# [NBC] 3-D printed gun fires 6 shots — then falls apart



## Joephis19

SOURCE
Quote:


> The part printed by the group is called the lower receiver, which is where a round is received from the magazine. Pictures show it to be very well made, and it appears to fit exactly to the other parts in the gun kit they used.


Only the lower receiver is printed, but this makes me excited and nervous all at the same time.


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## Huzzbutt

So part of a gun is printed unsuccsefully. Kinda makes me think nothing at all.
Any would e perp still has to come up with ammo and the rest...

Take a second mortgage to buy a 3d printer in order to make a unreliable gun part or grab a kitchen knife?

The funny thing is that the #d printer is treated like a magical device with which you can make stuff. Where the making of stuff is the important thing. Banning 3d printers because you can make barely functioning parts with them is as stupid is as banning rocks because you can bash it against another rock and make em smaller and easier to throw. (unless you have flint which as far as i know is worse than WMD's)

We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.


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## jprovido

DIY guns? scary


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## mott555

Meh. Send me to a good metalworking shop, give me some time, and I could probably make a musket that works better than anything a modern 3D printer can create, in less time than it would take to create the CAD files to operate the printer. I suppose we should ban metalworking tools as well.

Also
Quote:


> especially considering they were firing a lower-caliber cartridge than the gun would normally shoot.


What is this I don't even...


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## knd775

I don't understand why people are criticizing this because it lacks practicality. That's not really the point. I for one am excited to see this as a proof-of-concept.


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## exnihilo

I work for a major shipper, and here's the kicker concerning the article: The only part of the gun, that makes it a "gun", and hence harder to ship, is the lower. We can ship the upper, barrel, assemblies, etc... but you throw a lower in there and it becomes an FFL issue. Crazy, huh? So print those lowers and order the rest online, ta-da!

cg


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## The Master Chief

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exnihilo*
> 
> I work for a major shipper, and here's the kicker concerning the article: The only part of the gun, that makes it a "gun", and hence harder to ship, is the lower. We can ship the upper, barrel, assemblies, etc... but you throw a lower in there and it's becomes an FFL issue. Crazy, huh? So print those lowers and order the rest online, ta-da!
> cg


Indeed! lol.


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## Phoenixlight

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.


It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily. This would bypass every check put in place to stop certain people gaining access to them.


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## Minnetonka16

Saw this on reddit last night. I can't believe they expected it to fire a second shot... ITS FREAKING PLASTIC. They're acting like it's titanium or something.


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## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Joephis19*
> 
> SOURCE
> Only the lower receiver is printed, but this makes me excited and nervous all at the same time.


Why?

You still need the barrel and slide to be made out of detectable parts.

Also, the range and accuracy are for junk, if done on a pistol. If you are that close and want to kill someone, use a non-metallic blade. If done on a rifle, who cares? You have range but no reliability.

Besides, it's not like non-metallic lowers haven't been around for decades. Look at Glocks.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exnihilo*
> 
> The only part of the gun, that makes it a "gun", and hence harder to ship, is the lower.


Yup, on an AR, the lower is what is regulated. As long as you have a legally registered AR lower, you can legally take the upper off and convert it to a .50 BMG if you want. It's the lower that is Federally regulated.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily.


Enjoy England. Here we have a Second Amendment.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *knd775*
> 
> I don't understand why people are criticizing this because it lacks practicality. That's not really the point. I for one am excited to see this as a proof-of-concept.


It's a lot easier to make/buy a reliable plastic part than that to use an expensive 3D printer that costs well over $1000.

Here is a molded stock for a POS Hi Point 9mm that costs $57.



Sorry, I just don't see the big deal here. But then again, I've been dealing with firearms for over 50 years now.


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## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily. This would bypass every check put in place to stop certain people gaining access to them.
Click to expand...

Not really. A 3D printer is harder to get than a gun. Especially if you live in a city where there's any kind of black market.


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## Minnetonka16

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Not really. A 3D printer is harder to get than a gun. Especially if you live in a city where there's any kind of black market.


And especially consumer ones... those don't have tolerances anywhere NEAR what a gun would require to not blow up in your hands, and won't for years.


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## exnihilo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The Master Chief*
> 
> Indeed! lol.


Man, I would love to do an AR project! We're modder's & OC'ers here. I think that translates well to firepower too









.

cg


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## Phoenixlight

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Enjoy England. Here we have a Second Amendment.


Maybe Wallmart should just hand out free, un-traceable guns then whenever a customer spends more than $50.00 in store, especially to angry looking skin heads.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Not really. A 3D printer is harder to get than a gun. Especially if you live in a city where there's any kind of black market.


Yes, at the moment they're are nice and expensive which will put a lot of people off them. However, they will naturally become cheaper over time and if people are able to print whatever they want whenever they want without being monitored then this could become a very serious problem.


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## Homeles

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Enjoy England. Here we have a Second Amendment.


Just because there are laws that say it's okay to do whatever doesn't necessarily mean those laws are just or the best way to go about things.

Not that I'm for or against the 2nd Amendment, but "argument from tradition" is a rhetorical fallacy.
Quote:


> Sorry, I just don't see the big deal here. But then again, I've been dealing with firearms for over 50 years now.


You don't think 3D printers will come down in cost? You don't think that better materials will come around?

That's a bit shortsighted.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> Maybe Wallmart should just hand out free, un-traceable guns then whenever a customer spends more than $50.00 in store, especially to angry looking skin heads.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29


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## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> Yes, at the moment they're are nice and expensive which will put a lot of people off them. However, they will naturally become cheaper over time and if people are able to print whatever they want whenever they want without being monitored then this could become a very serious problem.


Which is a criminal more likely to do? Purchase a $200 3D printer (in the future assuming they become cheap), purchase/pirate expensive CAD software, learn how to use said CAD software, and print a firearm? Or go purchase a used 9mm for $100 from a black market dealer?

In any case, it's a moot point. 3D printers only create plastic parts, and you can't make a gun out of plastic. A shotgun operates around 8,000 psi, a handgun around 30,000 psi, and a high-powered rifle might be over 60,000 psi. No plastic can contain that kind of pressure. Which brings us back to the previous point...is a criminal going to buy a 3D printer, learn how to use CAD software, print most of a gun, purchase the rest of the parts that can't be printed, and assemble and test it? Or just purchase a used and probably stolen gun from a black market dealer?


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## Homeles

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Which is a criminal more likely to do? Purchase a $200 3D printer (in the future assuming they become cheap), purchase/pirate expensive CAD software, learn how to use said CAD software, and print a firearm? Or go purchase a used 9mm for $100 from a black market dealer?
> In any case, it's a moot point. 3D printers only create plastic parts, and you can't make a gun out of plastic.


For now. That goes for both statements. You don't know that 3D printing won't involve other materials eventually, and you don't know that plastics won't develop to the point that they'll be able to be used in this application.
Quote:


> A shotgun operates around 8,000 psi, a handgun around 30,000 psi, and a high-powered rifle might be over 60,000 psi. No plastic can contain that kind of pressure. Which brings us back to the previous point...is a criminal going to buy a 3D printer, learn how to use CAD software, print most of a gun, purchase the rest of the parts that can't be printed, and assemble and test it? Or just purchase a used and probably stolen gun from a black market dealer?


This isn't about printing one gun. This is about printing dozens, hundreds perhaps.


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## Clovertail100

Now imagining an anon army with 3D printed guns downloaded from 4chan, revolting against a corrupt government.

/begins writing movie.


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## Valor958

I don't really see the big deal about this. These guns are only good for 5-6 shots on a prime piece... enough to do what they need to do (home protection, rob a bank), but no viable for extended use.

As for how hard it is to use the CAD software, it isn't really that hard if you know what you want, plus... there's bound to be templates a plenty out there ready to go. The misnomer that all criminals or people looking to make these guns are stupid/ignorant underestimates the ones we actually need to worry about.

In the end, the people who want guns can get them no matter what. Being able to print what comes down to a 1 time use revolver (5-6 shots, then poof) isn't a big deal. Train yourself in throwing knives or bring a construction grade nail or rivet gun and you can do just as much/more damage. Heck, look at Danny Trejo's character in Desperado


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## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Homeles*
> 
> This isn't about printing one gun. This is about printing dozens, hundreds perhaps.


So you're worried that the black market will begin to sell 3D-printed guns instead of ones built by traditional firearms manufacturers? Either way, it's still illegal.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> In the end, the people who want guns can get them no matter what. Being able to print what comes down to a 1 time use revolver (5-6 shots, then poof) isn't a big deal. Train yourself in throwing knives or bring a construction grade nail or rivet gun and you can do just as much/more damage. Heck, look at Danny Trejo's character in Desperado


This x1000. Just about anything can be used as a weapon, if someone wants a weapon to commit a crime with they will use whatever is cheap, easy, and convenient.


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## Homeles

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> So you're worried that the black market will begin to sell 3D-printed guns instead of ones built by traditional firearms manufacturers? Either way, it's still illegal.


You aren't getting it. This cuts out the black market. This can be done in anyone's basement.


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## Huzzbutt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Homeles*
> 
> Just because there are laws that say it's okay to do whatever doesn't necessarily mean those laws are just or the best way to go about things.
> Not that I'm for or against the 2nd Amendment, but "argument from tradition" is a rhetorical fallacy.
> You don't think 3D printers will come down in cost? You don't think that better materials will come around?
> That's a bit shortsighted.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29


Since better materials are available a "gun-ready" 3d pritner is nothing but a CNC machine. As expenses go anytime you feel the need to manipulate metal 110v in US or 220 in EU just doesn't cut it.
So in order for it to be a feasible option for shenanigans you would need a magical device capable of milling metal without blowing every fuse in the house, furthermore it would need to have the power to roll cold steel (unless you want a handexploding zipgun).

the whole thing is a media friendly spectacle.
Sure future material tech could probably change the game but im still sure that you need a propellant.

unless...

3d printer coilguns? Print capacitors, magnets, barrel, and all that....


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## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Homeles*
> 
> This isn't about printing one gun. This is about printing dozens, hundreds perhaps.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Homeles*
> 
> You aren't getting it. This cuts out the black market. This can be done in anyone's basement.


Maybe I don't know how to think like a criminal, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to print dozens or hundreds of guns unless they wanted to sell them. And selling without a firearms dealer license means black market.


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## Valor958

I vote for just taking a bullet and jamming it into someone. It's very feasible with some larger caliber rounds. Plus... when they're doing the CSI-type investigation, what do you think they'll find?
"It appears they were shot 100 times by the same bullet... how weird..."


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## sapper

honestly?guys think further?this is a theorycrafter dream come true!how?they test durability this way with cheap mat for bullet and gun!then once they have found a very durable way they make it in real,with awsome mat !like flash bainite etc!this cut r&d engineer testing time by a lot!


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## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> I vote for just taking a bullet and jamming it into someone. It's very feasible with some larger caliber rounds. Plus... when they're doing the CSI-type investigation, what do you think they'll find?
> "It appears they were shot 100 times by the same bullet... how weird..."


lol. I have a disarmed .50 BMG round on my desk. It is MASSIVE. It could easily be used as a small club.


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## Crazy9000

I don't understand why anyone is looking at this from a gun control standpoint. You can get an old beat up CNC for a few grand and make a real one... there is no threat at all from being able to print single shot 3d printed parts.


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## Aesir

I like how worried some people are getting. Gun's are obviously more dangerous than people, but it seems that the reason someone would want this is not because they can get a cheap gun, because you can already get a murder ready gun for <$100 legally. The true goal if I had to guess is to convert your average $800 AR-15 into a full auto M16 and bypass having to get a class 3 FFL licence to legally get one that wasn't made before the 1986 automatic weapons ban in the US.

But if the possibility that some schmuck is going to build himself an automatic M16 is going to ban 3D printing, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore. You can easily file down the sear pin to get a free automatic, which gangbangers already do, and the world didn't end because crime rates are at their lowest rate since WWII.

I for one can't wait for a useful high resolution affordable 3D printer, making custom brackets and enclosures would be sick.


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## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sapper*
> 
> honestly?guys think further?this is a theorycrafter dream come true!how?they test durability this way with cheap mat for bullet and gun!then once they have found a very durable way they make it in real,with awsome mat !like flash bainite etc!this cut r&d engineer testing time by a lot!


People are freaking about the possiblity of using a 3D printer to make gun parts, without realizing the virtually unlimited positive applications this technology has to offer. Like others have mentioned, a CNC or Lathe can make much more viable parts, and no one is freaking out about that.
How about custom making toys for your children, or remaking/fixing parts of toys that break? Making custom house hold knick-knacks and such. I could think of a dozen places around my apartment that could use a little custom hook or something that frankly they just don't sell in stores. Right now, I have to find what's available and MAKE it work... how about making what I need instead.
This is NOT a big deal... not even remotely. Though this proof-of-concept model lasted 6 shots, how many failed models lasted only 1-2... how many failed completely? Once a 3D printer can use a more viable resin there won't be a concern here. As for making hundreds or thousands... why would a career criminal/weapons dealer make thousands of faulty guns. Considering your market, would you want a gang of angry criminals coming after you after one of theirs dies/is maimed by a faulty 3d printed gun?
Think it through and stop with the shallow arguements. This is the first real step, but current and even coming generation 3d printers aren't viable for what is being feared here. 3-4 generations and a leap in resin strength, maybe... but let's argue about that in 5-6 years shall we?


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## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> I don't understand why anyone is looking at this from a gun control standpoint. You can get an old beat up CNC for a few grand and make a real one... there is no threat at all from being able to print single shot 3d printed parts.


This or you can churn out sten guns to the same quality as their WW2 counterparts with a few basic tools and a handful of man hours so crappy dangerous 3d printed gunparts really are not something to get worked up over


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## DayoftheGreek

Did they say what 3D printer made these parts? Are we talking about a hundred+ dollar reprap, a thousand+ dollar comercial model, or a ten thousand dollar+ industrial model?

I think this tech really is in general infancy, so advances might come a lot faster than people are expecting. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the high quality rapid protyping machines could already print working lowers rated for much more than 6 shots.


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## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> Maybe Wallmart should just hand out free, un-traceable guns then whenever a customer spends more than $50.00 in store, especially to angry looking skin heads.


Yeah, that's the ticket. Why don't you make more straw man arguments why don't you?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Homeles*
> 
> Just because there are laws that say it's okay to do whatever doesn't necessarily mean those laws are just or the best way to go about things.


Just because there are laws PERIOD doesn't mean that people will OBEY THEM. See definition: Criminal

And just for the record, I can make lower for an AR15 (or just about any other METALIC part for a gun ... including an assembly for an Auto Sear, to turn an AR-15 into a FULLY AUTOMATIC weapon in about an hour and with about $1000 worth of metal working machines ... ALL of which I already own). So the notion that someone might ignore EXISTING LAW and hand manufacture something that takes a specialized machine, doesn't really phase me in the least.


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## DayoftheGreek

Make an entire AK-47 (almost) out of a shovel!

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!


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## Blameless

There is no big deal here, and the budding hysteria about 3D printed firearms only reveals the abject ignorance and fear of many people.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> So part of a gun is printed unsuccsefully.


It was successful.

The lower receiver is the part of the weapon that experiences the most stress. If it can survive six rounds, so could the complete weapon. That said, it's still not going to revolutionize anything.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jprovido*
> 
> DIY guns? scary


More effective and reliable improvised firearms have been around for hundreds of years.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily.


How do you propose you stop them?

I can quite literally make a functional shotgun with a pipe, a spring, and a nail. Ammunition isn't hard to make either. You have to remember that personal firearms are more than 700 years old, and that they are extremely simple in theory and function.

Unless you can remove a person's ability to manipulate tools or exercise free will, improvised firearms will be readily available.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> This or you can churn out sten guns to the same quality as their WW2 counterparts with a few basic tools and a handful of man hours so crappy dangerous 3d printed gunparts really are not something to get worked up over


Exactly.

Half the case modders and waterblock/LN2 pot makers on OCN could start churning out automatic weapons after a few hours of research.


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## Vagrant Storm

When I was 12 I made gun out of a pen...fired .32 caliber bullets and still works today...probably fired a couple hundred rounds out of it. It is about as accurate as Minnesota Vikings quarterback Christian Ponder throwing a football, but it was probably higher quality than this was.

This is just more "ammo" to be sensationalized for more ground work to ban 3D printers. Do you have any idea how much legos cost these days? It likely is economical to just buy a printer and make your own. If people catch on to that there would be even more copyright violations in the courts. Think of all the little plastic toys that are going into gift wrapping right now...a lot of them probably could have been printed for a fraction of the cost (not including the cost of the printer though). That is what this is really about...and it isn't just about toys. 25 years from now I can even see car tires getting printed in my garage. There have already been advancements into different types of materials. This is going to explode and if the corporations don't get governments on their side now it might be a hard fight for them in the future.

So don't any of you dare start to worry about criminals printing guns...criminals are the one group of people who never have any trouble getting guns. They aren't going to mess around with this when they have guys in the alleys trying to sell guns to them. In fact you shouldn't even worry about guns period. Even if you banned guns and all the 3D printers...the criminals would still have them. If they didn't, they'd break out the cans of pineapple to commit their crimes with. A weapon is a weapon.


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## zooterboy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aesir*
> 
> I like how worried some people are getting. *Gun's are obviously more dangerous than people*, but it seems that the reason someone would want this is not because they can get a cheap gun, because you can already get a murder ready gun for <$100 legally. The true goal if I had to guess is to convert your average $800 AR-15 into a full auto M16 and bypass having to get a class 3 FFL licence to legally get one that wasn't made before the 1986 automatic weapons ban in the US.
> But if the possibility that some schmuck is going to build himself an automatic M16 is going to ban 3D printing, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore. You can easily file down the sear pin to get a free automatic, which gangbangers already do, and the world didn't end because crime rates are at their lowest rate since WWII.
> I for one can't wait for a useful high resolution affordable 3D printer, making custom brackets and enclosures would be sick.


Guns aren't dangerous in the slightest. It's people that are dangerous, guns are merely tools to carry out a person's will. When will people learn this?


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## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> When I was 12 I made gun out of a pen...fired .32 caliber bullets and still works today...probably fired a couple hundred rounds out of it. It is about as accurate as Minnesota Vikings quarterback Christian Ponder throwing a football, but it was probably higher quality than this was.


Terrorist! Making an IPD (Improvied Propellant Device)









You could always just fill tennis balls with different combustable substances and chuck them around... or a classic molotov cocktail









Like others have said, there's many more ways to make improved weapons, or weapons in general... anyone remember the OKC Bombing... what a load of poo ...(out before pun police slap me)


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## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> When I was 12 I made gun out of a pen...fired .32 caliber bullets and still works today...probably fired a couple hundred rounds out of it. It is about as accurate as Minnesota Vikings quarterback Christian Ponder throwing a football, but it was probably higher quality than this was.
> This is just more "ammo" to be sensationalized for more ground work to ban 3D printers. Do you have any idea how much legos cost these days? It likely is economical to just buy a printer and make your own. If people catch on to that there would be even more copyright violations in the courts. Think of all the little plastic toys that are going into gift wrapping right now...a lot of them probably could have been printed for a fraction of the cost (not including the cost of the printer though). That is what this is really about...and it isn't just about toys. 25 years from now I can even see car tires getting printed in my garage. There have already been advancements into different types of materials. This is going to explode and if the corporations don't get governments on their side now it might be a hard fight for them in the future.
> So don't any of you dare start to worry about criminals printing guns...criminals are the one group of people who never have any trouble getting guns. They aren't going to mess around with this when they have guys in the alleys trying to sell guns to them. In fact you shouldn't even worry about guns period. Even if you banned guns and all the 3D printers...the criminals would still have them. If they didn't, they'd break out the cans of pineapple to commit their crimes with. A weapon is a weapon.


I agree whole heartedly.

However, as often as not, hysteria will trump reason, and people will sell themselves out to thinly veiled exploiters who claim to offer protection.


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## Homeles

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Just because there are laws PERIOD doesn't mean that people will OBEY THEM. See definition: Criminal


Martin Luther King Jr. was a criminal. What's your point? Lawmakers can come up with some stupid crap.
Quote:


> And just for the record, I can make lower for an AR15 (or just about any other METALIC part for a gun ... including an assembly for an Auto Sear, to turn an AR-15 into a FULLY AUTOMATIC weapon in about an hour and with about $1000 worth of metal working machines ... ALL of which I already own). So the notion that someone might ignore EXISTING LAW and hand manufacture something that takes a specialized machine, doesn't really phase me in the least.


"For the record," I'm not even against this. It's just that you and just about everyone else has an incredibly shortsighted view of this. Yes, right now it isn't a viable replacement or even makeshift substitute for established methods of gun manufacture. But someday it very well could be.

Everybody is circlejerking over the fact that it isn't viable today. But do you all really think that this is all 3D printing will ever amount to? I doubt you do, so what's your guys' point?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Maybe I don't know how to think like a criminal, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to print dozens or hundreds of guns unless they wanted to sell them. And selling without a firearms dealer license means black market.


Gangs, revolutions, other types of anti-establishment groups.


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## Cheezman

You guys act as if selling printed guns is some how a legal loop hole.

It's not.

Get caught with _any_ unregistered firearms that you can't prove _you made_, you'll face felony gun charges.


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## SpankyMcFlych

Someone raised a good point earlier in the thread. Why are all these 3d printer made gun stories popping up? Who cares. Anyone anywhere can make any sort of improvised weapon out of almost anything. That's what we do. We're humans.

I'd be much more impressed by a story about someone printing their own lego. These stories seem to be more about using the hysteria surrounding guns as a tool to give 3d printers a bad rep.


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## Blameless

On the topic of the technology and science behind this, which ironically hasn't been brought up yet, we have once again learned that cheap plastic is not as strong as the same thickness of steel...

So, instead of making a 1:1 copy of steel parts with your 3D printers, it may be a good idea to increase the thickness of the material around stress points, so they don't fail catastrophically.


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## Dronac

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DayoftheGreek*
> 
> Make an entire AK-47 (almost) out of a shovel!
> http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!


That thread was glorious. Thank you good sir.


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## dzalias

I'm actually impressed.


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## Buzzin92

People arguing that it's harder to get a 3d printer than it is to get firearms have no idea...

YOU or anyone for that matter, can easily build your own 3D printer for very low costs.

Take RepRap for instance, there's a guide to building a 3D printer: http://reprapbook.appspot.com/

http://www.webpronews.com/build-your-own-3d-printer-for-under-800-2012-09


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## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Homeles*
> 
> Everybody is circlejerking over the fact that it isn't viable today. But do you all really think that this is all 3D printing will ever amount to? I doubt you do, so what's your guys' point?


Don't quote me when you say that. I never said that it wouldn't EVENTUALLY be viable to make parts. I'm not against making gun parts either.

I'm just setting all the paranoid people who think that making gun parts ... or anything for that matter ... that can be used as a weapon (or growing their own pot or selling their body for sex) is somehow a "new thing" and that any technology that makes it possible is suddenly going to cause an explosion of people to make/do these things.

As I and others who know which end of a gun is which have already said ... making parts in your garage is nothing new. There are already laws on the books ... dating as far back as the 1800's ... that regulate such actions. To think that suddenly everyone will be running around with AK-47 just because of this "new technology" is laughable at best.

You can make a much more reliable and deadly weapon with a drill press and lathe than a 3D printer.

3D printing is awesome. It has it's applications. It will most likely only get better and more advanced as the years go on. As it is, 3D Printers have come a long way in the 30 years that they have been in existence, I'm sure they will only get more advanced.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buzzin92*
> 
> People arguing that it's harder to get a 3d printer than it is to get firearms have no idea...
> YOU or anyone for that matter, can easily build your own 3D printer for very low costs.
> Take RepRap for instance, there's a guide to building a 3D printer: http://reprapbook.appspot.com/
> http://www.webpronews.com/build-your-own-3d-printer-for-under-800-2012-09


Even the RepRap is more expensive than whole categories of firearms, at least in places that already have firearms, like Earth.

On other planets, it would be a toss up between making an automatic firearm from scratch and building a RepRap.


----------



## Buzzin92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> Even the RepRap is more expensive than whole categories of firearms, at least in places that already have firearms, like Earth.
> On other planets, it would be a toss up between making an automatic firearm from scratch and building a RepRap.


That may be true, but that doesn't stop people from building a printer and then distributing knock-off firearms to low lifers though.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buzzin92*
> 
> That may be true, but that doesn't stop people from building a printer and then distributing knock-off firearms to low lifers though.


Actually, I think you could probably buy a manufactured printer for less then the cost of the stuff to build one...there are some for around $500 or so these days. I don't think their quality is that great though...but likely higher quality then most people could build in their garages.

However, I think you are missing the main point. They don't need a 3D printer. Some one can go and buy machining tools and start illegally making guns by the thousands if they wanted too as well. They don't because it is so much easier to just steal or buy them. The same will hold true for 3D printers. They won't use them when they can get them cheaper and easier...not to mention they would be professionally made and advertised in magazines so low lifes will pay more for them.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buzzin92*
> 
> That may be true, but that doesn't stop people from building a printer and then distributing knock-off firearms to low lifers though.


You act as if anything other than the possibility of long prison terms stops anyone with a CNC Bridgeport from doing the same thing.


----------



## PositiveKarma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jprovido*
> 
> DIY guns? scary


How so? People make guns every day. You'd be surprised. It's nothing that isn't happening right now anyways, just a different way to achieve the same result.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PositiveKarma*
> 
> How so? People make guns every day. You'd be surprised. It's nothing that isn't happening right now anyways, just a different way to achieve the same result.


Zip Gun 101 ...


----------



## NateST

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily. This would bypass every check put in place to stop certain people gaining access to them.


True they would have "easier access", but criminals can get guns fairly easy without a 3D printer anyway.


----------



## DayoftheGreek

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Buzzin92*
> 
> People arguing that it's harder to get a 3d printer than it is to get firearms have no idea...
> YOU or anyone for that matter, can easily build your own 3D printer for very low costs.
> Take RepRap for instance, there's a guide to building a 3D printer: http://reprapbook.appspot.com/
> http://www.webpronews.com/build-your-own-3d-printer-for-under-800-2012-09


Yeah but at least here in America (in the fun states







), I can be in and out of a Wal-Mart in less than 30 minutes with a rifle/shotgun and a hundred rounds of ammunition for close to $400. Heck, if you wanted a .22, you could have a rifle and 1000 rounds of ammo for closer to $200 or $300.

No 3 week lead time on stepper motors, no weeks of calibration prints, no firmware issues with arduino boards, no fiddling in CAD, and no end result that only lasts 6 shots.

Even if the 3D printer parts were completely free it's still easier for me to get a firearm elsewhere. Of course this is a completely different story if you have a criminal record or a mental issue. Or if you don't live in America. It's interesting to read the reaction of some of the British posters here because the gun culture is so different.


----------



## Crazy9000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DayoftheGreek*
> 
> Even if the 3D printer parts were completely free it's still easier for me to get a firearm elsewhere. Of course this is a completely different story if you have a criminal record or a mental issue.


Or are a felon. Either way it's tons easier to just buy one illegally. Same goes for the UK which have less gun rights; it's still easier to get one illegally then to do this.

Until the day a 12 year old can print one without his parents knowing, nothing changes.


----------



## SectorNine50

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily. This would bypass every check put in place to stop certain people gaining access to them.


People bypass checks already.

I seriously doubt that 3D printing will cause a rise in violent crime. People that want to commit a violent crime are going to find a way to commit a violent crime. No matter what "checks" you put in their way.

Bring on the 3D printers!


----------



## CM MR HAF

It seems the people who are most suprised and outraged that making firearms is even possible are those who live in places where firearms are illegal.

Ironically where firearms are illegal, it is not the criminal who is most interested in 3D printing a firearm because they already have access to these firearms. It is the hobbyist citizen, who in both fear and envy, ponders the thought of anyone 3D printing a firearm.

Where firearms are legal, those who wish to own them go through background checks and legally buy them. Those who do not wish own them don't. As long as firearms are legal in a place, 3D printing of firearm and firearm parts in that place is an insignificant issue.


----------



## dontpwnmebro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CM MR HAF*
> 
> It seems the people who are most suprised and outraged that making firearms is even possible are those who live in places where firearms are illegal.
> Ironically where firearms are illegal, it is not the criminal who is most interested in 3D printing a firearm because they already have access to these firearms. It is the hobbyist citizen, who in both fear and envy, ponders the thought of anyone 3D printing a firearm.
> Where firearms are legal, those who wish to own them go through background checks and legally buy them. Those who do not wish own them to don't. As long as firearms are legal in a place, 3D printing of firearm and firearm parts in that place is an insignificant issue.


yea, this isn't even that much of a big deal to gun owners unless they are those types that swear undying loyalty to wood and bolt action hunting rifles.


----------



## twalsh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dontpwnmebro*
> 
> yea, this isn't even that much of a big deal to gun owners unless they are those types that swear undying loyalty to wood and bolt action hunting rifles.


Hah I can see it now! These new hunters and their extremely light weight weight resin rifles really piss me off! Those weapons have no soul! I love my hand fashioned wood stock.


----------



## darkstar585

Great, I cannot wait for the day I see a team of spec ops in the heat of battle grouped around a printer scratching their heads saying "I sent it to the printer! why has it not printed?!? And what the hell does that red flashing light mean??"

"Have you switched it off and on again, sir?"


----------



## Cakewalk_S

The gun probably broke because the printer was probably an HP....


----------



## Art Vanelay

Making a lower receiver with a 3d printer is not very impressive; they sometimes make those out of plastic already. The upper and the barrel are the parts that actually need to be extremely strong.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> they sometimes make those out of plastic already


This is true, but they are usually designed that way from the ground up and are shaped in such a away that the weaker material can take the strain.

This thing looks like they just used the plan for the metal receiver and changed little but the material.


----------



## Xaero252

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> So part of a gun is printed unsuccsefully. Kinda makes me think nothing at all.
> Any would e perp still has to come up with ammo and the rest...
> Take a second mortgage to buy a 3d printer in order to make a unreliable gun part or grab a kitchen knife?
> The funny thing is that the #d printer is treated like a magical device with which you can make stuff. Where the making of stuff is the important thing. Banning 3d printers because you can make barely functioning parts with them is as stupid is as banning rocks because you can bash it against another rock and make em smaller and easier to throw. (unless you have flint which as far as i know is worse than WMD's)
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.


I'm thinking more along the lines of organized criminal groups and people looking to murder without association.
Imagine this situation:
Someone relatively wealthy via dealing in arms and or drugs purchases a 3d printer under the table and downloads the schematic at the local public library. Then produces many of these temporary use weapons that have no serial numbers, and theorhetically no traceable barrel signature (given they are able to eventually craft a barrel as well) The weapon won't be very accurate, but it will still be deadly. Now, instead of having to have a large amount of money to pay for a weapon who has never been fired whose serial numbers have been scraped - you can simply buy a disposable, kill your family members and loved ones because your life sucks and get away with it. In fact you could probably take the used weapon back to the guy you bought it from and he would be more than willing to recycle it for you. Even worse, gang members and teenagers, and people with existing criminal records would have little to no problems getting their hands on these. And it circumvents the firearms manufacturing regulations, there are no serial numbers or documentation saying these weapons exist. This is a nightmare from a law enforcement perspective.


----------



## Skiivari

I don't think you can make a gun out of plastic. It's plastic.
Cool idea and stuff though


----------



## mk16

Wow the level of stupid here is off the charts. Who cares if it can last through a whole mag it can fire 6 rounds and that's enough to kill. Plus the people that made this have the download on their site so, anyone right now could print off a whole bunch and go do a lot of bad.


----------



## Cheezman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mk16*
> 
> Wow the level of stupid here is off the charts. Who cares if it can last through a whole mag it can fire 6 rounds and that's enough to kill. Plus the people that made this have the download on their site so, anyone right now could print off a whole bunch and go do a lot of bad.


They can print out a bunch, assuming they have a 3D printer, and complete AR15 uppers....

or they could just get illegal AR15 lowers to go with their AR15 upper receiver assemblies that they must already have.

Plastic guns already exist, most of which are easily available to the public in some variation:


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xaero252*
> 
> I'm thinking more along the lines of organized criminal groups and people looking to murder without association.
> Imagine this situation:
> Someone relatively wealthy via dealing in arms and or drugs purchases a 3d printer under the table and downloads the schematic at the local public library. Then produces many of these temporary use weapons that have no serial numbers, and theorhetically no traceable barrel signature (given they are able to eventually craft a barrel as well) The weapon won't be very accurate, but it will still be deadly. Now, instead of having to have a large amount of money to pay for a weapon who has never been fired whose serial numbers have been scraped - you can simply buy a disposable, kill your family members and loved ones because your life sucks and get away with it. In fact you could probably take the used weapon back to the guy you bought it from and he would be more than willing to recycle it for you. Even worse, gang members and teenagers, and people with existing criminal records would have little to no problems getting their hands on these. And it circumvents the firearms manufacturing regulations, there are no serial numbers or documentation saying these weapons exist. This is a nightmare from a law enforcement perspective.


This is an absurd and needlessly convoluted fantasy scenario. It might make a good comic book story, after you close the gaping plot holes.

Literally _nothing_ you mention here is made any easier by 3D printing firearms.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skiivari*
> 
> I don't think you can make a gun out of plastic. It's plastic.


Ever hear of Glock?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mk16*
> 
> Wow the level of stupid here is off the charts. Who cares if it can last through a whole mag it can fire 6 rounds and that's enough to kill. Plus the people that made this have the download on their site so, anyone right now could print off a whole bunch and go do a lot of bad.


Or they could just buy a dozen different guns, and throw each one away after a crime.

Would cost less than the printer, wouldn't be any more illegal than printing off firearms to use for crime.


----------



## Crazy9000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xaero252*
> 
> I'm thinking more along the lines of organized criminal groups and people looking to murder without association.
> Imagine this situation:
> Someone relatively wealthy via dealing in arms and or drugs purchases a 3d printer under the table and downloads the schematic at the local public library. Then produces many of these temporary use weapons that have no serial numbers, and theorhetically no traceable barrel signature (given they are able to eventually craft a barrel as well) The weapon won't be very accurate, but it will still be deadly. Now, instead of having to have a large amount of money to pay for a weapon who has never been fired whose serial numbers have been scraped - you can simply buy a disposable, kill your family members and loved ones because your life sucks and get away with it. In fact you could probably take the used weapon back to the guy you bought it from and he would be more than willing to recycle it for you. Even worse, gang members and teenagers, and people with existing criminal records would have little to no problems getting their hands on these. And it circumvents the firearms manufacturing regulations, there are no serial numbers or documentation saying these weapons exist. This is a nightmare from a law enforcement perspective.


The whole argument falls apart since the same individual could just buy a CNC and make guns that would last fine and still not have serial numbers. Hell he could even put plastic in it if he wanted. Thus, 3d printers wont change anything from how it is currently.

You can get a desktop CNC for about 2k, small lathe and a drill press would be reasonable as well.


----------



## Wonky Sausage

Regular printers can print out step by instructions on how to make a gun with a cheap used CNC; better ban printers while we're at it.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> The whole argument falls apart since the same individual could just buy a CNC and make guns that would last fine and still not have serial numbers. Hell he could even put plastic in it if he wanted. Thus, 3d printers wont change anything from how it is currently.
> You can get a desktop CNC for about 2k, small lathe and a drill press would be reasonable as well.


The whole argument falls apart without a CNC machine.

Parts can be swapped between weapons and/or modified to produce different results in ballistics tests. Serial numbers can be stamped over (just filing them off is a much less reliable way of obscuring it). Weapons cheap enough to be disposable are readily available, and if you have even the vaguest level of foresight in destroying or disposing of a firearm, it's never going to be found, unless you are caught before or during the crime you were committing with it, in which case it doesn't matter.


