# OCN Dave's Air Cooling Guide



## DaveLT

*Table of Contents*

*[1] Airflow and extra fans vs turbulence

[2] VRM Cooling

[3] Heat Rises and Cool Air Sinks Misconception

[4] Usage Of Bottom Fans

[5] Usage Of Side Fans

[6] Too much airflow, too much noise

[7] Achieving Lowest Temperatures

[8] Things To Keep In Mind

[9] Chassis Heat Conduction

[10] Filter Recommendation

[11] Bigger is not better.

[12] Air cooling rules - Dave Edition

[13] Dave's recommended fans
*



*1) Airflow and extra fans vs turbulence*

Air goes where you push it. Simple as that. If you need extra airflow mounting an extra fan at the back of the HDD cage is welcome, it does not cause turbulence as some would suggest.
Also, do not install an exhaust in the top position nearest the front of the case if you are using an traditional tower cooler. What you're doing is exhausting the air the heatsink would have otherwise sucked in. A intake in front of the cooler would do better









*2) VRM Cooling*

Exhausts are fine to install near VRMs but hotspots don't build up in the top because hot air doesn't rise with any sort of airflow in cases but rather the middle so my suggestion is to just prop up a 120mm over the motherboard in exhaust if you are using an AIO and intake at the top and the AIO being set as an exhaust if CPU temps aren't so much a problem since it really only affects the CPU by only 1C or so since VRMs can't possibly put out a metric ton of heat if it does get hot
If you are using a traditional tower cooler, a rear exhaust top intake is obviously wiser.

The consensus here is that I wouldn't use a top exhaust, ever.

It stands to reason as if your AIO is a 120/140 unit (I recommend CM's Nepton and Seidon or Deepcool's Maelstrom series) you're just sort of "stealing the air" around it creating a huge air pocket. For a heatsink it's just pulling hot air through the VRM from the heatsink, that's all.
What I suggest is install a filtered intake above your VRMs.
Air does not magically rise in a case unless your airflow is basically zero.

*3) Heat Rises and Cool Air Sinks Misconception*

And also, heat rises and cool air sinks is a stupid belief that should be weeded out entirely for computers, unless it's all natural convection. Remember, air goes where you push it
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pcfoo*
> 
> I don't think there is a definitive answer on what is "better". Clearly depends on case design, fan placement and direction of flow etc. But not due to "hot air goes up" effects.
> 
> Yes, heat rises, but stack effect/convection flow rates when compared with any type of forced ventilation are anemic.
> In buildings you can talk about stack ventilation / chimney effects easier, as by comparison you have much larger interior volumes for air to stratify, wind blowing slow but massive volumes of air on the outside to create pressure differences between the top /bottom / sides of the structure.
> 
> All that to achieve what? A few air-changes per hour (i.e. replacing 100% of the interior air with fresh air). Top requirements are what? Like 30 Air changes per hour for busy places like bars, to 40-60 Air Changes for commercial Kitchens. Normal housing / offices etc are usually in the middle single digits, 4~6. The latter is attainable with natural ventilation (i.e. combination of pressure differences and natural convection).
> 
> A case is what? 5 cubic fit of space average?
> Nah&#8230;much less&#8230;a 900D is a tad less than 4 cu ft.
> A 540D is 2.2 cu. ft.
> 
> And we have fans that displace (nominal) 20-30cu ft. at really low rpm.
> The AF140s like those in the 540 claim 68 cfm&#8230;that means that in an ideal condition, and with a heavy, 50% restriction due to mesh/filters/internals we will still have some 30 cu. ft moved around for each "paired" intake / exhaust fan set per minute.
> 
> That translates to *roughly 800 air changes per hour*, using just 2x 140mm fans&#8230;
> An effective 20 cfm airflow, would still result to more than 540 air changes per hour.
> 
> I hope you realize that the natural buoyancy of hot air, convection and gravity forces are simply not even in the ballpark of "resisting" forced ventilation. The effect of those falls in the "measurement error/tolerances" magnitude.


*4) Usage of bottom fans*

Intake. *ALWAYS*. Just remember to put a filter over them and probably prop them the case up higher or the fan will create turbulence due to a lack of intake area

I recommend installing bottom fan and getting a case that has a bottom fan, bottom fans are quieter because they are located further than the front fans and the front fans have to cool the hard disk cages

*5) Usage of side fans* .

Top side fans are useless because unless it follows the bottom side panel fans it will just be recycling air

Configurations of bottom side fans are very setup-dependent

1)If you are using a blower GPU, intake.
2)Aftermarket design? Exhaust.

It's a good idea to use a similar CFM fan on the side fan as the bottom intake if you use a aftermarket design so you don't get a ositive pressure: offset at least, i think. It doesn't really matter but it's a good idea to have them the same.

*6) Too much airflow, too much noise*

There's no such thing as too much airflow, it's good to have extra at your disposal if need be, i use a fan controller and really powerful fans for that reason
Unless you're at stock then it doesn't matter. But being on OCN, every guide is maximized for getting best overclocks. After all, we're in the pursuit of performance








Of course ... *POWERRRRRR!!!!* or MOARRRRRR

*Myths*

200mm/230mm fans are superior to 2x120/4x120 fans. Oh god.

ALL 200mm fans have so weak *static pressure* that by the time they flow through a filter their airflow is garbage
Case in point, i have a filtered front panel, I wouldn't imagine anyone who would buy a case without a filtered front panel
Static pressure is a rating of how much pressure they can generate while not producing any airflow, in simple terms, basically how much it can overcome a filter.
For even a "high airflow" filter the 200mm fans are barely capable of any airflow

I use Delta AFB1212H fans up front and output collapses to easily 3/4 the rated airflow at full RPM, *how much CFM do you think a crummy 0.6mmH2O 200mm fan is going to put out*?
And also a lot of you who are running 200mm fans you don't get better temps you just get larger spread much less airflow or less static pressure

*7) Achieving lowest temperatures*

Air begins to draw heat away from the components once it enters a case and it's ability to absorb more only declines as it remains in the case.

Basically, the faster you get the air in and then out, the better the cooling! Well technically. It falls off rapidly after 100CFM

*8) Things To Keep In Mind*
_*THERE IS NO "BEST" OR ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL FAN CONFIG!*_

That said, one's good config can be detrimental to the other!

The only real way to find out what will cool your computer down to optimal levels is to play around with all sorts of fan configurations, using SpeedFan to log temperatures of each individual component to see how each is affected by various changes then choose your final configuration by what gives you the best all-around cooling

Cable management is extremely important!
*9) Chassis Heat Conduction*
Trust me, it doesn't happen. We're not using the chassis as a heatsink nor are our heatsinks touching the chassis. Am i wrong? Of course not. Besides even if it does occur it's into the calculation error range. Remember air goes where you push it? Heat goes where you push it. REMEMBER THIS APPLIES TO FORCED CONVECTION ONLY.

See below for the original comment
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fremish*
> 
> It matters A LOT! Let's say you have an aluminum frame case and then you have your standard steel case, aluminum is going to release heat a lot faster then steel will. Companies have different markets they tend to aim at.


*10) Filter Recommendation*
What's air cooling without proper filters!
Filters :
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999249 FF123B - Magnetic lowest restriction possible
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999234 Magnetic FF122 cheaper but quite a bit more restriction.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA32C1A21275 5pcs Aluminum Filters - These are pretty good.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA32C1A21276 Double of above. You save a bit
*11) Bigger fans are not better*
Here's a note :
Deepcool UF140 vs Deepcool UF120 1300rpm non-rubber version
1200rpm vs 1300rpm
Both put out the same airflow behind a switch 810 front filter but the GF140 is louder than the UF120 at that RPM
*13) Rules of aircooling - Dave Edition*

*[1]* Positive pressure > Negative Pressure

*[2]* Clever fan placement. You might have to think about it for this one just don't stuff fans everywhere you can.

*[3]* Removing PCIE covers will improve airflow, but it will also increase gathering of dust bunnies if you have negative balance airflow, as for positive it might but the point is we're trying to direct airflow to where it should go, through the fans, not everywhere else.

*[4]* Get rid of your DVD drive, use them only when necessary.
You get more space for installing a drive bay fan and that supplies your cpu heatsink with a fresh stream of airflow.)
When was the last time i definitely needed a DVD drive? Never.

*[6]* If you are not planning on installing any hard drives at all front loading hdd cases are much better cooling wise

*[7]* If you use a case with "side loading drives" (HDDs are perpendicular to the direction of airflow)
Use a push pull fan config for the hard drives if you have hot drives like Raptors but even so with normal drives i would recommend push pull fan configs anyway.

*[8]* Bottom intake fans are good, if they are filtered. I can't recall the number of times i have cleaned my bottom fan for the thin coat of dust that settles on the exhaust site,
my place is not dusty but really sandy (It would be a great pun if i was on Sandy Bridge and there was a bridge nearby ... which there is







)

*[9]* Use your PSU fan as a exhaust is not a good idea as that may shorten the life of your PSU considerably
There's no need to take in the air from a axial fan GPU that is hot as hell or share air with a blower GPU ...

*[10]* There is no "BEST" fan config for every single case or rig!

*[11]* Static pressure is the king of cooling whether water or air. It makes miracles! Be a believer today









*[12]* Big heatsinks > small heatsink and compensating with too many fans

*[13]* When you buy fans, DON'T CHEAP OUT FOR SLEEVES. Unless your rig is very lowly utilized then it's a moot point

*[14]* Cable management is essential as well as sleeved cables. No need for individually sleeved cables though they're not necessary and they're only for looks

*[15]* 38mm fans > 25mm fans

*[16]* You do not need to stuff as many fans as you can into every hole in your case.

A good example of misconceptions
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fieldsweeper*
> 
> the thing with SP is the fans are bigger,k it has the ability to push air better, which is how you get the static pressure, the larger fan blades prevent the air from coming back thru from the increased pressure. the AF pushes air a little faster but with less pressure, and if it doesn't have a clean flow path the air will basically squeeze back out lol. they are not good for having and pos or neg static pressure in the case. pos pressure helps keep the dust out and increased the airs density, (due to the pressure) which also allows it to move more heat. (better heat conductivity)
> 
> the thinner blades of the AF provide less buffeting, which helps reduce the "wind" noise) , the thicker SP blades have more surface area to prevent air escape. even better if you get fans that use bearings rather than sleeves.
> 
> use SP for in in and out fans, and AF for internal, (over flow on a component etc) (ideally)


*Q:* Static Pressure Optimized fans can push air better and prevent the air coming back through from increased pressure
*A:* No. It doesn't move more "pressure" or prevent air coming back through the blades. It only happens when you have a no-flow situation

What it means is that if there is a huge restriction up front it won't be able to "pull" air through the restriction

Even on the SP120s your CFM will collapse to 1/2-1/3 of the rated CFM when pulling through a typical filter up front

*Q:* AF fans are not for pos or neg static pressure
*A:* There is no such thing as "positive or negative static pressure" Static pressure only refers to a no-flow situation. Is your case's airflow stagnant?

Positive pressure means there is more airflow going into the system = that is pressure

*Q:* The thicker SP blades have more surface area to prevent air escape. even better if you get fans that use bearings rather than sleeves.
*A:* Bearings are what breaks or makes a fan, by the way. Sleeve bearings = I call them useless, horizontal positions they dry up very quickly and in situations with high temps they last very short too

And while 2BB fans are quieter than sleeve bearings so far the only 2BB fans i have are Deltas

Also, > 2500rpm sleeve bearings become noiser than single ball fans

*Q:* Using SP for in and out fans and AF for internal
*A:* SP is good for everything. Don't bother with AF

*Q:* Static Pressure Fans better at Airflow with Dust Filter?
*A:* Certainly. Unless there's no filter (never try this on a intake) "AF" fans will perform better but trust me honeycomb grilles will even affect AF fans airflow ... Again, higher SP fans please.
*12) Dave's Recommended fans*
Delta AFB1212 L to H - I bought 12 AFB1212M recently. That's a testament to how much I love them
AVC DS12025B12M (I kinda like that fan. A good friend of mine recently bought *50* of them)
Deepcool UF120 (Black ones are from the Ice warrior which have a "sealed sleeve" but the white ones have 2BB bearings. That is weird ...) There is a new line of GF120 fans that are actually REAL FDB bearings not "sealed sleeve" like even noctua will use but unfortunately only 1500rpm. I hope they do make a 2000rpm but that will take some time even though I've told them to make a 2000rpm (as used in the Maelstrom) so yea.
Deepcool GF120 (2000rpm off the maelstrom)
Deepcool UF140/GF140 UF140 is a 2BB bearing (white) but GF140 is a sealed sleeve
Cryorig XF140 and QF120 Performance
Phanteks PH-F140MP, PH-F120MP, PH-F140XP, PH-F120XP and maybe the PH-200SP (Best 200m fan out there but it doesn't say much because two of my AFB1212Hs at the same noise level has more airflow)
Silverstone AP181 Price is quite steep and it has a sleeve bearing -_-

*All that said though*, buying used industrial fans for under 5$ a piece ( I buy mine at less than that lol. ) is a good saving compared to spending 30$ for them since so many hardly used workstations/tower servers have them in there and they will be scrapped eventually and thus you can get your hand on some for cheaps
Also, PC fans are usually overrated and that might even include noctuas, which you can probably tell, I absolutely detest to be honest. That's why I usually stick to industrial fans

*Now*, I don't believe in noctuas because 1) Yes, they are quiet but what's the point of them if they don't have any headroom (>45CFM)? I can confirm that Delta fans have better noise to airflow ratio
2) They are not "magical" and they don't nearly have enough pressure. I will probably be bashed for this but ... Heck. They are praised too much

I get many questions like, what fan is best? Well. This is OCN so the very best should be a high-speed delta. But ... Nobody can withstand 66.5dB next to their ear ...

The only things I can advise is to pick a industrial fan. None of the weedy noctuas and again SP120s performance are pretty average once you used *ANY Delta*
The only LED fan to buy is a CM Jetflo 120

Give me more airflow any day, it wouldn't harm anything.
Secondly, most CM fans are still as crap as I know they are, severely overrated. The only one that breaks this tradition is the very fantastic CM Jetflo 120.
Secondly Corsair fans are made badly and their bearings are a variation of sleeve bearings.

Again yeah, Static pressure does magic. Static pressure does good. Static pressure makes you a believer!

NOTE : NOCTUAS OF ANY SORT ARE BANNED HERE.

*High res pics of a high speed delta! DO WANT!*

Some notes before I finish off this edit : BIGGER IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER.


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## ohhgourami

You make many many valid points. This should be put up as a sticky.

I'm actually ditching a "case" completely and using an open test bench instead.


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## nleksan

I think that you make a lot of valid points, but there's one thing I think that should be mentioned...
"THERE IS NO 'BEST' OR ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL FAN CONFIGURATION! The only way to know what performs best for you and your particular setup is to experiment with all different types of fan configurations, logging the temps of each monitored component to see how each is affected by various changes, and then choose your final configuration by what gives you the best all around cooling."

Also, "spot cooling" every component is a terrible way to go as you end up with a cluttered mess of turbulent airflow.

The coolest airflow is the fastest, as air begins absorbing heat the second it enters the case and it's ability to absorb more only declines as it remains in the case. The faster you get the air in and out, the better the cooling.

I like that you bring up static pressure, as it is in my opinion the most important yet overlooked aspect to case airflow. The higher the static pressure of a fan, the more actual airflow it will put out, and typically the higher the airflow velocity will be. Even simple mesh or filters can drop a "regular case fan's" airflow by 2/3rds or more!

Bang up job, though!


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## DaveLT

Alright, i forgot the part about "one-size-fits-all"







I shall add it in now


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## stubass

nice guide but some formatting will make it look and read easier. plus get rid of words like "Stupid" and acronyms like "BS".. they should NOT be used in a guide, "Myth" would be a much better word. still worthy of a rep as there are some good points.


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## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> nice guide but some formatting will make it look and read easier. plus get rid of words like "Stupid" and acronyms like "BS".. they should NOT be used in a guide, "Myth" would be a much better word. still worthy of a rep as there are some good points.


Thanks for your help








I have thus updated the thread and shifted things a little around.
Catch the well-hidden phrases in the entire guide if you want, guys


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## nleksan

Looking better and better! I am glad that you decided to start this guide, as I feel that every few years or so we need to have new guides for just about anything computer related, as components change and get better over time and knowledge is gained, bad habits dropped, misconceptions corrected.

I am also pleased to see that you are looking for constructive criticism, or are willing to change, add, or even remove things as people give advice, suggestions, etc. Many people are not so open minded, or take suggestions well. I can see this becoming what I have always hoped for in terms of guides for cooling: a collection of the wisdom, experience, and knowledge of an entire community condensed and ready to smack noobs with its smartness stick









I have a bunch of thoughts/beliefs/etc that I'd love to write up and have added, if you are willing!


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## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nleksan*
> 
> Looking better and better! I am glad that you decided to start this guide, as I feel that every few years or so we need to have new guides for just about anything computer related, as components change and get better over time and knowledge is gained, bad habits dropped, misconceptions corrected.
> 
> I am also pleased to see that you are looking for constructive criticism, or are willing to change, add, or even remove things as people give advice, suggestions, etc. Many people are not so open minded, or take suggestions well. I can see this becoming what I have always hoped for in terms of guides for cooling: a collection of the wisdom, experience, and knowledge of an entire community condensed and ready to smack noobs with its smartness stick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a bunch of thoughts/beliefs/etc that I'd love to write up and have added, if you are willing!


Not a problem.







I have a guide written up on my blog last year. But it doesn't entirely concern PC Air Cooling
http://the4thpin.comeze.com/archives/1209


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## Artikbot

Nice one Dave!









Perhaps you might want to have a look at my cooling configuration though, it's as weird as it gets, but gets the job done, and beautifully!!



Intake is from front and rear 120mm Yate highs, filtered, running at 3/4 its maximum speed. Exhaust is from three radiator Yate highs running at 1/3-1/2 of its rated speed, out from the top.


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## DaveLT

Untick "import images" Photobucket can be annoying at times


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## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Untick "import images" Photobucket can be annoying at times


Oh yeah, sorry. It is imported from OCN, dunno why doesn't it show up... Fixing it!


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## DaveLT

-reserved-


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## DaveLT

OP updated. More info and major formatting changes


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## Elohim

You make a few decent points but you also make a lot of assumptions i cant really follow... "pointless belief: too much noise?" "always positive pressure" and "as much fans as possible" etc?

i recently built a rig with a HD7850 and a 77W Xeon and the temps are perfect with only two exhaust fans @600 rpm with a fanless D14...
With an additional 1000 rpm fan on the D14 i could easily cool a much much hotter CPU...

MY rule #1: If you want a decent overclock as silent as possible then get high end heatsinks for you CPU/GPU wich work well in low air flow situations and some high quality FDB fans... and dont invest your money in a cheap heatsink and compensate with a lot of high pressure fans..









Again you make some decent points, it's just my two cents coming from a different perspective...


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## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elohim*
> 
> You make a few decent points but you also make a lot of assumptions i cant really follow... "pointless belief: too much noise?" "always positive pressure" and "as much fans as possible" etc?
> 
> i recently built a rig with a HD7850 and a 77W Xeon and the temps are perfect with only two exhaust fans @600 rpm with a fanless D14...
> With an additional 1000 rpm fan on the D14 i could easily cool a much much hotter CPU...
> 
> MY rule #1: If you want a decent overclock as silent as possible then get high end heatsinks for you CPU/GPU wich work well in low air flow situations and some high quality FDB fans... and dont invest your money in a cheap heatsink and compensate with a lot of high pressure fans..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again you make some decent points, it's just my two cents coming from a different perspective...


I forgot that one







I shall add it in.
TBH i was talking about maximum cooling when you're OC'ing. Fine if you're stock. 600rpm case fans will do for a massive cooler, not when you're on a socket with like 130W TDP nominal (I'M LOOKING AT YOU INTEL X79)
Where did you read as much fans as possible? Anyway for maximising air cooling on heavy overclocks as much fans as possible, after all *THIS IS OCN*


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## Elohim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Anyway for maximising air cooling on heavy overclocks as much fans as possible, after all *THIS IS OCN*


Sure, best possible cooler, with as much high pressure fans as possible... if noise doesnt matter.








Personally i obviuosly oc my CPU/GPU, but for 24/7 i'm much more interested in a good balance between a decent oc and minimum noise, if i can get a [email protected],6 GHz easily with low spinning fans, i'm not going to put a bunch of 5000rpm delta fans in my rig just to archieve a 4,8GHz OC (just random numbers as an example), wich brings me next to no additional performance....
if i'd be interested in maximising mx OC i'd definitely go water...

again just my personaly view, so dont be bothered


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## doyll

What Elohim said.


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## DaveLT

I never said to put PFC1212DEs all over your rig







2500rpm fans do fine IMO. No need for 4000rpm.


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## nleksan

I wish that the industry would move towards 30-38mm thick fans as standard instead of 25mm. Thicker fans result in greater static pressure at any given speed, so the effective airflow would increase as well, all with less noise.

I am strongly considering modding my Switch 810 to fit 140x38 and 120x38mm fans in all case fan locations. I am also going to attempt to make a new top that extends another 30-40mm or so, which would allow me to use 140x38 fans or 20mm shrouds with 25mm thick fans on the pull side instead of just the push side.
Since I am making an entire new front panel out of aluminum, and going to try to have one that is 15mm deeper, it should work. I just don't want to ruin the aesthetics. I imagine that making the front panel taller would allow for a taller top as well, though, without breaking the case lines. We'll see...


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## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nleksan*
> 
> I wish that the industry would move towards 30-38mm thick fans as standard instead of 25mm. Thicker fans result in greater static pressure at any given speed, so the effective airflow would increase as well, all with less noise.
> 
> I am strongly considering modding my Switch 810 to fit 140x38 and 120x38mm fans in all case fan locations. I am also going to attempt to make a new top that extends another 30-40mm or so, which would allow me to use 140x38 fans or 20mm shrouds with 25mm thick fans on the pull side instead of just the push side.
> Since I am making an entire new front panel out of aluminum, and going to try to have one that is 15mm deeper, it should work. I just don't want to ruin the aesthetics. I imagine that making the front panel taller would allow for a taller top as well, though, without breaking the case lines. We'll see...


You should carry on, i am thinking of a switch 810!


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## ohhgourami

Open test bench - never worry about case fans or pressure again.


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## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ohhgourami*
> 
> Open test bench - never worry about case fans or pressure again.


Dustfest! That's what happens







According to my own tests, with my L5520 it wasn't any warmer when i put it into my case ... I just have no idea how i was hitting 70C open air.
And yeah i just remembered, that bloody heatsink. Good showpiece though


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## ohhgourami

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Dustfest! That's what happens
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to my own tests, with my L5520 it wasn't any warmer when i put it into my case ... I just have no idea how i was hitting 70C open air.
> And yeah i just remembered, that bloody heatsink. Good showpiece though


I run my cases unfiltered anyway. Now is easier to lug outside to clean.


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## Nous

Great Guide! Subscripted and support!


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## Elohim

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 2500rpm fans do fine IMO.


See, i'm still using my rig with a [email protected]/GTX [email protected], wich is a pretty damn power hungry & hot single GPU system and i'm fine using solely fans with 1000rpm or lower...


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## doyll

What Elohim said. My system never goes above 1050rpm even when running Prime95.. normal max rpm is 950rpm


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## DaveLT

I like my computer with sub 60C temps ... so that's why this thread is about overkill overcooling







Well guys this is OCN after all aka *overkill.net*


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## Baldy

Great informative on air cooling man, you did a fine job and made some really valid points.


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## inVain

Nice write Dave









I do prefer the 38mm thick fans too,



silent operation for my current 65watt chip,
but surely able to handle much moar TDP









turning a knob is so much easier than dealing with 4 screws for fan swapping, IMO


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## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> turning a knob is so much easier than dealing with 4 screws for fan swapping, IMO


Until you have ... a 9CR1212P0G03


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## almighty15

Respect for this!


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## bigredishott

I am really glad I stumbled upon this! This has given me alot to think about, in my OCed rig even in my media box. I will +1 to and add this thread to my favs so, I can easily come back and reread, I am sure I will do so a few times. Thanks for this great write up and I agree with ohhgourami this should be a sticky, if it's not already.


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## DaveLT

Hey guys!


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## nleksan

Needs MOAR fans....


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## DaveLT

Ha, no worries








This is the list of fans i have
1x FFB1212VHE
4x AUB0812HH
2x AUB0912VH
1x TFB0812UHE
3x EFB1212VH
5x AFB1212H (2 is arguably dead, 1 has a broken PWM circuit)
1x AFB1212SH
10x WFB1212M (2 in my rig, 1 is outside, 5 is kept elsewhere. 2 are dead)
1x QFR0612GH
2x FFB0612EHE
4x AUB0412MB
2x FFB0412SHE

Nidec V12E12BS1B5 210CFM monster
6x Nidec VA225
3x FSP9225F-2B01
3x San Ace 9AH0912P4H041
1x 109P0412H302
SUPERRED CHC8012CB-AHET
AVC DF4056R12U
3x AVC DS8025R12U
6x San Ace 9G1212H041
1x San Ace 9G1212C103 (I think)

And i've got MOAR fans on the way and to buy ...


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## DaveLT

Bump, this thread needs more awareness.


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## James4832

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Bump, this thread needs more awareness.


+1 Agreed


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## GraveDigger7878

I needs morz Corsair SP120s!


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## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> I needs morz Corsair SP120s!


I don't talk about SP120s because i don't like Corsair.


----------



## GraveDigger7878

So then my friend what 120mm static pressure fans would you suggest then


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> So then my friend what 120mm static pressure fans would you suggest then


Any on the first post. Most specifically Delta AFB fans


----------



## GraveDigger7878

Thank you good sir ! I will get those fans and make my air cooler awesome. Btw thank you for all the information and research in this thread. Thank you. It was a great read


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> Thank you good sir ! I will get those fans and make my air cooler awesome. Btw thank you for all the information and research in this thread. Thank you. It was a great read


Glad for that alone. Now i can rest in peace


----------



## Mopar63

Great piece, my recent experience with the Silvertsone TJ08-E has made me rethink some things. I found that the single Penetrator fan at the front does an amazing job cooling for me. When compared to a build that uses dual Noctua 120 front and top for intake and then a 150 for exhaust vs the single 180 at the front with a 120 through a radiator for exhaust the Silverstone case gave better system temps by about 8C, this really amazed me. The CPU and GPU temps where within about 2C of the other case setup.

Was this due to the penertrators directed airflow and the case layout soley? I mean I was getting a ton more air into the case with the other setup.


----------



## deepor

It was probably both. Did you know why they chose that directed air flow fan? There's something happening if you have a filter in front of a normal fan. The air will shoot out to the sides behind the fan for some reason, instead of flowing into the empty room directly behind the fan.

That's probably not important if you don't even expect that air to go directly to the CPU cooler in a normal case. You'll have intake fans at the front bottom and bottom. You just want cool air to get into the case and exhaust spent air at the top back. Perhaps in a normal case, the pressure part of a fan's spec gets used up because the air is not moving in a direct, short path.

In the TJ08, they wanted it to flow directly to the back exhaust and they perforated all the metal there. If the air is already flowing in the right direction, this might help with the fan getting closer to its air flow rating and getting more out of its pressure rating. A CPU tower cooler's fan will also add to it.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> Great piece, my recent experience with the Silvertsone TJ08-E has made me rethink some things. I found that the single Penetrator fan at the front does an amazing job cooling for me. When compared to a build that uses dual Noctua 120 front and top for intake and then a 150 for exhaust vs the single 180 at the front with a 120 through a radiator for exhaust the Silverstone case gave better system temps by about 8C, this really amazed me. The CPU and GPU temps where within about 2C of the other case setup.
> 
> Was this due to the penertrators directed airflow and the case layout soley? I mean I was getting a ton more air into the case with the other setup.


Simply because they aren't noctuas. Yes they're low noise and everything but they are low static pressure fans and also low CFM
But also, directed does really help component airflow as what we want is airflow NOT airBLOW








With fans that have stator air foils their airflow pattern is very straight unlike one without a air foil behind a filter
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> It was probably both. Did you know why they chose that directed air flow fan? There's something happening if you have a filter in front of a normal fan. The air will shoot out to the sides behind the fan for some reason, instead of flowing into the empty room directly behind the fan.
> 
> That's probably not important if you don't even expect that air to go directly to the CPU cooler in a normal case. You'll have intake fans at the front bottom and bottom. You just want cool air to get into the case and exhaust spent air at the top back. Perhaps in a normal case, the pressure part of a fan's spec gets used up because the air is not moving in a direct, short path.
> 
> In the TJ08, they wanted it to flow directly to the back exhaust and they perforated all the metal there. If the air is already flowing in the right direction, this might help with the fan getting closer to its air flow rating and getting more out of its pressure rating. A CPU tower cooler's fan will also add to it.


Higher static pressure also helps. The reason is because of how air flows, if your fans are very very close to a filter/HDD the fan will attempt to pull the air through the center where all the static pressure is building up therefore forming a cone and causing a situation where air just goes all over the place. That is why you see servers using fans with air foils, like FFB fans have better thermal performance than those without (despite being louder for a given CFM)
And well a fan's "pressure part" is just the rating for how much restriction it can overcome. Fans don't pressurize air, they aren't force induction devices


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> we want is airflow NOT airBLOW


Seems I've heard that before somewhere.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Seems I've heard that before somewhere.


Hello there


----------



## GraveDigger7878

Alright so the fans your suggested earlier, the delta afb, are they the 3 blade design ones? Also wanted to confirm that I should be looking at 120x38. Also I was wondering if this fan is best for intake or exhaust or is good at both. I can't seem to find where to buy these delta fans


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> Alright so the fans your suggested earlier, the delta afb, are they the 3 blade design ones? Also wanted to confirm that I should be looking at 120x38. Also I was wondering if this fan is best for intake or exhaust or is good at both. I can't seem to find where to buy these delta fans


No, 7 blade. 3 blade designs are EFB.
It's your choice whether you want *E or just example AFB1212H < 120x25. A great fan i came across is a AFB1212M. Sounds pleasant and isn't loud at all. Yet has smooth voltage control and PWM control (Unlike the noctuas i have tested)


----------



## GraveDigger7878

Alright, now where can I buy them?


----------



## DaveLT

Uh, err ... Google them







Or you can also buy this one
http://www.cwc-group.com/8008944.html
AFB fans sometimes come cheap. Or you can buy a WFB1212HE that delivers a metric butt-ton of airflow if you're just using it as a case fan. In fact i've seen them go for 9 bucks.


----------



## GraveDigger7878

http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1224mac54.html

What about a bunch of these bad boys?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1224mac54.html
> 
> What about a bunch of these bad boys?


24V


----------



## GraveDigger7878

oopse.... my bad. I will continue to search!


----------



## Moragg

Great guide you have here! After seeing how cheap those Deltas are I'm very tempted to try a few. Are there any cheap (less than £10 each) 140mm Deltas you would recommend, or are 120mm the best option? These would be for an Arc Midi R2, which has fairly heavy filters. The included fans are pretty weak tbh







I'm just a bit worried about the ticking noise you mentioned - I'd like to be able to run them near-silent for browsing (under 20dB would be ideal) but then crank them up for games/benching.

I've had a look at delta's site before, but the naming system scared me off







so any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## GraveDigger7878

Right now it is down to monies and there are some places selling deltas for like $9 and most others selling for $20+. That seems soooo odd to me.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moragg*
> 
> Great guide you have here! After seeing how cheap those Deltas are I'm very tempted to try a few. Are there any cheap (less than £10 each) 140mm Deltas you would recommend, or are 120mm the best option? These would be for an Arc Midi R2, which has fairly heavy filters. The included fans are pretty weak tbh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just a bit worried about the ticking noise you mentioned - I'd like to be able to run them near-silent for browsing (under 20dB would be ideal) but then crank them up for games/benching.
> 
> I've had a look at delta's site before, but the naming system scared me off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so any help is greatly appreciated.


Don't bother with 140mm. I've been very dissapointed with most of them. There aren't any cheap delta 140x25 (I'm not even sure if they exist)
Arc Midi R2 has a lame excuse for a filter right? - A foam filter that is
I got a few new deltas and i don't experience ticking issues anymore ... Strange. I tested my FFB again and it doesn't exhibit that. Again very strange

Here's some help :
AFB - standard 7-blade no stator air foil, highest CFM but the most dispersed airflow of any delta.
FFB - 9-blade with stator air foil, a lil higher noise per CFM
WFB - 7-leaf ish blades, lower static pressure but in the end AFB fans outperform them. Only benefit is their low, low price
EFB (Rare) - 3 blade very steep curve. AFB fans outperform them and their design is a bit long in the tooth already, only nice for their sweet tone
PFB (Rare) - 11 blade Doesn't have the whine the FFB fans have but of course aren't as focused as the FFB series are, quieter and nicer tone
AUB (Rare) - Are actually AFB fans spec-wise but are a bit strange. Acoustically like AFB fans but i'm not too sure
The other series are not within our concern
Then here's the naming strategy - like for example AFB1224M
AFB is the series, 12 is the size 24 is the volts, like 24v. M means the speed rating. 25mm thick fans don't have any lettering behind them but 38mm thick fans are written with a E behind, 32mm are F and 28mm are N

There are also the **C models (example AFC1212DE) which are either OEM versions of the **B models (AFC1212DE 1.6A = AFB1212SHE, AFC1212DE 3.0A = AFB1212GHE) or Sensflow (WFC1212D, AFC1212D) models or new models of the **B or so i've been told ... Like the FFC1212DE which i've put forward for now but i really want that fan being that i own the FFB1212VHE (PWM of course) and i love it
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> Right now it is down to monies and there are some places selling deltas for like $9 and most others selling for $20+. That seems soooo odd to me.


Odd indeed.


----------



## GraveDigger7878

What is your opinion of Yate Loon fans?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> What is your opinion of Yate Loon fans?


I did test them but ... it didn't end too well. The blades are so flimsy they broke after i accidentally stuck my finger into it @1500rpm. My deltas don't do this, they would cause quite a bit of pain









Otherwise ... Meh. they are meh fans at best. Overrated by about 30% (static pressure not up to what they specify) and use sleeve bearings. I wouldn't use any sleeve bearing fans or even recommend them as they get classified by me as "garbage"









I use only 2-ball (single ball is noisier by a lot) and/or hydro. I don't use more than 1 hydro because 1) Good luck when the bearings start wearing out they're hard to access (you have to cut off the top and then after that putting it back together is hard) 2) Most of the time, expensive. Noctua "SSO" bearings are actually hydro bearings
Unless i bought AVC hydro fans







(actually i do have one, a 4000rpm 80mm AVC hydro that is) i only use the deepcool SF120 fans that came with my 2 heatsinks because they're decent for exhaust and are well-built.
Hell my HTPC outside uses a 2-ball 92mm PWM San Ace (120mm wouldn't fit because of the weird motherboard design flaw) and a WFB1212M. The fan on the heatsink came with the 3$ heatsink and is a hydro bearing (LOL)


----------



## Moragg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Don't bother with 140mm. I've been very dissapointed with most of them. There aren't any cheap delta 140x25 (I'm not even sure if they exist)
> Arc Midi R2 has a lame excuse for a filter right? - A foam filter that is
> I got a few new deltas and i don't experience ticking issues anymore ... Strange. I tested my FFB again and it doesn't exhibit that. Again very strange


I think the idea is to reduce noise. The filters do get rid of most of the dust, though the one on the bottom is very thin.

Unfortunately Delta only seem to be available in the US







which means customs and VAT and shipping for me. As far as I can tell they almost all hit 40+dB and pull crazy amounts of power - I assume a good PWM fan controller would sort that out but that just adds to the cost. The operating voltages can't be dropped far, but with PWM how low can you go before the fan stops being useful? 30% or even lower? Maybe in a few years when I do a full custom build, but for now I'll wait. Will definitely be pointing people to this thread though, you cleared up a lot of things (and I even understand the names now







)


----------



## DaveLT

Uh, not all deltas hit 40+dB (no, they don't) and they don't pull crazy power. Look at my FFB1212VHE. Pushes 152CFM and only pulls 1A (not 1.5A, that's the surge current) I am going to use it with my motherboard with the power plugged it through molex

These aren't your typical PWM fans either. They will go below 10% but they won't stop. 550rpm is the minimum for my afb1212h at about 10% i think?

Haha absolutely


----------



## Moragg

Really? I was just going off their site's specs, as far as I can see only a few fans dip below 40dB. The 140mm ones would be quite tempting if they weren't so ridiculously expensive - most go for higher CFM and sameish static pressure, so should be very quiet and effective in the 10% to 30% speed range. Though they all seem to be above 12V









Does speed/cfm/static pressure drop linearly using PWM? Delta's have ridiculous pressure so that isn't a concern, but noise is the big concern. If that drops linearly I could run a 200CFM fan at 25% and get <20dB which would be pretty amazing.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Moragg*
> 
> Really? I was just going off their site's specs, as far as I can see only a few fans dip below 40dB. The 140mm ones would be quite tempting if they weren't so ridiculously expensive - most go for higher CFM and sameish static pressure, so should be very quiet and effective in the 10% to 30% speed range. Though they all seem to be above 12V
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does speed/cfm/static pressure drop linearly using PWM? Delta's have ridiculous pressure so that isn't a concern, but noise is the big concern. If that drops linearly I could run a 200CFM fan at 25% and get <20dB which would be pretty amazing.


Every fan size increase gives you more CFM but a big drop in static pressure - You need to make it thicker or else the static pressure falls exponentially
120mm (Of all 25mm thick fans) fans are the most balanced when it comes to CFM-Static pressure ratio

Yes, speed/cfm/static pressure drop linearly


----------



## RoarGasm

Guys I have a few questions, hoping you guys could answer them here.

1. According to OP, the top fan should be set to intake and not exhaust. Is this correct?
2. I have a Phanteks PH-TC12DX that comes with two fans. Should these both be facing the same direction, which is: case exhaust fan | *rear heatsink fan exhausting | Heatsink | front heatsink fan intaking* | front of case
3. I have a top mounted PSU, should this have the fan facing up or down? I do have vents on the top of my case, so I'm not sure which option to take. If it is facing up, it is getting cool air and exhausting immediately, while if its facing down, it is getting warm air from the Phanteks and exhausting it.


----------



## DaveLT

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Facing down yes but i can't imagine you have a case that has the PSU top-mounted ... Your PSU is top mounted and the case has vents for it? Face it up then


----------



## RoarGasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 1) Yes.
> 2) Yes.
> 3) Facing down yes but i can't imagine you have a case that has the PSU top-mounted ... Your PSU is top mounted and the case has vents for it? Face it up then


Thanks for answering all my questions.

Regarding question 3:

http://pretaktovani.cz/text/obr2/Thermaltake-Xaser-VI-Super-Tower-Chassis2.jpg

This is my case. In the picture you can see the PSU location (top left), and two vents on the top cover of the case that allow air to come through.

In this case, I should keep the PSU face up for better airflow right?
Should I decide to put it face down (cabling will look better this way), will it have a big difference in temperatures, or will it be irrelevant?


----------



## DaveLT

Facing up. It will be a sore thumb to everything else, acting as a secondary exhaust









It will definitely have a effect on PSU longevity, in this case it's longer if you face it up.


----------



## RoarGasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Facing up. It will be a sore thumb to everything else, acting as a secondary exhaust
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will definitely have a effect on PSU longevity, in this case it's longer if you face it up.


Thought so. It will look a bit messier face up, however it probably is more worth it that way since it will be getting cooler air constantly rather than sucking in the case's hot air.

Thanks for clearing everything up!


----------



## GraveDigger7878

So I have a 120mm rad with push/pull. Should I mount it as the rear exhaust or should I mount it at the top of the case? I have room for 2 120mm fans at the top, the case is a CM Storm Trooper


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> So I have a 120mm rad with push/pull. Should I mount it as the rear exhaust or should I mount it at the top of the case? I have room for 2 120mm fans at the top, the case is a CM Storm Trooper


Rear exhaust first


----------



## Mopar63

Dave I am looking to move from my Noctua fans in a few builds based on your reccomendations. What are your thoughts on Silverstone Penetrators?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> Dave I am looking to move from my Noctua fans in a few builds based on your reccomendations. What are your thoughts on Silverstone Penetrators?


Nice fans but no match for the delta FFBs though








Just kidding, they will definitely increase airflow if there isn't any HDDs in front of it. Most cases that have fans in front of HDDs literally just cool the HDDs and nothing else.


----------



## Mopar63

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Nice fans but no match for the delta FFBs though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding, they will definitely increase airflow if there isn't any HDDs in front of it. Most cases that have fans in front of HDDs literally just cool the HDDs and nothing else.


Oh I 100% agree. I have always said the whole sideways mounting of HD bays was dumb as it restricted the front air flow way to much. When I buy a case one of the first things I do is pull out the HD bays. I am a pure SSD user and so can mount it in places that are out of the way. When I am thinking is using a Prodigy with dual 120 in the front and top for intake and then a single 120 radiator setup, like an H60 in the rear exhausting. My hope is to get enough air flow that I can use a windowed side panel and not choke my GPU fans.

If I overclock at all on the CPU it will be light, 4 GHz at most with no voltage tweaking, except down. I am wanting cool and quiet for the build. I have Noctuas already, PWM, so I could control the noise level but from what I am reading here they are just not good choices for this.


----------



## GraveDigger7878

So right now I have high static pressure fans going in as front intake fans which is to my understanding of re-reading the front page, the best setup for the front intake. In fact I do not have any "high airflow" style fans in my case. They are all high SP style fans.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GraveDigger7878*
> 
> So right now I have high static pressure fans going in as front intake fans which is to my understanding of re-reading the front page, the best setup for the front intake. In fact I do not have any "high airflow" style fans in my case. They are all high SP style fans.


No such thing as "high airflow" style fans, in open air yes but given my testing bench and typical usage they have non-existent airflow







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> Oh I 100% agree. I have always said the whole sideways mounting of HD bays was dumb as it restricted the front air flow way to much. When I buy a case one of the first things I do is pull out the HD bays. I am a pure SSD user and so can mount it in places that are out of the way. When I am thinking is using a Prodigy with dual 120 in the front and top for intake and then a single 120 radiator setup, like an H60 in the rear exhausting. My hope is to get enough air flow that I can use a windowed side panel and not choke my GPU fans.
> 
> If I overclock at all on the CPU it will be light, 4 GHz at most with no voltage tweaking, except down. I am wanting cool and quiet for the build. I have Noctuas already, PWM, so I could control the noise level but from what I am reading here they are just not good choices for this.


That's why somebody has to produce a design like that


----------



## DaveLT

I just had to add this
Haswell =
Here we have Ivy that is hot enough and then haswell running a few 100MHz below Ivy and still burning like a frigging comet on a doomsday vector with the surface of the sun.

There's not much you can do with the heat of a haswell.


----------



## GraveDigger7878

That is why for the moment I am perfectly happy with my 2600k!


----------



## Haelous

I found this thread looking for some Air Cooling tips, and just want to confirm a couple things if you don't mind helping out.

The case I want to work with is an older Lian-Li V2000b plus II. From the factory, this case is rear intake, upper side exhaust.

I would be using a GPU with the OEM blower-type cooler, so I'm assuming upper-side intake.

I will be using a NH-D14 so I'm assuming rear exhaust.

I am considering adding an upper front fan (either BZ-502B or EX-36B1) and I was planning to position it in the bottom 5.25 bays to feed air into the NH-D14. This will be beneficial, yes?

Lastly, Corsair SP120 > Noctua NF-F12 > Corsair AF120 > Noctua NF-P12?


----------



## DaveLT

Firstly,
Side fan intake
Absolutely. But you can always put some foam and then suspend your fan there, it worked fine for me. Well at least until i placed a FFB1212VHE and i couldn't withstand the vibration of it spinning up like a V16 Quadturbo diesel ...

Wut? No AF120 please. For god's sake don't.


----------



## Haelous

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Firstly,
> Side fan intake
> Absolutely. But you can always put some foam and then suspend your fan there, it worked fine for me. Well at least until i placed a FFB1212VHE and i couldn't withstand the vibration of it spinning up like a V16 Quadturbo diesel ...


Suspend the fan in foam in the front? I'd still need bays that have holes in them since the first gen V-series have solid bay covers, and I may have use for the drive caddy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Wut? No AF120 please. For god's sake don't.


I was ranking them with the greater than symbol, best to worse. Is the P12 actually better than an AF120 then?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Haelous*
> 
> Suspend the fan in foam in the front? I'd still need bays that have holes in them since the first gen V-series have solid bay covers, and I may have use for the drive caddy.
> I was ranking them with the greater than symbol, best to worse. Is the P12 actually better than an AF120 then?


Oh I see. I wouldn't say it's better since i don't support Noctuas but still any delta fan will kick the snot out of them


----------



## stubass

Hi Dave,

What fans would you recommend for a CM Seidon 120M AIO cooler???

I know it is NOT the best of Coolers but it soul purpose is to test CPU's and OC them as much as I can to save OC profiles before i put them under DICE. So no case, just mounted to my ghetto test bed lol.

Dont care if the roar like a jet plane if that is optimal for this cooler


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> What fans would you recommend for a CM Seidon 120M AIO cooler???
> 
> I know it is NOT the best of Coolers but it soul purpose is to test CPU's and OC them as much as I can to save OC profiles before i put them under DICE. So no case, just mounted to my ghetto test bed lol.
> 
> Dont care if the roar like a jet plane if that is optimal for this cooler


Hmm, let me guess. It's roughly about 20FPI or thereof.
So i'll be guessing ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-120mm-Fans-Dell-P-N-D8794-Model-AFC1212DE-/111184352399?pt=US_Computer_Case_Fans&hash=item19e31a948f
1 or 2 of these, cut of the plugs and crimp a pwm plug + molex


----------



## stubass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> What fans would you recommend for a CM Seidon 120M AIO cooler???
> 
> I know it is NOT the best of Coolers but it soul purpose is to test CPU's and OC them as much as I can to save OC profiles before i put them under DICE. So no case, just mounted to my ghetto test bed lol.
> 
> Dont care if the roar like a jet plane if that is optimal for this cooler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, let me guess. It's roughly about 20FPI or thereof.
> So i'll be guessing ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-120mm-Fans-Dell-P-N-D8794-Model-AFC1212DE-/111184352399?pt=US_Computer_Case_Fans&hash=item19e31a948f
> 1 or 2 of these, cut of the plugs and crimp a pwm plug + molex
Click to expand...

Sounds good to me tho I wonder if i can find these locally since ebay reckons $26.38 in shipping.. If there is anymore rec's feel free to share, teach, impart









BTW, if you feel they would be the best, i will bite the bullet and order


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Sounds good to me tho I wonder if i can find these locally since ebay reckons $26.38 in shipping.. If there is anymore rec's feel free to share, teach, impart
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, if you feel they would be the best, i will bite the bullet and order


Find one with low shipping







The equivalent model is AFB1212SHE


----------



## stubass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Sounds good to me tho I wonder if i can find these locally since ebay reckons $26.38 in shipping.. If there is anymore rec's feel free to share, teach, impart
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, if you feel they would be the best, i will bite the bullet and order
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Find one with low shipping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The equivalent model is AFB1212SHE
Click to expand...

Will do a search, cheers matey


----------



## uaedroid

DaveLT, what is the temp difference or improvement between using push-pull config from push only?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaedroid*
> 
> DaveLT, what is the temp difference or improvement between using push-pull config from push only?


At the same fan speed on LOW heat output is not going to make any difference. Push-pull really comes into picture once you have a 300W+ TDP proc pushing heat








Besides that the main difference is noise. Much less noise in push-pull because you don't have to ramp up fan speed no matter what heat load you have

and also i believe that push or pull doesn't make any difference. They perform the same regardless


----------



## uaedroid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> At the same fan speed on LOW heat output is not going to make any difference. Push-pull really comes into picture once you have a 300W+ TDP proc pushing heat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides that the main difference is noise. Much less noise in push-pull because you don't have to ramp up fan speed no matter what heat load you have
> 
> and also i believe that push or pull doesn't make any difference. They perform the same regardless


I am currenty using an AIO Cooler, the Eisberg 240L, so no need for me to go for push-pull config as there would be little improvement? I am using on it 2 SP120 High Performance Fans.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaedroid*
> 
> I am currenty using an AIO Cooler, the Eisberg 240L, so no need for me to go for push-pull config as there would be little improvement? I am using on it 2 SP120 High Performance Fans.


Grab whatever spare fan you have and give it a shot, it might help it might not. It will help if the fins are dense (H100i as an example) but considering the Seidon 240M is getting H100i-ish performance with those severely overrated fans it might be ... less dense. Not sure though.
If it's 20FPI then you'll definitely need push-pull to push the maximum it can handle/dissipate


----------



## uaedroid

Thanks a lot Dave for your insights! + rep !


----------



## FranBunnyFFXII

Wow cool thread, posting so i can get a sub for this. Everyone's nuts over liquid cooling but it aint my cup of tea, I want fully air cooled for my next rig.

I'm looking at coolers like the coolermaster GTS V8, and Frio Advanced 130mm.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FranBunnyFFXII*
> 
> Wow cool thread, posting so i can get a sub for this. Everyone's nuts over liquid cooling but it aint my cup of tea, I want fully air cooled for my next rig.
> 
> I'm looking at coolers like the coolermaster GTS V8, and Frio Advanced 130mm.


Drop both of them, the phanteks TC-14PE will eat them for lunch


----------



## FranBunnyFFXII

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Drop both of them, the phanteks TC-14PE will eat them for lunch


Too damn ugly.

/vain

also i was looking up reviews, and one done by hardwarecanucks the v6 GT beat the phanteks you suggested, well in stock config anyways, and the V8 GTS is better than the V6


----------



## jlhawn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FranBunnyFFXII*
> 
> Too damn ugly.
> 
> /vain
> 
> also i was looking up reviews, and one done by hardwarecanucks the v6 GT beat the phanteks you suggested, well in stock config anyways, and the V8 GTS is better than the V6


the cooler master V8 is a big pain to install, watch their install video, you can google it.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FranBunnyFFXII*
> 
> Too damn ugly.
> 
> /vain
> 
> also i was looking up reviews, and one done by hardwarecanucks the v6 GT beat the phanteks you suggested, well in stock config anyways, and the V8 GTS is better than the V6


Nah. Everyone agrees the phanteks/nh-d14/sliver arrow extreme eats any CM heatsink for lunch.

But when i say that i'm talking about big heat loads, if you only have a small heat load then let CM steal your money for all i care, for i will buy a Deepcool Gamer Storm off Amazon for 38$









Also, the part where TC-14PE fails is a SINGLE FAN, lol. Who in the world uses a single fan on a dual tower is beyond me. But it's only in 1 chart


----------



## FranBunnyFFXII

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jlhawn*
> 
> the cooler master V8 is a big pain to install, watch their install video, you can google it.


working with laptops is a massive pain in the ass too but i did it anyways









If you watch my build vid in my build log you'll see how much of a pain that damn bezel and keyboard was >_>


----------



## ohhgourami

How to not have to deal with case fans:


----------



## uaedroid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ohhgourami*
> 
> How to not have to deal with case fans:


Nya ha ha! Nice one!


----------



## DaveLT

I would still use the FFB1212VHE for benching though









Besides, DUST AHOY!


----------



## ohhgourami

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I would still use the FFB1212VHE for benching though


It's my permanent case


----------



## CaseClocked

Hey guys and Dave!
Finally decided to join the forum for some advise about the cooling setup of my new rig.

But let's cut into the case already.









I have a Corsair 750D an AX760i PSU, Maximus VI Hero with a 4670K in a Corsair H100i.

I have used the official Corsair photos to blend a picture similar to my rig and my needs to describe what setup I'm thinking about.



The case has already 3 140mm pre-installed fans. Two on the front one in the rear. The are Corsair AF140L's (AF140 Quiet Editions without the fancy stuff the aftermarket ones come with).
Also the AIO hydro comes with two SP120 similar to SP120 High Performance Edition with PWM.

I have already bought the twin pack of SP120 High Performance Edition with PWM for an in&out radiator setup.

What I want after carefully reading your guide is to have the following final setup.

-The 4 SP120 in the radiator pushing air upwards as an exhaust.
-Keep an AF140 as a rear exhaust for quick air release and possible put another one under the GPU. (That just popped to my head, I don't know if it'll prove useless).
-Put 2 Noctua NF-A14 PWM on the front which have great pressure even if they are 140mm fans.
-Put a fat (120x120x38) fan on the bottom for a powerful intake, possible a Scythe Ultra Kaze 2000rpm or a 3000rpm at 7v, but I want your recommendations too.
-Last but not least should I use the top-front fan mount as an intake or will it prove useless too? (upper-right blue arrow)

Also I found out that the red tinted part is getting isolated due to the double fan setup on the radiator. Should I close the gap with foam or something else suitable, so there won't be trapped air there (I know I'm over-thinking it).

P.S.: I don't have a GPU yet, but it'll probably be a dual slot with reference fan (and later maybe an aftermarket will take its place).

P.S. 2: I know you love Deltas Dave, but I want to get stuff I can buy in my country, so please try to give me close alternatives and sorry that I get you to play around with Corsair and Noctua fans you don't like.









I want to get as many opinions possible, not only Dave's, and you can change everything I've put on the image.


----------



## DaveLT

Drop the AF140 exhaust and put a SP120 as a intake and filter it from the back








Case in point, i'd rather put SP120s up front. Notice how i don't recommend any 140mm fans? They all suck.
Don't.Ever.Put.An.Exhaust.Right.Below.Your.GPU. Maybe you don't understand the concept of how a GPU fan is intaking air








You don't need a 120x38 on the bottom. Just a 2-odd mmh2o fan will do okay there with a filter
Use the top front fan mount as intake to intake from the front not the top but considering the 750D is completely closed up ... intake from the front then

Nope, no trapped air. We're not dealing with forced induction, air will still find it's way through IF it's not a weedy noctua









Reference will exhaust from the back so a bottom fan helps alot if you have a open grille below it. Aftermarket

Well, if that's all you have it's better than CM fans.

EDIT: So i went and played around with a 750D i borrowed from my mate and 2 NF-A14 (don't ask me why) and a AF140 as well as a few SP120s
1) Dropping the AF140 exhaust and turning it into a SP120 intake with filter improves airflow
2) Dropping 140mm fans and putting SP120s up front helps temps
3) And as i said noctuas are really weedy ... Harmed temps going from SP120 to NF-A14 in front


----------



## CaseClocked

Thanks Dave,
So which SP120 do you recommend.
The best I have found through forums are:

Noctua NF-F12
Corsair SP120 PWM High Performance (the quiet ones are not enough, especially for radiators)
Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm
And one that is not coming up in the forums, but I think is good is :

Cougar Vortex PWM CF-V12HP 120mm
What else do you recommend and which one for each part of the case?

Thanks


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaseClocked*
> 
> Thanks Dave,
> So which SP120 do you recommend.
> The best I have found through forums are:
> 
> Noctua NF-F12
> Corsair SP120 PWM High Performance (the quiet ones are not enough, especially for radiators)
> Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm
> And one that is not coming up in the forums, but I think is good is :
> 
> Cougar Vortex PWM CF-V12HP 120mm
> What else do you recommend and which one for each part of the case?
> 
> Thanks


Grab the GT. Everywhere in the case


----------



## CaseClocked

Thanks again,
I have one last Q.

If I decide to grab some Deltas from the net, sometime in the future, which ones?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaseClocked*
> 
> Thanks again,
> I have one last Q.
> 
> If I decide to grab some Deltas from the net, sometime in the future, which ones?


AFBs absolutely. They are best performing fans on the market

Or if you want pure case fans and don't care how loud they are, FFBs. They're bred to do that sort of thing


----------



## CaseClocked

Have you tried the FFBs on very low voltage? Like if they were PWMs and I was giving them 20% would they still be audible and if no, would they still perform around 20% of max speed performance?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaseClocked*
> 
> Have you tried the FFBs on very low voltage? Like if they were PWMs and I was giving them 20% would they still be audible and if no, would they still perform around 20% of max speed performance?


I haven't tried PWM since i do not have my PWM splitter yet (the one with power to the molex and only 1 fan tach+4 fan PWM) although i could try it on my motherboard since my rig as it is now can run without fans on the heatsink









But on low voltage they make a huge rumble before spinning up. I don't mean just huge i mean EARTHQUAKE. Yeah. Warning if you have a CM case you definitely have to get O-rings to decouple it
Even with foam in the front bay it makes a huge earthquake ... it's violent. Decoupled though they are really silent
On the lowest voltage it still pushes a surprisingly huge amount of air. Mind you it's only 3200RPM and it pushes 153CFM


----------



## CaseClocked

I don't need that kind of power and noise, so probably will go for AFB when I find a reasonable shipping cost from one of the selling sites.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaseClocked*
> 
> I don't need that kind of power and noise, so probably will go for AFB when I find a reasonable shipping cost from one of the selling sites.


AFB1212H is a cheap and superior alternative to any static pressure fans out there and i still prefer it over a GT sound signature
They're really good even used also though
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Dell-XPS-9100-Front-12v-Case-Cooling-Fan-Assembly-AFB1212H-M765N-/180979784260?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a233c5a44

http://www.cwc-group.com/8008944.html
this fan is actually good, if you don't mind the ABS plastic used on it. Deltas and San Aces use PBT plastic so less warping noise at full speed
Oddly it's hard to find PWM versions of it

http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212lr00.html
Lowest speed version, it still creates a crazy amount of static pressure


----------



## CaseClocked

I just hoped they had a more silent approach in some aspects (rubber corners) etc.

Also, what you said about plastic, which models has the best one? And what exactly are those AVC fans you have in your original post and on this last one?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaseClocked*
> 
> I just hoped they had a more silent approach in some aspects (rubber corners) etc.
> 
> Also, what you said about plastic, which models has the best one? And what exactly are those AVC fans you have in your original post and on this last one?


Rubber corners? Proper fans DON'T NEED rubber corners








Every single delta is made from PBT
Those are 80mm fans


----------



## bloodyredd

Hi Dave, I would like to ask what fans would you recommend to me to have better airflow and temperatures. The case that I am currently using is Bitfenix Ghost and all of my fans are stock.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloodyredd*
> 
> Hi Dave, I would like to ask what fans would you recommend to me to have better airflow and temperatures. The case that I am currently using is Bitfenix Ghost and all of my fans are stock.


What's your budget?

In any case a static pressure fan is a even BIGGER must for any case like that. Sometimes when you have noise insulating purposes ... you often sacrifice temps alot ... which if you want it to cool as well as the other cases you have to compensate for that


----------



## bloodyredd

Well I can't really say since I could probably buy them anyway but what restricts me are the brands being sold by retailers. They currently have Corsair, Noctua, Deep Cool, Bitfenix, NZXT, Scythe Jyuni & Gentle Typhoon and Air Penetrator. Which of those would you prefer? I'm leaning towards corsair but I still have yet to decide.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloodyredd*
> 
> Well I can't really say since I could probably buy them anyway but what restricts me are the brands being sold by retailers. They currently have Corsair, Noctua, Deep Cool, Bitfenix, NZXT, Scythe Jyuni & Gentle Typhoon and Air Penetrator. Which of those would you prefer? I'm leaning towards corsair but I still have yet to decide.


Gentle typhoon. Deep Cool for the looks but it lacks static pressure


----------



## mam72

Love the guide, Its good to see someone willing to say that Noctua fans are not that great and busting annoying myths. DaveLT you seem to have a fascination with deltas, I always thought they were loud, can they be quieter than a GT AP15 at 5v?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> Love the guide, Its good to see someone willing to say that Noctua fans are not that great and busting annoying myths. DaveLT you seem to have a fascination with deltas, I always thought they were loud, can they be quieter than a GT AP15 at 5v?


Well yeah, you could possibly. AFB1212L is well, 32dB on stock but it has far better airflow than the AP-15 does

Not sure how it performs because i don't have one but 1 AFB1212H on 550rpm is so awfully quiet you can't hear it AT ALL


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Well yeah, you could possibly. AFB1212L is well, 32dB on stock but it has far better airflow than the AP-15 does
> 
> Not sure how it performs because i don't have one but 1 AFB1212H on 550rpm is so awfully quiet you can't hear it AT ALL


The Delta spec sheets showed that these fans run between 7-13 volts. Can they run at 5v?

What is your opinion on shrouds on heatsinks? I found that the shroud quietened the fans down so I could run the fans at a higher RPM before they bothered me, it also reduced the growl of the GT's at higher speeds.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> The Delta spec sheets showed that these fans run between 7-13 volts. Can they run at 5v?


A friend of mine gave me two used Delta WFB1212H,
the data sheet said their operating voltage are 7.0-13.8v.

I can run them at 5.5v, but they still need at least 7.0v to start spinning though.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> The Delta spec sheets showed that these fans run between 7-13 volts. Can they run at 5v?
> 
> What is your opinion on shrouds on heatsinks? I found that the shroud quietened the fans down so I could run the fans at a higher RPM before they bothered me, it also reduced the growl of the GT's at higher speeds.


For the AFB series 5v will get them going

Shrouds actually improve airflow so if you can do it. Not many people like shrouds nor have the means to fab a full panel acrylic shroud
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> A friend of mine gave me two used Delta WFB1212H,
> the data sheet said their operating voltage are 7.0-13.8v.
> 
> I can run them at 5.5v, but they still need at least 7.0v to start spinning though.


Really depends on the internal circuit. The F00s will start at 5V and the BF00s + BR00s will start at 5v BUT not the R00


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Shrouds actually improve airflow so if you can do it. Not many people like shrouds nor have the means to fab a full panel acrylic shroud
> Really depends on the internal circuit. The F00s will start at 5V and the BF00s + BR00s will start at 5v BUT not the R00


gotta admit that I'm not into that full detailed guy when it's come to the model number









let's see the few last characters of the fans when we clean up these Deltas









anyway, thanks for pointing that out, Dave


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> gotta admit that I'm not into that full detailed guy when it's come to the model number
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> let's see the few last characters of the fans when we clean up these Deltas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anyway, thanks for pointing that out, Dave


I was specifically talking about the WFB1212Ms i don't even have a single non-PWM AFB with me









The only non-pwm deltas i have are in fact WFB1212Ms LOL (and 2x EUB0412MD as well as FFB0612SHE ... Not worth mentioning)


----------



## CaseClocked

Hey Dave, back again for another question. The 750D doesn't have a filter on the bottom, do you have any good filters to recommend, or you do not use filters at all.


----------



## doyll

Not to interrupt but Silverstone magnetic mounting filters work very well.
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product_access.php?tno=9&area=en

I cheat and tied a piece of ribbon through one hole and let it hang down under case to grab when pulling filter off to clean. Also glued some 'L' shaped pieces on two opposing corners to index filter when putting it back on.

Have also found raising case so there is at least 35-40mm clearance between case and what it sets on lowers fan noise and increase airflow. (Area of fan equals area of circumference times clearance)


----------



## CaseClocked

Thanks for this man, I prefer the FF123 which is the most simple, but one a first glance, can't find it in my country's stores.


----------



## doyll

FF122 is a good alternative. Nobody is going to see it on the bottom of your case.. even if it's sets on your desk.









I'm using FF141's and would prefer FF143's but they were not being made when I got mine a few years back.


----------



## DaveLT

What doyll said. He's probably on a different league than i am


----------



## CaseClocked

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> FF122 is a good alternative. Nobody is going to see it on the bottom of your case.. even if it's sets on your desk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm using FF141's and would prefer FF143's but they were not being made when I got mine a few years back.


I found FF143 but they are for like 9 euros each, which is kinda of a rip-off, when I can find FF122-FF142 for half the price.


----------



## doyll

If you want pretty check out DEMCiflex filters.. They used to be even high priced than they are now.








http://www.demcifilter.com/

I don't know if they are any better. I suspect about the same. Dave may know.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> If you want pretty check out DEMCiflex filters.. They used to be even high priced than they are now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.demcifilter.com/
> 
> I don't know if they are any better. I suspect about the same. Dave may know.


I would say demciflex are really just better. It justifies the price difference. Silverstone for those who don't need to eke out every single bit of unrestricted airflow you can get behind a filter demciflex for those you know ...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I would say demciflex are really just better. It justifies the price difference. Silverstone for those who don't need to eke out every single bit of unrestricted airflow you can get behind a filter demciflex for those you know ...


Any data / links to show the difference?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Any data / links to show the difference?


Data? Only my hand


----------



## CaseClocked

I saw they have specific kits for each Case, I just emailed them to ask them when they are releasing a 750D kit, will post back if I get an answer.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CaseClocked*
> 
> I saw they have specific kits for each Case, I just emailed them to ask them when they are releasing a 750D kit, will post back if I get an answer.


Fantastic.


----------



## richie_2010

hi guys. im thinking of getting the corsair 750d and was thinking of upgrading all of my fans (yes i have noctuas and apache's)i will be using push pull on the top for my h100 and push pull on the back for my 620/h60.

which fans would you say would be better to get
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Scythe-Gentle-Typhoon-120mm-Case-Fan-1850-RPM-D1225C12B5AP-15-/400526919102?pt=UK_Computing_Case_Fans&hash=item5d4143c5be 11 of them would be £133
where as 12 corsair sp 120s http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171109276277 would be £138


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *richie_2010*
> 
> hi guys. im thinking of getting the corsair 750d and was thinking of upgrading all of my fans (yes i have noctuas and apache's)i will be using push pull on the top for my h100 and push pull on the back for my 620/h60.
> 
> which fans would you say would be better to get
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Scythe-Gentle-Typhoon-120mm-Case-Fan-1850-RPM-D1225C12B5AP-15-/400526919102?pt=UK_Computing_Case_Fans&hash=item5d4143c5be 11 of them would be £133
> where as 12 corsair sp 120s http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171109276277 would be £138


Any reason you are thinking of changing all your fans?

The corsair fans are not good on radiators as the air will escape through the spaces in the fan, the AP15s on the other hand are fine unless you run them at around 1100RPM, this is around the point the growl, you can get around this by using a shroud (a old fan will do), and some rubber or sponge to absorb the vibrations if you care about noise.


----------



## richie_2010

I have some foam padding I could use to stop the air flow issues.

at the moment im using a haf x with a miss match set of fans, I have the stock fans on the side and front. noctuas on push pull in the top and akasa apache on the back exhausting from when the h60 was on there. ive got a theme of red black clear army/earthy brown and cream/beige

ive been looking at the 750d for a while along with the haf xb and fractal r3/4 and im more drawn to the 750d. I know the fans in the 750d are sp140s and I have 2 similar fans that came with my h100I

I thought that while changing my case I might as well change all the fans to one set so they all match

all the fans ive got now are in really good condition all beit have been extended and re-sleeved, so I could sell them to re-coupe some of the cost back along with the case.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> Any reason you are thinking of changing all your fans?
> 
> The corsair fans are not good on radiators as the air will escape through the spaces in the fan, the AP15s on the other hand are fine unless you run them at around 1100RPM, this is around the point the growl, you can get around this by using a shroud (a old fan will do), and some rubber or sponge to absorb the vibrations if you care about noise.


Nonsense. SP120s are delta AF-ish design (Just not entirely AFB as it's definitely lower performance than a AFB)

Are you suggesting a AFB fan performs badly on radiators?







It's the most efficient design in the world for radiators, look at and compare the static pressure!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *richie_2010*
> 
> I have some foam padding I could use to stop the air flow issues.
> 
> at the moment im using a haf x with a miss match set of fans, I have the stock fans on the side and front. noctuas on push pull in the top and akasa apache on the back exhausting from when the h60 was on there. ive got a theme of red black clear army/earthy brown and cream/beige
> 
> ive been looking at the 750d for a while along with the haf xb and fractal r3/4 and im more drawn to the 750d. I know the fans in the 750d are sp140s and I have 2 similar fans that came with my h100I
> 
> I thought that while changing my case I might as well change all the fans to one set so they all match
> 
> all the fans ive got now are in really good condition all beit have been extended and re-sleeved, so I could sell them to re-coupe some of the cost back along with the case.


AF140Ls* The crap and cheap edition. As if the normal AF140 isn't crap enough
You can go ahead and sell your HAF X. It's a undesirable case by all means but if you're really wanting a 750D you'd kindly drop the idea ... It's CRAP quality. Seriously you would feel it moving from the HAF X (which is kindly, actually built well)
If you want a good option and my frank opinion its the Switch 810. No i'm not wearing NZXT shoes or shaked hands with NZXT for a special deal


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Nonsense. SP120s are delta AF-ish design (Just not entirely AFB as it's definitely lower performance than a AFB)
> 
> Are you suggesting a AFB fan performs badly on radiators?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the most efficient design in the world for radiators, look at and compare the static pressure!


Are you talking about blade design? I was on about the frame of the fan, the gapes near the rubber bits on the fan let a little air escape, you need to has tape to stop that.


----------



## richie_2010

Ill have to look into these further. The 810 does look good.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> Are you talking about blade design? I was on about the frame of the fan, the gapes near the rubber bits on the fan let a little air escape, you need to has tape to stop that.


Don't worry about that. The ring does that for you


----------



## richie_2010

So would you guys say the scythe gts will be fine at full.speed and out of the gt 1850 and sp120 performance why would you choose one over the other.
My other query is would a 1a 12watt channel be ok to control 4 fans.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *richie_2010*
> 
> So would you guys say the scythe gts will be fine at full.speed and out of the gt 1850 and sp120 performance why would you choose one over the other.
> My other query is would a 1a 12watt channel be ok to control 4 fans.


GT anyday over a SP120 PE. 1) More efficient 2) More appealing 3) This one is just a preference ... at least it isn't overused.








Yep, you would be fine with even 10 AP-15s lol. I struggle to imagine how many AP15s i can run on my 30W (PER CHANNEL and ... IT HAS SIX!) fan controller


----------



## richie_2010

Would you say the gts will be really good on a radiator for static pressure and whatever case I get swap out yhe stock fans for them.

The fans I have now have all the wires going to the front but on my new case I wanted to split them up into their sections
For example 2 rear push pull 4 top push pull front and bottom/side.

Then for example use the electrical blocks for wiring the two rear fans then one cable going to the front.

Ill get a pic up of what I mean










take 3 pieces connect four fans to one side have one wire coming out the other to a controller


----------



## Lysergix710

So card1 runs around 80 when in game battlefield4 and card2 being about ten degrees lower. I dont know much about cooling and just have two front fans and a back one currently with a hyper212 cpu cooler. should i maybe buy another one for the bottom intake and maybe another exhaust ? or could it perhaps just be because its the card1 thats plugged in and perhaps used more, or even just run warmer ? its my sig rig


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lysergix710*
> 
> So card1 runs around 80 when in game battlefield4 and card2 being about ten degrees lower. I dont know much about cooling and just have two front fans and a back one currently with a hyper212 cpu cooler. should i maybe buy another one for the bottom intake and maybe another exhaust ? or could it perhaps just be because its the card1 thats plugged in and perhaps used more, or even just run warmer ? its my sig rig


Lack of air. Happens very typically with CF/SLI, you need a exhaust on the side panel and a stronger intake on the bottom

Are they non-reference cards? I'm not too surprised. Going reference for CF/SLI is a better idea
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *richie_2010*
> 
> Would you say the gts will be really good on a radiator for static pressure and whatever case I get swap out yhe stock fans for them.
> 
> The fans I have now have all the wires going to the front but on my new case I wanted to split them up into their sections
> For example 2 rear push pull 4 top push pull front and bottom/side.
> 
> Then for example use the electrical blocks for wiring the two rear fans then one cable going to the front.
> 
> Ill get a pic up of what I mean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> take 3 pieces connect four fans to one side have one wire coming out the other to a controller


Yep. Better than the SP120s if you don't want a delta

Uh, okay.


----------



## Lysergix710

Awesome i thought thats what i was going to hear. Yeh i wouldve got better cooling originally but i was only going to grab a single780ti or 780 and instead got these badboys a month or two old for $500 off a mate, cant complain. So im just going to pick up another intake for bottom and exhaust for side and it should be alot better ? cheers


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lysergix710*
> 
> Awesome i thought thats what i was going to hear. Yeh i wouldve got better cooling originally but i was only going to grab a single780ti or 780 and instead got these badboys a month or two old for $500 off a mate, cant complain. So im just going to pick up another intake for bottom and exhaust for side and it should be alot better ? cheers


That's hard to promise. Lower both GPUs it might but you'll have to live with the top GPU being 10C higher unless ya want to strap a fan right next to the GPU ... Ghetto-style









Even with 1 gap in between GPUs non-reference designs are just like that, sucking in the hot air of the one below it


----------



## Lysergix710

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> That's hard to promise. Lower both GPUs it might but you'll have to live with the top GPU being 10C higher unless ya want to strap a fan right next to the GPU ... Ghetto-style
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even with 1 gap in between GPUs non-reference designs are just like that, sucking in the hot air of the one below it


Yeh i was thinking that had the most part to do with it. Will it be a substantial decrease in temp ? Is around 80 bad for a card in general ?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lysergix710*
> 
> Yeh i was thinking that had the most part to do with it. Will it be a substantial decrease in temp ? Is around 80 bad for a card in general ?


80C is fine. Even with optimal airflow my lightning runs @ 80C full load on air and that's with a SINGLE card








Hell they'll even 85C no problem


----------



## CaseClocked

About the 750D dust filters, I got a reply from DEMCifilter:
Quote:


> Hi
> 
> Yes, these filters will be up on our site in this week.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Roxanne
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 4:40 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Corsair Obsidian 750D
> 
> Hello,
> Are you planning on releasing a kit of dust filters for 750D?
> And if yes, is there any ETA?
> 
> Thanks
Click to expand...


----------



## Lysergix710

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 80C is fine. Even with optimal airflow my lightning runs @ 80C full load on air and that's with a SINGLE card
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell they'll even 85C no problem


Thats good to hear, will still pick up anothercouple to be safe cheers man


----------



## DaveLT

OP updated.


----------



## Merkarov

Hey Dave!

Firstly thanks for posting this thread it's been very useful in helping me decide how I'm going to cool the PC I'm saving up for at the moment.
It will be my first build and will be mainly for gaming, but also audio/video editing and everyday web browsing.
I plan to do some overclocking to the CPU and GPU, but not having them OC'ed 24/7.

The case I'm going to use is a Fractal Define R4 (the windowed version). I know that it doesn't have the best airflow especially the front intakes due to the sound dampening door,
But silence is fairly important to me in this build, at least for when browsing/editing, not so much while gaming.

These are the components for the build:

Case: Fractal Define R4
CPU: i7-4770k
Cooler: Be Quiet! Dark Rock Pro 2
Mobo: Asus Maximus VI Hero
RAM: Mushkin Redline (2x4GB) DDR3-2133
Storage: 1TB WD Caviar Black HDD
128GB Samsung 840 Pro SSD
GPU: EVGA GTX 780 Ti Classified
PSU: Corsair AX760

Would you recommend this fan config? (Also please forgive my poor MS paint skills lol)



I plan to remove both HDD Bays and use the optical bay for my HDD, and mount my SSD on the on the other side of the case.

My reasoning on the Performance SP120's in the front is that all the CFM I can get is needed through that sound dampening door,
and that door in return will keep their noise from annoying me.

Then the SP120 Quiet on the bottom, as it is less restricted, needing less CFM, but is thus more susceptible to creating noise.

By the looks of it you would recommend the SP120 for the rear exhaust, would a Quiet edition suffice, or go for the performance?

I hope to keep the top mounts cover in the sound dampening panels unless high temps for my to open them.

Also I'm not sure how that AX760 PSU intakes/exhausts, what would placement would work best in this case?

And finally (sorry for such a long post just want to get this right) would these 120x38mm fans fit in the front/bottom of the R4 case?

If so which would you recommend?


----------



## DaveLT

Yep. I suggest SP120s for everything and SP120 QE for the rear fan. As for the front i'll leave it up to you. PE is suggested by me but it might be a bit too LOUD so probably use a fan controller and turn it up to 11 on a hot day

Let the AX760 intake from the bottom. As for 120x38 fans it will only fit in the bottom, no space definitely in the front but i don't know of any "quiet" 120x38 that's on the soft side, most of them that i know of are 2000rpm+ (Or thereabout, it's fine for a 25mm but on a 38mm thick fan with blades the entire width of the fan it's going to be louder than 25mm fans, more like a 2500rpm in terms of noise but deliver a 3000rpm 25mm equivalent fan static pressure in the same series)


----------



## doyll

Merkarov, I've done a few Define builds and might be able to help. I would suggest using 3 good 140mm PWM fans for intakes; 2x front and 1x bottom. Get a PWM splitter with molex / sata PSU power connector and run case fans on same PWM signal from CPU fan header on motherboard.. so all case fans run similar speed as CPU cooler fans. All idle around 650-750rpm (silent) and only speed up as needed to keep system cool. Even gaming they remain quiet.. GPU being the loudest component.

I also suggest raising the case so there is about 40mm bottom clearance. This way bottom fans have similar airflow area to fan airflow area. This increases airflow as well as keeping fans quiet.

A 140mm fan has about 143sq cm of flow area. PSU and bottom intake total to about 286sq cm. with a perimeter of 72cm. 72 x 4 = 288sq cm airflow area.

I've mostly used Thermalright TY-140 & TY-147 fans. But front fans need to be modified to 140x140mm square. (I use my power miter saw with a very good carbide trim blade)

TY-147 fans
http://www.amazon.co.uk/ThermalRight-TY-147-Thermalright-Fans/dp/B00A4QB4SW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386327325&sr=8-1&keywords=ty-147

Gelid makes a nice 4-way splitter. Two can be plugged together to run 7 fans... 3x intake, 1x exhaust & 2x CPU cooler.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gelid-Solutions-Case-Splitter-Cable/dp/B0067LWQ1C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1386327273&sr=8-4&keywords=pwm+splitter

Best splitter is Swiftech 8-way PWM Splitter Hub but harder to find

Here's a pics of R4 with TY-147 fans. TY-140 fan modified square.


Castor base for airflow clearance and ease of movement.


----------



## DaveLT

Yep, listen to him. I don't particularly have any idea of FD case airflow tuning.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*


That green stuff in the pictures on the expansion card slots... is this a kitchen scrubber thingy intended to act as a dust filter?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 
> 
> That green stuff in the pictures on the expansion card slots... is this a kitchen scrubber thingy intended to act as a dust filter?
Click to expand...









You are looking too closely.








Indeed it is. Even with 3x intakes the Arctic F120 TC fans on GPU were pulling air in through the open PCI slots.









Edit:
That R4 also has a GPU PWM splitter sending PWM signal to bottom fan for speed control.


----------



## doyll

GPU = VTX3D Radeon HD 7950 X-Edition V3
Cover removed w/2x Arctic F12 TC Case Fan
Was 70c now 50-60c, ultra settings, 60fps unless particularly detailed cut scenes

The Arctic F12 TC fans were 'temporary' and planned to order a couple good PWM fans to replace them with. They work so well they have become permanent.







.


----------



## [CyGnus]

First off all congrats on the great guide, this inspired me to do some modding (light one) my temps improved (less 4cº) here are some pics:


----------



## DaveLT

That's a nice mod. Not the fans i would have liked to use but whatever floats your boat








Thanks a lot by the way


----------



## [CyGnus]

I just used what i had no need for new fans when i got a box full of them


----------



## Mopar63

Using the info here i have really changed the way I build a PC. I no longer fill every fan hole. In my cases I usually just put the front intakes and bottom intakes if I can with a, AiO 120 unit on the rear. The positive airflow does an amazing job at keeping the system cool. The only case I have used a top fan in is the Mercury S3 where i have a single 140mm fan, as intake, blowing down onto the motherboard and video card.

For those interested in Demciflex filters. End an email to the company direct, if they do not have a filter already to fit your needs they will make one. If you case is not one they have the measurements on they would love for you to give them the measurements so they can have them in the future. They are good people and make a great product.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> Using the info here i have really changed the way I build a PC. I no longer fill every fan hole. In my cases I usually just put the front intakes and bottom intakes if I can with a, AiO 120 unit on the rear. The positive airflow does an amazing job at keeping the system cool. The only case I have used a top fan in is the Mercury S3 where i have a single 140mm fan, as intake, blowing down onto the motherboard and video card.
> 
> For those interested in Demciflex filters. End an email to the company direct, if they do not have a filter already to fit your needs they will make one. If you case is not one they have the measurements on they would love for you to give them the measurements so they can have them in the future. They are good people and make a great product.


Nice. Lesson to learn is not to need to fill every damn hole with a fan, it's just going to make your rig louder and you probably won't need it ... unless you have a very high heat output system









That's good advice there about the DeMCiFlex filters
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> I just used what i had no need for new fans when i got a box full of them


Or a case and 2 boxes full of them


----------



## Merkarov

Thank you Dave and Doyll!

I'll be sure to post my build in the forums once its underway


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Merkarov*
> 
> Thank you Dave and Doyll!
> 
> I'll be sure to post my build in the forums once its underway


Please let us know where you post it. I don't know about Dave but I don't frequent many sections of OCN.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Please let us know where you post it. I don't know about Dave but I don't frequent many sections of OCN.


Neither do I but I but i visit whatever catches my eye on the first page


----------



## bond32

Dave, I know you know your stuff. Also love the guide. I've been poking around and considering getting some 38mm or even larger fans hopefully push pull for my radiators - a ex480 and swiftech 360 xp. Both perform very well with high speed fans in push pull. Other than what you listed, any ideas? Size is of no issue for me, using the phanteks enthoo primo case and there is ample room for anything. I have a sunbeam controller too, capable of 35 watts or so per channel (6 channels).


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Dave, I know you know your stuff. Also love the guide. I've been poking around and considering getting some 38mm or even larger fans hopefully push pull for my radiators - a ex480 and swiftech 360 xp. Both perform very well with high speed fans in push pull. Other than what you listed, any ideas? Size is of no issue for me, using the phanteks enthoo primo case and there is ample room for anything. I have a sunbeam controller too, capable of 35 watts or so per channel (6 channels).


Really? Those radiators AFAIK have a mid-range tuning which means that they are better suited to low speed fans and are better performing than 30mm radiators at high speed. Just by a bit

Any other ideas? Hmm ... AFB1212SHE/AFC1212DE 1.6A


----------



## bond32

Martin's testing showed they are indeed best for low rpm fans, but at the high rpm's they also performed well.

Do you know about the feser tribework? There's some here in the marketplace, seems like one heck of an interesting fan... 55mm width

I'm leaning towards a more cost effective fan now I think. Would really like a 38mm, I'll check out the ones you mentioned.


----------



## doyll

The Feser Company (TFC) had the Triebwerk fans. They are NLA. Seemed to have many problems.

The TK-123 was ball bearing and needed to have spacers changed and glue the magnets to stop vibration and noise.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1344537/fixed-feser-triebwerk-tk-123-120x120x55mm-high-speed-fan/0_20

Think the TK-121 & TK-122 were sleeve bearing.


----------



## DaveLT

Every Triebwerk fans had it's problems
TK-123 was pulled out quickly but still in sale today just to clear stock. Not sure if these are the second revision
The TK123 is very very noisy for what it is
TK 121 and 122 had longevity issues and many of them were DOA
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Martin's testing showed they are indeed best for low rpm fans, but at the high rpm's they also performed well.
> 
> Do you know about the feser tribework? There's some here in the marketplace, seems like one heck of an interesting fan... 55mm width
> 
> I'm leaning towards a more cost effective fan now I think. Would really like a 38mm, I'll check out the ones you mentioned.


Sometimes a 38mm costs as much as the 25mm equivalent does even if both have airfoils (FFB series) and it's way more "cost-efficient" and "noise-efficient"
Just don't get the cheap 38mms like a ultra kaze. Those are garbage, have high motor noise and airflow specs are way off the box rating and indeed of any 38mm of it's noise level

Getting used fans is a gamble but some shops provide warranty. lol. More pricier than the other non-warrantized shops but it's worth it
Note that in the past some here think that 38mm are only more effective over a 25mm over 2000rpm. Nonsense.


----------



## DaveLT

Otherwise, I have recieved a Deepcool Lucifer, it has a GF140 in the box (well not quite the GF140 but the 31dB 81.33CFM 140mm fan from deepcool) and also a Deepcool Tesseract (Sounds scary but also at the same time sounds like a testarossa. Cool!) The tesseract is an interesting case with good stock cooling abilities.

When i say recieved i mean i picked them up from the distributor. Thanks Bryan of Tech Dynamic for providing the review units









Worthy of mention here is that the lucifer is branded as a passive heatsink and is offset on the CPU base like the thermalright machos ...


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Every Triebwerk fans had it's problems
> TK-123 was pulled out quickly but still in sale today just to clear stock. Not sure if these are the second revision
> The TK123 is very very noisy for what it is
> TK 121 and 122 had longevity issues and many of them were DOA
> Sometimes a 38mm costs as much as the 25mm equivalent does even if both have airfoils (FFB series) and it's way more "cost-efficient" and "noise-efficient"
> Just don't get the cheap 38mms like a ultra kaze. Those are garbage, have high motor noise and airflow specs are way off the box rating and indeed of any 38mm of it's noise level
> 
> Getting used fans is a gamble but some shops provide warranty. lol. More pricier than the other non-warrantized shops but it's worth it
> Note that in the past some here think that 38mm are only more effective over a 25mm over 2000rpm. Nonsense.


Awesome, you answered it. Not sure what to make of the >2000rpm, many of the rated specs are much better than 25mm albeit those specs can be skewed.

Do you have experience with the ap-29/ap-30's? Yate Loon makes a 38mm with decent specs, although I have only seen a low speed variant.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Awesome, you answered it. Not sure what to make of the >2000rpm, many of the rated specs are much better than 25mm albeit those specs can be skewed.
> 
> Do you have experience with the ap-29/ap-30's? Yate Loon makes a 38mm with decent specs, although I have only seen a low speed variant.


YL fans are overrated as usual though. So in reality it's a below-average fan

AP29? I don't. But my friend uses a AP-31. All I can say is, buy a delta AFB instead. It's got WAY better airflow characteristics on a radiator, besides it's cheaper :\
If it wasn't for the plain jane looks of a Delta (I think they look fearsome though. The way the blades are shaped makes me scared every single time i think of my finger going into it @ 2500rpm :\) I think he would have bought a delta
Great fans that look fantastic are from Deepcool. The UF120 is Blue blades on white and the SF120 (if you can find it) is blue on black. The sexiest fans when i come to think of it

Of course, if you want GT at cheap buy a swiftech helix.


----------



## CM MR HAF

How do you guys recommend powering the 12038s from Delta and Panaflo? They are too strong for motherboard connection.


----------



## sugarhell

Why corsair 600t airflow sucks so much for crossfire









Can you recommend me some good 120mm fans? I dont want to spend all my money for ap 15s just for the case


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CM MR HAF*
> 
> How do you guys recommend powering the 12038s from Delta and Panaflo? They are too strong for motherboard connection.


Not too strong as such but too powerful. Depends on which 12038 you bought, a AFC1212DE-D8794 will run off a header fine but a FFB1212EHE definitely won't. Or use a fan controller. Or Connect power to 12V and GND and then Tach and PWM to of course a 4pin
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Why corsair 600t airflow sucks so much for crossfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you recommend me some good 120mm fans? I dont want to spend all my money for ap 15s just for the case


Buy a new case then lol. Try to offload the 600T somewhere, better than attempting to fill every hole with GTs
I wouldn't begin a list on my guide as the cases which are pathetic at airflow (which is sometimes obvious dependent on design of course) because i don't have all the money in the world to buy every single case and try them out in fan configs and then i'll probably get blasted for being "Short-eyed" but 600t is definitely one of those that are seriously crappy in terms of airflow ... That restriction (which is worse than a FD Define R-case) and the fact that it comes with a crappier than crap 200mm (which are all crap) makes it a horrible case

How in the world do people claim corsair that they are the best when they keep overseeing such simple stuff. Don't get me started on the 750D ... Signs of being cheapskate is evident the moment i took it off the shelf. Don't even get me started with the "air-channel" which doesn't work and airflow is still as crappy as ever


----------



## sugarhell

I already offload it 4 times rofl. It cant go lower


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> I already offload it 4 times rofl. It cant go lower


:\ I still really suggest buying another case before stuffing it full of GTs though.


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Drop the AF140 exhaust and put a SP120 as a intake and filter it from the back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Case in point, i'd rather put SP120s up front. Notice how i don't recommend any 140mm fans? They all suck.


All 140mm fans suck? That's a rather bold statement that is actually way off base. There are plenty of great performing 140mm fans and larger even.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Drop the AF140 exhaust and put a SP120 as a intake and filter it from the back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Case in point, i'd rather put SP120s up front. Notice how i don't recommend any 140mm fans? They all suck.


All fans suck!

They all suck air in and and they all blow air out.


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> All fans suck!
> 
> They all suck air in and and they all blow air out.


In context of the meaning Einstein.


----------



## doyll

Some we must drag kicking and screaming into the 140mm world.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZippyPinhead*
> 
> All 140mm fans suck? That's a rather bold statement that is actually way off base. There are plenty of great performing 140mm fans and larger even.


FACT : There are only a few GOOD performing 140mm and they are from delta and san ace of course. Price? 50$. Noise? Very loud.


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> FACT : There are only a few GOOD performing 140mm and they are from delta and san ace of course. Price? 50$. Noise? Very loud.


You can add a few more 140mm fans to that list including the Silverstone's FHP141.







Noise? Not so loud.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZippyPinhead*
> 
> You can add a few more 140mm fans to that list including the Silverstone's FHP141.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noise? Not so loud.


You rating it based on mfr's specs? They're overrated you know?


----------



## [CyGnus]

The TY-140 its not bad for the price (6.5€)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> The TY-140 its not bad for the price (6.5€)


Has no static pressure rating therefore it's a pretty suspicious fan


----------



## [CyGnus]

Well it comes with the HR-02 Cooler that cooler is thick and i can feel the air on the other side so its not that bad though i replaced it with a TY150, somebody has to test it with WC and see results for the 140 model but the round frame may not please everybody


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> You rating it based on mfr's specs? They're overrated you know?


Really? ALL OVERRATED? That includes fans you seem to push specs on and recommend. Even if the "specs" are exaggerated, that 140mm Silverstone fan is a high performance fan with high static pressure and works fantastic. Id take it over some of the 120's your recommending. For $15 bucks a pop those Silverstone 140's are great performance fans and a great bang for the buck too.

You don't need to spend $25-50 on a noisy high rpm San Ace or Delta fan,to get a good performing fan, that is hogwash.

A couple good companies that make great performance fans(high cfm/high static pressure with moderate/reasonable rpms) includes Silverstone, Akasa, so does Corsair(SP series)in which you don't need to break the bank on, or have excessive noise either.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZippyPinhead*
> 
> Really? ALL OVERRATED? That includes fans you seem to push specs on and recommend. Even if the "specs" are exaggerated, that 140mm Silverstone fan is a high performance fan with high static pressure and works fantastic. Id take it over some of the 120's your recommending. For $15 bucks a pop those Silverstone 140's are great performance fans and a great bang for the buck too.
> 
> You don't need to spend $25-50 on a noisy high rpm San Ace or Delta fan,to get a good performing fan, that is hogwash.
> 
> A couple good companies that make great performance fans(high cfm/high static pressure with moderate/reasonable rpms) includes Silverstone, Akasa, so does Corsair(SP series)in which you don't need to break the bank on, or have excessive noise either.


Let me tell you this, it's been well-known to fan experts that industrial fans most likely EXCEED rated specs
Besides, NOT ALL 120mm deltas and san aces are noisy. Seriously. They perform better than every single fan out there, INCLUDING 140MM NON-INDUSTRIAL FANS.
And i have owned a FHP141 ... Quite disappointed with it, deepcool UF140 performs better noise to performance ratio with a heatsink


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Let me tell you this, it's been well-known to fan experts that industrial fans most likely EXCEED rated specs
> Besides, NOT ALL 120mm deltas and san aces are noisy. Seriously. They perform better than every single fan out there, INCLUDING 140MM NON-INDUSTRIAL FANS.
> And i have owned a FHP141 ... Quite disappointed with it, deepcool UF140 performs better noise to performance ratio with a heatsink


I am very familiar with Delta and San Ace fans........in fact years ago I used to install them on server arrays. Its a high performance fan......no question about it. But to get good static pressure and air flow you don't need them in a home user case.

And if your saying that a UF140 performs better than an FHP141, I highly question if you ever owned one. The UF140 is a low rpm fan with very low pressure. The FHP though pushes a good amount of air with good static pressure at a reasonable 2k. Its a great fan actually. I know firsthand, especialy when someone spends the time to shroud and seal the fan well.


----------



## doyll

You both have valid points.

There are many good 140mm fans out there. Most of us don't need the kind of performance Delta or San Ace have. Even on radiators.

Dave is correct. Delta and San Ace specs are accurate and most consumer fan specs are overrated.

TY-140 series fans have no static pressure spec but do perform very well.

Here are links to French fan reviews where their graph is interactive. Click on fan in list for graph to show. Click again to remove it from graph. Move cursor onto graph to see fan stats.
140mm fans
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/886-26/recapitulatif-db-a-vs-cfm.html
120mm fans
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/874-35/recapitulatif-db-a-vs-cfm.html


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You both have valid points.
> 
> There are many good 140mm fans out there. Most of us don't need the kind of performance Delta or San Ace have. Even on radiators.
> 
> Dave is correct. Delta and San Ace specs are accurate and most consumer fan specs are overrated.
> 
> TY-140 series fans have no static pressure spec but do perform very well.
> 
> Here are links to French fan reviews where their graph is interactive. Click on fan in list for graph to show. Click again to remove it from graph. Move cursor onto graph to see fan stats.
> 140mm fans
> http://www.hardware.fr/articles/886-26/recapitulatif-db-a-vs-cfm.html
> 120mm fans
> http://www.hardware.fr/articles/874-35/recapitulatif-db-a-vs-cfm.html


Im not doubting the performance of Delta or San Ace, Ive dealt with these fans for years. They are great COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL fans. Nor do I doubt their specs.........nor do I doubt that some consumer fan specs are exaggerated as well.

The problem is, those high powered Delta/San fans really have no purpose or a solid niche, especially at their price point. They are loud, due to getting their static performance from high rpms(And that's how you get good static pressure.....through high rpms in reality). I mean, that's the deal with them. Of course they are going to have really good cfm/static pressure when they spin 3-5k and more. What fan wouldn't in reality? It would have to have a really soft blade and a terrible design......its actually pretty hard to screw up in this regard. The problem with them is multifold:

A. They are relatively expensive.

B. They are loud

C. They don't add any real world cooling performance over a lot of the slower spinning consumer fans where its worthwhile in the grand scheme of things...........if your worried about every last temp degree, your not going to be air cooling with loud expensive fans. Your better off spending that same money for a water cooled setup.

I mean, I don't want to hear my case whine away while Im gaming, or doing benchmarks, or watching porn even.........I want the box to remain realitvely quiet overall.

What I would use them for though is in a nice custom push/pull config on a large radiator array. THis is where they can come in handy. THe high static pressure would I bet add some ability to extract heat faster from radiators. I just wouldn't be doing an array of them unless I had the room to build a sound reduction manifold........and that requires a good bit of room to do.









There are excellent 80/92/120/140/180mm consumer fans out on the market with good static pressure(whether they truly meet specs or not) at a much lower rpm rating that do a fantastic job........only rare cases where I can see using a high rpm fan like what Delta offers(small positive pressure itx case with limited room/mounts for fans with good sound deadening maybe as an example)........overall though.......they were designed with specific purpose and environments which in reality just don't fit into what this website's members do overall.


----------



## DaveLT

Want to know a fan that does a better job than almost every other fan out there? IF you're ignoring that line then you have been not looking
Delta AFB series and San Ace 9S series


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Want to know a fan that does a better job than almost every other fan out there? IF you're ignoring that line then you have been not looking
> Delta AFB series and San Ace 9S series


Kind of depends on the situation and needs in terms of what size fan. Not everyone uses 120mm fans. For me I run a 180mm intake, and 120mm exhaust.

The Delta AFB series 120mm still spins high, overall they are loud, good series but Id actually take an Akasa thermal or viper fan over it for most needs, especially if we are looking at the 25mm thick units..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZippyPinhead*
> 
> Kind of depends on the situation and needs in terms of what size fan. Not everyone uses 120mm fans. For me I run a 180mm intake, and 120mm exhaust.
> 
> The Delta AFB series 120mm still spins high, overall they are loud, good series but Id actually take an Akasa thermal or viper fan over it for most needs, especially if we are looking at the 25mm thick units..


:facepalm:
High? It's hardly loud at all. Akasa fans are highly highly overrated.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ZippyPinhead*
> 
> Kind of depends on the situation and needs in terms of what size fan. Not everyone uses 120mm fans. For me I run a 180mm intake, and 120mm exhaust.
> 
> The Delta AFB series 120mm still spins high, overall they are loud, good series but Id actually take an Akasa thermal or viper fan over it for most needs, especially if we are looking at the 25mm thick units..
> 
> 
> 
> :facepalm:
> High? It's hardly loud at all. Akasa fans are highly highly overrated.
Click to expand...

I feel you are too sure about your opinions!

I can't use any of those strong fans. I need to run fans very slow (less than 600 RPM) to not slowly go crazy when trying to work on stuff in a quiet room (without music etc.). At that point, any ticking or other annoying noise of fans will be louder than the noise from air moving, so a lot of fans get annoying for me that are normally fine at 1000+ RPM. Ball bearing sounds slightly annoying to me.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> I feel you are too sure about your opinions!
> 
> I can't use any of those strong fans. I need to run fans very slow (less than 600 RPM) to not slowly go crazy when trying to work on stuff in a quiet room (without music etc.). At that point, any ticking or other annoying noise of fans will be louder than the noise from air moving, so a lot of fans get annoying for me that are normally fine at 1000+ RPM. Ball bearing sounds slightly annoying to me.


If you want a 600rpm fan a AFB PWM fan will run @ 550rpm over PWM








Non-PWM ones will run on voltage without ticking and the AFBs will start off at 600rpm easily depending on model but most likely L and M model
Eh ... Single ball bearing is pretty annoying but dual ball bearings have a sweet overtone. Hydro "modded sleeve" fans have a nasty overtone that i can hear


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> :facepalm:
> High? It's hardly loud at all. Akasa fans are highly highly overrated.


Akasa fans are highly overrated? Really? Please show some review test stats on the viper/thermal 120mmx25mm fans that shows that. They use a good blade, spin at a reasonable rpm rate and are relatively quiet. For me works as a great exhaust fan. Delta's competing 120x25mm AFB fan is not as good, it pushes a bit less air and is significantly louder. Your blanket statements are highly questionable.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZippyPinhead*
> 
> Akasa fans are highly overrated? Really? Please show some review test stats on the viper/thermal 120mmx25mm fans that shows that. They use a good blade, spin at a reasonable rpm rate and are relatively quiet. For me works as a great exhaust fan. Delta's competing 120x25mm AFB fan is not as good, it pushes a bit less air and is significantly louder. Your blanket statements are highly questionable.


Without taking into constant restraints like ... A FILTER
Your blanket statements are even more questionable


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Without taking into constant restraints like ... A FILTER
> Your blanket statements are even more questionable


A filter? What does a filter have to do with anything in this specific part of the debate?

Where is that test data bro?









Delta makes fine purpose specific fans, but your blanket statements made really have no merit or any proof backing up a variety of differenct scenarios, implementations and outright performance. Simple as that.

If I am building up a large high duty server, in an environment where noise is not an issue, I'll gladly use or recommend them. But in most cases here on this forum, many of their models really have no legit niche or advantages in the big picture.


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZippyPinhead*
> 
> A filter? What does a filter have to do with anything in this specific part of the debate?
> 
> Where is that test data bro?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta makes fine purpose specific fans, but your blanket statements made really have no merit or any proof backing up a variety of differenct scenarios, implementations and outright performance. Simple as that.
> 
> If I am building up a large high duty server, in an environment where noise is not an issue, I'll gladly use or recommend them. But in most cases here on this forum, many of their models really have no legit niche or advantages in the big picture.


The point is that even though these fans are loud, if you use a controller to drop them down to around 1000-1500 rpm they outperform most fans that are much more expensive. Plus when you consider buying 8+ fans, just for one rad, the cheaper fan starts to look a lot better...


----------



## DaveLT

I'll leave your own opinions to yourselves, self-occluding who thinks that PC fans are way better than industrial fans








Seriously, never heard of restriction? Even a honeycomb is a restriction. If you really disagree with me that 120mm deltas are infinitely better than 140mm non-industrial fans get out. Just get out of here


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'll leave your own opinions to yourselves, self-occluding who thinks that PC fans are way better than industrial fans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, never heard of restriction? Even a honeycomb is a restriction. If you really disagree with me that 120mm deltas are infinitely better than 140mm non-industrial fans get out. Just get out of here


For the application at hand, most times Delta's are a waste of money. Tell me exactly how anyone will benefit from paying more for a Delta fan?

I have probably been installing Delta fans for years, well before you had even known that the company existed.

In the consumer market most of their fans really have little use or value. There are plenty of good competing consumer fans that will do the job just as good given a specific application.

Also I gave specifics and asked you to provide information on how a specific series of fans is overrated. You have not given any substantial answer in return. In other words, your just tossing out an opinion based on 0 merit.


----------



## ZippyPinhead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> The point is that even though these fans are loud, if you use a controller to drop them down to around 1000-1500 rpm they outperform most fans that are much more expensive. Plus when you consider buying 8+ fans, just for one rad, the cheaper fan starts to look a lot better...


See the problem is that's not necessarily true at all. Taking a high rpm fan and dropping it down into a lower rpm range bracket, basically means its performance is going to drop in kind. I'd love to see some empirical data that supports this fact too that Delta fans will outperform consistently and in a significant fashion a consumer fan at the same lower speeds where it justifies the extra expense and shows actual significant temp differences of the hardware its helping to cool.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZippyPinhead*
> 
> A. reported for the name calling. Its childish, and brings into question your maturity level
> 
> B. Guidance is fine, but not all of it is good guidance in this thread, much of it is misleading to say the least. Some of it is opinion without basis, which is why
> 
> C. I argue some points.
> 
> D. It sure doesn't help that you have contradicted your "recommendations" on the first page of this thread many times over since you started it.


----------



## doyll

Don't try to confuse him with facts.








His mind's made up.


----------



## inVain

here's something....
I'm quite lazy lately, so no prime stress or whatsoever, just playing FM13 for a few match



I'm currently using a 9SG1212P1G03 on a Venoumous-X,
keep the fan around 700rpm to keep my cpu temp under 50.

if any PC consumer fan can do this job while keep em' spinning around 800rpm, I'll be glad to swap my fan out.
and I give you a 100rpm headroom here


----------



## DaveLT

My friend's single 9G1212P4E03 on a TRUE black handles a 3570k @ 4.4GHz @ 50C while on 600rpm. Yes, 600rpm. In a country with 31C ambients


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> My friend's single 9G1212P4E03 on a TRUE black handles a 3570k @ 4.4GHz @ 50C while on 600rpm. Yes, 600rpm. In a country with 31C ambients


that's tempting,
maybe I'll switch to a TRUE


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> that's tempting,
> maybe I'll switch to a TRUE


The Ven X is better though, it's just that for some reason he has a much better than average chip. That's undelidded as well


----------



## inVain

Dave, have you ever dealt with the Yateloons?
I was wondering if their frame were made of plastic or by something else?

Thanks to you a friend of mine at my local forum, now I've been a fan of fan shroud as well









Been made a couple of shroud out of super el cheapo clear plastic fans frame
they did their job well to dampen the noise of the intake fans,
but somehow I feel dissatisfied by their material (what can I do they dirt cheap already







)

being mentally unprepared to rip of the Deltas, now I'm looking for other options.
so if the Yates aren't made of plastic,
I'll be happy to tear them apart


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> Dave, have you ever dealt with the Yateloons?
> I was wondering if their frame were made of plastic or by something else?
> 
> Thanks to you a friend of mine at my local forum, now I've been a fan of fan shroud as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been made a couple of shroud out of super el cheapo clear plastic fans frame
> they did their job well to dampen the noise of the intake fans,
> but somehow I feel dissatisfied by their material (what can I do they dirt cheap already
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> being mentally unprepared to rip of the Deltas, now I'm looking for other options.
> so if the Yates aren't made of plastic,
> I'll be happy to tear them apart


Cheap thin ABS always


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Cheap thin ABS always











better buy a bag of lego then


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> better buy a bag of lego then


LOL. That's ABS too







Just buy a used delta for very very cheap (doesn't matter if it's broken or not) and well, cut the frame up


----------



## Jagerking666

thx for all the great info!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jagerking666*
> 
> thx for all the great info!


I thank you for thanking my effort








- Broken Internet All Day so you can imagine my pain


----------



## Hardballer45

I will have to look into delta fans when I build my 8 core rig but for now I just ordered some CM sickleflow 120 to replace my Antec 900 fans that are slowing dying.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hardballer45*
> 
> I will have to look into delta fans when I build my 8 core rig but for now I just ordered some CM sickleflow 120 to replace my Antec 900 fans that are slowing dying.


Whatever floats your boat


----------



## Commiekaze

@DaveLT

Hello Dave,

I have been using the same case and heatsink for many years and are still both running without a problem. I have the CoolerMaster HAF 932 (http://www.coolermaster.com/case/full-tower-haf-series/haf-932/) and the CoolerMaster V8 (http://www.coolermaster.com/cooling/v-series/v8/). Both are pretty old. My CPU has no issues with heat thus far even though the cooler is a few years old now, but my GPU (and soon to be 2 GPUs) run hotter than I would like. My current CPU is "temporary: but I will be replaced and overlocked (i5 4670k) shortly. I have a single GTX 780 and a second one on the way.

I would prefer not to watercool anything. I do overclock but not to extreme extents. The HAF 932 I have has all the original 230mm fans in it. Would you recommend I replace these fans and if so, what with? In addition, should I keep my current V8 CPU cooler or replace that as well? I did have a first-gen i5 overclocked on this fan for years and it never had problems.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Commiekaze*
> 
> @DaveLT
> 
> Hello Dave,
> 
> I have been using the same case and heatsink for many years and are still both running without a problem. I have the CoolerMaster HAF 932 (http://www.coolermaster.com/case/full-tower-haf-series/haf-932/) and the CoolerMaster V8 (http://www.coolermaster.com/cooling/v-series/v8/). Both are pretty old. My CPU has no issues with heat thus far even though the cooler is a few years old now, but my GPU (and soon to be 2 GPUs) run hotter than I would like. My current CPU is "temporary: but I will be replaced and overlocked (i5 4670k) shortly. I have a single GTX 780 and a second one on the way.
> 
> I would prefer not to watercool anything. I do overclock but not to extreme extents. The HAF 932 I have has all the original 230mm fans in it. Would you recommend I replace these fans and if so, what with? In addition, should I keep my current V8 CPU cooler or replace that as well? I did have a first-gen i5 overclocked on this fan for years and it never had problems.


Replace your heatsink once your 4670k comes in. The V8 is a underperforming noisy heatsink (Even though I would not say it for official reasons but I have to be fair) and I would suggest a AIO like a CM Nepton 140.

I suggest maybe buying Deepcool UF120s (FrozenCPU stocks them cheaper I think) and modding the front a bit to accommodate 2 120s or maybe try 4 120s







A 120mm in the 5-1/4" bays. A good alternative is to buy cheap Delta PWM AFBs and get a fan controller if you don't have enough PWM channels

For the side panel fan 2 of 140mm (deepcool UF140/GF140 fans is a good idea) You may have to put a fan in intake for the VRMs but i suggest don't bother. Leaving the 230mm is fine I think if you aren't tool critical about CPU/VRM temps
Look for the black UF fans as those are cheaper and newer

Follow my guide for GPU fan orientation. If you're using a intake you should decide between UF120 or UF140 with a filter


----------



## Art Vanelay

I've had GPUs that exhausted into the case that benefited from a side intake much more than a side exhaust. I don't think a side exhaust is always better than an intake, and it probably depends on the case and configuration.


----------



## Commiekaze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Replace your heatsink once your 4670k comes in. The V8 is a underperforming noisy heatsink (Even though I would not say it for official reasons but I have to be fair) and I would suggest a AIO like a CM Nepton 140.
> 
> I suggest maybe buying Deepcool UF120s (FrozenCPU stocks them cheaper I think) and modding the front a bit to accommodate 2 120s or maybe try 4 120s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 120mm in the 5-1/4" bays. A good alternative is to buy cheap Delta PWM AFBs and get a fan controller if you don't have enough PWM channels
> 
> For the side panel fan 2 of 140mm (deepcool UF140/GF140 fans is a good idea) You may have to put a fan in intake for the VRMs but i suggest don't bother. Leaving the 230mm is fine I think if you aren't tool critical about CPU/VRM temps
> Look for the black UF fans as those are cheaper and newer
> 
> Follow my guide for GPU fan orientation. If you're using a intake you should decide between UF120 or UF140 with a filter


Thank you! Im in Canada so Canada Computers here has Deepcool products and they are quite good with prices. I didnt think it would be possible to have 4 120s in that case but I will definitely look into atleast 2 for the front and the CM Nepton or something like it. The nepton is kind of like a watercooler though, isnt it? As for the side panel, is there any "easy" way to attach 2 140s to it? Brackets or that sort of thing? Either way, I will focus on the front, top (which also has 1 230 in it, I guess Ill just put 2 120s in there too), and the heatsink for the moment. Im not planning to overclock my 780s too far (infact, the solo right now is running stock), so all this will hopefully keep me safe and stable. Thanks for your help! Your original post is great as well!

My only request/suggestion I guess for the original guide would be to have definitions for some of your terminology (PWM, AFB, AIO, VRM, etc). It may be common knowledge or I may have missed the definitions somewhere but Im new to all this so I had a hard time figuring it out. ^_^ Cheers!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Commiekaze*
> 
> Thank you! Im in Canada so Canada Computers here has Deepcool products and they are quite good with prices. I didnt think it would be possible to have 4 120s in that case but I will definitely look into atleast 2 for the front and the CM Nepton or something like it. The nepton is kind of like a watercooler though, isnt it? As for the side panel, is there any "easy" way to attach 2 140s to it? Brackets or that sort of thing? Either way, I will focus on the front, top (which also has 1 230 in it, I guess Ill just put 2 120s in there too), and the heatsink for the moment. Im not planning to overclock my 780s too far (infact, the solo right now is running stock), so all this will hopefully keep me safe and stable. Thanks for your help! Your original post is great as well!
> 
> My only request/suggestion I guess for the original guide would be to have definitions for some of your terminology (PWM, AFB, AIO, VRM, etc). It may be common knowledge or I may have missed the definitions somewhere but Im new to all this so I had a hard time figuring it out. ^_^ Cheers!


Delta AFB = Delta AFB1212* (* as in speed rating) PWM = Pulse-width-modulation for fans to be controlled without incident through the motherboard. Requires a fourth pin on the motherboard and the fan wire (commonly blue or gray on the Deepcool fans but for the UFs and GFs it's all PWM anyway)

Nepton ... Just think of it as a "AIR COOLER" It's technically one since you don't have to bother with filling it up or anything like that

4 120s is possible with a AIO on the side panel but don't do it. Cut the mesh a little bit to fit dual 140s on the side panel. If yours doesn't have a window.
Don't focus on the top. It's not very useful but instead concentrate on the front top which is the 5-1/4" inch bay
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Art Vanelay*
> 
> I've had GPUs that exhausted into the case that benefited from a side intake much more than a side exhaust. I don't think a side exhaust is always better than an intake, and it probably depends on the case and configuration.


That's because your front intake is lacking.
In a Deepcool Tesserac the stock 1000rpm front fan weren't any useful for the GPU cooling and a side intake actually helped but then a front WFB1212M with a side exhaust improved my temps by a factor-of-ten compared to side intake and WFB1212M

Granted it's still hot in here but at least it's much cooler. I had to drop the clocks to use the stock front fan configuration


----------



## Commiekaze

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Delta AFB = Delta AFB1212* (* as in speed rating) PWM = Pulse-width-modulation for fans to be controlled without incident through the motherboard. Requires a fourth pin on the motherboard and the fan wire (commonly blue or gray on the Deepcool fans but for the UFs and GFs it's all PWM anyway)
> 
> Nepton ... Just think of it as a "AIR COOLER" It's technically one since you don't have to bother with filling it up or anything like that
> 
> 4 120s is possible with a AIO on the side panel but don't do it. Cut the mesh a little bit to fit dual 140s on the side panel. If yours doesn't have a window.
> Don't focus on the top. It's not very useful but instead concentrate on the front top which is the 5-1/4" inch bay


Sweet, makes sense. Thanks for the help!


----------



## killeraxemannic

Are there any 120mm delta fans that push a ton of air when wide open but quiet down to nearly silent when turned down on a fan controller? I am looking for some 120mm fans for my new rig that can absolutely rip when I want them to when I am mining or gaming with my rig but quiet down when my rig is on but not doing anything or just surfing the web.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *killeraxemannic*
> 
> Are there any 120mm delta fans that push a ton of air when wide open but quiet down to nearly silent when turned down on a fan controller? I am looking for some 120mm fans for my new rig that can absolutely rip when I want them to when I am mining or gaming with my rig but quiet down when my rig is on but not doing anything or just surfing the web.


You might want a used 12038 AFB1212HE


----------



## killeraxemannic

What do you think of the AFC1212DE? How's their ability to be turned down by a fan controller? Looks like they are rated a t 140CFM. I found some for 5 bucks apiece on ebay. Couldn't pass them up a that price. I think I am going to have to put new connectors on them but I am not sure where to get them.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *killeraxemannic*
> 
> What do you think of the AFC1212DE? How's their ability to be turned down by a fan controller? Looks like they are rated a t 140CFM. I found some for 5 bucks apiece on ebay. Couldn't pass them up a that price. I think I am going to have to put new connectors on them but I am not sure where to get them.


They (1.6A) started somewhere at the very bottom of my fan controller - Be prepared to crimp them though oh and don't attempt to use them on fan controllers, at the very bottom (5V) it still moved pretty brisk and a ****load of air coming out of it

140CFM? They're about 160CFM and create about 53dB of noise at full chat


----------



## killeraxemannic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They (1.6A) started somewhere at the very bottom of my fan controller - Be prepared to crimp them though oh and don't attempt to use them on fan controllers, at the very bottom (5V) it still moved pretty brisk and a ****load of air coming out of it
> 
> 140CFM? They're about 160CFM and create about 53dB of noise at full chat


How does Dell get them to be completely silent then? In the ebay add it says they are out of a Dell Optiplex GX320 or GX520. I had a GX520 at work for a few years and it was almost completely silent.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *killeraxemannic*
> 
> How does Dell get them to be completely silent then? In the ebay add it says they are out of a Dell Optiplex GX320 or GX520. I had a GX520 at work for a few years and it was almost completely silent.


PWM mate.


----------



## DaveLT

If you want a good cheap fan buy a CM Jetflo. They're all PWM and comes with many accessories. Rubber mounting frame and machine threaded screws.
LED options are Blue Red and White you also have non-LED options
High airflow output with actually low noise. The sort of "howling" people report is turbulence because it crosses into the 90CFM territory. A high airflow fan is definitely like that. With the same restriction level as a SP120 it gets about 70CFM while SP120 falls to 50CFM


----------



## Devildog8791

I have read through this thread and with some good points by @doyll in this thread and this post, I have learned that I know nothing about fan management.

Now I come to @DaveLT with advice on what fans to use in my case. I was looking at Noctuas because they had a lot of good reviews, but after reading this thread, I am second guessing that choice. I am not worried about LED lighting and asthetics. I am not trying to win a beauty pageant either. I just want the best airflow to protect my ongoing investment.

I am using a Corsair Carbide Air 540 case. I want to use three 120mm fans in the front, a Corsair h100i AIO cooler up top with four 120mm fans in a push/pull configuration and one 120 mm fan in the back (because DaveLT suggested to not use a 140mm).

Here is a picture of the proposed setup:



I was thinking that the front could be intakes and the top and rear could be exhaust, but this is where I am coming in for advice.

Edit: In further review, I think I am going to just run the h100i in a pull configuration and still have it in an exhaust mode.


----------



## DaveLT

Hey welcome to this thread!
540? Oh. Go ahead and use Jetflo 120s. They're pretty damn good and you get LED options

If you're using top as exhaust then use rear as intake.


----------



## Devildog8791

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Hey welcome to this thread!
> 540? Oh. Go ahead and use Jetflo 120s. They're pretty damn good and you get LED options
> 
> If you're using top as exhaust then use rear as intake.


Sounds good. I'll check out the Jetflo 120s.

Would you recommend using the top as exhaust? Corsair recommends to use it as an intake in a pull configuration. I'd like to know how you would do it if it was your build.

Also, if I'm using the PWM header, do I need to even mess with the silent mode adapters?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Devildog8791*
> 
> Sounds good. I'll check out the Jetflo 120s.
> 
> Would you recommend using the top as exhaust? Corsair recommends to use it as an intake in a pull configuration. I'd like to know how you would do it if it was your build.
> 
> Also, if I'm using the PWM header, do I need to even mess with the silent mode adapters?


For a AIO I really wouldn't use it as an intake, you would need 2 extra filters and you already have 3 front intakes (but they're not symmetrical due to having to overcome a mesh and a filter)

On my rig it's 2x360s. At first it was all intake







then i switched to top intake and bottom exhaust just because







(And also because I have 1 front intake)


----------



## Devildog8791

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> For a AIO I really wouldn't use it as an intake, you would need 2 extra filters and you already have 3 front intakes (but they're not symmetrical due to having to overcome a mesh and a filter)
> 
> On my rig it's 2x360s. At first it was all intake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then i switched to top intake and bottom exhaust just because
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (And also because I have 1 front intake)


Okay, I'll just do like you said and use the front and rear as intakes and the top as exhaust.

What about the use of the silent adapters? Do I even need to use them with PWM?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Devildog8791*
> 
> Okay, I'll just do like you said and use the front and rear as intakes and the top as exhaust.
> 
> What about the use of the silent adapters? Do I even need to use them with PWM?


Put a filter on the back







Something like a metal mesh filter. The fine ones like silverstone or demciflex (which is expensive)
Nope. It's a bad idea to use silent adapters with PWM as they might tick and also it's pointless since PWM goes to minimum rotational (torque-tional) speed (At least to maintain rotation which is a bit hard for higher speed fans so 500rpm is probably about the minimum) of the fan anyway

I'll test my jetflo later so I can get back to you







I forgot the minimum speed for this one as I most likely have to redo my testing. I think my testing method is a bit wrong that very time and also I tweaked my setup a bit to give me a bit more accuracy

Filters :
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999249 FF123B - Magnetic lowest restriction possible
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999234 Magnetic FF122 cheaper but quite a bit more restriction.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA32C1A21275 5pcs Aluminum Filters - These are pretty good.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA32C1A21276 Double of above. You save a bit


----------



## Tyler Dalton

I'm guessing your going to recommend me remove my top front exhaust then.


I actually keep going back and forth between the 2 exhausts on the top at a low RPM vs 1 exhaust on the top at a higher RPM. I actually took the second exhaust out after I took that picture and I just have that slot blank with a dust filter right now. I did some testing and the temps seem to be within a 1 degree margin of error either or. BTW, what you can't see in that pic is 2 AP-15's for intake behind the front door.


----------



## DaveLT

You see, I know the front top intake spot is pointless (You don't need filters for the blank slot if it's properly setup) . But also please flip the the rearwards top fan.

That said though what made you buy those diarrhea edition fans?


----------



## Tyler Dalton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> You see, I know the front top intake spot is pointless (You don't need filters for the blank slot if it's properly setup) . But also please flip the the rearwards top fan.
> 
> That said though what made you buy those diarrhea edition fans?


Well I have a filter there really more to stop anything from falling into there more than just dust. Also that CPU fan sucks a lot of air and it will suck air through that open spot. I actually tried having the other top fan as intake as well and got worse temps.

As for the Noctua's, well... I really like the CPU fan (NF-A15), the others (NF-P12 and NF-S12A) are sorta meh and probably wouldn't buy them again. I will say the Noctua fans are much better than the Corsair fans I tried first. I've actually been on the look for a fan to replace my NF-P12 on the top purely due to the color but I haven't been happy with anything I've tried. This case is really sensitive to vibrations on the top so many of the fans are no goes just due to vibrations. I had bought a AP-14 Gentle Typhoon to go up there but I ended up having to send it back as the bearing was damaged in shipping. I like the Be Quiet Silent Wings but the cheapest I've seen for one of those is like $25 BEFORE shipping.

EDIT: One thing I forgot to add. I originally bought the 2 NF-P12's for the front intake where they would be hidden. I wasn't happy with them and it was too late to send them back so I replaced them with Gentle Typhoon's. Since I had them I figured I might as well see where I could use them and they worked better for the top than the BitFenix ones I had up there previously. As for why I later bought the NF-S12A for the rear exhaust? No clue.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tyler Dalton*
> 
> Well I have a filter there really more to stop anything from falling into there more than just dust. Also that CPU fan sucks a lot of air and it will suck air through that open spot. I actually tried having the other top fan as intake as well and got worse temps.
> 
> As for the Noctua's, well... I really like the CPU fan (NF-A15), the others (NF-P12 and NF-S12A) are sorta meh and probably wouldn't buy them again. I will say the Noctua fans are much better than the Corsair fans I tried first. I've actually been on the look for a fan to replace my NF-P12 on the top purely due to the color but I haven't been happy with anything I've tried. This case is really sensitive to vibrations on the top so many of the fans are no goes just due to vibrations. I had bought a AP-14 Gentle Typhoon to go up there but I ended up having to send it back as the bearing was damaged in shipping. I like the Be Quiet Silent Wings but the cheapest I've seen for one of those is like $25 BEFORE shipping.
> 
> EDIT: One thing I forgot to add. I originally bought the 2 NF-P12's for the front intake where they would be hidden. I wasn't happy with them and it was too late to send them back so I replaced them with Gentle Typhoon's. Since I had them I figured I might as well see where I could use them and they worked better for the top than the BitFenix ones I had up there previously. As for why I later bought the NF-S12A for the rear exhaust? No clue.


I see. But that means you have NEGATIVE pressure actually.

If you're looking for a 140mm fan replacement check out Deepcool GF140/UF140
And for a P12 replacement check out coolermaster's jetflo 120. rubber mounts








Oh damn. I heard of many GTs broken bearings due to shipping. Be Quiet fans are also meh.

I see no wonder. Due to my thread any attempts to sell Noctua fans might not fall through








Deepcool UF120 (black version, the older white is pricier) works well as a exhaust fan actually.


----------



## DaveLT

I just found out the Jetflo 120 is magnetic. Holy cow!


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I just found out the Jetflo 120 is magnetic. Holy cow!


did you mean, that they were inducing magnetic field nearby?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> did you mean, that they were inducing magnetic field nearby?


Nah. The rubber frame has magnets in them I think







If any the real fans that turn into magnets are our highest speed deltas


----------



## doyll

Indeed.


----------



## Devildog8791

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Put a filter on the back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something like a metal mesh filter. The fine ones like silverstone or demciflex (which is expensive)
> Nope. It's a bad idea to use silent adapters with PWM as they might tick and also it's pointless since PWM goes to minimum rotational (torque-tional) speed (At least to maintain rotation which is a bit hard for higher speed fans so 500rpm is probably about the minimum) of the fan anyway
> 
> I'll test my jetflo later so I can get back to you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot the minimum speed for this one as I most likely have to redo my testing. I think my testing method is a bit wrong that very time and also I tweaked my setup a bit to give me a bit more accuracy
> 
> Filters :
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999249 FF123B - Magnetic lowest restriction possible
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999234 Magnetic FF122 cheaper but quite a bit more restriction.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA32C1A21275 5pcs Aluminum Filters - These are pretty good.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA32C1A21276 Double of above. You save a bit


I found this page on DEMCiflex's site. I might just go for the whole set to try and keep the dust bunnies from multiplying like...well, bunnies.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Devildog8791*
> 
> I found this page on DEMCiflex's site. I might just go for the whole set to try and keep the dust bunnies from multiplying like...well, bunnies.


Good


----------



## bogie46

Hello Dave, whether the configuration is correct


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bogie46*
> 
> Hello Dave, whether the configuration is correct


Flip the top exhaust to intake and you're golden.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *bogie46*
> 
> Hello Dave, whether the configuration is correct
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flip the top exhaust to intake and you're golden.
Click to expand...

Are you serious Dave?
Doing that to back top fan will be forcing the cooler exhaust back down into case... as well as the intake air being sucked right back out the back exhaust and very possibly back into top rear intake.

Bogie46, what do you have for GPU?
And bottom back is the intake into PSU exhausting out the lower back of case.


----------



## bogie46

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Are you serious Dave?
> Doing that to back top fan will be forcing the cooler exhaust back down into case... as well as the intake air being sucked right back out the back exhaust and very possibly back into top rear intake.
> 
> Bogie46, what do you have for GPU?
> And bottom back is the intake into PSU exhausting out the lower back of case.


What fan? I have GT 1850 rpm only in my case

Dave, only one fan for exaust is correct?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Are you serious Dave?
> Doing that to back top fan will be forcing the cooler exhaust back down into case... as well as the intake air being sucked right back out the back exhaust and very possibly back into top rear intake.
> 
> Bogie46, what do you have for GPU?
> And bottom back is the intake into PSU exhausting out the lower back of case.


I'm being serious. If you look at the layout the top intake will be sucking back what the rear intake is doing. Unless he flips the rear fan and turns both top fans to exhaust. Actually about that we're not talking about 100CFM or if the fans are even right next to each other so it's fine to do it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bogie46*
> 
> What fan? I have GT 1850 rpm only in my case
> 
> Dave, only one fan for exaust is correct?


It's fine. Actually you can drop the top intake and go front intake then you can use the top fan as exhaust but I've already stated that using one rear top as a intake improves VRM temps.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bogie46*
> 
> [
> What fan? I have GT 1850 rpm only in my case


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'm being serious. If you look at the layout the top intake will be sucking back what the rear intake is doing. Unless he flips the rear fan and turns both top fans to exhaust. Actually about that we're not talking about 100CFM or if the fans are even right next to each other so it's fine to do it.


Than I must be looking at something wrong.








The layout I see has:

2x front intake
1x bottom intake coming from where PSU mounts
1x top intake in about the middle of top
1x top exhaust at bavk of top
1x back exhaust
Dave, you said to flip top exhaust to intake. Only top exhaust is at the back of the top.. and it would blow air right down on the exhaust from cooler.








What rear intake?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Than I must be looking at something wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The layout I see has:
> 
> 2x front intake
> 1x bottom intake coming from where PSU mounts
> 1x top intake in about the middle of top
> 1x top exhaust at bavk of top
> 1x back exhaust


I think he probably got the bottom intake wrong. anyway if he's not using HDD cages he won't need that one.
Um, the top exhaust. It exhausts AND then the fan very next to it intakes ... How Brilliant is that.
Yeah but I ran a 1 exhaust 2 intake setup for a long time and dust still collected where the GPU is.


----------



## THEStorm

Hey guys, looking for a little bit of advice for airflow on my case. My case is the Aerocool DS which is fairly new so it doesn't have a lot of people using it at the moment. I have already replaced the stock case fans as they were much more focused on silence and not airflow. My current cooling setup is as follows;

*Intake:*
200mm Coolermaster Megaflow (front)(non filtered at the moment)
120mm Corsair SP120 PE PWM x4 (Push/Pull on H100i)(top)(filtered)

*Exhaust:*
140mm Corsair AF140 (rear)

My GPU is a reference 780 so it is a blower style card. And power supply is set up the only logical way for the case (bottom intake).

All fans are run PWM off my motherboard as I can set custom profiles through the utilities (even though they are 3 pin fans, works quite well).

Here are a couple pictures of the case to get an idea of layout;







You can see in the last picture the intake air comes from the slits around the edges.

*Note, not that it matters but my case is black but you can see things in the case easier with the white. Also I have a windowed side panel on the way.

Mind you my temps are pretty good but I am always for looking ways to better them so any help is always appreciated.

Thanks!


----------



## DaveLT

That's a good setup mostly but take this in mind. 200mm fan that is intaking along those slits is going to be utter crap. No matter what fan it is it's not going to be good. Try swapping it for 2 120s or wait for the Jetflo 200
If you want to improve silence replace your AIO fans with CM Jetflo 120, they're significantly better than those SP120s

And because if you are using your H100i as exhaust ( You probably should ), get a filter and put one of those spare SP120s that you might have them replaced by Jetflo 120s as a intake. Trust me it's much better that way

Here's a note :
Deepcool GF140 vs Deepcool UF120
1200rpm vs 1300rpm
Both put out the same airflow behind a switch 810 front filter but the GF140 is louder than the UF120 at that RPM


----------



## THEStorm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> That's a good setup mostly but take this in mind. 200mm fan that is intaking along those slits is going to be utter crap. No matter what fan it is it's not going to be good. Try swapping it for 2 120s or wait for the Jetflo 200
> If you want to improve silence replace your AIO fans with CM Jetflo 120, they're significantly better than those SP120s
> 
> And because if you are using your H100i as exhaust ( You probably should ), get a filter and put one of those spare SP120s that you might have them replaced by Jetflo 120s as a intake. Trust me it's much better that way
> 
> Here's a note :
> Deepcool GF140 vs Deepcool UF120
> 1200rpm vs 1300rpm
> Both put out the same airflow behind a switch 810 front filter but the GF140 is louder than the UF120 at that RPM


Sadly the front intake only allows for the following options; 1 x 200mm, 1 x 140mm, 1 x 120mm. (edit keep in mind that all configurations would be centered) I do have 1 spare SP120 that I could run in the front as an intake. I am not sure about what to do for a dust filter up front though as I think dust would sneak in around a filtered 120mm.

My H100i actually runs very quiet and quite cool with the SP120's and I am using it as an intake as the grill top section of the case has dust filtering in it that is non removable.

Edit, here you can see the configurations:


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *THEStorm*
> 
> Sadly the front intake only allows for the following options; 1 x 200mm, 1 x 140mm, 1 x 120mm. (edit keep in mind that all configurations would be centered) I do have 1 spare SP120 that I could run in the front as an intake. I am not sure about what to do for a dust filter up front though as I think dust would sneak in around a filtered 120mm.
> 
> My H100i actually runs very quiet and quite cool with the SP120's and I am using it as an intake as the grill top section of the case has dust filtering in it that is non removable.
> 
> Edit, here you can see the configurations:


Dust will not sneak around unless the case has negative airflow.

If that's fine with you then ok







Wait for the Jetflo 200 is all I have to say now









I actually went onto Aerocool's site when I was thinking.


----------



## THEStorm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Dust will not sneak around unless the case has negative airflow.
> 
> If that's fine with you then ok
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait for the Jetflo 200 is all I have to say now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually went onto Aerocool's site when I was thinking.


Okay, thanks! So there is no point in replacing the 200mm Megaflow with the 120mm SP120 for the time being?

My initial resoning behind upgrading to a "better" 200mm was to keep the airflow spread out to help feed the GPU air. But my reasoning could be flawed.

For a blower style card would you still recommend removing the extra pci slot covers?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *THEStorm*
> 
> Okay, thanks! So there is no point in replacing the 200mm Megaflow with the 120mm SP120 for the time being?
> 
> My initial resoning behind upgrading to a "better" 200mm was to keep the airflow spread out to help feed the GPU air. But my reasoning could be flawed.
> 
> For a blower style card would you still recommend removing the extra pci slot covers?


It's very hard to say. but you can try a 120mm.

It's kinda flawed because some 4U OEM servers use 92mm fans instead of 120mm fans if the heatsinks are passive. Don't ever forget this : Air goes where you push it. But we only need to ventilate the case therefore the fans on the CPU/GPU is free to intake whereever they like
No. Don't ever remove the PCI slot covers if you are using a ref. blower


----------



## bogie46

For the record Dave, that config with one exhaust is correct, 4 intake-1 exhaust?


----------



## bogie46

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I think he probably got the bottom intake wrong. anyway if he's not using HDD cages he won't need that one.
> Um, the top exhaust. It exhausts AND then the fan very next to it intakes ... How Brilliant is that.
> Yeah but I ran a 1 exhaust 2 intake setup for a long time and dust still collected where the GPU is.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Than I must be looking at something wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The layout I see has:
> 
> 2x front intake
> 1x bottom intake coming from where PSU mounts
> 1x top intake in about the middle of top
> 1x top exhaust at bavk of top
> 1x back exhaust
> Dave, you said to flip top exhaust to intake. Only top exhaust is at the back of the top.. and it would blow air right down on the exhaust from cooler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What rear intake?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bogie46*
> 
> For the record Dave, that config with one exhaust is correct, 4 intake-1 exhaust?


I dont have bottom fan


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bogie46*
> 
> For the record Dave, that config with one exhaust is correct, 4 intake-1 exhaust?


The explanation why it might work fine with that much intake is this video of an old case from Silverstone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe-2ZqmSGug. That FT01 case has two 180mm fans, one at the top and one at the front. If my math is right, one 180mm fan is actually a larger area than two 120mm fans, so that FT01 is actually pretty crazy. In that video, you see that it even works without any exhaust fan at all.

You should just try it and report back what you see!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bogie46*
> 
> For the record Dave, that config with one exhaust is correct, 4 intake-1 exhaust?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bogie46*
> 
> I dont have bottom fan


What is that bottom arrow for? 4 intake 1 exhaust is good.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> The explanation why it might work fine with that much intake is that video in the opening post of this thread. That FT01 case has two 180mm fans, one at the top and one at the front. If my math is right, one 180mm fan is actually a larger area than two 120mm fans, so that FT01 is actually pretty crazy. In that video, you see that it even works without any exhaust fan at all.
> 
> You should just try it and report back what you see!


That's interesting but exhaust gets the air out faster, which is my point. And also like I mentioned in the OP bigger is never better. An AP181 is actually pretty loud, actually louder than my AFB1212SHEs
Video ... Wait what?


----------



## deepor

Oops... sorry, it seems I was confused and thought of different thread (I fixed my comment).


----------



## Matt26LFC

Dave, would you recommend swapping Bitfenix Spectre Pro 140s for Corsair AF 140 Quiet Editions?

There going in the front of my Switch 810, but as *Exhaust!* I've already cut away the fan filter so its going to be fairly unrestricted, my main resaon for doing this is to try to reduce noise as I find the Spectre Pro's to be quite loud when I have them turned up. I mine alt coins almost 24/7 atm and would like to reduce some fan noise!

I should perhaps also mention that I have a 360 Rad in the roof as Intake and 240 Rad in the bottom also as Intake so both rads are spewing a lot of very warm air into the case hence the reason for making both front fans Exhaust now.

Thanks


----------



## [CyGnus]

In my opinion corsair fans are bad (they do too much noise for what they offer) Take a look at the TY140 very cheap and good fan for the price (8€)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Matt26LFC*
> 
> Dave, would you recommend swapping Bitfenix Spectre Pro 140s for Corsair AF 140 Quiet Editions?
> 
> There going in the front of my Switch 810, but as *Exhaust!* I've already cut away the fan filter so its going to be fairly unrestricted, my main resaon for doing this is to try to reduce noise as I find the Spectre Pro's to be quite loud when I have them turned up. I mine alt coins almost 24/7 atm and would like to reduce some fan noise!
> 
> I should perhaps also mention that I have a 360 Rad in the roof as Intake and 240 Rad in the bottom also as Intake so both rads are spewing a lot of very warm air into the case hence the reason for making both front fans Exhaust now.
> 
> Thanks


No I wouldn't. why did you turn the front into an exhaust? I wouldn't do that if I were you.

Not a good idea to do that. It's better to turn the 240 into an exhaust and the 2 front fans as intake. Top can stay as a intake


----------



## Matt26LFC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> No I wouldn't. why did you turn the front into an exhaust? I wouldn't do that if I were you.
> 
> Not a good idea to do that. It's better to turn the 240 into an exhaust and the 2 front fans as intake. Top can stay as a intake


Hey thanks for the reply

Basically I turned the front into Exhaust because I felt the rear Exhaust on its own wasn't enough. I didn't want the rad in the roof to be exhaust anymore as I thought I'd get better water temps running it as intake. Was this a bad idea then? I didn't want the warm air coming from my 240 rad in the bottom to be recycled through the top radiator.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Matt26LFC*
> 
> Hey thanks for the reply
> 
> Basically I turned the front into Exhaust because I felt the rear Exhaust on its own wasn't enough. I didn't want the rad in the roof to be exhaust anymore as I thought I'd get better water temps running it as intake. Was this a bad idea then? I didn't want the warm air coming from my 240 rad in the bottom to be recycled through the top radiator.


It's kind of a bad idea TBH. Don't worry about that. There is absolutely no way for air to make it through that way. I also have another suggestion, turn the top into an exhaust and the rear as an exhaust while keeping bottom as an intake and front as an intake

I do have the Switch 810 as well so I know what you're talking about


----------



## stubass

Hey Dave
What is your advice on better fans and orientation for my case for best airflow??
http://www.coolermaster.com/case/mid-tower/haf-912-advanced/
ATM it is just using the stock fans and orientation as in the above link!

Also what would you put on my cooler which is a Prolimatech Megahalems Rev C??
I currently have these fans on my cooler.. Arctic F12 PWM CO

Cheers


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Hey Dave
> What is your advice on better fans and orientation for my case for best airflow??
> http://www.coolermaster.com/case/mid-tower/haf-912-advanced/
> ATM it is just using the stock fans and orientation as in the above link!
> 
> Also what would you put on my cooler which is a Prolimatech Megahalems Rev C??
> I currently have these fans on my cooler.. Arctic F12 PWM CO
> 
> Cheers


the last time I saw you on this thread has been such a long time









Jetflo 120 without a doubt









front 2 intake, top intake (You only need 1) top front intake
Rear exhaust, side panel exhaust


----------



## stubass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Hey Dave
> What is your advice on better fans and orientation for my case for best airflow??
> http://www.coolermaster.com/case/mid-tower/haf-912-advanced/
> ATM it is just using the stock fans and orientation as in the above link!
> 
> Also what would you put on my cooler which is a Prolimatech Megahalems Rev C??
> I currently have these fans on my cooler.. Arctic F12 PWM CO
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the last time I saw you on this thread has been such a long time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jetflo 120 without a doubt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> front 2 intake, top intake (You only need 1) top front intake
> Rear exhaust, side panel exhaust
Click to expand...

It has been awhile since I have asked anything on this thread but i am always subscribed to it









Thanks for the rec and will grab the jetflo's... top front half of the intake is what i expected plus i have the top HDD cage removed









So these you say eh
http://www.coolermaster.com/cooling/case-fan/jetflo-120/

One thing, should i replace my cooler fans?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> It has been awhile since I have asked anything on this thread but i am always subscribed to it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the rec and will grab the jetflo's... top front half of the intake is what i expected plus i have the top HDD cage removed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So these you say eh
> http://www.coolermaster.com/cooling/case-fan/jetflo-120/
> 
> One thing, should i replace my cooler fans?


Definitely. You can take those two fans and put them on the 2 exhausts


----------



## stubass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> It has been awhile since I have asked anything on this thread but i am always subscribed to it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the rec and will grab the jetflo's... top front half of the intake is what i expected plus i have the top HDD cage removed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So these you say eh
> http://www.coolermaster.com/cooling/case-fan/jetflo-120/
> 
> One thing, should i replace my cooler fans?
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely. You can take those two fans and put them on the 2 exhausts
Click to expand...

So take the two Arctic F12 CO PWM's off my cooler, replace them with jetflo's and put the two Arctic F12 CO PWM's on both exhaust points?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> So take the two Arctic F12 CO PWM's off my cooler, replace them with jetflo's and put the two Arctic F12 CO PWM's on both exhaust points?


Yep.


----------



## stubass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> So take the two Arctic F12 CO PWM's off my cooler, replace them with jetflo's and put the two Arctic F12 CO PWM's on both exhaust points?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.
Click to expand...

Cheers mate, just wanted to confirm


----------



## Khalenth

what is the best option, for 3 120mm intake fans on Corsair Carbide 540 Air Flow ?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Khalenth*
> 
> what is the best option, for 3 120mm intake fans on Corsair Carbide 540 Air Flow ?


CM Jetflo 120 or http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/23-G410F-001-Acer-Case-Fan-P-N-Afb1212L-8S50-Delta-/400658215251
Also,
http://www.amazon.com/Minebea-NMB-MAT-4710KL-04W-B56-409629-001-4-Wire/dp/B0045JT5EO


----------



## DaveLT

I do have many high speed fans ... But TBH I am a lover of deep silence. I'm not kidding.
That said though the "black edition" of my fans are ... MORE SPEED MORE VIOLENCE









Anyway bump for awareness.


----------



## Dureji

Hey Dave,

Can you take a look at my case fans setup and give me your opinion please? Is there anything I should change or any fans that I should replace? The case is a Fractal Design Arc Midi R2 and it has dust filters in all fan slots, except the rear exhaust fan slot.



Thanks!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dureji*
> 
> Hey Dave,
> 
> Can you take a look at my case fans setup and give me your opinion please? Is there anything I should change or any fans that I should replace? The case is a Fractal Design Arc Midi R2 and it has dust filters in all fan slots, except the rear exhaust fan slot.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!


You would want to remove the the top fan nearest to the 5-1/4" bay
If you already have filters flip the other top fan to an intake.


----------



## Dureji

Ok, I will do that. Would I be better off get aftermarket fans with higher CFM to replace the stock fans in the rear and top slots? My bitfenix fans in the front and bottom are connected to the fan controller, they can get between 50-90 CFM, depending on the speed level.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dureji*
> 
> Ok, I will do that. Would I be better off get aftermarket fans with higher CFM to replace the stock fans in the rear and top slots? My bitfenix fans in the front and bottom are connected to the fan controller, they can get between 50-90 CFM, depending on the speed level.


THOSE fans definitely aren't going to get anywhere near that.
1) Restriction.
2) they're bitfenix fans, 'nuff said.

And no, I don't think you need to do much better since the top fan is to cool the VRMs


----------



## Dureji

Ok, thank you for your advice.


----------



## sirkickass

hi dave, i have been reading this with great interest.

i am building a custom case with 4 inlets, 2 each side of the case and a 4 fan push pull config with my AIO cooling on a 240 rad, what i would like to know is, i purchased 4 noctua nf s12b FLX and 4 nf s12b ULN (yes i know you dont rate the noctua's highly). the FLX have a top speed of 1200 RPM with an airflow of 100,6 m³/h, against the ULN 700 RPM and an airflow of 56,9 m³/h. which would you recommend for intakes and exhausts. i was thinking the faster flx's for the intakes going with what you are saying about increased airflow and better sp and using the lower rated ULN's for the rad on a push pull.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sirkickass*
> 
> hi dave, i have been reading this with great interest.
> 
> i am building a custom case with 4 inlets, 2 each side of the case and a 4 fan push pull config with my AIO cooling on a 240 rad, what i would like to know is, i purchased 4 noctua nf s12b FLX and 4 nf s12b ULN (yes i know you dont rate the noctua's highly). the FLX have a top speed of 1200 RPM with an airflow of 100,6 m³/h, against the ULN 700 RPM and an airflow of 56,9 m³/h. which would you recommend for intakes and exhausts. i was thinking the faster flx's for the intakes going with what you are saying about increased airflow and better sp and using the lower rated ULN's for the rad on a push pull.


I really have no idea why you bought noctuas. Buy Gentle Typhoons, the FLXs barely have enough static pressure to make it through a filter

Why doesn't anyone listen and buy proper fans?


----------



## Anusha

hey Dave what case cooling setup do your recommend for the Silverstone Raven RV03 case?

I currently have the following setup.

1. two 180mm penetrators that came with the case as bottom intake
2. two enermax t.b. silent fans as intake (near the CPU cooler
3. a 120mm Scythe KAMA FLOW2 as read intake
4. the original silverstone 120mm top exhaust fan

plus, the CPU cooler: silver arrow extreme as pull pull.

here is the case, if you are not familiar with it.
http://www.silverstonetek.com/raven/products/index.php?model=rv03&area=en

i current don:t have the optical drive and the hard drive cages installed. i heard that having them allows air from the front intake fans to be easily channels towards the CPU cooler.


----------



## Terracea

I'm about to get the last few parts for my PC below tomorrow I haven't built a PC in a long long time (AGP, IDE Single Core) and I was having a bit of a last minute panic about the source video I was watching to get my advice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUzdNcZeM-s at 1:07:55

(http://uk.pcpartpicker.com/p/2WLLK)

Intel Core i7-4770K
Noctua NH-U14S
Asus Z87-PRO
G.Skill Ripjaws X DDR3-1866
Sandisk Ultra Plus 64GB
2x Seagate Barracuda 2TB 7200RPM
1x Samsung Spinpoint 1TB
2x Sapphire Tri-x R9 290
BitFenix Ghost
5x BitFenix Spectre Pro LED 56.2 CFM 120mm Fan
Corsair RM 850W
DVD-RW

*Question 1*

I was wondering how to set up my fan for intakes and exhausts, I made a quick and dirty JPEG of the layout, including a third HDD that i already had around.

http://imgur.com/RcdsxtZ

I numbered them all so you could say for example 1 - Intake 2 - Intake 3 Exhaust ect, there are six extra fans in total, five of them are Bitfenix Spectre PRO's and the 6th one is that fan that you can see at point number three, the Spectre PRO's are actually going to be number one through five and the "free" fan that came with the case will be moved to number six.

Room gets a -little- dusty, but not incredibly dusty in case that makes a difference, I don't really like dust in my case as I'm very forgetful to clear it out, but if its going to cost me a lot in temperature then I'd rather get used to cleaning a case than have bad temps in summer.

I'm not even sure if i have enough fan connectors on the motherboard to plug in the 6th one

*Question 2*

Can the CPU cooler be orientated in any direction? and if so should it be up towards fan 1&2 or back towards fan 3?

outside of the intakes and outtakes questions I am a bit worried about the first R9 290 blowing hot air over the second R9 290 but there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about that or is there?...

*Questions 3*

Can the PSU be turned upside down the receive the hot air from the bottom graphics card and then vent it out of the back of the case (where there otherwise isn't an exit) or is that a bad idea / impossible?

One of the reason why i was asking these questions was because I was following along with this Asus NA building a Haswell PC video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUzdNcZeM-s and at 1:07:55 he starts explaining how he will have fan 1&2 as intake fans and the people in the comments were saying that it was complete madness and that 1&2 should be exhausts without a doubt but then there is part of your guide that says you could have all intakes except one exhaust and I wasn't sure again

Thanks in advance with replies. (and apologies in advanced for not going with the fans you would suggest as I was taking the video as gods truth up until the last second I was about to build it, he gets 4.8ghz overclock and -says- it stable with this exact cooling but its more than likely staged and pre-binned







)


----------



## deepor

The NH-U14S might work in both orientations. There's no problem with the physics in the heat-pipes or the base or whatever. Regarding the outer part of the cooler's fins, those are cut off at the bottom, so might not hang over your memory sticks (you chose RAM with large heat-sinks). It's overall probably always best to orient the cooler to blow towards the rear.

The "Fan 2." position in your sketch used as exhaust can steal the fresh air that comes from the bottom front intake fans and make the cooling in the case worse.

Silverstone once built a case where there was intake at those top "1." and "2." positions and it worked great. I'd experiment with that just to satisfy curiosity even if it seems stupid. With that much intake (Fan 1+2+4+5 positions), you could remove the slot covers for all the unused PCI slots next to your graphics cards and that could turn out great.

Here's a demonstration video about that 2008 case with the top intake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe-2ZqmSGug

It obviously can work pretty great so those Youtube comments you mentioned were probably just short-sighted.


----------



## doyll

What Deepor said.
You might find 2nd link in my sig helpful for fan setup and testing.


----------



## Terracea

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> The NH-U14S might work in both orientations. There's no problem with the physics in the heat-pipes or the base or whatever. Regarding the outer part of the cooler's fins, those are cut off at the bottom, so might not hang over your memory sticks (you chose RAM with large heat-sinks). It's overall probably always best to orient the cooler to blow towards the rear.
> 
> The "Fan 2." position in your sketch used as exhaust can steal the fresh air that comes from the bottom front intake fans and make the cooling in the case worse.
> 
> Silverstone once built a case where there was intake at those top "1." and "2." positions and it worked great. I'd experiment with that just to satisfy curiosity even if it seems stupid. With that much intake (Fan 1+2+4+5 positions), you could remove the slot covers for all the unused PCI slots next to your graphics cards and that could turn out great.
> 
> Here's a demonstration video about that 2008 case with the top intake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe-2ZqmSGug
> 
> It obviously can work pretty great so those Youtube comments you mentioned were probably just short-sighted.


Alright thank you, i'll do fan 1-2 and 4-5 as intake and 3 as exhaust, instead of leaving the PCI slots completely open, hot about something like this just for piece of mind? http://www.quietpc.com/gel-pci-brackets seems to be dust filtered PCI covers, The video was pretty interesting as well!

I'm worried about fan 6 (if there is enough ports on the motherboard to plug it in) I was thinking Intake but the second graphics card will be pushing hot air down towards it which conflicts, but if i make it an exhaust then it might steal cool air from 4 and 5
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What Deepor said.
> You might find 2nd link in my sig helpful for fan setup and testing.


Thank you. I took a read and it's very interesting.


----------



## Dureji

Ugh, I can't barely feel airflow from my bitfenix front intakes, I'm thinking about replacing them with:

Phanteks PH-F140HP/TS
Cougar CF-V14HB
Corsair AF140-CO

Which would you recommend for better airflow?


----------



## doyll

Don't even use a fan in 1. It pushes in and 3 pulls it out.
Put fan from 1 in 6 as intake.
Remove all unused PCI slot covers.


----------



## Terracea

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Don't even use a fan in 1. It pushes in and 3 pulls it out.
> Put fan from 1 in 6 as intake.
> Remove all unused PCI slot covers.


Oh, I see. so fan 1 is a bit of a wasted spot then. And you don't think those Dust Filter PCI Covers are any good either? I also just realised (from someone telling me) that the fans on the Sapphire Tri-X are intake towards the card rather than exaust into the case so alot of what I said seems really dumb


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Terracea*
> 
> Oh, I see. so fan 1 is a bit of a wasted spot then. And you don't think those Dust Filter PCI Covers are any good either? I also just realised (from someone telling me) that the fans on the Sapphire Tri-X are intake towards the card rather than exaust into the case so alot of what I said seems really dumb


Absolutely pointless unless you really have lots of negative airflow to begin with.
Which card actually intakes towards the card? They all exhaust to the case aside from the blower types which exhaust to the rear.


----------



## doyll

What Dave said. We want your case to push air out the PCI slots.


----------



## Terracea

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Absolutely pointless unless you really have lots of negative airflow to begin with.
> Which card actually intakes towards the card? They all exhaust to the case aside from the blower types which exhaust to the rear.


http://imgur.com/NOcEJ14

Using my poorly created JPEG as an example, I initially thought the card was doing what's on the orange arrow which is the primary graphics card pushing pushing hot air out onto the second card and the second card pushing hot air out onto the PSU, but now that I look at it it looks to me like the fans are the other way up and doing what the blue arrow shows isn't it? each card pushing air towards it's own heat sink?

Either way, that's the graphics card i am using, if there is something different I should do with it please let me know if you like


----------



## doyll

They are indeed pulling air in.
Basic rule of thumb is the side of fan with no braces is intake and the side with braces to hold motor in middle is exhaust.

You may have a problem getting cool air to the top GPU. The more space between them the better.


----------



## Terracea

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> They are indeed pulling air in.
> Basic rule of thumb is the side of fan with no braces is intake and the side with braces to hold motor in middle is exhaust.
> 
> You may have a problem getting cool air to the top GPU. The more space between them the better.


The R9 290 doesn't use a crossfire bridge at all and does everything through the PCI slot, which means on this motherboard I can do the cards in x8/x8 or x16/x4 I think, Surely I'm better with the x8/x8 or does my usage make a difference?

I game at 5760x1080 (Eyefinity) when I'm not recording anything and the game allows it,
I game whilst recording (FRAPS) and Simultaneously Live Stream to Twitch TV (using Xsplit Free version and DXTORY) at 1920x1080
I render videos from my gaming to my youtube channel (Adobe Premiere Pro) using h.264

EDIT: seems to make a diffrence







http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/pci-express-scaling-p67-chipset-gaming-performance,review-32164-10.html

EDIT2: built the PC, ran into some snags but they aren't airflow related as the cooling was great (my room gets colder with the PC on instead of hotter!) I'll start a new thread for my problems. Thanks again for all the airflow advice everyone









Couldn't find an appropriate place to ask my questions even though i really wanted to ask on these forums but I'll be damned if I'll break the rules and post in the wrong place. If anyone does happen to have a toms account (sorry!) my thread is over here http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-2040745/questions-backups-bios.html


----------



## Dyaems

@ all

I'm looking for a 92mm fans and I found these fans at our local surplus shop:

ADDA AD0912HS-A76GL (3-Pin)
ADDA AD0912UX-A7BGL-ZD1 (4-Pin)
AVC DS09225R12HP039
Delta Electronics AUB0912VH-SP16
Foxconn PV902512HSPF 7A
Foxconn PV902512PSPF 0H
Nidec BETA V TA350DC E34404-58
NMB Minebea 3610RL-04W-S66 (4-Pin)
Sunon KD1209PTB2
---
NMB 3615KL-04W-B59
Nidec BETA V TA350DC M34789-57INV
Nidec BETA V TA350DC M34789-57C04

Any good fan with these choices? Going to use it for exhaust in a small case. They are all terminated with either 3 or 4 pin but im not sure if PWM function works with those 4pin fans. The only "branded" 92mm fans that are available locally are deepcool (not UF sadly), Zalman ZM-F2, and noctua fans.

I also have a 92mmx38mm san ace fans, forgot the actual model though and it is using 4 pin on a 5 socket connector

here is the pic that i uploaded few months ago:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!















i posted it here since Dave's recommended fans are all server-type fans









EDIT: more fan models


----------



## DaveLT

It's got to be the aub0912vh


----------



## Dyaems

thanks man










Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!















EDIT: what about the others? any other decent fan on the list? might as well grab one or two more since they are only $2 a pop


----------



## DaveLT

The AVC or the sunon but tbh the delta is the best


----------



## Dyaems

Okay! That is their last stock (besides the other 90mm and 80mm Delta's) so I wondered what could be used as a "backup" fan in case something goes wrong with the Delta.

Thanks again!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dyaems*
> 
> Okay! That is their last stock (besides the other 90mm and 80mm Delta's) so I wondered what could be used as a "backup" fan in case something goes wrong with the Delta.
> 
> Thanks again!


Deltas hardly ever go wrong







But if you really want a backup fan buy the AVC


----------



## Dyaems

Thanks again +rep


----------



## DaveLT

Any more questions?


----------



## jtom320

Yes.

I'm running a Coolermaster N200 with an H100i p/p in the front. I've got four CF-V12HPB Cougar fans on it ATM. After reading through this thread it seems these are decent and will probabally be ok.

My question is about the side fan and then the top/rear.

First thing is the side will not allow a 25mm thick fan as it will touch my classy. My question is if I should get one of the slimline fans there and then how it should be set. Exhaust seems obvious but I'm wondering how it will all fit with the top two.

I figured with that as exhaust the best option would then be top intake rear exhaust? I'm looking for the absolute ideal set up here in terms of temps as the classified is pretty heavily overclocked and can reach 85 degrees after long sessions. ATM the top two fans are set as exhaust and there is no fan in the side.

In terms of which fans to buy I'm considering AP-15s for the top or the Delta AFB1212 I've seen mentioned in the thread several times. For the slimline fan I need I was considering one of these three.

http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g36/c15/s972/list/p1/Fans-12_Volt_Fans-120mm_x_12mm_Fans-Page1.html

If there are better options please let me know.

Terrible picture to give better idea of what I'm talking about. Exhaust is in red.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I'm running a Coolermaster N200 with an H100i p/p in the front. I've got four CF-V12HPB Cougar fans on it ATM. After reading through this thread it seems these are decent and will probabally be ok.
> 
> My question is about the side fan and then the top/rear.
> 
> First thing is the side will not allow a 25mm thick fan as it will touch my classy. My question is if I should get one of the slimline fans there and then how it should be set. Exhaust seems obvious but I'm wondering how it will all fit with the top two.
> 
> I figured with that as exhaust the best option would then be top intake rear exhaust? I'm looking for the absolute ideal set up here in terms of temps as the classified is pretty heavily overclocked and can reach 85 degrees after long sessions. ATM the top two fans are set as exhaust and there is no fan in the side.
> 
> In terms of which fans to buy I'm considering AP-15s for the top or the Delta AFB1212 I've seen mentioned in the thread several times. For the slimline fan I need I was considering one of these three.
> 
> http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g36/c15/s972/list/p1/Fans-12_Volt_Fans-120mm_x_12mm_Fans-Page1.html
> 
> If there are better options please let me know.
> 
> Terrible picture to give better idea of what I'm talking about. Exhaust is in red.


Cougars won't do for an AIO ... I will never approve (I am not hitler, for if i am I will bomb your house







) of using such fans on an AIO, if it was just normal intakes they're fine but not in this case .. using it on an AIO

It hits ... so the side panel won't close? you should attempt to see if it hits but will close (and work) instead of buying a slimline fan.

that will have to be a rear intake and top exhaust. Since you are on an AIO

If you can afford and find a brand new AP15 do it.
Ideally I think you should remove the front filter and let the H100i be an exhaust and everything else shall be intake.


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Cougars won't do for an AIO ... I will never approve (I am not hitler, for if i am I will bomb your house
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) of using such fans on an AIO, if it was just normal intakes they're fine but not in this case .. using it on an AIO
> 
> It hits ... so the side panel won't close? you should attempt to see if it hits but will close (and work) instead of buying a slimline fan.
> 
> that will have to be a rear intake and top exhaust. Since you are on an AIO
> 
> If you can afford and find a brand new AP15 do it.
> Ideally I think you should remove the front filter and let the H100i be an exhaust and everything else shall be intake.


The case closes with a regular fan installed it's just touching the classified. Seemed non-ideal. It would be fine?

And that is exhaust correct? On the side?

So if I put two delta's on the h100, removed two cougars and then put the other two cougars on the top (top being exhaust, rear being intake, and side being exhaust) this would be ideal?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> The case closes with a regular fan installed it's just touching the classified. Seemed non-ideal. It would be fine?
> 
> And that is exhaust correct? On the side?
> 
> So if I put two delta's on the h100, removed two cougars and then put the other two cougars on the top (top being exhaust, rear being intake, and side being exhaust) this would be ideal?


Yes. In fact I think it's even better ...

GT AP-15s. Yes. Actually make the side a intake as well while turning the h100i into an exhaust (remove the front filter first)


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yes. In fact I think it's even better ...
> 
> GT AP-15s. Yes. Actually make the side a intake as well while turning the h100i into an exhaust (remove the front filter first)


Ok so everything intake but h100i. Glad I asked cause I would have never come up with that on my own.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835553006

Also these are the Cougars I currently have. Just want to confirm that this model is in fact bad. I just ask cause I've read otherwise in a few places. But you clearly know your stuff so I'll go off what you think.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> Ok so everything intake but h100i. Glad I asked cause I would have never come up with that on my own.
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835553006
> 
> Also these are the Cougars I currently have. Just want to confirm that this model is in fact bad. I just ask cause I've read otherwise in a few places. But you clearly know your stuff so I'll go off what you think.


These are good for just case fans, essentially.


----------



## altair31

Hello, I have Define R4 and I'm planning to replace the stock front fans. I'm choosing between a pair of Corsair SP120 and a pair of Noctua NF-P14FLX 140mm fans. Which is a better replacement for the front fans?


----------



## deepor

The NF-P14 FLX are old. The newer Noctua fans are much improved I feel, a good bit less air noise when running at their higher speeds.


----------



## altair31

I see, but the nf-p14 are the only 140mm noctua fans that is available in our country.


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *altair31*
> 
> I see, but the nf-p14 are the only 140mm noctua fans that is available in our country.


You don't need to have a noctua fan you know, there are a lot of other alternatives:

Yate loons, Gelid Silent 14, Aeroshark (make sure to sure the speed reducer) and thermalright TY 143 or TY 147


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *altair31*
> 
> Hello, I have Define R4 and I'm planning to replace the stock front fans. I'm choosing between a pair of Corsair SP120 and a pair of Noctua NF-P14FLX 140mm fans. Which is a better replacement for the front fans?


Can you find a CM Jetflo 120? the problem is your case is very very restrictive with the front door or without.


----------



## altair31

I see, i don't think i can find those fans in our country. I chose those fans because they are the only available ones aside from a few fans from cougar, cooler master and silverstone.


----------



## altair31

I can't find a store selling CM Jetflo 120mms but I found one selling Aerocool shark 140mm, would that be better than those 2?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *altair31*
> 
> I can't find a store selling CM Jetflo 120mms but I found one selling Aerocool shark 140mm, would that be better than those 2?


I'd rather you pick a sp120 if that's the case


----------



## altair31

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'd rather you pick a sp120 if that's the case


ok then, thanks Dave!, thanks everyone!


----------



## altair31

oh wait, after asking some other store, i found one selling a scythe kaze jyuni 120mm 1900 rpm, gentle typhoon 1850rpm, 5400rpm and a cooler mater excalibur. Is the corsair sp120 still better than these fans? Thanks in advance.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *altair31*
> 
> oh wait, after asking some other store, i found one selling a scythe kaze jyuni 120mm 1900 rpm, gentle typhoon 1850rpm, 5400rpm and a cooler mater excalibur. Is the corsair sp120 still better than these fans? Thanks in advance.


It is.


----------



## hathornd

Pretty comprehensive guide. Lots of good info, especially about side-mount fans and stuff, though it is very unlikely that I will ever put Deltas in anything I have, hahaha.

But I read in a thread once where you said that positive and negative pressure is never generated inside a computer case, and then called yourself an expert? That's weird, because if there wasn't pressure (positive or negative), air simply wouldn't move. Any "cooling expert" who writes a guide this big would understand the way basic meteorology works?


----------



## AMW1011

What are your thoughts on NZXT FX 120LB fans? The specs seem pretty competitive and it reminds me of the 25mm Deltas I used to have. I think the OEM is Dynatron DF1212025_H.


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hathornd*
> 
> Pretty comprehensive guide. Lots of good info, especially about side-mount fans and stuff, though it is very unlikely that I will ever put Deltas in anything I have, hahaha.
> 
> But I read in a thread once where you said that positive and negative pressure is never generated inside a computer case, and then called yourself an expert? That's weird, because if there wasn't pressure (positive or negative), air simply wouldn't move. Any "cooling expert" who writes a guide this big would understand the way basic meteorology works?


