# [Sponsored] ROCCAT Kone EMP Gaming Mouse review - by Ino



## Ino.

*Roccat Kone EMP Gaming Mouse Review - by Ino*

The Roccat Kone EMP is the newest iteration of the Kone series, replacing the Kone XTD. It has the exact same shape as the XTD but features a new top of the line sensor (a derivate of the 3360 family).



http://imgur.com/ZOPga2A


Disclaimer: The mouse was given to me for review by Roccat directly.

*Boxing*

The mouse comes in a nice box, same design as all current Roocat boxes I believe.

What's included:
- Kone EMP
- Instruction
- Manual
- Some stickers

Box:



http://imgur.com/IoDCEvc




http://imgur.com/N6B1EaH




http://imgur.com/BRUAQ2g




http://imgur.com/t6S3KlR


*Weight & Shape*

Weight: 114 g
Height: ~ 42 mm
Width: ~ 75 mm
Length: ~ 135 mm
Number of buttons: 9 (including two tilt buttons)



http://imgur.com/6bSFBP5




http://imgur.com/lGeeDMO




http://imgur.com/QEmXhfS




http://imgur.com/y0J43EE




http://imgur.com/oRJJvOA


Comparison

G Pro - Kone EMP - EC1-A CL


http://imgur.com/XSlgaeN


G403 - Kone EMP - Deathadder


http://imgur.com/acSgJCv


Weight on my scale



http://imgur.com/FF3iOVC


Note: I was trying to take away the weight of the cable, if I let the cable just sit there it's 116g, so according to Roccat's official specs.

How I grip the mouse



http://imgur.com/qiBAPp3




http://imgur.com/kZcZml2




http://imgur.com/GnyOxcV


Of course shape is completely individual preference, so everyone has to try for himself in the end. The perfect shape for me might be horrible for others. So please keep the pictures of my grip in mind for comparison.


Spoiler: weight of components



Wheel 5g


http://imgur.com/LJ4Wpzk


PCB 22g


http://imgur.com/AhdZlwB


Small PCB 7g


http://imgur.com/VmTEitK


Bottom shell 20g


http://imgur.com/X1GL37p


Top shell 55g


http://imgur.com/rjivuNm


All together with screws 112g (my guess is there are rounding errors for the low weight parts, it's just a kitchen scale)


http://imgur.com/NO1uhIt





*Sensor / Performance*

I'll only post the mouse tester screen for the 400 CPI step, but rest assured it performs the same on the others too, at least in terms of PCS.
Sensor performance is excellent as expected.



http://imgur.com/aJVlMlD


CPI steps



http://imgur.com/2DsE7pv


Those are the steps out of the box.

CPI steps are very close to proclaimed values but the tendency is to be a bit above to proclaimed value. Looks very good.

Jitter tests in paint



http://imgur.com/ROqeLXQ




http://imgur.com/hML4BPN


All fine here too.

*Speed related accuracy variance*




Angular displacement in that video was as follows

-0.67, 1.31, 0.22, -1.67, 2.46, 1.38, 2.57

The method I use here is not too exact but the result overall looks very good.

*Lift Off Distance*

LOD is pretty low, less than 1 CD with the low setting. With the higher option for the LOD it seems to be just below 2 CDs, at least at 2 CDs I get tiny jittery cursor reaction.

*Software*

The Kone uses the Roccat Swarm software. I'm just going to focus on the mouse related setting options here and not go into more detail with the macro/profile managers or Swarm Connect for example.



http://imgur.com/tHMzh21


In the settings tab you can set your CPI level that you want to use, up to 5 are possible. In this example I used 400 CPI as my main CPI step and 1600 CPI for certain scenarios like tank turrets in Bad Company 2 for example. The software also allows you to conveniently set the windows pointer settings directly. You can also set sensitivity (which I don't see a need for as CPI is exactly that, a sensitivity setting), vertical scroll speed, horizontal tilt speed and double-click speed. I've left all of these at their default values.



http://imgur.com/K141iui


In the button assignment tab you can do just that, assign functions to buttons. You can also set one button as a dedicated Easy-Shift[+] button which then changes all the button functions accordingly. It's also possible to assign macros to buttons here.



http://imgur.com/fnJEJcj


In the advanced settings tab you can change polling rate, enable sound feedback for certain functions, change the LOD (distance control unit) which I was testing in the high setting right here and also reset to factory defaults. The lighting options are also in the advanced tab, allowing you to set the lights for the four LEDs separately and use one of four effects. You can also enable a color flow effect that will cycle through the color palette.

*Build quality*



http://imgur.com/d6knwph

The inner workings of the mouse, showing the PCB with the sensor, MCU and main switches. In the top shell you see the small PCB that holds the switches for the CPI and side buttons.

*Buttons*
All buttons on the mouse are really good, there is no notable pre-travel or mushy feeling. The main buttons have Omron D2FC-F-7N switches, all other buttons are either blue or red TTCs.



http://imgur.com/Gr0Cpjw

Here you can see the switch for the left mouse button and the wheel encoder.



http://imgur.com/cs1xujP

And the switches for the side buttons and CPI buttons.



http://imgur.com/ZdEGZdU

The click latency is also very good, compared to a current Logitech, which is the gold standard currently. In this comparison B is the Logitech G Pro and A is the Kone EMP.

*Scroll wheel*
The scroll wheel is great as on all Roccat mice I've tried so far. As seen above it sits in a TTC mechanical encoder. The wheel steps are very crisp and pronounced while being easy to scroll.



http://imgur.com/vUOdOnv

Here you can see the assembly of the wheel and the switches for the tilt clicks.

*Cable*
The cable is a relatively thin braided cable. It comes with all the quirks you'd expect from a braided cable, as in it is rather stiff and inflexible. I understand Roccats approach here as for years somehow premium mice were expected to have braided cables but aside from aesthetics they offer no benefit over a good flexible rubber cable. Still, it's at least the good version of a braided cable, not as stiff as say the one on the original Steelseries Kana.

*Mouse feet*
The mouse features two big feet, one at the top and one at the bottom of the underside. The glide is actually very good with them, very little resistance and a smooth feeling all the way.

*Surface*
The surface of the mouse is definitely one of the best I've ever seen. Not only does it look and feel like high quality, it also sticks to my hand really well, even during high speed motions. This means I can grip the mouse in a rather relaxed way, optimal for prolonged gaming sessions. I'm not sure what the surface is exactly, as it doesn't look like a coating.


Spoiler: Few more pictures of the PCB and the switches:






http://imgur.com/DirhaqZ




http://imgur.com/R7A2YgP




http://imgur.com/SuSPO3m





*Conclusion*

The Roccat Kone EMP is probably one of the best palm grip mice I've laid my hands on so far when judging by shape alone, and I've tried quite a few. For my hand size its contours fit perfectly for a relaxed yet steady grip.

The only downside that would keep me from using it more is that it's clearly out of my preferred weight range with 116g. This however might not be an issue to others who use higher sensitivities and don't have to throw the mouse around as much as I do.