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xaero252*
> 
> I'm thinking more along the lines of organized criminal groups and people looking to murder without association.
> Imagine this situation:
> Someone relatively wealthy via dealing in arms and or drugs purchases a 3d printer under the table and downloads the schematic at the local public library. Then produces many of these temporary use weapons that have no serial numbers, and theorhetically no traceable barrel signature (given they are able to eventually craft a barrel as well) The weapon won't be very accurate, but it will still be deadly. Now, instead of having to have a large amount of money to pay for a weapon who has never been fired whose serial numbers have been scraped - you can simply buy a disposable, kill your family members and loved ones because your life sucks and get away with it. In fact you could probably take the used weapon back to the guy you bought it from and he would be more than willing to recycle it for you. Even worse, gang members and teenagers, and people with existing criminal records would have little to no problems getting their hands on these. And it circumvents the firearms manufacturing regulations, there are no serial numbers or documentation saying these weapons exist. This is a nightmare from a law enforcement perspective.


almost like people can't already do this with over the counter chemicals and kitchen knives... blow up your neighbors, stab your spouse... you can tell it's a knife... you can tell they were blown up. From there comes... *GASP* investigation. It's no different then how they'd been tracking people long before everything had a serial number. I could make a pen-bomb with a shaped charge just powerful enough to kill or maim someone with no traces. It's not 'that' hard, and if you really want someone dead, you'll probably take the effort to do it right. Crimes of passion don't count.

The 'danger' posed by this is still no worse than asking a friend with shaky/low morals and a CNC to make the same for you. Or... just filing off the serial number or using acid to obscure traceable details. There are a ton of ways to do what you are saying with already existing full metal/composite guns. Disassemble your gun and take it to a scraper with a blast furnace... gun gone. It's notable easier if it's a plastic resin, but still...

Of course, we could just go full totalitarian on this. Ban 3D printers and CNC machines unless they have state/fedarlly mandated tracking and reporting technology to report each time the product is used and what pattern was processed.

OR we could be reasonable and rational and ackonwledge the extreme minority of actual criminals interested in thiswill just stick with existing technology and methods.

Now, a concern that jut came to mind... i'm admittedly NOT knowledgeable on how to fill these printers and what resins are used... but I wonder if it would be possible to mold custom C4 charges? Make someone's new cell phone cover case out of C4 and have a flange linked to the charge port. They plug it in to charge... passing electric current detonates phone. I think I've watched too many movies lol.


----------



## BulletSponge

Let's just ban electricity and those members quaking in their boots over this will be able to sleep peacefully again.


----------



## Cheezman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> They plug it in to charge... passing electric current detonates phone. I think I've watched too many movies lol.


Wouldn't be enough current to set off the blasting cap.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> Now, a concern that jut came to mind... i'm admittedly NOT knowledgeable on how to fill these printers and what resins are used... but I wonder if it would be possible to mold custom C4 charges? Make someone's new cell phone cover case out of C4 and have a flange linked to the charge port. They plug it in to charge... passing electric current detonates phone. I think I've watched too many movies lol.


Electricity doesn't detonate C4 (at least not anything short of a lightning bolt), a detonator made of a primary explosive does. Also, most plastic explosives are pretty mailable. It would be very difficult to make a phone out of one that would fool it's owner. You could just replace the battery with an ounce of explosive or so (which would make the phone appear dead, inspiring most to try to charge it), and if it had an integrated detonator and capacitor, that could hypothetically set it off if it was plugged in (or very shortly after).

Still, sounds like a lot of work for nothing...a Rube Goldberg machine of murder. Just use a frickin rock.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Not really. A 3D printer is harder to get than a gun. Especially if you live in a city where there's any kind of black market.


No it's not.

I have a CCW and am OMW to applying for a class 3 FFL...I own a 3D printer.

Takes 2 weeks to get a gun, often less if you're not required to own a permit...In which, if you have a permit, you can walk in-walk out.

Same goes for most 3D printers...While it hasn't mainstreamed yet, I can get a 3D printer (industrial) for the same price of a quality AICS .338...

In reality, getting off 1 successful shot, let alone 6...Made this a success for the sheer fact: 1 shot, 1 kill.

Beyond that, there are MANY guns that exist today without serial #'s...MANY and I'm not talking about filed off serials, either...Legitimate prototypes that never made production...Are an INCREDIBLE amount of bolt actions without serials...









What this actually does is inform those that are banned from owning guns that they can make a lower.

Don't need anything to buy an upper but, you have to register a lower...


----------



## kpriess

Print, kill, melt the evidence..

Perfect murder..


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> Electricity doesn't detonate C4 (at least not anything short of a lightning bolt), a detonator made of a primary explosive does. Also, most plastic explosives are pretty mailable. It would be very difficult to make a phone out of one that would fool it's owner. You could just replace the battery with an ounce of explosive or so (which would make the phone appear dead, inspiring most to try to charge it), and if it had an integrated detonator and capacitor, that could hypothetically set it off if it was plugged in (or very shortly after).
> Still, sounds like a lot of work for nothing...a Rube Goldberg machine of murder. Just use a frickin rock.


I thought enough current passing through would eventually cause a reaction? And I wasn't talking about replacing the phone, just the phone cover using a 3D printer to actually print the plastic explosive into the correct shape. I know a blasting cap will do the trick, in which case you can just fill their stero receiver with C4 and rig a blasting cap in there lol. Not the point here, I was just letting my mind wander.

My point was, this whole 'fear the 3D printed guns' thing is silly, and most people here know it.

Careful using that rock though... it may have an RFID in it that reports activity if it exceeds a certain velocity... like striking a person with it. You'll have the hard rock police on you in a minute


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> My point was, this whole 'fear the 3D printed guns' thing is silly, and most people here know it.
> Careful using that rock though... it may have an RFID in it that reports activity if it exceeds a certain velocity... like striking a person with it. You'll have the hard rock police on you in a minute


It's actually not silly.

You don't need a permit or anything to purchase an upper...In fact, there are several stores that don't even log individual's payments.

This is a big deal because the only part of a precision weapon that really matters...Well, I don't want to have this discussion over OCN but, this is a really, really big deal for the sheer fact of what can NOW be accomplished invisibly.

This is a huge deal and should be taken very seriously.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xaero252*
> 
> I'm thinking more along the lines of organized criminal groups and people looking to murder without association.
> Imagine this situation:
> Someone relatively wealthy via dealing in arms and or drugs purchases a 3d printer under the table and downloads the schematic at the local public library. Then produces many of these temporary use weapons that have no serial numbers, and theorhetically no traceable barrel signature (given they are able to eventually craft a barrel as well) The weapon won't be very accurate, but it will still be deadly. Now, instead of having to have a large amount of money to pay for a weapon who has never been fired whose serial numbers have been scraped - you can simply buy a disposable, kill your family members and loved ones because your life sucks and get away with it. In fact you could probably take the used weapon back to the guy you bought it from and he would be more than willing to recycle it for you. Even worse, gang members and teenagers, and people with existing criminal records would have little to no problems getting their hands on these. And it circumvents the firearms manufacturing regulations, there are no serial numbers or documentation saying these weapons exist. This is a nightmare from a law enforcement perspective.


You obviously don't know the first thing about ballistics, firearms, or forensic science.

This is the LOWER RECEIVER of a weapon. There are very little moving parts there, but more importantly, this thing doesn't have to withstand the IMMENSE PRESSURE that a round generates to push a bullet down the barrel at high speed.

It's not like they are making a barrel, receiver, or even firing pin and can change the lands and grooves on a 3D Printed barrel, thus preventing the police from linking a fired bullet to a specific barrel ... or even a firing pin or ejector mechanism to a spend shell casing found a the scene.

Having a custom lower receiver does NOTHING to either PREVENT crime OR to help evade police identification AFTER the crime was committed.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> No it's not.
> 
> I have a CCW and am OMW to applying for a class 3 FFL...I own a 3D printer.


How much money/time did it get you to buy or build your 3D printer?

Cause I could steal a firearm from one of my neighbors with maybe 10 minutes of notice, or buy one from a shady buddy or an auction for less than the price of a big lunch.

I can confidently say that if I were going to get a 3D printer and a new firearm, it would be less costly for me to get the latter.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Takes 2 weeks to get a gun, often less if you're not required to own a permit...In which, if you have a permit, you can walk in-walk out.


When people refer to "black market" firearms, they probably don't mean ones obtained through legal channels.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> In reality, getting off 1 successful shot, let alone 6...Made this a success for the sheer fact: 1 shot, 1 kill.


In reality, the vast majority of gunshot wounds are not fatal, so equating one shot with one kill, even if you hit (which is itself uncertain), is extremely optimistic.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Having a custom lower receiver does NOTHING to either PREVENT crime OR to help evade police identification AFTER the crime was committed.


In all fairness, I don't think he was referring to just printing lower receivers, but entire weapons, when that becomes viable.


----------



## airbozo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> No it's not.
> I have a CCW and am OMW to applying for a class 3 FFL...I own a 3D printer.
> Takes 2 weeks to get a gun, often less if you're not required to own a permit...In which, if you have a permit, you can walk in-walk out.
> Same goes for most 3D printers...While it hasn't mainstreamed yet, I can get a 3D printer (industrial) for the same price of a quality AICS .338...
> In reality, getting off 1 successful shot, let alone 6...Made this a success for the sheer fact: 1 shot, 1 kill.
> Beyond that, there are MANY guns that exist today without serial #'s...MANY and I'm not talking about filed off serials, either...Legitimate prototypes that never made production...Are an INCREDIBLE amount of bolt actions without serials...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What this actually does is inform those that are banned from owning guns that they can make a lower.*
> Don't need anything to buy an upper but, you have to register a lower...


How is this any different from buying a lower or complete weapon from the black market (cheaper than you can buy the printer for)?
It would take me a 15 minute drive and less than $100 to buy a gun.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> It's actually not silly.
> You don't need a permit or anything to purchase an upper...In fact, there are several stores that don't even log individual's payments.
> This is a big deal because the only part of a precision weapon that really matters...Well, I don't want to have this discussion over OCN but, this is a really, really big deal for the sheer fact of what can NOW be accomplished invisibly.
> This is a huge deal and should be taken very seriously.


This is not that big of a deal. You can use a simple cnc machine to make a lower right now for less than the cost of a 3d printer. I would wager that you could take the lower design to many metal fab shops who would make that lower for you with no questions asked.

You guys are freaking out about nothing. The sky is NOT falling chicken little...


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> In all fairness, I don't think he was referring to just printing lower receivers, but entire weapons, when that becomes viable.


That's going to be a LONG LONG way around. 3D Printers have been around for 30 years now. If a lower with no real pressures are breaking after 6 shots, it will be a VERY LONG time before a polymer can be made for a "hobbyist" that can withstand upwards of 38,500 PSI just from a diny little 9mm round, much less 50,000 PSI for a 7.62x51mm NATO round.

As it stands now, it can't be done even with non-3D printer plastic forming.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *airbozo*
> 
> How is this any different from buying a lower or complete weapon from the black market (cheaper than you can buy the printer for)?
> It would take me a 15 minute drive and less than $100 to buy a gun.
> This is not that big of a deal. You can use a simple cnc machine to make a lower right now for less than the cost of a 3d printer. I would wager that you could take the lower design to many metal fab shops who would make that lower for you with no questions asked.
> You guys are freaking out about nothing. The sky is NOT falling chicken little...


...Again, I'm on the road to obtaining my FFL so I see what's capable...And it's a HUGE deal.

I, quite frankly, can't explain over OCN why it's a big deal but, in essence, we just gave more people a means to a "solution" then ever had the means, before.

Actually, metal fab shops have very strict laws in regards to this entire scenario so, I'll disagree.

Let's put it in a way you can all understand...Civilians are restricted from owning certain distance weapons for a reason...These are NOT available on the black market, much less the civilian market...We've essentially just alerted most of them how to easily fab weapons capable of reaching over 1.5miles...

Most of the people in this category aren't gangsters that hold a gun sideways, again, 1 shot; 1 kill.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> This is a big deal because the only part of a precision weapon that really matters...Well, I don't want to have this discussion over OCN but, this is a really, really big deal for the sheer fact of what can NOW be accomplished invisibly.


So the invention of 3D printing is what makes it possible to illegally obtain a firearm without a paper trail?

Pretty sure this has been going on a long, long, time.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> This is a huge deal and should be taken very seriously.


The idea that people who want to commit crimes with the assistance of a firearm, or those who who have been barred from possessing firearms, are going to go out and buy everything except the lower receiver, then get a 3D printer to make the rest of the weapon, _instead of just buying a complete weapon, or the missing receiver, from an illicit source_, is comical.

Path of least resistance, this is not.


----------



## scyy

lol at people falling for the fear mongering. going to a gun show can get you a real working gun with nearly no effort. I mean really people? Come on, most people who would be looking for guns on the black market likely already have the means to get them, this changes nothing, at all.


----------



## seepra

Ban CNC machines because you can CAD yourself all the gun parts and make a fully functional rifle that won't fall apart, then? Hell, they actually use CNC machines to build custom weapons, and nobody makes a big deal out of them.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> So the invention of 3D printing is what makes it possible to illegally obtain a firearm without a paper trail?
> Pretty sure this has been going on a long, long, time.
> The idea that people who want to commit crimes with the assistance of a firearm, or those who who have been barred from possessing firearms, are going to go out and buy everything except the lower receiver, then get a 3D printer to make the rest of the weapon, _instead of just buying a complete weapon, or the missing receiver, from an illicit source_, is comical.
> Path of least resistance, this is not.


See, this just tells me that you don't understand the capabilities of a rifle...Which, to me is comical.

A rifle isn't just some 22lr platform that'll poke a hole in you. A rifle extends to a .408 to a .50cal, to things that can put a hole the size a softball in you from distances that you can't even make out the shooter with the naked eye.

This is the primary reason why I won't elaborate on here but, it's a really big deal, actually.


----------



## scyy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> See, this just tells me that you don't understand the capabilities of a rifle...Which, to me is comical.
> A rifle isn't just some 22lr platform that'll poke a hole in you. A rifle extends to a .408 to a .50cal, to things that can put a hole the size a softball in you from distances that you can't even make out the shooter with the naked eye.
> This is the primary reason why I won't elaborate on here but, it's a really big deal, actually.


It's hilarious how serious you are being.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scyy*
> 
> It's hilarious how serious you are being.


Should see the 3 LE forums I belong to...Even the cops are QQing.

Interesting how LE/Military see the variety of uses for this but, none of you actually do...And yet, 99% of them would never fathom putting their own computers together...Oh, the irony.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> laws in regards to this entire scenario so, I'll disagree.


I think you are under the assumption that laws are always followed.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> These are NOT available on the black market, much less the civilian market...


Everything is available on the black market. No matter what it is, someone entrusted with it has stolen or lost one, and by lost I mean sold.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> We've essentially just alerted most of them how to easily fab weapons capable of reaching over 1.5miles...


As if you couldn't already buy a .50 BMG chambered weapon completely legally in most places that aren't California.

How much gun crime is committed at a range of 1.5 miles?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Most of the people in this category aren't gangsters that hold a gun sideways, again, 1 shot; 1 kill.


Oh so you are talking about professionally trained assassins and/or crazy military/police veterans?

Not that they couldn't get their weapons without 3D printers, but I don't think I'm at any risk from anyone like this, and don't like much of anyone who is. So, where is the problem?


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Next up: Should DVD players be banned for sale because some "overclocker" could take one and make a deadly laser weapon with it ... 10 or 50 years in the future?


----------



## airbozo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> ...Again, I'm on the road to obtaining my FFL so I see what's capable...And it's a HUGE deal.
> I, quite frankly, can't explain over OCN why it's a big deal but, in essence, we just gave more people a means to a "solution" then ever had the means, before.
> Actually, metal fab shops have very strict laws in regards to this entire scenario so, I'll disagree.
> Let's put it in a way you can all understand...Civilians are restricted from owning certain distance weapons for a reason...These are NOT available on the black market, much less the civilian market...We've essentially just alerted most of them how to easily fab weapons capable of reaching over 1.5miles...
> Most of the people in this category aren't gangsters that hold a gun sideways, again, 1 shot; 1 kill.


Yeah yeah, can't talk about it on OCN.. I don't buy that. I've owned firearms and been involved in them for about 35 years now and I call BS. This in no way makes it easier for anyone to make a gun. Not in the slightest.

BTW: Both of the metal fab shops I use for making things for my work would not have any clue if I asked them to cnc me a lower for an AR.

Just about any weapon you want is available on the black market.

...and it will be many many years before the quality and durability of 3d printed parts can be assembled to fire a round 1.5 miles...

McDonnell Douglas was one of the companies to invent these printers back in the 80's and they were deemed a cool idea at the time and were used only for creating a production test part that had to be manufactured in a metal foundry. They are still a long way off from making anything as tough as a lower to a pistol let alone a barrel capable of any accuracy.

It is still easier and cheaper to make one yourself with a couple of simple machines.


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scyy*
> 
> lol at people falling for the fear mongering. going to a gun show can get you a real working gun with nearly no effort. I mean really people? Come on.


I agree... I don't care what's said, this is not some new revelation that guns can be obtained/made illegally. Regulations on gun manufacturing so that CNC shops aren't supposed to do it... so what.. isn't that the point of it being illegal? You aren't supposed to do it lol

The whole '1shot, 1kill' idea is a bit overblown anyways. Especially coming from a 9mm in a gun that is hardly precision material. I see city Police, trained with sidearms, taking several shots to down a target.. not counting misses. So, you have 6 chances to not only HIT your target, but disable/kill it. That's actually kinda rough since it could fail on shot 3 or breakdown and misfire if you're firing rapidly without allowing heat dissipation.

Again... gun's aren't that dangerous compared to many other time proven methods for civilian conflict. Rocks, bottles, knives, hands, feet, baseball bats... all are equally deadly when that is the intended purpose. IF someone wanted one of these for 'nefarious purposes' it would be a premeditated act. This premeditation would also imply thinking through courses of action. With a possible course being the failure of a cheap and unreliable plastic gun... it would be counted out in most cases for something more reliable. In the end, the serial number only matters if the police actually GET the gun. Heck, it's almost winter.. just stab someone with an icicle and the melt the evidence.

I am not in the slightest concerned about this. Our government hands out much more deadly guns daily to police and military personnel, many of which are just as likely to be unstable as a civilian.


----------



## un-midas touch

Fearmongering.


----------



## airbozo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Fearmongering.


Agreed...


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> I think you are under the assumption that laws are always followed.
> Everything is available on the black market. No matter what it is, someone entrusted with it has stolen or lost one, and by lost I mean sold.
> As if you couldn't already buy a .50 BMG chambered weapon completely legally in most places that aren't California.
> How much gun crime is committed at a range of 1.5 miles?
> Oh so you are talking about professionally trained assassins and/or crazy military/police veterans?
> Not that they couldn't get their weapons without 3D printers, but I don't think I'm at any risk from anyone like this, and don't like much of anyone who is. So, where is the problem?


You do realize that anyone can be trained these days...

Much like private flying lessons for the "9/11" terrorists...All you have to do is pay for a precision rifle course.

The .50bmg is actually the most traced weapon in the US, arguably and above/beyond that, no you actually can't. That weapon often requires the permission and fingerprinting from your local cops, as does a .408...But, you guys are the experts so, I bow down to your knowledge.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *airbozo*
> 
> Yeah yeah, can't talk about it on OCN.. I don't buy that. I've owned firearms and been involved in them for about 35 years now and I call BS. This in no way makes it easier for anyone to make a gun. Not in the slightest.
> BTW: Both of the metal fab shops I use for making things for my work would not have any clue if I asked them to cnc me a lower for an AR.
> Just about any weapon you want is available on the black market.
> ...and it will be many many years before the quality and durability of 3d printed parts can be assembled to fire a round 1.5 miles...
> McDonnell Douglas was one of the companies to invent these printers back in the 80's and they were deemed a cool idea at the time and were used only for creating a production test part that had to be manufactured in a metal foundry. They are still a long way off from making anything as tough as a lower to a pistol let alone a barrel capable of any accuracy.
> It is still easier and cheaper to make one yourself with a couple of simple machines.


35 years of guns and you can't comprehend how to make a successful action out of plastic for use on a 50cal? Really?









...Alas, the reasons I wouldn't discuss this here are multiplying.

~ Not fearmongering, I just agree w/the Cops/Military that this is actually a big deal, especially in light of Obama's proposed assault weapon ban...


----------



## WR6133

Got to LOL at the 1 shot 1 kill and the 1.5 mile stuff....... seriously that [email protected] belongs in films and definitely not with a plastic homemade gun! I think your ex military forums must consist of airsoft warriors and hardcore walter mitty's as for LE well they QQ over the length of kitchen knives

Hell even if you made the reciever of a bolt action that could go that far you still need a complete trigger mech, barrel (rifled), bolt assembly..... etc and then the thing will just disintegrate on firing

Now in the time since I last posted a vaguely skilled person could have with basic tools and scrap metal made a working SMG, the idiot with the printer idea would still be waiting for the thing to be delivered while he scratches his head about how to get hold of a rifled barrel.


----------



## AddictedGamer93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> lol. I have a disarmed .50 BMG round on my desk. It is MASSIVE. It could easily be used as a small club.


I have a live 20mm Vulcan round lying on my desk, lol.


----------



## Crazy9000

I work a shift at a machine shop where for at least most of it, nobody else is around... how many other people do you think are in my situation? I mean I wouldn't even need to buy anything but materials, and maybe get a little more experience (first few wouldn't work most likely, but I'd get it eventually).

It's absolutely insane to be worried about this lol


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *airbozo*
> 
> BTW: Both of the metal fab shops I use for making things for my work would not have any clue if I asked them to cnc me a lower for an AR.


This is a good point as well. Many places won't even recognize what they are being asked to produce/deliver, so won't even question it.

It's really hard to ban abstract shapes. It's one thing to say that lower receivers must be registered and sales tracked, it's entirely another to force everyone with access to a CNC machine or a foundry to learn to distinguish a lower receiver from from every other unrestricted object.


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> I work a shift at a machine shop where for at least most of it, nobody else is around... how many other people do you think are in my situation? I mean I wouldn't even need to buy anything but materials, and maybe get a little more experience (first few wouldn't work most likely, but I'd get it eventually).
> It's absolutely insane to be worried about this lol


Whoa whoa WHOA MAN... that's illegal... don't do it or i'm telling!


----------



## Huzzbutt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> You do realize that anyone can be trained these days...
> Much like private flying lessons for the "9/11" terrorists...All you have to do is pay for a precision rifle course.
> The .50bmg is actually the most traced weapon in the US, arguably and above/beyond that, no you actually can't. That weapon often requires the permission and fingerprinting from your local cops, as does a .408...But, you guys are the experts so, I bow down to your knowledge.
> 35 years of guns and you can't comprehend how to make a successful action out of plastic for use on a 50cal? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...Alas, the reasons I wouldn't discuss this here are multiplying.
> ~ Not fearmongering, I just agree w/the Cops/Military that this is actually a big deal, especially in light of Obama's proposed assault weapon ban...


None of your arguments have made much sense, are you sure you're not applying for membership to "feminists for life"?
First let's rule out all crimes of passion, simple enough no ones going to print them selves a .50 cal to kill their spouse in a heated argument.
Secondly, let's rule out anyone who can't acquire ammunition, i doubt that 3d printers will be able to handle explosives.
Now we need that small amount of people with a thorn in their side for high ranking official minus those you can get with an ordinary weapon.
Now remove those who are hoping for martyrdom (essentially all of them)

So we are left with Bruce Willis in the Jackal, while i do understand that your feminist for life standpoint is prolife and as prospective member you feel the need to tell the world how you feel.

But...

Bruce willis will not print a .50cal.
Your whole argument is about as relevant as banning high power magnets and supra conducting materials for fear of Gaussgun attacks.

Ability does not equate to risk. Even though this seems to be a common assumption it is not true.

Risk = chance of negative effect + size of effect.

So all in all with my very scientific Bruce Wills example I would rate this as lower risk than Hinges (imagine all the evil stuff you can do with a hinge and two 4x4s...)


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> The whole '1shot, 1kill' idea is a bit overblown anyways. Especially coming from a 9mm in a gun that is hardly precision material. I see city Police, trained with sidearms, taking several shots to down a target.. not counting misses. So, you have 6 chances to not only HIT your target, but disable/kill it. That's actually kinda rough since it could fail on shot 3 or breakdown and misfire if you're firing rapidly without allowing heat dissipation.


Not to mention ...

Having a weapon that is so fragile that it may blow up after 1 shot or 6 kind of makes it hard to SIGHT IN that weapon. Which of course, will be critical for any weapon that you plan on using to assassinate someone at a range greater than a Zip Gun that can easily be made at a local hardware store for $15.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> Got to LOL at the 1 shot 1 kill and the 1.5 mile stuff....... seriously that [email protected] belongs in films and definitely not with a plastic homemade gun! I think your ex military forums must consist of airsoft warriors and hardcore walter mitty's as for LE well they QQ over the length of kitchen knives
> Hell even if you made the reciever of a bolt action that could go that far you still need a complete trigger mech, barrel (rifled), bolt assembly..... etc and then the thing will just disintegrate on firing
> Now in the time since I last posted a vaguely skilled person could have with basic tools and scrap metal made a working SMG, the idiot with the printer idea would still be waiting for the thing to be delivered while he scratches his head about how to get hold of a rifled barrel.


You do realize that with a .338 the longest kill on record is over 2.5km...And the current record holder on the .50 in Iraq was over 2,800 meters.

In fact, there are some unconfirmed kills from even longer distances.

While I do realize these are trained snipers...It's really not that hard to pay for 5/6 courses and attain a moderate ballistics understanding enough to hit 1.5+km.

Beyond that, you're actually incorrect. I have some polymer billeted and molded receiver lowers that were prototyped and they stand up to my POF308 upper and the KA556. Considering the head pressure of both rifles is much higher than their 7.62//.223 counterparts, again, I vehemently disagree. If made correctly, a plastic action and lower could very well survive.

PS. to acquire an upper, all I had to do was call Midway, could have had one overnighted for $600, not even a license was necessary...Go-Go-USA!

Again, I'm not saying run around and be afraid, the world is coming to an end ~ Not by a long shot.

What I am saying is that for LE/Mil, this is actually a big deal and considering Obama is already on the verge of attempting to ban assault weapons, this doesn't bode well what-so-ever in the community.
Quote:


> Having a weapon that is so fragile that it may blow up after 1 shot or 6 kind of makes it hard to SIGHT IN that weapon. Which of course, will be critical for any weapon that you plan on using to assassinate someone at a range greater than a Zip Gun that can easily be made at a local hardware store for $15.


It won't blow up, worst case scenario is the trigger mechanism fails because of the spring pressure...Which, can be fixed in the long run and bypassed all together...


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> You do realize that anyone can be trained these days...
> Much like private flying lessons for the "9/11" terrorists...All you have to do is pay for a precision rifle course.
> The .50bmg is actually the most traced weapon in the US, arguably and above/beyond that, no you actually can't. That weapon often requires the permission and fingerprinting from your local cops, as does a .408...


And what?

Do you seriously believe another source for lower receivers is going to cause a spike in murders by expert marksmen?

The scenarios you are implying are flatly _absurd_.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> ~ Not fearmongering, I just agree w/the Cops/Military that this is actually a big deal, especially in light of Obama's proposed assault weapon ban...


Absolutely fear-mongering.

If everyone on the planet had Star Trek level replicators that only made untraceable lower receivers for large bore sniper rifles, there would probably be less than a handful of murders with these weapons that otherwise wouldn't have happened, in the next several decades.

Worrying about thing like this is paranoia the likes of which I have rarely encountered, and is no justification at all for any sort of monitoring, restriction, or control of anything.


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> You do realize that with a .338 the longest kill on record is over 2.5km...And the current record holder on the .50 in Iraq was over 2,800 meters.
> In fact, there are some unconfirmed kills from even longer distances.
> While I do realize these are trained snipers...It's really not that hard to pay for 5/6 courses and attain a moderate ballistics understanding enough to hit 1.5+km.
> Beyond that, you're actually incorrect. I have some polymer billeted and molded receiver lowers that were prototyped and they stand up to my POF308 upper and the KA556. Considering the head pressure of both rifles is much higher than their 7.62//.223 counterparts, again, I vehemently disagree. If made correctly, a plastic action and lower could very well survive.
> PS. to acquire an upper, all I had to do was call Midway, could have had one overnighted for $600, not even a license was necessary...Go-Go-USA!
> Again, I'm not saying run around and be afraid, the world is coming to an end ~ Not by a long shot.
> What I am saying is that for LE/Mil, this is actually a big deal and considering Obama is already on the verge of attempting to ban assault weapons, this doesn't bode well what-so-ever in the community.
> It won't blow up, worst case scenario is the pressure de-threads the barrel which changes your head-spacing...Worst case scenario, the bolt won't engage.


so why is it a big deal Obama is trying to REINSTATE the assault weapons ban? It's not his idea or original plan, it was in plan... expired, and he's re-upping it. Bring that into it screams of political bias where it's not needed.

Knowing several police and some SWAT members, as well as numerous military personnel... this is a non-issue. It anything, it's a licensing issue, not a safety one. They aren't concerned about these pseudo-weapons. And if you think paying for courses and learning ballistics will enable you to actually DO what the courses teach you... take them yourself and see. When I was in basic training and after, I saw plenty of people unable to hit even simple targets at range, including several Drill Sargeants. Now, add a few hundred or a thousand meters on that distance and factor in windage and everything else... good luck hitting within 20m of your target on a clear day... 50m on a windy day. Besides, if people were wanting to snipe to kill people, we'd have seen more of it over the years. Maybe it's just me, but people seem perfectly content just grabbing a knife or cheap burner gun and dropping their target the old fashioned way.


----------



## Skiivari

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> Ever hear of Glock?


Yeah, didn't know it was fully made out of plastic


----------



## DesertRat

Looks like it just needs a little reinforcement. Some of the polymer AR15 Lowers had a similar issue. Where it broke is pretty much the only part of an AR15 lower that experienced any real stress during firing.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skiivari*
> 
> Yeah, didn't know it was fully made out of plastic


Almost everything except the barrel, firing pin, and springs.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> And what?
> Do you seriously believe another source for lower receivers is going to cause a spike in murders by expert marksmen?
> The scenarios you are implying are flatly _absurd_.
> Absolutely fear-mongering.
> If everyone on the planet had Star Trek level replicators that only made untraceable lower receivers for large bore sniper rifles, there would probably be less than a handful of murders with these weapons that otherwise wouldn't have happened, in the next several decades.
> Worrying about thing like this is paranoia the likes of which I have rarely encountered, and is no justification at all for any sort of monitoring, restriction, or control of anything.


Didn't say that, what I did say is that, this makes those receivers readily available to those that shouldn't have them.

Anyone can order an upper, you can be a felon and own a weapon. You can be a murderer and legally own a POF.308 upper...

You can be a murderer and also own a 3D-printer...Commercial grade is about 5k...

So, let's say that murderer chooses to mass produce lowers that are untraceable and with a higher quality grade of polymer/plastic reaches success...Clearly this scenario is okay with you because you feel it will never happen.

I on the other hand, applying to be an FFL, have already seen machine shop billeted lowers, AK47 lower/upper assemblies...In fact, it's funny because if you apply to the NYPD they give you a crash course and a rundown of what's out there...Ironically, that little scenario above, has already been attempted.

Again, I'm not saying be afraid, I'm just saying this is a really big deal because mainstreaming this is basically just finding the right plastic.

This isn't something that I went in my garage and made-up...Should see their weapon's cache...People will do whatever they can to get a dangerous firearm...Always have and always will...Why supply them with a home-grown means above/beyond what they're already capable of?


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> You do realize that with a .338 the longest kill on record is over 2.5km...And the current record holder on the .50 in Iraq was over 2,800 meters.
> In fact, there are some unconfirmed kills from even longer distances.
> While I do realize these are trained snipers...It's really not that hard to pay for 5/6 courses and attain a moderate ballistics understanding enough to hit 1.5+km.


You name extreme examples of marksmanship that likely had as much an element of luck as a great shot not to mention they used precision made high quality weapons not home printed plastic parts!

I can tell you now as somebody formerly qualified on the L96 anything much over 800m is HARD and not what a criminal is going to do with the high chance of failure

All this is irrelevent though as nobody with the skill to shoot that far would do anything other than laugh if you handed them a homemade plastic rifle


----------



## u3b3rg33k

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aesir*
> 
> I like how worried some people are getting. Gun's are obviously more dangerous than people, but it seems that the reason someone would want this is not because they can get a cheap gun, because you can already get a murder ready gun for <$100 legally. *The true goal if I had to guess is to convert your average $800 AR-15 into a full auto M16 and bypass having to get a class 3 FFL licence to legally get one that wasn't made before the 1986 automatic weapons ban in the US.*
> But if the possibility that some schmuck is going to build himself an automatic M16 is going to ban 3D printing, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore. *You can easily file down the sear pin to get a free automatic, which gangbangers already do*, and the world didn't end because crime rates are at their lowest rate since WWII.
> I for one can't wait for a useful high resolution affordable 3D printer, making custom brackets and enclosures would be sick.


A: but it's still a felony without the right paperwork, and i'm not willing to risk a long federal prison stay to have a FA M16 illegally.

B: yep.

Honestly I think it's pretty cool (the 3d printer stuff), but I'm gonna hold my breath for the ST:TNG replicator. That's what the cool kids have.


----------



## airbozo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> You do realize that anyone can be trained these days...
> Much like private flying lessons for the "9/11" terrorists...All you have to do is pay for a precision rifle course.
> The .50bmg is actually the most traced weapon in the US, arguably and above/beyond that, no you actually can't. That weapon often requires the permission and fingerprinting from your local cops, as does a .408...But, you guys are the experts so, I bow down to your knowledge.
> *35 years of guns and you can't comprehend how to make a successful action out of plastic for use on a 50cal? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> ...Alas, the reasons I wouldn't discuss this here are multiplying.
> ~ Not fearmongering, I just agree w/the Cops/Military that this is actually a big deal, especially in light of Obama's proposed assault weapon ban...


Has nothing to do with comprehension and more to do with reality.

How does this sound: "I know how to solve the worlds gas crisis, but I can't say anything on this forum"? Sounds like I have a load of BS in my sagging pants...
I'm not saying you don't know your weapons, but step back and read how that sounds.

I had a similar discussion almost a year ago about this exact subject with a dozen or so people including cops, active and retired FBI agents and one secret service agent sitting around a camp fire (Abalone diving). Not one in the group was "worried" about this technology and pointed out the same thing I pointed out concerning how easy it is to make a weapon (even a long range rifle) with the current metal working technology available to _anyone_ with no restrictions. Until that 3d printer can churn out dependable weapons that actually work, it is not even comparable to a fair machine shop in it's abilities. All agreed that the most significant threat to law enforcement were the multitude of guns available to anyone with cash, including those weapons put on the street by our own government.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> You name extreme examples of marksmanship that likely had as much an element of luck as a great shot not to mention they used precision made high quality weapons not home printed plastic parts!
> I can tell you now as somebody formerly qualified on the L96 anything much over 800m is HARD and not what a criminal is going to do with the high chance of failure
> All this is irrelevent though as nobody with the skill to shoot that far would do anything other than laugh if you handed them a homemade plastic rifle


I can hit over a grand...The guys I shoot with can hit over a grand...Unfortunately, the only good range to shoot a grand around my area is upper NH//Maine. Windage a monkey could do...In fact, there are 3 free apps on your phone that'll do the entire calculation for you...3 are paid, do a decent job but, it's that free one that's spot on...Even gives elevation, temp, humidity, over-rotation, bore effect on a 1/10 at yardage...Good stuff.

Also, screw the .50...God gave us the .408 for a reason...Even at that, pop the lapua.

If someone replaced my lower with plastic, there would be no difference in accuracy.

If someone replaced the action, there would be no difference in accuracy.

The only parts that are serial-ed are the action and the lower...Just buy the rest of the gun.

My point is that this method makes mass production possible, it's just a question of finding the right plastic combination.

Also, the reason the gun broke apart was because gas pressure pushing the bolt back cracked the base...It wasn't because of pressure from the round or any other scenario...The plastic they used couldn't handle the abuse...Find the right plastic/polymer combo and BAM, that's it right there, jack.


