# New Ninox mouse "Ninox Astrum" - with swapable shells



## daniel0731ex




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## Ramla777

How big is this mouse? Like the size of the Venator?


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## zZzZzZz

Beta:gamma ix and gamma xx are looking good. There is no side buttons for gamma xx







. I hope that side buttons aren't too far to reach them.


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## MaTpr0F

I hope there will be an improvement on the QC, because the Venator left much to be desired in that area.


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## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaTpr0F*
> 
> I hope there will be an improvement on the QC, because the Venator left much to be desired in that area.


That's an ODM product. The new design, if done correctly, will have less issues.

It's true that QC has to be monitored for every batch because Chinese factories will skip on the effort to save money.


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## granitov

I only imagine the amount of work to deliver proper quality with this one. There's cases when a company couldn't fix one shell or design (Razer's new Deathadders shells built worse than 3-3.5G era ones, Roccat's KPOE turned to be a bit worse than KPM while having the same shape, Zowie couln't fix their scroll wheels). Think what it'll take for a small company to prouce 3 proper shells plus attachments.


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## the1freeMan

20-9-11-2 ... ok!

btw make software!


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## uaokkkkkkkk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*


Kingsis Krait > Kingsis Mico


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## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ramla777*
> 
> How big is this mouse? Like the size of the Venator?


_There are three main shapes: Alpha (aka Aurora)_


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## Br3chtel

Here some more infos I got:

"Thanks







Sensor is 3360, I don't know the click latency yet, it'll either use the Venator PCB which has 4.5ms click latency, or a modified (more features) version of qsxcv's 3360 firmware, which may have lower latency (not fully tested yet)."


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## povohat

sign me up, alpha and beta shells are the most interesting to me


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## P54J

Make sure to include sensor position as another shape related info.


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## wonderboysam

Like the alpha most although I wasn't totally satisfied with the original Aurora was hoping for a g1/100s shape felt the Aurora had too much of a booty can't really see it in these prototypes however

Would like:
- the sensor to be positioned marginally above halfway
- feet that span the width of the mouse (not 4 pod style feet in each corner)


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## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> Make sure to include sensor position as another shape related info.


Sensor position is the same distance from the rear as the WMO. The front measurement is a bit longer though because the front buttons extend further. But the position relative to the rear is the most meaningful measurement IMO.

I will start a new thread for suggestions and feedback soon, where I'll reveal a lot more, and there will be some prizes







Maybe will be in about a week (I have to finalise things with admins here).

As far as quality goes, I've got a pretty comprehensive checklist of things to inspect. But also there will be a beta test, so the design will be improved if needed, and things to pay attention to on the production line will be added to the list.

However its not 100% certain its going to be made in China, it could be made in the UK (I know a good factory who can do it). I still have to compare the costs, though.


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## P54J

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Sensor position is the same distance from the rear as the WMO. The front measurement is a bit longer though because the front buttons extend further. But the position relative to the rear is the most meaningful measurement IMO.
> .


Okay, How does it compare to Venator? It has lower sensor position. Is Astrum going to have similar approach?


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## 7175

Looking forward to more details on this one.


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## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P54J*
> 
> Okay, How does it compare to Venator? It has lower sensor position. Is Astrum going to have similar approach?


Astrum has a forward sensor position, so no its not like the venator.


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## IlIkeJuice

I'm so Beta.


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## a_ak57

Where the G9-style shell at?


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## lurkerguy

This looks lit, beta xx on that WMOish shape from bottom coming with 3360 and most importantly option for a shell that has no holes for side buttons on it is all a man could ask for. Just drop the ugly transformer logo and a possible DPI button and make it 70g like Aurora and there might be finally a reason to use something else than WMO.


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## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Astrum has a forward sensor position, so no its not like the venator.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Sensor position is the same distance from the rear as the WMO. The front measurement is a bit longer though because the front buttons extend further. But the position relative to the rear is the most meaningful measurement IMO..


So again, an aurora/G1 like shape with a too high sensor position for fingertip or hybrid grip styles. Can't say im surprised. Unfortunate in this case, as i like the idea with the different shapes. Nothing wrong with that sensor position on well... wmo style shapes.

That's one of the very few things Logitech got right with the g pro. (unlike g100s or g3)


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## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> So again, an aurora/G1 like shape with a too high sensor position for fingertip or hybrid grip styles. Can't say im surprised. Unfortunate in this case, as i like the idea with the different shapes. Nothing wrong with that sensor position on well... wmo style shapes.
> 
> That's one of the very few things Logitech got right with the g pro. (unlike g100s or g3)


Sorry, its hard to please everyone









But, if the weight comes out very low, then I might be able to add an adjustable sensor position


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## popups

I rather have hinged main buttons over adjustable sensor position. Personally, I would place the sensor 1-2mm from the scroll wheel to save weight and give more radius for those who touch the rear of the mouse with their palms.


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## paers

What material on the sides?

Really wanted to like Venator but I can't. Even when not playing, that textured glossy plastic is on the brink of slipping out of my hand.


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## favoxhille

light mouse ok but don't make the mistake of finalmouse with the s1, that's like having a giant hollow rock in your hand (really weird... definetely not comfy)
and whats the length measurement??


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## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Sorry, its hard to please everyone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, if the weight comes out very low, then I might be able to add an adjustable sensor position


This is something you really should focus on. If not now, then later. You would fill a gap here, because no mouse manufacturer has done this before. IMO sensor position is much more important than all this DPI and pollingrate talking. But to be fair, for people who aim with their whole arm and don't use their wrist much its not that much of a deal, so yes. you can't please everyone if you don't want to make the mouse too expensive. Its already a good step to let people use different shapes with your PCB. You still have my support.


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## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*


I still don't know what this means.. ;/


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## wonderboysam

its the zowie mico


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## gene-z

Why no old school Logi clone shapes that nobody seems to create? There are a ton of classic Logitech shapes people are constantly asking for. The shapes presented just look like every other shape already available on the market from other companies.


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## mousemass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> But, if the weight comes out very low, then I might be able to add an adjustable sensor position


I don't think an adjustable sensor is worth it. I'd guess most people like the WMO sensor position and would never move it (myself included), and even if you might toy with it more people would prefer the lower weight. And having an adjustable sensor is just one more place for potential QC issues or things to break, which would pretty much kill the mouse outright if it was a common problem.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> People guide their sensor/mouse on the pad almost like a compass/circle tool when they use their wrists only on the pad. Means the horizonal movement on the screen increases drastically vs. the vertical distance the more the sensor is to the front.


This is pretty easy to test, and should pretty much settle the argument. Just try holding your mouse with a really far back fingertip grip to simulate a forward mouse sensor, and try to make a straight horizontal line with wrist aim.

It's not hard at all actually, your fingers should adjust automatically to account for the wrist not being able to make a straight line by itself. I personally feel no difference between how straight I can aim with that and with a normal grip, the only difference is the simulated forward sensor has a much wider range of motion.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gene-z*
> 
> Why no old school Logi clone shapes that nobody seems to create? There are a ton of classic Logitech shapes people are constantly asking for. The shapes presented just look like every other shape already available on the market from other companies.


I mean, the WMO hasn't been adequately remade either. The Astrum Beta XX looks like it might be the first one to match it. But I think the point right now isn't to make a hundred different shapes even though there's tons in demand to recreate, it's to get some common ones that people really liked.


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## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> preferably with software


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*
> 
> I rest my case.


Uhh i mentioned software. There is nothing wrong with software if done right. Obviously to get the max out of this feature it would be the best to be able to adjust sensor in very small steps with hotkeys or something. Just an idea. For sure not required.


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## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mousemass*
> 
> This is pretty easy to test, and should pretty much settle the argument. Just try holding your mouse with a really far back fingertip grip to simulate a forward mouse sensor, and try to make a straight horizontal line with wrist aim.


I was about to mention this in my post, but just skipped it. Its not easy to test. Best is to swipe left and right, just how it still feels comfortable with the wrist on the pad, and then pull the mouse with the other hand further to the front, so your hand doesn't change the position and re-adjust grip too much to the shape. There should be more distance to the right with the same wrist movement (when pulling the mouse more to the front with the left hand). If you still dont see the difference, do this test in game. (on high sensitivity, trying to make 180° flicks for example) Or even do this test with drawing circles in paint, or writing your name in paint (or just writing numbers) Doing this test with various mice there should be always one spot where the cursor feels more connected to your hand movement.


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## mousemass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> There should be more distance to the right with the same wrist movement


I think everyone's in agreement with forward sensor positions giving you a wider range of motion.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Doing this test with various mice there should be always one spot where the cursor feels more connected to your hand movement.


This is true. When wrist aiming with fingertip grip, I find a forward sensor position to be the most intuitive and in-tune with my intended movements. But I also saw no difference in performance or changes in the tests you mentioned (I can post them, it's hard to tell which one was done with what grip) and personally I didn't feel a huge difference anyway (and would rather a suboptimal sensor position for my grip if it means better weight an QC, which is pretty relevant for this mouse).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> Uhh i mentioned software. There is nothing wrong with software if done right. Obviously to get the max out of this feature it would be the best to be able to adjust sensor in very small steps with hotkeys or something. Just an idea. For sure not required.


For sensor position though. Are you talking about controlling a motor in the mouse to physically move it or something? Is that worth adding 30g or whatever to a mouse?


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## Yahar

I'm very interested in this. Bst, Is it possible to make them weigh only 50-65grams, and with 0 debounce delay? That would be the very nice!


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## Avalar

I want it.


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## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> I'm very interested in this. Bst, Is it possible to make them weigh only 50-65grams, and with 0 debounce delay? That would be the very nice!


50 grams = breaks upon touch. 65-ish is more likely.


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## sharp

I hope it's <=70 grs and <= 117mm length


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## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Br3chtel*
> 
> which may have lower latency (not fully tested yet)."


of course it has lower latency


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## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mousemass*
> 
> I
> For sensor position though. Are you talking about controlling a motor in the mouse to physically move it or something? Is that worth adding 30g or whatever to a mouse?


Yes that's what im talking about. I doubt its another 30g. But maybe 10-15g. Who knows. Depends on how it's done.


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## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mousemass*
> 
> I think everyone's in agreement with forward sensor positions giving you a wider range of motion.


In favor to horizontal movement only. That's the problem here. That's why its bad if you hold the mouse too much forward (which 99% of the fingertip people or hybrid grip people do, because otherwise there is no mobility.)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mousemass*
> 
> This is true. When wrist aiming with fingertip grip, I find a forward sensor position to be the most intuitive and in-tune with my intended movements. But I also saw no difference in performance or changes in the tests you mentioned


Not sure what you mean with performance. I never said try to play with that. But an optimal sensor position is much better for muscle memory. It's like you have almost no learning curve, because aiming feels more natural. This has to be experienced with an actual mouse which has this said sensor position. Just holding the mouse in an uncomfortable way to have technically a higher or lower sensor positon wont work for playing.


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## chr1spe

I've never understood why anyone would want the sensor anywhere other than in line with their thumb. There is the issue that not everyone will put their thumb in the same spot, but the whole mouse will be off for that person if it has thumb buttons at that point. Just line the buttons and sensor up and put them in line with where the thumb should be positioned.

That whole post linked earlier where the op said 60-65 cm from the base of the palm was ideal is absurd to me unless you have very short stubby thumbs. Really sensor position entirely depends on what you are using for your reference of motion. It is most natural to use a finger and in the case of mice specifically the thumb imo as the point of reference for motion and would be inclined to think most people do that regardless of whether they are aware of it or not. For fine control fingers are simply more natural to use than another part of the hand as we are more used to using fingers for fine motor control. You can't really use your pointer finger as your reference of motion since it is at the front of the mouse. At least that is my opinion on sensor position. There are tons of factors, but in general in line with the area the thumb is intended to be seems fine to me.


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## bst

These are the measurements, I forgot before to include the mouse feet in the height, so its 40mm.
Alpha: 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH)
Beta: 133 x 68 x 40mm
Gamma: 133 x 73 x 40mm

133mm long might sound quite large, but its just because the buttons extend out at the front. If you look at the side view, the base of the mouse is 124mm long, then theres 9mm of button overhang. So basically just an extra cm for those with longer fingers.


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## sharp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> These are the measurements, I forgot before to include the mouse feet in the height, so its 40mm.
> Alpha: 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH)
> Beta: 133 x 68 x 40mm
> Gamma: 133 x 73 x 40mm
> 
> 133mm long might sound quite large, but its just because the buttons extend out at the front. If you look at the side view, the base of the mouse is 124mm long, then theres 9mm of button overhang. So basically just an extra cm for those with longer fingers.


I thought this was going to be smaller than the Venator... its actually longer with the same height. Even if you discount the buttons extended at the front (which are still part of the mouse and add to the overall bulk and feel of it) its still 124 vs 122.

This will probably please those who want a WMO shape (beta), but for those of us that want a small mouse (original abyssus, kinzu, g1/g100s, aurora...) this is just too big. Definitely not what I was expecting









I will keep an eye on this and i really wish you succeed so you can make a small version (<=117mm long, <=63mm width, <=37mm height, <=70grs) in the future.


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## Skyval

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> the base of the mouse is 124mm long, then theres 9mm of button overhang. So basically just an extra cm for those with longer fingers.


So the tip isn't rounded down like on an actual WMO? I'm not sure why but I liked that about the WMO. I guess because my fingers do go over the end, but with the WMO it doesn't bother me because they don't rest on a hard edge. Makes the mouse fit larger hands comfortably without actually being larger/heavier, maybe.


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## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skyval*
> 
> So the tip isn't rounded down like on an actual WMO? I'm not sure why but I liked that about the WMO. I guess because my fingers do go over the end, but with the WMO it doesn't bother me because they don't rest on a hard edge. Makes the mouse fit larger hands comfortably without actually being larger/heavier, maybe.


Well thats the problem, if I make the dimensions the same as the WMO, then I need to put in the curved front buttons, and then its pretty much a rip off of a WMO. If I don't keep the curved buttons then people who the WMO fits, the Astrum won't. So the only real way to do it is to "uncurl" the front buttons.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sharp*
> 
> I thought this was going to be smaller than the Venator... its actually longer with the same height. Even if you discount the buttons extended at the front (which are still part of the mouse and add to the overall bulk and feel of it) its still 124 vs 122.
> 
> This will probably please those who want a WMO shape (beta), but for those of us that want a small mouse (original abyssus, kinzu, g1/g100s, aurora...) this is just too big. Definitely not what I was expecting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will keep an eye on this and i really wish you succeed so you can make a small version (<=117mm long, <=63mm width, <=37mm height, <=70grs) in the future.


I don't understand why the extra length is so bad, its not like the mouse got a percentage larger all over, its just extended at the front by 16mm (or 9mm for the WMO). The rest of the dimensions are the same. It shouldn't affect the feel of it since your fingers won't be touching the extra area, unless you like to drape your fingers over the edge of the buttons.


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## favoxhille

ufff i think the 133mm length is a dream killer plus one of the things that i really liked about the wmo was that the base prolonged longer than the buttons... i feel the big hands users but the top gaming market is all around mice for big hands cuz of the occidental average, also as a matter of fact many pro players prefer really short mice so the tips of their fingers can hang over the mouse(that's actually a good thing for reaction times ) , talking for myself i use palmish grip (with ring and middle fingers clawing a bit) and with a ec2,kinzu,abyssus v2 i cant stay comftortable in terms of width rest of the palm but at the same time being able to fastly flick for quick small movements with fingers(consider i use a medium sens for cs players and low for arena player)


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## Avalar

Well, you can't please _everybody_, right? At least not in a single shape, that is. But I see what the others are getting at. I mean, if you've made a mouse with 13 different shells, why not make a series of shorter ones for those who prefer it? Like G Pro-ish length.

Not for me, though. I love big mice.







Length, and the combination of length and height (or depth) is what's most important to me concerning shapes. I'm comfortable using a mouse as short as 38mm and as tall as 43mm, just as long as it's long enough lengthwise so that my fingers don't hang off the ends of the buttons _too much_ with a palm grip. I don't find myself worrying about the grip width of mice, either.


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## bst

I'll get the thread started with the Admins, then I can talk about things properly.

But maybe I can do two seperate kickstarters (one large, one small), or just make one kickstarter with both large and small included. Not sure which would be best but we can talk about it in the new thread, where I'll be more free to talk about it.


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## popups

As long as the mouse is made to fit in the palm well, then extends the front for longer fingers, I would be okay with the length. However, I might not be okay with the super straight buttons. I could probably use a 119mm mouse very well if the rear is made to fill the palm unlike say the Zowie FK. I don't like my fingers going over the front of the mouse, it seems to reduce your total control.

The height [40mm] is too much for me. I would be cool with 37mm if the shape is right. 40mm is fine for an ergo shape if it's only at the index finger area. I want to be able to touch the mouse pad with my palm and finger tips to give me better physical control when I stop the mouse or have to do 1-3mm corrections. It's not as easy to do those things when the mouse is keeping my hand off the mouse pad. Also, if my hand rests on the mouse itself the mouse feet and mouse pad will wear down much faster.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> I've never understood why anyone would want the sensor anywhere other than in line with their thumb. There is the issue that not everyone will put their thumb in the same spot, but the whole mouse will be off for that person if it has thumb buttons at that point. Just line the buttons and sensor up and put them in line with where the thumb should be positioned.
> 
> That whole post linked earlier where the op said 60-65 cm from the base of the palm was ideal is absurd to me unless you have very short stubby thumbs. Really sensor position entirely depends on what you are using for your reference of motion. It is most natural to use a finger and in the case of mice specifically the thumb imo as the point of reference for motion and would be inclined to think most people do that regardless of whether they are aware of it or not. For fine control fingers are simply more natural to use than another part of the hand as we are more used to using fingers for fine motor control. You can't really use your pointer finger as your reference of motion since it is at the front of the mouse. At least that is my opinion on sensor position. There are tons of factors, but in general in line with the area the thumb is intended to be seems fine to me.


I like to have the sensor far forward because I can do micro movements a lot easier. The less effort and total distance I need to move the mouse the less potential for error and I can be faster. Using my fingers and wrist is a lot more controllable than swiping my entire arm. If I increase my cursor speed, and have aggressive movements, I will make much more errors.


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## uaokkkkkkkk

I'd be interested in how the alpha shell would look next to the original diamondback.


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## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> I'd be interested in how the alpha shell would look next to the original diamondback.


The arch is very different. I don't know if that would matter to you (it does for me). I didn't really like the sides of the Diamondback. I really liked the arch, the main buttons and scroll wheel position.


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## favoxhille

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> As long as the mouse is made to fit in the palm well, then extends the front for longer fingers, I would be okay with the length. However, I might not be okay with the super straight buttons. I could probably use a 119mm mouse very well if the rear is made to fill the palm unlike say the Zowie FK. I don't like my fingers going over the front of the mouse, it seems to reduce your total control.
> 
> The height [40mm] is too much for me. I would be cool with 37mm if the shape is right. 40mm is fine for an ergo shape if it's only at the index finger area. I want to be able to touch the mouse pad with my palm and finger tips to give me better physical control when I stop the mouse or have to do 1-3mm corrections. It's not as easy to do those things when the mouse is keeping my hand off the mouse pad. Also, if my hand rests on the mouse itself the mouse feet and mouse pad will wear down much faster.
> I like to have the sensor far forward because I can do micro movements a lot easier. The less effort and total distance I need to move the mouse the less potential for error and I can be faster. Using my fingers and wrist is a lot more controllable than swiping my entire arm. If I increase my cursor speed, and have aggressive movements, I will make much more errors.


there are plenty of variant if you want a wider back: za or sensei like shape with middle/back hump, doesnt make any sense doing another sensei like clone when instead whats lacking is more variant of wmo/fk


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## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *favoxhille*
> 
> there are plenty of variant if you want a wider back: za or sensei like shape with middle/back hump, doesnt make any sense doing another sensei like clone when instead whats lacking is more variant of wmo/fk


Sensei and ZA are not ideal shapes for the palm. There is a lot of unused area at the very rear, about 2-4mm.

The Diamondback is a much different design than the ZA, FK, Sensei, WMO, etc.


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## uaokkkkkkkk

Yup, different ᵃⁿᵈ ᵐᵘᶜʰ ᵐᵘᶜʰ ᵇᵉᵗᵗᵉʳ


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## favoxhille

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Sensei and ZA are not ideal shapes for the palm. There is a lot of unused area at the very rear, about 2-4mm.
> 
> The Diamondback is a much different design than the ZA, FK, Sensei, WMO, etc.


well in terms of rounded back shape that's all it can be done , diamondback,g100and gpro are a different style and imo feel less relaxing for the palm because of the lack of surface to rest the palm on


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## wonderboysam

+1 for diamondback/g100s rounded back


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## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> I've never understood why anyone would want the sensor anywhere other than in line with their thumb. There is the issue that not everyone will put their thumb in the same spot, but the whole mouse will be...


I thought the same many years ago. Back then i had the luck to have choosen a perfect mouse (shape and sensorwise) by chance, when i started to play FPS games around 2004. (first logitech pilot optical and then the legendary mx300 with the A2020 sensor as seen in the mx500) I really didn't know anything about that stuff but also didn't care. Only later when i had to try other mice i never understood why my aim never felt as good as in my mx300 days. I played with the G3 which probably has one of the better laser sensors . (many long time G5 users will agree with this, although this mouse/sensor should only be used with the right mousepad and higher sensitivity)
I always blamed the mouserate of 500hz for the lack of precision, which couldn't be changed with driver back then. I was too much used to 125hz with the mx300 or G1 anyway, but that was not the reason. Later then i realised that the G3 just has a slightly too low sensor position. I really had great mobility with this mouse and was able to use very high sensitivity in game, but my aiming never went back to what it was. Even today i would say its one of the best mice for desctop usage. The G100 or G100s sensor always felt off as the movement is much more affected by wrist rotation. The reason behind that for me is that i had to hold the G100 very far back as it would feel even more narrow. Which puts this somewhat even low sensor position too much to the front, so after all the sensor could have been even lower. I didnt have that problem on the Zalman ZM-M600R which i tried. This mouse comes as closest to the G100s shape imo and has a sensor postion from about 5.1 cm. I don't remember the sensor position of the G100s right now, but it was much higher.

About the thumb rule you were talking about. Yes there are some nice examples of mice which just have the sensor in a line of the thumb, such as the Deathadder shape, which many people, no matter if high or low sens loved. *But* and here comes the confusion about this, if you actually measure the sensor high from the bottom of the mouse, you will get the sweet spot of the 6,5 cm. An other example of this would be the G502.

In my research with different shape and mousemods, (which allow to change the sensor position) the key is the distance from your wrist to the sensor (rather than the distance just measured from the bottom of the shell to the sensor. )
That's why i think the sweet spot on many different variety of mouseshapes is around 5.8-6.2 cm as long as there is some space between your palm and the mouse. If your palm is in contact to the back of the mouse Nilizum is absolutely right with his 6,5cm rule.


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## t3ram

I really like the concept, what do you expect the mouse to cost if it will be made?


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## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t3ram*
> 
> I really like the concept, what do you expect the mouse to cost if it will be made?


Not sure yet, I'll try and make it as fair priced as possible though. I might have a good idea of the price in about 2 weeks time.


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## Viperl00

I would rather have it made in the UK and have it cost more.


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## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Not sure yet, I'll try and make it as fair priced as possible though. I might have a good idea of the price in about 2 weeks time.


So when you buy the mouse, are you getting it with one shell that you choose? Can you get several and swap them out yourself?


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## chr1spe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *acid_reptile*
> 
> A lot of stuff. (


Idk, I play strictly finger tip grip, but my preferred sensor position is closer to 10cm from my wrist. I am currently using the g pro and the g logo at the back of the mouse only reaches to under my middle knuckle.

To me the whole thing with sensor position is just what you are used to using as a reference for the amount of motion. Tbh if there was a mouse with the sensor directly under m1 so you could use your pointer finger as the reference it would be extremely awkward at first, but would become quite natural after a while once you became accustom to using your pointer as the reference of motion.


----------



## Bucake

anything on texture? coating / rubber? please no plain abs bro


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bucake*
> 
> anything on texture? coating / rubber? please no plain abs bro


UV matte probably, most people seem to like it. On sides and top.


----------



## acid_reptile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chr1spe*
> 
> Idk, I play strictly finger tip grip, but my preferred sensor position is closer to 10cm from my wrist. I am currently using the g pro


For me it seems like 7,5 cm. (i'm on a modded DM1 pro S now) The g pro has the same sensor position as the old mx300 or G1. So there's nothing to complain in this regard. Are you measuring it right? http://cdn.overclock.net/6/6e/900x900px-LL-6e469974_g100shand.png

edit:

on the modded DM1pro shape, measuring like in that example picture above, get like 7.5 cm

on the mx300/G1 shape i get like 7,6 cm

and on the ninox astrum i get like 7,4 cm

weird huh


----------



## ov3rmind

+1 for rounded back. back way down ground with low angle makes palm slip from mouse.


----------



## lainx

hoping the A's a diamondback design! It seems to be somewhat higher though...

Are you going to separate LMB/RMB similar to G Pro and others?
I've realized my issue with the Venator buttons is that with my grip i tend to switch between claw and fingertip almost (mostly on the desktop), which makes me click the buttons way back resulting in really "dull"/sluggish/heavy clicks. Dunno how to describe it. Like my fingers gets behind the dpi button slightly. I also come from a G Pro with lighter clicks so i'm used to that one (and prefer it).


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lainx*
> 
> hoping the A's a diamondback design! It seems to be somewhat higher though...


I guess it'll feel similar to the DB, I think its a bit lower than it though, not higher? I have to find my one and measure it to be sure.
But on here it says the size of the DB is 128mm (length) x 70mm (width) x 42.5mm (height). Compared to: 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH).

Its a lot more of a simple design than the DB though, since the sides are flat. I'll see how it feels when its printed, I used a DB for quite a while so I'll let you know if its similar. But since it doesn't have those rubber side parts, it'll probably feel fairly different (thinner, mostly).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lainx*
> 
> Are you going to separate LMB/RMB similar to G Pro and others?


Yes.


----------



## lainx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I guess it'll feel similar to the DB, I think its a bit lower than it though, not higher? I have to find my one and measure it to be sure.
> But on here it says the size of the DB is 128mm (length) x 70mm (width) x 42.5mm (height). Compared to: 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH).
> 
> Its a lot more of a simple design than the DB though, since the sides are flat. I'll see how it feels when its printed, I used a DB for quite a while so I'll let you know if its similar. But since it doesn't have those rubber side parts, it'll probably feel fairly different (thinner, mostly).
> Yes.


I had the number 34.xmm somehow embedded into my memory. According to Razers own website they state that it's 30mm, which i doubt. I have a E-blue mouse here somewhere which is basically a replica of the old diamondback. Looking at their lineup the cobra (which i also believe to be a replica of it), measures at 38.5mm. at that point 40mm wouldn't matter. For me, personally, i'm not fond of big humps which has been trending for some time now. G pro's at 38.2mm, which i'm guessing due to design feels larger.
I found a old newegg stock from when the razer 1.6 pro|click (prosolutions, whatever) was around. This was the one i used.
128mm (length) x 63.5mm (width) x 39.1mm (height). Yours seems to almost match it, and i guess it's gonna depend on where the hump will be located.

Cool, will be waiting! I'm going to buy the mouse anyhow but if it's actually very similar to a DB i might even preorder :O
The sides doesn't matter much for me, i've been padding the sides with tennis grip for some time now. works a treat!


----------



## ov3rmind

so astrum's size will be 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH)?

That seems too long.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lainx*
> 
> 128mm (length) x 63.5mm (width) x 39.1mm (height). Yours seems to almost match it, and i guess it's gonna depend on where the hump will be located.


You can see on the side view picture where the hump is (1st post).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ov3rmind*
> 
> so astrum's size will be 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH)?
> 
> That seems too long.


It'd be 123mm long if I remove the front button "overhang" (you can see a side profile in the 1st post), so it feels like a 123mm long mouse for the most part, but with longer buttons.


----------



## popups

If I remember correctly, I measured the Diamondback at 38mm tall.


----------



## Freshest

I wish the dimensions of the beta shells were one size smaller. I found my perfect mouse shape to basically be a smaller WMO (117x60x38 with 55cm grip width). If there is a kickstarter, I hope a stretch goal would be a smaller product.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Freshest*
> 
> I wish the dimensions of the beta shells were one size smaller. I found my perfect mouse shape to basically be a smaller WMO (117x60x38 with 55cm grip width). If there is a kickstarter, I hope a stretch goal would be a smaller product.


TBH a lot of people want a small version, so I'll probably just increase the goal and offer both sizes from the beginning. Although the goal will be higher, if one version falls behind a bit, the other can help. As long as they don't both do badly it should be ok


----------



## Freshest

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> TBH a lot of people want a small version, so I'll probably just increase the goal and offer both sizes from the beginning. Although the goal will be higher, if one version falls behind a bit, the other can help. As long as they don't both do badly it should be ok


Oh that makes me very happy if you do. Would be an instant contribution from me.


----------



## daniel0731ex

Will there be a LMO shell option?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*
> 
> Will there be a LMO shell option?


I suppose the smaller "alpha" one would be like that, but wouldn't curve in at the front, as in, from above it would look more like a U shape rather than an egg shape.


----------



## daniel0731ex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I suppose the smaller "alpha" one would be like that, but wouldn't curve in at the front, as in, from above it would look more like a U shape rather than an egg shape.


The most important thing is that the length must be short so that one can hold it with ample palm clearance without the mouse being front-heavy.

Mouse mice including the G100s, G Pro, and Abyssus are still not optimal due to the fingertip position being relatively far back compared to their center or mass.


----------



## Aliandro1d

i know u want to have swappable sides but why not revise this approach a bit u can have a small square mouse as the base similar to a g9, happy fingertip grippers







. Then have the side parts also encompass the rear similar to how the old g9 used to work but u split it in half essentially, this way u can make a mouse that reaches the entire market at once, later down the line u can release "sides" that have a longer rear etc. for people who want an even longer mouse.
Essentially my idea allows for custom dimensions in length as well as width. u could even go down the root of the james donkey modular mouse that has the back as a completely separate piece, but off course the further u go down that road who knows what weight could be achieved.

IDK how far along u are with the product but it seems allot of people are excited for the possibilities this represents not so much the product as teased so far. People would like to change more than simply the sides.


----------



## czerro

I'm curious about Ninox's approach here.

The number one issue with mice is always shell and fitting and general construction quality. This leap to transformable mice is odd. It only saves cost for the manufacturer to make one form around 1 PCB with a bunch of detachable pieces, but seems to logically introduce more inconsistency and naturally exacerbate the previously mentioned issues.


----------



## mousemass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aliandro1d*
> 
> IDK how far along u are with the product but it seems allot of people are excited for the possibilities this represents not so much the product as teased so far. People would like to change more than simply the sides.


I don't know if they're most people. A lot just want a good modern WMO or solid Aurora, with balanced low weights and centered sensor positions. A lot of people, like myself, want to experiment with different shapes, but only as long as it still has a good weight and sensor position. I really like the idea of customization, but first and foremost I want a good mouse.

Customizing length means keeping things centered like that is a lot more difficult. Going too modular, and making those shapes only be available by adding more back to it, would push basically all the weight and the sensor position really forward. That'd be fine for some, many fingertip grippers do like a forward sensor, but most people I've seen like centered sensors. It might be a good idea later, but I don't think it should replace the current Astrum design.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aliandro1d*
> 
> i know u want to have swappable sides but why not revise this approach a bit [...]


The design is already that sides and rear-top are interchangeable, I was thinking of making a "scaffold" CAD file, so people can design parts they want to 3D print (that's easier said than done, though). I did think about making the design two removable parts with a split down the middle, but it makes the mold complicated, and its harder to make it a secure fit.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czerro*
> 
> I'm curious about Ninox's approach here.
> 
> The number one issue with mice is always shell and fitting and general construction quality. This leap to transformable mice is odd. It only saves cost for the manufacturer to make one form around 1 PCB with a bunch of detachable pieces, but seems to logically introduce more inconsistency and naturally exacerbate the previously mentioned issues.


It doesn't really fit together much differently than a lot of non-modular mice, it just uses screws where clips would normally be used. There can always be about 0.2mm of tolerance, but there will be rounded edges on parts which meet, so even if there is a 0.2mm difference, it shouldn't be noticeable. There will be a fairly large beta test which will mostly focus on the shell.


----------



## Aliandro1d

does that mean with the sides u can make the mouse shorter already? i dont get why u are considering a 2nd smaller version if this is the case. maybe u can show us what the base mouse looks like with no sides so we can get an idea of your apporach?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aliandro1d*
> 
> does that mean with the sides u can make the mouse shorter already? i dont get why u are considering a 2nd smaller version if this is the case. maybe u can show us what the base mouse looks like with no sides so we can get an idea of your apporach?


Sorry, I should have explained it better.

You wouldn't be able to make it shorter, because the "core" has guides to fit the parts, so it extends all the way back. You could potentially move the hump further back, though.

The problem with making the length adjustable is it needs interchangeable bases, and it starts to get more complicated and heavier. From what I've seen, people who want a smaller mouse, also want it to be thinner and lower as well, which wouldn't be possible (at least, in an ideal way).

It works pretty similar to the Mastermouse Pro L, but imagine the front buttons are non removable.


----------



## lurkerguy

Smaller version sounds good. Any ETA on new thread?

And will the side buttons be on a different PCB from the main one so the few people who absolutely detest side buttons and don't want the extra weight could remove that?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lurkerguy*
> 
> Smaller version sounds good. Any ETA on new thread?
> 
> And will the side buttons be on a different PCB from the main one so the few people who absolutely detest side buttons and don't want the extra weight could remove that?


I'll make the thread in about 2-3 weeks time, I want to be able to show lots of pictures









Yep, the side buttons are on a separate PCB, along with the DPI button. Plugged into the main PCB so it can be removed fairly easily.


----------



## a_ak57

What kind of weight are we looking at for all this?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> What kind of weight are we looking at for all this?


Not sure yet, but aiming for under 80g max. I should have a much better idea at the end of the month.


----------



## daniel0731ex

Can you show us what the minimum size of the internals are relative to your initial shape offerings?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*
> 
> Can you show us what the minimum size of the internals are relative to your initial shape offerings?


Hmm, well, it pretty much follows the alpha shape, like a skeleton underneath. I don't have the exact measurements yet, but around the end of the month I'll be able to get them.


----------



## daniel0731ex

Keep in mind that the G100s weighs 70 grams, original Abyssus is 72 grams, and the MiCO is 68 grams.

I can handle a slightly larger mouse (G100s sized) if the weight is within that ballpark.


----------



## Alya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*
> 
> Keep in mind that the G100s weighs 70 grams, original Abyssus is 72 grams, and the MiCO is 68 grams.
> 
> I can handle a slightly larger mouse (G100s sized) if the weight is within that ballpark.


Kinzu is 70 grams too! Don't forget that in the small mouse category.


----------



## favoxhille

80-85 grams is still great for a kinzu sized mouse 117x64x36-38, i dont see the need of a super light mouse especially for fps, i mean a bit of substance is needed when your are holding it in your hand( if you dont grip like super fingertip brush)
just dont make super unbalanced like the sc1 that was like an hollow rock.. super weird feeling


----------



## sharp

70 grs feels so much better than 80...

Plus, you can always add weight inside if you feel like it, but removing weight is harder to do.


----------



## daniel0731ex

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *favoxhille*
> 
> i dont see the need of a super light mouse especially for fps, i mean a bit of substance is needed when your are holding it in your hand


???

Of all competitive game genres, FPS places the highest demand on weight minimization.

You can see judging from how most high-level players end up using a low overall sensitivity, due to having to compensate for the lack of low-weight mice with a good sensor.

What you're thinking of in terms of "substance" structural _rigidity_.

This is characterized by a material choice that minimizes [density] / [modulus of elasticity]^(1/3)


----------



## popups

A Kinzu doesn't have side buttons; same goes for the Mico and G100s. Side buttons adds ~5g, maybe more.

My G100s weighs about 66.5g without the internal weight; adding side buttons would make it ~72g. The G100s is a small mouse, which allows it to be closer to 70g (if it had side buttons) rather than a larger mouse that would weigh closer to 80g. My modified FK weighs 80g without the cable attached. The WMO is 80g.

So a medium sized mouse, with side buttons, would weigh about 80g if there was no efforts to make it extremely lightweight.

There will be unnecessary weight to have the sensor in the middle of the mouse. If they took advantage of the smaller form factor of the 3360, they could move the sensor right behind the scroll wheel, thereby reducing the weight and complexity. Or they could make multiple PCBs with weight reduction in mind.

I would like a three PCB design because it could allow for easy personal modification or various shapes without increasing costs too much for the company. I wouldn't want things to turn out like the Zowie AM, FK, ZA -- where the shapes weren't ideal because the main buttons and sensor are on the same board.


----------



## shaduh

i need this so bad


----------



## t3ram

The concept is great, if its done well i will probably sell most of the mice if not all


----------



## Yahar

Any update on this bst? Please let it be no more than 70g.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Any update on this bst? Please let it be no more than 70g.


Not yet, I had a nightmare finding the right engineer who could finish the design, lots of messing around. But about a month ago I found a local company who is good. They've finished the "alpha xx" shell, with all the interior parts now, and they said by the end of this week all the other parts will be finished. They also used a 3D laser scanner to make sure the shapes are accurate. They're aware of the weight limitations, the alpha xx was coming out around 50g without the PCB, which is about 20g, so 70g in total, but I expect its going to be more like 80g (just because 50g didn't include little bits like screws/cable/ etc, and the design was made stronger since then). I think its going to be difficult to make it much lighter, but I will try. 70g should be possible for the smaller version though.

At the moment I'm making a PCB ready to go into the shell, I'm going to use the teensy with a modded version of qsxcv's firmware to start. So it'll be teensy+tindie 3360 board + custom PCB for switches. Once the firmware is finished I'll make a final PCB. I won't make the final PCB just yet, because it takes longer to make than a simple board for the switches that I can just solder in components, it'll be enough to prove the concept which is the main thing atm.

So, I guess, within a couple of weeks I'll have something to show


----------



## Yahar

Thank you for the update, very much appreciated. Sounds very good!
I'm happy that one of the shells is 70g. Can the modded firmware be used in the retail product without any issues/consent from him? It should have lower latency so in my book that's good thing.


----------



## Bucake

sounds good! thanks for the update


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Can the modded firmware be used in the retail product without any issues/consent from him? It should have lower latency so in my book that's good thing.


Should be fine, its something I have to talk to him about to iron out some details, but I don't think there will be any problems. Heres the copyright notice in the firmware:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



* Copyright (c) 2016 qsxcv
*
* Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
* of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
* in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights
* to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
* copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
* furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:
*
* The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
* all copies or substantial portions of the Software.


----------



## popups

Does the design use separated buttons? A hinged design would be cool, but that probably would be a heavier design.


----------



## daniel0731ex

How viable would it be to have MCU-level accel customization?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> Does the design use separated buttons? A hinged design would be cool, but that probably would be a heavier design.


Yes, it uses non-hinged separated buttons. TBH I haven't tried hinged before, might be worth looking into.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*
> 
> How viable would it be to have MCU-level accel customization?


I'll be talking about this with the FW programmer, I'm sure its possible. If it can be done, I'll do it. I really want it, for myself, since I use accel in quake and miss it in other games


----------



## daniel0731ex

Just beware of framerate transition and we'll be gucci.

Doing accel on MCU eliminates error caused by aliasing artifact between unsynchronized USB polling and sensor framerate.

Also goes without saying that it removes the need to account for horizontally compressed accel curve between different polling rates like you need to in Povohat, as long as you normalize the sensor counts by their time interval, which is why MCU is the best place to do it since it receives the counts unadulterated (as long as the sensor doesn't do the bugged frame averaging causing count spikes at framerate transitions..


----------



## ov3rmind

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Any update on this bst? Please let it be no more than 70g.


that's impossible bud


----------



## lurkerguy

The last thing I would be worried about would be weight since bst has quite a bit of experience making lightweight but durable mice by now. Sub 70g shouldn't be that hard for the smaller model without side button PCB and DPI button and somewhat polished shell interiors.

Few suggestions concerning aesthetics before it hits the manufacturing phase: If you are making the mouse have a side grip like in Venator, can you consider making a separate base shell that would have smooth sides? For me personally mice with side grips destroy the entire feel of the mouse which is why I absolutely detest them (even more than side buttons). It's safer to just go with smooth sides and let the people who need their tennis grips apply them themselves.

Also can you consider ditching the logo and going Nixeus style instead with only letters? Even Finalmouse dumped their logo in their newest mouse and it looks so good visually that I would buy it if I cared at all about the shape. At least ditch the logo from Venator that has both the logo and the brand name separated as it looks obnoxious. One could argue it's the ugliest looking 3360 mouse in the market because of that, even the logo in your avatar that was on Aurora looks way better. Keep the RGB if you want for people who want that for some reason but keep the logo subtle please.

And lastly, please have the mouse in full black and we are good









Still excited to give the mouse a try once it releases. Having main buttons separated is nice since unfortunately that's not as common anymore as it should be.


----------



## vanir1337

80 g sounds perfect for me, I'm very very interested in the outcome.


----------



## KGPrime

I'm putting my hat in the ring as someone looking forward to this project since there are pretty much no mice i really like on the market. I like heavier mice. I currently use all 4 5G weights in my mouse and it's about perfect, probably around 100-110 grams. I use a very light finger tip grip on a cloth pad and i can push it between my thumb an ring finger easily and it glides nicely but with some control to it. It feels more like a precision instrument as opposed to a hollow plastic toy. A mans mouse!









Perhaps something simple like we see sometimes inside of the top of shells so that you can screw a weight plate or similar, that won't affect the overall weight without it.


----------



## senileoldman

Oh man, just by your comments it's looking wonderful.

Can't wait.


----------



## senileoldman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KGPrime*
> 
> I'm putting my hat in the ring as someone looking forward to this project since there are pretty much no mice i really like on the market. I like heavier mice. I currently use all 4 5G weights in my mouse and it's about perfect, probably around 100-110 grams. I use a very light finger tip grip on a cloth pad and i can push it between my thumb an ring finger easily and it glides nicely but with some control to it. It feels more like a precision instrument as opposed to a hollow plastic toy. A mans mouse!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps something simple like we see sometimes inside of the top of shells so that you can screw a weight plate or similar, that won't affect the overall weight without it.


It seems like we grip the mouse the very same way.

I also love heavier mice. My favorite are the G9x, DA and G400.


----------



## Aliandro1d

Love u bst







don't disappoint me







or else


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lurkerguy*
> 
> Few suggestions concerning aesthetics before it hits the manufacturing phase: If you are making the mouse have a side grip like in Venator, can you consider making a separate base shell that would have smooth sides? For me personally mice with side grips destroy the entire feel of the mouse which is why I absolutely detest them (even more than side buttons). It's safer to just go with smooth sides and let the people who need their tennis grips apply them themselves.


The sides are smooth plastic and can have whatever coating people like, first batch would probably be just matte black all over.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lurkerguy*
> 
> Also can you consider ditching the logo and going Nixeus style instead with only letters? Even Finalmouse dumped their logo in their newest mouse and it looks so good visually that I would buy it if I cared at all about the shape. At least ditch the logo from Venator that has both the logo and the brand name separated as it looks obnoxious. One could argue it's the ugliest looking 3360 mouse in the market because of that, even the logo in your avatar that was on Aurora looks way better. Keep the RGB if you want for people who want that for some reason but keep the logo subtle please.


I might make a vote for it, see what people like best, logo, name, both, or just the mouse name.


----------



## MattKelly

A selfish nit-pick that I'd like to inquire about, is how the mouse1 and mouse2 buttons are split. Personally I use a 1-3-1 finger grip, and as a result I need a place to rest my middle finger in front of the mouse wheel (to serve as a guidance point for aiming). When the split between mouse1 and mouse2 are flush alongside one another, I'm unable to use my middle finger for aiming, without actuating one of the main buttons. Here are some examples:






Also, while certain mice do have that gap required for a 1-3-1 finger grip, there are times where it sits too deep (and/or the width is too narrow) to comfortably place the middle finger there without actuating / scraping against the sides of mouse1 and mouse2. Razer mice tend to be a good example of this problem.




The Astrum Alpha sounds perfect to me (I love the Aurora shape) so I'm hoping this middle finger area won't end up being a deal breaker for me


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MattKelly*
> 
> The Astrum Alpha sounds perfect to me (I love the Aurora shape) so I'm hoping this middle finger area won't end up being a deal breaker for me


It has the same kind of front as the Aurora, so should be ok!


----------



## MattKelly

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> It has the same kind of front as the Aurora, so should be ok!


Hooray! Now just let me know if you need someone to test a prototype for ya'


----------



## k0fz

So the Alpha is kind of going to be like a Zowie ZA11 but with a Diamondback rear and flat sides? Wouldn't mind if the sides sloped slightly inwards like on the G Pro or so, as it makes for an even firmer grip I think. Hard to tell without having tried both though. Either way, it sounds like an awesome shape to me. My 21cm hand appreciates the extra length too.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *k0fz*
> 
> So the Alpha is kind of going to be like a Zowie ZA11 but with a Diamondback rear and flat sides? Wouldn't mind if the sides sloped slightly inwards like on the G Pro or so, as it makes for an even firmer grip I think. Hard to tell without having tried both though. Either way, it sounds like an awesome shape to me. My 21cm hand appreciates the extra length too.


More like a WMO (with slightly longer front buttons) with a DB rear. Going to try the flat sides first and see how they feel, might change them to slanted but I think it'll be ok, flat sides should suit more grip styles. I think as long as it has a nice coating on it, it should be alright.


----------



## k0fz

Sounds great, thanks!


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> More like a WMO (with slightly longer front buttons) with a DB rear. Going to try the flat sides first and see how they feel, might change them to slanted but I think it'll be ok, flat sides should suit more grip styles. I think as long as it has a nice coating on it, it should be alright.


Any size/shape comparisons for the other shells?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Any size/shape comparisons for the other shells?


Other shells are like the WMO, one is ambi the other is ergonomic style.


----------



## favoxhille

did you take a decision about either releasing just one version or the "normal" one and a small one?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *favoxhille*
> 
> did you take a decision about either releasing just one version or the "normal" one and a small one?


I have to find out the exact costs. But its always been the plan to make a smaller version. The only question is if I put them both into the same kickstarter or not.

I think I need about $40k per mouse, maybe I can make the goal lower and take on some of the costs though. But doing two would be twice that of course, so might be pushing it. Its a bit of a tough one to decide on.

I could do something where I only seek funding for the normal sized one, then if it reaches a certain goal then I'll also develop a small version, that might be the safer thing to do. At least then if it doesn't reach the extra funding, the normal size one still gets made, and I can go back and try again for the smaller one.


----------



## pr0l4nd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The sides are smooth plastic and can have whatever coating people like, first batch would probably be just matte black all over.
> I might make a vote for it, see what people like best, logo, name, both, or just the mouse name.


Ninox logo looks great.


----------



## Lolcarrots

What's the sensor positioning going to be like?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lolcarrots*
> 
> What's the sensor positioning going to be like?


Its just above centre.


----------



## aCz-

This is reason why I like smaller companies more then big one who are going only for money. Smaller companies care about product and people who is buying it.

Good luck with your dream making your own shell and mice from zero to hero


----------



## Aliandro1d

PLS BE GOOD PLS BE GOOD PLS BE GOOD

While waiting for this i'm buying 3325 chinese mice this needs to come out before im broke


----------



## KGPrime

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> What's the sensor positioning going to be like?
> Its just above centre.


Joy


----------



## Maximillion

annddd...happy happy joy joy is stuck in my head for the rest of the day.


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> annddd...happy happy joy joy is stuck in my head for the rest of the day.


Oh ffs, that's where that picture is from...

Now it's in MY head.


----------



## KGPrime

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maximillion*
> 
> annddd...happy happy joy joy is stuck in my head for the rest of the day.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> Oh ffs, that's where that picture is from...
> 
> Now it's in MY head.












Could be worse though right?


----------



## vanir1337

From Facebook:

_Hi everyone, sorry things have been a bit quiet lately. However, in this case, no news is good news









A lot of progress has been made on the Astrum, and I have a working prototype now. Its very close to being ready. At the moment the firmware works exactly the same as the Venator, which it'll most likely be released with. However, it will be updated to have software as well, which will have just about every option you can think of







I may also release the firmware so that people can create their own, but I have to be careful, since that could result in the mouse being banned from some tournaments. Its something I'd like to do, but it might be better to simply have a request system instead (since the firmware is written in house, its not such a big deal to release new firmwares).

Also I have had discussions with the engineering company who turned my designs into a working mouse, and they are excited about making CAD templates for people who want to create their own parts to change the shape of the mouse. How well this will work, I'm not sure... but we'll try our best!

I think I will be able to show the mouse on Christmas day, I can't show it too soon, which is why I've been quietly working away on it. But I hope you will think its worth the wait when you see it! Overall I'm really pleased with how comfortable the shapes are, although I think there will need to be a smaller version as well. I was thinking that if the kickstarter gets funded for the medium size I will lauch one for the smaller size as soon as that happens. Thats all I can really say about it for now. Thanks to everyone whos shown interest, and the patience you all have!_


----------



## senileoldman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*


Ah, I love that guy.

Can't wait for the fundraiser. I'm keeping a close eye on this thread. Will surely put money to make it happen.


----------



## SmashTV

Don't need weird 3rd party firmware stuff. Just give us the options we need to not have to resort to that.


----------



## lurkerguy

Looking forward to the preview and the launch of the Kickstarter page.

@bst is that mousewheel final by the way? I'm pretty sure the entirety of OCN prefers the traditional stripes opposed to raised spikes. I for one couldn't enjoy the mousewheel of Revel for that reason. It just feels and especially looks wrong.


----------



## thrillhaus

If I were designing a WMO inspired mouse, I would try to make it obvious it's supposed to be a WMO. If the shape is right, you'll have a lot of pro players trying it out of WMO nostalgia, which is free publicity.


----------



## Avalar

I'll have one of each, _the instant_ they become available.


----------



## Avalar

Oh, btw, would each of the three main shapes be including its respective shells, or do you buy those separately? Does each shape come with a shell by default?


----------



## bst

You get all the shapes in the box when you buy it.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Yahar*
> 
> Can the modded firmware be used in the retail product without any issues/consent from him? It should have lower latency so in my book that's good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Should be fine, its something I have to talk to him about to iron out some details, but I don't think there will be any problems. Heres the copyright notice in the firmware:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> * Copyright (c) 2016 qsxcv
> *
> * Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
> * of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
> * in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights
> * to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
> * copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
> * furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:
> *
> * The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
> * all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
Click to expand...

just saw this, ya i don't really care and i think the pjrc stuff for the usb is also under a permissive license
unless one day bst's stuff becomes bigger than logitech lol


----------



## SuPeR_oNioN_MaN

can't wait!


----------



## Conditioned

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aCz-*
> 
> This is reason why I like smaller companies more then big one who are going only for money. Smaller companies care about product and people who is buying it.
> 
> Good luck with your dream making your own shell and mice from zero to hero


There's a great talk Steve Jobs has in regards to Xerox and why monopolies cannibalize themselves through poor quality. It's a shift in attention from making a great whatever to sales. You can see it in litterature, music, etc.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Conditioned*
> 
> There's a great talk Steve Jobs has in regards to Xerox and why monopolies cannibalize themselves through poor quality. It's a shift in attention from making a great whatever to sales. You can see it in litterature, music, etc.


Sounds all to familiar to the CURRENT Apple Corporation these days







.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> I may also release the firmware so that people can create their own, but I have to be careful, since that could result in the mouse being banned from some tournaments. Its something I'd like to do, but it might be better to simply have a request system instead (since the firmware is written in house, its not such a big deal to release new firmwares).


Uhh...? Then they should ban every mouse in existence or just give organizer's peripherals for the players instead of players using their own.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Uhh...? Then they should ban every mouse in existence or just give organizer's peripherals for the players instead of players using their own.


You're missing the point.


----------



## SmashTV

Again I feel if they're giving exhaustive options in the software there would be no need for 3rd party firmware.


----------



## invena

I think swappable shells are the new trend for 2018, pretty sure finalmouse is gonna be making a swappable shell mouse. However very interested in to see how this pans out from ninox, just placed an order for a venator.


----------



## hammelgammler

I like the idea of swappable shells, but I rather would have a mouse without it and it being 5g lighter. If you have a 3D Printer and can print your own sides, that would be nice and probably worth the extra weight.


----------



## Leopardi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hammelgammler*
> 
> I like the idea of swappable shells, but I rather would have a mouse without it and it being 5g lighter. If you have a 3D Printer and can print your own sides, that would be nice and probably worth the extra weight.


G9(x) was a failure, it started clanking and rattling harder than any scrollwheel or other rattle in nowadays mice.

And even worse you could _feel_ the shell physically clanking, which threw off your aim a bit.


----------



## Avalar

What would custom firmware be used for anyway? Wouldn't you just want the one that provides the least latency, least amount of inaccuracies, etc.?


----------



## thrillhaus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> What would custom firmware be used for anyway? Wouldn't you just want the one that provides the least latency, least amount of inaccuracies, etc.?


If your switches start double-clicking you may want to temporarily increase debounce until you get the chance to open it up and clean the switches. There could also be discovered issues that would be marginally quicker for the user to patch than wait for an official update. But yes in theory if the firmware options and support were perfect, it would be unnecessary.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> You're missing the point.


Fill me in then.


----------



## end0rphine

Looks like more information and pictures were posted on his FB very recently.:
Quote:


> ? Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to all! ? Heres some preview pictures of the Astrum as promised!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those who don't know, the Astrum is a new modular mouse desinged by Ninox which is due to go on Kickstarter shortly.
> 
> Please bear in mind it there are little details which aren't shown, like the exact kind of scroll wheel, and some small things about it might change, but shouldn't be anything major.
> 
> If you're confused about the wording, like "Alpha IX", I will explain: Alpha / Beta / Gamma are the main shapes, and "I" means there are side buttons, "X" mean there aren't side buttons. So "Alpha IX" just means, the alpha shape with side buttons on the left but without side buttons on the right. Hope that helps!
> 
> Feel free to leave and feedback, comments or suggestions! Also, sorry I can't show lots of pictures yet, but I promise there will be more soon. Thanks!












beta looks like my kinda shape. Kinda curious what the dimensions of the Alpha is though. Excited to see when the kickstarter launches.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Certainly does look interesting. Will be donating to the kick starter for sure. Highly anticipated @bst. Do your thang.


----------



## senileoldman

I love you, BST. Have my money.

The Gamma one looks interesting to me, as I love the G400 shape.

Can't wait for the kickstarter.


----------



## thrillhaus

Logo looks a lot cleaner without Optimus Prime.


----------



## lurkerguy

Agreed, looks really great with the texted black logo on white and LEDs only very subtly on the mousewheel. Thanks to bst for listening to my dumb rant about appearance









Insta back when it launches on Kickstarter.


----------



## end0rphine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thrillhaus*
> 
> Logo looks a lot cleaner without Optimus Prime.


Agree with this. New logo layout looks much better on the mouse.

@bst not sure if answered already, but is this glossy?


----------



## trism

Maybe it's the perspective and these are just renders but based on these, the side buttons on the Alpha look to be very far towards the front. Not sure if I would be able to actuate the front one without changing my grip. Will have to see the real models.


----------



## senileoldman

Oh, yeah. I also agree on the looks. It looks nice. Not flashy like Logitech mice. You could actually use this mouse at work, if you want. Just like with Zowie mice.

I really like how small and well placed the logo is. I also like that there's no cringey signatures, like on the Scream1.

It looks really, really nice and clean. I like it.


----------



## aayman_farzand

Can you post pictures of the Alpha from the rear? Want to see if the sides curve in as aggressively as the G Pro. If it doesn't then I might get one too









Also, what's the mouse feet set up like? Will you be using small or large ones?


----------



## panDUH1

Where will the sensor be located? Will it be higher than the venator?


----------



## Menthalion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *panDUH1*
> 
> Where will the sensor be located? Will it be higher than the venator?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Its just above centre.


----------



## abso

Beta has a WMOish look, will try that one for sure.


----------



## a_ak57

So just to be clear, how does the modularity work? To go from Alpha to Beta do you swap the entire shell (and can customize the sides further from there) or is it only the sides that get swapped? I had assumed the latter this whole time, but the Alpha looks to have an outright pointier back end a la the G100.


----------



## Argowashi

Unff those Beta and Gamma shapes. Old school, so sweet.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a_ak57*
> 
> So just to be clear, how does the modularity work? To go from Alpha to Beta do you swap the entire shell (and can customize the sides further from there) or is it only the sides that get swapped? I had assumed the latter this whole time, but the Alpha looks to have an outright pointier back end a la the G100.


The sides and top (the part behind the front buttons) are changeable. The side parts either include side buttons or not. I'm on my phone ATM so can't explain in depth, but there are more pic and info on the Facebook page.


----------



## anachronton

I can get good grip on my Ninox Venator because of textured sides. I hope this project won't forget that aspect. For instance Nixeus Revel is basically ungrippable for me. Fingers crossed for Astrum!


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *anachronton*
> 
> I can get good grip on my Ninox Venator because of textured sides. I hope this project won't forget that aspect. For instance Nixeus Revel is basically ungrippable for me. Fingers crossed for Astrum!


Use some grip tape and it's done, not too much of a hassle tbh.


----------



## thrillhaus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *senileoldman*
> 
> Oh, yeah. I also agree on the looks. It looks nice. Not flashy like Logitech mice. You could actually use this mouse at work, if you want. Just like with Zowie mice.
> 
> I really like how small and well placed the logo is. I also like that there's no cringey signatures, like on the Scream1.
> 
> It looks really, really nice and clean. I like it.


Are you saying Logitech mice aren't business casual?

Agreed on the Scream One. It would be okay if the signature was at least aesthetic rather than looking like it was off Teen Jeopardy.

Actually no, it would still be an awful design choice.


----------



## favoxhille

it's cool having a core pcb piece with a top optical sensor, and interchangeable shell parts to make the shape suit you, but how can it all go together without making the weight go up to the stars? and without risking to make delicate joints or even worse crappy magnets that screw up the weight balance


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *anachronton*
> 
> I can get good grip on my Ninox Venator because of textured sides. I hope this project won't forget that aspect. For instance Nixeus Revel is basically ungrippable for me. Fingers crossed for Astrum!


It'll use the same coating and smoothness as the top, so if its matte black then they'll be matte black and so on.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *favoxhille*
> 
> it's cool having a core pcb piece with a top optical sensor, and interchangeable shell parts to make the shape suit you, but how can it all go together without making the weight go up to the stars? and without risking to make delicate joints or even worse crappy magnets that screw up the weight balance


Well the shapes are really simple, so its not too difficult, and don't need to use any magnets. The weight is about 75g, but with all the wires in there at the moment its 82g, however its only the prototype thats full of wires, the final product won't be


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> What would custom firmware be used for anyway?


you realize that literally every firmware for any mouse is "custom"...


----------



## thrillhaus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> you realize that literally every firmware for any mouse is "custom"...


I think he means what use would the user have in modifying firmware.


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thrillhaus*
> 
> I think he means what use would the user have in modifying firmware.


^


----------



## Bitemarks and bloodstains

Let's just hope this doesn't end up like the aurora Kickstarter.
It amazes me people would back another Kickstarter by BST, fair enough the aurora and venator were great mice and if this new mouse has good reviews I'll have no problem buying one when it hits Amazon like I did with the aurora but BST lost all Kickstarter credibility IMO with the last one.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Let's just hope this doesn't end up like the aurora Kickstarter.
> It amazes me people would back another Kickstarter by BST, fair enough the aurora and venator were great mice and if this new mouse has good reviews I'll have no problem buying one when it hits Amazon like I did with the aurora but BST lost all Kickstarter credibility IMO with the last one.


I'm pretty sure he got all his credibility back with his activity this year.


----------



## lurkerguy

We're almost in the year 2018 and people are still salty about not receiving their Auroras?









It's true bst could have dealt the situation better back then but it was his first project and he has more experience in having the mice manufactured and distributed by now. Don't let the past mistakes from years ago influence people's decision in the current year.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Let's just hope this doesn't end up like the aurora Kickstarter.
> It amazes me people would back another Kickstarter by BST, fair enough the aurora and venator were great mice and if this new mouse has good reviews I'll have no problem buying one when it hits Amazon like I did with the aurora but BST lost all Kickstarter credibility IMO with the last one.


Well firstly I never ran a kickstarter before, the Aurora was just a pre-order. It was my first ever business venture, and I admit about 7 people had problems, and I had problems with PayPal where I didn't do enough research to know that every order needed tracking numbers associated with them, causing my account to be frozen (which made refunds impossible). But to be fair people did blow things out of proportion, saying that "lots" of people had problems and that PayPal froze my account because I was some kind of scammer, neither of which was true.

This time, I'm obviously not going to be using PayPal, and I will be using a Kickstarter partner to fulfill the orders, so it should all go a lot more smoothly.


----------



## PhiZaRoaH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitemarks and bloodstains*
> 
> Let's just hope this doesn't end up like the aurora Kickstarter.
> It amazes me people would back another Kickstarter by BST, fair enough the aurora and venator were great mice and if this new mouse has good reviews I'll have no problem buying one when it hits Amazon like I did with the aurora but BST lost all Kickstarter credibility IMO with the last one.


It amazes me that you are still or ever were granted mod abilities on this site.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Well firstly I never ran a kickstarter before, the Aurora was just a pre-order. It was my first ever business venture, and I admit about 7 people had problems, and I had problems with PayPal where I didn't do enough research to know that every order needed tracking numbers associated with them, causing my account to be frozen (which made refunds impossible). But to be fair people did blow things out of proportion, saying that "lots" of people had problems and that PayPal froze my account because I was some kind of scammer, neither of which was true.
> 
> This time, I'm obviously not going to be using PayPal, and I will be using a Kickstarter partner to fulfill the orders, so it should all go a lot more smoothly.


Thank youfor shutting @Bitemarks and bloodstains down. Which isn't hard to do at all.


----------



## Avalar

Gorsh guys...


----------



## trism

Oh so it's only the sides that you change... Then I lost all my interest. I thought you sold the electronics separately and complete shells to put the electronics into with possible additional shells later on. I don't see any point in receiving all the different parts when beta is the only one that looks good for my personal taste. Granted, they could still be decent but so far all the modular options with similar ideology have been quite horrible. I don't like shells that have detachable parts.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> What would custom firmware be used for anyway? Wouldn't you just want the one that provides the least latency, least amount of inaccuracies, etc.?


For fun and experimenting. Why not?


----------



## tygeezy

I'll be buying this. A higher senor position is a huge plus for me. I'd also like to see a version with maybe a textured side that is similar to the g403. Plastic grips are bit too slippery for me unless it has a sharp angle like the g303 has. Is BST aiming for a similar weight? I love the weight of the venator. I just wish it had a higher sensor position and the sides weren't as slippery.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Any stats on dimensions for all three shapes?

Any speculations for weight with any of the shells, with or w/o the cable?

What will us backers get?


----------



## senileoldman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> I'll be buying this. A higher senor position is a huge plus for me. I'd also like to see a version with maybe a textured side that is similar to the g403. Plastic grips are bit too slippery for me unless it has a sharp angle like the g303 has. Is BST aiming for a similar weight? I love the weight of the venator. I just wish it had a higher sensor position and the sides weren't as slippery.


Yeah, higher sensor position is a lot better than nowaday abominations that have the sensor centered at the bottom of the mouse where the mousefeet should be.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> @bst
> 
> Any stats on dimensions for all three shapes?
> 
> Any speculations for weight with any of the shells, with or w/o the cable?
> 
> What will us backers get?


@bst could you do special/limited editions for higher backers? like $250 for a gold or silver mouse. Like the silver Zowie's that are given to pro nerds.


----------



## ewiggle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> I'll be buying this. A higher senor position is a huge plus for me.


Yeah that's a huge plus for me too. That + the weight. Oh man, if this shell is solid, it might knock out my current top mouse.


----------



## xmr1

Shapes look pretty good although I'm a bit concerned that the modular design is going to feel worse than a solid cohesive unit. Also would much prefer concave main buttons.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> @bst
> 
> Any stats on dimensions for all three shapes?
> 
> Any speculations for weight with any of the shells, with or w/o the cable?


The alpha shape is 58mm wide, 133mm long, 39mm high (beta is the same except the width is 68mm at the back). The reason for the length is there is 1cm of button overhang at the front so people with long fingers don't have them dangle over the edge. The weight is hard to be exact about at the moment, but it should be under 80g. (the prototype is coming out at 82g, but its full of wires and a teensy etc).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> What will us backers get?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *senileoldman*
> 
> @bst could you do special/limited editions for higher backers? like $250 for a gold or silver mouse. Like the silver Zowie's that are given to pro nerds.


I have to firstly say, that basically, the factory (or pretty much any mouse factory) doesn't like anything "special", they just want to make 1000+ units that are exactly the same. As soon as you start changing things or adding special things, it confuses them. So for that reason I will try to keep it simple.

Last time I asked the factory for different colours, their answer was "1000pcs MOQ"







But it should be possible, they will just want more for it. I don't think there will be any big problem with that. I'll also see if they'll do custom logos, but that might come with a minimum amount of mice.

There will of course be the early bird offer, so if you're one of the first you'll get a discount.

I was going to do mouse mats, but I don't really want to, because its something else that can go wrong (or get delayed), it adds to the costs, and just overall it complicates things.

I could make a beta-test offer, but it would be limited... you would get the beta test mouse and the final product. So basically, a chance to get it early, but, it won't be cheap.

I can easily do things like have your name/handle printed on the instruction manual or box.

I could go crazy and offer custom components and firmware... I could do it... but don't think I will, I think that its just not good enough for all the potential complication it could cause.

If you have any ideas, feel free to ask, maybe theres something really cool I haven't thought of


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The alpha shape is 58mm wide, 133mm long, 39mm high (beta is the same except the width is 68mm at the back).


Will there be a smaller version?


----------



## senileoldman

Oh, man. I really would like a silver/gold Astrum. I don't mind paying $300 or so.

Maybe after the Astrum is funded you could take a look into special editions and do another kickstarter for a smaller group of backers that are also interested in something like this.

I really can't think of anything else I'd like. I know you closely watch the forum and know what flaw most mice have nowadays in terms of firmware and so on, and the 3360 is pretty much flawless already, so I really don't know.

Can't wait to have one in my hands.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> Shapes look pretty good although I'm a bit concerned that the modular design is going to feel worse than a solid cohesive unit. Also would much prefer concave main buttons.


I'm surprised how good the prototype feels, even though its 3D printed. It doesn't creak or rattle at all. Can't even activate the side buttons by squeezing the sides in hard (and I mean hard!) because it won't squeeze at all. Its like a rock









The company who designed the way it fits together usually designs bumpers for big car makes like Ford (they designed the new Fiesta's bumper, at least, the functional side of it), so they are used to making sure things are supported properly and align nicely. I tried freelancers before and wasted quite a bit of time with them, so ended up going with a proper company, who are way, way, way, way more expensive but they are good.

All the parts which are removable are 2mm thick, so they're really strong. But, I understand the scepticism, I wasn't really very confident at the beginning either, but it really does work well. I mean most mice are made up of separate parts anyway, they just use more permanent ways of attaching those parts, like clips. The only real difference with the Astrum is that its made easier to disassemble and assemble, but the parts end up attaching in a similar way (and just as strong) as if it wasn't modular.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

I'm currently using the Nixeus Revel and fined it to big.
Something more along the size of the FK2. The Nixeus Revel is more like the FK1 in terms of sizing.
Will it be possible to set it up as an ambi with the shape more like this ) (.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *0mega1Spawn*
> 
> Will there be a smaller version? I'm currently using the Nixeus Revel and fined it to big.
> Something more along the size of the FK2. The Nixeus Revel is more like the FK1 in terms of sizing.
> Will it be possible to set it up as an ambi with the shape more like this ) (.


Yes, if the Astrum reaches its goal, I will launch its sister kickstarter, the Astrum S, which is about 93% of the size of the Astrum. 93% doesn't sound like much but it reduces the dimensions to:

123mm x 54 x 36 (the beta shape would be 123mm x 63 x 36).

The length is almost the same as a Revel there, but the rest is much smaller (it will feel more like 116mm long). I have made the proportions on this mouse a bit different to usual... so there is more button overhang. I don't think it causes issues to have a bit more length at the front, but it can make things more comfortable for people who need it.

Not sure what you mean with the last question, is ) ( looking from the top down?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *senileoldman*
> 
> Oh, man. I really would like a silver/gold Astrum. I don't mind paying $300 or so.
> 
> Maybe after the Astrum is funded you could take a look into special editions and do another kickstarter for a smaller group of backers that are also interested in something like this.
> 
> I really can't think of anything else I'd like. I know you closely watch the forum and know what flaw most mice have nowadays in terms of firmware and so on, and the 3360 is pretty much flawless already, so I really don't know.
> 
> Can't wait to have one in my hands.


I just talked about it with the factory. They said I can do 5 special colours, I might be able to push them for more, but they will do it. We did talk about letting people have ANY colour, but decided it would get confusing. So yes, the kickstarter will have special colours.

They can do the gold colour, they already make this one:


I'll put special colours up for voting soon. I'll pay for a sponsored thread on here in order to do it. Part of the rules of that is I have to offer prizes









On a sadder note, I can't get D2F-F-3-7 switches for the front buttons, they stopped production







So I'm not sure whether to go for D2FC-F-K(50M) or D2F-01F. The side buttons are D2F-01F though (theyre the only 90 degree Omrons anyway).


----------



## senileoldman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yes, if the Astrum reaches its goal, I will launch its sister kickstarter, the Astrum S, which is about 93% of the size of the Astrum. 93% doesn't sound like much but it reduces the dimensions to:
> 
> 123mm x 54 x 36 (the beta shape would be 123mm x 63 x 36).
> 
> The length is almost the same as a Revel there, but the rest is much smaller (it will feel more like 116mm long). I have made the proportions on this mouse a bit different to usual... so there is more button overhang. I don't think it causes issues to have a bit more length at the front, but it can make things more comfortable for people who need it.
> 
> Not sure what you mean with the last question, is ) ( looking from the top down?
> I just talked about it with the factory. They said I can do 5 special colours, I might be able to push them for more, but they will do it. We did talk about letting people have ANY colour, but decided it would get confusing. So yes, the kickstarter will have special colours.
> 
> They can do the gold colour, they already make this one:
> 
> 
> I'll put special colours up for voting soon. I'll pay for a sponsored thread on here in order to do it. Part of the rules of that is I have to offer prizes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On a sadder note, I can't get D2F-F-3-7 switches for the front buttons, they stopped production
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm not sure whether to go for D2FC-F-K(50M) or D2F-01F. The side buttons are D2F-01F though (theyre the only 90 degree Omrons anyway).


AAAAAAAHHHHHHH







. Can't wait for the kickstarter and the voting.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I'm surprised how good the prototype feels, even though its 3D printed. It doesn't creak or rattle at all. Can't even activate the side buttons by squeezing the sides in hard (and I mean hard!) because it won't squeeze at all. Its like a rock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The company who designed the way it fits together usually designs bumpers for big car makes like Ford (they designed the new Fiesta's bumper, at least, the functional side of it), so they are used to making sure things are supported properly and align nicely. I tried freelancers before and wasted quite a bit of time with them, so ended up going with a proper company, who are way, way, way, way more expensive but they are good.
> 
> All the parts which are removable are 2mm thick, so they're really strong. But, I understand the scepticism, I wasn't really very confident at the beginning either, but it really does work well. I mean most mice are made up of separate parts anyway, they just use more permanent ways of attaching those parts, like clips. The only real difference with the Astrum is that its made easier to disassemble and assemble, but the parts end up attaching in a similar way (and just as strong) as if it wasn't modular.


Sounds good. Glad to hear you did it the right way rather than the most affordable way.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Not sure what you mean with the last question, is ) ( looking from the top down?


Yes.
Like in the Revel where the middle is the narrowest point the front is slightly wider and the back is the widest.


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Not sure what you mean with the last question, is ) ( looking from the top down?
> I just talked about it with the factory. They said I can do 5 special colours, I might be able to push them for more, but they will do it. We did talk about letting people have ANY colour, but decided it would get confusing. So yes, the kickstarter will have special colours.
> 
> They can do the gold colour, they already make this one:
> 
> 
> I'll put special colours up for voting soon. I'll pay for a sponsored thread on here in order to do it. Part of the rules of that is I have to offer prizes


Awesome! Idk if I like that glossy gold color on anything, though. Hopeful for the other colors! ;3

Tbh, anything that looks cool and signifies that early buyers got a special edition. Maybe let future buyers choose their own color from a preset, but Kickstarter backers get more. Maybe a two-tone gradient, different-colored shells, etc. Ooh! Maybe a number printed somewhere on the mouse that tells you which one you got of the original batch.









I hope the highest "package" on the Kickstarter, if there are several, isn't _too_ expensive.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> On a sadder note, I can't get D2F-F-3-7 switches for the front buttons, they stopped production
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm not sure whether to go for D2FC-F-K(50M) or D2F-01F. The side buttons are D2F-01F though (theyre the only 90 degree Omrons anyway).


The Japan-made ones, of course. D2F-01F I think the gray-colored button means a 10 million click lifespan, which is just fine.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yes, if the Astrum reaches its goal, I will launch its sister kickstarter, the Astrum S, which is about 93% of the size of the Astrum. 93% doesn't sound like much but it reduces the dimensions to:
> 
> 123mm x 54 x 36 (the beta shape would be 123mm x 63 x 36).
> 
> The length is almost the same as a Revel there, but the rest is much smaller (it will feel more like 116mm long). I have made the proportions on this mouse a bit different to usual... so there is more button overhang. I don't think it causes issues to have a bit more length at the front, but it can make things more comfortable for people who need it.
> 
> Not sure what you mean with the last question, is ) ( looking from the top down?
> I just talked about it with the factory. They said I can do 5 special colours, I might be able to push them for more, but they will do it. We did talk about letting people have ANY colour, but decided it would get confusing. So yes, the kickstarter will have special colours.
> 
> They can do the gold colour, they already make this one:
> 
> 
> I'll put special colours up for voting soon. I'll pay for a sponsored thread on here in order to do it. Part of the rules of that is I have to offer prizes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On a sadder note, I can't get D2F-F-3-7 switches for the front buttons, they stopped production
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm not sure whether to go for D2FC-F-K(50M) or D2F-01F. The side buttons are D2F-01F though (theyre the only 90 degree Omrons anyway).


I have short fingers, so the smaller model would definitely suit me. 133 mm is too long for me. The G303 is 115 mm I believe and it fits perfectly.

I'd really like to see you hit your goal so I can get my hands on the smaller model.


----------



## end0rphine

Bst do you have a time frame for the kickstarter launch?


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I'm surprised how good the prototype feels, even though its 3D printed. It doesn't creak or rattle at all. Can't even activate the side buttons by squeezing the sides in hard (and I mean hard!) because it won't squeeze at all. Its like a rock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The company who designed the way it fits together usually designs bumpers for big car makes like Ford (they designed the new Fiesta's bumper, at least, the functional side of it), so they are used to making sure things are supported properly and align nicely. I tried freelancers before and wasted quite a bit of time with them, so ended up going with a proper company, who are way, way, way, way more expensive but they are good.
> 
> All the parts which are removable are 2mm thick, so they're really strong. But, I understand the scepticism, I wasn't really very confident at the beginning either, but it really does work well. I mean most mice are made up of separate parts anyway, they just use more permanent ways of attaching those parts, like clips. The only real difference with the Astrum is that its made easier to disassemble and assemble, but the parts end up attaching in a similar way (and just as strong) as if it wasn't modular.


Question about this: The Alpha is the core of the mouse correct? So that means if I use this I won't have to attach another part (actually it looks like I will leave one part off: the right buttons) and worry about any rattle?
Are the left buttons detachable too or fixed? (again because of rattle worries)


----------



## bst

false
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *end0rphine*
> 
> Bst do you have a time frame for the kickstarter launch?


Probably late January, not much left to do now.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> Question about this: The Alpha is the core of the mouse correct? So that means if I use this I won't have to attach another part (actually it looks like I will leave one part off: the right buttons) and worry about any rattle?
> Are the left buttons detachable too or fixed? (again because of rattle worries)


Alpha isn't the core, the core is an inner shell which is attached to the base. I just haven't shown it yet because theres some things I want to revise on it. So it doesn't really matter which shape you use, they all work in the same way.

The side buttons are attached directly behind and ON the side part which has them, they are permanently fixed on there. If you don't want side buttons then you use the identical side part which has no side buttons. Otherwise if they were buttons that you somehow pop out, you'd have to put ugly and potentially uncomfortable blanks in there.

Don't worry about rattles, they won't happen, I promise. The people who designed the interior of the mouse are one of the top industrial design companies in England. They really know what they're doing. Also, they are local to me, so I go down there and we have the mouse in front of us and we talk about it, and I can demonstrate things right in front of them, it really makes the whole process a lot easier.


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> The Japan-made ones, of course. D2F-01F I think the gray-colored button means a 10 million click lifespan, which is just fine.


Actually they have 1M lifespan. Although they have best feeling, sound and smallest pretravel they start double-clicking very often. I've changed mouse1 on my G900 twice this year. TBH I'd prefer D2F-01F but I think D2FC-F-K are better for mass product.


----------



## aCz-

bst, i adore what you are doing right now and how you consider a lot of peoples "needs" to make product good. I come from 3rd world country and my money is thight but I will prolly jump on kickstarted because I want to to success.

Questions about shape. Can you put similarities with other mice for every shape you have? alpha similar to = X , beta similar to = X , gamma similar to = X ? So far for me alpha looks similar to zowie ZA, beta more like zowie FK, gamma more like MS intel.


----------



## munchzilla

D2F-01F are way more satisfying to click than the D2FC I have tried!

which of the shells has the widest grip width and how many mm is it?

not sure I'll like this one because I really like the further-back hump of the Venator but it's quite a bit narrow where I grip it.


----------



## trism

Is the plan to still use AVR MCUs (more specifically the ATMega16/32u2/4)? Is the manufacturer responsible for the firmware or are you pushing qsxcv's (or modified) FW? How are you planning on doing firmware updates? I hope you have researched bootloaders too in addition to the firmware. A proper bootloader handles fault cases and a faulty flashing process does not brick the device. You can obviously bypass this problem by using the HWB stuff, but it's less professional.


----------



## bst

false
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m1hka*
> 
> Actually they have 1M lifespan. Although they have best feeling, sound and smallest pretravel they start double-clicking very often. I've changed mouse1 on my G900 twice this year. TBH I'd prefer D2F-01F but I think D2FC-F-K are better for mass product.


Yeah, thats why I wanted to use the F-3-7 which is supposed to have a higher lifespan. I probably will just go with the F-K's. They're not bad. I prefer the D2Fs but I do worry about their lifespan, even though they do seem to last longer than 1 million clicks. I wish Omron Japan would make some new D2Fs with high lifespan, but I guess theres very little demand for them these days.


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> even though they do seem to last longer than 1 million clicks.


It's a lottery. As I already said I had to change switches twice this year, and a friend of mine is using red Kinzu v1 for years and switches are still ok.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I wish Omron Japan would make some new D2Fs with high lifespan


The dream


----------



## zwergimpc

what happend with the last kick?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aCz-*
> 
> bst, i adore what you are doing right now and how you consider a lot of peoples "needs" to make product good. I come from 3rd world country and my money is thight but I will prolly jump on kickstarted because I want to to success.
> 
> Questions about shape. Can you put similarities with other mice for every shape you have? alpha similar to = X , beta similar to = X , gamma similar to = X ? So far for me alpha looks similar to zowie ZA, beta more like zowie FK, gamma more like MS intel.


Thanks, I appreciate that a lot









Alpha is similar to the Aurora/G100, Beta is similar to the WMO, Gamma is an ergonomic side for the beta shape, but you could use it on both sides, not sure what that would be similar to. But none of them are really very similar to a Zowie ZA. The hump is more central.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *munchzilla*
> 
> which of the shells has the widest grip width and how many mm is it?


They all have the same grip width at the front, which is 58mm. Gamma sides make the middle a bit wider. Its not really like the Venator.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Is the plan to still use AVR MCUs (more specifically the ATMega16/32u2/4)? Is the manufacturer responsible for the firmware or are you pushing qsxcv's (or modified) FW? How are you planning on doing firmware updates? I hope you have researched bootloaders too in addition to the firmware. A proper bootloader handles fault cases and a faulty flashing process does not brick the device. You can obviously bypass this problem by using the HWB stuff, but it's less professional.


The bootloader is still up for debate, I have looked into them quite a lot. Atmels own bootloader is ok, but kind of sucks because you have to use JRE (even when you package it into your own program). There is also LUFA, which looks pretty good.

However, the PCB design and firmware is almost ready to go (nothing major left to do on either), so all I really have to work on now is the bootloader, and theres a fair amount of time for it. I actually think the best thing I could do is contact the maker of teensy, his halfkay bootloader is so easy to use, and I've done hundreds of FW updates successfully (also, tested pulling out the USB plug while its programming, and it didn't brick the mouse, just let me reprogram it). The maker of Teensy is a really nice and helpful person, so I'm hoping I can work with him.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The bootloader is still up for debate, I have looked into them quite a lot. Atmels own bootloader is ok, but kind of sucks because you have to use JRE (even when you package it into your own program). There is also LUFA, which looks pretty good.
> 
> However, the PCB design and firmware is almost ready to go (nothing major left to do on either), so all I really have to work on now is the bootloader, and theres a fair amount of time for it. I actually think the best thing I could do is contact the maker of teensy, his halfkay bootloader is so easy to use, and I've done hundreds of FW updates successfully (also, tested pulling out the USB plug while its programming, and it didn't brick the mouse, just let me reprogram it). The maker of Teensy is a really nice and helpful person, so I'm hoping I can work with him.


As far as I know, LUFA requires a bought license if you plan on using it for commercial products. I may be pulling numbers from thin air but I vaguely remember a price of $1500. I am also pretty sure halfkay bootloader (in Teensy) is not for sale, because Teensy 2.0 is still an active product and he does not want to share the hex









You don't need to use FLIP to program the chip. The dfu bootloader is well documented.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> As far as I know, LUFA requires a bought license if you plan on using it for commercial products. I may be pulling numbers from thin air but I vaguely remember a price of $1500. I am also pretty sure halfkay bootloader (in Teensy) is not for sale, because Teensy 2.0 is still an active product and he does not want to share the hex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need to use FLIP to program the chip. The dfu bootloader is well documented.


The way I understood it, the last time I looked, is that you can use LUFA for free for commercial products, but you have to include the copyright notice somewhere, and $1500 is the charge if you don't want to. But I don't have any problem putting it in the manual for the time being.

You can get the Atmega chips with Halfkay on, its just that he charges lots for them. I would want to order them with halfkay and the FW already on for way cheaper. He'll either do it or he won't I suppose. Will find out soon









I wasn't too sure about DFU, have you tried it?


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The way I understood it, the last time I looked, is that you can use LUFA for free for commercial products, but you have to include the copyright notice somewhere, and $1500 is the charge if you don't want to. But I don't have any problem putting it in the manual for the time being.
> 
> You can get the Atmega chips with Halfkay on, its just that he charges lots for them. I would want to order them with halfkay and the FW already on for way cheaper. He'll either do it or he won't I suppose. Will find out soon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't too sure about DFU, have you tried it?


Yes, you are most likely correct about the license. I do remember it was somehow funky but that must've been it (not on comp atm and cba to google on phone).

Yeah no issues in asking. But don't be expecting too much









The dfu bootloader is the original one those chips tend to ship with for consumers. So yes I've used it.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Alpha is similar to the Aurora/G100, Beta is similar to the WMO, Gamma is an ergonomic side for the beta shape, but you could use it on both sides, not sure what that would be similar to. But none of them are really very similar to a Zowie ZA. The hump is more central.


Would it be possible to make attachments that make it like a Zowie FK.
So the Venator is like the Zowie ZA but with a better shape and the Astrum with the right sides is like the Zowie FK but with a better shape.
















And will the cable come wrapped around the mouse/in a loop?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *0mega1Spawn*
> 
> Would it be possible to make attachments that make it like a Zowie FK.
> So the Venator is like the Zowie ZA but with a better shape and the Astrum with the right sides is like the Zowie FK but with a better shape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And will the cable come wrapped around the mouse/in a loop?


I doubt I will ever make FK attachments. But maybe I will make templates so people can 3d print their own designs. Not that it would be an easy thing for just anyone to do, you would need to learn CAD if you don't already know it... but maybe you could wait and see if anyone who knows how to do it makes some.

The rear hump version depends on the success of the mid hump version, it would probably be two separate products, but I think it can use the same skeleton. So call it the Astrum R with delta/epsilon/zeta shapes. You could buy that and then buy the Astrum shapes without needing to pay the full price for the Astrum, and vice versa. Then you would have about 26 different ways you could make the mouse.

I asked the factory about putting the cable in the Venator box in a loop around the mouse, and they said they can't do it. I think they get the cables pre-prepared. I'll ask again though... like with most things it might just take some funding. But depends if the price is crazy or not.


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I doubt I will ever make FK attachments. But maybe I will make templates so people can 3d print their own designs. Not that it would be an easy thing for just anyone to do, you would need to learn CAD if you don't already know it... but maybe you could wait and see if anyone who knows how to do it makes some.
> 
> The rear hump version depends on the success of the mid hump version, it would probably be two separate products, but I think it can use the same skeleton. So call it the Astrum R with delta/epsilon/zeta shapes. You could buy that and then buy the Astrum shapes without needing to pay the full price for the Astrum, and vice versa. Then you would have about 26 different ways you could make the mouse.
> 
> I asked the factory about putting the cable in the Venator box in a loop around the mouse, and they said they can't do it. I think they get the cables pre-prepared. I'll ask again though... like with most things it might just take some funding. But depends if the price is crazy or not.


BSTGOD
I'd be up for the rear hump version as well, please make it happen some day! This could be the real final mouse for me haha.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> But maybe I will make templates so people can 3d print their own designs. Not that it would be an easy thing for just anyone to do, you would need to learn CAD if you don't already know it... but maybe you could wait and see if anyone who knows how to do it makes some.


Yes please. Contact points/areas would suffice but template is even better. Also there is plenty of people in the community who can use CAD so this shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> false
> Probably late January, not much left to do now.
> Alpha isn't the core, the core is an inner shell which is attached to the base. I just haven't shown it yet because theres some things I want to revise on it. So it doesn't really matter which shape you use, they all work in the same way.
> 
> The side buttons are attached directly behind and ON the side part which has them, they are permanently fixed on there. If you don't want side buttons then you use the identical side part which has no side buttons. Otherwise if they were buttons that you somehow pop out, you'd have to put ugly and potentially uncomfortable blanks in there.
> 
> Don't worry about rattles, they won't happen, I promise. The people who designed the interior of the mouse are one of the top industrial design companies in England. They really know what they're doing. Also, they are local to me, so I go down there and we have the mouse in front of us and we talk about it, and I can demonstrate things right in front of them, it really makes the whole process a lot easier.


I've had the original Logitech G9 with swapable shells. There was some minor rattle there and this thing came from a huge company with everything inhouse. So I am still sceptical, sorry.
Doesn't mean I won't support it though









Anything for that Aurora shape.


----------



## Argowashi

BTW, you putting quality Omrons in the sidebuttons like the G403 or are you gonna be sticking to low quality, nasty no-name brand switches?


----------



## robinunit

Does it have mouse buttons and can you hook it up to mac osx?


----------



## m1hka

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Argowashi*
> 
> BTW, you putting quality Omrons in the sidebuttons like the G403 or are you gonna be sticking to low quality, nasty no-name brand switches?


He said already - D2F-01F for side buttons.


----------



## Avalar

Lower lifespan or not, I'd pay extra for an Astrum with D2F-01F main switches. If The Astrum turns out to be a mouse I really like, I'd be willing to buy another one when or if it starts double-clicking.


----------



## Argowashi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m1hka*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Argowashi*
> 
> BTW, you putting quality Omrons in the sidebuttons like the G403 or are you gonna be sticking to low quality, nasty no-name brand switches?
> 
> 
> 
> He said already - D2F-01F for side buttons.
Click to expand...

Noice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> Lower lifespan or not, I'd pay extra for an Astrum with D2F-01F main switches. If The Astrum turns out to be a mouse I really like, I'd be willing to buy another one when or if it starts double-clicking.


It's laughably easy to replace the switches yourself. Requires minimal amount of soldering experience. Only bad thing is you actually gotta buy soldering equipment first lol


----------



## senileoldman

I don't know if it's profitable to sell it with switches with such a small lifespawn.

You could solder them yourself.

I personally, don't care that much about switches.


----------



## Argowashi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *senileoldman*
> 
> I don't know if it's profitable to sell it with switches with such a small lifespawn.
> 
> You could solder them yourself.
> 
> I personally, don't care that much about switches.


Most people buy a new mouse before a 1M Omron switch dies lmao


----------



## vanir1337

Most 20M rated D2FC-F-7N's die faster than D2F-01F's tbh. Chinese QC vs Japanese QC.


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Argowashi*
> 
> Only bad thing is you actually gotta buy soldering equipment first lol


Yeah... Gotta do that. Thing is, the only mice I've really enjoyed were Logitech mice and/or mice under warranty (besides the G303, but I have plenty of those), so I never needed to replace the switches. Idk how much basic soldering kit _that's worth buying_ costs; I was given a really cruddy iron once that I couldn't do anything with. Worth it?


----------



## ewiggle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> Yeah... Gotta do that. Thing is, the only mice I've really enjoyed were Logitech mice and/or mice under warranty (besides the G303, but I have plenty of those), so I never needed to replace the switches. Idk how much basic soldering kit _that's worth buying_ costs; I was given a really cruddy iron once that I couldn't do anything with. Worth it?


I remember someone told me it would be easy to solder on a headphone jack for my speakers. They lied.

It's only easy if you already have what you need and know what you're doing. For everyone else it's potentially easy, but most likely it'll involve every gotcha in the book. And gotchas are stressful so if you aren't up for some of that then I wouldn't.

Yes I got the headphone jack on but only later discovered that the solder I was using was the cause of all my stress. Apparently, there are different kinds used for different stuff. And the one I used just didn't want to bond to anything. It felt like I was trying to attach soap to plastic or something. Nightmare, but it's done now.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Most 20M rated D2FC-F-7N's die faster than D2F-01F's tbh. Chinese QC vs Japanese QC.


One of the two does not know how to do math then







. Statistics should show what is the reality AFTER QC


----------



## Menthalion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nyshak*
> 
> One of the two does not know how to do math then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Statistics should show what is the reality AFTER QC


So every switch made should be pressed 20 million times to see if they'd be dead before being sold ?


----------



## Argowashi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> Yeah... Gotta do that. Thing is, the only mice I've really enjoyed were Logitech mice and/or mice under warranty (besides the G303, but I have plenty of those), so I never needed to replace the switches. Idk how much basic soldering kit _that's worth buying_ costs; I was given a really cruddy iron once that I couldn't do anything with. Worth it?


Nah don't settle for some cheap no-brand name soldering station. I believe a really good, basic setup would cost around $30? I believe if you check around for mechanical keyboard custom build guides they have links to really, really good and cheap soldering stations.


----------



## bst

My soldering iron is made by Antex and its fine. Its got a pointy style tip which is good. There is a bit of a learning curve to soldering, the main thing is to be quick, the flux evaporates from the solder otherwise and it'll get stuck to the tip and won't come off. Other thing is to have the tip tinned which is basically just having a thin layer of solder on it, otherwise the heat won't transfer properly and it'll take ages to melt solder.

The things I use quite a bit are a tip cleaner which is like a wire wool inside a metal box with a hole in it, and a tip tinner, along with a stand to hold the iron when I'm not using it, a holder with crocodile clips, and a solder sucker. Most of this stuff you can get fairly cheap from Amazon. You want rosin core solder, that has flux already in it. Once you get all these things, and after you solder a few bits to learn, it become pretty easy.

Shopping list (you can probably get these things cheaper):
http://amzn.eu/f6R2Brk or something like this if you want to change the temp: http://amzn.eu/d4RkXJl but I haven't had any problems with mine.
http://amzn.eu/gYO8aep
http://amzn.eu/i12TEXl
http://amzn.eu/gGKNahV
http://amzn.eu/cjiyATw
http://amzn.eu/9wlGXoG
http://amzn.eu/eiwT9yE


----------



## JackCY

I was using D2F-01F Japan made Omrons in IE3.0 for some 6+ years of constant use, maintaining them with contact cleaner every year or two, they last forever when maintained just the spring gets nice and weak after so much use.
All the micro switches last about 1-2 years and then need maintenance, doesn't matter what brand or type it is. You would need some space mission worthy designed and manufactured micro switches that cost $100 a piece or something to get anything with better durability.

Resoldering switches is a waste of time and money, just get a <$10 electric contact cleaner and spray inside the switches, done for another 1-2 years.


----------



## senileoldman

You all need to understand that it wouldn't be profitable.

I think Ninox warranty is 2 years? The mouse should be working by then.


----------



## nyshak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Menthalion*
> 
> So every switch made should be pressed 20 million times to see if they'd be dead before being sold ?


Nah you take samples ofc. But if you take enough samples your results will describe what happens in reality, on average. As the name in "descriptive statistics" implies








Meaning: If there is a real difference between 20million chinese and 20million clicks japanese, then one of the other must re-do some stat classes


----------



## Tazzzz

Ninox aurora shape is the best. But sensor position should be higher like all zowie and razer mice. Basically you should be able to feel the cursor with your fingers because fingers give tactile sensations in claw and fingertip grip, so the sensor pos should be more intact with your fingers position to achieve better aim


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tazzzz*
> 
> Ninox aurora shape is the best. But sensor position should be higher like all zowie and razer mice. Basically you should be able to feel the cursor with your fingers because fingers give tactile sensations in claw and fingertip grip, so the sensor pos should be more intact with your fingers position to achieve better aim


on Facebook Ninox u can see the Sensorposition ... it's more forward ( but not too much







)
Edit :
btw I prefer lower position







, but I can handle multiple shapes and sensorposition (I 'm switching 1-3 times my mouse in 2weeks )


----------



## bst

Its about as forward as it'll go, any further and the scroll wheel would hit it


----------



## Avalar

Jeez bst, lemme pay you already. The hype is real.


----------



## KGPrime

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tazzzz*
> 
> Ninox aurora shape is the best. But sensor position should be higher like all zowie and razer mice. Basically you should be able to feel the cursor with your fingers because fingers give tactile sensations in claw and fingertip grip, so the sensor pos should be more intact with your fingers position to achieve better aim


Agree. It's the same idea as using a pen or pencil, and for claw or fingertip grippers in particular this is the 'point' of precision we are looking for. I would prefer the sensor under right about where the scroll wheel is on most mice.


----------



## Argowashi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KGPrime*
> 
> Agree. It's the same idea as using a pen or pencil, and for claw or fingertip grippers in particular this is the 'point' of precision we are looking for. *I would prefer the sensor under right about where the scroll wheel is on most mice*.


That's like impossible.


----------



## Tazzzz

That's nice. Based on experience using aurora i think mouse shouldn't contain usb keyboard device, it is polled at 1000hz and it causes unstable polling. Deathadder elite contains 2 keyboard devices lol. It's impossible to control spray in cs:go with it


----------



## KGPrime

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Argowashi*
> 
> That's like impossible.


Not "impossible" just impractical. You'd have to lose the scroll wheel. Possibly need a custom sensor ect. You can build whatever if you throw enough money at it. And i would happily trade the middle scroll for the thumbwheel design like on those mostly terrible Rat mice, which is probably the coolest idea i've ever seen on a mouse. Alas they were overpriced hunks of garbage, but i Loved that idea. Would kill a hooker for an ambi shape mouse with only right side buttons and a thumb wheel on the left, since i have never used left side buttons and they are basically useless to me.


----------



## Argowashi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KGPrime*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Argowashi*
> 
> That's like impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> Not "impossible" just impractical. You'd have to lose the scroll wheel. Possibly need a custom sensor ect. You can build whatever if you throw enough money at it. And i would happily trade the middle scroll for the thumbwheel design like on those mostly terrible Rat mice, which is probably the coolest idea i've ever seen on a mouse. Alas they were overpriced hunks of garbage, but i Loved that idea. Would kill a hooker for an ambi shape mouse with only right side buttons and a thumb wheel on the left, since i have never used left side buttons and they are basically useless to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah no you're alone on that one. Scrollwheel is used so much in daily usage by so many people you'd be losing out on a huge amount of buyers trying to satisfy you.


----------



## m1hka

I like high sensor position in MLT04 family and Alcor/MM530, but hate when it's too high like in G500. It's unusable for me.


----------



## trism

I'm a claw gripper and prefer Rival 110 position, gives me the best accuracy in tracking. I can't get used to FK's or KPM's higher sensor position. I played around a year with both of those and switched to Rival 100 back in the days - immediately tracked better with less over compensation. So, it is highly subjective and there's no "objectively" better position that works for everyone.

Granted, shape could have a factor in this too but I didn't find either of those shapes bad for myself. Wouldn't have used them as long as I did otherwise.


----------



## Tazzzz

G500 is a palm grip mouse. I think mid sensor position is better for claw and palmgrip and high position is better for fingertip. Based on intuition and popular models from mouse companies


----------



## cdcd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m1hka*
> 
> I like high sensor position in MLT04 family and Alcor/MM530, but hate when it's too high like in G500. It's unusable for me.


Sensor position on the HP Omen 600 is just below the scroll wheel and it's a bit too high for me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> I'm a claw gripper and prefer Rival 110 position, gives me the best accuracy in tracking. I can't get used to FK's or KPM's higher sensor position. I played around a year with both of those and switched to Rival 100 back in the days - immediately tracked better with less over compensation. So, it is highly subjective and there's no "objectively" better position that works for everyone.
> 
> Granted, shape could have a factor in this too but I didn't find either of those shapes bad for myself. Wouldn't have used them as long as I did otherwise.


From my experience a lower sensor position works better with arm aiming, whereas a higher one works better with wrist aiming. I did notice a lot of overcompensation on the HP Omen 600 with its very high sensor positiona and had to lower sensitivity a fair bit to compensate.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tazzzz*
> 
> G500 is a palm grip mouse. I think mid sensor position is better for claw and palmgrip and high position is better for fingertip. Based on intuition and popular models from mouse companies


Can confirm, fingertip grip indeed works better with a higher sensor position.


----------



## KGPrime

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Argowashi*
> 
> Yeah no you're alone on that one. Scrollwheel is used so much in daily usage by so many people you'd be losing out on a huge amount of buyers trying to satisfy you.


Yeah it doesn't really require an argumentative response telling me obvious things i already know, i'm just stating what i "wish" for in passing. You know things that will never happen, and for reasons i even accept.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cdcd*
> 
> Sensor position on the HP Omen 600 is just below the scroll wheel and it's a bit too high for me.
> 
> From my experience a lower sensor position works better with arm aiming, whereas a higher one works better with wrist aiming. I did notice a lot of overcompensation on the HP Omen 600 with its very high sensor positiona and had to lower sensitivity a fair bit to compensate.
> Can confirm, fingertip grip indeed works better with a higher sensor position.


Exactly right.
I'm very picky about a lot of things and mostly none of them are ever going to happen, but i do like to support innovation or at least someone taking a step away from the norm and trying something new. This mouse almost certainly won't be "perfect" for me even with as many options as it will have vs every other mouse on the market, but i will probably still buy one to support the cause. I want it to succeed because it allows for possible further innovation.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> You can see on the side view picture where the hump is (1st post).
> It'd be 123mm long if I remove the front button "overhang" (you can see a side profile in the 1st post), so it feels like a 123mm long mouse for the most part, but with longer buttons.


I just realized the Venator actually has the overhang. How does the length of the astrum compare to that of the Venator? Is there more overhang in the astrum?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> I just realized the Venator actually has the overhang. How does the length of the astrum compare to that of the Venator? Is there more overhang in the astrum?


Basically, the Astrum is 1cm longer than the Venator, and it has a similar overhang of 1cm. But its a bit more complex than that because the Venator has an angled front (if you're looking from above or below it), so at the sides its another 1cm shorter. But the Astrum has a straight front.


----------



## xmr1

@bst With this factory are you able to get hyperglide style mouse feet (pure white PTFE, curved edges) for the Astrum?


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Basically, the Astrum is 1cm longer than the Venator, and it has a similar overhang of 1cm. But its a bit more complex than that because the Venator has an angled front (if you're looking from above or below it), so at the sides its another 1cm shorter. But the Astrum has a straight front.


The Venator is about the perfect shape and size for me. The only thing I'd change is the sensor position and the sides to not be textured. I hope you do the s version because that is more my size.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> @bst With this factory are you able to get hyperglide style mouse feet (pure white PTFE, curved edges) for the Astrum?


Whatever they used on the Venator was amazing. The best mouse feet I've ever used. Then again I've never changed out mouse feet before.


----------



## MattKelly

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> The Venator is about the perfect shape and size for me. The only thing I'd change is the sensor position and the sides to not be textured. I hope you do the s version because that is more my size.


...and the Aurora is about the perfect size for me, so I too am crossing my fingers for the S version. In fact, I know more people looking forward to the dimensions of an S version than the larger one (not that there's anything wrong with large mice - I used them for years)... but I'll be so bummed if the S version doesn't become a reality for whatever reason. ???


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MattKelly*
> 
> ...and the Aurora is about the perfect size for me, so I too am crossing my fingers for the S version. In fact, I know more people looking forward to the dimensions of an S version than the larger one (not that there's anything wrong with large mice - I used them for years)... but I'll be so bummed if the S version doesn't become a reality for whatever reason. ???


@bst Here is how I grip the Venator. I guess that's classified as fingertip because of how far back I grip it, but it's more just pure fingers with my palm flat on the pad. I don't think the regular size astrum will work for me as this is most comfortable and I perform the best with this grip.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> @bst With this factory are you able to get hyperglide style mouse feet (pure white PTFE, curved edges) for the Astrum?


Its really difficult, I've tried asking before. Hyperglides use some different method to make their feet I think. So its like another little project in itself, will probably have to talk with a different factory who have the right machines to do it.

The feet on the Venator are Hotline Gaming feet, aside from not having curved edges I think they're nice. So tbh I will probably use them. I'm pretty sure I can get them in white though, so they're purer









The Astrum has pretty big feet, part of the reason I designed it like that is so you're free to add smaller feet from Hyperglides if you prefer them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> The Venator is about the perfect shape and size for me. The only thing I'd change is the sensor position and the sides to not be textured. I hope you do the s version because that is more my size.


The thing with the Venator is, because it has its hump further back, it feels like a longer mouse than it is, so the Astrum feels wider but it doesn't really feel much longer. So I think when deciding between the normal one and the small one, the main thing to think about is the height and the width. The smaller one will be about as thin as the Venator but it will also be a bit lower by about 4mm.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Its really difficult, I've tried asking before. Hyperglides use some different method to make their feet I think. So its like another little project in itself, will probably have to talk with a different factory who have the right machines to do it.
> 
> The feet on the Venator are Hotline Gaming feet, aside from not having curved edges I think they're nice. So tbh I will probably use them. I'm pretty sure I can get them in white though, so they're purer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Astrum has pretty big feet, part of the reason I designed it like that is so you're free to add smaller feet from Hyperglides if you prefer them.
> The thing with the Venator is, because it has its hump further back, it feels like a longer mouse than it is, so the Astrum feels wider but it doesn't really feel much longer. So I think when deciding between the normal one and the small one, the main thing to think about is the height and the width. The smaller one will be about as thin as the Venator but it will also be a bit lower by about 4mm.


I prefer mostly gripping with my fingers in a non claw. I don't like to call it finger tip because that doesn't make sense to me. On the Venator I like gripping around the flairs because it gives me something to hold on to. Plus the coating is slippery for me and it pushes the sensor up higher. I'm fairly certain the smaller model will be more ideal for me.

With this mouse though I won't have to grip it as far back because of the higher sensor position and swappable shells. Still, the smaller version will allow me to finger it further up the mouse.


----------



## tygeezy

@bst You are too far along with this product, but I was thinking if you're successful with this mouse maybe your next mouse could have an adjustable sensor position?

I'm not sure how that could be engineered, but maybe you could have it so it can slide along the y axis by 2 cm or so?


----------



## pr0l4nd

aren't hyperglides are too uncontrollable on plastic and glass pads? I play few games with them on cloth and they felt smoother and faster than oem WMO. I found this" I remember tox asking in-game where he could buy Microsoft skates. So that makes me think he only just recently started trying the hyperglides







"


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pr0l4nd*
> 
> aren't hyperglides are too uncontrollable on plastic and glass pads? I play few games with them on cloth and they felt smoother and faster than oem WMO. I found this" I remember tox asking in-game where he could buy Microsoft skates. So that makes me think he only just recently started trying the hyperglides
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "


The Venator is superb on the qck+. It's the only mouse I have with huoerglides, but I'm going to get those feet for my other mice now that I know that's what the Venator uses.


----------



## cdcd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> The Venator is superb on the qck+. It's the only mouse I have with huoerglides, but I'm going to get those feet for my other mice now that I know that's what the Venator uses.


Hotline Games, not Hyperglides.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> @bst You are too far along with this product, but I was thinking if you're successful with this mouse maybe your next mouse could have an adjustable sensor position?
> 
> I'm not sure how that could be engineered, but maybe you could have it so it can slide along the y axis by 2 cm or so?


I have figured out how it could be done, there are two main issues:

1- there would be a gap behind or in front of the movable sensor part, the only way to cover this gap elegantly is to move the most forward sensor position back, so if it had 2cm of movement, the sensor would need moving back 2cm from its most forward position, to make room for a cover (then, it'd be able to move 2cm even further back). But this means the most forward position is still quite far back. The easier solution to this would just include vinyl stickers for people to cut to shape and put over the gaps, but it doesn't come across as very professional (I don't like it).

2- Using clips would be unstable, and using magnets would be heavy, so it'd need to use screws, and they would have to be very small screws. Not a really huge issue, I can include spare screws in case any get lost, the bigger problem is people who screw them in too tightly, or people who change the position daily, could end up de-threading the plastic so the sensor ends up being loose. The way this could be mitigated to some degree is to have multiple screw holes on the sensor part, so I don't see it as big of a problem as the first one.

But doing it in a way which is lightweight and fairly efficient is pretty easy, because the gap between the PCB and the base plate of the mouse makes a nice kind of sandwich which the sliding rails for the sensor could fit between. When you unscrew the sensor, it'd move around quite freely, but it wouldn't go anywhere. Then, when you screw it in, it would clamp onto the base plate and be very secure.

I can do it, because the final PCB isn't made yet, so it is possible to do it. But if anyone has any ideas for problem 1, it'd be nice to hear them


----------



## xmr1

More trouble than it's worth tbh.


----------



## thrillhaus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> 2- Using clips would be unstable, and using magnets would be heavy, so it'd need to use screws, and they would have to be very small screws. Not a really huge issue, I can include spare screws in case any get lost, the bigger problem is people who screw them in too tightly, or people who change the position daily, could end up de-threading the plastic so the sensor ends up being loose. The way this could be mitigated to some degree is to have multiple screw holes on the sensor part, so I don't see it as big of a problem as the first one.


Anyone switching their sensor position on the daily has bigger problems than sensor position...

You definitely want to be using screws for your customization though. Especially things like sensor position that the average user wouldn't bother with, even having it so that it needs to be adjusted internally is fine if that's what it takes to not compromise stability and durability. Advanced customization options like sensor position and firmware could be pushed as advanced mods that are engineered in, but not made immediately obvious to the average user on first glance.

It would be pretty cool to aim for the ultimate tuner mouse here.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I have figured out how it could be done, there are two main issues:
> 
> 1- there would be a gap behind or in front of the movable sensor part, the only way to cover this gap elegantly is to move the most forward sensor position back, so if it had 2cm of movement, the sensor would need moving back 2cm from its most forward position, to make room for a cover (then, it'd be able to move 2cm even further back). But this means the most forward position is still quite far back. The easier solution to this would just include vinyl stickers for people to cut to shape and put over the gaps, but it doesn't come across as very professional (I don't like it).
> 
> 2- Using clips would be unstable, and using magnets would be heavy, so it'd need to use screws, and they would have to be very small screws. Not a really huge issue, I can include spare screws in case any get lost, the bigger problem is people who screw them in too tightly, or people who change the position daily, could end up de-threading the plastic so the sensor ends up being loose. The way this could be mitigated to some degree is to have multiple screw holes on the sensor part, so I don't see it as big of a problem as the first one.
> 
> But doing it in a way which is lightweight and fairly efficient is pretty easy, because the gap between the PCB and the base plate of the mouse makes a nice kind of sandwich which the sliding rails for the sensor could fit between. When you unscrew the sensor, it'd move around quite freely, but it wouldn't go anywhere. Then, when you screw it in, it would clamp onto the base plate and be very secure.
> 
> I can do it, because the final PCB isn't made yet, so it is possible to do it. But if anyone has any ideas for problem 1, it'd be nice to hear them


You would definitely want a solution where it's very stable and not going to end up with a lens rattle. I thought it could work on a rail where there are steps along the way. That you dial in. Now, I have no idea how to engineer that, but it would make for easy customization and being able to share settings with users. Someone can say I use astrum beta ix with sensor position -3 (for slightly lower position).


----------



## lurkerguy

People who are requesting the sensor to be positioned anywhere else but in line with your thumb are the biggest memers in this site and probably don't know what they are talking about.


----------



## senileoldman

Why would you want adjustable sensor position. Lmao.

Stop with this nonsense.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *senileoldman*
> 
> Why would you want adjustable sensor position. Lmao.
> 
> Stop with this nonsense.


Because just like how some people prefer different shapes some people prefer different sensor positions.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> Because just like how some people prefer different shapes some people prefer different sensor positions.


I am one of those.

I much prefer a sensor placed far up front, instead of centered.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lurkerguy*
> 
> People who are requesting the sensor to be positioned anywhere else but in line with your thumb are the biggest memers in this site and probably don't know what they are talking about.


You must be talking to yourself.

If you're a 'wrist-aimer', sensor position will be of great importance to you, on par with shape.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> You must be talking to yourself.
> 
> If you're a 'wrist-aimer', sensor position will be of great importance to you, on par with shape.


Not only that, but not everybody holds the mouse the same way or has the same size hands. This customization goes a long way towards getting it right for everybody, and would bring a great new feature that nobody has tried before.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lurkerguy*
> 
> People who are requesting the sensor to be positioned anywhere else but in line with your thumb are the biggest memers in this site and probably don't know what they are talking about.


If the sensor was to be aligned with the tip of my thumb it would have to be much higher than the ambidextrous Zowie mice have it.

The reason why you should want the sensor to be as far forward as physically possible is to give you more cursor travel from your wrist movements. Wrist movements are much more accurate and quicker than elbow or shoulder movements. The higher sensor position will allow for more precise tracking of small targets and quicker changes in direction for targets that dodge.

I feel like I can use a much higher sensitivity if the sensor position is closer to the scroll wheel than the back of the mouse. I can precisely move the mouse a few millimeters with my fingers or wrist without having to move the mouse quickly. The problem I have with this is sensors like the 3360/3366 feel less accurate when moving that slow.

I much rather have a mouse with the 3360 placed up against the scroll wheel (especially if it's a mouse with a single PCB design) than have a heavy convenient adjustable sensor board. The hole for the sensor is going to be huge: allowing easy access for debris, reducing bottom shell stiffness, causing glide to become annoying on soft pads and a requirement for a plastic piece to attach to the lens/sensor PCB for proper light direction.

First, give me a solid/rigid 70-75g mouse with proper firmware, side buttons and a great shape. Then it won't matter if there are customizable versions that are heavier or problematic. I would be happier to see the attention going to all the buttons' performance instead of designing customizable features. Like hinged main buttons that have no torsional flex, side buttons that don't have unnecessary movement.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> If the sensor was to be aligned with the tip of my thumb it would have to be much higher than the ambidextrous Zowie mice have it.
> 
> The reason why you should want the sensor to be as far forward as physically possible is to give you more cursor travel from your wrist movements. Wrist movements are much more accurate and quicker than elbow or shoulder movements. The higher sensor position will allow for more precise tracking of small targets and quicker changes in direction for targets that dodge.
> 
> I feel like I can use a much higher sensitivity if the sensor position is closer to the scroll wheel than the back of the mouse. I can precisely move the mouse a few millimeters with my fingers or wrist without having to move the mouse quickly. The problem I have with this is sensors like the 3360/3366 feel less accurate when moving that slow.
> 
> I much rather have a mouse with the 3360 placed up against the scroll wheel (especially if it's a mouse with a single PCB design) than have a heavy convenient adjustable sensor board. The hole for the sensor is going to be huge: allowing easy access for debris, reducing bottom shell stiffness, causing glide to become annoying on soft pads and a requirement for a plastic piece to attach to the lens/sensor PCB for proper light direction.
> 
> First, give me a solid/rigid 70-75g mouse with proper firmware, side buttons and a great shape. Then it won't matter if there are customizable versions that are heavier or problematic. I would be happier to see the attention going to all the buttons' performance instead of designing customizable features. Like hinged main buttons that have no torsional flex, side buttons that don't have unnecessary movement.


That's completely contradictory to what was said by this guy that researched this topic pretty heavily in the sensor position thread. I also tend to agree him that lower sensor position actually gives you more precision, but less mobility:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nilizum*
> 
> K, not sure if some people just ignore math in this thread or something, but I swear I just read posts here about people saying a front positioned sensor position gives them more *precision* than a lower one. What? What is this, opposite land? Guy might "feel" like they are being more *accurate*, but a lower sensor position is objectively more precise than than a higher one.
> 
> There's a reason why Steelseries positions their sensor positions the way they do. They realized they messed up on their normal rival/300, which is why they lowered the position on the 700.


----------



## tygeezy

Also, you wouldn't have a giant exposed hole. The hole that exposes the lens would be on a sliding rail, as you move it up or down.


----------



## popups

If I move the mouse less I will have less opportunity to make a mistake. A low sensor position will require more movement, thus more potential for mistakes or tracking errors. The higher the more movement requirement the more high speed flicking will occur in stressful situations, which results in overshooting.

I think one of the reasons MLT-04 users feel they are more accurate with those mice is due to them not being allowed to move the mouse around at high speed or make high G flicks. They have to be slow and generally smooth with their movements to keep the mouse moving within 1.5m/s. When I used those mice for competition I (and others) would use a higher sensitivity (or accel) than what we tend to use with current mice.

You are going to have to make a large hole on the bottom of the mouse for the lens to move around and there could be problems with sensor feet. That could lead to fluctuations in CPI and tracking quality. Plus, the plastic could bend and touch the pad more than it already does with current mice, thus a weight increase is most likely.

Sure, you can design a mouse with an adjustable sensor PCB. It's too much trouble for a mouse that is supposed to be light, strong, cheap, consistent and simple. I can see someone like Mad Catz making a RAT mouse that will give you an adjustable exterior, weight and sensor position. I never thought a WMO replacement was ever to be like that. The grip panels are already taking away from the ideal...


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> If I move the mouse less I will have less opportunity to make a mistake. A low sensor position will require more movement, thus more potential for mistakes or tracking errors. The higher the more movement requirement the more high speed flicking will occur in stressful situations, which results in overshooting.
> 
> I think one of the reasons MLT-04 users feel they are more accurate with those mice is due to them not being allowed to move the mouse around at high speed or make high G flicks. They have to be slow and generally smooth with their movements to keep the mouse moving within 1.5m/s. When I used those mice for competition I (and others) would use a higher sensitivity (or accel) than what we tend to use with current mice.
> 
> You are going to have to make a large hole on the bottom of the mouse for the lens to move around and there could be problems with sensor feet. That could lead to fluctuations in CPI and tracking quality. Plus, the plastic could bend and touch the pad more than it already does with current mice, thus a weight increase is most likely.
> 
> Sure, you can design a mouse with an adjustable sensor PCB. It's too much trouble for a mouse that is supposed to be light, strong, cheap, consistent and simple. I can see someone like Mad Catz making a RAT mouse that will give you an adjustable exterior, weight and sensor position. I never thought a WMO replacement was ever to be like that. The grip panels are already taking away from the ideal...


But that contradicts what you said previously about being able to play with a higher sensitivity with a higher position sensor. It's actually the opposite, you would need to play with a lower sensitivity since it's traveling a larger distance in an arc up top.

With a lower position you can turn the sensitivity higher because it travels a shorter distance in an arc, but you can get faster arm movement due to playing with a higher sensitivity to get similar wrist movement.

That statement about more tracking errors doesn't make sense to me. You would turn your sensitivity up so you could get the same degree of turn from a lower position which would actually give it less chance for errors; which is something I wouldn't be concerned about either way with a clean mousepad and a good sensor.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daniel0731ex*
> 
> Just beware of framerate transition and we'll be gucci.
> 
> Doing accel on MCU eliminates error caused by aliasing artifact between unsynchronized USB polling and sensor framerate.


yea but 3360's highest framerate mode goes to ~12000fps so the mcu's main loop would have to run at least that fast in order to avoid having 2 frames' motion in one read. i think it might be possible.
regardless it would be a little tricky to define a smooth accel curve because of the various framerate modes; the mouse would have to know which mode it is in


----------



## qsxcv

for the bootloader, i would avoid going with teensy's because of the price.
actually you can probably get away with using a lower-tier mcu than the atmega32u4. the atmega8u2 or 16u2 are probably sufficient. (to anyone wondering, no this does not affect mouse performance. the lower-tier mcu's just have fewer pins and fewer features)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> You want rosin core solder, that has flux already in it. Once you get all these things, and after you solder a few bits to learn, it become pretty easy.


i use kester 245. so much nicer than sticky rosin.
thinner solder is generally better
a flux pen is always helpful (i use kester 951).
watch this guy's videos to learn technique: https://www.youtube.com/user/jkgamm041/videos


----------



## gipetto

I personally don't agree with the adjustable sensor meme due to increased weight, cost, potential for breakage of internal wiring and negligible return. However as an alternative there could be dual sensors, one in the middle of the mouse and one at the rear and use trigonometry to calculate a virtual sensor position underneath the front, anywhere desired or even entirely outside the mouse.

obviously the virtual sensor would be most accurate between both existing sensors but the degradation would not be severe. there was a twin eye mouse sold at one time but one of its sensors was laser so it would not be comparable.


----------



## bst

This is probably an over simplification, but wouldn't an easy way to simulate a forward or rearward sensor position just be to change the horizontal:vertical sensitivity ratio?

So if you have 400 DPI, and the sensor is more towards the rear, then to simulate a more forward sensor position, just increase the horizontal sensitivity (eg to 500 DPI). Or if the sensor is forward and you want it to feel more rearward, then decrease the horizontal sensitivity.

Because all you're really doing by having a forward sensor position is to make the sensor travel further for the same amount of movement, which is exactly what sensitivity does anyway. Fair enough there is a bit of complication involved with the arc and so on, but I'm not sure it makes things that different (forward sensor pos vs rearward sensor pos with higher horizontal sens).


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> for the bootloader, i would avoid going with teensy's because of the price.
> actually you can probably get away with using a lower-tier mcu than the atmega32u4. the atmega8u2 or 16u2 are probably sufficient. (to anyone wondering, no this does not affect mouse performance. the lower-tier mcu's just have fewer pins and fewer features)


Yeah, I designed a schematic with the 32U2, but if I use 3 pin debounce then I need to go with the higher pin count, because I used nearly all 32 pins on the 32U2 with normal debounce (pic doesn't show the 3 pins connected for RGB). But I'm not sure about using a lower tier MCU because I don't want to run out of space, the 8U2 only has a quarter of the program memory and half the EEPROM of the 32U2, I think my hex file already uses 27% of the 32U4 program mem.


----------



## gipetto

>So if you have 400 DPI, and the sensor is more towards the rear, then to simulate a more forward sensor position, just increase the horizontal sensitivity (eg to 500 DPI). Or if the sensor is forward and you want it to feel more rearward, then decrease the horizontal sensitivity.

I just tried out 2x 1y axis sensitivity in a mouse. It is plausible but you're counteracting muscle memory adaptions. it's like lifting an empty carton of milk up when you think its full, instant brain fart. bear in mind, however that each joint in the arm works at a natural sensitivity, the wrist works at a high dpi and the elbow works at a low dpi.

modifying a mouse in the x axis mainly counteracts the wrist and not the elbow, because the wrist movement is not proportional to the elbow movement. when i move a mouse I first move the wrist, then I add in the elbow movement when the wrist comes to its maximum.

edit I had a think about using two sensors in a mouse and realised it wouldn't work because as one sensor occasionally skipped the virtual sensor position would drift over time. I drove a teleporter with a similar problem. there were two steering axles and over time the axles would drift to point in the same direction and move sideways like a crab. like this video


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gipetto*
> 
> >So if you have 400 DPI, and the sensor is more towards the rear, then to simulate a more forward sensor position, just increase the horizontal sensitivity (eg to 500 DPI). Or if the sensor is forward and you want it to feel more rearward, then decrease the horizontal sensitivity.
> 
> I just tried out 2x 1y axis sensitivity in a mouse. It is plausible but you're counteracting muscle memory adaptions. it's like lifting an empty carton of milk up when you think its full, instant brain fart. bear in mind, however that each joint in the arm works at a natural sensitivity, the wrist works at a high dpi and the elbow works at a low dpi.
> 
> modifying a mouse in the x axis mainly counteracts the wrist and not the elbow, because the wrist movement is not proportional to the elbow movement. when i move a mouse I first move the wrist, then I add in the elbow movement when the wrist comes to its maximum.


Well it would be a lot less pronounced than 2:1, its more like 1.2:1.

If you go from a mouse with a low sensor position to one with a high position, it also has the same kind of muscle memory brain fart effect, it just depends what you're used to. The experience I had when I went from the Venator (low) to the Astrum (high) was the same, I had to lower my sensitivity, but then, my vertical sensitivity was too low for me, so I tried only loweing my horizontal sensitivity, and it was ok.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gipetto*
> 
> edit I had a think about using two sensors in a mouse and realised it wouldn't work because as one sensor occasionally skipped the virtual sensor position would drift over time. I drove a teleporter with a similar problem. there were two steering axles and over time the axles would drift to point in the same direction and move sideways like a crab. like this video


Also theres the problem that two 3360 sensors would be expensive (would need two of the same type I would imagine), not sure how they both would connect to the MCU either.


----------



## tygeezy

Would adding an adjustable sensor even add much weight?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tygeezy*
> 
> Would adding an adjustable sensor even add much weight?


Shouldn't make any significant difference. I could give it a try, see how it goes. Its not that hard for me to do because I'm using a separated sensor PCB at the moment anyway. All I have to do is print off another base and a sensor holder.

But TBH I'm still not completely convinced about the whole "sensor position is important" thing, unless its too far back and won't arc properly.


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Shouldn't make any significant difference. I could give it a try, see how it goes. Its not that hard for me to do because I'm using a separated sensor PCB at the moment anyway. All I have to do is print off another base and a sensor holder.
> 
> But TBH I'm still not completely convinced about the whole "sensor position is important" thing, unless its too far back and won't arc properly.


I don't even care that much tbh.

Lol pleeeeease don't delay Astrum to add adjustable sensor position.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Shouldn't make any significant difference. I could give it a try, see how it goes. Its not that hard for me to do because I'm using a separated sensor PCB at the moment anyway. All I have to do is print off another base and a sensor holder.
> 
> But TBH I'm still not completely convinced about the whole "sensor position is important" thing, unless its too far back and won't arc properly.


Excellent, if you haven't already check out this thread. On the very last page a knowledgeable poster gives a good take on higher position which i'm in agreement with. I was on record here of preferring a higher sensor position, but that was really based on what I read before and after reading that thread and my success with the venator i've been swayed the other way. Anyway, an adjustable sensor position would just solve everything and would be amazing.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1522415/the-importance-of-sensor-positioning


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> But TBH I'm still not completely convinced about the whole "sensor position is important" thing, unless its too far back and won't arc properly.


5mm difference is enough to throw me off. i think it's fairly important.

it can't be simulated by changing horizontal/vertical sens.
sensor position essentially controls the ratio of the effectiveness of finger/wrist motion to that of arm motion


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> But TBH I'm still not completely convinced about the whole "sensor position is important" thing, unless its too far back and won't arc properly.


For me, I'd rather have a mouse shell shape that I'm uncomfortable with, yet still aim well with (sensor position high/front, for me).
So, in essence, sensor position takes preference over shape, in my case (simply because it always gives me better aim).

For my daily internet browsing and what not, I use a wireless, super comfy ergo mouse anyway.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontspamme*
> 
> For me, *I'd rather have a mouse shell shape that I'm uncomfortable with*, yet still aim well with (sensor position high/front, for me).
> So, in essence, sensor position takes preference over shape, in my case (simply because it always gives me better aim).
> 
> For my daily internet browsing and what not, I use a wireless, super comfy ergo mouse anyway.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> I don't even care that much tbh.
> 
> Lol pleeeeease don't delay Astrum to add adjustable sensor position.


I'm with you. With all the potential problems and delays I think it makes much more sense to attempt something like this later on once the normal Astrum is perfected. Maybe in a separate kickstarter? But obviously it's bst's call.


----------



## pr0l4nd

Being too ambitious isn't that good.


----------



## senileoldman

I agree on the delay.

Don't think it's as important as people make it out to be.

The brain is an incredible thing and everybody will be able to adapt in a few days.


----------



## bst

I don't think it will make it take any longer, or that its too ambitious









Just to show the idea I was thinking of - the sensor can't move up or down, or left or right, only back and forth. Once its screwed in, its clamped in place. This is the cutaway view from the front or rear of the mouse.


----------



## tygeezy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I don't think it will make it take any longer, or that its too ambitious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to show the idea I was thinking of - the sensor can't move up or down, or left or right, only back and forth. Once its screwed in, its clamped in place. This is the cutaway view from the front or rear of the mouse.


You are doing yeoman's work. I love it!


----------



## KGPrime

I had thought of an idea for a sliding sensor moons ago. More of a passing day dream, probably on the toilet







but i could see it somewhat clearly in my head. As far as measurements and caveats, i'm sure there will be but basically the sensor pcb is separate, and clips in a plastic frame that then sits or slides in a track.

Forgive the quick dirty mock up, i can actually do precision vector blueprints for guitars ect.







But it gets the idea across.



The plastic pcb "sled" is like just basically a "faceplate" type thing that clips to the bottom of it.


----------



## dontspamme

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I don't think it will make it take any longer, or that its too ambitious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to show the idea I was thinking of - the sensor can't move up or down, or left or right, only back and forth. Once its screwed in, its clamped in place. This is the cutaway view from the front or rear of the mouse.


Take my money already!














:thumb:


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I don't think it will make it take any longer, or that its too ambitious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to show the idea I was thinking of - the sensor can't move up or down, or left or right, only back and forth. Once its screwed in, its clamped in place. This is the cutaway view from the front or rear of the mouse.


So on the sensor would be a screw "line" instead of a normal screw hole?


----------



## qsxcv

haven't read thread carefully but @bst consider using nuts because simply screwing into plastic, things will wear out sooner or later.


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> haven't read thread carefully but @bst consider using nuts because simply screwing into plastic, things will wear out sooner or later.


What are those inserts for screws called? Like, the ones used as standoffs for motherboards, for example. That could work.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> What are those inserts for screws called? Like, the ones used as standoffs for motherboards, for example. That could work.


You can get these but the factory told me they are hard to install:
http://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/brands/dodge/threaded-inserts/miniature

Larger ones are being used for the rear cover though, I have to ask them if they can get the miniature ones.


----------



## somiao

@bst can we get a spring tension system to cut down on pre-travel as well?


----------



## aCz-

Does needs and questions are getting ridiculous. bst should be really confident in this product to even consider one of those needs but c'mon. Switchable sensor positions? Even this mice is mend to be some kind of self changable its still makes no sense to me why would somebody need something like this. Sensor in the middle gives best from both worlds. Most people even if they don't focus on they own movement use wrist and elbow/full hand. Changing sensor to be upfront or below middle will just make sense ratios awkward.

p.s. using only wrist can hurt your health as well.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *somiao*
> 
> @bst can we get a spring tension system to cut down on pre-travel as well?


I'm not sure it will be necessary, even when you take the spring out of those kinds of buttons, they work just as well. We done a lot of research about how to keep the buttons rigid so they stay in their place, so there shouldn't be any big issues with pre-travel.

There is also the issue that the spring loaded system might be patented, and also that it might cause the clicks to become very light.

Another idea I had was to use a small magnet and screw, which weigh a fraction of a gram: You put the screw under the button, into a cylinder, which then slots inside another cylinder in the inner shell, which has a small magnet at the bottom. They never touch, but just attract each other, with a force which is less than the lowest operating force and release force of the switch. This is easier to develop than a spring, and easier for the factory to install. But I still worry about it not being installed properly in some, which could cause problems (like either the magnet or screw not being all the way in).

Its a fiddly thing that needs a lot of testing and research, so, its better not to do it at all, than it is to do it badly. Its not that hard to update the mouse in the future with it, so thats probably what I'll do.


----------



## somiao

Glad to hear you have it figured out, not familiar with injection molding and tooling so you'll be the better judge, on an other note pretty sure the usage of a spring can't be patented, but the name on the other hand can be trademarked.

After the g102 I'm not sure I'll want to downgrade in terms of button feel, the only foreseeable problem in a spring loaded system imo is unequal button weight due to differences in the spring and tooling tolerances but your idea sounds fine too. I think what the majority considers as a good button design is one that doesn't add additional force required for activation from the shell, or "transparent" for the lack of a better word. Is the hinge system like the g900 a good idea in terms of implementation? That has it's own problems(lifting and sideways movement) but in terms of overall feel its pretty good.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *somiao*
> 
> Glad to hear you have it figured out, not familiar with injection molding and tooling so you'll be the better judge, on an other note pretty sure the usage of a spring can't be patented, but the name on the other hand can be trademarked.
> 
> After the g102 I'm not sure I'll want to downgrade in terms of button feel, the only foreseeable problem in a spring loaded system imo is unequal button weight due to differences in the spring and tooling tolerances but your idea sounds fine too. I think what the majority considers as a good button design is one that doesn't add additional force required for activation from the shell, or "transparent" for the lack of a better word. Is the hinge system like the g900 a good idea in terms of implementation? That has it's own problems(lifting and sideways movement) but in terms of overall feel its pretty good.


AFAIK, one of the main things that causes pre-travel is that the parts deform after being ejected from the mold, so, inside the button there are strengthening ribs making it very rigid, and there are also ribs behind the buttons, and the flexible connections are spaced wide enough apart to stop side to side flex. Also, I am investigating the possibility of breakaway tabs above the flexible areas, which would hold it in its intended place when it exits the mold, so by the time the tabs are broken off, the part has cooled in the correct form, and hasn't been deformed whilst sitting in the "output bucket" (whatever its called).

As long as the button doesn't deform much, then a spring shouldn't be necessary, since the tolerances for injection molding are tiny, like, less than 0.1mm (I think its around 0.02mm, but you have to look at all the areas where that tolerance applies and add it up, then give the parts that amount of space).


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aCz-*
> 
> Does needs and questions are getting ridiculous. bst should be really confident in this product to even consider one of those needs but c'mon. Switchable sensor positions? Even this mice is mend to be some kind of self changable its still makes no sense to me why would somebody need something like this. Sensor in the middle gives best from both worlds. Most people even if they don't focus on they own movement use wrist and elbow/full hand. Changing sensor to be upfront or below middle will just make sense ratios awkward.
> 
> p.s. using only wrist can hurt your health as well.


Everyone's got a different opinion though.

Some want it forward, some middle, some back. Theres never going to be an agreement.

I've made some improvements to the idea I posted earlier. I found a way to make the cover so its improved a bit. I'll give it a try in the next prototype. But there are still quite a few things that could stop it from happening.

- The MCU PCB has to be screwed upside down to underneath the side button PCB, because the MCU doesn't fit on the main PCB, at least, not if you want much movement for the sensor. Could be all sorts of issues with this.
- The micro threaded inserts for securing the sensor might not be possible for some reason (factory won't do it / can't order enough / delays).
- The design might not be strong enough.

So, anyone who wants it, don't get your hopes up too high...


----------



## Zhuni

I want it dynamic please so when you do fast flicks it goes to high position and when moved slowly it retreats. You have one hour to come up with perfect solution


----------



## gipetto

Apparently the teensyLC has 2 spi busses. that would make it possible to use two mouse sensors with the existing code, without compromising spi reads. I'd buy another pmw3360 board to try it out but the tindie store is sold out. I realised that tracking might not be a problem as it would reset to default whenever the mouse was raised. I doubt the drift would be much over 5 minutes, which is about the longest I go without lifting the mouse.


----------



## popups

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> haven't read thread carefully but @bst consider using nuts because simply screwing into plastic, things will wear out sooner or later.


Metal can be inserted into the posts for the screws during the injection/molding process. It will add weight to the mouse, but it is very durable.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> AFAIK, one of the main things that causes pre-travel is that the parts deform after being ejected from the mold, so, inside the button there are strengthening ribs making it very rigid, and there are also ribs behind the buttons, and the flexible connections are spaced wide enough apart to stop side to side flex. Also, I am investigating the possibility of breakaway tabs above the flexible areas, which would hold it in its intended place when it exits the mold, so by the time the tabs are broken off, the part has cooled in the correct form, and hasn't been deformed whilst sitting in the "output bucket" (whatever its called).
> 
> As long as the button doesn't deform much, then a spring shouldn't be necessary, since the tolerances for injection molding are tiny, like, less than 0.1mm (I think its around 0.02mm, but you have to look at all the areas where that tolerance applies and add it up, then give the parts that amount of space).


I like the idea of more rigid separate button pieces and a hinge. It's much easier than trying to get the plastic button piece to bend in the right places and not at the wrong places. Downside is added weight.

I remember when some of my mice would get worn I would have to bend the the buttons up so it would feel more new.


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> What are those inserts for screws called? Like, the ones used as standoffs for motherboards, for example. That could work.
> 
> 
> 
> You can get these but the factory told me they are hard to install:
> http://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/brands/dodge/threaded-inserts/miniature
> 
> Larger ones are being used for the rear cover though, I have to ask them if they can get the miniature ones.
Click to expand...

uhh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(hardware)
can't be too hard right?
if you want it so that the user doesn't have to open the shell to unscrew, just have some plastic inside that prevents the nut from rotating. idk that might get too bulky perhaps


----------



## popups

It would be optimal if there was 2 versions. The first one not having side panels or adjustable sensor position and the second that has those features. The featureless one will be much lighter, reliable and easier to produce. I think he could make more money that way.

The featured packed version could be given a premium price; it should sell fine in the Western world. The featureless version could sell well world wide if the size is right. If he starts out with the feature packed version set at a low price to compete with major companies, where do you go from there?


----------



## MattKelly

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It would be optimal if there was 2 versions. The first one not having side panels or adjustable sensor position and the second that has those features. The featureless one will be much lighter, reliable and easier to produce. I think he could make more money that way.
> 
> The featured packed version could be given a premium price; it should sell fine in the Western world. The featureless version could sell well world wide if the size is right. If he starts out with the feature packed version set at a low price to compete with major companies, where do you go from there?


A "featureless" small version of the Astrum would be incredible. I just want the basics done as well as possible - aurora shape, 3360 sensor, non-adjustable forward sensor position, no side buttons, _incredibly light_. Yes, please...


----------



## Avalar

All these ideas on the table, it would take forever just to decide which ones were included in the Astrum. Would be much better imo for Ninox to have several mice, and become a serious player in the gaming mouse market; with ideas, like those mentioned previously, stemming from a community more meticulous about their mice than any other.

not some eSports pro player crap for once


----------



## qsxcv

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> It would be optimal if there was 2 versions


i somewhat agree but i don't think he has the resources to launch 2 at the same time, so it's a matter of which comes first. i'd guess the fancier one would sell better so it would make more sense imo to start with that.


----------



## RevanCorana

Ahh finally actual innovation, not just the usual technical terms made up by marketing department, it's funny how for this to happen it doesnt take a huge corporation with limitless ressources but a single passionate guy.

But yea.. the combination of both things, sensor position and swapable shapes, there is great synergy in having both.
bcause if the shape fits everyone, the unique feature now becomes accessible everyone regardless what shape they like so that's a killr combo.
shape swap alone is nice but people who already figured out which shape they like could go with other options of the shape they know they like.


----------



## Avalar

ETA on Kickstarter? :3


----------



## vanir1337

I have a concern about this rocking from side to side and/or the modular side shells to hit the mousepad, if the design stays the same. Add feet on them?


----------



## lurkerguy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MattKelly*
> 
> A "featureless" small version of the Astrum would be incredible. I just want the basics done as well as possible - aurora shape, 3360 sensor, non-adjustable forward sensor position, no side buttons, _incredibly light_. Yes, please...


Agree on that. The very selling point of the mouse is the WMO like shape without side buttons but if you keep on adding useless features that add in weight and it surpasses the original WMO weight of ~82 grams, there are very few reasons to make the switch.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> I have a concern about this rocking from side to side and/or the modular side shells to hit the mousepad, if the design stays the same. Add feet on them?


You need about the same amount of force to tip it over as you would if it was all the way to the edges, so it makes no difference if I put feet there or not. I know it looks like it might rock side to side, but it just doesn't


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> You need about the same amount of force to tip it over as you would if it was all the way to the edges, so it makes no difference if I put feet there or not. I know it looks like it might rock side to side, but it just doesn't


Good to hear that, thanks!


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *qsxcv*
> 
> i somewhat agree but i don't think he has the resources to launch 2 at the same time, so it's a matter of which comes first. i'd guess the fancier one would sell better so it would make more sense imo to start with that.


Its a case of minimum order quantities. With the Astrum I "only" need to place an order for 1000, and its multiple mice in one. If I were to order every style the Astrum could do then it would be 1000 each x 13 = 13,000, then add the small version and its up to 26,000. So, its a case of 2,000 vs 26,000. So this way it could work well for a kickstarter, because I don't have to order lots, and at the same time it should appeal to more people than one shape. So in my mind it means theres more chance for success. The only thing that makes it riskier is that some people might not trust the modular idea, the only thing I can do there is to send out a prototype to RJN or something, but its not going to be as good as a proper injection molded version.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> ETA on Kickstarter? :3


Around the end of the month, it depends how well the next couple of weeks go. I guess I could launch it now, but I just don't want people to have to wait too long once they've actually paid.


----------



## gipetto

Have you decided on what firmware you're using? hopefully the firmware bugs will get ironed out before it goes into production. I've been trying to hunt down the side button issue that's crashing the linux mint and vista pc here but I lack the skill.


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> ...send out a prototype to RJN or something, but its not going to be as good as a proper injection molded version.


Good idea









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Around the end of the month, it depends how well the next couple of weeks go. I guess I could launch it now, but I just don't want people to have to wait too long once they've actually paid.


Alright, sweet. Thanks! ^-^


----------



## aCz-

Good to hear abou ETA.

bst I have a question about you and marketing. You can answer to it or you can just skip it if you do not wanna answer it. After venator how does look your marketing and how is small companies/(pretty much single person) can do in this modern marketing when there is razer/zowie/logitech ? Sending to RJN and some guys from overclock.net really will help you to get enough to be worth a struggle? How many copies of mice you have to sell to be worth ?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aCz-*
> 
> Good to hear abou ETA.
> 
> bst I have a question about you and marketing. You can answer to it or you can just skip it if you do not wanna answer it. After venator how does look your marketing and how is small companies/(pretty much single person) can do in this modern marketing when there is razer/zowie/logitech ? Sending to RJN and some guys from overclock.net really will help you to get enough to be worth a struggle? How many copies of mice you have to sell to be worth ?


I don't have much marketing at all, but its the chicken and egg situation. So just have to build slowly. I realise I can probably do more to market it, but I kind of want to take it slowly, its more fun. The thing is I just like running Ninox, and so as long as I can keep it going (ie not making losses), I'm already happy. Anything else is a bonus. I mean, even if I won millions on the lottery, I'd still do it. I don't want to stress myself out over it and ruin the enjoyment.

On another note, I made a model over the weekend for the adjustable sensor








It has 16 mm of movement, so you can adjust it (measured from the rear of the mouse) from 62mm to 78mm. I tried 20mm but its just too much to try and fit it.
The pictures show it sitting in a reference base, so thats why its yellow and not the real base of the mouse (its so the ID company can drop it in).

I took Qsxcv's advice of just using a nut, looks like it'll work well. Overall it looks like it might not be too difficult to do, but will see how it goes.


----------



## RevanCorana

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> I don't have much marketing at all, but its the chicken and egg situation. So just have to build slowly. I realise I can probably do more to market it


Well, judging from the evolutionary timeline eggs came before chickens.








Maybe a short animation to show the arm over wrist movement thing since it's quite obscure.


----------



## Wepeel

What does the ergo shape config compare to? Do you have any renders of that?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RevanCorana*
> 
> Well, judging from the evolutionary timeline eggs came before chickens.


Catch 22 then








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RevanCorana*
> 
> Maybe a short animation to show the arm over wrist movement thing since it's quite obscure.


I don't want to get into it tbh, its a can of worms (theres another saying!)








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wepeel*
> 
> What does the ergo shape config compare to? Do you have any renders of that?


Some pics were posted the other day, the ergo one is at the bottom (Gamma XX):
http://www.overclock.net/t/1635281/new-ninox-mouse-ninox-astrum-with-swapable-shells/100_100#post_26516859

Its kind of a ambidextrous ergo, its not a full ergo where the top is lower on one side. It works with the beta shape, you put it on the right (or left) side, so its convex rather than concave, and supports your hand more evenly.

So the config that would probably be most popular with that is: Beta:Gamma IX
That means: Beta shape on the left, Gamma on the right, and it has side buttons on the left but not the right.

Gamma XX is just the left and right ergo sides on at the same time, the 3D program I used to take the pics didn't let me mix and match


----------



## RevanCorana

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Catch 22 then


indeed


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Is the Beta:Gamma IX shape ambidextrous? The two sides look very similar in the renders..


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *0mega1Spawn*
> 
> Is the Beta:Gamma IX shape ambidextrous? The two sides look very similar in the renders..


Nope, its not ambi, if you look at the OP you can see overhead views of the shape.


----------



## Ephant

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yes, if the Astrum reaches its goal, I will launch its sister kickstarter, the Astrum S, which is about 93% of the size of the Astrum. 93% doesn't sound like much but it reduces the dimensions to:
> 
> 123mm x 54 x 36 (the beta shape would be 123mm x 63 x 36).
> 
> The length is almost the same as a Revel there, but the rest is much smaller (it will feel more like 116mm long). I have made the proportions on this mouse a bit different to usual... so there is more button overhang. I don't think it causes issues to have a bit more length at the front, but it can make things more comfortable for people who need it.


Wish it was slightly shorter... I can't blame you though. The FK2 size is more popular than the Kinzu size.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ephant*
> 
> Wish it was slightly shorter... I can't blame you though. The FK2 size is more popular than the Kinzu size.


The length is a bit misleading because of the 1cm button overhang at the front (which the kinzu and FK2 don't have), so it'll feel more like a 113mm length mouse.

One thing I might not be able to change is the width, it might have to be the same as the normal Astrum (58mm), because there isn't really much of a way to decrease the width of the PCB.


----------



## Leopardi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> The length is a bit misleading because of the 1cm button overhang at the front (which the kinzu and FK2 don't have), so it'll feel more like a 113mm length mouse.
> 
> One thing I might not be able to change is the width, it might have to be the same as the normal Astrum (58mm), because there isn't really much of a way to decrease the width of the PCB.


58mm sounds thin if the G100s is 62mm. I guess the slants on the G Pro is about 58mm if the top is the same as G100s 62mm. And the slants are what makes it too small :/


----------



## M1st

Actually, is it usable without sides at all?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Actually, is it usable without sides at all?


No, it'd be horrible to use without them.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> One thing I might not be able to change is the width, it might have to be the same as the normal Astrum (58mm), because there isn't really much of a way to decrease the width of the PCB.


Is it 58mm with the side attached?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *0mega1Spawn*
> 
> Is it 58mm with the side attached?


Yes, thats the width at the front of the mouse (or the width of the alpha shape because it doesn't flare out). The beta shape is 68mm wide because it flares out at the back.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Can we get some grip width measurements? You know, the numbers that really matter lol.


----------



## Aliandro1d

Alpha is straight so width is about 58mm for grip..................................................... this will apply to all the shapes unless u hold it far back


----------



## Leopardi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> Yes, thats the width at the front of the mouse (or the width of the alpha shape because it doesn't flare out). The beta shape is 68mm wide because it flares out at the back.


Oh crap. Maybe the additional height compared to G100s helps make it feel more wide then.


----------



## thrillhaus

@bst

What do you think about revising the feet to use a 4x small footprint design? I've found that the lower the overall surface area of the feet, the more consistent the friction between surfaces as well as over time as a pad wears/gets dirty.


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thrillhaus*
> 
> @bst
> 
> What do you think about revising the feet to use a 4x small footprint design? I've found that the lower the overall surface area of the feet, the more consistent the friction between surfaces as well as over time as a pad wears/gets dirty.


You could just do that with small replacement Hyperglide feet, or what have you. Personally, I like that the stock feet are large, seeing as I'll be replacing them anyway. If they were smaller, they might not fit some feet.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> You could just do that with small replacement Hyperglide feet, or what have you. Personally, I like that the stock feet are large, seeing as I'll be replacing them anyway. If they were smaller, they might not fit some feet.


Yep thats the reason I went large, gives people the choice.


----------



## RevanCorana

Nice touch to also allow to keep the original feet too for those who plan to open the mouse by having a single screw that's accesible without damaging the feet

Stock feet always have more consistent stopping power due to their shape conforming to the preexisting *molds* that are slightly caved-in. So the edges are never interfering with the glide.


----------



## Zakman

@bst

When are you planning on launching the Kickstarter for this? And if it's successful, when are you planning on releasing the Astrum?


----------



## vanir1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zakman*
> 
> @bst
> 
> When are you planning on launching the Kickstarter for this? And if it's successful, when are you planning on releasing the Astrum?


Read back and read back.


----------



## Kirisu

@bst

Looking for a shape close to G100s or Aurora, will the Alpha suit me?

I basically want a G203 with straight sides.

From the picture it looks really promising, but it's not always easy to tell.


----------



## Leopardi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kirisu*
> 
> @bst
> 
> Looking for a shape close to G100s or Aurora, will the Alpha suit me?
> 
> I basically want a G203 with straight sides.
> 
> From the picture it looks really promising, but it's not always easy to tell.


There is a difference which seems quite substantial though, G100s is 63mm wide / 37mm tall, Alpha is 58mm wide / 40mm tall.


----------



## Kirisu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leopardi*
> 
> There is a difference which seems quite substantial though, G100s is 63mm wide / 37mm tall, Alpha is 58mm wide / 40mm tall.


It does have straight sides tho, doesn't it? 58mm does seem a bit narrow, can one cheat some mm by using side grip tapes?


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zakman*
> 
> @bst
> 
> When are you planning on launching the Kickstarter for this? And if it's successful, when are you planning on releasing the Astrum?


I was guessing at the end of the month, but probably going to be mid Feb. I've been making some tweaks to the way the shells attach, which changes how the mouse is presented (in videos and so on). This has caused things to take a bit longer, but I think its worth it. I'll be getting the next prototype in a few days, which should be final enough to show in detail on the project page.

It'll take about 4 months from the end of the project to receive the mice That allows about 2.5 months to make the molds, order in parts/components, and test. Then 1.5 months to manufacture and ship.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leopardi*
> 
> There is a difference which seems quite substantial though, G100s is 63mm wide / 37mm tall, Alpha is 58mm wide / 40mm tall.


It feels like its wide enough though, probably because the sides are straight, it makes it feel wider. It feels quite a bit wider than the Venator.


----------



## k0fz

Can you make the buttons so that they go around the scroll wheel like on WMO and SteelSeries Sensei 310? I tend to put my index finger on the edge of mouse 1 on the right side.


----------



## SmashTV

Don't think they'll redesign just to accomodate one person.


----------



## k0fz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SmashTV*
> 
> Don't think they'll redesign just to accomodate one person.


He's possibly going to make adjustable sensor position and it seems to me that few people care about it. What I suggested must be a very small change in comparison and wouldn't ruin it for others. Also, is the current design final? I got the impression that it's not and that he's still open to slight changes, but maybe not.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *k0fz*
> 
> He's possibly going to make adjustable sensor position and it seems to me that very few people care about it. What I suggested must be a very small change in comparison and wouldn't ruin it for others. Also, is the current design final? I got the impression that it's not and that he's still open to slight changes, but maybe not.


A lot of people ask for the opposite, they don't want the buttons to wrap around the front of the scroll wheel, because they rest their middle finger there. So its one of those things where I just have to go with one or the other, and I chose to go with not wrapping them around, sorry


----------



## popups

The mouse sounds too thin for people who use a 1-3-1 grip. The FK is too thin for me. The AM is on the edge of too thin. Same for the WMO. The thinness sucks for using the side buttons with such a grip. I use m2, m1 then m4 as fast as possible. A thin mouse will move around in my hand when I do that.


----------



## MattKelly

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The mouse sounds too thin for people who use a 1-3-1 grip. The FK is too thin for me. The AM is on the edge of too thin. Same for the WMO. The thinness sucks for using the side buttons with such a grip. I use m2, m1 then m4 as fast as possible. A thin mouse will move around in my hand when I do that.


I use a 1-3-1 finger grip and love thin mice. I feel they really allow me to pinch the mouse quite a bit and be more in control. Then again, I don't use side buttons anymore.


----------



## popups

I don't mind if a mouse is shorter than the WMO if it's wide. I probably would prefer to use a short mouse over a longer one if it was wide enough. Usually you have to choose the longer mouse to get the extra width. The shorter mouse will allow me to move the mouse around in my palm unlike a longer mouse. Thin mice give me too much wobble. Plus, it will be lighter than having a long and wide mouse.


----------



## k0fz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> A lot of people ask for the opposite, they don't want the buttons to wrap around the front of the scroll wheel, because they rest their middle finger there. So its one of those things where I just have to go with one or the other, and I chose to go with not wrapping them around, sorry


Really?! Wow, sounds like a really weird grip to me. Oh well, not a big deal though. It's mostly a problem on smaller mice for me it seems, and Astrum isn't small, so I'll probably be fine.


----------



## thrillhaus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *popups*
> 
> The mouse sounds too thin for people who use a 1-3-1 grip. The FK is too thin for me. The AM is on the edge of too thin. Same for the WMO. The thinness sucks for using the side buttons with such a grip. I use m2, m1 then m4 as fast as possible. A thin mouse will move around in my hand when I do that.


Is the FK thinner than the AM? WMO feels a lot fuller in the hand than the AM to me.

What's a 1-3-1 grip?


----------



## Ricey20

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thrillhaus*
> 
> Is the FK thinner than the AM? WMO feels a lot fuller in the hand than the AM to me.
> 
> What's a 1-3-1 grip?


Thumb on the side, 3 fingers on top of the mouse (left, scroll, right button), pinky on the side.


----------



## Rhosta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> A lot of people ask for the opposite, they don't want the buttons to wrap around the front of the scroll wheel, because they rest their middle finger there. So its one of those things where I just have to go with one or the other, and I chose to go with not wrapping them around, sorry


It would be nice to at least have a ledge like the Rival 310 has.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MattKelly*
> 
> I use a 1-3-1 finger grip and love thin mice. I feel they really allow me to pinch the mouse quite a bit and be more in control. Then again, I don't use side buttons anymore.


Do you keep your thumb and pinkie clawed (i.e. the tips pointed towards each other)? You really don't want to make a curve to your hand (i.e. pinch with the fingers straight) and pinch because that's ergonomically very bad and causes strain. There was a video of a doctor talking about esports/gamers mouse movement and he stated this way.


----------



## Aliandro1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *trism*
> 
> Do you keep your thumb and pinkie clawed (i.e. the tips pointed towards each other)? You really don't want to make a curve to your hand (i.e. pinch with the fingers straight) and pinch because that's ergonomically very bad and causes strain. There was a video of a doctor talking about esports/gamers mouse movement and he stated this way.


? u trying to say claw is bad for hand health or what ????? quite frankly doctors don't know what they're talking about when it comes to specifics like this they will just rehash the same old "keep your fingers straight and palm grip the mouse" The reality is with time your fingers become more flexible with this grip and it's comfortable where as if i palm I tend to squeeze the mouse tensing my fore arm and putting more pressure on the median nerve. Claw more healthy confirmed by random OCN commenter. Sck my ass random doctor.


----------



## trism

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aliandro1d*
> 
> ? u trying to say claw is bad for hand health or what ????? quite frankly doctors don't know what they're talking about when it comes to specifics like this they will just rehash the same old "keep your fingers straight and palm grip the mouse" The reality is with time your fingers become more flexible with this grip and it's comfortable where as if i palm I tend to squeeze the mouse tensing my fore arm and putting more pressure on the median nerve. Claw more healthy confirmed by random OCN commenter. Sck my ass random doctor.


Where did I say claw grip is bad? If you read the post and think it a bit, I'd rather draw the conclusion that palming (or, not palming per se - rather pinching a thin mouse so that your hand makes a curve) is worse. Just like you describe.


----------



## abso

Will there be a beta test? If so how is it possible to apply for it?


----------



## Aliandro1d

I'm here to give my hand to science and apply for the alpha(test) monkaS


----------



## RevanCorana

delete


----------



## Leopardi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bst*
> 
> It feels like its wide enough though, probably because the sides are straight, it makes it feel wider. It feels quite a bit wider than the Venator.


The G Pro slants from 63mm down to 50mm, so yeah it could feel a bit wider than the G Pro in hand I think. But the G100s was pretty much straight right?


----------



## deadmage

Im all in for having the option to have a sensor adjustments option since its supposed to be a customizable light weight mouse anyway and its a feature that no ones done before and I think it can be advantageous , from what hes said there would be little weight added and in theory no design flaws (for an upwards/downwards option*) And as some people have been questioning the reasoning for just 1 example a player with a lower sensitivity, putting the sensor a bit higher up than the middle can allow them to do faster/bigger turns with there wrist and be capable of longer wrist flickshots without having to sacrifice the muscle memory and the fact that he aims better with a lower sens by going to a higher sensitivity which would completely change the very minscule movements of the hand for him, having it higher up could in theory give him more potential for those faster and bigger flick options he gets without him having to change his optimal sens for the movements that wouldn't be effected Its hard to understand for some at first and difficult to explain so everyone gets it.

For the sideways slide option that someone else suggested
Having a sideways axis option I think is generally bad, Like the reasoning for it is that people want the max "range" of there movements to be similar (because the hand can flex more to the left than the right.) kind of hard to explain but its a contradiction to the point behind it and I think its terrible for consistency since the ******* "balance", speeds and hand eye coordination will be inconsistent instead.. Like if your playing a shooter correctly there would be no benefit and no reason to not have a centered sensor on the sideways axis, Not to mention it would have design flaws from what he said about the idea for it further up

So thats basically my thoughts on why you should add a up/down adjustment option


----------



## Avalar

@bst

If you could maybe find out what makes the G303's main buttons _so_ good, and implement them in the Astrum, that would be amazing. 99% of modern gaming mice users and enthusiasts would be very grateful. I'm personally tired of companies not giving the main buttons a second thought. To me, the feel of the main buttons is as important as the shape. A palm-grip mouse with buttons on that level would be a godsend.

Fyi, I think the size of the buttons can play a big part in how they feel. The G303, for example, has the smallest main buttons of any mouse I've used, and also the best. My first Sensei 310, although it started doubleclicking soon, felt almost exactly like the G303's, and it's buttons are about the same size.


----------



## somiao

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> @bst
> 
> If you could maybe find out what makes the G303's main buttons _so_ good, and implement them in the Astrum, that would be amazing. 99% of modern gaming mice users and enthusiasts would be very grateful. I'm personally tired of companies not giving the main buttons a second thought. To me, the feel of the main buttons is as important as the shape. A palm-grip mouse with buttons on that level would be a godsend.
> 
> Fyi, I think the size of the buttons can play a big part in how they feel. The G303, for example, has the smallest main buttons of any mouse I've used, and also the best. My first Sensei 310, although it started doubleclicking soon, felt almost exactly like the G303's, and it's buttons are about the same size.


Seconded


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *abso*
> 
> Will there be a beta test? If so how is it possible to apply for it?


It'll be quite a small beta test, theres not that much to test, really. Just need a group of people who use different OS's, and are picky about button feel and so on. Once its a beta test, the shape can't change much, so its mostly small details that get changed. I won't bother with applications, it'll be invitational, its just easier.

I haven't checked with kickstarter yet (I say kickstarter but it'll probably be indiegogo since they're available in more countries) if they will let me sell beta mice, if they will, then I can sell some beta packs (in limited numbers because the PCBs are hand soldered) which just means you'll get the beta mouse early and the final one (in any of the available colours/coatings). It'll be an optional beta test, you don't have to give feedback, its just for people that don't mind paying more to have it earlier. If they give feedback though it would be appreciated.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Avalar*
> 
> @bst
> 
> If you could maybe find out what makes the G303's main buttons _so_ good, and implement them in the Astrum, that would be amazing. 99% of modern gaming mice users and enthusiasts would be very grateful. I'm personally tired of companies not giving the main buttons a second thought. To me, the feel of the main buttons is as important as the shape. A palm-grip mouse with buttons on that level would be a godsend.
> 
> Fyi, I think the size of the buttons can play a big part in how they feel. The G303, for example, has the smallest main buttons of any mouse I've used, and also the best. My first Sensei 310, although it started doubleclicking soon, felt almost exactly like the G303's, and it's buttons are about the same size.


I have looked into it, and I don't think the springs do much, they're ok, but I'm not going to bother with them. I think its like I said before, they need a lot of attention to make sure its done well. Else, they could actually be bad.

What I have learnt is that for a start, the buttons should be separate, as in, the left and right buttons should not be joined at any point. This reduces the risk that they become somehow out of sync with each other, as in, one sticking up more than the other.

The other thing is that at any point aside from the point where its meant to bend, it should be completely rigid. If for example you take a logitech button and try to bend it horizontally, it won't budge, but if you take a cheap mouse button, it'll easily bend. So what you have to do is make some room under the buttons so you have strengthening ribs running down underneath them, then add more strengthening to the rear of the button, which stops it from bending in the wrong directions. I think this is why shorter buttons work well, because they're naturally more rigid, but its ok as long as you strengthen longer buttons.

The other thing you have to do is make sure the inner shell is screwed down, near as possible to where the switches are. Even a small amount of gap (0.3mm even), flex or movement can translate into pre-travel, post-travel, or other side effects. If clips are used, then its not secure enough.

Its better for the cable holder to be designed to be "very slightly" loose, because, even though this might cause a little bit of noise, if the cable is too thick for some reason, then it will flex/push the inner shell upwards, which affects the button plunger hooks, which are responsible for holding the buttons in their vertical positions. Overall its best to just be conservative with anything that could alter the way things are supposed to work... the inner shell should only rest on the two areas where its screwed and nowhere else, because anything else introduces new tolerances which are hard to predict (for example, the cable could be on the large end of its tolerance, and the inner shell could be on the small end, which would cause a problem).

The whole mouse is designed in this way of strategically locating strengthening (for good strength:weight ratio), and isolation of parts away from others so that their tolerances don't interfere.

When a factory designs an OEM mouse, they put a lot of emphasis on it snapping together quickly on the production line, so things that would improve the quality dramatically, are sacrificed for the speed of manufacture. After all, they want to sell the mouse cheap (considering a lot come with the 3050 sensor), so taking twice as long on the production line (lots of screws etc) isn't an option. However, when a mouse is designed to use the top of the line components from the start, and to be high quality, then it never needs to be made to budget standards, so its ok for it to take longer to put together. So its reasonable to expect this mouse to be in a completely different league compared to an OEM mouse.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

How is the scroll wheel going to be like?


----------



## Avalar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *0mega1Spawn*
> 
> How is the scroll wheel going to be like?


I'm hoping unlike the G403's. It gets so loose over time, the steps are hardly discernible, and it doesn't even take that long. Second worst I've used, when this happens (first being Zowie's). My favorite wheel so far is the G900's, and that's only because the steps are more defined. Everything else about the wheel imo isn't as good as other wheels, but I still prefer it over them.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Why don't you like Zowie's scroll wheel?

IMO a G900/Zowie feel might be pretty nice.


----------



## bst

I was going to use the same one as the Venator black (F-Switch). They also make a more tactile version of it, which I'll be testing in the next prototype. In the Venator the steps were so defined that it was noisy, it kind of bounced around a bit on the switch, but it might be ok in the Astrum because the switch is the other way around.

Alps is more difficult to use because I have to make a new scroll wheel so it fits more snugly (or it'll rattle), and the supply of the Alps wheels is slow (takes a month to get them).

I'm not going to use Kailh which afaik is what the G403 uses... I'm not 100% sure it is kailh, I just know its not F-Switch or Alps.