If the weight is not an issue for you and you're looking for a palm grip mouse with lots of customization options, highest quality and optimal performance then there is no need to look further.

EDIT: I forgot the disclaimer... added up top


----------



## vanir1337

Thanks for yet another great review, Ino! I'm wondering why aren't they using the same encoder as in the KPM / Kone 2017? Can't they make the scrollwheel tiltable with that?


----------



## Tarinth

I waited for your review to see if it is easily possible to lower the weight. Seems like not... feelsbadman :^(
As i mentioned while we played OverWatch together (both of us with the EMP): with your sens my wrist would break with this brick. For me it's OK but still to heavy to use it as my daily driver.


----------



## ncck

Did you test other mouse pads? I feel the weight will feel worse on the gsr because it's a slower pad. For example I put say a g900 or rival 300 on a smoother pad and it makes the weight feel much better simply because the effort to glide decreases

Good review. Not a fan of the software having changes to Windows pointer settings inside though. Other features look nice. Looks very jam packed.

edit: I'm stupid, you wrote the default steps already! (400/800/1600/3200)


----------



## Ryusaki

Thanks for the nice review shame on the weight and shape ( personally)


----------



## Tarinth

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Did you test other mouse pads? I feel the weight will feel worse on the gsr because it's a slower pad. For example I put say a g900 or rival 300 on a smoother pad and it makes the weight feel much better simply because the effort to glide decreases
> 
> Good review. Not a fan of the software having changes to Windows pointer settings inside though. Other features look nice. Looks very jam packed. Any idea what the defaults were for dpi/Hz?


I used it on a Mionix Alioth.

400 / 800 / 1200 /1600 / 3200 DPI 1000 Hz = standard settings


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tarinth*
> 
> I used it on a Mionix Alioth.
> 
> 400 / 800 / 1200 /1600 / 3200 DPI 1000 Hz = standard settings


A great pad but still not very fast







Yes I saw the default steps after a second read-through.. my bad for missing it! What do you think of the weight/shape? Also how long did you use it for? You'll need like a month of usage to see if you can or cannot adjust. I know you said it's heavy.. but the rival was heavy to me then I became a robot with it after 1 year


----------



## Tarinth

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> A great pad but still not very fast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I saw the default steps after a second read-through.. my bad for missing it! What do you think of the weight/shape? Also how long did you use it for? You'll need like a month of usage to see if you can or cannot adjust. I know you said it's heavy.. but the rival was heavy to me then I became a robot with it after 1 year


On a hybrid or hardpad the weight wouldn't bother me that much, but i prefer clothpads. I assume you read my first day impressions in the other thread - if not, do it.







(tl;dr i would get a paracord and hyperglides if it were lighter and it would be my daily driver)
I used it a few days, multiple hours each day. I could tell that it's to heavy after the first day, since i got slight pain in the wrist. On this day i played 4 hours of OverWatch straight, which is pretty normal for me on a weekend, and no other mouse (never had such a heavy mouse - my copy weights 119g on my scale) caused this. And the shape still felt awesome despite that.


----------



## granitov

Looks like there's a trend at "branding" the Omron switches. Wonder what rating do they have, assume 20M.

As for the surface they say it's UV coating.


----------



## uaokkkkkkkk

missing sponsored tag.

anyway, i see they switched to another contract manufacturer.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *granitov*
> 
> Looks like there's a trend at "branding" the Omron switches. Wonder what rating do they have, assume 20M.


They were in the Nyth also.


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vanir1337*
> 
> Thanks for yet another great review, Ino! I'm wondering why aren't they using the same encoder as in the KPM / Kone 2017? Can't they make the scrollwheel tiltable with that?


You answer that question yourself, a PCB mounted encoder does not work with tilt, unless the PCB would also tilt...


----------



## frunction

Nice review.

If only with were lighter.


----------



## Koen3d

I really like how they've managed to incorporate full sized microswitches into the tilt wheel mechanism. Logitech uses tact switches to save space and it results in crappy clicks and low reliability.

I wish this mouse was 10-15g lighter (so still heavy but acceptable) because it seems great otherwise. I would even consider modding it to reduce weight but it doesn't seem like there are any unneeded bits to cut off.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Did you test other mouse pads? I feel the weight will feel worse on the gsr because it's a slower pad. For example I put say a g900 or rival 300 on a smoother pad and it makes the weight feel much better simply because the effort to glide decreases
> 
> Good review. Not a fan of the software having changes to Windows pointer settings inside though. Other features look nice. Looks very jam packed.
> 
> edit: I'm stupid, you wrote the default steps already! (400/800/1600/3200)


I tried it on the Roccat Taito too, and it was a bit easier to move it. The glide of the Kone EMP in general is really good, so that helps too, even with a slower pad. However the resistance of the glide is not what is holding me back, it's more the inertia of a heavier mouse it seems. It worked for the 2-3 hours I used it, but when I switched back to the G Pro right after it was like using a feather.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *uaokkkkkkkk*
> 
> missing sponsored tag.


Damn, yes, I always miss these because I do the write up in a google doc and copy it over, just writing the title for the thread last, typically in a hurry to "get this done finally"... Also missed the disclaimer this time :/
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koen3d*
> 
> I really like how they've managed to incorporate full sized microswitches into the tilt wheel mechanism. Logitech uses tact switches to save space and it results in crappy clicks and low reliability.
> 
> I wish this mouse was 10-15g lighter (so still heavy but acceptable) because it seems great otherwise. I would even consider modding it to reduce weight but it doesn't seem like there are any unneeded bits to cut off.


Yeah, found that design to be pretty good, definitely adds to the quality of the wheel, because the tilt clicks feel like real clicks and aren't easy to misclick.


----------



## Ino.

Also after looking at the insides I'm really surprised with the weight, because there seems to be nothing really heavy in there. Maybe it's a thick material for the shell that's causing it. I'll probably take it apart again tomorrow and weigh the components.


----------



## imdavidboss

What's the consensus on TTC switches? Never heard of them and wondering how they're regarded among everyone.


----------



## Klopfer

I often see TTC Switches as MWheel , CPI , and sometimes as Sidebuttons


----------



## lyrill

it's not replacing std for the last time, empowered is replacing 3310 (kone std opti) like every other brand, std lazer stays in the same adjustment to rgb/size/uv coating from old std lazer i bought when it came out,
or you can correct me if i'm wrong roccat


----------



## zestyy

Great review, would like to see comparison pics between this and a g400/g400s as it seems to have a really similar size and shape to that mouse.


----------



## khaine1711

Hmm is that a white g-pro Ino? Did you paint it or did you swap the shell with the white G102?


----------



## Klopfer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *khaine1711*
> 
> Hmm is that a white g-pro Ino? Did you paint it or did you swap the shell with the white G102?


he swapped it


----------



## khaine1711

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> he swapped it


I planned to do the same once Chinese New Year is over. Are the cable of G Pro and G102 the same? If yes then it's killing two birds with one stone - getting rid of the pesky braided cable and getting a white shell at the same time


----------



## Klopfer

g102/203 has more flexible rubber cable , g pro a bad braided cable








edit: Ino uses a ceesa cable , which are really nice ...