----------



## Crazy9000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Didn't say that, what I did say is that, this makes those receivers readily available to those that shouldn't have them.
> Anyone can order an upper, you can be a felon and own a weapon. You can be a murderer and legally own a POF.308 upper...
> You can be a murderer and also own a 3D-printer...Commercial grade is about 5k...
> So, let's say that murderer chooses to mass produce lowers that are untraceable and with a higher quality grade of polymer/plastic reaches success...Clearly this scenario is okay with you because you feel it will never happen.
> I on the other hand, applying to be an FFL, have already seen machine shop billeted lowers, AK47 lower/upper assemblies...In fact, it's funny because if you apply to the NYPD they give you a crash course and a rundown of what's out there...Ironically, that little scenario above, has already been attempted.
> Again, I'm not saying be afraid, I'm just saying this is a really big deal because mainstreaming this is basically just finding the right plastic.
> This isn't something that I went in my garage and made-up...Should see their weapon's cache...People will do whatever they can to get a dangerous firearm...Always have and always will...Why supply them with a home-grown means above/beyond what they're already capable of?


What I'm not getting is where you think that a 3d printer is different then a CNC that can do it properly. If you had $5k you could get a CNC that could make the parts... the shop we share a warehouse with sold an old one for scrap that probably would have been able to do it.

The reason hobbiests get 3d printers is because they are quiet and not as messy... and also tend to take up less space. This will not change anything about weapons, unless you make the whole thing out of plastic and smuggle it through metal detectors.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> What I'm not getting is where you think that a 3d printer is different then a CNC that can do it properly. If you had $5k you could get a CNC that could make the parts... the shop we share a warehouse with sold an old one for scrap that probably would have been able to do it.
> The reason hobbiests get 3d printers is because they are quiet and not as messy... and also tend to take up less space. *This will not change anything about weapons, unless you make the whole thing out of plastic and smuggle it through metal detectors*.


Someone's starting to get it...A little bit.


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Someone's starting to get it...A little bit.


Or, they could use the existing smuggling routes that already get tons of weapons where ever they want to go









As far as a metal detector goes, with the millimeter wave scanners, they'd actually see it... so, again, no biggie. And if it were loaded, that would set off metal detectors. Or are we using rubber bullets too?


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Didn't say that, what I did say is that, this makes those receivers readily available to those that shouldn't have them.


They are already readily available.

Because:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> People will do whatever they can to get a dangerous firearm...Always have and always will...


Exactly my point.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Anyone can order an upper, you can be a felon and own a weapon. You can be a murderer and legally own a POF.308 upper...
> You can be a murderer and also own a 3D-printer...Commercial grade is about 5k...


Never doubted any of this.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> So, let's say that murderer chooses to mass produce lowers that are untraceable and with a higher quality grade of polymer/plastic reaches success...Clearly this scenario is okay with you because you feel it will never happen.


I never said it was "okay" with me, nor do I think it will never happen. In fact, I believe it's inevitable.

However, I do not think this will change anything, because other means of acquiring these parts exist without 3D printers. Those who really want them, will have them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Why supply them with a home-grown means above/beyond what they're already capable of?


Why place restrictions on something that won't impede anyone but those with perfectly legal intentions and legitimate uses?

To do this would simply be pissing on the rights and freedoms of the overwhelming majority, while barely discomfiting the tiny, tiny, minority with true malicious intent. It's not trading liberty for security. It's trading liberty away for nothing at all.


----------



## Huzzbutt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I can hit over a grand...The guys I shoot with can hit over a grand...Unfortunately, the only good range to shoot a grand around my area is upper NH//Maine. Windage a monkey could do...In fact, there are 3 free apps on your phone that'll do the entire calculation for you...3 are paid, do a decent job but, it's that free one that's spot on...Even gives elevation, temp, humidity, over-rotation, bore effect on a 1/10 at yardage...Good stuff.
> Also, screw the .50...God gave us the .408 for a reason...Even at that, pop the lapua.
> If someone replaced my lower with plastic, there would be no difference in accuracy.
> If someone replaced the action, there would be no difference in accuracy.
> The only parts that are serial-ed are the action and the lower...Just buy the rest of the gun.
> My point is that this method makes mass production possible, it's just a question of finding the right plastic combination.
> Also, the reason the gun broke apart was because gas pressure pushing the bolt back cracked the base...It wasn't because of pressure from the round or any other scenario...The plastic they used couldn't handle the abuse...Find the right plastic/polymer combo and BAM, that's it right there, jack.


gnnnggh....

like listening to a Nasa director trying to ban skateboard ramps for fear of the miniscule impossibility that they'd send kids flying high enough to endanger ISS


----------



## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> The reason hobbiests get 3d printers is because they are quiet and not as messy... and also tend to take up less space. This will not change anything about weapons, unless you make the whole thing out of plastic and smuggle it through metal detectors.


This. Even then 3D printers don't change much. If I wanted to be clever and commit a crime with a short-range single-shot weapon that doesn't set off metal detectors, I could probably make something out of a small PVC pipe, a bunch of rubber bands, and a wooden skewer.

And to Masked, hate to say it but you just sound like a conspiracy theory nut. The average criminal is going to buy a cheap used/stolen weapon from a black market dealer instead of going through all the effort to manufacture a gun using a 3D printer. And the guys who are smart/motivated/rich enough to manufacture their own weapons wouldn't be hindered one bit by banning 3D printers.

Most gun crimes are committed with the cheapest or commonest weapons available, which tend to fall under 9x19 Parabellum handguns, maybe .22 LR, or 7.62x39mm (AK). All this talk about 1.5 km shots has no bearings on real criminal activity (generally burglary). I think you're talking about super-secret Cold War and James Bond stuff.

This whole thread reminds me of the huge hissy fit people used to throw about the Barrett .50 BMG sniper rifle and how it needs to be banned because of its criminal potential. This despite the fact that that weapon has never been used in a crime, and it costs around $10,000. Which is the more likely weapon for your average convenience store robbery? A $10,000 military sniper rifle with low production quantities, or any $100 mass-produced 9mm handgun?


----------



## u3b3rg33k

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Someone's starting to get it...A little bit.


find me a plastic barrel that can handle, well anything. Even these fail catastrophically with too much oxidizer and a potato:


----------



## Imglidinhere

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> So part of a gun is printed unsuccsefully. Kinda makes me think nothing at all.
> Any would e perp still has to come up with ammo and the rest...
> Take a second mortgage to buy a 3d printer in order to make a unreliable gun part or grab a kitchen knife?
> The funny thing is that the #d printer is treated like a magical device with which you can make stuff. Where the making of stuff is the important thing. Banning 3d printers because you can make barely functioning parts with them is as stupid is as banning rocks because you can bash it against another rock and make em smaller and easier to throw. (unless you have flint which as far as i know is worse than WMD's)
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.


You missed the point entirely...


----------



## Crazy9000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Someone's starting to get it...A little bit.


What's stopping you from machining plastic on the CNC's that have been around for years? I know we've made plastic parts before.


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I can hit over a grand...The guys I shoot with can hit over a grand...Unfortunately, the only good range to shoot a grand around my area is upper NH//Maine. Windage a monkey could do...In fact, there are 3 free apps on your phone that'll do the entire calculation for you...3 are paid, do a decent job but, it's that free one that's spot on...Even gives elevation, temp, humidity, over-rotation, bore effect on a 1/10 at yardage...Good stuff.
> Also, screw the .50...God gave us the .408 for a reason...Even at that, pop the lapua.
> If someone replaced my lower with plastic, there would be no difference in accuracy.
> If someone replaced the action, there would be no difference in accuracy.
> The only parts that are serial-ed are the action and the lower...Just buy the rest of the gun.
> My point is that this method makes mass production possible, it's just a question of finding the right plastic combination.
> Also, the reason the gun broke apart was because gas pressure pushing the bolt back cracked the base...It wasn't because of pressure from the round or any other scenario...The plastic they used couldn't handle the abuse...Find the right plastic/polymer combo and BAM, that's it right there, jack.


1 - You dont whip out an Iphone in real life to figure things out. Shooting 1KM on a range is not remotely alike doing it after 2 days without sleep, while dodging camel spiders and being shot at.

2 - If somebody replaced your lower and action with the plastic used in the pistol in question here it would break... half a rifle would then definitely be detrimental to your accuracy.

3 - Yeah I agree your right if the right material is found this could be more news worthy though still not significant, its easier, more reliable and cheaper and likely always will be to get a black market weapon than print your own, right now its easier to make one from metal with basic tools. All plastic guns are a scaremonger BS anyone remember the "EVIL" Glock17 that could pass through airports? That was sensationalised to the point people took it as truth despite it being utterly false.... there are parts of a weapon that cant be plastic.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Someone's starting to get it...A little bit.


I sure as hell hope not.

People that "get it" in the sense you mean are the reason why the rest of us can't have nice things, or have to jump through silly hoops for them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> What's stopping you from machining plastic on the CNC's that have been around for years? I know we've made plastic parts before.


Nothing.

There is also nothing preventing you from casting these parts and finishing them by hand, from making them out of sheet metal, or any number of other methods.

3D printers are just the next scapegoat for paranoid fools trying to tell everyone else what they can and cannot do.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> 3D printers are just the next scapegoat for paranoid fools trying to tell everyone else what they can and cannot do.


/thread


----------



## dizzy4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_metal_laser_sintering

They just used the wrong printer. When the technology scales down and becomes less expensive, this could be a reality. Still, DLMS or SLS could produce a printed firearm today.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> And to Masked, hate to say it but you just sound like a conspiracy theory nut. The average criminal is going to buy a cheap used/stolen weapon from a black market dealer instead of going through all the effort to manufacture a gun using a 3D printer. And the guys who are smart/motivated/rich enough to manufacture their own weapons wouldn't be hindered one bit by banning 3D printers.
> ?


I'm really not...Just in the midst of applying for an FFL and was brought through the confiscated weapons area...You'd be surprised how many people try this already on a daily/weekly basis.

Having a 3d printer, myself...It's just a matter of finding the right plastic...Then you can mass produce the lowers...That's my main point.

Doesn't matter on the caliber because nothing you shoot day-to-day actually requires a head pressure from the lower/action...

I'm also not saying ban people with 3d printers...But, in the very least, if someone has been arrested with possession of an illegal firearm / intent to distribute, he should in the very least be barred from ANY means to further his possession.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *u3b3rg33k*
> 
> find me a plastic barrel that can handle, well anything. Even these fail catastrophically with too much oxidizer and a potato:


What moron would use a plastic barrel? Can buy a real .50bmg barrel for about $300...Legally...I just had 2 made, myself, 1 for a .308 and 1 for a .300wm...Were $350 and $400 respectively.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> gnnnggh....
> like listening to a Nasa director trying to ban skateboard ramps for fear of the miniscule impossibility that they'd send kids flying high enough to endanger ISS


Hey, I love skateboard ramps...No reason to ban them...


----------



## Aesir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zooterboy*
> 
> Guns aren't dangerous in the slightest. It's people that are dangerous, guns are merely tools to carry out a person's will. When will people learn this?


Was my sarcasm not obvious enough? Should have used italics...


----------



## seepra

In other news, US is going to ban spoons because they make people fat.


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seepra*
> 
> In other news, US is going to ban spoons because they make people fat.


FINALLY!... next up... straws for enabling people to more easily circumvent the ban on huge sodas in New York.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> ...Again, I'm on the road to obtaining my FFL so I see what's capable...And it's a HUGE deal.
> I, quite frankly, can't explain over OCN why it's a big deal but, in essence, we just gave more people a means to a "solution" then ever had the means, before.
> Actually, metal fab shops have very strict laws in regards to this entire scenario so, I'll disagree.
> Let's put it in a way you can all understand...Civilians are restricted from owning certain distance weapons for a reason...These are NOT available on the black market, much less the civilian market...We've essentially just alerted most of them how to easily fab weapons capable of reaching over 1.5miles...
> Most of the people in this category aren't gangsters that hold a gun sideways, again, 1 shot; 1 kill.


Why wouldn't these weapons be available on the black market? Or from a shady pawn shop? Or Are you thinking people are going to be fabbing XM109's? Even if they fabbed the whole gun...are they going to fab the ammo too? Unless you are getting into the realm of a professional killer...they aren't going to worry about getting their guns. They will get what they need.

Plus, it still goes back to the point put forth countless times. If they have the know and then plans to print out a weapon and the ammo on a 3D printer...they can probably do the same thing on a CNC or other metal machining equipment. Yeah, I guess it adds another option, but when the pile of dirty laundry is already knee deep you don't really notice an other pair of socks tossed on top.

If any tracking is put on 3D printers...it is going to come from copyright infringements and not making illegal guns. I am sure some people will be arrested for that, but that will be small time compared to the amount of people that will be in court over making items that some one holds a copyright on. Which will include guns I am sure.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exnihilo*
> 
> I work for a major shipper, and here's the kicker concerning the article: The only part of the gun, that makes it a "gun", and hence harder to ship, is the lower. We can ship the upper, barrel, assemblies, etc... but you throw a lower in there and it becomes an FFL issue. Crazy, huh? So print those lowers and order the rest online, ta-da!
> cg


Perfectly legal and has been done for years, if not decades. People have be finishing 80% lowers for ARs since at least the early 90s. This may potentially make the process more common, but is still a nonissue where acquisition by criminals is concerned.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily. This would bypass every check put in place to stop certain people gaining access to them.


'Cause we all know crooks and crazies with records _never_ get a hold of guns...


----------



## SectorNine50

This thread is why we can't have nice things.


----------



## Usario

Being anti-gun control, I can't wait for fully 3D-printed guns to actually be of quality.


----------



## BBEG

Ok, this one deserves special attention.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> ...Again, I'm on the road to obtaining my FFL so I see what's capable...And it's a HUGE deal.
> 
> I, quite frankly, can't explain over OCN why it's a big deal but, in essence, we just gave more people a means to a "solution" then ever had the means, before.
> 
> Actually, metal fab shops have very strict laws in regards to this entire scenario so, I'll disagree.
> 
> Let's put it in a way you can all understand...Civilians are restricted from owning certain distance weapons for a reason...These are NOT available on the black market, much less the civilian market...We've essentially just alerted most of them how to easily fab weapons capable of reaching over 1.5miles...
> 
> Most of the people in this category aren't gangsters that hold a gun sideways, again, 1 shot; 1 kill.


I hope for all of our sakes you do not get your FFL.

There is nothing about the process of obtaining an FFL that cannot be explained over OCN.

Metal fab shops abide by the same laws as any other fab shop.

Civilians not are restricted from owning "certain distance weapons". They are restricted from owning fully automatic firearms manufactured after the late 80s, long arms whose barrel length and total length are below a certain point, and certain explosive devices. *Civilians can by and large still own these things*, they just need to deal with NFA paperwork to do so. Joe Civi can legally own artillery, the munitions for it, and be trained in how to operate it. Plenty of people own rifles capable of reaching out to and past a mile; many of _these_ even know how to put rounds on target that far. And furthermore, I'd love to see an example of what weapons you're referring to that are not available on the black market. Please, enlighten me via PM if it's too dangerous a secret for the open forum.

No, there is nothing in 3D printing that will "alert most of them how to easily fab weapons capable of reaching over 1.5 miles". Look at the weapons that actually are capable of this. Look at how they are constructed, and of what material they're constructed from. Look at what parts of those weapons actually bear loads and what kind of loads.

"Most of the people in this category"? Please.


----------



## Brutuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> So part of a gun is printed unsuccsefully. Kinda makes me think nothing at all.
> Any would e perp still has to come up with ammo and the rest...
> 
> Take a second mortgage to buy a 3d printer in order to make a unreliable gun part or grab a kitchen knife?
> 
> The funny thing is that the #d printer is treated like a magical device with which you can make stuff. Where the making of stuff is the important thing. Banning 3d printers because you can make barely functioning parts with them is as stupid is as banning rocks because you can bash it against another rock and make em smaller and easier to throw. (unless you have flint which as far as i know is worse than WMD's)
> 
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.


A significant part of it, actually. If you look at the video you can see that.

Honestly, 3D Printing is definitely going to take off and before you know it 6 shots will be 6000.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *knd775*
> 
> I don't understand why people are criticizing this because it lacks practicality. That's not really the point. I for one am excited to see this as a proof-of-concept.


Exactly, it's just like that Intel 80 core chip among many other technological examples in that it's not meant for production, just to test and improve technology in general.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily. This would bypass every check put in place to stop certain people gaining access to them.
Click to expand...

3D Printing is a new technology and like any new technology, it's going to take some serious new laws to keep it safe.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *knd775*
> 
> I don't understand why people are criticizing this because it lacks practicality. That's not really the point. I for one am excited to see this as a proof-of-concept.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a lot easier to make/buy a reliable plastic part than that to use an expensive 3D printer that costs well over $1000.
> 
> Here is a molded stock for a POS Hi Point 9mm that costs $57.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I just don't see the big deal here. But then again, I've been dealing with firearms for over 50 years now.
Click to expand...

It's a proof of concept, right now it's not viable but 3D Printers are coming down in price just as fast if not faster than SSDs these days..They're also insanely useful, for example I could print out the lower, test it out and make sure the design works well before I actually get it properly made, in future I'd simply make it all myself.

Hell, take case modding for example, I could easily print a bracket to mount an SSD on the back of a mobo tray, or a 3.5" to 2.5" bay adapter..Or a 5.25" to 3.5" adapter that is custom suited to the specific case I want it in.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> Yes, at the moment they're are nice and expensive which will put a lot of people off them. However, they will naturally become cheaper over time and if people are able to print whatever they want whenever they want without being monitored then this could become a very serious problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is a criminal more likely to do? Purchase a $200 3D printer (in the future assuming they become cheap), purchase/pirate expensive CAD software, learn how to use said CAD software, and print a firearm? Or go purchase a used 9mm for $100 from a black market dealer?
> 
> In any case, it's a moot point. 3D printers only create plastic parts, and you can't make a gun out of plastic. A shotgun operates around 8,000 psi, a handgun around 30,000 psi, and a high-powered rifle might be over 60,000 psi. No plastic can contain that kind of pressure. Which brings us back to the previous point...is a criminal going to buy a 3D printer, learn how to use CAD software, print most of a gun, purchase the rest of the parts that can't be printed, and assemble and test it? Or just purchase a used and probably stolen gun from a black market dealer?
Click to expand...

I'd imagine that this kind of thing would become fairly popular, you wouldn't even need the CAD software, just a torrent client, internet and a 3D printer.

Also, there are 3D printers that print metal among other things but they are insanely expensive.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> I don't understand why anyone is looking at this from a gun control standpoint. You can get an old beat up CNC for a few grand and make a real one... there is no threat at all from being able to print single shot 3d printed parts.


Exactly, sure there's increased likelihood of someone owning a gun..but that goes for people who would try to prevent violent crime happening too, I may be able to print out a gun and mug someone but then that person who I choose to mug may also have printed out a gun, it balances itself out, sure it may enable easier access to guns (Slightly easier, anyway) but that's true for all sides.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *airbozo*
> 
> How is this any different from buying a lower or complete weapon from the black market (cheaper than you can buy the printer for)?
> It would take me a 15 minute drive and less than $100 to buy a gun.
> This is not that big of a deal. You can use a simple cnc machine to make a lower right now for less than the cost of a 3d printer. I would wager that you could take the lower design to many metal fab shops who would make that lower for you with no questions asked.
> You guys are freaking out about nothing. The sky is NOT falling chicken little...
> 
> 
> 
> ...Again, I'm on the road to obtaining my FFL so I see what's capable...And it's a HUGE deal.
> 
> I, quite frankly, can't explain over OCN why it's a big deal but, in essence, we just gave more people a means to a "solution" then ever had the means, before.
> 
> Actually, metal fab shops have very strict laws in regards to this entire scenario so, I'll disagree.
> 
> Let's put it in a way you can all understand...Civilians are restricted from owning certain distance weapons for a reason...These are NOT available on the black market, much less the civilian market...We've essentially just alerted most of them how to easily fab weapons capable of reaching over 1.5miles...
> 
> Most of the people in this category aren't gangsters that hold a gun sideways, again, 1 shot; 1 kill.
Click to expand...

Okay, lets say your right and someone thinks "Oh, I can print out a gun that can shoot really far! Now to kill that guy I hate", assuming he can easily print out a gun that can do that..what's the likelihood someone near him will also have a gun? At most you'd see gun crime go up a tiny bit, because while it also would make it easier and cheaper to get mass amounts of weapons for the criminals, it also (shock horror) makes it easier for law abiding citizens who simply want to defend themselves to get high powered firearms too.


----------



## DesertRat

To be honest, it only needs some reinforcement for it to work reliably. Also, the upper they were using, the AR-Five Seven, is known for it's particularly violent recoil impulse. Not saying a regular 5.56 DI upper wouldn't have done the same thing after many thousands of rounds, but it certainly accelerated the fault. It's already fairly easy to purchase legally, a 80% lower, and with a drill-press and some patience you can mill it into an actual 100% lower.


----------



## BulletSponge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> Almost everything except the barrel, firing pin, and springs.


Wrong


----------



## Shaded War

I don't see this as such breaking news. Its only the lower receiver, not an entire firearm.

I've owned gas blowback airsoft rifles with a CNC aluminum lower receiver that were identical to my Colt Ar-15. The only difference was a slight change to the trigger (and full auto select fire) which could have been swapped out in under 10 minutes, and nobody is doing anything about that. Anyone who is capable of printing out this lower receiver and using it is more then capable of this.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BulletSponge*
> 
> Wrong


~80% of a Glock 17 is plastic. What substantial parts besides the barrel and triggering mechanism are metal?


----------



## BulletSponge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> ~80% of a Glock 17 is plastic. What substantial parts besides the barrel and triggering mechanism are metal?


The entire upper slide of the Glock 17 which I hold in my hand is metal. NOT PLASTIC.

I took the liberty of copying the text below from Glocks own website.....

Four primary parts of a pistol

Frame: The frame makes up the basic structure of the pistol to which the other major parts are attached.
Barrel: The barrel is a long hollow tube through which the projectile travels on its way to the target. The 'rifled' (grooved) texture inside spins the bullet, creating velocity and accuracy. In most cases, the length of the barrel determines the velocity. The shorter the barrel, the less velocity is produced.
Slide: The slide is the steel upper portion of a semi-automatic pistol. It slides along its rails during the recoil process. The slide chambers ammunition into the barrel and extract the spent casing after the round is fired. It also slides along its tracks during the recoil process to provide the link between the breechblock and barrel. The slide is used to chamber the ammunition into the barrel and extract the spent casing from the fired ammunition.
Magazine: The magazine contains the ammunition and ensures that it is fed properly into the barrel.


----------



## HardwareDecoder

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BulletSponge*
> 
> The entire upper slide of the Glock 17 which I hold in my hand is metal. NOT PLASTIC.
> I took the liberty of copying the text below from Glocks own website.....
> Four primary parts of a pistol
> Frame: The frame makes up the basic structure of the pistol to which the other major parts are attached.
> Barrel: The barrel is a long hollow tube through which the projectile travels on its way to the target. The 'rifled' (grooved) texture inside spins the bullet, creating velocity and accuracy. In most cases, the length of the barrel determines the velocity. The shorter the barrel, the less velocity is produced.
> Slide: The slide is the steel upper portion of a semi-automatic pistol. It slides along its rails during the recoil process. The slide chambers ammunition into the barrel and extract the spent casing after the round is fired. It also slides along its tracks during the recoil process to provide the link between the breechblock and barrel. The slide is used to chamber the ammunition into the barrel and extract the spent casing from the fired ammunition.
> Magazine: The magazine contains the ammunition and ensures that it is fed properly into the barrel.


yup I have a glock 19 ( smaller version of a 17 but identical basically ) he is 100% correct.


----------



## un-midas touch

ITT, people who fear guns because they don't know enough about them.

Judging by the source, article is trying to prod legislation about regulating 3D printing DRM style. See the big picture people... How many manufacturers are worried that these will eat their profits?

edit: I would go as far as to say that you might soon require a license to own a 3D printer altogether. We're losing the game here.


----------



## HardwareDecoder

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> ITT, people who fear guns because they don't know enough about them.
> Judging by the source, article is trying to prod legislation about regulating 3D printing DRM style. See the big picture people... How many manufacturers are worried that these will eat their profits?


Kind of like how weed became illegal. All the big textile companies couldn't compete with how much fabric/paper you could get from one weed plant that grows like 4 or so times a year vs a tree that takes 30-40 years to mature. So they payed off a bunch of moron politicians and acted like they were worried about people smoking it and getting 'reefer madness' next thing you know it is illegal (was legal before 1910 or 20 I think. Can't remember exactly.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> ~80% of a Glock 17 is plastic. What substantial parts besides the barrel and triggering mechanism are metal?


Sorry, that is just plain wrong.

A Glock is 83% steel. It has 19 ounces of steel and 4 ounces of lead when loaded.

As with the AR, only the lower part is made of "plastic" (actually it is a polymer), and as with the AR, all the "high pressure" parts are steel. Glock and others have been perfecting polymers in the firearm industry as long as 3D Printers have been around (since the late '70s and early '80s).


----------



## u3b3rg33k

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> What moron would use a plastic barrel? Can buy a real .50bmg barrel for about $300...Legally...I just had 2 made, myself, 1 for a .308 and 1 for a .300wm...Were $350 and $400 respectively.


That's the point - apparently the sheeple think you can push print and out comes an entire firearm, sighted in and chamber loaded.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BulletSponge*
> 
> The entire upper slide of the Glock 17 which I hold in my hand is metal. NOT PLASTIC.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Sorry, that is just plain wrong.


I could have sworn I've seen Glocks with plastic slides, but it appears I was mistaken.

Thanks for the correction.


----------



## MegaSmiley

With current technology, it's unfeasible to print a gun. However, it's only a matter of time before gun-quality plastic is made that can be printed, or before laser metalic sintering (ie: actually printing in metal) is made cheap enough for consumer purchase.

However, this gun is still important because even in it's current form it is strong enough to kill someone, without having to actually purchase a firearm. Some might see this as a way for criminals to get weapons, but let's face it a criminal is not going to go to the trouble of getting a 3D printer to make a gun, they'll just buy black market.

No, the real purpose of a gun like this is the same purpose as the WW2 Liberator pistol. This one-shot pistol was created to be handed over to rebel civilians in enemy territory, so they could have a weapon to kill an enemy soldier with to get their weapon. 3D printed guns are an emergency tool to get a better weapon from an invading enemy force. In a horrible world where civilians could be forbidden from getting firearms, 3D printing might be their salvation.


----------



## BBEG

You would not want a polymer pistol slide for centerfire cartridges. That chunk of metal is doing a lot more than just keeping the boom inside.









As for polymer actions, nonissue. We're a long, _long_ way off from producing a high-end polymer that can replace steel in the action of a centerfire firearm. It will be even longer before 3D printers can work with those materials, if it's even possible.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MegaSmiley*
> 
> However, this gun is still important because even in it's current form it is strong enough to kill someone, *without having to actually purchase a firearm.*


You do realize that in an $800 AR, the lower is a < $120 part?


----------



## MegaSmiley

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> You do realize that in an $800 AR, the lower is a < $120 part?


And in places where that lower receiver is illegal to purchase or impossible to find, it might as well be priceless. Lots of people here are used to a US mind-set of weapons, where a gun shop can be found in every town. But in many parts of Europe, just finding a place that sells guns is hard enough, not to mention the red tape you have to go through in order to be able to legally buy that $120 part, if that's even possible.


----------



## cdoublejj

this is stupid, only the lower receiver is 3d printer.


----------



## Faster_is_better

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DayoftheGreek*
> 
> Make an entire AK-47 (almost) out of a shovel!
> 
> http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!


wow lol


----------



## m98custom1212

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> So part of a gun is printed unsuccsefully. Kinda makes me think nothing at all.
> Any would e perp still has to come up with ammo and the rest...
> Take a second mortgage to buy a 3d printer in order to make a unreliable gun part or grab a kitchen knife?
> The funny thing is that the #d printer is treated like a magical device with which you can make stuff. Where the making of stuff is the important thing. Banning 3d printers because you can make barely functioning parts with them is as stupid is as banning rocks because you can bash it against another rock and make em smaller and easier to throw. (unless you have flint which as far as i know is worse than WMD's)
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.


3D printers are cheap


----------



## SDH500

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> See the big picture people... How many manufacturers are worried that these will eat their profits?
> edit: I would go as far as to say that you might soon require a license to own a 3D printer altogether. We're losing the game here.


Hypen<-(auto correct for the word "the") The argument in this thread gives me the chukles. If you think the worst thing that can be printed off by a 3d printer is a gun then you are missing the big picture. With this technology advancing I can make and entire plastic rc car in a few days with a push of a button. The reason behind resistance to 3d printing is that once costs are lowered for processing you could print off anything you wanted if you had the correct size of machine. For an average bad ass gangster... He is going to get a gun even if he wants it. Now say a bigot dictator gets his hands on plans for a new weapon, he could mass produce them.

Now more importantly to the industry partners was that with this technology you can make close to perfect replicas of practically anything, this would be very bad for intellectual property rights. Imagin printing off your own graphics cards.

I just wrote a ethics review on my project, I published a new way to create metallic and ceramic particles for 3d printing. We use it to creat light arospace equiptment becuase you can control the density of the material without having a huge effect on strength.

un-midas touch had it right saying that manufacturing industry is already trying make it difficult to buy 3d printers.


----------



## m98custom1212

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenixlight*
> 
> It doesn't matter how far away it is, people shouldn't have access to guns that easily. This would bypass every check put in place to stop certain people gaining access to them.










I run a machine shop.. if I waited I could make ar15 lowers, better made Ak47's, glocks, suppressors you name it.

Even if you could or couldn't 3D print a gun that wouldn't stop a criminal from getting one.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> I could have sworn I've seen Glocks with plastic slides, but it appears I was mistaken.
> Thanks for the correction.


The FN Fiveseven has a slide with a plastic outer shell, but it still has a metal inner slide to withstand the force of the recoil mechanism. It is about as close as we have come to a plastic gun.


----------



## Blameless

I've decided that I'm going to build a 3d printer then club school children to death with it, just so people will realize how evil 3d printing really is and ban it.

Then I will claim innocence as, obviously, people don't kill people, 3D printers kill people...


----------



## RX7-2nr

This whole thread is ******ed. So many people blowing this whole thing about 3d printers out of proportion. There are machine shops everywhere and its not like they are all pulling the blinds at night and making illegal firearms to give to criminals.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RX7-2nr*
> 
> This whole thread is ******ed. So many people blowing this whole thing about 3d printers out of proportion. There are machine shops everywhere and its not like they are all pulling the blinds at night and making illegal firearms to give to criminals.


Well, you can make everything with a CNC machine anyway, but you'd need the exact measurements for everything, which would be pretty hard with the trigger mechanism. A 3D printer could do all of this, but out of materials that are weaker than metal; what a danger to the public!


----------



## noak

Printing the lower could lead to a person to make a full auto trigger sear, which would be highly illegal. Still, not very practicle as many have pointed out.


----------



## DayoftheGreek

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *noak*
> 
> Printing the lower could lead to a person to make a full auto trigger sear, which would be highly illegal. Still, not very practicle as many have pointed out.


Even without a full-auto sear this is highly illegal. Isn't the whole point that only the lower needs to be given a registered and documented serial number?


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *noak*
> 
> Printing the lower could lead to a person to make a full auto trigger sear, which would be highly illegal. Still, not very practicle as many have pointed out.


Actually, a fully automatic AR-15 trigger mechanism requires something like two new parts in the trigger mechanism and one new one on the bolt. It's pretty hard to get one of them to do fully auto, unless you're a gunsmith.


----------



## m98custom1212

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DayoftheGreek*
> 
> Even without a full-auto sear this is highly illegal. Isn't the whole point that only the lower needs to be given a registered and documented serial number?


If you can legally own a firearm you can legally *make* your own. MAKE not sell. You just have your own serial number/

check out http://www.cncguns.com/


----------



## MegaSmiley

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DayoftheGreek*
> 
> Even without a full-auto sear this is highly illegal. Isn't the whole point that only the lower needs to be given a registered and documented serial number?


Actually at least in the US you can legally make a gun yourself, including the lower receiver. However, it is illegal to then sell it without a license. It is also illegal to make a gun you cannot legally own.

Edit: beat to it


----------



## BulletSponge

All this worry over plastics when high density ceramics have been studied by the government for years for use in weapons including barrels. Source
And I'd be lying if I said I understood a fraction of what is contained within the source.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MegaSmiley*
> 
> And in places where that lower receiver is illegal to purchase or impossible to find, it might as well be priceless. Lots of people here are used to a US mind-set of weapons, where a gun shop can be found in every town. But in many parts of Europe, just finding a place that sells guns is hard enough, not to mention the red tape you have to go through in order to be able to legally buy that $120 part, if that's even possible.


That's not my point. They still have to find every other part to create a functioning firearm, the most critical of which are extremely difficult to (legally) acquire in Europe. The barrel, in particular, is itself a registered item in many EU countries.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *noak*
> 
> Printing the lower could lead to a person to make a full auto trigger sear, which would be highly illegal. Still, not very practicle as many have pointed out.


No. If you manufacture the registered part of a firearm, in this case the lower receiver, you can legally build a fully automatic weapon around it. What you cannot do is register the weapon with the ATF; the moment it gets a serial number, it becomes a post-86 machine gun and subject to applicable law.

On second read, this is a complete legal grey area. One must be a Class 3 licensee to manufacture machine guns, but a self-fabricated weapon is not serialized. Not sure it's worth the potential trouble of an overzealous ATF agent.


----------



## Socks keep you warm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MegaSmiley*
> 
> And in places where that lower receiver is illegal to purchase or impossible to find, it might as well be priceless. Lots of people here are used to a US mind-set of weapons, where a gun shop can be found in every town. But in many parts of Europe, just finding a place that sells guns is hard enough, not to mention the red tape you have to go through in order to be able to legally buy that $120 part, if that's even possible.


In Australia i am 17 and i have been to many places, I have only ever seen 1 gun store.


----------



## EniGma1987

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Huzzbutt*
> 
> So part of a gun is printed unsuccsefully. Kinda makes me think nothing at all.
> Any would e perp still has to come up with ammo and the rest...
> Take a second mortgage to buy a 3d printer in order to make a unreliable gun part or grab a kitchen knife?
> The funny thing is that the #d printer is treated like a magical device with which you can make stuff. Where the making of stuff is the important thing. Banning 3d printers because you can make barely functioning parts with them is as stupid is as banning rocks because you can bash it against another rock and make em smaller and easier to throw. (unless you have flint which as far as i know is worse than WMD's)
> We're a long way from a 3d printer that can make usefull everyday crimecomitting stuff.


See last weeks CSI episode? It had this sort of thing in it. An assassin used one time use, disposable printed guns (that break after 1-2 shots) to assassinate people so the guns were untraceable.


----------



## u3b3rg33k

I bet he didn't print the ammo...


----------



## dizzy4

Once again, Direct Laser Metal Sintering is capable of printing the ENTIRE thing. You just can't do it in your house yet.


----------



## RetroSpiderman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exnihilo*
> 
> I work for a major shipper, and here's the kicker concerning the article: The only part of the gun, that makes it a "gun", and hence harder to ship, is the lower. We can ship the upper, barrel, assemblies, etc... but you throw a lower in there and it becomes an FFL issue. Crazy, huh? So print those lowers and order the rest online, ta-da!
> cg


That's exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dizzy4*
> 
> Once again, Direct Laser Metal Sintering is capable of printing the ENTIRE thing. You just can't do it in your house yet.


When DLMS can print a barrel/bolt able to withstand a centerfire cartridge's chamber pressures, let me know.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EniGma1987*
> 
> See last weeks CSI episode? It had this sort of thing in it. An assassin used one time use, disposable printed guns (that break after 1-2 shots) to assassinate people so the guns were untraceable.


See? I keep telling you all this is just propaganda to ban the use of 3D printing. Open your eyes.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EniGma1987*
> 
> See last weeks CSI episode? It had this sort of thing in it. An assassin used one time use, disposable printed guns (that break after 1-2 shots) to assassinate people so the guns were untraceable.


lol in reality, the guns would just explode and kill or injure the assassin.