----------



## Aliandro1d

I've taken apart my g303 and played around with the "spring tensioned buttons" the springs do almost nothing they mostly keep the button in place over the switch rather than being able to travel upwards or be pulled upwards, what makes the g303 feel so good is that it's simply a light plastic flap over an omron the omron does all the work, the problem with lot's of mice is either they have so pre tensioning system, like the cooler mastermouse s the shell is fixed slightly pressing the switch so in turn the clicks are super light and snappy but lack rebound and make spam clicking slower or we have the opposite the shell is causing the buttons to hover over the omron/switch and the shell itself is tough/hard and doesn't bend well this mouse has a much harder click and generally better rebound but many people want the rebound and light/medium click.
I think the best way to achieve that would be to have a stiffer switch with fast rebound and a button that just sits on the switch seperate from the shell etc. no pretension of any kind/ forcefully sitting on the switch allowing the user the most raw experience of the switch possible


----------



## Leopardi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aliandro1d*
> 
> I've taken apart my g303 and played around with the "spring tensioned buttons" the springs do almost nothing they mostly keep the button in place over the switch rather than being able to travel upwards or be pulled upwards, what makes the g303 feel so good is that it's simply a light plastic flap over an omron the omron does all the work, the problem with lot's of mice is either they have so pre tensioning system, like the cooler mastermouse s the shell is fixed slightly pressing the switch so in turn the clicks are super light and snappy but lack rebound and make spam clicking slower or we have the opposite the shell is causing the buttons to hover over the omron/switch and the shell itself is tough/hard and doesn't bend well this mouse has a much harder click and generally better rebound but many people want the rebound and light/medium click.
> I think the best way to achieve that would be to have a stiffer switch with fast rebound and a button that just sits on the switch seperate from the shell etc. no pretension of any kind/ forcefully sitting on the switch allowing the user the most raw experience of the switch possible


I wonder what the difference between g303 and g pro is. The G Pro hugely varies in the feel of the switches between samples, and even within a sample the LMB and RMB can feel/sound completely different. Plus they're ultra light compared to the G303, while the G303 was just perfect even on that area.


----------



## shaduh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *0mega1Spawn*
> 
> Why don't you like Zowie's scroll wheel?
> 
> IMO a G900/Zowie feel might be pretty nice.


At least on every EC model i had the, scrollwheel would die in a couple months (squeaking, tight scrolling, the wheel itself got sticky and gross). So as a bind mwheeldown +jump person i was really disappointed. Can't tell for sure but the initial scroll feel on other models was the same so they might be as bad. As the actual feel i kinda like it. Gave me a Microsoft-esque vibe...


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aliandro1d*
> 
> like the cooler mastermouse s the shell is fixed slightly pressing the switch so in turn the clicks are super light and snappy but lack rebound and make spam clicking slower


Older SS mice are like that but with more force required to actuate and more rebound force. Spamming is much easier on them than on Logitech's mice for me.


----------



## gipetto

@bst do you plan to release the shell designs so that we can 3d print our own modified shells?


----------



## RevanCorana

Everyones about LMB // RMB but what about middle click? in the g502 f.i. the middle click activates straight onto the switchs. In regular wheels there is a torque, the wheel plastic has to bend, muddying the feel a little, in order to actuate a switch that's offset from the finger pressure point, not optimal.


----------



## bst

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gipetto*
> 
> @bst do you plan to release the shell designs so that we can 3d print our own modified shells?


Not the whole shells, but templates, yes


----------



## vanir1337

The F-Switch encoder in the Venator is the best I've ever used, next to the Alps in the Roccat Kone Pure series, hands down. I'd be more than happy with it tbh.


----------



## gipetto

@bst you're going to have a lot of profit on this mouse as there'll be very few rma's due to button failure. you could have even more if you hardware debounced the side buttons, and eliminated all the debouncing code for lower latency. have you an estimates on pricing yet?


----------



## Argowashi

Ayy sign me up for a beta test. I've got a golden sample G403 that I've modded to be perfect and I'd love to compare it to the Astrum and really get a nice, detailed comparison. Especially when it comes to M1 & M2 button latency. It's crucial for it to be as low as possible for me in osu so nothing else on the market except the G403 is good enough for me.

Also will the screws be under the mousefeet or can I open up the Astrum without ruining them?


----------



## Aliandro1d

Leopardi said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *Aliandro1d*
> 
> I've taken apart my g303 and played around with the "spring tensioned buttons" the springs do almost nothing they mostly keep the button in place over the switch rather than being able to travel upwards or be pulled upwards, what makes the g303 feel so good is that it's simply a light plastic flap over an omron the omron does all the work, the problem with lot's of mice is either they have so pre tensioning system, like the cooler mastermouse s the shell is fixed slightly pressing the switch so in turn the clicks are super light and snappy but lack rebound and make spam clicking slower or we have the opposite the shell is causing the buttons to hover over the omron/switch and the shell itself is tough/hard and doesn't bend well this mouse has a much harder click and generally better rebound but many people want the rebound and light/medium click.
> I think the best way to achieve that would be to have a stiffer switch with fast rebound and a button that just sits on the switch seperate from the shell etc. no pretension of any kind/ forcefully sitting on the switch allowing the user the most raw experience of the switch possible
> 
> I wonder what the difference between g303 and g pro is. The G Pro hugely varies in the feel of the switches between samples, and even within a sample the LMB and RMB can feel/sound completely different. Plus they're ultra light compared to the G303, while the G303 was just perfect even on that area.


The problem with the g102 and gpro is both spring and shell as far as i can see the shell unlike the G303/302 shell has the buttons fixed horizontal over the omorns via. having thicker plastic connecting the buttons/plastic flaps into the back part of the shell itself, then it uses the same spring design also. Really it's just a QC problem here i had to rma my 1st g102 it was so bad. Logitech themselves claim the Gpro has "Advanced Button Tensioning. Superior click response. Advanced button tensioning in Logitech G Pro gaming mouse enhances the consistency of the left/right mouse buttons and helps reduce the force needed required to click." As i claimed before they are using springs/shell to pre tension the buttons onto the omron making the force required to activate less, ironically the best mouse clicks are on the g303 where their springs we're too loose and weak to make a large impact hence they should really ditch this pre tension bull.


----------



## popups

If you are going to go with an adjustable sensor position, why limit the range so much? It's kind of gimmicky if you can barely move it.


----------



## Avalar

popups said:


> If you are going to go with an adjustable sensor position, why limit the range so much? It's kind of gimmicky if you can barely move it.


Wasn't there a range of like 20mm? That sounds huge to me. You'd have to redesign the mouse to get any more I bet.


----------



## bst

Its 16mm, so you can have the sensor from 62mm to 78mm from the rear. It doesn't sound like much but I think the difference between 62-78 will be pretty big. The problem is covering all the holes, if you make the range of movement too big, it starts to turn into something pretty large and it interferes with things. There are other ways of doing it where it could move further, but then it wouldn't be as secure.


----------



## abso

Rather have less gimmicks and a durable mouse than the other way. All those gimmicks have the potential to introduce issues over time.


----------



## Leopardi

abso said:


> Rather have less gimmicks and a durable mouse than the other way. All those gimmicks have the potential to introduce issues over time.


This. Based on my G9 experiences, the swappable shells alone are a really potential issue.


----------



## bst

This is why I'll be sending a final prototype out to someone independent, so you don't just have to take my word for it that the mouse is fine with these features 

The thing is I want the mouse to appeal to a lot of people, I know there will be some that would prefer it to be more simple, but I'm betting that the product as a whole appeals to more people than it doesn't.

The G9 used a very different way of attaching its shells, there was no clamping action stopping things from moving, it was from back when people weren't as picky about those things as they are now. But this mouse is designed with that strongly in mind.

I may yet not bother with the adjustable sensor, it needs testing - if I can see issues with it, it'll either be improved (as long as its possible) or scrapped. If it works perfectly fine and I can't see any longevity issues with it then it'll probably stay, I mean why not if its not causing any problems.


----------



## Argowashi

Count me as one of the people that don't want or need an adjustable sensor as long as it's already in a good spot. I believe there's far too many potential issues with it. What if when you adjust it the sensor goes out of position and you have to open up the entire mouse to fix it? What if the sensor gets worn out from all the moving around? What if there's sensor wobble because of the construction? So many things that can potentially go wrong for only pleasing a few people.

I mean, if it works without issues then I'm gonna sing praises for it for sure. But if it doesn't I'm gonna be very vocal about it being an absolute failure. That said, it is a very ambitious idea and that in itself deserves respect. Otherwise I'm still really liking the ideas with the Astrum and how you're managing to keep the weight so low despite that. I just hope there won't be any quality issues like with the other Ninox mouse where the entire shell makes creaking noises when you press on it.

And also, pls give low debounce plsss


----------



## bst

Argowashi said:


> Count me as one of the people that don't want or need an adjustable sensor as long as it's already in a good spot. I believe there's far too many potential issues with it.


The thing is, what is a good spot for you may not be for someone else.



Argowashi said:


> What if when you adjust it the sensor goes out of position and you have to open up the entire mouse to fix it?


I don't think that will be possible, the PCB above it would have to break. There just isn't any room for it to move from where its supposed to go. If you unscrew it, it can only move backwards and forwards in its predetermined range of motion. There will be spare screws in the box if you lose them somehow.



Argowashi said:


> What if the sensor gets worn out from all the moving around?


I don't see why that would happen (the sensor doesn't have many wires going to it), but I don't really know why someone would continually move it, its better to move it a bit at the beginning to find where it suits you, then leave it. But even if it was moved a lot, its only 1.6cm, so its not going to put any strain on anything.



Argowashi said:


> What if there's sensor wobble because of the construction?


I doubt it'll be an issue, it'll be screwed down on the plate, and then it has guide rails so it can't move side to side, or change angle, then it is screwed down from underneath with bolts. It will be very secure.



Argowashi said:


> So many things that can potentially go wrong for only pleasing a few people.


I think its a pretty solid design and doesn't have much chance of going wrong. The main concern is that I might have to scrap it to save weight. There is also the fact that the side button PCB will probably have to have the MCU on it, making it non-removable. The last thing is that when the adjustable sensor is tightened down, it might be unavoidable that it tightens at a slight angle, even with the guide rails, because of the tolerance gaps. But I just have to find out if all those things are an issue or not.



Argowashi said:


> I mean, if it works without issues then I'm gonna sing praises for it for sure. But if it doesn't I'm gonna be very vocal about it being an absolute failure. That said, it is a very ambitious idea and that in itself deserves respect. Otherwise I'm still really liking the ideas with the Astrum and how you're managing to keep the weight so low despite that. I just hope there won't be any quality issues like with the other Ninox mouse where the entire shell makes creaking noises when you press on it.


I didn't design the Venator, so I had no say in the way the shell fit together, thats why I want to move away from OEM mice, they're made with a very different philosophy.



Argowashi said:


> And also, pls give low debounce plsss


Of course


----------



## Argowashi

Thanks bst. Your words are making me a bit more confident and less worried about the Astrum. Also, on Facebook you mentioned an augmented reality app to view the mouse on the desk/mousepad in my home. Is it possible to somehow make this work with a VR headset like the HTC Vive?


----------



## bst

Argowashi said:


> Thanks bst. Your words are making me a bit more confident and less worried about the Astrum. Also, on Facebook you mentioned an augmented reality app to view the mouse on the desk/mousepad in my home. Is it possible to somehow make this work with a VR headset like the HTC Vive?


I'm not sure, heres the website for the app:
http://www.augment.com/

I havent got a Vive but if you can somehow load up google or istore apps with it, then it should work.


----------



## Argowashi

Seems to be more of a mobile device kind of thing but that's alright. Anyway I can check out the mouse, even with just my phone, is cool as hell.


----------



## abso

How much weight will this adjustable sensor feature add to the mouse? Any estimate about what weight the mice will have? 80-85g would be perfect.


----------



## hotrodkungfury

Will the mouse have swappable buttons? Grooved buttons feels absolutely phenomenal on mice and I think including them on Astrum would be a great choice.


----------



## gipetto

I'd appreciate if the scroll encoder was on the right of the mouse as being righthanded I like to pull the scroll wheel left to actuate mouse3. the zowie ec2 is the opposite which is awkward for a righthanded mouse.


----------



## bst

abso said:


> How much weight will this adjustable sensor feature add to the mouse? Any estimate about what weight the mice will have? 80-85g would be perfect.


I'm not sure how much weight it adds at the moment, I don't think it will be that much. Solidworks says the weight of the sensor holder is 2 grams (ABS plastic), but almost the same amount of mass was removed in the base to let it move. The extra weight will come down to the PCB sizes and what kind of wires are used (ribbon being the lightest, but possibly more fragile). The bolts and screws weighs very little, about 0.5g at the very most.

The target weight of the mouse is around 80g. Will be less than 90 for sure, I'll make it as light as I can, without sacrificing strength.



hotrodkungfury said:


> Will the mouse have swappable buttons? Grooved buttons feels absolutely phenomenal on mice and I think including them on Astrum would be a great choice.


I might look into it, maybe as a stretch goal on the kickstarter. At the least, I could make a template so people could 3D print new buttons.



gipetto said:


> I'd appreciate if the scroll encoder was on the right of the mouse as being righthanded I like to pull the scroll wheel left to actuate mouse3. the zowie ec2 is the opposite which is awkward for a righthanded mouse.


Unfortunately I think you're in the minority, since you have to move your finger right to get to the scroll wheel, it makes sense for it to activate from pressing in that direction. I think most people prefer it like that, so thats how it'll be.


----------



## MattKelly

Forewarning: long post rambling about the nuances in mice that help me aim better.

I've used the Aurora as my main mouse for quite some time now (it's close to the perfect shape for me). My one gripe with it is that the sides are not totally straight/flat. This gets confusing, because people use these words to describe various different things (top down view being straight vs. egg shaped - i.e. | | vs. ( ) - or the sides being tilted \_/ vs. |_| etc.) so while the sides of the aurora are "flat" in that they don't have curves/twists/bends to them, they are still tilted inwards as the shell moves from top to bottom - like this \_/. I understand some people like this because they feel it helps them pick up the mouse (personally, I get enough lifting assistance from the back of my palm), so from my experience having perfectly flat sides |_| allows you to have greater contact with the fingertip, in turn allowing you to roll your fingertips a bit more around the sides of the mouse for small fingertip adjustments in aim. When the mouse slants like this \_/ it makes it so that my fingers now touch on the corner (nearer to the nail) rather than the whole fingertip. This small difference is substantial to me when making small aiming adjustments with the first digit of my finger. I notice that very few small mice seem to have perfectly straight sides, and those that do often have other quirks that I find off-putting (the DM3 Mini / Kinzu shape is perfectly flat but so short at the front right side that I can't even fit a full finger there... the Rival 110 is perfectly flat and tall enough for the ring finger to fit on the side, but the hump is much more restrictive due to it's width, when compared to the Aurora's pointed butt... etc. etc.)

So, I guess my question is, can any of the Astrum configurations have perfectly "straight" sides |_|, or will it be more like the Aurora in that they are "flat" but still "tilted in" \_/ a bit?


----------



## bst

The sides are flat, like this |_|. At no point do they go like this \_/.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> The sides are flat, like this |_|. At no point do they go like this \_/.


I love you. Now my fingers are crossed that the small version of the Astrum comes to fruition.


----------



## Klopfer

btw what colour will it have ?
Im not a fan of white  , but that's not a Big Deal for me ... 
just wanna know it ...


----------



## aCz-

bst - how does it looks? kickstarter gonna start this month or there is work to do?


----------



## bst

Sorry I've been quiet for a bit, just been very busy!



Klopfer said:


> btw what colour will it have ?
> Im not a fan of white  , but that's not a Big Deal for me ...
> just wanna know it ...


The standard colours are matte white and matte black. They might also have a slight sparkle to them.

On the kickstarter there will be 5 special colours/coatings, what they are is to be confirmed.
I was going to let people vote, but its just kind of messy.
Some of the front runners are:
- Dark chameleon crystal glossy - looks like a starry night sky with a faint blue and green aurora.
- Glossy pearl cobalt blue - medium blue which highlights lighter blue when the light hits it, with a slight sparkle.
- Medium grey rubber coating - Kind of a Star Trek TNG phaser look.
- Silver chrome glossy - T1000 esque
- Candy red matte - (google it  )



aCz- said:


> bst - how does it looks? kickstarter gonna start this month or there is work to do?


It'll be later, unfortunately. This is mostly due to the Chinese New year, running from now until the 23rd. I thought I could get the mold quote in beforehand, but no 

Things are going very well though, probably early next week I'll have a new prototype to show, which should be the final (at least, the final one before the kickstarter). I'm very happy with the design, I just have to see how the prototype goes. I'm confident its going to be fine though, probably the only things that will be done afterwards are very small things (trimming bits to save weight, etc). I've been waiting a long time for this prototype, we've been through a lot of different ideas to make sure we didn't miss anything, and made it the best we could. So even though its taken longer, its a lot better for it.

I will post pictures as soon as I can (on facebook), and go through all the things we've done. It'll probably be during next week. I'm making the prototype in acrylic this time, since it has much higher accuracy than the ABS printer. ABS weighs less but I need to see as close of a representation to the injection molded version as possible. So, it will look nicer than last time


----------



## Avalar

Seriously can't wait.


----------



## vanir1337

Avalar said:


> Seriously can't wait.


Same!


----------



## doors1991

I think I'll like the Beta and alpha IX shapes.


----------



## Shsi4491

Thanks for the update! Looking forward to it more and more!


----------



## lurkerguy

All these delays are a bummer but looking forward to Kickstarter too.

Looking at bst's posts, the only concern I have for the mouse is the weight. Really hoping for the mouse to be sub 80g with Aurora shell (with side buttons included) but I can live with it if it's ~75g without middle- and side buttons.


----------



## Leopardi

Avalar said:


> Seriously can't wait.


Yep. It should be closer to G100s than G Pro even if it's only 58mm, considering G Pro is actually only 50mm because of slants.


----------



## k0fz

Maybe you should make a bunch of holes all over the mouse like Finalmouse did to their new mouse to reduce weight?


----------



## hammelgammler

k0fz said:


> Maybe you should make a bunch of holes all over the mouse like Finalmouse did to their new mouse to reduce weight?


Yes, please. The lighter the better! I would even pay a premium for that.


----------



## Avalar

Sounds like a good idea for _another_ mouse.

No more delays pls. ;-;


----------



## lurkerguy

Sounds like a bad idea for any mouse rather.

I don't understand why people think it's suddenly revolutionary to have a mouse shell full of holes when previously people who went to the extends to lighten the mouse by drilling holes to the shell were laughed at. The shilling for Finalmouse must be real when such a dumb idea is publicly praised.


----------



## Avalar

lurkerguy said:


> Sounds like a bad idea for any mouse rather.
> 
> I don't understand why people think it's suddenly revolutionary to have a mouse shell full of holes when previously people who went to the extends to lighten the mouse by drilling holes to the shell were laughed at. The shilling for Finalmouse must be real when such a dumb idea is publicly praised.


Shoot, I didn't see anyone laughing. If I had the tools, I might've drilled some holes in my G502 a while back. There's other shapes I prefer now though, so I wouldn't bother with it now. I think it's a great idea. Revolutionary, I guess not, when you could just drill holes in a mouse if you wanted. But what's so bad about it? Assuming you get a flawless unit, it's everything every FPS player looking for a large, very lightweight mouse has been wanting. Nothing else can compare in the same size category.


----------



## iBerggman

Keep in mind that the Astrum is modular. I suppose the average user wouldn't want holes in the shell so imo it would make more sense to release something like this as an optional weight reducing add-on.


----------



## Nivity

I don't want holes in my mouse.


----------



## bst

I could make the Astrum featherweight without having to make holes in it.

The question I keep asking myself, is, whether to do both variants, or just one of them. In a way it seems a bit much to do both, even if they're released at separate times.

Basically I could get the mouse down to about 60-65g if I make it like this:
- No adjustable sensor position
- 3 shapes: Alpha IX, Beta IX, Gamma IX

What I'd do is fuse the sides and top, then the mouse would have no base, and the PCB would just screw in as a module (and there would be feet on the rear). The module would provide bracing for the shell.

Its a tough thing to decide because the Astrum already feels very light. Its not just the actual weight of it, but the shape and balance makes it feel light as well. 

What I could do is take a little more time and make a prototype of the fused mouse and see what its like. Its not a difficult thing to try, since the shapes are already done, it just needs some things removing and a couple of tweaks.

Another option is to offer both in the Kickstarter - the normal Astrum, and something like the "Astrum Fusion" which would just be one shape, eg the Beta IX shape. Then, if it all goes well, its not really a big deal to make the Alpha and Gamma shells available later. So the Astrum Fusion could be a bit more niche, you buy the sensor module and whatever shell you want.


----------



## James N

bst said:


> I could make the Astrum featherweight without having to make holes in it.
> 
> The question I keep asking myself, is, whether to do both variants, or just one of them. In a way it seems a bit much to do both, even if they're released at separate times.
> 
> Basically I could get the mouse down to about 60-65g if I make it like this:
> - No adjustable sensor position
> - 3 shapes: Alpha IX, Beta IX, Gamma IX
> 
> What I'd do is fuse the sides and top, then the mouse would have no base, and the PCB would just screw in as a module (and there would be feet on the rear). The module would provide bracing for the shell.
> 
> Its a tough thing to decide because the Astrum already feels very light. Its not just the actual weight of it, but the shape and balance makes it feel light as well.
> 
> What I could do is take a little more time and make a prototype of the fused mouse and see what its like. Its not a difficult thing to try, since the shapes are already done, it just needs some things removing and a couple of tweaks.
> 
> Another option is to offer both in the Kickstarter - the normal Astrum, and something like the "Astrum Fusion" which would just be one shape, eg the Beta IX shape. Then, if it all goes well, its not really a big deal to make the Alpha and Gamma shells available later. So the Astrum Fusion could be a bit more niche, you buy the sensor module and whatever shell you want.


I can't speak for everyone. But i have high hopes of this mouse curing my addiction of wasting money on every mouse that comes out. The black Venator impressed me a lot and the quality is amazing, the only thing i would change is the sensor position on it(it is too low for my liking). If the Astrum has similar or better quality, this will be potentially the mouse that succeeds where many others have failed so far.

If you offer 2 variants, i can see most people going for the lighter variant anyways. Depending how much the shells of the Fusion would cost i personally would prefer that version.

A lot of people that were disappointed with Finalmouse, will buy the Ultralight just because of that feature alone (despite all other products in the past having lots of issues along with them just releasing new mice instead of fixing issues on their current models.). So having a mouse as light as possible is definitely a desirable feature.

Having the option to adjust the sensor position at the cost of increasing the weight or having a mouse that weighs below 70grams, i would recon that the majority would pick the lighter variant and adjust themselves to the sensor position. Just don't make the sensor position too low, as this seems to be more of a deal breaker for a lot of people. 

You could always make a poll, post it on your social media and in this forum and see what the majority wants.


----------



## cdcd

lurkerguy said:


> Sounds like a bad idea for any mouse rather.
> 
> I don't understand why people think it's suddenly revolutionary to have a mouse shell full of holes when previously people who went to the extends to lighten the mouse by drilling holes to the shell were laughed at. The shilling for Finalmouse must be real when such a dumb idea is publicly praised.


The only reason why you'd laugh at people drilling holes is because them doing it hurts the shell integrity. This is not the case when it's been designed with holes in it and done properly by the manufacturer itself.


----------



## iBerggman

Personally I'd prefer the more modular version as I think my optimal shape would be a combination of two different sides or maybe even a custom 3d printed rear hump back shell with matching sides. 

Speaking of 3d printing, I know you've mentioned the possibility before so I was wondering how intricate the design for the shell parts is? Would I be able to print usable parts with a consumer 3d printer?


----------



## hammelgammler

bst said:


> I could make the Astrum featherweight without having to make holes in it.
> 
> The question I keep asking myself, is, whether to do both variants, or just one of them. In a way it seems a bit much to do both, even if they're released at separate times.
> 
> Basically I could get the mouse down to about 60-65g if I make it like this:
> - No adjustable sensor position
> - 3 shapes: Alpha IX, Beta IX, Gamma IX
> 
> What I'd do is fuse the sides and top, then the mouse would have no base, and the PCB would just screw in as a module (and there would be feet on the rear). The module would provide bracing for the shell.
> 
> Its a tough thing to decide because the Astrum already feels very light. Its not just the actual weight of it, but the shape and balance makes it feel light as well.
> 
> What I could do is take a little more time and make a prototype of the fused mouse and see what its like. Its not a difficult thing to try, since the shapes are already done, it just needs some things removing and a couple of tweaks.
> 
> Another option is to offer both in the Kickstarter - the normal Astrum, and something like the "Astrum Fusion" which would just be one shape, eg the Beta IX shape. Then, if it all goes well, its not really a big deal to make the Alpha and Gamma shells available later. So the Astrum Fusion could be a bit more niche, you buy the sensor module and whatever shell you want.


Yes, do it, please! The modular mice is great for normal users who doesn't bother some more weight, but I appreciate every gram lighter that it can get. Of course shape is still number one, and I wouldn't use a mouse which is light but the shape doesn't fit. But if it does, that's a great feature for me.

I have the feeling that most of the users who don't appreciate a low weight, doesn't had the chance to try their same shape but with less weight. It's like 60Hz vs 120Hz, I know a person who doesn't want/need it, but when they somehow have the chance to use it, there's no coming back.


----------



## hammelgammler

cdcd said:


> The only reason why you'd laugh at people drilling holes is because them doing it hurts the shell integrity. This is not the case when it's been designed with holes in it and done properly by the manufacturer itself.


I don't understand the argument. Yes it will hurt it, but it doesn't break in no way much faster then without holes. There are parts of a mouse which break faster then others on impact anyways. I didn't even drill holes in my mice, but cut huge holes into the bottom, with small plastic bridges to hold everything together, and it's still fine. Even dropped it once.

It only hurts it objectively, but in practice I don't see any problem with it, of course you shouldn't throw your mouse across the room, but I think that you shouldn't do that anyways.


----------



## bst

iBerggman said:


> Personally I'd prefer the more modular version as I think my optimal shape would be a combination of two different sides or maybe even a custom 3d printed rear hump back shell with matching sides.
> 
> Speaking of 3d printing, I know you've mentioned the possibility before so I was wondering how intricate the design for the shell parts is? Would I be able to print usable parts with a consumer 3d printer?


Yes no problem printing parts, it would be best to use a company who has a decent printer though. Best not to use SLS printing, apparently it loses its rigidity. The first prototype was printed in ABS plastic, and the second is being printed in Acrylic because the machine has a lot higher accuracy (close to injection molded). ABS would be fine though, there isn't really any weak or intricate areas you have to be careful of, its just that with the lower resolution printers you will have to do more finishing on the parts (filing / sanding etc).


----------



## gipetto

After reading the classic intellimouse thread there was some confusion over mechanical vs optical 3 wire encoders. If it is possible to have a 3 wire optical encoder using the same pinout as a mechanical scroll encoder, would it be possible to have a choice of each to interchange via a plug in header? This would greatly extend the life of the mouse for office users.


----------



## lurkerguy

I think offering only a single shell without the main base is a great idea. While I like the idea of different shells implemented into single mouse, there are people like the minority of us who still use their old Microsoft mice despite having tried bunch of different ones just because of the shape alone and thus already know what they are looking for.

If you decide to go with the idea I hope you will offer Fusion models without side buttons as well. Might be too much work for the factory though but I would surely back Fusion Gamma XX myself and wouldn't mind an extra delay for having it implemented.


----------



## shaduh

Or the beta ix fusion... The "endgame wmo" for me


----------



## Avalar

I'd probably buy any version of the Astrum you come up with, so I'm all for a lighter version, too.

It's just, idk how much longer I can wait. ^-^


----------



## M1st

bst said:


> Best not to use SLS printing, apparently it loses its rigidity.


Interesting. Any read on that or that's from your experience?


----------



## xmr1

Personally I'd rather buy the "Fusion" version if we're talking 65g vs 80g. I don't care for the adjustable sensor position and if I wanted the Alpha shape too I'd be fine with buying another shell or even another entire mouse.

I'm looking for the best mouse possible rather than a mouse that's jack of all trades, master of none. Others may disagree of course.


----------



## MattKelly

xmr1 said:


> I'm looking for the best mouse possible rather than a mouse that's jack of all trades, master of none.


Bingo - hit the nail on the head - let's see that lightweight perfection.


----------



## hammelgammler

xmr1 said:


> Personally I'd rather buy the "Fusion" version if we're talking 65g vs 80g. I don't care for the adjustable sensor position and if I wanted the Alpha shape too I'd be fine with buying another shell or even another entire mouse.
> 
> I'm looking for the best mouse possible rather than a mouse that's jack of all trades, master of none. Others may disagree of course.


Same. Can only agree with the last statement, all or nothing. I would gladly buy another mouse as well.


----------



## bst

I have been working with the design company on the weight of the Astrum today, I was going to wait until after the prototype to do it, but I wanted to see what the best weight we could get from it would be asap.

So far we've managed to shave the weight down to approx 74g for the Beta XX shape.
If I remove the adjustable sensor, it goes down to about 71g.
I think there are also a couple of other things I can do to get it down another 3g. 

Of course, the Alpha shape would be even lighter, but we're just working on the beta one at the moment.

So potentially it'll weigh 68g. I didn't actually expect it to be able to be that light, so, I think its ok, and I don't need to do the Fusion versions. Later on today we should have made more progress, and I will update


----------



## James N

bst said:


> I have been working with the design company on the weight of the Astrum today, I was going to wait until after the prototype to do it, but I wanted to see what the best weight we could get from it would be asap.
> 
> So far we've managed to shave the weight down to approx 74g for the Beta XX shape.
> If I remove the adjustable sensor, it goes down to about 71g.
> I think there are also a couple of other things I can do to get it down another 3g.
> 
> Of course, the Alpha shape would be even lighter, but we're just working on the beta one at the moment.
> 
> So potentially it'll weigh 68g. I didn't actually expect it to be able to be that light, so, I think its ok, and I don't need to do the Fusion versions. Later on today we should have made more progress, and I will update


That sounds good, thank you for the update.

When can we expect the Kickstarter to go online?


----------



## bst

James N said:


> That sounds good, thank you for the update.
> 
> When can we expect the Kickstarter to go online?


I can't really start it until I have the quote for the mold from the factory, and I can't get the quote until the design is final, or at least, in a position where there won't be any big changes. I think we're at that point now, but I just need to test it and make sure its all ok. The factory isn't back from their new year holiday until the 19th, but by then I should be ready to send them the files for the quote.

Then I'll work as fast as I can to put up the kickstarter. I still need to make images and a video for it though, which I could only do with the final prototype and 3d files.

It'll be easier for me to give a date after I get the quote, so its probably best if I wait until then before I estimate the start date. Sorry to give an estimate for an estimate  It will get easier though, as things start to fall into place.


----------



## lurkerguy

That's definitely good weight if you can get it sub 70g for a normal size mouse that has the skeleton inside to stick the parts into. How much does the side button PCB weight and was it included in the weighing?


----------



## Avalar

All this makes me wonder why big companies that _say_ their gear is directed towards gamers can't do even a single thing that bst could potentially do with the Astrum.


----------



## senileoldman

Jesus Christ, BST. I wasted $160 on 2 Ultralight; now I'll have to waste other $160 on you, smh.

Someone help me, please.


----------



## bst

lurkerguy said:


> That's definitely good weight if you can get it sub 70g for a normal size mouse that has the skeleton inside to stick the parts into. How much does the side button PCB weight and was it included in the weighing?


Its not an exact weight, as I can only estimate it at the moment, but *everything* was weighed (even all the screws and wires) and its about as accurate as I can get right now.

The weight of the side button PCB depends on if the sensor position is adjustable or not. If its adjustable, then the MCU has to go on there. Theres no difference in weight, since the MCU has to go somewhere, but it just means its not easy to remove the side buttons (I assume thats what you wanted to do).

The only way you could do it if the sensor is adjustable, is to use a teensy, and upload the FW to it. The teensy uses the exact same MCU, so it wouldn't be that hard... but it does mean soldering.


----------



## bst

senileoldman said:


> Jesus Christ, BST. I wasted $160 on 2 Ultralight; now I'll have to waste other $160 on you, smh.
> 
> Someone help me, please.


Please, no one help him, I need people like him


----------



## FieryLight

Hey, just checking, will the Alpha IX shape have perfectly parallel side panels? I can't quite tell from the renders. I love that there's no "butt" to the mouse but I'm just curious if the shape is closer to that of a Thunderbolt TM30 (parallel sides) or a CoolerMaster Recon (sides point inward towards the top). Thanks!


----------



## popups

bst said:


> Its not an exact weight, as I can only estimate it at the moment, but *everything* was weighed (even all the screws and wires) and its about as accurate as I can get right now.
> 
> The weight of the side button PCB depends on if the sensor position is adjustable or not. If its adjustable, then the MCU has to go on there. Theres no difference in weight, since the MCU has to go somewhere, but it just means its not easy to remove the side buttons (I assume thats what you wanted to do).
> 
> The only way you could do it if the sensor is adjustable, is to use a teensy, and upload the FW to it. The teensy uses the exact same MCU, so it wouldn't be that hard... but it does mean soldering.


I think there are people who want a WMO replacement that also want to remove the side buttons.

It would be a major pain to use that PCB for other shapes. I don't like mice that have the side buttons on the sensor board because putting it in other shapes is problematic.


----------



## ewiggle

@bst

I just want to take a moment to say how pleased I am with the way you carry the ninox brand in public internets. It just seems very professional, straight-forward, and honest. Also seems pretty transparent, and that's amazing in itself. Please keep it this way, or at least the honesty parts of it. 

My thoughts on the weight of the mice are that it's a nice-to-have but not mandatory - don't want to start a holy war about that though. However if the community wants feather weight, I'm sure you'll do what you can. But at the end of the day, I just appreciate the way you are all up inside of the community doing us a solid and doing it in a very respectable manner. I think you're one of the very few that operates without really needing to hire a PR firewall person to take care of relations. 

If I could hi-5 you I would, because I'm impressed. I know I couldn't do it, and I've seen other small companies that tried and just end up accidentally creating a salty atmosphere.


----------



## senileoldman

Yeah. I think all the moveable sensor and low weight people are just dumb and think they won't, probably, buy the mouse. 

There's also the issue that Ninox is a small company managed by only one person. BST is trying really hard to please you all, but it's impossible. You guys are putting a ton of pressure on him. I think he really wants to make a mouse that everyone can love, but, damn. It's never enough for you guys.

Who cares about 5g in A MOUSE, or who cares about a bit more forward sensor position. Jesus. 

The human brain is a wonderful thing, and you will be able to adapt quickly. I mean. My favorite mouse is the G400; it weights around 140g. I can play fine with it.

It's great that he's trying to innovate, and listening to the community, but you all are too toxic.


----------



## lurkerguy

Yeah no. Mouse is the arguably the only peripheral where weight does matter. If you are a high sens guy then there's no reason to care about how much your mouse weights but for the low sens players it's an undeniable fact that lower weight is advantageous especially if you play faster paced games like arena shooters.

Sensor position people however should look themselves in the mirror and ask them the question whether or not it really matters where in the mouse your sensor is located.


----------



## trism

lurkerguy said:


> Sensor position people however should look themselves in the mirror and ask them the question whether or not it really matters where in the mouse your sensor is located.


Much more than 10 grams of weight. Both are opinions posted by different people. If something is important for you, it might not be as important for others or they may keep some other factors more important.



senileoldman said:


> My favorite mouse is the G400; it weights around 140g.


That's probably with the cord though? I agree, weight-wise G400 is just fine. Doesn't feel heavy at all. Actually, you made me try the shape and now I want to use it again. Lol. It's funny too since it's quite huge, yet my claw grip works just fine with it.


----------



## Aliandro1d

Can you tell us what grip you use bst so we can understand your pov on the design better


----------



## bst

FieryLight said:


> Hey, just checking, will the Alpha IX shape have perfectly parallel side panels? I can't quite tell from the renders. I love that there's no "butt" to the mouse but I'm just curious if the shape is closer to that of a Thunderbolt TM30 (parallel sides) or a CoolerMaster Recon (sides point inward towards the top). Thanks!


It has parallel sides, they're like this seen from the front or rear |___|



popups said:


> I think there are people who want a WMO replacement that also want to remove the side buttons.
> 
> It would be a major pain to use that PCB for other shapes. I don't like mice that have the side buttons on the sensor board because putting it in other shapes is problematic.


Yeah, I know some people would want to remove the side button PCB. It'd be very difficult to make it so it could be removed if the sensor position is adjustable, the MCU has no room to go anywhere else except on the side button PCB. However, if you didn't mind losing the side buttons completely (ie, forever), then you could cut that part of the PCB off. Maybe I can think of something better though.




ewiggle said:


> @bst
> 
> I just want to take a moment to say how pleased I am with the way you carry the ninox brand in public internets. It just seems very professional, straight-forward, and honest. Also seems pretty transparent, and that's amazing in itself. Please keep it this way, or at least the honesty parts of it.
> 
> My thoughts on the weight of the mice are that it's a nice-to-have but not mandatory - don't want to start a holy war about that though. However if the community wants feather weight, I'm sure you'll do what you can. But at the end of the day, I just appreciate the way you are all up inside of the community doing us a solid and doing it in a very respectable manner. I think you're one of the very few that operates without really needing to hire a PR firewall person to take care of relations.
> 
> If I could hi-5 you I would, because I'm impressed. I know I couldn't do it, and I've seen other small companies that tried and just end up accidentally creating a salty atmosphere.


Thanks 

It was always meant to be a light mouse, I always was going to trim off what I could at the end and see how light I could get it, so this is an expected stage of its development.

I think being honest and transparent is the best way, it makes things easier, and I try to see things in a matter of fact way, rather than getting involved in the emotional side of things. So overall, I don't find it too difficult, also it helps that I enjoy it 



senileoldman said:


> Yeah. I think all the moveable sensor and low weight people are just dumb and think they won't, probably, buy the mouse.
> 
> There's also the issue that Ninox is a small company managed by only one person. BST is trying really hard to please you all, but it's impossible. You guys are putting a ton of pressure on him. I think he really wants to make a mouse that everyone can love, but, damn. It's never enough for you guys.
> 
> Who cares about 5g in A MOUSE, or who cares about a bit more forward sensor position. Jesus.
> 
> The human brain is a wonderful thing, and you will be able to adapt quickly. I mean. My favorite mouse is the G400; it weights around 140g. I can play fine with it.
> 
> It's great that he's trying to innovate, and listening to the community, but you all are too toxic.


I don't really get a toxic vibe from anyone here. They're only saying what they want, which is fine. There are things which I said I couldn't do, but if theres anything I think is possible, I'll give it a go. I fully expect people to push for low weight, and I can see where the sensor position people are coming from 

I don't mind it really because we can get all this out of the way now, the more the better. The worst thing is after the mold is finished and people want changes, and they would have been possible. So I don't want to put anyone off making suggestions at this stage, when its easy to try them.


----------



## bst

Aliandro1d said:


> Can you tell us what grip you use bst so we can understand your pov on the design better


I use fingertip in windows / RTS etc, and palm in FPS. I don't use claw much, but I'm familiar with it, so I can try clawing it to make sure its ok.


----------



## bst

At the moment the mouse is looking like it'll be 70g, and if it has the adjustable sensor it'll add 2 more grams. It might change a bit since its still being worked on (unlikely by much), but I'll post the final weight when its done.

I can't get it down to 68g, we tried, but its just not possible. But still, 70-72g for a modular mouse is pretty good imo 

(btw, thats for the Beta IX shape, so the Alpha IX shape could well be 68g or less - I have to find out later though).


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> At the moment the mouse is looking like it'll be 70g, and if it has the adjustable sensor it'll add 2 more grams. It might change a bit since its still being worked on (unlikely by much), but I'll post the final weight when its done.
> 
> I can't get it down to 68g, we tried, but its just not possible. But still, 70-72g for a modular mouse is pretty good imo
> 
> (btw, thats for the Beta IX shape, so the Alpha IX shape could well be 68g or less - I have to find out later though).


Yay


----------



## a_ak57

bst said:


> At the moment the mouse is looking like it'll be 70g, and if it has the adjustable sensor it'll add 2 more grams. It might change a bit since its still being worked on (unlikely by much), but I'll post the final weight when its done.
> 
> I can't get it down to 68g, we tried, but its just not possible. But still, 70-72g for a modular mouse is pretty good imo
> 
> (btw, thats for the Beta IX shape, so the Alpha IX shape could well be 68g or less - I have to find out later though).


The Beta is supposed to be WMO sized, right? If so I'm not sure how much need there would be for a fusion version since 72g for a WMO with side buttons and adjustable sensor is pretty darn light.


----------



## Nivity

I rather have quality over shedding few grams. 70-80 grams is more then light enough for me personally.


----------



## gipetto

*tfw intermittent scroll wheel.*

here's an ideal I had for a hybrid optical/mechanical scroll wheel. it has the light spokes as well as the hex shaft to drive the encoder. That way when the scroll encoder wears out after 6 months, just reflash the firmware and use the optical instead. the hex shaft may be a little longer than the deathadder to allow space for the ir led.
only raises the mouse cost by the led and quadrature detector, same number of i/o pins, and same clicky feel that gamers love without the unresponsive zowie wheel. this has the advantage of long term reliability for a minor design change.
number of light spokes would be equal to or a multiple of the mechanical encoder steps.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> here's an ideal I had for a hybrid optical/mechanical scroll wheel. it has the light spokes as well as the hex shaft to drive the encoder. That way when the scroll encoder wears out after 6 months, just reflash the firmware and use the optical instead. the hex shaft may be a little longer than the deathadder to allow space for the ir led.
> only raises the mouse cost by the led and quadrature detector, same number of i/o pins, and same clicky feel that gamers love without the unresponsive zowie wheel. this has the advantage of long term reliability for a minor design change.
> number of light spokes would be equal to or a multiple of the mechanical encoder steps.


The thing is with the scroll wheel is I was going to use an OEM one, it costs $4500 to make a new one  The other problem is I'm not sure if there will be enough room, its REALLY tight in that area.

The F-Switch encoder has a much higher lifespan than the usual TTC encoders, so maybe it won't die that fast?

I like the idea though, it might be possible to add it if I sell a lot, then having a unique scroll wheel won't be a problem, as long as theres room to do it.


----------



## gipetto

I didn't realise the expense would be of that magnitude. You must be handling a lot of money to even consider it at that cost. I'm not sure if it would be a success given unknown failure modes like that time a user here wore out an encoder so badly the hex shaft twisted off. I'm sure your mouse will be a commercial success as it is. I'm something of an idealist so i have unrealistic notions at times and thanks for responding.
If you did want to try it out you could remove the rubber band from the wheel, take a junior hacksaw and cut parallel slices out of the wheel before replacing the band.


----------



## Klopfer

I really Like the F-Switch Encoder ... but I dont like chinese 50M Omron ... I would definitivly prefer 20M Japanese Omron 

btw ... the Venator doesnt saves the LoD Settings , after PC reboot I had to configure the Lod again ...


----------



## bst

Klopfer said:


> I really Like the F-Switch Encoder ... but I dont like chinese 50M Omron ... I would definitivly prefer 20M Japanese Omron
> 
> btw ... the Venator doesnt saves the LoD Settings , after PC reboot I had to configure the Lod again ...


I can't get the 20M Japanese Omron, if you mean the D2F-F-3-7. I can get some, but officially they are discontinued. I might be able to do them only for the first batch. I bought some from a supplier on Ebay who said they could get high quantities... the switches seem fine. But it is a bit risky, who knows what would happen if I order 2000+... Japanese Omrons are great, but they suck at the same time, simply because you can't get them :/

I know about the LOD setting on the Venator, and also when it resets, the green profile is 1400 DPI instead of 1600. I've had about 5 firmwares from them on it, and every one of them is wrong. In the end they said, "please can we just give up"... its pathetic. Its because all the factories outsource to a really bad programming company, they're awful. The best thing to do, is just to wait, and try again later, hopefully you get someone competent next time. It is about time I tried again, but to be honest I did forget about it until you mentioned it :/ If I had control of the FW it would have been fixed in a matter of hours, so, thats why the Astrum isn't going anywhere near that outsourced company.


----------



## FieryLight

bst said:


> It has parallel sides, they're like this seen from the front or rear |___|


Sorry, I don't think I was very clear. What I meant was from a bird's eye view, are they perfectly parallel?


----------



## bst

FieryLight said:


> Sorry, I don't think I was very clear. What I meant was from a bird's eye view, are they perfectly parallel?


Ah I see what you mean now. Yes they are like the mouse on the left.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> I can't get the 20M Japanese Omron, if you mean the D2F-F-3-7. I can get some, but officially they are discontinued. I might be able to do them only for the first batch...


*inhales*

please please please please please please please please please please please pleeeeeease.

Even if it's only the first batch, or the Kickstarter mice. I'm gonna buy 5 of these anyway. ;3


----------



## Klopfer

btw *** why Japanese Omron 20M are discontinued ? they were the Best ! 
That's a shame Omron !


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> *inhales*
> 
> please please please please please please please please please please please pleeeeeease.
> 
> Even if it's only the first batch, or the Kickstarter mice. I'm gonna buy 5 of these anyway. ;3


I'll try. Maybe the factory can find some that I can use for the kickstarter.



Klopfer said:


> btw *** why Japanese Omron 20M are discontinued ? they were the Best !
> That's a shame Omron !


I don't know. I'd really like it if they made a whole range of top quality switches. They don't even mention the F-3-7's on their site, its not even in the discontinued list. I don't know why it has to be such a big mystery.

TTC make a 24K gold plated switch now... not sure what they're like though.
http://www.ttc9.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=482


----------



## Nx87

hoping adjustable sensor makes it to the final build, I enjoy a more frontal position


----------



## Klopfer

bst said:


> I'll try. Maybe the factory can find some that I can use for the kickstarter.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. I'd really like it if they made a whole range of top quality switches. They don't even mention the F-3-7's on their site, its not even in the discontinued list. I don't know why it has to be such a big mystery.
> 
> TTC make a 24K gold plated switch now... not sure what they're like though.
> http://www.ttc9.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=482


I dont like TTC Switches and MWheel Encoder  , also dont like their switches for keyboards ...

Edit: but thats just my opinion ... 
I dont like Mercedes , coz I like BMW


----------



## lurkerguy

These Kickstarter specialties are starting to sound more and more dope. Just hoping you have some jp Omrons left to implement on the smaller model as well if you decide to order them.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Had a thought. Users replacing the feet on their recent Ultralights are having problems with the LOD being too high and the mouse not tracking properly. Did you do anything to prevent that happening to the Astrum?


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Had a thought. Users replacing the feet on their recent Ultralights are having problems with the LOD being too high and the mouse not tracking properly. Did you do anything to prevent that happening to the Astrum?


Yes, you can set the LOD to the higher setting with or without software (the softwareless mode works the same as the Venator).


----------



## k0fz

I guess I'm going to have to make a 3D printed back for this mouse because the side buttons will be placed too far back like with all mice. There is literally no mouse made for 21x10cm hands that I'm aware of. 

Zowie FK1+ with claw grip: https://i.imgur.com/mypdwwL.jpg Basically the same with ZA11 even though I get much better palm support.

Asus ROG Gladius with palm grip (about the same size as Zowie EC1-B I think): https://i.imgur.com/FIIZ3ZC.jpg

Pretty awkward as you can see.


----------



## Avalar

k0fz said:


> I guess I'm going to have to make a 3D printed back for this mouse because the side buttons will be placed too far back like with all mice. There is literally no mouse made for 21x10cm hands that I'm aware of.
> 
> Zowie FK+ with claw grip: https://i.imgur.com/mypdwwL.jpg Basically the same with ZA11 even though I get much better palm support.
> 
> Asus ROG Gladius with palm grip (about the same size as Zowie EC1-B I think): https://i.imgur.com/FIIZ3ZC.jpg
> 
> Pretty awkward as you can see.


The Rival 600 has a third side button that's really far forward. Could work.


----------



## k0fz

Avalar said:


> The Rival 600 has a third side button that's really far forward. Could work.


That's interesting. 131cm too, wow. Although it looks like the right side will hurt my pinky and make me grip it badly (like with all mice) if I claw grip it because of the butt. I usually curl my pinky and ring finger. It would probably be better for me if it was ambidextrous. The butt on ZA11 is in the way on the right side too though, but not as much. If I try to palm grip it, my thumb probably won't align with the curve on the left side of the butt and create a gap which will hurt.


----------



## a_ak57

k0fz said:


> I guess I'm going to have to make a 3D printed back for this mouse because the side buttons will be placed too far back like with all mice. There is literally no mouse made for 21x10cm hands that I'm aware of.
> 
> Zowie FK1+ with claw grip: https://i.imgur.com/mypdwwL.jpg Basically the same with ZA11 even though I get much better palm support.
> 
> Asus ROG Gladius with palm grip (about the same size as Zowie EC1-B I think): https://i.imgur.com/FIIZ3ZC.jpg
> 
> Pretty awkward as you can see.



Going by the ROG picture I think your hand length problem is exacerbated somewhat by the mouse's angle of rotation in your hand. If you realigned your grip so that a line through the sensor's y-axis ran more toward the middle of your wrist (as opposed to the corner of your wrist like now) your thumb would inherently be further back. Quick pic of what I mean:

https://i.imgur.com/Q9fTQky.jpg


----------



## iBerggman

k0fz said:


> I guess I'm going to have to make a 3D printed back for this mouse because the side buttons will be placed too far back like with all mice. There is literally no mouse made for 21x10cm hands that I'm aware of.
> 
> Zowie FK1+ with claw grip: https://i.imgur.com/mypdwwL.jpg Basically the same with ZA11 even though I get much better palm support.
> 
> Asus ROG Gladius with palm grip (about the same size as Zowie EC1-B I think): https://i.imgur.com/FIIZ3ZC.jpg
> 
> Pretty awkward as you can see.



This. Even with 20x10cm hands I have a hard time finding a mouse I can actually palm grip. Most mice only allow me to have my hand in contact with the shell up to about my knuckles, any more than that and it starts to feel odd or even uncomfortable to the point of it being unusable. I've even tried making side grips for my G403 so it allows me to palm it fully but that leaves my fingers hanging over the edge of the mouse buttons, and while that isn't a total deal breaker I still find myself having to adjust my grip because of it.

That being said I'm confident the Astrum will work for me due to the customizable sides as well as the curved buttons, couple that with the possibility of getting a ZA/Venator style rear hump shell and I might finally have an end game mouse


----------



## detto87

I haven't read the whole thread, excuse me.
But all I wanted to know is some infos about feet and cable, as the Ultralight Pro got some well deserved critics about both those aspects.
What cable will the Astrum get, and what about the feet, are they rounded?


----------



## Nx87

detto87 said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, excuse me.
> But all I wanted to know is some infos about feet and cable, as the Ultralight Pro got some well deserved critics about both those aspects.
> What cable will the Astrum get, and what about the feet, are they rounded?


Feet will be made by Hotline games iirc, second best after Hyperglide imo. Hotlines weren't rounded last time I bought them but still great.


----------



## Avalar

Nx87 said:


> Feet will be made by Hotline games iirc...


Wow, you can do that?


----------



## bst

Yeah, you can get any gaming feet, but some are easier to get than others. Hotline is the easiest because the factory knows them, so its all very streamlined.

I haven't confirmed the cable yet. I'll be trying a more flexible version of the Venator cable soon, and I'll also see if they can do a paracord, but with the shield ofc. But that might be near enough as good as a paracord with no shield, since the woven shield I use is pretty flexible.


----------



## gipetto

Will you do a drop test from 3 feet? all my mice tend to get knocked off the desk due to cables being tugged. It would be interesting to see how damage occurs.


----------



## Klopfer

bst said:


> Yeah, you can get any gaming feet, but some are easier to get than others. Hotline is the easiest because the factory knows them, so its all very streamlined.
> 
> I haven't confirmed the cable yet. I'll be trying a more flexible version of the Venator cable soon, and I'll also see if they can do a paracord, but with the shield ofc. But that might be near enough as good as a paracord with no shield, since the woven shield I use is pretty flexible.


the cable of the DA Elite is really good for example ...


----------



## senileoldman

Jesus. I really love what BST is doing. 

Can't wait for the Astrum!


----------



## shaduh

doin it for tha culture!


----------



## DazzaInOz

gipetto said:


> Will you do a drop test from 3 feet? all my mice tend to get knocked off the desk due to cables being tugged. It would be interesting to see how damage occurs.


lol mine tend to get 'thrown' off the desk! Please test for 3 feet away and against a wall! Maybe bst can also test it against the iphone x and galaxy s


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Will the Astrum have the same cable pin arrangement as the Venator? Only just now realized that I oughta order a Paracord for it in advance.

Thank you!


----------



## t3ram

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Will the Astrum have the same cable pin arrangement as the Venator? Only just now realized that I oughta order a Paracord for it in advance.
> 
> Thank you!


If it is different you can easy un pin and repin the cable


----------



## thrillhaus

senileoldman said:


> Yeah. I think all the moveable sensor and low weight people are just dumb and think they won't, probably, buy the mouse.
> 
> There's also the issue that Ninox is a small company managed by only one person. BST is trying really hard to please you all, but it's impossible. You guys are putting a ton of pressure on him. I think he really wants to make a mouse that everyone can love, but, damn. It's never enough for you guys.
> 
> Who cares about 5g in A MOUSE, or who cares about a bit more forward sensor position. Jesus.
> 
> The human brain is a wonderful thing, and you will be able to adapt quickly. I mean. My favorite mouse is the G400; it weights around 140g. I can play fine with it.
> 
> It's great that he's trying to innovate, and listening to the community, but you all are too toxic.


I hope the irony of simultaneously calling people dumb and toxic isn't lost on you.

You're posting on a forum where people go as far as modding/building their own mice. The man is working hard to make a product that can hopefully satisfy the wide range of personal preference while offering top performance. A mouse manufacturer willing to interact with the community to design an ideal product is unheard of, so don't be coming in here trying to discourage his conscientiousness. You don't have anything to lose letting him work hard to take in everyone's feedback.

Also the G400 weight without the cable is only 105g, not 140g. You would notice if the mouse were truly that heavy. As well, your unqualified definition of "playing fine" is meaningless as for all we know that could mean you place blocks fine in Minecraft. The G400 is indeed a mighty fine mouse, however.


----------



## Aliandro1d

k0fz said:


> I guess I'm going to have to make a 3D printed back for this mouse because the side buttons will be placed too far back like with all mice. There is literally no mouse made for 21x10cm hands that I'm aware of.
> 
> Zowie FK1+ with claw grip: https://i.imgur.com/mypdwwL.jpg Basically the same with ZA11 even though I get much better palm support.
> 
> Asus ROG Gladius with palm grip (about the same size as Zowie EC1-B I think): https://i.imgur.com/FIIZ3ZC.jpg
> 
> Pretty awkward as you can see.


Those hands are made for fingertip grip, you're blessed use the the most flexible grip possible


----------



## Avalar

Any updates?


----------



## gipetto

did you see the reddit thread? https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/7zistn/new_landing_page_for_the_ninox_astrum/


----------



## Avalar

gipetto said:


> did you see the reddit thread? https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/7zistn/new_landing_page_for_the_ninox_astrum/


Nope, but I subbed with my email. ^-^


----------



## bst

I've found the company that makes optical switches, and encoders, should be trying some samples soon. Apparently the switches have a lifespan of 90 million, and don't need debouncing. So if they feel nice then they should be a very good choice. I like how the encoder is like a normal mechanical encoder but has the optical reader built in. I uploaded some pictures, click on them and you can see the animation of how they work.

I have the latest prototype of the Astrum now as well, I still need to make a couple of tweaks, but overall its very good, next week I'll be getting the quote from the factory for the tooling


----------



## gipetto

I'm excited to see a possibly more reliable scroll encoder being considered but i dare say most want the tactile response of a mechanical model. maybe this encoder has detents to give the same feel. I am unsure about whether optical switches are a good idea, as many like to customize their actuation force with their favourite microswitch, for jitter clicking or for larger hands such as my own where accidental clicks occur from the resting weight of a finger. 
I think a microswitch with gold plated contacts and hardware debounce may never succumb to contact failure and instead suffer wear on the plastic actuators leading to eventual inability to fully actuate. therefore it would be more reliable than an optical switch which can fail in the same way but also has has transistor hfe degradation as well as ir led failure.


----------



## James N

bst said:


> I've found the company that makes optical switches, and encoders, should be trying some samples soon. Apparently the switches have a lifespan of 90 million, and don't need debouncing. So if they feel nice then they should be a very good choice. I like how the encoder is like a normal mechanical encoder but has the optical reader built in. I uploaded some pictures, click on them and you can see the animation of how they work.
> 
> I have the latest prototype of the Astrum now as well, I still need to make a couple of tweaks, but overall its very good, next week I'll be getting the quote from the factory for the tooling


The A4Tech Bloody mice all have optical switches and they are amazing (since they can be tuned for minimum pre and post travel). Too bad the rest of the components in those mice are garbage. So having optical switches in a good mouse would be great news.


----------



## bst

This mouse uses the same switches and encoder: http://amzn.eu/cEfuQyj
I've ordered it to see what its like. Should have it on monday.

I've asked the company that makes them if they can adjust the detent torque on the scroll wheel, and the feel of the buttons. I'll let you know what they say.


----------



## senileoldman

Ah, man. I can't wait.

Optical switches and no debounce sounds really good, to be honest. Not many mice with optical switches, but can those be replaceable with mechanical ones? Some people may prefer mechanical switches. I personally don't care, but optical ones should be better and have less latency, no? 

What about having swappable switches like the Gladius?


----------



## Nx87

please keep the adjustable sensor position, that's the no#1 feature I care about
it's so key to my fingertip style and aim, I need that sensor up front, it changes everything

can't wait for this mouse!!


----------



## bst

senileoldman said:


> Ah, man. I can't wait.
> 
> Optical switches and no debounce sounds really good, to be honest. Not many mice with optical switches, but can those be replaceable with mechanical ones? Some people may prefer mechanical switches. I personally don't care that much, but optical ones should be better and have less latency, no?
> 
> What about having swappable switches like the Gladius?


The pins aren't compatible with normal switches, or even the programming afaik.

Swappable switches is fairly hard to do, its a bit complicated to explain. But it is fairly easy to make a different front button PCB and a firmware for it, I would rather do that for the few people who want to change it tbh.



Nx87 said:


> please keep the adjustable sensor position, that's the no#1 feature I care about
> it's so key to my fingertip style and aim, I need that sensor up front, it changes everything
> 
> can't wait for this mouse!!


I think I will keep it, it works really well. Still need to test some more things on it, but so far it just works, its easy to adjust it, and its very secure.

The thing that I might have to change is not use the bolt, I think it'll have to screw into the plastic. Putting the bolt in is fiddly, they don't like that kind of thing in the factory. I'm sure it'll be fine screwing into the plastic though, the bolts were probably overkill


----------



## Aliandro1d

\\\\\\OPTICAL SWITCH HYPE//////


----------



## xmr1

Is the actual scroll wheel itself final? I've seen it on a few of the prototypes but I'm not a fan of wheels with rows of spikes. I guess I could clip them off if it comes to that.


----------



## lurkerguy

xmr1 said:


> Is the actual scroll wheel itself final? I've seen it on a few of the prototypes but I'm not a fan of wheels with rows of spikes. I guess I could clip them off if it comes to that.


This would be nice to know. I already asked it before but didn't get an answer. I'm certain the community at large would much prefer your normal stripes instead of spikes.


----------



## bst

I can change it, but it'll probably be a stretch goal. Its not as spikey as it looks, in fact it feels very much like the normal lines when you rest your finger on it, so I don't want to add the cost of it to the funding goal. But I do want to change it to something more unique, because it is an OEM design which isn't as cool as having a unique one.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> I can change it, but it'll probably be a stretch goal. Its not as spikey as it looks, in fact it feels very much like the normal lines when you rest your finger on it, so I don't want to add the cost of it to the funding goal. But I do want to change it to something more unique, because it is an OEM design which isn't as cool as having a unique one.


You ever find those Japanese Omrons? ;3


----------



## senileoldman

Optical switches would be a big selling point.

Only a4tech has those, but their mice are really meh. So a real 3360 mouse with optical switches would be pretty nice.


----------



## johnstocktonmalone32

What do optical switches feel like and how are they different from Omron?


----------



## 2shellbonus

bst said:


> This mouse uses the same switches and encoder: http://amzn.eu/cEfuQyj
> I've ordered it to see what its like. Should have it on monday.
> 
> I've asked the company that makes them if they can adjust the detent torque on the scroll wheel, and the feel of the buttons. I'll let you know what they say.


Switches are ok. Sort of like Huanos but maybe less spammable.

Optical wheel encoder is meh. Has vague steps, double scrolls and I think 20 steps in total


----------



## end0rphine

2shellbonus said:


> Switches are ok. Sort of like Huanos but maybe less spammable.


That sounds horrible imo


----------



## trism

"Spammable" is so dependent on grip style and other factors. People praise e.g. G Pro being "spammable", but for me it's the worst when it comes to fast clicking. People say the new Steelseries mice have "horrible" buttons while I praise Rival 310's and Sensei 310's being the best ones available. KPOE and KPM are pretty good for spamming too for me and I would take Zowie over G Pro any day when it comes to clicks. The "spamming" motion for me comes from close the knuckle while I can see others spamming more with the tip of the finger, so to speak (I know I'm simplifying this and fingers are controlled by tendons with muscles in the arm).

Double scrolls can be firmware related too. People praise ALPS encoders, yet KPM/KPOE does double scroll for me and get stuck between the notches. Steelseries Rival 100 has never done this over one year period of use with its TTC(?).


----------



## 2shellbonus

trism said:


> "Spammable" is so dependent on grip style and other factors. People praise e.g. G Pro being "spammable", but for me it's the worst when it comes to fast clicking. People say the new Steelseries mice have "horrible" buttons while I praise Rival 310's and Sensei 310's being the best ones available. KPOE and KPM are pretty good for spamming too for me and I would take Zowie over G Pro any day when it comes to clicks. The "spamming" motion for me comes from close the knuckle while I can see others spamming more with the tip of the finger, so to speak (I know I'm simplifying this and fingers are controlled by tendons with muscles in the arm).
> 
> Double scrolls can be firmware related too. People praise ALPS encoders, yet KPM/KPOE does double scroll for me and get stuck between the notches. Steelseries Rival 100 has never done this over one year period of use with its TTC(?).


Erm the optical switches have a lazy spring on return. They dont pop back up as fast


----------



## trism

2shellbonus said:


> Erm the optical switches have a lazy spring on return. They dont pop back up as fast


Ok. I feel that same way about G Pro and its OMRONs, lazy springs and no popping back up 

I doubt bst is going to make the mistake of using those if they are bad though. I am curious which company it is though and if those switches can be bought in small quantities.


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> You ever find those Japanese Omrons? ;3


I talked to some suppliers and they're still looking into it, need to chase them up, but now curious what the opticals are like. The problem is that they're discontinued  So, if I get them, what if they're really old stock or, improperly stored, faulty... etc. Its ok buying a few, but when its thousands it gets scary, especially if they can ruin all the mice :/

I have the D2F-F-3-7 switches in the prototype at the moment, they feel a lot more tactile than the 50M China Omrons. They're also louder, but more of a dampened sound than a sharp click like Huanos. They also seem to have more overall travel than the 50Ms. To be honest they feel like very nice office/"luxury" switches rather than gaming switches, they just don't feel as fast as the 50Ms, but they feel very high quality.

To be honest it might be one of those "better the devil you know" situations where the 50Ms are the best choice overall. I still also wouldn't mind trying the TTC gold switches, who knows, maybe they're decent. I haven't heard of anyone who's used them yet. http://www.ttc9.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=482



trism said:


> Ok. I feel that same way about G Pro and its OMRONs, lazy springs and no popping back up
> 
> I doubt bst is going to make the mistake of using those if they are bad though. I am curious which company it is though and if those switches can be bought in small quantities.


Doesn't look like they can be bought in small quantities, the first thing they asked me was my monthly volume. They also aren't a straight swap for normal switches, they have 6 pins instead of 3, so you need to make a new PCB for them.

But yeah... I'll find out what they're like tomorrow. Hopefully 2shellbonus got a bad copy...


----------



## vanir1337

If you cannot solder in standard switches instead, please don't go with them, it's bad for the DIY-people. I'd probably solder in D2F-01F's in my copy anyways.
Any news on the scoll wheel encoder? Did I miss it?


----------



## bst

vanir1337 said:


> If you cannot solder in standard switches instead, please don't go with them, it's bad for the DIY-people. I'd probably solder in D2F-01F's in my copy anyways.
> Any news on the scoll wheel encoder? Did I miss it?


If they are decent switches then I have to think about most of the customers who would appreciate them, who don't want to solder in other switches. But if the mouse has the adjustable sensor, the front button PCB is very simple. I could easily sell some DIY boards so you could solder in any switches/encoders you like. How do you feel about that?

Sorry, not sure what news you mean about the scroll wheel encoder?


----------



## gipetto

I think he was referring to how you mentioned you had contacted the encoder factory to see about changing detent torque on the optical scroll. but maybe it's ok as is, idk. on a different matter is there anyway you could have a second pcb microswitch pinout located at 90 or 180 degrees to the optical pinout, but sharing the common pin as in the pic below?


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> If they are decent switches then I have to think about most of the customers who would appreciate them, who don't want to solder in other switches. But if the mouse has the adjustable sensor, the front button PCB is very simple. I could easily sell some DIY boards so you could solder in any switches/encoders you like. How do you feel about that?
> 
> Sorry, not sure what news you mean about the scroll wheel encoder?


Sounds super cool to be honest. 
What scroll wheel encoder model are you going to use exactly?


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> I think he was referring to how you mentioned you had contacted the encoder factory to see about changing detent torque on the optical scroll. but maybe it's ok as is, idk. on a different matter is there anyway you could have a second pcb microswitch pinout located at 90 or 180 degrees to the optical pinout, but sharing the common pin as in the pic below?


Unfortunately there isn't enough room to do that. I think in the end its easier to just sell the PCBs, you have to buy switches, remove the old PCB and solder things anyway. At least then you can put it back to standard if you need to.



vanir1337 said:


> Sounds super cool to be honest.
> What scroll wheel encoder model are you going to use exactly?


Still got to try the optical encoder. Maybe it'll suck, but I'll see what its like. I haven't asked about changing the detent torque yet, it seemed a bit premature since I haven't tried the encoder yet.

There is a nice F-Switch encoder which has a higher detent torque than the Venator's one. It has really defined steps but its still very smooth, its the best encoder I've ever used. In the Venator, the MMB switch is angled so the cylinder on the scroll wheel sits parallel above the actual switch button, so with such defined steps, the cylinder moves/vibrates back and forth over the button and makes a really annoying noise. So thats why I didn't use it on that mouse (The encoder is perfectly quiet on its own, though). So on the Astrum, the switch is rotated 90 degrees, so the cylinder is like this --- and the button on the switch is like this |. That way round, even if the cylinder moves around, it doesn't catch on the button and make an annoying sound. So I can use the higher torque scroll wheels on the Astrum.

At the moment the lineup is like this:
- F-Switch Encoder vs Optical
- TTC Gold switches vs D2FC(50M) vs Optical (maybe leave the Japanese Omrons for people who want to DIY)

If I were to bet, I would say the F-Switch is going to win the encoder battle, but I'm not sure about the switches. If both the optical and TTC switches feel really good, it'll be a hard decision, but if one of them feels worse, then it'll be a lot easier. If they both feel terrible, I might just give up and go with the D2FC(50M)'s. I don't love those switches, but at the same time they aren't bad switches.


----------



## iBerggman

I'm a bit surprised these prototype pictures haven't been reposted over here. Looks good but I'm a bit worried about how well the front right corner will work for me as it seems to be quite sharp. I tend to hold my mouse in a way that makes me curl my ring finger around the front of the mouse so shapes with sharp edges there like the Deathadder are pretty much unusable for me because of that but I'm hoping there's enough overhang to remedy that issue.


----------



## bst

The Bloody A70 mouse with the optical switches and scroll wheel came today, so far I'm impressed. I thought the mouse looked a bit cheap in the photos, but it feels like a quality mouse, no pre-travel or rattles. Downsides are the weight, balance, cord and 3050 sensor though, and its not super comfortable (but not uncomfortable).

The switches don't remind me of Huanos that much, they're much quieter and easier to press. Maybe you could say they're like quiet and easy to press Huanos, they have a pretty well defined activation like Huanos. However they are also quite similar to the Omron D2F-F-3-7's, but with less travel. They even make a similar kind of sound.

The D2FC(50M) are a fair bit louder than these, but they're better than the the optical and the F-3-7 for spamming, IMO. But the D2FC's sound cheaper (sharper, less dampened sound). For overall feel, when it comes to gaming, I think I'd put the D2FCs first, then the opticals, then the F-3-7's. Depends if you're spamming or not though. But one thing the opticals have in their favour is the key response is amazing, and if they last as long as they claim, then they're clear winners IMO, and its not like the spamming is bad, its just not on the same level as the D2FC's, but I'm sure it could be gotten used to.

The scroll wheel encoder also feels very nice, I think the 20 steps is pretty good, it makes them a little bit more defined, but I don't see that it makes a big difference, especially not a negative one, maybe someone can enlighten me if they know why 20 steps is worse than 24? It feels nicer than the F-Switch in the Venator I have sitting next to it, which is quite an achievement I didn't expect.

So far I'm finding it very difficult to fault this switch and encoder, I didn't have the highest expectations, but they are up there with the best from I've seen on this mouse. I'm going to carry on using it and see how it goes. After using it a while, maybe I'll change my mind. I can't see that happening, but you never know.


----------



## bst

iBerggman said:


> I'm a bit surprised these prototype pictures haven't been reposted over here. Looks good but I'm a bit worried about how well the front right corner will work for me as it seems to be quite sharp. I tend to hold my mouse in a way that makes me curl my ring finger around the front of the mouse so shapes with sharp edges there like the Deathadder are pretty much unusable for me because of that but I'm hoping there's enough overhang to remedy that issue.


You would have to have an extremely long ring finger, or just very big hands overall to be able to wrap your finger around the front, my hands are 19.5cm long and I still have 0.5-1cm of room in front of my ring finger when palming it.


----------



## iBerggman

bst said:


> You would have to have an extremely long ring finger, or just very big hands overall to be able to wrap your finger around the front, my hands are 19.5cm long and I still have 0.5-1cm of room in front of my ring finger when palming it.



Nice, should fit me pretty much perfectly then. Now that I think of it 133mm is the same length as the Rival 300 and that was pretty much spot on for me as far as length goes, too bad everything else about it was/is average at best. ^^


----------



## popups

I'm not a fan of that shape. Seems kind of thin in the front and the thumb area will be problematic for me.


----------



## bst

popups said:


> I'm not a fan of that shape. Seems kind of thin in the front and the thumb area will be problematic for me.


Don't know what you mean, you can't see the thumb area in those pics? Thumb area and width is like a WMO.

I absolutely love that shape, its my favourite shape ever, I don't want to take my hand off of it  I thought I'd prefer one of the others but I just love the mix of ergo and ambi.


----------



## 2shellbonus

bst said:


> The Bloody A70 mouse with the optical switches and scroll wheel came today, so far I'm impressed. I thought the mouse looked a bit cheap in the photos, but it feels like a quality mouse, no pre-travel or rattles. Downsides are the weight, balance, cord and 3050 sensor though, and its not super comfortable (but not uncomfortable).
> 
> The switches don't remind me of Huanos that much, they're much quieter and easier to press. Maybe you could say they're like quiet and easy to press Huanos, they have a pretty well defined activation like Huanos. However they are also quite similar to the Omron D2F-F-3-7's, but with less travel. They even make a similar kind of sound.
> 
> The D2FC(50M) are a fair bit louder than these, but they're better than the the optical and the F-3-7 for spamming, IMO. But the D2FC's sound cheaper (sharper, less dampened sound). For overall feel, when it comes to gaming, I think I'd put the D2FCs first, then the opticals, then the F-3-7's. Depends if you're spamming or not though. But one thing the opticals have in their favour is the key response is amazing, and if they last as long as they claim, then they're clear winners IMO, and its not like the spamming is bad, its just not on the same level as the D2FC's, but I'm sure it could be gotten used to.
> 
> The scroll wheel encoder also feels very nice, I think the 20 steps is pretty good, it makes them a little bit more defined, but I don't see that it makes a big difference, especially not a negative one, maybe someone can enlighten me if they know why 20 steps is worse than 24? It feels nicer than the F-Switch in the Venator I have sitting next to it, which is quite an achievement I didn't expect.
> 
> So far I'm finding it very difficult to fault this switch and encoder, I didn't have the highest expectations, but they are up there with the best from I've seen on this mouse. I'm going to carry on using it and see how it goes. After using it a while, maybe I'll change my mind. I can't see that happening, but you never know.


Well my xp is based on the A91, P93 mice.
I find the buttons terrible for semi auto. Really lazy spring back action. While the T7 that has the basic omrons has a much snappier feel to it. 
You can compare the two by getting the A7 and A70 or the A6 and A60.

Wheel encoder is weird. Try using it in game for a while. On the A91 i immediately got double scrolling issue (much like on the old MS mice and to some extent Zowie 24 step encoders)/ But this might also be due to the fast that the steps are not as well defined as on other mech encoders. Again T7, A7, A6 have better scrolls in my opinion.

Weight can be lowered by removing the internal weight, and while the 3050 sensor is meh, they've done some tuning to it, so that it has features like lod calibration and non native dpi steps.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> I talked to some suppliers and they're still looking into it, need to chase them up, but now curious what the opticals are like. The problem is that they're discontinued  So, if I get them, what if they're really old stock or, improperly stored, faulty... etc. Its ok buying a few, but when its thousands it gets scary, especially if they can ruin all the mice :/
> 
> I have the D2F-F-3-7 switches in the prototype at the moment, they feel a lot more tactile than the 50M China Omrons. They're also louder, but more of a dampened sound than a sharp click like Huanos. They also seem to have more overall travel than the 50Ms. To be honest they feel like very nice office/"luxury" switches rather than gaming switches, they just don't feel as fast as the 50Ms, but they feel very high quality.
> 
> To be honest it might be one of those "better the devil you know" situations where the 50Ms are the best choice overall. I still also wouldn't mind trying the TTC gold switches, who knows, maybe they're decent. I haven't heard of anyone who's used them yet. http://www.ttc9.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=482


That's alright. Whatever you think is best. ^-^ I don't think I've ever actually used the switches; I just heard the QC for them was better and they were lighter, so why not use them, right? But if they're discontinued, yeah, that would be an issue. And besides, if what you said before about the clicks feeling crisp and light has more to do with how the buttons and shell are constructed, it shouldn't matter, right?

Btw, something I've been curious about lately. Not saying you _should_ do this with the Astrum, but I'm wondering if it's a mod I could do to any mouse. Would making the buttons heavier, thus already constantly applying some force to the switch and making it easier to push, ruin the lifespan of the switch?


----------



## Aliandro1d

Gonna throw it our there don't have your mind blown guys ok you rdy.......
ROG SICA SWITCH SOCKETS/Epic GEAR Morpha x has em too 
I know you've designed the mouse already but maybe look at these sockets for switched that allow swapping and eveyone is happy and it adds to the DIY mass customisation effect your goin for, you can probably easily add them by shortening the switch activators on the shell piece they're about 3-5 mm tall dunno how flat you can get them doe probably pretty flat doe its just a socket


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

Oh god, that switch socket design Dexin did for certain ROG mice. The switches would always eventually start to wobble around in the sockets.


----------



## bst

2shellbonus said:


> Well my xp is based on the A91, P93 mice.
> I find the buttons terrible for semi auto. Really lazy spring back action. While the T7 that has the basic omrons has a much snappier feel to it.
> You can compare the two by getting the A7 and A70 or the A6 and A60.
> 
> Wheel encoder is weird. Try using it in game for a while. On the A91 i immediately got double scrolling issue (much like on the old MS mice and to some extent Zowie 24 step encoders)/ But this might also be due to the fast that the steps are not as well defined as on other mech encoders. Again T7, A7, A6 have better scrolls in my opinion.
> 
> Weight can be lowered by removing the internal weight, and while the 3050 sensor is meh, they've done some tuning to it, so that it has features like lod calibration and non native dpi steps.


I done some tests with a high speed camera, filming just the switches, to take the shells out of the equation. I tested the Omron 50M vs opticals, and there is slightly more release force on the Omrons, however its a pretty small difference, around 8gf. I might try asking them if they'll increase it, not sure if its possible though. I can see how this is an issue though, its a shame because other than that they feel nice to use, and they have the (apparently) longer lifespan and no debounce latency advantages.

I've been thoroughly testing the scroll wheel and honestly I love it, I can't get it to act up at all, steps are very nicely defined, I just can't fault it so far. There is a slightly larger deadzone in between steps, so each step needs a bit more intent, but in that way its harder to accidentally scroll more steps than needed.

Could you tell me how many of the optical mice have you used, and how long ago it was? Did more than one scroll wheel act up, or was it just the one? 

I think I should go all in, on either optical or mechanical, ie. if I use the optical switches, then also use the optical encoder, and vice versa with mechanical.

Things I'm going to do:
- The TTC Gold switches will be arriving soon, will test them
- I will speak to the optical switch company about the concerns
- I already know what the other switches and encoders are like, so after the above two points are answered, I can kind of score each option on their pros/cons/risks and choose a winner.



Avalar said:


> That's alright. Whatever you think is best. ^-^ I don't think I've ever actually used the switches; I just heard the QC for them was better and they were lighter, so why not use them, right? But if they're discontinued, yeah, that would be an issue. And besides, if what you said before about the clicks feeling crisp and light has more to do with how the buttons and shell are constructed, it shouldn't matter, right?
> 
> Btw, something I've been curious about lately. Not saying you _should_ do this with the Astrum, but I'm wondering if it's a mod I could do to any mouse. Would making the buttons heavier, thus already constantly applying some force to the switch and making it easier to push, ruin the lifespan of the switch?


The F-3-7's feel heavier than D2F-01Fs, they feel sort of clunky and dampened. They're ok, they just don't feel like "game" switches to me though, the D2F-01F's are a lot nicer. My personal preference is the D2FCs though, maybe I'm just used to them. They feel lower quality, but that makes them feel more snappy, more like performance switches rather than office switches.

I'm not sure how much it would damage the lifespan of the switches if you put weights in the buttons, never tried it  If you wanted to do it, it would probably be good to use tiny neodymium magnets attracted to screws, or stick some metal down for it to attract to, like a magnet with 20g of pulling force would be better than adding 20g to each button. But yeah I don't have a good answer, I'm sure it would shorten the lifespan, just not sure by how much.



uaokkkkkkkk said:


> Oh god, that switch socket design Dexin did for certain ROG mice. The switches would always eventually start to wobble around in the sockets.


Yeah, I don't mind the concept, but to make a truly good one would be a big project in itself, needing a lot of testing, and in the end it might not turn out good enough.


----------



## Aliandro1d

uaokkkkkkkk said:


> Oh god, that switch socket design Dexin did for certain ROG mice. The switches would always eventually start to wobble around in the sockets.


My sica still tight after a years use, thinking of it now if the switches are all different widths it prob wouldn't work anyway having the option of Omron to Optical etc.


----------



## thrillhaus

vanir1337 said:


> If you cannot solder in standard switches instead, please don't go with them, it's bad for the DIY-people. I'd probably solder in D2F-01F's in my copy anyways.


I have to disagree with this. I'd normally be for keeping customization options open but not at the cost of progress. Optical switches would mean no debounce and no need for cleaning and maintenance. These are performance gains that would be worth getting used to a different feeling switch.


----------



## gipetto

I just want to say that if bst is going to use optical switches or encoders and not going to direct us to a supplier then he is morally obligated to offer for sale replacement parts out of warranty, so that we would be not left with abandonware.


----------



## blackmesatech

bst said:


> The Bloody A70 mouse with the optical switches and scroll wheel came today, so far I'm impressed. I thought the mouse looked a bit cheap in the photos, but it feels like a quality mouse, no pre-travel or rattles. Downsides are the weight, balance, cord and 3050 sensor though, and its not super comfortable (but not uncomfortable).
> 
> The switches don't remind me of Huanos that much, they're much quieter and easier to press. Maybe you could say they're like quiet and easy to press Huanos, they have a pretty well defined activation like Huanos. However they are also quite similar to the Omron D2F-F-3-7's, but with less travel. They even make a similar kind of sound.
> 
> The D2FC(50M) are a fair bit louder than these, but they're better than the the optical and the F-3-7 for spamming, IMO. But the D2FC's sound cheaper (sharper, less dampened sound). For overall feel, when it comes to gaming, I think I'd put the D2FCs first, then the opticals, then the F-3-7's. Depends if you're spamming or not though. But one thing the opticals have in their favour is the key response is amazing, and if they last as long as they claim, then they're clear winners IMO, and its not like the spamming is bad, its just not on the same level as the D2FC's, but I'm sure it could be gotten used to.
> 
> The scroll wheel encoder also feels very nice, I think the 20 steps is pretty good, it makes them a little bit more defined, but I don't see that it makes a big difference, especially not a negative one, maybe someone can enlighten me if they know why 20 steps is worse than 24? It feels nicer than the F-Switch in the Venator I have sitting next to it, which is quite an achievement I didn't expect.
> 
> So far I'm finding it very difficult to fault this switch and encoder, I didn't have the highest expectations, but they are up there with the best from I've seen on this mouse. I'm going to carry on using it and see how it goes. After using it a while, maybe I'll change my mind. I can't see that happening, but you never know.



Have you tested the click latency on the A70?
https://youtu.be/oTN1LVp5sgg?t=267



thrillhaus said:


> I have to disagree with this. I'd normally be for keeping customization options open but not at the cost of progress. Optical switches would mean no debounce and no need for cleaning and maintenance. These are performance gains that would be worth getting used to a different feeling switch.



I wouldn't say it's progress if it's implemented poorly like it appears to be in the review above. I do understand the concern for debounce but cleaning? Really? Also I don't know how much experience bst has with optical switches or if this would be his first implementation of it which could be a risk in some ways.


----------



## 2shellbonus

blackmesatech said:


> Have you tested the click latency on the A70?
> .


7-8 ms quicker than a g303


----------



## 2shellbonus

bst said:


> I done some tests with a high speed camera, filming just the switches, to take the shells out of the equation. I tested the Omron 50M vs opticals, and there is slightly more release force on the Omrons, however its a pretty small difference, around 8gf. I might try asking them if they'll increase it, not sure if its possible though. I can see how this is an issue though, its a shame because other than that they feel nice to use, and they have the (apparently) longer lifespan and no debounce latency advantages.
> 
> I've been thoroughly testing the scroll wheel and honestly I love it, I can't get it to act up at all, steps are very nicely defined, I just can't fault it so far. There is a slightly larger deadzone in between steps, so each step needs a bit more intent, but in that way its harder to accidentally scroll more steps than needed.
> 
> Could you tell me how many of the optical mice have you used, and how long ago it was? Did more than one scroll wheel act up, or was it just the one?
> 
> I think I should go all in, on either optical or mechanical, ie. if I use the optical switches, then also use the optical encoder, and vice versa with mechanical.


I've used:

A90, A91, A60, A70, P93.

A91 was an early release model. I cant remember the date exactly, but a year or more has passed since I got it. This is the only mouse that I have consistently gotten double scrolls on

The last is the p93 on the 3325 sensor. It has no scroll issues, except for vague steps. The buttons themselves have bot changed. 
Maybe its the button design on the bloody mice that is also a factor in the lazy feeling of the switch, dunno.


----------



## blackmesatech

2shellbonus said:


> 7-8 ms quicker than a g303



So do you think the reason why it was so much slower in that review was because of a firmware issue or the reviewer?

I couldn't find any other review or mention of that mouse where someone did a click latency test so wanted to be sure before bst went down the optical rabbit hole. Thanks for posting. Have you opened that mouse up before and taken photos of the inside?


----------



## bst

I just tested the click latency, A70 vs Venator, and the Venator was faster by 10ms on average. Thought maybe the FW needed updating on the Bloody mouse, but results are the same after updating. Both on 1000hz too. Its strange, the Venator should be on par with the G303 so I was expecting the A70 to be faster.

Having watched the video you posted blackmesatech, I suspect the A70 has bad FW, and the switches themselves are ok. I'm going to see if I can connect the teensy up to them and get better results.

I don't have a photo of the insides, but they're nothing special. Just a red PCB with a 3050 sensor in the middle, the optical switches/encoder look like their mechanical variants, so you're not missing much.


----------



## Argowashi

I think what you need to do is compare all the switches and encoders while they're hooked up to your teensy setup, for a fair comparison of latencies and all of that.


----------



## Aliandro1d

@bst do you know how thick/thiin the base of a mouse should be where the lense sits for the 3310? and 3360? I'm 3D printing a shell atm and only info i can find is "contact pixart sales" for the specs. The lense mount will just hold onto the outside no pyramid part in the centre cause the pcb im using holds the lense well enough as it is. Right now im working with 3mm thickness will see how hight the LOD is.


----------



## Aliandro1d




----------



## Aliandro1d

Triple post with 500GB upload XD nice website OCN freezes on posting


----------



## gipetto

the datasheet says 2.4 mm but i doubt the mouse will lose tracking at higher distances. it might help to lower the lod if it was higher
https://d3s5r33r268y59.cloudfront.n...DM-T2QU-DS-R1.50-26092016._20161202173741.pdf


----------



## trism

gipetto said:


> the datasheet says 2.4 mm but i doubt the mouse will lose tracking at higher distances. it might help to lower the lod if it was higher
> https://d3s5r33r268y59.cloudfront.n...DM-T2QU-DS-R1.50-26092016._20161202173741.pdf



Hmm. I wonder where people get that datasheet without watermarks. Happen to have one for 3325 or 3330?


----------



## gipetto

http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/PMW3325DB-TWV1-GDS-R1.40-12082016_20160902192422.pdf
same spacing, 2.4mm i just googled the sensor. the first pdf is from the tindie 3360 board.


----------



## trism

gipetto said:


> http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/PMW3325DB-TWV1-GDS-R1.40-12082016_20160902192422.pdf
> same spacing, 2.4mm i just googled the sensor. the first pdf is from the tindie 3360 board.



Ah, the tindie one. I meant the full datasheet but thanks anyways


----------



## bst

Heres a 3D file I made in STEP format, its the lens holder for the 3360, made to the datasheet specs. You might want to increase the height of the surround so the lens is held in a bit more securely in a 3D print, and the mouse foot surround could probably be removed or changed too.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Asked this before, but maybe you missed it. No biggie. I was wondering if the Astrum will have the same pin arrangement as the Venator, so I can put in for a Paracord cable early.

Thanks. ^-^


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Asked this before, but maybe you missed it. No biggie. I was wondering if the Astrum will have the same pin arrangement as the Venator, so I can put in for a Paracord cable early.
> 
> Thanks. ^-^


Sorry I missed your question, the answer is yes, it will be the same


----------



## Aliandro1d

K thx guys shell for rog sica pcb and then g303 pcb coming with in the weeks(prob 5-6 if im lazy) POGGERS new to this but lrnin fast have base with posts made(sica pcb) just needed to know optimal height for base cause it affects how high the lense sits. mouse is 10.5cm 6 wide gona be similar to mastermouse s but straight sides. I'll post it here when i'm done cause nice guy.


----------



## bst

Aliandro1d said:


> K thx guys shell for rog sica pcb and then g303 pcb coming with in the weeks(prob 5-6 if im lazy) POGGERS new to this but lrnin fast have base with posts made(sica pcb) just needed to know optimal height for base cause it affects how high the lense sits. mouse is 10.5cm 6 wide gona be similar to mastermouse s but straight sides. I'll post it here when i'm done cause nice guy.


If you put 0.5mm feet on the 3d file I posted, then its the right height. If you want to use 0.8mm feet, then lower the lens holder floor by 0.3mm, or make a 0.3mm indent for the feet in the base.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the Astrum, better if you start a thread about it if you have more questions, or its not really fair on people reading this thread.


----------



## Nx87

Have you finalized the size of the mousefeet yet?
I'm thinking like, if the feet are on the small side and have plastic guide "railings" around the edges sometimes that can restrict what kind of aftermarket mousefeet that can be used.

Personally, for the sake of consistancy I have a preference for multiple smaller feet rather than 2x large pad feet (eg: FK2) for my aim.
Where possible, depending on what the shell allows for, I am using Hyperglide GPro or IME3.0 feet.

Also, I think it's a nice bonus if that can be done while still having the screw-holes exposed.


----------



## iBerggman

Nx87 said:


> Have you finalized the size of the mousefeet yet?
> I'm thinking like, if the feet are on the small side and have plastic guide "railings" around the edges sometimes that can restrict what kind of aftermarket mousefeet that can be used.
> 
> Personally, for the sake of consistancy I have a preference for multiple smaller feet rather than 2x large pad feet (eg: FK2) for my aim.
> Where possible, depending on what the shell allows for, I am using Hyperglide GPro or IME3.0 feet.
> 
> Also, I think it's a nice bonus if that can be done while still having the screw-holes exposed.


I assume you've already seen this? They might ofc have been changed in the more recent versions of the prototype with the addition of the movable sensor but it shouldn't be a problem as bst already said he deliberately made the mousefeet bigger so we would be able to fit hyperglides or other mousefeet on it.


----------



## Nx87

That's perfect then, I guess since the screw on the rear end is exposed that it might be the only one holding the top shell down.
Always a real shame potentially ruining mousefeet just to open it up.


----------



## bst

The rear mouse foot is a bit different now, the middle of the two is filled in (so now its one mouse foot), with a hole for the screw. But overall the shape is the same.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> The rear mouse foot is a bit different now, the middle of the two is filled in (so now its one mouse foot), with a hole for the screw. But overall the shape is the same.


What would be more ideal for aftermarket feet, 0.5mm or 1.0mm thickness?


----------



## bst

MattKelly said:


> What would be more ideal for aftermarket feet, 0.5mm or 1.0mm thickness?


0.6 is the standard thickness used, you could get away with something like 0.3-0.8. 1mm would probably be ok, I haven't tried that thick though.


----------



## 2shellbonus

bst said:


> I just tested the click latency, A70 vs Venator, and the Venator was faster by 10ms on average. Thought maybe the FW needed updating on the Bloody mouse, but results are the same after updating. Both on 1000hz too. Its strange, the Venator should be on par with the G303 so I was expecting the A70 to be faster.
> 
> Having watched the video you posted blackmesatech, I suspect the A70 has bad FW, and the switches themselves are ok. I'm going to see if I can connect the teensy up to them and get better results.
> 
> I don't have a photo of the insides, but they're nothing special. Just a red PCB with a 3050 sensor in the middle, the optical switches/encoder look like their mechanical variants, so you're not missing much.


Was the sensor on the Bloody mouse tracking or not tracking when bump testing?

The sensor has to be tracking, as the Bloody FW adds latency to the clicks when the sensor is up in the air


----------



## bst

2shellbonus said:


> Was the sensor on the Bloody mouse tracking or not tracking when bump testing?
> 
> The sensor has to be tracking, as the Bloody FW adds latency to the clicks when the sensor is up in the air


Oh yeah, thanks, its coming out as expected now


----------



## bst

Things are really starting to come together with the mouse now.

I didn't get the chance to send the 3D files to the factory this week, because the CAD company had a situation where they had to pull everyone together for an emergency project. Wasn't much I could do but mutter about it. But the last two days have had work done, and it should be FINALLY finished on Monday. This mouse has literally had every square millimetre gone over with a fine tooth comb  Its been so much fun though, I'm going to miss this stage of the project.

Software is well underway too. I didn't start it until fairly recently because I was still umming and ahhing over using the Venator MCU. But the "solutions company" (as the factory calls them) for that MCU have been letting me down recently, so it swayed me firmly towards the in house programming. One cool thing was, Atmel offer free PIDs, I didn't know they done that. Usually to get a PID it costs $5000 from USB-IF (you actually get 65,000 of them, but theres no option to buy less), its crazy. You need a PID, which is a unique identifier for your product, or it can clash with other products software/firmware updaters and so on. So thanks to Atmel


----------



## Klopfer

sounds good


----------



## ewiggle

bst said:


> The rear mouse foot is a bit different now, the middle of the two is filled in (so now its one mouse foot), with a hole for the screw. But overall the shape is the same.


I'm glad to hear this. Big fan of big feet and their smoothness vs having a bunch of smaller feet.


----------



## senileoldman

Ah, finally. Can't wait.


----------



## thrillhaus

blackmesatech said:


> I wouldn't say it's progress if it's implemented poorly like it appears to be in the review above. I do understand the concern for debounce but cleaning? Really? Also I don't know how much experience bst has with optical switches or if this would be his first implementation of it which could be a risk in some ways.


Yes, cleaning. Perhaps you've never had a mouse with a low enough debounce to develop double clicks.


----------



## blackmesatech

thrillhaus said:


> Yes, cleaning. Perhaps you've never had a mouse with a low enough debounce to develop double clicks.



Perhaps you should try reading what I said. I mentioned understanding the concern for debounce but if you need an optical switch because the inside of your mouse gets so dirty you need to open it up regularly to clean the switches themselves I would be more concerned about changing the environment or area I was playing in.


----------



## senileoldman

Any news?


----------



## bst

senileoldman said:


> Any news?



Nothing too exciting just yet, things are just moving along to the next stage. Won't be much longer though. The factory is just signing a NNN agreement (like an NDA but more in depth, which stops them disclosing or making the mouse for anyone but me), then they'll be sent the 3d files for the quote, so I might have the quote by the end of the week or monday. Then its ready to go!


----------



## Horsey

i don't know if i'm gonna like the shape or not

but i just bought the venator and i will get the new mouse, just to support this guy


----------



## Parker34

Hi bst, i was wondering what the measurements are ? Especially the grip size. Thank you


----------



## iBerggman

Parker34 said:


> Hi bst, i was wondering what the measurements are ? Especially the grip size. Thank you


Not sure about the grip width but the overall dimensions were posted on the first or second page:

"These are the measurements, I forgot before to include the mouse feet in the height, so its 40mm.
Alpha: 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH)
Beta: 133 x 68 x 40mm
Gamma: 133 x 73 x 40mm

133mm long might sound quite large, but its just because the buttons extend out at the front. If you look at the side view, the base of the mouse is 124mm long, then theres 9mm of button overhang. So basically just an extra cm for those with longer fingers."


----------



## Parker34

iBerggman said:


> Not sure about the grip width but the overall dimensions were posted on the first or second page:
> 
> "These are the measurements, I forgot before to include the mouse feet in the height, so its 40mm.
> Alpha: 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH)
> Beta: 133 x 68 x 40mm
> Gamma: 133 x 73 x 40mm
> 
> 133mm long might sound quite large, but its just because the buttons extend out at the front. If you look at the side view, the base of the mouse is 124mm long, then theres 9mm of button overhang. So basically just an extra cm for those with longer fingers."


Thanks for the reply.

I suppose the width is the width of the rear, not the grip width, and that's essentially what i am looking for because it's very important to me, as it influences my aiming a lot.


----------



## bst

Parker34 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I suppose the width is the width of the rear, not the grip width, and that's essentially what i am looking for because it's very important to me, as it influences my aiming a lot.


The grip width of the Alpha and Beta shapes is 58mm, although for the Beta it depends how far back you hold it. It gradually gets wider towards the rear. If you combine the beta and gamma sides, then it adds about 2-4mm (grip width = 60-62mm).


----------



## Parker34

bst said:


> The grip width of the Alpha and Beta shapes is 58mm, although for the Beta it depends how far back you hold it. It gradually gets wider towards the rear. If you combine the beta and gamma sides, then it adds about 2-4mm (grip width = 60-62mm).


Thanks for the reply bst.

58 mm is actually my preferred grip width. Can't wait to see it in stores.


----------



## popups

58mm is too small for me. The Zowie AM isn't as comfortable as wider mice. I had to add width to the Zowie FK since it was thinner than the AM.


----------



## Parker34

popups said:


> 58mm is too small for me. The Zowie AM isn't as comfortable as wider mice. I had to add width to the Zowie FK since it was thinner than the AM.


58mm is the smallest grip width. If you go with the beta or gamma, the mouse will be wider.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> senileoldman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any news?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing too exciting just yet, things are just moving along to the next stage. Won't be much longer though. The factory is just signing a NNN agreement (like an NDA but more in depth, which stops them disclosing or making the mouse for anyone but me), then they'll be sent the 3d files for the quote, so I might have the quote by the end of the week or monday. Then its ready to go! /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Click to expand...

The anticipation is palpable. ;0


----------



## Leopardi

Parker34 said:


> 58mm is the smallest grip width. If you go with the beta or gamma, the mouse will be wider.


But those grips ruin the shape.

I don't know how to feel about the 58mm width. In a FK2 it feels too thin, but then again the G Pro feels "okay", even though it's only 50mm.


----------



## bst

Leopardi said:


> But those grips ruin the shape.
> 
> I don't know how to feel about the 58mm width. In a FK2 it feels too thin, but then again the G Pro feels "okay", even though it's only 50mm.


The thing is, 58mm feels wider than usual on the Astrum, because the sides are completely straight (vertically). Both the G Pro and FK have sides which taper down so they're thinner on their base. It doesn't really feel like a thin or small mouse, it feels very much "medium". Basically just think WMO, that doesn't feel like a thin mouse, but it has the same grip width.


----------



## popups

bst said:


> The thing is, 58mm feels wider than usual on the Astrum, because the sides are completely straight (vertically). Both the G Pro and FK have sides which taper down so they're thinner on their base. It doesn't really feel like a thin or small mouse, it feels very much "medium". Basically just think WMO, that doesn't feel like a thin mouse, but it has the same grip width.


The WMO feels thin to me. So much so that my little finger hurts because the rear is wider at the top.


----------



## Avalar

popups said:


> bst said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, 58mm feels wider than usual on the Astrum, because the sides are completely straight (vertically). Both the G Pro and FK have sides which taper down so they're thinner on their base. It doesn't really feel like a thin or small mouse, it feels very much "medium". Basically just think WMO, that doesn't feel like a thin mouse, but it has the same grip width.
> 
> 
> 
> The WMO feels thin to me. So much so that my little finger hurts because the rear is wider at the top.
Click to expand...

Why not apply tape to the sides?


----------



## bst

popups said:


> The WMO feels thin to me. So much so that my little finger hurts because the rear is wider at the top.


Thats one of the reasons the gamma side exists


----------



## popups

Avalar said:


> Why not apply tape to the sides?


I don't want to mess up an item I can't easily replace. I killed my ZA messing with it, but I knew I would be able to reuse the parts and replace it if I wanted to.


----------



## senileoldman

After you get the quote for the mouse, are you going to launch the Kickstarter, Fundme, whatever?


----------



## Avalar

popups said:


> I don't want to mess up an item I can't easily replace. I killed my ZA messing with it, but I knew I would be able to reuse the parts and replace it if I wanted to.


bst spoke of templates for 3D-printing parts.


----------



## chort

*mouse specifications*

can you post the mouse specification that you currently have available?
weight for alpha shape
beta + gamma
sizes (grip width at the top and bottom of the mouse, with the different shells)
basically everything you have to be compiled in one comment/post (and any pictures that show the sizes)


----------



## Avalar

I’m ready
I’m ready
I’m ready


----------



## wmoftw

Really looking forward to the beta ix, looks very similar to the WMO shape. I saw some pics on FB, looks great!


----------



## Ricey20

which shell is most similar to Venator?


----------



## lurkerguy

Kickstarter never FeelsBadMan

None of the shapes are even close to Venator or ZA since the bump is in the middle in beta and gamma instead more in the back and alpha is even more low profile.


----------



## bst

Little bit of news (more of a progress report really):

There isn't much left to do now. I've pretty much finished all the text for the crowdfund page. The only main thing with that now is getting photos - I want to use real photos where I can, and videos showing the prototype, rather than 3D models. I think that, even though it won't look as good, its more genuine (although, there will be renders as well). I'm picking up the ultra final, super last prototype tomorrow, which will be used in all the shots. The only other thing I need to know is exactly how long its going to take to make the tooling, but the factory is working on that now.

I've got a new cable coming, maybe it'll get here tomorrow, also the TTC gold switches, which I'm curious about. But I think optical might be the way forward. The manufacturers said they can be customised, so I should be able to get them feeling nice. Although I think they already feel pretty good, and are worth it when all their advantages are taken into account. 

But yeah, not long now 




lurkerguy said:


> Kickstarter never FeelsBadMan
> 
> None of the shapes are even close to Venator or ZA since the bump is in the middle in beta and gamma instead more in the back and alpha is even more low profile.


Yeah, thats true. You could probably 3D print a Venator shape that would fit the astrum though, if you really wanted.

I was thinking if all goes well with the Astrum though, I could make a Venator V2, pretty much the same mouse but improved (new shell and use the same firmware as the Astrum). Or maybe just make the parts for the Astrum to make it more Venatorish, if it works well.


----------



## wmoftw

bst said:


> Little bit of news (more of a progress report really):
> 
> There isn't much left to do now. I've pretty much finished all the text for the crowdfund page. The only main thing with that now is getting photos - I want to use real photos where I can, and videos showing the prototype, rather than 3D models. I think that, even though it won't look as good, its more genuine (although, there will be renders as well). I'm picking up the ultra final, super last prototype tomorrow, which will be used in all the shots. The only other thing I need to know is exactly how long its going to take to make the tooling, but the factory is working on that now.
> 
> I've got a new cable coming, maybe it'll get here tomorrow, also the TTC gold switches, which I'm curious about. But I think optical might be the way forward. The manufacturers said they can be customised, so I should be able to get them feeling nice. Although I think they already feel pretty good, and are worth it when all their advantages are taken into account.
> 
> But yeah, not long now
> 
> Yeah, thats true. You could probably 3D print a Venator shape that would fit the astrum though, if you really wanted.
> 
> I was thinking if all goes well with the Astrum though, I could make a Venator V2, pretty much the same mouse but improved (new shell and use the same firmware as the Astrum). Or maybe just make the parts for the Astrum to make it more Venatorish, if it works well.


Sounds great! What type of cable will it be? All this news includes the beta shell correct?


----------



## senileoldman

Hope you go with the optical ones.

I'LL BE WAITING FOR THE CROWDFUND.


----------



## bst

wmoftw said:


> Sounds great! What type of cable will it be? All this news includes the beta shell correct?


Its meant to be close to a paracord (with a shield), but the proof will be in the pudding 

I think they might be sending me one without a shield as well, it has a magnet on it, but I don't think it'll be enough to pass FCC/CE. If it does, it'll be cool, but I doubt it.

Yep, everything I said includes the Beta shape, along with all the other shapes. Maybe the title of this thread confuses things a bit, the mouse doesn't have interchangeable shells, but more like interchangeable panels. So when you buy an Astrum, you can make any of the shapes, theres 3 main shapes (two of which their side panels can be combined), and in total 13 different ways you can configure it (mostly whether or not you want side buttons on the left or right, or none at all).

I will go into exactly how it works in the crowdfunding page, if anyone is interested in knowing more about it. Its not a hotswap style modular mouse, but uses a kind of sandwich design, so everything gets locked in place when the top panel is screwed in.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Estimated price for the best/biggest crowdfund package?


----------



## bst

Well, until I hear back from the factory with the tooling, I'm not sure. I know the price of the PCB and all those components, but I have to get the price for the manufacturing and plastics.

I *estimate* the mouse will be $15 more than the Venator, thats how its looking. I highly doubt it will be more than that.

The perks/packages are pretty simple - about a $20 premium for custom colours/materials, and you can order in packs of 5.

Both of the above will have early purchase discounts.

There may be a very limited amount of pre-production packs. Per mouse, it'll be by far the most expensive. But its for people who A, really want it before everyone else, and/or B, want to support as much as possible. 

I'm not sure if I'm overstepping the mark by talking about prices on here, so this post might be deleted. But I will be putting up the full prices and options on facebook as soon as I know them.


----------



## gipetto

I came across the seller of the optical scroll encoder and noticed the picture indicated the wheel axle has 5 sides, every other wheel axle having six sides. will you be able to source an oem wheel compatible with it?


----------



## iBerggman

Wait what, order in packs of 5? As in different shells or what?

Also what features can we expect to get with the software? Is something like Post/Pre-scaling of the DPI on the X/Y axis like in povohats driver possible? I'm using the driver to compensate for pubg's weird vertical sensitivity as well as for games that have stupid sensitivity ranges that force me to use 100-200 dpi to get a low enough sensitivity, and I think it would be great to have everything available through the same software. It would also work pretty well if we could set the RMB to work as a "dpi clutch/sniper button" that changes the dpi scaling for games that have a locked ads sensitivity, I think I already suggested a "dpi clutch" in a facebook comment but I think it would make more sense to me to do it through interpolation/scaling as opposed to dpi reduction as steps of 100 dpi isn't quite precise enough imo.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> I came across the seller of the optical scroll encoder and noticed the picture indicated the wheel axle has 5 sides, every other wheel axle having six sides. will you be able to source an oem wheel compatible with it?


Not sure what you've found, the optical encoder I have is 6 sided, maybe theres an option for a 5 sided axle.



iBerggman said:


> Wait what, order in packs of 5? As in different shells or what?


It just means a discount for buying 5 Astrums at once.



iBerggman said:


> Also what features can we expect to get with the software? Is something like Post/Pre-scaling of the DPI on the X/Y axis like in povohats driver possible? I'm using the driver to compensate for pubg's weird vertical sensitivity as well as for games that have stupid sensitivity ranges that force me to use 100-200 dpi to get a low enough sensitivity, and I think it would be great to have everything available through the same software. It would also work pretty well if we could set the RMB to work as a "dpi clutch/sniper button" that changes the dpi scaling for games that have a locked ads sensitivity, I think I already suggested a "dpi clutch" in a facebook comment but I think it would make more sense to me to do it through interpolation/scaling as opposed to dpi reduction as steps of 100 dpi isn't quite precise enough imo.


The software is pretty standard at the moment. You can access all the 3360 options, rebind buttons, manage macros and profiles, change LED colours. It has a "sniper" button option. I'll see if I can do the interpolation  Btw, I looked into linear accel, and its very difficult to do, povohat's solution is the best really. I might look into adding it at a later date.


----------



## Nx87

Will all the parts needed for every possible configuration with the shells come bundled with the mouse, or are the additional shapes sold as bonus extras?
Anyway I'm already sold, can't wait to pre-order when possible.

On a sidenote I have a Venator on its way to me from Amazon, really impressed by your engagement with the community & the overall design ethic in producing mice that give competitive players the features they really need.


----------



## bst

Nx87 said:


> Will all the parts needed for every possible configuration with the shells come bundled with the mouse, or are the additional shapes sold as bonus extras?
> Anyway I'm already sold, can't wait to pre-order when possible.


You get everything (all parts) in the box. The box has molded foam which fits the parts perfectly, so they'll be well protected when not in use.



Nx87 said:


> On a sidenote I have a Venator on its way to me from Amazon, really impressed by your engagement with the community & the overall design ethic in producing mice that give competitive players the features they really need.


Thanks, I really appreciate you saying that


----------



## Maq

bst said:


> Btw, I looked into linear accel, and its very difficult to do, povohat's solution is the best really. I might look into adding it at a later date.


Wait are you saying there is a chance that you will implement Povohats Mouse Accel options in your mouse software? If yes, I‘m gonna buy 10000 astrums 😄


----------



## bst

Maq said:


> Wait are you saying there is a chance that you will implement Povohats Mouse Accel options in your mouse software? If yes, I‘m gonna buy 10000 astrums 😄


I'm looking into it, but it'll work the same way, if I just put in options for linear accel it doesn't work, it needs to know your in game sensitivity. But yeah, if theres time, then I'll add it. There probably will be time because while the tooling is being done, the software can carry on being updated.


----------



## Maq

That would be awesome!


----------



## senileoldman

An option to change the click latency, debounce, whatever, would be nice as well.

I've tried Povohat's driver and it had a ton of options; one that I really liked is the one that lets you reduce the mouse sensitivity without changing windows cursor speed. I tried it setting my mouse at 5k dpi and lowering the sensitivity and it felt super smooth.


----------



## bst

senileoldman said:


> An option to change the click latency, debounce, whatever, would be nice as well.


I'm not sure there will be much point, seeing as the optical switches don't need debouncing, I guess it depends if you want it for the side buttons?



senileoldman said:


> I've tried Povohat's driver and it had a ton of options; one that I really liked is the one that lets you reduce the mouse sensitivity without changing windows cursor speed. I tried it setting my mouse at 5k dpi and lowering the sensitivity and it felt super smooth.


Well I will see if I can get the interception version of povohats accel packaged with the Ninox software, so then it'll have exactly the same options


----------



## senileoldman

BST knows how to get into our wallets.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> Well I will see if I can get the interception version of povohats accel packaged with the Ninox software, so then it'll have exactly the same options


If you manage to make this happen, words won't express how happy I'll be. As someone who is very sensitive to misaligned sensor-to-wrist angles, I am practically dependent on Povohat's driver at this point. When I used to use a 1-3-1 finger grip most sensors were straight for me, but the added control I gained from switching to 1-2-2 has caused the majority of sensors to not align with my wrist correctly. I now use angle correction on a software level with Povohat's driver, and have been dreading the day where some admin doesn't let me install it at an event, because of main stage setup times being so short (or ignorance that the driver is being used to cheat).

Having software angle correction, like Povohat's driver, applied to the onboard memory would be more than enough for me... but at the same time I am curious if your adjustable sensor concept would allow for rotary adjustment, in addition to just the vertical change. Something like Fig 2. in the first image here: http://www.esreality.com/post/2410040/new-gaming-mice-vps-invention-and-more/


----------



## Maq

senileoldman said:


> BST knows how to get into our wallets.


Absolutely, this project almost sounds too good to be true! 🙂


----------



## bst

MattKelly said:


> If you manage to make this happen, words won't express how happy I'll be. As someone who is very sensitive to misaligned sensor-to-wrist angles, I am practically dependent on Povohat's driver at this point. When I used to use a 1-3-1 finger grip most sensors were straight for me, but the added control I gained from switching to 1-2-2 has caused the majority of sensors to not align with my wrist correctly. I now use angle correction on a software level with Povohat's driver, and have been dreading the day where some admin doesn't let me install it at an event, because of main stage setup times being so short (or ignorance that the driver is being used to cheat).
> 
> Having software angle correction, like Povohat's driver, applied to the onboard memory would be more than enough for me... but at the same time I am curious if your adjustable sensor concept would allow for rotary adjustment, in addition to just the vertical change. Something like Fig 2. in the first image here: http://www.esreality.com/post/2410040/new-gaming-mice-vps-invention-and-more/


I don't think it'll need the sensor angle option, its already built into the 3360 sensor, so it doesn't need software to work. You need software to set it, but then you can take it to another PC, or uninstall the software, and it'll still work (stored in the mouse's memory). Theres already a slider in the Astrum software where you can set -45 to +45 degree sensor angle. I attached a pic of most of the options on it at the moment.


----------



## PBaF

I was not ready for this feels trip.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> I don't think it'll need the sensor angle option, its already built into the 3360 sensor, so it doesn't need software to work. You need software to set it, but then you can take it to another PC, or uninstall the software, and it'll still work (stored in the mouse's memory). Theres already a slider in the Astrum software where you can set -45 to +45 degree sensor angle. I attached a pic of most of the options on it at the moment.


This is awesome to see - thank you, bst. I wish Logitech's software gave access to the 3366's angle option (still dependent on Povohat's driver while I'm stuck with the G403).

So, would there be any benefit to a change in sensor angle on the physical hardware level, versus the software implementation? I only ask because I know the Astrum's sensor may be adjustable vertically, so perhaps it could be rotated as well, but I guess there may be no need for it if the software adjustment is equal in quality?


----------



## gipetto

@bst maybe this is technically impossible but currently there is a scarcity of ps/2 mice with good sensors. lets suppose you added ps/2 support to the astrum with a passive adaptor. I don't know the exact figures but lets suppose ps/2 port is limited to no more than 1metres/second. In game you move the mouse at 3m/s. now, since you're going to roll povohats driver into the on board mouse software you could divide the sensor travel by 3, pass the data through the ps/2 bus and then use a standard os install of povohats driver to scale the m/s sensitivity up by 3.

or maybe you could have rs232 support instead with a data rate of 115,200baud.


----------



## bst

MattKelly said:


> So, would there be any benefit to a change in sensor angle on the physical hardware level, versus the software implementation? I only ask because I know the Astrum's sensor may be adjustable vertically, so perhaps it could be rotated as well, but I guess there may be no need for it if the software adjustment is equal in quality?


I'm pretty sure physical would be better by a tiny amount, but whether you'd notice the difference, I don't know... I guess not. The Astrum will never have a rotating sensor though, unless a modder comes up with a way, its just too complicated (and/or heavy - yet at the same time weak).



gipetto said:


> @bst maybe this is technically impossible but currently there is a scarcity of ps/2 mice with good sensors. lets suppose you added ps/2 support to the astrum with a passive adaptor. I don't know the exact figures but lets suppose ps/2 port is limited to no more than 1metres/second. In game you move the mouse at 3m/s. now, since you're going to roll povohats driver into the on board mouse software you could divide the sensor travel by 3, pass the data through the ps/2 bus and then use a standard os install of povohats driver to scale the m/s sensitivity up by 3.
> 
> or maybe you could have rs232 support instead with a data rate of 115,200baud.


What for? I mean why would anyone want to use ps/2 or rs232?


----------



## Avalar

PS/2 is supposed to be more responsive than USB, and some manufacturers make horribly laggy USB ports.


----------



## gipetto

bst said:


> What for? I mean why would anyone want to use ps/2 or rs232?


because they're interrupt based, so resistant to lag. myself and others have had trouble with intermittent mouse lag. there's an active thread here at the moment about a floaty mouse. when I open firefox on my pc the g502 cursor glitches for a second. Then there are the retro computer enthusiasts who don't have usb ports. My point is if you could add ps2 support in software and have a bigger market. i guess it doesn't matter but you have shown interest in unusual mods in the past so i thought i should run it by you.

edit here's the thread about the floaty mouse: 
http://www.overclock.net/forum/375-...sistent-floaty-loosing-speed-after-while.html


----------



## Aliandro1d

Do you think you'll ever have access to logitech tier wireless tech?


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

gipetto said:


> have a bigger market.


that bigger market, consisting of like maybe ten people.


----------



## gipetto

uaokkkkkkkk said:


> that bigger market, consisting of like maybe ten people.


maybe, but my point stands. also rs232 although harder to implement is at 115200 baud 11,520hz(10 bit bytes per second). I don't know how that compares to usb polling rate, perhaps much slower since i doubt we're talking about bytes and more likely packets.


----------



## zergrush

I usually lurk on these forums, but I had to log in to say this: stop with the idiot requests and just let bst make his mice. He knows what he is doing and I have seen some ridiculous requests on here like making the mouse compatible with ps/2. Is that a joke? Just stop and let the man make his mice.


----------



## Gauanqh6764

..


----------



## lainx

zergrush said:


> I usually lurk on these forums, but I had to log in to say this: stop with the idiot requests and just let bst make his mice. He knows what he is doing and I have seen some ridiculous requests on here like making the mouse compatible with ps/2. Is that a joke? Just stop and let the man make his mice.


Community: "Please manufacturers, listen to us! We have a ton of feedback and you should do this and that in the next revision and it'll be soo good!"
Manufacturer that communicates and listens to feedback: "We're all ears and happy to consider making changes upon your feedback. Let us know!"
Community: "Stop taking feedback just make the mouse already!!"

You just can't win, can you.


----------



## chort

lainx said:


> Community: "Please manufacturers, listen to us! We have a ton of feedback and you should do this and that in the next revision and it'll be soo good!"
> Manufacturer that communicates and listens to feedback: "We're all ears and happy to consider making changes upon your feedback. Let us know!"
> Community: "Stop taking feedback just make the mouse already!!"
> 
> You just can't win, can you.


there are some really good feedback, like the main shapes (wmo and aurora) that are liked by most of the community.
and then there are changes that are just neat picks of random people on the internet that won't really benefit the community/bst in the long run, like the ps2 compatibility, don't really think any professional fps players actually use it for the lower latency.


----------



## gipetto

chort said:


> there are some really good feedback, like the main shapes (wmo and aurora) that are liked by most of the community.
> and then there are changes that are just neat picks of random people on the internet that won't really benefit the community/bst in the long run, like the ps2 compatibility, don't really think any professional fps players actually use it for the lower latency.


Why would you think a minor modification won't benefit bst? I'd hazard a guess that non professional players vastly outnumber the professional ones. The non professionals have to make compromises with low cost buggy hardware. Adding 50 lines of ps/2 code to the microcontroller wouldn't affect the professionals in any negative way, it could even help them by increasing build quality through mass production.


----------



## chort

gipetto said:


> Why would you think a minor modification won't benefit bst? I'd hazard a guess that non professional players vastly outnumber the professional ones. The non professionals have to make compromises with low cost buggy hardware. Adding 50 lines of ps/2 code to the microcontroller wouldn't affect the professionals in any negative way, it could even help them by increasing build quality through mass production.


if it's just 50 lines of code there is no reason for him to focus on it now... getting the mouse to function with all the current features planned will make it the best mouse on the market if everything goes as planned.
the minor features are just not as important.


----------



## PBaF

Please keep the adjustable sensor position. I really prefer mice with a more forward sensor. Most the ones out now that have a forward sensor have issues (shape and quality) that makes them not worth using. 

How would the Astrum work for someone who likes the Roccat Kone Pure shape?


----------



## Aliandro1d

too bad we don't have decent emotes any more other wise i'd give this thread the o'l;
ONE MORE PS2 REQUEST AND I SHOOT (insert stickman with gun blazing) FeelsBadMan.
BST isn't stupid he knows what to ignore and maybe *cough* who *cough*.
Hopefully he knows who to send a beta copy to too T_T/


----------



## bst

Not going to ignore it, but ideally I would use the Astrum FW for quite a long time, so there is plenty of time to add it, and so it would be better to do it when everything is working well, and theres time to play around with things. At the moment I think unless its something that will benefit a lot of people, I can't really do it. Its got to be worth the complication it could potentially add.

Trying to do too much is exactly why the Aurora failed. If I had kept that mouse simple, like 3 DPIs, 1000hz, no software, it would have been out way earlier (potentially over a year), and had less problems, and I could have eventually improved on it. But instead the mouse sat around doing nothing but being worked on, while it could have been selling in a more simplified form.

I'm already in danger of entering perfectionist territory with this mouse, so I have to be careful now. In my mind, we've got everything it needs already, anything else is a luxury that can be done later


----------



## ryan92084

Aliandro1d said:


> too bad we don't have decent emotes any more other wise i'd give this thread the o'l;
> ONE MORE PS2 REQUEST AND I SHOOT (insert stickman with gun blazing) FeelsBadMan.
> BST isn't stupid he knows what to ignore and maybe *cough* who *cough*.
> Hopefully he knows who to send a beta copy to too T_T/


? :gunner2: :gunner: still using the basic editor?


----------



## nyshak

*Yup*



bst said:


> Not going to ignore it, but ideally I would use the Astrum FW for quite a long time, so there is plenty of time to add it, and so it would be better to do it when everything is working well, and theres time to play around with things. At the moment I think unless its something that will benefit a lot of people, I can't really do it. Its got to be worth the complication it could potentially add.
> 
> Trying to do too much is exactly why the Aurora failed. If I had kept that mouse simple, like 3 DPIs, 1000hz, no software, it would have been out way earlier (potentially over a year), and had less problems, and I could have eventually improved on it. But instead the mouse sat around doing nothing but being worked on, while it could have been selling in a more simplified form.
> 
> I'm already in danger of entering perfectionist territory with this mouse, so I have to be careful now. In my mind, we've got everything it needs already, anything else is a luxury that can be done later


All but a full paracord mod out of the box. But then, the cable is supposed to be almost as good right? Got that from somewhere...

Anyways, get it done now


----------



## bst

nyshak said:


> All but a full paracord mod out of the box. But then, the cable is supposed to be almost as good right? Got that from somewhere...
> 
> Anyways, get it done now


Oh yeah, the cord. I got samples of them on Friday. Its more complicated than I thought it would be (usually is ).

One was unshielded and almost like a paracord, but the wires inside are PVC, and I think the paracord uses silicone wires, so its not quite as flexible as it should be. Actually it isn't much more flexible than the Venator black cable. Factory grumbled a bit about changing to silicone wires, saying they're difficult to get, but they said they'd try and see what they can do.

That however is moot if that cable won't pass FCC. I will try but I don't think the magnet on the end is going to do much  Maybe I can include one in the box, the mouse itself will probably have to come with a shielded cable attached. I'm not sure theres much point if I can't get silicone wires though, because it won't be as flexible as a paracord. I mean is there any point in including it in the box if people will just buy a paracord anyway?

The other option was to put the shield in, you know, normally braided cords have a rubber sleeve between the braid and the shield, so I wanted to get rid of the rubber sleeve. Factory said ok (a while back), but the sample I got had a rubber sleeve. They then said, "you need the rubber sleeve if you have a shield, or it'll come loose". So, can't do that, wish they'd have told me sooner 

So for the shielded cable, I want to try it without the braid (just the rubber sleeve), and silicone wires, because they seem to make a fair bit of difference. How much difference... I have to find out. Although, I did try the above idea (bought some paracord and made a cable without the rubber sleeve, but with a shield) and there wasn't a huge amount of difference between that and the unshielded cable, so it does seem like the wires themselves are causing most of the stiffness, not the shield. So hopefully the rubber cable with silicone wires will be good.

Assuming I can use the silicone wires, I'll put both in for testing, if the unshielded one passes, then it'll be just like a paracord, if not, I'll have to use the rubber shielded one, but it'll still be very flexible.


----------



## Ephant

I know it's early but... 

... you said something about "more button overhang" on the smaller version. What's important to me is a low front like on the Kinzu or FK2:


















Most mice with botton overhang have a relatively high front in comparison, like the Abyssus v2 or Venator:


----------



## lurkerguy

bst said:


> That however is moot if that cable won't pass FCC. I will try but I don't think the magnet on the end is going to do much  Maybe I can include one in the box, the mouse itself will probably have to come with a shielded cable attached. I'm not sure theres much point if I can't get silicone wires though, because it won't be as flexible as a paracord. I mean is there any point in including it in the box if people will just buy a paracord anyway?


Did I understand correctly that you can put the unshielded paracord, even in case it doesn't pass the standards, in the box if the actual mouse comes with another cable installed out of the box? If so I think people would appreciate it if it turns out feeling better than the stock cable. I don't think _that_ many people buy CeeSA's cords, especially outside of this forum.


----------



## MattKelly

Ephant said:


> I know it's early but...
> 
> ... you said something about "more button overhang" on the smaller version. What's important to me is a low front like on the Kinzu or FK2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most mice with botton overhang have a relatively high front in comparison, like the Abyssus v2 or Venator:


...but doing this removes overall surface area at the sides of the mouse, resulting in less room for the ring and pinky fingers. It's very difficult to fit both the ring and pinky fingers on the side of the Kinzu, without having to curl them to give separate positions to each. I feel like one of the reasons the WMO was so loved was because it had 1.) flat, but 2.) somewhat tall sides. There was plenty of room for both the ring and pinky fingers (although, the buttons came halfway down the sides which wasn't ideal, but the area was still somewhat usable).

EDIT: Added pictures to show what I'm talking about. On the WMO there is plenty of space for both my ring and pinky fingers (straight, curled, whatever one might prefer). Unlike the WMO however, there isn't enough room on the Kinzu for both my ring and pinky fingers. So from that position, the only option would be to go for a 1-3-1 finger grip, with only the pinky on the side... or to curl the fingers. Curling the fingers may not seem too bad at first glance, but this means that the fingers can't extend back out if they needed to (note that this isn't the same as a shape that suits both styles - this is restricting in that if I wanted to move my fingers straighter, I just couldn't - there's nowhere to go from here) and this type of restriction makes aiming adjustments with the fingers more limited. I think that finally have a mouse with flat sides and ample space is what a lot of people are looking for. I've used over 60 mice in the past half a year or so, and the number of options out there that fulfill such simple requirements... it's close to none (which is actually kind of crazy when you think about it).


----------



## Aliandro1d

ryan92084 said:


> ? :gunner2: :gunner: still using the basic editor?


my eyes have been opened


----------



## ewiggle

Hopefully you don't put too much energy into the cable thing. Considering the venator has an even more flexible cable than the well respected zowie line, unless you're recreating the new braided Razer cables that are very flexible, might be beneficial to drop the cable pursuit altogether as it seems you're definitely in perfectionist territory on that part. Maybe better to put energy into how the cable is shipped - most prefer wrapped instead of folded. 

There's a lot going on in this astrum mouse that I'm looking forward to trying out during the Kickstarter but I would hate for things to get overdone to the point of creating delays for such tiny potential improvements.

/2cents


----------



## bst

I probably am in perfectionist territory with the cable, but I don't think it matters as much. Theres time to try the silicone wires, nothing is waiting on the cable, and its an easy thing to just stop at any point and go with the Venator cable.


----------



## nyshak

ewiggle said:


> Hopefully you don't put too much energy into the cable thing. Considering the venator has an even more flexible cable than the well respected zowie line, unless you're recreating the new braided Razer cables that are very flexible, might be beneficial to drop the cable pursuit altogether as it seems you're definitely in perfectionist territory on that part. Maybe better to put energy into how the cable is shipped - most prefer wrapped instead of folded.
> 
> There's a lot going on in this astrum mouse that I'm looking forward to trying out during the Kickstarter but I would hate for things to get overdone to the point of creating delays for such tiny potential improvements.
> 
> /2cents


Too me a paracord mod isn't a tiny adjustment. It has become a necessity for all my mice. Have you tried it once? From my experience the difference in feel is quite big. Feels like a wireless mouse. Especially when we are talking a mouse as light as the Astrum (alpha shape) or a finalmouse ultralight. A stiff cable can ruin the hole thing. Also, not everyone can use a mouse bungee to "fix" the cable, due to lower sens etc.

If a paracord could be put in the box as an extra, I'd be happy to pay for it.


----------



## detto87

MattKelly said:


> ...but doing this removes overall surface area at the sides of the mouse, resulting in less room for the ring and pinky fingers. It's very difficult to fit both the ring and pinky fingers on the side of the Kinzu, without having to curl them to give separate positions to each. I feel like one of the reasons the WMO was so loved was because it had 1.) flat, but 2.) somewhat tall sides. There was plenty of room for both the ring and pinky fingers (although, the buttons came halfway down the sides which wasn't ideal, but the area was still somewhat usable).
> 
> EDIT: Added pictures to show what I'm talking about. On the WMO there is plenty of space for both my ring and pinky fingers (straight, curled, whatever one might prefer). Unlike the WMO however, there isn't enough room on the Kinzu for both my ring and pinky fingers. So from that position, the only option would be to go for a 1-3-1 finger grip, with only the pinky on the side... or to curl the fingers. Curling the fingers may not seem too bad at first glance, but this means that the fingers can't extend back out if they needed to (note that this isn't the same as a shape that suits both styles - this is restricting in that if I wanted to move my fingers straighter, I just couldn't - there's nowhere to go from here) and this type of restriction makes aiming adjustments with the fingers more limited. I think that finally have a mouse with flat sides and ample space is what a lot of people are looking for. I've used over 60 mice in the past half a year or so, and the number of options out there that fulfill such simple requirements... it's close to none (which is actually kind of crazy when you think about it).


I know exactly what you mean. The FK1 to me is the only mouse I had so far in ambidextrous territory that fulfilled those two points. And the WMO. I have to give the FK1 a try again.


----------



## Menthalion

I still don't get why a mouse couldn't have a cable like the logitech G430\G230 headset had.

That cable was like silk, the thinnest and most supple cable I ever saw, almost rivalling a paracord.

It also survived 5 years, while most cables on my headsets die within 2 from me tripping over them.

But that one had to pass FCC as well, hadn't it ? And with the mic it should be at least 3 cores. Is the current that much difference ?

A 32 Ohm headset should be something like 2.5 V, right ? That's should not be that different from USB.


----------



## MattKelly

detto87 said:


> I know exactly what you mean. The FK1 to me is the only mouse I had so far in ambidextrous territory that fulfilled those two points. And the WMO. I have to give the FK1 a try again.


I used an FK as my main for a long time (back when I used a 1-3-1 finger grip, though). I just find that the indentation towards the center of the mouse makes things awkward for my pinky (in a 1-2-2 grip). I wish that part of the mouse came out more and created a straighter line, like the WMO, so that my ring and pinky fingers could rest comfortably. Instead it feels like I have to pinch my pinky inwards to make contact with the mouse, which puts it awkwardly underneath the ring finger. Man, I seriously don't understand why there are so few mice with flat _and_ straight sides. At this point I'm just left praying for a small version of the Astrum Alpha.


----------



## Maq

Any news? @bst


----------



## gipetto

@bst could you make a provision for a hardware jump to bootloader in the astrum? two copper pads on the pcb would do, without adding cost, just short them with a screwdriver. It would be a pita if a bad firmware update made it impossible to flash.


----------



## lainx

bst said:


> I probably am in perfectionist territory with the cable, but I don't think it matters as much. Theres time to try the silicone wires, nothing is waiting on the cable, and its an easy thing to just stop at any point and go with the Venator cable.


Not sure if it's the same type of wires but when i started making my own paracord cables i dabbled in different materials. I also thought silicone would be the best but it turned out that having seperate cables in silicone caused a lot more friction which not only were super hard getting through the paracord but resulted in a stiffer cable than just regular pvc. I think there's an old discussion in one of the Ceesa threads were other users tried out PTFE, silicone and what not but pvc seemed to work best.
But again, i'm not sure if this is the same type you're going to use.
Looking forward to the kickstarter!


----------



## ewiggle

nyshak said:


> Too me a paracord mod isn't a tiny adjustment. It has become a necessity for all my mice. Have you tried it once? From my experience the difference in feel is quite big. Feels like a wireless mouse. Especially when we are talking a mouse as light as the Astrum (alpha shape) or a finalmouse ultralight. A stiff cable can ruin the hole thing. Also, not everyone can use a mouse bungee to "fix" the cable, due to lower sens etc.
> 
> If a paracord could be put in the box as an extra, I'd be happy to pay for it.


Thing is, with paracords, you have new problems to deal with like the cable slipping underneath your mouse when you're doing quick movements. And that issue can happen with and without a bungee. (Basically, there's a sweet spot to the whole cable regidity thing, imo)Simply being aware of this fact can make you more timid with your mouse where, if you had a wireless mouse, it just feels free since you don't worry about that issue. On the other hand, wireless has their own problems too like running out of battery life lol.

These new mice with the charging pads are onto something. One day when I can use my own large pad with it then they'll be even better, might even get one myself.

Anyways, yeah I don't think it's a necessity. I think it's just a neat thing to have the option of using. Yes it's way better than a stiff cable but is it way better than a zowie cable? I wouldn't paracord my mouse if it had a cable that's as stiff as the zowie mice or venator. And so that's why I don't think it's a necessity.


----------



## nyshak

The venator cable felt to stiff for me, but I can see the problem with a paracord getting under the mouse or in the way, but only for very low sense setups.


----------



## ewiggle

nyshak said:


> The venator cable felt to stiff for me, but I can see the problem with a paracord getting under the mouse or in the way, but only for very low sense setups.


More specifically, consider the people with large mouse pads. You pull that mouse to the bottom and then try swiping it to the top without cable just laying in your way.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Personally I like more stiff but light cables. I really dislike the Venator's cable as I find it way too soft and flexible and the wires and shield would slide under the plastic "sheath". 
But I also don't like Zowie's cable as it refused to straighten and would curl up on the mouse/my hand.

My favorite cables are on the G203 and the Revel.
I've made my own cables using PET expandable braided sleeving it's really light but still solid.


----------



## Klopfer

the best cables I've ever used ( not on a mouse ) are the 99.99% oxygen-free cables which AKG is using ,and cables like this would also perform superb as a micecable in my opinion ...


----------



## RaleighStClair

ewiggle said:


> [...]with paracords, you have new problems to deal with like the cable slipping underneath your mouse when you're doing quick movements[...]


Exactly. And it is why myself, and most of the people I know that have used paracords, have moved away from them. I very much prefer the Zowie cables to paracord. IMO paracord is overrated as hell, but YMMV and all that.


----------



## Klopfer

I never had this problem with ceeSA's paracord ... 
<<< 60cm/360 ....


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

RaleighStClair said:


> Exactly. And it is why myself, and most of the people I know that have used paracords, have moved away from them. I very much prefer the Zowie cables to paracord. IMO paracord is overrated as hell, but YMMV and all that.


PET expandable braided sleeving > Paracord.


----------



## gipetto

@bst I know you said the 3 pin microswitch is not compatible with the LK pinout but can the same be said for the 2 pin momentary?


----------



## charlieputh

any updates?


----------



## ov3rmind

are you going to use 90m switch? I heard that 90m switch has double click issue after using about 6 months.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> @bst could you make a provision for a hardware jump to bootloader in the astrum? two copper pads on the pcb would do, without adding cost, just short them with a screwdriver. It would be a pita if a bad firmware update made it impossible to flash.


At the moment it has a small microswitch, which may be removed in production, but the pads would still be there, so yes, with or without the switch there will be a way to do it.



lainx said:


> Not sure if it's the same type of wires but when i started making my own paracord cables i dabbled in different materials. I also thought silicone would be the best but it turned out that having seperate cables in silicone caused a lot more friction which not only were super hard getting through the paracord but resulted in a stiffer cable than just regular pvc. I think there's an old discussion in one of the Ceesa threads were other users tried out PTFE, silicone and what not but pvc seemed to work best.
> But again, i'm not sure if this is the same type you're going to use.
> Looking forward to the kickstarter!


I've been looking at everything I can with the cable. I found that there is a way to filter out EMI with some components on the PCB, like this:
https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Wurth Electronics PDFs/829999STICK.pdf
They provide the stick so you can test how it might change performance before integrating it into the PCB.

But I still don't know if this would negate the need for a shield. Every single EMI design guidelines I have seen say "you need a shield for high speed USB". It costs about $750 to test, so its not the easiest thing to keep trying out. 

I have pretty much exhausted all options for the cable materials, unless I find my own supplier. But we're not talking huge differences, so its probably not worth it. I think the unshielded cable is flexible enough 

Its annoying because I would like as many things to be decided as possible, before starting a crowd fund. Right now all I can say is, "the cable might be really flexible, but then it might not" 



gipetto said:


> @bst I know you said the 3 pin microswitch is not compatible with the LK pinout but can the same be said for the 2 pin momentary?


Not sure, would have to look at the datasheets. But I think probably not, because even if it fits, the contact point of the actual plunger might not line up with the button.



ov3rmind said:


> are you going to use 90m switch? I heard that 90m switch has double click issue after using about 6 months.


Where did you hear that?


I'm sorry there isn't a lot of news, things are progressing nicely, but at the moment its taking longer to put the crowdfunding page together than I hoped. I've written all the text, but videos and images are taking time. There isn't much longer to go though, its kind of like the calm before the storm right now


----------



## gipetto

Just to check, are you using a shell button with a square plunger like on pic right rather than the short lived thin plunger on pic left? Also would it be possible to double the plunger area to actuate an adjacent hardware debounced microswitch or momentary switch if the optical failed?


----------



## bst

Its like the one on the right.

All you'd have to do, if you wanted to use mechanical switches, is just make a hole for the 3rd pin in the pcb with a small drill. Then solder in the other 2 pins. On the optical switches those two pins are just holders anyway. So then you can just connect the switches up, with wires, to the ground and signal cables coming from the MCU PCB. I'll make an optional fw for it so they'll work


----------



## gipetto

that's much appreciated for the firmware. I wouldn't like to start drilling for a third hole as I have destroyed delicate pcbs in the past. If I can make do with a 2 pin switch then that's good enough for me.

>>On the optical switches those two pins are just holders anyway.
edit: if so, then why not route the traces to those two pins to save me wiring it up if its not going to interfere with the optical switch?


----------



## gipetto

@bst could you add this code to disable the scroll wheel while middle click is held? I just did so on my own and it makes an awful difference to a touchy wheel. I had a version of the famous zowie scroll wheel bug.

if (btn_dbncd & (1<<2)) {
_whl = 0;
}


----------



## qsxcv

@bst, this cable was quite nice:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00446/T1311-5-ND/5819482

there's also a pvc version. i forgot which one i preferred... probably the tpu one since i don't like pvc in general

not sure if the shielding is sufficient for usb


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> that's much appreciated for the firmware. I wouldn't like to start drilling for a third hole as I have destroyed delicate pcbs in the past. If I can make do with a 2 pin switch then that's good enough for me.
> 
> >>On the optical switches those two pins are just holders anyway.
> edit: if so, then why not route the traces to those two pins to save me wiring it up if its not going to interfere with the optical switch?


Yeah, I could do that, at least, I can try. Depends how much room there is, and I have to double check the optical switch to be 100% sure it won't be affected. But if its all clear then I'll do it.



gipetto said:


> @bst could you add this code to disable the scroll wheel while middle click is held? I just did so on my own and it makes an awful difference to a touchy wheel. I had a version of the famous zowie scroll wheel bug.
> 
> if (btn_dbncd & (1<<2)) {
> _whl = 0;
> }


Yeah, don't see why not. 



qsxcv said:


> @bst, this cable was quite nice:
> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00446/T1311-5-ND/5819482
> 
> there's also a pvc version. i forgot which one i preferred... probably the tpu one since i don't like pvc in general
> 
> not sure if the shielding is sufficient for usb


Thanks, I'll try them out.

The spiral shielding isn't the best, but I am putting the EMI filter on the PCB, its only 4 small components, and should mean I can use that kind of shield. Maybe even no shield at all, if I'm lucky (but probably not  )


----------



## chort

bst said:


> Yeah, I could do that, at least, I can try. Depends how much room there is, and I have to double check the optical switch to be 100% sure it won't be affected. But if its all clear then I'll do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, don't see why not.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I'll try them out.
> 
> The spiral shielding isn't the best, but I am putting the EMI filter on the PCB, its only 4 small components, and should mean I can use that kind of shield. Maybe even no shield at all, if I'm lucky (but probably not  )


news on the kickstarter?


----------



## gipetto

@bst is there a way to ignore errant clicks in the first 100ms or so after the mouse is slammed down? Ideally the left, right, middle clicks and wheel would be disabled. timer0 could do as it loops every 125ms, so a check if the lift off detection had gone low in that loop might do.


----------



## bst

chort said:


> news on the kickstarter?


I'm still preparing the page, I promise as soon as I know the launch date I'll post it on the newsletter.

I think on Tuesday I'll have some news, it won't be the launch date, but some preview pics of the colours available. There isn't much to talk about anymore really. I admit I did slightly underestimate how long it'd take to set up the page (not just the page but all the planning that goes into the campaign and waiting on confirmation of things, and for work to be finished by other people, like 3d animations (which are needed since quite a few people were confused about the mouse when I first showed it)). It is getting there though, and the good thing is that after thats done, there isn't much to do, it'll just be:

- Finishing off software & firmware, getting the production PCB prototyped. Both not too difficult, because other people are doing them, so I just need to guide them and test it. This is already well underway.
- Assuming its a success, having the tooling made at the factory, which mostly amounts to me paying them for it and waiting, then testing the shell.
- EMI certifications (again, nothing much for me to do but pay for it and cross my fingers the unshielded cable passes )
- Manufacturing (same again, I just have to monitor it and get legal agreements in place)
- Posting (done by a company called black box, factory just sends them all there and they distribute it around the world. However its a fair bit of work because I have to get and check everyone's address)

Thats it really, pretty straight forward now. I've tried to give myself as much free time as possible during the crowd fund, because it allows me to have time to communicate with backers and focus on marketing, and you never know what else is going to come up and eat away the time.



gipetto said:


> @bst is there a way to ignore errant clicks in the first 100ms or so after the mouse is slammed down? Ideally the left, right, middle clicks and wheel would be disabled. timer0 could do as it loops every 125ms, so a check if the lift off detection had gone low in that loop might do.


Yeah thats a good idea, I'll try it, but I might not bother with it if it doesn't look like it needs it (I'll test the injection molded mice and see how they do, since the 3D printed ones behave slightly differently due to being different kind of plastic).


----------



## gipetto

@bst will the 4 pin optical scroll encoder pinout be pin compatible with a standard 3 pin encoder? It could be an issue if the optical type has a high failure rate.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> @bst will the 4 pin optical scroll encoder pinout be pin compatible with a standard 3 pin encoder? It could be an issue if the optical type has a high failure rate.


No, not compatible. Although the base PCB is very simple, I can make the gerber files available so you can order one with pins for mechanical components, then you could solder in whatever you like


----------



## ov3rmind

@bst I heard that 90m switch has double click problem. There are too many posts so I couldn't read all of them so I have a question of using 90m switch to astrum.


----------



## gipetto

http://www.overclock.net/forum/375-...x-astrum-swapable-shells-50.html#post26868417
@ov3rmind do you mean this 90m optical switch in the link or are you thinking of a different 90m microswitch? The optical switch bst has committed to using should not give switch bounce but it could be possible.


----------



## ov3rmind

gipetto said:


> http://www.overclock.net/forum/375-...x-astrum-swapable-shells-50.html#post26868417
> @ov3rmind do you mean this 90m optical switch in the link or are you thinking of a different 90m microswitch? The optical switch bst has committed to using should not give switch bounce but it could be possible.


I mean optical one. There is a mouse using same switch and someone told me doubleclick problem just happened after using 6months.


----------



## gipetto

Maybe they were confusing that model of mouse with another, a4tech only uses the optical switch in a few models. If you could contact that person and have the story from the horses mouth or get a look at the problem something could be done.


----------



## chort

it was mentioned that the double click issue is an implementation problem and it shouldn't happen on the astrum and if it will then he will probably not use it.


----------



## gipetto

It could be easily taken care of with a firmware update for software debouncing so i'm not concerned. Of course I'd prefer a hardware debounced microswitch as it's proven and familiar technology but bst said he wanted to go all optical or all mechanical, so maybe he's taking advantage of a discount by buying the optical switch and encoder together.
@chort trouble is we won't know there's a problem with the switch when we buy the astrum, only time will tell.


----------



## bst

I wonder if it was just one switch, or both?

One switch isn't really statistically significant, I mean considering how many thousands of those switches must exist out there, one report of double clicking isn't too worrying, it could simply be faulty, or some other component faulty on the PCB.


----------



## James N

I tried my WMO again and god damn, this is the best shape ever. Please let there be a shell for the Astrum that is like the wmo but with buttons on the left.


----------



## chort

James N said:


> I tried my WMO again and god damn, this is the best shape ever. Please let there be a shell for the Astrum that is like the wmo but with buttons on the left.


there will be and it's the beta IX


----------



## Ephant

chort said:


> there will be and it's the beta IX


But isn't it 4mm taller?


----------



## chort

Ephant said:


> But isn't it 4mm taller?


the 1.1a is 39 mm tall so no it's around the same size from what I know


----------



## Ephant

chort said:


> the 1.1a is 39 mm tall so no it's around the same size from what I know


Huh, ok. I saw 36mm somewhere but that's bull**** I guess.


----------



## gipetto

@bst I'd appreciate it if the ninox software was compatible with wine under linux.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> @bst I'd appreciate it if the ninox software was compatible with wine under linux.


The software is cross platform, Linux / Windows / Mac.


----------



## thrillhaus

gipetto said:


> @bst is there a way to ignore errant clicks in the first 100ms or so after the mouse is slammed down? Ideally the left, right, middle clicks and wheel would be disabled. timer0 could do as it loops every 125ms, so a check if the lift off detection had gone low in that loop might do.





bst said:


> Yeah thats a good idea, I'll try it, but I might not bother with it if it doesn't look like it needs it (I'll test the injection molded mice and see how they do, since the 3D printed ones behave slightly differently due to being different kind of plastic).


Logitech handles this by increasing debounce by ~3ms when the mouse is lifted off the surface.

Having button input disabled for 100ms at a time is a big no no.


----------



## gipetto

thrillhaus said:


> Logitech handles this by increasing debounce by ~3ms when the mouse is lifted off the surface.


I understand most of the mainstream manufacturers debounce the start keypress as well as the end, whereas qsxcv's code only debounces the end to favour decreased latency. therefore logitech's increased debounce fix would not be compatible.


----------



## thrillhaus

gipetto said:


> I understand most of the mainstream manufacturers debounce the start keypress as well as the end, whereas qsxcv's code only debounces the end to favour decreased latency. therefore logitech's increased debounce fix would not be compatible.


Wouldn't it be possible to debounce start-side on lift off only?


----------



## gipetto

yes, the debouncing code is quite esoteric though and I don't want to introduce bugs. It would be functionally equivalent to just ignoring short duration clicks. would you take a look at it yourself and see about how to implement lift off detection?


----------



## gipetto

@bst any thoughts on the coil whine issue affecting the ec1b and some steelseries rival models? from what i've read adding emi supression inductors can increase the issue.


----------



## Excinase

Any news?


----------



## aCz-

Excinase said:


> Any news?


I guess we would be waiting month or even more before kickstarter will start. I'm getting a bit depressed. Wanned to get new mice before summer otherwise there are way to much ways to spend money in summer.


----------



## Avalar

aCz- said:


> I guess we would be waiting month or even more before kickstarter will start. I'm getting a bit depressed. Wanned to get new mice before summer otherwise there are way to much ways to spend money in summer.


Wanted to get mine before college lol. Rip money.


----------



## gazzia

You have 10x G303? Really? Which of youre mousepads is the fastest one? thx


----------



## Avalar

gazzia said:


> You have 10x G303? Really? Which of youre mousepads is the fastest one? thx


Func F30R


----------



## gazzia

Avalar said:


> Func F30R


and which is the fastest softpad?


----------



## chort

pretty sure you can dm people if you want to ask those questions, these thread is not really the place considering a lot of people are still waiting for updates on this mouse.


----------



## Elrick

chort said:


> pretty sure you can dm people if you want to ask those questions, these thread is not really the place considering a lot of people are still waiting for updates on this mouse.


Kind of shows the desperation that Dream Machines had put these poor unfortunates through, with their horrid release of their DM3 series.

At least BST listens to his customers instead of ignoring them like what DM has always done. Huge difference with both companies is that Ninox seems more honest and decent compared to DM on every level.


----------



## charlieputh

@bst is it possible for the mouse cable to be micro usb so that its easy to switch to other cables like paracord my friend has the rival 600 and it had that feature really makes it easy but not really an issue if not possible thanks!


----------



## charlieputh

@bstno updates for a week?


----------



## James N

charlieputh said:


> @bstno updates for a week?


Silence before the storm. When he goes quiet , it is usually a good sign. Probably busy getting the Kickstarter and the Prototypes ready.


----------



## vanir1337

charlieputh said:


> @bst is it possible for the mouse cable to be micro usb so that its easy to switch to other cables like paracord my friend has the rival 600 and it had that feature really makes it easy but not really an issue if not possible thanks!


More sockets, more weight, more things that can go wrong. Just no.


----------



## Nx87

charlieputh said:


> @bst is it possible for the mouse cable to be micro usb so that its easy to switch to other cables like paracord my friend has the rival 600 and it had that feature really makes it easy but not really an issue if not possible thanks!


The mouse will be made in a way that it'll be easy to take apart any way.
Don't want to overcomplicate things by having a usb jack on the front that'd be terrible to play with imo, not to mention extra weight.


----------



## bst

Yeah, not going to do the removable cable, I like the idea of it, but its not that easy to do it well. I don't how much weight it would add either. The Astrum cable is really easy to remove anyway. Not to mention it'll be tested for two cables, one of them (if it passes) is almost as flexible as a paracord, actually I think it might be a bit better in the real world, because I think the paracords can actually be too flexible for their own good.

As for updates/news, its almost ready to go, I'm just waiting on the factory to finish painting some Venator covers with the paints that will be used on the Astrum. They've done some already and they look nice IMO. I just wanted to show the actual paint in a photo rather than a representation that won't be realistic. I've posted a video of 3 of the colours on the facebook page for those who want to see, and I'll post the remaining 5 colours as soon as I get them.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Yeah, not going to do the removable cable, I like the idea of it, but its not that easy to do it well. I don't how much weight it would add either. The Astrum cable is really easy to remove anyway. Not to mention it'll be tested for two cables, one of them (if it passes) is almost as flexible as a paracord, actually I think it might be a bit better in the real world, because I think the paracords can actually be too flexible for their own good.
> 
> As for updates/news, its almost ready to go, I'm just waiting on the factory to finish painting some Venator covers with the paints that will be used on the Astrum. They've done some already and they look nice IMO. I just wanted to show the actual paint in a photo rather than a representation that won't be realistic. I've posted a video of 3 of the colours on the facebook page for those who want to see, and I'll post the remaining 5 colours as soon as I get them.


Colors look amazing!

Just disappointed that I'm gonna be a broke college student when the Astrum finally drops... ;C


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> The spiral shielding isn't the best, but I am putting the EMI filter on the PCB, its only 4 small components, and should mean I can use that kind of shield. Maybe even no shield at all, if I'm lucky (but probably not  )


iirc:

zowie cables and razer da cables are spiral shielded.
logitech's heavy cables (e.g. g pro) is weaved (not the braiding, i mean the shield inside)
logitech's light cables (e.g. g203/102) i have no idea
g100s cable was foil and stiff...

imo spiral is the way to go if it provides sufficient shielding




gipetto said:


> @bst is there a way to ignore errant clicks in the first 100ms or so after the mouse is slammed down? Ideally the left, right, middle clicks and wheel would be disabled. timer0 could do as it loops every 125ms, so a check if the lift off detection had gone low in that loop might do.


bad idea if you need to click right after landing a swipe...
this issue is completely avoided with properly designed shells:
1. button (the plastic resting on the switch) is not too heavy
2. button is not loose (so not like wmo)
3. switch is not pre-tensioned too much


----------



## ewiggle

bst said:


> As for updates/news, its almost ready to go


My body is ready.


----------



## gipetto

@bst if you are using qsxcv' code then there is no sensor sleep mode. Do you see that impacting mouse longevity down the line?


----------



## bst

Agree with you on both points qsxcv 



gipetto said:


> @bst if you are using qsxcv' code then there is no sensor sleep mode. Do you see that impacting mouse longevity down the line?


I don't think so. The power save feature is mostly for laptops and wireless mice, and general energy efficiency on a large scale, not to increase the longevity, afaik. Of course thats not to say it doesn't have some effect, but I don't think it'll be anything significant, if it were then I would imagine it'd say in the datasheet. BTW the Venator also has the power save turned off, so thats the canary down the mine 

It isn't a difficult option to put in the software though, so maybe I'll just leave it up to the user.


----------



## Aliandro1d

bst said:


> Agree with you on both points qsxcv
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so. The power save feature is mostly for laptops and wireless mice, and general energy efficiency on a large scale, not to increase the longevity, afaik. Of course thats not to say it doesn't have some effect, but I don't think it'll be anything significant, if it were then I would imagine it'd say in the datasheet. BTW the Venator also has the power save turned off, so thats the canary down the mine
> 
> It isn't a difficult option to put in the software though, so maybe I'll just leave it up to the user.


Do so 100%, it's silly not to give ppl these options if the sensor has it as a built in option. I dn't turn on angle snapping ever etc. but i appreciate when companies give all those options in the software because the sensor is capable


----------



## gipetto

@bst I sometimes invert the y axis for the few fps games that lack support. If you had the same code for the x axis it could be of use to dyslexics, they tend to turn their mouse upside down and move the pad over it.
if (inverty == 0x00){
y.all += _y.all;
}
else{
y.all -= _y.all;
}

Also what newtons will the custom optical microswitches actuate at?

https://hardforum.com/threads/does-...s-you-an-option-to-invert-its-y-axis.1870736/


----------



## MattKelly

@bst I was going to discuss this via DM, but I figured others in this thread might appreciate chiming in, as I've seen it briefly mentioned a few times already. I want to take a closer look at the overall dimensions of the Astrum, primarily focusing on the length and overhang measurements.

Let's start with the button overhang vs. no overhang discussion. I do agree with bst that, regarding the feel of a mouse's size, overhang doesn't have as large of an impact as many people might think. The fingers naturally have some discrepancy in their respective lengths. Assuming a 1-2-2 finger grip, we would be looking at the difference between the ring finger's position on the right side of the mouse, and the middle finger's position on top of the mouse. I've competed with a 1-3-1 finger grip in the past, so for those who currently use that style of grip, I imagine you're already aware that this discrepancy is a bit larger for you, as the pinky is significantly shorter than the ring finger. Getting back to the 1-2-2 grip however (as that tends to be more common) by adding an overhang, we're really only looking at additional length for the index and middle fingers on top of the mouse.










In mice with no button overhang (i.e. the WMO) there are a few different options. One is for the ring finger to sit at the end of the right side, in which case the index and middle fingers will most likely hang over the top edge of the mouse.










Another option is to curl the index and middle fingers in order to compensate.










We can also move the entire grip back, so that the index and middle fingers can sit fully within the given dimensions. However, this will result in leftover room on the right side of the mouse, in front of the ring finger.










This leftover room has more to do with the base length of the mouse than the overhang itself, so let's take a look at that next.

Typically, positioning the ring finger closer to the edge of the mouse's side will offer greater control. This isn't too dissimilar to how holding a pen closer to the nib offers greater precision. When the right side of the mouse continues to extend beyond where the ring finger rests, there is more mass in front of the fingertips that is having to be moved while aiming. This is why, in regards to the overall feeling of control, the button overhang does not have as much of an impact as the overall base does. So, when assessing the lengths of mice, it is important to be aware of where the base / sides end (and where the overhang, if present, begins). Once we start to consider this, we realize that many of the mice we look at as 128mm, 124mm, 120mm, etc., are actually a bit misleading in their dimensions. Let's take a look at a few popular mice, and see how the Astrum compares.

*WMO*: A total length of 124mm with no button overhang, resulting in its base length being the entire 124mm.










*Astrum*: A total length of 133mm with 9mm of button overhang, resulting in its base length being 124mm.
This means that the Astrum and WMO will feel similar in terms of length that is actually being controlled. The Astrum's added button length means the index and middle fingers won't hang off of the edge or require curling. The WMO having no button overhang means that the edges of the mouse will round straight down. The difference between these two may come down to preference, however the more impacting measurement of base length will feel exactly the same. By doing things this way, bst can offer a mouse that maneuvers just like the WMO, while at the same time avoiding any potential issues that may come from copying the shell exactly.

*G403*: A total length of 124mm with 24mm of button overhang, resulting in its base length being 100mm.










*Astrum S*: A total length of 123mm with 9mm of button overhang, resulting in its base length being 114mm.
This means that while the overall lengths of the Astrum S and G403 are nearly identical, the two mice will feel actually feel quite different in terms of the physical length that is being controlled. The G403 maneuvers like a mouse that has a 100mm base length, whereas the small version of the Astrum will feel like a mouse that has a 114mm base length. I think the most surprising point here is that the G403's base length on the pad is much smaller than many people realize. In fact, it shares the exact same base length of the G Pro (also 100mm). The G Pro has about 16mm of overhang, whereas the G403 has about 24mm. However, the G403 has a bit more overhang on its left mouse button than its right, due to it being an ergonomic design (this can be more easily seen by turning the mouse upside down). So, while the G Pro and G403 appear quite different in overall length (116mm vs. 124mm), the two mice are actually very similar in terms of the amount of shell that is being controlled on the pad by the ring / pinky fingers (each being the same 100mm base length). The G403 of course still feels noticeably larger than the G Pro overall, however this is mostly due to the difference in grip width, height, hump, etc., but not actually from different base lengths.

So, where does this leave us? I wrote this post because 1.) I hope it can shed light for some that may not have considered this already, but 2.) because I believe the size of the Astrum S needs to be addressed. The standard Astrum's dimensions make perfect sense, for what it is. For those that love the WMO and have been looking for a modern successor, bst is offering that same shape with nearly identical dimensions (the exact same 124mm base length, a width of 68mm for the Astrum Beta vs. 67mm for the WMO, and an identical height of 40mm including the feet). However, the Astrum S does not quite fit with the typical dimensions of other small mice. A base length of 100mm would more appropriately match mice such as the G Pro, G303, Abyssus, MasterMouse S, etc., and makes sense when considering the added button overhang that will be inherent to the Astrum's design. Even the G403 has a 100mm base length (a mouse that most small mice lovers would not group together with their G1, G100s, Aurora, etc.). As mentioned earlier, the G403 and WMO share the same 124mm of total length, however the two handle significantly differently due to the 100mm base length of the G403.










In addition to addressing the length, establishing the proper grip width is also very important if the Astrum S looks to fill the small mouse category. While the G403 and G Pro share the same 100mm base length, the G403 still feels substantially larger, and this is due in part to its 60mm grip width (along with other factors such as the height, hump size, ergonomic shape, placement of the hump, etc.). However, looking at just the grip width for now, we see that the G Pro sits inside the 50mm to 55mm range, due to the slanted sides. With the Astrum S Alpha finally offering the shape of a G1, Aurora, etc., but with totally flat and straight sides, it's important that the grip width not be too large (otherwise you risk having a slightly shorter but equally fat version of the regular Astrum). I know that bst had mentioned there being some difficulty with achieving a smaller grip width (due to the size of the PCB) but getting this measurement in line with the other classic small mice will be crucial for an overall similar feel in aim / control (it will already feel wider than most due to the fact that we're finally getting a mouse with straight sides).


----------



## a_ak57

Keep in mind that height and size/position of the hump are incredibly important factors as to how large a mouse feels. The G403 is a pretty tall mouse and has its hump further back than the WMO/Astrum, two factors that each make a mouse feel larger than something with the same length/width. That and tbh I'm not sure why you decided that the front of G403's base ends where you did, since there is still a portion of the base sticking out from there (basically to where the gap between the "4" and "m" in "24mm" is, for a base more like 110mm). Sure, it's not a rectangle at that point, but it's still the base contacting the pad and that's how the back end is too anyway.


----------



## MattKelly

a_ak57 said:


> Keep in mind that height and size/position of the hump are incredibly important factors as to how large a mouse feels. The G403 is a pretty tall mouse and has its hump further back than the WMO/Astrum, two factors that each make a mouse feel larger than something with the same length/width. That and tbh I'm not sure why you decided that the front of G403's base ends where you did, since there is still a portion of the base sticking out from there (basically to where the gap between the "4" and "m" in "24mm" is, for a base more like 110mm). Sure, it's not a rectangle at that point, but it's still the base contacting the pad and that's how the back end is too anyway.


You're definitely right that hump size/position are incredibly important - that's why I included that in my post and stressed that there are several factors, of which these measurements are only one part of the equation. 



MattKelly said:


> ...the G403's base length on the pad is much smaller than many people realize. In fact, it shares the exact same base length of the G Pro (also 100mm). So, while the G Pro and G403 appear quite different in overall length (116mm vs. 124mm), the two mice are actually very similar in terms of the amount of shell that is being controlled on the pad by the ring / pinky fingers (each being the same 100mm base length). The G403 of course still feels noticeably larger than the G Pro overall, however this is mostly due to the difference in grip width, height, hump, etc., but not actually from different base lengths.


That said, I'm isolating one measurement at a time and focusing on that. The measurement for the base ends where it does because that upwards slant is not touching the pad actually. I'm talking about the side of the mouse, not underneath in the middle, because I'm looking at the ring / pink fingers. Having fingertip contact between the mouse shell and the pad allows for greater control in that the tips of the fingers can be used to assist through braking, friction, pivoting, etc. This is very similar to how surgeons emphasize various contact points for proper technique, or how calligraphists create a relationship between their hand, their pen, and their page. Additional contact points offer added stability / control. So, looking at how far forward the ring finger can go on the right side of the mouse, while still offering contact with the pad, we can see that the shell starts to slope up and away at 100mm. This is the same for many mice (G Pro, MasterMouse S, Abyssus, G303, etc.).


----------



## iBerggman

I've come to realize that one of if not the most important aspect of a comfortable mouse for me is that it has enough room at the front right corner for my ring & pinky fingers. The G403 is still my favorite mouse because of this even though it might otherwise be too short for me to palm grip it. The fact that it has 15mm+ of usable space pretty much all the way to the very front, is a huge plus compared to other popular mice like EC1-A, Rival 310 and IE3.0 as those barely have 10mm, more like 7mm on the IE if you account for the fact that you can't really grip the very end because the buttons slope over the edge.

It seems the profile of the Astrum is similar to the G403 with a bit of added length so I'm thinking this could really be my end game.


----------



## MattKelly

iBerggman said:


> I've come to realize that one of if not the most important aspect of a comfortable mouse for me is that it has enough room at the front right corner for my ring & pinky fingers. The G403 is still my favorite mouse because of this even though it might otherwise be too short for me to palm grip it. The fact that it has 15mm+ of usable space pretty much all the way to the very front, is a huge plus compared to other popular mice like EC1-A, Rival 310 and IE3.0 as those barely have 10mm, more like 7mm on the IE if you account for the fact that you can't really grip the very end because the buttons slope over the edge.
> 
> It seems the profile of the Astrum is similar to the G403 with a bit of added length so I'm thinking this could really be my end game.


Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Having enough height on the side of the mouse to comfortably fit your ring and pinky fingers is so important. I'm anxious to finally have a G1 / Aurora shape that has flat, straight, and roomy sides.