----------



## khaine1711

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> g102/203 has more flexible rubber cable , g pro a bad braided cable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: Ino uses a ceesa cable , which are really nice ...


I mean the connector to the PCB of the mouse. I've seen ceesa's cable - it looks sooo nice but international shipping will be devastating. On the bright side, the G102 cost like 20 bucks locally here


----------



## Klopfer

I dunno for sure , but I think ye , they're same , coz many people easily swap the g pro into the white g102 and using the rubber cable of the g102
edit:







and here I can get only a white via ebay ... sadly Logitech just sell the g203 in black


----------



## Tyler Dalton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *imdavidboss*
> 
> What's the consensus on TTC switches? Never heard of them and wondering how they're regarded among everyone.


In my experience, they are garbage. I had 3 Kone Pures fail on me and every time it was the side buttons that would start to double click. I am disappointed to see they are still using those same horrible switches for the side buttons in this mouse, which means it will probably be the same in the new Kone Pure 2017 as well.


----------



## Arizonian

Nice review ino.









Personally any mouse passed 95g for me is a pass anymore. If it wasn't for G900 being wireless I would have passed on it too and I ended up giving that up for my modified gpro in the end anyway.

EMP dosen't seem to have any major changes from XTD except with upgraded sensor really. Overall, still a worthy mouse to suggest to someone looking for this type of mouse shape, buttons, scroll wheel and where weight isn't an issue.

I'll be waiting on a new savu 2 possibly renamed to something like 'pica'.


----------



## MFlow

Ino,thanks for your review.
I'd like to write a mouse review, but I do not have time. T.T


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MFlow*
> 
> Ino,thanks for your review.
> I'd like to write a mouse review, but I do not have time. T.T


I do it when I have time. It's not so bad, the problem is you need a decent camera and video editing/recording if you want to do it properly.. also in reality most reviews are from using a mouse for a very short period of time. So most people don't adjust and immediately go back to whatever they perform best with. The downside of that is the review gets delayed and letting out a review too late for a product that just released is like missing a marketing timeframe

I think minimum you need 30 actual gameplay hours but even that isn't enough cause it takes 3-4 weeks for decent muscle memory. And one year for good memory.


----------



## Darylrese

Nice review!

I'm interested in seeing the lighting effects vs the Kone XTD...Can you do a video on it please?


----------



## Luminair

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/d6knwph.jpg
> 
> The only downside that would keep me from using it more is that it's clearly out of my preferred weight range with 116g. This however might not be an issue to others who use higher sensitivities and don't have to throw the mouse around as much as I do.


So the weighty parts seem to be centered over the sensor, which is good. I think the size and weight of a mouse are maybe not as important as having the center of gravity over the sensor, and your fingers around that. But we can also see areas where weight could be cut. There is a lot of PCB in there. Screws. And a big plastic shell with clear parts glued in, which probably means it's thicker to prevent breaking apart.

As an exercise in weight loss, we could drill holes all over the place and shave off a few grams. But how much weight could Roccat save by eliminating the LEDs, the clear plastics they shine through, optimizing the PCBs, optimizing the plastics front and back, and giving it a proper flexible cable? I bet there are 16g of savings to be had from the factory, even in a big mouse with so many switches. The Deathadder Elite is 105g without the tilt wheel but with LEDs and DPI switches.

Maybe manufacturers have reason to believe that big mice need this weight to feel good to the people who buy them. But after using a 93g EC2A it's hard for me to justify ordering a 116g EMP.


----------



## karod

Maybe you could get rid of the switches for the side scrolling


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I do it when I have time. It's not so bad, the problem is you need a decent camera and video editing/recording if you want to do it properly.. also in reality most reviews are from using a mouse for a very short period of time. So most people don't adjust and immediately go back to whatever they perform best with. The downside of that is the review gets delayed and letting out a review too late for a product that just released is like missing a marketing timeframe
> 
> I think minimum you need 30 actual gameplay hours but even that isn't enough cause it takes 3-4 weeks for decent muscle memory. And one year for good memory.


I agree.
Actually, I do not have much time to play games.
I'll Order g510 new product at discounted price after 1 hour
The original consumer price is $ 45
At the price of $ 25 I'll buy it
I think I'm getting more and more collectors.T.T
I will skip the emp and wait for the kone pure 2017. I hate heavy mouse.
The reason we can not have kore pure2017 at the same time is because roccat has negative thoughts on bringing out several new products at the same time.?


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I do it when I have time. It's not so bad, the problem is you need a decent camera and video editing/recording if you want to do it properly.. also in reality most reviews are from using a mouse for a very short period of time. So most people don't adjust and immediately go back to whatever they perform best with. The downside of that is the review gets delayed and letting out a review too late for a product that just released is like missing a marketing timeframe
> 
> I think minimum you need 30 actual gameplay hours but even that isn't enough cause it takes 3-4 weeks for decent muscle memory. And one year for good memory.


I don't agree completely. To see how well you can perform with a mouse, sure, you need more time to get used to it. But to see any shape troubles you just need a long, intense gaming session to see if there is any cramping up or sore spots coming up. Obviously the more time you spent with a mouse the better, but most shape flaws are immediately notable. These days I know within an hour if a shape is for me or not, but then I've also tried around 50 mice.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Darylrese*
> 
> Nice review!
> 
> I'm interested in seeing the lighting effects vs the Kone XTD...Can you do a video on it please?


Should be exactly the same as the lighting setup did not change at all if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Tarinth

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luminair*
> 
> The Deathadder Elite is 105g


Just FYI: On my scale the DAE is 98g while the EMP is 119g.


----------



## Ino.

Got the measurements now (also added to OP):

Wheel 5g


http://imgur.com/LJ4Wpzk


PCB 22g


http://imgur.com/AhdZlwB


Small PCB 7g


http://imgur.com/VmTEitK


Bottom shell 20g


http://imgur.com/X1GL37p


Top shell 55g


http://imgur.com/rjivuNm


All together with screws 112g (my guess is there are rounding errors for the low weight parts, it's just a kitchen scale)


http://imgur.com/NO1uhIt


I don't see any real potential for weight loss here, I mean you can butcher the mouse of side buttons and wheel to go down to 100g, but you'd have a two button mouse. The top shell seems really heavy in comparison, although it doesn't look that different from say Logitech. It might be the material?


----------



## JsBee

Does anyone know if you can buy this in the US yet? Don't see it on Amazon and wanted to try it out.


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JsBee*
> 
> Does anyone know if you can buy this in the US yet? Don't see it on Amazon and wanted to try it out.


Not available


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> The top shell seems really heavy in comparison, although it doesn't look that different from say Logitech. It might be the material?


Two suspects are ABS grade and thickness.


----------



## MFlow

I would like to know if the 3361 sensor is superior to other 3360 sensor series.