----------



## lin2dev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jprovido*
> 
> DIY guns? scary


Not really, PLA or ABS (or any other thermoplastic) can't withstand the stress put on the receiver during firing, the only reason why this (sorta) worked is because the AR15's lower receiver doesn't house much of the moving parts except the receiver extension and trigger group. The barrel and bolt will ALWAYS have to be made out of metal (otherwise you have a hand grenade rather than a firearm), so the metal detector argument is null. If a criminal really wanted to create a firearm, all he'd have to do is purchase a mill and an aluminum billet. Mills of the size required are well under $1K and can be bought from your local tool store. Criminals could easily buy a firearm off the black market as well. I'll keep my 3D printer thankyouverymuch.


----------



## RX7-2nr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MegaSmiley*
> 
> Actually at least in the US you can legally make a gun yourself, including the lower receiver. However, it is illegal to then sell it without a license. It is also illegal to make a gun you cannot legally own.
> Edit: beat to it


Exactly this.

How do you think people are able to build AK47s from kits using flats that they fold and finish into the receiver?


----------



## Nemesiswho

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Homeles*
> 
> Just because there are laws that say it's okay to do whatever doesn't necessarily mean those laws are just or the best way to go about things.
> Not that I'm for or against the 2nd Amendment, but "argument from tradition" is a rhetorical fallacy.
> You don't think 3D printers will come down in cost? You don't think that better materials will come around?
> That's a bit shortsighted.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29


I would probably call that Black and White thinking not Non Sequitur, Non Sequitur claims that there is no link between the premises and the conclusion and while this is partially true the arguement is put forth as a harsh extreme in context to the original argument. Still, good point.


----------



## dizzy4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> When DLMS can print a barrel/bolt able to withstand a centerfire cartridge's chamber pressures, let me know.


Pretty sure it can. Look at the alloys it can print:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_metal_laser_sintering Inconel should be able to handle it for more than 6 shots


----------



## BBEG

I see the list, but even Inconel requires heat treating and hardening; no material that I'm aware of can withstand the chamber pressures of centerfire cartridges without heat treating. Inconel is also prohibitively expensive, so even if the process became inexpensive enough to be viable for common (if not widespread) use, the materials would not be.

As I said, we're a long, long way off from printing the important parts of a firearm, if it can even be done.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BulletSponge*
> 
> All this worry over plastics when high density ceramics have been studied by the government for years for use in weapons including barrels. Source
> And I'd be lying if I said I understood a fraction of what is contained within the source.


According to this paper they were using a ceramic insert, not a completely ceramic barrel, which makes sense. The goal of the test was to take advantage of reduced corrosion and barrel wear, while examining if the inferior thermal conductivity and lower toughness of ceramics was an issue.

An all-ceramic barrel for a reusable, production weapon, is a long ways away. Ceramics can be made very hard and have huge compressive strength, but they tend to be very brittle with poor tensile strength.

Still, very neat stuff and a good read.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> no material that I'm aware of can withstand the chamber pressures of centerfire cartridges without heat treating


Steel can, just make it a lot thicker...but yeah, probably not practical to 3Dprint several pounds of steel when you can just buy pipe.


----------



## wutang61

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

And here's some crap for the many lib-tards that populate my generation:

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.


----------



## Domino

you can buy cough medicine over the counter, but it can be used for illegal intentions or self harm. it'll be the same situation with printed guns, but, you'll have a much harder time obtaining low cost materials that can endure the shearing forces to make the weapontry a feesable threat. let alone, as members have mentioned, cutting material strong enough takes more power then your standard 110V jack can provide. the positive application of these printers is much higher then these cons that already exist.

There is a much higher chance of someone going into a store, picking up a knife, and then stabbing someone out of random then someone getting ahold of the proper materials, the 3d-printer, constructing the weapon, and then randomly discharging it. but we can deal with these risks and sometimes, there is limit towards being able to stop the former from happening. So, I think people are making this out to be a bigger deal then what it actually is.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Socks keep you warm*
> 
> In Australia i am 17 and i have been to many places, I have only ever seen 1 gun store.


You must not venture into Melbourne much ...

Gun shops in Melbourne VIC, Australia.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EniGma1987*
> 
> See last weeks CSI episode? It had this sort of thing in it. An assassin used one time use, disposable printed guns (that break after 1-2 shots) to assassinate people so the guns were untraceable.


I saw an 8 foot tall blue chick riding a green flying dinosaur on my TV last week too. I guess that is real also?









I've been shooing guns for over 50 years now, I've been reloading my own ammo for 35, and I've been customizing my own weapons for over 40. I have more than a "passing knowledge" of what is and isn't possible in this industry.


----------



## Blameless

CSI was vaguely plausible it's first season then rapidly ventured into the realm of high-fantasy.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HardwareDecoder*
> 
> Kind of like how weed became illegal. All the big textile companies couldn't compete with how much fabric/paper you could get from one weed plant that grows like 4 or so times a year vs a tree that takes 30-40 years to mature. So they payed off a bunch of moron politicians and acted like they were worried about people smoking it and getting 'reefer madness' next thing you know it is illegal (was legal before 1910 or 20 I think. Can't remember exactly.


My grandpa was actually paid by the US government to plow up regular crops to grow "hemp" for parachutes in world war 2. They called it the "Hemp for Victory" program or something like that.


----------



## exnihilo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Here is a molded stock for a POS Hi Point 9mm that costs $57.
> 
> Sorry, I just don't see the big deal here. But then again, I've been dealing with firearms for over 50 years now.


Nice find!~ I'd love a way to make them HiPoints less "ugly", and I love the look of the Beretta CX4 Storm. Thanks!

cg


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> I see the list, but even Inconel requires heat treating and hardening; no material that I'm aware of can withstand the chamber pressures of centerfire cartridges without heat treating. Inconel is also prohibitively expensive, so even if the process became inexpensive enough to be viable for common (if not widespread) use, the materials would not be.
> As I said, we're a long, long way off from printing the important parts of a firearm, if it can even be done.


This isn't true...And those of you that claim the pressure is too much...That's not the point.

Right now, in the US, you can as a citizen over the age of 21 order every single part of an AR with the exception of the lower. Don't need a license, don't need authorization in fact, 99% of the time all you do is click a button that says you accept the terms of that sale so, you could be 12 in all reality.

This particular AR "broke down" because the bolt recoil was too much pressure for the lower. That's very easily remedied, as some have already stated, he just used the wrong method.

My business owns a 3D printer because I wanted to make custom parts above/beyond what other manufacturers were making...I've experimented with many plastics in the printer.

If you know where to buy from, by my math and from my last order, you can get a significantly harder plastic and bang out receivers for arguably 50c/receiver. I'm not including the electricity or programming time but, if you buy the beads/medium in enough bulk, they get down to next to nothing.

So, let's toss out the expense argument because 50c/lower is actually chump change in the grand scheme of things.

Let's move onto the pressure argument...My gunsmith and I, actually had a VERY LONG discussion about this last night and he had some different ways of doing it...Ways that I hadn't even thought of that actually make this easier.

Polymer AR15's and LRR's already exist, they're just not available to the private citizen...Most are prototypes but, there are a few mainstream.

Let's talk pistols.

The G22 is an example of a 90% polymer frame...Or plastic, if you'd prefer calling it plastic...However, on a pistol, the slide is what gets registered with an FFL.

It would not be difficult to obtain a G22, use the match barrel that one can buy over the counter and just make a polymer slide.

Now, you have an untraceable handgun that, you can essentially just throw away after 5/6 shots (I don't know why you'd need more than 1) and it could never be traced, ever.

Ammunition isn't tracked in fact, I can buy in bulk @ 1000 rounds of 45acp right now, without having a license and I can even pay by check so, in essence, someone could just steal a check and get about 1000 rounds of ammo without anyone knowing the wiser for about a month.

Let's talk AR's.

Now, polymer AR's already exist in a completed fashion without metal receivers...In fact, I believe it was frontier armory that perfected the technique...

The polymer, only costs a few dollars from what I was told and can actually be run over much like a Pmag. The lower actually retails for $115.00.

Now the issue with the upper is purely one of head pressure...Nothing more, nothing less...This can be altered by venting the back pressure on the back of the barrel and mid-porting.

Do you lose velocity? Yes...Absolutely, the FPS will drop from about 2800 to 1800 but, you only need 1 shot.

Now, if the person making these receivers augmented the process just slightly and used a stronger plastic, voilla, we have a working AR15 that can fire more than 5/6 shots.

In fact, they already exist...

Again, the entire AR from start to finish, can be made, by using polymers for less than $400 and $200 of that is actually the barrel/barrel nut/bolt.

You don't need to buy a new upper, either...Just buy a barrel on the street for $20, thread/mount the barrel to the head size, space the head and you have an untraceable AR.

Let's talk rifles.

Again, polymers exist that can accept the head pressures from a .223/.556 so, is a .308 beyond belief? No. A 300wm? No. A .338? No...A .408? Maybe...A .50? After 1 shot, yes.

In fact, there are polymer rifles already on the private market...Considering how few there actually are, I highly doubt any have made it to the black market but, whatever...It's possible.

Polymer rifles when loaded with polymer rounds (Already exist and made by a company called PCP), one could adjust the tip to be ceramic; in fact if you hand loaded, there are several materials that are commonly purchased that essentially leave no trace, can't be tracked and your target, he's still dead...From a mile etc.

So, polymer rifle, absolutely...Again 1 shot, 1 kill.

I don't quite understand where you people are getting the argument "Try making a 1k yard shot when getting shot at"...Well, if you're not ******ed, you won't be fired on until AFTER your first shot and if you have half a brain, they won't be able to find you after the first shot...Or the 2nd...But, the 3rd, will hit off the harmonic tracers and then, you better run.

The danger that exists is entirely the fact they're untraceable and how cheap they are to actually produce...We already know for a fact, and beyond a reasonable doubt, that certain household plastics/polymers are capable of being used to make a rifle. We already used polymer rounds because there's less head pressure but, the round accomplishes the same exact task as it's FMJ brethren.

I'm not saying, panic, I'm not saying, live in fear, I'm not sensationalizing this situation. What I AM saying is, this essentially gives the means for someone to bang out lowers at 50c/piece or entire guns at a cost of about $20/rifle minus the barrel/barrel nut and bolt...Which you can actually buy on the street as well, for about $10...So, for $30, someone on the street could arguably have a working .338 with ceramic ammo...Capable of hitting 1mile+...With a rifle that's 100% untraceable in any regard other than the plastics that individual used...Because, again, any shooter with 1/2 a brain firing a rifle in that type of situation would take the bolt with them.

They don't blow up in your hands...They don't explode if they're properly made...And you won't get shot at UNTIL AFTER YOUR FIRST SHOT, unless you're absolutely brain dead...So an assassination is actually 100% possible.

Also, available on the civilian market are guides/graphs for windage, distance, elevation, temperature...In fact, on the flip guide of my .408's log-book is an entire graph that came with the book that actually calculates all of the above in a Mil-Dot output...I don't use it but, the binder itself cost $5 and I HIGHLY DOUBT, they even have my name on file in the great state of Georgia.

This is only a big deal because of what can happen...Has happened...and will continue to happen.

Again, I'm not fearmongering but, the reality is that the vast majority of you think this is a joke and that's okay but, with this becoming mainstream, much more mainstream than billeting and MUCH CHEAPER, then this is going to occur more and more often and IMO, we need to be aware of that and monitor the sales of these a bit closer...

That's my 2cp, agree with me or not, don't really care.


----------



## EniGma1987

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> You must not venture into Melbourne much ...
> Gun shops in Melbourne VIC, Australia.
> I saw an 8 foot tall blue chick riding a green flying dinosaur on my TV last week too. I guess that is real also?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been shooing guns for over 50 years now, I've been reloading my own ammo for 35, and I've been customizing my own weapons for over 40. I have more than a "passing knowledge" of what is and isn't possible in this industry.


ok well good for you? Im glad we know your life story now. Its good you just assume I believe everything on TV cause I sooooo obviously do. lol


----------



## 66racer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *knd775*
> 
> I don't understand why people are criticizing this because it lacks practicality. That's not really the point. I for one am excited to see this as a proof-of-concept.


+1

As the technology advances and becomes cheaper who knows, it might be something all amateur engineers can afford. I have seen second hand early units go cheap. I remember back in 2001 my high school got one for only like $2000 used. There are composite lower receivers that work too, so technically in the future if better plastics can be used it might actually work. The interesting part for the non gun guys is the lower receiver is the only part of an ar15 that needs to be registered. Its what states consider to be the gun basically. In California if you have a lower reciever registered itsas good as having a complete rifle in their records. The point is anyone ccan buy the parts needed to build the rifle that can't legally own one and just make a lower with the printer or even more interesting make full auto ones.

While obviously not practicle now interesting to see what 5yrs from now will do


----------



## Cheezman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> I saw an 8 foot tall blue chick riding a green flying dinosaur on my TV last week too. I guess that is real also?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been shooing guns for over 50 years now, I've been reloading my own ammo for 35, and I've been customizing my own weapons for over 40. I have more than a "passing knowledge" of what is and isn't possible in this industry.


No, you have no clue actually.

Just because you shoot paper targets or animals doesn't qualify you as an expert on firearms. You clearly have NO CLUE as to what advancements billion dollar manufactures are working on pioneering behind closed doors, and to claim otherwise is asinine.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *exnihilo*
> 
> Nice find!~ I'd love a way to make them HiPoints less "ugly", and I love the look of the Beretta CX4 Storm. Thanks!
> cg


Actually the look became very popular with "SciFi geeks" because in the remake of the TV series, Battlestar Galactica, that was their "Laser Gun".

But all that aside, it actually makes the Hi Point less of a piece of junk, because, at least for me, who is 6'6" tall, it increases the overall length of the weapon by about 1.5" to 2" and gives it a much better eye relief when using optics. Also, it is better constructed than the factory stock, which is split in the rear and tends to pinch at the seams.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> No, you have no clue actually.
> Just because you shoot paper targets or animals doesn't qualify you as an expert on firearms. You clearly have NO CLUE as to what advancements billion dollar manufactures are working on pioneering behind closed doors, and to claim otherwise is asinine.


By all means, tell me then, since you apparently do.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Actually the look became very popular with "SciFi geeks" because in the remake of the TV series, Battlestar Galactica, that was their "Laser Gun".
> But all that aside, it actually makes the Hi Point less of a piece of junk, because, at least for me, who is 6'6" tall, it increases the overall length of the weapon by about 1.5" to 2" and gives it a much better eye relief when using optics. Also, it is better constructed than the factory stock, which is split in the rear and tends to pinch at the seams.
> By all means, tell me then, since you apparently do.


Ceramic rounds with significantly less head pressure have existed for snipers for over a year.

There are also MANY new classified developments to the entire process that don't take much more than some ingenuity beyond the starting line...

Thus why the existence of polymer weapons boomed in the past year...And thus why this is "kind of a big deal".

While you cannot escape the pressures of the primer/etc...It's still very possible to alleviate that pressure in a bolt action rifle.

Also, I know of 2/3 guys that have actually successfully made their own polymer casings that hand-load.

Look up PCP...

Quite frankly, you could use the education.

Imagine making that round with a TPSC Ceramic tip. Anyone say, untraceable with the same ballistics as a Hornandy 250grain match round? I can, all day long.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Ceramic rounds with significantly less head pressure have existed for snipers for over a year.
> There are also MANY new classified developments to the entire process that don't take much more than some ingenuity beyond the starting line...
> Thus why the existence of polymer weapons boomed in the past year...And thus why this is "kind of a big deal".
> While you cannot escape the pressures of the primer/etc...It's still very possible to alleviate that pressure in a bolt action rifle.
> Also, I know of 2/3 guys that have actually successfully made their own polymer casings that hand-load.
> Look up PCP...
> Quite frankly, you could use the education.
> Imagine making that round with a TPSC Ceramic tip. Anyone say, untraceable with the same ballistics as a Hornandy 250grain match round? I can, all day long.


Ammo != Barrel or Receiver.

And yes, I am well aware of advancements in bullets, just as I am aware of advancements in "intelligent scopes" over the past couple of years, but since neither have anything to do with barrels or receivers, I didn't bring them up.

As far as PCP goes, it's only real advantage is that it is 1/2 the weight of brass. It doesn't improve the ballistics of the round at all. Hopefully they have solved the issues that polymer casings had about a decade ago of melting in the receiver because of the pressure and heat. If they have, and it can meat the MILSPEC's, it will aid a soldiers ability to carry more ammo in battle, or the same amount of ammo at a reduced weight, so he can carry more and different items for the advanced battlefield. But to a "sniper" or "assassin", it doesn't really have much practical purpose ... and really has nothing to do with the topic at hand ... 3D printers. The polymers in both are totally different (I'm 99.999999% sure of that).


----------



## wilykat

So you can make your own zip gun? I see one issue with it: you need a license to make one and crook could see extra jail time if they made one without license, and even more jail time if the zip gun was used in a crime.

Stick with a kitchen knife, quicker, cheaper, and shorter jail time.









Or better yet, don't do the crime at all.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Ammo != Barrel or Receiver.
> And yes, I am well aware of advancements in bullets, just as I am aware of advancements in "intelligent scopes" over the past couple of years, but since neither have anything to do with barrels or receivers, I didn't bring them up.


LOL.









Ammo with 1/2 the head pressure when exiting the rifle actually makes this entire situation beyond 100% plausible.

The ammo I mentioned isn't even that hard to buy...Don't even have to go through PX.

Tell you what...Let's ask the guy that made the video to kick up his polymer process and use Polymer/ceramic hand loads.

Wanna see how long that AR lasts? Because I do...Especially since there's a company already out there making poly lowers...

I'd GUARANTEE you that rifle would last significantly longer...In fact, I'd almost bet you my AR it'd last for over a drum.


----------



## Cheezman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> By all means, tell me then, since you apparently do.


Right, because I claimed _I did_...


----------



## F1ynn

cool that people can do this. Anyone who is smart enough to work those printers and design the gun is probably in his right mind.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> we need to be aware of that and monitor the sales of these a bit closer...


I don't really disagree with much of what you've said in the above post until we get to this point.

In my view, monitoring and tracking firearm sales has gone way too far as of at least the 1930s. Anyone who wants to, unless they have proven they cannot use such weapons responsibly, should be able to manufacture, trade, purchase, or sell any small arms they wish, without having to jump through the hoops of background checks, waiting periods, registration, or anything else. I believe that I should be able to walk into a gun store, drop a wad of cash, and walk out with a fully automatic M249, an XM-109, and all the ammunition I can carry, without so much as having to present an ID or give my name. Why? Because 99.999%+ of people who would do this would be using their weapons for purposes that would never illegally harm anyone.

I'm firmly convinced that the harm caused by any gun control vastly exceeds the harm caused by readily available and unrestricted private possession of any conceivable weapon short of WMDs.

I do not think there is anything to fear from easier access to weapons. As you yourself have pointed out, where there is a will, there is a way. Same thing goes for assassinations. If someone really wants you dead, making it a little bit harder, or a little bit more expensive, to get away with murder, won't save you. The chance that one or two murders of public officials may or may not be prevented with information from tracking 3D printers, is not worth the cost of pushing such a law through state or federal legislatures, let alone actually enforcing it. It's sure not worth the inevitable abuses that will follow.

3D printing has no significant negative implications beyond the basic financial ones that come with any shift in market forces. Conversely, it has innumerable positive applications. Any attempt to implement legislation that restricts or tracks 3D printers is unjust, not to mention profoundly wasteful and inevitably completely ineffective. You may as well try to outlaw fire or track impure thoughts.

You are advocating burning tax money and complicating lawful purchases, nothing more.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> You are advocating burning tax money and complicating lawful purchases, nothing more.


I'm actually really just advocating that when someone buys a 3D printer they do 2 minutes of paperwork.

Should the average citizen really have to? No... Probably not but, would it eventually save someone's life? It's quite possible.

It would definitely make the individual significantly easier to trace if there happened to be a sudden boom in shootings with plastic/polymer "home made" lowers...

Polymer casings already exist...So, definitely don't need the brass anymore to really get ammo made...Ceramic tip the round, half the primer and you have a legitimate polymer round.

The polymer we're discussing that already exists is quite a bit stronger then what's mainstream right now but, it's not out of reach...I'm sure if I talked to my plastics company, I could come up with something relatively similar...It's not unfathomable.

I think what shocked me the most when I went into NYPD's locker were the WOODEN lower receivers...That's right, criminals in NYC will make their guns out of wood, people. So, in that respect, I'll agree that someone who wants a gun will do whatever they can to acquire one.

I, personally, wouldn't mind 2-3 minutes of paperwork when dropping 5-10k on a 3D printer though, to be as equally honest. Had to do 20 minutes of paperwork just to apply for my stamp...


----------



## lurker2501

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jprovido*
> 
> DIY guns? scary


Like it's a new thing.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Had to do 20 minutes of paperwork just to apply for my stamp...


Yeah, it's a ton of paperwork, but that 20 minutes doesn't even take into account all the other added time we have to do. Finger printing, photographs, driving here, driving there, paying for all of it, then waiting for the Federal/State/Local background checks, etc. It's a major pain for the honest gun owner. All so you can have some fun toys ... which make a much better "assassination weapon" than some 3D printer made lower for an AR-15 that breaks after 6 shots.



I just wish my State and the Feds would stop having me fill out the same damn paperwork, set of finger prints, and photograph every time I want to buy a new Title II weapon/device. My info (and certainly my finger prints) haven't changed in years.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m98custom1212*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I run a machine shop.. if I waited I could make ar15 lowers, better made Ak47's, glocks, suppressors you name it.
> Even if you could or couldn't 3D print a gun that wouldn't stop a criminal from getting one.


Exactly. What they did can be done with even the most basic of tools (just takes longer time) that are commonly available now (and have been for decades). Heck, when I turned down the barrel of my Ruger Mk II pistol, threaded it so I could put on a suppressor, and retapped the holes for the front sight, I did it all in house.

Most of the people here on OCN who are all up in, pardon the pun, arms about 3D Printing of an AR lower don't have the first clue about firearms outside of CSI Miami or Black Ops video games.


----------



## u3b3rg33k

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> I just wish my State and the Feds would stop having me fill out the same damn paperwork, set of finger prints, and photograph every time I want to buy a new Title II weapon/device. My info (and certainly my finger prints) haven't changed in years.


Form a trust. Makes it much less painful.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I'm actually really just advocating that when someone buys a 3D printer they do 2 minutes of paperwork.
> Should the average citizen really have to? No... Probably not but, would it eventually save someone's life? It's quite possible.
> It would definitely make the individual significantly easier to trace if there happened to be a sudden boom in shootings with plastic/polymer "home made" lowers...
> Polymer casings already exist...So, definitely don't need the brass anymore to really get ammo made...Ceramic tip the round, half the primer and you have a legitimate polymer round.
> The polymer we're discussing that already exists is quite a bit stronger then what's mainstream right now but, it's not out of reach...I'm sure if I talked to my plastics company, I could come up with something relatively similar...It's not unfathomable.
> I think what shocked me the most when I went into NYPD's locker were the WOODEN lower receivers...That's right, criminals in NYC will make their guns out of wood, people. So, in that respect, I'll agree that someone who wants a gun will do whatever they can to acquire one.
> I, personally, wouldn't mind 2-3 minutes of paperwork when dropping 5-10k on a 3D printer though, to be as equally honest. Had to do 20 minutes of paperwork just to apply for my stamp...


I doubt it will be a few minutes of paper work...and what good would that do? If I was criminal I'd just fake the information. They only way to regulate it would be have a license that you have to apply for and wait for a few weeks while it is reviewed by some underpaid government workers. Honestly, if it was decided that 3D printers needed that much regulation I think they would just be banned from the market...or perhaps only be approved for use by large businesses. I am still not sure which side I should be on yet even. I am trying to think what would happen to the world economy if all of a sudden there were a million people printing out goods rather than going to a store and buying them...and then what would happen at 10 million...100 million...

In a couple years I think we will be seeing 3D printing explode and it is going to make the data copyright infringement debate seem like two old ladies arguing over what tea is the best. Though this building your own gun issue might actually be a problem. No one has really mentioned this yet and I didn't realize this at first, but with the 3D printer it would take nearly no skill to build the gun part. If one person with the know how made the plan and distributed it...some one would just need the file and the software to read it and send the info to the printer. I said earlier how this is nothing new and people can do it with metal machining tools (and even wood as you mentioned), but to do so requires a lot of skill that cannot be learned by just reading an owners manual. As long as I knew how to turn on and configure the printer...I should be able to make whatever I have the designs for. Though the same can really be said about machines that can hook up to a CAD program like CNCs I guess. It is just those are rather costly and no self respecting criminal would go that route when you can get guns cheaper via other avenues.


----------



## Valor958

Isn't the whole point behind all this that no amount of regulation will really change anything in the end on this front. Last I checked, criminals aren't big on following existing gun regulations and laws.

I still stand behind my feeling that this isn't going to change anything. There are too many readily available unregistered guns and other weapons out there that can be had much cheaper and faster than getting a 3D printer, learning and printing off it, and hoping whatever you made works.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't true...And those of you that claim the pressure is too much...That's not the point.
> Right now, in the US, you can as a citizen over the age of 21 order every single part of an AR with the exception of the lower. Don't need a license, don't need authorization in fact, 99% of the time all you do is click a button that says you accept the terms of that sale so, you could be 12 in all reality.
> This particular AR "broke down" because the bolt recoil was too much pressure for the lower. That's very easily remedied, as some have already stated, he just used the wrong method.
> My business owns a 3D printer because I wanted to make custom parts above/beyond what other manufacturers were making...I've experimented with many plastics in the printer.
> If you know where to buy from, by my math and from my last order, you can get a significantly harder plastic and bang out receivers for arguably 50c/receiver. I'm not including the electricity or programming time but, if you buy the beads/medium in enough bulk, they get down to next to nothing.
> So, let's toss out the expense argument because 50c/lower is actually chump change in the grand scheme of things.
> Let's move onto the pressure argument...My gunsmith and I, actually had a VERY LONG discussion about this last night and he had some different ways of doing it...Ways that I hadn't even thought of that actually make this easier.
> Polymer AR15's and LRR's already exist, they're just not available to the private citizen...Most are prototypes but, there are a few mainstream.
> Let's talk pistols.
> The G22 is an example of a 90% polymer frame...Or plastic, if you'd prefer calling it plastic...However, on a pistol, the slide is what gets registered with an FFL.
> It would not be difficult to obtain a G22, use the match barrel that one can buy over the counter and just make a polymer slide.
> Now, you have an untraceable handgun that, you can essentially just throw away after 5/6 shots (I don't know why you'd need more than 1) and it could never be traced, ever.
> Ammunition isn't tracked in fact, I can buy in bulk @ 1000 rounds of 45acp right now, without having a license and I can even pay by check so, in essence, someone could just steal a check and get about 1000 rounds of ammo without anyone knowing the wiser for about a month.
> Let's talk AR's.
> Now, polymer AR's already exist in a completed fashion without metal receivers...In fact, I believe it was frontier armory that perfected the technique...
> The polymer, only costs a few dollars from what I was told and can actually be run over much like a Pmag. The lower actually retails for $115.00.
> Now the issue with the upper is purely one of head pressure...Nothing more, nothing less...This can be altered by venting the back pressure on the back of the barrel and mid-porting.
> Do you lose velocity? Yes...Absolutely, the FPS will drop from about 2800 to 1800 but, you only need 1 shot.
> Now, if the person making these receivers augmented the process just slightly and used a stronger plastic, voilla, we have a working AR15 that can fire more than 5/6 shots.
> In fact, they already exist...
> Again, the entire AR from start to finish, can be made, by using polymers for less than $400 and $200 of that is actually the barrel/barrel nut/bolt.
> You don't need to buy a new upper, either...Just buy a barrel on the street for $20, thread/mount the barrel to the head size, space the head and you have an untraceable AR.
> Let's talk rifles.
> Again, polymers exist that can accept the head pressures from a .223/.556 so, is a .308 beyond belief? No. A 300wm? No. A .338? No...A .408? Maybe...A .50? After 1 shot, yes.
> In fact, there are polymer rifles already on the private market...Considering how few there actually are, I highly doubt any have made it to the black market but, whatever...It's possible.
> Polymer rifles when loaded with polymer rounds (Already exist and made by a company called PCP), one could adjust the tip to be ceramic; in fact if you hand loaded, there are several materials that are commonly purchased that essentially leave no trace, can't be tracked and your target, he's still dead...From a mile etc.
> So, polymer rifle, absolutely...Again 1 shot, 1 kill.
> I don't quite understand where you people are getting the argument "Try making a 1k yard shot when getting shot at"...Well, if you're not ******ed, you won't be fired on until AFTER your first shot and if you have half a brain, they won't be able to find you after the first shot...Or the 2nd...But, the 3rd, will hit off the harmonic tracers and then, you better run.
> The danger that exists is entirely the fact they're untraceable and how cheap they are to actually produce...We already know for a fact, and beyond a reasonable doubt, that certain household plastics/polymers are capable of being used to make a rifle. We already used polymer rounds because there's less head pressure but, the round accomplishes the same exact task as it's FMJ brethren.
> I'm not saying, panic, I'm not saying, live in fear, I'm not sensationalizing this situation. What I AM saying is, this essentially gives the means for someone to bang out lowers at 50c/piece or entire guns at a cost of about $20/rifle minus the barrel/barrel nut and bolt...Which you can actually buy on the street as well, for about $10...So, for $30, someone on the street could arguably have a working .338 with ceramic ammo...Capable of hitting 1mile+...With a rifle that's 100% untraceable in any regard other than the plastics that individual used...Because, again, any shooter with 1/2 a brain firing a rifle in that type of situation would take the bolt with them.
> They don't blow up in your hands...They don't explode if they're properly made...And you won't get shot at UNTIL AFTER YOUR FIRST SHOT, unless you're absolutely brain dead...So an assassination is actually 100% possible.
> Also, available on the civilian market are guides/graphs for windage, distance, elevation, temperature...In fact, on the flip guide of my .408's log-book is an entire graph that came with the book that actually calculates all of the above in a Mil-Dot output...I don't use it but, the binder itself cost $5 and I HIGHLY DOUBT, they even have my name on file in the great state of Georgia.
> This is only a big deal because of what can happen...Has happened...and will continue to happen.
> Again, I'm not fearmongering but, the reality is that the vast majority of you think this is a joke and that's okay but, with this becoming mainstream, much more mainstream than billeting and MUCH CHEAPER, then this is going to occur more and more often and IMO, we need to be aware of that and monitor the sales of these a bit closer...
> That's my 2cp, agree with me or not, don't really care.


Masked, you're scaring me. I'm starting to think you believe what you're typing.

1) "Pressure too high" is _not_ beside the point. It *is* the point. 3D printers cannot make the critical parts of a centerfire weapon right now. They may never be able to either. This is not hyperbole; SAMMI specs are easily found and understood. It is not impossible that 3D printing will never be able to construct safe action components.

2) Yes, we US citizens over 21 can buy all parts of a firearm except the serialed part determined by the ATF to be the firearm. Your point? Don't beat around the bush or imply, come out and say it.

3) Cost is irrelevant. If you want to talk polymers and startup costs, give S&W a call and talk to their tech rep. Or call up Magpul. They won't give you exact numbers but they don't have to: coming up with a house blend is expensive as all hell. After you get that initial expense, you're golden; long-term costs are significantly lower and quality control is significantly higher because you control the formula and you already have the molds. Whether you're physically making the product in-house or not, it's hard to screw up if the formula and mold are good to go.

Remember that argument that you said was beside the point? The one about pressure being too high? You find me a polymer that can replace steel in a Glock's slide. Hell, let's dial down a bit and find a polymer that can replace the bolt carrier in an AR; walk before run, eh? Let me know how that polymer slided Glock works out for ya. Please post pics. (And... don't use the 22. Start with one of the 9mm models.)

4) "Polymer AR15's and LRR's already exist, they're just not available to the private citizen." You're lying through your teeth or grasping for straws hoping you get one that sounds good. I have (as in, I own, I shoot regularly, and have put about 2.5k rounds through in the last year) a S&W M&P 15-22. It is an AR-15 chambered in .22 LR and has a polymer upper and lower receiver. Colt also has a polymer .22 AR, but it mostly sucks and I don't recommend it. Note the caliber: 22LR. A paltry 24k-ish PSI _rimfire cartridge_. *The bolt and barrel are still steel.*

Centerfire cartridges? Sure. Bushmaster's ACR, FN Herstal's SCAR, HK's XM8 and G36 (both known to melt their own _polymer receivers_, curiously enough...). First two are freely available. Latter two, well, "Because we suck. And we hate you." In any case, the actions of all weapons are steel. Barrels? Steel.

Wanna talk long range rifles ("LLR") instead? Great. AICS, Savage, Remington, JAE, and most other riflemakers offer polymer stocks. *Actions and barrels are still steel.* All of these are also freely available to We The People, by the way.

5) You're correct that ammunition is not restricted (much). As with anything firearm related, I don't envy those who live in Cali or NY. Is there a point you were trying to make in this? Again, be as blunt as possible.

6) Frontier, Plum Crazy, and Olympic Arms all have/had polymer lower receivers. Plum and Oly both have well-deserved reputations for self-destructing. That's sad, because the lower receiver of an AR is under extraordinarily low stress during firing; it's about the same as the recoil impulse the shooter feels and is (logically) concentrated around where it actually interacts with the upper receiver (the buffer assembly and pivot pin).

As for uppers, do you find it curious that the only examples of polymer uppers in centerfire rifles (the XM8 and G36) both have track records of melting/deforming their uppers under non-auto fire? Also interesting to note that these are both short-stroke piston weapons, which means the heat generated by the expanded gasses never actually reaches the receiver; it's vented out at the gas port. The only heat that the upper receivers of these weapons will experience comes from the chamber.

Anyway, Bushmaster actually does make a polymer upper receiver. Reading the prior two paragraphs, do you wanna take a gander at its reputation? Not that it matters, really. If you take a file to... three total places, I believe, the AR is untraceable. I only count two on the rifle in front of me but I'll add that third just to cover myself. Polymer isn't needed at all for "untraceable weapons". You just need to remove their ability to trace it, which is just as effective as it never having been serialized at all.

7) Polymer rifles. They don't exist as you describe them. The actions are still steel. Barrels are still steel. You cannot print out an action that can take the beating of a 65k+ PSI cartridge directly.

8) Polymer ammo. PCP makes good ammo by all accounts; never handled it myself but anything that lowers the weight of ammo is cool and useful. They also still use steel or brass bases for the extractor claw to grab onto. Extreme Polymer Research is much further along, but they only do handgun rounds. Since cases are the most expensive part of reloading, this kinda excites me. Not that the ammunition you use in the commission of a crime is relevant at all to the likelihood of a crime being committed or has any bearing whatsoever on the investigation to catch a bad guy shooter. You should stop watching TV if you think law enforcement can trace a weapon by the ammo it shoots with any kind of accuracy; two research institutes in Cali debunked that one, much to the state's chagrin considering legislation at the time.

9)
Quote:


> I'm not saying, panic, I'm not saying, live in fear, I'm not sensationalizing this situation. What I AM saying is, this essentially gives the means for someone to bang out lowers at 50c/piece or entire guns at a cost of about $20/rifle minus the barrel/barrel nut and bolt...Which you can actually buy on the street as well, for about $10...So, for $30, someone on the street could arguably have a working .338 with ceramic ammo...Capable of hitting 1mile+...With a rifle that's 100% untraceable in any regard other than the plastics that individual used...Because, again, any shooter with 1/2 a brain firing a rifle in that type of situation would take the bolt with them.


Ah, here it is.

You know, I tried to parody this and simply leave your text but substitute in the corrections. Just couldn't do it. It's too ridiculous. You are not buying a barrel assembly for $10 anywhere, to say anything of bolts and bolt carriers. The black market doesn't care about assemblies; it sells working guns. It is beyond absurd to think that a polymer .338 AR with any barrel you could possibly get for $10 pose a threat to anyone but the user, least of all hit within ranging distance of a mile.

You're ignoring the polymer startup cost.
The polymer can't handle 64k PSI.
Barrels aren't sold for ARs in that caliber, which means you'd require custom work to fit it.
You haven't addressed the action, meaning the parts that physically manipulate a round, _at all_.
You wanna know what's a lot easier and cheaper? Buying Russian "surplus". Stealing. Filing serial numbers or using a flathead screwdriver to pop out serialed imprints.

