14.html

GTX 760 struggles to match GTX 770 in the most demanding games even at extreme OC . so you can believe what you want to.


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *raghu78*
> 
> these are facts which you can verify anywhere on the web or ocn. its a well known fact that HD 7950 is 5 - 7% slower than HD 7970.
> 
> HD 7970 Ghz = GTX 770 (they trade blows depending on game but on average are par)
> HD 7950(1125 mhz) = HD 7970 Ghz.
> HD 7950(1 Ghz ) = HD 7970(925 mhz)
> 
> http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/59265-his-hd-7970-iceq-x-hd-7950-iceq-x-review-14.html
> 
> remember the HD 7950 found in reviews runs at 800 mhz. even the HD 7950 boost found in reviews is throttled badly due to power control of 0% and does not run consistently at 925 mhz max boost. the HD 7950 boost cards come at 925 - 1000 mhz boost clocks and will run at those speeds with power control at +20%. once they do the above mentioned results hold. HD 7950(1125 Mhz) = HD 7970 Ghz
> 
> http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/61844-nvidia-gtx-760-2gb-review-14.html
> 
> GTX 760 struggles to match GTX 770 in the most demanding games even at extreme OC . so you can believe what you want to.


C'mon, really ? You post benchmarks from different games at different resolutions and then draw this dubious conclusions ? Take a look at this, OC 760 surpassing both 770 and 7970.

Also here, from a good range of games,ONLY FACTORY OC 760 already above 7970.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> The voltage is not relevant, both cards, when overclocked heavily, have the same performance.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. GTX 760's simply cannot compete with higher clocked 7950's because of this.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> C'mon, really ? You post benchmarks from different games at different resolutions and then draw this dubious conclusions ? Take a look at this, OC 760 surpassing both 770 and 7970.
> Also here, from a good range of games,ONLY FACTORY OC 760 already above 7970.


you did not consider hardocp review comparing both GTX 760 OC and HD 7950 OC ? there is a hell of a lot info on ocn and web.. if you want to be naive and fool yourself into believing that GTX 760 competes with HD 7950 go ahead. here is another HD 7950 OC review

http://www.legionhardware.com/articles_pages/his_7970_iceq_xsup2_ghz_edition_7950_iceq_xsup2_boost_clock,13.html

see the highest HD 7950 and GTX 760 scores and you will get an idea

http://www.overclock.net/t/1360884/official-top-30-unigine-valley-benchmark-1-0
http://www.overclock.net/t/1235557/official-top-30-heaven-benchmark-4-0-scores


----------



## AlDyer

Droid go home you're drunk. My 7950 @1300 core and 1600 mem beats the 770 without breaking a sweat


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lugal*
> 
> - nvidia does not have better drivers, nor they have less microstutter, actually nvidia drivers are worse than amd drivers these days (I had the first had experience with 320s drivers), only nvidia is much better at damage control
> - 760 wont have better resale value because it is weaker card with loltastic vram amount
> - it is irelevant what cards you had before (except you are fanboy)
> - sli isnt more efficient than crossfire
> 
> My opinion is that you are a victim of nvidias marketing and you should reconsider your choice if you want to get the most for your money, because hd7950 is indeed better card considering performance, vram, gpgpu or bundled games. Imo its best price/performance card right now (and same is true for 7950 cfx that beats 950€ titan for 416€).


Discussion should have ended right here tbh.

Regarding single card frametimes, it's a wash in the best case scenario for Nvidia.

http://us.hardware.info/reviews/3991/2/amd-radeon-hd-7970-ghz-edition-vs-nvidia-geforce-gtx-680-frametimes-review-assassins-creed-iii


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlDyer*
> 
> Droid go home you're drunk. My 7950 @1300 core and 1600 mem beats the 770 without breaking a sweat


First use your brain, then your keyboard. Always remember that.

First, those are not my benchmarks, go bark at techpowerup. Second i was responding to some other guy claiming that an overclocked 760 can't keep up with the 770. In fact it can, and can actually perform better.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. GTX 760's simply cannot compete with higher clocked 7950's because of this.