----------



## lyrill

20m switches are a big turnoff. how hard is 50m switches implementation.

not gonna buy this. back in the days when i use mice raw, i don't mind 110g, now i NEED to have pads all over and addon skates. like, NO, not gonna swing around 120g+ weight

you guys i posted the 4 month old pic, you don't need any fresh reviews to tell you how good the coating is, any coating or like uv treatment of abs will degrade in a matter of month idc how clean you keep your hand..

idc how good 3361 is vs 3389

For just the shape and roccat legacy my first batch xtd collection will do..with the 9800 as a sensor that I have with many copies but like zero hours..the package deal of dae with low presale price, a shape that 3988 mice i got used to many years, 50m switches, like again this is an issue of striking first. razer always strikes first among the major mice brands, logitech g branding is obnoxious(but then again logitech never was known for aesthetically pleasing), g403 shenanigans, so too bad so sad.


----------



## Cobain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> ...
> 
> I don't see any real potential for weight loss here, I mean you can butcher the mouse of side buttons and wheel to go down to 100g, but you'd have a two button mouse. The top shell seems really heavy in comparison, although it doesn't look that different from say Logitech. It might be the material?


The top shell is the core problem. It is thick and multi layered. It has these thick LED strips which have even an additional shiny plastic cover on the outside. This all is just for the optics. They should release a Kone Pure XL, which should be built like the Kone Pure but with the size of the Kone EMP.


----------



## JsBee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> Not available


Has there been a release date announced?


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JsBee*
> 
> Has there been a release date announced?


January 15th was suppose to be the release. However (which I kind of suspected) the NA release would be delayed. Amazon has the product listed so either the product made it there and the account lister of the product is intentionally not showing any stock (which you can do on amazon) or the product is actually not there yet. So basically all you can do is wait


----------



## granitov

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> The top shell seems really heavy in comparison, although it doesn't look that different from say Logitech. It might be the material?


Pure Military shell is thick AF compared to a few others (Sensei, the new Deathadders, Abyssus). It's also the first shell that I don't hear or feel creaking with when i grab it firmly.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *granitov*
> 
> Pure Military shell is thick AF compared to a few others (Sensei, the new Deathadders, Abyssus). It's also the first shell that I don't hear or feel creaking with when i grab it firmly.


Military or EMP? I mean "Military" wasn't typo?


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Military or EMP? I mean "Military" wasn't typo?


Xtd?


----------



## fourthavenue

gonna wait for Pure 2017


----------



## penskuzzi

Who is this mouse meant for? I mean there is no way any competitive players going to use it because of weight at least who uses low sensitivity. What it needs for company like roccat to make decent "e-sports" grade mouse?







Maybe next year then.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *penskuzzi*
> 
> Who is this mouse meant for? I mean there is no way any competitive players going to use it because of weight at least who uses low sensitivity. What it needs for company like roccat to make decent "e-sports" grade mouse?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe next year then.


On the other hand, weight is pretty much its only real disadvantage.


----------



## penskuzzi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> On the other hand, weight is pretty much its only real disadvantage.


I had read that they also have another model which is called kone 2017? I mean it looks pretty good with decent weight on it. I think its impossible to make premium mouse under 80 grams seems like. I liked KPM at first week of usage but then weight problem start causing my wrist cramp when using long session Deathmatch in cs:go with low sensitivity. Even though mouse suppose to weight only 93 grams but dam i couldn't get used to it after coming from FK2. Revel is my main mouse right now and it feels very comfy after coming from FK2.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *penskuzzi*
> 
> I had read that they also have another model which is called kone 2017? I mean it looks pretty good with decent weight on it. I think its impossible to make premium mouse under 80 grams seems like. I liked KPM at first week of usage but then weight problem start causing my wrist cramp when using long session Deathmatch in cs:go with low sensitivity. Even though mouse suppose to weight only 93 grams but dam i couldn't get used to it after coming from FK2. Revel is my main mouse right now and it feels very comfy after coming from FK2.


Define premium? If you're talking about sensor, it's totally possible to shove 336X into Lua shell and have 70g mouse. Not that Roccat would do that though.

KP17 is upgrade to KPM and Roccat said that they not only made it lighter but also rebalanced the weight.


----------



## penskuzzi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Define premium? If you're talking about sensor, it's totally possible to shove 336X into Lua shell and have 70g mouse. Not that Roccat would do that though.
> 
> KP17 is upgrade to KPM and Roccat said that they not only made it lighter but also rebalanced the weight.


That would be so cool if its really possible to put 336X to lua, it would be like NEW kinzu to me :0 but i can't remember hows sensor position on lua though, i'm so used to centred sensor right now.


----------



## Necroblob

Roccat Lua was a great mouse. The funny thing is at that weight and size it has very few competitors so if they threw in a 3361 I reckon they could corner a segment of the market.


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Necroblob*
> 
> Roccat Lua was a great mouse. The funny thing is at that weight and size it has very few competitors so if they threw in a 3361 I reckon they could corner a segment of the market.


There is still no competitors in kinzu clone area at all.


----------



## lyrill

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Necroblob*
> 
> Roccat Lua was a great mouse. The funny thing is at that weight and size it has very few competitors so if they threw in a 3361 I reckon they could corner a segment of the market.


yeah i've said this

small mice has a spot for everyone who wants to try claw grip, big mice on the other hand, like, you are not gonna click the very end of the button 1 and 2 if you have small hands no matter how you grip it lel

roccat should really strike first before anyone else, idc if they have slated many product coming out already, so is everyone else


----------



## granitov

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Military or EMP? I mean "Military" wasn't typo?


Could be wrong, but I'm assuming they're of similar build quality.


----------



## xmr1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I don't see any real potential for weight loss here, I mean you can butcher the mouse of side buttons and wheel to go down to 100g, but you'd have a two button mouse. The top shell seems really heavy in comparison, although it doesn't look that different from say Logitech. It might be the material?


That's the problem. Logitech's top shells are also unnecessarily heavy. G Pro weight should probably be in the 75 gram range for its size.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> There is still no competitors in kinzu clone area at all.


Well, it doesnt give much in return unless bottom tier.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *penskuzzi*
> 
> Who is this mouse meant for? I mean there is no way any competitive players going to use it because of weight at least who uses low sensitivity.


It depends, to me even the old XTD felt more like 100g in useage due to its size, it only impacted me on slippery pads, my gripe with the Kone however is the shape, specifically the right side.


----------



## lyrill

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Well, it doesnt give much in return unless bottom tier.
> 
> It depends, to me even the old XTD felt more like 100g in useage due to its size, it only impacted me on slippery pads, my gripe with the Kone however is the shape, specifically the right side.


i've tried all pads from icemat to a knife grinder and no pads satisfy my need for speed to qualify as :slippery:"


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> *Scroll wheel*
> The scroll wheel is great as on all Roccat mice I've tried so far. As seen above it sits in a TTC mechanical encoder. The wheel steps are very crisp and pronounced while being easy to scroll.
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/vUOdOnv
> 
> Here you can see the assembly of the wheel and the switches for the tilt clicks.