Since I'm asking a question, I suppose it's only fair to contribute. I think you've misunderstood the point he is trying to make. Saying that have 2 intake fans and one equal 1 exhaust fan will cause positive pressure in a case is kind of a misnomer. You're not going to have any appreciable change in air pressure inside the entire case, you'll just have air flow that is dictated more by the intake fans than exhaust fans. Simply not enough actual airflow in most situations to cause any "real" positive or negative pressure.


----------



## hathornd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> Since I'm asking a question, I suppose it's only fair to contribute. I think you've misunderstood the point he is trying to make. *Saying that have 2 intake fans and one equal 1 exhaust fan will cause positive pressure in a case is kind of a misnomer.* You're not going to have any appreciable change in air pressure inside the entire case, you'll just have air flow that is dictated more by the intake fans than exhaust fans. Simply not enough actual airflow in most situations to cause any "real" positive or negative pressure.


It is exactly not a misnomer.

Dust buildup.

Unless your case is perfectly 100% sealed, re-balance your fans to be mostly intake for 3 weeks, then all exhaust for 3 weeks. Compare buildup. All those "not-sealed" areas (there are a lot of them) pull in air (negative pressure balance) when your case is mostly exhaust. If it is mostly intake, it will blow air out (positive pressure balance).

Also, in the thread I made reference to, Dave says that positive or negative pressure would suck the side panels in or blow them off, which I fully understand to be false though I am no cooling expert.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> What are your thoughts on NZXT FX 120LB fans? The specs seem pretty competitive and it reminds me of the 25mm Deltas I used to have. I think the OEM is Dynatron DF1212025_H.


Not going to be worth any mention as they are the sort of cheap variety fans that many case companies puts into their cheap cases. Yes the OEM is dynatron which is better than say, yate loon but it's the non-AVC "DF" design which is pathetic.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> Since I'm asking a question, I suppose it's only fair to contribute. I think you've misunderstood the point he is trying to make. Saying that have 2 intake fans and one equal 1 exhaust fan will cause positive pressure in a case is kind of a misnomer. You're not going to have any appreciable change in air pressure inside the entire case, you'll just have air flow that is dictated more by the intake fans than exhaust fans. Simply not enough actual airflow in most situations to cause any "real" positive or negative pressure.


Yes that, I only consider positive pressure or negative pressure when we're speaking of real pressure, not just some airflow. Like in a turbo, that's real pressure.


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Not going to be worth any mention as they are the sort of cheap variety fans that many case companies puts into their cheap cases. Yes the OEM is dynatron which is better than say, yate loon but it's the non-AVC "DF" design which is pathetic.


Hmm had a feeling. At $9 a piece they're still likely not a terrible choice. Any tips for reasonably priced deltas? The deltas and San ace fans are so much more expensive now than when I last was in the market. I remember getting new deltas for something like $5 a piece in common group buys and scoffing at $15-20 ea at Frozencpu. Now $20 seems to be the minimum for their "worse" products.


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hathornd*
> 
> It is exactly not a misnomer.
> 
> Dust buildup.
> 
> Unless your case is perfectly 100% sealed, re-balance your fans to be mostly intake for 3 weeks, then all exhaust for 3 weeks. Compare buildup. All those "not-sealed" areas (there are a lot of them) pull in air (negative pressure balance) when your case is mostly exhaust. If it is mostly intake, it will blow air out (positive pressure balance).
> 
> Also, in the thread I made reference to, Dave says that positive or negative pressure would suck the side panels in or blow them off, which I fully understand to be false though I am no cooling expert.


For the most part the difference in dust build up will be negligable. Again, there isn't anything approaching enough airflow to cause a change in overall pressure inside of a case. My case is as "positive pressure" as a case will get and I can remove a 5.25" bay cover and virtually no air will pass out of it.

Those comments about blowing the panel off were a ways to show you how much airflow would be required to cause a pressure change. Hyperbole, but only slightly.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> For the most part the difference in dust build up will be negligable. Again, there isn't anything approaching enough airflow to cause a change in overall pressure inside of a case. My case is as "positive pressure" as a case will get and I can remove a 5.25" bay cover and virtually no air will pass out of it.
> 
> Those comments about blowing the panel off were a ways to show you how much airflow would be required to cause a pressure change. Hyperbole, but only slightly.


At the very most all you will get is this tiny bit of airflow difference, pressure is another entirely different ballpark. A pressure differential will wreak havoc on PC fans.




Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> Hmm had a feeling. At $9 a piece they're still likely not a terrible choice. Any tips for reasonably priced deltas? The deltas and San ace fans are so much more expensive now than when I last was in the market. I remember getting new deltas for something like $5 a piece in common group buys and scoffing at $15-20 ea at Frozencpu. Now $20 seems to be the minimum for their "worse" products.


What a shame. At that price a gentle typhoon is better bet. I got my AFBs at 2$ each. Check cwc-group their prices are lower there and you can pick the AVC fans instead also.


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> What a shame. At that price a gentle typhoon is better bet. I got my AFBs at 2$ each. Check cwc-group their prices are lower there and you can pick the AVC fans instead also.


Ironically I think newegg carrying industrial fans has increased the prices. Good stuff with CWC, forgot about those places. Are 25mm Delta fans worth it? Think I took some flak for not going with 38mm before, though I ripped mine out of an old Dell. I'm looking at these BTW:

http://cwc-group.com/afb1224mac54.html


----------



## hathornd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> For the most part the difference in dust build up will be negligable. Again, there isn't anything approaching enough airflow to cause a change in overall pressure inside of a case. My case is as "positive pressure" as a case will get and I can remove a 5.25" bay cover and virtually no air will pass out of it.
> 
> Those comments about blowing the panel off were a ways to show you how much airflow would be required to cause a pressure change. Hyperbole, but only slightly.


Air does not move if there is no pressure change.

Not 25psi. Not even 5. But pressure above atmospheric causes air movement. Even .5 psi is real pressure, as is .1 psi. Turbos make more pressure, but fans and cases make and hold (respectively) pressure.

That turbo analogy is like saying a CPU doesn't make heat because nuclear reactions make much much more heat, so CPU "heat" isn't really heat. Come on.

I have 2 intake Gentle Typhoons on my radiator, and one Gentle Typhoon on my top as exhaust. My side panel (right over the GPU-area) blows a slight amount of air out, as to say if I position a piece of paper over it, the airflow pushes the paper outwards, thus indicating positive pressure.


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hathornd*
> 
> Air does not move if there is no pressure change.
> 
> Not 25psi. Not even 5. But pressure above atmospheric causes air movement. Even .5 psi is real pressure, as is .1 psi. Turbos make more pressure, but fans and cases make and hold (respectively) pressure.
> 
> That turbo analogy is like saying a CPU doesn't make heat because nuclear reactions make much much more heat, so CPU "heat" isn't really heat. Come on.
> 
> I have 2 intake Gentle Typhoons on my radiator, and one Gentle Typhoon on my top as exhaust. My side panel (right over the GPU-area) blows a slight amount of air out, as to say if I position a piece of paper over it, the airflow pushes the paper outwards, thus indicating positive pressure.


I'll try to put this in simple terms. Say your case is 50L in volume. For there to be "negative pressure inside your case" then all 50L must be under that pressure change. Its virtually impossible to do that with case fans. Your experiencing air flow or air pressure caused by the fans. Those fans are causing pressurized air to move in a certain direct, and as fluid particles that air escapes via the path of least resistance.

That's what you feel and that's what people refer to with the whole "negative pressure increases dust" thing, its just airflow. Under no circumstances is the space in your case pressurized.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> Ironically I think newegg carrying industrial fans has increased the prices. Good stuff with CWC, forgot about those places. Are 25mm Delta fans worth it? Think I took some flak for not going with 38mm before, though I ripped mine out of an old Dell. I'm looking at these BTW:
> 
> http://cwc-group.com/afb1224mac54.html


Newegg are utter scammers. First they raised prices on delta fans when they are easily gotten from the Delta for 10$ and then they raise prices on all GPUs thanks to the mining craze
I don't see what's wrong with 38mm fans, they have increased airflow and static pressure characteristics compared to the 25mm brethens. 25mm fans are for places you don't need 38mm fans like low-density rad/heatsink and case fan mounts.
24v








http://cwc-group.com/8008944.html
Referring back to the um, what fans was that? NZXT FX? You could buy a Antec tricool off cwc-group and it's about the same perf for half price.
http://cwc-group.com/afb1212hr00.html get a fan controller of course
http://cwc-group.com/wfb1212h.html outperforms sp120 greatly.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hathornd*
> 
> Air does not move if there is no pressure change.
> 
> Not 25psi. Not even 5. But pressure above atmospheric causes air movement. Even .5 psi is real pressure, as is .1 psi. Turbos make more pressure, but fans and cases make and hold (respectively) pressure.
> 
> That turbo analogy is like saying a CPU doesn't make heat because nuclear reactions make much much more heat, so CPU "heat" isn't really heat. Come on.
> 
> I have 2 intake Gentle Typhoons on my radiator, and one Gentle Typhoon on my top as exhaust. My side panel (right over the GPU-area) blows a slight amount of air out, as to say if I position a piece of paper over it, the airflow pushes the paper outwards, thus indicating positive pressure.


Read below
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> I'll try to put this in simple terms. Say your case is 50L in volume. For there to be "negative pressure inside your case" then all 50L must be under that pressure change. Its virtually impossible to do that with case fans. Your experiencing air flow or air pressure caused by the fans. Those fans are causing pressurized air to move in a certain direct, and as fluid particles that air escapes via the path of least resistance.
> 
> That's what you feel and that's what people refer to with the whole "negative pressure increases dust" thing, its just airflow. Under no circumstances is the space in your case pressurized.


that's true. For it to be pressurized the fans have to move at least 130CFM in a 50L case, which is rather impossible since most people turn the fan speed down. In that case it is about 0.8psi


----------



## hathornd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> That's what you feel and that's what people refer to with the whole "negative pressure increases dust" thing, its just airflow. *Under no circumstances is the space in your case pressurized.*


Airflow means the presence of pressure. I don't understand why you say you have to "put this in simple terms". Are you being condescending? I understand the concept you are trying to convince me to be true: You are saying that there is a sort of fake pressure, only airflow in, or airflow out. What I have said, several times because I feel it bears repeating, is that air does not move from one place to another without a pressure differential.

There is no magic wind-elf that just pushes the air, it is an interaction of high-and-low pressure, and high pressure's crazy tendency to seek out areas of low pressure by literally moving to them. Now if you have more intake than exhaust, then the area of high pressure is in your case, and the area of low pressure is outside of your case. Conversely, if you have more exhaust than intake, you are creating an area of low pressure inside your case. In this situation, the high pressure area exists outside the walls of your case.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> *In that case it is about 0.8psi*


Of positive pressure.

Thank you though Dave, you have proven my point.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hathornd*
> 
> Airflow means the presence of pressure. I don't understand why you say you have to "put this in simple terms". Are you being condescending? I understand the concept you are trying to convince me to be true: You are saying that there is a sort of fake pressure, only airflow in, or airflow out. What I have said, several times because I feel it bears repeating, is that air does not move from one place to another without a pressure differential.
> 
> There is no magic wind-elf that just pushes the air, it is an interaction of high-and-low pressure, and high pressure's crazy tendency to seek out areas of low pressure by literally moving to them. Now if you have more intake than exhaust, then the area of high pressure is in your case, and the area of low pressure is outside of your case. Conversely, if you have more exhaust than intake, you are creating an area of low pressure inside your case. In this situation, the high pressure area exists outside the walls of your case.
> Of positive pressure.
> 
> Thank you though Dave, you have proven my point.


I didn't prove your point, I am DISPROVING your point. You need to deduct whatever fan you have as exhaust


----------



## DaveLT

http://www.amazon.com/Minebea-NMB-MAT-4710KL-04W-B56-409629-001-4-Wire/dp/B0045JT5EO
http://www.cwc-group.com/nm4712cofap4.html

Another fan I recommend for case fans. Terence52 had been using this fan so I decided to buy 2 to see what's what and it's a really surprisingly good fan.


----------



## cpmee

Quote:


> Another fan I recommend for case fans. Terence52 had been using this fan so I decided to buy 2 to see what's what and it's a really surprisingly good fan.


Specs here:
http://www.nmbtc.com/pdf/catalogs/Fan_and_Blowers_Catalog_Full.pdf

Its a gonna be noisy at full speed.







I have lots of NMB fans in my collection, and they all are on the noisy side. They do last a long time though.


----------



## doyll

There is a pressure difference between intake and exhaust sides of a fan running on an open bench. This difference is what makes air move. But this is very little pressure.difference. Amazingly there is 1psia difference between air pressure at sea level and at 2000 feet above sea level... 4psia difference at 8500 feet.

Ever take an unopened bag of chips up into the mountains?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cpmee*
> 
> Specs here:
> http://www.nmbtc.com/pdf/catalogs/Fan_and_Blowers_Catalog_Full.pdf
> 
> Its a gonna be noisy at full speed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have lots of NMB fans in my collection, and they all are on the noisy side. They do last a long time though.


Of course it's gonna be noisy duh. they have low speed versions as well but this one has PWM and has a metric ton of airflow. Of course I say it's better for case fans because of it's high CFM and lower static pressure.


----------



## hathornd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> There is a pressure difference between intake and exhaust sides of a fan running on an open bench. This difference is what makes air move. But this is very little pressure.difference. Amazingly there is 1psia difference between air pressure at sea level and at 2000 feet above sea level... 4psia difference at 8500 feet.
> 
> Ever take an unopened bag of chips up into the mountains?


Yes. This x100.

The things I have stated are not my opinion. They are scientific fact. ANY measurable pressure IS pressure. If air is moving there exists a pressure differential.

Let me be clear: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT 25 PSI. .1 psi is still pressure.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I didn't prove your point, I am DISPROVING your point. You need to deduct whatever fan you have as exhaust


Then make the .8 psi become .3 psi. Or flip your intake and exhaust and it becomes -.3 psi. Again, this is not really a point for discussion, but I can't believe a "cooling expert" is discussing the existence of positive or negative pressure inside of a computer case as if the existence of pressure is up for debate. Like Doyll said, if there is movement THERE IS PRESSURE.

Your guide is good, thanks for that. But if you believe that "real" pressure means 10-20 psi, and that .1 psi doesn't qualify, then I am just lost. Pressure can be measured in millibars, or 1/1000 of a bar , which is 14.5 psia (not a millibar, a bar is 14.5). Pressure measured with this scale, which you would use to measure the difference of pressure in a computer case, is real pressure.

Again, not my opinion. It is fact.


----------



## DaveLT

There frankly, really isn't any pressure difference in a case at low airflow levels. To have any pressure differences the fans must be pushing more air than the entire case volume is per second.
I say 110CFM is required to have any pressure differential for a 50L case (A mid tower is 60L) but 130CFM is saying that without filters and we all have that but also to get 130CFM with filtering and mesh is a bit of a noisy affair.

If not we could all get lightly boosted engines without turbos







(Electric superchargers usually aren't enough to even lightly boost a engine)


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> There frankly, really isn't any pressure difference in a case at low airflow levels. To have any pressure differences the fans must be pushing more air than the entire case volume is per second.
> I say 110CFM is required to have any pressure differential for a 50L case (A mid tower is 60L) but 130CFM is saying that without filters and we all have that but also to get 130CFM with filtering and mesh is a bit of a noisy affair.
> 
> If not we could all get lightly boosted engines without turbos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Electric superchargers usually aren't enough to even lightly boost a engine)


You have put forth much good in this thread, but you have also made many bold statements of supposed reality that are unfounded and cannot be substantiated, but can easily be dis-proven by science, physics and facts.

Sorry Dave, but hathornd and I are correct. The fact is for air to move it must have higher pressure air behind it to push it into the lower pressure area in front of it.

130cfm of airflow is not what make the noise. The noise is a result of moving 130cfrm through a small opening. A single 130cfm 140mm fan is noisy. 3x 43cfm 140mm fans are not.

Air scoops on cars are using vehicle's movement through the air to increase airflow to components; lightly boosting engine intake airflow.. or cooling brakes, heat exchangers, etc.

Sailing ships do not use the wind to push the sails, they use the sails to create a vacuum in front of them that draws the sails toward it. That is what the tattle-tails are for; to help determine optimum sail position to get the best draw.
 

Airplane wings create lift in a similar fashion.


The simple act of breathing in is done by expanding the lungs thereby creating a low pressure that draws outside air into our lungs.. and exhaling is contracting the lungs thereby creating higher pressure than around us that draws the air out of our lungs

If you do not understand this basic principle of physics you should not me trying to tell others how to cool.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry Dave, but hathornd and I are correct. The fact is for air to move it must have higher pressure air behind it to push it into the lower pressure area in front of it.
> 
> You have put forth much good in this thread, but you have also made many bold statements of supposed reality that are unfounded and cannot be substanciated, but can easily be dis-proven by science, physics and facts.
> 
> If you do not understand this basic principle of physics you should not me trying to tell others how to cool.


Believe yourselves if you want. You said it yourself, air goes where you push it. FANS push, they don't generate pressure to dictate where airflow goes to.


----------



## 161029

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Believe yourselves if you want. You said it yourself, air goes where you push it. FANS push, they don't generate pressure to dictate where airflow goes to.


Yes, the fan blades push the air in the given direction. This, however, creates a positive pressure in the direction the fan pushes the air for a split second along with an area that is of slightly negative pressure at the intake causing air to try to move down the concentration gradient on both sides of the fan.

The rest of the moving air after the fan is moved by the force of the pressure.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Believe yourselves if you want. You said it yourself, air goes where you push it. FANS push, they don't generate pressure to dictate where airflow goes to.


I'm not believing myself.









It is simple science and physics.

Movement of air is caused by temperature or pressure differences.

Where there are differences of pressure between two places, a pressure gradient exists, across which air moves: from the high-pressure area to the low-pressure area.

Your refusal to accept / acknowledge these facts is only showing how little knowledge you are using to make your statements of so called facts. :


----------



## deepor

It's just a different name for this "air gets pushed" stuff. The air moves because there's a "pressure" difference in the areas around the fan and Nature keeps things in balance. It's technically pressure if language is being used like you do in math.

It's also perhaps not just technically a pressure difference through playing around with language, I feel it might also be something real inside the whole inside space of the case or I'd have no explanation why all my dust problems are fixed after I rearranged fans despite afterwards doing things to the metal on the back and creating some extra holes all over, including in areas where I wouldn't expect any of the front fans actually moving any air.


----------



## hathornd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Believe yourselves if you want. You said it yourself, air goes where you push it. FANS push, they don't generate pressure to dictate where airflow goes to.


I agree with you, air does go where you push it. But to push it, you create pressure with the back and front side of the fan blades and the resultant pressure zones that each side creates as they cut through the air.

Fans exactly do generate pressure to dictate where airflow goes to. This is the reason they work.

And actually, consider this: Your fans only have to push more air than is capable of leaving your case to be pressurized. The 60L case, if the fans together were capable of generating 130 cfm, which there are Scythe fans that push 100 cfm with one fan, and Deltas that push 250 cfm with one fan so it's more than doable like you said, that 130 cfm mark is to change the air volume of the case in one second.

60 litres of flow per second = 127 cubic feet of flow per minute.

That is assuming your case is capable of leaking out ~60 litres of air in again, one second. No case is configured in this way, so you have 3 Deltas each introducing a conservative 120 cfm into the case, which that is considering flow obstruction due to fan grating and what-not (again, doable). That pushes the gross total to 360 cfm of incoming air. In order to be a zero-pressure situation, the case would have to exhaust or leak out ~170 litres per second. You add one exhaust fan running the same rating of 120 cfm (again, actual flow after obstructions). Still, the case has a net positive incoming airflow of 240 cfm of air. In order for there to be a zero-pressure net rating inside the computer case, the case would have to be leaking out ~113 litres of air every second with no obstruction. This is not the case. A few cracks between your case's edge are not capable of smoothly leaking out the ~113 litres (almost twice the capacity of a mid tower) every second. So it has a bit of a supercharging effect on the exhaust fan.


----------



## hathornd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> It's just a different name for this "air gets pushed" stuff. The air moves because there's a "pressure" difference in the areas around the fan and Nature keeps things in balance. It's technically pressure if language is being used like you do in math.
> 
> *It's also perhaps not just technically a pressure difference* through playing around with language, I feel it might also be something real inside the whole inside space of the case or I'd have no explanation why all my dust problems are fixed after I rearranged fans despite afterwards doing things to the metal on the back and creating some extra holes all over, including in areas where I wouldn't expect any of the front fans actually moving any air.


It technically is just a pressure difference though. The cracks around the edge of your case pull air in from the outside when your net airflow is negatively balanced, and push air out when it is positively balanced.


----------



## hathornd

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Scythe fans are extremely noisy even if they push 100cfm. you must ALSO deduct that from the exhaust fans.


I did that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> The sort of fans people use have a net output airflow of 30CFM (Referring to a SP120) after filters and mesh AT FULL SPEED. Nah, us don't even use close to full rpm.


If people have 3-4 intakes running 30 cfm, that ends up being a gross intake of ~120 cfm of air. Add an exhaust fan and it subtracts 30 cfm, making it ~90 cfm. And there are a lot of computer users who don't use fan controllers. A lot. These people don't have potentiometer-like control over the voltage going to their fans. They just run. And in the 60 litre case situation, that ~90 cfm isn't adequate to produce pressure, but only if EVERY drop of airflow that is created is able to make its way out of the case obstruction-free. If you measure out and number-crunch all the 2d areas of leakage out and then imagine pushing 90 cfm of air out of them, then you can imagine how an increase of pressure is possible.

EDIT: Again, not talking about 20 psi. Maybe .1 psi, which qualifies as real pressure.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Your math have no absolute bearing on real-world usage. Nobody uses 120CFM fans in their rigs for real.


I believe (now, my opinion) it absolutely has bearing on the real world. I ran high-volume air cooling on my case with 2 2200 rpm Slipstreams, both rated at about 110 cfm, on intake. My case is a mid tower. So my math applies directly to my air-cooling situation.


----------



## AMW1011

Hey Dave, if you have a moment from this asinine argument they're trying to make. Do you think the quality of exhaust fans is all that important? If I have good quality Deltas as my intakes and a good fan controller to tame them, then can I get away with cheaper fans for my exhaust, say the $6 Antec Tricools with their ~60 real world CFM and 1-1.5 mmhg real world static pressure? Also, is this configuration effective or is the topmost intake fan useless?:



Thanks bud.


----------



## doyll

If you don't want this sort of discussions, you need to be truthful statements instead of unsupported opinions.

Size of case really has very little to do with how much airflow is needed. How much air the components use is the issue. We need more air flowing through the case than the components use.
If we have a CPU cooler that has two 70cfm fans in push/pull that's 70cfm
If we have a GPU cooler with three 40cfm fans side by side that's 120cfm.
Components use a total of 190cfdm at full speed.
Case fans need to flow more than 190cfm or there is no way the coolers can get enough cool air.. meaning they hae to re-sue their own heated exhaust air.

My Define R2 has only 110% case fan cfm to component fan cfm, but I suggest 130%-150% case fan cfm to component cfm.

But how much case airflow to component airflow is only part of it. Flowing component heated exhaust out of case without it warming up the cool air flowing to component is very critical. The better this is done the cooler everything is.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> Hey Dave, if you have a moment from this asinine argument they're trying to make. Do you think the quality of exhaust fans is all that important? If I have good quality Deltas as my intakes and a good fan controller to tame them, then can I get away with cheaper fans for my exhaust, say the $6 Antec Tricools with their ~60 real world CFM and 1-1.5 mmhg real world static pressure? Also, is this configuration effective or is the topmost intake fan useless?:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks bud.


I can't be bothered to reply to their posts anymore.
Actually yes. The top most fans are pretty useless

Otherwise, that is the sort of setup people think provides positive pressure and sort of raises my points but I can't be bothered to argue with these commoners.

I'm here to help not argue points


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Don't bother with 140mm. I've been very dissapointed with most of them. There aren't any cheap delta 140x25 (I'm not even sure if they exist)
> Arc Midi R2 has a lame excuse for a filter right? - A foam filter that is
> I got a few new deltas and i don't experience ticking issues anymore ... Strange. I tested my FFB again and it doesn't exhibit that. Again very strange
> 
> Here's some help :
> AFB - standard 7-blade no stator air foil, highest CFM but the most dispersed airflow of any delta.
> FFB - 9-blade with stator air foil, a lil higher noise per CFM
> WFB - 7-leaf ish blades, lower static pressure but in the end AFB fans outperform them. Only benefit is their low, low price
> EFB (Rare) - 3 blade very steep curve. AFB fans outperform them and their design is a bit long in the tooth already, only nice for their sweet tone
> PFB (Rare) - 11 blade Doesn't have the whine the FFB fans have but of course aren't as focused as the FFB series are, quieter and nicer tone
> AUB (Rare) - Are actually AFB fans spec-wise but are a bit strange. Acoustically like AFB fans but i'm not too sure
> The other series are not within our concern
> Then here's the naming strategy - like for example AFB1224M
> AFB is the series, 12 is the size 24 is the volts, like 24v. M means the speed rating. 25mm thick fans don't have any lettering behind them but 38mm thick fans are written with a E behind, 32mm are F and 28mm are N


Which of these has the best static pressure to noise ratio? And does the stator make a huge difference performance-wise? The airflow is very "focused" yes (with stator), but does it make a huge difference? I kind of wish they made a low speed version of the FFB fan.

The only "good" 140mm fans are the San Ace 140mm, which cost a lot per fan.

http://www.sanyodenki.com/archive/document/product/cooling/catalog_pdf/San_Ace_140L38_E.pdf


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Which of these has the best static pressure to noise ratio? And does the stator make a huge difference performance-wise? The airflow is very "focused" yes (with stator), but does it make a huge difference? I kind of wish they made a low speed version of the FFB fan.
> 
> The only "good" 140mm fans are the San Ace 140mm, which cost a lot per fan.
> 
> http://www.sanyodenki.com/archive/document/product/cooling/catalog_pdf/San_Ace_140L38_E.pdf


It's got to be the AFB. Oh it does only in some cases. Same ... but I use PWM on them anyway.

They cost a bomb to be perfectly honest.


----------



## CrazyElf

Yeah the AFB seems like the best one. Interesting that it out-performs the other versions, even the ones with stator vanes in raw statistics. Perhaps PQ curve comparisons are needed.

- The PFB is the later revision of the FFB and it still gets outperformed by the AFB.
- Even the high static pressure PFR versions are outperformed.

I wonder why the AFB comes up so good? What makes it have so good performance relative to the noise generated? Blade design? Or something else? And does the fact that it has no stator actually help push the raw numbers up?

Any idea where you get a few low speed AFBs? AFB1212LE is the 2000 rpm version. Relatively low noise and can be down-volted.

Another possibility is the Nidec G1238B for very powerful fans. Check it out:
http://www.nidecamerica.com/g1238b/g1238b.htm

This may be among the most powerful 120mm fans around.


----------



## DaveLT

It's got really thick blades and are extremely sharp. Any other explanation ... I don't have. The shroud design is a bit special though. Stator fans usually make more noise than their non-stator brothers at a given airflow and static pressure. IIRC.

I got me AFB1212L.

Nah that isn't. The Delta THA1248BE is.


----------



## CrazyElf

Yeah I suspect you may be right. Thicker blades do better. Perhaps that's one reason why many consumer fans with their thin blades do not do so well.

That THA fan seems to have an even higher RPM than the Nidecs. I wonder how a slower version would stack up to the AFB series. Hmm ...

Yeah I think I'm going order those low speed 2000 rpm Delta AFBs, although I gotta find a good place to buy them. Some of the vendors don't always deliver the parts that you ordered.


----------



## AMW1011

Found a good price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-AFB1212L-120mm-Desktop-Computer-Case-2-Ball-Bearing-Fan-Cooler-/141066872013


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Yeah I suspect you may be right. Thicker blades do better. Perhaps that's one reason why many consumer fans with their thin blades do not do so well.
> 
> That THA fan seems to have an even higher RPM than the Nidecs. I wonder how a slower version would stack up to the AFB series. Hmm ...
> 
> Yeah I think I'm going order those low speed 2000 rpm Delta AFBs, although I gotta find a good place to buy them. Some of the vendors don't always deliver the parts that you ordered.


Thick blades increase static pressure at the cost of noise, not a bad thing since AFBs have really incredibly well designed blades.








higher speed fans never meant a more efficient fan. My PFR0812XHE is a hella lot louder than my TFB0812UHE but doesn't have 2x the airflow In fact with a 6.5dB increase it's only 30CFM more BUT 2x the static pressure .... that is a enormous amount of static pressure from a 80mm fan, 76.2mmH2O


----------



## jtom320

Just a quick question. I ended up going with afb1212h fans for my radiators. Did I do ok?

Also I have a 240 on top and in the front of a 350d both as intake with one of those deltas in the back as exhaust. Best wah to run them?


----------



## DaveLT

Those are great fans! Intake front and rear and exhaust top. Really isn't nice for your mobo to have heat being blasted at it


----------



## RnRollie

want some PWM controlled, high static pressure (almost 2" ) ?
http://www.sanyodenki.com/archive/document/product/cooling/catalog_pdf/San_Ace_120CR76_E.pdf


----------



## NFSxperts

Are there any major significance between the last letter of the AFB1212 fan series other than the amps difference (which I'm assuming is different max rpm)?
eg. AFB1212M, L, HH, VHE, HH-FOO, HE-ROO, SHE.

I finding the M versions the cheapest.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NFSxperts*
> 
> Are there any major significance between the last letter of the AFB1212 fan series other than the amps difference (which I'm assuming is different max rpm)?
> eg. AFB1212M, L, HH, VHE, HH-FOO, HE-ROO, SHE.
> 
> I finding the M versions the cheapest.


Fans with a last letter designation for example 'E' means it's a 38mm thick fan
-FOO means it has speed sensor but R00/OO is a stall sensor only.

Other than that the normal non-OEM delta speed ratings go like that :
L
M
H
HH
VH
SH
EH
GH
UH
DH
XH


----------



## DaveLT

Obviously, I have to show my fan collection someday. these are the fans that aren't in use.
http://www.overclock.net/g/i/2048849/my-biggest-fans/sort/display_order/


----------



## Tolec

Hi Dave,

I just bought a Scythe Slipstream for my AM3+ rig (illustrated below, pardon my Windows Paint skills) in a Corsair 200R.



The green boxes are possible fan placements.

The rig runs fine except that VRM is hot (max 72c). Where and how should I put it if I do not plan to buy more fans in the near future?

EDIT:
1 To install a second front fan I need to remount my HDD.
2 I don't have an extra dust filter at the moment so bottom intake may not be the best idea?
3 It's AM3+ so I can only make the CPU cooler blow upwards or downwards AFAIK.


----------



## DaveLT

I've seen peeps with Hyper TX3s that go front to back.
A top down GPU's fan does not blow downwards, it blows upwards leading into the direction of the rear exhaust fan.
In this config the top two fans shall be intakes. 1 side panel exhaust for the gpu area is enough.
If you don't have a filter don't bother with a bottom intake
HDD bay fan please too.


----------



## Tolec

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I've seen peeps with Hyper TX3s that go front to back.
> A top down GPU's fan does not blow downwards, it blows upwards leading into the direction of the rear exhaust fan.
> In this config the top two fans shall be intakes. 1 side panel exhaust for the gpu area is enough.
> If you don't have a filter don't bother with a bottom intake
> HDD bay fan please too.


Thanks!
The mb is AM3+ so I can only mount the CPU cooler as shown.
If I am only adding one fan (3 fans in total) where should I put it? Top intake? HDD bay intake?


----------



## Phenomanator53

Hey Dave, can you recommend a nice quiet fan for use in the front of my case? preferably an industrial fan that's quiet and makes no bearing 'grind'. P.S i have a Define Mini so the front is very very restricted.

Thanks mate.


----------



## RnRollie

a SanAce
25mm
https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/dc_fan_detail.php?master_id=2831
38mm
https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/dc_fan_detail.php?master_id=1637

A SUNON
25mm
http://www.sunon.com/tw/products/pdf/DCFAN/PMD12025.pdf
38mm
http://www.sunon.com/tw/products/pdf/DCFAN/PMD12038.pdf

ADDA
25mm
http://www.adda.com.tw/data/file/AG12025.pdf
38mm
http://www.adda.com.tw/data/file/AD12038GP.pdf

NMB
http://www.nmbtc.com/fans/part-numbers/search/4715VL-04W-B60-E00/6169


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Hey Dave, can you recommend a nice quiet fan for use in the front of my case? preferably an industrial fan that's quiet and makes no bearing 'grind'. P.S i have a Define Mini so the front is very very restricted.
> 
> Thanks mate.


Delta AFB1212L or AFB1212M
http://cwc-group.com/4710kl05wb30.html
http://cwc-group.com/afb1212lr00.html

Or you can buy from ebay.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tolec*
> 
> Thanks!
> The mb is AM3+ so I can only mount the CPU cooler as shown.
> If I am only adding one fan (3 fans in total) where should I put it? Top intake? HDD bay intake?


NOTE : I already checked AM3+ can be installed back to front.
http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo212/markfall/PC1_zps389efbb2.jpg
With a 8350 for reference.

I suggest you add 2 fans if you are even having a HDD in the bays. and another on the top


----------



## Tolec

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> NOTE : I already checked AM3+ can be installed back to front.
> http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo212/markfall/PC1_zps389efbb2.jpg
> With a 8350 for reference.
> 
> I suggest you add 2 fans if you are even having a HDD in the bays. and another on the top


Thanks again! Will test it when I get the new fans

EDIT: top front or top back?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tolec*
> 
> Thanks again! Will test it when I get the new fans
> 
> EDIT: top front or top back?


VRM area.


----------



## Phenomanator53

Thanks guys.









Edit: Do you know where i can buy those fans? the San Ace looks nice. and are Nidec fans good?

Thanks.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Thanks guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Do you know where i can buy those fans? the San Ace looks nice. and are Nidec fans good?
> 
> Thanks.


Of course yeah. where ... Digikey, frozencpu or cwc-group


----------



## Phenomanator53

Do they ship to Australia?

edit: they do but its way to expensive!!! looks like ill have to go around digging ebay.









Thanks anyway.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Do they ship to Australia?
> 
> edit: they do but its way to expensive!!! looks like ill have to go around digging ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks anyway.


ebay's the only way


----------



## Phenomanator53

Hey Dave, could you list some "common" industrial fans that i can find on ebay? the San Ace's and Delta's aren't really that popular on ebay.

Oh and BTW i found a Nidec Servo Gentle Typhoon lying round the house, is that a good fan? Its rated for only 0.083A but spins to around 1800RPM.

Thanks.


----------



## RnRollie

farnell.com , mouser.com , probably maplins.co.uk , maybe conrad.com , you know...... "professional & hobby electronics stores" there might even be a real brick & mortar one near you , (walk the yellow pages).

examples:

http://www2.mouser.com/Thermal-Management/Fans-Blowers/Fans/_/N-axga4?Keyword=fan&FS=True
http://www.newark.com/fans-blowers/prl/results

PS yes the GTs are good..;
hang on to them because they are no longer in production and will be worth a fortune soon if people dont smarten up to the fact that at this point the only valid alternative for a radiator fan is a Noiseblocker eLoop.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> farnell.com , mouser.com , probably maplins.co.uk , maybe conrad.com , you know...... "professional & hobby electronics stores" there might even be a real brick & mortar one near you , (walk the yellow pages).
> 
> examples:
> 
> http://www2.mouser.com/Thermal-Management/Fans-Blowers/Fans/_/N-axga4?Keyword=fan&FS=True
> http://www.newark.com/fans-blowers/prl/results
> 
> PS yes the GTs are good..;
> hang on to them because they are no longer in production and will be worth a fortune soon if people dont smarten up to the fact that at this point the only valid alternative for a radiator fan is a Noiseblocker eLoop.


The GTs are still in production from Nidec. Nah, in my mind it's definitely the AFB1212M


----------



## Dyaems

Dave, what is the "best" noise to performance ratio from Delta fan models? AFB series?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dyaems*
> 
> Dave, what is the "best" noise to performance ratio from Delta fan models? AFB series?


Yep. No other series comes even close


----------



## Phenomanator53

Alright thanks guys, BTW i found this weird looking Nidec with very wide blades on Aliexpress: LINK

pretty cheap and free shipping too.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Alright thanks guys, BTW i found this weird looking Nidec with very wide blades on Aliexpress: LINK
> 
> pretty cheap and free shipping too.


I bought that before but from china directly.


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Alright thanks guys, BTW i found this weird looking Nidec with very wide blades on Aliexpress: LINK
> 
> pretty cheap and free shipping too.


I just bought a few of the AFBs myself recently. Got them today, and they are... well they're delta so exactly as good as you would expect. Got 'em cheap from here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-AFB1212L-120mm-Desktop-Computer-Case-2-Ball-Bearing-Fan-Cooler-/141066872013


----------



## Phenomanator53

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I bought that before but from china directly.


Are they good? any weird bearing noises? They seem like a very nice"pressure" fan. Also do you think its possible to get them slow enough to under 1000RPM?









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> I just bought a few of the AFBs myself recently. Got them today, and they are... well they're delta so exactly as good as you would expect. Got 'em cheap from here:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-AFB1212L-120mm-Desktop-Computer-Case-2-Ball-Bearing-Fan-Cooler-/141066872013


That's cheap but its in the US and shipping isn't really viable for me


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Are they good? any weird bearing noises? They seem like a very nice"pressure" fan. Also do you think its possible to get them slow enough to under 1000RPM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's cheap but its in the US and shipping isn't really viable for me


Nope. definitely not


----------



## Phenomanator53

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Nope. definitely not


lol so are they good quality? im thinking of buying one for a CPU fan and PWM from the CPU fan socket should be able to control it right?

Also how are Delta's QFR series? more specifically THIS
THIS one looks nice as well


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> lol so are they good quality? im thinking of buying one for a CPU fan and PWM from the CPU fan socket should be able to control it right?
> 
> Also how are Delta's QFR series? more specifically THIS
> THIS one looks nice as well


Yup. How about this instead http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Delta-fan-AFB1212SH-12V-0-80A-Cooling-Fan-Good-Quality/754935819.html


----------



## Phenomanator53

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yup. How about this instead http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Delta-fan-AFB1212SH-12V-0-80A-Cooling-Fan-Good-Quality/754935819.html


Hmm, out of the QFR and the AFB, which one will be better for a radiator and which for case fan?

Edit: also noted that the AFB is rated for 4400RPM







can a normal CPU FAN header slow it down to sub-1000RPM?

Thanks again.


----------



## RnRollie

erm need to consult your MB manual/tech specs.

its a two parter

First: your MB must be able to support "full speed"

Most MB headers are rated 1 Amp, some are 2 Amp, but without having that in writing signed with the blood of the CEO i would not count on it.

Thus assume 1 Amp = 12 Watts
According to the advertised AFB1212SH it pulls 9.6 W... , when taking startup into account it might jump way much closer to 12W .. i would limit it to ONE fan per header









Second: apparently the min voltage for AFB1212SH is 7 volt which probably will not drop the RPMs below 1000, although you can probably go lower to 5 v or something. The question is if the fan will still start with only 5 volts

However.... if i compare the numbers advertised with the Delta Spec sheet... something doesn't match up, not the speed, not the power draw...
The number dont match neither the 120*25.5 or the 120*38

http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf
http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x38mm.pdf

And i kinda like to believe that the manufacturer has somewhat better info on the things he produces compared to a vendor from the Alibaba group.

Dave.. to you for more detailed insight









.


----------



## Phenomanator53

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> erm need to consult your MB manual/tech specs.
> 
> its a two parter
> 
> First: your MB must be able to support "full speed"
> 
> Most MB headers are rated 1 Amp, some are 2 Amp, but without having that in writing signed with the blood of the CEO i would not count on it.
> 
> Thus assume 1 Amp = 12 Watts
> According to the advertised AFB1212SH it pulls 9.6 W... , when taking startup into account it might jump way much closer to 12W .. i would limit it to ONE fan per header
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second: apparently the min voltage for AFB1212SH is 7 volt which probably will not drop the RPMs below 1000, although you can probably go lower to 5 v or something. The question is if the fan will still start with only 5 volts
> 
> However.... if i compare the numbers advertised with the Delta Spec sheet... something doesn't match up, not the speed, not the power draw...
> The number dont match neither the 120*25.5 or the 120*38
> 
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x38mm.pdf
> 
> Dave.. to you for more detailed insight


Im my mobo manual it says its rated for 1A. shouldn't the PWM function be able to adjust the speed of that Delta? that fan certainly looks like its possible.


----------



## RnRollie

well yeah , but
IF it matches the description, then you are not getting a WPM AFB1212SHE...
IF what drops in your mailbox matches the picture, if you really get a PWM AFB1212SHE delivered

....Then you just split the wires to run the power from a molex from the PSU, and plug the header with Tach & Signal onto the MB header
No MB amp/watts limits then. Easy enough to do also.. And.. you can "daisy chain" more as one fan then


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> well yeah , but
> IF it matches the description, then you are not getting a WPM AFB1212SHE...
> IF what drops in your mailbox matches the picture, if you really get a PWM AFB1212SHE delivered
> 
> ....Then you just split the wires to run the power from a molex from the PSU, and plug the header with Tach & Signal onto the MB header
> No MB amp/watts limits then. Easy enough to do also.. And.. you can "daisy chain" more as one fan then


There's often issues with that, so you have to be careful. A real PWM signal is pretty rare, often only on the CPU fan header, and the other fan headers really using voltage control despite looking like 4-pin.

EDIT: Here's an example about what I mean: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66283


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> erm need to consult your MB manual/tech specs.
> 
> its a two parter
> 
> First: your MB must be able to support "full speed"
> 
> Most MB headers are rated 1 Amp, some are 2 Amp, but without having that in writing signed with the blood of the CEO i would not count on it.
> 
> Thus assume 1 Amp = 12 Watts
> According to the advertised AFB1212SH it pulls 9.6 W... , when taking startup into account it might jump way much closer to 12W .. i would limit it to ONE fan per header
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second: apparently the min voltage for AFB1212SH is 7 volt which probably will not drop the RPMs below 1000, although you can probably go lower to 5 v or something. The question is if the fan will still start with only 5 volts
> 
> However.... if i compare the numbers advertised with the Delta Spec sheet... something doesn't match up, not the speed, not the power draw...
> The number dont match neither the 120*25.5 or the 120*38
> 
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x38mm.pdf
> 
> And i kinda like to believe that the manufacturer has somewhat better info on the things he produces compared to a vendor from the Alibaba group.
> 
> Dave.. to you for more detailed insight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


http://www.delta-americas.com/Products/FANUploads/Specification/AFB1212SH.pdf MAX STARTUP is 0.8A not 1A.

Use PWM or a PWM splitter if one is worried about power draw.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> There's often issues with that, so you have to be careful. A real PWM signal is pretty rare, often only on the CPU fan header, and the other fan headers really using voltage control despite looking like 4-pin.
> 
> EDIT: Here's an example about what I mean: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66283


As long as it's the CPU header and PWM is selected you don't have to be worried on older motherboards.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> There's often issues with that, so you have to be careful. A real PWM signal is pretty rare, often only on the CPU fan header, and the other fan headers really using voltage control despite looking like 4-pin.
> 
> EDIT: Here's an example about what I mean: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66283


^^^This
The liar called ASUS (CPU_OPT), is one of the reasons why i have an AsRock board with TWO REAL PWM channels.


----------



## Phenomanator53

Ignore, didnt post read properly


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Thats strange, my Gryphon Z87 CPU_OPT gives out the same PWM as my normal CPU_FAN.


Older ASUS boards usually are a bit strange. CPU_OPT usually is tied to CPU_FAN so you should only attempt to plug in 1 of the AFB1212SHs

Oh btw, I'm reviewing a Z97 Gryphon right now!


----------



## Phenomanator53

Is the Foxconn PV123812DSPF any good? Link HERE

Oh and i just remembered something interesting that i did a while ago, my PSU (Antec High Current Pro 750W) which is basically a Delta Electronics unit, used an ADDA 135mm PWM 4-pin fan but the bearing made an annoying whir all the time so i went on Aliexpress to look for a replacement and to my surprise, I found a Delta AFB1312M PWM instead, (Yes its an upsized AFB1212M PWM) so obviously i bought it and after installing it the system is now whisper silent.

just an interesting story i though i'd share. need pics just ask.


----------



## RnRollie

Isn't the foxconn a rebranded ADDA ?

Somebody must know


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> ^^^This
> The liar called ASUS (CPU_OPT), is one of the reasons why i have an AsRock board with TWO REAL PWM channels.
> 
> 
> 
> Which AsRock has the two separately controlled PWM channels? I've heard something about a MSI mATX or ITX board has two PWM controls too, but can't remember where.
Click to expand...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Is the Foxconn PV123812DSPF any good? Link HERE
> 
> Oh and i just remembered something interesting that i did a while ago, my PSU (Antec High Current Pro 750W) which is basically a Delta Electronics unit, used an ADDA 135mm PWM 4-pin fan but the bearing made an annoying whir all the time so i went on Aliexpress to look for a replacement and to my surprise, I found a Delta AFB1312M PWM instead, (Yes its an upsized AFB1212M PWM) so obviously i bought it and after installing it the system is now whisper silent.
> 
> just an interesting story i though i'd share. need pics just ask.


There's no specs or anything on it but no It's not an rebranded ADDA. I wouldn't buy a fan without specs.
I think I was the one you went to







Yes you were. LOL.

ADDAs seem to develop weird bearing noises after time not just on Seasonics.

Very strange that delta would use a ADDA in their own PSU. Won't be cheaper to use their own fans?


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Which AsRock has the two separately controlled PWM channels? I've heard something about a MSI mATX or ITX board has two PWM controls too, but can't remember where.


Are we going to go through this again?








P67 Fatality Pro
CPU_FAN1 (cpu_fan2 is voltage)
CHA_FAN1


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> There's no specs or anything on it but no It's not an rebranded ADDA. I wouldn't buy a fan without specs.
> I think I was the one you went to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you were. LOL.


welll, if you can find an UL-number on that Foxconn... one can find out... if the water's not too murky
BTW isn't DELL using these?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> ADDAs seem to develop weird bearing noises after time not just on Seasonics.
> 
> Very strange that delta would use a ADDA in their own PSU. Won't be cheaper to use their own fans?


Who knows what goes on with the Chinese & Taiwanese? What kind of honourable agreements they have?
(see water comment above)


----------



## Mopar63

Positive air flow is such an amazing thing.









My Caselabs Mercury S3 now has dual Fractal R2 140mm fans for intake in the front and the same in the top. That is 4x 140mm fans for intake. I then have a Water 2.0 Performer at the rear with a single 120 fan pulling air through the radiator for exhaust.

The system is VERY cool under load with the i7 4770 topping at 62C (stock speeds), the motherboard is topping at 40C and the Video card (290X VaporX) topping at 68C. All this BTW in a room at 28C ambient  The back of the case has a ton of air coming out of it, almost like a small box fan and the system is next to silent


----------



## Phenomanator53

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> There's no specs or anything on it but no It's not an rebranded ADDA. I wouldn't buy a fan without specs.
> I think I was the one you went to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you were. LOL.
> 
> ADDAs seem to develop weird bearing noises after time not just on Seasonics.
> 
> Very strange that delta would use a ADDA in their own PSU. Won't be cheaper to use their own fans?


Ah yeah i remembered i went to ask someone here for help but forgot who it was lol. glad we meet again.








I read somewhere that for delta it was actually cheaper to buy someone else's fans rather than use their own because they cost too mush to make. that's why in lower-mid end delta's you would find Adda's or yate loon's. PSU's such as the HCP-1000 Platinum use a delta fan but that's also a $350 PSU.

BTW how's MAGIC fans? this one looks pretty neat: LINK


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Are we going to go through this again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P67 Fatality Pro
> CPU_FAN1 (cpu_fan2 is voltage)
> CHA_FAN1


No way! You already showed me the error of my ways.








So it was you I was thinking of, but somehow thought it was an MSI board, not AsRock.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Ah yeah i remembered i went to ask someone here for help but forgot who it was lol. glad we meet again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read somewhere that for delta it was actually cheaper to buy someone else's fans rather than use their own because they cost too mush to make. that's why in lower-mid end delta's you would find Adda's or yate loon's. PSU's such as the HCP-1000 Platinum use a delta fan but that's also a $350 PSU.
> 
> BTW how's MAGIC fans? this one looks pretty neat: LINK


that one doesn't ring a bell, but i've seen the Magic brand in PSU's & GPU's... i think XFX had a love affair with them at some point









BTW, if you keep on browsing for THE-best-deal fans, yer gonna find yerself on the silk road and be buying fans from somebody who operates out the the trunk of his car


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> welll, if you can find an UL-number on that Foxconn... one can find out... if the water's not too murky
> BTW isn't DELL using these?
> Who knows what goes on with the Chinese & Taiwanese? What kind of honourable agreements they have?
> (see water comment above)


Yeah they do and they seem to have the same codename as the AFC1212DE 1.6A (Y4574A)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Ah yeah i remembered i went to ask someone here for help but forgot who it was lol. glad we meet again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read somewhere that for delta it was actually cheaper to buy someone else's fans rather than use their own because they cost too mush to make. that's why in lower-mid end delta's you would find Adda's or yate loon's. PSU's such as the HCP-1000 Platinum use a delta fan but that's also a $350 PSU.
> 
> BTW how's MAGIC fans? this one looks pretty neat: LINK


Protechnic isn't bad but their blades are very thin. Not good for static pressure.


----------



## Phenomanator53

Sorry for sending so much fans over but i found a GREAT deal for 2 San Ace's LINK


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Sorry for sending so much fans over but i found a GREAT deal for 2 San Ace's LINK


I bought many of those before I can say they are great fans but AFBs are even better








http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DELTA-Delta-AFB1212L-12025-DC-12v-0-21A/898413526.html


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Sorry for sending so much fans over but i found a GREAT deal for 2 San Ace's LINK


30mpa is not that fantastic
might be a good case fan ,not so good for radiators/heatsinks

beside, i'm always a bit weary when i cannot find the typenumber in sanyo's webcatalog
https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/cooling_dcfan.html


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> 30mpa is not that fantastic
> might be a good case fan ,not so good for radiators/heatsinks
> 
> beside, i'm always a bit weary when i cannot find the typenumber in sanyo's webcatalog
> https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/cooling_dcfan.html


San Aces usually have a different number outside of the catalog. M404 means it's a M-type and 404 something else LOL.
https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/dc_fan_detail.php?master_id=2410

It's a good rad fan, trust me. Not as good as a delta afb but it's a good fan


----------



## Phenomanator53

Is this Delta even going to push though anything? LINK


----------



## RnRollie

Most of these 3-blade fans are designed to move A LOT of air and some do at really high speeds, but they tend to be bad on static pressure. They are however, also VERY good at slicing fingers.

They make decent exhaust fans thou if there is no restriction.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> Is this Delta even going to push though anything? LINK


Nearly as good as the 9G san aces at pushing air! the san aces arebrilliant already. Frankly I'll rather have a AFB1212H
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Most of these 3-blade fans are designed to move A LOT of air and some do at really high speeds, but they tend to be bad on static pressure. They are however, also VERY good at slicing fingers.
> 
> They make decent exhaust fans thou if there is no restriction.


Not with delta. you didn't check the spec sheet.
http://www.delta-americas.com/products/FanUploads/L10/EFB102x25mm%20series.pdf


----------



## Anusha

i am looking for a radiator fan for my Antec Kuhler 620. but *i don't want to use a fan controller* and i *can't bear noise*. i am willing to go for push-pull if that's what's required to cool it down with low RPM fans. which fan(s) do you recommend?

currently have the rad mounted on top exhaust of the raven rv03. would not mind fitting it in the front drive bay with fans sucking cool air from the outside, if that makes a noticeable difference.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anusha*
> 
> i am looking for a radiator fan for my Antec Kuhler 620. but *i don't want to use a fan controller* and i *can't bear noise*. i am willing to go for push-pull if that's what's required to cool it down with low RPM fans. which fan(s) do you recommend?
> 
> currently have the rad mounted on top exhaust of the raven rv03. would not mind fitting it in the front drive bay with fans sucking cool air from the outside, if that makes a noticeable difference.


Delta AFB1212M PWM version Exhausting into the case is going to be a big mistake if you're going to do it that way btw.


----------



## Anusha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Delta AFB1212M PWM version Exhausting into the case is going to be a big mistake if you're going to do it that way btw.


I'm fine with exhaust. (But why would it be a mistake?)

Just that I think the noise would be too much. Would I run into any vibration issues or weird noise issues if i run it at a low RPM - say 1500RPM - with the onboard fan controller?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anusha*
> 
> I'm fine with exhaust. (But why would it be a mistake?)
> 
> Just that I think the noise would be too much. Would I run into any vibration issues or weird noise issues if i run it at a low RPM - say 1500RPM - with the onboard fan controller?


Exhausting INTO the case. At that point your GPU will heat up MUCH faster and be noisier.
No. 1500rpm is pretty quiet.


----------



## Phenomanator53

hey guys, im ready to order a fan now, but now i have 2 delta's to choose from. LINK this 38MM AFB or this LINK 25MM AFB? the Magic/protechnic looks like it will spin slow enough for me even though its a 38mm fan. Im also considering the Tri-Blade Delta aswell.

decisions decisions...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> hey guys, im ready to order a fan now, but now i have 2 delta's to choose from. LINK this 38MM AFB or this LINK 25MM AFB? the Magic/protechnic looks like it will spin slow enough for me even though its a 38mm fan. Im also considering the Tri-Blade Delta aswell.
> 
> decisions decisions...


38mm AFB only if you have the space. and certainly only 1 per header


----------



## Phenomanator53

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 38mm AFB only if you have the space. and certainly only 1 per header


But can the CPU fan PWM lower the speed down enough? i don't want a "Rough Typhoon" in my case









Oh and BTW found these beasts:


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> But can the CPU fan PWM lower the speed down enough? i don't want a "Rough Typhoon" in my case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and BTW found these beasts:










I think it can. These aren't beasts that can't be tamed. Great fans! the nmb 4715kl is a good fan


----------



## Anusha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phenomanator53*
> 
> hey guys, im ready to order a fan now, but now i have 2 delta's to choose from. LINK this 38MM AFB or this LINK 25MM AFB? the Magic/protechnic looks like it will spin slow enough for me even though its a 38mm fan. Im also considering the Tri-Blade Delta aswell.
> 
> decisions decisions...


is that a safe store to buy from?
they don't support PayPal. just credit cards and their own PayPal like thing.
i little bit worried about buying from them.


----------



## Phenomanator53

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anusha*
> 
> is that a safe store to buy from?
> they don't support PayPal. just credit cards and their own PayPal like thing.
> i little bit worried about buying from them.


I've bought from them before and so far I haven't been scammed yet.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anusha*
> 
> is that a safe store to buy from?
> they don't support PayPal. just credit cards and their own PayPal like thing.
> i little bit worried about buying from them.


They have pay back system (hopefully it works, i haven't been scammed before) and they generally have trustworthy sellers. Obviously you have to look at the ratings and the comments.

And also, I wouldn't rely on paypal all the time. got scammed by paypal themselves.


----------



## Anusha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They have pay back system (hopefully it works, i haven't been scammed before) and they generally have trustworthy sellers. Obviously you have to look at the ratings and the comments.
> 
> And also, I wouldn't rely on paypal all the time. got scammed by paypal themselves.


well, i was not worried about the individual sellers scamming me. just the system as a whole. i mean, they get to know our credit card number.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anusha*
> 
> well, i was not worried about the individual sellers scamming me. just the system as a whole. i mean, they get to know our credit card number.


Aliexpress does, the seller doesn't. Aliexpress and taobo is run by the biggest online conglomerate in china, alibaba.


----------



## Anusha

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Aliexpress does, the seller doesn't. Aliexpress and taobo is run by the biggest online conglomerate in china, alibaba.


guess then i would be alright.









just one question dave. temps and noise wise, is the Delta AFB1212M PWM @1500RPM better than the Gentle Typhoon AP14 at max 1450RPM? this is for the Kuhler 620 radiator. like I said, i would not mind going with two fans, if it allows me to lower the noise by lowering the RPM down to say 1200RPM. (assuming that two fans at 1200RPM is quieter than one at 1500RPM)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anusha*
> 
> guess then i would be alright.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just one question dave. temps and noise wise, is the Delta AFB1212M PWM @1500RPM better than the Gentle Typhoon AP14 at max 1450RPM? this is for the Kuhler 620 radiator. like I said, i would not mind going with two fans, if it allows me to lower the noise by lowering the RPM down to say 1200RPM. (assuming that two fans at 1200RPM is quieter than one at 1500RPM)


Not really all the time it will. the AFB has massive static pressure already and going with two fans will probably serve to make more noise than good
The delta won't be anywhere near as quiet but it will have a hell lot more airflow


----------



## nick779

Looking for some advice Dave.

I have a Corsair 300r, and have an assortment of fans.

I have 2 Rosewill Hyperbora 140s currently as intakes 1/2
A cougar 140mm 1200rpm fan I just got that was going to be #3 as an intake for my 780ti ACX but I may just use it as an exhaust at side panel 3 according to your guide.
A high rpm 120mm Yate Loon 2300rpm from an H60 that was at 4
2 scythe grand Flex Pwms that will probably be pulling on my new H105, it will also have the stock corsairs pushing

I have a 30w 6 channel fan controller that will controlling the grand flexs, the side panel fans and probably the yate with the new setup.

Im looking for some advice on what to place where to maintain positive pressure while maintaining minimal noise.



Heres what im thinking:

1 and 4 are the hyperboras running as intakes (considering setting 4 as an exhaust but I don't know what I should do)
2 will probably be the Yate Loon running as intake to push air further along the bottom
3 will be the cougar running as exhaust
5 will be the h105 with the stock Corsair fans on the inside acting as exhaust, and the grand flexes pulling from the outside.

I don't know whether id be better off going from front bottom to rear top or have intake on 1, 2, 4 and exhaust on 3, 5

What would you put and where? im open to relocating the stock h105 fans too, but like the idea of a push pull


----------



## RnRollie

this will help:
whatever you want to set as intake needs to have a filter
in most cases top-rear does not have a filter thus exhaust
in most cases side panel does not have a filter thus exhaust
if the roof comes with filters pre installed, then you can set them to intake

iow if it has a filter (pre-)installed, its a good intake candidate.

If you want to set up otherwise, then demciflex will get some of your business


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> this will help:
> whatever you want to set as intake needs to have a filter
> in most cases top-rear does not have a filter thus exhaust
> in most cases side panel does not have a filter thus exhaust
> if the roof comes with filters pre installed, then you can set them to intake
> 
> iow if it has a filter (pre-)installed, its a good intake candidate.
> 
> If you want to set up otherwise, then demciflex will get some of your business


I forgot to mention I bought filters too lol


----------



## Onyxian

Pretty difficult eh? This is the first rig I'm building and am trying to get things right. Going to move the fan on the top to the front. Then decide if I'm going to buy two more fans, one for the bottom and one for the side panel. What fans I'm going to get, and also have to see if the side panel fan will fit with the NH-D15.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty difficult eh? This is the first rig I'm building and am trying to get things right. Going to move the fan on the top to the front. Then decide if I'm going to buy two more fans, one for the bottom and one for the side panel. What fans I'm going to get, and also have to see if the side panel fan will fit with the NH-D15.



Do you need all the HDD cages? Remove them if at all possible for much better airflow.
Removing the unused PCI socket slot covers in back often improves cooling too.
Two good front intake, one bottom intake with case raised up so there is 35-40mm bottom clearance for airflow to bottom fans, and a rear exhaust will cool most systems very well.. especially if fans are PWM and speed controlled by using PWM signal from CPU fan header and sometimes GPU fan header.
Optimizing case cooling and controlling PWM case fans are first two links in sig.


----------



## Onyxian

I was going to remove the cage regardless since I figured it would improve airflow, but my video card wouldn't fit without me taking it out. Boy all these extra wires and adapters and stuff will make it way more difficult now.


----------



## doyll

You can do it simple if you want.


----------



## HandsomeChow

Dave, any recommendations on fan controllers?
Planning to buy the Aquaero 5 LT
Need some advice


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Dave, any recommendations on fan controllers?
> Planning to buy the Aquaero 5 LT
> Need some advice


For high speed fans?

I personally would use Lamptrons. The top ones can max out at 30W per channel x 6-8 channels. There's also a 50W x 4 channel one.

That Aquaero only does 1.65A I think judging by the specs (they make it confusing), which is ~20W. That's not enough to run many high speed fans.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Dave, any recommendations on fan controllers?
> Planning to buy the Aquaero 5 LT
> Need some advice


If you want USB control that's the only way to go. Other than that there are better options like the NZXT Sentry 3


----------



## HandsomeChow

Yeah I kind of want it to run autonomously and have fan graphs respond to temperatures in my case


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Yeah I kind of want it to run autonomously and have fan graphs respond to temperatures in my case


I believe the newest Z97 Sabertooth like the Z97 Gryphon have thermal probes that you can stick into the case from the motherboard so you can use speedfan's automatic control
Something to ponder if you don't want a new fan controller but a new mobo lel.

My only gripe with those 3 mobos are that they lack M.2 and in the case of the gryphon, the sata express too.


----------



## AMW1011

On a similar note: would an NZXT grid+ power 5-6 afb1212m/h's? I love the ability to change fan speed in NZXT's cam software and set fan profiles Technically, Delta rates the fans at drawing 4.2w maximum and the grid+ is rated to do 5w per channel, but I've always heard not use weak fan controllers with industrial fans.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> On a similar note: would an NZXT grid+ power 5-6 afb1212m/h's? I love the ability to change fan speed in NZXT's cam software and set fan profiles Technically, Delta rates the fans at drawing 4.2w maximum and the grid+ is rated to do 5w per channel, but I've always heard not use weak fan controllers with industrial fans.


NZXT Grid is literally just a fan splitter LOL. It has roughly the same PCBs as the fan splitters that come with NZXT cases so it should support them not a problem. If 4.2W can blow them up I don't know what won't.

If It does blow up hold NZXT responsible. I know in electronics that even the thinnest power trace can hold more than you think


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> NZXT Grid is literally just a fan splitter LOL. It has roughly the same PCBs as the fan splitters that come with NZXT cases so it should support them not a problem. If 4.2W can blow them up I don't know what won't.
> 
> If It does blow up hold NZXT responsible. I know in electronics that even the thinnest power trace can hold more than you think


Makes sense, the CAM software integration with the upcoming Grid+ looks excellent. they even plan to allow you to control your fans trough an upcoming phone app. I was taken aback by how reasonable the power requirements for Deltas are. I've always heard you need like 20w minimum per channel, but no remotely reasonable fan will draw half that much, I mean an afb1212vhe PEAKS at 10w. If you need more than that fan, you have serious trouble.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> Makes sense, the CAM software integration with the upcoming Grid+ looks excellent. they even plan to allow you to control your fans trough an upcoming phone app. I was taken aback by how reasonable the power requirements for Deltas are. I've always heard you need like 20w minimum per channel, but no remotely reasonable fan will draw half that much, I mean an afb1212vhe PEAKS at 10w. If you need more than that fan, you have serious trouble.


Yeah exactly


----------



## HandsomeChow

I considered the TUF series with their thermal radar 2 Software since I do own a Z77 Sabertooth. But I found out the inboard temp probes on the motherboard are inaccurate. During prime 95 load. Thermal radar said the CPU temp was 50 while realtemp displayed 60plus degrees.
I also need really detailed fan gradients which AI Suite 3 cannot provide
I like the temperature probes the TUF series provides but there are only three slots while the aquaero provides eight


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> No such thing as "high airflow" style fans, in open air yes but given my testing bench and typical usage they have non-existent airflow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why somebody has to produce a design like that


There is a design like that:
http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-x2000fn/

Being on of Lian LI's top aluminum chasis though, it's very expensive. The Lian Li X-2000 costs almost as much as a high end Case Labs case.

Anyways, there are other flaws with that case, namely that it is using 140mm fans.



There are also the Silverstone cases and in particular, the Raven series:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1342179/silverstone-raven-owners-club-gallery-rv01-rv02-rv02-e-rv03-rv04-rvz01/80

They are essentially cases rotated 90 degrees. Check out that thread.

Going to go ahead with that purchase this weekend of those AFB fans.

Another question, do you think that if the THA series were brought down to 2000 rpm that it would outperform the AFB series? Looking at the design and especially that massive fan hub, I think that it might, although the stator vanes at the back might direct airflow at the expense of noise.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> There is a design like that:
> http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-x2000fn/
> 
> Being on of Lian LI's top aluminum chasis though, it's very expensive. The Lian Li X-2000 costs almost as much as a high end Case Labs case.
> 
> Anyways, there are other flaws with that case, namely that it is using 140mm fans.
> 
> 
> 
> There are also the Silverstone cases and in particular, the Raven series:
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1342179/silverstone-raven-owners-club-gallery-rv01-rv02-rv02-e-rv03-rv04-rvz01/80
> 
> They are essentially cases rotated 90 degrees. Check out that thread.
> 
> Going to go ahead with that purchase this weekend of those AFB fans.
> 
> Another question, do you think that if the THA series were brought down to 2000 rpm that it would outperform the AFB series? Looking at the design and especially that massive fan hub, I think that it might, although the stator vanes at the back might direct airflow at the expense of noise.


Wow. So there actually is one. I would LOVE to see caselabs doing something like that though
Uh, no. a big fan hub is only there for a reason : stabilize it for high speed performance otherwise a big fan hub is detrimental to performance


----------



## doyll

Reason we don't see anyone but Silverstone with the 90 degree orientation is because they hold the patten on it.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Wow. So there actually is one. I would LOVE to see caselabs doing something like that though


It's as close as we're going to get.

There is another design very similar. The Corsair Air 540 series, which at under $130 USD is quite affordable.

http://www.corsair.com/en-ca/carbide-series-air-540-high-airflow-atx-cube-case

There's 2 sides, kind of like the Case Labs cases. The left side contains your components. The right side contains your PSU, HDD/SSD, and cables.





The 2x 140mm fans in front can be replaced by 3x 120mm. There are however, no bottom or side fans.

Technically some of the Case Labs double wide cases have a similar principle. I personally recommend though waiting to see their new "Gemini" series.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Uh, no. a big fan hub is only there for a reason : stabilize it for high speed performance otherwise a big fan hub is detrimental to performance


Ah that makes some sense then. Is it only the dead spot or is there anything else to be aware of? From my experiences, the larger the hub, generally the higher the static pressure.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Reason we don't see anyone but Silverstone with the 90 degree orientation is because they hold the patten on it.


What's interesting is that the vertical orientation doesn't actually make it that much better.

See here:
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Vertical-vs-Horizontal-Case-Cooling-89/page2

Some interesting reading material for you. Air goes where you push it, it would seem.

Totally off topic, but I've always wondered about water cooling. Look at the Lian Li case. Why is this done? The fan is used as intake, going through the radiator, then putting hot air into the case. Why not use the fans to face as exhaust then out of the case? Intuitively, you want hot air to go out of the case. I can only presume that such an arrangement would lead to a negative pressure case?


----------



## DaveLT

I'm not really a fan of the 540.
Static pressure is usually from the thickness of the blades.

Yes that's the problem. Negative pressure.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'm not really a fan of the 540.
> Static pressure is usually from the thickness of the blades.
> 
> Yes that's the problem. Negative pressure.


Doing a bit of reading, it looks like there is a relationship between high hub to tip ratios and static pressure:
http://www2.basf.us/PLASTICSWEB/displayanyfile?id=0901a5e180004891

To low a fan to tip ratio results in inferior performance, while too high a hub to tip ratio simply means a fan is more expensive and uses more energy. Higher hub to tip ratios generally need more blades to reach their optimal performance point.

Hub to tip ratio (r) = hub radius/ blade radius

Then the optimal number of blades is going to be:

Optimal = 6r / (1 - r)

So bigger fan hub can theoretically support a higher static pressure, but it needs more blades. I'd have to look again, but I would not be surprised if blade mass also played a role. Blade shape apparently does too.

Have you ever had any experience with the PFR series of fans?

On the subject of cases, what do you think about these horizontal Case Labs cases? It may be worth looking at the Mercury series, especially the Mercury S8.

Finally, yeah I can see the negative pressure being a dust issue as you said.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Doing a bit of reading, it looks like there is a relationship between high hub to tip ratios and static pressure:
> http://www2.basf.us/PLASTICSWEB/displayanyfile?id=0901a5e180004891
> 
> To low a fan to tip ratio results in inferior performance, while too high a hub to tip ratio simply means a fan is more expensive and uses more energy. Higher hub to tip ratios generally need more blades to reach their optimal performance point.
> 
> Hub to tip ratio (r) = hub radius/ blade radius
> 
> Then the optimal number of blades is going to be:
> 
> Optimal = 6r / (1 - r)
> 
> So bigger fan hub can theoretically support a higher static pressure, but it needs more blades. I'd have to look again, but I would not be surprised if blade mass also played a role. Blade shape apparently does too.
> 
> Have you ever had any experience with the PFR series of fans?
> 
> On the subject of cases, what do you think about these horizontal Case Labs cases? It may be worth looking at the Mercury series, especially the Mercury S8.
> 
> Finally, yeah I can see the negative pressure being a dust issue as you said.


Ah, never knew that. But if you look carefully high performance fans have a high blade tip to blade edge ratio (a thick blade edge on one end to a thin edge on the other) and also affected by the width of a blade, a fan with directional vanes usually have much less static pressure than one without.
What's the explanation of 1000 blades on "silence fans" either? That's because their blades are really really thin. Blade mass and blade shape definitely plays a BIG role, that's why different fans have better and better performance.
38mm FFB and AFB series NEEDS a big hub because they have a huge power draw at the most powerful model but it scales roughly, unless it's the Rev-C of the AFB in which it tails off at low speed performance and for the older non-rev-C they tail off at higher speeds

I do have the TFB and the PFR but they do NOT have low speed version of them. They're extremely powerful but also ... very loud. EAR shatteringly loud. Also PFC = PFR

But anyway, my PFR0812XHE has double the static pressure of my TFB0812UHE even though it's 5dBa louder and has about 30% more airflow.


----------



## nick779

Hey Dave, might want to give the Scythe Grand Flex PWM fans a look, ~600rpm to 2400rpm 4.5mm/h20 static pressure hydro dynamic bearing. I have two and theyre pretty sweet.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Hey Dave, might want to give the Scythe Grand Flex PWM fans a look, ~600rpm to 2400rpm 4.5mm/h20 static pressure hydro dynamic bearing. I have two and theyre pretty sweet.


Nope they're absolute rubbish and they're overrated once again.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Nope they're absolute rubbish and they're overrated once again.


What makes you say that? and compared to the CM Jetflo its clearly a better fan for the same amount of money


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> What makes you say that? and compared to the CM Jetflo its clearly a better fan for the same amount of money


He is right, SPCR did a review on them see here

For a comparison to other fans see here

As you can see they are pants


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> What makes you say that? and compared to the CM Jetflo its clearly a better fan for the same amount of money


Did you not read? They're overly overrated and CM Jetflos ACTUALLY exceed their stated performance plus Jetflos are as cheap as you can go for a proper fan

Aside from the fact that it's the only LED fan worth buying and only a dollar over those crappy grand flexes


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> What makes you say that? and compared to the CM Jetflo its clearly a better fan for the same amount of money
> 
> 
> 
> Did you not read? They're overly overrated and CM Jetflos ACTUALLY exceed their stated performance plus Jetflos are as cheap as you can go for a proper fan
> 
> Aside from the fact that it's the only LED fan worth buying and only a dollar over those crappy grand flexes
Click to expand...

I read about 30 pages of this thread, and besides your poor attitude, and lack of backing up any claim you make in this thread I'm beginning to see that the only thing that's overrated is your knowledge on fans.


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I read about 30 pages of this thread, and besides your poor attitude, and lack of backing up any claim you make in this thread I'm beginning to see that the only thing that's overrated is your knowledge on fans.


Since you ignored my post proving why DaveLT is right here is a nice table by SPCR showing why Scythe Grand Flex is bad



You can see the review of this fan: HERE

Here are some highlights of the SPCR review:
Quote:


> the PWM model had a clickiness at lower speeds that was completely absent in the 3-pin varieties.


Quote:


> Its extremely unusual design also apparently gave it a unique property. This is the only fan we've ever tested with a higher input than output airflow.


Quote:


> Despite or because of all its unusual design elements, the Grand Flex was disappointing. Its cooling proficiency was as lackluster as its sound quality. There are plenty of fans that sound terrible and perform well or vice versa, but the Grand Flex falls is closer to the negative side of the spectrum on both accounts.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> Since you ignored my post proving why DaveLT is right here is a nice table by SPCR showing why Scythe Grand Flex is bad
> 
> 
> 
> You can see the review of this fan: HERE
> 
> Here are some highlights of the SPCR review:


I saw the post but the graph only shows half the story. If you actually look at the graph, it rivals the top performing fans at 1100RPM and has a big headroom so I guess I dont see why its considered a bad fan except for its below average low rpm performance.



For a 2400 rpm fan I would expect poor performance under 1000rpm and mine dont click at all when going through a fan controller.

I had a page with the "leaf" shaped blade reviewed but I cant seem to find it. Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I read about 30 pages of this thread, and besides your poor attitude, and lack of backing up any claim you make in this thread I'm beginning to see that the only thing that's overrated is your knowledge on fans.




Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I saw the post but the graph only shows half the story. If you actually look at the graph, it rivals the top performing fans at 1100RPM and has a big headroom so I guess I dont see why its considered a bad fan except for its below average low rpm performance.
> 
> 
> 
> For a 2400 rpm fan I would expect poor performance under 1000rpm and mine dont click at all when going through a fan controller.
> 
> I had a page with the "leaf" shaped blade reviewed but I cant seem to find it. Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too.


Minimum speeds : 13% PWM @ 300RPM. This is bloody good man. It does stop below 13% PWM entirely though so beware of your fan settings
Maximum airflow under my new testing : 108CFM.

Maximum static pressure under new testing : 3mmH2O
Maximum noise not counting turbulence (Best avoid by leaving rpm below 2000) : 36.5dB

And absolutely NO ticking at any voltage.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*


How cute.

Im sure you can talk circles around me with deltas or sans ace fans, because I dont know a whole heck of alot about them, but when you throw claims out there and dont back it up with anything other than "because I said so" I have a problem with that.

Im here for the grand pursuit of information and I want to know the whys, not just no its a terrible product.

13% is pretty ridiculous, but I have no reason to have my fans that low, Im perfectly okay with 18-20db if I maintain the flow I want, Id love to get my hands on some 120mm x 25mm deltas, but none of the retailers that crimp ends on them seem to carry them, which is why I bought the flexes, plus the claimed 4.55mmH2O. Although I will say that I should have put 38mm fans to pull on my rad since I could have made them fit, but I didnt.


----------



## doyll

Don't waste your time Nick.


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I saw the post but the graph only shows half the story. If you actually look at the graph, it rivals the top performing fans at 1100RPM and has a big headroom so I guess I dont see why its considered a bad fan except for its below average low rpm performance.
> 
> For a 2400 rpm fan I would expect poor performance under 1000rpm and mine dont click at all when going through a fan controller.
> 
> I had a page with the "leaf" shaped blade reviewed but I cant seem to find it. Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too.


No it doesn't you are misreading the table. SPCR's Grand Flex fans that were PWM clicked and that is unacceptable in 2014 and 2400 RPM fan are not needed for normal users and high end users.

What does a fan with "leaf shaped" blades have to do with a Grand Flex? Answer is nothing the Grand Flex does not have the same blade design.

"high rpm optimized"
LOL and that basically means a fan that runs at a high speed, looks like the marketing is getting to you.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Im here for the grand pursuit of information and I want to know the whys, not just no its a terrible product.
> 
> 13% is pretty ridiculous, but I have no reason to have my fans that low, Im perfectly okay with 18-20db if I maintain the flow I want, Id love to get my hands on some 120mm x 25mm deltas, but none of the retailers that crimp ends on them seem to carry them, which is why I bought the flexes, plus the claimed 4.55mmH2O. Although I will say that I should have put 38mm fans to pull on my rad since I could have made them fit, but I didnt.


Its not terrible as a product as it works but compared to the rest of the fans in the market its sub par, as shown in the table.

Quoting static pressure doesn't show that the fan is good as it is practically useless spec, you need a P/Q curve to see that and that is what Deltas come with.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> No it doesn't you are misreading the table. SPCR's Grand Flex fans that were PWM clicked and that is unacceptable in 2014 and 2400 RPM fan are not needed for normal users and high end users.
> 
> What does a fan with "leaf shaped" blades have to do with a Grand Flex? Answer is nothing the Grand Flex does not have the same blade design.
> 
> "high rpm optimized"
> LOL and that basically means a fan that runs at a high speed, looks like the marketing is getting to you.
> Its not terrible as a product as it works but compared to the rest of the fans in the market its sub par, as shown in the table.
> 
> Quoting static pressure doesn't show that the fan is good as it is practically useless spec, you need a P/Q curve to see that and that is what Deltas come with.


I was going to compare the output of that delta to a grand flex or similar fan because I dont believe that high rpm fan can rival the performance of a fan designed for low rpm at the same rpm, the "leaf" delta included.

"Its not terrible as a product as it works but compared to the rest of the fans in the market its sub par, as shown in the table."
At lower rpms, I doubt a delta designed for ~2500rpm would do too well below 1000rpm either.

Edit: Thats a nice static pressure guide you have on your sig mam72


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I was going to compare the output of that delta to a grand flex or similar fan because I dont believe that high rpm fan can rival the performance of a fan designed for low rpm at the same rpm, the "leaf" delta included.
> 
> At lower rpms, I doubt a delta designed for ~2500rpm would do too well below 1000rpm either.


What empirical evidence do you have of that? The SPCR review for example does not show that happening at all. Neither do Martin's tests. If you bring it down to 1500 rpm, a Delta 38mm thick AFB series will outperform most 25mm consumer grade fans spinning at 1500 rpm in terms of air moved versus noise. If you put a CPU cooler or restriction behind it, the performance lead the AFB has will be even bigger.

Impeller shape does however have in impact on:

- Static pressure
- Dead zones
- Certain frequency of noise
- A well optimized impeller will give better air moved:noise ratio

See here:
http://www.ijmse.org/Volume2/Issue5/paper5.pdf

But as far as "optimization for low rpms", it sounds more like marketing material than anything else.

Static pressure is another variable. You get everything from centrifugal fans (very high static pressure but lower air volume moved) to vane axial fans (moderate static pressure and moderate airflow) to propeller fans (low static pressure but high air moved).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> Its not terrible as a product as it works but compared to the rest of the fans in the market its sub par, as shown in the table.
> 
> Quoting static pressure doesn't show that the fan is good as it is practically useless spec, you need a P/Q curve to see that and that is what Deltas come with.


There is one other variable. Cost.

http://www.amazon.com/SCYTHE-Scythe-Grand-SM1225GF12SH-P-120mm/dp/B00JXCIWQK

These are selling for Gentle Typhoon prices - only they are not delivering Gentle Typhoon-like performance. In that regard, they are a fail.

Edit:
Non PWM version seems to be cheaper:
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/23165/fan-1299/Scythe_Grand_Flex_120mm_Sealed_Precision_FDB_Fan_-_2000_RPM_SM1225GF12H.html

Still not a great value though. The other issue is that they are FDB bearing. Don't use them horizontally or their lifespan will be cut short. The Gentle Typhoons were 2-ball bearings. Most industrial fans are also 2-ball bearing.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> What empirical evidence do you have of that? The SPCR review for example does not show that happening at all. Neither do Martin's tests. If you bring it down to 1500 rpm, a Delta 38mm thick AFB series will outperform most 25mm consumer grade fans spinning at 1500 rpm in terms of air moved versus noise. If you put a CPU cooler or restriction behind it, the performance lead the AFB has will be even bigger.
> 
> Impeller shape does however have in impact on:
> 
> - Static pressure
> - Dead zones
> - Certain frequency of noise
> - A well optimized impeller will give better air moved:noise ratio
> 
> See here:
> http://www.ijmse.org/Volume2/Issue5/paper5.pdf
> 
> But as far as "optimization for low rpms", it sounds more like marketing material than anything else.
> 
> Static pressure is another variable. You get everything from centrifugal fans (very high static pressure but lower air volume moved) to vane axial fans (moderate static pressure and moderate airflow) to propeller fans (low static pressure but high air moved).
> There is one other variable. Cost.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/SCYTHE-Scythe-Grand-SM1225GF12SH-P-120mm/dp/B00JXCIWQK
> 
> These are selling for Gentle Typhoon prices - only they are not delivering Gentle Typhoon-like performance. In that regard, they are a fail.
> 
> Edit:
> Non PWM version seems to be cheaper:
> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/23165/fan-1299/Scythe_Grand_Flex_120mm_Sealed_Precision_FDB_Fan_-_2000_RPM_SM1225GF12H.html
> 
> Still not a great value though. The other issue is that they are FDB bearing. Don't use them horizontally or their lifespan will be cut short. The Gentle Typhoons were 2-ball bearings. Most industrial fans are also 2-ball bearing.


First off, im comparing 25mm fans. I never said I had evidence for the Delta performing poorly at low rpms, I said I was looking for the review and couldnt find it to compare to. If you look at the chart, the Grand Flex Pwm ties 2nd place for temps with the Noiseblocker B12-PS at the same noise level according to SPCR, and still has headroom.

And we cant compare the GTs to anything anymore because they arent even made anymore, theyre actually selling for around $30-50 on amazon and ebay right now for whats left


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I said I was looking for the review and couldnt find it to compare to. If you look at the chart, the Grand Flex Pwm ties 2nd place for temps with the Noiseblocker B12-PS at the same noise level according to SPCR, and still has headroom.


No it doesn't. Do you even know how to read the table.

If we just look at the best cooling, then that would go to the Gentle Typhoon AP14 or the Noiseblocker B12-PS.

For the SPL of 12 the quietest the Grand Flex can be, the best cooling is the e-loop (this surprised me) followed by the GT. The Grand Flex is not even in the top 10 of the best fans.

Talk about trying to justify your purchase. Or trolling


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> First off, im comparing 25mm fans. I never said I had evidence for the Delta performing poorly at low rpms, I said I was looking for the review and couldnt find it to compare to. If you look at the chart, the Grand Flex Pwm ties 2nd place for temps with the Noiseblocker B12-PS at the same noise level according to SPCR, and still has headroom.
> 
> And we cant compare the GTs to anything anymore because they arent even made anymore, theyre actually selling for around $30-50 on amazon and ebay right now for whats left


A few things. First of all, a lot of us have AP15s and other Gentle Typhoons still. Second, 38mm will generally trump 25mm, especially over 1500 rpm in terms of static pressure for a given decibel level. But why only compare 25mm fans? What are you using them for where a 38mm is too thick? CPU coolers can take 38mm fans. They can also be used as case fans. Only when clearance is an issue should we worry about 25mm fans.

And even in that case where we have 25mm thick limits, we will compare it to these 25mm Delta fans:
http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf

Edit:
Finally you claimed that there were fans optimized for certain speeds. Your words, not mine.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I had a page with the "leaf" shaped blade reviewed but I cant seem to find it. Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> No it doesn't. Do you even know how to read the table.
> 
> If we just look at the best cooling, then that would go to the Gentle Typhoon AP14 or the Noiseblocker B12-PS.
> 
> For the SPL of 12 the quietest the Grand Flex can be, the best cooling is the e-loop (this surprised me) followed by the GT. The Grand Flex is not even in the top 10 of the best fans.
> 
> Talk about trying to justify your purchase. Or trolling


I don't think he read the table - at all.

But yes, I am forced to agree that he is trying to justify his purchase. He hasn't given any reason why 25.4 mm should be the limit. He has not given any other evidence as to why he thinks his fans are better. Finally, he has even bothered to read our evidence.

On that note, if you want to listen to the audio profile of this fan:





See here too:
http://www.coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/ventole/1310-recensione-scythe-grand-flex-800-1600-e-1900-rpm.html?showall=&start=6

That link should provide you with everything you need to know. PQ curves and air flow for a given decibel, along with air flow to rpm.


----------



## mam72

I have never been to keen on their testing methods, but it is far better than the other websites and youtube channels have done.


----------



## DaveLT

Just ask ehume, he tested Jetflos as well.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> First off, im comparing 25mm fans. I never said I had evidence for the Delta performing poorly at low rpms, I said I was looking for the review and couldnt find it to compare to. If you look at the chart, the Grand Flex Pwm ties 2nd place for temps with the Noiseblocker B12-PS at the same noise level according to SPCR, and still has headroom.
> 
> And we cant compare the GTs to anything anymore because they arent even made anymore, theyre actually selling for around $30-50 on amazon and ebay right now for whats left
> 
> 
> 
> A few things. First of all, a lot of us have AP15s and other Gentle Typhoons still. Second, 38mm will generally trump 25mm, especially over 1500 rpm in terms of static pressure for a given decibel level. But why only compare 25mm fans? What are you using them for where a 38mm is too thick? CPU coolers can take 38mm fans. They can also be used as case fans. Only when clearance is an issue should we worry about 25mm fans.
> 
> And even in that case where we have 25mm thick limits, we will compare it to these 25mm Delta fans:
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf
> 
> Edit:
> Finally you claimed that there were fans optimized for certain speeds. Your words, not mine.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I had a page with the "leaf" shaped blade reviewed but I cant seem to find it. Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> No it doesn't. Do you even know how to read the table.
> 
> If we just look at the best cooling, then that would go to the Gentle Typhoon AP14 or the Noiseblocker B12-PS.
> 
> For the SPL of 12 the quietest the Grand Flex can be, the best cooling is the e-loop (this surprised me) followed by the GT. The Grand Flex is not even in the top 10 of the best fans.
> 
> Talk about trying to justify your purchase. Or trolling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think he read the table - at all.
> 
> But yes, I am forced to agree that he is trying to justify his purchase. He hasn't given any reason why 25.4 mm should be the limit. He has not given any other evidence as to why he thinks his fans are better. Finally, he has even bothered to read our evidence.
> 
> On that note, if you want to listen to the audio profile of this fan:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See here too:
> http://www.coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/ventole/1310-recensione-scythe-grand-flex-800-1600-e-1900-rpm.html?showall=&start=6
> 
> That link should provide you with everything you need to know. PQ curves and air flow for a given decibel, along with air flow to rpm.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link. Call me crazy but it doesn't look bad from the link, just overrated static pressure which is a given with most consumer fans.

And I did look at the graph and read most of the article, I just went ADHD on the graph and misread the graph over and over, kind of like how you twist my opinions or thoughts and say that I'm calling them facts. My cases intake is limited to 25mm in the front and my rad wouldn't benefit from it as the pump/waterblock is the issue.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Thanks for that link. Call me crazy but it doesn't look bad from the link, just overrated static pressure which is a given with most consumer fans.


As you wish. I will call you "crazy" then.

Let's see now, here are the specs for the Scythe fan (39.5 db at 2400 rpm; Scythe specs are generally trustworthy from my experiences):
http://www.scythe-eu.com/en/products/fans/grand-flex-pwm.html

Seeing that we have ourselves a PQ curve too from the review:


Now we have a Delta AFB 120x25.4mm fan spinning at 2500 rpm, delivering 38.5db (again industrial fan suppliers generally give pretty reliable specs):
http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf

They also have a PQ curve in the PDF I linked.

I want you to take the time to overlay the PQ curve of the Delta AFB fan at 2500 rpm (38.5 db) to that of the Scythe Grand Flex at 2400 rpm (39.5 db). You'll find the Grand Flex vastly outperformed. In fact, it is a massive performance advantage in favor of the AFB fan. It'd be even bigger an advantage if the Delta AFB were spinning a bit faster (say 2550ish rpm, at which point the sound pressure levels would be equal).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> And I did look at the graph and read most of the article, I just went ADHD on the graph and misread the graph over and over, kind of like how you twist my opinions or thoughts and say that I'm calling them facts. My cases intake is limited to 25mm in the front and my rad wouldn't benefit from it as the pump/waterblock is the issue.


Your radiator will benefit from a better fan, no matter what the quality of your other parts are.

I stand by what I said. You were attempted to argue that certain fans were "high rpm optimized" and as such, could not possibly be as good at medium to low rpm fans. Rather than admit that you have no evidence of such (and that the other person does have evidence refuting your claim), you are now accusing me of "twisting" (again your words and not mine) what you said.

Again, for your reference:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> For a 2400 rpm fan I would expect poor performance under 1000rpm and mine dont click at all when going through a fan controller.
> 
> I had a page with the "leaf" shaped blade reviewed but I cant seem to find it. Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too.


Are you telling me you did not say this?

Likewise, are you saying that you did not attempt to argue the finer points of the SPCR review? I stand by what I said.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> As you wish. I will call you "crazy" then.
> 
> Let's see now, here are the specs for the Scythe fan (39.5 db at 2400 rpm; Scythe specs are generally trustworthy from my experiences):
> http://www.scythe-eu.com/en/products/fans/grand-flex-pwm.html
> 
> Seeing that we have ourselves a PQ curve too from the review:
> 
> 
> Now we have a Delta AFB 120x25.4mm fan spinning at 2500 rpm, delivering 38.5db (again industrial fan suppliers generally give pretty reliable specs):
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf
> 
> They also have a PQ curve in the PDF I linked.
> 
> I want you to take the time to overlay the PQ curve of the Delta AFB fan at 2500 rpm (38.5 db) to that of the Scythe Grand Flex at 2400 rpm (39.5 db). You'll find the Grand Flex vastly outperformed. In fact, it is a massive performance advantage in favor of the AFB fan. It'd be even bigger an advantage if the Delta AFB were spinning a bit faster (say 2550ish rpm, at which point the sound pressure levels would be equal).
> Your radiator will benefit from a better fan, no matter what the quality of your other parts are.
> 
> I stand by what I said. You were attempted to argue that certain fans were "high rpm optimized" and as such, could not possibly be as good at medium to low rpm fans. Rather than admit that you have no evidence of such (and that the other person does have evidence refuting your claim), you are now accusing me of "twisting" (again your words and not mine) what you said.
> 
> Again, for your reference:
> Are you telling me you did not say this?
> 
> Likewise, are you saying that you did not attempt to argue the finer points of the SPCR review? I stand by what I said.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> As you wish. I will call you "crazy" then.
> 
> Let's see now, here are the specs for the Scythe fan (39.5 db at 2400 rpm; Scythe specs are generally trustworthy from my experiences):
> http://www.scythe-eu.com/en/products/fans/grand-flex-pwm.html
> 
> Seeing that we have ourselves a PQ curve too from the review:
> 
> 
> Now we have a Delta AFB 120x25.4mm fan spinning at 2500 rpm, delivering 38.5db (again industrial fan suppliers generally give pretty reliable specs):
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf
> 
> They also have a PQ curve in the PDF I linked.
> 
> I want you to take the time to overlay the PQ curve of the Delta AFB fan at 2500 rpm (38.5 db) to that of the Scythe Grand Flex at 2400 rpm (39.5 db). You'll find the Grand Flex vastly outperformed. In fact, it is a massive performance advantage in favor of the AFB fan. It'd be even bigger an advantage if the Delta AFB were spinning a bit faster (say 2550ish rpm, at which point the sound pressure levels would be equal).
> Your radiator will benefit from a better fan, no matter what the quality of your other parts are.
> 
> I stand by what I said. You were attempted to argue that certain fans were "high rpm optimized" and as such, could not possibly be as good at medium to low rpm fans. Rather than admit that you have no evidence of such (and that the other person does have evidence refuting your claim), you are now accusing me of "twisting" (again your words and not mine) what you said.
> 
> Again, for your reference:
> Are you telling me you did not say this?
> 
> Likewise, are you saying that you did not attempt to argue the finer points of the SPCR review? I stand by what I said.


The delta has a pressure edge and the grand flex has a cfm edge. although for the sound level and pressure id rather have the delta.

My cpu temps dont change at all whether the flex is at 30% or at 100% even with a big change in airflow with the fan sealed against the radiator with RTV.

I said I couldnt believe that a fan was good across the board, and I was wrong, ill give you that. but I never said that everything I said was a fact because its not. Saying " Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too" isnt saying this is a fact prove me otherwise. Its me stating an opinion...


----------



## DaveLT

Scythe are known for over-blowing their specs if the fan is from them.
Let me make it clear that the GT-series is from NIDEC. Not them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> The delta has a pressure edge and the grand flex has a cfm edge. although for the sound level and pressure id rather have the delta.
> 
> My cpu temps dont change at all whether the flex is at 30% or at 100% even with a big change in airflow with the fan sealed against the radiator with RTV.
> 
> I said I couldnt believe that a fan was good across the board, and I was wrong, ill give you that. but I never said that everything I said was a fact because its not. Saying " Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too" isnt saying this is a fact prove me otherwise. Its me stating an opinion...


Grand flex fans are rubbish. PERIOD.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Scythe are known for over-blowing their specs if the fan is from them.
> Let me make it clear that the GT-series is from NIDEC. Not them.
> Grand flex fans are rubbish. PERIOD.


So in this case you would even take the jetflo's?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> So in this case you would even take the jetflo's?


What? Obviously I would. Half the price of any comparable fans unlike the crappy grand flexes. Look, if the grand flex was half the price, no issue. But this is supposedly their "new gentle typhoon" and it clearly isn't.

Oh, my AFB1212H will blow your grand flexes to hell and beyond.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> So in this case you would even take the jetflo's?
> 
> 
> 
> What? Obviously I would. Half the price of any comparable fans unlike the crappy grand flexes. Look, if the grand flex was half the price, no issue. But this is supposedly their "new gentle typhoon" and it clearly isn't.
> 
> Oh, my AFB1212H will blow your grand flexes to hell and beyond.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'll order one just to see if there's a difference. Can't hurt to try.

And I'm waiting for the right seller and I may buy a few of those as well.

Edit: the price is pretty close, the Jetflo black is $15 on amazon and the grand flex is $18.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> The delta has a pressure edge and the grand flex has a cfm edge. although for the sound level and pressure id rather have the delta.


In open air, maybe. Against anything with a restriction (ex: a radiator or a CPU cooler), the Delta will win. But fans are never used for open air. Even as a case fan, they may have to blow through fan filters, hard drive cages, or the hex mesh that is used on cases.

Also, if you care to compare 38mm fans, the AFB1212ME increases the gap a bit more. Always go with the 38mm where space allows.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> My cpu temps dont change at all whether the flex is at 30% or at 100% even with a big change in airflow with the fan sealed against the radiator with RTV.


Disagree.

Past about ~1500 rpm, higher rpms give diminishing returns. Try running something like Intel Burn Test on your CPU at 30% fan speed for ~1 hour at maximum then at 100% fan speed for ~1 hour at maximum. The 100% fan speed will be a few degrees about cooler.

It's diminishing returns, but there are still returns.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I said I couldnt believe that a fan was good across the board, and I was wrong, ill give you that. but I never said that everything I said was a fact because its not. Saying " Id be willing to bet that they would exhibit the same flow characteristics as the flex since theyre a high rpm optimized fan too" isnt saying this is a fact prove me otherwise. Its me stating an opinion...


I suppose the most appropriate response would be:

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred""
- Charles Prestwich Scott
Appears on the Guardian in the UK


----------



## nick779

Well, were going to see what happens found an AFB1212h on ebay for $9.50 new so ill compare it to my cheapo 2300rpm yate loon and a grand flex.

So I guess while were here, on the low sound spectrum, what would you recommend to replace 140mm hyperboras that top out at around 18db and claim 88cfm and 2.94mmH20


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Well, were going to see what happens found an AFB1212h on ebay for $9.50 new so ill compare it to my cheapo 2300rpm yate loon and a grand flex.
> 
> So I guess while were here, on the low sound spectrum, what would you recommend to replace 140mm hyperboras that top out at around 18db and claim 88cfm and 2.94mmH20


The YLs and grand flexes are no competition for deltas, there's a reason why they're NO-NONSENSE industrial fans

Those are a even bigger heap of lies.

They might be 18db but they don't even get close to 88cfm or 2.94mmH2O, 1mmH2O is more likely and around 50-60cfm. Hell their OEM claims it's 22dB but of course even the OEM for the hyperboreas have overblown specs


----------



## RnRollie

let me barge in with this:
the Grand Flexes could become great and "the new GT" if Scythe is willing to go through a revision or two/three

meanwhile, a 120x25.4 radiator fan for the mere mortal: Noiseblocker eLOOP PWM ;
for those "in the know" (and the position to go the extra mile if needed): Delta AFB, SanAce , Nidec, Sunon, etc


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> let me barge in with this:
> the Grand Flexes could become great and "the new GT" if Scythe is willing to go through a revision or two/three
> 
> meanwhile, a 120x25.4 radiator fan for the mere mortal: Noiseblocker eLOOP PWM ;
> for those "in the know" (and the position to go the extra mile if needed): Delta AFB, SanAce , Nidec, Sunon, etc


and where's the yates?


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> The YLs and grand flexes are no competition for deltas, there's a reason why they're NO-NONSENSE industrial fans
> 
> Those are a even bigger heap of lies.
> 
> They might be 18db but they don't even get close to 88cfm or 2.94mmH2O, 1mmH2O is more likely and around 50-60cfm. Hell their OEM claims it's 22dB but of course even the OEM for the hyperboreas have overblown specs


This I already know, but do you have any suggestions in the 25mm area that will push more air at the same noise level? Possibly a AFB1212L just throttled through a fan controller?

Also someone mentioned before that FD bearings arent really made for horizontal use, is this true?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> let me barge in with this:
> the Grand Flexes could become great and "the new GT" if Scythe is willing to go through a revision or two/three
> 
> meanwhile, a 120x25.4 radiator fan for the mere mortal: Noiseblocker eLOOP PWM ;
> for those "in the know" (and the position to go the extra mile if needed): Delta AFB, SanAce , Nidec, Sunon, etc


I could never justify spending $29 on a fan like that.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> This I already know, but do you have any suggestions in the 25mm area that will push more air at the same noise level? Possibly a AFB1212L just throttled through a fan controller?
> 
> Also someone mentioned before that FD bearings arent really made for horizontal use, is this true?
> I could never justify spending $29 on a fan like that.


Nevertheless, unless you want to wade in the whole "Industrial Fans" pond, the best radiator fan is the NB eLoop because it ticks all the boxes except the "cheap" box. Now, Phobya & Alphacool make/sell a Voltage clone of the eLoop... these are cheaper.

otherwise:

Golden Rule(s) for Fans:
CHEAP + SILENT = NO PERFORMANCE
CHEAP + PERFORMANCE = NOT SILENT
SILENT + PERFORMANCE = NOT CHEAP

_+Most SILENT Case Fans are not well suited for CPU-HS-Towers or Radiators_
_+Most SILENT Case Fans are not well suited for cases, especially if they have filters. (added by doyll on 23/04/2014)_









PS: about the YLs.. for radiator application, you end up with the HS ones, and they are too noisy for the performance they deliver... you get what you pay for


----------



## inVain

j/k with the yates.

these are my whole time winner


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> let me barge in with this:
> the Grand Flexes could become great and "the new GT" if Scythe is willing to go through a revision or two/three
> 
> meanwhile, a 120x25.4 radiator fan for the mere mortal: Noiseblocker eLOOP PWM ;
> for those "in the know" (and the position to go the extra mile if needed): Delta AFB, SanAce , Nidec, Sunon, etc


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Nevertheless, unless you want to wade in the whole "Industrial Fans" pond, the best radiator fan is the NB eLoop because it ticks all the boxes except the "cheap" box. Now, Phobya & Alphacool make/sell a Voltage clone of the eLoop... these are cheaper.
> 
> otherwise:
> 
> Golden Rule(s) for Fans:
> CHEAP + SILENT = NO PERFORMANCE
> CHEAP + PERFORMANCE = NOT SILENT
> SILENT + PERFORMANCE = NOT CHEAP
> 
> _+Most SILENT Case Fans are not well suited for CPU-HS-Towers or Radiators_
> _+Most SILENT Case Fans are not well suited for cases, especially if they have filters. (added by doyll on 23/04/2014)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: about the YLs.. for radiator application, you end up with the HS ones, and they are too noisy for the performance they deliver... you get what you pay for


sp120s are doing fine on my rad pushing and the grand flex's are pulling, theyre plenty quiet for my tastes and even when gaming I hardly hear the sp120s. The loudest fan in my case is usually my 780ti fans and the second being the 2300rpm yate on intake duty for my radiator that usually sits at about 40-50%.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> sp120s are doing fine on my rad pushing and the grand flex's are pulling, theyre plenty quiet for my tastes and even when gaming I hardly hear the sp120s. The loudest fan in my case is usually my 780ti fans and the second being the 2300rpm yate on intake duty for my radiator that usually sits at about 40-50%.


hmmmm

Corsair SP120 : $ 14.95
High performance: 3mm H²O , 2350 RPM , 35 dBa
Quiet Edition: 1.9mm H²0 , 1450 RPM , 23 dBa

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_1130_49_1156&products_id=34311

Scythe Grand Flex : $ 14.95
RPM, H²O, dBa depending on model number

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_1130_49_1043&products_id=40690

How is $ 29.90 (14.95+14.95) for more noise & wiring hassle a better deal as a $26.95 NB eLOOP B12P PWM or as a $ 18.95 Phobya eLoop voltage clone ?

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_1130_49_1045&products_id=35711
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_1130_49_1159&products_id=39919


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> hmmmm
> 
> Corsair SP120 : $ 14.95
> High performance: 3mm H²O , 2350 RPM , 35 dBa
> Quiet Edition: 1.9mm H²0 , 1450 RPM , 23 dBa
> 
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_1130_49_1156&products_id=34311
> 
> Scythe Grand Flex : $ 14.95
> RPM, H²O, dBa depending on model number
> 
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_1130_49_1043&products_id=40690
> 
> How is $ 29.90 (14.95+14.95) for more noise & wiring hassle a better deal as a $26.95 NB eLOOP B12P PWM or as a $ 18.95 Phobya eLoop voltage clone ?
> 
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_1130_49_1045&products_id=35711
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_1130_49_1159&products_id=39919


its the 2700rpm model from the h105, and i dont really care about top end noise as long as it can be throttled down with a fan controller or PWM.

Paying $27 for a single fan is ridiculous, and my fans werent really a hassle to wire at all.

If we do the math, 2 grand flexes vs 2 eLoops its pretty obvious whats a cheaper choice and offers better performance and flexibility.


----------



## RnRollie

unless you've got an 80mm thick monsta or some hi-fpi hwlabs, you dont need push-pull, although p-p always improves performance
now, if running SP120 (which are NOT masters of silence) on one side of the rad, you can bolt almost any quiet fan on the other side, as long as the quiet fan spins faster as the SP120 does at 60%

Anyways, your choice, and you are defending your choice.... its what people do to justify what they've done









i'm only saying that the GranFlex is not the fan it could be unless Scythe humbly asks Nidec to have a look at it and optimise it.
Meanwhile there are better choices as the GranFlex...
as far as i am concerned, ALL axial fans are below par and the weakest link in any (water)cooling system -radial fans is what you need- and thus it is false economics to settle for less as the best ... its like buying a 911 or Corvette and then shoeing it with the cheapest, dodgy retreads you can find and fueling it with something someone distilled in his backyard.
But hey, that is just my elitist opinion


----------



## HandsomeChow

Proof that an argument will inject life back into a forum thread
I liked the formula on the fan hub and blade radius
Show me more of these SanAces as I am in China and google is not available
How do these Samaces compare to Deltas?


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> unless you've got an 80mm thick monsta or some hi-fpi hwlabs, you dont need push-pull, although p-p always improves performance
> now, if running SP120 (which are NOT masters of silence) on one side of the rad, you can bolt almost any quiet fan on the other side, as long as the quiet fan spins faster as the SP120 does at 60%
> 
> Anyways, your choice, and you are defending your choice.... its what people do to justify what they've done
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm only saying that the GranFlex is not the fan it could be unless Scythe humbly asks Nidec to have a look at it and optimise it.
> Meanwhile there are better choices as the GranFlex...
> as far as i am concerned, ALL axial fans are below par and the weakest link in any (water)cooling system -radial fans is what you need- and thus it is false economics to settle for less as the best ... its like buying a 911 or Corvette and then shoeing it with the cheapest, dodgy retreads you can find and fueling it with something someone distilled in his backyard.
> But hey, that is just my elitist opinion


Idk the grand flex doesnt seem to do much when under a prime torture test whether its at 40% or 100% that I can see, but the second I take the fan off, temps shoot up 2-5C. So a slow fan might be fine for up top

Hell, If this AFB1212H is all its cracked up to be I might just order 4 and replace all of the rad fans and use the sp120s or the flexes for the case intake


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Proof that an argument will inject life back into a forum thread
> I liked the formula on the fan hub and blade radius
> Show me more of these SanAces as I am in China and google is not available
> How do these Samaces compare to Deltas?


I believe I mentioned it a while back, Sanyo 9S fans are indeed better than low-speed Delta AFBs but 9Gs are certainly no match for AFB. That's how epic they are


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I believe I mentioned it a while back, Sanyo 9S fans are indeed better than low-speed Delta AFBs but 9Gs are certainly no match for AFB. That's how epic they are


Would you be jelly if I was to tell you I got 30 of the San Ace 9S for the cost of 3 Noctua "industrial" fans. I might sell the ones I don't need on here for a lot less that you get from the suppliers.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> Would you be jelly if I was to tell you I got 30 of the San Ace 9S for the cost of 3 Noctua "industrial" fans. I might sell the ones I don't need on here for a lot less that you get from the suppliers.


O.O But too bad shipping will be quite steep to get them to where I am.


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> O.O But too bad shipping will be quite steep to get them to where I am.


Well only if you accepted donations you such a good fan review (hint hint). It is a great example of bargains to be had on ebay, it was actually cheaper to get 30 of them than buy one or two off other sellers.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I believe I mentioned it a while back, Sanyo 9S fans are indeed better than low-speed Delta AFBs but 9Gs are certainly no match for AFB. That's how epic they are


Yeah but the 9S are not really built for performance at high speeds. In some ways the philosophy is similar to the Gentle Typhoon low speed variants.

The AFB will outperform them at medium to high speeds.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> as far as i am concerned, ALL axial fans are below par and the weakest link in any (water)cooling system -radial fans is what you need- and thus it is false economics to settle for less as the best ... its like buying a 911 or Corvette and then shoeing it with the cheapest, dodgy retreads you can find and fueling it with something someone distilled in his backyard.
> But hey, that is just my elitist opinion


Yeah but how do you plan on adopting a blower for a radiator or CPU cooler?

Has anyone here used EBM Papst fans before? How do they compare?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Yeah but the 9S are not really built for performance at high speeds. In some ways the philosophy is similar to the Gentle Typhoon low speed variants.
> 
> The AFB will outperform them at medium to high speeds.
> Yeah but how do you plan on adopting a blower for a radiator or CPU cooler?
> 
> Has anyone here used EBM Papst fans before? How do they compare?


Yup. Only for lower speeds.

LEL. Either way a blower might have huge static pressure but they aren't any good at direct cooling because of their low surface area and low CFM. A radiator intended for blowers would probably have to be very very long or fabbing an adaptor would just not be as efficient as a 120mm fan + rad

Er, they're a bit too expensive








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> Well only if you accepted donations you such a good fan review (hint hint). It is a great example of bargains to be had on ebay, it was actually cheaper to get 30 of them than buy one or two off other sellers.










I do accept donations


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Yeah but the 9S are not really built for performance at high speeds. In some ways the philosophy is similar to the Gentle Typhoon low speed variants.
> 
> The AFB will outperform them at medium to high speeds.
> *Yeah but how do you plan on adopting a blower for a radiator or CPU cooler?*
> 
> Has anyone here used EBM Papst fans before? How do they compare?


hey, i never said it would be easy









Axial fans is what we are historically stuck with...

But if you dont mind giving up portability, you can do the equivalent of bolting your PC inside an HVAC air duct









And you can easily bolt a pair of 120.3 rads to this :


----------



## HandsomeChow

Dave, brother. I am trying to convince my homeboy Sam that Noctua fans both industrial and redux and normal are over rated. How should I proceed?
And some how he has this perception that all Delta Fans are loud. I don't know how to sway him from this misconception


----------



## egrest

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Dave, brother. I am trying to convince my homeboy Sam that Noctua fans both industrial and redux and normal are over rated. How should I proceed?
> And some how he has this perception that all Delta Fans are loud. I don't know how to sway him from this misconception


Blind test. Set up both fans. Blindfold him, then ask whether he tells a difference between both fans, and which is the louder fan.


----------



## mam72

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Dave, brother. I am trying to convince my homeboy Sam that Noctua fans both industrial and redux and normal are over rated. How should I proceed?
> And some how he has this perception that all Delta Fans are loud. I don't know how to sway him from this misconception


Well all you need to do is show him actual evidence that Noctua fans are the false prophets, and the only true prophets are .the industrial manufactures. Look at one of my previous posts on the subject:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mam72*
> 
> Noctua fans have always been a bit questionable. Their marketing claimed that the S12 as optomised for airflow while the P12 was for radiators, yet martins liquid labs testing showed that the S12 performed better. Later on the NF-F12 was the 2nd worst performing fan in his radiator tests when it came to sound per CFM and sound per RPM.
> 
> Another example is with SPCR, they updated their testing procedure for there fans and the Noctua S12s did not perform all that well compared to the others. Source
> 
> Later on SPCR updated there recommended fans, there is only one Noctua fan in the list for 140mm and ZERO in the 120mm list. Source. SPCR's more recent 140mm+ fan reviews show that the Noctua fans do cool well, but there are better cheaper alternatives.


Here are some tables and graphs about comparing fans, here you will see that noctua fans do their jobs its just that so do the other fan and in some cases a lot better and cheaper


----------



## nick779

Can deltas be controlled through voltage instead of PWM too? The datasheet shows them being good from 4v up to 13.2 but I have another delta that acts very strange on my fan controller thats a 4 pin.
I found some EFB1212VHE's on ebay im thinking of using for rad fans but I only have a 2 pin fan controller.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Can deltas be controlled through voltage instead of PWM too? The datasheet shows them being good from 4v up to 13.2 but I have another delta that acts very strange on my fan controller thats a 4 pin.
> I found some EFB1212VHE's on ebay im thinking of using for rad fans but I only have a 2 pin fan controller.


If you buy a delta that's a 4pin then it will controlled no problem. Again, fans controlled by voltage are never linear.

Just stick with AFBs ...


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Can deltas be controlled through voltage instead of PWM too? The datasheet shows them being good from 4v up to 13.2 but I have another delta that acts very strange on my fan controller thats a 4 pin.
> I found some EFB1212VHE's on ebay im thinking of using for rad fans but I only have a 2 pin fan controller.


yeah, but why buy sophisticated "expensive" PWM fans when you are going to control them with 1920's technology

also note that most PWM fans don't like being voltage controlled and they WILL let you know throught their behaviour & noise profile


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> yeah, but why buy sophisticated "expensive" PWM fans when you are going to control them with 1920's technology
> 
> also note that most PWM fans don't like being voltage controlled and they WILL let you know throught their behaviour & noise profile


I would have bought a better controller, but I couldnt find one that seemed reliable. almost all of the better ones on newegg had mediocre reviews.

Any suggestions on a pwm fan controller?


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I would have bought a better controller, but I couldnt find one that seemed reliable. almost all of the better ones on newegg had mediocre reviews.
> 
> Any suggestions on a pwm fan controller?


yes, the CPU_FAN1 header on your motherboard teamed up with a Swiftech 8-way PWM splitter and speedfan software
http://www.swiftech.com/8-WayPWMsplitter.aspx

unless you want to venture into german technology with the Aquaro controllers.. they are fantastic, but a bit expensive
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_48&products_id=39783


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I would have bought a better controller, but I couldnt find one that seemed reliable. almost all of the better ones on newegg had mediocre reviews.
> 
> Any suggestions on a pwm fan controller?
> 
> 
> 
> yes, the CPU_FAN1 header on your motherboard teamed up with a Swiftech 8-way PWM splitter and speedfan software
> http://www.swiftech.com/8-WayPWMsplitter.aspx
> 
> unless you want to venture into german technology with the Aquaro controllers.. they are fantastic, but a bit expensive
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_48&products_id=39783
Click to expand...

I'll have to take a look at those. I'm thinking about doing a splitter for my rad fans and the rear intake but I don't know if pairing different types and models of fans would mess the pwm control up. I may order that just to toy with it


----------



## RnRollie

as long as all fans are PWM, it works
50% of 5000 RPM or 50% of 1000 RPM is always 50%
the PWM control on the MB sends a "run fan at 50%" signal to the splitter and any attached PWM fan will run at 50%, no matter if it is an 8000 RPM 60mm screamer or a 600RPM 300mm sidepanel fan they still get a 12v feed but the circuitery will make them run at 12000 ticks iso 25000 ticks

you only have to consider placement/usage... an single 800 RPM fan running at 350 RPM when bolted to a thick radiator is probably not a good idea


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> as long as all fans are PWM, it works
> 50% of 5000 RPM or 50% of 1000 RPM is always 50%
> the PWM control on the MB sends a "run fan at 50%" signal to the splitter and any attached PWM fan will run at 50%, no matter if it is an 8000 RPM 60mm screamer or a 600RPM 300mm sidepanel fan they still get a 12v feed but the circuitery will make them run at 12000 ticks iso 25000 ticks
> 
> you only have to consider placement/usage... an single 800 RPM fan running at 350 RPM when bolted to a thick radiator is probably not a good idea


Hmm this may be easier than I thought if I get the right fans. I just have to match the max speed properly to each location.

I'll have to look through the datasheets and see if I can find the right fan. I really want to replace my 14cm hyperboras because even at 100% I can barely feel them in the case.


----------



## jtom320

Any recomendations on 140mm radiator fans? I don't want to do it but my radiators are just not cutting it with my current set up. Need more surface area.

Rad is going to be in push or pull only so I need two that are pretty decent.


----------



## nick779

Figured I'd update, I got my afb1212h 3 pin model from a dell pc and even at 100% it seems whisper quiet to me. I may have to check it on a header for an rpm reading because it just doesn't sound like it's going that fast...

If it's seriously running at that rpm I'm buying 2 more for Intakes and finding 2-4 afb1212vhs for my rad.

As for the radiator, depending on your space available I'd get some reducing shrouds and some of the afb1212hs for them. Dave or any of the other knowledgable people in this thread can chime in.

Edit: found out the fan is only running at ~2150 rpm, im assuming this is because of the max operating voltage is 13.8 and its only getting 12 on the dot. still seems to push more air then my YL at the full rpm range all while being quieter too.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> Any recomendations on 140mm radiator fans? I don't want to do it but my radiators are just not cutting it with my current set up. Need more surface area.
> 
> Rad is going to be in push or pull only so I need two that are pretty decent.


According to your sig you have 480mm worth of radiators, how is that not enough?

Anyways, with the exception of a SanAce 140x38 there is a serious lack of "good" 140mm fans
https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/dc_fan_detail.php?master_id=2515
https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/dc_fan_detail.php?master_id=2514

Fortunately, if you are going push/pull you can get away with a lpair of less powerfull fans

Bitfenix Spectre Pro PWM might be a possibility http://www.bitfenix.com/global/en/products/accessories/spectre-pro-pwm#specs

However, if you are planning to use a 30mm or even 45mm "thick" radiator, push/pull might not be needed.

Push/Pull can yield upto 30% better performance for the same noise level as single fans.
But for thin & low fpi rads you'll never get near that 30%


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> According to your sig you have 480mm worth of radiators, how is that not enough?
> 
> Anyways, with the exception of a SanAce 140x38 there is a serious lack of "good" 140mm fans
> https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/dc_fan_detail.php?master_id=2515
> https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/dc_fan_detail.php?master_id=2514
> 
> Fortunately, if you are going push/pull you can get away with a lpair of less powerfull fans
> 
> Bitfenix Spectre Pro PWM might be a possibility http://www.bitfenix.com/global/en/products/accessories/spectre-pro-pwm#specs
> 
> However, if you are planning to use a 30mm or even 45mm "thick" radiator, push/pull might not be needed.
> 
> Push/Pull can yield upto 30% better performance for the same noise level as single fans.
> But for thin & low fpi rads you'll never get near that 30%


Rollie. Spectre Pro are a bunch of overpriced mediocre fans too. They are really crap beyond this world.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Rollie. Spectre Pro are a bunch of overpriced mediocre fans too. They are really crap beyond this world.


In that case.. SanAce FTW


----------



## nick779

Just ordered 2 more AFB1212h's to replace the hyperboras, kinda wish i could have stick with a 140mm fan though. ill have to check out the sans ace 140s. Do they make a 25mm version?

Its actually pretty shocking how much more airflow there is through a mesh filter with these vs the YL that was in its place.

Id return the Grand flex's but frozencpu wants 20% restocking fee plus shipping, so i may just let them die and replace em down the road.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Just ordered 2 more AFB1212h's to replace the hyperboras, kinda wish i could have stick with a 140mm fan though. ill have to check out the sans ace 140s. Do they make a 25mm version?
> 
> Its actually pretty shocking how much more airflow there is through a mesh filter with these vs the YL that was in its place.
> 
> Id return the Grand flex's but frozencpu wants 20% restocking fee plus shipping, so i may just let them die and replace em down the road.


Don't bother with 140mm fans like we said.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Just ordered 2 more AFB1212h's to replace the hyperboras, kinda wish i could have stick with a 140mm fan though. ill have to check out the sans ace 140s. Do they make a 25mm version?
> 
> Its actually pretty shocking how much more airflow there is through a mesh filter with these vs the YL that was in its place.
> 
> Id return the Grand flex's but frozencpu wants 20% restocking fee plus shipping, so i may just let them die and replace em down the road.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't bother with 140mm fans like we said.
Click to expand...

I already ordered afb 120s for the front intake, I was just curious.

Was I right with my assumption regarding rpm? That they don't hit the rated peak rpm because the working voltage is 4-13.8v and it's only getting 12. This is for the 3 pin afbs


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Don't bother with 140mm fans like we said.


If you had to have one though what would it be? This is a rad fan keep in mind.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> If you had to have one though what would it be? This is a rad fan keep in mind.


scroll back up to post 528
http://www.overclock.net/t/1394467/ocn-daves-air-cooling-guide-updated/500_100#post_22524605

SanAce rulez


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> scroll back up to post 528
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1394467/ocn-daves-air-cooling-guide-updated/500_100#post_22524605
> 
> SanAce rulez


Needs to be 25mm. There's got to be at least one decent one.


----------



## RnRollie

Swiftech Helix are halfway decent... good enough for p/p on rad
or the Silverstone AP , but at full titl a bit noisy
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_316_850&products_id=29791


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I already ordered afb 120s for the front intake, I was just curious.
> 
> Was I right with my assumption regarding rpm? That they don't hit the rated peak rpm because the working voltage is 4-13.8v and it's only getting 12. This is for the 3 pin afbs


peak rpm is 12v. it should 2500rpm for the H model. Does yours come with a thermoprobe sticking out of the hub?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> If you had to have one though what would it be? This is a rad fan keep in mind.


Hard to think of one but it might possibly be a phanteks 140mm.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Swiftech Helix are halfway decent... good enough for p/p on rad
> or the Silverstone AP , but at full titl a bit noisy
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_316_850&products_id=29791


Helix are essentially halfway decent ripoffs of gentle typhoons ... and halfway decent hardly makes me want to recommend something.

Silverstone AP fans are only good at one thing : Being like a very knee-capped FFB fan







but frankly they're not really useful for rad performance


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I already ordered afb 120s for the front intake, I was just curious.
> 
> Was I right with my assumption regarding rpm? That they don't hit the rated peak rpm because the working voltage is 4-13.8v and it's only getting 12. This is for the 3 pin afbs
> 
> 
> 
> peak rpm is 12v. it should 2500rpm for the H model. Does yours come with a thermoprobe sticking out of the hub?
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> If you had to have one though what would it be? This is a rad fan keep in mind.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hard to think of one but it might possibly be a phanteks 140mm.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Swiftech Helix are halfway decent... good enough for p/p on rad
> or the Silverstone AP , but at full titl a bit noisy
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_316_850&products_id=29791
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Helix are essentially halfway decent ripoffs of gentle typhoons ... and halfway decent hardly makes me want to recommend something.
> 
> Silverstone AP fans are only good at one thing : Being like a very knee-capped FFB fan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but frankly they're not really useful for rad performance
Click to expand...

Nope, no thermocouple. Unless the tach output is wrong. I have 2 more coming so I see if they're the same.

They're 3 pin afb1212h for a dell desktop CPU cooler with a bracket and they have a standard white (non dell) connectors on them so they seem factory.


----------



## AMW1011

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> Needs to be 25mm. There's got to be at least one decent one.


Probably only the 140mm Noctua industrial line is worthwhile. Even those don't really perform as well as a good 120mm industrial fan and are insanely overpriced.

Alternatively, get a 120-140mm fan adaptor, it'll add a few mm onto the 120mm fan but will act like a shroud and still allow you to benefit from the increased surface area.


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AMW1011*
> 
> Probably only the 140mm Noctua industrial line is worthwhile. Even those don't really perform as well as a good 120mm industrial fan and are insanely overpriced.
> 
> Alternatively, get a 120-140mm fan adaptor, it'll add a few mm onto the 120mm fan but will act like a shroud and still allow you to benefit from the increased surface area.


Problem is that I have a 350D. A 280mm rad is hard enough to get in and I have height issues as well. 55mm is the absolute max anything your going to fit in it.

Would solve a ton of problems if I could just get a bigger rad. Would love to stick a UT60 up there with some undervolted deltas I just can't do it.

At any rate this is the phanteks fan that is decent?

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/21848/fan-1270/Phanteks_140mm_x_25mm_UFB_Bearing_Fan_-_Black_Frame_White_Blade_PH-F140SP-BK.html?tl=g36c15s775


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> Problem is that I have a 350D. A 280mm rad is hard enough to get in and I have height issues as well. 55mm is the absolute max anything your going to fit in it.
> 
> Would solve a ton of problems if I could just get a bigger rad. Would love to stick a UT60 up there with some undervolted deltas I just can't do it.
> 
> At any rate this is the phanteks fan that is decent?
> 
> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/21848/fan-1270/Phanteks_140mm_x_25mm_UFB_Bearing_Fan_-_Black_Frame_White_Blade_PH-F140SP-BK.html?tl=g36c15s775


That one has got barely any static pressure. Which means there ain't any decent 140mm fans ... worth buying.
If you really are desperate
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/21850/fan-1272/Phanteks_140mm_x_25mm_UFB_Bearing_PWM_Fan_w_Speed_Adapter_-_Black_Frame_White_Blade_PH-F140XP-BK.html


----------



## RnRollie

now, Aerocool has some fans with "go-faster" stripes.
Based on the numbers they should be halfway decent... but... until someone verfies those numbers... a grain of salt must be kept nearby

http://www.aerocool.us/accessory/images/dsfan_14white.html


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> now, Aerocool has some fans with "go-faster" stripes.
> Based on the numbers they should be halfway decent... but... until someone verfies those numbers... a grain of salt must be kept nearby
> 
> http://www.aerocool.us/accessory/images/dsfan_14white.html


Take it with a huge tankerload of salt. Aerocool fans have been nearly the most mediocre of the pack and has always been


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> That one has got barely any static pressure. Which means there ain't any decent 140mm fans ... worth buying.
> If you really are desperate
> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/21850/fan-1272/Phanteks_140mm_x_25mm_UFB_Bearing_PWM_Fan_w_Speed_Adapter_-_Black_Frame_White_Blade_PH-F140XP-BK.html


Thanks Dave your my dude. Always come back to this thread for fan advice.

One more question what's a decent comparison on this fan? SP120 level? Worse? They are going to be on an ST30 so I don't need a ton of pressure.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Nope, no thermocouple. Unless the tach output is wrong. I have 2 more coming so I see if they're the same.
> 
> They're 3 pin afb1212h for a dell desktop CPU cooler with a bracket and they have a standard white (non dell) connectors on them so they seem factory.


Any thoughts on this?

Im beginning to think my mobo is the problem because the 2700rpm SP120s that came with my h105 only hit 2400rpm at 100% on the CPU fan header that I know is PWM.


----------



## Onyxian

Are there any modifications I would have to make to a case to mount a fan on the exterior of a side panel? There won't be enough room for a 25mm on the inside so either I get a 12mm to put on the inside or mount a good 25mm on the outside but I don't want to have to do any modifications.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> Are there any modifications I would have to make to a case to mount a fan on the exterior of a side panel? There won't be enough room for a 25mm on the inside so either I get a 12mm to put on the inside or mount a good 25mm on the outside but I don't want to have to do any modifications.


only if you use a battery operated fan.. ontherwise you will have to find a way to route some powerlead to the fan. With a long enough powerlead, you could route it around the back trhough an pci slot.

Mounting a fan on the outside isn't going to do wonders for looks.. but a dangling wire ALSO would be too much for me


----------



## Onyxian

That side of the case will be facing the wall anyway, I guess I could get a 4 pin extension cable and route it around. Now to decide on what fans to get.


----------



## nick779

My fan headers all read 12.07v at full power.... I don't get it. The yate and the hyperboras are the only fans reading and acting correctly...


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Any thoughts on this?
> 
> Im beginning to think my mobo is the problem because the 2700rpm SP120s that came with my h105 only hit 2400rpm at 100% on the CPU fan header that I know is PWM.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> My fan headers all read 12.07v at full power.... I don't get it. The yate and the hyperboras are the only fans reading and acting correctly...


how many fans did you connect to your mobo?
did you measure the voltage output with the fans connected to your mobo's headers?

there's a chance that you overload the wattage capacity of your fan headers on the mobo, so a slight voltage drop might appear.
suggest you to power your fans straight off the PSU if you intend to have them full speed.

as for the 2700 fan that spin at 2400, it quite close to the "+/- 10%" that every factory claim.
but again, the voltage drop might be the culprint here


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> If you had to have one though what would it be? This is a rad fan keep in mind.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> peak rpm is 12v. it should 2500rpm for the H model. Does yours come with a thermoprobe sticking out of the hub?
> Hard to think of one but it might possibly be a phanteks 140mm.


At the moment, the Noctua ones are among the top, particularly the newer A15 and A14. The Thermalright Ty140s might be worth looking at too.

But at that price point, you can get 140mm FFB fans on Aliexpress. See below.

This might be the best fan:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-New-Original-Delta-blower-fan-FFB1424SHG-14051-24V-2-3A-Ultra-Madden-wind/1018887990.html

Yeah it's 24V, but if you plug a 12V cable in, it should run just fine. Don't plug it into a motherboard header - 2.3A starting, 1.53A running.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Helix are essentially halfway decent ripoffs of gentle typhoons ... and halfway decent hardly makes me want to recommend something.
> 
> Silverstone AP fans are only good at one thing : Being like a very knee-capped FFB fan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but frankly they're not really useful for rad performance


Frankly, there hasn't been anything good from Silverstone's fans. At least the FFB and PFB offer something interesting that might be useful, plus they ship with some very high quality frames. What use are these Silverstone fans?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> now, Aerocool has some fans with "go-faster" stripes.
> Based on the numbers they should be halfway decent... but... until someone verfies those numbers... a grain of salt must be kept nearby
> 
> http://www.aerocool.us/accessory/images/dsfan_14white.html


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Take it with a huge tankerload of salt. Aerocool fans have been nearly the most mediocre of the pack and has always been


Nah, assuming that is the same fan as the Sharkoon Shark (they look the same), those fans are no good. In fact, they are among the worst fans you can buy:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Sharkoon_SHARK_Blades_SilverStone_FQ121

Read the full review.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> At the moment, the Noctua ones are among the top, particularly the newer A15 and A14. The Thermalright Ty140s might be worth looking at too.
> 
> But at that price point, you can get 140mm FFB fans on Aliexpress. See below.
> 
> This might be the best fan:
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-New-Original-Delta-blower-fan-FFB1424SHG-14051-24V-2-3A-Ultra-Madden-wind/1018887990.html
> 
> Yeah it's 24V, but if you plug a 12V cable in, it should run just fine. Don't plug it into a motherboard header - 2.3A starting, 1.53A running.
> Frankly, there hasn't been anything good from Silverstone's fans. At least the FFB and PFB offer something interesting that might be useful, plus they ship with some very high quality frames. What use are these Silverstone fans?
> 
> Nah, assuming that is the same fan as the Sharkoon Shark (they look the same), those fans are no good. In fact, they are among the worst fans you can buy:
> http://www.silentpcreview.com/Sharkoon_SHARK_Blades_SilverStone_FQ121
> 
> Read the full review.


Meh. No thanks to noctua.

Actually, it will pull at most 1amp at 12v. If you know anything their current draw goes down, they do not use buck converters.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> how many fans did you connect to your mobo?
> did you measure the voltage output with the fans connected to your mobo's headers?
> 
> there's a chance that you overload the wattage capacity of your fan headers on the mobo, so a slight voltage drop might appear.
> suggest you to power your fans straight off the PSU if you intend to have them full speed.
> 
> as for the 2700 fan that spin at 2400, it quite close to the "+/- 10%" that every factory claim.
> but again, the voltage drop might be the culprint here


My mobo has 3 fan headers, on cpu fan theres 2 SP120s (2700rpm), on the chas 2 theres 2 rosewill hyperbora 140s, and on chas fan 1 I have the delta AFB1212H

If I leave them all at the normal speeds, which is ~880rpm, 1150rpm and 1550rpm respectively and just test an individual fan at 100% I see the low RPMs. I pulled a hyperbora off with all other fans running at 100% and it sits at 12.07V read through a splitter with a fluke multimeter, so either im unlucky with the fans I got or somethings up, because the rosewills and an old yate loon 2300rpm are the only fans that report spot on 100% rpms and theyre both the cheapest and lowest quality fans I have. I have 2 more AFB1212hs on the way and ill test them and see what happens, ill also try them through my fan controller together.

My last resort is to buy a cheapo tach off amazon and test to see if the RPM is reporting correctly.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> My mobo has 3 fan headers, on cpu fan theres 2 SP120s (2700rpm), on the chas 2 theres 2 rosewill hyperbora 140s, and on chas fan 1 I have the delta AFB1212H
> 
> If I leave them all at the normal speeds, which is ~880rpm, 1150rpm and 1550rpm respectively and just test an individual fan at 100% I see the low RPMs. I pulled a hyperbora off with all other fans running at 100% and it sits at 12.07V read through a splitter with a fluke multimeter, so either im unlucky with the fans I got or somethings up, because the rosewills and an old yate loon 2300rpm are the only fans that report spot on 100% rpms and theyre both the cheapest and lowest quality fans I have. I have 2 more AFB1212hs on the way and ill test them and see what happens, ill also try them through my fan controller together.
> 
> My last resort is to buy a cheapo tach off amazon and test to see if the RPM is reporting correctly.


Try switching where you plug them to. Or you bought a weirdly acting afb1212h. What's the serial number on it? (Like -5A79) Is your mobo set to voltage regulation on fan headers? Or does it not have?


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> My mobo has 3 fan headers, on cpu fan theres 2 SP120s (2700rpm), on the chas 2 theres 2 rosewill hyperbora 140s, and on chas fan 1 I have the delta AFB1212H
> 
> If I leave them all at the normal speeds, which is ~880rpm, 1150rpm and 1550rpm respectively and just test an individual fan at 100% I see the low RPMs. I pulled a hyperbora off with all other fans running at 100% and it sits at 12.07V read through a splitter with a fluke multimeter, so either im unlucky with the fans I got or somethings up, because the rosewills and an old yate loon 2300rpm are the only fans that report spot on 100% rpms and theyre both the cheapest and lowest quality fans I have. I have 2 more AFB1212hs on the way and ill test them and see what happens, ill also try them through my fan controller together.
> 
> My last resort is to buy a cheapo tach off amazon and test to see if the RPM is reporting correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> Try switching where you plug them to. Or you bought a weirdly acting afb1212h. What's the serial number on it? (Like -5A79) Is your mobo set to voltage regulation on fan headers? Or does it not have?
Click to expand...

-8v1d
Fan acts the same no matter where it's plugged In. It doesn't have a setting to pick, all chassis headers are voltage regulation and CPU will run pwm or voltage reg. but even if I set the fan to run at 100% in the bios and confirm it's getting 12v I get that low rpm reading with the delta and my sp120s


----------



## HandsomeChow

Hey guys, You know the thermal probes bundled with Fan Controllers and stuff right?
How accurately do they represent the temperature of the chip they are measuring if they are put on the heatsink or on the back of the chip?
And is there a tutorial for speed fan?


----------



## stubass

Hi Dave,

When I bought my 4790K i got for free these Corsair fans twin pack.
http://www.corsair.com/en/air-series-sp120-high-performance-edition-high-static-pressure-120mm-fan

Are they worth while keeping or sell em?

Would they be ok on a CM 120M AIO used just for testing a chip?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> When I bought my 4790K i got for free these Corsair fans twin pack.
> http://www.corsair.com/en/air-series-sp120-high-performance-edition-high-static-pressure-120mm-fan
> 
> Are they worth while keeping or sell em?
> 
> Would they be ok on a CM 120M AIO used just for testing a chip?


Keep 'em! If they're free i don't see why not.


----------



## stubass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> When I bought my 4790K i got for free these Corsair fans twin pack.
> http://www.corsair.com/en/air-series-sp120-high-performance-edition-high-static-pressure-120mm-fan
> 
> Are they worth while keeping or sell em?
> 
> Would they be ok on a CM 120M AIO used just for testing a chip?
> 
> 
> 
> Keep 'em! If they're free i don't see why not.
Click to expand...

Alrighty and thanks Dave...


----------



## [CyGnus]

stubass corsair fans are way over rated in my point of view they are actually very loud at those kind of dba you have a ton of fans in the market, but that is just me i like silence and performance so those two dont combine very well


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> stubass corsair fans are way over rated in my point of view they are actually very loud at those kind of dba you have a ton of fans in the market, but that is just me i like silence and performance so those two dont combine very well


IMO they are not the best and Delta fans do kick them hard but it's free for him and it's pretty decent. Look, I'm not the kind who supports corsair in anyway









Many fans out there are over-rated too







Corsair SP120s are actually no-bollocks.


----------



## stubass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> stubass corsair fans are way over rated in my point of view they are actually very loud at those kind of dba you have a ton of fans in the market, but that is just me i like silence and performance so those two dont combine very well


I thought they were way over-rated but since they were a free gift with CPU, i decided to keep them... hahah yes silence and performance don't combine very well lol.. I suffer from tinnitus so noise dont bother me. there are some fans Dave has recommended me before i still have to get that are very noisy i would say but i dont mind.


----------



## [CyGnus]

In that case the corsairs are very good 2300rpm great static pressure and they look good.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> stubass corsair fans are way over rated in my point of view they are actually very loud at those kind of dba you have a ton of fans in the market, but that is just me i like silence and performance so those two dont combine very well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO they are not the best and Delta fans do kick them hard but it's free for him and it's pretty decent. Look, I'm not the kind who supports corsair in anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many fans out there are over-rated too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Corsair SP120s are actually no-bollocks.
Click to expand...

Can you decipher anything with that serial? Anything stand out?

I'm hoping it's just a bad one and the 2 I have in the mail are more true to spec

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> In that case the corsairs are very good 2300rpm great static pressure and they look good.


If they're anything like the "2700" rpm ones that came with my h105 they're gonna rattle like hell.

IMO I'd sell them.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Can you decipher anything with that serial? Anything stand out?
> 
> I'm hoping it's just a bad one and the 2 I have in the mail are more true to spec
> If they're anything like the "2700" rpm ones that came with my h105 they're gonna rattle like hell.
> 
> IMO I'd sell them.


What RPM do you get? I think it's probably shot or it does have a thermoprobe.
He's got tinnitus. My dad suffers from it, it's something you never recover from. Even if something rattled badly my dad wouldn't notice


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> What RPM do you get? I think it's probably shot or it does have a thermoprobe.
> He's got tinnitus. My dad suffers from it, it's something you never recover from. Even if something rattled badly my dad wouldn't notice


The one is running at ~2150rpm, the other two havent come in yet. And theres nothing on the base of the fan sticking out like other thermoprobed deltas ive seen. These are supposed to be brand new pulls from unused lease computers
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200892228984&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1120


----------



## stubass

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Can you decipher anything with that serial? Anything stand out?
> 
> I'm hoping it's just a bad one and the 2 I have in the mail are more true to spec
> If they're anything like the "2700" rpm ones that came with my h105 they're gonna rattle like hell.
> 
> IMO I'd sell them.
> 
> 
> 
> What RPM do you get? I think it's probably shot or it does have a thermoprobe.
> He's got tinnitus. My dad suffers from it, it's something you never recover from. Even if something rattled badly my dad wouldn't notice
Click to expand...

yup, sometimes i cant even hear the phone ring lol... the rubber grommets on the screw holes i think helps a bit too.. I have been trying them out and they are doing thier job so thats what counts


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> The one is running at ~2150rpm, the other two havent come in yet. And theres nothing on the base of the fan sticking out like other thermoprobed deltas ive seen. These are supposed to be brand new pulls from unused lease computers
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200892228984&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1120


Hmm ... I'm not sure. I know they can go off in RPM but if you're fine with 2150 then ok. I'm not a fan engineer so i'm not sure.
Either you got a underperforming afb1212h or OEM ones are differently rated. Sorry mate.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> yup, sometimes i cant even hear the phone ring lol... the rubber grommets on the screw holes i think helps a bit too.. I have been trying them out and they are doing thier job so thats what counts










How's life been? Haven't been here for real for ages. Neither have you by the looks of it


----------



## stubass

Great Dave, playing with some haswell and DC chips to get ready to go cold on them.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Hmm ... I'm not sure. I know they can go off in RPM but if you're fine with 2150 then ok. I'm not a fan engineer so i'm not sure.
> Either you got a underperforming afb1212h or OEM ones are differently rated. Sorry mate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How's life been? Haven't been here for real for ages. Neither have you by the looks of it


ill have to see, if these run the wrong RPM Ill probably just return them to the ebay seller and look elsewhere. I just dont get how a fan can differ from its specs, OEM or not.

On another note, im looking for 25mm PWM fans to replace the sp120s and potentially 38mms to replace the scythes, any delta suggestions? because I love the AFB


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stubass*
> 
> Great Dave, playing with some haswell and DC chips to get ready to go cold on them.


Nice. Got your DICE ready for your DC?







*Pun intended* My 4670k runs hot as heck. Giving up hope on it, I think. Delidded your chips yet? DC chips are still exactly the same underneath. Another word too, I see no point in G3258 apart from OC'ing and i still reckon a usable 4670k/4690k will eat it anyway in terms of clockspeed
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> ill have to see, if these run the wrong RPM Ill probably just return them to the ebay seller and look elsewhere. I just dont get how a fan can differ from its specs, OEM or not.
> 
> On another note, im looking for 25mm PWM fans to replace the sp120s and potentially 38mms to replace the scythes, any delta suggestions? because I love the AFB


AFB1212H once again, I use AFB1212H primarily now since AFB1212M PWM are rare.

38mm look to a AFC1212DE 1.6A if you can recrimp pins or just a afb1212she. Don't go for the new ones


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Nice. Got your DICE ready for your DC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pun intended* My 4670k runs hot as heck. Giving up hope on it, I think. Delidded your chips yet? DC chips are still exactly the same underneath. Another word too, I see no point in G3258 apart from OC'ing and i still reckon a usable 4670k/4690k will eat it anyway in terms of clockspeed
> AFB1212H once again, I use AFB1212H primarily now since AFB1212M PWM are rare.
> 
> 38mm look to a AFC1212DE 1.6A if you can recrimp pins or just a afb1212she. Don't go for the new ones


IIRC the AFC1212DE comes with a 5 pin dell connector most of the time, Ive had good luck removing the pins and putting them in the right spot, and then shaving the connector down to a 4 pin with a utility knife. Ill have to see what I can scrounge up. I may just wait until I can find the pwm afbs because I need pwm fans for this as I'm going to use 1 channel to control 4-5 fans. I'm just limited by the push fans because 25mm barely fit. I was looking at the 3 blade pwm fans because I found the 3700rpm 25mm ones but I feel like they'd have crap pressure at lower rpms.


----------



## stubass

hey Dave funny pun lol









Not DICE but Ln2 this time


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> The one is running at ~2150rpm, the other two havent come in yet. And theres nothing on the base of the fan sticking out like other thermoprobed deltas ive seen. These are supposed to be brand new pulls from unused lease computers
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200892228984&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1120


Shouldn't those come with a little sticker on the fanhub denoting the type?

if they are running 2100 - 2200 RPM they might be AFB1212*M* , not AFB1212*H*

http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf
http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x38mm.pdf

a couple of years back you could get very cheap 512Mb & 1GB USB Pendrives one ebay... i think the whole stash sold out in one day... couple of days later the comments started rolling in.. turned out to be relabelled 32Mb pendrives









Not say this is the case here, but you never know...


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Shouldn't those come with a little sticker on the fanhub denoting the type?
> 
> if they are running 2100 - 2200 RPM they might be AFB1212*M* , not AFB1212*H*
> 
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf
> http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x38mm.pdf
> 
> a couple of years back you could get very cheap 512Mb & 1GB USB Pendrives one ebay... i think the whole stash sold out in one day... couple of days later the comments started rolling in.. turned out to be relabelled 32Mb pendrives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not say this is the case here, but you never know...


Thats what I was starting to think, unless dell has some proprietary tach output that reads wrong, but we will see, because I really doubt an industrial fan supplier would have QC that bad. Its just weird because it was a dell part complete with the baffle/mount and was literally brand new. and it has a regular delta fan sticker like what the datasheets show, I should also have 2 more of these to test tonight as well and if theyre not what they say they are, then theyre going back. Granted, at 2200rpm these still move quite a bit of air and outperform what I have., but I paid for an AFB1212H, not an M.

Edit: got 2 more today, same serial/batch, they all are in the 2150-2215rpm range. The stickers say 60cfm min and .34A. Either dell screwed up, these arent really deltas, or delta had a batch labeled wrong. Ive also tried wiring them straight to the PSU and wired a tach lead in, same rpms.

Do these look legit?


----------



## jtom320

:thumb:Are the AFB 1212L's a decent model? I found a guy selling them in bulk for 9 bucks a pop and I need 6 rad fans.

I'd like to end up putting my fans on a controller. Would a 20 watt/channel fan controller handle two deltas at once? They would not be running anywhere near there max speed.

The controller specifically I have is a Lamptron FC4.

I've been working on tracking down some AP-15s. But if these would essentially be just as good I'd rather save myself the 100-150 extra dollars they would cost me.

Edit: Also they only have the two pin connector. They would still be able to be voltage controlled correct?


----------



## RnRollie

seems to be different spec sheets between USA & Taiwan






















http://www.delta-americas.com/products/FanUploads/Specification/AFB1212H.pdf

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaveeee !!!!!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> :thumb:Are the AFB 1212L's a decent model? I found a guy selling them in bulk for 9 bucks a pop and I need 6 rad fans.
> 
> I'd like to end up putting my fans on a controller. Would a 20 watt/channel fan controller handle two deltas at once? They would not be running anywhere near there max speed.
> 
> The controller specifically I have is a Lamptron FC4.
> 
> I've been working on tracking down some AP-15s. But if these would essentially be just as good I'd rather save myself the 100-150 extra dollars they would cost me.
> 
> Edit: Also they only have the two pin connector. They would still be able to be voltage controlled correct?


Yup they are very decent.

HO! it will handle 10 of these fans no problem ... people have misconceptions that all deltas are loud and power hungry.

Yup indeed.

Of course yeah but no RPM monitoring.


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yup they are very decent.
> 
> HO! it will handle 10 of these fans no problem ... people have misconceptions that all deltas are loud and power hungry.
> 
> Yup indeed.
> 
> Of course yeah but no RPM monitoring.


Thanks bro. I have three 1212h models I really like. They downvolt really well excellent fans overall. These will basically be on the other side of those three. On a 240 UT60/120 V3. And then I need three more pushing air through a 360 XT45 as exhaust.

Also real quick.

I have a 750D. RX 120 is intaking air on floor, UT60 is intaking in front. 120 fan slot is intaking in back. And my XT45 is exhausting out the top. Best configuration correct? Or should I turn the XT's fans around and exhaust out the back?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> Thanks bro. I have three 1212h models I really like. They downvolt really well excellent fans overall. These will basically be on the other side of those three. On a 240 UT60/120 V3. And then I need three more pushing air through a 360 XT45 as exhaust.
> 
> Also real quick.
> 
> I have a 750D. RX 120 is intaking air on floor, UT60 is intaking in front. 120 fan slot is intaking in back. And my XT45 is exhausting out the top. Best configuration correct? Or should I turn the XT's fans around and exhaust out the back?


Yup it's fine.


----------



## nick779

Quick question, my fan headers are rated at 1A (Im assuming continuous) is there any harm in running 2 AFBs because when they initially spin up they burst around .6A but quickly drop down to their rated spec of .19A. Is that something to really worry about?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Quick question, my fan headers are rated at 1A (Im assuming continuous) is there any harm in running 2 AFBs because when they initially spin up they burst around .6A but quickly drop down to their rated spec of .19A. Is that something to really worry about?


Their burst current is 0.35A not 0.6A. But anyway it doesn't matter.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> seems to be different spec sheets between USA & Taiwan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.delta-americas.com/products/FanUploads/Specification/AFB1212H.pdf
> 
> Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaveeee !!!!!


They both have the same specs. The "blue sheet" from taiwan lists the surge power. white sheet is usually not hosted on the taiwan servers


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Quick question, my fan headers are rated at 1A (Im assuming continuous) is there any harm in running 2 AFBs because when they initially spin up they burst around .6A but quickly drop down to their rated spec of .19A. Is that something to really worry about?
> 
> 
> 
> Their burst current is 0.35A not 0.6A. But anyway it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

Just checked and my CPU header supports either pwm or 100% on, no voltage control. So non pwm afbs are out of the question. Any suggestions for a fan with at least 4mmH20, 70cfm that's pwm and under 38db? 120x120x25 only
I haven't had much luck with pwm deltas on eBay so A part number or links would be great too. I'm even open to digikey too


----------



## RnRollie

very difficult to have 4mm H²O in a 25mm fan ANd when it can be reached, then its gonna be +38db

All other params can be reached

AFC1212D ?
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=36_407_696&sort=20a&main_page=index&filter_id=45
AUB1212H?
http://www.delta-americas.com/products/FanUploads/Specification/AUB1212H-SM00(CK15).pdf

eLoop
http://www.blacknoise.com/en/products/it/8/Noiseblocker-NB_eLoop_Series_120mm
http://www.blacknoise.com/downloads/datasheets/8/TData_eloop120_122012_de.pdf

A SanAce
https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/
https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/product_db_e/coolingfan/dcfan/dc_fan_detail.php?master_id=2831

OR you have to get a fan controller to use those AFB1212H(m)'s

If the Phanteks FAN hub would be available yet, then that would allow using Voltage fans with a PWM signal. But as far as i know you have to get it out of China/Taiwan on a slow boat.
Check out the Phanteks Owner section
http://www.overclock.net/t/1418637/official-case-phanteks-club-enthoo-primo-enthoo-pro-lovers-owners/4300_100#post_22523478

Alternative would be a sunbeamtech Rheosmart IF you find them
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_48&products_id=30058


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Just checked and my CPU header supports either pwm or 100% on, no voltage control. So non pwm afbs are out of the question. Any suggestions for a fan with at least 4mmH20, 70cfm that's pwm and under 38db? 120x120x25 only
> I haven't had much luck with pwm deltas on eBay so A part number or links would be great too. I'm even open to digikey too


Why not buy the AFB1212HHE you linked me?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-A1186-Case-Fan-Used-in-Ram-Cage-and-CPU-Delta-AFB1212HHE-/271299739350?pt=US_CPU_Fans_Heatsinks&hash=item3f2ab97ed6
If you are really running out of luck
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8565/fan-531/Delta_120_x_25mm_High_Speed_PWM_Fan_-_11311_CFM_AFC1212D.html
These aren't too shabby though.


----------



## ganzosrevenge

Noctua's IndustrialPPC fans are at 3.94mm H2O, see Noctua NF-F12 Industrial @ 2000rpm

The 3000rpm one is: Noctua NF-F12 @ 3000rpm. .5A and 7.6mm Static Pressure.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ganzosrevenge*
> 
> Noctua's IndustrialPPC fans are at 3.94mm H2O, see Noctua NF-F12 Industrial @ 2000rpm
> 
> The 3000rpm one is: Noctua NF-F12 @ 3000rpm. .5A and 7.6mm Static Pressure.


Noctuas are banned here. And they are hardly impressive either compared to delta. And also they are FAR more expensive than any others.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Just checked and my CPU header supports either pwm or 100% on, no voltage control. So non pwm afbs are out of the question. Any suggestions for a fan with at least 4mmH20, 70cfm that's pwm and under 38db? 120x120x25 only
> I haven't had much luck with pwm deltas on eBay so A part number or links would be great too. I'm even open to digikey too
> 
> 
> 
> Why not buy the AFB1212HHE you linked me?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-A1186-Case-Fan-Used-in-Ram-Cage-and-CPU-Delta-AFB1212HHE-/271299739350?pt=US_CPU_Fans_Heatsinks&hash=item3f2ab97ed6
> If you are really running out of luck
> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8565/fan-531/Delta_120_x_25mm_High_Speed_PWM_Fan_-_11311_CFM_AFC1212D.html
> These aren't too shabby though.
Click to expand...

I didn't realize they were 38mm fans, I found a datasheet detailing the pwm characteristics of those fans and at 30% they were spinning at 1750rpm which is a bit high, I'd like to be able to throttle down to ~800-900 for idle.

No Noctua fans please, I'm not spending $30+ for a fan


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I didn't realize they were 38mm fans, I found a datasheet detailing the pwm characteristics of those fans and at 30% they were spinning at 1750rpm which is a bit high, I'd like to be able to throttle down to ~800-900 for idle.
> 
> No Noctua fans please, I'm not spending $30+ for a fan


Most fans I've come across even the 3000rpm variety goes down to 550-750 @ 20%.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I didn't realize they were 38mm fans, I found a datasheet detailing the pwm characteristics of those fans and at 30% they were spinning at 1750rpm which is a bit high, I'd like to be able to throttle down to ~800-900 for idle.
> 
> No Noctua fans please, I'm not spending $30+ for a fan
> 
> 
> 
> Most fans I've come across even the 3000rpm variety goes down to 550-750 @ 20%.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately my stupid motherboard doesn't allow anything below 30% duty cycle.


----------



## giygas

if you have no front drive cages and front and bottom intake fans will the air effectively get pushed upwards towards the CPU cooler?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *giygas*
> 
> if you have no front drive cages and front and bottom intake fans will the air effectively get pushed upwards towards the CPU cooler?


Air in a properly ventilated case is not so slow that it will rise upwards.


----------



## nick779

Heres the datasheet for that fan with pwm stats.

http://www.delta-americas.com/products/FanUploads/Specification/AFC1212D-F00.pdf

I found an actual graph from another forum with the RPM/duty cycle graph, and it showed that the fan totally turns off under 1400rpm at 20% duty cycle. I would link it but I cant find it again.

I think im just going to throw this on the back burner, because the sp120s work, just not as well as Id like, I just wish it was as simple as tossing 2 afb1212Ms in there and calling it a day., but leave it to asus to ruin that.

Oh well, thanks for all the suggestions.

EDIT: I cant believe I missed this:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Alternative would be a sunbeamtech Rheosmart IF you find them
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_48&products_id=30058


That controller is exactly what im looking for, but the reviews dont seem very appealing.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Heres the datasheet for that fan with pwm stats.
> 
> http://www.delta-americas.com/products/FanUploads/Specification/AFC1212D-F00.pdf
> 
> I found an actual graph from another forum with the RPM/duty cycle graph, and it showed that the fan totally turns off under 1400rpm at 20% duty cycle. I would link it but I cant find it again.
> 
> I think im just going to throw this on the back burner, because the sp120s work, just not as well as Id like, I just wish it was as simple as tossing 2 afb1212Ms in there and calling it a day., but leave it to asus to ruin that.
> 
> Oh well, thanks for all the suggestions.


No. D fans have different PWM curves and also AFC1212D is the only oddball. Many of my deltas are PWM and they respond like any other PWM fan in the market.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Alternative would be a sunbeamtech Rheosmart IF you find them
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_48&products_id=30058


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> No. D fans have different PWM curves and also AFC1212D is the only oddball. Many of my deltas are PWM and they respond like any other PWM fan in the market.


Do you have a PWM AFB1212HH 25mm that you could check the rpm at 30%, my mobo cant go below 30% duty cycle so I was just hoping you had an idea or could check.

I found 2 on ebay for roughly $18 each shipped.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Do you have a PWM AFB1212HH 25mm that you could check the rpm at 30%, my mobo cant go below 30% duty cycle so I was just hoping you had an idea or could check.
> 
> I found 2 on ebay for roughly $18 each shipped.


I'll do it tomorrow. All my fans is attached to one poor header at this point.

Found some for ya
http://cwc-group.com/8008944.html
Or
http://cwc-group.com/nm4712cofap4.html

Forgot about cwc


----------



## ganzosrevenge

Dave,

Which 120mm x 25mm and 140mm x 25mm fans do you recommend?

Cost isn't an issue, but PWM ability IS.

Jason


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ganzosrevenge*
> 
> Dave,
> 
> Which 120mm x 25mm and 140mm x 25mm fans do you recommend?
> 
> Cost isn't an issue, but PWM ability IS.
> 
> Jason


12025?
http://cwc-group.com/8008944.html
Or
http://cwc-group.com/nm4712cofap4.html

14025?
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/21850/fan-1272/Phanteks_140mm_x_25mm_UFB_Bearing_PWM_Fan_w_Speed_Adapter_-_Black_Frame_White_Blade_PH-F140XP-BK.html

Not for heatsinks that's for sure.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/15137/fan-960/Deep_Cool_UF140-X_140mm_x_25mm_Ultra_Silent_PWM_Fan_w_De-Vibration_TPE_Cover_120140mm_Mounting_Hole_Pattern.html
Or this but they are low speed







And they are quiet enough to not need PWM


----------



## ganzosrevenge

I need 2 140mms in the front, a 120mm out back

and i'm going with an H220X for the CPU.

So I want basically, TONS of positive pressure and a powerhouse exhaust.

I can't see the specs on your links

Jason


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ganzosrevenge*
> 
> I need 2 140mms in the front, a 120mm out back
> 
> and i'm going with an H220X for the CPU.
> 
> So I want basically, TONS of positive pressure and a powerhouse exhaust.
> 
> I can't see the specs on your links
> 
> Jason


The AVC is fine, it's got plenty of static pressure. As is the NMB.
For specs on the phanteks please google it. Same for the deepcool

Those 140mm fans will do you fine then









NOTE : I've had every single fan listed there before.


----------



## ganzosrevenge

What about:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835706036&cm_re=120mm_case_fan-_-35-706-036-_-Product

it's under 1 amp and it's a delta. I just don't want to blow up any PWM controllers.

Mobo: Maximus VII Gene.

Jason


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ganzosrevenge*
> 
> What about:
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835706036&cm_re=120mm_case_fan-_-35-706-036-_-Product
> 
> it's under 1 amp and it's a delta. I just don't want to blow up any PWM controllers.
> 
> Mobo: Maximus VII Gene.
> 
> Jason


Look at the previous page, that's apparently an oddball fan that doesn't follow traditional pwm behavior. At 25% duty cycle it's still at 50% rpm.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Do you have a PWM AFB1212HH 25mm that you could check the rpm at 30%, my mobo cant go below 30% duty cycle so I was just hoping you had an idea or could check.
> 
> I found 2 on ebay for roughly $18 each shipped.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll do it tomorrow. All my fans is attached to one poor header at this point.
> 
> Found some for ya
> http://cwc-group.com/8008944.html
> Or
> http://cwc-group.com/nm4712cofap4.html
> 
> Forgot about cwc
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave, I'm looking forward to the results.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Look at the previous page, that's apparently an oddball fan that doesn't follow traditional pwm behavior. At 25% duty cycle it's still at 50% rpm.
> Thanks Dave, I'm looking forward to the results.


Good news, since i was opening my side panel to remove a HDD even a AFB1212SH is 1050rpm @ 30%
I recommend you install speedfan though and use fan control curves.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Look at the previous page, that's apparently an oddball fan that doesn't follow traditional pwm behavior. At 25% duty cycle it's still at 50% rpm.
> Thanks Dave, I'm looking forward to the results.
> 
> 
> 
> Good news, since i was opening my side panel to remove a HDD even a AFB1212SH is 1050rpm @ 30%
> I recommend you install speedfan though and use fan control curves.
Click to expand...

Fantastic. If needed I can use speed fan or fan xpert 2 for my motherboard.

I found 2 AFB1212HH pwm on eBay for $12 each, unfortunately they're coming from Poland lol so I have to wait.

At least I can finish this project, eventually I'll get 38mms to replace the flexes, but that can wait.


----------



## jtom320

Is there any difference between the 1212L model with the R00 number at the end and the one without other then the third wire?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> Is there any difference between the 1212L model with the R00 number at the end and the one without other then the third wire?


2 wire fans are a bit rare but R00 means it doesn't have a frequency generator (RPM readout/signal gen) but instead just a locked rotor signal.


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 2 wire fans are a bit rare but R00 means it doesn't have a frequency generator (RPM readout/signal gen) but instead just a locked rotor signal.


You answered this question above but just to doublecheck the two wire models can still be volt controlled? Just not have the RPM read?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> You answered this question above but just to doublecheck the two wire models can still be volt controlled? Just not have the RPM read?


Yup.


----------



## chinmi

hello dave, can i get some advice please. curently my case is a Corsair Air 540
with a room for motherboard and fan setup like this :


Front: 2 x 140mm (included), 3 x 120mm (pre-spaced for radiators)
Top: 2 x 140mm or 2 x 120mm (pre-spaced for radiators)
Rear: 1 x 140mm (included) or 1 x 120mm

And here's the setup that I currently using :

h80 AIO in the back in 2 fan push pull configuration. setup as *exhaust*, and the fan that came with it has a spec of :
Fan Airflow 46 - 92 CFM
Fan Static Pressure 1.6 - 7.7mm/H20

2x af140 on top as *exhaust* (these were the default fans that came with the case) with a spec of :
Fan Airflow 66.4 CFM
Fan Static Pressure 0.80 mm/H20

3x af120 on the front as *intake.* (i got it for cheap, buying it 2nd handed). with a spec of :
Fan Airflow 52.19 CFM
Fan Static Pressure 0.75 mm/H20

All fan running directly from the PSU in 12v mode. Am I using the correct fan configuration ? I'm aiming for positive air pressure. reading your 1st post it seems that my top 140mm set up as exhaust is not efficient because it will suck up all the fresh air coming from the front. should I change the top fans as intake rather the exhaust ??

I'm still searching for jetflo120, it's so rare in my country, and when I can find one it's so god damn expensive








if only I can find 3 of it, i'm gonna use it as front intake.

thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chinmi*
> 
> hello dave, can i get some advice please. curently my case is a Corsair Air 540
> with a room for motherboard and fan setup like this :
> 
> 
> Front: 2 x 140mm (included), 3 x 120mm (pre-spaced for radiators)
> Top: 2 x 140mm or 2 x 120mm (pre-spaced for radiators)
> Rear: 1 x 140mm (included) or 1 x 120mm
> 
> And here's the setup that I currently using :
> 
> h80 AIO in the back in 2 fan push pull configuration. setup as *exhaust*, and the fan that came with it has a spec of :
> Fan Airflow 46 - 92 CFM
> Fan Static Pressure 1.6 - 7.7mm/H20
> 
> 2x af140 on top as *exhaust* (these were the default fans that came with the case) with a spec of :
> Fan Airflow 66.4 CFM
> Fan Static Pressure 0.80 mm/H20
> 
> 3x af120 on the front as *intake.* (i got it for cheap, buying it 2nd handed). with a spec of :
> Fan Airflow 52.19 CFM
> Fan Static Pressure 0.75 mm/H20
> 
> All fan running directly from the PSU in 12v mode. Am I using the correct fan configuration ? I'm aiming for positive air pressure. reading your 1st post it seems that my top 140mm set up as exhaust is not efficient because it will suck up all the fresh air coming from the front. should I change the top fans as intake rather the exhaust ??
> 
> I'm still searching for jetflo120, it's so rare in my country, and when I can find one it's so god damn expensive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if only I can find 3 of it, i'm gonna use it as front intake.
> 
> thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.


Your specs are a bit off on the h80 fan, they claim 4mmh20 here.

http://www.corsair.com/en/hydro-series-h80i-high-performance-liquid-cpu-cooler

Im sure Dave will chime in, but id get the h80 on a PWM header so you will keep more positive pressure, and change any fan that has a filter on it for intake to an SP120 and leave the AF120 for exhaust.

Something else to add, check the RPMs of those fans if you can, I got an h105 that was supposed to have the 2700rpm versions of the sp120 and it had the regular 2350rpm versions installed. Its been a week now since I sent the support ticket to corsair and still no response.


----------



## chinmi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Your specs are a bit off on the h80 fan, they claim 4mmh20 here.
> 
> http://www.corsair.com/en/hydro-series-h80i-high-performance-liquid-cpu-cooler
> 
> Im sure Dave will chime in, but id get the h80 on a PWM header so you will keep more positive pressure, and change any fan that has a filter on it for intake to an SP120 and leave the AF120 for exhaust.
> 
> Something else to add, check the RPMs of those fans if you can, I got an h105 that was supposed to have the 2700rpm versions of the sp120 and it had the regular 2350rpm versions installed. Its been a week now since I sent the support ticket to corsair and still no response.


i'm using the old h80 not the "i" version, somehow the old h80 have higher static pressure then the new i version.
http://www.corsair.com/en/hydro-series-h80-high-performance-liquid-cpu-cooler

i never actually check the rpm cause i run it directly from the power supply, thus it's always 12v ane no rpm reading... gonna try plugging some of it to a pwm on the mobo and check the rpm then...
i do have a manual fan controller like this :



i think i'm gonna try using a lower voltage for the exhaust to maintain positive air pressure then.
right now i'm stuck with this af fan, maybe if i got the cash gonna upgrade the intake af120 to the sp120 or maybe the jetflo 120


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chinmi*
> 
> h80 AIO in the back in 2 fan push pull configuration. setup as exhaust, and the fan that came with it has a spec of :
> Fan Airflow 46 - 92 CFM
> Fan Static Pressure 1.6 - 7.7mm/H20
> 
> 2x af140 on top as exhaust (these were the default fans that came with the case) with a spec of :
> Fan Airflow 66.4 CFM
> Fan Static Pressure 0.80 mm/H20
> 
> 3x af120 on the front as intake. (i got it for cheap, buying it 2nd handed). with a spec of :
> Fan Airflow 52.19 CFM
> Fan Static Pressure 0.75 mm/H20
> 
> All fan running directly from the PSU in 12v mode. Am I using the correct fan configuration ? I'm aiming for positive air pressure. reading your 1st post it seems that my top 140mm set up as exhaust is not efficient because it will suck up all the fresh air coming from the front. should I change the top fans as intake rather the exhaust ??
> 
> I'm still searching for jetflo120, it's so rare in my country, and when I can find one it's so god damn expensive
> if only I can find 3 of it, i'm gonna use it as front intake.
> 
> thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.