From the Hardocp review i see at max 2-3 FPS of difference in avg fps. How high does the 7950 overclock (Hardocp has it at 1150), a normal random sample, not a 1/10000 card ?


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> First use your brain, then your keyboard. Always remember that.
> 
> First, those are not my benchmarks, go bark at techpowerup. Second i was responding to some other guy claiming that an overclocked 760 can't keep up with the 770. In fact it can, and can actually perform better.
> From the Hardocp review i see at max 2-3 FPS of difference in avg fps. How high does the 7950 overclock (Hardocp has it at 1150), a normal random sample, not a 1/10000 card ?


I think you may have forgotten what you were responding to. You claimed that voltage control doesn't make a difference, but it is in fact one of the most significant differences. The overclocked 760 in the HardOCP review at nearly 1300MHz? That's about as high as it's ever going to clock. The 7950 at 1150 on the other hand, is a completely average overclock, and can continue to scale with voltage. I'm looking at the top 3DMark Fire Strike scores, and that's exactly the case. The 760's max out around 1300MHz, and barely match my 7950 at 1000MHz, so all the 7950's that clock higher, score higher.


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> First use your brain, then your keyboard. Always remember that.
> 
> First, those are not my benchmarks, go bark at techpowerup. Second i was responding to some other guy claiming that an overclocked 760 can't keep up with the 770. In fact it can, and can actually perform better.
> From the Hardocp review i see at max 2-3 FPS of difference in avg fps. How high does the 7950 overclock (Hardocp has it at 1150), a normal random sample, not a 1/10000 card ?


droid i think you need to read a lot more reviews and information. tpu is not the only site benching and they have probably the worst benchmarking methodology. they do not mention the level or exact game scene being tested like hardocp or post a video of the test scene like hardwarecanucks / techreport do. there are no fraps/fcat frametime benchmarks. they also use in game benchmarks in many games instead of actual gameplay benchmarking.

as for GTX 760 OC matching GTX 770 its far from true . BF3 is not the only game. look at others.

3DMark 2013

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_gtx_760_msi_hawk_review,25.html

http://www.legitreviews.com/msi-n760-hawk-video-card-review_2253/9
http://www.legitreviews.com/msi-n760-hawk-video-card-review_2253/13

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/06/17/asus_geforce_gtx_770_directcu_ii_video_card_review/4#.Uhutf3_3x8E
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/07/09/gigabyte_gtx_760_oc_version_video_card_review/4

Metro Last Light 1920 x 1200 AAA Very High quality PhysX enabled

GTX 770 OC(1.3 Ghz) - 72.6
GTX 770 - 62.6
GTX 680 - 59.0
GTX 760 OC(1.3 Ghz) - 53.1


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snuckie7*
> 
> I think you may have forgotten what you were responding to. You claimed that voltage control doesn't make a difference, but it is in fact one of the most significant differences. The overclocked 760 in the HardOCP review at nearly 1300MHz? That's about as high as it's ever going to clock. The 7950 at 1150 on the other hand, is a completely average overclock, and can continue to scale with voltage. I'm looking at the top 3DMark Fire Strike scores, and that's exactly the case. The 760's max out around 1300MHz, and barely match my 7950 at 1000MHz, so all the 7950's that clock higher, score higher.


If it can go much higher, that's only a good thing. The Hardocp was given to me as an example of how better the 7950. Effectively looking at the numbers it didn't impress me much, but if it can reach higher clocks then everything adds up.

Also i'm looking for a card to keep for 1-2 years, not throw away after 1 week, so benchmark results are relevant yes, but i'm looking to stay on the safe side. You see, with 760 there is no danger, i can achieve that clock without risking, question is, how much higher can the 7950 go and also last me about 2 years ?


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> If it can go much higher, that's only a good thing. The Hardocp was given to me as an example of how better the 7950. Effectively looking at the numbers it didn't impress me much, but if it can reach higher clocks then everything adds up.
> 
> Also i'm looking for a card to keep for 1-2 years, not throw away after 1 week, so benchmark results are relevant yes, but i'm looking to stay on the safe side. You see, with 760 there is no danger, i can achieve that clock without risking, question is, how much higher can the 7950 go and also last me about 2 years ?