Thanks for doing this detailed and very TRUTHFUL review of Roccat's latest Kone Model and low and behold you mentioned the use of a *TTC Mechanical Encoder* for the Scroll Wheel here, so where is the ALPS encoder?

Was told point blank by all the SUPPORTERS and the Roccat Rep here on this site that it uses the very same Scroll Wheel encoder as the earlier Kone Models, yet you have suggested otherwise Ino. Why is TTC is usually used in most of the bottom tiered mice selling for $10 or less being used here on this quite expensive model?

Looking forward to your response here Roccat







.


----------



## Klopfer

ALPS Encoder is in Kone Pure / Military and Pure 2017, not in XTD/EMP


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Was told point blank by all the SUPPORTERS and the Roccat Rep here on this site that it uses the very same Scroll Wheel encoder as the earlier Kone Models, yet you have suggested otherwise Ino.


That talk was about Kone 17, not EMP. However i don't see the reason why not to put ALPS in EMP as well.


----------



## Elrick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Klopfer*
> 
> ALPS Encoder is in Kone Pure / Military and Pure 2017, not in XTD/EMP


Ohh righttt, so now we'll hop, skip and jump about on the models, which MIGHT be using the ALPs scroller?

Nice move Roccat, slowly trying your best to dilute the reasons why you went cheap on the hardware while pretending to still support the widespread use of the humble ALPs encoder here. Maybe you did learn something from the accountants and marketing crew.

Although it may spell the end of your reign when you start using sub standard internal hardware, yet have the nerve to charge high prices for it.


----------



## Klopfer

the XTD never used an ALPS .... the EMP was also not claimed that it uses an ALPS ...
the Kone Pure and Kone Pure Military use an ALPS ... it was asked if "they" use the same ALPS , they said yes, the Kone Pure 2017 will use the same Encoder ( ALPS ) as preview Kone Pure Versions ...
so whats the prob?


----------



## Argowashi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Although it may spell the end of your reign when you start using sub standard internal hardware, yet have the nerve to charge high prices for it.


Just like Logitech and Zowie then?


----------



## InspiredSkye

Hello Ino, first let me thank you for this detailed review. I would like to know your hand size, since EMP's dimensions are the main concern I have about this product, being a pretty big mouse.
I would also like to make a question to Roccat users here: honestly, how are these products in terms of durability? I mean both the hardware/components and the coating.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Thanks for doing this detailed and very TRUTHFUL review of Roccat's latest Kone Model and low and behold you mentioned the use of a *TTC Mechanical Encoder* for the Scroll Wheel here, so where is the ALPS encoder?
> 
> Was told point blank by all the SUPPORTERS and the Roccat Rep here on this site that it uses the very same Scroll Wheel encoder as the earlier Kone Models, yet you have suggested otherwise Ino. Why is TTC is usually used in most of the bottom tiered mice selling for $10 or less being used here on this quite expensive model?
> 
> Looking forward to your response here Roccat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I think someone else also asked this already and they said it's because of the tilt wheel design, the Alps aren't compatible with it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *InspiredSkye*
> 
> Hello Ino, first let me thank you for this detailed review. I would like to know your hand size, since EMP's dimensions are the main concern I have about this product, being a pretty big mouse.
> I would also like to make a question to Roccat users here: honestly, how are these products in terms of durability? I mean both the hardware/components and the coating.


My hand size is 20cm wrist to middle finger tip and 9cm across the palm.
The Roccat move that I had all had a high quality and a premium feel to them, although I only used the Savu for a long time and had no trouble with its durability.


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ino.*
> 
> I think someone else also asked this already and they said it's because of the tilt wheel design, the Alps aren't compatible with it.
> My hand size is 20cm wrist to middle finger tip and 9cm across the palm.
> The Roccat move that I had all had a high quality and a premium feel to them, although I only used the Savu for a long time and had no trouble with its durability.


The Kone/Kone+/Kone XTD/Kone EMP has a 4d wheel and use TTC.

All Roccat mice with 2d wheel use ALPS encoders (with slight variations in used model).


----------



## Tarinth

I sent mine back already. Couldn't stand the heavy weight...
But besides the weight this thing is super nice and i would recommend it. :^)


----------



## granitov

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skar*
> 
> All Roccat mice with 2d wheel use ALPS encoders (with slight variations in used model).


What are those variations? So far the only ALPS encoder I've seen (9mm that is) is typical EC10E. The only varying point is the lettering - J, H, N and whichever else.

These encoders seem to have certain tolerances, though, as I've come across both quite noisy and almost silent ones (that's judging by the encoder itself, not taking the mouse shell and wheel construction into consideration).


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *granitov*
> 
> What are those variations? So far the only ALPS encoder I've seen (9mm that is) is typical EC10E. The only varying point is the lettering - J, H, N and whichever else.
> 
> These encoders seem to have certain tolerances, though, as I've come across both quite noisy and almost silent ones (that's judging by the encoder itself, not taking the mouse shell and wheel construction into consideration).


The detent torque force and its tolerance is different.


----------



## granitov

*Skar*, is there any info on which lettering designates the tightest tolerances? The cost is pretty much the same everywhere, but different sellers supply different versions.


----------



## Skar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *granitov*
> 
> *Skar*, is there any info on which lettering designates the tightest tolerances? The cost is pretty much the same everywhere, but different sellers supply different versions.


If this is crucial for you please pm me.


----------



## ROCCATstudios

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elrick*
> 
> Thanks for doing this detailed and very TRUTHFUL review of Roccat's latest Kone Model and low and behold you mentioned the use of a *TTC Mechanical Encoder* for the Scroll Wheel here, so where is the ALPS encoder?
> 
> Was told point blank by all the SUPPORTERS and the Roccat Rep here on this site that it uses the very same Scroll Wheel encoder as the earlier Kone Models, yet you have suggested otherwise Ino. Why is TTC is usually used in most of the bottom tiered mice selling for $10 or less being used here on this quite expensive model?
> 
> Looking forward to your response here Roccat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


As already mentioned, this is due to the 4D design of the mouse wheel. With the *Kone* series you can tilt your mouse wheel to go left and right. The Kone Pure 2017 is only a 2D design and is still using the ALPS encoder like in the previous *Kone Pure* models.

So relax and have a nice week


----------



## Luminair

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cobain*
> 
> The top shell is the core problem. It is thick and multi layered. It has these thick LED strips which have even an additional shiny plastic cover on the outside. This all is just for the optics.
> 
> They should release a Kone Pure XL, which should be built like the Kone Pure but with the size of the Kone EMP.


This! Bring the EMP down to 100g!


----------



## lyrill

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skar*
> 
> The Kone/Kone+/Kone XTD/Kone EMP has a 4d wheel and use TTC.
> 
> All Roccat mice with 2d wheel use ALPS encoders (with slight variations in used model).


truth has spoken, now we shall know deep reason behind why "titan wheel" is hated by those who hate marketing


----------



## arandomguy

Don't know if this has been asked but what exactly is the "sensitivity" option in the Swarm software adjusting?