Done.

Unbelievable. I seriously hope you're never in a position of authority.

(If you're trolling, however, well-freakin'-done. I approve.)


----------



## u3b3rg33k

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Honestly, if it was decided that 3D printers needed that much regulation I think they would just be banned from the market...or perhaps only be approved for use by large businesses. I am still not sure which side I should be on yet even. *I am trying to think what would happen to the world economy if all of a sudden there were a million people printing out goods rather than going to a store and buying them...and then what would happen at 10 million...100 million...*
> In a couple years I think we will be seeing 3D printing explode and it is going to make the data copyright infringement debate seem like two old ladies arguing over what tea is the best. Though this building your own gun issue might actually be a problem. No one has really mentioned this yet and I didn't realize this at first, but with the 3D printer it would take nearly no skill to build the gun part. If one person with the know how made the plan and distributed it...some one would just need the file and the software to read it and send the info to the printer. I said earlier how this is nothing new and people can do it with metal machining tools (and even wood as you mentioned), but to do so requires a lot of skill that cannot be learned by just reading an owners manual. As long as I knew how to turn on and configure the printer...I should be able to make whatever I have the designs for. Though the same can really be said machines that can hook up to a CAD program I guess.


Well if the cost per CC is the same as it is for regular inkjet printing ($3-5k /L), making something the size of a toaster could cost you $1500+

If that's the case, whats going to happen to the economy? anyone selling consumables for a 3d printer is going to be filthy, filthy rich.

How much does it cost to run a 3D printer? anyone?


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I'm actually really just advocating that when someone buys a 3D printer they do 2 minutes of paperwork.


Which implies a complication of lawful purchases, and a waste of tax money...some governmental agency is going to have to collect, maintain, disseminate, and secure this information.

It's also a gross violation of privacy and opens up all sorts of potential for abuse.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I, personally, wouldn't mind 2-3 minutes of paperwork when dropping 5-10k on a 3D printer though, to be as equally honest.


I most certainly would, and it would just force me to lie, or to get a printer via other means.

And yes, I am more than willing to break idiotic laws to spare myself two minutes of utter nonsense that no force in this universe has the right to subject me to.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Had to do 20 minutes of paperwork just to apply for my stamp...


Just because you are a victim of red tape doesn't mean everyone else needs to be.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> It would definitely make the individual significantly easier to trace if there happened to be a sudden boom in shootings with plastic/polymer


For someone who apparently understands that people will do what it takes to get the things they want, it's really odd that you would expect little hurdles like these to make an difference. You also seem easily surprised by obvious solutions to simple problems.

If you need a lower receiver and all you have on hand is wood, you use wood.

If you need a 3D printer or CNC equipment and want to bypass hypothetical registration required to legitimately purchase one, you either steal one, use someone elses, or build one yourself piecemeal, just as you would with these weapons you want to control.

If you can get easy training to become a highly proficient marksman, you can be trained as a gunsmith...in the same techniques that were used to make precision weapons long before the existence of CNC or 3D printers.

Every potential "problem" or loophole you have presented is something that is not likely to be taken advantage of on any significant scale because there are easier means to the same end. Every potential "fix" you have suggested for such loopholes is something that would be completely trivial to work around.


----------



## Cheezman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Yeah, it's a ton of paperwork, but that 20 minutes doesn't even take into account all the other added time we have to do. Finger printing, photographs, driving here, driving there, paying for all of it, then waiting for the Federal/State/Local background checks, etc. It's a major pain for the honest gun owner. All so you can have some fun toys ... which make a much better "assassination weapon" than some 3D printer made lower for an AR-15 that breaks after 6 shots.
> 
> I just wish my State and the Feds would stop having me fill out the same damn paperwork, set of finger prints, and photograph every time I want to buy a new Title II weapon/device. My info (and certainly my finger prints) haven't changed in years.


Is a suppressor tax stamp a flat rate (I heard $400) or is it based on the cost of the suppressor it's self?


----------



## BBEG

It's a flat $200 transfer fee for any suppressor, a suppressed (permanently attached) weapon, short-barreled rifle or shotgun, or machine gun. "Any Other Weapon" is a $50 tax and includes things like gun-canes and the like, unless they meet the requirements for being a short-barreled weapon. Interestingly, if you pay the $200 transfer fee on a registered machine gun, it automatically waves the fees for being short-barreled or suppressed.

The paperwork and the wait (6 months ATF? REALLY!?) that gets old fast. Adding $200 to a purchase when these are usually $1k and up buys isn't so bad.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> Is a suppressor tax stamp a flat rate (I heard $400) or is it based on the cost of the suppressor it's self?


$200 to the Feds for the stamp, $7 for "passport photos", $45 to the State for the background check, $20 worth of postage to make sure nothing gets lost, $90 for fingerprinting from a state authorized location, about $50 worth of gasoline in running around, and about 4-6 months of waiting (depending on the backlog) just to to transfer $250 Suppressor.

Of course, you have to repeat the procedure for EVERY Title II weapon/device you want. I figure that over the years, I've most have spent about $3200 worth of paperwork for Title II devices in my collection.

You'd figure that being retired from MSP would cut down on the paperwork and BS, but it doesn't.


----------



## Cheezman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> $200 to the Feds for the stamp, $7 for "passport photos", $45 to the State for the background check, $20 worth of postage to make sure nothing gets lost, $90 for fingerprinting from a state authorized location, about $50 worth of gasoline in running around, and about 4-6 months of waiting (depending on the backlog) just to to transfer $250 Suppressor.
> Of course, you have to repeat the procedure for EVERY Title II weapon/device you want. I figure that over the years, I've most have spent about $3200 worth of paperwork for Title II devices in my collection.
> You'd figure that being retired from MSP would cut down on the paperwork and BS, but it doesn't.


That's a freaking lot of work and money just so you don't have to go deaf every time you hit the range! _Geez._

So, if you were to get an SBR, and have a detachable suppressor, that would be $400, and if you weld it to the barrel, $200 then?


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *u3b3rg33k*
> 
> Well if the cost per CC is the same as it is for regular inkjet printing ($3-5k /L), making something the size of a toaster could cost you $1500+
> If that's the case, whats going to happen to the economy? anyone selling consumables for a 3d printer is going to be filthy, filthy rich.
> How much does it cost to run a 3D printer? anyone?


I almost put in an order for a $600 printer a couple months ago that charged $42 for a 2.5kg roll of plastic...certain colors were more though. And this is with only a few thousand of the printers existing. I would think if they were really mass producing the refills they would get cheaper. Plus when you 3D print there is typically a lot of empty space...you don't make solid objects. I think 2.5kg would go a long way. The only reason why I didn't put in my order was that I think if I wit it out a little more I could probably drop $1000 and get one that is really high quality and perhaps uses the new "resin"...that I don't even know what it is exactly or how much it costs, but it is supposed to stronger than the plastic.

I am very certain I could print off Legos far cheaper than what they sell for in the store...a child on our list wanted Ninjago legos and the cheapest set still was around $35 and didn't even have much in it...we got him something else.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> That's a freaking lot of work and money just so you don't have to go deaf every time you hit the range! _Geez._


I also have a short barrel shotgun and 4 fully automatic rifles, in addition to my 5 suppressors.

It's actually a lot of work to "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The amount of money that I have to spend to exercise my right to keep and bear arms is pretty steep, especially when you compare it to the whining that people do about having to go down and get a FREE ID card just to vote in certain states ... but that is another story.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> That's a freaking lot of work and money just so you don't have to go deaf every time you hit the range! _Geez._
> So, if you were to get an SBR, and have a detachable suppressor, that would be $400, and if you weld it to the barrel, $200 then?


There are other reasons to get a suppressor tbh.

It allows you to essentially add length onto the barrel.

Certain states have length regulations...A suppressor is a way around those regulations.

So, in reality, you could take a rifle apart in 3 pieces and throw it in a back-pack...

You don't weld suppressors to the barrels anymore, either...You typically buy an adapter which acts as a muzzle break/compensator and then once the suppressor is approved, screw it on.


----------



## Blameless

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> That's a freaking lot of work and money just so you don't have to go deaf every time you hit the range! _Geez._


Yeah, but it makes it so much easier to find dutiful, law abiding, assassins and murderers with expensive tastes in weapons, so obviously it's worth it.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> That's a freaking lot of work and money just so you don't have to go deaf every time you hit the range! _Geez._
> 
> So, if you were to get an SBR, and have a detachable suppressor, that would be $400, and if you weld it to the barrel, $200 then?


Funnier still because in Europe suppressors are encouraged for public decency and hearing safety.

If you buy a suppressor, you pay a $200 transfer fee. If you buy a SBR, you pay a $200 transfer fee. If you buy a barrel with a permanently attached suppressor and the total barrel+suppressor length is *not* under 16", you only pay $200 for the suppressed weapon. If the total barrel+suppressor length is *less* than 16", you pay $200 for the SBR plus $200 for the suppressor transfer.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> So, in reality, you could take a rifle apart in 3 pieces and throw it in a back-pack...


You'd poop yourself if you saw my truck bag or my hiking pack.


----------



## knd775

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *u3b3rg33k*
> 
> Well if the cost per CC is the same as it is for regular inkjet printing ($3-5k /L), making something the size of a toaster could cost you $1500+
> If that's the case, whats going to happen to the economy? anyone selling consumables for a 3d printer is going to be filthy, filthy rich.
> How much does it cost to run a 3D printer? anyone?


I know a lot of shops charge a crap load for this stuff, but its really not that expensive at all. About $4.50/cu in. for the material. Running costs aren't that much either.


----------



## F1ynn

Hmmm, a very good point was made on here; How would you trace a bullet ack to a 3D printer gun?? If it takes up to 6 shots to break the printed gun, wouldn't each shot cause a complete change in the barrel, resulting in a 'smeared finger print' per say?


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F1ynn*
> 
> Hmmm, a very good point was made on here; How would you trace a bullet ack to a 3D printer gun?? If it takes up to 6 shots to break the printed gun, wouldn't each shot cause a complete change in the barrel, resulting in a 'smeared finger print' per say?


Well, if you made the barrel with a printer, the pieces of it that become embedded in the firer would be a dead giveaway.









Actually, now that I think about it, 3D printing a gun's lower receiver would make it easier for the police to track you down than if you just used a normal lower receiver, as 3D printers are not very common.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F1ynn*
> 
> Hmmm, a very good point was made on here; How would you trace a bullet ack to a 3D printer gun?? If it takes up to 6 shots to break the printed gun, wouldn't each shot cause a complete change in the barrel, resulting in a 'smeared finger print' per say?


Bullet tracing is a flawed science and is increasingly less accepted as evidence today.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> Well, if you made the barrel with a printer, the pieces of it that become embedded in the firer would be a dead giveaway.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Bullet tracing is a flawed science and is increasingly less accepted as evidence today.


Well, bullets are often barely recognizable after impact, so they're not going to get much from them.


----------



## KOBALT

baby steps


----------



## mikehunt

for the price of a 3d printer you can buy a drill press, a few bits, a jig, and a whole bunch of 80% metal lowers that won't break after a few rounds

edited to fix my typo of while instead of whole


----------



## Kvjavs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mikehunt*
> 
> for the price of a 3d printer you can buy a drill press, a few bits, a jig, and a while bunch of 80% metal lowers that won't break after a few rounds


This.

I see how it could be cool to have a 3d printer firearm, but there's much more to it than just printing one out. You need it heat treated as well and it must be of a high grade polymer or aluminum.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *F1ynn*
> 
> Hmmm, a very good point was made on here; How would you trace a bullet ack to a 3D printer gun?? If it takes up to 6 shots to break the printed gun, wouldn't each shot cause a complete change in the barrel, resulting in a 'smeared finger print' per say?


You can't anyway. This myth has been debunked at least twice in academia (in Cali no less). You're pushing a projectile through a tube sized such that lands and grooves within the barrel imprint on the projectile... all at and past the speed of sound. Those individual characteristics that one sees in the bore of a barrel do not show up on the projectile because they get smoothed out along the length of the barrel; most rifled barrels have a tapered bore, which get tighter as you get further from the chamber and therefor puts more pressure on the projectile itself.


----------



## mikehunt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Polymer AR15's and LRR's already exist, they're just not available to the private citizen...Most are prototypes but, there are a few mainstream.
> 
> Let's talk pistols.
> 
> The G22 is an example of a 90% polymer frame...Or plastic, if you'd prefer calling it plastic...However, on a pistol, the slide is what gets registered with an FFL.


the cav arms style lower is polymer and available to anyone that can legally own an AR
as for the pistol comment it depends on the pistol
on many, including glocks, the frame is the part that has to go through an FFL. Yes the factory slide and barrel on a glock have matching serial numbers with the frame but they aren't the "firearm" legally
on a ruger mk2 the upper receiver is the regulated piece
on a beretta 92/96 it's the frame


----------



## un-midas touch

Could anyone here who thinks this is a threat to their safety please explain why it was NBC, and not the NRA, who released this obviously pertinent and news-worthy article? I mean all the firearm manufacturers must be worried about their designs being "pirated," don't you think?


----------



## Kvjavs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Could anyone here who thinks this is a threat to their safety please explain why it was NBC, and not the NRA, who released this obviously pertinent and news-worthy article? I mean all the firearm manufacturers must be worried about their designs being "pirated," don't you think?


The most popular designs are already being copied between many different companies. I mean, internally you can only go so far before everything is similar.


----------



## Scorched912

Can someone please explain why they are trying to make it so production is printing it and not making it by hand? Is it cheaper or something?

Sorry if I missed something here...


----------



## Scorched912

Can someone please explain why they are trying to make it so production is printing it and not making it by hand? Is it cheaper or something?

Sorry if I missed something here...


----------



## Kvjavs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorched912*
> 
> Can someone please explain why they are trying to make it so production is printing it and not making it by hand? Is it cheaper or something?
> Sorry if I missed something here...


They're mainly doing it to see if it can be done. 3D printers are expensive and impractical if you want a reliable firearm.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scorched912*
> 
> Can someone please explain why they are trying to make it so production is printing it and not making it by hand? Is it cheaper or something?
> Sorry if I missed something here...


The point of this article has little to do with whether it's cheaper to make a firearm receiver by hand vs. printed, or anything else. It was released purely to fuel the push against the economization of 3D printers, which could decimate the "plastic disposable Wal-mart junk" industry if they get into the hands of the mainstream consumer. Much the same way that the petroleum industry pushes to suppress alternative energy sources.


----------



## BBEG

But for so many thousands of other things this can be extremely useful, namely in fabricating small tools on the spot. Creating scaled models of machinery and prototypes is another invaluable use that can bring R&D costs down. The cheaper it is to innovate, the more people _can_...


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> But for so many thousands of other things this can be extremely useful, namely in fabricating small tools on the spot. Creating scaled models of machinery and prototypes is another invaluable use that can bring R&D costs down. The cheaper it is to innovate, the more people _can_...


(imagine this in all caps) Which is precisely why we all should stop fearing ghettofied guns and realize that we should be on the side of the 3D printer!!!!


----------



## perfectblade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> The point of this article has little to do with whether it's cheaper to make a firearm receiver by hand vs. printed, or anything else. It was released purely to fuel the push against the economization of 3D printers, which could decimate the "plastic disposable Wal-mart junk" industry if they get into the hands of the mainstream consumer. Much the same way that the petroleum industry pushes to suppress alternative energy sources.


ooh i can make all my own cheap plastic crap i don't need at some indeterminate time in the future? this is what i've been dreaming of
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Could anyone here who thinks this is a threat to their safety please explain why it was NBC, and not the NRA, who released this obviously pertinent and news-worthy article? I mean all the firearm manufacturers must be worried about their designs being "pirated," don't you think?


why would the nra have any specific interest in promoting this? if anything it could cut sales from their corporate sponsors


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*
> 
> ooh i can make all my own cheap plastic crap i don't need at some indeterminate time in the future? this is what i've been dreaming of
> why would the nra have any specific interest in promoting this? if anything it could cut sales from their corporate sponsors


Totally missing the big picture. I for one am near-dead sick of seeing innovation and progress stifled because someone with lots of money wants more and has the power to vilify technological advance. Aren't you?


----------



## Malcolm

Someone make me a HL2 crossbow please.


----------



## Huzzbutt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Malcolm*
> 
> Someone make me a HL2 crossbow please.


Make one yourself, it isn't that hard, crossbows been using bullets since the middle ages, mostly for birdhunting. So you'll have no trouble finding a simple sketch or photo on how to convert a regular crossbow.... without a 3d printer.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HardwareDecoder*
> 
> Kind of like how weed became illegal. All the big textile companies couldn't compete with how much fabric/paper you could get from one weed plant that grows like 4 or so times a year vs a tree that takes 30-40 years to mature. So they payed off a bunch of moron politicians and acted like they were worried about people smoking it and getting 'reefer madness' next thing you know it is illegal (was legal before 1910 or 20 I think. Can't remember exactly.


Your argument seems to come from http://www.idmu.co.uk/historical.htm or a similiar page.

Now it could be the hempleave ont he scales or the clipart but i don't see it as a reliable source, nor would I see any site of the kind as a reliable source. Not to mention that the reasoning is wel strange. Hemp fibres are not stronger than or better than anything else, Nylon which was on the rise pretty much killed the whole rope industry. Because nylon doesn't rot and thats a big deal. As for paper made from hem you're actually talking about... tada stuff (ass in cloth) back in the 19th century salvaged cloth from mummies was used for making paper, damned moralist banning graverobbing practices....
Furthermore the biomass of a hempfield vs that of an equal size of woodland is well pathetic. 30-40 years might sound like much but generally the area a papermill needs to supply wood is fairly small. The largest newspaper (paper) mill in europe had a radius of 100km and most of that is farmland and towns. Now theyre making magazne paper since regular paper can be made from recycled paper.

And just to clear up any messes.
Guns are not banned in Europe, they are harder to get but well in the northern countries gun ownership is common. Gun crimes are scarce though in the whole of Europe. In the old days reservists had their weapons at home, no glorified .22s but 7.62 battle rifles....
Criminals have a ready source of weapons, either by ordering different parts from machineshops or leftovers from the balkan wars. As for long range weapons: theres muzzleloaded cannons all over the place, might not be precize, but if you're a psycopath with an itch, the state provides.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

I don't know why I didn't notice this before ... they aren't even using a standard AR-15 round, which is a much more powerful 5.56x45mm round. They are using a wimpy 5.7x28 round, which is a much lower recoil round that has about the same energy as a 9mm pistol round.

5.56x45mm 3100 ft/s @ 1303 ft lbs
5.7x28mm 2800 ft/s @ 400 ft lbs
9x19mm pistol 1300 ft/s @ 420 ft lbs
Quote:


> The FN 5.7×28mm is a small-caliber, high-velocity cartridge designed and manufactured by FN Herstal in Belgium.[7] It is a bottlenecked centerfire cartridge that is somewhat similar to the .22 Hornet or .22 K-Hornet.[7] The 5.7×28mm was developed in conjunction with the FN P90 personal defense weapon (PDW) and FN Five-seven pistol, in response to NATO requests for a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge.[10][11]
> 
> In 2002 and 2003, NATO conducted a series of tests with the intention of standardizing a PDW cartridge as a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge.[11] The tests compared the relative merits of the 5.7×28mm cartridge and the 4.6×30mm cartridge, which was created by Heckler & Koch as a competitor to the 5.7×28mm.[11] The NATO group subsequently recommended the 5.7×28mm cartridge, citing superior performance in testing, but the German delegation objected and the standardization process was indefinitely halted.[11]


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> The point of this article has little to do with whether it's cheaper to make a firearm receiver by hand vs. printed, or anything else. It was released purely to fuel the push against the economization of 3D printers, which could decimate the "plastic disposable Wal-mart junk" industry if they get into the hands of the mainstream consumer. Much the same way that the petroleum industry pushes to suppress alternative energy sources.


Actually, given that it was NBC News, I would personally go more with the notion that it was released (the news story that is) to fear monger and push their anti-gun, liberal, agenda. But that is another discussion for a different type of chat board.


----------



## Malcolm

Libruls destroyin' are freedums.


----------



## OwnedINC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> I am not in the slightest concerned about this. Our government hands out much more deadly guns daily to police and military personnel, many of which are MORE likely to be unstable THAN a civilian.


Fixed that for ya =P


----------



## LBGreenthumb

Cool Idea. But if someone kicks in my door I'm going for my M&P 15


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mikehunt*
> 
> for the price of a 3d printer you can buy a drill press, a few bits, a jig, and a whole bunch of 80% metal lowers that won't break after a few rounds
> edited to fix my typo of while instead of whole


There is a big difference though...unless you are buying automated machining equipment you can't just go out and buy them and start making guns. It takes along time to learn the skills to use them.

You can go out and buy a 3D printer, set it up, load a design you got online, and press "Print". No skills needed. Even if it cost more to do I can see people going that route just because it would easier to do. Though, the cost of 3D printers are getting reasonable. For about $1500 you can get a decent one...for $500 you can get a not so nice one, but even that might do the job. I don't know if I'd pay less than $5000 for one that I was going to making gun parts with though, but thought is something I'd have to research.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> You can go out and buy a 3D printer, set it up, load a design you got online, and press "Print". No skills needed.


I think you are seriously overestimating the whole "press print and viola, instant gun". Most people I know who own a store bought gun couldn't even fully DISASSEMBLE a gun, much less assemble one.

Even many of my gun friends come to me just to do a simple drop in trigger job for either guns after they buy properly machined Volquartsen trigger parts that are known to work and guaranteed. And yet you think people are going to download a file off the internet and "just press print"?


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> I think you are seriously overestimating the whole "press print and viola, instant gun". Most people I know who own a store bought gun couldn't even fully DISASSEMBLE a gun, much less assemble one.


Well, that is still a hell of a lot easier than machining the parts buy hand. Assembly would be much easier to learn...a lot guns only have a few parts...parts that would be hard to make by hand, but easy to put together if you have them. A couple former military members that had to clean a gun every now and then could figure it out in minutes and those types of people are much easier to find then skilled machinists willing to make illegal guns.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Well, that is still a hell of a lot easier than machining the parts buy hand. Assembly would be much easier to learn...a lot guns only have a few parts...parts that would be hard to make by hand, but easy to put together if you have them. A couple former military members that had to clean a gun every now and then could figure it out in minutes and those types of people are much easier to find then skilled machinists willing to make illegal guns.


Except you don't have to make an entire gun by hand, only a couple of parts (to make it fully automatic ... or to bypass the Federal control parts). They aren't that hard. Hell, a block of steel, a drill (not even a drill press) and a jig saw and hack saw and you are up and running. Total cost at Home Depot ... $100 ... vs how much for a 3D Printer?



Drop in auto sear for an AR-15 to convert it to fully automatic.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> I think you are seriously overestimating the whole "press print and viola, instant gun". Most people I know who own a store bought gun couldn't even fully DISASSEMBLE a gun, much less assemble one.
> Even many of my gun friends come to me just to do a simple drop in trigger job for either guns after they buy properly machined Volquartsen trigger parts that are known to work and guaranteed. And yet you think people are going to download a file off the internet and "just press print"?


He's actually not that far off...It's a virtual CNC/CAD-base...It would actually be as easy as taking a picture, incorporating it and cutting which, is the point I've been trying to make since square 1...But, clearly none of you own or have worked on one so, it's like smashing my head into a wall repeatedly.

With plastic, it doesn't have to be EXACT, it just has to be close enough.

Just drop in a Gisselle, a CMC or a Timney...None of which are traced, anyway.

Also your "point" about the ammo, I said that...At least 5 times...Less pressure is the entire argument because you can half the head pressure with a Ceramic/Polymer round which is being done already in the armed forces...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Well, that is still a hell of a lot easier than machining the parts by hand. Assembly would be much easier to learn...a lot guns only have a few parts...parts that would be hard to make by hand, but easy to put together if you have them. A couple former military members that had to clean a gun every now and then could figure it out in minutes and those types of people are much easier to find then skilled machinists willing to make illegal guns.


I'm not about to insult one of my employees or talk her down but, she's blonde...I mean super blonde...Like, legally blonde...She figured it out, in fact, it only took her 10 minutes to pick up the dimensions of a pump mount...I guesstimate it would take her about 2 hours to throw together an AR lower, particularly because the entire magazine chamber is empty.

An AR lower is virtually just an elongated rectangle with holes...Drill the holes yourself...In fact, if you were really making this for the streets, you wouldn't require a safety at all...Just a mag drop so...Even easier.


----------



## WR6133

Easier than a 3d printer, fully automatic submachinegun

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2624298/sten-mk2-complete-machine-instructions

These were designed to take 5 man hours to make by a pretty unskilled worker, you can still make it rapidly and easily today with very basic tooling and literally scrap metal

like these captured in Northern Ireland

http://amodestpublication.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/loyalist-paramilitary-improvised-machine-guns/

So for anyone worrying a 3d printer makes easy guns you also better ban scrap metal and basic tools as the guns above are far more effective and easy to produce to any criminal than a bodge of 3d printed plastic and kit parts.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> Easier than a 3d printer, fully automatic submachinegun
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2624298/sten-mk2-complete-machine-instructions
> These were designed to take 5 man hours to make by a pretty unskilled worker, you can still make it rapidly and easily today with very basic tooling and literally scrap metal
> like these captured in Northern Ireland
> http://amodestpublication.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/loyalist-paramilitary-improvised-machine-guns/
> So for anyone worrying a 3d printer makes easy guns you also better ban scrap metal and basic tools as the guns above are far more effective and easy to produce to any criminal than a bodge of 3d printed plastic and kit parts.


Yup, home made weapons aren't anything new. From the Sten, to the Philippine "Guerrilla" Gun, to a host of weapons made in WWII by Russian and Polish partisans, to Bosnia ... history and the world is littered with them.




Good old Barry and his 12 Gauge pipe gun fires every time, doesn't break after 6 shots, and fires very nasty, standard 12 guage shotgun rounds.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> Easier than a 3d printer, fully automatic submachinegun
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2624298/sten-mk2-complete-machine-instructions
> These were designed to take 5 man hours to make by a pretty unskilled worker, you can still make it rapidly and easily today with very basic tooling and literally scrap metal
> like these captured in Northern Ireland
> http://amodestpublication.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/loyalist-paramilitary-improvised-machine-guns/
> So for anyone worrying a 3d printer makes easy guns you also better ban scrap metal and basic tools as the guns above are far more effective and easy to produce to any criminal than a bodge of 3d printed plastic and kit parts.


So, with the touch of a button and the loading of a plastic drum, you can mass produce home-made scrap metal weapons?

That's the issue...We're not talking about a 1-off...We're talking about 100ish lowers per load and that'd take about 6 hours...That's with a polymer subsidiary/resin complicate so the plastic is harder/higher temp.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> So, with the touch of a button and the loading of a plastic drum, you can mass produce home-made scrap metal weapons?


Nice straw man argument ... since you can't do the same with a 3D Printer gun ... either today, 70 years ago, or any time to come (realistically) in the next 2-3 decades.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Why?
> You still need the barrel and slide to be made out of detectable parts.
> Also, the range and accuracy are for junk, if done on a pistol. If you are that close and want to kill someone, use a non-metallic blade. If done on a rifle, who cares? You have range but no reliability.
> Besides, it's not like non-metallic lowers haven't been around for decades. Look at Glocks.
> Yup, on an AR, the lower is what is regulated. As long as you have a legally registered AR lower, you can legally take the upper off and convert it to a .50 BMG if you want. It's the lower that is Federally regulated.
> Enjoy England. Here we have a Second Amendment.
> It's a lot easier to make/buy a reliable plastic part than that to use an expensive 3D printer that costs well over $1000.
> Here is a molded stock for a POS Hi Point 9mm that costs $57.
> 
> Sorry, I just don't see the big deal here. But then again, I've been dealing with firearms for over 50 years now.


QFT. All of it.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Nice straw man argument ... since you can't do the same with a 3D Printer gun ... either today, 70 years ago, or any time to come (realistically) in the next 2-3 decades.


This is what I don't comprehend here.

We're shooters...Some of us trained, some shoot to shoot but, each one of us knows the damage a .308+ can do to a flesh target.

The reality is, it takes 1 shot...That's it. Trained or not, you're not getting fired on until after the shot, where-as if you fire a group, you're not getting shot at till after the group.

That's a fact. Lee Harvey Oswald proved this by firing 3 shots BEFORE the SS even looked to the top of the building. I can name snipers that have proven this all day/every day...I could even get Seals in here that will advocate my point...1 shot to a group is all even the laymen needs.

NOW, you have harmonic tracing, sniper trained SS and the reality is, even if you get the group off, they know your location within 50 feet. Again, 1-6 shots fired in succession at 1/2 MOA will decimate any individual target on this planet.

The argument isn't about a fully auto AR or a fully auto anything it's about rapid fire succession on a target enough to accomplish the job.

This method, accomplishes that to perfection.

Buy the printer, mass produce AR's for pennies on the dollar because you only NEED a few shots.

This isn't Scarface or Good Morning Vietnam, this is real life where automatic weapons aren't necessary to get a dope, then bag & tag...

If you NEED an automatic weapon to accomplish anything, you shouldn't be shooting a gun to begin with because pray and spray in real life, doesn't work.

Right now, there are rounds that exist, that are half the head pressure, arguably travel at the same velocity and arguably pack the same ballistic punch that current FMJ's do...so, again, this is beyond possible and if you're worth a crap, you only need 1 bullet.


----------



## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> An AR lower is virtually just an elongated rectangle with holes...Drill the holes yourself...In fact, if you were really making this for the streets, you wouldn't require a safety at all...Just a mag drop so...Even easier.


Yes. So easy you don't even need an expensive 3D printer to make one, as pointed out countless times in this thread.

Printing guns with a 3D printer is like adding a narrow dirt road as another entrance into New York City, right next to I-95. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change much.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> Right now, there are rounds that exist, that are half the head pressure, arguably travel at the same velocity and arguably pack the same ballistic punch that current FMJ's do...so, again, this is beyond possible and if you're worth a crap, you only need 1 bullet.


Watch the pipe shotgun video above...less than $50 at any hardware store, easier to make than using a 3D printer, probably easier to assemble, and much more reliable. I suppose we better add federal paperwork and tracking to anyone who wants to purchase iron pipe at a plumbing supply store. Surely it isn't that big a hassle to spend 5 minutes on federal paperwork every time your pipes leak and you need plumbing supplies?


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> So, with the touch of a button and the loading of a plastic drum, you can mass produce home-made scrap metal weapons?
> That's the issue...We're not talking about a 1-off...We're talking about 100ish lowers per load and that'd take about 6 hours...That's with a polymer subsidiary/resin complicate so the plastic is harder/higher temp.


Errr you whine people miss your point (when you have none) but you miss the biggie here.

The 3d printer gun is 1 part made on a 3d printer a part that is junk and failed after 6 rounds of low power ammo all the rest is your poorly informed paranoia mixed in with some serious hardcore sensationalism/fantasism/fanatacism, the links I showed are easily made weapons that dont fail infact they are so easy to mass produce the Irish Paramilitaries were SERIALISING them, so if you want to blow up on 3d printers for their ability to produce lethal weapons you better go thermonuclear on scrap metal and infact you best freak out real big time on what most people have in their kitchens and garages that can be made in to decent explosives.

You may also want to ban all bottle blondes as the stuff they dye their hair with is a potent part of any self respecting DIY bomb.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Yes. So easy you don't even need an expensive 3D printer to make one, as pointed out countless times in this thread.
> Printing guns with a 3D printer is like adding a narrow dirt road as another entrance into New York City, right next to I-95. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change much.


It's a method of mass production...Kind of like the cotton gin.

You know that thing they made that could make production much faster and streamline it? Thus evident by the clothes you're currently wearing.

The point isn't that you don't NEED a 3d printer to make one.

The point is that YOU CAN use a 3D printer to make a successful AR AND MASS PRODUCE IT.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Yes. So easy you don't even need an expensive 3D printer to make one, as pointed out countless times in this thread.
> Printing guns with a 3D printer is like adding a narrow dirt road as another entrance into New York City, right next to I-95. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change much.
> Watch the pipe shotgun video above...less than $50 at any hardware store, easier to make than using a 3D printer, probably easier to assemble, and much more reliable. I suppose we better add federal paperwork and tracking to anyone who wants to purchase iron pipe at a plumbing supply store. Surely it isn't that big a hassle to spend 5 minutes on federal paperwork every time your pipes leak and you need plumbing supplies?


So, plumbing supplies, again, can mass produce rounds/lowers by the 100s in a period of 5-6 hours? You know, with no real man time?

Btw, I can make a shotgun with just the tube...A monkey could...But, it's not as good as mass production!


----------



## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> Yes. So easy you don't even need an expensive 3D printer to make one, as pointed out countless times in this thread.
> Printing guns with a 3D printer is like adding a narrow dirt road as another entrance into New York City, right next to I-95. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change much.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a method of mass production...Kind of like the cotton gin.
> 
> You know that thing they made that could make production much faster and streamline it? Thus evident by the clothes you're currently wearing.
> 
> The point isn't that you don't NEED a 3d printer to make one.
> 
> The point is that YOU CAN use a 3D printer to make a successful AR AND MASS PRODUCE IT.
Click to expand...

And our point is that you don't need a 3D printer to make a successful AR and mass produce it. There are already plenty of methods out there that produce safer, more reliable weapons. In large quantities. So you better ban/regulate all of those before you ban/regulate 3D printers because people will use those BEFORE turning to 3D printers in any significant capacity.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> And our point is that you don't need a 3D printer to make a successful AR and mass produce it. There are already plenty of methods out there that produce safer, more reliable weapons. In large quantities. So you better ban/regulate all of those before you ban/regulate 3D printers because people will use those BEFORE turning to 3D printers in any significant capacity.


The methods you have put forth are capable of doing the job, yes but, cannot be mass produced as easily and or efficiently or as cheaply.

Yes, scrap metal is great but, that requires tools.

This requires something you can walk into a business's back door, program, bam, overnight you have 100 guns, that with a change in plastics, could handle many more rounds much more accurately.

In fact, polymer uppers accept accurate barrels, which aren't traced...Could work the trigger mechanism into a push-button so, no real handle is even necessary but, it's still mass produced.

So, what would I be more worried about? The guy that can make 6 scrap metal guns overnight that might be a 100MOA group with 100 shots...Or the guy that can make 100+ weapons overnight that will shoot 1/2-2MOA in that 100 shots?

That's really not a hard choice.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Except you don't have to make an entire gun by hand, only a couple of parts (to make it fully automatic ... or to bypass the Federal control parts). They aren't that hard. Hell, a block of steel, a drill (not even a drill press) and a jig saw and hack saw and you are up and running. Total cost at Home Depot ... $100 ... vs how much for a 3D Printer?
> 
> Drop in auto sear for an AR-15 to convert it to fully automatic.


You say it is easy...I'm from a farm with a full machinist shop and I know it is easy, but to a couple of 19 year olds that dropped out of high school before shop class that would look impossible. A 3D printer's power button would pretty simple to figure out.

Though really 3D printing guns is still a moot point...since really you don't need all that many skilled machinists to flood the "black market" with enough guns so they will be cheap to those that want them.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> This is what I don't comprehend here.
> 
> We're shooters...Some of us trained, some shoot to shoot but, each one of us knows the damage a .308+ can do to a flesh target.
> 
> The reality is, it takes 1 shot...That's it. Trained or not, you're not getting fired on until after the shot, where-as if you fire a group, you're not getting shot at till after the group.
> 
> That's a fact. Lee Harvey Oswald proved this by firing 3 shots BEFORE the SS even looked to the top of the building. I can name snipers that have proven this all day/every day...I could even get Seals in here that will advocate my point...1 shot to a group is all even the laymen needs.
> 
> NOW, you have harmonic tracing, sniper trained SS and the reality is, even if you get the group off, they know your location within 50 feet. Again, 1-6 shots fired in succession at 1/2 MOA will decimate any individual target on this planet.


As you said ...

"We're shooters...Some of us trained" (including me), "some shoot to shoot but, each one of us knows the damage a .308+ can do to a flesh target."

"The reality is, it takes 1 shot...That's it."

And here is the rub, and the point you are missing with "flimsy guns".