You'll have bigger things to worry about in 2 years time, such as VRAM, or memory bandwidth.


----------



## -Droid-

Yeah but if the cards dies on me i'll have to go and spend another 200€. I mean "last" as in "not die", not actual performance.

How does this one overclock, is the cooling any good ?

Also, completely derailing the thread, but the guys before me arguing about review methodology aren't much better


----------



## Snuckie7

It is incredibly difficult to outright kill a card if you stay within the software limits for voltage, as long as you're not stressing the card 24/7.

Overclocking is nearly entirely dependent on the silicon you get; I'm not denying that you could get a card that doesn't OC at all, but it's the same thing with any GPU.

That HIS model does have the best cooler you can get on a 7950 though.


----------



## Darklyric

Looks decent how much are 760s where you're at? Honestly what the prices are is the biggest thing about buying either card (if you are not mining). If your mining the 7950 all the way or vice versa if you need cuda acceleration or any other niv features obviously the 760.

Personally i would get the 7950 if prices are about = since it can make you $$$ and the nivida card can only fold or game. Also there is dud 7950s but that one has decent vrms and a nice cooler so you should be ok even if it is a dud since you can overvolt and still run on air.

My 2 7950s (sapphire vapor-x) for gaming hit 1350 mem and 1250core but for mining at 1.1vcore only hit 1140core and 1500mem with < 70c temps mining and <61c gaming in cf on the top card. Micro shutter is still more than nivdias but they have made it unnoticeable to me in almost every game.

My experience and







and yours may vary but either way you cant fault someone for going 760/7950 or 7950/760.


----------



## -Droid-

God why isn't this easier









This is what i'm looking at:

http://www.bpm-power.com/it/product/1111829/scheda_video_ati_his_hd7950_iceq_x2_boost_clock_3gb_pci_express_3_0_h795qmc3g2m_h795qmc3g2m.html

http://www.bpm-power.com/it/product/1202487/scheda_video_nvidia_evga_gtx_760_sc_acx_cooler_2gb_02g-p4-2765-kr.html

The EVGA is already much better clocked, and has a 3 year warranty. But the 7950 can _potentially_ go higher and deliver better performance.

@Darklyric, you're saying the 7950 isn't stable at 1250 while folding ?


----------



## Darklyric

Nice case first off and i like the gigabyte 760s better than evga but thats just because of the cooler. Are they similarly priced?


----------



## -Droid-

NV 217 vs AMD 225, no Gigabyte for the 760, only the 4GB version.


----------



## Darklyric

bah yea itll never use more than 2.5gb or so scratch that. Like ii said im kinda of biased for 7950s because they make $$ for mew but the 760 is a great gamer/clocker from the looks of it. If you're not mining go with it since its cheaper.

+1 vote his 7950


----------



## -Droid-

No i'm not going to mine with it.


----------



## Darklyric

760 then (not an evga guy but they are good) or roll the dice and get the 7950 which could be faster with a good oc.

I think the worst non ref cooler 7950 card ive seen was like 1050 core and that would beat or be = to that 760(stock) so keep that in mind and gl at the loto:thumb:


----------



## HeadlessKnight

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> No i'm not going to mine with it.


IMO. From your posts you seem to like Nvidia. If you want my advice go to where you are more confident, so you don't end up with buyers remorse.
People say the 7950 is faster, but if you are more confident with GTX 760, then get the GTX 760. Every card has its strength and weaknesses. Both are solid cards







.


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeadlessKnight*
> 
> IMO. From your posts you seem to like Nvidia. If you want my advice go to where you are more confident, so you don't end up with buyers remorse.
> People say the 7950 is faster, but if you are more confident with GTX 760, then get the GTX 760. Every card has its strength and weaknesses. Both are solid cards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Exactly this. If you prefer a brand, you are going to possible find issues that result in buyers remorse by going with another brand.


----------



## Snuckie7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeadlessKnight*
> 
> IMO. From your posts you seem to like Nvidia. If you want my advice go to where you are more confident, so you don't end up with buyers remorse.
> People say the 7950 is faster, but if you are more confident with GTX 760, then get the GTX 760. Every card has its strength and weaknesses. Both are solid cards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


A good point, but that buyers remorse can easily go either way.