Yup top fans intake and those are the wrong fans to use for intake anyway because it's got no static pressure unless you enjoy a case full of dust.
How about SP120?


----------



## afokke

My research indicates that in general positive pressure is more beneficial than negative pressure. Is it necessary to have the same number of intake and exhaust fans? I'm planning on having 3 intake fans. 2 will be up front and one will be on the bottom. Case actually has 2 bottom fan fan mounts but one of them is right next to the power supply, so if I put a fan there it will be useless because it will just be blowing on the cables. I just want one exhaust on the back. Not planning on putting at the top. Is this a good plan?


----------



## nick779

Dave, regarding these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-A1186-Case-Fan-Used-in-Ram-Cage-and-CPU-Delta-AFB1212HHE-/271299739350?pt=US_CPU_Fans_Heatsinks&hash=item3f2ab97ed6

Do you know off hand if mac motherboards use the same fan pin layout as pc?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Dave, regarding these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-A1186-Case-Fan-Used-in-Ram-Cage-and-CPU-Delta-AFB1212HHE-/271299739350?pt=US_CPU_Fans_Heatsinks&hash=item3f2ab97ed6
> 
> Do you know off hand if mac motherboards use the same fan pin layout as pc?


No idea.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *afokke*
> 
> My research indicates that in general positive pressure is more beneficial than negative pressure. Is it necessary to have the same number of intake and exhaust fans? I'm planning on having 3 intake fans. 2 will be up front and one will be on the bottom. Case actually has 2 bottom fan fan mounts but one of them is right next to the power supply, so if I put a fan there it will be useless because it will just be blowing on the cables. I just want one exhaust on the back. Not planning on putting at the top. Is this a good plan?


More intake over exhaust, also the intake fans will definitely have less airflow so the best scenario is 1 exhaust the rest intakes


----------



## chinmi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yup top fans intake and those are the wrong fans to use for intake anyway because it's got no static pressure unless you enjoy a case full of dust.
> How about SP120?


thanks for the advice dave, gonna change the top exhaust as intake asap.
the sp 120 is rare in my country that the price of THE QUIET sp120 edition match the price of the jetflo 120. while the Performance SP120 is pricier then jetflo 120 by aroun $5 per fan.

so since you said that the jetflo gonna be better in term of cfm and pressure, i'll probably gonna get the jetflo next month... just need to wait for my next salary to come out lol









so should I change all fans to jetflo ? 2x on h80 rad. 2x on top intake. 3x on front intake ??


----------



## [CyGnus]

Those Jetflo fans are really loud though, but if that is not an issue go for it


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> Those Jetflo fans are really loud though, but if that is not an issue go for it


Loud? SP120 is even louder if anything.


----------



## [CyGnus]

DaveLT yup i know my fans of choice are Noctuas NF -F12 (cooelrs and rads) and Enermax TB Silence UCTB12 case fans and if on budget Noiseblocker XL2 for case fans


----------



## jtom320

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> DaveLT yup i know my fans of choice are Noctuas NF -F12 (cooelrs and rads) and Enermax TB Silence UCTB12 case fans and if on budget Noiseblocker XL2 for case fans


You've made a mistake.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> DaveLT yup i know my fans of choice are Noctuas NF -F12 (cooelrs and rads) and Enermax TB Silence UCTB12 case fans and if on budget Noiseblocker XL2 for case fans


Welcome to the wrong place


----------



## Dyaems

Dave, is an 80mm AFB0812SH any good? Or should I look at other AFB models?


----------



## [CyGnus]

DaveLT lol, i do like silence


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[CyGnus]*
> 
> DaveLT lol, i do like silence


Who doesn't? Most here fall into the trap that lower noise = better. It is not. You need to have sufficient airflow so that other parts don't run hot or loud.
Also silence cases are just nonsensical. Their front doors restricts airflow so heavily that my friend ended up just removing the door (Fractal Define Mini) making it a normal case anyway. And not to forget that they cost more in the first place.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dyaems*
> 
> Dave, is an 80mm AFB0812SH any good? Or should I look at other AFB models?


Your choice. It's good but I can't say anything about their minimum speed unless I have it.


----------



## inVain

unplug your fans out, and you'll got absolute silence.
problem solved!


----------



## afokke

I always hear high static pressure is good for pushing air through heat sinks and radiators. How important is it for overcoming restriction from intake filters?

Are the Cooler Master Sickleflow 120 fans good? I like their LED pattern and they seem quite and move decent air.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *afokke*
> 
> I always hear high static pressure is good for pushing air through heat sinks and radiators. How important is it for overcoming restriction from intake filters?
> 
> Are the Cooler Master Sickleflow 120 fans good? I like their LED pattern and they seem quite and move decent air.


They are rubbish and the worst POS you can come across.

Their ratings are magical. I don't care that I do reviews for CM but if it's rubbish it's rubbish.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *afokke*
> 
> I always hear high static pressure is good for pushing air through heat sinks and radiators. How important is it for overcoming restriction from intake filters?
> 
> Are the Cooler Master Sickleflow 120 fans good? I like their LED pattern and they seem quite and move decent air.


In general yes... fans with higher SP are more likely to be able to overcome obstruction/restrictions no matter if it are radiators, heatsinks or filters.. restriction is restriction.

Static Pressure alone is not the whole story though, ideally you want something with a "nice" PQ curve, the balance between SP & CFM so to say.
Some graphs have been posted earlier in this thread.. so just browse up

for illustration: look a the PQ of this Delta
www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFB120x120x25.4mm.pdf


----------



## afokke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They are rubbish and the worst POS you can come across.
> 
> Their ratings are magical. I don't care that I do reviews for CM but if it's rubbish it's rubbish.


Aww, what's so bad about them?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *afokke*
> 
> Aww, what's so bad about them?


Zero static pressure, overrated CFM and overrated noise level. It is VERY noisy.


----------



## afokke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Zero static pressure, overrated CFM and overrated noise level. It is VERY noisy.


Bummer







I'll be after new fans again. I avoid Noctua because they look terrible, and I don't want the Cooler Master JetFlo because they are the loudest fans I've ever had. Won't be able to deal with four of those in one case.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *afokke*
> 
> Bummer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be after new fans again. I avoid Noctua because they look terrible, and I don't want the Cooler Master JetFlo because they are the loudest fans I've ever had. Won't be able to deal with four of those in one case.


They're PWM for a reason and also in terms of professional proper fans they are on the quiet side already.

The bonus for all that noise is massive airflow and decent static pressure


----------



## afokke

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They're PWM for a reason and also in terms of professional proper fans they are on the quiet side already.
> 
> The bonus for all that noise is massive airflow and decent static pressure


I actually have used the Sickleflow before, but that was back when I knew nothing about what to look for in fans and case cooling, so I didn't pay much attention to fan quality. I don't remember them being loud though, unless I had it right up against an intake grill. Then it became about as loud as a JetFlo at full speed maybe.


----------



## nick779

false
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> No idea.
> More intake over exhaust, also the intake fans will definitely have less airflow so the best scenario is 1 exhaust the rest intakes


Found this:

"I have a Mac Pro enclosure and it uses fans made specifically for Apple, but I think I've figured out how they work. Now I just want to get them working with the temp control from the motherboard.

Here's the situation:

These fans are 4 wire fans, but the 4th wire doesn't seem to be PWM. They work in the same way, except that the control wire seems to require analog 0-5V rather than PWM. When I connect it to the motherboard header, the fan does not turn at all. I've even tried disconnecting the 4th wire in order to set it in full speed mode (PWM specs) and it still doesn't turn. I am currently controlling the speed by connecting the 5V power line from the PSU to the control wire of the fan and using a voltage divider circuit with pot to reduce the speed. The fan is at full speed with 5V, but at about 1.9-2.0V it stops.

I'm wondering if there is a way to convert either the PWM signal from the motherboard to a 0-5V analog signal or reducing the 12V pin of the motherboard header to a 0-5V signal while retaining the variable output."

Figures a $8 AFB1212HHE PWM was too good to be true.


----------



## DaveLT

Welp.

The easiest solution from converting PWM to a 0-5v generator is simple ... only to electronics hobbyists or actual EEs


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Welp.
> 
> The easiest solution from converting PWM to a 0-5v generator is simple ... only to electronics hobbyists or actual EEs


Wouldn't that be as simple as tossing a small capacitor on the pwm line?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Wouldn't that be as simple as tossing a small capacitor on the pwm line?


IIRC PWM is 12v peak.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> false
> Found this:
> 
> "I have a Mac Pro enclosure and it uses fans made specifically for Apple, but I think I've figured out how they work. Now I just want to get them working with the temp control from the motherboard.
> 
> Here's the situation:
> 
> These fans are 4 wire fans, but the 4th wire doesn't seem to be PWM. They work in the same way, except that the control wire seems to require analog 0-5V rather than PWM. When I connect it to the motherboard header, the fan does not turn at all. I've even tried disconnecting the 4th wire in order to set it in full speed mode (PWM specs) and it still doesn't turn. I am currently controlling the speed by connecting the 5V power line from the PSU to the control wire of the fan and using a voltage divider circuit with pot to reduce the speed. The fan is at full speed with 5V, but at about 1.9-2.0V it stops.
> 
> I'm wondering if there is a way to convert either the PWM signal from the motherboard to a 0-5V analog signal or reducing the 12V pin of the motherboard header to a 0-5V signal while retaining the variable output."
> 
> Figures a $8 AFB1212HHE PWM was too good to be true.


Being Mac it's not unthinkable they do things differently








There are a few PWM variants/standards : 3v , 5v , 25khz, 15khz, low-to-high or high-to-low (0-5v or 5-0v) all these are "legal"

So, if the rest of the world chooses to use 0-5v , 25khz PWM control/signal, it kinda makes sense for Apple (& Delll) to use one of the other variants, thus forcing customers to stick with the brand... and pay double the money for a fan which has the circuit to work with high-to-low @ 15khz iso low-to-high @ 25khz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Wouldn't that be as simple as tossing a small capacitor on the pwm line?


given that most common PWM on MB is 0-5v @ 25khz... that would have to be one hell of a small capacitor, unless you just want a "steady" 5v.


----------



## DaveLT

Well Dell fans (EG : AFC1212DE) are pretty much controlled the same way as normal fans are.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> false
> Found this:
> 
> "I have a Mac Pro enclosure and it uses fans made specifically for Apple, but I think I've figured out how they work. Now I just want to get them working with the temp control from the motherboard.
> 
> Here's the situation:
> 
> These fans are 4 wire fans, but the 4th wire doesn't seem to be PWM. They work in the same way, except that the control wire seems to require analog 0-5V rather than PWM. When I connect it to the motherboard header, the fan does not turn at all. I've even tried disconnecting the 4th wire in order to set it in full speed mode (PWM specs) and it still doesn't turn. I am currently controlling the speed by connecting the 5V power line from the PSU to the control wire of the fan and using a voltage divider circuit with pot to reduce the speed. The fan is at full speed with 5V, but at about 1.9-2.0V it stops.
> 
> I'm wondering if there is a way to convert either the PWM signal from the motherboard to a 0-5V analog signal or reducing the 12V pin of the motherboard header to a 0-5V signal while retaining the variable output."
> 
> Figures a $8 AFB1212HHE PWM was too good to be true.
> 
> 
> 
> Being Mac it's not unthinkable they do things differently
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are a few PWM variants/standards : 3v , 5v , 25khz, 15khz, low-to-high or high-to-low (0-5v or 5-0v) all these are "legal"
> 
> So, if the rest of the world chooses to use 0-5v , 25khz PWM control/signal, it kinda makes sense for Apple (& Delll) to use one of the other variants, thus forcing customers to stick with the brand... and pay double the money for a fan which has the circuit to work with high-to-low @ 15khz iso low-to-high @ 25khz
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Wouldn't that be as simple as tossing a small capacitor on the pwm line?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> given that most common PWM on MB is 0-5v @ 25khz... that would have to be one hell of a small capacitor, unless you just want a "steady" 5v.
Click to expand...

It's been quite a few years since I was really crazy into hobby electronics, but I figured that if you can use a cap to stabilize input voltage, you can theoretically use one to smooth out a digital signal to an analog one. I have no idea what size I'd use though, it would be trial and error.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> It's been quite a few years since I was really crazy into hobby electronics, but I figured that if you can use a cap to stabilize input voltage, you can theoretically use one to smooth out a digital signal to an analog one. I have no idea what size I'd use though, it would be trial and error.


mobo PWM is 12v pull up IIRC* with 5v limit. So yes with a cap smoothing you might be able to do it.


----------



## Onyxian

What is the max amount of fans I could run off of one Molex connector? Would the fan controller in my case be fine if I use a y splitter on one of it's 3 connectors to add more fans? I plan to have 2 of the Fractal Silent Series R2 140mms on seperate connectors, and 2







Noctua NF-A14 FLXs







on one connector.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> What is the max amount of fans I could run off of one Molex connector? Would the fan controller in my case be fine if I use a y splitter on one of it's 3 connectors to add more fans? I plan to have 2 of the Fractal Silent Series R2 140mms on seperate connectors, and 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noctua NF-A14 FLXs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on one connector.


Depends on what sort of fans. For most fans the surge current is labelled on the sticker which means you should divide them by half and add together the total current of fans up to 1A.


----------



## nick779

Figured id post this here for everyone's reference.

This is an RPM/Duty cycle plot for the oddball AFB1212D



Seems pretty stupid of Delta to do this imo.

Source: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2207018


----------



## DaveLT

AFC1212D* This is an OEM fan after all.


----------



## Apolus

Hi Dave!

Greetings from Paraguay!

I've been reading the forum since 2 weeks and I came across with this great topic. I learned a lot in a short time!









I just registered lol







.

I want to consult you the following:

I have a case BitFenix Prodigy and wanted to know if the following setup fans is fine:



Any recommendations?

Edit 1:
I forgot to mention that I have the following components:

Motherboard: m-ITX MSI Z97i Gaming AC
CPU: Intel Core i7 4770K (this was a gift







)
RAM: 2 x 4GB Kingston 1300
GPU: Nvidia GeForce 650 Ti 1Gb
PSU: XFX Pro 750W non modular
Drive: Seagate 500gb HDD x1 for OS
Seagate 1Tb HDD x1 for mass storage

Thank you







!

P.D.: sorry for my english.


----------



## DaveLT

The layout is fine ... All I sense is a bottleneck from your 1300 ram. apparently. I hope you meant 1600 and also 1300 doesn't exist 1333 does.







I do suggest you change the 212 evo fan for a jetflo.


----------



## Apolus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> The layout is fine ... All I sense is a bottleneck from your 1300 ram. apparently. I hope you meant 1600 and also 1300 doesn't exit 1333 does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do suggest you change the 212 evo fan for a jetflo.


LoL my bad, its a 1333









I'm saving for 2x8g 1600

Ok!!! will change the stock evo fan for a JetFlo.

Thanks Dave!!!!


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Just wanted to say that I have 2 JetFlo's....seriously freaking amazing CFM and build quality and no other fan has LED in the center...looks damn good. I switched out my Cougars for them. They do get loud on the higher RPM but it's a different kind of noise, not a whine type but more just lots of air rushing. I pray to the fan gods that they make a 140mm version. Although for my next build I am going for broke and grabbing 4x140mm Noctua NF-A14 Industrial PPC 3000rpm fans. I just hope I can buy a Corsair Link for them. I am a huge advocate of wind-tunnel style straight airflow; never liked the classic S/Z shape.

http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=84&lng=en


----------



## Onyxian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Just wanted to say that I have 2 JetFlo's....seriously freaking amazing CFM and build quality and no other fan has LED in the center...looks damn good. I switched out my Cougars for them. They do get loud on the higher RPM but it's a different kind of noise, not a whine type but more just lots of air rushing. I pray to the fan gods that they make a 140mm version. Although for my next build I am going for broke and grabbing 4x140mm Noctua NF-A14 Industrial PPC 3000rpm fans. I just hope I can buy a Corsair Link for them. I am a huge advocate of wind-tunnel style straight airflow; never liked the classic S/Z shape.
> 
> http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=84&lng=en


Yeah I think I may get some of those 2000s in a couple months, and maybe an NZXT Sentry Mix 2. Though looking at prices on Amazon the 2000 is the same price as the 3000 I MAY get them. Need to do some more planning and such. Noise isn't THAT big of a deal to me since I sit right under an Air Conditioner anyway and that's all I can hear.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> Yeah I think I may get some of those 2000s in a couple months, and maybe an NZXT Sentry Mix 2. Though looking at prices on Amazon the 2000 is the same price as the 3000 I MAY get them. Need to do some more planning and such. Noise isn't THAT big of a deal to me since I sit right under an Air Conditioner anyway and that's all I can hear.


In my recent review I deduced NZXT fan controllers are just rubbish ... but a note, the industrial color scheme still isn't normal either ... Noctua says they get famed for their odd color scheme, more like infamous. Only the redux comes close to being normal but then again GTs are cheaper.

The industrial noctuas are too expensive >.>


----------



## Onyxian

Any recommendations on controllers then? I don't think I see any in the first post. I actually like the color of Noctua fans, doesn't really match anything but it reminds me of the bronze wheels I have on my car


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> Any recommendations on controllers then? I don't think I see any in the first post. I actually like the color of Noctua fans, doesn't really match anything but it reminds me of the bronze wheels I have on my car


Bronze wheels are nice ... but PC? Nah.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> In my recent review I deduced NZXT fan controllers are just rubbish ... but a note, the industrial color scheme still isn't normal either ... Noctua says they get famed for their odd color scheme, more like infamous. Only the redux comes close to being normal but then again GTs are cheaper.
> 
> The industrial noctuas are too expensive >.>


Hey, just wanted to add on the industrial ones, the brown part is just rubber padding and it slips right off. The industrial fans are super overkill and not really good value but I love the 3 phase motor and the "Captain, WE NEED MORE POWWAAAH" that 3000rpm would provide. Most of the time I'm gonna have them at the lowest RPM on a fan curve. They're going in a Rosewill Rise case and I want an extreme windtunnel effect. ;D


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Hey, just wanted to add on the industrial ones, the brown part is just rubber padding and it slips right off. The industrial fans are super overkill and not really good value but I love the 3 phase motor and the "Captain, WE NEED MORE POWWAAAH" that 3000rpm would provide. Most of the time I'm gonna have them at the lowest RPM on a fan curve. They're going in a Rosewill Rise case and I want an extreme windtunnel effect. ;D


My deltas have 4 phase


----------



## Onyxian

Completely understandable why you don't particularly like Noctuas. Makes much more sense that your chosen industrial fans are better value and.. Well better in most cases. Especially since I said noise isn't all that big of a deal to me. (As far as an iPhone app can tell. Ambient noise in my house is 55-60 dBA because of the AC like 4 feet above my head) I just personally actually LIKE the colors Noctua uses and I'm willing to spend a couple.. Or several bucks more for them. Just wanted to say that since I don't want to seem like I just blindly think they're better than everything.

Still asking for a good fan controller too


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> My deltas have 4 phase


*shakes fist*









But don't they use a much higher voltage? Do they come in 140mm?


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> x
> 
> Still asking for a good fan controller too


I think the only one I found that is worth it for independent PWN fans is the Corsair Link sadly.

Maybe worth a shot?
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12481/bus-247/Sunbeam_30W_Rheosmart_6_Channel_Smart_Fan_Controller_-_Black_PL-RS-6.html?tl=g47c17s240#blank

Definitely give another look around FrozenCPU.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> Completely understandable why you don't particularly like Noctuas. Makes much more sense that your chosen industrial fans are better value and.. Well better in most cases. Especially since I said noise isn't all that big of a deal to me. (As far as an iPhone app can tell. Ambient noise in my house is 55-60 dBA because of the AC like 4 feet above my head) I just personally actually LIKE the colors Noctua uses and I'm willing to spend a couple.. Or several bucks more for them. Just wanted to say that since I don't want to seem like I just blindly think they're better than everything.
> 
> Still asking for a good fan controller too


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> I think the only one I found that is worth it for independent PWN fans is the Corsair Link sadly.
> 
> Maybe worth a shot? http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12481/bus-247/Sunbeam_30W_Rheosmart_6_Channel_Smart_Fan_Controller_-_Black_PL-RS-6.html?tl=g47c17s240#blank


Corsair link is stupid expensive >.> noctuas are fine for voltage. If you want PWM just use mobo control ... through a "PWM Splitter" essentially PWM to mobo and power to molex.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> *shakes fist*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't they use a much higher voltage? Do they come in 140mm?


No way man. They use 12v most of the time unless the requirement is specific or the current is too high for 12v like in a FFB1424SHG


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> *shakes fist*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't they use a much higher voltage? Do they come in 140mm?


Meh my cheapo slider sentry works fine, Ive ended up not really even using it though, I prefer using a PWM splitter that pulls power from molex, and automating everything.

Delta makes 120mm fans that use up to 48V but most of them come in 12V flavors as well. I had a bunch of miscellaneous fans in my pc and theyre literally ALL deltas now because they undervolt very well (non PWM versions) and the PWM versions have a ridiculous amount of control (my AFB1212HHs will go from ~350rpm to 2800rpm and are pretty quiet imo) If you look around on ebay you can score PWM models for around $10-$20 and non PWM for $5-$12.

as for 140mms, I think only Sans Ace makes them and they start at $50, not really worth it IMO. Im very happy with the deltas.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Corsair link is stupid expensive >.> noctuas are fine for voltage. If you want PWM just use mobo control ... through a "PWM Splitter" essentially PWM to mobo and power to molex.
> No way man. They use 12v most of the time unless the requirement is specific or the current is too high for 12v like in a FFB1424SHG


Wanted the Corsair Link though because you can set each one independently. The splitter just makes them all work as one. I think it's the only device that can have different fan curves & profiles/settings to a specific piece of hardware. =/ If I'm going for 4 Noctua industrials, which is stupid expensive already, I think I should just go for the Link, bahaha. They seem to be out of stock though. =/

Going for a bit of an odd setup where I want each fan to be for a specific zone and ramp up and down based on the needs of the zone.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Wanted the Corsair Link though because you can set each one independently. The splitter just makes them all work as one. I think it's the only device that can have different fan curves & profiles/settings to a specific piece of hardware. =/ If I'm going for 4 Noctua industrials, which is stupid expensive already, I think I should just go for the Link, bahaha. They seem to be out of stock though. =/


Modern "enthusiast" (more like marketing opportunity) mobos stretching back to second gen X58 mobos from asus mostly had 5-6 4pin plugs that could be adjusted individually.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Modern "enthusiast" (more like marketing opportunity) mobos stretching back to second gen X58 mobos from asus mostly had 5-6 4pin plugs that could be adjusted individually.


I think I remember reading that only, at max, two are true PWM signals, even if they claim the rest are PWM too. I can't find the source on that though.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> I think I remember reading that only, at max, two are true PWM signals, even if they claim the rest are PWM too. I can't find the source on that though.


Not quite. They really are full on PWM signals.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Wanted the Corsair Link though because you can set each one independently. The splitter just makes them all work as one. I think it's the only device that can have different fan curves & profiles/settings to a specific piece of hardware. =/ If I'm going for 4 Noctua industrials, which is stupid expensive already, I think I should just go for the Link, bahaha. They seem to be out of stock though. =/
> 
> Going for a bit of an odd setup where I want each fan to be for a specific zone and ram up and down based on the needs of the zone.


Corsair link = junk
want to create temp controlled "zones"?
then:
-mCubed T-balancer
-Alphacool HeatMaster
-Koolance CTR
-Aquacomputer Aquaero 5 LT (the one without the LCD display)

.


----------



## twerk

Hi guys,

I'm looking for some fans for my upcoming build, I'll be using a fan controller so no need for PWM. What are the best 140mm case fans in terms of noise/performance ratio across their entire RPM range? I'm looking for fans that can run well at a very low RPM for daily usage but can also up to around 1800-2000 for benching. They must be black too. The new industrialPPC 2000rpm fans look promising, they are very expensive though.

Not really the right place to ask for a fan controller but my requirements are 30W per channel, potentiometers over PWM control, physical knobs for adjusting speed and an RPM/voltage readout. From the little research I've done it seems the Lamptron FC5 v3 fits the bill perfectly, but I'd just like to see if there are any better options.

Thanks.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Not quite. They really are full on PWM signals.


Signals maybe... but true channels?

Its easy enough to split a (cpu_fan) PWM channel into 4 headers on the MB itself... but you can still only use one channel and ramp/curve

afaik only real Top End and WorkStation boards have more as one PWM channel

in one of the other threads, been looking at an EVGA X79 "black" .. not exactly bargain bin material and it seems only ONE TRUE PWM channel/header : CPU_FAN1


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Not really the right place to ask for a fan controller but my requirements are 30W per channel, potentiometers over PWM control, physical knobs for adjusting speed and an RPM/voltage readout. From the little research I've done it seems the Lamptron FC5 v3 fits the bill perfectly, but I'd just like to see if there are any better options.
> 
> Thanks.


That Lamptron definitely seems to fit the exact needs you have. Looks pretty nice as well.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Not quite. They really are full on PWM signals.


Isnt there a hate thread on asus because they claim their boards have all PWM headers but only the CPU headers actually are PWM? I mean were talking flagship boards with only voltage control on all chassis headers. Some of the newer board use mechanical switches to set it into PWM mode, but my mobo while it has 3- 4pin headers, only the CPU is actually PWM.

I think Asus actually had an official statement saying all Z97 motherboards were going to have FULL Pwm control and not just the CPU headers like older chipsets.

Heres one of many threads.
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?37336-Need-help-with-fan-control-Noctu


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Isnt there a hate thread on asus because they claim their boards have all PWM headers but only the CPU headers actually are PWM? I mean were talking flagship boards with only voltage control on all chassis headers. Some of the newer board use mechanical switches to set it into PWM mode, but my mobo while it has 3- 4pin headers, only the CPU is actually PWM.
> 
> I think Asus actually had an official statement saying all Z97 motherboards were going to have FULL Pwm control and not just the CPU headers like older chipsets.
> 
> Heres one of many threads.
> http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?37336-Need-help-with-fan-control-Noctu


This really bugs me. It's 2014 and full PWM control is still rare. There are barely any devices for full PWM automated controls either. We're basically stuck using manual devices for total control at a reasonable price or bodged, after thoughts from higher end hardware. It doesn't feel like we've advanced at all. =/

Now when we're moving into a massive amount of "internet of things" and smart devices and all kinds of AI / logical goodies, we haven't moved up much in the actual smart fan management department.

Then again, on other forums too many people don't know the difference between 3pin and 4pin fans other than the number. And lots of people just think fans are some spinning simple thing that's not really worth a lot of thought.


----------



## inVain

dunno....
going from a silent to a sudden noisy environment's quite annoying to me (typical scenario while gaming),
so manual control still a winner to me


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> dunno....
> going from a silent to a sudden noisy environment's quite annoying to me (typical scenario while gaming),
> so manual control still a winner to me


It depends, I have mine set on a standard linear curve and when loading levels, it does get pretty annoying getting spikes of fan speed, but id rather have that and not have to deal with adjusting fan speeds constantly.

my only option for a smooth transition in speeds is to install fan xpert and use the fan spin up time feature, but thats just another unnecessary program to leave running.

Does speedfan have anything that would make the fan ramp up slower rather then spike to full speed? I may have to install it tonight and see


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> dunno....
> going from a silent to a sudden noisy environment's quite annoying to me (typical scenario while gaming),
> so manual control still a winner to me


Depends on the fans too. The new Noctua's have 3 phase PWM, so the spin ups and downs are much smoother and with the right program you can do some really elegant automated changes without annoying sudden whines (noise).



I feel like if you have to do it manually, well what's the point of having a computer in 2014? Manual just doesn't fit the tech level we are supposed to be in, in my opinion. Although, I'm not knocking the experience & total control of being able to manually do it all (I like knobs, I like old computers, etc). I just mean, it's a reasonable expectation to have your computer intelligently work out the fans at this point in time (including not spazzing out with RPMs for small temp changes).


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Signals maybe... but true channels?
> 
> Its easy enough to split a (cpu_fan) PWM channel into 4 headers on the MB itself... but you can still only use one channel and ramp/curve
> 
> afaik only real Top End and WorkStation boards have more as one PWM channel
> 
> in one of the other threads, been looking at an EVGA X79 "black" .. not exactly bargain bin material and it seems only ONE TRUE PWM channel/header : CPU_FAN1


I was thinking ASUS! P6X58-E boards. I was specifically looking at the P6X58-E WS and if they didn't have only one true PWM channel then there must be some voodoo magic for most asus boards that come out.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Isnt there a hate thread on asus because they claim their boards have all PWM headers but only the CPU headers actually are PWM? I mean were talking flagship boards with only voltage control on all chassis headers. Some of the newer board use mechanical switches to set it into PWM mode, but my mobo while it has 3- 4pin headers, only the CPU is actually PWM.
> 
> I think Asus actually had an official statement saying all Z97 motherboards were going to have FULL Pwm control and not just the CPU headers like older chipsets.
> 
> Heres one of many threads.
> http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?37336-Need-help-with-fan-control-Noctu


Yes. ASUS Z97 board have FULL PWM control. X79? check. Z87? check. It's just that formally the lowest limit fan xpert wants you to set the lowest was X58/Z68/X79/Z77 is 60% -_- and then 40% on z87. Then 20% on Z97.... If speedfan supported your board then overriding them is no issue.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> It depends, I have mine set on a standard linear curve and when loading levels, it does get pretty annoying getting spikes of fan speed, but id rather have that and not have to deal with adjusting fan speeds constantly.
> 
> my only option for a smooth transition in speeds is to install fan xpert and use the fan spin up time feature, but thats just another unnecessary program to leave running.
> 
> Does speedfan have anything that would make the fan ramp up slower rather then spike to full speed? I may have to install it tonight and see


Well it's not that modern but ... Meh. If you fan speeds are spiking so often it's time to check your mounting or your fan curve. On haswell though ... where spikes are very often ... I rather have the Fan Xpert even though it's absolute crap.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> This really bugs me. It's 2014 and full PWM control is still rare. There are barely any devices for full PWM automated controls either. We're basically stuck using manual devices for total control at a reasonable price or bodged, after thoughts from higher end hardware. It doesn't feel like we've advanced at all. =/
> 
> Now when we're moving into a massive amount of "internet of things" and smart devices and all kinds of AI / logical goodies, we haven't moved up much in the actual smart fan management department.
> 
> Then again, on other forums too many people don't know the difference between 3pin and 4pin fans other than the number. And lots of people just think fans are some spinning simple thing that's not really worth a lot of thought.


Uh-uh. AQC fan controllers. Not cheap ... but still fully automated PWM and the curves are set over USB.


----------



## deepor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> It depends, I have mine set on a standard linear curve and when loading levels, it does get pretty annoying getting spikes of fan speed, but id rather have that and not have to deal with adjusting fan speeds constantly.
> 
> my only option for a smooth transition in speeds is to install fan xpert and use the fan spin up time feature, but thats just another unnecessary program to leave running.
> 
> Does speedfan have anything that would make the fan ramp up slower rather then spike to full speed? I may have to install it tonight and see


No SpeedFan does not have something like this, at least not for the "advanced" fan thingy where you get to draw a curve to tie speed to temperature readings. It only has a setting where you can make it not change speed if the change is less than 4 °C for example.

I'd like to have a fan control program where you can write your own formulas. I'd try to do something where it keeps and updates a record of the temperature readings of the last minute or so. Then it takes the average temperature of that record and uses that number as input for the fan control curve. That should smooth things out.

It also seems like smart behavior to me because the heat-sinks or radiators don't instantly get hot when the cores record high temperatures. It needs some time before the heat-sink warms up and fans get to do something useful. So a delay and the fans slowly ramping up shouldn't be bad. Also, when load on the CPU and GPU stops, the heat-sink will still be warm for a while so the fans only slowly reducing their speed also does something useful.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I was thinking ASUS! P6X58-E boards. I was specifically looking at the P6X58-E WS and if they didn't have only one true PWM channel then there must be some voodoo magic for most asus boards that come out.
> Yes. ASUS Z97 board have FULL PWM control. X79? check. Z87? check. It's just that formally the lowest limit fan xpert wants you to set the lowest was X58/Z68/X79/Z77 is 60% -_- and then 40% on z87. Then 20% on Z97.... If speedfan supported your board then overriding them is no issue.
> Well it's not that modern but ... Meh. If you fan speeds are spiking so often it's time to check your mounting or your fan curve. On haswell though ... where spikes are very often ... I rather have the Fan Xpert even though it's absolute crap.
> Uh-uh. AQC fan controllers. Not cheap ... but still fully automated PWM and the curves are set over USB.


My z87 board will go down to 20% on CPU in the bios and only goes down to 60% on the chassis headers. All of them are 4 pin. When I open fan xpert it will go to 30%, but I confirmed its running voltage control with a DMM and a splitter.

Heres another post with 4 pin headers that arent PWM
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66283p=575840


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> My z87 board will go down to 20% on CPU in the bios and only goes down to 60% on the chassis headers. All of them are 4 pin. When I open fan xpert it will go to 30%, but I confirmed its running voltage control with a DMM and a splitter.
> 
> Heres another post with 4 pin headers that arent PWM
> http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66283p=575840


Have you set it to PWM only?


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Have you set it to PWM only?


I dont have that option in my bios or through fanxpert.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *deepor*
> 
> No SpeedFan does not have something like this, at least not for the "advanced" fan thingy where you get to draw a curve to tie speed to temperature readings. It only has a setting where you can make it not change speed if the change is less than 4 °C for example.
> 
> I'd like to have a fan control program where you can write your own formulas. I'd try to do something where it keeps and updates a record of the temperature readings of the last minute or so. Then it takes the average temperature of that record and uses that number as input for the fan control curve. That should smooth things out.
> 
> It also seems like smart behavior to me because the heat-sinks or radiators don't instantly get hot when the cores record high temperatures. It needs some time before the heat-sink warms up and fans get to do something useful. So a delay and the fans slowly ramping up shouldn't be bad. Also, when load on the CPU and GPU stops, the heat-sink will still be warm for a while so the fans only slowly reducing their speed also does something useful.


its called Aquacomputer Aquaero .. and if you use (water)temp sensors and not the internal CPU sensor, then there are no "spikes". And you can set fan profiles on about anything: sensors, hi-low, Delta temps, % of delta vs CPU, etc... THE ideal device for people with OCD









If you want less complex, or are on air... a decent fan controller which has temp probes like the RECON allows something similar (but much more basic) by using the probes stuck to the HS iso using the CPU internal sensor.

Ideally, all this "smart" stuff should "build-in" either on BIOS or on some advanced speedfan software.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I dont have that option in my bios or through fanxpert.


Most of the time, if you set it to "manual" (and 100%) in the BIOS, then speedfan can "work" with it.

But it all depends on the MB & Bios. IF Smart Fan or Quit Fan settings are present and it allows you to set a target temp & fan speed.. even if its rather basic, then you can set a VERY basic ramp on bios level.
In some cases Speedfan or the tuning soft which came with the MB can "take over" if set to "ON", in some cases Quiet fan needs to be set to "OFF" for Speefan to be able to take control.

Some BIOSes are of course a bit more advanced.. and some MB come with "tuning" software which allows to set the same or better as what the bios allows:

 

 

The above Asrock examples allow for TWO independend "curve/ramp targets" to be set, one fro CPU_1 , one for CHA_FAN1

CPU_FAN1+CPU_FAN2 is something special thou: two headers side by side: one a 4 pin PWM header next to a 3 pin Voltage header, god only knows how AsRock makes it work, probably a bucky between the two


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Most of the time, if you set it to "manual" (and 100%) in the BIOS, then speedfan can "work" with it.
> 
> But it all depends on the MB & Bios. IF Smart Fan or Quit Fan settings are present and it allows you to set a target temp & fan speed.. even if its rather basic, then you can set a VERY basic ramp on bios level.
> In some cases Speedfan or the tuning soft which came with the MB can "take over" if set to "ON", in some cases Quiet fan needs to be set to "OFF" for Speefan to be able to take control.
> 
> Some BIOSes are of course a bit more advanced.. and some MB come with "tuning" software which allows to set the same or better as what the bios allows:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above Asrock examples allow for TWO independend "curve/ramp targets" to be set, one fro CPU_1 , one for CHA_FAN1
> 
> CPU_FAN1+CPU_FAN2 is something special thou: two headers side by side: one a 4 pin PWM header next to a 3 pin Voltage header, god only knows how AsRock makes it work, probably a bucky between the two


I have ramping options in my bios and I can set it as low as 60% on the voltage headers. Fan xpert lowers this to ~25-30% depending on the fan. Im just saying that I dont have an option for strictly PWM control even though its a 4 pin header.


----------



## twerk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm looking for some fans for my upcoming build, I'll be using a fan controller so no need for PWM. What are the best 140mm case fans in terms of noise/performance ratio across their entire RPM range? I'm looking for fans that can run well at a very low RPM for daily usage but can also up to around 1800-2000 for benching. They must be black too. The new industrialPPC 2000rpm fans look promising, they are very expensive though.
> 
> Not really the right place to ask for a fan controller but my requirements are 30W per channel, potentiometers over PWM control, physical knobs for adjusting speed and an RPM/voltage readout. From the little research I've done it seems the Lamptron FC5 v3 fits the bill perfectly, but I'd just like to see if there are any better options.
> 
> Thanks.


Bump for advice!


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Bump for advice!


I have a few Cougars myself, so going to recommend this.

Courgar CF-V14HB. It's really well made, overall black, pretty quiet, although not exactly what you want, it does have a good RPM range and 3-pin :
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835553007


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> I have a few Cougars myself, so going to recommend this.
> 
> Courgar CF-V14HB. It's really well made, overall black, pretty quiet, although not exactly what you want, it does have a good RPM range and 3-pin :
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835553007


I have the 1400rpm 140mm cougar and im hugely unimpressed with it, even the air channeling is very minimal. The 120mm version seems like it exhausts much more air.

Honestly id consider just sticking with 120s because you get so much more pressure out of them then a 140mm equivalent.

I had 140mm rosewill hyperboras which supposedly push 88cfm max 2~2.8mmh20 at ~1400 rpm. Theyre quite nice fans and good for the price, however Dave talked me into trying some Delta AFBs and I was blown away at how much of a difference there was.

At idle with the hyperboras at 1200-1300 rpm I cant remember what they were set at, I would idle at 31C consistently. With the AFB1212Ms at 1300-1400rpm (About the same sound level, less annoying though) my idle temps dropped to 25-27c. My gpu is reporting a few C decrease too... All for the whopping price of $9 each, I also found AFB1212VHs for $8 too. If youre using a fan controller, id definitely go that route.

Oh, and twerk, thanks for that PSU guide you overlook, my new EVGA Supernova G2 750 is pretty awesome with very stable voltages.


----------



## twerk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I have the 1400rpm 140mm cougar and im hugely unimpressed with it, even the air channeling is very minimal. The 120mm version seems like it exhausts much more air.
> 
> Honestly id consider just sticking with 120s because you get so much more pressure out of them then a 140mm equivalent.
> 
> I had 140mm rosewill hyperboras which supposedly push 88cfm max 2~2.8mmh20 at ~1400 rpm. Theyre quite nice fans and good for the price, however Dave talked me into trying some Delta AFBs and I was blown away at how much of a difference there was.
> 
> At idle with the hyperboras at 1200-1300 rpm I cant remember what they were set at, I would idle at 31C consistently. With the AFB1212Ms at 1300-1400rpm (About the same sound level, less annoying though) my idle temps dropped to 25-27c. My gpu is reporting a few C decrease too... All for the whopping price of $9 each, I also found AFB1212VHs for $8 too. If youre using a fan controller, id definitely go that route.
> 
> Oh, and twerk, thanks for that PSU guide you overlook, my new EVGA Supernova G2 750 is pretty awesome with very stable voltages.


Thanks. I've heard about some bearing noise issues with the Cougars when oriented in a certain way. They also aren't readily available in the UK, I would have to import them from the US via eBay or some other means.

I am open to 120mm fan suggestions too, if they are better. I just assumed that 140mm fans would allow the same airflow at lower RPM, and the static pressure loss isn't a huge deal. Which models in particular would you recommend? There are many different 120mm Deltas, I've heard San Ace and Sanyo fans are good to. It's a damn shame AP-15's are so hard to find nowadays.

I know the OP says Noctuas are baned, but are the new PPC fans not any good? They look nice.

And no problem!


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I have the 1400rpm 140mm cougar and im hugely unimpressed with it, even the air channeling is very minimal. The 120mm version seems like it exhausts much more air.
> 
> Honestly id consider just sticking with 120s because you get so much more pressure out of them then a 140mm equivalent.
> 
> I had 140mm rosewill hyperboras which supposedly push 88cfm max 2~2.8mmh20 at ~1400 rpm. Theyre quite nice fans and good for the price, however Dave talked me into trying some Delta AFBs and I was blown away at how much of a difference there was.
> 
> At idle with the hyperboras at 1200-1300 rpm I cant remember what they were set at, I would idle at 31C consistently. With the AFB1212Ms at 1300-1400rpm (About the same sound level, less annoying though) my idle temps dropped to 25-27c. My gpu is reporting a few C decrease too... All for the whopping price of $9 each, I also found AFB1212VHs for $8 too. If youre using a fan controller, id definitely go that route.
> 
> Oh, and twerk, thanks for that PSU guide you overlook, my new EVGA Supernova G2 750 is pretty awesome with very stable voltages.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. I've heard about some bearing noise issues with the Cougars when oriented in a certain way. They also aren't readily available in the UK, I would have to import them from the US via eBay or some other means.
> 
> I am open to 120mm fan suggestions too, if they are better. I just assumed that 140mm fans would allow the same airflow at lower RPM, and the static pressure loss isn't a huge deal. Which models in particular would you recommend? There are many different 120mm Deltas, I've heard San Ace and Sanyo fans are good to. It's a damn shame AP-15's are so hard to find nowadays.
> 
> I know the OP says Noctuas are baned, but are the new PPC fans not any good? They look nice.
> 
> And no problem!
Click to expand...

The industrials are okay, just expensive.

I don't have much experience with the Sans Ace fans but AFB1212L or M versions would be good. Any afb1212h from dell that's marked as a CPU/case fan is actually an AFB1212M. They're very cheap too.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm looking for some fans for my upcoming build, I'll be using a fan controller so no need for PWM. What are the best 140mm case fans in terms of noise/performance ratio across their entire RPM range? I'm looking for fans that can run well at a very low RPM for daily usage but can also up to around 1800-2000 for benching. They must be black too. The new industrialPPC 2000rpm fans look promising, they are very expensive though.
> 
> Not really the right place to ask for a fan controller but my requirements are 30W per channel, potentiometers over PWM control, physical knobs for adjusting speed and an RPM/voltage readout. From the little research I've done it seems the Lamptron FC5 v3 fits the bill perfectly, but I'd just like to see if there are any better options.
> 
> Thanks.


Hard for me to help you frankly. Firstly ... I've never been an fan of 140mm fans for intake or rads so I suggest using 120mm AFB1212Ms

I suggest a Lamptron FC5 V2 ... FC5 V3 is pricey.


----------



## twerk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Hard for me to help you frankly. Firstly ... I've never been an fan of 140mm fans for intake or rads so I suggest using 120mm AFB1212Ms
> 
> I suggest a Lamptron FC5 V2 ... FC5 V3 is pricey.


I'm not too bothered about the cost, I will consider the V2 though.

I'm definitely open to 120mm fans. Is the AFB1212M the best in terms of performance/noise ratio? All these different Delta models are rather confusing.

I'm also considering getting a Swiftech H220X now, instead of a tower air cooler like I previously was. Are they good rad fans too?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> I'm not too bothered about the cost, I will consider the V2 though.
> 
> I'm definitely open to 120mm fans. Is the AFB1212M the best in terms of performance/noise ratio? All these different Delta models are rather confusing.
> 
> I'm also considering getting a Swiftech H220X now, instead of a tower air cooler like I previously was. Are they good rad fans too?


At "low speeds" all are equal up to the AFB1212HH. But for undervolting grab AFB1212M. PWM go for AFB1212H

Very. They are sort of a middle ground for air cooling but when you put them on rads they become epic monsters.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> I'm not too bothered about the cost, I will consider the V2 though.
> 
> I'm definitely open to 120mm fans. Is the AFB1212M the best in terms of performance/noise ratio? All these different Delta models are rather confusing.
> 
> I'm also considering getting a Swiftech H220X now, instead of a tower air cooler like I previously was. Are they good rad fans too?


Yes, theyre 2200rpm fans rated at 5.15 mm/H20 and 73cfm. They push the same volume as the SP120s, but much, much harder. you can run 2 off a motherboard header too.


----------



## twerk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Yes, theyre 2200rpm fans rated at 5.15 mm/H20 and 73cfm. They push the same volume as the SP120s, but much, much harder. you can run 2 off a motherboard header too.


They are at the top of my list now then.

Sorry for all the questions, I just don't know anything about these fans that are geared more towards enterprise and OEM sales. Are they better than the Delta WFB1212M, AFB1212L, AVC DS12025R12M and Sanyo AFB1212L/M/H? What are the differences? (all mentioned in the OP).


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Yes, theyre 2200rpm fans rated at 5.15 mm/H20 and 73cfm. They push the same volume as the SP120s, but much, much harder. you can run 2 off a motherboard header too.


SP120s are 62cfm and 3.4mmH2O @ 34dB.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> They are at the top of my list now then.
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, I just don't know anything about these fans that are geared more towards enterprise and OEM sales. Are they better than the Delta WFB1212M, AFB1212L, AVC DS12025R12M and Sanyo AFB1212L/M/H? What are the differences? (all mentioned in the OP).


 Do Sanyo AFB1212Ms even exist? I think you're talking about the Sanyo 9G1212L/M/H models they are a middle ground between afb1212m and wfb1212m (Sanyo 9G1212M). the best part of THESE PROPER (and not noctua's "PPC") industrial fans are that the datasheet specs are the very minimum you can expect for airflow and static pressure.

Yes it's better than the WFB1212M. By a far margin whether CFM or static pressure. WFB1212M already beat SP120s into submission, let alone afb1212m
AVCs DS12025 are more or less equal to SP120
AFB1212L is the slower sibling.


----------



## twerk

If there's nothing better then AFB1212M it is. Thanks for the help guys!


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> SP120s are 62cfm and 3.4mmH2O @ 34dB.
> Do Sanyo AFB1212Ms even exist? I think you're talking about the Sanyo 9G1212L/M/H models they are a middle ground between afb1212m and wfb1212m (Sanyo 9G1212M). the best part of THESE PROPER (and not noctua's "PPC") industrial fans are that the datasheet specs are the very minimum you can expect for airflow and static pressure.
> 
> Yes it's better than the WFB1212M. By a far margin whether CFM or static pressure. WFB1212M already beat SP120s into submission, let alone afb1212m
> AVCs DS12025 are more or less equal to SP120
> AFB1212L is the slower sibling.


I got confused for some reason, my 2700rpm SP120Ls are the 73cfm 3.9mm/H20 fans. But I could have sworn the SP120s were only 3.1mm/H20, still they sound terrible and develop bearing noise quickly.


----------



## twerk

Me again.









Are there any companies who make good, non-PWM (potentiometer) fan controllers apart from Lamptron? Before I drop the hammer on one.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Me again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any companies who make good, non-PWM (potentiometer) fan controllers apart from Lamptron? Before I drop the hammer on one.


Aquacomputer? The oem of the logisys 6 channel is a pretty good one as well, the only difference being the wires on mine are black.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Me again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any companies who make good, non-PWM (potentiometer) fan controllers apart from Lamptron? Before I drop the hammer on one.


Lamptron generally has the highest amperage ratings on their fan controllers. The top ones have 4x 50W, 6x 30W, and there's even an 8x 30W. You may want to jump into their forums to see which one is best of you.

The Aquaero 6 XT from Aquacomputer has 4x 30W channels, but it's really expensive.

I've never used Logisys controllers before.


----------



## RnRollie

Bitfenix Recon 5 ?


----------



## midnytwarrior

Hey Guys,

I just need your expert advice. I have subscribed to this thread sometime ago when I started water cooling to increase my knowledge about picking the right radiator fans.

However, I'm planning on a new build but due to aesthetics reasons, I'll be needing 120mm fans with white blades. Currently I'm looking between a Swiftech Helix and Arctic Cooling F12. Is/are there any fans you can recommend? I'm planning on doing push/pull plus maybe a Lamtron FC5 fan controller.

Anyway, if there aren't any white bladed fans out there that you can recommend, I've been looking on these two black bladed fans:

1. San Ace 9S1212H4011 -
2. Koolance 12025MBK / 12025HBK -

Any experiences on the above fans with a fan controller? Under volting? Quality? Also, with any of these two I will be only using them for push.

Thanks!


----------



## DaveLT

Sanyo 9S. Pretty pricey but I still suggest a Delta AFB.
I can never suggest koolance fans because they're a bit ... flimsy.

How about a CM Jetflo 120 w/ White LEDs?


----------



## midnytwarrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Sanyo 9S. Pretty pricey but I still suggest a Delta AFB.
> I can never suggest koolance fans because they're a bit ... flimsy.
> 
> How about a CM Jetflo 120 w/ White LEDs?


Thanks Dave for the quick response.

Only thing keeping me with a limited selection is that I order only from PPCs. They only have Jetflo black with no LEDs (R4-JFNP-20PK-R1) and the Delta AFB1212H-R00.
The Jetflo however has only a 4 pin connector which I am not sure if it would work with a a fan controller (Lamptron FC5) plus cable extensions/splitters. I will be using 14 fans total (push only). But the Jetflos are way cheaper than the San Ace 9S.
The Delta AFB1212H-R00 is a bit cheaper than the San Ace 9S. I will only be using them for push.

Is it OK for the Jetflo and Delta to be controlled by fan controllers? Any issues like clicking or reduced life expectancy when undervolted?

I hope the black fans match with the case I'm planning to order (Caselabs S8 - white interior, gunmetal exterior).

Thanks!


----------



## DaveLT

Sorry late reply. Been busy on smite.
Yes they are perfectly fine for fan control. The jetflo was built for versatility and performance as well as long life too


----------



## midnytwarrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Sorry late reply. Been busy on smite.
> Yes they are perfectly fine for fan control. The jetflo was built for versatility and performance as well as long life too


Thanks Dave!


----------



## CrazyElf

Do you think that the EFB series is any good? They seem to have about ~15% less static pressure at high rpms at any given db and ~8% less airflow, but a lot of the older forums seem to be recommending them over the AFB series. The 120mm EFBs though are no long in production but you can get the 25mm thick EFC1212D still. Comparable fan is the AFC1212D, also sold as the AFB1212SH PWM. A lot of people like them because of their lower-pitched tone.

There's also what I call the "San Ace" crowd. Looking at Martin's tests, the San Ace appears to be outperformed at any given db:airflow relative to the AFB, but it does seem like some people like the lower pitched tone of the San Ace.

Finally, one fan that I am really interested in is the PFB series. They seem to be a bit less focused than the FFB with their stator vanes (9 instead of 13), but Delta claims on their website that they are a big upgrade. Noise-quality wise, they seem to have a similar pleasant low pitched noise (versus the FFB which tends to sound a bit less pleasant).

I got to play around with the 38mm Nidec fans. Some of them are pretty good. There are quite a few used VA450DC fans out there that are pretty impressive. They are very similar to the Delta FFB series, although Nidec's stats list them as having higher static pressure. Not entirely sure about that, since Delta's specs are more conservatively done than those of San Ace.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Do you think that the EFB series is any good? They seem to have about ~15% less static pressure at high rpms at any given db and ~8% less airflow, but a lot of the older forums seem to be recommending them over the AFB series. The 120mm EFBs though are no long in production but you can get the 25mm thick EFC1212D still. Comparable fan is the AFC1212D, also sold as the AFB1212SH PWM. A lot of people like them because of their lower-pitched tone.
> 
> There's also what I call the "San Ace" crowd. Looking at Martin's tests, the San Ace appears to be outperformed at any given db:airflow relative to the AFB, but it does seem like some people like the lower pitched tone of the San Ace.
> 
> Finally, one fan that I am really interested in is the PFB series. They seem to be a bit less focused than the FFB with their stator vanes (9 instead of 13), but Delta claims on their website that they are a big upgrade. Noise-quality wise, they seem to have a similar pleasant low pitched noise (versus the FFB which tends to sound a bit less pleasant).
> 
> I got to play around with the 38mm Nidec fans. Some of them are pretty good. There are quite a few used VA450DC fans out there that are pretty impressive. They are very similar to the Delta FFB series, although Nidec's stats list them as having higher static pressure. Not entirely sure about that, since Delta's specs are more conservatively done than those of San Ace.


if it's the 3 bladed EFB, it's sucks for HSF.
but it's quite okay for a case fan, especially if it's for exhaust.
I had one 38mm thick EFB which can't cope up with my 25mm thick WFB1212H when it comes to HSF cooling.
as, for the noise.
yes the EFB has the lower pitched tone.

I had one PFC1212DE on hand, and previously FFC1212DE also.
as for the noise, the FFC somehow better than the PFC.
the FFC could also spin slower than the PFC, which make it more sensible choice for daily usage.

as for the San Ace.
I had more luck with their 3 wired types, rather than the 4p pwm.
as for performance wise.
most of my test typically had a "deminishing returns" trend, once the fan reached 3k rpm, whether they're San Ace or Deltas, or even Nidec (with similar blades count).


----------



## WiLd FyeR

Having the rear fans as intake help?

Setup: Intake 2x120 front, 1x120 rear and 2x120 exhaust (Top of case)


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> If there's nothing better then AFB1212M it is. Thanks for the help guys!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WiLd FyeR*
> 
> Having the rear fans as intake help?
> 
> Setup: Intake 2x120 front, 1x120 rear and 2x120 exhaust (Top of case)


its weird, but thats how my pc is setup, I have a 120.2 rad on the top of my case that runs exhaust so the back 120 feeds it, I have another exhaust on the side panel for my 780ti too. Temps seem pretty good.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WiLd FyeR*
> 
> Having the rear fans as intake help?
> 
> Setup: Intake 2x120 front, 1x120 rear and 2x120 exhaust (Top of case)


Yup. It will definitely help.


----------



## gelroyliao

How about cougar vortex fans? Can you recommend them for case and rad fans, dave?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gelroyliao*
> 
> How about cougar vortex fans? Can you recommend them for case and rad fans, dave?


What do you think? No will have to do.


----------



## midnytwarrior

Hey Dave,

I just want to ask if you could recommend a splitter cable from the Jetflo which has 4-pins to the Lamptron FC5 which has 3-pins? I'm having trouble finding one. Or maybe I just don't know what to look for.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *midnytwarrior*
> 
> Hey Dave,
> 
> I just want to ask if you could recommend a splitter cable from the Jetflo which has 4-pins to the Lamptron FC5 which has 3-pins? I'm having trouble finding one. Or maybe I just don't know what to look for.


Frankly neither do I









The easiest way is to get a 4-pin splitter and attach the female end directly into the fan controller


----------



## midnytwarrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Frankly neither do I
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The easiest way is to get a 4-pin splitter and attach the female end directly into the fan controller


OK Thanks Dave!







Repped for all your help!


----------



## Onyxian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *midnytwarrior*
> 
> Hey Dave,
> 
> I just want to ask if you could recommend a splitter cable from the Jetflo which has 4-pins to the Lamptron FC5 which has 3-pins? I'm having trouble finding one. Or maybe I just don't know what to look for.


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00957SY6G/ Like that?


----------



## midnytwarrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00957SY6G/ Like that?


Can that be used for the CM Jetflo?

I was looking around PPCs but only found this one: http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34_289&products_id=31267

Actually I'm not even sure if what I found was correct. I hope PPCs have the same thing in your link. I would actually be needing a 3x(3pin/4pin) to 3pin.

Thanks!


----------



## Onyxian

Can't find any that splits to 3. I'm only guessing it will work since the connector doesn't have the plastic shield thing around it so a 4 pin can be connected into it as well. http://www.frozencpu.com/products/13374/cab-462/3-pin_Y_Cable_Splitter_-_Black.html?tl=g47c251

Can't you just plug in a 4pin splitter to the 3pin in the Lamptron FC5?


----------



## midnytwarrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> Can't you just plug in a 4pin splitter to the 3pin in the Lamptron FC5?


I'm not sure. I still don't have the fan controller with me. I'm just preparing the parts to order so it can be ready once I receive my new case.


----------



## Onyxian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *midnytwarrior*
> 
> I'm not sure. I still don't have the fan controller with me. I'm just preparing the parts to order so it can be ready once I receive my new case.




It looks like there's enough room to just plug a 4pin in if this is the correct controller. Though I'm not sure what it would do with fan control/voltages/readings etc.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like there's enough room to just plug a 4pin in if this is the correct controller. Though I'm not sure what it would do with fan control/voltages/readings etc.


No worries. the 4th pin won't be connected to any that's all.


----------



## midnytwarrior

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like there's enough room to just plug a 4pin in if this is the correct controller. Though I'm not sure what it would do with fan control/voltages/readings etc.






If the female pins fit then I guess it should work. And still be able to control the fans. Readings most probably will not change as it will take from the RPM line of the fan.

Thanks


----------



## Onyxian

Glad I could help at least a little bit, haven't done much fan stuff yet as PARCEL POOL TAKES FOREVER TO SHIP


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Onyxian*
> 
> Glad I could help at least a little bit, haven't done much fan stuff yet as PARCEL POOL TAKES FOREVER TO SHIP


LOL ... My fan collection is simply enormous. Just added 2x AFB1212Hs 1 4710kl-04w-b37 just the other day :| on top of 1 more I uncovered and 2 dead afb1212h, 2 dead wfb1212m plus 2 CM Excalibur crap fans that my friend gave to me and 1 jetflo as well as 8 trashed AFB1212M and 1 PH-140TC (or something, can't remember what it is)
Well I can play around with them and write a better guide.
http://www.overclock.net/g/a/1194321/my-biggest-fans/sort/display_order
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *midnytwarrior*
> 
> 
> If the female pins fit then I guess it should work. And still be able to control the fans. Readings most probably will not change as it will take from the RPM line of the fan.
> 
> Thanks


Absolutely.


----------



## gelroyliao

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> What do you think? No will have to do.


What do you mean? I mean Cougar vortex PWM fan has a pretty specs though I never tried them out yet.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gelroyliao*
> 
> What do you mean? I mean Cougar vortex PWM fan has a pretty specs though I never tried them out yet.


Pretty ... Fake specs.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *gelroyliao*
> 
> What do you mean? I mean Cougar vortex PWM fan has a pretty specs though I never tried them out yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty ... Fake specs.
Click to expand...

I agree, I have the 1300rpm 140 and the 1400rpm 120mm and they're both weak.
The 140 could barely exhaust through the side panel on my 300r and shook like hell. The 120 is okay, but I wouldn't use it for anything but an exhaust personally.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gelroyliao*
> 
> What do you mean? I mean Cougar vortex PWM fan has a pretty specs though I never tried them out yet.


The Cougars are inferior fans to the AP15 Gentle Typhoons for radiator and CPU cooler use.

That and as FDB fans, they do tend to give an unpleasant noise when mounted horizontally.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> if it's the 3 bladed EFB, it's sucks for HSF.
> but it's quite okay for a case fan, especially if it's for exhaust.
> I had one 38mm thick EFB which can't cope up with my 25mm thick WFB1212H when it comes to HSF cooling.
> as, for the noise.
> yes the EFB has the lower pitched tone.


Thanks a lot inVain, I appreciate the info. +Rep.

Yeah I tried the EFB. It probably wasn't worth it. Yeah it's somewhat nicer to hear, but when you put it against the radiator, I think AFB is definitely better.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> I had one PFC1212DE on hand, and previously FFC1212DE also.
> as for the noise, the FFC somehow better than the PFC.
> the FFC could also spin slower than the PFC, which make it more sensible choice for daily usage.


So FFC has better minimum startup. FFC had a better noise quality?

The FFC series seems to be more "focused" than the PFC series (and by extension FFB/PFB). They are heavier and seem to be a bit more solidly built. Probably going to test out both.

I'm probably going to try to get my hands on both fans for testing.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> as for the San Ace.
> I had more luck with their 3 wired types, rather than the 4p pwm.
> as for performance wise.
> most of my test typically had a "deminishing returns" trend, once the fan reached 3k rpm, whether they're San Ace or Deltas, or even Nidec (with similar blades count).


It's the same with all high rpm fans. Not only does power consumption go up by the third degree (Ex: 2x rpm needs ~8x power consumption), the performance doesn't follow.

Nidec fans vary widely too. They have a very similar version in their Beta V series to the EFB/EFC series. Then they have their vane axials which are solid for high pressure and are very much alike the FFB series. I think they have something like the AFB, can't remember the name though.

By any chance, does anybody know of any good agents with Taobao? Going to try buying some fans there. There does seem to be a better selection of fans on Taobao than any other site. From what I hear, sea shipping is cheap, although it takes some time to get to you naturally.


----------



## Dyaems

I can buy stuffs in Taobao. Unfortunately, it will triple the shipping cost and time because I buy the stuffs from Taobao, send it to local address, send to my country, and send to yours xD


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> I'm probably going to try to get my hands on both fans for testing.
> It's the same with all high rpm fans. Not only does power consumption go up by the third degree (Ex: 2x rpm needs ~8x power consumption), the performance doesn't follow.
> 
> Nidec fans vary widely too. They have a very similar version in their Beta V series to the EFB/EFC series. Then they have their vane axials which are solid for high pressure and are very much alike the FFB series. I think they have something like the AFB, can't remember the name though.
> 
> By any chance, does anybody know of any good agents with Taobao? Going to try buying some fans there. There does seem to be a better selection of fans on Taobao than any other site. From what I hear, sea shipping is cheap, although it takes some time to get to you naturally.


For me I don't use either because they weigh a bloody ton and my cooler used to sag if i install them with only 1 piece







Besides AFB fans will do well. AFC though beware ... catch 22. Lowest speed is 1200rpm or thereabout... I run my AFBs at 1200rpm anyway and they are still QUIETER than my AC which isn't exactly loud either.
Ya indeed, these fans are used in areas without active heatsinks since it's better optimized if you have a passive heatsink but a high airflow fan at the back of the HDD cages (Do u server bro







) EFBs are used in IBM blade servers (FACT: 1 of my efb1212vh's still has the IBM sticker on it lol) where air is pulled out through all the blades and not attached to a heatsink

Yes some of the TA450DCs are 3 blade some are FFB style (TA225DC I think, 80mm or smaller) and some are AFB-style but 450DC means it's a DC fan and a 120mm usually. But actually the GOLDEN standard in fans are Delta AFBs period.
They have been discontinued for ages though, if you want power buy a Ultraflo V12E12BS1B5-07




Yup that's my video









In the US, I'm afraid not. I buy ALL my fans there though and ship by sea. Only takes me 12 days to get here


----------



## Evangelion

I'm so glad I ran into this thread. I'm thinking about adding some SP120s into my NCASE M1 build to see if it helps with the heat here in Southern California. I think I'll try that tonight.


----------



## Arizonian

I'm glad for this thread too. Was looking for good LED fans for asthetics and led me to CM Jetflo 120's. Waitng on a couple of 4 pin splitters to hook five of them up.









Really solid fans. I was impressed by the build quality.

Not so impressed by the LED's though, too dim IMO.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> I'm glad for this thread too. Was looking for good LED fans for asthetics and led me to CM Jetflo 120's. Waitng on a couple of 4 pin splitters to hook five of them up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really solid fans. I was impressed by the build quality.
> 
> Not so impressed by the LED's though, too dim IMO.


It is a bit too dim than advertised indeed. (the marketing image gives off an impression of it being fully lited but it's truly only lited 30 degrees around the hub)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Evangelion*
> 
> I'm so glad I ran into this thread. I'm thinking about adding some SP120s into my NCASE M1 build to see if it helps with the heat here in Southern California. I think I'll try that tonight.


----------



## Onyxian

Going to assume your Deltas are louder and can move more air.. So they must be damn little machines.


----------



## jtom320

So I got my hands on some Gentle Typhoons.

The noise level is honestly as advertised. I'm really impressed with them to be honest. I've got six AP-15s and six AP-14s. Going to use the 15's on my intake rad and 14s on exhaust. The intake rad is thicker as well so it makes sense.

Probably going to sell my Deltas. I'd imagine they move a similar amount of air to the GT's but the sound signature on the typhoons is no joke. It really is not so much quieter just better sounding then anything else. After reading for years about there properties I gotta say they really are quite good.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jtom320*
> 
> So I got my hands on some Gentle Typhoons.
> 
> The noise level is honestly as advertised. I'm really impressed with them to be honest. I've got six AP-15s and six AP-14s. Going to use the 15's on my intake rad and 14s on exhaust. The intake rad is thicker as well so it makes sense.
> 
> Probably going to sell my Deltas. I'd imagine they move a similar amount of air to the GT's but the sound signature on the typhoons is no joke. It really is not so much quieter just better sounding then anything else. After reading for years about there properties I gotta say they really are quite good.


Where did you get the 15s?


----------



## EternalRest

What would be the best air cooling setup for the thermaltake chaser mk1?

I'm guessing:

Two - Front 120m Intakes
One - 120mm in Drive bay Intake
One - Top 140mm intake to blow onto ram?
One- Rear 140mm exhaust
One - Side 200m exhaust (Since my GPU dumps air into the case)


----------



## jtom320

Got all the gets off a user here on ocn. I actually run them all at 1400rpm anyway. At 1850 they are slightly loud and having a totally silent pc is awesome.e


----------



## vlaint

hello dave informative thread . Just wondering what would be a better fan for intake on a cm storm scout2 as intake is blocked by hdd cage. Planning on sp120,swiftech helix,uf120,blademaster or any fan you can suggest except industrial fans as i cant get it here and jetflo is off as well. thanks


----------



## Arizonian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It is a bit too dim than advertised indeed. (the marketing image gives off an impression of it being fully lited but it's truly only lited 30 degrees around the hub)


I will say one thing, Jetflo's feel very solid and well built. The rubber corners feel high quality and cuts vibration. The fan alone without LED is one of the most worthy fans I've had. It pushes more air than my previous fans at same speed. Keep in mind I only have had Apiva, Corsair, Cooler Master, and NZXT fans to compare with in my builds.

On a side related note: I'm going to be building a new rig around December and by February will looking into which high end (quality) / low noise fans I might replace the stock fans on a Corsair 450D case.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arizonian*
> 
> I will say one thing, Jetflo's feel very solid and well built. The rubber corners feel high quality and cuts vibration. The fan alone without LED is one of the most worthy fans I've had. It pushes more air than my previous fans at same speed. Keep in mind I only have had Apiva, Corsair, Cooler Master, and NZXT fans to compare with in my builds.
> 
> On a side related note: I'm going to be building a new rig around December and by February will looking into which high end (quality) / low noise fans I might replace the stock fans on a Corsair 450D case.


That's what PWM is for!







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> hello dave informative thread . Just wondering what would be a better fan for intake on a cm storm scout2 as intake is blocked by hdd cage. Planning on sp120,swiftech helix,uf120,blademaster or any fan you can suggest except industrial fans as i cant get it here and jetflo is off as well. thanks


Why are you able to get a blademaster but not a jetflo?


----------



## vlaint

dunno lol its not available here or rather there was one seller but he sells by 5 pieces which is expensive


----------



## Luke Cool

Dave,
It is interesting to see how different two individuals approach is, when writing a guide like this.
It is obvious from this guides writing style and format design, you started from scratch and made it your way.
I wrote a similar guide a couple of months ago in the Articles section of Overclock.net.
Mine is called *A Guide on how to fix Heat Problems*.
At the time I wrote it, I was unaware of your guide. There are many places where we whole-heartedly agree.
But there are also a lot of differences between our guides; one of the biggest difference is, I avoided voicing my opinion about specific products. I focused more on fundamentals.
Because of yearly product updates and the arrival of new products, specific product information can sometimes become quickly outdated.
This has been a good thing for this thread though, it prompted many discussions on differences of opinion about those and other specific products.

I enjoyed reading your guide, a well thought out guide like this takes a while to write.
Thank-you for taking the time to write it and post it.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Dave,
> It is interesting to see how different two individuals approach is, when writing a guide like this.
> It is obvious from this guides writing style and format design, you started from scratch and made it your way.
> I wrote a similar guide a couple of months ago in the Articles section of Overclock.net.
> Mine is called *A Guide on how to fix Heat Problems*.
> At the time I wrote it, I was unaware of your guide. There are many places where we whole-heartedly agree.
> But there are also a lot of differences between our guides; one of the biggest difference is, I avoided voicing my opinion about specific products. I focused more on fundamentals.
> Because of yearly product updates and the arrival of new products, specific product information can sometimes become quickly outdated.
> This has been a good thing for this thread though, it prompted many discussions on differences of opinion about those and other specific products.
> 
> I enjoyed reading your guide, a well thought out guide like this takes a while to write.
> Thank-you for taking the time to write it and post it.


Awesome! I have to always point out specific products to give an idea of what's "crap" and what's "good" because fans always have overblown specs.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Awesome! I have to always point out specific products to give an idea of what's "crap" and what's "good" because fans always have overblown specs.


gotta admit that I thought Delta was a crap when I saw it for the very first time.
they were literally everywhere when I look for a fan at the local electronic shops.

but that was then, when I used to think that a god fan MUST be silent.
but then again I found out that a silent fan is the real crap!
it's nothing but a LED holder









now I know what the real fan is.
problem is, they're no longer easy to be found (at the local electronic shops)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> gotta admit that I thought Delta was a crap when I saw it for the very first time.
> they were literally everywhere when I look for a fan at the local electronic shops.
> 
> but that was then, when I used to think that a god fan MUST be silent.
> but then again I found out that a silent fan is the real crap!
> it's nothing but a LED holder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now I know what the real fan is.
> problem is, they're no longer easy to be found (at the local electronic shops)












We all thought the same way at some point ... To be honest.







Well the ones with LEDs are









Maybe it's your fault for getting people to know that deltas are the best Period


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> gotta admit that I thought Delta was a crap when I saw it for the very first time.
> they were literally everywhere when I look for a fan at the local electronic shops.
> 
> but that was then, when I used to think that a god fan MUST be silent.
> but then again I found out that a silent fan is the real crap!
> it's nothing but a LED holder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now I know what the real fan is.
> problem is, they're no longer easy to be found (at the local electronic shops)


There are plenty of exceptions to this, but as a general rule, I agree with you.
For case fans, an OK fan will work fine, most of the time.
But the fans that propel air through a cooler need to be exceptional.
They need to have impressive static pressure, and their speed must be controllable.

These "bad to the bone" 38mm thick fans are easy to find in industrial grade computers.
If you want a great fan like this cheap, you can find lots of them on EBay.
You can get a fan that is over $30 new, for less than $10 used (with shipping).
The only problem is, you have to know how to deal with their proprietary plugs.
Some of these plugs are very easy to convert to the standard config using the existing plug.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> There are plenty of exceptions to this, but as a general rule, I agree with you.
> For case fans, an OK fan will work fine, most of the time.
> But the fans that propel air through a cooler need to be exceptional.
> They need to have impressive static pressure, and their speed must be controllable.
> 
> These "bad to the bone" 38mm thick fans are easy to find in industrial grade computers.
> If you want a great fan like this cheap, you can find lots of them on EBay.
> You can get a fan that is over $30 new, for less than $10 used (with shipping).
> The only problem is, you have to know how to deal with their proprietary plugs.
> Some of these plugs are very easy to convert to the standard config using the existing plug.


No mate, he knows his fans here very well. He's been in the delta know-how way longer than I have despite my enormous industrial fan collection


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> No mate, he knows his fans here very well. He's been in the delta know-how way longer than I have despite my enormous industrial fan collection


Which part do you disagree with?


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> There are plenty of exceptions to this, but as a general rule, I agree with you.
> For case fans, an OK fan will work fine, most of the time.
> But the fans that propel air through a cooler need to be exceptional.
> They need to have impressive static pressure, and their speed must be controllable.
> 
> These "bad to the bone" 38mm thick fans are easy to find in industrial grade computers.
> If you want a great fan like this cheap, you can find lots of them on EBay.
> You can get a fan that is over $30 new, for less than $10 used (with shipping).
> The only problem is, you have to know how to deal with their proprietary plugs.
> Some of these plugs are very easy to convert to the standard config using the existing plug.


yes.
finding a 38mm thick fan that can push a great deal of air through your dense HSF is quite easy.
but, having a fan that can penetrate air at their full blast while also could be quiet at a very low speed is quite frustrating.
maybe this is what hindering people from using these kind of fans inside their pc.
someone having a top notch performer PFB /PFC but hope to use it daily on his desk sitting PC next to his head surely won't be happy.
but hey! they pick the wrong Delta fan









and Dave's doing a great job here on that department









I had my luck with the Delta FFC1212DE, wayyyyyy loooong ago.
the fan's quite silent at under 1800rpm (to my ear at that time era







).
but the fans were wobbling horribly during full speed (had two of them and bought them 2nd hand).
I gave up on those fans, but couldn't find a replacement for the exact model in acceptable condition.
but now, I'm lucky enough to know a seller who's willing to know what a good fan is and my problems were solved (a fellow countryman of mine, and I let him do the hardwork dealing with E-bay or wherever those fans coming from







).

I don't use regular pc fans anymore on my rig.
but I dare to bet that my pc runs quieter than many average system.
uh, oh and of course temps were fine too.
I found out that the main benefit of these 38mm thick fans is that they can deliver more air at the same speed compared to a 25mm fans.

and you're absolutely right about the connectors.
care must be taken carefully when dealing with connectors of these fans, as they can easily draw monstrous power compared to a regular pc fans.
I even used a connector that don't belong to a pc on my Sanyo 9SG1212P1G03.
I simply don't like the physical size of a molex connector


----------



## Luke Cool

If you read my guide *A Guide on how to fix Heat Problems*, you and I sing the same song, The PWM control system uses pulsed power at full amperage and voltage, unlike the voltage control system. This makes the large motor and big fan blades of the 38mm Delta fans very affective, even at slower speeds.

The only place our opinions differ is regarding Delta fans for case use. There are some well engineered 120 X 25mm fans out there; well designed quiet blades, a strong centered motor drive, versatile long lasting bearings and anti-vibration mounts. For case flow, you do not need a hurricane moving through your computer to keep it cool. With case fans, all you are trying to do is keep fresh air moving through the case so the devices will not cook in their own heat, also to supply fresh air to, and expel hot air from the coolers. Case fans do not have to overcome obstacles like coolers, so high static pressure is not a requirement, but good airflow is a necessity. The world is full of things that have a performance curve that nearly flat lines at higher performance levels. Fan air flow volumes get to a point to where further increases provide almost no additional benefit. I can see your side, you are not wrong to use Delta PWM controlled fans through-out your whole rig; but I personnel do not feel it is necessary to use a fan this powerful and expensive for case flow to get a good result. I try to keep my noisier fans inside the case and at the intakes. When your fans are at full speed, I'll bet you can get your computer to hover.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> If you read my guide *A Guide on how to fix Heat Problems*, you and I sing the same song, The PWM control system uses pulsed power at full amperage and voltage, unlike the voltage control system. This makes the large motor and big fan blades of the 38mm Delta fans very affective, even at slower speeds.
> 
> The only place our opinions differ is regarding Delta fans for case use. There are some well engineered 120 X 25mm fans out there; well designed quiet blades, a strong centered motor drive, versatile long lasting bearings and anti-vibration mounts. For case flow, you do not need a hurricane moving through your computer to keep it cool. With case fans, all you are trying to do is keep fresh air moving through the case so the devices will not cook in their own heat, also to supply fresh air to, and expel hot air from the coolers. Case fans do not have to overcome obstacles like coolers, so high static pressure is not a requirement, but good airflow is a necessity. The world is full of things that have a performance curve that nearly flat lines at higher performance levels. *Fan air flow volumes get to a point to where further increases provide almost no additional benefit.* I can see your side, you are not wrong to use Delta PWM controlled fans through-out your whole rig; but I personnel do not feel it is necessary to use a fan this powerful and expensive for case flow to get a good result. I try to keep my noisier fans inside the case and at the intakes. When your fans are at full speed, I'll bet you can get your computer to hover.


yep, your write is a good read









you spot that right...
on my Venomous-X, I got no performance gain at all whenever my fans hit something around 3200rpm.

and about the case fan, Indeed you're so true.
I'm currently running 2 9SG; 1 as a heatsink fan and the other as an intake to supply the heatsink with fresh air.
controlling both fan with 2 different channels fan controller.
the heatsink was set up @~1200 and the intake @~650-ish.
now, the interesting part is whenever I ramp up the intake fan to @800-ish, the heatsink fan's rpm tend to rise by itself (I manually set my fan speed via a controller, btw).
so yes, having another 9SG as an intake is an overkill decision as I only have it running around 11% of it's potential









I like these fans solely because of their full range RPM in response to the pwm signal... well actually, at the first time I got curious; as it have a lot of fans on another forum








but, 450 to 6000rpm is still amazing.
again, this might be not the only fan which were able to operate at those range of speed, but then again. they were the only one I can get at this moment, so I'll be stick with them for a while








as for latter, I'll probably look for 25mm thick AFB with pwm function, or something else that I found interesting.

oh, I do take surprises as a part of the fun.
this probably our source of difference in our opinions, but a plain blue painting won't be interesting at all, right?









and at their full speed....
my fans will sound "mom alerts", as she'll run from down stairs to my room and yell at me right away...
down stairs <-> attic | noise


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> If you read my guide *A Guide on how to fix Heat Problems*, you and I sing the same song, The PWM control system uses pulsed power at full amperage and voltage, unlike the voltage control system. This makes the large motor and big fan blades of the 38mm Delta fans very affective, even at slower speeds.
> 
> The only place our opinions differ is regarding Delta fans for case use. There are some well engineered 120 X 25mm fans out there; well designed quiet blades, a strong centered motor drive, versatile long lasting bearings and anti-vibration mounts. For case flow, you do not need a hurricane moving through your computer to keep it cool. With case fans, all you are trying to do is keep fresh air moving through the case so the devices will not cook in their own heat, also to supply fresh air to, and expel hot air from the coolers. Case fans do not have to overcome obstacles like coolers, so high static pressure is not a requirement, but good airflow is a necessity. The world is full of things that have a performance curve that nearly flat lines at higher performance levels. Fan air flow volumes get to a point to where further increases provide almost no additional benefit. I can see your side, you are not wrong to use Delta PWM controlled fans through-out your whole rig; but I personnel do not feel it is necessary to use a fan this powerful and expensive for case flow to get a good result. I try to keep my noisier fans inside the case and at the intakes. When your fans are at full speed, I'll bet you can get your computer to hover.


That's why I leave them at low speed







Any "airflow" fans are basically "no airflow" fans since they don't have enough pressure to get past a filter and mesh easy.
Not when your deltas are cheap







Believe or not I only paid 6$ for my effectively brand new PFR0812XHE ... just to scare my mates when they come to my house


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> That's why I leave them at low speed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any "airflow" fans are basically "no airflow" fans since they don't have enough pressure to get past a filter and mesh easy.
> Not when your deltas are cheap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe or not I only paid 6$ for my effectively brand new PFR0812XHE ... just to scare my mates when they come to my house


20 to 40 % is more realistic, unless your the type that rarely cleans your filters. A very dirty filter will have NO airflow. The flat screen and paper filters are the worst. The thicker filters like the "EZ Flow Green Air Filters" are the best. You can buy kits in different thicknesses, then cut it to size. The thing I really like about these green filters is when they get a little dirty, they still have great flow, There thickness is the only problem, but they will fit in most places. Done right, they look and perform high-tech. One other neat fetcher; with a can of spay oil, their extent of filtration is adjustable. But I never do this, they do a great job "as is".

Low speed smile.gif fans make good paper weights. Anything below 60 CFM is useless. Also be careful what you plug your fans into. Some motherboard's fan headers and controllers work poorly, a fan will looses 30% of it speed and power with the header at 100% speed. You can test this by plugging the fan directly into the power supply and see if there is a speed difference.

6$ is a great price for an almost new PFR0812XHE. It is a 12Volt 4.90Amp 80 X 80 X 38mm 4Pin PWM fan They are 20$ to 50$ on EBay. That thing DOES suck some juice.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> 20 to 40 % is more realistic, unless your the type that rarely cleans your filters. A very dirty filter will have NO airflow. The flat screen and paper filters are the worst. The thicker filters like the "EZ Flow Green Air Filters" are the best. You can buy kits in different thicknesses, then cut it to size. The thing I really like about these green filters is when they get a little dirty, they still have great flow, There thickness is the only problem, but they will fit in most places. Done right, they look and perform high-tech. One other neat fetcher; with a can of spay oil, their extent of filtration is adjustable. But I never do this, they do a great job "as is".
> 
> Low speed smile.gif fans make good paper weights. Anything below 60 CFM is useless. Also be careful what you plug your fans into. Some motherboard's fan headers and controllers work poorly, a fan will looses 30% of it speed and power with the header at 100% speed. You can test this by plugging the fan directly into the power supply and see if there is a speed difference.
> 
> 6$ is a great price for an almost new PFR0812XHE. It is a 12Volt 4.90Amp 80 X 80 X 38mm 4Pin PWM fan They are 20$ to 50$ on EBay. That thing DOES suck some juice.


Those foam filters get the cake from me for being the most awful filters ever to exist. It's exactly the same as those "mushroom filters" ricers install on their turbos and not realize that a high percentage of dust gets through them.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> yep, your write is a good read
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you spot that right...
> on my Venomous-X, I got no performance gain at all whenever my fans hit something around 3200rpm.
> 
> and about the case fan, Indeed you're so true.
> I'm currently running 2 9SG; 1 as a heatsink fan and the other as an intake to supply the heatsink with fresh air.
> controlling both fan with 2 different channels fan controller.
> the heatsink was set up @~1200 and the intake @~650-ish.
> now, the interesting part is whenever I ramp up the intake fan to @800-ish, the heatsink fan's rpm tend to rise by itself (I manually set my fan speed via a controller, btw).
> so yes, having another 9SG as an intake is an overkill decision as I only have it running around 11% of it's potential
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like these fans solely because of their full range RPM in response to the pwm signal... well actually, at the first time I got curious; as it have a lot of fans on another forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but, 450 to 6000rpm is still amazing.
> again, this might be not the only fan which were able to operate at those range of speed, but then again. they were the only one I can get at this moment, so I'll be stick with them for a while
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as for latter, I'll probably look for 25mm thick AFB with pwm function, or something else that I found interesting.
> 
> oh, I do take surprises as a part of the fun.
> this probably our source of difference in our opinions, but a plain blue painting won't be interesting at all, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and at their full speed....
> my fans will sound "mom alerts", as she'll run from down stairs to my room and yell at me right away...
> down stairs <-> attic | noise


All so true, except for the surprise part.
My brother bought a build, and all of the pieces arrived at about the same time.
I went over to his house to help him with it.
If a single graphics card is used, it had to go in the second PCIe slot, and a special jumper card had to go in the first slot.
The special jumper card did come with the motherboard, but now the graphics card's location rendered the prime HDD positions behind the front case fan, unusable.
We had one other problem. He did some research after we got it running, and the $320 memory he had bought was not compatible with that motherboard. Ouch.








You are probably expecting me to tell you that the first two memory slots were blocked by the cooler, but this is not true His Zalman cooler with a 135mm fan, fit just fine. But this is another very common mistake.

Or there is the guy that bought a 2.5 amp Delta fan, plugged it into the motherboard's CPU fan header, then watched his $350 motherboard start smoking. Ouch.









Some surprises are Fun, they keep life exciting. But some ether makes you live with a build that shatters your dreams, or makes you spend more money and wait for compatible parts to come in.
My bother says there are no problems, there are only opportunities. In that case, if there are some opportunities that I can avoid facing by doing a little research first, I will.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Those foam filters get the cake from me for being the most awful filters ever to exist. It's exactly the same as those "mushroom filters" ricers install on their turbos and not realize that a high percentage of dust gets through them.


Never buy a foam filter for a computer, they belong on your lawn mower.
Turbos are ineffective with poor airflow.
There choice toward "a high volume of air" is a compromise that must be made to achieve great performance.

All filters restrict flow: the better the filtration, the more restrictive they are.
There are some tricks that we can use to get around this to some degree.
If you use a very large filtration area, you can have very good filtration and yet still have a satisfyingly fast airflow.
There are several ways of doing this, the greater the surface area, the more effectively this works.

There is another way, go to the source. With a great Air Purifier for you room or house, you do not have to worry about cleaning restrictive case fan filters, powerful case fans, or any of the problems the case fan filters create. You will rarely need to clean the dust from your computer.
*Air Purifier, Ozone Generator :* This Ozone Generator fills the room with electrons.
These electrons attach themselves to all airborne particles in the air. This makes the particles weigh too much to remain airborne.
The second part is to vacuum these sediments off of the floor every 2 or 3 days.
These electrons are a normal occurrence in the human body and causes us no harm.
These Air Purifiers are so good, they can remove smoke from the air and materials like furniture and clothing.
This is an Air Purifier that has no physical filter. To clean it, you wipe off 2 small metal strips with a damp paper tile. This takes 30 seconds.
It is by far, the most economical and maintenance free Air Purifier available.
A good one cost between $200 and $600. If you have breathing problems, or an extremely dusty house, it is well worth the money.
*Water Air Purifier:* The ultimate filter is an aerator in water, the air that comes out of that system is pure and cool, but humid.
The air is feed by a compressor. The water Air Purifier system cost about the same as an Ozone Generator, but it is comparatively noisy.
The water gets nasty quick and will make you sick if it is not changed often.
*Multiple stage Air Purifier:* This type of air filtration is done in several steps; rough first, finest last.
This is another way of spreading the filtration out over a very large area.
It is not as expensive to buy as the others, but you will go through a lot of filters.

EZ Green filters have fibers. This is a lot better fan filter than the screens a lot of people use on their case fans.
Paper filters are superior to both. But are too restrictive, get clogged up with dust too easy, and are not reusable..
The green filters thick filtration area still filters well, but is free flowing because it does its job through a much larger area.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> All so true, except for the surprise part.
> My brother bought a build, and all of the pieces arrived at about the same time.
> I went over to his house to help him with it.
> If a single graphics card is used, it had to go in the second PCIe slot, and a special jumper card had to go in the first slot.
> The special jumper card did come with the motherboard, but now the graphics card's location rendered the prime HDD positions behind the front case fan, unusable.
> We had one other problem. He did some research after we got it running, and the $320 memory he had bought was not compatible with that motherboard. Ouch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are probably expecting me to tell you that the first two memory slots were blocked by the cooler, but this is not true His Zalman cooler with a 135mm fan, fit just fine. But this is another very common mistake.
> 
> Or there is the guy that bought a 2.5 amp Delta fan, plugged it into the motherboard's CPU fan header, then watched his $350 motherboard start smoking. Ouch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some surprises are Fun, they keep life exciting. But some ether makes you live with a build that shatters your dreams, or makes you spend more money and wait for compatible parts to come in.
> My bother says there are no problems, there are only opportunities. In that case, if there are some opportunities that I can avoid facing by doing a little research first, I will.


I think I know what mobo was that








and that reminds me that I have a long stern argue with a friend of mine about the primary graphic slot as he insisted it belong to the fist slot.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I'd rather call them "bad luck"









it's really surprise me that when people talking about RAM compatibility lately, they we're actually talking about the physical size of the RAM.
well, I'd say; "it's that tall RAMs' heatspreader (I'd still call them a heatsinks btw) that doesn't comply to the ATX formfactors standard"









and there's should be some reasons when a Delta came with a different shape connector than that rather to be found on a mobo (or even bare wires) .
that thing alone would had surprised me, and I won't be that greedy to have another surprise by plugging it to my mobo. that's a good reason to dig a research









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Low speed smile.gif fans make good paper weights. Anything below 60 CFM is useless. Also be careful what you plug your fans into. *Some motherboard's fan headers and controllers work poorly, a fan will looses 30% of it speed and power with the header at 100% speed.* You can test this by plugging the fan directly into the power supply and see if there is a speed difference.


the part which I bold, is something that I found interesting.
so you've been aware there's a chance that fans will loose some of its speed power when connected to some certain devices (you'll get better luck with 4 wired breed, though).
so why don't just pick a fan that's slightly had higher performance than it's needed?

so instead having 30% empty (loses), you'll get 70% full.....
as in my case, I have it 11% full









there're lots of ways to get the job done,
why keep looking for a difference?
I highly value differences because they simply made life more colorful.
and it's always nice to share thought, opinions and different approaches in regard to a similar problem


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> the part which I bold, is something that I found interesting.
> so you've been aware there's a chance that fans will loose some of its speed power when connected to some certain devices (you'll get better luck with 4 wired breed, though).
> so why don't just pick a fan that's slightly had higher performance than it's needed?
> 
> so instead having 30% empty (loses), you'll get 70% full.....
> as in my case, I have it 11% full


I read fan reviews on Newegg where a reviewer complain about a fan being weak and underpowered.
I know this fan, and it is not weak. Don't believe everything you read, Knowledge is power !!
Few high end motherboards have weak headers, so we know this guy does not have a high end motherboard.
As a computer technician, I carry fan to Molex adaptors and use them often.
Manufactured computers are real bad about this problem. I've seen an adaptor better than triple the speed of a fan.
In doing this, I fixed two problems; a once weak fan is now running strong, and a heat problem on the motherboard.

The nice Thing about PWM control is its pulsed power where the fan gets full current and voltage with each pulse.
Are you really OK with cutting that by 30%? I'm not. I want every inch of what I paid for, and for a very good reason.
I am an electrical technician, by trade. If a device is not receiving full power, I view that as poorly designed circuit.
This puts several concerns in my mind. That missing 30% did not just magically disappear.
There is a reason why it is missing, and none that I can think of are good news.
The motherboard manufacturer did not intend for this header to be like this, it is a mistake, a flaw, an error.
The missing 30% is now heat and wasted energy; Most likely, it is weak metal etchings on the motherboard.
If I find a fan header that is weak, I will not use it.

And I know you would NEVER plug a Delta into a header like this.
I also know you were joking, you've probably never seen a weak fan header.
I saw a customer's DELL where the back fan was so weak, you had to push it to get it to start.
With the adaptor, the fan was pretty fast and ran strong.
The fan was not the problem, the header had weakened more with age.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> there're lots of ways to get the job done,
> why keep looking for a difference?
> I highly value differences because they simply made life more colorful.
> and it's always nice to share thought, opinions and different approaches in regard to a similar problem


I question everything. I enjoy thinking and getting challenged, and you both have done a great job at challenging me.








This is the best way to learn, bring new things to light and put a new spin on old knowledge.
I have added a new section to my fix heat problems guide, filters. And I have you two to thank for it.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I read fan reviews on Newegg where reviewers complain about a fan being weak and underpowered.
> I know this fan, and it is not weak. Don't believe everything you read, Knowledge is power !!
> Few high end motherboards have weak headers, so we know this guy does not have a high end motherboard.
> As a computer technician, I carry fan to Molex adaptors and use them often.
> Manufactured computers are real bad about this problem. I've seen an adaptor better than triple the speed of a fan.
> In doing this, I fixed two problems; a once weak fan is now running strong, and a heat problem on the motherboard.
> 
> The nice Thing about PWM control is its pulsed power where the fan gets full current and voltage with each pulse.
> Are you really OK with cutting that by 30%? I'm not. I want every inch of what I paid for, and for a very good reason.
> I am an electrical technician, by trade. If a device is not receiving full power, I view that as poorly designed circuit.
> This puts several concerns in my mind. That missing 30% did not just magically disappear.
> There is a reason why it is missing, and none that I can think of are good news.
> The motherboard manufacturer did not intend for this header to be like this, it is a mistake, a flaw, an error.
> The missing 30% is now heat and wasted energy; Most likely, it is weak metal etchings on the motherboard.
> If I find a fan header that is weak, I will not use it.


that would be depend on the scenario where that 30% gone.
such in my case, I deliberately; with full of conscience holding back 89% of my fan performance than I'll be okay.
BUT, when that 30% went to neverland by the invisible power of wizard of oz, well that's something you should be aware of a "surprise attack" which surely won't be pleasant in the end.

this is an indication that we've overloaded the fan header (or the fan controller).
I would unplug the fan and swap it to something "lighter" in the term of power consumption and see what result I'll get.
I can't really blame the motherboard manufacturer for this, since I consider the fan controller feature as a bonus.
don't stress them too much, and all will be happy








as for the case in fan controllers, we should be aware for the typical voltage saturation, especially if we taxed them too much.

always try to find fans with minimum power requirement for that 3 wire breed.
but, unfortunately power's equal to performance in most of the case.

the 4 wired fans solved this issue,
power coming down as we slowing the fan down and goes up as we ramp its speed up.
just like shown in this vid:




by having a high speed fan, we'll also have its slower model (oh yes, I'm that cheap type guy







)
now, the only matter is cost.
but money should make our life fun, shouldn't it?

I take these consideration when building my PC:
put my $$$ cpu, $$$ graphics, $$ RAMs on the main board, should I cut cost on my main board?
feed my system with PSU, should I cut cost on the PSU?
I cool them all the prolonged their life with fans, so why would I cut corner with fans?









literally building my system from scratch now, just finished picking up few fans that I consider worthy to keep.
the other things still quite some crap, as I bought them 2nd hand and won't be mind if they toasted by my experiments.
as for now, my whole system probably worth less than my fans









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I question everything. I enjoy thinking and getting challenged, and you both have done a great job at challenging me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the best way to learn, bring new things to light and put a new spin on old knowledge.
> I have added a new section to my fix heat problems guide, filters. And I have you two to thank for it.


ahh.... filters.

Luke, what do you think of carbon filters?
I do solder a lot and try to keep my health well (starting now)








nicotine and lead are not the best combo for lungs, huh? LOL
(see I'm still trying cheap for myself, but please don't bother it







)

I'm gonna make my own solder fume filter with this material.
and since I plan to make it portable (with sub 80mm fan), I should have plenty left over of this carbon filter thing


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> that would be depend on the scenario where that 30% gone.


After you eliminate the control element as a limatation, a Weak or loaded circuit are the only possibilities.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> I take these consideration when building my PC:
> put my $$$ cpu, $$$ graphics, $$ RAMs on the main board, should I cut cost on my main board?
> feed my system with PSU, should I cut cost on the PSU?
> I cool them all the prolonged their life with fans, so why would I cut corner with fans?


I do blame the motherboard manufacturer. A fan should do its designed function as a part of a cooling system.
So should the board. So why would the manufacturer cut corners on its cooling systems power?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> Luke, what do you think of carbon filters?


It is a thick black filtration mat a lot like the green one. If it has activated charcoal, it also removes some chemicals from the air, but it has a life span.
They are both great. When they get a little dirty, they still have great flow because its thick fibrous filtration mat gives this stuff a very large filtration area.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> After you eliminate the control element as a limatation, a Weak or loaded circuit are the only possibilities.
> I do blame the motherboard manufacturer. A fan should do its designed function as a part of a cooling system.
> So should the board. So why would the manufacturer cut corners on its cooling systems power?
> It is a thick black filtration mat a lot like the green one. If it has activated charcoal, it also removes some chemicals from the air, but it has a life span.
> They are both great. When they get a little dirty, they still have great flow because its thick fibrous filtration mat gives this stuff a very large filtration area.


Both me and InVain are electronics hobbyists. And not the simple kind either and the only way for them to be weak (If that's true then the trace would be up in smoke) is "throttling"







Or just badly implemented.

I'm never a fan of filters that are disposable. I just don't want to buy a 10 pack of filters and replace them every now and then. That's why I love aluminium mesh filters, easy to clean low restriction and a really high percentage of dust gets caught in them.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Both me and InVain are electronics hobbyists. And not the simple kind either and the only way for them to be weak (If that's true then the trace would be up in smoke) is "throttling"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or just badly implemented..


How would you explain a 2 pin back case fan doing this. There is no voltage control on the average Dell. I see this problem often, it is not a control problem.

This was in an earlier post, It is about the Dell Vostro 200 I was just talking about above.
_I saw a customer's DELL where the back fan was so weak, you had to push it to get it to start.
With the adaptor, the fan was pretty fast and ran strong.
The fan was not the problem, the header had weakened more with age.
Manufactured computers are real bad about this weak header problem._

In the US Air Force, I was a Avionic Navigation Systems Specialist. I repaired and maintained aircraft radar and ground support navigation equipment on combat and non-combat aircraft. Additionally, I performed depot class repair of same electrical equipment for the Pacific USAF Bases (including circuit board troubleshooting and repair). I was also the instrumentation and controls specialist for my shop. I am an electrical technician with 35 years of experience. Not a hobbyists.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> After you eliminate the control element as a limatation, a Weak or loaded circuit are the only possibilities.
> I do blame the motherboard manufacturer. A fan should do its designed function as a part of a cooling system.
> So should the board. So why would the manufacturer cut corners on its cooling systems power?


seeing this from the manufacturers' POV,
they expect their products to stay "healthy" for some certain amount of time (the warranty, things).
but they still need to sell another (or even new products) to preserve their business.

standing as a consumer, I wouldn't buy myself a new slipper till mine had worn out /broken.
(seems irrelevant, but I don't want to push a certain brand to the very corner, here







)

moving out of the two disputing side,
I powered up all of my 4 wired fans straight of the psu, letting my mobo do the easy work (which literally just monitoring their RPM only, LOL)

being such a hobbyist had allowed me (and probably Dave, too) to approach things quite differently than most of you professionals.
I can understand the pressure when something can't meet their intended criteria as subjected on the datasheets or manuals.
collaborative engineering rely on this subject (am I right?).

but as a hobbyist, trouble shooting means a weekend project.
and what could be more fun than having your soldering iron on, with a clear objectives like these during saturday (probably started at friday night







).
without trouble to be solved, we usually fix things (which not broken) until they broke, by the way









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> It is a thick black filtration mat a lot like the green one. If it has activated charcoal, it also removes some chemicals from the air, but it has a life span.
> They are both great. When they get a little dirty, they still have great flow because its thick fibrous filtration mat gives this stuff a very large filtration area.


I don't know they have such a life span.
so having more than I need wouldn't hurt

thanks, Luke


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> seeing this from the manufacturers' POV,
> they expect their products to stay "healthy" for some certain amount of time (the warranty, things).
> but they still need to sell another (or even new products) to preserve their business.


You have just successfully corrected me and won me over to you side.
This weak header problem is way too common to be a mistake, it has to be purposeful.
A timed demise to encourage a replacement, is very logical.

I now understand what Dave was saying, he used the word "control" loosely.
I would not call this weakness a control, they must load the circuit.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> I don't know they have such a life span.
> so having more than I need wouldn't hurt
> thanks, Luke


The activated charcoal gets saturated with the chemicals removes.
With the right equipment, you could clean it and reactivate it.
Its a lot cheaper to cut another one and replace it.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> How would you explain a 2 pin back case fan doing this. There is no voltage control on the average Dell. I see this problem often, it is not a control problem.
> 
> This was in an earlier post, It is about the Dell Vostro 200 I was just talking about above.
> _I saw a customer's DELL where the back fan was so weak, you had to push it to get it to start.
> With the adaptor, the fan was pretty fast and ran strong.
> The fan was not the problem, the header had weakened more with age.
> Manufactured computers are real bad about this weak header problem._
> 
> In the US Air Force, I was a Avionic Navigation Systems Specialist. I repaired and maintained aircraft radar and ground support navigation equipment on combat and non-combat aircraft. Additionally, I performed depot class repair of same electrical equipment for the Pacific USAF Bases (including circuit board troubleshooting and repair). I was also the instrumentation and controls specialist for my shop. I am an electrical technician with 35 years of experience. Not a hobbyists.


I actually have an electronics engineering certification


----------



## Chunky_Chimp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> There is another way, go to the source. With a great Air Purifier for you room or house, you do not have to worry about cleaning restrictive case fan filters, powerful case fans, or any of the problems the case fan filters create. You will rarely need to clean the dust from your computer.
> *Air Purifier, Ozone Generator :* This Ozone Generator fills the room with electrons.
> These electrons attach themselves to all airborne particles in the air. This makes the particles weigh too much to remain airborne.
> The second part is to vacuum these sediments off of the floor every 2 or 3 days.
> These electrons are a normal occurrence in the human body and causes us no harm.
> These Air Purifiers are so good, they can remove smoke from the air and materials like furniture and clothing.
> This is an Air Purifier that has no physical filter. To clean it, you wipe off 2 small metal strips with a damp paper tile. This takes 30 seconds.
> It is by far, the most economical and maintenance free Air Purifier available.
> A good one cost between $200 and $600. If you have breathing problems, or an extremely dusty house, it is well worth the money.


I seriously advise against using these types of filters as the only ones that do a good enough job to warrant the cost also emit too much ozone. If you're not up to speed on basic chemistry, excess ozone can be *poisonous.* Stick to more traditional filters/air washers if you're going to get an air purifier. The better air washers tend to have automatic notifications telling you to refresh the water tank, so you won't have to worry about recirculating dirty air if you pay attention.

That all set aside I finally got around to poring over the guide and while there are a few things that could be added, it's a very good read. I'll see about having this added to Robilar's sticky thread, at least, or when we finally get a new Editor, perhaps the stickies can be completely overhauled and this be featured with them instead of being in a thread.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> You have just successfully corrected me and won me over to you side.
> This weak header problem is way too common to be a mistake, it has to be purposeful.
> A timed demise to encourage a replacement, is very logical.
> 
> I now understand what Dave was saying, he used the word "control" loosely.
> I would not call this weakness a control, they must load the circuit.
> The activated charcoal gets saturated with the chemicals removes.
> With the right equipment, you could clean it and reactivate it.
> Its a lot cheaper to cut another one and replace it.


thanks for your kind words, Luke.
it's always nice to have an expert who's willing to share their thoughts, views and experiences


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chunky_Chimp*
> 
> I seriously advise against using these types of filters as the only ones that do a good enough job to warrant the cost also emit too much ozone. If you're not up to speed on basic chemistry, excess ozone can be *poisonous.* Stick to more traditional filters/air washers if you're going to get an air purifier. The better air washers tend to have automatic notifications telling you to refresh the water tank, so you won't have to worry about recirculating dirty air if you pay attention.
> 
> That all set aside I finally got around to poring over the guide and while there are a few things that could be added, it's a very good read. I'll see about having this added to Robilar's sticky thread, at least, or when we finally get a new Editor, perhaps the stickies can be completely overhauled and this be featured with them instead of being in a thread.


I read this before I went to work. I was looking forward to coming home and telling you why you were wrong. The Alpine Air Purifier, Ozone Generator was demoed to me 15 years ago by a customer. The demo he gave was impressive. He assured me it was safe and I found nothing on the web to dispute his claim. This is no longer true, everything you said is correct. Thanks for the up date.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I actually have an electronics engineering certification


Then you know circuit design, cool.
There are other things besides "throttling" tongue.gif Or just badly implemented, that can cause this.
Can you please list a few?
Which one would best fit the pattern below ?
It would be is very simple, increases with time, and would cause a 2 pin DC fan to run slower on a noncontrolled header?
This weak header problem is way too common to be a mistake, it has to be purposeful.
A timed demise to encourage a replacement computer.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Then you know circuit design, cool.
> There are other things besides "throttling" tongue.gif Or just badly implemented, that can cause this.
> Can you please list a few?
> Which one would best fit the pattern below ?
> It would be is very simple, increases with time, and would cause a 2 pin DC fan to run slower on a noncontrolled header?
> This weak header problem is way too common to be a mistake, it has to be purposeful.
> A timed demise to encourage a replacement computer.


I think I can suspect that the fan trace designs have poor grounding.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I read this before I went to work. I was looking forward to coming home and telling you why you were wrong. The Alpine Air Purifier, Ozone Generator was demoed to me 15 years ago by a customer. The demo he gave was impressive. He assured me it was safe and I found nothing on the web to dispute his claim. This is no longer true, everything you said is correct. Thanks for the up date.


That's why you won't see massive HV transformers right next to your house







Their byproduct effectively is an enormous ozone generator and yes even pure oxygen is somewhat poisonous to us in big concentrations. Ozone in the lower atmosphere on the other hand ... is OXIDISING. Ouch. And will even kill sensitive plants.
BTW ozone has an peculiar and refreshing smell. What happens after multiple lightning strikes in an area creates a lot of ozone


----------



## -Ultima-

@DaveLT

*Sidepanel-Fans*
Quote:


> 1)If you are using a blower GPU, intake please.
> 2)Aftermarket design? It's obvious. Exhaust


What if i have a Tower and TBlow-Cooler on the CPU and a Cyclone-Cooler on the GPU?









My room-temp is 22°celsius


Atm i have:
2x 120mm Front Push
2x 120mm Top Pull
1x 120mm Side Push
1x 140mm Side Push




In the future i will place a 120mm Slim-fan behind the Tower-Cooler.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I think I can suspect that the fan trace designs have poor grounding.


Ground pulls less amperage than positive. I doubt that is it , but it is possible.
An in-path resistor on ether side of the circuit is more likely. I wish I could see a schematic, the guessing would be over.
This is easy enough to check. I believe I took that Dell Vostro 200 in on a trade, I think I now own it.
Ill bring it up soon and see. I will pull the positive pin, connect the negative lead to the header, and positive only will come from the PS.
If the problem is still there, you guessed incorrectly.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> That's why you won't see massive HV transformers right next to your house
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their byproduct effectively is an enormous ozone generator and yes even pure oxygen is somewhat poisonous to us in big concentrations. Ozone in the lower atmosphere on the other hand ... is OXIDISING. Ouch. And will even kill sensitive plants.
> BTW ozone has an peculiar and refreshing smell. What happens after multiple lightning strikes in an area creates a lot of ozone


Its all around us.There are lots of places that didn't get the memo, I often see Alpine Air Purifiers in restaurants and pubs. All copies printers and faxes with photo conductors have from two to five carona units. A carona unit is an Ozone Generator. High voltage lines on telephone poles, lightning, micro waves, TVs, anywhere you find static electricity or high voltage, you will find ozone being generated. The one saving grace is, the dosage is not high enough to cause problems.

Plants breath carbonmonoxide, a lack of it (like heavily oxidized air) will kill them.
Humans need moderation, huge doses of anything is bad for us, even water.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Ground pulls less amperage than positive. I doubt that is it , but it is possible.
> An in-path resistor on ether side of the circuit is more likely. I wish I could see a schematic, the guessing would be over.
> This is easy enough to check. I believe I took that Dell Vostro 200 in on a trade, I think I now own it.
> Ill bring it up soon and see. I will pull the positive pin, connect the negative lead to the header, and positive only will come from the PS.
> If the problem is still there, you guessed incorrectly.


it just came across my mind.
but how bout the possibility of a "degrading solder joint reliability"?

just googling this subject and I had it related with; thermal aging, thermomechanical fatigue (whatever it is







), vibrations, mechanical shock, and humidity.

also worth to take into consideration that solder a joint is not a welding joint.
but on a fan header (with the typical straight connectors commonly found on a motherboard), all the stress during the plugging and unpluging the fan were relied on the solder joints.

the equipments required to spot these problems would be insanely expensive, but a solder reflow (or reworks) should fix this


----------



## nick779

Is there any difference between the deltas with a solid plastic hub, and the ones that have the metal housing showing?

For instance This: http://sishardware.com/imgs/a/a/p/r/v/delta_afb1212vhe_dc_brushless_12v_120mm_x_120mm_x_38mm_box_of_18_units_3_lgw.jpg
vs This: http://i.pchub.com/i/Delta-Electronics-AFB1212SH-Server-Square-Fan-AFB1212SH-1-84215.jpg

Assuming theyre the same fan I have 4 AFB1212HH with the metal hub showing, all 4 are PWM, I also have 3 HHs that are totally plastic, 2 are 3 pin, 1 is 4.

The metal hub ones seem to be a bit quieter and seem to be a bit more solid.


----------



## richie_2010

Hi guys. What would you all say are the best/decent fans for radiators and case airflow.
I was looking at a few bitfenix and enemax ones I was looking for all white ones but thats not a necessaty
Im planning all my mods to the case and I didnt want ruin my gentle typhoons by painting them.

Also to ask how much do you think 13 scythe gt 1850s are worth


----------



## twerk

Which Delta AFB1212M version has a tach output for reading the RPM? The standard AFB1212M that I have has a 2-pin terminator.

I think it's the AFB1212M-F00?


----------



## CrazyElf

On the AFB1224ME, the SP00 version has the rpm reading.

Not as sure though for the 25mm thick version.

Where are you buying from? If it is a site like Ali express be sure to ask the seller about it and look at the pictures provided.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Ultima-*
> 
> @DaveLT
> 
> *Sidepanel-Fans*
> What if i have a Tower and TBlow-Cooler on the CPU and a Cyclone-Cooler on the GPU?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My room-temp is 22°celsius
> 
> 
> Atm i have:
> 2x 120mm Front Push
> 2x 120mm Top Pull
> 1x 120mm Side Push
> 1x 140mm Side Push
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the future i will place a 120mm Slim-fan behind the Tower-Cooler.


Cyclone GPU coolers are still aftermarket heatsinks. I would let the CPU have it's temp zone by not setting the top fan for exhaust


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twerk*
> 
> Which Delta AFB1212M version has a tach output for reading the RPM? The standard AFB1212M that I have has a 2-pin terminator.
> 
> I think it's the AFB1212M-F00?


Yes it is.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> it just came across my mind.
> but how bout the possibility of a "degrading solder joint reliability"?
> 
> just googling this subject and I had it related with; thermal aging, thermomechanical fatigue (whatever it is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), vibrations, mechanical shock, and humidity.
> 
> also worth to take into consideration that solder a joint is not a welding joint.
> but on a fan header (with the typical straight connectors commonly found on a motherboard), all the stress during the plugging and unpluging the fan were relied on the solder joints.
> 
> the equipments required to spot these problems would be insanely expensive, but a solder reflow (or reworks) should fix this


How could I forget about failing solder joints ._.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Is there any difference between the deltas with a solid plastic hub, and the ones that have the metal housing showing?
> 
> For instance This: http://sishardware.com/imgs/a/a/p/r/v/delta_afb1212vhe_dc_brushless_12v_120mm_x_120mm_x_38mm_box_of_18_units_3_lgw.jpg
> vs This: http://i.pchub.com/i/Delta-Electronics-AFB1212SH-Server-Square-Fan-AFB1212SH-1-84215.jpg
> 
> Assuming theyre the same fan I have 4 AFB1212HH with the metal hub showing, all 4 are PWM, I also have 3 HHs that are totally plastic, 2 are 3 pin, 1 is 4.
> 
> The metal hub ones seem to be a bit quieter and seem to be a bit more solid.


There are no differences except that the afb1212vhe is an 38mm thick fan not an afb1212vh (eg) that is an 25mm thick fan. That's because the design for that particular fan stretches from 1500rpm to 5500rpm ... Moar cooling needs at the top end. It won't be more solid and it won't have any effects either.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *richie_2010*
> 
> Hi guys. What would you all say are the best/decent fans for radiators and case airflow.
> I was looking at a few bitfenix and enemax ones I was looking for all white ones but thats not a necessaty
> Im planning all my mods to the case and I didnt want ruin my gentle typhoons by painting them.
> 
> Also to ask how much do you think 13 scythe gt 1850s are worth


Bitfenix and enermax are BIG NO-NOs.


----------



## Argorn5757

First of Dave I wanted to say thank you for this awesome thread! I went out and bought some JetFlow's for my case and I absolutely love them!









(for you or anyone else







} I have a question about the orientation of my fans. My case is a HAF 912. I currently have the two front fans and the side fan as intakes, and the upper left fan an the exhaust.

I still have room for two 120mm fans at the top though, and I'm wondering if I should make them intakes or outtakes.

(pic is related; blue = intake, red = exhaust, orange is where I want to add fans)

Thanks again for a really awesome guide!









+


----------



## vlaint

Planning on buying a delta on aliexpress. what would be the better option of the 2 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DELTA-Delta-AFB1212L-12025-DC-12v-0-21A/898413526.html or http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Delta-fan-AFB1212SH-12V-0-80A-Cooling-Fan-Good-Quality/754935819.html
Also if i need a fan controller just in case it will be too noisy as intake what would you guys suggest?thanks


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Argorn5757*
> 
> First of Dave I wanted to say thank you for this awesome thread! I went out and bought some JetFlow's for my case and I absolutely love them!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (for you or anyone else
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> } I have a question about the orientation of my fans. My case is a HAF 912. I currently have the two front fans and the side fan as intakes, and the upper left fan an the exhaust.
> 
> I still have room for two 120mm fans at the top though, and I'm wondering if I should make them intakes or outtakes.
> 
> (pic is related; blue = intake, red = exhaust, orange is where I want to add fans)
> 
> Thanks again for a really awesome guide!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +


That depends largely on your hardware


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> Planning on buying a delta on aliexpress. what would be the better option of the 2 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DELTA-Delta-AFB1212L-12025-DC-12v-0-21A/898413526.html or http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Delta-fan-AFB1212SH-12V-0-80A-Cooling-Fan-Good-Quality/754935819.html
> Also if i need a fan controller just in case it will be too noisy as intake what would you guys suggest?thanks


the SH is PWM control, the L is voltage control


----------



## richie_2010

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yes it is.
> How could I forget about failing solder joints ._.
> There are no differences except that the afb1212vhe is an 38mm thick fan not an afb1212vh (eg) that is an 25mm thick fan. That's because the design for that particular fan stretches from 1500rpm to 5500rpm ... Moar cooling needs at the top end. It won't be more solid and it won't have any effects either.
> Bitfenix and enermax are BIG NO-NOs.


what would you say to go for instead of them or stick to my gts and paint em


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yes it is.
> How could I forget about failing solder joints ._.
> There are no differences except that the afb1212vhe is an 38mm thick fan not an afb1212vh (eg) that is an 25mm thick fan. That's because the design for that particular fan stretches from 1500rpm to 5500rpm ... Moar cooling needs at the top end. It won't be more solid and it won't have any effects either.
> Bitfenix and enermax are BIG NO-NOs.


I was just using those pictures for reference, assuming theyre both AFB1212HHs is there a difference between the plastic hub and the metal hub?


----------



## Argorn5757

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> That depends largely on your hardware


oh right of course









I have a 212 Evo cpu cooler on an x4 965 be (running at stock), and a 7850 gpu with stock cooling. Thanks!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *richie_2010*
> 
> what would you say to go for instead of them or stick to my gts and paint em


Try a CM Jetflo 120 White LED.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> I was just using those pictures for reference, assuming theyre both AFB1212HHs is there a difference between the plastic hub and the metal hub?


Not really.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Argorn5757*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> That depends largely on your hardware
> 
> 
> 
> oh right of course
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 212 Evo cpu cooler on an x4 965 be (running at stock), and a 7850 gpu with stock cooling. Thanks!
Click to expand...

The only setup that would make sense it to put ONE fan in the roof as far forward as possible as INTAKE.

If you would put two fans as exhaust in the roof, they would drag the hot air around the GPU upwards which would have a negative effect on the CPU.


----------



## HandsomeChow

Hey DaveLT, how good are the FFB1212SH Delta fans, i just got two for 18 bucks.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Hey DaveLT, how good are the FFB1212SH Delta fans, i just got two for 18 bucks.


Not for the faint hearted


----------



## HandsomeChow

DaveLT

I forgot to ask you this the other day, can you power one FFB1212SH through a 3 pin motherboard header? The fan requires 1.24 amps and i am not sure if my Sabertooth Z77 can support that kind of wattage. I could not find any specs regarding the wattage limit of the fan headers on Asus.


----------



## RnRollie

Unless the MB manufacturer signed a document in blood saying the header is 2Amp, you should assume 1Amp


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> DaveLT
> 
> I forgot to ask you this the other day, can you power one FFB1212SH through a 3 pin motherboard header? The fan requires 1.24 amps and i am not sure if my Sabertooth Z77 can support that kind of wattage. I could not find any specs regarding the wattage limit of the fan headers on Asus.


1.24amps is the peak current, It won't pull anything close to that nominally so it should be fine


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RnRollie*
> 
> Unless the MB manufacturer signed a document in blood saying the header is 2Amp, you should assume 1Amp


some were even @0.5A only, though


----------



## HandsomeChow

Well, all i have to do is hope for the best. If it pops, it will make a good story to tell


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 1.24amps is the peak current, It won't pull anything close to that nominally so it should be fine


Using voltage control. this is true, but on PWM or no control, This is NOT true.
Dave, you know how PWM works (If you don't, see below).
On a PWM fan, during the 5 volt trigger pulse's duty cycle, the fan receives 100% of the current and voltage that is available to the fan's motor.
Never pay attention to peak power, look for continuous power.
Why take a chance on violating this limit when it is so easy to get around.

Been there, done that.
This (below) is from an article that I wrote "*How to fix Heat Problems*"

*Fan plug receptacle amp draw limits:* The main board's CPU fan receptacle has a 1 amp limit. This is the limit of the current carrying capacity of the metal etching on the printed circuit board. On my Main Board, violating this limit with a 1.3 amp fan caused the BIOS to reset a few times before I figured what the problem was, but I was lucky, it could have damaged my main board. All of the other main board fan receptacles also have the same 1 amp limit, but powerful fans are rarely needed on them. If your CPU cooling fan (or fans) will exceed this 1 amp limit, you will need to use ether a special power connection adapter, or an add-on fan controller. Fan controllers have their current limitations posted in their specifications. On the special power connection adapters, pins 1&2 connect directly to the power supply, and pins 3&4 connect to the CPU fan header or a controller. This type of adapter has the highest limit; it's normally limited only by the wire gauge of the connecting wire. If you only have the fan's wattage and you need to know the amp draw, use this equation; watts/volts = amps. The fans we use are made to run on 12 volts.

*PWM control-* (Pulse-width modulation). This method requires a 4 pin PWM fan. The way PWM works is; the fan control modulates the width of the trigger pulse's duty cycle that is sent to the fan plug's pin 4. A duty cycle is the percentage of one pulse in which this square wave trigger is at an active (5 volt) level. The fan's applied power (12 volts) mimics this (5 volt, 25 kHz) trigger. This means that If the square wave trigger's 5 volt duty cycle is 40% of the pulse, 12 volts powers the motor for the duration of this duty cycle, then turns the motor off for 60% of this time because the trigger is at 0 volts. This causes the motor to run at 40% of its maximum speed. Simply put: pin 4's trigger turns the fan's motor on and off 25000 times per second (25 kHz); The longer the switch is on compared to the off time, the faster the fan goes. Because the full voltage, current, and torque is always available to the motor at any speed, the motor runs better, cooler, and quieter. If the power connections come directly from the power supply; one PWM control signal can simultaneously control several PWM fans, and there is no limit to the current it can control. PWM control is, by far, my preferred choice.


----------



## DaveLT

Uh, how long have I been watching delta fans?







And remember, I do have a cert in EE. Fans need more power to drive them ... if they're STATIONARY. PWM isn't 1 second delay in between pulses








Proper quality mobos from ASUS can handle 2 amp surge no issue. SURGE. AS IN STARTING CURRENT FROM STATIONARY. 0RPM. (WS mobos can handle even more)
1amp constant is no issue and delta datasheets do state 1amp constant.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Uh, how long have I been watching delta fans?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And remember, I do have a cert in EE. Fans need more power to drive them ... if they're STATIONARY. PWM isn't 1 second delay in between pulses
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proper quality mobos from ASUS can handle 2 amp surge no issue. SURGE. AS IN STARTING CURRENT FROM STATIONARY. 0RPM. (WS mobos can handle even more)
> 1amp constant is no issue and delta datasheets do state 1amp constant.


OK. I have a nice 68Z MSI overclocking board that did not like a Delta 1.3 amp on a CPU PWM header set to 35 or 50%.
PWM isn't 1 second delay in between pulses ???
This is true, the pulses are 1/25000 of a second apart.
SURGE. AS IN STARTING CURRENT FROM STATIONARY
If you look at it from that angle; From start, the fan motor's amp draw is very high, This decreases till the fan reaches full speed.
*From this premise.*
Shorter duration pulses should use more amperage during each pulse because there is more acceleration involved.
This means that if a fan is accelerating from 20% speed, there is a lot more load then there would be from the 80% point.
Overall, the 20% point would appear to use less amperage, but this is a deceptive reading.
Shorter duty cycles have a shorter duration but higher amp draw during that duration.
In my learned opinion:
We are mainly concerned with the amp draw during the trigger pulse's duty cycle; use the rating that is printed on the fan.
In HandsomeChow's post, he ask about a 3 pin 1.25 amp fan.
With no control or voltage control, the header circuit must still deal with the load potential of that motor. The rules don't change.
Your rule has exceptions; mine plays it safe and protects motherboards.

If the average (.65 amps) is all we care about, WHY did my 68Z MSI have a problem when my Delta 1.3 amp fan was set to 50%.
Why did my BIOS stop resetting when I connected the fan's pin 1 and 2 directly to the power supply?
My trouble shooting and conclusions are logical. It fixed the problem, I have never seen this problem again.
It was also having a problem with very slow starts; that too is fixed.
Pin 3 and 4 are still connected to the header, and PWM control keeps this fan at 50% unless the CPU goes past 120°F.
In that case, it goes to 100% till the temp comes back down.

The bottom line is, I followed the advice you gave to the guy with the 1.25 amp fan, and did not have very good luck.
My Delta 1.3 amp fan, set to 50%, plugged solely into the PWM CPU header, on a HQ OC board, is an undeniable FAIL.



Is it better to tell people that CPU fan headers have a one amp limit, or deal with all of the ifs ands and buts???


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Well, all I have to do is hope for the best. If it pops, it will make a good story to tell


You're funny and have a good sense of humor, That's an expensive pop.

If you are really going to try it, do it with the motherboard out of the case. Run it for a minute or two, remove power, then feel the circuit under that header (bottom of the board). If it is hot or causing problems, you know it is a bad move. Do this type of testing until you are comfortable with your decision. This is not fool proof, but it is your best chance of inexpensively answering your question.

When a safe wiring configuration is so easy to do, I personally would not take the chance.
But if you are still incline to try it, please share the results with us.


----------



## HandsomeChow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> You're funny and have a good sense of humor, That's an expensive pop.
> 
> If you are really going to try it, do it with the motherboard out of the case. Run it for a minute or two, remove power, then feel the circuit under that header (bottom of the board). If it is hot or causing problems, you know it is a bad move. Do this type of testing until you are comfortable with your decision. This is not fool proof, but it is your best chance of inexpensively answering your question.
> 
> When a safe wiring configuration is so easy to do, I personally would not take the chance.
> But if you are still incline to try it, please share the results with us.


Hey man, its cool and all actually, the fans only come on when temps reach a certain limit i set. I was running them on around 40% with voltage control. It has ok temps at around 50 near the header but goes to full till 60 when on full blast. Temps are in celcius. You are right, it does get hot when the fans are on. Didn't blow up though









I want to ask you about the PWM stuff you talked about earlier on. Correct me if i am wrong, but the PWM controller is isolated from the actual power driver right? The PWM controller sends 5V PWM signals that is transformed into 12V PWM signals through the driver right?
Second question is: Lets say there is one PWM duty cycle (One Pulse), There is a on and off time right? If the fan is running at 50%, the cycle would be up 50% of the time and down 50% of the time right? However, during the uptime of the pulse, full voltage and full current is giving to the fan right? So the PWM concept is giving the fan bursts of 12 volt power right? Say if the fan needs 0.65 As and runs on 12V, would the PWM be giving short pulses of 12V, 0.65As energy to the fan?
Third question is how does voltage control work: Is it just lowering voltage in proportion to the RPM?


----------



## Luke Cool

.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Hey man, its cool and all actually, the fans only come on when temps reach a certain limit i set. I was running them on around 40% with voltage control. It has ok temps at around 50 near the header but goes to full till 60 when on full blast. Temps are in celcius. You are right, it does get hot when the fans are on. Didn't blow up though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to ask you about the PWM stuff you talked about earlier on. Correct me if i am wrong, but the PWM controller is isolated from the actual power driver right? The PWM controller sends 5V PWM signals that is transformed into 12V PWM signals through the driver right?
> Second question is: Lets say there is one PWM duty cycle (One Pulse), There is a on and off time right? If the fan is running at 50%, the cycle would be up 50% of the time and down 50% of the time right? However, during the uptime of the pulse, full voltage and full current is giving to the fan right? So the PWM concept is giving the fan bursts of 12 volt power right? Say if the fan needs 0.65 As and runs on 12V, would the PWM be giving short pulses of 12V, 0.65As energy to the fan?
> Third question is how does voltage control work: Is it just lowering voltage in proportion to the RPM?


Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no, and yes.
The only thing you got wrong is the "0.65As energy to the fan" part.
PWM control limits the duration of the burst, it does not limit current or voltage.
If the header is rated for one amp, that is what is available (EDIT without damaging the circuit) . The fan only uses what it needs.
If it needs more than one amp and only one amp is available, the circuit will get very hot.
Current starvation will not hurt the motor, but it will damage the circuit.
The load potential of the fan would be higher than the load potential of the circuit.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> .
> Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no, and yes.
> The only thing you got wrong is the "0.65As energy to the fan" part.
> PWM control limits the duration of the burst, it does not limit current or voltage.
> If the header is rated for one amp, that is what is available. The fan only uses what it needs.
> If it needs more than one amp and only one amp is available, the circuit will get very hot.
> Current starvation will not hurt the motor, but it will damage the circuit.
> The load potential of the fan would be higher than the load potential of the circuit.


If it's a bit over 1amp (like 30mA) would it matter? Nope.
Current starvation won't damage the circuit dude. If there's that much voltage drop the fan will lower it's current usage as well. Basic electronics, bro


----------



## inVain

since not everybody is a certified EE, it's probably better to take this current matters into something more common and practical in our daily routines.

I believe we can consider these current matters as a bridge.
we can expect luck when we're gonna passing a bridge rated at 2000 kgs while we're carrying 2100 kgs by moving as fast as you can. Run Forest Ruuuuunnnnnnn!!!!!
exceeding too much, we all know what'll happen next









and there's still one more consideration needed to take into account;
the bridge specs wasn't overrated at the first place









need to edit this post since a friend told me about the velocity.
I totally forgot this as I tried to take the current matter on to something much simpler manner for our noobs sake








he told me:

"Did you know a 800 lb. Harley (motorcycle) weighs about 120 lbs. at 70 MPH.
This is simple vector mathematics.
The "forward velocity" vector takes from the "how much force is exerted on the ground" vector.
You are better off passing this bridge very quickly."

furthermore, he said;
"On your bridge, voltage is speed, current is weight."

guess next time I just don't carry that extra loads on one trip, huh?
crossing the bridge twice should be better than swimming a river full of piranhas


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> If it's a bit over 1amp (like 30mA) would it matter? Nope.
> Current starvation won't damage the circuit dude. If there's that much voltage drop the fan will lower it's current usage as well. Basic electronics, bro


You are looking at this from the wrong perspective.
And yes, 30mA = .03 Amps = .36 watts, this is a very small amount. Another drop in a glass of water matters little.

In our computers; the wire, connector or fan circuitry will not limit the current, circuit limitations are determined by the weakest component in the circuit path. In this circuit, the weak place is the metal etchings on the printed circuit board. The ONE amp rating tells us that this circuit can safely carry one amp without overheating. This does not mean that only one amp is available, because most of these lines have over 10 amps available through them. A 1.7 amp fan will draw 1.7 amps from the "one amp fan header" and fry the metal etchings on the printed circuit board. A fan draws the current that it needs, if the fan's needs exceed the current capacity of the circuit, the limiting part of the circuit will overheat. Our fan's speed is controlled in two ways "voltage pulse duration" or " amount of voltage". The current should never be limited, the fan should always be provided with access to what ever it needs.

SO, Current starvation can easily damage a circuit. I'm not sure if this is basic electronics, but the concept is fairly easy.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> since not everybody is a certified EE, it's probably better to take this current matters into something more common and practical in our daily routines.
> 
> I believe we can consider these current matters as a bridge.
> we can expect luck when we're gonna passing a bridge rated at 2000 kgs while we're carrying 2100 kgs by moving slowly.
> exceeding too much, we all know what'll happen next
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and there's still one more consideration needed to take into account;
> the bridge specs wasn't overrated at the first place


Good analogy.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> You are looking at this from the wrong perspective.
> And yes, 30mA = .03 Amps = .36 watts, this is a very small amount. Another drop in a glass of water matters little.
> 
> In our computers; the wire, connector or fan circuitry will not limit the current, circuit limitations are determined by the weakest component in the circuit path. In this circuit, the weak place is the metal etchings on the printed circuit board. The ONE amp rating tells us that this circuit can safely carry one amp without overheating. This does not mean that only one amp is available, because most of these lines have over 10 amps available through them. A 1.7 amp fan will draw 1.7 amps from the "one amp fan header" and fry the metal etchings on the printed circuit board. A fan draws the current that it needs, if the fan's needs exceed the current capacity of the circuit, the limiting part of the circuit will overheat. Our fan's speed is controlled in two ways "voltage pulse duration" or " amount of voltage". The current should never be limited, the fan should always be provided with access to what ever it needs.
> 
> SO, Current starvation can easily damage a circuit. I'm not sure if this is basic electronics, but the concept is fairly easy.


No seriously just no with that.
30mA is nothing compared to *I don't know* say 1000mA?
Truth is in part the limitation arrives with the connectors themselves. Molex rates them at 1A ... And is always the case but they often carry more than they can. Also that 1A rating for usual mobos are done with NO heating at all








The wot? Current starvation won't kill a fan. That's not even electronics because ... Ohm's law. If you're gonna disobey that then you're just being wrong, really. To be honest.

30mA OVER 1A is nothing. 700mA over 1A is something, of course. The copper/gold traces on a PCB surely will handle more than 1A ... If it's gonna be ASUS which don't make terrible boards like early MSI or LOW RENT MSI boards.
1A with 12V traces have got be thinner than 0.3mm if that's the case ... Remember, copper traces or gold traces can conduct very well and dissipate heat a lot better than wires.
Also, 1A is what we power guys consider "signal" basically








And it's often always low rent headers that burn out not the traces.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Third question is how does voltage control work: Is it just lowering voltage in proportion to the RPM?


to take things easier, we can assume the control method as:

accelerating and decelerating.
this only apply on a 4 wired fan, though. and "if" it were controlled as it intended to be.

imagine if you're paddling a bike, you need to paddle harder in order to go faster.
thus you'll need more power.
going slower, and you'll save your energy

the actual 4 wired fan's power consumption when it's properly controlled via it's control line can be seen on this vid:
(you can see the power meter goes down as the fan is slowing down and vice versa)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*


p.s I'd prefer the term "control line" for the 4th pin, as the 25kHz PWM only applied on PC fans according to the standard form factors issued by intel.
on an industrial grade fans, there are more variations on the working PWM frequency.
heck, I even had a fan model that require linear voltage to control its speed









as for the voltage control.
we can consider this as a "braking mechanism".
the 2 or 3 wired fans were missing its control line (by not having the 4th wire).

we're dealing with a constant speed when dealing with these kind of fans.
so add an additional "brake" will be our only option to control these kind of fans.
and just like on the actual braking system.
each time we hit the brake, brake pads (on a bike) will be exhausted.
how much stress does it suffer will be depend on the speed of the bike.

as in our fan's case, this braking mechanism is the fan controller.
and we can consider the fan load (amperage) as the bike's speed.
heavy loads were considered to be inefficient to be controlled by this mechanism, since the unused voltage will be wasted as heat.
extreme loads might even toast it.

of course we can use the "braking mechanism" on 4 wired fans, but it would be such a big waste, wouldn't it?

another way to control the voltage is by applying PWM on the supply line to the fans (which have enough currents to drive fan(s)).
50% duty cycle means halve of the voltage, 25% means a quarter, and so on.
still efficient from the power usage, but the fans might be suffer from a fast "on/off" phasing switch.
noise or unused rpm feedback are the best side effect we can expect.
the worst?
I don't even bother to know since I don't try this method on my hard earn fans, I'm afraid


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> No seriously just no with that.
> 30mA is nothing compared to *I don't know* say 1000mA?
> Truth is in part the limitation arrives with the connectors themselves. Molex rates them at 1A ... And is always the case but they often carry more than they can. Also that 1A rating for usual mobos are done with NO heating at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The wot? Current starvation won't kill a fan. That's not even electronics because ... Ohm's law. If you're gonna disobey that then you're just being wrong, really. To be honest.
> 
> 30mA OVER 1A is nothing. 700mA over 1A is something, of course. The copper/gold traces on a PCB surely will handle more than 1A ... If it's gonna be ASUS which don't make terrible boards like early MSI or LOW RENT MSI boards.
> 1A with 12V traces have got be thinner than 0.3mm if that's the case ... Remember, copper traces or gold traces can conduct very well and dissipate heat a lot better than wires.
> Also, 1A is what we power guys consider "signal" basically
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it's often always low rent headers that burn out not the traces.


http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm.
An 18 gauge wire can handle 16 Amps (192 watts),
http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/ps/PS-8981-4M4P.pdf.
A Molex-8981 connector is rated for
18 AWG - 08 AMPS - 96 watts ** 16 AWG - 10 AMPS - 120 watts ** 14 AWG - 10 AMPS - 120 watts
Don't believe me, here is the specs from the manufacturer. You're off a ways.
The header connection is also well over an amp,
I will look it up for us if I need to. The same connector is used on 2.5 amp fans.
The solder connections on the header are part of the traces, the same way the crimp is part of the Molex.
But what you say about the solder is true.
I work on boards, I do repair traces, and solder is the problem 85% of the time.

Your statement: Current starvation won't kill a fan. We have never disagreed here.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Third question is how does voltage control work: Is it just lowering voltage in proportion to the RPM?


http://www.eeweb.com/blog/extreme_circuits/two-basic-motor-speed-controllers
This schematic is a voltage control circuit.



VR1 is the variable resistor that adjust the motor's speed, its output adjust the trigger voltage to the first transistor.
The first transistor's (Q1) trigger is at the base (B) at 0 to 5 volts.
At (E), the minimum output is 0 volts, maximum output is 7 volts.
This transistors output is the trigger for the second transistor.
The second transistor's (Q2) trigger is at the base (B) at 0 to 7 volts.
At (E), the minimum output is 0 volts, maximum output is 12 volts.
As you can see, a transistor is a smaller variable trigger voltage controlling a larger voltage and at greater amount of current. The larger voltage mimics the trigger.
This particular circuit does this job in two steps.
The circuit is designed like this as to take advantage of each transistor's specific efficiency range.
The other components are only there to balance the circuit.
This is a typical example of a voltage control circuit.
In our motherboards, VR1 is replaced by a trigger voltage controlled by the motherboard.

This circuit (with a speaker instead of a motor), is also a typical example of an audio amplifier. Some amplifiers have 7 or more steps. These additional steps assures that the larger voltage mimics the audio trigger very accurately.

The best feature of voltage control is, it works on any fan (2 , 3, and 4 pin fans). This system adjust (with a variable trigger) the voltage that is going to the motor in pins 1 and 2. It accomplishes this one of two ways, it uses a rheostat as a variable resistor OR a rectifier or transistor (with a heat sink). This limits the voltage that is available to the motor (see above). This type of circuit works well at medium to high speeds, but produces a lot of heat as it limits voltage, is inefficient and has very poor low-speed control.

inVain described this in a slightly different way. This post will not suit as many people, it is for those that prefer a more technical type of explanation.


----------



## HandsomeChow

I get the circuit diagram thanks.
I can't help but read the on going argument on Fans.
What is current starvation?
And Invain said something about wasted energy as heat due to unused voltages, i thought that only happens in linear regulators.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> I get the circuit diagram thanks.
> I can't help but read the on going argument on Fans.
> What is current starvation?
> And Invain said something about wasted energy as heat due to unused voltages, i thought that only happens in linear regulators.


oh....
I believed, Luke took the "amplification" approach.
the circuit's amplifying the divided voltage by the resistor network.

on my previous explanation, I used the regulator approach to control the voltage.
something like this:


its super simple, but with lot of limitations of course









and don't forget,
the circuit require a higher voltage input than what it's outputted (15v on the schematic posted by Luke, and mine require higher as well).
that 3v alone might be dissipated as heat and will increase as it's dropping more voltage.

our PSU only supplying 12v so there's a chance we'll lose few RPM of our fan's with this method of control


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> I get the circuit diagram thanks.
> I can't help but read the on going argument on Fans.
> What is current starvation?
> And Invain said something about wasted energy as heat due to unused voltages, i thought that only happens in linear regulators.


Current starvation is where the circuit is unable to provide enough current to adequately supply the load. Simply put, the circuit is overloaded. Current is rated in amps. Current starvation is rarely a problem for the load because the load is one of the strongest parts in the circuit; in this scenario where the circuit is overloaded, the weakest part, at some point, will fail.

Invain is correct. The heat being generated due to unused voltages is wasted energy, it is a problem with all methods of voltage control.

(EDIT: the first part is an incorrect observation, see post 817)
The stepped resistor method that *Invain* was talking about is very similar to the rheostat method.
The transistor method is the best of the three, because it has a lesser extent of the same flaws.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> oh....
> I believed, Luke took the "amplification" approach.
> the circuit's amplifying the divided voltage by the resistor network.


Except for VR1, The resistors and diodes are there to balance and set up the circuit.
The transistors do most of the work, and are what makes this method more efficient.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Except for VR1, The resistors and diodes are there to balance and set up the circuit.
> The transistors do most of the work, and are what makes this method more efficient.


I see...
and yes, this circuit will be better than what I mentioned earlier.

since this transistor were also common in audio amplifier topology.
would this design become hotter as the fan go faster?
I've seen mine runs hotter with louder volume level (but it's an AB /chip-amp class)
I assume the transistors would work harder as they should provide more juice.

2 transistors are quite easy to setup.
and the TO-3 packages are easy to mount on a heatsink
I'd probably give it a try when having a 3 wire fan around to play with.


----------



## el gappo

@DaveLT I want to feature this thread on the carousel and twitter etc later on. Can you point me to a picture of the most badass air cooled rig in this thread?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> I see...
> and yes, this circuit will be better than what I mentioned earlier.
> 
> since this transistor were also common in audio amplifier topology.
> would this design become hotter as the fan go faster?
> I've seen mine runs hotter with louder volume level (but it's an AB /chip-amp class)
> I assume the transistors would work harder as they should provide more juice.
> 
> 2 transistors are quite easy to setup.
> and the TO-3 packages are easy to mount on a heatsink
> I'd probably give it a try when having a 3 wire fan around to play with.


On all three voltage control methods; the more resistance, the more heat.
So this would mean, at 12 volts output, there is no resistance, and almost no heat.
The lower the voltages output, the more the voltage is restricted, and the more heat.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*


I glanced at this circuit earlier, and then got it wrong.








I concentrated on what was said in post 807, rather than just looking at this schematic.
I just took the time to look at and research this schematic, I now wish to correct my error.

This is a single step rectifier voltage controller. This circuit works very similar to the circuit I showed.
The circuit I showed used a 5 volt trigger, this one uses a ground trigger.
The more ground, ADJ sees through R2, the more voltage it will let through the rectifier (the square thing), then the faster the fan will go.
R1 is there to balance the circuit. The capacitors are there for noise control.
Each capacitor charges and discharges at a specific frequency, this makes them ideal for use as a filter.
They can short this particular frequency to ground and eliminate it. It is also used in this way to prevent feedback into the circuit from the motor.
DC voltage is not suppose to have a frequency, any frequencies present in a DC voltage are considered noise.
Circuits like LM317 (above) are common in external fan controls, but never on a motherboard.

The stepped resistor method (I talked about in post 812) uses a bank of resistors and a multiple-step switch.
This switch ether brings in additional resistors to slow the motor down more, or it changes resistors.
I have never seen a motherboard use this method of voltage control, and very few external fan controls use it.


----------



## Luke Cool

I can see that some are having problems following all that is said because of a lack of understanding of the terms "amps, volts, and watts"

*Ampere, Amperage, amp, current*

The number of (charged) particles transiting per unit time,
Think of it as the electronic congestion of the flow.
*Voltage, volt,*

The difference in voltage measured when moving from point A to point B is equal to the work which would have to be done, per unit charge, against the electric field to move the charge from A to B.
A unit of electromotive force, the difference of potential that would drive one ampere of current against one ohm resistance.
Think of it as the electronic pressure of the flow.
*Wattage, electronic power*

The rate at which electric energy is transferred by an electric circuit.
A measure of electronic power that has specific numerical relationship between amperage and voltage.
Think of it as the electronic congestion and pressure of the flow.
Now for an easy to understand analogy, we will compare electrical flow to a man walking.

Voltage is a number that describes how fast the man is walking.
Amperage is a number that describes how much this walking man weighs.
Wattage is a number that describes the speed and weight of the walking man.


----------



## DaveLT

This thread is being featured! Send in your nominations for the most badass air cooled rig.
This is mine.

Shortly after that review I put a AFB1212SH at the back


----------



## Luke Cool

Intel i7 2600K , 16GB of Corsair vengeance, Evea 560 TI, 250GB SSD, 1TB WD Black, Titan cooler w/1.3 amp Delta, MSI Z68MA-ED55B3 MainBd.


----------



## TheGRig

Sorry if im a bit late to the party, but you forgot one more recommended fan, the Scythe Ultra Kaze 3000


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGRig*
> 
> Sorry if im a bit late to the party, but you forgot one more recommended fan, the Scythe Ultra Kaze 3000


I'm not so sure. Sleeve bearings don't get a place with me nor does the blown up specs


----------



## HandsomeChow

Wait a minute luke, i thought that wasted voltage is only applied to linear regulators.
If there is a switch mode regulator like a buck or a boost, things would surely be different


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Wait a minute luke, i thought that wasted voltage is only applied to linear regulators.
> If there is a switch mode regulator like a buck or a boost, things would surely be different


Linear regulators basically drop off the voltage you don't need.
Switch mode have loss too but it's switching losses or mosfet losses or also known as conduction losses which are minimal.


----------



## sav4

Hey Dave I'm after your opinion and others on cooling for a cm storm scout 2 .im thinking of replacing the stock fans with jetfo 120 and am wondering what config and how many would be optimal ? Do the perform well on voltage control via say a lamptron fc6 as I don't have enough headers .
My system is 4770k cpu 412slim cooler stock fans asrock ext 6 m/b and asus dc2 cooler gtx780ti .
I would really like to lower the gpu temps
Thanks in advance for any advice .


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Hey Dave I'm after your opinion and others on cooling for a cm storm scout 2 .im thinking of replacing the stock fans with jetfo 120 and am wondering what config and how many would be optimal ? Do the perform well on voltage control via say a lamptron fc6 as I don't have enough headers .
> My system is 4770k cpu 412slim cooler stock fans asrock ext 6 m/b and asus dc2 cooler gtx780ti .
> I would really like to lower the gpu temps
> Thanks in advance for any advice .


Since your case doesn't seem to be small the best upgrade is a new bigger heatsink like a Deepcool Gamer Storm (Also rebadged by logisys)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835999015
No amount of airflow will make up for a hot haswell and a lack of surface area with a rubbish fan on it.


----------



## sav4

Hey Dave thanks for the quick reply my cpu temps are good but trying to lower gpu temps .
What fan setup do u recommend ?
I was thinking 2 frt intakes 2 side intakes 1 rear exh 1 rear top exh what do u think ?


----------



## tompsonn

What do you think of these http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=12957

vs the Silverstone FF123?

Or is it the same material...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tompsonn*
> 
> What do you think of these http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=12957
> 
> vs the Silverstone FF123?
> 
> Or is it the same material...


Effectively? Yes. I think the FF123 is more or less the same.


----------



## tompsonn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Effectively? Yes. I think the FF123 is more or less the same.


Good coz they're cheaper


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Linear regulators basically drop off the voltage you don't need.
> Switch mode have loss too but it's switching losses or mosfet losses or also known as conduction losses which are minimal.


Anything that interferes with the flow of electricity, creates heat. All a CPU is, is a switching network, and look at all the heat it creates.
'


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Anything that interferes with the flow of electricity, creates heat. All a CPU is, is a switching network, and look at all the heat it creates.


Please explain. You're suggesting that anything that interferes with flow of electricity generate a butt ton of heat

Just like my EE mate in the UK says, he doesn't understand a word of what you have been saying


----------



## tompsonn

What's the cause of heat in a electrical device? Electrical resistance...

One could then say that anything causing higher resistance thus "interferes", though its really not the right word.


----------



## DaveLT

Like I said switching losses and conduction losses are the reason why VRMs are not 100% efficient. Or PSUs.
Not that it "interferes with the flow of electricity" That's like saying water valves create leaks because it interferes with the flow of water


----------



## tompsonn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Like I said switching losses and conduction losses are the reason why VRMs are not 100% efficient. Or PSUs.
> Not that it "interferes with the flow of electricity" That's like saying water valves create leaks because it interferes with the flow of water


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Please explain. You're suggesting that anything that interferes with flow of electricity generate a butt ton of heat
> 
> Just like my EE mate in the UK says, he doesn't understand a word of what you have been saying


in·ter·fere
verb
Prevent (a process or activity) from continuing or being carried out properly.
Sounds like it fits pretty well to me.

Resistance to flow is not the only thing that can cause heat. "Interferes with" is better because it covers a broader range of actions.
With anything that *prevents from continuing, interferes with, restricts, resist, slows down, obstructs, stops, or diverts* an electrical flow will produce heat as a by-product.
Now you can go down the list and criticize of each one. I'm OK with that.
If electricity is not moving there is no flow, so no heat; but any action that causes change to the flow, will generate heat.

I did not suggest that anything that interferes with flow of electricity generates a *butt ton* of heat.

A Intel i7 2600K has 995 million transistors.
The speed (3.4GHz), Lithography (32 nm), and operating voltage.
Beyond this, there is one additional thing that plays a part in the amount of heat that is generated; work request.
The transistors are so small, they are only reliably useable as switches.
One transistor this small puts out very little heat, but multiply that heat times 995 million transistors.
As you can see, the butt-ton of heat, in this case, is generated due to the massive quantity.

You may think a CPU has many electronic parts that are not switches:
The execution engines, the caches, the system-bus interface and the firmware are all within the transistor Architecture of the CPU. Each of these banks of transistors has an assigned job.
Memory is also millions of transistors used as switches.

This is all "Heat transfer science".


----------



## DaveLT

Whatever you're saying seems to have no relevance to what I'm saying, that's all. I don't get a clue what you're on about


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Whatever you're saying seems to have no relevance to what I'm saying, that's all. I don't get a clue what you're on about


Then lets go back to the start.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> Wait a minute luke, i thought that wasted voltage is only applied to linear regulators.
> If there is a switch mode regulator like a buck or a boost, things would surely be different


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Linear regulators basically drop off the voltage you don't need.
> Switch mode have loss too but it's switching losses or mosfet losses or also known as conduction losses which are minimal.


*conduction losses* are cause by the restrictions encountered in the act of flowing through something that *conducts* electricity.

*switching losses* are cause by the act starting and stopping the flow of electricity.

*wasted voltage* Is caused by heat and control losses.

Linear Regulators: Theory of Operation and Compensation

A Linear Regulators maintain a DC voltage to a set level. They are reasonably efficient because they are transistor based.
All Regulators, PWM and voltage controls have some loss. Transistor based devices losses are almost unnoticeable.

He was talking about a circuit I showed that had 15 VDC input and 12 VDC output.
inVain, in post 811 talked about voltage losses.
The difference there was not due to losses. The circuit was overbuilt.
It is made to take up to 15 VDC. My PC PS puts out 12.35 volts.
If it were labeled 12 to 15 VDC, it would have been less confusing.

Now that I took a look at all of this, I see why we are having problems. Its my fault.
In post 831, I was not disagreeing with you, I was adding to what you said.
I hope this clears things up.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Then lets go back to the start.
> 
> *conduction losses* are cause by the restrictions encountered in the act of flowing through something that *conducts* electricity.
> 
> *switching losses* are cause by the act starting and stopping the flow of electricity.
> 
> *wasted voltage* Is caused by heat and control losses.
> 
> Linear Regulators: Theory of Operation and Compensation
> 
> A Linear Regulators maintain a DC voltage to a set level. They are reasonably efficient because they are transistor based.
> All Regulators, PWM and voltage controls have some loss. Transistor based devices losses are almost unnoticeable.
> 
> He was talking about a circuit I showed that had 15 VDC input and 12 VDC output.
> inVain, in post 811 talked about voltage losses.
> The difference there was not due to losses. The circuit was overbuilt.
> It is made to take up to 15 VDC. My PC PS puts out 12.35 volts.
> If it were labeled 12 to 15 VDC, it would have been less confusing.
> 
> Now that I took a look at all of this, I see why we are having problems. Its my fault.
> In post 831, I was not disagreeing with you, I was adding to what you said.
> I hope this clears things up.


I'm not here to hear you use the wrong terms that I don't understand, I'm here to guide people with air cooling. I'm that serious


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'm not here to hear you use the wrong terms that I don't understand, I'm here to guide people with air cooling. I'm that serious


Well, I guess it didn't clear things up
I visit the dictionary often. I'm that serious!!
You won your relevance point, my bad. I could have been more clear there.
But if you think that "switching losses or mosfet losses or also known as conduction losses" are all the same thing, I see why terms confuse you.
I did look them up in the dictionary just to double check.

What wrong terms do you think I use??


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> This thread is being featured! Send in your nominations for the most badass air cooled rig.


uh oh....
I need to tell the world that I'm existed,
reserving a place for the nominations with a sneak peek inside my rig











yeah! the size's right
now there's a gettho way to hold the fan









thats so much for the reservation,
need to suck some dust out of it.

but first I need to catch up with the last few pages, and probably translating a few binaries on this thread back to our Planet Earth's language


----------



## sav4

What fan setup do you guys recommend ?
I was thinking 2 frt intakes 2 side intakes 1 rear exh 1 rear top exh what do u think ?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> uh oh....
> I need to tell the world that I'm existed,
> reserving a place for the nominations with a sneak peek inside my rig


Super charged, looks COOL !!!
How much help does that second fan add to that CPU cooler?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> What fan setup do you guys recommend ?
> I was thinking 2 frt intakes 2 side intakes 1 rear exh 1 rear top exh what do u think ?


We need more info
Are you starting from scratch?
How serious are you about performance?


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Super charged, looks COOL !!!
> How much help does that second fan add to that CPU cooler?


actually, it's a single fan config.
it's a shroud on the front, the actual fan is the one with metal frame and it's the Sanyo 9SG.
the shroud was placed on the wrong side because of the noise issues.
having the shroud on the intake has allowed me to run the fan @1200rpm, without it I couldn't stand the noise.

a better explanation about these shroud can be read, here:
inlet ring

I couldn't find a similar product available here where I live,
but since the shroud works, I used it anyway









a push-pull with this fan would be a complete waste of energy, money and noise.
did a previous test with similar fans, 2-3 drop in temps were just not enough to justify spending extra $20 for another 9SG (I bought them used, but it come in great shape)









probably will swap the exhaust fan on the rear with another 9SG,
since I can hear the bearing's quite noisy and it just happen I have another 9SG in my closet


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I glanced at this circuit earlier, and then got it wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I concentrated on what was said in post 807, rather than just looking at this schematic.
> I just took the time to look at and research this schematic, I now wish to correct my error.


sorry for the mess I caused earlier









I believed what you called the resistor network is a voltage divider circuit, something in the audio world called the "steeped attenuator"?
like most other folks, I did that as my very first approach to my custom build fan controller which didn't turn out so well in the end









yes, the 317 was very uncommon to be found on a PC, whether it's a fan controller or even on a motherboard.
it's happen after a friend toasted his case bundled fan controller.
never saw what his actually, but after google something similar with his descriptions I found it was very poor designed.
no heatsink on the regulator might what eventually killed the poor unit, and I remember his fan would spin faster if he connect it directly to the psu.
so, heck. I think I can do better than that.

from my experience, using those readily available components as ICs was very good for safety reason (your components, *not yourself!* always wear a safety goggles and fuse your mains electrical connections).
by adding two protector diodes I never broke any fan, the 317 itself, nor the PSU I used during the prototyping (cheap and crappy psu to minimize the risks, though).
another story goes with the diodes, plenties were explode due to my own recklessness connecting the input to the output, thus shorting 12v to ground









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'm not here to hear you use the wrong terms that I don't understand, I'm here to guide people with air cooling. I'm that serious


gotta admit that I feel responsible for causing the mess.
I'm sorry for hijacking the few last pages of your thread, Dave
(probably some on the next too, oopppsss














)

I like your opinions about those crappy fans and how you guide other for better air cooling solutions.

at some other points, I must agree with Luke when it concerning loads to the motherboard.
I think it's better for a motherboard to handle as little loads as it can for better stability.

you and me know things that might be everybody not knew.
we push our system to their max because of these knowledges, but I'm afraid some of the folks were barely a new comer when it come to PC building.
so we can't expect them to really know what they're doing and what possibly go wrong.

industrial grades fans were never meant to be used inside a PC in the first place.
but we know their specs were reliable and far better performance than the ordinary PC fans, thus will give us greater advantages in performance and stability.
we learned how to use them in our PC. something that probably someone had omitted and might lead to disasters.

please consider Luke as a public health minister for these kinds of folks (no offense folks







) with his critics, and "please don't do this at home", or any "parental advisories" (no offense Luke)
just try to cheers things up


----------



## sav4

It is a pre exsisting system in a storm scout 2 .
System is a couple posts above looking for a good balance using jetflo fans


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> It is a pre exsisting system in a storm scout 2 .
> System is a couple posts above looking for a good balance using jetflo fans


What GPU are you using? Ref or Aftmarket cooler?


----------



## sav4

Aftermarket cooler 780ti


----------



## DaveLT

2 intake front 1 exhaust side 1 intake top rearwards


----------



## sav4

Ok so 4 fans total ? Is there reasoning behind no rear exh and a top intake won't that mix with the CPUs heat and add to the gpu temps.
Sorry for the questions new to the custom build scene and ocing


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Ok so 4 fans total ? Is there reasoning behind no rear exh and a top intake won't that mix with the CPUs heat and add to the gpu temps.
> Sorry for the questions new to the custom build scene and ocing


I forgot about rear exhaust, sorry.


----------



## vlaint

cant seem to choose between afb1212L and afb1212sh. Is it ok to plug the afb1212sh to the cpu pwm supposing that it is 1amp? And also thinking of getting a 38mm what yould you suggest? Ill be getting at aliexpress. thanks


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> cant seem to choose between afb1212L and afb1212sh. Is it ok to plug the afb1212sh to the cpu pwm supposing that it is 1amp? And also thinking of getting a 38mm what yould you suggest? Ill be getting at aliexpress. thanks


Sort of.
Does AFB1212M not do fine? Actually AFB1212L is okay if you don't need moar

AFB1212ME or HE


----------



## Majorhi

I'd upload a pic of my rig but you are using it as the carousel photo! Thanks for that! But I'll see if I can find another pic for ya guys.





Blue Beetle

Black & Blue


----------



## mus1mus

Just chiming in guys..

Congrats for the feature Dave.

I was also looking at making my own variable Voltage regulator to control my fans. Yes, 317s.

One thing to note though, most of them are rated at 1.5 A. In other words, weak for controlling more than 1 high speed fan. Delta's in reference.

They can also be bulky to make. I can design a PCB using software and etch them using very cost effective methods (magazine pages printed with laser printer for the traces) but boy, I somehow feel buying a 6 channel fan controller would be cheaper, faster and would be of a nicer build.

As for the heat electronic components produce, remember every component has internal resistances (ideally, low at the output side, or lower than next component it feeds. That is important to maximise power transfer to the next component.). Thus will consume power when they're on. And in effect will generate heat.

Luke, I believe you are right on saying anything that impedes current generates heat. But I won't agree when you said the greater the resistance, the greater the heat. Like I said, anything that consumes power , generates heat.

P=VI=I^2R=V^2/R. ^2 is squared.

With those formulas,you can see why the more resistance will mean less power. But what about I^2R? So you'd say.

Remember, V=IR, I=V/R, R=VI. And power consumed is defined by Voltage across a component multiplied by the Current flowing through it. More resistance, less current. Thus less Power and less heat produced.

Switching transistors produce heat in the same principle. Their internal resistance or characteristic impedance , multiplied by the square of the Current flowing through them equals power absorbed.

But wait, switching power supplies are meant to produce power. Not consume them. Yes, they are made to. But because of that consumed power by the MOSFETs, we have derived to the efficiency ratings. The more power the components consume, the lesser are they efficient for their purpose.

So you might wonder why power lines are producing less heat when the Current flowing through them are huge. That is because their internal resistances are still smaller to their supplied components. And their size alone is more than enough to dissipate the heat they produce. Unless you overload them..

Anyway, I hope I got these cleared as these are all my words. Not from any dictionary. And yes, pardon the lack of smileys and all. I'm on mobile. And please, don't consider these as contradictions to your statements. Because these are facts.

I would of nominate my air coed rig has it not been transformed to water. My CM Storm Scout 2 was jam packed with fans when I was using a silver arrow. But boy, that rig was ugly.. lol


----------



## GTX670

I actually created a pressure cage in my Zalman Z11 Plus

In fact, I share the SSD/HDD zone to provide a pressure by the two side 80mm fans with the two front fans


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majorhi*
> 
> I'd upload a pic of my rig but you are using it as the carousel photo! Thanks for that! But I'll see if I can find another pic for ya guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue Beetle
> 
> Black & Blue


After looking around the MOTM nominations your rig was the only balling air cooled rig ... if any air cooled rigs that I could find









couldn't wait for invain so i decided to use yours for twitter and the carusel
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Just chiming in guys..
> 
> Congrats for the feature Dave.
> 
> I was also looking at making my own variable Voltage regulator to control my fans. Yes, 317s.
> 
> One thing to note though, most of them are rated at 1.5 A. In other words, weak for controlling more than 1 high speed fan. Delta's in reference.
> 
> They can also be bulky to make. I can design a PCB using software and etch them using very cost effective methods (magazine pages printed with laser printer for the traces) but boy, I somehow feel buying a 6 channel fan controller would be cheaper, faster and would be of a nicer build.


Thanks a lot!

You need a pretty big heatsink (In terms of to 220 heatsinks) for a 317 if you're controlling a fan. Not a good idea, better off using a 555 to generate PWM or use a 555 attached to an output mosfet for the fan. Much more efficient and if you want clean voltage you can always put a honking big cap on it, no worries.
Do remember to set start voltage as 5V. 555s set as "voltage control" in normal configuration will go from about 0 (or so) to source voltage but I cannot remember that well.
What I did was buy an LM2596 regulator board and put a resistor across two legs of the cap to set minimum voltage as 5v. Easy!
I also bought a "PWM controller" for my pump with minimum voltage set as 8v


----------



## inVain

I used to be badass, but now I'm sober














already disbanded those rig setup.
but the fans are still in use, I just can't post my current setup as still need it to do something


----------



## Vario

Is there a downside to running a 4pin PWM fan on a 3 pin voltage regulated fan control header? Can I ruin a 4 pin fan by doing this?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Is there a downside to running a 4pin PWM fan on a 3 pin voltage regulated fan control header? Can I ruin a 4 pin fan by doing this?


Not at all. If it does happen, which it doesn't for me. Been running my front PWM fans for 1 year on the mobo's voltage control plug
If it does happen it's a bad fan design, that's all.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Not at all. If it does happen, which it doesn't for me. Been running my front PWM fans for 1 year on the mobo's voltage control plug
> If it does happen it's a bad fan design, that's all.


Great thanks for the reply!


----------



## Chargeit

I don't know man. I did a fair amount of testing with fan placement when I first got back into building my systems. I found that anything too crazy, like using your side fan for exhaust resulted in worse cooling performance. At best you could improve the cooling of one part of your system, at the expense of other parts. At worst, you'd destroy your case cooling potential.

I did find that when I was still using air cooling for my main rig, using the front most top fan as a intake made for better overall CPU temps.

I usually tell people front to back, bottom to top and you're good to go.









Thanks for the post.

*Bottom intakes are great for GPU temps, but I avoid them because it turns your computer into a vacuum cleaner. Bottom fans also tend to be loud when I tested them. I'm not sure how you ended up with quieter fans when placed on the bottom.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> I don't know man. I did a fair amount of testing with fan placement when I first got back into building my systems. I found that anything too crazy, like using your side fan for exhaust resulted in worse cooling performance. At best you could improve the cooling of one part of your system, at the expense of other parts. At worst, you'd destroy your case cooling potential.
> 
> I did find that when I was still using air cooling for my main rig, using the front most top fan as a intake made for better overall CPU temps.
> 
> I usually tell people front to back, bottom to top and you're good to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the post.
> 
> **Bottom intakes are great for GPU temps, but I avoid them because it turns your computer into a vacuum cleaner. Bottom fans also tend to be loud when I tested them. I'm not sure how you ended up with quieter fans when placed on the bottom*.


You need enough separation from the floor to the fan. The whooshing is caused by the air rushing or being pulled from small entrances that are perpendicular to the flow direction of the fan.

Grab a fan, power it ON, lift it up spinning, (silent?) - hold it close to a flat surface about 10mm intaking from the said surface. Floor or table. Hear that?


----------



## Alasmodified

i WONT HAVE ANY AIR FLOW ON MY MOTHERBOARD AREA IS THIS BAD FOR THE CHIPSET AND VRM WHICH HAVE PASSIVE HEAT SINKS EVGA Z87 CLASSIFIED?


----------



## Chargeit

That must of been it. I had the system placed directly on my desk. I'm still not a fan of bottom fans (see what I did there). They are a dust nightmare, though good for cooling.

A better spot for that fan is on the inside part of the hdd bay. It will help distribute the well filtered front intake air, acting like a extension for more direct cooling. Zip tie that sucker if you have to.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> That must of been it. I had the system placed directly on my desk. I'm still not a fan of bottom fans (see what I did there). They are a dust nightmare, though good for cooling.
> 
> A better spot for that fan is on the inside part of the hdd bay. It will help distribute the well filtered front intake air, acting like a extension for more direct cooling. Zip tie that sucker if you have to.


Reason I recommend bottom fan is that the front fan has a lot of restriction, mesh, filter and HDD cage + HDD.
Airflow? More like nein.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> After looking around the MOTM nominations your rig was the only balling air cooled rig ... if any air cooled rigs that I could find


I think there ought to be an air cooling rig of the month.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> That must of been it. I had the system placed directly on my desk. I'm still not a fan of bottom fans (see what I did there). They are a dust nightmare, though good for cooling.
> 
> A better spot for that fan is on the inside part of the hdd bay. It will help distribute the well filtered front intake air, acting like a extension for more direct cooling. Zip tie that sucker if you have to.