----------



## Vaesor

I can't wait for this mouse. Anticipation is killing me. Finally something you can make ergo for the lefties.


----------



## charlieputh

@bst sent you a msg

really excited for this mouse!


----------



## senileoldman

You nerds were asking for too much.


----------



## gipetto

the more you have the more you want.


----------



## untouchable247

Hopefully the build quality will be better than current Ninox mice. My brand new black Venator suffers from creaking noise and when changing the color mode with left mouse click it freezes completely when it's orange. Every single time. Have to unplug and plug back in, then use right click to cycle through colors and it works.

With isses like that it won't be able to dig deep into the mainstream market but when you ignore those it's an amazing mouse.


----------



## bst

untouchable247 said:


> Hopefully the build quality will be better than current Ninox mice. My brand new black Venator suffers from creaking noise and when changing the color mode with left mouse click it freezes completely when it's orange. Every single time. Have to unplug and plug back in, then use right click to cycle through colors and it works.
> 
> With isses like that it won't be able to dig deep into the mainstream market but when you ignore those it's an amazing mouse.


So far I've had to choose from the available OEM mice out there, and theres not much to choose from unfortunately  The Venator's shell is pretty well made, but the way its designed can cause it to creak. So basically, its a strong mouse, its not going to break, but apparently creaking wasn't something the designers thought was an issue. 

The Astrum was designed in England by myself and an industrial design company, so things like that have been taken into account and tested for. 

The problem you have with your Venator when changing colour isn't normal (never heard of this problem before), so my advice would be to try a firmware update, if that doesn't help, contact support.


----------



## chort

bst said:


> So far I've had to choose from the available OEM mice out there, and theres not much to choose from unfortunately  The Venator's shell is pretty well made, but the way its designed can cause it to creak. So basically, its a strong mouse, its not going to break, but apparently creaking wasn't something the designers thought was an issue.
> 
> The Astrum was designed in England by myself and an industrial design company, so things like that have been taken into account and tested for.
> 
> The problem you have with your Venator when changing colour isn't normal (never heard of this problem before), so my advice would be to try a firmware update, if that doesn't help, contact support.


any updates on the astrum? it looks like it ain't going to come out anytime soon considering the kickstarter project page is not up yet.


----------



## bst

I've got almost everything I need now, the only things I'm waiting on are:

- The factory to finish painting the other Venator covers to confirm they can do the colours.
- The video guy to finish making the intro video

Pretty annoying because they're small things in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully they'll be finished during next week and it'll be ready to go.

I'm pretty sure the factory will come through next week, if the video guy hasn't, maybe I'll just make a quick video, and add the nicer one later.


----------



## ewiggle

bst said:


> I've got almost everything I need now, the only things I'm waiting on are:
> 
> - The factory to finish painting the other Venator covers to confirm they can do the colours.
> - The video guy to finish making the intro video
> 
> Pretty annoying because they're small things in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully they'll be finished during next week and it'll be ready to go.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the factory will come through next week, if the video guy hasn't, maybe I'll just make a quick video, and add the nicer one later.


I'll tell you what. If you even have a blank landing page with a buy/support button, you've already got the crowd from here ready to back the project.


----------



## chort

bst said:


> I've got almost everything I need now, the only things I'm waiting on are:
> 
> - The factory to finish painting the other Venator covers to confirm they can do the colours.
> - The video guy to finish making the intro video
> 
> Pretty annoying because they're small things in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully they'll be finished during next week and it'll be ready to go.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the factory will come through next week, if the video guy hasn't, maybe I'll just make a quick video, and add the nicer one later.


what the guy above me said, at this point it's just stalling things and wasting time on minuscule issues, a lot of people are anticipating the mouse and delays that can be avoided shouldn't be present.


----------



## a_ak57

I dunno, first impressions are absolutely huge on Kickstarter as the people who haven't been following a project since its inception are probably only going to check the page out once.


----------



## virtual sorcery

ewiggle said:


> I'll tell you what. If you even have a blank landing page with a buy/support button, you've already got the crowd from here ready to back the project.


And even more people who visit it and get discouraged


----------



## ewiggle

a_ak57 said:


> I dunno, first impressions are absolutely huge on Kickstarter as the people who haven't been following a project since its inception are probably only going to check the page out once.


You are right about that. And they'll only check the first 3-10 seconds of the easiest to digest content (prolly the video) before making a judgement call.

Guess I'm just being selfish in wanting the mouse asap lol. So many good mice out lately, gottah catch them all.


----------



## bst

The thing is you only really get one chance on these crowd funding sites, so I have to make it appeal to as many people as possible. I don't want to lose people because they didn't understand the product, or that the effort put into the page somehow reflects the effort put into the mouse.

It'll be up within 3 weeks, I could do it now, but then if what I said above is true, it'd really suck to have it fail to save a relatively short amount of time.

I don't know how many people from here or reddit will buy one, maybe it'll be enough to fund the mouse, but its really difficult to know for sure. So I have to cover all the bases, just in case.


----------



## James N

bst said:


> The thing is you only really get one chance on these crowd funding sites, so I have to make it appeal to as many people as possible. I don't want to lose people because they didn't understand the product, or that the effort put into the page somehow reflects the effort put into the mouse.
> 
> It'll be up within 3 weeks, I could do it now, but then if what I said above is true, it'd really suck to have it fail to save a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> I don't know how many people from here or reddit will buy one, maybe it'll be enough to fund the mouse, but its really difficult to know for sure. So I have to cover all the bases, just in case.



Pretty sure you will have plenty of people interested in your mouse. For me personally, it is basically all i am waiting for. There isn't really anything else that i am interested in or haven't tried yet. If this really is a worthy replacement for people that love the WMO, you will get plenty of customers. I am super hyped. Can't wait.

But yea, definitely take your time and make sure everything works out. That is better than rushing things for sure.


----------



## Nx87

bst said:


> I don't know how many people from here or reddit will buy one, maybe it'll be enough to fund the mouse, but its really difficult to know for sure. So I have to cover all the bases, just in case.


I'll be amazed if you don't get hundreds of crowdfund supporters rolling in every other day. I'm going to be one of them, can't wait.

I can really see the wisdom in waiting for the right moment to launch, I mean its a fine line between a great project meeting its goal or going viral and exploding.
I think a lot of that is down to presentation, especially when it comes to marketing a product that has seriously solid unique selling points.

-Lightest modular mouse ever
-Top optical sensor
-Adjustable sensor position
-Classic shapes with side buttons

A slick video that hammers those facts forward will get the attention of the big tech sites on YouTube and set the hypetrain off at full speed.


----------



## Avalar

Nx87 said:


> I'll be amazed if you don't get hundreds of crowdfund supporters rolling in every other day. I'm going to be one of them, can't wait.
> 
> I can really see the wisdom in waiting for the right moment to launch, I mean its a fine line between a great project meeting its goal or going viral and exploding.
> I think a lot of that is down to presentation, especially when it comes to marketing a product that has seriously solid unique selling points.
> 
> -Lightest modular mouse ever
> -Top optical sensor
> -Adjustable sensor position
> -Classic shapes with side buttons
> 
> A slick video that hammers those facts forward will get the attention of the big tech sites on YouTube and set the hypetrain off at full speed.


I'd include something about how the OCN community and real gamers/enthusiasts' thoughts and opinions was part of what made it possible. Basically, the opposite of Finalmouse, and other small companies that promise big things without delivering.


----------



## chort

Nx87 said:


> I'll be amazed if you don't get hundreds of crowdfund supporters rolling in every other day. I'm going to be one of them, can't wait.
> 
> I can really see the wisdom in waiting for the right moment to launch, I mean its a fine line between a great project meeting its goal or going viral and exploding.
> I think a lot of that is down to presentation, especially when it comes to marketing a product that has seriously solid unique selling points.
> 
> -Lightest modular mouse ever
> -Top optical sensor
> -Adjustable sensor position
> -Classic shapes with side buttons
> 
> A slick video that hammers those facts forward will get the attention of the big tech sites on YouTube and set the hypetrain off at full speed.


-comes in many coatings
-hotline mouse feet
-most likely a flexible cable
-omrons/optical switches for main buttons
-F type/optical for mouse wheel


----------



## Aliandro1d

cant wait to start designing different side attachments for this


----------



## gene-z

What's the status of this for people that have not been following the thread?


----------



## Klopfer

gene-z said:


> What's the status of this for people that have not been following the thread?


go 1 page back ...


----------



## lurkerguy

Nice to hear things are finally getting close to being finished. With all these delays and all, are we still going to see the smaller mouse if the normal version gets funded to a certain point?


----------



## ewiggle

Nx87 said:


> -Adjustable sensor position


Is that still in play? This is probably going to be my favorite part. I've never had a mouse that did this. I thought it was just going to be a more forward sensor and that's it (and that's what I want). But this is even better if it's still in play lol. Of course I'm just going to push it all the way forward and leave it there.


----------



## gipetto

yep, I got this pic of the base off the ninox facebook, a little hard to find as it is buried in comments.


----------



## gene-z

gipetto said:


> yep, I got this pic of the base off the ninox facebook, a little hard to find as it is buried in comments.


Have they shared dimensions of the base shape? Really hope it's similar to the G3/G100s.


----------



## chort

gene-z said:


> Have they shared dimensions of the base shape? Really hope it's similar to the G3/G100s.


39 tall 
58 wide for alpha
68 for beta
70 for a gamma+beta
and 72 for gamma


----------



## abso

chort said:


> 39 tall
> 58 wide for alpha
> 68 for beta
> 70 for a gamma+beta
> and 72 for gamma


Is this maximum width or gripwidth?


----------



## Aliandro1d

abso said:


> Is this maximum width or gripwidth?


max at the end of the wings........... you can see this from the picture if it was 72 grip it'd be one fat ass rectangle


----------



## gene-z

chort said:


> 39 tall
> 58 wide for alpha
> 68 for beta
> 70 for a gamma+beta
> and 72 for gamma


Did you forget length, or they haven't shared?


----------



## Klopfer

I copy&paste a sentence of bst from FB post ....
"The alpha shape is 58mm wide, 133mm long, 39mm high (beta is the same except the width is 68mm at the back). The reason for the length is there is 1cm of button overhang at the front so people with long fingers don't have them dangle over the edge."


----------



## gene-z

Klopfer said:


> I copy&paste a sentence of bst from FB post ....
> "The alpha shape is 58mm wide, 133mm long, 39mm high (beta is the same except the width is 68mm at the back). The reason for the length is there is 1cm of button overhang at the front so people with long fingers don't have them dangle over the edge."


Wow, 133mm length, that is really long. So it's quite a bit longer than an FK1. That's unfortunate.


----------



## Excinase

gene-z said:


> Wow, 133mm length, that is really long. So it's quite a bit longer than an FK1. That's unfortunate.


"The reason for the length is there is 1cm of button overhang at the front so people with long fingers don't have them dangle over the edge"


----------



## Kirisu

Excinase said:


> "The reason for the length is there is 1cm of button overhang at the front so people with long fingers don't have them dangle over the edge"


And people with shorter finger or claw grip will suffer harder clicks and awkward finger position. Really not convinced with this length.


----------



## Excinase

Kirisu said:


> And people with shorter finger or claw grip will suffer harder clicks and awkward finger position. Really not convinced with this length.


How is it gonna make clicks harder? Switch will still be in the same position as on a smaller mouse. Length of a plastic isn't gonna make it harder to click. As for finger position, how does it make it uncomdy? Unless you have really long fingers you won't reach the overhang at all, especially if you claw. If you think 133 is the real length, you're wrong: the mouse will be 124 mm, only plastic from buttons will be extended, that's all.


----------



## Aliandro1d

Kirisu said:


> And people with shorter finger or claw grip will suffer harder clicks and awkward finger position. Really not convinced with this length.


nah it wholy depends on switch position releative to your finger/pressure if they're near the top than ye it might be hard to press if they're "centered" it'll be fine and the 1 cm overhang will have 0 influence on the stifness of the clicks it's essentially a 123mm mouse g102 with overhang on the buttons for long fingered freaks XD


----------



## iBerggman

See I don't know if I'm in the minority here but I think the dimensions, length especially, seem pretty spot on for me. I prefer to palm grip my mice and even with ~20x10cm hands there's not a whole lot of mice that don't feel too short, and I know there's people with way bigger hands than me as well so I imagine they're just as happy to see something with a little extra length. The Rival 300 is pretty much the only mouse I didn't feel like I had to fingertip but unfortunately it was a letdown in pretty much every other area so I'm happy to see the Astrum has the exact same 133mm length. To me it seems like most mice are made for fingertip or claw grip with medium sized hands so I think this is a nice change.


----------



## gene-z

Aliandro1d said:


> nah it wholy depends on switch position releative to your finger/pressure if they're near the top than ye it might be hard to press if they're "centered" it'll be fine and the 1 cm overhang will have 0 influence on the stifness of the clicks it's essentially a 123mm mouse g102 with overhang on the buttons for long fingered freaks XD


Hmmm... so you're saying it's around a G102 size? That's a huge difference between the dimensions I see and what the G102 shape is. The G102/GPRO are very short mice.


----------



## MattKelly

gene-z said:


> Hmmm... so you're saying it's around a G102 size? That's a huge difference between the dimensions I see and what the G102 shape is. The G102/GPRO are very short mice.


His implication was that the Astrum isn’t really going to feel like a 133mm mouse, and instead it will feel more like a 124mm mouse, with an extra 9mm of overhang. The G102 isn’t a great comparison though, as the G102 also has some overhang of its own. So the G102 handles more like a 100mm mouse, with an extra 7mm of overhang.

I think a more fitting comparison would be: the Astrum will feel like a WMO (124mm base length) with some extra button length on the top for long fingers.


----------



## gene-z

MattKelly said:


> His implication was that the Astrum isn’t really going to feel like a 133mm mouse, and instead it will feel more like a 124mm mouse, with an extra 9mm of overhang. The G102 isn’t a great comparison though, as the G102 also has some overhang of its own. So the G102 handles more like a 100mm mouse, with an extra 7mm of overhang.
> 
> I think a more fitting comparison would be: the Astrum will feel like a WMO (124mm base length) with some extra button length on the top for long fingers.


That's interesting. The mouse is advertised as a modular mouse, so would be interesting to have replaceable top shells without overhang, but probably too late for that.


----------



## k0fz

gene-z said:


> That's interesting. The mouse is advertised as a modular mouse, so would be interesting to have replaceable top shells without overhang, but probably too late for that.


You will be able to 3D print your own top shell.


----------



## chort

gene-z said:


> That's interesting. The mouse is advertised as a modular mouse, so would be interesting to have replaceable top shells without overhang, but probably too late for that.


replacing the buttons will be much more complicated since it wasn't designed for that.


----------



## gipetto

Does anyone know what model of mcu will be used by the astrum?


----------



## lurkerguy

Better question would be whether the MCU is still on the sidebuttons PCB or not since I'm sure people who aren't interested in using side buttons in this mouse would rather take that needless weight off.


----------



## empyr

Not sure if these have already been answered, but yeah..

How many colors will the mouse be available in? and.. What type of coating will be "standard"? (Which leads me to, will there be different types of coating available?)


----------



## iBerggman

Bst posted this on reddit:

"Standard Colours:

Matte UV Metallic White
Matte UV Metallic Black

Special Colours (crowd fund only). I haven't 100% decided on these, so theres a few different ones. But it will be 5 out of these, depending on how they each come out:

Glossy Black Chrome
Rubber Light Grey
Metallic Red, either matte or glossy
Metallic Blue, either matte or glossy
Metallic Purple, either matte or glossy
Metallic Green, either matte or glossy

So 7 colours in total."

Some examples on the Venator shell:


----------



## empyr

Exactly what i was looking for, thank you very much iBerggman!


----------



## lucaspada894

Jesus Christ this mouse is taking forever...


----------



## vanir1337

lucaspada894 said:


> Jesus Christ this mouse is taking forever...


Why don't you make your own mouse then, but way faster than bst?  Stop being impatient, it won't speed up the process.


----------



## Excinase

iBerggman said:


> Bst posted this on reddit:
> 
> "Standard Colours:
> 
> Matte UV Metallic White
> Matte UV Metallic Black
> 
> Special Colours (crowd fund only). I haven't 100% decided on these, so theres a few different ones. But it will be 5 out of these, depending on how they each come out:
> 
> Glossy Black Chrome
> Rubber Light Grey
> Metallic Red, either matte or glossy
> Metallic Blue, either matte or glossy
> Metallic Purple, either matte or glossy
> Metallic Green, either matte or glossy
> 
> So 7 colours in total."
> 
> Some examples on the Venator shell:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcCFMKJeVAY&feature=youtu.be


Glossy black chrome... Gonna instantly crowd fund if it's gonna be the thing.


----------



## Ukkooh

lucaspada894 said:


> Jesus Christ this mouse is taking forever...


I believe the Aurora took even longer. 
It also feels long because bst has been very open about the developement


----------



## Leopardi

lucaspada894 said:


> Jesus Christ this mouse is taking forever...


Hey at least it's coming. Logitech has been holding up the successor for G100s for years and years, and will probably never do it.


----------



## vanir1337

Leopardi said:


> Hey at least it's coming. Logitech has been holding up the successor for G100s for years and years, and will probably never do it.


They call it G Pro, G102, G203 and now G305 mate. Sorry to say that but it's true.


----------



## Leopardi

vanir1337 said:


> They call it G Pro, G102, G203 and now G305 mate. Sorry to say that but it's true.


They can call it whatever they want, but the slant down to 50mm width makes the shape feel very much different. Not to talk about the failed tensioning.


----------



## ov3rmind

g pro shape is different from g1 or g100s shells. If someone says it's same, he(or she) is completely idiot


----------



## vanir1337

ov3rmind said:


> g pro shape is different from g1 or g100s shells. If someone says it's same, he(or she) is completely idiot


Tell that to the mastermind engineers of Logitech. I also do hate the sides of the G Pro and co. but I'm pretty sure they won't ever go back to the design of the G100s.


----------



## Aliandro1d

matte colours look amazing


----------



## Leopardi

vanir1337 said:


> Tell that to the mastermind engineers of Logitech. I also do hate the sides of the G Pro and co. but I'm pretty sure they won't ever go back to the design of the G100s.


Well, if this thing feels like a G100s in hand, we won't be needing Logitech


----------



## vanir1337

Leopardi said:


> Well, if this thing feels like a G100s in hand, we won't be needing Logitech


+1, I have lost all hope in big companies already, and bst delivered more than I expected with the Venator.


----------



## 3Shells

Leopardi said:


> Well, if this thing feels like a G100s in hand, we won't be needing Logitech


It wont, there's 17cm difference in length between a g100s and the Astrum.


----------



## favoxhille

overhangs (for buttons but also in general, like for sides as fingers support etc) feel kinda awkward and make movements clumsy if your hands are not big enough, if i was the creator id simply add these as optional attachments along all the others, and this advice comes from someone that wouldnt even buy it being 124mm long, but at least you would make up for those worried about it being too long


----------



## vanir1337

3Shells said:


> It wont, there's 17cm difference in length between a g100s and the Astrum.


I guess you meant mm.


----------



## NicoNicoNii

Hopefully the Astrum feels more like the M100 than the G100s, M100 was far more comfortable. Idk why Logitech didn't just stick a better sensor into the M100 shell, their office mice have the most comfortable shapes.


----------



## t3ram

Which type of buttons use the sidebuttons?
And are they this kind of "standing" like on the Venator or "laying" like on a G Pro`?

Btw. isn't it possible anymore to show all pictures that were posted in this thread on the "new" forum ? ^^


----------



## gipetto

> Btw. isn't it possible anymore to show all pictures that were posted in this thread on the "new" forum ? ^^ 
It is, click on the top right icon beside the search box and go subscriptions. then click on attachments beside the thread in question.


----------



## empyr

Any news on the ETA, bst?


----------



## t3ram

empyr said:


> Any news on the ETA, bst?


It will be up on kickstarter until half of the next month i gues


----------



## bst

Don't worry, won't be much longer, I promise!



t3ram said:


> Which type of buttons use the sidebuttons?
> And are they this kind of "standing" like on the Venator or "laying" like on a G Pro`?
> 
> Btw. isn't it possible anymore to show all pictures that were posted in this thread on the "new" forum ? ^^


The switches are like in the Aurora, as in a separate PCB in the roof of the mouse, with 90 degree switches. The side buttons are attached to the inside of the side parts. They are like a U shaped tab with the buttons on each end of the U shape. They feel good in the prototype, they will need some tweaking during tooling, along with the front buttons, to make sure they come out well, I think the overall design is good.


----------



## gene-z

Leopardi said:


> Hey at least it's coming. Logitech has been holding up the successor for G100s for years and years, and will probably never do it.


I think this mouse is too big to be a proper successor to the G100s. I think this mouse is more a medium sized mouse, with options to make it larger.


----------



## bst

gene-z said:


> I think this mouse is too big to be a proper successor to the G100s. I think this mouse is more a medium sized mouse, with options to make it larger.


Yeah, its more like a diamondback with straight sides. A shorter and lower one would be more like the G100s.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> Yeah, its more like a diamondback with straight sides. A shorter and lower one would be more like the G100s.


I like that it will have the extra height on the sides (provides more room for the ring / pinky fingers to sit comfortably). I just wish the mouse was a bit shorter. Any thoughts on the long post I made regarding base length / overhang for the small version, @bst?

Link to post: http://www.overclock.net/forum/375-...x-astrum-swapable-shells-72.html#post27374785


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Don't worry, won't be much longer, I promise!



*Fingers crossed for next week*


----------



## James N

bst said:


> Yeah, its more like a diamondback with straight sides. A shorter and lower one would be more like the G100s.


If its similar to the WMO , then i am happy as hell.


----------



## chort

James N said:


> If its similar to the WMO , then i am happy as hell.


alpha is longer g100/streight diamond back
beta is wmo


----------



## bst

MattKelly said:


> I like that it will have the extra height on the sides (provides more room for the ring / pinky fingers to sit comfortably). I just wish the mouse was a bit shorter. Any thoughts on the long post I made regarding base length / overhang for the small version, @bst?
> 
> Link to post: http://www.overclock.net/forum/375-...x-astrum-swapable-shells-72.html#post27374785


Sorry, I forgot to reply to your post, I wanted to think about it, but just haven't had much time. I'm immersed in the medium size one at the moment 

My initial thoughts about it, and just in general, is it never really comes down to one thing, like the base length. The position of the hump, the height, the shape of the sides, the curvature of the hump as seen from the rear view, the width and so on all play their part in how the mouse feels.

I'm not sure that the idea of the ring finger being closer to the front gives more control, because a mouse isn't like a pen. If you hold a pen further up, then the movement of the pen relative to your finger movement is magnified, but that doesn't happen with a mouse since the sensor isn't right at the front. I'm not completely dismissing your idea, just not sure about it 

The Astrum S will probably have a different front design to it though, because on the normal Astrum I don't have to worry about the front edge being super comfortable, since 99.9% of people's fingers will never reach it. But with the small version, I have to keep in mind that some people like to use a mouse which is a smaller size than is really suited to their hand size, so the front will most likely wrap around more in a curve, so its comfortable to rest your finger against it.

I can probably make the mouse 2mm thinner each side, for a 54mm width. It probably won't have the adjustable sensor, since there would be less room for it. But it'd be a light mouse, maybe down to 60g.

I really appreciate your post and any ideas, at the moment though I'm not focusing on the small mouse, I don't want to spend time on it yet, because theres enough to do with the larger version. I think in about 2 months, as long as the Astrum gets funded, I'll be ready to start designing the Astrum S, then we can talk about it in detail and get the design worked out. But so far the idea is something like this:

- Investigate reducing the width
- Shorten the length
- Decrease the height
- Make the front more curvy/comfortable

The thing about reducing the base length is, if I do that then the vertical angle from the top of the front buttons, to the front of the base, will be very large, so the front buttons would have to raise up to help make it a less aggressive angle. I have to try and see how that changes the feel of the mouse.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> Sorry, I forgot to reply to your post, I wanted to think about it, but just haven't had much time. I'm immersed in the medium size one at the moment
> 
> My initial thoughts about it, and just in general, is it never really comes down to one thing, like the base length. The position of the hump, the height, the shape of the sides, the curvature of the hump as seen from the rear view, the width and so on all play their part in how the mouse feels.
> 
> I'm not sure that the idea of the ring finger being closer to the front gives more control, because a mouse isn't like a pen. If you hold a pen further up, then the movement of the pen relative to your finger movement is magnified, but that doesn't happen with a mouse since the sensor isn't right at the front. I'm not completely dismissing your idea, just not sure about it
> 
> The Astrum S will probably have a different front design to it though, because on the normal Astrum I don't have to worry about the front edge being super comfortable, since 99.9% of people's fingers will never reach it. But with the small version, I have to keep in mind that some people like to use a mouse which is a smaller size than is really suited to their hand size, so the front will most likely wrap around more in a curve, so its comfortable to rest your finger against it.
> 
> I can probably make the mouse 2mm thinner each side, for a 54mm width. It probably won't have the adjustable sensor, since there would be less room for it. But it'd be a light mouse, maybe down to 60g.
> 
> I really appreciate your post and any ideas, at the moment though I'm not focusing on the small mouse, I don't want to spend time on it yet, because theres enough to do with the larger version. I think in about 2 months, as long as the Astrum gets funded, I'll be ready to start designing the Astrum S, then we can talk about it in detail and get the design worked out. But so far the idea is something like this:
> 
> - Investigate reducing the width
> - Shorten the length
> - Decrease the height
> - Make the front more curvy/comfortable
> 
> The thing about reducing the base length is, if I do that then the vertical angle from the top of the front buttons, to the front of the base, will be very large, so the front buttons would have to raise up to help make it a less aggressive angle. I have to try and see how that changes the feel of the mouse.


This is a great response - thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to understand my position, and I hear you as well regarding the pen analogy. You're right that, since the sensor isn't up at the front, it isn't so much a relationship between fingers / sensor control. I think it's more the relationship between fingers / controlling the shell. With less mass in front of the fingers, it allows the ring finger to move the shell a bit easier (an example, as you mentioned, would be someone with large hands electing to use a smaller mouse... if their ring finger sits up at the edge of the side/base, then they can sort of pull the mouse backwards against the palm for small adjustments, because the fingertip has some leverage in front of the side/base). This of course requires the front edge to be accommodating and comfortable, but it's clear that you have a good understanding of that (which makes me very, very, happy to hear).

I totally understand your perspective on the timeline, though. I look forward to discussing the Astrum S in more detail one day, but it can wait! I'll be here to bounce ideas off of until then 



xmr1 said:


> Sounds great to me so far. Going to get the regular size Astrum either way but more excited for the S version.


Likewise. I'd also buy / use the regular Astrum until then, but an S version at around 60g sounds like perfection.


----------



## xmr1

bst said:


> Sorry, I forgot to reply to your post, I wanted to think about it, but just haven't had much time. I'm immersed in the medium size one at the moment
> 
> My initial thoughts about it, and just in general, is it never really comes down to one thing, like the base length. The position of the hump, the height, the shape of the sides, the curvature of the hump as seen from the rear view, the width and so on all play their part in how the mouse feels.
> 
> I'm not sure that the idea of the ring finger being closer to the front gives more control, because a mouse isn't like a pen. If you hold a pen further up, then the movement of the pen relative to your finger movement is magnified, but that doesn't happen with a mouse since the sensor isn't right at the front. I'm not completely dismissing your idea, just not sure about it
> 
> The Astrum S will probably have a different front design to it though, because on the normal Astrum I don't have to worry about the front edge being super comfortable, since 99.9% of people's fingers will never reach it. But with the small version, I have to keep in mind that some people like to use a mouse which is a smaller size than is really suited to their hand size, so the front will most likely wrap around more in a curve, so its comfortable to rest your finger against it.
> 
> *I can probably make the mouse 2mm thinner each side, for a 54mm width. It probably won't have the adjustable sensor, since there would be less room for it. But it'd be a light mouse, maybe down to 60g.*
> 
> I really appreciate your post and any ideas, at the moment though I'm not focusing on the small mouse, I don't want to spend time on it yet, because theres enough to do with the larger version. I think in about 2 months, as long as the Astrum gets funded, I'll be ready to start designing the Astrum S, then we can talk about it in detail and get the design worked out. But so far the idea is something like this:
> 
> - Investigate reducing the width
> - Shorten the length
> - Decrease the height
> - Make the front more curvy/comfortable
> 
> *The thing about reducing the base length is, if I do that then the vertical angle from the top of the front buttons, to the front of the base, will be very large, so the front buttons would have to raise up to help make it a less aggressive angle.* I have to try and see how that changes the feel of the mouse.


Sounds great to me so far. Going to get the regular size Astrum either way but more excited for the S version.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I have to keep in mind that some people like to use a mouse which is a smaller size than is really suited to their hand size, so the front will most likely wrap around more in a curve, so its comfortable to rest your finger against it.


YES, we do like it that way  .

Also release the first version with a MATT finish, to help newbies adapt to the new shape being released.

If you use a shiny finish most will find it extremely uncomfortable and lose grip, then make the unruly assumption it's the shape that is wrong, instead of the finished surface.

ALWAYS release a safe, finished mouse shape before you start releasing numerous colours and finishes. After all, it's about spending money on a safe design first before embarking on risky endeavours.


----------



## Elrick

This is a question for BST here;

Are the new Ninox Venator Gaming Mouse - White version, the very latest model with fixed scroll wheel and switches like your all Black version being sold on Max Gaming Webstore?

https://us.maxgaming.com/gaming-mice/venator-gaming-mouse-white-2

Please let me know because I miss owning an all white model that is FIXED.


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> YES, we do like it that way  .
> 
> Also release the first version with a MATT finish, to help newbies adapt to the new shape being released.
> 
> If you use a shiny finish most will find it extremely uncomfortable and lose grip, then make the unruly assumption it's the shape that is wrong, instead of the finished surface.
> 
> ALWAYS release a safe, finished mouse shape before you start releasing numerous colours and finishes. After all, it's about spending money on a safe design first before embarking on risky endeavours.


Well the standard colours are matte black or white, those are the only two options outside of the crowd funding.

You can get special colours/materials during crowd funding, but since they'll be more expensive, I think most people will just go for the black or white ones. You'd have to specifically want a glossy one to order one. In case anyone is wondering why they're more expensive, its for two main reasons - 1. They are specifically to raise more funds, and 2. The box contents will be individually checked to make sure they are all the correct colour and material before shipping (for the black or white standard ones, the SKU/barcode is checked instead).




Elrick said:


> This is a question for BST here;
> 
> Are the new Ninox Venator Gaming Mouse - White version, the very latest model with fixed scroll wheel and switches like your all Black version being sold on Max Gaming Webstore?
> 
> https://us.maxgaming.com/gaming-mice/venator-gaming-mouse-white-2
> 
> Please let me know because I miss owning an all white model that is FIXED.


No, sorry. The white ones don't sell very well, everyone wants the black one. There aren't many white ones left, so I could order them next, but its kind of got a stigma now. If you had a black and a white one, its possible to swap the top of the white shell over (the very top), to the top of the black one, and it should be much better.


----------



## 1802nkins

bst said:


> Well the standard colours are matte black or white, those are the only two options outside of the crowd funding.
> 
> You can get special colours/materials during crowd funding, but since they'll be more expensive, I think most people will just go for the black or white ones. You'd have to specifically want a glossy one to order one. In case anyone is wondering why they're more expensive, its for two main reasons - 1. They are specifically to raise more funds, and 2. The box contents will be individually checked to make sure they are all the correct colour and material before shipping (for the black or white standard ones, the SKU/barcode is checked instead).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, sorry. The white ones don't sell very well, everyone wants the black one. There aren't many white ones left, so I could order them next, but its kind of got a stigma now. If you had a black and a white one, its possible to swap the top of the white shell over (the very top), to the top of the black one, and it should be much better.


hello mr bst , i wanna ask 2 

a. do u have an artisan mousepad like hien / shidenkai ?

b. about the sensor , is it work on artisan pad like hien / shidenkai ?


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> No, sorry. The white ones don't sell very well, everyone wants the black one. There aren't many white ones left, so I could order them next, but its kind of got a stigma now. If you had a black and a white one, its possible to swap the top of the white shell over (the very top), to the top of the black one, and it should be much better.


You still never said, whether the White ones on Max Gaming are the FIXED versions or the much hated older ones?

Don't care what others want or their perceptions of which colour sells well, just need to know if the current models on sale at Max Gaming are all fixed and updated with newer scroll wheel and switches.


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> bst said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, sorry. The white ones don't sell very well, everyone wants the black one. There aren't many white ones left, so I could order them next, but its kind of got a stigma now. If you had a black and a white one, its possible to swap the top of the white shell over (the very top), to the top of the black one, and it should be much better.
> 
> 
> 
> You still never said, whether the White ones on Max Gaming are the FIXED versions or the much hated older ones?
> 
> Don't care what others want or their perceptions of which colour sells well, just need to know if the current models on sale at Max Gaming are all fixed and updated with newer scroll wheel and switches.
Click to expand...

I answered your question in the very first sentence 😛


----------



## bst

1802nkins said:


> hello mr bst , i wanna ask 2
> 
> a. do u have an artisan mousepad like hien / shidenkai ?
> 
> b. about the sensor , is it work on artisan pad like hien / shidenkai ?


Sorry, I don't have an artisan mouse pad. However if other 3360 mice work well on them, then the Astrum will also. The 3360 works well even on glass pads so I'd imagine it'll be fine. Most likely there are lots of people on here who own a 3360 mouse and artisan pad who'll be able to confirm.


----------



## 1802nkins

bst said:


> Sorry, I don't have an artisan mouse pad. However if other 3360 mice work well on them, then the Astrum will also. The 3360 works well even on glass pads so I'd imagine it'll be fine. Most likely there are lots of people on here who own a 3360 mouse and artisan pad who'll be able to confirm.


thx 4 d answer , i cant wait for it mr bst , i hope there will be an easy way to shipping astrum to indonesia


----------



## bst

1802nkins said:


> thx 4 d answer , i cant wait for it mr bst , i hope there will be an easy way to shipping astrum to indonesia


Indonesia is no problem


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I answered your question in the very first sentence 😛


So basically you didn't fix the errors within the White Model, thanks for clearing that up.

The reason why it didn't sell well, is your refusal to fix your MISTAKES on that White model, get that straight first before blaming the public on what colours they chose (seems like a tragic mistake on your part, for what reason who knows).

If you hadn't fixed the Black version like you did, then you wouldn't of sold much of anything on the Max Gaming web store.


----------



## Zakman

Any new pictures to share, bst?

And if you were to raise the amount needed for the crowdfunder within something like a week, how long would it take for the mice to launch and ship?


----------



## Trefle

Elrick said:


> bst said:
> 
> 
> 
> I answered your question in the very first sentence 😛
> 
> 
> 
> So basically you didn't fix the errors within the White Model, thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> The reason why it didn't sell well, is your refusal to fix your MISTAKES on that White model, get that straight first before blaming the public on what colours they chose (seems like a tragic mistake on your part, for what reason who knows).
> 
> If you hadn't fixed the Black version like you did, then you wouldn't of sold much of anything on the Max Gaming web store.
Click to expand...

This post is so dumb and out of empathy you made me register into this forum even though ive been lurking for a year. The guy does all the work by himself, he's not steelseries or razer. Why would he fix the white version if its going to cost him more money than he gains from it? Hes not refusing anything, hes saying that black is the one that is being sold the most rn, and if you want a better white version just swap the case on top. Clearly youre the only one asking for a fixed white version here.


----------



## Trefle

Bst, youre making my dream work, proud of you man! Keep it up.


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> So basically you didn't fix the errors within the White Model, thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> The reason why it didn't sell well, is your refusal to fix your MISTAKES on that White model, get that straight first before blaming the public on what colours they chose (seems like a tragic mistake on your part, for what reason who knows).
> 
> If you hadn't fixed the Black version like you did, then you wouldn't of sold much of anything on the Max Gaming web store.


I'm not blaming the public for their colour preferences, I'm just saying that people want the black one because they know its been improved over the white one. So naturally the black on turns over stock at a much higher rate.

I don't mind talking about the Venator, but please can we do it in its thread, I don't want to take this one too far off topic. Hope you understand.



Zakman said:


> Any new pictures to share, bst?
> 
> And if you were to raise the amount needed for the crowdfunder within something like a week, how long would it take for the mice to launch and ship?


As far as I know its still against the rules for companies to post photos on here of their products, sorry 

If I raise the funds in a week, it'll take about 5 months until its delivered to your door, depending on where you are in the world (some countries have slow customs and so on). If it takes the full amount of time for funding, then it'll take a month longer. There will be a detailed timeline on the crowdfunding page when its up.


----------



## nyshak

Now I'm confused: Which shape/size of the Astrum will the like (or close) to the shape/size of the Ninox Aurora? I remember you saying there was a shape close to that and that would be the shape I am primarily interested in.


----------



## bst

The Alpha shape is the Aurora one.
Beta is more like a WMO and you can use side parts to make it more ergonomic.

Just to help anyone whos confused, the way the naming works is like this:

Alpha, Beta, etc... = the overall shape

Then letters after them represent the options on the left and right side of the mouse in that order:
X = No side buttons
I = Side buttons
E = Ergonomic sides

So heres some examples:

Alpha IX = Alpha shape with side buttons on the left, but none on the right.
Alpha XI = Alpha shape with no side buttons on the left, and with side buttons on the right
Alpha II = Alpha shape with side buttons on both sides
Alpha XX = Alpha shape without any side buttons
(thats the full range of the alpha shape)

Beta works the same, just with one difference:
Beta IE = Beta shape with side buttons on the left, and ergonomic on the right
(full Beta range is II/XX/IX/XI/IE/EI/XE/EX/EE)

If you look at old pictures, you can see I used to call the ergonomic parts "gamma", but since they work with the other Beta parts I made the naming reflect that.

Gamma, Delta etc can still be used, maybe for a Venator shape, or if someone makes a popular 3D printed shape, we could make tooling for it and make it an official shape you can add on. So as long as they work with the Astrum's base, new shapes can be added, and sold separately, without needing to buy a whole new mouse.


----------



## empyr

@*bst* 

I'm sorry if i missed this: For people who back the project, will they be receiving all 3(?) shapes so you can customize/try them out in the *specific color* that it was ordered/backed in?
I know OP mentioned the part with "all of the shapes", but curious what means for the "special colors" that you mentioned.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I'm not blaming the public for their colour preferences, I'm just saying that people want the black one because they know its been improved over the white one. So naturally the black on turns over stock at a much higher rate.
> 
> I don't mind talking about the Venator, but please can we do it in its thread, I don't want to take this one too far off topic. Hope you understand.


Of course but people choosing the Black version of Venator basically meant that they wanted the FIXED version and not the damaged old White Version.

Hoping you will NEVER do this again with the upcoming model here because following in the steps of FinalMouse Company, isn't good business practice nor builds confidence in any of your products. ALWAYS be honest and answer questions like a normal person and not like some politician.

Remember this is a very crowded market with loads of choices for everybody out there. Hence producing a product to match the BIG boys means that you have to be far more active with people's concerns and you're willing to FIX your products when they fail. Otherwise what would be the point in buying any of your products when you operate as any other company, refusing to repair a faulty design or substandard components that were implemented?

I'm far and away NOT disappointed in what you achieved here BST you are a very valuable individual in providing us all with another alternative in "Gaming Mice". So please don't look at my criticisms as some kind of attack or negative disapproval. EVERY company needs criticism to keep them steady and straight with their policy's and design.

Because you are here still answering questions (to the best of your abilities) shows you are willing to listen, which is always a fine act for any company to do these days.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Sorry for the barrage of questions lol. Any estimate on the prices of the crowdfunding package(s) yet?


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> @*bst*
> 
> I'm sorry if i missed this: For people who back the project, will they be receiving all 3(?) shapes so you can customize/try them out in the *specific color* that it was ordered/backed in?
> I know OP mentioned the part with "all of the shapes", but curious what means for the "special colors" that you mentioned.


Its the same no matter what colour you buy, the Astrum comes with 12 parts which attach to the core of the mouse, which you use to make the different shapes. So yes everyone gets all the shapes 



Elrick said:


> Of course but people choosing the Black version of Venator basically meant that they wanted the FIXED version and not the damaged old White Version.
> 
> Hoping you will NEVER do this again with the upcoming model here because following in the steps of FinalMouse Company, isn't good business practice nor builds confidence in any of your products. ALWAYS be honest and answer questions like a normal person and not like some politician.
> 
> Remember this is a very crowded market with loads of choices for everybody out there. Hence producing a product to match the BIG boys means that you have to be far more active with people's concerns and you're willing to FIX your products when they fail. Otherwise what would be the point in buying any of your products when you operate as any other company, refusing to repair a faulty design or substandard components that were implemented?
> 
> I'm far and away NOT disappointed in what you achieved here BST you are a very valuable individual in providing us all with another alternative in "Gaming Mice". So please don't look at my criticisms as some kind of attack or negative disapproval. EVERY company needs criticism to keep them steady and straight with their policy's and design.
> 
> Because you are here still answering questions (to the best of your abilities) shows you are willing to listen, which is always a fine act for any company to do these days.


I'm not answering questions like a politician, I just don't want to get into it on this thread, like I said before if you want to talk about it in detail just post in the Venator thread where I'll be happy to answer any questions you have and take on board any suggestions as well. These questions are about the Venator and I don't know how much you want to talk about it, so I think its better to talk about it in its own thread.

The thing is with the white ones is, it was too difficult to fix things like the scroll wheel, it wasn't much different than just placing another order (fixing things is usually more difficult and time consuming than just making them again). So I decided to discount them and order in the black ones with improvements instead. This allowed people who the imperfections weren't a big concern to still have one. I'm not sure if you think I'm still ordering in white ones with their issues, I'm not, the white ones are just on clearance. The only other thing I could have done with them is thrown them away. But remember we are talking about some creaking of the shell, pre-travel on the buttons, and a scroll wheel which is a bit rattly. I know it isn't great, but its not like they're actually faulty, so throwing them away seems wrong to me. But you know, its the kind of thing where you make a decision on one hand, and on the other, you prevent it from happening again. Maybe I could have made a better decision, but its done now, and I've learnt from it (which is a big reason why I want to make a mouse of my own design rather than rely on OEM designs that aren't designed to the highest standards).



Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Sorry for the barrage of questions lol. Any estimate on the prices of the crowdfunding package(s) yet?


It will be $64.99 for a standard Astrum, $84.99 for a special colour, there will be discounts for early backers.


----------



## Avalar

Nice!


----------



## iBerggman

Yeah that's a bit lower than I was expecting tbh. Looks like I might actually get both a normal uv matte black as well as the light grey rubber version, if the rubberized version ends up being one of the special colours that is.


----------



## James N

Yea for that price i will most likely buy a black and a matte red one.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> As far as I know its still against the rules for companies to post photos on here of their products, sorry


Could you hint towards certain Facebook posts where we could find new pics? 



bst said:


> If I raise the funds in a week, it'll take about 5 months until its delivered to your door, depending on where you are in the world (some countries have slow customs and so on). If it takes the full amount of time for funding, then it'll take a month longer. There will be a detailed timeline on the crowdfunding page when its up.


I'm guessing it'll be quicker for those of us in Europe/NA? Even quicker for fellow Brits?


----------



## nyshak

Throwing money at the screen but it won't stick!


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> Could you hint towards certain Facebook posts where we could find new pics?


Most of them are in the gallery, and theres a few posts about the Astrum in the timeline which have some pics in the comments. Although to be honest I've been saving revealing everything for the crowd fund, I don't want people to get bored of seeing it before its available 




Zakman said:


> I'm guessing it'll be quicker for those of us in Europe/NA? Even quicker for fellow Brits?


Yeah, its fastest for Brits because the first port of call for the mice is a warehouse there, then they're distributed to warehouses in the US, Canada, and Australia.
This is the shipping service I'm using: https://www.blackbox.cool/
They're used to crowd funds and they guarantee the deliveries, also they can ship pretty much worldwide.


----------



## Str1kernaut

With the swappable shells, will there be the possibility to have a shape similar to the Intellimouse 3.0?


----------



## vanir1337

Str1kernaut said:


> With the swappable shells, will there be the possibility to have a shape similar to the Intellimouse 3.0?


It will be a lot smaller, but I guess the beta:gamma shape can be a tad similar.


----------



## bst

vanir1337 said:


> It will be a lot smaller, but I guess the beta:gamma shape can be a tad similar.


Yeah, that one is pretty close, I wouldn't say its a lot smaller though, just a bit smaller. BTW, I'm calling it "Beta IE" now, the IE part just means side buttons on the left, and ergonomic part on the right.


----------



## iBerggman

Yeah, I thought they would be pretty similar (Beta especially) looking at the dimensions, although the Astrum of course has a little shorter base at 124mm due to the overhang. But still I think the length of the usable grip area should be similar because if you account for the fact that the right corner on the intellimouse is shorter than the rest of the shell it actually leaves you with a grip length that's pretty close to 124mm, no?

Intellimouse: 132 x 69 x 43mm (LxWxH)

Alpha: 133 x 58 x 40mm 
Beta: 133 x 68 x 40mm
Gamma (Beta IE): 133 x 73 x 40mm


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Its the same no matter what colour you buy, the Astrum comes with 12 parts which attach to the core of the mouse, which you use to make the different shapes. So yes everyone gets all the shapes



Thank you!


----------



## bst

Yeah, the size is pretty close, and it feels similar to hold (but ofc, not exactly the same). The main difference I found with them was the Astrum (Beta IE) has a more grippy right side, it has less of a wedge shape overall. I really like the ambi-ergo combination. Its not a common style, but it works really well for gaming IMO.

The pros and cons of them, is the IE3 feels more sculpted (fits your hand in a certain grip style), but the Astrum is more forgiving with grip style and more secure feeling. It doesn't force you to hold it in a certain way. But it also doesn't have the kind of comfort grooves and wedge shape the IE3 has. So it depends on what you value more. Although, I am talking about pretty small details, the average person would probably say they fel the same


----------



## lucaspada894

So... will the crowdfunding ever begin?


----------



## chort

lucaspada894 said:


> So... will the crowdfunding ever begin?


read back a few pages


----------



## unplayed namer

what platform will the crowdfunding take place on?

I cannot wait to get this little beauty into my hands


----------



## gipetto

>what platform will the crowdfunding take place on?
indiegogo


----------



## Excinase

bst, do you have an ETA for kickstarter?


----------



## bst

Excinase said:


> bst, do you have an ETA for kickstarter?


I will have an exact date soon, but its close, about 10 days. I should have the exact date in 3 days or so since thats when I send out the press packs to news websites, which ofc I need an exact date for


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Could I pay you now? For reals, lol.


----------



## Excinase

bst said:


> I will have an exact date soon, but its close, about 10 days. I should have the exact date in 3 days or so since thats when I send out the press packs to news websites, which ofc I need an exact date for


Sounds great! Can't wait!


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I will have an exact date soon, but its close, about 10 days. I should have the exact date in 3 days or so since thats when I send out the press packs to news websites, which ofc I need an exact date for


You confident on a date yet mate? Sorry to be an annoying knob, just really excited for this mouse  Could possibly be the endgame mouse for me


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> I will have an exact date soon, but its close, about 10 days. I should have the exact date in 3 days or so since thats when I send out the press packs to news websites, which ofc I need an exact date for


can i see the final/current firmware?


----------



## Avalar

If the early makes the special colored Astrums 60-70 bucks, I’m definitely getting more than one.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Would it be possible to get extra mouse feet with my Astrum(s)? Like two sets. I’ll probably be replacing the cable and putting on aftermarket feet, but sometimes, I find that I like the stock feet on mice more.


----------



## empyr

*



*
I'm trying to throw money at the monitor but it ain't working.


----------



## gipetto

delete


----------



## Headway

Any info on the dimensions of the all shapes?


----------



## 0verpowered

Can we pre-order? I don't want this to turn into FM Ultralight round 2 and be stuck having to pay exorbitant prices just to get one.


----------



## Avalar

Why isn’t this screen accepting my currency!?


----------



## empyr

0verpowered said:


> Can we pre-order? I don't want this to turn into FM Ultralight round 2 and be stuck having to pay exorbitant prices just to get one.



It's going to be a kickstarter.


----------



## empyr

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/lightweight-modular-gaming-mouse-computers/coming_soon


----------



## Avalar

0verpowered said:


> Can we pre-order? I don't want this to turn into FM Ultralight round 2 and be stuck having to pay exorbitant prices just to get one.


Seconded. If I miss out on the beginning crowdfunding packages because I was at work or something, I’ll die. D;


----------



## frunction

giving bst preorder money in 2018


----------



## Ashbury

xmr1 said:


> Sounds great to me so far. Going to get the regular size Astrum either way but more excited for the S version.


Just adding to the chorus - I, too, will get the regular size but am far more excited about the smaller size. I think a lot of us, myself included, would really like something small, light, super flex cable, fk2 shape, crisp clicks, etc. The g pro did a lot of things right, but the shape is really not ideal. If someone could combine the best of the g pro with the shape of the fk2, I'd probably stop reading this forum.


----------



## Aliandro1d

frunction said:


> giving bst preorder money in 2018


cmonBruh


----------



## qsxcv

holy f adjustable sensor pos


----------



## favoxhille

adjustable sensor position sounds sweet and 2 middle hump shapes look really comfy, but i wont waste my money on something that is the double of my go to mouse size, hope this one will make it so we will maybe see the S version


----------



## qsxcv

bst any info about the switches and wheel encoder? i guess i've never used a mouse with an optical encoder that i really like, so i'm kind of concerned


----------



## 7175

Real nice presentation video. Put my email down on Ninox site and the indiegogo site for an alert when kickstarter goes active. Can't wait to get my hands on one of these.


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> You confident on a date yet mate? Sorry to be an annoying knob, just really excited for this mouse  Could possibly be the endgame mouse for me


I might have one tomorrow evening, I'm just going through everything this weekend making sure everything is ready.



qsxcv said:


> can i see the final/current firmware?


Its still being worked on atm, but yeah, you can see it when its ready 



qsxcv said:


> bst any info about the switches and wheel encoder? i guess i've never used a mouse with an optical encoder that i really like, so i'm kind of concerned


They're made by LK, the switches don't feel that different to Omron IMO, or lets just say, they are more in the Omron direction than Huano or TTC. I think they're nice, they don't have a ton of pre or post travel, and are quiet. They'll be slightly customised on the operating and release forces, since they were a bit light in standard form - mostly what that meant was on release, they didn't spring back as aggressively as Omrons, so rapid fire clicking wasn't as seamless. But that was the only downside I found with them.

The encoder is like a mechanical one, same form factor, so it feels just like a mechanical one. The difference is that inside it works like an optical encoder. It feels good, not much different from the F-Switch used in the Venator.


----------



## a_ak57

After digging out my WMO and using it for a bit, I'm pretty excited for this again. For whatever reason the WMO feels more comfortable than the IME3.0 for me nowadays even though it had always been the opposite. Guess my grip has changed to be more suited for ambi mice after using one at work and the G403 at home for a long time (I know the G403 is ergo, but it's much more mild than the IME3.0). Beta IE seems like it'll probably be my go-to.


----------



## Ukkooh

Can you use the sideparts without the top? With my grip my hands never touch that area so it might be possible to use it like that if the weight balance doesn't get skewed too much.


----------



## chort

Ukkooh said:


> Can you use the sideparts without the top? With my grip my hands never touch that area so it might be possible to use it like that if the weight balance doesn't get skewed too much.


don't think you can, I think it needs to be attached so you can screw the sides without them falling off


----------



## neophobia

bst said:


> They're made by LK, the switches don't feel that different to Omron IMO, or lets just say, they are more in the Omron direction than Huano or TTC. I think they're nice, they don't have a ton of pre or post travel, and are quiet. They'll be slightly customised on the operating and release forces, since they were a bit light in standard form - mostly what that meant was on release, they didn't spring back as aggressively as Omrons, so rapid fire clicking wasn't as seamless. But that was the only downside I found with them.
> 
> The encoder is like a mechanical one, same form factor, so it feels just like a mechanical one. The difference is that inside it works like an optical encoder. It feels good, not much different from the F-Switch used in the Venator.


Sorry for that question - I don't know if it was answered before - I'm really sorry if it was - but: why not just Omrons then?


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> Can you use the sideparts without the top? With my grip my hands never touch that area so it might be possible to use it like that if the weight balance doesn't get skewed too much.


Yes, it'll be fine, you might want to use a small nut and bolt in the rear screw hole though (hard to explain, but it'd just make it secure). I tried it and its fine. The top cover only weighs about 3g though 

The top cover isn't mega important for holding the sides on, the sides clip onto the base, and the internal skeleton clamps down on the clips. I'll put a video in the crowd fund page to show how it works, its pretty simple, but just one of those things thats hard to explain in words.


----------



## iBerggman

Have you decided which the 5 special colours will be? I read through the indiegogo page as well as the reddit thread but couldn't find any mention of them. I'm not really a fan of colours so I'm hoping the grey rubberized will be one of them, black chrome would be my second choice but I'm a little unsure about that one as I haven't used a glossy mouse in years so I don't know how well that works for me.


----------



## Avalar

The anticipation kills, man. D;


----------



## mksteez

Excited for this!


----------



## empyr

Avalar said:


> The anticipation kills, man. D;



I thought bst would have a date by today


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

New video.


----------



## lurkerguy

Clicks seem nice. Looking forward to Kickstarter and seeing the smaller version happen.


----------



## Avalar

Complications?


----------



## pez

I'm at the point I'm willing to dump a small sum into a few of these, so now I just wait for news of the Kickstarter . I've signed up for the newsletter, but can't find anywhere to actually put this credit card info in to order 2 or 3 .


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> Complications?


I've finished the crowd funding page, its all ready to go, all the prices, perks, info, pics, videos etc. Its done 

I told the factory this morning that I wanted to announce it today, so it'd launch in a week's time, but now they want to get a quote for the tooling from a tooling company, just in case their tooling machines are busy when the time comes. Its a good idea, but I wish they had thought of it sooner  So I've decided to wait until that quote comes back, just in case they're a bit more expensive, I have to cover for it if it is. It shouldn't take very long, I got a quote from a UK company today, didn't take long (but, crazy high prices here so its a no go).

Thats all though, nothing else, just the usual boring annoyances


----------



## pez

I'm not sure if it was mentioned or even speculated, but what this mouse offers for a price of $80 USD would be great. Anything less is a steal considering what this offers.


----------



## t3ram

pez said:


> I'm not sure if it was mentioned or even speculated, but what this mouse offers for a price of $80 USD would be great. Anything less is a steal considering what this offers.


He once said price is 64.99$ for standard but even if it would be 100it still would be a steal


----------



## empyr

@*pez* 
https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...x-astrum-swapable-shells-82.html#post27477768


----------



## lurkerguy

$65 is already a premium price for a mouse when you can get Revel for under $40. Lets not go the Finalmouse way and ask ridiculous sums for mice that aren't even half their worth.


----------



## Klopfer

lurkerguy said:


> $65 is already a premium price for a mouse when you can get Revel for under $40. Lets not go the Finalmouse way and ask ridiculous sums for mice that aren't even half their worth.


but it's not OEM/ODM Design ...
it have swappable shells ...
it will have better firmware ...
e.g.


----------



## Ukkooh

lurkerguy said:


> $65 is already a premium price for a mouse when you can get Revel for under $40. Lets not go the Finalmouse way and ask ridiculous sums for mice that aren't even half their worth.


If the alpha is around 70g there is no competition for this mouse. I'd be willing to pay up to 150€ for this.


----------



## Avalar

lurkerguy said:


> $65 is already a premium price for a mouse when you can get Revel for under $40. Lets not go the Finalmouse way and ask ridiculous sums for mice that aren't even half their worth.


The Revel _is worth_ $40 though. However, the Astrum... Let's not give bst any ideas, hahaha. Seriously though, my savings would be taking a big hit if this mouse was priced by demand as well as cost of parts and labor. And it'd still be worth it. ;P

The only thing this mouse _isn't_ is an MMO mouse with a million buttons, and even then, you can have 4 side buttons, AND Scroll Up and Scroll Down can be bound.


----------



## pez

t3ram said:


> He once said price is 64.99$ for standard but even if it would be 100it still would be a steal





empyr said:


> @*pez*
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...x-astrum-swapable-shells-82.html#post27477768


Very helpful guys, thanks . I honestly think those are good price points and if it feels great in the hand, bam...winner.




lurkerguy said:


> $65 is already a premium price for a mouse when you can get Revel for under $40. Lets not go the Finalmouse way and ask ridiculous sums for mice that aren't even half their worth.


The difference is I haven't heard the horror stories about Ninox that I have about FM. And I've heard way too many bad things about QC that I've not even bothered to try out a Revel.


----------



## frunction

pez said:


> The difference is I haven't heard the horror stories about Ninox.


You must not have heard of the Aurora.


----------



## Menthalion

pez said:


> And I've heard way too many bad things about QC that I've not even bothered to try out a Revel.


First gen Revel clicks were a bit of a lottery, 2nd gen (black) was rock solid, half the price of a SS and comparable build.


----------



## aayman_farzand

pez said:


> The difference is I haven't heard the horror stories about Ninox that I have about FM. And I've heard way too many bad things about QC that I've not even bothered to try out a Revel.


The Aurora had some massive QC issues, Ninox just didn't push it as hard as FM did so hate died down quick.

IMO, the Revel is not all that great either. Sure it's $40 but it does not feel great to hold. I tried my friend's one (which shouldn't be 1st gen considering he purchased it quite late) and the clicks felt horrible. My personal favorite clicks are were on the G303 and anytime I make a click comparison, it is to the G303's.

Something's just off with the Revel, and I don't really care about it being $20 cheaper than most models.


----------



## Menthalion

aayman_farzand said:


> Something's just off with the Revel, and I don't really care about it being $20 cheaper than most models.


There's no mouse that has comparable clicks to a g303, not even other Logi's.

Then again, I've had most Sensei variants / clones , and my 2nd gen Revel is one of the best click wise, even compared to the original. Only other better split shell buttons I've had were on the KPO.

Shape wise I prefer the Revel over all Senseilikes. I don't think anything is off with it.


----------



## James N

Only sad thing is that we won't be getting our hands on the Astrum till at least November


----------



## empyr

James N said:


> Only sad thing is that we won't be getting our hands on the Astrum till at least November /forum/images/smilies/frown.gif


Surely that depends on how fast it reaches its goal on indie.


----------



## bst

Got the word from the factory, its all good to go, looks like its going to be going live next friday (29th).

There is a timeline on the crowd funding page which details every step and how long it takes. But just to summarise: 30 days funding, 80 days tooling, 30 days manufacturing, 30 days shipping (including shipping from factory), and you have 170 days = 5 and a half months. I am being really conservative on the tooling, just in case it takes a bit of time to get it right, it might not take that long, and I might be able to get the factory to start early if the crowd funding reaches its goal early (or, I may be able to get the funds for the deposit if a lender knows they'll get it back). So, its a tricky thing, estimating when it'll arrive at your door. But I think it is best to be conservative, even though it might put some people off, at least theres much less chance of disappointing people with an optimistic estimate.


----------



## gipetto

It's probably worth avoiding the christmas postage bottleneck. packages tend to get beat up, go missing or disappear for a month. november should be okay but if it was to be later then wait for the second week of january.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> But just to summarise: 30 days funding, 80 days tooling, 30 days manufacturing, 30 days shipping (including shipping from factory), and you have 170 days = 5 and a half months.


 @bst Are you considering starting the funding for the small Astrum sometime after the first kickstarter ends, or would you be waiting all the way until delivery before the Astrum S process begins?


----------



## bst

MattKelly said:


> @bst Are you considering starting the funding for the small Astrum sometime after the first kickstarter ends, or would you be waiting all the way until delivery before the Astrum S process begins?


If the Astrum does really well, then it can start pretty much at the end of the crowd funding. I will just start the process with the CAD designer. It will take about 2 months I guess to make that design, I mean it takes a week to 3D print it, and it'll probably need at least 2 revisions, but it'll be faster than the normal Astrum, since we've got the functionality of it all figured out already.

So, if the Astrum is a big success, then the Astrum S would probably come out a couple of months afterwards, won't need a crowd fund. That would be ideal 

If it needs a crowd fund, it might be tricky, I'm not sure about doing two at once, I have to think about it more. I have to see what happens and base the decisions on that.

I'm going to put a press pack on facebook soon, for people to send out, so if you see a site which you think could run an article on it, you can just email them the press pack and ask them to make a news piece on it. I know its a bit cheeky asking people to do that, but it does give people some power to make a difference.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> If the Astrum does really well, then it can start pretty much at the end of the crowd funding. I will just start the process with the CAD designer. It will take about 2 months I guess to make that design, I mean it takes a week to 3D print it, and it'll probably need at least 2 revisions, but it'll be faster than the normal Astrum, since we've got the functionality of it all figured out already.
> 
> So, if the Astrum is a big success, then the Astrum S would probably come out a couple of months afterwards, won't need a crowd fund. That would be ideal
> 
> If it needs a crowd fund, it might be tricky, I'm not sure about doing two at once, I have to think about it more. I have to see what happens and base the decisions on that.
> 
> I'm going to put a press pack on facebook soon, for people to send out, so if you see a site which you think could run an article on it, you can just email them the press pack and ask them to make a news piece on it. I know its a bit cheeky asking people to do that, but it does give people some power to make a difference.


That all sounds great (and I think the press pack is actually a solid idea). I sent you a PM regarding the CAD designing / revisions, by the way 

Thanks again!


----------



## Avalar

How much would a smaller Astrum weigh anyway? Idk if I could even control something as low as 60g or so.


----------



## MattKelly

Avalar said:


> How much would a smaller Astrum weigh anyway? Idk if I could even control something as low as 60g or so.


He mentioned previously it may not have the adjustable sensor and could weigh as low as 60g. Personally, I would be in love with that.


Edit: Found it


bst said:


> The Astrum S will probably have a different front design to it though, because on the normal Astrum I don't have to worry about the front edge being super comfortable, since 99.9% of people's fingers will never reach it. But with the small version, I have to keep in mind that some people like to use a mouse which is a smaller size than is really suited to their hand size, so the front will most likely wrap around more in a curve, so its comfortable to rest your finger against it.
> 
> I can probably make the mouse 2mm thinner each side, for a 54mm width. It probably won't have the adjustable sensor, since there would be less room for it. But it'd be a light mouse, maybe down to 60g.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

bst said:


> So, if the Astrum is a big success, then the Astrum S would probably come out a couple of months afterwards, won't need a crowd fund. That would be ideal .


Then how will the limited edition colours work? :Upside-Down Face:


----------



## xmr1

bst said:


> Got the word from the factory, its all good to go, looks like its going to be going live next friday (29th).
> 
> There is a timeline on the crowd funding page which details every step and how long it takes. But just to summarise: 30 days funding, 80 days tooling, 30 days manufacturing, 30 days shipping (including shipping from factory), and you have 170 days = 5 and a half months. I am being really conservative on the tooling, just in case it takes a bit of time to get it right, it might not take that long, and I might be able to get the factory to start early if the crowd funding reaches its goal early (or, I may be able to get the funds for the deposit if a lender knows they'll get it back). So, its a tricky thing, estimating when it'll arrive at your door. But I think it is best to be conservative, even though it might put some people off, at least theres much less chance of disappointing people with an optimistic estimate.


"Beta tester" package you mentioned before still going to be a funding option and if so what would the timeline be on receiving the early copy?

Also what was the result of all the cable options you tested?


----------



## pez

frunction said:


> You must not have heard of the Aurora.


You're right I definitely hadn't. Well we can all see how it goes. My first FM is the UL Pro and it's build quality and QC has been pretty good for my copy. Guess I can hope the same for this mouse.


----------



## bst

0mega1Spawn said:


> Then how will the limited edition colours work? :Upside-Down Face:


I could still do a small crowd fund for that, although, every time I do it, I have to check with the factory. It could be that they're only prepared to do it as a one off for the original Astrum. I have to ask the factory at the time.



xmr1 said:


> "Beta tester" package you mentioned before still going to be a funding option and if so what would the timeline be on receiving the early copy?
> 
> Also what was the result of all the cable options you tested?


I'm not going to do the beta test ones anymore, its too hard to guarantee them, the factory doesn't really like making them (not a lot of them, at least), but if they're not busy, they probably would. Its just that I don't know if they'll be busy or not. So its something that has to be looked at closer to the time.

The cables are another thing that has to wait, because I'll only know for sure when they've been tested for EMI, which will happen during tooling. My PCB designer seems to think it won't be a problem, but in the end I have to see what the test results are. There are 3 cables going for testing:
- Venator cable (a more flexible version of it)
- Spiral shield cable (same as the venator but more flexible because of the shield)
- No shield cable (pretty similar to a paracord, but slightly less flexible because it won't use silicone cables)


----------



## nyshak

Hm, nice to see the attention to the cable - something ALL other companies seem to ignore. Instead of fixing cable drag they start drilling holes in the mouse shell to attract dust 

If it's not as flexible as a true paracord people like me will end up modding it anyway, though.


----------



## lurkerguy

What's the verdict on the no shield cable? Is it legal to include it in the package if it doesn't come installed by default?


----------



## bst

lurkerguy said:


> What's the verdict on the no shield cable? Is it legal to include it in the package if it doesn't come installed by default?


Yes, it would be illegal, any cable you put in the box is included in "the product" and so will need testing for its intended purpose, and if it fails, you can't sell it. You also can't say something like, "This cable is intended for ornamental purposes", they'll just get round that and say its obviously intended for use with the mouse.


----------



## Zakman

We gonna be seeing any pre-kickstarter reviews or marketing pushes?


----------



## gipetto

I used to be an amateur radio operator so I read many of the fcc legal cases. 27mhz radio is restricted to 40 channels and 4 watts transmit power. there was a constant legal game of cat and mouse and severe fines of 100k on manufacturers who wanted to sell radios with better specifications. There was eventually a stalemate when the manufacturers sold their radios for 28mhz and left conversions to the customer. I wouldn't want to run foul of the fcc in any event.
I think ps/2 cable lacks a shield so could be sold legally.


----------



## lurkerguy

That's interesting. If it doesn't pass the tests which will probably be the case, would the no shield cable be a special backer reward from Kickstarter then sold separately?


----------



## pez

Use whatever the hell Razer does. The paracord cables that we can get from CeeSa are nice as well, but I've never had a single complaint about Razer's cables lately. The old ones used to have a fraying problem (solved by a simple bungee), but the newer ones are just simple flexible and easy to manage. Obviously, avoid whatever the hell Logitech uses . Oh and also not whatever FM is using.


----------



## empyr

bst, is it Friday or still waiting?


----------



## Rhys7

is there a release date for this mouse at all?


----------



## chort

Rhys7 said:


> is there a release date for this mouse at all?


no


----------



## Rhys7

is there a left handed shell for stupid big hands? ^^

does anyone have the dimensions of the big shells ? can they be compared to an existing mouse?


----------



## gipetto

if you look at 5 seconds from the end of this video you can see the left handed configuration. it's supposed to be similar to the wmo shape, which i understand is similar to the io1.1

https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...x-astrum-swapable-shells-84.html#post27497650


----------



## bst

lurkerguy said:


> That's interesting. If it doesn't pass the tests which will probably be the case, would the no shield cable be a special backer reward from Kickstarter then sold separately?


I honestly don't know if it'll pass the tests or not, there are filters on the PCB which block a lot, so its possible, I think it has a chance. I've done everything I can, anyway. But if it doesn't pass, then I don't think I can sell an unshielded cable, not officially. 

Its just different for businesses, an individual making DIY mouse cables gets away with it, theres no scrutiny on them, but a business has to be a lot more careful.



Rhys7 said:


> is there a release date for this mouse at all?


When the Indiegogo page goes live on Friday, there will be a timeline which estimates the release date.



Rhys7 said:


> is there a left handed shell for stupid big hands? ^^
> 
> does anyone have the dimensions of the big shells ? can they be compared to an existing mouse?


You can set it up to be left handed, and the shell is a medium size, however it has some extra button overhang at the front for those with longer fingers. It depends how large you hands are really.



empyr said:


> bst, is it Friday or still waiting?


Its still due to launch on Friday


----------



## Rhys7

do we have any dimensions for the larger shells?

my hands are 21.5cm by 11cm...i use an fk1+ but the mouse is too flat and just slightly not wide enough...any improvement from this mouse will be brilliant but you said its a medium shell


----------



## bst

Rhys7 said:


> do we have any dimensions for the larger shells?
> 
> my hands are 21.5cm by 11cm...i use an fk1+ but the mouse is too flat and just slightly not wide enough...any improvement from this mouse will be brilliant but you said its a medium shell


Its a different kind of shape to the FK in a way, so the measurements are different all over.

Its longer than an FK1+ at 133mm vs 128mm
Its width at the front is more like a FK2 at 58mm vs 60mm
Its width in the middle is the same as the FK2 (58mm)
The width at the back depends on the shape, but the more "FK" type shape is between the FK1+ and FK2 at 67.5mm (FK1+ is 68mm, FK1 is 67mm)
The height is taller than the FK1+ at 39.5mm vs 38mm

Hope that helps... its really difficult to know for sure without holding it though. I think the main thing depends if you like the mouse to be slightly taller, and thinner grip at the front.


----------



## thrillhaus

Is the ergo configuration modeled off anything existing?


----------



## bst

thrillhaus said:


> Is the ergo configuration modeled off anything existing?


Nothing existing, no. It was sculpted then scanned in, and a model was made from that.


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Its still due to launch on Friday


Awesome


----------



## Rhys7

bst said:


> Its a different kind of shape to the FK in a way, so the measurements are different all over.
> 
> Its longer than an FK1+ at 133mm vs 128mm
> Its width at the front is more like a FK2 at 58mm vs 60mm
> Its width in the middle is the same as the FK2 (58mm)
> The width at the back depends on the shape, but the more "FK" type shape is between the FK1+ and FK2 at 67.5mm (FK1+ is 68mm, FK1 is 67mm)
> The height is taller than the FK1+ at 39.5mm vs 38mm
> 
> Hope that helps... its really difficult to know for sure without holding it though. I think the main thing depends if you like the mouse to be slightly taller, and thinner grip at the front.


ah okay thanks for the info, its a no go for me then really struggle with the width of a mouse cheers though


----------



## k0fz

Rhys7 said:


> ah okay thanks for the info, its a no go for me then really struggle with the width of a mouse cheers though


If I remember correctly you'll be able to 3D print your own shell for this mouse though? So just make a version of the original shell that's X% bigger or something. Well, I guess it's not exactly that simple since it needs to fit the bottom shell, but still.


----------



## Ukkooh

Just got an email from the newsletter with a link to an information pack.


----------



## xmr1

Gloss chrome is dope.


----------



## Klopfer

xmr1 said:


> Gloss chrome is dope.


fully agree  
the Luna looks also good , but Rubber coating can be hit or miss ...


----------



## pez

Yep, I third that black chrome gloss. That'll be the model I go for if/when this goes live on Friday.


----------



## Straifer

'Black Knight'  well the name alone made my choice for me.


----------



## Avalar

This is too freaking hard.


----------



## Avalar

Could we know the prices now? Tryin to narrow down the colors...


----------



## t3ram

Avalar said:


> Could we know the prices now? Tryin to narrow down the colors...


Its already posted somewhere in the thread 😉 
The normal one was 65 and the special colour 84? if i remember correctly


----------



## Avalar

t3ram said:


> Its already posted somewhere in the thread 😉
> The normal one was 65 and the special colour 84? if i remember correctly


He said there'd be some sort of discount for early backers though, too.


----------



## DazzaInOz

xmr1 said:


> Gloss chrome is dope.





Klopfer said:


> fully agree
> the Luna looks also good , but Rubber coating can be hit or miss ...





pez said:


> Yep, I third that black chrome gloss. That'll be the model I go for if/when this goes live on Friday.





Straifer said:


> 'Black Knight'  well the name alone made my choice for me.





Avalar said:


> This is too freaking hard.


Aarrgghh, I want all the colors. One for each Avenger!


----------



## Wepeel

Are the main buttons convex like on the Sensei or flat?


----------



## Gauanqh6764

..


----------



## a_ak57

nobelharvards said:


> https://youtu.be/BcCFMKJeVAY
> 
> They look like they're either flat or slightly indented. Definitely not convex like the Sensei.



FYI that's the Venator, not the Astrum. Based on the first pic on the Astrum's webpage, the buttons are convex.


----------



## lainx

Omg, White Matte. Thank you Jesus!
I wonder how the Luna feels like. Any comparisons?

Super glad that there's several matte options. Gonna go with white for myself and perhaps a green one for the SO.
Is there any difference between regular matte and metallic matte? I see that the white one just says "matte".


----------



## Avalar

So I've given it some thought. I'll get Nebula cuz it's my favorite color, Luna because I've never had a rubberized mouse before, and Black Knight for the sake of getting one with a different coating.


----------



## lainx

Avalar said:


> So I've given it some thought. I'll get Nebula cuz it's my favorite color, Luna because I've never had a rubberized mouse before, and Black Knight for the sake of getting one with a different coating.


Rubber is honestly my favourite usually, but the downside is that it always start to peel off after X months of use. It's highly likely that this mouse will suffer from it as well, since i haven't heard of any rubberized mouse that doesn't start to peel. I assume you already knew this though 
I'm considering it as well, it's a really nice colour. Decisions decisions..


----------



## KGPrime

lainx said:


> Rubber is honestly my favourite usually, but the downside is that it always start to peel off after X months of use. It's highly likely that this mouse will suffer from it as well, since i haven't heard of any rubberized mouse that doesn't start to peel. I assume you already knew this though
> I'm considering it as well, it's a really nice colour. Decisions decisions..


So it is truly rubber coated? It would seem so i just haven't heard it specifically stated and i want to know for sure. 

The mouse i use cost under 20 bucks and the rubber coating has not come off in nearly 3 years now with daily use, plus playing Quake ect, so it is obviously possible to last. Surely it won't last forever ever, but it's so much better than straight plastic which feels cheap and gross to me now it's worth the trade off if it does indeed last a few years. Wish it were black but whatever.


----------



## empyr

I'm really torn between a lot of these. Can't really get them all, but the Luna (just to try the rubber coating), Nebula, Black Knight, Redshift and just to be very edgy, the Dilithium. 

Hmm...

@*bst* - Is there a big difference in the matte vs glossy coating feel? And how "grippy" is the rubberized coating on the Luna? (Compared to the matte/glossy coating)


----------



## Klopfer

the Luna ( grey ) is marked as "rubber" , the only one with rubber , all others are matte or glossy


----------



## Ukkooh

Glad I'm not the only one who cant decide between the colors. Would go for the purple one in a heartbeat if it was matte.


----------



## hammelgammler

I would also like to know which colors are different in grip/feeling. I would like to buy every color which differs in grip from each other, just to have the best grip possible.


----------



## hisXLNC

is the matte white pearl white or whiteout white?


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

I narrowed down my list to Black Knight, Luna, and Red Shift.


----------



## popups

The side buttons look to be way too high for me.

I think the bottom will scrape certain mouse pads. Making the mouse wider by printing different panels probably would make things worse if you don't put some feet on them.


----------



## vanir1337

popups said:


> I think the bottom will scrape certain mouse pads. Making the mouse wider by printing different panels probably would make things worse if you don't put some feet on them.


I had the same concern, but bst told me that the bottom cannot touch the mouse pad. With custom side panels it can happen I guess, but as you mentioned you just need to pust some feet on them and done.


----------



## hisXLNC

i really like the black knight, but the glossy surface makes me think to just get the regular matte black


----------



## pez

I think the notification emails may be going to my spam as I haven't seen any news outside of checking the thread. Do we have a 'go live' time for today?


----------



## iBerggman

pez said:


> I think the notification emails may be going to my spam as I haven't seen any news outside of checking the thread. Do we have a 'go live' time for today?


Yes, I copied this from the email:

"The Ninox Astrum Crowd Fund is launching on Friday 29th June, at 20:00 UTC / 15:00 CT!"


----------



## Alya

The Luna is so pretty. I know which one I'm getting.


----------



## shatterboxd3

Is the matte a textured finish like the WMO is or is it completely smooth? Any mice that the rubberized can compare to? Eagerly waiting for this!


----------



## wmoftw

shatterboxd3 said:


> Is the matte a textured finish like the WMO is or is it completely smooth? Any mice that the rubberized can compare to? Eagerly waiting for this!


I would like to know this as well


----------



## chort

how to change the LEDs on the astrum


----------



## bst

shatterboxd3 said:


> Is the matte a textured finish like the WMO is or is it completely smooth? Any mice that the rubberized can compare to? Eagerly waiting for this!


The matte is exactly the same as the Venator's matte coating, so quite smooth. The rubber is like the DM Pro S.


----------



## FieryLight

Hey so I've never used Indiegogo before, will there be a way I can buy 2 of different colours under the same order so that there's only one shipping cost? (I convinced my friend to grab one with me too ;P)


----------



## Excinase

bst, is shipping to Russia fine?


----------



## mksteez

What time is it supposed to be up?


----------



## Excinase

In 15 mins basically.


----------



## bst

Less than 10 mins to go


----------



## bst

Its up!


----------



## MattKelly

Matte white ordered - can't wait. Good luck with the launch, @bst!


----------



## xmr1

Grabbed the 1st Black Knight. Didn't know it was going to be extra but that's the one I wanted so went for it anyway. Clearly I have a problem.


----------



## Excinase

Bought Luna! Wanted Black Knight but didn't expect it to be that expensive... :'(


----------



## Ukkooh

Just bought 2x special colors. Really wanted to get one black knight but it simply was too expensive.

Edit: Originally had order #35 for the aurora and #42 for this one. Always a bit late i guess haha.


----------



## empyr

Order ID 3 & 4  - Got myself Luna, Redshift & Dilithium. Solid amount of info on the page, hope everything works out @*bst* !


----------



## Leopardi

Link?


----------



## iBerggman

Leopardi said:


> Link?


https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/...t-modular-gaming-mouse-computers/x/18842561#/


----------



## gipetto

bought the cheapest one, 12% backed already, at this rate it won't take long to fund.


----------



## aCz-

Bought one too... long waiting is gone.  

good luck with everything bst, ty for effort you put in.


----------



## t3ram

sorry if this was asked before or not
if you reach your goal how long would it take to sell them normal on maxgaming/amazon or anything else ?


----------



## SuPeR_oNioN_MaN

xmr1 said:


> Grabbed the 1st Black Knight. Didn't know it was going to be extra but that's the one I wanted so went for it anyway. Clearly I have a problem.


When I was looking through the press package I wanted the Black Knight as well but I couldn't bring myself to spend $110 for the paint option


Order ID 38 && 96 bought the matte white, matte black and matte blue. I can't wait for this thing! I'm so hyped!


----------



## t3ram




----------



## hammelgammler

Only via credit card? What options do I have without a credit card? :/

I would really like to buy a few of them.


----------



## Ukkooh

hammelgammler said:


> Only via credit card? What options do I have without a credit card? :/
> 
> I would really like to buy a few of them.


I suppose you could always set up an middleman agreement with someone if you really need to. I feel OCN should be full of reputable people. Basically you send them money and they use their card. Can't say if this is illegal in your country though.


----------



## lurkerguy

Tried my hardest to resist the temptation not to back it since I was more interested in the smaller version but it was too hard. Hopefully the campaign will be successful, it's off to a great start.


----------



## hammelgammler

Ukkooh said:


> I suppose you could always set up an middleman agreement with someone if you really need to. I feel OCN should be full of reputable people. Basically you send them money and they use their card. Can't say if this is illegal in your country though.


That would be great if there's someone living in Germany who could be the middle man for me.


----------



## Jovaye

Ordered a luna and was the #1 order  - do I get a prize for being #1 bst? haha

edit: wow, i can't believe this was my first post - I've been lurking OC for years and years.. only finally made an account last year to order a paracord haha


----------



## bst

t3ram said:


> sorry if this was asked before or not
> if you reach your goal how long would it take to sell them normal on maxgaming/amazon or anything else ?


They would appear on those stores at about the same time as people receiving their mice, it depends though, because the goal on indiegogo is the minimum I need to fulfil the indiegogo orders, I need more to be able to order more mice for Amazon, although maxgaming can put in their own advance order so there'd be no problem with them.


----------



## Wepeel

I really wanted a Black Knight and Luna but it was a bit too expensive for me so I ordered the normal black and white ones. 

Also sad there was no mention of a true ergo Astrum, where the right side of the mouse slopes down lower than the left, in the Future Developments section.


----------



## bst

I'm sorry about the Black Knight version, I tried to get it to a more reasonable cost and put it in the same tier as the other colours, but it was so difficult. However, it will be a seriously good chrome coating, done in the UK, just a 25 minute journey from where I live, so I can keep an eye on it. The factory is sending me down the unpainted parts for them first (while they assemble the mice), then, when the mice arrive, I take all of the chrome boxed Astrum's and fill the boxes with their chrome parts. This is why its a limted amount, I don't want to promise more than I can actually do


----------



## dlano

Order #142 - 1 x Astrum Black Knight

I clearly have more money than sense but what the hell, the colour looks cool.


----------



## untouchable247

First time ever I back a crowfrunding project, can't wait for my matte red Astrum.


----------



## pez

Nice. Well this will be my Xmas present to myself...or Bday...whichever . 

Ordered a Black Knight and a matte black...I must have missed the Luna because I don’t see a picture or option for it...anyone get a screen cap of it?


----------



## Ukkooh

untouchable247 said:


> First time ever I back a crowfrunding project, can't wait for my matte red Astrum.


Same here. Really hope this gets through. Would like to have someone who has followed crowdfunding projects to chime in. Is a starter spike like this usual? How likely is it to actually meet the goal?


----------



## Jovaye

pez said:


> Nice. Well this will be my Xmas present to myself...or Bday...whichever .
> 
> Ordered a Black Knight and a matte black...I must have missed the Luna because I don’t see a picture or option for it...anyone get a screen cap of it?


I think it's listed as grey rubber


----------



## Avalar

Two Colors and the Black Knight package. Site declined my card on the second purchase LOL, so I’ve gotten two Black Knights by mistake. RIP bank account.
@bst Is there any way you could fix that on your end? Bank closed today at 5pm, and will be until Monday.

Also, congrats on your mouse, dude. I knew this thing would be a friggin jackpot for you. Just makes me wonder why any of these other big companies supposedly make stuff for gamers, but didn’t think of it first.


----------



## mksteez

In for Matte Black!


----------



## Nx87

Just placed my order now too.
$14,300 raised already, really impressive!

Just wait until the "normie" websites start doing videos about it on YouTube it's gonna fly.


----------



## bst

To those who can't back the project because of paypal not being allowed, the best I can do is suggest using something like this:

https://www.mycard2go.com/en/

You can transfer funds into it and use it as a virtual credit card. There are quite a few services like this on the net, also you can find them in shopping centres, you just go in, give them cash, and they will give you a visa card with the money you gave them on it. However the online virtual cards are the fastest.

I'm not endorsing that site I linked above, but just giving it as an example. Please make sure you check out anyone before you send money to them. That company does look legit though, especially for people from Germany.


----------



## thrillhaus

Hopefully that's just the prototype PCB and the release version will use light ribbon cable.


----------



## bst

thrillhaus said:


> Hopefully that's just the prototype PCB and the release version will use light ribbon cable.


Yes, its just the prototype. There will be a lot less wires than that as well, since a lot of those wires become traces on the PCB.


----------



## duhizy

Will the other colors be available after the official launch? I want the red one but there is always something wrong with the first batch of mice.


----------



## bst

duhizy said:


> Will the other colors be available after the official launch? I want the red one but there is always something wrong with the first batch of mice.


Sorry, the colours are quite difficult to do, the factory is doing it as a special one-off. Usually they want at least 1,000 of each colour, but I managed to get them to agree to do 7 different colours.

Also, they are a reward for being a backer, if I make them available straight after, it feels like not a nice thing to do.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

I purchased one. I went with the Luna. I really wanted the blue Matte but I wasn't sure what color blue it was. I was hoping I could get more info on that? Is it a navy blue, something dark? Or something lighter. The pictures didn't do enough for me. Another question, Dec 2018 seems quite a ways away, is this date set in stone or would it possibly be earlier? I know that dates like this would usually go back so something like 2019 could be a possibility, was finding out what to expect.

IF anything were to go wrong where I would need the money paid for this to be returned back to me for....any reason, is there a way to refund?

Congrats on the launch I hope everything goes smoothly! I am enjoying the Intellimouse 3360 and you seem like a pretty good guy, so I look forward to the new mouse.


----------



## Klopfer

bst said:


> To those who can't back the project because of paypal not being allowed, the best I can do is suggest using something like this:
> 
> https://www.mycard2go.com/en/
> 
> You can transfer funds into it and use it as a virtual credit card. There are quite a few services like this on the net, also you can find them in shopping centres, you just go in, give them cash, and they will give you a visa card with the money you gave them on it. However the online virtual cards are the fastest.
> 
> I'm not endorsing that site I linked above, but just giving it as an example. Please make sure you check out anyone before you send money to them. That company does look legit though, especially for people from Germany.


here in germany we also can get at age of ~16 ? PrePaid Creditcards ( VISA / AMEX / MasterCard ) without monthly/yearly payment ... or a creditcard via Payback ... 
btw I also had the option "EC Card" ( which is normally here a regular Card from the Bank [ for example Postbank , Deutsche Bank ... ] )



-1nf1n1ty- said:


> I purchased one. I went with the Luna. I really wanted the blue Matte but I wasn't sure what color blue it was. I was hoping I could get more info on that? Is it a navy blue, something dark? Or something lighter. The pictures didn't do enough for me. Another question, Dec 2018 seems quite a ways away, is this date set in stone or would it possibly be earlier? I know that dates like this would usually go back so something like 2019 could be a possibility, was finding out what to expect.
> 
> IF anything were to go wrong where I would need the money paid for this to be returned back to me for....any reason, is there a way to refund?
> 
> Congrats on the launch I hope everything goes smoothly! I am enjoying the Intellimouse 3360 and you seem like a pretty good guy, so I look forward to the new mouse.


timeline ...


bst said:


> Got the word from the factory, its all good to go, looks like its going to be going live next friday (29th).
> 
> There is a timeline on the crowd funding page which details every step and how long it takes. But just to summarise: 30 days funding, 80 days tooling, 30 days manufacturing, 30 days shipping (including shipping from factory), and you have 170 days = 5 and a half months. I am being really conservative on the tooling, just in case it takes a bit of time to get it right, it might not take that long, and I might be able to get the factory to start early if the crowd funding reaches its goal early (or, I may be able to get the funds for the deposit if a lender knows they'll get it back). So, its a tricky thing, estimating when it'll arrive at your door. But I think it is best to be conservative, even though it might put some people off, at least theres much less chance of disappointing people with an optimistic estimate.


and on indiego faq theres something possibly about refund ...
https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/213172367-How-to-Process-a-Refund


----------



## kurtextrem

If the FK1 is the perfect shape for my hands (20x10), would you guys say there is one Astrum shape that will fit me or rather not?


----------



## untouchable247

kurtextrem said:


> If the FK1 is the perfect shape for my hands (20x10), would you guys say there is one Astrum shape that will fit me or rather not?



Why would you need another mouse when you already found the perfect shape for your hands? Okay, I know the Astrum looks awesome. I think it should be finde.


----------



## unplayed namer

just a pitty that you cannot support with paypal ... credit cards are not all that common in every country...

In the end i went through the hustle to use a virtual card and ordered myself a matte black one. I guess you'd get a fair bit more packers if paypal was allowed.

Anyway, the wait until december will be long. I hope it will be worth it


----------



## hammelgammler

Is it possible to order two different tiers (2x Luna and 2x Matt Black) together, so you only have to pay shipping once? I can't find an option for that, besides that, 4 mice would be enough for me.


----------



## DazzaInOz

I ordered the matte blue and luna. I have a job interview coming up on Tuesday so if land the job I might just buy me a Black Knight to celebrate!


----------



## ownage11

Hi, I would like to buy two, my question is it possible to update the Shipping Address? I'm definitely not going to be in the same destination country in about 5 month.


----------



## hammelgammler

Klopfer said:


> here in germany we also can get at age of ~16 ? PrePaid Creditcards ( VISA / AMEX / MasterCard ) without monthly/yearly payment ... or a creditcard via Payback ...
> btw I also had the option "EC Card" ( which is normally here a regular Card from the Bank [ for example Postbank , Deutsche Bank ... ] )


Well, sadly there's a limit of 100 Euro at once on a PrePaid Creditcard which you can get quickly, everything else needs to be verified and such and might take too long to get the Launch Discount. 


I would really like to buy more then two mice, at least three. I mean sure, I will have a Creditcard in at least two weeks, but then I have so pay 10% more per mouse, which adds up the more you buy. :/


----------



## iBerggman

ownage11 said:


> Hi, I would like to buy two, my question is it possible to update the Shipping Address? I'm definitely not going to be in the same destination country in about 5 month.


You might have to contact bst directly regarding that. You can edit your shipping address directly on the My Contribtions page on indiegogo but only if the new address is in the same destination country. The problem is that the shipping cost is different depending on the country, it could work if the new country has the same or cheaper shipping cost but you'll have to verify that yourself.


----------



## bst

hammelgammler said:


> Is it possible to order two different tiers (2x Luna and 2x Matt Black) together, so you only have to pay shipping once? I can't find an option for that, besides that, 4 mice would be enough for me.


Its difficult to do because although by itself its not that hard, its just all of the different requests can mount up. Its a shame Indiegogo can't have a shopping basket and calculate the final shipping charge by weight, it'd work a lot better that way 



ownage11 said:


> Hi, I would like to buy two, my question is it possible to update the Shipping Address? I'm definitely not going to be in the same destination country in about 5 month.


Before I send out orders, I'll email everyone, giving them a chance to change their shipping country. I don't expect many people will be in a different country, so I can just update the few addresses manually, if the shipping cost isn't anything major, you won't have to pay the difference, it'll be easier in the end.


----------



## killuchen

nooo the discount for the matte white is gone


----------



## empyr

@*bst* Where in the world are they being shipped from? (Mainly curious since import tax).


Edit: Found it, nvm


----------



## chort

empyr said:


> @bst Where in the world are they being shipped from? (Mainly curious since import tax).


usa, canada, uk and australia.


----------



## gildojuvvon

Great christmas present for myself :]


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Sorry for the spam. I’m sure you’ve got a lot on your plate lol. Anyway, if you haven’t already, I think it would be a good idea to reach out to some popular YouTube reviewers about the Astrum. Namely, Rocket Jump Ninja and that sort. Their ability to review the Astrum’s performance aside, it would get you the other 50% of the way there in no time.


----------



## chort

24 hours in and the astrum already raised over 40% + 1000th post hype


----------



## gipetto

@chort I expect funding will slow now that the discount on single units is gone.


----------



## pez

Jovaye said:


> I think it's listed as grey rubber


Ah, then that makes sense, then . I did look at that color as a nice attractive alternative, but I figured a basic matte black and a 'splurge' on the Black Knight would be the most responsible thing I could do while keeping my budget happy .


----------



## xmr1

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Sorry for the spam. I’m sure you’ve got a lot on your plate lol. Anyway, if you haven’t already, I think it would be a good idea to reach out to some popular YouTube reviewers about the Astrum. Namely, Rocket Jump Ninja and that sort. Their ability to review the Astrum’s performance aside, it would get you the other 50% of the way there in no time.


Yeah I'm not a big RJN fan but sending him a prototype would probably have helped funding a lot due to his following.


----------



## bst

I've increased the amount of discounted Astrums, since I think theres quite a few people who didn't get a chance, and I put a 5% discount on the Astrums when they run out.

RJN is doing a video, but he's been moving house this week, so its been difficult for him. He doesn't have a prototype though, I might send him one though, now there has been a decent amount of funding. The thing is, I wanted to tweak things a bit more, spend a couple more days on it, but I had reached the point where I really didn't want to spend more on it until I knew for sure there would be enough interest. A couple of days and making another couple of prototypes doesn't sound like much, but it is expensive


----------



## killuchen

bst said:


> I've increased the amount of discounted Astrums, since I think theres quite a few people who didn't get a chance, and I put a 5% discount on the Astrums when they run out.
> 
> RJN is doing a video, but he's been moving house this week, so its been difficult for him. He doesn't have a prototype though, I might send him one though, now there has been a decent amount of funding. The thing is, I wanted to tweak things a bit more, spend a couple more days on it, but I had reached the point where I really didn't want to spend more on it until I knew for sure there would be enough interest. A couple of days and making another couple of prototypes doesn't sound like much, but it is expensive




Thank you!


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I've increased the amount of discounted Astrums, since I think theres quite a few people who didn't get a chance, and I put a 5% discount on the Astrums when they run out.
> 
> RJN is doing a video, but he's been moving house this week, so its been difficult for him. He doesn't have a prototype though, I might send him one though, now there has been a decent amount of funding. The thing is, I wanted to tweak things a bit more, spend a couple more days on it, but I had reached the point where I really didn't want to spend more on it until I knew for sure there would be enough interest. A couple of days and making another couple of prototypes doesn't sound like much, but it is expensive


Has the kickstarter been going as well as you hoped?

And if RJN does get a video out then it should help push you through to the finish line since realistically all you need is around 700 more backers and his videos generate at least 10k views.

On the mouse itself, any chance of getting concave mouse grooves for the clicks? Small change (hopefully) but would make mouse a lot more comfortable


----------



## Avalar

Zakman said:


> bst said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've increased the amount of discounted Astrums, since I think theres quite a few people who didn't get a chance, and I put a 5% discount on the Astrums when they run out.
> 
> RJN is doing a video, but he's been moving house this week, so its been difficult for him. He doesn't have a prototype though, I might send him one though, now there has been a decent amount of funding. The thing is, I wanted to tweak things a bit more, spend a couple more days on it, but I had reached the point where I really didn't want to spend more on it until I knew for sure there would be enough interest. A couple of days and making another couple of prototypes doesn't sound like much, but it is expensive /forum/images/smilies/frown.gif
> 
> 
> 
> Has the kickstarter been going as well as you hoped?
> 
> And if RJN does get a video out then it should help push you through to the finish line since realistically all you need is around 700 more backers and his videos generate at least 10k views.
> 
> On the mouse itself, any chance of getting concave mouse grooves for the clicks? Small change (hopefully) but would make mouse a lot more comfortable
Click to expand...

I noticed those really small screws holding the buttons in place in pictures of the Astrum disassembled. Would be cool to be able to 3D print those, too. I might actually do that if it was available.


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> I noticed those really small screws holding the buttons in place in pictures of the Astrum disassembled. Would be cool to be able to 3D print those, too. I might actually do that if it was available.


I don't think it'll be so easy to change the buttons, it affects quite a few things, and 3D printed buttons won't be as nice as injection molded ones. I don't recommend it. But I will give it some thought.

This week I'm trying some things, the comfort grooves would most likely have to be like in this picture:
https://snag.gy/QSmpXe.jpg
Also you can see the red lines on the left and right, to smooth out that area.


----------



## cdcd

bst said:


> I don't think it'll be so easy to change the buttons, it affects quite a few things, and 3D printed buttons won't be as nice as injection molded ones. I don't recommend it. But I will give it some thought.
> 
> This week I'm trying some things, the comfort grooves would most likely have to be like in this picture:
> https://snag.gy/QSmpXe.jpg
> Also you can see the red lines on the left and right, to smooth out that area.



Personally I'd prefer no comfort grooves since it makes certain gripstyles more difficult to do, which directly counteracts what you're going for with the Astrum otherwise.


----------



## Zakman

cdcd said:


> Personally I'd prefer no comfort grooves since it makes certain gripstyles more difficult to do, which directly counteracts what you're going for with the Astrum otherwise.


Ahh, I thought comfort grooves would be a universal gain for everyone.

If it does make certain gripstyles uncomfortable then I'd recommend against it bst


----------



## SolidX

The Ninox Astrum is featured in german tech magazine Computerbase. 

https://www.computerbase.de/2018-07/ninox-astrum-crowdfunding/


----------



## ov3rmind

will astrum have / \ shape side? I don't think it's a good idea. That shape make mouse slip from hand.


----------



## exitone

This mouse looks really long for someone coming from Kone Pure/G102/EC2-B shapes. So will probably wait for the smaller version.


----------



## t3ram

ov3rmind said:


> will astrum have / \ shape side? I don't think it's a good idea. That shape make mouse slip from hand.


The sides are either straight |_| or a bit like this \_/


----------



## a_ak57

Adding comfort grooves (or any other shape modifications) would not really be a great idea when the thing is already in the midst of funding, IMO. Any changes you make now should be completely innocuous, like color options or whatever.


----------



## MattKelly

t3ram said:


> The sides are either straight |_| or a bit like this \_/


I really hope they're not a bit like this \_/
bst mentioned a few times that they were perfectly straight |_|


----------



## Zakman

MattKelly said:


> I really hope they're not a bit like this \_/
> bst mentioned a few times that they were perfectly straight |_|


Looks fairly straight

https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-med...0,w_1280/v1528987526/bc8vvhfscjhz54b41vin.jpg


----------



## Gylfen

I got the black matte, but im also curious to the indiegogo colors, whats rubbercoating like compared to matte?


----------



## bst

They are perfectly vertical 
No \ / or / \, just | |


----------



## bst

Gylfen said:


> I got the black matte, but im also curious to the indiegogo colors, whats rubbercoating like compared to matte?


Its smoother, with more of a material type of grip (rubbery), rather than grainy type of grip. I usually just recommend matte, if you don't know what the rubber will be like, matte is generally the safer choice that works well for most people. My advice is to choose rubber if you've used it before, and you know you like it, otherwise, go with matte.


----------



## DazzaInOz

I chose matte and rubber variations (and also want to get a glossy) because my grip is really affected by the temperature. It's winter here now and rubber grips are best atm but during spring through summer with moist hands the rubber can get slippery and glossy works better. When it gets really toasty here in Australia, glossy gets all slimey and slippery so it will be time to pull out the matte!


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Can't wait to see what a mouse _truly_ optimized for performance feels like. How much more responsive is the sensor and the buttons than the best that's currently available? Would the difference be noticeable?


----------



## gunit2004

The selling point for me was total customizability.

Sensor angle, sensor position, shells, etc, oooooowheeeee.


----------



## AKUMUOU

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Can't wait to see what a mouse _truly_ optimized for performance feels like. How much more responsive is the sensor and the buttons than the best that's currently available? Would the difference be noticeable?


There is no difference in the sensor, its using the same 3360 as many other mice. Its currently the best sensor on the market and theres probably very little that could be tweaked even if he wanted to. You can however customize the sensor position which is great.

The switches however should in theory reduce click latency. As to how noticeable this is well who can say, some people might notice and it and others may not. 

Regardless lower latency is always better even if you dont notice it. I think the idea some people have that lower latency is only 'good' if you can notice it is incredibly stupid. Whether or not you notice it your computer will still respond faster to a button press with lower latency than it would otherwise so its always a good thing.


----------



## bst

I can't say I notice much difference with the sensor performance, its hard to tell, because the shape of the mouse and sensor position affect how it feels.

Click latency seems to be really great though, it beats the Venator on the bounce test by 10-16ms consistently. I don't know *exactly* how much faster it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 10ms faster.


----------



## Br3chtel

Ahhhh, nice, I'm so happy for you @bst that you kicked off the indigo and it seems quite realistic, that the founding will be successful. 
But unfortunately my only support is to spread the word 'cause my financials for this and next month are planned for long needed renovation works. 

After that be sure I'll get one, or two, or three..., got some free space lately on my micerack


----------



## ov3rmind

it's good to hear that the side shape is not / \ .


----------



## wein07

I apologise in advance if this is a repeat qn...

But can anyone explain why the 133mm length for all shapes? I'm a 303 user and the \_/ shape has me converted, but |_| shape would be mightly fine too. Using a ruler, 303 length is 115mm, height is 33-34 vs 39.6mm on Astrum.

Length of my palm is pretty average, 19cm from tip of middle finger to base of palm, and I'm pretty sure I would not be able to click the left+right buttons optimally in the middle. Anyone with bigger palms would find the Alpha way too narrow. People whom like Alpha ambi-dex shaped mice usually want them smaller and more nimble. Why would they be the same length as ergo mice? 

Might I dare say this mouse is like designed for a pianist with long slender fingers??


----------



## Leopardi

gunit2004 said:


> The selling point for me was total customizability.
> 
> Sensor angle, sensor position, shells, etc, oooooowheeeee.


Then again it can also be bad. I can already see myself going "what if... what if 0,01mm lower would be the perfect point" and never be settled


----------



## bst

wein07 said:


> I apologise in advance if this is a repeat qn...
> 
> But can anyone explain why the 133mm length for all shapes? I'm a 303 user and the \_/ shape has me converted, but |_| shape would be mightly fine too. Using a ruler, 303 length is 115mm, height is 33-34 vs 39.6mm on Astrum.
> 
> Length of my palm is pretty average, 19cm from tip of middle finger to base of palm, and I'm pretty sure I would not be able to click the left+right buttons optimally in the middle. Anyone with bigger palms would find the Alpha way too narrow. People whom like Alpha ambi-dex shaped mice usually want them smaller and more nimble. Why would they be the same length as ergo mice?
> 
> Might I dare say this mouse is like designed for a pianist with long slender fingers??


I have the same size hands as you, and don't have pianist fingers, my middle finger reaches to the end of the mouse 
https://snag.gy/fEAnrF.jpg
https://snag.gy/JUjBP9.jpg
https://snag.gy/zlJ2Ix.jpg

Its just one of those things, the dimensions don't really tell the whole story. For example, if you took your 303 and just tape 18mm of extra length on the end of the buttons, it'd still be the same mouse, but if you palmed it, your fingers won't dangle off the front. Maybe they don't anyway, but that would just be because the G303 has a higher rear, which simulates the feel of a larger mouse (effectively pulling your fingers back), whereas the Astrum's hump is more towards the middle, which makes it feel smaller, and your fingers naturally rest in a more forward position.


----------



## gunit2004

Leopardi said:


> Then again it can also be bad. I can already see myself going "what if... what if 0,01mm lower would be the perfect point" and never be settled


Oh no... I already am bad for doing that with some of the mice I have right now... just imagine the Astrum with all it's adjustments...

Going to take me a good 3-4 months to "master" that mouse LOL.


----------



## wein07

bst said:


> I have the same size hands as you, and don't have pianist fingers, my middle finger reaches to the end of the mouse
> https://snag.gy/fEAnrF.jpg
> https://snag.gy/JUjBP9.jpg
> https://snag.gy/zlJ2Ix.jpg
> 
> Its just one of those things, the dimensions don't really tell the whole story. For example, if you took your 303 and just tape 18mm of extra length on the end of the buttons, it'd still be the same mouse, but if you palmed it, your fingers won't dangle off the front. Maybe they don't anyway, but that would just be because the G303 has a higher rear, which simulates the feel of a larger mouse (effectively pulling your fingers back), whereas the Astrum's hump is more towards the middle, which makes it feel smaller, and your fingers naturally rest in a more forward position.


Thank you for your reply bst.

https://imgur.com/a/yc5iO6P

I'm holding the g303 with the most comfort for my palm as pictured. I also do not palm my hands over the mouse entirely. I believe many FPS gamers, especially ppl who like to snipe like myself, use the tip of their index finger to press down the left mouse for fastest response time. Anyway hope your project is a roaring success and the smaller mouse molds get added in so I can make a purchase. My 2 yr old 303 could use a upgrade


----------



## Zakman

wein07 said:


> Thank you for your reply bst.
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/yc5iO6P
> 
> I'm holding the g303 with the most comfort for my palm as pictured. I also do not palm my hands over the mouse entirely. I believe many FPS gamers, especially ppl who like to snipe like myself, use the tip of their index finger to press down the left mouse for fastest response time. Anyway hope your project is a roaring success and the smaller mouse molds get added in so I can make a purchase. My 2 yr old 303 could use a upgrade


To be fair, your grip would still work with the Astrum since it has a lighter weight than the 303. The mouse looks big only because of the button overhang so judging by your grip your fingers would still rest on the clicks but more towards the middle instead of the front.

http://ninox.co/files/indiegogo/astrum/dimensions.png


----------



## bst

Yes, its fine really to use the claw grip with the Astrum. Heres a couple of pics I sent to someone on facebook earlier, who was asking the same thing:
https://snag.gy/H5lIMP.jpg
https://snag.gy/hdL7Px.jpg


----------



## ncck

This is something low priority but I was just thinking after release if there could somehow be an info page on the suggested sensor position from other popular mice, it could help people swap over who may be confused/not comfortable with such a feature?

For example since yours is already marked, you could just have a page that's just like number, then mouse sensor position it's copying

So someone coming from xyz mouse can be like - oh great I can just mimic my sensor position, idk if that sounds stupid just thinking of the general gamer who isn't familiar with such a thing


----------



## Ramla777

bst said:


> I can't say I notice much difference with the sensor performance, its hard to tell, because the shape of the mouse and sensor position affect how it feels.
> 
> Click latency seems to be really great though, it beats the Venator on the bounce test by 10-16ms consistently. I don't know *exactly* how much faster it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 10ms faster.


WAIT WHAT?

The Venator had a pretty nice click latency which shows up on the spreadsheet at 4.5ms slower than the ikari.
Even when I tested it myself I found the clicks latency was what I would consider the "Gold Standard". 



The fastest mouse on the entire spreadsheet here on overclock.net is the KTEC KTM-9500+ whic was about "-0.8ms".
Or about 0.8ms faster then the ikari.
According to what your saying this means the Astrum would have a click latency about 5ms faster then the fastest mouse released up to this point.
Is that even possible?
Is this just something achievable because of the optical switches?
So far I've always been fairly impressed with the click latency of your mice but this is quite a large jump.


----------



## pez

Nice to see the IndieGoGo still pretty much on par with meeting its' goal.


----------



## zestyy

Ordered the dilithium one because it'll clash the worst with my green mousepad


----------



## tacomn

How will this mouse be for fingertip claw (bent fingers but no palm touching)? Also how does configuring moving the sensor location work? Lastly would there be a possibility in the thumb type grooves like the deathadder?


----------



## gunit2004

Will click latency be adjustable in software?


----------



## thrillhaus

We should get the OP and title edited to announce that the Kickstarter is out. @Br3chtel


----------



## dulteX

If something is wrong with my astrum and it’s one of the special colored versions will I receive a normal colored version as a replacement? Not the type of person to send my mouse back over something minor but I’m curious.


----------



## Jovaye

dulteX said:


> If something is wrong with my astrum and it’s one of the special colored versions will I receive a normal colored version as a replacement? Not the type of person to send my mouse back over something minor but I’m curious.


He told me via reddit that he would have replace LE shells for warranty purposes.


----------



## wein07

bst said:


> Yes, its fine really to use the claw grip with the Astrum. Heres a couple of pics I sent to someone on facebook earlier, who was asking the same thing:
> https://snag.gy/H5lIMP.jpg
> https://snag.gy/hdL7Px.jpg


Thks for your reply bst.

No offence intended, but by just looking at your 1st picture, I can already tell the mice is way too behind your palm and it is either alrdy touching your palm or way too close to base of palm. When you play with fingertips/claw grip like me, you need the empty space between the mice backend and base of your palm when moving vertically downwards with your finger tips, instead of moving my arm.

For someone who mentioned the astrum's base is 10mm+ shorter than the stated 133mm. The g303's base is slightly less than 100mm  

Looking forward to your subsequent moulds bst, but pls don't wait too long. Your idea is likely gonna get copied by razer or logitech


----------



## a_ak57

To be a pedant, fingertip and claw aren't interchangeable terms; if you don't want any palm contact, then you don't want a claw grip which is what BST was demonstrating. Someone who wants fingertip would be likely better off with the Astrum S.


----------



## MattKelly

wein07 said:


> Thks for your reply bst.
> 
> No offence intended, but by just looking at your 1st picture, I can already tell the mice is way too behind your palm and it is either alrdy touching your palm or way too close to base of palm. When you play with fingertips/claw grip like me, you need the empty space between the mice backend and base of your palm when moving vertically downwards with your finger tips, instead of moving my arm.
> 
> For someone who mentioned the astrum's base is 10mm+ shorter than the stated 133mm. The g303's base is slightly less than 100mm
> 
> Looking forward to your subsequent moulds bst, but pls don't wait too long. Your idea is likely gonna get copied by razer or logitech





a_ak57 said:


> To be a pedant, fingertip and claw aren't interchangeable terms; if you don't want any palm contact, then you don't want a claw grip which is what BST was demonstrating. Someone who wants fingertip would be likely better off with the Astrum S.


Exactly. A claw grip controls the mouse with the force being distributed between fingertips and butt of the palm. A palm grip spreads this contact out and distributes it across a greater surface area of the palm. A fingertip grip detaches itself from the palm entirely and the mouse is contacted by 5 points (each of the fingertips) which allows empty space for the mouse to be moved vertically downward before hitting the butt of the palm. Users with ~19-20cm length hands will often find mice with bases as short as 100mm (G403, G Pro, MasterMouse S, etc.) to still be long enough for contact at the butt of the palm (although a lot of this will depend on height / placement of the hump of course).


----------



## wein07

Thanks for the heads up guys.

I just played around with my old mice, the Zowie FK is about as long as I like, and it is around 120.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

wein07 said:


> Thanks for the heads up guys.
> 
> I just played around with my old mice, the Zowie FK is about as long as I like, and it is around 120.


My FK2 is exactly 120 mm.


----------



## dulteX

Jovaye said:


> He told me via reddit that he would have replace LE shells for warranty purposes.


Ah, thanks for that confirmation. I bought a rubberized version so it would suck to receive a matte version as a replacement.


----------



## cdcd

MattKelly said:


> Exactly. A claw grip controls the mouse with the force being distributed between fingertips and butt of the palm. A palm grip spreads this contact out and distributes it across a greater surface area of the palm. A fingertip grip detaches itself from the palm entirely and the mouse is contacted by 5 points (each of the fingertips) which allows empty space for the mouse to be moved vertically downward before hitting the butt of the palm. Users with ~19-20cm length hands will often find mice with bases as short as 100mm (G403, G Pro, MasterMouse S, etc.) to still be long enough for contact at the butt of the palm (although a lot of this will depend on height / placement of the hump of course).



I'd say there's a different kind of claw grip as well which works like the claw grip you've described except for the butt of the palm not having any contact. Instead it's the knucke area of the palm which is touching the mouse. This grip is probably one of if not the most flexible grip (at least I haven't found a mouse so far that doesn't work with it).


----------



## Menthalion

cdcd said:


> I'd say there's a different kind of claw grip as well which works like the claw grip you've described except for the butt of the palm not having any contact. Instead it's the knucke area of the palm which is touching the mouse. This grip is probably one of if not the most flexible grip (at least I haven't found a mouse so far that doesn't work with it).


Could you post a pic because I've no idea what grip you mean, since my palm is apparently lacking a knuck(l)e area.


----------



## cdcd

Menthalion said:


> Could you post a pic because I've no idea what grip you mean, since my palm is apparently lacking a knuck(l)e area.


I'm talking about the area where the MCP joints sit:


----------



## pez

To add to the confusion, I held the G403/G703 in that type of claw grip. Where your ring and pinky finger meet your hand/palm, those were the knuckles I always sat my mouse under.

I didn't actually use my fingertips to ever control the mouse vertically in the way mentioned except for flicking. I.e. flicking up, left and right...never to look down or pull the mouse towards me. Ultimately it was because it's easier to tap shoot for me with a claw grip style.


----------



## invena

Backed the kickstarter, hoping this can replace my G303....have never found that sweet spot for replacement.


----------



## DazzaInOz

67% of funds raised in 5 days! Everybody buy another one for their Dad or Grandma, dog, door stop, hood ornament, butt plug, whatever GO GO GO


----------



## empyr

DazzaInOz said:


> 67% of funds raised in 5 days! Everybody buy another one for their Dad or Grandma, dog, door stop, hood ornament, butt plug, whatever GO GO GO



:thumb:


----------



## Lvca

Hello everyone!

The mouse looks very tempting, and I've been wondering, would it be possible to obtain a SS Rival 300-like shape on this mouse?, can you combine alpha and beta sides?


----------



## chort

Lvca said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> The mouse looks very tempting, and I've been wondering, would it be possible to obtain a SS Rival 300-like shape on this mouse?, can you combine alpha and beta sides?


can't combine the alpha and beta shapes because of the top cover, but you can 3d print any shape that would fit the mouse.


----------



## iBerggman

Lvca said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> The mouse looks very tempting, and I've been wondering, would it be possible to obtain a SS Rival 300-like shape on this mouse?, can you combine alpha and beta sides?


Beta Ergonomic (IE or XE) would probably be the closest match, it's a bit hard to tell by comparing pictures but it looks like the Rival 300 might have a bit more of a indent on the left side where the thumb goes, that as well as some outwards slope at the top which the Astrum doesn't have.


----------



## popups

Are people buying this to replace the WMO?

The shape doesn't seem to be a modern version of the WMO. More like the IMO.

is there any pictures showing the final product compared to the WMO, Diamondback and EC?


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

popups said:


> Are people buying this to replace the WMO?
> 
> The shape doesn't seem to be a modern version of the WMO. More like the IMO.
> 
> is there any pictures showing the final product compared to the WMO, Diamondback and EC?


Maybe a mix of both?

Shape 2 (Beta): 133/124 (L) x 67.5 (W) x 39.6 (H) mm
Shape WMO: 124 (L) x 66.6 (W) x 39.6 (H) mm
Shape IMO: 127 (L) x 68.58 (W) x 38.1 (H) mm


----------



## iBerggman

Well I don't know about others but I'm buying it because it seems to fix the problems I have with most other mice shapes I've tried. The main ones being not enough length which makes my fingers hang over the edge of the buttons as well unnecessary grooves / weird outward curves at the sides that force your thumb and ring finger into certain positions. Sharp edges at the front right or not enough space at the front right corner is another common problem for me, both of which seem to be a lot better on the Astrum for me. 

I guess I don't really understand the draw to clones of shapes like the Intellimouse. I mean to me it seems it would be easier to swap a 3360 into whatever shape it is you like instead of trying to find a clone, but as I said so far I haven't found a mouse I really like so I suppose I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to that.


----------



## cdcd

bst, do you already know which sensor position the Astrum will be shipped with (i.e. out of the box)?


----------



## Zakman

popups said:


> Are people buying this to replace the WMO?
> 
> The shape doesn't seem to be a modern version of the WMO. More like the IMO.
> 
> is there any pictures showing the final product compared to the WMO, Diamondback and EC?


I think the Beta XX is meant to be similar to the WMO and the Beta IE is similar to the IMO.

http://ninox.co/files/indiegogo/astrum/photos/shapes.jpg


----------



## bst

cdcd said:


> bst, do you already know which sensor position the Astrum will be shipped with (i.e. out of the box)?


I was just going to let it be random, so you set it when you get it.



Zakman said:


> I think the Beta XX is meant to be similar to the WMO and the Beta IE is similar to the IMO.
> 
> http://ninox.co/files/indiegogo/astrum/photos/shapes.jpg


Yes, Beta XX is more like a WMO than an IMO, and Beta IE is just that same shape with a rest on the right, its not much like the IMO though, it feels more like an IE3 - not exactly the same, but its more in that direction.


----------



## ewiggle

bst said:


> I was just going to let it be random, so you set it when you get it.


That might be giving users too much choice. We like paths of least resistance, choices stress us out. Might be worth having a default. (that said, I'm pushing mine up as far as it can go)

ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue


----------



## Zakman

ewiggle said:


> That might be giving users too much choice. We like paths of least resistance, choices stress us out. Might be worth having a default. (that said, I'm pushing mine up as far as it can go)
> 
> ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue


Aye, definitely agree with this.

Bst, keep the sensor bang on in the middle by default and then allow people to adjust from there.


----------



## bst

I could probably put it at the very front or rear. Generally for the production line you want something easy, that can't be messed up, so sliding the sensor back all the way is pretty easy, thats probably what they'd end up doing if I let them decide anyway, they'd choose the easiest, least time consuming way. If I go with the middle, then I doubt its going to be exactly the same position for every mouse.


----------



## dlano

I've made two orders, one early on and one just now, would they be sent out together or will they be sent out in batches according to order number?


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I could probably put it at the very front or rear. Generally for the production line you want something easy, that can't be messed up, so sliding the sensor back all the way is pretty easy, thats probably what they'd end up doing if I let them decide anyway, they'd choose the easiest, least time consuming way. If I go with the middle, then I doubt its going to be exactly the same position for every mouse.


As long as there's an easy way of figuring out where the sensor position is and where exactly the middle is (since I'm assuming the vast majority of users would want a centered position) then it shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## bst

dlano said:


> I've made two orders, one early on and one just now, would they be sent out together or will they be sent out in batches according to order number?


The shipping company will most likely ship things out separately, just taking each order as it comes. It should go out at the same time though.


----------



## pez

71% backed so far...this is exciting!


----------



## lainx

Looks promising! I sincerely hope it gets funded, 'cause i've been putting off getting a new mouse even though my G Pro are just about to give up.

Kinda bummed that the Astrum S werent available, but expected of course. I can just see myself obsess about the sensor positioning trying to find the perfect spot..
Looking forward to getting it!
Maybe later you could post some pictures comparing the Alpha shape to a razer diamondback?


----------



## a_ak57

Putting the sensor either in the front or back does sound easier as far as logistics go, but I agree with the thought that it will cause user indecisiveness since most of us have no real idea of what we're doing, and there will definitely be people just using it in the stock position because they don't care about the adjustable sensor selling point and only want the shapes/modularity (especially when you put these in storefronts).


----------



## chort

lainx said:


> Looks promising! I sincerely hope it gets funded, 'cause i've been putting off getting a new mouse even though my G Pro are just about to give up.
> 
> Kinda bummed that the Astrum S werent available, but expected of course. I can just see myself obsess about the sensor positioning trying to find the perfect spot..
> Looking forward to getting it!
> Maybe later you could post some pictures comparing the Alpha shape to a razer diamondback?


alpha is more straight while the diamondback is sloping inwards on the bottom, straight sides are probably better for grip and aim.


----------



## cdcd

I suppose that the front sensor position is more agreeable for most people than the back position, hence I'd advocate the former.


----------



## popups

Would be nice if there was an mark that shows where the sensor needs to be for the mouse to be balanced. I think people are more worried about having a balanced mouse in their hand than sensor position. Using a sticker for that mark wouldn't be a good idea; it should be on the mold.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

How difficult would it be to open up the Astrum to replace the cable?


----------



## Lvca

chort said:


> can't combine the alpha and beta shapes because of the top cover, but you can 3d print any shape that would fit the mouse.





iBerggman said:


> Beta Ergonomic (IE or XE) would probably be the closest match, it's a bit hard to tell by comparing pictures but it looks like the Rival 300 might have a bit more of a indent on the left side where the thumb goes, that as well as some outwards slope at the top which the Astrum doesn't have.



Thank you both for your responses


----------



## Zakman

Hoping for 80% raised by tonight then have it all raised by next weekend. Can't wait for November/December


----------



## bst

lainx said:


> Maybe later you could post some pictures comparing the Alpha shape to a razer diamondback?


I could, you'll have to forgive my diamondback though, its about 18 years old and the rubber on the buttons turned into sticky slush, so I've covered it with a tissue.. lol... it looks absolutely awful  To be honest its more like an Aurora or G100 than it is a Diamondback, because the diamondback has quite a low rear, the Aurora kind of curves down at more of a steep angle at the back.



cdcd said:


> I suppose that the front sensor position is more agreeable for most people than the back position, hence I'd advocate the former.


Actually I think I can just set it to the middle, I gave it some thought and I think it'd be easy to make something they can stick into the slider-hole, will stop it from going back too far, then it will always be set to the right position. I'll see what they think about it though. You're probably right that the front is a good starting point, if my idea doesn't work for some reason.




Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> How difficult would it be to open up the Astrum to replace the cable?


Pretty similar to a lot of mice really, disconnect the cable first (which is easy since its staring you in the face when you open the rear cover), then remove two screws under the front mouse foot (there wasn't any way to make them exposed, unfortunately). Then you move the top of the mouse over a bit, so you can get access to the PCB screws, then unscrew the PCB to release the cable from underneath it (the PCB locking it down is just on one side, its not one large PCB covering the whole base). Then its just the reverse of that to install the new cable. It shouldn't take very long to do, I don't think theres anything fiddly about it.



Zakman said:


> Hoping for 80% raised by tonight then have it all raised by next weekend. Can't wait for November/December


I think it might reach about 78%, it seems to go up about 4% a day at the moment. But yeah it looks like it should be funded pretty soon


----------



## Zakman

@bst

Could you do a video of how the sensor adjustment works?


----------



## popups

Zakman said:


> @bst
> 
> Could you do a video of how the sensor adjustment works?


Loosen two screws and slide.


----------



## Avalar

Made a thread on HF to promote the Astrum. Hasn't got much attention yet, but anything to support the cause! ;P


----------



## xmr1

Every little bit will help right now. Feels like it's come to a crawl the last few days. I'll be much more comfortable when it's in the 90% range.


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> Made a thread on HF to promote the Astrum. Hasn't got much attention yet, but anything to support the cause! ;P


Thanks mate


----------



## James N

xmr1 said:


> Every little bit will help right now. Feels like it's come to a crawl the last few days. I'll be much more comfortable when it's in the 90% range.


Would have probably been funded already, if Paypal was an option.


----------



## Ukkooh

James N said:


> Would have probably been funded already, if Paypal was an option.


How so? Don't know about other countries but in Finland almost everyone gets a visa electron for their first card which counts as a credit card for sites such as these. Is it really that different elsewhere?


----------



## bst

Paypal is an absolute nightmare, you can't do pre-orders of any kind on it. It just doesn't fit their model of payment protection and so on. If I had accepted paypal, then not long from now, the funds would be frozen for 6+ months (more like a year though), while they gradually release funds bit by bit, as long as you can prove you sent the items ordered (which, obviously you can't, if they're pre-ordered). They would also disallow any payment disputes, no refunds, nothing, which doesn't help. I had it with the Aurora and wish I had never used them.

Paypal is perfectly fine for purchases of items where you get a tracking number and the item is delivered within a week, or sending a small amount to a friend. Much more than that, is asking for trouble, in my experience. Its a shame, but unfortunately, its just how it is :/


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Paypal is an absolute nightmare, you can't do pre-orders of any kind on it. It just doesn't fit their model of payment protection and so on. If I had accepted paypal, then not long from now, the funds would be frozen for 6+ months (more like a year though), while they gradually release funds bit by bit, as long as you can prove you sent the items ordered (which, obviously you can't, if they're pre-ordered). They would also disallow any payment disputes, no refunds, nothing, which doesn't help. I had it with the Aurora and wish I had never used them.
> 
> Paypal is perfectly fine for purchases of items where you get a tracking number and the item is delivered within a week, or sending a small amount to a friend. Much more than that, is asking for trouble, in my experience. Its a shame, but unfortunately, its just how it is :/


How bout crypto? Lots of people without credit/debit cards, or even bank accounts, have some.


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> How bout crypto? Lots of people without credit/debit cards, or even bank accounts, have some.


Yeah, its a good idea. I could set up a woocommerce store, probably take btc/ltc/eth, and bank transfer. You'd just order it and then send the payment to the relevant address, and I'd mark your order as paid and add your crypto address. I'm pretty experienced with it so it wouldn't be a problem to set it up in a couple of days time. Anyone interested in that?


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> Yeah, its a good idea. I could set up a woocommerce store, probably take btc/ltc/eth, and bank transfer. You'd just order it and then send the payment to the relevant address, and I'd mark your order as paid and add your crypto address. I'm pretty experienced with it so it wouldn't be a problem to set it up in a couple of days time. Anyone interested in that?


You might be better off asking via Reddit/Youtube/Facebook since I'm assuming there aren't going to be many here that follow this thread, want to commit money and don't have a debit/credit card.


----------



## Avalar

Gonna get another Astrum later to help out some more. That makes four! 😄

Been eyeballing Plutonium...


----------



## Zakman

@bst

You might have to send RJN (or any other big name mouse reviewer on Youtube) that prototype to tick us over the finish line...


----------



## iBerggman

He may already have done so:

"I probably will send him a prototype, he won't get it for a while, but it'll be good for him to have it near the end, just in case the project needs a last minute boost. The only problem with the prototypes is they're made from a heavier material, and are a lot more delicate, with less accuracy in the dimensions than an injection molded mouse, so they're not something that can be analysed in every detail, but they're a good preview as long as the limitations are understood."


----------



## empyr

It's been slowing down more and more, still plenty of days to go however. Hope we will cross the finish line eventually!


----------



## DazzaInOz

Maybe time to pull out some nifty slogans like 

'End games after end games? Game changers after game changers? Forget the Sunset or the stars...shoot for glory and immortality with the Astrum!'

Maybe pay s1mple to put his signature on it


----------



## Klopfer

as british , better give it to owen ( smooya from BIG ) ...


----------



## Avalar

Legit slogan:

"The Astrum is better than every other gaming mouse available.

Prove me wrong."


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

What sensor would be in the wireless version?

If only Logitech licensed there HERO sensor...


----------



## ov3rmind

0mega1Spawn said:


> What sensor would be in the wireless version?
> 
> If only Logitech licensed there HERO sensor...


I think 3360 is better than HERO for now. I have g305 and sometimes it has spin out problem. So for now I think 3360 is better choice.


----------



## herbal718

Backed and putting word out, good luck.


----------



## bst

herbal718 said:


> Backed and putting word out, good luck.


Thanks! 



ov3rmind said:


> I think 3360 is better than HERO for now. I have g305 and sometimes it has spin out problem. So for now I think 3360 is better choice.


Yeah, you'd have to recharge the battery more often with the 3360, but the performance would be good.


----------



## gipetto

@bst I understand there will be a few signed firmwares to choose from, for left and right handed button mappings etc, without using os software. Currently I just flash my mouse whenever I want to change dpi or polling rate. 

That would require an exponential increase in number of signed firmwares on the site which would be confusing. For example, 4 polling rates by 20 dpi settings x 2 button maps x 2 reversed scroll wheel = 320 possible firmwares
Given that it would be annoying to set dpi at each bootup, is there provision to write variable settings to non volatile memory by the user without updating the firmware?


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> @bst I understand there will be a few signed firmwares to choose from, for left and right handed button mappings etc, without using os software. Currently I just flash my mouse whenever I want to change dpi or polling rate.
> 
> That would require an exponential increase in number of signed firmwares on the site which would be confusing. For example, 4 polling rates by 20 dpi settings x 2 button maps x 2 reversed scroll wheel = 320 possible firmwares
> Given that it would be annoying to set dpi at each bootup, is there provision to write variable settings to non volatile memory by the user without updating the firmware?


Yeah, it just uses the EEPROM, like the Venator. No need for all those firmwares. You don't really want to be flash updating for every setting, it'll wear out the flash memory eventually.

The Astrum has 3 profiles, and you can change settings for each one, like DPI, polling rate, LED colour, and so on, without needing any software. You just hold down the DPI button when you're in the profile you want to change settings for, and for example, press the RMB to increase the profile's DPI (google "ninox venator user manual" to see how the venator worked, it'll be similar on the Astrum).

When you plug in the mouse, you can choose 500hz or 1000hz by holding down the LMB or the RMB. If you want to switch to left or right handed mode, you hold down either the left or right side buttons. It does mean putting the side buttons on to do that, if you didn't want to use them, but it only has to be done once.

I think a lot of people will be happy enough with the hardware options tbh, but the software is there for people who want more.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

ov3rmind said:


> I think 3360 is better than HERO for now. I have g305 and sometimes it has spin out problem. So for now I think 3360 is better choice.


My G305 works flawlessly. I can't tell any difference between it and the 3360.
I wonder why some people's HERO sensor spins out?

Did you check if there's dust and clean the sensor I've gotten my G203 and even G900 sensor to spin out (Well, more like constantly stop tracking (For the G900)).


----------



## qsxcv

Avalar said:


> Legit slogan:
> 
> "The Astrum is better than every other gaming mouse available.
> 
> Prove me wrong."


well we know nothing about its eventual build quality and durability...


----------



## nyshak

Hm, progress on funding is <1% a day now. Sitting at 79% and only 21 days to go this seems to be over before it began 
I backed it ofc, but I won't order more than 2 sry.


----------



## xmr1

nyshak said:


> Hm, progress on funding is <1% a day now. Sitting at 79% and only 21 days to go this seems to be over before it began
> I backed it ofc, but I won't order more than 2 sry.


Yeah I'm just hoping that if we get over 90% with a few days left that will inspire people to make that final push. But I don't know if bst has anything else planned to get more exposure or help convince some people that may be on the fence.


----------



## Ickz

Neat concept and hopefully it gets funded for those that want it - too bad it didn't happen a year or two ago. Personally, I'll never use a wired mouse again since we're now able to get mice that are essentially identical to wired and are decently low weight - and it's only going to get better every release.


----------



## chort

sending it out to mouse reviewers/famous fps players will probably push it over the limit before the funding faze ends


----------



## gipetto

@bst there's an interesting thread here, the ceo of razer is considering producing a left handed mmo mouse below cost, and releasing the stl of the naga for 3d printing. I know it's surely too late to change designs but supposing a left handed mmo shell was made compatible with the astrum, could you have a spare serial header to interface the keypad with? https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterra...help_a_disabled_gamer_bring_back_the/e1zggt7/
If you could pull it off as an option it might make the astrum solvent.


----------



## empyr

chort said:


> sending it out to mouse reviewers/famous fps players will probably push it over the limit before the funding faze ends


 bst said it's very limited interms of how many prototypes he has (bst said they're expensive if i recall correctly) and they aren't close to the final product.

Anyway, bst should be sending one to RJN so that should help a bit (?), not sure if he's sending one out to anybody else.


----------



## nyshak

@bst In case this gets funded maybe it would be a good idea to take a look at the cable of the new FM Ultralight Phantom? Looks to be really good. Maybe not as good as a paracord, but close.


----------



## iBerggman

nyshak said:


> @bst In case this gets funded maybe it would be a good idea to take a look at the cable of the new FM Ultralight Phantom? Looks to be really good. Maybe not as good as a paracord, but close.



He's aware of it, both the Venator/Astrum and Finalmouse are being manufactured by Motospeed after all.


----------



## bst

nyshak said:


> @bst In case this gets funded maybe it would be a good idea to take a look at the cable of the new FM Ultralight Phantom? Looks to be really good. Maybe not as good as a paracord, but close.


Theres a a good chance that its just the same unshielded braided cable that I've already talked about on here (I have one). If you ask for a more flexible cable, that's the one motospeed shows you. But the people who show you don't have a clue about FCC regulations, so you have to be careful (the fines for breaking the regulations can be very nasty, the could bankrupt you).

I've put EM filters on the Astrum PCB to try and let the unshielded cable pass FCC certification. Maybe it passes without the filters though. Either way, I have to get it tested. I'll be testing a few, and going with the most flexible one that passes.

Maybe FM put it through the test and it passed, then again, maybe they didn't even test it. I don't know. I have to go through my own process with it. Of course I'll let you all know what the outcome is as soon as I know.

My feeling is this: Either its good news, and you can pass the certification without a shield, or FM just didn't get certification. If that's the case, I won't be following them, sorry. I mean... damn, that would be so ballsy of them, even I could report them and cause them a load of trouble, let alone some of the bigger companies who'd find it even easier. And likewise, if I done it, I would expect the same. So, hope you understand the risks involved with the cable!


----------



## Avalar

So, how do we get the word out, guys! Been posting on forums, telling my friends, even advertising in-game lol. Gonna be getting one or two more when I get paid. It’s gotta happen!


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> So, how do we get the word out, guys! Been posting on forums, telling my friends, even advertising in-game lol. Gonna be getting one or two more when I get paid. It’s gotta happen!


It is going to happen 

We've got almost 3 weeks left, and only 17% to go, I really think it'll be enough time, it just needs about $600 a day.

At the moment I'm putting some final touches to the mice, and will be making some new prototypes. If I really need to, I can extend the deadline and send some of them out to people like RJN. I kind of hope I won't have to, but the option is there if I really need it. But I am working on things with the assumption it'll be funded, so if it is, then there won't be any wasted time.

Also, right now I'm finishing up a way for people to pay by crypto currency or bank transfer, all I'm doing right now is finishing off the shipping rules and discount rules, and it'll be done. So hopefully that'll help people who couldn't pay by credit card: https://snag.gy/TztSky.jpg


----------



## nyshak

bst said:


> My feeling is this: Either its good news, and you can pass the certification without a shield, or FM just didn't get certification. If that's the case, I won't be following them, sorry. I mean... damn, that would be so ballsy of them, even I could report them and cause them a load of trouble, let alone some of the bigger companies who'd find it even easier. And likewise, if I done it, I would expect the same. So, hope you understand the risks involved with the cable!


No, of course do it the right way. I am assuming FM did pass the tests, because everything else would basically be suicidal. You don't have to risk this in my book anyway, I can always paracord it. But if a paracord wasn't really needed, with certification to boot, it would be nice. So worth a try.


----------



## ryan92084

I think the proposed smaller version would fit me better tbh but jumped in anyway because I'll never know unless I have both  . Generally these crowd funding campaigns have a bit of a surge at the end from all the procrastinators.


----------



## RaleighStClair

Backed, got 2.


----------



## muso

Never backed anything in my life untill now! 

i really like the look of the clicks and how they're seemingly flatter than usual.

Being left handed means i can actually make a left handed mouse! 

Plus the low latency firmware and all the other features it seems like a good investment!

Good luck.


----------



## empyr

Soon less than 10k to go!


----------



## chort

are the mouse feet going to be hotline compeition edition?


----------



## Avalar

Got another one! Now I’ve got a bunch of colors _and_ all the shell materials covered. ^-^

Matte Blue
Black Knight
Rubber
Glossy Purple


----------



## empyr

Avalar said:


> Got another one! Now I’ve got a bunch of colors _and_ all the shell materials covered. ^-^
> 
> Matte Blue
> Black Knight
> Rubber
> Glossy Purple



:thumb:


----------



## charlieputh

@bst whats the weight gonna be like for the shape which is around final mouse ultralight has going from 71g to anything much heavier is gonna be annoying XD


----------



## shatterboxd3

Just go use a g502 for half an hour and come back to the astrum haha.


----------



## hisXLNC

im wondering about the weight as well. under 80g is vague? is it 75, 78, 73.. 79.9 is also under 80g


----------



## Avalar

charlieputh said:


> @bst whats the weight gonna be like for the shape which is around final mouse ultralight has going from 71g to anything much heavier is gonna be annoying XD


Every Astrum shape is as tall as the Ultralight, each is longer than the Ultralight (but that's just button overhang), and the Beta and Beta IE shapes are wider than the Ultralight. All combinations will be less than 80g, though, so you probably wouldn't notice a big difference. I suppose if you really wanted to, you could drill holes in the modular top covers and sides, too. Or just wait until the Astrum S. ;P


----------



## Avalar

hisXLNC said:


> im wondering about the weight as well. under 80g is vague? is it 75, 78, 73.. 79.9 is also under 80g


bst doesn't have an exact number because the prototypes tested so far have unnecessary wires and whatnot.


----------



## Ukkooh

Avalar said:


> bst doesn't have an exact number because the prototypes tested so far have unnecessary wires and whatnot.


The plastic is going to be different in the final product too, if I've understood correctly.


----------



## charlieputh

Avalar said:


> Every Astrum shape is as tall as the Ultralight, each is longer than the Ultralight (but that's just button overhang), and the Beta and Beta IE shapes are wider than the Ultralight. All combinations will be less than 80g, though, so you probably wouldn't notice a big difference. I suppose if you really wanted to, you could drill holes in the modular top covers and sides, too. Or just wait until the Astrum S. ;P


if if i have big hands like around 21 ish cause the ultralight size is great for my hand


----------



## bst

I can't be too precise about the weight yet, but the goal for the beta shape is about 75g.

We're actually remaking the design of the mouse right now, because it went through so many changes, the CAD file is too complicated to add all the draft angles it needs for tooling (its not a big deal, the hardest thing was getting it all to work, but remaking it is just copying what has already been figured out). So that is more opportunity to shave a few more grams off (maybe... 2 grams... lol). The shell will also look smoother. But it really won't be much longer before I know the final weights, maybe 2 weeks away.


----------



## popups

Would have been cool if you made it so the side buttons could be set in two different heights. That way if you wanted to make a different side panel you would have the choice to have the side buttons high up on the mouse or just above your thumb like a Kana.

75g is a realistic weight for a medium sized mouse with side buttons. The G100s being ~66g without side buttons. If the mouse was a typical design it could easily be 75g.


----------



## bst

popups said:


> Would have been cool if you made it so the side buttons could be set in two different heights. That way if you wanted to make a different side panel you would have the choice to have the side buttons high up on the mouse or just above your thumb like a Kana.
> 
> 75g is a realistic weight for a medium sized mouse with side buttons. The G100s being ~66g without side buttons. If the mouse was a typical design it could easily be 75g.


You could probably still do that if you 3D printed new ones (with their side panels to match), you'd just have to put the plunger at the top of them, maybe make a little L shaped bit if they're really low.

I am actually lowering the side buttons a little bit in the remake, they were slightly high, by about 2mm or so. They didn't really need to be that high. Also they're moving 2mm to the rear, since it just works better with more grip styles. It wasn't really a huge deal, since it was easy to get used to, but they work better in the new position.


----------



## Avalar

popups gave me another idea. What if you could 3D print the side buttons? I know I dislike it when mice have really recessed buttons. The G502 is an example of a mouse with _really_ nice side buttons that stick out. I just don't like it when the tip of my thumb touches the side of the mouse; it makes the side buttons feel cheap somehow.


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> popups gave me another idea. What if you could 3D print the side buttons? I know I dislike it when mice have really recessed buttons. The G502 is an example of a mouse with _really_ nice side buttons that stick out. I just don't like it when the tip of my thumb touches the side of the mouse; it makes the side buttons feel cheap somehow.


Yeah, you can print the side buttons, its probably the easiest thing you could modify  Although, the side buttons on the Astrum aren't recessed, they stick out about 1mm, and they don't sink into the shell when you press them. I think maybe on some of the pics and in the video the side buttons are recessed a bit, but they won't be like that, they're more like how you see them in the colours list.


----------



## DazzaInOz

bst said:


> I can't be too precise about the weight yet, but the goal for the beta shape is about 75g.
> 
> We're actually remaking the design of the mouse right now, because it went through so many changes, the CAD file is too complicated to add all the draft angles it needs for tooling (its not a big deal, the hardest thing was getting it all to work, but remaking it is just copying what has already been figured out). So that is more opportunity to shave a few more grams off (maybe... 2 grams... lol). The shell will also look smoother. But it really won't be much longer before I know the final weights, maybe 2 weeks away.


Interested in how your going to get to 75g with such a medium/large mouse without swiss cheese holes?! Hope the plastic is not going to be too thin like the Revel because it makes the clicks sound really hollow and cheap  That's really getting deep into nitpicking though! But reassuring and nice to have a solid sounding as well as feeling mouse.

Did you make a decision on comfort grooves in the main buttons when redrafting? I know everyone's divided on that. I prefer them but others don't. Maybe make them really subtle like on Revenger S and Minos x5. 



bst said:


> I am actually lowering the side buttons a little bit in the remake, they were slightly high, by about 2mm or so. They didn't really need to be that high. Also they're moving 2mm to the rear, since it just works better with more grip styles. It wasn't really a huge deal, since it was easy to get used to, but they work better in the new position.


Sounds perfect. I thought they looked a bit high on the photos. and having them a little further back is good for us claw grippers with bent thumbs!


----------



## chort

what do you know about the mousefeet that would be placed on the astrum?


----------



## badben25

Yo bst, can you tell me what the price of the Astrum will be once it comes out? Or is this some limited run model only available to campaign backers?

Also, can you please consider releasing the Aurora without the button delay issue? I didn't initially care about it and the rest of the mouse was great for me but the delay actually started affecting me in-game, and that was the only thing that let me down about that mouse. It might as well have no other improvements, just a fix for that lmb+rmb 50ms issue. I tried the Venator but my sweaty hands don't work with that dotted pattern on the sides at all.


----------



## gipetto

@bst could you offer a developer version of the astrum that can run from diy code? For instance you could have the tournament version with a red pcb and the developer version with a blue pcb. It would be easy to check pcb colour by removing the rear panel before tournaments.


----------



## bst

chort said:


> what do you know about the mousefeet that would be placed on the astrum?


They're the same ones as the Venator, just a different shape. They're Hotline Games Performance feet, 0.6mm thick.



badben25 said:


> Yo bst, can you tell me what the price of the Astrum will be once it comes out? Or is this some limited run model only available to campaign backers?


The white and black Astrums are the retail versions, and their MSRP is $69. The other colours and coatings won't be available.



badben25 said:


> Also, can you please consider releasing the Aurora without the button delay issue? I didn't initially care about it and the rest of the mouse was great for me but the delay actually started affecting me in-game, and that was the only thing that let me down about that mouse. It might as well have no other improvements, just a fix for that lmb+rmb 50ms issue. I tried the Venator but my sweaty hands don't work with that dotted pattern on the sides at all.


Sorry, the Aurora is discontinued, along with the sensor it uses. The Astrum has an Aurora-like shape you can use though.



gipetto said:


> @bst could you offer a developer version of the astrum that can run from diy code? For instance you could have the tournament version with a red pcb and the developer version with a blue pcb. It would be easy to check pcb colour by removing the rear panel before tournaments.


You could quite easily use a teensy if you wanted to make your own version, since it uses the same MCU, so I'm not going to make a development version, it just gets too complicated. You can do quite a bit with it really, since the buttons/scroll PCBs and sensor PCB is separate to the MCU PCB.


----------



## Zakman

@bst

Could you post some comparison pictures of the Beta IE and IME 3.0? And if possible, Beta IX and WMO?


----------



## pez

Avalar said:


> popups gave me another idea. What if you could 3D print the side buttons? I know I dislike it when mice have really recessed buttons. The G502 is an example of a mouse with _really_ nice side buttons that stick out. I just don't like it when the tip of my thumb touches the side of the mouse; it makes the side buttons feel cheap somehow.


You grip your mouse and lift the weight of it solely by the side buttons? I have my G502 beside me at work and I kinda see how that could work, but I can't imagine being able to do that on many other mice. Definitely not the G305 that I have here either.


----------



## Avalar

pez said:


> You grip your mouse and lift the weight of it solely by the side buttons? I have my G502 beside me at work and I kinda see how that could work, but I can't imagine being able to do that on many other mice. Definitely not the G305 that I have here either.


Huh?

Oh, maybe I should have explained better. I don't like it when my thumb touches the side of the mouse _while pushing the side buttons_. Examples of mice where that occur would be the G305, Sensei 310, etc. Doesn't occur with the G502, and so I think the side buttons are much nicer in that regard.


----------



## muso

I mean... i don't wanna be that guy but how hard would it be to machine holes in it like the ultralight... that could get a few sales people would froth it?


----------



## kr0w

bst said:


> Paypal is an absolute nightmare, you can't do pre-orders of any kind on it. It just doesn't fit their model of payment protection and so on. If I had accepted paypal, then not long from now, the funds would be frozen for 6+ months (more like a year though), while they gradually release funds bit by bit, as long as you can prove you sent the items ordered (which, obviously you can't, if they're pre-ordered). They would also disallow any payment disputes, no refunds, nothing, which doesn't help. I had it with the Aurora and wish I had never used them.
> 
> Paypal is perfectly fine for purchases of items where you get a tracking number and the item is delivered within a week, or sending a small amount to a friend. Much more than that, is asking for trouble, in my experience. Its a shame, but unfortunately, its just how it is :/


Would Amazon gift card be an option? I already backed a Black Knight edition with CC, but I still have over $200 in gift cards from Amazon that I've been looking for reasons on spending


----------



## Avalar

kr0w said:


> Would Amazon gift card be an option? I already backed a Black Knight edition with CC, but I still have over $200 in gift cards from Amazon that I've been looking for reasons on spending


If you want, I could send $50-$75 your way for however many Amazon cards you have that total that amount in return.


----------



## kr0w

Avalar said:


> If you want, I could send $50-$75 your way for however many Amazon cards you have that total that amount in return.


Really appreciate the offer, but I've attached a screenshot of Amazon's fine print and apparently the gift funds cannot be transferred


----------



## empyr

@*bst* Are you still planning on sending that prototype out to RJN? 

Also, I think you may have answered this previously on here, i tried to find it but i failed (I suppose i didn't look hard enough).
How tricky will it be to change the mouse cable? Currently digging the idea of getting matching colored cables for each mouse to make them even more unique.


----------



## xmr1

@bst So do the kickstarter exclusive color options go away once we reach 100% funding or is it at a later point?


----------



## gipetto

@bst I saw a pic of the wheel encoder the astrum will use and thought it was similar in size to the ec10e. Could you adapt the astrum pcb slightly so that it would be compatible with the ec10e. The pic shows what I mean, reverse the encoder 180 degrees and the side tabs will slot in, then 3 traces can be made between the two different pinouts.


----------



## bst

muso said:


> I mean... i don't wanna be that guy but how hard would it be to machine holes in it like the ultralight... that could get a few sales people would froth it?


Not that easy, at least, to make it look good. I guess I could 3D print some. But tbh it doesn't really save much weight anyway, like 2g or something.



empyr said:


> @*bst* Are you still planning on sending that prototype out to RJN?
> 
> Also, I think you may have answered this previously on here, i tried to find it but i failed (I suppose i didn't look hard enough).
> How tricky will it be to change the mouse cable? Currently digging the idea of getting matching colored cables for each mouse to make them even more unique.


I will send him one, but I want it to be as close to final as possible. It might happen afterwards during "In Demand", where you can still buy the mouse after the crowd fund. It depends how it goes over the next few days though.

I talked about the cable in this post: https://www.overclock.net/forum/27525780-post1081.html



xmr1 said:


> @bst So do the kickstarter exclusive color options go away once we reach 100% funding or is it at a later point?


They go away when In Demand is finished, which will run for about 1-2 months after the crowd fund. Since after the crowd fund finishes, the tooling will be being made, I can still sell them, but they'll stop being sold when I have to order all the components (which depends on the lead times).



gipetto said:


> @bst I saw a pic of the wheel encoder the astrum will use and thought it was similar in size to the ec10e. Could you adapt the astrum pcb slightly so that it would be compatible with the ec10e. The pic shows what I mean, reverse the encoder 180 degrees and the side tabs will slot in, then 3 traces can be made between the two different pinouts.


I'm not going to do that, I'd rather just sell PCBs for mechanical scroll wheels and switches, and offer a custom FW for them. I just think its better that way.


----------



## Avalar

Might get that last 12% of you bring those discounts back. ;0


----------



## hammelgammler

I just bought 5 Astrum (4x Luna, 1x Glossy Purple). I thought I can always get the normal matte version later, so I better stock up on Luna, which hopefully you can sell easily if the shape is completely a waste for me. 

Well, it's 2x Luna and 1x Glossy Purple for me, the other 2 Luna are for two friends. So yeah, looking forward to get this stuff funded, I'm hyped af about a lightweight 3D printable mouse with good clicks/sensor.


----------



## Zakman

hammelgammler said:


> I just bought 5 Astrum (4x Luna, 1x Glossy Purple). I thought I can always get the normal matte version later, so I better stock up on Luna, which hopefully you can sell easily if the shape is completely a waste for me.
> 
> Well, it's 2x Luna and 1x Glossy Purple for me, the other 2 Luna are for two friends. So yeah, looking forward to get this stuff funded, I'm hyped af about a lightweight 3D printable mouse with good clicks/sensor.


Christ, what a purchase mate. I've hit £150 with my orders but don't think I'm willing to go past that D=


----------



## Jaju123

I backed for just one normal mouse - however it was not clear to me whether this will come with all the shells? Thanks 

Also, @bst, I see you said you are going to try to get the 3389 sensor now. What advantages does this sensor have, if any, over the 3360?


----------



## chort

Jaju123 said:


> I backed for just one normal mouse - however it was not clear to me whether this will come with all the shells? Thanks
> 
> Also, @bst, I see you said you are going to try to get the 3389 sensor now. What advantages does this sensor have, if any, over the 3360?


16,000 cpi instead of 12,000 and higher max tracking speed at 400 ips instead of 250.


----------



## nyshak

Jaju123 said:


> I backed for just one normal mouse - however it was not clear to me whether this will come with all the shells? Thanks


Yes. That is one of the major USPs for this mouse. Basically you get three shapes in one box with the ability to further customize the amount and location of the side buttons.


----------



## cdcd

Jaju123 said:


> I backed for just one normal mouse - however it was not clear to me whether this will come with all the shells? Thanks
> 
> Also, @*bst* , I see you said you are going to try to get the 3389 sensor now. What advantages does this sensor have, if any, over the 3360?


 It will come with all the shells.

The 3389 doesn't have any real-world advantages (the increased maximum CPI isn't usable anyway), but a particular disadvantage compared to the 3360 which is the lower usable CPI range (up to 1800 CPI on the 3389 vs up to 2000 CPI on the 3360).


----------



## empyr

hammelgammler said:


> I just bought 5 Astrum (4x Luna, 1x Glossy Purple). I thought I can always get the normal matte version later, so I better stock up on Luna, which hopefully you can sell easily if the shape is completely a waste for me.
> 
> Well, it's 2x Luna and 1x Glossy Purple for me, the other 2 Luna are for two friends. So yeah, looking forward to get this stuff funded, I'm hyped af about a lightweight 3D printable mouse with good clicks/sensor.



Nice purchase! :thumb:


----------



## xmr1

90% !


----------



## qsxcv

not sure if this has been asked

bst, for the adjustable sensor position, what exactly do the screws screw into? i would use a metal nut and possibly plastic washers
if the screws go into plastic, someone will inevitably overtighten and end up basically destroying the mouse


----------



## muso

yeah i grabbed a Luna as well hopefully its a nice rubber coating!

My Logitech ones have a great thin rubber coating but my original death adder was horrifically bad, got all sticky.


----------



## t3ram

i would have "bought" more than one if you just could use something else than credit card 😕


----------



## iBerggman

You can also pay with Bank transfer or cryptocurrency here: https://ninox.co/shop


----------



## Zakman

It's starting to stall a bit now but all we need is 80-90 more backers (if they were all to pledge $70-$80). What I've found works best is manually recommending via forums or in-game. Articles online don't seem to be much help.


----------



## CunjoCarl

Oh, the Indiegogo page just seems like it hasn't updated the campaign total on the main splash. If you click the red 'more' link on the top right, it show's this campaign as having raised $63,800 total so far, so it looks close to going through! Or I'm mis-understanding it  .

Anyways, the alpha looks nice and narrow, so I'm gonna give it a try. I'm definitely looking forward to the small variant if/when it comes to pass! A bit less height and length would make it perfect for my weird mousing style.


----------



## Excinase

Maybe it counts private donations here? Saw that as well like a week ago.


----------



## bst

hammelgammler said:


> I just bought 5 Astrum (4x Luna, 1x Glossy Purple). I thought I can always get the normal matte version later, so I better stock up on Luna, which hopefully you can sell easily if the shape is completely a waste for me.
> 
> Well, it's 2x Luna and 1x Glossy Purple for me, the other 2 Luna are for two friends. So yeah, looking forward to get this stuff funded, I'm hyped af about a lightweight 3D printable mouse with good clicks/sensor.


Awesome, thanks! 



qsxcv said:


> not sure if this has been asked
> 
> bst, for the adjustable sensor position, what exactly do the screws screw into? i would use a metal nut and possibly plastic washers
> if the screws go into plastic, someone will inevitably overtighten and end up basically destroying the mouse


At the moment, its just using 3 plastic holes per side, but that was mostly because it was difficult to get the right size nut and bolt for the prototype. The final version will have custom ones though. The nut just slots into a nut sized indent on the back of it (https://snag.gy/ZPDHQ0.jpg), and the screw just goes through the base. The nut is held in place by a PCB above it, once that PCB is screwed in, the nut can't go anywhere.



CunjoCarl said:


> Oh, the Indiegogo page just seems like it hasn't updated the campaign total on the main splash. If you click the red 'more' link on the top right, it show's this campaign as having raised $63,800 total so far, so it looks close to going through! Or I'm mis-understanding it  .


I don't know what that is, but I don't think it counts, maybe its just not counting the refunds.


----------



## CunjoCarl

Ohh, good call. You're right, the total on the main page just increased when I got one. Well, I like Zakman's idea of drumming up support by word of mouth.


----------



## senileoldman

Is there a way to pay with Paypal, BST? Otherwise I'll have to wait until it comes out.


----------



## Avalar

senileoldman said:


> Is there a way to pay with Paypal, BST? Otherwise I'll have to wait until it comes out.


You could use an online service to convert Paypal currency to real money or crypto.


----------



## senileoldman

Avalar said:


> You could use an online service to convert Paypal currency to real money or crypto.


Come on, man. My Paypal bux is real money, just locked by a company that can take all your money hostage. Is just that I'm having problems with my bank account and CC's at the moment, and I always have some leftover money on Paypal.


----------



## Zakman

senileoldman said:


> Is there a way to pay with Paypal, BST? Otherwise I'll have to wait until it comes out.


He's had major issues in the past with Paypal and crowdfunders so I don't think you'll be able to pay with it. Talks more about it here: https://tinyurl.com/y95m32wa


----------



## empyr

Ugh it's moving so slow. Several people refunded too.


----------



## nyshak

Only 8% left...11 days. Can still work out.


----------



## Avalar

Say we come up short a thousand or two. What happens next?


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> Say we come up short a thousand or two. What happens next?


If it short with 2 days to go, I'll probably extend the campaign. You can only do it once, and I can add up to 30 more days. I'd rather not, but its better than starting over. I should still be able to get the tooling started when I reach the goal, so even if I did add 30 days, and it hit the goal on day 33, it wouldn't delay things by too much (wouldn't have to wait another 27 extra days).

There is a referral rewards system for contributors in Indiegogo, so if you share your referral link to the campaign, it tracks how many funds came from your link. I can then set rewards for X amount of funds raised (or X amount of mice sold). This is a really easy thing to do, because all I have to do is announce it in an update, with the rewards. I think it could get people to share it a bit more, but the thing is, I don't know what I can offer as rewards, things that won't over complicate the manufacturing (like, custom logos could be difficult). I'm going to give it some more thought today and see what I can do. If anyone has an idea, feel free to let me know and I'll see if I can do it


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> If it short with 2 days to go, I'll probably extend the campaign. You can only do it once, and I can add up to 30 more days. I'd rather not, but its better than starting over. I should still be able to get the tooling started when I reach the goal, so even if I did add 30 days, and it hit the goal on day 33, it wouldn't delay things by too much (wouldn't have to wait another 27 extra days).
> 
> There is a referral rewards system for contributors in Indiegogo, so if you share your referral link to the campaign, it tracks how many funds came from your link. I can then set rewards for X amount of funds raised (or X amount of mice sold). This is a really easy thing to do, because all I have to do is announce it in an update, with the rewards. I think it could get people to share it a bit more, but the thing is, I don't know what I can offer as rewards, things that won't over complicate the manufacturing (like, custom logos could be difficult). I'm going to give it some more thought today and see what I can do. If anyone has an idea, feel free to let me know and I'll see if I can do it


Would be easy to offer buyers who refer other buyers another copy of the mouse for X amount of referrals, right?


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> Would be easy to offer buyers who refer other buyers another copy of the mouse for X amount of referrals, right?


Yeah, I could do that, say 5+ referrals and you get another copy of the mouse?


----------



## SimselOr

*Come on, guys!!!!*

Guys, we need to do more advertising for the mouse
Advertise in your steam name and post it on Facebook or elsewhere 
I have tested almost 50 3360 mice and I still use Ninox venator with paracord and ec2-b mousefeed is by far the best mouse. Come on, guys!!!! I dream of an Astrum Mini in the future and for that the Astrum must be a success! Should be $2,000 open by the end. I'll pay the rest, but we should do the same.


----------



## aCz-

I prolly will have to buy one more mice before its ends. Somehow this is going too slow.  But i guess there will be more people like me who will jump and buy "one more" just to get project started. At least i hope so...


----------



## Excinase

bst, will Astrum S come out if original barely gets funded? Less and less people donate so I'm wondering if we will get to see the smaller one after this one...


----------



## chort

Excinase said:


> bst, will Astrum S come out if original barely gets funded? Less and less people donate so I'm wondering if we will get to see the smaller one after this one...


he did say that it would be much easier for him to start with the astrum R and the wireless version of the astrum, so if it is all a success the small versoin might follow with no for funds.
but at this rate I don't think he will start another crowd fund anytime soon.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Yeah, I could do that, say 5+ referrals and you get another copy of the mouse?


I'm in!


----------



## Ukkooh

Only needs 75 more buyers. Make mice great again!


----------



## Ephant

Welp, ordered one. 

I'm 90% sure I won't like it due to its size.


----------



## xmr1

Alright I'm done. 2 Black Knights, 1 Dilithium, 1 Plutonium.


----------



## k0fz

If you can get your hands on SteelSeries' TrueMove3 sensor, I'd take it over the 3366, 3360 and probably 3389, any day. I swear there's some problem with the 3366 and 3360, I just can't seem to aim well with them. Especially with tracking weapons like the lightning gun in Quake Live. Whereas with the TrueMove3 I'm basically an aimbot. bst, you come from Quake like me... have you experienced this?

Rapha said on stream that he used a Logitech G403 and that he tried and tried but couldn't hit his shots, so he switched to Zowie EC2-A (3310 sensor). Toxjq switched to Zowie FK2 (3310 sensor) from a WMO with a 3366 in it. He said the 3366 is too precise for his taste, which sounds pretty strange to me. Seems more like he couldn't put a finger on what it was that he didn't like about it.

Then I've seen several people in Quake Twitch chats claiming that the 3366/3360 has a deadzone. I'm starting to believe this now considering my own experience and because of the Quake pros I mentioned. I know the TrueMove3 is a customized 3360, but it seems like they've fixed the problem with it somehow.

How much do I have to pay you to put a TrueMove3 in my copy of the Astrum? ;PPP


----------



## chort

k0fz said:


> If you can get your hands on SteelSeries' TrueMove3 sensor, I'd take it over the 3366, 3360 and probably 3989, any day. I swear there's some problem with the 3366 and 3360, I just can't seem to aim well with them. Particularly with tracking weapons like the lightning gun in Quake Live. Whereas with the TrueMove3 I'm basically an aimbot. bst, you come from Quake like me... have you experienced this?
> 
> Rapha said on stream that he used a Logitech G403 and that he tried and tried but couldn't hit his shots, so he switched to Zowie EC2-A (3310 sensor). Toxjq switched to Zowie FK2 (3310 sensor) from a WMO with a 3366 in it. He said the 3366 is too precise for his taste, which sounds pretty strange to me. Seems more like he couldn't put a finger on what it was that he didn't like about it.
> 
> Then I've seen several people in Quake Twitch chats claiming that the 3366/3360 has a deadzone. I'm starting to believe this now considering my own experience and because of the Quake pros I mentioned. I know the TrueMove3 is a customized 3360, but it seems like they've fixed the problem with it somehow.
> 
> How much do I have to pay you to put a TrueMove3 in my copy of the Astrum? ;PPP


well I don't think he will pay attention to your claims just because of the "quake pros" you mentioned.
subjective feeling is nice but if you actually want to change his mind back it up with some evidence and research.


----------



## k0fz

chort said:


> well I don't think he will pay attention to your claims just because of the "quake pros" you mentioned.
> subjective feeling is nice but if you actually want to change his mind back it up with some evidence and research.


Well, it doesn't hurt to mention it. Why do you put quotation marks around "quake pros"? They are two of the most legendary pros in Esports history coming from the most skill-intensive FPS game series in the world.


----------



## chort

k0fz said:


> Well, it doesn't hurt to mention it. Why do you put quotation marks around "quake pros"? They are two of the most legendary pros in Esports history coming from the most skillful FPS game series in the world.


don't doubt that or them, I play quake champions myself, I just don't think subjective opinion is enough to support your claims even if it comes from proffesionals.


----------



## Avalar

xmr1 said:


> Alright I'm done. 2 Black Knights, 1 Dilithium, 1 Plutonium.


Dang dude. Unlike you, I settled for just one of those, and got two more colors instead. ^-^

I might just look at it rather than use it, though... That's what the other ones are for.


----------



## Avalar

chort said:


> well I don't think he will pay attention to your claims just because of the "quake pros" you mentioned.
> subjective feeling is nice but if you actually want to change his mind back it up with some evidence and research.