----------



## HungryPillow

Does Roccat or any other brand have a mouse based on the 3360 sensor that's a little bigger than the Kone Pure but a little smaller and lighter than the EMP? I have the older versions of both of these mice and like them a lot but one is a little too big and one is a little too small...


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HungryPillow*
> 
> Does Roccat or any other brand have a mouse based on the 3360 sensor that's a little bigger than the Kone Pure but a little smaller and lighter than the EMP? I have the older versions of both of these mice and like them a lot but one is a little too big and one is a little too small...


Not from the looks of it, KP would be the small one and EMP would be the larger one.. no inbetween yet


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HungryPillow*
> 
> Does Roccat or any other brand have a mouse based on the 3360 sensor that's a little bigger than the Kone Pure but a little smaller and lighter than the EMP? I have the older versions of both of these mice and like them a lot but one is a little too big and one is a little too small...


In fact, a new lineup with weight and size between emp and kp2017 is needed.
Many people have wanted it, but roccat does not listen to the needs of customers.


----------



## lyrill

yeah sorry now i', on the side of that, as much as i disagree with 91% 100% being stark differences, i could use a 95% myself, but this is just hypothesis by about now, and judging from the dae size and weight


----------



## TrancePlant

Just tried this mouse. I like everything about it apart from the weight. Oh well..Back to my revel.


----------



## MFlow

I know that's only problem.
It will eventually become unused.
A waste of money.....so sad?


----------



## ncck

So the consensus is good mouse but too heavy for use? I notice with big mice verticality movements are a problem or is that more related to sensors positions being far back. I'm starting to think forward positions are best when you need to make wrist motions.. even some arm

edit: I could be completely wrong about the above though.. some large mice I can aim vertically with - but not sure if that comes down to shape or sensor position.. Nooo idea.

Any idea when this comes to amazon?


----------



## MFlow

It's a matter of complexity rather than a problem caused by being a big mouse.
Especially in ergonomic mice where sensors are located on the bottom plate.
The reason for mentioning the weight is because there are relatively many people who prefer light weight mice.
The three new roccats are very different in weight.Rather, the roccat would have been better off putting the emp in a low weight and putting weight adjustment options like xtd.
88....116.125g ?


----------



## ncck

Well I don't know I used the rival 300 for years and it was fairly heavy weight - but I think the slimmer front ward shape and forward sensor position made it a bit easier to make vertical movements. I still haven't been able to try out this EMP so I don't know how I'd fair with it. And I already know I can't use the KP as it's simply too small.. ZA12 is about the smallest I could use and even then that's pushing it


----------



## MFlow

Well, if you're talking about your personal preferences, people might have a mouse that weighs over 150 grams, such as a mouse that is bigger than a rival 700.
If roccat released emp by putting the weight change option like the previous xtd and reducing the weight a lot, roccat could have accommodated more users.
For reference, distributors in Korea had recruited 20 emp reservation buyers, but it took a lot of time..On the other hand, 2017is unpredictable.
Maybe it's hard to make a reservation.?


----------



## lyrill

get your facts straight,both xtd and emp launched NOT YESTERDAY , weight adjustment added unwanted weight, this was as light as it goes. according to roccat, you have better luck telling them to toss the chroma


----------



## MFlow

I won't tell it to Roccat
I already know the stickiness of a German manufacturer. However, I would like roccat take a look at this article and consider the weight gap between roccat flagship models.
And what I meant to say was not the weight control, but the weight gap between the mainstream models.

Sales will tell roccat.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MFlow*
> 
> The reason for mentioning the weight is because there are relatively many people who prefer light weight mice.


Thats why G502 was such a Top Seller, what you rather hear from my experience is "It could be lighter but its fine/i dont care.".


----------



## arandomguy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Thats why G502 was such a Top Seller, what you rather hear from my experience is "It could be lighter but its fine/i dont care.".


We should consider that the G502 debuted the 336x line of sensors and have exclusivity for quite awhile, so for along time it was people just trying to justify sticking with the sensor despite the weight. It later had to compete with the expensive wireless G900 (would be less popular due to price) and the polarizing G303 shape. It wasn't until the end of last year where more wide availability of 336x mice in lightweight and more generic shapes appeared.

The G502 also appeals to the more mainstream market as it has a lot of buttons and functionality such as the tilt/free scroll wheel which justified the weight to those people. If we look at mice with those functions it isn't all that heavy comparatively, but just towards the more basic function FPS oriented mice with standard wheels and buttons configs.


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> Thats why G502 was such a Top Seller, what you rather hear from my experience is "It could be lighter but its fine/i dont care.".


The g502 is an early model with a 3366 sensor.
At that time, it was also the only ergonomic mouse of the 3366 sensor mouse, and many people had to buy it, and many people complained of wrist pain.
Now the sales volume will be less than g pro g403
When is the top seller? If you think that the top sellers are meaningless when there are no competitors, I will give up.


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MFlow*
> 
> The g502 is an early model with a 3366 sensor.
> At that time, it was also the only ergonomic mouse of the 3366 sensor mouse, and many people had to buy it, and many people complained of wrist pain.
> Now the sales volume will be less than g pro g403
> When is the top seller? If you think that the top sellers are meaningless when there are no competitors, I will give up.


And?

Nobody had to buy it, the majority of people is fine and according to Chris it seems like people wanted something even heavier, and the rest didnt care.

In SK? Maybe, though i rather think that the G102 would take that place. Everywhere else, no.

You need to rephrase that, because i dont understand what you are getting at exactly.


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> And?
> Nobody had to buy it, the majority of people is fine and according to Chris it seems like people wanted something even heavier, and the rest didnt care.
> In SK? Maybe, though i rather think that the G102 would take that place. Everywhere else, no.
> You need to rephrase that, because i dont understand what you are getting at exactly.


Those looking for an ergonomic mouse with a 3360 or 3366 sensor did not have a choice at the time.
That's why the g502 became a top seller.
I also admit that g502 has good performance.
If you do not know what I want to say, slowly read what I wrote above.
Sorry for my poor english


----------



## xmr1

I'm pretty sure the majority of G502 buyers don't even know what a 3366 sensor is. It was/is popular for other reasons.


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> I'm pretty sure the majority of G502 buyers don't even know what a 3366 sensor is. It was/is popular for other reasons.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xmr1*
> 
> I'm pretty sure the majority of G502 buyers don't even know what a 3366 sensor is. It was/is popular for other reasons.


If there were alternatives to choose from, it would not have been so successful.
The difference between kp2017, which is not yet released, and people's interest in emp, which has already been released.


----------



## Ino.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MFlow*
> 
> If there were alternatives to choose from, it would not have been so successful.
> The difference between kp2017, which is not yet released, and people's interest in emp, which has already been released.


Sorry, but you make the typical mistake of taking feedback from OCN as representative of the general consumer. It's not.
Many more people still go for mice with flashy design and lots of buttons over a lightweight performance mouse. Some people heavily prefer mice in a weight range of 130+ g because of perceived quality.