Try to put the fan where there's no HDDs, then remove any restrictions (the holders for the HDDs especially). That way you have clean air flow to the computer.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Just chiming in guys..
> Luke, I believe you are right on saying anything that impedes current generates heat. But I won't agree when you said the greater the resistance, the greater the heat. Like I said, anything that consumes power , generates heat.
> 
> P=VI=I^2R=V^2/R. ^2 is squared.
> 
> With those formulas,you can see why the more resistance will mean less power. But what about I^2R? So you'd say.
> Remember, V=IR, I=V/R, R=VI. And power consumed is defined by Voltage across a component multiplied by the Current flowing through it. More resistance, less current. Thus less Power and less heat produced.
> Switching transistors produce heat in the same principle. Their internal resistance or characteristic impedance , multiplied by the square of the Current flowing through them equals power absorbed.
> But wait, switching power supplies are meant to produce power. Not consume them. Yes, they are made to. But because of that consumed power by the MOSFETs, we have derived to the efficiency ratings. The more power the components consume, the lesser are they efficient for their purpose.
> So you might wonder why power lines are producing less heat when the Current flowing through them are huge. That is because their internal resistances are still smaller to their supplied components. And their size alone is more than enough to dissipate the heat they produce. Unless you overload them..Anyway, I hope I got these cleared as these are all my words. Not from any dictionary. And yes, pardon the lack of smileys and all. I'm on mobile. And please, don't consider these as contradictions to your statements. Because these are facts.
> I would of nominate my air coed rig has it not been transformed to water. My CM Storm Scout 2 was jam packed with fans when I was using a silver arrow. But boy, that rig was ugly.. lol


It looks by your equation that the voltage and current are big contributors toward the heat.
Most of the devices in our computers run at the same voltage, however, the currents are not the same.
What you say is logical, you are the current winner.









I have already revised that statement. There are more things than just voltage, current and resistance that effect heat, It is very difficult to make a 100% correct statement of this type. Thank you for your insight.
'


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> I think there ought to be an air cooling rig of the month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try to put the fan where there's no HDDs, then remove any restrictions (the holders for the HDDs especially). That way you have clean air flow to the computer.


I already started the thread but there has only been 1 nomination
But no moar HDD mounting
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> It looks by your equation that the voltage and current are big contributors toward the heat. Most of the devices in our computers runs at the same voltage, however, the currents are not the same. What you say is logical, you are the current winner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have already revised that statement. There are more things than voltage, current and resistance that effect heat, It is very difficult to make a 100% correct statement of this type. Thank you for your insight.


Lower resistance = higher current!
Only V R and I affect heat apart from thermal conductivity and thermal resistance. Simple as that.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> It looks by your equation that the voltage and current are big contributors toward the heat. Most of the devices in our computers runs at the same voltage, however, the currents are not the same. What you say is logical, you are the current winner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have already revised that statement. There are more things than voltage, current and resistance that effect heat, It is very difficult to make a 100% correct statement of this type. Thank you for your insight.


Indeed mate.

What I gave are just the basics. Ohm's law as what they're called. The Law governs over every DC circuit. Up to certain limitation of complexity.

When we induce frequency into the mix though, the platform changes but Ohm's law can still be applied to Digital circuits where, frequency is just a matter of ON-OFF states.

Anyway, that is straying out of the thread already.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Lower resistance = higher current!
> Only V R and I affect heat apart from thermal conductivity and thermal resistance. Simple as that.


TRUE this!

I'll just add in Duty Cycle as an occurrence in PWM switching circuitry.











The longer a component stays at ON state, the more heat it'll produce. Even when holding Voltage, *Current* (needs citation) and Resistance constant.


----------



## inVain

those....
are what I was trying to say with these









but , whatever...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> another way to control the voltage is by applying PWM on the supply line to the fans (which have enough currents to drive fan(s)).
> 50% duty cycle means halve of the voltage, 25% means a quarter, and so on.
> still efficient from the power usage, but the fans might be suffer from a fast "on/off" phasing switch.
> noise or unused rpm feedback are the best side effect we can expect.
> the worst?


congrats for the truce, it's the nicest thing to see today


----------



## mus1mus

Really design dependent.

If you want to control Voltage at the output or the current that you supply to the load.

Duty Cycle can be used to produce your desired output. Whether it's Voltage or Current depending on your needs.

In fan controllers for example, some fans cannot spin at half of their rated Voltage requirement. Thus force you supply them with constant Voltage. But controlling the the duration of a Pulse to slow them down lower than half of their rated speed. That should follow that you are controlling the Current, isn't it?









Some applications also require variance of the Voltages. Which can also be done by varying the duration of each pulse to produce certain levels of Voltages. This is fairly common in Digital to Analog conversion via PWM.

With those said though, I should tell you guys, all those are just hunches from me. You can correct those anytime as although I am an EE, and those topics were discussed in school, I'm no way an expert in my field.


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Sort of.
> Does AFB1212M not do fine? Actually AFB1212L is okay if you don't need moar
> 
> AFB1212ME or HE


guess ill go with afb1212he then cant seem to find afb1212me for cheap lol. I will be puting them on a fan controller. Will a 10w/header be enough or should i just get 15 or 30w mayber. Thinking of nzxt sentry 2,mesh,sentry3.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> guess ill go with afb1212he then cant seem to find afb1212me for cheap lol. I will be puting them on a fan controller. Will a 10w/header be enough or should i just get 15 or 30w mayber. Thinking of nzxt sentry 2,mesh,sentry3.


I was looking at the same.








http://www.nzxt.com/product/detail/80-sentry-mesh-fan-control


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Really design dependent.
> 
> If you want to control Voltage at the output or the current that you supply to the load.
> 
> Duty Cycle can be used to produce your desired output. Whether it's Voltage or Current depending on your needs.
> 
> In fan controllers for example, some fans cannot spin at half of their rated Voltage requirement. Thus force you supply them with constant Voltage. But controlling the the duration of a Pulse to slow them down lower than half of their rated speed. That should follow that you are controlling the Current, isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some applications also require variance of the Voltages. Which can also be done by varying the duration of each pulse to produce certain levels of Voltages. This is fairly common in Digital to Analog conversion via PWM.
> 
> With those said though, I should tell you guys, all those are just hunches from me. You can correct those anytime as although I am an EE, and those topics were discussed in school, I'm no way an expert in my field.


You aren't controlling current if you're controlling voltage, true current control is an constant current limit








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> guess ill go with afb1212he then cant seem to find afb1212me for cheap lol. I will be puting them on a fan controller. Will a 10w/header be enough or should i just get 15 or 30w mayber. Thinking of nzxt sentry 2,mesh,sentry3.


Their fan controllers are rubbish. Seriously. Check out my review of the sentry 3


----------



## vlaint

Aw nzxt fan controllers are the only ones abundant here.Theres a bitfenix recon,hydra pro and currently theres one selling a used kaze master km01 bk. What are some good fan controllers? Fan controllers here are limited.


----------



## mus1mus

@DaveLT, been looking at that 555 timer plus MOSFET PWM controller. Seems pretty doable.

Thank you.

I'll grab a pinch board and some components to test one of the circuits I have found.

Will let you know mate! Your thread's a gem!


----------



## Red1776

Great guide Dave









The only issue, and this may be personal experience is that I have yielded better results with a negative flow setup. This maybe because I have non typical setups with multiple (usually 4 GPU's) and multi PSU's etc. I test /bench on air and move to water but while on air. But running more air through the system has worked better for me and my builds. including the quad build I am building at the moment with a GPU temp drop of 6c.

anyway great guide.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> I was looking at the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nzxt.com/product/detail/80-sentry-mesh-fan-control


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> You aren't controlling current if you're controlling voltage, true current control is an constant current limit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their fan controllers are rubbish. Seriously. Check out my review of the sentry 3


All of them are bad? I would never chance the shoddy quality of the LCD models, but I cant really complain about the slider models, specifically the Sentry Mix 2. It did everything I asked it to. I will say this, the connectors are pretty cheap and you need to take care when plugging fans in, but other than that it seemed to do its job pretty well.

Regardless, I hardly even use it anymore, I ended up with a pwm splitter and use that with the 4 AFB1212VHs on my radiator. My other AFB1212Ms are voltage controlled through the mobo.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> All of them are bad? I would never chance the shoddy quality of the LCD models, but I cant really complain about the slider models, specifically the Sentry Mix 2. It did everything I asked it to. I will say this, the connectors are pretty cheap and you need to take care when plugging fans in, but other than that it seemed to do its job pretty well.
> 
> Regardless, I hardly even use it anymore, I ended up with a pwm splitter and use that with the 4 AFB1212VHs on my radiator. My other AFB1212Ms are voltage controlled through the mobo.


The basic sentry mesh works fine for me but it seems a bit noisy, theres a hum to all the fans when I have it running.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Indeed mate.
> 
> What I gave are just the basics. Ohm's law as what they're called. The Law governs over every DC circuit. Up to certain limitation of complexity.
> 
> When we induce frequency into the mix though, the platform changes but Ohm's law can still be applied to Digital circuits where, frequency is just a matter of ON-OFF states.
> !
> I'll just add in Duty Cycle as an occurrence in PWM switching circuitry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The longer a component stays at ON state, the more heat it'll produce. Even when holding Voltage, *Current* (needs citation) and Resistance constant.


I see a problem.
Your statement " The longer a component stays at ON state, the more heat it'll produce. Even when holding Voltage, *Current* (needs citation) and Resistance constant".
When in a hold state, there is no flow; this is infinite resistance like an open circuit. There is no heat.
In the ON state, it's like current and voltage flowing through a wire unobstructed. There is no heat.
If the semi conductor is restricting flow (used with a variable trigger and output), only then will the resistance incurred results in heat.
But when used as a switch (an on or off state only), the heat in an ICs, transistors and rectifiers is a result of switching; not an unobstructed flow.

Your statement in post 854 "More resistance, less current. Thus less Power and less heat produced."
Then the inverse must also be true. * less resistance. more current. Thus more Power and more heat produced.
Apply that statement to current going through a wire that is rated to carry it. The wire never gets hot.

When electrons move against the opposition of resistance, "friction" is generated. Just like mechanical friction, the friction produced by electrons flowing against a resistance manifests itself in the form of heat. Opposition to the flow of current, whither it is coils in a motor choke rheostat or transformer, a capacitor, a resistor, a light bulb, a switch, an IC transistor of rectifier, they all make some change to electrical flow. As they make this change, it causes friction. The Heat that is generated seems to be bases more on the efficiency and scale of circuit and its devices, and the scale of the electrical flow.

Ohm's law does not address heat generation.
I=V/R, "where I is the current through the conductor in units of amperes, V is the potential difference measured across the conductor in units of volts, and R is the resistance of the conductor in units of ohms. More specifically, Ohm's law states that the R in this relation is constant, independent of the current". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law

Your description of the relationship between current, resistance, and heat seems to have some short comings.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> Aw nzxt fan controllers are the only ones abundant here.Theres a bitfenix recon,hydra pro and currently theres one selling a used kaze master km01 bk. What are some good fan controllers? Fan controllers here are limited.


Same situation here. I just buy from overseas.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> All of them are bad? I would never chance the shoddy quality of the LCD models, but I cant really complain about the slider models, specifically the Sentry Mix 2. It did everything I asked it to. I will say this, the connectors are pretty cheap and you need to take care when plugging fans in, but other than that it seemed to do its job pretty well.
> 
> Regardless, I hardly even use it anymore, I ended up with a pwm splitter and use that with the 4 AFB1212VHs on my radiator. My other AFB1212Ms are voltage controlled through the mobo.


All of them are not bad but mediocre. The LCD ones are just bad. The mediocre ones are the sliders, can get better deals from lamptron or even logisys...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Great guide Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only issue, and this may be personal experience is that I have yielded better results with a negative flow setup. This maybe because I have non typical setups with multiple (usually 4 GPU's) and multi PSU's etc. I test /bench on air and move to water but while on air. But running more air through the system has worked better for me and my builds. including the quad build I am building at the moment with a GPU temp drop of 6c.
> anyway great guide.


That's because you haven't got enough exhaust due to just having a tiny amount of space between GPUs with some of the heat escaping from the GPUs also







maybe you can ghetto rig a 80mm fan at the I/O panels of your GPUs
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> The basic sentry mesh works fine for me but it seems a bit noisy, theres a hum to all the fans when I have it running.


That's coil whine ._. Or really bad design.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> That's because you haven't got enough exhaust due to just having a tiny amount of space between GPUs with some of the heat escaping from the GPUs also
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maybe you can ghetto rig a 80mm fan at the I/O panels of your GPUs


 or...just keep using the superiority of negative airflow like I have been, and temps stay in check....


----------



## Thready

I just saw this on the home page. Very informative. I want to add that I have a non OCed PC in the bottom level of my house where it's very cool. I have a tower heatsink, 3 intake fans, and 2 exhaust fans. I have a tri fan GPU as well. Needless to say, I don't need air cooling that much. But, I do all of this because I hate dust. I believe dust is an unholy thing sent to us by the dark lords themselves. So I have dust filters on all of my intake fans and I keep positive air pressure in my case all the time. I have many open vents in my case for air to push out from. My 2 side intake fans are 120mm Antec Tri cool fans set to low speed mode. My front intake fan is a 140mm cooler master fan connected to my motherboard. I use low power operation in my bios for all of the fan controls. I have very quiet computing, very little dust, and my temperatures at usually in the upper 30s on idle.

edit: Forgot to add, my top fan is a 200mm Cooler Master fan connected to my motherboard and my rear fan is a 120mm Cooler Master fan connected to my motherboard. I set all of them on low speed and since my Antec side fans run higher than my fans on the motherboard, I get more air coming into the case.


----------



## Vario

Is there a product that lets you run many 3 pin fans off of a PWM header? Would be cool if I could run all my H1011s off of a single header (CPU) and not need a fan controller.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Is there a product that lets you run many 3 pin fans off of a PWM header? Would be cool if I could run all my H1011s off of a single header (CPU) and not need a fan controller.


Phanteks PWM hub, has just been launched.
Even phanteks is sure of putting 30W on the mobo pwm header


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Phanteks PWM hub, has just been launched.
> Even phanteks is sure of putting 30W on the mobo pwm header


I am considering using Lazzer408's design actually
http://www.overclock.net/t/1505404/guide-convert-3-pin-fan-to-pwm-56k-warning-courtesy-of-lazzer408

I wonder if the H1011's will make extra noise in PWM?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> I am considering using Lazzer408's design actually
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1505404/guide-convert-3-pin-fan-to-pwm-56k-warning-courtesy-of-lazzer408
> 
> I wonder if the H1011's will make extra noise in PWM?


PWM helps the fan to run quieter, that's one of its advantages.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> PWM helps the fan to run quieter, that's one of its advantages.


I've heard that some fans will "knock" when you run them in PWM. Not sure if true.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> I've heard that some fans will "knock" when you run them in PWM. Not sure if true.


I've heard that too, but I've never seen it.
No reputable fan manufacturer wants to have there name attached to a fan that has terrible reviews.
Just stick with trusted brands.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Is there a product that lets you run many 3 pin fans off of a PWM header? Would be cool if I could run all my H1011s off of a single header (CPU) and not need a fan controller.
> 
> 
> 
> Phanteks PWM hub, has just been launched.
> Even phanteks is sure of putting 30W on the mobo pwm header
Click to expand...

Phanteks PWM signal controlled 3-pin fan hub with PSU power witl control up to 30w using PSU for power. Wouldn't want to try running 30w of fans without PSU power. Motherboard fan headers are usually are 1a / 12w load rating.


----------



## ldewitt

Best setup for my airflow?



EDIT: Thinking about 1 more fan hanging off my HDD cage facing my GPU...


----------



## Chargeit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Reason I recommend bottom fan is that the front fan has a lot of restriction, mesh, filter and HDD cage + HDD.
> Airflow? More like nein.


Well, having a fan at the back of the hdd bay has the larger benefit of having more direct airflow directed at you GPU and mobo. It will get that air from where it can.

The reason you want the direct airflow is because it better displaces the heat build up around the object it's hitting. That heat should then be sucked out one of the exhausts.

Let me make sure you know what I mean. This is a picture of fan placements I suggested for this guy with a Rosewill challenger. I'll add the spot I'm talking about...



When I was still using my Rosewill R5 as a main case, placing a fan or two in that location (which the case allows for) really helped with general case temps, even though the front fans are heavily filtered.


----------



## Chargeit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ldewitt*
> 
> Best setup for my airflow?
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Thinking about 1 more fan hanging off my HDD cage facing my GPU...


I'd remove that front most exhaust fan. Like the guide mentioned, having that as exhaust only serves to remove the fresh air taken in by the front fans.

This is a good video to see some airflow around a case. Make sure to watch the whole thing.


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> I'd remove that front most exhaust fan. Like the guide mentioned, having that as exhaust only serves to remove the fresh air taken in by the front fans.
> 
> This is a good video to see some airflow around a case. Make sure to watch the whole thing.


Remove it all together or flip it around to intake?


----------



## Chargeit

Try it without at first.

I was looking at it, and you'd just be sucking back in hot air you're removing.


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> Try it without at first.
> 
> I was looking at it, and you'd just be sucking back in hot air you're removing.


Good point


----------



## Chargeit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ldewitt*
> 
> Good point


Could you post a clean picture of your rig?

Also, are you using a side fan?

With the way you're cooling your GPU, you do have kind of a unique setup.


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> Could you post a clean picture of your rig?
> 
> Also, are you using a side fan?
> 
> With the way you're cooling your GPU, you do have kind of a unique setup.




Yes i have a 140mm Fan intake on my side panel:


Yeah i wanted to make it unlike any build I've seen.


----------



## Chargeit

Yea, I'm looking at it, and I'd remove that front exhaust, maybe even the one next to it.

What are your temps like?

This is what I'd try.



I don't think that side fan is doing you much good. It could work as a spot for some of that GPU heat to exit if the fan is removed, or, it could just allow your front fresh air to escape. I'd try it without a fan, and also try it blocked off with at least a filter or something.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Phanteks PWM signal controlled 3-pin fan hub with PSU power witl control up to 30w using PSU for power. Wouldn't want to try running 30w of fans without PSU power. Motherboard fan headers are usually are 1a / 12w load rating.


Once again they WARN not to use the PSU plug or you'll lose motherboard control








If you doubt whether I have it or not here it is

Not the first time I'm telling you as it is.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ldewitt*
> 
> Best setup for my airflow?
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Thinking about 1 more fan hanging off my HDD cage facing my GPU...


Uh, rear exhaust 1 top intake and 2 front intakes (replace the 200mm with your 2 other sp120s)
You GPU doesn't need much airflow anyway so my suggestion for you is to mount the 2 bottom fans as exhaust. You don't need a side panel fan.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> Well, having a fan at the back of the hdd bay has the larger benefit of having more direct airflow directed at you GPU and mobo. It will get that air from where it can.
> 
> The reason you want the direct airflow is because it better displaces the heat build up around the object it's hitting. That heat should then be sucked out one of the exhausts.
> 
> Let me make sure you know what I mean. This is a picture of fan placements I suggested for this guy with a Rosewill challenger. I'll add the spot I'm talking about...
> 
> 
> 
> When I was still using my Rosewill R5 as a main case, placing a fan or two in that location (which the case allows for) really helped with general case temps, even though the front fans are heavily filtered.


But, no. We just want the air to flow around not attempt to push air out of the way because if you CAN do it, it needs a LOT of airflow, I don't mean just a lot I'm talking about 120CFM from a 120mm fan
That's why I suggest side panel fans. Not everyone has enough space in the HDD bay to mount that and bottom fans.


----------



## Red1776

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:
Originally Posted by *DaveLT* 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> Aw nzxt fan controllers are the only ones abundant here.Theres a bitfenix recon,hydra pro and currently theres one selling a used kaze master km01 bk. What are some good fan controllers? Fan controllers here are limited.


Same situation here. I just buy from overseas.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> All of them are bad? I would never chance the shoddy quality of the LCD models, but I cant really complain about the slider models, specifically the Sentry Mix 2. It did everything I asked it to. I will say this, the connectors are pretty cheap and you need to take care when plugging fans in, but other than that it seemed to do its job pretty well.
> 
> Regardless, I hardly even use it anymore, I ended up with a pwm splitter and use that with the 4 AFB1212VHs on my radiator. My other AFB1212Ms are voltage controlled through the mobo.


All of them are not bad but mediocre. The LCD ones are just bad. The mediocre ones are the sliders, can get better deals from lamptron or even logisys...





> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Great guide Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only issue, and this may be personal experience is that I have yielded better results with a negative flow setup. This maybe because I have non typical setups with multiple (usually 4 GPU's) and multi PSU's etc. I test /bench on air and move to water but while on air. But running more air through the system has worked better for me and my builds. including the quad build I am building at the moment with a GPU temp drop of 6c.
> anyway great guide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you haven't got enough exhaust due to just having a tiny amount of space between GPUs with some of the heat escaping from the GPUs also
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maybe you can ghetto rig a 80mm fan at the I/O panels of your GPUs
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> The basic sentry mesh works fine for me but it seems a bit noisy, theres a hum to all the fans when I have it running.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's coil whine ._. Or really bad design.
Click to expand...

In all seriousness, even with my HTPC builds (such as my current A10 7850K, or build with a single GPU) I get better results with negative flow. I am willing to spend a bit more on canned air for the benefit.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ldewitt*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes i have a 140mm Fan intake on my side panel:
> 
> 
> Yeah i wanted to make it unlike any build I've seen.


Try flipping the top fans into intake fans? Best way to do things is to try it and see what it does to temperatures, its easier than guessing and you can measure the temperature change and see if it improves or not pretty easily.


----------



## Chargeit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> But, no. We just want the air to flow around not attempt to push air out of the way because if you CAN do it, it needs a LOT of airflow, I don't mean just a lot I'm talking about 120CFM from a 120mm fan
> That's why I suggest side panel fans. Not everyone has enough space in the HDD bay to mount that and bottom fans.


By attaching a fan to the hdd bay, like I posted, you're getting more direct airflow on your components. Direct airflow is the most effective. If you can't fit one, then there is no issue, don't use it. I wouldn't put in a bottom fan, they aren't needed and introduce a lot of dust.

I'm trying to be nice here, but, I think you need to reconsider your understanding of fan placement before writing a fancy article about it.

Good luck.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> By attaching a fan to the hdd bay, like I posted, you're getting more direct airflow on your components. Direct airflow is the most effective. If you can't fit one, then there is no issue, don't use it. I wouldn't put in a bottom fan, they aren't needed and introduce a lot of dust.
> 
> I'm trying to be nice here, but, I think you need to reconsider your understanding of fan placement before writing a fancy article about it.
> 
> Good luck.


I thought through long and hard to write this article. Are you sure you think I am some clueless wit who has no idea about fan placement? And fans? That's what you are implying, mate.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> In all seriousness, even with my HTPC builds (such as my current A10 7850K, or build with a single GPU) I get better results with negative flow. I am willing to spend a bit more on canned air for the benefit.


I disagree.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> By attaching a fan to the hdd bay, like I posted, you're getting more direct airflow on your components. Direct airflow is the most effective. If you can't fit one, then there is no issue, don't use it. I wouldn't put in a bottom fan, they aren't needed and introduce a lot of dust.
> 
> I'm trying to be nice here, but, I think you need to reconsider your understanding of fan placement before writing a fancy article about it.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought through long and hard to write this article. Are you sure you think I am some clueless wit who has no idea about fan placement? And fans? That's what you are implying, mate.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> In all seriousness, even with my HTPC builds (such as my current A10 7850K, or build with a single GPU) I get better results with negative flow. I am willing to spend a bit more on canned air for the benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree.
Click to expand...

Not sure what there is to disagree with. I get better results with negative flow setups than positive flow. You can disagree I suppose if you wish, but the temperature results bare this out.

So "I Disagree" is a rather odd response.

anyway, good luck with the guide.


----------



## RamboV2

Great guide and will definitely be usefull for my builds!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I get many questions like, what fan is best? Well. This is OCN so the very best should be a high-speed delta. But ... Nobody can withstand 66.5dB next to their ear ...


Well... You are totally wrong







i love the sound of loud fans!
I leave my gpu fans 100% at night, it helps me to sleep








I had a small san ace fan that was very fast. I had it as cpu fan at full speed and it did not bother me at all..... Only the people in other rooms


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Not sure what there is to disagree with. I get better results with negative flow setups than positive flow. You can disagree I suppose if you wish, but the temperature results bare this out.
> So "I Disagree" is a rather odd response.
> anyway, good luck with the guide.


The power supplies we use are designed for positive flow cases; in negative flow set ups, they run little hotter
And if you use filters on intakes, positive flow cases run a lot cleaner.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RamboV2*
> 
> Great guide and will definitely be usefull for my builds!
> Well... You are totally wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i love the sound of loud fans!
> I leave my gpu fans 100% at night, it helps me to sleep
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had a small san ace fan that was very fast. I had it as cpu fan at full speed and it did not bother me at all..... Only the people in other rooms


A 120 X 38mm fan has a powerful motor and large fan blades. It moves a large amount of air at lower RPMs.
At 50% power, my CPU (Intel i7 2600K) never gets over 120 degrees F.


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Once again they WARN not to use the PSU plug or you'll lose motherboard control
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you doubt whether I have it or not here it is
> 
> Not the first time I'm telling you as it is.
> Uh, rear exhaust 1 top intake and 2 front intakes (replace the 200mm with your 2 other sp120s)
> You GPU doesn't need much airflow anyway so my suggestion for you is to mount the 2 bottom fans as exhaust. You don't need a side panel fan.
> But, no. We just want the air to flow around not attempt to push air out of the way because if you CAN do it, it needs a LOT of airflow, I don't mean just a lot I'm talking about 120CFM from a 120mm fan
> That's why I suggest side panel fans. Not everyone has enough space in the HDD bay to mount that and bottom fans.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chargeit*
> 
> Yea, I'm looking at it, and I'd remove that front exhaust, maybe even the one next to it.
> 
> What are your temps like?
> 
> This is what I'd try.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that side fan is doing you much good. It could work as a spot for some of that GPU heat to exit if the fan is removed, or, it could just allow your front fresh air to escape. I'd try it without a fan, and also try it blocked off with at least a filter or something.


I have 3 temp probes in my case 1 behind motherboard taped to the back of CPU socket, one between VRM heatsinks on back of GPU, and one taped to my 2tb HDD. While playing bf4 64 player server ultra CPU 40-50C, GPU heatsinks 47-57C HDD 30-40C. Idle CPU 32 GPU 38 HDD 30. Haven't checked my sabertooth mobo temp program laitly so can't think of those tempstemps. Have to check that when testing.

Im going to be:

1. Taking the 140mm fan off the side.
2. Taking the top front 2 sp120's moving them to front.
?. Thinking about putting 200mm up where the sp120s were since it is a high cfm


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Not sure what there is to disagree with. I get better results with negative flow setups than positive flow. You can disagree I suppose if you wish, but the temperature results bare this out.
> So "I Disagree" is a rather odd response.
> anyway, good luck with the guide.
> 
> 
> 
> The power supplies we use are designed for positive flow cases; in negative flow set ups, they run little hotter
> And if you use filters on intakes, positive flow cases run a lot cleaner.
Click to expand...

My point was/is that *I* prefer a negative flow case configuration most of the time. For me they are more effective in the vast majority of cases of my preference

and I did not declare them "better for all".

What got my ire was that the out of hand rejection of the idea that others prefer negative flow.

And as I pointed out, I am willing to pay the extra for a bit more maintenance with negative flow configurations.

This person has no knowledge of the cases I use, the fan specs,types or placement I prefer or use, or why I prefer a negative flow configuration. Never mind being open minded to what kind of results I achieve.

I made the mistake of thinking that someone who has "Thought long and hard before writing this" (thread) may be interested in someone who has a library of different fans and a long history of neg/pos flow experimentation and be open to some new ideas on the subject.

I apparently was wrong about the inclusiveness and the openness to sharing ideas and experiences in this thread.

Thusly, and most likely to the delight of Dave, I will refrain from any further participation.

Happy Cooling 

Greg


----------



## Vario

I installed a Samuel 17 into my Elite 120 ITX case, the temps are pretty good, but I had to mount the fan blowing upwards so that I didn't compete with the power supply for air.

*Do you believe there are any problems having the fan blow into the power supply fan?* Could I wear out or damage the PSU fan somehow doing this?

Here is a photo of what I mean:


CPU is a i5 2550k.

If I flipped the power supply the case would have no exhaust and the airflow wouldn't be any better as the fan would have no space to either intake nor exhaust.

The temperatures are pretty reasonable:
~30-35*C idle (windows desktop) and 55-65*C load (prime95).

Temperatures on the power supply (hand on the PSU vent) seem pretty reasonable.

I have the wires managed as best as the case allows, there are no wires in direct airflow all the wires are either tied down or zip tied in a bundle at the top between the power supply and the optical drive (where no airflow is required).


The 120x38 koolance intake has a 120x25mm spacer and a air filter. You can see it is a direct shot back with very little obstruction.


----------



## DaveLT

Since you don't have any methods of letting heat escape you haven't got a choice ... You know why I hate ITX form factors because of this


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Since you don't have any methods of letting heat escape you haven't got a choice ... You know why I hate ITX form factors because of this


Yep. The challenge makes it fun and its a bit easier to move around then the full tower.

I guess I could run a thin fan but then it wouldn't have enough CFM


----------



## vlaint

oh and also do deltas tick when undervolted?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> My point was/is that *I* prefer a negative flow case configuration most of the time. For me they are more effective in the vast majority of cases of my preference
> and I did not declare them "better for all".
> What got my ire was that the out of hand rejection of the idea that others prefer negative flow.
> And as I pointed out, I am willing to pay the extra for a bit more maintenance with negative flow configurations.
> This person has no knowledge of the cases I use, the fan specs,types or placement I prefer or use, or why I prefer a negative flow configuration. Never mind being open minded to what kind of results I achieve.
> I made the mistake of thinking that someone who has "Thought long and hard before writing this" (thread) may be interested in someone who has a library of different fans and a long history of neg/pos flow experimentation and be open to some new ideas on the subject.
> I apparently was wrong about the inclusiveness and the openness to sharing ideas and experiences in this thread.
> Thusly, and most likely to the delight of Dave, I will refrain from any further participation.
> 
> Happy Cooling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg


You were not wrong Greg. Many of us are interested in your experience.
I, for one, was not beating up on you.
Variety makes the world go round.
I was looking forward to a reply explaining why negative flow works so well for you.
Don't let anyone push your buttons or chase you away.
You have as much right here as anyone else.
If you read back, Dave has bit my head off more than once. I am still here.
Dave is Dave. He's a little rough around the edges, but he means well.
I have thick skin, and no buttons (I will not let anyone make me angry)
None of this is personal.
I'm still looking forward to that reply.

Happy Cooling







to you too.
Wes


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> oh and also do deltas tick when undervolted?


With PWM, I've never had a problem.
But I've never tried voltage control on any of my Deltas.
Are you refereeing to voltage control; and what did this, a motherboard header or a controller.


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> With PWM, I've never had a problem.
> But I've never tried voltage control on any of my Deltas.
> Are you refereeing to voltage control; and what did this, a motherboard header or a controller.


hmm a fan controller maybe? are afb1212me /he ok to plug on mobo headers? heard delta's take more current.


----------



## ozlay

will see if i can get you a high res pic of a delta mega fast 4a version


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozlay*
> 
> will see if i can get you a high res pic of a delta mega fast 4a version


lol thats too much


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> oh and also do deltas tick when undervolted?


The PWM fans do tick on those fan controllers that do not filter the outputs, the 3 pin models don't.
Thankfully my mobo has been putting out clean outputs







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> hmm a fan controller maybe? are afb1212me /he ok to plug on mobo headers? heard delta's take more current.


Of course they do but it isn't that much more. Unless say ... You had my PFR0812XHE I use to scare my mates







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alasmodified*
> 
> i WONT HAVE ANY AIR FLOW ON MY MOTHERBOARD AREA IS THIS BAD FOR THE CHIPSET AND VRM WHICH HAVE PASSIVE HEAT SINKS EVGA Z87 CLASSIFIED?


I think you need to calm down or fix the caps lock on your keyboard before asking ._.
I imagine not, the z87 classified has a pretty large heatsink.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Phanteks PWM signal controlled 3-pin fan hub with PSU power witl control up to 30w using PSU for power. Wouldn't want to try running 30w of fans without PSU power. Motherboard fan headers are usually are 1a / 12w load rating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again they WARN not to use the PSU plug or you'll lose motherboard control
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you doubt whether I have it or not here it is
> 
> Not the first time I'm telling you as it is.
Click to expand...

*That simply is not true .. it is a lie by omission. .








Please supply a link to where Phanteks say that.







*

Having one does not mean you have know how it works, that your motherboard supports it, or know how to use it properly.









You are correct, not the first time.
But it is still not the what the Phanteks PWM hub is designed to do .. and does very well when it has a proper PWM signal supplied to it .. and your above statement indicates you do not know how it works.









Using the Phanteks PWM fan hub as you describe above is using it as a splitter, not as a PWM controlled 3-pin fan adapter that uses 12v power from PSU .. and that is what the Phanteks PWM fan header"s designed to do. Using it as a splitter as you say above can be done from a 3-pin fan header or 4-pin fan header that is not a real PWM header using pin-2 power to

The Phanteks PWM fan hub is designed to use a PWM control signal in the same way a PWM fan uses it on it's internal PCB to trigger the 12v power in pulses to control the fan speed .. slow signal = shorter 12v pulses = less fan speed.; fast signal = longer pulses = more fan speed .. with 12v power from motherboard or PSU. The Phanteks PWM hub uses the signal to control the 12v power from PSU and control fan speed .. slow signal = slow fan speed; fast signal = fast fan speed .. with 12v power from motherboard or PSU.

On motherboards that send a PWM control signal on pin-4 to the PWM PCB in PWM fans( the way PWM fans are designed to work), the Phanteks PWM hub controls the speed of 3-pin fans plugged into it using power from the PSU.

But the Phanteks PWM hub will run fans a full speed on 12v from PSU if the motherboard's "PWM fan header" pulses the power on pin-2 instead of sending a signal on pin-4 .. and this is the most often cause for the Phanteks PWM hub not working properly with 12v for PSU. That or the motherboard PWM signal is not compatable with the Phanteks PWM hub.

If you cannot get yours to work, then your motherboard 4-pin header is not sending a PWM signal from pin-4 to the Phanteks fan hub. This could be because your motherboard is not have PWM fan header designed to send a PWM signal on pin-4 or is not setup in bios properly to do so.


----------



## vlaint

er someones selling a jetflo here... afb1212he or jetflo? leaning on delta still but i dont know


----------



## HiTechPixel

So, I'm looking for a high-performance case that doesn't have a lot of fluff (read: unecessary stuff like fan controllers, 5.25" bays, windows etc.) with good options for proper airflow. Regardless of which case it is I'll be looking at using the new Noctua Industrial fans because they're just insanely good looking when you remove the brown washers.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> So, I'm looking for a high-performance case that doesn't have a lot of fluff (read: unecessary stuff like fan controllers, 5.25" bays, windows etc.) with good options for proper airflow. Regardless of which case it is I'll be looking at using the new Noctua Industrial fans because they're just insanely good looking when you remove the brown washers.


Very few people will ever find a case that has exactly what they want.
Buy one that's close, then add or remove parts till you have what you want !!! .


----------



## HiTechPixel

The one that's closest to what I want is the Fractal Design Arc Mini/Midi. Getting rid of the 5.25" bay is easy. Either drill out the rivets or screw it off. It's plastic however and that I freaking hate. They also have fan controllers which I also freaking hate.

I'm holding out for the new Phanteks Evolv and I'm hoping it releases soon since I'm going the X99 road but if it comes out in 2015 or something then I'll need something else. In the end I might just go the test-bench route. The Dimastech ones look sexy.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> So, I'm looking for a high-performance case that doesn't have a lot of fluff (read: unecessary stuff like fan controllers, 5.25" bays, windows etc.) with good options for proper airflow. Regardless of which case it is I'll be looking at using the new Noctua Industrial fans because they're just insanely good looking when you remove the brown washers.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> So, I'm looking for a high-performance case that doesn't have a lot of fluff (read: unecessary stuff like fan controllers, 5.25" bays, windows etc.) with good options for proper airflow. Regardless of which case it is I'll be looking at using the new Noctua Industrial fans because they're just insanely good looking when you remove the brown washers.
> 
> 
> 
> Very few people will ever find a case that has exactly what they want.
> Buy one that's close, then add or remove parts till you have what you want !!! .
Click to expand...

 What Luke said, however the NZXT Switch 810 has really great cooling features and placement from from to back. with adjustable directional options in the middle of the case. it is deep enough to accommodate the largest of coolers as well. really an air coolers case.







good luck


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> good luck


Meh. Don't like how big it is and how it looks. Also don't like the innards.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> So, I'm looking for a high-performance case that doesn't have a lot of fluff (read: unecessary stuff like fan controllers, 5.25" bays, windows etc.) with good options for proper airflow. Regardless of which case it is I'll be looking at using the new Noctua Industrial fans because they're just insanely good looking when you remove the brown washers.


Phanteks Enthoo Pro.
In this thread if you mention noctuas you are in the wrong place








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> What Luke said, however the NZXT Switch 810 has really great cooling features and placement from from to back. with adjustable directional options in the middle of the case. it is deep enough to accommodate the largest of coolers as well. really an air coolers case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good luck


Unfortunately it's gone out of production and for good measure too. The quality on 810s is just appalling ... I have one and I know very well.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Phanteks Enthoo Pro.
> In this thread if you mention noctuas you are in the wrong place


Eh, the Enthoo Pro is too big as well. Or rather, too tall. I also don't like its styling. And why aren't Noctuas good? The Industrial versions are amazing.


----------



## RnRollie

try a chieftec case maybe


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Once again they WARN not to use the PSU plug or you'll lose motherboard control smile.gif




You have to read everything under the bold print as one statement, what the manuals says is:
The 12V SATA power cable cannot be used to power the HUB if its fan control cable is connected to a voltage control header.
This means that the 12V SATA power cable should be used to power the HUB, only if its fan control cable is connected to a PWM control header.

With this in mind, try your hub again. I'll bet it works fine.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Eh, the Enthoo Pro is too big as well. Or rather, too tall. I also don't like its styling. And why aren't Noctuas good? The Industrial versions are amazing.


Big? You call this too tall?
It's styling is simple and clean what's not to like about it 

Because they are expensive and still mediocre for what you pay.
And removing those brown pads is removing what noctua wants it to be in the first place, to lower vibration transmission from the fan to the case


----------



## X-PREDATOR

whats your thaughts on CM Blade Master fans and the 140mm jetflos?
are the 120 jetflos realy worth it if you dont want to get too expensive fans? ive seen some report it to loose half of its airflo power when on rads or heatsinks even before it even pushes it out in the directed path?


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> So, I'm looking for a high-performance case that doesn't have a lot of fluff (read: unecessary stuff like fan controllers, 5.25" bays, windows etc.) with good options for proper airflow. Regardless of which case it is I'll be looking at using the new Noctua Industrial fans because they're just insanely good looking when you remove the brown washers.


You enjoy those $32 fans which <$10 deltas can outperform.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Eh, the Enthoo Pro is too big as well. Or rather, too tall. I also don't like its styling. And why aren't Noctuas good? The Industrial versions are amazing.


If you think the "fluffed" specs on the industrials are good then youre sorely misled. The only thing Noctuas are good for are people who think ball bearing fans are too loud and demand poor airflow and silence and have more money than wit. Noctua is just trying to appeal to their cult following.

And honestly I call bs with their 140mm having significantly more pressure than the 120 at the same speed, but I cant find any good reviews like from martinsliquidlab to see real results.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> hmm a fan controller maybe? are afb1212me /he ok to plug on mobo headers? heard delta's take more current.


I have the 25mm AFB1212M 3 pin models and im voltage controlling 2 off of a single mobo header. they each peak at .4A iirc


----------



## HiTechPixel

I can't even get Delta fans easily in Sweden.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> whats your thaughts on CM Blade Master fans and the 140mm jetflos?
> are the 120 jetflos realy worth it if you dont want to get too expensive fans? ive seen some report it to loose half of its airflo power when on rads or heatsinks even before it even pushes it out in the directed path?


Rubbish. Full 140 jetflos ... I don't think CM really wants to put them into production
Yes. False. All fans lose a appropriate amount of airflow on rads or heatsink.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Once again they WARN not to use the PSU plug or you'll lose motherboard control smile.gif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have to read everything under the bold print as one statement, what the manuals says is:
> The 12V SATA power cable cannot be used to power the HUB if its fan control cable is connected to a voltage control header.
> This means that the 12V SATA power cable should be used to power the HUB, only if its fan control cable is connected to a PWM control header.
> 
> With this in mind, try your hub again. I'll bet it works fine.
Click to expand...

As Luke Cool said, read all of the manual and don't go off half baked. The Phanteks PWM fan hubs work great for us "thick" people who can understand how they are to be used.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Eh, the Enthoo Pro is too big as well. Or rather, too tall. I also don't like its styling. And why aren't Noctuas good? The Industrial versions are amazing.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> I can't even get Delta fans easily in Sweden.


I ordered 4 from Poland to the states last month. There out there, just check up on ebay, as they usually have the best variety. If you want 2200rpm models search for AFB1212H that are from dells, theyre actually wrongly labeled AFB1212Ms. the rest of the lineup is pretty standard.


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Hi guys,

Please respect each other. Name calling, rude/condescending behaviour won't be tolerated and will be subjected to infractions/warnings.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ok thanks for response.
if i my ask..why are the blademasters bad ..ive got two new ones sitting here..only gripe ive got is that they have an annoying low and hjigh pitched sound to them..for cheap fans they not too crap?
yeah ive asked CM before why they dont put the jetfo 140's in the fa market..i think theyll do great..
im currently using CM extra Flos red led..whats your thaughts on these?


----------



## Thready

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *5entinel*
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Please respect each other. Name calling, rude/condescending behaviour won't be tolerated and will be subjected to infractions/warnings.


Well you know air cooling is a really controversial topic and you're bound to have passionate opinions on both sides of things. Don't even get me started on water cooling. I've gotten into brawls over which rad fin design is better.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> ok thanks for response.
> if i my ask..why are the blademasters bad ..ive got two new ones sitting here..only gripe ive got is that they have an annoying low and hjigh pitched sound to them..for cheap fans they not too crap?
> yeah ive asked CM before why they dont put the jetfo 140's in the fa market..i think theyll do great..
> im currently using CM extra Flos red led..whats your thaughts on these?


I just think of them as crap because their performance is really below mediocre and they're very loud.
I also want CM Jetflo 140s








Xtraflos aren't too bad but they are still mediocre


----------



## X-PREDATOR

thanks..ive had the Xtraflos now for 3yrs amost..theyve outdone themselves..i only baught them cause at that time i got five of them for the price of one GT ap18/15..and i wasafter some nice red bling to show of the rig..their showing their age now.. i dont dare run them above 37% 1400rpm+-
gets to loud and one of them is really busted..it hits against one of the rads when in pull pos..bearing is screwed..goin to put the blades in over the weekend..

i just tried serching..i saw on youtube a while ago at a cm booth were they showed some secret magic fan concepts..Jetflo Gentle typhoon style fans in 120/140 and 200 mm style trim..i cant find it anymore..but man imagine some decent CM typhoon style jetflos pushng above 100cfm at 1500 rpm..now that would be golden in my book?

nice thread dude..really enjoyed reading it all..


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thready*
> 
> Well you know air cooling is a really controversial topic and you're bound to have passionate opinions on both sides of things. Don't even get me started on water cooling. I've gotten into brawls over which rad fin design is better.


























Do it with-in the rules.


----------



## Thready

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do it with-in the rules.


Well if I can't belittle someone and make myself feel superior over air cooling (because my air cooling is the best obviously) then I guess I need to go to Yahoo article comments sections where people actually listen and have some sense.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thready*
> 
> Well if I can't belittle someone and make myself feel superior over air cooling (because my air cooling is the best obviously) then I guess I need to go to Yahoo article comments sections where people actually listen and have some sense.


When they don't argue back and they agree with you all the time,
don't be fooled into thinking "they listen and have some sense".
Yep, nothing like visiting a newbie site to give an Overclocker a GOD complex.
But what is the fun in that. I enjoy arguing points with intelligent knowledgeable people. That is when I learn the most.
The best way to grow mentally is continently being exposed to intelligent new and useful information,
then pay attention and think things through.

I don't like to see grown men arguing like children. There has to be rules, lines we don't cross.
Basically, avoid posting anything that is geared toward inciting an angry response.
Nether participant should ever do anything to discourage an open dialog.
Never follow the bad example someone else sets. Make clean post, let the other person look like the bad guy.
It makes for a great show when two witty intelligent people debate a point, and do so while acting like adults.
This is what I strive for; but I, like most of us, often come up short.
The more we practice the correct way, the better we will get at it.


----------



## ozlay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> lol thats too much


non sense been thinking about getting 2 for my nh-d14


----------



## ldewitt

Temps prime95 for 3-5 hours.....
processor is throttling might have cool n quiet on or c1E...

Good Temps?


----------



## sweenytodd

If you buy Jetflo fan, check them after owning for a week. They leak a lot of oil. I would not buy them again.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sweenytodd*
> 
> If you buy Jetflo fan, check them after owning for a week. They leak a lot of oil. I would not buy them again.


You got an faulty one. I had one full batch and they are all right


----------



## sweenytodd

I bought one from Direct Canada and two from Memory Express. They leaked but the one that was mounted horizontally as bottom intake has the most oil leaked on it. Just be careful with those fans. They are really great fans. Airflow specs are right and not scam.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sweenytodd*
> 
> I bought one from Direct Canada and two from Memory Express. They leaked but the one that was mounted horizontally as bottom intake has the most oil leaked on it. Just be careful with those fans. They are really great fans. Airflow specs are right and not scam.


Well, in all fairness, noctua fans have leaked too.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

any fan can leak if their respective makers over compensated the lubes to try make it run smoother and quieter..
ive had a 200mm fan do this..took it out asap..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> any fan can leak if their respective makers over compensated the lubes to try make it run smoother and quieter..
> ive had a 200mm fan do this..took it out asap..


Nope. Poor sealing.







Every "FDB" style fan will leak either way. Corsair too.
And most aren't sealed that well either despite being a FDB, they will still dry out but not as fast as a sleeve.
Corsair SP120s are also prone to leakage anyway


----------



## Vario

I got my first SP120HPE with my Samuel17 (used, sold as a combo), they look nice, feel pretty heavy, solid, but I'm pretty unimpressed with the performance, its very loud but doesn't move very much air. Still its a 4 pin PWM fan so I am running it anyway as its in a living room box.

btw heres how I air cool my videocard lol


----------



## X-PREDATOR

true..but even so..with tighter qaulity control at production levels..things should progress forward..if not now..maybe someday...heck i just added a nepton 140XL and the 280l to my shop cart on a website..just so i can get 140mm jetflos..i think im goin to whisper good things to CM in my next email..time some1 stepped their game up..
about your craze about deltas..i wouldnt mind trying them one day..

ive got a different fan in use also..maybe youve tried them?i have one as intake in my 5.25bays..even at full tilt..its dead silent..i cant hear it at all..having it tied with zips and adhesive foam pads ..

http://www.google.com/m?q=thermaltake+140mm+turbofan&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new

and my others

http://www.google.com/search?q=140mm+silent+X&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=jt4BVPrEFIndauSXgrgG&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

side and bottom and rear..very silent motors..these are what i call silent as the grave..push decent air..and low power fans..
whats your thaughts on these?


----------



## Thready

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Nope. Poor sealing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every "FDB" style fan will leak either way. Corsair too.
> And most aren't sealed that well either despite being a FDB, they will still dry out but not as fast as a sleeve.
> Corsair SP120s are also prone to leakage anyway


Well to be fair, every single fan ever made in the history of computers has had some sort of leak. It's probably not always enough to be noticeable or measurable, but it's there. That's the nature of air. Air is so tiny that it can even leak through plastic if the plastic has enough microscopic pores. But the question should be whether or not the leak's noticeable. I don't know if this comment helps the discussion but it's something that I thought of when I read your guys' back and forth.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thready*
> 
> Well to be fair, every single fan ever made in the history of computers has had some sort of leak. It's probably not always enough to be noticeable or measurable, but it's there. That's the nature of air. Air is so tiny that it can even leak through plastic if the plastic has enough microscopic pores. But the question should be whether or not the leak's noticeable. I don't know if this comment helps the discussion but it's something that I thought of when I read your guys' back and forth.


Welcome to Earth. Everything we make is like us, flawed.
There is no perfect fan; and most of the fans that have been bad mouthed, I know are good fans.
I like to see fair evaluations, a list of a fans good and bad points.
The more complete the list, the move objective the reviewer, the more useful the information is.
What we've heard is personal preferences.
Some fans are made better and they're more versatile than others, but they cost more.
Take everything in context and make up your own mind.
I own over 100 fans, none do I dislike. In the correct place, used for the right job, all work well.
Yes, I've seen many fans wear out and fail (especially video card fans), but nothing last forever.










This fan works poorly on the CPU it came with, but it kicks butt on this old graphic card.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> true..but even so..with tighter qaulity control at production levels..things should progress forward..if not now..maybe someday...heck i just added a nepton 140XL and the 280l to my shop cart on a website..just so i can get 140mm jetflos..i think im goin to whisper good things to CM in my next email..time some1 stepped their game up..
> about your craze about deltas..i wouldnt mind trying them one day..
> 
> ive got a different fan in use also..maybe youve tried them?i have one as intake in my 5.25bays..even at full tilt..its dead silent..i cant hear it at all..having it tied with zips and adhesive foam pads ..
> 
> http://www.google.com/m?q=thermaltake+140mm+turbofan&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new
> 
> and my others
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=140mm+silent+X&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=jt4BVPrEFIndauSXgrgG&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
> 
> side and bottom and rear..very silent motors..these are what i call silent as the grave..push decent air..and low power fans..
> whats your thaughts on these?


Meh the 140 jetflos on the neptons are rifle bearing and mine rattles at high speed sometimes. They're great yes but it's not even near perfect if it rattles so badly... Also they're quite loud. Noticeably louder than my jetflo 120

Any thermaltake fan = garbage as well as bitfenix. As for thermalright ... not a fan of their fans either. They are silent as a graveyard but they produce jack airflow.


----------



## HiTechPixel

So. I'm a bit stumped after thinking back and forth how to go about this build, cooling-wise.

Should I go a water-cooler or air-cooler? NZXT Kraken X61 vs Cryorig R1 Ultimate?

How should I place my fans and how should I connect them?

3x 120mm fans in the front

2x 140mm fans in the top

1x 140mm fan in the rear

ARGH! So confusing... Makes me wanna go open-air testbench instead.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> So. I'm a bit stumped after thinking back and forth how to go about this build, cooling-wise.
> 
> Should I go a water-cooler or air-cooler? NZXT Kraken X61 vs Cryorig R1 Ultimate?
> 
> How should I place my fans and how should I connect them?
> 
> 3x 120mm fans in the front
> 
> 2x 140mm fans in the top
> 
> 1x 140mm fan in the rear
> 
> ARGH! So confusing... Makes me wanna go open-air testbench instead.


Get the air cooler, then you never have to worry about leaks or pump failure, especially as the system ages. Just think, 3-4 years from now you leave the system on go out of the room and maybe the pump fails from age or a hose cracks. With air cooler, no need to worry it can't go bad. Even if the fan fails.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Get the air cooler, then you never have to worry about leaks or pump failure, especially as the system ages. Just think, 3-4 years from now you leave the system on go out of the room and maybe the pump fails from age or a hose cracks. With air cooler, no need to worry it can't go bad. Even if the fan fails.


Yeah. I guess. That just leaves the fan question...

Would controlling the CPU-cooler via the CPU_FAN header and then controlling the individual case fans via the fan hub in the NZXT H440 work well? That seems to be the best solution.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Yeah. I guess. That just leaves the fan question...
> 
> Would controlling the CPU-cooler via the CPU_FAN header and then controlling the individual case fans via the fan hub in the NZXT H440 work well? That seems to be the best solution.


Yes I'd try that first.


----------



## DaveLT

While I head this thread I've gone over to water cooling a long time ago


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> While I head this thread I've gone over to water cooling a long time ago


In principle, they are very similar.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> In principle, they are very similar.


Technically yes but you have shifted the need for cooling elsewhere as you don't have deal with pesky temperatures around the component


----------



## X-PREDATOR

so what your saying is all ty and TT fans are crapola?
why?
sorry but im a curious person and i like the points you make..do you mind if i nit pick your brain?
you say bad airflo..yet im using 4 of them ib my rig..running for 3yrs now.have never had an issue with them..
i will replace everything.one day...


----------



## doyll

I use lots of Thermalright TY-14x series fans. They are all very good. ehume named TY-140 in top three fans out of 60 fans he tested and wrote up on Vortez .. and he knows his fans. I like my Phanteks PH-F140SP and Cryorig XT140 and XF140 fans too.

They don't put out air like Deltas, Nidec, etc. .. but they are much quieter. HDDs make more noise than the fans do.


----------



## TheGRig

Hey Guys, I would like some clarification on these Silverstone 140mm 171CFM Fan. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835220056 would they be good for intake fans on my Corsair 300R?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

that thing looks like itll lift off the hole pc..wowzer...that thing will surely push a ton of air..hell..sign me up.if only..

sorry for sidestepping in here @Dave..

i think in the end its all trial & error and that most users can sometimes only use certain fans because the good stuff isnt available too them..
in my region im stuck with ..CM..corsair..bitfenix..noctua(only 1 seller in SA ) and other cheaper stuff not worth mentioning..
So in the end some are forced to buy things they dont want actualy..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> so what your saying is all ty and TT fans are crapola?
> why?
> sorry but im a curious person and i like the points you make..do you mind if i nit pick your brain?
> you say bad airflo..yet im using 4 of them ib my rig..running for 3yrs now.have never had an issue with them..
> i will replace everything.one day...


No. Not necessarily. Not a fan of thermalright TY fans because of their color scheme but they aren't bad ... Just their price is also not that good. Unfortunately, they do tend to overrate their specs as well. That in my book is straight away not a good fan but also, a tad too noisy.
Thermaltake fans are crapola full stop

I don't need to explain that the thermaltake fans are not up to paper'd spec and pretty wildly out of spec
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGRig*
> 
> Hey Guys, I would like some clarification on these Silverstone 140mm 171CFM Fan. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835220056 would they be good for intake fans on my Corsair 300R?


It is overkill though.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

thanks and noted..well then im just off the lucky few who maybe has had no +- of the ones ive got..heck..if this thermaltake turbofan was 1500rpm..pwm..id put it on my cpu cooler..full tilt..it serves it purpose very well atm..providing good intake towards the cpu&gpu..its all ive got atm..so im content with it..till i can replace it all..
but replacing almost 12fans isnt cheap..very expensive...

if i may ask..top intake vs echaust vs intake+out..
ive got a 200mm as top exhaust..ive tried it as intake but there were no real benefits.maybe a degree or two...my cases top panel is a strange one..but as out..its served best...would taking this 200mm out and putting three 120/140mm fans there be better..to expell heat out quicker?
my setup is 85% + intake..10% out..5% passive lotsa openings for air to escape..highest temps ive ever seen was close to 65°C..


----------



## HiTechPixel

I have a question about the Phanteks PWM fan hub found in the Phanteks Enthoo Pro chassis. Does it receive power only from the PSU and does it receive RPM/PWM signals from the motherboard?

So, if I connect six 3-pin fans to the PWM fan hub, can I control them via my motherboard by connecting the 4-pin PWM cable from the fan hub to the motherboard?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheGRig*
> 
> Hey Guys, I would like some clarification on these Silverstone 140mm 171CFM Fan. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835220056 would they be good for intake fans on my Corsair 300R?


I prefer Thermalright TY-143 to FHP-141. TY-143 can't be heard less than a meter away below 900rpm on a cooler, just audible at 1100rpm and doesn't start getting loud until over 1500rpm has ball bearings, good looks, similar noise levels and idles at 600rpm. I've had mine as low as 550rpm.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> I have a question about the Phanteks PWM fan hub found in the Phanteks Enthoo Pro chassis. Does it receive power only from the PSU and does it receive RPM/PWM signals from the motherboard?
> 
> So, if I connect six 3-pin fans to the PWM fan hub, can I control them via my motherboard by connecting the 4-pin PWM cable from the fan hub to the motherboard?


Phanteks PWM fan hub can use motherboard power or PSU power. If used with more then 3 or 4 fans or more than 10-11watt it needs PSU power. I use PSU power whenever possible. Yes,PWM signal from motherboard to fan hub and RPM signal from fan on header 1 to motherboard.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Phanteks PWM fan hub can use motherboard power or PSU power. If used with more then 3 or 4 fans or more than 10-11watt it needs PSU power. I use PSU power whenever possible. Yes,PWM signal from motherboard to fan hub and RPM signal from fan on header 1 to motherboard.


This has to be too good to be true. So you're telling me that I can connect all six of my fans to the fan hub, power them all with a breeze with power from the PSU all the while controlling their speed via RPM from my motherboard? That's freaking insane.


----------



## DaveLT

Doyll, your help here isn't appreciated.







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> thanks and noted..well then im just off the lucky few who maybe has had no +- of the ones ive got..heck..if this thermaltake turbofan was 1500rpm..pwm..id put it on my cpu cooler..full tilt..it serves it purpose very well atm..providing good intake towards the cpu&gpu..its all ive got atm..so im content with it..till i can replace it all..
> but replacing almost 12fans isnt cheap..very expensive...
> 
> if i may ask..top intake vs echaust vs intake+out..
> ive got a 200mm as top exhaust..ive tried it as intake but there were no real benefits.maybe a degree or two...my cases top panel is a strange one..but as out..its served best...would taking this 200mm out and putting three 120/140mm fans there be better..to expell heat out quicker?
> my setup is 85% + intake..10% out..5% passive lotsa openings for air to escape..highest temps ive ever seen was close to 65°C..


Any improvement is an improvement







I suggest as a intake though ...
Basically rear exhaust 2-3 front intake 1 TOP INTAKE for the VRM areas if you are on a standard heatsink. 2 bottom intakes
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> I have a question about the Phanteks PWM fan hub found in the Phanteks Enthoo Pro chassis. Does it receive power only from the PSU and does it receive RPM/PWM signals from the motherboard?
> 
> So, if I connect six 3-pin fans to the PWM fan hub, can I control them via my motherboard by connecting the 4-pin PWM cable from the fan hub to the motherboard?


It can receive power from the PSU if you plug in the sata port. And yes it does. It sends only 1 RPM signal from fan port 1 to the motherboard like all splitters

Yes. Just don't step over 30W for 6 fans.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It can receive power from the PSU if you plug in the sata port. And yes it does. It sends only 1 RPM signal from fan port 1 to the motherboard like all splitters
> 
> Yes. Just don't step over 30W for 6 fans.


I'll be using six fans that at max speed (2000 RPM) pulls altogether 13W/1.10A (a bit of over provisioning taken into calculation)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> I'll be using six fans that at max speed (2000 RPM) pulls altogether 13W/1.10A (a bit of over provisioning taken into calculation)


Good. What are those fans?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> This has to be too good to be true. So you're telling me that I can connect all six of my fans to the fan hub, power them all with a breeze with power from the PSU all the while controlling their speed via RPM from my motherboard? That's freaking insane.


Assuming you have a real PWM signal on your CPU fan header on pin-4, yes. Phanteks says up to 11 fans and they supply 2x Y-splitters with Enthoo Primo to be able to use 8 fans.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Good. What are those fans?


Noctua NF-A14 iPPC-2000 3-pin. Feel free to double check if you'd like to make sure my calculations are correct.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Assuming you have a real PWM signal on your CPU fan header on pin-4, yes. Phanteks says up to 11 fans and they supply 2x Y-splitters with Enthoo Primo to be able to use 8 fans.


I'll check in the manual to make sure.

Edit: Checking the manual, it seems to be true 4-pin PWM. This is what it says on CPU_FAN1~2:

Pin 1: Ground
Pin 2: +12V
Pin 3: Sense
Pin 4: Speed Control

This is what it says on SYS_FAN1~3:

Pin 1: Ground
Pin 2: Speed Control
Pin 3: Sense
Pin 4: NC

The motherboard is an MSI X99S SLI PLUS. Since you all know 100% more than I do, feel free to verify that CPU_FAN1~2 is indeed PWM.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Noctua NF-A14 iPPC-2000 3-pin. Feel free to double check if you'd like to make sure my calculations are correct.
> I'll check in the manual to make sure.
> 
> Edit: Checking the manual, it seems to be true 4-pin PWM. This is what it says on CPU_FAN1~2:
> 
> Pin 1: Ground
> Pin 2: +12V
> Pin 3: Sense
> Pin 4: Speed Control
> 
> This is what it says on SYS_FAN1~3:
> 
> Pin 1: Ground
> Pin 2: Speed Control
> Pin 3: Sense
> Pin 4: NC
> 
> The motherboard is an MSI X99S SLI PLUS. Since you all know 100% more than I do, feel free to verify that CPU_FAN1~2 is indeed PWM.


Well noctuas ...
Yup it is a 4pin PWM.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Assuming you have a real PWM signal on your CPU fan header on pin-4, yes. Phanteks says up to 11 fans and they supply 2x Y-splitters with Enthoo Primo to be able to use 8 fans.


Get out.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Well noctuas ...
> Yup it is a 4pin PWM.


Alright! Now it's just a matter of ordering the parts.

Still a bit unsure of whether it'll work out as I think it will in terms of connecting it all together. I plan to connect my cpu cooler (Cryorig R1 Ultimate) to one of the CPU_FAN headers and connect the fan hub to the other. As long as for some reason the fan hub doesn't consume any power from the motherboard while being connected to the PSU, I think I'll be alright.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Alright! Now it's just a matter of ordering the parts.
> 
> Still a bit unsure of whether it'll work out as I think it will in terms of connecting it all together. I plan to connect my cpu cooler (Cryorig R1 Ultimate) to one of the CPU_FAN headers and connect the fan hub to the other. As long as for some reason the fan hub doesn't consume any power from the motherboard while being connected to the PSU, I think I'll be alright.


Should work just fine. Do let me know how it terns out.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Sure, I'll report back once I've built it.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

wowzers...msi X99..now im so jelous...
just make sure before buying that all fan headers are controllable..contact msi support first..even if the manual says pwm..it doesnt always go that way...
nice fans..wow..2000rpm 140mm..nice..should do pretty good..have you baught the mobo already?
what else is goin in this build?case?
i love building & tweaking stuff..
@Dave..not standard..one of the best ive ever owned..phtc14pe..if i put my hand between the top fan and cooler i can feel a
very strong pull/airflo being pulled by the top 200mm..very very hot air..
idle temps are 19-35 ..load doesnt go above 45-55 at current state..
ive got only the two exhaust fans..top & rear..then a lot of openings in the case..two open fan spots on the side panel..alot of hex openings..so the air goes out quick..im doin a quick clean..maybe more..tommorow..ddnt do any this weekend..was to busy enjoying Crysis 3..been after this a long time..now to just destroy that darn alpha ceph..


----------



## HiTechPixel

Long post incoming, so bear with me.

1.) I'll be switching to Z97 from X99 due to costs. DDR4 is way too expensive for what it is and with the money saved, I can go 4790K and EVGA Z97 Classified for a lot less money.

2.) The Z97 Classified has, according to the manual, three PWM capable fan headers: CPU_FAN, CPU2_FAN and CHA_FAN. Anyone wanna verify that?

3.) I'll stick to the same plan I had before and connect my Cryorig R1 Ultimate to the primary CPU_FAN and the Phanteks PWM fan hub to CPU2_FAN. Now here's the thing: I don't know if CPU_FAN and CPU2_FAN shares the same power delivery and since I want to be absolutely sure, I have already emailed EVGA about this. In any case, if CHA_FAN really is PWM then I'll use that one if CPU2_FAN won't work out the way I wanted it to.

4.) I've discovered I don't need six fans. So I'll only be using four which should decrease the power usage a fair bit.

5.) I read on another forum that if you connect the 12V SATA power from the Phanteks PWM fan hub to a PSU then the 3-pin fans will run at a constant 12V even if you connect the PWM connector to a PWM capable fan header on the motherboard. Is this true or is it just lies?

Thanks!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Long post incoming, so bear with me.
> 
> 1.) I'll be switching to Z97 from X99 due to costs. DDR4 is way too expensive for what it is and with the money saved, I can go 4790K and EVGA Z97 Classified for a lot less money.
> 
> 2.) The Z97 Classified has, according to the manual, three PWM capable fan headers: CPU_FAN, CPU2_FAN and CHA_FAN. Anyone wanna verify that?
> 
> 3.) I'll stick to the same plan I had before and connect my Cryorig R1 Ultimate to the primary CPU_FAN and the Phanteks PWM fan hub to CPU2_FAN. Now here's the thing: I don't know if CPU_FAN and CPU2_FAN shares the same power delivery and since I want to be absolutely sure, I have already emailed EVGA about this. In any case, if CHA_FAN really is PWM then I'll use that one if CPU2_FAN won't work out the way I wanted it to.
> 
> 4.) I've discovered I don't need six fans. So I'll only be using four which should decrease the power usage a fair bit.
> 
> 
> 5.) I read on another forum that if you connect the 12V SATA power from the Phanteks PWM fan hub to a PSU then the 3-pin fans will run at a constant 12V even if you connect the PWM connector to a PWM capable fan header on the motherboard. Is this true or is it just lies?
> 
> Thanks!


It's a half truth.
Many motherboards has "PWM speed control" but there are more than one kind.
* PWM signal kind (kind PWM fans use) supply PWM signal on pin-4 from motherboard to fan. Fan's PWM PCB uses that signal to modulates the +12v power
* PWM fan speed control kind modulates the power from motherboard to the fans which controls the fan speed of 3-pin fans .. and PWM fans will change speed because the voltage is being modulated from motherboard. But there is no PWM signal on pin-4

Phanteks PWM fan hub uses the first kind.


----------



## HiTechPixel

I see. Not that it probably matters anymore because the Cryorig R1 doesn't fit the Z97 EVGA Classified. Had to cancel my order half an hour after I made it.

So, I guess I'll have to go water cooling to get a high overclock.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> I see. Not that it probably matters anymore because the Cryorig R1 doesn't fit the Z97 EVGA Classified. Had to cancel my order half an hour after I made it.
> 
> So, I guess I'll have to go water cooling to get a high overclock.


AIO>High end air cooling








It's technically not water cooling either.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

why doesnt that cooler fit?
is the socket erea to cramped/close to vrm hs/ram ect?
how about a d14/15? SA? phtc14pe?

which case are you goin for/have?


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> AIO>High end air cooling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's technically not water cooling either.


My H100i < my PHTC12DX with two 120x38s+25mm shrouds on it. Also my H100i died in 9 months and yet my PHTC12DX still lives.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> why doesnt that cooler fit?
> is the socket erea to cramped/close to vrm hs/ram ect?
> how about a d14/15? SA? phtc14pe?
> 
> which case are you goin for/have?


The cooler was a Cryorig R1 and the motherboard was a Z97 EVGA Classified. I emailed Cryorig and asked if the cooler would fit, and sadly, they said it wouldn't. Reason being is the heatsinks on the motherboard are too high.

I'm afraid any other high-end air cooler will probably be out of the question as well.

I'll however be going with a Corsair H110.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> My H100i < my PHTC12DX with two 120x38s+25mm shrouds on it. Also my H100i died in 9 months and yet my PHTC12DX still lives.


H100i is not near as good as top air coolers. On it's good days it's a couple degrees hotter .. and only 2-3 times as loud. Slow it down to the save noise level as top air and it's 5-9c hotter than top air. And as you said, your air cooling 14PE is still running along cooling as good as ever while your H100i is in an early grave.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

its impossible that that cooler wont fit? how high are those mobo heatsinks..?
why not look into one of be-quiets coolers..ive heard good things..
another not too bad an option is a tpc812..

@dave..i apologise if im sidestepping here..


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> H100i is not near as good as top air coolers. On it's good days it's a couple degrees hotter .. and only 2-3 times as loud. Slow it down to the save noise level as top air and it's 5-9c hotter than top air. And as you said, your air cooling 14PE is still running along cooling as good as ever while your H100i is in an early grave.


This is not to fire up a flame but you need to saturate your air cooler to be able to see where the advantage goes.

Give your system a workout so you'll see.

But I agree, the H100i on stock fans will be louder. Put a set of good fans and you can have it quieter.

One thing air coolers have going for them though is VRM, Socket(AMD) cooling.


----------



## CrazyElf

@HiTechPixel

Fans generally don't use much energy unless you're talking very high rpms used for industrial fans. Power consumption is a 3rd degree function (ex: to get double the rpm, you need 2^3 or 8x as much power).

A Gentle Typhoon at 1850 rpm for example uses just 1 watt of energy.

Is it too late to change motherboards? I am not so confident about EVGA owing to the issues that they have had in the past. I am also not sure about their motherboard headers.

Asus Z97 I believe is now all true PWM on their higher end models, and I think Gigabyte and MSI might be.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> It's a half truth.
> Many motherboards has "PWM speed control" but there are more than one kind.
> * PWM signal kind (kind PWM fans use) supply PWM signal on pin-4 from motherboard to fan. Fan's PWM PCB uses that signal to modulates the +12v power
> * PWM fan speed control kind modulates the power from motherboard to the fans which controls the fan speed of 3-pin fans .. and PWM fans will change speed because the voltage is being modulated from motherboard. But there is no PWM signal on pin-4
> 
> Phanteks PWM fan hub uses the first kind.


I thinks someone should link the SPCR article - apparently the Z87 Asus motherboards were not real 4 pins:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=66283

@Doyll, what is unique about that Phanteks fan? It allows 3 pin PWM control?

I have heard of motherboards undervolting fans in the past, but never something like what Phanteks is doing.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> H100i is not near as good as top air coolers. On it's good days it's a couple degrees hotter .. and only 2-3 times as loud. Slow it down to the save noise level as top air and it's 5-9c hotter than top air. And as you said, your air cooling 14PE is still running along cooling as good as ever while your H100i is in an early grave.


as far as I am concerned the H100i kit gives you 2x$50 SP120L fans.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> as far as I am concerned the H100i kit gives you 2x$50 SP120L fans.


http://www.corsair.com/en/hydro-series-h80i-h100i-sp120l-2700-rpm-replacement-fan

A 15$ replacement option..


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> http://www.corsair.com/en/hydro-series-h80i-h100i-sp120l-2700-rpm-replacement-fan
> 
> A 15$ replacement option..


Haha the fans are the only good thing about the product IMO. They are better then the fans with the colored rings. Still suck compared to San Aces though.


----------



## mus1mus

Well, I really think Corsair fans are for Fanboys.









P.S. Stock fans on Hydro Series are loud but can cool quite well. Just too loud according to some accounts.

I'm not really a fan of San Aces TBH. They break quite very easily (quite thin fan blades). But I only have these..


@ehume for the picture.

I'm a Delta Fan, but still is looking for some others.





Been contemplating on painting the fan blades. Now I know what color to get. But not til I get my self this.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> @Doyll, what is unique about that Phanteks fan? It allows 3 pin PWM control?
> 
> I have heard of motherboards undervolting fans in the past, but never something like what Phanteks is doing.


The Phanteks PWM fan hub uses a true PWM signal to adjust voltage to the 3-pin hub headers. It will control up to 11 fans or 30 watts maximum.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> its impossible that that cooler wont fit? how high are those mobo heatsinks..?
> why not look into one of be-quiets coolers..ive heard good things..
> another not too bad an option is a tpc812..


I don't know. Maybe it might. But hearing it from Cryorig themselves I've already cancelled my order on the cooler. The mobo heatsinks are pretty high, dunno HOW high though.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> @HiTechPixel
> 
> Fans generally don't use much energy unless you're talking very high rpms used for industrial fans. Power consumption is a 3rd degree function (ex: to get double the rpm, you need 2^3 or 8x as much power).
> 
> A Gentle Typhoon at 1850 rpm for example uses just 1 watt of energy.
> 
> Is it too late to change motherboards? I am not so confident about EVGA owing to the issues that they have had in the past. I am also not sure about their motherboard headers.


Hm, I see. I'd rather stick with the EVGA motherboard. I've read some reviews of it and it seems good, very good (especially with the latest updated BIOS). And I also really like their BIOS interface a lot more than other manufacturers. Plus, there're 3 PWM fan headers. That's pretty cool.

And it matches my Classified card.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Well, I really think Corsair fans are for Fanboys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Stock fans on Hydro Series are loud but can cool quite well. Just too loud according to some accounts.
> 
> I'm not really a fan of San Aces TBH. They break quite very easily (quite thin fan blades). But I only have these..


They are very very loud and are outperformed by a delta wfb1212m at least the SP120 PWM ones.

If san ace is thin ... i don't know what is thick. They have easily the thickest blades of those I own


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They are very very loud and are outperformed by a delta wfb1212m at least the SP120 PWM ones.
> 
> If san ace is thin ... i don't know what is thick. They have easily the thickest blades of those I own


The plastic feels brittle but it is very hard to break, I pried the impeller off of a dead H1011 with a flat head screwdriver and it took a lot of force, but didn't crack surprisingly.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Haha the fans are the only good thing about the product IMO. They are better then the fans with the colored rings. Still suck compared to San Aces though.


Those 2700rpm SP120s suck. Ive RMAed mine twice and they never went over 2600rpm in standing air, and 2450 against a radiator. I spend around $13 each on PWM AFB1212VHs and theyre so much better and actually hit the values listed in the datasheet.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> The plastic feels brittle but it is very hard to break, I pried the impeller off of a dead H1011 with a flat head screwdriver and it took a lot of force, but didn't crack surprisingly.


I managed to break a H101 ... while it was spinning at 2150rpm it got caught in some extension cables and it snapped into half along with the fan extension cable... Super glue to the rescue


----------



## WiLd FyeR

What you guys think of Push and Push setup?


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WiLd FyeR*
> 
> What you guys think of Push and Push setup?


Bad idea


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WiLd FyeR*
> 
> What you guys think of Push and Push setup?


Do you mean that all your fans are intakes?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WiLd FyeR*
> 
> What you guys think of Push and Push setup?


Welp. I'm not sure if you meant it as a joke or not ... Or else it will have an forced cooling efficacy of exactly ... NOUGHT.


----------



## WiLd FyeR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Welp. I'm not sure if you meant it as a joke or not ... Or else it will have an forced cooling efficacy of exactly ... NOUGHT.


A member posted his 350D build thought I'd share the new setup called Push Push.


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WiLd FyeR*
> 
> A member posted his 350D build thought I'd share the new setup called Push Push.


LOL brilliant!!!! Can't see where one would go wrong. I'd do it probably for the reason the guy above did, to see my cool corsair rings from all openings lol


----------



## mus1mus

Yep.

And wonder why the CPU gets worse temps than having just a Push config or even against the stock cooler for that matter. .


----------



## Iwamotto Tetsuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 
> 
> *Table of Contents*
> 
> *High res pics of a high speed delta! DO WANT!*
> 
> Some notes before I finish off this edit : BIGGER IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER.


Delta fan thats a big no no for me
its loud as hell it'll keep every one wakae if you operate your computer at night
but if you want cooling then hell yeah at the expensise of your ears:thumb:


----------



## ozlay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Iwamotto Tetsuz*
> 
> Delta fan thats a big no no for me
> its loud as hell it'll keep every one wakae if you operate your computer at night
> but if you want cooling then hell yeah at the expensise of your ears:thumb:


I love the sound of my deltas and i cant sleep with out them actually


----------



## X-PREDATOR

oh..kkk..that looks like hes goin to wonder
why its sounds like a jet engine howl.

if you can tell that guy..please.change yo fans setup asap..a...sap..and to move it to the top rather in push pull exhaust..and put fans on the front as intake..
ok..now im worried for that pcs health and prosperrity..

eish its cold..04:00am..stuck at work..graveyard shift..absolutely hate it...give me 100 pcs and 5days 24/7 rather to fix..atleast then i dont freeze..

hey dave hows it goin..im loving this thread of yours..lotsa good info coming thru here


----------



## mus1mus

You mean the Push-Push info?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

all that popcorn smily needs now is melted butter..a cool scifi movie..warm blanket..and me chowing down on it

hahahahahahah..push push...or pull pull...haha


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@ dave..do you or any1 here know how to mod a 200mm fan..so it can run higher rpm than intended?
example a cm megaflo @ 700rpm..but push it to go 1500+rpm?


----------



## mus1mus

Depends on your willingness to modding.

1. Check the Hub/Motor Size. If you can find another fan that has higher rpm ratings than 700 rpm that has the same motor/hub dimension, you can switch them..

Did this with cheapos. I pulled the motor off an Aerocool Turbine and used it to another fan for the same reason, and, that Turbine blades make more noise per cfm than cheapo fans.. I succeed.

But that is if the motor gives you hint of being able to be pulled off. Might destroy the fan(s)

2. Involves winding.







(sucks) (might fry the drivers)

3. Involves Overvolting.







(might fry the drivers)


----------



## ozlay

does anyone know if a 100mm fan has the same hole placement as a 100mm vesa mount iv been thinking about adding a fan too my monitors?


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ozlay*
> 
> does anyone know if a 100mm fan has the same hole placement as a 100mm vesa mount iv been thinking about adding a fan too my monitors?


Kind of OT (I don't care though)

VESA Standard


Standard Fan Sizes:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_fan

How are you suppose to do that??


----------



## ozlay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> How are you suppose to do that??


nvm ill just get a 100mm to 120mm vesa mount converter and use a 120mm fan with it this way it can be a light up fan so not only it will cool my screens it will also add a nice light show


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Depends on your willingness to modding.
> 
> 1. Check the Hub/Motor Size. If you can find another fan that has higher rpm ratings than 700 rpm that has the same motor/hub dimension, you can switch them..
> 
> Did this with cheapos. I pulled the motor off an Aerocool Turbine and used it to another fan for the same reason, and, that Turbine blades make more noise per cfm than cheapo fans.. I succeed.
> 
> But that is if the motor gives you hint of being able to be pulled off. Might destroy the fan(s)
> 
> 2. Involves winding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (sucks) (might fry the drivers)
> 
> 3. Involves Overvolting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (might fry the drivers)


Yeah.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Iwamotto Tetsuz*
> 
> Delta fan thats a big no no for me
> its loud as hell it'll keep every one wakae if you operate your computer at night
> but if you want cooling then hell yeah at the expensise of your ears:thumb:


My rig is chockfull of deltas and it's quieter than most air rigs here


----------



## mus1mus

Yo @DaveLT

Found these for speed control. Easy-a-Breezy huh?

What do you thunk?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Yo @DaveLT
> 
> Found these for speed control. Easy-a-Breezy huh?
> 
> What do you thunk?


You can actually build your own PWM amplifier which consists of a single mosfet/transistor and nothing much else.

This 555 basic switching design is essentially what most standard fan controllers use. A filtering cap on the output and it's all good! To a certain extent power supplies are actually built like that in the past. The first "PWM Switching Mode power supplies"


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> You can actually build your own PWM amplifier which consists of a single mosfet/transistor and nothing much else.
> 
> This 555 basic switching design is essentially what most standard fan controllers use. A filtering cap on the output and it's all good! To a certain extent power supplies are actually built like that in the past. The first "PWM Switching Mode power supplies"


Yep, saw what you mean.. http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/so-you-want-pwm-control-of-your-new-cpu-fan.107135/

I'll try this one and if I can get proper control or automate things using software, will be good..

But I think manual controll is also important.

Thanks mate.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

well..not fond of messing stuff up..but ill rip fans up anytime...ive got :
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103072

but the 1000rpm version..i took it out due to it making a grr noise and found sticky/oily fluids on the blades..which was strange..had it 3 yrs..and only now had this issue..
and a stock black fan that came out of a haf932 case..the blades/hub is totaly unbalanced.user had it as top fan for 3yrs..pc ran almost 24/7..
then ive got a orange led aerocool fan that came with my case..still works..just the orange blades that tick me off a bit..
i dont use any of these 3.

@dave..ive got a bit of a twist..how can i get the cm blademasters to run in perfect harmony with my cmxtra flos?
i tried it exactly the same way as it was with just the xtra flos..
pwm/rpm from cpu fan header..and yes its true pwm..and 12v from psu..
everthing runs ok except:
the xtra flos run at correct speed @ 37% 1400+-rpm but the blades show that its @600rpm.
ive got it as:
1-y pwm gelid splitter>1 cm bladeM(pwm signal)>2-4*4pin pwm hubwm hooked up to other end of y splitter>12v from psu.
with 2 xtraflos
if i unplug the hub the bladM ramps up to correct speed..
the xtraflos are rated: [email protected] 12v
bladeM: [email protected] 12v


----------



## Ludus

Hi guys, thanks to Dave for the great tips and for the thread discussion.
I wish someone could give me some good advice for my config.

My current situation:

Corsair Air 540
Front radiator 240mm 45mm high fpi with push-pull configuration with corsair AF120 high performance @7v (about 1500 rpm) (intake fan)
Top radiator 240mm 60mm low fpi with push-pull configuration with corsair AF120 high performance @7v (about 1500 rpm) (exhaust fan)
Read fan 140mm included with case at full speed (should be like AF140 quiet edition) (exhaust fan)

yeah, i know that AF fan isn't the best for radiator but i owned it before to switch to full liquid (and before read this thread







)

Now i just ordered 4 CM jetflow (i can't find in italy delta fan) and i wish to switch the configuration in that way

Front radiator 240mm 45mm high fpi with push (cm) - pull (corsair) configuration with CM jetflow @7v (1600rpm) and corsair AF120 high performance @7v (1500 rpm) (intake fan)
Top radiator 240mm 60mm low fpi with push (cm) -pull (corsair) configuration with CM jetflow @7v (1600rpm) and corsair AF120 high performance @7v (1500 rpm) (intake fan)
Read fan 140mm included with case at full speed (should be like AF140 quiet edition) (exhaust fan)

I want to try this config for this reason:

1) i'm not satisfied with my current configuration. top radiator take hot air from front radiator and in long gaming session (>1h), the water increase his temperature by ten degree;
2) right now top radiator sucks hot air from front radiator;
3) the air 540 have a lot of grill, so creating a positve pressure inside the case should be positve for my aim (in this config the radiators work better).

Am i wrong ?

Thanks


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Iwamotto Tetsuz*
> 
> Delta fan thats a big no no for me
> its loud as hell it'll keep every one wakae if you operate your computer at night
> but if you want cooling then hell yeah at the expensise of your ears:thumb:


Uh, use a fan controller?


----------



## vlaint

What fan controller would be enough for an afb1212he? Bought 2 recently and now im looking for a fan controller to handle them. Any good quality fan controllers that wont cost too much and still be able to control them is appreciated.


----------



## ozlay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> What fan controller would be enough for an afb1212he? Bought 2 recently and now im looking for a fan controller to handle them. Any good quality fan controllers that wont cost too much and still be able to control them is appreciated.


edit: you fans are around 5w max i think most fan controllers will work


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> What fan controller would be enough for an afb1212he? Bought 2 recently and now im looking for a fan controller to handle them. Any good quality fan controllers that wont cost too much and still be able to control them is appreciated.


Logisys 6 channel









Give me some time boys to reply the rest. Kinda busy and taking the backburner these few days


----------



## tatmMRKIV

I need some help..

I ma getting some highend rads, either more GTX nemesis or 480 mayhems or a alphacool monsta
anyways I need some crazy fans to use on them and had it down to I guess these ones
not sure which to get
Scythe DFS123812H-3000
Delta fan AFB1212SH
AFB1212H-R00
AFB1212SHE-CF00

I want them sorta quiet when downtuned with a custom built pwm controller

I already have 8+ AFB1212SHE-4f1b but they only have 2black cables with the rest cut off so I am not sure I will be able to controll them like I want to


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> I need some help..
> 
> I ma getting some highend rads, either more GTX nemesis or 480 mayhems or a alphacool monsta
> anyways I need some crazy fans to use on them and had it down to I guess these ones
> not sure which to get
> Scythe DFS123812H-3000
> Delta fan AFB1212SH
> AFB1212H-R00
> AFB1212SHE-CF00
> 
> I want them sorta quiet when downtuned with a custom built pwm controller
> 
> I already have 8+ AFB1212SHE-4f1b but they only have 2black cables with the rest cut off so I am not sure I will be able to controll them like I want to


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Yep, saw what you mean.. http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/so-you-want-pwm-control-of-your-new-cpu-fan.107135/
> 
> I'll try this one and if I can get proper control or automate things using software, will be good..
> 
> But I think manual controll is also important.
> 
> Thanks mate.


Delta IMO.. Match the ones you have.

You can add something like the above. Or a fan controller. Same thing.. You just lack RPM readout.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

lamptrons fc5 v2/3 has 5-6channels of 30-50w output Per channel..itll easily handle these bad boys & any fan you throw at it..even 2 per channel...plus it gives you temp and rpm control..


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> lamptrons fc5 v2/3 has 5-6channels of 30-50w output Per channel..itll easily handle these bad boys & any fan you throw at it..even 2 per channel...plus it gives you temp and rpm control..


30 watts is the same as 2.5 amps at the 12 volt level, 50 watts is 4.17 amps. 30 watts per channel is kind of standard for the higher-end voltage fan controllers.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> well..not fond of messing stuff up..but ill rip fans up anytime...ive got :
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103072
> 
> but the 1000rpm version..i took it out due to it making a grr noise and found sticky/oily fluids on the blades..which was strange..had it 3 yrs..and only now had this issue..
> and a stock black fan that came out of a haf932 case..the blades/hub is totaly unbalanced.user had it as top fan for 3yrs..pc ran almost 24/7..
> then ive got a orange led aerocool fan that came with my case..still works..just the orange blades that tick me off a bit..
> i dont use any of these 3.
> 
> @dave..ive got a bit of a twist..how can i get the cm blademasters to run in perfect harmony with my cmxtra flos?
> i tried it exactly the same way as it was with just the xtra flos..
> pwm/rpm from cpu fan header..and yes its true pwm..and 12v from psu..
> everthing runs ok except:
> the xtra flos run at correct speed @ 37% 1400+-rpm but the blades show that its @600rpm.
> ive got it as:
> 1-y pwm gelid splitter>1 cm bladeM(pwm signal)>2-4*4pin pwm hubwm hooked up to other end of y splitter>12v from psu.
> with 2 xtraflos
> if i unplug the hub the bladM ramps up to correct speed..
> the xtraflos are rated: [email protected] 12v
> bladeM: [email protected] 12v


Either they are eating too much PWM current or your mobo isn't working well or it hasn't got enough PWM current anyway.... That's all there is to it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> I need some help..
> 
> I ma getting some highend rads, either more GTX nemesis or 480 mayhems or a alphacool monsta
> anyways I need some crazy fans to use on them and had it down to I guess these ones
> not sure which to get
> Scythe DFS123812H-3000
> Delta fan AFB1212SH
> AFB1212H-R00
> AFB1212SHE-CF00
> 
> I want them sorta quiet when downtuned with a custom built pwm controller
> 
> I already have 8+ AFB1212SHE-4f1b but they only have 2black cables with the rest cut off so I am not sure I will be able to controll them like I want to


Throw the scythe out







AFB1212SHE probably, only if it's cheap.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ludus*
> 
> Hi guys, thanks to Dave for the great tips and for the thread discussion.
> I wish someone could give me some good advice for my config.
> 
> My current situation:
> 
> Corsair Air 540
> Front radiator 240mm 45mm high fpi with push-pull configuration with corsair AF120 high performance @7v (about 1500 rpm) (intake fan)
> Top radiator 240mm 60mm low fpi with push-pull configuration with corsair AF120 high performance @7v (about 1500 rpm) (exhaust fan)
> Read fan 140mm included with case at full speed (should be like AF140 quiet edition) (exhaust fan)
> 
> yeah, i know that AF fan isn't the best for radiator but i owned it before to switch to full liquid (and before read this thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Now i just ordered 4 CM jetflow (i can't find in italy delta fan) and i wish to switch the configuration in that way
> 
> Front radiator 240mm 45mm high fpi with push (cm) - pull (corsair) configuration with CM jetflow @7v (1600rpm) and corsair AF120 high performance @7v (1500 rpm) (intake fan)
> Top radiator 240mm 60mm low fpi with push (cm) -pull (corsair) configuration with CM jetflow @7v (1600rpm) and corsair AF120 high performance @7v (1500 rpm) (intake fan)
> Read fan 140mm included with case at full speed (should be like AF140 quiet edition) (exhaust fan)
> 
> I want to try this config for this reason:
> 
> 1) i'm not satisfied with my current configuration. top radiator take hot air from front radiator and in long gaming session (>1h), the water increase his temperature by ten degree;
> 2) right now top radiator sucks hot air from front radiator;
> 3) the air 540 have a lot of grill, so creating a positve pressure inside the case should be positve for my aim (in this config the radiators work better).
> 
> Am i wrong ?
> 
> Thanks


It's a JetFlo not a jetflow








Ugh no, push pull with dissimilar fans just serve to make performance as good as the weakest fan.
1)Well everyone does it that way, reason being that by the time the hot air comes out of from the front rad it should be able to cool down enough before it gets to the top rad a benefit of water cooling.
2)Why not? I do it myself too, rather than pushing all the hot air from the top on the mobo
3) Set the rear fan as an intake.


----------



## Ludus

Thank you for the reply.

So do you suggest:

Front radiator (high fpi) with 4xCM JetFlow (







) push-pull (intake)
Top radiator (low fpi) with 4xCorsair AF120 push-pull (exhaust)
Read 1x140 (intake)

Maybe i could add one 120/140 on bottom if could be useful.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ludus*
> 
> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> So do you suggest:
> 
> Front radiator (high fpi) with 4xCM JetFlow (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) push-pull (intake)
> Top radiator (low fpi) with 4xCorsair AF120 push-pull (exhaust)
> Read 1x140 (intake)
> 
> Maybe i could add one 120/140 on bottom if could be useful.


JETFLO!








Yeah. Actually do push jetflos on both rads and leave the AF120 alone.
No bottom filter if you're not aware.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

id say push pull on both rads..having identical fans are best for rads..it ensures that theres an even amount of airflo being pushed thru at identical speeds..identical airflo= best results..if you really want those spesific fans..use shrouds on the push side..helps a great deal for streamlined airflo path..keeping any air from escaping in the wrong direction
example...i had a h60 mod to my gpu..two fans..max load was 35-47..i added a shroud to the push fan..temps went down to max 43..
so itll help a bit..

hi dave..i have a theory its because the fans arent identical..the cm xtra flo fans are higher amps than the blademasters..cause at the moment the first fan is an xtraflo thats giving the rpm/pwm signal to the 4pin pwm hubs two fans on the 1st rad..also xtraflos..
the xtraflos use double the amount of power vs the blademaster..
x: dc 12v 0.70A
blade: dc12v 0.37A
if i unplug the xtra flos..the bladeM runs correctly..but plug them back in and its not correct..so in theory to me its because their not identical fans..

either way..their just sitting here now..in their packaging..


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> id say push pull on both rads..having identical fans are best for rads..it ensures that theres an even amount of airflo being pushed thru at identical speeds..identical airflo= best results..if you really want those spesific fans..use shrouds on the push side..helps a great deal for streamlined airflo path..keeping any air from escaping in the wrong direction
> example...i had a h60 mod to my gpu..two fans..max load was 35-47..i added a shroud to the push fan..temps went down to max 43..
> so itll help a bit..
> 
> hi dave..i have a theory its because the fans arent identical..the cm xtra flo fans are higher amps than the blademasters..cause at the moment the first fan is an xtraflo thats giving the rpm/pwm signal to the 4pin pwm hubs two fans on the 1st rad..also xtraflos..
> the xtraflos use double the amount of power vs the blademaster..
> x: dc 12v 0.70A
> blade: dc12v 0.37A
> if i unplug the xtra flos..the bladeM runs correctly..but plug them back in and its not correct..so in theory to me its because their not identical fans..
> 
> either way..their just sitting here now..in their packaging..


There are no cut and dried rules for push-pull and stacked fan configurations, they all have exceptions. "Fans that are close or the same, will give the best all-around performance". I say "all-around" because some odd set ups will perform well only in specific speed ranges; before and after that point, one of the fans is useless. The only way to tell is to test; if an additional fan yields little to no improve in temps at the performance level in which they are needed, why waste the resources. Warning: If the difference between the fans is too great, the weak fan can be over-driven and wear excessively fast. The exception here is, this depends on whether the obstruction's applied load significantly reduces the air flow of the strongest fan.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

She is not cheap but cheaper than they who shall not be named

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LLYY1WM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AFAV9UH4C3F3C
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XJLOG8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1JDVQBTNMED4K
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MHSYZPO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1JDVQBTNMED4K

really it depends on how many I need. I can just do pull with Black Ice nemesis rads right?
those are the 3 I have it narrowed down to


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> She is not cheap but cheaper than they who shall not be named
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LLYY1WM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AFAV9UH4C3F3C
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XJLOG8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1JDVQBTNMED4K
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MHSYZPO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1JDVQBTNMED4K
> 
> really it depends on how many I need. I can just do pull with Black Ice nemesis rads right?
> those are the 3 I have it narrowed down to


Figure out what server has the fans you want and just buy the fan module for it off eBay, usually you can get a bunch of fans for $8 a fan or so.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

PFC1212DE
good enough? I have 3 of these as well..
and I can actually find them for sale


----------



## mus1mus

If you want to use them for a high FPI rad, I'd say pick the 38mms. Higher Static Pressure.. Add a shroud, perfect.. You can still run them at lower speed thus more silent..

Push-Pull increases Static Pressure in between them fans. Not Airflow. Very helpful when you want your fans spinning at low speeds.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

luckily I was able to grab 30 for 175 so push pull it is
and all the exact same 3.24amp model.
so I got 33 of those total.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181279528826
and with the money I saved I can buy fangrills so I can keep all my fingers!

thanks for all of your guys' help


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> luckily I was able to grab 30 for 175 so push pull it is
> and all the exact same 3.24amp model.
> so I got 33 of those total.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181279528826
> and with the money I saved I can buy fangrills so I can keep all my fingers!
> 
> thanks for all of your guys' help


Haven't been following the whole Convo but if your getting them what are you trying to get negative temps at the price of silent?? 66db? Is it nessisary to have that much airflow? All the servers ived heard sound like and dang jet taking off....or is it a server trying to cool??


----------



## mus1mus

That was quick..

















Good luck with the build..









EDIT:

One thing to note though, they have bigger hubs which means BIGGER dead-spots. Thus the shroud advise.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ldewitt*
> 
> Haven't been following the whole Convo but if your getting them what are you trying to get negative temps at the price of silent?? 66db? Is it nessisary to have that much airflow? All the servers ived heard sound like and dang jet taking off....or is it a server trying to cool??


You can quiet them down if you don't know that already.


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> You can quiet them down if you don't know that already.


I suppose unleash the power when needed lollol

Maybe I should of not got the sp120s lol quiet edition for that matter


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> That was quick..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with the build..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> One thing to note though, they have bigger hubs which means BIGGER dead-spots. Thus the shroud advise.


ok, I will try and grab some shrouds too than.
they are the same size as the other hubs she fans I have though.

but yeah on the noise thing.. I am doing a custom PWM controller for the volume. I just figure I can pull off quite a bit more static pressure with these at 50% than I can pull on any retail fan with full force.

then when I want to bench I can turn on the choppers

also I got these for roughly 8$ a fan, I can deal with a little noise for 8$ a fan


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ldewitt*
> 
> I suppose unleash the power when needed lollol
> 
> Maybe I should of not got the sp120s lol quiet edition for that matter


Mainly, the point of having high speed fans is that you will have more headroom.

On water cooling, you can lower the temp delta (air-water). Especially if you dont have enough rad space.

Bencher's goal of sort. Normally, you're fine with low speed fans.

Looks also matter to some. But these Deltas offer you industrial grade durability.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> ok, I will try and grab some shrouds too than.
> they are the same size as the other hubs she fans I have though.
> 
> but yeah on the noise thing.. I am doing a custom PWM controller for the volume. I just figure I can pull off quite a bit more static pressure with these at 50% than I can pull on any retail fan with full force.
> 
> then when I want to bench I can turn on the choppers
> 
> also I got these for roughly 8$ a fan, I can deal with a little noise for 8$ a fan


Yep good point.

Shrouds also improve on noise..


----------



## tatmMRKIV

What do you guys recommend for control? I am having difficulty figuring out how to adequately power 30 3.24A fans?
Just a few of the the swiftech 8way pwm dongles, wiring the fans with a 4 pin pwm according to that previous post, and hooking up to a high watt fan controller work? Like the lamptron cf525 or what kind do i need?


----------



## mus1mus

You can try looking for that PWM, and the RPM Sensor Wires.

Power the Fan with 12V using a Molex or so. Connect the PWM and RPM to the Mobo Header. Try if you can control them speed.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

if youre looking for full software and manual control...ive heard good things about the aqauro controllers..im saving up for a lamptron....
cant wait to c your build log..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> id say push pull on both rads..having identical fans are best for rads..it ensures that theres an even amount of airflo being pushed thru at identical speeds..identical airflo= best results..if you really want those spesific fans..use shrouds on the push side..helps a great deal for streamlined airflo path..keeping any air from escaping in the wrong direction
> example...i had a h60 mod to my gpu..two fans..max load was 35-47..i added a shroud to the push fan..temps went down to max 43..
> so itll help a bit..
> 
> hi dave..i have a theory its because the fans arent identical..the cm xtra flo fans are higher amps than the blademasters..cause at the moment the first fan is an xtraflo thats giving the rpm/pwm signal to the 4pin pwm hubs two fans on the 1st rad..also xtraflos..
> the xtraflos use double the amount of power vs the blademaster..
> x: dc 12v 0.70A
> blade: dc12v 0.37A
> if i unplug the xtra flos..the bladeM runs correctly..but plug them back in and its not correct..so in theory to me its because their not identical fans..
> 
> either way..their just sitting here now..in their packaging..


Push-pull is simply not necessary, it's just to eke out a bit more performance for double the noise, I would get a higher static pressure fan to begin with.

Nope electronics don't work that way, they are all in PARALLEL and not series so they don't care what another fan is drawing from the socket.
Fact is, I have a CM Jetflo 140 and a 120 as well as a Delta AFB0612EH on the same PWM plug and they all run normally
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> What do you guys recommend for control? I am having difficulty figuring out how to adequately power 30 3.24A fans?
> Just a few of the the swiftech 8way pwm dongles, wiring the fans with a 4 pin pwm according to that previous post, and hooking up to a high watt fan controller work? Like the lamptron cf525 or what kind do i need?


What sort of build that requires 30 PFC1212DEs ... Another warning about those 3.24 PFC1212DEs are that they cannot be undervolted OR do they have functioning RPM signal. The most I would use in my rigs is a AFB1212SHE, that's the end.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> What do you guys recommend for control? I am having difficulty figuring out how to adequately power 30 3.24A fans?
> Just a few of the the swiftech 8way pwm dongles, wiring the fans with a 4 pin pwm according to that previous post, and hooking up to a high watt fan controller work? Like the lamptron cf525 or what kind do i need?



If they are PWM fans: Run pins 1 and 2 to a 12 volt lines coming from the power supply. If you have more than one fan, only one can connect to pin 3 (RPM sensor) on the header. On Pin 4, all fans go to the PWM fan header on the motherboard. This is how the swiftech is wired.
If they are voltage controlled fans, you will need to buy some controllers that handle at least 40watts per channel for each fan.
If you do not need to control them, connect them to 12 volt lines coming from the power supply
Dave said that he would not use this fan, and I agree, but he did not say why. I like powerful fans, but a 3.24Amp fan in a computer is over the deep end. The idea behind using a PWM 38 mm thick fan, is the larger blade size and powerful motor lets it move lots of air and have great static pressure, even at the lower RPMs we normally use them at. If the motor is too large, to make room for a motor that is so big ( 3.24Amp), this takes away from the large fan blade size that we prize so highly. We like PWM 38 mm thick fans, that are around 1 to 2 amps because they have a good balance of motor and blade size, and the PWM makes them more controllable and easier to wire into the system.

The world is full of things that have a performance curve that nearly flat lines at higher performance levels. Fan air flow volumes get to a point to where further increases provide almost no additional benefit. As case fans, when the flow through the case is fast enough to where no hot air is being recirculated through the coolers inside the case, faster flow than that is useless. As a cooler fan, a 3.24Amp fan can move air so fast through the cooler that the flow creates friction and heat. This is counter productive. A 3.24Amp fan is extreme overkill for a computer; this can be done, but why would you want to?

The Lamptron cf525 is a voltage controller, and will not work with Swiftech 8way PWM controller because you will have massive wattage problems. 30 fans x 12volts x 3.24Amps = 1166.4watts, use a really big power supply and manage the power. For that many fans, If you use PWM control, you will need an amplifier to boost the current of the PWM signal. With 30 fans that strong, you should be able to hover the computer around the room.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> What do you guys recommend for control? I am having difficulty figuring out how to adequately power 30 3.24A fans?
> Just a few of the the swiftech 8way pwm dongles, wiring the fans with a 4 pin pwm according to that previous post, and hooking up to a high watt fan controller work? Like the lamptron cf525 or what kind do i need?


[/quote]
I love using PWM but you will most likely need to boost the signal power for that many fans.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Push-pull is simply not necessary, it's just to eke out a bit more performance for double the noise, I would get a higher static pressure fan to begin with.
> 
> Nope electronics don't work that way, they are all in PARALLEL and not series so they don't care what another fan is drawing from the socket.
> Fact is, I have a CM Jetflo 140 and a 120 as well as a Delta AFB0612EH on the same PWM plug and they all run .


Using 2 fans instead of 1 does not double the noise .. not in dBA or how loud they sound to our ears. .
# of fans -- dBA increase.
1 fan ` = 0 dBA
2 fans ` = 3.0
3 fans ` = 4.8
4 fans ` = 6.0
5 fans ` = 7.0
6 fans ` = 7.8
7 fans ` = 8.5
8 fans ` = 9.0
9 fans ` = 9.5
10 fans = 10.0
12 fans = 10.8
16 fans = 12.0
20 fans = 13.0
Every 10dBA increase sounds twice as loud to human ear. Most people can't hear the difference of 2dBA, but can 3dBA
One 40dBA fan is 40dBA, 2 are 43.01dBA, 3 are 44.77dBA, 5 are 46.989dBA, 10 are 49.997dBA, 20 are 53dBA, 30 are 54.8dBA


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> What do you guys recommend for control? I am having difficulty figuring out how to adequately power 30 3.24A fans?
> Just a few of the the swiftech 8way pwm dongles, wiring the fans with a 4 pin pwm according to that previous post, and hooking up to a high watt fan controller work? Like the lamptron cf525 or what kind do i need?


did you say 30x 3.24A fans?








you Sir, are a genuine OCF member









so, is it 30x Delta PFC1212DE?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> did you say 30x 3.24A fans?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you Sir, are a genuine OCF member
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so, is it 30x Delta PFC1212DE?


tatmMRKIV
Please post pictures of this rig, we'd love to see it.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> tatmMRKIV
> Please post pictures of this rig, we'd love to see it.


yes, I'd love to see how the wiring get done


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> did you say 30x 3.24A fans?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you Sir, are a genuine OCF member
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so, is it 30x Delta PFC1212DE?


Even I don't have that much fan power combined together








but my PFR0812XHE corrupts absolutely and completely... Your ear included







I'm not kidding ... It's loud beyond belief. Apart from the 200mm 8000rpm san ace fan that I bet some factory has it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Dave said that he would not use this fan, and I agree, but he did not say why. I like powerful fans, but a 3.24Amp fan in a computer is over the deep end. The idea behind using a PWM 38 mm thick fan, is the larger blade size and powerful motor lets it move lots of air and have great static pressure, even at the lower RPMs we normally use them at. If the motor is too large, to make room for a motor that is so big ( 3.24Amp), this takes away from the large fan blade size that we prize so highly. We like PWM 38 mm thick fans, that are around 1 to 2 amps because they have a good balance of motor and blade size, and the PWM makes them more controllable and easier to wire into the system.
> 
> The world is full of things that have a performance curve that nearly flat lines at higher performance levels. Fan air flow volumes get to a point to where further increases provide almost no additional benefit. As case fans, when the flow through the case is fast enough to where no hot air is being recirculated through the coolers inside the case, faster flow than that is useless. As a cooler fan, a 3.24Amp fan can move air so fast through the cooler that the flow creates friction and heat. This is counter productive. A 3.24Amp fan is extreme overkill for a computer; this can be done, but why would you want to?
> With 30 fans that strong, you should be able to hover the computer around the room.


A 3.24amp fan that is actually 4.8amp but with controlled startup for the 3.24amp model. This is what I meant about a fan actually pulling less power once it's running. A PWM fan doesn't play hopscotch mind you.
You didn't understand any of that ... A 38mm fan is actually designed for high speed in the first place so it's already got as much space you can stuff into it for a motor. Apart from the stator vanes which are very useful for a rad, which makes no need for a shroud anymore.

Why do ya think some servers come spec'd with these? Air cannot create heat and friction unless it's moving so fast it's supersonic. 255cfm 1.4inch static pressure supersonic? I doubt.
I thought 1 was enough to make my E-D5 Aluminium mATX case hover around the room


----------



## tatmMRKIV

yeah well It was mostly the price point. ( i couldn't find the other fans for less than 20-25 a piece)

and I measured the hub with my caliper and its the same 60mm that the other 2A fan I have is.the holder isn't 60mm but the fan hub is

well what I was figureing was I could use the swiftechs to distribute the power more evenly, then use their controller pin that you'd hook up to the mobo for a channel on the fan controller and use the fan controller to make speed adjustments

So then if those are my plans, what fan controller would you reccommend? or am I just better off making my own PWM controller for this application

all the fans I got should be 4pin + - pwn and tach

I have a 1300 G2 for just my cooling section(I got it for 4way sli 780ti cards but decided to only keep 2 and wait for the 880s)

My main build item is showing up today then I will let you know the big secret but untill then its a secret

well I was gonna grab some dimastech radiator shrouds if they fit the rads I got

but once you see the build it'll sort of make sense...
basically I needed 30 fans in push pull and these were the most powerful and economical

but does the fan have these "stator vanes which are very useful for a rad" you speak of?

also how thick a shroud, could I get away with a 3mm rubber gasket or do I need a real shroud? 10MM + no rubber gasket situation


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> yeah well It was mostly the price point. ( i couldn't find the other fans for less than 20-25 a piece)
> 
> and I measured the hub with my caliper and its the same 60mm that the other 2A fan I have is.the holder isn't 60mm but the fan hub is
> 
> well what I was figureing was I could use the swiftechs to distribute the power more evenly, then use their controller pin that you'd hook up to the mobo for a channel on the fan controller and use the fan controller to make speed adjustments
> 
> So then if those are my plans, what fan controller would you reccommend? or am I just better off making my own PWM controller for this application
> 
> all the fans I got should be 4pin + - pwn and tach
> 
> I have a 1300 G2 for just my cooling section(I got it for 4way sli 780ti cards but decided to only keep 2 and wait for the 880s)
> 
> My main build item is showing up today then I will let you know the big secret but untill then its a secret
> 
> well I was gonna grab some dimastech radiator shrouds if they fit the rads I got
> 
> but once you see the build it'll sort of make sense...
> basically I needed 30 fans in push pull and these were the most powerful and economical
> 
> but does the fan have these "stator vanes which are very useful for a rad" you speak of?
> 
> also how thick a shroud, could I get away with a 3mm rubber gasket or do I need a real shroud? 10MM + no rubber gasket situation


I frankly think it's a waste of time and money, extreme waste of money because keep in mind these fans will spin up to full speed when they are first turned out. Pulling a grand 3.24amps per fan and you'll need a like 10 indy cables because a single molex can carry 10amps and I won't bet on anymore.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

fine then I returned it

so now I have no fans for my build


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> fine then I returned it
> 
> so now I have no fans for my build


Get AFB1212SHEs!
Don't fret over the pfc1212des
http://cwc-group.com/afb1212sh5c54.html
http://cwc-group.com/afb1212she5j1n.html

http://cwc-group.com/nmb4712cofan.html
http://cwc-group.com/nm4712cofap4.html


----------



## tatmMRKIV

they are ridiculously expensive though and I still can't control them

only affordable ones have low stats that make them less desirable than the bgear bblaster 120s I already use.. and 2x as much

yeah its gonna be 350 for 22 fans

so I gotta ask how are those PFCs a ridiculous waste of money when I got 30 for 170?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> A 38mm fan is actually designed for high speed in the first place so it's already got as much space you can stuff into it for a motor. Apart from the stator vanes which are very useful for a rad, which makes no need for a shroud anymore.



The blades are small on this fan when compare to a 1.3 amp Delta
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Why do ya think some servers come spec'd with these? Air cannot create heat and friction unless it's moving so fast it's supersonic. 255cfm 1.4inch static pressure supersonic? I doubt.
> I thought 1 was enough to make my E-D5 Aluminium mATX case hover around the room


"Heating is really only significant when you get a shock wave i.e. above the speed of sound" *True*
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/43768/after-what-speed-air-friction-starts-to-heat-up-an-object
"Air cannot create heat and friction unless it's moving so fast it's supersonic". *Not true*. I can give many examples.
The air nozzle on my compressor gets hot when I blow a computer out, the air coming out of the nozzle is not supersonic.
Put two fingers tight together point blank in front of the air compressor nozzle and pull the trigger, the cold air coming out will burn you fingers.
I do admit that the amount of heat is almost not worth mentioning' but my point is, there is such a thing as air flow that is too fast.
Anything past the top of the performance curve is a waste.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> they are ridiculously expensive though and I still can't control them
> 
> only affordable ones have low stats that make them less desirable than the bgear bblaster 120s I already use.. and 2x as much
> 
> yeah its gonna be 350 for 22 fans
> 
> so I gotta ask how are those PFCs a ridiculous waste of money when I got 30 for 170?


Dave is brisk sometimes, but his goal is to help you.
Its only a good deal if you need them.
Tell us more about what you are doing.
What case are you putting these fans in?
Why do you need so many?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> 
> The blades are small on this fan when compare to a 1.3 amp Delta
> "Heating is really only significant when you get a shock wave i.e. above the speed of sound" True
> http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/43768/after-what-speed-air-friction-starts-to-heat-up-an-object
> "Air cannot create heat and friction unless it's moving so fast it's supersonic". Not true.
> I do admit that the amount of heat is almost not worth mentioning' but my point is, there is such a thing as air flow that is too fast.
> Anything past the top of the performance curve is a waste.


It's the same size as a AFB1212SHE dude.

I'm the one with a box full of delta fans, how would I not know?

Are you suggesting server manufacturers don't know better than you do? Try the Dell R720







And nobody runs their fans at full speed unless it's so incredibly low it isn't useful at all.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> they are ridiculously expensive though and I still can't control them
> 
> only affordable ones have low stats that make them less desirable than the bgear bblaster 120s I already use.. and 2x as much
> 
> yeah its gonna be 350 for 22 fans
> 
> so I gotta ask how are those PFCs a ridiculous waste of money when I got 30 for 170?


Try ebay








Sorry bgear blasters are nonsensical badly built overspecced heap of garbage. This is not my first time saying it and i don't think it'll be my last.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Even I don't have that much fan power combined together
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but my PFR0812XHE corrupts absolutely and completely... Your ear included
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not kidding ... It's loud beyond belief. Apart from the 200mm 8000rpm san ace fan that I bet some factory has it.


re-watching your youtube PFR's noise stings to my ear too








it's like FFB0412SHN, only with mmmmmuuuuuuuuuuuuachhhhhh sopranos on it









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> they are ridiculously expensive though and I still can't control them
> 
> only affordable ones have low stats that make them less desirable than the bgear bblaster 120s I already use.. and 2x as much
> 
> yeah its gonna be 350 for 22 fans
> 
> so I gotta ask how are those PFCs a ridiculous waste of money when I got 30 for 170?


you must build your own fan controller for the 3.24A version of the PFC.
it had reverse PWM control, which means if you connect the 4th wire to the mobo it'll run slower when your CPU runs hotter

to cheer you up,
here's a friend controlling 5 of his 3.24A PFC, 5 of them actually only draw 8.6A on their full speed (instead of 15+).
but it might go worse if the bearings got worn out or something else happen.





well, you can make money by selling those PFC.
it would surely an overkill to use them on push-pull config

as for these kind of fans, you want their better lower rpm coverage range


----------



## tatmMRKIV

so you say but I have had 6 or so for a year and a half without any issues. and I have had them side by side Corsair SP120s with no discernible difference

but I mean thats all relative. so what is your reasoning that the bgears blow badly?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-6-Dell-JC915-Cooling-Fans-w-C9857-Enclosures-For-Dell-PowerEdge-Servers/371136099440?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D24351%26meid%3D3c6839af0c8547889b4efd40bea6acd0%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D10335%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D361041430988&rt=nc
will these work? I cant find any she fans in severs or any ones labeled as afb1212sh for less than they were at CDW

I might go back and grab the 3.24A fans if that's really all it would take..
its cheaper to fully configure those fans than it is to just buy the AFB1212sh series

4 rads 3 nemesis GTX and one TFC xchanger 360 (its really high flow so I am gonna use it instead of replacing it with another nemesis)
2 480 one 360
maybe one nemesis and 2 480Mayhems if I can but probably just doing the nemsis GTX rads

Literally the surprise is gonna be here in a few hours

just think about what you can cram 2 360 rads and 2 480 rads in simultaneously that follows my ridiculous spending habits the build shouldn't be too hard to figure out

I was hoping that I'd have a magic carpet of sorts ith all the PFC fans at full power


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> 4 rads 3 nemesis GTX and one TFC xchanger 360 (its really high flow so I am gonna use it instead of replacing it with another nemesis)
> 2 480 one 360
> maybe one nemesis and 2 480Mayhems if I can but probably just doing the nemsis GTX rads
> 
> Literally the surprise is gonna be here in a few hours
> 
> just think about what you can cram 2 360 rads and 2 480 rads in simultaneously that follows my ridiculous spending habits the build shouldn't be too hard to figure out
> 
> I was hoping that I'd have a magic carpet of sorts ith all the PFC fans at full power


I can't help to think what're gonna do with the other 2?








and you've made me draw that on a piece of paper towel, BTW


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It's the same size as a AFB1212SHE dude.
> I'm the one with a box full of delta fans, how would I not know?
> Are you suggesting server manufacturers don't know better than you do? Try the Dell R720
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And nobody runs their fans at full speed unless it's so incredibly low it isn't useful at all.




This 1.6 amp fan has deeper and bigger blades at a more agressive pitch, this fan will do much better at slower speeds.
I do agree that the motors are a similar size.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> I can't help to think what're gonna do with the other 2?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and you've made me draw that on a piece of paper towel, BTW


exhaust holes or spares incase some fans are defective or damaged.

I dunno how I am going to set up pressures. I havent had a closed computer case for a while
probably use the tfc as exhaust

I dunno I flat out can't afford 350$ worth of fans let alone 350+ controll


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> 
> 
> This 1.6 amp fan has deeper and bigger blades at a more agressive pitch, this fan will do much better at slower speeds.
> I do agree that the motors are a similar size.


The PFC1212DE doesn't have a wide spread pattern of a normal fan mind you







For air cooling stator vane fans are absolutely unbeaten and ... maybe even on rads.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> so you say but I have had 6 or so for a year and a half without any issues. and I have had them side by side Corsair SP120s with no discernible difference
> 
> but I mean thats all relative. so what is your reasoning that the bgears blow badly?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-6-Dell-JC915-Cooling-Fans-w-C9857-Enclosures-For-Dell-PowerEdge-Servers/371136099440?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D24351%26meid%3D3c6839af0c8547889b4efd40bea6acd0%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D10335%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D361041430988&rt=nc
> will these work? I cant find any she fans in severs or any ones labeled as afb1212sh for less than they were at CDW
> 
> I might go back and grab the 3.24A fans if that's really all it would take..
> its cheaper to fully configure those fans than it is to just buy the AFB1212sh series
> 
> 4 rads 3 nemesis GTX and one TFC xchanger 360 (its really high flow so I am gonna use it instead of replacing it with another nemesis)
> 2 480 one 360
> maybe one nemesis and 2 480Mayhems if I can but probably just doing the nemsis GTX rads
> 
> Literally the surprise is gonna be here in a few hours
> 
> just think about what you can cram 2 360 rads and 2 480 rads in simultaneously that follows my ridiculous spending habits the build shouldn't be too hard to figure out
> 
> I was hoping that I'd have a magic carpet of sorts ith all the PFC fans at full power


Heres a few server fan lots you can look at, things to search for are "Server Fan Tray"

*individually sold AFB1212HHE*
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Server-Fan-FPP3FAN3W-120x38mm-Delta-AFB1212HHE-D17917-001-120mm-38mm-12V-/321387865796?pt=US_Server_Fans_Cooling_Systems&hash=item4ad435a6c4

Couldn't find any definitive auctions for the AFB1212HHE server fan trays/lots

You could also try here: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/AFB1212HHE-120x120x38mm-Delta-DC-fan-spot_1126393776.html

Here are some other ideas

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-6-HP-Proliant-DL580-G5-System-Fans-443266-001-/111346949275?pt=US_Server_Fans_Cooling_Systems&hash=item19eccb9c9b
*PFC1212DE*

_Air Flow 252.8 CFM (7.16m³/min)
Static Pressure 1.412 in H2O (351.7 Pa)
Bearing Type Ball
Fan Type Tubeaxial
Features PWM Control; Speed Sensor (Tach)
Noise 66.5 dB(A)
Power (Watts) 48W
_

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-6-HP-Proliant-DL580-G4-FAN-364517-001-full-set-fans-for-server-/130915787403?pt=US_Server_Fans_Cooling_Systems&hash=item1e7b30628b
*TFC1212DE*

_Delta TFC1212DE-SP07 (PWM Speed Control)
Dimensions: 120x120x38 MM
Voltage: DC 12V
Current: 3.9A
Speed: 5500 RPM
Air Flow: 252 CFM
Noise: 66 dBA
Bearing: Ball
Feature: Speed Sensor (Tach Output) PWM Speed Control
Mounting Style: Fangle Type
Termination: 4-Pin / 4-Wire_

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CISCO-800-21732-04-Catalyst-4506-Fan-Tray-w-DC-Brushless-Cooling-Fan-EFB1212HHF-/131225468119?pt=US_Server_Fans_Cooling_Systems&hash=item1e8da5bcd7
*EFB1212HHF*
_DC Fan Ball Bearing 12V 0.51A 6.12W 3800RPM 120.07CFM 50.5dB Flange Mount_

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cisco-Systems-Catalyst-4006-4-Fan-Assembly-Tray-Model-WFB1212H-/361041194898?pt=US_Server_Fans_Cooling_Systems&hash=item540fbb6f92
*WFB1212H*

_Delta WFB1212H-BF05 (F00 with Connector Plug)_
_Dimensions: 120x120x25.4 MM
Voltage: DC 12V
Operating Voltage: DC 7V ~ 13.8V
Current: 0.36A, (Max. 0.45A)
Input Power: 4.32W
Speed: 2470 RPM
Air Flow: 86.5 CFM
Noise: 37.6 dBA
Bearing: Dual Ball
Feature: Speed Sensor (Tach Output)
Termination: 3-wire / 12-Inch
_


----------



## tatmMRKIV

http://www.ebay.com/itm/fb-0-Lot-of-4-Sanyo-Denki-Brushless-DC-San-Ace-Server-Fans-48V-109R1248H1011-/111278580833?pt=US_Computer_Case_Fans&hash=item19e8b86461

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-10-Used-SUNON-KD1212PMS1-6A-Server-Square-Fan-/151099146770?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232e360212

http://www.ebay.com/itm/case-server-fan-lot-17-Multicomp-MC19684-115v-Thermactive-RAH1238B1-220v-/121327650722?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3fb107a2

everything I can find is just too high amps or cfm or no cfm or no fan size or just too small...

SO I guess I will just get http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212sh5c54.html
because I don't need a radiator shroud with these so it saves money?


----------



## Crouch

Subbed


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/fb-0-Lot-of-4-Sanyo-Denki-Brushless-DC-San-Ace-Server-Fans-48V-109R1248H1011-/111278580833?pt=US_Computer_Case_Fans&hash=item19e8b86461
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-10-Used-SUNON-KD1212PMS1-6A-Server-Square-Fan-/151099146770?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232e360212
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/case-server-fan-lot-17-Multicomp-MC19684-115v-Thermactive-RAH1238B1-220v-/121327650722?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3fb107a2
> 
> everything I can find is just too high amps or cfm or no cfm or no fan size or just too small...
> 
> SO I guess I will just get http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212sh5c54.html
> because I don't need a radiator shroud with these so it saves money?


You could try this: https://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/Blowers-Fans/DC-Fans/102-CFM-12VDC-SAN-ACE-FAN-16-1445.axd

Buy more than you need, maybe 1/4 of them are duds? I bought 4, 3 worked perfectly 1 had a dying bearing. Oil didn't revive it. I recommend oiling all of them even the ones that work just to be on the safe side.

These are good fans. Its the same as an H1011.


----------



## Iwamotto Tetsuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @ dave..do you or any1 here know how to mod a 200mm fan..so it can run higher rpm than intended?
> example a cm megaflo @ 700rpm..but push it to go 1500+rpm?


You can do that easily by pushing voltage from 12V-16 or 18V
Or bolting on 5-10 of the same fans and all of it will spin faster
if you have 2fans runing at 700RPM it will generate the same amount of airflow at 1400RPM -10%-20% air flow loss


----------



## X-PREDATOR

not what i had in mind..im thinking more along the lines of using two power pcbs and join them together to force the fan to go double the speed..was just a silly idea anyhow..

dave you seem more knowledgeble than me..how can i convert a 3pin power logic gpu fan into a 4pin pwm fan?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> ..how can i convert a 3pin power logic gpu fan into a 4pin pwm fan?


You would need to add a transistor to the 3 pin fan.
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/so-you-want-pwm-control-of-your-new-cpu-fan.107135/


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> how can i convert a 3pin power logic gpu fan into a 4pin pwm fan?


so, you want to control a 4pin pwm fan from a 3pin gpu fan header?

just plug the power rail of that fan straight to the gpu fan header, then.
it will regulate speed according to the voltage being applied to the fan.
do pay attention to the power rating of the fan, though.

and to make that 200mm fan spinning faster.
you can always feed a 2x 9v batteries to the fan.
that way, you can save your time and efforts.
a quick test like this will be able to let you see how the fan will behave,
and you can tell latter on if the noise were acceptable and the fan can cope with the higher voltage level applied to it


----------



## X-PREDATOR

i want to use a 3pin gpu fan from this

http://www.gigabyte.co.za/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3935#ov

on my gtx560 ...along with current aio mod..

ok thanks guys..


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> i want to use a 3pin gpu fan from this
> 
> http://www.gigabyte.co.za/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3935#ov
> 
> on my gtx560 ...along with current aio mod..
> 
> ok thanks guys..


Just in case you don't know, the graphics card's has a built-in adjustable fan speed controller.
It is a utility that gives you control of the graphics card's fan speed and the "GPU and memory" clock.
It fits very snugly, right into the NVIDIA Driver as a new tab called "performance".

Go here
http://www.nvidia.com/object/nvidia-system-tools-6.08-driver.html
On that page , down load the NVIDIA System Tools.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

i know this ..thanks..ive got a pwm stock intel fan on it already..12v [email protected] rpm 2200 and its silent like the night under the stars..but..i want to make a new bracket/custom shroud and use a real gpu fan..ill just get a proper 4pin fan..alot less hassle than modifyin this one..
thanks again dude and dudetts..its been fun.
as a side note..this gpu fan..power logic 12v [email protected] does work flawless if i hook it too one of my fan controllers..tested it out yesterday..so i can do that to and just hook the rpm pin to gpu for speed monitor in afterburner..

@dave..sorry if i sidetracked to much in here..i now its not polite..im sorry


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Iwamotto Tetsuz*
> 
> You can do that easily by pushing voltage from 12V-16 or 18V
> Or bolting on 5-10 of the same fans and all of it will spin faster
> if you have 2fans runing at 700RPM it will generate the same amount of airflow at 1400RPM -10%-20% air flow loss


Are you insane? Fans will have their lifespan cut by four or more having done that!

Same airflow either way







Only you get lower noise, that's all.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

only reason i askd about the 200mm fan thing is ive never seen a brand like bitfenix/nzxt/CM or so forth make a true pwm 4 pin 1500rpm 200mm fan..now to me..that sounds cool..then id remove my hd cage..front dust filter..plus my sidepanl fans..and let it rip...but we cant always hv our cake
and eat it twice now can we...


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Just in case you don't know, the graphics card's has a built-in adjustable fan speed controller.
> It is a utility that gives you control of the graphics card's fan speed and the "GPU and memory" clock.
> It fits very snugly, right into the NVIDIA Driver as a new tab called "performance".
> 
> Go here
> http://www.nvidia.com/object/nvidia-system-tools-6.08-driver.html
> On that page , down load the NVIDIA System Tools.


geez, I never knew it before









mine wasn't on the list, but I'm downloading it now.
never settled on what GFX I'll be using for good anyway

thanks, rep+ for you


----------



## souldriver

So not sure if this is the correct place to post this, if not let me know and ill move it.

Im building a new x99 build to replace my 5 year old amd base build. Im also moving from a 700d to a 750d case and im wondering what the best way to configure the fans will be.

Here is my idea and i would like to have other eyes on it to see if my thinking is correct.

Background info: all 140mm fans will be Phanteks PH-F140XP_BK PWM fans, and unless the 140mm variants come out in time the rad will be a swiftech h220x which is 2x120mm fans. GPU will be on based on an EVGA. The HDD cages will be removed, goign 100% SSD on this one.
1 a&b. 2x140mm as intake to push cool air over the gpu
2 a&b. 2x120mm (possible 2x140 or 1x140) exhaust. This will be set up on a swiftech h220x in a pull config as an exhaust.
3. 1x140 exhaust (maybe as an intake but i dont see the point as the cpu will be on water.)
4. 1x140mm intake, it makes sense to bring more cool air into the case, but i fear it would push the air coming in from the front over the gpu?

Here is my fancy, fancy illustration that shows fan placement relative to the components.
http://i.imgur.com/T6crpec.jpg?1


Thoughts?

-Matt


----------



## Luke Cool

As drawn, it looks like a well balanced system.
Air in one corner, and out on the opposite corner.


----------



## doyll

What Luke said. I would try removing PCI-E back covers on unused sockets to improve airflow around GPU. With F140XP fans you could control them with GPU and CPU PWM signals. so they supply air on dependent on GPU and CPU heat. First link sign explains it.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> So not sure if this is the correct place to post this, if not let me know and ill move it.
> 
> Im building a new x99 build to replace my 5 year old amd base build. Im also moving from a 700d to a 750d case and im wondering what the best way to configure the fans will be.
> 
> Here is my idea and i would like to have other eyes on it to see if my thinking is correct.
> 
> Background info: all 140mm fans will be Phanteks PH-F140XP_BK PWM fans, and unless the 140mm variants come out in time the rad will be a swiftech h220x which is 2x120mm fans. GPU will be on based on an EVGA. The HDD cages will be removed, goign 100% SSD on this one.
> 1 a&b. 2x140mm as intake to push cool air over the gpu
> 2 a&b. 2x120mm (possible 2x140 or 1x140) exhaust. This will be set up on a swiftech h220x in a pull config as an exhaust.
> 3. 1x140 exhaust (maybe as an intake but i dont see the point as the cpu will be on water.)
> 4. 1x140mm intake, it makes sense to bring more cool air into the case, but i fear it would push the air coming in from the front over the gpu?
> 
> Here is my fancy, fancy illustration that shows fan placement relative to the components.
> http://i.imgur.com/T6crpec.jpg?1
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> -Matt


I would flip the rear fan to an intake since it's still negative "pressure" considering filters in the front.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What Luke said. I would try removing PCI-E back covers on unused sockets to improve airflow around GPU. With F140XP fans you could control them with GPU and CPU PWM signals. so they supply air on dependent on GPU and CPU heat. First link sign explains it.


The back PCI-E back covers are the type that has large air holes in it. So he, to some extent, has already done what you suggested.
The negative "pressure" created by the current set up will draw fresh air in to the GPU from those holes.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I would flip the rear fan to an intake since it's still negative "pressure" considering filters in the front.


Dave is a "negative case pressure" hater because the air drawn into the case from everywhere it leaks, is unfiltered.
But the back fan is also not filtered.
The big difference between these two ways is Dave's way forces a larger amount of unfiltered air straight into the radiator.
With the current set up, the large air holes by the GPU are the path of least resistance,
this means that most of the air drawn by the negative pressure will be drawn in here.
The down side to this is, the GPU cooling system will need to be checked and cleaned more often.
But, in my opinion, this is the lesser between two evils because the build up in the GPU will be much slower.

The radiator is sometimes easier to clean (than the GPU),
and (depending on the rooms air circulation) Dave's way may run a degree or two cooler till the radiator gets dirty, so its your choice.
With any cooling system, it pays to take time to think it threw.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> The back PCI-E back covers are the type that has large air holes in it.
> The negative "pressure" created by the current set up will draw fresh air in to the GPU.
> Dave is a "negative case pressure" hater because the air drawn into the case from everywhere it leaks, is unfiltered.
> But the back fan is also not filtered.
> The big difference between these two ways is Dave's way forces a larger amount of unfiltered air straight into the radiator.
> With my way, the large air holes by the GPU are the path of least resistance, most of the air will be drawn in there.
> The down side is the GPU cooling system will need to be checked and cleaned more often.
> But, in my opinion, this is the lesser between two evils because the build up in the GPU will be much slower.
> The radiator can be easier to clean, so its your choice.
> With any cooling system, it pays to take time to think it threw.


I made my rear fan an intake, all I had to do was slap a screen filter over it....


----------



## doyll

Removing PCI-E slot covers, even if they are vented, will still increase airflow though them by at least 25-30% .. be it flowing in or out. Either way the airflow should help GPU.
I've learned from years of experience that well thought out airflow can and will often surprise us by doing something other then out great thinking shows it will do.







Side blocked / intake / exhaust is very hard to say which will give best performance. Monitoring temps at cooler intakes and other places in the case is often very helpful in figuring out best airflow. (second link in sig shows what I use to monitor air temps in case).

PH-F140XP fans will have no problem supplying needed air through filters, especially if they are being controlled by component PWM signal .. and filters are kept clean. And considering there are 3x PH-F140XP intakes, they should be more than able to supply plenty of air to GPU and AIO in top. Probably don't need the rear vent at all, but experiment and see which works bests; intake exhaust or nothing.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> PH-F140XP fans will have no problem supplying needed air through filters, especially if they are being controlled by component PWM signal .. and filters are kept clean. And considering there are 3x PH-F140XP intakes, they should be more than able to supply plenty of air to GPU and AIO in top. Probably don't need the rear vent at all, but experiment and see which works bests; intake exhaust or nothing.


Experimenting is always a great idea.
After you think it threw, this not a perfect world, experimenting will prove you wrong or right.
After experimenting, we sometimes see that things are not as they seem.
Little changes can make big differences.

This learning process is very important. It is called "going through the scenarios".
If you explore all of the possible solutions and there most likely outcomes by thinking and experimenting, you will develop a good sense of the what works and why.
People take weeks to find a good over-clocking sit-up, why not put this degree of effort into the cooling setup.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *[XxxxXX]*
> 
> PH-F140XP fans will have no problem supplying needed air through filters, especially if they are being controlled by component PWM signal .. and filters are kept clean. And considering there are 3x PH-F140XP intakes, they should be more than able to supply plenty of air to GPU and AIO in top. Probably don't need the rear vent at all, but experiment and see which works bests; intake exhaust or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Experimenting is always a great idea.
> After you think it threw, this not a perfect world, experimenting will prove you wrong or right.
> After experimenting, we sometimes see that things are not as they seem.
> Little changes can make big differences.
> 
> This learning process is very important. It is called "going through the scenarios".
> If you explore all of the possible solutions and there most likely outcomes by thinking and experimenting, you will develop a good sense of the what works and why.
> People take weeks to find a good over-clocking sit-up, why not put this type of time into the cooling setup.
Click to expand...

|
My name is not Dave!

















Indeed. I've been doing this for many years and the Wicked Airflow Witch still surprises me more often then I like .. or is it an Airflow Gremlin?








No water needed, just add air.


----------



## Luke Cool

This system worked well,
but I traded some work for a bigger cooler with bigger heat pipes.



This cooler 's pipes do not directly touch the CPU like the silver cooler's.
The Black cooler's temperatures run more than 8 degrees hotter.
I thought the back fan may be too close, so I moved it outside the case,
this made no difference.
The CPU cooler fan for both coolers is a 1.3 amp Delta,
its normal running speed is 50% on PWM control. At 130°F it goes to 100%.
This cooler switch is a FAIL,
Looks can be deceiving, the silver cooler is a much better cooler.

I'm thinking of installing a water cooling system I've had for a while, but I hesitate to make the plunge. The Pump is made for larger hoses than the rest of the system takes. I think I need a new system to fit my Swiftech MCP655-B pump.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> My name is not Dave!


My bad, I corrected my post. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## souldriver

That's some food for thought definitely.

So here are some thoughts I'm having...

- Since intake is essentially 3x140 (all intakes will have a filter on them) and exhaust will be 1x140 and 2x120 (both through a rad and filter) wouldn't there be a alight positive pressure in the case?

-Since I can control all my fans, would having the front 2 fans set higher than the bottom intake make it so most of the air makes it to the gpu instead of getting blown up. Likewise, using control on the back exhaust and keeping that low, wouldn't that help create a positive pressure.

- on the idea of turning the rear exhaust into an intake (i have this on my current air cooled rig, it did help a little ) how much hot air is in that area around the cpu? With the cpu blocked and not having a heatsink there wouldn't the need for cool air in that area be significantly decreased? Does the back of the gpu get hot enough to heat that area? Since it would be pushing that air towards the front wouldnt it make a dead zone up there of hot air that could even potentially mix with the front I take? With the psu exhausting out the back, and the case being back against a wall would that hot air also be detrimental? The rear case fan is one of the easiest to switch around so I expect a lot of experimenting there.

Oh btw, thanks for the thread guys, easy read and an eye opener.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> That's some food for thought definitely.
> So here are some thoughts I'm having...
> - Since intake is essentially 3x140 (all intakes will have a filter on them) and exhaust will be 1x140 and 2x120 (both through a rad and filter) wouldn't there be a alight positive pressure in the case?


Yes, We would hope so. The intakes are on the bottom, front, and back, 4 fans. The two on top are exhaust. This is what Dave suggested. The addition of filters makes this a good configuration. The 3 in and 3 out, because of the filters, would have negative case pressure, as Dive told us earlier.
Edit: "nick779" in post #1098 suggested a filter and the back fan as an intake, I think this is a good compromise, because filtered air intakes and positive case pressure make for a cleaner running computer. If you have a dust free house, this story will change.

Now you're starting to look at this like an engineer. These are some great questions. I will answer them one at a time.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> -Since I can control all my fans, would having the front 2 fans set higher than the bottom intake make it so most of the air makes it to the gpu instead of getting blown up. Likewise, using control on the back exhaust and keeping that low, wouldn't that help create a positive pressure.


No, just the opposite. The intake fans need to run strong to counteract the filters opposition to flow. The high positive pressure of filtered air will let your computer run cleaner and kick the GPU's hot air out of the holes in the slot covers. Keeping these filters clean is important, the case pressure will go negative as they get dirtier. Then your radiator will get dirty.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> - on the idea of turning the rear exhaust into an intake (i have this on my current air cooled rig, it did help a little) how much hot air is in that area around the cpu?


The back of the GPU and the memory are problems. Most computers have a dead air spot there. After you turn the computer off, check the heat with your finger. If you see a problem, configure a fan or two and fix it.


_This is a DELL T3400, I installed a 60mm fan over the North Bridge using creatively bent fence wire
because it was running way too hot. See the full story in A Guide on how to fix Heat Problems_

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> With the cpu blocked and not having a heatsink there wouldn't the need for cool air in that area be significantly decreased?


The block should remove most of the heat, but if this is a concern, you now know how to check it. See question #3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> Does the back of the gpu get hot enough to heat that area?


Yes. See question #3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> Since it would be pushing that air towards the front wouldnt it make a dead zone up there of hot air that could even potentially mix with the front In take?


You will have air flow threw that area, whether it brushes the hot spots enough to cool them is a question that only you can answer by checking it. See question #3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> With the psu exhausting out the back, and the case being back against a wall would that hot air also be detrimental? The rear case fan is one of the easiest to switch around so I expect a lot of experimenting there.


I thought you already made this fan an intake. If filtered, it is a great idea.
Edit: Sorry, that was "nick779" on post #1098

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> Oh btw, thanks for the thread guys, easy read and an eye opener.


For some extra info, there are short cuts to some good reading at the bottom of Doyll's and my post.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

he can always add a fan to the side panel to take care of the gpu erea?

dusty pc...if i may add...?
then my own rig should look like my backyard..
ive got only 2 exhaust fans..apart from the one bottom rad..80% intake 20%out(2fans + lots of openings)

with his 750d he can easily do 3 front intakes..1bottom..1rear out..top cooler push or pull/push pull for xtra oomph.lower fan speed and better temps. out..and still achieve great cooling..

nice info luke cool..+all


----------



## inVain

a bent fence wire.
that's a nice one








how can I missed this on your article, Luke









I've never seen this before, even on the gethho rigging thread.
and the best part, it's even stronger than a conventional "twisted wire".

just in time when I already popped my side panel open too


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> a bent fence wire.
> that's a nice one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how can I missed this on your article, Luke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen this before, even on the gethho rigging thread.
> and the best part, it's even stronger than a conventional "twisted wire".
> 
> just in time when I already popped my side panel open too


I'm glad you liked it. May be I should make a ghetto rigging video for youtube








If you feel your memory or North Bridge and it is hot, you have a problem that you need to fix.
That wire and fan cost me less than $2, and very effectively fixed the problem.
The wire is tight , and the fan does not rattle. This rig is made with one uncut piece of wire with 22 bends in it.
The wire is bent in 4 places inside the North Bridge, this rig is very secure and will not side out onto the board.

Engineers put there paints on one leg at a time just like you and I, they make mistake too.
I often turned in "field engineer bulletins" in my job, and saw my ghetto rigging come out as a factory modification.
Techs would go behind me and replace parts I had made and say the part I had made was better than the factory part.
I would do anything to get a customer machine working, but in the end, the machine has to be fixed to specs, or the factory reps will not support it.
It is amazing what one can make with paper clips, tin foil, 5 minute epoxy and a Dremel.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> he can always add a fan to the side panel to take care of the gpu erea?
> 
> dusty pc...if i may add...?
> then my own rig should look like my backyard..
> ive got only 2 exhaust fans..apart from the one bottom rad..80% intake 20%out(2fans + lots of openings)
> with his 750d he can easily do 3 front intakes..1bottom..1rear out..top cooler push or pull/push pull for xtra oomph.lower fan speed and better temps. out..and still achieve great cooling..
> 
> nice info luke cool..+all


Thanks.
I live in Florida in the USA, It is a tropical climate. It's hot, it rains often, its windy, and there are bugs everywhere. Some nights, you can walk outside and see mosquitos by the thousands. The humidity is so high and the air is so thick, its hard to breath when you first move here. Its a common complaint.
The chemicals and other contaminants are carried by the humidity in the air, they coat everything. People that smoke in their house here, have yellow "walls furniture and electrical appliances". The computer in the picture was freshly blown out with a compressor. "Dry" cleaning chemicals like Freon works well to clean this coating off but can only be used outside, and they're expensive and bad for the environment. Soap and water works well, but that is a long process. A chemical film will cover the metal on your heat sinks and insolate the heat sink from air flow. The heat sinks (coolers) have to be removed from the computer and cleaned, to remove the coating. This must be done here to coolers every 2 to 3 years or so; the higher the airflow, the more often it needs to be done. I clean all the fans with damp Q-tips, the one shown is freshly cleaned. This type of climate is very hard on any electrical equipment that has to breath air to keep it cool. Iron quickly rust and copper quickly tarnishes. Here, dust coats together and quickly makes a sticky mat. Computers have to be blown out every month. I own 3 compressors. If there is a HELL for electrical equipment, I live there. I have lived in the desert also; there, electrical equipment is easy to clean.


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Just in case you don't know, the graphics card's has a built-in adjustable fan speed controller.
> It is a utility that gives you control of the graphics card's fan speed and the "GPU and memory" clock.
> It fits very snugly, right into the NVIDIA Driver as a new tab called "performance".
> 
> Go here
> http://www.nvidia.com/object/nvidia-system-tools-6.08-driver.html
> On that page , down load the NVIDIA System Tools.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Thanks for this i was wondering how i was going to control my fan speed just got gpu fan adapters....

+rep


----------



## X-PREDATOR

http://www.guru3d.com/files-details/nvidia-inspector-download.html

http://event.msi.com/vga/afterburner/download.htm

to monitor system temps and fans ect

http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html

http://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp/

if you want you can get hwmonitor pro..it gives you fan control and few added features..


----------



## DaveLT

If you want fan control you just get SpeedFan, as for monitoring, Aida64 ... Of course, you should get the pro version.


----------



## souldriver

I know it wouldnt work with most fans out there, but you know what i would like to see... those switches they put on ceiling fans that put them in reverse. it would make experimenting much easier.


----------



## Tec Savy

Do they have the same technique? Ceiling fan and CPU air cooling fan?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *souldriver*
> 
> I know it wouldnt work with most fans out there, but you know what i would like to see... those switches they put on ceiling fans that put them in reverse. it would make experimenting much easier.


----------



## DaveLT

It's a switch that wires up the opposite poles of a motor if it's a DC motor or if the motor is AC induction type a separate tap on the motor allows the motor to be reversed that is, by reversing the winding of 2 windings


----------



## X-PREDATOR

that gives me some thaught..what if
a fanblades could be made /shaped to actualy realy work that way..with an included adapter to make it run in opposite direction?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> that gives me some thaught..what if
> a fanblades could be made /shaped to actualy realy work that way..with an included adapter to make it run in opposite direction?


Fan blades are not efficient in reverse and if you someone does make something like our fan circuit boards will just die because the core of brushless fans are similar to induction motors but there's a circuit before it that controls speed power draw and chopping of DC into AC for operation of the fan and other logic as such

If you want an reversible fan Sunon, Delta and Powerlogic has made some but they're all out of reach to everyone else.


----------



## abombthecoder

If I just leave my case open(tower whose sides are off), do I even need fans and would it be cooler than if I had the sides on and properly placed fans?


----------



## doyll

NZXT T40 and Titan Fenrir? NZXT are fine, Titan I don't know. Was never impressed with them.







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *abombthecoder*
> 
> If I just leave my case open(tower whose sides are off), do I even need fans and would it be cooler than if I had the sides on and properly placed fans?


Proper airflow will give better temps then open case .. because it is controlled airflow, not random airflow.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

no..it would probably be within marginof error from 1-5 °C.i often do it with my work pc when swapping out drives ect..
some things will be cooler but if the erea the setup is in is hot or high ambients and so forth it wont make much of a difference.
now if you had a very powerfull AC unit kerping things constant at a cool level then itll work..
does for me then


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *abombthecoder*
> 
> If I just leave my case open(tower whose sides are off), do I even need fans and would it be cooler than if I had the sides on and properly placed fans?


Cases (with the side on) are designed to where you can adjust the air flow to best suit you device configuration.
You need this organized flow, Without it, you devices recirculates their own hot air, and over heat.
You do not want dead air pockets, "open air" cases have flow threw.
With the side off, a case is one great big concave pocket.

I have seen friends that leave the side off and point a big fan in their case.
This does work great, but it matters where you point the big fan.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Fan blades are not efficient in reverse and if you someone does make something like our fan circuit boards will just die because the core of brushless fans are similar to induction motors but there's a circuit before it that controls speed power draw and chopping of DC into AC for operation of the fan and other logic as such
> 
> If you want an reversible fan Sunon, Delta and Powerlogic has made some but they're all out of reach to everyone else.


A fan can not be designed to work efficiently in both directions.
I would rather have an efficient fan and flip it when I am experimenting.
When I am done and make a choice, I want the fan to work well in the direction I choose.

Fans that are designed to work in both directions spay air out the exit end.
Fans that are designed to work in one direction have a more focused airflow.
You do not want your ceiling fan to have a focused airflow, like most fans have.
You want your ceiling fan to spay air, because this spayed air flow is more effective at causing a circular air movement in your room.
The idea is the have air flow through-out the whole room so the temperature will be consistent in that circulation's air movement.
This also makes the ceiling fan an ideal candidate for reverse flow.
This is because this reversed air flow works better in the winter, and spayed flow also works well for this winter mode for the same reason as above. .

I fly RC Airplanes. If you reverse the propeller, you lose more than half the thrust.


----------



## vlaint

"As for cooling your VRMs, no matter what you do NEVER EVER use a exhaust on the VRM areas, i don't need to tell you this but you have an exhaust just above it where does it get it's supply of fresh air from?"

Just a clarification. Does this mean not putting a fan above your vrm? Its because I have a ga 990fxa ud3 rev 3 which has crappy vrm heatsink that i had to put one above it. Also will taking the pci e cover improve airflow?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> "As for cooling your VRMs, no matter what you do NEVER EVER use a exhaust on the VRM areas, i don't need to tell you this but you have an exhaust just above it where does it get it's supply of fresh air from?"
> 
> Just a clarification. Does this mean not putting a fan above your vrm? Its because I have a ga 990fxa ud3 rev 3 which has crappy vrm heatsink that i had to put one above it. Also will taking the pci e cover improve airflow?


That's according to my testing a year ago, it still stands as if your AIO is a 120/140 unit (I recommend CM's Nepton and Seidon) you're just sort of "stealing the air" around it creating a huge air pocket. For a heatsink it's just pulling hot air through the VRM from the heatsink, that's all.
What I suggest is install a filtered intake above your VRMs.
Air does not magically rise in a case unless your airflow is basically zero.
It will, but it will also increase dust amount if you have negative balance airflow, as for positive it might but the point is we're trying to direct airflow to where it should go, through the fans, not everywhere else.

I think it's time to rewrite me guide.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *abombthecoder*
> 
> If I just leave my case open(tower whose sides are off), do I even need fans and would it be cooler than if I had the sides on and properly placed fans?


Put it simply it's like brute force cooling and while it does work I wouldn't recommend that. Your case becomes an stage for enormous air pockets in many spots


----------



## WiLd FyeR

Will adding a 120 fan at the bottom of the case help? or will this setup suffice?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

what fans are in the front?


----------



## WiLd FyeR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> what fans are in the front?


A pair of Noctua's AF14's.


----------



## DaveLT

Not that I particularly mind since you already bought them, that will do the job. Your GPU is miniature by the looks of it


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I'm glad you liked it. May be I should make a ghetto rigging video for youtube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel your memory or North Bridge and it is hot, you have a problem that you need to fix.
> That wire and fan cost me less than $2, and very effectively fixed the problem.
> The wire is tight , and the fan does not rattle. This rig is made with one uncut piece of wire with 22 bends in it.
> The wire is bent in 4 places inside the North Bridge, this rig is very secure and will not side out onto the board.
> 
> Engineers put there paints on one leg at a time just like you and I, they make mistake too.
> I often turned in "field engineer bulletins" in my job, and saw my ghetto rigging come out as a factory modification.
> Techs would go behind me and replace parts I had made and say the part I had made was better than the factory part.
> I would do anything to get a customer machine working, but in the end, the machine has to be fixed to specs, or the factory reps will not support it.
> It is amazing what one can make with paper clips, tin foil, 5 minute epoxy and a Dremel.


there's always something genuine behind those every single ghetto I've ever seen.
they always been so practical and easy to do stuff but on the other hand, it might be something important.
that's what I like about the ghetto rigging thread, tons of ideas to be found there









I'm not quite sure if my NB runs that hot (haven't touch it lately, the tall cooler is on the way







)
but I can tell it's on a dead spot in term of airflow, heat pipe right above it and GFX from below.
I don't have any stability issues with my current setup, buy I can't go beyond with overclocking without pumping up some ridiculous voltage,
so I thought maybe I would be nice to add a little fan on the NB and squeeze a little something more (hopefully)

I really like to put my cpu cooler so it draws air from the GFX and exhausting to the top, until I found out that the conventional front to back generate lesser noise.
anyway the choice had to be made and problems might follow to be solved.
it's just nice to have the solution appears right before your eyes when you need it









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> This cooler 's pipes do not directly touch the CPU like the silver cooler's.
> The Black cooler's temperatures run more than 8 degrees hotter.
> I thought the back fan may be too close, so I moved it outside the case,
> this made no difference.
> The CPU cooler fan for both coolers is a 1.3 amp Delta,
> its normal running speed is 50% on PWM control. At 130°F it goes to 100%.
> This cooler switch is a FAIL,
> Looks can be deceiving, the silver cooler is a much better cooler.


this is something interesting.
your replacement cooler looks much bigger than the previous one.
I too, think that it should give better performance than the smaller silver one, which appear to gave us surprises in the end









oh well, if there ain't so much surprises on this "active cooling techniques" we probably won't be bother to hang out on this sub forum for this whole time, aren't we?

and by the way,
someone did a very interesting comparison on this size matter relating stuff on here -> LINK
that mini review leaves me with choke as the smaller and cheaper TRUE Spirit 140 can outperform a top-notch cooler of all time.
it even outperforming a cooler which made out of whole cooper


----------



## WiLd FyeR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Not that I particularly mind since you already bought them, that will do the job. Your GPU is miniature by the looks of it


ahahah.. its a temporary card (750ti) for now till the 9 Series cards come out. Sold the OG Titans for $800 a couple months back. Debating if going under water but I do like the low maintenance and worry free on air thing.


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> That's according to my testing a year ago, it still stands as if your AIO is a 120/140 unit (I recommend CM's Nepton and Seidon) you're just sort of "stealing the air" around it creating a huge air pocket. For a heatsink it's just pulling hot air through the VRM from the heatsink, that's all.
> What I suggest is install a filtered intake above your VRMs.


What is AIO? And do you mean reversing my rear fan to intake and add a dust filter?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@wild...nice setup..youre good in that config..the 750ti's are good little chompers..heck that thing can beat a old 580 easily..ive seen it..
are those afs running maxed or low rpm?

@vliant
aio is all in one liquid cooler:h100/70/80/50/60 +i series-75/90/110
nzxt kraken/thermaltake 2.0/3.0
!!!!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> What is AIO? And do you mean reversing my rear fan to intake and add a dust filter?


AIO is an liquid cooler but is self contained. My recommendations are : CM Seidon, CM Nepton, Deepcool Maelstrom
Turning your rear fan into an intake and add a dust filter at the back.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

deepcool? seriously? i dont want to bust a peanut..but ive seen you rave about deepcool alot..are they realy any good?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> What is AIO? And do you mean reversing my rear fan to intake and add a dust filter?


AIO = All In One
CLC = Closed Loop Cooling .. sealed loops with no way to top of coolant or remove separate components.

All AIO are not CLC, but all CLC are AIO.

CLC is a sub-group of AIO coolers.

Like all rectangles are not squares, but all squares are rectangles.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> deepcool? seriously? i dont want to bust a peanut..but ive seen you rave about deepcool alot..are they realy any good?


Dawut? It should show ... Their business is so big it's bigger than CoolIt and Asetek combined... maybe even bigger than CoolerMaster's cooling arm
In short, they are good. Most OEMs use Deepcool these days

I wouldn't rave about Deepcool if they aren't good, I'm one that definitely knows what's a crap product from one that is great... For example : The NZXT Sentry 3! Absolute heap of crap.


----------



## vlaint

ahh i see though though i do not liquid cool my cpu. I use a deepcool windblade pro 2.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> ahh i see though though i do not liquid cool my cpu. I use a deepcool windblade pro 2.


I used to use a deepcool Ice Blade GS after that a deepcool neptwin then a lucifer but now I use a CoolerMaster Nepton 140XL








My HTPC uses a CoolerMaster Hyper D92


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ok.cool im just asking cause the few fans and coolers ive seen and used were terrible..maybe since then theyve improved.
cool beans dave..
the more i see you say cm xl140..the more i want one..but oh well..


----------



## vlaint

Just gonna stay with air for now(broke)lol.But should i change the stock fan? Also will buy a fc5v2 next week hopefully the afb1212he will arrive then


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> AIO is an liquid cooler but is self contained. My recommendations are : CM Seidon, CM Nepton, Deepcool Maelstrom
> Turning your rear fan into an intake and add a dust filter at the back.


Just stay away from the Eisberg, those pump blocks crack and leak. Theres a few threads here and on overclockers about them ruining pcs.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Just stay away from the Eisberg, those pump blocks crack and leak. Theres a few threads here and on overclockers about them ruining pcs.


I've never had any experiences with eisberg and i have never recommended them. Technically those were the early designs from europe.


----------



## WiLd FyeR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @wild...nice setup..youre good in that config..the 750ti's are good little chompers..heck that thing can beat a old 580 easily..ive seen it..
> are those afs running maxed or low rpm?


Thank you REP+







, I was just checking if it would be worth it modding for another 120 fan at the bottom. Custom loop is still an option but I like the care free air setup.

Fans are controlled by the Aquaero Fan controller so the case fan speed is based on the GPU temp. The intake (AF's) fan curve is based on the GPU fan curve but a little more aggressive curve.

750ti's are nice really, run kool and run all my games (mmo, iracing) with no problem. Might last me till 2016 or depending if I have an itch to waste money or what type of games I have.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

cool beans bro..thanks..
man if shipping wasnt so crazy id try get an aqauro...those things are legend..is it the 1 with full remote+software control?
what case is that..that youd hv to moddiy for a fanspot..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> cool beans bro..thanks..
> man if shipping wasnt so crazy id try get an aqauro...those things are legend..is it the 1 with full remote+software control?
> what case is that..that youd hv to moddiy for a fanspot..


Even 7850 beats a 580 in actual performance now due to driver improvements, when it came out it was already ahead of a 6950
Aquaeros are stupid expensive though ...


----------



## WiLd FyeR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> cool beans bro..thanks..
> man if shipping wasnt so crazy id try get an aqauro...those things are legend..is it the 1 with full remote+software control?
> what case is that..that youd hv to moddiy for a fanspot..


I'm using the Aquaero 6xt w/remote and software. It's a really nice piece of fan controller if you use its capabilities. I hardly even touch it since I programmed the fans on a curve depending on the GPU or cpu temp. Yes, it can be crazy expensive but once its setup, its auto-pilot from there on.

Case is a Corsair 350D.


----------



## ldewitt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> AIO = All In One
> CLC = Closed Loop Cooling .. sealed loops with no way to top of coolant or remove separate components.
> 
> All AIO are not CLC, but all CLC are AIO.
> 
> CLC is a sub-group of AIO coolers.
> 
> Like all rectangles are not squares, but all squares are rectangles.


+1 Dave's explanation wasn't obvious enough.

No pun intended Dave.


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

curious question why are there no static pressure optimized fans that have a size of >= to 140mm? does going over 120mm hard for a fan to keep up good static pressure as I don't seem to find any?

and also will it do good for me if I use SP120s (high performance edition with PWM) as exhaust does it "improve" the cooling capability of the case? if thats the case whats the purpose of the 120/140 AF editions then?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> curious question why are there no static pressure optimized fans that have a size of >= to 140mm? does going over 120mm hard for a fan to keep up good static pressure as I don't seem to find any?
> 
> and also will it do good for me if I use SP120s (high performance edition with PWM) as exhaust does it "improve" the cooling capability of the case? if thats the case whats the purpose of the 120/140 AF editions then?


Because there is no industrial demand for 140mm fans and servers have no use for 140mm fans (too much space taken up) and so the industrial fan designers have not really bothered. They did but ... they cost just over 50 bucks ...
That's not entirely true but the real reason is a "golden ratio" for fan to hub ratio and 120mm fans have no problem getting near that but 140mm fans need an enormous hub to get a golden ratio for static pressure vs airflow and generally a lot of noise because a bigger hub does cause more turbulence.

You can indeed pressure optimize a 140mm fan but it's gonna be a noisy affair and if they are having to use "tricks" to get noise down like saw-tipped blades that's not going to work at high speed. And also, at low speeds the fans with "extruded" blades on the end (like a phanteks PH-F140SP or deepcool GF120/140 UF120/140) they tend to have a very wide airflow spread.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

what if they changed the fan hub shape?
example into bullet shape..like a jetengine..
the thermalrake-/right turbo fan' hub is a good example..take a presure optimised fan like you said and change the hub and up the rpm..?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> what if they changed the fan hub shape?
> example into bullet shape..like a jetengine..
> the thermalrake-/right turbo fan' hub is a good example..take a presure optimised fan like you said and change the hub and up the rpm..?


Frankly reason why jet engines and propeller planes have those hubs are to stabilize high speed operation that's all they do. All they do is to channel airflow into the blades or else if they have a flat hub air will be pushing against the hub and depending on air direction it could end with disastrous consequences resulting from imbalance

And don't forget they weigh extra and take up too much space!!


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> curious question why are there no static pressure optimized fans that have a size of >= to 140mm? does going over 120mm hard for a fan to keep up good static pressure as I don't seem to find any?
> 
> and also will it do good for me if I use SP120s (high performance edition with PWM) as exhaust does it "improve" the cooling capability of the case? if thats the case whats the purpose of the 120/140 AF editions then?


What is your definition of "static pressure optimized"? There are several 140mm fans with plenty of static pressure to give very good airflow through coolers, radiators, filters and grills.

Consumer fans are often designed for selling, not performing. As long as it sells, the performance isn't important .. and there are many consumers who go for looks first, then sometimes wonder why their system is loud and hot. Many fans are more show than go .. looks rather than performance .. while Noctua, Thermalright, etc. are more about performance first and looks are secondary .. and of course commercial fans like Nidec, Sanyo, Delta, Papst, Sunon, etc. are definitely performance over looks.









I get fans with more static pressure because it's like a garden hose; low pressure and it's easy to stop the flow, but higher pressure it's not .. no matter what you do, the hose just keeps running about the same amount of water out of it. Good fans do basically the same thing, just air instead of water.

Have heard of Golden Ratio, but not a fan hub to blade golden ratio. Where can I read up about this?


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Because there is no industrial demand for 140mm fans and servers have no use for 140mm fans (too much space taken up) and so the industrial fan designers have not really bothered. They did but ... they cost just over 50 bucks ...
> That's not entirely true but the real reason is a "golden ratio" for fan to hub ratio and 120mm fans have no problem getting near that but 140mm fans need an enormous hub to get a golden ratio for static pressure vs airflow and generally a lot of noise because a bigger hub does cause more turbulence.
> 
> You can indeed pressure optimize a 140mm fan but it's gonna be a noisy affair and if they are having to use "tricks" to get noise down like saw-tipped blades that's not going to work at high speed. And also, at low speeds the fans with "extruded" blades on the end (like a phanteks PH-F140SP or deepcool GF120/140 UF120/140) they tend to have a very wide airflow spread.


sweet thanks for clearing that up and didn't expected the thread starter itself to be answering my inquiry (as you originally posted this over 2 years ago =D)

but can I ask what you mean with this line?

"[7] If you use a case with side loading drives (like a Corsair 300R)
Use a push pull fan config for the harddrives if you have hungry drives like Raptors but even so with normal drives i would recommend push pull fan configs anyway."

as I actually use a corsair 300R and have a hard time understanding what you meant with "push,pull" on the front fans

also do you think I should also the use side fans (if I do put-up) as exhaust as I have a MSI Twin Frozr III/IV 7970 or as intake?

and been thinking on following this layout in this link (please tell me if that link's fan size selection is wrong)

http://gyazo.com/2e4bb717a78357febe02fbed1ebabaf8 (minus the H60 as I already bought a NH-D15)

another question do I benefit when I use static pressure (corsair SP)optimized fans as exhaust or will the air flow (corsair AF) would be better and should I use 140mm fans as exhaust?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What is your definition of "static pressure optimized"? There are several 140mm fans with plenty of static pressure to give very good airflow through coolers, radiators, filters and grills.
> 
> Consumer fans are often designed for selling, not performing. As long as it sells, the performance isn't important .. and there are many consumers who go for looks first, then sometimes wonder why their system is loud and hot. Many fans are more show than go .. looks rather than performance .. while Noctua, Thermalright, etc. are more about performance first and looks are secondary .. and of course commercial fans like Nidec, Sanyo, Delta, Papst, Sunon, etc. are definitely performance over looks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get fans with more static pressure because it's like a garden hose; low pressure and it's easy to stop the flow, but higher pressure it's not .. no matter what you do, the hose just keeps running about the same amount of water out of it. Good fans do basically the same thing, just air instead of water.
> 
> Have heard of Golden Ratio, but not a fan hub to blade golden ratio. Where can I read up about this?


I think some university papers should be where you begin with.


----------



## Luke Cool

Hard drives need air to brush them so that they do not sit there and cook in there own heat. The flow does not need to be substantial.
However, substantial flow will not hurt them if it is needed to build a beneficial flow path for other devices.

Push-pull means; The push fan pushes air into an enclosure (case radiator or HDD bay),
and the pull fan exits air from that same enclosure (case radiator or HDD bay),
Where-as both fans are moving air in the same direction through that enclosure.
ALSO a fan creating a vacuum in an enclosure is considered a pull fan,
and a fan creating pressure in an enclosure is considered a push fan.

do I benefit when I use static pressure (corsair SP)optimized fans
There are a lot variables that change from config to config,
so no one can gave you a definitive answer.
If you read back a few post, there is a lot of info on pos and neg case pressure,
so I am not going to repeat that content; this is only one of the variables.
That case you show normally benefits from weak entrance fans on the side,
How-ever this is dependent on the rest of your flow configuration.
Experimentation is the only way you will find the perfect answer.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What is your definition of "static pressure optimized"? There are several 140mm fans with plenty of static pressure to give very good airflow through coolers, radiators, filters and grills.
> 
> Consumer fans are often designed for selling, not performing. As long as it sells, the performance isn't important .. and there are many consumers who go for looks first, then sometimes wonder why their system is loud and hot. Many fans are more show than go .. looks rather than performance .. while Noctua, Thermalright, etc. are more about performance first and looks are secondary .. and of course commercial fans like Nidec, Sanyo, Delta, Papst, Sunon, etc. are definitely performance over looks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get fans with more static pressure because it's like a garden hose; low pressure and it's easy to stop the flow, but higher pressure it's not .. no matter what you do, the hose just keeps running about the same amount of water out of it. Good fans do basically the same thing, just air instead of water.
> 
> Have heard of Golden Ratio, but not a fan hub to blade golden ratio. Where can I read up about this?
> 
> 
> 
> I think some university papers should be where you begin with.
Click to expand...