Right.



k0fz said:


> If you can get your hands on SteelSeries' TrueMove3 sensor, I'd take it over the 3366, 3360 and probably 3989, any day. I swear there's some problem with the 3366 and 3360, I just can't seem to aim well with them. Especially with tracking weapons like the lightning gun in Quake Live. Whereas with the TrueMove3 I'm basically an aimbot. bst, you come from Quake like me... have you experienced this?
> 
> Rapha said on stream that he used a Logitech G403 and that he tried and tried but couldn't hit his shots, so he switched to Zowie EC2-A (3310 sensor). Toxjq switched to Zowie FK2 (3310 sensor) from a WMO with a 3366 in it. He said the 3366 is too precise for his taste, which sounds pretty strange to me. Seems more like he couldn't put a finger on what it was that he didn't like about it.
> 
> Then I've seen several people in Quake Twitch chats claiming that the 3366/3360 has a deadzone. I'm starting to believe this now considering my own experience and because of the Quake pros I mentioned. I know the TrueMove3 is a customized 3360, but it seems like they've fixed the problem with it somehow.
> 
> How much do I have to pay you to put a TrueMove3 in my copy of the Astrum? ;PPP


Thing is, in all the examples you've listed, it's different people trying different mice with different sensors in them; not a single constant. Claiming that something is true isn't _proving_ that it is. Many users inside and outside of the OC forums have also claimed similar vague reasons as to which one of those sensors is their favorite, and it's all based on how they _feel_ to those users. Some prefer how the 3310 behaves over the 3360, but to say the 3310 is more accurate is _false_, and has been proven so. Rather, _they_ are more accurate with _it_. In my experience, the 3310 felt "floaty" in comparison to the 3366, and I didn't like it. The latest 3360 spinoffs are so close (at lease, up to a certain DPI, depending on the sensor) that nobody should have trouble adjusting. The difference is something minute, like changing your DPI plus or minus 50, or less. You're telling me you _could not_ eventually play your game at the same level afterward? Personally, I've been doing just fine with everything statistically the same as, or better than, the 3360 sensor.

Also, the 3989 is used in the old DeathAdder Chroma. Does that even compare?


----------



## xmr1

Avalar said:


> Dang dude. Unlike you, I settled for just one of those, and got two more colors instead. ^-^
> 
> I might just look at it rather than use it, though... That's what the other ones are for.


I was initially going to just get one Black Knight since I usually prefer glossy coatings and I think it easily looks the best. Then I talked myself into getting a backup just in case it ends up being my endgame mouse and it's never available again. And today I happened to notice there was only 1 discount left for the 2x colored package and that got me thinking about the possibilities of mixing all the colored panels around. Green/purple and dark chrome/purple should be pretty nice.


----------



## k0fz

Avalar said:


> Right.
> 
> 
> 
> Thing is, in all the examples you've listed, it's different people trying different mice with different sensors in them; not a single constant. Claiming that something is true isn't _proving_ that it is. Many users inside and outside of the OC forums have also claimed similar vague reasons as to which one of those sensors is their favorite, and it's all based on how they _feel_ to those users. Some prefer how the 3310 behaves over the 3360, but to say the 3310 is more accurate is _false_, and has been proven so. Rather, _they_ are more accurate with _it_. In my experience, the 3310 felt "floaty" in comparison to the 3366, and I didn't like it. The latest 3360 spinoffs are so close (at lease, up to a certain DPI, depending on the sensor) that nobody should have trouble adjusting. The difference is something minute, like changing your DPI plus or minus 50, or less. You're telling me you _could not_ eventually play your game at the same level afterward? Personally, I've been doing just fine with everything statistically the same as, or better than, the 3360 sensor.
> 
> Also, the 3989 is used in the old DeathAdder Chroma. Does that even compare?


Yes, different mice, but the same sensor (3366), which were used by the two pros and the random Quake players. And they all prefer 3310 over 3366 and 3360, me included. The TrueMove3 beats it though imo, and some of those people agreed on that as well. I played worse than normal with the 3366 and 3360 indeed.

Nope, I have no scientific evidence to support my claims unfortunately. Maybe this? lol https://techaeris.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/310_sensor_data_001.png

I just thought it was worth mentioning anyway because we're a good amount of players who feel the same way. I thought it was especially interesting because of some pros seemingly agreeing. And isn't it kind of the same in CS:GO? The vast majority of the pros seem to be using mice with the 3310 sensor. I agree that the 3310 doesn't feel as snappy, but yet I find it easier to hit with.

Sorry, I meant to say the 3389 - Razer's version of the 3360. I'll edit that.


----------



## chort

k0fz said:


> Yes, different mice, but the same sensor (3366), which were used by the two pros and the random Quake players. And they all prefer 3310 over 3366 and 3360, me included. The TrueMove3 beats it though imo. Nope, I have no scientific evidence to support my claims unfortunately. Correct, I played worse than normal. I just thought it was worth mentioning anyway because we're a good amount of players who feel the same way. I thought it was especially interesting because of some pros seemingly agreeing. And isn't it kind of the same in CS:GO? The vast majority of the pros seem to be using mice with the 3310 sensor. I agree that the 3310 doesn't feel as snappy, but yet I find it easier to hit with.
> 
> Sorry, I meant to say the 3389 - Razer's version of the 3360. I'll edit that.


the only mice worth mentioning with the 3310 are zowie's ec a and fk series, they are being used for their shape and definitely NOT for the sensor.
their preferences of sensors are still irrelevant until backed up by actual tests.
even ignoring that you don't base your claims by facts your argument is still pretty weak because you assume pros prefer 3310 over 3360 instead of assuming that they prefer mice with better shapes then what the 3360 mice have to offer.


----------



## k0fz

chort said:


> the only mice worth mentioning with the 3310 are zowie's ec a and fk series, they are being used for their shape and definitely NOT for the sensor.
> their preferences of sensors are still irrelevant until backed up by actual tests.
> even ignoring that you don't base your claims by facts your argument is still pretty weak because you assume pros prefer 3310 over 3360 instead of assuming that they prefer mice with better shapes then what the 3360 mice have to offer.


True, I didn't take shapes into consideration. What's interesting with Toxjq though is that he used to love WMO (like many other Quake pros) and played with it for over a decade. Then recently he decided to put the 3366 in it, and now suddenly he doesn't seem to like it, despite it being the same exact shell. He couldn't continue using the WMO sensor because you have to use 3rd party stuff to overclock it to 500hz and tournament organizers didn't allow it I think.


----------



## chort

k0fz said:


> True, I didn't take shapes into consideration. What's interesting with Toxjq though is that he used to love WMO (like many other Quake pros) and played with it for over a decade. Then recently he decided to put the 3366 in it, and now suddenly he doesn't seem to like it, despite it being the same exact shell. He couldn't continue using the WMO sensor because you have to use 3rd party stuff to overclock it to 500hz and tournament organizers didn't allow it I think.


you literally seem to contradict yourself, saying he doesn't seem to like it but afterwards saying he couldn't use it in tournaments.
ofc he wouldn't use this mouse if he can't use the modified version in tournaments.
if you truelly care about having the true move 3 in the astrum go do the research needed to back your claims up (also it should be cost effective for it to be worth it as well), and if you're to lazy to do it just put the argument to rest.


----------



## senileoldman

k0fz said:


> True, I didn't take shapes into consideration. What's interesting with Toxjq though is that he used to love WMO (like many other Quake pros) and played with it for over a decade. Then recently he decided to put the 3366 in it, and now suddenly he doesn't seem to like it, despite it being the same exact shell. He couldn't continue using the WMO sensor because you have to use 3rd party stuff to overclock it to 500hz and tournament organizers didn't allow it I think.


The 3366 doesn't work on the Icemat which is what he had. The static friction of those pads is the lowest you can find and he uses fairly high sens like any person who plays Quake, doesn't he? So I think it's because of that. I see on his Twich description that he's using a Steelseries plastic pad, I had of those and they are different from the Icemat and get worn out after a while.

Don't think so much about it and use whatever you want. If you think the 3310 is better, use that. I personally can't tell the difference between sensors, even laser sensors feel good to me.


----------



## Avalar

xmr1 said:


> ...and that got me thinking about the possibilities of mixing all the colored panels around. Green/purple and dark chrome/purple should be pretty nice.


Same! I thought about doing that as well, but I think the only combination that would make sense would be the rubber gray sides with any of the colors. They weren't painted for the purpose of mixing up the shells, so all the colors clash terribly lol.


----------



## lurkerguy

Putting TrueMove3 into this mouse is only a good idea if you want to lose all of your customers which I'm sure bst is not too interested in.


----------



## cdcd

k0fz said:


> If you can get your hands on SteelSeries' TrueMove3 sensor, I'd take it over the 3366, 3360 and probably 3389, any day. I swear there's some problem with the 3366 and 3360, I just can't seem to aim well with them. Especially with tracking weapons like the lightning gun in Quake Live. Whereas with the TrueMove3 I'm basically an aimbot. bst, you come from Quake like me... have you experienced this?
> 
> Rapha said on stream that he used a Logitech G403 and that he tried and tried but couldn't hit his shots, so he switched to Zowie EC2-A (3310 sensor). Toxjq switched to Zowie FK2 (3310 sensor) from a WMO with a 3366 in it. He said the 3366 is too precise for his taste, which sounds pretty strange to me. Seems more like he couldn't put a finger on what it was that he didn't like about it.
> 
> Then I've seen several people in Quake Twitch chats claiming that the 3366/3360 has a deadzone. I'm starting to believe this now considering my own experience and because of the Quake pros I mentioned. I know the TrueMove3 is a customized 3360, but it seems like they've fixed the problem with it somehow.
> 
> How much do I have to pay you to put a TrueMove3 in my copy of the Astrum? ;PPP



Here's a comparison in terms of motion delay between the 3366 and the TrueMove 3:









And here's a comparison between the 3366 and a 3310 (EC2-A, 5k CPI SROM) in terms of initial movement from a full stop:









It's evident there's no 'deadzone' either.

I'm well familiar with those claims of the 3366 allegedly having a 'deadzone' (which it can't have due to technical reasons, by the way) or lacking the ability to do 'micro adjustments' in Quake Twitch chats. They're mostly coming from one guy and they're not backed up by empirical evidence, only by 'feels'. There can be many reasons why people have trouble hitting shots with certain mice, the sensor that is being used is just one of them. 



k0fz said:


> True, I didn't take shapes into consideration. What's interesting with Toxjq though is that he used to love WMO (like many other Quake pros) and played with it for over a decade. Then recently he decided to put the 3366 in it, and now suddenly he doesn't seem to like it, despite it being the same exact shell. He couldn't continue using the WMO sensor because you have to use 3rd party stuff to overclock it to 500hz and tournament organizers didn't allow it I think.


This is factually incorrect, actually. He's been using the modded WMO extensively and only decided to ditch it due to the compatibility issues (LOD) with his Icemat (his mousing surface of preference). That mod wasn't done by him (Sujoy Roy did it) and not recently (more than a year ago), either.


----------



## the1freeMan

k0fz said:


> If you can get your hands on SteelSeries' TrueMove3 sensor, I'd take it over the 3366, 3360 and probably 3389, any day. I swear there's some problem with the 3366 and 3360, I just can't seem to aim well with them. Especially with tracking weapons like the lightning gun in Quake Live. Whereas with the TrueMove3 I'm basically an aimbot. bst, you come from Quake like me... have you experienced this?
> 
> Rapha said on stream that he used a Logitech G403 and that he tried and tried but couldn't hit his shots, so he switched to Zowie EC2-A (3310 sensor). Toxjq switched to Zowie FK2 (3310 sensor) from a WMO with a 3366 in it. He said the 3366 is too precise for his taste, which sounds pretty strange to me. Seems more like he couldn't put a finger on what it was that he didn't like about it.
> 
> Then I've seen several people in Quake Twitch chats claiming that the 3366/3360 has a deadzone. I'm starting to believe this now considering my own experience and because of the Quake pros I mentioned. I know the TrueMove3 is a customized 3360, but it seems like they've fixed the problem with it somehow.
> 
> How much do I have to pay you to put a TrueMove3 in my copy of the Astrum? ;PPP


This type of reasoning not only if flawed, but dangerous.
People like repeating stuff they hear in order to sound informed on the topic, even if they don't even know the meaning of the words they are using. 
People claiming stuff on twitch doesn't mean anything. If anything, do the exact opposite of what the latest trend in parroting around is.

cdcd showed you the correct methodology to go about with these things. 
You see how misinformation gets spread easily by parroting random claims around and wanting to believe an easy answer that requires no work.
It's extremely easy to settle for believing in things that "sound right", but this is technology and things have reasons and consequences, believing easy answers from other people is not a logically sound method of research.

After a while this tipe of BS will start to "not sound right", if you take time to understand the topic a bit more deeply.


----------



## senileoldman

Even then, it would be impossible for BST to put the TrueMove3 or whatever on his mouse, as it's a proprietary gimmick name they gave to the 3360.


----------



## cdcd

senileoldman said:


> Even then, it would be impossible for BST to put the TrueMove3 or whatever on his mouse, as it's a proprietary gimmick name they gave to the 3360.


A Steelseries rep told me that it's simply a 3360 with a custom SROM that extends the 'no smoothing' CPI range to 3500 CPI (instead of the standard 2000 CPI). Said SROM is, as you correctly pointed out, proprietary.


----------



## k0fz

chort said:


> you literally seem to contradict yourself, saying he doesn't seem to like it but afterwards saying he couldn't use it in tournaments.
> ofc he wouldn't use this mouse if he can't use the modified version in tournaments.
> if you truelly care about having the true move 3 in the astrum go do the research needed to back your claims up (also it should be cost effective for it to be worth it as well), and if you're to lazy to do it just put the argument to rest.


You misunderstood. He couldn't use the WMO with the original sensor (MLT04) because it required overclocking, so instead he put a 3366 inside of his WMO with the help of Sujoy like a guy above me mentioned, and it was allowed.

Like I said, I'd pay extra for him to do it with my copy only. Unlikely that he'll do it, but just saying.



senileoldman said:


> The 3366 doesn't work on the Icemat which is what he had. The static friction of those pads is the lowest you can find and he uses fairly high sens like any person who plays Quake, doesn't he? So I think it's because of that. I see on his Twich description that he's using a Steelseries plastic pad, I had of those and they are different from the Icemat and get worn out after a while.
> 
> Don't think so much about it and use whatever you want. If you think the 3310 is better, use that. I personally can't tell the difference between sensors, even laser sensors feel good to me.


The static friction is way higher on an Icemat than on a plastic pad in my experience, but lower than cloth pads. That particular plastic pad does indeed get worn out. Using another plastic pad called Razer Destructor 2 myself and it seems to last way longer. He used the WMO with the 3366 on SteelSeries' plastic pad also and then said he didn't like how the sensor feels.

Yep, at least for CS players his sens is extremely high.



cdcd said:


> I'm well familiar with those claims of the 3366 allegedly having a 'deadzone' (which it can't have due to technical reasons, by the way) or lacking the ability to do 'micro adjustments' in Quake Twitch chats. They're mostly coming from one guy and they're not backed up by empirical evidence, only by 'feels'. There can be many reasons why people have trouble hitting shots with certain mice, the sensor that is being used is just one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> This is factually incorrect, actually. He's been using the modded WMO extensively and only decided to ditch it due to the compatibility issues (LOD) with his Icemat (his mousing surface of preference). That mod wasn't done by him (Sujoy Roy did it) and not recently (more than a year ago), either.


I've seen about five different people in just Quake Twitch chats mentioning this now, but yes, it's not backed up by any evidence other than "feels" like you say.

Yes, but then he used it on SteelSeries' plastic pad, and he still didn't like it. I personally asked him if he thought there was something wrong with the 3366 and he said something along the lines of "it's too precise for my taste, I like the 3310 more".

Yep, it's probably around a year ago now, which is quite recent to me considering he used the original WMO for over a decade, but yea.



the1freeMan said:


> This type of reasoning not only if flawed, but dangerous.
> People like repeating stuff they hear in order to sound informed on the topic, even if they don't even know the meaning of the words they are using.
> People claiming stuff on twitch doesn't mean anything. If anything, do the exact opposite of what the latest trend in parroting around is.
> 
> cdcd showed you the correct methodology to go about with these things.
> You see how misinformation gets spread easily by parroting random claims around and wanting to believe an easy answer that requires no work.
> It's extremely easy to settle for believing in things that "sound right", but this is technology and things have reasons and consequences, believing easy answers from other people is not a logically sound method of research.
> 
> After a while this tipe of BS will start to "not sound right", if you take time to understand the topic a bit more deeply.


You're right, but I thought it was pretty clear that it was just mine and a few others opinion, and that there unfortunately is no real proof. I listened to them because I had the exact same experience with those sensors. If I performed just as good with the 3366 as with the 3310 and TrueMove3, I obviously wouldn't have thought that there was something to what they were saying.


----------



## nyshak

The 3360 is a tried and true sensor. There is no deadzone, only subjective "feeling" for some people The same way some people still prefer the MLT04 @ 500hz above everything. Tox would still use the WMO with that if he was allowed to do that. Does that make this sensor better than the 3360? The answer is no and supported by evidence. That doesn't mean Tox is wrong. If he plays better with X, X it is for him. Same with me or you. Whatever works best. But bst can't listen to Tox, me or you on this, he has to rely on that test/measurements show.


----------



## xmr1

cdcd said:


> A Steelseries rep told me that it's simply a 3360 with a custom SROM that extends the 'no smoothing' CPI range to 3500 CPI (instead of the standard 2000 CPI). Said SROM is, as you correctly pointed out, proprietary.


It's funny to see how people get the idea that essentially identical sensors track differently just because the name is different.


----------



## iBerggman

It'd be interesting to test if you can tell different sensors apart in an actual blind test with identical shells, I have a feeling there's a lot of placebo or bias involved when it comes to sensor preference but I'd like to be proven wrong. I mean I do believe it's important to "trust your peripherals" if it gives you more confidence in game because in the end confidence is what really makes a difference in how you play. However, I don't like how quick some people are to claim a sensor is unusable based on quick impressions that likely are influenced by other factors like the shell shape, mouse feet or even software more so than the actual sensor.


----------



## DazzaInOz

I really wish bst would use the 3389 because that is unquestionably and scientifically proven the best sensor ever and used by that pro guy whose name I can't remember right now but he said it increased his headshots from 100 to 10000 per game....oh wait, the Astrum will officially use the 3389


----------



## Avalar

DazzaInOz said:


> I really wish bst would use the 3389 because that is unquestionably and scientifically proven the best sensor ever and used by that pro guy whose name I can't remember right now but he said it increased his headshots from 100 to 10000 per game....oh wait, the Astrum will officially use the 3389


Jokes aside, it's mainly for the 50-DPI steps. I think it's a worthy trade-off tbh. Unless you play games where the sensitivity is extremely low and can't be changed, or you like to use more than 1800 DPI on your desktop for whatever reason, you won't notice a difference.

From 12000 to 16000 DPI? Whatever floats your boat I guess. Maybe you want your game projected at the local movie theater lmao.

And no one's ever gonna hit 10m/s on their Astrum anyway. Just another example of Razer confusing being "the best at" something with "the most" something.


----------



## aCz-

@bst


----------



## aCz-

@bst , how much you still missing if you count in a money you are getting in different payment methods?


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> Jokes aside, it's mainly for the 50-DPI steps. I think it's a worthy trade-off tbh. Unless you play games where the sensitivity is extremely low and can't be changed, or you like to use more than 1800 DPI on your desktop for whatever reason, you won't notice a difference.
> 
> From 12000 to 16000 DPI? Whatever floats your boat I guess. Maybe you want your game projected at the local movie theater lmao.
> 
> And no one's ever gonna hit 10m/s on their Astrum anyway. Just another example of Razer confusing being "the best at" something with "the most" something.


Yeah, its mostly for the 50 DPI steps, quite a few people have asked for that, but no one has asked for more DPI or tracking speed 



aCz- said:


> @bst , how much you still missing if you count in a money you are getting in different payment methods?


I can't really count the money that comes in from outside Indiegogo, since it turns out they won't let me add it. So its just a way for people to pre-order it, it can't actually help the campaign, and I can't lower the funding amount either. So what is on the Indiegogo page is what it needs.


----------



## hammelgammler

@bst

I know that for every 5 referals you get one mouse for free, how about everyone that bought the perk with 5 Astrum can also get one for free? I mean, it's kind of like to referal 5 people about it right? 

No just kidding, although I would love to get an extra one, just in case. I thought it was a bit odd to not get like 25-30% off for the 5 Astrum package, as you could easily just buy 2 and get the same price per mouse. The same rule applied for 1 vs 2 mice, like a higher discount when you take more.

But I'm happy either way, I just want to get this funded and have my (hopefully) endgame mouse ready to play.


----------



## cdcd

Not sure if the ability to adjust CPI in increments of 50 is worth the trade-offs. The (virtually) smoothing-free CPI range is lower (up to 1800 instead of up to 2000) and the higher CPI settings become straight up unusable (64 frames of smoothing at and above 6000 CPI, 128 [!] frames of smoothing at and above 11300 CPI). 3360 has 32 frames of smoothing at and above 2100 CPI and that's it.


----------



## xmr1

I think it's worth it but I guess I don't have any sympathy or concern for the >=6000 DPI crowd. For everyone else, we lose 2 "good" steps (1900/2000) but gain 17 others.


----------



## Ephant

@bst It would be nice if you could post some photos with the prototype next to some other mice (for size comparison).


----------



## pez

I've had favorite shapes through all of the grip style changes I've gone through, but I can't say that I've had favorite sensors. Hell, my favorite claw mouse is the Kinzu v2. It just spun out too much for me with my play style and I had to axe it. The G903 and G403/G703 are great examples for me. For the claw type of grip I have on them, the G403/703 was hands down the better shape (and still the most consistent I've ever been with McCree in OW). Palm grip is my current go to and the DeathAdder (and now the Mamba) are my favorite shapes. They're both too small for a true palm grip for me, but I couldn't stand the OG Rival after a while...probably the only mouse that has let me do a true palm grip. The Rival 310 I had high hopes for, but ultimately the side grips and lateral m1 and m2 killed it for me.

I'm always super open to trying a new shape as I can get different grip styles to work if it just overall 'feels' right.


----------



## empyr

Almost just 3000 to go!


----------



## FatalProximity

Ephant said:


> @bst It would be nice if you could post some photos with the prototype next to some other mice (for size comparison).


I second this. Would be great to compare it to some popular ergo mice and ambi mice with comparable parts used on the Astrum.


----------



## Menthalion

Since there's no way I could explain adding two identical mice to a collection that already could serve an entire call centre, I just had to buy that Black Knight to be able to support BST. Honestly !


----------



## bst

I've just got the full datasheet for the 3389 sensor and it looks like I might be able to turn the smoothing off (or at least lower it), there is an option called "ripple control". By default its enabled, but you can just turn it off. This option wasn't in the 3360.

The PCBs have been sent to me now, so hopefully I'll get them by the end of the week, then I'll be able to try that option and give it a test.

I'm printing out a couple more shells with the revised shapes, so I will take photos of them next to other mice when I've got them. Theres not a huge difference between the new shapes, just slight changes, but it'll be the most correct comparison for the final shapes.


----------



## cdcd

bst said:


> I've just got the full datasheet for the 3389 sensor and it looks like I might be able to turn the smoothing off (or at least lower it), there is an option called "ripple control". By default its enabled, but you can just turn it off. This option wasn't in the 3360.


You may need to do some testing how much smoothing is necessary to keep jitter under control. Setting it up in a similar way as the 3360 should be safe at least (and I suspect either the smoothing-free CPI range could be extended or the amount of smoothing that kicks in at and above 2100 CPI on the 3360 reduced without any drawbacks).


----------



## bst

cdcd said:


> You may need to do some testing how much smoothing is necessary to keep jitter under control. Setting it up in a similar way as the 3360 should be safe at least (and I suspect either the smoothing-free CPI range could be extended or the amount of smoothing that kicks in at and above 2100 CPI on the 3360 reduced without any drawbacks).


Unfortunately you don't get that kind of control, the only option is on or off 

What I can do though is put the option in the software, so you can turn it on or off.

The only other thing I can do is put in optional MCU smoothing, so you can adjust it from off to say 5 different levels, but it will take a lot of testing to make sure its not impacting things too negatively, so that might have to come in a FW update.


----------



## Ephant

Here are some approx size comparisons: 

Sensei
Kinzu
FK1
WMO

edit: only look at length and height, not at the mouse shape. I had to slightly modify the shapes of some mice to get the dimensions right (due to perspective of the photos).


----------



## xmr1

Definitely on the longer side but it's not too wide so we'll have to see how it feels. Need about 30 more backers right now.


----------



## DazzaInOz

Black Knight incoming. Now I'll have a matte blue, rubberized grey and glossy black for all conditions and festive occasions!


----------



## vanir1337

Bit over 2k needed in 4 days. Can we do it???


----------



## Avalar

Left my job to start prepping for university. Should've stayed another week so I could afford the two colors I'm missing. D;


----------



## cdcd

bst said:


> Unfortunately you don't get that kind of control, the only option is on or off
> 
> What I can do though is put the option in the software, so you can turn it on or off.
> 
> The only other thing I can do is put in optional MCU smoothing, so you can adjust it from off to say 5 different levels, but it will take a lot of testing to make sure its not impacting things too negatively, so that might have to come in a FW update.


I'd say the best solution would be then to turn smoothing completely off at the DSP level (without any option to turn it on) and include an option in the software to enable MCU smoothing that has been fine-tuned for the best balance between smoothing levels and jitter control. I'm not sure whether MCU smoothing is equivalent to DSP smoothing in terms of 'feel' and 'performance', however.


----------



## empyr

@*bst* When will you have to make the choice of extending?


Edit: Doubt you will need to anyway!


----------



## hisXLNC

@bst you need to update the sensor in the main info on the campaign page


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

There's a large burst in Contributions and its at 99%. 1% left.


----------



## gunit2004

0mega1Spawn said:


> There's a large burst in Contributions and its at 99%. 1% left.


Awesome, I think we will make it for sure now.

I was kind of curious however... never used Indiegogo, but what would happen in a situation where the campaign did not make it in time?


----------



## Excinase

gunit2004 said:


> Awesome, I think we will make it for sure now.
> 
> I was kind of curious however... never used Indiegogo, but what would happen in a situation where the campaign did not make it in time?


You'd get refunded.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

gunit2004 said:


> Awesome, I think we will make it for sure now.
> 
> I was kind of curious however... never used Indiegogo, but what would happen in a situation where the campaign did not make it in time?





bst said:


> If it short with 2 days to go, I'll probably extend the campaign. You can only do it once, and I can add up to 30 more days. I'd rather not, but its better than starting over. I should still be able to get the tooling started when I reach the goal, so even if I did add 30 days, and it hit the goal on day 33, it wouldn't delay things by too much (wouldn't have to wait another 27 extra days).


Hi.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

100% at $64,710? : Poggers :


----------



## Ukkooh

Aand astrum reached the crowdfunding target. Now the real wait begins.


----------



## aCz-

Ukkooh said:


> Aand astrum reached the crowdfunding target. Now the real wait begins.



it's only 5 month to wait.... giggle


----------



## bst

Thanks to everyone here who helped the Astrum reach its goal! It really shows a lot of faith, but I promise you're going to like it, now I have the final shapes, they feel perfect to me. You know when a mouse feels good to hold, so even if you're not using it, you want to hold it, just because its shape feels good? Its like that  (for me, anyway, but I'm really sure a lot of people will feel the same)




empyr said:


> @*bst* When will you have to make the choice of extending?
> 
> 
> Edit: Doubt you will need to anyway!


I am going to extend it, I'll go into more detail in an update (on the indie page), but basically if I let it go into "In Demand" (where people can still order perks), it doesn't work out well with the fulfilment company I use, they want it all the shipping to be from the crowd fund. So, rather than do In Demand, its easier just to extend it for a month.

(I can of course do In Demand, but they treat it like a separate fulfilment order, and they have a pretty high MOQ, and I don't want to risk not hitting it and having to find some other way to ship the In Demand orders).


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> Thanks to everyone here who helped the Astrum reach its goal! It really shows a lot of faith, but I promise you're going to like it, now I have the final shapes, they feel perfect to me. You know when a mouse feels good to hold, so even if you're not using it, you want to hold it, just because its shape feels good? Its like that  (for me, anyway, but I'm really sure a lot of people will feel the same)
> 
> I am going to extend it, I'll go into more detail in an update (on the indie page), but basically if I let it go into "In Demand" (where people can still order perks), it doesn't work out well with the fulfilment company I use, they want it all the shipping to be from the crowd fund. So, rather than do In Demand, its easier just to extend it for a month.
> 
> (I can of course do In Demand, but they treat it like a separate fulfilment order, and they have a pretty high MOQ, and I don't want to risk not hitting it and having to find some other way to ship the In Demand orders).


Could you still withdraw funds now though? Extending it by a month wouldn't affect the timeline, right?


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> Could you still withdraw funds now though? Extending it by a month wouldn't affect the timeline, right?


I can't withdraw the funds, but the factory doesn't need 100% of the tooling fee straight away, they just want the deposit, and I pay the balance when its done, which will take about 80 days, so should be fine.


----------



## xmr1

@bst Too early to say what the plan is for the Astrum S?


----------



## bst

xmr1 said:


> @bst Too early to say what the plan is for the Astrum S?


Yeah, its a bit too early.

I'll probably get the design started soon. But I might also design some others as well.

I actually like the idea of a Venator mk2, it'd take a lot less funding, and it'd be nice to fix its flaws, make it more lightweight, and use the Astrum FW.

But I'll put it to the vote. I get the feeling people want the Astrum S more though.

Just thought I would also mention, I got the PCBs for the Astrum, and the 3389 is a bit more of a pain to set up than the 3360, it needs some extra steps in its power up sequence, like reading a register every 1ms until it has a specific value. The way it handles DPI is a bit weird as well (but I've figured that out). Its a bit strange, but mostly it's just like the 3360, its just not as plug and play as I thought it would be, because of that power up routine.


----------



## muso

Is there any issue with not having a mouse foot around the sensor?


----------



## Ukkooh

muso said:


> Is there any issue with not having a mouse foot around the sensor?


Won't be an issue. Both the 3360 and 3389 datasheets mention that but many 3360 mice don't have them and work just fine. I don't think the 3389 will be any different.


----------



## gipetto

@bst If you were going to redesign the venator you could lend us modders a hand. I'm sure you're aware of the popularity of deathadder frankenstein mice. there hasn't been a replacement for that, because dual pcb mice 3360 mice are not to be found, and tindie 3360 based mice are expensive, especially considering international postage. the g102 should be the modders choice but the traces are so fine that it's hard to shorten the pcb and have something to solder to, and the sensor position inevitably moves rearward.
What modders need are switch pcb headers and mcu with cable socket near the sensor. Then the modder could hacksaw off the front half and have an easy time of it.


----------



## untouchable247

gipetto said:


> @bst If you were going to redesign the venator you could lend us modders a hand. I'm sure you're aware of the popularity of deathadder frankenstein mice. there hasn't been a replacement for that, because dual pcb mice 3360 mice are not to be found, and tindie 3360 based mice are expensive, especially considering international postage. the g102 should be the modders choice but the traces are so fine that it's hard to shorten the pcb and have something to solder to, and the sensor position inevitably moves rearward.
> What modders need are switch pcb headers and mcu with cable socket near the sensor. Then the modder could hacksaw off the front half and have an easy time of it.


What's the point? Just buy the Venator? Feet are close to perfect, cable sucks but paracord mod is easy to do. Senor doesn't have any issues at all, weight is good, shape is among the best for aiming.

And then wait for the Astrum, of course.


----------



## springrolls

Would the beta:ie shape be close to an ec2 shape? ec2-a is probably my favorite shape ever but the qc is ridiculously bad, and i find it just a bit heavy at 90ish grams.


----------



## gipetto

The venator wouldn't suit me, i've seen comparison photos and it's too small. personally i think a venator mk2 would have little technical advantage over the original. products should improve on their predecessor or users will not bother to upgrade or will switch brands. I don't think I implied anything pointless by posting my suggestion however.


----------



## ryan92084

Congrats on the successful campaign. The "remind me later" crowd comes through again.


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Just thought I would also mention, I got the PCBs for the Astrum, and the 3389 is a bit more of a pain to set up than the 3360, it needs some extra steps in its power up sequence, like reading a register every 1ms until it has a specific value. The way it handles DPI is a bit weird as well (but I've figured that out). Its a bit strange, but mostly it's just like the 3360, its just not as plug and play as I thought it would be, because of that power up routine.



Are you regretting switching to the 3389? I honestly don't really see the problem with the 3360, the main difference is the change that you can use 50 in DPI steps instead of 100?


----------



## untouchable247

gipetto said:


> The venator wouldn't suit me, i've seen comparison photos and it's too small. personally i think a venator mk2 would have little technical advantage over the original. products should improve on their predecessor or users will not bother to upgrade or will switch brands. I don't think I implied anything pointless by posting my suggestion however.


There's room for improvement with the Venator. Build quality is an issue (yes, with the black version, too), cable isn't good, materials aren't great. And even at stock it's the best mouse I've ever had for aiming (which is by far the most important thing for a fps mouse). I'd happily buy a mk2 if it ever comes out and it would be my main just like my current Venator with a paracord cable is my main. The only other mouse having a shot at it is my Coolermaster Mastermouse S with Hyperglides feet, Paracord cable and removed weight. It's up there. I prefer the Venator's scroll wheel for jumping though and I'm more used to the shape by now.

Tried all Zowie mice, all Razer mice, Steelseries, Logitech, ... FK2 is pretty good, too and I'd use it if the Venator and Mastermouse S didn't exist. But they do.


What I don't see a need for is messing around with the Deathadder's sensor and fitting it in other shells. I'm sure it's fun but I'm also sure guys who do this aren't great aimers but just die hard mouse enthusiasts. Which is fine but not what peripheral companies should focus on. They should focus on delivering the best mice for aiming. Shape, weight, sensor, quality.

The Venator might not be for you but I'm 100% sure there's another mouse out there that you or anyone else can aim with much better than with a frankenstein deathadder. Sensors don't mean all that much after all. We don't have to focus on them on an autistic level. Shape and weight is much more important for actually playing well.


----------



## vanir1337

Woohoo, congrats on the successful campaign!


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

untouchable247 said:


> Which is fine but not what peripheral companies should focus on. They should focus on delivering the best mice for aiming. Shape, weight, sensor, quality.


Yes.



untouchable247 said:


> I'm also sure guys who do this aren't great aimers but just die hard mouse enthusiasts.


(－‸ლ) (ー。ー) zzz


----------



## untouchable247

0mega1Spawn said:


> (－‸ლ) (ー。ー) zzz


Reading it again this comes across a little differently than intended. I didn't mean to say mouse modder's aim sucks, I wanted to say going for those mods is not going to help you improve ingame, you're not gonna benefit it and that's not why people go for it. It's just for fun.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> @bst If you were going to redesign the venator you could lend us modders a hand. I'm sure you're aware of the popularity of deathadder frankenstein mice. there hasn't been a replacement for that, because dual pcb mice 3360 mice are not to be found, and tindie 3360 based mice are expensive, especially considering international postage. the g102 should be the modders choice but the traces are so fine that it's hard to shorten the pcb and have something to solder to, and the sensor position inevitably moves rearward.
> What modders need are switch pcb headers and mcu with cable socket near the sensor. Then the modder could hacksaw off the front half and have an easy time of it.


Its not an unreasonable request, I could do that


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

bst's post doesn't show on the desktop version. :thinking:


----------



## Excinase

0mega1Spawn said:


> bst's post doesn't show on the desktop version. /forum/images/smilies/thinking.gif


So doesn't yours. The entire page doesn't load for some reason.


----------



## Avalar

Excinase said:


> So doesn't yours. The entire page doesn't load for some reason.


I've seen that happen 2 or 3 times before. Wonder what causes it. Seems to be fixed, now. Unless going to the page on mobile _and_ on desktop while logged in is what fixes it. Hmm..


----------



## DazzaInOz

Avalar said:


> I've seen that happen 2 or 3 times before. Wonder what causes it. Seems to be fixed, now. Unless going to the page on mobile _and_ on desktop while logged in is what fixes it. Hmm..


I never log in on mobile but still have the issue. Good to know it's not just me though!


----------



## ryan92084

Its a known issue where the new posts don't get numbered properly so a new page may not be created depending on your posts per page setting. Just waiting on a fix.


----------



## Jonny321321

Apologies if this has been answered, but will I be able to buy the Astrum on its completion?


----------



## James N

Jonny321321 said:


> Apologies if this has been answered, but will I be able to buy the Astrum on its completion?


Of course.


----------



## e7zip

springrolls said:


> Would the beta:ie shape be close to an ec2 shape? ec2-a is probably my favorite shape ever but the qc is ridiculously bad, and i find it just a bit heavy at 90ish grams.


interested in the closest shape to EC2, what should i get? Also, what it takes to have 8000hz, i would really love this feature, is it possible?

edit: just read at indiegogo that you get all the parts and customize as you want, create, can you customize it close to EC2?


----------



## popups

Are the new prototypes ready and picture comparison of them done?


----------



## Zakman

e7zip said:


> interested in the closest shape to EC2, what should i get? Also, what it takes to have 8000hz, i would really love this feature, is it possible?
> 
> edit: just read at indiegogo that you get all the parts and customize as you want, create, can you customize it close to EC2?


It wouldn't be a true 1:1 shape since the right side of the mouse slopes downwards (https://i.imgur.com/B4D0a4d.jpg) but the Astrum stays level (https://i.imgur.com/G1gNSa0.png) to keep compatibility with ambidextrous shapes. The Beta IE would still come very close though, you just don't get the right-side slope.


----------



## iBerggman

e7zip said:


> interested in the closest shape to EC2, what should i get? Also, what it takes to have 8000hz, i would really love this feature, is it possible?
> 
> edit: just read at indiegogo that you get all the parts and customize as you want, create, can you customize it close to EC2?


Beta ergonomic maybe? Probably not that close though as the EC shape is a lot more rounded all over and the Astrum doesn't for example have the rounded main buttons and front corners like the EC shape does, not that you'd need them thanks to the length. I haven't really used my EC1-A in over a year but the one thing about it I remember is how curved and smooth the front right corner was because I used to wrap my ring finger all around it.


----------



## Zakman

Some comparison pictures would be great bst (IME 3.0, WMO 1.1) or just new pics in general. We need new material D:


----------



## aCz-

@bst , last request I guess.  Even you sad cable would be pretty flexible could you try to make that wire is put in box more like new logitech mice instead of any other mice on planet?  People really don't like kinked wires


----------



## bst

I'll get some photos as soon as I can, it'll still be a little while though, I've had to do 3 versions of the Beta E sides, its been a bit tricky getting it feeling right, although the other 2 shapes are done. I could take comparison photos with the shape tests, but they don't have a scroll wheel, so they look a bit strange (they're purely to test the feel).

About the cable - I don't think I can get the cable wrapped like the Logitech mice. When I asked them to do it for the Venator, they said they couldn't do it. I think they get the cables pre-wrapped and the cable supplier does it with a machine. But I'll ask again.


----------



## e7zip

Anything on 8khz? Also the best mouse cable i ever used was from Death Adder Elite, hate the logitech cable and EC2 cable is kinda ok.


----------



## bst

e7zip said:


> Anything on 8khz? Also the best mouse cable i ever used was from Death Adder Elite, hate the logitech cable and EC2 cable is kinda ok.


I'll ask my programmer about 8khz. As for me, I have no idea how to do it. Although, I do think its probably not necessary (I think it does slightly fall into gimmick territory). If its difficult, I might save it for an update, so the rest of it isn't delayed.

I'll be testing (for certification) a few different cables, and I'll pick the most flexible one that passes


----------



## vanir1337

e7zip said:


> Anything on 8khz? Also the best mouse cable i ever used was from Death Adder Elite, hate the logitech cable and EC2 cable is kinda ok.


8kHz lol. As if you need anything above 1000 for the next 10 years (or ever).


----------



## e7zip

vanir1337 said:


> 8kHz lol. As if you need anything above 1000 for the next 10 years (or ever).


i feel some difference with a IE3.0 that runs ~3000hz, feels smoothier, so why not 8000hz? Of course there's more important things to do but at least for me would be a nice addition.


----------



## nyshak

e7zip said:


> i feel some difference with a IE3.0 that runs ~3000hz, feels smoothier, so why not 8000hz? Of course there's more important things to do but at least for me would be a nice addition.


I don't think motherboards can handle this, but I could be wrong. I don't see the reason for this as well. While I can tell the difference between 20ms and 50ms, I cannot tell the difference between 2ms and 1ms (500hz vs. 1000hz). I doubt a lot can (ye you might tell yourself so, but in a blind test I doubt it).


----------



## RaleighStClair

nyshak said:


> I don't think motherboards can handle this, but I could be wrong. I don't see the reason for this as well. While I can tell the difference between 20ms and 50ms, I cannot tell the difference between 2ms and 1ms (500hz vs. 1000hz). I doubt a lot can (ye you might tell yourself so, but in a blind test I doubt it).


 You can 100% tell the difference between 500 vs 1000hz on a 240hz monitor.


----------



## e7zip

i've a Alienware 240hz monitor and definitely can tell difference between 3000hz on ie3.0 vs 1000hz on EC2b


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

nyshak said:


> I don't think motherboards can handle this, but I could be wrong. I don't see the reason for this as well. While I can tell the difference between 20ms and 50ms, I cannot tell the difference between 2ms and 1ms (500hz vs. 1000hz). I doubt a lot can (ye you might tell yourself so, but in a blind test I doubt it).


It's not Just about input delay. It's also about granularity.

I've read that you should be careful of mice over 1000 Hz as the USB input is still just polling at 1000 Hz.


----------



## bst

0mega1Spawn said:


> It's not Just about input delay. It's also about granularity.
> 
> I've read that you should be careful of mice over 1000 Hz as the USB input is still just polling at 1000 Hz.


High Speed USB 2 can do 8000hz, because is has microframes every 125us.

If you have a High Speed MCU, then I guess polling at 8khz would be easy, you could just set it in the USB descriptor. A lot of mice aren't High Speed though (most are Full Speed, which is slower - 1ms vs 125us per frame). I think High Speed MCUs are quite expensive and rarer, so they're not as common.

For Full Speed, I'm guessing you need a driver to force the mouse to send its data faster, and I only guess that because there was that sweetlow driver, which I've never tried. I don't really know how that works, but getting it to work on the MCU alone is probably never going to happen without High Speed USB 2.


----------



## vanir1337

e7zip said:


> i've a Alienware 240hz monitor and definitely can tell difference between 3000hz on ie3.0 vs 1000hz on EC2b


The MLT04 in the IE3.0 already feels a million time snappier and more responsive than Zowie's 3310. This isn't an objective comparison like this. Get the same mouse on 1000 Hz vs 8000 and if you can still feel the difference, then you are in a 0.0001% I guess, but it will most likely be a placebo anyways.

But everyone's free to do whatever they want so if the 8 kHz is possible and it won't screw up anything for people who don't need it, well... why not?


----------



## wein07

bst said:


> High Speed USB 2 can do 8000hz, because is has microframes every 125us.
> 
> If you have a High Speed MCU, then I guess polling at 8khz would be easy, you could just set it in the USB descriptor. A lot of mice aren't High Speed though (most are Full Speed, which is slower - 1ms vs 125us per frame). I think High Speed MCUs are quite expensive and rarer, so they're not as common.
> 
> For Full Speed, I'm guessing you need a driver to force the mouse to send its data faster, and I only guess that because there was that sweetlow driver, which I've never tried. I don't really know how that works, but getting it to work on the MCU alone is probably never going to happen without High Speed USB 2.


Hi Bst, is High Speed USB 2 implemented on the mouse side or has to be part of the Motherboard chipset? Thanks.

Really hope you would implement more shapes for the Astrum, because I'm sure there are many ppl like myself looking forward to them!


----------



## empyr

8000 Hz.. lel


----------



## bst

wein07 said:


> Hi Bst, is High Speed USB 2 implemented on the mouse side or has to be part of the Motherboard chipset? Thanks.
> 
> Really hope you would implement more shapes for the Astrum, because I'm sure there are many ppl like myself looking forward to them!


I think if a mobo supports USB 2, then it'll support high speed, although, I don't 100% know that to be a fact. But I think if you have a decent mobo, ie, not some no name cheapo one, it would be fine. So in 99.9% of cases it would be the MCU on the mouse being the limiting factor.


----------



## trism

wein07 said:


> Hi Bst, is High Speed USB 2 implemented on the mouse side or has to be part of the Motherboard chipset? Thanks.
> 
> Really hope you would implement more shapes for the Astrum, because I'm sure there are many ppl like myself looking forward to them!


Mouse side. USB2.0 HS standard came in 2000, so it has been mainstream for ages.


----------



## ewiggle

empyr said:


> 8000 Hz.. lel


I want it. I've found that higher hz tracks better on difficult surfaces in some cases. And I use difficult surfaces a lot. So I want it to try it. Sweet-n-low didn't work with my zalman setup, dunno why.


----------



## gipetto

It's quite a pita to change the mcu. Is the idea qsxcv mentioned of emulating multiple mice practical?


----------



## nyshak

RaleighStClair said:


> You can 100% tell the difference between 500 vs 1000hz on a 240hz monitor.


I have one 240hz display and I can't really tell the difference ingame. Sure, if I switch and play I *think* I can. But I believe that to be just placebo for me. Like my brain knows I changed the setting so *obviously* I have to feel/see something.
But I don't think I could tell you the difference if I had to leave the room you changed the setting (or not) and I have to guess ingame if something changed.

Besides, throughout the last what - 8 years? - I've never had a mobo/mouse that kept 1000hz stable. Mouse tester and other tools always show a huge fluctuation from 8xx-10xxhz. Then again, placebo kicks in and I go "well, then 500hz stable is more consistent so I play with that".

I don't want to know how unstable 8000hz would be.


----------



## qsxcv

nyshak said:


> Besides, throughout the last what - 8 years? - I've never had a mobo/mouse that kept 1000hz stable. Mouse tester and other tools always show a huge fluctuation from 8xx-10xxhz. Then again, placebo kicks in and I go "well, then 500hz stable is more consistent so I play with that".
> 
> I don't want to know how unstable 8000hz would be.


pretty much everything you wrote here is wrong and i've explained this in the past but the ocn search is too bad to find the post

like honestly wth happened to the ocn forum software i can't even find the images i post to threads and stuff

edit:
here https://www.overclock.net/forum/24533094-post1381.html


----------



## popups

I am not liking the new forums. Search is horrible and advanced posting is bad.

Are you sticking to the 3360 and what is the final weight?


----------



## vanir1337

popups said:


> I am not liking the new forums. Search is horrible and advanced posting is bad.
> 
> Are you sticking to the 3360 and what is the final weight?


3389 and no info yet.


----------



## Zakman

@bst

Would a modular MMO/MOBA side ever be possible with the Astrum or an updated version of the Astrum? Just seen the article on Razer using a kick-starter for the left-handed Naga and I've seen posts from the CEO explaining that they're made at a loss due to there being little to no demand for left-handed mice, but the Astrum's unique here since it's almost completely modular, so it's both a right-handed and left-handed mouse so there's no need to worry about making it at a loss. An Astrum with Naga Trinity elements would be mint if possible.

https://youtu.be/PngjdnBj6eY?t=7s


----------



## cdcd

Showerthought @bst: You mentioned that the 3389 offers the option to turn off DSP smoothing ('ripple control'). Does this include the ominous 2 frames of smoothing that are applied at any CPI step on every 3360 and its variants as well? If it does then I'd strongly advise to turn it off entirely as the Astrum would then be one of the few mice that are entirely smoothing-free.


----------



## Taleb

Which shape would be the lightest and what would the weight be (without intentionally leaving the back open)?


----------



## lainx

Taleb said:


> Which shape would be the lightest and what would the weight be (without intentionally leaving the back open)?


No weight stated as of yet (see the indiegogo page). The lightest shape, i assume, would be the configuration without any sides.

...And lol @ Razer selling peripherals at a loss. Naw.


----------



## bst

popups said:


> I am not liking the new forums. Search is horrible and advanced posting is bad.
> 
> Are you sticking to the 3360 and what is the final weight?


I highly doubt I will go back to the 3360.

I don't have an exact weight yet, sorry. I have redesigned the mouse from scratch, because the original model had so many changes, it was hard to add the draft angles and any other adjustments for the mold tooling. Now its much more simple to adjust if needed, also it looks a bit nicer. But I still have a couple more days work before its ready to start tooling. Also I have new PCBs coming which are a bit smaller, which take a few grams off. So, hope you can understand, the exact final weight isn't known just yet.



Zakman said:


> @bst
> 
> Would a modular MMO/MOBA side ever be possible with the Astrum or an updated version of the Astrum? Just seen the article on Razer using a kick-starter for the left-handed Naga and I've seen posts from the CEO explaining that they're made at a loss due to there being little to no demand for left-handed mice, but the Astrum's unique here since it's almost completely modular, so it's both a right-handed and left-handed mouse so there's no need to worry about making it at a loss. An Astrum with Naga Trinity elements would be mint if possible.
> 
> https://youtu.be/PngjdnBj6eY?t=7s


I guess you could mod one to do it, but you'd probably want to use a teensy. At least it'd be easier than most mice. It still wouldn't be an easy mod to do though, its just not designed for that purpose.



cdcd said:


> Showerthought @bst: You mentioned that the 3389 offers the option to turn off DSP smoothing ('ripple control'). Does this include the ominous 2 frames of smoothing that are applied at any CPI step on every 3360 and its variants as well? If it does then I'd strongly advise to turn it off entirely as the Astrum would then be one of the few mice that are entirely smoothing-free.


I don't know yet, the sensor PCB had a mistake on it, which is why I couldn't get it working properly. I've got some new ones coming soon so I'll be able to test it and find out.



Taleb said:


> Which shape would be the lightest and what would the weight be (without intentionally leaving the back open)?


The Alpha is the lightest shape, since it uses less plastic. See my reply to popups above about the weight.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Any pictures? ^-^


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Any pictures? ^-^


I've posted some on the Indiegogo updates page, I'll post some more soon


----------



## Excinase

Did you move hump slightly towards the back? It seems different to me now...


----------



## Zakman

@bst

Cheers for the update. Looking forward to the Beta ambi and ergo photos (I love how the back of the mouse doesn't taper off like the G403!).

I'm just wondering - should the timeline be changed at all?



Excinase said:


> Did you move hump slightly towards the back? It seems different to me now...


I think the hump for the Alpha shape has always been a bit further back. That sample image seems based off the Beta top shell.


----------



## bst

Excinase said:


> Did you move hump slightly towards the back? It seems different to me now...


Sorry, I should explain, the Alpha shape has had that extra height towards the rear for a long time now, because in the first version, the very back of it was too low. So, when fingertipping the mouse and bringing it back (to move the cursor down), it kind of got wedged under your palm, so it needs to be a bit higher to stop that. Like Zakman says, that image is from the Beta shape, which still has the same side profile. I should have put a side picture in of the Alpha shape, but at the time I actually forgot that it was a bit different  (there was so much to remember to include in the Indiegogo page!)



Zakman said:


> @bst
> I'm just wondering - should the timeline be changed at all?


When it goes for tooling I should get an estimate of how long it will take, the changes I've made make the molds significantly easier to make, so I think overall I may have saved time.

I'll explain the difference quickly so people know what I done:

If you can imagine molding a shape like this:

]==[

You need the mold to be in 4 directions, it can't do the whole shape with two halves of a mold (they can't fill the gaps on the side and move up and down at the same time). So what has to happen is, when the two halves of the mold come together, it pushes in rods which then push the side parts in, and although its quite common, the Astrum had about 32 of them, when most mice have about 4 or so (usually, its the 2 front buttons, and some clips). But now there are only 2. So you can imagine how much less work it is now, all parts except the front buttons are just simple 2 part molds (which also is a cleaner and more robust way to do it, since its less moving parts).


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> When it goes for tooling I should get an estimate of how long it will take, the changes I've made make the molds significantly easier to make, so I think overall I may have saved time.
> 
> I'll explain the difference quickly so people know what I done:
> 
> If you can imagine molding a shape like this:
> 
> ]==[
> 
> You need the mold to be in 4 directions, it can't do the whole shape with two halves of a mold (they can't fill the gaps on the side and move up and down at the same time). So what has to happen is, when the two halves of the mold come together, it pushes in rods which then push the side parts in, and although its quite common, the Astrum had about 32 of them, when most mice have about 4 or so (usually, its the 2 front buttons, and some clips). But now there are only 2. So you can imagine how much less work it is now, all parts except the front buttons are just simple 2 part molds (which also is a cleaner and more robust way to do it, since its less moving parts).


Sounds like a massive design improvement but would this introduce any issues with the other features of the mouse? Shell creakiness, harder to use custom 3D parts etc.


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> Sounds like a massive design improvement but would this introduce any issues with the other features of the mouse? Shell creakiness, harder to use custom 3D parts etc.


It shouldn't make any difference, because its the same basic design, its more like a version increment rather than being totally different. The main reason the mouse was redesigned from scratch was because changing the shape pretty much required it, and also the original model had been through so many alterations that it was better to make a new clean model anyway.

The parts are pretty simple, I think more simple than the old one, so it should be easier to design parts for 3D printing. Actually I think the fixings will be the easiest part of the process if you're designing new parts, the hard bit is the surface modelling: making sure everything is tangent, making sure its nice and smooth, coming up with ideas and determining it'll be the shape you wanted, etc  It is fun though!


----------



## xmr1

bst said:


> I've posted some on the Indiegogo updates page, I'll post some more soon


Possible to get pictures from angle behind the mouse? Don't like the sound of the shape being more round but maybe it's more subtle than I imagine.


----------



## iBerggman

xmr1 said:


> Possible to get pictures from angle behind the mouse? Don't like the sound of the shape being more round but maybe it's more subtle than I imagine.


Yeah, the change seems to be really minimal. I found this comment by bst in the comments on the indiegogo page:_

"Here, take a look at this, it shows the old rear profile (the faded area) compared with the new one, you can see its the same width, just the top right and left sides have a more gradual curve to them. "_


----------



## xmr1

iBerggman said:


> Yeah, the change seems to be really minimal. I found this comment by bst in the comments on the indiegogo page:_
> 
> "Here, take a look at this, it shows the old rear profile (the faded area) compared with the new one, you can see its the same width, just the top right and left sides have a more gradual curve to them. "_


Think I would have preferred the older shape based on that image but I understand he can't please everyone.


----------



## MattKelly

iBerggman said:


> Yeah, the change seems to be really minimal. I found this comment by bst in the comments on the indiegogo page:_
> 
> "Here, take a look at this, it shows the old rear profile (the faded area) compared with the new one, you can see its the same width, just the top right and left sides have a more gradual curve to them. "_





xmr1 said:


> Think I would have preferred the older shape based on that image but I understand he can't please everyone.


My question is how much this will affect the usable area for the ring / pinky fingers. Is there less "flat" room available to those fingers now, @bst?


----------



## bst

MattKelly said:


> My question is how much this will affect the usable area for the ring / pinky fingers. Is there less "flat" room available to those fingers now, @bst?


Overall, there is more grip from this change, that curve is really important for keeping more of the hand in contact with the mouse.

I think its difficult to tell from pictures, you have to hold them both. Its like this - if some part of your hand is raised too much, it creates a gap behind and/or in front of it, where your hand isn't making contact with the shell, which also creates an area of higher pressure which can become uncomfortable over longer playing sessions.

Also, your fingers want to kind of follow the curve of what they're wrapping around, so if that curve I changed was pushing your fingers more outwards, its less comfortable to then curve them in, in order to make contact with the sides of the mouse, and you also end up with a gap.

In the end, you can't really get it from a picture, its a 3D shape, and one 2D slice, or a 2D picture of it just doesn't really represent how it feels overall. When you design the shapes, print them, and test them, it is a real eye opener. What you think is going to work, sometimes doesn't, and you have to actually mark out on the mouse all the areas of high and low pressure, and adjust the curves so it feels more natural. You can guess it to a certain extent, but in the end, the hand gripping it is the truth of it. You can change something at the back, and it changes the angle of the hand, and the front can feel different, even though you didn't alter it. So, you can't really say, "changing X is bad in general", because you have to know the entire shape - for some mice making a change would be bad, but for another, the same change would be good. Its pretty complicated when you get into it


----------



## Zakman

@bst

Any new Beta IX and Beta IE pictures? Please make the Beta IX as close to the WMO as possible


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> @bst
> 
> Any new Beta IX and Beta IE pictures? Please make the Beta IX as close to the WMO as possible


I'm going to show them as soon as they're ready 

I guess I can show you the test shape model for the Beta shape, its not really a "mouse", but its the same shape (pretty much anyway... there is 0.5mm added to the bottom to simulate mouse feet, and other little details, like no rounded corners on the base):
https://snag.gy/GDUdog.jpg
https://snag.gy/wOudnS.jpg
https://snag.gy/qcZPFa.jpg
https://snag.gy/eza17v.jpg


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> I'm going to show them as soon as they're ready
> 
> I guess I can show you the test shape model for the Beta shape, its not really a "mouse", but its the same shape (pretty much anyway... there is 0.5mm added to the bottom to simulate mouse feet, and other little details, like no rounded corners on the base):
> https://snag.gy/GDUdog.jpg
> https://snag.gy/wOudnS.jpg
> https://snag.gy/qcZPFa.jpg
> https://snag.gy/eza17v.jpg



Can't ******* wait, keep doing great work <3


----------



## Aventadoor

In my opinion, the front should be rounded/curved, for max comfort. Why?
If you have large hands and use three finger grip, the ring finger often reach further than the mice. Having a sharp edge causes annoyance over time. Hope you understand what I mean, not english.
Oh and I dont use S1 with left hand really... But I got a right hand in a cast duo to a boxers fracture...

An example of a rounded front would be Zowie FK, etc. Not S1


----------



## Klopfer

at this point , for me its more annoying on mice like Kone Pure ... sometimes my skin is in between shell and M1/M2 ... didnt happen on mice which has it designed like most Logitech , e.g. G pro wireless


----------



## bst

Aventadoor said:


> In my opinion, the front should be rounded/curved, for max comfort. Why?
> If you have large hands and use three finger grip, the ring finger often reach further than the mice. Having a sharp edge causes annoyance over time. Hope you understand what I mean, not english.
> Oh and I dont use S1 with left hand really... But I got a right hand in a cast duo to a boxers fracture...
> 
> An example of a rounded front would be Zowie FK, etc. Not S1


I'd be surprised if your finger reaches it, I mean if you look at the scream one there, it tapers back from the very front, so its sides are a lot shorter than they would be if it was straight at the front like the Astrum. (eg: https://snag.gy/d5rD7V.jpg )

I can't easily change that part of the design now (at least, in a big way), but I can try and put a smooth edge on the front, like this: https://snag.gy/ha0tLB.jpg . At least then, if your fingers reach it, it won't be sharp


----------



## xmr1

bst said:


> I'm going to show them as soon as they're ready
> 
> I guess I can show you the test shape model for the Beta shape, its not really a "mouse", but its the same shape (pretty much anyway... there is 0.5mm added to the bottom to simulate mouse feet, and other little details, like no rounded corners on the base):
> https://snag.gy/GDUdog.jpg
> https://snag.gy/wOudnS.jpg
> https://snag.gy/qcZPFa.jpg
> https://snag.gy/eza17v.jpg


Now this looks excellent.


----------



## BurningPlayd0h

Im sure its been mentioned earlier but is the cable coded the same as the Venator? Just wondering if I should plan to re-pin my paracord.


----------



## the1freeMan

qsxcv said:


> pretty much everything you wrote here is wrong and i've explained this in the past but the ocn search is too bad to find the post
> 
> like honestly wth happened to the ocn forum software i can't even find the images i post to threads and stuff
> 
> edit:
> here https://www.overclock.net/forum/24533094-post1381.html





popups said:


> I am not liking the new forums. Search is horrible and advanced posting is bad.
> 
> Are you sticking to the 3360 and what is the final weight?


You guys are talking like they stopped working on it.. thinking about it I actually haven't seen much work done lately. New admin guys you think this is good? Fix the image search, advanced editor and rep system ASAP, it's starting to get unbearable.
The most worrying part is that I don't see this stuff on the punch list. Fix or this forum dies.


----------



## DazzaInOz

the1freeMan said:


> Fix or this forum dies.


I GOT A GUN! I GOT A GUN...on the end of this G Pro and I'm not afraid to use it!!!![scrolls to M4A4]


----------



## empyr

Any new updates in the horizon @bst ?


----------



## badben25

the1freeMan said:


> You guys are talking like they stopped working on it.. thinking about it I actually haven't seen much work done lately. New admin guys you think this is good? Fix the image search, advanced editor and rep system ASAP, it's starting to get unbearable.
> The most worrying part is that I don't see this stuff on the punch list. Fix or this forum dies.


Not to mention the horrible mobile version of the forums


----------



## Zakman

empyr said:


> Any new updates in the horizon @bst ?


He did post an update on Reddit.


----------



## tygeezy

What is the grip width on beta ambidextrous?


----------



## lainx

Hm, regarding the reddit post and the new sensor setup. While yes, tool-less design is a plus and yea, screw treadings that small usually strips really easy, i'm kind of worried if the plastic "notches" won't wear and tear super fast?
Maybe it's been answered before but i assume it's somewhat "heightened" so that it's impossible for the sensor to move itself during gameplay?
I just get the feeling that the sensor adjustment design will fail at some point.. Then again, i'm somewhat biased since i never really needed/wanted that function anyways.
Super excited to see the end product!


----------



## empyr

Zakman said:


> He did post an update on Reddit.



Thank you.


----------



## ryan92084

lainx said:


> Hm, regarding the reddit post and the new sensor setup. While yes, tool-less design is a plus and yea, screw treadings that small usually strips really easy, i'm kind of worried if the plastic "notches" won't wear and tear super fast?
> Maybe it's been answered before but i assume it's somewhat "heightened" so that it's impossible for the sensor to move itself during gameplay?
> I just get the feeling that the sensor adjustment design will fail at some point.. Then again, i'm somewhat biased since i never really needed/wanted that function anyways.
> Super excited to see the end product!


Unless you are habitually adjusting the sensor or tossing it around i doubt it'd be an issue.


----------



## bst

lainx said:


> Hm, regarding the reddit post and the new sensor setup. While yes, tool-less design is a plus and yea, screw treadings that small usually strips really easy, i'm kind of worried if the plastic "notches" won't wear and tear super fast?
> Maybe it's been answered before but i assume it's somewhat "heightened" so that it's impossible for the sensor to move itself during gameplay?
> I just get the feeling that the sensor adjustment design will fail at some point.. Then again, i'm somewhat biased since i never really needed/wanted that function anyways.
> Super excited to see the end product!


You don't move the sensor against the resistance of the toothed edge, its not a clicky kind of adjuster. The idea is you push it in, so it clears the toothed edge, then you can smoothly move it backwards or forwards, then when you release it back down, the toothed edges come together and it locks it in place. So as long as its used as intended, the toothed edges won't wear away.

You can't force it to move against the toothed edge - the way it is designed is so that you won't have enough grip for your fingers to do that. So to get more grip, you naturally push harder, which is what you're supposed to do anyway  So its much easier and more obvious to use its as intended than it is to do it wrong. 

On both sides of the sensor holder are tabs which push horizontally against a slanted wall in the base, so its pushing sideways, like this \-->\, which makes it also push downwards because of the angle. It "wants" to come to rest at its lowest and widest point, and it resists being moved upwards or sideways. Over time, it might lose a small amount of tension, but you could easily fix it by sticking a small amount of blu-tack in the tab-holders, something easy to do since the mouse is designed to be opened. Even so, its never going to rattle around like crazy, it's got guides in other places which limit its side to side movement to 0.2mm, so even at its worst ("failed") point, its not going to be anything dramatic.


----------



## aCz-

This waiting game is killing me already. I'm not the most patience guy.  

After checking new pictures from your indi page I have some question. @bst whats your gripstyle? Because by looking at mice it feels like you mostly use fingertip. Side buttons looks far behind. Not the biggest issue for me because I use nixeus revel atm, pretty used to it but anyway.


----------



## bst

aCz- said:


> This waiting game is killing me already. I'm not the most patience guy.
> 
> After checking new pictures from your indi page I have some question. @bst whats your gripstyle? Because by looking at mice it feels like you mostly use fingertip. Side buttons looks far behind. Not the biggest issue for me because I use nixeus revel atm, pretty used to it but anyway.


I use fingertip in cursor based/third person games, and palm in FPS. The side buttons are positioned for a nice middle ground between the two. They probably look further back than they really are, they begin 50mm away from the rear, and the Revel's are about 40mm from the rear.


----------



## Zakman

Cheers for your latest update bst.

One somewhat related question - have you decided on the dimensions of the ergonomic right-hand side yet for the Beta shape? I think I remember you saying you wanted to make a few changes to it.


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> Cheers for your latest update bst.
> 
> One somewhat related question - have you decided on the dimensions of the ergonomic right-hand side yet for the Beta shape? I think I remember you saying you wanted to make a few changes to it.


It had some imperfections in its surface which I didn't like (because over time it had been grafted with bits to change the shape without redoing it from scratch), but other than that it was my favourite, it needed to change to fit with the new overall shape though, but other than that it'll be the same kind of feel.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> It had some imperfections in its surface which I didn't like (because over time it had been grafted with bits to change the shape without redoing it from scratch), but other than that it was my favourite, it needed to change to fit with the new overall shape though, but other than that it'll be the same kind of feel.


Sounds mint. After the models are sent to the tooling factory, do you reckon you could make a quick video on the clicks of the mouse? Interested to see what all the clicks sound like in practise.


----------



## RaleighStClair

@bst

Is there anyway you could get a hold of the UL ''Phantom'' cord or the ''shoelace'' cord that DM 1 FPS uses? I ask because these two mice came out at roughly the same time with a very similar cord that's kind of changed the game a little bit when it comes to mouse cords and cables -- I wonder if they are using the same cable supplier?

These Mouse chords/cables are just on another level compared to pretty much everything out there except paracord. It makes a huge difference and almost makes wireless mice seem like it's superfluous.


----------



## iBerggman

RaleighStClair said:


> @bst
> 
> Is there anyway you could get a hold of the UL ''Phantom'' cord or the ''shoelace'' cord that DM 1 FPS uses? I ask because these two mice came out at roughly the same time with a very similar cord that's kind of changed the game a little bit when it comes to mouse cords and cables -- I wonder if they are using the same cable supplier?
> 
> These Mouse chords/cables are just on another level compared to pretty much everything out there except paracord. It makes a huge difference and almost makes wireless mice seem like it's superfluous.


Yes, the Phantom cable has been mentioned a couple times already both on here and on reddit. IIRC bst stated that he got a similar sample from Motospeed and suspects it might be the same cable. In the end both Finalmouse and Dreammachines also use Motospeed for manufacturing so that would make sense.


----------



## bst

Yes I can get the shoelace/phantom cable, it's been around for quite a while. Well... Years really, since all it is, is an unshielded braided cable 😄 

What does everyone prefer though? If the cable is otherwise the same - braided or rubber? If it's braided, how about a pattern, or just plain black?


----------



## pez

I like the phantom cable a lot. Better than the paracord CeeSA ones because it is a tad stiffer and less prone to kinking up. It also stays in my mouse bungees a lot better. 

That being said, I’ve always thought Razers cables were great, too.


----------



## Ukkooh

bst said:


> Yes I can get the shoelace/phantom cable, it's been around for quite a while. Well... Years really, since all it is, is an unshielded braided cable 😄
> 
> What does everyone prefer though? If the cable is otherwise the same - braided or rubber? If it's braided, how about a pattern, or just plain black?


Anything else than braided if it doesnt affect the flexibility.


----------



## gipetto

I think cables look best when they match the colour of the mouse. I'll pass on the braiding though. it tends to kink cables.


----------



## iBerggman

bst said:


> Yes I can get the shoelace/phantom cable, it's been around for quite a while. Well... Years really, since all it is, is an unshielded braided cable 😄
> 
> What does everyone prefer though? If the cable is otherwise the same - braided or rubber? If it's braided, how about a pattern, or just plain black?


Braided if the sleeve is loose fitting so the cable inside can move a little like on the paracords, otherwise plain rubber. If the sleeve is stretched tight the cable becomes way too stiff imo and also seems to kink and wear out faster in the areas were it was coiled up in the package. Rubber isn't completely pain free either, I've had some cables that would stick to the table just from how grippy the material was however in the end I still prefer that if the alternative is a stiff braided one.


----------



## RaleighStClair

pez said:


> I like the phantom cable a lot. Better than the paracord CeeSA ones because it is a tad stiffer and less prone to kinking up. It also stays in my mouse bungees a lot better.
> 
> That being said, I’ve always thought Razers cables were great, too.


So much this.

I much prefer the PHANTOMCORD and the ''shoelace'' cable on the DM1 FPS compared to actual paracord for these exact same reasons.

Everyone I know that has used paracord in their mice have issues with the cord kinking under their mouse during swipes. It is infuriating. These issues do not exist with the above mentioned paracord *like* cables.


----------



## gipetto

>Rubber isn't completely pain free either, I've had some cables that would stick to the table just from how grippy the material

I've had the same issue. I think rubber isn't a great material for mouse cables. some type of flexible plastic like is used in trailer lighting cables would be superior.


----------



## bst

You can get the rubber cables textured so they're less sticky, the Aurora had that kind of cable. It basically had lines cut down the length of it so the cross section look sort of like a 10 pointed star if that makes sense. I think it makes it s bit more flexible too.


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> You can get the rubber cables textured so they're less sticky, the Aurora had that kind of cable. It basically had lines cut down the length of it so the cross section look sort of like a 10 pointed star if that makes sense. I think it makes it s bit more flexible too.



Just curious but, I assume the color of the cable, regardless of you what you end up using will be black/grey? Would it be very expensive to color match the cable to the mouse?


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> Yes I can get the shoelace/phantom cable, it's been around for quite a while. Well... Years really, since all it is, is an unshielded braided cable 😄
> 
> What does everyone prefer though? If the cable is otherwise the same - braided or rubber? If it's braided, how about a pattern, or just plain black?


Tried the DM1 FPS recently, love that cable as well. Stock Venator cable was pretty good too, but after a few weeks I've decided to change it to a paracord one anyways. Stock Aurora cable is horrible if you ask me, very very stiff—nonetheless the grooving really makes it less sticky.


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> Just curious but, I assume the color of the cable regardless of you will use is black/grey? Would it be very expensive to color match the cable to the mouse?


It might be possible, I'll ask, but I think they might ask for a minimum quantity for each colour. It'll be easier to do it with the braided ones.



vanir1337 said:


> Tried the DM1 FPS recently, love that cable as well. Stock Venator cable was pretty good too, but after a few weeks I've decided to change it to a paracord one anyways. Stock Aurora cable is horrible if you ask me, very very stiff—nonetheless the grooving really makes it less sticky.


The only reason why the Aurora cable is so stiff is because of its shield, I have the unshielded version and it's on a similar level to the phantom. I like it, but it doesn't look as nice as braided.


----------



## RaleighStClair

bst said:


> It might be possible, I'll ask, but I think they might ask for a minimum quantity for each colour. It'll be easier to do it with the braided ones.
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason why the Aurora cable is so stiff is because of its shield, I have the unshielded version and it's on a similar level to the phantom. I like it, but it doesn't look as nice as braided.


At the end of the day rubber, regardless of the weight/shielding, will still 'flop' around the desk (for us non-bungie users, which i imagine would be the majority that purchase this mouse). Braided is the way to go here. The various colors/pattern options (that could be made available) is icing on the top.

Seems like a no brainer -- especially since you have access to the same amazing cable as the DM1 FPS.


----------



## pez

Yeah I’ve had rubber cables like SS 310 series get marked from my Razer Bungee, but not the cable’s fault. I’d still vote for braided, though.


----------



## tacomn

Which color you like better black or white? I am thinking of switching my color choice if its not to late.


----------



## tacomn

I mean it sucks to get rolled up one, but its not that hard to roll it the opposite way and unbend it.


----------



## bst

Ok, next question, assuming I can get the cables coloured - what's best, patterned, eg. Black and red striped, or pure red?


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Ok, next question, assuming I can get the cables coloured - what's best, patterned, eg. Black and red striped, or pure red?


 Personally a pure color person


----------



## Fitzcaraldo

A premium option would be to have a cable patterned in the same prime colours as the mouse in question. Given the additional amount of work needed a neutral colour like black is likely the more sensible choice.


----------



## vanir1337

I'd go with pure too.


----------



## gipetto

>what's best, patterned, eg. Black and red striped, or pure red?
any patterning will tend to cause video distortions in online streams, that's why wearing tweed for tv broadcasts is discouraged. possibly using a pure colour will eliminate that.


----------



## Zhuni

Does it need to be red? Red is really played out on gamer equipment. But yeah I'd vote pure


----------



## bst

Zhuni said:


> Does it need to be red? Red is really played out on gamer equipment. But yeah I'd vote pure


Just using red as an example, if the cords are colour coded to match the mouse colour. So if that's possible, a white mouse would have a white cable and so on. But if it's not possible, I'll go with something neutral like black or dark grey for all the mice.


----------



## DazzaInOz

Pure color. Really not a fan of patterned cables. Matching with the mouse would be awesome but black is fine.


----------



## gipetto

If the base is black on all the mice and colour matching to the shell is not possible then a black cable would match the base.


----------



## pez

Yeah, as much as I like my phantom cord, the default black would be great for me, too.


----------



## lainx

bst said:


> You don't move the sensor against the resistance of the toothed edge, its not a clicky kind of adjuster. The idea is you push it in, so it clears the toothed edge, then you can smoothly move it backwards or forwards, then when you release it back down, the toothed edges come together and it locks it in place. So as long as its used as intended, the toothed edges won't wear away.
> 
> You can't force it to move against the toothed edge - the way it is designed is so that you won't have enough grip for your fingers to do that. So to get more grip, you naturally push harder, which is what you're supposed to do anyway  So its much easier and more obvious to use its as intended than it is to do it wrong.
> 
> On both sides of the sensor holder are tabs which push horizontally against a slanted wall in the base, so its pushing sideways, like this \-->\, which makes it also push downwards because of the angle. It "wants" to come to rest at its lowest and widest point, and it resists being moved upwards or sideways. Over time, it might lose a small amount of tension, but you could easily fix it by sticking a small amount of blu-tack in the tab-holders, something easy to do since the mouse is designed to be opened. Even so, its never going to rattle around like crazy, it's got guides in other places which limit its side to side movement to 0.2mm, so even at its worst ("failed") point, its not going to be anything dramatic.


Cool, it's going to be interesting seeing how you've designed it!
I've skimmed through these last posts and there seems to be discussion regarding the cable. 
I'm casting a vote for just a pure black color. I think that's what everyone is expecting anyways.
Having the cable color coded to the shell would be cool though and something i imagine a lot would love!
Material-wise i'd say as close to a paracord if paracord is not an option. Haven't tried the "shoelace" cable though... 
Personally, i'll be switching to my own paracord anyways.


----------



## nyshak

I've never had trouble with my paracord getting caught beneath the mouse. Idk, but that sounds like an unfortunate combination of sensitivity, the way how you swipe/lift the mouse, and how the cable is set up on the desk. They way my setup works I cannot do that.


----------



## pez

nyshak said:


> I've never had trouble with my paracord getting caught beneath the mouse. Idk, but that sounds like an unfortunate combination of sensitivity, the way how you swipe/lift the mouse, and how the cable is set up on the desk. They way my setup works I cannot do that.


I usually game at 800DPI and from the middle of my mousepad to the edge translates to in game rotation of 180-270 degrees. This is also with a bungee. There's people that game at much lower DPI, so if it's an issue for me, it's going to be an issue for others.


----------



## RaleighStClair

fytytfytfy


----------



## Leopardi

RaleighStClair said:


> Any word on the cable? Man I hate to be that guy, but I dont think I can use this mouse with a rubber cable anymore. Logitech has its proprietary wireless tech. It seems like everyone else is moving to whatever this shoelace/phantom cord is. I ordered 12 astrums black (I have spent over $1300 USD on backing this project, it means something to me -- as weird as that sounds. I want BST and NINOX to succeed.), but now that I have used a DM1 FPS, with its cord (and a UL Phantom, which has a terrible shape and build quality) and a G Pro Wireless, i ill not go back to a rubber cable. Period. The times have changed.
> 
> BST If you go with a rubber cable I think you are moving towards the back of the bus.


Isn't the G Pro Wireless cord rubber? It's supposed to be good.

Anyway seems like the G Pro still has accidental clicks, so the hype went past me. Waiting for Astrum still.


----------



## chort

RaleighStClair said:


> Any word on the cable? Man I hate to be that guy, but I dont think I can use this mouse with a rubber cable anymore. Logitech has its proprietary wireless tech. It seems like everyone else is moving to whatever this shoelace/phantom cord is. I ordered 12 astrums black (I have spent over $1300 USD on backing this project, it means something to me -- as weird as that sounds. I want BST and NINOX to succeed.), but now that I have used a DM1 FPS, with its cord (and a UL Phantom, which has a terrible shape and build quality) and a G Pro Wireless, i ill not go back to a rubber cable. Period. The times have changed.
> 
> BST If you go with a rubber cable I think you are moving towards the back of the bus.


he already stated multiple times he can only know what cable he can use when the mouse will be manufactured because he needs to test to see what cables pass, there is a chance that the shoelace/phantomcord don't pass and Finalmouse and DM are doing it without permission and may face heavy fines.
he said the most flexible cable that passes will get used, it's out of his control unfortunately.


----------



## Ukkooh

RaleighStClair said:


> Any word on the cable? Man I hate to be that guy, but I dont think I can use this mouse with a rubber cable anymore. Logitech has its proprietary wireless tech. It seems like everyone else is moving to whatever this shoelace/phantom cord is. I ordered 12 astrums black (I have spent over $1300 USD on backing this project, it means something to me -- as weird as that sounds. I want BST and NINOX to succeed.), but now that I have used a DM1 FPS, with its cord (and a UL Phantom, which has a terrible shape and build quality) and a G Pro Wireless, i ill not go back to a rubber cable. Period. The times have changed.
> 
> BST If you go with a rubber cable I think you are moving towards the back of the bus.





bst said:


> Yes I can get the shoelace/phantom cable, it's been around for quite a while. Well... Years really, since all it is, is an unshielded braided cable 😄
> 
> What does everyone prefer though? If the cable is otherwise the same - braided or rubber? If it's braided, how about a pattern, or just plain black?


Here is bst's message about the cable from a few pages back.


----------



## pez

chort said:


> he already stated multiple times he can only know what cable he can use when the mouse will be manufactured because he needs to test to see what cables pass, there is a chance that the shoelace/phantomcord don't pass and Finalmouse and DM are doing it without permission and may face heavy fines.
> he said the most flexible cable that passes will get used, it's out of his control unfortunately.


He just recently (within the last 5 pages) asked for direct input on the cable, so I doubt it’s out of his control as much as you’re implying.


----------



## bst

pez said:


> He just recently (within the last 5 pages) asked for direct input on the cable, so I doubt it’s out of his control as much as you’re implying.


The only thing that I can't completely control is if the unshielded cable passes or not. But everything else, like colours and materials I can choose pretty much anything. The only thing the factory has trouble getting is silicone wires.

What will be tested is a shielded rubber cable, and the shoelace/phantom cable. Hopefully the shoelace/phantom passes. I have put on the PCB some EM filters / ferrite beads (little magnets the signals go through), so they should help.

Unfortunately, you can't shield the shoelace/phantom cable without having a rubber sleeve inside, the rubber sleeve molds around the shield and keeps it in place. So braided is good for unshielded, and rubber is good for shielded.


----------



## popups

I rather have a less flexible cable than to have a braided exterior. The braid annoys me as I play because it rubs the edge of my mouse pad. I would have to change the cable out if it doesn't have a rubber cover only a plastic braid.


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

^ just use a bungee then


----------



## popups

Kommando Kodiak said:


> ^ just use a bungee then


Impossible. Does not fit my play-style. And I am not going to buy something because of a stupid gimmick and I am not going to take it everywhere I go. I already don't like how the main switches are going to be optical. I don't need another annoying thing that practically can't be changed. With other braided cables I can just cut the braid off.

Is the 3389 they offer really better than a 3360? I don't remember. I only remember many complaints about the DeathAdder. Logitech switching to some cheap looking sensor and Ninox switching to the 3389 rather than trying to get better SROMs doesn't fill me with positivity for the future of gaming sensors.

I looked at the latest renders of the mouse. I am not a fan of the overall shape. I don't think the core piece is wide enough; it appears to be more like a Zowie AM than a Sensei or WMO. The buttons roll down at the ends similar to the AM instead of being more flat like the WMO. Seems more like an AM with aggressive slanted V sides. I think the shape/design has a long way to go before deciding to machine the molds. Still haven't seen any pictures of prototypes compared to other mice.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

popups said:


> Is the 3389 they offer really better than a 3360? I don't remember. I only remember many complaints about the DeathAdder. Logitech switching to some cheap looking sensor and Ninox switching to the 3389 rather than trying to get better SROMs doesn't fill me with positivity for the future of gaming sensors.


Ummm? OoooK then.


----------



## RaleighStClair

popups said:


> I rather have a less flexible cable than to have a braided exterior. The braid annoys me as I play because it rubs the edge of my mouse pad. I would have to change the cable out if it doesn't have a rubber cover only a plastic braid.


Have you used a DM1 FPS or a UL Phantom? It's better than paracord. Why? Because if you *dont* use a mouse bungie, the paracord *will* bunch up under your mouse at times. It is awful. With this faux paracord, the cable is stiff enough to not have the downsides of paracord, but incredibly light like paracord, but not have this major issue.


It's a win/win.


----------



## untouchable247

RaleighStClair said:


> Have you used a DM1 FPS or a UL Phantom? It's better than paracord. Why? Because if you *dont* use a mouse bungie, the paracord *will* bunch up under your mouse at times. It is awful. With this faux paracord, the cable is stiff enough to not have the downsides of paracord, but incredibly light like paracord, but not have this major issue.
> 
> 
> It's a win/win.


Agreed, got 2 mice with paracord mods, love them but the cable of the DM1 FPS is actually better because it's not too flexible and soft.


----------



## lainx

Haven't tried the DM1 FPS so i can't judge that but i can't see how it could be better than a paracord. The downside with a paracord is that it won't come with the shield wrapping, which i've discovered is kind of necessary if your outlets ain't grounded.

Regarding the paracord getting under your mouse; Just tape it to the back of your monitor 4head.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1568863-best-mouse-bungee-2.html#post24374631
(I've had this similar setup for years now)


----------



## bst

popups said:


> Impossible. Does not fit my play-style. And I am not going to buy something because of a stupid gimmick and I am not going to take it everywhere I go. I already don't like how the main switches are going to be optical. I don't need another annoying thing that practically can't be changed. With other braided cables I can just cut the braid off.


In the end I have to go with what most people want, but I will be making a pack for the enthusiast, which consists of mechanical switch/encoder PCBs. I could always add a rubber cable to it as well. Its not something I want to include with every Astrum, because it just raises the price for everyone, and I don't think many people will even ever use it, something like <5%.



popups said:


> Is the 3389 they offer really better than a 3360? I don't remember. I only remember many complaints about the DeathAdder. Logitech switching to some cheap looking sensor and Ninox switching to the 3389 rather than trying to get better SROMs doesn't fill me with positivity for the future of gaming sensors.


I think overall, it is nicer than the 3360, theres no real reason not to use it. Its not a major step up, but then its also not a major step up in price either. I don't see any downsides to using it either.

A small company like Ninox can't get new SROMs, but I'm not sure what I would even ask for, the 3389 already has almost everything needed. The only thing its not amazing at is power efficiency for wireless.



popups said:


> I looked at the latest renders of the mouse. I am not a fan of the overall shape. I don't think the core piece is wide enough; it appears to be more like a Zowie AM than a Sensei or WMO. The buttons roll down at the ends similar to the AM instead of being more flat like the WMO. Seems more like an AM with aggressive slanted V sides. I think the shape/design has a long way to go before deciding to machine the molds. Still haven't seen any pictures of prototypes compared to other mice.


The Beta shape feels more like a WMO, and less like an AM, its probably just not showing up very well in the pictures. It doesn't have slanted sides, and the core piece probably just looks thinner from above due to the extra length at the front.


----------



## gipetto

I happened to read a comment somewhere? about how overtravel shortens microswitch life and superior designs prevent this occuring by having a shim on the button actuator, which stops the microswitch button from pressing fully. Is there provision for this protective feature in your design?
Also, have you asked your programmer about implementing sleep mode to extend sensor longevity since you wired up the necessary pin in the design?


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> I happened to read a comment somewhere? about how overtravel shortens microswitch life and superior designs prevent this occuring by having a shim on the button actuator, which stops the microswitch button from pressing fully. Is there provision for this protective feature in your design?


Yes that is in the design, another thing it helps to do is to spring the button back up when you release it, if it goes too far down, it doesn't spring back up again as easily.



gipetto said:


> Also, have you asked your programmer about implementing sleep mode to extend sensor longevity since you wired up the necessary pin in the design?


Theres no need for any pin, its just a basic feature of the sensor you can activate, so its as easy as it gets. Actually sleeping is the default now, you can turn it off in the software's advanced options. I could also open up the options so you can adjust the sleep mode settings, but I still need to look into that (not hard to do, just a question of whether its worth it, or if changing those settings is actually useful to the user).


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Yes that is in the design, another thing it helps to do is to spring the button back up when you release it, if it goes too far down, it doesn't spring back up again as easily.
> 
> 
> 
> Theres no need for any pin, its just a basic feature of the sensor you can activate, so its as easy as it gets. Actually sleeping is the default now, you can turn it off in the software's advanced options. I could also open up the options so you can adjust the sleep mode settings, but I still need to look into that (not hard to do, just a question of whether its worth it, or if changing those settings is actually useful to the user).


Whichever gets the latency as low as possible is all I'm concerned about.


----------



## gipetto

>I could also open up the options so you can adjust the sleep mode settings
It's probably not worth adjusting it, on or off would do. It was on my mind because my mouse stops the screensaver from activating when I fall asleep at the pc. It would be handy for me if you updated the open source code with the sleep mode but I know i'm asking a bit much. Is it possible to buy the lk-e5/e13 optical encoder in small lots anywhere?


----------



## popups

The thing I hate about non optical micro switches is the spring wearing out. I haven't really had issues with the contact not working. The button will still work, but it feels like crap and cause problems clicking like I want it to. I assume optical switches do not fix this issue, they simply get rid of the rust problem.

Can a little dust or a hair cause the optical switches to stop working? If some dust can render the switch completely useless, regardless of age, that would suck way more than the possibility the contact on regular switches wears out.

Can you set the 3389 to a constant frame rate or is that only for the old Avago sensors?


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

popups said:


> I rather have a less flexible cable than to have a braided exterior. The braid annoys me as I play because it rubs the edge of my mouse pad. I would have to change the cable out if it doesn't have a rubber cover only a plastic braid.


Then put masking tape over the edge of your mousepad so the braiding doesnt catch on the sharp edges, thatll fix it.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> >I could also open up the options so you can adjust the sleep mode settings
> It's probably not worth adjusting it, on or off would do. It was on my mind because my mouse stops the screensaver from activating when I fall asleep at the pc. It would be handy for me if you updated the open source code with the sleep mode but I know i'm asking a bit much. Is it possible to buy the lk-e5/e13 optical encoder in small lots anywhere?


If you mean the intellimouse source code, as long as you can compile it, you can just change this line:


Code:


spi_write(0x10, 0x00); // Rest mode & independant X/Y DPI disabled

To this:


Code:


spi_write(0x10, 0x20);

I don't know why your mouse stops your screensaver from activating, it shouldn't, or lets just say that disabling rest mode shouldn't cause that to happen. Actually I just checked the datasheet and it says to disable rest mode for wired mice:

https://snag.gy/7LwD4F.jpg (Config2 is the name for that register above: 0x10).

I think actually I'm going to set it as disabled by default now after reading that, I forgot they said that. I'm sure its fine to leave it off.

I don't know anywhere where you can get the LK encoders, sorry. Here is the part number, maybe you can find them on alibaba or something like that:
https://snag.gy/jJkvaT.jpg

The Astrum uses BE4126500. You might have more luck finding the lower lifespan ones though.



popups said:


> The thing I hate about non optical micro switches is the spring wearing out. I haven't really had issues with the contact not working. The button will still work, but it feels like crap and cause problems clicking like I want it to. I assume optical switches do not fix this issue, they simply get rid of the rust problem.
> 
> Can a little dust or a hair cause the optical switches to stop working? If some dust can render the switch completely useless, regardless of age, that would suck way more than the possibility the contact on regular switches wears out.
> 
> Can you set the 3389 to a constant frame rate or is that only for the old Avago sensors?


The spring will wear out faster if the button can be pushed all the way down, past its operating point. A lot of mice do this. The only one I can remember who limit the travel is Logitech, but I haven't looked at others recently, so maybe companies like Razer and Roccat etc do. But most OEM mice don't.

The way the optical switches work is that they are activated when the IR beam is broken by something blocking its path. A small amount of dust shouldn't affect it at all, and it would take a very long time for so much dust to build up inside that would affect it (it'd have to be full of loads of dust). A little bit of dust isn't really enough to fully block the beam. A hair shouldn't make it inside, maybe a really tiny one, but then it'll still have to navigate its way through to the beam, and even then you'd have to be really unlucky for it to block the beam.

The 3389 has a self adjusting frame rate, you can't manually set it afaik. Maybe there is some secret way of doing it... not sure  But its not in the datasheet.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Just using red as an example, if the cords are colour coded to match the mouse colour. So if that's possible, a white mouse would have a white cable and so on. But if it's not possible, I'll go with something neutral like black or dark grey for all the mice.


PLEASE do that when you're dealing with any White Model because no one else is doing it.

With other colours, make sure the cable tone colour matches the Colour of the casing, that is very important. Ideally you would use Red Cable for a Red Coloured mouse (would be bliss) but if you can't source it then make sure a suitable grey colour is picked instead.

Picking the RIGHT colours will decide whether this new design gets accepted visually or it gets ignored. You would be the ONLY company that cares about how their mouse design looks so do not pass that up particularly in the Gaming Mouse field, which is so tightly packed with Giants in the input game.

You need to stand out from the pack and choosing the appropriate colours will make it far easier to distinguish yourself from all other Black, White and Grey releases.


----------



## gipetto

@bst thanks for the sleep mode fix. It was late last night I posted and I forgot I had my screensaver disabled for watching movies. I used to look at the cursor jittering minutely and assumed it wasn't entering a sleep mode.


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> PLEASE do that when you're dealing with any White Model because no one else is doing it.
> 
> With other colours, make sure the cable tone colour matches the Colour of the casing, that is very important. Ideally you would use Red Cable for a Red Coloured mouse (would be bliss) but if you can't source it then make sure a suitable grey colour is picked instead.
> 
> Picking the RIGHT colours will decide whether this new design gets accepted visually or it gets ignored. You would be the ONLY company that cares about how their mouse design looks so do not pass that up particularly in the Gaming Mouse field, which is so tightly packed with Giants in the input game.
> 
> You need to stand out from the pack and choosing the appropriate colours will make it far easier to distinguish yourself from all other Black, White and Grey releases.


I think the factory is going to do it, but I won't know for sure until its time. They won't 100% agree to it yet, but its mostly just because if they go to their supplier now and ask for it, and they say yes, then when its time to do it, they might forget and say they won't. Its better to ask at the time and follow the agreement through straight away.

The thing that makes it tricky is that some of the colours are pretty low quantity, and I can't order more because they're exclusive. But since its a one-time thing, they should be able to do it this once.

However:
- The white and black Astrums can always have the colour coded cables, since they're higher quantity. Theres no problem with them.
- The colours can be matched with the pantone codes, so the cable colour will match the tone of the mouse. So its a pretty straight forward thing, not difficult for them to do (just they prefer a higher quantity).

There are things that can be done to make it happen, like offer to pay for excess dye, or have the factory remind them how good of a customer they've been...  Although, I think if I do this again, there will be less colours, I think I done a bit too much with this one, and the green one was almost pointless since it only sold 18


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> @bst thanks for the sleep mode fix. It was late last night I posted and I forgot I had my screensaver disabled for watching movies. I used to look at the cursor jittering minutely and assumed it wasn't entering a sleep mode.


The cursor shouldn't jitter at all if the mouse is still Oo
What mouse are you using?


----------



## gipetto

it's a ball intellimouse 1.3a with the tindie pcb and original optical encoder. the sleep mode change seems to have stopped the jitter. Maybe it's just crosstalk in the rats nest wiring. the jitter was barely noticeable, maybe only 1mm on screen, and considering the bottom of the barrel mouse feet i use it wasn't moving either. I don't want to drag this thread off topic but when it was relevent to the astrum firmware I didn't feel bad bringing it up.


----------



## bst

Yeah, lets not take it too off topic, the only thing I can suggest to you is maybe the sensor isn't at the optimal height, it will jitter if it isn't. The base of the 3360 sensor lens should be 2.4mm away from the surface. If it already is, I don't know what else to suggest


----------



## gipetto

@bst Ever since I used an alps encoder I've noticed an issue with bounce that I didn't have with the optical scroll. Maybe 1 click in 20 the wheel scrolls the wrong direction. I used the butronix encoder library with an older mouse and found no bouncing issue due to its state machine design. Here's an earlier version he wrote which is in a single file and easily ported to avr c. I think the half step array is not relevant for the ec10e. You'll probably be alright since it is optical but it would be a definite upgrade to the code.
https://forum.sparkfun.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13956&p=123834#p134313


----------



## lainx

A white/gold or black/gold combo as a limited edition down the line would be amazing, for example


----------



## charlieputh

will this mouse be able to go to 2000 hz i think thats really the only thing left would be amazing for us 240 hz users as blurbusters.com confirms 1000 hz is still not optimal


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> There are things that can be done to make it happen, like offer to pay for excess dye, or have the factory remind them how good of a customer they've been...  Although, I think if I do this again, there will be less colours, I think I done a bit too much with this one, and the green one was almost pointless since it only sold 18


The GREEN one will be the most valuable due to it's Rarity :thumb: .

Because you are a way smaller manufacturer of Gaming mice, why not offer very limited colour versions in 50 or 100 units?

You'll be surprised when customers find out that there will never be anymore made mice using that colour specification and watch them fly off your shelves due to that new found reality.


----------



## r01d

@bst  @qsxcv

As you do the pcb/mcu firmware your own, would it be possible to let the sensor act like the MLT04 in regards to diagonal movements? (e.g. let it register diagonal movements not as -1x0 or 1x0 but -1x1 or 1x1?)

Because as many others, for me personally there is nothing more raw and snappy than the MLT04 sensor feeling.
It just feels more natural even though it might not be the "correct" way of processing this.

I am confident that a lot of people would agree on this and you would completely change the game if this mouse would transform the MLT04 feeling to a higher DPI, max speed, polling rate etc.

cheers


----------



## gipetto

@bst I finished the port of buxtronixs encoder code. It seems to work perfectly. the encoder still misscrolls from time to time but now the movement doesn't register for the faulty scroll. check it out, and if you think it's good enough add it into the astrum code.

edit, ran into an issue where the char used caused glitching at 1000hz, solved issue by replacing data types with uint8_t and smaller.


----------



## Zakman

@bst Have the molds been sent off to the factory yet or are there still bits to finalise on the mouse?


----------



## bst

charlieputh said:


> will this mouse be able to go to 2000 hz i think thats really the only thing left would be amazing for us 240 hz users as blurbusters.com confirms 1000 hz is still not optimal


Sorry but the mouse doesn't support 2000hz, I think maybe that sweetlow driver might work though, but I haven't tried it yet. Maybe I could add something more official in future, but for now its 1000hz. 



Elrick said:


> The GREEN one will be the most valuable due to it's Rarity :thumb: .
> 
> Because you are a way smaller manufacturer of Gaming mice, why not offer very limited colour versions in 50 or 100 units?
> 
> You'll be surprised when customers find out that there will never be anymore made mice using that colour specification and watch them fly off your shelves due to that new found reality.


Its not a bad idea but there are a couple of problems:
- The factory doesn't like doing it (too low quantity)
- Even if 100 flew off the shelves, its not very much and not sustainable (you can't use that colour again, and there are only so many colours).



r01d said:


> @bst
> @qsxcv
> 
> As you do the pcb/mcu firmware your own, would it be possible to let the sensor act like the MLT04 in regards to diagonal movements? (e.g. let it register diagonal movements not as -1x0 or 1x0 but -1x1 or 1x1?)
> 
> Because as many others, for me personally there is nothing more raw and snappy than the MLT04 sensor feeling.
> It just feels more natural even though it might not be the "correct" way of processing this.
> 
> I am confident that a lot of people would agree on this and you would completely change the game if this mouse would transform the MLT04 feeling to a higher DPI, max speed, polling rate etc.
> 
> cheers


Maybe, but would probably need some kind of buffer, adding some latency. I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be. 

These sensors do already do it in specific situations though, like if you move it fast enough, it'll do it. Its only really at the slow speeds that it kind of bunches up.

It would be something I'd have to research, and think about, a bit like the 2000hz above. So at the moment I'm just making sure it works well, and I can try things like this in updates later.



gipetto said:


> @bst I finished the port of buxtronixs encoder code. It seems to work perfectly. the encoder still misscrolls from time to time but now the movement doesn't register for the faulty scroll. check it out, and if you think it's good enough add it into the astrum code.
> 
> edit, ran into an issue where the char used caused glitching at 1000hz, solved issue by replacing data types with uint8_t and smaller.


Cool, thanks, will give it a try and let you know how it goes 



Zakman said:


> @bst Have the molds been sent off to the factory yet or are there still bits to finalise on the mouse?


I have the 3D printed mouse now, and it came out really well. I was a bit worried about some things not working how I'd imagined, but it was all perfectly fine. 

I have a few little things to add to the model, but nothing major, just a couple more strengthening ribs and so on. I'm not going to make another 3D print to test those, its pretty straight forward.

I think on Monday/Tuesday I'll be sending the models for the tooling, I'm still waiting to get the ergonomic sides, I just want to make sure they're ok before I send it. They should be fine, I just want to make sure.


----------



## charlieputh

awesome am fine with 1000 hz but please do try and get too 2000 hz for that finale leap for us 240 hz users


----------



## P54J

Is there release date for the mouse (for people that not backed up kickstarter)?


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I have the 3D printed mouse now, and it came out really well. I was a bit worried about some things not working how I'd imagined, but it was all perfectly fine.
> 
> I have a few little things to add to the model, but nothing major, just a couple more strengthening ribs and so on. I'm not going to make another 3D print to test those, its pretty straight forward.
> 
> I think on Monday/Tuesday I'll be sending the models for the tooling, I'm still waiting to get the ergonomic sides, I just want to make sure they're ok before I send it. They should be fine, I just want to make sure.


Cheers for the update, just nice to hear it's going well  Looking forward to your next update


----------



## 7175

Thanks for update @bst. Everything sounds like it's going well so far.


----------



## tacomn

I remember you saying you may add a thumb groove. Did this ever happen?


----------



## Avalar

@bst How accurate is the DPI btw? Is it like Logitech's?


----------



## nyshak

How well does the 3389 track on white cloth pads, does anyone know?


----------



## gipetto

I just got another package held by customs and excise. My postman warned me I'd be expecting a tax audit since they have been doing so quite frequently. I want any taxes to be paid if possible, on my package at least.


----------



## bst

tacomn said:


> I remember you saying you may add a thumb groove. Did this ever happen?


No, could always 3D print one though 



Avalar said:


> @bst How accurate is the DPI btw? Is it like Logitech's?


Its pretty accurate, but I don't want to go into it yet because the 3D printed shells aren't as accurate as the injection molded shells, so its better to see how it is with those. However I am using the exact measurements from the 3389 datasheet, and you know the firmware is very much unprocessed with regards to tracking, so it should be as good as the 3389 can be.



nyshak said:


> How well does the 3389 track on white cloth pads, does anyone know?


Not sure, but if you have a 3360, it should be the same, its pretty much the same sensor.



gipetto said:


> I just got another package held by customs and excise. My postman warned me I'd be expecting a tax audit since they have been doing so quite frequently. I want any taxes to be paid if possible, on my package at least.


Where do you live? If its the US then the tax will be paid.


----------



## gipetto

The republic of ireland. not sure but I think there's free trade within the eu. I think customs fees will have to be paid from us, as I have done so before.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing...nal-use/buying-goods-from-outside-the-eu.aspx


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> The republic of ireland. not sure but I think there's free trade within the eu. I think customs fees will have to be paid from us, as I have done so before.
> 
> https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing...nal-use/buying-goods-from-outside-the-eu.aspx


They are being sent from the EU as well, so you shouldn't have to pay any taxes


----------



## gipetto

great news, thank you.


----------



## tacomn

For the thumb grooves are you saying that you possibly will add it, or saying that I have ability to 3d print it my self?


----------



## chort

tacomn said:


> For the thumb grooves are you saying that you possibly will add it, or saying that I have ability to 3d print it my self?


you have the ability to 3d print it by yourself.


----------



## empyr

@bst Hey, I'm sure you are getting bored of the question by now but, how did the Ergo sides come out? I assume if they were good, they've been sent off to tooling? 
Also, are you still aiming for December or you reckon it will be a January thing? (Maybe it's still too early to tell?)


----------



## thesrod

bst said:


> Unfortunately there isn't enough room to do that. I think in the end its easier to just sell the PCBs, you have to buy switches, remove the old PCB and solder things anyway. At least then you can put it back to standard if you need to.
> 
> 
> 
> Still got to try the optical encoder. Maybe it'll suck, but I'll see what its like. I haven't asked about changing the detent torque yet, it seemed a bit premature since I haven't tried the encoder yet.
> 
> There is a nice F-Switch encoder which has a higher detent torque than the Venator's one. It has really defined steps but its still very smooth, its the best encoder I've ever used. In the Venator, the MMB switch is angled so the cylinder on the scroll wheel sits parallel above the actual switch button, so with such defined steps, the cylinder moves/vibrates back and forth over the button and makes a really annoying noise. So thats why I didn't use it on that mouse (The encoder is perfectly quiet on its own, though). So on the Astrum, the switch is rotated 90 degrees, so the cylinder is like this --- and the button on the switch is like this |. That way round, even if the cylinder moves around, it doesn't catch on the button and make an annoying sound. So I can use the higher torque scroll wheels on the Astrum.
> 
> At the moment the lineup is like this:
> - F-Switch Encoder vs Optical
> - TTC Gold switches vs D2FC(50M) vs Optical (maybe leave the Japanese Omrons for people who want to DIY)
> 
> If I were to bet, I would say the F-Switch is going to win the encoder battle, but I'm not sure about the switches. If both the optical and TTC switches feel really good, it'll be a hard decision, but if one of them feels worse, then it'll be a lot easier. If they both feel terrible, I might just give up and go with the D2FC(50M)'s. I don't love those switches, but at the same time they aren't bad switches.


Do you know where I can purchase an F-switch encoder for DIY? The way you have described it sounds perfect. Thanks!


----------



## Elrick

empyr said:


> Also, are you still aiming for December or you reckon it will be a January thing? (Maybe it's still too early to tell?)



Hope it doesn't come out in December this year simply due to the World wide postal squeeze on all packages that will take longer to arrive to everyone's postal addresses.


Just do it in January 2019, so that all the Xmas presents are cleared from the postal chain - ready for tonnes of Ninox Astrum's to flood into everyone's home/businesses :thumb: .


----------



## aCz-

Elrick said:


> Hope it doesn't come out in December this year simply due to the World wide postal squeeze on all packages that will take longer to arrive to everyone's postal addresses.
> 
> 
> Just do it in January 2019, so that all the Xmas presents are cleared from the postal chain - ready for tonnes of Ninox Astrum's to flood into everyone's home/businesses :thumb: .



Easy to say... waiting games are killing me.


----------



## popups

It's already the end of September. If the mouse is to release this year he needs to already be setting things up at the factory. It doesn't appear he has finished the design. So, it's looking more like 6 months from now to get one in your hand. People are not going to be happy if it doesn't release by December. I wonder what the rules are on charge backs.


----------



## ryan92084

When have you heard of a crowd funded project shipping on time?


----------



## Elrick

popups said:


> It doesn't appear he has finished the design. So, it's looking more like 6 months from now to get one in your hand. People are not going to be happy if it doesn't release by December. I wonder what the rules are on charge backs.



I'm happy with that, looking forward to 2019 and the year of the 'Astrum' :thumb: .


----------



## trhead

People have short memory


----------



## bst

I'm going as fast as I can, its being worked on constantly. 

I did make some more tweaks to the design, and I had to test it again with a 3D print. Things would go faster if I didn't test them, but that would run the risk of a silly mistake being put into the tooling, and causing huge problems.

I put in some more strengthening, and a clip which holds the sensor more securely, since the way it was designed meant that if you pressed hard enough, you could push it all the way through. This happened after I had used it for a while and the resin material I used on the 3D print started to lose its rigidity, so maybe it would never even be an issue with much more rigid ABS, but I still thought its a good idea to put in a failsafe. This is just the thing, its not very easy to know everything until you try it in your hands. But overall, there were a lot of things that could have gone wrong, which came out perfectly, so overall its very good.

I also put in something that people were talking about a few pages back, so the sensor holder can only be installed in one position, which is in the exact centre. So every Astrum starts with the same sensor position.

Another thing I done was to increase the size of the sensor position teeth, so its held more securely. At first I was using 1mm teeth, which made them only 0.5mm high, and I just didn't think it was secure enough. So, now there are less positions you can adjust the sensor to (9), but I think its enough, and maybe a bit less stressful for people who can't stop trying different settings.

I also done some other tests like trying to pull the side panels off when its fully assembled, and I found I could improve that. You really have to pull at them to take them off, but I didn't like that it could be done. It was a pretty simple fix, it just needed another holder/tab "thing" to stop it from being possible to remove it.

Overall, I just wanted to go a step further to make absolutely sure theres no room for errors.

So some people might say, "but youuuu said it worked perfectly when you got the 3D print", but I guess I was just happy that the concepts worked, but after a lot more testing, I became a bit more paranoid about the details above, and wanted to do just one final tweak. Because once its done, it can't be changed, and thats a bit scary. 

I am just doing ONE last thing which is a minor tweak to the ergonomic sides, which is why the pictures of them haven't been posted yet. They have been through a lot of designs to get it perfect. The Alpha and Beta shapes were easy, the ergonomic shape was really annoying. There isn't anything technically difficult about them, its not like theres some functional problem to figure out, its just the feel of it. Its kind of my own fault because I thought I could do it without 3D scanning a sculpted shape, and just adapt the old shape to the new beta shell, but it just didn't work as well as I hoped. It was a lot more sensitive to minor changes in the Beta shape than I expected. They're being printed over the weekend and its the last thing now. So the design is finished, even though I don't have the 3D print of those sides, there isn't any reason why they'll feel different to the sculpted version, since it matches up perfectly, and they attach in the same way as the Beta parts, so theres nothing to worry about there.

I will post an update showing all the shapes as soon as I can. I just hope people can understand that I am going as fast as I can while being careful not to make any mistakes. I don't know the exact release date yet, I don't really want to speculate on it right now, because its nearing the point where we'll have a much better idea, so I think its better to wait until then. You never know, there might be a nice surprise and everything just falls into place quickly and easily now


----------



## Avalar

You're doing the right thing. Don't worry about it, man. I know I'd be freaking out if I had that much responsibility lol.

Personally, I'd be willing to wait way longer than next December/January for the last mouse I'll ever "need".


----------



## gipetto

I'd hope you use 140N or greater switches for the side buttons. I used 70N d2f01f for the side switches in mine and the shell was rubbing against it so I couldn't tell when i was clicking it.


----------



## Ukkooh

trhead said:


> People have short memory


I can't see how this could take as long as the aurora did at this point.


----------



## bst

The main problem with the Aurora was its software, the factory outsourced their programming to a software house, I think motospeed uses the same one. From what I've seen they work mostly with Holtek MCUs.

Last interaction I had with them was: "We won't give you the 3389 SROM because you're not using our solution, if you use our solution you can have it" ($3000+). The factory got me the SROM from Pixart in the end anyway, but this is what they're like.

With the Aurora, when it was far from finished, they said, "You've had enough now, no more", after they sent me 3 mice all with exactly the same problems, as if they had fixed it, when I couldn't see that they'd done anything. And this is 2-3 months of waiting between each one. This is why I wouldn't touch them for the Astrum software, I can't trust them again.

Everything else was ok with the Aurora, it wasn't the nicest quality shell, but that's pretty normal for OEM. If the software hadn't been such a pain, it would have been ready about a year or more sooner, probably 1.5 years. I should have found someone else to program the mouse myself, but at the time I wasn't very experienced. 

So yeah, don't worry, I purposefully avoided involving them in the Astrum, precisely because of what they done with the Aurora. The person programming the Astrum is awesome, and I get the source code too (the software house never gives out the source code).


----------



## Zakman

@bst Take as long as you need mate, as someone else said, no one should be expecting kickstarters to run problem-free. An Indiegogo update once a month would go a long way to keeping everyone else at ease though.


----------



## a_ak57

I think the changes to the sensor make sense and are worth the extra time. My main concern with the mouse has always been how that feature will play out over time/with extended abuse, so sacrificing a bit of the customization for stability is the right call. If someone can't find a good position out of 9 options then they were never going to settle on one anyway.


----------



## lainx

I still have some concerns regarding the movable sensor. It's probably the first thing that's going to wear out with use. I haven't been a fan of it from the start so i'm biased but..
I'm considering people who do these insane heavy flicks. In time, that notch (wherever the user have set the sensor) will become loose.
And most normal users that don't know their sensor position preference may constantly change it which again, will wear them out.
I get why you abandoned the screws, but i still think that this will probably be the main thing to break once users get their hands on it.
It's a neat idea and i get why people want it, not sure if its worth it though.
If you can pull it off i'm sure a lot of people will be happy!

Still hoping for a December release, my G Pro is getting hella' scuffed at this point.


----------



## bst

Yeah, I really don't know about the adjustable sensor. I think the way I've designed it is pretty good, but just having the feature is adding complexity, no matter how its done.

The main thing I don't like about it is the MCU has to be on the side button PCB, since there is no room for it at the bottom. Thats quite a big sacrifice for some who would want to remove the side button PCB to save weight. It doesn't add any more weight if you were always going to keep the side button PCB in the mouse, actually it might even be lighter like that, but I just don't like all the wires that have to come down, there are about 15 of them.

Reliability and functionality I think will be ok, it doesn't really need the teeth to be perfectly sharp, they can get worn down quite a bit and it still holds it.

Its one of those things where I like it and at the same time I don't like it. In a way I wish it didn't work, because then it'd be an easy decision to remove it. But because it does work, it feels like removing it would just be a paranoid thing to do, and it'd be a shame. But then it would also be a shame if it was the downfall of the mouse in some way, like if I've overestimated its reliability in some way that I can't predict.

A few times I was going to ask if people minded if I removed it, back before I came up with the toolless solution, I was having a lot of trouble thinking of how to do it. But I didn't want to let people down, after all I have said it would be on the mouse and that's one of the things people paid for. 

In the end of course I did come up with a way of doing it, but the situation with it at the moment is that I don't think there are big enough issues with it to justify saying I won't do it, but at the same time my gut tells me, and experience tells me, that its probably not a good idea to do it. But that doesn't sound like a good enough reason to bin it, so at the moment its staying.

I wish I had never done it to be honest, it would have been a lot more simple


----------



## ewiggle

I'm guessing you can't just limit the sensor adjustable versions to the limited editions then ...

(personally, a front sensor is partly why I want the mouse and the adjustability is simply a means to an end)


----------



## bst

Can't do that unfortunately.

I'm going to leave it how it is though, I think its going to be ok. I just don't like the complication of it all. It just bugs me.

What I am thinking of doing is after the Astrum is released, to wait before making an Astrum S, just to see what happens with the Astrum. Rather than rushing ahead with it. In the mean time, I want to make a small, super lightweight mouse, because after this I'm really craving to make something simple. Also it'd be cheaper and faster than the Astrum to tool, and cheaper RRP, but still using all the same internal components. Doesn't cost me anything to try it anyway.


----------



## gipetto

are you referring to the venator reboot or a rehash of the aurora/ something else? Everyone agrees the mouse market is fairly saturated.


----------



## lainx

bst said:


> Yeah, I really don't know about the adjustable sensor. I think the way I've designed it is pretty good, but just having the feature is adding complexity, no matter how its done.
> 
> The main thing I don't like about it is the MCU has to be on the side button PCB, since there is no room for it at the bottom. Thats quite a big sacrifice for some who would want to remove the side button PCB to save weight. It doesn't add any more weight if you were always going to keep the side button PCB in the mouse, actually it might even be lighter like that, but I just don't like all the wires that have to come down, there are about 15 of them.
> 
> Reliability and functionality I think will be ok, it doesn't really need the teeth to be perfectly sharp, they can get worn down quite a bit and it still holds it.
> 
> Its one of those things where I like it and at the same time I don't like it. In a way I wish it didn't work, because then it'd be an easy decision to remove it. But because it does work, it feels like removing it would just be a paranoid thing to do, and it'd be a shame. But then it would also be a shame if it was the downfall of the mouse in some way, like if I've overestimated its reliability in some way that I can't predict.
> 
> A few times I was going to ask if people minded if I removed it, back before I came up with the toolless solution, I was having a lot of trouble thinking of how to do it. But I didn't want to let people down, after all I have said it would be on the mouse and that's one of the things people paid for.
> 
> In the end of course I did come up with a way of doing it, but the situation with it at the moment is that I don't think there are big enough issues with it to justify saying I won't do it, but at the same time my gut tells me, and experience tells me, that its probably not a good idea to do it. But that doesn't sound like a good enough reason to bin it, so at the moment its staying.
> 
> I wish I had never done it to be honest, it would have been a lot more simple


Yea, adding a movable part adds a whole other layer of complexity to the design. I obviously don't know how your design looks right now, but i can imagine it's somewhat frustrating.
I'm just imagining all the potential RMA's coming your way once people get their hands on the mice and start abusing it. I'm not a designer at all but i know that adding movable parts makes it so much more complex.
Then again, if you pull it off and get a reliable solution that can withstand the users wear and tear, then it's probably revolutionary.
Is there other companies that have tried this? I seem to recall, what was it, RAT? making something similar with a movable sensor.


----------



## gipetto

I'm not worried about the sensor moving, nothing some hot snot won't fix. I still think a dual sensor would be technically superior as all the level converters could be reused on a single spi bus. The code for moving the sensor position could be as simple as setting each sensor to a different dpi and summing it. then to sell a cheaper version it's just a matter of not populating that sensor hole and lens. *ducks from angry mob for inducing delays*


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> are you referring to the venator reboot or a rehash of the aurora/ something else? Everyone agrees the mouse market is fairly saturated.


I was going to let people vote between a few:
Venator Remake
Aurora Remake
Mico-like with side buttons
IE3-like (but lightweight)

I'll just see which one wins 



lainx said:


> Yea, adding a movable part adds a whole other layer of complexity to the design. I obviously don't know how your design looks right now, but i can imagine it's somewhat frustrating.
> I'm just imagining all the potential RMA's coming your way once people get their hands on the mice and start abusing it. I'm not a designer at all but i know that adding movable parts makes it so much more complex.
> Then again, if you pull it off and get a reliable solution that can withstand the users wear and tear, then it's probably revolutionary.
> Is there other companies that have tried this? I seem to recall, what was it, RAT? making something similar with a movable sensor.


Yeah, someone showed a prototype with it, I can't remember who it was now, but they didn't end up doing it in the end. Which isn't surprising 

The way it works shouldn't introduce much wear and tear, the only thing it could have is something to stop it being pressed in too far, but there isn't any room to do it. But I'm using it on a new prototype now which uses a material called Visijet M3 Crystal, which is just about as accurate as 3D printing gets, it has similar rigidity to ABS, but is much, much more brittle, and it hasn't broken, even though I've been pressing very hard on it. Thats a very good sign, because this material breaks from just breathing on it.

I am confident with it, but maybe its just my own personal taste, I don't personally need the adjustable sensor, so I suppose that makes it feel like its not worth it. Also I don't really know how many people want it. But maybe it'll turn out really nice and people find it useful. I can say that it really changes the feel of the mouse, having it at the front feels very different to having it at the back, so its definitely an interesting option to have.


----------



## gipetto

Well it's a none of the above for me, the first 3 are too small and the last is an uncomfortable palm grip, but if the wmo cult is still around the auroraV2 should be popular. I'm good for mice anyway, my frankenmouse needs to start paying its way. I always had a hankering for a wooden mouse though, would be awesome if you could contact that guy who makes the bamboo mice and rough out an io1.1 shape with 3360 internals.


----------



## tacomn

Does the sensor move left and right by the way?


----------



## Avalar

@bst

I dream of lightweight G502-shaped mouse. Still my favorite ergo shape; SteelSeries’ Rival shapes are too slanted for me.


----------



## Leopardi

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> I dream of lightweight G502-shaped mouse. Still my favorite ergo shape; SteelSeries’ Rival shapes are too slanted for me.


Basilisk? 20g lighter, almost exactly same shape


----------



## bst

tacomn said:


> Does the sensor move left and right by the way?


No, you can only move it backwards and forwards.


----------



## nyshak

bst said:


> I am confident with it, but maybe its just my own personal taste, I don't personally need the adjustable sensor, so I suppose that makes it feel like its not worth it. Also I don't really know how many people want it. But maybe it'll turn out really nice and people find it useful. I can say that it really changes the feel of the mouse, having it at the front feels very different to having it at the back, so its definitely an interesting option to have.


Interesting and useful I'd say and to me this is one of the main features of the Astrum, so I hope it stays and works well in the end. I had the Coolermaster Spawn mouse once and I really like how far forward the sensor was with my gripstyle. Unfortunately, the shap was bad. So I am hoping to fix that issue with the Astrum.

Maybe you could put a sticker on the bottom of the Astrum next to the sensor with a "caution: press lightly" kind of message?


----------



## Ukkooh

bst said:


> I was going to let people vote between a few:
> Venator Remake
> Aurora Remake
> Mico-like with side buttons
> IE3-like (but lightweight)
> 
> I'll just see which one wins


I'd love an Aurora remake with Astrum internals at around 70 grams.


----------



## Avalar

Leopardi said:


> Basilisk? 20g lighter, almost exactly same shape


Yeah, but I need all the buttons, too. :/


----------



## 7175

Glad to read the adjustable sensor is being kept. Being able to keep the sensor forward was a huge selling point for me.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> No, you can only move it backwards and forwards.



THIS is what makes your design so unique compared the most other releases.


Stick to this BST and watch real interest for your product increase over time.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> What I am thinking of doing is after the Astrum is released, to wait before making an Astrum S, just to see what happens with the Astrum. Rather than rushing ahead with it. In the mean time, I want to make a small, super lightweight mouse, because after this I'm really craving to make something simple. Also it'd be cheaper and faster than the Astrum to tool, and cheaper RRP, but still using all the same internal components. Doesn't cost me anything to try it anyway.





bst said:


> I was going to let people vote between a few:
> Venator Remake
> Aurora Remake
> Mico-like with side buttons
> IE3-like (but lightweight)


I understand the reasoning here, so truthfully this is just my own selfish bias, but I really wish the Astrum S would be up next. There just isn't a decent small mouse with straight / flat sides available right now. The Astrum will be great in the meantime, but I still feel like a smaller version would benefit aim more. The Venator and Aurora both lack straight |__| sides, and the Mico / IE3 are, for me, a bit too small and too large, respectively. Mice like the G Pro, Aurora, G303, MasterMouse S, Venator, ZA13, Abyssus, etc. all have some form of sloped sides or inward curvature somewhere. Having maximum contact between the shell and fingertips on a straight |__| sided mouse, with a 115-120mm length, would just be so nice to have.


----------



## the1freeMan

Lightweight 3.0 sounds nice.
Regarding the astrum, some pictures with dimensions like on the zowie site would be nice.


----------



## LunaTiC123

Oh boy, a lightweight (70-80g) IE3 clone with good buttons/scrollwheel and a 3389 sensor would be lovely, probably my favourite shape alongside the deathadder shape.


----------



## bst

Whatever I made would most likely have straight sides, what I would do is make the top cover and sides all one piece (then the only other bits would be side buttons, front buttons, and the base). It'd look a bit like how the GPW is constructed. Can do it with the IE3 as well since that has straight sides.

I'll do all of them eventually though, I mean why not, if people want them then the fund raise will be a success, if they don't then it hasn't cost much to try. Next year maybe every 2-3 months I can hold a vote and put whatever wins up for a fund raise.

I probably should have done this first, because its much easier, but oh well!


----------



## Ukkooh

By the way you commented on indiegogo questions 18 days ago that you are posting an update by the end of next week. Ran into issues? Has the design been finished so the factory can start tooling?


----------



## ov3rmind

@bst venator remake with straight sides without humps and sensor placed on middle/aurora remake with better software and better sides(when I push side of aurora, I can click it. I think it needs to be fixed)


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> By the way you commented on indiegogo questions 18 days ago that you are posting an update by the end of next week. Ran into issues? Has the design been finished so the factory can start tooling?


I know 

It is going to the tooling factory in a few days time, there aren't any issues, it needed one more revision which I've already done and tested, to improve small details. All I'm waiting for is the 3D scan for the ergonomic sides, I was meant to get them today, but should be tomorrow. They don't take long to do (will take me about 2 hours), then I'll send it off. So not long now. 



LunaTiC123 said:


> Oh boy, a lightweight (70-80g) IE3 clone with good buttons/scrollwheel and a 3389 sensor would be lovely, probably my favourite shape alongside the deathadder shape.


After I've finished with the Astrum modelling, I'll make these mice and see how much they'll weigh, I think a 70g IE3 shouldn't be too hard, the Aurora and Venator I might be able to get down to sub 60. Will see how they go 

Ov3rmind, yes the side buttons would be fixed in a new Aurora. Probably the Aurora is my least favourite one to do though, because the Astrum has that shape, even though its not as small, and it would come later in the Astrum S anyway. But the Venator and IE3 are more interesting I think.


----------



## winz0r

bst said:


> After I've finished with the Astrum modelling, I'll make these mice and see how much they'll weigh, I think a 70g IE3 shouldn't be too hard, the Aurora and Venator I might be able to get down to sub 60. Will see how they go
> 
> Ov3rmind, yes the side buttons would be fixed in a new Aurora. Probably the Aurora is my least favourite one to do though, because the Astrum has that shape, even though its not as small, and it would come later in the Astrum S anyway. But the Venator and IE3 are more interesting I think.


MX300/G1/G3 shape pretty please @bst


----------



## Leopardi

winz0r said:


> MX300/G1/G3 shape pretty please @bst


This. 3 years and counting, and no such shape available on the market. Plus most G100s went broke after like 6 months.


----------



## ov3rmind

@bst yes, I think you dont have to make aurora again. I hope venator remake or astrum RS has the shape I like.


----------



## nyshak

Leopardi said:


> This. 3 years and counting, and no such shape available on the market. Plus most G100s went broke after like 6 months.


I like those shapes too, but honestly I expect the Astrums Alpha shape to be even better than those.


----------



## bst

The Alpha shape is pretty similar to a G1/G3/RX250, I haven't ever held a G100 so I can't say its like that, I think that mouse is a little lower? I really love the Alpha shape though, its not exactly like any other mouse I've used, like the Diamondback or the Logitech mice, its a lot more simplified, and IMO that makes it more comfortable. When I hold it, it makes contact with every area of my hand that I want it to, and that feels really good 

I think I said a few pages back, I probably won't ever do the Astrum R/RS. After I looked at the shapes, the only one that really works is the Venator shape. The other shapes would be kind of pointless or gimmicky compared to it. So instead, it'll just be the Venator Mk2, and maybe a larger version if theres interest. I think its better that way since it'll be lighter and less expensive.


----------



## Leopardi

bst said:


> The Alpha shape is pretty similar to a G1/G3/RX250, I haven't ever held a G100 so I can't say its like that, I think that mouse is a little lower? I really love the Alpha shape though, its not exactly like any other mouse I've used, like the Diamondback or the Logitech mice, its a lot more simplified, and IMO that makes it more comfortable. When I hold it, it makes contact with every area of my hand that I want it to, and that feels really good
> 
> I think I said a few pages back, I probably won't ever do the Astrum R/RS. After I looked at the shapes, the only one that really works is the Venator shape. The other shapes would be kind of pointless or gimmicky compared to it. So instead, it'll just be the Venator Mk2, and maybe a larger version if theres interest. I think its better that way since it'll be lighter and less expensive.


A bit lower but wider looking at the dimensions. I haven't ever held a mouse that feels as much an "extension of your hand" as the G100s, and never played as good after it broke down. If I could get my hand on a G100s with modern 1000Hz sensor (it was only 500Hz), I'd just order a crapload of them and be settled for the rest of my life.



nyshak said:


> I like those shapes too, but honestly I expect the Astrums Alpha shape to be even better than those.


Why do you think so? It's less wide, but higher, so I guess it has some potential to do the same thing but in a bit different way.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> Whatever I made would most likely have straight sides, what I would do is make the top cover and sides all one piece (then the only other bits would be side buttons, front buttons, and the base). It'd look a bit like how the GPW is constructed. Can do it with the IE3 as well since that has straight sides.


Wait, so flat and straight sides from all angles? I'd love to see what that would even look like on the Venator, because the inwards \__/ slant was the breaking point of that shape (for me personally). Straight |__| sides would make it really nice, though...


----------



## Avalar

Lol, I'd love to see another company finally make Zowie totally obsolete and copy one of their shapes exactly, or get as near as makes no difference.


----------



## winz0r

bst said:


> The Alpha shape is pretty similar to a G1/G3/RX250.


Yeah most people say that about the G100s and GPro but they're nowhere near close. The G100s shape is much more comfortable than the GPro.


----------



## 508859

winz0r said:


> Yeah most people say that about the G100s and GPro but they're nowhere near close. The G100s shape is much more comfortable than the GPro.


never heard from anyone that g100s is similar to g pro


----------



## Avalar

numberfive said:


> never heard from anyone that g100s is similar to g pro


Except Logitech lmao


----------



## pepelugil

bst said:


> They would appear on those stores at about the same time as people receiving their mice, it depends though, because the goal on indiegogo is the minimum I need to fulfil the indiegogo orders, I need more to be able to order more mice for Amazon, although maxgaming can put in their own advance order so there'd be no problem with them.



Hello,

Could you please confirm if as of today you have reached your goal in order to have Astrum available on different Amazons (com, co.uk, de, es, fr...) at the same time as people who has bought them via indiegogo? Right now, Venator is unavailable in all european Amazons and only is Aurora available.

Thanks


----------



## Klopfer

Venator is available from maxgaming
https://www.maxgaming.com/gaming-mice/venator-gaming-mouse-black


----------



## bst

pepelugil said:


> Hello,
> 
> Could you please confirm if as of today you have reached your goal in order to have Astrum available on different Amazons (com, co.uk, de, es, fr...) at the same time as people who has bought them via indiegogo? Right now, Venator is unavailable in all european Amazons and only is Aurora available.
> 
> Thanks


Yes there will be some stock going to Amazon


----------



## pepelugil

bst said:


> Yes there will be some stock going to Amazon


Great, then I'll keep an eye on amazon.es (where I'm prime) when you announce the shipment of first Astrums.

Thanks


----------



## empyr

Did the ergo sides come out nicely? @bst


----------



## ov3rmind

Sorry maybe I passed that post. May I expect venator with straight sides and sensor on mid for mk2?


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> Did the ergo sides come out nicely? @bst


Yes, I'm finally happy with it 
Heres some pics:
https://snag.gy/Xx8W1Q.jpg
https://snag.gy/YehxbJ.jpg
https://snag.gy/tuvJ39.jpg



ov3rmind said:


> Sorry maybe I passed that post. May I expect venator with straight sides and sensor on mid for mk2?


Yes thats how I'd do it.


----------



## ov3rmind

Yes thats how I'd do it.[/QUOTE]


Great!! I'll just wait for that!!


----------



## vanir1337

Looks great!


----------



## abso

Looks great. Do the mouse buttons have comfort groves? Hard to tell from the pictures.


----------



## chort

abso said:


> Looks great. Do the mouse buttons have comfort groves? Hard to tell from the pictures.


fairly confident they don't


----------



## popups

Looks like the right side sticks out too much. I rather it be thinner so the edge of the palm can wrap around the right side instead of resting on top of the mouse. I think the the right side should be thinner and the left side wider, which is why I rather use the EC2 over the EC1 even though I like the length of the EC1.

If a mouse is too wide on one side, when you tense your hand you have a harder time picking it up or controlling it. I think most designers make shapes based off their hand resting on top of the mouse rather than how the mouse fits your hand when you are holding it in the air, then they rely on coatings and the like to help when lifting.

To me, a design should allow you to squeeze without the mouse shifting its position in your hand. You should be able to lift the mouse without relying solely on the coating. When you swipe the mouse should remain stable without much pressure to keep it there. When you push the mouse with your thumb it should move in a straight line.


----------



## k0fz

bst, have you checked your private messages lately? I asked a few questions, hope you can answer them. Thanks.


----------



## SuPeR_oNioN_MaN

Spectacular!


----------



## tacomn

I thought the sensor could be moved to the left and the right. Also that it would have an option for thumb groove on the left of the mouse. These were the main selling points for me :/


----------



## Avalar

tacomn said:


> I thought the sensor could be moved to the left and the right. Also that it would have an option for thumb groove on the left of the mouse. These were the main selling points for me :/


Where did you hear that?

Anyway, he said templates could be made to 3D print your own parts.


----------



## popups

I don't see the benefit for moving the sensor left or right.

I am disappointed in how you can't put the sensor very far forward. That feature as it is now is more beneficial to people who like to put it closer to their wrist than their fingertips.


----------



## bst

popups said:


> I don't see the benefit for moving the sensor left or right.
> 
> I am disappointed in how you can't put the sensor very far forward. That feature as it is now is more beneficial to people who like to put it closer to their wrist than their fingertips.


Doing either would significantly increase the weight of the mouse.

If I made it so it can move left and right, it'd need a different kind of mechanism entirely. 

If I made it so it can go all the way to the front, then the hole in the base would be so long, that the base would need to be connected above the sensor to strengthen it, which would leave very little to no room for the wheel encoder and front buttons.

Neither is really feasible especially when trying to keep the weight down. 

There is still a huge difference between putting it in the furthest back and most forward positions.

Heres a couple more pics, for fun:
https://snag.gy/dqnTmA.jpg
https://snag.gy/tQ3XYx.jpg


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Doing either would significantly increase the weight of the mouse.
> 
> If I made it so it can move left and right, it'd need a different kind of mechanism entirely.
> 
> If I made it so it can go all the way to the front, then the hole in the base would be so long, that the base would need to be connected above the sensor to strengthen it, which would leave very little to no room for the wheel encoder and front buttons.
> 
> Neither is really feasible especially when trying to keep the weight down.
> 
> There is still a huge difference between putting it in the furthest back and most forward positions.
> 
> Heres a couple more pics, for fun:
> https://snag.gy/dqnTmA.jpg
> https://snag.gy/tQ3XYx.jpg


Which finish is that? ;0


----------



## chort

Avalar said:


> Which finish is that? ;0


black knight I think


----------



## bst

chort said:


> black knight I think


Yep


----------



## Zakman

@bst Beta IE looks dead comfy. Have you got a better idea of what the weight of the mouse will be now or should we wait for the injection moulds? And when do you reckon you'll be able to get your next official update out on Indiegogo?


----------



## tacomn

popups said:


> I don't see the benefit for moving the sensor left or right.
> 
> I am disappointed in how you can't put the sensor very far forward. That feature as it is now is more beneficial to people who like to put it closer to their wrist than their fingertips.


Proper sensor location would be farther up towards your fingertips and the sensor lined up with your spoke bone. Othewise movement will cause non straight lines. Here is a good post that explains.

http://www.esreality.com/post/2410040/new-gaming-mice-vps-invention-and-more/


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> @bst Beta IE looks dead comfy. Have you got a better idea of what the weight of the mouse will be now or should we wait for the injection moulds? And when do you reckon you'll be able to get your next official update out on Indiegogo?


It'll be most accurate when I've got the pre-production sample, which will have everything as its going to be, at the moment I don't have it, but I can still be fairly accurate since I know what it'll be like:
Alpha is 75g and add 0.6g per side button.
Beta is 76g and add 0.7g per side button.
Beta XE is 77g and add 0.7g for the side button.

It has pretty much got to the point where there isn't any way to take more weight off, the only thing left would be to put holes in the top cover, that takes off about 2g, but I don't think its worth it. Just for fun, heres what it looks like with 31 5mm holes in the top cover: 
https://snag.gy/LjEcsU.jpg

I don't know when I'll post on Indiegogo yet, it will be soon though, I know its been a while.


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> It'll be most accurate when I've got the pre-production sample, which will have everything as its going to be, at the moment I don't have it, but I can still be fairly accurate since I know what it'll be like:
> Alpha is 75g and add 0.6g per side button.
> Beta is 76g and add 0.7g per side button.
> Beta XE is 77g and add 0.7g for the side button.
> 
> It has pretty much got to the point where there isn't any way to take more weight off, the only thing left would be to put holes in the top cover, that takes off about 2g, but I don't think its worth it. Just for fun, heres what it looks like with 31 5mm holes in the top cover:
> https://snag.gy/LjEcsU.jpg
> 
> I don't know when I'll post on Indiegogo yet, it will be soon though, I know its been a while.


I think anyone who cares about 2 grams _that_ much will do the drillium for themselves anyways. Thank you for the updates by the way, the render pictures look real good and promising, can't wait to get my hands on one!


----------



## cdcd

Those weight numbers look great, and I also don't think it's worth drilling holes in on top of it.


----------



## ewiggle

bst said:


> It has pretty much got to the point where there isn't any way to take more weight off, the only thing left would be to put holes in the top cover, that takes off about 2g, but I don't think its worth it. Just for fun, heres what it looks like with 31 5mm holes in the top cover:
> https://snag.gy/LjEcsU.jpg
> 
> I don't know when I'll post on Indiegogo yet, it will be soon though, I know its been a while.


Please no holes. I need every section of that top shells glossy surface area to make contact with my palm for maximum grip and control. And those holes are ugly, much rather see smooth plastic.


----------



## Ukkooh

bst said:


> It'll be most accurate when I've got the pre-production sample, which will have everything as its going to be, at the moment I don't have it, but I can still be fairly accurate since I know what it'll be like:
> Alpha is 75g and add 0.6g per side button.
> Beta is 76g and add 0.7g per side button.
> Beta XE is 77g and add 0.7g for the side button.


Do you mean 0.6g per one button or for the buttons on one side?


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> Do you mean 0.6g per one button or for the buttons on one side?


Per side. There isn't an option to add or remove single side buttons.


----------



## lurkerguy

76g is good, can't really expect it to get lower than that with that skeleton required for applying parts. Leave drilling holes to mice to Finalmouse.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Yep


Even more glad I got one.


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Doing either would significantly increase the weight of the mouse.
> 
> If I made it so it can move left and right, it'd need a different kind of mechanism entirely.
> 
> If I made it so it can go all the way to the front, then the hole in the base would be so long, that the base would need to be connected above the sensor to strengthen it, which would leave very little to no room for the wheel encoder and front buttons.
> 
> Neither is really feasible especially when trying to keep the weight down.
> 
> There is still a huge difference between putting it in the furthest back and most forward positions.
> 
> Heres a couple more pics, for fun:
> https://snag.gy/dqnTmA.jpg
> https://snag.gy/tQ3XYx.jpg


 Beautiful

How far away are you from starting the tooling?


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> It'll be most accurate when I've got the pre-production sample, which will have everything as its going to be, at the moment I don't have it, but I can still be fairly accurate since I know what it'll be like:
> Alpha is 75g and add 0.6g per side button.
> Beta is 76g and add 0.7g per side button.
> Beta XE is 77g and add 0.7g for the side button.
> 
> It has pretty much got to the point where there isn't any way to take more weight off, the only thing left would be to put holes in the top cover, that takes off about 2g, but I don't think its worth it. Just for fun, heres what it looks like with 31 5mm holes in the top cover:
> https://snag.gy/LjEcsU.jpg
> 
> I don't know when I'll post on Indiegogo yet, it will be soon though, I know its been a while.


Sounds great, looking forward to it.

One last question - have the dimensions changed at all for the shapes?


----------



## blackmesatech

popups said:


> I am disappointed in how you can't put the sensor very far forward. That feature as it is now is more beneficial to people who like to put it closer to their wrist than their fingertips.



Going by the more recent renders he already moved the track further forward on the mouse compared to how it originally was on the prototype. On the prototype you could place the sensor pretty far back from center but now with the tool-less version the track was moved forward and the tool-less parts prevent it from going back as far as you could before. Which is unfortunate for those who use their arm to move the mouse.


----------



## gipetto

@bst I think you mentioned the os software would support scroll wheel acceleration. I understand in linux this requires a modified kernel. Here's my implementation if you wanted to use it for a signed firmware. I understand if it's too hacky to use.


----------



## popups

Have you thought of making the scroll wheel area have a groove like the FK instead of being flat?

Is the scroll wheel spoked?

Is the bottom piece going to glossy smooth or rough like an Intellimouse or FK?


----------



## Avalar

popups said:


> Have you thought of making the scroll wheel area have a groove like the FK instead of being flat?
> 
> Is the scroll wheel spoked?
> 
> Is the bottom piece going to glossy smooth or rough like an Intellimouse or FK?


Speaking of scroll wheel, I'd make sure the rubber ring on the wheel doesn't roll by itself like it does on the Ultralight.


----------



## bst

popups said:


> Have you thought of making the scroll wheel area have a groove like the FK instead of being flat?


Yeah, but its quite hard to do it now, so I just decided to leave it how it is, I don't think it'd make much difference though.



popups said:


> Is the scroll wheel spoked?


No, its just a normal wheel, like you would find on a mouse with a mechanical encoder.



popups said:


> Is the bottom piece going to glossy smooth or rough like an Intellimouse or FK?


Glossy smooth.


----------



## bst

blackmesatech said:


> Going by the more recent renders he already moved the track further forward on the mouse compared to how it originally was on the prototype. On the prototype you could place the sensor pretty far back from center but now with the tool-less version the track was moved forward and the tool-less parts prevent it from going back as far as you could before. Which is unfortunate for those who use their arm to move the mouse.


I didn't change that, its exactly the same as the prototype.


----------



## empyr

Hey bst, do you have pictures of the Red/Blue/Purple Astrums aswell or not yet?


----------



## blackmesatech

bst said:


> I didn't change that, its exactly the same as the prototype.



Really? That is great to hear because it sure doesn't look like based on your renders and changes to the design.


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> Hey bst, do you have pictures of the Red/Blue/Purple Astrums aswell or not yet?


Not yet, no real photos. That really has to wait until there are some injection molded parts. They did send me some Venator shells painted in the colours, but most of them weren't really right IMO.

So instead of telling them what I want, I'll send them the actual paint, they're good at matching paint. I sent them a pearl white vinyl sheet and they recreated it perfectly, like zero difference, however, it was glossy and I had asked for it to be matte  

This is the kind of thing that stops me from doing updates, nothing is ever in a neat little package I can just show off, its always an ongoing process 



blackmesatech said:


> Really? That is great to hear because it sure doesn't look like based on your renders and changes to the design.


I can see why you think its been moved forward, but what happened was the hole in the base has been made longer, to make room for those grips either side of the sensor hole. So the actual sensor hole itself still stayed in the same place.

Actually I did check the models today and there is a difference between the two, but its less than a mm further forward at their lowest points, so it is a little bit different, but not by much.
https://snag.gy/IdcXul.jpg


----------



## nyshak

When does molding start now that the ergo shape is finished?


----------



## empyr

Hmm..


----------



## bst

nyshak said:


> When does molding start now that the ergo shape is finished?


Sorry, not sure how but I missed your post.

I don't know yet, I might find out tonight, the factory has the files now and are just getting it all ready, so I will have the answer soon


----------



## Avalar

@bst

What were the downsides of the seperable side buttons for the sides of the mouse? Cuz if there are none, then I don’t see why they shouldn’t be implemented. 

Doesn’t matter to me either way. I tend to use all side buttons anyway.


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> What were the downsides of the seperable side buttons for the sides of the mouse? Cuz if there are none, then I don’t see why they shouldn’t be implemented.
> 
> Doesn’t matter to me either way. I tend to use all side buttons anyway.


There are small downsides:
- Using the blanks isn't as light as having the smooth side panels with no side button holes, but its about 0.4g a side, so not much.
- You can see the outline of the blanks on the mouse, its not that obvious but its just not going to be as smooth as the ones without the side button holes. This is because they have slightly rounded edges (0.2mm) so there is a little indent around them when they sit in their holes. But its very subtle.

Other than that they are fine, you can't feel them, and they don't have the little plunger to activate the switches, so they can't ever click. They are attached to the inside of the side panel, so once the sides go on, they're sandwiched between the panel and the inner shell/skeleton, so they're completely locked in position once the sides are on.

I think the upsides are bigger than the downsides - being able to add or remove individual buttons, and the tooling being easier and faster, also manufacturing speed, since 2 more molds don't have to have to be used. Also, not really any benefit to backers, but it makes the tooling about $8000 cheaper, so with that I can order more stock, which will be really useful for keeping it stocked in future. As it is, I can't order in much stock, so it'd really help going forwards.


----------



## johnstocktonmalone32

My only experience with removable side buttons is with the G Pro Wireless. If the implementation is as good as that, I'd be satisfied.


----------



## Avalar

All for it!


----------



## gipetto

The gprow had issues with blanks getting mixed up and customers having odd parts that didn't fit their mouse. If the design was changed to make each blank the same shape that would be avoided.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> The gprow had issues with blanks getting mixed up and customers having odd parts that didn't fit their mouse. If the design was changed to make each blank the same shape that would be avoided.


I was thinking of just leaving them on the sprues, so you break off the ones you want to use, you know like those warhammer models. Its a bit less elegant, but its impossible for them to be mixed up.


----------



## discoprince

bst said:


> I was thinking of just leaving them on the sprues, so you break off the ones you want to use, you know like those warhammer models. Its a bit less elegant, but its impossible for them to be mixed up.


not a bad idea but certain parts coming off the spru like that would need some clean up with mold lines or the break line, that would require work on the users end. you have to consider if people would want to do that or not.

i wouldnt mind, since i build warhammer models.

theres a dice maker called gamescience who has his dice come as is off the spru. people complain about the spru mark on the dice but he says it cant be helped without tumbling them which he doesnt want to do. therefore its up to the user to clean up the spru mark or not.


----------



## gipetto

That could work, assuming the factory accepted that design. On the other hand that means you need a set of blanks for each side panel, due to the differing widths some buttons will be longer than others. I'm not sure how to make a blank in such a way that it could have a variable depth. maybe it's not an issue due to the low mass of the blanks.


----------



## bst

discoprince said:


> not a bad idea but certain parts coming off the spru like that would need some clean up with mold lines or the break line, that would require work on the users end. you have to consider if people would want to do that or not.
> 
> i wouldnt mind, since i build warhammer models.
> 
> theres a dice maker called gamescience who has his dice come as is off the spru. people complain about the spru mark on the dice but he says it cant be helped without tumbling them which he doesnt want to do. therefore its up to the user to clean up the spru mark or not.


It'll be ok, warhammer models and dice have no hidden areas, but with the side buttons and blanks, the parting lines and sprue marks will be hidden behind the panel when they're fitted, so they don't need any cleanup. There won't be any marks on the bit that you see on the outside of the mouse.



gipetto said:


> That could work, assuming the factory accepted that design. On the other hand that means you need a set of blanks for each side panel, due to the differing widths some buttons will be longer than others. I'm not sure how to make a blank in such a way that it could have a variable depth. maybe it's not an issue due to the low mass of the blanks.


The factory is ok with it, they come out of the mold on sprues anyway, so its less work for them since they don't have to break them off.

The front side buttons can be used on the Alpha and Beta sides, because they're flat, and the same shape. But the rear side buttons are different, they curve out a bit on the Beta shape, because of the flared out rear. So I can save making 4 pieces, but not all.


----------



## empyr

To be honest, getting that extra 8000$ towards stock for people who didn't support the project is a great idea. A lot of people will want one, if it turns out as good as it looks.

Personally not fussed about the buttons, as long as they lock in properly and don't random fall out. 
Do you see any potential issues down the line? Lets say somebody mishandling the mouse and the way you secure it cracks/breaks and the buttons unable to stay in place?


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> Personally not fussed about the buttons, as long as they lock in properly and don't random fall out.
> Do you see any potential issues down the line? Lets say somebody mishandling the mouse and the way you secure it cracks/breaks and the buttons unable to stay in place?


There shouldn't be any problems, its a really simple and robust design. You just pull on a tab to remove them, then push the new one on. When you put the side panel back on, it pushes up against a rib in the base, or for the blanks, they push up against the inner shell. So they can't move in or out, or left or right, or back and forwards.

Its worked that way since the beginning, its one of the few things that just worked straight away and hasn't needed to be changed, the only difference now is I made it more robust, so they can be removed and replaced easier. But they have always been removable, just in case someone wanted to 3D print different ones that stick out more, and also because to make them permanently attached would have added weight and complexity.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> No, its just a normal wheel, like you would find on a mouse with a mechanical encoder.


Please say you've finally decided to go with an Alps Encoder?

STOP using anymore TTC scroller rubbish, it really diminishes your final design to something far less. If some other smaller manufacturers went with Alps, why can't you?

Always remember, the two MOST important 'feelings' on any mouse are the top switches and the scroll wheel, at least deliver the scroll wheel to perfection by using an Alps encoder.


----------



## Klopfer

the Venator ( Black ) is equiped with a F-Switch ... 
Lioncast LM50 also use one , theyre feeling really good for me ... 
so, I wouldnt had a Prob with a F-Switch ...


----------



## bst

The scroll wheel is an optical scroll wheel, all I meant when I said its like a normal scroll wheel, is that it has the physical appearance of a mechanical scroll wheel.

The optical scroll encoder feels really nice, as good as ALPS and F-Switch, and it fits the scroll wheel perfectly with no rattles


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> The scroll wheel is an optical scroll wheel, all I meant when I said its like a normal scroll wheel, is that it has the physical appearance of a mechanical scroll wheel.
> 
> The optical scroll encoder feels really nice, as good as ALPS and F-Switch, and it fits the scroll wheel perfectly with no rattles


Now you've got me interested in your latest Model.

PLEASE make it available soon. You've always delivered on your designs, especially in later distributions but alas everyone is doing it now (QA) including Logitech, hence we are all use to it.


----------



## lurkerguy

I know you will get a lot of I don't mind options on the poll since majority of the people are planning on using side buttons in the first place, making them no difference which option you go with, but for me having an option to have sides with no sidebuttons on them was a big selling point of the mouse. I want my sides to be absolutely smooth and adding in blanks you can feel when hovering over them would be a big drawback; Don't know if I would like to use the mouse like that despite the fact that I love WMO shape, think 3360 is great and have been interested on the mouse since page 1. There are already very few options for people who prefer no sidebuttons to choose from if they want a mouse with a modern sensor, comfortable shape and sub 80g weight.

I know I'm in the minority here but I hope you can keep the original design despite its costs as it makes it a more unique mouse with higher customization options.


----------



## chort

lurkerguy said:


> I know I'm in the minority here but I hope you can keep the original design despite its costs as it makes it a more unique mouse with higher customization options.


lower customization options because you can't have 1 side button with the original design.
also hovering your fingers over the sides of your mouse while playing is the wrong way to use the mouse, you should probably figure that out first.


----------



## nyshak

The GPW has a similar system and the blanks on the right side don't bother me at all. Since the overall point of the Astrum is maximum customizability it makes sense to allow for xx|xx and x|x configurations as far as side buttons go.


----------



## empyr

Any news from the factory, are we ready to see some major updates in the near future? @bst


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> Any news from the factory, are we ready to see some major updates in the near future? @bst


Yeah, its all good, I will make an update pretty soon.

But for those that don't want to wait, I have gone with the side button blanks. We figured out the tooling last week, its worked out well. 

I also redesigned the side buttons a bit, the way they attach. Now its kind of like Lego, you just press them onto the back of the side panel. It was already sort of like that anyway, but it used + shaped pins which were ok for the original design (not really intended to be removed often, if at all), but I thought they were a bit weak if people will be swapping them out, so now they're cylinder shaped, and can handle being prised out at an angle.

They still get sandwiched between the side panel and a part of the base that protrudes, so once the side panels are on, they still can't go anywhere.

I think some people were a bit confused, thinking it was like the GPW, but you don't replace the side buttons from the outside, it all happens inside, so on the outside there isn't any sign that they're replaceable.


----------



## bst

Heres a pic of how the side buttons attach, to remove them, you just prise them off where the red arrows are pointing to, using your fingernail.

https://snag.gy/PvkWa5.jpg


----------



## cdcd

bst, do you have any news regarding the cable? If so, has the Motospeed cable you submitted (if I recall correctly) passed regulations?


----------



## lurkerguy

So sidebutton blanks are now confirmed? There goes my interest in the mouse.

Do you allow for refunds bst? I really wanted to support the mouse since I liked what you did with it but without smooth sides I can't really see myself using it unfortunately.


----------



## k0fz

lurkerguy said:


> So sidebutton blanks are now confirmed? There goes my interest in the mouse.
> 
> Do you allow for refunds bst? I really wanted to support the mouse since I liked what you did with it but without smooth sides I can't really see myself using it unfortunately.


What if the sides are going to feel like smooth sides though?


----------



## CorruptBE

bst said:


> Heres a pic of how the side buttons attach, to remove them, you just prise them off where the red arrows are pointing to, using your fingernail.
> 
> https://snag.gy/PvkWa5.jpg


Hmmz that's the type of design that often triggers M4/M5 button presses with enough pressure on the side of the mouse.


----------



## bst

cdcd said:


> bst, do you have any news regarding the cable? If so, has the Motospeed cable you submitted (if I recall correctly) passed regulations?


Not yet, the tests aren't done until there is a pre-production sample. I will of course post as soon as I know. I know I don't make many updates, but its just because there really isn't much to say, but this would be something to say 



lurkerguy said:


> So sidebutton blanks are now confirmed? There goes my interest in the mouse.
> 
> Do you allow for refunds bst? I really wanted to support the mouse since I liked what you did with it but without smooth sides I can't really see myself using it unfortunately.


Yeah, its confirmed, I didn't really have any choice in the end.

I don't really want to give a refund for a relatively small thing though, this is a bit different from a pre-order, I don't want to set a precedent where if something small changes everyone can have a refund. Its not like if I refund people, the mouse still gets released, when its out of money, its over. So I have to be as careful as I can with that, but its not easy.

This isn't about me being greedy or evil, I don't make any money out of this crowd fund, I mean I literally get nothing at all from it except the company gets a new product, that might one day turn a profit in the future. Its about not letting things get out of hand. If I give a refund to 10 people, then say no more, its just as bad as saying no in the first place. I do have to do that, or it makes a crowd fund pointless if people can back out mid way. Of course if someone has some kind of emergency and desperately needed to back out, I would, or if I had provided no alternative to smooth side panels, I would of course be taking away something significant from the original idea.

Another thing is this - I have said the blanks feel good, they aren't "kind of" good, they're great, you can't even feel them. Even if you run your finger over them, its hard to tell where they begin and end. So in a way it comes down to trust, you've trusted me with lots of other aspects of the mouse, which honestly were way more difficult, like the clicks, the adjustable sensor, the whole modular nature of the mouse. You just need to trust one more thing.

I think that unless it just messes with you psychologically, just the fact that you know they're there, even if you can't feel them, you'll be fine with them. The tolerance for this part is less than 0.1mm, about as thick as a human hair. Or about the same height as the grain finish on the WMO. So you see what I mean when I say its a relatively tiny thing?

Last thing: The stock will be low when the mouse is released, so that means two things: 1) If you have one, you'll be able to sell it easily, 2) If you don't have one, and see everyone saying how the blanks aren't a problem at all, you might wish you had it 



CorruptBE said:


> Hmmz that's the type of design that often triggers M4/M5 button presses with enough pressure on the side of the mouse.


You don't know the entire design though 

You see most mice with this design don't brace the side panel, but I have braced it, so its very difficult to squeeze the sides in. Take a look at the cylinder thats in the middle of them, that makes contact with the inner shell, which is further braced by the PCB, and also, at the bottom, you see those little ribs? They make contact with bracing on the base. Then, the back of the side panel is braced against the top cover, and then bottom of the side panel is braced against a rib running along the base.

You can of course squeeze it so hard that the side buttons activate, but it has to be so hard that if you held the mouse like that for 5 minutes let alone hours, your hand would get serious cramp  I don't think I've ever seen a mouse where there is absolutely no way to do it.

Heres a pic showing where there is bracing on the side panel:
https://snag.gy/etwyRu.jpg


----------



## Menthalion

That sounds awesome BST ! I for one am very pleased with the blank option, especially since it means less clutter on parts I'm not going to use anyway.


----------



## Ukkooh

Are you still in line with the estimated timeline of backers getting the mice in december or is it going to take longer? I completely understand if you don't want to comment on this.


----------



## Klopfer

@bst 
skate design final?
I heared Corepad really wanna make 3rd Party skatez for the Astrum and tried to get in contact with you ...


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> Are you still in line with the estimated timeline of backers getting the mice in december or is it going to take longer? I completely understand if you don't want to comment on this.


Its definitely going to take longer, I think its delayed by 2 months, but I just have to see how the tooling goes over the next week or so. With any luck, they'll be sent out before the Chinese New Year which is Feb 5th. So if the original date was Dec 15, now its more like Feb 15.

I know it sucks to wait, but 2 months isn't that long, considering it's going to be a much better mouse. 



Klopfer said:


> @bst
> skate design final?
> I heared Corepad really wanna make 3rd Party skatez for the Astrum and tried to get in contact with you ...


Yeah, the skate design is final now. I don't remember seeing anything from Corepad, I'll have to go back and check. Its possible that I didn't have a final design at the time, that I didn't reply to their message straight away, and it just got buried. Depends when it was, the last 2 months or so have been so crazy. The good thing is now I have more time, I can focus on things like this.


----------



## Klopfer

bst said:


> Yeah, the skate design is final now. I don't remember seeing anything from Corepad, I'll have to go back and check. Its possible that I didn't have a final design at the time, that I didn't reply to their message straight away, and it just got buried. Depends when it was, the last 2 months or so have been so crazy. The good thing is now I have more time, I can focus on things like this.


 I also wrote u a pm here on OC , and Ninox Helpdesk ...
corepad is a sub-company of Com-Tra ...
[email protected]
or [email protected] ... thats the Email Im using often to have a conversation with Maik ...
owner is Maik Schöphörster ...


----------



## empyr

At this point 2 months isn't that bad, but I hope the company dealing with all the packages isn't going to duck it up, once they have the flood gates opened. Either way, hope to see a update with pictures from the tooling and more soon.


----------



## empyr

Any idea when the next update is coming @bst?


----------



## popups

So the mouse is being released around the same time as Finalmouse's new release? Not a great idea. The same type of consumer as this mouse is definitely going to get the Finalmouse over this mouse.


----------



## Ukkooh

popups said:


> So the mouse is being released around the same time as Finalmouse's new release? Not a great idea. The same type of consumer as this mouse is definitely going to get the Finalmouse over this mouse.


There is no certainty that the next finalmouse is a mouse at all.


----------



## empyr

popups said:


> So the mouse is being released around the same time as Finalmouse's new release? Not a great idea. The same type of consumer as this mouse is definitely going to get the Finalmouse over this mouse.


I'll just assume you don't follow this thread, but there's no Astrum release in December. If you did, not sure how you came to that conclusion.


----------



## popups

I think I did say around the same time, not the same month. I think Finalmouse said they are announcing their new product on the first of December and some people will get a chance to buy the early batch soon after. So, the average person will get access to their product when the second batch is made which takes about a month, that is around the time this mouse is to be released. Thus people will have a decision to make: The very anticipated Finalmouse or the not well known Ninox Astrum.


----------



## gunit2004

popups said:


> I think I did say around the same time, not the same month. I think Finalmouse said they are announcing their new product on the first of December and some people will get a chance to buy the early batch soon after. So, the average person will get access to their product when the second batch is made which takes about a month, that is around the time this mouse is to be released. Thus people will have a decision to make: The very anticipated Finalmouse or the not well known Ninox Astrum.


You don't have to wait till the first of December. I'm going to go to the toilet and make a Finalmouse right now.


----------



## empyr

popups said:


> I think I did say around the same time, not the same month. I think Finalmouse said they are announcing their new product on the first of December and some people will get a chance to buy the early batch soon after. So, the average person will get access to their product when the second batch is made which takes about a month, that is around the time this mouse is to be released. Thus people will have a decision to make: The very anticipated Finalmouse or the not well known Ninox Astrum.


From what I understood, ordering will be opened at the event/during/after (?). You can buy it there too. There is no "second batch" according to FM. It's like the Phantom. But who knows, things change. Either way, people that backed the project may get it in February but that's not really set in stone if you read bst's post. Not sure what it matters in the end, since people that didn't back won't get it at the same time. But whatever I feel like I replied to a troll. 😞


----------



## Avalar

Duuude, I'd love to see Finalmouse tank hard if their new mouse and the Astrum come out around the same time. Get on some advertising or something, maybe send out a few prototypes to some VIPs. Finalmouse runs out of mice in a few hours, but you can still get the Astrum. Would be great.


----------



## bst

It doesn't matter that much even if it did come out at the same time as FM, because there isn't going to be loads of stock anyway. It will be fairly slow to gain any traction, the main thing I want is just for it to be a good mouse that people like, get good feedback and reviews, and just keep building on it in 2019.


----------



## hisXLNC

bst said:


> It doesn't matter that much even if it did come out at the same time as FM, because there isn't going to be loads of stock anyway. It will be fairly slow to gain any traction, the main thing I want is just for it to be a good mouse that people like, get good feedback and reviews, and just keep building on it in 2019.


im using the FM ultralight sunset and im waiting for the ninox astrum i preordered to come so i can throw the FM into my drawer with the other mice i no longer use


----------



## BurningPlayd0h

Even my Venator is higher quality than the FM mouse I tried, despite people's crying about the build quality of the Venator. Over a year of use and it's scroll wheel, clicks, everything are still going strong. Can't say the same about my friend's Ultralight.


----------



## vanir1337

BurningPlayd0h said:


> Even my Venator is higher quality than the FM mouse I tried, despite people's crying about the build quality of the Venator. Over a year of use and it's scroll wheel, clicks, everything are still going strong. Can't say the same about my friend's Ultralight.


My black Venator is in use for almost a year now, it has seen some heavy gaming, I've attended several LAN events with it etc—zero issues.


----------



## Elrick

BurningPlayd0h said:


> Even my Venator is higher quality than the FM mouse I tried, despite people's crying about the build quality of the Venator.


Purchased the very FIRST run of these mice, hence my scroll wheel was dodgy as hell but the rest of the mouse had worked.

The later releases which I also purchased had fixed the scroll wheel, so BST did listen to us and actually made a far better product compared to most other manufacturers.

Can't talk about Final Mouse other than to avoid at all costs (due to previous purchases).



BurningPlayd0h said:


> Over a year of use and it's scroll wheel, clicks, everything are still going strong. Can't say the same about my friend's Ultralight.


First model got tossed away but the current, later models are still being used, no complaints whatsoever.

BST listens that is why when he releases another product, might wait for the mid term models hoping that any mistakes would be fixed. Although my patience for his latest releases always gets me excited so a purchase nearly always happen.

It's now almost automatic, when it comes to any new BST model.


----------



## 508859

empyr said:


> I'll just assume you don't follow this thread, but there's no Astrum release in December. If you did, not sure how you came to that conclusion.


indiegogo page still shows the timeline with manufacturing & QC completion - 16 november, project completion 7 december, estimated delivery - december. so it was not unreasonable on his side to expect similar release dates. 

It would be good to put an update with new timeline maybe, there hasn't been any updates for almost a month


----------



## empyr

numberfive said:


> indiegogo page still shows the timeline with manufacturing & QC completion - 16 november, project completion 7 december, estimated delivery - december. so it was not unreasonable on his side to expect similar release dates.
> 
> It would be good to put an update with new timeline maybe, there hasn't been any updates for almost a month


 Not really. He must have read the thread since he didn't reply to me regarding that. I was refering to post #1540 by bst (which was 4 posts before his), obviously the timeline has changed, it's simply not updated on indiegogo. Nothing is from the original showcase.

But i agree, giving a update to people on indiegogo and overall updating the page would be a good idea.


----------



## o0Cosmo0o

I like the idea of a customizable mouse with swappable shells, I hope to find one in a shop in my country when it will be released.


----------



## bst

I'm just waiting for the factory to give me an update, then I should know enough to update the timeline. It won't be too much longer and I should have everything pretty well estimated and it should be more accurate this time as well.


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> I'm just waiting for the factory to give me an update, then I should know enough to update the timeline. It won't be too much longer and I should have everything pretty well estimated and it should be more accurate this time as well.


I assume that's going to be around next week then?


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I'm just waiting for the factory to give me an update, then I should know enough to update the timeline. It won't be too much longer and I should have everything pretty well estimated and it should be more accurate this time as well.



When this baby goes live, watch the Stampede for it.

Pity there won't be some kind of full on Battle in a ring, where the Winner walks away with a Ninox Astrum.

Two walk in and only One walks away - Alive and Triumphant :medieval:.


----------



## lainx

Man, my G pro's middle mouse button is shot, which i've solved by binding M3 to the DPI button.
..But it's started to double click now.
I hope it survives 'til this drops!



Elrick said:


> When this baby goes live, watch the Stampede for it.
> 
> Pity there won't be some kind of full on Battle in a ring, where the Winner walks away with a Ninox Astrum.
> 
> Two walk in and only One walks away - Alive and Triumphant :medieval:.