I was in a similar position myself about a year ago. It was between the HD 7950 and the GTX 660Ti/670 back then, and I was also pretty heavily biased towards Nvidia, having never owned an AMD/ATi card before. I really didn't like what Nvidia was doing with GK104, GPU Boost, and Greenlight, so I gave AMD a shot. Needless to say, the 7950 has been one of the best cards I've ever owned.


----------



## -Droid-

Thank you guys, buyers remorse will be far worse if i went AMD and didn't like it









I think i found a winner ?
http://www.e-key.it/prod-vga-gigabyte-nvidia-geforce-gtx-760-windforce-3x-20-core-10851150mhz-memory-gddr5-6008mhz-2gb-dvi-hdmi-dp-39118.htm


----------



## criminal

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> Thank you guys, buyers remorse will be far worse if i went AMD and didn't like it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think i found a winner ?
> http://www.e-key.it/prod-vga-gigabyte-nvidia-geforce-gtx-760-windforce-3x-20-core-10851150mhz-memory-gddr5-6008mhz-2gb-dvi-hdmi-dp-39118.htm


Good choice. The guys over in the GTX760 thread have been getting great overclocks with that card.


----------



## -Droid-

Well this is it then









Man, last time was much easier, these 460's crushed the 450€ 480 in 2010. Keep in mind i was upgrading from a 8800GTS 512(mindblowing stuff), not that much of an upgrade this time, but i want to keep up with the wave of next gen games coming next year.

Thanks guys for the answers.


----------



## Darklyric

Grats those are one of the best 760s from what i've seen.







You honestly cant go wrong with either card unless you have some specific sw/apps that are optimized for one or the other only.


----------



## davio

We're off topic, back to the new AMD series, not nvidia.

I will probably CF 7950's if the price is right, or a single 9950. It will be a good month, cant wait to see them come out.


----------



## AddictedGamer93

Buying three on launch day. I have no doubts they will at least match the 780.


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AddictedGamer93*
> 
> Buying three on launch day. I have no doubts they will at least match the 780.


With the rumored pricing of 599.99 i think they'll be a tad slower then the 780. If it was faster then the 780 they'd price it higher


----------



## Blackops_2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> With the rumored pricing of 599.99 i think they'll be a tad slower then the 780. If it was faster then the 780 they'd price it higher


I'd rather see it at 500-550 if it's not going to match/exceed the 780. Though more interesting will be how well it OCs. If they come out of the gate clocked conservatively like the 7970 was it could be very interesting.

Puft your sig is such a troll







lol


----------



## Yvese

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> With the rumored pricing of 599.99 i think they'll be a tad slower then the 780. If it was faster then the 780 they'd price it higher


Not really.

Nvidia priced the 680 at $499 at launch despite the 7970 being $549. Performance favored the 680 at the time.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> With the rumored pricing of 599.99 i think they'll be a tad slower then the 780. If it was faster then the 780 they'd price it higher


I see that speculated a lot but it's most probably wrong, or at least it's expressed with the wrong way of thinking. The price of 780 is largely supply driven, not just demand driven. i.e. It's expensive to be produced. It takes about double space on a wafer compared to a regular die and it is a more novel design with more failuires so it should cost more than double to produce.

Hence, if AMD will not drop the price will not do it because demand will allow it but because they may be forced, just as NVIDIA, due to manufacturing high cost, so that's what I meant the result may be the same but the reason it happens that way may be different.

Similarly if AMD drops the price for the same performance will mean either that they made a better design for the technology (doubtful, both NVIDIA and AMD are good designers early in the process node) or that TSMC only now dropped the prices further, or that AMD is actually taking a gamble with a loss for a market share (I doubt it with their cash problems).