Would really appreciate a link to some data substantiating this "golden rule" you referred to.







Quote:


> ... the real reason is a "golden ratio" for fan to hub ratio and 120mm fans have no problem getting near that but 140mm fans need an enormous hub to get a golden ratio for static pressure vs airflow and generally a lot of noise because a bigger hub does cause more turbulence.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Would really appreciate a link to some data substantiating this "golden rule" you referred to.


Do your own searching. I believe the "god of cooling" who constantly attacks me knows how to search. Golden ratio is just a way of simplifying explanations to those who aren't so inclined.
For 140mm fans to have a good ratio of hub to blade ratio for higher static pressure, airflow will also go down and although blades can be made thicker to improve static pressure and increase swept area it is not a good idea therefore the hub size for any 140mm with decent static pressure is way too big.

And a big hub makes it only good for venting a said enclosure and also a bigger hub creates more turbulence, you can't design a fan with a small hub and thicker blades either as the pressure it is pulling against will push against the hub in which a small hub compared to the fan wobbles about and thus make it unbalanced when running higher speeds. And when it comes to a 140mm fan the definition for "high-speed" becomes a hell lot lower so be warned.


----------



## DaveLT

Main post updated. It is perhaps far more kind in nature and better written than before.
I may be writing a new guide on selecting a heatsink and I am definitely not accepting that crummy heatsink "guide" I see on this forum.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Do your own searching. I believe the "god of cooling" who constantly attacks me knows how to search. Golden ratio is just a way of simplifying explanations to those who aren't so inclined.
> For 140mm fans to have a good ratio of hub to blade ratio for higher static pressure, airflow will also go down and although blades can be made thicker to improve static pressure and increase swept area it is not a good idea therefore the hub size for any 140mm with decent static pressure is way too big.
> 
> And a big hub makes it only good for venting a said enclosure and also a bigger hub creates more turbulence, you can't design a fan with a small hub and thicker blades either as the pressure it is pulling against will push against the hub in which a small hub compared to the fan wobbles about and thus make it unbalanced when running higher speeds. And when it comes to a 140mm fan the definition for "high-speed" becomes a hell lot lower so be warned.


Not attacking. Just asking where I can read up on this "golden rule" and "hub to blade ratio for higher static pressure, alrflow." Airplanes, helicopters, air boats, hovercraft, etc all use fans with a much bigger blade length / size to hub size than computer fans .. and they develop huge amounts of static pressure and airflow. Enough to lift massive amounts of weight and / or reach very high speeds. As this big fans on aircraft and hovercraft work very well, how does this fan hub to blade size "golden ratio" relate?

As alrady stated, I'm not attacking. I'm trying to understand what you are talking about and how it works.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Not attacking. Just asking where I can read up on this "golden rule" and "hub to blade ratio for higher static pressure, alrflow." Airplanes, helicopters, air boats, hovercraft, etc all use fans with a much bigger blade length / size to hub size than computer fans .. and they develop huge amounts of static pressure and airflow. Enough to lift massive amounts of weight and / or reach very high speeds. As this big fans on aircraft and hovercraft work very well, how does this fan hub to blade size "golden ratio" relate?
> 
> As alrady stated, I'm not attacking. I'm trying to understand what you are talking about and how it works.


They use an aforementioned "coned sharp hub" to cut down on the size of the hub they would need to use and enlarge the thickness of the blades for maximum swept area and because of the directed airflow towards the blades the turbulence is cut down pressure is also enhanced.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> "[7] If you use a case with side loading drives (like a Corsair 300R)
> Use a push pull fan config for the harddrives if you have hungry drives like Raptors but even so *with normal drives i would recommend push pull fan configs anyway*."


do this!
and your graphics will be grateful as well


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They use an aforementioned "coned sharp hub" to cut down on the size of the hub they would need to use and enlarge the thickness of the blades for maximum swept area and because of the directed airflow towards the blades the turbulence is cut down pressure is also enhanced.


Helicopters have no "cone shaped hub", nor do many older planes from 40s and 50s. 120mm fans have 35-40mm center hub and 35-40mm blade length. 140mm fans have 35-45mm center hub and 50=56mm blade length. A ratio of hub to blade of less then 1:2 Aircraft have center hub to blade lenth many times that. .. more like 20cm center hub to 100cm blade length .. a ratio of 1:5.

So if a 120mm fan has a better hub to blade length ratio than a 140mm fan because they both have same / similar center hubs but 140mm has 10mm longer blades both are still much less than 1:2 ratio while aircraft and other applications are 1:5 or greater.

So how does this "golden ratio" that says 120mm fans inherently better than 140mm fans because of this ratio when all these other ap0plicationss of larger fans / propellers have so much high hub to blade ratios?

As I understand it aircraft use airflow and overcome static pressure to develop the air movement speed to fly or in helicopters the thrust to lift off


----------



## inVain

He's right, Dave
I think it's time to start designing a rocket propelled by the Deltas...

oh man, things just getting more hilarious than ever before.
I'm better start browsing the net for some nuts and bolts.
just in case that my rig will take off when my fan controller's fubar-ed


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> He's right, Dave
> I think it's time to start designing a rocket propelled by the Deltas...
> 
> oh man, things just getting more hilarious than ever before.
> I'm better start browsing the net for some nuts and bolts.
> just in case that my rig will take off when my fan controller's fubar-ed


Pocket rocket face off - Battle of the deltas


----------



## BakerMan1971

to be fair, and as a layman, golden rule doesn't mean much to me, do we have any graphis or other evidence easily posted? because I am definitely under the impression that my 140mm fans perform better than the previous 120mm fans as far as cooling my case goes. And would this not also mean that there would be pretty much no difference between a 120mm and 140mm cpu cooler? Because benchmarks and forum advice tend to lean towards the 140mm units.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> to be fair, and as a layman, golden rule doesn't mean much to me, do we have any graphis or other evidence easily posted? because I am definitely under the impression that my 140mm fans perform better than the previous 120mm fans as far as cooling my case goes. And would this not also mean that there would be pretty much no difference between a 120mm and 140mm cpu cooler? Because benchmarks and forum advice tend to lean towards the 140mm units.


140s have the advantage of more Airflow per RPM compared to 120s.

Though 120s have better SP per RPM.

Check manufacturers that offer both sizes for the specs..


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> to be fair, and as a layman, golden rule doesn't mean much to me, do we have any graphis or other evidence easily posted? because I am definitely under the impression that my 140mm fans perform better than the previous 120mm fans as far as cooling my case goes. And would this not also mean that there would be pretty much no difference between a 120mm and 140mm cpu cooler? Because benchmarks and forum advice tend to lean towards the 140mm units.


True, however heatsink manufacturers usually fit the unit with fans that best fit/cover the size of the unit and obviously a 140mm sized unit will have more surface area/heatpipes etc. Until recently cases have largely been built around 120mm fan design. I believe it was the CaseLab Rep who said that interest and demand in 140mm fans has just recently begun to rise so maybe there will be some innovation and wider availability in140mm fan design.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> True, however heatsink manufacturers usually fit the unit with fans that best fit/cover the size of the unit and obviously a 140mm sized unit will have more surface area/heatpipes etc. Until recently cases have largely been built around 120mm fan design. I believe it was the CaseLab Rep who said that interest and demand in 140mm fans has just recently begun to rise so maybe there will be some innovation and wider availability in140mm fan design.


I just don't think the same way. Only in this weird enthusiast market maybe but you don't gain anything extra but rather lose pressure compared to 120mm fans. As for the heatsinks it is best fit indeed as heat sinks usually are sparse enough for 140mm fans to flow freely even for 120mm intended designs.
Some 140mm heatsinks are literally 120mm fan intended heatsinks with 140mm fans on them, lots of wasted space and any improvement may be from the heatsink re-design and not the fan.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> 140s have the advantage of more Airflow per RPM compared to 120s.
> 
> Though 120s have better SP per RPM.
> 
> Check manufacturers that offer both sizes for the specs..


False. Their airflow is over an wider area and the increase in CFM is heavily offset by a larger corresponding decrease in static pressure.
Remember, you're getting air towards components not trying to vent a case.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

what if
http://m.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3829149&csid=ITD&recordsPerPage=10&body=REVIEWS

take this fan hub/center design and just redesign the blades like the phanteks or sp120's wider blades..wouldnt this overcome the hub size issue?
both dave and..i hate to say it..Doyll is right...
if hub sizes were so important then a good example are the TY14..series fans.their hub is slightly larger than a standard 140mm fan..and their blades are wider..so take a fan like these all mentioned..change the hub to a bullet shape..add those notches from phanteks bkades..makem wider..and youve got a decent optimized SP 140mm fan design


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> True, however heatsink manufacturers usually fit the unit with fans that best fit/cover the size of the unit and obviously a 140mm sized unit will have more surface area/heatpipes etc. Until recently cases have largely been built around 120mm fan design. I believe it was the CaseLab Rep who said that interest and demand in 140mm fans has just recently begun to rise so maybe there will be some innovation and wider availability in140mm fan design.
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't think the same way. Only in this weird enthusiast market maybe but you don't gain anything extra but rather lose pressure compared to 120mm fans. As for the heatsinks it is best fit indeed as heat sinks usually are sparse enough for 140mm fans to flow freely even for 120mm intended designs.
> Some 140mm heatsinks are literally 120mm fan intended heatsinks with 140mm fans on them, lots of wasted space and any improvement may be from the heatsink re-design and not the fan.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> 140s have the advantage of more Airflow per RPM compared to 120s.
> 
> Though 120s have better SP per RPM.
> 
> Check manufacturers that offer both sizes for the specs..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> False. Their airflow is over an wider area and the increase in CFM is heavily offset by a larger corresponding decrease in static pressure.
> Remember, you're getting air towards components not trying to vent a case.
Click to expand...

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. What I am saying is that cooling improvement comes from increased surface dissipation area, more/larger heatpipes, (in other words the HS design) etc, not from going from 120mm to 140mm fans. I almost always opt for a 120mm fan when it can be fitted. Such as my silver Arrow. Intended for 140mm fans, I have fitted it with 120mm for higher SP.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I just don't think the same way. Only in this weird enthusiast market maybe but you don't gain anything extra but rather lose pressure compared to 120mm fans. As for the heatsinks it is best fit indeed as heat sinks usually are sparse enough for 140mm fans to flow freely even for 120mm intended designs.
> Some 140mm heatsinks are literally 120mm fan intended heatsinks with 140mm fans on them, lots of wasted space and any improvement may be from the heatsink re-design and not the fan.
> False. Their airflow is over an wider area and the increase in CFM is heavily offset by a larger corresponding decrease in static pressure.
> Remember, you're getting air towards components not trying to vent a case.


Why stop there, the same is true when the 120mm fan is compared to the 80mm fan. The 120mm fan does have less static pressure at the same volume of flow. The 120mm fan does has some advantages over the 80mm fan, and that is why they are preferred. Hub size does matter, many of the smaller more powerful fans have more hub than fan blade, but this offset by "the blades they do have are greater in number and pitch" . This trend is less and less as the fans sizes get larger.

A motor that is designed to reach its max RPM with very little effort will run cool and have great static pressure at the rated CFM. That is to say, the applied load has less of an effect on the RPMs. If a motor generally runs too hot, the motor designer can fix this problem with; a large Motor(hub) size, or a smaller wire gauge, or less fan blade area or pitch. If a motor generally runs too cool, the opposite is true. These factors are tuned with the fan's perceived opposition (load) in mind. This is the reason that motors that look exactly the same and are rated at the the same RPM, may have different amp ratings. It is a shame that the load the motor is design to handle is not in its statistics, the amp draw is the only tell-tell sign. My point is "All fans are subject to the same laws of mother nature".


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> to be fair, and as a layman, golden rule doesn't mean much to me, do we have any graphis or other evidence easily posted? because I am definitely under the impression that my 140mm fans perform better than the previous 120mm fans as far as cooling my case goes. And would this not also mean that there would be pretty much no difference between a 120mm and 140mm cpu cooler? Because benchmarks and forum advice tend to lean towards the 140mm units.
> 
> 
> 
> 140s have the advantage of more Airflow per RPM compared to 120s.
> 
> Though 120s have better SP per RPM.
> 
> Check manufacturers that offer both sizes for the specs..
Click to expand...

Unless they are commercial fans don't believe the manufactures' specifications. Too many exaggerate them and very few give a P/Q curve of performance.

I suggest using a reliable reviewer like Martin of |MartinsLiquidLab. Ed Hume, Hardware.FR and others who test fans on coolers or radiators to show how they perform or one with all the test equipment.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> True, however heatsink manufacturers usually fit the unit with fans that best fit/cover the size of the unit and obviously a 140mm sized unit will have more surface area/heatpipes etc. Until recently cases have largely been built around 120mm fan design. I believe it was the CaseLab Rep who said that interest and demand in 140mm fans has just recently begun to rise so maybe there will be some innovation and wider availability in140mm fan design.


Many cases have used 140mm fans for 5-8 years now. In computer industry's timeline that is not "recently". 8 year old components are like bronze age.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I just don't think the same way. Only in this weird enthusiast market maybe but you don't gain anything extra but rather lose pressure compared to 120mm fans. As for the heatsinks it is best fit indeed as heat sinks usually are sparse enough for 140mm fans to flow freely even for 120mm intended designs.


Sorry, but this is only an opinion with nothing substantiating it. If you take 120mm and 140mm fans of same design running at same speed with same resistance, the 140mm fan will move more air.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Some 140mm heatsinks are literally 120mm fan intended heatsinks with 140mm fans on them, lots of wasted space and any improvement may be from the heatsink re-design and not the fan.


So are they "120mm fan intended heatsinks" performing better with 140mm fans .. or "heatsink re-design" that performs better with 140mm fans?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> False. Their airflow is over an wider area and the increase in CFM is heavily offset by a larger corresponding decrease in static pressure.
> 
> Remember, you're getting air towards components not trying to vent a case.


No, both 120mm andr 140mm fans can have good CFM and static pressure with a good P/Q curve.

Here are a few tests comparisons of Scythe 120mm and 140mm fans of same / similar design and how they performed. Look at the data and make your own decision.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. What I am saying is that cooling improvement comes from increased surface dissipation area, more/larger heatpipes, (in other words the HS design) etc, not from going from 120mm to 140mm fans. I almost always opt for a 120mm fan when it can be fitted. Such as my silver Arrow. Intended for 140mm fans, I have fitted it with 120mm for higher SP.


We are looking at this Static Pressure thing from the wrong perspective.

If you use a 140mm to 120mm fan adaptor so that the 140mm fan has the same Static Pressure as a 120mm fan, Will this fix the 140mm fan to where you will like it.
If yes, lets put a 240mm fan on a 240mm to 80mm adaptor, this setup would have some unreal Static Pressure. It sounds good, but lets get past the physical aspects and lets explore what is technically wrong with this.

Let go to an extreme to see a point.
We have a 120mm x 280mm radiator. what will do a better job cooling the CPU?
Two 80mm 80CFM fans OR two 140mm 80CFM fans?
The two 80mm 80CFM fan will have a much higher Static Pressure, but will cool a much smaller area.
80 x 80 x 2 = 12800 , the two 80mm fans will cool 12,800 square millimeters of area.
A 120mm x 280mm radiator has 33,600 square millimeters of area.
What is more important, the 20,800 square millimeters of the wasted potential of the unused area of your radiator,
Or the increase in flow and Static Pressure of the two 80mm fans, in the small area that they effect?

I will give it to you that the difference between 120 and 140 is not as large,
with the 120s there is only 4.800 square millimeters of wasted radiator space.
Static Pressure counters the opposition of a load cause by the cooler's density.
If there is a sufficient flow and Static Pressure, "a larger cooling area" is more important.
If an increase in the Static Pressure of the 120s is not badly needed, the 140s larger flow area will serve you better.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. What I am saying is that cooling improvement comes from increased surface dissipation area, more/larger heatpipes, (in other words the HS design) etc, not from going from 120mm to 140mm fans. I almost always opt for a 120mm fan when it can be fitted. Such as my silver Arrow. Intended for 140mm fans, I have fitted it with 120mm for higher SP.
> 
> 
> 
> We are looking at this Static Pressure thing from the wrong perspective.
> 
> If you use a 140mm to 120mm fan adaptor so that the 140mm fan has the same Static Pressure as a 120mm fan, Will this fix the 140mm fan to where you will like it.
> If yes, lets put a 240mm fan on a 240mm to 80mm adaptor, this setup would have some unreal Static Pressure. I sounds good, but lets get past the physical aspects and lets explore what is technically wrong with this.
> 
> Let go to an extreme to see a point.
> We have a 120mm x 280mm radiator. what will do a better job cooling the CPU?
> Two 80mm 80CFM fans OR two 140mm 80CFM fans?
> The two 80mm 80CFM fan will have a much higher Static Pressure, but will cool a much smaller area.
> 80 x 80 x 2 = 12800 , the two 80mm fans will cool 12,800 square millimeters of area.
> A 120mm x 280mm radiator has 33,600 square millimeters of area.
> What is more important, the 20,800 square millimeters of the wasted potential of the unused area of your radiator,
> Or the increase in flow and Static Pressure of the two 80mm fans, in the small area that they effect?
> 
> I will give it to you that the difference between 120 and 140 is not as large,
> with the 120s there is only 4.800 square millimeters of wasted radiator space.
> Static Pressure counters the opposition of a load cause by the cooler's density.
> If there is a sufficient flow and Static Pressure, "a larger cooling area" is more important.
> If an increase in the Static Pressure of the 120s is not badly needed, the 140s larger flow area will serve you better.
Click to expand...

That's a great point.

The problem for me and I'm sure others are all the variables. For example using 120mm and 140mm versions of the same Cougar Vortex fans applied to my Silver Arrow, I get a better result with the 120mm versions. While there is a tangible reason why, Getting to it is nearly impossible.

Blade shape

Pitch

speed

angle

Hub

case flow/type

SP

CFM

Fin density

etc...etc

In the two builds I am working on now I have several traditional 'no-no's in the cooling systems, but they work and work very well despite what you have there making perfect sense and this being one of the most informative forums here.









@ Doyll

Quote:


> Many cases have used 140mm fans for 5-8 years now. In computer industry's timeline that is not "recently". 8 year old components are like bronze age.


True, that's why I said "largely based on 120mm" fans







apparently 140mm based cases/rads are gaining traction.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> True, that's why I said "largely based on 120mm" fans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apparently 140mm based cases/rads are gaining traction.


I think it has a lot to do with more good 140mm fans becoming available .. although several have been for some time. 2x 140mm fans will move about the same air as 3x 120mm fans of same design and rpm.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> That's a great point.
> The problem for me and I'm sure others are all the variables. For example using 120mm and 140mm versions of the same Cougar Vortex fans applied to my Silver Arrow, I get a better result with the 120mm versions. While there is a tangible reason why, Getting to it is nearly impossible.


Not really, approach it systematically.
Is the fan the problem, or is it the radiator? I am assuming you have a 140 x 280 radiator.
Buy two of these 120mm to 140mm fan adaptors.
Try the 140s on the adaptors. If the temperatures run at 120 fan levels, the radiator is optimized for 120mm fans.
Or you could try it the other way, with the120s on the adaptors. If the temperatures run at 140 fan levels, the radiator is optimized for 120mm fans.
If the adaptors make no difference, the 140mm fan is poorly designed. If the two fans look basically the same, that eliminates everything except for the gauge of the wire in its windings. 140 fan needs a large gauge wire in its windings.
This is assuming that the specs between the two fans were close. What exact models are you talking about?


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> That's a great point.
> The problem for me and I'm sure others are all the variables. For example using 120mm and 140mm versions of the same Cougar Vortex fans applied to my Silver Arrow, I get a better result with the 120mm versions. While there is a tangible reason why, Getting to it is nearly impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, approach it systematically.
> Is the fan the problem, or is it the radiator? I am assuming you have a 140 x 280 radiator.
> Buy two of these 120mm to 140mm fan adaptors.
> Try the 140s on the adaptors. If the temperatures run at 120 fan levels, the radiator is optimized for 120mm fans.
> Or you could try it the other way, with the120s on the adaptors. If the temperatures run at 140 fan levels, the radiator is optimized for 120mm fans.
> If the adaptors make no difference, the 140mm fan is poorly designed. If the two fans look basically the same, that eliminates everything except for the gauge of the wire in its windings. 140 fan needs a large gauge wire in its windings.
> This is assuming that the specs between the two fans were close. What exact models are you talking about?
Click to expand...

Hey Luke,

I was speaking more macro level. I try several approaches and get it up and effectively cooling. I mean a linear formula approach. As I mentioned in the two builds I am working now I have several traditional cooling 'don'ts' that I indeed approached systematically and now have terrific results ( and I build a quadfire machine for my use every 9-12 months that needs cooling) I just can't recommend to others because they are system specific.


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Hard drives need air to brush them so that they do not sit there and cook in there own heat. The flow does not need to be substantial.
> However, substantial flow will not hurt them if it is needed to build a beneficial flow path for other devices.
> 
> Push-pull means; The push fan pushes air into an enclosure (case radiator or HDD bay),
> and the pull fan exits air from that same enclosure (case radiator or HDD bay),
> Where-as both fans are moving air in the same direction through that enclosure.
> ALSO a fan creating a vacuum in an enclosure is considered a pull fan,
> and a fan creating pressure in an enclosure is considered a push fan.
> 
> do I benefit when I use static pressure (corsair SP)optimized fans
> There are a lot variables that change from config to config,
> so no one can gave you a definitive answer.
> If you read back a few post, there is a lot of info on pos and neg case pressure,
> so I am not going to repeat that content; this is only one of the variables.
> That case you show normally benefits from weak entrance fans on the side,
> How-ever this is dependent on the rest of your flow configuration.
> Experimentation is the only way you will find the perfect answer.


is this what you meant with push pull?



also does it matter that the fans need strong static pressure from the pulling side (where there is no obstacle only hot air to be pulled out) as from what I understand static pressure rating of a fan is the capability to output air through obstacles (rads,heatsinks,HD cages,obstacles etc) wouldn't airflow optimized fans serve better as they can push a lot of unrestricted air (hot air) out of the case or am I missing something?



thanks for giving time for replying my early inquiry BTW


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> is this what you meant with push pull?


Yes, This is one form of push-pull.
I like to have the intake and exhaust fans paths farther apart than that because the shown configuration recirculates the same air in a loop, and the air gets hotter and hotter. It does this because there is a high pressure area in front of a running fan, and a low pressure area behind it. Since the high and low pressures are so close to one-another; the high pressure area will feed the low pressure area, both inside and outside the case and create a loop. You'd think that fans this close would feed each other a little, but as you can see, this is not true. It's a lot more serious than that, they feed each other a lot.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> also does it matter that the fans need strong static pressure from the pulling side (where there is no obstacle only hot air to be pulled out) as from what I understand static pressure rating of a fan is the capability to output air through obstacles (rads,heatsinks,HD cages,obstacles etc) wouldn't airflow optimized fans serve better as they can push a lot of unrestricted air (hot air) out of the case or am I missing something?


You didn't miss a thing, you are dead on, on all points. I'm not real particular about my case fans, they just need to move air.
This is not true if filters are used; in that circumstance, intake fans that have a filter in-front of them need to be strong.
I do want my CPU cooling fans to be kick-butt,
Good Blade area and power on a PWM fan will give you controllably strong static pressure even at lower RPMs.
This is why the 38 x120mm Deltas work so well.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> thanks for giving time for replying my early inquiry BTW


You're welcome, no worries.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Yes, This is one form of push-pull.
> I like to have the intake and exhaust fans paths farther apart than that because the shown configuration recirculates the same air in a loop, and the air gets hotter and hotter. It does this because there is a high pressure area in front of a running fan, and a low pressure area behind it. Since the high and low pressures are so close to one-another; the high pressure area will feed the low pressure area, both inside and outside the case and create a loop.


When I say push-pull ... that ISN'T pushpull. That's something I work to AVOID in my air cooling guide.
Push-pull is 1 fan in front another fan behind the HDD cage.


----------



## Vario

Push pull is a fan sandwich, one fan in front of heatsink pushing into it and one fan behind the heatsink pulling away from it.

Static pressure is important for both fans. The front fan needs a powerful enough motor to push air through the obstruction and the back fan needs to have a powerful enough motor to pull air through the obstruction.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Push pull is a fan sandwich, one fan in front of heatsink pushing into it and one fan behind the heatsink pulling away from it.
> 
> Static pressure is important for both fans. The front fan needs a powerful enough motor to push air through the obstruction and the back fan needs to have a powerful enough motor to pull air through the obstruction.


Yes unlike what most think that push-pull eliminates the need for a higher pressure fan this is actually the truth.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> When I say push-pull ... that ISN'T pushpull. That's something I work to AVOID in my air cooling guide.
> Push-pull is 1 fan in front another fan behind the HDD cage.


A cage is an enclosure.
You say this as an opinion with no facts to back you.

"The push fan pushes air into an enclosure (case radiator cooler or HDD bay),
and the pull fan exits air from that same enclosure (case radiator cooler or HDD bay),
Where-as both fans are moving air, in the same direction through that enclosure".
I say this as a definition, because it is logical and these same rules apply to all enclosures.

They are all subject to positive and negative internal pressure.
They are all subject to looping if the fans are too close and not partitioned (as on a four fan radiator in opposing directions).
They all have a fan (or fans) pushing air in, and a different fan (or fans) pulling air out. The function is to move cool air into, and kick the hot air out of an enclosure.
To use the words in-out, inter-exit, intake-exhaust, push-pull, you do so when discussing the function of an enclosure (container, cage, bay, case, radiator, cooler )
You say "Push-pull is 1 fan in front another fan", AND "one fan in front another fan behind the HDD cage", We call that "a fan stack".
For Push-pull, we must have something in-between the two fans that (as a function) we are moving air through.
If you are saying that the flow through path must be in a straight line, this is also not true.
One fan in front of the HDD cage, and another on the side of the cage, is still push-pull just as much is if the second fan is instead behind the cage.

When you say push-pull, you may never do so when discussing a case, but a case does fall within the definition.
You also appear to have the definitions of "a fan stack" and "a push-pull configuration" confused. They are not the same thing.


----------



## doyll

Fans have to be almost worthless for push / pull to make much of a difference in performance .. or what they are pushing / pulling through is very restrictive. Most applications only gain 1-3c by going push / pull over single fan, even on twin towers .. and the faster the fans spin the less a 2nd fan helps performance.

Edit:
Good explanation of push / pull Luke.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Fans have to be almost worthless for push / pull to make much of a difference in performance .. or what they are pushing / pulling through is very restrictive. Most applications only gain 1-3c by going push / pull over single fan, even on twin towers .. and the faster the fans spin the less a 2nd fan helps performance.
> 
> Edit:
> Good explanation of push / pull Luke.


Thank you.
I have seen lots of test on this, and they all agree with you.
We are only talking like 2 degrees cooler with the second set of fans, that's not much.
The general consensus is; If you need more fan. you are better off up-grading.
The push pull configs do look cool though. It's a shame they're not as functional as they look.
The same can be said of fan stacks.


----------



## DaveLT

Not so useful on a heatsink but useful for a HDD cage. Just look at how restrictive those buggers are when completely filled!


----------



## BakerMan1971

got my learning hat on in this thread, time to really look into what fans I get for my March 2015 x99 build once I finally settle on a case, right now the Lian Li D600 (cube) vs Corsair Air 540, Lian Li because its beautiful Aluminium, vs the proven 540 for great airflow....


----------



## X-PREDATOR

why not just make your own case?







i plan on doin a extreme case/desk type build one day with minimum 12 intakes and 6 out


----------



## BakerMan1971

Haha erm. My crafting skills leave quite a lot to be desired


----------



## X-PREDATOR

so does mine...hehehehehehehehe hahahahahaaha...ive got a 2.2m long desk begging to be modified.i was goin to do it last year but had other responsibilities..so funds went sideways to the family..

ok seing this is aircooliing talk..Doyll uses Cryorg..now from what i heard these guys are from 4 + diff people from dif Manufacturers who left their previous jobs to from the Cryorg name..now my ????? when will they hit overseas shores..i want to compare these fans myself to others:thumb:


----------



## BakerMan1971

Top of my list is a Phanteks TCH14(thingy part number job) 140mm Twin tower cooler.
Its been out a heck of a time, but has consistently been at the top of Air coolers for the past couple of years.

The Cryorig is interesting, but I notice that the plastic shrouds appear to expand out sideways, and with x99 there is already a space problem where the top PCI-E x16 slot is concerned, so the Termalright True Spirit 140 that I still have in its box won't fit that board either


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> why not just make your own case?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i plan on doin a extreme case/desk type build one day with minimum 12 intakes and 6 out


Great idea, there are some awesome radiators out there that will not fit in any known case



This is an "Alphacool NexXxoS Monsta Triple 180mm Radiator"
It is 585 x 182 x 85mm (23 x 7.2 x 3.4 inches), and is made of copper and brass.
This is slightly







, even though it is air cooled. Forgive me Dave!!!!

.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

cool...well thats the idea..two pcs inside one desk..each will have theeir own compartments and so forth:thumb:

ive got a phanteks cooler..and yes it destroys temps with or without proper fans low or high rpm..i run all my fans at 25% except in summer time i up it to 50% and if it gets to hot i just dont use the pc..i was talking about the fans from cryorg..they look sexy and seem to be fairly decent...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Great idea, there are some awesome radiators out there that will not fit in any known case
> 
> 
> 
> This is an "Alphacool NexXxoS Monsta Triple 180mm Radiator"
> It is 585 x 182 x 85mm (23 x 7.2 x 3.4 inches), and is made of copper and brass.
> This is slightly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , even though it is air cooled. Forgive me Dave!!!!
> 
> .


Ha. I wouldn't care if it's "Water cooling or not" because it is technically still Air cooling. And my business revolves around water cooling so I can chip in!
BTW, that fits in an NZXT Switch 810 easily with the fan in the roof and caselabs cases EASILY. (If it's the 360 of course ...)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> Top of my list is a Phanteks TCH14(thingy part number job) 140mm Twin tower cooler.
> Its been out a heck of a time, but has consistently been at the top of Air coolers for the past couple of years.
> 
> The Cryorig is interesting, but I notice that the plastic shrouds appear to expand out sideways, and with x99 there is already a space problem where the top PCI-E x16 slot is concerned, so the Termalright True Spirit 140 that I still have in its box won't fit that board either


I love that phanteks man. Pity not many are buying it. Speaking of fitting problems nothing compares to trying to install a V8 GTS on a R4BE (one guy for testing) the ineptitude of the designers of the mounting shows strongly on that board.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> Top of my list is a Phanteks TCH14(thingy part number job) 140mm Twin tower cooler.
> Its been out a heck of a time, but has consistently been at the top of Air coolers for the past couple of years.
> 
> The Cryorig is interesting, but I notice that the plastic shrouds appear to expand out sideways, and with x99 there is already a space problem where the top PCI-E x16 slot is concerned, so the Termalright True Spirit 140 that I still have in its box won't fit that board either


I assume you mean the PH-TC14PE? It is 140mm wide so 70mm center CPU to PCI-e side of cooler.

Might look around at the X99 mobos. Pretty sure Gigabyte X99-UD4 is at least 72mm center CPU to side of PCI-e socket .. and Asus X99 Deluxe is about 78mm.

Too bad the X99 mobo doesn't have room. TRUIE Spirit 140 variants are very wide at 155mm wide (77.5mm center CPU to side of cooler). Cryorig R1s are 140mm (70mm center CPU to side of cooler). Silver Arrow IB-E is 155mm wide, but just under 68mm from center CPU to side of cooler. New Archon IB-E is also 155mm wide, but only 69mm center CPU to side of cooler. There is a new TRUE Spirit 140 (BW) Rev. A releasing soon that is 155mm wide and 69mm center CPU to side. HR-22 is


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Ha. I wouldn't care if it's "Water cooling or not" because it is technically still Air cooling. And my business revolves around water cooling so I can chip in!
> BTW, that fits in an NZXT Switch 810 easily with the fan in the roof and caselabs cases EASILY. (If it's the 360 of course ...)


No, it's more than twice the size of any 360 radiator ever made.
That one takes THREE 180mm fans, so it's a *540*,
It's 585mm long and 85mm thick
The small one beside it is a 480, it takes four 120mm fans.
it's 522mm long and 60mm thick

The two pictured.
Alphacool NexXxoS Monsta Triple 180mm Radiator
Alphacool NexXxoS UT60 Full Copper Quad 120mm Radiator

This one is my favorite
XSPC RX360 Triple 120mm Radiator V3 - Matte Black
Here is why.
[Bundymania User Review] Triple Radiator (360) Roundup with 22 Rads !


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> No, that one takes THREE 180mm fans, so it's a *540*, the little one beside it is a 480.


Wasn't talking about the triple 180 bro. I know it's a triple 180 yes but I wasn't talking about it
480 ... 60mm thick lol.


----------



## BakerMan1971

Cheers Doyll

I am actually grabbing the MSI X99S SLI, a: its cheap and b: its all black and so far users seem to be happy with it (got time on my side though).


----------



## doyll

No problem. Doesn't MSI X99S SLI, only have 6 PCI-e sockets? No slot just below the I/O on back of case is blank? Some call that slot 1, some call it 7.

If that is true your TRUE Spirit will fit.









Phanteks PH-TC14PE is a great cooler I've been running one sense they were first released.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> No problem. Doesn't MSI X99S SLI, only have 6 PCI-e sockets? No slot just below the I/O on back of case is blank? Some call that slot 1, some call it 7.
> 
> If that is true your TRUE Spirit will fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phanteks PH-TC14PE is a great cooler I've been running one sense they were first released.


Looking around X99 ATX boards (I think like the X99-Deluxe) have their DRAM moved lower.
Also I'm not sure it will fit as the whole CPU socket seems to have been moved lower as well.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

I got a asrock oc formula in today and I don't know why anyone would buy anything else


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> I got a asrock oc formula in today and I don't know why anyone would buy anything else


because they don't have the same rep as Asus ROG?

I have also been looking at that Mobo. 1200 Watts of Power Delivery with 12 Power Phases.









But for Air-Coolers, I think most X99 Motherboards will have clearance issues with larger HeatSinks.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> I got a asrock oc formula in today and I don't know why anyone would buy anything else


I don't even know why anyone would buy an ASRock to be honest.
Gigabyte plz


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Looking around X99 ATX boards (I think like the X99-Deluxe) have their DRAM moved lower.
> Also I'm not sure it will fit as the whole CPU socket seems to have been moved lower as well.


As long as RAM is of reasonable height it shouldn't matter that the RAM sockets are moved lower. As for the CPU socket, there is no standard for it's placement either. But the removal of the top PCI-e socket increases the distance from CPU to PCI-e by a little over 20mm .. and that makes a big difference to the cooler clearance.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> As long as RAM is of reasonable height it shouldn't matter that the RAM sockets are moved lower. As for the CPU socket, there is no standard for it's placement either. But the removal of the top PCI-e socket increases the distance from CPU to PCI-e by a little over 20mm .. and that makes a big difference to the cooler clearance.


There hasn't even got space for any PCI-E slot with the RAM slot moved down a notch


----------



## X-PREDATOR

I don't even know why anyone
would buy an ASRock to be
honest.
Gigabyte plz

@dave -becuase the engineers behind asrock was/were & is asus...a couple of asus' people left the brand a few years ago when asrock was founded..they started their own brand/company..so essentialy it may be a different layout..board..name..ect..but at the heart of it are asus engineers..


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> I got a asrock oc formula in today and I don't know why anyone would buy anything else


because I'd only buy DFI, that's why


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> I don't even know why anyone
> would buy an ASRock to be
> honest.
> Gigabyte plz
> 
> @dave -becuase the engineers behind asrock was/were & is asus...a couple of asus' people left the brand a few years ago when asrock was founded..they started their own brand/company..so essentialy it may be a different layout..board..name..ect..but at the heart of it are asus engineers..


Heart are EX-ASUS engineers but it still stands that I would not approach ASRock boards without a stick. And I'm not sure about most of ASUS's boards either ...
ASRock = In my experience they go *BOOM* sometimes and not exactly stable BIOSes either. besides most of their mobos are budget with good reason. Budget build quality doesn't fancy me tastes

I also stay well clear of ASUS for cheap boards. ASRock started as a spin off but they are separate now. They didn't leave ASUS.


----------



## BakerMan1971

far too much 'brand loyalty' going on here, after building pc's for 20 years, let me just assure you that any of them are equally as good and as bad as each other.
ASRock are a spin off from ASUS anyway initially doing budget boards but then developing their own premium brand, which is very impressive.

I suppose I had better stop there and say BIOSTAR maybe aren't as good, but even they have been working on improving quality and their Z87 and Z97 offerings have been well done.

anyway enough rambling.
I have a friend who has already bought his MSI x99s sli, and he got the old tape measure out 110mm between the first two ram slots either side of the CPU, and just enough room for a 140mm cooler before the first PCI-E slot, (although I need him to tell me the measurement as he forgot to include the numbers there).

I will be going with the Phanteks, because Why not?







my True Spirit will no doubt come in handy when someone needs an emergency cooler (it happens) and their board fits it.
















Thanks for all the help guys and now back to which fans are best, we need a broader list too, because some of us do want nice looks too, and wonder exactly how bad mainstream enthusiast/gamer fans can actually be.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> far too much 'brand loyalty' going on here, after building pc's for 20 years, let me just assure you that any of them are equally as good and as bad as each other.
> ASRock are a spin off from ASUS anyway initially doing budget boards but then developing their own premium brand, which is very impressive.
> 
> I suppose I had better stop there and say BIOSTAR maybe aren't as good, but even they have been working on improving quality and their Z87 and Z97 offerings have been well done.
> 
> anyway enough rambling.
> I have a friend who has already bought his MSI x99s sli, and he got the old tape measure out 110mm between the first two ram slots either side of the CPU, and just enough room for a 140mm cooler before the first PCI-E slot, (although I need him to tell me the measurement as he forgot to include the numbers there).
> *snip*.


I agree. There are low cost and high cost mobos, and usually the higher cost ones are more dependable .. but not always.

I just scaled X99S SLI Plus to have 80mm from side of PCI-e socket to center CPU and 110mm between RAM socket sides .. basically same as your friend's RAM measurement and plenty of room for cooler up to about 160mm wide with centered base.


----------



## BakerMan1971

Thanks for that, maybe I will give the True Spirit a shot, it is a great cooler in a now dusty box due to my mAtx Gryphon purchase









Now thoughts on the Corsair Air series (LINK) I wish to have purple lighting in my system from the fans, if that is a really (and I mean really) bad idea, then maybe I have to resign myself to standard black fans with purple LED's mounted separately.


----------



## Luke Cool

I bought two Asrock deluxes and two I7-920 for friend's builds,
both Asrock motherboards went bad just after a year.
These were premium "top of the line" expensive ($300) motherboards.
I expected more. This left a bad taste in my mouth.
They are consistent, I avoid Asrock..


----------



## BakerMan1971

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I bought two Asrock deluxes and two I7-920 for friend's builds,
> both Asrock motherboards went bad just after a year.
> These were premium "top of the line" expensive ($300) motherboards.
> I expected more. This left a bad taste in my mouth.
> They are consistent, I avoid Asrock..


back in the i7-920 days was when ASRock had not been around very long, and were still a budget spin off. Sandy Bridge onwards, you can't knock their performance, stability and quality.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

true..their earlier models had issues..same as other brands...
any board can have major issues..it all comes down to how the users handles it..
and how the board was made..well even the mighty ROG boards has their down sides...
but ill take msi any day over any other maker...1reason..ive had a setup for 7years with a msi board..and not once ive had an issue with bios or performence..ahh.the good old lga775 days..and i still have this setup and use it for work stuff and so forth.

back to fans..

.dave..how and what yo think of the Cougar vortex fans?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> true..their earlier models had issues..same as other brands...
> any board can have major issues..it all comes down to how the users handles it..
> and how the board was made..well even the mighty ROG boards has their down sides...
> but ill take msi any day over any other maker...1reason..ive had a setup for 7years with a msi board..and not once ive had an issue with bios or performence..ahh.the good old lga775 days..and i still have this setup and use it for work stuff and so forth.
> 
> back to fans..
> 
> .dave..how and what yo think of the Cougar vortex fans?


MSI .... Good luck with their mid-range boards even. I wouldn't dare buy any X79 boards from them. Z97 PC Mate seems like a really good value board though. But their BIOS sucks big time from what I've used.

Rubbish fans with overblown specs once again. All the looks none of the performance. I said it time and time again the cougar vortexes get on my nerves repeatedly


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> MSI .... Good luck with their mid-range boards even. I wouldn't dare buy any X79 boards from them. Z97 PC Mate seems like a really good value board though. But their BIOS sucks big time from what I've used.


were they still using the "nikos"?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> were they still using the "nikos"?


They better not be


----------



## doyll

[quote name="DaveLT" url="/t/1394467/ocn-daves-air-cooling-guide-updated/1200_20#post_22869486"
There hasn't even got space for any PCI-E slot with the RAM slot moved down a notch







[/quote]
You are correct!
Why are you pointing that out?

Expansion socket placement has industry standard for position (as does I/O area) while RAM and CPU socket placement are where designer puts them. Many motherboards have PCI-e 1x top socket, now some are putting no top PCI-e socket on for more CPU clearance and as a result, can move the RAM lower. .


----------



## X-PREDATOR

yeah i hear ya dave..but then why do those who do use them only praise the good results?

boards...in my opinion..they could rather have moved from ddr3 to ddr5 ram for desktop..and..change the sizes from these huge ram sticks..to the size of laptop ram modules..now that will..1-solve space issues.
2.instead of multiple ram slots taking up space on both sides of cpu socket..it can utilize the normal 4slots space..but have 8slots..just smaller..
i know..it sounds stupid..but in my region a 16gb ddr ram kit nearly costs the same /more than a 5930k and even close to the X
version...so why jump to ddr4..when ddr5 is even 10*times faster...
i mean..1gb ddr5 is = to almost 4gb ddr3 ram speed maybe more? so just think..amagine it..you would only need like 8gb ram ddr5 ever..never more..less ram..more speed...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> yeah i hear ya dave..but then why do those who do use them only praise the good results?
> 
> boards...in my opinion..they could rather have moved from ddr3 to ddr5 ram for desktop..and..change the sizes from these huge ram sticks..to the size of laptop ram modules..now that will..1-solve space issues.
> 2.instead of multiple ram slots taking up space on both sides of cpu socket..it can utilize the normal 4slots space..but have 8slots..just smaller..
> i know..it sounds stupid..but in my region a 16gb ddr ram kit nearly costs the same /more than a 5930k and even close to the X
> version...so why jump to ddr4..when ddr5 is even 10*times faster...
> i mean..1gb ddr5 is = to almost 4gb ddr3 ram speed maybe more? so just think..amagine it..you would only need like 8gb ram ddr5 ever..never more..less ram..more speed...


That's GDDR5 not DDR5. DDR5 is non-existent and GDDR5 has a massive amount of latency. And their addressing modes are entirely different and GDDR5 are hyper expensive for the capacities we use








More RAM speed doesn't mean you can use less RAM.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> There hasn't even got space for any PCI-E slot with the RAM slot moved down a notch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct!
> Why are you pointing that out?
> 
> Expansion socket placement has industry standard for position (as does I/O area) while RAM and CPU socket placement are where designer puts them. Many motherboards have PCI-e 1x top socket, now some are putting no top PCI-e socket on for more CPU clearance and as a result, can move the RAM lower. .
Click to expand...

I'm pointing it out because of what I'm noticing ... the removal of the top slot.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

yeah ok...but you get/understood what i meant..if they use gpu ddr5 ram for desktop ram...wont that be just awsome..?
i mean if i see how great some 1gb gddr5 gpus still perform..like my 560..as an example..wont that be a good move in the future for ram development?
of course it wont hobble how
much ram users choose to use..but it would be flippen fast..and im just saying..if 2gb of this gddr5 (ddr5 in the future) is = to 4/8gb ddr3 ram at same speed/clocks..then to me it makes sense...less amount of ram needed but more performence..
just think..use your imagination if you must..
next gen tech X111 chipsets..16core cpus with a minimum base clock of 5ghz..boost of 6ghz...32gb ddr5 each stick at 2ghz..4 gpus running @ 2ghz base clocks each 3ghz boost with 12gb gpu vram on 1ghz ram busses...
sounds stupid..but too me it sounds like heavan..and alot more enthusiast than current tech...im a firm believer that manufacturers make their items with faults and performence knee caps on purpose..because their afraid to unleash the full potential already at hand


----------



## X-PREDATOR

mobo layout issues are on all the x99 boards..evga also..i think the manufacturers shouldve gone with a slightly bigger layout pcb for these boards..and 4ram slots instead of 8..
skip to the 1min mark

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=whKB8YvB14w&itct=CDYQpDAYASITCKWcydOs78ACFcQNwgod2xoAeVITamF5IFogdHdvIGNlbnRzIFg5OQ%3D%3D&hl=en-GB&client=mv-google&gl=ZA

but sure looks awsome..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> yeah ok...but you get/understood what i meant..if they use gpu ddr5 ram for desktop ram...wont that be just awsome..?
> i mean if i see how great some 1gb gddr5 gpus still perform..like my 560..as an example..wont that be a good move in the future for ram development?
> of course it wont hobble how
> much ram users choose to use..but it would be flippen fast..and im just saying..if 2gb of this gddr5 (ddr5 in the future) is = to 4/8gb ddr3 ram at same speed/clocks..then to me it makes sense...less amount of ram needed but more performence..
> just think..use your imagination if you must..
> next gen tech X111 chipsets..16core cpus with a minimum base clock of 5ghz..boost of 6ghz...32gb ddr5 each stick at 2ghz..4 gpus running @ 2ghz base clocks each 3ghz boost with 12gb gpu vram on 1ghz ram busses...
> sounds stupid..but too me it sounds like heavan..and alot more enthusiast than current tech...im a firm believer that manufacturers make their items with faults and performence knee caps on purpose..because their afraid to unleash the full potential already at hand


What are you on? Seriously. Graphics is graphics. You're comparing oranges to cherries. It's the limit of their process manufacturing, if you want to know more please go study semiconductor electronics, it's not EASY.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> mobo layout issues are on all the x99 boards..evga also..i think the manufacturers shouldve gone with a slightly bigger layout pcb for these boards..and 4ram slots instead of 8..
> skip to the 1min mark


Everyone would be complaining asking why the mobos got BIGGER when they should have gone smaller
Progress bro


----------



## X-PREDATOR

"What are you on? "

dreams..whats wrong with dreaming ..and not to burts the bubble..but how old are you?me..no son..me is the sun...the alfa..omega.and the beta (joke)
im just a realy big dreamer Dave..and in my world..paying 6K for ram is outragous for only marginal gains...
why would they complain//my current board is atx..but a bit wider and longer then standard atx..and im not complaining,,im glad..otherwise it wouldve interfered with my gpus backside..as it is now the new X99 boards couldve done the same..just added 1cm to the W and L making that 1st PCIE slot further away from the socket erea....yeah im dum..every1 on OCN tells me all the time..so go ahead and say it same as those...
and manufacturer process can do what i suggested..they just dont see the need for it yet....

ok back to fans please...youre correct in saying earlier to me that the BladeMasters are crap...my bud has two on his seidon...and they make the horrible noises and start up...ive got the two new ones still sitting here..not gpoing to use them anytime soon..going to givem away:thumb:


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Who're you getting your pot off?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> "What are you on? "
> 
> dreams..whats wrong with dreaming ..and not to burts the bubble..but how old are you?me..no son..me is the sun...the alfa..omega.and the beta :


who do you get your pot off?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Who're you getting your pot off?
> who do you get your pot off?


All I got running through my mind is that ... I want some of what he is on. PCP perhaps?


----------



## Vario

Dave, do you have a fan controller you recommend that can reliably drive server fans and doesn't buzz?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Dave, do you have a fan controller you recommend that can reliably drive server fans and doesn't buzz?


Maybe the logisys 6 channel. Had been using it for some time and it works fine, no longer using it because I don't need it anymore but I still have it stored in a box. (I have showed one of them in my Sentry 3 review)
Unless ya wanna spend a bomb on AQCs which is a NO obviously. Or lamptrons FCs just not the cheap looking ones. Maybe FC5v2. I may suggest the CF525 but that uses a old design in them and with potentially unglued inductors I doubt it will tick the "buzz-free operation" point that we both want.
And I won't suggest NZXT because they are incapable of releasing a remotely decent FC. Who'd have expected the Sentry 3 to be worse than the Sentry 2? Not me.

Maybe luciel will pop in and answer? Oh yes @Luciel, please ask your designers to make a pure PWM only fan controller.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

i did say afterwards (JOKE)..
gees you guys are way to serious..chill out..
if i was on meds still it wouldve been
nuzak & prozak & brufen 1000mg...ect..and a bunch of other stuff for my other issues...haha..
maybe you guys should be the ones on meds...theres nothing wrong with thinking out loud...or is there?

dave..what you think of my earlier suggestion on the fan hub/design?


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They are very very loud and are outperformed by a delta wfb1212m at least the SP120 PWM ones.
> 
> If san ace is thin ... i don't know what is thick. They have easily the thickest blades of those I own


I think he might be referring to the 25mm thick versions? Those versions have thinner blades. The 38mm versions though are pretty thick blades.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I don't even know why anyone would buy an ASRock to be honest.
> Gigabyte plz


For the past few generations, the Asrock OC Formula series (Z77, Z87, and Z97) have been very solid boards. The engineering team behind them has done a pretty good job overall and it's a solid board for day to day use.

I would however recommend avoiding the cheapest of the Asrock boards, which do have a history of issues. Asrock does sometimes cut costs, hide components, and use a thinner PCB, but it's only an issue on the thinnest of boards.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> far too much 'brand loyalty' going on here, after building pc's for 20 years, let me just assure you that any of them are equally as good and as bad as each other.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I agree. There are low cost and high cost mobos, and usually the higher cost ones are more dependable .. but not always.
> 
> I just scaled X99S SLI Plus to have 80mm from side of PCI-e socket to center CPU and 110mm between RAM socket sides .. basically same as your friend's RAM measurement and plenty of room for cooler up to about 160mm wide with centered base.


All of the brands seem to have their ups and downs these days.

Generally speaking, I go for the overclocking series of boards, because whatever else, they tend to have very high quality VRMs and typically there's a lot more attention devoted to their BIOS, because of the glamor associated with setting world records and the like. That typically means a more stable BIOS. Another benefit is that any features that interfere with overclocking are not there. On the downside they tend to be more expensive boards, although the OC boards from Gigabyte and Asrock indicate a positive direction of a relatively stripped down board with enough to function for daily use, but very strong VRM.

High end gaming boards though, I tend to avoid, unless they have an outstanding BIOS. Plus most of the features tend to be "gaming oriented", which means they are often gimmicks. Annoyingly, high end overclocking boards often get a lot of gimmicks. One positive development at MSI, Gigabyte, and Asrock though is they've separated their gaming and OC boards. Asus has not with its ROG lineup.

Also avoid getting boards just after they launch. You never know which boards have a good BIOS, need a revision 2.0, or have some huge undiscovered flaw.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Dave, do you have a fan controller you recommend that can reliably drive server fans and doesn't buzz?


The newer Lamptrons are pretty good. The CF525 in particular is a model worth exploring as its corrected the buzzing issue of the older boards and it's a relatively simply no-frills model. Delivers 300 watts in 5 channels at 60 watts per channel, so even most industrial fans ought to be fine.


----------



## DaveLT

I'm not entirely sure carrying 300W off a SINGLE molex header won't overheat and catch fire


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'm not entirely sure carrying 300W off a SINGLE molex header won't overheat and catch fire


This Data is from the manufacturer.
A Molex-8981 connector is rated for (this is not combined, it's the 12 volt line only)
18 AWG - 08 AMPS - 96 watts
16 AWG - 10 AMPS - 120 watts
14 AWG - 10 AMPS - 120 watts.
I, like Dave, hope that it is using more than one 12 volt line, otherwise, it catching fire is highly probable.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Maybe luciel will pop in and answer? Oh yes @Luciel, please ask your designers to make a pure PWM only fan controller.


how bout me, dropping off me resume


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> how bout me, dropping off me resume


One that generates PWM... If I could be bothered to make one I would


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> how bout me, dropping off me resume


Looks nice. 3-pin has rpm, but 4-pin doesn't. Why no rpm pass-through? Or is it not a voltage to PWM converter?
And what sources are compatible for it to read and convert? Some boards are variable 3-speed voltage, some are PWM 12v, etc.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Looks nice. 3-pin has rpm, but 4-pin doesn't. Why no rpm pass-through? Or is it not a voltage to PWM converter?
> And what sources are compatible for it to read and convert? Some boards are variable 3-speed voltage, some are PWM 12v, etc.


it's not like what you thought.
it's what Dave asked on his previous post.

like I said, I just came to drop my resume.
just in case, all the engineers were suddenly went busy









come on, with what you always suggested to every single soul on this forum, you should be able to figure out what it is


----------



## BakerMan1971

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> it's not like what you thought.
> it's what Dave asked on his previous post.
> 
> like I said, I just came to drop my resume.
> just in case, all the engineers were suddenly went busy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> come on, with what you always suggested to every single soul on this forum, you should be able to figure out what it is


Ok I am seriously no expert on things like this but if I saw that in the fan section of a parts shop, I would think it was an inline pwm to voltage/speed adjuster for 3 pin fans where you have a pwm header on the mobo.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BakerMan1971*
> 
> Ok I am seriously no expert on things like this but if I saw that in the fan section of a parts shop, I would think it was an inline pwm to voltage/speed adjuster for 3 pin fans where you have a pwm header on the mobo.


I'm sorry Phanteks gang, you guys guessed it wrong again








just relax, you won't find it in any shop









I never get along with the idea of converting the pwm of the mobo's cpu fan header so it can controlling the 3p fan(s).
I thought I might bump into something like this and waste my efforts.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1505404/guide-convert-3-pin-fan-to-pwm-56k-warning-courtesy-of-lazzer408/40#post_22874018

oh well, I did tried it once on a 5v sunon fan and threw the towel not long afterwards.
and I've turned my last 3p fan to a shroud, anyway


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> I'm sorry Phanteks gang, you guys guessed it wrong again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just relax, you won't find it in any shop
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never get along with the idea of converting the pwm of the mobo's cpu fan header so it can controlling the 3p fan(s).
> I thought I might bump into something like this and waste my efforts.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1505404/guide-convert-3-pin-fan-to-pwm-56k-warning-courtesy-of-lazzer408/40#post_22874018
> 
> oh well, I did tried it once on a 5v sunon fan and threw the towel not long afterwards.
> and I've turned my last 3p fan to a shroud, anyway


inVain, I tried the circuit you linked there and haven't had much luck. Is there a way to take the mobo's PWM signal as an input, but then boost its duty cycle so the gate opens more and I can drive my larger fans?


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> inVain, I tried the circuit you linked there and haven't had much luck. Is there a way to take the mobo's PWM signal as an input, but then boost its duty cycle so the gate opens more and I can drive my larger fans?


TBH, it's your very own effort that I'm highlighting over there (pardon me, I didn't ask for your permission







)

I never took that approach seriously, so I'll be no use for you (I'm sorry







)
beside, I already giving up on the 3 wire fans for a very long time ago

a 4p pwm fans price were slightly higher, but take a look at the gut of the fans (it's a Delta TFC1212DE, the images are courtesy of Nothor):
edit: sorry I wrote PFC, when it should be "T"FC.
i corrected it




and here's the inward of the most beloved fans on this planet (giggled it







)


I don't need to be an EE to know which one deserves their price


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> inVain, I tried the circuit you linked there and haven't had much luck. Is there a way to take the mobo's PWM signal as an input, but then boost its duty cycle so the gate opens more and I can drive my larger fans?


"boosting duty cycle" is wrong. What you want is to either increase switched power, easy, just any plain jane BJT (2N2222 for example) will do. But some san ace's use 20KHz PWM clock though. (Or is it 25KHz?)
Maybe a 10ohms 1/2W resistor into the collector (12V) and 220ohms into the base which is connected to the motherboard's PWM pin.
May be possible with an open collector design but I'm not entirely sure.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> "boosting duty cycle" is wrong. What you want is to either increase switched power, easy, just any plain jane BJT (2N2222 for example) will do. But some san ace's use 20KHz PWM clock though. (Or is it 15KHz?)
> Maybe a 10ohms 1/2W resistor into the collector (12V) and 220ohms into the base which is connected to the motherboard's PWM pin.
> May be possible with an open collector design but I'm not entirely sure.


You are beyond my understanding level, does collector = drain on this circuit? Base = gate?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> You are beyond my understanding level, does collector = drain on this circuit? Base = gate?


Gate and drain are for mosfets


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> "boosting duty cycle" is wrong. What you want is to either increase switched power, easy, just any plain jane BJT (2N2222 for example) will do. But some san ace's use 20KHz PWM clock though. (Or is it 15KHz?)
> Maybe a 10ohms 1/2W resistor into the collector (12V) and 220ohms into the base which is connected to the motherboard's PWM pin.
> May be possible with an open collector design but I'm not entirely sure.


Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just buy a PWM fan?
Fan manufacturers have already done all of the work for you,
and they do it at a reasonable price.
It may be fun to try and stick a square peg in a round hole;
but at the end of the day, simplicity is less problematic.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just buy a PWM fan?
> Fan manufacturers have already done all of the work for you,
> and they do it at a reasonable price.
> It may be fun to try and stick a square peg in a round hole;
> but at the end of the day, simplicity is less problematic.


I enjoy tinkering with things and I have a stack of server fans in a box.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> I enjoy tinkering with things and I have a stack of server fans in a box.


well,
then you better start to think about how to convert the mobo pwm output to 12v.
only then, you can moving on to the next stage "provide 'em with some juices".
mind you that a fan will require something more "linear", so this is something to figure out too on the process









though it sounds simple, there's always risk to fry something out if you don't know what you're doing.

I'll take an easy route and buy an adjustable dc wall adapter if I had the similar situation,
or simply plug the fan to 5v and see if they were usable in term of noise and performance.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just buy a PWM fan?
> Fan manufacturers have already done all of the work for you,
> and they do it at a reasonable price.
> It may be fun to try and stick a square peg in a round hole;
> but at the end of the day, simplicity is less problematic.


This is a "PWM amplifier" bro. Some mobos have barely enough PWM output for 3 or 4 PWM fans
(Correction the supply line should be 5 not 12)


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just buy a PWM fan?
> Fan manufacturers have already done all of the work for you,
> and they do it at a reasonable price.
> It may be fun to try and stick a square peg in a round hole;
> but at the end of the day, simplicity is less problematic.
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoy tinkering with things and I have a stack of server fans in a box.
Click to expand...

So, you have a lot of square pegs and round holes.
A basic amplifier circuit would work, the 5 volt PWM signal would go in the base.


This is an example.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> This is a "PWM amplifier" bro. Some mobos have barely enough PWM output for 3 or 4 PWM fans
> (Correction the supply line should be 5 not 12)


That's easy, let the weak PWM signal control a strong 5 volt input with an Amplifier circuit.



A headlight SSR (solid state relay) from a car has the same function and should also work well. It being solid state, it should be reactive enough. This set-up will control more than 10 fans.



This SSR is for the PWM signal only; fan power (12 volts & ground) will need to be taken from the power supply on the same Molex the 5 volts comes from. Each Molex will handle up to 8 AMPS or 96 watts of fans.


----------



## vlaint

My delta has arrived. afb1212he. but its not working both of them so i think im doing something wrong. I plugged them on my fc5v2. but dont start even if i increase the voltage. The fan controller just beep when i increase the voltage and the rpm remains at 0. I think it may have smoething to do with the blue wire. Red black and blue is its wiring need help lol excited to try this fan out ty


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> My delta has arrived. afb1212he. but its not working both of them so i think im doing something wrong. I plugged them on my fc5v2. but dont start even if i increase the voltage. The fan controller just beep when i increase the voltage and the rpm remains at 0. I think it may have smoething to do with the blue wire. Red black and blue is its wiring need help lol excited to try this fan out ty


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*


lol i dont understand. fan headers in the pic are 4 to 5 mine is 3. Though i get that blue is rpm sensor
Ill probably need to remove the blue wire but that would only leave to wires and i dont know where to put it.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> lol i dont understand. fan headers in the pic are 4 to 5 mine is 3. Though i get that blue is rpm sensor
> Ill probably need to remove the blue wire but that would only leave to wires and i dont know where to put it.


What color are the two wires?


----------



## vlaint

black and red?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> black and red?


Plug it into a Molex connector coming directly from the power supply.
• +5vdc is red,
• +12vdc is yellow,
• Ground is black,
As you can tell, the red wire from the fan will connect to the yellow on the Molex,
Then black goes to ether black.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ok i see what you mean..unfortunately SA isnt the best place to be in the pc thing..especialy with mods like this.....


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> ok i see what you mean..unfortunately SA isnt the best place to be in the pc thing..especialy with mods like this.....


took me 15s to figure out what that "SA" mean....
I thought it "Silver Arrow" which on the 2nd thought it should mean "South Africa", where you live in


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> My delta has arrived. afb1212he. but its not working both of them so i think im doing something wrong. I plugged them on my fc5v2. but dont start even if i increase the voltage. The fan controller just beep when i increase the voltage and the rpm remains at 0. I think it may have smoething to do with the blue wire. Red black and blue is its wiring need help lol excited to try this fan out ty


Can you take a picture?








Blue is definitely the tach line if it isn't a PWM fan for standard delta wiring color fans. If not, it's an -R00 which means it only senses stalled rotors.
Red and black is 12v and GND correspondingly.


----------



## Luke Cool

I re-draw this for clarity. I wounld use a 10 or 20 amp SSR, 100 amps is a little over the deep end.
Car headlight SSR cost like $5, and are easy to find on the web and in any auto parts store.
I think Walmart even has them.


----------



## DaveLT

Uh, you hardly know what you're doing to be honest.

SSRs can't switch on and off so rapidly , PWM on motherboards are 25KHz which means they have a cycle time of 0.04mS or about . Most SSRs struggle to get there. In fact, most have an optimal switching frequency of 1mS (switch off and on) and that's for the premium ones they're also enormously nitpicky
Also they're REALLY expensive, at least the panel mount ones. why bother? You might as well just buy a FAN CONTROLLER I suppose.

You say you're an expert in the field ... you aren't.
From artikbot :
A SSR .... they're made to switch big things, not act as actual switches
low amp load and low current gate drive=craploads of heat and horrible switching characteristics

Which look a bit like sawtooth.
Also you didn't think of gate charge, which would either kill the SSR switching element or YOUR MOTHERBOARD PWM DRIVER.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Uh, you hardly know what you're doing to be honest.
> 
> SSRs can't switch on and off so rapidly , PWM on motherboards are 25KHz which means they have a cycle time of 0.04mS or about . Most SSRs struggle to get there. In fact, most have an optimal switching frequency of 1mS (switch off and on) and that's for the premium ones they're also enormously nitpicky
> Also they're REALLY expensive, at least the panel mount ones. why bother? You might as well just buy a FAN CONTROLLER I suppose.
> 
> You say you're an expert in the field ... you aren't.
> From artikbot :
> A SSR .... they're made to switch big things, not act as actual switches
> low amp load and low current gate drive=craploads of heat and horrible switching characteristics
> 
> Which look a bit like sawtooth.
> Also you didn't think of gate charge, which would either kill the SSR switching element or YOUR MOTHERBOARD PWM DRIVER.


You are the one that said that the PWM signal was weak on some boards. So guess I talking about an answer to you question for options to fix that problem. Not everyone wants to build there own circuit, so here is one that is ready made.
I don't know about the switching speed. I did state that I would not use a high amp SSR. The lower amperage ones should be the fastest of them.
But it is A SOLID STATE RELAY, meaning it's not the mechanical type. The switching should be pretty fast, we'll see.
*Here's one*, a 10 amp DC SSR for $8.32, I don't call that "REALLY expensive".
My $35 FAN CONTROLLER does control 6 fan manually or on automatic. Your right, that's not a bad option.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I don't know about the switching speed. I did state that I would not use a high amp SSR.
> But it is A SOLID STATE RELAY, meaning it not the mechanical type. The switching should be pretty fast, we'll see.
> Here's one for $8.32, I don't call that "REALLY expensive".
> My $35 FAN CONTROLLER does control 6 fan manually or on automatic. Your right, that's not a bad option.
> You are the one that said that the PWM signal was weak on some boards. So guess I talking about an answer to you question for options to fix that problem. Not everyone want to build there own circuit, so here is one that is ready made.


And SSRs can have so much gate charge that they will draw too much power from the already weak PWM circuits and blow the hell out of them.

What do you not get?


----------



## Artikbot

Luke, there is one type of switch for each occasion. And a SSR is not a good option for this.

What you are looking for here are logic level MOSFETs.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artikbot*
> 
> Luke, there is one type of switch for each occasion. And a SSR is not a good option for this.
> 
> What you are looking for here are logic level MOSFETs.


I'm taking a more realistic look at the circuit, and I can see what you both are saying. The relay somewhat shorts the PWM signal to ground to fire the trigger, where as the other circuit uses the PWM signal in the transistor's base as a trigger. The relay's method does put a lot more of a load on the trigger. And as you said, One size does not fit all. Each type of silicon circuit is built for particular job and efficiency range. When using it out of its element, its like a fish out of water. Put a logic level MOSFETs amplifier circuit in to the SSR's place, and you will have a good setup. I can see that now.

Dave;
you and I both like to know why. "It loads the circuit" is never good enough for you, how could you think it's going to fly with me. Until we understand, we will argue. Getting frustrated wont solve the problem ether. There are no stupid people in this forum, yet you speak to us like we are beneath you. You will find holes in my education as I will find holes in yours. I am not above making a mistake, and I will take it like a man and admit i'm wrong when I do. In this case, A calm logical person will appear more credible; you failed on the first part.


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Can you take a picture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue is definitely the tach line if it isn't a PWM fan for standard delta wiring color fans. If not, it's an -R00 which means it only senses stalled rotors.
> 
> Red and black is 12v and GND correspondingly.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Plug it into a Molex connector coming directly from the power supply.
> • +5vdc is red,
> • +12vdc is yellow,
> • Ground is black,
> 
> As you can tell, the red wire from the fan will connect to the yellow on the Molex,
> Then black goes to ether black.


It is a ROO model
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261578008217?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
thats the one i bought. And this is the connector


I saw this on another site though is there a way to attach it to a 3 pin header in a fan controller?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I'm taking a more realistic look at the circuit, and I can see what you both are saying. The relay somewhat shorts the PWM signal to ground to fire the trigger, where as the other circuit uses the PWM signal in the transistor's base as a trigger. The relay's method does put a lot more of a load on the trigger. And as you said, One size does not fit all. Each type of silicon circuit is built for particular job and efficiency range. When using it out of its element, its like a fish out of water. Put a logic level MOSFETs amplifier circuit in to the SSR's place, and you will have a good setup. I can see that now.
> 
> Dave;
> you and I both like to know why. "It loads the circuit" is never good enough for you, how could you think it's going to fly with me. Until we understand, we will argue. Getting frustrated wont solve the problem ether. There are no stupid people in this forum, yet you speak to us like we are beneath you. You will find holes in my education as I will find holes in yours. I am not above making a mistake, and I will take it like a man and admit i'm wrong when I do. In this case, A calm logical person will appear more credible; you failed on the first part.


We are speaking from an electronics engineering standpoint and from our knowledge, if you think it's wrong it's time to go learn. Why use a mosfet to operate a SSR when you can ALREADY just put a bloody BJT in and be done with it insteading of going back to square one and adding in a mosfet?

The relay does not short it. Unless you consider an LED a short.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> It is a ROO model
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261578008217?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> thats the one i bought. And this is the connector
> 
> 
> I saw this on another site though is there a way to attach it to a 3 pin header in a fan controller?


There's your problem, black should be the first pin and red the second pin.


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> There's your problem, black should be the first pin and red the second pin.


so i should just interchange the red and black wire and itll be good to go?


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> so i should just interchange the red and black wire and itll be good to go?


you're reversing the polarity, that way.
sure the fan won't spin, Deltas are reverse polarity protected.

you should be good by interchanging those black and red wires








just pray we don fry anything, though


----------



## vlaint

I interchanged them and BOOM! it worked lol. no rpm readout though and my fan controller is beeping non stop.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> so i should just interchange the red and black wire and itll be good to go?


Yeah, highly possible.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> I interchanged them and BOOM! it worked lol. no rpm readout though and my fan controller is beeping non stop.


Like I said, R00s are stall sensors not F00s which are rotational sensors.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> you're reversing the polarity, that way.
> sure the fan won't spin, Deltas are reverse polarity protected.
> 
> you should be good by interchanging those black and red wires
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just pray we don fry anything, though


Thankfully their protection is a bit better than just a diode across the terminals


----------



## vlaint

o should i avoid all roo then? Maybe ill just remove the alarm then its noisy lol. Thanks again for the help


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> o should i avoid all roo then? Maybe ill just remove the alarm then its noisy lol. Thanks again for the help


Avoid all R00. Not my first time saying this


----------



## vlaint

thats too bad. But thats good to know lol. Guess Ill just listen to its sound then


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> And SSRs can have so much gate charge that they will draw too much power from the already weak PWM circuits and blow the hell out of them.
> 
> What do you not get?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> We are speaking from an electronics engineering standpoint and from our knowledge, if you think it's wrong it's time to go learn. Why use a mosfet to operate a SSR when you can ALREADY just put a bloody BJT in and be done with it insteading of going back to square one and adding in a mosfet?
> 
> The relay does not short it. Unless you consider an LED a short.


An LED is a diode (hints; *Light Eliminating Diode*), and *a diode is in deed a one directional short*, voltage will only flow in that one direction. And If you look at the relay (SSR), you will also note that the diode, in this case, does short this weak 5 volt PWM signal directly to ground. This would account for "the high gate charge" that you spoke of. If we are speaking from an electronics engineering standpoint, you should have learned how a Diode works in kindergarten.

There is only one way to " blow the hell out of already weak PWM circuit", and that is to overload it.
"Too much gate charge" means a high operating (charge) load.
All loads are a short to some degree, some are more-so than others.
I agreed with you and you still say I'm wrong. You are a real piece of work.

You ask "Why use a mosfet to operate a SSR" . I don't know why you would want to do that !!
If you are suggesting I said that, What planet are you on? reread the post.
I said nothing of putting a mosfet into an SSR.
I said "Put a logic level MOSFETs amplifier circuit in to the SSR's place, and you will have a good setup". If we put someone in your place, we replaced you. This means I said to replace the circuit, I did not suggest integrating the two circuits.


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> A cage is an enclosure.
> You say this as an opinion with no facts to back you.
> 
> "The push fan pushes air into an enclosure (case radiator cooler or HDD bay),
> and the pull fan exits air from that same enclosure (case radiator cooler or HDD bay),
> Where-as both fans are moving air, in the same direction through that enclosure".
> I say this as a definition, because it is logical and these same rules apply to all enclosures.
> 
> They are all subject to positive and negative internal pressure.
> They are all subject to looping if the fans are too close and not partitioned (as on a four fan radiator in opposing directions).
> They all have a fan (or fans) pushing air in, and a different fan (or fans) pulling air out. The function is to move cool air into, and kick the hot air out of an enclosure.
> To use the words in-out, inter-exit, intake-exhaust, push-pull, you do so when discussing the function of an enclosure (container, cage, bay, case, radiator, cooler )
> You say "Push-pull is 1 fan in front another fan", AND "one fan in front another fan behind the HDD cage", We call that "a fan stack".
> For Push-pull, we must have something in-between the two fans that (as a function) we are moving air through.
> If you are saying that the flow through path must be in a straight line, this is also not true.
> One fan in front of the HDD cage, and another on the side of the cage, is still push-pull just as much is if the second fan is instead behind the cage.
> 
> When you say push-pull, you may never do so when discussing a case, but a case does fall within the definition.
> You also appear to have the definitions of "a fan stack" and "a push-pull configuration" confused. They are not the same thing.


from what I understand the difference between push-pull and a "fan stack" is a fan stack doesn't require any obstacle (very restrictive ones like radiators) for it to be called as a "fan stack" where as push pull needs obstacles in between the two fans (like a radiator or a fully decked out hard drive cage)?



and going back to fans why were the silverstone AP121 fans not recommended as many (from what I've read) are the same with the corsair SP120s but only with better "air channeling" and more quieter???


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> from what I understand the difference between push-pull and a "fan stack" is a fan stack doesn't require any obstacle (very restrictive ones like radiators) for it to be called as a "fan stack" where as push pull needs obstacles in between the two fans (like a radiator or a fully decked out hard drive cage)?
> and going back to fans why were the silverstone AP121 fans not recommended as many (from what I've read) are the same with the corsair SP120s but only with better "air channeling" and more quieter???


You and I are on the same page. A stack of books is where one or more books are against or on top of each other. This definition does not change when it is applied to fans.
On push-pull; you are pulling the wagon, and your friend is pushing the wagon. You are working with each other to preform an action on a device, and each one of you is doing so by applying force in a different direction. Turning the wagon is OK, you can push-pull around a curve, it does not need to be in a straight line.
Without the wagon, you and your friend are a stack; but we're not going to go there.

And the Silverstone AP121, and Corsair SP120s question; I believe Dave complained about their weak static pressure, but I don't know these fans very well. Someone else will need to take it from here.


----------



## vlaint

I think its because of the ap121 air penetrators very low cfm. Add obstructions and its becomes even lower to the point its that its useless. But i dont know that was the fan i was leaning to buy before but went with deltas.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

hey look & dave & others..whats this?
Can this be used as what you guys were argueing about power distribusion for fans?

What we r all saying is its very dependant on how each user is going to config a pc..if liquid cooling or air ..its same principle..using higher sp fans will yield better cooling with
or without obstructions


----------



## vlaint

Question to delta fan users. Are the 38mm version's fan hub much bigger in diameter than 25mm? I notice its big and I can feel minal air in the middle


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> 
> 
> hey look & dave & others..whats this?
> Can this be used as what you guys were argueing about power distribusion for fans?
> 
> What we r all saying is its very dependant on how each user is going to config a pc..if liquid cooling or air ..its same principle..using higher sp fans will yield better cooling with
> or without obstructions


No.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> Question to delta fan users. Are the 38mm version's fan hub much bigger in diameter than 25mm? I notice its big and I can feel minal air in the middle


Of course. It is designed to be stable for even the most powerful 38mm fan in the range but also because the blades are REALLY heavy
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> An LED is a diode (hints; *Light Eliminating Diode*), and *a diode is in deed a one directional short*, voltage will only flow in that one direction. And If you look at the relay (SSR), you will also note that the diode, in this case, does short this weak 5 volt PWM signal directly to ground. This would account for "the high gate charge" that you spoke of. If we are speaking from an electronics engineering standpoint, you should have learned how a Diode works in kindergarten.
> 
> There is only one way to " blow the hell out of already weak PWM circuit", and that is to overload it.
> "Too much gate charge" means a high operating (charge) load.
> All loads are a short to some degree, some are more-so than others.
> I agreed with you and you still say I'm wrong. You are a real piece of work.
> 
> You ask "Why use a mosfet to operate a SSR" . I don't know why you would want to do that !!
> If you are suggesting I said that, What planet are you on? reread the post.
> I said nothing of putting a mosfet into an SSR.
> I said "Put a logic level MOSFETs amplifier circuit in to the SSR's place, and you will have a good setup". If we put someone in your place, we replaced you. This means I said to replace the circuit, I did not suggest integrating the two circuits.


You wouldn't listen anyway. You don't even know what you're talking about.
So what is this 0.7V dropout voltage diodes have? Oh wait it doesn't exist to you.
Getting real tired of you mate.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> Question to delta fan users. Are the 38mm version's fan hub much bigger in diameter than 25mm? I notice its big and I can feel minal air in the middle


Some are, some aren't. Don't worry about the dead-air space in the middle, all fans have it. Most coolers are designed to where the static pressure fills in this space because it allows room for the fan to do so. Also you'll notice that very few coolers have cooling tubes in the middle. And for case use, moved air is CFM; the hole is unimportant to the end result.

Whatever you do in life brother, whatever may be your goal
Keep you eye upon the donut, and not upon the hole.


----------



## Artikbot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> An LED is a diode (hints; *Light Eliminating Diode*), and *a diode is in deed a one directional short*, voltage will only flow in that one direction. And If you look at the relay (SSR), you will also note that the diode, in this case, does short this weak 5 volt PWM signal directly to ground. This would account for "the high gate charge" that you spoke of. If we are speaking from an electronics engineering standpoint, you should have learned how a Diode works in kindergarten.
> 
> There is only one way to " blow the hell out of already weak PWM circuit", and that is to overload it.
> "Too much gate charge" means a high operating (charge) load.
> All loads are a short to some degree, some are more-so than others.
> I agreed with you and you still say I'm wrong. You are a real piece of work.
> 
> You ask "Why use a mosfet to operate a SSR" . I don't know why you would want to do that !!
> If you are suggesting I said that, What planet are you on? reread the post.
> I said nothing of putting a mosfet into an SSR.
> I said "Put a logic level MOSFETs amplifier circuit in to the SSR's place, and you will have a good setup". If we put someone in your place, we replaced you. This means I said to replace the circuit, I did not suggest integrating the two circuits.


I feel obligued to reply to this.

LED: Light Emitting Diode. A diode is not an uni directional short. It cannot be a short because it has an internal drop and an internal resistance (and those are very measurable and you better take them into account). But from the extremely theoretical standpoint, I'll give you that.

The high gate charge is just because a SSR for DC is a high power MOSFET/MOSFET array in essence, and those require strong gate power to be driven. Too little of a voltage, you won't be turning it on fully (space heater -> fireworks), too little current, it won't be turning on sharply (space heater -> fireworks). The gate of a MOSFET is a capacitor, and as such, will absorb as much current as you can give it. This can often overload weak signal sources.

Using a MOSFET to drive a SSR is actually a good idea. You use a small signal logic level MOSFET with a pulldown resistor to drive the SSR gate, and risks of overloading the motherboard driver, begone! <-- worth noting that many SSRs might incorporate gate drivers in the package, but worth checking.

The added layer of complexity is negligible. A resistor, and a MOSFET. Done. You can even integrate it in the wire itself. But then again, you can just use the MOSFET alone, as it will do the job just as good, as most 40V MOSFETs (what I assume you would use here) can handle currents around 10A without any issues and with very little or no heatsinking. And that is a lot of fans.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Of course. It is designed to be stable for even the most powerful 38mm fan in the range but also because the blades are REALLY heavy.


That is not what he ask, reread the question.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> You wouldn't listen anyway. You don't even know what you're talking about.
> So what is this 0.7V dropout voltage diodes have? Oh wait it doesn't exist to you.
> Getting real tired of you mate.


You say " blow the hell out of already weak PWM circuit", and "Too much gate charge"; as what overloads the circuit.
Then you say "The diode does not short the signal to ground, and "diodes have a 0.7V dropout voltage"; as for why it doesn't overload the circuit.
You cant have it both ways, make up your mind. "You don't even know what you're talking about".

OK, so the diode will no longer conduct electricity when the voltage falls below .7 volts.
So what, why would it need to? This has no effect on the load of a 5 volt square wave.
An amplifier circuit's only job is to accurately reproduce a signal at a higher voltage or amperage.
Why would I care about a 0.7V dropout voltage on a 5 volt square wave?
All we care about is on-off and duty cycle capacity, that is all a square wave is.
It would be more useful to me if the cut-off was at 4.5 volts; It might produce a more sharply defined square wave.
But enough of that. If we have a logic level amplifier circuit that is designed to operate efficiently at the 0 to 5 volt level and except low level inputs, it will very accurately reproduce the in-put square wave at an increased amperage and the correct duty cycle. On this, I think we can all agree.

You said an SSR has load and duty cycle capacity problems when reproducing our PWM signal at a higher amperage.
I admitted that this may be true and agreed with you.
You then spend the next two post disagreeing with yourself, I don't understand????
What were your last two post suppose to prove?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artikbot*
> 
> I feel obligued to reply to this.
> 
> LED: Light _Emitting_ Diode. A diode is not an uni directional short. It cannot be a short because it has an internal drop and an internal resistance (and those are very measurable and you better take them into account). But from the extremely theoretical standpoint, I'll give you that.
> 
> The high gate charge is just because a SSR for DC is a high power MOSFET/MOSFET array in essence, and those require strong gate power to be driven. Too little of a voltage, you won't be turning it on fully (space heater -> fireworks), too little current, it won't be turning on sharply (space heater -> fireworks). The gate of a MOSFET is a capacitor, and as such, will absorb as much current as you can give it. This can often overload weak signal sources.
> 
> Using a MOSFET to drive a SSR is actually a good idea. You use a small signal logic level MOSFET with a pulldown resistor to drive the SSR gate, and risks of overloading the motherboard driver, begone! <-- worth noting that many SSRs might incorporate gate drivers in the package, but worth checking.
> 
> The added layer of complexity is negligible. A resistor, and a MOSFET. Done. You can even integrate it in the wire itself. But then again, you can just use the MOSFET alone, as it will do the job _just as good,_ as most 40V MOSFETs (what I assume you would use here) can handle currents around 10A without any issues and with very little or no heatsinking. And that is a lot of fans.


First of all, I am an electrical technician, not an electrical engineer. The big difference is circuit design training.
An electrical technician knows enough about circuit design to follow a path and figure out what that section does.
DEF. An electrical short is a situation in which an accidental path is created in a circuit.
You got me there. That diode is an intentional path to ground through a semiconductor.

The MOSFET thing, I took someone's word for it earlier, and did not look it up. I did now.
A capacitor is at each entrance gate to the MOSFET, you seem to know what you are talking about.
You said "The gate of a MOSFET is a capacitor"
Then latter you said "A resistor, and a MOSFET. Done".
Capacitors store energy and pass specific frequencies.
This one appears to assure the gate voltage is at a sufficient level.
If it puts a heavy load on weak signals, isn't this counter productive?
You said "small signal logic level MOSFET with a pulldown resistor to drive the SSR gate"
I think this answers my second question of how to get by without the capacitor.

You appear to know enough to design an amplifier that will accurately reproduce the PWM signal at a higher amperage.
You would help a lot of people if you posted one.
Fan power will have the highest amp draw.
The PWM signal, at 2 amps, I believe will control more than 10 fans.
We don't need a lot of power there. 5 amps would be more than anyone would ever use.
Thank you for your comments.



This TIP120 was sujested and seems to have the correct specs, what do you think? This circuit would cost under $1 and boost the output up to 5 amps.


----------



## contay

Hey! I've bought two Jetflos for my R4 front and now I am facing a problem. The screws are slightly ballhead, so they collide with front airfilter. I'd like to replace them with countersunk screws, but I couldn't measure their size accurately with vernier caliper. Also, I tried googling and searching this thread without help. Any tips?

Thanks!


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Zipties mate..zipties..stick a big ziptie thru each hole and lockem ends down with extra cut off zips heads..had same issue with my CM enforcer case once when fooling around with it..
zipties worked a treat for me


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contay*
> 
> Hey! I've bought two Jetflos for my R4 front and now I am facing a problem. The screws are slightly ballhead, so they collide with front airfilter. I'd like to replace them with countersunk screws, but I couldn't measure their size accurately with vernier caliper. Also, I tried googling and searching this thread without help. Any tips?
> Thanks!


Dremel or grind the rounded part off. You will have trouble finding a more suitable screw.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

zipties are quicker...haha..hey luke cool..take a look at my previous posts of that power chip thing pic..found it while looki.g around for other info..got the full manual ect..i think..downloaded it in a pdf..


----------



## contay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Dremel or grind the rounded part off. You will have trouble finding a more suitable screw.


Okay, I might try that. Or figure out out the thread and do few screws myself with cnc lathe


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> zipties are quicker...haha..hey luke cool..take a look at my previous posts of that power chip thing pic..found it while looki.g around for other info..got the full manual ect..i think..downloaded it in a pdf..


It is a Power Monitor. We've use them before when The building power need to be verified good to eliminate it as the possible cause of some issues we were having with a $30,000 Printer/copier.
They're great in a computer with UPS protection. They show every deviation in the power for days, and can be monitored from another office.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contay*
> 
> Hey! I've bought two Jetflos for my R4 front and now I am facing a problem. The screws are slightly ballhead, so they collide with front airfilter. I'd like to replace them with countersunk screws, but I couldn't measure their size accurately with vernier caliper. Also, I tried googling and searching this thread without help. Any tips?
> 
> Thanks!


They're M5 screws.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contay*
> 
> Okay, I might try that. Or figure out out the thread and do few screws myself with cnc lathe


8pcs-Case-FAN-GRILL-SCREWS-Chrome-Extra-Long

100pcs-M5-10mm-PC-Case-Computer-Cooling-Fan-Guard-Grill-Mount-Screws-Black-Screw


----------



## contay

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> 8pcs-Case-FAN-GRILL-SCREWS-Chrome-Extra-Long
> 
> 100pcs-M5-10mm-PC-Case-Computer-Cooling-Fan-Guard-Grill-Mount-Screws-Black-Screw


Well I just "borrow" countersunks from work then and buy pack of those later







thanks guys!


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Some are, some aren't. Don't worry about the dead-air space in the middle, all fans have it. Most coolers are designed to where the static pressure fills in this space because it allows room for the fan to do so. Also you'll notice that very few coolers have cooling tubes in the middle. And for case use, moved air is CFM
> Keep you eye upon the donut, and not upon the hole.


I see. So i guess the amount of airflow entering is the important part and not the direct airflow?correct?


----------



## vikingboy

I just picked up a pair of Jetflo's on the recommendations in this thread and I'm impressed...quite a bit more puff than the Noctuas I was trying on my E5-1620 CPU.

I'd like to ask for some advice. I have three 5in3 Supermicro cse-35T drive cages, each is fitted with a San Ace 92mm x 38mm fan which is loud even when speed reduced. I think part of the issue is they are old and run in a dusty environment without filtering for a few years. I tried to replace them with Nocua B9's but even at full speed the just struggled to hold the drive temps below my 40degrees target.

I want to use quieter fans and introduce some filtering to keep dust out. I was thinking about using the Lian Li PC80N (http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-p80n/) which has a front door with filter than goes over the front of all the drive cages but Im not sure if this is actually any good at filtering? If its not, id be open to alternatives to consider?
I also wondered if the front 140mm fans could be replaced with some quiet but efficient 120mm ones which would help implement a push-pull system around the drive cages helping with temps? If that is a good idea, what fans would you recommend for the rear of the drive cages to replace the San Ace ones? Shame there's no 92mm Jetflo as it would be a good candidate I expect.

thx in adv


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> I see. So i guess the amount of airflow entering is the important part and not the direct airflow?correct?


It's all important, never turn a blind eye to anything. I'm just saying, where flow intensity maters, devices that are made to be point blank in front of a fan are designed to take advantage of the flow patterns.


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

so coolermaster jet flo fans (120mm) are on "equal" footing with corsair SPs in terms of cooling or ?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> so coolermaster jet flo fans (120mm) are on "equal" footing with corsair SPs in terms of cooling or ?


It beats the SP120 without a doubt.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> so coolermaster jet flo fans (120mm) are on "equal" footing with corsair SPs in terms of cooling or ?
> 
> 
> 
> It beats the SP120 without a doubt.
Click to expand...

too bad they stopped making the Excalibur, they beat the jet flo's


----------



## X-PREDATOR

the jetflos beat sp120's?
probably at higher rpm'..i hve a friend who tested two jetflos against his two sp120's
on a 240mm rad..
the jetflos had to run above 50% just to keep up with the sp120' @ just 37%..and at the cost of more noise & higher temps by 5-10°C
he also found that even at higher rpm that not as much air gets pushed thru his rad..the jetflos blade design has to much open space between the blades and arent wide enough.allowing to much air to escape before it can even push thru.

jetflos are great for airflo /case fans and do push alot of air..but i wouldnt use them on any cooler type..now if the blades were broader designed for more SP intensity then hoorah..golden fan almost..

sorry dave..but jetflos look the part but are over rated just like the sp120's...
both are good fans..but the sp120 is better SP optimized making it better for cooling..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> too bad they stopped making the Excalibur, they beat the jet flo's


The excaliburs are the worst fans ever made. Full stop.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> the jetflos beat sp120's?
> probably at higher rpm'..i hve a friend who tested two jetflos against his two sp120's
> on a 240mm rad..
> the jetflos had to run above 50% just to keep up with the sp120' @ just 37%..and at the cost of more noise & higher temps by 5-10°C
> he also found that even at higher rpm that not as much air gets pushed thru his rad..the jetflos blade design has to much open space between the blades and arent wide enough.allowing to much air to escape before it can even push thru.
> 
> jetflos are great for airflo /case fans and do push alot of air..but i wouldnt use them on any cooler type..now if the blades were broader designed for more SP intensity then hoorah..golden fan almost..
> 
> sorry dave..but jetflos look the part but are over rated just like the sp120's...
> both are good fans..but the sp120 is better SP optimized making it better for cooling..


Are you saying doyll is wrong?







Dude. Really?
The Jetflo in my testing could wait ages before the SP120 even came close.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

put these fans both..on the same setup..with the same speed settings and see what happens..

im not saying any1 is wrong..

jeepers what is it with you and him all the time...you guys can never just elaborate or add on to a post..
always argueing like babies untill you get your way..
relax and take a chill pill...maybe remove yourself from your high horses?

i just stated what i experienced and my friends..
if i told you another fact of smthing i did this week youre goin to argue also?
i moved two cm blade masters from push intake on a 240 seidon top position in a haf932
to push exhaust..and guess ..what temps were even better in same config as before..dropped by 2°C...
so am i a fool? no...
am i getting angry..no.
just dont get why you guys have to argue about everything just so youre always correct..


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> too bad they stopped making the Excalibur, they beat the jet flo's


The excaliburs are the worst fans ever made. Full stop.

worsts fans ever made? besides that over the top statement, they push/pull more air through a rad than both the jet's and SP's

...full reverse.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> The excaliburs are the worst fans ever made. Full stop.
> 
> worsts fans ever made? besides that over the top statement, they push/pull more air through a rad than both the jet's and SP's
> ...full reverse.


Sorry mate, you're disillusioned. I have 2 excaliburs under my table and on a rad all the airflow escapes through the stupid grilles
I HAVE SAID BEFORE, IT IS GARBAGE.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> The excaliburs are the worst fans ever made. Full stop.
> 
> worsts fans ever made? besides that over the top statement, they push/pull more air through a rad than both the jet's and SP's
> ...full reverse.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry mate, you're disillusioned. I have 2 excaliburs under my table and on a rad all the airflow escapes through the stupid grilles
> I HAVE SAID BEFORE, IT IS GARBAGE.
Click to expand...

Well I have a lot more than two of them and they are not under my table, they are on many of my rads, been in use for a long time and compared to dozens of other fans meant for use with rads and heatsiknks.

Those holes in the frame that you keep speaking out of school about actually pull in air because the Ex has the ability to hold its pressure against a rad/obstruction and even take more air in. I f you would apply a bit of thought to it. If the Ex could not hold its static pressure it would blow back through and around the fins anyway.

I suppose I did make a couple mistakes in that I assumed that your thread was suppose to be an exchange of ideas, not a " bring an idea to Dave with your hat in your hand and see if Dave approves" I own dozens of these fans and have experimented with them, put them up against even more fans than that, and decisively proven that they push/pull more air through 10-12FPI rads than most any fan in their class. I don't suppose you are interested however that the proof is in the temp results and in that they demonstrate how well they function as well.

The" best" and only arguments you have made are

Quote:


> I HAVE SAID BEFORE, IT IS GARBAGE.


 Compelling indeed

Quote:


> The excaliburs are the worst fans ever made. Full stop


Hmm $4.99 sleeved bearing fans that last two months and move almost no air, this visceral bit of hype hardly holds any water.

Quote:


> Sorry mate, you're disillusioned.


Well in fact I am not. But when running out of facts, turn to personal insults.

I actually spend quite a lot of time with practical comparison of product. And using the Excalibur's I have one of the lowest Delta's I have seen here on OCN.

Worry not Dave, I only spend time on threads with folks who are actually interested in an exchange of ideas so I wont be darkening your threads doorstep again.

I could document my testing of the Excalibur's and their unique design, but you seem not to be interested in anything you have made your mind up on or anyone else's ideas.

and with statements such as:

Quote:


> "Sorry mate, you're disillusioned."
> 
> "The Excalibur's are the worst fans ever made. Full stop"
> 
> "I HAVE SAID BEFORE, IT IS GARBAGE."


Its obvious you are not interested in hearing anyone else out.

Good Bye,


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@ Red1776
three cheers for you mate..your correct..
this is suppose be his aircool guide..
instead its turned into a Daves bragging rights thread.
no pun intended dave..but you cant start a guide for cooling and only have it your way...
and only your opinions are truth...thats not fair to us all here seeking some insight..some reasonable discussions to improve our pc cooling..

and i do apologise in advance if i offend you or any one else...
but you are rude..sarcastic and narrowminded and have no immagination


----------



## DaveLT

I already said multiple times jetflo 120s are better than the excalibur and the SP120 by quite a margin. Why do you think the excalibur was dropped so quickly from their fan lineup
I can't open my thread and have it my way? Why else would it be my thread? Oh wait this is 'murica


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> put these fans both..on the same setup..with the same speed settings and see what happens..
> 
> im not saying any1 is wrong..
> 
> jeepers what is it with you and him all the time...you guys can never just elaborate or add on to a post..
> always argueing like babies untill you get your way..
> relax and take a chill pill...maybe remove yourself from your high horses?
> 
> i just stated what i experienced and my friends..
> if i told you another fact of smthing i did this week youre goin to argue also?
> i moved two cm blade masters from push intake on a 240 seidon top position in a haf932
> to push exhaust..and guess ..what temps were even better in same config as before..dropped by 2°C...
> so am i a fool? no...
> am i getting angry..no.
> just dont get why you guys have to argue about everything just so youre always correct..


If I post bad info, please correct me. I like positive constructive criticism.
Just don't be cruel or condescending, be adult about it.
Some people consider adult disagreements to be very informative.
Some people consider them childish displays of testosterone (Sometimes they are)
Some people think this is face book and want to engaged in idol chit-chat like a group of women sitting around gossiping.
Lets keep this thread clean, high class and informative. Pride and anger does not belong here.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> The excaliburs are the worst fans ever made. Full stop.
> Are you saying doyll is wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude. Really?
> The Jetflo in my testing could wait ages before the SP120 even came close.


'The (bla bla bla)s are the worst fans ever made. Full stop."
Tells me almost nothing. That's the wrong place to stop.

The Bearings have a high failure rate
Of the two that I have, three lasted less than a year.
They look too bling bling. I'm expecting them to transform into a little robot any second.
That fan spays air.
They have poor static pressure
Their stats are incorrect
They are too noisy
It is too weak.
They don't have built-in rubber mounts.
They are a plain-Jane fan, no frills.
Poorly engineered blades.
The holes strip easy
The holes brake when I put screws in them.
The motor runs way too hot.
They're too expensive for what you get.
They're made too cheaply.
They didn't even clean the flanging off, they're half made.
The LEDs are too bright
The LEDs died after 3 days in two fans
Show a little imagination.
Tell us about why you don't like the fan.
Tell us about your bad experience.
Tell us what this evil fan did to you !!


----------



## X-PREDATOR

WHAT EVA:thumb:

thats my point LUKE...hes always negative towards items he deems unworthy


----------



## DaveLT

I am always in the wrong huh? I didn't come here to hear your opinions that the jetflo is a terrible fan, it is not. It just isn't. FYI at full speed the jetflo is actually quieter than the SP120 and the PWM curve on the Jetflo is not linear

You must 1) Note the actual RPM 2) Not be succumbing to placebo

Look, I'm an ACTUAL EE. Luke doesn't even know what he's talking about most of the time.


----------



## doyll

Some people have a hard time with tolerance and understanding.

Being an EE carries no weight in airflow and fan discussions like this.
Electrical / electronics and airflow fan science are entirely different fields.


----------



## HiTechPixel

Scrapping the X99 build since I need to make room for a monitor and thus I'm going to go with Z97. Does the Maximus VII Hero offer native 4-pin PWM fan control on every fan header?


----------



## inVain

such a "hot" thread on a cooling thread









since everybody has introduced themselves, maybe I should as well.
hi, I'm Richard D. Anderson


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Scrapping the X99 build since I need to make room for a monitor and thus I'm going to go with Z97. Does the Maximus VII Hero offer native 4-pin PWM fan control on every fan header?


I have no idea to be honest but across the board that is what ASUS has done.

Frankly I could care less about pushing CM's new products, I have always been unbiased and will always be. Especially with the way things have been going between me and CM


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I have no idea to be honest but across the board that is what ASUS has done.


Alright, thanks for your wonderful support. You are without a doubt the one and only cooling guru.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HiTechPixel*
> 
> Scrapping the X99 build since I need to make room for a monitor and thus I'm going to go with Z97. Does the Maximus VII Hero offer native 4-pin PWM fan control on every fan header?


Yes


----------



## X-PREDATOR

most of Asus boards have 4pin control and 3pin control from the bios.

@dave..
im sorry if i offended you..
not my intent..and im not here to pick sides or a fight or any conflict..
it just seems that youre set on certain items..just because their great for you it doesnt mean theyll be also for others.
but i stand by what i said also..you have great knowledge and a great thread going..but keep an open mind to what others say also perhaps..
i posted what i experienced..so how can that be wrong..ill even digg up the pm between me and my bud of his test of the fan setup then

so im sorry. and apologise..


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Yes


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> most of Asus boards have 4pin control and 3pin control from the bios.
> 
> @dave..
> im sorry if i offended you..
> not my intent..and im not here to pick sides or a fight or any conflict..
> it just seems that youre set on certain items..just because their great for you it doesnt mean theyll be also for others.
> but i stand by what i said also..you have great knowledge and a great thread going..but keep an open mind to what others say also perhaps..
> i posted what i experienced..so how can that be wrong..ill even digg up the pm between me and my bud of his test of the fan setup then
> 
> so im sorry. and apologise..


Just throwing it out there, my Z87M-Plus has all 4 pin headers and only the cpu is PWM, the rest are voltage controlled. It is a cheap- mid range board though


----------



## HiTechPixel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Just throwing it out there, my Z87M-Plus has all 4 pin headers and only the cpu is PWM, the rest are voltage controlled. It is a cheap- mid range board though


They changed the fan headers from Z87 to Z97 however. Even I know that. : )


----------



## 66racer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> so coolermaster jet flo fans (120mm) are on "equal" footing with corsair SPs in terms of cooling or ?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It beats the SP120 without a doubt.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> The excaliburs are the worst fans ever made. Full stop.
> Are you saying doyll is wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude. Really?
> The Jetflo in my testing could wait ages before the SP120 even came close.


Are you guys talking about case fans or for radiators?

I agree on a RADIATOR or even with a simple air filter, the excaliburs really do not perform well at all. I put them on a radiator once in push/pull and thought they were moving a lot of air but temps were not all that great, well that was because on the push side it was letting air escape out the vents and on the pull side it would suck air inin from the vents. I also gave them another shot later in another build and did great until I put air filters on them and all of a sudden lost A TON of air flow, with just a simple air filter.

On a radiator the jetflows loose a lot of air out of the sides as well, if they were a square they would have sealed better and not have lost so much air. All that turbulence I suppose is why they made a horrible noise at full speed. I literally had to return them as they were useless on a radiator. They would make a great case fan though, I just wont use them on a radiator.

I currently have been using sp120HP pwm's in push on the h220 240mm rad (low fpi) and on a CM hyper 212evo in push/pull but their best feature is the colored ring lol. I like them but they can get noisy for the amount of air they move. I CAN NOT have them in push/pull on a radiator either, they develop such an annoying pitch which can be heard even at low rpm. The issue is similar on the evo since they are in p/p right now but not as bad as on the rad. That air cooler needs all the help it can get till my h220 rma comes in.

Overall Im still searching for my ideal fan. I really liked the noise profile of the swiftech included but wanted a bit more air flow, think they are helix fans. oh well on to the next fan I buy....whatever that will be


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *66racer*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> so coolermaster jet flo fans (120mm) are on "equal" footing with corsair SPs in terms of cooling or ?
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It beats the SP120 without a doubt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> The excaliburs are the worst fans ever made. Full stop.
> Are you saying doyll is wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude. Really?
> The Jetflo in my testing could wait ages before the SP120 even came close.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you guys talking about case fans or for radiators?
> 
> I agree on a RADIATOR or even with a simple air filter, the excaliburs really do not perform well at all. I put them on a radiator once in push/pull and thought they were moving a lot of air but temps were not all that great, well that was because on the push side it was letting air escape out the vents and on the pull side it would suck air inin from the vents. I also gave them another shot later in another build and did great until I put air filters on them and all of a sudden lost A TON of air flow, with just a simple air filter.
> 
> On a radiator the jetflows loose a lot of air out of the sides as well, if they were a square they would have sealed better and not have lost so much air. All that turbulence I suppose is why they made a horrible noise at full speed. I literally had to return them as they were useless on a radiator. They would make a great case fan though, I just wont use them on a radiator.
> 
> I currently have been using sp120HP pwm's in push on the h220 240mm rad (low fpi) and on a CM hyper 212evo in push/pull but their best feature is the colored ring lol. I like them but they can get noisy for the amount of air they move. I CAN NOT have them in push/pull on a radiator either, they develop such an annoying pitch which can be heard even at low rpm. The issue is similar on the evo since they are in p/p right now but not as bad as on the rad. That air cooler needs all the help it can get till my h220 rma comes in.
> 
> Overall Im still searching for my ideal fan. I really liked the noise profile of the swiftech included but wanted a bit more air flow, think they are helix fans. oh well on to the next fan I buy....whatever that will be
Click to expand...

That was me. I use the Excalibur's on my 45mm rads and after going through 11 hand picked sets of fans they produced the best results. They move more air and the SP is great. I even experimented with the much maligned 'holed frames' and found that they pulled in more air from the sides at RPMs over 1000 RPM.

The point was, and is I was attempting to share a experience as they worked for *ME on my 45mm 10-12 FPI rads*

I can appreciate the opinions of those that do not like the Excalibur, but they out performed the most popular and most frequently recommended fans (save the high speed Deltas) and temperature results were the best of the lot of them. The difference between your experience and mine may be the use of filters. I do not use them or like them. I am happy with a can of compressed air every week or two.

Not sure why my opinion and great experience has drawn such ire, but I have over $2000 worth of cooling and if the Ex's did not perform to top level, I certainly would find better fans after an 11 set search for my rad fans.

as the Ex's are no longer being made, I would be interested in comparing notes on the fans you end up using.

Good luck on the search


----------



## 66racer

Its been maybe 2yrs since I had them on a radiator, maybe I will try them in push only and compare again against the few fans I have.

I really want to try out some gentle typhoon fans but they seem hard to come by.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *66racer*
> 
> Its been maybe 2yrs since I had them on a radiator, maybe I will try them in push only and compare again against the few fans I have.
> 
> I really want to try out some gentle typhoon fans but they seem hard to come by.


Those were one of the fans I tried out. I though they redesigned the hub size, let me know what kind of results you get if you would.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

if only some one would copy cat the typhoons blade design..cause thats 1 of the key elements of its success..


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> That was me. I use the Excalibur's on my 45mm rads and after going through 11 hand picked sets of fans they produced the best results. They move more air and the SP is great. I even experimented with the much maligned 'holed frames' and found that they pulled in more air from the sides at RPMs over 1000 RPM.
> The point was, and is I was attempting to share a experience as they worked for *ME on my 45mm 10-12 FPI rads*
> I can appreciate the opinions of those that do not like the Excalibur, but they out performed the most popular and most frequently recommended fans (save the high speed Deltas) and temperature results were the best of the lot of them. The difference between your experience and mine may be the use of filters. I do not use them or like them. I am happy with a can of compressed air every week or two.
> Not sure why my opinion and great experience has drawn such ire, but I have over $2000 worth of cooling and if the Ex's did not perform to top level, I certainly would find better fans after an 11 set search for my rad fans.
> as the Ex's are no longer being made, I would be interested in comparing notes on the fans you end up using.
> Good luck on the search


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> That was me. I use the Excalibur's on my 45mm rads and after going through 11 hand picked sets of fans they produced the best results. They move more air and the SP is great. I even experimented with the much maligned 'holed frames' and found that they pulled in more air from the sides at RPMs over 1000 RPM.
> The point was, and is I was attempting to share a experience as they worked for *ME on my 45mm 10-12 FPI rads*
> I can appreciate the opinions of those that do not like the Excalibur, but they out performed the most popular and most frequently recommended fans (save the high speed Deltas) and temperature results were the best of the lot of them. The difference between your experience and mine may be the use of filters. I do not use them or like them. I am happy with a can of compressed air every week or two.
> Not sure why my opinion and great experience has drawn such ire, but I have over $2000 worth of cooling and if the Ex's did not perform to top level, I certainly would find better fans after an 11 set search for my rad fans.
> as the Ex's are no longer being made, I would be interested in comparing notes on the fans you end up using.
> Good luck on the search


so uhh since it turned to be quite a "heated" discussion from a simple question of "CM jetflo 120 vs Corsair SP120"

so it goes this way then to "close" that discussion

excalibur >jetflo 120 > corsair SP120?

and thats with the jetflos beating the SP 120 without being too noisy? or did I got the order wrong?

BTW I asked that a few days back for the reason I'll use it either as a intake (with fan filter and hard drive cage or as a exhaust (no obstacles in the "in" and "out" of the fan)

I can also get some scythe and noiseblocker fans if they are better or on equal footing with those fans mentioned above

another question can you control a casefan that isn't a PWM one without voltage adopters and maybe thru software?

since I am considering a bitfenix spectre pro 120/140 as intake (as it reads good statistics but not sure how it holds) and doesn't list on bitfenixs site if it has PWM or not

and one another question can I use a rubber anti-vibration mount from another manufacturer to a different case fan? say for example I have a casefan that doesn't have rubber anti-vibration mount like deepcool fans and use a rubber anti-vibration mount from noctua?

and also are the sizes for the rubber anti-vibration mount universal or do they have "specific" sizes for different size fans


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> if only some one would copy cat the typhoons blade design..cause thats 1 of the key elements of its success..


don't forget the material to build the fan's blades.
oh, and I sworn that this delta frame is ueber sturdy too.

I can tell, copying a fan performance won't be that easy


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@in vain..true bro..but still..if they werent so hard to find and so expensive..
i couldve gotten a few a few yrs ago..but i
couldnt stomach 300 bucks per fan..and i needed almost 10 fans...so i took the cowsrds route and got CM fans..
which by a miracle are still running..as long as i dont exceed 50% speed..theyr ok for till i can get whats needed.

@ KaiserPhantasma
get what you feel ..feels right for your needs and looks..if you go with one over the other and arent satisfied..just return them for another type..just make sure to check warrentys and rma rules from the place of purchase

we all have diff opinions about same items..each to its own will feel and have diff experiences with said items..


----------



## DaveLT

I'll keep it terse.
It's not just me who knows the Exes perform like crap with an actual rad

Here are some numbers I would like to give you when I use it on the 240 rad of mine :
Excalibur : 11CFM
Jetflo 120 : 52CFM
SP120 PWM (NON LED for god's sake) : 35CFM

And as for noise
Excalibur : 42dBA
SP120 PWM (NON LED) : 36dBA
Jetflo 120 : 35dBA

Any other questions? The SP120 LED and SP140 LED are just crap btw period


----------



## Chita Gonza

I am really glad I stumbled upon this! This has given me alot to think about, in my OCed rig even in my media box. I will +1 to and add this thread to my favs so, I can easily come back and reread, I am sure I will do so a few times. Thanks for this great write up and I agree with ohhgourami this should be a sticky, if it's not already.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chita Gonza*
> 
> I am really glad I stumbled upon this! This has given me alot to think about, in my OCed rig even in my media box. I will +1 to and add this thread to my favs so, I can easily come back and reread, I am sure I will do so a few times. Thanks for this great write up and I agree with ohhgourami this should be a sticky, if it's not already.


Thanks a lot!
Well it was SORT of stickied, actually, well. Featured on the main page for some time. Nobody is managing the air cooling forum now so that'll be that.
Keep this thread active and it won't need to be stickied ... I think









I am spending these 2 days cleaning up other's computers from the very problems that I aim to solve in this guide... DUST AND HEAT. A LOT OF IT. So much of it that I could have been dead earlier


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'll keep it terse.
> It's not just me who knows the Exes perform like crap with an actual rad
> 
> Here are some numbers I would like to give you when I use it on the 240 rad of mine :
> Excalibur : 11CFM
> Jetflo 120 : 52CFM
> SP120 PWM (NON LED for god's sake) : 35CFM
> 
> And as for noise
> Excalibur : 42dBA
> SP120 PWM (NON LED) : 36dBA
> Jetflo 120 : 35dBA
> 
> Any other questions? The SP120 LED and SP140 LED are just crap btw period


what is the source of this data?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

id also like to know?
show us all a full video of you in real time testing these in a closed case like a c70 or haf932..cases which have great airflo traids...
you see dave this is what i meant..you cant just keep saying their all crap..post real charts...videos...pics of real data..or even just a benchmark result...
youve basicly crapped out every fan that over 50% of the worlds users use probably
& some complain and others dont..
how can you keep saying this...i swear you just got bad luck then with the fans you got when testing...

i dont mean to disrespect you..im just trying to wrap my head around all this negativity ...


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @in vain..true bro..but still..if they werent so hard to find and so expensive..
> i couldve gotten a few a few yrs ago..but i
> couldnt stomach 300 bucks per fan..and i needed almost 10 fans...so i took the cowsrds route and got CM fans..
> which by a miracle are still running..as long as i dont exceed 50% speed..theyr ok for till i can get whats needed.


as long as they're make you happy, then they're good enough for you I supposed.
let's keep it that way.
it's really better than blowing the heatsink out by our breath









GTs are good fan,
but there's always options out there.
doesn't matter if you don't have the best fan on the planet.
as long as your temps are good and the noise doesn't bother you,
then you have zero problem.

and whenever something fails you before it should,
there's always a lesson to learn.
success never came early, if I recall correctly


----------



## HandsomeChow

This thread should be transformed into an electronics thread where there are only discussion about electronic circuits. I want to learn more but it is not possible with argument flying around.
My question is regarding the PWM amplifier circuit on previous pages.
DaveLT and Luke Cool, you guys are definitely the pros on electronics here so i am asking you guys
The Amplifier's original design uses a BJT. That should technically be enough if the PWM signal is connected to Base right? And the Collector and Emitter can be used to power the fans right? Giving bursts of 12V to the fans required? Please correct me. I really want to know the correct circuit design.
Second question is on the SSR, what actually makes up the SSR? I know the mechanical ones use an electromagnetic field to switch but what is actually in the SSR relay? transistors? If so how are they actually connected together in a diagram?
Third Question, i was wonder why Luke Cool's design won't actually work? And where is the diode shorting the PWM to the ground? And what is the gate charge? I know the gate is the Mosfet equivalent of base. The capacitance at the gate is a parasitic right?
Fourth Question, At school i am currently learning about inverting and non inverting amplifiers, could those Op Amp circuits work as an amplifier for the PWM signal?
Thanks guys
Please be patience with me, still learning my fundamental electronics.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> This thread should be transformed into an electronics thread where there are only discussion about electronic circuits. I want to learn more but it is not possible with argument flying around.
> My question is regarding the PWM amplifier circuit on previous pages.
> DaveLT and Luke Cool, you guys are definitely the pros on electronics here so i am asking you guys
> The Amplifier's original design uses a BJT. That should technically be enough if the PWM signal is connected to Base right? And the Collector and Emitter can be used to power the fans right? Giving bursts of 12V to the fans required? Please correct me. I really want to know the correct circuit design.
> Second question is on the SSR, what actually makes up the SSR? I know the mechanical ones use an electromagnetic field to switch but what is actually in the SSR relay? transistors? If so how are they actually connected together in a diagram?
> Third Question, i was wonder why Luke Cool's design won't actually work? And where is the diode shorting the PWM to the ground? And what is the gate charge? I know the gate is the Mosfet equivalent of base. The capacitance at the gate is a parasitic right?
> Fourth Question, At school i am currently learning about inverting and non inverting amplifiers, could those Op Amp circuits work as an amplifier for the PWM signal?
> Thanks guys
> Please be patience with me, still learning my fundamental electronics.


Read this (Choosing an SSR), you will find it informative.

Can you see the Diodes? They look like this. ->!-
The input is where the trigger goes.



Shorting is the wrong word because a short is accidental; this grounding is intentional, and part of the normal process.


----------



## DOOMGUY

Dave! Thanks for a great thread with lots of good info. I found some Deltas on Taobao and was thinking about loading down my HAF 912 and 212 EVO with them and connecting them to a Sunbeam controller for a total of 6 case fans and 2 in push/pull on the Evo. Noise is not an issue but I am wondering if this amount of high speed fans is really just overkill? Thanks a lot! Here is the taobao link: goo.gl/mbEpNh


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DOOMGUY*
> 
> Dave! Thanks for a great thread with lots of good info. I found some Deltas on Taobao and was thinking about loading down my HAF 912 and 212 EVO with them and connecting them to a Sunbeam controller for a total of 6 case fans and 2 in push/pull on the Evo. Noise is not an issue but I am wondering if this amount of high speed fans is really just overkill? Thanks a lot! Here is the taobao link: goo.gl/mbEpNh


It's not overkill.
If you know how PWM works, the fan has the full voltage and amperage supplied to it during the on cycle. This takes advantage of the fan's power and its higher static pressure.
Even on voltage control, a powerful fan has the potential to rise to the occasion if the CPUs temperature start to get too high.
The ones you show are the minimum that I would use on a cooler. They are not overkill at all !!!
I use powerful PWM fans on all of my computers.
I particularly like the 120 x 38mm Deltas.
But there is a trick to connecting them so that they work well.

Push-pull looks really cool, but I would choose one 38mm fan over two 25 mm fans (in a push-pull config) any day. The 38s in a rig look heavy duty, normally run quiet at 50% speed; but if task to do so, they can kick out over 120 CFM.
The problem with push-pull configs is 82 CFM + 82 CFM = 82 CFM.


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @in vain..true bro..but still..if they werent so hard to find and so expensive..
> i couldve gotten a few a few yrs ago..but i
> couldnt stomach 300 bucks per fan..and i needed almost 10 fans...so i took the cowsrds route and got CM fans..
> which by a miracle are still running..as long as i dont exceed 50% speed..theyr ok for till i can get whats needed.
> 
> @ KaiserPhantasma
> get what you feel ..feels right for your needs and looks..if you go with one over the other and arent satisfied..just return them for another type..just make sure to check warrentys and rma rules from the place of purchase
> 
> we all have diff opinions about same items..each to its own will feel and have diff experiences with said items..


so the rankings doesn't matter then its the "whatever floats your goat" thing =D

so uh how about this

another question can you control a casefan that isn't a PWM one without voltage adopters and maybe thru software?

and one another question can I use a rubber anti-vibration mount from another manufacturer to a different case fan? say for example I have a casefan that doesn't have rubber anti-vibration mount like deepcool fans and use a rubber anti-vibration mount from noctua?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> Well it was SORT of stickied, actually, well. Featured on the main page for some time. Nobody is managing the air cooling forum now so that'll be that.
> Keep this thread active and it won't need to be stickied ... I think
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am spending these 2 days cleaning up other's computers from the very problems that I aim to solve in this guide... DUST AND HEAT. A LOT OF IT. So much of it that I could have been dead earlier


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'll keep it terse.
> It's not just me who knows the Exes perform like crap with an actual rad
> 
> Here are some numbers I would like to give you when I use it on the 240 rad of mine :
> Excalibur : 11CFM
> Jetflo 120 : 52CFM
> SP120 PWM (NON LED for god's sake) : 35CFM
> 
> And as for noise
> Excalibur : 42dBA
> SP120 PWM (NON LED) : 36dBA
> Jetflo 120 : 35dBA
> 
> Any other questions? The SP120 LED and SP140 LED are just crap btw period


not that I question this (since I don't know anything about cooling) but a source (like others are requesting) is nice


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> so the rankings doesn't matter then its the "whatever floats your goat" thing =D
> 
> so uh how about this
> 
> another question can you control a casefan that isn't a PWM one without voltage adopters and maybe thru software?
> 
> and one another question can I use a rubber anti-vibration mount from another manufacturer to a different case fan? say for example I have a casefan that doesn't have rubber anti-vibration mount like deepcool fans and use a rubber anti-vibration mount from noctua?


I don't know about you, but I hate to see my goats sunk while I browse something to buy.
always asking other what to buy is like trying to take responsibility for what you're going to buy.
it's okay if you don't know anything about cooling, but pardon me; that's a good reason to start to learn if you feel need to know something about cooling.

depend on where you're plugging the fan to.
if you want to control the fan via s/w, the easiest and cheapest spot to look for is the mobo header.
look for "something fan adjusting stuff" accessible to adjust via voltage in the bios.
and please do us a favor to read the mobo manual about their capability and compatibility as they might differ on each mobo.

vibration is something common in this fan regarding stuff.
as long as you can make that goat floats with a life jacket that even provided by noctua, you should grab it.
if it don't fit, do whatever it take to make that goat wear it.
try as best as you can if you don't want to spend another single dime, put some ingenuity on it.
but only if you you're like me; hate to see my goat sunk


----------



## X-PREDATOR

KaiserPhantasma

try getting something like this instead.its quicker..works very well and looks cleaner

http://www.candccentral.co.uk/Phobya-140mm-Fan-Anti-Vibration-Silicon-Pad.html

volt control: use speenfan..or just outright easier way is get a good fancontroller...
bitfenix recon/hydra...sunbeam..lamptron..
aquaro..ect..
heck i use a puny zalman fc1 bla bla..(cant remember full specsheet)
its got 6channels..up to 7w only(dont think so)
ive run multiple different fans of this...
4pin pwm and 3pin..and it works..
the 4pin just gets V controlled ..

hope this gives an slight insight...
fan choices: its not just what floats you boat dude..but no one can force you what to buy..cause there s to many options
and opinions floating about..

if on a tight budget:
CM fans..deepcool..aerocool..xigmatek..
ect..

if medium budget: corsair..noctua..noiseblocker..cougars..ect...

if no budget or issue with noise "go crazy and get deltas for ultimate cooling...


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> I don't know about you, but I hate to see my goats sunk while I browse something to buy.
> always asking other what to buy is like trying to take responsibility for what you're going to buy.
> it's okay if you don't know anything about cooling, but pardon me; that's a good reason to start to learn if you feel need to know something about cooling.
> 
> depend on where you're plugging the fan to.
> if you want to control the fan via s/w, the easiest and cheapest spot to look for is the mobo header.
> look for "something fan adjusting stuff" accessible to adjust via voltage in the bios.
> and please do us a favor to read the mobo manual about their capability and compatibility as they might differ on each mobo.
> 
> vibration is something common in this fan regarding stuff.
> as long as you can make that goat floats with a life jacket that even provided by noctua, you should grab it.
> if it don't fit, do whatever it take to make that goat wear it.
> try as best as you can if you don't want to spend another single dime, put some ingenuity on it.
> but only if you you're like me; hate to see my goat sunk


I got a Z87 MPOWER MAX mobo and it does have the fan settings thing in the bios but was just wondering if the type of fans that I should purchase should be either be a PWM capable fan or a fan with various voltage adapters but if I can control it via the mobo headers (regardless if the fan is PWM or not or have voltage adapters) then I guess I can go crazy and purchase any type of fan and be able to control its speed and noise then?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> KaiserPhantasma
> 
> try getting something like this instead.its quicker..works very well and looks cleaner
> 
> http://www.candccentral.co.uk/Phobya-140mm-Fan-Anti-Vibration-Silicon-Pad.html
> 
> volt control: use speenfan..or just outright easier way is get a good fancontroller...
> bitfenix recon/hydra...sunbeam..lamptron..
> aquaro..ect..
> heck i use a puny zalman fc1 bla bla..(cant remember full specsheet)
> its got 6channels..up to 7w only(dont think so)
> ive run multiple different fans of this...
> 4pin pwm and 3pin..and it works..
> the 4pin just gets V controlled ..
> 
> hope this gives an slight insight...
> fan choices: its not just what floats you boat dude..but no one can force you what to buy..cause there s to many options
> and opinions floating about..
> 
> if on a tight budget:
> CM fans..deepcool..aerocool..xigmatek..
> ect..
> 
> if medium budget: corsair..noctua..noiseblocker..cougars..ect...
> 
> if no budget or issue with noise "go crazy and get deltas for ultimate cooling...


thats the thing the corsair fans are cheaper compared to the jetflo (at least here in our place) but I don't mind using the jetflo (if I ever buy it) since it looks "OK" enough for me and am just after sheer performance and good noise levels to go along with it but if corsair also trumps the jetflos in that aspect guess I'll be going with SP 120s then (with the added bonus of good looks)

also found this on youtube a year ago just putting it here and is all about the sound levels of the corsair AF 140,120 (performance,quiet) and SP 120 (performance,quiet) fans and should help anyone wondering if they are loud or not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPY2IGVJoY8


----------



## X-PREDATOR

good find..ive seen that..
look at this one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9uUXt7mE6Qg&itct=CDgQpDAYAiITCOOX6pzJgcECFerNwgodDSkAnFIOZmFuIHRlc3QgbGludXM%3D&hl=en-GB&gl=ZA&client=mv-google

dave have yo got a machine like this for testing?


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> I got a Z87 MPOWER MAX mobo and it does have the fan settings thing in the bios but was just wondering if the type of fans that I should purchase should be either be a PWM capable fan or a fan with various voltage adapters but if I can control it via the mobo headers (regardless if the fan is PWM or not or have voltage adapters) then I guess I can go crazy and purchase any type of fan and be able to control its speed and noise then?


the last time I browse for MSI mobo, they provide a well documented infos regarding their fan headers and their capability.
at the very least, CPU fan header IS the only place where you get genuine pwm capability.
the other control-able headers were usually just plain voltage.
but you should check your manual, no excuse for being lazy if you really want to control your fan(s) by your mobo.

when it's come to fan controlling method, just bear in mind.
a voltage regulating (common and the only way to control 3p fans) is also applicable for 4p PWM fans.
although this method of fan control is applicable to all type of fans, it has limit about how many fan(s) it can handle due to their power rating matters.

however, a 4p fans were a newer breed.
they are intended to be speed controlled with their own appropriate way and considered to be better than the conventional (old school) way.

problem is, every major company seems to be greedy to make their products to be compatible with any fan exist.
not to mention that 3p fans were price slightly lower than the 4p breed.
it doesn't take to be a business expert to see what they're gonna offer to the market as "a fan controller".

can't really blame them anyway.
tell me, if you need 10 fans.
the 3p was cost $10 each,
while the 4p was cost $15 each.
which one'll you buy?









anyway, if you really care about noise/performance matter.
then getting a fan controller is a must.
it;s easier that way


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> also found this on youtube a year ago just putting it here and is all about the sound levels of the corsair AF 140,120 (performance,quiet) and SP 120 (performance,quiet) fans and should help anyone wondering if they are loud or not
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPY2IGVJoY8


For me that test means nothing because everyplace I use fans has some resistance; a grill, grill & filter, cooler fins, radiator, etc. What it sounds like in the video is different than in normal use.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> good find..ive seen that..
> look at this one
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9uUXt7mE6Qg&itct=CDgQpDAYAiITCOOX6pzJgcECFerNwgodDSkAnFIOZmFuIHRlc3QgbGludXM%3D&hl=en-GB&gl=ZA&client=mv-google
> 
> dave have yo got a machine like this for testing?


The above test gives us information we can apply to figure out how they will perform the way we use them.

Martin's testing gives us their sound and performance on a radiator.
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2013/05/07/fan-testing-round-12/


----------



## inVain

yeah,...
15dB is something like 15thou I supposed


----------



## X-PREDATOR

cool..
well dave maybe yo should relax and eese up abit..no need to be so serious about everything all the time bro..
i realy like your thaughts and knowledge as much as any other..but you need to be more open minded atleast with items...
even i try to keep my cool..and believe me..im a realy hot tempered guy...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> yeah,...
> 15dB is something like 15thou I supposed


15dBA is like unobtanium. Extremely hard to get / reach. Studios are quite happy if they are that quiet.







30dBA is like a quiet bedroom or house.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> yeah,...
> 15dB is something like 15thou I supposed


I found something that I thought was interesting
To get a feeling for the heard sound quantities in decibels (dB), look at the table below


----------



## Red1776

Luke,

do you know what the notation @ 65dB is/means?

For me the tone/frequency is more important (to a certain limit)

That's a great find. I have not seen one that takes it up to 190dB before


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Luke,
> do you know what the notation @ 65dB is/means?
> 
> For me the tone/frequency is more important (to a certain limit)
> 
> That's a great find. I have not seen one that takes it up to 190dB before


Yes. It is a sound pressure level measured in decibels.
The Frequency of the sound pressure matters only to resonance.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Luke,
> do you know what the notation @ 65dB is/means?
> 
> For me the tone/frequency is more important (to a certain limit)
> 
> That's a great find. I have not seen one that takes it up to 190dB before
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. It is a sound pressure level measured in decibels
> 
> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm
Click to expand...

I meant the heart damage note.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> I meant the heart damage note.


That is a good question, anything I would say for this would be a poor guess,
so I will leave it for a person to answer that is more knowledgeable in this subject.

I am good at Google, I just found this.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/554566_3
A growing body of evidence confirms that noise pollution has both temporary and permanent effects on humans (and other mammals) by way of the endocrine and autonomic nervous systems. It has been postulated that noise acts as a nonspecific biologic stressor eliciting reactions that prepare the body for a fight or flight response.[1,2,6] For this reason, noise can trigger both endocrine and autonomic nervous system responses that affect the cardiovascular system and thus may be a risk factor for cardiovascular disease.[1,2,6,11,33-36] These effects begin to be seen with long-term daily exposure to noise levels above 65 dB or with acute exposure to noise levels above 80 to 85 dB.[1,3] Acute exposure to noise activates nervous and hormonal responses, leading to temporary increases in blood pressure, heart rate, and vasoconstriction. Studies of individuals exposed to occupational or environmental noise show that exposure of sufficient intensity and duration increases heart rate and peripheral resistance, increases blood pressure, increases blood viscosity and levels of blood lipids, causes shifts in electrolytes, and increases levels of epinephrine, norepinephrine, and cortisol.[3] Sudden unexpected noise evokes reflex responses as well. Cardiovascular disturbances are independent of sleep disturbances; noise that does not interfere with the sleep of subjects may still provoke autonomic responses and secretion of epinephrine, norepinephrine, and cortisol.[29] These responses suggest that one can never completely get used to night-time noise

I too will have to find a dictionary to figure out what I just read, but your answer is in there somewhere.


----------



## doyll

Without having a sound meter to view while listening to different things it is very hard to understand what a specific sound level / pressure sounds like. I'm older so have some hearing loss, In a very quiet room, one I can hear a pin drop in, birds outside, breeze rustling leaves on trees, etc. the ambient lnoise level is 30dBA. At 2 meters breathing, using keyboard, etc. all raise dBA slightly.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> I meant the heart damage note.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good question, anything I would say for this would be a poor guess,
> so I will leave it for a person to answer that is more knowledgeable in this subject.
> 
> I am good at Google, I just found this.
> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/554566_3
> A growing body of evidence confirms that noise pollution has both temporary and permanent effects on humans (and other mammals) by way of the endocrine and autonomic nervous systems. It has been postulated that noise acts as a nonspecific biologic stressor eliciting reactions that prepare the body for a fight or flight response.[1,2,6] For this reason, noise can trigger both endocrine and autonomic nervous system responses that affect the cardiovascular system and thus may be a risk factor for cardiovascular disease.[1,2,6,11,33-36] These effects begin to be seen with long-term daily exposure to noise levels above 65 dB or with acute exposure to noise levels above 80 to 85 dB.[1,3] Acute exposure to noise activates nervous and hormonal responses, leading to temporary increases in blood pressure, heart rate, and vasoconstriction. Studies of individuals exposed to occupational or environmental noise show that exposure of sufficient intensity and duration increases heart rate and peripheral resistance, increases blood pressure, increases blood viscosity and levels of blood lipids, causes shifts in electrolytes, and increases levels of epinephrine, norepinephrine, and cortisol.[3] Sudden unexpected noise evokes reflex responses as well. Cardiovascular disturbances are independent of sleep disturbances; noise that does not interfere with the sleep of subjects may still provoke autonomic responses and secretion of epinephrine, norepinephrine, and cortisol.[29] These responses suggest that one can never completely get used to night-time noise
> 
> I too will have to find a dictionary to figure out what I just read, but your answer is in there somewhere.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Luke 

I think I get it. frequency=vibration and I think they have discovered that the same way a certain frequency will shatter glass, it can also cause the body to respond to frequencies it finds or assumes to be a threat. Kind of like how rotten food, chemicals make your gag reflex kick in to tell you that its toxic and not to be consumed.

well...that's my shot at it  thanks for the info.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Without having a sound meter to view while listening to different things it is very hard to understand what a specific sound level / pressure sounds like. I'm older so have some hearing loss, In a very quiet room, one I can hear a pin drop in, birds outside, breeze rustling leaves on trees, etc. the ambient lnoise level is 30dBA. At 2 meters breathing, using keyboard, etc. all raise dBA slightly.


I'm 48 and I think that's the same reason that 'pitch' of a fan is more important to me than a super low dBa level. The kids don't care, my younger wife doesn't care either. a quiet but unpleasant 'hum' or midrange frequency (I think it's about 90-120 Hz) drives me nuts.


----------



## Sniping

edited, figured out the answer to my question


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 15dBA is like unobtanium. Extremely hard to get / reach. Studios are quite happy if they are that quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 30dBA is like a quiet bedroom or house.


oh you.....
guess you just reply anything you want without try to read anything you quote








oh well,
it's better than comparing me with an ape like you did on the first time you quote my post








yeah, I've read that before you edited your post









15 dB of noise seems quite quiet on paper,
so does 15 thou /thousandth of an inch (mils) appear so small on paper.
but in reality, 15 thou is more than adequate to deliver signal on a PWB.

in term of noise, a whisper will seems to be quiet in a busy office room.
but a whisper two desks away is quite annoying when I'm having exams in a class room.

see, what I was trying to say is; noise is a relative /subjective matter which depend on the ambient and the subjects them self.
sure having a scale is good, but for reference only.
I'm not sure whether or not to be able to distinguish 30dB vs 33dB.
all I know, there's a noise source.

don't forget that a moving object tends to generate vibrations.
stuff that vibrating object inside a case, and we'll have an extra loud speaker in the room.
sure the fan is 23 dB on a free room environment, but the vibration alone might end up at 37 dB.

rather pain subjects to discuss, huh?
that's why it's really better to get a fan controller instead,
I'd spend 30 bucks (at most), rather than buying those dB meter which I'm not sure I gonna use every once a year (or even for a decade).
sure your way of splitting the mobo or gpu pwm signal can be handy too,
but I'm not like you.
I'd prefer dealing with constant noise,
and having more absolute control with my fans


----------



## doyll

@ inVain
That was uncalled for.









Indeed.
People often fail to realize that every 10dBA increase sounds twice as loud in our ears.
Ambient is normally 25-40dBA.
Walk out of a noisy machine shop with an ambient of 65dBA and 45dBA will sound very quiet (1/4th as loud as machine shop).
But if we are setting in a quiet room with an ambient of 25-30dBA, 45dBA seems quite loud (3 to 4 times as loud as ambient).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sniping*
> 
> edited, figured out the answer to my question


Those are a very good deal. They are AFB1212HHE -5K75 model rather than black AFB1212HHE-TP02 .. same fan but different color and have plug on them.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @ inVain
> That was uncalled for.


yeah....
whatever


----------



## HandsomeChow

Thanks Luke for clarifying how the SSR works. So it's bascially a LED with a Photodiode on the other end or an LDR to sense the light pulses.
but you did not explain why your SSR circuit for PWM won't work?


----------



## Sniping

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Those are a very good deal. They are AFB1212HHE -5K75 model rather than black AFB1212HHE-TP02 .. same fan but different color and have plug on them.


Thanks for letting me know. I just bought 18.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> oh you.....
> guess you just reply anything you want without try to read anything you quote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh well,
> it's better than comparing me with an ape like you did on the first time you quote my post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, I've read that before you edited your post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in term of noise, a whisper will seems to be quiet in a busy office room.
> but a whisper two desks away is quite annoying when I'm having exams in a class room.
> 
> see, what I was trying to say is; noise is a relative /subjective matter which depend on the ambient and the subjects them self.
> sure having a scale is good, but for reference only.
> I'm not sure whether or not to be able to distinguish 30dB vs 33dB.
> all I know, there's a noise source.


Sometimes words don't come out like I want them to.
Kudos to Doyll for realizing he made a mistake, and using the edit button to fix it.

For example: Noise is not a relative /subjective matter. It is what it is.
Noise tolerance is a relative /subjective matter. You even gave a few examples of this , so we all know what you meant.


----------



## CrazyElf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'm not entirely sure carrying 300W off a SINGLE molex header won't overheat and catch fire


Nope. It uses an 8-pin PCI-E and something else.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> the last time I browse for MSI mobo, they provide a well documented infos regarding their fan headers and their capability.
> at the very least, CPU fan header IS the only place where you get genuine pwm capability.
> the other control-able headers were usually just plain voltage.
> but you should check your manual, no excuse for being lazy if you really want to control your fan(s) by your mobo.
> ....
> 
> anyway, if you really care about noise/performance matter.
> then getting a fan controller is a must.
> it;s easier that way


The newer MSI Z97 and X99 seem to have decent fan control in the BIOS.



The other issue is that every generation is different. Some manufacturers regress between generations. Also, sometimes the high end boards will have a level of control that the lower end boards do not.

Check before you buy with each generation.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> if only some one would copy cat the typhoons blade design..cause thats 1 of the key elements of its success..


It's not that easy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> What distinguishes the Gentle Typhoon actually would be the large central hub, the blade design, and the thick blades. All of the Gentle Typhoon copies so far have not come anywhere near close to Gentle Typhoon performance - in fact many have offered below average fan performance. That is because they are not willing to invest where the performance matters the most - the central hub, the blade design, and the thickness of the blades.
> 
> Note the hub to blade ratio on the Gentle Typhoon. It's the central hub that allows the fan to generate a lot of static pressure for a 120x25mm fan. That combined with the blade shape (which is made for low pitched frequencies) and the moderately thick blades (again for static pressure) allow the fan to perform so well. Not only that, the low pitched frequencies make the fan subjectively more pleasant to listen to, so we do not get annoyed compared to a fan of comparable noise level.
> 
> They are also individually very well balanced. Pull the power on a Gentle Typhoon. You will note that the fan will continue spinning for approximately 30 seconds.
> 
> For that reason, the only fans that are "near peers" of the Gentle Typhoon are industrial fans which share similar practices. They are very well balanced, designed with very high quality central hubs, use high quality bearings, and are typically optimized for maximum performance per watt. Delta, San Ace, and other Nidec fans offer near Gentle Typhoon performance.
> 
> Point is, only industrial fan makers can offer anything similar. I wish that somebody like Corsair would do a deal with Nidec, Sanyo, or Delta, and just sell us their fans at consumer speeds, while offering PWM functionality and sleeving them for us.


See the above.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 15dBA is like unobtanium. Extremely hard to get / reach. Studios are quite happy if they are that quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 30dBA is like a quiet bedroom or house.


Ever live near a very busy street? Often noise can be very loud, even at night.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Ever live near a very busy street? Often noise can be very loud, even at night.


More times then I wanted to.







Lived a few blocks away from city interstate highway too .. and half a mile from two major freight train lines with one coming by every 15-20 minutes.
Amazing what we can get used to.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Nope. It uses an 8-pin PCI-E and something else.


The 8 pin PCI-E connector has two sensor paths, Three 12volt DC lines, and three ground lines. There is dissention among graphics card manufacturers, some say 40 watts per line, and I have found one that says 50 watts per line. 40 watts is the safer choice, but just for the sake of this discussion, lets go with the max, 50 watts. Three 12volt DC lines, at 50 watts per line, equals 150 watts. 75 watts is already at the PCI-E slot, that is 225 maximum wattage to the graphics card from the slot and 8 pin line. I have done extensive research on this subject, then I wrote an article on it (GPU and CPU power connections), Dave is correct. You have been misinformed. You will find no reputable sources that agrees with you. If you do find any, please list them, we all would love to read them. For a 300 watt graphics card. You will need a minimum of one PCI-E eight-pin connector + one PCI-E six-pin connector + PCI-E slot power. A single Molex connector will not provide 300watts without over heating that circuit.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> The 8 pin PCI-E connector has two sensor paths, Three 12volt DC lines, and three ground lines. There is dissention among graphics card manufacturers, some say 40 watts per line, and I have found one that says 50 watts per line. 40 watts is the safer choice, but just for the sake of this discussion, lets go with the max, 50 watts. Three 12volt DC lines, plus 50 watts per line, equals 150 watts. 75 watts is already at the PCI-E slot, that is 225 maximum wattage to the graphics card from the slot and 8 pin line. I have done extensive research on this subject, then I wrote an article on it (GPU and CPU power connections), Dave is correct. You have been misinformed. You will find no reputable sources that agree with you. If you do find any, please list them, we all would love to read them. For a 300 watt graphics card. You will need a minimum of one PCI-E eight-pin connector + one PCI-E six-pin connector + PCI-E slot power. A single Molex connector will not provide 300watts without over heating that circuit.


Some of these would be true.

PCI SIG has provided guidelines on PCIe Power but has not updated them yet. HERE

Why do these information need to be updated?

In the Quest for GPU Supremacy, ATI/AMD and nVidia have been producing DUAL GPU Graphics Cards that Over-Powers PCI-SIG Standards.

Take the R9-295X2 for example:



The thing uses 2 8-Pin PCIe Power Connectors. PCI-SIG rules out 150W from each 8-Pin Connectors. But hey, look what AMD has to say









Each 8-Pin Connectors can be rated for up to 28 Amps or, 336 Watts. Or around 670 Watts from the 8-Pin connectors alone.


----------



## Luke Cool

The Devil 13 has Four 8 pin connectors and says that each connector handles 150 watts.
That was the first time I had ever seen a "wattage per line" rating that was that high. That was just a few months ago.
This new information does not surprise me. Thank you for the source.
This card takes a special power supply, few meet these new numbers.
This opens a can of worms that only an enthusiast can understand.
The average novice that buys this card will connect it to an inadequate power supply in spite of the warnings.
All of the compatible power supplies listed are over 1500 watts.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> The newer MSI Z97 and X99 seem to have decent fan control in the BIOS.
> 
> 
> 
> The other issue is that every generation is different. Some manufacturers regress between generations. Also, sometimes the high end boards will have a level of control that the lower end boards do not.
> 
> Check before you buy with each generation.


indeed,
but please underline the fact that only "sometimes the high end boards will have a level of control that the lower end boards do not."
which means, not every mother board out in the market is offering this privilege.

the higher I fly with my expectations, the harder I fall when they don't meet what I was hope for.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> The Devil 13 has Four 8 pin connectors and says that each connector handles 150 watts.
> That was the first time I had ever seen a "wattage per line" rating that was that high. That was just a few months ago.
> This new information does not surprise me. Thank you for the source.
> This card takes a special power supply, few meet these new numbers.
> This opens a can of worms that only an enthusiast can understand.
> The average novice that buys this card will connect it to an inadequate power supply in spite of the warnings.
> All of the compatible power supplies listed are over 1500 watts.


Indeed.

IMO, PCI-SIG made their standards to how much current a wire can withstand given their gauge. There is a chance the ratings are conservative for Safety Purposes. But Current capability of a wire is also length dependent aside from their given gauge.

Add the fact that some PSUs were multi-rail in design. While most High Power PSU with Single Rails will probably chalk up that kind of load. Single Rails are limited by how much Current or Power each rail can provide.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> IMO, PCI-SIG made their standards to how much current a wire can withstand given their gauge. There is a chance the ratings are conservative for Safety Purposes. But Current capability of a wire is also length dependent aside from their given gauge.


So true, a 14 gauge copper wire has 2.535 Ohms of resistance every 1000 feet.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
As you can see by the above information, on a 2 foot span of 14 gauge wire (32 amps * 384 [email protected] * *.*00507 Ohms), you have no worries.
The connector is rated for 120 watts per line, the printed circuit on the board was always the weakest part of the power circuit.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Add the fact that some PSUs were multi-rail in design. While most High Power PSU with Single Rails will probably chalk up that kind of load. Single Rails are limited by how much Current or Power each rail can provide.


Single Rails are limited by how much Current or Power each rail can provide????? Did you mean "multiple rail"?
The one big disadvantage of the multiple +12 volt rail system is, when you install any devices in your computer; you must manage the amperage load to each rail. If your multiple rail power supply keeps shutting down, you have overloaded one rail. Most of the PSs "1500watts and over" have multiple +12 volt rails, up to 8 rails. I prefer the simplicity of a single rail system.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> IMO, PCI-SIG made their standards to how much current a wire can withstand given their gauge. There is a chance the ratings are conservative for Safety Purposes. But Current capability of a wire is also length dependent aside from their given gauge.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> So true, a 14 gauge wire has 2.535 Ohms of resistance every 1000 feet.
> http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
> As you can see by the above information, on a 2 foot span of 14 gauge wire (.00507 Ohms), you have no worries.
> 
> 
> 
> Add the fact that some PSUs were multi-rail in design. While most High Power PSU with Single Rails will probably chalk up that kind of load. Single Multi-Rails are limited by how much Current or Power each rail can provide.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Single Rails are limited by how much Current or Power each rail can provide????? Did you mean "multiple rail"?
> The one big disadvantage of the multiple +12 volt rail system is, when you install any devices in your computer; you must manage the amperage load to each rail. If your multiple rail power supply keeps shutting down, you have overloaded one rail. Most of the PSs "1500watts and over" have multiple +12 volt rails, up to 8 rails. I prefer the simplicity of a single rail system.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Yes, it's an effin' Typo









Single-Rail Always Win in High Power Systems. Though it should be noted that a Fault found to trigger OCP in a single rail means System Shut Down.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Sometimes words don't come out like I want them to.
> Kudos to Doyll for realizing he made a mistake, and using the edit button to fix it.


Luke, I understood if you and others're being annoyed by my personal grudge with mister Doll.

and ever since this thread's getting haunted by his presence,
maybe I should just leave for everybody sake.

please post more informative things for the rest of us.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> So true, a 14 gauge copper wire has 2.535 Ohms of resistance every 1000 feet.
> http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
> As you can see by the above information, on a 2 foot span of 14 gauge wire (32 amps * 384 [email protected] * *.*00507 Ohms), you have no worries.
> The connector is rated for 120 watts per line, the printed circuit on the board was always the weakest part of the power circuit.
> Single Rails are limited by how much Current or Power each rail can provide????? Did you mean "multiple rail"?
> The one big disadvantage of the multiple +12 volt rail system is, when you install any devices in your computer; you must manage the amperage load to each rail. If your multiple rail power supply keeps shutting down, you have overloaded one rail. Most of the PSs "1500watts and over" have multiple +12 volt rails, up to 8 rails. I prefer the simplicity of a single rail system.


I would love for you to post correct info but FYI A SINGLE AWG18 cable can carry 8amps without an issue at all unless for some reasons your computer has 1000 feet long cables.
Also, it isn't the traces again, it's ALWAYS the power delivery mosfets








Traces are usually designed to carry much higher power than the mosfets need to if it isn't the designer must be fired immediately.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I would love for you to post correct info but FYI A SINGLE AWG18 cable can carry 8amps without an issue at all unless for some reasons your computer has 1000 feet long cables.
> Also, it isn't the traces again, it's ALWAYS the power delivery mosfets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Traces are usually designed to carry much higher power than the mosfets need to if it isn't the designer must be fired immediately.


http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
My numbers come from the "American Wire Gauge Table" that the above link goes to.
I did not pull them out of thin air, I posted a reputable source.
Chassis wiring assumes each wire is routed separately, and power wiring assumes they are wired in a bundle. In chassis wiring the cooling of the conductors is better, because they are all exposed directly to air. In a bundle, most of the wires are not in direct contact with the air.
Your numbers are assuming a bundle. This does not apply to the PCIe cables we are discussing, they are in direct contact with the air.

The traces are copper and are subject to the same listed above table.
The traces are a lot smaller than the wire that brings the power to them.
In business, I have put jumper wires over fried traces in power supplies for years. This fixed the power supply. The assumption that traces are the weakest part of the circuit is a very logical one because that was the only place the failure occurred.
The Trace size, and the mosfet choice, no doubt, go hand in hand. Both of us are only half right, we each only told half of the story.

Thank you for your comment.


----------



## doyll

I can see both sides of this. but personally I would not use 18G for more than a few amps of power load. Yes, a PCIe lead is in open air, but not completely. There are usually 6-8 leads bundled together, and grommets, etc are not open air .. so heat can build at these points.

My thoughts are if wire is heating it is wasting. I'll leave open air transmission lines to power company's overhead lines.








I'll continue to plan all my cabling calculations based on inclosed wire size.


----------



## Luke Cool

A Wire bundle is insulated wire that is wrapped or contained within an insulating covering in a continual tight formation.
What we have is somewhere in between a bundle and open air. The bundle numbers are the safest.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
> My numbers come from the "American Wire Gauge Table" that the above link goes to.
> I did not pull them out of thin air, I posted a reputable source.
> Chassis wiring assumes each wire is routed separately, and power wiring assumes they are wired in a bundle. In chassis wiring the cooling of the conductors is better, because they are all exposed directly to air. In a bundle, most of the wires are not in direct contact with the air.
> Your numbers are assuming a bundle. This does not apply to the PCIe cables we are discussing, they are in direct contact with the air.
> 
> The traces are copper and are subject to the same listed above table.
> The traces are a lot smaller than the wire that brings the power to them.
> In business, I have put jumper wires over fried traces in power supplies for years. This fixed the power supply. The assumption that traces are the weakest part of the circuit is a very logical one because that was the only place the failure occurred.
> The Trace size, and the mosfet choice, no doubt, go hand in hand. Both of us are only half right, we each only told half of the story.
> 
> Thank you for your comment.


I'm speaking from ACTUAL testing







Something about pushing a bunch wires to their extreme limits that gets me on my feet. Just in case you haven't noticed cables for computer PSUs tend to have thinner insulation simply because they don't need to be thick and have better heat transmission than normal wires

Also, another thing, it's not like I haven't melted AWG10 OR AWG18 cable before on intention with 30A. Like I said i'm an EE, we like to do crazy things just for fun. It is in our scope, actually.

Nope that is false, they have FAR MORE surface area than the wires that lead to them because they are often deeper than copper wires but the thing is they are also attached to the PCB so if anything they're still cooled better than most wires that PSUs are attached with.
All you did was botch jumper wires over fried traces, nothing more. What more do you know? EEs are the ones who designed the circuits in the first place


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'm speaking from ACTUAL testing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Snip


Are you saying your "ACTUAL testing" is better and has more credence than the "Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas" does?
Sorry but that seems a rather overbearing statement to be making.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Are you saying your "ACTUAL testing" is better and has more credence than the "Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas" does?
> Sorry but that seems a rather overbearing statement to be making.


If everything is in theory only then accidents wouldn't have written Handbooks and nothing would have been written

Also another thing, if the cables will "only" carry 150W per plug and traces then what are the LN2 crowd doing? Intentionally hoping for blown traces and wires? Hell no man. The GPUs pull WELL over 1000W when they are OC'd on LN2


----------



## doyll

Hand book of
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> If everything is in theory only then accidents wouldn't have written Handbooks and nothing would have been written
> 
> Also another thing, if the cables will "only" carry 150W per plug and traces then what are the LN2 crowd doing? Intentionally hoping for blown traces and wires? Hell no man. The GPUs pull WELL over 1000W when they are OC'd on LN2


"Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas" is not theory, but researched and tested information .. the same as electrical codes and tables.

What you say has do data backing or extensive testing to back it up.

You say "only", not me. I look at ratings and codes .. the standard of the industry. Often what is being done is not what should be done.

Could you please supply us with links to 1000w being used by GPU? Would love to read and learn all about it.


----------



## HandsomeChow

I think DaveLT here is correct. While the Traces and Wires are certainly rated at a limit. That is for safety reasons and it can draw more power through them and they will handle it fine if cooled right. E.g LN2 mode. But under normal operation, i think they pull less than 1000 watts and it also depends on the load of the GPU and the memory as well.

And what does single rail and multi rail actually mean? I've seen jonnyguru's reviews and disassembles multiple times from single rail PSU and they still contain multiple 12V outputs. Is the single rail thing a term for a PSU with a single 12V rectification compartment?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

daves correct..i saw a clip recently of a 4 way sli ln2 bench session with titan black cards and they used 4 Evga 1200w psus...
cause 1 isnt enough for that crazy stuff...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HandsomeChow*
> 
> I think DaveLT here is correct. While the Traces and Wires are certainly rated at a limit. That is for safety reasons and it can draw more power through them and they will handle it fine if cooled right. E.g LN2 mode. But under normal operation, i think they pull less than 1000 watts and it also depends on the load of the GPU and the memory as well.
> 
> And what does single rail and multi rail actually mean? I've seen jonnyguru's reviews and disassembles multiple times from single rail PSU and they still contain multiple 12V outputs. Is the single rail thing a term for a PSU with a single 12V rectification compartment?


Rated for safety reasons means not drawing more power through them safely.









Single rail is on power source. Multi rail is multiple power sources.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Rated for safety reasons means not drawing more power through them safely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Single rail is on power source. Multi rail is multiple power sources.


In a power supply, there is only one circuit that generates 12 volt DC. Even if there are multiple rails, all 12 volt lines come from the same place. The purpose of the multi rails system is to provide better protection. The logic is; three 10 amp breakers (rails) protecting a single 30 amp source are safer than one 30 amp breaker (rail); 30 amps (if shorted) can melt metal.
This is a very old concept. Example; one line comes into your house into a breaker box, then the breaker box distributes the power. Without the box, you would have 100 to 250 amps running to each wall socket.

There may be exceptions to this rule in the case of like 1500 watt PSs, but there are no exceptions that I know of. There are single rail 1500 watt PS's available.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> In a power supply, there is only one circuit that generates 12 volt DC. Even if there are multiple rails, all 12 volt lines come from the same place. The purpose of the multi rails system is to provide better protection. The logic is; three 10 amp breakers (rails) protecting a single 30 amp source are safer than one 30 amp breaker (rail); 30 amps (if shorted) can melt metal.
> This is a very old concept. Example; one line comes into your house into a breaker box, then the breaker box distributes the power. Without the box, you would have 100 to 250 amps running to each wall socket.
> 
> There may be exceptions to this rule in the case of like 1500 watt PSs, but there are no exceptions that I know of. There are single rail 1500 watt PS's available.


Single rail PSUs have a single power supply.
Multi rail PSUs have more than one power supply .. and sometimes have / had more than one 12v power supply.

"Supply" or source of power is not the same as the "circuit" or "circuits". The source or sources of power may supply one or many cirucits.

The amount of power a single rail or each rail in a multi rail supplies is dependent of on the rating of the rail.

As I remember it, the industry originally went multi-rail for safety in not have too much power on a single rail in case of problems on the rail cirucit. As you say most now use single rail with breakers to limit / control multiple circuits.

I've always preferred single rail with breakers because there is no worry about balancing the load of different rails.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

dave can we all get back to the actual pupose of this thread...aircooling and cooling....think we are all getting to side tracked here:thumb:


----------



## X-PREDATOR

hey i think i found the jetflo fan youtube clip i talked about before...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OjeffPRo1bU&itct=CBMQpDAYDSITCLH_9cPsicECFWUGwgodmHcA-1IbQ29vbGVyIE1hc3RlciBqZXRmbG8gc2VyaWVz&client=mv-google&hl=en-GB&gl=ZA

theres a rad optimzed fan at 35-38 mm thick with wider blades..


----------



## DaveLT

And who's fault do you think it is?

Well, the jetflo 120 IS also a good ran fan. There is no such thing as an "rad optimized fan" It is simply wider that's all, if you want to have more static pressure go for a thicker blade.
CM has dropped the Jetflo line anyway as far as my understanding goes


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> And who's fault do you think it is?
> 
> Well, the jetflo 120 IS also a good ran fan. There is no such thing as an "rad optimized fan" It is simply wider that's all, if you want to have more static pressure go for a thicker blade.
> CM has dropped the Jetflo line anyway as far as my understanding goes


You say thicker blade for more static pressure.
To me this drawing shows the definition of each dimension. Is this the same as yours?


----------



## Elohim

Quote:


> I've always preferred single rail with breakers because there is no worry about balancing the load of different rails.


"single rail with breakers" = multi rail


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elohim*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> I've always preferred single rail with breakers because there is no worry about balancing the load of different rails.
> 
> 
> 
> "single rail with breakers" = multi rail
Click to expand...

Indeed.
Breakers perform the same safety function that the limited power of each rail did in multi-rail PSUs.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

so what..your blaming me? dave? seriously..im not the one goin off about electrical circuits and stuff..

whateva floats your boat dude...im trying to make a mends..but at same time tryin to get you to take charge and get things on track..
if your really not that interested..why keep this thread goin at all?
theres so much for others to learn but instead..
everybodys argue ing about irrelevant nonsense...


----------



## tatmMRKIV

I got cougar PWM fans.. they are out for delivery...

this way I don't have to mod anything, make needless noise. and still have descent static pressure for rads


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> so what..your blaming me? dave? seriously..im not the one goin off about electrical circuits and stuff..
> 
> whateva floats your boat dude...im trying to make a mends..but at same time tryin to get you to take charge and get things on track..
> if your really not that interested..why keep this thread goin at all?
> theres so much for others to learn but instead..
> everybodys argue ing about irrelevant nonsense...


I'm not suggesting you're the one bro. Another word : Try to at least make your sentences more readable ... I can hardly understand.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> I got cougar PWM fans.. they are out for delivery...
> 
> this way I don't have to mod anything, make needless noise. and still have descent static pressure for rads


Overrated fans. Only rubbish fans make needless noise and they DO NOT have decent static pressure for rads that's for sure


----------



## tatmMRKIV

so what send them back n get corsair ones then?

I am getting sick of this bull... I just want some fns for my radiator that dont require me to manufacture my own parts

delta fans are overrated.... too much work and unrealistic for a actually used computer


----------



## DaveLT

What sort of mod? My deltas are ready to be used for the get go. I have never bothered to mod the deltas that don't work from the start for PCs.
In fact, mod what? There's nothing to be modded.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Making a reverse pwm fan controller


----------



## Sniping

yay I got my fans today.

the sound of airflow rings through my room


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Making a reverse pwm fan controller


What for? Like I said my delta PWM fans aren't reverse PWM

another thing, some motherboard chipsets (Can't say the same for all) actually supports reverse PWM signal outputs
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sniping*
> 
> yay I got my fans today.
> 
> the sound of airflow rings through my room


Nice


----------



## vlaint

I came across this sanyo fan in our local electronics shop model is 9g1212h1m037 cant seem to find any info on them on the net. Does anyone know about this model?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> I came across this sanyo fan in our local electronics shop model is 9g1212h1m037 cant seem to find any info on them on the net. Does anyone know about this model?


It's a standard 9G and it's a medium speed model by the looks of it. I have no idea what H1 stands for though.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Making a reverse pwm fan controller


Every Delta Ive bought worked on my motherboard headers or a pwm splitter with no mods at all. The only ones Ive had issues with were some of the ones I took out of dell servers and changed the pin layouts. still work through voltage control though.

Ive had both the 1400rpm 120 and the 1300rpm 140mm cougar PWM fans, the 140 is badly balanced and has almost no pressure to push through my windowed side panel on my 300r, the 120 barely even makes a breeze at full rpm through the same grille.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

I am returning them obviously but i am not[\strike] GETTING DELTAS. Gentle typhoon ap15s or alpenphons i guess

I guess i will hack the deltas i have and then only buy a few.

So i have some pfc and afb 2 wire she fans. I am gonna put one type on one side of rad and one on the other and try to use a controller to make up for speed difference.

So with this theory what fan should be on what side of the radiator? 151cfm she fans and 3.6amp afb fans. Are what i am workin with.


----------



## Luke Cool

I just educated myself on trace capacities, and I thought I might pass the info along.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Most traces made are at one ounce per square foot, this is there thickness - 1.344 mils = 0.001344 inches
Heavy copper is thicker and rarely seen. Its traces are made at three ounces per square foot, this is there thickness - 4.2 mils = 0.0042 inches thick
1/8 = .125 ** An 8th of an inch is a very wide trace.
Standard trace - .125 x 0.0042 inches = 0.000525 inches squared
Heavy copper - .25 x 0.0042 inches = 0.00105 inches squared
The area or a circle - Area = (pi) x the radius squared
14 gauge wire - r =0.032 inch *** 3.14 x (0.032 inch x 0.032) = .00322 inches squared
16 gauge wire - r =0.0254 inch *** 3.14 x (0.0254 inch x 0.0254) = .002026 inches squared
Bottom line:
An 8th of an inch wide Heavy copper trace will carry .142 amps
A 16 gauge wire will carry 3.7 amps.
For a Standard trace to have the same current rating as a 16 gauge wire, it would have to be 1.504 inches wide, and Heavy copper at half an inch wide.

I looked at several motherboards and graphics cards.
Most of the traces going to the rectifier are very wide.
The coils capacitors transistors and traces were all very close to the same rating.
In many, the trace appears to be the weaker part of the circuit, but this does not matter.
In all cases, the hole circuit was over built.
Mother Board failures are almost always within an IC.


----------



## DaveLT

VRMs have rectifiers? Bro, you realize what you just posted?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

dave any suggestions for fans?

im looking at getting 4-6 fans over weekend or next week
my choices are

http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/corsair-sp120-performance-edition-twin-pack-120mm-black-fans-p-8369.html (not to bad..but noise issues)

or

http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/cooler-master-xtraflow-120mm-p-7639.html (these are my current fans..they do ok..just very short cables)

or

http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/cooler-master-jetflo-120mm-p-10457.html (not to fond of these..if it was a 9 blade design and wider they get my vote)

???????

http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/bitfenix-spectre-120mm-black-p-11476.html

and this maybe for rear..front..and side panel?
http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/bitfenix-spectre-140mm-black-p-9501.html

any one care to share thoughts


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> VRMs have rectifiers? Bro, you realize what you just posted?


Your right, its a transistor.
Mofset are also transistors- metal-oxide-semiconductor field-effect transistor. I corrected the post. Thanks for the heads up.
A rectifier is electrical device that converts an alternating current into a direct one by allowing a current to flow through it in one direction only.
(the above message is to show that I agree with you and understand why you commented.)


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Anyways i just want to know if theres anyway that my idea about having the afb fans and pfc in a specific order could work because i dont want to buy many more fans.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> Luke, if you ever think about how a die was connected to it's package you'll see why a PCB trace is not the weakest part of the circuit.!


The strength of the electrical circuits we use is important to all of us. Traces are in our fans and almost every device you see in a computer. Words come so easy with no facts or analyses to back them. Transistors are not nearly as frail as ICs. The trace and the material around it will not take nearly the heat a transistor is built to take.



I finish My electronics training in 1977. I was a Avionic Navigation Systems Specialist in the USAF. I repaired and maintained aircraft radar and ground support navigation equipment on combat and non-combat aircraft. Additionally, I performed depot class repair of same electrical equipment for the Pacific (including circuit board troubleshooting and repair). In my over 40 year of experience on aircraft, office equipment and computers, I have seen a lot more traces burnt and damaged from heat, than I have transistors. To me, experience wins over theory and mere words every time. That being said, in my experience with personal computers, if there is an electrical problem and the power supply is good, ICs and bad connections are the problem 99% of the time. I have repaired hundreds of computers. Bad connections, worst first; memory sockets, graphic card socket, CPU sockets, and ATX connector. In a personal computer, the only places I have ever seen a burnt trace, is in a power supply or next to a bad connector on the motherboard. I work on mostly retail computers, where the configuration is safe (if you don't count their poor choice in power supplies). Enthusiast build, overload, fry and replace there own stuff. See their burnt traces at the URL below (assumption).
https://www.google.com/search?q=burnt+traces+on+printed+circuit+board&biw=1451&bih=852&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=wTcvVOzDGIK7yQSB2oHgCQ&ved=0CCAQsAQ


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> I am returning them obviously but i am not[\strike] GETTING DELTAS. Gentle typhoon ap15s or alpenphons i guess
> 
> I guess i will hack the deltas i have and then only buy a few.
> 
> So i have some pfc and afb 2 wire she fans. I am gonna put one type on one side of rad and one on the other and try to use a controller to make up for speed difference.
> 
> So with this theory what fan should be on what side of the radiator? 151cfm she fans and 3.6amp afb fans. Are what i am workin with.



If you have a nice fan controller, I don't see a difference. But don't take my word for it, do some test an see what gives the best temperatures.
Life is (and fan configurations are) full of surprises.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Forsure. I got enough to experiment with so i guess ill just see for myself.
Btw with my she -4f1b fans seeing as they have 2 wires cut before the end of the frame. If i were wire those up would they work?


----------



## Arizonian

/thread cleaned

Please, enough with the personal arguing. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, please respect each other by allowing that and move on.

Much appreciated.

_If you have any questions, feel free to PM me. Do not discuss Off Topic here._


----------



## Red1776

An JG Article on Single VS Multi rail PSU

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> An JG Article on Single VS Multi rail PSU
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990


Good read, thanks. I read like half and i'l finish it later


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> An JG Article on Single VS Multi rail PSU
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990


I am a fan, I read his stuff often. I read this a few years ago. It gives a great insight to how the PS's rail system works. Thanks for linking us to this valuable resource.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> An JG Article on Single VS Multi rail PSU
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990
> 
> 
> 
> I am a fan, I read his stuff often. I read this a few years ago. It gives a great insight to how the PS's rail system works. Thanks for linking us to this valuable resource.
Click to expand...

Luke & Cyro,

Certainly. I do as well and it has become my favorite article for those who get spooked by a very large Single rail PSU and are afraid the they will "burst into flames" I like to cross reference it with the review from JG on my AX1200W where they ran it @ 1548w at continual load with zero problems.


----------



## Luke Cool

I like the 70% power supply load rule, it's kind of a golden rule, I see it often. The reasons are talked about some in the Jonny Guru rail article. Used at or under 70 %, the power supply runs cool and stays in a very efficient operating range.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I like the 70% power supply load rule, it's kind of a golden rule, I see it often. The reasons are talked about some in the Jonny Guru rail article. Used at or under 70 %, the power supply runs cool and stays in a very efficient operating range.