Lol. Start a kickstarter where everyone has to pay a $1000 buy-in. Last man standing gets the Ninox, while you get rich!
Win-win!

_The Austrum Royale!_


----------



## pez

Ukkooh said:


> There is no certainty that the next finalmouse is a mouse at all.


As someone who follows them on Twitter, this is the single greatest comment I've read in a while about FM. Thanks of that laugh .


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> I'm just waiting for the factory to give me an update, then I should know enough to update the timeline. It won't be too much longer and I should have everything pretty well estimated and it should be more accurate this time as well.



So did you hear back from them?


----------



## Ukkooh

empyr said:


> So did you hear back from them?


The factory must be too busy making the "too hard to manufacture" part for the new finalmouse.


----------



## empyr

Ukkooh said:


> empyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> So did you hear back from them?
> 
> 
> 
> The factory must be too busy making the "too hard to manufacture" part for the new finalmouse.
Click to expand...

Oof


----------



## bst

I will make an update soon, I talk to the factory every day, at the moment I'm still quite busy because as the tooling is going on, I've had to make some adjustments, but they're not all easy to make. Sometimes things in the model just don't like being changed, even if it looks simple 

I'll try to cover as much as I can in the update, I just need a bit of time to focus on it. I know its overdue for one and people want to know how things are going.


----------



## bst

I've been working on the colours, I think they're all good now, I wasn't completely satisfied with them before. Its hard to photograph them, and they are just colour tests using the Venator shell, so thats why they aren't perfect looking (you can see the indent where the old logo is underneath etc).

https://snag.gy/Xa6qcw.jpg
https://snag.gy/af4ixv.jpg
https://snag.gy/7BNzQ1.jpg

The blue and grey look a bit glossy in the pics, but they aren't, its just the shimmer. The white and red look a bit flat, but they're nice in reality, the red has a silver undercoat so it picks up the light really nicely when you move it around. Its just hard to show it.

I'm still waiting on purple and black, and the dark chrome will be a little later, I'll post some photos when I get them though


----------



## Ukkooh

Any idea if the changes you had to do to the model are going to add weight?


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> Any idea if the changes you had to do to the model are going to add weight?


About 1-1.5g, I had to make the panels slightly thicker, or they may have had sink marks. Any kind of ribs or protrusions have to be a lot thinner than the wall they come out from, or it leaves a mark (indentation) on the other side. But you reach a point where you can't make it thinner, so you have to make the wall it comes out from thicker instead.

Edit: Actually I have changed to a lighter cable for the sensor (thin ribbon type), which is about a gram or so lighter than the old one, so overall there shouldn't be much difference in weight. Lost about the same amount on the cable as gained on the plastic parts


----------



## empyr

Just curious if you looked at matching the color of the cable to the mouse yet?

Overall, i hope you end up with something very similiar to the DM1 FPS / Phantom cable. I'd like to avoid having to paracord this time around.


----------



## Elrick

empyr said:


> Just curious if you looked at matching the color of the cable to the mouse yet?
> 
> Overall, i hope you end up with something very similiar to the DM1 FPS / Phantom cable. I'd like to avoid having to paracord this time around.


Couldn't care less about the cable nor if it's sheaved inside any 'panty-hose' material.

Just want to be able to BUY it.


Even though I love my new mx518 (updated) it's mouse cable is fantastic, 2 meters in length but narrow and light, just like their G102/203 series I still want to see and own this latest BST edition.

BST needs to concentrate on the actual mouse being completely finished and ready to be distributed. Otherwise this could go on for another year of 'Umming and Ahhing' about the details that seem quite ludicrous.


----------



## empyr

Elrick said:


> empyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious if you looked at matching the color of the cable to the mouse yet?
> 
> Overall, i hope you end up with something very similiar to the DM1 FPS / Phantom cable. I'd like to avoid having to paracord this time around. /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't care less about the cable nor if it's sheaved inside any 'panty-hose' material.
> 
> Just want to be able to BUY it.
> 
> 
> Even though I love my new mx518 (updated) it's mouse cable is fantastic, 2 meters in length but narrow and light, just like their G102/203 series I still want to see and own this latest BST edition.
> 
> BST needs to concentrate on the actual mouse being completely finished and ready to be distributed. Otherwise this could go on for another year of 'Umming and Ahhing' about the details that seem quite ludicrous.
Click to expand...

No. The flexibility of the cable is a important feature for many people. Thus DM1 FPS / Phantom being two good examples of that it's possible. The coloring is just a gimmick that was brought up that might be cool. Overall you may think the flexibility of the cable don't matter but there's a pretty good reason that people paracord mice in the first place. DM1 FPS / Phantom isn't as good as a real paracord but its good enough considering it technically passes with the requirements for shielding.


----------



## Elrick

empyr said:


> DM1 FPS / Phantom isn't as good as a real paracord but its good enough considering it technically passes with the requirements for shielding.


Have that very same FPS model (first sold on Max Gaming) as well and their cable is shoddy, dodgy looking and feels so cheap (despite the product's cost). They didn't use quality paracord but the cheapest one going instead.

The Logitech cables especially the G102/203 series is superb. Light flexible and above all else, very tiny in diameter hence the quality shows when it's used.

Would rather have a tight cable, than something that looks like's it's Pyjama's are coming off and taking up a lot of space. People want to buy QUALITY not cheapness with a very expensive price tag.


----------



## bst

The cables can be colour matched. The only thing I don't know is if the factory can get their supplier to do it for the low order quantity. Will find out soon. But if not, I'll just go with black.

Now the lack of shielding, and whether that is a concern or not, is not easy to get an answer for. I think if it passes, then it passes, so it should be ok. In the USB 2 specifications it does say a shield is required, but its very specific about what kind of shield, and I don't think I know any mice that actually use that shield. So pretty much everyone is going against the spec in one way or another anyway. My engineer who's worked with EMI before says a mouse is such a low power device that its not really an issue.

As for the shoelace/phantom cord being cheap, well, its just a braided cable with no shield. I probably could get the paracord material if I just send it to them and ask them to match it. I know the silicone wires aren't easy to get, and they are maybe a bit too flexible for a OE anyway.


----------



## BurningPlayd0h

Elrick said:


> Have that very same FPS model (first sold on Max Gaming) as well and their cable is shoddy, dodgy looking and feels so cheap (despite the product's cost). They didn't use quality paracord but the cheapest one going instead.
> 
> *The Logitech cables especially the G102/203 series is superb. Light flexible and above all else, very tiny in diameter hence the quality shows when it's used.
> *
> Would rather have a tight cable, than something that looks like's it's Pyjama's are coming off and taking up a lot of space. People want to buy QUALITY not cheapness with a very expensive price tag.


Either they completely changed the G203 cable or you have a strange opinion. No rubber cable I've had other than Zowie has actually been flexible at all compared to my paracord. IDK what FM's para-cables are like since I haven't seen one in person but... nylon paracord sheathing is what it is. Unless there was something obviously wrong like bad weave or a completely different material I can't see how it would be "cheaper" than any of the other aftermarket offerings.


----------



## qsxcv

pretty sure unbraided deathadder cables are thinner and more flexible than zowie ones

logi 102/203 cables are somewhat thicker than unbraided deathadder cables but less rubbery/floppy.


----------



## muso

quick question, i ordered on indigogo when the mouse was first announced put in all my deets etc. Will i just get it sent to me eventually when its ready or do i have to do another step to confirm order/details/shipping address again once its produced?

also not sure if i saw it somewhere once but this isn't using the 3360 its using another one that's just as good right?


----------



## bst

muso said:


> quick question, i ordered on indigogo when the mouse was first announced put in all my deets etc. Will i just get it sent to me eventually when its ready or do i have to do another step to confirm order/details/shipping address again once its produced?
> 
> also not sure if i saw it somewhere once but this isn't using the 3360 its using another one that's just as good right?


Yes, it'll just be sent to you, no need to confirm anything. All that will happen is at a certain point, the details will be locked, and in order to change them (if you needed to), you would need to send a message, rather than being able to update them on Indiegogo. But I'm leaving that until the last possible moment to keep it easy for people.

The sensor it uses is the 3389, which is the same basic sensor as the 3360, just with some improvements like finer control of the DPI steps (50 instead of 100).


----------



## ncck

muso said:


> quick question, i ordered on indigogo when the mouse was first announced put in all my deets etc. Will i just get it sent to me eventually when its ready or do i have to do another step to confirm order/details/shipping address again once its produced?
> 
> also not sure if i saw it somewhere once but this isn't using the 3360 its using another one that's just as good right?


3389 now


----------



## duhizy

is there an ETA on when these hit market? Sometime December maybe?


----------



## ncck

duhizy said:


> is there an ETA on when these hit market? Sometime December maybe?


February? is more likely


----------



## empyr

duhizy said:


> is there an ETA on when these hit market? Sometime December maybe?


If you backed the project (the "latest update" - note that it's hardly set in stone at all yet):



bst said:


> Its definitely going to take longer, I think its delayed by 2 months, but I just have to see how the tooling goes over the next week or so. With any luck, they'll be sent out before the Chinese New Year which is Feb 5th. So if the original date was Dec 15, now its more like Feb 15.
> 
> I know it sucks to wait, but 2 months isn't that long, considering it's going to be a much better mouse.


If you didn't, shortly after i would assume. I believe bst said a while back, that Amazon would be selling it atleast (not sure if that's changed).


----------



## mksteez

duhizy said:


> is there an ETA on when these hit market? Sometime December maybe?


a FEW more months..


----------



## bst

I think feb/march is realistic.

I know people don't want to hear it, but it just can't happen any faster. I could possibly have got it out on time if I had rushed it and not bothered to improve things, but I think thats the wrong way to go.

I've been super careful with everything I've done, testing on the highest definition 3D prints for the most accurate representation of injection molding, and that has added quite a bit of time. But it is the right way to do it, there were a couple of times where if I hadn't tested it, there would have been mistakes, and probably no one down the line would have noticed until it was too late. Things like that can stop the whole project, because there might not be enough funds to fix the problem. I've seen a few crowdfunds go this way and its always a huge disaster. 

I just want people to know that everything I'm doing is in the best interests of the people who backed the mouse, even if it might not seem like it because there isn't much news.

Its a difficult time at the moment, because I don't have much to show, everything that would put people's minds at ease happens near the end, like photos of the injection molded mouse, and pre-production review samples. Its all just boring news and promises before that happens. The good thing is that I think in early January we will get a couple of independent previews of the mouse, so I think that will make people happier and more confident.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I think feb/march is realistic.


BRILLIANT, you are now marked on my workshop Calendar for this.



bst said:


> I just want people to know that everything I'm doing is in the best interests of the people who backed the mouse, even if it might not seem like it because there isn't much news.



We are not babies needing constant attention and needing our nappies changed every hour. Take your time if it means a far better product is released later on.



bst said:


> The good thing is that I think in early January we will get a couple of independent previews of the mouse, so I think that will make people happier and more confident.



Shall be awaiting those reviews with great excitement because your Gear, are one of the unique brand products that actually delivers for all Gamers.


----------



## shatterboxd3

bst said:


> I think feb/march is realistic.
> 
> I know people don't want to hear it, but it just can't happen any faster. I could possibly have got it out on time if I had rushed it and not bothered to improve things, but I think thats the wrong way to go.
> 
> I've been super careful with everything I've done, testing on the highest definition 3D prints for the most accurate representation of injection molding, and that has added quite a bit of time. But it is the right way to do it, there were a couple of times where if I hadn't tested it, there would have been mistakes, and probably no one down the line would have noticed until it was too late. Things like that can stop the whole project, because there might not be enough funds to fix the problem. I've seen a few crowdfunds go this way and its always a huge disaster.
> 
> I just want people to know that everything I'm doing is in the best interests of the people who backed the mouse, even if it might not seem like it because there isn't much news.
> 
> Its a difficult time at the moment, because I don't have much to show, everything that would put people's minds at ease happens near the end, like photos of the injection molded mouse, and pre-production review samples. Its all just boring news and promises before that happens. The good thing is that I think in early January we will get a couple of independent previews of the mouse, so I think that will make people happier and more confident.



The problem that people have with delayed releases is largely due to a lack of communication. However, you've been here in the thread actively posting and keeping us updated, and not blowing smoke up our asses about the delays. For that, we can happily wait. We eagerly but patiently await a great product! Thanks BST.


----------



## ewiggle

shatterboxd3 said:


> The problem that people have with delayed releases is largely due to a lack of communication. However, you've been here in the thread actively posting and keeping us updated, and not blowing smoke up our asses about the delays. For that, we can happily wait. We eagerly but patiently await a great product! Thanks BST.


Basically this.


----------



## hisXLNC

i suggest updating on indiegogo as well, as not everyone who pledged there follows this forum


----------



## Rhys7

will this be any use for a left handed user 21.5cm by 11cm... i know originaly there would be left handed shells not sure whats changed...


----------



## iBerggman

Rhys7 said:


> will this be any use for a left handed user 21.5cm by 11cm... i know originaly there would be left handed shells not sure whats changed...


At 133mm it's a bit longer than most mice so I suppose that will help but in the end no one can tell you if it will work, especially when we don't know your grip and/or preferences. I mean I have roughly 20cm hands and prefer 130mm+ long mice but I know other people with similar hand size prefer small mice like the G Pro and would like to go even smaller so you'll just have to try to make a guess based on the dimensions and pictures. 

Also, the mouse still comes with the parts for all 3 shapes on both sides so the configuration options are going to be the exact same for both left and right hand users.


----------



## Avalar

iBerggman said:


> At 133mm it's a bit longer than most mice so I suppose that will help but in the end no one can tell you if it will work, especially when we don't know your grip and/or preferences. I mean I have roughly 20cm hands and prefer 130mm+ long mice but I know other people with similar hand size prefer small mice like the G Pro and would like to go even smaller so you'll just have to try to make a guess based on the dimensions and pictures.
> 
> Also, the mouse still comes with the parts for all 3 shapes on both sides so the configuration options are going to be the exact same for both left and right hand users.


A lot of that 133mm is just button overhang, and doesn't affect the shape of the mouse.


----------



## k0fz

Rhys7 said:


> will this be any use for a left-handed user 21.5cm by 11cm... i know originally there would be left-handed shells not sure whats changed...


If you're a palm gripper like me, then I'd say no, but neither is any other mouse imo. This mouse will allow you to 3D print your own shell for it though, so then you can make a bigger one. That's what I'll do.

All mice are made for the average male hand size (189mm long and 84mm wide) or just slightly smaller/bigger. My hand is about 210mm long and 90mm wide. Or well, 105mm wide if you include the thumb like Rocket Jump Ninja does in his videos, which I don't understand why he does, makes no sense to me. I assume that's what you did when you measured yours.

Anyways, the side buttons are always placed too far back and the curve for the thumb is always too short on all mice with our hand size. You're going to want a longer back, something like in the picture I attached below.

It should probably also be about 3mm taller and wider, at least for a 90mm wide hand like I have.


----------



## iBerggman

Avalar said:


> A lot of that 133mm is just button overhang, and doesn't affect the shape of the mouse.


Sure but it still adds to the usable length, for lack of a better word, so it still counts for something if you ask me? It might not affect the overall characteristics of the mouse but it sure is going to chance the way it feels at the front especially if your fingers would be hanging over the edge without that overhang, no? Looking at dimensions blindly is pointless anyway, I just like to use 130mm as a general length guideline for me since that's what I've found gives enough space for me to feel comfortable.


----------



## k0fz

I believe a longer back is the most important thing like I mentioned above, at least if you use a palm grip and have around my hand size/shape or bigger. But despite that, you'd still need this extra centimeter of button overhang like the Astrum has, so it's great that it has that.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

:Redacted:


----------



## muso

i originally ordered the luna edition, any information on what the rubber coating is going to be like? i'm sure even with your QC it may just not be that good for longevity. Is it possible to get color changes pre production?


----------



## MaximilianKohler

bst said:


> These are the measurements, I forgot before to include the mouse feet in the height, so its 40mm.
> Alpha: 133 x 58 x 40mm (LxWxH)
> Beta: 133 x 68 x 40mm
> Gamma: 133 x 73 x 40mm
> 
> 133mm long might sound quite large, but its just because the buttons extend out at the front. If you look at the side view, the base of the mouse is 124mm long, then theres 9mm of button overhang. So basically just an extra cm for those with longer fingers.



Dude, 58mm Width is ridiculous. 



Wheel mouse optical width should be a bare minimum for any mouse. Your mouse is going to be unusable due to hand cramping. I can't believe you haven't learned anything from the Aurora. Not only have you not learned anything but you made the problem *even worse*!! Down to 58 from 61 which was already too thin and caused cramping.



WMO: dimensions: 124mm L, *66.6mm *W, 39.6mm H


The Beta and Gamma shapes are not good. The Alpha shape either needs to have width equal to or greater than 66.6mm, or it needs to be adjustable to that width.


----------



## iBerggman

MaximilianKohler said:


> Dude, 58mm Width is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> Wheel mouse optical width should be a bare minimum for any mouse. Your mouse is going to be unusable due to hand cramping. I can't believe you haven't learned anything from the Aurora. Not only have you not learned anything but you made the problem *even worse*!! Down to 58 from 61 which was already too thin and caused cramping.
> 
> 
> 
> WMO: dimensions: 124mm L, *66.6mm *W, 39.6mm H
> 
> 
> The Beta and Gamma shapes are not good. The Alpha shape either needs to have width equal to or greater than 66.6mm, or it needs to be adjustable to that width.


The thing is a lot of people are the complete opposite and would like a mouse that's even smaller than the Aurora. Personally, I think the width on the Beta shapes sounds pretty close to perfect for me but even in this thread I've seen people mention it's way too wide for them. Anyway it makes more sense to start with a bit smaller base that you then can add extra width to with thicker side panels if that's what you're after. I mean, you could easily add another 4-5mm on the Alpha side parts and have them 3d printed if you wanted an Alpha Astrum with WMO width.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

MaximilianKohler said:


> WMO: dimensions: 124mm L, *66.6mm *W, 39.6mm H


That's not really corect. The WMO measurement is from the back while the Ninox Astrum measurement is frome the middle.

WMO: 124mm (L), 66.6mm (W), 39.6mm (H): ~58mm (Middle)

Ninox Astrum: 133 (L), 67.5 (W), 39.6 (H): 58 (Middle)


----------



## a_ak57

I just checked with a caliper and I can verify that the WMO is 58mm at the grip point. So there's nothing to freak out unless you're going to argue that the WMO is an unusable, hand cramping shape.


----------



## bst

muso said:


> i originally ordered the luna edition, any information on what the rubber coating is going to be like? i'm sure even with your QC it may just not be that good for longevity. Is it possible to get color changes pre production?


The rubber coating is good, it should be just as strong as paint, I have tested it with a few abrasion tests, like a crosshatch test and machine polishing test, and its very durable. So if rubber coating is what you wanted, I would suggest sticking with it. If it does wear away, it will be covered by the warranty.



MaximilianKohler said:


> Dude, 58mm Width is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> Wheel mouse optical width should be a bare minimum for any mouse. Your mouse is going to be unusable due to hand cramping. I can't believe you haven't learned anything from the Aurora. Not only have you not learned anything but you made the problem *even worse*!! Down to 58 from 61 which was already too thin and caused cramping.
> 
> 
> 
> WMO: dimensions: 124mm L, *66.6mm *W, 39.6mm H
> 
> 
> The Beta and Gamma shapes are not good. The Alpha shape either needs to have width equal to or greater than 66.6mm, or it needs to be adjustable to that width.


66.6mm isn't the grip width of the WMO, its the width of the flares at the sides. Its grip width is 58mm.

Something else you have to bear in mind is the straight sides, they make it feel wider. But basically if you like the WMO and its grip width, you should be fine with the Astrum.

Btw, the dimensions have changed a little bit since it was redesigned: 132 L x 39.5 H x 66.5 W
The Alpha and gamma just have different widths, but the same height and length: 58mm (Alpha) and 78mm (Gamma).


----------



## MaximilianKohler

bst said:


> 66.6mm isn't the grip width of the WMO, its the width of the flares at the sides. Its grip width is 58mm.
> 
> Something else you have to bear in mind is the straight sides, they make it feel wider. But basically if you like the WMO and its grip width, you should be fine with the Astrum.
> 
> Btw, the dimensions have changed a little bit since it was redesigned: 132 L x 39.5 H x 66.5 W
> The Alpha and gamma just have different widths, but the same height and length: 58mm (Alpha) and 78mm (Gamma).


I tried the Aurora, which was 3mm wider than the Astrum Alpha. Aurora cramped my hands. Needs at least 65mm I would say. Otherwise unusable for palm grip. 

Finalmouse is straight sided too and 68mm W.


----------



## Ukkooh

MaximilianKohler said:


> Finalmouse is straight sided too and 68mm W.


What finalmouse do you mean? At least my UL sunset doesn't have straight sides.


----------



## bst

MaximilianKohler said:


> I tried the Aurora, which was 3mm wider than the Astrum Alpha. Aurora cramped my hands. Needs at least 65mm I would say. Otherwise unusable for palm grip.
> 
> Finalmouse is straight sided too and 68mm W.


The Finalmouse is actually about the same, 60mm grip width but it tapers down to less since it has slanted sides.

You can see in the video below, the calipers have at least 1mm space below them, so it is about 58mm width where you actually have your fingers.






I don't really know how you're confusing grip width with the overall width of the mouse 

Basically, 58mm is fine, if its too small for you, then you have pretty large hands, but its not correct to say its objectively a bad grip width.


----------



## popups

I like a middle width of about 60-62mm and a height of 38mm or lower.

I do think the WMO isn't the best shape it could be. I would modify it if I was developing a modern version.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

It would be pretty disconcerting if the FM ultralight lost 8-10mm width, but the info I have on the previous FM ambi mice have them at 68-70:

2016 ambi/"tournament pro": 3310, ~86-87g, 126mm L- 68mm W - 39mm H


Scream version: 3360, 126mm L - 68mm W - 39mm H, 1000hz,


But either way, it would be pretty terrible if this mouse designed around customizability was released with this one deal-breaking lack of customization.


----------



## bst

MaximilianKohler said:


> It would be pretty disconcerting if the FM ultralight lost 8-10mm width, but the info I have on the previous FM ambi mice have them at 68-70:
> 
> 2016 ambi/"tournament pro": 3310, ~86-87g, 126mm L- 68mm W - 39mm H
> 
> 
> Scream version: 3360, 126mm L - 68mm W - 39mm H, 1000hz,
> 
> 
> But either way, it would be pretty terrible if this mouse designed around customizability was released with this one deal-breaking lack of customization.


The Finalmouse isn't the same width all the way along its length, it widens out at the rear. The measurements you're talking about come from the widest point of the mouse.

Watch the video I posted, RJN measures it with calipers. Look at the picture I've attached to this post.


----------



## Ramla777

Didn't you talk about making a mini version of this if it sold well? I'd like something razer krait 2013 sized with side buttons and optical clicks one day.
WMO shape is still pretty big for me and makes it harder for me to aim as accurately. For my main I'm usually switching between the Logitech Pro Wireless and Ventus R because of the side button requirements though.
Will be curious to see how this mouse fits me when it comes in. Plus it should help me break my reaction time records.


----------



## MaximilianKohler

bst said:


> The Finalmouse isn't the same width all the way along its length, it widens out at the rear. The measurements you're talking about come from the widest point of the mouse.
> 
> Watch the video I posted, RJN measures it with calipers. Look at the picture I've attached to this post.


Yeah I saw that video before. Does it really gain 8 more mm at the rear though, and is it the same dimensions as the previous mice are my questions. And it seems a bit wider at the top, which might make a difference. 

And either way, like I said, I already tried the Aurora and it was so thin it cramped my hand in palm grip and thus unusable. And this one's even thinner. This made me buy a g203 just now to test, since that mouse seems like the widest ambi with low weight available.


----------



## a_ak57

The Aurora is wider at the very top, but it has a pretty significant slope. My measurements show grip width at the top as just over 60mm (the listed 61mm probably includes side buttons). But the grip width at the bottom is about 53.2mm. My thumb sits probably around 56mm. With the WMO, the grip width at top is 58.2mm, and at the bottom it's about 56.5mm, thumb at probably 57-57.5mm. I decided to check my wired G Pro: grip top is 62mm, grip bottom is roughly 51.5mm, thumb at just under 57mm.

Measurements shouldn't be looked at without context. The WMO/Astrum are functionally a bit wider than the Aurora and G Pro. They are not as big as a Finalmouse, but they aren't supposed to be. If you think the WMO is unusably thin, then this was never going to be a mouse for you anyway. But it's also an opinion that isn't shared by many.


----------



## 508859

MaximilianKohler said:


> Yeah I saw that video before. Does it really gain 8 more mm at the rear though, and is it the same dimensions as the previous mice are my questions. And it seems a bit wider at the top, which might make a difference.
> 
> And either way, like I said, I already tried the Aurora and it was so thin it cramped my hand in palm grip and thus unusable. And this one's even thinner. This made me buy a g203 just now to test, since that mouse seems like the widest ambi with low weight available.


I've just compared few of my mice to g203 and it was only wider than venator (by 4mm total) other mice either have same wideness or more - Revel, Kana, Sensei, GPW, WMO, IMO. not to mention the awful angled sides on g203


----------



## Ukkooh

Not necessarily directly related to the astrum but on your indiegogo picture it says the 3360 has 12k frame rate. Does 3389 have the same frame rate?


----------



## popups

Ukkooh said:


> Not necessarily directly related to the astrum but on your indiegogo picture it says the 3360 has 12k frame rate. Does 3389 have the same frame rate?


Doesn't matter because they're variable.


----------



## Ukkooh

popups said:


> Doesn't matter because they're variable.


I know its variable. Just curious thats all.


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> Not necessarily directly related to the astrum but on your indiegogo picture it says the 3360 has 12k frame rate. Does 3389 have the same frame rate?


I don't know, it doesn't say in the datasheet. It just says it has a self-adjusting variable frame rate. I would imagine the max frame rate would be the same or slightly higher though.


----------



## ov3rmind

@bst

No more discussion about new venator? I know you will care about astrum more than venator now but if you can make the shell, this is my dream about venator. I love it's size and weight(but if it's lighter, that'll be good) the way it changes dpi or else. But few features of venator to become my second mouse.
1. So deep hump. It makes my thumb so uncomfortable.
2. So low sensor position.
3. No place to put my ring finger.
4. Textured side. It makes me difficult to clean it.

If you have mind to make new venator shell, I'd be happy if you consult this.


So sad that astrum being delayed but I hope I can use it soon.


----------



## Klopfer

ov3rmind said:


> @bst
> 
> No more discussion about new venator? I know you will care about astrum more than venator now but if you can make the shell, this is my dream about venator. I love it's size and weight(but if it's lighter, that'll be good) the way it changes dpi or else. But few features of venator to become my second mouse.
> 1. So deep hump. It makes my thumb so uncomfortable.
> 2. So low sensor position.
> 3. No place to put my ring finger.
> 4. Textured side. It makes me difficult to clean it.
> 
> If you have mind to make new venator shell, I'd be happy if you consult this.
> 
> 
> So sad that astrum being delayed but I hope I can use it soon.


and the sidebuttons a bit more forward  , then I fully agree
Edit: and a rounded Back , not that sharp ...


----------



## tacomn

How do we reach you if we want to ask a question? Sent a msg on the indie page, on here, and on the ninox website like a month ago and still have not heard back.


----------



## bst

I was actually thinking of going back to the Astrum S idea, since I've thought more about it.

I think it'll be ok to do it, but I have to make it much more simplified. I think most people will be fine with the simplifications, and it'll make it much easier to design.

So it would scrap the adjustable sensor, side buttons on the right, and the 3 part shell design. Instead, it would be a base with the PCB attached, and swapable top shells.

All I can do is design it and get the price for the tooling, I'll add the alpha and beta shapes from the Astrum (but smaller versions ofc), and a new ergonomic shape (since being a whole shell, it can be a true ergo), and a Venator shape - and I would take into account the changes people wanted with that shape. If the tooling is really expensive though, one of them might have to be dropped 

I made a mockup in CAD and the weight was coming out at 56g without the cord for the small beta shape, so its pretty good.

Also a wireless version could be made quite easily, just by making a new base and PCB, the top shells would be compatible with it. So I'd probably go wired first just because the firmware is already done.

So depending on how people react, I could actually launch a crowd fund for it quite soon, since it takes time to get the funds in, and by the time it'll be ready, the Astrum will be made. But it means starting a crowd fund before the first one is fulfilled, which some people might not like the sound of. If I wait until the Astrum is released though, it would waste quite a bit of time.

Feel free to share your thoughts about it though. 



tacomn said:


> How do we reach you if we want to ask a question? Sent a msg on the indie page, on here, and on the ninox website like a month ago and still have not heard back.


I'm sorry, I've answered your question on here now


----------



## MentalOutOnline

56g for the Astrum but whats the dimensions?

whats the dimensions for the astrum s?


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> I was actually thinking of going back to the Astrum S idea, since I've thought more about it.
> 
> I think it'll be ok to do it, but I have to make it much more simplified. I think most people will be fine with the simplifications, and it'll make it much easier to design.
> 
> So it would scrap the adjustable sensor, side buttons on the right, and the 3 part shell design. Instead, it would be a base with the PCB attached, and swapable top shells.
> 
> All I can do is design it and get the price for the tooling, I'll add the alpha and beta shapes from the Astrum (but smaller versions ofc), and a new ergonomic shape (since being a whole shell, it can be a true ergo), and a Venator shape - and I would take into account the changes people wanted with that shape. If the tooling is really expensive though, one of them might have to be dropped /forum/images/smilies/frown.gif
> 
> I made a mockup in CAD and the weight was coming out at 56g without the cord for the small beta shape, so its pretty good.
> 
> Also a wireless version could be made quite easily, just by making a new base and PCB, the top shells would be compatible with it. So I'd probably go wired first just because the firmware is already done.
> 
> So depending on how people react, I could actually launch a crowd fund for it quite soon, since it takes time to get the funds in, and by the time it'll be ready, the Astrum will be made. But it means starting a crowd fund before the first one is fulfilled, which some people might not like the sound of. If I wait until the Astrum is released though, it would waste quite a bit of time.
> 
> Feel free to share your thoughts about it though.
> 
> 
> 
> tacomn said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do we reach you if we want to ask a question? Sent a msg on the indie page, on here, and on the ninox website like a month ago and still have not heard back.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I've answered your question on here now /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Click to expand...

Sounds awesome! 😄 I’m all for a super lightweight wired version, same size or smaller, either works for me. Wireless, too, but it might not be as popular atm with the recent release of the Logitech GPW. (or would it get _more_ attention?) I know I’d have to instabuy a wireless Astrum with weight on par or lower than Logitech’s and better QC. That would probably be the last mouse I buy outside of collecting others for the sake of it lol.


----------



## Ukkooh

If you are going to limit the modularity like that it would be better to just start focusing on individual models in my opinon.


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> If you are going to limit the modularity like that it would be better to just start focusing on individual models in my opinon.


I would prefer that, to be honest, but its not easy.

The problem is for each model there is a minimum order quantity. So 4 mice in one product needs a quarter of the funds that 4 separate products needs (1000 vs 1000*4 minimum order quantity).

It might be something I can negotiate, especially if I keep the PCB the same, and the packaging the same (just with a different barcode sticker on them). But I doubt it. They'll most likely want to make at least 1000 of each part, and having a 4-in-1 is a way to do that.

Its just a problem that a small company has when it wants to expand its range. This way costs more for the tooling, but its pretty flexible with the small minimum order quantities. Essentially four mice can be restocked at the price of one. Also, it can be changed into a single product lines in the future with small changes.


----------



## gipetto

I think you would have a bigger success with a low cost mouse. In my youth I built this t-rex pictured, the cutouts slot together quickly, and it was surprisingly strong when assembled. If you dispensed entirely with a molded plastic shell you could assemble a mouse shape from 2d pcb cutouts similar to how the t-rex was assembled, the center being hollow to accept the pcb of course. It would also be reminiscent of how a wooden boat hull is made. You would keep the custom shapes and light weight and save a substantial amount on tooling.


----------



## omrtpsycho

bst said:


> I was actually thinking of going back to the Astrum S idea, since I've thought more about it.
> 
> I think it'll be ok to do it, but I have to make it much more simplified. I think most people will be fine with the simplifications, and it'll make it much easier to design.
> 
> So it would scrap the adjustable sensor, side buttons on the right, and the 3 part shell design. Instead, it would be a base with the PCB attached, and swapable top shells.
> 
> All I can do is design it and get the price for the tooling, I'll add the alpha and beta shapes from the Astrum (but smaller versions ofc), and a new ergonomic shape (since being a whole shell, it can be a true ergo), and a Venator shape - and I would take into account the changes people wanted with that shape. If the tooling is really expensive though, one of them might have to be dropped
> 
> I made a mockup in CAD and the weight was coming out at 56g without the cord for the small beta shape, so its pretty good.
> 
> Also a wireless version could be made quite easily, just by making a new base and PCB, the top shells would be compatible with it. So I'd probably go wired first just because the firmware is already done.
> 
> So depending on how people react, I could actually launch a crowd fund for it quite soon, since it takes time to get the funds in, and by the time it'll be ready, the Astrum will be made. But it means starting a crowd fund before the first one is fulfilled, which some people might not like the sound of. If I wait until the Astrum is released though, it would waste quite a bit of time.
> 
> Feel free to share your thoughts about it though.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I've answered your question on here now


 @bst, the Astrum S sounds great, but don't you think it is time that indiegogo gets updated? You have left your product with a timeline that says that in 3 days, the project is complete (yes, leaving a note that you post updates at this forum is not an excuse, since even here, there are no real updates). People at reddit have started complaining, I myself opened a ticket for a refund (because of the super long delay and lack of clear info) and closed it myself, because noone replied in 4 days that the ticket was open (the automated reply said that my ticket would be reviewed in 24 hours).

I believe that you should focus more on the Astrum.


----------



## bst

omrtpsycho said:


> @bst, the Astrum S sounds great, but don't you think it is time that indiegogo gets updated? You have left your product with a timeline that says that in 3 days, the project is complete (yes, leaving a note that you post updates at this forum is not an excuse, since even here, there are no real updates). People at reddit have started complaining, I myself opened a ticket for a refund (because of the super long delay and lack of clear info) and closed it myself, because noone replied in 4 days that the ticket was open (the automated reply said that my ticket would be reviewed in 24 hours).
> 
> I believe that you should focus more on the Astrum.


Yes I agree, it is time Indiegogo is updated, although, there isn't really much news, not any more than you could find in the last comment I made in the comments section. But I am making a new timeline, its just been difficult to make it accurate. I'll also go through all the final specifications.

The thing is, now I have finished all the work I needed to do on the Astrum, the kind of things that take up all of my time, anyway. The tooling factory kept asking me to make changes, and things sound simple, "like make this area thicker", but its like untangling a huge ball of wool. The day just flies by with that kind of work, and its not interesting enough to make updates about. Take for example right now, all that is happening is blocks of steel are being milled out, and while it is an event to inform people about, its not something that has continual updates, it just begins, and takes time, and then its done, there isn't much in between to talk about, and its like that with the whole project really.

Basically I now have time to focus on communicating with the backers, and I also have time to design the Astrum S, since theres no big rush with that, I can do it when I have time, rather than needing to do it ASAP like the things I've been doing on the Astrum. I'm not going to let it get in the way of anything, its not a priority at the moment, its just that I do want to at least begin thinking about it and playing around with some shapes.

So don't worry, I know things haven't been ideal, but it'll get better now, I promise.


----------



## omrtpsycho

bst said:


> Yes I agree, it is time Indiegogo is updated, although, there isn't really much news, not any more than you could find in the last comment I made in the comments section. But I am making a new timeline, its just been difficult to make it accurate. I'll also go through all the final specifications.
> 
> The thing is, now I have finished all the work I needed to do on the Astrum, the kind of things that take up all of my time, anyway. The tooling factory kept asking me to make changes, and things sound simple, "like make this area thicker", but its like untangling a huge ball of wool. The day just flies by with that kind of work, and its not interesting enough to make updates about. Take for example right now, all that is happening is blocks of steel are being milled out, and while it is an event to inform people about, its not something that has continual updates, it just begins, and takes time, and then its done, there isn't much in between to talk about, and its like that with the whole project really.
> 
> Basically I now have time to focus on communicating with the backers, and I also have time to design the Astrum S, since theres no big rush with that, I can do it when I have time, rather than needing to do it ASAP like the things I've been doing on the Astrum. I'm not going to let it get in the way of anything, its not a priority at the moment, its just that I do want to at least begin thinking about it and playing around with some shapes.
> 
> So don't worry, I know things haven't been ideal, but it'll get better now, I promise.


 @bst Believe me, I know first hand (we all know actually) that there are 'updates' that are crucial in making a new product, but no one wants to know because they do not sound 'interesting'. But there are things that we DO want to know. Example: "I went/did not go with the alternative design (removable side buttons). The tooling is/is not complete. The production has begun and the mice will be ready by THEN and will be shipped to you by THEN. And that is final. Kind regards, BST." That would be a proper update.


----------



## ATH-YF

*Astrum S BASE idea*

Since you talk about the Astrum S BASE.. 
I wish you could take the worst case scenario in mind :

In a market without Small+Light+TopSensor models suiting *claw* & hybrid grips for *<18cm hands* I end up using the Ninox Aurora as my main driver since 2014 (signing all my YT fps highlights). 
Unfortunately to this day my favorite shape for that grip and hand size is held in the *MS Basic Optical Mouse*.


https://hc2.seikyou.ne.jp/home/flammie/img-hid/070726-2-1.jpg
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=...646-4760-a7b9-9958e3601438.jpg?n=pop4.jpg&f=1

Key features of this shape are:
- A bit Slimmer at the middle than the Aurora, this gives more amplitude for finger control (great for arm+finger aiming).
- Noticeable Bevel on the base contours (avoid friction on lifts/drops) 
- High enough sides with slight curves & tilted orientation (effortless lift, natural finger resting on claw grip).

B. O. M. shape is not made for palm grip (or middle size hands) obviously but this is where the modular concept of an Astrum system can help make the top shells fulfill the role once the base can secure the most restrictive scenario (palm grip solutions are easier to solve later on but shape shrinking is limited by the base).


I will be glad to join the kickstarter if the dimensions and weight get close to what I showed you but please please please keep it wired. (paracord mod is a more reliable and healthy option)


----------



## MaximilianKohler

I've never actually used the WMO. I reference it because I've historically virtually always seen people say it's the perfect mouse, and it was listed at 66.6mm width, which should be usable for me. 



I've just tried the Logitech G102/G203/Pro and it's definitely too thin and cramps my hand even quicker than the Aurora did. Maybe it's the slanted sides. They're excessively slanted. It's also only wider at the middle while the front and back are thinner so that may contribute as well. 



The sensor is impressing me though. Looks like Logitech finally figured out how to implement a sensor properly.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> Feel free to share your thoughts about it though.


I've always been anxious for the Astrum S. A mouse in the range of 115mm - 120mm length with straight sides |__|
is just so hard to come by. The Astrum will tide me over, but the Astrum S would still be my objective ideal, so I'd be in favor of pushing that as soon as you're comfortable. Also, the slight changes in regard to side buttons / lighter weight / etc. are all benefits in my eyes, so I'd vote in favor of that as well.

Just please keep the sides straight, hehe


----------



## Nx87

MattKelly said:


> I've always been anxious for the Astrum S. A mouse in the range of 115mm - 120mm length with straight sides |__|
> is just so hard to come by. The Astrum will tide me over, but the Astrum S would still be my objective ideal, so I'd be in favor of pushing that as soon as you're comfortable. Also, the slight changes in regard to side buttons / lighter weight / etc. are all benefits in my eyes, so I'd vote in favor of that as well.
> 
> Just please keep the sides straight, hehe


Me too, I joined the crowd funding on day#1 for the Astrum but I don't think I'll ever really use it since it's such an incredibly long mouse, I only did it for the community and the hope that one day we will get the small Astrum that'll be my GG mouse.


----------



## bst

Theres 3 options with the sides:

1) Have them 88.5 degrees instead of 90, the reason why is for the draft angle. So when the two halves of the mold open, it comes away easily. If the sides are perfectly 90 degrees, it kind of clamps in and when its pushed from the mold, it scratches it and can deform it.

2) Have them 90 degrees, and solve the draft angle problem by making the mold work in 4 directions. This means there will be a line where the side parts of the mold join with the top part. To avoid it looking rough it would need a little indent there to give the mold sides a nice place to meet.

3) Make the sides separate to the top, they'd have to clip or screw in. The downside to this is it will make it a bit heavier, and its not as sturdy as having one single part.

The best way to do it, IMO, is number 1, its the simplest and cleanest way. But I'm not sure how much different 88.5 degrees will feel vs 90 degrees. You can see the kind of difference it makes here: https://snag.gy/1Q0UO5.jpg


----------



## Ukkooh

Is the shape going to be \_/ or /_\ with the angles? I personally would prefer the 90 degree sides if option two doesn't risk the quality of it too much. After all the straight sides were one of the reasons the astrum is so exciting. Doing the 88.5 degree sides sounds like a risk if even you personally don't know how it is going to feel like.


----------



## bst

Like this: / \
I'll print one and see how it feels, it might not even be perceptible, since its just 1.5 degrees difference.

The 2nd option is what I think Logitech went with for the GPW, you can see the line where it looks like the left side of the mold meets the top part of the mold:
https://i.snag.gy/vjlwyR.jpg


----------



## dlul

bst said:


> Like this: / \
> I'll print one and see how it feels, it might not even be perceptible, since its just 1.5 degrees difference.
> 
> The 2nd option is what I think Logitech went with for the GPW, you can see the line where it looks like the left side of the mold meets the top part of the mold:
> https://i.snag.gy/vjlwyR.jpg


I don't mind the line, if you didn't mention it for the gpw i'd never have seen it. Also when the mouse is in your hand you can't see nor feel it 
Wouldn't the paint cover it more than the logitech coating ?

Also on the previously discussed topic of colored cables, I think it will look weird with the "bright" colors, as it will never be the same tint and texture, and you're better off with black cables.


----------



## anachronton

Wonder if I somehow could get a 3D printed shell similar for Logitech MX500 for this mouse. Shape close to MX500 and weight around 80 grams or below would be killer.


----------



## ATH-YF

bst said:


> Like this: / \


This orientation does not help to lift it using fingers on the sides.. 
One would need to apply more force than the opposite option of 90 degrees.

The situation is exaggerated by imagining to lift a oily pyramid with 2 cylinders. 
Same grip problem occurs with a too rounded surface (imo the core issue with the G203 sides during my tests)


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Yes I agree, it is time Indiegogo is updated, although, there isn't really much news, not any more than you could find in the last comment I made in the comments section. But I am making a new timeline, its just been difficult to make it accurate. I'll also go through all the final specifications.
> 
> The thing is, now I have finished all the work I needed to do on the Astrum, the kind of things that take up all of my time, anyway. The tooling factory kept asking me to make changes, and things sound simple, "like make this area thicker", but its like untangling a huge ball of wool. The day just flies by with that kind of work, and its not interesting enough to make updates about. Take for example right now, all that is happening is blocks of steel are being milled out, and while it is an event to inform people about, its not something that has continual updates, it just begins, and takes time, and then its done, there isn't much in between to talk about, and its like that with the whole project really.
> 
> Basically I now have time to focus on communicating with the backers, and I also have time to design the Astrum S, since theres no big rush with that, I can do it when I have time, rather than needing to do it ASAP like the things I've been doing on the Astrum. I'm not going to let it get in the way of anything, its not a priority at the moment, its just that I do want to at least begin thinking about it and playing around with some shapes.
> 
> So don't worry, I know things haven't been ideal, but it'll get better now, I promise.


I think a lot of people would appreciate if you updated the Indiegogo page, by the looks of it, there's quite a few people that don't browse OCN for your posts about Astrum.


Either way, I know this may be a stretch, but you don't happen to have a picture of the Black Chrome on a Venator shell right? (Or some other shell). Just curious what it looks like.


----------



## bst

dlul said:


> I don't mind the line, if you didn't mention it for the gpw i'd never have seen it. Also when the mouse is in your hand you can't see nor feel it
> Wouldn't the paint cover it more than the logitech coating ?


Yeah, it'll probably be fine. Actually it needs a 3 sided mold anyway because the side button holes need to be made on the left, so its probably not a big deal to make it a 4 sided one.



ATH-YF said:


> This orientation does not help to lift it using fingers on the sides..
> One would need to apply more force than the opposite option of 90 degrees
> 
> The situation is exaggerated by imagining to lift a oily pyramid with 2 cylinders.
> Same grip problem occurs with a too rounded surface (imo the core issue with the G203 sides during my tests)


I know, but I just don't know if 88.5 vs 90 degrees is that noticeable. If it were 80 vs 90 then obviously it would have a big effect, but 1.5 degrees is tiny. But honestly even though I think its the more robust and better looking choice, if it does feel slippery then its a no go. 



empyr said:


> I think a lot of people would appreciate if you updated the Indiegogo page, by the looks of it, there's quite a few people that don't browse OCN for your posts about Astrum.
> 
> Either way, I know this may be a stretch, but you don't happen to have a picture of the Black Chrome on a Venator shell right? (Or some other shell). Just curious what it looks like.


I will be updating it later today.

I don't have pictures of the black chrome one yet, sorry. It is coming though, I've just been perfecting it. If you look up black nickel on google images, thats a good representation of the colour and effect.


----------



## Aventadoor

Only way to get away with such grip is by having a very grippy surface, obviously.
I own a Zowie AM which is more of a / \ shape, and its glossy and sticks rather good to my hands which get a little moist when using it. 

With the correct surface, I dont see it being too much of a problem, but as others have mentioned, it wont do one any favours.


----------



## ATH-YF

> But honestly even though I think its the more robust and better looking choice, if it does feel slippery then its a no go.


Nuances like that are more appreciated on long sessions and after months of use.

I though you were clear choosing between look or functionality. 
Time proofing shapes don't make compromises that's why we miss them with modern internals after all.


----------



## lainx

gipetto said:


> I think you would have a bigger success with a low cost mouse. In my youth I built this t-rex pictured, the cutouts slot together quickly, and it was surprisingly strong when assembled. If you dispensed entirely with a molded plastic shell you could assemble a mouse shape from 2d pcb cutouts similar to how the t-rex was assembled, the center being hollow to accept the pcb of course. It would also be reminiscent of how a wooden boat hull is made. You would keep the custom shapes and light weight and save a substantial amount on tooling.


That T-Rex were the bomb! I absolutely loved it, but of course as a kid i managed to lose parts for it almost immediately.

I think i got it from a monthly subscription from a dinosaur lexicon. You got this binder and filled it with a new dinosaur each month or something.

Good times.

@bst i think if there's downtime from now until the Astrum releases, there's no downside in working on the S (CAD, 3d-printing, kickstarter information and whatnot).
I wouldn't start another kickstarter before seeing the first one through. It comes off as a cash grab which would indicate that there's issues with the first mouse. Managing time and keeping everything separate might be stressful too. It's good having things in the pipeline though for future releases.
Are you looking at getting the Astrum into stores? I think that would be a big priority. Getting your brand out so more people notice it which should help getting funds for a new version.
I would be cautious starting another kickstarter as said..
You would also have a successful kickstarter from before that would help boost the Astrum S's funding, since people can be more confident in you actually delivering.


----------



## Avalar

@bst Could we get an exact date of when the "In-Demand" phase on the crowdfunding page will end? I might be getting the final two colors I don't have near this Christmas, but I'd hate to miss it.


----------



## chort

bst said:


> Yeah, it'll probably be fine. Actually it needs a 3 sided mold anyway because the side button holes need to be made on the left, so its probably not a big deal to make it a 4 sided one.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, but I just don't know if 88.5 vs 90 degrees is that noticeable. If it were 80 vs 90 then obviously it would have a big effect, but 1.5 degrees is tiny. But honestly even though I think its the more robust and better looking choice, if it does feel slippery then its a no go.
> 
> 
> 
> I will be updating it later today.
> 
> I don't have pictures of the black chrome one yet, sorry. It is coming though, I've just been perfecting it. If you look up black nickel on google images, thats a good representation of the colour and effect.


2 days passed since you said you would update the indiegogo page, when is it due.


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> @bst Could we get an exact date of when the "In-Demand" phase on the crowdfunding page will end? I might be getting the final two colors I don't have near this Christmas, but I'd hate to miss it.


I'll keep it going right up until I place the order with the factory, so you've got until the beginning of Jan. I'll keep the black and white colours going for longer though, since they're not a special order, they'll be available.



chort said:


> 2 days passed since you said you would update the indiegogo page, when is it due.


I've posted the update now, sorry it took a bit longer than I said it would!


----------



## Ukkooh

You mentioned wait time being the reason for the switch from 3389 back to 3360. Since we are waiting anyway, would it be possible to use the 3389 for the crowdfund units or at least the indiegogo exclusive ones? Or is the mounting to the shell different between the PCBs?


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> You mentioned wait time being the reason for the switch from 3389 back to 3360. Since we are waiting anyway, would it be possible to use the 3389 for the crowdfund units or at least the indiegogo exclusive ones? Or is the mounting to the shell different between the PCBs?


The mounting for the lens and chip is exactly the same, so no problem there. The problem is mostly due to funds, if I change the sensor, then the mouse has to be re-certified, which basically I can't afford at the moment. Its hard enough to order in enough stock to sell enough so it can be re-stocked  Also, I don't want there to be too much confusion with firmware updates, every time theres an update there would have to be one for the 3389 and one for the 3360 

If the 3390 comes out soon, maybe that will be an option (if it doesn't also have long lead times), as long as its before certification, its easy to change them. But I get the impression the 3390 isn't going to be coming that soon, the factory didn't even know it existed and their suppliers have no news about it.


----------



## lurkerguy

Doesn't really matter if it's 3360 or one of its variants. 50 DPI increments are kind of pointless.


----------



## o0Cosmo0o

I think this is the most forward-looking project in the current mouse market. I hope to see this product also on Amazon EU.


----------



## muso

Was really hoping to try the 3389 since all I have is 3360 mice


----------



## ncck

muso said:


> Was really hoping to try the 3389 since all I have is 3360 mice


There's no difference to be honest, I've used all of them and still went back to 3310

3389 has finer dpi increments but um... not sure why you'd really want to tune in steps of 50 but won't complain if people do use it. customization is customization


----------



## 508859

ncck said:


> There's no difference to be honest, I've used all of them and still went back to 3310
> 
> 3389 has finer dpi increments but um... not sure why you'd really want to tune in steps of 50 but won't complain if people do use it. customization is customization


if there is no difference for you between all of them, do you consider the possibility that your opinion is not really valuable?


----------



## James N

ncck said:


> There's no difference to be honest, I've used all of them and still went back to 3310
> 
> 3389 has finer dpi increments but um... not sure why you'd really want to tune in steps of 50 but won't complain if people do use it. customization is customization


I kinda like it, since most game developers still think that sliderbars where one setting is too low and the next higher one is too high are acceptable. With the option to change my cpi in steps of 50 i can at least somewhat tweak my sensitivity to my liking. I swear, game developers nowadays don't play games themselves anymore, so many annoying and dumb decisions are being made.


----------



## nyshak

The 3389 would have been nice, but the difference doesn't justify waiting another 2 months. Not for me at least. Since the mouse was announced with the 3360 in the first place, I think bst made the right call.


----------



## Ukkooh

nyshak said:


> The 3389 would have been nice, but the difference doesn't justify waiting another 2 months. Not for me at least. Since the mouse was announced with the 3360 in the first place, I think bst made the right call.


It wouldn't have made the wait for the first batch longer, only the restocks.


----------



## nyshak

Ukkooh said:


> It wouldn't have made the wait for the first batch longer, only the restocks.


Um, yeah, don't know what to make of this then. 3389 might have been nice, but re-stock might be needed quickly and having two different sensors for the same product probably is a nightmare (firmware updates and whatnot).


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> 3390


wat

any public info on this?
edit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseRevie...r_mamba_elite_has_paw3390_sensor_not_pmw3389/
oh just another 3360 variant


----------



## KGPrime

Anyone have anything to say about the 3360 and the slight delay in response or in small movements you sometimes read or hear about?


----------



## duhizy

KGPrime said:


> Anyone have anything to say about the 3360 and the slight delay in response or in small movements you sometimes read or hear about?


The tests that spawned this meme where based on information everyone already knew. Some of the 3360 variants have smoothing above 2000 dpi, which is the dpi the tester used. The same thing doesn't occur when used at anything lower than that, which, tbf, isn't a sense you should optimally be using for an FPS.


----------



## Avalar

duhizy said:


> The tests that spawned this meme where based on information everyone already knew. Some of the 3360 variants have smoothing above 2000 dpi, which is the dpi the tester used. The same thing doesn't occur when used at anything lower than that, which, tbf, isn't a sense you should optimally be using for an FPS.


I shouldn't use 400 DPI for an FPS? Why not?


----------



## 508859

Avalar said:


> I shouldn't use 400 DPI for an FPS? Why not?


you shouldn't use 2000+


----------



## duhizy

Real gaymers use 16k dpi an 0.0000001 sens kappa #fornitepro


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Where did you get wind of a new Pixart sensor? I can’t find any info on it.


----------



## Klopfer

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Where did you get wind of a new Pixart sensor? I can’t find any info on it.


Maybe ...
https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1712374-mamba-elite-3390-sensor.html#post27700090


----------



## empyr

Hi @bst hope you've had a nice christmas so far.


Curious if you've gotten any news from the Factory on how things are moving? I assume we won't see any major updates till mid-end January?


----------



## gipetto

delete


----------



## Elrick

empyr said:


> Hi @*bst* hope you've had a nice christmas so far.


And also a very Happy New Year.

In regards to BST's new mouse model, looking forward to a possible release this year because we the addicts, deserve finally to be able to purchase your design soon from Max Gaming.


----------



## James N

Elrick said:


> And also a very Happy New Year.
> 
> In regards to BST's new mouse model, looking forward to a possible release this year because we the addicts, deserve finally to be able to purchase your design soon from Max Gaming.


It better not only be on Maxgaming. I would love it to be available on amazon.co.uk and amazon.de. I really dislike ordering from Maxgaming. But yea, can't wait.

Happy new year BST and everyone else.


----------



## empyr

James N said:


> It better not only be on Maxgaming. I would love it to be available on amazon.co.uk and amazon.de. I really dislike ordering from Maxgaming. But yea, can't wait.
> 
> Happy new year BST and everyone else.


iirc, bst said that it's going to be available on Amazon, if that's changed i don't know. It's been a long time since that statement was made.


----------



## omrtpsycho

@bst, kindly check your tickets. Me, as well as another person I know, feel like we would like a refund on the Astrum. The timeline is too long, much longer than initially planned, and I am in need of a new mouse... That is my 2nd ticket, first went unanswered. Thanks! Happy New Year!


----------



## senileoldman

Thank God I ended up buying the new MX518 and the Nixeus and didn't give BST a single cent.

I"ll gladly buy when it comes out on Amazon.


----------



## vanir1337

Nice mentality.


----------



## Avalar

senileoldman said:


> Thank God I ended up buying the new MX518 and the Nixeus and didn't give BST a single cent.
> 
> I"ll gladly buy when it comes out on Amazon.


Imo the improvements made to the mouse are well worth the wait, and much preferable to waiting for a replacement after your Astrum breaks because those fixes weren't made due to the mouse being rushed.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

From some of the pictures, it looks like one of the shapes will be like a Razer Diamondback or Copperhead? Is there anyway to confirm this? At this point, it's kind of the only mouse I want. If not then I will have to just model it for 3D print myself! Should be pretty easy since I know how to model, woo. I would also make it available to everyone.


----------



## DazzaInOz

omrtpsycho said:


> @bst, kindly check your tickets. Me, as well as another person I know, feel like we would like a refund on the Astrum. The timeline is too long, much longer than initially planned, and I am in need of a new mouse... That is my 2nd ticket, first went unanswered. Thanks! Happy New Year!


I think bst mentioned a few posts back (or maybe reddit?) that he can't give refunds as it is a crowdfunded project and the money is already allocated. If he starts giving out refunds to everyone who change their mind he won't have the funds to complete the project at all. I don't know the legal side of this but I knew this could happen going in as it's common with crowdfunds but I'm happy to wait for a better quality product and just to help out a smaller company get a foot hold with a unique product.


----------



## 508859

senileoldman said:


> Thank God I ended up buying the new MX518 and the Nixeus and didn't give BST a single cent.
> 
> I"ll gladly buy when it comes out on Amazon.


thanks god that you came here to give your feedback while not being related to this project in any way. 
let me know once you buy it from amazon.


----------



## senileoldman

numberfive said:


> thanks god that you came here to give your feedback while not being related to this project in any way.
> let me know once you buy it from amazon.


Hey, I've been on this mouse since BST first announced it and gave the idea of different colors for early backers. It's just that I think that this is too much work for a single person and though ahead that it would be delayed to hell.


----------



## James N

Better delayed, than a bad product in the end.


----------



## Menthalion

senileoldman said:


> Hey, I've been on this mouse since BST first announced it and gave the idea of different colors for early backers. It's just that I think that this is too much work for a single person and though ahead that it would be delayed to hell.


So ? It's a kickstarter, man. Everyone that participates understands there's a chance such projects might not even materialize, let alone be on time.

We don't need people 'on this mouse' (for nothing) scaremongering and be glib about waiting to buy it. If everyone would have done that, the mouse would never even had a chance to get to retail.


----------



## bst

I haven't posted in a while, been busy over Christmas, and with the mouse, finishing up all the 'little' things like packaging and so on. Hope everyone had a good one 

I have to be honest, I have let the helpdesk get a bit out of hand while I was working on the project, there are some people who I haven't replied to just because it gets messy, if I don't deal with a ticket straight away it gets marked as read, and it gets lost in the other tickets that are still open. I get a lot of messages about sponsorship, reviews, and spam from companies offering their services. I'm going to be going over it this week and coming up with a way to keep it tidy. I'm really sorry to anyone who's been left out.

This has been a difficult project because its a completely new product, so for one person it is pretty hard. But there is a difference between a delay to improve things vs a delay because of some incompetence, or lack of care, etc. I did have the option of just sending what I originally had to the factory and let them finish it off, and it would most likely have been on time, but this was at the exact time when I finally felt comfortable to do it myself. So I didn't want to use a model made by someone else, and then finished off by another person, because I knew I wouldn't be happy with it, and if I'm not happy, then why should I expect anyone else to be. I want to be in complete control of it because a lot of people don't understand how high the standards are for gaming mice these days, they just can't fully comprehend it.

To be fair, it is mostly difficult because it was my first time making a new shell. There's a lot of things to learn, especially if you want to do it well. At the start of the project I didn't know I'd be remaking the shell myself, it wasn't planned. But now I have, I find it pretty easy - making a mouse like the Astrum pretty much teaches you everything you need to know. I think I could make a simple mouse like a WMO in about a day now, and the PCB in another day, and it would be completely ready for tooling. 

So whether this is a difficult project for one person, just depends on your experience. Doing it just once is enough to learn all of the pitfalls. For example I will never do that many colours again, I'll never outsource shell design again, and I don't have to worry about PCBs and firmware so much anymore because its just adapting it to a new shell. Then there is shipping, using a crowdfund platform and so on, which is another thing to learn the first time around. Once all of that is squared away, its not anywhere near as daunting or challenging.

So while it has been difficult, the way I have done it has been in what I believe to be the best way, given all of the circumstances. What I've tried to ensure is that for this project, the wait will be worth it, and that for future projects, the wait will also be worth it, but it won't be anywhere near as long. So I can't just think about this project when I make decisions, if I didn't remake the mouse myself, then I also wouldn't be able to make the next one myself. So I made some big decisions, but they have good knock on effect for this project and the future.

For those who ask, "why didn't you learn everything you needed before the project started?", I did try, but it takes about a year to get good with CAD, sure I could make the basic surfaces for each mouse, but making them into working shells that fit together properly took much longer to learn. It doesn't seem like its that difficult, but trust me it is, CAD is one of the most infuriatingly unintuative programs ever, and theres a big difference between making something a concept that kind of works, to making something that is actually going to be made.

I didn't really direct all of this at anyone in particular, its kind of in response to a few people's comments, not that I'm having a go at anyone, I just thought some people might find it interesting... and I'm sure some found it boring too (sorry)  I probably wouldn't write something like this on Indiegogo, but I just think its nice to share my thoughts on here where its a bit less formal, so you can understand my decisions and so on a bit better.

Unfortunately I don't have any updates to post yet, so I'm sorry for those who are waiting for one. But the next update should be a big one, unless I decide to make a smaller one just before it, depends if I get anything interesting to show.


----------



## James N

Thank you for elaborating your situation. I can only speak for myself, but i don't mind waiting. It is better than getting an unfinished product that has to go through 2 or more revisions before it is usable.


----------



## gipetto

Don't worry about it. there are other mice any of us could use but they don't fill the niche yours does. On another note, I came across this mouse configurator on 4chan. http://github.com/libratbag/piper I know your software supports linux but this is standardized, and in the repositories, so it won't be abandoned due to software os changes down the line. they are limited in support by reverse engineering each mouse, maybe you could help them to support the astrum.


----------



## Nx87

I know it's far in the future but if the Astrum S ever happens would you consider basing it around the design theme of the Logitech G100s.


----------



## muso

Has all the stuff with the software/firmware been finished already? ie done all the click latency testing etc or is that all still to come?


----------



## abso

Is there any shape of this mouse that will be identical or close to identical to the WMO?


----------



## cdcd

abso said:


> Is there any shape of this mouse that will be identical or close to identical to the WMO?


Beta shape w/o the side buttons is pretty close.


----------



## bst

muso said:


> Has all the stuff with the software/firmware been finished already? ie done all the click latency testing etc or is that all still to come?


I've only tested the latency with the bump test, since I don't have a high speed camera, but its fairly accurate. It was about 10ms faster than the Venator which is hard to believe, but it was consistent. Maybe I can get it to someone with a high speed camera to test it more accurately in future. But it seems very fast, and no problems have shown up in that area.

I'm not going to ship the mouse with the software, because I want to beta test it in a smaller group first, once that's done it will be available for download. I just think its the best way, I can protect the beta testers with their warranty, but I don't want to have 1000's of people with problems that I didn't forsee.

So what comes on the Astrum (just for this first batch, later batches will have the latest FW with software), will be quite similar to the Venator, in that you can change settings by holding the DPI button down and pressing other buttons (slightly different to the Venator where you had to hold down the DPI button for a few seconds to enable "menu mode" and then hold it again to exit). The only main difference will be an extra option where you can change the mouse to right or left handed use.

When the software update comes, you will still be able to change the settings in this way without the software. If you already chose settings in the software that aren't available in the "hardware menu", what happens is that whatever setting you change, eg DPI, will be cleared and start from the beginning. So lets say you have 3800 DPI set in the software, if you change the DPI by using the mouse buttons, it'll just go to 400, and you can work your way through the hardware menu's steps. If you change only the DPI, it won't reset other settings to their initial settings, it'll keep whatever you leave alone, and only change what you want it to. You can also disable this hardware menu if you worry it'll be activated by accident.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> I've only tested the latency with the bump test, since I don't have a high speed camera, but its fairly accurate. It was about 10ms faster than the Venator which is hard to believe, but it was consistent. Maybe I can get it to someone with a high speed camera to test it more accurately in future. But it seems very fast, and no problems have shown up in that area.
> 
> I'm not going to ship the mouse with the software, because I want to beta test it in a smaller group first, once that's done it will be available for download. I just think its the best way, I can protect the beta testers with their warranty, but I don't want to have 1000's of people with problems that I didn't forsee.
> 
> So what comes on the Astrum (just for this first batch, later batches will have the latest FW with software), will be quite similar to the Venator, in that you can change settings by holding the DPI button down and pressing other buttons (slightly different to the Venator where you had to hold down the DPI button for a few seconds to enable "menu mode" and then hold it again to exit). The only main difference will be an extra option where you can change the mouse to right or left handed use.
> 
> When the software update comes, you will still be able to change the settings in this way without the software. If you already chose settings in the software that aren't available in the "hardware menu", what happens is that whatever setting you change, eg DPI, will be cleared and start from the beginning. So lets say you have 3800 DPI set in the software, if you change the DPI by using the mouse buttons, it'll just go to 400, and you can work your way through the hardware menu's steps. If you change only the DPI, it won't reset other settings to their initial settings, it'll keep whatever you leave alone, and only change what you want it to. You can also disable this hardware menu if you worry it'll be activated by accident.


If that's the case with the bump test, wouldn't that put the mouse well before the SS Ikari in the click latency thread? That's incredible!

And I'm all for being a beta tester.  I've got lots of different PCs to test it on, all with different hardware, and on different versions of Windows 7/10.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> Don't worry about it. there are other mice any of us could use but they don't fill the niche yours does. On another note, I came across this mouse configurator on 4chan. http://github.com/libratbag/piper I know your software supports linux but this is standardized, and in the repositories, so it won't be abandoned due to software os changes down the line. they are limited in support by reverse engineering each mouse, maybe you could help them to support the astrum.


Certainly in the future I would help them to support the Astrum. It looks like a cool project, thanks for bringing it to my attention 



Nx87 said:


> I know it's far in the future but if the Astrum S ever happens would you consider basing it around the design theme of the Logitech G100s.


Kind of, the Astrum has that style of shape (the Alpha shape), the Astrum S would have a smaller version - mostly lower and shorter rather than thinner. So fairly similar. I don't like to outright copy shapes, though. Its just a similar style.



Avalar said:


> If that's the case with the bump test, wouldn't that put the mouse well before the SS Ikari in the click latency thread? That's incredible!
> 
> And I'm all for being a beta tester.  I've got lots of different PCs to test it on, all with different hardware, and on different versions of Windows 7/10.


Yeah, it is super fast. The Astrum firmware is based on qsxcv's FW. Its a pretty streamlined FW, I guess that's why its so fast.

I'll put a link up for the beta test when its ready, not sure if loads of people will sign up or not. If a lot of people sign up I'll probably just pick people at random, its easier. I'll probably just post it on here though, to get more enthusiasts in the test, so I guess it'll be fairly easy to get into.


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> I'll put a link up for the beta test when its ready, not sure if loads of people will sign up or not. If a lot of people sign up I'll probably just pick people at random, its easier. I'll probably just post it on here though, to get more enthusiasts in the test, so I guess it'll be fairly easy to get into.


I'd still very much love to participate, and I'm sure I could provide some useful feedback on latencies as well. Hope I'll get lucky.


----------



## empyr

vanir1337 said:


> I'd still very much love to participate, and I'm sure I could provide some useful feedback on latencies as well. Hope I'll get lucky.


I'm crossing my fingers for you getting a spot. You've always provided great detail when it comes to your reviews. Thank you for that.


----------



## Avalar

Is the beta test with the mice we pre-ordered?


----------



## Zakman

How has the tooling been coming along bst?


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@bst since the shell is swappable will the shell of the right and left click be swappable too?


----------



## Klopfer

MentalOutOnline said:


> @bst since the shell is swappable will the shell of the right and left click be swappable too?


u can use sidebuttons on the left , on the right , or on both sides ( except the ergo shape ) , or no sidebuttons


----------



## winz0r

bst said:


> I'll put a link up for the beta test when its ready, not sure if loads of people will sign up or not. If a lot of people sign up I'll probably just pick people at random, its easier. I'll probably just post it on here though, to get more enthusiasts in the test, so I guess it'll be fairly easy to get into.


You can also count me in if you're interested in my input.


----------



## bst

vanir1337 said:


> I'd still very much love to participate, and I'm sure I could provide some useful feedback on latencies as well. Hope I'll get lucky.


A few people who post in this topic often like yourself, I will offer you the software anyway 



Avalar said:


> Is the beta test with the mice we pre-ordered?


The beta test will be just for the software, and I just need 100, or maybe even less people to test it before it goes live. It'll only take a month at most, its just to make sure it works well for everyone before its officially available. I want to keep the test numbers relatively small just in case there is some kind of issue that doesn't show up on mine. Will probably start with 10 people and add more if there are no issues with it. I don't expect it to be very eventful, its pretty simple software really, I'm just deciding to be careful.



Zakman said:


> How has the tooling been coming along bst?


I think its still about 2 weeks away before they're finished, so a little behind schedule, but not too bad. It won't be too much longer now before I have the full working mouse. It'll still need some adjustments, so it won't be completely finished, but it'll only be tiny things that don't take long (like polishing, and closing any gaps/rattles etc).



MentalOutOnline said:


> @bst since the shell is swappable will the shell of the right and left click be swappable too?


If you mean can you swap the left and right click then yes, you just have to enable it and it'll swap everything that was on the left, to the right (also, side buttons will swap over too).


----------



## vanir1337

Cool, glad to hear it! Can't wait.


----------



## raghaf2007

*Question from a cad engineer.*

I wanted to make a base plate which has the sensor a little more forward. And I also wanted to design different side panels. When will you be able to provide the necessary dimensions/templates or cad files?
Keep up the good work bst.


----------



## bst

raghaf2007 said:


> I wanted to make a base plate which has the sensor a little more forward. And I also wanted to design different side panels. When will you be able to provide the necessary dimensions/templates or cad files?
> Keep up the good work bst.


They'll be available when the mouse is released, however it will be difficult to put the sensor further forwards, it already goes as far as it can (the scroll wheel holder is in the way). I'm sure it can be done but it'll take a lot of work for not a huge amount of movement: https://snag.gy/QNLWPK.jpg


----------



## raghaf2007

bst said:


> They'll be available when the mouse is released, however it will be difficult to put the sensor further forwards, it already goes as far as it can (the scroll wheel holder is in the way). I'm sure it can be done but it'll take a lot of work for not a huge amount of movement: https://snag.gy/QNLWPK.jpg


Thanks for the reply. It will be complicated for sure, wanted to make a separate layer support system for the scroll wheel. And make the sensor lil bit towards left. Dunno how viable it will be.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Will the side buttons on the left and right be usable at the same time?


----------



## raghaf2007

*clicks & buttons related query*

what are the switches-type used in the mouse? low operating force ones like 0.74N? or the higher ones? 

i see a pattern where all the "big" companies use separate button releasing tension system(near the mouse left&right buttons' shells). Logitech uses spring tension system. other companies uses simple supports.- may be to ease out the releasing force. --- this is something you should look forward in to ur next mouse.


----------



## bst

0mega1Spawn said:


> Will the side buttons on the left and right be usable at the same time?


Yes.



raghaf2007 said:


> what are the switches-type used in the mouse? low operating force ones like 0.74N? or the higher ones?


They are LK optical switches and their operating force is 60+-10gf, in use the OF feels quite similar to Omron D2FCs. 



raghaf2007 said:


> i see a pattern where all the "big" companies use separate button releasing tension system(near the mouse left&right buttons' shells). Logitech uses spring tension system. other companies uses simple supports.- may be to ease out the releasing force. --- this is something you should look forward in to ur next mouse.


I'm not sure what you mean by the supports, if you have a picture of it I'd like to see  

There are supports which push down on the switch casing, which is mostly to keep everything held in place for more consistency. There are also little protrusions which stop the button moving beyond what is necessary. So it can't bounce too far up, and also it can't press too far down. By stopping it from overtravelling too far, also helps the release force to be stronger, since it loses some of it once its pressed down too far (and it also helps prolong the life of the switch). Also there is a limit on how far the button can move/bend left or right.

Theres not much more that can be done as far as I know. The only other thing you can do is use springs like Logitech, which I'm not sure about, they are nice in some ways, maybe a bit annoying in others (OF and RF), and its hard to get it right (when they first came out, a lot of people were commenting on how sensitive the buttons were).


----------



## raghaf2007

I'm using g303 which have the spring system from Logitech. I used other mouse with same omrons, but, none of them are as good as the g303's. By good I mean very little of and rf- which I prefer.

Yeah, for some people they feel sensitive.


----------



## duhizy

Is the mainstream release still estimated for Q1 2019, or have there been some delays?


----------



## Ukkooh

bst said:


> Theres 3 options with the sides:


So what option did you end up with? Did you keep the sides straight or did you go with the small angle?


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> They are LK optical switches and their operating force is 60+-10gf, in use the OF feels quite similar to Omron D2FCs.


So EXCITED about trying out these new switches used by BST here.


PLEASE make sure your gear is available for 2019 and not 2021 :cigar: .


----------



## lurkerguy

Looking forward to try out the switches too since I never tried optical before.
@bst can you post here when you know the shipping date? Don't know yet if I need to change the address.


----------



## empyr

@bst I assume the tooling has finished, do you have any more cool pictures to share?


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> So what option did you end up with? Did you keep the sides straight or did you go with the small angle?


The factory said its ok to go with the straight sides, there will be a small line but once its painted it'll be hardly visible.

I might just make these smaller mice one mouse each though, and let people vote on what they want first. It just makes the whole process (like tooling) more streamlined and faster.


lurkerguy said:


> @bst can you post here when you know the shipping date? Don't know yet if I need to change the address.


I will post here and on Indiegogo when I know it.



empyr said:


> @bst I assume the tooling has finished, do you have any more cool pictures to share?


They are still working on the tooling, but its nearly done. I'll try and get a photo tonight. Its a little behind schedule but not too bad, everything is lined up and ready to go as soon as its finished.


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> They are still working on the tooling, but its nearly done. I'll try and get a photo tonight. Its a little behind schedule but not too bad, everything is lined up and ready to go as soon as its finished.


Alright


----------



## bst

I couldn't get a photo of the mouse yet, but here are some photos of the molds, which is quite interesting if you haven't seen mouse molds before. Also at least you can see they are very close to being finished


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> I couldn't get a photo of the mouse yet, but here are some photos of the molds, which is quite interesting if you haven't seen mouse molds before. Also at least you can see they are very close to being finished


It does look hella cool!


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> I couldn't get a photo of the mouse yet, but here are some photos of the molds, which is quite interesting if you haven't seen mouse molds before. Also at least you can see they are very close to being finished


Very cool indeed. Thank you!


----------



## Rhys7

is the beta EI and EX shell still getting made? and it is straight forward to get 3d printing done? if the shape isnt big enough...when will release be? can i preorder it now? thanks


----------



## Marctraider

What are the expected dimensions on the mouse? I'm looking for a G100S replacement with straight sides.

Thanks!


----------



## Ukkooh

Rhys7 said:


> is the beta EI and EX shell still getting made? and it is straight forward to get 3d printing done? if the shape isnt big enough...when will release be? can i preorder it now? thanks


AFAIK the ergo shapes are still included. You can preorder it from the indiegogo page.



Marctraider said:


> What are the expected dimensions on the mouse?


Shape 1 (Alpha): 133 (L) x 58 (W) x 39.6 (H) mm
Shape 2 (Beta): 133 (L) x 67.5 (W) x 39.6 (H) mm
Shape 3 (Beta IE): 133 (L) x 70 (W) x 39.6 (H) mm


----------



## Rhys7

which coating did you guys go for? not sure which colour or coating to go for...:/


----------



## gipetto

@Rhys7 the cheapest one lol.


----------



## empyr

Rhys7 said:


> which coating did you guys go for? not sure which colour or coating to go for...:/


All of them of course, silly! _Well... apart from the White & Black _


----------



## Rhys7

gipetto said:


> @Rhys7 the cheapest one lol.


my other half wont let me order it untill my ebay sells 

anyone want to buy dm1 fps? opened unused aha


----------



## t3ram

Rhys7 said:


> which coating did you guys go for? :/


matte blue
i would have gone for two more but sadly didnt have enoug money at that time


----------



## Avalar

Rhys7 said:


> which coating did you guys go for? not sure which colour or coating to go for...:/


Every last one. So hyped!

I'm considering getting a spare of another color so I can have a full brand-new set.


----------



## bst

You can get some idea of the colours from cars, since they are colour matched with car colours:
Matte Black = Not from a car, its quite a rare colour, matte black with metallic flecks in.
Matte White = Audi Glacier White
Matte Blue = Audi Ara Blue
Matte Red = Alfa Romeo Competition Red
Matte Green =Rover Tara Green
Grey Rubber = Audi Nardo Grey
Glossy Purple = Not from a car
Black Knight = Not from a car

This is to make it a little easier if you want to paint 3D printed parts. Although the best thing to do would be to go to a paint shop with the mouse and get them to colour match a spray can for you. But if you can't be bothered to do that then you can buy most colours from ebay (eg: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352067616383 ). If you have a Black Knight you'd have to go to an electroplating or chrome spray shop. Probably the hardest one to match would be the rubber one, I don't know where you can get that one done.

Personally if I were choosing a coating, I'd go with matte, I find it gives the most consistent grip, at least for me. If your hands get sweaty then the glossy ones might be better. Rubber is a bit like matte, but I would avoid it if you have sweaty hands, since it can cause it to wear faster. Colour wise I'd just choose black because I'm boring like that. But all the colours are nice IMO, I spent a lot of time deciding on them


----------



## aCz-

Looks like im going with Audi somehow...


----------



## bst

Basically I found after a few attempts that its too difficult to tell the factory what you want (especially when you want it 'just right'), but if you just send them something they can match it pretty much perfectly. So I knew Audi had a nice blue, and thought I might as well use their white and grey as well 

Here's a video the factory sent me of some of the colours:


----------



## ryan92084

That gray kind of makes me regret not going for the upgraded tier... always hard to trust rubber coatings though.


----------



## empyr

The Blue looks SO good!


----------



## Rhys7

you guys reckon the large left handed setup will be any good? excited as fook to try it...coming from an fk1+ thats too flat and forces me to fingertip grip...21.5 by 11.5 never ever used a mouse thats ergo other than DA left hand but that was a bit small and crappy sensor LOD problem...i know this mouse is quite narrow at the topp but with a bit of overgrip down the side of thumb rest and adjustable sensor i should be good i hope...its far better than whats available to me now being left handed..FINALLY I HAVE HOPE...just wish it was sooner


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Basically I found after a few attempts that its too difficult to tell the factory what you want (especially when you want it 'just right'), but if you just send them something they can match it pretty much perfectly. So I knew Audi had a nice blue, and thought I might as well use their white and grey as well


Would love to pick up a Green model for once. Also the Blue one shall be added to my collection.

Already have tonnes of Grey and White coloured mice hence go for the non-standard colours that almost no other manufacturer uses. It will put you ahead of the common herd in input devices.

We all need to know when this baby will show up on MaxGaming webstore, that alone will sell faster than any of FM's product line and rightly so.


----------



## bst

Rhys7 said:


> you guys reckon the large left handed setup will be any good? excited as fook to try it...coming from an fk1+ thats too flat and forces me to fingertip grip...21.5 by 11.5 never ever used a mouse thats ergo other than DA left hand but that was a bit small and crappy sensor LOD problem...i know this mouse is quite narrow at the topp but with a bit of overgrip down the side of thumb rest and adjustable sensor i should be good i hope...its far better than whats available to me now being left handed..FINALLY I HAVE HOPE...just wish it was sooner


If you have a WMO, just imagine it with longer buttons at the front, and a rest (bulge) on the left. That's pretty much what it is. Its not really like an FK, its a bit fuller (taller) in the rear.



Elrick said:


> Would love to pick up a Green model for once. Also the Blue one shall be added to my collection.
> 
> Already have tonnes of Grey and White coloured mice hence go for the non-standard colours that almost no other manufacturer uses. It will put you ahead of the common herd in input devices.
> 
> We all need to know when this baby will show up on MaxGaming webstore, that alone will sell faster than any of FM's product line and rightly so.


I think the green is really nice, the factory is disappointed though because I only sold about 50, they don't like that. They wanted me to order more, but I have no use for them, since they're exclusive. So next time I won't do so many colours.

I know different colours can stand out more, but at the same time I don't want to put people off with too much weirdness. A lot of people just want a black one, I think?

I doubt the Astrum will sell like FM's mice, it has almost zero marketing behind it. I admit I'm not very good at that.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

in the future will we be able to buy it on Amazon? cuz i want to wait for the reviews before buying one


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I know different colours can stand out more, but at the same time I don't want to put people off with too much weirdness. A lot of people just want a black one, I think?


I like you a lot because you never pull any punches and you let us know up front what to expect, maybe that will be your downfall when dealing in business and marketing.

For now you have a fan who won't abandon you regardless of what you produce and provide. Although that Henry Ford sickness of providing every colour as long as it's in BLACK belongs in the 20th century. This is the 21st era in which we all reside, so please start engaging with COLOUR instead of pandering to some fantasy set up by some long dead tyrant of manufacturing.



bst said:


> I doubt the Astrum will sell like FM's mice, it has almost zero marketing behind it. I admit I'm not very good at that.



Geez, you need to lighten up here. Your gear and I mean all of it, is of Higher Quality than that expensive FM refuse that came out of someone's diseased sphincter. The only thing you need to copy off them, is the COLOURS they provided.

They didn't use only Black, they provided other colours in their last available range of mice. So get with the program BST and give us some variety in colours here because as God is my witness, I shall never again buy another all Black Coloured mouse.


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> I like you a lot because you never pull any punches and you let us know up front what to expect, maybe that will be your downfall when dealing in business and marketing.
> 
> For now you have a fan who won't abandon you regardless of what you produce and provide. Although that Henry Ford sickness of providing every colour as long as it's in BLACK belongs in the 20th century. This is the 21st era in which we all reside, so please start engaging with COLOUR instead of pandering to some fantasy set up by some long dead tyrant of manufacturing.


Its easier said than done, the factory always wants at least 1000 mice per colour, they agreed with the Astrum to do a few colours on one order, but even though they agreed to do it, they still complain about it.

So unless I have the funds to order loads of mice, it is safer to stick with the safer colours, I mean yes I could go and make them in pink and teal, but to me its a risk. Companies like Zowie and FM can order them and they have fans who will buy them no matter what (and influential people using their products, who have their own fans), but I don't have that, at least not to the same degree which makes it safe.

If I were selling more then of course I would add more colours, but I don't believe that is a big problem at the moment, like if I change black and white to red and blue, I wouldn't expect to sell any more, actually I would expect to sell less.



Elrick said:


> Geez, you need to lighten up here. Your gear and I mean all of it, is of Higher Quality than that expensive FM refuse that came out of someone's diseased sphincter. The only thing you need to copy off them, is the COLOURS they provided.
> 
> They didn't use only Black, they provided other colours in their last available range of mice. So get with the program BST and give us some variety in colours here because as God is my witness, I shall never again buy another all Black Coloured mouse.


They probably would have sold them just as well if they were hearing aid beige and poo brown. But they would have called them "Retro Zeal" and "Chocolate Brownie" or something, and their fans would be like, "ohh they are so smart, I didn't know I liked this colour until now".

The (sad) fact is a lot of people are like sheep, and they move in large groups. They don't tend to leave those groups from a difference in opinion, instead, they allow it to change their opinion. Its not a colour or a style or whatever that people like, its belonging to a club and feeling "safe", and "not left out". Of course, a good enough product is necessary, as a foundation, but it only accounts for a tiny reason for sales on its own. 

You can't behave that way as a small business, because there's not enough of a following to have that effect. There is no club/group. If you innovate, you need to make it a logical/technical innovation, you can't force a trend onto such a small amount of customers and expect it to stick. Not unless you have some kind of OTHER way of attracting people to it. 

Lets just say for example I make a mouse in luminous yellow, most people wouldn't want it. It'd clash with their setup. However, if I had enough of a following to sell a few thousand (to the "fan" customers), people would start seeing them around (and used by "cool" people) and be influenced by it and start desiring them. It'd also help them being luminous yellow, because it'd be the only one, and so every time someone saw that colour on a mouse mat, they'd know what it was, making it like its own advertisement. So what is the final nail in the coffin for a small company can be the great idea for a large company. There is actually a small company out there that tried to do something like this, and a lot of people were laughing at them. If they had been bigger, they probably would have set a trend.

Its a really common problem in business, you can't sell a lot because you haven't sold a lot. The only way to simulate this effect is to make deals with influential people, which is obviously what FM has done from the beginning. So if I were to copy anything about them, it'd be that.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> They probably would have sold them just as well if they were hearing aid beige and poo brown. But they would have called them "Retro Zeal" and "Chocolate Brownie" or something, and their fans would be like, "ohh they are so smart, I didn't know I liked this colour until now".


My overall hatred of people in general seems to be proven correct in this instance. The BIGGER you are the more you could get away with murder.



bst said:


> The (sad) fact is a lot of people are like sheep, and they move in large groups. They don't tend to leave those groups from a difference in opinion, instead, they allow it to change their opinion. Its not a colour or a style or whatever that people like, its belonging to a club and feeling "safe", and "not left out". Of course, a good enough product is necessary, as a foundation, but it only accounts for a tiny reason for sales on its own.


No argument worth pursuing here at all, you are indeed CORRECT.



bst said:


> You can't behave that way as a small business, because there's not enough of a following to have that effect. There is no club/group. If you innovate, you need to make it a logical/technical innovation, you can't force a trend onto such a small amount of customers and expect it to stick. Not unless you have some kind of OTHER way of attracting people to it.


Maybe I am being a little bit naive here but isn't this area of OCN yours to claim? People who care are here posting and bothering to promote your gear above Logitech, Razer and dare I say it Final Mouse as well?

It means you actually do have a serious following. That can't be ignored hence there is interest although maybe not as grand as Logitech's but maybe that is the area that belongs to you. Would hate to see you selling off your designs to Razer or Logitech to claim as their own. Then watch true innovation disappear forever. 



bst said:


> Its a really common problem in business, you can't sell a lot because you haven't sold a lot. The only way to simulate this effect is to make deals with influential people, which is obviously what FM has done from the beginning. So if I were to copy anything about them, it'd be that.


I'm always afraid that you would indeed walk away, since your gear is truly for the Gamer with unique features bundled into the low price that is ALWAYS being asked. In the end, I'm afraid most here will go with the BIG guys simply due to their immense presence in the Market place. As much as I would like to deny this fundamental fact it can never be ignored and over time you may have already come to that conclusion yourself.

Regardless of the up coming Colour, I shall indeed buy a few of your would be "all Black" models. Not because I like the colour but I know this maybe your last honest attempt, to deliver a REAL gaming mouse for the ungrateful masses, whom seem oblivious to your work. You are the only one that walks the walk here on this forum, just hoping that you will continue to be with us here and not be depressed at what you failed to achieve.

Some individuals will go through their whole lives and do nothing at all in the World of Gaming, I will at least have under my roof some brilliant examples of mouse designs, perfectly completed at that moment in time. Like a freeze-frame on how great it was and I've even put in ANOTHER 'Venator' order through, for one of my ankle-biters. They appreciate your designs far above Logitech's and Razer's expensive gear simply because it works. The shape, the switches, scroll wheel and sensor have combined to not only make it be wanted but intensely worshiped by some youngsters.


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> My overall hatred of people in general seems to be proven correct in this instance. The BIGGER you are the more you could get away with murder.


I don't like it, but I don't hate people for it. Its just nature, its not really anyone's fault.



Elrick said:


> Maybe I am being a little bit naive here but isn't this area of OCN yours to claim? People who care are here posting and bothering to promote your gear above Logitech, Razer and dare I say it Final Mouse as well?
> 
> It means you actually do have a serious following. That can't be ignored hence there is interest although maybe not as grand as Logitech's but maybe that is the area that belongs to you. Would hate to see you selling off your designs to Razer or Logitech to claim as their own. Then watch true innovation disappear forever.


Maybe, but in the context of risking some funky colour, its a different kind of group. People here don't follow each other so much, they're more into function rather than form, fashions and trends. People here won't buy my mice regardless, or let too much slide. So when I say a following, I mean a large (1000x OCN size) who are just obsessed, kind of like how loads of people obsess over Apple.

I do appreciate people here, and I know there are those who buy my products even if it might not be perfect for them, just because they want to support me. It really does help, I probably would have had to give up without them. But what I was talking about was being able to take risks, and while OCN might keep me alive, it doesn't allow me to take risks, or really expand, unfortunately. I wish it did 



Elrick said:


> I'm always afraid that you would indeed walk away, since your gear is truly for the Gamer with unique features bundled into the low price that is ALWAYS being asked. In the end, I'm afraid most here will go with the BIG guys simply due to their immense presence in the Market place. As much as I would like to deny this fundamental fact it can never be ignored and over time you may have already come to that conclusion yourself.


I like what I do, so maybe if I was just in it trying to get rich, I would have walked away by now. But I enjoy it, so that won't happen unless I'm forced to.



Elrick said:


> Regardless of the up coming Colour, I shall indeed buy a few of your would be "all Black" models. Not because I like the colour but I know this maybe your last honest attempt, to deliver a REAL gaming mouse for the ungrateful masses, whom seem oblivious to your work. You are the only one that walks the walk here on this forum, just hoping that you will continue to be with us here and not be depressed at what you failed to achieve.


I appreciate that, thanks Elrick 
Its not my last attempt, even if for some reason the Astrum doesn't do well once its released, I'm still going to keep going, at least for this year. 



Elrick said:


> Some individuals will go through their whole lives and do nothing at all in the World of Gaming, I will at least have under my roof some brilliant examples of mouse designs, perfectly completed at that moment in time. Like a freeze-frame on how great it was and I've even put in ANOTHER 'Venator' order through, for one of my ankle-biters. They appreciate your designs far above Logitech's and Razer's expensive gear simply because it works. The shape, the switches, scroll wheel and sensor have combined to not only make it be wanted but intensely worshiped by some youngsters.


That's nice to hear, I'm glad 

Some people might not read until this far, but I should say I have changed my mind again about the Astrum S. I think I should just make it one mouse (different name of course). I just want to keep it simple on the next one. Although it might be wireless, I like the idea of a super light wireless mouse, I'm going to try it anyway, and how the prototype goes.


----------



## Avalar

Just curious, about how much of each color has sold so far?

And the colors look freakin sick btw.


----------



## Elrick

Avalar said:


> Just curious, about how much of each color has sold so far?
> 
> And the colors look freakin sick btw.



Agreed, the colours are indeed superb :thumb:.


----------



## empyr

Hey @*bst* , regarding the mouse feet, I assume the design is final and all, but: Maybe you should get hold of Klopfer and get in contact with Corepad?


----------



## 508859

just wanted to say how I appreciate bst for managing this project to satisfy the picky community
sincerely hope that it will not fail financially and it will give you motivation to stay in the field and do more


----------



## Avalar

empyr said:


> Hey @*bst* , regarding the mouse feet, I assume the design is final and all, but: Maybe you should get hold of Klopfer and get in contact with Corepad?


Dooood, that would be awesome.


----------



## Klopfer

I guess Corepad would produce a small series of skatez for the Astrum ...


----------



## joelsund

Hey, just wondering how the click force compares to other mice currently out there. would you consider it heavy or light?
I also think it could be a really good idea to reach out to some streamers to see if they're interested in checking out the mouse, as they can be extremely influential in promoting a product by just having them use it once.


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> Hey @*bst* , regarding the mouse feet, I assume the design is final and all, but: Maybe you should get hold of Klopfer and get in contact with Corepad?


I will contact them about it, I just want to make sure the factory fitted feet are working well first. You never know, they might be a bit too big or a bit too small, I just don't want to give corepad the measurements until I know its definitely ok for them to go ahead with it.



joelsund said:


> Hey, just wondering how the click force compares to other mice currently out there. would you consider it heavy or light?
> I also think it could be a really good idea to reach out to some streamers to see if they're interested in checking out the mouse, as they can be extremely influential in promoting a product by just having them use it once.


I'd say they are a bit less than "medium". If I swap the switches to Omron D2FC, they feel (and sound) similar. I think they're nice, not so light that you get accidental clicks, but not too heavy and noisy that they're annoying/tiring.

I did email quite a few streamers before the crowd fund, but got no replies, I think they don't like getting involved with crowd funds because it probably hurts their image if there are problems. So I'll try again soon


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> I will contact them about it, I just want to make sure the factory fitted feet are working well first. You never know, they might be a bit too big or a bit too small, I just don't want to give corepad the measurements until I know its definitely ok for them to go ahead with it.


:thumb:


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I'd say they are a bit less than "medium". If I swap the switches to Omron D2FC, they feel (and sound) similar. I think they're nice, not so light that you get accidental clicks, but not too heavy and noisy that they're annoying/tiring.


NO, the heavy switches aren't annoying because it keeps you ALIVE in any Gaming situation.

If anyone is stuck with switches that are 'limp' and 'weak', trust me a head shot is coming for them sooner than you think :sniper: .


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Elrick said:


> NO, the heavy switches aren't annoying because it keeps you ALIVE in any Gaming situation.
> 
> If anyone is stuck with switches that are 'limp' and 'weak', trust me a head shot is coming for them sooner than you think :sniper: .


:thinking:

Lighter switches would be easier to click. Therefore easier and faster to click. Therefore "keeps you ALIVE in any Gaming situation".


----------



## Avalar

0mega1Spawn said:


> :thinking:
> 
> Lighter switches would be easier to click. Therefore easier and faster to click. Therefore "keeps you ALIVE in any Gaming situation".


The lighter the better imo. I wish another mouse had buttons like the G303... ;-;


----------



## James N

Avalar said:


> The lighter the better imo. I wish another mouse had buttons like the G303... ;-;


True, the g303 and g403 have the best buttons ever.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@bst will we be able to swap the trigger buttons shell? cuz i want different curves for the trigger buttons when 3d printed


----------



## bst

MentalOutOnline said:


> @bst will we be able to swap the trigger buttons shell? cuz i want different curves for the trigger buttons when 3d printed


Depends what you mean by curves, the front buttons are the hardest thing to change, because they're in tight relation with the inner shell. Also its not easy to make them feel good (when clicking) with 3D printing, because they depend so much on precision. So changing the front buttons would usually involve changing the inner shell in some way (either by 3d printing a new one or dremelling the original). Its not impossible, its just on another level to making new sides and top cover.


----------



## Zakman

@bst When can we expect tooling to be finished? I wanna play Diabotical when it releases in March with that sweet rubber coated Astrum


----------



## Faleene

Do we know any rough dimensions of the Astrum S? Astrum dimensions look good but it's very long


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> @bst When can we expect tooling to be finished? I wanna play Diabotical when it releases in March with that sweet rubber coated Astrum


I know that its almost finished, but I'm not sure exactly when it will be, I'll ask them again when the Chinese new year holiday is over (that's 9 days away ).



Faleene said:


> Do we know any rough dimensions of the Astrum S? Astrum dimensions look good but it's very long


If you like the width and height of the Astrum, I wouldn't worry about the length too much, its just button overhang, you can think of it as being 1cm shorter than it is (123mm).

I'm still a bit unsure about the Astrum S. I think I have a better idea, which I'm going to be testing soon. I think its more in line with what people want. I can put this idea into the Astrum S but it will make it an expensive mouse, so I think maybe single mice which are less expensive is better.

But anyway it doesn't change the shape, they'll be small, sort of kinzu/g100s size.


----------



## empyr

Hey @*bst* - I know this must be getting annoying at some point with the constant questions left and right, but:

#1 Cable: Any news on that? Like will you be able to get the same type as the DM1 FPS / "Phantom" Cord - Or are you still waiting for it to move along in the process?
#2 Cable Color(s): I assume the color matching with the mouse is not going to happen, unless you've not started that whole thing yet? (related to #1).
#3 Weight: What's your estimate on the weight with the changes you've made? I imagine it will be more like 80-85 now?


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> Hey @*bst* - I know this must be getting annoying at some point with the constant questions left and right, but:
> 
> #1 Cable: Any news on that? Like will you be able to get the same type as the DM1 FPS / "Phantom" Cord - Or are you still waiting for it to move along in the process?
> #2 Cable Color(s): I assume the color matching with the mouse is not going to happen, unless you've not started that whole thing yet? (related to #1).
> #3 Weight: What's your estimate on the weight with the changes you've made? I imagine it will be more like 80-85 now?


1- Yeah, it probably will be the same type, its not confirmed 100% yet, but the cable itself is easy to get. It just depends on the certifications. But everyone else seems to be passing them, so I don't think its a big problem. My PCB engineer also doesn't think it will be any problem. But I still don't like to say 100% until its done 

2- No, I won't do colour coded cables, I could maybe beg the factory to do it, but it'll annoy them, and its just something that could delay things. I'll just leave it black since it works with all the colours. The other option is black with a subtle white pattern, but I'm not sure people will like it.

One other thing I can do with the cables is use paracord instead of the braided material. It'll be a bit smoother then.

3. From what I've calculated they're still all under 80g, I changed all the wires (except USB) to flat ribbon cables which are a lot lighter. Its about 77g for Alpha and 78g for Beta and 78.5g for Gamma. If you take out the USB cable like some companies are doing now to get their weights, its 75/76/76.5g.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I know that its almost finished, but I'm not sure exactly when it will be, I'll ask them again when the Chinese new year holiday is over (that's 9 days away ).
> 
> But anyway it doesn't change the shape, they'll be small, sort of kinzu/g100s size.


Happens every year but the rest of the time they go full hog at making everything, without stopping.

The 'Kinzu/G100S' sized mouse would indeed be prudent because there is nothing out there that competes with that shape alone.

DM3 failed BIG time and the G100S shape just fell away from Logitech's interest, just like the G9, G3 and mx300 series. Extremely smart to supply those shapes again, maybe not the G9 but the others could in fact garner even more interest from the kids these days.

Hence you could sell more of them, once the talk and promotion happens :thumb: .


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> 2- No, I won't do colour coded cables, I could maybe beg the factory to do it, but it'll annoy them, and its just something that could delay things. I'll just leave it black since it works with all the colours. The other option is black with a subtle white pattern, but I'm not sure people will like it.


 YOU keep mentioning these so-called PEOPLE, who are they? Which MORON would not want a different coloured cable with their mouse model? 

You're designing it for US and we are no ignorant plebs or naive when it comes to buying our gear. We want something, we hand over the money so please mention these people who would run away from this?



bst said:


> One other thing I can do with the cables is use paracord instead of the braided material. It'll be a bit smoother then.


That's what EVERYONE wants here on OCN, no problem there.



bst said:


> 3. From what I've calculated they're still all under 80g, I changed all the wires (except USB) to flat ribbon cables which are a lot lighter. Its about 77g for Alpha and 78g for Beta and 78.5g for Gamma. If you take out the USB cable like some companies are doing now to get their weights, its 75/76/76.5g.


You still need the cable, don't go down that rabbit-hole of misery. Logitech can do that due to their monumental budget but you can not.

Nothing worse than designing and building something that FAILS when the usb cable is removed and replaced several times. Then no one will buy it when the complaints start rolling in.

Be smart, stick to the essentials.

Nice shape, good colour, perfect switches, ALPS scroller (my ongoing wish) and a decent cable that doesn't look or feel like floppy pyjamas.


----------



## lurkerguy

Elrick said:


> YOU keep mentioning these so-called PEOPLE, who are they? Which MORON would not want a different coloured cable with their mouse model?
> 
> You're designing it for US and we are no ignorant plebs or naive when it comes to buying our gear. We want something, we hand over the money so please mention these people who would run away from this?


This moron right here. Black cords look the best even on colored models and if you really have to make your mouse look like trash with colored cables that makes it automatically look out of place in your desk, then you might as well mod it with paracord yourself.


Elrick said:


> You still need the cable, don't go down that rabbit-hole of misery. Logitech can do that due to their monumental budget but you can not.
> 
> Nothing worse than designing and building something that FAILS when the usb cable is removed and replaced several times. Then no one will buy it when the complaints start rolling in.


I don't even know what you are talking about anymore. bst is not thinking about making a wireless mouse but simply stated the weight of the mouse with cable removed which seems to be the trend between mouse manufacturers to do now to lie to their customers about the real weight of the mouse. For example Finalmouse's newest mouse is called Air 58 and it literally has it printed on the mouse surface and it weights 62 grams.


----------



## Elrick

lurkerguy said:


> This moron right here. Black cords look the best even on colored models and if you really have to make your mouse look like trash with colored cables that makes it automatically look out of place in your desk, then you might as well mod it with paracord yourself.


All Colours are welcomed at my place 24/7.



lurkerguy said:


> I don't even know what you are talking about anymore. bst is not thinking about making a wireless mouse but simply stated the weight of the mouse with cable removed which seems to be the trend between mouse manufacturers to do now to lie to their customers about the real weight of the mouse. For example Finalmouse's newest mouse is called Air 58 and it literally has it printed on the mouse surface and it weights 62 grams.


Thought it was all about making it wireless, as some comments had gone that way. Sorry BST.

Do not try and measure down to Final Mouse level, it's just too low. For testing ONLY, then BST can put what he like's on the mouse casing, specifying whatever he wants to. Smart people don't fall for that level of mediocrity.

In the end it's all about how it feels in a person's hand regardless of the Colours, Printed Junk or other lame efforts to justify it's existence. Us here, only want a mouse that delivers on Quality and Longevity.


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> YOU keep mentioning these so-called PEOPLE, who are they? Which MORON would not want a different coloured cable with their mouse model?
> 
> You're designing it for US and we are no ignorant plebs or naive when it comes to buying our gear. We want something, we hand over the money so please mention these people who would run away from this?


I mean people in general. I was talking about a black and white patterned cable vs a black cable, I think the black cable would be preferred by more people.



Elrick said:


> You still need the cable, don't go down that rabbit-hole of misery. Logitech can do that due to their monumental budget but you can not.
> 
> Nothing worse than designing and building something that FAILS when the usb cable is removed and replaced several times. Then no one will buy it when the complaints start rolling in.
> 
> Be smart, stick to the essentials.
> 
> Nice shape, good colour, perfect switches, ALPS scroller (my ongoing wish) and a decent cable that doesn't look or feel like floppy pyjamas.


I was talking about how some companies weigh their mouse without the USB cable to make it seem lighter than it really is, but I don't think wireless is that difficult. The idea I've had is to do with wireless and it would solve the disconnection issues with the cable  But I do know what you mean, which is why I wouldn't release a wireless mouse unless I was 100% sure it was going to be good.


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> 1- Yeah, it probably will be the same type, its not confirmed 100% yet, but the cable itself is easy to get. It just depends on the certifications. But everyone else seems to be passing them, so I don't think its a big problem. My PCB engineer also doesn't think it will be any problem. But I still don't like to say 100% until its done
> 
> 2- No, I won't do colour coded cables, I could maybe beg the factory to do it, but it'll annoy them, and its just something that could delay things. I'll just leave it black since it works with all the colours. The other option is black with a subtle white pattern, but I'm not sure people will like it.
> 
> One other thing I can do with the cables is use paracord instead of the braided material. It'll be a bit smoother then.
> 
> 3. From what I've calculated they're still all under 80g, I changed all the wires (except USB) to flat ribbon cables which are a lot lighter. Its about 77g for Alpha and 78g for Beta and 78.5g for Gamma. If you take out the USB cable like some companies are doing now to get their weights, its 75/76/76.5g.


Yeah, I understand, nothing is final till it's done. Pure black is fine, was mostly just a thing to make it really unique, but yeah, people can always paracord it themselves later i suppose if they want to color match / get patterns.

That's really impressive though, I thought for sure you'd break the 80g mark with the updated structure and things. Awesome to hear! 

Thank you for the insight and thank you for all your hard work so far!


----------



## skTear

aa


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@skTear it doesnt matter if the sensor is the pmw3360 its still a top sensor


----------



## Elrick

MentalOutOnline said:


> @*skTear* it doesnt matter if the sensor is the pmw3360 its still a top sensor


Agreed.

If the next model being offered is a 3360, still a decent sensor well worth acquiring without delay.


----------



## vanir1337

skTear said:


> A delayed Ninox Astrum eventually has 3389, but a rushed Ninox Astrum forever has 3360.  https://youtu.be/swmL1CVHg4I


I'd pick a 3360 over a 3389 any time.


----------



## ryan92084

skTear said:


> A delayed Ninox Astrum eventually has 3389, but a rushed Ninox Astrum forever has 3360.  https://youtu.be/swmL1CVHg4I


Nice setup too bad the 3389 isn't tested and the sample size is so small. Channel seems dead too : /


----------



## tosteck

I'm wondering if the Astrum will be available on Amazon


----------



## bst

tosteck said:


> I'm wondering if the Astrum will be available on Amazon


It will be on Amazon, UK/EU/US.


----------



## winz0r

Do you have a new ETA? The last one you gave us was 7th of Feb if I recall correctly but according to your posts I'm assuming it won't ship on this date.


----------



## Klopfer

winz0r said:


> Do you have a new ETA? The last one you gave us was 7th of Feb if I recall correctly but according to your posts I'm assuming it won't ship on this date.


last I saw/remember was manufacturing&QC ~20th February , shipping complete mid March ...


----------



## winz0r

Klopfer said:


> last I saw/remember was manufacturing&QC ~20th February , shipping complete mid March ...


Thanks!


----------



## empyr

Based on bst's previous posts, I would assume the current estimate would be late March/early April.


----------



## Klopfer

bst said:


> I will contact them about it, I just want to make sure the factory fitted feet are working well first. You never know, they might be a bit too big or a bit too small, I just don't want to give corepad the measurements until I know its definitely ok for them to go ahead with it.


corepad wrote me that they will do skatez if they get an example/dimension of the skatez ... 
so pls get in contact with them when you have the final dimensions ...


----------



## gildojuvvon

bst said:


> It will be on Amazon, UK/EU/US.


 @bst

Derailing the conversation but;
I tried reach you from the Ninox support system in january but my ticket wasnt getting responded.
Could my Ninox Astrum unit be cancelled from backing i did on the first day of your Indiegogo page opening. 
Im currently not looking for any more mice.

Thanks!


----------



## e7zip

gildojuvvon said:


> @bst
> 
> Derailing the conversation but;
> I tried reach you from the Ninox support system in january but my ticket wasnt getting responded.
> Could my Ninox Astrum unit be cancelled from backing i did on the first day of your Indiegogo page opening.
> Im currently not looking for any more mice.
> 
> Thanks!



same here, no answer at all, and this delay is kinda disrespectful imo.


----------



## Avalar

gildojuvvon said:


> @bst
> 
> Derailing the conversation but;
> I tried reach you from the Ninox support system in january but my ticket wasnt getting responded.
> Could my Ninox Astrum unit be cancelled from backing i did on the first day of your Indiegogo page opening.
> Im currently not looking for any more mice.
> 
> Thanks!


IIRC, he said that money can't be refunded partly because it's already been spent, but also because then others might ask for a refund as well, putting us short of the goal of getting the mouse shipped.

Anyway, depending on which Astrum you got (colored vs. regular black or white), you could probably resell your Astrum when it arrives for a significant amount more money than what you paid for it.


----------



## vanir1337

e7zip said:


> same here, no answer at all, and this delay is kinda disrespectful imo.


This is a crowfunded project, refunding works a bit differently, and it shouldn't really work at all unless the there is a very good reason (such as a fraud or something). All the delay has been thoroughly explained both here and via the crowdfund page's updates as well.
Come on people...


----------



## BurningPlayd0h

The whole point of a crowdfund is that you can't just change your mind halfway through development/production and ask for a refund I think?

You are paying in advance so that your money can _go directly to R&D and production_. Pulling out before you receive your product means you have received a service (the development and production of the item) without paying for it. Like ordering a custom cake for a wedding and demanding a refund halfway through the baking because you cancelled the wedding.


----------



## 508859

e7zip said:


> same here, no answer at all, and this delay is kinda disrespectful imo.


yeah, I would like to return my old GTX 960 as I don't feel like having it anymore. where do I send my stupid request?


----------



## bst

I will be making an update soon to show how things are going. 

The delays are mostly because its the first time I made tooling for injection molding, there were a few things I wasn't prepared for, which I know now, but they weren't obvious to me when the crowd fund started. I have been keeping track of the timescales, but unfortunately the only way to know them for sure, is to do it, and see how long it took. Of course I get predictions from the factory and so on, but its not very accurate, even if I add a bit on, usually it takes longer.

In the end, even though there have been delays, looking back I am so glad I made the decisions I did. They probably saved the project from total failure. Redesigning the mouse, probably seemed like a risky and maybe bad decision to some, but it was the best decision, because it gave me control, and it took away all of the costs involved in design, which would have seriously mounted up.

The good thing is all the risky stages are over now. There is basically nothing to worry about anymore, I'm back in the area I know and have done before. Its just a case of getting it made now, really. There are bits and pieces to take care of, but its all pretty easy.

I am really grateful to everyone who backed the project, and I know how it feels to grow impatient, honestly I feel the same. But its like pushing a cart up a hill, I can't push it any faster than I am, but it is getting there.

And yeah, crowd funding is different to pre-ordering. If it were a pre-order, I would have already paid for the development etc. So it wouldn't be an issue if people wanted refunds, it doesn't affect anything. But with crowdfunding, unfortunately it does affect things, it gets to a point where you can't refund people, because the money is allocated. 

Aside from the delay, keep in mind the crowd fund has gone very well in every other area. It was funded, its passed its most tricky stages, its guaranteed you're going to get it, and its going to have been done with care and attention. And like others have said, the supply is going to be really limited when its released, so if you really wanted to, you should be able to sell Astrums quite easily, maybe even for more than you paid, especially if you have a limited edition.


----------



## e7zip

BurningPlayd0h said:


> The whole point of a crowdfund is that you can't just change your mind halfway through development/production and ask for a refund I think?
> 
> You are paying in advance so that your money can _go directly to R&D and production_. Pulling out before you receive your product means you have received a service (the development and production of the item) without paying for it. Like ordering a custom cake for a wedding and demanding a refund halfway through the baking because you cancelled the wedding.



We are talking about a huge delay here, i didn't cancelled the wedding, the cake just didn't arrived at time, and its not like 1 month delay, its a huge 3 months delay, an increase of 50% of the deadline.




numberfive said:


> yeah, I would like to return my old GTX 960 as I don't feel like having it anymore. where do I send my stupid request?


This comparison is just dumb, please, you are smarter than that.



bst said:


> And like others have said, the supply is going to be really limited when its released, so if you really wanted to, you should be able to sell Astrums quite easily, maybe even for more than you paid, especially if you have a limited edition.


This argument is also dumb, maybe you should sell my unit for a higher price and make more profit.

For me this delay is ridiculous, even more because you already have experience making mice.



After all this is just my opinion and thoughts guys, feel free to disagree.


----------



## nyshak

e7zip said:


> We are talking about a huge delay here, i didn't cancelled the wedding, the cake just didn't arrived at time, and its not like 1 month delay, its a huge 3 months delay, an increase of 50% of the deadline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This comparison is just dumb, please, you are smarter than that.
> 
> 
> 
> This argument is also dumb, maybe you should sell my unit for a higher price and make more profit.
> 
> For me this delay is ridiculous, even more because you already have experience making mice.
> 
> 
> 
> After all this is just my opinion and thoughts guys, feel free to disagree.


You backed a project. Project have estimations, but things go wrong and take longer due to risks inherent in any project. You should not have backed a project if you expected everything to go EXACTLY as planned. Instead you should have waited and bought the mouse from amazon AFTER it was developed. Sorry, but reading your reply just shows that you didn't know what you got into. Sorry, you don't have a reason to complain now.


----------



## Avalar

e7zip said:


> We are talking about a huge delay here, i didn't cancelled the wedding, the cake just didn't arrived at time, and its not like 1 month delay, its a huge 3 months delay, an increase of 50% of the deadline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This comparison is just dumb, please, you are smarter than that.
> 
> 
> 
> This argument is also dumb, maybe you should sell my unit for a higher price and make more profit.
> 
> For me this delay is ridiculous, even more because you already have experience making mice.
> 
> 
> 
> After all this is just my opinion and thoughts guys, feel free to disagree.


What? If you weren't willing to deal with potential delays, why back a crowdfunding project? If the project is successful, which it will be, the retail versions of the mouse will become available around the same time everyone else who backed the project would have gotten theirs.


----------



## 508859

e7zip said:


> This comparison is just dumb, please, you are smarter than that.


of course it is dumb, that was the idea - to show how dumb your complaint is.


----------



## e7zip

you guys are just too complacent, even if its a backed project there was a deadline, its ok for me to delay like 1 month, but this delay is out of hand, i deal with deadlines all the times and i don't miss it. I won't take those excuses from someone who already make mice.


----------



## 508859

e7zip said:


> you guys are just too complacent, even if its a backed project there was a deadline, its ok for me to delay like 1 month, but this delay is out of hand, i deal with deadlines all the times and i don't miss it. I won't take those excuses from someone who already make mice.


for someone who deal with deadlines all the time, you overreact a bit too much on this particular one


----------



## ryan92084

e7zip said:


> you guys are just too complacent, even if its a backed project there was a deadline, its ok for me to delay like 1 month, but this delay is out of hand, i deal with deadlines all the times and i don't miss it. I won't take those excuses from someone who already make mice.


I'm certainly no fan of delays but in my experience any crowdfunding venture that isn't at least a year late is doing extremely well. Crowdfunding is closer to gambling than a preorder.

Heck, there is one guy I follow who makes titanium EDC stuff and even though this was his 6th campaign and some of the others had been on time the latest project was 4 months delayed. Such is the nature of things.


----------



## vanir1337

e7zip said:


> you guys are just too complacent, even if its a backed project there was a deadline, its ok for me to delay like 1 month, but this delay is out of hand, i deal with deadlines all the times and i don't miss it. I won't take those excuses from someone who already make mice.


It's not us who are too complacent, it's clearly you who don't know how things work with such projects. But I guess it's enough said about it.


----------



## Menthalion

e7zip said:


> you guys are just too complacent, even if its a backed project there was a deadline, its ok for me to delay like 1 month, but this delay is out of hand, i deal with deadlines all the times and i don't miss it. I won't take those excuses from someone who already make mice.


1) L2CF
2) If you bothered to read BST's latest post, he clearly states how this project differs from his previous ones. TLDR; Instead of using an OEM body like his previous models, this mouse has a completely self designed one (and modular to boot). This was something completely new to him.
3) If you had read any of his posts previous to that one, he clearly states which changes were made to the design, what rationale led to them, and which technical and planning implications they had. He even gave ample opportunity to his backers for feedback on each decision.

I think a crowdfund project of such complexity done by essentially a one man operation constantly expanding beyond his comfort zone is allowed a few months grace.

My suggestion for you ? Never ever participate in crowdfunding again, and best stay away from pre-orders as well. I might go so far as to suggest not reading any news on unreleased mice either, since expectation management doesn't seem your strongest suit.


----------



## blackmesatech

ryan92084 said:


> Crowdfunding is closer to gambling than a preorder.



That is pretty accurate. Sometimes they fail and people get refunded.

As for the comments directed towards bst along the lines of "you already have experience with making mice". The previous two mice he has released were with previously existing OEM/ODM shells so his experience mainly consisted of the internals like the PCB, buttons, scrollwheel, cable and firmware/software. He didn't design those mouse shells from scratch which if it wasn't clear is a much larger task than any of the previous experience he has had with mice. Not only that but the shell he designed isn't some simple shell with three buttons where the mouse is separated into two main parts. It has removable sides and multiple configuration options plus the ability to move the sensor position. There are not a lot of mice out there that allow you to do all of that and the ones that do are often times quite heavy, this one isn't. Relax, take a breath and find something else to focus on for a while.

Please understand this is coming from someone who paid for the Ninox Aurora and never received one nor a refund.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

People who complain need to know that this mouse will be one of the best value in the market. 3360 sensor, swappable shell, flexible cable, and printable shells(if you are willing to pay a little extra to print parts). I would say that this is pretty much a good investment for a mouse for the long run since you dont need to always pay 50$ for a new mouse cuz you can swap shells or print existing specific shells of one of your favorite brands for a little extra. I can wait for the delay if this mouse really lives up the expectation.
People here already paid while im here waiting for the mouse to be out on amazon canada. ;_;


----------



## lurkerguy

Complaining about few months of delay in the timeline when people have been waiting for legitimate WMO replacement for 20 years? I wouldn't mind waiting longer as long as it's as honed on release as possible.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I know that its almost finished, but I'm not sure exactly when it will be, I'll ask them again when the Chinese new year holiday is over (that's 9 days away ).


No worries, just nice to see we're getting close to the finish line. Once you do get more info on the tooling I think it'd be best to share the info on Indiegogo instead of here since there's a fair few backers who aren't checking this thread.

One unrelated question, how close does the Beta IE feel to an IE3? Been using an EC2-A which is like a smaller, WMO-sized IE3 and it feels far more comfier than my WMO. Would love to have that with the Beta IE.


----------



## iBerggman

You know, if it's an Intellimouse you want you might as well get the new Intellimouse Pro with the 3389 and be done with it?


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@bst will the ninox astrum have 1 or 2 dpi buttons?


----------



## Zakman

iBerggman said:


> You know, if it's an Intellimouse you want you might as well get the new Intellimouse Pro with the 3389 and be done with it?


Too big and heavy. Essentially I want the Beta IE shape to be close to the EC2-A but I know Bst's not used the EC2-A but has used the IE3 which is just a larger EC2-A.


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> Too big and heavy. Essentially I want the Beta IE shape to be close to the EC2-A but I know Bst's not used the EC2-A but has used the IE3 which is just a larger EC2-A.


I've got an EC2-A now. The Beta IE shape is kind of like it. It feels similar in size (overall, but mostly its length feels similar). Grip wise (how easy they are to lift), they're both about the same.

I think they are similar enough that if you like the EC2-A you'd probably like the Beta IE.

The main difference is the Beta IE is a flatter feeling mouse. So if you just rest your hand horizontally on your mouse mat (not pushed flat, just completely relaxed), then imagine that space under your hand is filled, thats basically how it feels (maybe lift your hand up 1cm and its more like it). The EC2-A would be if you tilted your hand to the right a bit so the side of your pinkie was facing the mouse mat, and your index finger knuckle was higher, and there was more space between it and your thumb.

This kind of changes how you grip it a little bit, instead of squeezing on both sides (like, squeezing your 2 right fingers in the direction of your thumb on the other side), you kind of squeeze sideways into your thumb direction with your ring finger, and back into your palm with your pinkie. Its pretty difficult to describe, and its fairly subtle, so its one of those things you have to try, to really know what its like.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

So how do I redeem an additional Astrum through the referral system? Managed to get 5 backers. ^-^


----------



## fhpr

I really love the Astrum concept, although i must admit I have some doubts about its dimensions as i usually prefer smaller mice. The size of Astrum might turn out to be a little too big (long) for my hands. 
Will there be a rubber coating option available for 'Astrum S' ?


----------



## Rhys7

how would we get other shells printed? id like to make a bigger shell for the mouse but i dont know how it all works

im most excited to try the beta EE itll be the widest mouse ive tried !


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> So how do I redeem an additional Astrum through the referral system? Managed to get 5 backers. ^-^


When the referral period is over I will contact you directly for your choices, via the email you used on Indiegogo.



fhpr said:


> I really love the Astrum concept, although i must admit I have some doubts about its dimensions as i usually prefer smaller mice. The size of Astrum might turn out to be a little too big (long) for my hands.
> Will there be a rubber coating option available for 'Astrum S' ?


The Astrum has about 1cm of button overhang, so you can see it as a 123mm length mouse. Its not like most mice that would be that long, since the button overhang is an add on. For example, the scroll wheel is further back than it would be on a mouse that is "genuinely" 133mm long, and the curve on the side profile is that of a 123mm mouse.

I probably will do a rubber coating on the next mouse.



Rhys7 said:


> how would we get other shells printed? id like to make a bigger shell for the mouse but i dont know how it all works
> 
> im most excited to try the beta EE itll be the widest mouse ive tried !


To print the parts is easy, just use https://www.3dhubs.com/
You can select the material and the accuracy/resolution of the print, which is nice. I've used it a few times.

Designing the parts though, thats pretty difficult. You have to use CAD. I think maybe after some time, people will design new parts and share them with people. If you really want something exactly to your specifications though, you would want to find a CAD designer, on something like https://www.upwork.com . I will release some template files to make it easier, but paying someone to make parts can be expensive, depending on their hourly rate. If you go for someone who has no feedback, they may be willing to offer you a big discount for their first job, though.

Another thing you can do is get some Plasticine and stick it onto the mouse, then shape it how you want it, and get it 3D scanned. Then you can send the scan to a CAD designer and they'll match it. Again it is expensive. But maybe during this year, there will be some cheaper ways to do it, you can use a program called ReCap by Autodesk, it comes with a free trial but is expensive after that (they used to make one called 123D Catch which was free and worked well, but they stopped it). But I think 2019 will have some advances which can get decent enough results for very little, there is something here which I found, but I haven't tried yet: https://3dscanexpert.com/free-3d-scanning-video-smartphone/

I think the 3D printing is interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing what people make. But the biggest issue with it is the design. Unless you know how to use CAD or are experienced in making 3D models, its just not easy enough, its a really steep learning curve unfortunately


----------



## empyr

After using Tiger feet on the Intelli and GPW, I'm praying that the Astrum takes off, so it pops up on their radar, I don't think I'll ever use Hypers again. Tiger Gaming pls!


----------



## MentalOutOnline

im sure we will see people scanning the shell of the ultralight just to make the ninox astrum super light. maybe we should put holes on the shell of the zowie mice for the ninox XD. imaging a <80g ec2 or s2 s1?


----------



## omrtpsycho

I am pretty sure I am talking on behalf of the vast majority of the backers when I say that we really need an update on the timeline, since we are heading towards a one month delay over the three month delay on the original completion date. Yes i know, what bst did was for the greater good etc, we know, we heard it numerous times, others believe it, others not. The thing is, no matter what happened and who benefits from such delay, people that backed the project deserve to know what is going on. The new timeline was supposed to be conservative, and we are already past it. People are asking on indiegogo and they never get an answer. The Chinese New Year holiday is long over.


----------



## Klopfer

Ok chinese new year was on Tuesday, 5 February ... 
But do you know that the holidays are 15days 
Edit : public holidays ended on Sunday, 10 February ...


----------



## bst

The factory came back from their holiday yesterday, I spoke to them last night, I should have more info tonight, they're just settling back in and taking a look at everything at the moment. I will post an update as soon as I've heard from them.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

nice we have an update thanks for the new info


----------



## omrtpsycho

"It is very close to being finished, but I think we're looking at the mice being ready to ship in around 2 months."
So we are talking about a 3 month delay, including shipping time. And judging by the previous timeline estimations, where he said he was being conservative, using the words 'i think' and 'around' this time, makes me think we are not getting the mouse this year.
Good job.


----------



## nyshak

omrtpsycho said:


> "It is very close to being finished, but I think we're looking at the mice being ready to ship in around 2 months."
> So we are talking about a 3 month delay, including shipping time. And judging by the previous timeline estimations, where he said he was being conservative, using the words 'i think' and 'around' this time, makes me think we are not getting the mouse this year.
> Good job.


bst could have done a much better job keeping the indigogo crowd in the loop, but that is about what I can see he's done wrong. The hole crowdfund was about making the molds, something he has never done before. The timeframe was an estimate and it turned out to be wrong, indeed the mark has been missed by quite some time. That **** happens all the time with projects. Everywhere. It comes with the inherent risks of doing something new. *****ing about that now...well, if you don't like to support projects like this, wait till its done and buy then.

Once the molds are done, the rest is something bst has done before, so the new estimates should be more reliable, but again, they are just that. Good news is, the hard part is almost done and the mouse is being build! Let's hope it will be worth the wait. It will include some features no other mouse has to date still.


----------



## gipetto

Maybe if it delays long enough the pmw3389 will be back in stock. I wonder what happened to the small run of 3360 pcbs for intellimouse classic conversions now that the pro is out. im sure theres still interest from the wmo and io1.1 enthusiasts.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> The factory came back from their holiday yesterday, I spoke to them last night, I should have more info tonight, they're just settling back in and taking a look at everything at the moment. I will post an update as soon as I've heard from them.


Very anxious here for any more new updates :drool: .
The most important here would be availability of this latest model for the commoners of our Mouse Kingdom, with myself being among them.


----------



## a_ak57

After seeing what has happened with a lot of mechanical keyboard group buys, it's not surprising to me what is happening here. Factories have a long history of over promising the timeline, I assume to make sure they earn the bid. Then like clockwork the buyers get restless and tensions between them and the GB runner continue to escalate. 

Even worse the factories might go on radio silence to the GB runner for a bit because they know they can focus on other things and the lone person from another country can't really do anything about it. Not a theoretical either, I forget which keyboard it was but things went to **** so much that the runner gave up and was going to lose a bunch of money refunding people, until a community member in China tracked down the factory manager or whoever and then "amazingly" the project began to progress like normal again.

Other times they'll do a shoddy job and/or decide to change certain aspects of the design to make it easier for themselves and blame miscommunication in the factory because what are you going to do about it?


----------



## Zakman

@bst The delays are fine, they're part and parcel of any kickstarter really but I think you might be better off with smaller yet more frequent updates. Even something as simple as "factory is taking its time, I'll have more info for you guys in 1-2 weeks". I know you prefer the hefty updates but it does seem like some of the backers get a bit anxious if they've not heard anything official for a month or two.

Didn't want to bring the 'b' word into this but since we might be going into April, do you know if a no-deal Brexit will have any major impact on the project?


----------



## omrtpsycho

I do not know why people say that deadlines fail all the time, and this is normal. I deal with deadlines all the time. I have friends that deal with deadlines much more important than mine, and they all do fine. I mean yes, of course there will be moments that you cannot do something about it, and you are bound to miss it. Once, not twice on the same project. If you are just an employee at a company, fail twice to meet expectations on a single project, and you are out of the company.

As far as the blaming on the factory, that's what contracts are for. You can legally bind them to deliver on time, or there are consequences (financially). Also, designing the shell himself without using a CAD engineer was a mistake. He lost much time, but saved money. He knew it would take much longer when doing that himself, but he did it anyway.

Bst, your mouse seems perfect. You are not to totally blame for the delays, but you are not a saint as well. Also, you cannot be that absent on indiegogo. People gave you 83k$ for your project, and you have to honor their trust.


----------



## ryan92084

omrtpsycho said:


> *I do not know why people say that deadlines fail all the time, and this is normal.* I deal with deadlines all the time. I have friends that deal with deadlines much more important than mine, and they all do fine. I mean yes, of course there will be moments that you cannot do something about it, and you are bound to miss it. Once, not twice on the same project. If you are just an employee at a company, fail twice to meet expectations on a single project, and you are out of the company.
> 
> As far as the blaming on the factory, that's what contracts are for. You can legally bind them to deliver on time, or there are consequences (financially). Also, designing the shell himself without using a CAD engineer was a mistake. He lost much time, but saved money. He knew it would take much longer when doing that himself, but he did it anyway.
> 
> Bst, your mouse seems perfect. You are not to totally blame for the delays, but you are not a saint as well. Also, you cannot be that absent on indiegogo. People gave you 83k$ for your project, and you have to honor their trust.


Most are saying *crowdfunding* deadlines fail all the time. They are frequently smalltime orders with big Chinese factories that get treated as the low man on the totem pole. Could the shell redesign been foreseen and communication with the factory gone more quickly? Maybe if this wasn't the first round or if they had a better relationship with the factory but like many crowfunding projects it wasn't and they don't. I've followed some of these smaller ventures as they grew over time and it seems the best way they start staying on schedule is by just double or tripling the original factory estimations since they don't seem to account for any back and forth and just assume you'll let the factory do what it wants. The issue with that is people are can be more hesitant to back projects with long lead times until the maker has a reputation for success.


----------



## bst

a_ak57 said:


> After seeing what has happened with a lot of mechanical keyboard group buys, it's not surprising to me what is happening here. Factories have a long history of over promising the timeline, I assume to make sure they earn the bid. Then like clockwork the buyers get restless and tensions between them and the GB runner continue to escalate.
> 
> Even worse the factories might go on radio silence to the GB runner for a bit because they know they can focus on other things and the lone person from another country can't really do anything about it. Not a theoretical either, I forget which keyboard it was but things went to **** so much that the runner gave up and was going to lose a bunch of money refunding people, until a community member in China tracked down the factory manager or whoever and then "amazingly" the project began to progress like normal again.
> 
> Other times they'll do a shoddy job and/or decide to change certain aspects of the design to make it easier for themselves and blame miscommunication in the factory because what are you going to do about it?


The factory hasn't really done anything wrong, at least, nothing nasty.

Its just little things that build up usually. Like the engineer who didn't make one or two lists of things for me to correct on the model, but made a new list every time I'd done one list, and it wasn't to correct the work I'd done, it was a bunch of new things. And it was always difficult things too. They also wouldn't put in much effort until they had a deposit, which isn't really their fault, but it took ages to get the funds from Indiegogo, so that didn't help.

So delays sometimes seem like, "oh there must be some big problem", but really its always just been little things like that, eating away at time.

But it mostly is just a symptom of me being inexperienced with injection mold tooling. Its not really that difficult, its just if you haven't done it before, its easy to get constantly snagged on things. Its also not just basic injection molding, because weight is a factor, and that just adds a difficulty multiplier. If it was something like a keyboard, then it'd have been about 10 times easier. 

So take now for example, I can design the shells myself, all ready for the tooling, because I know exactly what to do and how far I can push things. So instead of waiting after funding to get the model ready, it'd be ready before it even started. It's just very difficult to be capable of that first time around.

I like the factory, I think they're alright. They are (in some ways) better at making things, than creating things. I think thats true with most factories. For example you won't even be able to see the source code if you have them program the firmware, and if they can't fix some problem... well you're stuck.

The factory admits when they've made mistakes and are honest, they do have the tendency to be over optimistic. But honestly the impression I get is that they do their best. That might sound a little bit naive but I'm just summarising as best I can. Basically what I mean is, as far as I can tell, they've never done anything "snakey" to me. A couple of things happened with the Venator with them, but it was just down to genuine mistakes (the kind of thing that wouldn't benefit them to do wrong). 

I wish I could just have a couple of simple reasons for delays, but its never that simple, and also its usually boring and long winded to explain. So people ask for reasons and I have to dump a wall of text on them, which isn't really what I want to do, but its just the way it is unfortunately.

I'm just glad that its coming to the end, it'll be a huge relief when its released. I don't really like crowd funding to be honest, it does make things possible, but the process itself isn't that nice, its like painting a portrait with thousands of people looking over your shoulder, asking when it'll be ready. It's only good as long as you don't hit any snags, but usually, its small businesses making their first thing, so of course they will. I really envy businesses that have the money to get their products ready behind closed doors, and then just announce that its coming out in a month  



Zakman said:


> @bst The delays are fine, they're part and parcel of any kickstarter really but I think you might be better off with smaller yet more frequent updates. Even something as simple as "factory is taking its time, I'll have more info for you guys in 1-2 weeks". I know you prefer the hefty updates but it does seem like some of the backers get a bit anxious if they've not heard anything official for a month or two.
> 
> Didn't want to bring the 'b' word into this but since we might be going into April, do you know if a no-deal Brexit will have any major impact on the project?


I should be making more frequent updates now, simply because more things will be happening. Pretty much the whole project so far has just been "the shell", and it is hard to make continual updates about it. But I know what you mean, I have let time slip further than I should have on the updates.

Brexit shouldn't make any difference, the shipments from the factory go direct to warehouses in each location, first to an Asian warehouse, then on to UK, Europe and US warehouses, then they are picked and packed and sent out.



omrtpsycho said:


> I do not know why people say that deadlines fail all the time, and this is normal. I deal with deadlines all the time. I have friends that deal with deadlines much more important than mine, and they all do fine. I mean yes, of course there will be moments that you cannot do something about it, and you are bound to miss it. Once, not twice on the same project. If you are just an employee at a company, fail twice to meet expectations on a single project, and you are out of the company.
> 
> As far as the blaming on the factory, that's what contracts are for. You can legally bind them to deliver on time, or there are consequences (financially). Also, designing the shell himself without using a CAD engineer was a mistake. He lost much time, but saved money. He knew it would take much longer when doing that himself, but he did it anyway.
> 
> Bst, your mouse seems perfect. You are not to totally blame for the delays, but you are not a saint as well. Also, you cannot be that absent on indiegogo. People gave you 83k$ for your project, and you have to honor their trust.


What you're talking about in the first paragraph is different, the kind of deadlines you're talking about are created from years of experience, between two experts (or groups of them). That is why those kinds of deadlines are so absolutely tight. They have no excuses, they have experience and expertise, and they said so in their CV. They are forced to make the promise and forced to be good enough before they make those promises.

When its a small business making their first attempt at something, especially something "adventurous", of course theres a risk the deadlines won't be reached. It happens more often than not. Its implicit that its not guaranteed, and more of an estimate, by virtue of it being new ground. I'm not going to get into this too far, because its the kind of conversation that can get very complex, and I doubt I can convince you. But I just wanted to explain my view of it.

You can't draw up contracts for every situation you encounter with a factory. If you read what I wrote to ak47 above you will see the kind of things that happened (Eg, I was being advised by them). Also, you can't always set dates in contracts to the exact date of an estimate, a contract has to be signed, so they won't agree to something that makes things too tight. So the extra time they have taken wouldn't have been avoided by a contract, at least, not by much. And they have shown me proof of their work, which shows although they are a little slow, its not by much. Another thing is, contracts can be expensive and slow. Its easy if you're a large company with lots of experience, because everything is in place and streamlined. But you can make contracts and they're not worth anything (in China), so, in some situations they can be more trouble than they're worth. Its safer and faster to make agreements with factories (when you're small), to not release funds until conditions have been met. I do know what you mean, but I'm just trying to explain how its different sometimes, depending on the situation.

It was WAY better for me to design the shell myself, even though it caused delays. I can't rely on CAD designers, I've been through quite a few in the past. A CAD designer did design the original Astrum (and it wasn't cheap), but they weren't there when I needed them to work with the factory to adjust it. Its much better at this stage to do it myself. I regret that it happened at a late stage, and it has caused delays in this project, but I didn't really have any choice at that point. Yes someone else at the CAD company could have done it, but they would have had to understand the whole project like I did, and it would have taken just as long, and I doubt it would have turned out as nicely as I made it, also it would have cost an absolute fortune on top of that.

I know I'm not a saint, I should post more regular updates on Indiegogo, but I have always been honest, and I never done things because it was the cheaper or easier thing to do. The only time I have made changes was because there literally wasn't enough funds, not because I wanted more profit (there is none, in fact the mouse will struggle to make profit because I can't order very many).

Sorry for the long post, I hope at least someone found it interesting


----------



## a_ak57

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that your factory is trying to screw you over here, just remarking on some of the various kickstarters/group buys I've paid attention to over the years. It is at the very least pretty consistent that deadlines are not met though, either because everyone involved is optimistic to a fault or because some know that if they are realistic some other factory will pop in and say "yeah well we'll get it done twice as fast (...but not really)".

It's hard to play the game correctly. You could say December release and then when delays occur people start getting mad, but if you come out of the gate and assume all the little things will go wrong and say Q2 2019, people will think "why the hell would it take so long for a damn mouse, I'm not giving you my money for that!" That latter one is really prominent with video game kickstarters. I'm sure all the companies know in the back of their minds it'll realistically take much longer than the optimistic dates they throw out (lmao at Shenmue 3 supposedly being created in 2 years), but nobody is lining up to get a game 4-5 years down the road.

In any case be glad that this is going better than some other projects. There's a guy recreating the Model F keyboard and the discussions are pretty much a warzone of those who don't give a damn about the 100% authenticity he's going for and just want a product vs those who've been willing to wait through a couple years of delays as he tweaks everything (kinda like what you're doing, but in a different way since he's trying to replicate rather than create).


----------



## 508859

omrtpsycho said:


> I do not know why people say that deadlines fail all the time, and this is normal. I deal with deadlines all the time. I have friends that deal with deadlines much more important than mine, and they all do fine. I mean yes, of course there will be moments that you cannot do something about it, and you are bound to miss it. Once, not twice on the same project. If you are just an employee at a company, fail twice to meet expectations on a single project, and you are out of the company.
> 
> As far as the blaming on the factory, that's what contracts are for. You can legally bind them to deliver on time, or there are consequences (financially). Also, designing the shell himself without using a CAD engineer was a mistake. He lost much time, but saved money. He knew it would take much longer when doing that himself, but he did it anyway.
> 
> Bst, your mouse seems perfect. You are not to totally blame for the delays, but you are not a saint as well. Also, you cannot be that absent on indiegogo. People gave you 83k$ for your project, and you have to honor their trust.


okay alright, you personally will get your mouse 1 month before the rest.


----------



## Rhys7

im just happy a decent left handed mouse will exist


----------



## omrtpsycho

bst said:


> What you're talking about in the first paragraph is different, the kind of deadlines you're talking about are created from years of experience, between two experts (or groups of them). That is why those kinds of deadlines are so absolutely tight. They have no excuses, they have experience and expertise, and they said so in their CV. They are forced to make the promise and forced to be good enough before they make those promises.
> 
> When its a small business making their first attempt at something, especially something "adventurous", of course theres a risk the deadlines won't be reached. It happens more often than not. Its implicit that its not guaranteed, and more of an estimate, by virtue of it being new ground. I'm not going to get into this too far, because its the kind of conversation that can get very complex, and I doubt I can convince you. But I just wanted to explain my view of it.
> 
> You can't draw up contracts for every situation you encounter with a factory. If you read what I wrote to ak47 above you will see the kind of things that happened (Eg, I was being advised by them). Also, you can't always set dates in contracts to the exact date of an estimate, a contract has to be signed, so they won't agree to something that makes things too tight. So the extra time they have taken wouldn't have been avoided by a contract, at least, not by much. And they have shown me proof of their work, which shows although they are a little slow, its not by much. Another thing is, contracts can be expensive and slow. Its easy if you're a large company with lots of experience, because everything is in place and streamlined. But you can make contracts and they're not worth anything (in China), so, in some situations they can be more trouble than they're worth. Its safer and faster to make agreements with factories (when you're small), to not release funds until conditions have been met. I do know what you mean, but I'm just trying to explain how its different sometimes, depending on the situation.
> 
> It was WAY better for me to design the shell myself, even though it caused delays. I can't rely on CAD designers, I've been through quite a few in the past. A CAD designer did design the original Astrum (and it wasn't cheap), but they weren't there when I needed them to work with the factory to adjust it. Its much better at this stage to do it myself. I regret that it happened at a late stage, and it has caused delays in this project, but I didn't really have any choice at that point. Yes someone else at the CAD company could have done it, but they would have had to understand the whole project like I did, and it would have taken just as long, and I doubt it would have turned out as nicely as I made it, also it would have cost an absolute fortune on top of that.
> 
> I know I'm not a saint, I should post more regular updates on Indiegogo, but I have always been honest, and I never done things because it was the cheaper or easier thing to do. The only time I have made changes was because there literally wasn't enough funds, not because I wanted more profit (there is none, in fact the mouse will struggle to make profit because I can't order very many).
> 
> Sorry for the long post, I hope at least someone found it interesting /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif


You convinced me 100%. Thank you for replying.


----------



## ocparadigm

People need to relax, R&D takes time. I'd rather get the right product and wait a few months than get something unpolished early.


----------



## Ukkooh

FYI update 11 is out on indiegogo. Apparently we might see the first Astrum by the end of the month!


----------



## nyshak

Ukkooh said:


> FYI update 11 is out on indiegogo. Apparently we might see the first Astrum by the end of the month!


Uhm, careful, some people might misread that. bst *might* get a first sample by the end of the month, not we. Basically, the timeline (around 2+ months from now until shipping) has not changed.


----------



## Avalar

nyshak said:


> Uhm, careful, some people might misread that. bst *might* get a first sample by the end of the month, not we. Basically, the timeline (around 2+ months from now until shipping) has not changed.


So far, lots of people have misread "might happen" as "will certainly happen, and you should hold it against me if it doesn't, and ask for a refund".


----------



## MentalOutOnline

On thee update 10 and 11 @bst only wrote about mouse being made but what about the software? will there be a beta or alpha for the software?


----------



## Ukkooh

MentalOutOnline said:


> On thee update 10 and 11 @bst only wrote about mouse being made but what about the software? will there be a beta or alpha for the software?


The last time he posted about it he said the mouse won't ship with it but it will be available soon after. However that was a while back and maybe with the delays he is able to finish it in time.



bst said:


> I'm not going to ship the mouse with the software, because I want to beta test it in a smaller group first, once that's done it will be available for download. I just think its the best way, I can protect the beta testers with their warranty, but I don't want to have 1000's of people with problems that I didn't forsee.
> 
> So what comes on the Astrum (just for this first batch, later batches will have the latest FW with software), will be quite similar to the Venator, in that you can change settings by holding the DPI button down and pressing other buttons (slightly different to the Venator where you had to hold down the DPI button for a few seconds to enable "menu mode" and then hold it again to exit). The only main difference will be an extra option where you can change the mouse to right or left handed use.
> 
> When the software update comes, you will still be able to change the settings in this way without the software. If you already chose settings in the software that aren't available in the "hardware menu", what happens is that whatever setting you change, eg DPI, will be cleared and start from the beginning. So lets say you have 3800 DPI set in the software, if you change the DPI by using the mouse buttons, it'll just go to 400, and you can work your way through the hardware menu's steps. If you change only the DPI, it won't reset other settings to their initial settings, it'll keep whatever you leave alone, and only change what you want it to. You can also disable this hardware menu if you worry it'll be activated by accident.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@Ukkooh thanks for the info :thumb:


----------



## bst

There will be a beta test for the software, starting small and adding more. I just don't want to release it to everyone all at once, just in case there's some problems with it. It shouldn't take long to confirm its working well for the testers, and then I can release it.


----------



## Rhys7

does anyone think the BETA EE will be any good for someone with large hands? i thinking itll be the only setup usable for me coming from fk1+ cause of left hand use..are the sides of the mouse flat too? i know that with Zowie mice they have comfort groves at the front which sucks when your fingers overhang as it forces your fingers out its nice if your hands fit but impossible if they dont ...


----------



## bst

Rhys7 said:


> does anyone think the BETA EE will be any good for someone with large hands? i thinking itll be the only setup usable for me coming from fk1+ cause of left hand use..are the sides of the mouse flat too? i know that with Zowie mice they have comfort groves at the front which sucks when your fingers overhang as it forces your fingers out its nice if your hands fit but impossible if they dont ...


To be honest I haven't tried the Beta EE in its latest form (I only tried one side, eg. Beta IE). I can't say if it'll be good or not. It's sides are more like / \ but its fairly flat where your thumb would be. It will be very wide, 82mm at its widest point. I think it'll feel alright, its just difficult to predict how you'll find it unfortunately. You might find the Beta EI is better.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@bst quick question will we have a problem if we put templates of existing mice (zowie s2 ec2b etc) on your website in the future cuz of the copyright things?


----------



## Rhys7

bst said:


> To be honest I haven't tried the Beta EE in its latest form (I only tried one side, eg. Beta IE). I can't say if it'll be good or not. It's sides are more like / \ but its fairly flat where your thumb would be. It will be very wide, 82mm at its widest point. I think it'll feel alright, its just difficult to predict how you'll find it unfortunately. You might find the Beta EI is better.


give me 82mm width please this is what i want ! my hands are wide 11.5cm and also thin to normal so wider the better.. thanks for the reply...i stopped using my tennis overgripped painful fk1+ waiting for this mouse..i dont even play games anymore just sat waiting and watching and hoping >.>


----------



## Rhys7

MentalOutOnline said:


> @bst quick question will we have a problem if we put templates of existing mice (zowie s2 ec2b etc) on your website in the future cuz of the copyright things?


is there templates you can view now? not sure how to view them


----------



## bst

MentalOutOnline said:


> @bst quick question will we have a problem if we put templates of existing mice (zowie s2 ec2b etc) on your website in the future cuz of the copyright things?


If you mean 3D files for 3D printing, to make it "more like" those mice, I don't really see much of a problem. They won't be exactly the same. Eg. If it looks similar to an ec2, then its also going to be similar to loads of other mice like that. Also, you won't be able to use the names. It'll just be a photo of the mouse, a general description, and the designer name (optionally).

For things that are a 1:1 remake, they probably won't be allowed on the site, although I don't expect that will happen very often, it'd be a lot of work, everything would have to be redesigned. Its really outside of the intent, you could theoretically use any PCB from a current mouse to remake another mouse 1:1. But there is nothing to stop you from hosting it elsewhere if you really wanted.

Generally, the 3D printing is best for just making slightly different side panels, and maybe the top/rear panel. Doing more than that starts to get complicated and less reliable (front buttons have pretty tight tolerances that 3D printing isn't great at).



Rhys7 said:


> is there templates you can view now? not sure how to view them


Not at the moment.


----------



## Rhys7

whats the slope for the palm actually like on the mouse? i struggled with fk1+ it felt way too flat just hope it fills the hand without have to apply too much pressure...best feeling mouse for me was the io1.1a even though it was too narrow..za11 too steep and skinny same for the g900...io1.1a so much better


----------



## charlieputh

*charlieputh*



empyr said:


> After using Tiger feet on the Intelli and GPW, I'm praying that the Astrum takes off, so it pops up on their radar, I don't think I'll ever use Hypers again. Tiger Gaming pls!



can u explain the difference between hypers and tiger and where can i ge them thanks?

also question @bst could we a version with holes for lower weight?


----------



## bst

Rhys7 said:


> whats the slope for the palm actually like on the mouse? i struggled with fk1+ it felt way too flat just hope it fills the hand without have to apply too much pressure...best feeling mouse for me was the io1.1a even though it was too narrow..za11 too steep and skinny same for the g900...io1.1a so much better


Its a WMO with side buttons, so kind of a mix between the IO1.1 and WMO (but mostly like the WMO), I think it will be really nice for you. I know what you mean about the fk, I thought the same about it 



charlieputh said:


> @bst could we a version with holes for lower weight?


Sorry, that would mean more tooling has to be made, so its not going to happen (really expensive). I did try holes but it wasn't worth it because it didn't save much weight, and it made things more flimsy.


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> Sorry, that would mean more tooling has to be made, so its not going to happen (really expensive). I did try holes but it wasn't worth it because it didn't save much weight, and it made things more flimsy.


Not to mention how utterly ugly holes make a mouse shell.


----------



## bst

Yeah, not a fan of holes, not to mention all the mice which have holes could have just been designed better and they wouldn't have needed them (to get to the same weight). But of course now its becoming a fad, so expect more of it  (but not from me)


----------



## Rhys7

i know i keep asking alot of questions but do the different sides actually change the top width of the mouse? worried its going to be too skinny at the top :/ for example my io1.1 starts of wide where the palm sits but narrows at the top as it goes in making it kinda unusable..


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@bst on your update said that the "by the end of the month the first mouse should be ready". So is the mouse on the tests stage now or there is no update by the factory yet?


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Yeah, not a fan of holes, not to mention all the mice which have holes could have just been designed better and they wouldn't have needed them (to get to the same weight). But of course now its becoming a fad, so expect more of it  (but not from me)


The ONLY sane man left in the Mouse Universe, thank Gawd :thumb: .

Hate seeing more of these Swiss-cheese style devices, fooling the inept and stupid into buying something that pretends to be 'lighter' due to having all those holes. Wait till something builds it's nest deep inside those devices and they spring forth in the mid to late summer season, thousands of those babies itching for blood nutrient  .

_Suckers._


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

bst said:


> Yeah, not a fan of holes, not to mention all the mice which have holes could have just been designed better and they wouldn't have needed them (to get to the same weight). But of course now its becoming a fad, so expect more of it  (but not from me)


Im still going to try to make wine as light as possible. 

Im not too sure how much of a fad it is.

I got my G Pro Wireless down to 48 grams.


----------



## bst

Rhys7 said:


> i know i keep asking alot of questions but do the different sides actually change the top width of the mouse? worried its going to be too skinny at the top :/ for example my io1.1 starts of wide where the palm sits but narrows at the top as it goes in making it kinda unusable..


Its like the WMO, not the IO1.1, sorry, I got confused between the two when I answered you earlier. It doesn't get narrow at the top, I know what you mean about that 



MentalOutOnline said:


> @bst on your update said that the "by the end of the month the first mouse should be ready". So is the mouse on the tests stage now or there is no update by the factory yet?


I've made an update on Indiegogo about it now 



0mega1Spawn said:


> Im still going to try to make wine as light as possible.
> 
> Im not too sure how much of a fad it is.
> 
> I got my G Pro Wireless down to 48 grams.


Well people choosing to do it to their mice is different to it being like it out of the factory. I don't think theres really much point going below 60-70g (in that, the benefits start to get smaller), and those weights (and much lower) can be achieved without holes. But I think that because holes are a visual indicator of a light mouse, a few companies will be doing it, that's what I mean by fad, its not necessary but it will be done anyway, just to jump on the bandwagon.


----------



## p1r4nh4

Does the Alpha have a slight slant or is it 90°?


----------



## bst

p1r4nh4 said:


> Does the Alpha have a slight slant or is it 90°?


Its 90°.


----------



## Zakman

Rhys7 said:


> i know i keep asking alot of questions but do the different sides actually change the top width of the mouse? worried its going to be too skinny at the top 😕 for example my io1.1 starts of wide where the palm sits but narrows at the top as it goes in making it kinda unusable..


The problem with the IO1.1 is that it has pyramid sides making it really hard to repeatedly lift and reset the mouse position. The Astrum (and the WMO) has completely straight sides after the initial curves.

@bst Cheers for the update, really looking forward to the finished product. Getting a bit sick of my WMO because of the flimsy feel... scroll and both buttons feel like they're about to give up the ghost and I'm missing having side buttons as well.

Will the Astrum have a sturdier feel than the WMO? I know they're in the same weight class so I'm wondering if this will affect it.


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> The problem with the IO1.1 is that it has pyramid sides making it really hard to repeatedly lift and reset the mouse position. The Astrum (and the WMO) has completely straight sides after the initial curves.
> 
> @bst Cheers for the update, really looking forward to the finished product. Getting a bit sick of my WMO because of the flimsy feel... scroll and both buttons feel like they're about to give up the ghost and I'm missing having side buttons as well.
> 
> Will the Astrum have a sturdier feel than the WMO? I know they're in the same weight class so I'm wondering if this will affect it.


Sorry, I got confused, the Astrum is like a WMO, its not really like a IO1.1 (apart from the fact its similar because the WMO is similar). For some reason because of the 1.1 part I thought we were talking about WMOs  I always call the Intellimouse Optical the IMO  

Yeah, the Astrum feels a lot sturdier than a WMO, much nicer buttons and scroll wheel.


----------



## Rhys7

bst said:


> Sorry, I got confused, the Astrum is like a WMO, its not really like a IO1.1 (apart from the fact its similar because the WMO is similar). For some reason because of the 1.1 part I thought we were talking about WMOs  I always call the Intellimouse Optical the IMO
> 
> Yeah, the Astrum feels a lot sturdier than a WMO, much nicer buttons and scroll wheel.


thanks for the info...ive never had the opportunity to play using a left handed ergonmic mouse, there isnt any currently on the market with a decent optical sensor available,razer DA left hand poor sensor, cant adjust LOD, and comfort groves at the front make it not possible for big hands...so coming from ambidextrous mice and having big hands it can only be good for me.

My hands are stupid wide so you can imagine how awkward it is using ambi mice...i just hope this is end game for me since no one is ever going to make a left handed version off a mouse again or atleast i think not, i dont think there is a market for it since small pct of people are left handed and even smaller pct play left handed...it would be hard enough finding a mouse being right handed with the stupid hands...

Im coming from the fk1+ which curves out at the front forcing my hand to sit further back giving me hardly any to no contact with the rest of my hand...so a longer wider flatter sided mouse with more palm grip and with an adjustable sensor i could cry...im crying..

I am obsessed by the astrum im considering going to the doctors..my fiance asked me after waking up who astrum was, she said i kept repeating it in my sleep...


----------



## popups

I seen the recent pics of the first shells.

I don't like the design of the main buttons and the sides. How the main buttons and sides meet might make a good amount of people displeased. The ergo side panel looks very unergonomic.

It's too bad the design wasn't created with various people and tested throughout before the molds were made. Without the use of the 3389, people are going to be expecting the shape to make up for that disappointment.


----------



## bst

popups said:


> I seen the recent pics of the first shells.
> 
> I don't like the design of the main buttons and the sides. How the main buttons and sides meet might make a good amount of people displeased. The ergo side panel looks very unergonomic.
> 
> It's too bad the design wasn't created with various people and tested throughout before the molds were made. Without the use of the 3389, people are going to be expecting the shape to make up for that disappointment.


There are loads of problems in those pictures, the panels are all loose with lots of gaps, the main buttons are drooping down (because they have no support from the switches), and whatever camera they used has loads of lens distortion. So I don't know if you're talking about that, thinking thats how they're going to look, or something else... Can you explain what you mean by the way the sides and main buttons meet?


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> There are loads of problems in those pictures, the panels are all loose with lots of gaps, the main buttons are drooping down (because they have no support from the switches), and whatever camera they used has loads of lens distortion. So I don't know if you're talking about that, thinking thats how they're going to look, or something else... Can you explain what you mean by the way the sides and main buttons meet?


Will any of the gaps in this image be in the final product, or does it just look that way because it's not fully assembled?

Also, will there be this button hanging over the side, too?


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@Avalar the mouse hasnt been assembled yet so its just putting them together but without any screw so it is this way just to get a "first impression" of how they made it. when they will put screw and fully assemble it im sure it will be fine (i hope so)


----------



## popups

When I talk about the sides and the main buttons I am referencing how it is going to feel when the sides rub against your finger as you press down the button. It appears the design is similar to the FK but the sides are more pointy/sharp. The WMO extends the buttons all the way over the sides, which can pinch your finger as you press down the button because there is little space for both fingers.

I prefer wider buttons like the EC and that slight dip/groove to flatten out the buttons whilst allowing the scroll wheel area to be higher than the buttons.


----------



## akama

Avalar said:


> Will any of the gaps in this image be in the final product, or does it just look that way because it's not fully assembled?
> 
> Also, will there be this button hanging over the side, too?


I think its quite obvious those wont be there in the final product.


----------



## Klopfer

akama said:


> I think its quite obvious those wont be there in the final product.


yes
sometimes Im thinking *** , people come on ... 
everybody must see that it isnt put/screwed together, maybe just without the inner cell ... 
also written straight above the pictures " the parts are just "placed" next to each other, which is why they look a bit misaligned " ...


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> Will any of the gaps in this image be in the final product, or does it just look that way because it's not fully assembled?
> 
> Also, will there be this button hanging over the side, too?


It just isn't properly assembled. In the last picture, its a bit of an optical illusion, the buttons aren't actually hanging over the sides, it just looks like they are. Basically theres a gap on the left side of them, but because the gap is dark, it looks like they're part of the front buttons. Then there is a tab which comes out from the side panel, which is in line with the rear of the front buttons, which kind of strengthens the illusion 

These are the only pictures I have at the moment, and are really just to show two things: That the molds are almost done (they are producing parts and just need a few tweaks now), and the surfaces have no imperfections, which can happen with injection molding (things like sink marks etc).



popups said:


> When I talk about the sides and the main buttons I am referencing how it is going to feel when the sides rub against your finger as you press down the button. It appears the design is similar to the FK but the sides are more pointy/sharp. The WMO extends the buttons all the way over the sides, which can pinch your finger as you press down the button because there is little space for both fingers.
> 
> I prefer wider buttons like the EC and that slight dip/groove to flatten out the buttons whilst allowing the scroll wheel area to be higher than the buttons.


I understand what you're talking about now, its a valid concern, but I don't think the Astrum has any issue with it. I could try to explain why, but, I have considered it in the design process, and its been tested, and its fine. You can't feel the sides when you press the buttons down normally (as in, your finger isn't directly over the line where the two meet), and even if you do, they are rounded, its just hard to see it. The thing is, even if you push the buttons all the way down, the sides don't protrude above the buttons, so they can't rub on your finger.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Its like the WMO, not the IO1.1, sorry, I got confused between the two when I answered you earlier. It doesn't get narrow at the top, I know what you mean about that



Thank you for that.

We all need a lot more WMO love here on this forum site.

If and when your model comes out, as long as it looks like a WMO it will rush off the shelves far quicker than anything made by FM, Logitech and Razer.


----------



## 508859

Elrick said:


> Thank you for that.
> 
> We all need a lot more WMO love here on this forum site.
> 
> If and when your model comes out, as long as it looks like a WMO it will rush off the shelves far quicker than anything made by FM, Logitech and Razer.


I cannot say that WMO is underloved here tho


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> You can't feel the sides when you press the buttons down normally (as in, your finger isn't directly over the line where the two meet), and even if you do, they are rounded, its just hard to see it. The thing is, even if you push the buttons all the way down, the sides don't protrude above the buttons, so they can't rub on your finger.


You're awesome. Companies _always_ get this wrong. For example, MOUSE4 on Logitech's G305, at least on mine. Just feels awful.


----------



## popups

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some bad units that come out with the same issue the FK shown: where the buttons stick above the sides due to the molding process.

Is there any pics of the PCBs?


----------



## mesrine

0mega1Spawn said:


> Im still going to try to make wine as light as possible.
> 
> Im not too sure how much of a fad it is.
> 
> I got my G Pro Wireless down to 48 grams.


Care to elaborate what did you do exactly to achieve 48 grams?


----------



## Menthalion

mesrine said:


> Care to elaborate what did you do exactly to achieve 48 grams?


Since bodies with holes was the subject I guess drilling was part of it


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

mesrine said:


> Care to elaborate what did you do exactly to achieve 48 grams?


I replaced the battery, removed the induction charging parts along with the magnets for the side buttons, cut out the dongle holder, drilled holes in and cut out chunks of the endoskeleton, drilled holes in the in the M1/M2 buttons, the base of the mouse, and the main shell of the mouse.

Images: https://imgur.com/a/8hmcFZR


----------



## Gigantoad

So how does a 48g mouse feel?


----------



## MentalOutOnline

48g for the g pro wireless bruh lightest top mouse


----------



## Rhys7

I bought a WMO just to see how the shape felt since its very similar to the ninox astrum and the is awful for me...its strange how the io1.1a feels perfect but the wmo feels dreadful...is the io1.1a an unusual shape? looks more raised where the centre of the palm would sit compared to the wmo which looks level and flat..

can anyone else tell the difference?


----------



## Avalar

0mega1Spawn said:


> I replaced the battery, removed the induction charging parts along with the magnets for the side buttons, cut out the dongle holder, drilled holes in and cut out chunks of the endoskeleton, drilled holes in the in the M1/M2 buttons, the base of the mouse, and the main shell of the mouse.
> 
> Images: https://imgur.com/a/8hmcFZR


Looks like the most fragile thing...


----------



## gipetto

@Rhys7
Well theres 13 shapes so I imagine one should be close. if not I hope someone releases a 3d print stl of the io1.1.


----------



## Rhys7

gipetto said:


> @Rhys7
> Well theres 13 shapes so I imagine one should be close. if not I hope someone releases a 3d print stl of the io1.1.


will it work to get the palm part 3d printed? i thought maybe it would just be for the side pieces...but the WMO for me is just like fk etc too flat for big hands, least with the io1.1a its kinda got a higher central arc that pushes into your palm...


----------



## gipetto

ya the palm and sides can be printed from stl. the only part that cannot is the buttons but maybe bst will change his mind once he realizes nobody is going to mass produce 3d printed clones of the astrum. thats only competitive with injection molding, and nothing is stopping anyone from doing that anyway, like hongsund did with the io1.1.
I could have told you the wmo wouldnt fit lol, i bought a faulty one to try it out too. in any event the palm is most of the grip and the buttons will be fingertipped anyway so i expect lacking the buttons 3d print wont matter. it might look unsightly with a step down.


----------



## Rhys7

gipetto said:


> ya the palm and sides can be printed from stl. the only part that cannot is the buttons but maybe bst will change his mind once he realizes nobody is going to mass produce 3d printed clones of the astrum. thats only competitive with injection molding, and nothing is stopping anyone from doing that anyway.
> I could have told you the wmo wouldnt fit lol, i bought a faulty one to try it out too. in any even the palm is most of the grip and the buttons will be fingertipped anyway so i expect lacking the buttons 3d print wont matter. it might luck unsightly with a step down.


sucks man, ill try the double ergo set up and try wrap my hand around it which should flatten out my hand in theory lol....i keep getting the io1.1a out and feeling how good the shape is...its a shame i cant get the overclock of the hz working otherwise id put some tennis overgrips on it and use it...


----------



## Ukkooh

Any chance to see those 100% ptfe undyed mouse feet from odin on the astrum?


----------



## xmr1

Ukkooh said:


> Any chance to see those 100% ptfe undyed mouse feet from odin on the astrum?


I was wondering that too since it the Odin also looks to be produced by Motospeed.


----------



## bst

Ok I've sent a message asking them if they can do it. I done it with the Aurora and it wasn't any problem, to be honest I didn't notice any difference, but if its not hard to do then why not.



xmr1 said:


> I was wondering that too since it the Odin also looks to be produced by Motospeed.


What makes you think it's made by Motospeed? There are loads of mouse factories


----------



## Zakman

@bst Not long until you can send the mouse for CE tests now?


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> @bst Not long until you can send the mouse for CE tests now?


Nope, not long now, hopefully this week, I'll keep the updates coming as they happen


----------



## xmr1

bst said:


> Ok I've sent a message asking them if they can do it. I done it with the Aurora and it wasn't any problem, to be honest I didn't notice any difference, but if its not hard to do then why not.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it's made by Motospeed? There are loads of mouse factories


Just little things I noticed like the weird circle grooves around the sensor hole, the cable and cable stress relief looking identical to Phantomcord/Shoelace cables, the matte coating at the start of Menismyforte's video looks like a match to the coating on my black Venator, the overall design just looks very Motospeed to me. But I guess I could be wrong and it only looks that way because it's heavily inspired by Finalmouse.