When was the last time you took a brand new weapon out of the box, threw a scope on it, and fired one shot and was able to hit anything larger than a barn on the very first shot?

It's called sighting in a weapon. We do it all the time. Every weapon is slightly different when assembled .. even from QUALITY parts ... much less from some as of yet "off the internet" and $1000 hobbyist plastic prototyping goo that wasn't designed to make weapons and has YET to made a fully pastic weapon that didn't explode upon firing even ONCE.

So, before you continue down this route, THINK about what it actually takes to make a weapon that a geek that knows nothing about guns who has a $1000 3D printer and since he doesn't know the first thing about guns, to make even a 100m shot that will hit a person on the VERY first shot. Then ask yourself, will he want to risk 10-20 years in Federal prison for making his own unregistered weapon ... much less actually using it for some nefarious reason. Odds are, they won't.

Your example of Oswald is great ... and just proves my point ... he was trained in the Marines, and he took is weapon to the gun range and fired it MANY TIMES to sight it in.

As far as "assassins" and "thugs" ... they former may have the smarts and resources to do it, but to what end? It's a whole lot easier for them to get a convetional weapon that is very reliable and can actually be scoped in than to deal with this HOBBYIST toy. As for the latter, if they had a spare $1000 sitting around and the brains to be able to make and assemble a custom weapon, they wouldn't be a stupid "thug".
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Btw, I can make a shotgun with just the tube...A monkey could...But, it's not as good as mass production!


And nether is a plastic lower that breaks after 6 low powered 5.7x28mm shots.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Yes, scrap metal is great but, that requires tools.


You mean like a very specialized 3D printer?

As opposed to a common drill and jig saw?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> So, what would I be more worried about? The guy that can make 6 scrap metal guns overnight that might be a 100MOA group with 100 shots...Or the guy that can make 100+ weapons overnight that will shoot 1/2-2MOA in that 100 shots?


The former. Very few people are killed in the US with sub 1 MOA weapons.


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> So, plumbing supplies, again, can mass produce rounds/lowers by the 100s in a period of 5-6 hours? You know, with no real man time?
> Btw, I can make a shotgun with just the tube...A monkey could...But, it's not as good as mass production!


*Ok let me put this in simple terms

Sten Gun - About 5 man hours to make from cheap scrap, Fully automatic (important to crooks the only people this may interest trained shootists are not using homemade crap), proven design, examples made in the '40s and '50s are still working now (so reliable)

3D printer lower with kit parts - Unknown production time (anyone wish to enlighten on this)? , 6 round rate of fire before catastrophic fail (so useless to suppress anyone firing back at you), failed design (on the 1 example), not reliable as 1 example failed*

If you want a 1 shot POS weapon the shotgun shell boomstick is better than the 3d printer.

Like people said the biggest thing with 3d printers will be ripping off lego or other overpriced cheaply made toys, it won't be homemade guns

I notice you claim to have a company that uses a 3d printer. Is this sensationalism actually because if these things enter peoples homes cheaply you will find your business dead?


----------



## perfectblade

why do civilians needs guns in the first world anyway?

it results in more violent crimes. people have an unfounded, irrational fear of government


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*
> 
> why do civilians needs guns in the first world anyway?


Because there are very murders that actually happen when there is a government supplied cop standing right next to you to protect you. Crimes usually happen when the police AREN'T there.

Any more questions?


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> *Ok let me put this in simple terms
> Sten Gun - About 5 man hours to make from cheap scrap, Fully automatic (important to crooks the only people this may interest trained shootists are not using homemade crap), proven design, examples made in the '40s and '50s are still working now (so reliable)
> 3D printer lower with kit parts - Unknown production time (anyone wish to enlighten on this)? , 6 round rate of fire before catastrophic fail (so useless to suppress anyone firing back at you), failed design (on the 1 example), not reliable as 1 example failed*
> If you want a 1 shot POS weapon the shotgun shell boomstick is better than the 3d printer.
> Like people said the biggest thing with 3d printers will be ripping off lego or other overpriced cheaply made toys, it won't be homemade guns
> I notice you claim to have a company that uses a 3d printer. Is this sensationalism actually because if these things enter peoples homes cheaply you will find your business dead?


Change the plastic mix (Called my manufacturer to confirm) add a heat-based polymer and it won't break after 6 rounds. It could last an entire drum. 100+rounds.

It's not a 1 shot POS weapon.

There are also polymer weapons that already exist on the civilian market. Full auto they melt but, semi-auto, they do not melt.

I do use a 3D printer daily so, I understand the capabilities of this machine far more than most of you, apparently.


----------



## perfectblade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Because there are very murders that actually happen when there is a government supplied cop standing right next to you to protect you. Crimes usually happen when the police AREN'T there.
> Any more questions?


yeah and there are more violent crimes that result in death in the US, probably in part because of the availability of guns. in specific instances, yeah having a gun can make you safer. but the easier availability of guns in general statistically makes everyone less safe


----------



## mudman091878

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*
> 
> yeah and there are more violent crimes that result in death in the US, probably in part because of the availability of guns. in specific instances, yeah having a gun can make you safer. but the easier availability of guns in general statistically makes everyone less safe


Yay for made up statistics.

If criminals want guns they're going to get them whether they're legally allowed or not.

There was a time in the US when almost everybody owned a gun and there was very little crime. Now, a much lower percentage of people own guns and there's a lot more crime. News flash, it's NOT the guns that are committing crimes and it's not the guns that are the cause of violent crimes, it's the people. I find it mind numbing that there are so many people out there that refuse to see the core issue at hand and immediately think it's all a piece of metals fault.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*
> 
> yeah and there are more violent crimes that result in death in the US, probably in part because of the availability of guns. in specific instances, yeah having a gun can make you safer. but the easier availability of guns in general statistically makes everyone less safe


Can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Since people love talking about AK-47s ... Even if the United States stopped making guns ENTIRELY it wouldn't do a thing to stop CRIMINALS from getting them.

You do know how many AK-47 are made in the US every year right?

Yes, that is correct ... ZERO ... and yet they somehow manage to find their way into the hands of criminals.

So, unless you have a plan to instantly vanish all guns from all over the world and then wipe the knowledge of how to make guns from every person's mind, book, and hard drive, banning guns won't stop gun crimes.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I do use a 3D printer daily so, I understand the capabilities of this machine far more than most of you, apparently.


Are you at work now by chance?


----------



## perfectblade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mudman091878*
> 
> Yay for made up statistics.
> If criminals want guns they're going to get them whether they're legally allowed or not.
> There was a time in the US when almost everybody owned a gun and there was very little crime. Now, a much lower percentage of people own guns and there's a lot more crime. News flash, it's NOT the guns that are committing crimes and it's not the guns that are the cause of violent crimes, it's the people. I find it mind numbing that there are so many people out there that refuse to see the core issue at hand and immediately think it's all a piece of metals fault.


no but making it harder to get guns decreases the level of violence someone can cause. look at the uk or europe as a whole. they have fewer instances of violent crimes that result in death. when people want to hurt others, they still do but the amount of damage is minimized. that's not a bs statistic, it's reality


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Are you at work now by chance?


I'm not comfortable doing what you're going to ask. I'm not taking pictures of the machine, the location or building. I'm not programming the machine, I'm not making a CAD for anything...I'm not risking my future license just to prove a point.

These rifles are capable of lasting more than 100 rounds and civilian versions already exist that have lasted THOUSANDS of rounds.

Siting isn't an issue and if the Youtubers had changed their plastic mix, added a stronger polymer, they would've had a gun that lasted longer than 6 shots.

Simple changes that cost next to nothing to alter. Simple things that take no man-time to produce...

Hell, he could program the machine for a precision AR AND make the pipe automatics at the same time!


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Change the plastic mix (Called my manufacturer to confirm) add a heat-based polymer and it won't break after 6 rounds. It could last an entire drum. 100+rounds.


Till you produce an example (as the people who actually tried making this thing failed) that statement is nothing more than sensationalist BS

Also even my sten example is pointless. Right here in the Peoples Republic of Not so Great Britain, with all our nanny state gun control that makes it near impossible to legally own even a turn bolt rifle (anything semi auto is totally banned as are handguns, you yanks that complain about waiting periods should see the hoops i jump through constantly just to own a single SMLE) you can pick up illegal weapons for a few hundred pounds pretty easily...... you know whats harder for the crooks to get?...... ammunition back when I was a squaddie there were guys jailed for selling stolen 9mm at £5 ($7.50) PER ROUND. So even here with our oppresive gun control nobody is going to 3d print gun parts not while the real deal is cheaper/easier.

The kind of groups that do make their own weapons (paramilitaries or primitive revolutionaries) want something proven and reliable that doesnt require bulky expensive hi-tech kit to make. Have you seen Khyber pass weapons? These guys handmake in LARGE quantity everything from Hi-powers through to PK MG's manpower there costs a pittance for the price of 3d printing something that breaks they could hire a whole village of people to keep up what they are doing now.

Maybe just maybe in a decade or more we will see very cheap 3d printers that are capable of something reliable but till then this is a storm in a teacup being blown all out of proportion.

Like I said Blonde hair dye is a major component of homemade explosives you better regulate that before you worry about 3D printing. Requiring registration of all bottle blondes and permits to dye hair would be a far more effective way to stop homemade weapons than legislating against 3d printers


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I'm not comfortable doing what you're going to ask. I'm not taking pictures of the machine


Not even a simple piece of paper that says "I <3 OCN" on top of it for a quick snapshot ... like I did with my .22 silencer and machine shop? Doesn't have to show any location, and no, if I wanted something done on CAD, I'd do it myself and make it myself. Just a little proof you actually have a 3D Printer.

I'm just wondering, because honestly, I have to doubt your statement that you have one, especially after saying ridiculous things like:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> So, plumbing supplies, again, can mass produce rounds/lowers by the 100s in a period of 5-6 hours?


Because in all honesty, anyone who actually works with 3D Printers on a daily basis, knows they are SLOW.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Not even a simple piece of paper that says "I <3 OCN" on top of it for a quick snapshot ... like I did with my .22 silencer and machine shop? Doesn't have to show any location, and no, if I wanted something done on CAD, I'd do it myself and make it myself. Just a little proof you actually have a 3D Printer.
> I'm just wondering, because honestly, I have to doubt your statement that you have one, especially after saying ridiculous things like:
> Because in all honesty, anyone who actually works with 3D Printers on a daily basis, knows they are SLOW.


I don't even take pictures of my guns...Silencers or anything...

They are slow but, you're discussing a rectangle, of which you can actually sacrifice most of the lower...Really all you need is the Pmag receptacle and a "trigger"//something to hold onto...IT doesn't need to be a fancy, complete, AR lower...

Don't need the looped edges, don't need the wall engraving, don't need practically any of the holes, trigger guard...Can buy AR pistol grips for $5/per in mass quantities...

Go look at a stripped AR lower with a stage 1 trigger and then imagine getting rid of 3/4 of the frame. It's beyond doable.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I don't even take pictures of my guns...Silencers or anything...


That's fine. I was just asking.

Carry on.


----------



## HarrisLam

A : hey yo man!! you ready?
B : hell yeah!
A : lets do our final check, here's my gun
B : aiight, heres mine
A : dang!! looks shiny as hell dude!!
B : oooooh yeah, that new printer is real nice, you should upgrade to that model after this one too!!
A : yeah, I will see how you do with it first, then decide
B : yeah I guess, it wasn't cheap at all.... anyway, you got your bullets?

A : wait, wat?
B : you bought bullets right?
A : DUDE you said you were gonna print me some kickass bullets with the new printer, oh don't tell me......
B : uh.......AH SHEET!!


----------



## Cheezman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Can't put the genie back in the bottle.
> Since people love talking about AK-47s ... Even if the United States stopped making guns ENTIRELY it wouldn't do a thing to stop CRIMINALS from getting them.
> You do know how many AK-47 are made in the US every year right?
> Yes, that is correct ... ZERO ... and yet they somehow manage to find their way into the hands of criminals.
> So, unless you have a plan to instantly vanish all guns from all over the world and then wipe the knowledge of how to make guns from every person's mind, book, and hard drive, banning guns won't stop gun crimes.


This is true.

The reason the AK is so widely available and used is because it was pretty much a job creator back during the Soviet Union. They put people to work on assembly lines stamping the damn things out by the thousands per day, all over the USSR. They didn't even need that many AK's, but, they needed people working.

Then when the USSR collapsed, there were literally piles of AKs free for the taking, no one guarding them, no one caring what happened with them. They were grabbed up by the truck load and sold dirt cheap all over the world. Due to their extreme reliability, massive production numbers, and ease of reproduction, they were then resold _many_ times over.

Oh and, there are AK's made in the US. http://www.ioinc.us/


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*
> 
> no but making it harder to get guns decreases the level of violence someone can cause. look at the uk or europe as a whole. they have fewer instances of violent crimes that result in death. when people want to hurt others, they still do but the amount of damage is minimized. that's not a bs statistic, it's reality


You are only thinking in terms of things like domestic violence or kids walking into schools with their father's shotguns. The criminals who legally buy their guns. It will do nothing but allow the criminals who don't buy their guns legally to get to do whatever they want. You also got to keep in mind the sizes of the areas we are talking about here. Look at how many police per square km they have in a lot of places in the UK for example.

In the US you are lucky to get a county sheriff to respond to a call until the next day in some places. The legal ownership of guns is the ONLY thing protecting these people...and good dogs.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> Oh and, there are AK's made in the US. http://www.ioinc.us/


Yes, but they are semi-automatic "sportster" versions, not real, fully automatic AK-47's.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Yes, but they are semi-automatic "sportster" versions, not real, fully automatic AK-47's.


Would that really be all that different than a SKS? I suppose you could have the look of the AK with that though. Though an SKS can be setup to look very similar to an AK as well.

Well I should probably say it is hard for me to think of anything beyond functionality when it comes to guns...to me a semi-auto rifle that can fire a 7.62x39 down range is a rifle that fire a 7.62x39 down range. I forget that people collect them and build entire hobbies around them. To me they will never be anything more than tools.


----------



## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*
> 
> why do civilians needs guns in the first world anyway?


Because deer tastes so good...and it keeps them from overpopulating and causing car accidents.


----------



## Masked

Okay.

All of you are claiming I'm trying to blow this out of proportion...Fearmonger...Etc etc etc.

I'm actually not.

YOU can make a polymer/ceramic round right now with the same velocity but, about half the operating pressure...You're literally halving the primer because the ceramic projectile weighs significantly less than it's lead counterpart.

YOU can mass produce AR 15 lowers with the assistance of a 3D printer if you're using the right plastics and cut a few corners. Yes a 3D printer costs some serious money but, quite frankly, just like CNC machines, they fall off the backs of trucks in NYC all the time.

With a change in the plastic composition, these rifles can go well beyond 100 rounds. We could also arguably decrease the head pressure of the round...You could vent the head pressure down the barrel...There are literally over 10 ways to redistribute the head pressure of the round so it doesn't blow the upper apart.

There are already full polymer AR's available on the civilian market that have lasted for THOUSANDS of rounds.

YOU only need 1 shot with an accurate rifle to actually kill something.

The ONLY reason why I/some others are "worried" about this coming to fruition is because with a slight change in the chemical formula, these can be mass produced and garner the same exact results as an over the counter AR for pennies on the dollar.

Buying/making all the metal parts for these to make a 1/2 moa accurate rifle, as you all have proven, is very much a reality.

So, much like a chop-shop (which costs far more money to operate, mind you) we could set the same thing up in a random warehouse and within several hours have 100s of new guns on the street just as accurate as what the cops/military have.

We're not talking about some swiss-cheese making, random hole punching, collection of tubes...We're talking about a legitimately accurate weapon that's being mass produced over a period of several hours.

That's not something to scoff at...and in the same token, it's no reason to ban 3D printers or anything else but, it is something to be mindful of, moving forward.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Would that really be all that different than a SKS? I suppose you could have the look of the AK with that though. Though an SKS can be setup to look very similar to an AK as well.


Well, the SKS is the semi-auto predecessor to the AK-47. While it shares a number of similarities, it lacks them in a number of key ways too. Most notably the select fire capability, detachable magazine, pistol grip stock, trigger block safety vs slide block safety, etc.

But yes, largely you can set up an SKS to appear to the lay person to be an AK.


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Okay.
> All of you are claiming I'm trying to blow this out of proportion...Fearmonger...Etc etc etc.
> I'm actually not.
> YOU can make a polymer/ceramic round right now with the same velocity but, about half the operating pressure...You're literally halving the primer because the ceramic projectile weighs significantly less than it's lead counterpart.
> YOU can mass produce AR 15 lowers with the assistance of a 3D printer if you're using the right plastics and cut a few corners. Yes a 3D printer costs some serious money but, quite frankly, just like CNC machines, they fall off the backs of trucks in NYC all the time.
> With a change in the plastic composition, these rifles can go well beyond 100 rounds. We could also arguably decrease the head pressure of the round...You could vent the head pressure down the barrel...There are literally over 10 ways to redistribute the head pressure of the round so it doesn't blow the upper apart.
> There are already full polymer AR's available on the civilian market that have lasted for THOUSANDS of rounds.
> YOU only need 1 shot with an accurate rifle to actually kill something.
> The ONLY reason why I/some others are "worried" about this coming to fruition is because with a slight change in the chemical formula, these can be mass produced and garner the same exact results as an over the counter AR for pennies on the dollar.
> Buying/making all the metal parts for these to make a 1/2 moa accurate rifle, as you all have proven, is very much a reality.
> So, much like a chop-shop (which costs far more money to operate, mind you) we could set the same thing up in a random warehouse and within several hours have 100s of new guns on the street just as accurate as what the cops/military have.
> We're not talking about some swiss-cheese making, random hole punching, collection of tubes...We're talking about a legitimately accurate weapon that's being mass produced over a period of several hours.
> That's not something to scoff at...and in the same token, it's no reason to ban 3D printers or anything else but, it is something to be mindful of, moving forward.


I think I'll wait until something of this nature actually happens before i'll be concerned. It's a wonderful look into the 'What If Machine', but as of yet, those looking to shoot or otherwise kill people are just fine doing it the old fashioned way.
Lot's of things are 'possible', doesn't mean they'll happen.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> I think I'll wait until something of this nature actually happens before i'll be concerned. It's a wonderful look into the 'What If Machine', but as of yet, those looking to shoot or otherwise kill people are just fine doing it the old fashioned way.
> Lot's of things are 'possible', doesn't mean they'll happen.


Full polymer AR's already exist that are about 2-3 levels of hardness higher than what they produced.

They just did it wrong but, it's well within their capabilities to "do it right" and it would honestly cost less $$$$ then they used to produce that "6 shooter".

Again, not disagreeing with anything that's been said, just trying to get across that, this is closer to a reality then some of you believe.


----------



## Valor958

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Full polymer AR's already exist that are about 2-3 levels of hardness higher than what they produced.
> They just did it wrong but, it's well within their capabilities to "do it right" and it would honestly cost less $$$$ then they used to produce that "6 shooter".
> Again, not disagreeing with anything that's been said, just trying to get across that, this is closer to a reality then some of you believe.


I still don't see it as a concern seeing as how easy it already is, and cheap, to obtain a gun as it is. Frankly, I don't care how many are on the market, it's all about who has them. Just because they're cheaper and possibly easier to produce doesn't mean that there will be mass criminal gang wars with plastic guns all over the country/world.

Current licensing laws only apply if they catch you with an unlicensed/unregistered gun... same with these guns. Put in place laws to cover the production and registration of these guns so there's at least a specific law/regulation in place to punish violators. It won't curb illegal activity, since that's the point... it's illegal, but it's something.

Heck, it might be kind of neat to have them include colors into the resin so you can have custom colors guns. Maybe when my girls are older I'll get them a nice pink gun to target shoot with


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Valor958*
> 
> Heck, it might be kind of neat to have them include colors into the resin so you can have custom colors guns. Maybe when my girls are older I'll get them a nice pink gun to target shoot with


It's called duracoat...In fact one of the kids at a range I frequent has a "pink panther" rifle...

No need to wait for the polymer/resin versions.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Well, the SKS is the semi-auto predecessor to the AK-47. While it shares a number of similarities, it lacks them in a number of key ways too. Most notably the select fire capability, detachable magazine, pistol grip stock, trigger block safety vs slide block safety, etc.
> But yes, largely you can set up an SKS to appear to the lay person to be an AK.


Oops I forgot that newer SKS's didn't have a detachable magazine. I honestly haven't even seen many of the newer ones. I know I've seen guys with pistol grips too. Heh, where I grew up there was an SKS in nearly every pickup window; it was like they were issued.

That is another gun that could be effected by this 3D printing. It is just like the AR-15 in that a part can be modified for full auto operation. I am sure there are tons like that. I know I have heard of all sort of full auto conversions. That is likely going to be the biggest issue with anything legal owners turning them selves into illegal owners, but it unlikely they will do any crimes.


----------



## Kvjavs

I wonder how many people here actually have made their own AR15.

I just finished mine the other day. Total of $700-ish.

Stripped Lower = $140 after FFL
Lower Build Kit = $80
BCM BCG = $160
Barreled Upper = $300
Charging Handle = $16

Just because you make the lower with a 3d Printer, you still need all that. Keep in mind, I got a REALLY good deal on my upper. Quality uppers go between $350 and $1000+ depending what logo you want to pay for, or accessories. It also takes time to install the parts.

I get the feeling that a lot of people are thinking they have a functional lower after it being printed.


----------



## ve1ocity

After reading the article, and watching the firing video, my thoughts are the technology is "here" - Loosely stated.

the main flaw I would like to point out is the overall design, i.e. the cad file, my assumption regarding that is this...

the designers essentially made a carbon-copy of a normal (metallic) AR CAD file, only using plastic instead of metal. Thus the weapon's tensile strength was not strong enough, to the force of the buffer.

Reverting back to some of my mechanical engineering classes i took as an undergrad, my thoughts would be use a more stronger / dense polymer, (Carbon Fiber, Kevlar perhaps). print a thicker "neck" at the base of the buffer, i.e. (where it failed).

the article / video appears to show, the trigger assembly did not fail, I saw no indication of that, (which is the grey area of the AR).

to further elaborate on this, the AR system can be fairly easy changed to fully automatic, with the proper tools / knowledge, (I won't discuss here), hence why the lower receiver is the "legal grey area."

in relation to creating a fully automatic AR using a 3D printer, one could essentially "print," the needed mechanism to make a fully automatic AR.

Fortunately 3D Printers are super expensive right now, however i have the philosophy of, "where there is a will there is a way." in regards to felons / criminals obtaining the needed technology / materials.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kvjavs*
> 
> I wonder how many people here actually have made their own AR15.
> I just finished mine the other day. Total of $700-ish.
> Stripped Lower = $140 after FFL
> Lower Build Kit = $80
> BCM BCG = $160
> Barreled Upper = $300
> Charging Handle = $16
> Just because you make the lower with a 3d Printer, you still need all that. Keep in mind, I got a REALLY good deal on my upper. Quality uppers go between $350 and $1000+ depending what logo you want to pay for, or accessories. It also takes time to install the parts.
> I get the feeling that a lot of people are thinking they have a functional lower after it being printed.


LaRue/DPMS etc...Everyone is actually quoting a year wait, uppers/lowers are impossible to find right now and if you can find them, the prices are astronomical.

That being said, I just finished a custom .308 with an XLR stock, McGowan barrel on a custom Savage SA.

My next project, fortunately, I have the lower/upper right now, is a KA .308 AR-10 with a Krieger barrel, KA internals, Gisselle trigger and a Magpul PRS...I'm waiting on the barrel to finish the rest, is due in Feb/March.

You also don't NEED an upper at all...The only part you really NEED to be metal is the bolt head/barrel...And that's for precision purposes...Realistically, you could use ceramic for the barrel, could arguably even use a stronger resin/polymer but, that's not here nor there.

Beyond that, you could actually, theoretically print enough of the lower that it would be functional...Spring tension is possible...The only part in question, in regards to not printing, as I said earlier is the bolt/barrel assembly...and that really depends on the rounds being used.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kvjavs*
> 
> I wonder how many people here actually have made their own AR15.
> 
> ...
> 
> I get the feeling that a lot of people are thinking they have a functional lower after it being printed.


Very few I would guess. Heck, I doubt that many of the people on this thread who are all, pardon the pun, up in arms about this have even touched, much less squeezed off 20 rounds out of an AR. The level of gunsmithing expertise on this thread by one side is astounding. The level of assumption of the capabilities of "press the print button and out pops a gun" is laughable.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Very few I would guess. Heck, I doubt that many of the people on this thread who are all, pardon the pun, up in arms about this have even touched, much less squeezed off 20 rounds out of an AR. The level of gunsmithing expertise on this thread by one side is astounding. The level of assumption of the capabilities of "press the print button and out pops a gun" is laughable.


I don't think anyone (I know I'm not) is saying it's ACTUALLY that simple.

My point is and has been from the begging that 80%+ of a rifle can be made of plastic.

This is proven by the current polymer rifles in existence and truth be told, they're only a few levels of hardness above this one.

Is that 80% mass producible by a 3D printer? Absolutely. Easily/readily available? Absolutely.

Someone with the knowledge could even make the ammunition necessary with half the operating pressure.


----------



## b3machi7ke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> LaRue/DPMS etc...Everyone is actually quoting a year wait, uppers/lowers are impossible to find right now and if you can find them, the prices are astronomical.
> That being said, I just finished a custom .308 with an XLR stock, McGowan barrel on a custom Savage SA.
> My next project, fortunately, I have the lower/upper right now, is a KA .308 AR-10 with a Krieger barrel, KA internals, Gisselle trigger and a Magpul PRS...I'm waiting on the barrel to finish the rest, is due in Feb/March.
> You also don't NEED an upper at all...The only part you really NEED to be metal is the bolt head/barrel...And that's for precision purposes...Realistically, you could use ceramic for the barrel, could arguably even use a stronger resin/polymer but, that's not here nor there.
> Beyond that, you could actually, theoretically print enough of the lower that it would be functional...Spring tension is possible...The only part in question, in regards to not printing, as I said earlier is the bolt/barrel assembly...and that really depends on the rounds being used.


why do i not remember seeing you in this thread then?? Get in there and post some pics!!!


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> why do i not remember seeing you in this thread then?? Get in there and post some pics!!!


I didn't know there was an OCN gun club. I'll go in there and post. Too many guns to pick my absolute favorite. Thanks for the link.

As far as Masked goes ... He said a couple pages back that he will not post pictures of the 3D Printer he has access to or any of his guns.


----------



## mott555

At this point I think Masked is just some "know-it-all" who gets all his gun information from playing Call of Duty and watching CSI. Or a troll, in which case I'd rank him 8/10.


----------



## m98custom1212

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> There is a big difference though...unless you are buying automated machining equipment you can't just go out and buy them and start making guns. It takes along time to learn the skills to use them.
> You can go out and buy a 3D printer, set it up, load a design you got online, and press "Print". No skills needed. Even if it cost more to do I can see people going that route just because it would easier to do. Though, the cost of 3D printers are getting reasonable. For about $1500 you can get a decent one...for $500 you can get a not so nice one, but even that might do the job. I don't know if I'd pay less than $5000 for one that I was going to making gun parts with though, but thought is something I'd have to research.


You must have missed the part where they had to hand fit some of the parts. A 3D printer is accurate but that accurate. We are talking about thousandths of inch here. Yes, even with the 80% lowers you do have to do little hand fitting. You didn't make the lower on a $100,000 cnc machining center.


----------



## un-midas touch

I can walk up to you with a sharpened pencil and have you dead in less than 1 second, silently and without leaving evidence.

The rate of muggings and home and business robberies (less sensationalized than school shootings but orders of magnitude more common) drastically decreased here in the good old state of Ohio when they introduced concealed carry licenses. In rural and urban areas.

The government is corrupt and cannot be trusted with my safety.

3D printers could potentially empower otherwise underfunded individuals to innovate.

/thread


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> At this point I think Masked is just some "know-it-all" who gets all his gun information from playing Call of Duty and watching CSI. Or a troll, in which case I'd rank him 8/10.


+1 its called a "Walter Mitty"


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> I don't think anyone (I know I'm not) is saying it's ACTUALLY that simple.
> My point is and has been from the begging that 80%+ of a rifle can be made of plastic.
> This is proven by the current polymer rifles in existence and truth be told, they're only a few levels of hardness above this one.
> Is that 80% mass producible by a 3D printer? Absolutely. Easily/readily available? Absolutely.
> Someone with the knowledge could even make the ammunition necessary with half the operating pressure.


The parts of a rifle that cannot be made of plastic are:
upper reciever
action
barrel
trigger mechanism
springs
sights (if they are going to be at all durable)

That's not exactly <20%


----------



## perfectblade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> The rate of muggings and home and business robberies (less sensationalized than school shootings but orders of magnitude more common) drastically decreased here in the good old state of Ohio when they introduced concealed carry licenses. In rural and urban areas.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> I can walk up to you with a sharpened pencil and have you dead in less than 1 second, silently and without leaving evidence.
> The rate of muggings and home and business robberies (less sensationalized than school shootings but orders of magnitude more common) drastically decreased here in the good old state of Ohio when they introduced concealed carry licenses. In rural and urban areas.
> *The government is corrupt and cannot be trusted with my safety.*
> 3D printers could potentially empower otherwise underfunded individuals to innovate.
> /thread


I'd need proof to believe the thing about the decrease in crime, but I do agree that the government and police are not very trustworthy.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*


Might want to go to the public library and check out this book. It gives a total breakdown of statistics of various cities and states on just this topic.

More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics)
Quote:


> Does allowing people to own or carry guns deter violent crime? Or does it simply cause more citizens to harm each other? Directly challenging common perceptions about gun control, legal scholar John Lott presents the most rigorously comprehensive data analysis ever done on crime statistics and right-to-carry laws. This timely and provocative work comes to the startling conclusion: more guns mean less crime. In this paperback edition, Lott has expanded the research through 1996, incorporating new data available from states that passed right-to-carry and other gun laws since the book's publication as well as new city-level statistics.
> 
> "Lott's pro-gun argument has to be examined on the merits, and its chief merit is lots of data. . . . If you still disagree with Lott, at least you will know what will be required to rebut a case that looks pretty near bulletproof."--Peter Coy, Business Week
> 
> "By providing strong empirical evidence that yet another liberal policy is a cause of the very evil it purports to cure, he has permanently changed the terms of debate on gun control. . . . Lott's book could hardly be more timely. . . . A model of the meticulous application of economics and statistics to law and policy."--John O. McGinnis, National Review
> 
> "His empirical analysis sets a standard that will be difficult to match. . . . This has got to be the most extensive empirical study of crime deterrence that has been done to date."--Public Choice
> 
> "For anyone with an open mind on either side of this subject this book will provide a thorough grounding. It is also likely to be the standard reference on the subject for years to come."--Stan Liebowitz, Dallas Morning News
> 
> "A compelling book with enough hard evidence that even politicians may have to stop and pay attention. More Guns, Less Crime is an exhaustive analysis of the effect of gun possession on crime rates."--James Bovard, Wall Street Journal
> 
> "John Lott documents how far 'politically correct' vested interests are willing to go to denigrate anyone who dares disagree with them. Lott has done us all a service by his thorough, thoughtful, scholarly approach to a highly controversial issue."--Milton Friedman


----------



## Kvjavs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> LaRue/DPMS etc...Everyone is actually quoting a year wait, uppers/lowers are impossible to find right now and if you can find them, the prices are astronomical.
> That being said, I just finished a custom .308 with an XLR stock, McGowan barrel on a custom Savage SA.
> My next project, fortunately, I have the lower/upper right now, is a KA .308 AR-10 with a Krieger barrel, KA internals, Gisselle trigger and a Magpul PRS...I'm waiting on the barrel to finish the rest, is due in Feb/March.
> You also don't NEED an upper at all...The only part you really NEED to be metal is the bolt head/barrel...And that's for precision purposes...Realistically, you could use ceramic for the barrel, could arguably even use a stronger resin/polymer but, that's not here nor there.
> Beyond that, you could actually, theoretically print enough of the lower that it would be functional...Spring tension is possible...The only part in question, in regards to not printing, as I said earlier is the bolt/barrel assembly...and that really depends on the rounds being used.


I bought my upper from PSA on Labor Day, the Stripped Lower on the night of the Presidential Debate (2nd, whichever the one that mentioned the AWB), and the rest on Black Friday.

Glad I bought the upper and lower when I did.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> The parts of a rifle that cannot be made of plastic are:
> upper reciever
> action
> barrel
> trigger mechanism
> springs
> sights (if they are going to be at all durable)
> That's not exactly <20%


Incorrect.









Read previous statements.

Several companies already make completed AR15's in a polymer/resin where the only active metal parts are the firing ping/barrel/barrel nut and the buffer spring...80%.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read previous statements.
> Several companies already make completed AR15's in a polymer/resin where the only active metal parts are the firing ping/barrel/barrel nut and the buffer spring...80%.


Agreed ... the metal parts are about 80% of the gun ... not 80% of the gun is plastic. But more to the point, the plastic they use isn't the same light weight stuff that is in 3D Printers ... it is MUCH tougher and a 3D Printer would choke on it.


----------



## perfectblade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Might want to go to the public library and check out this book. It gives a total breakdown of statistics of various cities and states on just this topic.
> More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics)


From the Amazon review:
Quote:


> The central problem is that crime moves in waves, yet Lott's analysis does not include variables that can explain these cycles. For example, he uses no variables on gangs, drug consumption, or community policing. As a result, many of Lott's findings make no sense. He finds, for example, that both increasing the rate of unemployment and reducing income reduces the rate of violent crimes and that reducing the number of black women 40 years old or older (who are rarely either perpetrators or victims of murder) substantially reduces murder rates. Indeed, according to Lott's results, getting rid of older black women will lead to a more dramatic reduction in homicide rates than increasing arrest rates or enacting shall-issue laws.
> 
> Not surprisingly, Lott's model fails several statistical specification tests designed to determine its accuracy, and other models lead to very different results. For example, Jens Ludwig, an economist at Georgetown University, uses a different statistical approach and finds that the movement to shall-issue laws has, if anything, caused homicide rates to increase.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Also your "point" about the ammo, I said that...At least 5 times...Less pressure is the entire argument because you can half the head pressure with a Ceramic/Polymer round which is being done already in the armed forces...


No, it's not already done with ceramic/polymer rounds. There are not ceramic or polymer rounds used in our armed forces. Changing the material composition of the bullet _has zero impact on the head pressure_. Changing the material composition of the case _has zero impact on the head pressure_. The dimensions of the bullet, case, and chamber, the composition and burn rate of the _propellant_, and the points of exit (including size and distance from the source) determine pressure.

You're batting really low right now.

Quote:


> An AR lower is virtually just an elongated rectangle with holes...Drill the holes yourself...In fact, if you were really making this for the streets, you wouldn't require a safety at all...Just a mag drop so...Even easier.


Do you even know what constitutes the black market, or how it works?








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> The point is that YOU CAN use a 3D printer to make a successful AR AND MASS PRODUCE IT.


I've seriously questioned this earlier in the thread. You may want to read over.

TL;DR - you *cannot use a 3D printer to mass produce an AR*. Now or in the foreseeable future, unless some absolutely astonishing discoveries are made to allow 3D printers to produce items as strong as _forged, heat-treated metal_. You're full of crap, plain and simple.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> Full polymer AR's already exist that are about 2-3 levels of hardness higher than what they produced.


There is no fully polymer AR anywhere. At all. The two examples with the most polymer are .22LR and still use steel barrels, steel bolts, and steel carriers. None of those exceptions are available for the quote $10 you mentioned earlier.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> You also don't NEED an upper at all...The only part you really NEED to be metal is the bolt head/barrel...And that's for precision purposes...Realistically, you could use ceramic for the barrel, could arguably even use a stronger resin/polymer but, that's not here nor there.


That previous post of mine? You should read it.

(And seriously bro, if you're trolling us, 9/10. Well done.)


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

I'll check back when someone who isn't trolling has something intelligent to say on this paranoid fantasy topic.


----------



## Masked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> I'll check back when someone who isn't trolling has something intelligent to say on this paranoid fantasy topic.