----------



## Stay Puft

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> I see that speculated a lot but it's most probably wrong, or at least it's expressed with the wrong way of thinking. The price of 780 is largely supply driven, not just demand driven. i.e. It's expensive to be produced. It takes about double space on a wafer compared to a regular die and it is a more novel design with more failuires so it should cost more than double to produce.
> 
> Hence, if AMD will not drop the price will not do it because demand will allow it but because they may be forced, just as NVIDIA, due to manufacturing high cost, so that's what I meant the result may be the same but the reason it happens that way may be different.
> 
> Similarly if AMD drops the price for the same performance will mean either that they made a better design for the technology (doubtful, both NVIDIA and AMD are good designers early in the process node) or that TSMC only now dropped the prices further, or that AMD is actually taking a gamble with a loss for a market share (I doubt it with their cash problems).


The 780's price is driven by the fact that Amd has nothing faster then the 7970 to complete against it. Its not a supply thing. Nvidia has tons of these defective chips they bin as 780's


----------



## Stormscion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stay Puft*
> 
> The 780's price is driven by the fact that Amd has nothing faster then the 7970 to complete against it. Its not a supply thing. Nvidia has tons of these defective chips they bin as 780's


also it is giant chip


----------



## Rar4f

What will the price for 9950 be. Anyone have a clue on that?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rar4f*
> 
> What will the price for 9950 be. Anyone have a clue on that?


Well we can't really speculate until we know if they go rebrand or what the new card will be performing like.


----------



## TiezZ BE

we can speculate anyway but it's a waste of time right now imo, need more info about them


----------



## MoMann

Is this rumor still true? Are they still suppose to be coming out in october?


----------



## erocker

Though it's not any kind of confirmation, I recently heard Chris Roberts (Dev. Chief for Star Citizen) mention in an interview during Gamescon that AMD has new graphics cards coming in October.


----------



## MoMann

Ok so this rumor is still the most valid one then. Good that what I wanted to know thanks.


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MoMann*
> 
> Is this rumor still true? Are they still suppose to be coming out in october?


There is an absolute confirmation by AMD itself they will announce something on the Volcanic Island GPUs (explicitly that and that information only as I say it) in a tech day in September 25. This is not from their website but by two journalists that published a direct AMD confirmation. i.e. we should accept it as obviously true unless they want to destroy their credibility completely.

Now, reality is, *everything else* is unconfirmed. October is just "most likely" because that's what people expect from the historical record about such tech days. That means there is still a probability it will not be October or that it may not be 2013 at all and it will be 20nm! Then, the specs are much worse than that. At least half of them published are absolute speculation. Some are simply laughable.

e.g. Look at this URL. Semiaccurate exposes that a ton of "sources" blindly copy whatever they see. In this case they copied a *hypothesis* of someone in a forum as "news". Zero fact checking.

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/05/20/amds-volcanic-islands-architecture/


----------



## xoleras

Oh here we go again with fateswarm being offended at RUMORS being in the RUMORS forum. He is also completely oblivious to history with prior GPU leaks. HE is new on OCN, after all.









Most of the leaks with the GTX 680 were correct. As they were with the 7970. But, don't let that stop you from being offended. It's not like this is a forum dedicated to rumors. I have no idea *** people are expecting, rumors certainly don't belong in a rumors forum..


----------



## fateswarm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xoleras*
> 
> Oh here we go again with fateswarm being offended at RUMORS being in the RUMORS forum. He is also completely oblivious to history with prior GPU leaks. HE is new on OCN, after all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the leaks with the GTX 680 were correct. As they were with the 7970. But, don't let that stop you from being offended. It's not like this is a forum dedicated to rumors. I have no idea *** people are expecting, rumors certainly don't belong in a rumors forum..


Offended? Are *you* offended? You seem to have a quest to prove that it's unimportant to expose *bad journalism*.


----------



## fateswarm

Also read this about your precious "reliable" sources:
Quote:


> Much of the tech press doesn't seem to understand much in the way of technology they cover in a fundamental way. Sadly, they also do not seem to fact check before publication, much less second source information before publication.
> 
> The most recent example of this is a listing of AMD's Volcanic Islands architecture that is making the rounds. Here are a few of the sites that have discovered this "scoop".
> 
> Xbit Labs
> 
> Wccftech
> 
> Tomshardware
> 
> Hardware.info
> 
> You might have noticed that this "scoop" did not appear on SemiAccurate's front page, but it did appear in our forums in the fall of 2012. The person who made the image was SemiAccurate's own Leo Yim, and he made it then and posted it to illustrate a discussion he was having last fall.
> 
> We asked him about it and his response was one of surprise more than anything else. "I thought I made myself clear that I was just illustrating a point in transistor scaling from 28 nm to 20 nm when I first posted the image on the forums: http://www.semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168728&postcount=7″
> 
> So what we have is an illustration to go with a forum post from last fall that was discovered by tech sites. These technology "news" sites all appear to have taken an image from a random Flicker site, now pulled to avoid more stupidity, that was not claimed to be real by the author, not meant to look like an official AMD slide in any way, and explicitly posted under the authors handle on our forums and turned it into their own "news".
> 
> That didn't stop XBit Labs, Toms Hardware, WCCFTech, Hardware.Info and many others from "discovering" this "Top secret AMD architecture news" though. Did any of these "tech" sites actually research it? Did any of them actually ask AMD about it? Did any of them do so much as a mere image search to see if they could verify where it came from? Did any of them attempt to contact the author who's email was on the forum post? If you said yes to any of these questions, you would be wrong.
> 
> And that brings us to the sad state of technical news and the sounding board that is the Internet. No one checks or researches anything even if they say they do. People find random posts and images and proclaim them news. Another site will pick it up without even following the links from the last site, if they bothered to credit at all, and suddenly it is everywhere. And it still isn't true.
> 
> Worse yet, though they may claim otherwise, none of these purportedly technical sites seem to have the background to understand why it could not be real. They also don't seem to have the critical reasoning skills necessary to ask even the most basic questions to sources that could set them straight. That or they didn't bother to send out an email or two before putting this hot "news" on their sites.
> 
> That is the sad state of Internet technical news. No one checks anything, no one second sources anything, no one verifies anything, and no one seems to have the technical ability to tell black from white. The hottest scoop of the moment seems to be a nine month old illustration for a SemiAccurate forum post from one of our authors that everyone just slapped up on the front page as truth instead of doing the bare minimum required of a journalist. This is beyond sad.*S|A*


http://semiaccurate.com/2013/05/20/amds-volcanic-islands-architecture/


----------



## raghu78

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> There is an absolute confirmation by AMD itself they will announce something on the Volcanic Island GPUs (explicitly that and that information only as I say it) in a tech day in September 25. This is not from their website but by two journalists that published a direct AMD confirmation. i.e. we should accept it as obviously true unless they want to destroy their credibility completely.
> 
> Now, reality is, *everything else* is unconfirmed. October is just "most likely" because that's what people expect from the historical record about such tech days. *That means there is still a probability it will not be October or that it may not be 2013 at all and it will be 20nm!* Then, the specs are much worse than that. At least half of them published are absolute speculation. Some are simply laughable.


ridiculous







if you knew a bit about AMD and the GPU industry you would not make such a statement. You don't call the press to unveil a product and then tell them to go home saying its not launching in the near future. You call the press to explain the product and its architecture. You provide production samples of the product for testing and benchmarking with a Non disclosure agreement to not reveal performance till actual launch date. The time provided is for reviewers to benchmark the product and prepare their analysis/reviews and also for Add in board partners to ship products to retail and have them on shelves for launch day. Normally the time is 2 - 3 weeks. In the case of HD 5870 it was 2 weeks.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2841

"*2 weeks ago we got our first briefing on the members of the Evergreen family*, and AMD publically announced their Eyefinity technology running on the then-unnamed Radeon HD 5870"

In Hawaii's case its 3 weeks. the launch is happening in mid-oct (the week of Oct 14th)


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fateswarm*
> 
> Offended? Are *you* offended? You seem to have a quest to prove that it's unimportant to expose *bad journalism*.


Not eeally offended though it sure is bad to only use one benchmark and call that a subjective view on reality


----------



## Darklyric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erocker*
> 
> Though it's not any kind of confirmation, I recently heard Chris Roberts (Dev. Chief for Star Citizen) mention in an interview during Gamescon that AMD has new graphics cards coming in October.


In CR we trust!


----------



## TiezZ BE

Live stream:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHfmM6QYWNM

(4h30min left)


----------