----------



## bst

xmr1 said:


> Just little things I noticed like the weird circle grooves around the sensor hole, the cable and cable stress relief looking identical to Phantomcord/Shoelace cables, the matte coating at the start of Menismyforte's video looks like a match to the coating on my black Venator, the overall design just looks very Motospeed to me. But I guess I could be wrong and it only looks that way because it's heavily inspired by Finalmouse.


I talked to Ivy (from the factory), about the mouse feet (she wasn't at the factory, she just replied to me on skype), she said shes going to ask about the feet when she gets in. I also mentioned the Odin, she said its not made at Motospeed. I can see what you mean though


----------



## RaleighStClair

Do we know yet what type of cable the Astrum will be using (phantom/para, rubbers, etc.)?


----------



## ryan92084

RaleighStClair said:


> Do we know yet what type of cable the Astrum will be using (phantom/para, rubbers, etc.)?


Whatever is most flexible that bst can get certified.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> Nope, not long now, hopefully this week, I'll keep the updates coming as they happen


I'm so excited mate  Once all the paperwork's sorted and you're happy with the mouse then it should take around a month and a half to manufacture, right?

Also, will you be able to break-even with this mouse from the get-go?


----------



## bst

RaleighStClair said:


> Do we know yet what type of cable the Astrum will be using (phantom/para, rubbers, etc.)?


It'll be like the shoelace/phantom, thats what I'm submitting it with anyway. It should pass, but I don't want to confirm it yet just in case. Everyone elses has though, so I don't see why the Astrum shouldn't 



Zakman said:


> I'm so excited mate  Once all the paperwork's sorted and you're happy with the mouse then it should take around a month and a half to manufacture, right?
> 
> Also, will you be able to break-even with this mouse from the get-go?


Should take about 1-1.5 months to manufacture, yes. It'll make a little bit of profit on the first run, but that will go back into buying more stock.


----------



## RaleighStClair

bst said:


> It'll be like the shoelace/phantom, thats what I'm submitting it with anyway. It should pass, but I don't want to confirm it yet just in case. Everyone elses has though, so I don't see why the Astrum shouldn't




Sounds great!


----------



## muso

i'm sure this has already been answered but is this a limited run? Will i be able to buy specifically a white astrum if i like my rubber grey one?


----------



## empyr

muso said:


> i'm sure this has already been answered but is this a limited run? Will i be able to buy specifically a white astrum if i like my rubber grey one?


You should be able to, yes. From what i gathered, bst will sell them on Amazon and continue to do so like the Venator (I'm sure he can confirm this himself?).


----------



## bst

The black and white ones aren't a limited run, but the other colours are exclusive to the crowd fund. So yes, you will be able to buy a white one in the future.


----------



## ewiggle

The [indiegogo] page says "project complete: march 13, 2019". Is it happening? Is it done? Finished?


----------



## j0rb3n

@bst Hello, is it possible to pay the difference between the black or white and the special colors contribution? I already got the basic black or white but just saw some photos and now I want a colored one! Is this possible? Thanks.

P.S. I also messaged on reddit but I'm not sure if it went through as I have nver messaged on reddit before. THanks!


----------



## bst

ewiggle said:


> The [indiegogo] page says "project complete: march 13, 2019". Is it happening? Is it done? Finished?


Take a look at the last couple of updates on Indiegogo for more info, but the answer is no, its not done yet, sorry 



j0rb3n said:


> @bst Hello, is it possible to pay the difference between the black or white and the special colors contribution? I already got the basic black or white but just saw some photos and now I want a colored one! Is this possible? Thanks.
> 
> P.S. I also messaged on reddit but I'm not sure if it went through as I have nver messaged on reddit before. THanks!


Unfortunately Indiegogo doesn't allow that, the only way to change your order is to cancel the one you have, and make a new one. Sorry about that


----------



## j0rb3n

Thank you. Cancelled and re-did it with glossy purple. Can't wait!


----------



## bst

Heres a picture of the pure PTFE mouse feet, I haven't got them yet, but they said they have some roundness to the edges (so they aren't sharp at least): https://snag.gy/S2cKrC.jpg


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Heres a picture of the pure PTFE mouse feet, I haven't got them yet, but they said they have some roundness to the edges (so they aren't sharp at least): https://snag.gy/S2cKrC.jpg


Not bad.

But as always the proof is in the using, hence when can we try these feet out on your latest model?

I'm talking about availability on Max Gaming Site here, please.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

first time wee see the mouse feet and it looks pretty good well hope so


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Heres a picture of the pure PTFE mouse feet, I haven't got them yet, but they said they have some roundness to the edges (so they aren't sharp at least): https://snag.gy/S2cKrC.jpg


Is it possible to get the bevel on par with Hyperglide's? Like this for the Finalmouse ULP, for example. Even if not, rounded PTFE feet will already be miles ahead of everyone else's stock feet. Looking forward to my first main mouse where I don't have to replace the mouse feet, even after I install a new cable. ^-^


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> Not bad.
> 
> But as always the proof is in the using, hence when can we try these feet out on your latest model?
> 
> I'm talking about availability on Max Gaming Site here, please.


If you mean when will the Astrum be available on Max Gaming, they'll be stocking it as soon as its available.



Avalar said:


> Is it possible to get the bevel on par with Hyperglide's? Like this for the Finalmouse ULP, for example. Even if not, rounded PTFE feet will already be miles ahead of everyone else's stock feet. Looking forward to my first main mouse where I don't have to replace the mouse feet, even after I install a new cable. ^-^


I've asked about this, but I didn't get a reply yet, I've sent another message now.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> If you mean when will the Astrum be available on Max Gaming, they'll be stocking it as soon as its available.
> 
> 
> 
> I've asked about this, but I didn't get a reply yet, I've sent another message now.


Awesome. Thanks!


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> If you mean when will the Astrum be available on Max Gaming, they'll be stocking it as soon as its available.



So it will be available during 2019.....  ?


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@bst you should put the update of the mouse feet on the indiegogo page since there isnt a lot of people that goes to this page


----------



## nyshak

Every update with new stuff should go on indiegogo.


----------



## gipetto

I saw this video which implied the reason modern mice doubleclick is not because of faulty switches but because the wetting current is too low. He based this theory on comparing mx518 switches to modern ones and finding no difference, thus concluding the issue was in the circuit. This can be fixed by using external pullups. Is it too late to add pullups to the astrum?


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> So it will be available during 2019.....  ?


Yeah, I just can't say precisely when, yet. As soon as I know I will let you (and everyone else) know 



nyshak said:


> Every update with new stuff should go on indiegogo.


Well its quite a small thing, and they are still working on them, I'll see what they say tonight. If they've got new ones coming I'll wait.



gipetto said:


> I saw this video which implied the reason modern mice doubleclick is not because of faulty switches but because the wetting current is too low. He based this theory on comparing mx518 switches to modern ones and finding no difference, thus concluding the issue was in the circuit. This can be fixed by using external pullups. Is it too late to add pullups to the astrum?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5BhECVlKJA


Thanks, I saw this video the other day, its interesting.

The LMB and RMB already use external pullups, its part of the recommended circuit for the optical switches. So they're ok.

However I checked the side buttons and they need 0.2mA minimum (100 max), and the Atmega MCU @ 5V has an internal pullup resistance of 20-50K, which means it can supply 0.1-0.25mA. So yeah they would be better off with external pullups, I can use about 5K and they'll get 1mA, which will put them into spec.

Fortunately it is very easy to add external pullups, so its not too late


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Yeah, I just can't say precisely when, yet. As soon as I know I will let you (and everyone else) know



The wallet is waiting for you BST. Hoping this model make's it down the Max Gaming runway this year sometime.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

i just hope the mouse will be on amazon


----------



## winz0r

Yes the mouse will be on amazon.


----------



## bleabbraxhm

Any chance for this stuff to be added into the mouse, that is independent of windows. I would definitely buy it if this strange stuff was to be added in the future.

- Quake style accel settings, offset, cap etc. Accurate calculation of integer and float inputs.

- Independent X / Y DPI offset sensitivities. Not really Independent X / Y DPI. Similar to YAW/PITCH, but Y axis uses a multiplier independent of base DPI.

- Asymmetric DPI. Higher eDPI without raising base DPI, as in 400 DPI with 1.5x, making it 600 eDPI. The purpose of this thing, Is the introduction of stutter to eliminate low frequency judder, then filtering/masking that stutter with a lower video resolution.

I currently use the mice supported by steel series engine 3, just for the inbuilt acceleration. But these mainstream mice will probably never add the above stuff, so I hope some indie takes up some of these niche things.

Thanks for reading!


----------



## bst

MentalOutOnline said:


> i just hope the mouse will be on amazon


It will be.



bleabbraxhm said:


> Any chance for this stuff to be added into the mouse, that is independent of windows. I would definitely buy it if this strange stuff was to be added in the future.
> 
> - Quake style accel settings, offset, cap etc. Accurate calculation of integer and float inputs.
> 
> - Independent X / Y DPI offset sensitivities. Not really Independent X / Y DPI. Similar to YAW/PITCH, but Y axis uses a multiplier independent of base DPI.
> 
> - Asymmetric DPI. Higher eDPI without raising base DPI, as in 400 DPI with 1.5x, making it 600 eDPI. The purpose of this thing, Is the introduction of stutter to eliminate low frequency judder, then filtering/masking that stutter with a lower video resolution.
> 
> I currently use the mice supported by steel series engine 3, just for the inbuilt acceleration. But these mainstream mice will probably never add the above stuff, so I hope some indie takes up some of these niche things.
> 
> Thanks for reading!


Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know what you mean with the asymmetric DPI (I understand what you're asking for, just not sure why you'd want it), but the whole purpose of developing the FW (firmware) in-house, as opposed to the factory doing it, was to have complete control, so things like this can be done.

The FW will start off fairly basic, and develop over time. All the future mice will use the same setup, so they'll all have access to the same features. So things like accel won't be available at first, but it is definitely planned, its just at the moment I'm focusing on giving it a solid foundation, then after that, the experiments can begin  . You can of course update and rollback to any versions you prefer, with a flash update.

Adding quake-like accel isn't as easy as it might seem, its better to do it in the game, really. I mean you can do it, but the in-game sensitivity will affect it, so the mouse will need to know what you use, so it the correct values are assigned, and you get the feeling that you expect. I'm not sure it can ever be truly user friendly, but I don't mind doing it, although these kinds of features will probably be a bit hidden away in an advanced menu that you unlock, just so that the average user doesn't get overloaded with loads of options that they have no idea what they do


----------



## bleabbraxhm

bst said:


> It will be.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know what you mean with the asymmetric DPI (I understand what you're asking for, just not sure why you'd want it), but the whole purpose of developing the FW (firmware) in-house, as opposed to the factory doing it, was to have complete control, so things like this can be done.
> 
> The FW will start off fairly basic, and develop over time. All the future mice will use the same setup, so they'll all have access to the same features. So things like accel won't be available at first, but it is definitely planned, its just at the moment I'm focusing on giving it a solid foundation, then after that, the experiments can begin  . You can of course update and rollback to any versions you prefer, with a flash update.
> 
> Adding quake-like accel isn't as easy as it might seem, its better to do it in the game, really. I mean you can do it, but the in-game sensitivity will affect it, so the mouse will need to know what you use, so it the correct values are assigned, and you get the feeling that you expect. I'm not sure it can ever be truly user friendly, but I don't mind doing it, although these kinds of features will probably be a bit hidden away in an advanced menu that you unlock, just so that the average user doesn't get overloaded with loads of options that they have no idea what they do


That all sounds great! I do look forward to the future developments, one of my old but gold mice had some ongoing firmware changes, similar to what you describe.

For the asymmetric DPI, its just a personal theory that may or may not actually have a benefit to aiming. The theory is to "Transforming variable i/o frequencies, into one high frequency alignment" , "Aligning the angle of input to align as close a possible to the video i/o, in a high frequency". The purpose is to introduce a high frequency "Stutter", buffer that noise by hiding it under a lower video resolution, that also matches the "Beat frequency" of the asymmetric DPI ratio, while allowing the benefit that a lower DPI presents in the form of noise suppression. It is the same concept of Frame rate to monitor HZ alignment, picking one or another frequency is entirely up to the user, (IE 1.5x) 144hz with 216fps is very noisy, but you will never be able to pinpoint a tear line, since everything is aligned in a high frequency way. 144hz 144fps will have a low frequency alignment and that phenomena is observed with a horizontal tearline that is easily visible. Input is also low frequency, where the device is slowly changing the timing of the input. The same thing applies to the interpolation done by scaling arbitrary resolutions on an LCD, something that never happened with old cathode ray tubes.

The largest criticism I have observed with my favorite Stutter frequency (1.5x) is how can one reliably aim when the mouse delivers 1 count and immediately after delivers 2 counts, how can one effectively control an alternating sensitivity??? The onus is on the player to observe what one has to aim at, and how one can manipulate the FOV, Resolution, DPI and Ingame sensitivity to Reliably control this high frequency alternation. At extreme ranges the benefit of introducing this "RNG", the user may reliably hit a longer range target more often, sometimes . This is augmented through the natural noise suppression that a lower DPI introduces. The one could argue against mouse acceleration as having a similar unpredictability, saying that the RNG is not beneficial, thus denying the benefit that it has to longer range accuracy, and applying that to asymmetric DPI.

Like I said earlier, its just a theory, it is something I decided to investigate after reading about the Nyquist frequency, which presents a minimum ratio that does not introduce errors within computerized system that is not synced, but has a divisible rate.

but do look forward on checking out the development of the mouse based on your response!


----------



## Rhys7

do we have a rough timescale on when this mouse will be done?


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> 66.6mm isn't the grip width of the WMO, its the width of the flares at the sides. Its grip width is 58mm.
> 
> Something else you have to bear in mind is the straight sides, they make it feel wider. But basically if you like the WMO and its grip width, you should be fine with the Astrum.
> 
> Btw, the dimensions have changed a little bit since it was redesigned: 132 L x 39.5 H x 66.5 W
> The Alpha and gamma just have different widths, but the same height and length: 58mm (Alpha) and 78mm (Gamma).


Sorry for reviving this old message bst but just wondering if this post still holds true? Are the dimensions still 132 length x 39.5 height x 66.5 width? Just wondering since I know you've done a ton of work on the Astrum since last December.


----------



## muso

I wonder if this or the glorious odin will ship first.


----------



## p1r4nh4

bst said:


> Heres a picture of the pure PTFE mouse feet, I haven't got them yet, but they said they have some roundness to the edges (so they aren't sharp at least): https://snag.gy/S2cKrC.jpg


I've spent a fair amount of time making my own mouse feet with pure teflon but never could perfect making rounded edges. Are your mouse feet molded or are they cut from sheets and then the sides are rounded by cutting?


----------



## Avalar

One of the backers I referred refunded at some point. Or idk what happened, but I went from 5 backers to 4. RIP. I was only one away from the complete set of colors. ;-;

somebody help me pls


----------



## Ukkooh

Avalar said:


> One of the backers I referred refunded at some point. Or idk what happened, but I went from 5 backers to 4. RIP. I was only one away from the complete set of colors. ;-;
> 
> somebody help me pls


Somebody in reddit had a similar issue and bst commented on it that indiegogo changed how he sees the referrals and it apparently somehow messed the counters. You propably still have 5 referrals.


----------



## popups

muso said:


> I wonder if this or the glorious odin will ship first.


Looks like the Odin will.


----------



## Ukkooh

popups said:


> Looks like the Odin will.


Unless something went very wrong with the FCC/CE certification I don't see this happening.


----------



## muso

Odin is in May and Astrum is in ????


----------



## omrtpsycho

Ok, since noone is asking...

Bst, its been a month since the first mouse would have been made and sent for certification, and in 20 days MAX, the production would begin. We are a month late now.


----------



## popups

It takes about 2 months to get a mouse in your area for you to buy.

We haven't seen a completed mouse yet. We saw some tooling and some shells. We haven't seen PCBs or cables.

I assume this means the tooling isn't completed nor the certifications, thus the mouse is going to be about 4-6 months away. I think by that time the Odin would be in some selected people's hands and making its way to the market shortly after that. If I had seen the PCBs and cables ready, I would maybe think sooner than 4 months.


----------



## empyr

I wish bst would make more regular updates currently, the project needs it, because the current estimate is completely off again. I backed the project on Day 1 and I'm finding it harder and harder to keep not lose my interest.


----------



## Nx87

Crowdfunding projects being completed even close to on time are the exception not the rule.
I backed on day#1 and put it out of my mind ever since, experience with other kickstarters has temperated my expectations.
That said, I'll be surprised if we don't get the mouse in our hands before Christmas.


----------



## empyr

Nx87 said:


> Crowdfunding projects being completed even close to on time are the exception not the rule.
> I backed on day#1 and put it out of my mind ever since, experience with other kickstarters has temperated my expectations.
> That said, I'll be surprised if we don't get the mouse in our hands before Christmas.


Yes, it is the exception. Currently, we do not have any idea if things are still in need of changes or if things are on their way to being "finished"

Overall currently, I'll be extremely surprised if we get the mouse before September.


----------



## aCz-

I'm not a most patient person. But even after I put my money in to crowd founding I knew it won't be ready in december. My expectations was about march or april. But we all know it wont happen even then. At this point i'm starting to get a bit mad. I need a new mouse and I don't wanna buy some other mice just because I already bouth two they are not just ready and will be shipped who knows when.


----------



## pez

It's reasonable to want updates, but bst isn't trying to scam you guys or being lazy about the process. I can't say I've ever seen an update from him that wasn't full of details of why it was late (if it was).

At this point, I just have to update my shipping address as I'll be moving before these ship, but I backed knowing full well this might take quite some time.


----------



## lurkerguy

I think what we need is a new estimation chart that would be final.

I personally hope we get the mouse before Diabotical since I went back to W10 and overclocking WMO to 1000Hz there is now unnecessary hard since Microsoft are bunch of dumbasses. I just would like to put my WMO into bin already, love you bst but please hurry.


----------



## ryan92084

As has been said until certification is done we're in a holding pattern and the timeline is sketchy. While some would love to watch the tracking numbers on the way to get certified I'm sure we'll get an update when bst has something more concrete to say. As of right now the hopeful estimation timing for certification just recently passed and we haven't entered into the 2-4 month estimation given feb 19.


----------



## dibodibo13

this is so wrong. i know bst is not trying to scam people but just wants to make a good mouse, and doesnt want to let down people who backed his project. in acccording to dec 7th update, tooling and testing should be done by jan. what is important is that he didnt even make a update in whole jan, even worse, not before jan 21 as he predicted, saying that "its gonna little late because of blah blah(specific reason), now im doing something which take x weeks", or after 21st of jan untill feb. here we are april second, 3months passed from estimated time line when tooling and qc should be completed, doesn't know how much the progress has been made. we dont even know he had made first mouse and how much left. it could be 2-4 months in according to some people, some people says more than 4 months, or untill chirstmas. last update was a month a go, which includes the following contents "I'll post again when I have more news, it shouldn't be long." i believe 29 days are more than 'not so long' unless people live life 1000 years.

if it was not done by crowd funding, it's totally okay to not report anything.

i believe bst's word. it seems like nothing can reasonably expect timeline, feels like let down people no matter what he does. i also know it is extremely hard because i made my crappy one.
what he can't do is set a specific deadline, but he can do update what process he is in, at expected time. that is not how he is doing right now. all the necessary informations are not updated and said directly.
that makes me out of my patient. please make a regular update please.


----------



## ryan92084

bst posts the update on OCN a lot more frequently than on IGG. There were January updates here, here, and here


----------



## pez

Am I mis-remembering in that he has been updating a Reddit thread as well?


----------



## frunction

If only there was some sort of precedent on the internet for pre-ordering a mouse from BST.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

Well, at least I am getting some form of updates compared to FinalMouse. In the end that's all I ask for. Hopefully, there will be more info soon, this is pretty much the only crowdfunding item I've purchased...EVER!


----------



## bst

I'm sorry for not posting regular updates, but honestly I don't have any myself, the only thing I can really post is: "They're still working on it", but, everyone knows that already.

I don't really want to talk about it much, but I will just say that I don't think anyone has really made any big mistakes, except on the estimations of how long it'll take. But I realise now, that it is probably normal. Its just more annoying and obvious because its a crowd fund. If you look at a lot of mice that were developed without crowd funds, they all take ages as well. Its just not so obvious, because the entire development isn't public.

Mine and the factory's best interest is to act in the customer's best interest, so there is nothing for either of us to gain by being lazy with the mouse's development. We don't want mistakes, or delays. It actually affects us more than any customer is affected, in the end.

I wish I could have made the mouse without a crowd fund, I know it sounds ungrateful, but I'm sure everyone can see why 

Having said all of that, I do have an update to make. I didn't expect it to take this long before I had news, and by the way I also find the wait incredibly excruciating, I hate it just as much if not more than anyone else.

I've attached a photo of the PCBs, for Popups  PCBs are not hard to make, I think I actually posted some photos of them ages ago, but this picture is newer. The only thing that will change on these, aside from them missing their switches and encoders in this photo, is the pullup resistors being added for the side buttons and scroll wheel button. But like I said that is very easy. Also bear in mind, these PCBs were made by hand and have a load of flux on them, they won't look like that when they're mass produced.

As for the mold tooling, they are still working on it, I have a couple of new pictures to show, which I'll post on Indiegogo. I only got these pictures this morning so I am making the update as soon as I can. They've almost finished it, they said its been really difficult. They predict they just need one more phase to complete it, which will take about 3 weeks. They said that the shells aren't good enough for certification, I'm still talking about it with them though, I don't fully understand why yet (might need to add the pullup resistors first). Maybe I can get them to do it during the next 3 weeks.


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> I'm sorry for not posting regular updates, but honestly I don't have any myself, the only thing I can really post is: "They're still working on it", but, everyone knows that already.
> 
> I don't really want to talk about it much, but I will just say that I don't think anyone has really made any big mistakes, except on the estimations of how long it'll take. But I realise now, that it is probably normal. Its just more annoying and obvious because its a crowd fund. If you look at a lot of mice that were developed without crowd funds, they all take ages as well. Its just not so obvious, because the entire development isn't public.
> 
> Mine and the factory's best interest is to act in the customer's best interest, so there is nothing for either of us to gain by being lazy with the mouse's development. We don't want mistakes, or delays. It actually affects us more than any customer is affected, in the end.
> 
> I wish I could have made the mouse without a crowd fund, I know it sounds ungrateful, but I'm sure everyone can see why
> 
> Having said all of that, I do have an update to make. I didn't expect it to take this long before I had news, and by the way I also find the wait incredibly excruciating, I hate it just as much if not more than anyone else.
> 
> I've attached a photo of the PCBs, for Popups  PCBs are not hard to make, I think I actually posted some photos of them ages ago, but this picture is newer. The only thing that will change on these, aside from them missing their switches and encoders in this photo, is the pullup resistors being added for the side buttons and scroll wheel button. But like I said that is very easy. Also bear in mind, these PCBs were made by hand and have a load of flux on them, they won't look like that when they're mass produced.
> 
> As for the mold tooling, they are still working on it, I have a couple of new pictures to show, which I'll post on Indiegogo. I only got these pictures this morning so I am making the update as soon as I can. They've almost finished it, they said its been really difficult. They predict they just need one more phase to complete it, which will take about 3 weeks. They said that the shells aren't good enough for certification, I'm still talking about it with them though, I don't fully understand why yet (might need to add the pullup resistors first). Maybe I can get them to do it during the next 3 weeks.


Thanks for the update! What's the final encoder model, can we know that already? Sorry if it was said before, missed that update if so.


----------



## bst

vanir1337 said:


> Thanks for the update! What's the final encoder model, can we know that already? Sorry if it was said before, missed that update if so.


Its the Light Strike (LK) encoder, has 20 steps, and its using the highest lifespan model. I think it feels really nice to use.

Edit: I should add, that encoder in the picture isn't the LK one, I don't know why that's in the picture. The LK one has 4 pins, not 3


----------



## gipetto

Those pcbs are impressive, even more so when you realise all that has to fit in a cut down 1/2 length shell. Is the right button pcb missing? I dont see a corresponding socket for it.
You mentioned ages ago you were going to do a small run of mouse pcbs. I guess since the ie3.0 pro came out that is off the cards. Many would like a drop in wmo and io1.1 pcb. the front button layout appears to be cross compatible so you would be able to service both mice with the same pcb.


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> Its the Light Strike (LK) encoder, has 20 steps, and its using the highest lifespan model. I think it feels really nice to use.
> 
> Edit: I should add, that encoder in the picture isn't the LK one, I don't know why that's in the picture. The LK one has 4 pins, not 3


Definitely sounds interesting, can't wait to try it!


----------



## lurkerguy

I guess you are missing one part there for right mouse button and wheel button. After the tooling is finished in 3 weeks (hopefully), if everything proceeds without issues are we going to see the mouse dropped in June at the earliest?


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> Those pcbs are impressive, even more so when you realise all that has to fit in a cut down 1/2 length shell. Is the right button pcb missing? I dont see a corresponding socket for it.
> You mentioned ages ago you were going to do a small run of mouse pcbs. I guess since the ie3.0 pro came out that is off the cards. Many would like a drop in wmo and io1.1 pcb. the front button layout appears to be cross compatible so you would be able to service both mice with the same pcb.


See below about the right button PCB.

I'm not going to make the drop in PCBs for those mice, for lots of reasons. But the Astrum Beta shape is pretty much a WMO/IO1.1, so, its not all bad  

I think a modder could make the PCBs really easily, the only thing you've got to be careful of is because they're not certified, you might get in trouble if you sell a lot. But thats one reason its better someone does it who's not connected with a mouse company. The thing is, all the information is there, use the teensy 2.0 and tindie 3360 schematic, throw a couple of switches and encoder in, connect it up like in the IE Classic 3360 guide and you can use its firmware. Making a PCB from a schematic is really easy, just use a free program like designspark, you just copy the schematic and it will almost make the PCB for you. You just decide where things go... all it is, is drawing lines, mostly. When finished, just send the design to a company like https://www.pcbway.com/ who will make it for you (you might need to supply some of the parts). The only thing that might catch a newbie out is, keep the D+ and D- from the USB plug to MCU pins the same length. Its just one of those things, I think people believe it'll be hard, so it puts them off, but its actually not hard, it just takes some time to do it. It would be quite a bit more difficult if you had to figure out the entire schematic yourself, but, you don't 



lurkerguy said:


> I guess you are missing one part there for right mouse button and wheel button. After the tooling is finished in 3 weeks (hopefully), if everything proceeds without issues are we going to see the mouse dropped in June at the earliest?


Yep, the right button PCB isn't in that photo. I attached a blueprint of it, so you can see what its like. I could ask the factory for more pictures, but they've sent the PCBs to me now, I should have them soon. They also sent an Astrum mouse shell with it, so I'll take photos when I get them, which I guess could be on Monday.

If there are no issues going forward, it could be in June, I think that would be zero issues though. But it is possible. I don't want to promise it'll definitely happen though.


----------



## dibodibo13

yes! bst is here! im really sorry if i offend you. i dont mean it absolutely, because english is not my native( i only learned it in school, reading listening, basic writing exepct speacking, culture etc ,etc, etc....). in my defence, it sounds quite polite in korean. guess it wasn't the case...ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ. really sorry if i hurt your feeling. im big fan of yours since intellimouse with pmw 3360 and im very happy to see how pcb of adjustable positioning sensor would look like! cant wait to hold in my hands.
nobody haven't tried a light weight, modular mouse with adjustable sensor in one mouse with gaming compatibility in it!


----------



## gipetto

It is easy if you know how. As I am on a budget I try to stick to linux and free software so that limits what I can use. I did have a go at making a schematic in kicad but the learning curve was too steep. The parts library lacked the pmw3360 footprint and as im sure you are aware it is not a standard size. I used a schematic for a mechanical keyboard. I have used fritzing a few times, but all i ended up doing was adding weight by replacing wires with a pcb. I still plan to use it to make a button section when you release the venator mk2. electronics is not a good hobby for the poor so I try to stick to programming.


----------



## bst

dibodibo13 said:


> yes! bst is here! im really sorry if i offend you. i dont mean it absolutely, because english is not my native( i only learned it in school, reading listening, basic writing exepct speacking, culture etc ,etc, etc....). in my defence, it sounds quite polite in korean. guess it wasn't the case...ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ. really sorry if i hurt your feeling. im big fan of yours since intellimouse with pmw 3360 and im very happy to see how pcb of adjustable positioning sensor would look like! cant wait to hold in my hands.
> nobody haven't tried a light weight, modular mouse with adjustable sensor in one mouse with gaming compatibility in it!


Don't worry, you didn't hurt my feelings, I wasn't really replying to anyone specific, just trying to explain things. Because I can see it from a customer's perspective, if you pay money for something, and its delayed, it can be upsetting. I wanted to try and explain that its not because people working on it don't care. If I don't explain that, then it could be what people begin to think. I want people to know the truth of what is happening, its not nice to think you spent money on something and the people you gave it to don't care, so I just don't want people to feel that way when its not true, I think it just makes people feel worse. I did think you were polite, also 



gipetto said:


> It is easy if you know how. As I am on a budget I try to stick to linux and free software so that limits what I can use. I did have a go at making a schematic in kicad but the learning curve was too steep. The parts library lacked the pmw3360 footprint and as im sure you are aware it is not a standard size. I used a schematic for a mechanical keyboard. I have used fritzing a few times, but all i ended up doing was adding weight by replacing wires with a pcb. I still plan to use it to make a button section when you release the venator mk2. electronics is not a good hobby for the poor so I try to stick to programming.


I didn't know how, but fair enough I was using windows, and design spark is a really easy program to learn (and has great tutorial videos), and as a stepping stone, it really makes learning the more advanced programs easier. I suppose electronics is more expensive than programming, but, I think it can be fun, and not that expensive unless you make loads of PCBs. And if you need windows, you can get that really cheap.

BTW, for you or anyone who wants it, the PCB schematic/component for the 3360 is here: http://componentsearchengine.com/part.php?partID=857175
And ATMEGA32U4: https://componentsearchengine.com/part.php?partID=27966

Also you can request they make any part, as long as they can get the datasheet, they'll make it, for free (it was me who requested they make the 3360 sensor )


----------



## kr0w

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame’s on me. We saw this with the Aurora, and bst actually went MIA for a while on that project. But aside from the LMB and RMB debounce that was hardwired and couldn’t be modified with firmware, the mouse was great.

He has a history of underestimating delivery time, but at least it seems he developing/manufacturing everything correctly this time. And he posts updates as they come, which is a plus since Aurora.

As a tip, under promise and over deliver with your deadlines next time!


----------



## gipetto

I was reading the thread about the ladder effect pmw3360 do when moving diagonally (linked below), and was wondering how to make it behave like an mlt04. since x and y move alternately on different polls then polling the sensor at twice the usb rate(2000hz), then summing the both x movements and both y. 

Would that lag the processor? maybe there is a less intensive way, for instance trick the sensor into thinking there is an error in the first poll, then resend the same movement plus a little more for the second poll. From that it would be easy to compare each axis to see whether it was larger or smaller (AND operation), then use a bitshift operator to overwrite the smallest bit with diagonal movement.
Or maybe there is a way to read out one axis only per poll, then there would be no need to do any addition.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1565518-pmw3366-why-do-you-exist-5.html


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> I was reading the thread about the ladder effect pmw3360 do when moving diagonally (linked below), and was wondering how to make it behave like an mlt04. since x and y move alternately on different polls then polling the sensor at twice the usb rate(2000hz), then summing the both x movements and both y.
> 
> Would that lag the processor? maybe there is a less intensive way, for instance trick the sensor into thinking there is an error in the first poll, then resend the same movement plus a little more for the second poll. From that it would be easy to compare each axis to see whether it was larger or smaller (AND operation), then use a bitshift operator to overwrite the smallest bit with diagonal movement.
> Or maybe there is a way to read out one axis only per poll, then there would be no need to do any addition.
> 
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1565518-pmw3366-why-do-you-exist-5.html


Thanks, that's interesting. It'll definitely be worth a go, not just yet, but once I have more time I'll look into it further


----------



## bst

I got the shells and PCB yesterday, I'll just quickly go through the details:

Firstly, the PCB they sent was wrong, it had no components on the board except switches. They said they sent it in a rush, it was inside the mouse and they picked the wrong one up  Not that it makes a huge difference but I wanted to show it.

The other thing is, I am considering not doing the optical switches and scroll wheel. I like them for lots of reasons, but I have two issues with them:
- The switches, compared to Omron, have more pretravel, and are louder and stiffer. Its not huge, but before, the potentially longer lifespan was winning me over to them. But now I know the reason for the failing D2FC-F-K(50M) is most likely the lack of proper pullup resistors, I think they'll be ok.
- The scroll wheel encoder, even though it says it has a 1.74mm socket, and the factory said their scroll wheel was 1.76mm, their scroll is coming out more like 1.72, so it feels loose. Not hugely, but I don't really like it or see the point in staying with optical if the F-Switch mechanical works fine.

I think its a shame, because its cool to have optical components...  But if they aren't as good, then they aren't as good. Also its not a big deal to change them at all, so thats not a concern.

Finally I have been looking at the shell and where things are with it. For the most part, its really nice. There are no nasty sink marks, scratches, or deformations. The mouse buttons feel good, they still need the bounce back limiter but actually they're good without it. They're still adjusting things though, they just keep gradually adding small amounts and testing, then repeating, and testing. So at the moment the things that need more adjustment are:

- The adjustable sensor's teeth need to be made larger, at the moment they're quite well below what I made in CAD. But I understand they're just being cautious. If they make them too large, theres no way to make them smaller again.
- The front and rear clips for the side panels aren't finished, and that is interacting with the next thing...
- The top cover clips on too tightly, and causes the front of the side panels to bow out. This is kind of expected, because when a clip is made, you have to make it too small, and then enlarge it, because if you make it too large, you can't make it smaller again.
- The side button holes, where they snap onto the side panels (like Lego), are too small. Again its expected, if they were made too large, theres no way to make them smaller again.
- The scroll wheel holder needs to be made narrower to hold it in place more accurately. What is happening at the moment is, the scroll wheel slides over to the right, and rests against the top shell of the mouse, making it hard to click (because the top shell is very solid, no give). What it needs to do is not be allowed to come in contact with the top shell. This is pretty easy since its just carving out a little bit extra on the mold, and again, normal procedure (if you made it too narrow at first, you can't widen it again).

The shell is overall looking very good, it feels really solid, despite it needing adjustment. The weight is pretty good, about 78g when everything is installed, its more than I wanted, but it does feel very light. The reason it weighs a little more than originally planned, was they had to thicken some of the walls up, or there would have been surface imperfections (when you have features on the other side of a wall, it can produce indents called sink marks on the opposite side).

Last thing is the mouse feet, they're not bad. The edges aren't rounded, but they aren't sharp either. They need to be reduced in size a bit, so I'll ask again about the rounded edges.

I've attached some photos, bear in mind the shell isn't really photo-ready yet though. Also, I painted them, so the paint job is not going to be as bad as that, I just wanted to see what it'd look like (the shells came in plain black plastic).


----------



## gipetto

mechanical buttons and wheel are ok in my book, as they can be repaired easily, though I hope you dont use the awful chinese omrons. This site recommends using 10k pullups on the wheel encoder. Git er done.

http://henrysbench.capnfatz.com/hen...es-ky-040-arduino-rotary-encoder-user-manual/

edit: is there any way you could use a strong plastic for the wheel to avoid the finalmouse issue with axles breaking?


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> mechanical buttons and wheel are ok in my book, as they can be repaired easily, though I hope you dont use the awful chinese omrons. This site recommends using 10k pullups on the wheel encoder. Git er done.
> 
> http://henrysbench.capnfatz.com/hen...es-ky-040-arduino-rotary-encoder-user-manual/
> 
> edit: is there any way you could use a strong plastic for the wheel to avoid the finalmouse issue with axles breaking?


I think it might have to be Chinese Omrons, probably the 50M ones. I don't have any problem with the feel of them. The factory told me the Japanese Omrons have a month lead time which is not good :/

I have to look at the F-Switch datasheet to find the correct pullup to use, depends how much current it needs.

The scroll wheel plastic is nylon, I think the FM wheels were ABS, which is a lot softer and weaker. I remember I wanted to use a white tinted plastic with the Venator when it was in development (because, its better at diffusing the LED light), but they warned me it'd be weaker so I stuck with the clear nylon.


----------



## Klopfer

yea clear nylon is stronger then white or blacked ... 
know that too good from Darts


----------



## gipetto

what about huano switches or kailh gm4? the gm4 have a reputation as good as the japanese omrons.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Everything about the Optical scroll wheel switches sound amazing besides maybe the pre travel. (I actualy realy like the FK scroll wheel. LUL)


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> what about huano switches or kailh gm4? the gm4 have a reputation as good as the japanese omrons.


Oh yeah, I forgot about the Kailh GM4's, didn't get round to trying them yet. I've sent a message to the factory asking if they can get them.


----------



## Klopfer

btw for me the F-Switch is nearly as good as an Alps , a lil bit "weaker" , but much better then e.g. Kailh, TTC MWheel Encoder


----------



## bst

0mega1Spawn said:


> Everything about the Optical scroll wheel switches sound amazing besides maybe the pre travel. (I actualy realy like the FK scroll wheel. LUL)


Me too, its a shame, but I can't ignore that the Omrons feel better. I don't really have any problem with the encoders feel or quality, its just that I'd have to make more tooling for a larger scroll wheel to make it work well. But I only really added the encoder because there was no reason not to, since it had optical switches, it matched nicely.

I've never had an encoder break on me, switches seem to be much more prone to failures (I know encoders can fail, it just seems to be much, much rarer). So if I use mechanical switches, theres no real need to keep it optical, and its not like F-Switch don't make really nice encoders 

I probably would have stuck with optical if the root of why mechanical switches have been failing on a lot of mice hadn't been discovered. Also, its one of those things, if optical didn't exist, I probably would have found out about the pull up resistor anyway, since I go over every inch of the datasheets


----------



## bst

Klopfer said:


> btw for me the F-Switch is nearly as good as an Alps , a lil bit "weaker" , but much better then e.g. Kailh, TTC MWheel Encoder


There is a better F-Switch encoder which I don't think anyone has used in a gaming mouse yet (not that I've seen anyway), I wanted to use it in the Venator, but because it was more tactile, it was really noisy in that shell (pretty much the same with Alps, they need to go in a well designed shell). I will probably use that one in the Astrum, I've already tried it and it works nicely. It has a grey colour to it instead of brown, if you want to try and find one (I have no idea where they can be bought unfortunately, factory secret  ).


----------



## lurkerguy

Thanks for the update. 78g is good, can't reasonably expect it to be lower than that for a modular mouse and I believe the skeleton inside the mouse makes it feel lighter than other mice of the same weight due to better weight distribution?

A shame about the switches, was looking forward to try out the optical switches for the first time with this mouse but if they aren't of the same quality than Omrons then there's nothing you can do about it. Do look into the new Kailh switches if you can get hold of those.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

welp if 78g is too much for u well we gonna drill some hole i guess or 3d print our own parts to make it light


----------



## bst

Yeah, it does feel a lot lighter than 78g, weight distribution is really good, and grip. Maybe the cable helps as well. The Venator definitely feels heavier even though its the same weight, maybe because its a little back heavy.

I have designed a mouse which is under 50g. Just waiting for the Astrum to finish before I show it, I wanted to be making that one by now  Oh well


----------



## a_ak57

Not too long ago the WMO was considered a light mouse, so I don't think the weight is a big deal. Sad to hear about the optical switches since I probably won't end up trying some otherwise. I think if you're not gonna use Japanese Omrons then the Kailhs would be the way to go; I like them anyway.


----------



## Avalar

Buttons are the #1, maybe #2, priority for me, so I don't mind however long it takes to get those sorted out. ^-^


----------



## Tobzeh

*Contributed/Ordered a plain white astrum. Any chance i can 'upgrade' to a coloured one?*

Hey bst, as the title says, i ordered/contributed to your innovative mouse creation a while back (maybe like 2 months ago) and am just realizing how much i would rather obtain a coloured astrum due to its limited edition linked to the indiegogo page. Thanks, i hope you can help.


----------



## winz0r

Is that huge pcb with the side buttons on the last pic removable to reduce weight? Or is it necessary to put it back together?

Any other way to reduce weight?


----------



## winz0r

Is it just me or the buttons look *really* long? Perhaps a bit too long to be optimal?


----------



## gipetto

i was looking at the rgb code. Is this a bug? shouldnt there be 5 zeros or ones for the 5 buttons instead of 4?
const uint8_t btn_unpressed = PIND & (~(EIFR) | 0b00110000);
EIFR = 0b00001111; // clear EIFR


----------



## Yahar

Optical Switches/Wheel were one of the main selling point for the mouse myself. Is the 78g weight for Alpha shape? 

I'm pretty disappointed. It was a unique mouse. I wanted optical switches and optical wheel for low latency and long lifespan and reliability. Now it has mechanical switches and even more weight.

How does it differ now from Glorious Model O, does it differ enough? Model O is cheaper and lighter.

Try to do Optical switches atleast even if it weights more now and maybe 3389, please. 

This coming from day 1 backer on KS


----------



## bst

Tobzeh said:


> Hey bst, as the title says, i ordered/contributed to your innovative mouse creation a while back (maybe like 2 months ago) and am just realizing how much i would rather obtain a coloured astrum due to its limited edition linked to the indiegogo page. Thanks, i hope you can help.


Can do it, but its not straight forward, you have to send a bank transfer payment to my account, and then I'll manually change the order sheet (so, you won't see the change take place on Indiegogo). PM me if you want to go ahead and I'll let you know the bank details.



winz0r said:


> Is that huge pcb with the side buttons on the last pic removable to reduce weight? Or is it necessary to put it back together?
> 
> Any other way to reduce weight?


It needs that PCB, the only way to reduce weight is to put holes in the plastic panels, either by 3D printing new ones, or drilling holes. You could maybe drill some holes in the PCB as well, just need to be careful not to hit any traces.



winz0r said:


> Is it just me or the buttons look *really* long? Perhaps a bit too long to be optimal?


They're about 5mm longer than G-pro (not GPW) buttons, I guess they look long because they aren't slanted like those ones. They feel fine anyway, remember, mouse buttons that aren't separated are much longer usually, so its not that uncommon really. Why are they like that? Because it suits a lot of grips. If your grip means your fingers are quite far back, you don't want to be near the actual separation line, because its much harder to click there, and if your grip puts your fingers quite far forwards, you still have the button support underneath.



gipetto said:


> i was looking at the rgb code. Is this a bug? shouldnt there be 5 zeros or ones for the 5 buttons instead of 4?
> const uint8_t btn_unpressed = PIND & (~(EIFR) | 0b00110000);
> EIFR = 0b00001111; // clear EIFR


It think its ok, as far as I remember, EIFR only works for 4 buttons (there are only 4 interrupt pins on the MCU), so its just adding 00110000 to 00001111 to get 00111111, 6th button is the DPI.


----------



## iBerggman

I'm surprised no one has asked this yet but do you have any common mice around that you could take a side by side picture of, something from Zowie or Logitech would be ideal since most people have used those? I think the shape makes it look a lot bigger than it really is, especially in the renders, so a real comparison would be great to sort that out.


----------



## bst

iBerggman said:


> I'm surprised no one has asked this yet but do you have any common mice around that you could take a side by side picture of, something from Zowie or Logitech would be ideal since most people have used those? I think the shape makes it look a lot bigger than it really is, especially in the renders, so a real comparison would be great to sort that out.


I think I did take some but it was quite a while ago. I'll take some more. Also see the attached pics, the WMO 3D scan is red, and the Astrum (beta shape) is in transparent/wireframe.


----------



## lurkerguy

Damn, that's almost an exact replica minus the buttons. I need this mouse more than ever now since the right click of my WMO started acting up.


----------



## ewiggle

bst said:


> But now I know the reason for the failing D2FC-F-K(50M) is most likely the lack of proper pullup resistors, I think they'll be ok.


This makes me a little nervous. I know the guy over here (



) talked about the pull-up resister but -- well what makes me nervous is swapping out optical switches, a relatively sure deal that they won't double click (right?), based on a theory (isn't it a theory?) that pull-up resisters will fix failing omrons. What if it doesn't fix it? Have you tested out the theory, like really tested, to make sure the fix is really a *fix*?

Imuh back the mouse either way but I just wanted to share my feels.


----------



## winz0r

bst said:


> It needs that PCB.


----------



## gipetto

@ewiggle nobody here has tested it because that would take years, but all he is doing is replicating the circuit of old mice like the mx518 that never developed double click. It is only in modern times that manufacturers have cut corners so much with pullups. Of course, if the design used an sr latch then that would get around the lack of i/o pins for hardware debouncing, but space on the pcb is at a premium.


----------



## cbfs360

bst said:


> There is a better F-Switch encoder which I don't think anyone has used in a gaming mouse yet (not that I've seen anyway), I wanted to use it in the Venator, but because it was more tactile, it was really noisy in that shell (pretty much the same with Alps, they need to go in a well designed shell). I will probably use that one in the Astrum, I've already tried it and it works nicely. It has a grey colour to it instead of brown, if you want to try and find one (I have no idea where they can be bought unfortunately, factory secret  ).


atm I saw only three colors brown, black, grey

like this ?
mouse: 贱驴 325RS


----------



## Conditioned

Any chance to get the exact dimensions like this? https://imgur.com/gallery/SqLYgT2

I don't need a pic, just the numbers would be appreciated!


----------



## bst

ewiggle said:


> This makes me a little nervous. I know the guy over here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5BhECVlKJA) talked about the pull-up resister but -- well what makes me nervous is swapping out optical switches, a relatively sure deal that they won't double click (right?), based on a theory (isn't it a theory?) that pull-up resisters will fix failing omrons. What if it doesn't fix it? Have you tested out the theory, like really tested, to make sure the fix is really a *fix*?
> 
> Imuh back the mouse either way but I just wanted to share my feels.


Well optical switches can fail, they still have a lifespan.

I think a combination of using switches like the GM4 which has quality materials, and using external pull ups, will work very well. He does go into a lot of details in the video, and it all makes sense. Switches only recently started having this problem, switches in older mice did used to last for ages, and the only thing that changed was the MCUs. Even the old mice weren't really designed perfectly though.

Also I have put in overtravel protection, which a lot of mice don't have, that will help even more with the lifespan.

The thing is, at the end of the day, I don't think people will care if the optical switches last forever, if they aren't nice to use. Also, its not that difficult to replace switches in the Astrum, since the PCBs they sit on are separate to the other boards. So maybe I'll even make some alternative boards you can mod in, I'll keep the 5V going through the cables so you can use optical if you want to, and I'll share the PCB design for it.



winz0r said:


>


I am going to supply the designs for some lightweight shells for the Astrum, which you can 3D print on 3D Hubs. They just clip onto the astrum by pushing them down onto it, and removes about 12g, so the mouse weight comes down to about 66g. So if you don't mind holes, there you go  See the attached pic (that isn't how it'll actually look because I made that one fast just to get an idea of the weight saving, it'll look cooler in the final version).



cbfs360 said:


> atm I saw only three colors brown, black, grey
> 
> like this ?
> mouse: 贱驴 325RS


Yep, looks like that's the one.




Conditioned said:


> Any chance to get the exact dimensions like this? https://imgur.com/gallery/SqLYgT2
> 
> I don't need a pic, just the numbers would be appreciated!


Length: 132.7mm
Height: 39.6mm
Width: Alpha: 58mm / Beta: 66.5mm / Beta Ergo: 73mm


----------



## MentalOutOnline

did bst just leak the glorious model N???!!!! XDXDXDXDXDXD


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Wouldn't a honeycomb pattern be better?


----------



## vanir1337

bst said:


> Also I have put in overtravel protection, which a lot of mice don't have, that will help even more with the lifespan.
> 
> The thing is, at the end of the day, I don't think people will care if the optical switches last forever, if they aren't nice to use. Also, its not that difficult to replace switches in the Astrum, since the PCBs they sit on are separate to the other boards. So maybe I'll even make some alternative boards you can mod in, I'll keep the 5V going through the cables so you can use optical if you want to, and I'll share the PCB design for it.


You're the best!


----------



## Conditioned

bst said:


> Length: 132.7mm
> Height: 39.6mm
> Width: Alpha: 58mm / Beta: 66.5mm / Beta Ergo: 73mm




Thanks. Does this mean you will actually make holes in the shell? Iirc you said you'd never do that.


----------



## Straifer

Conditioned said:


> Thanks. Does this mean you will actually make holes in the shell? Iirc you said you'd never do that.


His post on the last page is saying he would make available some basic "lightweight" designs for people to 3D print themselves, the image he attached was a example.


----------



## Yahar

So what will the Debounce delay be like for the switches (GM4), and for Scrolling? What about the Release delay? I bought the mouse for optical switches so I could click M1/M2 at the same time. 
For example Logitech mice have 20ms delay on release. You had 50ms release on Ninox Aurora.. For my use case that's too much.
What about scrolling? What's the F-Switch like? How many notches and how often does it recognize scrolls if it has to debounce? Especially if debounce release delay is long, the scrolling will suck.
I really hate mechanical encoders. Wish you could do Optical one.


----------



## qsxcv

iirc:
my code used 16ms delay on release. not sure if bst changed it
for mechanical encoders, there is built in hysteresis which eliminates the need for any sort of debouncing. for my code, the state of the wheel is sampled as often as everything else (so 8khz)


----------



## bst

0mega1Spawn said:


> Wouldn't a honeycomb pattern be better?


Probably, but it takes longer to do, that picture was just a test to see roughly how much weight putting holes in it would save. In CAD you can tell it what plastic it'll be made of, and it'll tell you how much it'll weigh. Its like I said, it will look cooler when I do it properly.



Yahar said:


> So what will the Debounce delay be like for the switches (GM4), and for Scrolling? What about the Release delay? I bought the mouse for optical switches so I could click M1/M2 at the same time.
> For example Logitech mice have 20ms delay on release. You had 50ms release on Ninox Aurora.. For my use case that's too much.
> What about scrolling? What's the F-Switch like? How many notches and how often does it recognize scrolls if it has to debounce? Especially if debounce release delay is long, the scrolling will suck.
> I really hate mechanical encoders. Wish you could do Optical one.


Optical still needs debouncing, not as much as mechanical, but still about 5ms.

Release delay is adjustable in the software, the default will be 10ms though, so 1/100th of a second.

I didn't want 50ms on the Aurora, that was the factory's mistake, they changed it after I signed off the mouse. I didn't actually notice it until it was already delivered. Yes, I know, its stupid.

F-Switch has 24 steps. Its a really nice scroll wheel. You know the optical wheel I was using is pretty much like a mechanical anyway, I don't really think you'd be able to tell any difference tbh.


----------



## Yahar

Okay, thanks for the info both of you. That sounds alot better. 10ms doesn't sound bad for release delay. Still using qsxcv's fw?


----------



## popups

I would like the software to allow me to change the values of the debouncing and release times from 0 to whatever. I don't see why this is not something companies want to do. Only a few companies, like small Chinese, allow this.

I do like that you are going back to the normal switches. The optical versions didn't allow for swapping out to other components.

I didn't even know you where making right side buttons, I thought it was only left side. Are you making the side button/MCU PCB in a way where I could dremel the right side buttons off to save weight like I did to my FK? It would be cool if the PCB could connect through a cable and you could just have a tiny MCU board.

What about the 3389 sensor over the 336*? The mouse won't be done for awhile.

Is the next mouse going to reuse the main structure of the Astrum? I am not a fan of the Astrum's shape because it's almost a clone of the WMO, which I think should be improved upon.

Offering various panels for 3D printing would be a decent compromise for not having them in the box. You could have a panel that will allow you to put some weights in it for those who like a heavy mouse. You can offer a panel that has holes for those that like light mice. There is a lot of possibilities, though not the best of quality compared to doing it at the factory.


----------



## qsxcv

fyi 3389 apparently is lower max framerate (~7500) than 3360

see bottom of this thread
https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...aximums-either-8500-11500-a.html#post27922670


----------



## bst

Yahar said:


> Okay, thanks for the info both of you. That sounds alot better. 10ms doesn't sound bad for release delay. Still using qsxcv's fw?


Yes it uses qsxcv's firmware as a base, so it has the same button code, scroll wheel code, and usb transmission code.



popups said:


> I would like the software to allow me to change the values of the debouncing and release times from 0 to whatever. I don't see why this is not something companies want to do. Only a few companies, like small Chinese, allow this.
> 
> I do like that you are going back to the normal switches. The optical versions didn't allow for swapping out to other components.
> 
> I didn't even know you where making right side buttons, I thought it was only left side. Are you making the side button/MCU PCB in a way where I could dremel the right side buttons off to save weight like I did to my FK? It would be cool if the PCB could connect through a cable and you could just have a tiny MCU board.
> 
> What about the 3389 sensor over the 336*? The mouse won't be done for awhile.
> 
> Is the next mouse going to reuse the main structure of the Astrum? I am not a fan of the Astrum's shape because it's almost a clone of the WMO, which I think should be improved upon.
> 
> Offering various panels for 3D printing would be a decent compromise for not having them in the box. You could have a panel that will allow you to put some weights in it for those who like a heavy mouse. You can offer a panel that has holes for those that like light mice. There is a lot of possibilities, though not the best of quality compared to doing it at the factory.


You'll be able to set the debounce in the software. Default is 10, you can set 0-30.

You could cut down the PCB if you didn't want side buttons, but traces run from the MCU at the back to connectors at the front, for the front buttons and scroll. There is also an LED there for the wheel. But as long as you're careful, and avoid the traces, you could dremel out some of it.

I have to check about the 3389, it might be more easily available now. Its easy to fit, no PCB changes, just need to adjust the way DPI works in the FW and software, which is easy.

Next mouse doesn't use anything from the Astrum, except its PCB circuit (but, in its own shape), MCU & FW. Its not a modular mouse, its just a small lightweight mouse. It has separated buttons, comfort grooves, and no holes. Its just a nice mouse that I think a lot of people would like.

Yeah I'll make different panels, and people can make their own of course. I'll make the lightweight holed ones for sure, and just see what people ask for most after that.


----------



## Avalar

Can't wait for the smaller Astrum.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> I have designed a mouse which is under 50g. Just waiting for the Astrum to finish before I show it, I wanted to be making that one by now  Oh well





bst said:


> Next mouse doesn't use anything from the Astrum, except its PCB circuit (but, in its own shape), MCU & FW. Its not a modular mouse, its just a small lightweight mouse. It has separated buttons, comfort grooves, and no holes. Its just a nice mouse that I think a lot of people would like.


When you say comfort grooves, do you mean on m1 & m2, or on the sides as well? This is the mouse that, as you know by now, I'm most anxious for - but just hoping you're still planning on the straight and flat sides |__|

... and under 50g? I love you, bst.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Never used a mouse at 50g, so I'd probably get one anyway, but would there be a way to get the same shape at around 70 to 80g? That's where I like it, at least.


----------



## Klopfer

Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Never used a mouse at 50g, so I'd probably get one anyway, but would there be a way to get the same shape at around 70 to 80g? That's where I like it, at least.


use glue and put weights inside urself


----------



## MentalOutOnline

50g mouse and i expect some side button


----------



## winz0r

bst said:


> Next mouse doesn't use anything from the Astrum, except its PCB circuit (but, in its own shape), MCU & FW. Its not a modular mouse, its just a small lightweight mouse. It has separated buttons, comfort grooves, and no holes. Its just a nice mouse that I think a lot of people would like.


Sounds good, looking forward to that one. The market is saturated with medium/large mice with no love towards small lightweight ones. Most of the brands seem to associate small with cheap and therefore low quality overall. It's frustrating 

Will it have side buttons? Does comfort grooves mean no flat sides?

I'd really love to see a high quality successor of this godly shape that is the MX300/G1/G100S. It's mind boggling to me that this hasn't been done yet.

Cheers.


----------



## Avalar

Klopfer said:


> use glue and put weights inside urself


;0 Or, even better idea. Ninox could be the first company to make a weight-adjustable mouse that _actually starts at a low weight_.


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> small lightweight mouse. It has separated buttons, comfort grooves, and no holes


yesssssss

the hole thing is absolutely hideous and disgusting and completely unnecessary (even if a design with holes is more rigid than a flat design with the same weight, just imagine filling in the holes with thin flat areas)

btw bst you might have already considered this but it is very important to have a light and flexible cable for light mice.


----------



## lurkerguy

I will prob have to get that mouse as well, but if you make it really small I hope you use button overhang there as well so that people can palm it.

Agree on holes, they are completely useless for reducing weight and the only reason it became a fad is because FinalMouse is too lazy to design their own mice and it's the easiest way to drop weight from OEM shells.


----------



## 0mega1Spawn

Holes will still reduce weight further.
Even with the Astrum it could still be reduced by ~6 grams.


----------



## Yahar

qsxcv said:


> fyi 3389 apparently is lower max framerate (~7500) than 3360
> 
> see bottom of this thread
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...aximums-either-8500-11500-a.html#post27922670


I think this should be researched further. If this is true then 3360 might be a better option. Also to check why certain 336x mice have 8500 vs 11500, and whether its configurable in fw, and could be guaranteed for the Astrum.
Although I've read many have said 3389 feels snappier/faster than 336x, but what is true?


----------



## Avalar

lurkerguy said:


> I will prob have to get that mouse as well, but if you make it really small I hope you use button overhang there as well so that people can palm it.


Thiiiiiiis.


----------



## bst

MattKelly said:


> When you say comfort grooves, do you mean on m1 & m2, or on the sides as well? This is the mouse that, as you know by now, I'm most anxious for - but just hoping you're still planning on the straight and flat sides |__|
> 
> ... and under 50g? I love you, bst.


Just m1 & m2, the sides are flat.



Avalar said:


> @bst
> 
> Never used a mouse at 50g, so I'd probably get one anyway, but would there be a way to get the same shape at around 70 to 80g? That's where I like it, at least.


Maybe, I'll give it a go, but this is directed at people that like small, light, simple mice. I don't really know how I could make a weight system that would be elegant and work well, there just isn't much to work with, because of the size and weight constraints. The only thing I can think of is to offer a 3D file you can print, like a coin holder that you can fit inside the mouse to increase its weight.



MentalOutOnline said:


> 50g mouse and i expect some side button


It has two on the left side of the mouse, and a button behind the scroll wheel.



winz0r said:


> I'd really love to see a high quality successor of this godly shape that is the MX300/G1/G100S. It's mind boggling to me that this hasn't been done yet.


See above for answers to your other question.

Its not like a MX300/G1/G100S. Depends though 
I'm going to give this one a go, its part of a range of lightweight mice, I want to do more shapes like those, and Venator etc. If I got like $160k on the crowd fund I could make all three of those shapes (but, their release would be staggered).



qsxcv said:


> yesssssss
> 
> the hole thing is absolutely hideous and disgusting and completely unnecessary (even if a design with holes is more rigid than a flat design with the same weight, just imagine filling in the holes with thin flat areas)
> 
> btw bst you might have already considered this but it is very important to have a light and flexible cable for light mice.


I agree with you on the holes. I don't mind making the shells with holes for 3D prints, but I don't like the idea of making molds for mice with holes.

Yes, got a lightweight / flexible cord. Motospeed improved their braiding, now its more like a paracord. I think someone posted a mouse based on the V70 on reddit with it.
Can see it in this pic: https://snag.gy/1Eeg8C.jpg



lurkerguy said:


> I will prob have to get that mouse as well, but if you make it really small I hope you use button overhang there as well so that people can palm it.


It doesn't have overhang, but it curves down at the front like a WMO, which makes them effectively longer. 



Yahar said:


> I think this should be researched further. If this is true then 3360 might be a better option. Also to check why certain 336x mice have 8500 vs 11500, and whether its configurable in fw, and could be guaranteed for the Astrum.
> Although I've read many have said 3389 feels snappier/faster than 336x, but what is true?


Afaik the 3360 and 3389 are almost identical, just maybe some improvements to... the processor... the camera... idk. But they are very similar. I have two SROMs for the 3389, maybe one of them has higher FPS. It probably doesn't matter anyway though, odds are I'll be sticking with the 3360, I just haven't asked about the 3389 yet, when I do, and if its availability has improved, I will look into it more.


----------



## Ukkooh

How far is the design process on your lighter small mouse? Your Aurora with better clicks, cable and sensor is all I need for my endgame. If it is anything close I'll have to buy at least two of those too.


----------



## a_ak57

So how small are we talking with the new mouse, Mico/LMO size or maybe shell-less G9?


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> Just m1 & m2, the sides are flat.


Really happy to hear that, thanks bst. Are you able to comment on the dimensions in a bit more detail? I'm not sure how much you remember this post from a while back (talking about the Astrum S and getting its size in line with other classic small mice: https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...x-astrum-swapable-shells-72.html#post27374785) but I'd love to know where your new mouse comes in regarding all this


----------



## Rhys7

do we have any idea when the mouse will be done?


----------



## James N

Rhys7 said:


> do we have any idea when the mouse will be done?


No one, not even BST can tell at this moment. Sometime this year.


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> Yes, got a lightweight / flexible cord. Motospeed improved their braiding, now its more like a paracord. I think someone posted a mouse based on the V70 on reddit with it.
> Can see it in this pic: https://snag.gy/1Eeg8C.jpg


imo braiding never helps, unless the bare cable is too rubbery in which case braiding might reduce "floppiness"

how does your cable compare against these?
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00446/T1311-1-ND/5819495
unbraided razer deathadder cable
new logitech cables (e.g. g pro hero, unbraided g502 hero)

these 3 are imo the best cables

and all of them have shielding. tensility one and razer one have spiral (not braided) shields. not sure about logitech, but i'd guess similar


----------



## bst

a_ak57 said:


> So how small are we talking with the new mouse, Mico/LMO size or maybe shell-less G9?


Its a similar size to a Kinzu. I don't really want to say much more about it yet though 



qsxcv said:


> imo braiding never helps, unless the bare cable is too rubbery in which case braiding might reduce "floppiness"
> 
> how does your cable compare against these?
> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/30-00446/T1311-1-ND/5819495
> unbraided razer deathadder cable
> new logitech cables (e.g. g pro hero, unbraided g502 hero)
> 
> these 3 are imo the best cables
> 
> and all of them have shielding. tensility one and razer one have spiral (not braided) shields. not sure about logitech, but i'd guess similar


I think the braiding is ok, when it has a shield inside along with a rubber sleeve, it makes them stiff and drag along the pad, but when they don't have that, they're good IMO. This one doesn't chafe on the desk/pad or anything.

I looked into the USB 2 specs, I don't think hardly any mice meet the cable shielding recommendations. Its meant to be braided wire over foil shield. Most have spiral wire over foil, or braided or spiral on its own. You can't have any gaps in shielding, if it does, then you might as well not bother. I think mice just don't emit much EMI so they pretty much always pass no matter what, unless it has a really badly designed PCB. So I think theres no point in the shield, if it passes its EMI tests without one, then I'm pretty sure it'll be fine.

I haven't tried those cables you mentioned, but the unshielded braided cable is very flexible and light. I've tried the G203 cable, its a lot more flexible and lighter than that.

I could use unshielded rubber, but it seems most people don't want it, they want the braided, I guess because its more flexible, when the cable bends it has to stretch on one side and compress on the other side, braided handles that a lot better.


----------



## Tazzzz

I think 133 mm is too long for fingertip grip. Rocket jump ninja says there should be 2 to 1 ratio for a perfect mouse. I think i agree with him. Adjustable sensor position is really cool though.


----------



## a_ak57

Mouse dimensions should not be looked at in a vacuum. The Beta Astrum shape is just an WMO with button overhang at the front. And mouse width depends pretty greatly on whether you're talking about the grip width or the raw widest part, which for most mice would the the back end. For instance, the Alpha Astrum shape has a grip width of 58mm which is the same as the Beta/WMO version, but the WMO version's width is listed at 67.5mm because of the back end flaring out, while the Alpha's does not.


----------



## bst

Tazzzz said:


> I think 133 mm is too long for fingertip grip. Rocket jump ninja says there should be 2 to 1 ratio for a perfect mouse. I think i agree with him. Adjustable sensor position is really cool though.


It pretty much is a 2 to 1 ratio, it just has 1cm of button overhang. You can't get all the info from dimensions, what he's saying is a very simplified, rough, and general rule, which doesn't account for mice like the Astrum.


----------



## vanir1337

Tazzzz said:


> Rocket jump ninja says there should be 2 to 1 ratio for a perfect mouse.


lul


----------



## Tazzzz

bst said:


> It pretty much is a 2 to 1 ratio, it just has 1cm of button overhang. You can't get all the info from dimensions, what he's saying is a very simplified, rough, and general rule, which doesn't account for mice like the Astrum.


you could get lots of extra sales, lol


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> I think the braiding is ok, when it has a shield inside along with a rubber sleeve, it makes them stiff and drag along the pad, but when they don't have that, they're good IMO. This one doesn't chafe on the desk/pad or anything.
> 
> I looked into the USB 2 specs, I don't think hardly any mice meet the cable shielding recommendations. Its meant to be braided wire over foil shield. Most have spiral wire over foil, or braided or spiral on its own. You can't have any gaps in shielding, if it does, then you might as well not bother. I think mice just don't emit much EMI so they pretty much always pass no matter what, unless it has a really badly designed PCB. So I think theres no point in the shield, if it passes its EMI tests without one, then I'm pretty sure it'll be fine.
> 
> I haven't tried those cables you mentioned, but the unshielded braided cable is very flexible and light. I've tried the G203 cable, its a lot more flexible and lighter than that.
> 
> I could use unshielded rubber, but it seems most people don't want it, they want the braided, I guess because its more flexible, when the cable bends it has to stretch on one side and compress on the other side, braided handles that a lot better.


i see, didn't realize you had in mind braided without rubber and without shield.

btw i've probably mentioned in the past, but you should figure out your usb vendor id:
in my firmware, i've always just copied PJRC's:
#define VENDOR_ID 0x16C0
#define PRODUCT_ID 0x047E

i don't know whether there might be legal issues with using PJRC's


----------



## bst

qsxcv said:


> i see, didn't realize you had in mind braided without rubber and without shield.
> 
> btw i've probably mentioned in the past, but you should figure out your usb vendor id:
> in my firmware, i've always just copied PJRC's:
> #define VENDOR_ID 0x16C0
> #define PRODUCT_ID 0x047E
> 
> i don't know whether there might be legal issues with using PJRC's


Thanks, I sorted that out surprisingly easily, I'm using a Microchip VID/PID, I found out that you can request (a unique) one if you're using their product. I know its not the best way, but it works, and saves $5000 lol.


----------



## Yahar

bst, could you add sensor feet to the mouse, so as to keep the dpi error to minimum when using cloth pad?


----------



## 508859

Tazzzz said:


> Rocket jump ninja says there should be 2 to 1 ratio for a perfect mouse.


how do you force yourself to care what he says?


----------



## the1freeMan

numberfive said:


> how do you force yourself to care what he says?


How does rjn force himself to be so idiotic I wonder even more. He actually measures the thumb in hand measurements too, maybe his is not opposable?


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

numberfive said:


> how do you force yourself to care what he says?





the1freeMan said:


> How does rjn force himself to be so idiotic I wonder even more. He actually measures the thumb in hand measurements too, maybe his is not opposable?


not to make this thread about RJN but I heard you could find a lot of his stupidity on this forum from long ago I can't seem to find it, any of this true? Just a quick answer doesnt need a long discussion


----------



## cdcd

-1nf1n1ty- said:


> not to make this thread about RJN but I heard you could find a lot of his stupidity on this forum from long ago I can't seem to find it, any of this true? Just a quick answer doesnt need a long discussion


 Here you go: https://www.overclock.net/forum/search.php?searchid=8325502

Several of his posts have been deleted either by himself or others though.


----------



## Tazzzz

numberfive said:


> how do you force yourself to care what he says?


Just wanted to say there is no mouse atm optimized for fingertip grip with small decent shape like aurora but sensor toward the front. g pro shape is just weird. As far as i remember Rjn has Zowie s2 on top of his list so as far as i understand, it's pretty much it: small mouse, good shape but with middle sensor pos. I dont really care what he says but he used a lot of mice and has a huge follower base. If bst decides to release a proper fingertip mouse then it's a fact to consider. May be astrum is just for claw/palm, not for fingertip, idk didn't read the whole thread.


----------



## pez

bst said:


> Its a similar size to a Kinzu. I don't really want to say much more about it yet though
> *snip*


Uhhhhh....yes please. The Kinzu v2 had to be the biggest love-hate relationship I've ever had with a mouse in my life. If it had the option for a side button or two I'd be happy as well, but I'd be happy for just a good version of that mouse to exist.


----------



## bst

Today the factory had an engineer from the optical switch factory in, and we talked about what I thought of them, he said they can customise them for me. We went through the details like pre-travel, operating force, release force and so on. He's going to send me some soon, will see what they're like compared with the GM4's and D2F's. Hopefully they can get them feeling like those, if they can, I'll stick with the opticals


----------



## lurkerguy

That's cool, lets hope they can make them feel good


----------



## gipetto

That's going over and beyond good service for a small company like yourself. you said before you would go optical wheel and main switches if at all. has that policy changed now that the wheel is loose on the shaft?


----------



## popups

I like a high return force and a low actuation force. I don't think the standard design can produce such a thing. I also like the contact design of the Japanese Omrons for the feedback, but the average person does not like loud switches or scroll wheels.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> That's going over and beyond good service for a small company like yourself. you said before you would go optical wheel and main switches if at all. has that policy changed now that the wheel is loose on the shaft?


I'm not sure about the scroll wheel encoder, they know I want a smaller socket, but they didn't give me an answer on it yet. They were mostly talking about the switches. I will have an answer soon though.



popups said:


> I like a high return force and a low actuation force. I don't think the standard design can produce such a thing. I also like the contact design of the Japanese Omrons for the feedback, but the average person does not like loud switches or scroll wheels.


The thing with the optical switches I didn't like, is they are quite hard to click, like twice as hard as D2FC 50m's, and theres more pre travel. So if you try to click fast in a row, you end up squishing up and down in the pre-travel zone quite a bit. So the main thing I want them to fix is the pre-travel, and if they can, make them lighter, but without losing their tactility. If they can do that, then they'll feel great.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I'm not sure about the scroll wheel encoder, they know I want a smaller socket, but they didn't give me an answer on it yet. They were mostly talking about the switches. I will have an answer soon though.


Tell THEM to use any model of ALPs encoder, now :teaching: .

Don't leave it up to them to choose, remember they'll use what is in stock on their shelves, which is always something cheap and nasty beyond words.

Simply let them know what YOU want and it's their job to find it and install it into your design. Accept nothing less otherwise it becomes another failed release in a long line a possible winners let down with faulty and degraded 'scrollers' of questionable quality.

Logitech is riding that bus of loser scrollers, don't join them what ever you do.....


----------



## qsxcv

the tightness of the notch on the opposite side of the encoder is probably more important than the brand of encoder...


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> Tell THEM to use any model of ALPs encoder, now :teaching: .
> 
> Don't leave it up to them to choose, remember they'll use what is in stock on their shelves, which is always something cheap and nasty beyond words.
> 
> Simply let them know what YOU want and it's their job to find it and install it into your design. Accept nothing less otherwise it becomes another failed release in a long line a possible winners let down with faulty and degraded 'scrollers' of questionable quality.
> 
> Logitech is riding that bus of loser scrollers, don't join them what ever you do.....


Sorry I was talking about the optical encoder, what I meant was I'm not sure if they can make the smaller hex hole size (1.72mm instead of 1.74mm), I asked them to do it though, so will find out soon. I wouldn't just leave it up to the factory to use whatever they wanted 

If the optical can't have a smaller hex hole, then I'll probably use F-Switch, they do the 1.72mm hex hole. Alps is 1.73 iirc, but I think there is a problem with their lead time like the D2F switches.


----------



## empyr

@*bst* 

Not to put any pressure on you here nor do I want to sound ungrateful for all the work you've done in any way, but.

I'm very curious on how we've gone from a December schedule (I know this was never going to get met, but either way, it was your own personal estimation to begin with).
It seems more and more likely, currently.. that we've got no idea when it will be finished. Yes, i know things take time and things haven't always gone smoothly / has to be changed to make sure the mouse is great, I'm all for that. 

However, there are loads of people that have backed the project, whom do not read this forum and they've yet to be updated on Indiegogo on a new estimation (?), your last update is almost two months ago soon. 

Just my 2 cents. I just want your thoughts on the matter. I apologize if I come across that like a whiny *****, not my intention.


----------



## empyr




----------



## ryan92084

We've just entered the 2-4 month window given in the feb 19th IGG update. FCC testing was delayed because of the wrong pcb being sent? iirc + the switches still being in flux.


----------



## dontspamme

Hoping bst will read this:

*Where can one buy the Ninox Venator these days?*


----------



## gcavazos88

Amazon


----------



## dontspamme

gcavazos88 said:


> Amazon


Sold out in literally every Amazon store on the planet.

Same goes for all the vendors listed on the Ninox website.


----------



## hisXLNC

id be pleasantly surprised if this mouse came out before september


----------



## ewiggle

bst said:


> Today the factory had an engineer from the optical switch factory in, and we talked about what I thought of them, he said they can customise them for me. We went through the details like pre-travel, operating force, release force and so on. He's going to send me some soon, will see what they're like compared with the GM4's and D2F's. Hopefully they can get them feeling like those, if they can, I'll stick with the opticals


I'm hoping that optical wins out. I know you said that people prefer a better feeling *switch* over a worse feeling one, but I gottah say I have never been able to use a mouse and think "yah know, this switch feels bad". I've felt mice that weren't nice to click, basically anything with super flexible shells that feels bendy, and anything that feels mushy, but I've never been able to attribute any of that to a switches feeling. I've used the bloody opticals and those even feel fine to me.

Personally, what I'm looking for is longevity. May my switch live long and not cause me problems! That's what I want. Let's go optical lets go, clap clap. Of course, if you are for sure you can achieve that longevity with mechanically, then whichever, I just hope you're right lol.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

we are kind of reaching the point where I kind of lost patience. I know it's a big project and these things take time, which is why I haven't asked for a refund. But holy hell....I guess I'll just wait some more and hope for the best


----------



## Rhys7

i just need this mouse to release..my huge left hand needs an ergo mouse...


----------



## ncck

This whole modular mouse type project got me reminiscing about the G9X back in the day. I use to randomly swap between the two shells or even no shell lol.

I'm hoping this project goes well!


----------



## Rhys7

waiting for this mouse is like waiting to lose my virginity


----------



## 508859

Rhys7 said:


> waiting for this mouse is like waiting to lose my virginity


lost hope already?


----------



## Rhys7

still waiting..


----------



## MentalOutOnline

This mouse will be out when Half life 3 will be in their development


----------



## Klopfer

MentalOutOnline said:


> This mouse will be out when Half life 3 will be in their development


Half Life 
19. November 1998
Half Life 2 
16. November 2004
Half Life 3 
?? 3xxx


----------



## pr0l4nd

I think that lack of communication only increase problems(history reapeats). Is it hard to do quick update in 5min?


----------



## Blze001

numberfive said:


> lost hope already?


Yikes...


----------



## Leopardi

ncck said:


> This whole modular mouse type project got me reminiscing about the G9X back in the day. I use to randomly swap between the two shells or even no shell lol.
> 
> I'm hoping this project goes well!


And after a couple of swaps the shell became clunky and loose, ruining the feel and I sold it lol.


----------



## Rhys7

pr0l4nd said:


> I think that lack of communication only increase problems(history reapeats). Is it hard to do quick update in 5min?


i agree


----------



## gipetto

I think many of us have come to expect a "state of the nation address" once a week. I have noticed that bst often turns up on sunday. I guess it wouldn't get it built any faster though. I am one of those who helped to delay the project so it would be out of my place for me to complain.


----------



## Avalar

Maybe something bad happened. D;


----------



## pr0l4nd

i meant indiegogo, not everybody check overclock everyday


----------



## Rhys7

my life depends on this mouse...


----------



## Avalar

Rhys7 said:


> my life depends on this mouse...


Same bro.


----------



## gipetto

Don't be such a drama queen. That's the kind of thing teenage girls say to keep their boyfriends. All it does is make everyone disrespect or babysit them. And besides, the shape likely won't suit you anyway.


----------



## tehkniq

When will templates for 3d printing be available?


----------



## Avalar

gipetto said:


> Don't be such a drama queen. That's the kind of thing teenage girls say to keep their boyfriends. All it does is make everyone disrespect or babysit them. And besides, the shape likely won't suit you anyway.


Thanks mom


----------



## Rhys7

gipetto said:


> Don't be such a drama queen. That's the kind of thing teenage girls say to keep their boyfriends. All it does is make everyone disrespect or babysit them. And besides, the shape likely won't suit you anyway.


my happiness then


----------



## nyshak

It sure is a bit sad that this thing will probably take 1 year or more to finish.


----------



## muso

1 year, yikes?!


----------



## vanir1337

nyshak said:


> It sure is a bit sad that this thing will probably take 1 year or more to finish.


Gosh, don't make up bs please.


----------



## nyshak

vanir1337 said:


> Gosh, don't make up bs please.


The kickstarter was in July 2018 Looking at the _fact_ it still isn't done and it is already May 2019...well - do the math.


----------



## vanir1337

nyshak said:


> The kickstarter was in July 2018 Looking at the _fact_ it still isn't done and it is already May 2019...well - do the math.


Mea culpa, I thought you meant 1 more year from now on. Yeah, I guess your version is more than possible.


----------



## empyr

Surprised bst hasn't said anything yet. Been quite a while since he's given any information (19th last month).


Need some sort of news, even if there isn't any "news", the fact you're telling us anything would be nice.


----------



## senileoldman

Too many demands and too much work for a single guy.
I think it will come out in 5 years, more or less.


----------



## James N

I am fine with delays, as long as in the end the product will be solid. That is a fair price to pay. I rather wait than getting a rushed half arsed product.


----------



## omrtpsycho

I managed to make peace with the delays and him constantly miscalculating (or just plain lying) about the timelines. But this attitude/silence is on another level. It really triggers me and I wish I had just bought another mouse. I know some will think 'Just go get another mouse', and they will be probably right. But man, my money is on this and I would like it to end, either by delivering the project or cancelling it. I am fine with both...


----------



## Hemanse

Im also fine with delays, that happens, but we could atleast get a little more info like once a month. Seems rather weird that we have to look through a forum post for updates on a mouse we backed on indiegogo.


----------



## senileoldman

It's not the first time he's done this. The same happened with the Aurora mouse; it was a very good mouse, but if I remember right, it took him a ******* while to get the mouse out since the first post he made on ESReality.

I'm pretty sure everything will be alright and the mouse will come out this year, don't worry so much.


----------



## Leopardi

empyr said:


> Surprised bst hasn't said anything yet. Been quite a while since he's given any information (19th last month).
> 
> 
> Need some sort of news, even if there isn't any "news", the fact you're telling us anything would be nice.


That's about 2 weeks ago, calm down a bit


----------



## bst

Sorry guys, I'm just really busy at the moment, let time get away from me a bit, I've just got a lot going on right now. I'll try and summarise things below:

The packaging wasn't really good enough, which I had known about for a while, but other things were always taking priority. So I redesigned it, which I thought would be easy, but no, it was a huge pain in the arse. Just the combination of things I wanted/needed didn't work well together. I would have preferred a metal box but unfortunately its quite expensive. So at the moment its a flip open type of box, a bit like a motherboard box, and the mouse and parts sit inside molded foam, and theres a small window on the front to show the colour (which I didn't want, but since there are so many colours, it helps to prevent mistakes with labelling and warehouse picking). Its mostly just making sure the factory can do everything, and going through all the ideas with them that takes half of the time, the other half is actually designing it.

As for the mouse itself, I think its going to be pretty much finished in a week or so, but theres just a lot of things going on with it at the moment. Its having its final tweaks done to the tooling (which I have to be involved with, so lots of discussions at 2am-11am  but they really are *final* tweaks), I still have to try those new optical switches, which are done, but they haven't sent the scroll wheel encoder yet. The factory told me I have to wait until its all finished before it goes to certification. The next delivery from the factory should be the final sample, at that point it should be pretty much finished, then once I confirm it, I'll get some proper samples made in all the colours (which I'll send out for previews/reviews), and it'll go for its certification. If the reviewers notice anything they want changing there should still be time to do it, I wouldn't want to, but if its really important then at least there will be the option for a last minute tweak.

Aside from me being useless with updates, and the time its taking, I don't think there's anything for anyone to worry about, the mouse feels really great, no creaking, really solid feel, nice buttons. I'm looking forward to trying the new optical switches, the buttons themselves are really nice, so if the switches are too, then it'll be perfect. I am going to try and make an update on Indiegogo soon, I wanted to make one when I got the sample a while back, but things started moving along and it was hard to get a snapshot of it all. I admit I'm bad at it though, some people would find it easy, but I don't, for some reason.


----------



## Avalar

Eyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, he's alive!


----------



## ncck

bst said:


> Sorry guys, I'm just really busy at the moment, let time get away from me a bit, I've just got a lot going on right now. I'll try and summarise things below:
> -snip


Sounds good. Thanks for the update. I've always wanted to make a mouse and you're out here actually doing it. Go you!


----------



## dontspamme

Hoping bst will read this:

*Where can one buy the Ninox Venator these days?*


----------



## vanir1337

dontspamme said:


> Hoping bst will read this:
> 
> *Where can one buy the Ninox Venator these days?*


Maxgaming.se still has some in stock.


----------



## dibodibo13

fd


----------



## bst

The thing is this, most of what you say is kind of true, but also isn't. You don't have all the details, and that's not your fault, but the details are pretty much impossible to share, and also pointless. But the details can completely change how something is understood. So what I do, is just accept that people are going to theorise, and come to conclusions, and not worry about it. Because if I did worry about it, it'd be a waste of time, since it's practically impossible to do anything about.

You just have to remember, when you are thinking about something, that its easy to think in general terms, and in perfect world terms. Like, you just do this, do that, and bam its done. But in the real world its more like, you do this, doesn't work, talk to this person, they don't reply, ask about this, they don't know, you hire someone for X work, they suck for some reason, and so on and so on. So it makes it long, complicated process that you can't explain to anyone else without writing a novel. In the end its easier just to let people think what they want 

When it comes to updates, they are quite hard to do, because no one would be satisfied with an update that doesn't contain any real information. Its just difficult to take something that is in progress, and write about it. Its just all so vague. I don't know how to take a bunch of vagueness and turn it into something that people are going to appreciate. It happens every now and then and I'm just not good with it, I don't know what to do about it. I don't really know why I find it so difficult, I find it really hard to explain.


----------



## dibodibo13

i understand what you are saying even if my english is kinda basic and doesn't have any programming career.(i only learned basic c++ when i was sophomore xD)
what you are trying to saying, i guess is complexity of production that you cant share specific details and inefficiency that comes with working with others and you sacrifce efficiency to be effective.
that literally happens everytime everywhere, even my superior doesn't know all the story of customer although his job is offering law service for them and than the customers has to point their exact same worries again that they shared with me. worst is most of the time, our goal with that case is severly lower than it actually could be, just to raise the possibility of winning the case. the example that i gave was somewhat irrelative to what your trying to say, but hey, i know. and still, i consider you are fantastic as a person because you are being as nice as any other man could, more than anyone could, although its obviously i excessibely stick my nose into your business, and trying to explain as much as you can, bear unreasonable criticism for our own utility.

its your decide, and you made your choice to focus on what you can. its good. its undisputable that you should. but i dont think its still good when it comes to ceo of ninox, who dont let their customers know when it will be done. its like steve jobs and tim cook. people dont know them very well. lets say, how a tv adapter cost 80 dollar. its too expensive right? most of people dont know it has cpu and ram to process to decode for optimizing resolution. and it follows like "you know, its apple, its tim cook, he is money hungry, history of selling crabs as expensive as possible" its kinda true, and wrong too when it comes to perfect world because any seller will put as much cost as possible to maximize their income but in real world, it may differ. it will take 2-4 months maybe longer" is not enough when people already paid their money. i wont say more because you are steady and solid, and i know it will be extremely busy like accountant at the end of fiscal year. good luck, i hope you all the best.


----------



## lurkerguy

I'm ready to put my WMO in the bin and to not have to deal with its low max tracking speed anymore.


----------



## dontspamme

vanir1337 said:


> Maxgaming.se still has some in stock.



Only if you live in Sweden. ;(

Once you switch to "EU" or "International", the two Venator demo mice they have left vanish.


----------



## willofps

cant wait to mod this mouse and put g305 pcb if possible lol


----------



## Aventadoor

I heard this rumour that BST has this other company. Its called Zowie.


----------



## Avalar

Aventadoor said:


> I heard this rumour that BST has this other company. Its called Zowie.


???????


----------



## jaysta

I hope its soon  My G502 clicks are starting to not register, It's doing my head in...I don't want to go out and buy another mouse when I have had this in the works for nearly 12 months now


----------



## Rhys7

jaysta said:


> I hope its soon  My G502 clicks are starting to not register, It's doing my head in...I don't want to go out and buy another mouse when I have had this in the works for nearly 12 months now


had to replace my fk1+ feels bad man


----------



## Tobzeh

Hey bst,

I commented on here a while ago asking to change to a coloured astrum and you told me to PM you - i have multiple times but im still waiting for a reply. I need to talk to you and get the details in which for me send the amount of money you need. Commenting here as bst doesn't seem to be seeing my PM's


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> But in the real world its more like, you do this, doesn't work, talk to this person, they don't reply, ask about this, they don't know, you hire someone for X work, they suck for some reason, and so on and so on.


Welcome to my world. Anything that tries to get done usually fails hence the fallback you planned sometimes works or it fails hence a simple procedure or task ends up being so complicated in excuses, red tape and bureaucracy it's usually best to leave it alone until the 'higher ups' decide it needs to be DONE. Then they release the extra funds to make sure it's completed but that alone usually never occurs as planned.



bst said:


> So it makes it long, complicated process that you can't explain to anyone else without writing a novel.


Those that have never worked in any Large Corporate Structure's have no idea what it's truly like to accomplish the most simple tasks, without filling out forms in triplicate and sending it off for approval. 

Sometimes I end up like 'Radar' in Mash, you try your best to keep the place running safely but there are always letdowns and sometimes the most obtuse conditions that stand in your way. The real trick is how to scale those mountains of calamity without falling off them, crippling yourself and your career.


----------



## bst

Tobzeh said:


> Hey bst,
> 
> I commented on here a while ago asking to change to a coloured astrum and you told me to PM you - i have multiple times but im still waiting for a reply. I need to talk to you and get the details in which for me send the amount of money you need. Commenting here as bst doesn't seem to be seeing my PM's


Sorry, ever since the new site, I miss PMs easily, because the number in the top right where my avatar is, is always showing a number whenever someone replies to a thread I'm watching, or mentions me. On the old site it only showed a number when I received a PM. Maybe I have to change some options in there, it also doesn't email me for PM's either. I am writing a reply to your PM now though.


----------



## popups

I would like them to go back to the old site. It was usable back then. It's no longer fun to use.


----------



## ryan92084

bst said:


> Sorry, ever since the new site, I miss PMs easily, because the number in the top right where my avatar is, is always showing a number whenever someone replies to a thread I'm watching, or mentions me. On the old site it only showed a number when I received a PM. Maybe I have to change some options in there, it also doesn't email me for PM's either. I am writing a reply to your PM now though.


Receive Email Notification of New Private Messages https://www.overclock.net/forum/profile.php?do=editoptions
and
Mention and quote notification/email settings https://www.overclock.net/forum/usertag.php?do=profile&action=options


----------



## nyshak

So...update @bst?


----------



## bst

ryan92084 said:


> Receive Email Notification of New Private Messages https://www.overclock.net/forum/profile.php?do=editoptions
> and
> Mention and quote notification/email settings https://www.overclock.net/forum/usertag.php?do=profile&action=options


Thanks, I enabled the email notifications, that should be enough.



nyshak said:


> So...update @bst?


There will be one next week, theres a new sample on the way, which should be the final shell and it'll have the new switches and scroll wheel.


----------



## nyshak

bst said:


> Thanks, I enabled the email notifications, that should be enough.
> 
> 
> 
> There will be one next week, theres a new sample on the way, which should be the final shell and it'll have the new switches and scroll wheel.


That itself is a welcome update! Thanks man.


----------



## bst

Just a little bit of news:
I wasn't completely happy with the mouse feet from the factory, the edges weren't really rounded, they weren't sharp, but still not really good enough. Turns out they can't do proper rounded edges, so now the mouse feet are being made by Tiger Gaming, they're in Shenzhen so same as the factory, works out well. They're 3x more expensive than the factories feet, but they can do rounded edges, so its worth it 

The factory didn't send the mouse sample out until today, apparently the scroll wheel didn't come in time for Friday, but usually it doesn't take long for DHL to get to me, hopefully it'll be Wednesday when I get it.


----------



## gipetto

I hope cost overruns don't end up removing your profit, nothing would kill a company quicker. I would be fine with generic round pads.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Just a little bit of news:
> Turns out they can't do proper rounded edges, so now the mouse feet are being made by Tiger Gaming, they're in Shenzhen so same as the factory, works out well. They're 3x more expensive than the factories feet, but they can do rounded edges, so its worth it


 
Damn, I love their new Tiger Gaming Feet for my G Pro W model. Just glides on the Logitech Mouse Pad with ease.


Can conclude that you might be the very first person/company that supplies Proper Gaming Feet for his own mouse model, yet to be released onto the public.


Some of the 'mindless' out there wouldn't even know the difference but those that are in tuned with their devices, will certainly feel the difference in quality.


Thank you for at least supplying something extra from your company here. Much appreciated :thumb: .


----------



## lurkerguy

It's not the first time, Model O includes rounded PTFE feet at least but it should have been an industry standard already years ago so it's good to see companies putting more focus on the feet


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Just a little bit of news:
> I wasn't completely happy with the mouse feet from the factory, the edges weren't really rounded, they weren't sharp, but still not really good enough. Turns out they can't do proper rounded edges, so now the mouse feet are being made by Tiger Gaming, they're in Shenzhen so same as the factory, works out well. They're 3x more expensive than the factories feet, but they can do rounded edges, so its worth it
> 
> The factory didn't send the mouse sample out until today, apparently the scroll wheel didn't come in time for Friday, but usually it doesn't take long for DHL to get to me, hopefully it'll be Wednesday when I get it.


Tiger Gaming doing the mouse feet? **** yes.


----------



## ncck

popups said:


> I would like them to go back to the old site. It was usable back then. It's no longer fun to use.


Indeed. Not happy with the new layout. I also feel like the website lost a LOT of daily traffic with the downtime and changes. I believe if it didn't occur the subreddit wouldn't have taken over. Also this website still does not work on mobile web browser for me. The whole page displays blank. I'm sure they had some legitimate reason to 'upgrade' the site but it's a shame.

Anyway is what it is.


----------



## bst

Just thought I'd make a quick update before a more in depth one.

I received the new sample yesterday, been testing it out and talking about it with the factory.

The new front button switches (customised optical switches), feel really great, they've made them feel almost exactly like the GM4s, so they've solved all the issues I had with them. The encoder is also much better as well, the old one was just a bit loose, so they made it with a smaller hole, now its much more secure. The middle click feels nice as well, not too hard or easy to click.

For the shell, there are a few issues, but they're all very minor. They do have to be fixed though. The shell, when its all together, feels good, very solid, no rattles.

Here's a few examples of the issues, just so you know what kind of things they are:
- There are letters and numbers on the side buttons and the side panels, so you know where they go. Eg: side button with B1 on it, goes where it says B1 on the side panel. So on one of the side panels, it says B3 where it should say B1.
- There is a little hole, about 0.6mm square, on the front buttons, where they attach (can't see it when the mouse is closed). Not sure what it is, but it needs to go.
- The rear clip which holds the top cover on, is too loose when its unlocked. It stays in place when its locked, but when you unlock it and take the top cover off, it can slide back to the locked position by itself, which it shouldn't do (basically they just need to make it a bit tighter, so not a big deal).

The list I sent to the factory had 8 things in total on it, they're all like that. I think probably most of it isn't worth mentioning, and they already know about it, but of course I have to mention it just in case.

Because these issues are minor, I'll get them to verify them by photo and video, and get some final samples made, which I'll send out to reviewers, and to certification.

Also, I know probably no one cares that much, but I should have a photo of the box soon 

Here's some photos of the shell, they're not good photos, sorry. Also, its not painted, its just plain black plastic at the moment. https://photos.app.goo.gl/wgv4HmAUnDgkCDpn9


----------



## bst

Mouse feet are ready


----------



## vanir1337

Can't wait!


----------



## lurkerguy

Feet look nice and it's good to hear the switches are better now. Exciting to hear it's almost done


----------



## aCz-

sounds cool and dandy.

Just one question. When watching older pictures it looks ( feels ) like side buttons was a bit more upfront. My eyes are lying to me or you had to move side buttons a bit towards to middle?


----------



## bst

aCz- said:


> Just one question. When watching older pictures it looks ( feels ) like side buttons was a bit more upfront. My eyes are lying to me or you had to move side buttons a bit towards to middle?


Yep. They were a bit too far forward in the original. They were also a little bit too high, so they were moved down a bit.
Wireframe is the old side buttons position, solid model is the new:
https://snag.gy/2PmkVF.jpg


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Mouse feet are ready /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


Dang, those are perfect.


----------



## aCz-

bst said:


> Yep. They were a bit too far forward in the original. They were also a little bit too high, so they were moved down a bit.
> Wireframe is the old side buttons position, solid model is the new:
> https://snag.gy/2PmkVF.jpg



Did you ever used nixeus revel because the mouse 4/5 on that mouse is pretty far from front. For example i have no issues on fast clicking on mouse4( bind who is more towards to front) but have to bend my grip to push mouse5. Is there different feel on astrum or same!? Looks like they are set pretty hard towards to mid. Could be issue for full palm grip to use mouse 5.


----------



## bst

aCz- said:


> Did you ever used nixeus revel because the mouse 4/5 on that mouse is pretty far from front. For example i have no issues on fast clicking on mouse4( bind who is more towards to front) but have to bend my grip to push mouse5. Is there different feel on astrum or same!? Looks like they are set pretty hard towards to mid. Could be issue for full palm grip to use mouse 5.


I've got a Revel, I know what you mean about it's side buttons, also I palm in FPS.
When I palm the mouse the rear side button is directly in line with my thumb knuckle (the knuckle nearest the thumbnail). So its really easy to click it, I just move my thumb up. For the front button, its pretty much in line with my thumbnail. I have pretty average sized hands 10x19cm.

The last pic didn't show the whole mouse, maybe this one will help you understand their location better:
https://snag.gy/DkSq4w.jpg

I think unless you have really large hands, or you prefer to click the side buttons only with the tip of your thumb, it shouldn't be any problem. Before, it felt wrong, it was a stretch to reach the front side button, its much better like this IMO.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Mouse feet are ready


They're really HUGE :wth: .


Was hoping for mx500 (original) style of feet. Small oval little wonders all retaining the same shape.

Easy to fit which ever one, into a variety of positions on the mouse bottom.


----------



## iBerggman

Elrick said:


> They're really HUGE :wth: .
> 
> 
> Was hoping for mx500 (original) style of feet. Small oval little wonders all retaining the same shape.
> 
> Easy to fit which ever one, into a variety of positions on the mouse bottom.


I'm pretty sure that's exactly why they are so huge, you gotta realize that while you prefer smaller oval ones there are those that prefer this style of bigger feet so to cater for both you gotta make them big from the factory. And honestly it's a lot better this way if you ask me, Intellimouse Hyperglides are my favourite feet and it annoys me how many mice have too small stock feet for the Intellimouse feet to fit properly. I've never tried big mouse feet with rounded edges either so it'll also be nice to try some.


----------



## nyshak

Is it just me or are the main buttons to wide on this early model? Looks like you could get caught on this with your pinky.


----------



## bst

iBerggman said:


> I'm pretty sure that's exactly why they are so huge, you gotta realize that while you prefer smaller oval ones there are those that prefer this style of bigger feet so to cater for both you gotta make them big from the factory. And honestly it's a lot better this way if you ask me, Intellimouse Hyperglides are my favourite feet and it annoys me how many mice have too small stock feet for the Intellimouse feet to fit properly. I've never tried big mouse feet with rounded edges either so it'll also be nice to try some.


Yeah they're large so you can use smaller ones if you want to, or ceramics. Or for the people who use harder pads, large ones should last longer. They should also be more resistant to sinking into soft pads.



nyshak said:


> Is it just me or are the main buttons to wide on this early model? Looks like you could get caught on this with your pinky.


I guess its just the photos making them look wide, they're only 18.5mm wide, I wouldn't want them any thinner.
I don't know what you mean about it getting caught on your pinkie, what will get caught?


----------



## RaleighStClair

looking really good. Those feet look great!


----------



## MentalOutOnline

OH cool we got an update thanks. Now see you in two months.


----------



## James N

bst said:


> They should also be more resistant to sinking into soft pads.


Thank you for this. It is definitely noticeable on small mousefeet that the sensitivity differs due to how much pressure you use in certain situations. You press your mouse a little harder onto the mousepad and then your cpi changes due to the sensor being closer to the surface resulting in your mouse sensitivity fluctuating. I definitely like bigger mouse feet just for this reason. For anyone using hardpads it is also beneficial like you mentioned. Good news. Can't wait.




MentalOutOnline said:


> OH cool we got an update thanks. Now see you in two months.


I rather wait another 6 months and get a perfect initial product, than a rushed product that has issues needing to be ironed out in upcoming iterations.


----------



## Avalar

James N said:


> Thank you for this. It is definitely noticeable on small mousefeet that the sensitivity differs due to how much pressure you use in certain situations. You press your mouse a little harder onto the mousepad and then your cpi changes due to the sensor being closer to the surface resulting in your mouse sensitivity fluctuating. I definitely like bigger mouse feet just for this reason. For anyone using hardpads it is also beneficial like you mentioned. Good news. Can't wait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I rather wait another 6 months and get a perfect initial product, than a rushed product that has issues needing to be ironed out in upcoming iterations.


Same.

...but it hurts D;


----------



## James N

Avalar said:


> Same.
> 
> ...but it hurts D;


Yea would have liked to have it last December ,but oh well.


----------



## Yahar

Bst, any word on using the 3389 or even the 3389PRO? It would be nice to get them instead over 3360


----------



## gunit2004

Yahar said:


> Bst, any word on using the 3389 or even the 3389PRO? It would be nice to get them instead over 3360


Yes indeed it would be nice to get one of those.

Not sure when the 3389PRO came about but it seems like Coolermaster will be using it in their upcoming MM710 (lightweight 52g Mastermouse S update)


----------



## ewiggle

Yahar said:


> Bst, any word on using the 3389 or even the 3389PRO? It would be nice to get them instead over 3360


meh


----------



## vanir1337

3360 > 3389


----------



## winz0r

@bst I sent you a message on indiegogo regarding a change of country for delivery. Just making sure it's not sent to the wrong country once it's complete.


----------



## FenixSU

bst said:


> The new front button switches (customised optical switches), feel really great, they've made them feel almost exactly like the GM4s, so they've solved all the issues I had with them. The encoder is also much better as well, the old one was just a bit loose, so they made it with a smaller hole, now its much more secure.
> [/url]


Please explain in more detail what these optical switches and encoders are? Are they identical to those currently used in A4Tech Bloody (L K Light Strike) mice or is it self-development? Very interesting!


----------



## bst

winz0r said:


> @bst I sent you a message on indiegogo regarding a change of country for delivery. Just making sure it's not sent to the wrong country once it's complete.


I will sort it out for you today. Usually as long as theres no big change (like moving to the other side of the world), its ok, I just have to note the change and make it manually when exporting all the orders, because Indiegogo doesn't allow changing the country (as it changes the shipping fee, usually). I'll also be making final calls 2 and 1 week up to the shipment dates, to give everyone a chance to check their details.



FenixSU said:


> Please explain in more detail what these optical switches and encoders are? Are they identical to those currently used in A4Tech Bloody (L K Light Strike) mice or is it self-development? Very interesting!


They're custom LK (Light Strike) switches and encoder. All they really done with the encoder is make a smaller hole where the scroll wheel inserts, the feel of it I thought was fine. Its moderately tactile, similar to Alps and F-Switch. For the switches, I wasn't keen on their pre-travel or their click feel, so they matched them to Kailh GM4's. The ones I have actually feel even nicer, IMO.


----------



## winz0r

bst said:


> I will sort it out for you today. Usually as long as theres no big change (like moving to the other side of the world), its ok, I just have to note the change and make it manually when exporting all the orders, because Indiegogo doesn't allow changing the country (as it changes the shipping fee, usually).


Thanks for the reply. I moved back from the US to Europe so that's kind of moving to the other side of the world :<


----------



## Untamedcdr

winz0r said:


> Thanks for the reply. I moved back from the US to Europe so that's kind of moving to the other side of the world :<


He's six months past expected delivery, no way you could have planned for that. This is his problem, not yours.


----------



## t3ram

Untamedcdr said:


> winz0r said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I moved back from the US to Europe so that's kind of moving to the other side of the world :<
> 
> 
> 
> He's six months past expected delivery, no way you could have planned for that. This is his problem, not yours.
Click to expand...

Six months already? I somehow forgot the time only good thing is that now mouse makers are starting to build other light weight mice


----------



## bst

Untamedcdr said:


> He's six months past expected delivery, no way you could have planned for that. This is his problem, not yours.


Well it wasn't a big deal in his case, already sorted it out without charging him anything.
Its just if you go from US to Thailand or something, it'll cost a fair bit more.

The thing that a lot of people don't understand about crowd funds is its not the same kind of promise as a pre-order. With crowdfunding you promise to make the product with the funds that people provide. With pre-orders, you're essentially saying you already have the funds.

So, with that in mind:
Refunds and concessions on pre-orders are expected, because it doesn't really affect anything.
Refunds and concessions on crowdfunds aren't expected, because it can lead to a failure of the project, and so then everyone loses out and its a disaster.

If you do it for one person, then everyone will expect it. Then you look even more evil if you have to eventually start saying no.

Basically, crowd funds are borderline worth it, there's a ton of complexities to them, in the end, theres a high chance of them tarnishing the image of your company, and disappointing customers. But unfortunately small companies don't have a lot of choice. Also, a delay doesn't necessarily mean you done anything wrong, there are lots of factors which can be outside your control that cause it. In the words of Picard:


----------



## aCz-

@bst Is there any estimated date when first testers could get samples!? If i'm correct and most of the things are corrected and only need some adjustments to shell so there is no loose stuff and gaps. I understand that mass production will take time, but some time ago you sad some people who will be testing mice beside you will get they product before everybody else. Is there some sort of understanding when it could happen!? And if there will be some sort of NDA before mice come on the bigger market or other people get there samples!?


----------



## Untamedcdr

bst said:


> Well it wasn't a big deal in his case, already sorted it out without charging him anything.
> Its just if you go from US to Thailand or something, it'll cost a fair bit more.
> 
> The thing that a lot of people don't understand about crowd funds is its not the same kind of promise as a pre-order. With crowdfunding you promise to make the product with the funds that people provide. With pre-orders, you're essentially saying you already have the funds.
> 
> So, with that in mind:
> Refunds and concessions on pre-orders are expected, because it doesn't really affect anything.
> Refunds and concessions on crowdfunds aren't expected, because it can lead to a failure of the project, and so then everyone loses out and its a disaster.
> 
> If you do it for one person, then everyone will expect it. Then you look even more evil if you have to eventually start saying no.
> 
> Basically, crowd funds are borderline worth it, there's a ton of complexities to them, in the end, theres a high chance of them tarnishing the image of your company, and disappointing customers. But unfortunately small companies don't have a lot of choice. Also, a delay doesn't necessarily mean you done anything wrong, there are lots of factors which can be outside your control that cause it. In the words of Picard:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TCX90yALsI


Sure, I understand that. I have essentially made a one-time investment in your company with the promise of getting a product in return. Refunds shouldn't be an option, as the money is already supposed to be spent on making the product, be it materials, paychecks, payments to externals or other.


----------



## bst

aCz- said:


> @bst Is there any estimated date when first testers could get samples!? If i'm correct and most of the things are corrected and only need some adjustments to shell so there is no loose stuff and gaps. I understand that mass production will take time, but some time ago you sad some people who will be testing mice beside you will get they product before everybody else. Is there some sort of understanding when it could happen!? And if there will be some sort of NDA before mice come on the bigger market or other people get there samples!?


I don't have an exact date, but its not far away. What I'm waiting for at the moment is the sample that will demonstrate all the final tweaks have been done. Firstly, they'll show me by video, which saves time - if anything looks wrong in the video, I can tell them to fix it the same day. If everything looks good, I need to have the sample sent to me, to do a more thorough check. 

Once it has been proven that its at an acceptable standard, then they will make "potentially final" pre-production samples, which will be used for final testing by reviewers, and for certification. If they pass all that with flying colours, then it'll be ready to go to mass production. If they don't pass all of that, they need to be tweaked in the areas they fail in (wherever it was). I have done everything I can to make them pass, so they should (I'm just explaining the process it has to go through).

So its hard to give an exact date on it, because it depends how well they make this next sample. Of course I'll be really disappointed if the next sample isn't good enough, because I was very clear on the things that needed to be done.


----------



## aCz-

bst said:


> I don't have an exact date, but its not far away. What I'm waiting for at the moment is the sample that will demonstrate all the final tweaks have been done. Firstly, they'll show me by video, which saves time - if anything looks wrong in the video, I can tell them to fix it the same day. If everything looks good, I need to have the sample sent to me, to do a more thorough check.
> 
> Once it has been proven that its at an acceptable standard, then they will make "potentially final" pre-production samples, which will be used for final testing by reviewers, and for certification. If they pass all that with flying colours, then it'll be ready to go to mass production. If they don't pass all of that, they need to be tweaked in the areas they fail in (wherever it was). I have done everything I can to make them pass, so they should (I'm just explaining the process it has to go through).
> 
> So its hard to give an exact date on it, because it depends how well they make this next sample. Of course I'll be really disappointed if the next sample isn't good enough, because I was very clear on the things that needed to be done.



And what about NDA!? Would those people be able to talk publicly about mice before mass production!?


----------



## bst

aCz- said:


> And what about NDA!? Would those people be able to talk publicly about mice before mass production!?


No NDA, they can show and talk about what they like.

The only thing I ask of them is, if there is some problem, contact me first, so I can get it fixed, or maybe explain why it is the way it is. Just so its not left to speculation.


----------



## aCz-

makes sense. 

ty


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> No NDA, they can show and talk about what they like.


That's why WE all Love you :cheers: .



bst said:


> The only thing I ask of them is, if there is some problem, contact me first, so I can get it fixed, or maybe explain why it is the way it is. Just so its not left to speculation.


Careful, not everyone is as decent as YOU.

Some of these people might be secretly getting kick backs from other 'Companies' to help promote their gear instead. This is the real-dirty world we all live in. Any way to cast misdirection and fake news about anyone else and their product is applauded and encouraged these days.

It might even be taught in Business Schools today, known as appropriate negative PR against your opponents (tax avoidance/incentive there).


----------



## Ukkooh

Is the secret feature mentioned in the new update for the astrum or an upcoming product? Sounds interesting either way.


----------



## Avalar

Really curious to hear what feature hasn’t been used in a mouse yet ^-^


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> Is the secret feature mentioned in the new update for the astrum or an upcoming product? Sounds interesting either way.


Its for the Astrum, a free bonus, and it's optional. Its for enthusiasts, mostly.



Avalar said:


> Really curious to hear what feature hasn’t been used in a mouse yet ^-^


Its an enthusiast/DIY thing, so its not something a big company would do, so I think that's why it hasn't happened before. Its basically something I think the enthusiast community will like.

To be honest, I regretted mentioning it shortly after, there was no real need, you'll see it soon anyway. I remembered I hate keeping a secret when people know I'm keeping one. Its much easier when people don't know


----------



## ryan92084




----------



## Untamedcdr

@bst I saw a while back that you had made a shell with holes, are you willing to properly make them for us to have it 3D printed? Just below 80 g isn't as impressive today as it was six months ago.


----------



## empyr

I really hope there won't be more last minute changes and fixes to do. You can't help but feel sad when you think about it's "soon" going to be a year since this was funded. Yes, I'm fully aware how kickstarter projects work for anybody who's going to comment on that.

However, for your sake bst, I really do hope this mouse is flawless. I still to this day think if you'd been able to launch this back in December/January it would have been a huge success, but now with everyone craving low weight and some of the bigger companies jumping on the bandwagon, It's going to be harder for the Astrum to fit in. I'm sure people who care more about the shape will love this, and to be fair, the current weight estimate isn't horrible by any means, I find it just fine.

At the end of the day, I personally am expecting a "perfect" mouse, which means none of these issues, to list a few ontop of my head;
No creaking shell, no matter how you squeeze/hold/press.
No faulty activation of side buttons if you squeeze too hard.
No double clicks, massive sidesway, too loose M1/M2.
No issues with the sensor/firmware (No updates required after you get the mouse please...)
No panels being broken, bent, too big, too small, not fitting.

I'm sure there's somebody out there that can think of plenty more, but I really do hope whoever you're going to be working with now to send out stuff to backers, that they actually deliver on time and it's not going to be a situation of where people will be waiting months for it to arrive, and backers should be getting this mouse before you put it up for sale, considering the waiting time they'd had to go through. I may be biased of course.

Just my 2 cents though.


----------



## bst

Untamedcdr said:


> @bst I saw a while back that you had made a shell with holes, are you willing to properly make them for us to have it 3D printed? Just below 80 g isn't as impressive today as it was six months ago.


Yes, you'll be able to download them.



empyr said:


> I really hope there won't be more last minute changes and fixes to do. You can't help but feel sad when you think about it's "soon" going to be a year since this was funded. Yes, I'm fully aware how kickstarter projects work for anybody who's going to comment on that.
> 
> However, for your sake bst, I really do hope this mouse is flawless. I still to this day think if you'd been able to launch this back in December/January it would have been a huge success, but now with everyone craving low weight and some of the bigger companies jumping on the bandwagon, It's going to be harder for the Astrum to fit in. I'm sure people who care more about the shape will love this, and to be fair, the current weight estimate isn't horrible by any means, I find it just fine.[etc..]


It hasn't shown any of those issues you listed, its a nice solid mouse. I agree with you about its weight, in that, its light enough. It feels like a really light mouse. I couldn't get it any lighter, not without putting holes all over it, or ruining its structural integrity.

I know people want a light as possible mouse these days, but if I had done that, there was always the risk that in the 2 months it takes to get funding, someone can pretty much copy it and start its tooling with a 2 month advantage on me. Even by accident, one could have come out that was very similar. So I had to do something that wasn't going to be easy, or as desirable to copy, or as likely to exist by accident. Yeah I wish I could just make what I wanted, when I wanted, but the world's not fair 

I should say though that for some people, the shape and weight isn't going to be its selling point, its the adjustablity of it. So to judge it on its "base" specifications, is kind of wrong, because they're variable


----------



## MentalOutOnline

im sure most of the people will 3d print their fav shell so it isnt a big problem if bsts shells have some little flaw on it and i know its not everyone that can afford a 3d printer or has a 3d printer store near their house


----------



## nyshak

bst said:


> I should say though that for some people, the shape and weight isn't going to be its selling point, its the adjustablity of it. So to judge it on its "base" specifications, is kind of wrong, because they're variable


Well it is for me . There isn't any alpha shaped other mouse out there, really.


----------



## bst

MentalOutOnline said:


> im sure most of the people will 3d print their fav shell so it isnt a big problem if bsts shells have some little flaw on it and i know its not everyone that can afford a 3d printer or has a 3d printer store near their house


3DHubs.com is really good. Much better than using a home printer, they use much better quality printers, also, since they do it all the time, they're better at making a good print. You can also tell them how you want it printed, like, which way the layers go. You can choose your material as well. You could even get a mouse machined out of aluminium there, lol (would cost a lot though). But I printed a mouse in ABS a while back on there and it came back really nice, and was about £25 I think, maybe less.

You have to design 3D printed mice a bit differently, but in a way its cool when you get used to it. Its a lot easier than designing a mouse for injection molds (don't need draft angles or uniform wall thickness) Just need to keep it simple. Little details don't come out well. But you can do things with it that you can't do with injection molds, which is nice.


----------



## lurkerguy

Weight doesn't matter nearly as much as shape and a heavier normal size sub 80g mouse can still feel lighter than small 60g mouse if it has good weight distribution on it which Astrum should have since it has the skeleton inside it for modularity which all the other mice lack and the PCB parts are also divided between the upper and lower levels of the shell. Looking forward to try it out and to see the early reviews pop out, might be the last mouse I will ever get


----------



## ewiggle

lurkerguy said:


> might be the last mouse I will ever get


jokes


----------



## akama

@bst Any info on the weight of the mouse with honeycomb shells? Might be too early to answer.


----------



## bst

akama said:


> @bst Any info on the weight of the mouse with honeycomb shells? Might be too early to answer.


Not sure yet, CAD said it takes about 8g off, so not huge. But I'll be printing a few things soon, I'll post the weight reductions when I've got them.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Not sure yet, CAD said it takes about 8g off, so not huge. But I'll be printing a few things soon, I'll post the weight reductions when I've got them.


You have the final product yet? Really excited! ^-^


----------



## Rhys7

i think its a 2020 thing now


----------



## kr0w

bst said:


> Ukkooh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the secret feature mentioned in the new update for the astrum or an upcoming product? Sounds interesting either way.
> 
> 
> 
> Its for the Astrum, a free bonus, and it's optional. Its for enthusiasts, mostly.
> 
> 
> 
> Avalar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really curious to hear what feature hasnâ€™️t been used in a mouse yet ^-^
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its an enthusiast/DIY thing, so its not something a big company would do, so I think that's why it hasn't happened before. Its basically something I think the enthusiast community will like.
> 
> To be honest, I regretted mentioning it shortly after, there was no real need, you'll see it soon anyway. I remembered I hate keeping a secret when people know I'm keeping one. Its much easier when people don't know /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Click to expand...

My guess is this mean it will be flashable like an Arduino where you can modify the source code to your liking? That would be a nice feature


----------



## Elrick

Rhys7 said:


> i think its a 2020 thing now


Why not, as long as it's still coming and not vanishing into the depths of 'what might of been'.

This mouse can come out into the Light of Day whenever it chooses. It will be a very timid creature that needs our care and attention when it shows itself.

Looking forward to it's eventual arrival on our Desks and Gaming Pads.


----------



## Rhys7

Elrick said:


> Why not, as long as it's still coming and not vanishing into the depths of 'what might of been'.
> 
> This mouse can come out into the Light of Day whenever it chooses. It will be a very timid creature that needs our care and attention when it shows itself.
> 
> Looking forward to it's eventual arrival on our Desks and Gaming Pads.


yeah i get you, id rather wait and it be right than it be rushed...

but i got huge hands and i play left handed so youll never feel my pain


----------



## empyr

@bst - So you posted on the 11th it would be 1-2 weeks, do you have any updates?


----------



## Elrick

Rhys7 said:


> but i got huge hands and i play left handed so youll never feel my pain


I started out as a "Leftie" but eventually switched over to the other side.

No regrets whatsoever because this is after all the RIGHTie world of play here. Knew that one day the Right's will kill off all Leftie's hence was better off changing arms than sticking with a dying decision to remain on the left side.

Not fair I know, but this is the World we are all currently forced to live in. Until that changes, you are forced to adapt or fall by the way side.


----------



## lurkerguy

...what?


----------



## bst

empyr said:


> @bst - So you posted on the 11th it would be 1-2 weeks, do you have any updates?


They've finished the tooling, which took a while because they're busy. Its really annoying because the factory will give the standard time it takes, then if that changes (like, they book it in and it turns out it'll take longer), they don't tell me.

They also wanted some changes to the PCB after the tooling was finished, and my engineer was away on business so he didn't get round to making the changes for a while  (I only sent the factory the new PCB designs yesterday). 

The other thing is I'm going to test the microchip direct chip programming, since its what will be used in manufacturing. Basically you send the firmware with the order of the MCUs, and they are programmed with it. So far I've been just manually updating the FW, so I haven't tried their service yet. I am waiting for new FW from my engineer at the moment, when I get that I can order the MCUs, which take about 3 days to get to the factory.

So how long it takes depends on three things: The time it takes the factory to make the PCBs, the time it takes my engineer to send me the new FW, and the time it takes Microchip to send the MCUs.

Hopefully, these will be the last changes needed, so the mouse will be final after I get these samples. While the mouse with reviewers, it'll be FCC/CE tested, which should be easy. Then it'll be ready to be mass produced, which will take 1.5-2 months. It might take a little longer, because it's a new model for them and they'll probably want to figure out how best to manufacture it on the production line.


----------



## Rhys7

Elrick said:


> I started out as a "Leftie" but eventually switched over to the other side.
> 
> No regrets whatsoever because this is after all the RIGHTie world of play here. Knew that one day the Right's will kill off all Leftie's hence was better off changing arms than sticking with a dying decision to remain on the left side.
> 
> Not fair I know, but this is the World we are all currently forced to live in. Until that changes, you are forced to adapt or fall by the way side.


i played right handed all my life till about 24 switched to left and never looked back....im very left handed though my right hand is useless and though i miss keying with my left hand i prefer mousing with the left more...

i used to avoid fps games when i played right handed because i just felt like a i was no good...a friend begged me to play csgo so i ended up getting into it trying to improve and that made me switch mousing hands..


----------



## pr0l4nd

Rhys7 said:


> i played right handed all my life till about 24 switched to left and never looked back....im very left handed though my right hand is useless and though i miss keying with my left hand i prefer mousing with the left more...
> 
> i used to avoid fps games when i played right handed because i just felt like a i was no good...a friend begged me to play csgo so i ended up getting into it trying to improve and that made me switch mousing hands..


Sorry for offtop, but how long it took to get comfortable with playing left hand?


----------



## Rhys7

pr0l4nd said:


> Sorry for offtop, but how long it took to get comfortable with playing left hand?


i think it depends on you really but for me i remember it feeling impossible when i switched i couldnt even move around a map or turn or do anything it felt awful like i had to learn everything again and it felt like this for months!

i used to play an hour or two left handed a day and then switched back to right handed so i could actually enjoy playing....so csgo 2 hours left handed deathmatch with bots to start lol it was that difficult...then some mmo right handed...i did this for id say like 4 months....many times i quit and thought f*** this i cba with it quit for a week....but then i went back and eventually i got even better with my left than right and i laugh when i use a mouse right handed now....what motivated me was that i couldnt find anyone at all on the internet who had switched only people who had given up...or been told it would take too much time THE BEST ONE WAS IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT HAND YOU USE YOU CAN GET GOOD WITH ANY LOL...i now do better than friends who have played certain fps from young ages....its a shame my hands are a weird size...really wide, wider than they should be for my length....21.5 by 11.5 and my hands are quite skinny too so like if they were fatter more of a cushion i reckon flatter mice like the fk might feel better...

it actualy got to a point where id be playing csgo with freinds and id get mad playing left handed mainly because i found using the keys with my right hand really tough you know kinda strafing and countering the movement with your mouse crosshair...i would literaly switch my mouse back to right because of how awkward it was...but now im like 10x better with my left....

some people are quite ambidextrous im not at all, i remember doing riot training when i was in the army, the batton we used you to hold in your right hand because the shields where left handed and i swung it like a girl and just couldnt grasp it but in my left i was as good as everyone else...
also keybinds are a nightmare...ive had razer blackwidow and you can remap all the keys so ive never had any issues....another thing is i bought my keyboard when i was living in cyprus im orginaly uk so its a foreign layout which is the only reason i can use the right side of the keyboard without any messing about










most of the other layouts have a larger enter key and this forces your hand away from the shift and ctrl......its the reason i cant upgrade my keyboard...

so yeah it takes time but if you just do a few hours a day against bots on games its frustrating but sometimes fun to watch your progress...and it feels good in the end...so about a year id say...for me...


----------



## pr0l4nd

thx for answer


----------



## wazzupi

Im really interested in making a g303 shape its my favorite current shape and id really like to know how i would go about figuring out the whole 3D printing thing 🙂


----------



## Cryoxic

Back on topic, will the firmware be open source?
Do you have the final samples yet? It's been three weeks, and I believe the ETA for them was 1-2 weeks.
If you do have them, how are they? Do any tweaks need to be made?
Finally, you said the secret feature would likely be revealed (or completed?) about a month after the update. Now that we're closer to that time, can we get a bit more information about it?


----------



## bst

Cryoxic said:


> Back on topic, will the firmware be open source?
> Do you have the final samples yet? It's been three weeks, and I believe the ETA for them was 1-2 weeks.
> If you do have them, how are they? Do any tweaks need to be made?
> Finally, you said the secret feature would likely be revealed (or completed?) about a month after the update. Now that we're closer to that time, can we get a bit more information about it?


I'm not sure about the firmware. I think some tournament organisers worry about people being able to cheat with it, although, I don't actually know how you could cheat with it. But I don't personally mind it being open source. Its something I haven't really looked into yet. But it can always be changed at any time, even once people have the mouse, I can still publish the code. However I do think that there might not be much point in it, because I can always add requests to the code myself, and it keeps it official.

I don't have the samples yet, its still going to be a few days, because it took a while to get the firmware from my engineer, I have now ordered the programmed MCUs though. After they arrive, it should be ready to go.

The secret thing isn't really a huge secret, its something that people already knew could be done with the mouse. But probably not everyone knew the extent. What it basically is, is free shell designs you can use with the Astrum, not just panels, but full shells designed to fit the Astrum PCBs. Because the Astrum's PCBs are modular, you can fit it into a bunch of different shells. You can move the scroll wheel, front buttons, sensor etc independently to make it fit.

So why did I say, no one has done it before? Because even though you can get some 3D printed community parts on Thingiverse for various mice, none of the companies made them for their mice. They let the community do it. Not that theres anything wrong with that, its just that its nice to offer some shapes to get people started. So there will be a website where you can download these shells, and other panels and so on. It takes a while to make a shell, but I'll keep on adding new ones, and there will be a community section as well, but the quality has to be high to get in, I want people to have a good experience with it.

I'll show an example of one of the shells you can download, this one weighs 63g, but it wasn't really designed to be the lightest. It was designed to be strong and simple, its designed specifically to be 3D printed, so its quite different in a few areas than an injection molded mouse (like there are areas where the plastic is quite thick). But if you wanted you could add holes to it and make it lighter.

I also didn't go crazy with the finishing, I just sanded it for about 30 mins and then painted it. It needed a little bit of adjusting but not too much. The clicks feel nice on it and its solid, I'm surprised how well they come out.

The dimensions of this mouse are: LxWxH 115x62x35.5 so its a pretty small mouse.

https://imgur.com/a/nfdE7HN


----------



## Straifer

that 3d print looks awesome! I can see this really opening up the idea of people building around the PCB.


----------



## vanir1337

Really stoked about the 3D printability. Can't wait!


----------



## MentalOutOnline

@bst do the dimensions of the mouse change?


----------



## a_ak57

The 3D printability is neat, hope that means we'll eventually see a "natural" G9X Precision Grip shape that doesn't actually involve having multiple shells and all that extra weight.


----------



## bst

MentalOutOnline said:


> @bst do the dimensions of the mouse change?


Not sure exactly what you mean, but if you mean the 3D file that mouse I posted was printed from, then no, it can't be changed in scale, not easily anyway, it pretty much has to be redesigned to change its scale, because all the things like screw holes, and wall thickness gets messed up when you scale it.

Its not something that's going to be extensive on day 1, it'll build up over time. So more sizes and shapes can be added later.



a_ak57 said:


> The 3D printability is neat, hope that means we'll eventually see a "natural" G9X Precision Grip shape that doesn't actually involve having multiple shells and all that extra weight.


If you want a shape, the best thing to do is scan it with this program, and send the model to me (PM me a link to it):




If you have trouble scaling it, send me dimensions with it. But scaling it will help get the ball rolling. Meshlab can do it pretty easily, and maybe sketchup, but I haven't tried it with that.

I can't guarantee I'll make every shape, because it takes a while to make them, then test/prototype them and so on. Some shapes also just won't fit the PCBs, or are just so complex that its hard to simplify it to get a good result with the 3D print. But if I have the 3D scan then it makes it a lot easier.

I'm not going to outright copy mice, that's something more for the community, if they want an exact copy, they can get away with it  But if someone sends me a shape they like, then I'll do it so its in the same kind of vein. Like the mouse I posted above is kind of like a Kinzu, its not a clone, but if you like the Kinzu you'd probably like it.


----------



## p1r4nh4

@bst 

That website idea sounds super exciting. I would love to get involved with that. Currently Im working on a G305 mod, the "G305 Ultralight"


----------



## Wepeel

Does this mean you can make a true ergo shape? That is when the left mouse button sits higher than the right button to create a slope.


----------



## bst

p1r4nh4 said:


> @bst
> 
> That website idea sounds super exciting. I would love to get involved with that. Currently Im working on a G305 mod, the "G305 Ultralight"


Looks good, it'd be really great to have community designed shells.

The only thing is, they'll probably have to be on a different site, like thingiverse, just because hosting other people's designs can get complicated. I haven't used that site very much, but I guess I can just link to an #astrum tag and it'll work pretty well.

You will also be able to download the STEP files for the 3D printed shapes (the Ninox ones) so you can edit them, like if you wanted to put holes in the shell and so on. So in that case, they'll still be on a site like thingiverse, but tagged #astrum #model. So like that small mouse above, I was going to call it Spectre, I can put a link on its page to go to #astrum #spectre and it'll show all the community modifications for it.



Wepeel said:


> Does this mean you can make a true ergo shape? That is when the left mouse button sits higher than the right button to create a slope.


Yes, there will be true ergo shapes.


----------



## p1r4nh4

@bst

Afaik thingiverse also has groups. We could create an Astrum group.


----------



## bst

p1r4nh4 said:


> @bst
> 
> Afaik thingiverse also has groups. We could create an Astrum group.


Ah that's cool, I'll check it out.

Btw, all your "s" letters are coming out as "s" (115 is the ascii code for "s"). https://snag.gy/mSW0kB.jpg


----------



## Klopfer

maybe you @bst can make a CM Storm Spawn Shape Clone ( Xornet / Xornet II were a lil bit different too , but MM520 was huge different )


----------



## SoFGR

THIS ^


----------



## hotrodkungfury

bst said:


> Cryoxic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back on topic, will the firmware be open source?
> Do you have the final samples yet? It's been three weeks, and I believe the ETA for them was 1-2 weeks.
> If you do have them, how are they? Do any tweaks need to be made?
> Finally, you said the secret feature would likely be revealed (or completed?) about a month after the update. Now that we're closer to that time, can we get a bit more information about it?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about the firmware. I think some tournament organisers worry about people being able to cheat with it, although, I don't actually know how you could cheat with it. But I don't personally mind it being open source. Its something I haven't really looked into yet. But it can always be changed at any time, even once people have the mouse, I can still publish the code. However I do think that there might not be much point in it, because I can always add requests to the code myself, and it keeps it official.
> 
> I don't have the samples yet, its still going to be a few days, because it took a while to get the firmware from my engineer, I have now ordered the programmed MCUs though. After they arrive, it should be ready to go.
> 
> The secret thing isn't really a huge secret, its something that people already knew could be done with the mouse. But probably not everyone knew the extent. What it basically is, is free shell designs you can use with the Astrum, not just panels, but full shells designed to fit the Astrum PCBs. Because the Astrum's PCBs are modular, you can fit it into a bunch of different shells. You can move the scroll wheel, front buttons, sensor etc independently to make it fit.
> 
> So why did I say, no one has done it before? Because even though you can get some 3D printed community parts on Thingiverse for various mice, none of the companies made them for their mice. They let the community do it. Not that theres anything wrong with that, its just that its nice to offer some shapes to get people started. So there will be a website where you can download these shells, and other panels and so on. It takes a while to make a shell, but I'll keep on adding new ones, and there will be a community section as well, but the quality has to be high to get in, I want people to have a good experience with it.
> 
> I'll show an example of one of the shells you can download, this one weighs 63g, but it wasn't really designed to be the lightest. It was designed to be strong and simple, its designed specifically to be 3D printed, so its quite different in a few areas than an injection molded mouse (like there are areas where the plastic is quite thick). But if you wanted you could add holes to it and make it lighter.
> 
> I also didn't go crazy with the finishing, I just sanded it for about 30 mins and then painted it. It needed a little bit of adjusting but not too much. The clicks feel nice on it and its solid, I'm surprised how well they come out.
> 
> The dimensions of this mouse are: LxWxH 115x62x35.5 so its a pretty small mouse.
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/nfdE7HN
Click to expand...

Hmmmm... does this mean detachable cable too? I really wish all mice would have this feature. I really can’t see a reason not to.


----------



## bst

Klopfer said:


> maybe you @bst can make a CM Storm Spawn Shape Clone ( Xornet / Xornet II were a lil bit different too , but MM520 was huge different )


I could try it, I need the 3D scan though, then I can see if the PCBs will fit, see my previous post for software you can use, its not that hard, just need to take a bunch of photos and load them up in the program, and it'll make the model.



hotrodkungfury said:


> Hmmmm... does this mean detachable cable too? I really wish all mice would have this feature. I really can’t see a reason not to.


It has the standard 5 pin JST plug on the PCB, the reason why is because it makes it easier for people to make their own cables, and some people were concerned that a detachable cable could suffer from connection issues over time.


----------



## nyshak

bst said:


> I could try it, I need the 3D scan though, then I can see if the PCBs will fit, see my previous post for software you can use, its not that hard, just need to take a bunch of photos and load them up in the program, and it'll make the model.
> 
> 
> 
> It has the standard 5 pin JST plug on the PCB, the reason why is because it makes it easier for people to make their own cables, and some people were concerned that a detachable cable could suffer from connection issues over time.


Still counts as detachable . Have to open up the mouse, but still.


----------



## MentalOutOnline

whats the size of the astrum's pcb?


----------



## ATH-YF

https://imgur.com/a/nfdE7HN

Is that the smallest you can go with the astrum pcb? 
114mm long, *58mm* wide are the custom dimensions I'm looking for.


----------



## apa3

@bst could i just mail you a mouse shell so you can make the most accurate replica of it possible?


----------



## aCz-

@bst any updates how far is the latest test samples? are they finished and tooling is done? Been 3 weeks since last update. Just curios...


----------



## akama

aCz- said:


> @bst any updates how far is the latest test samples? are they finished and tooling is done? Been 3 weeks since last update. Just curios...


Same im curious, how is it going? Dont overwork yourself.


----------



## Avalar

:/


----------



## Avalar

Referrals page is now showing that I have 0 referrals. Rip


----------



## empyr

I don't get it. What's the hold ups now? Keep saying it's so close to being finished and then a month later something new needs changes.


----------



## lurkerguy

Yeah wish the sample models could be delivered to mouse reviewers at least so that we could get the videos up while waiting for it to be finished. Bought myself an FK2 since the waiting time was too long, decent shape and further strengthens my love for bumps in the middle but I need that WMO shape in Astrum


----------



## RyuKobs

I am getting a bit impatient myself.


----------



## rain85

i understand making something is a tricky process. but every time there is a semi-emo story followed by it is nearly finished just last touches, will be with reviewers in 2 weeks. and then dead silence for months. and then he comes up with a sob story about how this happened and that happened and this needs to be changed blah blah. i mean if its a one off sure, stuff happens but if u keep doing the same thing again and again, you are jeopardising your credibility. pro tip: never promise something unless you are 500 percent sure u can deliver.


----------



## Elrick

ATH-YF said:


> https://imgur.com/a/nfdE7HN


If that's the latest model release by BST then my wallet is bursting at the seams to buy several here.

This is perhaps the nicest looking IO replication yet made.

PLEASE pursue this shape and supply it to MAX Gaming as soon as possible for sale.

Really proud how you have listened and of course presented a very nice shape for those that still remember the famous Microsoft version from all those years ago. Most here on OCN weren't even born during that time period.

Also PLEASE no poking silly holes in your design listening to ignorant fools about making it lighter, time for those with limp wrists to work out and put some muscle on themselves, if they want to seriously Game and use this mouse. Making something so light that it eventually floats in mid air becomes ludicrous and silly, without any merit whatsoever.

If you want it to become Lighter in any way try making the shell out of Carbon Fiber, which in itself would make it the most unique design in the World today (without needing any stupid holes in the shell). I would buy it regardless of the costs involved.


----------



## hotrodkungfury

Elrick said:


> ATH-YF said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/nfdE7HN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the latest model release by BST then my wallet is bursting at the seams to buy several here.
> 
> 
> This is perhaps the nicest looking IO replication yet made.
> 
> 
> PLEASE pursue this shape and supply it to MAX Gaming as soon as possible for sale.
> 
> 
> Really proud how you have listened and of course presented a very nice shape for those that still remember the famous Microsoft version from all those years ago. Most here on OCN weren't even born during that time period.
> 
> 
> Also PLEASE no poking silly holes in your design listening to ignorant fools about making it lighter, time for those with limp wrists to work out and put some muscle on them selves, if they want to serious Game and use this mouse. Making something so light that it eventually floats in mid air becomes ludicrous and silly, without any merit whatsoever.
> 
> 
> If you want it to become Lighter in any way try making the shell out of Carbon Fiber, which in itself would make it the most unique design in the World today (without needing any stupid holes in the shell). I would buy it regardless of the costs involved.
Click to expand...

FFS, man. It’s ok to dislike holes in mice and think that lightweight mice are a superior experience at the same time. Aside from a user with Parkinson’s, I’ve honestly not heard of one legitimate and/or logical argument which gives a single advantage to heavier mice. Personal preference is by definition, purely subjective. I don’t like holes either, but I’m sure as **** glad lightweight mice are a thing. I can’t wait for the XM1 to be available.


----------



## muso

Is there any update on this mouse, this time frame is getting a bit insane, like i don't even know my indigo go account name i hope it just gets sent to the address i put in when i ordered.


----------



## Rhys7

muso said:


> Is there any update on this mouse, this time frame is getting a bit insane, like i don't even know my indigo go account name i hope it just gets sent to the address i put in when i ordered.


im losing all hope...no idea whats going on


----------



## nyshak

rain85 said:


> i understand making something is a tricky process. but every time there is a semi-emo story followed by it is nearly finished just last touches, will be with reviewers in 2 weeks. and then dead silence for months. and then he comes up with a sob story about how this happened and that happened and this needs to be changed blah blah. i mean if its a one off sure, stuff happens but if u keep doing the same thing again and again, you are jeopardising your credibility. pro tip: never promise something unless you are 500 percent sure u can deliver.


His last post on this very forum was 20 days ago. That's not exactly "silence for months". Sure, an update would be appreciated.


----------



## kr0w

Astrum timeline expected tools and testing to be done by end of Jan 2019, with an update on 12/06/2018 stating 70% complete. Eight months and counting to complete last 30%? Did he scrap the initial design and come up with something completely new? I suggest hiring a qualified project manager in future endeavors.


----------



## Klopfer

do you have money to hire people ? 
yea , its annoying that it took so long , but hey ... wayne ... Im sure we will get the mouse ...


----------



## kr0w

Klopfer said:


> do you have money to hire people ?
> yea , its annoying that it took so long , but hey ... wayne ... Im sure we will get the mouse ...


I said future endeavor ...wayne... He did the same thing with the Aurora. If this project is a success, which I see it being one because there is a niche in the Makers/gaming market for this product, he will have the tooling and capabilities to continue manufacturing the Astrum and get a nice return on the investment of time, ingenuity, etc. Then he should have the money to hire people, specifically in a manager to precisely plan out deadlines and account for realistic errors.


----------



## nyshak

kr0w said:


> I said future endeavor ...wayne... He did the same thing with the Aurora. If this project is a success, which I see it being one because there is a niche in the Makers/gaming market for this product, he will have the tooling and capabilities to continue manufacturing the Astrum and get a nice return on the investment of time, ingenuity, etc. Then he should have the money to hire people, specifically in a manager to precisely plan out deadlines and account for realistic errors.


Which will do exactly nothing. One of the biggest disadvantages for him is that he is not a big customer for the chinese factories you have to work with to build the mouse. They tell him a date and then don't deliver on time. This has happend a lot in the past, and this project here has seen this as well. No PM will change that. Ninox is not a priority over there. And likely never will be.


----------



## raghaf2007

*Updates?*

What happened? What's the status at the factory? BST?


----------



## empyr

He hasn't been on the forum in over a week. Maybe he's on Holiday. 
However, his last post that has anything to do with "timeframe" is from the 5th of July, stating that:

"I don't have the samples yet, its still going to be a few days, because it took a while to get the firmware from my engineer, I have now ordered the programmed MCUs though. After they arrive, it should be ready to go."
https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...-astrum-swapable-shells-217.html#post28026842


That's 24 days ago now without letting us know if the Final Sample is finally ready or not (?), according to this, it should be by now?


----------



## ATH-YF

Is BST even OK?
One month without news is worrisome specially knowing UK is becoming hazardous..


----------



## Avalar

ATH-YF said:


> Is BST even OK?
> One moth without news is worrisome specially knowing UK is becoming hazardous..


Hazardous how? I don't watch.


----------



## Ukkooh

ATH-YF said:


> Is BST even OK?
> One moth without news is worrisome specially knowing UK is becoming hazardous..


He posted to reddit five days ago so he should be ok. Hopefully we'll get a shipping date in the next update.


----------



## bst

Its the same old story, just taking ages. As usual.

I did get a sample, only about a week ago, so they took a silly amount of time to do that, but it wasn't good enough. Its not that bad, they just didn't do a few things I asked for. I don't really mind that much if they miss things out, as long as they don't take ages over it, but they do take ages.

I'll go through them now so you know exactly what they are:

The first and most important one is the sensor holder, it does work, the tension of it being held down holds it in place fairly well. But you can still move it with your finger if you push hard enough. Its one of those things where, yes, it would be "ok" how it is, but its not how its meant to be. You're supposed to press it into the shell so it disengages from the teeth, move it, and then the teeth help to locate it and lock it into position as it springs back down. At the moment you can see in the picture, that it'll move in the gap between the teeth. It doesn't rattle or anything like that, but over time it may move slightly, which I think is not acceptable. They need to just make it how I had it in the original model I sent to them, it worked fine.

So what happened? They made the teeth shorter, which is fairly normal, because then you can cut into the mold to gradually bring them up, until they're perfect. So basically they just didn't finish it, and probably thought it would be ok. But they don't ask me this before they make these decisions.

You can see the difference between the sample and the 3D model in the picture below. The reason the sample looks kind of broken is because I had to cut away plastic so I could get a good side view.

https://snag.gy/9PDXlH.jpg


2, Theres a little clip at the rear which holds down the top cover, and its not really tight enough. Again it doesn't rattle, and this is not really that important, if they don't do it again I'll probably leave it. But it just slides back and forth too easily (mostly when the cover is off, so not so bad, but its not good either). Its the same thing as the sensor holder, where the clip is made loose to begin with, and is gradually made tighter, but they haven't made it tighter.

https://snag.gy/fi7JXB.jpg

3, I wanted them to reduce the size of the scroll wheel holder's hole, just to make the wheel a bit quieter. Its ok how it is, but it'll just be better if its a bit smaller. Same thing again, just tightening things up.

https://snag.gy/YX70EP.jpg

4, They haven't finished the side button blanks, half of them are correct, the other half are not finished. They have these little ribs on them which go against the shell and stop them from pushing outwards. They are missing on B3/B4/A3/A4.

Strangely, they did improve them in some areas (on the rear, which you can't see). So they spend time doing things I didn't even ask for, but don't do the things I did ask for...

https://snag.gy/nmOHWd.jpg



-------------------------------------

All I know is, I don't want to make the mice until I'm happy with the tooling. I don't think anyone wants me to make them how they are now. If I knew how to make them work faster, I'd do whatever it took. But there doesn't seem to be any way. I talk to the factory pretty much every day, so they know I'm here and waiting.

The only thing I don't do so much of, but this time around I will (because there's less to do), is get into the technical details of the tooling. I don't ask for detailed reports as they're doing it. I usually wait to get the sample and then review it. Its not like they don't have the list of things I wanted right there. Btw this is not as easy as it sounds, they don't speak english, I have to ask questions or write a question sheet which has to be translated, theres not much room for back and forth discussion, and just a few slip ups and there can be huge misunderstandings, which can spend all night clearing up, so its hard to find a balance between asking too much and confusing things, and not asking enough.

-------------------------------------

Second thing is, the MCUs.
I ordered some, pre-programmed from Microchip Direct (the manufacturers of the MCU). But they took ages with it, AND it was really expensive (they send the chips from Thailand also, and charge taxes). Also they don't make it easy to get a business account either, and anyway its still expensive.

Then the factory sent me PCBs with the shell samples, so I was thinking, "At least I can try the PCBs", but no, they sent blank PCBs... lol. Like I have any use for them.

So now I have found a new supplier for the MCUs, who can pre-program them. Its cheaper because they buy them in huge quantities, and the delivery is easy because they're in Shenzhen near the factory. 

Then the factory had some problem with a chip on the sensor PCB, telling me, the sensor needs 1.9V. But I knew they had used the wrong voltage converter chip. But the engineer misunderstood me, and thought I was saying it doesn't need 1.9V, and kept saying "talk to Pixart, they will tell you", and I'm just trying to explain that he needs to use the correct chip. But he doesn't want to discuss it. It was so damn infuriating. I don't even know how they get to this point, its just weird. But eventually I did manage to get through to him, and turns out they couldn't get the chip that I wanted to use (in the past, they used ones I had supplied, but ran out and just used some random chip, like I say, I don't know what they are thinking). So now they've found a chip that works and I've checked the datasheet and it is a good replacement. They already made this change, I just thought, it shines a light on the kind of weird things I have to deal with.

Its really strange. 90% of the time, they're genuinely clever. Then they do weird things. I don't get it at all. I can only think, they are under pressure from their bosses and sometimes just have to skim over things.

-----------------------------

Maybe people are worried that I've been spending loads of money, and its all going to run out, well, just to reassure you, I haven't. I spent a bit on the mouse feet tooling ($300), and the samples of the MCUs, but that's about it. I haven't spent any more on tooling than I did originally. So the project isn't in any financial dangers.

-----------------------------

Overall, the waiting is the most disappointing thing about the whole project. There doesn't seem to be much I can do about it.

Its not really the same as the Aurora, that was a lot worse. That mouse had genuine problems, and the factory were just plain nasty. They basically messed up the firmware and refused to fix it*. It was just pathetic really. Same kind of problem though, I had no leverage with them. But they had no real confidence in me, or morals, so with that factory, not having leverage was way more dangerous than I realised at first.

(*they did in the end, but only because I didn't stop pestering them about it. Also it wasn't perfect, I wanted them to use a flashable MCU because if there were any problems, it could be fixed, but for obvious reasons they didn't want to (would mean more working on it, to fit the MCU and firmware work in future)).

This factory is just slow, but they do at least make progress, they are getting there. At least there's that. Because it could be a lot worse.

This isn't an emo post, I'm just explaining what has happened. Of course I'm not happy about it, but it'd be weird if I was. I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just reporting what happens.

I have actually had a couple of mouse companies tell me they've been through the same thing, especially when they were new. They share the same feeling of disbelief of how bad things can be. Its not just me this happens to, its just that usually I have to do my projects in public, so you get to see everything that happens. Most other mouse companies wait and wait until they're basically finished, only then do you know they were even working on something. So you never know how smoothly it went. It is also of course because I had to choose such a difficult mouse to design and tool, probably if I kept it just a normal lightweight mouse, it'd be done quite a while ago, but probably also well on its way to being copied if it was a success, too. But that's just the decision I made, even now I can't truly say I know if it was a good decision or not, but its too late to change it anyway.

I realise this is a long, rambling post, and I didn't give any ETA. But there is no way to be sure about the ETA, someone said I should be 500% sure, or not give one. But I will never be 500% sure, yet people still want an ETA. I wish the factory could give accurate ETAs, but, they don't.

Since the tooling changes are small, and they've got programmed MCUs, and they've solved that problem they had with the voltage chip, they're going to send me a new PCB, and if its all good, I'll try and get them to submit it for the FCC/CE testing, since the shell isn't going to be visually any different, it should be ok. So next week I will find out how quickly that can be done, and I'll report back.


----------



## rain85

i feel your pain

1) complicated mouse design
2) language barrier
3) factory may not as competent or up to the mark

it can be hell of frustrating.

the only thing i can think of, in this case, is the choice of factory you are dealing, did you do any background check on them, have they made any major brand or prominent gaming mice before, which would give some insight into their competence or experience, did you know before hand they cant speak English properly? were there other alternatives? and how did you make the choice, maybe pay slightly more for a more reliable and competent factory? Having to discuss complicated issues, when the two sides are not even competent in one language, is close to impossible. So you are making it work somehow, is a miracle, as there is so much chance of misunderstanding, and things getting "lost in translation". Even if everything else was the same, if they had competent English, I am sure you could have a 1v1 talk and things would improve 10 times faster.

This is the only talking point, I can think of, but now that you are stuck with them, I know it must be super frustrating. I would request the community to give him as much time as he needs, its better he produces a mouse which is flawless quality. Then get under pressure from the community to race it through the system, and then when people get it, another Pandora's box opens, of things falling apart or not working as intended. we already have a lot of choice in the market for other mice. So let him take his time, its only his third mouse, and compared to most other mice, it is not straightforward to make, lot of moving parts and stuff. don't put pressure on him to rush it. Hopefully this experience will be a huge benefit if he makes another mouse, and i am sure based on learnings on this one, the next project will be much better managed and better decisions will be made. my 2 cents. All I would ask BST is more honesty and straightforward reporting and do not commit to timelines even if you have the slightest of doubt, because then people start expecting and when expectations are not met. They start to worry, what's going on. Also even though you may be under pressure to deliver, you will make things even worse, if you try to rush the mouse. Then you would have a delayed mouse and a bad mouse. Where as now you can still have a delayed mouse but a good mouse (so this outcome is better for both the buyers and you). Once you are 100 percent satisfied, only then proceed with production. Community will be thankful in hindsight


----------



## James N

bst said:


> Its the same old story, just taking ages. As usual.


Thank you for letting us know. Personally i can understand you wanting it to be perfect, as its a very ambitious project. If some things are done wrong, it could ruin the reputation of the mouse quickly. Especially with so many things that can go wrong with this design. Other companies made mistakes on mice that were way more simplistic. So in my opinion. Make sure everything is correct and to your liking, even if takes another year (it would suck, but better than a bad end product).


----------



## bst

I think the language barrier is always an issue, if you do business in China. At some point someone won't speak English. A lot of engineers don't. Even if some do, not all do, so it'll always come to translating at some point. So generally even if it looks like everyone speaks English, I would always treat it like it'll need to be translated to someone, and that someone might be important.

My point of contact at the factory is very good at speaking English, most things are fine, really. But its just when you want to get a progress report, and you want to ask (or instruct) specific things, you have to put a lot of thought into how you ask it, and make sure you're very clear. Its not just the translation but its kind of like Chinese culture as well, the way they react to things is different than in the west. Like for example, if you asked someone to make "X" in the west, they'd probably ask you a bunch of questions to make sure they got it right, and they'd ask questions along the way. But in China, they'd (pretty much) just say, "Ok", and then fill in the gaps at their discretion. So the problem is usually, figuring out how to structure things so they cover everything, but aren't too complex.

The thing is with the factory is, I don't have any major issues with them, they're slow (actually its not the "mouse" factory, but the tooling factory which is slow), but I think most of the other problems or difficulties are very common, and like I said they can be so much worse, the mouse has gone well aside from the speed, nothing has actually come out badly. So I'm just thankful for that. There are better factories out there, of course, when it comes to pure ability. But there are lots of factors to consider. A lot of factories wouldn't want to get involved with this project, its too low volume, and its complicated, and the best factories have much more important customers even if you do get in.

If they can get the things sorted that I asked for, then it'll be fine. It's frustrating because the mouse is already good, just those little things holding it back.


----------



## ryan92084

That's just about the same story I've heard form every kickstarter type company that has to deal with tooling, molds, and factories. They do things you didn't ask for while not getting done what you wanted. They just don't do smaller precision orders in a timely fashion.


----------



## untouchable247

Take your time, sort everything out, I'm sure we'd all rather wait a little longer for a mouse we can get excited aboout than get just another good one with some issues now.


----------



## hisXLNC

good update, i had predicted september but im thinking november/december at the earliest now. not complaining, id rather quality then a rushed job. if the quality is there, ill probably grab a second after release


----------



## ATH-YF

I feel you man. 
Thanks for the needed update as tech customers we tend to take things for granted.

Why not solving the communication barrier by getting help from someone from the community??
If those factory guys could avoid dealing with the English COMPLETELY it can prevent them from doing freestyle changes & execute more carefully the requests.


With all that backstage info the project looks ambitious even for a big brand considering the quality requirements and technicalities.


Your insight on the process would make a great story for a video documentary btw. Some of the big names on Youtube should take the opportunity once the mice is launch.

It makes me realize why the big names are so hesitant implementing customer feedback, it might seems simple but can be a wild ride just for "small" changes.

Well, take the time but keep us on the light, community can be resourceful in unexpected ways.


----------



## bst

ATH-YF said:


> I feel you man.
> Thanks for the needed update as tech customers we tend to take things for granted.
> 
> Why not solving the communication barrier by getting help from someone from the community??
> If those factory guys could avoid dealing with the English COMPLETELY it can prevent them from doing freestyle changes & execute more carefully the requests.


I don't really mind their freestyle changes, most of them are good. I do have to give them a certain amount of leeway, since they do this every day and know it much better than I do. If I try to take too much control, it can have bad results too.

If I had an engineer who could translate, it'd be much better. A lot of the problems come down to my point of contact not being able to understand the technicalities. She gets confused over engineering terms. So the engineers dumb things down for her, then she passes it onto me, and there's not enough detail. So I have to kind of squeeze the details out. Its not her fault really, she tries her best.




ATH-YF said:


> With all that backstage info the project looks ambitious even for a big brand considering the quality requirements and technicalities.
> 
> Your insight on the process would make a great story for a video documentary btw. Some of the big names on Youtube should take the opportunity once the mice is launch.
> 
> It makes me realize why the big names are so hesitant implementing customer feedback, it might seems simple but can be a wild ride just for "small" changes.
> 
> Well, take the time but keep us on the light, community can be resourceful in unexpected ways.


Yeah, it is too ambitious really. I didn't realise at the time. I don't want to do another one like this, at least, not any time soon.

It would be cool to do a video explaining the whole process of making a mouse. I think people would be surprised how much can go into it.

Once you have a mouse working, and its all good, I think it is difficult to send it away to be changed, unless its a major issue. You might be getting people working on it who didn't work on it before, and don't know certain things. Or there might end up being some problem, or something that causes a huge delay. But really big companies can probably just make a new mold while the other one(s) are still running, I suppose it depends how well the mouse is selling, if they can justify it or not.


----------



## pez

bst said:


> *snip*


You mentioned it before, but what's the best way to change the address of the mouse shipment? Would an OCN PM work or would you like it another way? I've moved since backing and would like to at least make sure I get it to the right place .


----------



## bst

pez said:


> You mentioned it before, but what's the best way to change the address of the mouse shipment? Would an OCN PM work or would you like it another way? I've moved since backing and would like to at least make sure I get it to the right place .


You can change your address by doing the following, the only thing you can't change is the country. If you need to change the country, pm me your new address.

Login to Indiegogo
Click on your name on the upper-right hand corner of the page
Click on 'My Contributions'
Find the perk you'd like to change your address on and click on 'View Contribution Details'
Click on the 'Edit Shipping Address' button on the left side of the contribution,
Complete the changes you need to make to the address, and be sure to click 'Save'


----------



## pez

bst said:


> You can change your address by doing the following, the only thing you can't change is the country. If you need to change the country, pm me your new address.
> 
> Login to Indiegogo
> Click on your name on the upper-right hand corner of the page
> Click on 'My Contributions'
> Find the perk you'd like to change your address on and click on 'View Contribution Details'
> Click on the 'Edit Shipping Address' button on the left side of the contribution,
> Complete the changes you need to make to the address, and be sure to click 'Save'


Oh that was so easy I feel bad for asking now . Thanks for rewarding my laziness .


----------



## chort

I hate to bump the thread, but even if there's no update you can atleast notify us what's up and where the project is stuck.
I'd hate to see anyone who supported it in the hopes of getting it in time and probably already bought a new mouse by now have to just wait for even the smallest of updates.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

Could we get an update on this project? @bst Just curious to read where everything is


----------



## bst

I should be getting some samples quite soon. Just hoping they done everything I asked for. If they did, then the actual mouse itself will be finished. There will still be things to do, but at least I can show the mouse and send some out for reviewers to have a look at.

The thing is the project isn't really stuck, I mean its not like there's some problem that hasn't been solved, its simply that they take ages to adjust the tooling. They work on it at a snails pace, and there's not much I can do about it. That's been the problem for months now. I explain it more in this post.

They said it would be ready last week, so they aren't far away. I'm guessing this week it'll be ready, then they have to post the samples.


----------



## gipetto

@bst Any chance you could publish the click latency figures for the astrum using bloodys software?


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> @bst Any chance you could publish the click latency figures for the astrum using bloodys software?


I'll do it when the new PCB comes, that'll be the final one so best one to test it on. Should be in a few days. Last time I tested it vs the Venator it was around 8-12ms faster, was surprising. Hope its still the same!


----------



## SD2

Hey I'm thinking about pre-ordering the luna grey one. Do you by any chance have some pictures of it other than the one on the site?


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> I'll do it when the new PCB comes, that'll be the final one so best one to test it on. Should be in a few days. Last time I tested it vs the Venator it was around 8-12ms faster, was surprising. Hope its still the same!


How many prototypes will you send out? And whom is going to recieve one / if you have a list of "reviewers" already?


----------



## bst

SD2 said:


> Hey I'm thinking about pre-ordering the luna grey one. Do you by any chance have some pictures of it other than the one on the site?


I should be getting all the colours soon, I've had to get the colours redone because the factory changed suppliers. I will post up photos as soon as I have them.

If you're curious about the shade of grey, it's very similar to Audi Nardo Grey, but more of a matte due to it being rubber.
Like this: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/93/ad/8d/93ad8db307fc3b3fc72064416ba8f537.jpg



empyr said:


> How many prototypes will you send out? And whom is going to recieve one / if you have a list of "reviewers" already?


They haven't told me how many prototypes yet, it should be at least 8, since there are 8 colours. I do have a list of reviewers, but I have been holding off contacting them yet, I'm waiting to see how many I get. If you have any reviewers who you'd like to see, let me know.

I still like RJN, I'm going to ignore the whole FM/Glorious etc thing  I think the mouse is probably too large for him, but I do think he'll do a decent job reviewing it.
Also it'd be nice for these people to review it: menismyforte, justnvc, randomfrankp, there was also prosettings.net, for text based review. I kind of want to send a black knight to jayztwocents since he's making a dark knight build PC it'd go well with, I know he's not a mouse reviewer per se, but well I just like him, and its nice to hear from someone who isn't 'really' into mice if you know what I mean, just for another perspective. But idk if he'll be interested. In the same kind of vein, linus tech tips would be nice too. But idk if these larger youtubers like doing crowdfunded stuff until its actually done.

There are others who I'll send out to if I have enough.

They won't really be "proper" reviews, since they'll be pre-production mice, anything that they think should be changed, can be. It'd be nice for them to do a follow up on the final production mouse when it comes out.


----------



## SD2

Alright I'll wait for the photos before pre-ordering then, thanks for the info. You could also sell shapes that are in high demand on your website in the future (ie if enough people want grippy sides you could sell those on the site).


----------



## SD2

I think for the reviewers, Brandon Taylor and Badseed Tech would both be really good. Their reviews are good quality and I think they'd do a great job reviewing your mouse.


----------



## Ukkooh

I'd love to see Beardedbob review it. His reviewing style is a bit different from the more mainstream ones.


----------



## gunit2004

SD2 said:


> I think for the reviewers, Brandon Taylor and Badseed Tech would both be really good. Their reviews are good quality and I think they'd do a great job reviewing your mouse.





Ukkooh said:


> I'd love to see Beardedbob review it. His reviewing style is a bit different from the more mainstream ones.


Fully agree with the above 2 posts. Great reviewers.

The days of RJN are dwindling... no offence to him, his videos are decent but there are much better reviewers coming up right now that put in a lot of effort and detail into their videos.


----------



## James N

Consider sending Ino. one. I know his channel doesn't offer nearly as much views as the others mentioned. But at least his reviews are conclusive and a little bit more technical and not just flashy lighting and some charismatic dude reading the box.


----------



## SD2

I think you should see how you can get the widest audience to see it, as this is basically the marketing for the mouse. It doesn't matter how good your mouse is, you still need people to find it.


----------



## qsxcv

i could review


----------



## Avalar

Doubt you'd be bothered cuz I'm not popular on anything, but so could I. ;D


----------



## aCz-

Brandon Taylor is one of the worst reviewers out there imo. He is getting sponsored / getting stuff for free and selling out on them. Just like he did on that full TUF gaming PC build. Some mice reviews he skips all bad rep on the seller. Even your model is good, you still to make some warnings for people who are willing to buy product. Just my opinion. RJN did same with finalmouse and he got so much backlash it wasnt even funny. Even keyboard reviews. Most of the time it's all about aesthetics not quality. The reviews them self could be ok for newer buyers or people actually looking to change something. But people who are looking for quality stuff, naa, he is no bringing it. 

Anyway, sell out reviews are not my cup of tea.


----------



## bst

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.



qsxcv said:


> i could review


Ok, thanks, it'd be good to have some in depth performance analysis. No one else does it like you 



Avalar said:


> Doubt you'd be bothered cuz I'm not popular on anything, but so could I. ;D


Pretty much, sorry  have to get the most out of each one.


----------



## ryan92084

as long as there is at least one technical reviewer the rest is all just who gets the best exposure


----------



## charlieputh

hi since i love the mouse and everything about it except the weight as currently using the air 58 anyway we can get the 3d printed parts from your site etc if we pay for it etc as I love the size and everything just want to reduce the weight when I get it


----------



## bst

charlieputh said:


> hi since i love the mouse and everything about it except the weight as currently using the air 58 anyway we can get the 3d printed parts from your site etc if we pay for it etc as I love the size and everything just want to reduce the weight when I get it


What you can do is download the 3D files from the Ninox site, then upload them to someone like 3DHubs, they will print it locally for you, and you can choose the material and resolution of the print.

The funny thing is though, the Astrum feels much lighter than it is, I think maybe because its weight is quite well distributed, or its grip is so simple. I have lightweight mice from 50-70g and it feels to me like its around 60g when I pick them up and compare them, its only when I actually weigh them that the extra weight shows itself. I think grip style changes it quite a bit, if I grip it quite far back, it starts to feel more like its actual weight, but if I claw or palm it then it feels a lot lighter.


----------



## Elrick

ryan92084 said:


> as long as there is at least one technical reviewer the rest is all just who gets the best exposure


Why not get this cool guy to review it;






He's open to any paid sponsorship and has huge popularity with the 'young' :thumb:


----------



## the1freeMan

Rofl cuz he don't know squat about half the things he talks about? Actually they have a mouse guy on the team that seemed competent. Hope he's still there.


----------



## bst

I like Linus and would be more than happy if he would review it, I know his reviews aren't going to be the same as a dedicated mouse reviewer, but that's ok, and like ryan92084 said, if there is already a good technical review, then other reviews don't have to go so in depth, and they help with publicity.


----------



## gene-z

What's the deal for those that missed the crowd funding campaign? Can we pre-order anywhere, or will we have to wait longer?


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

Is 2020 too optimistic guys?


----------



## Ukkooh

gene-z said:


> What's the deal for those that missed the crowd funding campaign? Can we pre-order anywhere, or will we have to wait longer?


You can still buy them from indiegogo.


----------



## Zakman

@bst any updated samples yet?


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> @bst any updated samples yet?


They sent me a couple of samples on Tuesday, hopefully they'll arrive tomorrow. If they're good I'll send one out to a reviewer, and they'll send me some more.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> They sent me a couple of samples on Tuesday, hopefully they'll arrive tomorrow. If they're good I'll send one out to a reviewer, and they'll send me some more.


Sounds good, let us know if you're happy with the samples and if they're the final ones! Been holding off a Skoll purchase in case you give the order for the Astrum to start mass production.


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> They sent me a couple of samples on Tuesday, hopefully they'll arrive tomorrow. If they're good I'll send one out to a reviewer, and they'll send me some more.


Today? :>


----------



## frunction

This still isn't out? lul


----------



## bst

I got the sample today, they sent me loads of shells but only one PCB which was in an assembled mouse.

Overall its good, I still have a couple of issues with it though. I haven't had time yet to properly inspect it because it didn't arrive that long ago.

The two issues I have are the adjustable sensor, looks like they didn't even touch it, and somehow the weight has gone up quite a lot (was 78g now 88g), but it could just be because they've adapted a finalmouse cable to it, they've extended it inside and its all bunched up, they also put 4 magnets in which it doesn't need.