+1


----------



## b3machi7ke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> -snip-
> TL;DR - you *cannot use a 3D printer to mass produce an AR*. Now or in the foreseeable future, unless some absolutely astonishing discoveries are made to allow 3D printers to produce items as strong as _forged, heat-treated metal_. You're full of crap, plain and simple.
> -snip-


So I'm pretty sure they're able to use 3-D printers with titanium...I realize it wouldn't be nearly as cheap to produce as using plastic/polymer in a 3-D printer, but you're making it sound like it is impossible to do something that we already can (or are very close to being able) to do. I haven't read much of this thread tbh, but it seems that titanium would be an acceptable material to produce a firearm with...?


----------



## BBEG

Titanium is more elastic than steel, which in barrels is counterproductive to how they are designed to work; the titanium barrels you _do_ hear about have a steel liner for the bore, since titanium won't hold rifling or remain rigid. Titanium actions break with significantly more frequency than do steel actions in both rifles and handguns as it can only be hardened to about Rockwell 44 before it becomes brittle. It galls like aluminum (itself a terrible material to use for actions/barrels). Lastly, titanium's thermal properties are... subpar for the tasks at hand. It loses much of its strength past 1000 degrees F (more applicable to rapid-fire and machine gun use than slow fire rifles, but even slow firing the hot-rod cartridges out there will spike the temps up in a hurry).

Not to say that you can't print a barrel; just be sure you aren't near it when the trigger is pulled.

I stand by that bolded part.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> So I'm pretty sure they're able to use 3-D printers with titanium...I realize it wouldn't be nearly as cheap to produce as using plastic/polymer in a 3-D printer, but you're making it sound like it is impossible to do something that we already can (or are very close to being able) to do. I haven't read much of this thread tbh, but it seems that titanium would be an acceptable material to produce a firearm with...?


Not when steel is so cheap.

Yea you should read more of the thread. First class reactionism blindly marching towards technological irrelevance.


----------



## b3machi7ke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> Titanium is more elastic than steel, which in barrels is counterproductive to how they are designed to work; the titanium barrels you _do_ hear about have a steel liner for the bore, since titanium won't hold rifling or remain rigid. Titanium actions break with significantly more frequency than do steel actions in both rifles and handguns as it can only be hardened to about Rockwell 44 before it becomes brittle. It galls like aluminum (itself a terrible material to use for actions/barrels). Lastly, titanium's thermal properties are... subpar for the tasks at hand. It loses much of its strength past 1000 degrees F (more applicable to rapid-fire and machine gun use than slow fire rifles, but even slow firing the hot-rod cartridges out there will spike the temps up in a hurry).
> Not to say that you can't print a barrel; just be sure you aren't near it when the trigger is pulled.
> I stand by that bolded part.


I don't know much about the material properties of titanium, thanks for answering my questions. Always nice to learn something first thing in the morning









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Not when steel is so cheap.
> Yea you should read more of the thread. First class reactionism blindly marching towards technological irrelevance.


I went back and read through it. Was disappointed in all but a handful of posts, think my time could have been better spent elsewhere


----------



## Wattser93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Masked*
> 
> This is what I don't comprehend here.
> We're shooters...Some of us trained, some shoot to shoot but, each one of us knows the damage a .308+ can do to a flesh target.
> The reality is, it takes 1 shot...That's it. Trained or not, you're not getting fired on until after the shot, where-as if you fire a group, you're not getting shot at till after the group.
> That's a fact. Lee Harvey Oswald proved this by firing 3 shots BEFORE the SS even looked to the top of the building. I can name snipers that have proven this all day/every day...I could even get Seals in here that will advocate my point...1 shot to a group is all even the laymen needs.
> NOW, you have harmonic tracing, sniper trained SS and the reality is, even if you get the group off, they know your location within 50 feet. *Again, 1-6 shots fired in succession at 1/2 MOA will decimate any individual target on this planet.*
> The argument isn't about a fully auto AR or a fully auto anything it's about rapid fire succession on a target enough to accomplish the job.
> This method, accomplishes that to perfection.
> Buy the printer, mass produce AR's for pennies on the dollar because you only NEED a few shots.
> This isn't Scarface or Good Morning Vietnam, this is real life where automatic weapons aren't necessary to get a dope, then bag & tag...
> If you NEED an automatic weapon to accomplish anything, you shouldn't be shooting a gun to begin with because pray and spray in real life, doesn't work.
> Right now, there are rounds that exist, that are half the head pressure, arguably travel at the same velocity and arguably pack the same ballistic punch that current FMJ's do...so, again, this is beyond possible and if you're worth a crap, you only need 1 bullet.


1/2 MOA = 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

Rapid fire and 1/2" groups at 100 yards don't go hand in hand... Especially when *good* hunting rifles are typically rated to 1 MOA, I don't understand where you've come up with this fantasy land where people can rapid fire groups that would make a seasoned hunter envious.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*
> 
> why do civilians needs guns in the first world anyway?
> it results in more violent crimes. people have an unfounded, irrational fear of government


Have you ever been hunting? Target shooting? Trap/skeet shooting?

It's a lot of fun. Guns aren't only for protection, they're a fun hobby and a blast to go out and shoot. When you out with your buddies and go shooting, the stresses of work fall away and you have a great time. We aren't all out there practicing for a zombie apocalypse, many of us go shooting to have a good time.


----------



## Wattser93

EDIT: Accidental post


----------



## Philliesfan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wattser93*
> 
> 1/2 MOA = 1/2" groups at 100 yards.
> Rapid fire and 1/2" groups at 100 yards don't go hand in hand... Especially when *good* hunting rifles are typically rated to 1 MOA, *I don't understand where you've come up with this fantasy land where people can rapid fire groups that would make a seasoned hunter envious.*
> Have you ever been hunting? Target shooting? Trap/skeet shooting?
> It's a lot of fun. Guns aren't only for protection, they're a fun hobby and a blast to go out and shoot. When you out with your buddies and go shooting, the stresses of work fall away and you have a great time. We aren't all out there practicing for a zombie apocalypse, many of us go shooting to have a good time.


COD bro, I bet 90% of the people in this thread don't even own a firearm. I skimmed through this thread, got my nine chuckles. AR-15 from a 3-D printer, lawl.


----------



## FiggyFosta

Sounds like a good concept for manufacturing in the future if the application can eventually be used with metals. I am questioning the logic of many of these posts as a few poeple are worried about some kind of criminal activity that would arise out of this process. Seems like a few have forgotten that there will always be bad guys in the world, and it's the person, not the weapon, which kills or injures people. Guns, knives, rocks, pencils, forks, glass, fists, and feet can all be used by people to kill somone. Adding another tool to the infinitely long list does absolutely nothing to add to the bad behavior. On another note, I would much rather be in a gun fight with a bad guy who had a printed gun, and me with my M4, than both of us with real firearms


----------



## b3machi7ke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Philliesfan*
> 
> *COD bro, I bet 90% of the people in this thread don't even own a firearm*. I skimmed through this thread, got my nine chuckles. AR-15 from a 3-D printer, lawl.


1. This is getting old. I hate people piling on COD. Someone plays COD, they must also have a high likelihood of not possessing or shooting a firearm. Also, like Battlefield is any more realistic. Quick scoping with an M98 red-dot, or laying down 100 rounds from the LSAT 1/2 MOA, like getting shot and throwing down a med pack to heal up, or repairing a tank with nothing more than a torch. Oh yeah, battlefield is VERY realistic, and anyone who plays battlefield knows all there is to know about guns, tanks, and everything else. As a matter of fact, I heard that all the guys in the military are retiring in 2013, so all the "veteran" battlefield players can take their spot and show 'em how it's done 'cause they're so leet







/rant

And before you go laughing about 3-D printers, think about everything else involving technology. 20 years ago, no one could have imagined we'd have computers, or TVs, or cars, or jets, hell even cell phones, that we have now. You would have had to put that kind of stuff in science fiction movies, and look where we are at today. Is it possible to mass-produce ARs? Obviously, as I have learned in this thread, it is not. But to "lawl" at people that think the possibility is there in the not-so-distant future? That's just silly, you can't just write something off as being a ridiculous notion just because it's not possible right now
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FiggyFosta*
> 
> I am questioning the logic of many of these posts as a few poeple are worried about some kind of criminal activity that would arise out of this process. Seems like a few have forgotten that *there will always be bad guys in the world, and it's the person, not the weapon, which kills or injures people*. Guns, knives, rocks, pencils, forks, glass, fists, and feet can all be used by people to kill somone. Adding another tool to the infinitely long list does absolutely nothing to add to the bad behavior.


Amen brotha, preach it


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> battlefield is VERY realistic


It''s about as realistic as modern warefare 2 was fun.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> And before you go laughing about 3-D printers, think about everything else involving technology. 20 years ago, no one could have imagined we'd have computers, or TVs, or cars, or jets, hell even cell phones, that we have now. You would have had to put that kind of stuff in science fiction movies, and look where we are at today. *Is it possible to mass-produce ARs? Obviously, as I have learned in this thread, it is not. But to "lawl" at people that think the possibility is there in the not-so-distant future? That's just silly, you can't just write something off as being a ridiculous notion just because it's not possible right now*
> Amen brotha, preach it


Unfortunately if we all continue to show fear and aversion to this pathetic excuse for a McGuyver experiment it may not be possible in the future to use a 3D printer for anything. So while I applaud your sensible view, I ask that you stop feeding the fear with notions like these. We mass produce guns every day. Just not with a 3D printer. And people will build homemade weapons and use them no matter the regulation you put on 3D printing.

Please tech people at least give me the chance to use one before they get banned for consumer use


----------



## b3machi7ke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Unfortunately if we all continue to show fear and aversion to this pathetic excuse for a McGuyver experiment it may not be possible in the future to use a 3D printer for anything. So while I applaud your sensible view, I ask that you stop feeding the fear with notions like these. We mass produce guns every day. Just not with a 3D printer. And people will build homemade weapons and use them no matter the regulation you put on 3D printing.
> Please tech people at least give me the chance to use one before they get banned for consumer use


Did you even read what I wrote?? Obviously we mass produce guns every day, and have been since what, the 1800s?? But is this thread about mass producing guns the traditional way? No, it's about using a 3-D printer to mass produce quality weapons that function with a legit round, and last longer than 5 shots. Let's go back to the tape of what I said, shall we?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> And before you go laughing about 3-D printers, think about everything else involving technology. 20 years ago, no one could have imagined we'd have computers, or TVs, or cars, or jets, hell even cell phones, that we have now. You would have had to put that kind of stuff in science fiction movies, and look where we are at today. Is it possible to mass-produce ARs? Obviously, as I have learned in this thread, it is not. But to "lawl" at people that think the possibility is there in the not-so-distant future? That's just silly, you can't just write something off as being a ridiculous notion just because it's not possible right now
> Amen brotha, preach it


I was DEFENDING the use of trying something with 3-D printers, citing the past 20 years of technology and advancements as part of the proof that it might very well be possible to USE 3-D printers to mass produce ARs. 20 years ago, it wasn't possible to write a program that could use more than a single thread, and it was impossible to have a CPU that had the ability to execute more than one thread. Now, we have a ton of threads on CPUs, even our mobile devices are capable of having quad cores! 20 years ago, was it possible to have HDTV in a 1/4 inch thick LED TV? Not even close, but look at the state of the television today. Is it possible to mass produce a quality AR with a 3-D printer today? Nope, sure isn't, but looking at just those two areas of technology, think about where we will be in 20 years!! I think it's ridiculous to write off being able to produce a gun from a 3-D printer just because we don't have the capacity to do it right now.

Reading comprehension = fail
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> It''s about as realistic as modern warefare 2 was fun.


MW2 was fun...but I gotta tell ya, I'm actually enjoying BLOPS2 quite a bit right now. I still enjoy battlefield 3 over blops2, but blops2 is still very enjoyable


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> Did you even read what I wrote?? Let's go back to the tape.
> I was DEFENDING the use of trying something with 3-D printers, citing the past 20 years of technology and advancements as part of the proof that it might very well be possible to USE 3-D printers to mass produce ARs. 20 years ago, it wasn't possible to write a program that could use more than a single thread, and it was impossible to have a CPU that had the ability to execute more than one thread. Now, we have a ton of threads on CPUs, even our mobile devices are capable of having quad cores! 20 years ago, was it possible to have HDTV in a 1/4 inch thick LED TV? Not even close, but look at the state of the television today. Is it possible to mass produce a quality AR with a 3-D printer today? Nope, sure isn't, but looking at just those two advances think about where our technology will be in 20 years!! *I think it's ridiculous to write off being able to produce a gun from a 3-D printer just because we don't have the capacity to do it right now.*
> Reading comprehension = fail


I agree and also RE-STATE that if you keep saying it to the blind reactionaries who somehow feel it's ok to fear technology then you're adding weight to their fears and increasing the possibility that 3D printing will be illegal to consumers very soon. Don't do that.

Try something like "hooray for 3D printing what can't it do?"


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Unfortunately if we all continue to show fear and aversion to this pathetic excuse for a McGuyver experiment it may not be possible in the future to use a 3D printer for anything. So while I applaud your sensible view, I ask that you stop feeding the fear with notions like these. We mass produce guns every day. Just not with a 3D printer. And people will build homemade weapons and use them no matter the regulation you put on 3D printing.
> Please tech people at least give me the chance to use one before they get banned for consumer use


The only thing I think about the subject of 3D printing pieces of guns is that it's a waste of time. Anything that can be made out of plastic can already be more cost effectively mass produced, and everything else cannot be made on a 3D printer. Just about any part of a gun can be made on a CNC anyway, so what are people worrying about?
Quote:


> MW2 was fun


To me, it felt exactly like COD4, but with terrible map design and a bunch of stupid flashy features that added nothing to the game.


----------



## un-midas touch

I'm worried this will go byebye:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1331835/dailytech-new-material-paves-the-way-for-3d-printing-of-personal-electronic-devices/0_40


----------



## b3machi7ke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> I think he meant 200 years lol
> CNCs have been around for a while, and they are still incredibly expensive to purchase, so I doubt we'll be seeing home 3D printers any time soon.
> If I've learned anything from hitman: blood money, chandeliers are the best weapon.


I didn't mean 200, I meant 20. The problem is that no one here seems to have reading comprehension, which is why I deleted the posts that you have quoted a bit of. Not really worth arguing for argument's sake. Short and sweet of it is, 3-D printing will be a great resource that, with advances in materials, will have nearly limitless possibilities.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> I think he meant 200 years lol


Maybe. It makes a heck of a lot more sense than the 20 number.

And most likely 200 years from now, 3D printing will be good enough to do that. But then again, maybe by that time we will have Star Trek transporters and Phasers and the notion of an AR-15 will be pointless.

I really don't worry about things that look that far out into the future as far as "what if" technologies happen. Too many variables to deal with, and honestly, much beyond 40-50 years from now, I really won't care what happens ... because I'll be dead.

[Edit]

Well, I guess his 20 actually DID mean 20. My points stand.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> Short and sweet of it is, 3-D printing will be a great resource that, with advances in materials, will have nearly limitless possibilities.


Agreed.


----------



## Xaero252

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> You obviously don't know the first thing about ballistics, firearms, or forensic science.
> This is the LOWER RECEIVER of a weapon. There are very little moving parts there, but more importantly, this thing doesn't have to withstand the IMMENSE PRESSURE that a round generates to push a bullet down the barrel at high speed.
> *It's not like they are making a barrel, receiver, or even firing pin and can change the lands and grooves on a 3D Printed barrel, thus preventing the police from linking a fired bullet to a specific barrel ... or even a firing pin or ejector mechanism to a spend shell casing found a the scene.*
> Having a custom lower receiver does NOTHING to either PREVENT crime OR to help evade police identification AFTER the crime was committed.


You obviously don't know how to read. I specifically mentioned that all of that was hypothetical and revolved around whether or not they are eventually able to make a strong enough composite upper receiver assembly with barrel. I carry and wield firearms as part of my daily job, and I have a fair amount of knowledge in forensic science and law enforcement. The thing that is scary about this isn't that it makes cases hard to solve (they will require the same amount of effort, give or take - just a small goose chase on identifying the firearm, which will be inconclusive), or that it makes more people deadly - all of the people who have responded with retort towards this are correct. The scary part is that it puts more lethal weapons in more people's hands. The issue is just compounded by lack of barrel signature and serial number.
On the note of why not just get a full-blown CNC and build your own firearms that way - that costs money. Lots of money. I know, the price for the CNC is comparable to the price of the 3D printing technology, and that carbon fibre composite materials for 3D printing that would be required to make a full weapon that could withstand fire are slightly more expensive than most consumer grade plastics. They are still NOWHERE near as expensive as solid blocks of steel, aluminum, or other potential construction materials that you could CNC. My mindset is that cheap, disposable firearms could be produced and available to the criminal market. Putting more guns in more amateurs hands. Its not that it will increase crime, or that it will enable people to commit murder (they will do it either way, this will just ease the process for them)

Edit:
That said, I don't think 3d printing is a bad thing, and I'm not against it in any way. I'm disappointed in humanity for instantly turning a new(er) technology's head directly toward weaponry once again. We can't seem to get away from crime and war no matter how much we evolve. Such an unfortunate crux.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xaero252*
> 
> The scary part is that it puts more lethal weapons in more people's hands.


Even given the hypothetical of eventually coming up with a way to mass produce firearms, I find this highly unlikely. Weapons tech will have moved on by then. I look forward to a phased plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xaero252*
> 
> The issue is just compounded by lack of barrel signature and serial number.


Since 'barrel signatures' largely don't exist (shoving a dense material down a form-fitting tube at speeds in excess of the speed of sound tends to smooth out indicator characteristics), and serial numbers can be remedied by a few cents worth of abrasive, the issue doesn't change at all. Silver lining is the investigators' jobs don't change at all.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Ah, the memory of failure of over dramatic legislation that was passed in my state and cause my brothers in MSP to have to do tons of extra work, and inconvenience Maryland shooters, just to abide by the "feel good law" than NEVER lead to the arrest, must less conviction of a single criminal.

I am, of course, talking about that silly law a few years back that had the Maryland State Police fire two rounds from every new gun sold and the ballistics of that weapon kept on file. Thankfully, that silly law was repealed since it didn't do anything except delay owners from getting their guns and causing massive over time spending at MSP.


----------



## Xaero252

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> Even given the hypothetical of eventually coming up with a way to mass produce firearms, I find this highly unlikely. Weapons tech will have moved on by then. I look forward to a phased plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range.


I don't see why you think this is so unlikely, we have firearms completely comprised of composite materials already, and we have airplanes made almost entirely of plastics that fly through the air at alarming speeds and endure immense friction and stress loads. I don't think its outlandish to presume that printing carbon fibre (which is already possible, to an extent) in the form of a weapon, or some new composite (which we always seem to be working on) wouldn't be up to the task, far before weapons tech evolves. Especially considering most of the Military weapons development is being focused on defensive weapons technology vice offensive weapons technology - the weapons we have now are more than sufficient - they kill things, and they kill things well. Railguns, and laser defense systems are the two major pushes right now, lowering the carry load on soldiers' backs is the minor push.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> *Since 'barrel signatures' largely don't exist (shoving a dense material down a form-fitting tube at speeds in excess of the speed of sound tends to smooth out indicator characteristics)*, and serial numbers can be remedied by a few cents worth of abrasive, the issue doesn't change at all. Silver lining is the investigators' jobs don't change at all.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_fingerprinting
I'll just leave this here; I know, Wikipedia etc. But the science does exist. Each weapon leaves unique markings on the bullets it fires, and this can be documented and tracked. Hell, they can even match the markings to a specific lot of firearms manufactured since the tools used to rifle barrels or bore them out wear out and that leaves signature markings as well. Anyways, the criminal investigator's job doesn't change, I noted this - all it does is make any effort spent on identifying the weapon wasted time, though there would likely be composite residue on the round, and they would probably not even bother trying to identify the weapon after this sort of firearm was in circulation for a period of time.


----------



## mott555

The biggest problem if ballistic fingerprinting did work, is it would take anybody with a small round file (like used for sharpening chainsaws) just a few seconds of work to change the ballistic fingerprint. That's a lot of work testing, documenting, and maintaining records for something that is so easily bypassed.


----------



## Saiyansnake

Disposable murder weapon


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xaero252*
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_fingerprinting
> I'll just leave this here; I know, Wikipedia etc. But the science does exist. Each weapon leaves unique markings on the bullets it fires, and this can be documented and tracked. Hell, they can even match the markings to a specific lot of firearms manufactured since the tools used to rifle barrels or bore them out wear out and that leaves signature markings as well. Anyways, the criminal investigator's job doesn't change, I noted this - all it does is make any effort spent on identifying the weapon wasted time, though there would likely be composite residue on the round, and they would probably not even bother trying to identify the weapon after this sort of firearm was in circulation for a period of time.


This is a case where reading the article would have made you reconsider posting it, specifically references 3 and 4. To date, only *one* conviction has come as a result of ballistic fingerprinting across California, Maryland, and New York. The California DoJ confirmed the poor reliability of the science. This article sums up the issue pretty well.

Regarding the first part, I've already stated why it is highly unlikely that a complete, working firearm can be printed any time in the near future. No 3D printer can print using materials capable of withstanding the forces exerted upon the weapon during firing. For frame of reference, steel SCUBA tanks can typically be filled to a bit over 4200 PSI before failure... roughly 20% of what a measly .22 LR generates within the chamber (20-25000 PSI). Pistol rounds will typically push between 20,000 and 40,000 PSI. Rifles typically between 45,000 and 65,000 PSI. Even Inconel, an outstanding metal in its own right, requires forging and heat treating to be used as a barrel.

Yes, the materials with which 3D printers can work will improve over time. Yes, the costs will drop, quality and precision will increase, and fab time will decrease. But it will take one hell of an innovation to allow 3D printers of any kind, personally-owned or not, to produce using materials comparable to forged and heat-treated alloys. I just don't see that being done within my lifetime or any of our children's lifetimes, if it's even possible.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Saiyansnake*
> 
> Disposable murder weapon


Yeah, just like a stolen .22 calibre pistol.


----------



## Wattser93

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Saiyansnake*
> 
> Disposable murder weapon


Hammers, bats, knives, and other striking devices have been around for millenia, what's your point?


----------



## levontraut

Gun so not kill people.

It is the idiot that is holding it that kills or harms the people. I used to do shooting for a sport.... Made my own rounds and all. If i left a gun loaded on the table, it will not harm anyone... Only when a moron that touches it and intends to do harm


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *levontraut*
> 
> Gun so not kill people.
> It is the idiot that is holding it that kills or harms the people. I used to do shooting for a sport.... Made my own rounds and all. If i left a gun loaded on the table, it will not harm anyone... Only when a moron that touches it and intends to do harm


Yea, in all my years handling firearms I have never heard of a situation where a gun picked itself up and went around shooting people. This is about as likely to happen as a car driving itself around town running people over.


----------



## b3machi7ke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *levontraut*
> 
> Gun so not kill people.
> It is the idiot that is holding it that kills or harms the people. I used to do shooting for a sport.... Made my own rounds and all. If i left a gun loaded on the table, it will not harm anyone... Only when a moron that touches it and intends to do harm
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, in all my years handling firearms I have never heard of a situation where a gun picked itself up and went around shooting people. This is about as likely to happen as a car driving itself around town running people over.
Click to expand...

*looks up self driving Google car*









Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## WhiteCrane

I am completely sick of the sensationalism around printing guns. You can buy guns at Wal-Mart, for a heck of a lot less money and usually without a background check.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteCrane*
> 
> I am completely sick of the sensationalism around printing guns. You can buy guns at Wal-Mart, for a heck of a lot less money and usually without a background check.


Really? You can't in Canada. That doesn't stop criminals from getting guns, though.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteCrane*
> 
> I am completely sick of the sensationalism around printing guns. You can buy guns at Wal-Mart, for a heck of a lot less money *and with* a background check.


Fixed.


----------



## pratesh

Damn, DIY just got scary. Maybe not now, but it has the ability to become something frightening in the future.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pratesh*
> 
> Damn, DIY just got scary. Maybe not now, but it has the ability to become something frightening in the future.


Oh and you don't consider 2 decades of exchanging bomb plans and explosive formulas on the internet scary?


----------



## DayoftheGreek

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Oh and you don't consider 2 decades of exchanging bomb plans and explosive formulas on the internet scary?


Wait until people figure out what they can do with some fertilizer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Oh and you don't consider 2 decades of exchanging bomb plans and explosive formulas on the internet scary?


Yeah, and it's not exactly hard to manufacture flash powder... well, it might be hard without blowing yourself up.

You can even buy explosives in the US legally. Feeling safe?


----------



## WhiteCrane

This in no way make firearms more accessible to anyone. People who are amazed / frightened by this are simply unaware of how easy it already is to obtain a firearm. Very few places in USA require a background check for the purchase of a pistol. For rifles / shotguns, almost nowhere at all requires one.

Wait until people realize what harm can be done with kitchen knives, or fertilizer. Seriously, there are easier ways to acquire a gun than paying $250,000 for a 3d printer.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteCrane*
> 
> This in no way make firearms more accessible to anyone. People who are amazed / frightened by this are simply unaware of how easy it already is to obtain a firearm. Very few places in USA require a background check for the purchase of a pistol. For rifles / shotguns, almost nowhere at all requires one.
> Wait until people realize what harm can be done with kitchen knives, or fertilizer. Seriously, there are easier ways to acquire a gun than paying $250,000 for a 3d printer.


People love to mis-place responsibility. Rather than blame the sicko's that are willing to shoot and kill some one in cold blood they blame and inanimate object. When people crash their cars they don't blame the car....


----------



## BBEG

If you purchase a firearm from a licensed dealer (one holding a Federal Firearm License), then you get a background check. Period. There is no exception to this at all. The dealer has no leeway in this and they are audited more frequently than ever before, now that the ATF is starting to use computers to replace the paper forms and doing audits becomes less costly and time-intensive.

If you purchase a firearm from an individual who does not sell firearms for a living, you are not required to get a background check. They can still do one, however, or require transfer paperwork the ATF has available on their website. If the seller has reason to believe the person they are selling to is not legally permitted to buy or possess the weapon, then both parties are legally in the wrong. If the seller does not know or has no reason to believe the person they are selling to cannot legally buy or possess the weapon, then the seller is cleared but the buyer is still in the wrong.

I've bought from individuals and FFLs. If anything at all strikes you as shady, just contact your local police and have them run the numbers on the firearm and give them the description of the person you bought from / sold to.

Pretty much anywhere you go in the world you can easily acquire firearms. In the US it's simply easier to do so _legally_, since firearm ownership and carrying is not demonized as it is elsewhere (some states/municipalities excepting).


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> When people crash their cars they don't blame the car....


Remember that Toyota prius recall?
Quote:


> In August 2010, the Wall St. Journal reported that experts at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration had examined the "black boxes" of 58 vehicles involved in sudden-acceleration reports. The study found that in 35 of the cases, the brakes weren't applied at the time of the crash. In nine other cases in the same study, the brakes were used only at the last moment before impact.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> Remember that Toyota prius recall?


Well I guess that means most of the human race is incapable of accepting blame, or fault. such a same.

idontwanttoliverhereanymore.jpg


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> Well I guess that means most of the human race is incapable of accepting blame, or fault. such a same.
> *idontwanttoliverhereanymore.jpg*


meme's are destroying the internet, now accept your blame for that.


----------



## RX7-2nr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteCrane*
> 
> Very few places in USA require a background check for the purchase of a pistol. For rifles / shotguns, almost nowhere at all requires one.


This is completely and utterly false.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> meme's are destroying the internet, now accept your blame for that.


/b/ and "The bad part of youtube" did it!!!

TWO ROTOR NUTS IN A ROW!!!


----------



## RX7-2nr

/brofist


----------



## FiggyFosta

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> *looks up self driving Google car*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


*Comes to a realization that a PERSON has to turn on or program the computer that runs the car*...







This is an argument that cannot be debated any other way. There is ALWAYS a person behind a crime, not an object.


----------



## Jarhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RX7-2nr*
> 
> This is completely and utterly false.


No kidding.

As for the topic itself, I've been railing about this since I heard about it. There IS way to make firearms homebuildable(already happening in point of fact), but a 3d printer is simply the wrong tool. A benchtop CNC mill and minilathe will work for machining handguns and small parts. For rifles you just need a full size lathe and mill. These guys are looking at 3D Printers like they are magic, they aren't.


----------



## b3machi7ke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FiggyFosta*
> 
> *Comes to a realization that a PERSON has to turn on or program the computer that runs the car*...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an argument that cannot be debated any other way. There is ALWAYS a person behind a crime, not an object.


wow...way to be hyperserious bro...was making a joke about how people say a car can't drive itself, and now it can...obviously someone has to turn it on. wasn't debating anything, making a joke. I knew i should have stayed out of this thread. The quote said it's as likely as a car driving itself around town. And guess what, cars can now drive themselves around town, as evidenced by google's cars. I didn't say the car was ultimately responsible instead of the person that turned it on, and re-wrote the software to mow people down, just that it was as likely as a car driving itself around, which again, is now possible. Way to go off the deep end, another reading comprehension = fail


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> Way to go off the deep end, another reading comprehension = fail


Actually, this is the second time that you've basically blamed YOUR writing skills on someone else reading comprehension. He comprehended what you wrote. It isn't his fault you can't communicate effectively in the written word.

If you are trying to make a joke, maybe you should try something like "/sarcasm" ... same with things like 20 years.

I'm just saying.


----------



## perfectblade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FiggyFosta*
> 
> *Comes to a realization that a PERSON has to turn on or program the computer that runs the car*...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an argument that cannot be debated any other way. There is ALWAYS a person behind a crime, not an object.


i don't really see what point you are trying to make with this argument.

1. a lot of people are insane or just dumb
2. guns make any person more dangerous

your argument would make sense if you assume people can be trusted, but they can't


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *perfectblade*
> 
> i don't really see what point you are trying to make with this argument.
> 1. a lot of people are insane or just dumb
> 2. guns make any person more dangerous
> your argument would make sense if you assume people can be trusted, but they can't


I think the point he, and every other gun owner, is making is ...

1. a lot of people are insane or just dumb
2. fertilizer and diesel fuel make any person more dangerous

Number 1 is the problem, not what ever you want to put in number 2 to "blame". Doesn't matter if it is a gun, a sword, a bomb, a baseball bat, or even a box cutter. It's the person, not the inanimate object. People who blame inanimate objects do so for one, and ONLY ONE reason ... political.


----------



## Ghoxt

Most are missing the real Hysteria inducing fact about this future tech even though they are saying it in different ways but hardly articulating it. The imagined is ALWAYS more frightening than the Real. /thread

But I'll continue,







Even if this existed today, the world would go on and users of high tech 3d printers capable of making weapons grade...um weapons, would obviously end up having to jump through some hoops upon either registering at the machine purchase level or "dangerous" Materials purchase level, "After someone dies."

And even then, this would have to be litigated, at local state, and federal levels.Anyways, Yes the law usually and reacts to a single death moreso than thousands, especially if a deadly situation entails a ptential backdoor incentive from manufacturers to ignore mass deaths or there's money to be made by creating a control industry. Welcome to the USA.

Areas of 3D Printer imagined hysteria:

Airports and "omg this would bypass security" - I'll hold comment on existing things of this nature already.
Two Day Waiting period state laws for weapons purchase - John Public gets into argument and wants to buy a deadly weapon now to take out his wife's secret lover. - This tech brings nothing new or easier to the reaction. Hell a baking period might be longer with this...
12 year old Kids - will take a 3d printed gun / projectile to school. Again there's nothing novel here.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteCrane*
> 
> I am completely sick of the sensationalism around printing guns. You can buy guns at Wal-Mart, for a heck of a lot less money and usually without a background check.


*Looks at what state you are from*

That explains the crazy statement, Old Bloomberg has you brainwashed into thinking you can do insane things like you just said.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteCrane*
> 
> This in no way make firearms more accessible to anyone. People who are amazed / frightened by this are simply unaware of how easy it already is to obtain a firearm. Very few places in USA require a background check for the purchase of a pistol. For rifles / shotguns, almost nowhere at all requires one.
> Wait until people realize what harm can be done with kitchen knives, or fertilizer. Seriously, there are easier ways to acquire a gun than paying $250,000 for a 3d printer.


Holy crap, you are just going wild with the crazy, aren't you?

Let me clarify what you are thinking and trying to say....

"You can purchase a firearm ILLEGALLY almost anywhere!"

You see, this is why gun LAWS do not work, because CRIMINALS don't follow the LAW, that is why the are CRIMINALS!

Now if you want to purchase a gun legally, you are going to run into background checks, in some states waiting periods, so on and so forth. There are a few states, god bless my state of Oregon, where two law abiding citizens can privately sell firearms between each other. The USPS will even gladly mail them for you with notification, insurance, adult signature required.

In almost every situation where a LEGAL firearm transfer takes place, there are going to be checks, period! That is why NICS is used, a nationwide federal level system....

National Instant Criminal Background Check System.

Man, Bloomberg has you people from New York scared of your own shadows!

EDIT:

In the event I haven't made it clear....

These all pertain to LEGAL possession and transfer of firearms. Since criminals do not care about the law, every point is moot, as they are just going to ignore the law, because they are criminals. Get it? Criminals are criminals because they ignore the law.....so they aren't going to follow any law.....because they are criminals.....

Legal vs Illegal.....
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> wow...way to be hyperserious bro...was making a joke about how people say a car can't drive itself, and now it can...obviously someone has to turn it on. wasn't debating anything, making a joke. I knew i should have stayed out of this thread. The quote said it's as likely as a car driving itself around town. And guess what, cars can now drive themselves around town, as evidenced by google's cars. I didn't say the car was ultimately responsible instead of the person that turned it on, and re-wrote the software to mow people down, just that it was as likely as a car driving itself around, which again, is now possible. Way to go off the deep end, another reading comprehension = fail


Don't worry, I got the joke!


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

So, back on topic for a bit. Since the video seems to have been shot on July 27 ... what has happened since then? I mean if 3D Printing of guns is so "great", now come now 5 months later, we haven't seen something that now fires 7 or 10 shots without blowing up? I mean that is the supposed great advantage that some claim .... test, make changes, retest, etc. all very quickly (generally overnight).


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> So, back on topic for a bit. Since the video seems to have been shot on July 27 ... what has happened since then? I mean if 3D Printing of guns is so "great", now come now 5 months later, we haven't seen something that now fires 7 or 10 shots without blowing up? I mean that is the supposed great advantage that some claim .... test, make changes, retest, etc. all very quickly (generally overnight).


There is now a version that pops out 40mm HE rounds, is accurate enough to castrate a mosquito from 1345 Meters, is entirely plastic and can even be ordered in a fetching shade of silver however we aren't in the know so clearly will never see one but should definitely demand legislation against 3D printers ASAP

*EDIT* It also plays dixie when you turn the saftey off


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> There is now a version that pops out 40mm HE rounds, is accurate enough to castrate a mosquito from 1345 Meters, is entirely plastic and can even be ordered in a fetching shade of silver however we aren't in the know so clearly will never see one but should definitely demand legislation against 3D printers ASAP
> *EDIT* It also plays dixie when you turn the saftey off


Don't forget the melting bullets themselves, completely untraceable as the temperature of the human body can melt them......but not the thousands of degrees and insane pressure in the barrel....ignore that.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Don't forget the melting bullets themselves, completely untraceable as the temperature of the human body can melt them......but not the thousands of degrees and insane pressure in the barrel....ignore that.


My favorite idea was getting a bullet made of sodium; it won't leave any barrel signatures, but sodium is so uncommon that it will lead the police straight to you.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> There is now a version that pops out 40mm HE rounds ...


That wouldn't concern me. It's already legal to own grenade launchers and you don't have to do anything special for the launcher. Now the AMMO for them, that is another story. Each round is a Title II device.









Besides, 40mm grenades are MUCH lower energy shells than a rifle round.


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> That wouldn't concern me. It's already legal to own grenade launchers and you don't have to do anything special for the launcher.


You keep saying these things I will grease myself up and try swimming across then claim political asylum.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> You keep saying these things I will grease myself up and try swimming across then claim political asylum.