 Yup, that has been my rule for a very long time


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Still if that single rail does go out for whatever reason.it will take out the entire system


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Still if that single rail does go out for whatever reason.it will take out the entire system


And that is exactly why you do not (as we have been saying for years and years) Don't skimp on the PSU.










really though, there are a lot of components that if they let go will or can take out everything.

I personally vastly prefer single rail PSU's


----------



## DaveLT

Any CRAP power supply that goes out will kill a system, multi rail or not.
A proper power supply has all the protection you need that's why but it is a bit of a stretch if a GPU does short out (I've heard of it happening before) I wonder what happens if the cables can withstand it... But seeing as it did happen before it probably happened too fast anyway to blow a cable.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1389090/gtx680-burst-into-flames-need-help-please/0_50


----------



## tatmMRKIV

So why do you say single rail is the emd all be all of power supply units.

I got 3x evga g2 1300 psus for my current project and one antec 1200 Watt continuous power true power quattro i got a while back for cheap that i dont really rely on i heard some scary stuff about it

On topic, is there any difference performance wise between a 8way siftech pwm splitter with a sata power input and molex power input?


----------



## wes1099

I feel like a better title for this would be OCN Dave's Fan Guide


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> So why do you say single rail is the emd all be all of power supply units.
> I got 3x evga g2 1300 psus for my current project and one antec 1200 Watt continuous power true power quattro i got a while back for cheap that i dont really rely on i heard some scary stuff about it.


I like the single rail PS because I don't have to manage the rails. The multiple rail PSs are a little more expensive and maybe a little safer. But I am with DaveT on this; I work on a lot of computers, and have never seen a safety mishap concerning a PS's single rail system.
How scary, and who from?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> On topic, is there any difference performance wise between a 8way siftech pwm splitter with a sata power input and molex power input?


http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html
4.5 amps for the SATA, 5 amps for the Molex


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wes1099*
> 
> I feel like a better title for this would be OCN Dave's Fan Guide


If it was a fan guide I'll just be talking endlessly about fans


----------



## Luke Cool

I have an idea; instead of using the fans for push pull, use them In a pulling v-configuration.
It would stick out the top of your case, but would look wonderfully radical as it did so.
With four 100 CFM fans (2 push, 2 pull), you would have 200 CFM of air going through the radiator.
With four 100 CFM fans in an enclosed V configuration (2 on each side), you would have 400 CFM of air going through the radiator.
In the V config, you could run the fans at a lower, quieter RPM, and still have a much cooling running system. On the first part of the drawing, the front is open so you can see the fan placement. But when finished, a cover goes there to seal that area.

What do you all think?


----------



## DaveLT

Done and done before.
1) you need a lot of space. And it's really A LOT which we can't afford the space taken up
2) A fan performs better when the direction of the air is being parallel.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Done and done before.
> 1) you need a lot of space. And it's really A LOT which we can't afford the space taken up
> 2) A fan performs better when the direction of the air is being parallel.


Did you do a log or take any pictures, I'd love to see it. How were the numbers?
There is room on top of the case, and if it is well built, it would look good. Finding room inside the case would be difficult.
The fans being away from the radiator's surface, and pressurizing a container to blow a regulated uniform flow across that entire surface, It seems, would have a huge benefit. As X-PREDATOR pointed out, it would act like a shroud holding a fan a ways away from the radiator's surface and eliminate the fan hub's blank airflow space.
I believe the direction of the air being parallel would consume an extravagant amount of space for very little to no benefit. The losses due to the radiator's opposition to air flow would be higher
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> that's why shrouds works so good often..to help direct the airflow path.


Great point.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I like the single rail PS because I don't have to manage the rails. The multiple rail PSs are a little more expensive and maybe a little safer. But I am with DaveT on this; I work on a lot of computers, and have never seen a safety mishap concerning a PS's single rail system.
> How scary, and who from?
> http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html
> 4.5 amps for the SATA, 5 amps for the Molex


i think i read a review or 2 on newegg about it bursting into flames. And the fan on it dies i think causing it to burst into flames


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ive got two setups in my room..
one has a single rail psu at 750w -+70amps
single rail
while the other is a 750w +- 70amps dual rail psu..

ive used both psus on other systems and not 1time had any instability issues..
and the old rule of having to manage the rails dont always apply...not with modern psus of today...only thing that can cause issue on multirail psu is if you overload one rail which also applies to a single rail system..
if both types are made with cheap parts and very weak filtering stages it will go and might cause problems eventualy

luke...ive seen what you mean and ive got an idea for that..if you were to mount the rad outside vertical by horizontal in length
you can use those air duct tunnel tubes to create a sealed shroud on both ends inbetween the fans..creating a vortex tunnel effect..ive seen a mod like this..but the coolest ive seen is a guy on guru3d who had a custom top acrylic panel which was his actual res...


----------



## tatmMRKIV

I asked a question about my controller in a separate paragraph, and it was answered. No need to continue that.

He asked me what scary stuff i heard about my psu, so i told him. Not sure what was so vague about that


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> dave any suggestions for fans?
> 
> im looking at getting 4-6 fans over weekend or next week
> my choices are
> 
> http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/corsair-sp120-performance-edition-twin-pack-120mm-black-fans-p-8369.html (not to bad..but noise issues)
> 
> or
> 
> http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/cooler-master-xtraflow-120mm-p-7639.html (these are my current fans..they do ok..just very short cables)
> 
> or
> 
> http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/cooler-master-jetflo-120mm-p-10457.html (not to fond of these..if it was a 9 blade design and wider they get my vote)
> 
> ???????
> 
> http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/bitfenix-spectre-120mm-black-p-11476.html
> 
> and this maybe for rear..front..and side panel?
> http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/bitfenix-spectre-140mm-black-p-9501.html
> 
> any one care to share thoughts


exact same dilemma as above


----------



## tatmMRKIV

None of them? Corsair sp are overrated
http://www.performance-pcs.com/noiseblocker-nb-eloop-b12-4-120mm-x-25mm-ultra-silent-bionic-blade-fan-2400-rpm-34-29-dba.html
Gentle typhoon ap15 or gentle typhoon 5400rpm
Or http://www.alpenfoehn.de/index.php/en/fans 120mm fans from whag i xan find out


----------



## DaveLT

If they still have scythe stock that is, NIDEC (the design manufacturers from the start) doesn't exactly have a good retail channel.

Or a swiftech helix. Ain't bad that fan.
As for the nb eloop too darn expensive and if you ask me it's DELTA FULL STEAM AHEAD


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Those scythe fans are in stock at performancepcs for sure
Maybe frozen.

As for the noiseblockers being too expensive... imo all fans are too expensiv3

Are there any good thermaltake fans in my rig with 5 different and this Pla12025s12hh-lv seems to move the most air. Vs a cougar and a bgear


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Those scythe fans are in stock at performancepcs for sure
> Maybe frozen.
> 
> As for the noiseblockers being too expensive... imo all fans are too expensiv3
> 
> Are there any good thermaltake fans in my rig with 5 different and this Pla12025s12hh-lv seems to move the most air. Vs a cougar and a bgear


No AP-15.

Not really.

Nope it's a rubbish fan. The other one is overrated and the last one feels incredibly cheap... The last time I felt plastic like it it contained tic tacs!


----------



## smithydan

Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP15 are available coolerguys


----------



## X-PREDATOR

guys..IM IN SOUTH AFRICA have you got any clue how expensive taxes and shipping costs are from abroad?
ive got an acc with Perf pcs..but never use it....it will cost me over 1k just to get stuff sent here....

i dont have that kinda moola just lying around all the time:thumb:


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Lol actually i do have an idea. Yeah just get some delta fans make sure they are the right ones


----------



## Red1776

So short of having the professional equipment for the testing of fans CFM, SP etc. what layman's test do you consider to demonstrate that a fan is a good radiator fan?

Just curious.


----------



## Dimensive

Alright, I have a Fractal Design Arc Mini case with 2 fans up front as intakes, the rear is an exhaust, the top/back is an exhaust, and a Phanteks PH-TC12DX cooler with both fans set to exhaust. Should the top/back fan be an intake fan?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> So short of having the professional equipment for the testing of fans CFM, SP etc. what layman's test do you consider to demonstrate that a fan is a good radiator fan?
> Just curious.


Feel, I put my hand up to the radiator. If I feel a good amount of air flow, That means heat will be carried away on this air flow,

Here is another way.
https://www.google.com/#q=wind+meter&tbm=shop&spd=13898851859103564700


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dimensive*
> 
> Alright, I have a Fractal Design Arc Mini case with 2 fans up front as intakes, the rear is an exhaust, the top/back is an exhaust, and a Phanteks PH-TC12DX cooler with both fans set to exhaust. Should the top/back fan be an intake fan?


I would make it exhaust. I am a believer in negative flow setups most of the time.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> So short of having the professional equipment for the testing of fans CFM, SP etc. what layman's test do you consider to demonstrate that a fan is a good radiator fan?
> Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> Feel, I put my hand up to the radiator. If I feel a good amount of air flow, That means heat will be carried away on this air flow,
> 
> Here is another way.
> https://www.google.com/#q=wind+meter&tbm=shop&spd=13898851859103564700
Click to expand...

Yeah,

it was was a semi- rhetorical question. I hope to demonstrate a point down the line here. Thanks Luke


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dimensive*
> 
> Alright, I have a Fractal Design Arc Mini case with 2 fans up front as intakes, the rear is an exhaust, the top/back is an exhaust, and a Phanteks PH-TC12DX cooler with both fans set to exhaust. Should the top/back fan be an intake fan?


Yes an intake.


----------



## doyll

There are some very good reviewers who test fans using a radiator or air cooler instead of an anemometer. The monitor the CPU heat instead of air speed through the radiator / cooler. The better the fan flows air, the lower the CPU temp.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> There are some very good reviewers who test fans using a radiator or air cooler instead of an anemometer. The monitor the CPU heat instead of air speed through the radiator / cooler. The better the fan flows air, the lower the CPU temp.


Yep,

The kind of guys who focus on the purpose. The thing is, some of them are not pushing things over the edge.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> There are some very good reviewers who test fans using a radiator or air cooler instead of an anemometer. The monitor the CPU heat instead of air speed through the radiator / cooler. The better the fan flows air, the lower the CPU temp.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> There are some very good reviewers who test fans using a radiator or air cooler instead of an anemometer. The monitor the CPU heat instead of air speed through the radiator / cooler. The better the fan flows air, the lower the CPU temp.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep,
> 
> The kind of guys who focus on the purpose. The thing is, some of them are not pushing things over the edge.
Click to expand...

Agreed, this one will be done pushing all components to the limit dissipating every possible watt.

Quote:


> The kind of guys who focus on the purpose.


That has been and is my approach to things rather than the way it looks on paper which is what many get hung up on.

Thanks guys.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

so many damn variables


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> so many damn variables


lol

damn right


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> so many damn variables
> 
> 
> 
> lol
> 
> damn right
Click to expand...

uh-huh,

thats been my point all along.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

variety indeed....
just a pitty our retailers here dont care to cater for all the needs here.
and then all options here are bogus according to our host..


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> variety indeed....
> just a pitty our retailers here dont care to cater for all the needs here.
> and then all options here are bogus according to our host..


Capitalism at it's finest.

Though in defense to them, people will buy out things they like. Not necessarily the things that are perfect to their needs. And nothing's perfect.

The best fan for me, for example will not be the best one for you. etc etc

This is what this forum stands for.

Inform people. So they can at least narrow down the selection.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> 
> 
> I have an idea; instead of using the fans for push pull, use them In a pulling v-configuration.
> It would stick out the top of your case, but would look wonderfully radical as it did so.
> With four 100 CFM fans (2 push, 2 pull), you would have 200 CFM of air going through the radiator.
> With four 100 CFM fans in an enclosed V configuration (2 on each side), you would have 400 CFM of air going through the radiator.
> In the V config, you could run the fans at a lower, quieter RPM, and still have a much cooling running system. On the first part of the drawing, the front is open so you can see the fan placement. But when finished, a cover goes there to seal that area.
> 
> What do you all think?


a turbulence creator !
I might work, but it'll be noisy


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> variety indeed....
> just a pitty our retailers here dont care to cater for all the needs here.
> and then all options here are bogus according to our host..
> 
> 
> 
> Capitalism at it's finest.
> 
> Though in defense to them, people will buy out things they like. Not necessarily the things that are perfect to their needs. And nothing's perfect.
> 
> The best fan for me, for example will not be the best one for you. etc etc
> 
> This is what this forum stands for.
> 
> Inform people. So they can at least narrow down the selection.
Click to expand...

Right. I am trying to pick the minds of the likes of X, Luke, Doyll, etc because I have a dual project and article I am working on and while cooling seems to be the most contentious subject on the boards, I am am trying to

circum navigate this and basically demonstrate what mus1mus for instance said above.

In my water cooled quad build I have at least three what would be considered 'No-No's'

I have however by changing or modifying some of the variables made it work and work very well. In fact I have an incredibly low Delta Temp cooling 4 high end OC GPU's and a heavily OC'd CPU. Much like Luke's outside the box thinking with his angled 120 fans, I want to encourage people to try to (and demonstrate) that just because it may not appear to work on paper, or others shout it down, changes in some of the variables can have terrific results with non-conventional setups.

I appreciate you folks and your ongoing input and thoughts.









Greg


----------



## X-PREDATOR

my pleasure.care to show me towards pics of you monstrous rig...4gpus..man how do peeps afford that..i cant even cap out for a mere 760..

back to cooling..
i just watched two CM blademasters in push config.BEAT 4 JETFLOS in push pull on a Seidon 240

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh4onFJBl7A&itct=CBcQpDAYDSITCP27iuOkncECFTAMwwodkRQAoVIKc2VpZG9uIDI0MA%3D%3D&hl=en-GB&gl=ZA&client=mv-google

so do you think the jetflos are still great value dave? eat this clip...mr delta...


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> my pleasure.care to show me towards pics of you monstrous rig...4gpus..man how do peeps afford that..i cant even cap out for a mere 760..
> 
> back to cooling..
> i just watched two CM blademasters in push config.BEAT 4 JETFLOS in push pull on a Seidon 240
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh4onFJBl7A&itct=CBcQpDAYDSITCP27iuOkncECFTAMwwodkRQAoVIKc2VpZG9uIDI0MA%3D%3D&hl=en-GB&gl=ZA&client=mv-google
> 
> so do you think the jetflos are still great value dave? eat this clip...mr delta...


 Hey X,

Sure, not a problem.

There are two builds and the project is called the AMD High Performance Project:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1473361/amd-high-performance-project-by-red1776

http://www.overclock.net/t/1473361/amd-high-performance-project-by-red1776/500#post_22918912


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> my pleasure.care to show me towards pics of you monstrous rig...4gpus..man how do peeps afford that..i cant even cap out for a mere 760..
> 
> back to cooling..
> i just watched two CM blademasters in push config.BEAT 4 JETFLOS in push pull on a Seidon 240
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh4onFJBl7A&itct=CBcQpDAYDSITCP27iuOkncECFTAMwwodkRQAoVIKc2VpZG9uIDI0MA%3D%3D&hl=en-GB&gl=ZA&client=mv-google
> 
> so do you think the jetflos are still great value dave? eat this clip...mr delta...


Whatever floats your boat mate. What I maintain is a good fan is what I maintain, if you don't want to buy them it's up to you

BladeMasters are loud and not much airflow for the noise it puts out and like I already said the SP120 is actually worse than the Jetflo through a radiator and the blademasters is definitely lower than a SP120


----------



## bond32

Probably been covered a lot already, but what is the recommended fan thats cheap to run at 5V for radiators? 38mm prefered...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Probably been covered a lot already, but what is the recommended fan thats cheap to run at 5V for radiators? 38mm prefered...


I have never actually covered that because there aren't that many 12038 variants that I can test in my room despite having a case full of deltas..








Probably WFB1212HE or AFB1212HE


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I have never actually covered that because there aren't that many 12038 variants that I can test in my room despite having a case full of deltas..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably WFB1212HE or AFB1212HE


Dang those still aren't cheap but not expensive either... What about 25mm @ 5v?

The pickle: I have 3 AP-14's coming in for a thick 360 rad. Currently have a thin 360 rad w/ 3 yate loon high speed fans at 5V and they seem to run well. Can order either 3 more AP-14's which would cost about the same as 6 or more yate loon's...

Total rad space is 1680mm this is just one portion


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Well the problem i find is that companies are lying their asses off about specs, and none of them do everything well.
You cant get quiet and move alot of air.
You cant get alot of air moved and good static pressure.

and everything that is descent is 20$+


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Dang those still aren't cheap but not expensive either... What about 25mm @ 5v?
> 
> The pickle: I have 3 AP-14's coming in for a thick 360 rad. Currently have a thin 360 rad w/ 3 yate loon high speed fans at 5V and they seem to run well. Can order either 3 more AP-14's which would cost about the same as 6 or more yate loon's...
> 
> Total rad space is 1680mm this is just one portion


http://www.cwc-group.com/4715kl04wb20.html (If you don't mind not having speed sensors)
http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212he.html
http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212vher00.html ( and use this link if you are buying this one http://www.cwc-group.com/22013037.html should be option A )

As for 25mm
http://www.cwc-group.com/4710kl05wb30.html (If you don't mind not having speed sensors)
http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212hr00.html
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Well the problem i find is that companies are lying their asses off about specs, and none of them do everything well.
> You cant get quiet and move alot of air.
> You cant get alot of air moved and good static pressure.
> 
> and everything that is descent is 20$+


Not really. Swiftech Helix is decent and they're not lying about the specs even if it's a GT clone. And you can get San Ace 9S PWM models for like 13$ ...
I've also got some deepcool GF120s (2000rpm version) that really are the bomb, costs less than 15$ and looks fantastic plus it actually performs well


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> http://www.cwc-group.com/4715kl04wb20.html (If you don't mind not having speed sensors)
> http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212he.html
> http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212vher00.html ( and use this link if you are buying this one http://www.cwc-group.com/22013037.html should be option A )
> 
> As for 25mm
> http://www.cwc-group.com/4710kl05wb30.html (If you don't mind not having speed sensors)
> http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212hr00.html
> Not really. Swiftech Helix is decent and they're not lying about the specs even if it's a GT clone. And you can get San Ace 9S PWM models for like 13$ ...
> I've also got some deepcool GF120s (2000rpm version) that really are the bomb, costs less than 15$ and looks fantastic plus it actually performs well


Awesome, thanks. I'll look into these for sure. As for those helix fans, imo they are some of the most under-rated fans out. They perform well... For $10. Pretty darn good, same with the Rosewill Hyperbola which is a decent fan for $10.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ive never seen a deepcool fan be quiet..not even when not spinning..their loud..rattle like crazy...
the more you say tamato the more ill say
potatoe..
yes the fans are crap..but then why do they do so good when applied properly?
ive been in touch with CM for a while now..reporting each and every hickup ive ever come across with CM items...so hopefully theyll improve on them..
it started when i needed help with an item in regards to win8.1 & so forth..good services from them so far and quick responses..

you can say what ya want but that youtube clip doesnt lie dave..and ill even contact jayZtwo sents from than channel myself..and invite him to this thread..and if that doesnt "float your boat"
ill invite linus Sebastian..from
linus tech tips


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> ive never seen a deepcool fan be quiet..not even when not spinning..their loud..rattle like crazy...
> the more you say tamato the more ill say
> potatoe..
> yes the fans are crap..but then why do they do so good when applied properly?
> ive been in touch with CM for a while now..reporting each and every hickup ive ever come across with CM items...so hopefully theyll improve on them..
> it started when i needed help with an item in regards to win8.1 & so forth..good services from them so far and quick responses..
> 
> you can say what ya want but that youtube clip doesnt lie dave..and ill even contact jayZtwo sents from than channel myself..and invite him to this thread..and if that doesnt "float your boat"
> ill invite linus Sebastian..from
> linus tech tips


I think what one of the other members said was best: "too many variables". There are entirely too many things to account for with variation in testing things like this. Not saying any one test is right or wrong... Just that it is very complicated to compare fans when the actual true results from one compared to another are so small.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> I think what one of the other members said was best: "too many variables". There are entirely too many things to account for with variation in testing things like this. Not saying any one test is right or wrong... Just that it is very complicated to compare fans when the actual true results from one compared to another are so small.


His words are what you can say an attack from someone who is predominantly opposed to everything I say not you of course.

I've been using Deepcool fans for ages and not one has died on me or RATTLED.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

its not an attack or trying to prevoke you..
im trying to show you that you cant just keep telling everybody who asks for help that its just this or that product...or this or that way...you must me more open minded
dave...thats my point im trying to make here..how did that other bro say
to many variables...thats exactly it..
theres a huge variety out there and you cant force people by saying just jetflo or just deepcool or delta all the time?
seriously...
if you were in my country you would understand my reasoning..trust me..if
you did..youll be begging to go home within a day..
around here..people buy whats available and saves costs...
would you pay 500bucks for 1 fan?

oh..i invited JayZ to this thread..lets see if he does say yes to my request...how youll stack up against him...cause atleast he has hard proof..a youtube channel ..of his tests


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Probably been covered a lot already, but what is the recommended fan thats cheap to run at 5V for radiators? 38mm prefered...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Dang those still aren't cheap but not expensive either... What about 25mm @ 5v?
> 
> The pickle: I have 3 AP-14's coming in for a thick 360 rad. Currently have a thin 360 rad w/ 3 yate loon high speed fans at 5V and they seem to run well. Can order either 3 more AP-14's which would cost about the same as 6 or more yate loon's...
> 
> Total rad space is 1680mm this is just one portion


Picked up a bunch of fans last weekend. All Used Deltas. AFB1224s and EFB1212 High Speeds. All 25mms.

I was surprised to see the AFB1224s still spinning at 5V!, being rated for 24Volts! Nice find I guess. At 12 Volts, they are as quiet as their 12V counterparts running at 5V.

Thing is, I will end up having the same rad space as yours. 2 - 480s and 2-360s bare minimum on my project. And is already up to a point of completing my needed fans for a push-pull on all them rads (all EFB triblades).

I am contemplating on using fan controllers but might as well just do it simple. Jerry-Rig them fans to run on 2 modes. 5V and 12V via a simple switch.

Haven't tried the 38mm AFBs but I reckon, 25mms will be just fine. IMO, they are simply the best out there.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> ive never seen a deepcool fan be quiet..not even when not spinning..their loud..rattle like crazy...
> the more you say tamato the more ill say
> potatoe..
> yes the fans are crap..but then why do they do so good when applied properly?
> ive been in touch with CM for a while now..reporting each and every hickup ive ever come across with CM items...so hopefully theyll improve on them..
> it started when i needed help with an item in regards to win8.1 & so forth..good services from them so far and quick responses..
> 
> you can say what ya want but that youtube clip doesnt lie dave..and ill even contact jayZtwo sents from than channel myself..and invite him to this thread..and if that doesnt "float your boat"
> ill invite linus Sebastian..from
> linus tech tips


Deepcools are fine. Just pick the right ones. They are relatively cheaper, but with some QC issues. Tolerances are just inconsistent. And some are simply FUGLY









They are silent as well ( talking of their decent ones) while cheaper ones have issues with their blades being too flexible that rattles with speed.

On a note, I got all my Deltas for about $3 each used. No-brainer isn't it?














If I end up with abused ones, I can just throw them away. Knowing the fact that they are still cheaper than anything I can get.


----------



## bond32

Where did you find those for that cheap?? As for the fan controller, pretty sure you already have it covered but I will use an NZXT grid, just flip the molex pins to 5 V from 12 V and done.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Where did you find those for that cheap?? As for the fan controller, pretty sure you already have it covered but I will use an NZXT grid, just flip the molex pins to 5 V from 12 V and done.


It's a local mecca here in the country. Just sold on the streets.

But talking to them, supplies come from Korea.

I would like to have better control. i.e Benching at 12V and Daily Use at 5V. I can make my own Power Strip for this. Use a double pole/double through toggle switch and done..


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Cool mus1mus..but thats there..in my
Country even a single sp120 can go as high
as 200bucks a pop..excluding shipping costs..afterwards its close to 300..
Deltas are impossible to get.
Cool..the ones you chuck can actualy serve a purpose- fan shrouds


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Cool mus1mus..but thats there..in my
> Country even a single sp120 can go as high
> as 200bucks a pop..excluding shipping costs..afterwards its close to 300..
> Deltas are impossible to get.
> Cool..the ones you chuck can actualy serve a purpose- fan shrouds


,i find that hard to beleive, otherwise alex wouldnt have any anime figure


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> http://www.cwc-group.com/4715kl04wb20.html (If you don't mind not having speed sensors)
> http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212he.html
> http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212vher00.html ( and use this link if you are buying this one http://www.cwc-group.com/22013037.html should be option A )
> 
> As for 25mm
> http://www.cwc-group.com/4710kl05wb30.html (If you don't mind not having speed sensors)
> http://www.cwc-group.com/afb1212hr00.html
> Not really. Swiftech Helix is decent and they're not lying about the specs even if it's a GT clone. And you can get San Ace 9S PWM models for like 13$ ...
> I've also got some deepcool GF120s (2000rpm version) that really are the bomb, costs less than 15$ and looks fantastic plus it actually performs well


so you found one company that isn't lying about it's fans rating


----------



## X-PREDATOR

hard to believe what?

look for yourself..i dont live in the city..im close to 200km away from the nearest city or any supplier or pc shops...so i must use delivery services which go from 50-300 on any given day and im obligated to
use the shops chosen couriers

http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/corsair-sp120-performance-edition-120mm-black-p-8368.html?osCsid=97d8696r5ueuin3dhfn3223h14


----------



## mus1mus

lol

Some people can't just comprehend on other people's situations.









Here, Noctuas are for the RICH. Gentle Typhoons are being sold about the same no matter what model you will get for about 25$.

Cougars are somewhat the sweet-spot round here. (sorry Dave, you might hate them or me but they are somewhat sufficient to what my other rig needs)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> lol
> 
> Some people can't just comprehend on other people's situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here, Noctuas are for the RICH. Gentle Typhoons are being sold about the same no matter what model you will get for about 25$.
> 
> Cougars are somewhat the sweet-spot round here. (sorry Dave, you might hate them or me but they are somewhat sufficient to what my other rig needs)


Well if it something you justify spending on deltas (My deltas are also cheap as ... you know. Even cheaper than crappy fans)

Noctuas are also extremely overpriced. As for GTs my local distro here used to sell them cheaper than a Jetflo or a SP120 and he is in the talks with Nidec to start selling the Nidec branded ones.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Well if it something you justify spending on deltas (My deltas are also cheap as ... you know. Even cheaper than crappy fans)
> 
> Noctuas are also extremely overpriced. As for GTs my local distro here used to sell them cheaper than a Jetflo or a SP120 and he is in the talks with Nidec to start selling the Nidec branded ones.


I bet you are talking about daz.

Well, them cougars looked good. Performs quite enough for Rads (they suffer on Pure Air Cooling).

If a GT is cheaper than those Cooler Masters and Corsairs, hmm.. I'd go GT.


----------



## i_ame_killer_2

Is CM Jetflo 120 still the "best" PWM fan? I want as quite fans as possible while still have good flow. This is for casefans in a 900D.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *i_ame_killer_2*
> 
> Is CM Jetflo 120 still the "best" PWM fan? I want as quite fans as possible while still have good flow. This is for casefans in a 900D.


Get Nidec GTs. Or deltas like I've always said ...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *i_ame_killer_2*
> 
> Is CM Jetflo 120 still the "best" PWM fan? I want as quite fans as possible while still have good flow. This is for casefans in a 900D.


For quiet and good airflow I always use automatic speed control on case fans. info in link below.


----------



## mfdoom7

should i buy 4 cooler master jetfo or 4 corsair sp120 quiet editon for front and top intake ? case is zalman z3 plus white


----------



## mfdoom7

ultracheap 92mm xilence fan to dvd rom slot and i got 2c* lower cpu temp


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfdoom7*
> 
> should i buy 4 cooler master jetfo or 4 corsair sp120 quiet editon for front and top intake ? case is zalman z3 plus white


The JetFlo's are much more powerful, so great additions for the front.


----------



## mfdoom7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> The JetFlo's are much more powerful, so great additions for the front.


but i have mesh in front and filter. does jetflo have good static pressure ?


----------



## KaiserPhantasma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfdoom7*
> 
> should i buy 4 cooler master jetfo or 4 corsair sp120 quiet editon for front and top intake ? case is zalman z3 plus white


again same dilemma even though I have the money to buy delta's (can't buy it since its not available in our country :/)


----------



## mfdoom7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaiserPhantasma*
> 
> again same dilemma even though I have the money to buy delta's (can't buy it since its not available in our country :/)


delta makes some good fans ikr. but what fans are better ? jetflo or sp120 ?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

use the jets for case fans..
intake and out..
and the sp for cooling on the cooler or rad..
i saw a clip where the jets had to run at much higher rpm to keep up with other fans..
so its 50/50..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfdoom7*
> 
> delta makes some good fans ikr. but what fans are better ? jetflo or sp120 ?


Jetflo for intake and even rads. This is what I suggest. If you want to listen to others go ahead.


----------



## mfdoom7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Jetflo for intake and even rads. This is what I suggest. If you want to listen to others go ahead.


so in front i have mesh and filter then still the jetflo will push air ?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfdoom7*
> 
> so in front i have mesh and filter then still the jetflo will push air ?


Absolutely. Unless 2.72mm H2O is tiny which it isn't. A SP120 is not too far with 3.1mmH2O

That said ... The deltas I use for my rads are as follows :
AFB1212H
2500rpm
82.67cfm
6.25mm H2O 38.5dBA
And you start to realize why I use primarily deltas. The B7AZ Nidec may have similar airflow but their noise levels are not too far off and that only achieves 5.08mm H2O at 36.5dBA
But on top of that ... I can get a delta afb1212h PWM for like 4$ whereas I can't with a GT. Cheapest I can find is 20$ and Sanyo 9S is too slow for me. I want something with moar peak speed and a low PWM minimum speed ( Delta AFB-H is 550rpm)

The AFB-H also will operate at 5V so it isn't a slacker. The best part is that they don't hum ... if your fan controller voltage output isn't uh, dirty.


----------



## doyll

Also the Nidec, Sanyo and Delta specs are real. Consumer fan specs more often than not need to be taken with a heavy dose of salt.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

that is true..but no one has answerd me yet?
how can the fans that are being stated as crap..perform still well?
heck my 3yr old Xtra Flos @25% 1200rpm manage to keep me well under the 50's on the cpu..maxes at 43-47 under load..
gpu doesnt even see 40...and their not top qaulity fans at all...

so my ???stands dave?
if cougars..sp's..CM..fans..noctuas..are all so
crap..how cum they still do the job so good?
like i said earlier...everything wrong ive ever seen in person i report to their brand.so they can improve..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Also the Nidec, Sanyo and Delta specs are real. Consumer fan specs more often than not need to be taken with a heavy dose of salt.


Yea. But in your testing the jetflo actually came close to a san ace in terms of "air pushed" through a rad right?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yea. But in your testing the jetflo actually came close to a san ace in terms of "air pushed" through a rad right?


True.

Some consumer fan spec are accurate. For example Thermalright and Noctua specs are often slightly below actual test results.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

and others?
specs dont.mean anything in real world application to me..its whether it can keep up and hold down the fort..my threshold for max temps is 65..my erea is very hot in summer so im a bit cautious on temps...
if my or any system i do goes over that..ill shut it off and rethink the outlay...
ok good news..client finaly paid up..
so now its choosing time.
im very tempted to just get same fans i have now..


----------



## tatmMRKIV

so dave what deltas should I try n get?
there are alot of different models on ebay today
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wholesale-Bulk-Lot-of-18-Apple-Mac-Pro-A1186-Case-Fans-Delta-AFB1212HHE-/281365003548?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4182a93d1c
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-12-Fans-6-Nidec-V34809-90-and-6-Delta-Electronics-TFC1212DE-/161443514581?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2596c888d5
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FFB1212SHE-F00-DELTA-FAN-DC-12V-LOT-OF-22-NEW-UNITS-IN-ORIGINAL-BOX-/321524202163?pt=US_CPU_Fans_Heatsinks&hash=item4adc55fab3
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-Electronics-DC-Brushless-Fan-AFB1212LE-Lot-of-35-/271584480944?pt=US_Server_Fans_Cooling_Systems&hash=item3f3bb24eb0
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8X-AFB1212SH-Delta-Electronics-FAN-120x120x25mm-12V-0-8A-Speed-Ctrl-From-EU-/131314432580?pt=US_Computer_Case_Fans&hash=item1e92f33a44


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> so dave what deltas should I try n get?
> there are alot of different models on ebay today
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wholesale-Bulk-Lot-of-18-Apple-Mac-Pro-A1186-Case-Fans-Delta-AFB1212HHE-/281365003548?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4182a93d1c
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-12-Fans-6-Nidec-V34809-90-and-6-Delta-Electronics-TFC1212DE-/161443514581?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2596c888d5
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/FFB1212SHE-F00-DELTA-FAN-DC-12V-LOT-OF-22-NEW-UNITS-IN-ORIGINAL-BOX-/321524202163?pt=US_CPU_Fans_Heatsinks&hash=item4adc55fab3
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-Electronics-DC-Brushless-Fan-AFB1212LE-Lot-of-35-/271584480944?pt=US_Server_Fans_Cooling_Systems&hash=item3f3bb24eb0
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/8X-AFB1212SH-Delta-Electronics-FAN-120x120x25mm-12V-0-8A-Speed-Ctrl-From-EU-/131314432580?pt=US_Computer_Case_Fans&hash=item1e92f33a44


AFB HHE or
AFB SH


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> that is true..but no one has answerd me yet?
> how can the fans that are being stated as crap..perform still well?
> heck my 3yr old Xtra Flos @25% 1200rpm manage to keep me well under the 50's on the cpu..maxes at 43-47 under load..
> gpu doesnt even see 40...and their not top qaulity fans at all...
> 
> so my ???stands dave?
> if cougars..sp's..CM..fans..noctuas..are all so
> crap..how cum they still do the job so good?
> like i said earlier...everything wrong ive ever seen in person i report to their brand.so they can improve..


Can you provide metrics on you claim?

Screenshots showing your temps on stress

Ambient temps

Cooling details

Rig

Etc. Etc.

To further prove your claims..

this is not to bash you or anything. I just wanna know how you got such low temps even when on another post, you are saying your ambient goes high during summer..


----------



## Vario

Has anyone ever tried a 140mm on a PHTC12DX?

The corners of the tower don't get much airflow due to the 120mm fan circumference. Dust buildup also indicates this. Sadly I don't have any high-performance 140mm fans to test this.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

check my profile for pics mate and the threads im in theres plenty of proof...
ive got nothing to hide..
yes i did say that and its true...reason for still good temps is i dont use the system during the day or leave it on to burn 24/7 like 80% of the world does to their rigs and waste resources in the process..
i keep my room closed up most of the time to keep temps down also


----------



## Vario

I run two 3 pin Cougars in my ITX because I don't have the space for a fan controller and they work fine for me. Essentially silent and move similar air quantity to a regular fan that is undervolted to the same sound volume. Didn't strike me as a good heat sink fan though.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ive seen on the net people use them on
rads..aircoolers.including the likes of d14/S.arrow..phanteks & AIO units..and they all returned to say great fans..low rpm..low noise.good airflo..good overall..
then thrres the minute few who had issues..but then theres always an issue smwhere with some kinda product....
but if we all kept just gunning for the faults with items..then none of us would have running pcs..theyd all just be huge...expensive paper weights..

i need to ask for support from every1 possible..even admins..theres a member ..a dear friend..who i consider to be a brother.
whos ill and goin thru hard times..but he still trotting and contributes to the community...i want to get support from OCN and every one to show a fellow member the respect and support i think he deserves...so please...if any one is interested to show some TLC..pm me and ill tell you who it is..im not openly going to say who it is out of respect for his privacy


----------



## Curleyyy

I was interested in the Delta's, though I can't find stock in Australia, and can't be bothered waiting on ordering them from America. Umart's literally down the road















( http://www.umart.com.au/umart1/pro/Products-details.phtml?id=10&id2=227&bid=3&sid=158252 )

Just wanting to confirm that they'll work on my Corsair H100i radiator.

Current fans are 2700 RPM @ 74 CFM, 38 dBA
These fans are 2000 RPM @ 95 CFM, 36 dBA


----------



## Vario

Yes it should.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> I was interested in the Delta's, though I can't find stock in Australia, and can't be bothered waiting on ordering them from America. Umart's literally down the road
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ( http://www.umart.com.au/umart1/pro/Products-details.phtml?id=10&id2=227&bid=3&sid=158252 )
> 
> Just wanting to confirm that they'll work on my Corsair H100i radiator.
> 
> Current fans are 2700 RPM @ 74 CFM, 38 dBA
> These fans are 2000 RPM @ 95 CFM, 36 dBA


It definitely will







And as far as I recall the SP120L used in them is REALLY loud. I really mean REALLY LOUD even in a sea of deltas


----------



## Curleyyy

Oh sweet!! I don't find them all that loud. You can hear them across the other side of the house, three or four rooms away. Perhaps I've become accustomed to them haha.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> Oh sweet!! I don't find them all that loud. You can hear them across the other side of the house, three or four rooms away. Perhaps I've become accustomed to them haha.


LOL. Maybe you have indeed. Their (SP120L) noise level is more sort of a FFB1212VHE which is pretty loud in it's own right. But it's not loud for a desk fan, which I use incidentally


----------



## Curleyyy

I picked up two CM Jetflo fans today along with Noctua NT-H1 thermal paste. It was half the price compared to AS5 paste and seemed to be better in tests. I've noticed a 8 to 16 degree drop in temperatures. A little lower than I was expecting, though still a drop.









Also I managed to pull out one of the wires from the H100i setup. _Still works_, as long as it's sitting right. Unfortunately it doesn't want too. So I've plugged the fans into the motherboard headers and I'm controlling them through the BIOS. It actually seems to be better this way, as the Corsair Link software is absolutely terrible and doesn't like me ( the profiles don't switch properly and often kick in later than required. Also the LED resets to white upon reboot, and it's not even a white, it's a red tint. Lots of problems. *Starting to dislike Corsair lately.*









Next step, delidding and lapping!! TO THE AUTOSHOP, TO THE BENCH, TILL THE TEMPS DROP IN MY TEST.


----------



## DaveLT

I was right in saying Corsair is just about branding and that's it. No quality whatsoever.


----------



## doyll

Lots and lots of advertising hype.


----------



## bond32

Never been a "fan" of Corsair stuff, more importantly the SP120's but seems the price is pretty darn good for 2 fans:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181070


----------



## X-PREDATOR

im not sure if it helps..but you cant blame the brand directly..aim that anger and dissapointment at their OEM partners and
youll see the root of the issues.
corsair themselves are ok in my book due to their great support system.
im having more issues with Cooler Master rma support than ive ever had with any other brand...no pun intended..

@curleyy....if you ever decide to get rid of that corsair unit...pm me...
which wires exactly did you rip?


----------



## doyll

No, Corsair is the responsible party.. They have agreements in place that require a certain quality level of product from manufacturer. No different then if it was their own factory. If that quality is not met it's their problem. And if they sell defective products it's on their head, not the company they have manufacturing them.

As for Corsair customer support, have your read their warranty?

Basically it says they will only do what law requires them to do.
Quote:


> *Limitation of Liability*
> 
> CORSAIR SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF PROFITS, REVENUE, OR DATA (WHETHER DIRECT OR INDIRECT) OR COMMERCIAL LOSS FOR BREACH OF ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY ON YOUR PRODUCT EVEN IF CORSAIR HAS BEEN ADVISED PREVIOUSLY OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. Some local laws do not allow the exclusion or limitation of special, indirect, incidental or consequential damages, so this limitation or exclusion may not apply in your jurisdiction.
> 
> *Exclusion of Implied Warranties*
> 
> EXCEPT AS PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OR CONDITION OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ON THIS HARDWARE PRODUCT IS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED Some local laws do not allow limitations on how long an implied warranty may last, so this limitation may not apply in your jurisdiction.


Cut and pasted directly from their warranty page on website.
http://www.corsair.com/en-gb/support/warranty


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Corsair is scum
And currently they dont have the stock to rma high end ddr4 sticks.
Also 636cc of fury aka loud silence, sent out some high end samsung based ddr3 and got some crappy mfr in return.

Thats all ignoring the fact they charge 100$+ for any spec of any kit they sell
Corsair is the most overhyped company in computers
Really its plebware

And like dave said half their stuff is rebranded crap.
Supposedly their single rail psus are good but i dont trust my 1000s in components with anything corsair.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> im not sure if it helps..but you cant blame the brand directly..aim that anger and dissapointment at their OEM partners and
> youll see the root of the issues.
> corsair themselves are ok in my book due to their great support system.
> im having more issues with Cooler Master rma support than ive ever had with any other brand...no pun intended..
> 
> @curleyy....if you ever decide to get rid of that corsair unit...pm me...
> which wires exactly did you rip?


Everything you ever do on CM goes wrong while I didn't >.> Please.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Never been a "fan" of Corsair stuff, more importantly the SP120's but seems the price is pretty darn good for 2 fans:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181070


These are the crappier SP120s. They are seriously garbage.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Corsair is scum
> And currently they dont have the stock to rma high end ddr4 sticks.
> Also 636cc of fury aka loud silence, sent out some high end samsung based ddr3 and got some crappy mfr in return.
> 
> Thats all ignoring the fact they charge 100$+ for any spec of any kit they sell
> Corsair is the most overhyped company in computers
> Really its plebware
> 
> And like dave said half their stuff is rebranded crap.
> Supposedly their single rail psus are good but i dont trust my 1000s in components with anything corsair.


Basically all of that.


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> LOL. Maybe you have indeed. Their (SP120L) noise level is more sort of a FFB1212VHE which is pretty loud in it's own right. But it's not loud for a desk fan, which I use incidentally


They are louder than my WFB1212HH and move less air. I had a few of SP120L in 3 and 4 pin. The 4 pin PWM ones revs up and down constantly which is pretty distracting. The SP120L did work very well inside a Coolermaster V8 undervolted with a fan controller.

I haven't been happy with very many Corsair products, I have a set of triple channel ram XMS3 2000 mhz that isn't really stable at XMP and I picked up a set of 2x8GB XMS3 in a trade with a very dead stick. My H100i only lasted about 9 months before it quit on me. My Corsair mouse mat works great and my corsair DDR2 laptop ram works great.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

you keep reading between the lines incorrectly..
its the manufacturers behind the products which are to blame..
doesnt matter what you say dave we all have different expierences with different scenarios..instead of being a bitter old dude about everything i say..just rather ask why? why do i have issues..


----------



## tatmMRKIV

No corsair manufactures corsair ram... Its probably their bread n butter.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> No corsair manufactures corsair ram... Its probably their bread n butter.


Corsair doesn't manufacture their RAM. They just take other's products and slap their heatspreader on it.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Well not the ICs but they do all the binning and they make the pcb just like every other RAM company aside from samsung, hynix, crucial, and elpida.

If corsair doesnt make its own ram neither does adata, avexir, g. Skill, kingston,

Corsair has that stupid pcb design with that proprietary cable hookup for corsair link


----------



## X-PREDATOR

now thats were ill agree..the link software is the worse software ive ever seen..
if they just hired the people behind the rivatuner (afterburner these days) and justt gave it a new UI it might have actualy
worked...but 90% of the time it fails..
they couldve also just included a touch screen fancontroller instead to give full manual control
like what CM did with the hybrid psu line up.
something that shows psu fan/temp & volts on the screen by selecting psu section
then a seperate tab for other stuff..

couldve been great..


----------



## Vario

I hear corsair has a new swords logo that is really cool









(http://www.overclock.net/t/1514977/legit-reviews-gamers-start-petition-to-keep-old-corsair-logo)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Well not the ICs but they do all the binning and they make the pcb just like every other RAM company aside from samsung, hynix, crucial, and elpida.
> 
> If corsair doesnt make its own ram neither does adata, avexir, g. Skill, kingston,
> 
> Corsair has that stupid pcb design with that proprietary cable hookup for corsair link


Corsair doesn't even make the PCB themselves. Yes the others don't either they only do the binning.

Who says foxconn cannot accept custom PCBs? You don't have to set up a factory for a stupid pcb design you know, that's what PCB fabs are for.


----------



## Curleyyy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Never been a "fan" of Corsair stuff, more importantly the SP120's but seems the price is pretty darn good for 2 fans:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181070


The two CM Jetflo fans I picked up were the same price, and put out more air, and are quieter, lol.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @curleyy....if you ever decide to get rid of that corsair unit...pm me...
> which wires exactly did you rip?


One of the two Y fan connectors where you plug in two fans into the corsair block. One of the wires is loose.


----------



## mus1mus

Cheapo Triblades.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

@predator. thats not even the worst paret they just released the corsaircommander mini.. for 60$
I have a metal box corsair link controller and it was 30 and came with a donglethat had pretty much everything the new mini commander has...

Literally they ditched the only part that probably cost them money to make so infinite profit now

that commander setupo I have is so appalling though.
I mean it has the ports to support 40+fans but you can't get the dongle to convert their crap proprietary corsair link setup to the fans or temp sensors
and then they release the corsair mini hich literally is one of those dongles but without the proprietary connector to the control box...

FOR 60 freaking dollars http://www.corsair.com/en-us/cpu-coolers/corsair-link-kits

yeah last I was playing with CM they were the kings of the PSU game. back in 09?
those were the days. when ddr3 was new








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Corsair doesn't even make the PCB themselves. Yes the others don't either they only do the binning.
> 
> Who says foxconn cannot accept custom PCBs? You don't have to set up a factory for a stupid pcb design you know, that's what PCB fabs are for.


Well if they don't make their ram I don't think they make anything.
because they seem to make alot of fuss about their ram.

thats freaking lame how everyone just gets their stuff from foxconn

last I heard foxconn was pretty scummy
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vario*
> 
> I hear corsair has a new swords logo that is really cool
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (http://www.overclock.net/t/1514977/legit-reviews-gamers-start-petition-to-keep-old-corsair-logo)


You mean the tramp stamp xD?

that was pretty much my final straw in forsaking corsair
I would never buy one of the products they put it on for other reasons but justknowing they used a freaking lower back tattoo as a logo.. Just makes me lose all faith in them as a reputable company


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Well if they don't make their ram I don't think they make anything.
> because they seem to make alot of fuss about their ram.


They make their own ram heatsinks


----------



## tatmMRKIV

well if you want to be precise about it. all they probably do is the IC screening.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> yeah last I was playing with CM they were the kings of the PSU game. back in 09?
> those were the days. when ddr3 was new


CM has never been kings of the PSU game


----------



## tatmMRKIV

maybe not the king but they were good.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> maybe not the king but they were good.


Most of their units were mediocre or some even downright dangerous and all the top-end enhance units were too overpriced. To be the king you must be well-priced or just so well-performing that no one else compares and even then the top-end enhance units were just sort of good.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Most of their units were mediocre or some even downright dangerous and all the top-end enhance units were too overpriced. To be the king you must be well-priced or just so well-performing that no one else compares and even then the top-end enhance units were just sort of good.


The CM V1000 does just that. At least here. Not gonna say the same for the higher models though. The unit is cheaper than any Seasonic's produce.

But yeah, V1000 might just be CM's saving grace..


----------



## X-PREDATOR

why are my posts being removed each time here?

may be mediocre..but still good.
a bud of mine has the gen 1 gx750..by all standards it was a crap unit..but luck has favoured him since 3yrs ago he baught it and has never had a issue with it..
the silent pro gold/silent pro + m units arent platinum kings but perform pretty decent.id still pick it over the budget corsair units like the gs series..those are terrible..

ok back to fans ect...dave you rave about the jetflos...if i was to buy a few and try them out..and if they end up giving same results as my current fans or worse...will you reimburse me the costs if i prove their no good for heatsinks or rads...?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> The CM V1000 does just that. At least here. Not gonna say the same for the higher models though. The unit is cheaper than any Seasonic's produce.
> 
> But yeah, V1000 might just be CM's saving grace..


Right now, yeah. Like the V1200. Unfortunately, SuperFlower is already ahead of the game.


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> why are my posts being removed each time here?
> 
> may be mediocre..but still good.
> a bud of mine has the gen 1 gx750..by all standards it was a crap unit..but luck has favoured him since 3yrs ago he baught it and has never had a issue with it..
> the silent pro gold/silent pro + m units arent platinum kings but perform pretty decent.id still pick it over the budget corsair units like the gs series..those are terrible..
> 
> ok back to fans ect...dave you rave about the jetflos...*if i was to buy a few and try them out..and if they end up giving same results as my current fans or worse...will you reimburse me the costs if i prove their no good for heatsinks or rads...?*


I think that is the most ridiculous post I have seen yet...

Are you serious??

That's like taking your car to get the oil changed and the mechanic there tells you that you can get better fuel mileage if you put synthetic oil in your car... Then you tell him, "ok, if I don't get a single MPG better, will you reimburse me for this oil change?"


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> I think that is the most ridiculous post I have seen yet...
> 
> Are you serious??
> 
> That's like taking your car to get the oil changed and the mechanic there tells you that you can get better fuel mileage if you put synthetic oil in your car... Then you tell him, "ok, if I don't get a single MPG better, will you reimburse me for this oil change?"


If someone is trying to sell me something costing 3 times as much as normal part saying it will give me better milege and is not willing to guarantee it by reimbursing me for the added cost if it not true is good reason not to buy it.









Synthetic oil does in fact improve mileage run longer between oil changes (still need to change filter), but even with the saving in fuel the added cost makes just about balance the cost difference. Biggest advantage of synthetic is viscosity .. it doesn't thicken at lower temps.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

not stupid or silly..id like to prove something to dave...like a little bet...if im wrong ill accept the facts..if im right
he coughs up...simple as that


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> not stupid or silly..id like to prove something to dave...like a little bet...if im wrong ill accept the facts..if im right
> he coughs up...simple as that


Well proving someone wrong or right in this forum, won't and does not work that way.

If you are keen on proving something, do it at all cost. Not by trying to do a betting game with somebody you wanna prove wrong or right.

Something in this forum circles to giving people (noobs!) the information they will need. Experienced people like you and Dave, Doyll etc. helped a lot of guys here. No need to discredit one another.

Post a proof. And let everyone know the results you are getting. All for the spirit of the thread and this forum for the community.








not picking neither side here.


----------



## Vario

Just buy the fans you like, if someone else doesn't like it, that's their problem. For those that don't have fans already, they can rely on expert advise from some of the experts in this this thread instead of MFG overstated specs and advertising gimmicks (colored rings?







)


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> If someone is trying to sell me something costing 3 times as much as normal part saying it will give me better milege and is not willing to guarantee it by reimbursing me for the added cost if it not true is good reason not to buy it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthetic oil does in fact improve mileage run longer between oil changes (still need to change filter), but even with the saving in fuel the added cost makes just about balance the cost difference. Biggest advantage of synthetic is viscosity .. it doesn't thicken at lower temps.


That isn't the point. Yes, on paper, you can show facts how it would improve mileage. But do you actually think that one person's usage of a vehicle between oil changes is EXACTLY the same as when they ran with regular oil opposed to synthetic? No. There's too many changing variables, ranging from driving style, weather, time, speed...

Same is the case here. You can put any one of the recommended delta fans in a spot in an air cooled PC, record some temps, then change it for whatever xx fan to compare. You MIGHT see one or two degrees difference between the two, good or bad. There are entirely too many changing factors.

When people like Dave recommend fans, there's probably many other factors they account for such as price, durability...


----------



## mfdoom7

is wd-40 good for fan lubricading ? and how ofen should i do it ?


----------



## Vario

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfdoom7*
> 
> is wd-40 good for fan lubricading ? and how ofen should i do it ?


absolutely not. WD40 is for loosening stuck hinges and not designed for long term bearing lubrication. It is too thin and will dry up, after displacing the existing oils. Then you will have no oil in your bearing at all. You can use sewing machine oil, light automotive motor oil, or silicon fan lube.

I use this kind of thing in my fans, works well http://www.amazon.com/Zoom-Spout-Sewing-Machine-Oiler/dp/B004JOEDCE


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfdoom7*
> 
> is wd-40 good for fan lubricading ? and how ofen should i do it ?


I would use a thin oil like 15W-30 for oiling bearings and WD40 is not a lubricant at all







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> I think that is the most ridiculous post I have seen yet...
> 
> Are you serious??
> 
> That's like taking your car to get the oil changed and the mechanic there tells you that you can get better fuel mileage if you put synthetic oil in your car... Then you tell him, "ok, if I don't get a single MPG better, will you reimburse me for this oil change?"


I knew he's taking out of his ... whatever and i saw it coming so I muted him. I've never actually muted anyone on OCN but ... yeah.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

well im on the hunt for certain items first..i need a new mouse..ssd and fans..in between i want to get either the cm280XL or 140XL..i lov my phanteks but i need more space at the moment

ill get two jetflos and see how they are...if temps drop ill post all results..if their same as now or worse...ill burn it to the ground


----------



## DeBethune

Gonna be interesting seeing some of those results from x-pred. Thanks for the info btw Dave, as a soon to be first time builder in a few days this will be some food for thought.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> That isn't the point. Yes, on paper, you can show facts how it would improve mileage. But do you actually think that one person's usage of a vehicle between oil changes is EXACTLY the same as when they ran with regular oil opposed to synthetic? No. There's too many changing variables, ranging from driving style, weather, time, speed...
> 
> Same is the case here. You can put any one of the recommended delta fans in a spot in an air cooled PC, record some temps, then change it for whatever xx fan to compare. You MIGHT see one or two degrees difference between the two, good or bad. There are entirely too many changing factors.
> 
> When people like Dave recommend fans, there's probably many other factors they account for such as price, durability...


Saying "Fan A generally outperforms fan B is not the same as saying "Fan A is better than fan B" or "38mm fans > 25mm fans". For many applications 25mm fans are just as good as (sometimes better then) 38mm fans.


----------



## mfdoom7

bought cm jetflo and its good in general use but this is not that good in cooling with fat fan filters.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

MUTE ALL YOU wANT..at least im not backing down to the challenge


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> MUTE ALL YOU wANT..at least im not backing down to the challenge


What is this I'm not hearing?
I'm not the one who created any challenge, you did not me.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

http://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0


----------



## tatmMRKIV

THIS is a fan controller
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0fwvqz1ex9y8cc8/20141016_184451.jpg?dl=0

My fan controller...
as long as they are all the same fans.
I am thinking of using it for those 5Krpm GTs
you know because they are just power fans + rpm sensor

how much is it to set up a fan test chamber?
just so I can estimate some things


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> http://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0


Nice one.







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> THIS is a fan controller
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0fwvqz1ex9y8cc8/20141016_184451.jpg?dl=0
> 
> My fan controller...
> as long as they are all the same fans.
> I am thinking of using it for those 5Krpm GTs
> you know because they are just power fans + rpm sensor
> 
> how much is it to set up a fan test chamber?
> just so I can estimate some things


Doesn't take much but it took me a massive load of noise cancellation foam and making sure to run the tests when my room is at its quietest. That is to wait 'til the noise levels are around 17-18dB ambient of course that's with my windows fully shut and it really is possible to get it that quiet considering I have extremely thick rebar and brick walls


----------



## X-PREDATOR

will do once i get them...currently at crossroads with supplier to acquire new aio cooler..so just wait a bit till i do get it going...
my baseline will be the phanteks
phtc14pe 's temps vs a aio liquid cooler with same fans..same config as now..


----------



## Bertovzki

Ok Hi all, I'm seeking opinions,generally I always go for best performance and this is one area to have max performance.But that said, before discovering some good reviews and the debate going on here, I had already ordered one Aerocool DS 140 for rear intake.

My rig has so far 750D + XSPC RX360 V3 up top, with 3 x SP120 QE Exhaust.

I am still deciding between RX 240 or EX 280 in front, as I was wanting to take full use of the 140mm opening in the front and the high static pressure of the much improved 140mm fans nowdays,originally thinking 2 x Aerocool DS up front, or push pull x 4 for exhaust at front , and 2 x DS 140 in bottom intake, and 1 x rear for intake,
Until I saw the Akasa Viper 140 and I see it has better performance than the DS.

I don't like the looks or colour of anything " better performing " than these 2 fans.
Do you think I'm spliting hairs between these 2 fans and just stay with the DS or is the Viper well worth changing all my fans ?, I guess I want all the same type Viper or DS for colour sceem, including replacing the 3 x SP120's

Any opinions of feedback about fan choice etc.. appreciated


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

Hey @DaveLT,

I was wondering what other high end heatsinks are out there besides the D14 and the PH-14PE around the $75ish range.

Are there any comparable heatsinks to these at a lower price point?

I really like the Phanteks one, but with the included fans, it wont fit in the NZXT S340 that I just ordered. The max cooler height is 161mm. I was thinking about ordering the Phanteks and using the included fans as front intake case fans. If I were to replace the fans for 120mm fans in order for the heatsink to fit, what would you recommend besides the Jetflos? I have a pair of Rosewill Hypoborea fans that I got for $9 each a while back, and they are pretty much rebrands of the Akasa Apache fans. What are your thoughts on those as fans on a tower cooler?

Also, I know that you are a big proponent of Deltas, but where do you buy those fans?

Are you a proponent of Scythe Ultra Kaze fans? They are like $11 on Amazon and I just wanted an opinion on them.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultra-m-a-n*
> 
> Hey @DaveLT,
> 
> I was wondering what other high end heatsinks are out there besides the D14 and the PH-14PE around the $75ish range.
> 
> Are there any comparable heatsinks to these at a lower price point?
> 
> I really like the Phanteks one, but with the included fans, it wont fit in the NZXT S340 that I just ordered. The max cooler height is 161mm. I was thinking about ordering the Phanteks and using the included fans as front intake case fans. If I were to replace the fans for 120mm fans in order for the heatsink to fit, what would you recommend besides the Jetflos? I have a pair of Rosewill Hypoborea fans that I got for $9 each a while back, and they are pretty much rebrands of the Akasa Apache fans. What are your thoughts on those as fans on a tower cooler?
> 
> Also, I know that you are a big proponent of Deltas, but where do you buy those fans?
> 
> Are you a proponent of Scythe Ultra Kaze fans? They are like $11 on Amazon and I just wanted an opinion on them.


 with that hieght limitation, you might try this from Thermalright

http://www.thermalright.com/html/products/cpu_cooler/hr22.html?panel=1

http://www.thermalright.com/html/products/cpu_cooler/hr-02_macho_reva.html?panel=1


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> with that hieght limitation, you might try this from Thermalright
> http://www.thermalright.com/html/products/cpu_cooler/hr22.html?panel=1


Wow that thing is big









Is it on Amazon?

I know the D14 will fit in the s340, someone confirmed that the other day and it will have a mm or two to spare, but I dont like how it looks, mainly because of the fans.
Also it is only $72 on Amazon currently and its Prime eligible, so free shipping to my APO address here in Germany.

So, pretty much what I am asking is a better performer and value than the D14 at a lower cost.

EDIT:
How far can the center fan on the PH-14PE be pushed down? It looks like the middle fan on the cooler is what is going to cause clearance issues. Anyone with experience with this?


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Ultra-m-a-n*
> 
> Hey @DaveLT,
> 
> I was wondering what other high end heatsinks are out there besides the D14 and the PH-14PE around the $75ish range.
> 
> Are there any comparable heatsinks to these at a lower price point?
> 
> I really like the Phanteks one, but with the included fans, it wont fit in the NZXT S340 that I just ordered. The max cooler height is 161mm. I was thinking about ordering the Phanteks and using the included fans as front intake case fans. If I were to replace the fans for 120mm fans in order for the heatsink to fit, what would you recommend besides the Jetflos? I have a pair of Rosewill Hypoborea fans that I got for $9 each a while back, and they are pretty much rebrands of the Akasa Apache fans. What are your thoughts on those as fans on a tower cooler?
> 
> Also, I know that you are a big proponent of Deltas, but where do you buy those fans?
> 
> Are you a proponent of Scythe Ultra Kaze fans? They are like $11 on Amazon and I just wanted an opinion on them.
> 
> 
> 
> with that hieght limitation, you might try this from Thermalright
> 
> http://www.thermalright.com/html/products/cpu_cooler/hr22.html?panel=1
> 
> http://www.thermalright.com/html/products/cpu_cooler/hr-02_macho_reva.html?panel=1
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultra-m-a-n*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> with that hieght limitation, you might try this from Thermalright
> http://www.thermalright.com/html/products/cpu_cooler/hr22.html?panel=1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow that thing is big
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it on Amazon?
> 
> I know the D14 will fit in the s340, someone confirmed that the other day and it will have a mm or two to spare, but I dont like how it looks, mainly because of the fans.
> Also it is only $72 on Amazon currently and its Prime eligible, so free shipping to my APO address here in Germany.
> 
> So, pretty much what I am asking is a better performer and value than the D14 at a lower cost.
Click to expand...

 Try the second one, built on the same idea, a bit smaller. Youcan use a different fan with better SP as well.


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Try the second one, built on the same idea, a bit smaller. Youcan use a different fan with better SP as well.


The Macho 120 will fit







its also $45 on Amazon!

Thanks, now I want to see how this thing performs...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Ok Hi all, I'm seeking opinions,generally I always go for best performance and this is one area to have max performance.But that said, before discovering some good reviews and the debate going on here, I had already ordered one Aerocool DS 140 for rear intake.
> 
> My rig has so far 750D + XSPC RX360 V3 up top, with 3 x SP120 QE Exhaust.
> 
> I am still deciding between RX 240 or EX 280 in front, as I was wanting to take full use of the 140mm opening in the front and the high static pressure of the much improved 140mm fans nowdays,originally thinking 2 x Aerocool DS up front, or push pull x 4 for exhaust at front , and 2 x DS 140 in bottom intake, and 1 x rear for intake,
> Until I saw the Akasa Viper 140 and I see it has better performance than the DS.
> 
> I don't like the looks or colour of anything " better performing " than these 2 fans.
> Do you think I'm spliting hairs between these 2 fans and just stay with the DS or is the Viper well worth changing all my fans ?, I guess I want all the same type Viper or DS for colour sceem, including replacing the 3 x SP120's
> 
> Any opinions of feedback about fan choice etc.. appreciated


Much improved? 140mm fans have not improved ever since I wrote this guide and they still pale in comparison to 120mm fans and yet most 140mm fans are even overrated. Especially the "SP140" from Corsair
Forget the Aerocool DS fans, they're just bling and nothing much else. I have 140mm fan slots and I can't be bothered to use 140mm instead I use 120mm fans because I get the same temps but LESS NOISE.
Otherwise, I would rather get SP120 PE or JetFlo 120 or low speed AFB Deltas (below 2500rpm), a hot favorite of mine.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultra-m-a-n*
> 
> Hey @DaveLT,
> 
> I was wondering what other high end heatsinks are out there besides the D14 and the PH-14PE around the $75ish range.
> 
> Are there any comparable heatsinks to these at a lower price point?
> 
> I really like the Phanteks one, but with the included fans, it wont fit in the NZXT S340 that I just ordered. The max cooler height is 161mm. I was thinking about ordering the Phanteks and using the included fans as front intake case fans. If I were to replace the fans for 120mm fans in order for the heatsink to fit, what would you recommend besides the Jetflos? I have a pair of Rosewill Hypoborea fans that I got for $9 each a while back, and they are pretty much rebrands of the Akasa Apache fans. What are your thoughts on those as fans on a tower cooler?
> 
> Also, I know that you are a big proponent of Deltas, but where do you buy those fans?
> 
> Are you a proponent of Scythe Ultra Kaze fans? They are like $11 on Amazon and I just wanted an opinion on them.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835856002
You may want to try this. I have actually put this into a case that supports up to 163mm WITH space to spare.
Actually if you're worried then this will do http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835856003

I'd rather do well NOT to put those hyperboreas as heatsink fans.

The scythe ultra kazes are cheap but they are incredibly noisy for what they are and being sleeve bearing fans, automatically out of my book. My delta AFC1212DE 1.6As are actually quieter than the 3000rpm UK ...


----------



## X-PREDATOR

http://www.bequiet.com/en/cpucooler

for 140mm fans..look at
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=84&lng=en


----------



## X-PREDATOR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=933KF2aqjyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aDID5S41_A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXAFYNE7Cl0

this a great example of noise in a real setup situation...hope you all enjoy this


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Much improved? 140mm fans have not improved ever since I wrote this guide and they still pale in comparison to 120mm fans and yet most 140mm fans are even overrated. Especially the "SP140" from Corsair
> Forget the Aerocool DS fans, they're just bling and nothing much else. I have 140mm fan slots and I can't be bothered to use 140mm instead I use 120mm fans because I get the same temps but LESS NOISE.
> Otherwise, I would rather get SP120 PE or JetFlo 120 or low speed AFB Deltas (below 2500rpm), a hot favorite of mine.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835856002
> You may want to try this. I have actually put this into a case that supports up to 163mm WITH space to spare.
> Actually if you're worried then this will do http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835856003
> 
> I'd rather do well NOT to put those hyperboreas as heatsink fans.
> 
> The scythe ultra kazes are cheap but they are incredibly noisy for what they are and being sleeve bearing fans, automatically out of my book. My delta AFC1212DE 1.6As are actually quieter than the 3000rpm UK ...


I'll take a look at those when I get home. I think I've seen them on Amazon.

What other consumer fans are out there that are comparable to the AP-15 and jetflo that won't break the bank?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultra-m-a-n*
> 
> I'll take a look at those when I get home. I think I've seen them on Amazon.
> 
> What other consumer fans are out there that are comparable to the AP-15 and jetflo that won't break the bank?


Um ... I'll say there aren't any.


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Um ... I'll say there aren't any.


Yeah I figured. Didn't hurt to ask!

Where do you buy Deltas? And what controller do you use to undervolt them?

Also you used to be pretty active on the PH-14PE thread, if I wanted to replace the fans with 120mm what would you recommend? Also can the middle fan be lowered to sit flush with the top of the cooler, like the first fan?

Blechhh why did Nidec and Scythe have to stop making the Typhoon... I wish I could just buy a few without wiping out my whole bank account haha


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

sorry for the double post, some third party seller on Amazon has AP15s in stock, and they are prime eligible, so I'm gonna order two. And maybe down the line get the Phanteks when I make some money









Haha I've never spent $46 on two fans, but what the hell they're still the king of quiet fans and they look amazing. I hope they last forever haha!


----------



## doyll

Thermalright Macho Rev. A comes witjh a very good fan. The TY-140 are as good as NF-A14 & NF-A15 fans.


----------



## bond32

Dang you guys... All this talk about the GT's... Now I gone n don it... Ordered another 8 AP-15's. Was not cheap.

Need 3 more AP-14's then I should be set... For now...


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Dang you guys... All this talk about the GT's... Now I gone n don it... Ordered another 8 AP-15's. Was not cheap.
> 
> Need 3 more AP-14's then I should be set... For now...


Haha 4 of them would have wiped out my entire bank account!


----------



## doyll

O
Quote:


> rOiginally Posted by Ultra-m-a-n
> Hey @DaveLT,
> 
> I was wondering what other high end heatsinks are out there besides the D14 and the PH-14PE around the $75ish range.
> 
> Are there any comparable heatsinks to these at a lower price point?
> 
> I really like the Phanteks one, but with the included fans, it wont fit in the NZXT S340 that I just ordered. The max cooler height is 161mm. I was thinking about ordering the Phanteks and using the included fans as front intake case fans. If I were to replace the fans for 120mm fans in order for the heatsink to fit, what would you recommend besides the Jetflos? I have a pair of Rosewill Hypoborea fans that I got for $9 each a while back, and they are pretty much rebrands of the Akasa Apache fans. What are your thoughts on those as fans on a tower cooler?
> 
> Also, I know that you are a big proponent of Deltas, but where do you buy those fans?
> 
> Are you a proponent of Scythe Ultra Kaze fans? They are like $11 on Amazon and I just wanted an opinion on them.


PHanteks fans cxan be lowered even with top of cool IF YOUR RAM IS LOW ENOUGH. Ram needs to be less than 22mm. ( RAM + 3mm RAM socket + fan size) = (CPU clearance + 8mm)


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Nice one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't take much but it took me a massive load of noise cancellation foam and making sure to run the tests when my room is at its quietest. That is to wait 'til the noise levels are around 17-18dB ambient of course that's with my windows fully shut and it really is possible to get it that quiet considering I have extremely thick rebar and brick walls


anything for trying to gauge static pressure and cfm? You were saying how these companies data doesnt mean much without their parameters and what not, also i wanted to see how the high rpm typhoons respond to undervolting.

Basically just get some numbers down to compare noise and performance between downvolting or just buying some of the lower rpm highspeeds


----------



## X-PREDATOR

did any check out my links..those two from JayZtwocents..should answer alot of peeps ??????'s


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Dang you guys... All this talk about the GT's... Now I gone n don it... Ordered another 8 AP-15's. Was not cheap.
> 
> Need 3 more AP-14's then I should be set... For now...


ap15s from where? Btw what is the rpm for the 15s i get mixed statistics between 1800 and 2200

Some other threads are pushing 140s on ignorant fools ):


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> ap15s from where? Btw what is the rpm for the 15s i get mixed statistics between 1800 and 2200
> 
> Some other threads are pushing 140s on ignorant fools ):


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001Q6RUVO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

$23 with prime shipping

AP-15's are 1850 rpm max. Think maybe the AP-00's are the 2200? Not positive. Personally I think the AP-15's and AP-14's are the best choice. At 5 V, the AP-15's run around 800 - 900 RPM and are pretty darn near silent. NZXT Grid + molex pin swap = no need for a fan controller


----------



## X-PREDATOR

amen to that bro...a big decent fan hub is all thats needed


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> amen to that bro...a big decent fan hub is all thats needed


The challenge is finding fans that perform well when operating at 5 V (other than the obvious Gentle Typhoons).

It would be nice for someone to release a fan controller that has high wattage capabilities but isn't $700... Something around $30 would be nice, and don't bother with attempting PWM control as no one seems to be able to get it right.

Edit: Not a bad price for this fan, no idea about it's performance: http://www.amazon.com/Silverstone-Tek-Ultra-Quiet-9-Bladed-FQ121/dp/B00INU68UA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1413566165&sr=1-1&keywords=SilverStone+FM122

$17 with $5 mail in rebate... If you're buying 6+ fans that's not a bad deal.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

http://www.amazon.com/BitFenix-Recon-Black-Controller-BFA-RCN-KS-RP/dp/B00BI4VVGY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R2xoAPPQcs

http://www.amazon.com/FC5-Channel-30W-LCD-Controller/dp/B00DQSTP0O
the fc5 v2 and 3 are just as good:thumb:


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> anything for trying to gauge static pressure and cfm? You were saying how these companies data doesnt mean much without their parameters and what not, also i wanted to see how the high rpm typhoons respond to undervolting.
> 
> Basically just get some numbers down to compare noise and performance between downvolting or just buying some of the lower rpm highspeeds


For CFM you can reuse the same box. Static pressure would require a sealed chamber that's why I cannot give numbers on static pressure unless I am doing some estimation. Only reason I managed to get static pressure numbers on the Jetflo 120 is because I managed to borrow a sealed chamber back then.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultra-m-a-n*
> 
> sorry for the double post, some third party seller on Amazon has AP15s in stock, and they are prime eligible, so I'm gonna order two. And maybe down the line get the Phanteks when I make some money
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haha I've never spent $46 on two fans, but what the hell they're still the king of quiet fans and they look amazing. I hope they last forever haha!


Absolutely lol. 23USD for a AP-15?! Geez ... I used to be able to get them for like 15USD brand new. I really do mean BRAND NEW.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultra-m-a-n*
> 
> Yeah I figured. Didn't hurt to ask!
> 
> Where do you buy Deltas? And what controller do you use to undervolt them?
> 
> Also you used to be pretty active on the PH-14PE thread, if I wanted to replace the fans with 120mm what would you recommend? Also can the middle fan be lowered to sit flush with the top of the cooler, like the first fan?
> 
> Blechhh why did Nidec and Scythe have to stop making the Typhoon... I wish I could just buy a few without wiping out my whole bank account haha


I either use PWM from my motherboard with a splitter (You know the sort with molex and PWM on one end and 4 plugs on the other) or use a FC5 clone lol.
Of course, I wouldn't use a bitfenix recon or the worse sins you could commit, a NZXT Sentry 3 (That thing is just appalling, check out my review on it)

I buy my deltas from ... Somewhere in this world. They are ridiculously cheap but 8/10 times they are fully working ... 2 of them will usually be dead.

Did I? I sort of forgot my participation in threads now, maybe there was a real storm and I left the thread. The fans on the PH-14PE are pretty good though. I'm not entirely sure about that as I haven't got a PH-14PE









Nidec is still making them but Scythe is no longer importing them. They're not that impressive actually the higher speed they are the more ineffective the design becomes. Nidec ACTUALLY claims the high speed ones can replace the 120x38 fans and after cross comparing high speed GTs and the delta 120x38mm AFBs the AFBs blow them into the dust


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> O
> PHanteks fans cxan be lowered even with top of cool IF YOUR RAM IS LOW ENOUGH. Ram needs to be less than 22mm. ( RAM + 3mm RAM socket + fan size) = (CPU clearance + 8mm)


Thanks, I just ordered the Phanteks, and I am just going to replace the fans with AP15s. I might move the 140mm to the front of the case though.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> For CFM you can reuse the same box. Static pressure would require a sealed chamber that's why I cannot give numbers on static pressure unless I am doing some estimation. Only reason I managed to get static pressure numbers on the Jetflo 120 is because I managed to borrow a sealed chamber back then.
> Absolutely lol. 23USD for a AP-15?! Geez ... I used to be able to get them for like 15USD brand new. I really do mean BRAND NEW.
> I either use PWM from my motherboard with a splitter (You know the sort with molex and PWM on one end and 4 plugs on the other) or use a FC5 clone lol.
> Of course, I wouldn't use a bitfenix recon or the worse sins you could commit, a NZXT Sentry 3 (That thing is just appalling, check out my review on it)
> 
> I buy my deltas from ... Somewhere in this world. They are ridiculously cheap but 8/10 times they are fully working ... 2 of them will usually be dead.
> 
> Did I? I sort of forgot my participation in threads now, maybe there was a real storm and I left the thread. The fans on the PH-14PE are pretty good though. I'm not entirely sure about that as I haven't got a PH-14PE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nidec is still making them but Scythe is no longer importing them. They're not that impressive actually the higher speed they are the more ineffective the design becomes. Nidec ACTUALLY claims the high speed ones can replace the 120x38 fans and after cross comparing high speed GTs and the delta 120x38mm AFBs the AFBs blow them into the dust


WOW! $15?! I freaking bit the bullet and I ordered 4 of them hahaha I figure they were already hard to find, and this is the first time I have seen them on Amazon Prime, and if I tried to track down new ones down the line I wouldnt be able to get free shipping to my APO address, and the price might be even higher!

I figure there is going to be better fans that can move much more air at higher RPMs, just because the design of the blades and the lack of depth as well. But I want a quieter computer since moving here to Germany, its so quiet here that I can here my computer from downstairs.

Also I mustve mixed you up with doyll









Mannnn I wiped out my bank account in one day hahaha, I just have to justify it by the fact that I can reuse the aircooler, and that it isnt like water cooling parts that are prone to failure and maintenance that is a hassle!


----------



## X-PREDATOR

i can vouch 110% the phanteks cooler is amazing..
on the front you can do it noctua style..
120mm front
140mm center...and yes the center fan can be lowered flush..just use a different flat mounting screw in the center
even with the included thumbscrew the center fan only edges out with a small margin..like 3-5mm..not that much to worry about realy...

the included fans are hopefully the new type and not the original type that came with it..theyre pretty quiet but have a tendancy to have a humming noise at full wack...other than that very good fans..

check a few posts back..i linked a youtube clip..a very realistic test of diff fans..from cougars to noctuas..jets..sp s..ect..and the cougars and phanteks were the most silent at 5/7 &12v out of the hole lot..


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> i can vouch 110% the phanteks cooler is amazing..
> on the front you can do it noctua style..
> 120mm front
> 140mm center...and yes the center fan can be lowered flush..just use a different flat mounting screw in the center
> even with the included thumbscrew the center fan only edges out with a small margin..like 3-5mm..not that much to worry about realy...
> 
> the included fans are hopefully the new type and not the original type that came with it..theyre pretty quiet but have a tendancy to have a humming noise at full wack...other than that very good fans..
> 
> check a few posts back..i linked a youtube clip..a very realistic test of diff fans..from cougars to noctuas..jets..sp s..ect..and the cougars and phanteks were the most silent at 5/7 &12v out of the hole lot..


Thats a thought! Ill be sure to experiment with different configs and ill see what works best!

I went with the white model because if I put black fans on the black version, thats too much black! Also Amazon was out of stock


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ill be praying for ya..amazon and newegg had some serious issues with these...
there staff was intentionally damaging the goods..the black ones was the worst...
the others werent so bad...

sorry if im scaring yo..just thaught youd wana know..


----------



## DaveLT

Looking through my photo history ...













Nope this is even better


I have a Deepcool Captain 360, Maelstrom 120 and Lucifer V2 on the way. A maelstrom 240 is actually hiding in my switch 810 actually.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultra-m-a-n*
> 
> Thanks, I just ordered the Phanteks, and I am just going to replace the fans with AP15s. I might move the 140mm to the front of the case though.
> WOW! $15?! I freaking bit the bullet and I ordered 4 of them hahaha I figure they were already hard to find, and this is the first time I have seen them on Amazon Prime, and if I tried to track down new ones down the line I wouldnt be able to get free shipping to my APO address, and the price might be even higher!
> 
> I figure there is going to be better fans that can move much more air at higher RPMs, just because the design of the blades and the lack of depth as well. But I want a quieter computer since moving here to Germany, its so quiet here that I can here my computer from downstairs.


I'm not sure ... You know, those 140mms are pretty good already and as I said before I wouldn't use a 140mm on a air intake.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Much improved? 140mm fans have not improved ever since I wrote this guide and they still pale in comparison to 120mm fans and yet most 140mm fans are even overrated. Especially the "SP140" from Corsair
> Forget the Aerocool DS fans, they're just bling and nothing much else. I have 140mm fan slots and I can't be bothered to use 140mm instead I use 120mm fans because I get the same temps but LESS NOISE.
> Otherwise, I would rather get SP120 PE or JetFlo 120 or low speed AFB Deltas (below 2500rpm), a hot favorite of mine.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835856002
> You may want to try this. I have actually put this into a case that supports up to 163mm WITH space to spare.
> Actually if you're worried then this will do http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835856003
> 
> I'd rather do well NOT to put those hyperboreas as heatsink fans.
> 
> The scythe ultra kazes are cheap but they are incredibly noisy for what they are and being sleeve bearing fans, automatically out of my book. My delta AFC1212DE 1.6As are actually quieter than the 3000rpm UK ...


Thanks for feedback I will look at this latter when I'm home from work,re- better performance, I read latter after buying my SP120's that there are 140's I mentioned ,that have better specs.

The question is why do manufacturers lie about CFM and such, and how do the get away with it,as it is false advertising , both fans I mention have much higher specs, but no one recomends them in the real world.

Thanks for reply


----------



## Red1776

Well "ignorant fools" aside I have been playing with the 140mm version of the Jet flos and they produce some very good SP.

I'm buying the 3.55mmH2O advertised

QuoteaveLT


> Much improved? 140mm fans have not improved ever since I wrote this guide and they still pale in comparison to 120mm fans and yet most 140mm fans are even overrated. Especially the "SP140" from Corsair


Well it wouls appear that CM is puting some R&D into it. I eould not have previously opted for a 140mm fan for Rad cooling either, however the Jetflo 140 seems to have broken the mold. These are very good and generate very good SP.


----------



## Ultra-m-a-n

@DaveLT

Yeah that's why I got another set of ap15s.. But the fans would if I used the 140mm fans there it would be for aesthetic reasons. Or me wanting to put the AP15 as a rear exhaust and top intake.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Well "ignorant fools" aside I have been playing with the 140mm version of the Jet flos and they produce some very good SP.
> I'm buying the 3.55mmH2O advertised
> 
> Well it wouls appear that CM is puting some R&D into it. I eould not have previously opted for a 140mm fan for Rad cooling either, however the Jetflo 140 seems to have broken the mold. These are very good and generate very good SP.


Unfortunately I do have them and they are rather extremely noisy and have quite low SP.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Thanks for feedback I will look at this latter when I'm home from work,re- better performance, I read latter after buying my SP120's that there are 140's I mentioned ,that have better specs.
> 
> The question is why do manufacturers lie about CFM and such, and how do the get away with it,as it is false advertising , both fans I mention have much higher specs, but no one recomends them in the real world.
> 
> Thanks for reply


But the "SP140" is just garbage. The new line of fans from corsair are just crap.

Because marketing, man. Consumers are the biggest fools and hardware companies such as corsair is often a big cheat (If you can sense me pun







). Why do you think M$ got away with making the same damn OS for so many years and consumers just keep sticking with it
What you're paying for on a corsair is the badge, that's all there is to it. Reminds me of which ..


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Well performance might have ap15s mislabeled as ap14s

And thats a power supply.
But thats really only if i get the highspeed fans because its rpm and 12v and ground.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@dave..
way in the start when i came to your thread we actualy talked of the jetflo 140's
and you said to me then and there
that they are amazing fans both air and sp wise..
so why dance a different song now????
2ndly..youre talking out of your own teeth saying a 140mm fan as intake is crap..
your basickly then spitting in the face of a lot of case manufacturers dude..
most of phanteks (example) cases have their 140mm fans included..
im yet to see a negative impact on temps on my own setup as
my bottom/side *2 /rear /front in 5.25bay
and center fan on my.phtc14pe..are all 140mm fans...
and ive shown countless temp readings were ever i go on my setups temps...
so dont blow the whistle so quickly bro

heck if i was smarter 3years ago..i wouldve baught ten times as many of the same fans i still have..cause theyve serve me and my pc in turn..pretty darn good...


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Well "ignorant fools" aside I have been playing with the 140mm version of the Jet flos and they produce some very good SP.
> I'm buying the 3.55mmH2O advertised
> 
> Well it woulds appear that CM is putting some R&D into it. I would not have previously opted for a 140mm fan for Rad cooling either, however the Jetflo 140 seems to have broken the mold. These are very good and generate very good SP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I do have them and they are rather extremely noisy and have quite low SP.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Thanks for feedback I will look at this latter when I'm home from work,re- better performance, I read latter after buying my SP120's that there are 140's I mentioned ,that have better specs.
> 
> The question is why do manufacturers lie about CFM and such, and how do the get away with it,as it is false advertising , both fans I mention have much higher specs, but no one recomends them in the real world.
> 
> Thanks for reply
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the "SP140" is just garbage. The new line of fans from corsair are just crap.
> 
> Because marketing, man. Consumers are the biggest fools and hardware companies such as corsair is often a big cheat (If you can sense me pun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). Why do you think M$ got away with making the same damn OS for so many years and consumers just keep sticking with it
> What you're paying for on a corsair is the badge, that's all there is to it. Reminds me of which ..
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Unfortunately I do have them and they are rather extremely noisy and have quite low SP.


I put them on both a 60mm and 45mm radiator and unless I am wrong that the idea is for the fan to push/pull air through the radiator and remove a good amount of heat with that expelled air...your above statement is incorrect.

No worries though. This is easily proved both visually, and by temperature. Something I intend to illustrate as part of my Project. I will send you the link


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> I put them on both a 60mm and 45mm radiator and unless I am wrong that the idea is for the fan to push/pull air through the radiator and remove a good amount of heat with that expelled air...your above statement is incorrect.
> No worries though. This is easily proved both visually, and by temperature. Something I intend to illustrate as part of my Project. I will send you the link


Wot? Are you implying I am totally incorrect?


I'll leave it up to you if you think I am wrong with everything. Because I actually measured 55dB on these compared to 53dB on my FFB1212VHE and we're talking about a fan with double the airflow and 4x the static pressure
Actually if you think I'm wrong what are you even doing here?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @dave..
> way in the start when i came to your thread we actualy talked of the jetflo 140's
> and you said to me then and there
> that they are amazing fans both air and sp wise..
> so why dance a different song now????
> 2ndly..youre talking out of your own teeth saying a 140mm fan as intake is crap..
> your basickly then spitting in the face of a lot of case manufacturers dude..
> most of phanteks (example) cases have their 140mm fans included..
> im yet to see a negative impact on temps on my own setup as
> my bottom/side *2 /rear /front in 5.25bay
> and center fan on my.phtc14pe..are all 140mm fans...
> and ive shown countless temp readings were ever i go on my setups temps...
> so dont blow the whistle so quickly bro
> 
> heck if i was smarter 3years ago..i wouldve baught ten times as many of the same fans i still have..cause theyve serve me and my pc in turn..pretty darn good...


Jetflo 120, not 140 and nowhere in my posts have I sung praises of the fans. All I just wanted to know what the "POM bearing" 140s were like because the ones I have bearing rattle @ 1500rpm
Does it mean case manufacturers are right? No. You are just being foolish also once again, lrn2english. I still can hardly make out what you are typing

So it boils down to this. Probably best to mute the clots that do not do anything but try to make me lose credibility by spouting rubbish


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> I put them on both a 60mm and 45mm radiator and unless I am wrong that the idea is for the fan to push/pull air through the radiator and remove a good amount of heat with that expelled air...your above statement is incorrect.
> No worries though. This is easily proved both visually, and by temperature. Something I intend to illustrate as part of my Project. I will send you the link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wot? Are you implying I am totally incorrect?
> 
> 
> I'll leave it up to you if you think I am wrong with everything. Because I actually measured 55dB on these compared to 53dB on my FFB1212VHE and we're talking about a fan with double the airflow and 4x the static pressure
> Actually if you think I'm wrong what are you even doing here?
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @dave..
> way in the start when i came to your thread we actualy talked of the jetflo 140's
> and you said to me then and there
> that they are amazing fans both air and sp wise..
> so why dance a different song now????
> 2ndly..youre talking out of your own teeth saying a 140mm fan as intake is crap..
> your basickly then spitting in the face of a lot of case manufacturers dude..
> most of phanteks (example) cases have their 140mm fans included..
> im yet to see a negative impact on temps on my own setup as
> my bottom/side *2 /rear /front in 5.25bay
> and center fan on my.phtc14pe..are all 140mm fans...
> and ive shown countless temp readings were ever i go on my setups temps...
> so dont blow the whistle so quickly bro
> 
> heck if i was smarter 3years ago..i wouldve baught ten times as many of the same fans i still have..cause theyve serve me and my pc in turn..pretty darn good...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jetflo 120, not 140.
> Does it mean case manufacturers are right? No. You are just being foolish.
Click to expand...

Sound level was not mentioned in my response , however they sound nowhere near 55 dB. They run 39-45dB secondly you are being puerile . I said they are effective and have good SP. Both are true.

The fact that you know of , or have a different, faster, higher sp, etc has nothing to do with my statements and findings.

See In the outside world, not every single aspect is automatically compared to a Delta product. They also make a fan that has 30mmH2O, why not compare everything else to that?

Cooler Master made a product...it performs nicely...the fans work as advertised...the end.

Quote:


> Actually if you think I'm wrong what are you even doing here?


Wow, really? I invite you to take a minute to think about that sentence. So don't visit, add to, or come to this forum unless one agrees with you?

I think that about sums it up.


----------



## doyll

@ Dave
What is your test system and equipment are you using to collect data for sound level, static pressure and airflow?


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> http://www.bequiet.com/en/cpucooler
> 
> for 140mm fans..look at
> http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=84&lng=en


Thanks for info, yes already seen these

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Unfortunately I do have them and they are rather extremely noisy and have quite low SP.
> But the "SP140" is just garbage. The new line of fans from corsair are just crap.Thanks, but I dont mean SP140 just the Akasa 140 viper and Areacool DS 140
> 
> Because marketing, man. Consumers are the biggest fools and hardware companies such as corsair is often a big cheat (If you can sense me pun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). Why do you think M$ got away with making the same damn OS for so many years and consumers just keep sticking with it
> What you're paying for on a corsair is the badge, that's all there is to it. Reminds me of which ..


I understand marketing,and I am far from naive ,your comments just want to make me investigate more and find out more facts and reviews and continue to listen to debate on fans, I appreciate any and all opinions.
There is marketing and there is just plain lies, I do have my doubts that any company can make too big a lie about specs,or I would have thought they would have law suits for false advertising ? I would hope so anyway.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Sound level was not mentioned in my response , however they sound nowhere near 55 dB. They run 39-45dB secondly you are being puerile . I said they are effective and have good SP. Both are true.
> The fact that you know of , or have a different, faster, higher sp, etc has nothing to do with my statements and findings.
> See In the outside world, not every single aspect is automatically compared to a Delta product. They also make a fan that has 30mmH2O, why not compare everything else to that?
> Cooler Master made a product...it performs nicely...the fans work as advertised...the end.
> 
> Wow, really? I invite you to take a minute to think about that sentence. So don't visit, add to, or come to this forum unless one agrees with you?
> 
> I think that about sums it up.


I also should say absolute performance does not mean everything to me, I have 1 i74790K and a R9 290 cooled by a RX360 and a RX240 or a EX280, so over kill anyway and noise is an issue,I don't want to hear fan's too loud, they just have to do there job, also I don't care for any over clocking of either CPU or GPU !!l ol yip I don't need to ! I just want quiet and to run stock clocks, aesthetics has some importance ( though I can in some cases get out a spray can)

I do however want to be able to have the ability to be able to over clock CPU and GPU and even think ahead for a second R9 290 possibly ,or just perhaps a faster R10 400 or GTX 1190ii, lol







when the next generation of future cards are around








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @ Dave
> What is your test system and equipment are you using to collect data for sound level, static pressure and airflow?


I am now going to hook my Lamptron FC5 V3 up to my old PC I'm still using for now, and run my SP120's and my 750D case fans and my Areocool DS 140 and see how they run, sound and compare .

I'm in no hurry to buy my fans, it can wait a couple of months if i want, I still need GPU ,PSU,and SSD's yet, so I will follow this,discuss and watch all info I can.
Unfortunately I have bought a whole bunch of those 140mm anodized red spider fan rings from Frozen, so would like to use them, if they do not add too much noise at moderate to low fan speeds, as I have herd one dude say they make lots of noise, if they do I can always try to dampen it by spraying them with clear rubber or hung them on my girlfriends wall lol, she wants them


----------



## chrisjames61

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Thermalright Macho Rev. A comes witjh a very good fan. The TY-140 are as good as NF-A14 & NF-A15 fans.


We are talking about Asian companies here. Specifically Chinese. Of course things are either going to be similar or downright 100% knock offs of a successful design.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrisjames61*
> 
> We are talking about Asian companies here. Specifically Chinese. Of course things are either going to be similar or downright 100% knock offs of a successful design.


And your point is ???


----------



## chrisjames61

If I need to tell you it won't do any good.


----------



## Red1776

Like I said

Quote: DaveLT


> *Actually if you think I'm wrong what are you even doing here?*


 This about says everything anyone needs to know about your thread.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Like I said
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> *Actually if you think I'm wrong what are you even doing here?*
> 
> 
> 
> This about says everything anyone needs to know about your thread.
Click to expand...

Sure does.








There are right ways, wrong ways and Dave's ways.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @ Dave
> What is your test system and equipment are you using to collect data for sound level, static pressure and airflow?


Uni-T UT351 and UT361.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Uni-T UT351 and UT361.


They give us the dBA and airflow measurements.

. You said
_"I'll leave it up to you if you think I am wrong with everything. Because I actually measured 55dB on these compare_d to 53dB on my FFB1212VHE and we're talking about a fan with double the airflow and 4x the static pressure"
How are you measuring the static pressure to know it's 4x as much?
What do each flow at 1.0mm H2O?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

only thing left to do now dave is please make a real live youtube clip of all your tests..prove your theories...

and be more polite to all of us..you cant keep telling us to leave just because
you feel like it..

we all want hardcore proof from you


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> They give us the dBA and airflow measurements.
> 
> . You said
> _"I'll leave it up to you if you think I am wrong with everything. Because I actually measured 55dB on these compare_d to 53dB on my FFB1212VHE and we're talking about a fan with double the airflow and 4x the static pressure"
> How are you measuring the static pressure to know it's 4x as much?
> What do each flow at 1.0mm H2O?


It's on paper bro. Do I need to measure it what for?

SP is quite obvious once you have a yardstick, like for example my jetflo 120 I know the SP on that thing and I can measure the airflow coming out of a rad and then estimate how much SP it has by using basic maths.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It's on paper bro. Do I need to measure it what for?
> 
> SP is quite obvious once you have a yardstick, like for example my jetflo 120 I know the SP on that thing and I can measure the airflow coming out of a rad and then estimate how much SP it has by using basic maths.


Only thing obvious is the noise in our ears.
Airflow and static pressure are far from obvious .. as you are well know. Asstimating isn't very scientific or accurate.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Which bearings would be the best for a fan facing upward?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Which bearings would be the best for a fan facing upward?


2BB bearings of course for any orientation.


----------



## bond32

You guys should really chill out. This is a forum where people express opinions. You're in a thread where Dave is expressing his opinion. You don't have to argue with him...


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Unfortunately thats part of being in any thread on any forum..to ???? Each other..rise to the occation..and yes..help each other..
But how do you do that when the king doesnt seem like he wants to..telling us all the time to buzz off..
Heres my proof


----------



## X-PREDATOR




----------



## X-PREDATOR




----------



## X-PREDATOR

This is done just 5min ago..
Fans in use:
Front..1*200mm stock 230mm alpine(aerocool)
1*140mm in 5.25 bays turbo thermalright
side panel tt silent X 140mm *2
Bottom
1*140mm tt silentX
1*30mm rad +120mm cm xtra flo
1*30mm rad push pull 120mm cm xtraflo
exhuast mounted onto the pcie slots
(gpu aio mod antec920block)

Rear exhuast 1*140mm tt silent X @100%
Top 1*200mm cm megaflo black exhuast @100% rpm

rest of the fans are kept at 25% -40% speed ranging from 600rpm to 1400rpm.


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> 2BB bearings of course for any orientation.


Ball Bearings tend to be the nosiest though, no? But that's definitely my biggest option.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Only thing obvious is the noise in our ears.
> Airflow and static pressure are far from obvious .. as you are well know. Asstimating isn't very scientific or accurate.


Static pressure is derived from the difference between the air flow during a measured obstruction, and unobstructed air flow. It takes all three numbers to figure Static pressure.
Estimating isn't very scientific or accurate, but perfection is often not worth the effort.
Using touch to feel flow though the cooler, and seeing good cooling performance, is good enough for most of us.
That being said, "4 times the static pressure" is a very bold clame to make with no solid ground to stand on.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It's on paper bro. Do I need to measure it what for?
> SP is quite obvious once you have a yardstick, like for example my jetflo 120 I know the SP on that thing and I can measure the airflow coming out of a rad and then estimate how much SP it has by using basic maths.


For credibility. If it is so easy, what is the problem with just showing us this basic math proving that fan has 4 times the static pressure.
If you have accurate flow measurements, a known measured flow obstruction, and the math is sound, it is not an estimate, you're dead on.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Ball Bearings tend to be the nosiest though, no? But that's definitely my biggest option.


Each type of bearing has its good points and bad points.
For a fan facing upward, avoid sleeve bearings. Sleeve bearings wear a lot faster when mounted in any orientation other than vertical.

Ball Bearings are very free flowing, efficient, quiet (if maintained well), endure hot temps better, and are the preferred bearing for high performance and high out-putt fans.

Rifle bearings are sleeves that have a spiral groove in the contact surface that pumps lubricating fluid from a reservoir. Fluid Dynamic Bearings, and Hydro Dynamic Bearings are similar, and all share a high degree of the ball bearings good points, including life span.

A Magnetic bearing fan's shaft floats in a magnetic field. This seems like it would be the perfect bearing, but this fan's Achilles Hill is the low CFM out-putt that its design limitations confine it to.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Static pressure is derived from the difference between the air flow during a measured obstruction, and unobstructed air flow.
> Estimating isn't very scientific or accurate, but perfection is often not worth the effort.
> Using touch to feel flow though the cooler, and seeing good cooling performance, is good enough for most of us.
> That being said, "4 times the static pressure" is a very bold clam to make with no solid ground to stand on.


...Yep...







well said


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Ball Bearings tend to be the nosiest though, no? But that's definitely my biggest option.


Noisiest, not really. I tend to be unable to hear 2BB bearings.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Static pressure is derived from the difference between the air flow during a measured obstruction, and unobstructed air flow. It takes all three numbers to figure Static pressure.
> Estimating isn't very scientific or accurate, but perfection is often not worth the effort.
> Using touch to feel flow though the cooler, and seeing good cooling performance, is good enough for most of us.
> That being said, "4 times the static pressure" is a very bold clame to make with no solid ground to stand on.
> For credibility. If it is so easy, what is the problem with just showing us this basic math proving that fan has 4 times the static pressure.
> If you have accurate flow measurements, a known measured flow obstruction, and the math is sound, it is not an estimate, you're dead on.


It's already on paper. Unless you suggest delta is lying about their specs?
I know a jetflo 120 to be about 3mm h2o on paper. the flow obstruction on my rad collapses the airflow to about half meaning it's about 1.5mmH2O.
Does the math need to be anymore complicated? Come on.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Noisiest, not really. I tend to be unable to hear 2BB bearings.
> 
> It's already on paper. Unless you suggest delta is lying about their specs?
> I know a jetflo 120 to be about 3mm h2o on paper. the flow obstruction on my rad collapses the airflow to about half meaning it's about 1.5mmH2O.
> Does the math need to be anymore complicated? Come on.


I think that's a half baked answer, a poor effort.
I'm not trying to insult you, I'm trying to help, so please listen with an open mind.
2.72 mmH2O is at NO (zero) air flow. Your rad collapsing the airflow half this much has no bearing on this discussion. This statement shows that you do not understand how this measurement was made. Water is the measured flow obstruction. (see the URL just below)
Also, Your communication skills make you appear un-reputable.
http://www.solutionsforair.com/dayton_content/pdfs/staticpressure.pdf
I found your 4 times number to be correct, this is an unarguable way to answer.

FFB1212VHE
http://datasheet.octopart.com/FFB1212VHE-F00-Delta-Product-Groups-datasheet-17722952.pdf
11.3 (9.13 min) mm h2o
.445 (.36 min) inch h2o

jetflo 120
http://www.hitechlegion.com/reviews/cooling/heatsinks/37473-cm-jetflo-120?showall=&start=1
2.72 mmH2O

This took very little effort to look up. Show sources
We all teach each other.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

has any 1 seen this
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9Xg25HC3I

not the best option for cooling but might be a good affordable option for a side/bottom/top or rear
what do you guys think?


----------



## Red1776

in The spirit of what Luke has been saying, we have a winner with the jet flo's

120mm & 140mm. well over 100 CFM, but more importantly the ability to move through radiator is incredible.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

im not disagreing..each to its own
ive been merely ????ning that results as the most reviews and trusted builders ive seen live all state otherwise?
everyone of them are saying what im saying:
Great fan:yes
good airflo:yes
good sp : yes but only as a case fan not for radiators or heatsinks and loses alot of air due too the open blade design.and round frame.same as the sp fans..if the blades were a bit wider then it would be even closer to 100%..this is the only benefit to the sp120 design..the blades..
noise ratio: gets loud above 1200rpm..

so im not saying its total crap..just not the be all and end all..same with deltas..

im truly sorry if it has seemed im undermining or trolling..but im not
i just cant accept that there "can only be 1"
solution to everything..
sorry..not my nature..


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Static pressure is derived from the difference between the air flow during a measured obstruction, and unobstructed air flow. It takes all three numbers to figure Static pressure.
> Estimating isn't very scientific or accurate, but perfection is often not worth the effort.
> Using touch to feel flow though the cooler, and seeing good cooling performance, is good enough for most of us.
> That being said, "4 times the static pressure" is a very bold clame to make with no solid ground to stand on.
> 
> For credibility. If it is so easy, what is the problem with just showing us this basic math proving that fan has 4 times the static pressure.
> If you have accurate flow measurements, a known measured flow obstruction, and the math is sound, it is not an estimate, you're dead on.


The problem is resistance changes as air speed / airflow changes. That is why it needs to be measured, not calculated.

I'm working on a test station with manometer, anemometer, and dBA. Hopefully it wil work as planned.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

doyll sorry to ask you..but whats your thaughts on this

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9Xg25HC3I


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> doyll sorry to ask you..but whats your thaughts on this
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9Xg25HC3I


It was a total waste of time .. even skipping through it.








No testing, nothing of interest at all.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

i wasnt referring to the review ...more the fan itself..would this be ok for top mounted exhaust fans ?
my choices are very limited in my region...im going to change the top panel of my case..removing the air vents and replacing with custom perspex panel...hopefully not goin to ruin the case...but yeah


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> in The spirit of what Luke has been saying, we have a winner with the jet flo's
> 120mm & 140mm. well over 100 CFM, but more importantly the ability to move through radiator is incredible.


the FFB1212VHE -- 142CFM @ 3200 RPM and a static pressure of 11.3mm h2o.
the jetflo -- 95CFM @ 2000 RPM and a static pressure of 2.72mm h2o.

The FFB1212VHE has over four times the static pressure that the jetflo 120 has,
it out performs the jetflo hands down.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> in The spirit of what Luke has been saying, we have a winner with the jet Flo's
> 120mm & 140mm. well over 100 CFM, but more importantly the ability to move through radiator is incredible.
> 
> 
> 
> the FFB1212VHE -- 142CFM @ 3200 RPM and a static pressure of 11.3mm h2o.
> the jetflo
> 
> 95CFM @ 2000 RPM and a static pressure of 2.72mm h2o.
> 
> The FFB1212VHE has over four times the static pressure that the jetflo 120 has,
> it out performs the jetflo hands down.
Click to expand...

okay....but so not the point. I was talking about the Jet flo...not comparing to the FFB1212VHE in anyway. I was speaking of one fan and what i thought about it. for that matter I know of a Delta that has has 50mmH2O...why not bring that into the mix as well. ?

I said the Jet Flo is a great fan that moves a lot of heat and looks good doing it. just because that's true does not mean that I am saying the FFB1212VHE does not, or is not a great fan.

The Ferrari Enzo goes four times as fast as the Pruis, while true, hardly relevant. Not everyone wants to use Deltas and or needs "four time the SP". The 4 x SP does not make things four times cooler. I offered an effective attractive, alternative that works well, and keep getting responses with about the same mentality of "my Dad can beat up Your Dad"

Like your Deltas?...good for you.

I foolishly thought this forum was started as a place to share ideas, findings, and experiences. I can see now that this is not the case and it is a place to come to be ambushed by one upsmanship.

Worry not, I shall refrain from participating in your Delta thread hence forth.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> okay....but so not the point. I was talking about the Jet flo...not comparing to the FFB1212VHE in anyway. I was speaking of one fan and what i thought about it. for that matter I know of a Delta that has has 50mmH2O...why not bring that into the mix as well. ?
> I said the Jet Flo is a great fan that moves a lot of heat and looks good doing it. just because that's true does not mean that I am saying the FFB1212VHE does not, or is not a great fan.
> The Ferrari Enzo goes four times as fast as the Pruis, while true, hardly relevant. Not everyone wants to use Deltas and or needs "four time the SP". The 4 x SP does not make things four times cooler. I offered an effective attractive, alternative that works well, and keep getting responses with about the same mentality of "my Dad can beat up Your Dad"
> Like your Deltas?...good for you.
> I foolishly thought this forum was started as a place to share ideas, findings, and experiences. I can see now that this is not the case and it is a place to come to be ambushed by one upsmanship.
> Worry not, I shall refrain from participating in your Delta thread hence forth.


I thought you misunderstood the info I gave.
I too use many different types of fans.
I have no hate for the jetflow120, and I have never said it was a bad fan or I would not use it.
It's true that I am partial to the 38 x 120mm deltas for CPU coolers, but they have their disadvantages also.
The FFB1212VHE its self, is not a fan I that would use. I have talked of this in earlier post.
It may have over four times the static pressure of most fans, but it has a massive amp draw and is VERY loud as it does so.
You have misunderstood my intentions.
And I doubt my Dad could beat up Your Dad, mine can barely walk anymore.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> okay....but so not the point. I was talking about the Jet flo...not comparing to the FFB1212VHE in anyway. I was speaking of one fan and what i thought about it. for that matter I know of a Delta that has has 50mmH2O...why not bring that into the mix as well. ?
> I said the Jet Flo is a great fan that moves a lot of heat and looks good doing it. just because that's true does not mean that I am saying the FFB1212VHE does not, or is not a great fan.
> The Ferrari Enzo goes four times as fast as the Pruis, while true, hardly relevant. Not everyone wants to use Deltas and or needs "four time the SP". The 4 x SP does not make things four times cooler. I offered an effective attractive, alternative that works well, and keep getting responses with about the same mentality of "my Dad can beat up Your Dad"
> Like your Deltas?...good for you.
> I foolishly thought this forum was started as a place to share ideas, findings, and experiences. I can see now that this is not the case and it is a place to come to be ambushed by one upsmanship.
> Worry not, I shall refrain from participating in your Delta thread hence forth.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you misunderstood the info I gave.
> I too use many different types of fans.
> I have no hate for the jetflow120, and I have never said it was a bad fan or I would not use it.
> It's true that I am partial to the 38 x 120mm deltas for CPU coolers, but they have their disadvantages also.
> The FFB1212VHE its self, is not a fan I that would use. I have talked of this in earlier post.
> It may have over four times the static pressure of most fans, but it has a massive amp draw and is VERY loud as it does so.
> You have misunderstood my intentions.
> And I doubt my Dad could beat up Your Dad, mine can barely walk anymore.
Click to expand...

You have misunderstood my intentions.
And I doubt my Dad could beat up Your Dad, mine can barely walk anymore.

ROFL, yeah that would be a ugly, slow match.

The rest was not aimed at you. I first saw this forum a chance to share fan experiences and results with others.

as it turns out, just about every time I come on in, I am asked to disbelieve my own experiences. The fact that there is a fan that will suck a golf ball through a garden hose is irrelevant.

Just tired of ole Dave one upping, and telling me something is not so while I have a test setup doing it right in front of me...multiple times. Not a forum to inform and share ideas, that's for sure.

My apologies for hitting you in the crossfire.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> You have misunderstood my intentions.
> 
> And I doubt my Dad could beat up Your Dad, mine can barely walk anymore.
> 
> ROFL, yeah that would be a ugly, slow match.
> The rest was not aimed at you. I first saw this forum a chance to share fan experiences and results with others.
> as it turns out, just about every time I come on in, I am asked to disbelieve my own experiences. The fact that there is a fan that will suck a golf ball through a garden hose is irrelevant.
> Just tired of ole Dave one upping, and telling me something is not so while I have a test setup doing it right in front of me...multiple times. Not a forum to inform and share ideas, that's for sure.
> My apologies for hitting you in the crossfire.


No problem.
Learn to gracefully handle people like Dave, and the world is your oyster.
We all take hits from him, its part of the fun.
If it's starting to get to you , take a brake. But never let any one person control you by chasing you away.

Never let anyone see you sweat, write with a smile on your face.

I know, I know,







, or is it








Anyway, back to fans.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> You have misunderstood my intentions.
> 
> And I doubt my Dad could beat up Your Dad, mine can barely walk anymore.
> 
> ROFL, yeah that would be a ugly, slow match.
> The rest was not aimed at you. I first saw this forum a chance to share fan experiences and results with others.
> as it turns out, just about every time I come on in, I am asked to disbelieve my own experiences. The fact that there is a fan that will suck a golf ball through a garden hose is irrelevant.
> Just tired of ole Dave one upping, and telling me something is not so while I have a test setup doing it right in front of me...multiple times. Not a forum to inform and share ideas, that's for sure.
> My apologies for hitting you in the crossfire.
> 
> 
> 
> No problem.
> Learn to gracefully handle people like Dave, and the world is your oyster.
> We all take hits from him, its part of the fun.
> If it's starting to get to you , take a brake. But never let any one person control you by chasing you away.
> 
> Never let anyone see you sweat, write with a smile on your face.
> 
> I know, I know,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , or is it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, back to fans.
Click to expand...

 Hehe,

The best advice in a long time Luke









....ahem....my tests are accurate Dave


----------



## Bertovzki

Well I checked out my FC5 V3 and fans today for first time, just hooked them up to my old rig im on now.

A few pages back when I first entered this thread I asked about the Areocool DS 140 and the Akasa viper 140.
I tested my Aerocool DS140 both for air flow and very basic SP performance just by feel on my face and hands, and I was impressed ,it was definitely better than my SP120 QE at the same rpm and much better at 1500 rpm, both at SP and AP, just by basic feel DS much more flow !
So after being told I should just forget about the Aerocool DS 140 as it is rubbish, I think it is very good,for my needs anyway,but still undecided on that or Akasa Viper,I'm not interested in any other fan for aesthetic reasons only I think most other fans just plain or even ugly even if they perform better,they would have to be very good.

I have found one fan with great static pressure


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## X-PREDATOR

omg..
now lets take that and cram it into a prodigy...
hahaha..awsome joke dude


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Well I checked out my FC5 V3 and fans today for first time, just hooked them up to my old rig im on now.
> 
> A few pages back when I first entered this thread I asked about the Areocool DS 140 and the Akasa viper 140.
> I tested my Aerocool DS140 both for air flow and very basic SP performance just by feel on my face and hands, and I was impressed ,it was definitely better than my SP120 QE at the same rpm and much better at 1500 rpm, both at SP and AP, just by basic feel DS much more flow !
> So after being told I should just forget about the Aerocool DS 140 as it is rubbish, I think it is very good,for my needs anyway,but still undecided on that or Akasa Viper,I'm not interested in any other fan for aesthetic reasons only I think most other fans just plain or even ugly even if they perform better,they would have to be very good.
> 
> I have found one fan with great static pressure
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


it's not a Delta.... it's no good.


----------



## bond32

Need to clean the crap up in this thread. It was once a load of good info...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> the FFB1212VHE -- 142CFM @ 3200 RPM and a static pressure of 11.3mm h2o.
> the jetflo -- 95CFM @ 2000 RPM and a static pressure of 2.72mm h2o.
> 
> The FFB1212VHE has over four times the static pressure that the jetflo 120 has,
> it out performs the jetflo hands down.


152CFM







and as far as I know the Jetflo 140s that are only found on Neptons (Of course I have them) are noisier than the ffb1212vhe I have. Or even the AFB1212SH (Of course, it's only 46.5dB on paper) ...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Need to clean the crap up in this thread. It was once a load of good info...


Nothing has changed .. it has always been a load of,.....


----------



## nadir

Hello,

I'd need advice on what fan(s) are recommended in a CM 690 III case.
Please note that I'm going to install a noctua NH-D15 cpu cooler.

Do you recommend to install fan(s) on top? If yes how many and which ones?
Should i replace rear and front fan(s)? if so with which ones?

Thank you very much!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nadir*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I'd need advice on what fan(s) are recommended in a CM 690 III case.
> Please note that I'm going to install a noctua NH-D15 cpu cooler.
> 
> Do you recommend to install fan(s) on top? If yes how many and which ones?
> Should i replace rear and front fan(s)? if so with which ones?
> 
> Thank you very much!


Yes of course, in intake and probably 1 filtered swiftech helix above the VRM as intake and 1 more in front of it if you can't find space in the 5-1/4" drive bays
As for rear and front yes please do change, rear fans are also same as above (swiftech helix) and front as well.


----------



## nadir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yes of course, in intake and probably 1 filtered swiftech helix above the VRM as intake and 1 more in front of it if you can't find space in the 5-1/4" drive bays
> As for rear and front yes please do change, rear fans are also same as above (swiftech helix) and front as well.


Thank you Dave (very quick answer)!

Just to avoid any confusion I suppose that with "intake" you mean fresh air from outside coming inside the case and, vice versa, with "exhaust" you mean hot air from inside going outside.
So is this design wrong: 
and the only exhaust I need is in the rear?

I suppose you are talking about 120mm fan(s). You said CM JetFlo is good fan and I like it more than swiftech helix. Can I use JetFlow fan(s) instead?

Someone suggested to specify everything I'm going to put inside the case (thank you X-PREDATOR):

CPU 4970k
MoBo Asus MAXIMUS VII HERO
RAM Corsair 2xCML4GX3M1X1600C7
Power Supply XFX XTR, 650W
SSD Plextor m6e M.2 2280 256GB
CPU Cooler Noctua NH-D15
Case CM690III
HD Seagate Barracuda 1TB ST1000DM003
GPU GTX 970 (not sure about the brand yet)


----------



## bond32

You should really make all fans except the rear fan all intake. Typically it provides the best cooling. The JetFlow is a great fan but id recommend a pwm splitter of some kind to make sure you control it, same with any PWM fan. The Swiftech Helix is a great fan too for the price... Yes performance wise it doesn't come quite to the other $20 fans, but it's also half their price.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

my pleasure dude..makes it easier to then help another brother out..
knowing the insides provides crucial info to know how hot the config might be or not.
nice setup goin on there...
its a 50/50 for each config..
but their all right...all intake bar the rear as exhaust..top can also be exhaust..itll help xpell the heat in that region quicker..

for pwm theres plenty options

http://www.google.com/m?q=deepcool+pwm+fan+hub&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new

phanteks pwm fan hub - Google Search

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5503/nzxt-grid-10-port-fan-hub-review/index2.html

and many more out there..ultimately..a fancontroller is also good idea if your into the whole manual control thing..


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> my pleasure dude..makes it easier to then help another brother out..
> knowing the insides provides crucial info to know how hot the config might be or not.
> nice setup goin on there...
> its a 50/50 for each config..
> but their all right...all intake bar the rear as exhaust..top can also be exhaust..itll help xpell the heat in that region quicker..
> 
> for pwm theres plenty options
> 
> http://www.google.com/m?q=deepcool+pwm+fan+hub&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new
> 
> phanteks pwm fan hub - Google Search
> 
> http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5503/nzxt-grid-10-port-fan-hub-review/index2.html
> 
> and many more out there..ultimately..a fancontroller is also good idea if your into the whole manual control thing..


Honestly do not recommend either of those. While I have personally not tried the deepcool, the phanteks will not do what you want it to do. And I have two of them... It's rather complicated why it doesn't work but has to do with the load/current draw (im no electrical engineer)...

To my knowledge, aside from building it yourself there isn't a good pwm controller that can control voltage fans.

And by the way that deepcool is only FOR pwm fans, it's nothing more than a 4 way splitter. The phanteks fan hub is designed to take a pwm signal and control voltage only controlled fans (3 pin). It doesn't work, just trust me on that.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ive got that deepcool..it works for 3 & 4pin..
but if using 4pin..then all 4 are gonna have to be 4pin..same with 3pin..
i mod mine so it draws 12v from psu directly and the rpm/pwm from the cpu header..got 3 identical fans on it..ive got no issues..
i tried with mixed fans but ddnt work out so good..

phanteks has a newer hub available from what ive heard that gets true pwm and sends it out to either 3/4pin fans..your gonna have to ask sm1 else about your issue there..might be a bad hub/ a dud?


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> ive got that deepcool..it works for 3 & 4pin..
> but if using 4pin..then all 4 are gonna have to be 4pin..same with 3pin..
> i mod mine so it draws 12v from psu directly and the rpm/pwm from the cpu header..got 3 identical fans on it..ive got no issues..
> i tried with mixed fans but ddnt work out so good..
> 
> phanteks has a newer hub available from what ive heard that gets true pwm and sends it out to either 3/4pin fans..your gonna have to ask sm1 else about your issue there..might be a bad hub/ a dud?


Of course that hub will work for 4 pin fans... If you supply 12 volts to 3 pin fans it does nothing. It's just a splitter.

And yes I have 2 of the new style fan hubs... I've tried a variety of fans and believe me it doesn't work. The controllable range for my ap-15's is 1500-1850 rpm then to 0 using a pwm only signal from the board. It's nothing more than a hub at this point which is no different than the nzxt grid.

The phanteks hub has been discussed a lot. I've even offered to send mine to anyone who has electrical knowledge to test it but no one seems to care.


----------



## Red1776

The best fan on the market

CFM: 56-113

RPM: 32-55 WPM

Static Pressure: 12.3mm H2O

Noise Level: 16dB

Life expectancy: 78.8 Years

Bearing Type: radiocarpal *joint*


----------



## Dyaems

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> The best fan on the market
> 
> CFM: 56-113
> RPM: 32-55 WPM
> Static Pressure: 12.3mm H2O
> Noise Level: 16dB
> Life expectancy: 78.8 Years
> Bearing Type: radiocarpal *joint*


You can even put perfume on it!


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dyaems*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> The best fan on the market
> 
> CFM: 56-113
> RPM: 32-55 WPM
> Static Pressure: 12.3mm H2O
> Noise Level: 16dB
> Life expectancy: 78.8 Years
> Bearing Type: radiocarpal *joint*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can even put perfume on it!
Click to expand...

Now you are a thinker ahead of his/her time


----------



## mus1mus

Here the fans: (not mine)









Silent Fan:

Specs: tba


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Power Fan:
Specs: tba


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Perfect Fans:

Specs: tba


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Here the fans: (not mine)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Silent Fan:
> 
> Specs: tba
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Power Fan:
> Specs: tba
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect Fans:
> 
> Specs: tba
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


okay fine....waving the white flag.







very good.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nadir*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yes of course, in intake and probably 1 filtered swiftech helix above the VRM as intake and 1 more in front of it if you can't find space in the 5-1/4" drive bays
> As for rear and front yes please do change, rear fans are also same as above (swiftech helix) and front as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dave (very quick answer)!
> 
> Just to avoid any confusion I suppose that with "intake" you mean fresh air from outside coming inside the case and, vice versa, with "exhaust" you mean hot air from inside going outside.
> So is this design wrong:
> and the only exhaust I need is in the rear?
> 
> I suppose you are talking about 120mm fan(s). You said CM JetFlo is good fan and I like it more than swiftech helix. Can I use JetFlow fan(s) instead?
> 
> Someone suggested to specify everything I'm going to put inside the case (thank you X-PREDATOR):
> 
> CPU 4970k
> MoBo Asrock Asus MAXIMUS VII HERO
> RAM Corsair 2xCML4GX3M1X1600C7
> Power Supply XFX XTR, 650W
> SSD Plextor m6e M.2 2280 256GB
> CPU Cooler Noctua NH-D15
> Case CM690III
> HD Seagate Barracuda 1TB ST1000DM003
> GPU GTX 970 (not sure about the brand yet)
Click to expand...

Your case has:
1 x 200mm/180mm or 2 x 140mm/120mm front fan mounts (200mm fan included),
1 x 120mm rear fan mount (fan included),
1 x 200mm or 2 x 140mm/120mm roof fan mounts,
1 x 200mm/180mm or 2 x 120mm left side fan mounts,
1 x 120mm bottom fan mount,
1 x 120mm internal HDD cage mount (fans not included)
You want as much exhaust vent area as intake fan area. If you do not the fans are trying to push air out of less space than they are bring air in through .. and only as much air as is exhausted from case can be enter case.
You may find link in sig for case airflow helpful.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

front ..bottom..side-all intake
top ...rear...-all exahaust full blast on these two..will get the hot air out the case quicker..


----------



## doyll

Hot air cannot leave case any faster than cool air is coming into case. It's a simple matter of displacement. Air coming in must have same amount going out .. air going out must have same amount coming in.


----------



## Curleyyy

What about if you have 4+ intakes and 1 exhaust. The 4+ intakes would create more air pressure forcing the hot air out faster, no?


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> What about if you have 4+ intakes and 1 exhaust. The 4+ intakes would create more air pressure forcing the hot air out faster, no?


Thats one way of setting it up. i prefer a negative flow myself.


----------



## doyll

2x intakes will balance to 1x exhaust, but not 4x intakes to 1x exhaust. The intakes an only build so much pressure regardless of the number used. We need similar exhaust vent area to intake area. This does not mean the same number of exhaust fans because the good intake fans will push air out exhaust vents same as good fans on coolers and radiators do not need a fan on back of cooler pulling air out.
Think of case as a cooler 140x140x80mm cooler fin pack.

A good 140mm fan pushes air though cooler and give 60c CPU temp.
Add a fan on back of cooler and the temp may go down to 59c, but no lower.
But cover up 3/4 of the back of cooler and CPU temp goes up. We still have the same fan on front of cooler but the back cannot flow all the air out 1/4 the area. And if we put super macho 70mm 45000rpm fan pulling as hard as it can the temp may drop a little, but will still be higher than it was with nothing on the back of cooler.


----------



## ace101

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sniping*
> 
> yay I got my fans today.
> 
> the sound of airflow rings through my room


What brand is this?


----------



## nadir

Thank you all for the hints.

IMO Doyll is "quite" right. If I close every hole with an intake fan the air will find another "escape" way and it could generate some additional noise.
Maybe I can leave the bottom hole. The air excess will flow out using that hole.

The others are right on the importance of having intake fan(s) cooling the VRM. So I'll install at least one intake in the top of the case.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 2x intakes will balance to 1x exhaust, but not 4x intakes to 1x exhaust. The intakes an only build so much pressure regardless of the number used. We need similar exhaust vent area to intake area. This does not mean the same number of exhaust fans because the good intake fans will push air out exhaust vents same as good fans on coolers and radiators do not need a fan on back of cooler pulling air out.
> Think of case as a cooler 140x140x80mm cooler fin pack.
> 
> A good 140mm fan pushes air though cooler and give 60c CPU temp.
> Add a fan on back of cooler and the temp may go down to 59c, but no lower.
> But cover up 3/4 of the back of cooler and CPU temp goes up. We still have the same fan on front of cooler but the back cannot flow all the air out 1/4 the area. And if we put super macho 70mm 45000rpm fan pulling as hard as it can the temp may drop a little, but will still be higher than it was with nothing on the back of cooler.


like you said, figuring this out involves a lot more than just adding up the CFM of the fans involved. Filters, static pressure, component fans/cooling.

I placed sensors at various places around my case when constructing my neg flow plan and got the case temp to within 2 degrees of ambient.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> like you said, figuring this out involves a lot more than just adding up the CFM of the fans involved. Filters, static pressure, component fans/cooling.
> I placed sensors at various places around my case when constructing my neg flow plan and got the case temp to within 2 degrees of ambient.


Have a basic understanding of how air flows and what affects it helps, but it still requires testing and usually some trial & error positioning of fans to get the best airflow / case & cooler intakes within a couple degrees of room.








That is why the link is in my sig that I refer people to all the time.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ace101*
> 
> What brand is this?


delta fans for Macs


----------



## Curleyyy

Decided to swap my fans around, and put my two Jetflo 120 mm's in the front. I'll be modding the case to add in a third one sometime soon.
I also swapped my rad fans from pull (fans under rad) to push (fans on top of rad, under case grill)
I then moved the HDD caddy to the middle of the case to make room for airflow and to reduce restriction.

I'm not going to swap the fans back around on the radiator (it actually took 10 minutes to line up the holes) but I feel as if the CPU temps have dropped from 86+ to 70c which is fantastic!!
Doyll your signature threads were a fantastic read, and it's got me thinking on a lot of things.

I'm also thinking about picking up a lamptron fc5 v3 fan controller as described in the third image i'll be modding in two more fans hopefully.
I've also realised that I can't have a push/pull on my rad as the motherboard 8 pin connector is obstructing the path unfortunately, so i might just pick up some thicker delta fans or the likes later on?


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> like you said, figuring this out involves a lot more than just adding up the CFM of the fans involved. Filters, static pressure, component fans/cooling.
> I placed sensors at various places around my case when constructing my neg flow plan and got the case temp to within 2 degrees of ambient.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a basic understanding of how air flows and what affects it helps, but it still requires testing and usually some trial & error positioning of fans to get the best airflow / case & cooler intakes within a couple degrees of room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is why the link is in my sig that I refer people to all the time.
Click to expand...

 I just read that link







In fact I could have written it. I moved, angled, baffled, positioned, and ran smoke through the intakes to watch air movement and took temp readings with remote sensors in three locations in the case for a good long time in many configurations.

I get the feeling you are not a fan of negative flow setups, and that's okay. I will take my 2C above ambient.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

full positive is the same as having full negative..both ways draws in more dust
over time..
theres a dude in my town with a haf X
he does full positive fan config..you can clean his rig today..2days max ..and its a complete dust fairy again..
ive tried both..negative and positive..and im
afraid im agree with Doyll (which never happens)
its better to have a good balance between the amount of intake air and exit..
not all cases are designed the same and more case makers these days are opting for the closed front panel look with those useless tiny side vents which aint nearly enough sometimes for proper airflo
throughout the case..i watched another forum today of case mod .900D..good example of this front panel type..the guy hacked that and mod mesh onto it..

so say a case like 900D as example..
how many intake fans would any of you do vs exhaust?

if it was me..id do same as the guy i watched...mesh the front plate..hook 3 140mm fans front intake
bottom..side..and rear even..depending on the cpu cooler type..then top as main exhaust..
whats your guys thaughts?


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> full positive is the same as having full negative..both ways draws in more dust
> over time..
> theres a dude in my town with a haf X
> he does full positive fan config..you can clean his rig today..2days max ..and its a complete dust fairy again..
> ive tried both..negative and positive..and im
> afraid im agree with Doyll (which never happens)
> its better to have a good balance between the amount of intake air and exit..
> not all cases are designed the same and more case makers these days are opting for the closed front panel look with those useless tiny side vents which aint nearly enough sometimes for proper airflo
> throughout the case..i watched another forum today of case mod .900D..good example of this front panel type..the guy hacked that and mod mesh onto it..
> 
> so say a case like 900D as example..
> how many intake fans would any of you do vs exhaust?
> 
> if it was me..id do same as the guy i watched...mesh the front plate..hook 3 140mm fans front intake
> bottom..side..and rear even..depending on the cpu cooler type..then top as main exhaust..
> whats your guys thaughts?


 well that why I call it flow and not pressure. It depends on the case, how its constructed, modded, air or water.

I think I know what you mean by "full positive" I favor negative flow when applicable. Dust does not bother me, I am perfectly happy to use compressed air more often so not a big deal.

my version of negative flow is merely a bit more outgoing than incoming. (in this case a Cosmos 2)

Not aimed at you X, but I also have three traditional 'no-no's in my setup that I have made work extremely well, unfortunately this forum seems a bit closed minded to new ideas.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> [
> I just read that link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact I could have written it. I moved, angled, baffled, positioned, and ran smoke through the intakes to watch air movement and took temp readings with remote sensors in three locations in the case for a good long time in many configurations.
> I get the feeling you are not a fan of negative flow setups, and that's okay. I will take my 2C above ambient.


The negative / positive is just gobbledegook. How the airflow moves inside the case is the key ..the currents / channels the air flows in / follows through the case. Fact is what goes in must come out / what comes out must go in. I prefer slightly more intake cfm only because intakes with filters keep most of the dust out of case.

Intake fans with decent pressure and airflow often don't need any exhaust fans, but often exhaust fans help create the airflow patterns that work best.


----------



## mfdoom7

is it good idea to but all case fans intake and air moves out from back itself


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> [
> I just read that link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact I could have written it. I moved, angled, baffled, positioned, and ran smoke through the intakes to watch air movement and took temp readings with remote sensors in three locations in the case for a good long time in many configurations.
> I get the feeling you are not a fan of negative flow setups, and that's okay. I will take my 2C above ambient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The negative / positive is just gobbledegook. How the airflow moves inside the case is the key ..the currents / channels the air flows in / follows through the case. Fact is what goes in must come out / what comes out must go in. I prefer slightly more intake cfm only because intakes with filters keep most of the dust out of case.
> 
> Intake fans with decent pressure and airflow often don't need any exhaust fans, but often exhaust fans help create the airflow patterns that work best.
Click to expand...

 Thus the smoke I send thru to see how and where it was moving. The most efficient was to have slightly more exhaust than intake.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@red
well that why I call it flow and
not pressure. It depends on the
case, how its constructed,
modded, air or water.
I think I know what you mean by
"full positive" I favor negative
flow when applicable. Dust does
not bother me, I am perfectly
happy to use compressed air
more often so not a big deal.
my version of negative flow is
merely a bit more outgoing than
incoming. (in this case a Cosmos
2)
Not aimed at you X, but I also
have three traditional 'no-no's in
my setup that I have made work
extremely well, unfortunately this
forum seems a bit closed minded
to new ideas.

that aint me..thankx..im open to most new ideas and ways..im gutting my case this coming weekend..removing the hd cage completely ..then see how it goes with 200mm vs 140mm vs 120mm ..
i dont own a airflo meter ect..but intake air temps and case temps i can do..got myself a ghetto way..Walk in freezer thermometer..been using this a while and its fairly accurate when comparing it to the AC room temp sensor..

ive got 5 intake fans and two out..rear and top..my cases top isnt friendly for intake due to the way its designed..
and theres alot of open spaces for air to go in & out as it pleases..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> What about if you have 4+ intakes and 1 exhaust. The 4+ intakes would create more air pressure forcing the hot air out faster, no?


I would suggest 4 intakes 2 exhaust 1 on the side panel







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfdoom7*
> 
> is it good idea to but all case fans intake and air moves out from back itself


It is not. We aren't using 300CFM fans


----------



## Lancear16

Dave, what fan controller do you recommend? being the Delta fans draw well over what MoBo headers can handle? Going to give deltas a try.


----------



## Lancear16

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lancear16*
> 
> Dave, what fan controller do you recommend? being the Delta fans draw well over what MoBo headers can handle? Going to give deltas a try.


Should have included I need to control 3 deltas @ 1.6A each. Thanks!


----------



## Artistar

Hi Dave, I've got a CM Haf 912 Plus with this configuration: CM 200mm Front fan(900 rpm), Xigamatek 140mm Side fan(530 rpm), Corsair 2 x AF120 High Airflow 120mm(2624 rpm) under my H100i , with 2 x AP15 120mm Gentle Typhoons.(1850 rpm) above.
I'm looking at replacing the original 200mm CM front fan with a pair AP15 120mm Gentle Typhoons (1850 rpm). Sound like a sensible think to you? Since I've put another GTX 780 in to SLI, temperatures have risen quite a bit and I'd just like to have it ALL under control again.


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artistar*
> 
> Hi Dave, I've got a CM Haf 912 Plus with this configuration: CM 200mm Front fan(900 rpm), Xigamatek 140mm Side fan(530 rpm), Corsair 2 x AF120 High Airflow 120mm(2624 rpm) under my H100i , with 2 x AP15 120mm Gentle Typhoons.(1850 rpm) above.
> I'm looking at replacing the original 200mm CM front fan with a pair AP15 120mm Gentle Typhoons (1850 rpm). Sound like a sensible think to you? Since I've put another GTX 780 in to SLI, temperatures have risen quite a bit and I'd just like to have it ALL under control again.


Variety of issues with this man...

For starters, and mind you I haven't observed personally any damage, but most recommend when you run push pull to use the exact same fan. So you should really be using either all AP-15's on your h100i or all corsair fans. Some say it can damage the fan over time and let's be honest, AP-15's should be treated like a baby... They are expensive and hard to find. Personally I would loose the 200mm fan. Haven't really found any 200mm fans that are worth a hoot except maybe the phanteks. So you should order 4 more AP-15's if you can to replace the corsair af120's which, mind you, are pretty poor fans and to replace the 200mm fan.


----------



## Artistar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Variety of issues with this man...
> 
> For starters, and mind you I haven't observed personally any damage, but most recommend when you run push pull to use the exact same fan. So you should really be using either all AP-15's on your h100i or all corsair fans. Some say it can damage the fan over time and let's be honest, AP-15's should be treated like a baby... They are expensive and hard to find. Personally I would loose the 200mm fan. Haven't really found any 200mm fans that are worth a hoot except maybe the phanteks. So you should order 4 more AP-15's if you can to replace the corsair af120's which, mind you, are pretty poor fans and to replace the 200mm fan.


bond32, I understand your concerns and they have been duly noted. However, I'm not entirely sure whether I'd be able to fit a pair of AP-15's where the AF's are due to when I put them in, it was a really tight fit.....(had to 'modify' the fan surround on one of them: ie cut it about!).....bearing in mind, I've got a H100i in a case that they say shouldn't have the AIO inside the case!.....I like to achieve the impossible, well maybe just downright difficult.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

thats the sound of a great mind..thinking outside the "box"
id love to see your setup from a nice side pic and top..ect..care to share?

its still one of the things i believe each case
manufacturer can improve on..except the specialised cases like the caselabs stuff...
even budget cases..should atleast improve
on space and compatability for these AIO coolers...
if i look at my big ass predator..got enough room for most stuff..but poor watercooling support ...

bond32 is spot on...i love 200mm fans..but even full blast they just dont move enough air fast enough...
i recently read and saw a setup on the net..
similar config..
but they put the af120's on the top of the cooler to just aid in pulling the air ...
and they still got great results..so in short
you can put your gentle ty's on the bottom as push and top pull your af120's..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lancear16*
> 
> Should have included I need to control 3 deltas @ 1.6A each. Thanks!


Are they AFC1212DEs or AFB1212SHEs? Note the control you get over voltage is VERY limited. Get a PWM splitter instead?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bond32*
> 
> Variety of issues with this man...
> 
> For starters, and mind you I haven't observed personally any damage, but most recommend when you run push pull to use the exact same fan. So you should really be using either all AP-15's on your h100i or all corsair fans. Some say it can damage the fan over time and let's be honest, AP-15's should be treated like a baby... They are expensive and hard to find. Personally I would loose the 200mm fan. Haven't really found any 200mm fans that are worth a hoot except maybe the phanteks. So you should order 4 more AP-15's if you can to replace the corsair af120's which, mind you, are pretty poor fans and to replace the 200mm fan.


Yea, pretty much.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artistar*
> 
> bond32, I understand your concerns and they have been duly noted. However, I'm not entirely sure whether I'd be able to fit a pair of AP-15's where the AF's are due to when I put them in, it was a really tight fit.....(had to 'modify' the fan surround on one of them: ie cut it about!).....bearing in mind, I've got a H100i in a case that they say shouldn't have the AIO inside the case!.....I like to achieve the impossible, well maybe just downright difficult.


Oh I see. I have never known anyone that could be able to put an AIO in the top of the 912, in fact, only with fans outside the case which means push pull is just downright impossible

I know it, I have one around.


----------



## Curleyyy

How much amperage and wattage do the motherboard headers put out for fans?


----------



## bond32

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> How much amperage and wattage do the motherboard headers put out for fans?


Which board? Most high end claim 35 max I think... 1 or 2 amps is in the manual, I can't remember. I'm using a Asus maximus 6 extreme, always run at least 6 ap-15's on one header. Current setup has 10.


----------



## Curleyyy

Specifically for me the ASUS Maximus V Gene.

I'm looking through the user manual and can't seem to find the information, unless I'm overlooking it, which I probably am.


----------



## Artistar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> thats the sound of a great mind..thinking outside the "box"
> id love to see your setup from a nice side pic and top..ect..care to share?
> 
> its still one of the things i believe each case
> manufacturer can improve on..except the specialised cases like the caselabs stuff...
> even budget cases..should atleast improve
> on space and compatability for these AIO coolers...
> if i look at my big ass predator..got enough room for most stuff..but poor watercooling support ...
> 
> bond32 is spot on...i love 200mm fans..but even full blast they just dont move enough air fast enough...
> i recently read and saw a setup on the net..
> similar config..
> but they put the af120's on the top of the cooler to just aid in pulling the air ...
> and they still got great results..so in short
> you can put your gentle ty's on the bottom as push and top pull your af120's..


X-PREDATOR, I will take a piccie........just for you mind...lol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Are they AFC1212DEs or AFB1212SHEs? Note the control you get over voltage is VERY limited. Get a PWM splitter instead?
> Yea, pre
> Oh I see. I have never known anyone that could be able to put an AIO in the top of the 912, in fact, only with fans outside the case which means push pull is just downright impossible
> 
> I know it, I have one around.


Sorry, my mistake. Made an error on the fan designation: not an AF but they're the SP120L's.......I was typing late last night








I will show you the pic shortly also Dave. When I've taken it........it isn't the prettiest of cases inside......



Here's an earlier photo 'showing' fans with the hose and pump in the Haf 912 Plus. It has been cleaned up since then with the cabling......to some degree..and also the PSU is different and the GPU's too!


----------



## petkovski

This is my current cooling setup. This works well for me for now but dust buildup is a problem. I've decided to place the tower cooler like this so I can cool the chipset, get's extremely hot. Current temps at high loads are: CPU: 34 (OC'd to 4.2), Chipset: 40, GPU: 60 - temps are in celsius. Can you recommend me a better cooling set up, or should I leave it like this? I've tried the standard cooling setup that everyone seems to be using, front and bottom intakes, rear and top exhausts, but temperatures are waay to high like that.

Thanks.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> bond32 is spot on...i love 200mm fans..but even full blast they just dont move enough air fast enough....


200mm fans do move the volume of air that they clamed to.
A 120mm fan has a comparatively strong flow velocity for good reason. With an flow through area of a 200mm circle @ 31400mm², and a 120mm circle @ 11304mm², the 200mm one is almost three times the size. Because of the size difference in the area of flow; a 200mm fan @ 150 CFM fan would have the same flow velocity (.56 meters/sec) as a 120mm fan @ 54 CFM. This feels weak to all of us that are use to 120mm fans. The numbers improve a little on the 200mm fan @ 200 CFM fan, it would have the same air flow velocity (.75 meters/sec) as a 120mm fan @ 72 CFM.

If you what more comparisons, here is a good "Air Flow Conversion Calculator".
http://www.calculatoredge.com/optical%20engg/air%20flow.htm

There is another good way using area comparison.
31400/200 = 11304/x Now cross multiply and divide.
31400X = 11304 x 200, where 11304 x 200 = 2260800
X = 2260800/31400
X = 72 This cross checks to be correct on the "Air Flow Conversion Calculator".


----------



## Lancear16

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Are they AFC1212DEs or AFB1212SHEs? Note the control you get over voltage is VERY limited. Get a PWM splitter instead?


Three - AFB1212SHE-PWM

Would really appreciate some opinions on controllers.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lancear16*
> 
> Three - AFB1212SHE-PWM
> 
> Would really appreciate some opinions on controllers.


Like I said if you're controlling those fans just use a PWM splitter. A voltage fan controller is not worth it as you will not get below much less than 1700rpm.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petkovski*
> 
> This is my current cooling setup. This works well for me for now but dust buildup is a problem. I've decided to place the tower cooler like this so I can cool the chipset, get's extremely hot. Current temps at high loads are: CPU: 34 (OC'd to 4.2), Chipset: 40, GPU: 60 - temps are in celsius. Can you recommend me a better cooling set up, or should I leave it like this? I've tried the standard cooling setup that everyone seems to be using, front and bottom intakes, rear and top exhausts, but temperatures are waay to high like that.
> 
> Thanks.


I've did something similar in the past.
and yes, gave me best results in the term of temps too.

here's mine, back then:


I've been switched to a more conventional front to back airflow now, since it gave me better noise profile.
but guess what, with a bottom fan blowing inward.
the dust still horrible, especially in the lower section:


so maybe by removing the bottom intake and swtich it to a side panel intake (with filter) might help you with the dust problem while keeping the good temps (not sure with the noise, though







).
and by adding a small fan on the pci cover might help you cool the graphic as well,
I'm using an AMD stock fan here:


I've added a shourd on that tiny guy as well (buttom left)


----------



## Lancear16

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Like I said if you're controlling those fans just use a PWM splitter. A voltage fan controller is not worth it as you will not get below much less than 1700rpm.


Gotcha. Thanks.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Artistar
nice pc dude..i had a cm storm enforcer..same layout as your cases insides...worst case ive ever owned,,,temps/cooling was horrible in it....
you can always drill a few new holes off center in the top to mount it more to the side then push pull will happen

petkovski
have you tried turning the cpu cooler to blow towards the rear...the way its now is good,,but youre drawing heat form directly off the back of your gpu..


----------



## petkovski

Well yes, I know that I'm drawing heat from the gpu, but the tower is sufficient to cool down the CPU with that heat drawn in mind. Previously when I had the tower set up to blow towards the rear, my GPU temps climbed as high as 70, and my chipset temps were hovering around 50. With this setup, GPU temps never cross 60, and chipset stays at a steady 40. CPU temp is around 35 at full load while playing intensive games, previously it was at 30. I think the temps are pretty balanced, and will keep this setup for a few months until I do a regular dust cleanup, maybe I'll try something else then.

Here's a better pic from the PC, with some lightning effects


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ok how can your cpu only be 35???

guys look at this article
http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/cooler-master-nepton-240m-review,1.html

those fans are what i previously posted about the gentle typhoon style CM fans!!!!!!!!!!!!

i really hope these are going to be available separately in stores...looks very promising:thumb:


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> ok how can your cpu only be 35???
> 
> guys look at this article
> http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/cooler-master-nepton-240m-review,1.html
> 
> those fans are what i previously posted about the gentle typhoon style CM fans!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> i really hope these are going to be available separately in stores...looks very promising:thumb:


They're not GT-style.

If anything that design mirrors this delta and it has been around for ages! The Xbox 360 Slim has a fan of the same design from delta also.


In case you can't tell, this is a GT


also, if you haven't noticed CM has once copied the GT before with the sickleflow and that ranks as THE WORST fans I've ever come across.
and swiftech. and silverstone.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

dude
i did say STYLE////DESIGN type...yeah i know..i just like busting


----------



## petkovski

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> ok how can your cpu only be 35???


Is that too low or too high? I'm speaking celsius. Here are the temps after 20 minutes in Prime (don't mind the power, the readings are incorrect).
When I play games, the temperature of the CPU is higher because of the GPU heat that the tower is drawing. I had to make a compromise


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petkovski*
> 
> Well yes, I know that I'm drawing heat from the gpu, but the tower is sufficient to cool down the CPU with that heat drawn in mind. Previously when I had the tower set up to blow towards the rear, my GPU temps climbed as high as 70, and my chipset temps were hovering around 50. With this setup, GPU temps never cross 60, and chipset stays at a steady 40. CPU temp is around 35 at full load while playing intensive games, previously it was at 30. I think the temps are pretty balanced, and will keep this setup for a few months until I do a regular dust cleanup, maybe I'll try something else then.
> 
> Here's a better pic from the PC, with some lightning effects


whoa....
no rear fan at all









yep, the new pic tells moar than the previous one...
now I'm tempted to try that as well









but that would be mean re-routing my cables as well









edit:
just read your last post.
Man, you're lucky with your room temps.
guess winter is coming, huh?

do you mind to post your fans readout as well,
I'm really curious with their rpm


----------



## DaveLT

Eh it's AM3+. I'm not surprised it's reading 35C. Go check the actual temperature and you'll be surprised


----------



## petkovski

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> whoa....
> no rear fan at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yep, the new pic tells moar than the previous one...
> now I'm tempted to try that as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but that would be mean re-routing my cables as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit:
> just read your last post.
> Man, you're lucky with your room temps.
> guess winter is coming, huh?
> 
> do you mind to post your fans readout as well,
> I'm really curious with their rpm


Room temp is about 22 celsius. Fans are spinning at 1200 RPM's


----------



## petkovski

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Eh it's AM3+. I'm not surprised it's reading 35C. Go check the actual temperature and you'll be surprised


And how do I check the actuals temps?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petkovski*
> 
> And how do I check the actuals temps?


Use a infrared thermometer or a K-type point contact thermometer.


----------



## petkovski

We are all here discussing and comparing temps measured by hardware sensors and software. IR temp meters are another story.

How in the hell would you measure the CPU core with an IR meter? You can only read the surface temp on the chip itself, but not the core.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Use a infrared thermometer or a K-type point contact thermometer.


Best case it that will only give you surface temp of what point is touching or the temp within the area of the IF cone. Neither is applicable for monitoring CPU temperature.

petkovski
Generally CPU sensors are more accurate the closer to the maximum allowable temperature. AMD are notorious for reading way low at or near room temperature, but are more accurate the closer to maximum operating temp they get. At 55-60c they will be 1 - 2c off, while at 30c they may be 10c or more off. Your 14c idle temp is an example of this. We both know the CPU cannot be cooler than the room / air it is in.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

theres no such thing as core temp reading with AMD
you can read package temp and get a program to estimate individual cores, but they don't have sensors on their cores to check temps accurately

any probe will just read the temp of whatever its attached to. (with LN2 the kprobes go on the pots and don't really tell you much about core temp or cpu temp as much as temp of the pot's base)


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petkovski*
> 
> Room temp is about 22 celsius. Fans are spinning at 1200 RPM's


that's odd....
there's no chance cpu temps were lower than the room's.
I thought h/w info solved the bugs on AM3+









maybe another S/W monitor would solve the issue,
I too, got a ~25 degree rise from the idle temps (under IBT) also with a 1200rpm fan,
but I'm using a dual core cpu, ATM


----------



## doyll

petkovski,
Dave probably didn't take his medication today.








We can't monitor CPU temp with an IF sensor .. unless you want to try running your CPU with no cooler on it. :








tatmMRKIV
Does that really matter? Aren't the software reading good enough for our needs?


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> petkovski,
> Dave probably didn't take his medication today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can't monitor CPU temp with an IF sensor .. unless you want to try running your CPU with no cooler on it. :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tatmMRKIV
> Does that really matter? Aren't the software reading good enough for our needs?


which is what I was trying to say.
theres no better way than to use the onboard sensor because its under the lid

and k-probe even if it is precise, if its not on the core its not gonna matter
is just all i was trying to say

i mean attaching a sensor to the base of the cooler is just gonna read the cooler not the cpu

i was just trying to reiterate what one of you was saying about the k-probes


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> petkovski,
> Dave probably didn't take his medication today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can't monitor CPU temp with an IF sensor .. unless you want to try running your CPU with no cooler on it. :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tatmMRKIV
> Does that really matter? Aren't the software reading good enough for our needs?


Gettin' real tired of your crap doyll.
The way AMD sensors work is so bad that I had to resort to using a IR thermo when I was benching a 7850k. Unless your contact is poor your temps will be more or less spot on. And unlike Intel the FMx processors even though they use TIM (Not sure about 7850k) they have a large surface area so temp differences is pretty much close to zero

Aida64-E was reading something like 30C and obviously my room temp is nowhere near 23C for the stock cooler to be running so cool on full load and with a OC on the GPU


----------



## petkovski

I'm still relying on software measurements and I feel comfortable with that. Yes I know that AMD sucks at showing correct temperature the bigger the offset is from TMax, but I think that with these readings I'm pretty "cool" and I don't have to worry about overheating or damaging components.


----------



## inVain

@petkovski
another simple possibility is by relying to the mobo sensor during low,
something like this (the red square) on the h/w monitor:



it's not that accurate,
but probably better than having a false readout


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petkovski*
> 
> I'm still relying on software measurements and I feel comfortable with that. Yes I know that AMD sucks at showing correct temperature the bigger the offset is from TMax, but I think that with these readings I'm pretty "cool" and I don't have to worry about overheating or damaging components.


Actually, I get weird readings on Intel boards sometimes too so it's always safer to rely on what you can actually see.


----------



## petkovski

Will try and get a reading with an IR. I can actually point at the CPU itself because of the heatsink design. Will update both of you with my readings.


----------



## doyll

I'm from Missouri. I find it extremely hard to believe an IF reading off of edge of IHS setting under a heatsink isn't several degrees cooler than the actual chip.


----------



## Artistar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Artistar
> nice pc dude..i had a cm storm enforcer..same layout as your cases insides...worst case ive ever owned,,,temps/cooling was horrible in it....
> you can always drill a few new holes off center in the top to mount it more to the side then push pull will happen
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Artistar
> nice pc dude..i had a cm storm enforcer..same layout as your cases insides...worst case ive ever owned,,,temps/cooling was horrible in it....
> you can always drill a few new holes off center in the top to mount it more to the side then push pull will happen
> 
> X-PREDATOR, thanks for the 'compliment'. I think you've taken 'your eye off the ball' fella: I've already explanained, I already have a full push-pull set up. I think you got distracted by the Xigamatek 200mm fan on the top( I did say it was an earlier pic and also mentioned that I had a pair under the H100i and.a pair above.).
> 
> Presently temps are just a little too high not majorly chronic. The CPU goes to about 65 celcius on 'full chat'. With the GPU's reaching , top 80 and bottom 67. I'd like to bring it back down on the GPU front .
Click to expand...


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ive seen a few reviewers including linus tech tips use a IR sensor gun and in their newer test setup they use one of those with temp probes attached..
and compared to hwmonitor/coretemp/realtemp/aida/hwinfo
their alot more accurate and the software is usualy +-2 to 10°C warmer..
so neither is the best way
both methods have an upside and a dowside...

maybe if any1 here has a delid chip can put a temp probe directly to the core with the cooler on top? that should give best temp reading?

@dave..ive used plenty sickle flows..cant agree more..theyre horrible..theyre ok for 1 week then start with all their crap..
i was just saying these new fans in that review look very promising
if they go retail..ill definitely get a few and try them..already made a request from CM and supplier


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ok
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XbUoPSfM3mE

if any 1 can get a dozen of these fans...pm me asap...they look very promising...almost makes me wana buy that kit just to get them...


----------



## sav4

Anyone know how many amps a z87 asrock ext6 motherboard fan header can handle can't seem to find it in the manual I have 4 120 jetflo fans to hook up , and is it fine to hook a couple of these up to the 3 pin header ?
I was going to get a lamptron fc5 v3 but can't find any in Australia only the fc6 anyone know where these can be purchased ?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

http://pc.centrecom.com.au/search#w=lamptron

:thumb:http://search.pccasegear.com/search#w=lamptron:thumb:


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Anyone know how many amps a z87 asrock ext6 motherboard fan header can handle can't seem to find it in the manual I have 4 120 jetflo fans to hook up , and is it fine to hook a couple of these up to the 3 pin header ?
> I was going to get a lamptron fc5 v3 but can't find any in Australia only the fc6 anyone know where these can be purchased ?


As they are PWM you could use a PWM splitter with PSU power. That way the 12v power is coming directly from PSU and the motherboard header is only sending PWM signal and reading rpm from one of the fans.







Link in sig about PWM case fans shows them and how to do it.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Anyone know how many amps a z87 asrock ext6 motherboard fan header can handle can't seem to find it in the manual I have 4 120 jetflo fans to hook up , and is it fine to hook a couple of these up to the 3 pin header ?
> I was going to get a lamptron fc5 v3 but can't find any in Australia only the fc6 anyone know where these can be purchased ?


The standard amp draw motherboard fan headers are made to take is one amp.
A year ago, I had a 1.3 amp fan connected to mine and it caused boot problems. As Doyll just suggested, pins 1 and 2 go to the power supply, and pins 3 and 4 go to the PWM fan header. The fan is now controlled well, and there are no boot or fan problems. You can buy adaptors that make this connection easy.


----------



## sav4

Thanks . Ok I'll look into your suggestions . I came across this will this do the same ?

http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/231369394448?nav=SEARCH


----------



## sav4

Has anyone used the corsair command mini and is it any good or does the software still suck ?


----------



## Minigoon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Thanks . Ok I'll look into your suggestions . I came across this will this do the same ?
> 
> http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/231369394448?nav=SEARCH


I've ordered a Gelid PWM Splitter that draws power from a molex connector from PCCG.

Besides the stupidly slow dispatch time, stupidly slow shipping speed and stupidly overpriced shipping cost (which PCCG probably makes a killing on - $11 to send a cable?), hopefully it arrives soon and works.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Has anyone used the corsair command mini and is it any good or does the software still suck ?


It still does.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

that will work same as any other fanhub or pwm hub..easy and straightforward
i hope you get it and enjoy it when it arrives
cool beans


----------



## doyll

Using the word "Corsair" in a sentence without the word "trouble" is not easy to do.









PWM hubs hubs and splitters are not the same as 3-pin ones. PWM hubs can still control fan speed while using 12v from PSU.

 
Above drawings also show how to monitor RPM of other fans on hub / splitter.


----------



## vlaint

One of my afb1212he r00 fan is now not spinning as fast as it should be and not outputing the usual sound of a delta lol. Also my fan controller is now reporting rpm when this model has no rpm readouts. Anyone know of any fix? I tried interchanging the two fans and the faulty one still shows rpm so the fan controller is good.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> One of my afb1212he r00 fan is now not spinning as fast as it should be and not outputing the usual sound of a delta lol. Also my fan controller is now reporting rpm when this model has no rpm readouts. Anyone know of any fix? I tried interchanging the two fans and the faulty one still shows rpm so the fan controller is good.


Obviously there's no easy way to solve it apart from buying a new one. To me deltas have almost no tone to them ...
It's probably outputting RPM because it's spinning below it's nominal RPM, that's how the stall sensor works. If it is completely stalled the signal goes on full


----------



## vlaint

lubricating with oil is not recommended right?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> lubricating with oil is not recommended right?


If the fan is already making unpleasant noises, lubricating it will only prolong its inevitable replacement. If your fan is near the end of its life, it will never operating at its peak performance levels again. Fans are cheap when compared to the hardware that they protect, so It is wise to replace one at the first sign of problems.

Even if there are instructions and provisions for it, no one lubricates a good running fan, but there is no good reason for you not to. People normally use a fan till it shows signs of wear, then they replace it. If you have an expensive fan that you want to last forever, it does need to be on a maintenance schedule. What type lube should you use?? Oil is extremely temporary as a fan lubricant because it evaporates too quick. Standard grease is worse because it's too thick and as it dries, it gets thicker and becomes a tar like substance. They do make good fan lubricants, but you need to buy the right one. You need to buy something that is in-between oil and grease, something that will not evaporate and will take a long time to dry out. How often do I lubricate my fan?? Too often is better; use a high grade lubricant, and replace it before it dries out.


----------



## DaveLT

Fans of the same line from 1500-4000rpm are designed to have the same MTBF so it doesn't matter what RPM it runs at. That said, 2BBs usually last for like 5-10 years. Can't see it dying any sooner than that even if it does go slightly dry just dunk them in 0w-30 I think. It's either that or manual gearbox oil (something 80w-90 or similar)

FDBs, sealed sleeves (rifle, noctua's SSO







, Hydro) .. forget about oiling them. As for sleeves, you're in the wrong thread


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ok this is gonna sound dumb..but for.pure fun i used johsons baby oil and mixed it with vaseline
a teaspoon of oil on half a teaspoon of vaseline..mixed it up till not anymore runny..

used a Q tip and just a dabb of this gunk on the fan ( old ...very old yate loon
psu fan..as im saying this was for fun) and afterwards it ran smooth like silk...but a week later stalled...hajaha...

rather buy a new fan than using any type of lube and avoid many more headaches..


----------



## sav4

I was wondering when you guys set up custom fan profiles is there a general rule or setup you use ?


----------



## vlaint

Guess ill just be replacing it with a san ace that ive seen locally then. No money to buy from overseas now haha


----------



## sav4

I heard that you can still get gentle typhoons from nidec does anyone know the part no for them ? my cpu cooler fans are dieing


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> I heard that you can still get gentle typhoons from nidec does anyone know the part no for them ? my cpu cooler fans are dieing


What RPM?

also
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=PARV-F1
so tempted!


----------



## sav4

Thanks for the link The 1850rpm ones ap15 there the good ones for heat sinks eh ?


----------



## tatmMRKIV

D1225C12B5AP-15
should be the product number for the 1850RPM version


----------



## ds84

Wads the diff between afb1212L and 1212M aside frm specs? I see more sellers selling 1212M than 1212L...

Though i would prefer the 1212L due to lower dba and 1900 rpm if i undervolt them. Although static is quite a difference..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ds84*
> 
> Wads the diff between afb1212L and 1212M aside frm specs? I see more sellers selling 1212M than 1212L...
> 
> Though i would prefer the 1212L due to lower dba and 1900 rpm if i undervolt them. Although static is quite a difference..


If you're undervolting them there's no need for the AFB1212L because contrary to popular belief anything below 800rpm is detrimental to cooling when you're supposed to crank it up and AFB1212M will easily go down to 800rpm. Heck even an AFB1212H will go down that low via undervolting alone.

Either way you won't really hear them at 800rpm. I have mine set at 1100rpm and my PSU fan is louder than my entire rig's fans :|


----------



## vlaint

what are other recommended server fans aside from the deltas listed on the first page? cheapest delta i can get from ebay that ships free is $15 and above


----------



## GrimDoctor

Hi Dave, Great guide, I think I understand most of it lol.

In the instance pictured below, would this be a good Positive Air Pressure setup for this case?

I know this guide is mainly about air cooling but if I move the radiator to the front, would it be more or less beneficial for this setup?
Also, I guess, is that third fan worth installing?

Thanks, Grim.


----------



## doyll

You have 4x intake fans / vents and how many exhaust vents .. 1, maybe 2? It's positive pressure for sure, but case will only flow as much air as as it can take in / let out. The lesser of the two basically determines how much air the case will flow.

Keep in mind; what comes in must go out / what goes out much come in.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You have 4x intake fans / vents and how many exhaust vents .. 1, maybe 2? It's positive pressure for sure, but case will only flow as much air as as it can take in / let out. The lesser of the two basically determines how much air the case will flow.
> 
> Keep in mind; what comes in must go out / what goes out much come in.


But doyll, It would be impossible to fit another exhaust fan in that case because if you do to any of the fan mounts you would be recircling air.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> what are other recommended server fans aside from the deltas listed on the first page? cheapest delta i can get from ebay that ships free is $15 and above


Use CWC-group


----------



## CrazyElf

Anybody know how many amps the Gelid Fan Splitter can take? Would it be safe to run 4x AFB1212SHE PWM off them powered by a molex? They are 1.05A running, so I think about 1.6A starting. Also, anyone know the AWG thickness of the wires?

Planning to avoid the Akasa splitters as they look like they have a design flaw.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> If the fan is already making unpleasant noises, lubricating it will only prolong its inevitable replacement. If your fan is near the end of its life, it will never operating at its peak performance levels again. Fans are cheap when compared to the hardware that they protect, so It is wise to replace one at the first sign of problems.
> 
> Even if there are instructions and provisions for it, no one lubricates a good running fan, but there is no good reason for you not to. People normally use a fan till it shows signs of wear, then they replace it. If you have an expensive fan that you want to last forever, it does need to be on a maintenance schedule. What type lube should you use?? Oil is extremely temporary as a fan lubricant because it evaporates too quick. Standard grease is worse because it's too thick and as it dries, it gets thicker and becomes a tar like substance. They do make good fan lubricants, but you need to buy the right one. You need to buy something that is in-between oil and grease, something that will not evaporate and will take a long time to dry out. How often do I lubricate my fan?? Too often is better; use a high grade lubricant, and replace it before it dries out.


Any particular oil? Ehume recommends the heavy machine oil for sleeve bearing fans, but not as sure about ball bearing fans.
http://www.3inone.com/products/motor-oil/

Top fans these days can take 180,000 hours L10 @60C.

http://products.sanyodenki.com/en/contents/hp0114/list.php?CNo=114&ProCon=1634

I bet at room temperature, it'd be close to 300,000 hours.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Fans of the same line from 1500-4000rpm are designed to have the same MTBF so it doesn't matter what RPM it runs at. That said, 2BBs usually last for like 5-10 years. Can't see it dying any sooner than that even if it does go slightly dry just dunk them in 0w-30 I think. It's either that or manual gearbox oil (something 80w-90 or similar)
> 
> FDBs, sealed sleeves (rifle, noctua's SSO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , Hydro) .. forget about oiling them. As for sleeves, you're in the wrong thread


So you think automotive oil works well for ball bearing fans?

I remember reading that fan life was approximately inversely proportional to fan rpm, but I may be wrong. It may depend too on each fan.
http://www.electronics-cooling.com/1996/05/how-to-evaluate-fan-life/

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> what are other recommended server fans aside from the deltas listed on the first page? cheapest delta i can get from ebay that ships free is $15 and above


Try Aliexpress. Otherwise local listings and used industrial surplus fans are your best bet.

Nidec makes some good server fans too, as do San Ace, and Panaflo. I'd recommend avoiding EBM (expensive and not as good airflow:noise ratio), Sunon (don't undervolt very wel), and most of the other brands.

Among the consumer fans, the Jet Flo isn't too bad. Gentle Typhoons are regarded as some of the best fans around, if you can get some.


----------



## GrimDoctor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Anybody know how many amps the Gelid Fan Splitter can take? Would it be safe to run 4x AFB1212SHE PWM off them powered by a molex? They are 1.05A running, so I think about 1.6A starting. Also, anyone know the AWG thickness of the wires?
> 
> Planning to avoid the Akasa splitters as they look like they have a design flaw.
> Any particular oil? Ehume recommends the heavy machine oil for sleeve bearing fans, but not as sure about ball bearing fans.
> http://www.3inone.com/products/motor-oil/


I'm going to pick them up in a moment, so I'll see what the packaging says for you.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> But doyll, It would be impossible to fit another exhaust fan in that case because if you do to any of the fan mounts you would be recircling air.
> /quote]
> 
> 
> 
> I often advice using more intake airflow area than exhaust airflow area, but that is because most cases have vent areas where fans cannot be put. And with good fans some extra intake airflow will be pushed out of these areas.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Anybody know how many amps the Gelid Fan Splitter can take? Would it be safe to run 4x AFB1212SHE PWM off them powered by a molex? They are 1.05A running, so I think about 1.6A starting. Also, anyone know the AWG thickness of the wires?
> 
> Planning to avoid the Akasa splitters as they look like they have a design flaw.
> .


I have ran 3x TY-143 fans on the Gelid with no problems. They are rated 0.53 amp each. I would guess you could get away with a total of about 30watts. Area that might have undersized 12v & gnd would be from molex to where leads split. Wouldn't be too hard to remove pins from moles to replace the leads or double them up to handle more current.

Good idea.


----------



## GrimDoctor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I often advice using more intake airflow area than exhaust airflow area, but that is because most cases have vent areas where fans cannot be put. And with good fans some extra intake airflow will be pushed out of these areas.


So with the case I uploaded do you think it would be worth adding a 92mm behind the graphics cards for extra exhaust?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrimDoctor*
> 
> So with the case I uploaded do you think it would be worth adding a 92mm behind the graphics cards for extra exhaust?


Depends on your temps and how much warmer the air going into components is than the room temperature. Link in my sig to case airflow explains my thoughts and how to setup and test to see what works best.