Other than that they did do everything else I asked. So it's really just one thing they missed.

So again its a mix of happiness and disappointment, I don't know why they haven't done anything with the sensor, will have to ask them on Monday.

I've attached some photos and taken a video of the mouse, showing the clicks and so on. You can see in the video the mouse doesn't rattle or creak and is very solid, the clicks and scroll are nice too. 

I have an idea how they can sort out the adjustable sensor quite easily so I'm going to try to get them to do that fast, it really doesn't need much. (just as a side note, I did check that they had done it, but I think theres some misunderstanding, I think as far as they're concerned, its working fine, so when I ask if they've fixed it, they just say yes. I think they misunderstand how its meant to work, they think you just slide it along to adjust the sensor position, but actually you're meant to push it in and slide it along, so it can disengage from its locating teeth. So they probably think if they make the teeth longer, its not going to work. So I just have to try to convince them that it will ).

Here's the video:


----------



## Avalar

Holy crap those sound great.


----------



## charlieputh

88 grams oh god even 78 is super heavy 

clicks sound amazing thou


----------



## Zakman

Looks and sounds beautiful bst, it's gonna be well worth the wait. Is the adjustable sensor the last thing that needs sorting? Scroll wheel to your liking, modular parts fit comfortably in and can be taken out comfortably etc?

And did they actually put magnets in randomly? A bit of a strange thing to do.


----------



## 508859

bst said:


> I got the sample today, they sent me loads of shells but only one PCB which was in an assembled mouse.
> 
> Overall its good, I still have a couple of issues with it though. I haven't had time yet to properly inspect it because it didn't arrive that long ago.
> 
> The two issues I have are the adjustable sensor, looks like they didn't even touch it, and somehow the weight has gone up quite a lot (was 78g now 88g), but it could just be because they've adapted a finalmouse cable to it, they've extended it inside and its all bunched up, they also put 4 magnets in which it doesn't need.
> 
> Other than that they did do everything else I asked. So it's really just one thing they missed.
> 
> So again its a mix of happiness and disappointment, I don't know why they haven't done anything with the sensor, will have to ask them on Monday.
> 
> I've attached some photos and taken a video of the mouse, showing the clicks and so on. You can see in the video the mouse doesn't rattle or creak and is very solid, the clicks and scroll are nice too.
> 
> I have an idea how they can sort out the adjustable sensor quite easily so I'm going to try to get them to do that fast, it really doesn't need much. (just as a side note, I did check that they had done it, but I think theres some misunderstanding, I think as far as they're concerned, its working fine, so when I ask if they've fixed it, they just say yes. I think they misunderstand how its meant to work, they think you just slide it along to adjust the sensor position, but actually you're meant to push it in and slide it along, so it can disengage from its locating teeth. So they probably think if they make the teeth longer, its not going to work. So I just have to try to convince them that it will ).
> 
> Here's the video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6iGet_EECY


getting wet seeing those. I hope they will be dispatched this year


----------



## bst

charlieputh said:


> 88 grams oh god even 78 is super heavy


It doesn't feel heavy, but it was never meant to be super light. If you compare it to the model o, you trade in 10 grams or so for the other features, like the adjustable sensor position, no holes in the shell, ability to change parts (and make it lighter if you wanted).

If you have a 3D printer or a friend with one, you can also print off one of the lighter shells for it, there is one that weighs less than 50g (but it has holes).

If you have a fingertip grip, and don't need to use side buttons, you can always just remove the outer shell and it weighs about 60g



Zakman said:


> Looks and sounds beautiful bst, it's gonna be well worth the wait. Is the adjustable sensor the last thing that needs sorting? Scroll wheel to your liking, modular parts fit comfortably in and can be taken out comfortably etc?
> 
> And did they actually put magnets in randomly? A bit of a strange thing to do.


Yes I'm completely happy with everything except the adjustable sensor. It's exceeded my expectations, really. There's not much else left to do, the packaging is finished, stickers, mouse feet, and so on. The actual mouse just needs two things, the adjustable sensor fixed, and it needs the FCC/CE certification.

There is a space at the front for magnets, basically there was an issue at the start, the side parts of the shell had a couple of clips that help hold then in at the front, which go into a couple of small indents in the bottom shell (its a bit hard to describe). But basically they weren't coming out well. We had to widen the base of the shell to make it work, and the factory also suggested adding magnets. I agreed to add the magnet holders because the holders themselves barely add any weight, and I thought its a nice option to have, maybe if someone 3D prints a side panel, they might find a use for magnets there. So the end of the story is, once the tooling for the little clips had been fixed, I didn't see any need for the magnets in the mouse, but happy to keep the holders. So all that has happened is they've put the magnets in the holders on this mouse, so I just have to remind them not to do it for production. The magnets are something an enthusiast can buy from ebay, they're just little 5.5mm x 1.5mm discs that don't need any adhesive.


----------



## scorp81

Buttons sound crisp!


----------



## hisXLNC

bst said:


> It doesn't feel heavy, but it was never meant to be super light. If you compare it to the model o, you trade in 10 grams or so for the other features, like the adjustable sensor position, no holes in the shell, ability to change parts (and make it lighter if you wanted).
> 
> If you have a 3D printer or a friend with one, you can also print off one of the lighter shells for it, there is one that weighs less than 50g (but it has holes).
> 
> If you have a fingertip grip, and don't need to use side buttons, you can always just remove the outer shell and it weighs about 60g
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I'm completely happy with everything except the adjustable sensor. It's exceeded my expectations, really. There's not much else left to do, the packaging is finished, stickers, mouse feet, and so on. The actual mouse just needs two things, the adjustable sensor fixed, and it needs the FCC/CE certification.
> 
> There is a space at the front for magnets, basically there was an issue at the start, the side parts of the shell had a couple of clips that help hold then in at the front, which go into a couple of small indents in the bottom shell (its a bit hard to describe). But basically they weren't coming out well. We had to widen the base of the shell to make it work, and the factory also suggested adding magnets. I agreed to add the magnet holders because the holders themselves barely add any weight, and I thought its a nice option to have, maybe if someone 3D prints a side panel, they might find a use for magnets there. So the end of the story is, once the tooling for the little clips had been fixed, I didn't see any need for the magnets in the mouse, but happy to keep the holders. So all that has happened is they've put the magnets in the holders on this mouse, so I just have to remind them not to do it for production. The magnets are something an enthusiast can buy from ebay, they're just little 5.5mm x 1.5mm discs that don't need any adhesive.


1. couldnt you send this for certification while the factory does the sensor concurrently? 

2. you should post an update on indiegogo with this information i think.

Also, that white looks really nice. I might have to pick up another in white now


----------



## cdcd

Clicks sound very nice and crisp, great job.


----------



## bst

hisXLNC said:


> 1. couldnt you send this for certification while the factory does the sensor concurrently?
> 
> 2. you should post an update on indiegogo with this information i think.
> 
> Also, that white looks really nice. I might have to pick up another in white now


I will get it certified as soon as I can, the factory were still making changes to the PCB with this sample (making it easier for them to assemble in mass production), so I just need to confirm with them that its final. When you get a mouse certified, they take photos of the PCB, so it pretty much voids the certificate if you change it afterwards.

I'll post an update to Indiegogo on Monday morning, that way it'll give me a chance to talk to the factory first.

The mouse in the photos and video isn't white, it's the grey rubber colour, I think the photos just didn't capture it very well, probably a little bit too high exposure. The video on youtube is more accurate.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Here's the video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6iGet_EECY



Like it - a lot, when is it going on sale at Max Gaming?


----------



## Pirx

nice. will buy one.


----------



## lainx

Man those clicks are too good.


----------



## ATH-YF

The shell looks so tight compared to what the market offer currently (hard to believe it's modular) and the click sounds are superb.

May I suggest to sell separate buttons shell and wheel rubber in white, it will help with mod consistency.


----------



## charlieputh

bst said:


> It doesn't feel heavy, but it was never meant to be super light. If you compare it to the model o, you trade in 10 grams or so for the other features, like the adjustable sensor position, no holes in the shell, ability to change parts (and make it lighter if you wanted).
> 
> If you have a 3D printer or a friend with one, you can also print off one of the lighter shells for it, there is one that weighs less than 50g (but it has holes).
> 
> If you have a fingertip grip, and don't need to use side buttons, you can always just remove the outer shell and it weighs about 60g


Oh that sounds good where should I get it 3d Printed as I don't have the printer

could you explain what setting too choose 50 grams sounds amazing 

I heavily use the side buttons and palm/finger grip so can't do that


----------



## duhizy

Yeah you should really think about producing more shells that can be purchased as addons on your future website. Many people would pick up a shell with holes in it to reduce weight. You could double your profits fairly easily by producing mods that people will just HAVE to buy with the standard copy.


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> Like it - a lot, when is it going on sale at Max Gaming?


Thanks Elrick, they'll go straight to max gaming as soon as I receive them, I don't have an exact date for that yet, but as soon as I do I'll let you know.



ATH-YF said:


> The shell looks so tight compared to what the market offer currently (hard to believe it's modular) and the click sounds are superb.
> 
> May I suggest to sell separate buttons shell and wheel rubber in white, it will help with mod consistency.


What I could do is ask the factory to put in an extra set of front buttons, I can't really be bothered to sell them because they're too small and cheap 

For the mouse wheel, I'll probably just leave it black for now, just because all the little things build up, and the factory already has enough to do, but it is a good idea, it'd be nice to have a few different colours.



charlieputh said:


> Oh that sounds good where should I get it 3d Printed as I don't have the printer
> 
> could you explain what setting too choose 50 grams sounds amazing
> 
> I heavily use the side buttons and palm/finger grip so can't do that


There will be links with the shells you can download, where you can get them 3D printed. For example on 3dhubs.com, you just upload the file, and choose what material you want it printed in, and it'll find a local printer who'll print it and ship it to you.

You will be able to download entire replacement shells which completely change the size and shape of the mouse, and there will also be replacement panels for the Astrum, like ones with holes in. The panels with holes in are just one piece parts that clip on, so they have the sides and the top cover fused together, means they'll be stronger. Its the way I would recommend people make parts.

There are two versions of the "holey" panels, one clips onto the inner shell (skeleton) of the Astrum, and the other type replaces the skeleton entirely, its a bit more involved, but saves more weight.



duhizy said:


> Yeah you should really think about producing more shells that can be purchased as addons on your future website. Many people would pick up a shell with holes in it to reduce weight. You could double your profits fairly easily by producing mods that people will just HAVE to buy with the standard copy.


For now I'm just going to offer free 3D printable files to download, if a shape proves to be popular, then could look into getting it injection molded. But 3D printing is getting better, I think maybe in about 2 years it'll be very viable to just buy a PCB and 3D print a shell. It gives everyone more choice, mostly now its not the design process which holds back the amount of different mice that a company can sell, but the tooling and having to buy in thousands of them. You can offer loads of different shapes if you don't have to do that. I think its a bit early for it though, so the Astrum is kind of mid way there, it comes with its own shell, but the PCB will fit a lot of 3D printed shells too.


----------



## SD2

I think that if you can, you should try to find where the extra weight comes from, as 78 grams would be way better than the 88 you'd have now. I think for marketing, or for a video of the astrum, you should also show the lightweight shell with holes in it and showcase it's low weight, because then it could ride the hype of lightweight mice a bit.
Also, if I'd 3d print a part for my astrum, I wouldn't have the original coating, so is there anything I could do to get the same coating on those parts too?


----------



## charlieputh

@bst

oh great what material should It get printed on for the best weight and feel?

thanks


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Thanks Elrick, they'll go straight to max gaming as soon as I receive them, I don't have an exact date for that yet, but as soon as I do I'll let you know.


There will always be a separate account kept for your Mouse Model purchases, here in Convict Town. 

As long as I'm alive there will always be another added procession of Ninox mice, growing around our newly made PC setup's.


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> The two issues I have are the adjustable sensor, looks like they didn't even touch it, and somehow the weight has gone up quite a lot (was 78g now 88g), but it could just be because they've adapted a finalmouse cable to it, they've extended it inside and its all bunched up, they also put 4 magnets in which it doesn't need.


it can't be that hard to figure out what made the difference...


----------



## bst

SD2 said:


> I think that if you can, you should try to find where the extra weight comes from, as 78 grams would be way better than the 88 you'd have now. I think for marketing, or for a video of the astrum, you should also show the lightweight shell with holes in it and showcase it's low weight, because then it could ride the hype of lightweight mice a bit.
> Also, if I'd 3d print a part for my astrum, I wouldn't have the original coating, so is there anything I could do to get the same coating on those parts too?


The coating is a bit tricky, but it mostly uses standard colour codes for car paint. So you can order cans of it from ebay, or take it to a paint shop and have them spray it (or they might also be able to supply you with a colour matched paint, or at least give you a paint code which is similar).

A lot of the colours are Audi colours, like Nardo Grey, Ara Blue, Glacier White, Panther Black (but most blacks or whites will work with these), the red is Alfa Romeo Rosso Competizione Tri-Coat, the green is a Rover colour, have to look it up (can't remember it off the top of my head). The only problem colour is the purple, that was colour matched from some vinyl I liked.

To get the matte effect, try and get some matte clear coat, and for extra matte effect spray a thin final coat from a further distance so it kind of dusts it, if the coat is really wet then it'll come out more glossy.



charlieputh said:


> @bst
> 
> oh great what material should It get printed on for the best weight and feel?
> 
> thanks


I usually just go with ABS, but you could use resin which is usually more accurate and needs less finishing (sanding etc). There are some really nice printers coming out which make parts really cleanly. Its one of those things where it depends what you want from it. ABS is really tough and it behaves a lot like normal mouse plastic (since it's the same material), and it can be sanded down to a really smooth surface. Resin can be very different, some are not as rigid as ABS, but some are even more rigid (almost brittle). You can get very accurate prints with polyjet resin but its super expensive. Resin tends to be a little bit heavier than ABS, but not by much.



qsxcv said:


> it can't be that hard to figure out what made the difference...


It looks like its coming from a lot of places, pretty much everywhere, unfortunately. Lots of little changes adding up.
- The PCB was redesigned, and this is the first time I've seen it. Its a much better PCB than the original, but it has added a fair bit of weight, due to it having full copper pours and lots of vias added, also the front connectors are more robust. The thing is I do like it, its a good PCB, I don't really want to change it 
- The cable and magnets do weigh a bit
- There are also some areas where the plastic needed to be made thicker to reduce surface imperfections, but this has added some weight.

I am making a spreadsheet at the moment to see all the differences, but I think its going to be difficult to change it by much. I think probably the main factor is the adjustable sensor position, because it causes the PCB to be quite extensive, it could probably have been a fair bit lighter without that. It was ok at first, but after all the changes during tooling, the mouse really needed more wiggle room with its weight, which the adjustable sensor has taken, if that makes sense. But it does also mean that because the sensor is separate from the MCU PCB, the PCBs can be adapted to more shapes, so it does help out with modding.


----------



## bst

I have talked to the factory about the sensor holder, on closer inspection they did adjust the tooling, but it wasn't enough to make it secure. As I suspected, they didn't understand how it was meant to work, so didn't want to potentially ruin the mouse by doing what I asked. I have now sent them some diagrams of how it's meant to work, and they understood. I wish they had just asked me about it, instead of coming to their own conclusion.

You can see the diagram I sent them in the attached file. They thought it went from step 1, straight to step 4 (so they were afraid it'd be stuck if the teeth were too large), and didn't know about steps 2 and 3. I had already explained this to them, but I guess they just didn't remember. I don't know how long it'll take them to do this, but since its just one small thing, hopefully it won't be long.


----------



## bst

The factory has changed the USB connector on the PCB to a non-standard size, its slightly smaller than the usual JST connector. They said they can't use the larger one because the SMT machine had trouble placing it.

The reason why is, its not like a normal mouse, the connector is underneath the top PCB, so if you can imagine, its quite hard to make a double sided PCB (components on both sides).

I can get them to include a spare connector in the box with the mouse, so you can adapt a paracable to it, but it might be a bit much for some people to deal with. I'm not very up to date on the paracord shops - is it usually a problem if the connector isn't the normal size, or do they make cords with different connectors?


----------



## Zakman

I wouldn't sacrifice all the improvements you've made for a few grams of weight. If you can get it between 80-85g then that's still really really good.


----------



## iBerggman

bst said:


> I can get them to include a spare connector in the box with the mouse, so you can adapt a paracable to it, but it might be a bit much for some people to deal with. I'm not very up to date on the paracord shops - is it usually a problem if the connector isn't the normal size, or do they make cords with different connectors?


I'd assume it wouldn't be much of a problem since they already have to stock different size connectors, the Rival 310 for example already uses a non standard JST 1.25 connector and some older mice use the 1.5 as opposed to the normal 2.0 so it wouldn't be the first to deviate from the standard size.


----------



## 508859

iBerggman said:


> I'd assume it wouldn't be much of a problem since they already have to stock different size connectors, the Rival 310 for example already uses a non standard JST 1.25 connector and some older mice use the 1.5 as opposed to the normal 2.0 so it wouldn't be the first to deviate from the standard size.


not a biggie indeed, if you have a bare minimum of skill to unplug your cable, you should also be able to unplug those wires and put them in smaller connector


----------



## winz0r

Zakman said:


> I wouldn't sacrifice all the improvements you've made for a few grams of weight. If you can get it between 80-85g then that's still really really good.


I'm going to have to disagree with this, 80-85g isn't an acceptable weight nowadays. Also it was sold as a "below 80g regardless of the configuration" which is fair to assume the lightest configuration would be closer to 70 than it is to 80 but it doesn't look like that's the case anymore. I'm a fair bit disappointed to be honest especially since you won't be able to mod much weight out of it if you want to keep it functional.

On the topic of cables, I'm of the opinion that shoe lace cables are grossly overrated. Flexibility isn't the great feature that everyone makes out to be. You can really utilize a bit of rigidity to be able to shape to however you like and then it stays in place.
This way the cable doesn't swing left and right and the small bit of resistance is always consistent as opposed to all those shoe lace cables. G100s cable is far better than paracord if well utilized. The 2 biggest factors to truly make it feel wireless despite being wired is the thickness and weight, not flexibility.


----------



## chort

Zakman said:


> I wouldn't sacrifice all the improvements you've made for a few grams of weight. If you can get it between 80-85g then that's still really really good.


unfortunately that's not "really really good" considering how much the industry has improved in terms of weight.
if we ignore all of the finalmeme drilled mouse trend and we look at the latest light weight mice, you have:
gpro wireless at 78-80g, which is undeniably an incredible achievement.
aorus m2 at 78g
dm3 mini at 77g
xm1 endgame at 70g
razer viper at 69g

and the list goes on if you count all the 80-85g.
the whole point was a lightweight modular mouse, not just a modular mouse.
there's is only so much you can compromise with a kickstarter before it becomes a different project, considering the amount of time it actually took to get to this stage that the compromises are made.


----------



## 508859

winz0r said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with this, 80-85g isn't an acceptable weight nowadays.


it is acceptable, since absolute majority of produced and sold (gaming) mice are 80g+. it is just not what I've funded. If it would be within 80g (by default) I would be happy, no need to exaggerate the market situation and benefits of weight reduction. 



winz0r said:


> On the topic of cables, I'm of the opinion that shoe lace cables are grossly overrated. Flexibility isn't the great feature that everyone makes out to be. You can really utilize a bit of rigidity to be able to shape to however you like and then it stays in place.


and here is where you are a minority. 
lighter the mouse gets, more impact it will have from rubber cable, doesn't matter how thin or flexible it is. 
I did not see a rubber cable that is more convenient than shoe lace, even good zowie cable is far inferior to mediocre model o/ air58 ones.


----------



## bst

The thing is I think people struggle to see how awesome the mouse is, even if it weighs more. I admit it's not the easiest vision to see though.

I had a similar problem when I made a 70g mouse about 6 years ago before FM even existed, no one cared about lightweight back then.

The fact is, the more popular this mouse is, the better it gets, because its not "one" mouse, its mostly just a PCB that can have almost anything built around it.

Imagine for example, if when glorious made the model O-, they just optionally sold the shell for £10 and the Model O PCB just fits inside it. Or you want to change to a lightweight shell, its even easier since it just clips on, and you don't have to buy a whole new mouse.

Its not necessarily intended to directly compete with lightweight mice, its meant to move the game on. There isn't much innovation going on right now.

I see a lot of people who have bought 10+ mice, which is around £500 worth (£50x10), but if you can buy new shapes and change things up for £10 a pop its not bad, mostly people don't need to worry about the sensor anymore, so to buy a mouse for £50 each time is spending £40 on something you already have, since you mostly just wanted the shell.


----------



## SD2

winz0r said:


> Zakman said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the topic of cables, I'm of the opinion that shoe lace cables are grossly overrated. Flexibility isn't the great feature that everyone makes out to be. You can really utilize a bit of rigidity to be able to shape to however you like and then it stays in place.
> 
> 
> 
> This way the cable doesn't swing left and right and the small bit of resistance is always consistent as opposed to all those shoe lace cables. G100s cable is far better than paracord if well utilized. The 2 biggest factors to truly make it feel wireless despite being wired is the thickness and weight, not flexibility.
Click to expand...

Ive owned shoelace cables and thick and stiff ones, and I must say that 'shoelace cables' are a really big improvement and honestly incredibly important.


----------



## winz0r

Yes they are definitely an improvement over the thick heavy ones. They're not an improvement over the thin light ones.


----------



## 508859

winz0r said:


> Yes they are definitely an improvement over the thick heavy ones. They're not an improvement over the thin light ones.


they are improvement over both, if you do not think so, you can always replace your shoe lace with whatever you want. just don't try to enforce your exotic tastes, please.


----------



## winz0r

numberfive said:


> they are improvement over both, if you do not think so, you can always replace your shoe lace with whatever you want. just don't try to enforce your exotic tastes, please.


Nobody is enforcing anything. I'm stating an opinion and so are you. Nothing wrong with that.

Cables being too flexible make them wiggle left and right at any movement creating an inconsistent resistance feeling. Consistency is everything.

You mentioned Zowie's cables in an earlier post and I agree they're bad in comparison to a flexible shoe lace cable. Shoe lace cables are much better than industry standards. They're infinitely better than Steelseries', Zowie's, Wired G Pro, G303, DM's and many others but they're not quite as good as a well utilized G100S' or Abyssus/Salmosa in making it feel as close to wireless as possible in feeling for the reasons above.

I wish you could try my setup and realize how closer it is to a wireless feeling than it is with any other shoe lace cable.


----------



## 508859

winz0r said:


> Nobody is enforcing anything. I'm stating an opinion and so are you. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Cables being too flexible make them wiggle left and right at any movement creating an inconsistent resistance feeling. Consistency is everything.
> 
> You mentioned Zowie's cables in an earlier post and I agree they're bad in comparison to a flexible shoe lace cable. Shoe lace cables are much better than industry standards. They're infinitely better than Steelseries', Zowie's, Wired G Pro, G303, DM's and many others but they're not quite as good as a well utilized G100S' or Abyssus/Salmosa in making it feel as close to wireless as possible in feeling for the reasons above.
> 
> I wish you could try my setup and realize how closer it is to a wireless feeling than it is with any other shoe lace cable.


it cannot be closer (to wireless) than not feeling any cable at all, like it is with paracord 

zowie cables are not the worst on the market tho.


----------



## SD2

Also, on the subject of how to coat the mouse, how would that go for the rubber coating, if I'd want the same feel as the original coating?


----------



## hisXLNC

i was hoping for sub 80g weight tbh, kinda a bummer


----------



## charlieputh

i think everyone would buy the light weight shells from you if you sold them yourself i wouldn't even mind paying a premium as am sure others wouldn't for the ease of mind of it fitting right etc


----------



## ATH-YF

bst said:


> The thing is I think people struggle to see how awesome the mouse is, even if it weighs more. I admit it's not the easiest vision to see though.
> 
> I had a similar problem when I made a 70g mouse about 6 years ago before FM even existed, no one cared about lightweight back then.
> 
> The fact is, the more popular this mouse is, the better it gets, because its not "one" mouse, its mostly just a PCB that can have almost anything built around it.
> 
> Imagine for example, if when glorious made the model O-, *they just optionally sold the shell for £10 and the Model O PCB just fits inside it.* Or you want to change to a lightweight shell, its even easier since it just clips on, and you don't have to buy a whole new mouse.
> 
> Its not necessarily intended to directly compete with lightweight mice, *its meant to move the game on*. There isn't much innovation going on right now.
> 
> I see a lot of people who have bought 10+ mice, which is around £500 worth (£50x10), but if you can buy new shapes and change things up for £10 a pop its not bad, mostly people don't need to worry about the sensor anymore, so to buy a mouse for £50 each time is spending £40 on something you already have, since you mostly just wanted the shell.


Giving the ability for the customer to swap shell by bringing their own using 3D printing services is a mouth watering paradigm shift.
The Haute Couture era for mices could start officially with the Astrum Launch I sense. 
It could also help revive (& recycle thanks Earth) some of the already sold models since it will also help implement new coatings, paints, textures.. did you saw those beautiful paint car mods??



> no one cared about lightweight back then.


 WRONG.
My Aurora being used for heavy gaming I care about lightweight (more that the buttons feel actually) that's why it's still on the desk instead of the FK2/G203. (It's one of the reasons I suggested you to go smaller right away as it give you room to work with, you're overlooking that feature imo)

suggestion: Why not providing 1 honeycomb variant in the box? 
That way you can stay on your spec announcement, show the weight potential & ride the hype while giving ppl choice. 

More than the weight, I think the issue is more about keeping spec promises for backers (notice the market has evolved quite a bit since the Astrum announcement), It might not be a deal breaker for enthusiast but in term of public communication this will hurt a bit the launch.
.
.
.
In-the-box color variants for side/dpi buttons.. yes!
For the rubber wheel we can find options online but we need to know it's diameter and width. (google rubber rings)


----------



## RaleighStClair

@bst sent you a PM for a refund on the Astrum, could you send me a PM.


Thanks.


----------



## Avalar

RaleighStClair said:


> @bst sent you a PM for a refund on the Astrum, could you send me a PM.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


lmao rip u


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> It looks like its coming from a lot of places, pretty much everywhere, unfortunately. Lots of little changes adding up.
> - The PCB was redesigned, and this is the first time I've seen it. Its a much better PCB than the original, but it has added a fair bit of weight, due to it having full copper pours and lots of vias added, also the front connectors are more robust. The thing is I do like it, its a good PCB, I don't really want to change it
> - The cable and magnets do weigh a bit
> - There are also some areas where the plastic needed to be made thicker to reduce surface imperfections, but this has added some weight.
> 
> I am making a spreadsheet at the moment to see all the differences, but I think its going to be difficult to change it by much. I think probably the main factor is the adjustable sensor position, because it causes the PCB to be quite extensive, it could probably have been a fair bit lighter without that. It was ok at first, but after all the changes during tooling, the mouse really needed more wiggle room with its weight, which the adjustable sensor has taken, if that makes sense. But it does also mean that because the sensor is separate from the MCU PCB, the PCBs can be adapted to more shapes, so it does help out with modding.


1. you might try working with a thinner pcb. logitech uses very thin (like 0.8mm or something) pcbs in their wireless mice.
2. idk how strong magnets you want but the total weight of magnets in the mouse shouldn't be over 2g
likewise the weight of the section of cable inside the mouse shouldn't be very much...
3. i think shell thickness should be responsible for most of the difference.

i feel it should be possible for to achieve <80g but it seems like the risk is with communicating with the factory and possibly further delays?
since they managed an increase in the weight without your asking, maybe just express to them that you'd like keep weight to <80g or as low as possible, and have them figure it out instead of telling them anything too specific...


----------



## 508859

RaleighStClair said:


> @bst sent you a PM for a refund on the Astrum, could you send me a PM.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


I hope you do realize that you funded a project, not pre-ordered a mouse


----------



## bst

RaleighStClair said:


> @bst sent you a PM for a refund on the Astrum, could you send me a PM.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


Hi, I'm sorry I didn't reply to your PM yet. Its not so easy to refund because I can't directly refund back to your card, it has to be by bank transfer.

Also its difficult to refund for the reason of not wanting the perk anymore, because if I refund you, then other people might start to want one too. At some point I have to say no because it puts the project in danger, and I can't refund everyone, so it would be a disaster where lots of people don't get their money back. So it is better to say no straight away, IMO.

Having said that, if you have a good reason, like maybe you're getting evicted because you can't pay rent, or some other serious reason you might need the money back, then I will make an exception. But I would need proof, because, then anyone can just say, "I'm getting evicted", and its the same problem as before - if at some point I would have to ask for proof, then I should always ask for it. Sorry 



qsxcv said:


> 1. you might try working with a thinner pcb. logitech uses very thin (like 0.8mm or something) pcbs in their wireless mice.
> 2. idk how strong magnets you want but the total weight of magnets in the mouse shouldn't be over 2g
> likewise the weight of the section of cable inside the mouse shouldn't be very much...
> 3. i think shell thickness should be responsible for most of the difference.
> 
> i feel it should be possible for to achieve <80g but it seems like the risk is with communicating with the factory and possibly further delays?
> since they managed an increase in the weight without your asking, maybe just express to them that you'd like keep weight to <80g or as low as possible, and have them figure it out instead of telling them anything too specific...


1. I have talked to the factory about making the PCB thinner a while ago, just because, why not  But they said the thinnest they can go is 1.2mm. At the time I didn't bother with it because it doesn't save much weight. It might be a bit tricky to do it now though, because it means changing quite a few parts, all the PCB holders have to be adjusted to suit the new height (everything has to be raised 0.4mm). I think maybe its a delay risk. One thing I can do from looking at the PCB is put some holes in it, there are some areas in the top PCB which are blank.

2. Yes I weighed them, they're 1.12g, so not really a big deal.

3. Yes, it's just lots of incremental bits on the shell, and the PCB went up a couple of grams since last time.

The mouse is in bits at the moment because I just weighed each part, its coming out at 84.71g for the Alpha shell, 87.05g for the Beta shell, 86.74g for the Beta shell with the Gamma right side. (those weights include the magnets, and for the cable, I weighed one I had cut just after the stress relief).

A full cover honeycomb 3D print of the Beta shell leaves the original parts at 44g (it allows removing a lot), and the 3D printed cover is 15g, so works out at 59g total. Here is what is removed for this part: https://snipboard.io/W9rap4.jpg
It'd be really nice to injection mold it and include it in the box, but don't have the funds unfortunately.

Heres a link to a spreadsheet with all the different weights broken down, if anyone wants to look at it. You can check tickboxes to add/remove parts, and change the weights to see how it affects things:
https://we.tl/t-GQSUI5nx7x


----------



## SD2

If you could just charge more for an option to get the shape with holes in it in the box, that'd already be great, as it'll probably get more people interested too.


----------



## bst

SD2 said:


> If you could just charge more for an option to get the shape with holes in it in the box, that'd already be great, as it'll probably get more people interested too.


It's a good idea, but its quite difficult to figure out how I'd do it.

Firstly a couple of points:
- They would have to be injection molded, so I think the cost for the tooling would be around $8000 (it could be less, not sure until I ask). Its pointless to try and 3D print it, unless the demand is really low, and it wouldn't be any different to people just using 3D hubs themselves, they could even print it now.
- I don't think time is as much of an issue as I thought it'd be, because it could be tooled when the mouse is being assembled, and then just put in the boxes at the end, or given its own box if its an add on.

The problem is how to get the funds for it.

If I add it as a perk, then it messes up how to add it in the box, because some people will buy the perk, and some won't, and I can't really have two separate boxes, I mean I could but with all the different colours already, it'd be a nightmare.

So I think it is best for it to be an add on, with free shipping (since the only people who'd buy it would have already bought the mouse).

But that means that if I charge $10 per shell, then it'll need to sell 800 of them to pay for the tooling. Then, if it doesn't reach 800, it'd be a pretty big problem because it won't be able to happen. If it gets close to the tooling cost its not so bad, but if it ends up just being a quarter then I don't think there would be enough funds to do it.

I'll look into it though. If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears


----------



## chort

bst said:


> It's a good idea, but its quite difficult to figure out how I'd do it.
> 
> Firstly a couple of points:
> - They would have to be injection molded, so I think the cost for the tooling would be around $8000 (it could be less, not sure until I ask). Its pointless to try and 3D print it, unless the demand is really low, and it wouldn't be any different to people just using 3D hubs themselves, they could even print it now.
> - I don't think time is as much of an issue as I thought it'd be, because it could be tooled when the mouse is being assembled, and then just put in the boxes at the end, or given its own box if its an add on.
> 
> The problem is how to get the funds for it.
> 
> If I add it as a perk, then it messes up how to add it in the box, because some people will buy the perk, and some won't, and I can't really have two separate boxes, I mean I could but with all the different colours already, it'd be a nightmare.
> 
> So I think it is best for it to be an add on, with free shipping (since the only people who'd buy it would have already bought the mouse).
> 
> But that means that if I charge $10 per shell, then it'll need to sell 800 of them to pay for the tooling. Then, if it doesn't reach 800, it'd be a pretty big problem because it won't be able to happen. If it gets close to the tooling cost its not so bad, but if it ends up just being a quarter then I don't think there would be enough funds to do it.
> 
> I'll look into it though. If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears


3d printing it might be the way if it's cheap enough, not everyone have the ability or the availability to 3d print, so you shouldn't assume that.


----------



## SD2

@bst If I'd want to rubber coat new mouse parts, do you think regular rubber coat spray paint would do the trick?


----------



## bst

chort said:


> 3d printing it might be the way if it's cheap enough, not everyone have the ability or the availability to 3d print, so you shouldn't assume that.


Compared to injection molding, 3D printing is expensive and slow, when its for mass production.

Once you have the tooling for molding, the price for each part is tiny, and can make loads of them fast. But with 3D printing, its always slow and always expensive. Its much better for very small amounts.

I think most people should have access to some kind of 3D printer, like their friends, or some company on the internet like 3DHubs.



SD2 said:


> @bst If I'd want to rubber coat new mouse parts, do you think regular rubber coat spray paint would do the trick?


I'm not sure, the rubber coating the factory uses is kind of like a soft touch coating, so not really rubber. I've never seen it on sale for the public before. I'll ask them about it and see what they say.

Probably the best one I know of is the clear matte fulldip or plastidip, you paint whatever colour you want underneath, then put on the clear rubber, or you can get someone to mix the colour into the clear, but usually you need a proper spray gun for that.


----------



## ATH-YF

> But that means that if I charge $10 per shell, then it'll need to sell 800 of them to pay for the tooling. Then, if it doesn't reach 800, it'd be a pretty big problem because it won't be able to happen. If it gets close to the tooling cost its not so bad, but if it ends up just being a quarter then I don't think there would be enough funds to do it.


..Crowdfunding? 
(for this refunding in case of failure)

Why not starting a poll asking the backers (and another poll asking non backers) if they want the additional weight-reduced parts to be manufactured for the launch?
Even without buying the mouse I can surely donate a bit to help the project in this case.
Provide up-to-date news (with the video why not) of the weight challenge & link to this topic so they can get the whole situation.

Announcing ~65g upgrade, as a response of the issue, will be way more forgiving on the launch delay, It's surely worth trying. 
Peoples who are waiting nervously will be very pleased with this & could feel less "left behind" by what is going on.


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> The mouse is in bits at the moment because I just weighed each part, its coming out at 84.71g for the Alpha shell, 87.05g for the Beta shell, 86.74g for the Beta shell with the Gamma right side. (those weights include the magnets, and for the cable, I weighed one I had cut just after the stress relief).


84-85g is alright i suppose, as logi g pro is 83g
i guess it's sort of a mental thing, but 88g is close enough to 90 which feels like a tier up

i'm not sure what FR PCB means; i'm guessing right side button pcbs? since most people don't use right side buttons, that's a free 3g that could be saved by opening the mouse


----------



## bst

ATH-YF said:


> ..Crowdfunding?
> (for this refunding in case of failure)
> 
> Why not starting a poll asking the backers (and another poll asking non backers) if they want the additional weight-reduced parts to be manufactured for the launch?
> Even without buying the mouse I can surely donate a bit to help the project in this case.
> Provide up-to-date news (with the video why not) of the weight challenge & link to this topic so they can get the whole situation.
> 
> Announcing ~65g upgrade, as a response of the issue, will be way more forgiving on the launch delay, It's surely worth trying.
> Peoples who are waiting nervously will be very pleased with this & could feel less "left behind" by what is going on.


I was thinking that crowd funding would take too long, but thinking about it, it probably is the best way. I realised as long as it hits the goal (and exceeds to some safe margin), then I don't have to wait until the end to get the funds, because I have enough to do it already. I would still need those funds to come later because it would be needed to pay for the shipping costs, but I only need them at the end, when all the mice are finished.



qsxcv said:


> 84-85g is alright i suppose, as logi g pro is 83g
> i guess it's sort of a mental thing, but 88g is close enough to 90 which feels like a tier up
> 
> i'm not sure what FR PCB means; i'm guessing right side button pcbs? since most people don't use right side buttons, that's a free 3g that could be saved by opening the mouse


I know what you mean, going 5g over doesn't seem so bad, but the extra 2-3 grams to 87-88, even though its "only" 2-3 grams, looks much worse. 

I've attached a photo of the PCBs. FR PCB is the front right PCB, it has the front right button switch and scroll wheel switch, and FL PCB has the front left button switch and scroll wheel encoder.

The top PCB has the MCU, side buttons, DPI button, and RGB LED for the scroll wheel.


----------



## qsxcv

nice, i like how everything is so modular. maybe in the future you can sell individual pcbs with different sensors or switches


----------



## lurkerguy

87g is super disappointing ngl, at that point it's more than the original WMO from which many people are coming from

I think majority of people would be fine waiting some more if you managed to get it back to sub 80g without holes


----------



## empyr

Having used mice between that range, and way below, I don't think I'd ever really use an Astrum if it's not below the 80grams. :x


----------



## untouchable247

TL;TR

Why is it so heavy?


----------



## ATH-YF

A lot seems to be going on inside. Between the various mechanisms and 4-part PCB I'm not so surprised, more holding areas seems to be required and there is less surface to cut weight off.


Side observation: I have to say despite the 74g on the Aurora I feel the shell is still THICK specially at the top. A honeycomb structure combined with a thin blanket could be an idea to bring the best of both designs. Usually the bottom half of the mices have the most room to tweak weight without ruining it's integrity.


----------



## bst

untouchable247 said:


> TL;TR
> 
> Why is it so heavy?


Just incremental additions during the tooling process, ofc they know I wanted it under 80g, but I don't think they take it so seriously 



ATH-YF said:


> A lot seems to be going on inside. Between the various mechanisms and 4-part PCB I'm not so surprised, more holding areas seems to be required and there is less surface to cut weight off.
> 
> 
> Side observation: I have to say despite the 74g on the Aurora I feel the shell is still THICK specially at the top. A honeycomb structure combined with a thin blanket could be an idea to bring the best of both designs. Usually the bottom half of the mices have the most room to tweak weight without ruining it's integrity.


For its size and what it's doing, it is pretty light, its a similar sort of size to an FK1, does a lot more and is lighter.

You can't do the thin blanket over honeycomb unfortunately, the way injection molding works, its either holes or no holes. If you tried to give the honeycomb holes a thin blanket, there would be indents (sink marks) where the honeycomb structure is, it'd look pretty bad. You could do it maybe with an extremely complicated mold which shoots temperature controlled water around the areas where you get sink marks, to control the rate of cooling so it all matches, which is probably how the GPW mold works.

I think as it is at the moment, the only things I can do to get the weight down on the Astrum are the following:
- 0.8mm PCB -6.3g
- Include optional smaller feet -1.5g
- Remove magnets -1.12g

= 8.82g, so then the weights would be:

Alpha: 76.5g
Beta: 77.5g
Gamma: 77g

I'll see if they'll give in to making the PCB 0.8mm thick tonight, they might be able to do it if I tell them how important it is.


----------



## Avalar

Don’t understand the big deal with the weight, and if it were up to me, I wouldn’t make too many compromises to get it below 80g if there really isn’t room to spare.

“Regular” buyers are probably getting the mouse more so for its unique features than its weight, which is still low. Lots of them are probably coming from stuff like the G502 anyway, or older FPS mice that are about the same weight (85-90ish). Willing to bet most of them won’t care that it’s 5-8g over 80g.

Enthusiasts who want a lower weight but still really want to use the mouse will probably buy replacement pieces that are lighter to achieve a lower weight. I mean, these are the people who probably bought several different versions of the mouse on the Indigogo page anyway.

Idk, I would just be disappointed if the best/defining features of the mouse, like how good the clicks are, sensor position adjusting, etc. had to be made worse just to get rid of a few grams. I understand that on a bigger mouse where the weight is well balanced, a few more grams wouldn’t be as noticeable. I think users who wouldn’t want to use a mouse the size of the Astrum at that weight wouldn’t find it being their main mouse even with a lower weight, and would switch back to something smaller.

And bst has plans to make an even smaller mouse which will be even lighter... I mean, you’ve waited this long, right?


----------



## bst

Well 0.8mm PCB shouldn't really affect anything. I don't know why they said no before, back then it wasn't really needed, so I didn't pressure them about it. Sometimes no means, "we can but we don't want to unless you really need it", and sometimes it means, "we really can't", but you don't find out unless you keep asking  

What I can do to keep the clicks the same, is see if they'd leave the front button PCBs at 1.6mm. They're so small that going to 0.8mm isn't going to make much difference anyway.

After thinking about it some more, I also probably won't remove the magnets, because that will allow people to use the mouse without the top cover, which lowers the weight by 9-10g (fingertippers might like that). If the magnets aren't there, then the sides can come away without the top cover to hold them in place. The magnets are easy to remove if you don't want them.

That should still allow it to be below 80g, and keep the original specification.


----------



## qsxcv

can't be that hard to increase button plungers by 0.8mm right? i have no idea tho.

but yea it seems like a thinner pcb might be one of the easier ways to reduce weight


----------



## cdcd

Around 80g would be good simply for keeping the weight consistent with a WMO. I'm sure there are many people who backed the Astrum mainly because they want it as a WMO replacement, and they wouldn't want higher weight.


----------



## lurkerguy

Weight sounds good with the thinner PCB and should satisfy everyone even if slightly above 80g, thanks for asking them. Now we can be hype for the mouse again


----------



## charlieputh

Avalar said:


> Don’t understand the big deal with the weight, and if it were up to me, I wouldn’t make too many compromises to get it below 80g if there really isn’t room to spare.
> 
> “Regular” buyers are probably getting the mouse more so for its unique features than its weight, which is still low. Lots of them are probably coming from stuff like the G502 anyway, or older FPS mice that are about the same weight (85-90ish). Willing to bet most of them won’t care that it’s 5-8g over 80g.
> 
> Enthusiasts who want a lower weight but still really want to use the mouse will probably buy replacement pieces that are lighter to achieve a lower weight. I mean, these are the people who probably bought several different versions of the mouse on the Indigogo page anyway.
> 
> Idk, I would just be disappointed if the best/defining features of the mouse, like how good the clicks are, sensor position adjusting, etc. had to be made worse just to get rid of a few grams. I understand that on a bigger mouse where the weight is well balanced, a few more grams wouldn’t be as noticeable. I think users who wouldn’t want to use a mouse the size of the Astrum at that weight wouldn’t find it being their main mouse even with a lower weight, and would switch back to something smaller.
> 
> And bst has plans to make an even smaller mouse which will be even lighter... I mean, you’ve waited this long, right?


I had a ultralight pro when I backed this now have the model O - coming in and currently on the air 58 i Genuinely do care about the weight as do atleast quite abit of the people. with a mouse this good weight is also a defining feature of a good mouse now . it actually makes such a big difference in aiming and ease of use

but as bst said he would make the files with lower weight available for all so as to get them 3d printed so I don't see it as much of an issue

* personally would pay for the lower weight modules to be avaiable directly from him rather than have to go through a third party


----------



## 508859

Avalar said:


> Don’t understand the big deal with the weight, and if it were up to me, I wouldn’t make too many compromises to get it below 80g if there really isn’t room to spare.
> 
> “Regular” buyers are probably getting the mouse more so for its unique features than its weight, which is still low. Lots of them are probably coming from stuff like the G502 anyway, or older FPS mice that are about the same weight (85-90ish). Willing to bet most of them won’t care that it’s 5-8g over 80g.
> 
> Enthusiasts who want a lower weight but still really want to use the mouse will probably buy replacement pieces that are lighter to achieve a lower weight. I mean, these are the people who probably bought several different versions of the mouse on the Indigogo page anyway.
> 
> Idk, I would just be disappointed if the best/defining features of the mouse, like how good the clicks are, sensor position adjusting, etc. had to be made worse just to get rid of a few grams. I understand that on a bigger mouse where the weight is well balanced, a few more grams wouldn’t be as noticeable. I think users who wouldn’t want to use a mouse the size of the Astrum at that weight wouldn’t find it being their main mouse even with a lower weight, and would switch back to something smaller.
> 
> And bst has plans to make an even smaller mouse which will be even lighter... I mean, you’ve waited this long, right?


g502 owners are not the target audience for this. and it weight 121g without additional weights.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> Well 0.8mm PCB shouldn't really affect anything. I don't know why they said no before, back then it wasn't really needed, so I didn't pressure them about it. Sometimes no means, "we can but we don't want to unless you really need it", and sometimes it means, "we really can't", but you don't find out unless you keep asking
> 
> What I can do to keep the clicks the same, is see if they'd leave the front button PCBs at 1.6mm. They're so small that going to 0.8mm isn't going to make much difference anyway.
> 
> After thinking about it some more, I also probably won't remove the magnets, because that will allow people to use the mouse without the top cover, which lowers the weight by 9-10g (fingertippers might like that). If the magnets aren't there, then the sides can come away without the top cover to hold them in place. The magnets are easy to remove if you don't want them.
> 
> That should still allow it to be below 80g, and keep the original specification.


Is it difficult creating thinner PCBs? And would doing so compromise anything?


----------



## Elrick

cdcd said:


> Around 80g would be good simply for keeping the weight consistent with a WMO. I'm sure there are many people who backed the Astrum mainly because they want it as a WMO replacement, and they wouldn't want higher weight.


Couldn't care about the weight issue because I'm use to moving heavy objects (professionally) so this latest Mouse Model, has to stick truthfully to the WMO shape above all else.

Of course decent switches (huano) and a solid clicky-scroller will help to make this release even more supreme, compared to all the other shapes currently available to the end user.

Just miss having the WMO using a modern sensor, how badly that is wanted at my place. Even the ankle-biters would love to use a re-released WMO, for the 21st Century.


----------



## RaleighStClair

"Hi, I'm sorry I didn't reply to your PM yet. Its not so easy to refund because I can't directly refund back to your card, it has to be by bank transfer.

"Also its difficult to refund for the reason of not wanting the perk anymore, because if I refund you, then other people might start to want one too. At some point I have to say no because it puts the project in danger, and I can't refund everyone, so it would be a disaster where lots of people don't get their money back. So it is better to say no straight away, IMO."

"Having said that, if you have a good reason, like maybe you're getting evicted because you can't pay rent, or some other serious reason you might need the money back, then I will make an exception. But I would need proof, because, then anyone can just say, "I'm getting evicted", and its the same problem as before - if at some point I would have to ask for proof, then I should always ask for it. Sorry"
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



No problem. I can't get a refund because I am not some hood rat that has no money. But this indigogo/kickstarter of your mouse has become a complete clusterfck. Not only is it a year late, it is now not going to be close to what was described in the indiegogo. My current mouse is 60g's in weight. What is the point of your mouse if it is as heavy as a Zowie? Zowie will def have a better shape -- and be cheaper; this ''project'' cost me over 100$ -- and now you WONT be lighter than zowie, you WONT have a better shape than an FK2/EC2.

You can buy an Model0- FK2 that weighs 58g's. You can buy a EC2A clone called Skoll that is 68g's in weight. What is the purpose of this mouse now? You made the wait for this mouse a year too late. Your competitors have passed you by. There are too many good options now. I can't get a refund, but now I am stuck waiting for a product that is too late to market that I wont use -- that is now going to be +15g of weight compared to the initial specs. If the goal - which I assume most people wanted - was to have a Zowie shape that is lighter, cheaper, then you have been beaten to the market over the last year and this indiegogo has failed... miserably.

By the time this mouse hits market at 80g+, we will be on 40g mice.


----------



## empyr

I feel where you're coming from RaleighStClair. I've been wanting to get a refund for ages, however I was aware that it's been noted that you can't.

Overall, the mouse has taken way too long to produce, regardless of the issues that came up. I'm aware that's how backing projects this way usually go, but overall, a lot of things on the original list has changed. Speaking for myself personally, I don't see myself using it anymore now that are so many good options available and more coming. 

Astrum is a fantastic idea and project nevertheless, I applaud you for doing it bst. However, I really do think you need to figure out a way to bring it back down to the 75-78 grams in all shapes. 

Hopefully they actually see the light of day this year, but I'm actually a little bit afraid of how much import will be, and especially considering I won't use the mouse anymore. I imagine that's going to be fairly steep. :x


----------



## RaleighStClair

For the new page.

"Hi, I'm sorry I didn't reply to your PM yet. Its not so easy to refund because I can't directly refund back to your card, it has to be by bank transfer.

"Also its difficult to refund for the reason of not wanting the perk anymore, because if I refund you, then other people might start to want one too. At some point I have to say no because it puts the project in danger, and I can't refund everyone, so it would be a disaster where lots of people don't get their money back. So it is better to say no straight away, IMO."

"Having said that, if you have a good reason, like maybe you're getting evicted because you can't pay rent, or some other serious reason you might need the money back, then I will make an exception. But I would need proof, because, then anyone can just say, "I'm getting evicted", and its the same problem as before - if at some point I would have to ask for proof, then I should always ask for it. Sorry"
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____



No problem. I can't get a refund because I am not some hood rat that has no money. But this indigogo/kickstarter of your mouse has become a complete clusterfck. Not only is it a year late, it is now not going to be close to what was described in the indiegogo. My current mouse is 60g's in weight. What is the point of your mouse if it is as heavy as a Zowie? Zowie will def have a better shape -- and be cheaper; this ''project'' cost me over 100$ -- and now you WONT be lighter than zowie, you WONT have a better shape than an FK2/EC2.

You can buy an Model0- FK2 that weighs 58g's. You can buy a EC2A clone called Skoll that is 68g's in weight. What is the purpose of this mouse now? You made the wait for this mouse a year too late. Your competitors have passed you by. There are too many good options now. I can't get a refund, but now I am stuck waiting for a product that is too late to market that I wont use -- that is now going to be +15g of weight compared to the initial specs. If the goal - which I assume most people wanted - was to have a Zowie shape that is lighter, cheaper, then you have been beaten to the market over the last year and this indiegogo has failed... miserably.

By the time this mouse hits market at 80g+, we will be on 40g mice.


----------



## chort

RaleighStClair said:


> For the new page.
> 
> "Hi, I'm sorry I didn't reply to your PM yet. Its not so easy to refund because I can't directly refund back to your card, it has to be by bank transfer.
> 
> "Also its difficult to refund for the reason of not wanting the perk anymore, because if I refund you, then other people might start to want one too. At some point I have to say no because it puts the project in danger, and I can't refund everyone, so it would be a disaster where lots of people don't get their money back. So it is better to say no straight away, IMO."
> 
> "Having said that, if you have a good reason, like maybe you're getting evicted because you can't pay rent, or some other serious reason you might need the money back, then I will make an exception. But I would need proof, because, then anyone can just say, "I'm getting evicted", and its the same problem as before - if at some point I would have to ask for proof, then I should always ask for it. Sorry"
> __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
> 
> 
> 
> No problem. I can't get a refund because I am not some hood rat that has no money. But this indigogo/kickstarter of your mouse has become a complete clusterfck. Not only is it a year late, it is now not going to be close to what was described in the indiegogo. My current mouse is 60g's in weight. What is the point of your mouse if it is as heavy as a Zowie? Zowie will def have a better shape -- and be cheaper; this ''project'' cost me over 100$ -- and now you WONT be lighter than zowie, you WONT have a better shape than an FK2/EC2.
> 
> You can buy an Model0- FK2 that weighs 58g's. You can buy a EC2A clone called Skoll that is 68g's in weight. What is the purpose of this mouse now? You made the wait for this mouse a year too late. Your competitors have passed you by. There are too many good options now. I can't get a refund, but now I am stuck waiting for a product that is too late to market that I wont use -- that is now going to be +15g of weight compared to the initial specs. If the goal - which I assume most people wanted - was to have a Zowie shape that is lighter, cheaper, then you have been beaten to the market over the last year and this indiegogo has failed... miserably.
> 
> By the time this mouse hits market at 80g+, we will be on 40g mice.


even though I am quite dissapointed with the project by now, you are wrong on many points here, it was never about a zowie shape or the lightest possible mouse (although it should be as light as it possibly can without damaging integrity and the main functions of the mouse).
it was suppose to be a modular mouse that is centered around esports with an adjustable sensor position, which is 2 things the mainstream mouse market still don't have, and it seems like won't have in the near future, so it should appeal to the people that care about modularity and sensor position first, only then you can talk about THIS specific mouse being as light as possible, you can't have all the mentioned things and an ultralight weight.
but I can understand the frustration because it is a year overdue at the very least.


----------



## RaleighStClair

chort said:


> even though I am quite dissapointed with the project by now, you are wrong on many points here, it was never about a zowie shape or the lightest possible mouse (although it should be as light as it possibly can without damaging integrity and the main functions of the mouse).
> it was suppose to be a modular mouse that is centered around esports with an adjustable sensor position, which is 2 things the mainstream mouse market still don't have, and it seems like won't have in the near future, so it should appeal to the people that care about modularity and sensor position first, only then you can talk about THIS specific mouse being as light as possible, you can't have all the mentioned things and an ultralight weight.
> but I can understand the frustration because it is a year overdue at the very least.


 > you are wrong on many points here

No, we just have a difference of opinion. Everyone I know that backed this project - at the time - wanted a lighter, better, FK2/EC2. Now I am not sure what features you found most appealing about the project (i assume the adjustable sensor) but that doesn't make me "wrong". We have different goals/emphasis on what makes this project important. For example, I wanted a lightweight FK2 with: better scrollwheel, clicks, mousefeet, a mouse that included a "paracord" like cable out-of-the-box. This is also what most people - that I know - wanted; whether it be an Fk2 or EC2 shape. No one I know that backed this project even mentioned an adjustable sensor.

We just have different priorities.


----------



## Avalar

RaleighStClair said:


> > you are wrong on many points here
> 
> No, we just have a difference of opinion. Everyone I know that backed this project - at the time - wanted a lighter, better, FK2/EC2. Now I am not sure what features you found most appealing about the project (i assume the adjustable sensor) but that doesn't make me "wrong". We have different goals/emphasis on what makes this project important. For example, I wanted a lightweight FK2 with: better scrollwheel, clicks, mousefeet, a mouse that included a "paracord" like cable out-of-the-box. This is also what most people - that I know - wanted; whether it be an Fk2 or EC2 shape. No one I know that backed this project even mentioned an adjustable sensor.
> 
> We just have different priorities.


The point of the project was to make a lightweight modular mouse for gaming. The features it has now came through later idea swapping on OC. It was never stated when the project first started that "This is a mouse for those who want a lighter/better FK2/EC2"; it's not even the same shape... The way the scrollwheel, clicks, mousefeet and cable feels can all be subjective, based on the user's preferences, however, most people would agree that other companies do it better.

"This is also what most people - that I know - wanted; whether it be an Fk2 or EC2 shape. No one I know that backed this project even mentioned an adjustable sensor."

To me, it just sounds like you didn't know what you were getting when you backed the project. All of the information for the mouse is on the page .


----------



## iBerggman

Exactly, the reason I backed the project is because of the modularity and modularity alone, the weight being under 80g is a nice additional bonus but honestly I probably would've backed it even if it was up to 100g since that's what I'm used to anyway. I've been experimenting with creating shapes that perfectly fit my hand and the Astrum would be a game changer for that since I don't have to "ruin" a shell by sticking something like sugru on it. With the modularity I could just 3d print the new shape and go back to original in a minute if I don't end up liking it. Additionally, if you wanted to go as lightweight as possible there's probably going to be a shell for that, it's just that this will allow you to do that but also easily switch right back to a large ergonomic shape with side buttons on both sides if you wanted to. Not to mention the fact that it's pretty much the only (or the only?) mouse that in addition to that will allow you to change the sensor position. That was the main idea for this project and always will be, it was never supposed to be a "Finalmouse killer" or WMO/FK clone for that matter even though it somehow was made out to be that.


----------



## chort

RaleighStClair said:


> > you are wrong on many points here
> 
> No, we just have a difference of opinion. Everyone I know that backed this project - at the time - wanted a lighter, better, FK2/EC2. Now I am not sure what features you found most appealing about the project (i assume the adjustable sensor) but that doesn't make me "wrong". We have different goals/emphasis on what makes this project important. For example, I wanted a lightweight FK2 with: better scrollwheel, clicks, mousefeet, a mouse that included a "paracord" like cable out-of-the-box. This is also what most people - that I know - wanted; whether it be an Fk2 or EC2 shape. No one I know that backed this project even mentioned an adjustable sensor.
> 
> We just have different priorities.


claiming I am wrong on every single point while not having a clue on what you are commenting on.
that's a solid argument attempt.
considering NONE of the shapes offered were like the fk or ec, and the weight offered was barely lower than the ones zowie offers (78 grams vs 90 on the ergo beta vs ec2-a respectively and 77 vs 84 on the ambi beta vs fk2 respectively).
what was unique was the modularity and the adjustable sensor position.
you are probably not very attentive as a person because you missed the point of everything I wrote and project as a whole.
and no I didn't care about the sensor positioning, I just like the WMO shape and wanted to support the project.


----------



## RaleighStClair

chort said:


> claiming I am wrong on every single point while not having a clue on what you are commenting on.
> that's a solid argument attempt.
> considering NONE of the shapes offered were like the fk or ec, and the weight offered was barely lower than the ones zowie offers (78 grams vs 90 on the ergo beta vs ec2-a respectively and 77 vs 84 on the ambi beta vs fk2 respectively).
> what was unique was the modularity and the adjustable sensor position.
> you are probably not very attentive as a person because you missed the point of everything I wrote and project as a whole.
> and no I didn't care about the sensor positioning, I just like the WMO shape and wanted to support the project.


 > claiming I am wrong on every single point while not having a clue on what you are commenting on.

How on earth did you arrive at that notion reading my reply? Is Engrish not your first language?


----------



## a_ak57

For one, Zowie was never one of the companies people were expecting this to emulate - the beta shape for instance was always supposed to be a clone of the WMO with some overhang. The alpha shape is supposed to be like Logitech's G100 and others. And whether those are worse than Zowie shapes is 100% preference. 

It was also never advertised as a super lightweight mouse - it was expected to be something like 78g (even on the Indiegogo page it just say it'll be under 80g). When this project launched, the only prominent swiss cheese mouse was Finalmouse's Ultralight v1 (not even the Air58), so it's revisionist history to act like the market had accustomed to mice being so light. As long as it was under 80g people would be happy (at the time the GPW was still considered lightweight at 80g). Heck even during the talk of panels, the idea of adding ultralight ones didn't come up until recently after the market started getting flooded.

Not to mention, after the recent talk where BST mentioned it's now sitting at around 88g he also then said that he's working on getting it back to the original weight. This and the fact that you claim an adjustable sensor was something you were never aware of when backing the project make it seem like you skip random paragraphs when reading or something.

To me the only legitimate gripe someone can have with this project (other than not agreeing with the original vision) is the timeline. I never expected it to release on time since best-case dates are always given for kickstarters, but I figured we would have at least gotten it in the spring.


----------



## Elrick

a_ak57 said:


> To me the only legitimate gripe someone can have with this project (other than not agreeing with the original vision) is the timeline. I never expected it to release on time since best-case dates are always given for kickstarters, but I figured we would have at least gotten it in the spring.


Fully expected this to go on for months or even years simply because everyone's expectations would surface hence BST has tried to incorporate them, as well as he can considering the reality of actual manufacturing the mouse from scratch. Until anyone here on this forum deals with Chinese Companies, when it comes to building ANYTHING at all the first hurdle will always be language and custom's.

Their world is very different to ours here in the Western Sphere. Hence we expect constant hand holding and encouragement but in Chinese Society, there is none of that. They already know what comes with expecting something to be done and what will be received hence why many here complain about what they bought.

You will get something in the end but it will come down to many decisions made along the way to make it happen. Quality, design and execution of this mouse will always bare the full artifact of that reality.

Not saying it will be a failure in any way but do expect something that comes half way there when it finally arrives on our front door. Not worried at all since eventually Max Gaming will be the ones that circulates this latest BST design. Have always liked his work so I don't see this being a failure in any way. If Dream Machine's had done this, RUN away and hide your wallet's not worth buying anything if DM has organized this or any other mouse design.

Just be glad BST is staying away from them, hence it will be highly successful.


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## dibodibo13

agreed on the opinion that its not a failure, and im glad that most of the features on indiegogo is still exist. switches, adjustable sensor position, modularity etcetc... but im a bit disappointed too about weight, because it was originally under 80 gram no matter what shape i choose. but now the mouse needs special care(which means its not going to have feature that specified out of box), to achieve under 80 grams. not that i mean i regret backed this up for these one, but the accidents that keep happening with its feature.(optical switches, tooling going to end) however the time it takes to get astrum, that is real disapointment. i keep heard that "its not that long, its not far, its last, its real last" but never heard of what ETA would be, nothing about single clue like 'in december.' more over, although i belive bst and he is awesome, he doesnt talk about it at all and avoids the answer to it. yes i didnt preordered one, but backed this project. however i believe that i receive astrum from the feature specified in indiegogo in reward and on which point do i get my mouse. considering that, people have right to know keep reported on where its gonna end and start shipping but its completely ignored. i bet money on it that nobody would backed this project if it is going to 1 year of tooling even though it is fxxking fantastic idea. i really wanted lightweight astrum shining in black chrome would be left on my doorway next month, but it passed way too long that my i had to replace my switch of g pro wireless twice.


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## nyshak

I backed the project for the adjustable sensor and from my experience with the shape of the Aurora, which should be somewhat similar to the Astrums Alpha shape. Not the weight. As long as it is below 90gr I can deal with it. Of course it would be cool if it can be done below 80gr, but not if that compromises the quality of the sensor slider or something else. Low weight was never the main focus of this modular mouse. The modularity and the sensor slider were. These are the unique selling points for this. I honestly don't see how someone could have gotten a different impression from the kickstarter campaign.


----------



## 508859

RaleighStClair said:


> By the time this mouse hits market at 80g+, we will be on 40g mice.


do not confuse market with the few mice for enthusiasts. most mice on the market are still within 80-100g range these days. 
those model o, skoll, fm, viper etc are a minority on the market. many customers still want a stiff braided cable and a solid feel of a brick like g502 with alien rbg design. 

and obviously market is not moving into 40g direction.


----------



## bst

I think I will be able to hit the 77g range, it might take more time (as usual), but I'm sure it can be done. I did talk with the factory about the 0.8mm PCB, and they seem open to it, just warned me the shell has to be adjusted which I already knew. I have to wait until monday before we can go into it more in depth.

Since they're already going to be working on the tooling for the adjustable sensor, they should be able to do it all in one go. So hopefully it won't add much more time than was already added by that.

I think the main issue all along has been the delays, the mouse itself isn't very different from what was originally specified in the Indiegogo campaign. 

I did stop trying to predict ETAs because its just pointless, they're always wrong. I don't know how long things will take any better than anyone else, unfortunately. I know how long it roughly takes once the mouse is finished, but during development, its really hard to predict. I want it to be finished as much, if not more than anyone else, so I know how you all feel.

I do care about the project a lot, and how long it takes, but honestly if people want to think that I don't, then its ok, its bound to happen because its easy to think that its not as difficult as it is, so the natural assumption is I must not care. Unfortunately it takes quite a bit of explanation to change someone's mind, and I don't have time to do that one person at a time.


----------



## hisXLNC

bst said:


> I think I will be able to hit the 77g range, it might take more time (as usual), but I'm sure it can be done. I did talk with the factory about the 0.8mm PCB, and they seem open to it, just warned me the shell has to be adjusted which I already knew. I have to wait until monday before we can go into it more in depth.
> 
> Since they're already going to be working on the tooling for the adjustable sensor, they should be able to do it all in one go. So hopefully it won't add much more time than was already added by that.
> 
> I think the main issue all along has been the delays, the mouse itself isn't very different from what was originally specified in the Indiegogo campaign.
> 
> I did stop trying to predict ETAs because its just pointless, they're always wrong. I don't know how long things will take any better than anyone else, unfortunately. I know how long it roughly takes once the mouse is finished, but during development, its really hard to predict. I want it to be finished as much, if not more than anyone else, so I know how you all feel.
> 
> I do care about the project a lot, and how long it takes, but honestly if people want to think that I don't, then its ok, its bound to happen because its easy to think that its not as difficult as it is, so the natural assumption is I must not care. Unfortunately it takes quite a bit of explanation to change someone's mind, and I don't have time to do that one person at a time.



The problem I have isnt with the weight, because you offer a solution (modular shell which I can put holes in). My problem is since Ive ordered the chrome, Id like the shell to be in the same color. So I would suggest selling the parts yourself in the colors of the mice. This is why im considering getting a white one as well as the chrome ive ordered just to make it easier to 3d print and match the color or whatever. Im not much of a painter or an arts and crafts kind of guy. So if you were selling the holed out parts in chrome, id definitely get those.

If its sub 80g, I dont imagine id need it to be lighter since the ultralight sunset im using is 67g but the shape is a bit too small for me. So 10ish grams isnt that big of a deal for the added size.

Good work so far and id rather delays and a solid product than a rush job.


----------



## SD2

hisXLNC said:


> The problem I have isnt with the weight, because you offer a solution (modular shell which I can put holes in). My problem is since Ive ordered the chrome, Id like the shell to be in the same color. So I would suggest selling the parts yourself in the colors of the mice. This is why im considering getting a white one as well as the chrome ive ordered just to make it easier to 3d print and match the color or whatever. Im not much of a painter or an arts and crafts kind of guy. So if you were selling the holed out parts in chrome, id definitely get those.
> 
> If its sub 80g, I dont imagine id need it to be lighter since the ultralight sunset im using is 67g but the shape is a bit too small for me. So 10ish grams isnt that big of a deal for the added size.
> 
> Good work so far and id rather delays and a solid product than a rush job.


Yeah it's the same for me, I'd love to get the parts from the site so they'd match the colour that I'd want without me having to give the parts a paint job myself.


----------



## ATH-YF

Talking about sensor position, BST can you give us the distances by witch the sensor vary?
Depending on the range this could allow for a large variety of shape sizes to be adapted.


----------



## iBerggman

The pictures bst posted in this post should give you some idea of how much you can move the sensor, bst will have to confirm the actual distance you can move it on the current design though. I seem to remember the total distance was somewhere around 10-15mm? That might have been before the holder was revised though.


----------



## bst

hisXLNC said:


> The problem I have isnt with the weight, because you offer a solution (modular shell which I can put holes in). My problem is since Ive ordered the chrome, Id like the shell to be in the same color. So I would suggest selling the parts yourself in the colors of the mice. This is why im considering getting a white one as well as the chrome ive ordered just to make it easier to 3d print and match the color or whatever. Im not much of a painter or an arts and crafts kind of guy. So if you were selling the holed out parts in chrome, id definitely get those.


The thing is the factories don't allow small orders, I had enough trouble getting them to agree to this batch. Its another thing I wish I could do, but they flat out refuse. They're just not set up for it 

The white and black ones are the easiest to mod, they're the ones I'd recommend, since you don't even really need to paint them if you're 3D printing in black or white plastic. Or even if you do paint them, white and black paint is usually easy to paint, like the Krylon Fusion paint is really good, its hard to mess those paints up, I've painted things intentionally wrongly before and they just come out perfectly every time.

The coloured and chrome ones are more difficult, but not impossible, there are places who will spray chrome and colour match. I don't know how much they'd charge, but probably not that much for a few small panels. 

The main difference between the white/black and the coloured/chrome mice is, the white/black ones you can experiment with fairly cheaply, but the coloured/chrome ones are best if they're done by a professional, properly colour matched and so on. This means its better to make sure you definitely like the panel before you get it painted, or get multiple painted at once (since it won't cost much more to do a few than it would to do one).

If you're 3D printing panels, its not too hard to sand them smooth, but also, you can ask the printer to finish them for you. But the same rule applies, the more time or money you spend, the more sure you'll want to be that you really want it.

The only thing I might be able to do is, if I can get some lightweight panels crowd funded, then they could be painted at the same time. But I'm not sure if it'll all line up timing wise 



ATH-YF said:


> Talking about sensor position, BST can you give us the distances by witch the sensor vary?
> Depending on the range this could allow for a large variety of shape sizes to be adapted.


16mm in increments of 2mm, so there are 9 positions (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).


----------



## ATH-YF

The internals look heavy duty, thanks for the pics.


----------



## qsxcv

bst, on your 3360 pcb, what are the chips on the bottom left?
if they're for spi level conversion, fyi that isn't necessary at all.


----------



## bst

qsxcv said:


> bst, on your 3360 pcb, what are the chips on the bottom left?
> if they're for spi level conversion, fyi that isn't necessary at all.



Thanks, I just checked the datasheet and you're right, theres no max voltage for the SPI listed. I guess the tindie 3360 was just being extra careful? 

On MISO it converts the voltage to 5V going to the MCU, looks like that isn't needed either.


----------



## gipetto

the tindie board was built to handle 3.3v and 5v. I'm not sure that would be possible using resistors. you could get away with even few level converters by changing the design to 3.3v mcu but that could make side buttons more susceptible to double click.


----------



## bst

gipetto said:


> the tindie board was built to handle 3.3v and 5v. I'm not sure that would be possible using resistors. you could get away with even few level converters by changing the design to 3.3v mcu but that could make side buttons more susceptible to double click.


The 3.3v/5v to 1.9v is handled by the voltage regulator chip, then the level converters use the 1.9v from that to change the SPI voltage to 1.9v.

I think I might have figured out why they are needed now.

Basically VDDIO on the sensor is set to 1.9v from the voltage regulator, and so the SPI voltage should match the VDDIO, so the level converters are used to set the SPI signals from the MCU to 1.9v, to match the VDDIO voltage.

The VDDIO has a maximum voltage of 3.6v, so it can't be set to 5v, and the only other option is 1.9v, unless another voltage regulator is used, so might as well use the same 1.9v.

So I am assuming that VDDIO's voltage is meant to match the SPI voltage (I guess so it can interpret the signals properly?), if that's the case then you can't use 5v SPI signals, so I'd have to keep the level converters.


----------



## gipetto

I find all the technical talk hard to understand. I learned about level shifting from this article. There's no harm I think in sticking to the proven design and avoiding bugs down the line. I understand that most of the cost increase comes from adding another part reel, since the level shifters are all the same part there's little difference in overall cost between 5v mcu + level shifters and 3.3v mcu with voltage divider shifting and extra 3.3v regulator like in the hackaday article.(assuming that it works reliably for long periods)

https://hackaday.com/2016/12/05/tak...and-5v-logic-communicate-with-level-shifters/

edit: You should probably use the v5 3360 srom also it has less smoothing than the v3 and v4.

https://github.com/zaunkoenig-firmware/m1k-firmware/blob/master/srom_3360_0x05.h


----------



## bst

Yeah I could use resistors for the level shifting, but I think the level converters are better. How much better, idk  But they aren't that expensive so why not.

It says in the sensor datasheet that the max voltage for the VDDIO pin on the sensor (which is the reference voltage for the SPI signals), is 3.6v. If it was 5 or 6v, then the SPI signals and VDDIO power could just come straight from the MCU. Or if I was using a 3.3v MCU then the 3.6v max wouldn't be a problem.

There is probably no good reason why 5v won't work, because for the actual signal its ok, it'll be below and above the thresholds necessary. But because its saying 3.6v max for the VDDIO pin, it makes me think that 5v would damage it somehow. Maybe not immediately, but over time. Maybe I'm wrong about that and it'll be fine, but I wouldn't want to take the risk without being 100% sure.


----------



## bst

I forgot to say, the factory is going ahead with the 0.8mm PCB. 

The weight of the mouse should be just under 80g, and if you remove the magnets and use smaller mouse feet, which will be included in the box, then it'll have its weight reduced another 2.5g, so it'll weigh about 76-77g.


----------



## qsxcv

my personal preference for doing things is 3.3v everywhere (mcu and vddio on 3360).

i don't think 3.3v vs 5v is enough to impact the switches significantly.


----------



## bst

qsxcv said:


> my personal preference for doing things is 3.3v everywhere (mcu and vddio on 3360).
> 
> i don't think 3.3v vs 5v is enough to impact the switches significantly.


Its a nice clean way to do it, idk if I would change to 3.3v though, I don't see any big problems with the transceivers (they're not expensive), and I want to run the MCU at full speed, just because I'm paranoid it might be needed at some point


----------



## qsxcv

yea i wouldn't change it at this point

did you adjust the timers in the firmware so that they know about 16MHz though?


----------



## RyuKobs

Hey bst is this going to have 8000hz polling rate for my 1000hz refresh rate monitor I am going to buy in a decade?

On a more serious note are you thinking of designing a wireless pcb that would be compatible with the current astrum?


----------



## bst

qsxcv said:


> yea i wouldn't change it at this point
> 
> did you adjust the timers in the firmware so that they know about 16MHz though?


Oh I didn't know I'd have to do that, just took a look at it and it seems all I have to do is change OCR0A to 249, because the prescaler at 1/8 for 16mhz would be 0.5us, instead of 1us?



RyuKobs said:


> Hey bst is this going to have 8000hz polling rate for my 1000hz refresh rate monitor I am going to buy in a decade?
> 
> On a more serious note are you thinking of designing a wireless pcb that would be compatible with the current astrum?


I think it could do 8000hz if the Zaunkoenig M1K can do it, since they use the same hardware, but I haven't tried it yet. I'll probably add it in a firmware update, unless I get time to add it and test it before the mice are made.

I think because the PCB is the most expensive part of the mouse, its better to just make a wireless Astrum and only sell that (rather than the PCB on its own), and would be backwards compatible so you can swap any custom panels from the wired version over to it.


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> Oh I didn't know I'd have to do that, just took a look at it and it seems all I have to do is change OCR0A to 249, because the prescaler at 1/8 for 16mhz would be 0.5us, instead of 1us?


yes
i think that's the only hard coded thing that has to do with timing.



> I think it could do 8000hz if the Zaunkoenig M1K can do it, since they use the same hardware, but I haven't tried it yet. I'll probably add it in a firmware update, unless I get time to add it and test it before the mice are made.


yea it should be able to


----------



## raghaf2007

bst said:


> I think because the PCB is the most expensive part of the mouse, its better to just make a wireless Astrum and only sell that (rather than the PCB on its own), and would be backwards compatible so you can swap any custom panels from the wired version over to it.


 @bst 
If this is your plan, Will you be selling wireless PCB for the wired version backers?


----------



## MattKelly

@bst 
Are you still planning on including povohat's accel driver at a hardware level? That has been the biggest incentive to me since day one, and I know the last time we spoke it was proving to be a complicated task, so I just wanted to check in on that. It would be really nice to not have to worry about tournament organizers debating if the driver should be added to their supported software list at LAN.


----------



## bst

qsxcv said:


> yes
> i think that's the only hard coded thing that has to do with timing.
> [...]
> yea it should be able to


Thanks 


raghaf2007 said:


> @bst
> If this is your plan, Will you be selling wireless PCB for the wired version backers?


No because the wireless PCB won't fit properly, it needs a new inner shell, so might as well just sell the entire mouse. Its like I said, the PCB is the most expensive part anyway, so there isn't much to save from selling it on its own. Also wireless is harder to get certification for, and as far as I know you can't certify a mouse, and then sell the PCB separately, you have to certify the PCB on its own as well. So its not really worth selling the PCB on its own.

Just as an aside here is a picture of the lightweight beta shell for the Astrum, looks like it weighs under 60g, I've sent it off to be printed in ABS so will see what it's like in real life.
Some notes about what's in the pictures:
- There are little connections at the front buttons, this is to keep them level with the shell, you cut them off with a knife when you get it.
- The bar at the front is to keep the sides from moving around, and it also keeps the USB cable held down in its holder.
- I thought I'd try triangular holes on the sides, not sure what I think of how they look, but thought they might be stronger.


----------



## tacomn

I no this is just a mock picture but are you planning on doing on the shells lightweight?


----------



## Cnbs

END GAME SHELL

is this product will be sold?


----------



## hisXLNC

bst said:


> Thanks
> 
> No because the wireless PCB won't fit properly, it needs a new inner shell, so might as well just sell the entire mouse. Its like I said, the PCB is the most expensive part anyway, so there isn't much to save from selling it on its own. Also wireless is harder to get certification for, and as far as I know you can't certify a mouse, and then sell the PCB separately, you have to certify the PCB on its own as well. So its not really worth selling the PCB on its own.
> 
> Just as an aside here is a picture of the lightweight beta shell for the Astrum, looks like it weighs under 60g, I've sent it off to be printed in ABS so will see what it's like in real life.
> Some notes about what's in the pictures:
> - There are little connections at the front buttons, this is to keep them level with the shell, you cut them off with a knife when you get it.
> - The bar at the front is to keep the sides from moving around, and it also keeps the USB cable held down in its holder.
> - I thought I'd try triangular holes on the sides, not sure what I think of how they look, but thought they might be stronger.


that grey looks really nice.


----------



## bst

tacomn said:


> I no this is just a mock picture but are you planning on doing on the shells lightweight?





Cnbs said:


> END GAME SHELL
> 
> is this product will be sold?


That shell is for 3D printing, you'll be able to download it and have it printed. I could make an injection molded version, but it needs funding to do it


----------



## duhizy

I suppose you could release it at some other point after you have made enough profit off the Astrum to reinvest in more modular features. The fact that you can make adjustments like this is a huge bonus to anyone that purchases the mouse. Why would you buy another mouse when you could just purchase a cheap shell and have an entirely new mouse at any weight you choose. I'm being completely serious here, if you play your cards right by gradually increasing the variety of optional shells, you will have completely revolutionized the mouse game. You would quickly make this mouse the only thing recommended to new buyers, and could potentially become very rich if you market it correctly. You could even make a Astrum Lite version that has less features, like no moving sensor, to reduce the weight for those that want something even lighter down the road. Your ability to respond to market demand would be something that could only be found in an economist's wet dream!


----------



## bst

duhizy said:


> I suppose you could release it at some other point after you have made enough profit off the Astrum to reinvest in more modular features. The fact that you can make adjustments like this is a huge bonus to anyone that purchases the mouse. Why would you buy another mouse when you could just purchase a cheap shell and have an entirely new mouse at any weight you choose. I'm being completely serious here, if you play your cards right by gradually increasing the variety of optional shells, you will have completely revolutionized the mouse game. You would quickly make this mouse the only thing recommended to new buyers, and could potentially become very rich if you market it correctly. You could even make a Astrum Lite version that has less features, like no moving sensor, to reduce the weight for those that want something even lighter down the road. Your ability to respond to market demand would be something that could only be found in an economist's wet dream!


That's the general idea, I think that 3D printing is going to get better though, I hope it won't be too long before injection molds aren't needed. They might be needed for some of the internal structure, for more strength/rigidity, and maybe the buttons for a little more precision in the finish. But for the outer skin of the mouse, something like SLA 3D printing can produce a really nice finish not so far from injection molded plastic. The only problem with it is for the really fine finish its quite expensive, to print that shell I just posted in SLA would be about £80, but that is the top end, you can get SLA for about a quarter of that, it just won't be quite as good. But hopefully the prices will come down and the quality will go up, as the technology improves.

I do like the idea of an Astrum Lite, its kind of like what I wanted to do with what I was calling the Astrum S, which was a smaller version of the Astrum, and no adjustable sensor.

I think it'd be nice to make it basically a top shell (like the picture I just posted), and the base with the PCB would just screw into it, but it'd be really minimalist. Then you could just buy or print new top shells and it'd be easy to unscrew the PCB(s) out of the old shell and screw them into the new top shell.

It's not really a million miles away from what the Astrum already is though, it'd just be a bit lighter. But yeah it could be done, and also it could be cross compatible with the Astrum as well (maybe not for all the shells but probably quite a few would work).


----------



## chort

bst said:


> That's the general idea, I think that 3D printing is going to get better though, I hope it won't be too long before injection molds aren't needed. They might be needed for some of the internal structure, for more strength/rigidity, and maybe the buttons for a little more precision in the finish. But for the outer skin of the mouse, something like SLA 3D printing can produce a really nice finish not so far from injection molded plastic. The only problem with it is for the really fine finish its quite expensive, to print that shell I just posted in SLA would be about £80, but that is the top end, you can get SLA for about a quarter of that, it just won't be quite as good. But hopefully the prices will come down and the quality will go up, as the technology improves.
> 
> I do like the idea of an Astrum Lite, its kind of like what I wanted to do with what I was calling the Astrum S, which was a smaller version of the Astrum, and no adjustable sensor.
> 
> I think it'd be nice to make it basically a top shell (like the picture I just posted), and the base with the PCB would just screw into it, but it'd be really minimalist. Then you could just buy or print new top shells and it'd be easy to unscrew the PCB(s) out of the old shell and screw them into the new top shell.
> 
> It's not really a million miles away from what the Astrum already is though, it'd just be a bit lighter. But yeah it could be done, and also it could be cross compatible with the Astrum as well (maybe not for all the shells but probably quite a few would work).


I think the minimum is making the underside of the mouse with holes, it literally shouldn't affect anything and would get a few grams off, making it easier to aim for the target weight you had in the beginning.


----------



## TaylorFerguson

MattKelly said:


> @bst
> Are you still planning on including povohat's accel driver at a hardware level? That has been the biggest incentive to me since day one, and I know the last time we spoke it was proving to be a complicated task, so I just wanted to check in on that. It would be really nice to not have to worry about tournament organizers debating if the driver should be added to their supported software list at LAN.


 @bst
Long time lurker, but I made an account just to second this. Having povohat's driver built into the mouse was one of my main reasons for backing.


----------



## nyshak

chort said:


> I think the minimum is making the underside of the mouse with holes, it literally shouldn't affect anything and would get a few grams off, making it easier to aim for the target weight you had in the beginning.


No thanks. bst has gotten the weight below 80gr already again, and I'd like my mouse dust free thank you.


----------



## bst

TaylorFerguson said:


> @bst
> Long time lurker, but I made an account just to second this. Having povohat's driver built into the mouse was one of my main reasons for backing.


I'm sure its possible, and I intend to do it, but I just haven't tried it yet. I might give it a go during the week.

The cool thing would be that the mouse should remember the setting, so after you've set it, you wouldn't need the software installed for it to work. The only thing is it would still work the same way as povohat's accel, working off your in game sensitivity. If you wanted to change your in game sensitivity you'd have to go back into the software and change it in there too, so they match up.


----------



## The Realest Lad

This is a strange question to ask but like that lightweight version for the beta shell you showed to us would you do shell versions like that lightweight one you have shown to us but instead the shell is completely covered with holes including on the M1/M2 buttons; imagine the shells completly covered in holes as the lightweight shell for the beta but with more holes on the entire shell. Also what shape would be perfect for finger tip grip?


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> I'm sure its possible, and I intend to do it, but I just haven't tried it yet. I might give it a go during the week.
> 
> The cool thing would be that the mouse should remember the setting, so after you've set it, you wouldn't need the software installed for it to work. The only thing is it would still work the same way as povohat's accel, working off your in game sensitivity. If you wanted to change your in game sensitivity you'd have to go back into the software and change it in there too, so they match up.


If you're able to get all of the settings from povohat's driver into the mouse at a hardware level - with no need to install software at LAN - you'll be my savior.


----------



## 508859

chort said:


> I think the minimum is making the underside of the mouse with holes, it literally shouldn't affect anything and would get a few grams off, making it easier to aim for the target weight you had in the beginning.


turn it into **** to save 2g. no thanks


----------



## bst

The Realest Lad said:


> This is a strange question to ask but like that lightweight version for the beta shell you showed to us would you do shell versions like that lightweight one you have shown to us but instead the shell is completely covered with holes including on the M1/M2 buttons; imagine the shells completly covered in holes as the lightweight shell for the beta but with more holes on the entire shell. Also what shape would be perfect for finger tip grip?


It can't be completely covered in holes because where there aren't any holes, are supports, where its too thick to add holes. I could probably add some more holes though, like at the end of the buttons, but it might flex a lot more. Why do you want it completely covered in holes, just so its lighter?

Probably the best shape for fingertip would be the Alpha shape, but only if you wanted to hold it closer to the back (because it doesn't flare out like the Beta), if you don't then the Beta shape would be fine.



MattKelly said:


> If you're able to get all of the settings from povohat's driver into the mouse at a hardware level - with no need to install software at LAN - you'll be my savior.


It should be possible because all its really doing is multiplying the counts after it gets them from the sensor.

This is what I have at the moment, its just basic quake mouse accel. I don't know if it works yet, I highly doubt it  But I think its the general idea.
I'm not sure if sqrt is the best thing to use, or if I can mess with x.all/y.all the way I'm doing. Also I guess it needs rounding at some point. @qsxcv if you have any pointers I'd really appreciate it 



Code:


// Mouse accel
uint8_t enable_accel = 1;
uint8_t sensitivity = 1; // Game sensitivity value
float mouseaccel = 0.1; // User defined accel value

if (enable_accel == 1) {

// Get total mouse movement for 1 USB frame
float mouserate = sqrt(_x.all*_x.all + _y.all*_y.all);

// Get accel multiplyer
float accel_multiplyer = 1+mouserate * (mouseaccel/sensitivity);

// Total accel applied to total movment for x and y
_x.all *= accel_multiplyer;
_y.all *= accel_multiplyer;
}


----------



## chort

numberfive said:


> turn it into **** to save 2g. no thanks


yes, a very good explanation of why not do it, you've enlightened me.


----------



## bst

chort said:


> I think the minimum is making the underside of the mouse with holes, it literally shouldn't affect anything and would get a few grams off, making it easier to aim for the target weight you had in the beginning.


It can't be done, unless the mold is remade, which would take quite a lot of time and money, I don't think it'd be worth it because there isn't even that much room to add holes, at best I think it would save at best 1-2g, but that would be being really aggressive, and it would really affect the strength.

I did try it before, we put some holes under the mouse feet, but there aren't many places where holes can go, I think it actually only saved 0.5g in the end, and it had more flex, so it wasn't worth it.


----------



## 508859

chort said:


> yes, a very good explanation of why not do it, you've enlightened me.


glad to be helpful, cheers.


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> It can't be completely covered in holes because where there aren't any holes, are supports, where its too thick to add holes. I could probably add some more holes though, like at the end of the buttons, but it might flex a lot more. Why do you want it completely covered in holes, just so its lighter?
> 
> Probably the best shape for fingertip would be the Alpha shape, but only if you wanted to hold it closer to the back (because it doesn't flare out like the Beta), if you don't then the Beta shape would be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> It should be possible because all its really doing is multiplying the counts after it gets them from the sensor.
> 
> This is what I have at the moment, its just basic quake mouse accel. I don't know if it works yet, I highly doubt it  But I think its the general idea.
> I'm not sure if sqrt is the best thing to use, or if I can mess with x.all/y.all the way I'm doing. Also I guess it needs rounding at some point.
> @qsxcv if you have any pointers I'd really appreciate it
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> // Mouse accel
> uint8_t enable_accel = 1;
> uint8_t sensitivity = 1; // Game sensitivity value
> float mouseaccel = 0.1; // User defined accel value
> 
> if (enable_accel == 1) {
> 
> // Get total mouse movement for 1 USB frame
> float mouserate = sqrt(_x.all*_x.all + _y.all*_y.all);
> 
> // Get accel multiplyer
> float accel_multiplyer = 1+mouserate * (mouseaccel/sensitivity);
> 
> // Total accel applied to total movment for x and y
> _x.all *= accel_multiplyer;
> _y.all *= accel_multiplyer;
> }


yup thats the right idea

random comments about this:
1. it's probably better to minimize usage of sqrt since it's not a function that be performed quickly on a mouse mcu. (though i'm not sure how slow it is. if it takes less than like 50us, that's still ok).
2. the tricky thing about accel is that the amount of accel varies depending on whether the data looks like
20 40 20 40 20 40 20 40
or
30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30

the first situation arises because the sensor's framerate is not in sync with the usb polling.

because of this it's better to get rid of the 125us loop in the firmware and just run the main loop at 1ms period/1000Hz (since if you add together 1ms of sensor data, there's less fluctuation).

this is further complicated by the fact that 3360 has different framerate modes...

3. ideally for accel you want to start with high dpi data and scale to a low dpi value for low speeds. this means tracking error accumulation and implementing a bit of deadzone/hysteresis. but 3360 has high dpi smoothing 

(btw with srom 0x05 for 3360, the threshold for smoothing moves up to 3500/3600dpi)


----------



## bst

qsxcv said:


> yup thats the right idea
> 
> random comments about this:
> 1. it's probably better to minimize usage of sqrt since it's not a function that be performed quickly on a mouse mcu. (though i'm not sure how slow it is. if it takes less than like 50us, that's still ok).
> 2. the tricky thing about accel is that the amount of accel varies depending on whether the data looks like
> 20 40 20 40 20 40 20 40
> or
> 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
> 
> the first situation arises because the sensor's framerate is not in sync with the usb polling.
> 
> because of this it's better to get rid of the 125us loop in the firmware and just run the main loop at 1ms period/1000Hz (since if you add together 1ms of sensor data, there's less fluctuation).
> 
> this is further complicated by the fact that 3360 has different framerate modes...
> 
> 3. ideally for accel you want to start with high dpi data and scale to a low dpi value for low speeds. this means tracking error accumulation and implementing a bit of deadzone/hysteresis. but 3360 has high dpi smoothing
> 
> (btw with srom 0x05 for 3360, the threshold for smoothing moves up to 3500/3600dpi)


Thanks, that's very helpful information.


----------



## bst

Heres a couple of photos of the 3D printed lightweight shell. I didn't do anything to the print, no adjustments or finishing.
Actually I did have to scrape a bit of plastic of the RMB plunger, but it was just a tiny bit.

I'm surprised how solid it feels, and the clicks are really nice, it doesn't feel like there's any difference to the normal shell.

It kind of looks like crap because it needs sanding, and its a bit annoying to hold because I can feel little tiny bits of plastic, but with an electric sander at about 400 grit it would only take a few minutes to sort it and make it look a lot better. I didn't bother though because I thought it'd be good to show what its like raw.

The weight is 62g, but it should be about 56g when it gets the thinner PCB. And it really is usable, I would be fine playing with this (after giving it a good sanding ofc).


----------



## Cnbs

how much did it cost?


----------



## bst

It was £36 inc tax & shipping at 3DHubs.com, I think that's the cheapest price they print things for, could probably get it a fair bit cheaper by shopping around, it should have been about £25 but their minimum spend is £30 so they surcharge it, then they add tax.

Theres a list of online printing services here, I'm going to try a few others and see how they do:
https://all3dp.com/1/best-online-3d-printing-service-3d-print-services/


----------



## bst

Just ordered a couple from craftcloud:
£5 for ABS
£15 for Tough resin SLA
+ £11.50 shipping & £6 tax (20%)
Total £37

It would have cost £20 for ABS on its own, or £31.50 for Resin.

If the ABS one is good then that's a good price. The resin one will probably be a little bit heavier, but should be much smoother than ABS


----------



## ATH-YF

Smaller holes would be more aesthetic. I like what you did for the sides as a way to avoid discomfort (something that has been pointed out in the mm710).

Regardless of the mice models I'm not a fan of how stretched they look around the back and wonder what solutions could be imagined.. also I wonder what a line pattern could be like.

But It's not a big deal considering function is priority over looks for such approach.
You're saving a lot of weight with the big spaces.


----------



## The Realest Lad

Does the Astrum S come out after the Astrum is made? If so then how long would it take to get the Astrum S done?


----------



## bst

The Realest Lad said:


> Does the Astrum S come out after the Astrum is made? If so then how long would it take to get the Astrum S done?


Yes, after. I don't know how long it'd take to do, it'd be more simple than the Astrum, so not as long as that. But I don't know where the funding for it would come from, would people want to do another crowdfund for a similar mouse to the Astrum again, given how long it's taken? 

I was thinking of doing a relatively small project, to make a new top shell for the Venator, and cut its PCB down, it'd be quite an easy, fast and inexpensive thing to make, and would weigh under 60g. There isn't really a lightweight version of that kind of shape out there. I would also sell the top shell by itself if people wanted to upgrade their old Venators, it wouldn't be quite as light because the PCB would still be a little heavier, but it'd be pretty close since most of the weight is in the top shell.


----------



## hisXLNC

bst said:


> Heres a couple of photos of the 3D printed lightweight shell. I didn't do anything to the print, no adjustments or finishing.
> Actually I did have to scrape a bit of plastic of the RMB plunger, but it was just a tiny bit.
> 
> I'm surprised how solid it feels, and the clicks are really nice, it doesn't feel like there's any difference to the normal shell.
> 
> It kind of looks like crap because it needs sanding, and its a bit annoying to hold because I can feel little tiny bits of plastic, but with an electric sander at about 400 grit it would only take a few minutes to sort it and make it look a lot better. I didn't bother though because I thought it'd be good to show what its like raw.
> 
> The weight is 62g, but it should be about 56g when it gets the thinner PCB. And it really is usable, I would be fine playing with this (after giving it a good sanding ofc).


how much would you need to raise to make this shell available a non 3d printed way (injection iirc)?


----------



## bst

hisXLNC said:


> how much would you need to raise to make this shell available a non 3d printed way (injection iirc)?


I guess around $6-8000.


----------



## ATH-YF

bst said:


> I was thinking of doing a relatively small project, to make a new top shell for the Venator, and cut its PCB down, it'd be quite an easy, fast and inexpensive thing to make, and would weigh under 60g. There isn't really a lightweight version of that kind of shape out there. I would also sell the top shell by itself if people wanted to upgrade their old Venators, it wouldn't be quite as light because the PCB would still be a little heavier, but it'd be pretty close since most of the weight is in the top shell.


Sounds like a great idea.
Having a follow up on a already owned mouse will feel good for competitive peoples, rebuilding muscle memory can be a concern for some.


----------



## winz0r

Or time to finally make a proper MX300/G1/G100S replacement


----------



## RaleighStClair

bst said:


> Yes, after. I don't know how long it'd take to do, it'd be more simple than the Astrum, so not as long as that. But I don't know where the funding for it would come from, would people want to do another crowdfund for a similar mouse to the Astrum again, given how long it's taken?
> 
> I was thinking of doing a relatively small project, to make a new top shell for the Venator, and cut its PCB down, it'd be quite an easy, fast and inexpensive thing to make, and would weigh under 60g. There isn't really a lightweight version of that kind of shape out there. I would also sell the top shell by itself if people wanted to upgrade their old Venators, it wouldn't be quite as light because the PCB would still be a little heavier, but it'd be pretty close since most of the weight is in the top shell.


I'm not familiar with the Venator, what other mice does it share a similar size/shape?


----------



## The Realest Lad

What shape would be the closest to the FK1/S1 from Zowie?


----------



## bst

RaleighStClair said:


> I'm not familiar with the Venator, what other mice does it share a similar size/shape?


Its like a Zowie ZA13.



The Realest Lad said:


> What shape would be the closest to the FK1/S1 from Zowie?


The beta shape, its based on a WMO which is kind of similar to the FK1/S1.


----------



## Jefferderp

bst said:


> Yes, after. I don't know how long it'd take to do, it'd be more simple than the Astrum, so not as long as that. But I don't know where the funding for it would come from, would people want to do another crowdfund for a similar mouse to the Astrum again, given how long it's taken?
> 
> I was thinking of doing a relatively small project, to make a new top shell for the Venator, and cut its PCB down, it'd be quite an easy, fast and inexpensive thing to make, and would weigh under 60g. There isn't really a lightweight version of that kind of shape out there. I would also sell the top shell by itself if people wanted to upgrade their old Venators, it wouldn't be quite as light because the PCB would still be a little heavier, but it'd be pretty close since most of the weight is in the top shell.


Personally, I would love to repurpose one of my dusty/spare Venators with an alternate top shell. At the very least, I love trying shapes.

A crowdfund is a good idea, but maybe wait until after feedback pours in for the Astrum.

Looking forward every week to this mouse!


----------



## MaTpr0F

Jefferderp said:


> Looking forward every week to this mouse!


Me too, but it kinda feels like I'm watching Game of Thrones. I can't wait to see the winter and the night king's army but I'm only at season 3. Plz don't hate .


----------



## rijst

Hi bst,

When will it ship?
Please reconsider your project planning and create + share your plan B.

Kind Regards.
--
Contribution Date: June 29, 2018

Astrum Colours X5 [Discount]
Estimated Delivery Date December 2018
Included Items
1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Matte Blue
1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Glossy Purple
1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Matte Red
1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Rubber Grey
1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Matte Green
Subtotal $355 USD
Shipping $28 USD
Total $383 USD


----------



## KingzandBean

Hey BST,

Time has passed and my set up at home has changed so I was wondering if I could change my order slightly and get a Dark Knight instead of a purple austrum I just can't find the proper channel to make this change (is it possible). Plz lmk thanks!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## TelaKeppi

bst said:


> I was thinking of doing a relatively small project, to make a new top shell for the Venator, and cut its PCB down, it'd be quite an easy, fast and inexpensive thing to make, and would weigh under 60g. There isn't really a lightweight version of that kind of shape out there. I would also sell the top shell by itself if people wanted to upgrade their old Venators, it wouldn't be quite as light because the PCB would still be a little heavier, but it'd be pretty close since most of the weight is in the top shell.


I've used Venator as my main since it came out. I still have 3 in a package since they are not available anymore . I've had to paracord it and replace the switches to Kailh GM red because the original switches failed after 1 year. I'm also using Lizard skins on the sides to get a better grip, I have sweaty palms . Otherwise its the perfect mouse for me. I've backed the Astrum project since I like your products, but I think the mouse itself will be to big for my hand. Will there be a Venator like 3D shell available for printing at some point?

There really are not enough small gaming mice around, look at the Ultralight 2, not available. MM710, small but too wide. Model O-, too big. S2, too big Venator, not available. If you are going to make another mouse, I hope you consider the Venator shape with fixes to the aforementioned problems and make a V2 with things you've learned from this project.


----------



## TelaKeppi

I've used Venator as my main since it came out. I still have 3 in a package since they are not available anymore . I've had to paracord it and replace the switches to Kailh GM red because the original switches failed after 1 year. I'm also using Lizard skins on the sides to get a better grip, I have sweaty palms . Otherwise its the perfect mouse for me. I've backed the Astrum project since I like your products, but I think the mouse itself will be to big for my hand. Will there be a Venator like 3D shell available for printing at some point?

There really are not enough small gaming mice around, look at the Ultralight 2, not available. MM710, small but too wide. Model O-, too big. S2, too big. Venator, not available. If you are going to make another mouse, I hope you consider the Venator shape with fixes to the aforementioned problems and make a V2 with something you've learned from this project.


----------



## Zakman

rijst said:


> Hi bst,
> 
> When will it ship?
> Please reconsider your project planning and create + share your plan B.
> 
> Kind Regards.
> --
> Contribution Date: June 29, 2018
> 
> Astrum Colours X5 [Discount]
> Estimated Delivery Date December 2018
> Included Items
> 1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Matte Blue
> 1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Glossy Purple
> 1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Matte Red
> 1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Rubber Grey
> 1 x Ninox Astrum Special Edition Colour: Matte Green
> Subtotal $355 USD
> Shipping $28 USD
> Total $383 USD


Not bst but I think I've got a decent idea on the timescales.

Probably looking at late December or early-mid Jan. 2-3 weeks more to confirm the PCB and sensor position changes, maybe around a month/month and a half to go through rounds of testing and feedback, and then it's ready for full-scale manufacturing and QC which hopefully shouldn't take longer than a month. Then it's ready for shipping.

A lot of the delays have come from big language barriers and the factory prioritising other companies. I guess the first point is made worse because of the Astrum having really unique features so it must be more difficult to communicate desired changes.


----------



## rijst

Zakman said:


> Not bst but I think I've got a decent idea on the timescales.
> 
> Probably looking at late December or early-mid Jan. 2-3 weeks more to confirm the PCB and sensor position changes, maybe around a month/month and a half to go through rounds of testing and feedback, and then it's ready for full-scale manufacturing and QC which hopefully shouldn't take longer than a month. Then it's ready for shipping.
> 
> A lot of the delays have come from big language barriers and the factory prioritising other companies. I guess the first point is made worse because of the Astrum having really unique features so it must be more difficult to communicate desired changes.


Thanks for the update, Zakman.
Good luck, bst.


----------



## vanir1337

TelaKeppi said:


> Will there be a Venator like 3D shell available for printing at some point?


This would very much interest me too. Been maining the Venator for quite a long time, until the GPW came out. I still love the Venator's shape, but the overall quality (even with quite a lot of fixes I've made) is subpar.


----------



## bleabbraxhm

Just throwing some noise out there about the possible mouse acceleration, and how it could be improved beyond just integrating povohat in hardware. I understand achieving parity with povohat in a hardware solution is a holy grail for those looking for it, but it is only competitive due to an absence of competition, and this propriety that is perpetuated as an invisible mediocrity complex.

There is a solution to this problem, as well as increasing market penetration for the effort. 

1. Implementation of a feature is generally the end of progress for said feature. No outside forces are capable of ever further changes.

2. Features are used by marketers to increase product segmentation and un-interoperability, walled gardens as a tool to protect against consumer doubt... consumer confidence is maintained through market share.

All of the hardware features should generally be thought of as a tool to market your product to those missing out and trapped by problems 1 and 2. Although most features should function in hardware to customize your designated mouse, the software should be allowed to function with your competition as well. This brings some conscientiousness to the uninformed or unwilling, bringing their attention to your product in the form of adoption and/or critique of your free software and eventually paid hardware.

For example, myself... I am stuck using 2 acceleration curves that run through separate software programs. My first acceleration curve is used primarily for non-tracking aim agility, this first curve negates my need to use a stretched resolution (Even foray into compressed resolution ). My second curve is purely based on muscle memory tied to cm/360, this is the curve classically used by most, for flicks past the edge of vision and low dpi navigation in high resolutions etc.

This is suitable enough for me but slightly erked by the need to use specific hardware/software that will never improve or evolve, and I am in no position to ever influence this conundrum. Thanks for reading this rant!


----------



## 508859

bleabbraxhm said:


> Just throwing some noise out there about the possible mouse acceleration, and how it could be improved beyond just integrating povohat in hardware. I understand achieving parity with povohat in a hardware solution is a holy grail for those looking for it, but it is only competitive due to an absence of competition, and this propriety that is perpetuated as an invisible mediocrity complex.
> 
> There is a solution to this problem, as well as increasing market penetration for the effort.
> 
> 1. Implementation of a feature is generally the end of progress for said feature. No outside forces are capable of ever further changes.
> 
> 2. Features are used by marketers to increase product segmentation and un-interoperability, walled gardens as a tool to protect against consumer doubt... consumer confidence is maintained through market share.
> 
> All of the hardware features should generally be thought of as a tool to market your product to those missing out and trapped by problems 1 and 2. Although most features should function in hardware to customize your designated mouse, the software should be allowed to function with your competition as well. This brings some conscientiousness to the uninformed or unwilling, bringing their attention to your product in the form of adoption and/or critique of your free software and eventually paid hardware.
> 
> For example, myself... I am stuck using 2 acceleration curves that run through separate software programs. My first acceleration curve is used primarily for non-tracking aim agility, this first curve negates my need to use a stretched resolution (Even foray into compressed resolution ). My second curve is purely based on muscle memory tied to cm/360, this is the curve classically used by most, for flicks past the edge of vision and low dpi navigation in high resolutions etc.
> 
> This is suitable enough for me but slightly erked by the need to use specific hardware/software that will never improve or evolve, and I am in no position to ever influence this conundrum. Thanks for reading this rant!


have you tried to make your life 10 times easier by removing all the additional layers and just playing few months on default ones? for science


----------



## RyuKobs

As long as the implementation of povohat in firmware does not add latency to the sensor or mouse clicks it should be a good feature, otherwise make an optional separate firmware if it makes sense. 

I just want this mouse released as fast as possible tbh. My policy on buying one mouse at a time backfired badly xD , the last mouse I bought was a Ninox Venator on November 2017, after that I backed the astrum and you know the rest.


----------



## Freqout

It's now been FOUR MONTHS since you've bothered to post literally anything on the Indiegogo where, you know, the people who paid for this venture are actually watching. Instead it's apparently on us to hunt down where you actually post updates and then share these threads in the comments since, apparently, now that you have our money, you have precisely zero interest in keeping us in the loop or giving us any reason to actually believe this mouse will ever really actually ship. 

Seriously, it's now 10 months since the original projected ship date AND WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM AT ALL IN ALMOST HALF THAT TIME.


----------



## muso

poor dude just wanted to make a mouse everyone would like but it's getting bit ridiculous now. 
I just assume one day it'll show up at my door, hoping i don't need to do anything more than wait because I've completely forgotten my indigogo username and password. 
i'd hate to Imagine all the people who were on like 12 month rental agreements and have changed addresses.


----------



## ATH-YF

BST You could also use the Ninox twitter account to give short notifications.


----------



## e7zip

as i said before, is so many bull**** excuses... i really don't have any hope to get it anymore


----------



## nyshak

e7zip said:


> as i said before, is so many bull**** excuses... i really don't have any hope to get it anymore


Care to name one? His lack of communication on the indigogo kickstarter is bad, yes, but unless you have developed a mouse on your own and dealt with chinese factories on top of all the other issues that come up in a project such as this, you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## e7zip

nyshak said:


> Care to name one? His lack of communication on the indigogo kickstarter is bad, yes, but unless you have developed a mouse on your own and dealt with chinese factories on top of all the other issues that come up in a project such as this, you don't know what you are talking about.


a lot of unwanted features that he claims to delay the project further.


----------



## nyshak

e7zip said:


> a lot of unwanted features that he claims to delay the project further.


I don't see any unwanted features. At least not for the users here. Can't speak for all of the backers of course.


----------



## 508859

e7zip said:


> a lot of unwanted features that he claims to delay the project further.


I see that some features were canceled, I don't recall any new unwanted features


----------



## RyuKobs

Hey BST,

Any Updates?


----------



## empyr

@bst - What's the situation looking like now, are the samples finally ready?


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

@bst please update, don't want this to turn into the another Aurora. I'm patient but I'd love to see this project come together. It's a lot of work


----------



## RyuKobs

@bst Can we get a progress report please?


----------



## James N

It will be done "soon™" .


----------



## hisXLNC

he probably got tired of all the people whining and asking for refunds so he'll probably not say anything unless its done or something.


----------



## MaTpr0F

hisXLNC said:


> he probably got tired of all the people whining and asking for refunds so he'll probably not say anything unless its done or something.


Great business policy.....


----------



## hisXLNC

MaTpr0F said:


> Great business policy.....


its not a business. its a crowd funded project


----------



## MaTpr0F

hisXLNC said:


> its not a business. its a crowd funded project


Crowdfounded or not, he took money, he will make profit. It is a business. And since he already took money I think a one sentence long update is the least the founders deserve. If you don't want to deal with customers don't start a project like this.


----------



## RyuKobs

It would be great if he would update the indiegogo page. I am sure everyone who convinced their friends to back this project would appreciate it, instead of having to convey info from this thread or reddit they could point to that.

Imo more time it takes to release this, newer tech/trends are being created, like Logitech/Razer wireless tech and sensors wont this affect the reception of this mouse?

I dont know how contracts with factories work but wont the cost of manufacturing go up due to trade wars, rise of raw material costs etc, the more time it takes?


----------



## James N

There is not much new going on. The factory in China, doesn't give his project priority, so he is stuck with hoping they work as fast as they can. He mentioned that it is really hard to get in contact with them and talk about changes and make things happen. That factory is also producing other mice for other companies. So all we can do is wait and hope it doesn't take another year.


----------



## ATH-YF

James N said:


> There is not much new going on. The factory in China, doesn't give his project priority, so he is stuck with hoping they work as fast as they can. He mentioned that it is really hard to get in contact with them and talk about changes and make things happen. That factory is also producing other mice for other companies. So all we can do is wait and hope it doesn't take another year.


I wish this could be pointed out by reviewers when the product got in their hands, bst has also expressed his frustration and putting the flames on him wont give the backers any good service. Seeing how the process works, if something went wrong after a revision it's a double time penalty peoples got to pay.


----------



## bst

Hi all, I received a new sample yesterday. I think the mouse is finally finished 

The weight did come down to where I expected, the thinner PCB saved 6g, I estimated it at 6.3g, so wasn't far off. So I'm pleased about that. The thinner PCB looks really thin, but its still very rigid, so its ok. The clicks haven't been affected at all, and actually they improved the side buttons, so it's turned out probably a bit better than I expected. They have improved the adjustable sensor a lot, it isn't exactly how I envisaged it, but it's fine, it works perfectly well so I'm not going to mess with it.

The factory want to send me a new PCB with some minor changes on, they want me to sign off on it, then they can do the FCC/CE testing. After that, it can be manufactured.

To the people who think I'm making money out of this, I'm not, at least not now and not any time soon. It can only make money if it sells after the crowdfund, but the crowdfund itself only makes enough to buy enough stock to sell, so that another order can be placed, and then, the small amount of profit from that has to be spent on more stock. It's only if it sells regularly that I could even begin to think about making anything from it personally. I still enjoy bringing something new to life, but if I had known how long this would take, and how hard it would be, theres no way I would have done it. I should have done something simple like some travel backpack that always seems to sell for $200 each and get over a million in funding 

I will post an update to Indiegogo soon. The thing is with Indiegogo is, I try to spare people too much detail, I think its better to summarise things there (like significant stages of the project). People on OCN are more interested in the details, and talking about it. The problem is that theres so much waiting between significant stages of the project, that it creates a lot of dead air on there (it wouldn't be a problem otherwise). It's not so simple to write a sentence in an update, it just comes across as fobbing people off. Anyone who is already suspicious or paranoid isn't going to be satisfied by a sentence. I also don't think its helpful to write out a convoluted story about what has been happening, especially mid way, when I don't have all the answers, because it creates just as many concerns as it would have if I hadn't said anything. At the same time it's making people read and understand something that is honestly pretty boring, and pointless to read, other than it being some kind of weak evidence that the project is still alive. It just feels like dumping all that information on people isn't really fair or nice thing to do. In the end, it's the project being slow that is the main problem, IMO people would get just as sick of reading convoluted updates as they do with dead air. 

When I make the Indiegogo update, I'll go into all the final weights, what'll be coming in the box and so on. I still don't have exact dates for manufacturing, or how long the FCC/CE testing will take, but I should be able to find that out pretty soon. But hopefully now that the tooling stage is over, things can move in a much more predictable way.


----------



## KingzandBean

@bst what's the appropriate channel to go through if I need to change my shipping address/ the color mouse I ordered?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Zakman

@bst so glad to hear we're nearing completion!!!

And as long as the QC doesn't falter, this mouse will 100% sell once you've sent it to retailers. The one thing I've consistently seen over the past couple of years (especially over the past year as everyone's now sold on lighter mice) is that people want to experiment, hence why we're all going on spending sprees on multiple mice just to find the one we're most comfortable with. Just the adjustable sensor alone gives people a **** ton to experiment with but on top of that you've made it modular, you've given it some of the best clicks I've heard (I've got full confidence it'll feel as good as it sounds with the amount of QC you've put into this), and you've given the ability for people to experiment with their own 3D shells. I orginally only wanted this mouse for the WMO shape, which is another positive I haven't mentioned yet but is so important since it's not been faithfully done in the past 10 years, but now I can't wait to see how well I'll play with a sensor that's further to the back with the IE configuration or the sensor towards the front with the IX shape. I'm certain you've smashed it mate.


----------



## bst

KingzandBean said:


> @bst what's the appropriate channel to go through if I need to change my shipping address/ the color mouse I ordered?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


You should be able to change your address on Indiegogo. Here are the instructions:


Code:


How do I edit my shipping information?

If your contribution status is listed as "Placed," you can change the shipping address and phone number for this perk on your Profile's Contributions tab. Here's how to do it:

Login to Indiegogo
Click on your name on the upper-right hand corner of the page
Click on 'My Contributions'
Find the perk you'd like to change your address on and click on 'View Contribution Details'
Click on the 'Edit Shipping Address' button on the left side of the contribution,
Complete the changes you need to make to the address, and be sure to click 'Save'

Changing the colour is a bit more complicated, depending if you want to upgrade or downgrade, because it means payments or refunds have to happen, but if you just want to change the colour as a sidegrade (within the same perk) then its easily done. If you PM me on here I can do it for you, please let me know your email (that you ordered with) and contribution ID in your message.


----------



## 508859

Zakman said:


> @bst
> especially over the past year as everyone's now sold on lighter mice


by everyone you mean the vocal reddit community of enthusiasts? this is just a fraction of sales of g502 and other spaceships. 

real "everyone" want braided cable, flashy design, solid heavy feel of quality and gazillion buttons.


----------



## rijst

Thanks for the update, bst.


----------



## nyshak

Nice. Can we get a summary of the final specs soon then? Like cable chosen etc.


----------



## Avalar

I'd definitely cut some sorta deal with RJN when you're certain about the release so you can build a lot more hype.


----------



## winz0r

@bst Can you confirm me the address change from US to Sweden was indeed done, I still see the US one as the shipping address on the campaign.


----------



## bst

nyshak said:


> Nice. Can we get a summary of the final specs soon then? Like cable chosen etc.


- The cable is braided (black) with PP coated wires inside.
- The feet are Tiger Arc V2 (pure PTFE), and there are 12 circular feet in the box by Hotline (the reason for Hotlines is because the Tigers are expensive and made in a different way which makes including a bunch of circular ones more difficult). The circular mouse feet are mainly there for modding, 3D printing, slight weight reduction.
- Front L&R clicks are custom LK Optical switches, MMB/DPI is quite a nice switch by "Cheng Fe" I think (can't remember the exact name, the Razer Viper uses them as side buttons), and the side buttons are TTC. 
- Scroll wheel ls LK Optical.
- Sensor is 3360.
- The weight is 79/80g, (alpha/beta), with the cable. The old weight was 86/87g, the removed parts to account for the 7g reduction are the magnets (-1.12g) and the PCB being made thinner by 0.8mm (-5.98g). If you still wanted to use magnets for some reason (I don't think its necessary), you can fit 1.5x5.5mm neo magnets, I don't want to include them loose in the box though, because they are very dangerous to children/animals if swallowed. You can also reduce the weight a bit more, to 77/78g if you use the circular mouse feet.

Those are the main specs, if theres anything else you'd like to know, feel free to ask.



Avalar said:


> I'd definitely cut some sorta deal with RJN when you're certain about the release so you can build a lot more hype.


I will 



winz0r said:


> @bst Can you confirm me the address change from US to Sweden was indeed done, I still see the US one as the shipping address on the campaign.


Yes, it's done, I can't change the country in Indiegogo, so it won't show on there, but you are on the list I use for alterations (when I export all of the orders from Indiegogo for shipping, I use that list to make any changes that I couldn't make before).


----------



## chort

bst said:


> - The cable is braided (black) with PP coated wires inside.
> - The feet are Tiger Arc V2 (pure PTFE), and there are 12 circular feet in the box by Hotline (the reason for Hotlines is because the Tigers are expensive and made in a different way which makes including a bunch of circular ones more difficult). The circular mouse feet are mainly there for modding, 3D printing, slight weight reduction.
> - Front L&R clicks are custom LK Optical switches, MMB/DPI is quite a nice switch by "Cheng Fe" I think (can't remember the exact name, the Razer Viper uses them as side buttons), and the side buttons are TTC.
> - Scroll wheel ls LK Optical.
> - Sensor is 3360.
> - The weight is 79/80g, (alpha/beta), with the cable. The old weight was 86/87g, the removed parts to account for the 7g reduction are the magnets (-1.12g) and the PCB being made thinner by 0.8mm (-5.98g). If you still wanted to use magnets for some reason (I don't think its necessary), you can fit 1.5x5.5mm neo magnets, I don't want to include them loose in the box though, because they are very dangerous to children/animals if swallowed. You can also reduce the weight a bit more, to 77/78g if you use the circular mouse feet.
> 
> Those are the main specs, if theres anything else you'd like to know, feel free to ask.
> 
> 
> 
> I will
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's done, I can't change the country in Indiegogo, so it won't show on there, but you are on the list I use for alterations (when I export all of the orders from Indiegogo for shipping, I use that list to make any changes that I couldn't make before).


can you elaborate on the cable? it's not gonna be paracord like?


----------



## bst

chort said:


> can you elaborate on the cable? it's not gonna be paracord like?


Its like a paracord, same cable as on FM mice.


----------



## apaperpiece

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but what would magnets be used for? Is the 3389 sensor no longer an option? And finally do you have any more pictures?


----------



## winz0r

Great, thank you.


----------



## lurkerguy

Super excited to try all the different mouse buttons but especially the customized optical switches since like I said in Hati thread, it's boring how everyone goes for the same switches.


----------



## nyshak

So weight without the cable is?


----------



## bst

apaperpiece said:


> Sorry if these are dumb questions, but what would magnets be used for? Is the 3389 sensor no longer an option? And finally do you have any more pictures?


Magnets just pull the side panels in, but it's so minor that they're not really worth it IMO. There are other things that keep it in place.
Maybe the 3389 has shorter lead times now, I could ask. I do prefer the 3389, but I don't think theres much in it. It would mean I have to wait a bit for them to make a PCB with it.



nyshak said:


> So weight without the cable is?


It weighs about 1.5-2g, so it'd be 77/78g at best.

Also I forgot to say, the 3D printed beta shell weighs about 55g now (or 53g without the cable).


----------



## Avalar

Since Indigogo no longer displays it on my end, how do I go about claiming my free mouse through the referral system? Somewhere I can submit what color I want it to be? Need that one to complete the set.


----------



## qsxcv

is there a foot around the sensor?


----------



## ATH-YF

Modding questions : What's the scroll wheel diameter & What's the cable pin arrangement?


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> Since Indigogo no longer displays it on my end, how do I go about claiming my free mouse through the referral system? Somewhere I can submit what color I want it to be? Need that one to complete the set.


If you know which one you want, you can PM me now if you like, just let me know your order email, contribution ID and name you ordered with.



qsxcv said:


> is there a foot around the sensor?


No.



ATH-YF said:


> Modding questions : What's the scroll wheel diameter & What's the cable pin arrangement?


Scroll wheel diameter:
20mm inside (what the rubber sits on)
23mm outside plastic
24.5~ rubber outer diameter

USB pins:
D- D+ GS GND 5V
1.25mm pitch (smaller than a standard connector)


----------



## Zakman

@bst any rattle in your latest sample? Does the thinner PCB bring any new concerns with it?


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> @bst any rattle in your latest sample? Does the thinner PCB bring any new concerns with it?


No rattles at all when shaking the mouse. The thinner PCB seems fine to me, afaik the GPW and Razer Viper uses the same thickness. There was already quite a lot of bracing under the front switches, so the PCB doesn't flex at all when the buttons are clicked.


----------



## qsxcv

bst said:


> No.


well there should be. i'm not sure if the movable sensor doesn't provide enough room though.


----------



## RyuKobs

@bst Thanks for the update.

Has the firmware been finalized? Did you add any new features? Any button latency increase?


----------



## winz0r

@bst I sent you another DM regarding an address change. Just making sure it doesn't get lost in a long list of DMs.


----------



## winz0r

Now that the product is finished and has been sent for FCC/CE certifications, can you give us a realistic release date?


----------



## StainlessSteve

apaperpiece said:


> Is the 3389 sensor no longer an option?


The 3389 NEEDS to be in this mouse. It can disable smoothing which is critical for a top-end mouse, and I think that would make this the best mouse on the planet. Right now, it might be second to the xm1 until that change is made.


----------



## Nilizum

StainlessSteve said:


> The 3389 NEEDS to be in this mouse. It can disable smoothing which is critical for a top-end mouse, and I think that would make this the best mouse on the planet. Right now, it might be second to the xm1 until that change is made.


I don't understand this statement. All sensor implementations have some degree of smoothing cuz noise is a reality.


----------



## tombom

Thanks for the updates @bst, this is basically one of the few mice I'm excited for. Used the wheelmouse optical for a long while and swapped it between my intellimouse 3.0 for many years. Just ordered an intellimouse pro to get my fix of classic shapes. Hope this one looks as good as everyone wants it to be. Anyone who seems frustrated by this process is probably not willing to recognize the sheer amount of hard work necessary to pull something like this off. I for one, am amazed, and excited to see the results. Keep it up.


----------



## nyshak

Nilizum said:


> I don't understand this statement. All sensor implementations have some degree of smoothing cuz noise is a reality.


The 3389 is not a must have by any means. AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong) the only real difference between the 3360 and the 3389 is that you can adjust the CPI in steps of 50 with the 3389 instead of 100. Which is a very minor thing. The XM1 is my main mouse atm and while the sensor is great it does not feel very different. TBH since the 3310 most of the real problems sensors had (low max speed of perfect tracking, neg. accel etc.) have been pushed back to a point where they become obsolete. Upgrading from a 3310 to a 3360 will increase nobodys aim by measurable amounts, same for 3360 -> 3389. It's all down to shape and muscle memory.

In fact the adjustable sensor position will have a much greater effect on your aim than anything else on the Astrum. Sliding the sensor up or down, depending on your arm movement, will increase/decrase the distance the sensor will "travel" with a motion, all else being equal.


----------



## RyuKobs

nyshak said:


> The 3389 is not a must have by any means. AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong) the only real difference between the 3360 and the 3389 is that you can adjust the CPI in steps of 50 with the 3389 instead of 100. Which is a very minor thing. The XM1 is my main mouse atm and while the sensor is great it does not feel very different. TBH since the 3310 most of the real problems sensors had (low max speed of perfect tracking, neg. accel etc.) have been pushed back to a point where they become obsolete. Upgrading from a 3310 to a 3360 will increase nobodys aim by measurable amounts, same for 3360 -> 3389. It's all down to shape and muscle memory.


100% this. Muscle memory imo plays a very important role. If you use a mouse with a same shape and weight for years, you will easily be able outaim most people so much so only way to improve more is to perfect your ingame tactics and map learning.


----------



## qsxcv

Nilizum said:


> StainlessSteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 3389 NEEDS to be in this mouse. It can disable smoothing which is critical for a top-end mouse, and I think that would make this the best mouse on the planet. Right now, it might be second to the xm1 until that change is made.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand this statement. All sensor implementations have some degree of smoothing cuz noise is a reality.
Click to expand...

no


----------



## winz0r

RyuKobs said:


> 100% this. Muscle memory imo plays a very important role. If you use a mouse with a same shape and weight for years, you will easily be able outaim most people so much so only way to improve more is to perfect your ingame tactics and map learning.


Actually there has been a study that show the brain gets complacent using the same sensitivity for a long time and it would focus more by modifying it slightly (which is why people tend to perform better after changing it but ultimately goes back to their original setting once the 'new setting rush to the brain' wore off). That same study shows modifying the sensitivity increases your rate of improvement.

You can read this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffe...ence_says_you_should_change_your_sensitivity/


----------



## RyuKobs

winz0r said:


> Actually there has been a study that show the brain gets complacent using the same sensitivity for a long time and it would focus more by modifying it slightly (which is why people tend to perform better after changing it but ultimately goes back to their original setting once the 'new setting rush to the brain' wore off). That same study shows modifying the sensitivity increases your rate of improvement.
> 
> You can read this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffe...ence_says_you_should_change_your_sensitivity/


I find that in a slump getting enough sleep and doing something physical(Cleaning the yard,gardening, exercise, bicycle ride) helps more than changing sensitivity and going back again. YMMV.

Changing to a new mouse also gives the rush, even with the baddest shape for your hand plays really well for a day and the next day the magic is gone xD



qsxcv said:


> is there a foot around the sensor?


I have been reading up on this please correct me if I am wrong, a foot around the sensor helps keep the mousepad from flexing close towards the sensor when mouse is pressed down improving tracking performance.

If so, @bst should try to put one or keep enough space around the sensor so users can do it themselves.


----------



## nyshak

Well, with the Astrum we can quickly change shape for an aim boost then.


----------



## Nilizum

https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/5haxn4/sensor_smoothing/

I guess this guy was talking out of his ass then.


----------



## qsxcv

well yes he is but even he didn't state something like "all sensors/sensor implementations have smoothing". not sure where you got that idea from.

yes there is noise, always, and smoothing reduces the noise in the processed data, but it isn't necessary and with any sensor that i can think of, unless you use a very high dpi, you wouldn't notice based on jitter whether there is smoothing or not.

that reddit post is a collection of both true statements and bs, with some "according to cpate" mixed in...
and some of the true things are outdated


----------



## Nilizum

Thanks for the clarification. Seems i made an assumption. There was a post about jitter/ripple here: https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1251156-overview-mouse-technology.html#user_vii and I seem to have confused 'smoothing' with ripple tolerance or whatever that guy said. Then again, that post is from 2012. 

All I know is i have a dirty assed pad, on an uneven surface, living in an area with a lot of dust, yet my mouse does not jitter like an Abyssus (moves smooth like a baby's butt). Is there not some sort of processing to ascertain that? Sounded to me like smoothing, but apparently that ain't it.

That's where I got my (bad) idea. I feel like smoothing in mice terminology means like 10 different things, or maybe I'm just dumb.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Hi all, I received a new sample yesterday. I think the mouse is finally finished
> 
> To the people who think I'm making money out of this, I'm not, at least not now and not any time soon.


Forget about those face-clowns, they're idiots and aren't worth wasting time on in any way.



bst said:


> It's only if it sells regularly that I could even begin to think about making anything from it personally. I still enjoy bringing something new to life, but if I had known how long this would take, and how hard it would be, there's no way I would have done it.


YES, most here on this forum about 99.9% would never do what you do, ever in their life time. Hence you are one up on most of us here on this forum. Very easy to be petty and nasty towards anyone here it's the online sickness masquerading as 'information' which in fact it mostly isn't. It's all about attacking someone either because the attacker is linked to another adversary whom doesn't like what you are doing or will try and stop the release of your design.

Never underestimate the dirtiness of people, it's mostly in their DNA from birth. Some always feel better when they insult and tear someone else down, it's how they maintain their own pathetic standing in Life which basically isn't much of anything, if anyone actually confronts them in reality.



bst said:


> I should have done something simple like some travel backpack that always seems to sell for $200 each and get over a million in funding


Thank GAWD you didn't otherwise we'll be again swamped with MORE junk that isn't worth buying anymore. Keep the faith despite walking into the Valley of Death - known as OCN :thumb: .

There are still those that value your progress and want something to finally appear at Max Gaming soon...... we want that above all else.


----------



## qsxcv

Nilizum said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Seems i made an assumption. There was a post about jitter/ripple here: https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1251156-overview-mouse-technology.html#user_vii and I seem to have confused 'smoothing' with ripple tolerance or whatever that guy said. Then again, that post is from 2012.
> 
> All I know is i have a dirty assed pad, on an uneven surface, living in an area with a lot of dust, yet my mouse does not jitter like an Abyssus (moves smooth like a baby's butt). Is there not some sort of processing to ascertain that? Sounded to me like smoothing, but apparently that ain't it.
> 
> That's where I got my (bad) idea. I feel like smoothing in mice terminology means like 10 different things, or maybe I'm just dumb.


yea we've learned a lot of things since 2012 :thumb:

dust/dirty mousepad shouldnt affect tracking unless there is a lot of dust on the sensor lens.

see OP of https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...ng-smoothing-mousetester.html#/topics/1554228


----------



## qsxcv

RyuKobs said:


> I have been reading up on this please correct me if I am wrong, a foot around the sensor helps keep the mousepad from flexing close towards the sensor when mouse is pressed down improving tracking performance.
> 
> If so, @bst should try to put one or keep enough space around the sensor so users can do it themselves.


yup. in particular not having one means that the sensitivity increases if you press on the mouse and use a soft pad (this is unavoidable when you swipe left and right in any fps game)

if the main feet are large enough, it's not really an issue.


----------



## Zakman

@bst any updates on when we can expect FCC/CE certification to be done?


----------



## gipetto

@bst, I don't know if you keep up with the zaunkoenig discord but they found a bug in usb_mouse.c all you have to do is grab the latest file from the github( and edit it for 5 button support)

IPS.Blue there is a bug in da mouse
https://github.com/zaunkoenig-firmware/m1k-firmware/blob/master/usb_mouse.c#L199
I don't know HOW it will fail, but for sure it will fail with that setting when you boot into bios
see usb HID 1.11 appendix B
basically, 16 bit values are being used for movement which the appendix b says it can't use (since it's defined as 8 bit values)
probably need an additional configuration to support that properly
also not sure if it's intentional but there's actually 1 bit on the logical and physical minimum which is not hit
can go to -32768 not just -32767

edit never mind, i used diff to compare the two files and there's no difference. must have been a miscommunication.


----------



## The Realest Lad

Hi BST. What is the size of the PCB for the smaller version of the Astrum? Also would you be making a 3D print model that has a similar shape to the M1K or the Rat 1 (without the palm rest and base)? And are the supports, for attaching parts of the shape shells, removable?


----------



## Freqout

@bst - any plans to ever actually update the Indiegogo page? This project is now running nearly A YEAR LATE and *we haven't heard so much as a peep from you in OVER FIVE MONTHS*. We put our trust and our money into this project and you are taking the whole community and their generosity for granted. There would be no mouse project without your backers so please do us the incredibly basic courtesy of posting something - *ANYTHING* - of just letting us know that you are still here and still working and giving some sort of realistic estimate on when you think this might have a chance of going to production. 

From looking through here it seems you spent much of the time in which this has been running late continuing to add features and make changes, and while these all might be great, you have literally said nothing at all on Indiegogo to let us know what you are doing or why you are doing it. All we, the backers, know is that the project is incredibly late and you have gone AWOL.

It's a very very bad look, it's incredibly unprofessional, it's a terrible way to treat yourbackers, and a terrible way to run a crowd-funded project or an actual business.


----------



## 508859

Freqout said:


> @bst - any plans to ever actually update the Indiegogo page? This project is now running nearly A YEAR LATE and *we haven't heard so much as a peep from you in OVER FIVE MONTHS*. We put our trust and our money into this project and you are taking the whole community and their generosity for granted. There would be no mouse project without your backers so please do us the incredibly basic courtesy of posting something - *ANYTHING* - of just letting us know that you are still here and still working and giving some sort of realistic estimate on when you think this might have a chance of going to production.
> 
> From looking through here it seems you spent much of the time in which this has been running late continuing to add features and make changes, and while these all might be great, you have literally said nothing at all on Indiegogo to let us know what you are doing or why you are doing it. All we, the backers, know is that the project is incredibly late and you have gone AWOL.
> 
> It's a very very bad look, it's incredibly unprofessional, it's a terrible way to treat yourbackers, and a terrible way to run a crowd-funded project or an actual business.


name one feature that was added this year, please


----------



## nyshak

Freqout said:


> @bst - any plans to ever actually update the Indiegogo page? This project is now running nearly A YEAR LATE and *we haven't heard so much as a peep from you in OVER FIVE MONTHS*. We put our trust and our money into this project and you are taking the whole community and their generosity for granted. There would be no mouse project without your backers so please do us the incredibly basic courtesy of posting something - *ANYTHING* - of just letting us know that you are still here and still working and giving some sort of realistic estimate on when you think this might have a chance of going to production.
> 
> From looking through here it seems you spent much of the time in which this has been running late continuing to add features and make changes, and while these all might be great, you have literally said nothing at all on Indiegogo to let us know what you are doing or why you are doing it. All we, the backers, know is that the project is incredibly late and you have gone AWOL.
> 
> It's a very very bad look, it's incredibly unprofessional, it's a terrible way to treat yourbackers, and a terrible way to run a crowd-funded project or an actual business.


https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...-astrum-swapable-shells-243.html#post28180894


----------



## MaTpr0F

Thats nice. And how about those who does not visit this forum? Even lack of time is not an excuse since he could have just copy-pasted this post to indiegogo.


----------



## nyshak

MaTpr0F said:


> Thats nice. And how about those who does not visit this forum? Even lack of time is not an excuse since he could have just copy-pasted this post to indiegogo.


True. I just wanted to point him towards the latest relevant news here, not argue his point about Indiegogo.


----------



## didsomeresearch

*shipping?*

is there any new update on when the mouse will ship?


----------



## RyuKobs

didsomeresearch said:


> is there any new update on when the mouse will ship?


Not yet.


----------



## winz0r

You mentioned the mouse being finished over a month ago, a small update even if it's just to state that you're still waiting for certifications would go a long way!

Thanks.


----------



## Elrick

winz0r said:


> You mentioned the mouse being finished over a month ago, a small update even if it's just to state that you're still waiting for certifications would go a long way!
> 
> Thanks.



Suspect he's testing it now, running through the mandatory procedures and what not before airing it, in front of us here on OCN.

Also knowing him, he may change something on the mouse after all we're dealing with a Perfectionist and they are the hardest people in the world to please :cheers: .


----------



## popups

How long has it been since the announcement of this mouse?

It usually takes 1-2 years for design and manufacturing of a mouse.

I suggested when he first had the idea to make a new mouse to make a very simple lightweight design because it's cheap and easy to produce. Trying to design a fancy mouse with a bunch of features requires experienced engineers, many prototypes and long term testing.

Making a simple mouse is easy and the weight will be very low. He could have spent more time designing the PCBs and code to reuse in other designs to save money. People really wanted such a mouse. Look at how successful Finalmouse was. Even Zowie has been making more money selling overly simple mice and recycling the same old PCBs.

I think Logitech will release a new mouse before this one ever is sent out to anyone.


----------



## Elrick

popups said:


> How long has it been since the announcement of this mouse?
> 
> Look at how successful Finalmouse was. Even Zowie has been making more money selling overly simple mice and recycling the same old PCBs.



Agreed.

But Final Mouse cost a lot MORE than his original asking price here. Despite the cost of their current CapeTown, it's not keeping away the inept and seriously deranged (personal experience here).

Zowie, best stay away from that pitiful maker of input devices. They still never changed their loathsome Scroller and their quality, isn't on par to BST's model.


----------



## RyuKobs

Elrick said:


> Zowie, best stay away from that pitiful maker of input devices. They still never changed their loathsome Scroller and their quality, isn't on par to BST's model.


I am assuming you have an astrum with you to speak about its quality. How is the click latency and sensor feel?


----------



## Elrick

RyuKobs said:


> I am assuming you have an astrum with you to speak about its quality. How is the click latency and sensor feel?



Hell no.

His current mouse is like vapour-ware at our place.

Lot's of talk but no airing of actual product. All I'm saying is previous releases were indeed quite solid and decent.

His work is quite honest so I have every faith in his latest product being quite good. But I'm easy to please here because I'm no hardcore Gamer, I just use his mice for Access and Excel work at my place.


----------



## Rhys7

What do I need to do to change the delivery address I've literally got divorced moved house career and had a child since this mouse has been in production

OK I didn't have a child but the rest is true 

Anyone know how you change delivery address? Thanks


----------



## Klopfer

Rhys7 said:


> What do I need to do to change the delivery address I've literally got divorced moved house career and had a child since this mouse has been in production
> 
> OK I didn't have a child but the rest is true
> 
> Anyone know how you change delivery address? Thanks


https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...-astrum-swapable-shells-243.html#post28182000


----------



## RyuKobs

A progress report would be greatly appreciated @bst


----------



## didsomeresearch

have we been bamboozled lmao


----------



## Avalar

@bst yooooooo


----------



## empyr

:|


----------



## muso

RIP, we tried our best boys.


----------



## gipetto

If he wanted to run off with the money he wouldn't have put this much work in to it. But even if he's insolvent maybe it will be open sourced down the line and everyone can order their own 3d prints and pcbs.


----------



## RyuKobs

gipetto said:


> If he wanted to run off with the money he wouldn't have put this much work in to it. But even if he's insolvent maybe it will be open sourced down the line and everyone can order their own 3d prints and pcbs.


I am off to the pub to get drunk. Cheers boys.


----------



## joelsund

I’m not really concerned when I get it, but it’s a year late. The least he could do is update once a week; it would take 5 minutes. Pretty unacceptable that he hasn’t said a word in over a month.


----------



## Elrick

muso said:


> RIP, we tried our best boys.


 Suspect you lot don't work hence the constant harrassment that ensues.

Don't forget this is now where all Christians celebrate our saviour's birth you ignorant tossers, so back off from BST.

It's a time to give thanks and welcome our families at this time of year. Hence all talk about keeping informed about this latest input device, takes a back seat for now.

Also don't forget that the Chinese New Year vacation in 2020: January 24 through to January 30 - hence everything STOPS in that country for their own celebrations.

You see, when people work hard all year round, it's time for them to take a rest. Remember we're not androids or robots built to work 24/7, at least not yet.


----------



## RyuKobs

Elrick said:


> Suspect you lot don't work hence the constant harrassment that ensues.
> 
> Don't forget this is now where all Christians celebrate our saviour's birth you ignorant tossers, so back off from BST.
> 
> It's a time to give thanks and welcome our families at this time of year. Hence all talk about keeping informed about this latest input device, takes a back seat for now.
> 
> Also don't forget that the Chinese New Year vacation in 2020: January 24 through to January 30 - hence everything STOPS in that country for their own celebrations.
> 
> You see, when people work hard all year round, it's time for them to take a rest. Remember we're not androids or robots built to work 24/7, at least not yet.


Clap clap clap elrick to the rescue. 

Just remember mate people have invested their hard earned money into this,they too work as hard all year around to make this money and they trusted this money to bst to fund the production of his mouse,they have a right to ask questions. No one is asking bst to work 24/7 365, just to take 5mins and write an update.


----------



## Cnbs

rip astrum project


----------



## muso

Dude the product is like a year late, i think its fine for us to be abit chirpy.... but constant harassment... are you kidding?? The last update pretty much assured people that we were on the cusp of it being the final product for production.
Pretty much every job , including mine works up to near Christmas and the effect of Chinese new year isn't even relevant to what we're asking about. All we want is updates and detailed information regarding why it's taken so long.


----------



## kr0w

Elrick said:


> muso said:
> 
> 
> 
> RIP, we tried our best boys.
> 
> 
> 
> Suspect you lot don't work hence the constant harrassment that ensues.
Click to expand...

If I submitted projects a year after deadline, I would surely be out of work, and not by choice..

With Chinese New Year right around the corner, this project most likely wont have final designs until February, so I'm thinking atleast June to August 2020 before mouse is in hand.


----------



## ewiggle

Not going to make this long but I stay on lurk, consuming the updates in this thread, so I'm satisfied still with the transparency. I think most of us are but then you've got that small loud minority. Most of us knew going into this that it would be a learning adventure for BST and we supported him because he's a bro who a high level of community involvement and he listens and takes feedback. We learned that much with his previous mice. And well I, for one, invested because I want to help BST do more of what we appreciate him for. That we get a mouse out of it is extra for me but yeah the transparency and the updates in here keep me satisfied.

Carry on!


----------



## dibodibo13

ewiggle said:


> Not going to make this long but I stay on lurk, consuming the updates in this thread, so I'm satisfied still with the transparency. I think most of us are but then you've got that small loud minority. Most of us knew going into this that it would be a learning adventure for BST and we supported him because he's a bro who a high level of community involvement and he listens and takes feedback. We learned that much with his previous mice. And well I, for one, invested because I want to help BST do more of what we appreciate him for. That we get a mouse out of it is extra for me but yeah the transparency and the updates in here keep me satisfied.
> 
> Carry on!



i too funded this project for his journey and didnt expected get the mouse on time as bst's timeline says, as indiegogo project always a years late, but i think you are not the most of them.... most of them funded for him just for reward, doesnt know who is bst. so i disagree that it is loud minority. 



to bst, i know you dont want to make a tale in update, or make void air. but you should know by now, not updating anything creates bigger void air and creates dispution between someone and everybody else, as you can see lately, in this thread. what i understand is that everyone who's mad at update manner is that their expectation on fcc/ce certification should be done within 2 weeks, as you said, but you didnt update over a month. i might hurt your feelings, but you didnt keep up with your promise that you will update at indiegogo on "monday". also i too agree on their opinion, because you could update like "i dont like the changes in pcb, it would take some time" if it was that case dragging time.


i cant even measure how hard the situations you are in, but busyness or chinese factory, or even language barrier will not appropriate explanation of voidness of your presence over month. i just hope you dont run into financing problem.


----------



## Cnbs

I think simple
bst is poor at communicating with people


----------



## Elrick

kr0w said:


> If I submitted projects a year after deadline, I would surely be out of work, and not by choice..
> 
> With Chinese New Year right around the corner, this project most likely wont have final designs until February, so I'm thinking atleast June to August 2020 before mouse is in hand.


Correct but at least it's coming down the line during 2020 (as I said earlier on).

I've got three full sized keyboards due to me during this time period and I haven't started harassing them about receiving all of them, as of yet. 

There are some things you are forced to wait for but you 'young guys' don't know that concept since you all want everything sent to you YESTERDAY :helpingha .


_Amazing that as you get older you understand the methodology of manufacture and distribution of goods and are willing to wait for them (despite how limited our life span is) yet you younger lot, that have almost another 80 years left on your time span, can't wait an extra year for anything._


----------



## joelsund

Elrick said:


> Correct but at least it's coming down the line during 2020 (as I said earlier on).
> 
> I've got three full sized keyboards due to me during this time period and I haven't started harassing them about receiving all of them, as of yet.
> 
> There are some things you are forced to wait for but you 'young guys' don't know that concept since you all want everything sent to you YESTERDAY :helpingha .
> 
> 
> _Amazing that as you get older you understand the methodology of manufacture and distribution of goods and are willing to wait for them (despite how limited our life span is) yet you younger lot, that have almost another 80 years left on your time span, can't wait an extra year for anything._


Ok Boomer.


----------



## joelsund

All people really want is an update. What bothers me is that his profile shows he was online on December 4th. So he's blatantly ignoring everyone.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

Knew what I was getting into when helping fund the project so no complaints there. I just want updates even if it's small, I just want to know if all is well with the project. I would hate for someone to disappear with no word and the project cancelled... BST gave me lots of info when making a 3360 mouse when I'm sure other reps would ignore me, so why not support that? Either way... Just an update is all I ask, no need to harass. I see it as you could just cancel the order and move on. If you funded you KNEW this was going to be a wait


----------



## RyuKobs

-1nf1n1ty- said:


> Knew what I was getting into when helping fund the project so no complaints there. I just want updates even if it's small, I just want to know if all is well with the project. I would hate for someone to disappear with no word and the project cancelled... BST gave me lots of info when making a 3360 mouse when I'm sure other reps would ignore me, so why not support that? Either way... Just an update is all I ask, no need to harass. I see it as you could just cancel the order and move on. If you funded you KNEW this was going to be a wait


Did anyone harass bst? Most of em were asking for an update on fcc.
At the moment I am more pissed reading elrick's comments than lack of bst updates xD

I dont think you can cancel the order unless bst does it and he did say he wont give refunds unless there was a legit emergency.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

RyuKobs said:


> Did anyone harass bst? Most of em were asking for an update on fcc.
> At the moment I am more pissed reading elrick's comments than lack of bst updates xD
> 
> I dont think you can cancel the order unless bst does it and he did say he wont give refunds unless there was a legit emergency.


Well I guess not, must have been elricks comments that concerned me or I miss interpreted what he typed, my bad


----------



## frunction

didsomeresearch said:


> have we been bamboozled lmao



Can you really be bamboozled when there's plenty of information on the internet about previous bst/Ninox projects that were late or never delivered?

Just a willing participant at that point.


----------



## ATH-YF

Hope nothing is going wrong in BST private life, Xmas season is kicking in and that alone can generate extra delay that is not related to the project.
The mouse was almost ready to ship to reviewers for what I remember.
Time is flying.


----------



## gunit2004

Y'all are wilding out in here.

I have an audio product that I backed in August 2016 on Kickstarter that was a lot more expensive than an Astrum (850 pounds/~$1,120 USD) and they only recently started shipping them out like 10 units per week. Probably won't have it in my hands till like February or March 2020. That's 4 years for something that had a similar timeline to the Astrum (about 1 year). But the MSRP for that same product if someone wants to buy it full price at this point in time is $4,000 USD, so it's not as upsetting I suppose 

That's just the nature of these crowd-funded projects. Take your lesson learned and stay away from crowd funded projects from now on if you are that hot and bothered.


----------



## Elrick

gunit2004 said:


> Y'all are wilding out in here.
> 
> I have an audio product that I backed in August 2016 on Kickstarter that was a lot more expensive than an Astrum (850 pounds/~$1,120 USD) and they only recently started shipping them out like 10 units per week. Probably won't have it in my hands till like February or March 2020. That's 4 years for something that had a similar timeline to the Astrum (about 1 year).



Still waiting for my F77 keyboard which has been put together but have to wait along a similar time line as you. In fact it may even go till mid year (2020).

Although I should be out on the streets demanding decapitation of the organizer here, I tend to follow the course of least resistance. Just stay calm and wait because that is all we can do for any long term situation regarding keyboards and/or mice.

Have good thoughts and a positive mindset because it would be way too easy to fall towards the "Dark Side" :thumbsups .


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

Elrick said:


> Still waiting for my F77 keyboard which has been put together but have to wait along a similar time line as you. In fact it may even go till mid year (2020).
> 
> Although I should be out on the streets demanding decapitation of the organizer here, I tend to follow the course of least resistance. Just stay calm and wait because that is all we can do for any long term situation regarding keyboards and/or mice.
> 
> Have good thoughts and a positive mindset because it would be way too easy to fall towards the "Dark Side" :thumbsups .


Oh Elrick, I see you've been charming the locals again


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

@bst please keep updating


----------



## empyr

bst said:


> Hi all, I received a new sample yesterday. I think the mouse is finally finished
> 
> The weight did come down to where I expected, the thinner PCB saved 6g, I estimated it at 6.3g, so wasn't far off. So I'm pleased about that. The thinner PCB looks really thin, but its still very rigid, so its ok. The clicks haven't been affected at all, and actually they improved the side buttons, so it's turned out probably a bit better than I expected. They have improved the adjustable sensor a lot, it isn't exactly how I envisaged it, but it's fine, it works perfectly well so I'm not going to mess with it.
> 
> The factory want to send me a new PCB with some minor changes on, they want me to sign off on it, then they can do the FCC/CE testing. After that, it can be manufactured.
> 
> To the people who think I'm making money out of this, I'm not, at least not now and not any time soon. It can only make money if it sells after the crowdfund, but the crowdfund itself only makes enough to buy enough stock to sell, so that another order can be placed, and then, the small amount of profit from that has to be spent on more stock. It's only if it sells regularly that I could even begin to think about making anything from it personally. I still enjoy bringing something new to life, but if I had known how long this would take, and how hard it would be, theres no way I would have done it. I should have done something simple like some travel backpack that always seems to sell for $200 each and get over a million in funding
> 
> I will post an update to Indiegogo soon. The thing is with Indiegogo is, I try to spare people too much detail, I think its better to summarise things there (like significant stages of the project). People on OCN are more interested in the details, and talking about it. The problem is that theres so much waiting between significant stages of the project, that it creates a lot of dead air on there (it wouldn't be a problem otherwise). It's not so simple to write a sentence in an update, it just comes across as fobbing people off. Anyone who is already suspicious or paranoid isn't going to be satisfied by a sentence. I also don't think its helpful to write out a convoluted story about what has been happening, especially mid way, when I don't have all the answers, because it creates just as many concerns as it would have if I hadn't said anything. At the same time it's making people read and understand something that is honestly pretty boring, and pointless to read, other than it being some kind of weak evidence that the project is still alive. It just feels like dumping all that information on people isn't really fair or nice thing to do. In the end, it's the project being slow that is the main problem, IMO people would get just as sick of reading convoluted updates as they do with dead air.
> 
> When I make the Indiegogo update, I'll go into all the final weights, what'll be coming in the box and so on. I still don't have exact dates for manufacturing, or how long the FCC/CE testing will take, but I should be able to find that out pretty soon. But hopefully now that the tooling stage is over, things can move in a much more predictable way.



Imagine this is very soon two months ago.


----------



## joelsund

Honestly getting a bit concerned at this point. Hope BST is ok.


----------



## Avalar

joelsund said:


> Honestly getting a bit concerned at this point. Hope BST is ok.


Same man


----------



## flaw

For me it's a race, which will I get my hands on first, the astrum or diabotical? At first I was sure it was the mouse, then the game, then the mouse again after this last update from bst, now I'm at 'no idea'. What are the chances I get them on the same day?


----------



## cr4zyprod1gy

lol, same thoughts for me ^^
but i too hope everything is right with bst (and 2GD also....)


----------



## nyshak

2GD is fine, the game will happen. And with Epic behind it now, it will have at least 2 years support after release (teamsize 10-15).
Dunno about bst though, starts getting weird.


----------



## lurkerguy

I expected the reviews to be out already by now since the recent sample was supposed to be final. Stoked for Diabotical as well but I guess I might not be playing it with Astrum on launch

Hopefully nothing has happened to bst and he can give us an update soon on the project, it's been a while


----------



## didsomeresearch

bump


----------



## r0ach

bst said:


> To the people who think I'm making money out of this, I'm not, at least not now and not any time soon. It can only make money if it sells after the crowdfund, but the crowdfund itself only makes enough to buy enough stock to sell, so that another order can be placed, and then, the small amount of profit from that has to be spent on more stock. It's only if it sells regularly that I could even begin to think about making anything from it personally. I still enjoy bringing something new to life, but if I had known how long this would take, and how hard it would be, theres no way I would have done it.


In other words, the only reason to do it is to bootstrap a company by having experience and fully complete physical product that you can walk into a financial center with telling them you created the thing and it's your business, and want a loan to expand the business. Then if it doesn't make money, put everything in one of your relatives names and file bankruptcy. 

So it's not worth doing unless you plan to go big with your own giant peripheral company from the ground up. In order to do that, your first or 2nd gen product would have to be better than what's already on the market (aka Logitech). I've never used any Ninox mouse before, so no idea how they stack up competitor-wise personally to comment on that. The market is a natural selection mechanism that's going to eliminate the unfit. If you actually think these mice beat what's already on the market, then I'd keep going and make more/expand, and it should theoretically make money somehow. If they aren't better than what's on the market, then time to fold.


----------



## Zakman

Is the campaign on Indiegogo locked down now? I'm sure there was always the option of pledging for another Astrum.

Hope everything's alright @bst


----------



## Avalar

Zakman said:


> Is the campaign on Indiegogo locked down now? I'm sure there was always the option of pledging for another Astrum.
> 
> Hope everything's alright @bst


Yeah, says it's closed. Wonder when that happened.


----------



## Avalar

Well thankfully, he's still alive lol.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/OeLUa6D.png[/img]


----------



## muso

I assume it's just got too hard or the factory screwed him and he's trying to work out how to tell people.


----------



## Klopfer

or it's in production now and ready to ship soon ...


----------



## dibodibo13

any update? i dont want to be joker


----------



## RyuKobs

Klopfer said:


> or it's in production now and ready to ship soon ...


or the factory went bankrupt and molds got sold...


----------



## vanir1337

So much positivity in this thread...


----------



## p1r4nh4

@bst I hope you don't take the negative comments to heart. What you are trying to do is admirable and takes a lot of balls. I got your back.


----------



## RyuKobs

vanir1337 said:


> So much positivity in this thread...


Yes the world is a very positive place xD

Edit:-
On a serious note though, I think people(including me) are freaking out a bit. @bst has been very transparent about developing steps and always frequented this thread answered questions, addressed concerns since the beginning, then all of the sudden he goes quiet. In my circle of business going missing like this is usually a bad sign.


----------



## gipetto

I was just thinking that myself. geekhack is littered with threads from failed groupbuys, where the OP comes in less and less or just vanishes completely. bst's history on esreality is similar but he always delivered in the end.


----------



## Elrick

vanir1337 said:


> So much positivity in this thread...


Just like any standard lynching party, which is now quite common in Trump Town.

Looking forward to seeing this mouse and when it finally turns up, the Lynch Mob on OCN still won't waste a good rope and tree for nothing :devilsmil .




gipetto said:


> I was just thinking that myself. geekhack is littered with threads from failed groupbuys, where the OP comes in less and less or just vanishes completely. bst's history on esreality is similar but he always delivered in the end.



Still won't stop the haters with their ongoing lynching.

Once they start they never stop, we need to see him swing in the end regardless if we ever get the Astrum or not.


----------



## RyuKobs

Lynch mobs? Are we reading the same thread?


----------



## muso

How is wanting updates on a project that's over a year behind schedule with no regular updates lynching?


----------



## lurkerguy

Don't want to be mean but Elrick's ramblings rarely make sense so don't take him too seriously. That being said it might be tough for bst since he said he doesn't make money of the mouse since the Indiegogo crowdfunding barely passed and with the prolonged delays he's got to provide for himself somehow

This is my dream mouse since it has the WMO shape I love but at this point you got to accept that it might not come to fruition


----------



## RyuKobs

lurkerguy said:


> Don't want to be mean but Elrick's ramblings rarely make sense so don't take him too seriously. That being said it might be tough for bst since he said he doesn't make money of the mouse since the Indiegogo crowdfunding barely passed and with the prolonged delays he's got to provide for himself somehow
> 
> This is my dream mouse since it has the WMO shape I love but at this point you got to accept that it might not come to fruition


I dont think this is the case since indiegogo sales are closed iirc. As @gipetto said in a above post @bst delivers his products even though they might be late.


----------



## dibodibo13

in my country, there is proverb called "buddah only can see buddah". we arent in the same thread. elrick is in his normal state of his life where lynch mobs are quite common and people naturally wants to destroy other, but somehow where you understand distribution of market by aging without effort to learn it. i too see the disappointed people because of lack of update.  oneday he will show up and gives us surprise, thats what im going to believe.


----------



## alkestos

I think i might be a weird one out but I legit would not even be mad if it turned out this project failed somehow. Only thing I would get mad over is if Bst just took the money and did nothing. That doesn't seem to be the case. I really can't blame the guy trying. I believe he tries, does or tried his best.

Of course, most pleased I would be as a new owner of Astrum but yeah. What a worthless ramble this was.


----------



## flaw

I understand BST's attitude towards updating, not wanting to let people down, etc. I have the same or similar issue. I'm an academic researcher and my research moves so fast that updated information I pass to the funding sources (who want weekly updates or faster) is almost always out of date by the time I send it. Or sometimes I don't understand the data and have 3 hypotheses that I need to explore, but if I tell them I don't understand the data it makes me look bad (which is nonsense, this stuff is really hard to do). Then I feel forced to pick one hypothesis and it almost always turns out wrong and then I look like I'm contradicting myself and don't know what I'm doing. The whole thing just makes everyone upset and doesn't work and I wish people would just leave me alone and trust me to get it done.

I don't know if it's any good, but here's my suggestion to BST: Pick a place to post updates, and log everything you do and update it as you're going. Example, "2020/1/10 - Spoke to factory about magnets". It doesn't need to be in detail, and as dispassionate as you can be the better. Then force yourself to a set update schedule so you can't procrastinate. Release the update log, then give estimated time to finish, and re-iterate that you're sorry it's behind schedule but end on positive note like 'the mouse feels nice' or 'you guys will love this mouse' - update done. He does a lot of this already, but maybe reinforcement of those ideas is a good thing.


----------



## RaleighStClair

So this summer, this year, will be the 3rd year this project has been on going. Since that time I have purchased; Zowie S2, Glorious Model 0, Glorious Model 0-, Razer Viper Ultimate, Logitech G Pro wireless, G-Wolves Hati, the *new* Zowie FK2, End game gear XM1, Final mouse UL, Final Mouse UL2, Final Mouse UL Phantom. This is off the top of my head.

This project is, at this point, an utter catastrophic failure. This mouse is already 3 years too late. BST at this point just give up. There are already mice that fulfill the role this mouse was intended to play -- and have been for years now.

This was a great idea in 2016.


----------



## lurkerguy

Nah, there still isn't a mouse in the market where you can easily swap 3D printed community made shells and none of the mice nowadays lets you customize the sensor position nor is there a mouse with optical switches customized to perfection and very few mice in the market can compete with the PCB used for this one. It also comes with WMO shape out of the box which haven't been cloned in the past 20 years even once so you likely never see another one

This mouse would still be fresh in 2020 if it just was released


----------



## MaTpr0F

Maybe he's really busy and afraid of posting anything and then tend to all the questions that comes with it, and waste time while he could do someting more important to the project. 
Just check his last update and how many question followed and he answered all of them. And this is just OCN, not counting other channels.


----------



## RyuKobs

I have been thinking, do you guys think the original price per unit was increased by the factory since it took so long and the money raised by the campaign is not enough to fulfill all the orders?

Hope this is not the case.


----------



## empyr

Sad times.


----------



## hisXLNC

you know ive been holding out getting a new mouse even though this FM ultralight sunset has been frustrating me, because I was waiting for this. 

I hope theres an update soon so I know what to do.


----------



## Avalar

Yea tbh, I could _really_ use the over 500 USD I spent getting all the limited colors right about now, but I'd rather have the mice. ;C


----------



## RaleighStClair




----------



## chort

for the love of god stop posting in here unless it's actually worth while like an update from indiegogo or if bst himself will post something.
I hate getting my hopes up just because people want to argue and meme here.


----------



## frunction

chort said:


> for the love of god stop posting in here unless it's actually worth while like an update from indiegogo or if bst himself will post something.
> I hate getting my hopes up just because people want to argue and meme here.



Well the Titanic meme could be fitting.


----------



## didsomeresearch

chort said:


> for the love of god stop posting in here unless it's actually worth while like an update from indiegogo or if bst himself will post something.
> I hate getting my hopes up just because people want to argue and meme here.


sounds like a personal problem buddy lmao

BUMP


----------



## Avalar

didsomeresearch said:


> sounds like a personal problem buddy lmao
> 
> BUMP


No, stop that.


----------



## chort

didsomeresearch said:


> sounds like a personal problem buddy lmao
> 
> BUMP


If you seek attention there are plenty of social media platforms that are full of people like yourself to jerk each other's crave for attention that you probably missed out on during your childhood buddy lmao


----------



## RyuKobs

chort said:


> If you seek attention there are plenty of social media platforms that are full of people like yourself to jerk each other's crave for attention that you probably missed out on during your childhood buddy lmao


GJ on actually derailing the thread. Please fight each other on DMs unless you want this thread locked.

Ok thanks, bye.


----------



## didsomeresearch

chort said:


> If you seek attention there are plenty of social media platforms that are full of people like yourself to jerk each other's crave for attention that you probably missed out on during your childhood buddy lmao



me chort, me choose what other people can post, me use ad hominem when you dont do what i say on internet thread.

sorry guys last post in response to this over-controlling weirdo. Feel free to post whatever you'd like in relation to the topic as you are entitled!


----------



## Avalar

didsomeresearch said:


> me chort, me choose what other people can post, me use ad hominem when you dont do what i say on internet thread.
> 
> sorry guys last post in response to this over-controlling weirdo. Feel free to post whatever you'd like in relation to the topic as you are entitled!


No, I don't think I will.


----------



## Elrick

chort said:


> for the love of god stop posting in here unless it's actually worth while like an update from indiegogo or if bst himself will post something.
> I hate getting my hopes up just because people want to argue and meme here.


Yep the OCN Love that you can experience here, can sometime go overboard into this style of reality.

The real OCN bares it's fangs like a Taipan - ready to strike.

Pity it all helps to further muddy this area in regards to getting any extra info from BST. If I was him, I would be scared to chime in here simply due to all this Hate and Suspicion fanfare.


----------



## zergrush

I think a lot of people here need to lower their expectations. The mouse might not even be good if and when it does come out because there has never been a mouse like this. It is a very ambitious effort by bst and I hope it is good, but people here definitely need to lower their expectations.


----------



## Klopfer

a mate asked me right after indigo starts if he can expect this mouse soon? 
I said nope , maybe Christmas 2k19 ... 
so for me everything is fine ... 
I still have no problems with a release in summer 2k20 ... 
2k21 would be late ofc  
I will still love the ability to change from ambi to ergo shape without changing the mice ...


----------



## Menthalion

I'm good on mice now I have the Odin O-, I'll probably cast my black chrome Astrum in clear resin just to look at, and will still think it's well spent.


----------



## djn

scamass


----------



## RyuKobs

Menthalion said:


> I'm good on mice now I have the Odin O-, I'll probably cast my black chrome Astrum in clear resin just to look at, and will still think it's well spent.


Totally opposite for me xD, the last mouse I bought was a venator(I had few more mice but I sold them) which is now falling apart, I wont have the budget to spend on good mouse when the venator dies, so I am hoping that astrum releases before this dies.


----------



## gipetto

It's going to be harder to build astrum and modded firmware in the future as gcc is dropping support for compiling avr (due to lack of maintainers).

https://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2019-09/msg01256.html


----------



## RyuKobs

gipetto said:


> It's going to be harder to build astrum and modded firmware in the future as gcc is dropping support for compiling avr (due to lack of maintainers).
> 
> https://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2019-09/msg01256.html


So closed source generic chinese firmware on mice that are not made by big name companies?