----------



## MFlow

What I'm trying to say is not that the heavy mouse is wrong.
It does not ignore people who prefer 110 g or more or 130 g or more.
Please read the article I wrote above.
Roccat's mainstream mouse
This is because the weight gap is on one side.

88?g to 116g. 125g
Kp2017, emp, leadr

I mentioned the need for a model between the upper weight ranges of the roccat.
For example, it's weight control options.

G502 is top seller?
Yeah, I know. Once upon a time it was a top seller.
It was a top seller before Da ellite, g403 came out.
Can anyone tell me the top seller of over 110g mouse right now?


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MFlow*
> 
> I mentioned the need for a model between the upper weight ranges of the roccat.
> For example, it's weight control options.
> 
> G502 is top seller?
> Yeah, I know. Once upon a time it was a top seller.
> It was a top seller before Da ellite, g403 came out.
> Can anyone tell me the top seller of over 110g mouse right now?


So basically you just want a ~100g mouse? Im sorry, but no brand can please everyone.

And Ino already explained the "why" to you, people care more about features than weight.


----------



## MFlow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woll3*
> 
> So basically you just want a ~100g mouse? Im sorry, but no brand can please everyone.
> 
> And Ino already explained the "why" to you, people care more about features than weight.


You do not have to be sorry.

Of the three new mice from Roccat, only kp2017 survived for a long time, and the other two products will be sold in the early stages.

people care more about features than weight?
That's when there's no alternative mouse to emp.
If we do not have an ergo mouse comparable to emp, as in the launch of g502, then your statement is convincing.
Now? People do not look at the features from the weight, and many people exclude emp from the purchase list.
Let us watch if emp is the top seller.


----------



## ncck

It can sell well - it depends on the gamer and how far the product reaches consumer wise

Aka if your mouse is on amazon, best buy, micro center, and advertised or used by some known streamer it will reach a very large audience

I have friends who use a g502 and they know nothing about mice - they just wanted a good shape for them with tons of buttons. Those of us who want light weights, no LEDs, high quality mouse feet, and yatta yatta are a very.. very very very small portion of gamers. Unfortunately I'll never get to try this mouse so I can't weigh in on its weight.. heh get it.. weigh.. ok I'll stop typing now


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ncck*
> 
> I have friends who use a g502 and they know nothing about mice - they just wanted a good shape for them with tons of buttons. Those of us who want light weights, no LEDs, high quality mouse feet, and yatta yatta are a very.. very very very small portion of gamers. Unfortunately I'll never get to try this mouse so I can't weigh in on its weight.. heh get it.. weigh.. ok I'll stop typing now


Have you paid attention to how these guys grip G502? Was it the dreaded full palm + fixed wrist position combination?


----------



## ncck

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Have you paid attention to how these guys grip G502? Was it the dreaded full palm + fixed wrist position combination?


Uh no not really but I'm guessing most of them just full palm


----------



## Xen00x

Just bought this one and really satisfied with the result. Had before G9, Kana v2 and G303. Was really dissapointed with new Logi mices, as my g303 after 10 months of usage started to unclick when holding L-mousebutton, also had lense rattle. G9 worked great for 6 years without any problem. Was very aware of the size, as it bigger than any other mice I've used. Only weight was not a problem as G9 was fine for me. Now I'am so happy that mouse fits well to my hand (18.5cm length) and my grip style (claw), sensor is great as in G303. Mouse feet much better than Kana and a bit better than G303. Build quality is awsome, no rattle at all! One flaw of new Kone is lighting system. Colors not accurate and color flow effect works really dumb, it changes colors not seamlessly, just like a blinking.


----------



## Koen3d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xen00x*
> 
> One flaw of new Kone is lighting system. Colors not accurate and color flow effect works really dumb, it changes colors not seamlessly, just like a blinking.


It's been like that already in the first Kone released around 2008 so it's sad that it's still an issue.
In general the lighting system in this mouse is supposed to make it look more premium and advanced but IMO it just shows that it's a compromised 10 year old design that wasn't that good in the first place. The black stripes are unproportionally wide, actual lighting stripes end 2-3cm short from the rear edge for no reason other than internal design compromises, and lighting is too bright at each end (you can actually see the light sources which is a big NO) and dull in the middle.
I think that both Kone Pure and Tyon (Leadr) look much more modern and refined without the lighting or just with the logo illuminated. It could also look great with lighting but it has to be done properly (Mamba TE or Creative Siege mice are good examples of nice lighting). Again, it's just my opinion so feel free to disagree, just please don't say that one could just turn it off and pretend it's not there because this feature is also one of the reasons why it's one of the heaviest 336x mice on the market.


----------



## imdavidboss

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> Have you paid attention to how these guys grip G502? Was it the dreaded full palm + fixed wrist position combination?


I still use the G502 all the time. 400DPI and kind of a hybrid grip I guess. I pivot from my elbow.

Gave my old one to a friend and bought a new one because I kind of missed the shape. Honestly, it never really felt all that heavy to me. Is it heavier than alternatives? Definitely. I use the G Pro to game and it weighs considerably less. That being said, I consider that mouse to be light, and the G502 to be a bit over average.

I hit global in CS, had above average RWS in ESEA, and hit mid masters in OW on the G502. It's really not that bad of a mouse if the shape feels good to the user.

I dislike that so many people hate on it though, so maybe I'm biased. People on OCN just think that because a mouse weighs a lot that it's bad. Is it desirable? Probably not. But the shape is so damn good for a majority of its users. Think of all the people on this forum that modded one to be lighter instead of choosing a different mouse. That's gotta mean something.


----------



## Argowashi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *imdavidboss*
> 
> People on OCN just think that because a mouse weighs a lot that it's bad.


A lighter mouse is superior in every way no matter how you twist and spin any arguments. And I say that as someone who used the original Ducky Secret for a long time (weighed like a tank)


----------



## woll3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Argowashi*
> 
> A lighter mouse is superior in every way no matter how you twist and spin any arguments. And I say that as someone who used the original Ducky Secret for a long time (weighed like a tank)


A good fit however alleviates the problem of weight.


----------



## Xen00x

Also noticed that Alien FX or Talk FX tab says that Kone EMP is not supported =(


----------



## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *imdavidboss*
> 
> I still use the G502 all the time. 400DPI and kind of a hybrid grip I guess. I pivot from my elbow.
> 
> Gave my old one to a friend and bought a new one because I kind of missed the shape. Honestly, it never really felt all that heavy to me. Is it heavier than alternatives? Definitely. I use the G Pro to game and it weighs considerably less. That being said, I consider that mouse to be light, and the G502 to be a bit over average.
> 
> I hit global in CS, had above average RWS in ESEA, and hit mid masters in OW on the G502. It's really not that bad of a mouse if the shape feels good to the user.
> 
> I dislike that so many people hate on it though, so maybe I'm biased. People on OCN just think that because a mouse weighs a lot that it's bad. Is it desirable? Probably not. But the shape is so damn good for a majority of its users. Think of all the people on this forum that modded one to be lighter instead of choosing a different mouse. That's gotta mean something.