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> But doyll, It would be impossible to fit another exhaust fan in that case because if you do to any of the fan mounts you would be recircling air.
> Use CWC-group


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> Anybody know how many amps the Gelid Fan Splitter can take? Would it be safe to run 4x AFB1212SHE PWM off them powered by a molex? They are 1.05A running, so I think about 1.6A starting. Also, anyone know the AWG thickness of the wires?
> 
> Try Aliexpress. Otherwise local listings and used industrial surplus fans are your best bet.
> 
> Nidec makes some good server fans too, as do San Ace, and Panaflo. I'd recommend avoiding EBM (expensive and not as good airflow:noise ratio), Sunon (don't undervolt very wel), and most of the other brands.
> 
> Among the consumer fans, the Jet Flo isn't too bad. Gentle Typhoons are regarded as some of the best fans around, if you can get some.


whats cwc? Yep i bought at aliexpress. any particular model of sanyo denki or the other brands?


----------



## GrimDoctor

I got my Gelid PWM Splitters...
On the CPU one, 1 fan doesn't work and it's the fan that has the four pins.
Also the CPU shows 0rpm.
Any ideas why this would happen? Not enough power?

I am running 2 x Noctua NF-P12 & 2 x CM Jetflo 120 - not that it matters (maybe) but these will change to NF-F12 and NF-A14 next week when the new lot arrives.

The second splitter will then run 3 x Noctua NF-P12 at the front.


----------



## GrimDoctor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrimDoctor*
> 
> I got my Gelid PWM Splitters...
> On the CPU one, 1 fan doesn't work and it's the fan that has the four pins.
> Also the CPU shows 0rpm.
> Any ideas why this would happen? Not enough power?
> 
> I am running 2 x Noctua NF-P12 & 2 x CM Jetflo 120 - not that it matters (maybe) but these will change to NF-F12 and NF-A14 next week when the new lot arrives.
> 
> The second splitter will then run 3 x Noctua NF-P12 at the front.


After testing on 2 other systems and various setups went back to the parts store, they tested it - faulty. Now we are rocking and rolling @ 26 celcius vs the 30 previous. Full voltage FTW!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I have ran 3x TY-143 fans on the Gelid with no problems. They are rated 0.53 amp each. I would guess you could get away with a total of about 30watts. Area that might have undersized 12v & gnd would be from molex to where leads split. Wouldn't be too hard to remove pins from moles to replace the leads or double them up to handle more current.
> 
> Good idea.


I have ran even thinner wires on a AFB1212SHE before.







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrimDoctor*
> 
> So with the case I uploaded do you think it would be worth adding a 92mm behind the graphics cards for extra exhaust?


I did the same thing in my case and it sure as hell dropped my temps since airflow drops off after a couple of cm and I'm not a fan of noise.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrimDoctor*
> 
> I got my Gelid PWM Splitters...
> On the CPU one, 1 fan doesn't work and it's the fan that has the four pins.
> Also the CPU shows 0rpm.
> Any ideas why this would happen? Not enough power?
> 
> I am running 2 x Noctua NF-P12 & 2 x CM Jetflo 120 - not that it matters (maybe) but these will change to NF-F12 and NF-A14 next week when the new lot arrives.
> 
> The second splitter will then run 3 x Noctua NF-P12 at the front.


Meh noctuas. Weedy.

Either the wires leading to the first fan is broken or the pin is broken. Check again.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> whats cwc? Yep i bought at aliexpress. any particular model of sanyo denki or the other brands?


The only decent San Aces to buy is the 9S series and that costs a bomb. AVC DA12025B12L?
cwc-group.com


----------



## GrimDoctor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I have ran even thinner wires on a AFB1212SHE before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did the same thing in my case and it sure as hell dropped my temps since airflow drops off after a couple of cm and I'm not a fan of noise.
> Meh noctuas. Weedy.
> 
> Either the wires leading to the first fan is broken or the pin is broken. Check again.
> The only decent San Aces to buy is the 9S series and that costs a bomb. AVC DA12025B12L?
> cwc-group.com


I knew at some point you'd say something about the Noctuas lol.
After a heap of testing it turned out the cable was faulty, they tested it at the shop I bought it from, confirming my testing and replaced it on the spot which was awesome.
Now she's running well, 1-2 degrees cooler with full voltage and gained an extra 1-2 degrees from making all the radiator fans intake push/pull.

I've been playing with more temps and benchmarking my GPU, it's running quite well but could be better so I'll try the rear GPU fan setup especially since it's SLI.
If I can find GTX760 water blocks that will be the next step.

Thanks for your advice Dave.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GrimDoctor*
> 
> I knew at some point you'd say something about the Noctuas lol.
> After a heap of testing it turned out the cable was faulty, they tested it at the shop I bought it from, confirming my testing and replaced it on the spot which was awesome.
> Now she's running well, 1-2 degrees cooler with full voltage and gained an extra 1-2 degrees from making all the radiator fans intake push/pull.
> 
> I've been playing with more temps and benchmarking my GPU, it's running quite well but could be better so I'll try the rear GPU fan setup especially since it's SLI.
> If I can find GTX760 water blocks that will be the next step.
> 
> Thanks for your advice Dave.


2-4 degrees isn't much ...








GTX760 = GTX670 ... Even most standard GTX970 uses GTX670 PCB design. There is only so much you can do that isn't limited to the component heatsink not cooling any better.
You can either try a fan elevated off the floor to face the GPU at the back of it (towards front of case) if it's an open design because open design tends to use the rear fan as the only vent.

I would rather use a Jetflo 120 than any noctua TBH.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I have ran even thinner wires on a AFB1212SHE before.


Doesn't mean it was the best thing to do.


----------



## vlaint

does the DA12025B12L have a 38mm model? and what about the 9g series?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> does the DA12025B12L have a 38mm model? and what about the 9g series?


Yes AVC has. They have too but they are not so easy to find.


----------



## vlaint

its better to have two of the same fans on the same side right? just trying to replace the bad afb1212he but i guess i need to save to buy 2. And seeing the prices of avc is comparable to deltas on ali express guess ill just buy a delta lol. also are the 9g series good of san ace?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> its better to have two of the same fans on the same side right? just trying to replace the bad afb1212he but i guess i need to save to buy 2. And seeing the prices of avc is comparable to deltas on ali express guess ill just buy a delta lol. also are the 9g series good of san ace?


It's mediocre compared to a delta afb


----------



## Spork13

Hi air cooling gurus.
I have a Phanteks enthoo Pro case and am currently using just the stock fans, a 200mm x 30mm intake http://www.phanteks.com/PH-F200SP.html claiming 110 cfm and 24 dB, and a 140mm x 25mm exhaust http://www.phanteks.com/PH-F140SP.html claiming 82cfm / 19 dB.
Drive cages have been removed, so air should have a clear path from front to components to rear of case.
I'd like things to be cooler, without being noisier. Specifically, I'd like my (non reference) GPU's (R9 280 + R9 280X) to run a bit cooler.

Existing options for extra fans are:

-Swap 200mm for 2 x 140mm. Could easily fit 38mm thick ones.

-Add 120 - 140mm intake @ front bottom of case.

-Add up to 3 x 140 (or 130) fans to top of case. (Or a 140 and the 200mm if I change front intake fans)

With a little creativity I could also add a 92mm exhaust externally, directly behind the PCIE slots to take hot air away from the GPU's, or 3 x 50mm fans internally exhausting through the grille just besides the expansion slots.

What are your thoughts on where I could add fans for the most benefit?

Is there any advantage in my case to using 38mm thick fans as opposed to the usual 25mm ones? (They would fit in any of the positions mentioned).

Would I be likely to see any benefit from mounting a fan right in front of the GPU's to direct air along and betwen them towards the back of the case? (Would have to mod a mount, but wouldn't be that difficult.)

I probably have more questions, but don't want you ll to go TLDR, so will leave it there for now.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spork13*
> 
> Hi air cooling gurus.
> I have a Phanteks enthoo Pro case and am currently using just the stock fans, a 200mm x 30mm intake http://www.phanteks.com/PH-F200SP.html claiming 110 cfm and 24 dB, and a 140mm x 25mm exhaust http://www.phanteks.com/PH-F140SP.html claiming 82cfm / 19 dB.
> Drive cages have been removed, so air should have a clear path from front to components to rear of case.
> I'd like things to be cooler, without being noisier. Specifically, I'd like my (non reference) GPU's (R9 280 + R9 280X) to run a bit cooler.
> 
> Existing options for extra fans are:
> 
> -Swap 200mm for 2 x 140mm. Could easily fit 38mm thick ones.
> 
> -Add 120 - 140mm intake @ front bottom of case.
> 
> -Add up to 3 x 140 (or 130) fans to top of case. (Or a 140 and the 200mm if I change front intake fans)
> 
> With a little creativity I could also add a 92mm exhaust externally, directly behind the PCIE slots to take hot air away from the GPU's, or 3 x 50mm fans internally exhausting through the grille just besides the expansion slots.
> 
> What are your thoughts on where I could add fans for the most benefit?
> 
> Is there any advantage in my case to using 38mm thick fans as opposed to the usual 25mm ones? (They would fit in any of the positions mentioned).
> 
> Would I be likely to see any benefit from mounting a fan right in front of the GPU's to direct air along and betwen them towards the back of the case? (Would have to mod a mount, but wouldn't be that difficult.)
> 
> I probably have more questions, but don't want you ll to go TLDR, so will leave it there for now.
> 
> Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.


First thing I will ask is what are temps now? CPU, GPU, room, CPU & GPU intake inside of case.You might find the link in sig to case airflow explaining the how and why of case airflow.


----------



## vlaint

even if the price is $5?lol


----------



## OxygeenHD

Good guide, It learnt me a lot.

But i've a question : Why did you said that Noctuas fan of any sort is banned here ?

Sure they are quite expensive, but are they really bad ??

I have a U12P-SE2, very silent at max speed. I've planned to replace all my Corsair stock case fans by NF-P12 ones.

I'm a silence freak by the way...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OxygeenHD*
> 
> Good guide, It learnt me a lot.
> 
> But i've a question : Why did you said that Noctuas fan of any sort is banned here ?
> 
> Sure they are quite expensive, but are they really bad ??
> 
> I have a U12P-SE2, very silent at max speed. I've planned to replace all my Corsair stock case fans by NF-P12 ones.
> 
> I'm a silence freak by the way...


They're just meh. One is ignorant if he thinks that a delta CANNOT be silent.


----------



## miklkit

I have been thinking about getting some Thermalright TY143 fans, but the orange color is just too ugly. Are there any other fans with similar performance that are at least black?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> I have been thinking about getting some Thermalright TY143 fans, but the orange color is just too ugly. Are there any other fans with similar performance that are at least black?


Noctua NF-A14 IPPC 2000rpm or 3000rpm perform the same at same rpm Make sure you are setting down when you look at the price.


----------



## miklkit

$30 bucks at Newegg, but they have the big square frame. How to mount them on a twin tower?


----------



## doyll

I think I would get a rattle can of black leather upholstery dye, the dye used on leather car seats and the like, and carefully spray a couple of TY-143 fans.


----------



## miklkit

Me? Careful?









Methinks I'll just stick with what I already have.


----------



## Spork13

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> First thing I will ask is what are temps now? CPU, GPU, room, CPU & GPU intake inside of case.You might find the link in sig to case airflow explaining the how and why of case airflow.


Hey mate.
Room is not air con, so temps vary. "This time of year, ambient is between 18 and 14c.
Under normal use (gaming etc) CPU gets to about 70-72c max.
GPUs can get over 90c!
This only happens in a few games that: are graphically intensive, and utilise Crossfire.
Just running a single card keeps temps mid 80's

While these temps aren't too bad, in a couple of months it will be 10-15c warmer ambient.
I also have very aggresive (noisy!) fan profiles set for the GPU's to keep them from getting even hotter, and would like to not be able to hear them wearing headphones!

Have read that guide before, but will have another look through it. That's why I'm concerned about smooth air flow v's chaotic air blow.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

how is anything over 80c not too bad?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> how is anything over 80c not too bad?


Because they are designed to handle 95C for a long period of time.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spork13*
> 
> Hey mate.
> Room is not air con, so temps vary. "This time of year, ambient is between 18 and 14c.
> Under normal use (gaming etc) CPU gets to about 70-72c max.
> GPUs can get over 90c!
> This only happens in a few games that: are graphically intensive, and utilise Crossfire.
> Just running a single card keeps temps mid 80's
> 
> While these temps aren't too bad, in a couple of months it will be 10-15c warmer ambient.
> I also have very aggresive (noisy!) fan profiles set for the GPU's to keep them from getting even hotter, and would like to not be able to hear them wearing headphones!
> 
> Have read that guide before, but will have another look through it. That's why I'm concerned about smooth air flow v's chaotic air blow.


That said with that ambient even 70C sounds rather high and my 280X doesn't even get anywhere near 80 with 30C ambients

What I did with my enthoo pro is remove the outer steel mesh and add a fan behind the GPU ... Did lower temps but it was a couple of degrees only because hot air tends to pack in every case without a side panel fan or a rearwards blowing fan
What you do need to do is lower the rear fan nearer to the GPU and change the fan to something which is faster because it is too dam slow but your choices are limited so go with a 120mm fan


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spork13*
> 
> Hey mate.
> Room is not air con, so temps vary. "This time of year, ambient is between 18 and 14c.
> Under normal use (gaming etc) CPU gets to about 70-72c max.
> GPUs can get over 90c!
> This only happens in a few games that: are graphically intensive, and utilise Crossfire.
> Just running a single card keeps temps mid 80's
> 
> While these temps aren't too bad, in a couple of months it will be 10-15c warmer ambient.
> I also have very aggresive (noisy!) fan profiles set for the GPU's to keep them from getting even hotter, and would like to not be able to hear them wearing headphones!
> 
> Have read that guide before, but will have another look through it. That's why I'm concerned about smooth air flow v's chaotic air blow.


My suggestion is start your own thread for this project.

The Praetorians are great old cases. Which one do you have? I'm afraid that unless you are willing to do some modifications we will have a hard time flowing enough air through it. I'll _ass_ume our R280 has 2x 92-100m/40cfm fans and CPU cooler is 120mm/65cfm fan so we need at least 150cfm of perfect airflow in order for component / cooler intakes receiving cool air. That is a lot of air for 2x 120-140mm fans to supply. Really need 3x 120-140mm intakes and similar exhaust vent area.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> My suggestion is start your own thread for this project.
> 
> The Praetorians are great old cases. Which one do you have? I'm afraid that unless you are willing to do some modifications we will have a hard time flowing enough air through it. I'll _ass_ume our R280 has 2x 92-100m/40cfm fans and CPU cooler is 120mm/65cfm fan so we need at least 150cfm of perfect airflow in order for component / cooler intakes receiving cool air. That is a lot of air for 2x 120-140mm fans to supply. Really need 3x 120-140mm intakes and similar exhaust vent area.


I think he's talking about his enthoo pro since he mentioned Crossfire which isn't in the praetorian


----------



## doyll

You are right. Forgot what he said in earlier post.









With Enthoo Pro the 180mm .. or is it a 200mm? .. and 1x 140 bottom intake should be fine. maybe change the front to 2x 140mm front as the front frame blocks the fan and I think creates noise / poor airflow..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You are right. Forgot what he said in earlier post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Enthoo Pro the 180mm .. or is it a 200mm? .. and 1x 140 bottom intake should be fine. maybe change the front to 2x 140mm front as the front frame blocks the fan and I think creates noise / poor airflow..


Surely you know right







It's a 200mm. 180mm fan holes are the same as 200mm I believe so maybe a AP182?








Well I would say that but with 140mm fan options are rather limited.


----------



## doyll

I don't think the problem is so much the fan as the frame / vent opening.


With all the framework in front of the fan, it's now wonder it 's loud and doesn't have good airflow. If the area inside of the circle was clear things would probably be different


----------



## Spork13

Thank you DaveLT and doyll.

So:
Swap rear exhaust for a faster 120mm.
Re-purpose it (exhaust) as a front / bottom intake.
Replace front 200mm with a pair of 120's or 140's.
(sound about right so far?)

*Should I be looking at adding a second exhaust fan at the top / rear of the case? (The 200 from the front might be persuaded to fit up there). Alternatively, I think I could fit 3 x 50mm or 2 x 60mm fans on the mesh panel between the GPU's and the side of the case as extra exhaust, right nextto the main source of heat.
*Any advantage in 38mm thick fans over 25mm in this case? Would they move more air per RPM = quieter, or am I dreaming?
*I could probably mod a mount to fit a fan directly in front of the GPU's. I realize this is a kind of "stacking" and will not increase overall air flow, but it _might_ help to direst the existing airflow to the hottest componensts. Worth trying, or a waste of time?
*What fans would you suggest? (exact model and a link to seller greatly appreciated!) Would like to use the existing ones, but if they are poor performers I could bite the bullet and replace. Must be able to run almost silently, but able to spin up and move a lot of air when needed.

Thanks for all your help fellas.


----------



## doyll

Good intake fans are often all that is needed. Same as on coolers. Most often quality coolers benefit very little for adding a second or third fan. I prefer 140mm fans to 120mm fans. 140omm of same size and design definitely flow more air than 120mm. Simple physics 120mm fan has about 100sq cm of airflow area and 140mm fan has about 140sq cm of airllow area. 2x 140mm fans will flow as much air and 3x 120mm fans of same design and speed.

If 120mm was optimum size, why aren't they being used on airplanes? Maybe it's because bigger fans / propellers actually do move more air and have more thrust / static pressure?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

thats true doyll..
to user...put the 200 as top exhuast..itll pull out a lot of heat and using 1 big fan there is
also saving on a bit of of power vs 2 fans up top..
bottom mount a fan underneath the gpus to get some air to them..side intake..front intake.
rear and top exit..
what cpu cooler are you sporting?


----------



## doyll

Only problem with using 200 as top exhaust is pulling the heated exhaust from GPU up around CPU cooler., thus increasing the air temp going into CPU cooler.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Good intake fans are often all that is needed. Same as on coolers. Most often quality coolers benefit very little for adding a second or third fan. I prefer 140mm fans to 120mm fans. 140omm of same size and design definitely flow more air than 120mm. Simple physics 120mm fan has about 100sq cm of airflow area and 140mm fan has about 140sq cm of airllow area. 2x 140mm fans will flow as much air and 3x 120mm fans of same design and speed.
> 
> *If 120mm was optimum size, why aren't they being used on airplanes? Maybe it's because bigger fans / propellers actually do move more air and have more thrust / static pressure?*


That's because they are rotated MUCH MORE FASTER and noise is hardly kept down.
Truth is on computer fans the faster the bigger fans are rotated the more noise is generated to keep up with the smaller fan's airflow and static pressure, if you don't believe me try looking at san ace's 14025 vs delta's AFB (Delta doesn't make a 14025)

And if they are really that good why don't blade servers use 140mm fans? They can but they're not using 140mm fans


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> That's because they are rotated MUCH MORE FASTER and noise is hardly kept down.
> Truth is on computer fans the faster the bigger fans are rotated the more noise is generated to keep up with the smaller fan's airflow and static pressure, if you don't believe me try looking at san ace's 14025 vs delta's AFB (Delta doesn't make a 14025)
> 
> And if they are really that good why don't blade servers use 140mm fans? They can but they're not using 140mm fans


Actually as blades / propellers increase in diameter the maximum efficient operating speed drops rather than increases. This is because there is a maximum surface speed at which the blade will function properly. That is why aircraft engines are low rpm or use reduction gearing.


----------



## smithydan

Anyone has any ears on experience(lol) with the Cooler Master Silencio FP120s, came across Linus mentioning them and they did perform good, also Paul from Paul'sHardware gave an audio test and they were reasonable in his test.

Specs
• High Air Pressure - 4.8 mm H2O
• Low Noise Output - 27 dBA(Max)
• Ultra Low Current - 4.8 w(12V, 0.4A)

They are not available commercially but do come with the nepton 240m and some of their cases I think. So this might b a long shot.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *smithydan*
> 
> Anyone has any ears on experience(lol) with the Cooler Master Silencio FP120s, came across Linus mentioning them and they did perform good, also Paul from Paul'sHardware gave an audio test and they were reasonable in his test.
> 
> Specs
> • High Air Pressure - 4.8 mm H2O
> • Low Noise Output - 27 dBA(Max)
> • Ultra Low Current - 4.8 w(12V, 0.4A)
> 
> They are not available commercially but do come with the nepton 240m and some of their cases I think. So this might b a long shot.


Here's a fan review with them in it. They don't look too bad. The specs do seem rather exaggerated.








Dimensions . . . . .120 x 120 x 25 mm
Fan Speed . . . . . 800~2400 RPM (PWM) ± 10%
Air Flow. . . . . . . 16.5 - 76 CFM (28 - 128 m3/h) ± 10%
Air Pressure . . . . 0.48~4.8 mmH2O
Life Expectancy . 160,000 hours
Noise Level . . . . .6.5~27 dBA
Bearing Type . . . Loop Dynamic Bearing (LDB)
Connector . . . . . 4-Pin
Rated Voltage. . . 12 VDC

http://www.tech-critter.com/2014/10/unboxing-review-noctua-redux.html


----------



## X-PREDATOR

from what ive been told and seen their very good indeed.not to noisy..great airflow..and decent SP at low rpm still....make into LED fans also or different colors too and im hooked...

@doyll,,thats true but not if the gpus are stock cooler type as much..plus the rear exhaust takes care of that too..depending on if he is using a huge air cooler..in my own rig ..just an example..i feel more air being pulled from the top of the cooler than in front or between the cooler and gpu backside
granted not every setup will bahave identical


----------



## smithydan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Here's a fan review with them in it. They don't look too bad. The specs do seem rather exaggerated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dimensions . . . . .120 x 120 x 25 mm
> Fan Speed . . . . . 800~2400 RPM (PWM) ± 10%
> Air Flow. . . . . . . 16.5 - 76 CFM (28 - 128 m3/h) ± 10%
> Air Pressure . . . . 0.48~4.8 mmH2O
> Life Expectancy . 160,000 hours
> Noise Level . . . . .6.5~27 dBA
> Bearing Type . . . Loop Dynamic Bearing (LDB)
> Connector . . . . . 4-Pin
> Rated Voltage. . . 12 VDC
> 
> http://www.tech-critter.com/2014/10/unboxing-review-noctua-redux.html


Thanks,

Linus had results that didn't much much from the noctuas either, so it seems like these will be my next rad fans if the become available.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Actually as blades / propellers increase in diameter the maximum efficient operating speed drops rather than increases. This is because there is a maximum surface speed at which the blade will function properly. That is why aircraft engines are low rpm or use reduction gearing.


Faster than you think they do


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Faster than you think they do


No, not faster than I think. But obviously you think you know more than you really do. .. again.








Do you have a fixed win licience? No? You have no idea of what I do or don't know either. and know anything about it? I do. Many performance prop aircraft can easily over-speed the prop causing the plane to slow down, especially when cruising at altitude .. and in order to gain the speed back the engine prop speed must be slowed down..

It's all about blade surface speed and pitch. But obviously you know all of this.


----------



## Spork13

Should I use a Cessna or a Beechcraft for intake?


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spork13*
> 
> Should I use a Cessna or a Beechcraft for intake?


Rolls Royce


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spork13*
> 
> Should I use a Cessna or a Beechcraft for intake?


----------



## doyll

Rolls Royce or Allison.


----------



## Spork13

Hmm.
I do have an old leaf vac, thats stuck on "blow", that I no longer use...


----------



## jubjub532

Where can i buy industrial fans from that ships to UK? I need to buy at least 3 new fans for my case.


----------



## Spork13

Well, the PC shop didn't have a single Rolls Royce turboprop in stock, and didn't know when next batch would arrive.
Hard to find Deltas in Australia too, unless I want to pay over $50 for a fan posted from the states.
Ended up ordering 4 more 140mm Phanteks fans and a couple of splitters (I use the MB headers, not the fan hub).

Plan is to put 2 on the front and one on the bottom as intakes, the 4th I want to rig up to blow directly onto and inbetween the GPU's
Will report back hopefully with some lower temps and noise levels.


----------



## inVain

Dave,

is there any particular reason why a fan was always designed with an odd number of blades attached to it?
I've seen 11, 9, 7, 5, and 3 bladed fan, but nothing with an even number of blades


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> Dave,
> 
> is there any particular reason why a fan was always designed with an odd number of blades attached to it?
> I've seen 11, 9, 7, 5, and 3 bladed fan, but nothing with an even number of blades


It has do with balance







A 4 bladed fan is not balanced for example.


----------



## Luke Cool

Any fan designed with more than one blade can be well balanced using the other blades.
A fan can be perfectly balanced and still have a resonance problem.
Both have a similar effect, so they're often confused.
Fans in ducts and enclosures have odd numbers of blades to help prevent resonance.
One object vibrating at the same natural frequency of a second object forces that second object into vibrational motion. An odd number of objects thrown into the mix counters this action.
The odd numbered blade has more to do with preventing vibration and noise.


----------



## Tisca

Quote:


> Q: Using SP for in and out fans and AF for internal
> A: *SP is good for everything. Don't bother with AF*
> 
> Q: Static Pressure Fans better at Airflow with Dust Filter?
> A: Certainly. *Unless there's no filter (never try this on a intake) "AF" fans will perform better but trust me honeycomb grilles will even affect AF fans airflow ... Again, higher SP fans please*.


What about *no-restriction output fan*? AF or SP? (140mm)
Wondering specifically for a Corsair Air 540. There's a grille but it's one of these: IMAGE.jpg , so barely any restriction.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

sp optimized is still best way to go..even with little to no restriction itll still
provide the better airflo vs an normal af type fan


----------



## tatmMRKIV

whelp got them AP-31s ordered finally
21.50 each. its gonna be really fun to pair those with my GTX nemesis rads


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> whelp got them AP-31s ordered finally
> 21.50 each. its gonna be really fun to pair those with my GTX nemesis rads


Jesus christ ... I have a fear of those GTX rads


----------



## tatmMRKIV

I waited for all the numberws to come in for the 480 radiator roundup and it scales with speed like a BEAST
I was going to get a mayhems havoc but it really falls short of the other rads with high speed fans

OH YEAH plus the radiator was 20% off last night so instead of 180 it was just 150


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> I waited for all the numberws to come in for the 480 radiator roundup and it scales with speed like a BEAST
> I was going to get a mayhems havoc but it really falls short of the other rads with high speed fans
> 
> OH YEAH plus the radiator was 20% off last night so instead of 180 it was just 150


I don't want a rad that only performs optimally at high speed.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

they do well with mid speed
I have been using a gtx360 for 2gtx680 dc2 and a 4790k
stays cool enough when I game for HOURS I think liquid hits 80F at the highest when my ambient is 70
just the fans I have are complete crap so even at their highest rpm they aren't moving much air
plus i have 1 140mm pushing with 2 120s so its just terribly configured at the moment


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> they do well with mid speed
> I have been using a gtx360 for 2gtx680 dc2 and a 4790k
> stays cool enough when I game for HOURS I think liquid hits 80F at the highest when my ambient is 70
> just the fans I have are complete crap so even at their highest rpm they aren't moving much air
> plus i have 1 140mm pushing with 2 120s so its just terribly configured at the moment


Sounds ... not legit. 50% load probably yes but gaming for hours? BTW if anyone's temps go up only after a few hours then there's a serious hotspot somewhere


----------



## tatmMRKIV

well thats with the fans turned down... I think...
I really need the fans replaced.

I will update temps later this afternoon after I game some.

I also overclocked the living crap out of all my components.. the GPUs are at 1315 mhz in sli and the cpu isn't really oc'd its at 4-4.3 for when I game as the processor is a memory bencher so it has weak cores for processing but it does 5ghz 32M

but like i said the fans are probably the worst conglomeration of fan/radiator ever put together I got 3 cougar hpb fans 1 phantek 140mm crap fan 1wierd POS thermaltake fan and a bgears fan.
for pull its the bgears a cougar and a thermaltake for push its a 140 phantek and 2 cougar hpvb fans

yeah it needs close to full fan speed for my particular setup but I also have alot of mitigating factors
like a fan mesh over the intake, terrible fans, terible fan placement, and I dont really have an exhaust on the PC right now


----------



## X-PREDATOR

wowzerz..and i thaught i had issues..you definitely need some TLC in your rig brother...No pun intended
i really hope you get what ya need..
having identical fans often makes things more simplified and unified...

im awaiting on a source for certain fans to hit our shores..gonna getthemand see..


----------



## tatmMRKIV

its really just thrown together right now since I been waiting on a cpu and fans for my desk build.

theres simply no room for 38mm deltas with all the other components I have to cram in there so m,y options are pretty limited...


----------



## X-PREDATOR

i wasnt being the judge or jury bro..just making friendly conversation dude..small talk..
pm me some pics of the setup..maybe i can help via verbal abuse to help ya..hahaha


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It has do with balance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 4 bladed fan is not balanced for example.


hahaha....
glad to know that a fan's blade was intended to have the odd numbers.

that's telling me that people who're joking by comparing fans to an aircraft propeller don't know what they're talking about, huh?
since I've seen bunch of aircraft propeller had even number of blades attached to it


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> hahaha....
> glad to know that a fan's blade was intended to have the odd numbers.
> 
> that's telling me that people who're joking by comparing fans to an aircraft propeller don't know what they're talking about, huh?
> since I've seen bunch of aircraft propeller had even number of blades attached to it


You got that backwards.

If you think aircraft propellers are not balanced you definitely don't need help .. because you can't or won't use knowledge.. and would rather troll others.
















The odd / prime number blade count has to do with harmonics and resonance of a shrouded fans. Shrouds are used to reduced thrust loss at / near tip of fan / propeller. This concept is often seen on aircraft, hovercraft, airships, computer fans, etc.


----------



## DaveLT

Thinking about it, has to do with design as well and some other reasons. I'm not a propeller engineer obviously I just know airflow patterns from thinking up of and designing of enclosures for the stuff I do as a EE


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> i wasnt being the judge or jury bro..just making friendly conversation dude..small talk..
> pm me some pics of the setup..maybe i can help via verbal abuse to help ya..hahaha


yeah i was just sayin,

as far as properly setting it up goes, I really just need to get it setup in the final way I wanted it.
i have to swap out the radiator I am using and some other parts.. but that rad uses 140mm fans so I am going to wait till I can hash out my other build before I put the finishing touches on this one.


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> If you think aircraft propellers are not balanced you definitely don't need help .. because you can't or won't use knowledge.. and would rather troll others.


if you think you know what I'm thinking, it's you who really need help here


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> if you think you know what I'm thinking, it's you who really need help here


I don't think I know what you're thinking, but when you write.
Quote:


> glad to know that a fan's blade was intended to have the odd numbers.
> 
> that's telling me that people who're *joking by comparing fans to an aircraft propeller don't know what they're talking about*, huh?


I know you are either trolling and not very bright.









Aircraft propeller are balanced, have different blade counts,




and some shrouds too.
 

So quite trolling and use your intelligence for something constructive.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

guys..chillax bros..
doyll your correct..
other dude..i think you meant differently but your word order ddnt come out right
either way...chill dudes...please..take it from a guy who knows the itch to blow up..

aircraft tech..its like the mother of airflo tech available today..heck there were planes and aircrafts long before cooling fans and stuff...were do you all think these guys get their ideas from? pepstores or k mart? nope..high qaulified engineers


----------



## tatmMRKIV

As a qualified pilot, I have to add that planes fly

... oh wait... we weren't stating obvious facts about planes?


----------



## inVain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I don't think I know what you're thinking, but when you write.
> I know you are either trolling and not very bright.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aircraft propeller are balanced, have different blade counts,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some shrouds too.
> 
> 
> So quite trolling and use your intelligence for something constructive.


thx a bunch, geezer

you still missed the bottom line, though.
and I'm begin understand why


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inVain*
> 
> thx a bunch, geezer
> 
> you still missed the bottom line, though.
> and I'm begin understand why


Name calling is just more trolling.
Move on.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Scientist say that propellers are given to us by our alien gods -Ancient aliens-


----------



## Luke Cool

Propellers are highly engineered. The pitch decreases as it gets farther from the center. This is so the air will be pushed straight behind the blade and the thrust will be focused. If the pitch was straight all the way down the blade, the air would spay outward behind the propeller. On a fan, if you are just moving air, this does not matter. But If you need a high static pressure from the fan, there are two additional requirements; (like a propeller) the fan's blades need to be engineered to focus the air, (since focused air require more power) the capacity of the motor will have to be adjust to easily handle the additional stress.

An Airplane Propeller's Pitch

In two post below, I stand corrected, Bertovzki is correct. And I know this, I just said it wrong.
I have corrected this post. Thanks for the polite correction Bertovzki.


----------



## tatmMRKIV

Lol fer real? More plane facts?
And if you want to talk propeller blades i think helicopters would be more relevant. Planes are so beyond propellers right now. I mean they are gonna be done with jet engines soon enough
anyways from what i remember plane prop design doesnt get thaaaaat crazy i think they have some set designs they scale off of.
Also they almost all if not all are able to controll the pitch of the blades individually mid flight

There are alot Of principals that make carrying principles over to here less than ideal

also we dont deal with changing air density

Some might though. I meanni can get my 1000+page aopa guidelines book out


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> Propellers are highly engineered. The pitch increases as it gets farther from the center. This is so the air will be pushed straight behind the blade and the thrust will be focused. If the pitch was straight all the way down the blade, the air would spay outward behind the propeller. On a fan, if you are just moving air, this does not matter. But If you need a high static pressure from the fan, there are two additional requirements; (like a propeller) the fan's blades need to be engineered to focus the air, (since focused air require more power) the capacity of the motor will have to be adjust to easily handle the additional stress.
> 
> An Airplane Propeller's Pitch


My knowledge comes from building model aircraft, simulator flying and limited flight experience in real aircraft.
It is in fact the other way around , pitch decreases the further from the center this is for at least 2 reasons , firstly the blade is spinning slower in the center and the speed is much greater at the tip of the blade , so as you get further out toward the tip it is a gradual and fairly linear change back to near zero pitch at the tips.

When you are talking on a small scale like in the case of model aircraft , you need the right size blade and the right pitch , also the the amount of blades , its to do with torque vs engine RPM in the simplest terms , too shallow a pitch angle and the engine will over rev an die ! to shallow much the same , too much stress on the engine and out of balance propeller vs engine RPM and not maximizing the efficiency of the blade.
I am building a 6 channel MK9 Spitfire at the moment as well as my PC , i have chosen to go with a 3 blade prop , for aesthetics reasons only as it is only noticeable when the motor is off ,but i want it to look better than perform better , its a scale model so it's not about aerobatics , if i want to do that then i will put a 2 blade prop on ,or just build a Sukhoi or extra or something

In general the more powerful the motor and the faster you want to go the more shallow the pitch to get higher RPM's and a larger blade diameter to gain more thrust.

To my limited knowledge how the air flow backwash off the fan blade or prop is concerned is to do with the design of the tip of the blade and in the case of fans also the fan shroud , how these two designs direct air flow , and in both cases would be desirable to have the airflow going directly back with out all the disturbed airflow and severe sideways washout that comes from some designs , this maybe desirable in some application , but with aircraft its all about forward thrust and in my case i prefer my case fans for e.g to push air in a concentrated and controlled flow in one direction ( not out to the sides with huge side wash ) , thats my preference anyway.

As far as fans are concerned in general for my own purposes just about any fan on the market today or for the last 10 years would suit my needs I definitely dont want high RPM fans , quiet is good mostly and some reasonable performance , thats why i went against good advise on this thread and have good Aerocool DS all round , as they perform at least as well as a SP or AF 120 or 140 by very basic tests of my own , but once again quiet and aesthetics have been the decider for me and im happy with that , i need very low air flow in general


----------



## Spork13

Can anyone recommend a good aeroplane (vintage / propeller) forum I can join - to discuss PC cooling fans???


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> Lol fer real? More plane facts?
> And if you want to talk propeller blades i think helicopters would be more relevant. Planes are so beyond propellers right now. I mean they are gonna be done with jet engines soon enough
> anyways from what i remember plane prop design doesnt get thaaaaat crazy i think they have some set designs they scale off of.
> Also they almost all if not all are able to controll the pitch of the blades individually mid flight
> 
> There are alot Of principals that make carrying principles over to here less than ideal
> 
> also we dont deal with changing air density
> 
> Some might though. I meanni can get my 1000+page aopa guidelines book out


You have no idea what you are talking about.








Many planes still use propellers with increasing technology., there are many different kinds and shapes, and blades cannot be individually controlled.

And even jet engines use blades.









Bertovzki is correct. the farther from center the faster the surface speed the flatter the pitch .. not only to flow air straight back but because as surface speed increases if pitch is too steep there will be cavitation.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spork13*
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good aeroplane (vintage / propeller) forum I can join - to discuss PC cooling fans???


I would not be surprised in the least if you did find a thread on an aero club or model club where dudes talk about their fans














it all makes for good information and knowledge ,and could be said to be fully on topic , as the blade or impeller , propeller is what cools your PC


----------



## tatmMRKIV

What part of them moving are you disputing? Propeller pitch can be changed midflight through onboard controlls.

You get like 15-30degrees of change

You dont have just one changing pitch they all do simultaneously, obviously.

And what increasing tech? blade design is basically the same for the last 30 years aside from materials. Like some switch to carbon.

And jet engines use impellers not fans


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tatmMRKIV*
> 
> What part of them moving are you disputing? Propeller pitch can be changed midflight through onboard controlls.
> 
> You get like 15-30degrees of change
> 
> You dont have just one changing pitch they all do simultaneously, obviously.
> 
> And what increasing tech? blade design is basically the same for the last 30 years aside from materials. Like some switch to carbon.
> 
> And jet engines use impellers not fans


Your exact words:
Quote:


> able tocontroll the pitch of the blades *individually*


The blades cannot be controlled individually.
Blade pitch can be adjusted yes, but all blades on each engine change in unison, not individually.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many planes still use propellers with increasing technology., there are many different kinds and shapes, and blades cannot be individually controlled.
> 
> And even jet engines use blades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bertovzki is correct. the farther from center the faster the surface speed the flatter the pitch .. not only to flow air straight back but because as surface speed increases if pitch is too steep there will be cavitation.


To get an Aerospace Engineering degree, the study of propeller and fan aerodynamics is a major part of what you learn about.

On this planet, there are a lot more propeller driven air frames, than any other type.
Because of the expense, jet engines in private aircraft are rare.
The military even still uses propellers. I do not see any reason for there demise in the foreseeable future, props are here to stay.


----------



## doyll

@ Luke Cool

Why did you quote me?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Unless they start building hover aircraft carriers like in movies luke..hey would you mind if i used your profile avatar pic for a design i wana do on a psu cover?


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Unless they start building hover aircraft carriers like in movies luke..hey would you mind if i used your profile avatar pic for a design i wana do on a psu cover?


I took one that looked like it, and heavily modified it to what you see now.
You are welcome to use it. Here is both


----------



## i_ame_killer_2

Found JetFlo 120 in a local store for -51% off regular price. Snatched 11


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *i_ame_killer_2*
> 
> Found JetFlo 120 in a local store for -51% off regular price. Snatched 11


Nice.


----------



## Mopar63

If you have enough positive air flow do you need an exhaust fan?

I am trying a V21 build there I am using the front stock 200mm and then put a Water 2.0 Extreme on the right side with the fans as pull intake and on the GPU side I put two 120 PWM fans (same as the Thermaltake Water 2.0 fans as intakes as well. That is 4x 120mm fans intaking on each side at lower speeds (staying around 45% power) and the front 200mm fan.

My goal is to really cool the GPU and have a bit of overkill for my none overclocked 4790K with the larger radiator and try to achieve near silent cooling. I am controlling the fans via a Z87 Gryphon and the Asus software.

Will the positive air flow give enough pressure for exhaust or do I need a rear exhaust fan?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> If you have enough positive air flow do you need an exhaust fan?
> 
> I am trying a V21 build there I am using the front stock 200mm and then put a Water 2.0 Extreme on the right side with the fans as pull intake and on the GPU side I put two 120 PWM fans (same as the Thermaltake Water 2.0 fans as intakes as well. That is 4x 120mm fans intaking on each side at lower speeds (staying around 45% power) and the front 200mm fan.
> 
> My goal is to really cool the GPU and have a bit of overkill for my none overclocked 4790K with the larger radiator and try to achieve near silent cooling. I am controlling the fans via a Z87 Gryphon and the Asus software.
> 
> Will the positive air flow give enough pressure for exhaust or do I need a rear exhaust fan?


It works just fine.

Think of the case as pond and the intake and exhausts as streams of water. All the water that runs into pond runs out. The currents / channels the water flows in through the case is what makes the difference. We want them to flow cool air to component intakes and flow the components heated exhaust out of case without mixing with the cool air.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

what case exactly are you using?


----------



## Mopar63

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> what case exactly are you using?


Thermaltake Core V21


----------



## Curleyyy

*Two questions.*

*1.)* Would having faster ( more CFM / Static Pressure ) fans in my case cool down my components better?

*Scenario:* My room throughout summer will be *31c* which is bloody hot here, so if I swapped my 95 CFM Jetflo fans for Deltas, would my temps drop?

*2.)* What would everyone recommend as a fan controller?

I'm looking at either the Lamtron FC2 for $35 or the Lamtron VC5 v3 for $99.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

hi..i would atleast consider a realy strong 120/140mm as a rear exhuast fan to help pull out the heat..i see that case is very diy friendly and has a huge variety of cooling options..why not instead
put the rad in the top as exhuast too pulling air out..or pushing..
then all the front and sides as intakes and top and rear as exhuast..were will the rig b standing?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

other guy..the jetflos as shown previously by many has already very strong airflo..so it realy depends on the case layout and if you have plenty obstructions in the airflo path...i feel your concern too..my room this year has already doubled from last years summer..im hitting above 30+ already and my darn ac broke yesterday..im dying here..
maybe try what i do..dont use the system during the day..only at night when its a little cooler...


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> *Two questions.*
> 
> *1.)* Would having faster ( more CFM / Static Pressure ) fans in my case cool down my components better?
> 
> *Scenario:* My room throughout summer will be *31c* which is bloody hot here, so if I swapped my 95 CFM Jetflo fans for Deltas, would my temps drop?
> 
> *2.)* What would everyone recommend as a fan controller?
> 
> I'm looking at either the Lamtron FC2 for $35 or the Lamtron VC5 v3 for $99.


Unless your heatsink is passive intake fans are to ventilate the case and exhaust fans are basically to "direct" airflow and just enough should be able to prevent the case airflow from going stagnant.
More static pressure means better airflow when restriction is introduced but more CFM doesn't necessarily translate to better performance either and there is ALWAYS a point of diminishing returns.

Not really no if you went to a Delta AFB. It really wouldn't.

Green line is the delta.

I would just use PWM if you could because I tried every fan controller and the good ones tend to be like a lamptron FC5V2 (Or a clone in my case it works anyway and it definitely works million times better than that junk NZXT Sentry 3 I have)


----------



## Curleyyy

I think I'll just stick with Jetflo fans. They _seem_ to be sufficient enough. I currently use ASUS AI Suite Fan XPERT2 as software control. I've got the PWM mode setup with a custom aggressive curve that does the trick, *however sometimes the program doesn't kick in properly*, so I'll have to manually set it on reboot and then it's good from there, which gets annoying. I'd much rather having a physical fan controller where I know it will be running at what it's running at. Plus I've run out of PWM ports on my motherboard.

Would this setup be okay for optimal airflow?

*Case: Corsair 650D* / I'm going to remove the 240mm front fan and replace it with 3 x 120 mm fans.
*Fans: CM Jetflo 120*

Where the thick, grey line is down the bottom / I'm going to place a sheet across there like you see in lots of builds. I'm thinking either white LED plate / mirror / carbon fiber vinyl wrapping.

*I'm looking for a Hard Drive caddy that has four slots* so I can fit the SSD in there without having to mount it on the back plate. Just less work for me.


----------



## DaveLT

Use a "PWM" splitter and you're there. Yes ASUS AI Suite usually sucks but if you can get the fan curve set through the BIOS or better use speedfan and let it control via GPU temps also will be nice.
As for your top intake if you're using just a "air cooled heatsink" just 1 intake above the VRMs is enough.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> *Two questions.*
> 
> *1.)* Would having faster ( more CFM / Static Pressure ) fans in my case cool down my components better?
> 
> *Scenario:* My room throughout summer will be *31c* which is bloody hot here, so if I swapped my 95 CFM Jetflo fans for Deltas, would my temps drop?
> 
> *2.)* What would everyone recommend as a fan controller?
> 
> I'm looking at either the Lamtron FC2 for $35 or the Lamtron VC5 v3 for $99.


There is much more to cooling than how much air the fans move. You might find links below helpful.


----------



## Curleyyy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Use a "PWM" splitter and you're there. Yes ASUS AI Suite usually sucks but if you can get the fan curve set through the BIOS or better use speedfan and let it control via GPU temps also will be nice.
> As for your top intake if you're using just a "air cooled heatsink" just 1 intake above the VRMs is enough.


Fan 4 and 5 is where the radiator is. I previously had it setup in a push configuration, but after changing to pull my CPU temps dropped ~ 10c.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> Fan 4 and 5 is where the radiator is. I previously had it setup in a push configuration, but after changing to pull my CPU temps dropped ~ 10c.


 okay that'll do.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

cool.. 650D is a great case..
that line -you meant psu cover?
at the very front end..try and make it with a 45° angled slant downwRds so that all 3 front fans push air up /into the setup..that front angled bit will force the bottom
fans air to be pushed more upwards helping with cooling...

mount the ssd at the back bro..it looks alot neater then..hds canbe mounted in the 5" drive bays..just google for hd to 5.25 bay caddies..icydock makes some realy nice ones that has hotswap and ssd mounts..another cool way for xtra drives are docking stations...looks tacky..but works..

post some pics of the current config


----------



## Curleyyy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> cool.. 650D is a great case..
> that line -you meant psu cover?


yeah, like it covers the entire bottom section
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> at the very front end..try and make it with a 45° angled slant downwRds so that all 3 front fans push air up /into the setup..that front angled bit will force the bottom
> fans air to be pushed more upwards helping with cooling...


So you're saying I should bend the plate at a 45° angle like in this photo following the yellow dotted line? the idea was to have one fan pushing cool air for the hard drives and psu


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> mount the ssd at the back bro..it looks alot neater then..hds can be mounted in the 5" drive bays..just google for hd to 5.25 bay caddies..icydock makes some realy nice ones that has hotswap and ssd mounts..another cool way for xtra drives are docking stations...looks tacky..but works..


For me to have 3 x 120 mm fans in the front panel of the 650d i have to actually cut out 3 of the 5.25" bay slots.


----------



## Nauticle

Hello Im trying to find the best option for upgrading the cooling of my rig for the least amount of money.

Specs:
CPU: Intel Core i7-870 @ stock speeds w/ Noctua NH-D14 (2xNF-P14 push/pull. The NF-P12 that came with the cooler is a spare currently)
Motherboard: Asus Maximus III Formula
RAM: 2x2GB G.Skill DDR3-1333, 2x4GB G.Skill DDR3-1600 (oops)
GPU: EVGA GeFroce GTX 570 1.2GB @ stock speeds
PSU: Silverstone Strider 1000w
Storage: 1 Samsung 840 Pro 128GB SSD, 5 HDDs.
Case: Corsair 600T (all stock fans)
AD900x Headphones (open)

I know I have limited options if I dont want to mod my case so I would be willing to buy a new one (Less than $130 CAD) if I was able to sell my current one. The biggest concerns I have right now are the dust (Ive tried to get a good filter but haven't yet and I know I need positive pressure) and the occasional rattle of the case fans. I would prefer to keep the noise to around the same levels I have now with all fans (minus GPU) at full speed. I've been reading through this thread and it has been enlightening however I'm still not sure on how to approach this upgrade/replacement.

For case selection Id prefer something more lightweight, 1 optical bay, minimum of 5 hdd and 1 ssd bay, lots of cooling options, good quality fan filters that are easy to clean, nice cable management and good ease of use. Currently I have my eyes on the CM690 III, Antec Performance One P280, Phanteks Enthoo and Fractal Arc Midi R2.

Thanks.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

curly...yes that's exactly what i meant..from the way your first illustration was it showed 3 front fans
the hds dont get that hot these days...
psu you can turn around so it draws air from the bottom of the case...best way any how..itll have its own air path then and not interfere with the rest of the systems airflo....


----------



## X-PREDATOR

nautical
cases_
phanteks enthoo pro & primo
corsair 750D
nzxt switch ( one of my favorites--great options and expansion..good airflo..lots of cable management)not to mention diff colours:thumb:
best home made dust filters _ Womens stockings...but not the thicker kind..the slim and skinny sort...just pull it over the fan and presto..fa dust filter without to much restriction:thumb:


----------



## doyll

Take a look at what you have.

A case only flows as much air as it's smallest quantity of intake or exhaust airflow..

5 intakes

1 exhaust.

That's easily 4 times as much area pushing air into case as there is area for air to get out of case.

So where is the air from the other 3-4 intakes supposed to exit the case?

Because if that air can't leave the case, it does not enter the case either. The fans are spinning but the air is not flowing into or out of the case.

What comes in must go out / what goes out must come in.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nauticle*
> 
> Hello Im trying to find the best option for upgrading the cooling of my rig for the least amount of money.
> 
> Specs:
> CPU: Intel Core i7-870 @ stock speeds w/ Noctua NH-D14 (2xNF-P14 push/pull. The NF-P12 that came with the cooler is a spare currently)
> Motherboard: Asus Maximus III Formula
> RAM: 2x2GB G.Skill DDR3-1333, 2x4GB G.Skill DDR3-1600 (oops)
> GPU: EVGA GeFroce GTX 570 1.2GB @ stock speeds
> PSU: Silverstone Strider 1000w
> Storage: 1 Samsung 840 Pro 128GB SSD, 5 HDDs.
> Case: Corsair 600T (all stock fans)
> AD900x Headphones (open)
> 
> I know I have limited options if I dont want to mod my case so I would be willing to buy a new one (Less than $130 CAD) if I was able to sell my current one. The biggest concerns I have right now are the dust (Ive tried to get a good filter but haven't yet and I know I need positive pressure) and the occasional rattle of the case fans. I would prefer to keep the noise to around the same levels I have now with all fans (minus GPU) at full speed. I've been reading through this thread and it has been enlightening however I'm still not sure on how to approach this upgrade/replacement.
> 
> For case selection Id prefer something more lightweight, 1 optical bay, minimum of 5 hdd and 1 ssd bay, lots of cooling options, good quality fan filters that are easy to clean, nice cable management and good ease of use. Currently I have my eyes on the CM690 III, Antec Performance One P280, Phanteks Enthoo and Fractal Arc Midi R2.
> 
> Thanks.


Enthoo Pro without a doubt.


----------



## Curleyyy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Take a look at what you have.
> 
> A case only flows as much air as it's smallest quantity of intake or exhaust airflow..
> 
> 5 intakes
> 
> 1 exhaust.
> 
> That's easily 4 times as much area pushing air into case as there is area for air to get out of case.
> 
> So where is the air from the other 3-4 intakes supposed to exit the case?
> 
> Because if that air can't leave the case, it does not enter the case either. The fans are spinning but the air is not flowing into or out of the case.
> 
> What comes in must go out / what goes out must come in.


well in that case I'll have to flip my radiator fans around to take air from in the case to out the case, when i had it that way my cpu was 10 degress hotter due to the heat my gpu puts out


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> well in that case I'll have to flip my radiator fans around to take air from in the case to out the case, when i had it that way my cpu was 10 degress hotter due to the heat my gpu puts out


That's not what I'm saying. Just pointing out that the case airflow is not optimal. Links in sig explain case airflow. You don't need equal number of exhaust fans, just equal vent area so the amount of air the fan can flow into case have a somewhere to flow out through.


----------



## Spork13

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> That's not what I'm saying. Just pointing out that the case airflow is not optimal. Links in sig explain case airflow. You don't need equal number of exhaust fans, just equal vent area so the amount of air the fan can flow into case have a somewhere to flow out through.


I've got a Phanteks Enthoo pro case, running 3 x 140mm intakes and 1 x 140mm exhaust.
There is mesh above the exhausat, and below it next to the GPU's. Almost the whole top is mesh.
Do you reckon thats enough exhaust (active and passive) or would you get a second 140 blowing hot air out the top / back?

nb: my exhaust (measured just behind the rear grille) is about 5-6c warmer than my room air / intake during light use.
Once those GPU's crank up it can get to 10-12c warmer than the air in front of the case.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spork13*
> 
> I've got a Phanteks Enthoo pro case, running 3 x 140mm intakes and 1 x 140mm exhaust.
> There is mesh above the exhausat, and below it next to the GPU's. Almost the whole top is mesh.
> Do you reckon thats enough exhaust (active and passive) or would you get a second 140 blowing hot air out the top / back?
> 
> nb: my exhaust (measured just behind the rear grille) is about 5-6c warmer than my room air / intake during light use.
> Once those GPU's crank up it can get to 10-12c warmer than the air in front of the case.


You are fine.
Phanteks cases have plenty of passive exhaust area as well as area that can be active or passive. Their fans also have good airflow with some resistance.

But measuring exhaust air temp really tells us very little. The most critical air temperatures in the system are the air temp into case and even more so, the air temp into CPU, GPU and over motherboard components.

The object of airflow is not how much we can move, but how well we can supply cool air to components. To do this we have remove the component's heated exhaust air without it contaminating their cool intake air and heating it up. This is explained in links in my sig .. as well as how to accomplish it.


----------



## Curleyyy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> That's not what I'm saying. Just pointing out that the case airflow is not optimal. Links in sig explain case airflow. You don't need equal number of exhaust fans, just equal vent area so the amount of air the fan can flow into case have a somewhere to flow out through.


I'm so confused man. You're saying we need the same surface area for air to go out as it's coming in that way airflow is nice and flowy, but you're saying that doesn't mean have 3 intakes and 3 exhausts? all my fans are 120 mm so having 3 120mm fans as intake and 3 120mm fans as exhaust the same surface area there is...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> I'm so confused man. You're saying we need the same surface area for air to go out as it's coming in that way airflow is nice and flowy, but you're saying that doesn't mean have 3 intakes and 3 exhausts? all my fans are 120 mm so having 3 120mm fans as intake and 3 120mm fans as exhaust the same surface area there is...


Have you read the links in my sig? They answer most of your questions.
The reason I say to read them first is so I don't have to keep posting the same thing over and over and over and over.
Vent area will flow air with or without fans. I prefer having more fans pushing air into case than exhausting because intake are filtered (mine all are) and catch the dust and leak the extra out other holes in case. If there are more exhaust than intake dusting air will be sucked into case though other holes. Add to this the airlfow spec of fans is not even close to what they are actually flowing when mounted in the case.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

curly..i hate to say it..but doyll is right..

the type of config hes saying is
80% positive pressure 10% passive(air escapes from any open slots..vents..gaps)
10% negative (exhuast fans)

meaning that if you have say 10 fans..
atleast 8should be intake and two spots exhuast..for me..thats always top and rear
or side and rear..
hope we were all of some help..you should read as many threads and research as possible and test out each config till you achieve the endgoal..its the only way youll understand and learn..test..read..test..and read some more...


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Enthoo Pro without a doubt.


How does that case compare to the lux ?
Are there any other cases you would recommend?
Also with the 120mm jetflo fans what sort of profile do you recommend ? since your the guru on these .
Thanks dave


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> How does that case compare to the lux ?
> Are there any other cases you would recommend?
> Also with the 120mm jetflo fans what sort of profile do you recommend ? since your the guru on these .
> Thanks dave


The luxe is basically the same thing plus extra space in the roof for mounting fans and the LED strip. Nothing else.

Not really at the moment, maybe the Rosewill Rise. I still have a NZXT Switch 810 that I love for cooling but it's a lot larger and also very appalling quality-wise

Profile? I would suggest a slightly more aggressive profile as they're not that noisy and it has almost all the airflow from 1400-2000rpm kinda like a Honda VTEC F20 engine







but of course, both are good in their ways


----------



## sugalumps

The pro is better than the luxe, I just sent back the entho luxe(becuase it arrived damaged) but it had terrible airflow in comparison to my nzxt 410(stock fans). The front panel they added completely destroys the front intake/airflow in comparison to the pro, I removed it and there was much more air being pulled in but it looked terrible as the screw mounts stick out.

It's kind of a loose loose, with the luxe you get better build quality especialy the side panel window as it sucks on the pro but you get terrible ariflow and with the pro you get better airflow but a crappy side panel and lesser build quality all round.


----------



## Nauticle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Enthoo Pro without a doubt.


How would I setup the best airflow with the included fans and the spare 120mm NF-P12 I have if I picked the Enthoo Pro? Also what makes the Enthoo Pro that much better over the other cases? Thanks.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

You mentioned 690 III from CM..thats a pretty good case too..good obtions for cooling too..

Dave why yo say 810 is bad? Im curious as i was gonna get one a while back


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> You mentioned 690 III from CM..thats a pretty good case too..good obtions for cooling too..
> 
> Dave why yo say 810 is bad? Im curious as i was gonna get one a while back


690 III is not too bad but it's also a not too bad case either because the design is quite ... antiquated.

It's a LONG list of problems.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1209048/official-nzxt-switch-810-thread/13450_50#post_22302613

It was a long tussle that got me a enthoo pro eventually.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nauticle*
> 
> How would I setup the best airflow with the included fans and the spare 120mm NF-P12 I have if I picked the Enthoo Pro? Also what makes the Enthoo Pro that much better over the other cases? Thanks.


The 200mm really isn't a bad fan it's quite good actually if anything the ONLY 200mm fan out there that actually performs as a fan.

NF-P12 probably is best used as a top intake with a FF123 filter.

First there's the EXCELLENT PSU cover and the modularity of the case you really can take out what you don't need and there's space for 2 SSD bays at the back of the motherboard and the quality is decent.
Also the airflow in this case is almost top notch.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

dave..yo jut saved me 2k i dont have...seemed like a solid case...glad you got sorted there in the end...im busy with a project here..feel free to check my thread out dave..im looking for all the help i can get,,,advise and parts wise...

especialy fans...i need to either repurpose or buy minimum 7 120mm fans:thumb:


----------



## doyll

Enthoo Pro and Enthoo Luxe share the same case. The difference is the front and top covers .. a a few extra features on Luxe like lights. Both cool about the same in stock configuration .. and are both among the better cooling cases on the market. Most all cases with stock fan setups have lots of improvement potential.








http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cases/2014/08/12/phanteks-enthoo-luxe-review/3

I've been told, but as I don't have a Luxe case can't verify, that the center part of front vent can be removed by taking 4 screws out.


----------



## nick779

Hey Dave,

Do you have any recommendations on extremely quiet fans?

I built a NAS in a Fractal Node 804 and it came with a few 1300rpm fans. theyre borderline annoying when running 24/7 and my Server mobo is lacking in the fan control department.

Normally with my builds I dont really care about noise and go with something like the AFB1212M/HH/VH, but this needs to be almost inaudible. Do you have any suggestions that are in the 1000rpm range?

Edit just found out this mobo does actually do PWM, so Ill have more options. Im looking for something that sits around 1000rpm at 50% duty cycle


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Hey Dave,
> 
> Do you have any recommendations on extremely quiet fans?
> 
> I built a NAS in a Fractal Node 804 and it came with a few 1300rpm fans. theyre borderline annoying when running 24/7 and my Server mobo is lacking in the fan control department.
> 
> Normally with my builds I dont really care about noise and go with something like the AFB1212M/HH/VH, but this needs to be almost inaudible. Do you have any suggestions that are in the 1000rpm range?
> 
> Edit just found out this mobo does actually do PWM, so Ill have more options. Im looking for something that sits around 1000rpm at 50% duty cycle


Maybe you can try finding an AFB1212L PWM these do 1500rpm at full speed so 1000rpm isn't too hard for them and the "quiet" cases are noisier when you go overboard with the component selection but as a server just get a hunkin' huge heatsink and that should do the job and never need to crank the fan up.

If you don't have one yet,
Something like a deepcool lucifer for 55$ off newegg. Or a phanteks PH-TC14PE which is 60$ after rebate now

IMO a server is something that is loaded often and should never need to spin up the CPU fan if you want silence unless you have a lack of space so you go for low profile heatsinks and really noisy fans. A stock cooler really won't cut it for even a gaming PC let alone a "quiet" server


----------



## DaveLT

Btw guys I've done some comparisons on awesome coolers from Deepcool on the site I write for. If you'd like to see it OCN and this thread to expand it into an ACTUAL heatsink guide by all means I will do so


----------



## X-PREDATOR

yes please do dave..you can go crazy..from the smallest to the tallest..


----------



## nick779

I have a few high rpm PWM fans im trying to repurpose for a htpc, and id like them to run at the lowest possible PWM %. Is there a mod I can do to the pwm signal line that would trick the fan into sitting at its minimum speed all of the time?


----------



## doyll

I haven't tried one of these yet, but they say it PWM control
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-1-8V-3V-5V-6V-12V-2A-Low-Voltage-Motor-Speed-New-Controller-PWM-1803B-/111531021357?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item19f7c4542d

Here is one with a digital readout of duty ratio
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Display-Switch-With-DC-6-30V-12V-24V-Max-8A-Motor-PWM-Speed-Controller-/390881828622?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item5b025f5f0e


----------



## Mopar63

Okay I have a flow question and want to see what everyone here things.

In a SFF if you use a cooler like the one pictured....



Are you better off using the fan to blow down or pull up.

Follow the logic for a moment, by blowing down you are often pulling air against the exhaust fan at the rear of the case and are blowing warm air from the CPU onto the motherboard. If you make the fan a pull up then you are pulling the cases intake air, over components, up through the heat sink and then exhaust right into the intake path of the rear exhaust fan thus moving the heat quickly out of the case.

From a pure logic point of view this would seem a better solution. I am curious if anyone has tested this? You would need to test not just CPU temp, also motherboard and internal case air as well.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> Okay I have a flow question and want to see what everyone here things.
> 
> In a SFF if you use a cooler like the one pictured....
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you better off using the fan to blow down or pull up.
> 
> Follow the logic for a moment, by blowing down you are often pulling air against the exhaust fan at the rear of the case and are blowing warm air from the CPU onto the motherboard. If you make the fan a pull up then you are pulling the cases intake air, over components, up through the heat sink and then exhaust right into the intake path of the rear exhaust fan thus moving the heat quickly out of the case.
> 
> From a pure logic point of view this would seem a better solution. I am curious if anyone has tested this? You would need to test not just CPU temp, also motherboard and internal case air as well.


Your logic is sound.









I've found most of the time pulling air away from motherboard results in lower temps, both for motherboard and CPU. Air pushing into cooler hits mobo, turn out, hits GPU, RAM, I/O housings, heatsinks and turns up beside cooler and fan, and when it gets above fan is sucked back into cooler .. around and around it goes!!

When I tested the AXP-100 on open bench with a 140mm fan flowing air across test station the CPU ran 5-8c cooler with cooler fan pulling rather than pushing.
Quote:


> *AXP-100 w/ TY-100 pushing in
> Tested with i7 920 stock (130w CPU)
> Handbrake @ realtime
> 
> Room ambient . Idle CPU; rpm; Cooler Exhaust. . 100% CPU; rpm; Cooler Exhaust . mobo; NB; Cooler intake*
> 21.5c . . . . . . . . . 33-34-35-31c 2400rpm 28.0c . . 67-68-67-66c 2400rpm . 39.5c . . 36c . . 51c
> 22.0c . . . . . . . . . 33-34-35-31c 2250rpm 28.0c . . 68-68-69-67c 2250rpm . 39.5c . . 36c . . 51c . . 30.0c
> 22.5c . . . . . . . . . 36-35-39-33c 2000rpm 30.0c . . 69-70-70-69c 2000rpm . 40.0c . . 39c . . 51c
> 22.5c . . . . . . . . . 35-34-38-33c 1750rpm 29.5c . . 72-73-73-71c 1750rpm . 43.0c . . 40c . . 54c
> 22.5c . . . . . . . . ; 35-35-39-34c 1500rpm 30.0c . . 76-78-77-75c 1500rpm . 47.0c . . 40c . . 57c
> 23.0c . . . . . . . . . 37-36-41-36c 1200rpm 31.0c; 39c & 46c mobo & NB
> 2400rpm is maximum rpm mounted pushing in
> *Temperature of air 30mm above TY-100*
> Intake air is much warmer than room ambient.. like 8c warmer!.
> 
> *AXP-100 w/ TY-100 pulling out
> Tested with i7 920 stock (130w CPU)
> Handbrake @ realtime
> 
> Room ambient . Idle CPU; rpm; Cooler Exhaust. . 100% CPU; rpm; Cooler Exhaust . mobo; NB; Cooler intake*
> 21.5c . . . . . . . . 32-31-35-31c 2450rpm 26.0c . . 62-62-63-61c 2450rpm . 33.5c . . 34c . . 46c
> 21.5c . . . . . . . . 33-31-35-31c 2250rpm 25.5c . . 63-64-65-63c 2250rpm . 34.5c . . 37c . . 45c
> 21.5c . . . . . . . . 33-32-37-33c 2000rpm 30.0c . . 64-65-65-64c 2000rpm . 35.5c . . 34c . . 48c
> 21.5c . . . . . . . . 35-34-39-34c 1750rpm 28.5c . . 66-67-66-65c 1750rpm . 37.5c . . 35c . . 50c
> 21.5c . . . . . . . . 34-33-38-32c 1500rpm 27.0c . . 69-70-70-69c 1500rpm . 39.5c . . 34c . . 51c
> 21.0c . . . . . . . . 35-34-38-33c 1200rpm 28.0c; 34c & 47c mobo & NB
> *I neglected to put a probe under cooler, sorry.
> . 2450rpm is maximum rpm mounted pulling out*
> 
> Running TY-100 pushing in and find the heat difference is because of air temperature over cooler / fan intake. Running at 2400rpm the air 30mm above AXP-100 is 28.5c with 22c ambient. That's with a TY-140 40cm away and 15cm above work top blowing 22c ambient over test setup. It also shows in the exhaust temp readings with TY-100 pushing into cooler.


Now when testing or setting up a new system I always monitor the cooler intake air temp and adjust / change fans (case & cooler) to supply cool air instead of preheated air.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I haven't tried one of these yet, but they say it PWM control
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-1-8V-3V-5V-6V-12V-2A-Low-Voltage-Motor-Speed-New-Controller-PWM-1803B-/111531021357?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item19f7c4542d
> 
> Here is one with a digital readout of duty ratio
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Display-Switch-With-DC-6-30V-12V-24V-Max-8A-Motor-PWM-Speed-Controller-/390881828622?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item5b025f5f0e


so theres no like hard mod I could do like throw on a diode/ or capacitor to the pwm line?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> so theres no like hard mod I could do like throw on a diode/ or capacitor to the pwm line?


the 4th pin is a signal lead. Trying to change the signal to be 0% up to a certain temp and then ramp up would not be easy.
Changing the resistance only weakens the signal.
You could try lowering the 12v power and see if fan will run with less voltage. I've never tried it but 8-9v instead of 12v pulses would make fan run slower .. if it even works.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

If you want full control just get a top notch controller that can actualy turn the fan off..

If any ones interested drop by and check my current creation in the making..did a lot of catching up today..


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> the 4th pin is a signal lead. Trying to change the signal to be 0% up to a certain temp and then ramp up would not be easy.
> Changing the resistance only weakens the signal.
> You could try lowering the 12v power and see if fan will run with less voltage. I've never tried it but 8-9v instead of 12v pulses would make fan run slower .. if it even works.


Honestly, I dont want any control with them. I want them to sit at the minimum PWM speed constantly regardless of what the pwm signal from the mobo is telling the fan to run.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Honestly, I dont want any control with them. I want them to sit at the minimum PWM speed constantly regardless of what the pwm signal from the mobo is telling the fan to run.


My first suggestiion should allow you to set them at the lowest possible speed they will run.


----------



## Luke Cool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Honestly, I dont want any control with them. I want them to sit at the minimum PWM speed constantly regardless of what the pwm signal from the mobo is telling the fan to run.


I don't understand; You say you don't want any control, Then you say you want them to sit at the minimum PWM speed.
If you are using minimum PWM speed, you are controlling the fan speed. Without control, PWM fans run at full speed. But that's the tip of the iceberg, I don't understand your philosophy.
You buy a fan that is made to be thermostatically controlled, then you use this control feather to turn it into a slow fan that will not react to protect the computer from over heating.
Why not just buy slow cheap fans to start with. That way you can use the money you save to help replace the parts that go bad when you burn up your computer.

Mine is set to run quietly (50%), but a hurricane goes through my CPU cooler if it reaches 150 degrees Fahrenheit. My CPU fan is 38x120mm with 135cfm at max speed. Each time your CPU overheats, this takes at minimum, few months of its life away. The only time I ever hear the fan is when I run a CPU burn-in program.


----------



## nick779

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luke Cool*
> 
> I don't understand; You say you don't wont any control, Then you say you want them to sit at the minimum PWM speed.
> If you are using minimum PWM speed, you are controlling the fan speed. But that's the tip of the iceberg, I don't understand your philosophy.
> You buy a fan that is made to be thermostatically controlled, then you use this control feather to turn it into a slow fan that will not react to protect the computer from over heating.
> Why not just buy slow cheap fans to start with. That way you can use the money you save to help replace the bad parts when you burn up your computer.


I had some high speed fans I bought a while ago and wanted to use them in a HTPC. They kept throttling up every minute because the cpu temp was "spiking" to 40c for a second when a script runs every minute, and the mobo I was using didnt have a manually adjustable curve.

Regardless, I came across some new old stock 800rpm GTs and just swapped them in.


----------



## sav4

So in your opinions would I gain much cooling benefit going from a storm scout 2 to a enthoo pro ?
I'm running a air cooler and a none ref gpu
Also anyone with the pro able to measure distance from end of the case to the first bottom fan position so I can see if I can put 2 fans in the bottom with my bulky psu
Thanks


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> So in your opinions would I gain much cooling benefit going from a storm scout 2 to a enthoo pro ?
> I'm running a air cooler and a none ref gpu
> Also anyone with the pro able to measure distance from end of the case to the first bottom fan position so I can see if I can put 2 fans in the bottom with my bulky psu
> Thanks


How is your Scout setup now? You might find the cooling links in my sig helpful.
Probably a little better. But a few simple mods to your Scout would make it quite good.
Removing the HDD cage with 2x front intakes there would make a big difference.
Adding an intake in the 5.25" bays also gives better airflow to CPU cooler.
Bottom intake with case raised so there is 35-45mm bottom clearance for good airflow to bottom fans
Remove all unused PCIe slot covers from the back to improve exhaust airflow.
A few good case fans and possibly setting them up with automatic control using motherboard and GPU temps would probably make a world of difference.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> How is your Scout setup now? You might find the cooling links in my sig helpful.
> Probably a little better. But a few simple mods to your Scout would make it quite good.
> Removing the HDD cage with 2x front intakes there would make a big difference.
> Adding an intake in the 5.25" bays also gives better airflow to CPU cooler.
> Bottom intake with case raised so there is 35-45mm bottom clearance for good airflow to bottom fans
> Remove all unused PCIe slot covers from the back to improve exhaust airflow.
> A few good case fans and possibly setting them up with automatic control using motherboard and GPU temps would probably make a world of difference.


I have removed both middle h/d cages . I have 2 jetflo 120 in the front as intakes rear jetflo side jetflo exh and top exh sickle flow didn't notice a diff when it was intake.
No room in the bottom for a 120 fan psu is to big


----------



## sav4

I did read your articles just couldn't find a solution going to swap some fans around this weekend and try 2 frt intakes 2 side intakes 1 rear and top exh unless u have any ideas if I can get my pic to post u will see my layout


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> I did read your articles just couldn't find a solution going to swap some fans around this weekend and try 2 frt intakes 2 side intakes 1 rear and top exh unless u have any ideas if I can get my pic to post u will see my layout


To really be able to help I need to know the room temp, component temps and cooler intake air temps.
The component intake air temp andcomponent temp shows us how well the cooler is working.
The room temp and cooler intake temp shows us how well the case is supplying cool air to component cooler.


----------



## sav4

Ambient temps 24deg c cpu idle temp 30 load 70
Gpu idle 28 load 71-75
I don't have temp sensors in my case to measure air intake temps but as soon as the load is stopped temps drop rapidly . I think air turbulence is my issue and my case setup can't get the heat out quick enough


----------



## Spork13

One of my (not very old) fans has developed a rattling noise @ certain RPM. I guess the bearing is stuffed.
It is mounted horizontally, I think I read somewher thasm most fans are happier vertical?
What sort of fan, or fan bearing, should I be looking for to run horizontally? 140mm, pref PWM. Needs to be quiet / silent at lower speeds, and capable of moving lots of air at higher speeds.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Ambient temps 24deg c cpu idle temp 30 load 70
> Gpu idle 28 load 71-75
> I don't have temp sensors in my case to measure air intake temps but as soon as the load is stopped temps drop rapidly . I think air turbulence is my issue and my case setup can't get the heat out quick enough


Those temps are not too bad.
Especially if temps inside of case are5-10c warmer extended load runs.
How long does it take for system to reach maximum temps under full load?
If more than 3-4minutes, your case is most likely not exhausting all of the coolers' heated exhaust and cooler intake airflow is being heated up by it's own heated exhaust.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Those temps are not too bad.
> Especially if temps inside of case are5-10c warmer extended load runs.
> How long does it take for system to reach maximum temps under full load?
> If more than 3-4minutes, your case is most likely not exhausting all of the coolers' heated exhaust and cooler intake airflow is being heated up by it's own heated exhaust.[/quote
> 
> Temps take a max of a minute to peak then if say a bench mark is run it continues to rise til I shut the bench down around 3 runs of IBT as it nears 90 .
> I have dropped my oc down to get the previous temps in normal use ]


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Those temps are not too bad.
> Especially if temps inside of case are5-10c warmer extended load runs.
> How long does it take for system to reach maximum temps under full load?
> If more than 3-4minutes, your case is most likely not exhausting all of the coolers' heated exhaust and cooler intake airflow is being heated up by it's own heated exhaust.
> 
> 
> 
> Temps take a max of a minute to peak then if say a bench mark is run it continues to rise til I shut the bench down around 3 runs of IBT as it nears 90 .
> I have dropped my oc down to get the previous temps in normal use ]
Click to expand...

So they are not peaking in a minute, but continue to rise until you shut down the test.

Like I said:
Case air is increasing in temperature.

Only other possible reason is coolers are not capable of keeping component cool.
My money is on case air is getting progressively warmer.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> So they are not peaking in a minute, but continue to rise until you shut down the test.
> 
> Like I said:
> Case air is increasing in temperature.
> 
> Only other possible reason is coolers are not capable of keeping component cool.
> My money is on case air is getting progressively warmer.


So should I add more exhausts or is it a limitation of my case ?


----------



## doyll

I commented on your case and made suggestions in first post to you.


----------



## Mopar63

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nick779*
> 
> Honestly, I dont want any control with them. I want them to sit at the minimum PWM speed constantly regardless of what the pwm signal from the mobo is telling the fan to run.


If this is how you intend to use the fans then you bought the wrong ones. You could have bought less expensive 3 pin fans and dropped the voltage. However you can use your idea and tweak it to make the most of the PWM fans you have. Many motherboards will allow custom fan curves for PWM headers. Get a PWM splitter that will allow you to connect all the fan. The put a custom curve in where you keep the fans at minimum speed until set temp is reached and then begin to ramp up.

This allows you to keep the minimal speed most of the time and the quiet operation while at the same time using the abilities of the PWM to protect the system if heat builds to high.

Now for a quick question, has anyone used the Deadsilent fans yet?



These look really cool and I am wondering about using them. Also how does the Enermax TB Vegas and TB Apolloish compare as well.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> If this is how you intend to use the fans then you bought the wrong ones. You could have bought less expensive 3 pin fans and dropped the voltage. However you can use your idea and tweak it to make the most of the PWM fans you have. Many motherboards will allow custom fan curves for PWM headers. Get a PWM splitter that will allow you to connect all the fan. The put a custom curve in where you keep the fans at minimum speed until set temp is reached and then begin to ramp up.
> 
> This allows you to keep the minimal speed most of the time and the quiet operation while at the same time using the abilities of the PWM to protect the system if heat builds to high.
> 
> Now for a quick question, has anyone used the Deadsilent fans yet?
> 
> 
> 
> These look really cool and I am wondering about using them. Also how does the Enermax TB Vegas and TB Apolloish compare as well.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


I asked how the DS is on this thread months ago and was told it is rubbish , not even close to true , this is an excellent fan , I have since asked everyone on the OCN and elsewhere that i come across , about this fan , is it quiet ? , does it cool well ? does it have good static pressure for a 140 mm , and every time without failure , everyone that owns this fan loves it ! , they love all aspects of its performance.

The only negative thing about this fan is the coloured versions have led's that can not be turned off , they are always on , and they do dim with the voltage input , this is something i am not happy about and will either take the time to re wire them and switch them , or i will remove them , this may not bother a lot of people , but lighting is my main theme in my build , so i want full control of lighting , where and when i want it.

It also depends what you want from a fan , do you want cooling at any cost of noise , and dont mind a 7500 RPM jet turbine that starts to scream at 1/4 of its speed let alone at full speed , but of course it's cooling is awesome ? , or does aesthetics mean everything ? or maybe it has to be quiet at all cost ?

The DS does everything it needs to do and it does it very well indeed , I only have one so far that i have not used yet , but i have done my own very basic testing , just merely holding a 140 mm DS up against me RX 360 Rad and feeling the airflow on my hands and face , it pushes plenty of air through the radiator, and very windy and cool on the face , this is very scientific analysis and an effective way of crunching data







but it works , and it works better than my Corsair SP 120 QE , which also works fine.

So for me personally good fair performance , quiet and great aesthetics are what i want from my fans , this is why i will soon have all DS fans , i also have the EX 280 rad so i will have mostly 140 mm versions , in retrospect i would have gone for a EX 420 up top instead of a RX 360 , and had all 140 mm fans now i know how good these fans are.


----------



## rolldog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> I asked how the DS is on this thread months ago and was told it is rubbish , not even close to true , this is an excellent fan , I have since asked everyone on the OCN and elsewhere that i come across , about this fan , is it quiet ? , does it cool well ? does it have good static pressure for a 140 mm , and every time without failure , everyone that owns this fan loves it ! , they love all aspects of its performance.
> 
> The only negative thing about this fan is the coloured versions have led's that can not be turned off , they are always on , and they do dim with the voltage input , this is something i am not happy about and will either take the time to re wire them and switch them , or i will remove them , this may not bother a lot of people , but lighting is my main theme in my build , so i want full control of lighting , where and when i want it.
> 
> It also depends what you want from a fan , do you want cooling at any cost of noise , and dont mind a 7500 RPM jet turbine that starts to scream at 1/4 of its speed let alone at full speed , but of course it's cooling is awesome ? , or does aesthetics mean everything ? or maybe it has to be quiet at all cost ?
> 
> The DS does everything it needs to do and it does it very well indeed , I only have one so far that i have not used yet , but i have done my own very basic testing , just merely holding a 140 mm DS up against me RX 360 Rad and feeling the airflow on my hands and face , it pushes plenty of air through the radiator, and very windy and cool on the face , this is very scientific analysis and an effective way of crunching data
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but it works , and it works better than my Corsair SP 120 QE , which also works fine.
> 
> So for me personally good fair performance , quiet and great aesthetics are what i want from my fans , this is why i will soon have all DS fans , i also have the EX 280 rad so i will have mostly 140 mm versions , in retrospect i would have gone for a EX 420 up top instead of a RX 360 , and had all 140 mm fans now i know how good these fans are.


Thanks for the info. I just upgraded my MB, CPU, and memory, but my MB is a different color from my old one. Since I'm so anal, I'm changing my entire color scheme to match (my new MB is black and white). So, I've been looking to replace my green fans with either white or black and white fans with white LEDs. I ran across these fans, and the look of them really grabbed my attention so I've been trying to find someone who has them to find out how they perform. I think you just answered my question. Any ideas who has the best price on them and if they make different sizes?


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rolldog*
> 
> Thanks for the info. I just upgraded my MB, CPU, and memory, but my MB is a different color from my old one. Since I'm so anal, I'm changing my entire color scheme to match (my new MB is black and white). So, I've been looking to replace my green fans with either white or black and white fans with white LEDs. I ran across these fans, and the look of them really grabbed my attention so I've been trying to find someone who has them to find out how they perform. I think you just answered my question. Any ideas who has the best price on them and if they make different sizes?


They make 140 , 120 mm , blue , red , black and white

Frozen : http://www.frozencpu.com/search.html?mv_profile=keyword_search&mv_session_id=yccB7yMn&searchspec=aerocool+ds+140&go.x=0&go.y=0
Also search Aerocool DS 120 at Frozencpu they have them too $ 21.99 for a 140 mm

I personally have had only one bussiness dealing with Performance PC's , and it was extremely bad ! , they are the worst people i have dealt with, so dont recommend them although they stock them too.

And Amazon : http://www.amazon.com/AeroCool-Cooling-DS-140mm-White/dp/B00JRTM7N8 $19.99 for a 140 mm , also do a search there and you will get their 120 mm too

And if you do a search in Google for the Areocool DS 140 or 120 and see if anyone else stocks them , and chck if the black and white version has led's im pretty sure that one doesnt.


----------



## miklkit

Superbiiz has them for the same price as Amazon. I have nothing but good things to say about that store.
http://www.superbiiz.com/query.php?categry=139&name=Case-Fans&brand=AeroCool


----------



## benbenkr

So, Silverstone FQ141 and FQ121, anyone has any experience with them?


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I commented on your case and made suggestions in first post to you.


I have removed unused PCI slots, top h/d cage no room to fit a bottom or drive bay fan.
Temps are still very similar.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> I have removed unused PCI slots, top h/d cage no room to fit a bottom or drive bay fan.
> Temps are still very similar.


Check out the first link in my sig. The case cooling tutorial might be helpful. Without knowing what the air temp going into cooler it is hard to say what to try next. Once we know if cooler intake air temp is less than 5c above room temp, we will know it's not an air temperature problem. Then we know it's the cooler or it's mounting .. or too much CPU voltage .. or .. or ..


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mopar63*
> 
> If this is how you intend to use the fans then you bought the wrong ones. You could have bought less expensive 3 pin fans and dropped the voltage. However you can use your idea and tweak it to make the most of the PWM fans you have. Many motherboards will allow custom fan curves for PWM headers. Get a PWM splitter that will allow you to connect all the fan. The put a custom curve in where you keep the fans at minimum speed until set temp is reached and then begin to ramp up.
> 
> This allows you to keep the minimal speed most of the time and the quiet operation while at the same time using the abilities of the PWM to protect the system if heat builds to high.
> 
> Now for a quick question, has anyone used the Deadsilent fans yet?
> 
> 
> 
> These look really cool and I am wondering about using them. Also how does the Enermax TB Vegas and TB Apolloish compare as well.


I still maintain they are garbage.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benbenkr*
> 
> So, Silverstone FQ141 and FQ121, anyone has any experience with them?


They are actually good fans


----------



## benbenkr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They are actually good fans


How good, is... good?


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I still maintain they are garbage.
> They are actually good fans


If i was air cooling id most likely use a more powerful fan too , but i just want a gentle air flow through my rads at a quiet sound level and the DS will do that easily at half speed


----------



## mus1mus

If you have enough rad space, fan speed and performance can be sacrificed.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> If i was air cooling id most likely use a more powerful fan too , but i just want a gentle air flow through my rads at a quiet sound level and the DS will do that easily at half speed


Of which is garbage to begin with.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benbenkr*
> 
> How good, is... good?


I would take the FW122 over the FQ though.

These fans look really interesting and is cheap.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UF1H80571
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UF2E16711

provided it's not overrated.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Of which is garbage to begin with.
> I would take the FW122 over the FQ though.
> 
> These fans look really interesting and is cheap.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UF1H80571
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UF2E16711
> 
> provided it's not overrated.


It depends on what you want from a fan , and if you are opinionated and confrontational or not , you see to me the definition of garbage would be a fan that screams like a turbine from a jet engine and talking to someone like you choose to , that is garbage !

You bring your thread on air cooling down to a level that belittles it and makes it relatively useless for advise to anyone , because if its not dave's fan then its garbage , no tactful or intelligent feed back , just trashing of anyones opinion that is not yours.

And for the record i will state again , i have asked every OCN user that i have seen that has the fan , and others from other sites , and %100 good feedback of both performance and noise level and that is at least 15 people , so i draw my conclusions from my own experience and all the other happy DS owners.

So to anyone Wanting to know about the Aerocool DS fans they are very good in all aspects for a fan, unless you want the highest of airflow aesthetics has no importance , and you are not bothered by noise or would just like the option to crank a fan to high RPM for max cooling then dont choose the DS listen to recommendations for such a fan.

When it comes down to it it is all to do with RPM and what you want from a fan 7500 RPM is awesome if thats what smokes your tyres , rocks your socks.


----------



## doyll

I'm using the Cryorig fans. RPM to RPM they are not as quiet as some, but have higher pressure so can run slower and still move a good amount of air.

This is the trade off. More pressure = more noise. But more pressure means lower RPM will deliver same amount of air as lower pressure fan at higher RPM .. making CFM at dBA with resistance about the same. It's a P-Q curve thing.

Example:
Kool-38HBK rated 135cfm & 4.064mm H2O and San Ace H1101 is rated 128cfm & 4.714mm H2O.
But San Ace H1101 flows 93.6cfm while Kool-38HBK flows 75.3cfm at same 1.778mm H2O.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I'm using the Cryorig fans. RPM to RPM they are not as quiet as some, but have higher pressure so can run slower and still move a good amount of air.
> 
> This is the trade off. More pressure = more noise. But more pressure means lower RPM will deliver same amount of air as lower pressure fan at higher RPM .. making CFM at dBA with resistance about the same. It's a P-Q curve thing.


Thanks for the constructive feedback , yeah its pretty much how iv always seen it , its not just RPM , as stated in last post , i knew that , just keeping it pointed and uncomplicated , there is always in most things in life a compromise , nothing is perfect , so like you say Static pressure being another aspect vs noise and perfomance, or RPM vs noise , or fan blade tip design , and to cut it short all the other things that make a good fan , Material , bearings , housing , size , manufacturer , preference , aesthetics , requirement , smell and taste , lol ok just kidding on last 2 , anyway , I fully understand what a fan is , and an airplane or jet , and silence or noise , and quite frankly i know i am an amateur compared to you guys , but i do know what is what and what the compromises are , the trade offs , and what i want from a fan and appreciate what others are expecting or are asking from a fan.

What makes the OCN so damn good is to discuss , agree or disagree , to keep an open mind and to learn from each other and be humble , and to have reason and supportive facts behind opinion and points of view ,my previous post is first time i have directly challenged a post so pointedly , i would not have bothered but it is so wrong , not even close to fact , just a n abrasive non constructive answer , that for once IMO requires a response , if the DS was Garbage then just 1 owner would say so , but not one has , that speaks volumes about what an awesome fan it is for what us users of the fan want , which speaking for myself is : Quiet , more than adequate airflow and cooling and Aesthetics , yes this was important to me or i would have chosen some other fan quite frankly, but if you want a great all rounder and a great looking fan then DS is it ! , it smokes my tyres.


----------



## doyll

@ Bertovzki
I edited my post with a better example of performance difference. Both are from Martin's Liquid Lab. Martin has done lots of testing of fans on radiators to show their performance.
http://martinsliquidlab.org/


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @ Bertovzki
> I edited my post with a better example of performance difference. Both are from Martin's Liquid Lab. Martin has done lots of testing of fans on radiators to show their performance.
> http://martinsliquidlab.org/


Yes thanks man , appreciate your time to do so , however i already posed that to Steezy today in a PM and some other links , i think from linusTechTips from memorry.

Yes that is a particularly good graph , and if i do decide my DS are indeed garbage after more extensive testing and personal use , and fail to do the job , especially when i do get a second GPU , then i will eat humble pie and i will invest in something you guys all use , either way that is a good graph , and a great source too !

A random e.g , my old man has a duel core and 1 x HD 7770 and in 24c ambient under prime 95 stress will only get 50 CPU , GPU temps with one 120 Rad and one very obscure 120 mm fan , he cares nothing for fans , aesthetics.

Also he made his own case from scratch , own CPU and GPU blocks and heat sinks for VRAM's a punny little obscure pump , custom made in series manifold ,and anti freeze in a system that has not been cleaned for several years with plasticizer in it , and it works a treat









That said , i have disagreements over him being able to run a faster quad and hotter GPU with it , and it pisses him off when i mention it , but the point is , that is what a 70 year old man can achieve in the face of all the hair splitting and debate.
I like him , am of the opinion that great un obscured case airflow and enough rad surface and a reasonable fan set is very good, i cant hear the old mans 1 fan and never have , it barely moves but everything works perfect.

I do realize that this is not ok for me , have a look at my 750D thread album in my profile if you are interested in what i am doing , and my choices , i will have the most heavily modified 750D yet id say , and im not finished cutting metal out , i will be cutting the bottom and back fan grills out too yet , note the front radiator mod i did , i cut all of the front of my case out ! , i have zero obstruction of air flow , i have 3 front doors , i will do a vent mod on one too , i opted for a 140 mm fan and rad up front to make full use of the 140 mm opening.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@bert...3cheers to you for sticking to your believes bro...if i remember correctly..i even pm you to mention that even if others dont likem..sp120's wouldve served you well also..i know..they have a few hiccups..show me a fan that doesnt..but thats were we all make mistakes..instead of us all bickering and critisizing something we should be doing what you said...investigate..test...help..advise..and give feedback to each items respective oem..how else are they to know about the issues..i regularly just read thru forums wether im a participent or not and then contact that oem to point them out the issue at hand...and i may not get a response always..but i know i do my bit to help out then...

i openly apologise for trying to sway you away from your DS fan choice..my suggestion was based on testing out one in a resellers store and was very dissapointed..because they only had the one ds and a lot of the sharkblades..(theyre very flimsy..to much flex)

if i could get my hands on a set of ds fans i would gladly test them out...

i like you attitude..3cheers for sticking it to the man....

give a link to your build/mod..a 750d?


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @bert...3cheers to you for sticking to your believes bro...if i remember correctly..i even pm you to mention that even if others dont likem..sp120's wouldve served you well also..i know..they have a few hiccups..show me a fan that doesnt..but thats were we all make mistakes..instead of us all bickering and critisizing something we should be doing what you said...investigate..test...help..advise..and give feedback to each items respective oem..how else are they to know about the issues..i regularly just read thru forums wether im a participent or not and then contact that oem to point them out the issue at hand...and i may not get a response always..but i know i do my bit to help out then...
> 
> i openly apologise for trying to sway you away from your DS fan choice..my suggestion was based on testing out one in a resellers store and was very dissapointed..because they only had the one ds and a lot of the sharkblades..(theyre very flimsy..to much flex)
> 
> if i could get my hands on a set of ds fans i would gladly test them out...
> 
> i like you attitude..3cheers for sticking it to the man....
> 
> give a link to your build/mod..a 750d?


Nothing wrong at all with trying to sway someone from a product you dont think is a good product , or choice , on the contrary , its fully appreciated , its just the way it is said , there are ways to say things or communicate , maybe i should have let it go , but i didnt feel like doing that at the time.

The only reason i have stuck to my thoughts are because i already had one a long time back , and have compared it to my SP 120 QE as the DS is better , and also because i started to ask all the other users , and when the whole lot got back to me with %100 good feedback , well that was good enough for me , if just one had replied with a NO they are not good then i would hesitate , but i have not found one person to say that , that actually own them and has a rig full of them.

Re build log , yes that will definitely e on the way i have a full log so far of my build , but have not posted a log yet because i want to get it to the next stage and i will be posting then , the reasoning is i dont want to start a build log too early and have it cluttered with responses and replies , which is fully welcome , but i will construct a detailed un-obstructed log up to point of bending my rigid tube first , which will be in next 2-3 weeks , as i now have to wait for my new MoBo


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Man i would love to try out rigid tubing..but no one sells it here...id go totaly nuts with all weird designs..like try to make a skull shaped loop or some wacko idea...im in loove..with thise who get those neet straight lines & 90° bends so perfectly done..im not fond of tgings running all over the place..heck i even tried finding these tubes last year for my gpu aio mod.but couldnt..just link me to your current log..i needs to see it...


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Man i would love to try out rigid tubing..but no one sells it here...id go totaly nuts with all weird designs..like try to make a skull shaped loop or some wacko idea...im in loove..with thise who get those neet straight lines & 90° bends so perfectly done..im not fond of tgings running all over the place..heck i even tried finding these tubes last year for my gpu aio mod.but couldnt..just link me to your current log..i needs to see it...


Kill PM you som pics and links , so to keep this thread on topic .


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Pm recieved bro thankx..nice builds and cool ideas from you..small tip...why so serious? Chillax dude..have fun


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Pm recieved bro thankx..nice builds and cool ideas from you..small tip...why so serious? Chillax dude..have fun


Not sure why you say that , i am a very chilled dude usually , except my only ever response in previous posts to dave , usually i ignor such blunt replys , it may be something to do with my age if i seem serious 45 could be something to do with it lol


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Dude..i was making a joke..but a poker faced joke to make it look like i was serious..heck i praised you for your challenge...ive done it..others have also said same things you did..and its unfortunately true..i believe also like you ..that one cant have a guide thread but be disrespectfull and negative towards each persons ???'s and options if their not to your liking..were all here to guide and get help and most if all importance -have fun in a respectfull manner..

Now back to fans..has any 1 here ever stripped a welding machine apart just to get to that big bad fan cooling it..ive had my eyes on a few a few times and they move an insane amount of air whilest being near doa


----------



## pshootr

I am looking at 140mm case fans for my Phanteks Luxe case, and am concidering these fans http://www.coolerguys.com/840556101055.html. The price is rite, and they are PWM. Anyone ever use these?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Their not too shabby..another member i recently talked to in the X predator case club has his hole rig setup with the bitfenix specter pro versions..he was morecthan happy


----------



## miklkit

What is the air flow in cfm for the Cryorig fans? You will want more case air flow than that by a good margin. Those Bitfinex fans don't seem to move much air by looking at their stats.


----------



## pshootr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> What is the air flow in cfm for the Cryorig fans? You will want more case air flow than that by a good margin. Those Bitfinex fans don't seem to move much air by looking at their stats.


Ya the CFM is a trade off for the static pressure on that model.

Air Flow (CFM) 56.1 CFM
Noise (dB-A) 24.2 dB(A)
Air Pressure (mmH2O) 2.14 mmH2O

I figured with the filters on the Luxe, I might be better off with some SP fans. I believe Phanteks ships the cases with SP fans for this reason. I wonder if I am going in the rite direction here, or if I should be looking at CFM instead of SP?

Please help guys, I need some 140mm fans for my Luxe that move a lot of air but wont break the bank. I'm getting tired of waiting to order. And I cant seem to pick a fan. Preferably PWM, but I guess 3 pin should be ok as long as I hook them up to the Phanteks hub.

Thanks


----------



## miklkit

I too am impaled on the horns of a dilemma.









I'm looking for 120mm fans and can not decide between GTs or the DS fans. What I know is that with the 4 case fans I have (Aerocool Sharks) when the 130cfm cpu cooler fans spool up it turns into a negative pressure case as in long stress tests it runs hotter than in short stress tests.

I am leaning towards the high flow DS although most people say the high pressure GTs are the way to go. The front of my case consists of perforated metal backed by foam.

There are no 140 GTs that I know of so you might be better off with the Bitfenix fans to go with the Cryorig fans. What do the experts say?


----------



## pshootr

CRYORIG XF140 140mm PWM Sytem Fan

700 - 1300 RPM 76 CFM
HPLN Bearing
23 dBA

I use 3 of them on the cooler. I am thinking of getting one of these though because the rear fan is covering up my VRM-sink, and restricting airflow to it, and possibly even insulating heat..

In that case I could use one of the current fans for a case fan.

Although I thought about cutting one side off of the rear fans frame so the fins will actually move air in front of the VRM. Not sure how well that would work, but it would have to better than the frame sitting basically against the VRM-sink.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> *Myths*
> 
> 200mm/230mm fans are superior to 2x120/4x120 fans. Oh god.
> 
> ALL 200mm fans have so weak *static pressure* that by the time they flow through a filter their airflow is garbage
> Case in point, i have a filtered front panel, I wouldn't imagine anyone who would buy a case without a filtered front panel
> Static pressure is a rating of how much pressure they can generate while not producing any airflow, in simple terms, basically how much it can overcome a filter.
> For even a "high airflow" filter the 200mm fans are barely capable of any airflow
> 
> I use Delta AFB1212H fans up front and output collapses to easily 3/4 the rated airflow at full RPM, *how much CFM do you think a crummy 0.6mmH2O 200mm fan is going to put out*?
> And also a lot of you who are running 200mm fans you don't get better temps you just get larger spread much less airflow or less static pressure


i'd like a clarification on this, 200mm might not have more pressure than 120mm, but the air velocity per surface area is much lower.
filter constrictions becomes more prevalent at higher air velocities, its like covering your mouth with a piece of cloth.
breath slow and it doesn't feel like you have a cloth over your mouth, but breath hard and the cloth becomes obnoxious.

its the same with 200mm vs 120mm, say they both have 100CFM, but 200mm has a 31,416mm surface area against 11,310mm of 120mm.
that means its 0.00318CFM per square mm for 200mm, while its 0.00884CFM per square mm for 120mm or nearly 3times more air velocity than 200mm.

if what i'm saying has any truth in it, then it should be better to use large diameter fan for flushing heat off from an area.
since 200mm has a larger flood area than 120mm, and in theory 200mm should provide a much more consistent airflow.

in areas like GPU's with axial fans tends to dump large amounts of heated air back inside the case.
so if you can flush that hot air off that large area it should minimize hot-air recycling of GPUs.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@dudes for fan choices
140mm noctua ppc industrials are the way to go for good optimized fans with pwm functionality

@bitfenix dude...
The normal specters are ok to use as normal open unrestricted airflo fans..in exhaust or top/side fans..
If you must use bitfenix..get the specter pro pwm rather..theyve got those funky looking airflo direction grills on the to aid in focused air..

200mm..it doesnt always pan out to be better..in a case/situation were the system is running hot or poorly setup..id choose a 200mm only as an option when theres no restriction involved..
But rather go for 2*120/140mm..itll move the airflo quicker and more focused vs 200 which has a larger dead spot..


----------



## epic1337

but aren't all fans scattered? exhaust side isn't focused.
the only instance i saw it being in anyway funneled is SS Air Penetrator.

200mm could be better for raw air-flow, e.g. flooding the case with cool air.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> I too am impaled on the horns of a dilemma.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking for 120mm fans and can not decide between GTs or the DS fans. What I know is that with the 4 case fans I have (Aerocool Sharks) when the 130cfm cpu cooler fans spool up it turns into a negative pressure case as in long stress tests it runs hotter than in short stress tests.
> 
> I am leaning towards the high flow DS although most people say the high pressure GTs are the way to go. The front of my case consists of perforated metal backed by foam.
> 
> There are no 140 GTs that I know of so you might be better off with the Bitfenix fans to go with the Cryorig fans. What do the experts say?


That is not a negative pressure case, but a case that is not flowing enough air. When CPU cooler is at lower rpm the case CFM and cooler CFM are similar, but when cooler is at high RPM the case is not flowing as much CFM as cooler and cooler has to re-cycle it's on heated exhaust. Result is higher temperature air going into cooler and higher CPU temps.

This is a good example of why I preach more case airflow than combined component airflow and suggest the use of automatic speed control on case fans based on component airflow.. As cooler airflow increases so does case airflow.. Info in links in sig.


----------



## miklkit

@pshootr I am not familiar with the fan mounting system on your cooler, but the center fan should be blowing some air down across the motherboard and into the VRM heat sink. Consider removing the I/O panel. I did and was surprised at the amount of air flowing out around those little silver boxes. With the I/O panel in place it creates a dead zone for air flow right at the VRM heatsink. Exhaust fans don't have any resistance to overcome so go for high air flow or no fan at all.

Well, it gets the point across. As open as this case is there really is no pressure but just flow. After lots of stress tests when the side panels come off there is dust in the joints indicating air flow there. Theoretically the case fans have more flow than the cpu fans but the reality is different. This surprising as when I stick my hand in there I can really feel the wind in there. Anyhoo, more power!


----------



## pshootr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> @pshootr I am not familiar with the fan mounting system on your cooler, but the center fan should be blowing some air down across the motherboard and into the VRM heat sink. Consider removing the I/O panel. I did and was surprised at the amount of air flowing out around those little silver boxes. With the I/O panel in place it creates a dead zone for air flow right at the VRM heatsink. Exhaust fans don't have any resistance to overcome so go for high air flow or no fan at all.
> 
> Well, it gets the point across. As open as this case is there really is no pressure but just flow. After lots of stress tests when the side panels come off there is dust in the joints indicating air flow there. Theoretically the case fans have more flow than the cpu fans but the reality is different. This surprising as when I stick my hand in there I can really feel the wind in there. Anyhoo, more power!


I am trying to figure out now if the R1 puts any air on the VRM. I kinda don't think so. The only way I think I would consider taking off the IO panel is if I could achieve positive pressure, because of dust.

It seems with the coolers exhaust, and rear/top case exhaust there would have to be some air moving around in the IO area. I don't want to pull air through the IO area because of dust. I guess if the air in the IO area is going out and not in then dust should not be a problem.

Thanks for all the input. I still have a ways to go in figuring this all out. Fan type, placement, ect.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Post pics of your current config..
Dust: it will always occur no matter what you do to prevent it..look at all of the haf series cases..24/7 dust bunnies..i had a enforcer( 912 haf in dicuise) i literaly had to clean it each time before and after use..worse case airflo layout ever..i took the 200mm front out and put two 120mm in..instant increase in airflo.temps dropped even by 5°..

Plus..because pcs are essentialy all electrical components..it will naturaly atract dust..just look at tv screens..same effect..a good way to help prevent is anti static duster/cloths..wipe the pc off outside each time before usage.+ 1time a week blow out the inside dust and wipe out too..if your not using the rig 24/7..use a bed cover/sheet..big enough to cover up all your gear..ive got a bigass sheet that covers my whole setup..the screen..tower..everything..and it helps keep the nasties down by 80%..cause i dnt use the rig 24/[email protected] state its just standing under covers..only used it 3times so far since nov 2014...
All fans airflo are scattered..some are just better designed to counter act this...
Ive got a old cm megaflo red led..but the special edition..not normal..its got those hub supports all around..like 8 -10..and it indeed does help direct airflo more focused compared to normal hub 4arm supports..the bitfenix ones has this also..
A old school trick also- drill a small 2mm hole either at the center or top tip of each fan blade..this counteracts turbulence caused by the fan blafes and moving air..its almost like having those notches in the blades..like the noctuas..phanteks etc


----------



## pshootr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Post pics of your current config..
> Dust: it will always occur no matter what you do to prevent it..look at all of the haf series cases..24/7 dust bunnies..i had a enforcer( 912 haf in dicuise) i literaly had to clean it each time before and after use..worse case airflo layout ever..i took the 200mm front out and put two 120mm in..instant increase in airflo.temps dropped even by 5°..
> 
> Plus..because pcs are essentialy all electrical components..it will naturaly atract dust..just look at tv screens..same effect..a good way to help prevent is anti static duster/cloths..wipe the pc off outside each time before usage.+ 1time a week blow out the inside dust and wipe out too..if your not using the rig 24/7..use a bed cover/sheet..big enough to cover up all your gear..ive got a bigass sheet that covers my whole setup..the screen..tower..everything..and it helps keep the nasties down by 80%..cause i dnt use the rig 24/[email protected] state its just standing under covers..only used it 3times so far since nov 2014...
> All fans airflo are scattered..some are just better designed to counter act this...
> Ive got a old cm megaflo red led..but the special edition..not normal..its got those hub supports all around..like 8 -10..and it indeed does help direct airflo more focused compared to normal hub 4arm supports..the bitfenix ones has this also..
> A old school trick also- drill a small 2mm hole either at the center or top tip of each fan blade..this counteracts turbulence caused by the fan blafes and moving air..its almost like having those notches in the blades..like the noctuas..phanteks etc


Will try and get some pics soon, need to fix the cable on my cameras charger. Ya dust will always be present, I'm just trying to minimize it with positive pressure if possible. I pretty much run 24/7.

Thanks a lot for all the tips.







+1


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Always glad to help were i can..full possitive isnt always the answer ..especialy if your running 24/7..try get it balanced more..atleast one or two exhaust fans to help aid in the flow of the setup


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> It depends on what you want from a fan , and if you are opinionated and confrontational or not , you see to me the definition of garbage would be a fan that screams like a turbine from a jet engine and talking to someone like you choose to , that is garbage !
> 
> You bring your thread on air cooling down to a level that belittles it and makes it relatively useless for advise to anyone , because if its not dave's fan then its garbage , no tactful or intelligent feed back , just trashing of anyones opinion that is not yours.
> 
> And for the record i will state again , i have asked every OCN user that i have seen that has the fan , and others from other sites , and %100 good feedback of both performance and noise level and that is at least 15 people , so i draw my conclusions from my own experience and all the other happy DS owners.
> 
> So to anyone Wanting to know about the Aerocool DS fans they are very good in all aspects for a fan, unless you want the highest of airflow aesthetics has no importance , and you are not bothered by noise or would just like the option to crank a fan to high RPM for max cooling then dont choose the DS listen to recommendations for such a fan.
> 
> When it comes down to it it is all to do with RPM and what you want from a fan 7500 RPM is awesome if thats what smokes your tyres , rocks your socks.


When did I recommend a fan that screams at 7500rpm?
Also, if you want to defend a fan that much then go buy it at all means. It's not my duty to tell you what to buy if you aren't listening, why should I bother?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> i'd like a clarification on this, 200mm might not have more pressure than 120mm, but the air velocity per surface area is much lower.
> filter constrictions becomes more prevalent at higher air velocities, its like covering your mouth with a piece of cloth.
> breath slow and it doesn't feel like you have a cloth over your mouth, but breath hard and the cloth becomes obnoxious.
> 
> its the same with 200mm vs 120mm, say they both have 100CFM, but 200mm has a 31,416mm surface area against 11,310mm of 120mm.
> that means its 0.00318CFM per square mm for 200mm, while its 0.00884CFM per square mm for 120mm or nearly 3times more air velocity than 200mm.
> 
> if what i'm saying has any truth in it, then it should be better to use large diameter fan for flushing heat off from an area.
> since 200mm has a larger flood area than 120mm, and in theory 200mm should provide a much more consistent airflow.
> 
> in areas like GPU's with axial fans tends to dump large amounts of heated air back inside the case.
> so if you can flush that hot air off that large area it should minimize hot-air recycling of GPUs.


Not trying to be scientific like you are but here ... I smell something a little wrong.
I've not heard of a filter that's about 200mm wide that I can easily buy or even anything close to that. Besides 180mm square frame fans from silverstone are actually MUCH better bets than 200mm round frame fans
Many cases with 200mm fans have NO filters because they produce ABSOLUTELY no airflow with a filter. Okay, the only one I like so far is the PH-F200SP but that fan is actually quite intrusive compared to me using 2x AFB1212Hs at 1000rpm and getting FAR more airflow and lower noise as well.

And, the noisiest component in me rig is my power supply and it isn't a joke.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> When did I recommend a fan that screams at 7500rpm?
> Also, if you want to defend a fan that much then go buy it at all means. It's not my duty to tell you what to buy if you aren't listening, why should I bother?
> .


I think you just showed a 7500 rpm fan in a vid , not a recommendation, it was a screamer though lol
You are very knowledgible and dispit what i posted , do fully appreciate any advice , its just that it does not suit my other requirements , and is fully adequate for what i want , and everyone is happy with them , thats all , so DS just doesnt deserve to be dist

And i have listened to good advice , and if i do indeed find after all is up and running , that the DS are indeed garbage , then i will go with one of your recomendations , but probably just paint them , if that is a possibility

I should have not got so defensive , and would not usually bother


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> i'd like a clarification on this, 200mm might not have more pressure than 120mm, but the air velocity per surface area is much lower.
> filter constrictions becomes more prevalent at higher air velocities, its like covering your mouth with a piece of cloth.
> breath slow and it doesn't feel like you have a cloth over your mouth, but breath hard and the cloth becomes obnoxious.
> 
> its the same with 200mm vs 120mm, say they both have 100CFM, but 200mm has a 31,416mm surface area against 11,310mm of 120mm.
> that means its 0.00318CFM per square mm for 200mm, while its 0.00884CFM per square mm for 120mm or nearly 3times more air velocity than 200mm.
> 
> if what i'm saying has any truth in it, then it should be better to use large diameter fan for flushing heat off from an area.
> since 200mm has a larger flood area than 120mm, and in theory 200mm should provide a much more consistent airflow.
> 
> in areas like GPU's with axial fans tends to dump large amounts of heated air back inside the case.
> so if you can flush that hot air off that large area it should minimize hot-air recycling of GPUs.
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to be scientific like you are but here ... I smell something a little wrong.
> I've not heard of a filter that's about 200mm wide that I can easily buy or even anything close to that. Besides 180mm square frame fans from silverstone are actually MUCH better bets than 200mm round frame fans
> Many cases with 200mm fans have NO filters because they produce ABSOLUTELY no airflow with a filter. Okay, the only one I like so far is the PH-F200SP but that fan is actually quite intrusive compared to me using 2x AFB1212Hs at 1000rpm and getting FAR more airflow and lower noise as well.
> 
> And, the noisiest component in me rig is my power supply and it isn't a joke.
Click to expand...

you're correct about that, but most cases have a large front-panel filter covering the entire front panel, so based on that fans of any size gets filtered.

though on that note, the core V21 i bought came with a 180mm fan, with or without the front-cover it has the same airflow.
though both are weak airflow, compared to two SP120 silent i bought its just about the same output.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> I think you just showed a 7500 rpm fan in a vid , not a recommendation, it was a screamer though lol
> You are very knowledgible and dispit what i posted , do fully appreciate any advice , its just that it does not suit my other requirements , and is fully adequate for what i want , and everyone is happy with them , thats all , so DS just doesnt deserve to be dist
> 
> And i have listened to good advice , and if i do indeed find after all is up and running , that the DS are indeed garbage , then i will go with one of your recomendations , but probably just paint them , if that is a possibility
> 
> I should have not got so defensive , and would not usually bother


Lol nah I don't think that TFB0812UHE is in the thread. I'm one of those who values silence.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> you're correct about that, but most cases have a large front-panel filter covering the entire front panel, so based on that fans of any size gets filtered.
> 
> though on that note, the core V21 i bought came with a 180mm fan, with or without the front-cover it has the same airflow.
> though both are weak airflow, compared to two SP120 silent i bought its just about the same output.


The issue is that almost all 200mm fans are bad and most filtering systems for 200mm fans are effectively a single piece of plastic mesh...
For a fan to not be restricted with a front panel means that air is going right into the fan and bypassing the front panel. It's just physical


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Hence why i previously asked and wondered why no manufacturer has taken this issue into consideration and made a proper 200/180mm fan..something with decent volt regulation capabilities support..high rpms like 1-2500rpm so it can output more airflo


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Hence why i previously asked and wondered why no manufacturer has taken this issue into consideration and made a proper 200/180mm fan..something with decent volt regulation capabilities support..high rpms like 1-2500rpm so it can output more airflo


A 200mm fan at 2500rpm ... is seriously loud. A 180mm square fan probably fits in the mounts intended for a 200mm round fan ... But it's subjective and that's what I'd try instead actually.

Of course there won't be proper 200mm fans because no real research went into them to make a decent 200mm fan that has good static pressure because a proper 200mm fan design needs to be 50-70mm thick and that obviously won't fit in a PC case and there won't be any servers using them obviously.
The only decent 200mm round fan out there is of course the phanteks, high speed would be nice but round fans have a lack of rigidity making high speed operation impossible.

Even workstations hardly use 140mm fans so there.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Hence why i previously asked and wondered why no manufacturer has taken this issue into consideration and made a proper 200/180mm fan..something with decent volt regulation capabilities support..high rpms like 1-2500rpm so it can output more airflo
> 
> 
> 
> A 200mm fan at 2500rpm ... is seriously loud. A 180mm square fan probably fits in the mounts intended for a 200mm round fan ... But it's subjective and that's what I'd try instead actually.
> 
> Of course there won't be proper 200mm fans because no real research went into them to make a decent 200mm fan that has good static pressure because a proper 200mm fan design needs to be 50-70mm thick and that obviously won't fit in a PC case and there won't be any servers using them obviously.
> The only decent 200mm round fan out there is of course the phanteks, high speed would be nice but round fans have a lack of rigidity making high speed operation impossible.
> 
> Even workstations hardly use 140mm fans so there.
Click to expand...

i think the rigidness problem had been solved by scythe but i can't say they had made a 200mm with that design.
then theres noiseblocker's NB-eLoop, which is quite an amusing blade design.
the trick was adding a ring on the edge to support the blades.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

How good are those eloops..they do look sexy as hell often..

200mm fan rigidness..all they need to do is increase the thickness by 1-5mm overall..on the frame and add more support arms..like 10? Which can serve a double duty to direct airflo and counteract noise/turbilence...
It is a pitty that most 200mm are weak in the knees..but they do work well in certain scenarios..atleast the few ive done have..top exhaust..side intake....


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> i think the rigidness problem had been solved by scythe but i can't say they had made a 200mm with that design.
> then theres noiseblocker's NB-eLoop, which is quite an amusing blade design.
> the trick was adding a ring on the edge to support the blades.


The AFB1212GHE spins at a max of 5200rpm







Granted it's a 120x38 but ...
This one spins at 4100rpm as well though not quite 5400rpm
http://products.sanyodenki.com/en/contents/hp0070/list.php?CNo=70&ProCon=1264

At "noiseblocker" speeds the 120x25 deltas are very stable.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> How good are those eloops..they do look sexy as hell often..
> 
> 200mm fan rigidness..all they need to do is increase the thickness by 1-5mm overall..on the frame and add more support arms..like 10? Which can serve a double duty to direct airflo and counteract noise/turbilence...
> It is a pitty that most 200mm are weak in the knees..but they do work well in certain scenarios..atleast the few ive done have..top exhaust..side intake....


You need at least a 40mm width on 200mm ROUND fans. If they are square it's a different story.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Cool beans dave..but..are the noiseblockers good fans? They very popular often..


----------



## pshootr

My Phanteks 200mm intake does in fact pull in a nice amount of air, it may not push it very hard but it does bring it in rather well. Rapid dust collection on my front grill is a testimony of this.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Cool beans dave..but..are the noiseblockers good fans? They very popular often..


They are but everyone is too stuck up on CFM and that "low-noise" automatically means better


----------



## miklkit

I dehorned meself and got the Aerocool DS fans. They are very quiet at 100% speed but don't move much air. Methinks the Arctic F12 is better.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

I can vouch for arctic fans..ive had a few in the past in their 92mm variety..even full rpm..tons of airflo and doa quiet..

Dave..i hear ya..to me silence is a bonus..but i prefer decent temps over silence any day or time..im not into fancy gimmicks or high end reviews..only a select few i trust..i prefer testing it myself if i can

DS fan- can you repeat that?


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> I can vouch for arctic fans..ive had a few in the past in their 92mm variety..even full rpm..tons of airflo and doa quiet..
> 
> Dave..i hear ya..to me silence is a bonus..but i prefer decent temps over silence any day or time..im not into fancy gimmicks or high end reviews..only a select few i trust..i prefer testing it myself if i can
> 
> DS fan- can you repeat that?


I've had a few arctic cooling fans from a case that I bought from another guy. They are quite quiet with blades that can take a beating. But boy, those blades can help a little more allignment. At their speed, they are vibrating wild. Same goes for those Lian li's.

I have 4 1200 RPM NB E-loops. They are quieter when compared to 1200 Cougar FDBs (that are already silent). But I'd pick the Cougars over them all day. E-loops push miniscule air in comparison and are notorious for scraping their blades off a rad or case when not properly alligned to avoid those end rings. Like those reports on them noisy when mounted horizontally on pull config.


----------



## miklkit

My F12s did not vibrate on me. What I heard was a whooshing sound from air getting pulled through the filters. I tested the air flow by taking a big heavy duty paper towel and folding it in half. It stuck solidly to the front of my case. These dead silence fans can just barely hold up one small paper towel. Two drop off.


I no longer have a full set of the F12s as I put some in another rig. I recently saw a chart that shows the Bitfinex fans being maybe a little bit better.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

What id like to see is the fan shrouds be a little deeper at both sides by 5mm..i think this could aid in better airflo being pulled into the fan and being pushed..


----------



## sweenytodd

Dave, is it worth it to buy six GF 140 fans to populate my red themed rig in my sig?

This will cost $100 CAD. Yes, very limited selection here in Canada. I have two red Jetflo as my front intakes and I want a solid coloured fans all around.

Thanks.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

GF140mm?
Care to tell what these are..i dd a dum google search..nothing came up


----------



## sweenytodd

Use "GF140" not "GF140mm" in Google search. One of the recommended fans by Dave.

DEEPCOOL Gamer Storm GF 140 Red PWM Fan Hydro Bearing Rubber Coating De-vibration Deep Silent


----------



## benbenkr

About to take the jump and get the Silverstone FQ122, it's definitely better than the FW122. They have different bearings btw. Silverstone needs some love too!


----------



## xtreemeNoob

@DaveLT I saw in this thread that you keep on recommending and supporting the CM jet flo's, but what about the oil leaking problem, is it solved?

Also these are pwms so how to run these from a fan controller as case fans?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> I've had a few arctic cooling fans from a case that I bought from another guy. They are quite quiet with blades that can take a beating. But boy, those blades can help a little more allignment. At their speed, they are vibrating wild. Same goes for those Lian li's.
> 
> I have 4 1200 RPM NB E-loops. They are quieter when compared to 1200 Cougar FDBs (that are already silent). But I'd pick the Cougars over them all day. E-loops push miniscule air in comparison and are notorious for scraping their blades off a rad or case when not properly alligned to avoid those end rings. Like those reports on them noisy when mounted horizontally on pull config.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> My F12s did not vibrate on me. What I heard was a whooshing sound from air getting pulled through the filters. I tested the air flow by taking a big heavy duty paper towel and folding it in half. It stuck solidly to the front of my case. These dead silence fans can just barely hold up one small paper towel. Two drop off.
> 
> 
> I no longer have a full set of the F12s as I put some in another rig. I recently saw a chart that shows the Bitfinex fans being maybe a little bit better.


Fan manufacturing is like that. Even Sanyo is prone to misbalanced fans. The difference is those Sanyo fans are thrown out. In PC fans? Hardly any QA. Look at those leaky Noctua fans.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xtreemeNoob*
> 
> @DaveLT I saw in this thread that you keep on recommending and supporting the CM jet flo's, but what about the oil leaking problem, is it solved?
> 
> Also these are pwms so how to run these from a fan controller as case fans?


I've never encountered oil leakage problems running it horizontally for more than 1 year now.

Just run them from a fan controller?


----------



## xtreemeNoob

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Just run them from a fan controller?


yes since all major fan controller are 3pin and I have nzxt sentry2.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Any 4pin fan can work via 3pin..& controllers..its same principle as 3pin..it uses the voltage lines for control/manipulation


----------



## xtreemeNoob

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Any 4pin fan can work via 3pin..& controllers..its same principle as 3pin..it uses the voltage lines for control/manipulation


u can't insert a 4pin female pwm into an 3pin male plug coming from the controller, thats just not physically possible without modification.

I was not talking about the fundamental of the working phenomena, It's normal to work like that.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xtreemeNoob*
> 
> u can't insert a 4pin female pwm into an 3pin male plug coming from the controller, thats just not physically possible without modification.
> 
> I was not talking about the fundamental of the working phenomena, It's normal to work like that.


I sniped the one side on my 3 pin connector so they fitted . No issues.
Other option is if u have some old fans or a computer repairer close by go raid there broken fans and make your own adapters from 4pin to 3 pin only need to cut solder and heat shrink and maybe sleeve em if u get excited ?


----------



## doyll

What sav4 said.


----------



## DaveLT

All the fan controllers I have (4 of them in fact) have provisions for 4 pin fans without the actual 4th pin in them.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Like sav4 said..just snip open the one side of the adapter..abd ppresto anti pesto they fit


----------



## vlaint

Are 38mm delta fans above HE speed recommended or not? Just cant seem to find any cheap afb1212he or me on the net they usually cost near $20 a piece not including shipping. I seem to have fallen in love with 38mm after using 2 afb1212he but one is dead now and ive replaced it with a 38mm sanyo denki which doesnt give as much airflow.


----------



## epic1337

i got a question for fanhubs, NZXT Grid bay Fan Hub 10 ports *vs* Thermaltake Commander FX Fan Hub 10 ports, which is better?
from reliability stand-point and built quality (though its just jumpers inside these things).
TT commander FX is cheaper.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Both will serve you same way..but there are others too...









https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw2wjiA9esI

duno how this person set up the TT...but seems like the fans arent getting eough juice


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Both will serve you same way..but there are others too...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw2wjiA9esI
> 
> duno how this person set up the TT...but seems like the fans arent getting eough juice


7volt input? though TT uses SATA connectors so i doubt it, i dunno but NZXT gives quite a bit of accessories along with it


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Dum ???..how can one take a fancontrolller and juice it up to put out more juice?
Say take this controller and spice it up by removing the old caps/ics and replacing them with stronger ones?
http://www.google.co.za/search?site=&source=hp&ei=E5LsVOfeK4PWOOupgeAB&q=zalman+mfc1+plus+&oq=zalman+mfc1+plus+&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.3..0i22i30l5.14900.30483.0.31567.22.16.0.8.8.1.3485.10171.3-3j1j2j3j1j0j1.11.30532.msedr...0...1c.1j5.62.mobile-gws-hp..7.15.6395.0.C_xQyOEzlL4


----------



## epic1337

can't go with bay controllers, the space is already occupied by a DVD combo drive.

well anyway, i might just take NZXT or which ever is available, i'm favoring NZXT because molex is easier to mod to 7v input


----------



## mfdoom7

i need help for optimizing cooling. should i remove rear fan and but it to front. right now i have 2x120mm on fron 2x120mm on top both are blowing air in, i use filter so i wondered do i benifit from 1 more intake fan. i could but it in 3x 5.2" slots


----------



## twerk

Can someone please recommend me 3 120x120x25 fans to put in my HTPC. They will be run off the integrated fan controller in my case which outputs 5v, 7v and 12v so PWM isn't necessary. I'd like them to be as quiet as possible.


----------



## epic1337

case fan? i'm having a really good experience with xigmatek XOF series, they're only good for push due to how its made.
airflow/noise ratio is great but lacks pressure, works best as back exhaust or HDD cooling.

general purpose fan would be scythe's gentle typhoon 1850rpm or 2150rpm the latter being best ran at 7v.

silverstone's air penetrators are good for motherboard cooling when mounted as side-panel intake directly facing places needed to be cooled, i.e. chipset, mosfets or ram.

what case are you using by the way?


----------



## twerk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> case fan? i'm having a really good experience with xigmatek XOF series, they're only good for push due to how its made.
> airflow/noise ratio is great but lacks pressure, works best as back exhaust or HDD cooling.
> 
> general purpose fan would be scythe's gentle typhoon 1850rpm or 2150rpm the latter being best ran at 7v.
> 
> silverstone's air penetrators are good for motherboard cooling when mounted as side-panel intake directly facing places needed to be cooled, i.e. chipset, mosfets or ram.
> 
> what case are you using by the way?


It'll be a Fractal Design Node 605.


----------



## epic1337

oh i see!
then the most practical combination is only 2 intake fans, i'd expect you to have the two 80mm fans on the back.
the 3rd intake fan closest to the back would only cause a loop sucking the back's exhaust, and i advice you to cover the 3rd fan slot, ducktape?

as for the fans, GT2150 at 7v would be ideal for the most quiet, or 1450rpm at 12v would perform the same but you'd lack the assurance of a stronger airflow when needed.
if you're on a budget though theres another cheaper fan, cougar's CF-V12HP 120mm fans are quite a reasonable option, they're quiet and has good airflow.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Tt had a fan that blade & hub design looks identical to the xigmatek xof fan except the frame design was standard..
Take that xof..up the rpm to 2200rpm
make the blades just 5mm wider and that baby will push darn good airflo/pressure


----------



## epic1337

well yes, but it's thinness and low RPM makes it really quiet for it's looks.

and the thermaltake Pure S 12 might be using the same blade with a different chassis
http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/products-model.aspx?id=C_00002292
the only difference between XOF and Pure S 12 is XOF is running at 1450rpm instead of 1000rpm.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Cool beans..ive got
one of these

http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/ttwww/Retailers.aspx?ID=1791&C=1383

pretty quiet even full tilt..moves pretty decent air..i.suspended it in my 5" bays as intake with zipties..i cut off the molex and put a 3pin on..the wire is crazy stupid long..like nearly 60cm long..


----------



## epic1337

yeah, i'm pretty much a "fan" of their blade design, the smaller hub means less obstruction, and the curved blades pushes more air at very little noise.
its the few fans which TT made really well, cheap, quiet, decent airflow albeit low pressure, its a good general purpose fan, and works best in free flow.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Thats why i put that 140 in my 5" bays..unobstructed intake (minus the mesh cover+filter)

if i put my hand infront of tge cpu cooler i can still feel the airflo even on lowest rpm..which is exactly what i want..durect feed to the cooler..


----------



## guitarhero23

Interesting...Has anyone experienced this?

I was going to buy 5 Bitfenix Spectre 120's from Superbiiz (https://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=FAN-S1225W) because the price was better than anywhere else $5.99.

I got the items all the way into my cart and I think I even logged into paypal through the site but then happened to come across the fan on Ebay from a retailer called mp3superstore (http://www.ebay.com/itm/161472603768?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) for $7.97 + free shipping.

Totals + shipping was going to be like

Superbiiz $5*5 = $29.95+$15 shipping = $46.89
mp3superstore $7.97*5 = $39.85 + 0 = $39.85

So obviously I never completed my order at Superbiiz and checked out on Ebay. Well I just got an email from Superbiiz thanking me for my order and giving me tracking order so I thought I just ended up getting charged and was going to get the order I did not want. I look at the total and it's the same as ebay and SAME tracking number....So they go by a different company name on ebay and sell it cheaper?

What?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Alot of places do that..its old stock thats been sitting for ages and if they dont sell it fast..it gets written off and the owner has to carry that debt..in other cases it the actual supplier to these places..who do double deals(under the table) to score ...
If i was buying..and it was my money..id go abd paymore at a well known store instead..

But..nice find..let us all know how they run..your pros/cons?!!!
Cool beans


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Dum ???..how can one take a fancontrolller and juice it up to put out more juice?
> Say take this controller and spice it up by removing the old caps/ics and replacing them with stronger ones?
> http://www.google.co.za/search?site=&source=hp&ei=E5LsVOfeK4PWOOupgeAB&q=zalman+mfc1+plus+&oq=zalman+mfc1+plus+&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.3..0i22i30l5.14900.30483.0.31567.22.16.0.8.8.1.3485.10171.3-3j1j2j3j1j0j1.11.30532.msedr...0...1c.1j5.62.mobile-gws-hp..7.15.6395.0.C_xQyOEzlL4


Caps, Mosfets/Transistors maybe even diodes (used in traditional PWM switched voltage controllers as fly back diodes) and inductors and making sure the power traces are deep enough to handle extra power as they usually are just thick enough for the intended power draw
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Tt had a fan that blade & hub design looks identical to the xigmatek xof fan except the frame design was standard..
> Take that xof..up the rpm to 2200rpm
> make the blades just 5mm wider and that baby will push darn good airflo/pressure


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> if you're on a budget though theres another cheaper fan, cougar's CF-V12HP 120mm fans are quite a reasonable option, they're quiet and has good airflow.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> yeah, i'm pretty much a "fan" of their blade design, the smaller hub means less obstruction, and the curved blades pushes more air at very little noise.
> its the few fans which TT made really well, cheap, quiet, decent airflow albeit low pressure, its a good general purpose fan, and works best in free flow.


Once again I suggest NEITHER of those fans. Good airflow in open air but what's the point if it has low pressure because most cases are actually restrictive even metal mesh is restrictive and that the LEAST restrictive filters (like demciflex/silverstone FF123) are the fine ones the most restrictive being the COARSE plastic mesh filters CM puts on their HAF line. It's all to do with turbulence not much of actual static pressure but in either case a high SP fan flows more air with a ff123.

I know well, I had a coarser waved pattern aluminium filter and it was rather restrictive and collected dust not only on the outside of the filter and the SIDE WHERE THE FAN INTAKE IS as well as dumping a lot of dust into my system. God knows if I still ran my HAF 912

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Alot of places do that..its old stock thats been sitting for ages and if they dont sell it fast..it gets written off and the owner has to carry that debt..in other cases it the actual supplier to these places..who do double deals(under the table) to score ...
> If i was buying..and it was my money..id go abd paymore at a well known store instead..
> 
> But..nice find..let us all know how they run..your pros/cons?!!!
> Cool beans


Superbiiz is actually quite reputable.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Thats why i put that 140 in my 5" bays..unobstructed intake (minus the mesh cover+filter)
> 
> if i put my hand infront of tge cpu cooler i can still feel the airflo even on lowest rpm..which is exactly what i want..durect feed to the cooler..


Say hello to dust collection and goodbye to a clean case.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Always the crittick...
If people just cleaned their rigs regularly it will 99% of the time not colect/trap dust so much..atleast 1 time a week or so..and instead of running pcs 24/7 when not in use..cover it up with something..**** a bedsheet or sonething light..thick..big enough..since i started doing this ive had 85% less dust overall on my desk and inside my stuff..


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Tt had a fan that blade & hub design looks identical to the xigmatek xof fan except the frame design was standard..
> Take that xof..up the rpm to 2200rpm
> make the blades just 5mm wider and that baby will push darn good airflo/pressure
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> if you're on a budget though theres another cheaper fan, cougar's CF-V12HP 120mm fans are quite a reasonable option, they're quiet and has good airflow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> yeah, i'm pretty much a "fan" of their blade design, the smaller hub means less obstruction, and the curved blades pushes more air at very little noise.
> its the few fans which TT made really well, cheap, quiet, decent airflow albeit low pressure, its a good general purpose fan, and works best in free flow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again I suggest NEITHER of those fans. Good airflow in open air but what's the point if it has low pressure because most cases are actually restrictive even metal mesh is restrictive and that the LEAST restrictive filters (like demciflex/silverstone FF123) are the fine ones the most restrictive being the COARSE plastic mesh filters CM puts on their HAF line. It's all to do with turbulence not much of actual static pressure but in either case a high SP fan flows more air with a ff123.
> 
> I know well, I had a coarser waved pattern aluminium filter and it was rather restrictive and collected dust not only on the outside of the filter and the SIDE WHERE THE FAN INTAKE IS as well as dumping a lot of dust into my system. God knows if I still ran my HAF 912
Click to expand...

noise to fan airflow ratio is good, and the part that you can have it for less than $5 is what makes it a decent choice.
a 2mm buffer solves the constriction issue as a "back exhaust" and as a matter of fact it feels the same as free flow.

and with orientations like 3exhausts 4intakes, with all 4intakes having filters means you can afford to have the 3exhausts as weaker to have an ex2:in3 air flow ratio.

if you don't take it as a fact then take it as an opinion.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> noise to fan airflow ratio is good, and the part that you can have it for less than $5 is what makes it a decent choice.
> a 2mm buffer solves the constriction issue as a "back exhaust" and as a matter of fact it feels the same as free flow.
> 
> and with orientations like 3exhausts 4intakes, with all 4intakes having filters means you can afford to have the 3exhausts as weaker to have an ex2:in3 air flow ratio.
> 
> if you don't take it as a fact then take it as an opinion.


The reality is that that all airflow is a 1 : 1 ratio. What goes in must come out / what comes out must go in. What we are looking for is the intake fans moving slightly more air than the exhaust fans with this slight difference leaking out other vents / holes in case.









A 3 : 4 ratio o fans is probably close to optimum. Filters drop airflow about 35-80%. Most grills block 30-50% of the area and reduce airflow by 2-17.. which is why I often remove back and bottom grills and use no grill or simple round wire grills as they are the least restrictive.
A staggered 6mm hexagonal hole grill is 60-80% open area.
A staggered 6mm round hole grill is 40-50% open area.

I usually use less exhaust fans but equal vent area, then monitor airflow temps in areas cool air is most needed to be sure it is cool. (Object is to flow coolest possible air to components .. meaning we must remove their heated exhaust without it mixing / heating up the cool air supplying them). If air is not flowing properly, I then adjust fan position and/or speed, add baffles, etc. to get the air flowing properly.


----------



## vlaint

are wfb1212he comparable to afb series?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> are wfb1212he comparable to afb series?


Not even slightly. AFB1212HE is in another league entirely


----------



## Bertovzki

If i do find the DS to not perform like i want , what 140mm fans would you recommend for a EX 420 and a EX 280 rad , and case fans for intake ? , ones that could be painted would be a bonus


----------



## miklkit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> If i do find the DS to not perform like i want , what 140mm fans would you recommend for a EX 420 and a EX 280 rad , and case fans for intake ? , ones that could be painted would be a bonus


Have you ordered them yet? If not, don't. I did and regret it.

I replaced Aerocool Sharks with the DS and while they are quieter they also flow less air behind filters. Overall temps went up. I replaced them with Arctic Cooling F12s and both noise and temps have gone down. Now the loudest thing is the hard drives.

Considering that the f12s do not have a great reputation this doesn't say much for the DS.


----------



## pshootr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> If i do find the DS to not perform like i want , what 140mm fans would you recommend for a EX 420 and a EX 280 rad , and case fans for intake ? , ones that could be painted would be a bonus


You want something with very good static pressure. From what I have read the PH-F140MP's are very good, they are also on sale and have a promo code.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> Have you ordered them yet? If not, don't. I did and regret it.
> 
> I replaced Aerocool Sharks with the DS and while they are quieter they also flow less air behind filters. Overall temps went up. I replaced them with Arctic Cooling F12s and both noise and temps have gone down. Now the loudest thing is the hard drives.
> 
> Considering that the f12s do not have a great reputation this doesn't say much for the DS.


Ok thanks for feedback , yes i have all full set of them already.

You the first person that has owned them out of 15 or so people i have asked that does not like them , thats why i got them , because of the overwhelming support for them.

I dont doubt you in the least , and dave would say something similar , i will give them a go , i can always on sell them , if i dont like them , no problem , at least its about the easiest thing in a build to change any time.

Any more opinions of original question , i think previous replies to question a long time back was jet flow of some sort ? and AP something ?


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pshootr*
> 
> You want something with very good static pressure. From what I have read the PH-F140MP's are very good, they are also on sale and have a promo code.


Cool thanks for reply , ill give these a go first , and i wont be changing for quite a while if they did not perform alright , and if my temps are good , i wont be doing anything.


----------



## pshootr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Cool thanks for reply , ill give these a go first , and i wont be changing for quite a while if they did not perform alright , and if my temps are good , i wont be doing anything.


No problem, I hope they work out for you.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pshootr*
> 
> No problem, I hope they work out for you.


Ha yeah well so do i , no big deal if i have to change them all , i was warned with good advice , the other thing im not so sure was a good decision was to change my top rad to a EX 420 i have an unused RX 360 V3 , but i had to buy i new mobo , and didnt want to do the messy off set of the RX to fit it into the case , so i got the lower profile EX 420 , but every thing i have read say they are as good , and at most 1 degree difference with a good 140 fan , so hopefully these fans will be ok.

If it all turns to custard then , i will swap out my 420 for the 360 too.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> If i do find the DS to not perform like i want , what 140mm fans would you recommend for a EX 420 and a EX 280 rad , and case fans for intake ? , ones that could be painted would be a bonus


I am sure dave will shoot these down...don't really care, but as far as 140's go I am a bis fan if the JetFlo's at a slightly lowe RPM than max.

If you are going to push pull, a pair of Cougar Vortsx are great,

JetFlo 140mm

 JetFlo 140mm

And if tou can find these, they are the CM Excaliburs. They are tremendous fans and pill more ait through a 10-12 FPI rad than any fan its class. Great bearings, easy to clean, and retain their high SP at lower RPM's.





That is a Cougar Vortex 140mm on the front lower 140mm rad. In push pull they are very quiet and move a lot of air. They also have very god bearings.



Some bearing notes an illustrations for ya.













Hope that helps,

Greg


----------



## Lord Xeb

Gentle Typhoons! <3


----------



## Bertovzki

Thanks for the feed back guys , much appreciated , i will get one of these fans if the DS suxs , the DS 120 feels very good , but im not as impressed by the 140"s


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> If i do find the DS to not perform like i want , what 140mm fans would you recommend for a EX 420 and a EX 280 rad , and case fans for intake ? , ones that could be painted would be a bonus


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pshootr*
> 
> You want something with very good static pressure. From what I have read the PH-F140MP's are very good, they are also on sale and have a promo code.


Agreed. Or the fans from cryorig (XF140)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Ok thanks for feedback , yes i have all full set of them already.
> 
> You the first person that has owned them out of 15 or so people i have asked that does not like them , thats why i got them , because of the overwhelming support for them.
> 
> I dont doubt you in the least , and dave would say something similar , i will give them a go , i can always on sell them , if i dont like them , no problem , at least its about the easiest thing in a build to change any time.
> 
> Any more opinions of original question , i think previous replies to question a long time back was jet flow of some sort ? and AP something ?


Pretty much what I've been saying of the DS. They're just flashy and not good fans but the phanteks fans are really the ones I like.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Ha yeah well so do i , no big deal if i have to change them all , i was warned with good advice , the other thing im not so sure was a good decision was to change my top rad to a EX 420 i have an unused RX 360 V3 , but i had to buy i new mobo , and didnt want to do the messy off set of the RX to fit it into the case , so i got the lower profile EX 420 , but every thing i have read say they are as good , and at most 1 degree difference with a good 140 fan , so hopefully these fans will be ok.
> 
> If it all turns to custard then , i will swap out my 420 for the 360 too.


You make the choice







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Thanks for the feed back guys , much appreciated , i will get one of these fans if the DS suxs , the DS 120 feels very good , but im not as impressed by the 140"s


DS sucks, period.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> I am sure dave will shoot these down...don't really care, but as far as 140's go I am a bis fan if the JetFlo's at a slightly lowe RPM than max.
> 
> If you are going to push pull, a pair of Cougar Vortsx are great,
> 
> 
> JetFlo 140mm
> 
> 
> JetFlo 140mm
> 
> And if tou can find these, they are the CM Excaliburs. They are tremendous fans and pill more ait through a 10-12 FPI rad than any fan its class. Great bearings, easy to clean, and retain their high SP at lower RPM's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a Cougar Vortex 140mm on the front lower 140mm rad. In push pull they are very quiet and move a lot of air. They also have very god bearings.
> 
> 
> 
> Some bearing notes an illustrations for ya.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Greg


Actually the Jetflo 120 at 1500rpm don't cool as well as the fans from a Deepcool Maelstrom 240 or as quietly or even close to a AFB1212L at 1000rpm.
The 140s are very rattly and very loud actually. Far louder than the specs suggest. The new Silencio fans are brilliant though

CM excaliburs are garbage fans that all airflow ends up outside the rad not through it. They are crap and will always be

Excuse me but the vortexes aren't brilliant fans. They're just run of the mill performance that's it.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Agreed. Or the fans from cryorig (XF140)
> Pretty much what I've been saying of the DS. They're just flashy and not good fans but the phanteks fans are really the ones I like.
> You make the choice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DS sucks, period.
> Actually the Jetflo 120 at 1500rpm don't cool as well as the fans from a Deepcool Maelstrom 240 or as quietly or even close to a AFB1212L at 1000rpm.
> The 140s are very rattly and very loud actually. Far louder than the specs suggest. The new Silencio fans are brilliant though
> 
> CM excaliburs are garbage fans that all airflow ends up outside the rad not through it. They are crap and will always be
> 
> Excuse me but the vortexes aren't brilliant fans. They're just run of the mill performance that's it.


Ok thanks for answers ill look at a couple of these fans if im not satisfied with DS 140

Are the AFB1212L easy to disassemble to paint ? i think black butt ugly


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Ok thanks for answers ill look at a couple of these fans if im not satisfied with DS 140
> 
> Are the AFB1212L easy to disassemble to paint ? i think black butt ugly


 If anything I rather have a fan in black. Considering all color themes these days are black.

It's a 2BB fan of course it's easy to disassemble just be careful but anyway I wouldn't paint a fan because it ruins performance greatly if you're not accurate.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> If i do find the DS to not perform like i want , what 140mm fans would you recommend for a EX 420 and a EX 280 rad , and case fans for intake ? , ones that could be painted would be a bonus
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *pshootr*
> 
> You want something with very good static pressure. From what I have read the PH-F140MP's are very good, they are also on sale and have a promo code.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed. Or the fans from cryorig (XF140)
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Ok thanks for feedback , yes i have all full set of them already.
> 
> You the first person that has owned them out of 15 or so people i have asked that does not like them , thats why i got them , because of the overwhelming support for them.
> 
> I dont doubt you in the least , and dave would say something similar , i will give them a go , i can always on sell them , if i dont like them , no problem , at least its about the easiest thing in a build to change any time.
> 
> Any more opinions of original question , i think previous replies to question a long time back was jet flow of some sort ? and AP something ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pretty much what I've been saying of the DS. They're just flashy and not good fans but the phanteks fans are really the ones I like.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Ha yeah well so do i , no big deal if i have to change them all , i was warned with good advice , the other thing im not so sure was a good decision was to change my top rad to a EX 420 i have an unused RX 360 V3 , but i had to buy i new mobo , and didnt want to do the messy off set of the RX to fit it into the case , so i got the lower profile EX 420 , but every thing i have read say they are as good , and at most 1 degree difference with a good 140 fan , so hopefully these fans will be ok.
> 
> If it all turns to custard then , i will swap out my 420 for the 360 too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You make the choice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Thanks for the feed back guys , much appreciated , i will get one of these fans if the DS suxs , the DS 120 feels very good , but im not as impressed by the 140"s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> DS sucks, period.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> I am sure dave will shoot these down...don't really care, but as far as 140's go I am a bis fan if the JetFlo's at a slightly lowe RPM than max.
> 
> If you are going to push pull, a pair of Cougar Vortsx are great,
> 
> 
> JetFlo 140mm
> 
> 
> JetFlo 140mm
> 
> And if tou can find these, they are the CM Excaliburs. They are tremendous fans and pill more ait through a 10-12 FPI rad than any fan its class. Great bearings, easy to clean, and retain their high SP at lower RPM's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a Cougar Vortex 140mm on the front lower 140mm rad. In push pull they are very quiet and move a lot of air. They also have very god bearings.
> 
> 
> Some bearing notes an illustrations for ya.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the Jetflo 120 at 1500rpm don't cool as well as the fans from a Deepcool Maelstrom 240 or as quietly or even close to a AFB1212L at 1000rpm.
> The 140s are very rattly and very loud actually. Far louder than the specs suggest. The new Silencio fans are brilliant though
> 
> I have a quartet of jetflos 140mm and run them @ 1200RPM and like them very much as well as the reduced noise level.
> 
> CM excaliburs are garbage fans that all airflow ends up outside the rad not through it. They are crap and will always be.
> 
> we have been through this one before and you are simply wrong about these fans. You think because the frame has holes in it that it loses air out them which is simply not true. they draw more in through the frame openings and air is not blown back. I have tested these fans extensively and find a great amount of air being moved through the rad without blowback from the frame openings which actually draw more air into the blades and the SP pushes it o through.
> 
> As the best critique of the Excaliburs you can come up with id "garbage" and "crap" I will again dismiss your inexperienced assumptions as crass, because if you had actually worked with them you would know better.
> 
> Excuse me but the vortexes aren't brilliant fans. They're just run of the mill performance that's it.
> 
> Your excused. the Cougars vortex in push pull are very capable fans, move a lot of air through 10-12 FPI rads,and are quiet doing it.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> If anything I rather have a fan in black. Considering all color themes these days are black.
> 
> It's a 2BB fan of course it's easy to disassemble just be careful but anyway I wouldn't paint a fan because it ruins performance greatly if you're not accurate.


I could just paint the fan casing if thats what smokes my tires , i am a painter by trade 30 years of it , i would get a good even finish if i was doing the blades.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*


I am fully listening to your opinion too and appreciate it, sound good too


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Not even slightly. AFB1212HE is in another league entirely


aww. Thought theyd be close as i saw a listing on ebay that was affordable. How about compared with afb1212me?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> aww. Thought theyd be close as i saw a listing on ebay that was affordable. How about compared with afb1212me?


I implied that the AFB1212HE is MUCH better than the WFB1212HE.




Notice how the excalibur's airflow is not stable and it's not a lot either compared to the AFB1212M. And the AFB1212M is a heck lot quieter as well.
The CM Excalibur is in fact 45dB which is as loud as a AFB1212SH!
I was typing a long post when my power tripped so I'm keeping it simple.

The specs on both CM Excalibur and Cougar Vortex is not real at all. Ask anyone here who knows anything about fans and they will tell you those specs are suspicious and usually mean a mediocre/bad fan
If you want a good fan buy a Cryorig QF120 Performance.


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> aww. Thought theyd be close as i saw a listing on ebay that was affordable. How about compared with afb1212me?
> 
> 
> 
> I implied that the AFB1212HE is MUCH better than the WFB1212HE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the excalibur's airflow is not stable and it's not a lot either compared to the AFB1212M. And the AFB1212M is a heck lot quieter as well.
> The CM Excalibur is in fact 45dB which is as loud as a AFB1212SH!
> I was typing a long post when my power tripped so I'm keeping it simple.
> 
> The specs on both CM Excalibur and Cougar Vortex is not real at all. Ask anyone here who knows anything about fans and they will tell you those specs are suspicious and usually mean a mediocre/bad fan
> If you want a good fan buy a Cryorig QF120 Performance.
Click to expand...

are you kidding ?? a 33 second video of a napkin on a rad is supposed to be imperial evidence that the Ex is "garbage"? you sir have have a new high in lows.

You have given me an idea however for some video that will actually demonstrate the effectiveness of the Excalibur, and the amount of air it actually does move. And It looks, feels, nor acts nothing like your faux paperweight you have going there..that is before your power went out.

Quote:


> Ask anyone here who knows anything about fans and they will tell you those specs are suspicious and usually mean a mediocre/bad fan


I would submit that anyone who does know anything about fans would not try to pass that off as a credible test of a fans airflow, or effectiveness. I don't know what you look for in a fan, but one of the very important aspects I seek is effect on temperature and the ability to remove heat....I mean...you didn't even include the before and after temps of your Charmin









I have to say though, 30 seconds of McDonald's napkins on top of a rad?? really ? it would be funny if it weren't

so sad.

So allow me to do a proper demonstration, and if you don't...I am going to anyway.


----------



## Bertovzki

I dont know what that test was supposed to demonstrate , the test was " Garbage " you could see clearly the sticker on the fan barely rotating ! , on slowest setting you could get it on , and when you unplugged it , it stopped spinning right away , this is clearly because the damn thing was not even going , just idling at low RPM


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I implied that the AFB1212HE is MUCH better than the WFB1212HE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the excalibur's airflow is not stable and it's not a lot either compared to the AFB1212M. And the AFB1212M is a heck lot quieter as well.
> The CM Excalibur is in fact 45dB which is as loud as a AFB1212SH!
> I was typing a long post when my power tripped so I'm keeping it simple.
> 
> The specs on both CM Excalibur and Cougar Vortex is not real at all. Ask anyone here who knows anything about fans and they will tell you those specs are suspicious and usually mean a mediocre/bad fan
> If you want a good fan buy a Cryorig QF120 Performance.


Ah i see. Guess I wont be buying that after all. Thanks


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> are you kidding ?? a 33 second video of a napkin on a rad is supposed to be empirical evidence that the Ex is "garbage"? you sir have have a new high in lows.
> You have given me an idea however for some video that will actually demonstrate the effectiveness of the Excalibur, and the amount of air it actually does move. And It looks, feels, nor acts nothing like your faux paperweight you have going there..that is before your power went out.
> 
> I would submit that anyone who does know anything about fans would not try to pass that off as a credible test of a fans airflow, or effectiveness. I don't know what you look for in a fan, but one of the very important aspects I seek is effect on temperature and the ability to remove heat....I mean...you didn't even include the before and after temps of your Charmin
> I have to say though, 30 seconds of McDonald's napkins on top of a rad?? really ? it would be funny if it weren't
> so sad.
> So allow me to do a proper demonstration, and if you don't...I am going to anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> I already said I don't have an airflow meter now and it's a fairly obvious way of showing it. I had to make do with what I could think of! Don't be ridiculous. And also, the temp differences between the Excalibur and the afb1212m is 5-7C on a Deepcool Captain 120 with the Excalibur creating one hell of a racket for a PC fan you so praise with no end.
> Like I said : why do you think they dropped the product?
> PS : Your fanboyism is showing up clearly and you are truly an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ROFLMAO. this from a guy who screams Delta 24/7, and does a lame napkin test to attempt an equally lame point.
> 
> Fanboyism? if promoting a product I believe in, produces far better results than your uniformed utterances...with an ...um napkin. then yes, let the fanboyism rain come down.
> 
> You have shown your ignorance rather plainly and in obvious fashion as you are missing at least one (AND THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT) of fan testing....the effect fans have on component temperatures and the ability to remove heat.
> 
> See I have included temperatures in my testing and it renders all of your assumptions....and highly scientific napkin tests as incorrect assumptions. A point I will make very clear in my actual scientific testing here soon. You seem to have picked more on the CM Excalibur than the other two fans I brought up ( the JetFlo and the Cougar Vortex) Three different fans with different attributes for different results. No matter, I will demonstrate my points (scientifically) I might add, in my upcoming HPP project.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said : why do you think they dropped the product?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? I sincerely hope that is rhetorical. In the event you actually don't know the answer to this, Its the same reason the C2D, every motherboard, and graphic card has been discontinued in history. They build a better product to take its place.
> 
> But hey, if you are more comfortable driving your Model T home to light the lanterns so you can find your way to the outhouse....then by all means, have at it.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> PS : Your fanboyism is showing up clearly and you are truly an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And finally we have a classic song of the truly desperate. When one runs out of facts (or napkins) to support an intelligent point of view, they turn to personal insults, and being as predictable as you are, that is exactly what you have done.
> 
> At any rate, you are entirely welcome to look in at the fan testing portion of my watercooling video coming up where I shall demonstrate in a controlled and transparent testing method all of the claims I have made regarding the fans I choose as my radiator fans.
> 
> have a good evening.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> I don't know what that test was supposed to demonstrate , the test was " Garbage " you could see clearly the sticker on the fan barely rotating ! , on slowest setting you could get it on , and when you unplugged it , it stopped spinning right away , this is clearly because the damn thing was not even going , just idling at low RPM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I left the fan plugged in it would be inaccurate and I wanted to demonstrate the noise difference between both fans. Btw this was shot on 24fps.
> 
> And how do I get it on the lowest speed? I'm powering it directly through 12V, no PWM used.
Click to expand...


----------



## X-PREDATOR

ok not to add to the issue but dave no one here are major fanboys..we all hve our likes dislikes..you unfortunately dislike anything any one ever says..you surely have a huge popularity amongst friends in your circles..calling people names?
i have to agree with betrov...your a real piece of work..i grew up with guys like you..they pick on those who they think inferior when actualy behind the scenes..theyre the village clowns..

cougars
ive got a buddy who recently changed his fans to cougar pwm vortex 120mm
3 infact as intake fans..dropped his overall temps by 10 deg C...

cm excalibur
the holes in the frame was originaly done/designed to counteract noise..turbulence from air..
they were very good fans in theyre own right..just very expensive

ps dave...
stop being a grumpy critic and do what this threads tital says for a change..
airflo guide actualy means you hv to be nice to people and help others you know


----------



## doyll

I agree. Fan tissue testing is just another hype with little relevance to how well the fan does or does not perform.


----------



## wes1099

Edit: dumb question and I would rather get the cryorig qf120's at $13 each anyway...


----------



## Bertovzki

I have learned from this thread that all fans are " garbage " , it just depends what trash you want to run in your system


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> I have learned from this thread that all fans are " garbage " , it just depends what trash you want to run in your system


that pretty much sums it up, i still prefer the "garbage" priced under $10, at least i could just trash them away once i get tired of them









amongst the fans i find decent at the price under $10.
cougar vortex 12cm
cougar HBM 12cm
Xigmatek XOF 12cm
Xigmatek XAF 12cm

from what i found out though, 14cm fans are meh at this price point.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> that pretty much sums it up, i still prefer the "garbage" priced under $5, at least i could just trash them away once i get tired of them


Yeah now thats a good approach , makes good sense


----------



## wes1099

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> that pretty much sums it up, i still prefer the "garbage" priced under $10, at least i could just trash them away once i get tired of them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amongst the fans i find decent at the price under $10.
> cougar vortex 12cm
> cougar HBM 12cm
> Xigmatek XOF 12cm
> Xigmatek XAF 12cm
> 
> from what i found out though, 14cm fans are meh at this price point.


The Cryorig QF120's are only $13 on newegg and the performance edition has some pretty impressive specs.


----------



## doyll

Do they pass the tissue test?


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Do they pass the tissue test?










ROFL


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL


You can wipe the tears from your eyes with the tissue .. or blow your nose. After all, that is what tissue used to be used for.

Edit:
I have thought of making some sort of fan airflow test using something hanging that fan blows against. The higher the airflow the greater the angle from vertical it would be. Could even have competitions with a fan on each side and the winner would be the one that moved the hanging piece toward other fan.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL
> 
> 
> 
> You can wipe the tears from your eyes with the tissue .. or blow your nose. After all, that is what tissue used to be used for.
> 
> Edit:
> I have thought of making some sort of fan airflow test using something hanging that fan blows against. The higher the airflow the greater the angle from vertical it would be. Could even have competitions with a fan on each side and the winner would be the one that moved the hanging piece toward other fan.
Click to expand...

why not just buy an anemometer?


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL
> 
> 
> 
> You can wipe the tears from your eyes with the tissue .. or blow your nose. After all, that is what tissue used to be used for.
> 
> Edit:
> I have thought of making some sort of fan airflow test using something hanging that fan blows against. The higher the airflow the greater the angle from vertical it would be. Could even have competitions with a fan on each side and the winner would be the one that moved the hanging piece toward other fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> why not just buy an anemometer?
Click to expand...

Hi Epic,

I think you just got here a bi late for the joke.

Dueling fans! I love it  LOLOL

What about fans with More torque, but slower spin up time??

We could have a handicap system... run it like the show pinks!ROFL


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> why not just buy an anemometer?


Because the airflow out of a fan is not flowing evenly. This makes it very hard to read the airflow because the air is moving faster in some areas than others .. and every fan is different.
And even if we could get accurate airflow speed readings (which is what most anemometers do) we have no idea how the fan will perform with resistance.
Knowing the free airflow is almost meaningless because it is only part of what determines how the fan performs. We do not use our fans in free airflow environments.
We use our fans in applications with the resistance of grills, filters, cooler fins, etc.
Which is what the static pressure specification is .. but again, it's also almost meaningless.
Static pressure rating is the pressure of air needed to stop the fan's airflow. .. and we want our fans to be moving air, not just spinning at full speed with no air movement.
So we need a P/Q curve .. a graph that shows the airflow of fan from no resistance up to the point air stops moving.

Like this


We can assume most airflow requirements have similar or less resistance than what is needed by the radiators shown.

Notice how some of the fans with most airflow (cfm) with no resistance (0.0mm H2O) have much less airflow when there is more resistance
Scythe Glidestream. 1200 has over 70cfm @ 0.0mm, but no airflow @ 0.65mm H2O
Corsair SP 120 has 38cfm @ 0.0mm, but is still flowing 12-13cfm @ 0.64mm


----------



## doyll

I notice the OP's post with the ID-10-T reference is now missing.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> why not just buy an anemometer?
> 
> 
> 
> Because the airflow out of a fan is not flowing evenly. This makes it very hard to read the airflow because the air is moving faster in some areas than others .. and every fan is different.
> And even if we could get accurate airflow speed readings (which is what most anemometers do) we have no idea how the fan will perform with resistance.
> Knowing the free airflow is almost meaningless because it is only part of what determines how the fan performs. We do not use our fans in free airflow environments.
> We use our fans in applications with the resistance of grills, filters, cooler fins, etc.
> Which is what the static pressure specification is .. but again, it's also almost meaningless.
> Static pressure rating is the pressure of air needed to stop the fan's airflow. .. and we want our fans to be moving air, not just spinning at full speed with no air movement.
> So we need a P/Q curve .. a graph that shows the airflow of fan from no resistance up to the point air stops moving.
> 
> Like this
> 
> 
> We can assume most airflow requirements have similar or less resistance than what is needed by the radiators shown.
> 
> Notice how some of the fans with most airflow (cfm) with no resistance (0.0mm H2O) have much less airflow when there is more resistance
> Scythe Glidestream. 1200 has over 70cfm @ 0.0mm, but no airflow @ 0.65mm H2O
> Corsair SP 120 has 38cfm @ 0.0mm, but is still flowing 12-13cfm @ 0.64mm
Click to expand...

use funnels, i mean similar to 120mm to 80mm adapters, and then place the adapter on the "pull" side of a rad, or stuff the adaptor with steelwool and cotton.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> use funnels, i mean similar to 120mm to 80mm adapters, and then place the adapter on the "pull" side of a rad, or stuff the adaptor with steelwool and cotton.


Adapting as 120mm or 140mm fan to a 60mm anemometer is a significant amount of resistance.
Radiator adds more resistance.
Cotton / steelwool would be even higher resistance.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> use funnels, i mean similar to 120mm to 80mm adapters, and then place the adapter on the "pull" side of a rad, or stuff the adaptor with steelwool and cotton.
> 
> 
> 
> Adapting as 120mm or 140mm fan to a 60mm anemometer is a significant amount of resistance.
> Radiator adds more resistance.
> Cotton / steelwool would be even higher resistance.
Click to expand...

exactly, high resistance test, wouldn't an ample resistance prove the fan's worth in performance?


----------



## doyll

Using a radiator or cooler is a good way to simulate actual use resistance. Adding a filter test as well on the front of fan is good too. But using tapered adapters to 80mm, cotton & steelwool will be way more resistance than actual use .. at least my normal use.









For accurate repeatable results the best way for most of us to test fans is use a cooler or radiator and record CPU heat rather than CFM. Equipment to accurately monitor CFM and mm H2O is extremely expensive.


----------



## Luke Cool

Good point Doyll.
Two 80 CFM fans may have two drastically different static pressures.
A fan blade that focuses its airflow will have the higher static pressure.
This is not to say the other fan is junk.
There are some applications to where a dispersed flow is desirable.

mm H2O static pressure, can be measured in two different ways.
!) in front of the blades; this is the way the measure is normally done.
2) from a contained unit.

"From contained unit" is a better measurement for most coolers and radiators, because this is how the fan is used.
It shows leakage, hence> blade to housing relationships.
Focused airflow cools coolers and radiators better only in the focused areas.
If the airflow is confined (sealed), and there is little leakage, at the same CFM,
a dispersed flow will cool coolers and radiators more evenly.
Numbers never tell the whole story.
The best way to judge usage application, is results.
Blade speed, and blade and housing design are great initial indicators.

.


----------



## doyll

It would seem that the way we generally use fans, focused airflow out of the fan has little benefit. The GPU shroud, CPU cooler, case, etc. do a pretty good job of effectively directing the airflow.

The definition of static pressure is the height water rises from the fan's flow before the fan stops flowing air because of the resistance. How can that be done on the intake side of fan? There may be a formula to calculate this, but I don't see how it can be accurately done. My "education" of airflow and cooling is the College of Hard Knocks.. I have no formal /academic education on the subject.

I've been thinking about building a light weight rigid hanging panel with sides approx. 20cm X 20cm square and 40cm long with the panel hanging in the middle. Set fan at the end, see how far the force of the airflow swings the panel off center and record that distance.

By putting a fan on each end it could be used to see which fan is the most powerful. A "push of war" between fans.


----------



## Bertovzki

A fan which throws all the air out the side instead of forward , would probably work well in the front of a 750D for eg. where you have the aluminium front panel right in frount of the fans, as i am exhausting out the front , instead of intake.

I will most probably mod one of my front doors though
I use my face to measure airflow , that is the most advanced scientific system i have come up with so far


----------



## doyll

Ah yes. the FACE test. I think it's better than the HAND test. Definitely better than the TISSUE test.


----------



## epic1337

this got me thinking, whats the best fan in free flow? one thats nearly inaudible but exceedingly provides ridiculous airflow when unobstructed?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

nice..would b cool to use a old pc case as test box..filled with hardware thats dead..but just to add to the restriction of the airflo..

only time youll ever get free flowing air is when theres no restrictions..


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> nice..would b cool to use a old pc case as test box..filled with hardware thats dead..but just to add to the restriction of the airflo..
> 
> only time youll ever get free flowing air is when theres no restrictions..


Sounds like a good idea as a test rig.

Yeah near impossible to have a fan with zero restriction on intake , if you want no dust , but maybe close on exhaust with just a grill


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> nice..would b cool to use a old pc case as test box..filled with hardware thats dead..but just to add to the restriction of the airflo..
> 
> only time youll ever get free flowing air is when theres no restrictions..
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a good idea as a test rig.
> 
> Yeah near impossible to have a fan with zero restriction on intake , if you want no dust , but maybe close on exhaust with just a grill
Click to expand...

actually its possible to have zero restriction, a cut-out back exhaust, no grill at all.
dust shouldn't be an issue with this, but fingers though... or poor kittens.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> actually its possible to have zero restriction, a cut-out back exhaust, no grill at all.
> dust shouldn't be an issue with this, but fingers though... or poor kittens.


Yes that is exactly what i am doing with my 750D ,cutting out the rear grill , and the bottom too , cutting all the metal out , but in my case unfortunately i have to put filters back in , as my rear and bottom are only intakes , but i hope to get a compromise between hole mesh size , enough to do the job , but not restrict too much.

If i was exhausting out these holes i would have just my anodized spider fan grills to limit chance of anything catching the blades , i have no pets kids or anyone to worry about except myself at the moment

Yes i am exhausting out my 2 rads , just the way i prefer it , to have only cool air entering the case and exhausting the hot rad air out.
I know all the pros n cons of the 2 options , i just prefer this , if i dont like my internal temps then i can always change it.
I like the idea of cooler case and airflow through case over mobo , pump , GPU and mosfet heat sinks , than i like the idea of intake through rads


----------



## epic1337

yeah its better to have no grill on the exhaust side, well maybe finger guards but those aren't restrictive, maybe ~10% but thats just about it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> this got me thinking, whats the best fan in free flow? one thats nearly inaudible but exceedingly provides ridiculous airflow when unobstructed?


now if only someone would take this question seriously.


----------



## benbenkr

Some of you are starting to become very anal. I know cutting grills and making holes in casings aren't new. But really? Doing it to $200 casings to improve temps like what? 2c to 5c at most across all components?