The launchers are basically just considered "flare launchers"









http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/37mm_Launchers.html

Well, technically they are 37mm launchers, not the 40mm like the military uses, but you get the idea.









That same site makes a host of "adapters" that will allow you to legally even fire shotgun rounds through them, launch flares, etc.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> The launchers are basically just considered "flare launchers"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/37mm_Launchers.html
> Well, technically they are 37mm launchers, not the 40mm like the military uses, but you get the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That same site makes a host of "adapters" that will allow you to legally even fire shotgun rounds through them, launch flares, etc.


Don't forget about the golf ball launcher adapter....

Those are hilariously fun, really improved my score on the course as well.

700 Yard Par 4? The hell it is.........


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> You keep saying these things I will grease myself up and try swimming across then claim political asylum.


more and more place's are adopting open carry here









Personally, Let them print all the guns they want. Making a "Fire Arm" is relatively easy, as other poster's have pointer out(yet not a single mention of a Spud Gun... We made those as kids, Every bit as deadly as a "real firearm" and can be made for next to nothing, pretty darn accurate, and pack's one hell of a punch, You can also fire a heck of a lot more "spuds" than those printed guns can... The last spud gun we made(few years back) would go though an average car or truck door(at close range*) and was safe to use(when loaded properly...).


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Don't forget about the golf ball launcher adapter....
> Those are hilariously fun, really improved my score on the course as well.
> 700 Yard Par 4? The hell it is.........


----------



## WR6133

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> The launchers are basically just considered "flare launchers"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/37mm_Launchers.html
> Well, technically they are 37mm launchers, not the 40mm like the military uses, but you get the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That same site makes a host of "adapters" that will allow you to legally even fire shotgun rounds through them, launch flares, etc.


Laws on this side are crazy, basically a series of knee-jerk reactions to various shootings over the past 25 years have led to a situation where legal ownership of bolt action centrefire rifles (any semi-auto centerfire is banned) is insanely difficult, I am actually at a stage where I plan to hand in my firearms certificate and have a SMLE thats been in family for 60+ years deactivated as shooting/owning the thing is now too much of a ballache. Shotguns are licenced in a different way and for double barrel (or pump with no more than 3 round tube) the permit is easier (though still a ballache) to get as long as you can meet stringent rules on storage (often requiring approved safes bolted to walls). If you do own a firearm and shoot a crook breaking in to your home/raping your wife you will likely end up behind bars as we have no real "castle laws" so if some pinko commie judge/jury thinks you over-reacted you are screwed. Also all handguns are banned though if you really want one £300 (or less sometimes) and less than an hour in certain cities will gain you one.... Like I said in an earlier post "Peoples Republic of Not so Great Britain" (leave your civil liberties at the border).

Our Nanny state would likely ban 3D printers on the evidence in that OP


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> more and more place's are adopting open carry here


Yup.

The majority of the states (nearly 2/3rds) are now "Shall Issue" states, meaning that the state has to PROVE that you are a danger to society before they deny you the right to carry a gun, and as Khaotic said, more and more localities are allowing people to "open carry", meaning you don't even need a permit to carry a gun, so long as you are an adult, non-felon, and the weapon is in plain sight.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Yup.
> The majority of the states (nearly 2/3rds) are now "Shall Issue" states, meaning that the state has to PROVE that you are a danger to society before they deny you the right to carry a gun, and as Khaotic said, more and more localities are allowing people to "open carry", meaning you don't even need a permit to carry a gun, so long as you are an adult, non-felon, and the weapon is in plain sight.


I can't say this with 100% certinty but I feel this is what was intended by our Second amendment. In my experience people who follow and practice open cary(legally follow) do not commit violent crime's.

My fear is Concealed Carry, As a "Gun Nut" I like to know who is armed, and who is not. Thankfully most people haven't the slightest ideal how to actually conceal a firearm... The one's who do know kinda freak me out...


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WR6133*
> 
> Laws on this side are crazy, basically a series of knee-jerk reactions to various shootings over the past 25 years have led to a situation where legal ownership of bolt action centrefire rifles (any semi-auto centerfire is banned) is insanely difficult, I am actually at a stage where I plan to hand in my firearms certificate and have a SMLE thats been in family for 60+ years deactivated as shooting/owning the thing is now too much of a ballache. Shotguns are licenced in a different way and for double barrel (or pump with no more than 3 round tube) the permit is easier (though still a ballache) to get as long as you can meet stringent rules on storage (often requiring approved safes bolted to walls). If you do own a firearm and shoot a crook breaking in to your home/raping your wife you will likely end up behind bars as we have no real "castle laws" so if some pinko commie judge/jury thinks you over-reacted you are screwed. Also all handguns are banned though if you really want one £300 (or less sometimes) and less than an hour in certain cities will gain you one.... Like I said in an earlier post "Peoples Republic of Not so Great Britain" (leave your civil liberties at the border).
> Our Nanny state would likely ban 3D printers on the evidence in that OP


It was said before in this thread, and by many many people.

"Gun Restriction only remove's guns from proper, safe owner's. While allowing Criminals to have firepower.."


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> I can't say this with 100% certinty but I feel this is what was intended by our Second amendment. In my experience people who follow and practice open cary(legally follow) do not commit violent crime's.
> My fear is Concealed Carry, As a "Gun Nut" I like to know who is armed, and who is not. Thankfully most people haven't the slightest ideal how to actually conceal a firearm... The one's who do know kinda freak me out...


Funny thing is lots of places will hit you with concealed if you don't have a holster (or a CCW license), or unless you are blatantly brandishing it, which usually brings a host of other problems. I remember seeing a guy get arrested on COPS for having a 9mm in his car door stash, even though it was plainly visible.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Funny thing is lots of places will hit you with concealed if you don't have a holster (or a CCW license), or are blatantly brandishing it, which usually brings a host of other problems. I remember seeing a guy get arrested on COPS for having a 9mm in his car door stash, even though it was plainly visible.


I am so thankful that it is hard to get a CC license! If its loaded, hidden from my view and easily accessible by a person other than myself, I view it as a threat to me and those around me(friends, family.. you get the idea).

On the other end of the spectrum, Seeing someone with a pistol strapped to his hip/leg in plain view or walking around with a shotgun/rifle doesn't bother me in the slightest.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> I am so thankful that it is hard to get a CC license! If its loaded, hidden from my view and easily accessible by a person other than myself, I view it as a threat to me and those around me(friends, family.. you get the idea).
> On the other end of the spectrum, Seeing someone with a pistol strapped to his hip/leg in plain view or walking around with a shotgun/rifle doesn't bother me in the slightest.


Lol my grammie just got done with her classes and now can carry a concealed weapon legally. I'm so proud of her


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Lol my grammie just got done with her classes and now can carry a concealed weapon legally. I'm so proud of her


lol, Don't mess with that Grandma! Your lucky if she just thunmps ya with her purse!


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> I can't say this with 100% certinty but I feel this is what was intended by our Second amendment. In my experience people who follow and practice open cary(legally follow) do not commit violent crime's.
> 
> My fear is Concealed Carry, As a "Gun Nut" I like to know who is armed, and who is not. Thankfully most people haven't the slightest ideal how to actually conceal a firearm... The one's who do know kinda freak me out...


Agreed, that is what this part means "... the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." If having to pay a fee, go through a massive background check even when they haven't been convicted of any crime in the past, etc isn't an "infringement", nothing is.

Oddly enough, most LEO friends of mine I talk to in open carry states (like Pennsylvania), more often than not say they have more issues with people who are doing open carry than concealed carry. Mainly because many people who live in PA still don't realize that people can do it legally and most people don't open carry, so when they see someone doing it, they freak out. There is something to be said for CCW.

As far as most people who do carry (either openly or concealed) and ESPECIALLY those of us who are Title II weapon owners, do have a MUCH lower rate of crime than the average citizen, and in some cases, even LEO's themselves. Here is a little bit of trivia for you to annoy your paranoid, anti-gun friends ... When you get on the subject of fully automatic weapons, and invariably some will say, "Only police and soldiers should have them, too many people are killed by machine guns, even the legally owned ones!" You can look them in the eye and call BULL on them. Since 1934, when machine guns became Title II, do you know how many people have been killed by legally owned and registered fully automatic weapons? TWO ... and one of the people who murdered someone with it was a COP who was robbing a bank!


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> lol, Don't mess with that Grandma! Your lucky if she just thunmps ya with her purse!


Maybe YOUR grandma ... her is my grandma.


----------



## Infinitegrim

Reading the comments in this thread makes it very easy for me to see who is informed about guns, and who isn't.

Its pretty funny, yet saddening at the same time.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Maybe YOUR grandma ... her is my grandma.


That just made my day! both my grandmother's are very "anti-gun"....


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> My fear is Concealed Carry, As a "Gun Nut" I like to know who is armed, and who is not. Thankfully most people haven't the slightest ideal how to actually conceal a firearm... The one's who do know kinda freak me out...


Well, the main problem with open carry is that it scares a lot of people, and if criminals know that you have a gun, they're probably more likely to shoot you. The only thing a concealed carry permit allows you to do is to conceal a gun without getting time in prison; criminals will conceal guns regardless.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> My fear is Concealed Carry, As a "Gun Nut" I like to know who is armed, and who is not. Thankfully most people haven't the slightest ideal how to actually conceal a firearm... The one's who do know kinda freak me out...


This Florida resident says *deal with it.*


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> Well, the main problem with open carry is that it scares a lot of people, and if criminals know that you have a gun, they're probably more likely to shoot you.


Actually, statistics prove the opposite.

About twenty years ago, rental car places used to put little stickers on rental cars and anyone could easily identify people who were most likely from out of state in places like Orlando, FL. Criminals used to target these people, for two reasons. One, they typically carried more money on them while on vacation, but the other reason, they knew they had a better probability they weren't FL citizens and were "from somewhere else" and as such, didn't have a license to carry a gun. Thus making them much easier targets than robbing a FL citizen.

Criminals will invariably go to an easier and less dangerous target, and usually that means someone who is unarmed.


----------



## Crazy9000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Actually, statistics prove the opposite.
> About twenty years ago, rental car places used to put little stickers on rental cars and anyone could easily identify people who were most likely from out of state in places like Orlando, FL. Criminals used to target these people, for two reasons. One, they typically carried more money on them while on vacation, but the other reason, they knew they had a better probability they weren't FL citizens and were "from somewhere else" and as such, didn't have a license to carry a gun. Thus making them much easier targets than robbing a FL citizen.
> Criminals will invariably go to an easier and less dangerous target, and usually that means someone who is unarmed.


Agreed. Criminals don't tend to shoot people and take the wallet. They rob at gunpoint, and shoot if something scares or threatens them. I would bet the number of people who have been robbed while open carrying is pretty low lol.

Although I do agree that openly carrying makes other people feel uneasy.


----------



## esp42089

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Infinitegrim*
> 
> Reading the comments in this thread makes it very easy for me to see who is informed about guns, and who isn't.
> Its pretty funny, yet saddening at the same time.


More interestingly, you can see who has actually ever shot a gun in their life. I target shoot almost exclusively; 1000m paper punching. I don't view guns as any more of a threat than a kitchen full of knives. I would challenge anyone who says that guns should be banned to go spend a day at a gun range and try target shooting. Everyone who has taken me up on the offer has come away saying "wow, that was really fun; can I come with you next time you go?" Until you've pulled the trigger personally, you have no concept of what a gun can and can't do. To address the accidental discharge anti-gun arguements that run rampant: accidentally discharging your gun is like accidentally hitting the gas instead of the brake in your car and plowing into the vehicle in front of you. Is that really the sort of person we should cater our laws to? Reckless people are a menace to society no matter what they are doing and will find ways to hurt themselves and others.

My last point that is on topic: a printed lower receiver is dangerous, those guys are firing 22LR rounds and their receiver is breaking; they are worlds away from firing proper centerfire cartridges like a small 223. Due to the way 3D printers operate, the final plastic product has high residual stress. Even when the technology "matures" and we develop better ceramics, the same fundamental structural issues will be present due to the way the printers operate. Until they are capable of pressure casting their receiver, resulting in a single amorphous ceramic with low residual stress, their receivers will not be safe for use and will continue to crack and shear under use.

This is some great fear-mongering over a non-existent threat. Where is all the fear over hobbyist sized mills and lathes? If it were me, I would go buy a used hobby mill off craigslist for less than a grand and a piece of 6061 billet for less than 100 dollars and have the means to make several untraceable crude lower receivers that would not break after a couple firings. I could then go pick up a used lathe and begin chambering my own barrels. All this is completely legal until I try to sell it to someone. I could also make my own untraceable turned solid brass bullets, just like those scary ultra long range shooters do. It may take me a couple days and a bit of wasted material learning it all, but youtube would help me out quite a bit because many helpful hobbyists have posted DIY videos.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> Well, the main problem with open carry is that it scares a lot of people, and if criminals know that you have a gun, they're probably more likely to shoot you. The only thing a concealed carry permit allows you to do is to conceal a gun without getting time in prison; criminals will conceal guns regardless.


We need more people to openly carry firearms. If every other person had a rifle on their back or a pistol at their side...I don't think much of any one would be wanting to start shooting since their might be 30 people shooting back.


----------



## Blameless

Neither open nor concealed carry are "scary", most especially not the legal kind. The existence of both concealed and open carry are complimentary deterrents. People in general, and predators in particular, tend to avoid situations where conflict is likely unless they have a clear upper hand. A few firearms openly possessed by civilians tends to remind people that others may be armed as well, and the uncertainty that comes with this is a very potent deterrent.

I'm certainly not a gun nut, and I the only firearm I currently own is a .22LR survival rifle that I haven't discharged in years. However, I'm cognizant enough to understand that I _benefit_ from the existence of well armed civilians around me, even if I do not carry myself, and I do not fathom the irrational fear (and I challenge anyone to prove the rationality of such fears) that causes such opposition to going about armed.

The idea that I am somehow at risk from law abiding individuals possessing or carrying firearms is nearly as moronic as the idea that laws against such practices are obstacles to those intent on crime.

If it were up to me, I'd let people do as they wish, unless they had _proven_ themselves a threat to others. Sadly, leaving people alone and minding one's own damn business seems to be morally repugnant to many who feel they somehow have the right to impress their own ideals, values, prejudices, inane taboos, bigotries and fears, upon others.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> Although I do agree that openly carrying makes other people feel uneasy.


So does my 40 pound dog that couldn't outfight a pissed off toddler.

People are ignorant, and their fears are irrational. Some exposure to the objects of their fears would likely do them good.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *esp42089*
> 
> More interestingly, you can see who has actually ever shot a gun in their life. I target shoot almost exclusively; 1000m paper punching. I don't view guns as any more of a threat than a kitchen full of knives. I would challenge anyone who says that guns should be banned to go spend a day at a gun range and try target shooting. Everyone who has taken me up on the offer has come away saying "wow, that was really fun; can I come with you next time you go?" Until you've pulled the trigger personally, you have no concept of what a gun can and can't do. To address the accidental discharge anti-gun arguements that run rampant: accidentally discharging your gun is like accidentally hitting the gas instead of the brake in your car and plowing into the vehicle in front of you. Is that really the sort of person we should cater our laws to? Reckless people are a menace to society no matter what they are doing and will find ways to hurt themselves and others.
> My last point that is on topic: a printed lower receiver is dangerous, those guys are firing 22LR rounds and their receiver is breaking; they are worlds away from firing proper centerfire cartridges like a small 223. Due to the way 3D printers operate, the final plastic product has high residual stress. Even when the technology "matures" and we develop better ceramics, the same fundamental structural issues will be present due to the way the printers operate. Until they are capable of pressure casting their receiver, resulting in a single amorphous ceramic with low residual stress, their receivers will not be safe for use and will continue to crack and shear under use.
> This is some great fear-mongering over a non-existent threat. Where is all the fear over hobbyist sized mills and lathes? If it were me, I would go buy a used hobby mill off craigslist for less than a grand and a piece of 6061 billet for less than 100 dollars and have the means to make several untraceable crude lower receivers that would not break after a couple firings. I could then go pick up a used lathe and begin chambering my own barrels. All this is completely legal until I try to sell it to someone. I could also make my own untraceable turned solid brass bullets, just like those scary ultra long range shooters do. It may take me a couple days and a bit of wasted material learning it all, but youtube would help me out quite a bit because many helpful hobbyists have posted DIY videos.


They were shooting the 5.7x28mm FN round, which is very similar to the 5.56 in both circumference and chamber pressure. They were NOT shooting the .22LR as you stated, which is a much lower chamber pressure, about half of the 5.7 and 5.56.

If they were shooting a 22LR, especially a sub sonic round, I would bet they would have gotten a few more rounds at least out of the gun.


----------



## un-midas touch

You know what though? 3D printers are really cool.

Seems like we may be heading towards off-topic here...

edit: didn't see above in time.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> This Florida resident says *deal with it.*


I do, But also voice my opinion of Criminals Conceal Weapons, Legal Citizens of the USA should not have to Conceal to carry. There is more than enough evidence showing concealed carry presents more problems than it solves.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> Well, the main problem with open carry is that it scares a lot of people, and if criminals know that you have a gun, they're probably more likely to shoot you. The only thing a concealed carry permit allows you to do is to conceal a gun without getting time in prison; criminals will conceal guns regardless.


I'm sorry but Open Cary tends to steer criminals to other less protected targets, like say someone who is concealing their firearm. They may look like an unarmed target until a would be criminal is held a gun point. Most criminals see a weapon in the open and steer away from the carrier.

Open Cary dose make some nervous, They probably don't like guns in the first place.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> Neither open nor concealed carry are "scary", most especially not the legal kind. *The existence of both concealed* and open carry *are complimentary deterrents. People in general, and predators in particular, tend to avoid situations where conflict is likely unless they have a clear upper hand.* A few firearms openly possessed by civilians tends to remind people that others may be armed as well, and the uncertainty that comes with this is a very potent deterrent.
> I'm certainly not a gun nut, and I the only firearm I currently own is a .22LR survival rifle that I haven't discharged in years. However, I'm cognizant enough to understand that I _benefit_ from the existence of well armed civilians around me, even if I do not carry myself, and I do not fathom the irrational fear (and I challenge anyone to prove the rationality of such fears) that causes such opposition to going about armed.
> The idea that I am somehow at risk from law abiding individuals possessing or carrying firearms is nearly as moronic as the idea that laws against such practices are obstacles to those intent on crime.
> If it were up to me, I'd let people do as they wish, unless they had _proven_ themselves a threat to others. Sadly, leaving people alone and minding one's own damn business seems to be morally repugnant to many who feel they somehow have the right to impress their own ideals, values, prejudices, inane taboos, bigotries and fears, upon others.
> So does my 40 pound dog that couldn't outfight a pissed off toddler.
> People are ignorant, and their fears are irrational. Some exposure to the objects of their fears would likely do them good.


Concealed Cary dose not deter anything unless your doing it wrong. Concealed Cary is a joke. Look up how many people are shot by CC permit holder's concealing their weapon at the time VS Open Cary follower's shooting someone.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Actually, statistics prove the opposite.
> About twenty years ago, rental car places used to put little stickers on rental cars and anyone could easily identify people who were most likely from out of state in places like Orlando, FL. Criminals used to target these people, for two reasons. One, they typically carried more money on them while on vacation, but the other reason, they knew they had a better probability they weren't FL citizens and were "from somewhere else" and as such, didn't have a license to carry a gun. Thus making them much easier targets than robbing a FL citizen.
> Criminals will invariably go to an easier and less dangerous target, and usually that means someone who is unarmed.


But, if you are caught in a robbery, they might just shoot you if they see you have a gun, and they already have their guns drawn.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> But, if you are caught in a robbery, they might just shoot you if they see you have a gun, and they already have their guns drawn.


Your argument is somewhat flawed. Most muggers won't draw their gun outright. They know this can result in a much bigger charge if caught. Usually it is used as an escalation method if resistance is made.

From what I've seen, most criminals have guns to protect themselves from other criminals with guns. Plus they are good at spotting a less-than-perfectly concealed weapon. Maybe you all don't know a benefit if baggy clothes is that you can fit something in the waist without it sticking out.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Your argument is somewhat flawed. Most muggers won't draw their gun outright. They know this can result in a much bigger charge if caught. Usually it is used as an escalation method if resistance is made.
> From what I've seen, most criminals have guns to protect themselves from other criminals with guns. Plus they are good at spotting a less-than-perfectly concealed weapon. Maybe you all don't know a benefit if baggy clothes is that you can fit something in the waist without it sticking out.


There is an old law enforcement training video, from the 80's or early 90's. It is just a guy standing in front of a table wearing a wind breaker and sweats, they looked like they fit him pretty well, a little baggy. The guy then starts reaching into his pants and wind breaker and laying out on the table all the weapons he had concealed. I kid you not it was something along the lines of....

Sawed off shotgun. multiple knives, a machete, half a dozen pistols, nun-chucks, etc etc. It was a small arsenal in his pants and wind breaker, all accomplished by sewing a few small pockets and hook points here and there inside the clothing.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> There is an old law enforcement training video, from the 80's or early 90's. It is just a guy standing in front of a table wearing a wind breaker and sweats, they looked like they fit him pretty well, a little baggy. The guy then starts reaching into his pants and wind breaker and laying out on the table all the weapons he had concealed. I kid you not it was something along the lines of....
> Sawed off shotgun. multiple knives, a machete, half a dozen pistols, nun-chucks, etc etc. It was a small arsenal in his pants and wind breaker, all accomplished by sewing a few small pockets and hook points here and there inside the clothing.


Yea and where I come from you know not to mess with this dude when you see him. I mean who wears a windbreaker and sweats anymore


----------



## Crazy9000

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> There is an old law enforcement training video, from the 80's or early 90's. It is just a guy standing in front of a table wearing a wind breaker and sweats, they looked like they fit him pretty well, a little baggy. The guy then starts reaching into his pants and wind breaker and laying out on the table all the weapons he had concealed. I kid you not it was something along the lines of....
> Sawed off shotgun. multiple knives, a machete, half a dozen pistols, nun-chucks, etc etc. It was a small arsenal in his pants and wind breaker, all accomplished by sewing a few small pockets and hook points here and there inside the clothing.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*


DUDE. That guy couldn't even walk with all that on him. As if you couldn't see that shotgun and MAC on his back. What a prime example of the fearmongering I've been so vehemently against in this thread. DRESS CODE? REALLY?


----------



## RX7-2nr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> DUDE. That guy couldn't even walk with all that on him. As if you couldn't see that shotgun and MAC on his back. What a prime example of the fearmongering I've been so vehemently against in this thread. DRESS CODE? REALLY?


I dont think they were saying someone could actually conceal all of that, they were just making the point that at first glance he looks somewhat normal.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RX7-2nr*
> 
> I dont think they were saying someone could actually conceal all of that, they were just making the point that at first glance he looks somewhat normal.


It's still so skewed and irrelevant though. If it's just one gun than anyway you can hide that up your plaid skirt or sweater vest any day.


----------



## RX7-2nr

Skewed yes
Irrelevant no


----------



## Crazy9000

I think everyone needs to read this guide to concealed weapons then:

http://dontevenreply.com/view.php?post=84


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RX7-2nr*
> 
> Skewed yes
> Irrelevant no


If they were trying to get parents to raise the levy for metal detectors I'd say it's relevant (oh but now that we can print guns it makes those obsolete







). But like I said, unless the school uniform is leotards and tutus you aren't going to stop weapon concealment.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> I think everyone needs to read this guide to concealed weapons then:
> http://dontevenreply.com/view.php?post=84


Best laugh in 3 weeks.


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Your argument is somewhat flawed. Most muggers won't draw their gun outright. They know this can result in a much bigger charge if caught. Usually it is used as an escalation method if resistance is made.
> From what I've seen, most criminals have guns to protect themselves from other criminals with guns. Plus they are good at spotting a less-than-perfectly concealed weapon. Maybe you all don't know a benefit if baggy clothes is that you can fit something in the waist without it sticking out.


Yeah, I guess that argument was mostly for an unrealistic scenario, but the point that people are scared of guns still stands. I remember one guy, here in Canada, having his youtube account with videos of him playing airsoft found by his employer and being required to have a psychological analysis done over it. People are hysterical over guns.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*
> 
> I think everyone needs to read this guide to concealed weapons then:
> http://dontevenreply.com/view.php?post=84


That was great.


----------



## DayoftheGreek

This thread really makes me want to buy more guns and make a DIY 3D printer.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*


Not the video, but damn close! The difference was that the guy in the LE training video could walk, I highly doubt that kid could walk.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DayoftheGreek*
> 
> This thread really makes me want to buy more guns and make a DIY 3D printer.


No, I want to buy a gun, make a 3D printer to print my 3D printer that I will use to print my gun.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Not the video, but damn close! The difference was that the guy in the LE training video could walk, I highly doubt that kid could walk.
> No, I want to buy a gun, make a 3D printer to print my 3D printer that I will use to print my gun.


And then shoot it with the gun that actually works


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> I do, But also voice my opinion of Criminals Conceal Weapons, Legal Citizens of the USA should not have to Conceal to carry. *There is more than enough evidence showing concealed carry presents more problems than it solves.*


----------



## Kvjavs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WhiteCrane*
> 
> Very few places in USA require a background check for the purchase of a pistol. For rifles / shotguns, almost nowhere at all requires one.


As a general rule of thumb: If you have no idea what you're talking about, shut up.

Quit spreading misinformation.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kvjavs*
> 
> As a general rule of thumb: If you have no idea what you're talking about, shut up.
> Quit spreading misinformation.


Don't worry, he has been "corrected" several times.


----------



## dontpwnmebro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Crazy9000*


so is this why all the gangsters grab on to their crotches when they walk? its to keep all their guns from falling off their pants right?


----------



## esp42089

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> They were shooting the 5.7x28mm FN round, which is very similar to the 5.56 in both circumference and chamber pressure. They were NOT shooting the .22LR as you stated, which is a much lower chamber pressure, about half of the 5.7 and 5.56.
> If they were shooting a 22LR, especially a sub sonic round, I would bet they would have gotten a few more rounds at least out of the gun.


My bad, I went back through his website and yes, you are right; they are shooting a 5.7x28. At 50ksi, the 5.7x28 shows potential viability with centerfire pistol cartridges. They could probably create a longer lasting and far more useful 9mm variant with its 35ksi pressure spec.

I still maintain that these receivers are dangerous due to the residual stress in the finished part and the subpar material; I would never feel comfortable shooting it, but I may just be overly sensitive about it. After the split cases from improper headspacing I have experienced in bolt action rifles, I want a durable weapon that will not explode in my hands when something goes wrong.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/20/colt-ar-15-kaboom/ That is a fully functional AR, designed to work for tens of thousands of rounds, after one round with bad headspacing. It blew apart the entire upper receiver, and the lower receiver was damaged. The guy luckily just had flash burns and bruising. This isn't an unheard of or rare occurrence:
http://www.thegunzone.com/stag15_lc.html
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/440162_.html


----------



## m98custom1212

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *b3machi7ke*
> 
> So I'm pretty sure they're able to use 3-D printers with titanium...I realize it wouldn't be nearly as cheap to produce as using plastic/polymer in a 3-D printer, but you're making it sound like it is impossible to do something that we already can (or are very close to being able) to do. I haven't read much of this thread tbh, but it seems that titanium would be an acceptable material to produce a firearm with...?


Yes show me a 3D Printer that can run at 3000 F... not the 300 F to melt abs plastic


----------



## DayoftheGreek

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m98custom1212*
> 
> Yes show me a 3D Printer that run at 3000 F... not the 300 F to melt abs plastic


http://i.materialise.com/materials/titanium

Laser sintering. Layers of titanium powder are laid down and pulsed by a high power laser to melt the powder solid. It's not in a consumers price range, but it is produced for industrial applications.


----------



## m98custom1212

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DayoftheGreek*
> 
> http://i.materialise.com/materials/titanium
> Laser sintering. Layers of titanium powder are laid down and pulsed by a high power laser to melt the powder solid. It's not in a consumers price range, but it is produced for industrial applications.


I forget to put consumer grade. I could go to my work right now and make all firearms I wanted.


----------



## DayoftheGreek

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m98custom1212*
> 
> I forget to put consumer grade. I could go to my work right now and make all firearms I wanted.


It's true, making guns is easy, 3D printer or otherwise.

For those interested, I wanted to look up the price of a laser sintering machine and couldn't find much. The first result I found lists the printers as "$600,000 and up." It is from 2009, so I imagine the tech is a little cheap (maybe $250,000?) since 3D printers are getting significantly more exposure.

http://www.rapidtoday.com/rqm.html


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DayoftheGreek*
> 
> http://i.materialise.com/materials/titanium
> Laser sintering. Layers of titanium powder are laid down and pulsed by a high power laser to melt the powder solid. It's not in a consumers price range, but it is produced for industrial applications.


I'm not sure that that would be strong enough for gun barrels, though. They hammer forge anything they want to be strong, as forging produces a better grain shape. Also, titanium is weaker than steel, so that could be a problem.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> I'm not sure that that would be strong enough for gun barrels, though. They hammer forge anything they want to be strong, as forging produces a better grain shape. Also, titanium is weaker than steel, so that could be a problem.


It is brittle, steel will bend and flex under stress. Titanium will just snap.


----------



## KhaoticKomputing

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*


Have you seen how cops react to someone with a concealed carry permit by chance? That nightmare alone is enought to deter me from CC....


----------



## Art Vanelay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> It is brittle, steel will bend and flex under stress. Titanium will just snap.


I just know that in terms of yield strength, titanium alloys have lower pressure ratings than steel. That doesn't sound too safe with a gun barrel.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *esp42089*
> 
> I still maintain that these receivers are dangerous due to the residual stress in the finished part and the subpar material; I would never feel comfortable shooting it, but I may just be overly sensitive about it. After the split cases from improper headspacing I have experienced in bolt action rifles, I want a durable weapon that will not explode in my hands when something goes wrong.


You are correct, and this has been my argument from the beginning on why it may never be possible; we just don't have the technology to "print out" the stress of the materials we use. Even the superallows that can be printed (using machines we'll never see in someone's garage, no less) aren't capable of this. Years ago I had a pdf of proof fires using treated and untreated barrels. I really wish I still had it, because it illustrated (visually) perfectly what I'm trying to get across.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m98custom1212*
> 
> Yes show me a 3D Printer that can run at 3000 F... not the 300 F to melt abs plastic


http://ezinearticles.com/?Your-Options-With-3D-Printing&id=7302486

It's a good read. Just keep in mind the first part of this post and the inability of printing to manage (meaning mitigate) the internal stresses inherent to metals. Refer to my earlier post re: titanium to see why it's not so good an idea in gun barrels.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> Have you seen how cops react to someone with a concealed carry permit by chance? That nightmare alone is enought to deter me from CC....


As a matter of fact, yes, I have. Police will react the same way to everyone with a firearm, concealed or open. When you decide to show that evidence you spoke of, I'll entertain the subject of why concealed carrying of firearms should be banned in favor of open carry. I, for one, _prefer_ to carry concealed, where time/place/employment permit. In this I rather like Virginia's setup, where no license is needed to carry openly but one is needed to carry concealed. (Pie in the sky for me would be state-funded mandatory training for all would-be carriers in shall-issue states; a 2-day course putting 400 rounds through a firearm under good supervision will teach you a lot more about shooting and handling firearms, _and caring for said weapons_, than a silly CCW class at a gun show.)


----------



## RX7-2nr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KhaoticKomputing*
> 
> Have you seen how cops react to someone with a concealed carry permit by chance? That nightmare alone is enought to deter me from CC....


I suppose that would depend on the situation that caused them to find out.


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RX7-2nr*
> 
> I suppose that would depend on the situation that caused them to find out.


All they gotta do is run your plates.


----------



## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RX7-2nr*
> 
> I suppose that would depend on the situation that caused them to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> All they gotta do is run your plates.
Click to expand...

I know in my state if you have a CCW and are carrying, and a cop stops you, the first thing you are legally obligated to do is inform them.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> All they gotta do is run your plates.


I am not aware of a state that ties your plate number to your CCW permit number....


----------



## Cheezman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I am not aware of a state that ties your plate number to your CCW permit number....


If you are the registered owner of the car, then when they run your plates, they will get your name, which means they can search among many federal or state databases, and you can bet any type of weapon permit is something that is often cataloged and searchable.


----------



## mott555

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I am not aware of a state that ties your plate number to your CCW permit number....


In Missouri, the CCW is just an endorsement on your driver's license, just like getting a motorcycle license is just an endorsement on your existing license. So not exactly tied to your vehicle plates, but if you own the vehicle and they run the plates I'm sure this would come up.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> In Missouri, the CCW is just an endorsement on your driver's license, just like getting a motorcycle license is just an endorsement on your existing license. So not exactly tied to your vehicle plates, but if you own the vehicle and they run the plates I'm sure this would come up.


That is actually a good idea...then a cop could ask to see some one's driver license in a regular traffic stop and know right away they might carry a gun...and I should clarify...legally carrying a gun. It would just remove a lot of surprise or suspicion right from the start I think.

Though I've seen a state trooper get all nervous and upity when told that "there is an airsoft rifle in the vehicle, officer, what do you want me to do?" So maybe the earlier notice will make it harder...I guess that would just depend on the attitude of the officer and how they handle the situation


----------



## un-midas touch

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I am not aware of a state that ties your plate number to your CCW permit number....


Yea it doesn't have to be. Have you seen those in-car systems they have these days?

I don't think they go and do extra searching all the time, but depending on the situation they will dig a little deeper, like say if you happen to park in a high crime neighborhood.


----------



## BBEG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> If you are the registered owner of the car, then when they run your plates, they will get your name, which means they can search among many federal or state databases, and you can bet any type of weapon permit is something that is often cataloged and searchable.


Only applies if the state is one of the few who tie carry licenses with with driver's licenses. This is certainly not the case in Florida.


----------



## mpbond

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> I know in my state if you have a CCW and are carrying, and a cop stops you, the first thing you are legally obligated to do is inform them.


Actually, no. In MO, you are not required to inform them unless asked. Then it is illegal to deny it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> In Missouri, the CCW is just an endorsement on your driver's license, just like getting a motorcycle license is just an endorsement on your existing license. So not exactly tied to your vehicle plates, but if you own the vehicle and they run the plates I'm sure this would come up.


We can get our CCW endorsement on a State ID instead of on our license. My driver's license says nothing about my CCW. The reason is, if I get a ticket and the officer takes my license, then I legally can't carry until it is returned. But by having my endorsement on my State ID, I can still carry even though I don't have my license on me.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BBEG*
> 
> Only applies if the state is one of the few who tie carry licenses with with driver's licenses. This is certainly not the case in Florida.


Or Missouri.


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## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I am not aware of a state that ties your plate number to your CCW permit number....


Your plates are tied to the registered owner and that record has notes that indicated if you are a CCW permit holder, or a felon, warrants issued, etc, at least in Maryland.


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## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cheezman*
> 
> If you are the registered owner of the car, then when they run your plates, they will get your name, which means they can search among many federal or state databases, and you can bet any type of weapon permit is something that is often cataloged and searchable.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *un-midas touch*
> 
> Yea it doesn't have to be. Have you seen those in-car systems they have these days?
> I don't think they go and do extra searching all the time, but depending on the situation they will dig a little deeper, like say if you happen to park in a high crime neighborhood.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Your plates are tied to the registered owner and that record has notes that indicated if you are a CCW permit holder, or a felon, warrants issued, etc, at least in Maryland.


In the years I spent volunteering for law enforcement, I never once seen a plate being ran and it come back with information like what you are describing. Then again, this is Oregon, and we love our guns and privacy!









Simply running plates came back with if the vehicle was reported stolen, registered owner and address, insurance status (in some cases), and that is about it. To find out about Wants and Warrants you had to run a Name with DOB, SSN, or DL #, plates simply didn't have that information tied to it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mott555*
> 
> In Missouri, the CCW is just an endorsement on your driver's license, just like getting a motorcycle license is just an endorsement on your existing license. So not exactly tied to your vehicle plates, but if you own the vehicle and they run the plates I'm sure this would come up.


Yea, I like the simple endorsement on the DL idea. In Oregon we have to carry another card in the wallet, not a huge deal, but the endorsement would clean up some space!


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