G502 is one of the heaviest out of all high end mice. People dislike heavy mice because of at least 3 things: fatigue, RSI, inertia.


----------



## imdavidboss

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *M1st*
> 
> G502 is one of the heaviest out of all high end mice. People dislike heavy mice because of at least 3 things: fatigue, RSI, inertia.


Fatigue I think I can understand. Lots of movement with something heavier would cause this at low DPI. Although I used the G502 extensively for a really long time, the shape being comfortable and easy for me to move and stop hasn't ever caused me this issue. I've got a pretty locked grip style for it, though.

RSI would seemingly be related to their DPI being high, not the mouse, would it not? Higher DPI or sens would encourage more wrist aiming compared to pivoting from your elbow, etc.

By inertia I assume you mean it's high resistance to want to move from a stop? Or did you mean momentum or something like that. Since a heavier mouse would have more friction on its contact surface wouldn't that mean it's easier to stop once in motion? Perhaps some people like that, not sure.

Not saying heavy mice are better than lighter mice. Like I said before, I use the G Pro at home to do just about everything now and love it. I don't perform much better or worse with it since my switch from the G502 during the BestBuy Cyber Monday sales. Just don't understand why people here think G502 users are all idiots for using something that weights more, especially when I consider shape to be the most important part of a mouse.


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## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *imdavidboss*
> 
> RSI would seemingly be related to their DPI being high, not the mouse, would it not? Higher DPI or sens would encourage more wrist aiming compared to pivoting from your elbow, etc.
> 
> By inertia I assume you mean it's high resistance to want to move from a stop? Or did you mean momentum or something like that. Since a heavier mouse would have more friction on its contact surface wouldn't that mean it's easier to stop once in motion? Perhaps some people like that, not sure.


Yeah, i meant momentum, sorry if the term i used was misleading. During swipe to actually stop, heavier mouse would require more force applied in opposite direction and more force to make initial movement for same reason (plus increased static friction), and it's not a problem of fatigue as much as it's a problem of accuracy. To compensate for that people quite often ramp up their sensitivity to make same magnitude of movement with lower velocity. That leads to relying on wrist pivoting more and higher risk of RSI from that.

Using a heavy mouse at low sens comfortably and safely would require a grip style with close to no wrist pivoting, and that's not how people usually play from what i've noticed.


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## Peter Nixeus

Nice review - I had the Kone Pure Military that I used for a long time on my home gaming PC... is this the exact same shape and size?


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## Ricey20

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peter Nixeus*
> 
> Nice review - I had the Kone Pure Military that I used for a long time on my home gaming PC... is this the exact same shape and size?


The EMP is the larger version akin to the XTD. The Kone Pure 2017 will be the same size and shape as the Military and will be out mid april.


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## lyrill

by just having the led stripes already tells you what kind of company roccat is. can't argue with truth. truth that any mice with leds on it chose some form over some function.


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## granitov

But GPro has a LED stripe.


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## lyrill

but gpro sucks, what year is this why does any mice pretend its good stuff when it's too lazy to make any ergonomics as if it's just plugged off some library computer


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## granitov

Bet mice on library PCs don't allow tracking at more than 0.5 m/s speed. Decent build quality (at quite an affordable price as with the G102 case). And while I hated the shape as I can't claw it, I believe those who use palm grip and have medium-sized hands would love it.

tl;dr the argument is invalid.


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## Ricey20

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lyrill*
> 
> by just having the led stripes already tells you what kind of company roccat is. can't argue with truth. truth that any mice with leds on it chose some form over some function.


Pretty much anything PC related have RGB leds in them now. Doesn't mean they sacrificed any function. With how cheap and small rgb leds are nowadays it's not hard or costly, where they have to sacrifice something, to design them into anything and everything. And even before this RGB craze there were countless mice without rgb leds that sucked. I personally hate flashy stuff but as long as it's good I don't care.


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## M1st

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ricey20*
> 
> Pretty much anything PC related have RGB leds in them now. Doesn't mean they sacrificed any function. With how cheap and small rgb leds are nowadays it's not hard or costly, where they have to sacrifice something, to design them into anything and everything. And even before this RGB craze there were countless mice without rgb leds that sucked. I personally hate flashy stuff but as long as it's good I don't care.


The real problem leds pose is additional weight from light-conducting elements and whatnot. It actually might be the reason why EMP is so heavy.


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## Maximillion

EMP is on Newegg for anyone that cares.


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## ncck

2/17 for NA stock on amazon of the EMP


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## plyr

Big mice with 100grams or less pls.


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## killeraxemannic

Got my EMP yesterday. I'm a little new to the whole mouse sensor/weight game but I have been trying lots of mice recently and have tried some 3310, and 3360/66 mice such as the DA Elite & Chroma, Nixus Revel, G900, G403 and KPM. My hands are 18CM and I palm grip. For my hand and grip style the EMP is great but based on where my fingers hit the groves and buttons I wouldn't think you would want any smaller than an 18CM hand for it. As far as the whole weight vs accuracy debate I don't really see any issues with the EMP. You can tell it's a tad heavier than the other mice but I didn't see any decrease in my aiming accuracy in Overwatch and my accuracy % in game matches other 3360/66 mice I have tried. My accuracy seems the same with Everything except the DAE and DAC where I saw a drop of about 10% across the board. So yes it might be a tad heavy but I don't think it personally affects me. It will be my new daily driver until the 2017 pure comes out and I can give that one a try. I find it peculiar that my accuracy is just as good with the KPM that has a 3310 as it is with any 3360/66 sensor mouse. I wonder if the small size & weight plus the ease of manipulation due to the shape of the KPM make up for the inferior sensor, however that would be counter intuitive based on the fact that the size and weight of the EMP don't negatively affect my aim.


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## ElevenEleven

If I don't care about the wireless feature, is the Logitech G900 a better pick over Kone EMP or a totally different beast? They both have top-of-the-line sensors, similar number of buttons, different grip style (not quite sure which one I'd prefer, I don't have a set shape that I like--I tend to adapt to my current mouse and then see if its design works out or me in practice). Other than the wireless feature adding to the price, is the G900 worth 2x the price of Kone EMP?


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## Klopfer

are the skates now the same as on the pure?


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## Psycrow

What does the Tilt vertical options mean ? Is that the middel wheel ?
And what does Controle unit kalibration mean ? I dont get it


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## Psycrow

I find the clickers bad comparing the xtd mouse from roccat..its a huge downgrade..they are more noisy and has this wierd clack clack sound when you press the left and right botton with clap grip..it does that each 2-3 click..clank clank clonk it goes..crazy huh


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## jayfkay

finallly grabbed one for 20 bucks on ebay, excellent mouse. worthy replacement for a g400, probably one of the only mice I can comfortably palm equally well.


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## Jedson3614

Always a pleasure reading your mouse reviews.


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