Sure, your stuff, do what you want with it. But I'm really taken back by overly anal people here, it's starting to get as bad as the gaming mouse board where people would complain about 5dpi steps changes.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benbenkr*
> 
> Some of you are starting to become very anal. I know cutting grills and making holes in casings aren't new. But really? Doing it to $200 casings to improve temps like what? 2c to 5c at most across all components?
> 
> Sure, your stuff, do what you want with it. But I'm really taken back by overly anal people here, it's starting to get as bad as the gaming mouse board where people would complain about 5dpi steps changes.


thats case design flaw, they should've left the fan mounts without a grill and provided removable filter mesh instead.
nobody was suggesting anyone to do it, just discussing whether having the grills removed improve temps, which it does.

and i beg to differ, a good mouse wouldn't have any tracking issues.
plus a proper mouse pad (note not an expensive "gaming" grade POS marketing scam) has at least a uniform surface.
in which case theres little to influence the sensor's tracking, likewise certain sensors have better tracking with some surfaces, e.g. laser on matte black micro-fiber cloth.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *benbenkr*
> 
> Some of you are starting to become very anal. I know cutting grills and making holes in casings aren't new. But really? Doing it to $200 casings to improve temps like what? 2c to 5c at most across all components?
> 
> Sure, your stuff, do what you want with it. But I'm really taken back by overly anal people here, it's starting to get as bad as the gaming mouse board where people would complain about 5dpi steps changes.


Its not even remotely anal thanks , what it is , is it is so damn easy to do and i prefer to have half as much metal in the way of my fan its that simple , and i like modding and this is the OCN thats what some of us choose to do , i care zero about any temperature change , that is not why i choose to do it , but rather i dont want unnecessary metal in the parth of good air flow , why would you ? , there is a good %30+ metal that does not need to be there.

It is more anal to have such an attitude about it


----------



## Bertovzki

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!









This is the sort of reason i choose to cut metal out.

Look at these before and afters and you will see a huge difference


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the sort of reason i choose to cut metal out.
> 
> Look at these before and afters and you will see a huge difference


i think its "after and before", you have your images the other way around, or maybe i should view it


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Ah yes. the FACE test. I think it's better than the HAND test. Definitely better than the TISSUE test.


hehe, not a bad idea D. Dave and I have been going around about my fav fan, the Excalibur. I stuck my face in front of my 45mm x 360mm and then grabbed some ping pong balls to balance in the airflow.... now if that's not scientific, I don't know what is hehehe.

I am just amazed that I have never seen temperature as a metric used in our discussions, or at least it was quickly and arbitrarily dismissed or ignored.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> i think its "after and before", you have your images the other way around, or maybe i should view it


Ha yeah i did load in that order , did not take the time to juggle and edit , you get the idea though , yeah i put that metal in to stop some air flow









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> hehe, not a bad idea D. Dave and I have been foing around about my fav an, the Excalibur. I stuck my face in front of my 45mm x 360mm and then grabbed some ping pong balls to balance in the airflow.... now if that's not scientific, I don't know what is hehehe.
> 
> I am just amazed that I have never seen temperature as a metric used in our discussions, or at least it was quickly and arbitrarily dismissed or ignored.


yeah ping pong ball sounds great


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> this got me thinking, whats the best fan in free flow? one thats nearly inaudible but exceedingly provides ridiculous airflow when unobstructed?
> 
> 
> 
> now if only someone would take this question seriously.
Click to expand...

ok seriously, <40dB @ 1feet, >80CFM @ 0.1~0.2 mm/H2O static pressure.
nothing? theres only one chart provided with such but no noise reference, and the list isn't even near complete.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> ok seriously, <40dB @ 1feet, >80CFM @ 0.1~0.2 mm/H2O static pressure.
> nothing? theres only one chart provided with such but no noise reference, and the list isn't even near complete.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


The pressure loss caused by fan pulling air into and pushing air out of itself is probably a pressure differential of 0.1-0.2mm H2O.








Puget Systems and Silverstone have both done testing of grill & filter noise & restriction.
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Effects-of-Grill-Patterns-on-Fan-Performance-Noise-107/

http://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?area=en&tid=wh10_0061
http://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?area=en&tid=wh_chessis


----------



## Bertovzki

This sort of restriction is why i did the mod to the front of my case , if you have a good look at that pic of the inside of my case close up of fans , and then you look at actual area that the most important part of the fan " the blade tips " is hugely obstructed by metal , there must be at least %30 of the fan tips covered ! , when you look at the side closest to camera , and how little you can see of the fan blades on the sides


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> ok seriously, <40dB @ 1feet, >80CFM @ 0.1~0.2 mm/H2O static pressure.
> nothing? theres only one chart provided with such but no noise reference, and the list isn't even near complete.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pressure loss caused by fan pulling air into and pushing air out of itself is probably a pressure differential of 0.1-0.2mm H2O.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Puget Systems and Silverstone have both done testing of grill & filter noise & restriction.
> http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Effects-of-Grill-Patterns-on-Fan-Performance-Noise-107/
> 
> http://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?area=en&tid=wh10_0061
> http://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?area=en&tid=wh_chessis
Click to expand...

yes exactly, since i've been implying free flow.

and thanks for those lists, though its still sort of missing something.
edit: ah now i remember whats its missing, fan blade design noise floor and airflow characteristic can affect the overall impact of grills.
Quote:


> From a noise standpoint, what exactly do these results mean? Basically, you should avoid concentric circle, slat, honeycomb and turbine style of grills if possible.


lol, as it says, these designs are bad for noise, definitely makes "high end" chassis seem lame in terms of design.
seriously why do they make it so hard on themselves when a cut-out+aftermarket filter is better?
plus mass productions of aftermarket filter would make it a general item used on any case they so choose.
and in which cheaper than a punched grill, plus can be sold as a separate item for any users who wish to have one.


----------



## doyll

This is a common problem with modern cases that allow the use of 120 and 140mm fans .. and some even 200mm fans. Putting a 200mm fan over the mounting framework lowers airflow and increases noise even more. Enthoo Pro and Enthoo Luxe front 200mm fan in case with 120, 140 & 200mm fan mounts are example of this


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> This is a common problem with modern cases that allow the use of 120 and 140mm fans .. and some even 200mm fans. Putting a 200mm fan over the mounting framework lowers airflow and increases noise even more. Enthoo Pro and Enthoo Luxe front 200mm fan in case with 120, 140 & 200mm fan mounts are example of this
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Yeah good design to be able to remove that , the 750D is a fairly cheap case , hence the very basic design , but thats cool , i enjoy modding , adding your own touch to things , i still like its clean lines on the outside , i have heavily modified my case.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> This is a common problem with modern cases that allow the use of 120 and 140mm fans .. and some even 200mm fans. Putting a 200mm fan over the mounting framework lowers airflow and increases noise even more. Enthoo Pro and Enthoo Luxe front 200mm fan in case with 120, 140 & 200mm fan mounts are example of this
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah good design to be able to remove that , the 750D is a fairly cheap case , hence the very basic design , but thats cool , i enjoy modding , adding your own touch to things , i still like its clean lines on the outside , i have heavily modified my case.
Click to expand...

yes, either a removable tray that slots over 200mm, or a much cheaper design like a wire mount.

basically put imagine this with the circles aligned to 80/120/140/200mm screw mounts.


the entire length of that u-bend will act as the screw holder, and since its a wire grill its almost nothing in terms of blockage.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Yeah good design to be able to remove that , the 750D is a fairly cheap case , hence the very basic design , but thats cool , i enjoy modding , adding your own touch to things , i still like its clean lines on the outside , i have heavily modified my case.


The drawing is what I think it should be.








Sorry, should have said it cannot be removed from case, but I sure wish it was removable.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> yes, either a removable tray that slots over 200mm, or a much cheaper design like a wire mount.
> 
> basically put imagine this with the circles aligned to 80/120/140/200mm screw mounts.
> 
> 
> the entire length of that u-bend will act as the screw holder, and since its a wire grill its almost nothing in terms of blockage.


That is a great idea.









I added the airflow at 1.0mm H2O to the graph to show how fan specifications are deceptive. Notice how the 3 lowest static pressure fans stop flowing air at less than 1.0mm H2O while the 2 lowest cfm fans are moving 3 & 7cfm respectively.
This is why we need the P-Q graph for all fans.


----------



## miklkit

If someone spends $200 on a case and then finds that they need to modify it, then they bought the wrong case. I spent $45 on mine and will do whatever I want. Actually all it has needed so far is to cut out the rear exhaust hole. Doing that increased air flow and reduced noise a lot in both cases.

Yeah, a chrome wire guard is all that is needed, but no one looks back there so I don't even use that anymore. The I/O panel has to go too. The result? My 9590 ran at 5 ghz for 6 months on air without overheating. Currently my 8350 is running at 4.8 on air.


----------



## doyll

Honestly, I haven't a case yet that performs at it's best right out of the box. At the very least most need more fans. My Enthoo Primo and Define R2 are quite good out of the box, but are even better after modding.


----------



## miklkit

Trudat! More and more powerful case fans make a difference in both cpu and mobo temps. Last week I dropped the video card down to a lower slot and temps dropped a little bit more.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

well once im done with my project..ill build a test box just for this kinda testing..and to all those whom hate the corsair fans...ive got a box full today to test and see whats what..santa came a bit late this year for me...


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> If someone spends $200 on a case and then finds that they need to modify it, then they bought the wrong case. I spent $45 on mine and will do whatever I want. Actually all it has needed so far is to cut out the rear exhaust hole. Doing that increased air flow and reduced noise a lot in both cases.
> 
> Yeah, a chrome wire guard is all that is needed, but no one looks back there so I don't even use that anymore. The I/O panel has to go too. The result? My 9590 ran at 5 ghz for 6 months on air without overheating. Currently my 8350 is running at 4.8 on air.


matte black wire guard, i've seen a lot of it recently, and it matches most of the available cases in the market.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> If someone spends $200 on a case and then finds that they need to modify it, then they bought the wrong case. I spent $45 on mine and will do whatever I want. Actually all it has needed so far is to cut out the rear exhaust hole. Doing that increased air flow and reduced noise a lot in both cases.
> 
> Yeah, a chrome wire guard is all that is needed, but no one looks back there so I don't even use that anymore. The I/O panel has to go too. The result? My 9590 ran at 5 ghz for 6 months on air without overheating. Currently my 8350 is running at 4.8 on air.


I had no intention of moding my case when i bought it , and you dont need to either and most dont bother , but i like to improve things and mod , and i still would not buy another case , i have bought the right case even though i have done heaps of mods , the reason is there is only one 750D on the planet , and that is the only case i am interested in , i do also like the 900D , but just too big ! , and i do very much like the SM8 , i think it is the best case , extremely well made , but too expensive and it is not available in NZ , so would cost a fortune well over $1000 at minimum hell might even be 1500+ iv not looked into it.

So $300 NZD is great for a case that has so many options if you do want to mod or not , this is definitely the right case for me.
What i like about it , is its clean straight lines , none space ship look , which is so common in cases ,the only case i have seen ,bar none is the SM8 that would not need modification for me , i like things to be right , and i think most manufactures do not think things through as much as they should.

Also i want a fully linned case ,mine will have acrylic on every surface , including the back of the mobo tray , you cant get that in a case that i am aware of , and thats my favorite build , rigid acrylic tubing and full acrylic linning of the entire case , no 5.25" bay , no HDD trays visable.

I will start a build log very soon , as i have my last parts arriving tomorrow.

That idea of the fan mounts very good ! it would be easy to build that system into any case , all cases , and removable and adjustable rails you could move up or down to mount onto.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> I had no intention of moding my case when i bought it , and you dont need to either and most dont bother , but i like to improve things and mod , and i still would not buy another case , i have bought the right case even though i have done heaps of mods , the reason is there is only one 750D on the planet , and that is the only case i am interested in , i do also like the 900D , but just too big ! , and i do very much like the SM8 , i think it is the best case , extremely well made , but too expensive and it is not available in NZ , so would cost a fortune well over $1000 at minimum hell might even be 1500+ iv not looked into it.
> 
> So $300 NZD is great for a case that has so many options if you do want to mod or not , this is definitely the right case for me.
> What i like about it , is its clean straight lines , none space ship look , which is so common in cases ,the only case i have seen ,bar none is the SM8 that would not need modification for me , i like things to be right , and i think most manufactures do not think things through as much as they should.
> 
> Also i want a fully linned case ,mine will have acrylic on every surface , including the back of the mobo tray , you cant get that in a case that i am aware of , and thats my favorite build , rigid acrylic tubing and full acrylic linning of the entire case , no 5.25" bay , no HDD trays visable.
> 
> I will start a build log very soon , as i have my last parts arriving tomorrow.
> 
> That idea of the fan mounts very good ! it would be easy to build that system into any case , all cases , and removable and adjustable rails you could move up or down to mount onto.


Fractal Design Define R4 & R5 are quite good.

There are several acrylic cases makers.
http://www.parvumsystems.com/
http://www.sunbeamtech.com/PRODUCTS/ACUF/ACUF.html
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l2/g1/c9/list/p1/Cases-Cases_-_Acrylic.html (not sure if still in business)


----------



## miklkit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> matte black wire guard, i've seen a lot of it recently, and it matches most of the available cases in the market.


Chrome! Gloss black and chrome.

Decades ago I had a 1959 Austin-Healey 100/6. Red leather seats, gloss black paint, and chrome hilites everywhere including deep dish chrome wheels with baby moons. On a sunny day it could blind you from the reflections. Anyhoo, I LIKE chrome.


----------



## faizreds

Is this a good fan placement:
Front 2 intake fans
Bottom 1 intake fan
Top 1 intake fan
Rear 1 exhaust fan

Case is cm 690 iii.
All intake fans is cm jetflo. Exhaust fan is fan that came with the case.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Post a pic of it..i wana see this..i love those cases..

Sound like a good setup..just depends on were the top intake is sitting


----------



## faizreds

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Post a pic of it..i wana see this..i love those cases..
> 
> Sound like a good setup..just depends on were the top intake is sitting


The computer not done yet. The top intake will be the front slot.

Example:


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Whats goin into this build?
Anything in those 5"bays?
Id put a fan there as intake also for added flow towrds ram/vrm/cpu area..
Top..leave it open or exhaust fans
remove as much hd racks possible for best intake
add two bittom intakes if you realy want all out extreme...hehaaaahaha


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Whats goin into this build?
> Anything in those 5"bays?
> Id put a fan there as intake also for added flow towrds ram/vrm/cpu area..
> Top..leave it open or exhaust fans
> remove as much hd racks possible for best intake
> add two bittom intakes if you realy want all out extreme...hehaaaahaha


....Your not looking forward to Faiz's build or anything are you X?


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Oh my saint claire..yes i am kooking firwatd to see it..like i said earlier posts..santa clause came late for me..youll all see soon enough in my thread...


----------



## Red1776

Did a bit of upgrading on the AMD HPP.

New sponsor, Microcenter 4K monitor (sitting atop the A10-7850K/Dual graphics build) for the 4 X R290 quad fire build for benching.

replaced the 370A for the 380i also for the R290 quad.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Oh my saint claire..yes i am kooking firwatd to see it..like i said earlier posts..santa clause came late for me..youll all see soon enough in my thread...


well now i'm looking forward to yours 

have any sketches you would like to share?


----------



## faizreds

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> Whats goin into this build?
> Anything in those 5"bays?
> Id put a fan there as intake also for added flow towrds ram/vrm/cpu area..
> Top..leave it open or exhaust fans
> remove as much hd racks possible for best intake
> add two bittom intakes if you realy want all out extreme...hehaaaahaha


Thanks for the advice. You can see some of the components I already bought in my FX rig signature. It will replace the old n dusty rig.
Still need to buy a graphic card and cpu cooler.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *faizreds*
> 
> The computer not done yet. The top intake will be the front slot.
> 
> Example:


Let me think this out:Front 2 intake fans
2x front intakes
1x bottom intake fan
1x top intake fan
1x rear exhaust fan
Assuming all are 120mm fans that is 4 times as much intake as exhaust .. and only as much air as the lessor of the two (intake & exhaust) is the maximum airflow through the case. Granted, there are other holes air will leak out of, but I'm guessing the overall case airflow will be servery limited by the exhaust area. The exhaust area doesn't necessarily need fans as intake fans with good airflow with restriction will flow the air out of low restriction exhaust vent area, but the overall vent area for exhaust and intake need to be similar .. because whichever flow the least is the maximum airflow of the case.

Oh, top vents will probably contaminate the top intake with their warmed exhaust air.







Using the 5.25 bays in front as an intake (3x bays for a 120-140mm fan)(as X-PREDATOR said) and removing all unused PCIe back slot covers usually works very well.









Cryorig is now available in your country. Thermalright make some very good coolers too if they are available there.


----------



## faizreds

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Let me think this out:Front 2 intake fans
> 2x front intakes
> 1x bottom intake fan
> 1x top intake fan
> 1x rear exhaust fan
> Assuming all are 120mm fans that is 4 times as much intake as exhaust .. and only as much air as the lessor of the two (intake & exhaust) is the maximum airflow through the case. Granted, there are other holes air will leak out of, but I'm guessing the overall case airflow will be servery limited by the exhaust area. The exhaust area doesn't necessarily need fans as intake fans with good airflow with restriction will flow the air out of low restriction exhaust vent area, but the overall vent area for exhaust and intake need to be similar .. because whichever flow the least is the maximum airflow of the case.
> 
> Oh, top vents will probably contaminate the top intake with their warmed exhaust air.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using the 5.25 bays in front as an intake (3x bays for a 120-140mm fan) and removing all unused PCIe back slot covers usually works very well.


So, its better for me to move the top intake to the 5.25 bays. Its already in my plan to remove the PCIe back slot cover.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Let me think this out:Front 2 intake fans
> 2x front intakes
> 1x bottom intake fan
> 1x top intake fan
> 1x rear exhaust fan
> Assuming all are 120mm fans that is 4 times as much intake as exhaust .. and only as much air as the lessor of the two (intake & exhaust) is the maximum airflow through the case. Granted, there are other holes air will leak out of, but I'm guessing the overall case airflow will be servery limited by the exhaust area. The exhaust area doesn't necessarily need fans as intake fans with good airflow with restriction will flow the air out of low restriction exhaust vent area, but the overall vent area for exhaust and intake need to be similar .. because whichever flow the least is the maximum airflow of the case.
> 
> Oh, top vents will probably contaminate the top intake with their warmed exhaust air.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using the 5.25 bays in front as an intake (3x bays for a 120-140mm fan)(as X-PREDATOR said) and removing all unused PCIe back slot covers usually works very well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cryorig is now available in your country. Thermalright make some very good coolers too if they are available there.


GPU counts as 1exhaust, and filters acts as a 0.6x multiplier at average or 0.9x without filters due to mesh grills.

so if all intakes were to be filtered:
4 x 0.6 = 2.4 intake worth
( 1 x 0.9 ) + 1 = 1.9 exhaust worth
or roughly 2.5 : 2 ratio

if not filtered:
4 x 0.9 = 3.6 intake worth
( 1 x 0.9 ) + 1 = 1.9 exhaust worth
or roughly 4 : 2 ratio


----------



## doyll

I like my airflow something like this


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> GPU counts as 1exhaust, and filters acts as a 0.6x multiplier at average or 0.9x without filters due to mesh grills.
> 
> so if all intakes were to be filtered:
> 4 x 0.6 = 2.4 intake worth
> ( 1 x 0.9 ) + 1 = 1.9 exhaust worth
> or roughly 2.5 : 2 ratio
> 
> if not filtered:
> 4 x 0.9 = 3.6 intake worth
> ( 1 x 0.9 ) + 1 = 1.9 exhaust worth
> or roughly 4 : 2 ratio


Which by your own calculations shows that in both applications the exhaust is restricting the case's overall airflow.









Why is GPU a 1 when all otheres are 0.9? Most GPU fans flow far less air than good case fans do .. like about half as much airflow.

GPU can only be counted as a exhaust if it is a reference (blower fan) designed card with horizontal fin alignment. The fin alignment on most GPU card is vertical and thus flowing air toward and away from motherboard, not front to back of case.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> GPU counts as 1exhaust, and filters acts as a 0.6x multiplier at average or 0.9x without filters due to mesh grills.
> 
> so if all intakes were to be filtered:
> 4 x 0.6 = 2.4 intake worth
> ( 1 x 0.9 ) + 1 = 1.9 exhaust worth
> or roughly 2.5 : 2 ratio
> 
> if not filtered:
> 4 x 0.9 = 3.6 intake worth
> ( 1 x 0.9 ) + 1 = 1.9 exhaust worth
> or roughly 4 : 2 ratio
> 
> 
> 
> Which by your own calculations shows that in both applications the exhaust is restricting the case's overall airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is GPU a 1 when all otheres are 0.9? Most GPU fans flow far less air than good case fans do .. like about half as much airflow.
> 
> GPU can only be counted as a exhaust if it is a reference (blower fan) designed card with horizontal fin alignment. The fin alignment on most GPU card is vertical and thus flowing air toward and away from motherboard, not front to back of case.
Click to expand...

GPU's total number of fan ranges from 2 to 3, in which case is restricted to 1 due airflow issues and back-panel issues.
in any case theres at least 1 worth of exhaust through the back, thats what my hands tell me anyway.


----------



## faizreds

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I like my airflow something like this


From the picture, is it mean I need to seal the top front fan slot and install exhaust fan at top rear and rear slot? Or just intake and no exhaust?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> GPU's total number of fan ranges from 2 to 3, in which case is restricted to 1 due airflow issues and back-panel issues.
> in any case theres at least 1 worth of exhaust through the back, thats what my hands tell me anyway.


Another hand job.








If you really want to see how much air is flowing out of GPU versus a 120-14mm fan, take a large light weight plastic bag, like dry cleaning garment bag and seal it to the GPU exhaust and see how full bag is in 5-10 seconds. Then do the same with the 120-140mm fan. My money is on the 120-140mm fan move about twice as much air into the bag.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *faizreds*
> 
> From the picture, is it mean I need to seal the top front fan slot and install exhaust fan at top rear and rear slot? Or just intake and no exhaust?


It means check to be sure the cool air from 3x 5.25 vent is going to cooler, not just coming out the top.
Use one rear exhaust and let air 'leak' out the top and PCIe back vents. This is assuming your case fans have enough static pressure to overcome the intake grills, filters, etc. and can push the air through case and out.

Good fans like are used on coolers or radiators can easily do this. Adding exhaust fans has similar effect as push/pull fans on cooler or radiator .. 1-3c improvement in performance. That said, the difference is greater the slower the fans run .. because slower means it takes less resistance to reduce the airflow.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> GPU's total number of fan ranges from 2 to 3, in which case is restricted to 1 due airflow issues and back-panel issues.
> in any case theres at least 1 worth of exhaust through the back, thats what my hands tell me anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Another hand job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you really want to see how much air is flowing out of GPU versus a 120-14mm fan, take a large light weight plastic bag, like dry cleaning garment bag and seal it to the GPU exhaust and see how full bag is in 5-10 seconds. Then do the same with the 120-140mm fan. My money is on the 120-140mm fan move about twice as much air into the bag.
Click to expand...

no really, hand tests works well enough to tell that theres a lot of airflow going, obviously its not an anemometer.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> no really, hand tests works well enough to tell that theres a lot of airflow going, obviously its not an anemometer.


Yes really, handjob it all you want, it's not even close to being an accurate way to evaluate airflow. Move the amount of air through the vent area of GPU and a 120mm vent , orr 140mm vent and your hand will 'say' the GPU is moving much more simply because it has to move many times faster.
A 15 x 70mm GPU vent is 10.5sq cm in area. A 120mm round vent is 130sq cm .. more than 12 times the area means air has to move more than12 times as fast through GPU vent to equal same airflow as 120mm vent.

I've tried explaining this several ways so you can see why a hand is not accurate. I will say no more.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> no really, hand tests works well enough to tell that theres a lot of airflow going, obviously its not an anemometer.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes really, handjob it all you want, it's not even close to being an accurate way to evaluate airflow. Move the amount of air through the vent area of GPU and a 120mm vent , orr 140mm vent and your hand will 'say' the GPU is moving much more simply because it has to move many times faster.
> A 15 x 70mm GPU vent is 10.5sq cm in area. A 120mm round vent is 130sq cm .. more than 12 times the area means air has to move more than12 times as fast through GPU vent to equal same airflow as 120mm vent.
> 
> I've tried explaining this several ways so you can see why a hand is not accurate. I will say no more.
Click to expand...

thats exactly why i said the GPU slot has a lot of airflow, putting my hand over the 120mm back exhaust feels like a breeze, the GPU's slot is like a jet of pressurized air (though thats an exaggeration).


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> thats exactly why i said the GPU slot has a lot of airflow, putting my hand over the 120mm back exhaust feels like a breeze, the GPU's slot is like a jet of pressurized air (though thats an exaggeration).











The volume of air at high speed through a small hole does not even come close to equaling the volume of low speed air through a much larger hole.
















After all, this is about volume of airflow, not the speed of the air.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

@ the 690 case dude..
Just leave the top vents open un used..heats natural way is to rise..so what ever heat is sitting in that top regions will push itself out..
If youre putting a fan in tbe 5"bay..its not neccesary to close the top vents up..
What cpu cooler are ya gna use?

And dont do all 100% positive/intake..youll just create more dust and noise build up (turbulence from trapped air) and often heat issues..unless your maybe gonne mod it..
Like maybe intake all fan spots then modded sidepanel with 2/4*120mm exhuast or 200mm?
Sorry my brains are in high gear for modding ideas..

Doylls pics shows good balance in airflo..having a 4:2 ratio is normal for this case..
Front in
bottom in
5" bays in
side panel in
rear out
top out


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> thats exactly why i said the GPU slot has a lot of airflow, putting my hand over the 120mm back exhaust feels like a breeze, the GPU's slot is like a jet of pressurized air (though thats an exaggeration).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The volume of air at high speed through a small hole does not even come close to equaling the volume of low speed air through a much larger hole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After all, this is about volume of airflow, not the speed of the air.
Click to expand...

that doesn't make sense, do you even realize an anemometer is a tool for measurement of wind speed?


----------



## faizreds

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> @ the 690 case dude..
> Just leave the top vents open un used..heats natural way is to rise..so what ever heat is sitting in that top regions will push itself out..
> If youre putting a fan in tbe 5"bay..its not neccesary to close the top vents up..
> What cpu cooler are ya gna use?
> 
> And dont do all 100% positive/intake..youll just create more dust and noise build up (turbulence from trapped air) and often heat issues..unless your maybe gonne mod it..
> Like maybe intake all fan spots then modded sidepanel with 2/4*120mm exhuast or 200mm?
> Sorry my brains are in high gear for modding ideas..
> 
> Doylls pics shows good balance in airflo..having a 4:2 ratio is normal for this case..
> Front in
> bottom in
> 5" bays in
> side panel in
> rear out
> top out


Depend on the price,the cpu cooler will be cryorig r1.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> that doesn't make sense, do you even realize an anemometer is a tool for measurement of wind speed?


It makes perfect sense.
Yes I know how anemometer monitor wind speed .. and I know how anemometers work too.
But obviously you do not know that cfm is not a measurement of speed. CFM is a measurement of volume moved in a specific length of time.

When using an anemometer we have to know the area of airflow (like a 120mm vent) and then using the speed the air is moving can calculate the CFM

Here is an example of a 15 x 50mm vent and a 120mm round vent each 100mm long. For the sake of discussion the air is moving air the 100mm.


If the air is taking 10 seconds to move the100mm length of the 15x50mm vent tube
And the same 10 seconds to move the same 100mm length of the 120mm vent tube.
Then both vents are moving air at the same speed, and
The 120mm vent is moving 15 times as much air as the 15 x 50mm vent in the same length of time .. .


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> that doesn't make sense, do you even realize an anemometer is a tool for measurement of wind speed?
> 
> 
> 
> It makes perfect sense.
> Yes I know how anemometer monitor wind speed .. and I know how anemometers work too.
> But obviously you do not know that cfm is not a measurement of speed. CFM is a measurement of volume moved in a specific length of time.
> 
> When using an anemometer we have to know the area of airflow (like a 120mm vent) and then using the speed the air is moving can calculate the CFM
> 
> Here is an example of a 15 x 50mm vent and a 120mm round vent each 100mm long. For the sake of discussion the air is moving air the 100mm.
> 
> 
> If the air is taking 10 seconds to move the100mm length of the 15x50mm vent tube
> And the same 10 seconds to move the same 100mm length of the 120mm vent tube.
> Then both vents are moving air at the same speed, and
> The 120mm vent is moving 15 times as much air as the 15 x 50mm vent in the same length of time .. .
Click to expand...

well yes, but saying that a tiny vent hole CANT reach the same CFM doesn't make any sense at all.

75000sqmm = 0.807sqf
1130400sqmm = 12.168sqf

say both has 40cfm
40cfm/0.807 sqf = 50ft/sec
40cfm/12.168 sqf = 3ft/sec


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> well yes, but saying that a tiny vent hole CANT reach the same CFM doesn't make any sense at all.
> 
> 75000sqmm = 0.807sq ft
> 1130400sqmm = 12.168sq ft
> 
> say both has 40cfm
> 40cfm/0.807 sqf = 50ft/sec = 34.1 mph
> 40cfm/12.168 sqf = 3ft/sec = 2.0 mph


I did not say a small vent can't reach the same CFM. I said your _ass_umption that the small vent is moving as much air as the big one is not true.

50'/sec(34.1 mph) is easy to 'feel' by your hand, 3'/sec (2.0 mph) is not easy to 'feel'

Like I said, air speed is not the same as airflow volume, just as your recalculation of what I said show.

Again, what your hand feels is air speed, not cfm. You 'feel' the fast moving air and _ass_ume it is 'high cfm' airflow through the small vent, and your hand 'feels' very little air speed through big vent therefore _ass_ume the small vent is moving just as much air because of the air speed.. But really you are babbling with nothing to substantiate your claim.

80cfm through 120mm vent will be 4.0 mph. Can you 'feel' the difference accurately enough to accurately gauge the airlfow?

I seriously doubt it.

And that is what this is all about .. is it possible to 'hand feel' the air speed through two openings and accurately guess how many cfm is flowing.

Again, I seriously doubt it can be done.

And without an anemometer to kinda accurately measure the air speed and calculate the cfm to determine what you are 'feeling' you don't even have a way of knowing what your 'hand feel' even is.

All of your 'hand felt airflow is smoke and mirrors with almost nothing to substantiate your claims .. and every time I refute one of your assumptions with facts or correct your misrepresentation of of airflow, instead of acknowledging what I've said, you ignore it and come back with something else .. or parrot back what I've just said like you did above

I 'feel' I'm talking to a brick wall. I will no longer confuse you with facts.







You've already made up your mind to believe the untruth.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> well yes, but saying that a tiny vent hole CANT reach the same CFM doesn't make any sense at all.
> 
> 75000sqmm = 0.807sq ft
> 1130400sqmm = 12.168sq ft
> 
> say both has 40cfm
> 40cfm/0.807 sqf = 50ft/sec = 34.1 mph
> 40cfm/12.168 sqf = 3ft/sec = 2.0 mph
> 
> 
> 
> 50'/sec(34.1 mph) is easy to 'feel' by your hand, 3'/sec (2.0 mph) is not easy to 'feel'
Click to expand...

this is what i've been saying though, theres barely anything on the 120mm but the gpu slot has a noticeable airflow.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 80cfm through 120mm vent will be 4.0 mph. Can you 'feel' the difference accurately enough to accurately gauge the airlfow?


no, but i know a 800rpm fan will never be 80cfm.


----------



## doyll

Post #2077
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Another hand job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you really want to see how much air is flowing out of GPU versus a 120-14mm fan, take a large light weight plastic bag, like dry cleaning garment bag and seal it to the GPU exhaust and see how full bag is in 5-10 seconds. Then do the same with the 120-140mm fan. My money is on the 120-140mm fan move about twice as much air into the bag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Post #2079
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Yes really, handjob it all you want, it's not even close to being an accurate way to evaluate airflow. Move the amount of air through the vent area of GPU and a 120mm vent , orr 140mm vent and your hand will 'say' the GPU is moving much more simply because it has to move many times faster.
> A 15 x 70mm GPU vent is 10.5sq cm in area. A 120mm round vent is 130sq cm .. more than 12 times the area means air has to move more than12 times as fast through GPU vent to equal same airflow as 120mm vent.
> 
> I've tried explaining this several ways so you can see why a hand is not accurate. I will say no more.


Post #2081
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The volume of air at high speed through a small hole does not even come close to equaling the volume of low speed air through a much larger hole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After all, this is about volume of airflow, not the speed of the air.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> this is what i've been saying though, theres barely anything on the 120mm but the gpu slot has a noticeable airflow.
> no, but i know a 800rpm fan will never be 80cfm.


I keep saying "high air speed does not mean high volume."

You do not know near as much as you think you do. Every time you reply you show less knowledge of the subject.









You are demonstrating your lack of knowledge . Saying things like "800rpm fan will never be 80cfm" shows us a near total lack of understanding about fans and airflow.








Common ceilinig fans move way more than 80 CFM at way less than 800 RPM. The spin at 100-400rpm and move thousands of CFM.









Just another example of how the bigger they are the more air volume they can more at lower and lower speed.


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Post #2077
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Another hand job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you really want to see how much air is flowing out of GPU versus a 120-14mm fan, take a large light weight plastic bag, like dry cleaning garment bag and seal it to the GPU exhaust and see how full bag is in 5-10 seconds. Then do the same with the 120-140mm fan. My money is on the 120-140mm fan move about twice as much air into the bag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Post #2079
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Yes really, handjob it all you want, it's not even close to being an accurate way to evaluate airflow. Move the amount of air through the vent area of GPU and a 120mm vent , orr 140mm vent and your hand will 'say' the GPU is moving much more simply because it has to move many times faster.
> A 15 x 70mm GPU vent is 10.5sq cm in area. A 120mm round vent is 130sq cm .. more than 12 times the area means air has to move more than12 times as fast through GPU vent to equal same airflow as 120mm vent.
> 
> I've tried explaining this several ways so you can see why a hand is not accurate. I will say no more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Post #2081
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The volume of air at high speed through a small hole does not even come close to equaling the volume of low speed air through a much larger hole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After all, this is about volume of airflow, not the speed of the air.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> this is what i've been saying though, theres barely anything on the 120mm but the gpu slot has a noticeable airflow.
> no, but i know a 800rpm fan will never be 80cfm.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I keep saying "high air speed does not mean high volume."
> 
> You do not know near as much as you think you do. Every time you reply you show less knowledge of the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are demonstrating your lack of knowledge . Saying things like "800rpm fan will never be 80cfm" shows us a near total lack of understanding about fans and airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Common ceilinig fans move way more than 80 CFM at way less than 800 RPM. The spin at 100-400rpm and move thousands of CFM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just another example of how the bigger they are the more air volume they can more at lower and lower speed.
Click to expand...

"high air speed" does relate to "high volume".
75000sqmm = 0.807sqf
1130400sqmm = 12.168sqf

say both has 40cfm
40cfm/0.807 sqf = 50ft/sec
40cfm/12.168 sqf = 3ft/sec
this alone says for a fact that you can get the same CFM with sufficient air speed.

you're getting ridiculous, weren't we on the topic of standard 120mm fan? why say ceiling fans all of a sudden.
i'm beginning to believe you're just trying to shove your enthusiasm onto me, i don't doubt you know what you say but this is just your pride isn't it?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> "high air speed" does relate to "high volume".
> 75000sqmm = 0.807sqf
> 1130400sqmm = 12.168sqf
> 
> say both has 40cfm
> 40cfm/0.807 sqf = 50ft/sec
> 40cfm/12.168 sqf = 3ft/sec
> this alone says for a fact that you can get the same CFM with sufficient air speed.
> 
> you're getting ridiculous, weren't we on the topic of standard 120mm fan? why say ceiling fans all of a sudden.
> i'm beginning to believe you're just trying to shove your enthusiasm onto me, i don't doubt you know what you say but this is just your pride isn't it?


This whole thing is ridiculous. It started with settng up a case with good airflow, then you started putting values of what is equivalent to 120mm fan airflow .. with little or no knowledge of how or what CFM and air speed is. .. and that you can feel airflow with your hand and know how much air is flowing. Total garbage that has continued to go down to even lower levels of rationalization.
You keep twisting and squirming trying to CYA for your lack of knowledge or maybe just lack of ability to acknowledge the truth.

I won't post any more about this. Bye!


----------



## pshootr

@doyll You may have vast knowledge about airflow/fans, but this is no reason to be insulting or demeaning towards other people in this thread, you have acted this way toward me also and I let it go. But after seeing you do it again to someone else, I have had enough. If you would like to preserve your reputation around here, then I would suggest not posting when you start to feel frustrated. You should also realize that you are not the only person in this thread who is capable of good ideas and or common sense. We are not here looking for a genius to explain common sense to us. We are here to seek advice and share ideas. This thread should not be a place to have a pissing contest over who knows the most.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pshootr*
> 
> @doyll You may have vast knowledge about airflow/fans, but this is no reason to be insulting or demeaning towards other people in this thread, you have acted this way toward me also and I let it go. But after seeing you do it again to someone else, I have had enough. If you would like to preserve your reputation around here, then I would suggest not posting when you start to feel frustrated. You should also realize that you are not the only person in this thread who is capable of good ideas and or common sense. We are not here looking for a genius to explain common sense to us. We are here to seek advice and share ideas. This thread should not be a place to have a pissing contest over who knows the most.


I do not jump on people who use a little common sense and acknowledge to understand simple things. But when someone does not use this common sense or won't admit a mistake when they are wrong, but instead keep defending themselves with other thing, I tell it like it is.. These last posts were a direct result of someone babbling on without thinking..


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *pshootr*
> 
> @doyll You may have vast knowledge about airflow/fans, but this is no reason to be insulting or demeaning towards other people in this thread, you have acted this way toward me also and I let it go. But after seeing you do it again to someone else, I have had enough. If you would like to preserve your reputation around here, then I would suggest not posting when you start to feel frustrated. You should also realize that you are not the only person in this thread who is capable of good ideas and or common sense. We are not here looking for a genius to explain common sense to us. We are here to seek advice and share ideas. This thread should not be a place to have a pissing contest over who knows the most.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not jump on people who use a little common sense and acknowledge to understand simple things. But when someone does not use this common sense or won't admit a mistake when they are wrong, but instead keep defending themselves with other thing, I tell it like it is.. These last posts were a direct result of someone babbling on without thinking..
Click to expand...

so you're basically just shoving your enthusiasm over us, as you've stated, you don't even try to say if the fact isn't real.
point is, its a fact that you can reach the same CFM even if it has a smaller area to exhaust air from, and i'm saying GPUs CAN at least go on-par with 120mm.

you just keep saying "no never" with no actual proof to back it up yourself, we're just throwing opinions at each other.
now i seriously believe you don't even care if we make sense or not.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> so you're basically just shoving your enthusiasm over us, as you've stated, you don't even try to say if the fact isn't real.
> point is, its a fact that you can reach the same CFM even if it has a smaller area to exhaust air from, and i'm saying GPUs CAN at least go on-par with 120mm.
> 
> you just keep saying "no never" with no actual proof to back it up yourself, we're just throwing opinions at each other.
> now i seriously believe you don't even care if we make sense or not.


Like I said:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> This whole thing is ridiculous. It started with settng up a case with good airflow, then you started putting values of what is equivalent to 120mm fan airflow .. with little or no knowledge of how or what CFM and air speed is. .. and that you can feel airflow with your hand and know how much air is flowing. Total garbage that has continued to go down to even lower levels of rationalization.
> You keep twisting and squirming trying to CYA for your lack of knowledge or maybe just lack of ability to acknowledge the truth.
> 
> I won't post any more about this. Bye!


And I'll say it again.
You can't tell how much air is flowing with your hand.


----------



## X-PREDATOR

You cant tell the numbers but it does give you a rough idea of wether the fans doing its job or not..not every1 has the tools to measure precise numbers...


----------



## Red1776

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *X-PREDATOR*
> 
> You cant tell the numbers but it does give you a rough idea of wether the fans doing its job or not..not every1 has the tools to measure precise numbers...


Like if ping pong balls will stay afloat and ride the exhausted air...


----------



## mfknjadagr8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red1776*
> 
> Like if ping pong balls will stay afloat and ride the exhausted air...


didn't know my balls could help







seriously though I never thought of that...I have used simple things like ribbon and such to see if air is flowing in proper directions...but I'm primitive


----------



## doyll

Mentioned it before. Super light weight plastic bags like dry cleaners use secured to fan or exhaust vent and time how long it takes to fill up. ;D Work quite well. Doesn't give CFM, but we can see the difference in time it takes to fill. Faster it fills the more CFM there is.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You can't tell how much air is flowing with your hand.


Thats why i use the highly sophisticated and extremely accurate fan on face method


----------



## X-PREDATOR

Actualy red is onto something and others..
Take a very flexible 20-30mm thick plastick tube..attach a plastic ping..ball..sorry..

To it by cutting open correct size hole with a string either side with a 2cm gap..hanging from the one end..
Now make sure to have yhis tube no longer than 30cm..(if you look at cases..air starts dropping after first 20cm.so xtra 10cm is to act like mesh..filters etc)

hold the open end 1cm or so infront of the fan and see if itll push the air thru the tube and make the little ball...fly...if it doesnt..its a weak fan..if it does..its all goid
yes this is dumm idea..but fun..


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bertovzki*
> 
> Thats why i use the highly sophisticated and extremely accurate fan on face method


Give us a feeling of airflow / speed, but even then two fans flowing the same cfm can 'feel' very different depending on their flow pattern.

A directed cylindrical flow feels much stronger than one that is spreading in all directions out of fan.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Give us a feeling of airflow / speed, but even then two fans flowing the same cfm can 'feel' very different depending on their flow pattern.
> 
> A directed cylindrical flow feels much stronger than one that is spreading in all directions out of fan.


Yes indeed , i far prefer a fan that directs all it force , airflow in a straight direct direction , the only way it may be useful to have it going out the sides is if you had a front door right in front of it like the 750D does

But if you want good air flow in your case , going from inlet to exhaust in a direct and stead flow of fresh air and exhausting , with no obstruction , then i want to have direct controlled flow of air flowing like a strong river right through my case .


----------



## miklkit

That is a very good description of air flow. It helps me to "see" what is happening if I imagine that the computer is under water and I can watch the flow. I still have trouble imagining video card air flow, but I do know it warms up the North Bridge.


----------



## doyll

The water analogy is good.
But the airflow through a case is more like a slow moving river. .. with eddies, swirls, fast and slow currents. There is little difference in performance from focused fans airflow versus unfocused fan airflow. because the case acts like the banks of a river channeling it from intake to exhaust.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> The water analogy is good.
> But the airflow through a case is more like a slow moving river. .. with eddies, swirls, fast and slow currents. There is little difference in performance from focused fans airflow versus unfocused fan airflow. because the case acts like the banks of a river channeling it from intake to exhaust.


Yes this is true , and that's why i have no HDD trays , both removed , and i have no 5.25" bay , cut it out ! , and also i have no little holes edges on mobo tray or case , because i have lined the entire case with acrylic sheet , so i have greatly decreased all the eddies , the ones that are still impossible to get rid of is the ones created by the fans themselves , especially given their close proximity to each other , their air will clash strongly with each other , this is totally unavoidable unless i had baffles everywhere , hell even a tube from inlet to out let and a passive fan just for cooling the mobo and ambient temp.

But aesthetics has good importance here , so zero baffles , i have a window , if i didnt then i would only design the air flow for max effect with minimal disturbance

In the case of the 750D with my bottom as intake and a 2 fans directly above in the front , there will be plenty of eddies and disturbance , hopefully not all air will be disturbed and some should go direct to the top rad , and the top rad exhausts too , and will be supplied by some air from the bottom and from the rear fan.


----------



## doyll

Eddies, swirls, ebb & flow cannot be avoided. The the way air and liquid flow. I use a combination of component temps and remote temp probe to monitor airflow when setting up airflow to get cool air in all the right places. It takes time as temps need to be checked at different fan speeds, but I think it's worth it. Link in my sig to optimizing cooling shows the simple and cheap tool.


----------



## 8051

Wouldn't a top, rear intake fan act like a short circuit with the rear exhaust fan
(i.e. the fan on the top, back wall of the case). It would seem to me you would
have cool air coming in from the top, rear intake fan and immediately being
drawn out by the top, back wall exhaust fan.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *8051*
> 
> Wouldn't a top, rear intake fan act like a short circuit with the rear exhaust fan
> (i.e. the fan on the top, back wall of the case). It would seem to me you would
> have cool air coming in from the top, rear intake fan and immediately being
> drawn out by the top, back wall exhaust fan.


Yes indeed exactly what i want , i couldnt ask for more , that means i am getting cool air straight in from outside and supplying my radiator with cool air, and the added advantage of air flowing across my Mobo heatsinks first , which are water cooled anyway , so the only real importance here is to supply my rad with fresh cool air , and the rest is coming from the bottom.

Now i am going against the opinion of most , in that i far prefer to have all my case air coming into the case , is as cool as it can be , it is ambient room temperature , and the advantage of this is my case in general will get more cooling inside and my components , like SSD , Mobo ,GPU back plate for e.g.

Most will say "but you get better temps with cool air intake through radiators , and this maybe true to some small extent like 1'c in most cases , which to me is hair splitting and insignificant , I prefer slightly cooler internal ambient temps , i just dont like the idea of exhausting my hot radiator air into the case ! , and id even go as far as to say i can get at least as good temperatures or slightly better if i have enough good fresh air supplied inside , and as you noted , the top rad does get fresh air direct to it , but from inside instead of outside.

Which opinion , view ,is right ,both ! , either is fine , in either scenario , as long as you are getting plenty of good fresh cool air to radiators and heatsinks , components , then that is all you need.

Finally on the opinion of intake vs exhaust through radiators theory , i also dont like the idea of higher ambient case temps heating my entire case inside , meaning also the outside casing of all my radiators , hair spliting and either way it really comes down to good fan choice if i want really good temps , but i have compromised here for aesthetics reasons , if i find it is too much of a compromise then i will change them all to the best fan for the job.

In short it is a short circuit , and my first rad fan up top will get most of this added benefit of cool air , to a point , as i will have the rear fan set higher than the top ones


----------



## doyll

@ 8051
What you are saying is true. This also means the loss of flow from front to back because the top intake is supplying all the air the rear exhaust can remove .. meaning the flow channel from front to back exhaust is no more .. meaning more swirls and eddies in case airflow.

@ Bertovzki
More often than not using the top rear as intake with back top exhaust results in the heated rear exhaust being drawn in by top intake.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @ 8051
> What you are saying is true. This also means the loss of flow from front to back because the top intake is supplying all the air the rear exhaust can remove .. meaning the flow channel from front to back exhaust is no more .. meaning more swirls and eddies in case airflow.
> 
> @ Bertovzki
> More often than not using the top rear as intake with back top exhaust results in the heated rear exhaust being drawn in by top intake.


I have no choice i dont want to intake through rads , so i only have 3 intake fans , rear and 2 bottom , and im not concerned about that slim possibility , if things dont cool enough , then i will redo my whole fan setup, including new fans , and reverse intake and exhaust.

You would have to have very low fans speeds up top for that to be an issue IMO , im sure if i put a thermal camera pointing at air flow out the top then it would be very minimal getting sucked back in off the nearest top fan

One thing is for sure i definitely dont want to do it the other way around , and to me the logic would be the other way around , if you have hot air come out of rear exhaust and then it naturally wants to " push " or rise up to the top intake , that to me is far more likely to get sucked back in.

Always appreciate opinions and feedback , what would you do with this case then , note all walls of case will be lined with acrylic , even the smallest ones like the top vent and the PCIE slots , any tinny cracks will be extremely small , just fan holes only.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## doyll

@ Bertovzki
Your setup is probably as good as it can be.








As long as everything is running cool there is no reason to change anything. .
If you want to play, unplug top intake, or maybe moving top intake forward. Only testing each would show if it helps or not. Often cooling is a compromise .. getting everything at low temps rather than each component at it's lowest temp.


----------



## Bertovzki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @ Bertovzki
> Your setup is probably as good as it can be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As long as everything is running cool there is no reason to change anything. .
> If you want to play, unplug top intake, or maybe moving top intake forward. Only testing each would show if it helps or not. Often cooling is a compromise .. getting everything at low temps rather than each component at it's lowest temp.


Sweet thanks , yes it definitely is a compromise , and there is only so much you can do with the 750D .
If i really wasnt happy with results then i will definitely change fans to one you guys recommend.

And even if i dont seem interested in some advice , it is all very well entrenched in my memory and i do listen , just i have some of my own ideas i want to make work , because im sure it will be fine


----------



## doyll

Airflow is not a black & white subject. There is a huge gray area between them caused by the many variables involved and how little it takes to affect airflows' currents, channels, eddies, ebbs & flows.

This is why there is so much discussion and disagreement over what is best .. there are too many possible 'best' combinations.


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @ 8051
> What you are saying is true. This also means the loss of flow from front to back because the top intake is supplying all the air the rear exhaust can remove .. meaning the flow channel from front to back exhaust is no more .. meaning more swirls and eddies in case airflow.
> 
> @ Bertovzki
> More often than not using the top rear as intake with back top exhaust results in the heated rear exhaust being drawn in by top intake.


Intel's old TAC (Thermally Advantaged Chassis) white paper design suggested
a top exhaust (through PSU) and top, rear wall exhaust. Other than the heatsink
fan those were all the fans the design called for. It also mentioned airflow as being
key to reducing the cooling requirements of the heatsink. The only other requirement
of the design was a sidecover port located over the CPU heatsink.

I suppose I'll be keeping my top rear fan in an exhaust configuration now.

What kind of difference did the twin TY-143's make in the cooling efficiency of
your Phanteks PH-TC14PE? Did you have any problems mounting them?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *8051*
> 
> Intel's old TAC (Thermally Advantaged Chassis) white paper design suggested
> a top exhaust (through PSU) and top, rear wall exhaust. Other than the heatsink
> fan those were all the fans the design called for. It also mentioned airflow as being
> key to reducing the cooling requirements of the heatsink. The only other requirement
> of the design was a sidecover port located over the CPU heatsink.
> 
> I suppose I'll be keeping my top rear fan in an exhaust configuration now.
> 
> What kind of difference did the twin TY-143's make in the cooling efficiency of
> your Phanteks PH-TC14PE? Did you have any problems mounting them?


I think Inrtel is far better equipped to deal with electronics than with coolers. I have a college degree, but I believe practicing what we learned in classroom is often more educating. Too often theory and calculations don't function the way they were thought to when they are actually used. Not saying it's wrong, just too many variables involved. Research and development is as more testing in application than anything else.

The TY-143 give me about 5c additional cooling when at high rpm, but that also means more noise. It's nice having the reserve in case filters are dirty and heat wave temps are in the low 30s', but normally the fans are 1000-1100rpm max with mid 50c for full load temps. The famous Noctua fans look just like the Thermalright TY-140 series fans, and if anything the TY-140 series are marginally better.


Mounting is easy. Either trim the mounting pins on the side that fits toward fan or make some new new ones with zip-ties. Details are in the first link in my sig.


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I think Inrtel is far better equipped to deal with electronics than with coolers. I have a college degree, but I believe practicing what we learned in classroom is often more educating. Too often theory and calculations don't function the way they were thought to when they are actually used. Not saying it's wrong, just too many variables involved. Research and development is as more testing in application than anything else.
> 
> The TY-143 give me about 5c additional cooling when at high rpm, but that also means more noise. It's nice having the reserve in case filters are dirty and heat wave temps are in the low 30s', but normally the fans are 1000-1100rpm max with mid 50c for full load temps. The famous Noctua fans look just like the Thermalright TY-140 series fans, and if anything the TY-140 series are marginally better.
> 
> Mounting is easy. Either trim the mounting pins on the side that fits toward fan or make some new new ones with zip-ties. Details are in the first link in my sig.


Those fans are so similar in design I almost wonder if another manufacturer is making/sourcing
these fans for Thermalright and Noctua.

Theory can sometimes go farther than practice. A math prof. at my college did some
algorithm consultation work to optimize some kind of software application. He and his
superior algorithm succeeded where the code whiz kids and their compiler and code
optimizations failed.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *8051*
> 
> Those fans are so similar in design I almost wonder if another manufacturer is making/sourcing
> these fans for Thermalright and Noctua.
> 
> Theory can sometimes go farther than practice. A math prof. at my college did some
> algorithm consultation work to optimize some kind of software application. He and his
> superior algorithm succeeded where the code whiz kids and their compiler and code
> optimizations failed.


Pure math is another cat entirely. Quantum Physics is so far out there it's almost beyond human comprehension.

I'm pretty sure Thermalright had them out first, but oh well. Thermalright are much lower cost than Noctua.


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Pure math is another cat entirely. Quantum Physics is so far out there it's almost beyond human comprehension.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Thermalright had them out first, but oh well. Thermalright are much lower cost than Noctua.


I just wanted to say thanks for your guide it was really interesting and so is the info on the Thermalright
ty-143 fan.

After reading this thread, I'm thinking of removing the 200mm fan that supposedly
cools the HDD's in my Thermaltake Armor Revo case. I can source more static pressure
from a slide whistle than this fan can on its highest speed setting. After seeing the complete
lack of dust on the filter media covering this 200mm weak willy Thermaltake TT-2030 I'm now
of the opinion that it's doing nothing but consuming power. It has 8 thick struts on the output
side and a max operating speed of 800 RPM.

Do you think making a HDD cage sandwich of two weak willy 200mm Thermaltake TT-2030 fans
would make any diff. in HDD cooling? Or would it just be twice the power usage for nothing?

What about attaching some small 50mm fans to blow directly on the HDD's themselves? Would
that be more efficient than using the Thermaltake weak willy 200mm fan(s)?


----------



## Curleyyy

Posting here instead of a new thread for the possibility that more people will see this post.

I bought 2x CM Jetflo fans about 3 months ago.
Used them for about two months.
One day I boot my PC up and the fans aren't spinning.
I thought something was blocking the fans, but nope.
Reset my BIOS / Overclocks etc, still nope.
Took them out, put them back in, still nope.

tldr; 2x Jetflo won't spin up, but the LED's on the fans turn on.

What do?


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> Posting here instead of a new thread for the possibility that more people will see this post.
> 
> I bought 2x CM Jetflo fans about 3 months ago.
> Used them for about two months.
> One day I boot my PC up and the fans aren't spinning.
> I thought something was blocking the fans, but nope.
> Reset my BIOS / Overclocks etc, still nope.
> Took them out, put them back in, still nope.
> 
> tldr; 2x Jetflo won't spin up, but the LED's on the fans turn on.
> 
> What do?


plug directly to 12v, most likely a dead fan though.


----------



## Cyro999

Heya, long story short i'm looking for a cheap and effective way to control fans. I guess a 7v to 12v switch would do - but i need to control half a dozen fans. What's the best way to go about doing that?

I'm in the UK and one of the best sites for buying would be www.amazon.co.uk (maybe www.scan.co.uk or www.overclockers.co.uk) if there is any particular product to link. Thanks for any input!


----------



## doyll

@8051
What are your HDD temps?

@Curleyyy
Sounds like the fan are dead. Have you tried different fan header or using a moles to fan adapter?


----------



## 8051

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @8051
> What are your HDD temps?
> 
> @Curleyyy
> Sounds like the fan are dead. Have you tried different fan header or using a moles to fan adapter?


Doyll,

My max HDD temps are as follows 33 degrees for my OS HDD, 26 for my 1 TiB data drive and
28 for my SSD Readyboost drive. The 1 TiB HDD has a 92x25mm fan blowing directly on it.

I read somewhere that operating temp is one of the prime determinants of HDD life.

Doyll, if I were to stack my Thermaltake 200mmx30mm weak willy fans (say on the side panel
port), would that increase the static pressure enough to make them worthwhile using?


----------



## Curleyyy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> plug directly to 12v, most likely a dead fan though.


Sorry, not sure how to do that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> @8051
> What are your HDD temps?
> 
> @Curleyyy
> Sounds like the fan are dead. Have you tried different fan header or using a moles to fan adapter?


Tried all the different headers. Didn't think of the molex though, I'll give it a try tomorrow.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> Heya, long story short i'm looking for a cheap and effective way to control fans. I guess a 7v to 12v switch would do - but i need to control half a dozen fans. What's the best way to go about doing that?
> 
> I'm in the UK and one of the best sites for buying would be www.amazon.co.uk (maybe www.scan.co.uk or www.overclockers.co.uk) if there is any particular product to link. Thanks for any input!


Purchase the Lamptron FC5 v2, most stores have them in stock between $30 and $45. Supports multiple fans with lots of power.


----------



## doyll

Those are good cool temps. Most HDDs can run 40-50c with no problems. Two of mine run 34-43c and another runs 37-44c and have for years. (knock on wood)

The last testing of HDD life I read is old, Google's "Failure Trends in a Large Disk Drive Population". But the results indicated temperature was rarely a problem.
http://research.google.com/pubs/pub32774.html


----------



## Spork13

Agree with doyll, in most home PC's (OC'd ones included) heat is not an issue for HDD's. Vibration is the killer. I'd sooner use the cool air on a component that gets hot.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Purchase the Lamptron FC5 v2, most stores have them in stock between $30 and $45. Supports multiple fans with lots of power.


That looks good, but i don't have a 5.25" bay in the air 540; kinda awkward for something like that


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> That looks good, but i don't have a 5.25" bay in the air 540; kinda awkward for something like that


Could use the Aquareo 5 LT USB.
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=WC-011-AQ


----------



## wes1099

Has anyone tried out the EK Vardar FF5? It has pretty nice static pressure and looks pretty solid with double ball bearings, but I haven't used them before.


----------



## sav4

Hi all I have a question if I'm stress testing a oc with a air cooler and my temps get to 86deg c how hot should the copper pipes be above the CPU ?
Should it be hot to the touch or just warm ?
Thanks


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Hi all I have a question if I'm stress testing a oc with a air cooler and my temps get to 86deg c how hot should the copper pipes be above the CPU ?
> Should it be hot to the touch or just warm ?
> Thanks


Should not be that hot by any terms.

If you have a hot CPU though, like AMD FXs, Air off the heatsink should be warm. But I don't think you have an FX.


----------



## sav4

It's a 4770k and cooler is hyper 412slim


----------



## mus1mus

Just as I thought.

Ever heard of Delidding? To lessen that temp?

Anyway, should not be producing much heat though it says 86C. If that is Prime or IBT, I think you are somewhere on the high part of the safe limits. Daily use wouldn't touch that figure.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Just as I thought.
> 
> Ever heard of Delidding? To lessen that temp?
> 
> Anyway, should not be producing much heat though it says 86C. If that is Prime or IBT, I think you are somewhere on the high part of the safe limits. Daily use wouldn't touch that figure.


The reason I am asking is I shifted my build into a new case and my mate that knows more than me said the heat pipes should be hot to the touch if the cooler was working properly.
We removed the cooler to check contact and appeared to be only contacting well on 3 outer edges and not so much on the centre .
We tested the stock cooler with the same oc and was at 95 deg c .
I would of thought I would of got better than 10deg drop in temps with this cooler


----------



## sav4

Oh and I'm using real bench the h264 test


----------



## mus1mus

Nope. Heatpipes are not like that.

Heat Pipe Explanation: https://youtu.be/-Bcgq8bYYbU

Also note your TIM application method.

Haswells are known to show high temps as their Die to Heatspreader TIM is meh!

How much Core Voltage are you pumping to the chip?


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Nope. Heatpipes are not like that.
> 
> Heat Pipe Explanation: https://youtu.be/-Bcgq8bYYbU
> 
> Also note your TIM application method.
> 
> Haswells are known to show high temps as their Die to Heatspreader TIM is meh!
> 
> How much Core Voltage are you pumping to the chip?


1.218 volts
So according to that video the tips of the pipes should be hot not the spreader ?
If so the tips on my cooler are cold during the load test would that indicate the cooler is working correctly ?and it's just a internal heat transferred issue ?
Thanks for the vid ??


----------



## mus1mus

But it won't be that hot. You should base it on the air that is being pushed out the cooler. If it's warmer than the ambient temps.

Haswells are notorious of heat transfer issues. At that Vcore level, your 4770K should not be that hot.









Anyway, it's a little OT in here. Please wait till someone chime in and advise you further on Case Optimization.









Or Visit these guys: http://www.overclock.net/t/1313179/official-delidded-club-guide/0_50

Or a club with your hardware similarities. There should be one.


----------



## doyll

I can't watch the vid, bu if heatpipes are working properly, the tips (ends) of the pipes will be their coolest point .. not even warm to the touch. For heatpipes to work efficiently their hottest point is at source of heat and their coolest is at end of pipe. Ideally we want the ends of pipes to be just above cooler airflow temperature. Any wrmer means heat is still remaining and being wicked back to heat source (CPU/GPU). 60c / 140f is about as hot as we can touch for 4 or 5 seconds without getting a burn, so if the CPU is 60-65c we could touch it, even juggle it from hand to hand and not get burned.


The only place I can fee heat in the pipes is between the block and fins .. and even then they are just good and "warm".


----------



## epic1337

thats partly due to "spreading" of heat, if you look at it in a fix amount of BTU the temperature decreases as you increase the mass.
and the thermal conduction rate is highly dependent on the mean temperature difference between two mediums.
this is partly the reason why heatpipes are still inferior to liquid cooling imho.


----------



## doyll

Here is a better drawing explaining how heatpipes work


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> thats partly due to "spreading" of heat, if you look at it in a fix amount of BTU the temperature decreases as you increase the mass.
> and the thermal conduction rate is highly dependent on the mean temperature difference between two mediums.
> this is partly the reason why heatpipes are still inferior to liquid cooling imho.


True, but thermal mass is limited by it's mass. Once it absorbs it's limit everything keeps increasing in temperature .. like dropping a 2lb lead ingot into a 1 gallon bucket of water instead of a 5 gallon bucket. But drop too many into either one and there will be no water left.

Of course the thermal conduction rate is dependent on temperature difference. That's simple common sense .. and has nothing to do with heatpipes versus liquid cooling because both depend on the thermal difference to dissipate heat.









Edit:
@sav4
Hyper 412S / 412 Slim is not all that good a cooler to start with. Only slightly better than 212 and 212 is definitely not as good as many other mid-tier coolers .. like H5, TRUE Spirit 120, Macho 120, etc. Don't expect too much.


----------



## miklkit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Should not be that hot by any terms.
> 
> If you have a hot CPU though, like AMD FXs, Air off the heatsink should be warm. But I don't think you have an FX.


I have measured the air temps going into and coming out of my air coolers while running IBT @ 1.52 v with the cpu showing around 56C and it is 73F/22.33C intake and 86F/30C exhaust. While idle the exhaust temps drop a bit.

Never thought to actually touch a heat pipe as there is too much stuff in the way.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I can't watch the vid, bu if heatpipes are working properly, the tips (ends) of the pipes will be their coolest point .. not even warm to the touch. For heatpipes to work efficiently their hottest point is at source of heat and their coolest is at end of pipe. Ideally we want the ends of pipes to be just above cooler airflow temperature. Any wrmer means heat is still remaining and being wicked back to heat source (CPU/GPU). 60c / 140f is about as hot as we can touch for 4 or 5 seconds without getting a burn, so if the CPU is 60-65c we could touch it, even juggle it from hand to hand and not get burned.
> 
> 
> The only place I can fee heat in the pipes is between the block and fins .. and even then they are just good and "warm".


At what temp is it warm ?
If I touch the heat spreader I can leave my finger on it at CPU temp of 85deg c does that sound right ?
Edit yer I'm guessing that it can't handle what I want it to do just wasn't sure if it was a contact issue as in my first post.


----------



## mus1mus

Nope, Haswell is the culprit. All I'm saying.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> I have measured the air temps going into and coming out of my air coolers while running IBT @ 1.52 v with the cpu showing around 56C and it is 73F/22.33C intake and 86F/30C exhaust. While idle the exhaust temps drop a bit.
> 
> Never thought to actually touch a heat pipe as there is too much stuff in the way.


30 is warm isn't it?







warmer than ambient it is..


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> Nope, Haswell is the culprit. All I'm saying.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *miklkit*
> 
> I have measured the air temps going into and coming out of my air coolers while running IBT @ 1.52 v with the cpu showing around 56C and it is 73F/22.33C intake and 86F/30C exhaust. While idle the exhaust temps drop a bit.
> 
> Never thought to actually touch a heat pipe as there is too much stuff in the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 30 is warm isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warmer than ambient it is..
Click to expand...

the chip die is too small making heat flux density high, where as the thermal conductivity of copper is too low to cope with it.
then through the heatpipes and aluminum fins the heat gets much too dispersed for any high rate of dissipation to ambient air.

e.g. 56c -> heatpipes ~45c -> alu fins ~40c -> ambient air ~30c


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> At what temp is it warm ?
> If I touch the heat spreader I can leave my finger on it at CPU temp of 85deg c does that sound right ?
> Edit yer I'm guessing that it can't handle what I want it to do just wasn't sure if it was a contact issue as in my first post.


Like epic1337 said above, 85c at core of CPU through CPU cover (60c) into copper block into pipes with cooled liquid running back to copper block (50-55c) and vaporizing liquid (45-50c means not a lot of heat to feel. The outside of pipes going into cooler base are even cooler (35-40c because the liquid is cooler going back to cooler base than the heated vapor going up the pipes.


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> the chip die is too small making heat flux density high, where as the thermal conductivity of copper is too low to cope with it.
> then through the heatpipes and aluminum fins the heat gets much too dispersed for any high rate of dissipation to ambient air.
> 
> e.g. 56c -> heatpipes ~45c -> alu fins ~40c -> ambient air ~30c


What do you think causes his high temps?

1. *the chip die is too small making heat flux density high* - thus should not be registering high temps.

2. *where as the thermal conductivity of copper is too low to cope with it* - thermal conductivity of copper is better than the TIM In(u)tel placed between the DIE and the (guess what) Copper Heatspreader.

3. *then through the heatpipes and aluminum fins the heat gets much too dispersed for any high rate of dissipation to ambient air* - do you mean air dissipates heat fast or heat is just too fast for air to dissipate?

I have an 8-Core AMD FX that I can feed 1.65Volts on the core and stay within 70 on 25C ambient on water cooling. Of course you should say that it is watercooled. But on the other rig, I have an i5-3570K on watercooling too with a 360mm Rad. And that thing registers 85C at 1.3Volts Vcore at 25C ambient.

Which do you think produce more heat? The FX or the i5?

Now, if I can ask the OP to show a Core Temp or an AIDA 64 reading of his CPU at load, he can confirm my theory about Intel's flaw on the Haswell Design.


----------



## epic1337

point 1 is simple, high heat flux density means "concentrated" heat, which means since the raw power to dissipation ratio is too high the overall temperature rises in proportion.
e.g. if the ratio is 2power is to 1dissipation then the overall temperature would double to increase dissipation rate to parity.

point 2 means 177mmsq is too small of a contact, copper has too low conductivity for that small of a contact.

you'll have to look up the relation between temperature difference and heat conductivity for point 3.
by the time the heat reaches the fins, the temperature would've been too low due to dispersion.
in which the ambient air temperature is too close for much cooling, thus detecting 22c ambient -> 30c exhaust.
if the fins were much hotter, e.g. ~50c, then you might see 22c ambient -> ~40c exhaust.

depends on the wattage, intel measures their temps from internal core, AMD measures theirs from the exterior.
the closer you are to the core the hotter it would be, so the temp difference might be just that.
or since AMD's FX cores have a larger die of 319mmsq... you _should_ get the idea.


----------



## mus1mus

I'm not gonna extrapolate further why he's reading temps that way. Provide an SS and we'd be clarified.

People with 212s claim better temps with same CPUs and Voltages. Expanding things will explain his temps reading but not get him to the root of it.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mus1mus*
> 
> What do you think causes his high temps?
> 
> 1. *the chip die is too small making heat flux density high* - thus should not be registering high temps.
> 
> 2. *where as the thermal conductivity of copper is too low to cope with it* - thermal conductivity of copper is better than the TIM In(u)tel placed between the DIE and the (guess what) Copper Heatspreader.
> 
> 3. *then through the heatpipes and aluminum fins the heat gets much too dispersed for any high rate of dissipation to ambient air* - do you mean air dissipates heat fast or heat is just too fast for air to dissipate?
> 
> I have an 8-Core AMD FX that I can feed 1.65Volts on the core and stay within 70 on 25C ambient on water cooling. Of course you should say that it is watercooled. But on the other rig, I have an i5-3570K on watercooling too with a 360mm Rad. And that thing registers 85C at 1.3Volts Vcore at 25C ambient.
> 
> Which do you think produce more heat? The FX or the i5?
> 
> Now, if I can ask the OP to show a Core Temp or an AIDA 64 reading of his CPU at load, he can confirm my theory about Intel's flaw on the Haswell Design.


I'll post some screen temps when I get a chance . See if that will explain it.
Like I said in the first post when I removed the cooler 3 edges were contacting the CPU 1 did not appear to make contact and centre of heat sink contact appeared poor . My thoughts on it when I reseated it and rechecked were the heat sink contact area was not flat but concave and since the contact point for heat transfers is in the centre line poor transfer was occurring .if I get time I'll remove the cooler and take a photo of what I mean .
Thankyou all for your help


----------



## sav4

Here is a hwinfo screenshot of it under load


----------



## mus1mus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Here is a hwinfo screenshot of it under load
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


More than 10C from your hottest Core to the one with the lowest temp. Haswell's fault.









If you have Aida64, you can clearly see what I mean


----------



## vlaint

How do jetflos compare to afb1212me or afb1212h , trying to decide on what to choose between the 3
found a jetflo on ebay at $15 free shipping
afb1212me at $15 on alixpress free shipping
afb1212h $6 + $20+(shipping)


----------



## TheBloodEagle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> How do jetflos compare to afb1212me or afb1212h , trying to decide on what to choose between the 3
> found a jetflo on ebay at $15 free shipping
> afb1212me at $15 on alixpress free shipping
> afb1212h $6 + $20+(shipping)


Keep in mind that the Delta's need more power (12V, 3.24A) than the Jetflo's (12V, 0.4A). So make sure your mobo or controller can handle them. The Delta's are in their own league since they're server oriented. Much higher CFM and much more noise.


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vlaint*
> 
> How do jetflos compare to afb1212me or afb1212h , trying to decide on what to choose between the 3
> found a jetflo on ebay at $15 free shipping
> afb1212me at $15 on alixpress free shipping
> afb1212h $6 + $20+(shipping)


Jetflos are a good fan where in the case will they be going ?


----------



## vlaint

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheBloodEagle*
> 
> Keep in mind that the Delta's need more power (12V, 3.24A) than the Jetflo's (12V, 0.4A). So make sure your mobo or controller can handle them. The Delta's are in their own league since they're server oriented. Much higher CFM and much more noise.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sav4*
> 
> Jetflos are a good fan where in the case will they be going ?


Yep im aware of that I currently have 2 afb1212he on intake in front of a cm storm scout2 case hooked to a lamptron fc5v2 but the other 1 died ive replaced it with a san ace that doesnt put out as much air as the afb1212he . I ve been wanting to buy another afb1212he but they are more expensive and most are R00 (which I have) that does not have rpm sensor. So I want to replace both of them to have equal cfm and static pressure in the front. And the 3 I posted are what im deciding on. And also maybe a jetflo for my cpu fan


----------



## sav4

I had my jetflo as case fans in my scout 2 2 front 2 side 1 up top worked really well and had decent static pressure. Didn't try them on my cooler tho so don't know how they would go.
I think the coolermaster neptun series uses them on rads so should be fine on a aircooler .


----------



## vlaint

Thanks for the input. Ill just wait if theres someone who's able to compare them then Ill buy.


----------



## Melcar

I got Jetflos for case fans and on my TT Frio. They work very well, though they can get loud at full blast. Louder still when strapped to a heatsink.


----------



## Killhoven

Nice thread! I need some help. I have Corsair Air 540 case, AsRock z77 Extreme4 motherboard and I currently do not use any kind of water cooling. I would like to use 3x120mm CM Jetflo coolers (4pin PWM) in front as intake fans and one rare 140mm Deepcool GF (4pin PWM) as exhaust fan. Ideally I would like to set all four fans to follow CPU load/ CPU cooler.

My motherboard has following fan slots: slot1 is 4 pin PWM, slot 2 is 3pin (I can determine speed in bios by 9 steps how fast it goes if certain CPU temp is exceeded), slot3 is 3pin (bios allows 4 static steps, I think from 5 - 12V), a second CPU cooler slot 3pin (works synchronically with 4pin CPU fan) and free power fan slot 3pin I could theoretically use.

So I was thinking:

1. Is it ok to use "4Pin PWM To Dual PWM sleeved Y-Splitter adapter" two times from first motherboard PWM fan slot? One splitter will give two slots, one end will be split again. This way I could make three intake case fans to follow CPU and put exhaust fan into second CPU fan slot. Cable mentioned in next option makes me believe it is ok to feed few fans each ~0,4A from one motherboard slot, but not certain. But if I can, then:

2. By using Arctic PWM splitter cable (ORACO-OR00501-CSA01), I can either:

a) connect the cable with 4pin CPU fan slot on motherboard, CPU cooler with first 4 pin slot and three front fans to rest three 3pin slots (claimed to be able to follow CPU fan) and connect rare exhaust to second CPU fan slot.

b) connect the cable to first motherboard PWM fan slot and connect all four case fans to it. First case fan slot should always follow CPU. Also cooler on first 4pin position should be reference for rest fans in 3pin slots.

Any suggestions please ?


----------



## sav4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Killhoven*
> 
> Nice thread! I need some help. I have Corsair Air 540 case, AsRock z77 Extreme4 motherboard and I currently do not use any kind of water cooling. I would like to use 3x120mm CM Jetflo coolers (4pin PWM) in front as intake fans and one rare 140mm Deepcool GF (4pin PWM) as exhaust fan. Ideally I would like to set all four fans to follow CPU load/ CPU cooler.
> 
> My motherboard has following fan slots: slot1 is 4 pin PWM, slot 2 is 3pin (I can determine speed in bios by 9 steps how fast it goes if certain CPU temp is exceeded), slot3 is 3pin (bios allows 4 static steps, I think from 5 - 12V), a second CPU cooler slot 3pin (works synchronically with 4pin CPU fan) and free power fan slot 3pin I could theoretically use.
> 
> So I was thinking:
> 
> 1. Is it ok to use "4Pin PWM To Dual PWM sleeved Y-Splitter adapter" two times from first motherboard PWM fan slot? One splitter will give two slots, one end will be split again. This way I could make three intake case fans to follow CPU and put exhaust fan into second CPU fan slot. Cable mentioned in next option makes me believe it is ok to feed few fans each ~0,4A from one motherboard slot, but not certain. But if I can, then:
> 
> 2. By using Arctic PWM splitter cable (ORACO-OR00501-CSA01), I can either:
> 
> a) connect the cable with 4pin CPU fan slot on motherboard, CPU cooler with first 4 pin slot and three front fans to rest three 3pin slots (claimed to be able to follow CPU fan) and connect rare exhaust to second CPU fan slot.
> 
> b) connect the cable to first motherboard PWM fan slot and connect all four case fans to it. First case fan slot should always follow CPU. Also cooler on first 4pin position should be reference for rest fans in 3pin slots.
> 
> Any suggestions please ?


I would use one of these
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=231548850092

http://www.terrorbytegaming.co.uk/products/phobya-8-x-4-pin-pwm-fan-splitter-review

The jetflo do draw abit of current on start up


----------



## crystaal

Nice article. By the way you mentioned that the best LED fans were the JetFlo's. How about the Phantek PH-F140SP LED fans?


----------



## Rhadamanthys

Great thread, has given me lots of thoughts. Actually the reason I signed up.

I've just ordered an Enthoo Pro and since I have some fans lying around, I'm gonna test a few different setups for noise and temperatures. Since I might do up to around ten configurations, I could need some help trying to figure out the most efficient way of testing.


Is it necessary to make new fan curves everytime I'm changing a fan (position/size) or won't it affect results so much? Is there a good allround fan curve for all my fans (e.g. one that works for both 140 and 200mm, intake/exhaust)?

What is a good benchmark that brings both CPU and GPU up to load, while not taking too long at the same time? Would Firestrike (Extreme) work?

Should I actually test all the configs both in idle and load or would it suffice to test all of them in idle first, then throw out those that perform really bad in idle? This would also cut down testing time.

It would also be quicker if I didn't have to test different pressure balances. I've read the OP and also quite a few other comments in the thread, and everyone seems to agree on positive pressure here. I know that negative will give me dust, but I've run a negative setup for the last year and when I cleaned it only last month, there was not enough dust in the case to convince me that negative pressure is bad per se. Still, why I'm actually considering negative pressure is that I've read it'll give better cooling performance after having the system up for a while. Now I'd like to know whether there is some truth to that and whether it's worth testing for negative pressure at all if I don't mind the dust. If not, I can just do the positive setups and don't have to worry about it.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rhadamanthys*
> 
> Great thread, has given me lots of thoughts. Actually the reason I signed up.
> 
> I've just ordered an Enthoo Pro and since I have some fans lying around, I'm gonna test a few different setups for noise and temperatures. Since I might do up to around ten configurations, I could need some help trying to figure out the most efficient way of testing.
> 
> 
> Is it necessary to make new fan curves everytime I'm changing a fan (position/size) or won't it affect results so much? Is there a good allround fan curve for all my fans (e.g. one that works for both 140 and 200mm, intake/exhaust)?
> 
> What is a good benchmark that brings both CPU and GPU up to load, while not taking too long at the same time? Would Firestrike (Extreme) work?
> 
> Should I actually test all the configs both in idle and load or would it suffice to test all of them in idle first, then throw out those that perform really bad in idle? This would also cut down testing time.
> 
> It would also be quicker if I didn't have to test different pressure balances. I've read the OP and also quite a few other comments in the thread, and everyone seems to agree on positive pressure here. I know that negative will give me dust, but I've run a negative setup for the last year and when I cleaned it only last month, there was not enough dust in the case to convince me that negative pressure is bad per se. Still, why I'm actually considering negative pressure is that I've read it'll give better cooling performance after having the system up for a while. Now I'd like to know whether there is some truth to that and whether it's worth testing for negative pressure at all if I don't mind the dust. If not, I can just do the positive setups and don't have to worry about it.


Sadly this is pretty much a dead thread now. Some very useful info in it, but also a lot that isn't.

No reason to change fan curve every time unless you are using fans of different rpm ratings and want fans to be running at same rpm at same heat level.

If idle is bad maybe throw out that configuration. But it's hard to get really bad idle temps. Load tells the story much better. I would suggest trying a load test and if it starts to get too hot just stop the test.







There are many variables involved here .. not just the fan placement, but each fans speed has an effect on the airflow pattern inside of case. You might find "Ways to Better Cooling" thread linked in my sig interesting. 1st post is index. Click on subjects of interest to see those posts.


----------



## Rhadamanthys

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sadly this is pretty much a dead thread now. Some very useful info in it, but also a lot that isn't.
> 
> No reason to change fan curve every time unless you are using fans of different rpm ratings and want fans to be running at same rpm at same heat level.
> 
> If idle is bad maybe throw out that configuration. But it's hard to get really bad idle temps. Load tells the story much better. I would suggest trying a load test and if it starts to get too hot just stop the test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many variables involved here .. not just the fan placement, but each fans speed has an effect on the airflow pattern inside of case. You might find "Ways to Better Cooling" thread linked in my sig interesting. 1st post is index. Click on subjects of interest to see those posts.


Thanks for checking back into the dead thread









Yeah I've sifted through your sig already, some useful info in there. Any thoughts on the benchmark issue?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rhadamanthys*
> 
> Thanks for checking back into the dead thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I've sifted through your sig already, some useful info in there. Any thoughts on the benchmark issue?


Not really. I mostly do cooler testing so GPU is idling.

Airflow is such a fickled witch it's hard to test without doing real world use of system. I've seen system that ran really cool under heavy / maximum load that NB would run hotter (60c) at idle unless fans stayed above 700rpm (47-50c), and under full load was 58-59c..


----------



## DaveLT

This is a dead thread because I was, banned. I welcome discussion but on a new slate now.

I don't want to continue old dicussions.


----------



## sav4

Good to see you back Dave ?


----------



## rogergamer

very cool guide! I used to think noctua has the best fans...

could you do a guide on the different bearings too?

also what do you think about the phantek HP series and the prolimatech ultra sleek fans? be quiet fans?

thanks in advance! great read!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> very cool guide! I used to think noctua has the best fans...
> 
> could you do a guide on the different bearings too?
> 
> also what do you think about the phantek HP series and the prolimatech ultra sleek fans? be quiet fans?
> 
> thanks in advance! great read!


I'm sure bearings have been done over and over again but good point. I will write about it in my next post in this thread.

I don't know much about the phanteks HP series but I'm a fan of the SP/XP series (same fans really) and the MP series.
Prolimatech Ultra Sleek fans are downright expensive but only useful if you can use it in the niche they come with. And they're claiming 98CFM with 18dBA @ 1000rpm ... on a thin 140 fan. That's simply not happening. That's why if I wanted a slim I'll go with silverstone with their FW141.

BeQuiet are really not bad but don't be looking for performance with them they're not exactly the best "quiet" fans. Truth is you can't expect quiet and performance together. And neither can you get any of them cheap either.

I had a test in a "silence optimized case" recently and I can very much guarantee that they are all a pile of nonsense when they claim superior airflow. Not only is airflow actually almost non existent and if you run hot graphics cards they are actually noisier. There's one exception though and it's the Silverstone FT05



Lastly, a bigger case does not mean you get better temps. Not necessarily it all has to do with how far your components are away from the fans. With bigger cases you'll need a bottom fan to compensate for the distance as the front fans won't provide the ventilation required to make sure air doesn't stale out in one section (GPU area particularly) at least unless you want one hell of a racket your front fans will be


----------



## rogergamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I'm sure bearings have been done over and over again but good point. I will write about it in my next post in this thread.
> 
> I don't know much about the phanteks HP series but I'm a fan of the SP/XP series (same fans really) and the MP series.
> Prolimatech Ultra Sleek fans are downright expensive but only useful if you can use it in the niche they come with. And they're claiming 98CFM with 18dBA @ 1000rpm ... on a thin 140 fan. That's simply not happening. That's why if I wanted a slim I'll go with silverstone with their FW141.
> 
> BeQuiet are really not bad but don't be looking for performance with them they're not exactly the best "quiet" fans. Truth is you can't expect quiet and performance together. And neither can you get any of them cheap either.
> 
> I had a test in a "silence optimized case" recently and I can very much guarantee that they are all a pile of nonsense when they claim superior airflow. Not only is airflow actually almost non existent and if you run hot graphics cards they are actually noisier. There's one exception though and it's the Silverstone FT05
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, a bigger case does not mean you get better temps. Not necessarily it all has to do with how far your components are away from the fans. With bigger cases you'll need a bottom fan to compensate for the distance as the front fans won't provide the ventilation required to make sure air doesn't stale out in one section (GPU area particularly) at least unless you want one hell of a racket your front fans will be


I asked about the be quiet fans because I am considering getting a dark rock tf and wonder whether I should bother changing the fans

Currently I'm using a raijintek pallas and the fan that comes with it look almost exactly like the FW141 you mentioned, you wouldn't happen to know anything about that would you?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> I asked about the be quiet fans because I am considering getting a dark rock tf and wonder whether I should bother changing the fans
> 
> Currently I'm using a raijintek pallas and the fan that comes with it look almost exactly like the FW141 you mentioned, you wouldn't happen to know anything about that would you?


On a dark rock TF? probably not. I doubt upgrading will bring any improvements. Even if you do it's gonna be an expensive job.

Now that you mention it it does look exactly the same as the Raijintek Aeolus Alpha except that Raijintek is rating lower noise at a higher rpm... Hmm. But silverstone is rating for more airflow. Tricky one this. Could be from the same factory?


----------



## doyll

Copying other company fans is rather common .. and "official" fan specs are always suspect .. kinda like knowing when a politician is lying .. their lips move.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Copying other company fans is rather common .. and "official" fan specs are always suspect .. kinda like knowing when a politician is lying .. their lips move.


Copying is one thing, looking exactly like another is one ... Like for example, thermaltake's ring comes from the same factory as Honghua which makes the Silverstone AP123 AND they also make for corsair.


----------



## epic1337

there should be patents on the actual design and appearance, so long as the product isn't a blatant plagiarism, i doubt they'd bring it up to the court.
plus they still have the market to back them up, the original developers (or the first one with the "famous" application of the product) can rely on the user base to boycott the copy cat.


----------



## rogergamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Copying is one thing, looking exactly like another is one ... Like for example, thermaltake's ring comes from the same factory as Honghua which makes the Silverstone AP123 AND they also make for corsair.


same OEM, just sold under different brands?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Copying is one thing, looking exactly like another is one ... Like for example, thermaltake's ring comes from the same factory as Honghua which makes the Silverstone AP123 AND they also make for corsair.


Okay, which is this:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> there should be patents on the actual design and appearance, so long as the product isn't a blatant plagiarism, i doubt they'd bring it up to the court.
> plus they still have the market to back them up, the original developers (or the first one with the "famous" application of the product) can rely on the user base to boycott the copy cat.


Even with patents on things, developers can easily end up spending their profits from a good product trying to protect the rights patents give them.

Ever hear of a company and product named "SawStop"? The original inventor had two partners; a marketing and sales person an a patent lawyer. The patent lawyer's investment was not money, but his time to keep others from infringing on the patents.

Here is an example of a fan that I think is a copy of another;


----------



## epic1337

its probably a replica, depending on who manufactured it, it might even be the same thing with a different logo.
though on that note, regardless of who has the rights on that design, its left to the manufacturers whether they'd bring it to court or not.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> its probably a *replica*, depending on who manufactured it, it might even be the same thing with a different logo.
> though on that note, regardless of who has the rights on that design, its left to the manufacturers whether they'd bring it to court or not.


Replica
Definition:
an exact copy or model of something
Synonyms:
copy, model, duplicate, reproduction, replication; dummy, imitation;
carbon copy, facsimile;
informal knock-off, dupe
perfect likeness, exact likeness, double, lookalike, mirror image, image, twin, clone

It is not an exact copy, therefore it cannot be same thing with different logo.

To me, it is a "bootleg" "black market" rip-off of original Thermalright fan with the round sides made flat.


----------



## epic1337

good point, its the same design, but with some minor changes.









chinese factories almost always makes these sort of replicas or nearly identical copies.
most of the factories "over-produces" the product (for QC reasons) and sells the excess inventory on the black-market.

e.g. if you order 10,000 pieces, they'll produce 11,000 but only ship you 10,000 "working" units.
thats to say the remaining 1,000 either has some defects or are fully functional.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Okay, which is this:
> Even with patents on things, developers can easily end up spending their profits from a good product trying to protect the rights patents give them.
> 
> Ever hear of a company and product named "SawStop"? The original inventor had two partners; a marketing and sales person an a patent lawyer. The patent lawyer's investment was not money, but his time to keep others from infringing on the patents.
> 
> Here is an example of a fan that I think is a copy of another;


Ya have a link for that?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> good point, its the same design, but with some minor changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chinese factories almost always makes these sort of replicas or nearly identical copies.
> most of the factories "over-produces" the product (for QC reasons) and sells the excess inventory on the black-market.
> 
> e.g. if you order 10,000 pieces, they'll produce 11,000 but only ship you 10,000 "working" units.
> thats to say the remaining 1,000 either has some defects or are fully functional.


Do keep in mind that you do have a reject rate on any fan out there as well. Yes, they do have factory rejects no matter who's making it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> there should be patents on the actual design and appearance, so long as the product isn't a blatant plagiarism, i doubt they'd bring it up to the court.
> plus they still have the market to back them up, the original developers (or the first one with the "famous" application of the product) can rely on the user base to boycott the copy cat.


Often this thinking leads to being another Apple. _Patent trolls_


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Ya have a link for that?


Here is a review.


----------



## rogergamer

Say I switch the fan on my raijintek pallas (the one pretty much identical to the slim silverstone fan) to a thicker fan like the phanteks 140XP, will I get any significant improvements?

Edit:
Also what's a good 120/140mm PWM delta that can be safely hooked up to my motherboard without frying the headers?


----------



## epic1337

thicker fans usually have better static pressure.
as for your question, higher static pressure increases overall effectiveness of the heatsink.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> Say I switch the fan on my raijintek pallas (the one pretty much identical to the slim silverstone fan) to a thicker fan like the phanteks 140XP, will I get any significant improvements?
> 
> Edit:
> Also what's a good 120/140mm PWM delta that can be safely hooked up to my motherboard without frying the headers?


Wire the fan like 1st one or use a PWM splitter with PSU power like the 2nd one. and you don't have to worry about overloading mbo fan headers.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> good point, its the same design, but with some minor changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chinese factories almost always makes these sort of replicas or nearly identical copies.
> most of the factories "over-produces" the product (for QC reasons) and sells the excess inventory on the black-market.
> 
> e.g. if you order 10,000 pieces, they'll produce 11,000 but only ship you 10,000 "working" units.
> thats to say the remaining 1,000 either has some defects or are fully functional.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Here is a review.


Thanks man. Even the heatsink is an outright OBVIOUS thermalright clone. No attempts at even making it look different. Is that a review?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Thanks man. Even the heatsink is an outright OBVIOUS thermalright clone. No attempts at even making it look different. Is that a review?


While there are similarities to the HR02 / Macho coolers of Thermalright, there are many differences. The big notch in back of fin pack, contact heatpipes, no louver slots to guide air in the fins, different fan clip design, etc.
But the fan is definitely a copy of TY-14x series fans.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> While there are similarities to the HR02 / Macho coolers of Thermalright, there are many differences. The big notch in back of fin pack, contact heatpipes, no louver slots to guide air in the fins, different fan clip design, etc.
> But the fan is definitely a copy of TY-14x series fans.


Those are smaller details apart from the notch but the heatsink generally looks like a macho. Square with only slightly rounded corners


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Those are smaller details apart from the notch but the heatsink generally looks like a macho. Square with only slightly rounded corners


Also looks like Ereboss, Hyper 612, Lucifer. Are they all Macho copies too?


----------



## epic1337

they probably took reference to one design, so calling them all as "copies" may not be far off.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Also looks like Ereboss, Hyper 612, Lucifer. Are they all Macho copies too?


They aren't. Those look different enough but how different can you get when you are building a big tower?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> they probably took reference to one design, so calling them all as "copies" may not be far off.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> They aren't. Those look different enough but how different can you get when you are building a big tower?


Are you barking mad?















The fan is almost identical so an obvious copy.
The cooler has all kind of differences .. and you say it's a copy, but others with more in common with Macho are not copies.









But then Asetek has a patent on the pump on waterblock sealed cooler "concept", so who knows what is what.


----------



## SHNS0

Hey Dave wanted to show you this beast right here.
You ever tried one of these?


----------



## rogergamer

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835228010

Any experience with these apevia fans? 6 bucks a pop and performs really well according to another fan thread


----------



## mfknjadagr8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835228010
> 
> Any experience with these apevia fans? 6 bucks a pop and performs really well according to another fan thread


if they are the same ones that come in the apevia cases they are horrible...I'm not at home to check the numbers to see but they look to be the same


----------



## rogergamer

I just realized they are sleeve bearings... abort abort


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> I just realized they are sleeve bearings... abort abort


The quality of a bearing is way more important than what kind of bearing it is.


----------



## epic1337

certain sleeve bearings with proper lubrication can last for years on end, specially for those low RPM fans.
i've still got 80mm 2K RPM fans back in the days of pentium 4, they have sleeve bearings and still alive till this day.


----------



## rogergamer

I see, still on the look out for some cheap PWM delta fans... preferably 90mm, no bigger than 120


----------



## rogergamer

got my eyes on a few AFB0912HH, can anyone comment on the performance of those?


----------



## onyxaltezza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> got my eyes on a few AFB0912HH, can anyone comment on the performance of those?


You can do better, price per dollar assuming:

1.) Noise isn't a factor

2.) You have room for 38mm

3.) You're not looking to plug onto mobo

I literally happen to have 4 AFB0912HH right next to me on my desk lol.

They are there bc I decided against using them.

I think in terms of best bang for buck + pure raw performance (static pressure+CFM))= AFC0912DE

I wouldnt use them myself bc my rig sits less than 3 ft from my bed


----------



## rogergamer

The max size I can fit is 100mm, the case is probably gonna sit pretty close to my face and I’m hoping to run off my MB to minimize wiring...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> The max size I can fit is 100mm, the case is probably gonna sit pretty close to my face and I'm hoping to run off my MB to minimize wiring...


You probably already know this, but if you use PWM fans you can control them with PWM from motherboard and power them directly from PSU.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/0_20#post_22689802


----------



## rogergamer

yeah, like I said I wanna minimize cable management because space is pretty limited


----------



## onyxaltezza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> I see, still on the look out for some cheap PWM delta fans... preferably 90mm, no bigger than 120


You can do better.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> The max size I can fit is 100mm, the case is probably gonna sit pretty close to my face and I'm hoping to run off my MB to minimize wiring...


They are 92mm, I meant 38mm in thickness.

Actually, I DO have 1 of these in my work rig, and its been connected to my Asrock Z75 cpu PWM header for about a year, not a single problem yet.

So since its above a standard mobo's fan header rated amperage, do it at your own risk. But I can say it works perfectly and fully controllable via Speedfan.


----------



## rogergamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onyxaltezza*
> 
> You can do better.
> They are 92mm, I meant 38mm in thickness.
> Actually, I DO have 1 of these in my work rig, and its been connected to my Asrock Z75 cpu PWM header for about a year, not a single problem yet.
> So since its above a standard mobo's fan header rated amperage, do it at your own risk. But I can say it works perfectly and fully controllable via Speedfan.


whats the main difference between afb and afc fans?


----------



## rogergamer

found some FFC0912 fans that can push above 100CFM while being 92mm... probably gonna be super loud though

Edit:
4800 RPM
110 CFM
16.9 mmH2O
59 dB-A
92mm x 92mm x 38mm
PWM
[email protected]% fan cycle (1.5A Max)

any experience with these? seems like quite a monster


----------



## onyxaltezza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> found some FFC0912 fans that can push above 100CFM while being 92mm... probably gonna be super loud though
> 
> Edit:
> 4800 RPM
> 110 CFM
> 16.9 mmH2O
> 59 dB-A
> 92mm x 92mm x 38mm
> PWM
> [email protected]% fan cycle (1.5A Max)
> 
> any experience with these? seems like quite a monster


Those are quite a bit more tolerable than the ones I linked, youll be fine with it. Much more mobo friendly too bc the amperage is significantly lower.

What are you using it for? Rear exhaust?

Just make sure you *dont* get the Senseflow version, bc you wont have control over it/wont have PWM, those versions are thermally controlled.

Get the top version of the 2 below-



Not:



And to answer your question about the Delta series, this is directly from their site:


----------



## rogergamer

awesome, thanks for the help! and I'm using them (most probably) for exhaust

btw, how do you know so much about these deltas?


----------



## onyxaltezza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> awesome, thanks for the help! and I'm using them (most probably) for exhaust
> 
> btw, how do you know so much about these deltas?


If you can move up to 120 Id do it since if its exhaust, there wont be the need for static pressure or any fan that makes that level of noise.

Id highly recommend just picking up a 120x38mm bc it will run quieter. 120x38mm is already somewhat over kill but if you can fit it, why not.

Cost is less for a 120x38mm delta/sunon/foxconn vs 120x25mm cougar/noctua/scythe/etc.

I have no idea LOL. I developed an obsession with taking apart fans and messing around with them over the last 3 months or so..I'll upload a pic of my fan collection when I get home haha. Theyre just so fascinating for some reason.


----------



## rogergamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onyxaltezza*
> 
> If you can move up to 120 Id do it since if its exhaust, there wont be the need for static pressure or any fan that makes that level of noise.
> Id highly recommend just picking up a 120x38mm bc it will run quieter. 120x38mm is already somewhat over kill but if you can fit it, why not.
> Cost is less for a 120x38mm delta/sunon/foxconn vs 120x25mm cougar/noctua/scythe/etc.
> 
> I have no idea LOL. I developed an obsession with taking apart fans and messing around with them over the last 3 months or so..I'll upload a pic of my fan collection when I get home haha. Theyre just so fascinating for some reason.


I agree, the more I research them the more interesting they become, I would fit 120mm's but they would stick out of my case :/ and I already found 2 of the FFC0912 fans for 4 bucks each!

Edit: ****, I just realized two of the spots I intend to put the fan won't fit 38mm fans... ****, looking for 25mm fans now (still using FFC0912 in other vents)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Are you barking mad?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fan is almost identical so an obvious copy.
> The cooler has all kind of differences .. and you say it's a copy, but others with more in common with Macho are not copies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But then Asetek has a patent on the pump on waterblock sealed cooler "concept", so who knows what is what.


I said "cooler" not fan.







If it's the fan then it's a clear cut copy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SHNS0*
> 
> Hey Dave wanted to show you this beast right here.
> You ever tried one of these?


I've always seen them when shopping but never looked into them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onyxaltezza*
> 
> You can do better, price per dollar assuming:
> 1.) Noise isn't a factor
> 2.) You have room for 38mm
> 3.) You're not looking to plug onto mobo
> 
> I literally happen to have 4 AFB0912HH right next to me on my desk lol.
> They are there bc I decided against using them.
> 
> I think in terms of best bang for buck + pure raw performance (static pressure+CFM))= AFC0912DE
> I wouldnt use them myself bc my rig sits less than 3 ft from my bed


HH is a 25mm thick fan HH*E* is a 38mm thick fan.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> got my eyes on a few AFB0912HH, can anyone comment on the performance of those?


Provided it's PWM then ok. Else they are too loud!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> whats the main difference between afb and afc fans?


AFC are usually OEM fans. But usually AFC only come with one one spec and that's the highest of that range (AFC1212DE = AFB1212SHE). All AFC1212DEs if i'm not wrong are first gen afb1212shes. Good at high speed but at low speed. The Rev.C ones are the other way round but more balanced at the top end.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> found some FFC0912 fans that can push above 100CFM while being 92mm... probably gonna be super loud though
> 
> Edit:
> 4800 RPM
> 110 CFM
> 16.9 mmH2O
> 59 dB-A
> 92mm x 92mm x 38mm
> PWM
> [email protected]% fan cycle (1.5A Max)
> 
> any experience with these? seems like quite a monster


I'm already being driven mad at 44dBA much less 59dBA. I say that when I have the PFR0812XHE ...

If I was buying 92mm fans (which I still do just for stock keeping) I buy Sanyo 9S (some go for around 8$) and Sanyo 9ah0912p4h041. The 9S is significantly quieter but quite a bit more expensive.


----------



## SHNS0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I've always seen them when shopping but never looked into them.


You should try them, they put my Deltas to shame. I have the PWM version and they're also very quiet at low rpm.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I said "cooler" not fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's the fan then it's a clear cut copy.


Agree about the fan.
Cooler has more than enough differences to say it's not a copy. For example, Thermalright does not use contact heatpipes.








Maybe sometime we can howl at the moon together.


----------



## rogergamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> I said "cooler" not fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's the fan then it's a clear cut copy.
> I've always seen them when shopping but never looked into them.
> HH is a 25mm thick fan HH*E* is a 38mm thick fan.
> Provided it's PWM then ok. Else they are too loud!
> AFC are usually OEM fans. But usually AFC only come with one one spec and that's the highest of that range (AFC1212DE = AFB1212SHE). All AFC1212DEs if i'm not wrong are first gen afb1212shes. Good at high speed but at low speed. The Rev.C ones are the other way round but more balanced at the top end.
> I'm already being driven mad at 44dBA much less 59dBA. I say that when I have the PFR0812XHE ...
> 
> If I was buying 92mm fans (which I still do just for stock keeping) I buy Sanyo 9S (some go for around 8$) and Sanyo 9ah0912p4h041. The 9S is significantly quieter but quite a bit more expensive.


the sanyo fans don't seem to have PWM control, or are there specific models?

Edit:
the S line doesn't but the GA line does

Edit:
the cheapest AFC0912D I can find is 13 dollars per fan and can't find any cheap sanyo fans....


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> the sanyo fans don't seem to have PWM control, or are there specific models?
> 
> Edit:
> the S line doesn't but the GA line does
> 
> Edit:
> the cheapest AFC0912D I can find is 13 dollars per fan and can't find any cheap sanyo fans....


Buy what you can find/afford anyway.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Agree about the fan.
> Cooler has more than enough differences to say it's not a copy. For example, Thermalright does not use contact heatpipes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe sometime we can howl at the moon together.


Lol contact heatpipes = deed of the cheapskate.


----------



## epic1337

contact heatpipes does add some more efficiency though, hyper 212 evo for example is excellent even amongst mid-tier HSFs.


----------



## rogergamer

how do these look:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400976955111

it's a round AFC0912D with PWM


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> contact heatpipes does add some more efficiency though, hyper 212 evo for example is excellent even amongst mid-tier HSFs.


Sorry, but 212 does not perform "more efficienlyt" than similar cooler with heatpipes through copper blocks. Old Ultra 120A and all TRUE Spirit 120 variants perform better than 212 coolers .. and Ultra 120A is like 8 years old now.


----------



## mfknjadagr8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Sorry, but 212 does not perform "more efficienlyt" than similar cooler with heatpipes through copper blocks. Old Ultra 120A and all TRUE Spirit 120 variants perform better than 212 coolers .. and Ultra 120A is like 8 years old now.


some people herald the 212 as the second coming...is it good bang for buck yes..is it great...not really...


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfknjadagr8*
> 
> some people herald the 212 as the second coming...is it good bang for buck yes..is it great...not really...


Nowadays more often then not there are other coolers as good or better for same or less money.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> contact heatpipes does add some more efficiency though, hyper 212 evo for example is excellent even amongst mid-tier HSFs.


It's not all great. Firstly, it's very loud. _Very loud._

And there's the deepcool gammaxx 400 (Retails for 20$ less here and the one that's on sale here does have a proper backplate) that beats it while being quieter. Way quieter. In my testing it is just an average HSF.

For 5$ more than a 212x (If you want to compare, compare the latest not the original 212) you can have a much better heatsink http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA66Z28G5714 or for 3$ less and a quieter HSF all round http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA66Z28G4331



For comparison the 212 evo http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103099&cm_re=coolermaster_hyper_212-_-35-103-099-_-Product
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfknjadagr8*
> 
> some people herald the 212 as the second coming...is it good bang for buck yes..is it great...not really...


Yes, some people endlessly herald the 212 as the second coming.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> how do these look:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/400976955111
> 
> it's a round AFC0912D with PWM


Up to you man they've got 80mm mounts.


----------



## epic1337

i think you guys missed my point, and aren't those raijinteks contact heatpipes?

plus i didn't even say its the best of the best, being in the top 10 or top 100 amongst thousands of other HSFs makes it excellent.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Nowadays more often then not there are other coolers as good or better for same or less money.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> i think you guys missed my point, and aren't those raijinteks contact heatpipes?
> 
> plus i didn't even say its the best of the best, being in the top 10 or top 100 amongst thousands of other HSFs makes it excellent.


How did we "miss your point"?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> contact heatpipes does add some more efficiency


Isn't that you saying contact heatpipes are more efficent? They are not. They are a cheaper way to make a heatpipe cooler. Some testing claims contact pipe cool better at low heat levels, but at low heat levels it really doesn't matter.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> hyper 212 evo for example is excellent even amongst mid-tier HSFs.


Isn't that you saying 212 is excellent? It is not. It somewhere in the middle of it's size group, maybe not even that good.

Yes, Raijintek uses contact heatpipes .. and they are cheaply built too. As Dave said, the Themis Evo does a much better job of cooling than the 212, and depending on where and when it is similarly priced to the 212.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> How did we "miss your point"?
> Isn't that you saying contact heatpipes are more efficent? They are not. They are a cheaper way to make a heatpipe cooler. Some testing claims contact pipe cool better at low heat levels, but at low heat levels it really doesn't matter.
> Isn't that you saying 212 is excellent? It is not. It somewhere in the middle of it's size group, maybe not even that good.
> 
> Yes, Raijintek uses contact heatpipes .. and they are cheaply built too. As Dave said, the Themis Evo does a much better job of cooling than the 212, and depending on where and when it is similarly priced to the 212.


And looks better, lol. Massively better. Where I am, the deepcool lucifer costs the same as the hyper 212 evo. Now that's good value!

Direct contact belongs on sub 25$ heatsinks the raijinteks are exceptions because they are big.

And my biggest beef with DC is how badly it often spreads. The only direct contact sinks that have impressed me is the Hyper D92 and the Gammaxx 400. That's it. I don't have a themis evo obviously but somehow one with a copper base.


----------



## rogergamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> It's not all great. Firstly, it's very loud. _Very loud._
> 
> And there's the deepcool gammaxx 400 (Retails for 20$ less here and the one that's on sale here does have a proper backplate) that beats it while being quieter. Way quieter. In my testing it is just an average HSF.
> 
> For 5$ more than a 212x (If you want to compare, compare the latest not the original 212) you can have a much better heatsink http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA66Z28G5714 or for 3$ less and a quieter HSF all round http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA66Z28G4331
> 
> 
> 
> For comparison the 212 evo http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103099&cm_re=coolermaster_hyper_212-_-35-103-099-_-Product
> Yes, some people endlessly herald the 212 as the second coming.
> Up to you man they've got 80mm mounts.


how'd you know it got 80mm mounts? and would be perform on par with the AF00 version? (the one on spec sheets)


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> how'd you know it got 80mm mounts? and would be perform on par with the AF00 version? (the one on spec sheets)


Because the 92mm round fans are designed to mount of 80mm holes. AF00 are 3 pin fans.


----------



## rogergamer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Because the 92mm round fans are designed to mount of 80mm holes. AF00 are 3 pin fans.


http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/AFC0912D-AF00/603-1156-ND/1850525
says here it's 4 pin, but I just pulled the trigger on those round ones, hopefully they function just as well


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rogergamer*
> 
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/AFC0912D-AF00/603-1156-ND/1850525
> says here it's 4 pin, but I just pulled the trigger on those round ones, hopefully they function just as well


Oh those. those FC products are oddly labelled anyway.


----------



## DaveLT

I had been working on a new review


----------



## DaveLT

Hey all, I'm done with a new review of the Deepcool Lucifer V2. Check it out

http://www.overclock.net/products/deepcool-lucifer-v2/reviews/7270


----------



## epic1337

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Hey all, I'm done with a new review of the Deepcool Lucifer V2. Check it out
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/products/deepcool-lucifer-v2/reviews/7270


it makes me wonder, whats the purpose of the deep notch on the center of the fin stack?

late reply, i think i removed this on my subscription while i was cleaning up...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> How did we "miss your point"?


the point was contact heatpipes has some additional efficiency, not the part 212 being amongst the excellent HSFs.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Isn't that you saying contact heatpipes are more efficent? They are not. They are a cheaper way to make a heatpipe cooler. *Some testing claims contact pipe cool better at low heat levels*, but at low heat levels it really doesn't matter.


thats the point, it doesn't matter if it has any significance or not, the fact that it can add something at all is what matters.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Isn't that you saying 212 is excellent? It is not. It somewhere in the middle of it's size group, maybe not even that good.


the fact that its within top 100 amongst thousands of HSFs in it's tier makes it excellent.
i don't know what you're misunderstanding in what i said, maybe you have a different opinion of what "excellent" means.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Yes, Raijintek uses contact heatpipes .. and they are cheaply built too. As Dave said, the Themis Evo does a much better job of cooling than the 212, and depending on where and when it is similarly priced to the 212.


like i said, i didn't say 212 was the best.

or is it just you guys abhor the 212 and just bash people who even remotely mentions it being an excellent choice?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> it makes me wonder, whats the purpose of the deep notch on the center of the fin stack?
> 
> late reply, i think i removed this on my subscription while i was cleaning up...
> the point was contact heatpipes has some additional efficiency, not the part 212 being amongst the excellent HSFs.
> thats the point, it doesn't matter if it has any significance or not, the fact that it can add something at all is what matters.
> the fact that its within top 100 amongst thousands of HSFs in it's tier makes it excellent.
> i don't know what you're misunderstanding in what i said, maybe you have a different opinion of what "excellent" means.
> like i said, i didn't say 212 was the best.
> 
> or is it just you guys abhor the 212 and just bash people who even remotely mentions it being an excellent choice?


The deep notch is so you can actually use a screwdriver to reach the bolt. It also acts as a way to break up laminar airflow.

Contact heatpipes don't add efficiency. They suck for anything resembling a large IHS (Like every CPU is?) and couple that with un-evenness it makes them worse. Contact heatpipes are simply a cheap way to avoid soldering a huge chunk of copper whether plated in nickel or what, which if you see the Deepcool Lucifer costs around the same as a Hyper 212X (and it's not like our CM coolers are over inflated for price) it simply makes it bad value.

Yes but I can name you two CHEAPER heatsinks that blows the 212X out of the water while being quieter. Deepcool Gammaxx 300 and ID Cooling SE-203K. FWIW they're a full 20$ than a Hyper 212X and that's not even the prices in china where they get a bit more drastic a full 30$ less. Nevermind that the Raijintek Themis Evo Pro cost about the same it completely blows it out of the water! My Themis Evo Pro with it's copper base cost me a fantastic 15$ (in USD). Try that on for size a Hyper 212X costs 59$ here. Just 10$ you can buy a Hyper 612 Rev 2 and also why buy the Hyper 612 Rev 2 when you can buy a better deepcool lucifer that works passively as well?
By the way, I have a Hyper T4 which is very close to a 212+ and I average 65C on stock clocks with the fan not completely turned up. Even at 1600rpm it makes an amazing racket!

Top 100 is not significant in fact you can even go long enough to include really shill heat sinks. Top 100 ... where? Every single heatsink I've tested edges out the Hyper 212X including the tiny ass Deepcool Gabriel. Yes a freaking low profile heatsink edging out a far taller tower.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> late reply, i think i removed this on my subscription while i was cleaning up...
> the point was contact heatpipes has some additional efficiency, not the part 212 being amongst the excellent HSFs.
> thats the point, it doesn't matter if it has any significance or not, the fact that it can add something at all is what matters.
> the fact that its within top 100 amongst thousands of HSFs in it's tier makes it excellent.
> i don't know what you're misunderstanding in what i said, maybe you have a different opinion of what "excellent" means.
> like i said, i didn't say 212 was the best.
> 
> or is it just you guys abhor the 212 and just bash people who even remotely mentions it being an excellent choice?


Addition efficiency at very low levels maybe, but overall performance.

If it's not a significant difference it's really doesn't matter.

Fact is that 212 is not in the top anymore. And there are not "thousands of HSF in it's tier". Probably not even 100.
212 does not conform to what I consider an "excellent" cooler. What is your definition of "excellent"?

I cannot speak for Dave, but I do not"abhor" the 212. Nor do I "bash" people who mention it, But I will not agree with the notion that it is an "excellent choice" among it's piers like it was in the past.


----------



## epic1337

ohh, so instead of having a hole through the fins they've went with a notch instead.

well maybe "a thousand" is an exaggeration but ignore that since the market is much more larger than we're aware of.
i consider "excellent" as a purchase that does it good and you wouldn't regret purchasing it even by accident or coincidence (e.g. the better choice was out of stock, which isn't an uncommon occurrence).

that doesn't exclude it from being excellent, it was regarded as "best budget cooler" for a long time though not much now.
just because it isn't regarded as best anymore doesn't mean its no longer an excellent choice.
and theres market availability, from what i can see, deep cool, cooler master and xigmatek are the most widely spread "cheap" coolers on the global scale, aside from no-name brands.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Hyper 212X costs 59$ here


That is TRUE Spirit 140 and Macho prices. The are "quality", "excellent", and quiet too.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> That is TRUE Spirit 140 and Macho prices. The are "quality", "excellent", and quiet too.


Yes the macho is close too.


----------



## FaKeeN

Hy, I have the Aerocool Strike-X Xtreme Black Edition case and i wanted to replace the front fan with the Cooler Master MegaFlow 200(not sure if it fits) but after reading your first post((6) Too much airflow, too much noise)i think is not a very good idea.Can you tell me what fans would be better?
Sry for bad english.I also have the Lucifer v2 on a fx6300.Very nice cooler.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FaKeeN*
> 
> Hy, I have the Aerocool Strike-X Xtreme Black Edition case and i wanted to replace the front fan with the Cooler Master MegaFlow 200(not sure if it fits) but after reading your first post((6) Too much airflow, too much noise)i think is not a very good idea.Can you tell me what fans would be better?
> Sry for bad english.I also have the Lucifer v2 on a fx6300.Very nice cooler.


You don't need much airflow with a lucifer v2. Hm, the MegaFlo 200 has 180mm mounting holes but it's possibly the worst 200mm fan. It has basically no airflow and is also expensive when new. Sleeve bearings too.

It comes with 2 120mm fan holes. Install 2 120mm fans because you'll need them since the HDD cages are in the way.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FaKeeN*
> 
> Hy, I have the Aerocool Strike-X Xtreme Black Edition case and i wanted to replace the front fan with the Cooler Master MegaFlow 200(not sure if it fits) but after reading your first post((6) Too much airflow, too much noise)i think is not a very good idea.Can you tell me what fans would be better?
> Sry for bad english.I also have the Lucifer v2 on a fx6300.Very nice cooler.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> You don't need much airflow with a lucifer v2. Hm, the MegaFlo 200 has 180mm mounting holes but it's possibly the worst 200mm fan. It has basically no airflow and is also expensive when new. Sleeve bearings too.
> 
> It comes with 2 120mm fan holes. Install 2 120mm fans because you'll need them since the HDD cages are in the way.


What we do need is for case to flow all heated exhaust air coming from GPU and CPU out of case without heating the cool airflow going to the components.

@FaKeeN, you might find some of the info in "Ways to Better Cooling" link in my sig helpful. 1st post is index, click on topic to see it.


----------



## Mazda6i07

This is a case specific question; but i recently purchased the Nzxt H440. As many of you know the cooling/ airflow properties of the case are not the best. While it is not marketed is a high airflow i do not consider it to be a problem in that regard. So my question is, with the lack of venting for airflow along the front and top of the case which fans would work best within this case? Static Pressure or High Airflow? Low noise is key regardless of temps. I planned on having 3 120's on the top and front all blowing into the case and the rear fan being the only exhaust. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> This is a case specific question; but i recently purchased the Nzxt H440. As many of you know the cooling/ airflow properties of the case are not the best. While it is not marketed is a high airflow i do not consider it to be a problem in that regard. So my question is, with the lack of venting for airflow along the front and top of the case which fans would work best within this case? Static Pressure or High Airflow? Low noise is key regardless of temps. I planned on having 3 120's on the top and front all blowing into the case and the rear fan being the only exhaust. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


Answer to post above yours is a good place to start.


----------



## FaKeeN

@DaveLT i would have paid 12$ for the megaflow,My curent fans are:
2xEnermax Everest 140mm top exaust +Arctic F12 Pro PWM 120mm back+
120mmScythe Slip Stream 120 mm+AeroCool 120mm intake front.
I want to replace the front vents because they are too loud.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FaKeeN*
> 
> @DaveLT i would have paid 12$ for the megaflow,My curent fans are:
> 2xEnermax Everest 140mm top exaust +Arctic F12 Pro PWM 120mm back+
> 120mmScythe Slip Stream 120 mm+AeroCool 120mm intake front.
> I want to replace the front vents because they are too loud.


No point in replacing 120mm with THAT 200mm fan.
You're just going to get very bad airflow.

You seem to have a lot of fans ... Rather, too much. You don't need that much on top (1 will do) and I'll possibly put my finger on the Aerocool fan being the noisy fan or you could, control them with something.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> This is a case specific question; but i recently purchased the Nzxt H440. As many of you know the cooling/ airflow properties of the case are not the best. While it is not marketed is a high airflow i do not consider it to be a problem in that regard. So my question is, with the lack of venting for airflow along the front and top of the case which fans would work best within this case? Static Pressure or High Airflow? Low noise is key regardless of temps. I planned on having 3 120's on the top and front all blowing into the case and the rear fan being the only exhaust. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


There is venting on the front of the H440, just not much. It is built to be "silent" but it is one of those oxymoronic silent cases that ends up decreasing airflow and increasing noise.


----------



## mav451

I actually ran my H440 without the front cover...but ended up moving my gear to the R5 later. The bare H440 was just too ugly lol. Curious if NZXT will address the airflow situation in their next version.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mav451*
> 
> I actually ran my H440 without the front cover...but ended up moving my gear to the R5 later. The bare H440 was just too ugly lol. Curious if NZXT will address the airflow situation in their next version.


All they really need is a bit more gap between the fans and the intake vents like FD did with the R5 and the S. Nonetheless, I have never took notice of that case. The Phanteks Enthoo Pro is a better case for the money.

If you want to fix the H440's airflow issue you can remove all the metal mesh and cut the supports joining the metal meshes. That'll give it a bit of a chance.
As for the fan choice what you want is definitely a "SP" type fan. All "airflow" series fans are all nonsense.


----------



## Mazda6i07

Im not trying to fix its "issue" its not sold as an airflow case. Im just wondering which; the higher static or airflow fans would be better for the case. Like stated above SP fans, so im wondering which SP fans i should go with, i want as silent as possible even if that means a few *c higher temps. And if i were to do anything, i would just put a hinge on the front cover so I could open and close it whenever i want instead of cutting holes into it.


----------



## mav451

^^I got a pair of the Phantek 140SPs (Black) recently - $13.60/ea with the promo code on Newegg.
The default white 140SPs has dropped to $12 twice in 2015 though (Amazon), and I imagine it will happen again sooner or latter. I wouldn't bank on the $10 price from 2014 though haha.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> Im not trying to fix its "issue" its not sold as an airflow case. Im just wondering which; the higher static or airflow fans would be better for the case. Like stated above SP fans, so im wondering which SP fans i should go with, i want as silent as possible even if that means a few *c higher temps. And if i were to do anything, i would just put a hinge on the front cover so I could open and close it whenever i want instead of cutting holes into it.


Does the Phanteks PH-140SP BK or white fancy you?


----------



## Mazda6i07

Since the fans will be used for the case and are practically hidden they could be the color of the noctuas for all i care hah But either one works for me tbh. I was also looking at the TY-147A fans as well, any thoughts on those ?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> Since the fans will be used for the case and are practically hidden they could be the color of the noctuas for all i care hah But either one works for me tbh. I was also looking at the TY-147A fans as well, any thoughts on those ?


I love it! but it's expensive in the states. It's a lot cheaper than the phanteks here and possibly one of the best 140mm fans (Of which there aren't many good ones around). I actually am using it on my 140mm AIO for my server.


----------



## Mazda6i07

Yeah, since they're rather costly I'll be ordering them one at a time hah Buy one or two a month. I Need at least 7 for the entire build


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> Yeah, since they're rather costly I'll be ordering them one at a time hah Buy one or two a month. I Need at least 7 for the entire build


Yea. I would buy the phanteks if I was in the states.


----------



## Mazda6i07

Yea, for $20 a fan im in between on either the Phanteks PH-140SP or the TY-147A


----------



## doyll

At similar prices I would go with the TY-147A. While both are very good fans, PWM control and 300rpm idle speed are the deal makers. I have and use many of both. Obviously all my phanteks cases use F140SP, even replacing the F200SP (not at all impressed with it). My other builds use TY-14x fans for case almost exclusively Only drawback is the 120m mounting and two round sides, but I have modified a fair few to be square and/or have 140mm mounts. That said, a square version of TY-140x fans (TY-147A Sq and TY-143 Sq should be released very soon. A few testing and review peeps should be using them in the next week or two.







.

What fans I use on coolers vary from stock to TY-14x fans .. with a few others like SilverStone FHP141, GTs, some of the new Phanteks PWM fans, etc. sneaking in.


----------



## Mazda6i07

If i do go with the TY-147A I hope they fit in the case without modification. I really don't want to have to cut the edges of the fans.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> If i do go with the TY-147A I hope they fit in the case without modification. I really don't want to have to cut the edges of the fans.


What case and fan positions?
I might be able to tell you if they will fit or not. Sometimes nothing is needs while others all that is needed is to drill mounting holes.


----------



## Mazda6i07

The Nzxt H440; It can fit 2 140's on the front and top. I was going to have front and top being intake and the single 140 on the rear the exhaust.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> The Nzxt H440; It can fit 2 140's on the front and top. I was going to have front and top being intake and the single 140 on the rear the exhaust.


Good plan. But you don't need to have that many actually. 2 will do in the front.


----------



## Mazda6i07

So no fans on the top of the case at all ? I intend on overclocking the cpu quite a bit, it will have the D15 on it, but still, as well as whatever card i end up with 970 or 390x or a new card coming out this year.


----------



## doyll

Dave and I have differing ideas of how airflow should be done. I much refer front in and back out Top vents are usually like dead fish .. they stink.

Link i my sig to "Ways to Better Cooling" has good guides to case airflow.
H440 looks like it will hold at lesst 2x TY-14x fans in front with maybe needing some minor mods to mount them. That is with round sides up and down in case. I don't know if they will fit with sounds side to side. If they will, then 3x will fit in front, and few bullds need more than 3x 140mm fans, at lest not for intakes.

The reason I don't like top vents is if used as exhaust, they draw heated air up from GPU. If used as intake and case sets under a desk they draw heated air from back, sides, etc off of bottom of desk beck into case.

H440 airflow could be greatly improved if you are willing to cut out the grill bars from PSU intake, cut out back to the max, remove all unused PCIe back slot covers, etc. Doing this not only improves airflow, but lowers noise levels too. I almost never use the motherboard I/O shield. Leaving that part of back open usually make a big difference in airflow over mobo component around the CPU.

No back grills means no exhaust fans are usually needed .. which means quieter system.

Combine the above with automatic case fan control so they supply air on demand to match GPU and / or CPU needs and you have a cool and quiet system.


----------



## Mazda6i07

My plan was to run 2 intake on front, and 1-2 intake on top. 1 exhaust on rear, remove all PCIe slots as well. The comp will be sitting on top of my desk so i dont have to worry about reusing heated air. I do not want to modify the case i chose it because it was totally closed. if i am going to modify i would have bought a different case. I will be plugging the fans into the cpu header so they speed up and slow down accordingly.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> My plan was to run 2 intake on front, and 1-2 intake on top. 1 exhaust on rear, remove all PCIe slots as well. The comp will be sitting on top of my desk so i dont have to worry about reusing heated air. I do not want to modify the case i chose it because it was totally closed. if i am going to modify i would have bought a different case. I will be plugging the fans into the cpu header so they speed up and slow down accordingly.


Okay, and where is the 4x 140mm diameter exhaust vent areas for these 4x intakes' airflow to be able to leave the case?








Obviously you do not want any exhaust out the top of front because it will only be sucked back into case. There are not bottom vents, and even if there was their exhaust would be drawn into PSU intake. So you are left with the back of case to flow all the exhaust air out .. and if you do not have at least as much exhaust flow area as intake, your case airflow will be limited not by your intake flow rate, but by the exhaust flow rate.

But if you can get all the airflow needed from front intake (3x 140mm fans), even if the back is not as open as front, some of the exhaust can go out the back part of top vents. I would block the from half so case front intakes flow only back, nothing flowing up.


----------



## mav451

@Mazda6i07 - that $13.6/ea Newegg promo is only for a two more days btw.
I'm assuming you actually want to build this thing soon haha.


----------



## Mazda6i07

Thanks for the input guys. I saw the promo on newegg hah I'm pretty tempted. And I guess I'll just leave the top of the case fan less then and throw 2 140s up front and leave it at that. I wanted to throw one intake up top to blow on mobo. But I guess I'll leave it out. Front to back it is. No top fans. Thanks guys


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Dave and I have differing ideas of how airflow should be done. I much refer front in and back out Top vents are usually like dead fish .. they stink.
> 
> Link i my sig to "Ways to Better Cooling" has good guides to case airflow.
> H440 looks like it will hold at lesst 2x TY-14x fans in front with maybe needing some minor mods to mount them. That is with round sides up and down in case. I don't know if they will fit with sounds side to side. If they will, then 3x will fit in front, and few bullds need more than 3x 140mm fans, at lest not for intakes.
> 
> The reason I don't like top vents is if used as exhaust, they draw heated air up from GPU. If used as intake and case sets under a desk they draw heated air from back, sides, etc off of bottom of desk beck into case.
> 
> H440 airflow could be greatly improved if you are willing to cut out the grill bars from PSU intake, cut out back to the max, remove all unused PCIe back slot covers, etc. Doing this not only improves airflow, but lowers noise levels too. I almost never use the motherboard I/O shield. Leaving that part of back open usually make a big difference in airflow over mobo component around the CPU.
> 
> No back grills means no exhaust fans are usually needed .. which means quieter system.
> 
> Combine the above with automatic case fan control so they supply air on demand to match GPU and / or CPU needs and you have a cool and quiet system.


Yes it will the h440 is designed for 140mm fans and the TY-147 is meant to fit where a 120mm fan mount should go but has the space of a 140.


----------



## Mazda6i07

Yea, I guess i figured out which fans I want to use, and I suppose now I have also figured out that No Top Fans for intake or exhaust either. so Front to back is the plan.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Yes it will the h440 is designed for 140mm fans and the TY-147 is meant to fit where a 120mm fan mount should go but has the space of a 140.


Wrong!
Cases are design to use 120mm fans with 105mm mounting holes or 140mm fans with 124.5mm mounting holes. They are not "designed to mount 140mm fans with 105mm mounting holes.

TY-147 fans were not designed t fit where 120mm fan mount should go. They were not designed to be used to replace 120mm fans either. TY-14x fans were designed to be used on coolers, not cases.
Case in point
Just happens t be a H440


As you can see the bottom 140mm fans fits all 4 of the 105mm holes in case, but 2nd fan is only matching up with one pair of 105mm holes in case. A 3rd 140mm with 105mm mounts can not be mounted in the remaining space.

I know H440 does not list 3x 140mm front fans, but it looks like they may fit if mounting holes were drilled.


----------



## Mazda6i07

Nice pic! As long as i can fit 2 140's up front I'll be happy, it comes with 3 120's but that will be getting changed.


----------



## doyll

3x 120mm fans give about the same performance and noise levels as 2x 140mm fans. 140mm fans may be slightly quieter, but probably not enough for you to hear the difference.


----------



## Mazda6i07

I don't know how good the fans are that came with the case, but I'm willing to bet they're not that great, so i'll be swapping them for a pair of those TY-147's

In reference to that pic you posted, should i block off the giant empty area above those 140s or leave it open ?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Wrong!
> Cases are design to use 120mm fans with 105mm mounting holes or 140mm fans with 124.5mm mounting holes. They are not "designed to mount 140mm fans with 105mm mounting holes.
> 
> TY-147 fans were not designed t fit where 120mm fan mount should go. They were not designed to be used to replace 120mm fans either. TY-14x fans were designed to be used on coolers, not cases.
> Case in point
> Just happens t be a H440
> 
> 
> As you can see the bottom 140mm fans fits all 4 of the 105mm holes in case, but 2nd fan is only matching up with one pair of 105mm holes in case. A 3rd 140mm with 105mm mounts can not be mounted in the remaining space.
> 
> I know H440 does not list 3x 140mm front fans, but it looks like they may fit if mounting holes were drilled.


You didn't have to absolutely antagonize everyone out there do you?

Check out thermalright's very own webpage http://www.thermalright.com/html/products/fan/ty-147.html?panel=2

You said didn't you it may need minor mods. Anyway the H440 is design to fit 2 140mm fans in the front it will have to be taller to fit 3. On the very top front position and another one on the very bottom it will be fine.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> 3x 120mm fans give about the same performance and noise levels as 2x 140mm fans. 140mm fans may be slightly quieter, but probably not enough for you to hear the difference.


You have to consider that although 140mm fans provide more airflow they also have less specific pressure so 140mm fans usually do their best if there is less restriction, same reason why only 200mm fans work on nearly zero restriction. The front baffle on the H440 presents a lot of restriction. Some exceptions are to be made though
Compare these two :
http://www.phanteks.com/PH-F120MP.html
http://www.phanteks.com/PH-F140MP.html
These are the only two most refined fans on the market that have legibility between the same family of 12cm and 14cm. It does produce more airflow but you can install 2 not 3. Not that you'll need anymore than 2 of course.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> I don't know how good the fans are that came with the case, but I'm willing to bet they're not that great, so i'll be swapping them for a pair of those TY-147's
> 
> In reference to that pic you posted, should i block off the giant empty area above those 140s or leave it open ?


It won't be an issue. But why not buy the phanteks instead?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> You didn't have to absolutely antagonize everyone out there do you?
> 
> Check out thermalright's very own webpage http://www.thermalright.com/html/products/fan/ty-147.html?panel=2
> 
> You said didn't you it may need minor mods. Anyway the H440 is design to fit 2 140mm fans in the front it will have to be taller to fit 3. On the very top front position and another one on the very bottom it will be fine.
> You have to consider that although 140mm fans provide more airflow they also have less specific pressure so 140mm fans usually do their best if there is less restriction, same reason why only 200mm fans work on nearly zero restriction. The front baffle on the H440 presents a lot of restriction. Some exceptions are to be made though
> Compare these two :
> http://www.phanteks.com/PH-F120MP.html
> http://www.phanteks.com/PH-F140MP.html
> These are the only two most refined fans on the market that have legibility between the same family of 12cm and 14cm. It does produce more airflow but you can install 2 not 3. Not that you'll need anymore than 2 of course.


Antagonize ?
Saying "wrong" when false statements are made is not antagonizing.
Antagonizing is making the false statement in the first place.









"Question : If I want to use my TY-141 as a case/system fan, how should I install it on my case?
Answer : The TY-14x series fan (TY-140/141/147) uses the same mounting hole form factor as 120mm fans. However, the actual frame of the T*Y-14x series fan is larger than a 120mm fan*. So please use the following steps to confirm compatibility."
Their image clearly shows a 140mm fan mounting with a 120mm fan mounting centered in it.
While H440 can mount both 120 and 140mm fans, the mounting layout is even close to the Thermalright example.
 
These are actual facts, not generalizations posted as facts.

No idea what the links to Phanteks are supposed to prove, but what is extremely clear is the 140mm version is better than the 120mm version.
At full speed there is only 0.3dBA difference (human ear needs about 3dBA to hear a change) and 0.1mm H20 difference (0.00014 PSI), but the 140mm fan has 14.8cfm more airflow .. 28% more airflow.
So yeah, the Phanteks specs. verify what I said.
At a guess with little modification in front (drill a few mounting holes) 3x 140mm fans will fit.

3x 140mm fans are probably needed; 1x 140mm to match airflow of 140 on CPU cooler, more than 1x 140mm fan to match airflow of 2x or 3x 90mm fans on GPU. Any addional airlfow 3x 140mm fans would provide would most likely be needed to 'push' the component heated exhaust back and out of case. Any less intake airflow will most likely result in component eating their own heated exhaust.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mazda6i07*
> 
> I don't know how good the fans are that came with the case, but I'm willing to bet they're not that great, so i'll be swapping them for a pair of those TY-147's
> 
> In reference to that pic you posted, should i block off the giant empty area above those 140s or leave it open ?


I honestly think H440 is rather poorly designed. Even with 2x or 3x front fans (120 or 140) the vent area supplying them with air is too small. The back of case is not designed to flow the amount of air you need to flow. The top venting is pretty much unusable.

I do agree with Dave here, why so set on TY-147A rather than PH-F140MP or if you want 120mm mounting the PH-F140HP II?

I prefer the TY-147A, but Phanteks are good too. I have 3x Phanteks cases and all are running their 140mm fans.








If you haven't bought our case yet, I would suggest getting something like a Enthoo Luxe, Enthoo Pro, Define R5 or Define S .. because without modifying the H440 you will be fighting a loosing airflow battle.


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Antagonize ?
> Saying "wrong" when false statements are made is not antagonizing.
> Antagonizing is making the false statement in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Question : If I want to use my TY-141 as a case/system fan, how should I install it on my case?
> Answer : The TY-14x series fan (TY-140/141/147) uses the same mounting hole form factor as 120mm fans. However, the actual frame of the T*Y-14x series fan is larger than a 120mm fan*. So please use the following steps to confirm compatibility."
> Their image clearly shows a 140mm fan mounting with a 120mm fan mounting centered in it.
> While H440 can mount both 120 and 140mm fans, the mounting layout is even close to the Thermalright example.
> 
> These are actual facts, not generalizations posted as facts.
> 
> No idea what the links to Phanteks are supposed to prove, but what is extremely clear is the 140mm version is better than the 120mm version.
> At full speed there is only 0.3dBA difference (human ear needs about 3dBA to hear a change) and 0.1mm H20 difference (0.00014 PSI), but the 140mm fan has 14.8cfm more airflow .. 28% more airflow.
> So yeah, the Phanteks specs. verify what I said.
> At a guess with little modification in front (drill a few mounting holes) 3x 140mm fans will fit.
> 
> 3x 140mm fans are probably needed; 1x 140mm to match airflow of 140 on CPU cooler, more than 1x 140mm fan to match airflow of 2x or 3x 90mm fans on GPU. Any addional airlfow 3x 140mm fans would provide would most likely be needed to 'push' the component heated exhaust back and out of case. Any less intake airflow will most likely result in component eating their own heated exhaust.


You are doing so, you could have put it in a easier way I never said anything wrong about it fitting 3x 140s I merely said it's easily possible to put 2x 140s with the frame of 120s, albeit one at the top and one at the bottom. Do I really need to spell it out word by word to get to you to stop you from antagonizing me? I thought I took a break from OCN and here when I'm back you are doing what you do best again.

Again, you missed my point. I am saying these are the best 120-140mm fan series in the market and all you get is just 8%. Which isn't a lot given that it's A) actually more expensive and you can't optimize as well as 120s in most cases B) most 140 are weaker than their 120 counterpart and at the *same* pressure they are often, worse. But 2x 140s is cheaper than 3x120s but if you can't get 3x140s (Which you won't since the phanteks ph-f140mp are great fans and no problem since they are really 14cm fans)
I only bought the TY-147 because the 140HP is twice the price even if it lacks static pressure ratings and it would have been better than that deepcool gf140 fan.

In that case 1 top fan will do the job I suppose? GPUs by the way most of them exhaust back in the case so you would need the rear fan as exhaust so no worries about using a top fan slot near the VRMs as exhaust. In that case, it's probably better to use 3x120s if you can't get 3x140s. Which won't be a problem for the PH-F140MP.
Anyway you can't install 3x 140s in the h440 in the front ...
What I've seen with phanteks cases is they make the 120mm mount as long as the 140mm mount.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> You are doing so, you could have put it in a easier way I never said anything wrong about it fitting 3x 140s I merely said it's easily possible to put 2x 140s with the frame of 120s, albeit one at the top and one at the bottom. Do I really need to spell it out word by word to get to you to stop you from antagonizing me? I thought I took a break from OCN and here when I'm back you are doing what you do best again.
> 
> Again, you missed my point. I am saying these are the best 120-140mm fan series in the market and all you get is just 8%. Which isn't a lot given that it's A) actually more expensive and you can't optimize as well as 120s in most cases B) most 140 are weaker than their 120 counterpart and at the *same* pressure they are often, worse. But 2x 140s is cheaper than 3x120s but if you can't get 3x140s (Which you won't since the phanteks ph-f140mp are great fans and no problem since they are really 14cm fans)
> I only bought the TY-147 because the 140HP is twice the price even if it lacks static pressure ratings and it would have been better than that deepcool gf140 fan.
> 
> In that case 1 top fan will do the job I suppose? GPUs by the way most of them exhaust back in the case so you would need the rear fan as exhaust so no worries about using a top fan slot near the VRMs as exhaust. In that case, it's probably better to use 3x120s if you can't get 3x140s. Which won't be a problem for the PH-F140MP.
> Anyway you can't install 3x 140s in the h440 in the front ...
> What I've seen with phanteks cases is they make the 120mm mount as long as the 140mm mount.


I'm not buying your "victim" story mate.

You stated half truths and I stated the complete truth of fit and finish. While you and I know far more than we post, other do not. This means we have to give them all the information .. all of the potential grey areas that can and will cause them problems .. which your condensed black and white completely skips.

Now you reply "only 8%" when it is 28%.








28% is a lot of difference!

Years back most case were optimized for 120mm fans. That is no longer true. There are at least as many optimized for 140mm as 120mm.

140mm fans are just as good and often better than 120mm fans. This is a big part of why 140mm fans are so popular .. and becoming more popular every day.

I do not understand much of your post, so will not reply to it.
TY-147 and TY-147A fans have several independent tests showing their pressure rating, P-Q curves, etc. Several are int the TY-147A thread
http://www.overclock.net/t/1578931/thermalright-ty-147a-fan-test/0_20

FYI, Thermalright is about to release TY-147A Sq and TY-143 Sq .. Same as others but in square housings.


----------



## DaveLT

-snip-


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Arguing with you is like making a stickman argument. I mistyped 28% as 8% but DO KEEP IN MIND that the H440 does not accept 3x140 in front no matter what you do. I'm sure if I wrote nonsense I wouldn't be a writer for a *big technology website*.
> And 2x140 against 2x120 is still a *28% gain no matter what*


You did not just "mistypd 28% as 8%" you typed "is just 8%." 28% difference is not a "is just". At least I would not type "is just 28%" .. because 28% is s significant difference. 3x 120MP fans is 159.9cfm free airflow. 2x 140MP fans is 136.2cfm free airflow. That is 15% less free airlfow from 2x 140MP fans than 3x 120MP fans. So yes, 3x 120MPs is better than 2x 140MPs, but that is what your post seemed to be saying. Meaning it really has no relevance to your original complaint.

As for your being a writer for a "big technology website", I don't know what site you are referring to or if it is infact a "big technology website." PM me the name of site if you want.

I know you are knowledgeable. But like I said earlier, we need to make sure the reading here get all the facts. Presenting only part of them can (and does) lead them now the road with rose colored glasses. And when the glasses come off they have spend time, money and energy only to find out the things that were not said have got them into a pickle. Therefore I would much rather error on the side of over-explaining the simplifying.

2x 120MP versus 2x 140MP?? where did that come from. You posted "is just 8%".


----------



## DaveLT

-snip-


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Oh my god ...


Indeed.
Saying "is just 8%" is a typo of 28%.
Really is crazy, isn't it?









Or do you think 28% is not a significant difference?


----------



## DaveLT

-snip-


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> That was pointed at you. I can't be bothered to argue with you.


I try to have discussions about things.
You come back with unfounded rational and then when proven wrong argue try to get out of if with even less logic and rational rather than admit it .. or rarely admitting it

Sayin "only 8%" is a typo is a perfect example .. lack of logic too. "only 28%" is illogical. So either you miss-read 28%, fat-fingers o-n-l-y and missed 2 completely, or you fubar'ed it. Either way, you try to make it look like I"m the bad guy when you did it, whichever way it was done,


----------



## claes

Gosh, you two









P.S.
antagonize |anˈtagəˌnīz|
verb [ with obj. ]
cause (someone) to become hostile: he antagonized many colleagues during the budget wars.
• Biochemistry (of a substance) act as an antagonist of (a substance or its action): two other drugs antagonized the antidepressantlike effect.
ORIGIN mid 18th cent. (in the sense 'struggle against'): from Greek antagōnizesthai, from ant- 'against' + agōnizesthai 'struggle' (from agōn 'contest').

antagonize
verb
have I done something to antagonize you? arouse hostility in, alienate; anger, annoy, provoke, vex, irritate; rub the wrong way; informal aggravate, rile, needle, rattle someone's cage, get someone's back up. ANTONYMS pacify, placate.


----------



## DaveLT

-snip-


----------



## NotReadyYet

I just switched cases coming from a LanBoy Air to a Corsair Air 540. Obviously, my temps have gone up because I went from an all-mesh case to an enclosed case.

I was hoping you could give me advice as to which would be the *most ideal* setup for my rig.

I currently have three 120mm Gelid Solutions Gamer LED fans in the front set as intakes. On the top, I have a Corsair H100i GTX set up as an exhaust with two 120mm Gentle Typhoon fans (1850rpm) in pull.

On the top in the back of the case, I have one 120mm Gelid Solutions Gamer LED fan setup as exhaust.

So that leaves me with 3 intake and 3 exhaust.

Under load, I think my temps for the most part are ok, but I would like to shave some degrees off if I can. I'm open to suggestions!

CPU Idle: 18C to 25C on idle

CPU Load: 53C is average after 15 minutes of Prime95 in blend

Motherboard Temp: 38C on Average

GPU: About 43C idle and 72C under load with benchmarking

I'm open to switching/swapping fans around or even buying new fans entirely. Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NotReadyYet*
> 
> I just switched cases coming from a LanBoy Air to a Corsair Air 540. Obviously, my temps have gone up because I went from an all-mesh case to an enclosed case.
> 
> I was hoping you could give me advice as to which would be the *most ideal* setup for my rig.
> 
> I currently have three 120mm Gelid Solutions Gamer LED fans in the front set as intakes. On the top, I have a Corsair H100i GTX set up as an exhaust with two 120mm Gentle Typhoon fans (1850rpm) in pull.
> 
> On the top in the back of the case, I have one 120mm Gelid Solutions Gamer LED fan setup as exhaust.
> 
> So that leaves me with 3 intake and 3 exhaust.
> 
> Under load, I think my temps for the most part are ok, but I would like to shave some degrees off if I can. I'm open to suggestions!
> 
> CPU Idle: 18C to 25C on idle
> CPU Load: 53C is average after 15 minutes of Prime95 in blend
> 
> Motherboard Temp: 38C on Average
> 
> GPU: About 43C idle and 72C under load with benchmarking
> 
> I'm open to switching/swapping fans around or even buying new fans entirely. Thanks in advance for your help!


Those are pretty good temperatures already and the 540 is rather open for airflow as well.

Well, 980 Tis do run hot and 72C I suppose is with max OC or boost? Seeing that you run it at 1500MHz higher temps are kind of expected. Not to put you down or anything but it's decent already.
Actually since the two fans on the AIO are a lot weaker (Well, it is a radiator after all) a rear fan helps for GPUs as it stops air from being sucked to the top. Rather unconventional way would be to use bottom vents to exhaust graphics cards but unfortunately GPUs are facing the wrong way to do that and 540 doesn't have a bottom vent.

Hope that helps. TL;DR install a rear 140mm fan.


----------



## NotReadyYet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> Those are pretty good temperatures already and the 540 is rather open for airflow as well.
> 
> Well, 980 Tis do run hot and 72C I suppose is with max OC or boost? Seeing that you run it at 1500MHz higher temps are kind of expected. Not to put you down or anything but it's decent already.
> Actually since the two fans on the AIO are a lot weaker (Well, it is a radiator after all) a rear fan helps for GPUs as it stops air from being sucked to the top. Rather unconventional way would be to use bottom vents to exhaust graphics cards but unfortunately GPUs are facing the wrong way to do that and 540 doesn't have a bottom vent.
> 
> Hope that helps. TL;DR install a rear 140mm fan.


Thank you. Just to clarify, I should replace my rear 120mm exhaust with a 140mm exhaust?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NotReadyYet*
> 
> Thank you. Just to clarify, I should replace my rear 120mm exhaust with a 140mm exhaust?


In your original post you did not state if you have a rear 120 or 140


----------



## NotReadyYet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> In your original post you did not state if you have a rear 120 or 140


Yeah I have a rear 120 mm exhaust. Should I set it as intake or what should I do?


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NotReadyYet*
> 
> Yeah I have a rear 120 mm exhaust. Should I set it as intake or what should I do?


I would probably swap for a 140 and set it as a exhaust. Keeps the case's temps down.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NotReadyYet*
> 
> Yeah I have a rear 120 mm exhaust. Should I set it as intake or what should I do?


I think we've talked about this before. Without monitoring airflow temperatures inside your case (especially component intake air temps) just adding and changing fans tells us little. Yes, there is a direct correlation between component intake air temp and component temp. But knowing the temperature difference between room and component intake gives us much additional information. If the component intake air temp and room is more then 4-5c, IMHO the case airflow needs to be worked on to remove heated air before it can mix with cool air going into components.


----------



## Curleyyy

Wondering what changes I could make in regards to the fan configuration.

Exhaust: 2x 120mm fans on top (Corsair H100i radiator)
Intake: 1x 200mm fan on the front that I want to switch to 2x 120mm fans.
Exhaust: 1x 120mm fan on the rear.
Intake: 1x 120mm fan on the PSU.


----------



## CastleBravo

I've always thought that setups with a top mount exhaust radiator benefit from an abundance of intake more than anything else. Switching the front fan for 2x120mm is a good idea, but you could take it a step further by doing a 120mm fan mount mod in your 5.25 bays assuming you aren't using three of them.


----------



## epic1337

rear intake could work, test out the temperature difference if you got the time.

also, if you flip the PSU to intake air from inside the case, it'll create a cold draft that would flow through the lower portion of the case, this is advantageous to some GPUs.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Curleyyy*
> 
> Wondering what changes I could make in regards to the fan configuration.
> 
> Exhaust: 2x 120mm fans on top (Corsair H100i radiator)
> Intake: 1x 200mm fan on the front that I want to switch to 2x 120mm fans.
> Exhaust: 1x 120mm fan on the rear.
> Intake: 1x 120mm fan on the PSU.


What are your load temps now?
PSU fan has no relevance on case airflow. It is it's own little airflow system.
This means you have 3x 120mm exhaust with only the 200mm fan supplying case airflow.
You need to somehow have at least 3x 120mm intakes. We want more intake fan than exhaust, and we want intakes to have more intake flow potential then exhaust fan have. This means filtered intakes supply all air going into case, meaning less dust problems.

Ideally the intake air to radiator should not be contaminated by heated exhaust coming off of GPU cooler.

Corsair specs
Fan Mount Locations
Front: (x1) 200mm
Top: . .(x1) 200mm or (x2) 120/140mm
Rear: . (x1) 120mm

Not a lot of options.

Your front 200mm intake fan can be changed to 2x 120mm fans?
Maybe use 3x of your 5.25 front bays as an intake. This airflow would go directly to radiator.


----------



## Frantik3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DaveLT*
> 
> The only LED fan to buy is a CM Jetflo 120
> 
> The only one that breaks this tradition is the very fantastic CM Jetflo 120.


Finally..I was only reading comments about how much noise they make but eventually I got it and like it so much.. And when ocing and benching you crank up the speed and all is good







So much airflow


----------



## DaveLT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Frantik3*
> 
> Finally..I was only reading comments about how much noise they make but eventually I got it and like it so much.. And when ocing and benching you crank up the speed and all is good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So much airflow


As LED fans go they are the best, sure they aren't exactly quiet but the airflow makes up for it.

Although I got sick of LED fans already and I'm using Deltas and Silencios now


----------



## Curleyyy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CastleBravo*
> 
> I've always thought that setups with a top mount exhaust radiator benefit from an abundance of intake more than anything else. Switching the front fan for 2x120mm is a good idea, but you could take it a step further by doing a 120mm fan mount mod in your 5.25 bays assuming you aren't using three of them.


Top mount rad is exhausting air already. Pretty sure it helps with the airflow (be it positive or negative, I can't remember, need more reading)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *epic1337*
> 
> rear intake could work, test out the temperature difference if you got the time.
> 
> also, if you flip the PSU to intake air from inside the case, it'll create a cold draft that would flow through the lower portion of the case, this is advantageous to some GPUs.


Rear intake might help cpu temps, especially until I do a push pull config for it. The stock fans on the rad don't move much air.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What are your load temps now?
> PSU fan has no relevance on case airflow. It is it's own little airflow system.
> This means you have 3x 120mm exhaust with only the 200mm fan supplying case airflow.
> You need to somehow have at least 3x 120mm intakes. We want more intake fan than exhaust, and we want intakes to have more intake flow potential then exhaust fan have. This means filtered intakes supply all air going into case, meaning less dust problems.
> 
> Ideally the intake air to radiator should not be contaminated by heated exhaust coming off of GPU cooler.
> 
> Corsair specs
> Fan Mount Locations
> Front: (x1) 200mm
> Top: . .(x1) 200mm or (x2) 120/140mm
> Rear: . (x1) 120mm


Not a lot of options.

Your front 200mm intake fan can be changed to 2x 120mm fans?
Maybe use 3x of your 5.25 front bays as an intake. This airflow would go directly to radiator.

Load temps are, if I can recall:
cpu freq: 4.5ghz
volt: 1.320v (can be lower, still testing, do it later)
cpu temp: 68c - 72c
ram isn't overclocked, just factory 1866. 9-10-9-27-1

Yeah, PSU's intake but only for the PSU itself, just flows right out again. I'm thinking about upgrading the fan for it, though the stock one is pretty decent from my readings.

I'm planning on moving the HDD cage back a slot and case modding the entire front panel and CD/DVD drive cage out as you can fit 3x 120mm fans snugly in the front mesh. I'd need to make my own fan bracket or buy one and mod it into this case, wouldn't be too hard to do just need the tools. For now I've just replaced the front 200mm fan and screwed 2x 120mm fans in the mesh. I've moved the HDD bay back to the mid slot infront of the PSU.

I'll run two benchmarks to confirm the before / after upgrade with the front fans and I'll flip the rear exhaust to intake.

Will reply post tonight.


----------



## wes1099

Where can I find used industrial fans for cheap? I checked ebay for Delta AFB1212's but they don't have much.

Also, are EK Vardar fans any good?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wes1099*
> 
> Where can I find used industrial fans for cheap? I checked ebay for Delta AFB1212's but they don't have much.
> 
> Also, are EK Vardar fans any good?


Ebay
Computer salvage yard
craigslist


----------



## bboiprfsr

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wes1099*
> 
> Where can I find used industrial fans for cheap? I checked ebay for Delta AFB1212's but they don't have much.
> 
> Also, are EK Vardar fans any good?


aren't industrial products, in general, high end and, thus, expensive, anyways? (sorry, wanted to spam commas







)

Try open products, used, or clearance items on newegg or amazon. Craigslist and ebay are really frustrating at times; you can be lucky or deal with a stingy seller, but I vote ebay to find good deals.


----------



## wes1099

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Ebay
> Computer salvage yard
> craigslist


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bboiprfsr*
> 
> aren't industrial products, in general, high end and, thus, expensive, anyways? (sorry, wanted to spam commas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Try open products, used, or clearance items on newegg or amazon. Craigslist and ebay are really frustrating at times; you can be lucky or deal with a stingy seller, but I vote ebay to find good deals.


I guess I will go back to ebay and use more general search terms. I might be able to find a local computer shop that has some used machines I could grab some fans from.

The reason I asked the question was because the op said something about being able to get them for $5 used.


----------



## wes1099

I was about to buy some Cryorig QF120 Performance fans but I saw these Delta TFC1212DE's on amazon for about the same price. Should I buy these or the Cryorig's? They look like they are similar to the AFB series but with PWM.

EDIT: I also found the Delta AFB1212SHE-PWM, should I go for that?


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wes1099*
> 
> I was about to buy some Cryorig QF120 Performance fans but I saw these Delta TFC1212DE's on amazon for about the same price. Should I buy these or the Cryorig's? They look like they are similar to the AFB series but with PWM.
> 
> EDIT: I also found the Delta AFB1212SHE-PWM, should I go for that?


TFC1212DE is rated 3.9 amp .. that is 4 times what a motherboard fan header is rated to handle

AFB1212SHE-PWM is rated 1.05 amp .. motherboard headers are generally rated at 1.00 amp. maximum load.

I would stick with the Cryorig or similar fans .. like PH-F120MP, Venturi HP12, Gentle Typhoon, etc.


----------



## wes1099

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> TFC1212DE is rated 3.9 amp .. that is 4 times what a motherboard fan header is rated to handle
> 
> AFB1212SHE-PWM is rated 1.05 amp .. motherboard headers are generally rated at 1.00 amp. maximum load.
> 
> I would stick with the Cryorig or similar fans .. like PH-F120MP, Venturi HP12, Gentle Typhoon, etc.


wow. Good thing you knew that because I definitely didn't. I will see what else I can find on Amazon. I have a bunch of Amazon gift cards sitting around and I need fans to go with the new radiator I'm buying.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wes1099*
> 
> wow. Good thing you knew that because I definitely didn't. I will see what else I can find on Amazon. I have a bunch of Amazon gift cards sitting around and I need fans to go with the new radiator I'm buying.


What thickness and fin count is the radiator?

Over the years the Gentle Typhoon is king. The new 1850rpm and 2150rpm PWM models give great preformance with low noise. PH-F120MP are about a year old now, but on 'normal' thickness / fin count radiators do very well too. The Vardar seem to be good, but still a few complaints about strange harmonic noise problems. Brand new Corsair ML series with meglev bearings may be very good, but it really too early to say. We need at least a few months of heavy use to find out.


----------



## wes1099

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> What thickness and fin count is the radiator?
> 
> Over the years the Gentle Typhoon is king. The new 1850rpm and 2150rpm PWM models give great preformance with low noise. PH-F120MP are about a year old now, but on 'normal' thickness / fin count radiators do very well too. The Vardar seem to be good, but still a few complaints about strange harmonic noise problems. Brand new Corsair ML series with meglev bearings may be very good, but it really too early to say. We need at least a few months of heavy use to find out.


This is the radiator - http://www.performance-pcs.com/black-ice-nemesis-l-series-240-xtreme-radiator.html#Features

It's specs say 13 FPI and 53mm thick.


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wes1099*
> 
> This is the radiator - http://www.performance-pcs.com/black-ice-nemesis-l-series-240-xtreme-radiator.html#Features
> 
> It's specs say 13 FPI and 53mm thick.


I'm not an expert on radiator fans by any means, but 53mm is getting pretty thick even with 13 FPI and need a good pressure rated fan to run single. That's my guess, hopefully @ciarlatano will see this and add his expertise.

The Gentle Typhoon 2150 or 1850 PWM or variable voltage are good choices, but are in the $20 each price range.
Another good fan is PH-F120MP. It's a 500-1800rpm PWM fan and is about $14.00 each.
Or Fractal Design Venturi HP-12 PWM 400-1800rpm fan for about $15.00 each.

Thermalbench has tested these and I trust his test proceedures and resutls.
http://thermalbench.com/2016/04/18/fractal-design-venturi-hp-12-120mm-pwm-fan/3/

Much depends on maximum rpm / noise level that is acceptable. I like having fans that will do what I want at about 13-1500rpm, but have some additional rpm in case of needing to do some extremely high load applications on extremely hot days and if filters are a littler dirty.







Most everything I run uses 140mm fans now, and I've been know to use 600-2500rpm fans that never run above 1150rpm unless extreme combinations stack up .. and even than not above 1300-1500rpm.


----------



## mfknjadagr8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I'm not an expert on radiator fans by any means, but 53mm is getting pretty thick even with 13 FPI and need a good pressure rated fan to run single. That's my guess, hopefully @ciarlatano will see this and add his expertise.
> 
> The Gentle Typhoon 2150 or 1850 PWM or variable voltage are good choices, but are in the $20 each price range.
> Another good fan is PH-F120MP. It's a 500-1800rpm PWM fan and is about $14.00 each.
> Or Fractal Design Venturi HP-12 PWM 400-1800rpm fan for about $15.00 each.
> 
> Thermalbench has tested these and I trust his test proceedures and resutls.
> http://thermalbench.com/2016/04/18/fractal-design-venturi-hp-12-120mm-pwm-fan/3/
> 
> Much depends on maximum rpm / noise level that is acceptable. I like having fans that will do what I want at about 13-1500rpm, but have some additional rpm in case of needing to do some extremely high load applications on extremely hot days and if filters are a littler dirty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most everything I run uses 140mm fans now, and I've been know to use 600-2500rpm fans that never run above 1150rpm unless extreme combinations stack up .. and even than not above 1300-1500rpm.


the mass cool blue led fans i bought twn years ago were 2800 rpms...sounded like a jet taking off...and moved about as much air as the phanteks fans at 1000 rpms lol


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfknjadagr8*
> 
> the mass cool blue led fans i bought twn years ago were 2800 rpms...sounded like a jet taking off...and moved about as much air as the phanteks fans at 1000 rpms lol


You mean the pretty blue LEDs didn't improve performance while lowering noise levels? They must have been defect LEDs.


----------



## mfknjadagr8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> You mean the pretty blue LEDs didn't improve performance while lowering noise levels? They must have been defect LEDs.


yeah but they had a sweet racing sticker that added 25cfm lol


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfknjadagr8*
> 
> yeah but they had a sweet racing sticker that added 25cfm lol


Yeah, I tried that sticker thing and even put 3" twin straight pipes on my car when I was young. It turned heads, but not the girls I wanted it to, and it didn't run any better so i put the stock exhaust back on and pulled off all the sitckers too.









Put them on my tool box instead.


----------



## mfknjadagr8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Yeah, I tried that sticker thing and even put 3" twin straight pipes on my car when I was young. It turned heads, but not the girls I wanted it to, and it didn't run any better so i put the stock exhaust back on and pulled off all the sitckers too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put them on my tool box instead.


most of the time they run worse because the larger diameters starve the engine of backpressure...this is why economy cars have smaller tailpipes and why higher performance engines have larger diameters...it works both ways..too small it chokes too large it starves


----------



## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mfknjadagr8*
> 
> most of the time they run worse because the larger diameters starve the engine of backpressure...this is why economy cars have smaller tailpipes and why higher performance engines have larger diameters...it works both ways..too small it chokes too large it starves


So by you logic all racecars using straight pipes 'starve the engine of back pressure' .








There is no 'starve the engine of back pressure',. but there is a pulse effect created in both intake and exhaust systems. Maybe this is what thinking of/ This pulse effect is caused by piston and valve cycles. Using proper size and length of flow area in intake and exhaust does create a pulse in airflow that will 'push' volume into cylinder on intake side and 'pull' out on exhaust side. By using optimum size and length on intake and exhaust of engine develops a power band / curve that peaks at a specific rpm. Changing size and/or length increases or lowers this 'power band. This power band is determined by application. Generally it is quite high in race engines, somewhat lower for street use and even lower for serious work engines like commercial truck, agricultural,d earth moving equipment, railroad locomotives, and even huge stationary engines like used in shipping industry.

Using this pulsing movement of air flowing though the intake and exhaust to push/pull intake and exhaust greatly increases performance and efficiency of engines.


----------



## RnRollie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mfknjadagr8*
> 
> yeah but they had a sweet racing sticker that added 25cfm lol
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I tried that sticker thing and even put 3" twin straight pipes on my car when I was young. *It turned heads, but not the girls I wanted it to,* and it didn't run any better so i put the stock exhaust back on and pulled off all the sitckers too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put them on my tool box instead.
Click to expand...

..should have included clutch burning 0-60's and handbrake turns in their street... preferably when their dad's were trying to get a nap after the sunday roast.... THAT would have gotten their juices flowing


----------



## Delta Learner

I would like to know if the Delta AFB1212*SH* are too much, will I still be able to run them at lower RPM, I'm asking because I found them at 6$ instead of 15$+ for the L to H like mention in the guide.

Thank You


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## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Delta Learner*
> 
> I would like to know if the Delta AFB1212*SH* are too much, will I still be able to run them at lower RPM, I'm asking because I found them at 6$ instead of 15$+ for the L to H like mention in the guide.
> 
> Thank You


I haven't used these personally but have heard they will idle down to about 800rpm, sometimes lower.

Personally I would look for the PWM version if it's not too much more money.


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## Delta Learner

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> I haven't used these personally but have heard they will idle down to about 800rpm, sometimes lower.
> 
> Personally I would look for the PWM version if it's not too much more money.


is 4 pin interface always PWM ?


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## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Delta Learner*
> 
> is 4 pin interface always PWM ?


What is your definition of "4 pin interface"?
On fans a 4-pin plug is almost always PWM.
On motherboards a 4-pin header is often not PWM. The only motherboard 4-pin fan header that is generally PWM is the CPU-fan header. As often as not all others have no PWM signal on pin-4.

Newer high-end motherboards tend to have more 4-pin headers that are PWM controlled, but it can be hard to sort out fact from advertising fiction .. and sometimes they even lie (and say it's a mistake) in the manuals showing headers as being PWM controlled with PWM on pin-4 when there is no PWM signal on pin-4.







At least now we have enough users who know what PWM is, how to check headers and using the different motherboards that we can figure out exactly what the motherboard headers really are.


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## tosomax

Hi guys, what do you think about the Arctic F12? They cost only 5 euro on amazon and they're pretty quiet.
Unfortunately i can't find any number about static pressure. I wont put them on any radiator but i'm worried that even a dust filter could make them useless. They have 9 blades so i think the static pressure shouldn't be so bad.
I have to replace the original fans of my antec 1200 wich are too noisy
Thank you guys


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## doyll

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tosomax*
> 
> Hi guys, what do you think about the Arctic F12? They cost only 5 euro on amazon and they're pretty quiet.
> Unfortunately i can't find any number about static pressure. I wont put them on any radiator but i'm worried that even a dust filter could make them useless. They have 9 blades so i think the static pressure shouldn't be so bad.
> I have to replace the original fans of my antec 1200 wich are too noisy
> Thank you guys


They are quite good, especially considering how reasonably priced they are.
ehume did a fan Vortez review back in 2012 that is quite good. Arctic F12 is in it.
He rates the TY-140 as one of the very best 140mm fans there is. Everyone who has or is using TY-140, TY-147, TY-147A, and a few other varients likes them. Arctic F12 performs about the same. 1/3 of the way down this chart are TY-140 & Arctic 12 one after the other.
http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/120mm_and_140mm_fan_comparison,18.html


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## tosomax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doyll*
> 
> They are quite good, especially considering how reasonably priced they are.
> ehume did a fan Vortez review back in 2012 that is quite good. Arctic F12 is in it.
> He rates the TY-140 as one of the very best 140mm fans there is. Everyone who has or is using TY-140, TY-147, TY-147A, and a few other varients likes them. Arctic F12 performs about the same. 1/3 of the way down this chart are TY-140 & Arctic 12 one after the other.
> http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/120mm_and_140mm_fan_comparison,18.html


Thank you very much


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## Vario

Been running a Yate Loon D14BH12 PWM that I bought on eBay for $12, pretty awesome ball bearing 140mm fan with 4 pin PWM that can run at 1000 RPM silent. Usually noise tolerable up to 1500 RPM. Supposedly At full speed it goes to 2800 RPM and 140 CFM with an ear shattering 48.5 dB! Doesn't sound that loud to me, but it does get loud. Most of the time it doesn't go over 1200 RPM in my system so I don't hear it.
Really happy with this fan for the money.







It's the OEM for the Corsair AX1200 power supply so it has a odd plug and wire color.

Anyway, I have this guy running on my motherboard's 4 pin case fan header. Its .7 amp. I don't know if that is too much for the motherboard, my research indicates 1 Amp is the max for most boards.


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