----------



## gipetto

It won't be a big change, mass produced mice will continue to use the stm32 and other 32 bit architectures as they currently do. I haven't tried it but jkicklighters mouse code looks complete which could be an alternative, though not as high performance as the astrums.


----------



## DAM20

Hope it's coming soon, my basilisk is almost broken... I really need a new mouse oof


----------



## muso

At this point i think the silence is quite worrying. a simple yeah , here's where its at would have solved all the speculation. It may be that it's been cancelled and he's just trying to work out how to not get attacked?


----------



## Avalar

muso said:


> At this point i think the silence is quite worrying. a simple yeah , here's where its at would have solved all the speculation. It may be that it's been cancelled and he's just trying to work out how to not get attacked?


I mean, I'd still be cool with a "working on it" or "project failed" after all this silence. ;/


----------



## SmashTV

Yes, the silence is deafening, but remember his track record isn't exactly spotty. He has shown up and kept his word despite the tardiness. 

Sitting tight until then is ideal, provided nothing terrible on a personal level has happened.


----------



## joelsund

I think it's safe to assume it failed at this point. 3 months without a word, no one would do that on something they're actively working on. If however it hasn't failed it's pretty disrespectful to ignore people for this long.


----------



## muso

do we just contact indiegogo so they can put out an email to buyers or something?


----------



## gunit2004

chort said:


> If you seek attention there are plenty of social media platforms that are full of people like yourself to jerk each other's crave for attention that you probably missed out on during your childhood buddy lmao


He's not your buddy, pal.


----------



## ATH-YF

Could be time to contact the other peoples involve in the project :

The factory peoples in priority I would guess.

Are we still under Chinese new year holidays?


----------



## frunction

SmashTV said:


> Yes, the silence is deafening, but remember his track record isn't exactly spotty. He has shown up and kept his word despite the tardiness.


You must have not have been on the esreality forum back in the day.


----------



## SmashTV

frunction said:


> You must have not have been on the esreality forum back in the day.


I was. The Aurora panned out. Just had to wait. 

At least he's not like that guy who wanted 10K (or whatever it was) first and scammed the factory AND the community.


----------



## Freqout

zergrush said:


> I think a lot of people here need to lower their expectations. The mouse might not even be good if and when it does come out because there has never been a mouse like this. It is a very ambitious effort by bst and I hope it is good, but people here definitely need to lower their expectations.


My only expectation right now is for @bst to actually update the IndieGogo. It has now been more than SEVEN MONTHS since he has posted literally anything at all. He never even posted a link to this thread so we could track it here - another backer did. If he wants people not o think they are being scammed (and I do believe this is a totally good-faith effort on his part) he needs to say *something*. We funded this project - the least he could do is take literally five minutes and post an update. I'm not sure why the ever-so-basic act of keeping your backers even slightly in the loop is so difficult here.


----------



## zergrush

Freqout said:


> My only expectation right now is for @bst to actually update the IndieGogo. It has now been more than SEVEN MONTHS since he has posted literally anything at all. He never even posted a link to this thread so we could track it here - another backer did. If he wants people not o think they are being scammed (and I do believe this is a totally good-faith effort on his part) he needs to say *something*. We funded this project - the least he could do is take literally five minutes and post an update. I'm not sure why the ever-so-basic act of keeping your backers even slightly in the loop is so difficult here.


That sucks but there is probably a reason why he hasn't given an update. I have both of the mice he's released and I trust him. Hopefully nothing bad happened to him and at the end of the day it's just a computer mouse.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

I... Just want an update... No one is asking for the mouse.... We paid for this, this is the least @bst could do.... Busy? Probably.... I am losing my patience now.... Just an update is all it takes. Could of asked someone to do the update for him, or update as you're moving forward like a journal...


----------



## SD2

Please bst, all you have to do is just send us a single sentence. No one knows what's going on and we are getting worried. Even a 'the project has failed' would be better than this. Or just anything.


----------



## Nx87

It has been forever - say *something*, even if its the worst possible news say it!


----------



## hisXLNC

hes updating by logging in from time to time i guess


----------



## Avalar

hisXLNC said:


> hes updating by logging in from time to time i guess


Oh damn, like yesterday. Last time it was the 5th. ;-;


----------



## gipetto

have some OC


----------



## lurkerguy

I guess WMO clone wasn't supposed to happen. Perhaps we will have to wait another 20 years to see another attempt done while fitnessing wack ergo shapes and yet another 200 Sensei clones hit the market


----------



## dibodibo13

i edited the comment because i dont want to hurt anyone.
just note that even elrick is not excuse you instead.... the time is way much passed for ordinary people.


----------



## dibodibo13

ATH-YF said:


> Could be time to contact the other peoples involve in the project :
> 
> The factory peoples in priority I would guess.
> 
> Are we still under Chinese new year holidays?



and please yes i support you.


----------



## aayman_farzand

SmashTV said:


> Yes, the silence is deafening, but remember his track record isn't exactly spotty. He has shown up and kept his word despite the tardiness.


He's an individual, and not an established company. It doesn't take much to blow one's track record at an individual capacity.

I have nothing against the guy, but this scenario right here is exactly why I will never invest in "community" products unless its released by an actual company.

This mouse right here should be the new meme of OCN.


----------



## RyuKobs

aayman_farzand said:


> He's an individual, and not an established company. It doesn't take much to blow one's track record at an individual capacity.
> 
> I have nothing against the guy, but this scenario right here is exactly why I will never invest in "community" products unless its released by an actual company.
> 
> This mouse right here should be the new meme of OCN.


Yeah, lesson learned. What I dont get is why bst is not writing any updates. At this point even writing project failed is better PR for his company than staying quiet like this. This is just bizarre.


----------



## Avalar

Could be pulling a No Man's Sky. Silence for a while, then suddenly the finished product appears.


----------



## muso

Nah i think its probably safe to say it's failed 8 months with nothing is pretty suss, now with the whole china virus thing going on it probably doesn't help further. Has anyone been able to get in contact with indiegogo or partners in the project?


----------



## ATH-YF

Talking about the virus, they are putting MARTIAL LAW in the Chinese region where it struck as a way to block the propagation (flights & trains are canceled, peoples forced to stay in the big cities instead of joining their families in the country side as a tradition for Chinese new year), one could say it's an useless move since infected individuals are already spotted in several regions of the world.

Truth fighters know Slavery/Gov is using this a test run to see how they can smoothly deal with permanent martial law in other big cities.


----------



## RyuKobs

Avalar said:


> Could be pulling a No Man's Sky. Silence for a while, then suddenly the finished product appears.


I hope you meant half finished product.

I got it on launch with a friend, couldn't wait to play it on multiplayer lmao.


----------



## popups

Chinese New Year and coronavirus is going to delay things for a few months.

This product is already very late. New sensors and products have been released. At this point, the sensor he wants to use may be at the end of its life.

I would move on from this product. No reason to wait for it when there are dozens of mice that are decent and 3D printed shells are starting to be a thing.


----------



## joelsund

does indiegogo provide any sort of protection to customers? I assume they dont, but if they do, id like to get on that lol. obviously its failed at this point.


----------



## ryan92084

Just had a kickstarter revive and start shipping after 5 years so never say never.


----------



## Zakman

The thing I'm more worried about is the company (Ninox) hasn't published its accounts which were due by 31 January. Don't know too much about this but I believe you face an immediate fine once you miss the deadline. There's no reason to do this unless Bst's properly struggling atm.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08020895


----------



## alkestos

I'm actually beginning to become legitimately worried about Bst. I'm not that bummed about the money used in the product, I knew failure is possibility when taking part. 

Hope all is well Bst. Mouse or no mouse.


----------



## RaleighStClair

Zakman said:


> The thing I'm more worried about is the company (Ninox) hasn't published its accounts which were due by 31 January. Don't know too much about this but I believe you face an immediate fine once you miss the deadline. There's no reason to do this unless Bst's properly struggling atm.
> 
> https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08020895


Of course he is properyl struggling.... with telling everyone this venture failed. He seems to have tried, but it appears it just didn't pan out for us. Like I said earlier in this 3 year old thread, if this mouse would have been released in late 2018, it would have made a killing. Now though it seems like a lame duck.


----------



## djn

The website ninox.co is owned by a company called Grandstand Footwear Ltd 
I would assume he also owns the company. 

http://whois.domaintools.com/ninox.co

Maybe someone makes the call and sees if he is healthy and ok?


----------



## aCz-

At this point I think i should even stop checking this post. 
I hope he is OK in real life but project as it is failed.


----------



## KingzandBean

Just some thoughts, bst doesn't really update unless there's actual progress to report rather than setbacks, Lunar New Year just happened and now there's all this Corona virus stuff. I'm not really surprised there's been nothing to report in early 2020.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## TimeBomb

New update from the Indiegogo. bst is alive!



> Hi Everyone. I wanted to post some good news around now, as the mouse development is finished, and was going to be manufactured once the factory had come back from the Chinese New Year.
> 
> Unfortunately as I'm sure you're all aware, the Corona Virus is causing a lot of issues in China at the moment. I'm not entirely sure when the factory is going to be back, because things keep changing. It could be in 4 days time, or maybe at the end of the month. But no one really knows for sure. Even if the factory opens, getting supplies could be an issue, with all the lockdowns. So its a case of waiting and seeing what happens, I'm sorry to say.
> 
> I know some people are thinking, well, you shouldn't have made endless tweaks to the mouse, and it would have been out by now, etc. But I honestly haven't been doing that, the reason it's taken so long was purely down to the tooling taking so long, and I had pretty much no control over it. The factory looked at it and quoted me 2-3 months, but it took a year. Any tweaking I done with the PCB and so on, was done during this time, so its not the source of the delay. I don't know what to say about it, because the factory just tells me it was a very complicated mouse, and that's all the information they give. I could speculate on things, but in the end, it took that long and theres nothing I could do about it.
> 
> I will hopefully have some good news about the factory soon. One of the things I will be able to show soon, is the Black Knight edition, since their black chrome effect is being done in England. So when I get those, I'll take some photos. I have got a photo from the chrome factory, its not the prettiest photo, but for now it's all I've got of it. This was from a test run, so I'll take some nicer photos of the fully assembled mouse when I get the final bits:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone is wondering if I'll abandon the project, I won't, there is no reason to do that. Theres enough funds to fulfil everyone's orders, just in case people are worried that the tooling costs spiralled out of control - they didn't, there were no extra charges. Actually in the past year I think I only spent about $500 of the funds (for PCB changes, and mouse feet tooling). So its all safe. Its just slow, and I have to admit I tend to avoid reading comments, because I know they won't be good, and honestly I just don't want to depress myself over the whole fiasco any more than I already am, so, I don't like to show my face much, I know I keep everyone waiting for updates, but it doesn't mean I've given up on it.


----------



## RyuKobs

Excellent,I was getting worried for a bit there that something happened to bst.


----------



## Avalar

Hell yeah.


----------



## bl4cklabel

Black Knight Edition, s wants a great, color change.


----------



## Zakman

> I wanted to post some good news around now, as the mouse development is finished ... Theres enough funds to fulfil everyone's orders, just in case people are worried that the tooling costs spiralled out of control - they didn't, there were no extra charges. Actually in the past year I think I only spent about $500 of the funds (for PCB changes, and mouse feet tooling).


Thanks for this update @bst, I was starting to fear the worst! Can't wait till I have my hands on the Astrum.


----------



## Agares

Good to read. Just be 100% there is not a possibility that any of the mice are handled by infected people. Imagine waiting all this time for the mouse only to contract the Corona virus from some unethical Chinese workers lol


----------



## RyuKobs

Agares said:


> Good to read. Just be 100% there is not a possibility that any of the mice are handled by infected people. Imagine waiting all this time for the mouse only to contract the Corona virus from some unethical Chinese workers lol


Are you being sarcastic?


----------



## Elrick

RyuKobs said:


> Are you being sarcastic?


Just good ole US of A stupid.

He probably still thinks you can catch AIDS by kissing someone. Go figure 21st century ignorance, on the rise yet again.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

The update is all I wanted. Just to know that things are working out. I expected the Corona virus to effect a lot of what's going on with the projectnso I'm not too concerned about it being delayed due to something as bad as what's going on.


----------



## t3ram

Ok so release is mid/end next year?


----------



## RyuKobs

Agares said:


> Good to read. Just be 100% there is not a possibility that any of the mice are handled by infected people. Imagine waiting all this time for the mouse only to contract the Corona virus from some unethical Chinese workers lol


Assuming your silence means that your serious please please read up on this.

Here is a link to help

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters

Here are youtube videos if u cant understand what is in the link.


----------



## jawn

Elrick said:


> Just good ole US of A stupid.
> 
> He probably still thinks you can catch AIDS by kissing someone. Go figure 21st century ignorance, on the rise yet again.


what does the USA have to do with it?


----------



## hisXLNC

viruses and bacteria can spread through surfaces though, so I dont know how youre refuting him. 

dont strawman


----------



## RyuKobs

hisXLNC said:


> viruses and bacteria can spread through surfaces though, so I dont know how youre refuting him.
> 
> dont strawman


Novel coronavirus wont survive the trip from factory to customer.

Source
The link in my previous post on World Health Organisation website.


----------



## 508859

hisXLNC said:


> viruses and bacteria can spread through surfaces though, so I dont know how youre refuting him.
> 
> dont strawman


and human stupidity can be spread through internets


----------



## Athrutep

This is the worst part about BST not posting in here. The deranged stuff that is going on in the other threads is leaking into this one.


----------



## bst

Hi All, I assume most of you know about the thread on mousereview, where I posted some more info, answered some questions: https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/f1yote/ninox_astrum_update_14/

I didn't read much of the latest posts in this thread yet. But about the Corona virus, firstly the mice will be made with precautions, eg. cleaning the area beforehand, wearing fresh nitrile gloves and face masks. In fact, as I understand it, the entire factory will be wearing this kind of thing at all times. It survives on surfaces at room temperature for up to 9 days (4-5 days average), and usually the mice wouldn't leave the factory instantly, so they sit in their cartons for a while, then they go to the warehouse on a plane, through customs, then they go from there to customers. So usually it would take longer than 9 days after the mouse and its packet are sealed in the carton before its opened again. Its quite a tough virus, but if it can't reproduce itself, then it'll eventually die. It's safe to wipe the mouse down with isopropyl alcohol if you want to. But theres still at least 3 months to go before that is actually something to worry about. I'll see what happens with other imports from China in the mean time.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> It's safe to wipe the mouse down with isopropyl alcohol if you want to. But theres still at least 3 months to go before that is actually something to worry about. I'll see what happens with other imports from China in the mean time.


All the manic warnings about this virus yet very few have actually died from it, nothing like the Black Plague or HIV/AIDS.

Also another way of killing any virus, is to leave the mice out in the Sun for an hour. Some of the ultra violet rays will kill all the virus or any future ones developing. Also don't forget that this Corona Virus will mutate and change like any virus would, so as to avoid it's own untimely extinction (natural occurrence).

Suspect this will go for the rest of the Year and when the Government finds a cure to it and eliminates all the virus within their population, leave it to the West to carry on the phobia into 2021 and much further.

Nothing better than to unleash the outright racism that the West is well known for :thumb: .


----------



## Zakman

@bst could we get a video of the finished sample, something similar to the one you posted before? Just as a cheeky teaser


----------



## ATH-YF

So we will have to check the forum again 3 month from now. At least that's clear.

How is the software side of things going?
Have you benchmarked the received prototypes ? (buttons latency, dpi measurements)

Best luck to you man. It's almost there.


----------



## KingzandBean

Elrick said:


> Nothing better than to unleash the outright racism that the West is well known for :thumb: .


Idk I'm not sure that being afraid of a virus is racist, irrational sure... but people aren't actually rational.

Not denying that racism is real, just an observation.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> @bst could we get a video of the finished sample, something similar to the one you posted before? Just as a cheeky teaser
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6iGet_EECY


I was going to do one when I get the black knight shell, so I can show both at once. Although, the click are the same as in that video.



ATH-YF said:


> So we will have to check the forum again 3 month from now. At least that's clear.
> 
> How is the software side of things going?
> Have you benchmarked the received prototypes ? (buttons latency, dpi measurements)
> 
> Best luck to you man. It's almost there.


Its all good, nice latency, I'll have to test the DPI again because I can't find the results now, I just done a quick latency test and it consistently scored 5ms faster than the Venator. This was with the full-fat firmware, I could maybe improve it with a barebones firmware with minimal code. I remember a while back I done a test and it was faster, but that was a more basic FW, but also I think maybe I've just got better at testing them. I use the bloody PK test, what I do is find a spot where LMB of mouse 1 and RMB of mouse 2 have good contact, then I tap them together about 100 times in a row, quite hard, so theres no advantage given to either mouse. The results are usually very consistent like this so I think its ok: https://imgur.com/a/13cGYVM
Edit: I wish you could export the results from that PK test, then I could make an average from like 1000 clicks, but there doesn't seem to be a way :/ shame.


----------



## Elrick

Zakman said:


> @bst could we get a video of the finished sample, something similar to the one you posted before? Just as a cheeky teaser
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6iGet_EECY



DAMN, super nice sound. I would buy that model shown without hesitation whatsoever.

The coloured cable and White shell are a winner. When this gets posted on Max Gaming site, my wallet will be opened in a split second.


----------



## RyuKobs

@bst its good to hear from you again. Was a bit worried something happened to you. 

What is the difference between the full firmware and slim firmware?

I didnt think ncov had the same surface tolerance as sars or mers so assumed WHO info was correct. Good to know the factory is taking precautions.


----------



## bst

RyuKobs said:


> @bst its good to hear from you again. Was a bit worried something happened to you.
> 
> What is the difference between the full firmware and slim firmware?
> 
> I didnt think ncov had the same surface tolerance as sars or mers so assumed WHO info was correct. Good to know the factory is taking precautions.


Actually I realised that if I just turn off the RGB on the full fw, it pretty much is the same as the slim fw, because turning off the RGB means it never runs the RGB code (and that is the main difference). I could slim it down even more, but really its already very efficient. I tested it without RGB and it came out the same, so I think my method of testing is just better these days: https://imgur.com/a/tSj7thD

I can get it to show 12ms faster, but its not as consistent, and I don't really believe it, so I think the more consistent 5ms is the real result, which should put it at about -0.5ms on the click latency chart.


----------



## cdcd

bst said:


> I was going to do one when I get the black knight shell, so I can show both at once. Although, the click are the same as in that video.
> 
> 
> 
> Its all good, nice latency, I'll have to test the DPI again because I can't find the results now, I just done a quick latency test and it consistently scored 5ms faster than the Venator. This was with the full-fat firmware, I could maybe improve it with a barebones firmware with minimal code. I remember a while back I done a test and it was faster, but that was a more basic FW, but also I think maybe I've just got better at testing them. I use the bloody PK test, what I do is find a spot where LMB of mouse 1 and RMB of mouse 2 have good contact, then I tap them together about 100 times in a row, quite hard, so theres no advantage given to either mouse. The results are usually very consistent like this so I think its ok: https://imgur.com/a/13cGYVM
> Edit: I wish you could export the results from that PK test, then I could make an average from like 1000 clicks, but there doesn't seem to be a way :/ shame.


You can use qsxcv's program (a.exe) for that: https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...g-attempts-tapping-mouse-buttons-lightly.html


----------



## bst

Elrick said:


> DAMN, super nice sound. I would buy that model shown without hesitation whatsoever.
> 
> The coloured cable and White shell are a winner. When this gets posted on Max Gaming site, my wallet will be opened in a split second.


That one is actually the grey rubber one, but I suppose it does look like white in a dark light. The cord is normally black, that cable is just a spare one the factory had, its a finalmouse cable. The factory said they don't want to make different coloured cables, I think they would if I had 1000 of each colour, but I don't. I would really love to use different coloured cables for each colour of mouse, because I agree with you it looks much nicer, but they are quite against it, I suppose I could have another go at asking them.



cdcd said:


> You can use qsxcv's program (a.exe) for that: https://www.overclock.net/forum/375...g-attempts-tapping-mouse-buttons-lightly.html


Thanks, thats much better  I tried it with 172 clicks, loaded them into excel and got an average of 5.64ms in favour of the Astrum.


----------



## Ukkooh

Is the secret feature that you mentioned in a previous update still a thing?


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I would really love to use different coloured cables for each colour of mouse, because I agree with you it looks much nicer, but they are quite against it, I suppose I could have another go at asking them.


*NO, don't do that.*

If they have produced the item let them supply it out to all the retailers, so that WE can finally get this mouse. I'm happy with what ever coloured mouse and cable you supply, as long as it performs way above expectations.

That alone will be the most important thing to achieve. The looks will always be extremely superficial and unimportant when it comes to hardcore gaming.


----------



## gipetto

I agree with elrick, changes would provide no benefit at this point in production. When logitech launched their g502 hero there was no fanfare or scarcity of supply, one mouse replaced the previous overnight. That's the model you should be trying to emulate.

anyway what was the venator click latency? it's not in the table. iirc was it 12ms? so that would put the astrum at 7ms, not the fastest kid on the block but no slouch either.


----------



## Klopfer

venator was +4.5ms ... same as Logitech G Pro ...
Edit:
it's also in the List here https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mice/1607990-click-latencies-compiled.html


----------



## gipetto

that would put the click latency at -0.5ms relative to the ikari. oh i see the venator in it now, couldn't when i wanted to.


----------



## Klopfer

gipetto said:


> that would put the click latency at -0.5ms relative to the ikari. oh i see the venator in it now, couldn't when i wanted to.





bst said:


> Thanks, thats much better  I tried it with 172 clicks, loaded them into excel and got an average of 5.64ms in favour of the Astrum.


-1ms if I can count correct 
4.5 - 5.64 = -1.14 ...


----------



## lainx

bst said:


> That one is actually the grey rubber one, but I suppose it does look like white in a dark light. The cord is normally black, that cable is just a spare one the factory had, its a finalmouse cable. The factory said they don't want to make different coloured cables, I think they would if I had 1000 of each colour, but I don't. I would really love to use different coloured cables for each colour of mouse, because I agree with you it looks much nicer, but they are quite against it, I suppose I could have another go at asking them.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, thats much better  I tried it with 172 clicks, loaded them into excel and got an average of 5.64ms in favour of the Astrum.


For the love of god no more changes or addition. Get it on the production line and ship it.
You can offer replacement cables that matches later on for a small fee, or just let people make their own paracord cable.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I was going to do one when I get the black knight shell, so I can show both at once. Although, the click are the same as in that video.


The clicks sound that good I'd be very happy to hear them again on a premium shell  It'd be very cool if you can show the mouse off with a 1 min tour of it, and if you're happy with the adjustable sensor and everything's finalised with it, maybe include that since we've not seen it in action.


----------



## Avalar

Zakman said:


> The clicks sound that good I'd be very happy to hear them again on a premium shell  It'd be very cool if you can show the mouse off with a 1 min tour of it, and if you're happy with the adjustable sensor and everything's finalised with it, maybe include that since we've not seen it in action.


^ This.


----------



## The Big Cheese

@bst Can you work on a true-fingertip 3D CAD design? It’d be something like the Alpha shape but without the back hump/part and an example of that is the Zaunkoenig M1K or the R.A.T.1 (just with the ‘sensor module’ alone), and the sensor would be placed at the very front.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

lainx said:


> For the love of god no more changes or addition. Get it on the production line and ship it.
> You can offer replacement cables that matches later on for a small fee, or just let people make their own paracord cable.


This! I'm all for changes and making things perfect but if it's not a quick turnaround for the changes, I'd rather just make my own Paracord or something

Honestly, I'm just glad you and the project are still alive and well


----------



## bst

The Big Cheese said:


> @bst Can you work on a true-fingertip 3D CAD design? It’d be something like the Alpha shape but without the back hump/part and an example of that is the Zaunkoenig M1K or the R.A.T.1 (just with the ‘sensor module’ alone), and the sensor would be placed at the very front.


Its difficult to put the sensor right at the front, because the scroll wheel and switches are in the way, but I can put it as far forward as possible. The smallest shape I've done so far is attached, its about 113mm long. But I could make a version of it which would be more like the alpha, or change the alpha attachments so it has a shallow rear.



-1nf1n1ty- said:


> This! I'm all for changes and making things perfect but if it's not a quick turnaround for the changes, I'd rather just make my own Paracord or something
> 
> Honestly, I'm just glad you and the project are still alive and well


I was just going to see if they would do it, but I wasn't going to try and make them do it if they said it was difficult. Sometimes they change suppliers and what was difficult then becomes much easier. But it would have been a long shot anyway, since they already said no, and I can't imagine it got any easier with the virus, so I'll drop the idea


----------



## thedumninja

I was wondering if you were going to implement Povohat's Mouse Accel into the mouse software. Ive talked to Kovaak about that idea and he thought it would be great to have a mouse have it built in.


----------



## The Big Cheese

@bst When you mentioned “alpha attachments“ what exactly are they? If what I think they are as being those black material things within the mouse that allow for the swappable shells then what about having the true-fingertip thing, that I mentioned in my last reply, have all of the attachments of the rear (in what i think you meant) removed because I don’t really think giving a shape like that to be able to be configured into different shapes wont work out for it and should allow for a more shallower rear. Also are the attachments permanently part of the base plate, which is not configurable into a different shape I think?


----------



## bst

thedumninja said:


> I was wondering if you were going to implement Povohat's Mouse Accel into the mouse software. Ive talked to Kovaak about that idea and he thought it would be great to have a mouse have it built in.


I have implemented it, but it needs software to work, because the firmware needs to know your in game sensitivity, and the accel that you want to apply. It's not really practical to make loads of firmware updates for every combination. You only need the software to change the accel, once you've set it, you can remove the software, or unplug the mouse and take it to another PC, since the accel happens in the firmware. The mouse isn't going to be released with the software, because I want to beta test it first, to make sure it's working well. I haven't really thought about how to do the beta test yet, but it'll start small, and grow, to gradually see if any problems arise.



The Big Cheese said:


> @bst When you mentioned “alpha attachments“ what exactly are they? If what I think they are as being those black material things within the mouse that allow for the swappable shells then what about having the true-fingertip thing, that I mentioned in my last reply, have all of the attachments of the rear (in what i think you meant) removed because I don’t really think giving a shape like that to be able to be configured into different shapes wont work out for it and should allow for a more shallower rear. Also are the attachments permanently part of the base plate, which is not configurable into a different shape I think?


By attachments I mean the swappable shell parts, you need the inner mouse parts to hold the PCB (it has the dual purpose of holding the PCBs, and holding the shells together). Or you can just replace the whole shell which is what was in the picture I attached. There is also another way where you keep the base plate, and replace everything above it. But just making new attachments (ie, the swappable shell parts), is easier, because you don't have to go about removing the PCB or unscrewing anything, you just clip them on.


----------



## thedumninja

@bst That sounds perfect, if you need help with any testing I would be down to try and help if needed.


----------



## MattKelly

bst said:


> I have implemented it, but it needs software to work, because the firmware needs to know your in game sensitivity, and the accel that you want to apply. It's not really practical to make loads of firmware updates for every combination. You only need the software to change the accel, once you've set it, you can remove the software, or unplug the mouse and take it to another PC, since the accel happens in the firmware. The mouse isn't going to be released with the software, because I want to beta test it first, to make sure it's working well. I haven't really thought about how to do the beta test yet, but it'll start small, and grow, to gradually see if any problems arise.


 @bst Check our DM thread when you get a chance - I sent you something very interesting regarding accel for the Astrum. I think you're going to want to take a look at it


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Its difficult to put the sensor right at the front, because the scroll wheel and switches are in the way, but I can put it as far forward as possible.


You have to move the sensor far forward as possible because when the sensor is located above the mid point in any mouse shape the performance is clearly felt in any Gaming situation.

Thought with all the CSGO users out there having the sensor right in between their front fingers would give unbelievable response with any direction chosen by the player.

Those with a sensor located far back on any Mouse shell have worse responses and they of course stop using those type of input devices. No one has ever advocated in placing the sensor in the REAR end of their mice, not unless they have an extreme fetish :wubsmiley .


----------



## gipetto

It doesn't matter what the best sensor position is because the design is finalised, and if you don't like it, then go buy a zaunkoenig mk1. speaking of which @bst I hope you use their srom_0x05 on their github. apparently it's supposed to have better performance, disabling smoothing like the pmw_3366 does at higher dpi.


----------



## 508859

Elrick said:


> You have to move the sensor far forward as possible because when the sensor is located above the mid point in any mouse shape the performance is clearly felt in any Gaming situation.
> 
> Thought with all the CSGO users out there having the sensor right in between their front fingers would give unbelievable response with any direction chosen by the player.
> 
> Those with a sensor located far back on any Mouse shell have worse responses and they of course stop using those type of input devices. No one has ever advocated in placing the sensor in the REAR end of their mice, not unless they have an extreme fetish :wubsmiley .


I would prefer the forward positioning, but this sounds more like a story that you just made up in your head. sensor position is currently completely disregarded on the market, there is no backstory or mice failed because of it. 
and it doesn't matter for astrum anyway, design is not being changed anymore.


----------



## Elrick

numberfive said:


> I would prefer the forward positioning, but this sounds more like a story that you just made up in your head.



Welcome to old man philosophy here.

Most of what I type here on OCN is through many years of common mouse usage hence why I am here to unfurl all this fake-knowledge, much like what the DNC does on a daily basis :2cents: .


----------



## bst

Even the M1K doesn't put it's sensor right under the scroll wheel though. I think actually it doesn't go much further forward than the Astrum, but its just a much shorter mouse, and doesn't have the same amount of button overhang.



MattKelly said:


> @bst Check our DM thread when you get a chance - I sent you something very interesting regarding accel for the Astrum. I think you're going to want to take a look at it


Thanks Matt, it looks really interesting, the one thing I'm not sure about is the final calculation it does on the sensitivity. Basically the mouse as it is right now does its main program loop in 125us (which is essentially 8000hz), so everything has to be calculated in that 125us. The problem is the math in C is a bit intensive for the MCU, so it takes a while to do floating point calculations, and theres a risk it can take longer than 125us. To test this I need a scope and learn how to use it. So to put these kinds of extra settings in might mean it has to run at 1ms, to give it 8x the time to process everything, but even then maybe it might be a bit too much, depending on the kinds of calculations it needs. Its easier to do it on a PC because the CPU is so much more powerful, and it doesn't need to rely on C.



gipetto said:


> @bst I hope you use their srom_0x05 on their github. apparently it's supposed to have better performance, disabling smoothing like the pmw_3366 does at higher dpi.


Yes I use that SROM


----------



## Athrutep

This is the longest time of blueballs i have ever experienced in terms of waiting for a mouse and still staying hyped for it.


----------



## Heffy

@bst I've been lurking this thread since the announcement of the Astrum and I am very pleased now that you are back 

Quick couple of questions regarding the Astrum in its final form:

-Are the switches and scroll wheel encoder still optical? I remember seeing a previous post where you were quoted to be leaning towards mechanical (Omron) switches again.
-In terms of modularity, I know that 3D printed sides will be possible, but are there future plans to formally manufacture different attachments (molded plastic) in the future?
-Will the the software in development for the Astrum allow users to reprogram buttons? Would it be viable to implement repeat rates as well (eg: repeat every X ms when pressed)?
-Finally, you mentioned that the entire shell of the Astrum could be swapped, could you elaborate on the process for such an adjustment? (removing screws? moving the PCB?)

Apologies if some of the questions are imprecise or have already been answered, I'm not particularly knowledgeable regarding the technical side of mice and my memory is not particularly good either...

Ignore any negativity and continue innovating. Despite the delay, I (and many others) still view the Astrum as an incredibly promising project. Keep up the good work!


----------



## hotrodkungfury

Elrick said:


> numberfive said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would prefer the forward positioning, but this sounds more like a story that you just made up in your head.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to old man philosophy here.
> 
> Most of what I type here on OCN is through many years of common mouse usage hence why I am here to unfurl all this fake-knowledge, much like what the DNC does on a daily basis /forum/images/smilies/2cents.gif .
Click to expand...

Did you read this yet, Elrick? https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.03352v1.pdf


----------



## Elrick

hotrodkungfury said:


> Did you read this yet, Elrick? https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.03352v1.pdf


Hey, thanks for that.

Always knew there was a link to where a sensor was placed on any mouse shape. Suck that, flat earth deviants in the field of sensor placement and their ongoing denial. Much like the LNP here in Convict Town, still denying there is any Climate Change.

The higher the sensor, the better the feel within all aspects relating to Cursor movement on the Screen.


----------



## 508859

Elrick said:


> Hey, thanks for that.
> 
> Always knew there was a link to where a sensor was placed on any mouse shape. Suck that, flat earth deviants in the field of sensor placement and their ongoing denial. Much like the LNP here in Convict Town, still denying there is any Climate Change.
> 
> The higher the sensor, the better the feel within all aspects relating to Cursor movement on the Screen.


Did you read the study at all?

CONCLUSION
Our work demonstrates that the choice of displacement sensor position affects pointing performance. *While the study result indicates that a central position is the best compromise*, performance can be further improved with a virtual-sensor device that allows personalizing the position.


----------



## bst

Heffy said:


> @bst I've been lurking this thread since the announcement of the Astrum and I am very pleased now that you are back
> 
> Quick couple of questions regarding the Astrum in its final form:
> 
> -Are the switches and scroll wheel encoder still optical? I remember seeing a previous post where you were quoted to be leaning towards mechanical (Omron) switches again.
> -In terms of modularity, I know that 3D printed sides will be possible, but are there future plans to formally manufacture different attachments (molded plastic) in the future?
> -Will the the software in development for the Astrum allow users to reprogram buttons? Would it be viable to implement repeat rates as well (eg: repeat every X ms when pressed)?
> -Finally, you mentioned that the entire shell of the Astrum could be swapped, could you elaborate on the process for such an adjustment? (removing screws? moving the PCB?)
> 
> Apologies if some of the questions are imprecise or have already been answered, I'm not particularly knowledgeable regarding the technical side of mice and my memory is not particularly good either...
> 
> Ignore any negativity and continue innovating. Despite the delay, I (and many others) still view the Astrum as an incredibly promising project. Keep up the good work!


- Yes they are both still optical
- Maybe, but it costs a lot, so the mouse would have to sell well for that to happen
- You can rebind buttons, but at the moment there aren't any macros, it is planned though. But I'm not sure if a timed repeating action is allowed in tournaments, if other mice do it and are allowed, then it'll be ok though.
- You basically take all the PCBs out, and fit them into the new shell, using the same screws. The 3D printed shells are designed to not need anything extra in terms of parts. There will be guides for each shell, describing how to go about the process. It's not too difficult really, you can't install the PCBs wrongly because they won't fit in the wrong places. The only thing with 3D printed shells is, you don't want to keep screwing and unscrewing the screws, when the screws tighten, they can split the hole they screw into. I use quite thick walls for them, but they are still a bit weak because of the way 3D prints are layered.


----------



## The Big Cheese

Also I don't think sensor positioning is such a big deal as long as the sensor is put at a comfortable spot, appropriate to the grip of the user.

@*bst* wouldn't getting rid of that slope that form from the mouse buttons (edges of end to the rear of the mouse buttons) and instead having it flat be a benefit for finger-tip users? This is just a wild guess from myself.


----------



## PMB

numberfive said:


> Did you read the study at all?
> 
> CONCLUSION
> Our work demonstrates that the choice of displacement sensor position affects pointing performance. *While the study result indicates that a central position is the best compromise*, performance can be further improved with a virtual-sensor device that allows personalizing the position.



there is more: only 6 participants
only short period of training with no chosing of dpi
they themselves say that adjusting dpi is a unknown factor to them, as the sensor postition leads to a higher effective dpi as the tip of your hand travels more distance 



i am somehwhat baffled that there is a paper on this topic; hopefully some better studies in the mouse space will be conducted in the future


----------



## HEATONN

Can someone tell me that when we can buy this mouse?


----------



## Athrutep

Elrick said:


> The higher the sensor, the better the feel within all aspects relating to Cursor movement on the Screen.


100% agree, maybe starting with the g500s back then as my first gaming mouse was a bad idea since its sensor position made me feel like other mice lack something essential.




The Big Cheese said:


> Imagine having a argument, over a period of days, over sensor positioning and comparing people's ideas, on sensor positioning, to flat earthers because I mentioned that having the sensor right at the front of the mouse, for finger-tip, is perfect. also I am not going to be bothered reading that link about sensor positioning but isn't having the sensor right at the front or position to the front sometimes not such a good thing for cla/palm users? now I am beginning to regret mentioning about sensor positioning which caused this
> 
> Also I don't think sensor positioning is such a big deal as long as the sensor is put at a comfortable spot, appropriate to the grip of the user.
> 
> @*bst* wouldn't getting rid of that slope that form from the mouse buttons (edges of end to the rear of the mouse buttons) and instead having it flat be a benefit for finger-tip users? This is just a wild guess from myself.


I am a palm user and we benefit even more. Since with fingertip grip you can position the sensor below your fingertips but with palm you can't.


----------



## Nilizum

I have always argued in favor of a "central position" being optimal. It's great that bst's mice allow tuning of the sensor position for individuals to better calibrate their "central position" based on their hand dimensions and/or grip style.


----------



## ATH-YF

Wait, the main buttons switches are optical and you managed to make them sound like they're not (thinking about the Razer Viper), how?


----------



## lurkerguy

Sensor on center makes for smoother movement but less control, sensor below fingertips gives twitchier movement but better control. Prefer it near top but every modern mouse puts it in the center which is lame


----------



## Zakman

ATH-YF said:


> Wait, the main buttons switches are optical and you managed to make them sound like they're not (thinking about the Razer Viper), how?


Think it's more to do with the shell than the switch itself.

The main buttons do sound like some of the best I've ever heard on a mouse so if bst can ensure that kind of quality on each copy then he's onto a winner on just that itself.


----------



## gipetto

new short update on indiegogo says the factory is starting work again.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> - Yes they are both still optical
> 
> 
> - Maybe, but it costs a lot, so the mouse would have to sell well for that to happen



Don't personally care about the cost here, just as long as it doesn't appear on Max Gaming, for $799.00USD :arrowhead .

It would be difficult to smuggle this mouse in without the Wife knowing it's elevated cost but it really depends upon the day or night, I see it within my browser window that I hit that purchase button.


----------



## ov3rmind

@bst

Do you still have plan to make small version of astrum?

I had wrist problem 3 years ago and I found that I need to use mouse with 36mm height(or less)

I still have the problem so even though astrum is late I want to wait for the mini size.


----------



## Zakman

@bst does the tech exist for you at a cheap enough price to make a low weight wireless Astrum or is that still reserved for big companies that can chuck money at it such as Razer and Logitech? And if it is doable for you, would it be more expensive for you to make than the Astrum S?


----------



## bst

I really doubt I would make a smaller Astrum, at least not any time soon. If the original Astrum had been easier, then maybe, but I don't want to go down that road again if I'm honest. If Ninox was a huge company, and I could do it without crowdfunding, and keep it secret so people didn't get tired of waiting, then I would, but its not 

I would be more interested in making an updated Venator, I've got the CAD model from the factory so it won't be so difficult to match it's dimensions. If I do that then I would keep it simple, so not wireless, but I'd try to make it very light.

The Astrum might end production after this crowdfund, because there isn't really enough funds to order in units to sell. I could order a few more than what has been ordered, but I don't want to use all the funds, because you never know what might happen (like suddenly the shipping fees change and I don't have enough, or just some silly random unpredictable thing).

So I probably need another crowdfund for more mice, I don't know how that would go, bad because the last one took ages, or good because people like the mouse, and it'd just be ordering mice rather than making tooling (so wouldn't be a huge wait). Just depends if people understand that or not. So now I'd prefer to just focus on the backers, and if there is anything left funds wise, then it can lower the goal for the next crowdfund. Might be a wrong decision but I don't really want to push things to the limit and risk things just so I can sell enough mice to buy more, its just stupid IMO, either it sells or it doesn't, if I can do a crowdfund then as many as people want can be ordered, instead of slowly trickling them out by however many I can afford.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I really doubt I would make a smaller Astrum, at least not any time soon. If the original Astrum had been easier, then maybe, but I don't want to go down that road again if I'm honest. If Ninox was a huge company, and I could do it without crowdfunding, and keep it secret so people didn't get tired of waiting, then I would, but its not
> 
> I would be more interested in making an updated Venator, I've got the CAD model from the factory so it won't be so difficult to match it's dimensions. If I do that then I would keep it simple, so not wireless, but I'd try to make it very light.
> 
> The Astrum might end production after this crowdfund, because there isn't really enough funds to order in units to sell. I could order a few more than what has been ordered, but I don't want to use all the funds, because you never know what might happen (like suddenly the shipping fees change and I don't have enough, or just some silly random unpredictable thing).
> 
> So I probably need another crowdfund for more mice, I don't know how that would go, bad because the last one took ages, or good because people like the mouse, and it'd just be ordering mice rather than making tooling (so wouldn't be a huge wait). Just depends if people understand that or not. So now I'd prefer to just focus on the backers, and if there is anything left funds wise, then it can lower the goal for the next crowdfund. Might be a wrong decision but I don't really want to push things to the limit and risk things just so I can sell enough mice to buy more, its just stupid IMO, either it sells or it doesn't, if I can do a crowdfund then as many as people want can be ordered, instead of slowly trickling them out by however many I can afford.


If you were to get really good reviews from high profile reviewers then I wouldn't be surprised if demand exploded for this mouse. Would be a massive shame to cease production and not build on top of all the effort you've put into the Astrum, but I do understand the past couple of years haven't been easy for you since it's the first time you've built a mouse from scratch and have had to deal with all the problems associated with that (comms issues with Chinese factories, delays etc.). Then you've got to go through the effort of communicating these updates to backers and also communicating the lack of updates to backers. Maybe after the release of an updated Venator you could gauge public support for the Astrum? I really don't think it'd be difficult to establish that the mouse is built and all you'd have to do is ask for X number of models to be manufactured.


----------



## gipetto

@bst I can't recall if I or you mentioned this before but I'd love if you could include scroll wheel acceleration. I'm quite happy with my implementation here, doesn't jump too abruptly. It makes scrolling long threads so much easier. 

https://github.com/itsnoteasy/forgotten_dreams/blob/master/bst_gplv3.zip


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I would be more interested in making an updated Venator, I've got the CAD model from the factory so it won't be so difficult to match it's dimensions. If I do that then I would keep it simple, so not wireless, but I'd try to make it very light.



PLEASE carry out the Venator Model update as well, the ankle-biters are interested in it as well. Also provide at least a whole white coloured Venator here, tell the factory to follow your recommendation here this time.

The factory fools should quit in telling you that ONLY Black mice sell, which is absolute rubbish. White models sell as much if not more from all the other major manufacturers.

Time to follow the latest trends from 2020 not 1990 (in regards to the conservatives in the factory).


----------



## Klopfer

I wont buy a White Mouse ...
but I know Im not everyone  ... I also hates RGB ( not just in mice , everywhere ) ... 
and yes , I would agree that white , blue, red , toxicgreen, ... "EDITIONS" would be selling good or better as black ...


----------



## popups

Why am I getting the feeling that BST spent some of the money for the mouse on things not related to the mouse? Is that why the mouse is 3-4 years from announcement? How is 90 thousand not enough to produce mice for the backers and make enough for retail? Why spend all that money just to make an order and not sell the mouse to the public? Did BST spend the money on making a shoe company?


----------



## 508859

popups said:


> Why am I getting the feeling that BST spent some of the money for the mouse on things not related to the mouse? Is that why the mouse is 3-4 years from announcement? How is 90 thousand not enough to produce mice for the backers and make enough for retail? Why spend all that money just to make an order and not sell the mouse to the public? Did BST spend the money on making a shoe company?


you should write an article about this investigation of yours


----------



## bst

popups said:


> Why am I getting the feeling that BST spent some of the money for the mouse on things not related to the mouse? Is that why the mouse is 3-4 years from announcement? How is 90 thousand not enough to produce mice for the backers and make enough for retail? Why spend all that money just to make an order and not sell the mouse to the public? Did BST spend the money on making a shoe company?


I didn't spend any of it on things not related to the mouse. I'm not giving it to the shoe company that's for sure. I don't like footwear, I think its boring, and the stock is a nightmare. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to make a mouse company, I only started one because I like it. Well I used to like it  

Lets break down where $90,000 goes. $37,500 on the tooling, about $10,000 of it is shipping (yeah they include the shipping fees as part of the funding), then there's the Indiegogo/transaction fees of $7,500. So right now I have $45,000. Also there was about $10,000 spent on designing the mouse, which came out of the Ninox bank account, which luckily I don't have to spend again since I learnt from them how to do it myself.

The mouse is not that cheap to make, its about $20 (yes that is expensive for a 3360 mouse at cost). For shipping the backer's mice, assume its $12,000 (don't forget it has to be shipped to warehouses first), it leaves $37,000, so about 1850 mice, but in reality it'll be less than that because there are other charges like the black knight has extra costs. So there are about 1200 mice ordered on Indiegogo, that leaves at best 650 mice I can sell retail, which works out around $22,000 profit, if lucky, barely enough to order 1000 more mice, which works out to around $35,000 profit, almost enough to order 2000 mice, and you can probably work out the rest. But its a long road to making actual profit. 

So while it might be slower, if I keep back the funds for the 650 mice ($13,000), then I can do a small crowdfund for around $10,000. You might say what is the point, if a crowdfund just gets you 350 more mice? The point is that it doesn't waste money that can be spent elsewhere, if it can't even reach £10,000, after it has been in many peoples hands and reviewed extensively, then it was never going to sell anyway, so I might as well move on to something else, like another mouse. But it also gives it a chance to sell more than I could order normally, instead of ordering 1000 mice, maybe I can jump straight to 2000 or more, which would move things along much faster in the long run.

So as you should be able to see, the money just drains away really easily, and things aren't as simple as "$90,000 is more than enough" 

I attached a few pictures: The Ninox USD account which is purely Indiegogo funds, the Indiegogo finances page which shows the net funds, and the tooling costs. Obviously I could fake all of these but it's better than nothing.

Btw I know you are probably semi-trolling, but I wanted to explain things anyway, I'm sure some people will find it interesting


----------



## RAZ0RLIGHT

If i recall correctly, you just produce enough mice to ship to the backers and will stop production for the Astrum after that?
Well... thats bad, i've been waiting forever to purchase the mouse when i checked reviews or i can return the mouse to the shop i purchased it if it doesnt fit me.
Guess i have to look for alternatives now.

Anyway, i hope you will change your plans in this case.


----------



## ATH-YF

The best selling point for the Astrum is it's innovations, you're attempting moves not even big brands have the guts to do yet (modular, sensor adjustments, true ambi).
Until the era of decent reviewers many of their designs changes were impractical now we are finally getting what we've been asking. (good feet, really light weight range, shapes for specific grip styles / hand sizes, great cables if not wireless)

Astrum success could also depend on the timing because as I see it brands are stepping up their game.
It's like they are waiting the others to take the risks (and deal with the annoyances) and jump on the trend once it's confirmed.
Others don't even care and rely only on their brand name to keep going.


The Astrum S could be designed by removing the empty space located at the back and bring the screw closer to the PCB.


----------



## bst

RAZ0RLIGHT said:


> If i recall correctly, you just produce enough mice to ship to the backers and will stop production for the Astrum after that?
> Well... thats bad, i've been waiting forever to purchase the mouse when i checked reviews or i can return the mouse to the shop i purchased it if it doesnt fit me.
> Guess i have to look for alternatives now.
> 
> Anyway, i hope you will change your plans in this case.


I'm not going to stop the production, unless I really have to, its really the last thing I would want to do. All I'm doing is making the backers mice first, and crowdfunding for the next order, because in the end it will let more people buy it at once.


----------



## Heleii

Are the dimensions of Alpha exactly the same as Aurora's?


----------



## RAZ0RLIGHT

bst said:


> I'm not going to stop the production, unless I really have to, its really the last thing I would want to do. All I'm doing is making the backers mice first, and crowdfunding for the next order, because in the end it will let more people buy it at once.


Great, guess i misunderstood you, sorry.
Can't wait when the mouse will hit shelves or alteast gets some reviews.


----------



## NicoNicoNii

bst are you ever going to do another run of the venator? I want to get a backup copy just in case my current one breaks.


----------



## zergrush

This mouse will be on Amazon.com, right? That's where I purchased the Aurora and Venator from.


----------



## Zakman

@bst will the shoelace cable make it difficult for the mouse to be CE/FCC certified or will that be a non-issue in the end? And how do you plan on packaging the mouse so that the cable doesn't tangle in the box?


----------



## bst

NicoNicoNii said:


> bst are you ever going to do another run of the venator? I want to get a backup copy just in case my current one breaks.


I've still got a small amount of black ones, and quite a few white ones, I forgot there were some in a warehouse. I was going to send them to Amazon, but I think at the moment they don't allow any new stock, I have to check again.



zergrush said:


> This mouse will be on Amazon.com, right? That's where I purchased the Aurora and Venator from.


Eventually, its the plan, but it won't be available straight away, I might even need another crowd fund to get stock. I explained it all in the last page or so.



Zakman said:


> @bst will the shoelace cable make it difficult for the mouse to be CE/FCC certified or will that be a non-issue in the end? And how do you plan on packaging the mouse so that the cable doesn't tangle in the box?


I don't foresee any problems with the FCC/CE.

There was only one way to package the cable, it comes out straight from the front of the mouse, about 3cm, and it sits in its own area , where its folded up, but in quite long segments. Imagine it like a T shape where the front of the mouse is at the bottom of the T, and the cable is folded up in the top of the T. I know its not the absolute best way to do it, its better to do it in a circular shape, but firstly the factory said no to that, and secondly its already quite a large box, so it would have ended up making it larger, and thirdly all the parts/mouse/cable etc are in a molded foam, so its not like the plastic ones where its easier to make the cable a circle (because of the recess around the edges underneath).


----------



## bst

I'm sorry for those that this affects, but I have a bit of an issue with the green colour, the problem is that only 26 of them have been ordered. The paint supplier to the factory is refusing to paint such a small amount.

The only thing I can do is put up a survey, where you enter your contribution number, and you can choose another colour. I will put the survey up over the weekend on Indiegogo, so this is just a heads up to give you a bit of extra time to think about what colour you would like.

Another option is if you prefer, you could have a black or white mouse, along with an extra shell in a special colour (blue, red, purple or grey). But just be aware that I have to pick that order myself, so it might incur a small delay.

I'm sorry, I did think they would do it, but one of the problems is that the factory changed supplier since the crowd fund, so it made even getting the other colours difficult enough


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I don't foresee any problems with the FCC/CE.
> 
> There was only one way to package the cable, it comes out straight from the front of the mouse, about 3cm, and it sits in its own area , where its folded up, but in quite long segments. Imagine it like a T shape where the front of the mouse is at the bottom of the T, and the cable is folded up in the top of the T. I know its not the absolute best way to do it, its better to do it in a circular shape, but firstly the factory said no to that, and secondly its already quite a large box, so it would have ended up making it larger, and thirdly all the parts/mouse/cable etc are in a molded foam, so its not like the plastic ones where its easier to make the cable a circle (because of the recess around the edges underneath).


Sounds good, I imagine the box must be a fair bit bigger than others to accommodate the other modular parts. Have you decided what kind of shoelace cable the mouse will get? It seems like the newest Razer Viper has the best one so far.



> I'm sorry for those that this affects, but I have a bit of an issue with the green colour, the problem is that only 26 of them have been ordered. The paint supplier to the factory is refusing to paint such a small amount.


To be fair to you, you've done better than almost every other company out there by offering all these colours in the first place. Is green the only colour they said they won't do due to lack of demand? All the other colours are safe?


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> Sounds good, I imagine the box must be a fair bit bigger than others to accommodate the other modular parts. Have you decided what kind of shoelace cable the mouse will get? It seems like the newest Razer Viper has the best one so far.


Yeah, the box is pretty much twice the width of the Venator box. The outer material of the cord is the same as FM's, and the wires inside are coated with PP rather than PVC, so they're more flexible.



Zakman said:


> To be fair to you, you've done better than almost every other company out there by offering all these colours in the first place. Is green the only colour they said they won't do due to lack of demand? All the other colours are safe?


Green is the only one they won't do, so the other colours are safe.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> Yeah, the box is pretty much twice the width of the Venator box. The outer material of the cord is the same as FM's, and the wires inside are coated with PP rather than PVC, so they're more flexible.
> 
> 
> 
> Green is the only one they won't do, so the other colours are safe.


So, we'd be voting on another one of the available colors to replace green, or requesting our chosen color individually? Either way, I vote for another blue! I'm assuming another Black Knight one is not an option lol.


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> Green is the only one they won't do, so the other colours are safe.



They have never seen British Racing Green, if this mouse had that colour you would get people such as myself buying at least six of them to clutch and hold forever more.

Stroking the *GREEN* is what excites me more than anything else in this World TODAY :thumb: .


----------



## Klopfer

British Racing Green is the best Green !
every Aston Martin looks great in that colour


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> So, we'd be voting on another one of the available colors to replace green, or requesting our chosen color individually? Either way, I vote for another blue! I'm assuming another Black Knight one is not an option lol.


Request the chosen colour individually, for each green mouse you had ordered, and the choices are the normal colours, no new colours.
So the form looks something like:
Contribution ID:
Colour: 
Extra Colour 1:
Extra Colour 2:
etc...

If you ordered more than one green mouse, you need to fill out the extra colours, if you just have one green mouse then you don't need to worry about the extra ones.



Elrick said:


> They have never seen British Racing Green, if this mouse had that colour you would get people such as myself buying at least six of them to clutch and hold forever more.
> 
> Stroking the *GREEN* is what excites me more than anything else in this World TODAY :thumb: .





Klopfer said:


> British Racing Green is the best Green !
> every Aston Martin looks great in that colour


Yeah actually I would go more with that kind of green now, if I could go back. It did look nice in the flesh though. 






I like these greens, the Aston is more like BRG, but I also like the army style green on the BMW:
https://www.bmw-m.com/content/dam/b...lours-vol-4-ig-03.jpg.asset.1530712162964.jpg
https://f7432d8eadcf865aa9d9-9c672a...3.rackcdn.com/C2299/U8297/IMG_33722-large.jpg


----------



## bst

The colours on the grey, blue and red mice are basically these colours (except in matte), btw:
https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/im...i-r8-rs3-sedan-rs5-and-rs3-hatch-123423_1.jpg
https://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2016/09/TAG-Motorsports-Audi-R8-0.jpg
https://mochamanstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2017-Alfa-Romeo-Giulia-Quadrifoglio.jpg


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> The colours on the grey, blue and red mice are basically these colours (except in matte), btw:



If pushed, then I'll get the *Red* and *Blue* ones here.

If only the *GREEN* presented itself....... then the World would indeed be a far brighter place to Live in.


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> The colours on the grey, blue and red mice are basically these colours (except in matte), btw:
> https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/im...i-r8-rs3-sedan-rs5-and-rs3-hatch-123423_1.jpg
> https://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2016/09/TAG-Motorsports-Audi-R8-0.jpg
> https://mochamanstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2017-Alfa-Romeo-Giulia-Quadrifoglio.jpg


Green was the color mouse I chose to get for free because of my 5 referrals, so I don't have a confirmation ID for that. What do?


----------



## k0fz

@bst Would you mind sharing the STL file for the Astrum and the 3D scanned WMO that you posted some pictures of last year? Thanks


----------



## bst

Avalar said:


> Green was the color mouse I chose to get for free because of my 5 referrals, so I don't have a confirmation ID for that. What do?


I've put the survey up on Indiegogo now, you can fill it in here: https://s.surveyplanet.com/7IYWsHpD1



k0fz said:


> @bst Would you mind sharing the STL file for the Astrum and the 3D scanned WMO that you posted some pictures of last year? Thanks


Sorry but I just done a spring clean on my PC and need to install everything again, I'll get round to it soon.


----------



## k0fz

Much appreciated


----------



## Ukkooh

Is the secret feature you mentioned in update 13 still a thing? :thinking:


----------



## bst

Ukkooh said:


> Is the secret feature you mentioned in update 13 still a thing? :thinking:


Its not a secret 'feature' really, its just something I didn't shout about, I just didn't want to lay out the whole plan early on. But since then its been revealed in drips and drabs. To some people it will seem obvious, but the whole idea hasn't been done yet afaik.

Basically its just because the Astrum has a modular PCB, it can fit in lots of different shapes and sizes of shell. So the whole idea is tiered modding, like:
Tier 1: Change the panels
Tier 2: Change the entire top shell
Tier 3: Change the whole shell

Then you have a website where you can download the models (for free) which are designed to fit the mouse/PCB, with instructions etc, and links to places where you can order the parts to be printed. So its something that is intended to grow over time, and community designs are welcomed. 

I think I said before that its a bit ahead of its time, when 3D printing is more cost effective, and the quality is better, then I think it'll become a lot more common. Kind of turning mice into PC cases where you get the components and fit it into whatever case you like best. 

It also works well from an environmental and business perspective too. Instead of making each mouse product in bulk, you can just make one product in bulk, and that product can be compatible with lots of shells, which can be printed one at a time. So for a small business it works quite well, because you can only have to order 1000 mice, but that can essentially 'be' as many shapes as you can design. Like normally if you have 100 products, you have to order 100,000 units in total to re-stock, but if your shells are 3D printed, then you can have 100 products, but you only have to order 1,000 units to restock, saving the cost of 99,000 units (I realise thats a bit of an extreme example, but just trying to highlight that you can offer a lot of choice with very low costs). Also you don't have to create a lot of electronic waste, since people can try out lots of shells without having to re-buy the components inside.


----------



## Zakman

@bst could we get a video showing how the adjustable sensor works? Maybe once you've got the final sample of the Astrum?


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> @bst could we get a video showing how the adjustable sensor works? Maybe once you've got the final sample of the Astrum?


I will make a full video, like a tutorial, where it will show that. But basically you just push it and it clicks into place, its quite stiff so once its in place, it doesn't move.

I've got a photo of the foam inside the box, for those interested, see attached!


----------



## pez

That's exciting! I've been keeping an eye on your email updates and (admittedly infrequently) this thread. Glad to see we're so close to shipping out. Any set date at this point? (It's possible you said or the email did and I totally missed it)


----------



## Avalar

bst said:


> I will make a full video, like a tutorial, where it will show that. But basically you just push it and it clicks into place, its quite stiff so once its in place, it doesn't move.
> 
> I've got a photo of the foam inside the box, for those interested, see attached!


Can't wait! Need this mouse ASAP. Glorious Model D is starting to show some signs of wear. D;

I'm debating on whether I should actually use my favorite color, or my 2nd favorite from the set lol.


----------



## Zakman

bst said:


> I will make a full video, like a tutorial, where it will show that. But basically you just push it and it clicks into place, its quite stiff so once its in place, it doesn't move.


Sounds good, I was wondering how intuitive it is to use and how durable it is. As long as it's simple to use and won't snap off easily then that'll satisfy everyone.



> I've got a photo of the foam inside the box, for those interested, see attached!


It looks 100% premium. I'm assuming the empty vertical space is for the cable but what are the other 2 empty spaces for?


----------



## a_ak57

Zakman said:


> Sounds good, I was wondering how intuitive it is to use and how durable it is. As long as it's simple to use and won't snap off easily then that'll satisfy everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks 100% premium. I'm assuming the empty vertical space is for the cable but what are the other 2 empty spaces for?



My guess is that it's the two top shells (and that the mouse has nothing attached by default).


----------



## ATH-YF

bst said:


> I will make a full video, like a tutorial, where it will show that. But basically you just push it and it clicks into place, its quite stiff so once its in place, it doesn't move.
> 
> I've got a photo of the foam inside the box, for those interested, see attached!


If the cable is stressed too much inside the box I have ideas to solve this looking at the picture.

Put the mouse at the very left or right side, the cable compartment at the very top then relocate the other holes accordingly.
This will allow the cable to bend gently in the box.

The presentation might look odd at first but once the user understand why they will appreciate it greatly.


----------



## bst

Zakman said:


> It looks 100% premium. I'm assuming the empty vertical space is for the cable but what are the other 2 empty spaces for?


The mouse comes assembled as the beta style. The hole on the left is for the Alpha top shell (or, you can put the Beta top shell in there when you're not using it), and the one on the right is for extra mouse feet, side buttons/blanks.



ATH-YF said:


> If the cable is stressed too much inside the box I have ideas to solve this looking at the picture.
> 
> Put the mouse at the very left or right side, the cable compartment at the very top then relocate the other holes accordingly.
> This will allow the cable to bend gently in the box.
> 
> The presentation might look odd at first but once the user understand why they will appreciate it greatly.


It should be ok, the stress relief for the cable sits under the mouse quite a way (under the front buttons), so there's more room in front for the cable than it looks. Also the mouse has to sit in a central location because theres a window showing the mouse, and it'd look strange if it were off to the side. It doesn't necessarily need the window, but I want it because it makes mistakes with the colours less likely.


----------



## ThomasMW

Could you please check ticket 979? I sent it a month ago and have not received any reply yet. It's about changing delivery address (including the country).


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

Nice to see BST still in business (was getting worried with the Amazon products being out of stock).


----------



## Elrick

bst said:


> I will make a full video, like a tutorial, where it will show that. But basically you just push it and it clicks into place, its quite stiff so once its in place, it doesn't move.
> 
> I've got a photo of the foam inside the box, for those interested, see attached!



Damn, sweeter than anything coming out of Logitech or Razer Corp. Dare I say it, looks to be far more premium and special compared to any other previous release of any company.

Getting excited for this particular mouse model.


----------



## empyr

Any updates to this @bst ?


----------



## Avalar

updaaaaaaate?


----------



## MMGam

*umm*

any update ?
I know Covid-19 influence, but you may have some update and post it.

it is too long to wait without info.


----------



## senileoldman

BST'D.


----------



## Athrutep

Here is your update. Corona delays it by at least the start of next year, then there is Chinese new year again, so earliest date would be summer 2021.


----------



## Hemanse

By the time this mouse comes out, we are going to have levitating mice.


----------



## lurkerguy

I would still love that WMO shape but I have already moved to wireless and play less FPS games now so dunno if I even used the mouse much after getting it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## rijst

Hi bst, is there an option for glossy white or black chrome instead of the matte green? 
I've ordered the 5 pack of colors, and choosing any alternative for the green would give me 2x the same color.
I'm willing to pay for the delta of the black chrome, since it was 20 euros more expensive than the other colors.


----------



## empyr

It seemed like the mouse was so close to completion based on his last post, and of course COVID 19 may have delayed certain things, but at the same time..
It's been two months since people were asked to change colors from green to something else. Time goes by fast.


How is there no updates?

I don't get it.


----------



## Athrutep

empyr said:


> It seemed like the mouse was so close to completion based on his last post, and of course COVID 19 may have delayed certain things, but at the same time..
> It's been two months since people were asked to change colors from green to something else. Time goes by fast.
> 
> 
> How is there no updates?
> 
> I don't get it.


He explained it in an earlier post, sometimes its good to just keep working and ignore everything else. The mouse is coming, but not anytime soon. He keeps battling with some issues still. But its very close to being finished. I am too lazy to search that post, so feel free go back a few pages and read his response.


----------



## ThomasMW

Honestly... I regret ever joining this. I can't even get anyone to reply to my ticket.


----------



## djn

My previous post was deleted by mods, I can only assume because it was reported by the OP, I have replaced the word with bullwinkle

Soon as I get this mouse I'm going to send it to China and have it reverse engineered and sell it for half the cost.. just to spite this Bullwinkle campaign.


----------



## 508859

djn said:


> My previous post was deleted by mods, I can only assume because it was reported by the OP, I have replaced the word with bullwinkle
> 
> Soon as I get this mouse I'm going to send it to China and have it reverse engineered and sell it for half the cost.. just to spite this Bullwinkle campaign.


and for all the money that you get you can then check your mental health.


----------



## RyuKobs

@djn maybe you should talk to a friend about your issues. I know this coronavirus crap stressing everyone out but please take care of your anger issues before it becomes worse and you do something you will really regret.

Take care.


----------



## djn

numberfive said:


> and for all the money that you get you can then check your mental health.


My therapist said its a phase, but you keep riding that pogo stick


----------



## djn

RyuKobs said:


> @djn maybe you should talk to a friend about your issues. I know this coronavirus crap stressing everyone out but please take care of your anger issues before it becomes worse and you do something you will really regret.
> 
> Take care.


Will you be my friend ? you sound like someone who would be a great friend ....


----------



## Elrick

djn said:


> Will you be my friend ? you sound like someone who would be a great friend ....



We're all friends, here on OCN :cheers: .


----------



## Athrutep

Elrick said:


> We're all friends, here on OCN :cheers: .


Except when someone asks for proof to anything "feeling" related, then its knifes out.


----------



## 508859

djn said:


> My therapist said its a phase, but you keep riding that pogo stick


most crowdfunding projects fail and not deliver anything at all. were you aware of this when you chipped in? 
because I was, and I'm not riding a stick, I'm not attached to those 50-70$ that I've paid long time ago, I stopped being attached when payment was completed.


----------



## djn

numberfive said:


> most crowdfunding projects fail and not deliver anything at all. were you aware of this when you chipped in?
> because I was, and I'm not riding a stick, I'm not attached to those 50-70$ that I've paid long time ago, I stopped being attached when payment was completed.


Just 9% of successfully funded Kickstarter projects fail to deliver. Almost one in 10 of fully funded projects on crowdfunding site Kickstarter fail to deliver rewards to their backers, according to new research.Dec 10, 2015
CNBC.COM


----------



## 508859

djn said:


> Just 9% of successfully funded Kickstarter projects fail to deliver. Almost one in 10 of fully funded projects on crowdfunding site Kickstarter fail to deliver rewards to their backers, according to new research.Dec 10, 2015
> CNBC.COM


https://www.kickstarter.com/help/stats 38% overall success rate, with projects in technology field having 20%
indiegogo doesn't disclose, but has lower numbers.


----------



## Zakman

@bst do you have the Xtrfy M4? Just got it recently and I love the shape. Wondering if it feels similar to the Beta IE shell.

Also, is it easy to get to the PCB without removing mouse feet?


----------



## djn

numberfive said:


> https://www.kickstarter.com/help/stats 38% overall success rate, with projects in technology field having 20%
> indiegogo doesn't disclose, but has lower numbers.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...sen%20reward&usg=AOvVaw04AvZgdSHMnVAHDlV1xEiU

We are talking funded projects, you cant deliver something that was never funded.


----------



## DAM20

Maybe is coming out for Overwatch 2


----------



## 508859

djn said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...sen%20reward&usg=AOvVaw04AvZgdSHMnVAHDlV1xEiU
> 
> We are talking funded projects, you cant deliver something that was never funded.


1) I've invested before it was funded
2) kickstarter is not indiegogo
3) you are not protected from getting in those theoretical 10% of funded but failed projects


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Updaaaaaaate?


----------



## Elrick

numberfive said:


> https://www.kickstarter.com/help/stats 38% overall success rate, with projects in technology field having 20%
> indiegogo doesn't disclose, but has lower numbers.



Don't know why you kids go into that. Have never gone into any of that stuff mainly due to if it never gets made you lose your dosh but if you wait and it presents itself on the retail outlet chain, then you have a chance of buying and owning it.

Have to learn to be patient here, otherwise the 'Shyster Game' of investment will only deliver YOU as the loser in this venture.


----------



## gunit2004

I totally forgot this mouse existed and that I paid for one until I saw the thread title randomly while scrolling lol.


----------



## Ukkooh

At this point I doubt we will see this thing. I wish bst would just come clean and tell us what happened.


----------



## 508859

Elrick said:


> Don't know why you kids go into that. Have never gone into any of that stuff mainly due to if it never gets made you lose your dosh but if you wait and it presents itself on the retail outlet chain, then you have a chance of buying and owning it.
> 
> Have to learn to be patient here, otherwise the 'Shyster Game' of investment will only deliver YOU as the loser in this venture.


do you know what crowdfunding is? if all the "investors" would be waiting for a retail product, how this particular product would be designed and manufactured? I donated my part to support that project, if I will not have a product at the end, I would be ok with that, because I accepted that risk when we started. 

it's ok to not participate in this, but your opinion is hardly relevant in this case.


----------



## empyr

@bst Hello?


----------



## aCz-

Just curiosity. For example if projects like kickstarter or indiegogo fail, who is getting money? I understand people who put money in is not getting it back. Don't really think that people who started should be getting any money, and kickstarter or indiegogo should not get anything at this point as well. Because there is ways they can scam or make things worse if they really like. So where the money goes?


----------



## muso

The money has gone to the companies that were sources to physically build the product, it's already been used that was the point.


----------



## Elrick

muso said:


> The money has gone to the companies that were sources to physically build the product, it's already been used that was the point.



Also everyone keeps ignoring our shared Covid-19 experience here, which has affected EVERYTHING including this new mouse design.

Just because you lot in the US of A decided that you, have no more Covid-19 doesn't mean it has disappeared from every other country on Planet Earth. Hence all the supply chains have been hampered severely, this is where the rest of us know what is actually happening with this Virus, whilst others prefer the 'head-in-the-sand' methodology to get by with this disaster.

Just don't expect any deadlines to be ever met, whilst this Virus is still about infecting everyone it comes into contact with.


----------



## NINOXSCAM

more than 3 Months since an ETA update.

The posts he made with promises of updates and ETA's has been deleted from his end ( multiple posts by him have been deleted) 

I think its safe to say he is in damage control and will be disappearing with the money very soon.


----------



## DAM20

Elrick said:


> Also everyone keeps ignoring our shared Covid-19 experience here, which has affected EVERYTHING including this new mouse design.
> 
> Just because you lot in the US of A decided that you, have no more Covid-19 doesn't mean it has disappeared from every other country on Planet Earth. Hence all the supply chains have been hampered severely, this is where the rest of us know what is actually happening with this Virus, whilst others prefer the 'head-in-the-sand' methodology to get by with this disaster.
> 
> Just don't expect any deadlines to be ever met, whilst this Virus is still about infecting everyone it comes into contact with.


I supported other 2 projects, both from china and both arrived in time even with the covid outbreak... So there's no excuses


----------



## nyshak

DAM20 said:


> I supported other 2 projects, both from china and both arrived in time even with the covid outbreak... So there's no excuses


Both projects for modular gaming mice I guess? Because if not, you can't compare them or drawn any conclusion as to which might be more, less or affected the same by Corona.

Also, it would be nice if people who really believe that they got scammed, to try and contact bst by pm, or see if they can somehow inquire about him and his project on indiegogo. Idk if there is a realistic way to get your funding back at this point, but coming here to post "uhhh this project sure is a scam" is annoying. I am watching this thread for actual news, and all I get for the last weeks are constant posts about no news.


----------



## lurkerguy

ded mouse


----------



## Avalar

big sad


----------



## k0fz

NINOXSCAM said:


> more than 3 Months since an ETA update.
> 
> The posts he made with promises of updates and ETA's has been deleted from his end ( multiple posts by him have been deleted)
> 
> I think its safe to say he is in damage control and will be disappearing with the money very soon.


in this thread? it's not possible to delete posts though?


----------



## empyr

If the project has failed, please just state that it has, instead of leaving people who backed you @*bst* in the dark. We'd also like to know why things have failed.

Please.


----------



## thedumninja

I agree with Empyr, 4 months for an update is a long time.


----------



## kr0w

From his early March update in Indiegogo (he has provided two updates since):

"If anyone is wondering if I'll abandon the project, I won't, there is no reason to do that. Theres enough funds to fulfil everyone's orders, just in case people are worried that the tooling costs spiralled out of control - they didn't, there were no extra charges. Actually in the past year I think I only spent about $500 of the funds (for PCB changes, and mouse feet tooling). So its all safe."

In this post, he's talking about the tooling from Chinese factory. In his timeline, he estimates about 180 days from Stage 2 to shipping so that's probably around early September (not considering logistic issues due to pandemic). 

Keep in mind the Ninox Aurora was a few years late too (2-3 years) in the ESReality community. But he delivered; pretty good mouse aside from the hard programmed 50ms denounce between RMB and LMB. So I'm not too worried if the question is whether or not I will get an end product in hand. The question is WHEN, and seeing how he initially estimated product delivery for DEC18, I'd call it a success if he can deliver DEC20-DEC21 based on past track records. But hopefully we can at least get an update for SEPT20 to hear about progress since manufacturing began per his most recent three posts. 🤞


----------



## Klopfer

btw ... dont forget the way chinese factorys work ... 
If B pays more then A , we produce now B ... it doesnt matter what we have in a contract with A ...
Thats the Trump way too


----------



## Elrick

Klopfer said:


> btw ... dont forget the way chinese factorys work ...
> If B pays more then A , we produce now B ... it doesnt matter what we have in a contract with A ...
> Thats the Trump way too



New/Old trend of achieving more money for your owners/investors, regardless of the consequences to any existing customers.

The Chinese have learned the Western Methodology of Capitalism, quite easily and Trump has set the rules for this new venture across this Planet.

Don't ever see it changing for the better here, maybe even get far worse when he starts enacting upon even harsher sanctions towards China, which they shall indeed retaliate.


----------



## realistic01

*realistic01*



Elrick said:


> Trump has set the rules for this new venture across this Planet.


Slightly off topic, but it was Reagan with his appointment of Alan Greenspan as fed chair that really set things off, with Greenspan's "greed is good" philosophy that basically led us to high risk leveraging and general reduction of oversight.

Regarding the mouse, as a guy who pledged in the higher tiers, I too am patiently awaiting further announcements but I understood from the get go that I am essentially donating money for an 'idea' that basically has no comparator in the market (and unlikely would ever be - why sell one mouse when you can sell the same mouse three times!).

But as people have mentioned, BST isn't a scam artist, and even if late, he delivered with his earlier projects. So just be patient, there is no point kicking up a fuss, I can understand BST's silence because if he ain't got stuff to say, he ain't got stuff to say, and it is unlikely to calm any of the hotter heads.


----------



## skupples

empyr said:


> If the project has failed, please just state that it has, instead of leaving people who backed you @*bst* in the dark. We'd also like to know why things have failed.
> 
> Please.


right?

clearly it was cocaine and hookers, thus the silent guilt. covidshmovid. 
*coughs*
*checks fever*

oh wait, already had it. I definitely still feel weird from time to time still too. n its not the ganja.


----------



## Elrick

realistic01 said:


> Slightly off topic, but it was Reagan with his appointment of Alan Greenspan as fed chair that really set things off, with Greenspan's "greed is good" philosophy that basically led us to high risk leveraging and general reduction of oversight.


Sorry, being from a confirmed Convict Settlement from the other side of this Planet, means we only go by the latest Fake Media streams being projected 24/7 on every channel in our undeveloped, 3RD-world country.



realistic01 said:


> But as people have mentioned, BST isn't a scam artist, and even if late, he delivered with his earlier projects. So just be patient, there is no point kicking up a fuss, I can understand BST's silence because if he ain't got stuff to say, he ain't got stuff to say, and it is unlikely to calm any of the hotter heads.


Have bought from him before and it took a very long time to receive it but of course I purchase loads of goods from everyone all over this forlorn planet, some items will take far longer than first promised to arrive upon my front door.

Or if my spoiled children decide to play a trick, by hiding any package without telling me. Then demanding fees and charges for reception of my own goods.


----------



## RyuKobs

Elrick said:


> Or if my spoiled children decide to play a trick, by hiding any package without telling me. Then demanding fees and charges for reception of my own goods.


Love the shenanigans these little ones get up to


----------



## rijst

@bst. How can we help?


----------



## SmashTV

Pretty sure being patient is the only form of help. 

Granted, I too agree he could do more communicating. He really needs to see how much it doesn't help. It gives the customers lack of faith, and a perception of one unwilling to follow through on the project. 

Now, he has shown up with the progress and such, and odds are people will get their mice, but the journey hasn't been kind to his backers.


----------



## furywins

Does BST check his messages? I need to get my address changed.


----------



## ryan92084

Recent posts cleaned
In case people weren't aware not following the Community Guidelines (including being rude/off topic/discussing moderation) may result in post deletion.


----------



## pez

furywins said:


> Does BST check his messages? I need to get my address changed.


You can do this from the drop page, actually. I had to do this as when this drop first started, I had moved...it's been that long .


----------



## djn

I have attended my local police and made a report. 
I would also suggest you do so.
This is the case I went off.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...project-creator-settles-ftc-charges-deception


----------



## Klopfer

nope , I won't do that


----------



## RyuKobs

@bst An update would be nice. Next month its gonna be 2 years since the project was funded.


----------



## Avalar

@bst Pleeeeeeeeeeease


----------



## a_ak57

From BST on IndieGoGo:



> Hi Everyone, I apologise for the lack of news, things have been very complicated and up in the air, I haven't known much myself.
> 
> Coronavirus has been quite devastating to this project, it's caused many small and some large problems, and on top of that, other problems have surfaced.
> 
> None of the problems are to do with the mouse itself, I've been using the final version of it for months and I think its amazing. The problems are with shipping and supplier delays.
> 
> - The shipping company decided they didn't want to ship the mice anymore, no explanation, just (pretty much) said "we don't want to ship your product anymore". I've been looking for alternatives, but only one shipping company has responded to me, which is not really as capable as the previous one, they send from one warehouse in China, rather than distributing to multiple warehouses around the globe (which lowers delivery costs and import fees). They also can't ship to all the countries (eg. Russia), so I have to get them sent to me and I'll ship them instead (this is also true of the Black Knight versions, since they need to come to the UK first for their chrome coating). I will most likely end up using that shipping company, but I'm still trying to get better options.
> 
> - The factory increased the price of the mouse by $5, for the first order, which may not sound like much, but its over $5000, and it was too much. I have managed to negotiate it down to $3, but its still tight. I have been trying to sell the mouse to retailers to get more funds, but none responded to me.
> 
> - A lot of suppliers have long delays and want to charge extra for parts, especially if you want them sooner rather than later. Earlier on in the year it was just impossible to get some components.
> 
> I think now at this point there isn't much more I can do, and so I'm just going to order the mice. From what I've calculated, there should be just enough funds. I've just been trying to lower costs, or raise more, because I don't like doing things without a buffer.
> 
> One thing I did do was I ordered some keyboards from the factory, to make a bit of profit on selling them. Whether that's a good idea or not, I don't know... but they have time to sell, and if they do, it'll mean more funds to make things safer - only about $2000 but it's better than nothing. I don't have to sell many to get the cost back so its not too high of a risk.
> 
> I'm sorry I don't have the best news, and for not going into detail over everything. I realise by not going in depth, things can be misinterpreted, but I'll just say that the things that have been happening take time to deal with, and it always goes so quickly. There are also 'small' things which stand in the way, like the Black Knight - the company who's doing the coating had their own problems, and its been very difficult to get the final price from them, and without that I couldn't do anything because its part of the budget. You might say, "well just use another company", but this is the only company that can do it. All the factories in China won't do it because its too low of a quantity, and nothing will convince them. I know I could make little updates about things like that, but I just don't know where to start, everything is connected, and its all happening simultaneously.
> 
> If it's of any interest, I have put the user manual for the mouse on my drive, if you'd like to see the features the mouse will ship with. Seeing as there was more time, I did add some functionality to the on board software. You can now choose from all the DPI steps that the 3360 offers (instead of 12), and change debounce times, enable left handed or right handed mode, and I worked even more on making the firmware coding more efficient (performance tweaks). I also added the function of horizontal scrolling to the right side buttons, so they can be bound to actions if you wanted to use them (and also bound to keyboard keys with a key mapper).
> 
> Click here to view the user manual
> 
> Once again I apologise for the lack of news recently. In the next update I should have some photos of the mice coming off the production line, but I have to be honest, I don't know exactly how long it's going to take.
> 
> Russell


----------



## RyuKobs

Good to know the project is alive. I knew the factory would jack up the price I am glad you were able to negotiate it down.

Was there no contract with the shipping company? Seems like ****ty thing to do unless they are going bankrupt.

Debounce times? I thought using optical switches eliminated this.


----------



## djn

funny, twice now. 
I post the details of his place of work and address ... he makes a post 1 day later with an update. 

nothing for months,

I report the "campaign" to the local police and 2 days later he makes an update. 

Sus.


----------



## a_ak57

Find someone who loves you like djn hates BST.


----------



## hisXLNC

djn said:


> funny, twice now.
> I post the details of his place of work and address ... he makes a post 1 day later with an update.
> 
> nothing for months,
> 
> I report the "campaign" to the local police and 2 days later he makes an update.
> 
> Sus.


yeah he never posted an update until you came along. what type of aluminum foil are you using btw?


----------



## Avalar

hisXLNC said:


> yeah he never posted an update until you came along. what type of aluminum foil are you using btw?


Copper, obviously.


----------



## Ukkooh

djn said:


> I have attended my local police and made a report.
> I would also suggest you do so.
> This is the case I went off.
> https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...project-creator-settles-ftc-charges-deception


Keep us updated on the police case! Have they given you any info yet?


----------



## djn

hisXLNC said:


> yeah he never posted an update until you came along. what type of aluminium foil are you using btw?


Thanks for asking, I am using the foil with a sprinkle of angle dust on top.



Ukkooh said:


> Keep us updated on the police case! Have they given you any info yet?


Sure thing, thanks for your interest.


----------



## ILoveHighDPI

djn said:


> funny, twice now.
> I post the details of his place of work and address ... he makes a post 1 day later with an update.
> 
> nothing for months,
> 
> I report the "campaign" to the local police and 2 days later he makes an update.
> 
> Sus.


Pretty sure both of these actions are a criminal offence.


----------



## djn

ILoveHighDPI said:


> Pretty sure both of these actions are a criminal offence.


And that's why you sir are not a lawyer or police officer.


----------



## hisXLNC

ILoveHighDPI said:


> Pretty sure both of these actions are a criminal offence.



he pretty much tried to harm the daily life of bst by suggesting people harass him and then suggested showing up to his place of work like some sort of mafia action to threaten him.

im also pretty sure that idiotic ninoxscam account is his


----------



## Avalar

Maybe he's just hoping it is a scam, so he can be "the guy" that called him out, get a bunch of attention for it, etc. Like people saying stuff on Twitter cuz they really want the likes/attention, ya knooow?

Like, I'm trying to understand what kind of person would get super heated and react in that way. I bought one of each color, and I'm not that PO'd. I really liked the idea of the product and I wanted to see it succeed, and also be one of the few people that'll have a whole set if it came out. Also had a lot less to worry about financially lol.

Getting off topic. Totally knew the project could fail, though. It's pretty ambitious. Say he only donated for one mouse, though, then why so mad? That was $65 + shipping years ago... Even $500 that long ago. Idk.


----------



## Klopfer

since I bought one ( 1 ) .... 
I bought 11 other mice ....
and I would still bought them if the Ninox mouse were shipped on the propably best day 

Edit: 
I mean, I can wait ... and I will still buy new Mice


----------



## djn

Avalar said:


> Maybe he's just hoping it is a scam, so he can be "the guy" that called him out, get a bunch of attention for it, etc. Like people saying stuff on Twitter cuz they really want the likes/attention, ya knooow?


Yes, I am hoping the 2 mice that I spent money on when I was 17 working 2 jobs is going to be a scam so I can claim online clout, you caught me please like and subscribe to my youtube page.



Klopfer said:


> since I bought one ( 1 ) ....
> I bought 11 other mice ....
> and I would still bought them if the Ninox mouse were shipped on the propably best day
> 
> Edit:
> I mean, I can wait ... and I will still buy new Mice


Klopfer I respect you, you have positivity that I only dream of, its seems you were brought up the right way and you should thank your parents for their good work.. and I am being sincere.


----------



## chort

djn said:


> Yes, I am hoping the 2 mice that I spent money on when I was 17 working 2 jobs is going to be a scam so I can claim online clout, you caught me please like and subscribe to my youtube page.


sounds like you problem tbh, next time don't bother with kickstarters if you are in that dire of a situation, espicially one about a gaming mouse.
sort out your priorities before going after other people.


----------



## djn

chort said:


> sounds like you problem tbh, next time don't bother with kickstarters if you are in that dire of a situation, espicially one about a gaming mouse.
> sort out your priorities before going after other people.


I have stacks of cash, im minted, rolling in benjamins .. I upsize at Burger King every time, no questions asked.
Money means nothing to me in relation to this kickstarter, its more the fact he is horrible at what he is doing, broken promises are different to scams... id rather be scammed then be lied to and taken for a ride.

Just because its a Kickstarter does not mean he has the option to fail... and your mentality that we need to be accepting of failure is your own failure in yourself. :Snorkle:


----------



## Avalar

djn said:


> I have stacks of cash, im minted, rolling in benjamins .. I upsize at Burger King every time, no questions asked.
> Money means nothing to me in relation to this kickstarter, its more the fact he is horrible at what he is doing, broken promises are different to scams... id rather be scammed then be lied to and taken for a ride.
> 
> Just because its a Kickstarter does not mean he has the option to fail... and your mentality that we need to be accepting of failure is your own failure in yourself. :Snorkle:


If you don't wanna be "taken for a ride", you could just conclude that the project is a failure and stop following the updates.

Also, plenty of things on Kickstarter have failed, soo...


----------



## ryan92084

Cleaned.. again. I get that several of you are frustrated (i'm in on this as well) but please try to find a way to express it that doesn't require constant post deletions or this will be locked.


----------



## eibbun

i mean i get that $60 isn't a lot to some. but at the time it was a lot for me and it was obviously a huge mistake to invest in a kickstarter but with the way it was hyped (and me at the time knowing barely anything about mice or technology or the failure rates of kickstarters) i assumed it was going to be a hit. now it doesn't matter bc it was *only* 60 bucks.. but thinking about it and the place i was in at the time still kinda hurts. and yes 60 bucks may be nothing now... but that's many people's 60 bucks.. still pretty messed up if it's a scam. still going to semi hope it isn't 😕


----------



## Klopfer

read the indiegogo page ...
....
Once again I apologise for the lack of news recently. In the next update I should have some photos of the mice coming off the production line, but I have to be honest, I don't know exactly how long it's going to take.
...

a lot of more text before that sentence ...
...factory increased the price of the mouse ...
shipping company ( from china ) also tries their best to get more money ... and so long ...
and I bet , if some other companys with more money , let produce there , they do , they will produce them first  ... 
thats a normal thing ...
not nice ... but normal for China ...


----------



## trhead

blame "Chyna". Typical and so convenient


----------



## e4stw00t

Klopfer said:


> read the indiegogo page ...
> ...factory increased the price of the mouse ...
> shipping company ( from china ) also tries their best to get more money ... and so long ...
> and I bet , if some other companys with more money , let produce there , they do , they will produce them first  ...
> thats a normal thing ...
> not nice ... but normal for China ...


All that's between bts and his business partners. 

It's true that minor contracts been renegotiated by these mega-factories on a frequent basis - or production gets delayed constantly. 
Whenever some new order that provides higher profits comes in, production resources get re-allocated to that order instead.

But in particular because he ran into the same issues with his previous project, bts should have foreseen that scenario and probably not ordered another small volume production in China in the first place.


----------



## djn

Who is deleting all the posts.. someone is covering the track of BTS.. he 100% has an inside man


----------



## 508859

djn said:


> Who is deleting all the posts.. someone is covering the track of BTS.. he 100% has an inside man


https://www.overclock.net/forum/28553862-post2784.html


----------



## Avalar

Don't get the thread deleted. ;-;


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

Im frustrated with how long it's taking but not enough to complain on a forum about it, got other things to worry about. going in I knew what kickstarters are like and how long they can take. i also knew his background and I still went in on it. I dont really mind. I just watch and wait to see what he updates with. I hope he's doing well and I hope he can get a lot of the stuff done. I know it's super fishy for someone to promise a product that has been taking a really long time, he's also doing this mostly by himself ( I think the indiegogo page said 3 others too) the M1K was also done by 2 people I believe and they hand make them (Im not sure) I think everyone is just looking for the next thing because we're mostly on lock down and the country is falling apart. we should breathe


----------



## djn

-1nf1n1ty- said:


> Im frustrated with how long it's taking but not enough to complain on a forum about it, got other things to worry about. going in I knew what kickstarters are like and how long they can take. i also knew his background and I still went in on it. I dont really mind. I just watch and wait to see what he updates with. I hope he's doing well and I hope he can get a lot of the stuff done. I know it's super fishy for someone to promise a product that has been taking a really long time, he's also doing this mostly by himself ( I think the indiegogo page said 3 others too) the M1K was also done by 2 people I believe and they hand make them (Im not sure) I think everyone is just looking for the next thing because we're mostly on lock down and the country is falling apart. we should breathe



Yet you made a post about it ... hmmm


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

djn said:


> Yet you made a post about it ... hmmm


Just to give people some thought and maybe some hope? Also, I'm not really complaining, just trying to be optimistic


----------



## djn

Overclock.net had not updated its look since forever and we're still waiting so an update or even a sniff. 
So the Pawnage was Crowdfunded, fulfilled and sent out and Astrum was already funded before they started.
The other stupid mouse with a Fan will be to their backers before we even have a sniff.
Both these products were made in china.. and Pawnage has had 3 batches since covid made and distributed..


----------



## Klopfer

Pwnage is an ODM mouse, that's a different


----------



## lurkerguy

I wonder if we will ever get our hands on this mouse, I would still use it for the shape and features


----------



## nyshak

The adjustable sensor alone would still be a USP for the mice, not to mention the different shapes in one box. The sensor isn't outdated yet by any means.


----------



## furywins

It would be nice if bst could provide an in-depth video showcasing the mouse/software considering he was teasing the fact that he has been using the production model.


----------



## djn

furywins said:


> It would be nice if bst could provide an in-depth video showcasing the mouse/software considering he was teasing the fact that he has been using the production model.


he cant show what has not happened.... he is stringing us all along.


----------



## furywins

djn said:


> he cant show what has not happened.... he is stringing us all along.


From my extensive experiences with group buys in the mech keyboard/clothing community the problems usually come down to manufacturing. So I'm confident he isn't lying about having the actual production model. It would be nice to see what the end product is supposed to look like since there have been some revisions.


----------



## ryan92084

I've said it before but small run projects where the creator doesn't just rollover a do what the manufacturer thinks is best get very low priority and really dragged out.


----------



## empyr

2 months since the last update though.


----------



## mksteez

This is sad


----------



## gunit2004

It is sad but not as sad as for those who ordered like 6 copies of the damn thing lol. That's gotta hurt.

Anyway, this thing is about to be obsoleted by Roccat's upcoming release which looks kinda similar.


----------



## t3ram

gunit2004 said:


> It is sad but not as sad as for those who ordered like 6 copies of the damn thing lol. That's gotta hurt.
> 
> Anyway, this thing is about to be obsoleted by Roccat's upcoming release which looks kinda similar.


The Astrum will not be obsolet, even if the Roccat has a near identical shape because Astrum would be the only light mouse with swappable sides and adjustable sensor position but who knows if or when it will be released


----------



## muso

Over 3 years is pretty insane.


----------



## empyr

gunit2004 said:


> It is sad but not as sad as for those who ordered like 6 copies of the damn thing lol. That's gotta hurt.
> 
> Anyway, this thing is about to be obsoleted by Roccat's upcoming release which looks kinda similar.


Tell me about it, I ordered 9 copies of it. Feels so stupid at this point to have any faith in this project will be finished. Soon 3 months since the last update of it "being ordered" and no word at all.


----------



## Elrick

muso said:


> Over 3 years is pretty insane.


Try on waiting for *Ellipse's F77 keyboard*. 🤣😂😭

Way longer than your measly 3 year count BUT it's still so worth the wait 💜 .


----------



## gipetto

Is anyone else annoyed that the indiegogo comments mysteriously changed from handles to full names? I didn't ask to be doxxed.


----------



## djn

gipetto said:


> Is anyone else annoyed that the indiegogo comments mysteriously changed from handles to full names? I didn't ask to be doxxed.


Its been like that for some time makes it more difficult to criticise the project because he would rub his nuggets on your mouse that will never arrive.


----------



## RyuKobs

I must confess I am also getting a bit annoyed now with this tbh. More this delays, more likely bst's costs are going to rise even more(yeee covid-19)


----------



## cr4zyprod1gy

can i still get my money back?


----------



## djn

cr4zyprod1gy said:


> can i still get my money back?


People have asked and he has refused.
I now think the mice will arrive but it will be the end of next year and will be less than promised..


----------



## empyr

Honestly, I wish I could give my money back at this point. I wanted to support bst in his project because the idea and mice looked really awesome, but at this point, unless they're premimum quality and everything is flawless, they're outdated, even if you can change the shape and mouse sensor position, atleast for my personal preference.

In the end, the main issue is really that bst has stopped talking about the project at all, no questions answered, which is why people are angry. Saying "Hey, I don't know, I've tried to contact them, but they didn't update me yet" is better than leaving people hanging for 2 months (soon 3?) after saying: "I ordered them", yet, since then we've not heard anything about it.

Are you telling me, that since he apparently ordered all of these things, he has gotten no word from the factory? I sort of don't believe it. Even if it was bad news, it's better to keep people updated at this point, a monthly update from here on out would be great, of course that won't happen, but one could dream.


----------



## fizzbin

Can we crowdfund a lawsuit against bst?


----------



## RyuKobs

empyr said:


> Honestly, I wish I could give my money back at this point. I wanted to support bst in his project because the idea and mice looked really awesome, but at this point, unless they're premimum quality and everything is flawless, they're outdated, even if you can change the shape and mouse sensor position, atleast for my personal preference.
> 
> In the end, the main issue is really that bst has stopped talking about the project at all, no questions answered, which is why people are angry. Saying "Hey, I don't know, I've tried to contact them, but they didn't update me yet" is better than leaving people hanging for 2 months (soon 3?) after saying: "I ordered them", yet, since then we've not heard anything about it.
> 
> Are you telling me, that since he apparently ordered all of these things, he has gotten no word from the factory? I sort of don't believe it. Even if it was bad news, it's better to keep people updated at this point, a monthly update from here on out would be great, of course that won't happen, but one could dream.


I agree with you man. bst could quell most of the hate by updating regularly, Even something as factory is taking a long time sorry guys, would have put him in more positive light.


----------



## djn

I remember the good old days when you all vilified me and called me insane for bring up anything bad about the lack of communication, now you're all seeing what I saw almost a year ago. 
If we all kicked up a stink last year when he went quiet for months on end ( like now) he would have been pressured into updating. 
Now he knows the lackies will cover and defend him, where are they now tho ? radio silence from his white knights.


----------



## a_ak57

Nobody ever vilified you for being annoyed by bst's lack of communication. That's been a thing people have complained about since the Aurora, so you're literally years late. 

We instead laughed about stuff like you talking about calling the police in another country and claiming that they then reached out to his local police and forced him to write an update.


----------



## djn

a_ak57 said:


> Nobody ever vilified you for being annoyed by bst's lack of communication. That's been a thing people have complained about since the Aurora, so you're literally years late.
> 
> We instead laughed about stuff like you talking about calling the police in another country and claiming that they then reached out to his local police and forced him to write an update.


Laughed? at me? noooooooooooooooooo


----------



## Elrick

empyr said:


> In the end, the main issue is really that bst has stopped talking about the project at all, no questions answered, which is why people are angry. Saying "Hey, I don't know, I've tried to contact them, but they didn't update me yet" is better than leaving people hanging for 2 months (soon 3?) after saying: "I ordered them", yet, since then we've not heard anything about it.


Totally understandable.

That is why I have STOPPED spending money on Group Buys, unless it's with larger Companies that have operated for years on this style of business model and know (actual evidence) how to deliver the final product.



empyr said:


> Are you telling me, that since he apparently ordered all of these things, he has gotten no word from the factory? I sort of don't believe it. Even if it was bad news, it's better to keep people updated at this point, a monthly update from here on out would be great, of course that won't happen, but one could dream.


Due to never spending a single cent on this venture, I can dribble after the fact but do be aware that there will be other Group Buys run on here at OCN and/or Geekhack, that is where any cruel shyster can make lots of money fast and deliver nothing but empty promises and fake info.

Don't forget I also got personally scammed some times over the years (through some fake Group Buys on Geekhack) but that has stopped me from making the very same ongoing mistakes over and over again. Just refuse to hand over money for any DIY Group Buys (here on OCN, Geekhack or DT) because they will eventually fail quite easily, either deviously planned or by innocent mistakes.

Have no idea what's happening here with this ongoing Group Buy but everyone has to know, this is the normal part of engaging into these style of ventures where a delivered product might only be in the minds of those that want to believe.

You have to try and stop being another 'Fox Mulder' and ludicrously believe in something with little proof of existence  .


----------



## djn

Also, look at it this way, he was planning on releasing more mice in the future. 
I can almost promise you 90% of the backers from this mouse will not put another cent to his terrible campaigns. 
All he had to do was explain what was happening, have some social presence and give a basic update every month.


He has destroyed all future campaigns for himself and that's deserved.


----------



## SmashTV

Yep yep. Was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but he just doesn't learn. Funny this issue was the reason I held off on backing the project. Things seemed to be different but.... how little has actually changed.


----------



## AuraDesruu

It's kinda insane how this project was announced 3 years ago.


----------



## 508859

what is interesting, is that at the beginning people were ok to risk betting their money on something that might not happen, but when they lost, they want their money back, as if it was a no-risk investment
70$ to the drain were sent 3 years ago, not when bst stopped updating


----------



## empyr

numberfive said:


> what is interesting, is that at the beginning people were ok to risk betting their money on something that might not happen, but when they lost, they want their money back, as if it was a no-risk investment
> 70$ to the drain were sent 3 years ago, not when bst stopped updating


I mean, obviously you take a risk when you back something like this, don't get me wrong. The issue is that, even if the project has failed completely, he could be man enough to tell people that, instead of just hiding and hoping people will forget about it and he won't have to admit to everyone that things didn't go his way.


----------



## djn

numberfive said:


> what is interesting, is that at the beginning people were ok to risk betting their money on something that might not happen, but when they lost, they want their money back, as if it was a no-risk investment
> 70$ to the drain were sent 3 years ago, not when bst stopped updating


Great post...🥴. .. so you're saying if any funded campaign has a chance to fail and if it does we must just mark it off as a "loss" and move on because we were silly enough to invest? 
AND when/if it does fail we have no right to be pissed and demand satisfaction? 
You're a plum, anything in life we do has a possibility of not panning out or failing, every day and thing is a risk you just minimise it and hope for the best. 
example, I bought a French car, Peugeot, knowing that all French cars are useless and expensive to fix, that was a stupid decision by me and a risk but it been great for the last 5 years. Luck ? or Stupid Luck?
If I listened to every website and person who says don't buy French I would not have taken the risk and enjoyed the last 5 years thrashing my Pug. 

He also stated he still has a large number of funds sitting in his account " waiting", so there is money somewhere, if it all was sent to CHINA then he would not have an account of money to post?


----------



## fizzbin

Terms of Use | Indiegogo 

It looks like he raised $100k and has absolutely nothing to show for it. Are there any examples of successful lawsuits against people in these types of campaigns? Should you go to jail if you stole $100k?


----------



## muso

I think you would have to prove he intentionally intended to defraud people which i mean there some evidence showing that's *not* the case.


----------



## realistic01

fizzbin said:


> Terms of Use | Indiegogo
> 
> It looks like he raised $100k and has absolutely nothing to show for it. Are there any examples of successful lawsuits against people in these types of campaigns? Should you go to jail if you stole $100k?


You guys are just absurd
While I'm disappointed that I havent received the mouse (yet), this is the nature of these sort of crowdfunding projects
You haven't bought a product, you've bought the idea of the product
Regardless, indiegogo/kickstarter will have all sorts of terms and conditions that you clicked through to ensure that they and BST have no liability

I hold no ill will to BST, I pledged an amount that was disposable to me, and I knew full well that there is a chance that I never receive anything

Besides, consider whats happening in the world at the moment, a $100k order for a chinese factory is nothing, its not like BST is Apple or some large company with massive leverage
Just be chill and continue to be patient, otherwise just try and forget about it and move on


----------



## ewiggle

Yo, I'm not sure what's going on in this thread, but I'd like to know from @bst if we can still change our address for this. Can we still just go into indiegogo and change our address there to have it shipped to our new address? Or is there a different process now.

And yes, I'm still on board and have no complaints. I know new projects can have issues like this, so it's not shocking or anything. Just hoping BST keep his head up through this and not give up on the whole thing due to all the salt and obstacles.


----------



## hisXLNC

This is just sad at this point


----------



## ncck

Any reason why he hasn't given any small updates? Is the project no longer alive or is it still a WIP?

Too many prior threads for me to browse through. Just curious on the status/latest status


----------



## t3ram

ncck said:


> Any reason why he hasn't given any small updates? Is the project no longer alive or is it still a WIP?


"Hi Everyone, I apologise for the lack of news, things have been very complicated and up in the air, I haven't known much myself. " 
"Once again I apologise for the lack of news recently. In the next update I should have some photos of the mice coming off the production line, but I have to be honest, I don't know exactly how long it's going to take. "

So no real news worth updating i guess but he should really tell us if this campaign failed


----------



## Rhys7

Just needs to put us out of our misery and reply


----------



## Avalar

@bst let's get an updaaaaaaaaate


----------



## DAM20

update?


----------



## joelsund

Seems pretty easy to pull an indiegogo scam. make a product concept, get money then disappear off the internet.


----------



## empyr

bst hasn't logged in on his account in +4 months, so odds are he's never going to give an update here again, which is obviously fair enough when people are unhappy with his ways. Unless the entire thing was a scam and the plan is to never login in here again, I sort of doubt that atleast. What I'm most worried/curious about at this point, incase something does get completed that people who's ordered a bunch of things to support the project, will get hit with a bunch of VAT/Import fees if products suddenly show up. Obviously that's unlikely to ever happen it seems, but it does worry me since the company who he had lined up seemed like that wasn't gonna be the case for the most part, but now, I don't know.


----------



## muso

I think the website he had is also gone. Crazy how there's gonna be no legal repercussions for this but i guess that's what happens. I feel sorry for the people who bought more than 1. Can Indiegogo do anything?


----------



## resis

BST delivered so far, so I don't think it's a scam. I suspect he burnt out on the project. I guess development was difficult to begin with and then the economic reset happened and made everything worse. If the only way to deliver would be at a loss, then I'd probably went silent, too.

I'm sure he will respond when it's time. Problem is, that this is not the first time it happens, including the silence period. People still showed trust, but I don't think it can continue like this with future projects, should there be any.


----------



## 508859

muso said:


> I think the website he had is also gone. Crazy how there's gonna be no legal repercussions for this but i guess that's what happens. I feel sorry for the people who bought more than 1. Can Indiegogo do anything?


why would there be any legal repercussions? you invested in a failed project, you took a risk 2 years ago, you lost, blame yourself.


----------



## empyr

muso said:


> I think the website he had is also gone. Crazy how there's gonna be no legal repercussions for this but i guess that's what happens. I feel sorry for the people who bought more than 1. Can Indiegogo do anything?


I don't think Indiegogo can do anything, no. It's just a shame that bst has let it run this far to go dead silent. Especially since the mouse back then had actual real promise/potential.



resis said:


> BST delivered so far, so I don't think it's a scam. I suspect he burnt out on the project. I guess development was difficult to begin with and then the economic reset happened and made everything worse. If the only way to deliver would be at a loss, then I'd probably went silent, too.
> 
> I'm sure he will respond when it's time. Problem is, that this is not the first time it happens, including the silence period. People still showed trust, but I don't think it can continue like this with future projects, should there be any.


One way or another, he should have learnt from his previous mistakes, which is sort of the issue I have with all of this. A lot of people suspected that this was going to turn out this way all the way back it started, due to the Aurora and truth be told, they were right. It wasn't worth investing/backing in, for the most part it would have been better to just wait for a finished product, if it would ever see the light of day, and by the looks of it, it won't either.


----------



## RyuKobs

I am not surprised the mouse is delayed...again, this covid-19 **** is wrecking manufacturing schedules. My problem is @bst is not letting us know of the status. A simple, hey guys I am fine, would be better than whatever the heck he is doing now.

Going forward I will not be supporting any crowd funded campaigns started by bst. I understand delays but lack of communication like this is a very big no no for me.


----------



## AuraDesruu

Maybe BST is going to pull a no man sky. Go radio silent for a couple of months or a year and then come out with an update about how he upgraded the entire project to the pmw 3370(wireless) while keeping it modular


----------



## RyuKobs

AuraDesruu said:


> Maybe BST is going to pull a no man sky. Go radio silent for a couple of months or a year and then come out with an update about how he upgraded the entire project to the pmw 3370(wireless) while keeping it modular


Highly doubtful he will make major changes like that. The cost of manufacturing the mouse increased by $5 per his last update.

Atleast nms actually got released. Albeit in an incomplete state but it did get released.


----------



## gunit2004

Others will release mice with similar features and updated internals to today's standards before this mouse ever (if it does ever) come out.


----------



## djn

Hahahahha


----------



## empyr

Oh dear.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

It's weird that I see him on discord quite often. I sent him a message asking if he could give an update, not being rude about it or anything, no response (obviously). I hope the project isn't dead. It definitely feels like it is. I doubt that he's working every minute of everyday to take away from being able to update. Well good thing I just bought 1 instead of others that bought 10 or something.


----------



## empyr

-1nf1n1ty- said:


> It's weird that I see him on discord quite often. I sent him a message asking if he could give an update, not being rude about it or anything, no response (obviously). I hope the project isn't dead. It definitely feels like it is. I doubt that he's working every minute of everyday to take away from being able to update. Well good thing I just bought 1 instead of others that bought 10 or something.


While I understand that he probably gets tired of hearing questions about the project/asking for updates etc. It doesn't take a lot to inform people what happened instead of just being silent. Silence is the killer in this case and if it's as you say, then I can only assume that the project is completely dead if he's not even interested in giving you a short reply.

One way or another, he should have known if the project begins to have issues, that people will ask questions and that's just the nature of it. Can't run away from those.


----------



## Nilizum

RyuKobs said:


> I am not surprised the mouse is delayed...again, this covid-19 **** is wrecking manufacturing schedules. My problem is @bst is not letting us know of the status. A simple, hey guys I am fine, would be better than whatever the heck he is doing now.
> 
> Going forward I will not be supporting any crowd funded campaigns started by bst. I understand delays but lack of communication like this is a very big no no for me.


Lack of communication? Okay, give me a narrowed time frame when the covid 19 vaccine will be released. You won't. Where are the factories bst contracted? In China. Piece things together. He is not obligated to tell you "he is fine", when the nature of the project is not fine.


----------



## a_ak57

I'm guessing the project is dead and he's probably too afraid of the backlash if he were to confirm it and/or ask for more money. But in an alternate universe where he was regularly communicating, he probably could have just opened up more preorders and people would gripe but be ok with it. But that's definitely a no-go at this point.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

a_ak57 said:


> I'm guessing the project is dead and he's probably too afraid of the backlash if he were to confirm it and/or ask for more money. But in an alternate universe where he was regularly communicating, he probably could have just opened up more preorders and people would gripe but be ok with it. But that's definitely a no-go at this point.


No one really knows, its all speculation. I hope it isn't but you never know. With covid 19 and all that its been a pain everywhere. But you know even small updates here and there would ease a lot of hostility here.


----------



## djn

Nilizum said:


> Lack of communication? Okay, give me a narrowed time frame when the covid 19 vaccine will be released. You won't. Where are the factories bst contracted? In China. Piece things together. He is not obligated to tell you "he is fine", when the nature of the project is not fine.


You're obviously joking? 
Comparing a covid vaccine and a mouse that's been designed and fabricated before covid was a thing?
It's been 3 years since he conjured the idea and designed it.. 
It's been 8 + months from when he said the mouse was completed and test/trail units would be sent to testers for product testing? 
Its been just about the same amount of time since contact about an ETA or anything fruitful.

Chinas factories have been up and running for months and months, multiple other mice have been thought up and manufactured since covid (don't forget the mouse was made and in his hand at the start of the year, so there is no going back from that)

Now comparing this to a covid vaccine has me in hysterics, stop trying to defend this calamity of a project and grab your pitchfork and join us, please.


----------



## empyr

One way or another, this mouse was "supposed" to be "finished" in end of 2018, obviously that was unlikely from the start, but 2 years has almost passed and he hasn't updated for months now. How can anybody defend the lack of updates at this point? China is up and running interms of factories, I don't really buy that one personally, but each to their own in that regard.

I'm just personally starting to speculate if he did actually order these things at all. Has anybody ever seen any proof of it, besides his word? I mean, his word doesn't exactly mean much anymore.


----------



## muso

It would be a pretty elaborate plot, he had updates about small things like green color models not being avaliable. Not something someone would do if this was all a scam. Although doing an indiegogo campaign scam is probably very low risk since you can't be prosecuted for not delivering.


----------



## hisXLNC

this is just sad at this point


----------



## Ukkooh

muso said:


> It would be a pretty elaborate plot, he had updates about small things like green color models not being avaliable. Not something someone would do if this was all a scam. Although doing an indiegogo campaign scam is probably very low risk since you can't be prosecuted for not delivering.


It is not a scam. I contacted the factory once and at least at that point they worked on the mouse.


----------



## RyuKobs

Ukkooh said:


> It is not a scam. I contacted the factory once and at least at that point they worked on the mouse.


Can you try to contact them again please?


----------



## zergrush

This mouse seemed too good to be true since day one and the Ninox website sucks. I'm glad I didn't put any of my money into it.


----------



## Elrick

djn said:


> Chinas factories have been up and running for months and months, multiple other mice have been thought up and manufactured since covid (don't forget the mouse was made and in his hand at the start of the year, so there is no going back from that)


Entirely correct. Not disputing that at all.



djn said:


> Now comparing this to a covid vaccine has me in hysterics, stop trying to defend this calamity of a project and grab your pitchfork and join us, please.


For myself as I have never laid down any moolah for this project at all, certainly convenient in not losing anything here. Still would not join the 'Biden Train' just yet, first see what happens next year as 2020 winds down and 2021 starts.

Wait till March or April to see the final result (a response) here before charging with your 'pitchforks and flames' to impale and burn down BST and his whole project. After all, destroying his work now would only cause harm long term for those whom have already paid for this.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

Elrick said:


> Wait till March or April to see the final result (a response) here before charging with your 'pitchforks and flames' to impale and burn down BST and his whole project. After all, destroying his work now would only cause harm long term for those whom have already paid for this.


It is concerning though. I will give him the benefit of the doubt because that's about all I can do. My first real crowdfunding experience and I realize not all of them are like this but it definitely puts me off from other.


----------



## originchill

Anyone noticed how similar the new Roccat Burst Pro looks like this Astrum?


----------



## Elrick

originchill said:


> Anyone noticed how similar the new Roccat Burst Pro looks like this Astrum?


That's what happens when a builder sits on his design, nearly for 4 years+ and do you really think that all his COMPETITORS will do the same?

No way. They have seen his design and straight away they can produce his shape almost immediately, with their reliable factories in China (which BST will never have access to) and present a similar design/shape quite quickly into the retail supply chain.

Welcome to BIG business here, where they continually slaughter the little guys, every time. In fact they might even pay his manufacturer to drop his design and force him to give up ever releasing his official mouse, onto us.

I work for a large Corporation and we routinely cripple other competitors, that aren't in our league in size or money. The smaller operations eventually file for bankruptcy whilst we remain unaffected in our operations and distribution.

Welcome to BUSINESS in 2020 and beyond. It will be even more cut throat as various Governments/Businesses lose control and we pick up the pieces of failed companies (Loot) and other areas, very quickly.


----------



## a_ak57

originchill said:


> Anyone noticed how similar the new Roccat Burst Pro looks like this Astrum?


Well, that's because the Burst is modeled after the WMO, and the base Astrum shape is a slightly modified WMO.


----------



## originchill

a_ak57 said:


> Well, that's because the Burst is modeled after the WMO, and the base Astrum shape is a slightly modified WMO.


I didn't know that the Burst was modeled after the wmo. Interesting. Did they say that?


----------



## mxnp

originchill said:


> I didn't know that the Burst was modeled after the wmo. Interesting. Did they say that?


I haven't seen anything official about it actually being modeled after the WMO. However, you could say it's certainly inspired by the WMO from the eye test—straight sides, narrower front/lack of front flare, sides curving towards a rear flare out that's more to the back WMO-style as opposed to more centred like the IO. The big difference is that the Burst seems to have the hump towards the back, Zowie S series like. Wonder how many more years till we see another centred-hump mouse again.

I find it hilarious how the Burst has that same black colour scheme and square DPI button like the Astrum does.


----------



## Vampiredw

originchill said:


> Anyone noticed how similar the new Roccat Burst Pro looks like this Astrum?


Yess, just told this on the campaign page on Indiegogo....


----------



## lainx

Should've gone with just customizable shapes and not worry about the cable nor switchable sensor positioning. The mouse would've been successful just with that and it would've allowed for making iterations and newer models.
The dream is dead. Such a shame!
Back to bide my time 'til a sub 36.0mm height mouse with a proper sensor will be released.


----------



## DAM20

Tbh if he just need like 10$ more from us to complete this mouse, count me in, but he need to confirm that the project is not dead.


----------



## djn

DAM20 said:


> Tbh if he just need like 10$ more from us to complete this mouse, count me in, but he need to confirm that the project is not dead.


He will not get another cent, I hope it comes out he sold the design to Roccat or Xtfy.


----------



## lainx

DAM20 said:


> Tbh if he just need like 10$ more from us to complete this mouse, count me in, but he need to confirm that the project is not dead.


Hell, i'd pay triple the amount of that initial costs. It's the only design on the market that's sub 38mm height. Something that hasn't been released since 2004-2006.
At least not with a proper sensor.
I cherish the day when one of the manufacturers get their head out of their .. and finally release one.
Why am i upset by this, as seemingly everyone is okayy with 38-50mm bump? This arcs the hand in a way that i feel like it causes more injuries. At least for me since i have baby hands, which basically forces me to use fingertip grip (though it some hybrid now with claw). I also run 1-3-1 because why would i want to move one of the most important finger, just to use the scroll wheel for a second. I don't understand why it isn't widely adopted but oh well. To each their own. God damn 150mm length and 50mm height go choke on it.
The G9x and razer pro/diamondbacks just please come back.


----------



## iBerggman

lainx said:


> It's the only design on the market that's *sub 38mm* height.


I thought the height was supposed to be 39.5mm? Which would make it pretty much the same as every other mouse out there since 38-40mm seems to be the standard height, for recent mice anyway.


----------



## a_ak57

It is 39.5mm, maybe he's planning to use it without the shell?

The FK2 and Model O- are 36mm tall and FK1/Model O are 37mm, in any case. I'd imagine there are other mice that height as well.


----------



## empyr

I wouldn't blame anybody for thinking it looks quite a bit similiar in design. No where near an exact "copy", I don't think he has sold off the tooling to Roccat, otherwise it would be way closer in design/shape, etc.

Astrum: https://ninox.co/files/indiegogo/astrum/photos/colours/ninox-astrum-white.jpg

Burst Pro: https://media.roccat.org/img/products/Burst-Pro/templates/gallery03-04-full-2x-v2-2.jpg


----------



## hisXLNC

empyr said:


> I wouldn't blame anybody for thinking it looks quite a bit similiar in design. No where near an exact "copy", I don't think he has sold off the tooling to Roccat, otherwise it would be way closer in design/shape, etc.
> 
> Astrum: https://ninox.co/files/indiegogo/astrum/photos/colours/ninox-astrum-white.jpg
> 
> Burst Pro: https://media.roccat.org/img/products/Burst-Pro/templates/gallery03-04-full-2x-v2-2.jpg



the difference is the burst pro actually exists


----------



## empyr

hisXLNC said:


> the difference is the burst pro actually exists


Got a decent chuckle out of that one, thank you 😅


----------



## rat-

... ?


----------



## didsomeresearch

coal for xmas 3rd year in a row?


----------



## empyr

Looks like it!


----------



## rat-

guess so.


----------



## originchill

I wish we at least could just get a word. Is the project over or do we still wait.


----------



## furywins

man i just want some closure.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

furywins said:


> man i just want some closure.


I think we all do. I wonder if there's ever been Kickstarters with this much trouble in providing updates like this?


----------



## RyuKobs

Cant wait to get this to play Half Life 3 !


----------



## MaTpr0F

Half life 3 will come sooner than this.


----------



## djn

Did you just steal the bloke above your posts comment? 
have some decency .


----------



## MaTpr0F

djn said:


> Did you just steal the bloke above your posts comment?
> have some decency .


Sorry, I was replying to his comment, but I was on my phone and it did not quote his post.


----------



## RyuKobs

Didnt corona hit UK hard too, do we know if bst is alive and well?


----------



## Avalar

RyuKobs said:


> Didnt corona hit UK hard too, do we know if bst is alive and well?


Thought about that, too, but how would we ever find out?


----------



## untouchable247

RyuKobs said:


> Didnt corona hit UK hard too, do we know if bst is alive and well?


It's not like he was very consistent with updates before...


----------



## RyuKobs

I just realized bst has broken some terms of use on indiegogo. Wonder if indiegogo will take any action.

Also a question for you guys who ordered the color versions, will you be willing to change them to black or white versions. I think bst bit off more than he could chew by offering all those colors and the factory is not willing or want more $$ for the color versions than whatever bst has left of the campaign funds.


----------



## Avalar

@bst

Doin that thing where I bump the thread again.

Big sad. ;-;


----------



## cbfs360

[EDITED]


----------



## Avalar

[Deleted]


----------



## RyuKobs

Avalar said:


> I messaged Russell and Jack on LinkedIn just now. Maybe we'll hear back.


Hopefully they will answer.


----------



## Avalar

RyuKobs said:


> Hopefully they will answer.


Well I actually got a reply! Dude said he'd rather his name not be shared, so I deleted my previous message.

He said the last he had contact with bst was 2018, but still thinks he'll pull through with the project. Cool to hear someone else still hopeful for the project.


----------



## RyuKobs

Avalar said:


> Well I actually got a reply! Dude said he'd rather his name not be shared, so I deleted my previous message.
> 
> He said the last he had contact with bst was 2018, but still thinks he'll pull through with the project. Cool to hear someone else still hopeful for the project.


Feels like last we heard from bst was from 2018 too xD 
Ngl my trust in bst has almost gone down to zero. Here is hoping he will update us in Jan 2021.


----------



## djn

He has removed all his information from who.is on the website.. all the info about his other business.. 
but i have it all in the police file still ./
*Grandstand Footwear Ltd*
Website
Directions
Call
Footwear wholesaler in Boreham, Englan

Address: Mount, Generals Ln, Maskall, Chelmsford CM3 3HW, United Kingdo
Phone: +44 1245 465050

Can someone call and ask whats happened ?


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

From @bst : ".... I have only just finished a plan of action this year for the mouse, been through quite a few attempts to get it finished, pretty much all a time consuming dead end unfortunately. I don't think people are going to like my new plan, but it's the only way I can think of, I just have to find a good way to word it now, and recap why we're at that point. I'm a little bit burned out over the whole thing, since I didn't expect it to go on for so long. The sad thing is the mouse has been finished for a long time, I just can't get it out to people."

He also told me updates are coming soon (give him time).

Incase someone asks, no I didn't call him. I messaged him asking if he was okay cause it is kind of worrisome with covid 19 and a new strain hitting UK. Be a human and put away pitch forks.


----------



## djn

-1nf1n1ty- said:


> From @bst : ".... I have only just finished a plan of action this year for the mouse, been through quite a few attempts to get it finished, pretty much all a time consuming dead end unfortunately. I don't think people are going to like my new plan, but it's the only way I can think of, I just have to find a good way to word it now, and recap why we're at that point. I'm a little bit burned out over the whole thing, since I didn't expect it to go on for so long. The sad thing is the mouse has been finished for a long time, I just can't get it out to people."
> 
> He also told me updates are coming soon (give him time).
> 
> Incase someone asks, no I didn't call him. I messaged him asking if he was okay cause it is kind of worrisome with covid 19 and a new strain hitting UK. Be a human and put away pitch forks.


Lies.
anything he says is a lie.


----------



## Alex06

The only acceptable option is a completely finished (including software) and well-assembled mouse on my desk, other options (including a new plan and other explanations) are a waste of time. Sorry for my English


----------



## Omnax

In my opinion news will be that he will end up delivering single colour only at some point in the future.


----------



## Avalar

-1nf1n1ty- said:


> From @bst : ".... I have only just finished a plan of action this year for the mouse, been through quite a few attempts to get it finished, pretty much all a time consuming dead end unfortunately. I don't think people are going to like my new plan, but it's the only way I can think of, I just have to find a good way to word it now, and recap why we're at that point. I'm a little bit burned out over the whole thing, since I didn't expect it to go on for so long. The sad thing is the mouse has been finished for a long time, I just can't get it out to people."
> 
> He also told me updates are coming soon (give him time).
> 
> Incase someone asks, no I didn't call him. I messaged him asking if he was okay cause it is kind of worrisome with covid 19 and a new strain hitting UK. Be a human and put away pitch forks.


That's really great to hear! I'm glad he's okay. I feel so bad for him with everything that's happened. Good luck all around!



Omnax said:


> In my opinion news will be that he will end up delivering single colour only at some point in the future.


I'll take that over no mouse at all. I wonder if he'll need the money spent on all other colors to make that happen, though. If not, I would be stoked to see that 400ish dollars back at times like these... 😅 Yeah, I did _actually _order the entire color set, minus one, cuz referral system.


----------



## RyuKobs

I'll wait for the update and decide what I should do, heck who knows maybe this will come out before half life 3 xD


----------



## a_ak57

Single color but happening as planned otherwise would be great news at this point, tbh.

I think given him saying people will hate his plan and that the mouse has been finished for a while, I suspect the company he was working with has told him they're not going to manufacture it (or refund) and he's going to ask for more crowdfunding to get it created elsewhere.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

I wonder how the shoe business is going...


----------



## SmashTV

a_ak57 said:


> Single color but happening as planned otherwise would be great news at this point, tbh.
> 
> I think given him saying people will hate his plan and that the mouse has been finished for a while, I suspect the company he was working with has told him they're not going to manufacture it (or refund) and he's going to ask for more crowdfunding to get it created elsewhere.


Him asking for even more money just amplifies the negative trust factor. I wouldn't if I was a backer. 

Get your refundos at this point, children.


----------



## empyr

SmashTV said:


> Him asking for even more money just amplifies the negative trust factor. I wouldn't if I was a backer.
> 
> Get your refundos at this point, children.


He can't refund anything, he's said that multiple times, so we're ****ed in that regard. I won't personally pay more than I already have (I backed for 9, feel free to flame me).


----------



## alkestos

Personally I'm just happy to see he is alive and well. If he provides the mouse, great. I am human enough to understand that things just don't always go as planned. I used money I was ready to lose to back this mouse. I understood it was not a preorder or a purchase. I backed a product. Some people here looking for his addresses and planning to go after his other businesses just need to grow the fu69 up.


----------



## djn

alkestos said:


> Personally I'm just happy to see he is alive and well. If he provides the mouse, great. I am human enough to understand that things just don't always go as planned. I used money I was ready to lose to back this mouse. I understood it was not a preorder or a purchase. I backed a product. Some people here looking for his addresses and planning to go after his other businesses just need to grow the fu69 up.


Mate, your common sense is not welcomed here... pitchfork or get out..


----------



## Freqout

Six months without so much as a word from @bst. Nothing - complete radio silence. Then again, it looks like it's been that long since he's logged in here as well.

What a wonderful way to treat people who have given you their money on the basis of trust.


----------



## Elrick

djn said:


> Lies.
> anything he says is a lie.


Hey, you've got Biden in charge now, it shall ALL be 'Truth and Decency' being implemented during 2021 

If you refuse to believe that, then you need to be reeducated quickly.....


----------



## djn

Elrick said:


> Hey, you've got Biden in charge now, it shall ALL be 'Truth and Decency' being implemented during 2021
> 
> If you refuse to believe that, then you need to be reeducated quickly.....


Are you talking about sending me to the reeducation camps in China? 
That's harsh, you can see the little flag near my name its an Australian/NZL flag.


----------



## Elrick

djn said:


> Are you talking about sending me to the reeducation camps in China?
> That's harsh, you can see the little flag near my name its an Australian/NZL flag.


Crikey,

If you're a 100% Aussie, then you should have known the 'joke' being presented here.

We're not the sicko Yanks and their monumental travesty known as their 'Government'. We Aussies take the piss on all of them and their viewpoints, it's just who we really are especially now with this Covid-19 disaster and complete ignorance to their whole population within the US of A, as well as everywhere else on Planet Earth.

The First time in over 100 years, the US of A stopped leading and instead started attacking their own population through this ongoing re-writing of history and adherence to ignoring unemployment, sickness and collapse of their own economic system.

YES, the only way out for the Keynesian sickos in Washington, is to Print More Money for Wall Street - 24/7.

The reeducation camps are being pushed by the US Media today, just listen to the spewing filth that comes out now even though they took power but still wanting to burn ALL the remaining trump supporters. We are witnessing the first time ever when Winners become sore at winning, by openly attacking everyone that voted for the other side.

No, this isn't China here because at least in China, the population isn't attacking itself and wanting to imprison and reeducate over 75 million people, on voting for someone else. That is now a USA phenomenon that will not go away despite the Mass Media trying it's best to suppress it.


----------



## empyr

17 Days since that supposed update is coming "soon", yikes. Just ****ing post an update and stop stalling.


----------



## djn

imagine this, you build a company during the rise of the designer peripherals as they are becoming a huge moneymaker... you release a well-accpeted mouse, let's call it, .. the Venator..
then you use the brand you have made to " revolutionise " the market and design a never seen before the mouse.
The money is added to your account, but then comes radio silence..... nothing .... and all the work you have put in over the years just evaporates to nothing and you have burnt your reputation, your cash pig, All because you don't feel like updating or communication with your backers or possibly you're a thief..
Some will say .... djn he ran away with 100k he has made huge money.
Well, i say to that IF he made the mouse promised and it did what he said it would do he would have had a thriving business for yearssss... many more huge paydays with a happy customer base, possible buyouts ect... oh and the possibility he would have been the little guy who could.... as in Glorious Master Race and able to quit his day job selling boots to bigtiddygothgf .

Ahh well .... what a calamity.


----------



## empyr




----------



## djn

Called the business he claims to own (faMILY) and they told me he has left the company months ago... i called again pretending to be a tax agent and same answer they said he just "left"


----------



## Avalar

djn said:


> Called the business he claims to own (faMILY) and they told me he has left the company months ago... i called again pretending to be a tax agent and same answer they said he just "left"


...proof?


----------



## djn

Avalar said:


> ...proof?


you calling me a poof ?


----------



## akama

I guess we aint getting the mouse?  The project seemed serious and all.. if u consider he already released a previous mouse .. Atleast communicate with us, it aint that hard. Just use the phone while ur on the toilet and post an update. But no, no update at all..


----------



## empyr

I mean, according to -1nf1n1ty- he was going to post an update, that's been a month or more now, it's just a joke at this point tbh.


----------



## RyuKobs

Well atleast this became good learning experience for not trusting crowd funded projects. Previously I thought my decision to pre order no mans sky was bad. My sympathies go out to the people who funded for more than one mouse


----------



## proks92

mvp coming soon


Specs: Unreleased... Coming soon, follow our socials to be alerted when pre-orders begin for the MVP.




gamesense.gg





__
https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/lb3ykm

This is what we have all been waiting for😀😀😀


----------



## fellcbr1

Here are you guys losing hope for your Astrum (people have put in money for more than 5 of them, thats insane) and i am just thinking, if @bst really tossed everything out of the window and left Ninox to die then i won't have an updated Venator he talked about on the other thread


----------



## empyr

fellcbr1 said:


> Here are you guys losing hope for your Astrum (people have put in money for more than 5 of them, thats insane) and i am just thinking, if @bst really tossed everything out of the window and left Ninox to die then i won't have an updated Venator he talked about on the other thread


Him talking about making any other mouse while not having finished the Astrum was a joke in itself. Just the truth.


----------



## djn

__





Ninox Technology Limited - Company Profile - Endole


Ninox Technology Limited is an active company located in Chelmsford, Essex. View Ninox Technology Limited profile, shareholders, contacts, financials, industry and description.




suite.endole.co.uk





Seems like he has not handed in his taxes this year.


----------



## winz0r

You are a deeply troubled individual.


----------



## nyshak

... is wrong with some people.


----------



## djn

winz0r said:


> You are a deeply troubled individual.


Me? Troubled? It's all public information. 
This is no different from someone knocking an old lady over and stealing her handbag. 
If he wants to take $120 000 without being called out then he is dreaming.

If anyone should know about bad people taking things that are not theirs it should be a swede 🙊🙉🐒


----------



## djn

If someone can look in the financials for Ninox... seems like the money from Indigogo didnt reach the Ninox account.. does anyone have the photo of the bank account he posted?


----------



## djn

bst said:


> I didn't spend any of it on things not related to the mouse. I'm not giving it to the shoe company that's for sure. I don't like footwear, I think its boring, and the stock is a nightmare. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to make a mouse company, I only started one because I like it. Well I used to like it
> 
> Lets break down where $90,000 goes. $37,500 on the tooling, about $10,000 of it is shipping (yeah they include the shipping fees as part of the funding), then there's the Indiegogo/transaction fees of $7,500. So right now I have $45,000. Also there was about $10,000 spent on designing the mouse, which came out of the Ninox bank account, which luckily I don't have to spend again since I learnt from them how to do it myself.
> 
> The mouse is not that cheap to make, its about $20 (yes that is expensive for a 3360 mouse at cost). For shipping the backer's mice, assume its $12,000 (don't forget it has to be shipped to warehouses first), it leaves $37,000, so about 1850 mice, but in reality it'll be less than that because there are other charges like the black knight has extra costs. So there are about 1200 mice ordered on Indiegogo, that leaves at best 650 mice I can sell retail, which works out around $22,000 profit, if lucky, barely enough to order 1000 more mice, which works out to around $35,000 profit, almost enough to order 2000 mice, and you can probably work out the rest. But its a long road to making actual profit.
> 
> So while it might be slower, if I keep back the funds for the 650 mice ($13,000), then I can do a small crowdfund for around $10,000. You might say what is the point, if a crowdfund just gets you 350 more mice? The point is that it doesn't waste money that can be spent elsewhere, if it can't even reach £10,000, after it has been in many peoples hands and reviewed extensively, then it was never going to sell anyway, so I might as well move on to something else, like another mouse. But it also gives it a chance to sell more than I could order normally, instead of ordering 1000 mice, maybe I can jump straight to 2000 or more, which would move things along much faster in the long run.
> 
> So as you should be able to see, the money just drains away really easily, and things aren't as simple as "$90,000 is more than enough"
> 
> I attached a few pictures: The Ninox USD account which is purely Indiegogo funds, the Indiegogo finances page which shows the net funds, and the tooling costs. Obviously I could fake all of these but it's better than nothing.
> 
> Btw I know you are probably semi-trolling, but I wanted to explain things anyway, I'm sure some people will find it interesting



So are we accepting he paid the $37 000 upfront instead of paying the deposit only as written on the invoice?
If he paid it all upfront before the had a sample, thats sus as f. 

" Obviously I could fake all of these but it's better than nothing."
Words of a scammer


----------



## empyr

@bst


----------



## rat-

@bst


----------



## RyuKobs

I am guessing bst might have switched to selling keyboards with the astrum capital coupled with brexit and rising cost of manufacture chance of this coming out is slim. What a disappointment this has been, I realise **** happens with projects like this but is it too much to inform the backers who supported you about the projects status be it good or bad? 

Crying shame that backers have to be part time detectives just to get clues about *** happened to the project.


----------



## fellcbr1

at this time i would rather have bad-terrible news than no news at all, i would say it shows more caliber if he just came out and said everything that needed to be said than this radio silence we are getting.


----------



## eibbun

lost the chance to get a cyberboard because i was too scared to contribute to indiegogo. i blame bst 😆


----------



## rat-

@bst something someday?


----------



## Flair_OC

He logged into his account last time 9 months ago. Him not giving *any *comment on the situation for over a year is telling.
Time to move on for you guys, this isn't going anywhere anymore!


----------



## DAM20

SCAMMED WeirdHard ✊


----------



## empyr

@-1nf1n1ty- So i guess he lied to you? Along with the rest us of course


----------



## Flair_OC

I never got why he would brief a random forum member instead of updating...well his backers in a formal way.
The claimed "statement" from bst was always dubious to me but lines up with all the bs his backers had to deal to date.
It's dead, move on and see it as a lesson learned going forward.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

empyr said:


> @-1nf1n1ty- So i guess he lied to you? Along with the rest us of course


Maybe? All I did was reach out to him to see what's going on and typed what was said to me. I've been working so sorry for not getting back. I just remembered about this lol yeah that's all the information I got. From what I gathered from talking with him he's just trying to figure out a way to get it going (as in mailing them out) cause they're essentially done and he's trying to find ways to get that done. That's pretty much all I got guys, sorry. I know the ones that are really pissed are the ones that bought multiple, I only bought one so for me it's not that big of a deal but I can understand the frustration, it's my first Kickstarter type deal. I could try reaching out again

Update: I reached out just waiting for a reply back


----------



## Flair_OC

It's not on you, or any individual but bst to update his backers. Him not having done *anything *for over a year by now just makes it clear the project is dead and it's time to move on.


----------



## djn

Where are all the kids who were telling us not to pressure him a few years back? 
What if you all pressured him as well and he couldn't hide behind the cucks?


----------



## dlul

djn said:


> Where are all the kids who were telling us not to pressure him a few years back?
> What if you all pressured him as well and he couldn't hide behind the cucks?


The emotional damage you inflicted yourself over this is already worth more than what you spent on the mouse, time to move on and forget about it.


----------



## Flair_OC

djn said:


> Where are all the kids who were telling us not to pressure him a few years back?
> What if you all pressured him as well and he couldn't hide behind the cucks?



You should have a hard look at yourself and when you are at it look up the business model of kickstarter, indigogo and others.

You crowdfunded the development of a mouse, despite the fact that Ninox previous development had major hickups, them/him running the same production process plan (as in small volume single batch ordered at a big Chinese factory, which caused the struggles at previous releases in the first place) and tech projects on indigogo having a success rate of 20%.


----------



## gunit2004

I keep seeing this thread floating around every other week or so... people are still butthurt about this?

Apply some cream and move on, sheeeeeeesh lol.


----------



## Oh wow Secret Cow

gunit2004 said:


> I keep seeing this thread floating around every other week or so... people are still butthurt about this?
> 
> Apply some cream and move on, sheeeeeeesh lol.


Are you suggesting that people shouldn't be upset $90k in funding is gone without the dignity of an explanation? I didn't back the product, but there's no doubt it was very slimy the way this whole thing was handled. It doesn't help either that the product itself was actually very appealing


----------



## empyr

gunit2004 said:


> I keep seeing this thread floating around every other week or so... people are still butthurt about this?
> 
> Apply some cream and move on, sheeeeeeesh lol.


I'm not sure why you'd use "sheeesh", that's sort of stan mentality. However, the reason people are upset is, if you clearly look at the past updates, he continued let people believe there was a product coming and it was just a matter of time before it was finished, it was just about how he was going to get it sent out at this point.

Some people regardless of his past (Aurora) helped him, considering the mouse at the time was pretty damn forward thinking. However, now, a lot of companies have caught up and it's no longer as interesting of a product as it used to be.

It's been shady, scummy and slimy the entire way through.


----------



## djn

Flair_OC said:


> You should have a hard look at yourself and when you are at it look up the business model of kickstarter, indigogo and others.
> 
> You crowdfunded the development of a mouse, despite the fact that Ninox previous development had major hickups, them/him running the same production process plan (as in small volume single batch ordered at a big Chinese factory, which caused the struggles at previous releases in the first place) and tech projects on indigogo having a success rate of 20%.


Firstly your stat of 20% applied to posted projects not funded projects, there is a major difference here. 
100k is not a small project, I would consider this a decent project with the possibility of future variants of the mice, Dynasty? 
Everything in life has a risk, you can buy a house and have neighbours from hell or date a woman and she cheats on you. 
You don't just sit back and in life and accept the **** and be miserable. 

Also, I had a hard look my self and it seems I am one of a few who is willing to speak up and hold the POS accountable for ripping off 100K in funds from mostly young people. 
If you look back at all the clowns who gave him the benefit of the doubt has possibly cost us the opportunity to cause a scene and get an answer.. 
The Reddit posts are full of people saying .... delete this... don't attack him.... give him another year... if we all jumped on his back early when the lies came to fruition we would have a better platform. 

One more thing, if you ran a crowdfunded project and was going through issues with the factory or other things would you personally give an update? 
I would love to hear your truth on this?


----------



## a_ak57

Exactly what do you think would have been different if people yelled harder earlier? Going AWOL for long stretches is his MO, this thread being 30000 posts of "where are you BST???" instead of 3000 wouldn't change that.


----------



## djn

a_ak57 said:


> Exactly what do you think would have been different if people yelled harder earlier? Going AWOL for long stretches is his MO, this thread being 30000 posts of "where are you BST???" instead of 3000 wouldn't change that.


He didn't have to defend himself, he had an army of cucks defending himself for him. 
The Reddit post of the fellow was asking for updates and proof of money spent was deleted because people were saying " give him time, it's hard out there for one man, belive... put your hands together and beliveeeeee "
Why do you think there is barely any talk on the mousereview Reddit ? posts were deleted people were calls Karens for asking questions. 
The bloke from Odin mousepads stole less money than this and he has a sticky on mousepad reviews reddit blasting him.

He never needed to answer the complaints because white knights did it for him.
Where are they now? some have turned to the right side and want answers and the others are quite.


----------



## Elrick

gunit2004 said:


> I keep seeing this thread floating around every other week or so... people are still butthurt about this?


CORRECT. Lucky never handed over a cent for this, somehow knew it would end up here, like this.



gunit2004 said:


> Apply some cream and move on, sheeeeeeesh lol.


Some KY should do the task  .

Never hand over money for any Group Buy unless it's linked to a well known COMPANY that has delivered the very same product line previously. Although no longer approve of such business methods unless it's linked to DROP (they do at least provide opportunities to get back all your money).

Personally have stopped handing over money for any future stock delivery because the odds are, you're gonna get ripped-off.


----------



## gunit2004

Elrick said:


> CORRECT. Lucky never handed over a cent for this, somehow knew it would end up here, like this.
> 
> 
> 
> Some KY should do the task  .
> 
> Never hand over money for any Group Buy unless it's linked to a well known COMPANY that has delivered the very same product line previously. Although no longer approve of such business methods unless it's linked to DROP (they do at least provide opportunities to get back all your money).
> 
> Personally have stopped handing over money for any future stock delivery because the odds are, you're gonna get ripped-off.


I dropped the 50-60 bucks on it (or whatever it was I don't even remember at this point, lol) because it seemed like an intriguing mouse at the time. But with how much time has passed, if this thing showed up at my doorstep tomorrow I literally would not care because it's already outdated as hell compared to what has come to the market since then.


----------



## RaleighStClair

gunit2004 said:


> it's already outdated as hell compared to what has come to the market since then.


Yeah Im pretty sure you can get most of the shapes promised by the Astrum in currently released mice, and they are wireless too.


----------



## djn

Go to the campaign page... open it fully and scroll to the bottom. 
You will see the "Let us Know' 
Report the campaign as a fraud and they will make contact with BTS, blackpink whatever his name is. 

Use the "Let us know" link, located on the bottom of every campaign, to *report* the campaign to our Trust & Safety Team. The Trust & Safety team monitors feedback in order to determine the correct course of action to protect our community. For more on Trust & Safety, please visit *indiegogo*.com/trust


----------



## cassidy

djn said:


> Go to the campaign page... open it fully and scroll to the bottom.
> You will see the "Let us Know'
> Report the campaign as a fraud and they will make contact with BTS, blackpink whatever his name is.
> 
> Use the "Let us know" link, located on the bottom of every campaign, to *report* the campaign to our Trust & Safety Team. The Trust & Safety team monitors feedback in order to determine the correct course of action to protect our community. For more on Trust & Safety, please visit *indiegogo*.com/trust


Done


----------



## Hemanse

djn said:


> Go to the campaign page... open it fully and scroll to the bottom.
> You will see the "Let us Know'
> Report the campaign as a fraud and they will make contact with BTS, blackpink whatever his name is.
> 
> Use the "Let us know" link, located on the bottom of every campaign, to *report* the campaign to our Trust & Safety Team. The Trust & Safety team monitors feedback in order to determine the correct course of action to protect our community. For more on Trust & Safety, please visit *indiegogo*.com/trust


Hi there,
Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (Terms of Use | Indiegogo). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.
So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.
To protect our users' privacy, we're unable to share the action we take. At Indiegogo, we take the trust and safety of our community very seriously, and we greatly appreciate your patience and understanding throughout this review process. To learn more about Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety effort, please visit: www.indiegogo.com/trust
Please note that you do not need to contact us again. Doing so would create a new ticket and prolong the process. Thank you again for taking the time to get in touch with us and for helping to keep Indiegogo a safe and secure platform.


----------



## djn

Supposedly the UK law is different to the US laws and the money is not considered his until a certain time.
I watched a youtube video where a guy said it's better to have it set up in a surrounding country.. 
If they find he has taken the money and run he is pretty much ****ed, UK laws are pretty strict compared to other countries. 

Im sure there will be a story where he got covid almost died and so on... ill put my 6 mice on it ....


----------



## Hemanse

I have talked to another person that have backed quite a few Indiegogo and Kickstarter campaigns. Hes been burned quite a few times and have always gotten this money back by making a complaint with the bank. I have made one now and hope the same. I really dont care about this mouse anymore. Its pretty obvious that BST dont give a ****, even if there are no good updates, you still keep the communication open and say whats happening.


----------



## empyr

Hemanse said:


> I have talked to another person that have backed quite a few Indiegogo and Kickstarter campaigns. Hes been burned quite a few times and have always gotten this money back by making a complaint with the bank. I have made one now and hope the same. I really dont care about this mouse anymore. Its pretty obvious that BST dont give a ****, even if there are no good updates, you still keep the communication open and say whats happening.


What did you write to your bank, if you don't mind me asking? I'd like to do the same. I assume you're Danish since your flag is set as such.


----------



## Hemanse

empyr said:


> What did you write to your bank, if you don't mind me asking? I'd like to do the same. I assume you're Danish since your flag is set as such.


They can't do anything i found out. I should have made a complaint in 2019 when it was supposed to have been send, so i guess I'm/we are just out of money or wait for BST.

I also got a email back from Indiegogo today after i wrote them with the following:

Thank you for your note. I wanted to let you know that your concern/s about *Ninox Astrum: Lightweight Modular Gaming Mouse *requires investigation from our Trust and Safety Team. We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of this campaign. We may or may not reach out again for further details from you. 

Perks are offers made and managed solely by campaigners. Indiegogo _does not _guarantee that campaigns will succeed or that perks will be delivered. However, campaigners are expected to be communicative and responsive to their backers. To help facilitate communication, I’ve forwarded them this support message as a notification that you may do so. Here is their contact information for your reference:

*Ninox Astrum: Lightweight Modular Gaming Mouse*

Campaign Owner's Name: Russell Vint
Campaign Owner's Email: [email protected]

I also encourage you to review their campaign Update tab, which contains the latest news on their campaign’s progress and perk fulfillment: UPDATE.

Thanks for your patience and hope you hear from the campaign owner soon.
Regards,
Oscar
Trust & User Operations
Indiegogo


----------



## empyr

Fair enough. Should probably have done it the first moment he started taking months between updates, either way, shame on you @bst


----------



## cassidy

This was the response I received










*Oscar* (Indiegogo Support)
Apr 3, 2021, 5:59 PDT
Hi there,

Thank you for your note. I've looked into your concern and I wanted to let you know that your issue requires investigation from our Trust and Safety Team.

I've already escalated your ticket accordingly. We may or may not reach out again for further details from you. Thanks in advance for your patience while we complete our investigation!
Regards,
Oscar
Trust & User Operations
Indiegogo


----------



## Hemanse

Everyone that can should just report them, i would imagine the more reports they get, the better. 

"Indiegogo _does not _guarantee that campaigns will succeed or that perks will be delivered. However, campaigners are expected to be communicative and responsive to their backers. " Its been a year almost without an update, so might be time to kick BST in the backside.


----------



## Freqout

This campaign is now 2 and a half years late, with no updates in 9 months. it is super ****ty of @bst to literally say nothing at all to the poeple who trusted him with their money for NINE MONTHS..
NOTHING. 
NOT A ****ING WORD.

I don't think this was a cam by intent but this shows incredible contempt for his backers and, while I understand wanting to keep imrpoving th eproduct, you have to draw a line and start producing or else you are just a ****ing fraud.

The contempt is unbelievable.


----------



## Avalar

Could really use that money I invested right about now lol...


----------



## Elrick

Avalar said:


> Could really use that money I invested right about now lol...


Don't cry too much, compared to the huge amounts I lost over the last 6 years.

Yet LIFE is still perfectly terrific. You can always accrue the losses over time and minimize your taxes.

All's good when you pay far less tax over your spending time, for ANY items.


----------



## Avalar

Elrick said:


> Don't cry too much, compared to the huge amounts I lost over the last 6 years.
> 
> Yet LIFE is still perfectly terrific. You can always accrue the losses over time and minimize your taxes.
> 
> All's good when you pay far less tax over your spending time, for ANY items.


Oh yeah, I'm not too worried about it. I only just remembered this still existed lol. I can say I've finally reached the point where I'd rather have the money than the mice, with the Model D Wireless leaks out there.
🤤


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

I'm sorry everyone, I wish I could help more, he hasn't responded to me either


----------



## empyr

-1nf1n1ty- said:


> I'm sorry everyone, I wish I could help more, he hasn't responded to me either


You shouldn't be sorry at all. It's not on you for not getting a reply, or not making him update or w/e he was planning on doing, if anything at all ever. It's just sad at this point.


----------



## Avalar

Is it described anywhere what can be done for the buyers in this kind of situation? Like would X amount of reports do anything?


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

djn said:


> Supposedly the UK law is different to the US laws and the money is not considered his until a certain time.
> I watched a youtube video where a guy said it's better to have it set up in a surrounding country..
> If they find he has taken the money and run he is pretty much ****ed, UK laws are pretty strict compared to other countries.
> 
> Im sure there will be a story where he got covid almost died and so on... ill put my 6 mice on it ....


Gold! I cannot wait for the response now


----------



## empyr

Avalar said:


> Is it described anywhere what can be done for the buyers in this kind of situation? Like would X amount of reports do anything?


I don't think so. They'll just send him a copy paste email to update the campaign members probably and send you a email that they're "on it", honestly. I could be wrong, but I think sadly, it's been way too long to do anything about any of it.


----------



## Avalar

Responded yesterday asking if there was any scenario where backers get their money back in cases where the campaign owner doesn't reply. Got this:



> Hi there,,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. We don't want this experience to make you lose faith in crowdfunding. We will send a message to the campaigner of Ninox Astrum: Lightweight Modular Gaming Mouse to remind them of their responsibilities to keep backers updated on the status of their project and to fulfill perks.
> 
> I’ve forwarded this support message to the campaign owner so you can communicate directly regarding your perk or a refund. Learn about our Crowdfunding Refund Policy here.
> 
> Campaigner:
> 
> 
> Campaign Owner's Name: Russell Vint
> Campaign Owner's Email: [email protected]; [email protected]
> Backer:
> 
> 
> Backer's Name:
> Backer's Email Address:
> 
> Hope this helps!,
> 
> Regards,
> Richard
> Trust & User Operations
> Indiegogo


----------



## empyr

Yeah, same email as everyone else. Doesn't help in any way, he probably doesn't check anything related to Ninox, so they've probably got no way of actually getting him to do anything.


----------



## djn

Spoke with a fellow from Press Start Australia last week. its a website here. 
Explained it all to him and he is happy to run a story if ther is one once investiagted, ill keep you updated if he lets me know anything.


----------



## Elrick

djn said:


> Spoke with a fellow from Press Start Australia last week. its a website here.


That's your problem right there - AUSTRALIA has no international presence anywhere. You have just wasted your time, I should know, I live in this awful place. Made the mistake of being born here, so ScoMo and his brain-dead followers, can't eject me and I know how this place functions.



djn said:


> Explained it all to him and he is happy to run a story if ther is one once investiagted, ill keep you updated if he lets me know anything.


Yeah, about as useful as using Biden's second hand tissues  .

You poor guys got screwed, hence get use to that, NEVER again pour money into any more 'promises' on any Website. If it looks and sounds like another secondhand hand car salesman scam, it most likely is.

It's the internet and the scam artists are everywhere, making a KILLING on the inept. Don't be in that category or continue losing ever more money...... whining and crying about it won't get your money back.


----------



## tacomn

Elrick said:


> Yeah, about as useful as using Biden's second hand tissues  .


What does that even mean? like I understand you are throwing shade on Biden, but I do not get the putdown you are trying to say.


----------



## Rhys7

I literally don't care about the lost money, I just loved the idea of the astrum, especially as a left hander so its just a shame it never happened. 

Hope something in the future similar comes out with the same or better customizability...=)


----------



## Elrick

Rhys7 said:


> I literally don't care about the lost money, I just loved the idea of the astrum, especially as a left hander so its just a shame it never happened.


Yeah, lefties have always gotten short shrift, from the Companies.



Rhys7 said:


> Hope something in the future similar comes out with the same or better customizability...=)


It will, but it shall all be for the Righties. It't how the world works and I started out as a Leftie but eventually taught myself to use my Right. Hence, I feel your predicament but unless you physically lose your Right hand altogether through an accident, it's easier to switch on over than to remain on the Left Hand.

My two sons also started out using their left hands, but now they have gone all Right. It's how the world works, like it did in 1960 and also towards 2060. No difference in its blatant discrimination hence you go along to get along.

Sound's familiar, doesn't it?


----------



## DAM20

Yo we got an update, maybe I can finally get a mouse that I won't use anymore coz I bought one in the meantime?!


----------



## Avalar

DAM20 said:


> Yo we got an update, maybe I can finally get a mouse that I won't use anymore coz I bought one in the meantime?!


Yeah I saw that as well. It's definitely not a positive thing, at least not yet, but it's an update nonetheless.


----------



## Hemanse

He just seems to offer excuse upon excuse. He is short 15.000$ and is now starting to sell rebranded keyboards hoping to fund the Astrum. Why do i have a sneaking suspicion that funds for the Astrum are getting used or have been used to start a new company selling keyboards.


----------



## t3ram

He had like ~9000$ more already than expected, can't really believe that the shipping costs have risen up that high but at least we finally got an update, so maybe we will see the mouse by the end of the year


----------



## lurkerguy

End of the year probably too optimistic, but if it ever drops I would still use it


----------



## a_ak57

Well, he says the shipping was one hit and the other was a new supplier requesting more money. But regardless, I don't agree with his logic that posting "still working on things" non-updates are no better than going radio silent for an entire calendar year. If you keep posting weekly updates of "I called the factory yet again and they won't explain anything to me or work with me" then you get people on your side. But instead we got to a point where it became a reasonable question of if this dude is even alive.

I think it's also pretty crazy to put so much valuation in the Ninox brand, that he and this mystery partner (probably his parents) would pass on bail-outs. The Ninox brand not only has zero value but has negative value at this point because honestly, how many people are going to sign up for round 3 of a BST mouse that will take years to develop with zero updates and millions of setbacks and broken promises? We've hit the "fool me twice" stage of things. I'm someone who likes to toss money at kickstarters knowing full well I may just be setting that money on fire, and even I will have an incredibly hard time justifying supporting another Ninox product.


----------



## -1nf1n1ty-

Personally I think he should of went the way of giving up control of the company. At least it would get the mouse out, or maybe they could still be involved in someway. Dunno.


----------



## Ukkooh

a_ak57 said:


> Well, he says the shipping was one hit and the other was a new supplier requesting more money. But regardless, I don't agree with his logic that posting "still working on things" non-updates are no better than going radio silent for an entire calendar year. If you keep posting weekly updates of "I called the factory yet again and they won't explain anything to me or work with me" then you get people on your side. But instead we got to a point where it became a reasonable question of if this dude is even alive.


Considering that it is a chinese factory the factory could have cut off contact completely if he actually did that. Regardless of that the radio silence wasn't the right way to go, but I still appreciate the recent updates. I assumed that the project was dead and my money gone.


----------



## Zakman

While I'd still like the mouse, I don't think we'll get it even with the updates. By the time he's solved the shipping problem another problem will come to light. I do believe him that the mouse is finished but the length of time taken means that supply chain issues will continue to creep up. I won't be surprised if at the end of this year the manufacturer says they're no longer interested in creating the mouse for whatever reason. And then by the time he's found another manufacturer, it'll be more expensive and so he'd need to raise more funds just to cover shipping etc. Creating anything from scratch can't be done haphazardly, and offering this many colours was a very bad idea in hindsight. I can see why he's done it since he was unsure the kickstarter was going to be a success and he needed more people on board but it's created even more problems and more importantly, created major trust issues.


----------



## djn

I mentioned last week i spoke with an Australian online website about the mouse. 
I messaged him this morning, he said he was able to get on to Russells Father a week ago through the family business. 
He asked to speak with Russell and the fellow said he was not in, which is different than last times "he no longer works here " 
He pessed Dave for his name and who he was/worked for, possibly more people have made the call in ?
I would assume the call from Dave from Press Start was enough to possivly send a rocket into headquarters.

Press Start will still run with the story according to my last message.
The business partner is obviously his parent.. they are all over the Goverment documents and Tax Returns...


----------



## RyuKobs

What a way to lose customers and future customers and supporters trust by going the no updates route smh. If people were made aware of the issues in timely manner some of them would have pledged extra funds to help out with the increased costs. 

Also why not cut the extra colors and refund the customers or ask them if they would like black or white versions. I think that might be cheaper.


----------



## Avalar

I wonder how much ebay buyers would pay for these if they show up..


----------



## djn

Can someone please link to the new Keyboard? the old link is dead?


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## empyr

How bst can ever blame corona for the delays is beyond me, this mouse was supposed to be finished way before 2020 ever happened and we're soon half way in 2021, it's beyond me how a person can continue to blame anything but himself for all of it, sure, I'm sure the factories and shipping companies doesn't help, but you signed up to do this yourself, you finish it, you don't blame anybody but yourself.

Overall, using funds from the project to generate more funds to finish the project, lets just say, that sounds about as shady as it gets. What a lame update.

I wish I could get a 100% refund right now.


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## ewiggle

I appreciate the updates. Still looking forward to my mouse


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## djn

See what happens when you update and communicate... 31 days of no posts... content somewhat customers...


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## empyr

I still stand behind what i said. I wish i could get a 100% refund, his project in my eyes is a failure, regardless of what happens at this point.


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## djn

he posted a sneaky update.


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## t3ram

If anyone is interested, there was an update on idiegogo.

" Keyboards aren't selling as fast as expected blablabla...."


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## empyr

The mouse at this point is so outdated, it's insane. The only feature that's "interesting" is the changing the sensors position, but that doesn't make up for the fact this mouse was designed to be top tier 3-4 years ago.


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## a_ak57

I mean, the main selling points were it being a WMO shape that can change into an ergo shape, and the movable sensor. Both of those are still valid. It's not like there have been any meaningful changes in sensors or switches since this was designed.

I guess I can see it being "outdated" if you're fully into the ultralight craze and think 75-80g is too much, or don't like using wired mice. But if this were a fresh product I don't think $65 would be out of the ordinary. I'd say the real downside of BST being BST is that the hype is completely dead, so we probably won't see people 3D printing new shapes for it and such.


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## empyr

Nah, I'm not really "into" the ultralight craze, while that's been said: I do think lighter mice feels better to use, to a certain extent. But you could argue that the 3360 is pretty outdated when the 3389 and 3370 are now available, and the only reason the 3389 wasn't gonna be used was due to a "2 month delay" back in December 7, 2018. I'm sure a lot would argue, you wouldn't be able to tell the sensors apart, and sure. I'm sure many wouldn't and many wouldn't truly "care" but the newer sensors just have a better error rate and features.

And yes, of course: If bst would make this a 3370 wireless and implemented it "well" (Doubtful either way), that would be a much bigger selling point than anything else above.

Ontop of that I think, unless the optical switches are going to be done well, I'd much rather just use something like Kalih 8.0's


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## t3ram

I would still be happy if the mouse will get released. For me it doesn't matter if it has a 3360 or 3389 and is 80g or more, the main selling point for me were the change able shells. Which still would be a novum on mice if good implemented.


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## t3ram

"Update
Hi everyone, this isn't a very interesting update, more like just checking in. I want to keep updating at least once a month so everyone knows I'm still alive and working on it, whether there is much to say or not.
Thanks
Russell "


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## Ephant

"Hey can I copy your homework?"


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## Kommando Kodiak

I came here to post that pwnage image too but i got my shot in there on topic!


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## empyr

It's been dead for years.


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## Elrick

empyr said:


> It's been dead for years.


Don't get involved with Group Buys anymore, you will get shystered  .


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## DAM20

Ephant said:


> "Hey can I copy your homework?"


can't copy something that theoretically doesn't exist


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## djn

ITS OFFICIAL, HE HAS GIVEN UP. GG


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## gipetto

I already asked bst some time ago to open source the files, to which he vehemently refused. I hope he would reconsider especially as I no longer have a debit card to get a refund on, not that i expect to. After all he's taken it's the least he could do.


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## Elrick

gipetto said:


> I already asked bst some time ago to open source the files, to which he vehemently refused. I hope he would reconsider especially as I no longer have a debit card to get a refund on, not that i expect to. After all he's taken it's the least he could do.


Another proof positive of why Group-Buying, Mice, essentially places the buyer at an extraordinary disadvantage here  .

You get sucked into a vortex of 'smoke and mirrors' and many fake promises, it's like trying to choose an 'honest politician' during 2022, it can't be done in any way.

Hence, if you can't get any truth to any group buy held by this individual, then why fall for any more of his promises  ?


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## djn

Elrick said:


> Another proof positive of why Group-Buying, Mice, essentially places the buyer at an extraordinary disadvantage here  .
> 
> You get sucked into a vortex of 'smoke and mirrors' and many fake promises, it's like trying to choose an 'honest politician' during 2022, it can't be done in any way.
> 
> Hence, if you can't get any truth to any group buy held by this individual, then why fall for any more of his promises  ?


What's your fetish and mentioning politics. ?


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## Elrick

djn said:


> What's your fetish and mentioning politics. ?


It's closely linked together. Didn't you know? 

Smoke and Mirrors, Group Buys and Dodgy Political Systems, both depend upon Trust and Naivety  .


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## empyr

djn said:


> ITS OFFICIAL, HE HAS GIVEN UP. GG


Seriously? What about the keyboard selling and making the mouse? Is everyone gonna get refunded now or is he just taking it all and leaving?


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## badben25

Please check here and make up your own minds without following hysterics:









Ninox Astrum: Lightweight Modular Gaming Mouse


13 different mice, in one lightweight package, designed in England by Ninox. | Check out 'Ninox Astrum: Lightweight Modular Gaming Mouse' on Indiegogo.




www.indiegogo.com


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## djn

badben25 said:


> Please check here and make up your own minds without following hysterics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ninox Astrum: Lightweight Modular Gaming Mouse
> 
> 
> 13 different mice, in one lightweight package, designed in England by Ninox. | Check out 'Ninox Astrum: Lightweight Modular Gaming Mouse' on Indiegogo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indiegogo.com



"without following, hysterics" are you on meth? where are they hysterics? 
Even if people were being hysterical, why would that matter? 
Someone has led and conned 1039 people with lies and bullshit for 3 years? I feel that warrants people being hysterical or outspoken.


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## badben25

djn said:


> "without following, hysterics" are you on meth? where are they hysterics?
> Even if people were being hysterical, why would that matter?
> Someone has led and conned 1039 people with lies and bullshit for 3 years? I feel that warrants people being hysterical or outspoken.


It wasn't directed at anyone, but I've been around the internet long enough to know what happens in such discourse. Now that I look into it, your previous posts are an example. It was meant to direct people towards the source, there's no right or wrong in my mind. I don't even care about this mouse or what's happening around it since none of it piques my interest. It was yet another early investment campaign that didn't work out for the investors.


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## empyr

While, you're correct @badben25, I do think bst and the way he kept carrying on for years with delays (way before corona mind you). I really do hope he fully refunds everyone and never makes another kickstarter. He clearly isn't good at it. However, I do have my doubts that anybody will ever recieve any of money again, tbh.

I'd be very happy to be proven wrong though.


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## Pirx

tbh i'm surprised that people still cared about this project, with all the good mice coming out.


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## Avalar

Pirx said:


> tbh i'm surprised that people still cared about this project, with all the good mice coming out.


Tbh I wouldn't care at all if I had just gotten one mouse. It's not even about the money, either. It's that I got one of every color, and it would have been nice to have the full set. I do have my doubts about anything but the basic versions of the mouse coming out, if they do come out. Hopefully that translates to me getting 5 or 6 of those instead.


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## Elrick

Pirx said:


> tbh i'm surprised that people still cared about this project, with all the good mice coming out.


EXACTLY.

Too much choice of far better designs and shapes already flooding the market everywhere, on Planet Earth. BST not only dropped the ball, he left this dimension never to come back any time soon  .


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